Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never seen it.

Hello, and welcome to the podcast. It is such a pleasure to have you here from wherever you're listening all around the world. My guest this week is Joe Maloney. Joe is a singer, songwriter and musician from Melbourne, Victoria in Australia, and she's a mom of three boys. As a child, Joe saw any race platform as an opportunity to perform. It was his stage, and she would love belting out a song or two for anyone who was around. On seeing Olivia Newton John in the movie Xanadu. Joe knew it was the moment that she wanted to be a singer. Joe has enjoyed an extensive vocal career that started when she competed in local talent quests from the age of 10 singing country music and anything on a backing track that she could get her teenage hands on before moving to Sydney. After nine years successfully gigging the pub and corporate scene in a covers band, she relocated to London, where she eventually found work in a number of cover bands on a full time basis. This also took her in the direction of band management for a number of years. It wasn't until Joe moved to Melbourne in 2012, after 10 years in London, with three kids in tow, that motherhood really took over and became all consuming. It was when she turned 40 That she decided that she wanted to try a look at writing her own music after being inspired as a 14 year old. By a 16 year old Debbie Gibson song lost in your eyes. It's only been in the last four years just before COVID And now that her three children are older, that she really has decided to become accountable to herself and her dreams and put in 100% effort under the guise of dragonfly industry. Her music weaves together creativity, thoughtful lyricism and eclectic pop infused instrumentals, Joe released her debut single ghost last year. It reflected Joe's life of once believing that dreams are risky, and unattainable, and only for the lucky few to realizing that they can come true. The track gained attention from industry and core fanbase alike, winning the real songwriters of Melbourne community Award, as well as earning a top five spot in the real songwriters of Melbourne Song of the Year. 2023 We'll see Joe continue to embrace her development. She's set to release a self produced debut EP in late 2023, as well as a slew of new singles. Joe exudes the philosophy that it's never too late to explore your passions. Find your legacy, and live your purpose every day. Throughout this episode, you'll hear Joe's music. I hope you enjoy today's episode. It's the final episode in Season Three of the podcast

I know you walking through wilderness feeling lost on the ground, darkened scaly is a fever in chest cause you always

thank you so much for coming on. Joe. It's such a pleasure to meet you and put a face to the to the voice.

Thanks for having me. It's wonderful to be here Allison.

Yeah, it's lovely. And your whereabouts are you in Australia?

So I'm based in Melbourne? Yep. I just outside of Melbourne. Yeah, in Larabee. So I guess it's western suburbs. So

yeah. My nana used to live in hoppers crossing. Okay. Yeah, there we go. How long have you been in? Where before?

I only eight years. I'm not originally from Melbourne. I'm actually, I've kind of been all over really. But I guess I spent most of my childhood up in New South Wales, just south of Port Macquarie. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, really, really lovely spot. My mum and dad is still up there. And it's yeah, it's it's beautiful to go home. I wouldn't say to home, I've lived there for a long time. But it's beautiful to go and see them and have a holiday as well, because it's right by the beach. And so I've only been I've been in Melbourne for 10 years, but I've been in wherever for eight.

Yeah, yeah. But isn't Port Macquarie, like the place in Australia that has the most number of like really good weather days or something? Is that

salutely No idea. Someone

told me that once because we're I mean, Matt Gambia and the weather is just fair. I mean, you'd be familiar with that being in Melbourne. It's pretty Yeah. Yeah. And I remember watching one day about the weather. And they said, I'm sure they said Portland quarry had like, because I said, I just want it to be like 25 degrees with sunshine. Like, is that too much to ask? And they're like,

Yeah, I know. I don't think it's quite like that up there. Certainly not. Now. I think they get very, very hot and humid up there. Now. I think it's definitely a lot more humid than what it used to be when I was living there. So it might it may have been like that once upon a time.

Tell me about your music. You are a musician, a singer songwriter? How did you first get into music? When do you have this moment of like recalling when you sort of first discovered music?

Ah, I remember always being a show off. Right from sort of being kind of like three, four years old. I loved being the center of attention. And I think a lot to do with the fact that not only was I the oldest child, but I was the oldest grandchild on both sides of the family. Yeah. The distinct memory I really have is, every time I saw like a raised platform, I was singing, whether it be my grandparents balcony, or the front veranda of their house. So I can remember being in a shopping center and like seeing sticks somewhere. And I'd be on the steps thinking my little heart out because it felt like a page. And I don't think it was like, watch me, this is what I can do. It was just something that I gravitated towards. When I saw the movie Xanadu. That was the moment that it it clicked for me that I thought, ah, that's what I want to do. I want to sing I want to I want to just be this person that just sings and is beautiful and and I was obsessed with that movie for such a long time growing Yeah, absolutely obsessed. My, my whole family would still tell me to this day, how long I would spend swinging on a swing, singing Xanadu hours. The first time I think I felt like I really wanted to be a songwriter was when I was about 14 I think back in the late 80s. And there was a 14 year old singer songwriter named no she was 16 Sorry, Debbie Gibson. Oh yeah. And I fell in love with her song lost in your eyes. And I thought, Ah, I would love to play the piano and sing like that. And so I tried to emulate that for a few few years. And then I think I just got too nervous with writing and just fear of judgment. And so I just decided I was just going to be a singer. And I actually put away the songwriting for a really really long time and only identified as a vocalist. So it's only really been actually in the last three or four years that I've started who want more and think actually, I think there's more in me than just being a singer. And that was when I actually started to really take some writing seriously?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can totally relate to what you're saying, like completely. You it's like, I don't know, like, it's almost like life's happening around you, like you have your kids and you're growing up, and there's all this other stuff happening. And it's like, you sort of have forget that you have these skills almost, excuse me, that you actually used to write when you're a kid, and then all of a sudden go, why am I doing that anymore? You know? Yeah,

exactly, exactly. Yeah, because it comes writing comes from somewhere else. And singing and performing is such an outer thing. It's what's on the outside writing is what is on the inside. And it's learning. For me, it was learning to tap into that, because I had spent such a long time living outside of myself. And so that's been a whole new experience for me, which has been really, really exciting just to find my dip. With it all. And I still don't feel like I've quite gotten there yet. I think. I mean, no one really ever gets to that destination, do they? Where they're like, right? Yes. I've got it all

figured out. Yeah. But that in itself is pretty exciting, isn't it that you've, you're on this journey. And I'll make for one of the better word. If one uses that with you. And you're like, you're learning these things about yourself. And you're discovering more and more and you know, like, from what you're just saying there, you know, there's more there. And that's pretty exciting. Isn't that?

Absolutely. Yeah, it is it is. It's like going on an adventure. Yeah. And I try and use the word Safari because it can get pretty wild in there.

That's a cool analogy. Dude.

Cuz, yeah, stop, stop, stop. Stop, stop. Stop

with the music that you're writing. Now, what's your sort of, I guess your inspiration coming from?

Um, I think a lot of it is. From music theater, I've realized. I listen to a lot of music theater and a lot of power vocalists as a teenager as well. And I think I, at this point in time in my life, I think I try and write like that. Even though I don't feel like I have that kind of voice. It's just I suppose it makes it easy for me to concoct a story in my head and visualize what I'm trying to write about. So, yeah, I like to sort of think of it now as being a bit more music theory or music theater oriented. Yeah, quite dramatic. I think I have a bit of a dramatic voice very dynamic. So I tend to like to have lots of dynamics in my songs with lots of little quiet bits, and then really sort of loud. Yes. And, yes, so at this point in time, that's, that's the influence for me. And it took a little while for me to realize that because I was just writing, I was just writing what I was hearing in my head and not really attaching any label to what or any genre. And now the more I think about it, that's where it comes from, I think,

yeah, cool. So I think that's the awesome thing about writing your own songs, you can pick where you want the key to B, you can pick the range, and like you said, you can really like accentuate those like really exciting parts of your voice like using the dynamics that's something I've think's really cool even though it I think, clicked into right most of my songs in the same key

are so many people do and I I sometimes do as well. I think it just kind of puts because as being vocalist, you know where your voice naturally said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is it's a lot. It's really easy to fall into that trap of oh, just writing in D major. I

know it sounds good.

Yeah, that's pretty.

Good sled down

with a young

Do you have a day job or is music, everything that you do in your life?

Music, I'm very, I'm very, very fortunate that aside from mothering music is the other thing in my life, my husband, and has been insanely supportive of me focusing on music. Because he knows that's what makes me happy. And I, he, he actually wouldn't want me to, to go and do another job. Because every time I come to him and say, Hey, I've been offered this and I and he'll be just like, is that really it? Are you gonna have time? Like volunteering for my kids basketball, like to be the manager of my kids basketball team. And, like, seriously, it's not going to take that long and not take that much time out of my week. So he does get very quite protective of my music. Fear, I suppose you could say so yeah, I'm really, really fortunate that music is is the be all and end all for me, which is great. No hobby at this point in time. But I have I have done some gigs and earn a little bit of money from it, which has been nice. So it's just building on that.

Yeah, absolutely. That's the thing, isn't it? It's a it is a constant. Like you said, it's a safari, it's like it's an adventure.

So tell me about your kids. How many kids have you got?

I've got three boys. One wants to remain nameless. So I have Max who just turned 13. Last week this week. And I've got twin boys. So Zach, and twin one. And they are 11. So three boys.

Yeah. And a set of twins in there. Like that's pretty cool. in

there as well. Yeah. So for a little while. I had three and a two for about six weeks.

Straight. Oh, man. Yeah.

Thankfully, for that whole time. We were over in London at the moment that at that point in time, the kids were all born over there. Were in hospital for three weeks, my husband had the luxury of working for himself and was able to take time off to be with Max while I had to go into the hospital every day. And then my parents actually flew over for six weeks as well. So I think really for the and then my husband was able to take some more time off work. So for the first three months of the life, I had help around me, which was amazing. And then everyone's life just kind of went back on track. And I was at home with three little ones.

I can ask a question. So you had you had the twins, after you already had one child? Is it better or worse? Because some people have said this. It's better like their grandpa had twins first because I didn't know what they're in for. Is it better or not worse? Because you know what I mean? But what was the perspective? Yeah.

For me, obviously, I can only go by my experience. For me. I am glad that I had the twin second. Because I felt like Max was a really tricky baby. I felt like he never really settled properly for the first six months anyway. And you know what it's like when you're a first time mom, and the moment they're crying, you're thinking, what's wrong? What what do I need to do? Yeah, when I had the twins, I had no choice sometimes, but to leave one of them to cry. I be kinda you know what, you're fine. I'm sort of elbow deep in your brother's nappy at the moment. And I felt it was more about micromanaging the three of them. Yeah, right. More than anything else, but in terms of them as babies and me as a mother and then being second. I feel very fortunate that they were actually second because I felt a lot calmer and a lot more confident as a mum.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

So I yeah, I don't I honestly having I do remember one night and I tell this this story a lot to people where I think one of the twins had been crying maybe for two hours, they just wouldn't settle. And just as he settled, his brother decided to kick off. And so when you think oh, great, awesome, you're about to go to sleep. That's great. It's midnight. Okay. Yeah, I can go to bed and the other one kicks off and, and I remember being upstairs and, and they were still in like my baskets. Picking up the basket, trudging downstairs to my husband, who was feeding the other twin who'd settled and just been saying to him, I am so sick and tired of crying babies. I'm just sick of it. And there were definitely moments like that where I just thought it's just too much the feeding I at night time. I remember not doing as the books telling you to do where if you feed one child, one twin wake the other one up to feed. I remember just thinking, oh my god, I'm so tired. The moment you fall asleep, I'm gonna go back to bed but which was so stupid, because half an hour later, the other ones woken up anyways. So I've never ever noticed sleep deprivation like that i So even as unsettled as Max was as a baby. I certainly didn't have the sleep deprivation with him like I did with Zach. I couldn't talk. I couldn't. I couldn't string a sentence together. I was just that tired. And that was yeah, that was pretty tough. Even with help for the first few months.

Yeah, gosh, it's full on. Yeah, yeah.

That's it. And also managing, as I said, managing the three of them. I did a lot of reading about that. Before that came along. And you have absolutely no control on managing your children. When you're out and about we look like an absolute circus. Walking around. It was just me and this wall of children I had, I'd usually have Max and Zach in the stroller. And I'd had because he was really tiny when he was born I'd had strapped to me. So it'd be like baby on my chest. Two little ones in front of me and just walking. And it wasn't a like a front and back pram. It was a side by side. Yeah. Yeah, I was literally a circus everywhere I went. And so people would often stop me obviously, as they do they see twins, or I'd have both twins in the stroller and Max, I'd be holding my hand, people would gravitate to the twins. And it's initially and oh twins and Lincoln, Irene, which is fine. But inevitably they score. How old are they and books but always say that this is going to happen. And to always include your oldest child first in the conversation and say, Well, I have max here. He's too Zakka. Whoever meant sold, they were but again, people would then say to max, oh, you're a fake brother, Aren't you lucky, you've got twin brothers. And he's not stupid. He wasn't stupid back then. And he knew immediately that this conversation is still about them. And it's about me. So for that first kind of 12 to 18 months for Max was very difficult as well, because he just hated being stopped. He got to a point where I'd pick him up and he'd be grabbing my face. And he'd be saying, Go, go, go, go now go because he just hated it. Yeah, totally understandable, because I left out and what what can you do as a mother in that situation when other people's actions are beyond

you? And that's it. You're trying your best, you know, you're saying, you know, you're including him, but people are just still when, you know, twin land and all lost in our heads. And yeah, that's one isn't it for a little filler like

that? Yeah, yes. He

has he recovered from that, or does he still feel? Yeah, right.

Now, yeah, he not that he would understand just yet but I think there is a lot of trauma in him. He doesn't he he, he really sometimes is quite venomous to to one of the twins in particular. And he, I mean, look, he's a teenager now and he's going through teenage angsty sort of stuff. Very like me. I'm in terms of trying to be the black sheep of the family, which he is. And that's fine. But I do sense that a lot of his actions and a lot of what he says is some very deep trauma that, like I said, he doesn't even know exists yet. And also to, I think, I obviously was doing my very best to cope. But I was tired, I was tired. And so when I had Max in bed and wanting me to stay in cuddle him, all I could think of was, I need some time out. I, you're in bed now. And I need to walk away and just be me for a couple of hours before I go to bed. And I look back on that now and I feel terrible.

But but the thing you got to look after yourself, don't you? Well, you can't look after anybody say

absolutely, absolutely. My husband, very early on after having Max. Five weeks into it, I was sort of wasn't really sort of singing at the time, but I was actually managing the band that I was singing in and, and I remember being a band of I was the only female and it was blokes. And obviously, they're not really understanding what it is to be a new mum. And trying to juggle that and trying to juggle having my first child and I just remember just falling in a heat one afternoon and my husband actually saying to me, remember when you're in a plane and you have a child and those oxygen masks come down, you have to put that oxygen mask on yourself before you put it on your child. Otherwise, you're useless. It's like it's an oxygen mask. And even now, he'll still say to me, you have to put your mask on first.

And it makes my day just to know the aura around and it makes my day just to see your face, then a bullet in my body ricochets and it makes my day just to see you. And it makes my day just to know that you're around and it makes my day

in those those early days when you're in the thick of it. Was there any music was there an outlet for you.

Um, I was very lucky in those early years when I was in London. Even though I had no family around, I had an amazing support base with other mothers that I had met at a at an antenatal class. And they they were like family, I had a couple of other friends as well who lived a bit further away. But all I needed to do was just call them day and night if I needed to. And they they would do whatever they could to get to me. So I felt incredibly supported in that way. And because I had a really lovely network of other bands that I was working for as well, I was able to I was really lucky, I was able to actually pick and choose the gigs that I wanted to do so I was wasn't doing music on a full time basis like I had been. But yeah, I was in a really really fortunate position of still gigging when I wanted to gig. And I didn't have to travel very far if I didn't want to. So it was amazing. It was when I came back to Australia was when things got tough, and I did nothing. I didn't know anyone down here the two friends that I had, he lived right over the other side. So it wasn't like I was seeing them all the time. And it was me and four walls and three little babies. And my husband was working in town so he and he was doing long hours and they jet sack took a little bit of time to walk so they weren't really essentially very mobile when it came to getting out and about. I was going to a playgroup, but the playgroup the mothers, there really weren't the people, they weren't my people. And it was just something to do. And I set up a studio in the spare room, but I didn't really do anything with it at all hardly. And I think, because I didn't have the tools to write I knew that that's kind of where I wanted to head but I still had such incredible creatives create writer's block. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so I didn't know how to access that either. So not only was I not really accessing it, physically, I didn't know how to access it mentally either. So it was really tricky and it wasn't really until I turned 40 And Max It started school. And I wasn't doing any singing at all. I wasn't gigging. And I thought, right. What do I want to do? What? It's come to a turning point for me now? What do I want to do? Do I want to just keep singing covers in cover bands? Or do I want to explore something a little bit further? And that was when I decided that I wanted to start exploring, creating for myself because I hadn't done it for such a long time that I wanted. Yeah. It felt scary. And as I said, it felt wild. But I it was just kind of this internal pool for me, I think, yeah, to do it. But again, I didn't know where to start. And I actually started, I found I realized I wanted to sing in a choir for the walk. harmonies, and I thought, ah, actually, singing in a choir may write a bit right about now would be incredible. And I think it was back in 2016, the stars aligned and I found on the ABC News website, this new choir that had started up called Melbourne indie voices. Oh, yeah. And yes, yeah. And they've only just started, I think they'd started the week before. And yeah. had was with being interviewed. And I thought, ah, that's what I want to do. I don't want to sing anything like that. I didn't want to go there. The whole idea of singing arrangements of songs by independent artists, I just thought, ah, that's it. That's what I want to do. Yeah. And, ah, it was so much fun. And I met some incredible people. And Sofia and Joshua partner were just so insanely or are so insanely talented. And it was just lovely to sing, again, sing with people. And so I did that for a few years. And that also did start to encourage me to start writing as well. And I was getting lots of inspiration just from seeing what fear had created with her arrangements for songs and, and yeah, that's it, that was a real inspiration to get moving with it and start just looking at how I can start, what are the tools that I can find to get me moving with it? And yeah, and then eventually, I thought, I don't, I moved on from singing in the choir, I thought I just want to invest in myself now. And COVID hips, and it was for me, it was probably the best thing ever creatively. I was able to actually, the boys were great with remote learning. And we had some hiccups with with Max the eldest for a while, but that just yeah, that just really gave me a chance to start really exploring and just through the power of social media, meeting people and yeah, so that's been that's been it really?

Isn't it funny how things come to you at the right time? Like when you need stuff, and things just appear? I just love that. That's an awesome, yeah.

Oh, it's something that I think I've I've really become really interested. I mean, I've been interested in it for a really, really long time. But now I'm really delving diving really deep into it is like manifestation and spirituality and meditation. And I find that I have a really, really amazing routine now of meditating in the morning and journaling and object writing and really learning about and harnessing the sun. I'm looking for just harnessing the energy to create and to open up that channel and be the antenna and take all conscious thought out of out of it all and just allow something else to take over. So yeah, so I really have this huge belief now that and as you you've probably read and adapted yourself where yeah, when you when you speak something out loud. And you have a feeling connected to that. That sentence or that voice. It does. It's an antenna. It comes to you. Yeah, it makes it real. Now Yeah, absolutely. I've had too many things in my life occur that I have wanted to happen for me to think this is not coincidence. Yeah, at all. I've called this into existence.

Yeah. It's pretty powerful, isn't it? Like, I remember once I remember who it was, someone told me, because at this point, I was just doing gigs. I wasn't writing, but I was just doing gigs and doing whatever just sort of floating through not really, with any sort of purpose or whatever. And someone said to me, but what, like, what do you really want to do? What do you what do you what is your focus? And I sort of had to stop and think about it? Because actually didn't know. And I thought, well, actually, I'd really like to get back into my writing. And they said, Well, what do you want to sort of achieve with your writing? And I? And I said, Well, you know, I'd like to write a couple of songs, whatever. And they said, no, no, no. Think about what you want to happen. What do you want? Like, it was, it was almost like, visualize, see yourself, in this point, doing whatever. And I said, I'd really like to write some really good songs, and have someone that's going to produce them really well. So they sound really good. And it was just like, I don't know, I just something completely shifted in me. Yeah. And it's like, now I'm just about finished this album. And I'm so happy with it. Because it's just, I don't know, it just you Right? Like when you when you put it out there and you actually allow yourself to be open. And yeah, like taking away how it's going to happen. You know, necessarily planning things down to the nth degree, whatever, you just get clear with what you want. It's amazing. Like it is amazing. Yeah, blows my mind.

It does. And this is something that I'm trying to teach my children as well. So the twins responding really well to it. Yeah, Max, not so much.

Yeah. That teenage isn't?

Yeah. And I think also, too, it is, as I said to you before, I think it is a little bit of that trauma that's in him because he at this point, and he was always a happy child, I look at photos and he had, he was always smiling and loving life. But I, he at the moment has sort of is walking in the dark path in terms of the world is a horrible place. And there's nothing good about it. And human beings are awful to each other. And what's the point and, and so he's not wanting. And it's just the stubbornness in him as well as he's not wanting to respond or taking anything that I say about, well, whatever you look for, it's what you're going to find if you're going to look for the bad stuff. That's what that's what's going to present to you if you if you look for the good, it works for the good stuff, too. But at the moment, he's he that's not the track that he wants. And I'm not worried at this point in time.

Yeah, yeah, that's

part of his outlier kind of persona that he likes to revel in. And he's always liked to be that type of person who wants to walk to the beat of his own drum, which is amazing. Like, it's something that I want him to continue on. And it's, I guess, I was like, That is a child to, like, you can't tell me what I need to learn and think and do and you've just got to make the mistakes yourself. And eventually, something will click and I know that will happen with him too. And it's just him knowing that they're here to be the place that he can learn. Hmm Yeah, but it's it's true, isn't it? Yet you call it into existence, you become accountable. I think that's what it is to like when you're I think as creatives just what you were saying it's, it's almost like you and you've probably had loads of other people say this to you as well. You have to give yourself permission, don't you? Which is so stupid. To want to have those things. Yeah, to want to be the songwriter to want to have that album released and to know that you're just as deserving of that as somebody else. And it's not folly. It's not stupid. It's something that you really want to do so why can't you do it?

Yeah, yeah. When you say it like that it sounds so simple. gets in the way of that

it's actually yeah. I'm conscious. Mr. Something else I've been really sort of studying as well as is brainwaves and and how they affect us in everyday life. And why is it that when we're about to fall asleep is when the songs come to us and and I think from what the minimum minimal amount of research that I've done, I think your brain way seems to have a lot to do with it. When you're in a better state is when you're the most relaxed. Yeah. Yeah. When you're relaxed is when the ideas and the creativity come to you.

I find, like over the years, like, like you say, when you're about to fall asleep, but also, when you're in that meditative state where you're not thinking about anything in particular, I know how many times over the years, I did a lot of yoga. And I'd get up from Shavasana. And be like, Oh, I've got the best idea. It just literally. And I think, I don't know if it was Einstein that started it was the first person to talk about this theta state and your brain the way that your brain is, and you're just Oh, okay. I can't remember that just rang a bell. As soon as you said, I thought, oh, yeah, you're going to talk about the theta state. And for some reason, I've got Einstein in my head. But yeah, it's like, you literally change your brain. That's just I don't know, because that's the thing I've always, I always find so fascinating, is how you can literally just get stuff in your head, like, yeah, it just comes in and it and it doesn't just come in like one thing. It comes in, like an entire tune and all the words and you're like, where did this come from?

Exactly. Right. Yeah. It doesn't it so when, when I'll, so for my single that I released last year, and and people say oh, so what was the process? Blah, blah, blah. And when you when I tell people, it sounds so simple. It's like, oh, yeah, it came to me in 10 minutes. And it's the living daylights out of me, because that's not that's not what happens. Usually, when you sit when you write a song or create it, it doesn't always happen to you in 10 minutes. But yeah, it's funny how you could just be doing like the simplest of tasks, like sweeping the floor, or vacuuming or whatever. And I find actually hanging out washing, I get lots of ideas on a hanging of washing.

Yeah, yeah. It's like those simple repetitive moves that your body just does like that muscle memory. Yes. And then brains. It's like, a walking meditation basically, like, yeah. But your brain is in that other state. Because, you know, if you sort of switched off from that, you know, the consciousness. Yeah, I wrote a song about what it what it's like to write a song. Cool. music in my head. It's literally like, like, it just, it just comes to you. Like, I think there was something in there like, I could be walking or in the shower, or, you know, wherever and like, it just comes to me like, it's just, I find it amazing. It's the worst thing.

It is, is it and it is just because we're relaxed. When we try too hard. It's like we're just blocking ourselves and you feel it internally as well, don't you? You feel like your stomach's just, and your heart space is just gonna drip. Yeah. And it's open to receiving anything. I was watching an interview very quickly. On a real yesterday actually about Jack White, what you were saying about as creatives we are or songwriters, we are antennas only. And Michael Jackson said something about the fact that when we're creating we have to let God in the room. Yeah, and I'm not religious, but I'm very spiritual. And I get that I get that. We have to just let the energy come to us all. Yeah, you can't force

control. Yes, you can't. But as soon as you start to force stuff, it's like you're literally banging against that. Yeah. It's like, like you said, you close off. That vessel is is not a thing. Yeah. It's amazing. I love it.

I do I, I am I over COVID. I remember giving myself a challenge to write a song in 24 hours, I was sort of all about the challenges at the time. And because it was it was making me accountable. And it was helping me manage my time. And I already had a bit of the chorus anyway, but I didn't know what to put around it. So I thought, right, I'm gonna write a song 24 hours. And the next day happened. And I was just like, oh my god, I'm gonna write a second verse. It was that dreaded second verse didn't know what to do. And I was putting so much pressure on myself. And eventually I just thought, right, I'm gonna go for a walk. Actually, no, I'm gonna go for a run. And I went for a run and I came back and bam, there was my second verse. All of it.

I did certainly. Well, one time I was writing. Pardon me. I just went for a walk. And I don't usually take my phone with me like I leave at home because I like to not be distracted and I don't like to listen to music when I'm walking. I like to just appreciate the world and hear the birds and you know, whatever. Yeah, and I literally wrote the song. And I was like, Oh, damn, I don't have anything to write it down or Oh, no. So I was like, repeating repeating it repeating it repeating. The house was like Don't talk to me. Don't talk to me. Clearly good.

All right, good. Oh, I can relate. I can that's a hard relate there.

Yeah, it's, uh, I was talking to someone else on this podcast. Katie Callahan actually is a singer songwriter in in the United States. And we were sitting here. And like, sorry, like, in the middle of not the middle of the night, but that moment where you, you about to fall asleep, and you get stuff and you're like, I have to record that I have to get that down. And like she'd have a phone. And she'd like, be hiding in the bathroom something to remember. And then you listen back to it, and you let

that understand myself.

I've got so many little notes on my phone of just random. Random so or I'll whistle it or try and whistle blowing into the microphone. Oh, God.

Oh, absolutely. Oh, gosh. Yeah, I do the same thing. I'm like, I write down to the lounge room and get settled the same thing. And then as you said, yeah, the next morning and like, Yeah,

but that feeling when you finally get it down, and then you can relax is like the best feeling in the world. Like, I don't have to keep this in my head anymore.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I guess it's that that age old thing where like the tighter you grip onto something, the easier it is for it to slip out out every fingers. Want it to leave me?

I get like that sometimes. I had one the other day where I literally had a song in a dream. I was singing the song in my dream. But do you think I could get it back? No.

That's so frustrating, isn't it?

Sure. It was a really really good song to

cage that's around you. So locked inside there's a voiceless paradise to break them.

And then he's the stories of like Paul McCartney dreaming yesterday. And that's how do you do that? I

know that that's yeah, he's pretty special. I think he's awesome. I'm a big Beatles fan. But Paul's My face

is Hey, see, I was listening to your I was listening to the episode with Georgia fields the other day. Yeah. And I heard the conversation between the two of you and and, and I thought to myself, John's always been my favorite. Yeah. Even though I know is that of there are things that may be called into question. Like now by Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that he was very I liked the fact that he was quite controversial.

Yes, everything

was very clear on the statement that he wanted to make.

Yeah, yeah. He really pushed those boundaries. Sydney. Yeah.

And just did not give a shit. Yeah. Why didn't anyone else thought at all? But but then looking at at just the talent of Paul and watching that that. Go

back. Yeah. Yeah. That wasn't that amazing.

Incredible. And, you know, you knew that obviously that they were kind of like the perceived powerhouse of the the writing side of things. But just to watch Paul, direct everybody. And it's almost like if he wasn't there. Yeah, they would just kind of be floating around and he was the focus. He was the one that was able to go right. Come on. Let's

let's I tell you what, when I watched that, I watched it. And I just sat there thinking How the hell did these plugs ever get anything done? Because the amount of stuffing around I said to my husband, it's a miracle we've ever got any Beatles records because I know. Sometimes I thought, like you'd guys like I'm watching it like, you know, I've never seen footage like that, that extended footage, you know, just no learning, you know, not just cut out the nice bits or the productive bits, but just everything. It was like, holy moly. Like, I don't know, it just it really. I've just thought well, you got it friggin and then you've got Ringo sitting there on the drums virtually stoned out of his brain every day. Like,

are we doing something now? Like I know exactly like

him. I think but yeah, I think to like, when I was younger, before, you know, as you know, you sort of think as you grow up, you get more mature and you can understand people more, and you have more perspective, whatever. I was always really cross at Yokote. But the older I got, I just thought it was inevitable that they were going to part ways like I honestly was a miracle they did as much as they did together. Because yeah, I was so opposite. Like, the more that John basically enlightened himself. And the more that he was able to explore that there's no way he could have stayed with Paul. You know, it just made sense. And yeah, so I think any crutches anymore?

Oh, absolutely. No, no, if

you're listening, okay. Good.

No, I 100% agree. And I think that just kind of, as you said, it comes with maturity and your own experiences as well. And understanding Oh, hang on a second. We, we aren't always the same person as we go through life. Yeah, and there are some people that we will remain in our lives, but potentially will remain in our lives in a different way or Yeah, so yeah, you do understand exactly what happened there.

It was literally like, yeah, like a couple that grew apart. You know, like, yeah, that was it. But it did freak me out a bit. How she was just sitting right there when they were playing. No, I sort of felt that was, uh, yeah. I sort of and she was

really sort of putting her two cents worth in from time to time who wasn't she

was quite interesting. Yeah. I didn't like it. She hadn't been derangement.

Yeah, I say, yeah. You had an inducement come in. Yeah. And she was the polar opposite. She's just sort of like this breath of fresh air that was just quite happy just to sort of sit there and have a chat and understand that it was Paul.

Yeah. The space. Yeah, I think she's a creative, you know, with that photography side of things. So I think she got that. Boundaries, perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. Saying that Yoko is quite creative herself. I don't know. Maybe it was a cultural thing. I don't know. Now. I'm just, you know, making judgments about people that I have no idea.

Anyway. Conntrack

not what do you have to ask what's your favorite Beatles album?

I think it's Abbey Road. Yeah, right. Yeah. It was probably the first exposure that I had to The Beatles. When I was young mum, mum, my mum had the album. And I used to love listening to octopuses garden. Yeah, love, love, love that as a kid. But as I got older, when I was a teenager, I really got into them as well. And I just I did like the fact that it was very two distinctive writing styles. Very much. John side and Paul side and, and my favorite part actually, in the whole album is Maxwell's silver hammer.

I'm so glad you say that. That is my favorite.

Because we actually used to think some of the Beatles songs to the boys. So we'd always sing, bang, bang Maxwell's silver hammer or Max's silver hammer. We would sing to Zack get sack. So it made me actually seem it made me listen to Maxwell's silver hammer quite intensely at a point in time. And there's this little moment. I think it's in the third second or the third verse. Paul singing it and you actually hear him laugh?

Yes. Yeah.

Have you heard that? Yes. You can just imagine. Yeah. What is the clowning around in the control room? Trying to make him laugh?

Yeah. Oh, yes. I know. It's funny. Paul does that every now and then there's a few other songs. It sounds like he's laughing too. And I just think yeah, now that I've seen that whole you know, the whole thing, I think, oh my god, what were they doing? Like, seriously, someone's praying with their silver hammer been silly. But ya know,

that happened just has some of my favorite Beatles songs. Yeah. Yeah, come together something. Oh, I just love something. And I know that was George Harrison. And the very end of the whole album with that medley

Yeah, gold. I get goosebumps when I hear that like that.

No, I'm getting goosebumps now.

Just that that that Latin that last that last little line like the love you love you make is equal to you take it was like oh my god, it's so far cry. Yeah. And I love those last few. How many like the last few chords?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just genius. Same Oh, absolutely. And I wanted to I knew I wanted to write a song. Maybe that was something that could be like the very last song in a concert or the closer of an album like just that song that just made you want to go wow,

yeah, yeah, that that's big finish that big finale. Yes. Captured in that moment. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Have you done that? Have you written a song like that that you feel like you've cut I

felt like I felt like my single last year was a bit like that. That was what I wanted to try and achieve with that even though it was my debut single that just huge.

What was that song? Was that ghost? Yeah, that's those guys. Yep. Yep. Awesome.

Yeah, so I I was a co produce with another producer, I sort of I wrote it and just produce the demo and the producer that I hired basically just tightened it up and just put on some better drums and some actual organic bass and guitar and that was it really the rest of it was was all me so.

So do you do it on you play the instruments? Or is it you do it on the computer? Or how do you? How do you create that?

So I will start on the piano. I'm not I'm a bit of a hack. When it comes to playing the piano. I'm not that confident with it. So I do find having the access to my DAW to be really being able to talk feeling like to be able to enunciate and articulate exactly, well not exactly because I'm still learning how to use it. But it I find it a lot easier to to express what I want to actually write with, with my songs through the through the studio and have access to the layer after layer and track after track rather than just relying on a piano. Yeah. But when I'm when I'm gigging and when I'm doing open mic nights, it is just me and my piano. So I do have to I do write, I will actually compose a song, a piano part on the song that I know that I'll be able to play when I'm singing rather than just being sort of the chords. Yay, me singing over the top. But it's certainly something that I don't naturally feel comfortable and confident. It's taken a lot of work. And I'm still working with that. I mean, I actually bought a, a headset. Oh, yes. Because I just find it's so stressful when I'm playing the piano and singing in public. So not only see where my hands are on the keys, like to remember where the microphone is, and being totally conscious of where that is. And if it's sort of slot starting to slip down, or oh, I've got it in the wrong position, but I can't move it. So I'm kind of playing and thinking and then I'm making mistakes, and I just find it just too difficult. So I thought get a headset don't matter what looks

like stress out of it. And yeah, yeah. Because it's quite a spatial thing to like, knowing how far away you are from a mic, like how many times I've buddy hit a mic with my teeth or because like, I've just lost track of where it is. And you know, and that's not even playing as well. That's not accompanying myself. That's just me. Right? Yeah. You turn back around and go oh, there it is. Yeah, exactly.

Every morning when I wake up, I keep my eyes closed as on picture in my day, all the carbons of my body and to the touch the phone. So I want to

ask you, the rules songwriters of Melbourne that you've been doing some stuff with. Tell me about that.

I have, ah real songwriters of Melbourne has been a lifeline. I first got exposed to them through COVID on Instagram, as I think a lot of people did. They've been going now for nine years. They're about to celebrate their ninth birthday. But do then are who started it? And is the CEO, I guess you could say CEO. She, it's her it probably didn't take off until COVID, either, because we were all looking for something outside of ourselves that as creatives helped us to feel like we weren't alone. And I mean, I was in a very fortunate position where I hadn't lost any money I knew lots of I got to know lots of people who lost so much work. And it started out as for me as being a way that I could meet other creatives because I had no, I knew no one. Yeah. I had other mums around, but they weren't singer songwriters, or anything like that. So it was lovely to be able to start to network online. And I guess because of of the confidence that I have in myself now, just, I guess, through getting older, I found it very easy to make myself stand out, but not in a bad way and not to tread on other people's toes. But just being friendly and being supportive of other people and wanting to get to know other people and wanting to get to know other people's stories and realizing that, hey, I've got a story to tell too. And I think I could actually, I think a lot of people could who are younger than me could benefit from listening to my story. And they are amazing at being able to point you in the right direction, to releasing a song or finding in through finding information for you about the industry, the networking nights that they put on, they always have a speaker. And they've had people from publishing companies have had people from Apple or m cos they've had people from music, which Toria just all these amazing people speaking that you would not even know where to start looking. Or you wouldn't have that personal contact with them. Even if it's through an email or sending a bunch of emails or getting on DMS or whatever,

then you just, and sometimes you don't even know these people exist or what they do in the music industry, because it's so complicated. There's so many different different people that do different things. And that's yeah, like, that's the thing I find a bit frustrating, like, there's no straight line of how you do stuff. Like know, whenever, like I discovered all this stuff by accident. Like just by, you know, like you register yourself with a pram cost and you can get paid when you perform. I didn't know that before, you know, and put it on the air at stuff on the radio. So the community radio he's like can get access to. And so now if I ever come across anyone who's releasing something who like I just tell them all this stuff. I'm like, I don't know if you know this or not, but do this and do this and get this number and do that. And you know, like there's just absolutely, there's no way you can go that just says this is how you do it.

Yep. No, that's right. And that's something that I have found with the real songwriters. They are that that's the Yeah, that's their role. And they have released academies where people can just basically be given that timeline of what to do from the moment you start recording or even like finding a producer or finding somebody to collaborate, collaborate with and right down to promotion and release dates. And yeah, so we've been we're really fortunate here in Melbourne and even regional Victoria as well, that there is that access to all the information that you need, particularly as an emerging songwriter who is doing it on their own. Yeah, yeah, I've learned that everybody has a place at the table that it's all about collaboration, not competition, like it used to be and that's been really reassuring.

You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom I was in need.

I am not going to say this in a nice way because I'm a similar age. too, but do you feel like at some point, people think you're irrelevant in music? Because of your age?

No, because I don't let them. Yeah, good on you. I don't let them at all. I refuse to believe that I'm irrelevant. I refuse to sit back now and go, nope, I'm too old. And I think actually, that it works in my favor. Because I do feel very strongly about the fact that as a woman, and as a mother. We aren't irrelevant. We still have so much to say. And we probably have more to say, because we have lived more. Yeah. And I think it's our responsibility as older women to forge the path for younger women, something that I've learned a lot just in conversations that I've had with lots of other younger female songwriters. And I mean, we only only had a conversation just really recently, at a performance that I did fall real songwriters. And it was one of the other artists that we sat down, unfortunately, the conversation was interrupted, but she was asking me how old I was, How many children do I have? How old was I when I first started having children. And she said to me, she said, It's just inspirational to listen to somebody who isn't who who has had children later on in life. I mean, I was 35 when I had Macs, and she said that she had just broken up with her boyfriend, she was 29. And there was a part of her that sort of wanted to go back to him because she felt like she was going to miss out on that whole, having a child experience. And I've had lots of conversations with lots of girls who have gone like, I'm seeing my friends getting married and having babies and I'm feeling like I'm missing out. And it's just like following your heart. I'm here to tell you, it doesn't matter. There is no linear timeline as to how you do things. If you want to keep creating, everything will just fall into place. Yeah. Yeah. So I Yeah, and that's been a big thing for me. Now is to just be that advocate to go pay. I started doing this seriously. When I was 44. Yep. So it's never too late. Yeah. Yeah.

No, good on. Yeah, that's great.

I guess maybe? I think probably I haven't, I haven't been, I haven't been in this side of the music industry long enough to see things occur with attitudes of, I guess, the patriarchy. Having an attitude that you're done by the time you're 21. And if you haven't made it by the time you're 25, then you're no one and I haven't been exposed to that side of things. So I'm lucky that I can remain optimistic. Whereas I think there's lots of other female artists who have been in the music industry who have seen a lot more than I have. And potentially find it a lot more difficult to, to keep going.

Yeah, it's interesting, I've just started working with. I mean, I knew that the music industry was literally to business, right? The commercial radio, the signing, record labels, whatever, then just for this album that I'm releasing, I've just started working with a proper rep that I've never done, I'll never forget before, because I want this, I mean, this is what I say every time I don't know if this will be the last album I get to make, you know, so I want to do it properly, I guess. And and so it's amazing. When you they sent me this this like a you know, like you have a family tree with all the bits going everywhere. It was like that of the music industry. And it's like, if you can stay away from all that other bullshit and be independent, you've got so much more chance of remaining true to yourself, not having to do with all the the white men that make all the decisions for you. Making really great connections with people in community radio, and, and getting your music to the people who will genuinely be connected to it and be being flipped not influenced by that I'm affected by it and feel something by it. And it's like why the hell would anyone ever want to sign their life away? You know, to these big businesses like

it doesn't make sense. And I was even saying so Max's has been wanting to play guitar now for the last 18 months, and he he's insanely good. Yeah. I mean, I know everyone says that about their kids.

Yeah. But as a musician, you sort of know whether they are or not.

Exactly, yeah. And just seeing the passion that he has for it. And he's still, because he's still so new at it in his little mind. He, he's thinking, it's all about sort of like getting the record company and signing the contract. And that's what it is. And I can't remember what we were watching. But we had a conversation very quickly about the music industry and, and the business behind it. And, and he was talking about, like, bands selling out and singles and blah, blah, blah. And I said, Look, this is what happens when you're signed to a record label, you actually don't get the voice, you don't get a voice, you don't get a choice as to what song you release, you are told and you are a product. And you are dispensable and disposable. And as you said, it is an asset. It's a business. That's why it is called business. Nothing to do with the music

is just there a product it the music is the thing that you're selling, like if you sold shoes or something, you know, I hated shows like Australian Idol and that it's like you're literally trying to find someone who's going to make money for you. You know, and over the years, like my sister and I both sing and peoples are you guys should go on Australian, I was like, I was so firmly against it. Because I just was so cynical of that world with good reason that, you know, they're gonna take you they're gonna turn you into something else that they want, that's going to make more money that's more marketable, or, you know, and I just go night that that's not for me. I don't want. And I also I don't think, I don't know, I just want to be who I am. And that sounds like it's a cop out like,

I don't know, no, no, no, no, not at all.

I don't want to I don't want to go wear some clothes that I don't that don't suit me or change my hair. Like I just want to be who I am. That's

it. And I think you're happier that way, too. Yeah, thank you for being like that, Oh, I hate those shows with an absolute passion. And yeah, and anyone who knows me know, who's how I don't like to rent I used to when I was younger, but I don't like to rent anymore. But if you really let me go, I'd be like, All right, let me tell you. But I guess to the general population who don't have the kind of access that we have, I mean, we're in a really privileged fortunate position where we have first hand experience. What it is, I mean to someone, there's so much to think about, like standing in a recording studio is just so beyond the realms of fantasy for most people. Whereas for people like you and I, it's nothing to die young going into the studio when she's dead.

Yeah, like literally like, Yeah, ah, yeah, it's funny. And but that's the thing once you know, it freaks you out. Because you know that, you know, when I realized how songs got onto commercial radio, I was like, that they're paid. Like, it's to do with the deals that they make with the record companies to play this song, like, and I was like, There's no way I'm ever going to hear my music on that. And it's like, well, that's great. So I'll forget about that. And I'll just, you know, focus on the things that, that I can do. And it's like, yeah, when not everyone wouldn't know you that, you know, like, no,

absolutely not, particularly, I think when you're younger, as well. And you do just have that. That idea of, that's what it is, and you're famous, like I remember teaching singing for a little while back in the late 90s, early 2000s. And, and I remember a couple of students sort of Britney Spears was massive at the time and I show my age and and I remember a lot of them sort of saying I want to record contract and and saying, You know what? It's not about having the record contract, and then everything falling in your lap and just explaining to them as best I could before they just sort of saw it has been white noise, what it actually entails and it's someone literally giving you a loan that you miss how you have to pay back. Yes. And if you don't pay it back a bit through record sales and touring, then you aren't you're still owing money.

No thanks. Yeah.

So yeah, it's just it's, that's what people are exposed to when they're young. They're watching Australian Idol and things like that on TV indefinitely. millionaire thinking oh, this is what it is to this. This is the way to become famous. And this is the way to to be a millionaire. And yeah, it's easy. Easy. Yeah, exactly. And I think what sort of makes me really annoyed about those those sorts of programs too is when they they lock on to say an old person who says, This is my last chance. That's like,

yeah, so for bloody television

play. Yeah, that'd be the less than about those shows about that. Yeah.

And, look, I could, no, I'll stop now. I won't stop again.

I know, saying that's the thing. I know, actually. Just Just to quickly, yeah, one more point, I do remember going on to the application form of the voice just to see what it was about. Because I, I remember googling about what the actual contractual obligations are of the contestants. And, and I went on to the onto the application form, and there is actually a bit on the application form that asks, Who would you dedicate this performance? To? So they're fishing? Yeah, for the story?

Yeah. Yeah, that

story? Yeah. And I thought, there it is. That's what they want. They want that sob story.

Yeah. So like bullshit Sarah?

We're changing tack slightly, I want to talk to you about something I like to talk to people about the value of their art or their creativity. And you mentioned before that your music is a hobby. How do you because you don't necessarily earn, you know, a massive income from your music? Does that, in your mind diminish at all? The value of it? Overall?

No, not at all. Yeah, I think because I'm still learning how to do it with the object in mind that this is how I do want to earn money. So I think I'm still sort of walking up that ladder, to get it to that point, and to know that it's okay to want to earn money from it. But that it is, it's, I think, also, too, when you have that in the back of your mind, sometimes that puts a bit of pressure on I know, it puts pressure on me. So I'm quite happy to know that my art still has value, because I'm still putting out putting it out into the world. And it's something that comes uniquely from me. And it's wonderful If people hear it and relate to it, even if it's just one person. So no, I don't think it does diminish it at all. And I part of the reason why I wanted to start creating and learning how to access that part of myself was to show my children that it doesn't matter how old you are, you are always learning and you can always learn a new skill. And we are never taught at school, the process of learning at all. We're just expected to sit down and absorb information where it's not linear. It's not like once you've cracked something, oh, I can do this now. And you keep doing it. No, it's always two steps forward one step back. There's always frustrations there's always that feeling of oh, I did this yesterday. Why can't I do it today? Yeah, that feeling so I think that in and of itself is art. Yeah, that learning process. So it's all valuable. Yeah. in any form. Any money from modern art?

Yes, that's I knew you were gonna say that. I sort of I've got to work out a way of wording that question so it's not so walking you into it? Yeah, no, that's fine. Oh, yeah. No my arts crap because I don't make money from

it. and also to I see, I've got a cousin, who is a singer as well. But she is a completely different style to me. And we really, sadly don't have a lot to do with each other, which is quite sad. But at the same time, she still is in the old music industry mindset of competition. And I think that's potentially why we don't ever really get on. Or she sees me as a threat. I don't know. But I kind of feel like she's feeling like that we're in competition. And I see how much stress and pressure she has placed on herself in the past with making albums. And I think the last album that she made one of the songs that she did actually got a nomination for Best song for the golden guitars up in Tamworth, I think back in 2013. But she had placed so much pressure on herself that if this album didn't do any good, she wasn't going to do it anymore. No. And I think that's really, really sad. Yeah. That she was just it for me. That's not art.

No, that's that's running a business isn't like, yeah. Yeah,

yeah. I mean, I think now she is actually a surgical nurse. And I think like any creative, you put it on the shelf, we put it to bed for a number of years and kind of go up and up. But I don't want to I'm not ready to do that yet. It kind of hurt me a little bit. But I think now she's at that point where she's, she's wanting to start to get back into it. I know, she is actually singing in cover bands up in Tamworth now. So she's getting back into that side of things. But I think she's actually really from what I hear. She's actually really keen to get back into writing again. But yeah, just I think it's really sad when we placed pressure on ourselves that yes, we have to make money and this has to do really, really well. And yeah, no, not that's not for me.

I think that that whole thing, it just takes away that ability to like we were talking before about being in those states or being in those, you know, mindset to be creative. It just shuts all that down. Yeah, exactly. Just doesn't doesn't work.

That's it. I mean, it's it's gonna be fun. Yeah,

absolutely. God, I can't be stressful. No, I want it to be stressful. That's the thing like you've got enough stress in your life with you know, families and kids and jobs and whatever else in the thing that you do for fun. You want it to be fun.

Yeah, exactly. Stop stop.

Your stub stub stub

that you mentioned you, your boys there how you sort of showing them, you know, different things. Do you feel like it's good for them to see you as not just mom and I always say that Jasmine, because you're not just mom. So we're never just man, but that you do things outside of your mothering role, I guess?

Absolutely. Yeah. It took them a long time to understand. They would see me go to choir. Yeah. And every every Monday night and it would be sort of quickly shoveling going down my throat and off I went. And for a long time it would be like lag and leaving. Why are you going and they just didn't understand that and I distinctly remember one day doing something writing something and and Max coming out I don't even know how old he was he probably about seven or eight coming into me and just going mom, you shouldn't be making music. You should be making my lunch so no, I think it's very important for them to see that. I have other interests outside of being a mum and I know lots of mums will agree when when you say that it makes you a better mum. Because you're happy and it will there will come a time when they will understand me they understand now I fully but yeah, when they were when they were little they didn't obviously but I I know after releasing my single last year, that they are our are very proud of me, even though Max probably wouldn't admit it, but it was one of the twins, Zach was always he's always telling people at school that I seen and he's always showing what I do on a showing Spotify and showing all his friends and everything that I'm doing. And I helped out at a cross country thing for one of the twins classes a few weeks ago, and a little girl came up to me and she's just like, you're on the internet. So, yeah, I think they need to see that I am doing something that I really enjoy. And it makes it makes me happy. It's part of who I am. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it is very important that I'm, I'm particularly too because I don't work. So it's, it's even more important for them that they see that I am, Mum, but I am also me, as well. And I have an identity, because you know what it's like when you when when you first got children, you're known as Max's mom. And it's like, I don't have a name.

I was gonna say that earlier, actually, when you're talking about the twins, when you get to talk with in the street, like I recall, you know, people see you and they'd straightaway just latch on to the baby. And it's like, I'm actually here, you know, I'm the one that thinks like, I'm the one that's keeping them alive. But you know, to worry about me. And they'll be with the three of them get to like Florida. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you are, you do just kind of become this soulless figure, don't you when you first become a mother. And that's really, I think it's really, really difficult to reconcile with. Because so suddenly, everyone else's life, I remember being pregnant with Max and sitting in the lounge room one night, just in tears, because I just thought, I'm the first one in my friendship group to have a baby. I hadn't met my mom's group at this point in time. And everyone else's life will go on as normal. Even to a certain extent, my husband, he still gets to go to work and come home. Whereas my whole life in the blink of an eye is going to change. And I think that that was a really, really difficult realization for me. And I remember actually feeling very angry and very upset about that. A little while, and just feeling this is not fair. Yeah. But you get over it, don't you? In your arms, you're like, Oh, fine now? Well, not really.

I know you made it. So fat in the end, eventually, I think it through the help of, you know, continuing your creativity, just to remind yourself that you still have these skills and abilities and gifts. It's like they don't just disappear suddenly, when the baby pops out. Like

no, no. Exactly, absolutely. I was even. I've been doing some some tuition with with a producer over in the UK, Aubrey Whitfield, and she is just about to have her first child in June. And she is an incredibly busy producer. And she cannot get over the attitude towards her with some people in terms of if she, for example, isn't able to get a song to an artist on time because she's been tired or she's had morning sickness. And it's amazing just how unforgiving. People are like it's yeah, we know we're not sick. But you do just have to cut pregnant women a little bit of slack. And even when I was really heavily pregnant with the twins, I got onto the tube and the train. And I had a little like baby on board badge and I was quite big at this point in time. And there was a man sitting in the special seat. And he was surrounded by bags and I looked at him and I say Excuse me, could I please sit down? And he looked at me and he was French, just from the accent. He was just like, but I have all these bags and I was like bye Baby bags get off.

Oh my god. Yeah, that's it,

isn't it like, like a hug to someone else the other day like, we're literally continuing the human race, you know, without us having children birthing children, the world would end. But no, you can't sit down because my bags are on the floor. You know?

That's it. I know. And I know that there are some people, some women that potentially do come across as being entitled, because they are mothers, and they have birthed children, and they feel entitled for the world. For them to park the seas and the world to revolve around them. I do get that. But at the same time, yeah, it's just like, rolling a person in me. My choice, but

I just don't get that like that she couldn't happen. Like you lose sight of the of those the amazingness of the whole thing? I don't know.

It's really sad to think that we're just not supported. Yes. Yeah. We should be. Yeah. And I think it's again, it's a it's a Patrick patriarchy thing, I suppose where we're, this is what we are meant to do. So yeah, why do we feel like we should be needing like, preferential treatments? And I think that's where it stems from? Yeah, I

think so it is a lot going on there. But I'll stop myself. Because if I start Oh.

Bla.

Jana, you just

I want to ask you, if you've had sort of anything experience with mum guilt, over the years, when it comes to your music

it's funny because I've been thinking about this a lot. Um, maybe from time to time in the early days? I did. Because they were little. And they were needing me. And I didn't have the help around me. Where I didn't have like a mom close by or a sister close by who I could just be like, Look, can you take the kids for the day just so I can do this? And I'm fine. So I think in the early days, I did, particularly when I first started like doing choir, for example, and leaving them and thinking that yeah, I feel guilty for leaving them. But thankfully, with the help of my husband as well, I was able to let that go quite quickly and understand that I need to do this. And I'm not going to be a good mom, if I'm going to put that guilt on myself. Because they the kids get over it. Don't they like that? They might be like, Oh, Mom, where are you going? What are you doing? But then to seven years later, it's just like, Oh, look at that. It's like jewelry from

off to the next thing distractions

did exactly, exactly. i My eldest for quite a long time. Actually, it wasn't just the music thing, it would be like if I put into bed and then I'd quickly pop off up to the shops because it was easier to do it on my own obviously, because I didn't have to haul three kids out of the car. So it would just be ducking up to Kmart or something like that to do something and I would come home. And Max had been in bed for an hour or more and he'd be waiting for me to get home. And then the moment I'd walked through the door, he come out of his bedroom and give me a hug and say to me why Where did you go What I didn't, why are you leaving that kind of thing. And that happens a lot when he was little. And I couldn't work out why but my husband and I like why are you doing this? Like why Mom's coming home? And I spoke to my grandmother about it. And she said to me she she made a really good point. And she said to me, maybe because he's always told that if he goes out on his own, that he has to be careful and something might happen to him. Maybe he feels that something like that is going to happen to you and I thought oh my My goodness may potentially be what it is. Yeah, right element of worry of this is a date not a dangerous place because you don't want it to be just a dangerous place. But yeah, yeah, it's just like, I'm not allowed on Maya out on my own. So I don't want you Yeah. Which I've just thought that's a really valid point. And the moment I started to reframe it in that way, I became a lot more empathetic to him. Yeah, rather than getting frustrated with it. Yeah. Hmm.

At the moment, my seven year old is going through this Age of Reason where he discovers that he's a, I don't know, a sentient being, and he's controlling his thoughts and also realizes that people die. And that when his parents who died, oh, wow, conversations of evenings, like, Oh, of course, at bedtime, you know, when when there's nothing else to do but think. So yeah, he's had a shocking few nights, I've actually had to be back in there with him, helping him to fall asleep, which I haven't, you know, years and years and years and years. Yeah. So to my husband, we have to be really kind to him and not tell him off. And even though we're frustrated that we've, you know, can't get some time to a sales, but you know, it'll pass but

yeah, that's it, isn't it? And it's very easy to look at it from an adult perspective. And think, why you're doing this for like, yeah, you're being really illogical. And you're being silly. Like, it's, that's Yeah, but when you look at it from their point of view, and then I think that happens when you start to just be kind to them and understanding and Yeah, Mike appealing rational to us. Yeah, yeah. But it's a very real problem. Yeah, that's

it. He said to me the other day, he just wanted to sit with me. So I just want to spend as much time as I can with you before you know.

And then I thought back to my, my eldest who is 15. And when he he went through it a lot younger. He was like, everything he did was early, he talked early, like everything was early. And I remember thinking, God, you weren't like this. At seven. He was like, a lot earlier. And he said a thing to me, he said, are when you die, I don't want them to put you in the ground. I'll go in the ground with you. So I don't miss you. And I've always remembered that and I think oh my god. That's how that's how he's rationalizing. Losing, you know, people. Yeah, God, it's big. Isn't it? Like, being a little person and having that massive thing? So? Oh, yeah. That just reminded me when you're talking about your little man,

yeah, it's a real version of an existential crisis read literally, isn't

it? Yeah. All of a sudden, there's this whole extra thing happening. And you're aware of so many other things that you didn't really get like, you knew it was there. But you didn't understand the magnitude of it, I suppose. And how it would affect you and your your emotions related to it. Yeah, it's pretty Yeah,

exactly. Wow.

Yeah. Tell you what betimes makes you think it does bring you back as an adult to think about important things like that, I think to think, I don't know, you take that stuff for granted, I guess. And then, when someone little person says that you think Oh, Jesus. Yeah.

Because I guess it feels like such a long way away for them to be dying. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's when you sort of start to think, oh, hang on a second. You see your grandparents passed away. If you're lucky enough that you're an adult, you still have your grandparents. I mean, I'm lucky enough. I've still got one grandmother, she's 91. And I just think to myself, once she goes, then it's my parents, and they're in their 70s Now, and they are facing their mortality as well. And my dad had a cancer scare last year, and that's really changed him profoundly, as well. So just kind of thinking wow, like the last 20 years have gone really quickly. And if I'm lucky enough, I've still will have hopefully my parents in another 20 years but at the same time, what is their health going to be like? And it's sobering, isn't it? Yeah, that it just it's Yeah. And to be like my grandmother and think to yourself, I wonder how much longer I have left? Yeah, I do.

We have haven't we've gone down this path. But I do that and I think I have these like every few few years. I guess you have this time. More, you just literally take stock and you like what you've just said they're like, Okay, so I'm 40 nearly 40 5am I halfway through or am I, you know, three quarters of the way through? Like, will I get to see my children to have children? You know, will I be grandmother? And you just think, oh my god, this is like life.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it makes you and I think when I turned 40, I thought to myself, I've tried not to sort of see the new decade as being this threatening thing. And I was fine leading up to my 40th birthday. But I remember when I did turn 40 All of a sudden, it just hit me. Oh, who am I? Who am I? I'm not this sort of bouncy little kind of like blond haired Jojo, that everyone has known me. I don't identify with her anymore, but I don't know who I am now. And it very, it was a real shock to the system to go. Whoa, I don't think I'm actually not having a midlife crisis. But I have actually hit the next chapter in my life. Like I am actually all grown up now.

Yeah, yes.

But yeah, with that sense of maturity, you you do stuff. Right. Well, I don't know how much longer I do actually have.

Yeah, yeah, it's tremendously sort of start weightlifting.

As I say when it's daring definitely.

Right

anything coming up that you'd like to share? I am. I haven't decided yet, which I'm going to actually release some singles or whether I'm actually going to release an EP. My goal for by the end of this year is to actually release some music, some more music, but I'll be doing it completely self released in terms of honing my own mixing and mastering skills, they're not getting any outside help. That's exciting. Yeah, I'm really excited about it. And just to, to have that catalog of songs on Spotify, a friend of mine did some research really recently. And I don't know what she was looking at. But it was basically saying that when people look at your Spotify profile, they actually want to see that there's more than one song, they want to see a catalog of songs, which I don't have. So that's what I want to do, I want to just have that catalog. And just, they don't have to be perfect. And I'm not going to promote them as heavily as what I did with my last single know that I have done it. And I've gotten more music out there that I've shared properly. And I will actually release another single where I will really promoted heavily like I did with my single last year, but and I will actually get some outside help with that. Because that particular song, I feel like I won't do it justice and I just doing it myself. It's not quite how I want it. And my skill set at this point in time can't elevate it to the level that I want it to be at. So yeah, I will do that, hopefully by the end of the year as well. But it's, as we all know, it's just finding the time to fit that kind of stuff in and in between like running the kids to basketball and volunteering at school and doing all that kind of stuff as well as running patients in the house. So yeah, so that's the goal.

Stay tuned.

Yes, that's exciting. That's it and I can appreciate that it's quite daunting to take that next step. and do stuff by yourself, then to trust that you have the skills to be able to do and believe in yourself, too. I think that what do they call it that? I always forget what it's called. Now this gone, but when you don't think you're good enough, you think that are important syndrome? Yeah, yeah. Get over that and say actually, no, I do know what I'm doing. And I am going to do it. I think that's awesome. Going on. Yeah.

Well, I, I would like to start producing other people's songs as well, eventually, I'd love that. That's kind of the dream for me is to not only write and produce my own stuff, but to also help other people as well other artists and collaborate with other artists in that way. I'm and I feel like I'm a long way away from that at this particular point in time, but I think I've thought for a while now, I've always thought to myself, it's an expensive hobby, releasing music. And so if I can learn to do a lot of it myself, yeah, rather than spending $1,000 on someone else doing it for me, I'd rather spend that $1,000 and learn how to do it myself, as they say, teacher, give him give a person a fish, they'll eat for a day, teach a person to fish in the lake for the life for the lifetime. So that's how I see it.

Yeah. And learning continuing to learn like that. So yeah, I think that's a very recurrent thing that I've heard just, you know, it's a theme that's coming through a lot today. It's great to keep, keep learning and yeah, not settling, I suppose. Yes,

the hard part is not being distracted and thinking, Well, I'd like to learn how to do that too. And I was learning the drums. And I still want to keep learning. But I actually started to think you know what, I'm getting off way more than I can chew. I do need to start honing in on some things. The producing side of things under the belt first, and then we'll go back to learning the drums because that was fun. That was so much fun.

with like, the, all of that sound engineering side of stuff, like does your brain work in that, that way? It's

starting to, yeah, it's really starting to. It's starting to really listen to things now and think about like the frequency spectrum then. And I haven't really quite nailed down compression yet. I'm getting there. But these courses that I've been doing with this producer over in the UK, she's completely self taught. But just the way, she teaches everything, it just makes it sound so easy. And it is easy, the way she just kind of breaks things down. And articulate articulates it it just takes away any of the complicated stuff that you may find on YouTube, like it's taken me, it took me a really, really, really long time just through like YouTube tutorials to get a grip with a get a grip on lots of different things that I wanted to try and try and do in my studio. And I learned more in three months with Aubrey than and got more confident with it in three months. And what I did in three years is insane. Yeah. So now, I know that I can lift up the laptop. And I can listen to something now and be like, right, I want to have a little bit of delay at this point. And I know how to do it. Yeah, rather than Yeah. So it's learning another language and I find it fascinating. So now, the way I listened to music is totally different. Yes. So what I used to I used to just listen to it from a singers aspect. Words and Music words and Melody top line. Now, it's like, right, so how did they achieve the excitement in this space with the music? So what sounds did they use and how many layers and all this sort of stuff that I that I was I was being taught in high school, that at the time I didn't care about like, why is the cello there so but now it's like, oh, right, I can I can see the I can hear the intention behind why they're playing particular things. Like I'm probably a little bit too analytical. But I don't see that for myself as being a downside. If I I guess if my husband's sort of going I don't like this and I'm like yes, but you have to see why they don't.

When you have that knowledge, it's almost too much. Yeah. Oh, I can I can relate to that. was just listening to the singer. And I was totally the same when I made my first album. When I was working with the producer I was working with he was like now what? What sort of sound Can you visualize for this? And I'm like, I was coming at it from my point of view. He's like, Oh, no, but what about the instruments? I'm like, I don't know. Isn't that what you do? Like it was, like saloon and understand. And now the second album, I'm like, telling them what I want. Because I can, it is another language like I can actually feel like I can communicate in that way. Now, it totally different, totally different and it's great. I love I love that, that awareness. But with this sound, sound engineering stuff, literally, I just go. I know how to make the things work that I know that I want to do. And then I don't fiddle with anything else, because I've got

to touch things. I don't move things that don't fit. Oh, yeah, that's good. Leave it like that.

Yeah. I know, it's funny. When I when I was working with with my producer, for my single, there was a certain part in the song that he must have sent it back to me maybe six times, and it still wasn't achieving the sound that I wanted it to achieve. And, and I kept sort of saying to him, like this naturally sort of pushed up further and this. And I mean, I know as producers, you do get so used to working with vocalists and artists who don't know how to get the desired effect that they want. Yeah. And it got to a point where I just thought, oh, you know what, it's just going to be so much easier if I just go back into the studio, and we actually just sit down. Yeah, and go through it. And I had this epiphany of thinking, Oh, my goodness, I'm trying to do more, more more. Why don't I actually figure out what can be taken out. So make this part stand out. And it was just a totally different perspective that I had never even it never even entered my mind that that's sometimes what you have to do. And so, we got it done in half an hour, I went into the studio, and I was like, right, I thought about it. What are the instruments that are there? What can we take away? And we worked out what it was and bam, the sound appeared.

Oh, there you go. I love that. That's so yeah,

but as as Bruce said, in the tutorials, she's she's, I'm doing actually funnily enough a vocal production thing now and like so getting up at like one in the morning because it's a live zoom session at four o'clock in the afternoon UK time. She had we did she did a whole module last weekend on how to work with singers who really don't know what they're doing. They, like don't even know how to sing to a metronome. And I I know Right, exactly. You just sort of think I could you know yeah, that's it. That boggles my mind. But she said she was actually saying that it happens more frequently than what you expect. Wow. So learning how

to literally be prepared for anything. Whoa.

I never thought about that before. Yeah, so there's there's been quite a few times where my I've gone to bed and then my alarms gone off at like 10 to two in the morning and then I'm up until 330. The couple of weeks ago actually I had a gig about an hour and a half away and we didn't finish until 1230 and I got home at two o'clock and the session was starting at two o'clock. Oh, like jumping in the shower because I was really really sweaty. Jumped in the shower and quickly logged on and got to bed at yeah at 330

Oh yeah.

Have to ask your your Instagram is like Dragon Fly industry

dragonfly industry. Yeah.

Where did that name come from?

Right. So I wanted to actually separate my identity of myself and the project because I felt if I had a little bit of detachment from that it wasn't it wasn't including my My whole identity in the project. Yeah, and, and I was fascinated with people who had artist names that weren't a name. And the one that kept coming to me was Japanese wallpaper. And and that's just one guy. I can't remember his name now. I thought it'd be really cool to have an artist name like that. I can hear it on the radio now, like, debut single by dragon flying industry. And I thought it had to be sort of something that potentially could be visual. And I wanted something that included like the idea of me taking off like growing wings and flying. Yeah. And I thought birds and butterflies, cliched overused. I wonder what else there is. And I meditated. When I just didn't remember this. I meditated one Saturday afternoon, it wasn't like I was meditating on it at all. But I was meditating. And I started having a discount, like just a conversation with my late grandfather, mid meditation, and was washing up maybe half an hour later. And then all of a sudden thought, Oh, my goodness dragonfly. I wonder if that has any symbolic meaning. And so I looked it up. That means things like maturity and adaptation, and let me have a look. It just it really, really just resonated to a point where I was just like, shot. Real? And yes, so then I thought, right. Dragonfly. Hmm. I'm building as well. And, and then I thought industry. I wonder what the Oxford Dictionary like I wonder what the actual definition of industry is. And it was something like manufacturing and building from raw supplies. And that just, Oh, that is perfect. And I had felt in the conventional way. And then I had someone say to me when they saw dragonfly industrial in a lineup for an open mic night, that he was really intrigued to find out what it was because when he looked at the words, it actually looked like it was something from the corporate world. No, I don't want that. I don't want no. Yes. So I thought I would change the spellings a little bit. But little did I realize that I was potentially shooting myself in the foot because I'm continually telling people out spell it

will be okay. And every live it's all a dream. It's like exploring canvas on one screen. A Chat is the truth of broken lines. The bedtime story is that a threat has only drama.

Thank you so much for coming on. Joe. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Yeah, thanks for sharing all your bits and bobs and, and indulging me where I've wandered off on the tangent. Oh, don't worry, I've

done the same thing. That's been great.

And yeah, I'll put all the gather up all your links and put them in the show notes. So people want to follow along with you. Safari.

Here. Barry.

Yeah, and all the best. I hope you Yeah, have a have a good time making new singles and or deciding it's an EP, whatever you just keep an eye out for. Yeah, thanks again.

So much. It was great. It was so good fun.

Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.