Search Results

Hello artistic/creative mum!! Thank you so much for agreeing to be featured on the Art of Being a Mum blog. If you could please copy and paste the questions into a word doc or email, and then type your answers underneath, to send back to me. Artist Info Tell us about yourself, your art form, what you create, style, mediums you use. Let us get to know you as an artist. How did you get started, influences, why this artform, were you a creative child, what sparked your interest, any study you have done in this field, etc. Is this what you always wanted to do? Did you feel like you had to get a 'real' job and not pursue art? Family info Tell us about your family, children, ages, (names are optional) Share as much or as little detail as you wish. Day to day What does your art life look like today? Hours you are able to spend, challenges, pros and cons How do you juggle it all? How do your children fit into this? Any tips you can share or things you wish you had known? Did you need to find new ways to work so you could continue creating? Support Do you/did you have others in your art circle that have had this experience? Do you or have you had role models about how to juggle creating art and the demands of parenthood? Do you/did you have a support network around you? How did that/does that affect your work/art/creativity? Being a mum Did having a child/becoming a mother influence or inform your work? This one is not about the day to day logistics, more about the emotions that came up that might have manifested in your work "Mum guilt" Do you believe in the concept of "mum guilt"? a) when it comes to your art and b) general life. Do you feel differently about mum guilt depending on what you are doing? eg art or normal life? Yes/No/Why? Discuss - this is one of my favourite topics What triggers your mum guilt? (if you feel it) Identity How did the concept of your own identity change when you became a mum? Is it important to you to be "more than a mother"? eg - you are also your own person, artist, wife, daughter etc If so, how do you give yourself time and space to do/feel this this? What are your thoughts around this? Is it important to you to continue your art/own interests? Is it important to you that your children see that you do more than just the mothering role? Value of your art/creativity We're not talking about the monetary value of your work here, but the importance you place on your creating. If you don't bring money into your household with your creative work, does that diminish the value of it in your eyes? How do you feel about how society sees the value of (mother) artists contributions? Cultural Norms When you were growing up, what sort of a mother was your own mother expected to be? Did society expect her to focus only on her family and home roles? How did that effect you as a child and then growing up and how you approached your own parenting? I'm in Australia so Im really interested in how other cultures have expereienced this. Anything else An opportunity for you to share anything additional t hat is important to you, or to promote yourself, your business, etc Future What projects are you working on or have coming up? Shows, gigs, etc Where can people find you online? Social etc Other notes Although not a topic I ask guests directly about, the subject of mental health comes up more often than not. If you feel comfortable sharing your experience please do so. PLEASE SEND ME - promo photos that I can share. This can be of you, an example of your work, your family/children, anything that you would like to represent you. Any number from 1-5 is great, and at least one that shows your face is great. links to your website/instgram etc or any other links you wish to share a list of the materials/ equipment you use in your practice. I like to compile a list and provide links for listens to purchase or research further if they wish. an artistic bio, any special awards or upcoming events you would like mentioned in your show notes. SOCIAL MEDIA Your blog will go live on a Friday. Leading up to this I will post the following on my instagram and facebook accounts: Wednesday - Introduction using supplied photo Thursday - Quote tile Friday - Out Now image tile Sunday - Reel - supplied photos Tuesday - Quote tile for examples of these check out my instag ram I will tag you in each, feel free to share or repost on your socials, it certainly helps to spread the word. You will also have a dedicated landing page for your blog, which is a great place to direct people to, if you would like this link for your website or socials please let me know, or you can extrapolate it here: eg https://www.alisonnewman.net/written-interview-articles-1/ firstname-lastname From time to time I post previous guests’ quotes so you may notice yourself pop up again months down the track. I enjoy taking relevant quotes and sharing them around a theme on my socials. If you have any queries or questions please let me know, Alison x

Rebecca McMartin Australian podcaster + mental health advocate S3 Ep80 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Today I welcome Rebecca McMartin to the podcast, Rebecca is a podcaster and digital creator based in Sydney, Australia, but sees herself first and foremost as a storyteller and mum of a little boy, nicknamed Pudge. Rebecca was always drawn to reading and writing as a creative and therapeutic outlet, and studied several creative writing and journalism courses in the hopes of pursuing her passion. Ultimately, she gave up this pursuit due to the fear of not being 'creative' or good enough. Following an acute mental health crisis when her son was born, Rebecca returned to writing as a way to process her pain and grief. It was from this experience that she decided to harness the power of storytelling and start Perinatal Stories Australia - a podcast, blog, and social media platform for Australian women to share their lived experiences with perinatal mental ill health, which she works on between motherhood moments. Through holding space for these vulnerable conversations, Rebecca hopes to increase awareness, to advocate for maternal mental health causes, to reduce stigma, to inform listeners about the support services available, to improve mental health literacy, and to make sure no mother feels alone in her struggles. This episode contains mentions of many mental health disorders including anxiety, depression, PTSD, panic attacks, as well as birth trauma and grief. Connect with Rebecca website / instagram / facebook Podcast - instagram / website Gidget House Subscribe to the podcast weekly email here - never miss an episode If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their works been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Thank you so much for tuning in. Today. It is lovely to welcome you into my studio here in Mount Gambier in South Australia. As I'm recording this today, it's a beautiful 22 degrees Celsius outside. That's about 70 and Fahrenheit. If the sun is shining, there's a light breeze, there's not a cloud in the sky. And you can probably hear the birds are singing. I thought I'd leave my window open and give you a little taste what it feels like to be in my part of the world. Today I'm welcoming Rebecca McMahon to the podcast. Rebecca is a podcaster and digital creator based in Sydney, Australia. But she sees herself first and foremost as a storyteller, and mom of a little boy nicknamed Pudge. Rebecca was always drawn to reading and writing as a creative and therapeutic outlet and studied several creative writing and journalism courses in the hopes of pursuing her passion. Ultimately, she gave up this pursuit due to the fear of not being creative, or being good enough, following an acute mental health crisis when her son was born, Rebecca returned to writing as a way to process her pain and grief. It was from this experience that she decided to harness the power of storytelling, and start perinatal stories Australia, a podcast blog and social media platform for Australian women to share their lived experiences with perinatal mental ill health, which she works on between motherhood moments. Through holding space for these vulnerable conversations. Rebecca hopes to increase awareness to advocate for maternal mental health causes to reduce stigma to inform listeners about the support services available to improve mental health literacy, and to make sure no mother feels alone in her struggles. Please be aware this episode contains mentions of many mental health disorders, including anxiety, depression, post traumatic stress disorder, panic attacks, as well as birth trauma and grief. Thanks again for tuning in. It really is such a pleasure to welcome me. Thank you so much for coming on. Rebecca. This is a real pleasure to meet you and to speak to you today. Thank you. Well, thank you for having me. I think I followed your podcast for a while now. So I felt very like privileged Whitney, like sent me a message saying if I'd like to come on, and I was like, Yes, please. It's lovely to hear. Thank you. So you're in Sydney. Yeah. What's it like up there today? Is it is it? It's disgustingly hot. But I mean, I can't complain. It's been terrible weather all year up until about a week ago started to feel like summer finally. So I guess, you know, you get what you wish for and like we've been the same. It's just we've had no sort of just nice average weather. It's been raining extremely cold. Yep. Or then we get 39. So it's like I said, I can't wait till it gets hot and then we can start whinging about how to exactly, exactly. I need something new to whinge about you know? Yeah, so your mom and Your Podcast, you've been very active on your social media, sharing your your story and your journey with your perinatal stories Australia, can you can you tell us all about that and what inspired you to start that whole experience for people? I mean, you know, perinatal stories Australia, it's it's a platform really to share stories about perinatal mental health, you know, what we go through? I mean, yes, there's contentious arguments in the community about whether perinatal anxiety or depression are actually different from non perinatal anxiety, depression, I feel like it is. And I felt like we needed a space to talk about that to share stories about that, because going through mental illness itself is hard enough, going through it as a mom during pregnancy and or postpartum is just on another level. And that all came about, you know, I've had a history with anxiety, I've had a history with depression. And I, you know, naively thought that, you know, if this does happen to me postcard, and then you know, I've gone through it before I'll get through it again, it'll be right. But you know, as we learn, it doesn't discriminate. You can be a psychologist or social worker, you could be a doctor, you could have all this experience and personal history or knowledge of mental health or mental ill health, and it can still hit us like a ton of bricks. And that's what happened to me, I, I guess I was in denial about how anxious I was during my pregnancy. And, you know, I was so focused on postpartum and wanting to control my postpartum in order to protect myself from depression, or anxiety, or psychosis, which I'd learned about during pregnancy, and it scared the absolute shit out of me. But yeah, I was in denial about the fact that my anxiety was really there in pregnancy, and it was getting worse and worse and worse, at the start, I kind of kind of brushed it off, because, you know, I could still go to work, I was still functioning. So therefore, it was okay. You know, we tell ourselves those things, and you know, it's fine. And it'll be fine. When he you know, my baby's here, it's just hormones, you know, we go through that we dismiss ourselves. And my anxiety just got worse and worse, to the point that I wasn't leaving the house. And I know, that's such a stereotype. But I was having panic attacks every day. And I, I developed this fear of birth, which became pathological and even I was just missing myself, like, all everyone's scared of birth, and I'd taken all the classes, you know, all the calmbirth classes and wanting to be prepared, and I was originally feeling confident about birth. And then I wasn't, then I was just convinced I was going to die. And so that anxiety just took hold, I couldn't move, I couldn't go to work without bursting into tears couldn't leave the house couldn't make decisions. And it just the closer and closer it got to birth, the more and more it felt like I'm getting closer and closer to death. So that just became obviously a very horrible, horrible experience. But again, I just kept thinking, oh, when he's here, when the bus over, it will be fine. Obviously doesn't happen. You know, we I mean, mental illness in pregnancy is so under diagnosed, and so brushed off because we're so focused on postpartum. Yeah, and, you know, unfortunately, if you don't treat it in pregnancy, it actually gets us into a spot of like, you know, though, shocked to me, but I'm sure a shock to a lot of people I've spoken to a lot of mothers who said the same thing, you know, it popped up in pregnancy, but all hormones, it'll get better. And it doesn't because you're then thrown into this whole new situation with a whole new human who you have to, you know, you have to look after them so that they can survive and Yeah, unfortunately for me, I will, unfortunately but I I ended up booking a planned cesarean because I just the thought of going through labor and not panicking. I just couldn't see myself doing that. And you know, I guess the C section wasn't exactly a walk in the park I wasn't looking forward to that either. But there was a bit more certainty and a bit more control and the thought of going through labor and ending up in an emergency sixth section anyway because I wasn't able to control my anxiety. I made that decision and you know, it may have been me and you know, your coping skills you think okay, if that's something that you're scared, okay, just kind of tune it out a little bit. And so I was in the surgery and I I was in the room, my mind wasn't in the room. And you know, that led to something that I wasn't expecting, which was actually birth trauma. I did get diagnosed with postpartum PTSD and from that, I think that dissociation So yeah, that took me by surprise because in theory On paper, I had a very textbook birth, I lost minimal blood, everything was okay. Everyone was so lovely to my obstetrician, the midwives, I was even allowed my social worker in that room because everyone in that room knew how anxious I was. And they were doing everything to make sure I was comfortable and safe and okay. But I was still scared. And that anxiety in late pregnancy just obviously manifested and became crisis point within a few days of my son's birth. So I couldn't sleep. Anytime I tried to close my eyes, I would, I would have nightmares. And it would just jolt me, you know. So for days, I was having like red flashing firework scary images in front of my eyes, and I was petrified. So I was already anxious in pregnancy, this then just scared the shit. Obviously, you know, and then you've got a baby to look after. And I developed well, I learned that I had OCD my whole life, but it was very mild. It then obviously became a bit more acute. At this point in time, everything just kind of bubbled up. It was, you know, the anxiety were full crisis mode, there was the PTSD, there was rapid onset of OCD, there was a lot going on. And within a few days of my son's birth, we were admitted to a mother and baby psychiatric hospital because I was so distressed and I wasn't sleeping. And yeah, that's obviously not the story, I thought I'd tell about my own motherhood, that's not the story. You know, here I am thinking, Oh, I've had experience with mental ill health. You know, I can see my psychologist, you know, I've got skills, all of that went out the window. And I was absolutely at rock bottom. And, you know, this is someone me who is comfortable talking about my mental health who's had that experience. I can only imagine going through that. And you haven't seen a psychologist before. You haven't. I didn't even know that there was such a choice was and I especially didn't know that there were any for mothers and babies. This was all intimidating as well. So I mean, that turned out to be the best thing I've ever done in my life. Obviously, at the time, I didn't think that I was, I was terrified. Because this just felt like another thing I'd failed, or, you know, I was crazy. I was broken, I had no reason to be there. You know, there are women who are single parents, or they've gone through a very traumatic birth, or they've, you know, they're victims of domestic violence, or for whatever reason, I thought, You know what, I'm coming from a place of privilege. I shouldn't be feeling this, I must be broken. I must be crazy. You know, you, you kind of say things to yourself, like, Well, someone else has a better reason for this. It's clearly I'm just broken. No, and yeah, yeah, we look for those reasons. And when we can't find it, we then blame ourselves even more. Which is ridiculous, isn't it? Because there's we have absolutely no control, no control whatsoever on how on all of this stuff. Yeah. And yeah, sure, you know, maybe if my anxiety had been managed, better in pregnancy, and you know, the hormones, you know, maybe there was something more we could do. But at the end of the day, it doesn't discriminate. It's in my psychopathy, or my psychology, or, you know, it just it was going to happen. And I think a lot of people had to validate that for me is that, you know, with your history, something like this was going to happen, maybe not 16, and it obviously just snowballed out of control. But, you know, and how lucky am I that I was able to go to that Mother Baby Unit, I say this a lot, but I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that, you know, my son and I were allowed to be admitted together. That's the whole point. You know, the mother gets treated, while still prioritizing that mother baby diet, making sure you know, mom and Baba together and i My heart breaks for women who have to go to, you know, the emergency department and they're separated from their Bob for days or weeks. And you know, they're in a place where they can't have visitors. And I mean, this was in the middle of COVID lockdown in Sydney as well. So I was lucky my husband was able to stay as well because you know, they prioritize that family unit. We were locked in this little hospital. But again, being a mum in a general, you know, a public hospital or whatever with an emergency department in that psych unit not being allowed visitors your phone's taken off, you kind of thing I just My heart breaks and like I said, I am so lucky, so fortunate that I was able to attend the only one in New South Wales at that time. Know, I guess that's to answer your question. That's where perinatal stories Australia came out because like I said, this wasn't the story of motherhood. I was excited acting. And despite my knowledge and my experience, this all took me by surprise. And there was so much that I learned about mental health, specifically maternal mental health. And I just thought we don't talk about this. You know, it wasn't until I started talking to, you know, family extended friends, that people were like, Yeah, my sister's been there, or you're my auntie went to that hospital. People knew about it, but we don't talk. And what a disservice we're doing to mothers, by not talking openly about this by maybe, you know, they will then feel ashamed. Like, I'm clearly broken, I had to go to a psychiatric hospital, I'll never talk about this in my life. And I thought, I don't, I don't want that I don't want this to just be a bad memory, I want to do something with it. I want to tell these stories, my own and other women's so that there are mums out there potentially going through this who don't think they're broken, they don't think they're alone, and that they can potentially learn about some of the options available. You know, when you're in that moment, or that moment that, you know, crisis point, you feel like there is no help hope there is no help. There is nothing that will save you. And to know that, you know, it's not just necessarily going to a counselor, it could be antidepressants, it could be a psychiatric hospital, it could be seeing a social worker, it could be there's an occupational therapist, there are so many different pathways to receiving help are a combination of all of these, you know, whether you go down the line of potentially doing therapy like the eye movement, desensitization reprocessing, so EMDR whether you do that, or whether you go down the line of TMS, so the transcranial magnetic? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't, I don't know the acronym at the top of my head. But there's so many options, and they sound scary. But then when you actually talk to women and hear their experience of it, it becomes less and less foreign. And you start to feel a little bit more of that hope. So that was my goal. That was my goal with the podcast. And it took me it's taken me a year now to actually release the episodes. I only released my first episode six weeks ago, but I've been thinking about it and working on the social media stuff, and just trying to, I guess, build that community, but also feel a little bit more confident, because I have no idea I'm doing, let's be honest, I'm not a podcast, I still don't see myself as that. I don't see myself as a creative. So that in itself is something I'm still trying to negotiate with myself. So yeah, me being me, I want to be great at what I do. So I didn't want to release an episode. Like, you know, I had to build it up and had to learn and I had to teach myself because I didn't want to get too excited. I wanted to make sure I did it. Right. Yeah, I worked on the social media stuff just as a little as a starting point. So that was a space. And it still is, you know, for advocacy for raising awareness for education for sharing some parts of my story, some of those personal bits and pieces. And now obviously, that the podcasts been released, I'm sharing the stories of those moms who've gone through that, which is phenomenal. And I'm so grateful that they've been open and honest about those experiences, because the amount of women who have messaged saying, you know, I didn't know that this was an option I or I've gone and booked in to see my doctor, I'm actually going to ask for help now. Yeah, sorry. I just get shivers that it's yes, I can totally resonate with that. I think that's just the way I sort of see it is like not everybody is capable of sharing. And that's fine. So it's, it's totally okay. The people that are I sort of feel like it's it's your I don't know what the word is. You're not obliged to do it. But if you know how to do it, do it because it just helps so many people and you have no idea like you said until people talk about it you don't know who in your life you already know or I've met that has had experiences similar or can learn from your experiences like you were saying about people go oh Jeepers, that's raise something in May. I'm going to do something about it. It's so powerful and I just think like Good on you because it's it is vulnerable to share. What is the definition of the perinatal time period so perinatal is pregnancy to a year postpartum technically that is the medical definition, I'm of the opinion and with some other people I've met on Instagram, but you know, it could also be preconception, you know, if you're going through infertility or loss, that doesn't discount, it's not that you shouldn't be included because you don't technically meet that pregnancy and postpartum one definition, I still include it. But I mean, on a technicality, it is that time period between pregnancy and one year postpartum. And that's when you are most vulnerable to a mental illness as a woman, you are never more vulnerable than in that time period in your life yes. When you talked about having been able to go to the hospital to admit yourself and your baby, I didn't know those plates existed either. When I went through my experience with my second child, I was offered to be admitted to hospital, but it would have meant that it was only for me and not baby. So I chose not to. Because I felt that it was more important for me to be with my child, because I actually had this feeling that he was going to help me heal. I just had this really, I don't know what it was a feeling that I had to keep him close to me. And I think that's what deep helped me get through it. Whereas with my first child, I was always pushing him away and pushing him away. And that's the thing too, I think, even though we do have these, these mental health issues, it can be so different with the each child that you have. Exactly. Which is was my experience. Yeah, it's it's a weird, weird thing, the brain and the way our bodies work. So when I want to go back to when you were pregnant? Yeah. And you talked about having your you said it was your social worker, I think, yeah. So you had support during your pregnancy. And so me being me and wanting to be in control and prepare for postpartum, I did go through a very informal postpartum planning, it was my way of being in control. And really, it was just a symptom of my anxiety. But it worked out well in the sense that I had, I had reached out to Gidget foundation, so digit house, they have their free talk therapy, during pregnancy and postpartum. So I reached out and I got on the waitlist for that. And I was able to speak to a psychologist throughout my pregnancy and postpartum one who was obviously well versed in maternal mental health. And through my obstetrician, she was phenomenal. I know so many people have not so great experiences I had, I had a wonderful one who was constantly checking in on my mental health and, okay, so at the hospital, I gave birth, she referred me to the social worker. So it's an obstetric social worker who's part of the hospital, my OB referred me through there, just just to make sure that I had like a safety net, just in case. And so I went to speak to that social worker just once give her a rundown of my history. It wasn't until we got closer to birth, that I was scared of the birth that my OB coordinated with her to be present at the time of the birth. And then obviously, she became such a key part in my postpartum my early postpartum while I was in hospital having that acute episode, she was the one who got me into the mother and baby unit, which I didn't even know existed. So I'm, I had that safety net in a way, which, you know, again, I cannot imagine where I would be. I know where I'd be. I don't want to imagine it. If it weren't for her, or even my OB to actually put me in contact with her, someone who knows maternal mental health and knows the services and support systems that are available to catch you when you fall. So, yeah, it's when I was saying before, I'm from Gambia, we're a small town. They say we're, we're the second largest city, and I say city in inverted commas. Because we're not a city. We're we're a large country. 10 second largest outside of Adelaide, like in Australia, which is quite scary. I mean, it is. Yeah. Got it. You can't compare the City of South Australia today via the capital city. Which is kind of nice to do. But yeah, I had no idea what's Ever since we had or didn't have, I just presumed we really didn't have anything down here. And it wasn't until that I needed them that all of a sudden you discover all this stuff. And I sort of I didn't have when, when my first child, I was sort of diagnosed after the fact, a few years later of having personnel depression, because I basically slipped through the cracks, because I wasn't giving them the answers that they needed for the takeoff checklist. Basically, I didn't fit the criteria. And unfortunately, there was wasn't the, you know, the services or the right people at the right time to ask questions, always really struggling. And it's not just because basically, I was trying to justify it. I was like, Oh, I'm just having a bad day. You know, I just haven't had a lot of sleep. I was in complete denial, and was my husband that said to me, I think you've got that thing that they talked about it. Any NATO class, I'm like, No, I don't I've just, you know, it's just a crap day. But it wasn't just a crap day. And it was really funny A Few Years Later. Not funny, but, you know, ironic using my gynecologist who was I kept saying, you know, between my babies, because I was having my Rainer, and then having that removed and all that and, and he said, Oh, yeah, sounds like you had some postnatal depression, or that's something that could have been solved with one, one tablet a day. And I just went off for God's sake. Just the other night, it was not that he was belittling, it was basically saying we could have fixed that we could have. Actually, nobody realized, you know? Yeah, and so then it was really good. When I had my second child. Like you were saying about having things in place, mine was a little different. Because I don't know, it was seven years between my children. And I had this idea that I was going to be fine. Yeah, it's like denial again. And when I was pregnant, because I don't know, my pregnancy hormones kept me right up here. I was cracking along, everything was great. I was journaling about all the things I do differently, and everything was gonna be different. And when I got into the hospital, they, they've sort of red flag to my file. You know, watch out for this one, sort of, which was the best thing they ever do. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. When it happened, things moved really quickly. And really, in the right, you know, everyone knew what had to be done. Because it did happen to have even made it to three days after I heard you, it just went back. And I, I also had a very traumatic birth and, and got diagnosed with PTSD from the birth. But the whole birth trauma thing was a new thing. Because it wasn't two years after that, I actually realized that that's what it was. And that was just through social media, following particular people and just went, Oh, I think that's what happened to me. And then I'd been vaccine was my counselor. Like for therapy and stuff, and I talked to her about it. And when I was really telling her my birth story, and she said, Oh, yeah, I don't want to diagnose you with something else. But yeah, you've got PTSD. And that's birth trauma and understood a lot. Like, oh, wow, just add it to the list. Just another thing to add Yeah. It's the weirdest thing. You just, some people just, you know, breeze through it, everything's great. Everything's fine. And you sort of think, like, I don't know, did you have an experience where you talked about not having the ideal birth? And do you ever feel like you've missed out? Did you ever feel completely, like almost jealous of other people that have got to have certain things, I went through a grieving process. And that grieving process actually lasted longer than that acute episode, I was in hospital. So I was in hospital until my son was six weeks old. That's when we were discharged the day after he turned six weeks old. And obviously, things weren't great, but I wasn't in that acute crisis state. I was back to maybe mild, moderate. And then, you know, once you're out of that distressed state, you can then work on therapy and all the skills that you had, that then starts to kick in. But then the grief hit until maybe my son was about six months old. And you know, I would my one of my friends had her baby boy. So I have a son. So she had a baby boy about three months after I did. And, you know, she had the vaginal birth she had the breastfeeding journey that I didn't. And yes, that's not to dismiss how hard motherhood is, but she had that newborn bubble. And I, I cried it. To put it bluntly, it felt like my heart broke into a million and pieces, because I just thought how much mental illness took away. You know, not just what I wanted, but it took away that newborn bubble, that breastfeeding experience, you know, the bonding that we're told, breastfeeding provides us it took away moments that I would never ever get back those first six weeks of my son's life, I would never get those back. And it took up until he was six months old for me to reconcile with that, and to Yeah, come to a place where I, you know, no matter how much I wanted to, I couldn't change what had happened. So in that up until he was six months old, that grieving process, I then reached stuck. I then wanted to reestablish breastfeeding and try re lactating. So I tried so hard at that I, you know, had the approval of, you know, the community nurse, and my psychologists, psychiatrists, because they said, Okay, you're in a different headspace, but I was still grieving. And in my head, reestablishing breastfeeding was my way of wanting to get back the time that I had lost, because if I just clung to breastfeeding as the answer to my problems, and it didn't work, which I knew it wouldn't work, probably for a few. I was, you know, you have to pump like seven times a day, 10 minutes each. So you know, it is just not happening when you've got a an infant and you're speeding, you know, playing, changing body, all of this, you know, and you need to eat yourself. And so it just wasn't happening, but I clung to it. And it wasn't until six months postpartum, that I just realized that even if it did work, even if I was able to reestablish breastfeeding, there was nothing that would change what had happened, there was nothing I could do to get that time back, even if it magically worked. And I was breastfeeding and we could enjoy this current time in this sense through breastfeeding. Those six weeks weren't coming back. And I needed to make peace with that and that grief was that like I said, it lasted a lot longer than even the acute episode and it was consuming it did a grief made me you know, suffer more than I already was. But yeah, there was that jealousy and there was that just I mean, I call it grief because it just I wanted so badly what they had not that I wanted to take it away from them, but I just wish I got Yeah. And no, I mean it's still even with me. One of my other friends had her beautiful baby girl about six weeks ago and you know, I didn't cry for a solid two months straight this time. I cried for a couple of hours but that just yeah, it it still hits you and you still think what did I miss out? You know, the last bit of my pregnancy that you know, you convince yourself you're not capable or you can't function and your anxiety is just in control. And you know, you just wish you was strong enough I guess I'm gonna use that in quotes to overcome your anxiety and be brave you know all that positivity. So you know, you wish you could just think it think your way out of it and have some positive affirmation. And it doesn't but you still hold on to that you know, you still think God I wish I could have just I wish I wasn't controlled by my anxiety or I wish I wasn't controlled by my mental health and because of that I missed out on some of the experience I wanted and it's not my fault it is an illness. But it still hurts it hurts like hell. And yeah, like I said I didn't like with my friend who had her boy at three months when I was three months postpartum I cried every single day for hours and hours and hours a day for maybe two three months. This time it was only a few hours but you know it that grief is mental illness takes away a lot from us you know and especially as a mom you miss out on on so much and your kids grow so quickly and in that six weeks I wasn't getting that time back you know and that's still something that eats away and sits with you and I don't know if I deliver not eat away at me but yeah, you know and that's okay. That's okay. I'm allowed to grieve that you know it's getting easier but yeah absolutely. You said how mental illness take so much away is that what's makes you really passionate about sharing your story. It's like you can, you can take this thing that's been so destroying and turn it into something. I don't want to say positive because it sounds cliche, but you know me like to sort of say, okay, so this has happened, this has been really shit really, really bad. But the silver lining is that maybe I can help someone else. Maybe I can, you know, has that been a factor in think so. But I think this was also my way of processing the grief and owning my story. You know, this was a strict like I said, I this is not the story, I want to be telling you about motherhood, I wish I had a very different story to be sharing. I wish I had the stories that my friends were sharing about their births and their newborn bubbles. And, yeah, I wish I had that. But this is my way of owning it. This is my way of acknowledging that I can't change those six weeks. And that's in it's hard. But I'm owning it. And by doing this by sharing my story, it's actually my way of processing my own bullshit. Processing my own grief and actually acknowledging, well this did happen. And I can, you know, try to sweep it under the rug, and, you know, pretend it didn't happen and just have it eat up my worth for the rest of my life, or I can own it. I can own that this was my experience, acknowledge that it wasn't what I wanted. And I can potentially do something with it that hopefully make someone else feel less alone so that they don't have to sit there in silence. Yes, they don't have to share their story with the world. But they can sit there and know that they aren't alone. And that this is shit, but that it does get better. Like I promise it gets better. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I think that's what kept me going with my second child is because I had that perspective of having one already and going. I know they grow. I know, it changes. I know, this isn't forever. That was a pretty important thing for me being stuck in that. Because the first time it was just like, oh my god, is this ever going to end? This is? Assuming Yeah, yeah. So hearing that is pretty important, I think to know that it's not always going to feel and you're not always going to have these emotions. You're not always. And it's okay. Like, even if you don't have mental ill health, it is okay to acknowledge that motherhood and especially that newborn stage can be shaped Yes, it can be awesome. It can also be really, really hot. And I think it's so important that we talk about that because there are mothers out there who feel alone, like yes, they might not have a mental illness, but they still feel like they're suffering on their own. We don't want anyone to feel like that. And that whole sort of pressure that society has on us that it's like we've touched on, it's got to be a certain way, mothers should be able to do it. And if you ever complain about how hard it is, oh, well, you wanted to have children, you know, this way that society just shuts lately completely, like, oh, but you wanted to have a job? Why are you complaining about your job? Like, it's the same bullshit, but we don't say that to someone who got a nine to five and is complaining in nine to five, you know, we, it is ridiculous, but I mean, that experience Yes, it you know, was a way to process my own stuff, but it also motherhood and the experience I went through helped me I guess, figure out my own values or the values will already there, but it was the way I it was kind of pushing me that I had to start to actually live by my values, which obviously influenced the work that I'm doing. Yes, I am doing podcasting now, but I've always been a writer. Yeah, I've always been into creative writing and storytelling, and, you know, I always wanted to write a book, but on no way that doesn't pay the bills. I need a nine to five. So you know, it's this third podcasting. It's actually my way of sharing stories like that journalism, that storytelling that interviewee you know, that's coming back to those values. And yes, you know, we don't want to sit here and say, Oh, you've gone through should experience Um, here's the silver lining, but my silver lining is that, you know, going through what I went through, I realize just how important it is to. Yeah, not to shut ourselves down and to just go through. Yeah, to prioritize what we feel is important. And yes, it doesn't bring in the bills. But it's still important that that doesn't make it any less important. Hmm, but mental health advocacy is something I've always wanted to do long before I became a mom. Yeah, storytelling was something I always wanted to do. So this platform has allowed me to do both. And that that's why I don't feel like I'm working like I mean, I can't even call it a job. Like I said, I don't get paid. But it feels it's work. But it doesn't feel like work to me. I wake up in the morning, and I want to do it, and go to sleep at night thinking about it again. And it feels important, and so I wouldn't. Yeah, the experience of what I went through, made me realize just yeah, that that direct show that purpose, that meaningfulness I guess, came through all of the shitty stuff. Yeah. Tell me about your writing. So, like I said, I only started to kind of see myself as a creative person recently. I've always been a creative child, though, like the witch. Yeah, I, I guess I forgot about that. You know, I was always doing drawing or cross writing. I'm always trying to make something. I mean, it would could be terrible, but I was doing it anyway. Yeah, you know. But then, you know, as you get older, and me being who I am, you need that praise that validation. And so you lose touch with that creativity, because it doesn't get you got a pluses or the ticks or the, you know, you don't get a job out of it, really. And so that led me down the path of, you know, wanting to pursue things that did get me that praise that did get me that a plus and that validation. So you think that you're not good at creativity, because you're not getting that. That to me, being me, I'm a perfectionist as well. But in my spare time I wrote, I wrote a lot. So outside of school or doing homework, that was my outlet to understand the world or whatever I was going through. But again, I never got that success. I can remember, like, as one of our school English teachers, she was an actual author. And she'd set up a book club at school. And I was so excited because I thought I just want to be part of this. And I'd written a novel when I was like, 13, or something. And so I submitted it to her. And she said, Rick, I'm not going to read it, because that wouldn't be fair. And I'm glad she did it. In hindsight, because it was absolute trash. I, you know, it kind of broke my heart a little because I saw I wanted her to read it. And I'd be famous author. And anyway, so she said, Why don't you submit a smaller piece of work? And you know, if it's good, we'll go into the book club, because I think you'll be great in the book club. So I submitted this piece of work to her and I didn't get into the book. So you know, it just, I guess all of that either. Just reinforces that I wasn't very good. You know, you don't get that praise, you don't get the you think you're not good at it. So you don't want to pursue it. Right. Like it's very discouraging. So yeah, I spent those teenage years telling myself I was so creative, I wasn't good at that. So I needed to be I needed to do things I was good at. I was good at I was actually very good at writing essays, probably the story writing helped with that. But, you know, I was excellent at writing essays, I'll toot my own horn there. Even at uni, I would get the high distinctions and things. So I pursued those lines of study and work because that's what got me the, the tick of approval, like, then that you know, if other people are telling me I'm good at it, then that's what I have to pursue. So I would always come back to writing though, you know, after school, I'd take little short courses or creative writing courses, certificates, or whatever. And I did so many of them because I just loved telling stories. And I thought the more courses I do, the better I'll get at it. You know, you want to be the best at it. You don't want to do it. Unless you're good at it. Yeah, yeah. It's that whole, I guess that's a societal thing. But yeah, that need for a job would just come and swallow up any creativity. So I shifted the focus from maybe writing to becoming a book editor, because that in my mind would be the closest I'd get to being in that field. And, you know, potentially could hypothetically do some writing around the nine to five kind of thing I even did. My university degree was in English Literature writing, linguistics, journalism edit, you know, I did all of that. And I loved it. Don't get me wrong, but of course, it was the essays and the, you know, the linguistics that got me. You know, the top of the class and the high distinctions but not the creative stuff. This is horrible. story. I did a writing work At university, it was the one creative writing unit I did. And I never did another one, we had to write a short story, bring it to class, and the class would workshop, the story with you, you know, provide feedback, potentially structure or character development. Anyway, I wrote a story about my own experience with mental illness. So in my early 20s, right. And it was received very simply. So, you know, I got told by one person that I was perpetuating the stereotypes of depression, because the character I had in the story was sobbing all day, and couldn't get up and work and go to, you know, what, couldn't get up and go to work. But at the time, that's what I was experiencing. In my early 20s, there was a point where my husband who was, who was my boyfriend at the time, he would have to help me leave the bed carrying me while I was sobbing to the shower, because I couldn't physically get up and go to work, you know, he would be there, he would help me wash my hair, he would dry my hair with the hairdryer because I just, I couldn't function, you know, and that was my experience. And so I thought I'd write about that. And that would be my, that was me processing my experience. And yeah, I I know, it's a cliche. And I know, that's not depression for everyone. Believe me, I've had the opposite end of depression, where you're just so numb, that there's no tears believe that I've had. But that was my experience. And I wanted to write about that short period of my life. And you know, I had the lecturer and tutor tell me, well, I shouldn't write about things I don't know about clearly, I didn't know what I was writing about. Obviously, this is just reinforcing that I shouldn't be a writer, I shouldn't be, you know, creative, I shouldn't be doing anything that I'm not good at, quote, unquote. I shouldn't write about things I clearly don't know anything. It was, it was my own personal. I mean, obviously, it wasn't very good. Clearly, everyone was telling me it wasn't very good, which is fine. But you know, as to maybe they weren't very good. Meeting me, I just, you know, unless I was getting that recognition that what I was doing was good and worthwhile and helping someone else or whatever, I didn't want to do it. So that then, you know, reinforced that I shouldn't be doing writing or anything creative. So that really pushed me into the editing and publishing. And I didn't do any more creative writing units, because I just thought, I'm not good at it. I'm, yeah, this isn't for me, I thought I want to do it. But if I'm not getting that feedback, then not this isn't for me, I'm not good at it, I'll do something I'm good at, which is the things that get you the a plus and the tickets. And you know, and I did don't get me wrong, I love editing, and publishing, I did a few courses around that as well. I have this fascination with the English language or with language in general. So I ended up getting a job at my university. I'm on Matt Lee from an hour, but I was an English language specialist. And I would edit documents and write glossary definitions. And I'd work in the data team and analyze data from that language point of view, rather than number seven. It was meaningful and fulfilling. And that was as close to creativity as I was gonna get. But it was still a real job in quote, marks, and I was enjoying it, potentially, because I was being praised for it, because I was good at it. And then obviously, becoming a mom, you know, your whole world and identity and opinion of yourself and values change. And, you know, I'm sitting here and it's like, yes, I would love that nine to five, but I want to do something that makes me excited to wake up in the morning that I'm doing something meaningful that I'm living to my values. So and again, I still don't see myself as a podcaster. Deep down my little my, my inner self still says sees myself Oh wants to see myself as a writer. Because that's how I've always wanted to see myself. Yeah. So you know, telling stories is a big part of what I do on Instagram, not just others, but my own and just little snippets here and there. And that that provides me the most. It's cathartic in a way for me, but yeah, that provides me the most meaningful and purposeful, you know, activity anyway, that's like I said, it's the I still don't see myself as a podcaster because I'm still figuring out but yeah, I guess now I I'm learning that I don't have to be great at something to enjoy doing it. And that's taking what don't get me wrong. I'm not 100% there yet, they'll still be a part of me that wants to be the best at everything and wants to know what I'm doing before actually do it. I don't want to learn by doing it because I don't want to be you know, it's that mentality that takes a while to get out of to break out. Oh, so like I said, I spent the last year just trying to figure out how to actually podcast and I would do so much and I do so much on the back end. So that actually now that I'm starting to podcast, it's coming easy, because I invested so much time into the back end But there was no way I was going to do it. At the start, at this time last year was actually when I set up my ABN and stuff. And anyway, but yeah, it. Yeah, it sounds ridiculous. But that's no. That's the thing that you're conscious of things that you want to improve or change. You know, that's, you know, a step ahead of most people, I think a lot of people go through life just oblivious to their behaviors or the way their behaviors affect others or things that they could, you know, change in their lives that would make life better for them. So, you know, good on Yeah, I know where I need to improve. Am I getting there slowly? Well, I get there, 100%, maybe not, I'm still, you know, those perfectionist tendencies that, you know that you hold on to that criticism, slowly unlearning that, but you know, and that's okay. I don't have to be perfect at not being. Yeah, a lot of what you're saying I can really resonate with. I mean, I think I'm a little bit older than you, I'm in my 40s. And I've got to a place now where I just don't give a shit of what people think anymore. And that is so different to the person I was growing up. I was so with what people thought that feedback was so important to me. You know, I, like you've said about situations where people have given you feedback that, you know, it wasn't what you wanted to hear, and it stopped you from doing things I've done that. And at this point in my life, I just think if I want to do something, I'll do it. And I don't care. So yeah, it's possible. It's possible and it's so freeing when you start caring what other people think it's a wonderful feeling it like you're just living your life the way you want to live it and, like, God, I would be, I'd be walking down the street as a teenager. And I would, I would tell myself, the stories in my head that are that person that just drove past in that car, they were judging my genes that they weren't the right. Like I would create all these things in my head. And then yeah, as you grew up, we just go, no, that didn't happen because people don't give a shit. Everyone's worried about themselves. Everyone's even if they were judging my genes. That's their problem. Yeah, exactly. Good. Yeah. No, it is. It's an amazing feeling. And you just think, My God, why couldn't I be like this when I was young? How much suffering did we have to go? To learn what we've learned? Now? You know that? Yeah. But the good side is that, you know, it's gonna be, you know, God willing, I live that long, but it's gonna be good next half of my life. Totally. And what a good example to set for your kids. Really? Oh, yes. Yeah, teaching them that it's okay to not actually care that other people will let you have to bend yourself over backwards to accommodate other people's. Whatever. Yeah, I think that that's a huge thing that we're unlearning and that we get to teach our children. Hmm. Yeah, I'm, I'm excited, I guess, for the future to see and hope that our kids don't carry that bullshit with them until they're in their 30s or 40s. Or whatever, that they can maybe live a little without that fear of judgment, or fear of upsetting someone else. Dramatic, you know, just by being themselves. Yeah, exactly. And making no apologies for how, how they want to dress and what music they want to listen to me. Ah, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. I talk to all my moms about this, this topic of mom guilt. And I find it really interesting. It's something that I'm, I don't know why I'm so interested in it. Because I hate it so much. And I wish you're allowed to be you just but yeah, what's your take on it? I mean, I do believe mom guilt is real. I haven't quite decided if it's based on you know, the way we compare ourselves or our unrealistic expectations that we have of motherhood, although unrealistic expectations society gives us about another. I don't know if it's that or if there is some intrinsic component to mom guilt, but it's definitely real and it does. rear its ugly head, I guess, in so many contexts. You know, there's so many shorts, you should be doing this, you should be doing that. And I, I'm guilty of it. I'm guilty of Mongo, I still feel like I should be doing more or spending more time with my son and you know, potentially if I wasn't working a little bit on the podcast, and maybe I could cook a better meal for him more, you know, whatever it is, but I'm also Learning. And again, this is a slow process, I'm learning to be self compassionate Sure, I could push myself beyond my, you know, human limits him to be better. But what would that wouldn't actually make the guilt go away or just make it appear in another way or in another form? Yeah, the context, there's no winning, you know, there's always going to be something better. There's always something going to be more you could be doing and then there's more sacrifices you make on yourself, and what's the cost? So I'm trying to learn to just, it's there, and it sucks. But I'm trying to keep it as background noise and trying not to let it control me because I don't think it would benefit myself or my son, or myself to be a mother who sacrifices 100% of my own wants and needs to be better, right? I don't think it's benefiting either of us. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So in one go, it's there and it sucks. But yeah, it's just learning to, I don't know, I don't like I said, I don't know where it comes from, or if it can ever go away, but I'm learning that if it's there, it can stay there, but I'm just gonna not try to feed into it or let it control my motherhood or my human experience, really, ya know, that it's so true. It's like when you say, you know, if you did do something, then something else would suffer. And then you feel guilty about that. And then if you do, then you feel guilty about that. It's like, it's just this constant juggling thing, you know, especially in motherhood, we talk about this work life balance, and I don't know if it actually exists, I think we're all just struggling to find that balance, or that ideal balance and really just doesn't exist, because you could be at work, you're feeling guilty, you're not at home, you're at home, you're feeling guilty, you're not working and there is or I could be exercise, or I should be doing this, I should be doing that. And there is no winning, there is no balance, because to have that balance, you've made that piece. And you know that you're doing 100% Yeah, do that. Is it possible? Yeah, it's impossible. So I'm, yeah, it's there. And it sucks. And I'm learning just to let it sit there and to just sit in that discomfort that it will exist, and I'm doing my best. And it will tell me, I could be doing more or I could be doing better, or that there is a different definition of best. Just trying to Yeah, let it just be let it lets myself sit with it and just do what I'm doing anyway. Yeah. Now, that's really good advice. I think that thing of being kind to ourselves, and not making ourselves feel guilty for feeling guilty, you know, just, you know, had an eye as long as you you'd like someone to put a post up the other day. And I just thought this is the epitome of life, you know, if you can take your child into bed, who's fed and loved. And, you know, I just think that we've made it you know, if your child wakes up in the morning with a smile on his face, and I don't know, I agree, because like you said, there are so many shoulds. And so social media just feeds into that or you should be bottle feeding or co sleeping or not put you shouldn't use a dummy you shouldn't use you shouldn't that and you get so caught up in doing it right and feeling like you're doing it wrong. But as you said, if your kids alive, if they're happy, you've got a roof over your head, you're doing everything bloody right? There is no wrong in that situation. And I wish we could say that more, we get so caught up on what we should or shouldn't be doing. And everyone's got a different opinion. And really, as you said, or as that quote said, I think I saw it yesterday on your stories, but you kids fed, they're happy there's a roof over your head, they're in a warm bed. You're the best mother for them, you're doing everything right, drown out everything else, because it's not doing any favors. Really. Hmm. Absolutely. And you also touched on that, that sort of context that that idea of martyrdom about giving up everything of yourself, that it's just like you just think I'd be crazy than what I am. To do. Every single moment of my time to my children. I just think, I don't know, a lot of people I talk to through the podcast, you know, creative women who weren't doing something before they had a child. And just because they happen to have a child doesn't mean that that creativity and that need to create and the outlet and the release and the regulation that they get from creating just dissipates you know, it's it's it's such a i don't i It's a ridiculous notion. For some women. Being a mother 100% of the time actually is fulfilling and meaningful to them and hats off to them. For other women. That's not the case. And we need to make space for both. There's no right or wrong, that you know, if you are 100% fulfilled in motherhood and you know, meeting the needs of your children, then go for it. No one is stopping you for other months. I know for me, I'm I don't know, if it's an only child thing, I'm an only child, I need my space. I don't care if it's to do nothing, I need my space from other people. And that includes my son, I love the kid, I love being able to see him smile and try new foods or play with him. Love him. I need my space. Yeah, one of your questions on the page was in terms of identity. And yes, I mean, I don't know if it's necessarily important for me to see myself as being more than just a mother. There's nothing wrong with being just a mother. But I always wanted to be a mother. But I think it's important for me to be someone who lives according to her values. And someone who acknowledges that I do have my own needs and my own wants, and that's okay. That's actually okay. I'd never really wanted to be a crew person. But I also didn't want to be a stay at home mom, I guess. And trying to find that balance between the two extremes was important, I guess. And I'm still trying to figure that out. I want to work but I also want to raise my son, but I also want to meet my own needs and live by my values and explore my own interests. And whether those changes, I just want to be able to do that. I don't know if I'll ever find that balance. But it's important to me that, you know, I meet my own needs. And it's important that my son can see that I am my own person. And, you know, if one day I want to be just a mother, or I'll devote 100% My time to them, I'll go with that, if that's intrinsically what I want to be doing. But I guess for me, it's important that I'm doing what intrinsically feels right. And just trying to balance being a mum, figuring out my own sheep, you know, healing and pursuing my own interests and giving myself the opportunity to do that without labeling it as good or bad. Without being able to judge myself or say, Well, I'm not good at it, I shouldn't do it, or it's not bringing in, you know, it's not paying the bills, therefore, I shouldn't even try, you know, it's just trying to fit it in, around all the other shit. You know, and I guess that probably goes to your other question about day to day. Creativity, like, how does that work? I mean, there is no structure to my day, it just whatever feels right. Like, if I feel like playing with my son, I'm gonna play with him. Or if I feel like doing podcast stuff, I'll work around his schedule. So for some background information here, my my husband's in the military. So up until two weeks ago, he was deployed for the whole year. So when my son, yeah, sorry, when my son was six months old, my husband got deployed out of Sydney. So he was still in Australia. But he was in intensive training, he was allowed to come home every blue moon for 24 hours. But then he had to go back. So yeah, I was solo parenting my son for a whole year up until two weeks ago. And I mean, I didn't go back to a, you know, my office job because with, I mean, I've been sick as well. I've had glandular fever for the last six months. So you know, everything that could happen could go wrong. This has but insane that I'm surprised myself with I guess, growing up, I always had that narrative in my head that I was not capable. I'm not capable of coping. I'm not an independent person. I need to rely on other people. I'm not an adult, you know, you tell yourself that stuff. And then you're thrown into the deep end and you're like, oh, shit, I can actually cope. Well, yes, we're not in Thrive mode. We're definitely in survival mode this year. But I did it. I actually did it. And I raised my son and not just that, I also got to work on something I was really, really passionate about. Yeah, in the background. Yeah. So in terms of day to day stuff with me and my son, it was just when he was having a nap, I would quickly try to do some podcasting stuff or when he'd go to bed at night. I'm I'm such a night owl. I get so much done. Night. But that was my me time I could, you know, sit down and figure out okay, what podcasting platform do I want to use or what's my calendar system that people can book through and I'll do my website. You know, I was just working on it piece by piece by piece and it's hard when you're in that moment because you think I'm not getting anywhere. But when you look back and it's like it she'd look at all this stuff that I've done, like, look, oh my god, it's actually I actually did all of that. And it was just little moments, little moments that I could just slowly build. And again, I wasn't getting feedback from that this was me doing something that felt right. And that was all the feedback or motivation that I needed is that it just felt purposeful. It felt meaningful. But yeah, I mean, that's not to say it was easy. My son, at eight months old, decided he didn't like sleeping in the car anymore. This was a kid who slept in a car. From the moment he was born, he was such a chill, calm, baby, all of a sudden, he wants to co sleep. So you know, there I am. Nine o'clock at night rocking him to sleep in my house, because he wouldn't sleep in the car, he wouldn't sleep alone, he had to be on me or near me. And then I was finally going to eat dinner once I was able to feel confident enough to you know, roll him off me. Then I could go be a human, have a shower, have dinner, and then I could go potty. And that's hard. It's hard solo parenting. And I'm so you know, lucky, my husband, I didn't have to go back to a nine to five job because you don't we could financially afford for me to be at home with our son, you know, working on my mental health, my physical health looking after my son who brought home every day care illness. He was there three days a week. And I swear this year, he was home more than he was actually at daycare because he'd been so sick. And then I'd catch whatever he caught. And it was just, we're definitely surviving. But just any moment that I could just do something for myself on top of, you know, having a shower or brushing my teeth and eating. Like, it was a hard game. It's a very hard. I've got so much respect for you seriously. Because what are my Lord days is my nightmare. Seriously, I just, I just I feel I always feel so incapable. When I when I had my first, like, real episode, I suppose. After my son was born, the thought in my head was, I can't do this. I can't do this. I don't know what to do. Which was ridiculous. Because I worked in childcare for years before I had him. So I knew how to look after children. You know, but it was just this irrational. I can't do this. And it took me a long, long time to even after I was, you know, medicated and things were honestly getting back to normal. Yeah, I was like, Ah, I can't know what I'm doing what's, you know, just this doubt, serious self doubt. And similar thing when my husband got COVID, earlier in the year, and so we're really trying to isolate him away from the rest of us. And my first thought was, oh, shit, I'm gonna say, How am I going to do it all myself, but then I actually did do it. And I was actually fine. And I think because, because I knew that there was no other option. It was like, I just had to do it. And so I actually didn't struggle that much. Because I was really accepting of the situation I was in and was like, okay, not saying, you know, it wasn't hard. And everything was wonderful. But I didn't let myself get to those extremes where I'd get to a complete meltdown. Because I knew that there was no saving me like, there was nothing. I mean, you know, and I think as well, we tell ourselves these stories that we can't do it. And yet when we're actually in a situation, yes, it's hard. But we've hate hearing I am like, what actually surviving and it's that build up? You know, I think a big part of my episode was, obviously I was in the hospital and all I could keep thinking was, how the fuck am I going to do this? When my husband's away next year? You know, this last? How the hell am I going to get through this? How am I going to cope? I can't even look after myself. How the hell am I going to look after the sun? I'm in this hospital. There's mothercraft nurses and pediatricians and psychologists around me all day was great. Am I gonna do this? Yeah, but I did. Yeah, I did. And we just figured it out. And it was hard. But we did it. But it's that build up and mental illnesses is mean, it is so mean to us. It tells us we can't do anything. It tells us we can't cope. It tells us we're incompetent. And that, you know, then you play into the other kids deserve better and Oh, but other people can cope. Why can't I? Yeah. And it's a bully. And really, the reality is we can actually do hard things and it sucks. Do not get me wrong. It sucks. But we can do it. And when you're in those moments, you just do it. There's no doubting yourself because you are actually doing it. Yeah, yeah, that was that was one of the words that I tell myself to help myself out of things when I'd get this. I can't do it. And I'd say no, but I am actually doing it right now. When I am doing it, you know, just to tell myself a different story and to trick my brain. Yes, we have to trick our brain because it's tricking us. Yes, yes. Yeah, it is. It's it is tricking us. And I know I, with my music I've, I've given my list posole depression, this persona of the wolf, I call it I've written I'm working on an album at the moment where the whole the whole album is about, it's called Wolf. And it's about the whole journey. And it's each song is a is a tiny little time frame of how I felt at different times. And it literally, that's how it felt it was consuming me it was this thing that wasn't me. Even though it was existing within me, and it was attacking me it was taking all the good things away, and it was making me scared and vulnerable. Sorry, I'm getting goose bumps. It's like, it's just this thing that inhabits you, you know, like people called the, the, you know, the black dog, you know, it's just, it's just this thing. And yeah, we can we can tell a different story. You know, it's, I mean, I don't That sounds so simplistic, but when you're in like you said before, when you're in the wind, it's really happening when you're in these episodes, you can't do anything, there is no, there is no rational thought there's no way of controlling but when you start to come out in the help of, you know, professionals and what have you, and then you can start to sort of rewire and, and what do they call that cognitive behavioral therapy, whatever it is, like telling yourself a different story, taking out the shirts, oh, we should do this, we should do. You know, that was one of the things someone said to me at one stage, take out the shirts, there's no shirt, it's you might do this or you might think about doing this or you know, just change the way around things simple things like that can make a massive difference. Going back to identity, not just motherhood, but mental illness, it feels like a part of you, it feels like who you are, it feels like your identity. So being able to separate yourself from those thoughts from that experiences is very hard to do. As you said, coming out of that you're able to look at it as something different, you're able to look at it as a wolf or whatever personification you give it. Because you're able to see that it's happening to you, but it's not you. And that's very, very powerful. And for me, that was where storytelling came in. The more I wrote about it, the more I tried to be poetic about my experience, or to just even just journal it I started to see it as not me, not my identity. And that's when your that's when you're healing. I know firsthand how easy it is to feel like this is who you are, and therefore it's you that's broken or it's it's never gonna get better because you're not getting better. You know, you you tell yourself these things that yeah, in terms of identity it Yeah, it's all consuming. Yeah. And that's the thing. There was no way when I was in the throes of the real depths. There was no way I was separating it out. I was there it was me you know, and it was the same gynecologist that I you know made the off the cuff comment Well, you could have just fixed it with one pill a day yes I pragmatic. He's he's an awesome bike and I have a great relationship with Him any he said he said you know, it's it's a chemical imbalance in your brain. That's what it is. It's a chemical imbalance in your brain. Yeah, and it was like right there you go. It's not me it's no it's I night and that really gave me the power to say I am not in control of this. I physically cannot. So I had this horrible experience between I had between having my two children where am I safe a friend I put the quotes because I don't see this person anymore or associated with it because of this next told me that that mental illness and depression don't exist because you should be able to keep yourself well by affirmations positive affirmations like that before. And I just You have no idea you have not experienced what I've experienced like and that was even before I had the big episode. The second child it's like Sure. I'm not dismissing the fact that you know if you're a generally well person, if you don't have massive chemical imbalances in your brain, sure keeping yourself you know, mentally well through positive thinking and eating well and exercising that that's great, but when you actually are so unwell severely unwell It's no amount of putting positive affirmations, it's good to save it. Like, it's not even on the radar night. And I think like you said, it's not to just dismiss the importance of that stuff eating well exercising, it is important. And it's very useful. Potentially, when you are in that mild category, you know, or if you had a bad experience, you know, and we're not even talking trauma, we're just talking something negative has happened in your life, going and doing those things. Even just a little talk therapy affirmation, they're so helpful, there's no doubting it. But there is a difference between, you know, feeling a little depressed, or a little anxious or depressed or a little anxious versus having the illness, there's a big difference. And again, it's not to invalidate those feelings, but the illness is something entirely different. And I'm, I'm with you, I see a lot of that on social media, I see a lot of all mental illness isn't real, or it's just a societal problem. And if we fix society would don't get me wrong. There are societal factors that do impact our mental health. It is an illness, like for God's sake, we need to stop invalidating it. Because this is the reason people don't get help. This is the reason stigma exists. There's so much so much misinformation about it. And sadly, this is the reason some people die. You're made to feel like it's your fault, you're positive. If you didn't do enough to prevent it, you didn't do enough to think positively, you didn't do enough to exercise. I was exercising four or five times a week during my pregnancy, I was eating well, pregnancy was physically the healthiest time in my entire life. I was also the most mentally unwell I ever was in my entire life. You know, we can throw these things out. And so you could just join I was journaling like we can do. I was seeing a psychologist, I was doing everything right, ticking all the boxes. It doesn't matter. It does not discriminate. And it is an illness. You know, give yourself some grace for that. Like it. Like I said before, I blamed myself a lot. I thought I'm doing everything right. I should have prevented this. It doesn't work like that. Yeah. How much more suffering Do we go through? Because we think of it they fought their way out of it all, but they just exercised and felt better. They went for a walk. Why isn't that fixing me? We suffer so much more because of this misinformation because of I don't know people, people aren't like this with physical illness. It's not like I'm gonna yell at my kidney for not producing enough insulin if I had diabetes. But we we dismiss anything in our mind because we think we have control over it. Really, we're only cognizant of what 10% Of our brain like it just does my head in that we still have these attitudes. It's 2022. Like, come on. But yeah, you still see it on social media, if you just take these vitamins, if you just work on your, you know, oh, you're clearly deficient in this might joke at me. Yes, having a balanced diet, having our, you know, vitamins and nutrients all important, but that is not the cure. Like we need to stop pushing it as the cure. Because it's not. Yeah, and yeah, I whenever I say stuff like that, I just think they that person who's wearing it, they have no idea. They actually have no idea. And they're seeing life in this fanciful sort of rose colored glasses sort of way. They've never suffered. No one ever struggled in that from actual mental illness, you know, and I just, I get so mad. I just have to unfollow people or block people. I just think there's no, there's no debating with people like that. They've got their heart ingrained views, they're not gonna listen to, you know, make writing a comment. But I do think sometimes when there's a big backlash to something in the media, like a celebrity said something, and everyone jumps on him. They're the times when people with these, you know, perhaps don't understand, have this glimpse into maybe understanding I don't know, like, I remember years ago, this has gone back ages Belkin was one of our killers, friends passed away through suicide. And he wrote this big thing on his Facebook. I'm sorry, you couldn't hold on for us. I'm sorry. It's like this had nothing to do with you. It had nothing to do with anybody else. And people jumped on him. And he and he was writing it from a point of view that he'd experienced seeing someone with depression. Right. And so people were saying, you obviously have never experienced this yourself. And it was a real big thing. And he kept turned around and said, I'm really sorry, didn't say, you know, and so moments like that, I sort of hold on to hope that other people will see that and go Oh, actually, maybe I don't understand this. Yeah, but yeah, in everyday stuff you There's no, there's no debating with these people that that's what they believe. And you're never going to change them. But I just hope, yeah, society. Yet it really pisses me off like it's done someone with a broken leg, you're not going to go along and kick their crutches away and say, Come on, you can control yourself fix your leg, you know? Yeah, I feel like sometimes going around with a T shirt. Like, I haven't been to where it's like, okay, so like, do I need a sign saying like, Be nicer to me? Like, I don't know, it just it shouldn't be that way. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I wouldn't wish it on those people. Because unfortunately, sometimes the only way you know is if you have gone through it personally. Yeah. But I mean, I wouldn't wish on them to know it. But yeah, unfortunately, there is still so much misinformation about mental health and so much bullshit, really so much that people don't know well, that they think they know. Yes, they think they know because they might have seen it, or they've had it or they felt a little bit depressed about something. One point in time, but it's very different from the illness, like very different. And I wish Yeah, I wish we didn't have to justify the illness. No one with diabetes has to I mean, sometimes people, you know, they weighed shame or whatever, oh, it's your own fault. It's not your fault. Like for God's sake, whether it's a physical illness or mental illness, we need to stop this shaming of people who aren't 100% Well, all the time, you know, it's not their own fault. It has is it something like gestational diabetes as well during pregnancy? There's so much blame and this mis misinformation that you caused it yourself. You weren't eating right enough. You weren't, you know, exercising, and it's nothing to do with that for God's sake. In terms of your support network, what does that look like for you? I mean, one of the best support networks if I can be honest, is the fact my son went to daycare like three days. That helped. You know, my mom and my dad have been an enormous help like practically, especially with my husband being away so they come help look after Pejic sorry, for my son punchy is what it is. nickname. Well, when I was pregnant, my bump we called it my punch. So it just the poor kid the name has just stuck. And even all my friends and family has punched doing my budget like the politics of tour. It stuck with him. But yeah, they all come over look after pajetta Yeah, I'm all look after some of the practical stuff around the house, especially when I was in the real real pits of glandular and I couldn't move, I was sleeping all day. And no matter how much I slept, I was still tired. You know, I was lucky my parents, they yesterday like an hour away in traffic, but they were still able to come over every now and then and help out and stay. And especially with both of us, me and being sick. Like, that was such a big help. I still have a psychologist. I still say my psychiatrist through the mother and baby unit Hospital, which is phenomenal. And yeah, obviously I had my husband via FaceTime and stuff, which I get a you know, it's not the same, but thank God for technology. Yeah, thank God, we have that stuff. So yeah, in a way I was. I was supported in that aspect. Maybe more. So for the practical stuff and the mental health stuff in terms of the artistic work creative stuff. And I still don't quite see myself as that just yet. We're working on that. I really don't think I had anyone to draw on. I don't have friends who really I don't know anyone who has their own business or who, you know, made a living out of something creative. So this is like I said, it's all very, very new to me, I'm still figuring this out. As I go. I'm teaching myself I'm learning. I mean, social media has been good in that sense that you create that community and you then are in touch with a lot of other women who are trying to be creative or they're trying to make a business out of something that they're passionate about. And so you do have that solidarity. Um, I guess none of us have it completely figured out but yeah, just doing the best we can and learning as we go. I like I said the support I've had has been very good I don't know, I've been very self taught. I guess I wish I wish I had someone to say how do I actually do this? So what the hell is an ABN? Like, either I'm really going from scratch. Yeah, yeah. I like that on social media. Like if I see if I see something, I think only 61 day. One of you think is like, how did you do that? I want to do that. Literally, my son's asleep in my arms, and I'm sitting there, whether it's two hours, however long he's having a nap, he won't move from my arms. I'll sit there on camera and just have a play, you know, and it's not perfect, but I'm just Oh, this looks good. I'm trying to do everything free, right? Like, I'm sure I could pay for extra or I could pay someone to do it for me, but I'm trying to do it all myself. I'm trying to do it as cheaply and freely as possible. So I'll just have a play. And if it looks alright, if I feel happy with it, then I'll post it. And yeah, I like I said, I wish I had someone just I just use this template or make my life a bit easier. But yeah, it's just figuring it out as I go. And if I'm playing while he's asleep, then I might learn something, or I might learn how not to do. I'm still learning either way. Really? Yeah. No, I love that. I think that's, that's awesome. I part of my experience of not wearing what people thought, I basically just jumped in and did it, because I had all my software from singing. So and I love editing. So there's that. But then same thing, like the things that you spent time on beforehand. I literally just did it by the seat of my pants, because I'm like, I really want to do this. And I'm going to do it right now. Yeah, so it's like, it can work either way you can make it work, however, it suits your personality. And I think for myself, I had to justify that, okay, if I want this to be real, then I have to know what I'm doing. And I have to do it. Like I have to put all the pieces together in the right order and do it slowly so that I can justify that this is going to be a valid thing. Not that I'm just I don't know, I mean, going to identity. I know this is such a stereotype. But you know, the whole the stereotype of Oh, you're just a mum, and you're working on a passion project while you're on maternity leave. I didn't want it to be just that I wanted to work against that narrative that, Oh, I get to, you know, play around with this passion project while my husband works a nine to five to financially support me so that I can work on this passion project. I really wanted to work against that narrative. And I wanted to be against that stereotype. And I wanted to be able to monetize and make it legit and real, not just something I'm slapping to get. I don't know, I wanted to be able to work against the stereotype and contribute to the family. I mean, I haven't done that yet. You know, not I haven't really challenged the stereotype, but in a way as well, sorry. You've mentioned on them the question she like the values we have as a society, on art and on creativity. And that narrative works against it. Right. Like we so I wanted to work against that stereotype. But I guess in doing so I'm just perpetuating the stereotype that creativity or women's work just doesn't matter unless it brings in money, you know? Yeah. And I think it is safe to say we just don't value art in society, which is ironic because we, we consume so much of it, whether it's art, whether it's listening to podcasts, or music, or watching movies, TV shows, even the design that goes into advertising, we consume so much of it, and yet we don't value the work behind it. Because it doesn't pay the bills. We are in a capitalist society unless they you know, we value competition, we value activities that can be monetized. But because it doesn't pay the bills, even I don't see myself as a creative person. Like I said, because I'm not really I'm not a real Podcast. I'm not a real writer, because that avenue of work is not bringing in money for me. At this point in time. As much as you know, somebody wants to sponsor me, I'll take it. Meaning to mean on the list and I'm doing it because it feels right. And I will go back to my job next month. But my nine to five job I should say, but I'm still going to be doing this and I've told my husband this is still a priority for me around mothering around my nine to five. Being able to share these stories and tell stories and advocate and educate about maternal mental health is something I hope to be doing. For the rest of my life. I will advocate for more mother and baby psychiatric hospitals. I think to the day I die because I don't think a lot unless something else happens in my life and that becomes the focus of my attention. That's my passion. You know, and I want I want to keep doing that. And I don't think if I stopped doing that, I don't think I'd be living authentically. As much as it doesn't bring in the bills. You know, I don't see it as real or important or valuable. Because it's not seen that way by other people because it's not bringing in money. And that's that's just what Yeah, so I'm yeah, I'm in this weird space of you know, not wanting to be the stereotypical mom on maternity leave just doing a passion project while hobbies at nine to five and then. But yeah, I'm, I guess in a way I'm perpetuating that because I'm because it's not bringing in money. I'm. Yeah. Yeah, it's such a minefield. Bullshit. Yeah, it's a frustrating one, that it's something that I've gotten more and more annoyed about. More I talk to people, and I've particularly on I've told this story a million times. So I'm sorry, if you've already heard this story. The, during the lockdown. And I say that I didn't really suffer too much. I wasn't like Melbourne was like, you know, the most lockdown city in the world or something. But we, we saw the sport continue. Yeah. All these these these AFL football as we're moving around the country continuing to play sport, and then money and for all the the TV companies with the right so you know, that was really important, apparently. So they kept going. But you know, all of the art stopped all of the gigs, all of the music, all that stuff. And it really annoyed me because like you said, we consume so much art and the the result of creativity of people. We're all sitting on our asses watching Netflix. I mean, who do you think made that? You know, like, it just really annoyed me. But that's how society views art and creativity. And like, ironically, to get through the lockdown, a lot of us turned to not necessarily creating but consuming at all. Yeah, like schools, like teachers would just say, Look, don't don't do all this maths homework, go paint a picture, go read a book, go do something creative and meaningful. And that was therapeutic. And we turned to that in those times when it was hard. And we know the value of it, we know how valuable it is on paper for our own therapy for our own meaningfulness for our own values and purpose. We know how valuable it is. But because there's not that monetary benefit, we don't value it as a society. So once locked down lifts, okay, we can all go back to normal and West, we're not going to prioritize art as therapy, or we're not going to, you know, look after our creative, you know, ourselves, there's so many different parts of ourselves that are practical self, our physical self, our creative stuff, when we're going to prioritize that part of ourselves. Because we just need to resume our, you know, nine to five activities, we need to contribute to the economy. Like, that's all that's seen as important. And I believe me, I understand why we have to go into lockdown to protect all of us, you know, I get it. It's still just, it's upsetting that there was some things that were prioritized over others. And you know, you do see society through a clear lens when you are in those situations where you see what we value. And ironically, we do value because that's what we were consuming. Yeah. That's not what society or our economy per se values. Because it's not got $1 attached to really, yeah, really frustrates me when you were growing up your mum, what sort of sort of role modeling did you get from your mom in terms of what a mother could look like? I suppose. I'm gonna I'm gonna bring up my grandmother here as well because I was very largely raised by my grandma. So my grandparents migrated from Italy in their 20s, I guess, they set up shop, they had kids. So in terms of mothering, from my grandmother's point of view, mothering was her whole life. Yeah. You know, you did everything for your children. You cooked for them, you cleaned for them. That was your Go. And I think as well, having that migrant background, you know, you do that for your kids so that they can go and succeed. So I guess mothering was her identity, or being a domestic worker, I guess, was the identity, that was her only role in life. But that's also a cultural thing, you know. And then, from my mother's perspective, my mother, you know, did go study and become that career woman. Because I guess, and I mean, maybe this is just my interpretation of it. But growing up with the migrant family, and that expectation that you have to do something with your life, they didn't suffer, they didn't sacrifice all of this for you to just not do it, you know, you want to succeed, you want to be good at what you're doing. And my mom was an excellent career woman. And I guess, as a mother was, I had those two extremes I had Korean woman and then I had the domestic and I'm, I guess, I don't know, where I see myself. Like I said, I'm trying to find that middle ground. That's not to say my mother wasn't mothering, or that my grandmother didn't have a job because she did have a job at some point. But in terms of the priorities, my own mother then carried the, I think, again, this is just my interpretation she carried that maybe the migrant mentality of you need to do everything for your children, my mother just did it in the sense of providing financially. Yeah, you know, it's you, she wanted me to go to a good school and to study and to work, you know, in order to do that it wasn't to stay at home, it was to go out and work and work her ass off, to be able to put me into private school or put, you know, just have that bit of life or have provide things that maybe she didn't have, you know, it's it's that cycle. And I don't know if it's a, I don't know, if it's a cultural thing, or a migrant thing, I don't know. But yeah, in terms of motherhood, I guess I had both examples of wanting to do everything for your child, but either way, whether it was through the home or through work, it was doing everything for your children, that was nice for you. And, yeah, I guess that that's something I'm trying to navigate, you know, I'm, I can genuinely say, I'm sorry, to my son, I'm not the mother, that's gonna do everything for him. You know, whether that's a good or bad thing I don't, I know that if I go down that road, that pressure will eat at me, I will not be an authentic person, and I will not be a healthy person. Because you know, even before I became a mother, you know, wanting to emulate that and have a career and push myself to my extremes. That's when the mental illness creeps in. Right? So I'm trying to find this balance between wanting to be the best mom I can for my son versus not sacrificing my sanity, or my passions, or my my soul. You know, I want to find that balance where, yes, my son is important. And I want him to feel important, and that I will do anything for him. But not at the cost of I don't know, I don't want to work until nine o'clock at night, or I don't want to just focus on the housework all day, every day. Like I want to find that balance. You're and I don't know what that looks like. I'm I'm figuring that out as I go. But yeah, yeah, I guess not. Motherhood was modeled like that. There was no creativity. There wasn't and, yeah, but that's okay. That was their experience. And that's what they did to survive. And, you know, obviously, I respect the work that they did, and how hard they worked for their children. You know, that's, that's the cultural attitude that I do want to take, I want my son to know, I worked hard so that he can have a roof of recital that, you know, we can then go out and play it, but I want also to enjoy the time with him. And not? Yeah, I don't know, I think this was probably the question that I struggled the most trying to think about. From your navigate that, do you think also in that you're, you're in context of working hard, is that working, and I feel like this, I feel like this for myself. So you may or may not feel like working hard on your own mental wellness, so you can be there for your child and you can meet their needs, in a way that you're happy with. And that, you know, is good for your child. I mean, that's a big priority for me. And it always has been before I became a mother, you know, with my prior experiences of mental health, I took my mental health very seriously. You know, I had been in therapy, probably since I was 16. Like just being able to work through that stuff. And I'd always said I didn't want to take it into motherhood. I didn't want my son to bear that burden. You Hmm. So I really focused on the skills and the therapy and the healing during my 20s. But I guess that kind of worked in a backwards way for me because it became that fixation. Like I said, at the start, pregnancy, I was consumed with planning for postpartum. And a big part of that was that first of all, I didn't want mental illness to get in the way of the earth or my parenting. But I also didn't want it to be something that my son inherited, I guess, by having that fixation it inevitably. Yeah, it worked against me, because I was, I was mentally ill. And I just didn't see it. I was so focused on postpartum that I just, I was really in denial about what I was going through through pregnancy. And, you know, it wasn't until I got to postpartum that I had that acute crisis episode that I was, you know, admitted to hospital that I was doing the best I could. And there's no such thing as 100% perfectly healed or recovered as much as I would like to think that or, as much as I held on to that belief that I could be cured and would never ever impact my son. I know now that healing, being imperfect, but still working on my healing is the best thing I can do for myself. It is absolutely best thing I can do for him in that working on myself acknowledging my own bullshit, being self aware, that is the best thing I can do for him not being perfect, like that perfectionism, or holding on to being perfect or cured or happy all the time would actually be more damaging to him. Then a mother who acknowledges her own shit, and is trying to work on it and apologizes. And like, that's what's gonna help him in the long run. Yeah. Yeah. And like, that's always been a priority, clearly, but now I'm approaching it from a different perspective. Yeah, no, I think like my eldest son's 14, and has his own issues with mental health. And I think it's really important to role model as a parent, that, you know, things are really hard. But if you're, if you put in the work, and you utilize the tools around you, and the things that you have access to, then that's really it is really important to it is you can't just sweep it under the rug, and you can't think everything's going to be fine. It's like you, you have to do the work. And it's as shitty as it is. And as horrible as it is. And he's had times where he's, he's hidden particular things from me, because he was like, Oh, I know, if I told you, I would have had to go back and talk to, like his counselor, he just didn't want to have to start the whole cycle. Again, it's like, this is what it is, it'll always be this, there'll be times in your life, where it will you rise up again, and you'll have to address it. You know, and I know, I've had times where I've finally found it very difficult to hide, you know, emotions, or episodes or things that I'm going through. And I sort of feel bad for that, because I sort of think my kids shouldn't have to bear the burden of, of, of my illness. At the same time, I sort of think this is our reality. And this is what would have happened, you know, 50 6070 years ago, everything was hidden. And that's probably why we have these issues with stigma and, and not understanding because it was so hidden away. So yeah, there's a balance there that I struggle with at times, but I think it is important that people know, and your kids know, maybe not to see it in all its glory. But you know, it's finding that balance between, you know, wanting to show, okay, this is, this is what it is, this is the reality versus making it their problem to solve, you know, we definitely don't want to do that. But we don't want to pretend that these things don't exist. But, you know, you're modeling to your son that if this does happen, you know, he knows where to turn, you are a safe place to turn to he will and He knows that you will understand. And you know, he's obviously seen you work on your mental health, so he knows, okay, I can do it too. And that, that is the best thing you can give to your kids. Honestly, it really is. And you know, it's not perfect, or it's not ideal, but you're not making it your son's problem. But you're showing him that it's okay to have mental ill health and that it's okay to talk about mental health and that we should be doing that. That's the only shot I'll ever say in my life is that we should be talking about mental health. Yes. Should be more of it. Yes. Yeah. And I think like, teenage teenage years, you know, through Tori, ously difficult to navigate regardless of any Other issues you've got. So it's like a no just talking, keeping the communication. Absolutely any kid will benefit from skills to help their emotional and mental health, even if they haven't, no mental illness, any of those skills are so valuable to any teenager because yeah, it's that hormonal thing. We want to sit there and say, Oh, it all has a reason. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's just our hormones go in flux. And that's what had happened to me as a kid. I had, you know, the, the anxiety as you know, as a child, but then when you get to your teenage years, hormones really kick in. And if he takes it to another level, you know, and it's all that's when, you know, the OCD and things really set in all those intrusive thoughts. You can't really ignore them anymore. Yeah. And it can be such a scary time because you're dealing with physical changes to your body, and then, you know, emotional and then mental and it's like, what's going on? And who can you talk to? And all this sort of stuff comes up? It's just here. And then social media, I guess these days? Oh, yeah. I got out of AZ without having phones and technology back in the day. I mean, I, I don't understand. I mean, this is probably going off topic. But there is such an attitude in society that what teenagers go through isn't real, or it's not important. And but you know, you'll get over it. It's, you know, and that attitude is so damaging. Yeah, I don't get it. Like we so quick to the little kid. And yes, you know, they might have their heart broken for the first time. And it's, you know, yes, it's different to, you know, something else you might go through as an adult, but that doesn't make it any less. You know, it's important for them. And, yeah, time in their life. That is the biggest thing. That's all I can think about. To shut that down. Yeah, I really dislike that. That attitude that a lot of people have, and you see it a lot on social media that all teenage. But anyway, that's going off topic. But yeah, that's frustrating. Yeah. And that that will contribute to mental unwellness. So of course, and then you get some motherboard and you're not meant to complain, because everyone's a mother and everyone does it and blah, blah, blah, like either we if we can actually support our kids when they're going through that hard stuff as kids as teenagers. Just yeah, it might not prevent a mental health episode, but it might just make it less severe. might make it easier to get through might make it quicker for them to you know, overcome. I guess it Yeah. Anyway, I'm yeah. My first degree was actually originally in early childhood. Ah, right. Yep. So yeah, that was yeah, it's always been important to me to see kids to see teenagers as people as valid. They have emotions, and that's okay. They're not Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that's, that's important. Yeah. And I'm sure there's a lot of moms listening that have, you know, children of different age. So, you know, it's good to share what you know, actually, speaking of this, I'm going off topic again. But my my, Alex, my 14 year old, the other day, I made a decision. That wasn't what we would have agreed with. And, and I said to my husband, we can't, we can't punish him too much for this because his brain physically hasn't evolved to the point where you can make decisions the same way we can. And I just thought, gee, we as a society, we've come a long way, because that's not how my parents would have traded. No, you should have known better. What were you thinking? Well, my frontal prefrontal cortex hasn't evolved yet. So. Yeah, and I mean, you know, we're trying to negotiate. I mean, our parents probably did the same. You know, it's either you, you treat us as kids all throughout, no, you're just a kid, you can't make a decision. Or, on the other extreme, you know, you want to be treated like an adult, why aren't you acting like an adult? You know, those two extremes that, you know, you're either treating them like a kid or you're expecting them to behave like an adult. We need to do better at treating them, or meeting them where they're at. Yeah, and I think we are getting better. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, there's so much science out there. Now, that tells us this stuff. Like the reason I it's in front of front of my mind. It's in your frontal lobe. Pardon. I was listening to the radio last night, and there was this, this. I don't know what they were talking about to start with. But then they got on to the brain and they said that your brain evolves or matures from the back to the front. Like it's that's what we know. And it's like, Oh, my God, no wonder I made foolish decisions as a teenager. Like it just it there. The science is there to back it, you know, and you know, it's you can't argue with that. I feel like You know, we've got all these other tools in these, this information at our disposal now to be able to treat, you know, people of different ages with appropriate, you know, responses, you know? And that's why I'm mixed. I'm excited to see the next generation grow up. Oh, yes, they'll have been parented very differently. And I'm actually looking for I'm hoping I'm hopeful for them that they don't know that things are better for them that they're easier for them. That's all you want for your kids you want. What's better for them either. Anyway? Yeah, no, that's fair enough. Can you just give me a sec? I've just heard a knock on my door. Oh, sure. Please. Come nice. Hello, Dolly. I'm going really good to come say hello. Yeah. This is Rebecca. You've said a little bit. Nice to meet you. degree. This is my little. Oh, he's a champ. He's so funny. He often does call in and say hello to people. Yes, shut the door. He's gone yeah. And thank you for this space, I think it's so important we talk about, you know, not just creativity, but as a mother, you know, being able to because that's, you know, that's the job being a mom, we're meant to do that. 100% of the time, and yet, where people? Yeah, so being able to talk about, you know, how we find that balance, or whether we can actually find that balance or how we do it, you know, being able to talk about that I think is so important, because there is still so much guilt, there is still so much shame. If you're, you know, I could be doing more, I should be doing more. But that person's doing that, why aren't I you know, and we beat ourselves up and at what cost? You know, so I got on you for doing this and encouraging all of us really to keep doing what feels right. Yeah, thank you so much. Is there anything else that you'd like to mention or share and you did say about, you're heading back to work, but this isn't going to stop for you. This is a, this is your passion, and you're going to keep doing this, which is I want to I want to get to a point obviously, where I can phase out of, you know, the nine to five, and I can work on this, I guess full time and you know, get paid two. That would be the goal. And I mean, I've got my little it's like a mini vision board. I'd say like it's got all my plans. Like I want to write a book, you know, finally, one that's not crap. I want to Yeah, I want to keep working in this field, whatever that looks like, whether it's also pumping out workbooks, like coming from my background with journaling or storytelling and being able to you know, facilitate. Yes, it's not a cure and God I would never market it as a cure but okay, he's something that we can maybe work on that might it helped me hopefully it helps you a little bit to like that's the stuff I would love to be doing doing the podcast doing the social media stuff. Yeah, just those kind of digital work you know, he's some journaling prompts was that like something like, you know, I'd love to just phase out of the nine to five and be able to focus on this because I I love sharing these stories. You know, I I was really worried when I started podcasting and interviewing people but the more I'm doing it, the more I realize. Yeah, like as much it's it's sad and it's confronting, like just hearing those stories and knowing that someone out there is actually trusting me with their story with their vulnerable experience just means the world and I don't take that lightly. Yeah, and I want to be able to do that justice and I want to be able to help them, you know, be able to facilitate the sharing of that story because I know that's not easy. But also help out The people that they're not alone. So if I can somehow figure out a way to make this work, you know, make this an actual job, so to say, then I'll do it. And hopefully one day I'll see myself as a creative. I still see myself as that organized planner, because that's, that was so indoctrinated in me. It's what I did to function in this world, I guess up until this point. Maybe I'll just have to find a balance between the two parts of myself. But yeah, one day. I'm hoping that that'll be what I can do. I can work in order to facilitate that right. Now, good on you. I really hope you do. That would be so awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been so lovely to talk to you and to meet you. And to talk face to face. Yeah. And I mean, I saw your story submission for my podcast. I was like, When can I message her to say she can come on my plane? I feel like I have to go on yours first. Because we've been trying to organize it. Yeah, that'd be awesome. I'd love to share your story too. If you're comfortable. Absolutely. It'll be pleasure. I'd be honored to actually be Yeah, thank you. We can we can negotiate. That good audio. Thank you. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alemjo, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Kate Mildenhall Australian writer, podcaster and educator S2 Ep26 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Welcome back to 2022, Season 2. My first guest of the year Kate Mildenhall, a writer, educator and podcaster from Hurstbridge Victoria on Wurundjeri lands, and a mum of 2. Kate is the author of two novels. Her debut novel, Skylarking , (2016) was named in Readings Top Ten Fiction Books of 2016 and longlisted for Best Debut Fiction in The Indie Book Awards 2017 and the 2017 Voss Literary Prize and The Mother Fault (2020) which was Longlisted for the 2021 ABIA General Fiction Book of the Year and Shortlisted for the 2020 Aurealis Awards, Best Science Fiction Novel. Kate also co hosts The First Time podcast a podcast with fellow author Katherine Collette about the first time you publish a book, and she is currently working on her third novel and undertaking a PhD on creative process. We enjoy a lively chat about failure, creating in a covid world, judgement of mothers, how her mothering influences her writing and why everyone should think like a 40 year old woman. **This episode contains mentions of post natal depression* Kate website / Instagram Twitter @ katemildenhall Books mentioned Rufi Thorpe article - Mother, Writer, Monster, Maid Four Thousand Weeks - Oliver Burkeman The Divided Heart - Rachel Power Making Babies - Anne Enright Listen to Claudia Carvan read The Mother Fault on audible Purchase Kate's books here Podcast instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo - Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome back to season 220 22. My guest today is Kate Mildenhall, a writer, teacher and podcaster. From her speech Victoria orangerie lens, and a mom of two. Kate is the author of two novels her debut novel skylarking, released in 2016, and her most recent released the mother fault from 2020, Kate also co hosts the first time podcast with fellow author Catherine collet. About the first time he published a book, she's currently working on her third novel, as well as undertaking a PhD on creative process. Today, we enjoy a lively and fun chat about failure, creating in a COVID world judgment of mothers, how her mothering influences her writing, and why everyone should think like a 40 year old woman, I hope you enjoy. Thank you so much for coming on case. Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's delightful to chat to you. It's lovely to meet you. Let's share with the listeners. what your background is in what you create. Well, these days, I am a writer. So I've written a couple of books. And my last one was called the mother fault. My first was called skylarking. And I'm currently working on my third book and just added a PhD because you know, COVID times was like times to do crazy things, right? So I'm doing that so and beautifully at the moment. I'm getting to do that, you know, full time in whatever kind of capacity being a full time writer is what that looks like. I know, it looks like really different things for different people. But that's what I do. eautiful So, can you share what your new book is gonna be called? Are you still working on a time we're still working on that one. And I've actually just been away for a week, which says lots of things both about motherhood and guilt and Christmas and being an artist and to work on it. Because it's just been so crazy to try and work on creative projects during the homeschooling and the rest of it. I'm over here in Melbourne. And and I've exploded the book. I've I've I've done something quite radical with it. So that's fine. Just letting it simmer all the all the crazy things I've just done. But yeah, but it's been really fun. I've been working on that for about a year because the mother fault came out last year in the midst of of lockdown. So yes, I've been I've been working away. Oh my goodness. So what's your PhD? So the PhD is is it's really fun and exciting. It's at RMIT. And it's practice based. So it means that I get to do my writing. And I also am a podcaster. So I co host the first time podcast, which is interviews with writers. And a lot of just oversharing myself and my co host Katherine about our general publishing journeys. And, but I get to include all of that. So I get to include the my kind of interviewing and my obsession with creative process because that's what I am utterly obsessed with. So I'm and then my novel is kind of part of it as well. So it's a little bit different to a traditional kind of PhD. So I'm looking really particularly at journaling, and dealing with the kind of creative process and how writers do their thing how writers do their process. That sounds really fun. Like it sounds like it's just it's just a part of what you're going to be doing anyway. So it's not going to be like a tremendous I mean, I'm not saying it's going to be you know, hard to make your life anyway, but it sounds quite doable. Yes, and like it's almost like it's given it a kind of a shape all of the other work that I do you know sometimes when you're in a position and you can describe vibe, you know, this is my writing, this is the podcast and it all kind of links, you know, and having the PhD kind of around that goes, oh yeah, this is really validating to me, because it's a serious thing that I'm doing. Yeah. And also just community. Yeah, you know, I think one of the things that happens when you're writing often and might in before I was a teacher, so I was really used to having lots of people around me and a big collaborator. And so I have often found the writing process to be quite lonely. And so even just having the system of the PhD and colleagues and supervisors and to be able to part be part of that network already, like I'm in the six months in MIT, it's, that's wonderful. Yeah, so it's really meeting that need the that creative space that Yeah, to do so. Also, now the kids are really excited, cuz they like, oh, my gosh, you're gonna be adopted one day? Yes. So they're super pumped about that? Before we get to the kids, I know that was you gave me a beautiful segue there, but I'm gonna go take you back. Yeah. Did you do have you always been a writer? Or you know, when you? No, no, no. So I was at school, like, passionately into it kind of wanted to be a writer, wrote lots, you know, at high school and did the Friday anthology and won awards and things like that. And then I wanted to do this tape degree, Brian MIT writing and editing as, when I left, I went talk to the careers teacher about it. And apologies to people who've heard this story, if any of your listeners had, because I've told it so many times, but the TAFE their careers teacher said, Kate, Smart Girls don't do TAFE and basically said, don't do that course. And I was like, Ah, right. And, you know, not having not having kind of much goal of my own at that stage. I went off and did something else, which I promptly dropped out of, you know, after a year and went off traveling. But I went back and did that, that that course, eventually, which is the delightful thing, but no. So I went and traveled for a while, then I went back to uni and did teaching. And at that time, I kind of, I was writing a little bit like journaling a lot, but writing a little bit, and I, I put something in for a competition, and I didn't get anything, didn't, didn't get anything at all. And after all of these years of like, you know, winning things or getting commended in them. It was such a rude shock to me. I mean, I laugh at it. Now I tell this story to students because and they have a laugh at my expense. But I just I saw it as a huge failure and rejection. And I was like, Oh, I can't I can't write, I'm not going to write. And so I stopped. I stopped for like, all of these years, and I taught and you know, I was passionate about reading about teaching writing, and but I just I, other than my journal, I don't think that I wrote anything during all of those years. And then it was actually when my firstborn arrived that I felt compelled to write again. So yeah, so I writing wasn't, I never thought that I could be a writer when I grew up or that you know that that was a crazy outlandish kind of a thought. It's really interesting you say about that validation that you put that entry in, and it didn't get anything. And then that defines how you feel about your creativity. I had a similar experience years ago, because I used to do in a we had to do a Stanford's when we were proud of this group. And I was used to doing pretty well. And then I went in this larger competition and didn't even place and so I stopped performing. Because I'm not as good as I thought I was. You know, and for years, I let that define me that I wasn't, I wasn't as good as I thought I was. So I just went well, I must be very good anymore, isn't it? It's how do we it's ridiculous. I know. And, and heartbreaking. And often, when I'm talking about it with other writers, I'll say, you know, prepare for it and expect it and like get them in early, get as many values as you can eat early because I wasn't you know, I wasn't I hadn't developed any muscle in that area. So I so exactly like you say I just I did let it define me and like what a waste. I mean, I eventually came back to it. And I'm so glad and I think that you know, anyone who is an artist of any description probably has that kind of pulse in them that it's going to come out at some stage like you've got to make space for that at some stage or else it'll eat you up. And I'm so glad that it did. But I still think gosh, those, those wasted years in there as well. So these days, how do you view that kind of experience? Now? Like, if if you put yourself in something and you don't get it? How do you process that for yourself? That's such a good question. The, the, the last one that I had was actually, in the middle of the kind of process of the mother fault. I, I lost the original publisher and had to go and kind of start, start shipping it out again. And I was in, you know, I was broken for a little bit like it was it was rock bottom, I, I didn't think that I would be able to look at the manuscript again, I was hurt, and yet felt a lot of self loathing, I think. And what I realized during that period, was that I was going to do the damn thing anyway. You know, like that, I think that I had got to a point where I was like, Well, I don't care. I'm going to, you know, this, this book is kind of bigger than may sounds a bit wonky. But you know, we're in that sense, where you're like, I've got to see this thing through to the end, and see what it does. And so that was the thing, in the end that that got me through, and I think it's just layers, isn't it of rejection and failure along the way. I mean, you know, often, and you might be in the same position that, you know, people will say, Oh, yeah, but you your published like, How could anything ever go wrong from here, or you've got the thing, you know, you've already reached the goal, or you've been able to perform there or do that. And, and, I mean, the stakes just get higher, in a sense, and you just get rejected more publicly, with, with bigger stakes along the way. So yeah, yeah, that, that it's been a good, it's been a good learning process. For me, I think. And I just, I really do wish that I just failed more and failed more often. I think, too, when you're younger, no one sort of teaches you how to how to fail, like no one, no one says, Okay, now that now that you've lost, or they were better, or someone thought they were better, what how do you talk to yourself about that? Like, how do you do that, like, no one teaches so true. So you sort of know, just find your own way through. And unlike in both of our situations, it takes a long time. So you sort of think, gosh, if I hadn't done that earlier, what could I have achieved, you know, in all that time and space, instead of pushing things away, you know? Yeah, yeah. I agree. Teachers listening tapes. Had a flat. And that's I'm going on a tangent now. But that's the thing too, like, are we so afraid of those emotions that we don't want kids to lose? We that's why we give them everyone gets a for trying sticker and everyone gets Yeah, more than when we play pass the pass like kids parties. Everybody has to get a wrap up? You know, I know. And it's really hard. Everyone has to keep one has to be happy all the time. Yeah, I think that the hardest thing to do you find like sitting with your kids disappointment, and all those emotions that you can't fix, you know, something going on at school, and you just have to have to resist the impulse to try and fix it and make it make it better all the time. You know, and to take the discomfort away because it's, you know, you do have to feel all those horrible emotions and get and get used to them. That's thing if you don't have the opportunity to feel them, you could never work through them. So then all of a sudden you feel them and you go, what's this? I don't know what to do with this. And yeah, you deal with it in inappropriate ways. Like eating too much or drinking. Absolutely. All of the above. Oh, my gosh. Let's lean into your children. Tell us about your family. Okay, so I have I have two daughters. Gracie is my eldest. She's 10 going on 11 kind of you know, going on 19 And she is fiery and amazing. And then my youngest is Etta. And she's eight. Also fiery and amazing. And, you know, it feels very funny kinda I'm talking about them. At this point, I was actually really looking forward to, you know, to doing this because the book that I wrote is the last one is very much informed by my experience of motherhood. But you end up kind of packaging it in certain ways, like for the book world, you know, you package it in these kind of little sound bites. And, and in fact, the girls think it's hilarious because they were around so much when I was doing promo for the book, because we were all in lockdown. And they, they got really cross a couple of times, because they must have heard me say things like, you know, parenting is really hard. And I didn't like it all the time. Like, yeah, it's true, you know, and I'm gonna have to live with the fact that there's all these sound bites out in me talking about, you know, how kind of shit parenting has been at various times. But they are, they are glorious beings. We've just spent a lot of time together in the last 18 months. And, you know, it's kind of, I never realized the joy of watching them go off to their independent things, and all come back at the end of the day and be able to like, we've all done different things for the day is a very new and strange experience that I think only parents who've lived through this kind of last 18 months really understand. So they're my two. Yeah, they've done things during the day that you don't know about. That would be nice. Yeah, exactly. We're all really, really excited to tell each other about what? Oh, my goodness. So during that time, how did you manage to continue to do stuff during lockdown? Ah, we, you know, we didn't I think we just we just kept on failing beautifully. And when we first went in, so who even knows when that was maybe March, last year, I'm I'm sitting here in this little studio that my darling partner built for me in the backyard, and it was just finished, like, literally just finished the week before locked down. Where Of course, he also moved home and had to kind of write out do his work from home as well. He's a psych nurse. So he was kind of out and about, but also doing a lot of his work here. So this saved us having this actual separate space, because I used to work in the corner of the lantern. So I actually don't think that we would have survived at all, had we not had this. And the other beautiful thing was that because Adam, you know, his workplace was really good and quite flexible, so that he could do a lot of the homeschooling stuff in the mornings and then go out, you know, we just kind of juggled a bit between each other. And, and the kids, we live, we live kind of on the outskirts of Melbourne, there's a lot of trees, there's a big reserve behind us, like, I did feel extremely lucky that we had a bit more space around us. And, and we did you know, some of it, maybe the first two locked, it wasn't really, some of it was really lovely. And I think we did do that stuff of going, okay, we can have a fire in the backyard on a Wednesday night. And, you know, I would walk with one of the girls in the morning before they started just to give them a bit of space away from each other. And we did really pay attention to the flowers and the mushrooms and the birds and you know, so So for all that it was incredibly difficult. And there's also quite a few kids in our street. And we live in, you know, a little space where we could offer each other that support with other families and, you know, playing in the street, and across driveways and things like that. So I think really, we didn't you know, I lost a fair bit of work but but was still able to carry on, you know, we weren't in a really difficult kind of position with our jobs, and Adam kept his job. So for all those things, I think, you know, we were in incredibly, incredibly lucky. But also, as I said, to all of my mates and all of our WhatsApp threads, who had kids, you know, as we all kind of know, you know, we would all spiral down at certain points and just say like, I can't do this, I cannot do it anymore. I can't because it was never part of the deal that we signed up for right as parents, especially when then especially when you've already sent them out into the world and off to school and the rest of it like to suddenly have these big, curious, active social kids home with you all the time. And we're just we're just not equipped to provide everything that was partly out of the better the deal. Oh, man, look, hats off to you guys over there like we've we've had Touchwood we've had nothing as extreme as that. So yeah, you guys were often in our thoughts over here, all the Melbourne people, it's just unreal what you've been through. So, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, it's sad, and to be able to maintain your creativity maintain. Yeah, and I think creativity, you know, at times, and I've talked about this with a few friends in the writing world. You know, I was like, oh, gosh, maybe I should just go and train, retrain, I'll retrain to be like, a personal care attendant, or, you know, like, if there was that sense of, like, what is the point of doing my art in, you know, in a burning world, in a burning world, in a world that's collapsing, and so there was that pressure, but also the kind of focus or deep work that I find I need to do creative work just wasn't there, you know, I couldn't you at any stage knew you're going to be interrupted, couldn't get purchase on any kind of thought to go deep on it, I am often need to go away, or that's the way that I've done my kind of writing practice is that a few times a year, when it works, I'll go away for a few days, either with a writing group or on my own and, and go really deep on it. And that's where I find you know, I have real breakthrough, so to not have any of that, but also to not have any of that kind of friction of being out in the world, you know, and, and seeing people or interacting with people or observing things, or being able to go to the ocean, or all the things that would normally fill me up so that I have some kind of something to give some output. Whereas I felt like what what do I possibly have? I've been inside my house, with my children, you know, worrying and that anxious, you know, that kind of being in lizard brain mode of at any stage about that uncertainty, but also thinking? Am I supposed to panic now? How am I protecting my children, you know, and being fearful of other people, for the first time was a very strange kind of thing. And I think it'll take a while for us all to get to the other side of that. Hmm, absolutely. It's sort of I had a moment where I was going for a walk one day, and all of a sudden, I just thought, oh, shit, has that person got COVID? Like, I was just starting to panic. And I felt myself sort of shiver and, and I just sort of backed up and went home real quick. I thought, this is a horrible thing to be thinking. Yeah, well, but it was like, and then every time you turn the telly on everything on the radio, you just couldn't escape it. And it was just disastrous. So that's when I basically came into my studio and started music, more music stuff, I just had to get out of the current world and go back into a different world. So you found it. So you could do that. You could then put your energy into that space. Yeah, that's I basically had to, I use it as an escape. Maybe. I just had to end. What I ended up doing was I look, I was I was listening to a lot of older music, I think to take myself out of the current time space to Yes, yes. So I started doing covers of, of older songs. And I ended up releasing them all because it was like, I created different versions of the songs, got different backings, got a piano player, change the tempo, all this stuff. And it was sort of my way of looking back on it. Now. I don't think I realized at the time, but, but making sure that things were different. That changing. I didn't like what was happening. So I was changing it in some way. You know, I love that. Yeah. It's really that's the first time I've actually articulated that out loud. That's really interesting. Well, it's very profound. You mentioned before about your mother's hope novel, now you write fiction. So yeah, at school, I could never remember the difference. That's your struggle. I'm just, yeah, fiction made up, which means it's made up. But you mentioned that your mothering role had a lot of influence over that. So what sort of themes were you exploring in the book and I apologize, I haven't read your books. No, absolutely. Read say that. Because I I'm not a very good reader. I don't like to sit still and read. Isn't that terrible? No, not at all. Not at all. Then they, the mother fault is a it's a kind of a thriller. It said in the very near future, and it's about a woman MYM, who's got two kids, Sen. Sam and when the novel opens, her husband, Ben has gone missing on an overseas mine site. And in this very near future, Australia, everyone has tracking chips in their hands. But he's offline, they can't work out where he is. And very quickly, she's told to stay where she is, and not to investigate it any further. And so she does. So she does, because they kind of threatened to take her kids away from her. And she says stuff this, I'm gonna go and find him. And so she goes on the run. So she crosses Australia, with the two kids and then gets on a yacht and, and sails to Indonesia to try and search for him. So, you know, where the idea came from. My first book was historical fiction, so nothing at all in this kind of world. But when I finished skylarking, I was kind of sitting with this idea of the kids at that stage. Maybe Esther was like, two and Gracie was four, I think. And I was deep in that bit that those trenches where you like, wow. Not at school yet. So you're doing that kind of childcare, kinder, you know, crazy run every day is no more than kind of two hour, lots of anything. And I, and still that period, where it's just really hard. It's just really hard, you haven't I hadn't kind of totally I'd had this moment when the book came out of kind of re re identifying as, as, as a writer, and while I'm a professional out in this world, but also, then I just come home, and it's just, you know, back to packing snacks and feeling guilty about them not being organic, and the rest of it. And so there was that stretch, there was that kind of huge amount of feelings, both positive feelings, I adore these kids, I will do anything for these kids, I would kill for these kids at the same time as sometimes wanting to run away. So there was those feelings that I had. And at the same time, it was very deep in the political kind of craziness of the asylum seeker debate, and which, of course, we haven't at all fixed or done anything good about in this country. And so I was kind of like having that daily thing of the news of watching, particularly women who were, you know, crossing oceans in really unsafe ways to try and make their kids safe. At the same time going, I just want to run away from my kids like, how, how are these two? How can I reconcile these feelings? Yeah, so for that reason, you know, over time, I realized that I wanted to write about a woman, you know, on the run, trying to kind of protect our kids, but also trying to make sense of who she is, and what she's allowed to want. Now that she's a mother, and is she allowed to want the things that she used to want. She you know, she has a kind of crazy affair with an ex lover on the boat, in, in the book, not not a real spoiler, because lots of people talk about it when they read the book. And, you know, it was that kind of thing. And people have got cross, like, it's one of the things in the book that people are really cross about. Because that, I think, when we, when we look at mothers in fiction, and mothers in general, in society, we have all these expectations of how they're supposed to behave and how they're supposed to feel, and what they're supposed to prioritize. And if you kind of, you know, poke the bear, I suppose, and say, well, maybe this isn't what, what we want, or what we always want, and maybe it's complicated. You can get some big responses out of people. So, you know, that's what I kind of wrote in my, my feelings. I also, you know, there's a kind of thread of, it's not named, but postpartum depression, which I think I probably had but never really understood. The first time around with my first with my first daughter. Yeah, so everything, all of the feelings, all of the feelings, I kind of composited into the book. Did you find that was the way view of you're dealing with that stuff? Like you use that as a way to work through things? Yeah, I do think so. I think I was so compelled at that point to write about the motherhood experience, and in a way where I really wanted him to be kind of this superhero figure. And in fact, beautifully a couple of reviewers have kind of commented that you know, like, she's the kind of Jack Reacher of she's just like mum version of Jack Reacher and I love that. I love that because it was about it. saying, you know, I definitely don't have any answers in there. But, but being able to talk about it and being able to look at this idea that instead of, instead of what I feel like there's some pressure to do, which is to say, oh, okay, I'm a mum now. And so now I do things in a, in a mum way, like, I erase this kind of version of myself that was there before, which, it just seems so crazy, but I think to a level where or compelled to do that a little bit like, okay, you know, now we do things this way. And, and it was great to be able to examine this, this feeling of going on, I am still that young version of myself too. As part of it, I went on a yacht, I'd never been on a yacht before. And I, I crude, I volunteered to crew on a yacht, from Darwin to Indonesia, in a race. And, like, it was, it was crazy. It was one of the craziest things I've ever done. And it was incredible. And part of what was incredible about it is that it was scary, you know, and, and I, I reached new levels of fear. And when I was underneath, you know, at one night in my cabin, before, when I came off the late shift and thinking, we're going, you know, this boat is going to tip over which of course, that's not what happens. But if you think I'm gonna die in this boat, and that's going to be ridiculous. And my daughters are going to think, Oh, Mom was doing this stupid research for a stupid book. And she drowned in the middle of the table. It's a, but when I got to Amazon as well, I got to travel around a bit. I stayed there for a few extra days. And on my own, like traveling on my own, like I hadn't, you know, kind of really ever, but also, I remembered that my 19 year old self who was a backpacker who, who could make a decision on the corner about which way they were going to go and not to reach consensus with an entire family about what they wanted to eat or what snack they wanted it. You know, it was remembering that kind of that kind of sense of myself, which I think was powerful. Oh, that's incredible. That's, that is so good. And that's when you had your sordid affair. Yeah, no, definitely not. That part wasn't true? Yeah, that's that is so cool. Because what you're saying about society's expectations of what a mother should be? I feel like that is that that's what seems to drive the mom guilt. I think it's like, you see, or you do a post on your socials or whatever, or you see someone else's. And there's all these comments and you think, across what are we supposed to be doing then? Are we supposed to be spending time with the kids? And we're not supposed to be spending time? Are we supposed to be going getting our hair done? Without? Like, it's all this constant? Yes. Judgment. Yeah. Yeah. How do you do that? So I think, you know, I actually had a gorgeous, gorgeous dinner last night with, with very old friends that I went to school with. And, you know, as always, as we talk about work and life, and our marriages and our kids, you know, we were commenting and we've all just we're in the the years of old turning 40 that we've just reached part where we an excuse the language, you can put a language you want to have no fucks left to give. And, you know, but but we were commenting, like how that's been a slow process, and that in all those early years, like, all those things, am I packing the right snacks? How many cakes? Should I bake for the cake store? Should I be on the Kinder committee? Should I you know, how will we how are we approaching this way of parenting the kids like, just constant self judgment, constant comparison? And then additionally, if you're a creative, so you've got all that world over there, and then if you're a creative, you've also got the like, how much of myself can I give to my parenting and how much of myself can I can I keep over for my art and how selfish I was just rereading this amazing article by roofie thought which I'll send through to you. It's called Mother writer monster made and it was something that I was really touchstone for me while I was writing the book, and it's about her kind of really grappling with this idea of, I think it's Jenny awful, who says about being an art monster, like, you know, that, that, that there's this sense that throughout history, you know, all of the, you know, the old white male writers like they just set up in their studios or whatever their attics writing while they had a wife to do everything else, they didn't see their children, they could, they could spend all of their energy, all of their intellectual space, all of it on, on doing their work. And I don't, I don't want to do that, like I, I do want to kind of be involved and go down and see the carols at lunchtime and do those things. Like I feel very lucky that it's worked out in a way that I do get to be present. But also sometimes I do not sometimes I want to go away for two weeks and work on my book and forget, honestly, forget for a minute that I have children, because I think part of it is that that enormous part of our brain, which is constantly, constantly with the kids somewhere, you know, worrying about or just ticking over slightly, you know, have they got something today? Have they got that bag, all that present that I need to get, you know, and then and then the biggest thing is, are they happy? Have we made the right decision? Should we send them to an alternative school sheet, you know, all of the things that just wind around in your head all the time? And sometimes I think, Wow, if I? What could I do with that space? You know, what can I do with that space? And I think I had the most I had the beautiful kind of opportunity to interview Helen Garner for our podcast. A couple of weeks back, you bring that up? Well, it was incredible. But you know what I had? I you know, I've read her for so long. And I asked her about why she hasn't had to answer the motherhood questions so much. I mean, she talks about motherhood in her journals, particularly, but I was kind of wondering whether it was just my age that she did get asked that, you know, maybe when she first published monkey grip, and she says, this most glorious thing about, you know, when she had her daughter who's about to turn 50. So that gives you a sense, or who's a bit older than 50, I think. She said we didn't have a choice. Like it wasn't a decision to make, we just had kids, there was no anxiety about it, there was no thinking that it was a choice. And she's she tells this beautiful story about you know, for better or for worse that basically she kind of strode out into life. And she, she told her daughter to, you know, to kind of keep up. And she and she, you know, typical Garner always says, I don't know if that was the right way to do it. But that's how I could do it. And I and and she acknowledges also that there's just an an incredibly different level of anxiety around even the decision to have children now, which has made it all the more complicated. Think, yeah, because everything is a decision and you're so conscious about what am I saying? Yes to what am I taking away from my kids? Should I just be sitting here kind of being around for them? Or should I go out and do the thing that I really want to do, which takes me away from them, but, you know, maybe in 20 years, they're going to say, Gee, mom really did what she loved. You know, that's what you have to kind of hope right? across you. Be in therapy talking about us? Exactly, exactly. We can I mean, we can't do it. Right. You know, there's ways that we can, I suppose, try and mitigate against a failure and really bad ways every day for them. But I, I have got better we talked about failure before I've also got better at realizing that um, you know, I'm going to stuff this gig up this parenting gig up constantly, constantly, I'll stuff it up and, and being able to say that to the kids as well, you know, maybe is, is one way of getting through it. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I wasn't even. You mentioned, do you have girls have heard you say comments like that, while you're at home doing you your book launch? Is it important to you that they actually see that you are going out and doing stuff? I don't want to say not just being a mom, because there's no Yeah, being a mom? Of course, you're I'm hearing that. Yeah, no, it really is. And you know, the first time that that was truly validating, so I went on mat leave from at that stage. I was working in this at the State Library doing education there. And I went on mat leave. And that's when I realized I think I said before, you know, when Gracie was born, I just felt this extraordinary urge to write again and it kind of came at me in different ways. I tried to join a local writing group, it didn't work then you know, and not until Esther was born. Did I really go Okay, that's it. I'm gonna I'm going back to uni. I'm going to do it. And which led to some of the first kind of guy games that the kids played when they were, you know, doing imaginary play, were picking up laptop bags and going to you playing going to uni. And I thought I remember thinking, Oh, this is a good thing, let you know, like that they are seeing me do this, that it's this kind of crazy working life that I have. But they're, you know, incredibly proud of it. They like googling me, they think that's really fun. But, you know, and so they liked that part of it. On the other hand, it you know, at some point they will, maybe they will read, the mother felt and that's terrifying. Like, I think I will feel really unscanned by that process, because I you know, it has, it is really revealing of the fact that sometimes you don't want to have to be both, you don't want to have to be a mother and artist and friend, and you know, partner and all of those things. You just like, just give me some space, just do one thing. But But I also think I've tried to be really open, the kids have seen me at rock bottom, the kids have seen me on the days where I've had to close the door and have a cry and say, just let me have a cry, Nia, you know, I need I need time out. And for better or for worse. That's the kind of way that we've run with it. So hopefully, they will, you know, they will see that as an honest part. But I am conscious to that. You know, I haven't written memoir, and I think it must be really hard for people who are writing nonfiction and kind of living living their lives. And their children's stories far more openly. Like I'm conscious of that. And I do read with with close interest how people navigate talking about their kids, when they start to have a profile in terms of what their art does as well, I think that's just hard. I don't have any answers to that. Is you have to think you'd have to be so considerate of them. Have them exactly be so aware of. Yeah, it can be quite hurtful for them. You know, it's Yeah. And as they start to talk about, you know, I think one of the things that happened which is really funny in the process of it took me four years to write the mother fold is that, you know, Gracie, Gracie grew up, and I and so I changed the one of the characters se she actually grew older, I made her older in the course of it because it was suddenly became so fascinating talking with my daughter, you know, like, when they get to that part where they start, you know, you start having really interesting kind of conversations and they're curious and and they've kind of leveled up in the intellectual stakes. So much so that you think whoa, whoa, what have we got ourselves into here? This is a real little human who has like, really big thoughts about the world. So you know, that's interesting as well, to me, that's, that's wonderful. And I love their perspective or perspective on the world and the way that they can so throw you with their truthiness. Sometimes, oh, gosh, yeah. I work in childcare. That's That's my day job. And I see you get those. I'll never tire of the amazing things children really funny things, but things yes. Just makes you stop and think and go, Oh, my gosh, you're seeing the world in such a different way to me and it's wonderful. You know, it might pull yourself back of seeing this whole you know, where they're oblivious of so much stuff and it's wonderful love to be able to be like that again. Be overawed by all these big things that are happening and just be concentrating on this. This crayons not not the crown the next sharpening biggest thing in my world right now is to get that sharpener, or I'm not gonna be able to do what I need to do you know, just Yeah. Oh, just living so simply and in the moment, in the moment, not worrying about not worrying about you know, the possible trials that will come when they're teenagers. I love that they're doing it right. It's beautiful. I love that. Do you think that that huge desire and drive that you had to get back into your writing when when Gracie was a baby was that some of that born from sort of finding your, I don't wanna say, reclaiming your identity, but perhaps trying to discover who you were at that time. Like, I'm a mom, it's really interesting that mean for pre K, yeah, it was, you know, I had, I had done these little tiny baby steps to stepping away from what I thought was expected of me. So, you know, I thought that my parents were both teachers, while I had attempted to do this little kind of attempted at the end of school to do this, something else, you know, media, TV, whatever, it didn't work out, and I thought I will, you know, what you do as a, as a good member of societies that you work in nine to five job and you it's actually more than nine to five, because they were teachers. So it was kind of, you know, all consuming, and you do that really well and passionately, and then you, you know, you have a partner and you get married and, and buy a house and, you know, go camping and all the things like I was really like, this is what you do with your life. And when I had this opportunity to go to the State Library to work for under secondment kind of thing just for for three months. And suddenly I was like, Oh, wow. Like, the world is not just like a school, you know, like, there are other people and they have better like work life balance than I do, you know, and all of this kind of stuff. So I started unhooking myself a little bit from what I thought was expected of me. And then the shock of being a parent. And, you know, it was we had, we were 10 days late, Gracie was breached out to have an emergency cease, like it was not, it wasn't how we planned it at all. So it was all a bit of a shock. And in the first six months after Grace's birth, I lost two grandparents, both who have whom I was really close to. So it was kind of just a bit of a shitshow. And I think I found the capacity to write things down. Kind of hilly or like that there was this enormous force, you know, that visceral kind of thing, when you when the kids are born, you're kind of leaking, no one tells you how much you're going to leak like you just kind of wet for, I don't know, for six months, maybe longer, you know, like and how much and the sleep deprivation and all of those the just the craziness of the world that you're in, as well as that feeling of being affronted that no one told you it was gonna be like this, even though they attempted to. But no one really, no one really kind of told you and then I think being out in the world, I clearly remember, you know, I had that I had a year's worth of maternity leave. And I remember like, I don't know, go into the park or something immediate friend for a coffee on a Wednesday, lunchtime and going like, Wednesday, lunchtime is a time in the world where people are not just at their work, like people are out there in the world. And they're doing other things. And I know it sounds really crazy now. But I really did have to deprogram myself to what I thought life was meant to be. And even in that first year after skylark in, you know, and since the mother faults come out, it's still a daily practice of going this is a kind of a life that I've made for myself, that makes me incredibly happy and fulfilled and it does not meet, it does not check all the boxes, like doesn't check the financial box doesn't check, you know, a lot of the boxes, and yet I am so much kind of mentally healthier and happier than I was when I was killing myself trying to you know, be a teacher lot of the writing of the mother fault is about geology as well, I did all of this incredible kind of reading about geology, and I think it is that, um, you know, you kind of, they shift you off, they shift the axis, you know, you kind of it's kind of like and start you're spinning in a in a different kind of direction. I think having having the kids and I don't think, you know, I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that they make you better or wise or anything like that, because I know plenty of incredible humans who are not parents and they are incredibly wise and amazing and have kind of lived the full breadth of experience. But I think in terms of what it does for you personally is that it kind of just kicks you off where you are, and you have to look at you have to look at everything differently and and in that act of shifting I think I think Matt label or you know if you're lucky enough to have it or at least that space where you're kind of recovering from actually birthing or or having a newborn in any way that because it it so dramatically changes your day to day that you are forced to to reconsider things and often I think it's a real shame like, especially for friends who, particularly the men, who didn't necessarily get any parental leave or things like that, like life just kind of rolled on. And that, that what I'm so grateful for is the big kind of abrupt shift that made me go, Okay. Well, how do I want this to be? You know, how do I want my life to be? And I've got, I've now got a little human on the outside of me, who's also my responsibility. But how do I want our life to look? Yeah, and without that, you probably would never have come to that realization, you would have just kept going along, doing it slowly along exactly. I just wanted to touch on, you mentioned about the mother for having like, the geology. And so the title of the book is that, I'll give you my take on it. Yeah, because I really loved English at school, and I loved analyzing things. And to this day, my sister, it drives me nuts. When we watch movies, I'm always picking up the love that she's in the light. He's higher than her. She's all this sort of, you know, so basically, this is my take on it. And I say, again, I haven't read it. So I can't say, but it's, to me, it's two things, right? It's the fault. As in fault, as in the mother does things wrong, whatever, you know, no, one's perfect. Finding your way, whatever. And then the fault of like, the geology, like the fault lines of the things that move the earth, sort of Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Brilliant. Absolutely perfect. And it's not, um, it's not a technical one, someone who did a read for me at one stage was like, Is this a technical term? Like the greatest, you know, fault line? And I said, No, I totally just made it up. But in terms of, but yes, absolutely refers to that. But the funniest thing was that when I kind of got to it, and and it is that one of those beautiful things we I, I came up with the title myself, because often, you know, often publicy and you know, the publisher will do a title for you, because the one that you've got is shocking. But um, so I did come up with it myself. And I called my mom. And I was like, Ma'am, I've got it. I think I've got the titles of calling the mother felt. And she said, Oh, you can't call it that. And I said, why? And she said, Ah, because it's always the mother's fault. Like people associate those words together all the time. And I was like, Yeah, I know. Like, that's the point. And so many people have said, booksellers, particularly that like, women will comment on it, whether or not they buy it, and sometimes they do, but they will comment on the phrasing of it, because, and, and it provokes a lot of feelings. And I think that I think, you know, we love to a fault. As well as all of that guilt stuff about, you know, me in the book, you know, is kind of like running across the country, you know, escaping from the government, these shady government forces who are looking after her looking after the kids, and she's still wearing, like, oh, maybe we've had takeaway too much this week, like, you know, you know, because that is, that is how the brain works, you know, that you're, you're in absolute kind of danger mode. And the other thing is that, you know, when, when I won't give away the ending in the book, the part that I often read out, too, is that towards the end of the book, when MIM kind of works out what her husband's been up to, and she's really cross and she says, You know, I would have liked to be a hero too, but I was at school pickup, you know, and that, that in the end is what happens to us, you know, like, that is, that is literally in a nutshell. Brilliant, yeah, you know, that you you could do anything you could do you could be anything, you know, that this the possibility of what we have available to us. And of course, part of that is also being a parent and, and that the possibilities that are opened up with that, and the kinds of highs of our our extraordinary, but also the day to day logistics of it are just shit. You know, they just really, and I'm sure some people enjoy it, but I do not. And I know lots of people who do not, and they take up time and brain space and energy and and if there was one thing that I think kind of delicious thing that came out of COVID and lock downs is this tendency, which I hope we can try and hold on to which is to say, okay, maybe we can just have a fire in the backyard on Wednesday night and not do 18 afterschool activities and go to every party and say yes, they have We think maybe we can just, you know, hold on to a little bit less to think that it's enough the way that we're doing things. And then we have space for those other big, crazy wild possibilities that we want for ourselves or for our families. That would be a nice thing. I think I totally, totally agree with that. I can recommend a book which I just listened to on as an audio book. It's called 4000 weeks. Oliver Berkman, I think his name is. And the premise is, if we live to AD, that's what we've got 4000 weeks, that's only, you know, 4000, Saturday nights, 4000, Sunday mornings, and it was kind of like, it was very confronting when I first started listening to it, but his premise is, you know, it's limited, it's finite our time here. So you got to be when you can't do everything. And we think we've been fed this lie that we can, particularly women, particularly in the last 20 years, you can do everything you can have you agree, you can be kids, you can look amazing, your house can look amazing. You can see all your friends, you can have a great marriage, like bullshit. Yeah, you actually just cannot get to doing this. Yeah. It's impossible. It is impossible. And, you know, the book, I keep saying to my partner, you know, like, it's changed my life. He's like, your only two days in my blog post finishing the book. So just, maybe it hasn't changed your life yet. But I feel like it's got the capacity to have I keep reminding myself like, you know, I'm 40. Now like, that's it. I'm halfway through my 4000 weeks, like, come on, what are you going to do with the rest of them? You know, make them count? Can I ask I don't know if this is a sacred or not, but does mean get another book about it? Does she? Does she ever come back? You know, what she not at this stage? Lots of people were super duper interested in that, because it's left on a bit of a cliffhanger. Oh, hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah. I hadn't I hadn't planned there to be and hopefully. Yeah, I can't, I can't make any large announcements about such things. But hopefully, hopefully she gets a turn to, you know, be adapted into screen in some way. Oh, yes, but not that I would say anything about that. But hopefully, that's something that happens. I love this podcast because I find out things about other artistic pursuits that I know nothing about. So tell me how, when you write a book, do you then have to go you have to go find someone to publish it for you. You have to send it off to lots of people and stuff. Well, essentially, what we're how it works, that that's essentially how it works. One of the one of the great lucky breaks of my life is that when I was starting the course that I did the writing course at RMIT, I started writing skylarking as part of, you know, subject to their novel subject. And I actually managed to get that picked up by a publisher before it was finished. So it's very rare that that happens. And that happened. Which was incredible. And since then I've got an agent. So in Australia in particular, definitely in the overseas, the best thing to do is to find a literary agent, if one can you know, I mean, the other thing about it that's been so strange, is you kind of think, oh yeah, I got my first book published. And now I'm just gonna get books published. Like, that's the way it rolls. And of course, that doesn't happen either. Like every single one is still, you know, has to be great. It has to be ready to be published, it has to there has to be space in the market, there has to be all those other you know, everything has to kind of align and combined. So that's why so often, you know, writers in this country, in on average $12,000 A year from their writing, like it's ridiculous. I mean, there's a few outliers, but that's why so often they've got all the other hustles that they have, whether or not they're in writing, like any artists in this country, in fact, because we're so ridiculously and chronically underfunded and undervalued. But you know, that's why having this little bit of time where it has been, I have been able to do it because I got an advance for the book. So I have been able to just focus on writing and feel validated that I don't also have to take on every teaching gig and every workshop key you know, and because that's, that's really hard and that's the other side of the you know, Being an art monster, or, you know, being creative is that then you've got to also manage your own business, about that. And all everything that that comes along with that, which I think often too, is not instinctively where an artist strengths might be. Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, it's very hot, you know, and we want to collaborate, and we, and we want to do all the things and we want to be excited. And it's really hard to kind of insert yourself in there and say, Actually, but hang on, am I being paid for this? Or Hang on? How many hours? Is this gonna take me? Um, one of the things that one of my gangs do have women all have, we're all right, as we're all parents. And at certain times, we've written each other's like, hardcore emails for each other. Whether we're saying, no, actually, we need to be paid more than that, or this is how much I'm charging, because it's still so instinctively hard to do it yourself. I'm getting better at it. But it's still really hard to do it. To do it yourself. Yeah, so the business side of it is just an absolute mess. But I must say that having a my incredible agent on board now. And she's amazing, and she just no bullshit. And she does the, the bits that I both don't understand. And I have no energy for and she lets me in, which protects the time that I have then to write, which is what soulmates? Absolutely. Wow, that's awesome. So because you've written because, like you said, about getting your advance is that because you sorry, if I'm Hope I'm not being too personal. Like, no, no, go ask. This is what we should be doing. We should be talking about the business stuff. Yeah, really? Yeah. So did you have to present the idea for the book? And then they were so we really liked this. So we're gonna give you the funds to give you the time and space to create it? Yeah, what often happens is that you'll get sued by Agent took the mother fold out and took it to various publishers, and then the publishers all kind of, you know, I was in the fortunate spot to kind of have a number of bids in from different publishers. So then you kind of talk about it, you talk to everyone and see who's a good fit. And who's let's be very frank, who's got the most money. And at that stage, they'll often say, so people will often get contracted in a two book deal or a three book deal. So they'll say, What have you got next. And hilariously, we were off, and we were doing a trip around Australia to visit our mates who live up in the Kimberley. So we take him through, you know, eight weeks off, put the camper trailer on, we were way out in this remote community had very little phone reception. And I'm trying to like pitch my new book, which I hadn't written a word of. The second book is cut, it's kind of a little bit of this, it's kind of a little bit that so that's often what happens is that you kind of pitch a concept or, and some people really don't like being contracted, like some writers will say, Oh, the pressure of having a contract hanging over my head for the next book is too much. I can't write like that. I'm a bit of a deadline person. So I kind of like it. Having said that, I've already missed my deadline. So that's that's the way things go to. So I wanted to ask you about your podcast. Yes. The first time. It's funny. Do you get this a lot when people google it, they think it's about something else? Yes, yes. Yes, we do. We do. And in fact, there is another one which is about the which came after us. And of course, now we've now it's hilarious, because it's we're forcing we're about to start our fifth season next year. And we've also now you know, I'm up to publishing my third book, Katherine's publishing her second book. So the premise at the start was that it was about the first time you publish a book. And because Catherine was about to publish her, so we chat to each other about all the things you know, what do you do for a launch? The kinds of questions you're asking as well, like, how do you find an agent, you know, what's meant to cost? As well as interviewing Australian writers about their kind of the first time they published a book and what they've learned since which is, which has been nice. Yeah, cool. So you're gonna change the show to the third time that you've heard? Yeah, I know, we were like the first and subsequent times. And now we've got such a brand that I feel like we can't change it. But this year, or next year, we're actually going to, we're hoping to focus we got some really kind of, I talked to Maggie Chipstead, US writer who was shortlisted for the Booker Prize this year, and, you know, getting Helen Garner to speak, you know, we've kind of been begging our friends in the first season to like, Well, you talk to us to now. You know, all these books arrive every day the publishers are out. We get pitches all the time, we can't possibly fit on everyone who, you know, we've been asked to have. So it's this real switch. But you know, a bit like you I think I just I'm, I'm so obsessed and curious about how other people do the thing that they do and how they manage To make it work, and I'm like a bow burden. So I saw I still little bits of everyone's processes and ideas. And, and I just think it's incredibly, it's incredibly interesting. It's incredibly interesting to have those conversations with people. And, and also, I don't think I realized Katherine actually was at an event the other night, and she messaged me afterward. And she said, people really listened to us, like people really came up and said, like, it's really helpful. I really, you know, your voice is so familiar. And I think the beauty now of podcasting, and you would know this is that it feels you know, you forget that however, many people are going to download it later. And you just, you're very, you're sitting often now in your own home, and you're very intimate, and you're very frank. And then you forget sometimes, what you've said, when someone comes up to you are random, and oh, I loved what you said about this about your marriage. I'm like, shit, and I say that. But yeah, you know, I I've become, yeah, I've become really digital. I mean, my dream, my dream is that I get to write books. And then someone on the ABC gives me a show. And I can just talk to creatives about what they do. You know, and someone can pay me to do it. That's the That's the dream. Really, let's be frank Ellison. That is, that's my train. That's what I want to happen. That is so good. I love that anyone listening for the AV? Yeah. Give us by the show. I found the same thing. I, I found that mostly why I started this is I needed to find out other people's opinions on how not necessarily how to do the physical stuff. Because everyone's so different in there are different, you know, requirements or whatever, but how to change my perception about stuff because I was finding I was getting really challenged, being interrupted and that kind of thing, like, you know, having to having to look at things in a different way and needing to for my own sake, because it was I was just going to have to stop creating, because I just was too wound up and too, you know, almost resentful. That sounds horrible. Yes. But yeah, so I've really enjoyed hearing how other people do it how how they think about things. Yes. And how they, how they still meet their needs, but not at the expense of their own mothering. Yeah, so yeah, I've just love it. I think it's the range too, don't you think Allison that like I am? Have you read the divided heart? Oh, I interview? Yes. You have you? Yes, of course you did. You interviewed Rachel. That's how I knew about your podcast. You know, like, that was such a profound book. For me. I got that really early because someone recommended it to me. And then since then, I've read lots of this and and right, who's a writer, her extraordinary book on being a mother and all this, there's heaps, there's heaps and, and often you're drawn to those ones, too. Like I read all of them, for people who aren't parents as well. But I think it's the range of going, well, this person did it like that. And then this person didn't like that. It's so permission giving when you go, okay, I can be away from my children, and do my work that way. Or I can do it amidst the interruptions. And I can write a chapter on my phone while I'm doing, you know, there's no right way to do it. And I think in the end, sometimes I worry about my obsession with reading about other people's process, but then I'm like, no, because the more you read, the more expensive your idea of what it can be is. And yeah, so I'm totally there with you. It's made my practice so much better. And which is why it's so important that you know, and so amazing in such a generous kind of actor that you that you do this podcast, too, I think because it is. It's that talking about the unspoken or which, which, you know, there were there were people. Yeah, there were definitely people who, who let me know, I'll always remember a gorgeous friend, Amy, who messaged me on day three and said you might start crying today. And that's okay. And I have since then, I have always sent that message to people, you know, to because I was like, that was so incredibly helpful, that she told me that, you know, and then and I think that there is this act of and you have to know when to say it because you don't want to burst that gorgeous, pregnant, first time pregnancy bubble either for people but the sharing of stories and the way that women in particular share stories. What a lifeline that is. Oh, that's that's happened. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more and I think the rise of Social media of this showing this perfection this, you know, this beautiful staged photo like we're talking about the Christmas tree, you know? Yeah. Is that really reality? You know? Or if you've got that Christmas tree hidden in a different room where no one can tell you why can't we just be honest with each other and just getting rolled out like don't be afraid to, to share and I think that would help so much not just in, like what we've talked about, but also like the whole mental health thing like actually saying, Yeah, I had a lot of trouble. And now I'm going to use that to help everybody else. Yeah, it's just so powerful. And it's not incredibly ashamed often scared of and embarrassed about, you know, it's laugh and it's reality. And the more we talk about it, the better. No, absolutely. I get a bit precious I think sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And scared, scared. Scared of how scared of what people will think, you know, I can say this as a 40 something year old, but there's no way I would have said this 20 years ago, you know, yeah, like we're talking right back at the beginning about this judgment. Yeah, absolutely. What he has to start thinking like a 40 year old woman. Yes, we actually, oh, that's. So basically, I was gonna ask, what you've got coming up. I've actually got a couple of, I've got some great workshops that I'm teaching in the new year in 2022. And the first one is a kind of a kicking off your creative year. So it's for writers Victoria, I'll send you through the details. But it's a full day online workshop. So people can do it from wherever they are in Australia. And we're looking at it's for emerging, or mid I think it can be for anyone really, but just looking at ways to kind of really kick off the year going, how am I going to make space for my creative work in whatever kind of situation that I'm in that my my work and my family is in? And how I'm going to do that. So that is that's really fun. And yeah, people I mean, people can find I try and keep up to date on socials, I'm having a bit we're having our three weeks at the beach offline, which I'm just so excited and thrilled about. So January's always off. But yeah, podcasts new podcast season, coming up with the first time and then lots of lots of little events in the New Year as well. So and then the book eventually. You know what, now that now that I've spoken to you, I'm gonna read your books. And a big thing for me because I love that well, and you know, if you're if you are into audiobooks, I can highly recommend although I haven't listened to it myself, because it's just too weird and hard to do. But the gorgeous Claudia Karvan read the mother fault for Audible. Yeah, or audio book or whatever. And I got to talk to her quite a bit. She's really into it. And everyone who I know who's read it that way, has loved it. So that might be a way that works for you. That is definitely something I can do. Thank good. That's okay. That's it's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you. So, so lovely speaking to you, Allison. I feel like that's like been a debrief as well as just a little therapy session. Thank you as Digby, it was lovely to meet you, too. Are you in the middle of your first publishing experience long to get a deal for already been there and want to know how others experienced it? Maybe you're a writer, a reader, a lover of Australian fiction, this podcast is for you. Here's the deal. Adams first book, the helpline is hitting shelves in Australia very soon. And she has got some questions. Like how do I plan a launch party? What else should I expect? In the Green Room? If I get invited to a festival? Will I get invited to a festival? What if I get invited to a festival and no one shows up? Like my day job? Is my life gonna change? What does it feel like to have a bad review? Do I need to get my nails done to match my book cover? Should I be on Twitter more? And even though my first book skylarking came out a couple of years ago, and I can give Katherine some advice already has lots of our experiences that are vastly different. So we thought we'd cast the net a little wider. And ask some other Australian writers about that first time. I just ticked that box novel and started this incredible adventure. It's great to have a deadline to work towards you know, there's this tendency to obviously procrastinate or not even procrastinate. Just keep reworking and reworking and never really deciding that it's finished never pressing them and I distinctly remember the moment I got the idea for what With become the first novel, that moment is vivid in my mind full of those things had a choice, I write the story down or I go completely mad that first shortlisting that you get is just this amazing validation. And for some reason, it tends to happen when you're at your lowest point. And it always just kind of buoys you up, and allows you to keep going. There's three parts to being an artist of any sort, there's talent, there's hard work, and the third one ever forgets as luck, good luck, the lucky chance comes and you're not ready for your lucky chance, you're not gonna make it either. In each episode, we'll ask a writer to come clean on all the fields and the logistics of their first time, and will hone in on advice on a particular aspect of the publishing process. I'll also ask Catherine to update us on where she's at with her own adventure into the world of a debut novelist. Whether it's chatting to her editor, getting her social sorted, or speaking to an audience of booksellers, we are taking a bit of a risk here. We want to take you behind the scenes of the hype, and the instant deliciousness of the debut Experience and find out all the lows along with the highs. We're asking our guests to be candid, and to give us the warts and all of how it feels. And we don't know how it's gonna play out. But Katherine, Will her book end up on billboards at the airport? Will she hit the coveted top 10 On release? Will Hollywood come knocking? Or will As one writer attests the experience all be a little anticlimactic? subscribe via iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts and check out our website, the first time podcast.com or connect with us via Twitter and Instagram at the first time pod. And let us know about your first time and the questions you want answered. We look forward to getting into your ears. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Shanelle Franklin Australian MC, podcaster and producer S1 Ep23 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Shanelle Franklin is a presenter, producer, podcaster, voice over artist, MC and writer who is based in Adelaide, South Australia, and a mum of 2. Shanelle has worked in radio, television and the music industry for over a decade with brands such as Channel 9, SAFM, Fresh 927, Foxtel, Music SA and the BBC. She began her career in community radio on Fresh 927 where she presented in the drive and breakfast time slots. It was here that she was able to develop her craft within the media industry. She has worked in television, presenting a national music TV show on Foxtel called Music Room, and she produced, directed and presented her own tv show Jam LIVE which aired on Chanel 9 Adelaide and 9NOW. She has conducted the Red Carpet Interviews and Emceed the South Australian Music Awards, along with many other MC gigs. Currently Shanelle writes and presents a podcast called Motherhood: A Beautiful Nightmare with Tamara Linke, the podcast for the mother who is flying by the seat of her pants. As they discuss topics like incontinence, mumneisia and toddler tantrums, all in a fun and judgment free environment. Connect with Shanelle on her instagram - https://www.instagram.com/shanellefranklin_/?hl=en Listen to Motherhood: A Beautiful Nightmare Find out more about Catherine House Adelaide Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Chanel Franklin. Chanel is a presenter, producer podcaster voice over artist MC and writer who is based in Adelaide, South Australia, and is a mum of two Chanel has worked in radio, television and the music industry for over a decade, with brands such as Channel Nine SCFM, fresh 97 foxtail, music SA and the BBC. She began her career in community radio on fresh nine to seven where she presented in the drive and breakfast time slots. It was here that she was able to develop her craft within the media industry. Chanel has worked in television, presenting a national music TV show on Foxtel called Music Room. And she produced directed and presented her own TV show jam Live, which aired on Channel Nine, Adelaide, and nine now. She now has conducted the red carpet interviews and emceed for the South Australian music awards, along with many other emcee gigs. Currently Chanel writes and presents a podcast called motherhood a beautiful nightmare, with Tamara link, the podcast for the mother who is flying by the seat of her pants as they discuss topics like incontinence, Mum, nasia, and toddler tantrums all in a fun and judgment free environment. So I came first came across you through the South Australian music awards, doing your hosting and the red carpet interviews and interviews with the winners. So you've done presenting producing voiceover work emceeing podcasting that you first got your start in community radio, which I thought was really cool, because community radio, I don't think gets enough credit. No, it doesn't. Yeah, so tell me how that sort of started and, and what made you It's again, one of those things really were community radio and the same with 3d. It gives you this my my start was fresh 97. But 3d is exactly the same radio Adelaide as well. Where you have the opportunity to learn on the job, you make mistakes, you learn from them, that's, that's the key thing. So I used to be an event coordinator before that, and events are great, but they just they they age you before your time, you have the unbelief. You look like you've been dragged through a bush backwards when you finish one of them. As much as I love it, I'm not it's not it's not in, it's not in my soul. And I think until you acknowledge something that's in your soul, and truly what your inner being is telling you that this is your purpose, you'll be met with constant things of trying to guide you in that direction. So the event coordinating was definitely not for me, but it certainly is for so many people that are excellent at it. So I remember having this moment and saying to my husband, I'm miserable. And he said quit. We will just live simply. And we did and I think sometimes the more money you've got the the more you spend I know it's very difficult to just quit your job and whatever. But we ended up living quite simply. And not lavish too in order to still keep our heads above water. We weren't going to get ahead because we were spending some of our savings but savings at what cost you know you need to be happy. Yeah, absolutely threw myself into fresh I gave it my my all and I then decided, Well if no one's going to do it for me. I've got to do it myself. So I ended up grabbing the audio breaks off of the off of the track system that got there and put a reel together and sent it to the highest person in radio Eric who happened to live in Adelaide at the time. His name's Craig Bruce. But he was like the boss of Kyle and Jackie O at the time when they're on today FM. But he loves Adelaide, and this is his home. So I thought, What's What am I going to lose? He's not going to reply. I'll give it a go. And email you can kind of hide behind you a week. Yeah, absolutely. So it was easy to kind of do it that way rather than face to face. And he wrote back and said, you sound great. Come in for a chat. So I did that. And I got on air two weeks later. And now I get up plenty of times. I remember the studio door flying over from one of the content assistants saying what was that air brake and I'm like, I was trying to put a call to air and I press the wrong button and I fired that sweeper off and I didn't really oh my god, like it was just it was stressful. And I was like, Okay, I've just got to give this a go. And then I had an opportunity to move to Hobart to be their afternoons announcer. And I was I really love Adelaide. I don't want to move at this point where I'm thinking about having children soon. Maybe I am not going to do it. So I said to them, I won't go and that was like well if you don't take this opportunity, someone else is going to take it up. So they literally said we've got no more work here in Adelaide. And there was some on my bum is what I felt like and it was a low points I thought I've worked so hard to get here and now it just stopped maybe I should have taken it but I had to consider dance job as well. So it was a tricky time. And then I got picked up by a woman that was producing a music TV show called Music Room. It was airing on Foxtel all around the country. It was low budget, but again a great experience. And she said I'm looking for a female presenter. I thought Great. Okay, audition for that got it with another guy. He was the CO presenter and we did three seasons learn an incredible amount. We filmed it here in Adelaide. And it was a music show that was just for rock and heavy artists. And I know where she was coming from she was trying to create a show because the rock and heavy artist didn't weren't getting enough air time maybe on Triple J or things like that. But then I'm thinking we'll need this the folk Carter's and neither is this and neither is that yeah, there's a lot of genres that miss out so that that for me, I was like something's missing here. So after that, I got a job opportunity to run rip it up magazine. But it was at the time where they just folded the magazine and made it online. So upset a lot of people so I'm like great I'm going to be the scapegoat for everyone being devastated when I wanted the print to stay as well but it was a question of money and who was funding it really. So they so they did that and I thought as much as I love music it's that's not what I want to do. That's not my passion or really want to do the presenting side of it. So I thought okay stuff so I'm going to have a baby this is my quick way out of out of river. And that was that was in my mind. So I was lucky enough to get pregnant quickly with summer I had summer. And then I thought what do I really want to do? Because they just made me redundant when I literally was like I have to go back there. I want to go back so I love music but it's not really what I'm passionate it was that inner being going it's not for you. It's not for you, but I'm kind of ignoring it because it was a safe job and money. I remember sitting on the couch breastfeeding and I got the phone call and they said we're making you redundant we're shutting the whole thing down. And I went right okay, that's a good thing. Maybe it is alright Clean Slate What do I want to do? Maybe I can write a TV show who who bloody nose I literally just decided that I was going to back myself which is hard to do. Because the little person on your shoulder one side Jiminy Cricket as a supporter and then this person here is a pain in the ass who says well you're not a producer you can't do this you didn't you haven't gone to film school you you know, all this self doubt. Yeah. Which can be incredibly damaging anyway because often we listen to the negative stuff more And we talk to ourselves I believe far more than what we actually speak out, huh? Yeah. You know, and and I thought, I'm just gonna do it. Okay. So I wrote wrote a show up. And it was going to be a music TV show that was inclusive of all artists. It was celebrating artists that were traveling through South Australia and playing live music venues. So it's hearing them, but also hearing a local artist every single week. From a variety of different genres. I made sure there was heavy in there, there was folk there was pot, there was soul, punk, electro electronics, I wanted to cover as much as I could. So I presented it to the to Channel Nine Adelaide, and they picked it up, but to say they picked it up, that was a year of back and forth and back and forth. And I literally I felt like I was almost due for a nervous breakdown because I signed up these sponsors to invest in this show. And because you need to pay creatives to work on it, I was 100% going to be that person that was paying people for their work, the film guy, the editor, graphic design, work, all that sort of stuff. And then from there, it literally I had sponsors it invested I had a letter from nine saying we're going to air it but they also could have gone the minute they seen it. Now we're not liable for anything. They said he puts up to our standard we'll air it. So people invested in the show. I spent that money and paid the creatives then sat in the wings and went please add this because if you just put this in the bin, I'm up ship creek without a paddle, but it was just the most terrifyingly living on the edge but so much so that of course so much anxiety. During this old time, I decided it was a wonderful idea to get pregnant with my son what plan Oh, I've got no idea. Shit. Wow. So you've got the you got the 18 month old some are running around little girl, SAS pot, and then so much morning sickness and literally crawling around on the floor trying to appease this programmer at Channel Nine and pretend everything's rosy and you know what? Pregnancy I can do this I like the phone I'm like, oh, like really good. Oh, it was this facade and that I was putting the mask on the whole time. And Lisa Bishop from the external manager from music essays said to me because they jumped on board and they were supportive and she said it's alright you know I've got kids too it's it's hard loving and unloved is really hard like Why have I done a TV show when I'm pregnant and got a baby and I just Oh my god and she wasn't a child carry that so you know you you go to the point where I remember I was on the phone to a Sony record label getting approval to have an artist on and I'd left it for a second because she was carrying on so I thought I'll just go down the hallway to have this cool conversation on the phone with the Sony rep. Having a great time I've walked past she got into the friggin manuka honey. And I took one look and I went I can't do anything about that because I've got this into something cool last yes given her yay. Three jobs she's ever no not my kids got the honey all over the floorboards and they're all floorboards so there's cracks in them on like that's going to be ants for about 100 years Yeah. Oh my gosh. These moments where I've gone oh my gosh, just that's too much. And so we finally we finally got it on so that was that was great. Yeah. And I literally when it was on TV I was hanging my head because our in some of the TV Go Mommy There you are. Like, yeah, let me but I'm hanging on a thread because I was 37 weeks pregnant. And it got on and it was received really well. And it was it was great. And I then was it was due to watch the last episode air on TV and I went into labor Oh well he was only was 37 minute labor so that was trying to get out of me no time for anything except survival is what I was feeling at the time. Yeah, it was just so anyway had him he came out not breathing. So then there's that moment of when we're nothing else matters but but life because it was just a bit quick for him. And then suddenly I had this moment and every TV went down in the hospital. And I thought, well, that's a bit ironic because I think the universe is telling me to just stop and be in this moment with my child. And don't worry about the TV because it was going to end no matter what don't do an Instagram post don't do a Facebook post, just leave it and be with your child who who that was that moment I would never forget because he finally started breathing. You know, so thankful and and then that moment of realization and my husband took a photo of me and it's the most raw photo I've got, I've got no makeup. I'm not an absolute mess. And he's just putting put on my chest and got feta cheese all over his face. And I just held him in like cried and I was like, Oh my gosh, that was just all the tears of everything. Yeah, that I was trying to be the best version of myself and honor my career so to speak and be your mum to summer and be a new mum to Ali and live in this moment and then, a week after the show, after after, I'd had Ali boobs out of control milk everywhere, not sleeping. Great. You know, as women do your bleeding a lot after you've had a baby. And the Channel Nine people say all the one guy said can you have a meeting? I mean, like Sure, sure. Sure. Well, I'll just make it happen. So suck got set summer up with a endless snacks in the back car seat. Dan was still off from work. He pulled into a loading zone, Ollie feed him one one boob was bigger than the other committed to one move. You and he was reflexes so constantly through that threw up so put him in the in the car seat. Dan was idling in the car because you know, they're like the hum of the car. Just you know, release all those emissions anyway, thanks. And then I walked in, and I sat there and had this meeting with this big rig at Channel Nine. And they said we're not going to renew it for a second season. You did great. We did awesome. But music TV is just not where we're going. People were viewing music TV very differently. It's all very online. They don't sit and watch TV like they did count. And this was a very different show to count down. It wasn't on a set it was we were in the venue's filming. And it was it was great. But he was like people aren't watching live TV like that anymore. And I actually in the one season got the same amount of viewers that the loop got on channel 10. So which had a crapload more money behind it. So I was really stoked with that. And one and the second to last week, we actually I beat the football ratings. Oh, we can't get that Kenya. I was sorry. I was like, right. So they put me on at 430 on a Saturday afternoon, which is a tricky time. And you only get the ratings of people that are physically sat there at that point. You don't get the people that catch up. And let's be honest, most of us catch up on TV. Most of us don't just sit where the TV tells us that something's on we work around what we're doing. So that was a kind of a moment. I remember walking out one big big and the other side was lopsided. And thinking to myself, Okay, this is just the different I don't know what's happening and I remember feeling excited for the future. But then two weeks later felt really low. You know, where the where you've had no sleep, and you just exhausted and I thought and now I appreciate the time I had to just be still but as a creative. It's a really restless feeling. We don't I don't think we do very well when we're told to stop. If we stop ourselves, it's fine. But if we're told to stop, and we're halted and press pause, and we can't do our art form, it feels really Yeah, it's not it's not nice feelings. It's you get filled with anxieties, frustration, quit your question, everything question everything is what have I done enough that should have taken that phone call or should have done this should have done that to push yourself more. So I did a stood still for a while. And I then a year later wrote a podcast, because podcasts. In America 80% of people listen to podcasts. But in Australia, it's about 35 to 40%. But the rate here is growing faster than it did in America. So Aussies are really getting this trajectory, because I think podcasts are the medium where it gives the listener respect, because they've actually chosen to tune into unlike radio, again, like commercial TV where it just feeds out you when you've got the car on or you're told to listen to a song or you're told, here's an ad break, or the weather break, the podcast is completely the business choice, whatever they decide to listen to, whether it's crime, whether it's your podcast, whether it's something to make them laugh, it's an active thing. And it is almost a bit of therapy, because they're escaping whatever, they're escaping for a bit and having some downtime, whatever it is, so it is so they're really powerful. When you get into them, and they can be addictive, because you go What else can I listen to and learn? It's great. Yeah. So So yeah, so that was I wrote a podcast idea. And I wrote it with a friend of mine, who is a football star. And she got picked up to do the mix Breakfast Show, and could no longer do the podcast with me. So I wrote this idea. And then it went down the Pope. I remember having a chat with her. And she's like, I'm so sorry. And when it's your friend you like don't make you you chase what's happening for you, you go like back to 100%. And I truly still mean that to this day, I was just sad for myself, that I fell on my bum again. And I remember handing the children a packet of tiny TEDx whether it was the dinner time or not, I didn't care I handed the major packet of tiny Teddy's and just said just watch the Sun TV for a minute. And I went in the pantry and had the ugliest cry. Loud real, like God again. And the end, my face was all fat and bloody puffed. And it was just I it was the release that again, I needed. But I then had this moment where I just needed to fall apart, not in front of them because they'll come over and go What's wrong mommy and white, you're iron and you crying more? starve yourself. And then you look at them. And they're so cute sat there in their Teddy's watching boy, then you cry again. Yes, you have another second wave coming. So you're in the shower, and you do that again, whatever. And then you finally get this thing where you've completely dehydrated. And you pick yourself up. And I literally was in the shower. I love a good thinking session in the shower. And I thought what podcasts do I really want to write, I want to write something that is and I always thought I would never do a career to do with my kids or motherhood. Always thought I'd be different to that. And somehow it's led me to that. So I wrote this podcast that I wanted to share a bit for the mother who's or the dad but mostly the mums flying by the seat of their pants. And for someone that just needs to listen to it and go you know what? I'm going through the same stuff. And it's hard but together we're stronger because that village doesn't exist anymore. Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, it really doesn't and so many feel so isolated and almost don't realize how isolated we are. Until we hear something that someone else does that's the same and we go yes my kid does that to drives me crazy or or the incessant shouting in them with a drill sergeant in the morning to get ready for school we you know, we all kind of do it or issues with the pelvic floor where we worry about doing lloween and knickers or something. All these? Yeah, yeah. So we are actually more alike than we think we are. So I wrote this podcast and I pitched it to a girl that I started off working at fresh with she was volunteering to but when she got picked up by Nova that was when I got picked up by sa femme and then we both didn't work for them anymore. I'm and I said to her, Do you want to start for coffee? And it's one of these things that I am so glad I did we sometimes second guests should I should or not? Should I ask that person for coffee? Should I make that call? Should I send that text or email? Yes. For again? Yes. Because what have you got to lose? Yeah, absolutely say no. Well, okay, it seems a bit but you the worst is the regret or not knowing that's when you feel your crappiest. And it might not be now it's often later that it rears its ugly head. So I just sent her a text and said, Do you want to go for a coffee? And she went, Hey, lady haven't seen you know, just as short. I sent my shout let me you know, halfway. So we did that. And we I pitched it to her. And she went, Ah, yeah, sounds good. I've actually got my studio. She's a voiceover artist. So she's got a little studio that she's, she's made about her husband's warehouse. And it was perfect, because you don't need to pay for studio space. So we threw ourselves into that. And then it all kind of started falling together. Apple did a feature on us early on. And then we teamed up with Katherine house and raised just over $5,000 for their helping a system, we created this chemical to help a sister out. Because again, we wanted to be this kind of help. When you went out one of our fellow sisters needs us we stand up whether whether we're a mother or not, you know, it might be if you're in a position of power to help in a position of power means do have a house and a job, or you know, something like that. So we're all most of us and the majority of us are in that position of power, who might not have a lot we might have been loaded, but we can spare 10 bucks. So we can give up one coffee. Yeah, to donate. So that was the behind that. So we did well there and then it started to creep creep up a bit. And then Apple did a big feature on us only last week. So I remember checking the dashboard of our listeners and it shot up and I went a week prior they needed so they sent us an email, sent us an email and said, Can you submit your artwork a different way? And I've just done it in Canva because it was an easy option. And they said oh, we need it in Photoshop. Fine. I'm gone. Again. I'm not a graphic designer. So I run an old friend and said, I need your help. Please. Can you help me if I send you the elements? Can you just put it in? He said sure. That's fine. He's a muse. Oh, yeah. And he's a bit he's a brilliant graphic designer. He said, Sure, send it over, it's fine. So they sent it back and then they featured us and then since then, we've started to do well with it. But the idea is just to give mums that point to have a laugh and a break and see that their journey is much the same as the rest of us. Yeah, it's almost like it's like a validation that you're not alone. You're like I mean some of these there's the episode titles I've just got to read them out because they're so good. It's a bunch of don't wait your pants which is hair I can relate to that one my you know my amnesia when you're the baby sucks your brain out and you can't think of anything ever yeah x let's talk let's talk six which is good and chic man which I really like this shit well yeah, it's like it is where you're honest it's yeah, it's it's we do get that title of being you know I remember being so caught up with it a few things and work related or pressures you put on yourself that's probably more what it is. And then someone was just not listening. Far out kids like listen, listen to us. Not listening. Actively not listening. I've had their hearing has both been checked. They exceptional here is hearing me banging on about nothing. And I lost my lost my shit. And then you feel so I was like, wow, and then ship on ship on ship on ship. And that's what you do because you go I didn't mean to but actually was your fault that I know, you don't tell them that you just You're so wound up sometimes it is like a rubber band that just goes snap when you're in that moment. Since doing the TV show music, they got me on board to do their red carpet and backstage interviews, which I loved because it was chatting to all the artists and the winners and people coming in. And that was all good fun. But since doing that one of the people that one is nameless for Hansa, and he won the Best International collaboration award last year. And someone asked him, Do you know anyone that can see? And this was at just the last few seminars and he said, Oh, yeah, Chanel, Chanel can MC had an MC the thing in my life, but and I again, there's that short shot of doing that. Figure it out later. Then I had this meeting. And it was to be the it was at the convention center to be an MC for it was the Iftar dinner, which is a Muslim Ramadan thing. So how am I going to say these words, but anyway, I practice, practice, practice, did the MC gig and I felt that I came alive in myself. I was like, I love doing this. This is great. Like I really I just I felt validated, I felt like because always, I loved music so much, but I couldn't seem couldn't play an instrument. And I always thought the presenting side was my connection to it. But now the emcee work to I felt that that was where I could bring something that is inside me rather than something that isn't like playing an instrument or whatever I will sit there and have a vino and just play all the different tunes and just love it so I'll do it on my own don't even need anyone there. So I've got such a passion for it, but I can't bring a skill set to it. Apart from the the art of the communicating and the chatting. Yeah, so once that finished I then got brought on by Flinders uni to do their bands, the MC and book their artists COVID came with everything. Thank you COVID And I was I was cursing COVID for them because it was it was squashing me I was like I've just got this opportunity. And now it's going down the beam going in the bin. And then from there a few other big events like there was a big cheer competition and a few other big things that were coming out of the entertainment center. They needed an MC a school mom put me forward she goes I think Chanel does stuff like that done at once. But who worked it out later. Yeah, I put myself forward for that. It went really well. And then I started then Live Nation contacted music essay and said we need someone to do our ones to watch launch. Who can you recommend? They put me forward. And then suddenly, it all started just the universe seem to be working in my favor for what it seemed like for once. And I said to a girlfriend of mine who did a Reiki session on me because Reiki is fantastic. And she said, Have you ever I said I'm just sick of my career being stopped start stop, start, stop start. And she said think of it as stepping stones. Not stop start one lily pad to the next rather than hold stop progression. And I think when I started thinking of it like that, I actually changed my mindset and felt a million times better. And then music essay said we can't fly over the Triple J presented Can you do it? Sure. Yeah. And then that was that and then I had I just I felt like I was living my true self being out there and I truly loved being a part of the being next to the artists that were winning being amongst the finalists, hearing the cheese being amongst the performers, the Aboriginal opening ceremony like the smoking ceremony. Yeah, that just makes you come alive. I felt really connected to it and truly grateful. So that's that's been me. That's been my my journey of motherhood career a juggle. Yeah, and I've learned as I've failed, pretty much that's been the sense of it. Day Yeah, yeah, there is hearing hearing you express all of that. There's so many common themes about, you know, you can, you can feel that little bit of the self doubt. But you've got to do it anyway. Because you're so you're very open. Like you say to the universe, which is awesome, because I'm the same and a lot of our listeners are so that is so cool. Then you mentioned the Reiki, it's like, you're willing to let go of it and say, right, Oh, am I meant to be doing this? What am I meant to be doing and allow yourself to be guided in that way? There's absolutely no hesitation in that. And that's when you know, I think when you're living the true version of yourself, when your inner being and your physical self match up, it is pure harmony. And it is it is felt you really do feel it. I read a quote in a book once that said, I lied to myself, but my heart never believes me. Yeah, so hard for me. It's basically you can tell yourself, I need to be in this lawyer job, or I need to be working for a good ship boss, but he does pay me well, or whatever, you know, to do all this sort of stuff. But really, you know, you actually know and whether or not you're going, you know, but what I really want to do doesn't bring a lot of money. Find a way to turn that into a business because my husband what he does for work, he loves his golf is obsessed with his golf, and he's obsessed with Liverpool Football Club and Port Adelaide and all that sort of stuff. That's his thing. That's his passion. Some people have a passion and have a job. And they're happy to swap the hats when needed to be and then he's got his dad hat, husband hat friend hat. That makes him happy. Because his dream was to be a professional soccer player. He's 41. So he's an bus with a busted knee. So he's like, Okay, well, I can still do the other things and live and enjoy that. When I've got my job. Me I need to my job needs to fill my soul. I'm a Pisces, I feel things real deep. And I need it to, to I can't just I don't want to switch those hats. I want them to to be in as one. But one thing I did find really important was that I had an outlet away from my kids away from my husband away from my work. Yep. Which is my presenting MC work. I needed something completely different. And I found kickboxing. So it's bloody great. Anyway. Great time. So I go there twice a week. And this is a pressure report. And so so the kids come home from school. Yep, I'm like, right, throw him in a shower, and or a bath, use your shower, because a bath means that the it's reminiscent of a raining rainforest in there after they've left. It's like a slip and slide for me. I got to tell them often I slip. Oh, good driving up. So I put them in a shower quickly. Because the those nights I need them to be doing what they're told. And then I get them dinner. And then when dad comes home, all he has to do is do readers with summer read only a book and put them to bed and have a little play. So then I'm not at the minute he's coming home shoving it all on him. And then it's he's like, I'm struggling with this. So I feel like I've ticked those boxes. Now I can do it. This is what we do. We try and get it all organized. And then I'd go there for one hour, no phone. No, I'm uncontactable for one hour of that day, and I just do my thing. And it feels good to just give it a feel that I come home and I'm in that even though they're in bed some of some time still shouting, using every excuse under the sun is why she doesn't need to go to school tomorrow. Half anyway. Oh my god. She's a teacher. And then there's money. I I love you. I love you too. Please go to sleep. So I've come in, but I'm in the best mood because I've had that release. Yeah, that's somebody who's been really powerful because if works been frustrating or tricky, and the kids you know, be it's been, it's been a day, let's just say that's my way of just forgetting about everything and having a reset whether someone chooses to meditate. Another I read in a book recently about meditating and you can literally set your phone for 10 minutes, set the alarm for 10 minutes, put it on flight mode, and just be at peace and know that you're not going to over you're not going to go into this deep state where you are going to not forget to pick up your kids from school or sorry gonna forget to pick them up. You can just have 10 minutes to yourself and that's powerful too. We need that reset away from the whole thing. Oh yeah. That Is this something that every mother that I speak to on this is exactly the same thing. And that's thing, it doesn't have to be some great big thing. It doesn't have to be that you go out, you know, for hours and do some crappy thing. It's the hour at the kickboxing or the 10 Minute Meditation, as long as it's something I think is consistent. And that you can say, Yes, I'm going to do this, it's important enough to you. And yeah, like, make, make it so it's easy for the people that you're leaving at home, you know, like what you've done, you've you've got it all prepared. And then you're like, right, I don't have to worry about anything, because I know that everything's sorted. So it's Yeah, I think it's just so important is just that the most important thing really, is because I'm a better mother and a better wife. And then absolutely say, and I think when you live with a creative when you're not, I mean, everyone's creative in their own way. But when they don't do it for a living, when they've got more of a job, that kind of makes sense, or maybe a little bit more serious in like, let's say a banking field or a law field, as opposed to being a musician or another type of creative credits can be up and down a lot. And it doesn't mean that they're manic depressant or anything like that. And some of them are, and that's absolutely fine. But that doesn't mean you need to label them. It's just it's just, they're in their head a lot. And they have moments of feeling wonderful about things. And then sometimes they're just feeling like they're plateauing a bit. And I think that that can be tricky, too. So doing that kickboxing for me, is the best way that I go and reset, you know, you could be getting, you could have got an email that just wasn't wasn't the email you're hoping to get. And then you wear that on your shoulders all day real heavy. And then the kids are at you, for whatever reason the dog has put on the lawn and you've stepped in it all the just it does. It's got it's one of these things, it's never usually one thing, usually piles of things that we don't realize are accumulating until someone puts that last little bit and then it all goes bowl. And then we wonder why we're feeling so exhausted, tired, overwhelmed. It's the stuff we didn't realize was piling up before. Yeah. Yeah, then if you can, if you can knock down that pile, just like you know, by doing these things for yourself, just not allowing it to just keep keep going and going going. Exactly. That's really good advice, yeah Absolutely. Because mental health is something that I mean, I've got my own background with mental health and a lot of people I speak to have, but I feel like it's still not something that we're really great. I mean, we're good at talking about it. But the people listening to us perhaps aren't that great at listening and accepting and going oh, yeah, that's actually normal. Yeah, it's I'm finding in this in this podcast that people are being so honest, it's actually that same thing of like, people realizing with with your podcasts with the mums, we all have these things that go crazy. And we all have the same experiences and we've mental health to it's like it's actually normal. It's actually part of life. Yeah, you know, and we throw kids in the mix too. There's a whole lot of different levels of hormones and things going on that again, it's that hat moment where you're like I don't have a minute to cry and then a banks up for the next time. So you're wondering why you crying harder the second time because it wasn't the right moment for the kids needed. You're at that point. So you kind of just pushed it to the back of your mind, but I think mental health Is, is such an umbrella term. And I think every mother at some point, several times will go through their spurts of it, whether it be good, especially because you're still trying to live that version of yourself, be there for everybody else, it is really tricky. And a lot of mine was down to my work being frustrated me and just giving me what I what I did see was roadblocks. But now I kind of look at it as a stepping stones while I was trying to be a mother. So I'm having these moments of self doubt constantly, until I finally started to put the pieces of the puzzle still coming together. And when I had that Reiki session, my friend pulled a card for me and said, keep the faith. And literally weeks later was when that second MC gig came. Yeah. And then I started getting all started getting really great feedback, which was incredibly humbling, but also nice for me to feel that what path I thought I was on is right. And I am I in a different spot to what I was, when I did the TV show, yes, but so much happier, like doing the podcasts. And during my MC work. I am so much happier than what I was on on SFM. And during the TV show. Something still wasn't right. But I felt I needed to learn. I learned so much. And I'm so grateful for those experiences. But I feel like my career's evolved, and I'm happier for it. Because where it looks now is not where I thought it would look back then. But I'm ungrateful because it was obviously the universe's plan to say, we needed to stop that season of jam live, but only one to give you one for the experience. And then you're moving on to the next journey of what that's going to be. Yeah, at that moment in time. I felt really low and really bloody sad. And I'm like, is it the breastfeeding? Is it the fact that my son has reflux? And I can't put him down? Is it the fact I've got an 18 month old who's very attached to me, mommy, mommy, mommy, or what? I didn't know why I was crying, I was just crying. But then you get to the point where you know, you give yourself more credit than probably what we've been given in the past or that we give ourselves. You take a look into the things that you have done. And you give yourself that validation that you deserve. Because there's no better thing to do than to back yourself. That's the thing everyone else validating. Yes, yes. You've got to back first. Yeah. And that's the thing to you. It's sort of reminding me of when you said right at the beginning, how you, you were doing your announcing on the radio, and you thought I'm gonna make up this little show reel of all my little grabs of stuff and just go for it, you know, like, no one's gonna mean, it will I say no one, but some people this happens, but no one's literally going to tap you on the shoulder and say, hey, I want you to come and do this. Like, you actually have to be our way to go. Yeah, I was waiting for it that whole time for someone to tap me on the shoulder and say, Chanel, we're gonna plunk you here, or do this, and it didn't happen. And I that's when I was like, well, the again the age old saying that if you want something done, do it yourself. And that if you have an opportunity, you need to you need to just you need to do it if it's innate in you and your inner being is telling you this is what your purpose is. Get up, send that email, do that thing that you need to do to start that progression and Rome was not built in a day. So it won't happen overnight. You will get roadblocks but if it was easy, everyone would do it. One more saying which is my absolute favorite Oprah when you know when when you know better you do better. That's that sense of me now being so much more proud of what I've achieved as a sense of where I was on the radio and on telly going. I still didn't feel as grand as I thought it would feel I'm here now I'm doing it. I'm on SFM I'm on channel nine. This is great. And I'm like I'm still I didn't know whether I didn't have a chance to enjoy it because I was pregnant. Or I don't know or I was trying On a high debt with baggy tops who does that? Just wear your belly wet be proud of that. But I felt shamed a bit because I thought I'm not cool being pregnant on telly at a music festival. I should be home singing Kumbaya with nice tunes that were you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, place I felt really out of place until someone like Lisa Bishop who's a mum herself from from music essay said it's okay. Chanel, you can celebrate what you're doing. Show show your bumper off. And I reckon I hid my pregnancy for a good six months. And I shouldn't have Yeah, you can play play doh. Yeah. Yeah, so I shouldn't have, I really should have allowed myself to celebrate that. Yeah, again, the girls that were on TV for music were not pregnant. And they were just a bit younger than me as well. They seemed cooler. So that was what I was trying to emulate when really I wasn't being true to myself. And the better way was to just be me. Knowing this now. So when you know better you do? How's that played? Out? Right now? Oh, that's not the bag and go happy? Want to ask you. This sort of ties into was saying earlier about what we learned from our mothers and they learned from their mothers? Is it important for you, for your children to see you in your own identity as Chanel? Yeah. 100%. And you know what, I had this conversation with Dan, the husband. And he said to me, Chanel. Some people just don't get to he's he's seen the rise and fall. He's seen me get these opportunities, and then me crying a heat when they have just not gone the way I thought they should have at the time. And he said, some people just don't get to do their dream lobby like and I and I, for me that didn't sit well. Because I was like, No, I'm going to because I need to do it for myself. What am I going to ask that? Because I can see I'm having this premonition of me being 50 or 60 years of age and kicking myself for not trying at least so and he said, the kids, you're an amazing man, the kids love you so much. And they will be proud of you if you just worked in a cafe or whatever. And I said, but I'm not proud of me. Yeah. Because you can work in a cafe. Absolutely. If that's what you want to do. But it wasn't what was in my soul to do. And I said, they need to see their mom chasing the path that is right for her, and then encouraging them to do the same thing because they're learning from me. Don't just stand still because it's easy to do. So. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, if it was easy, everyone would do it. So I said to him, I need them to be proud of, of what I've achieved that I was true to myself. And as I'm getting getting older and talking to different people, people's truths are different. So someone might want to be a doctor, someone might want to own their own cafe or health food store, work in childcare work in the music industry. It's also different to what makes you marched and beat of your own drum. Yeah, but is that was one of my main drivers was that my children were able to be not proud of me, but just see, because I think that when you do what's innate in you, there's a glow about you. Yeah. And I can feel that energy in that sense. And I want them to do the exact same thing with you. If my son's obsessed with Ben trucks, stinky Finn trucks. Drive a big truck for the rest of your life, mate. You ready? Go for it? Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Happy. That's what that's the thing you know, like I can imagine both of them running away from the microphone. They're just not like me in that sense. Yeah. But whatever it is, it's in your soul you do it and and back yourself first and then others will back you two pages How do you feel about followers of your social media or colleagues, knowing that you do have children, you sort of happy for them to be aware of that. I often feel that it's gives a sense of who you are really, as a person when you because we, yeah, I spent time hiding them away. And not from the media spotlight, but from the fact that I was trying to have it all together and my kids, you know, you need to just thought now I just need to bring them along with the journey. And I've brought all the team meetings before and he's watched trucks and on my phone who not great, but it needed to happen. Yeah. And then you move something spilled his snacks all over the floor. And it's really embarrassing. And I was trying to scrape by he cuz yeah, that's the thing. We just need to don't worry about it, bring them with us get stuff done, because what we're doing multitasking is brilliant. And it has not been done before. Yeah, absolutely. It's like we're paving the way for the future, paving the way for fellow sisters that will come come up the ranks and need us to set the platform. Because half the time we haven't had the chance to learn off of a lot of people. Oh, yeah, it's literally like flying by the seat of your pants is a great explanation for it. Because you're you're like, is this gonna work done? I haven't done this before. Gonna give it a try. What's gonna happen? You know, you're just feeling your way as you go. Yeah, I think it's contagious because other women then in a similar position might go you know what, I'm gonna do that, because I needed that reassuring kick up the bum to do what's right for me, you know? Talking about mom guilt, oh, I had this moment recently where I was, uh, my little one kept asking me to record him doing some tricks on the trampoline. And I went out there and I was so ready to record him. And he's doing his tricks. And I realized I hadn't hit record. Because I ma are in storage is full. And you've taken too many pictures of the kids. And there's deleting them. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a great topic. That one, isn't it? Isn't it? Oh, and you go through and you're like, actually take none of myself. And not that we could walk around taking selfies, but would be nice to have some, you know, inclusion on your phone. Because they're all of the kids doing their little moments of grandeur, aren't they? Oh, yeah. We're always behind the camera. We're never in front of it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that's like a whole topic. That one is pretty well. I think this is innate in us, even though and this is probably applicable to a lot of women that you deal with being mothers in the arts industry. In the media industry. We're used to being on the front of things because of our art form, whether it is emceeing speaking, presenting, playing an instrument singing anything like that mentoring, when you get your children you're on the back because you push them forward to shine in whatever they're doing whether it's so summer's teacher, my five year old she's asked her to read a little sentence at the liturgy on Friday so I've literally move mountains to go and see this one sentence. I'm making a practice practice Indian getting right what one thought he said to carrying on and anyway I was because of COVID you can have that many people there. So it's just you know, a small amount so I was literally moving heaven and earth to make sure I got a spot at this liturgy so I can wave and record the whole thing on my phone. Yeah, and maybe watch it back after I've had a few videos. isn't having to. Yeah. And then so that's the thing we push them to the front of they're the kind of shines in our life. But when you put your work hat on, you are the opposite of that you're the woman that's either you know, you're playing your instrument, or you're talking on the microphone, or whatever it is. Yeah. So it's funny how we kind of wear many hats. Absolutely, and are able to just like, swap them in, in a millisecond, like it's even milli second, there's no hat stand is no time for the hat stand. Instantly, and then your friend needs your help. So you're instantly there for her or him, whatever, whatever. Whoever is needing you at that point. And then you're back on the Mon bandwagon because you've realized it's 530. And you've not sorted dinner. So then, you know, all the time. Yeah, it's so true. It's incredible. I saw a image main things on Instagram yesterday, and it was of a mom, that was, you know, how you have those plates, spinners, and you've got to keep the plates going. And it was like all the different elements of what moms and I noticed that whoever wrote it hadn't put your own. When I looked at, I think, when you're supposed to do your own thing, like your music or your you know, it was like that wasn't even on there. It was like, Oh, my God, like add that in as well. And it was just well, and that's where I think if you don't add that in, you run into trouble later on. It's a difficult task to put it in. It's, it's something we've got to be really conscious of, and really mindful of, but I think if we don't have that element of putting ourselves not before our kids, but making ourselves a priority to Yeah, or something else. You know, it's, it's really, it's, yeah, it's so important. Because then you go through something where you later on your kids don't need you as much anymore. You always need your money, but as much and then you're trying to fill that void with other things where you and then there's that regret where you missed out on doing that for yourself. And I think we're better at doing that now. I think our mom's generation, our grandmothers, I think learned the hard way. Yeah. And then some of them now at age 50, and 60 are living their best version of themselves, because they've realized they've got that freedom. Where is that? When given that, that grace or that exception? Years years ago? Because you were told to just follow what your mom did? You did what her mom? Do they do what her mom did? Yeah, you know, so now we're kind of having this awakening where we're celebrated for having children and doing this as well, because it's not just that we're able to multitask, but we're able to show that the talents that we do have in a certain area. Yeah. And it's like, I've always struggled with this, this identity thing that deep down, like, you're still the same person that you were, act, like you just happen to have a child. It's like, why should all that, you know, goodness and potential and you know, the stuff you give to the world? Why should that just go? Not finished, your mum now, doesn't matter. Yeah. And the thing is, we work so hard in our careers in our early years, you know, especially in the arts, a lot of that is volunteer work based to get base there to get your skill set up to get your name out there to get runs on the board as far as experience, because nine times out of 10 There's no better way of learning something than just doing it. You know, you study at university, and that's all great, but having actual tangible experience doing something, or you know, playing an instrument, the best way to play an instrument is to do it. Public speaking, emcee work, it's all of that. So it's, it's really, it was really something that I think once you start to get that in in a row, and really start to get some runs on the board for yourself, then you get to the point where you're clock's ticking. And you feel like you're literally two versions of yourself because you're like, I want to have children. I've got that yearning, but I'm just starting to get somewhere. And it's like, and then you finished your apple. Oh can I have the chocolate chip biscuit? I promised him a chocolate chip biscuit if he sat quietly. Oh my gosh, that was the best timing. That was amazing. 73 So sorry, no, no, no, you're fine. Honestly, it's this is being a man. Exactly. Yeah, just just say you get that moment of where you start getting some traction in your career, and then something else innate in you comes a knockin, and then that knot gets louder and louder and louder and you can't ignore it but you're torn between doing what you want. to do and what what is what your body wants you to do. And there's no shame in whether you have children or not. But if there's a desire in you, it's very, very difficult to turn that switch off possible. So when you said before, like you just said, you're choosing between what you want to do, it's literally and what you want to do, like you want to do both things. But how you actually do both things. Like it's just this constant, like the juggling out, it's just yeah. And it was interesting. You said earlier, you're doing you do what you want to do. It's not at the expense of your children. You're not saying you're not putting yourself first that's what it was. It's not like you're choosing put yourself first, but you're choosing to acknowledge that part of your life has been worth and it's important that you are going to choose to do that. Yeah, it's not at the expense of everyone, anyone else. You know what I mean? You know, I think a lot of that stigma years ago, where they would have assumed that you are just selfish, and putting yourself first couldn't be any more further from that. Because the love that a mother has for her child is something that science can't explain, the best poet can explain in words, it's felt so deeply, rather than and it can be described as best possible but it's it's so deeply felt that's where so many mothers have turned around to each other and go now, you know, that feeling? And they agree, yes, they get it. So it's not possible to for a mother that wants to be there for her children to just go, oh, well, I'm putting myself first it's not that it's acknowledging that you are a priority to and that you deserve to still be who you are. Because often we're having children at an age where we have still sick, we're not having them at 50 years of age 60 Some, some women are but very unlikely. We're mainly doing it between the ages of 25 and 45. Yeah, it's like we're still young to do what we want to do in our careers. change careers. 5060 Yeah. Yeah, whatever it is, where they go, You know what, I never did this. And I'm kicking myself, but I'm doing it now. Great. Yeah, absolutely. Motherhood and work is no mean feat. And it is incredibly challenging. But I think what's more challenging is the not doing and then not owning who you are, and then not giving yourself an opportunity to shine. Like you being a singer, an incredible singer, I might add you you get this opportunity where if you weren't using your voice and writing music, theory has the opportunity to hear you music and in itself has the opportunity is this art form really that that allows people to feel something when they hear you. And most artists are truly themselves when they are either playing that instrument or sing that song. Most often that they're most often that songs. So what if you're not using your talents that have been the universe has given to you? What a waste? You? Yeah, absolutely. Give yourself back yourself. Know that? Yes, it's it's certainly not easy, not easy at all, by any stretch of the imagination. But what I feel is worse is the lighter the not doing the regret because then you can't change it. That's it, isn't it? It's buy time back. So if there's any any kind of kick up the bum, if anyone needs anything is that moment where you said you were at your your old workplace. And you said I just had this moment of realizing that I needed to follow my passion. And the passion just came things just have a funny way of linking up. Oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah, you just gotta you've got to be, you've got to be open to it. You've got to be like, right, I'm willing to not be in control of this, you know, that little bit of surrender to say, right. Do with me what you will, I guess? And, you know, lately leave me where, where? Where might you know that I'm going to be happy, you know, I'm going to be fulfilled. And yeah, you know what, I also had a conversation with one of my best girlfriends the other day and she said, I'm just feeling lost. I don't want to go back to my old job. But I don't know what I want to do. And I said, the fact that you say that now and she said I'm frustrated because I need to know, I'm getting impatient. I want to know what I want to do. And I said, You got to take your foot off. For starters, take the pressure off yourself and know that if you don't want to go back to your old job, fine, that's something you definitely do know that that's not right. So sit with it for a bit, had these moments of either like meditation or just calmly thinking, I want to I am open to receiving whatever it is that's out there for me. So do some soul searching, don't get frustrated with yourself that you don't know. Just start that those moments of trying to figure it out slowly step by step, because once you've gone one step, two step three step and you've linked up those little lily pads. That's quite a journey. Hmm. And you will get Yep. But there's there needs to be that moment in time where you take the pressure off yourself and not knowing to, which is ahead. So you're so vulnerable, and you're at the whim of whatever. And if you're used to being in control, it's very confronting thing to do. Yeah, especially. And often sometimes we feel that we if things aren't going right in the workspace that we not hide behind our kids, but just throw ourselves into that role more, because we're not ready to make the decision to do a leap in our careers yet. Yeah, because what I would say to that is, that's, that's fine. If you want, if you if you all you want to do is spend all your time with your kids, that's if that's in your soul, and you go for it. But if you're using it as like a bit of a not a hide behind, but a moment to not spend time thinking about what's truly deserving of you, it's only going to fester and get more frustrating and more, you know, pent up. So that's where you go, Okay, well, I am going to spend time with my kids, I'm going to just enjoy them for a minute. But I am also going to take that time to slowly map out my next chapter. Because they will go off to school. And they will, you know, start to be a little bit more independent. When then when you have that time, then that's when maybe you can send other big seeds to things, send those emails or look to do courses, the amount of people that have gone back to do courses, you being one of the mature mature age. The amount of people that have gone back to to study later on because because what they wanted to do has made sense later, it didn't make sense to you to work in childcare. When you were 20 years old, it never entered my mind ever been to the right time. So it was that's where they said you needed to do some other things first, and you were at that prime moment where you could give your maturity you could give your your knowledge. And you could give yourself that that real sense of okay, I'm at a point now where I'm ready to learn because not a lot of us know what we want to do. The minute we finish year 12. Honestly, this is thing I'm not looking forward to my son, my oldest son's in high school is his first year. My youngest son's just 10 seats. So we're highly different ends of things with schooling. But yeah, this thing with Alex, they're saying to him, or what do you want to do start thinking about subjects and it's like, no, stop this. And I keep reminding him, I say to him, remember, I've only been doing this job for nearly nine years, you know, you don't have to decide now, like take that pressure off yourself. Like often it's there's not a lot of, of us that it makes sense. The minute we leave school, and that frustrates us because we go we need to get you know, especially as mothers, we need to get this time in before we have a baby. We need to you know this rush, rush, rush, rush, rush. And that's where I'd kind of come in and remind and say, well, there is time before, during and after. Because people can't get away this day and age just being discriminatory towards mothers and women and pregnant women. It's not allowed. It's a big fat no. And we're deserving of that, that that grace to be given to us. And that that moment of reassurance where we go, You know what, you can do this, because you are more than just who you are to your children, you are still yourself too. And if you combine those two wonderful elements, you live your best version of yourself. Like that was the second best quote. That was brilliant. On that one that is gold. That is on. Oh, please. Thank you. Shinya. That's a beautiful note to end on. Actually. Thank you. That's Oh, my pleasure. To be involved. I was as I said, I was peeling off my fake eyelashes. When your email came through, and I was thrilled to be it so I thought, what better way to start your morning then chat With a like minded sister and have a coffee. No thank you. distraction device that my son moved to biscuits. Oh, I love that. Oh, you had any of your kids come in whilst you've been doing the nasty No, I haven't got to go there even Dan will give me a hug in the kitchen. Yeah, some will be like Stop. Don't Don't don't like it. Yeah. Get your hands off mom. Y'all wanna talk? Wait, okay now from the beginning, motherhood beautiful nightmare. When your child eats something healthy that you make, and they will sit down, and you are literally strutting in the kitchen as if you are Beyonce. You are like Jamie Oliver, you've just served the queen. You know, a palm reader did tell me it looks like you've been treading water your whole life until you're 50. As in the thing you meant to do is not going to happen to you. 50 on my for another lesson that's treading water. I'm like, that's a long time to wait, lady. Yeah, some good legs. I'm gonna we're gonna do in that time. Read a book. First thing I was thinking with my vagina. Like, yeah, isn't it what you know, asking the obstetrician that couple a couple of small sutures, but we're okay. bodies just come away from the top. But it's fine. Have you ever had a push present? I got my son's weird my third ring. My vital Is it better? Yes. Tell us more about your bottle of the eternity ring. As you said Hang on. Do you say eat turd? If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Bianca Morra US photographer + podcaster S2 Ep58 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest today is Bianca Morra, a photographer and podcaster from Cleveland Ohio and a mother of 2. Throughout her schooling Bianca was drawn to photography at different times, but pushed it aside to study mainstream subjects. She didn't seriously consider that photography could be a career path. Bianca stumbled on the work of American documentary photographer Jim Goldberg and his series Rich and Poor, and it was through this that she discovered that photography could be more than a pretty picture, it could be used to convey and tell stories. Feeling inspired, she went to Ringling College of Art and Design in Florida where she did a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Photography and Digital Imaging with a minor in Business Art and Design. After Bianca's employment abruptly ended, she took that as an opportunity to start her own business, She works as a professional photographer capturing memories for families, and as a course facilitator encouraging people to understand themselves more, through the understanding of why they take the photos that they do. Bianca believes in not being afraid to take your phone out and take photo, at any time, and for mums to get in the photos too. Bianca has created the Help Me See podcast - where she holds vulnerable, real conversations challenging the cultural norm & empowering listeners to harness their intentional vision for a purposeful life. Her photography style can be described as an intimate, she has a love for texture and imperfections in her photo editing that favours helping clients feel themselves back to the moment rather than just seeing it. Above all else she believes that photographing your life is a not a luxury, it is unequivocally essential. We are creating our nostalgia now, as we take each photo. **This episode contains discussion around mental health, post natal/partum depression ** I like your work podcast / Monika Crowley's work / Grace Tame Bianca Instagram / website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. My guest this week is Bianca Mora, a photographer and podcaster from Cleveland, Ohio, and Bianca is a mom of two boys. throughout school, Bianca was drawn to photography at different times, but pushed it aside to study mainstream subjects. She didn't seriously consider that photography could be a career path, Bianca stumbled on the work of American documentary photographer Jim Goldberg, and particularly his series rich and poor. And it was through this that she discovered that photography could be more than just a pretty picture. It could be used to convey and tell stories. She went to Ringling College of Art and Design in Florida, where she did a Bachelor of Fine Arts in photography and digital imaging with a minor in business, art and design. After Bianca is employment abruptly ended, she took that as an opportunity to start her own business. She works as a professional photographer, capturing memories for families, and as a course facilitator encouraging people to understand themselves more through the understanding of why they take the photos that they do. Bianca believes in not being afraid to take your phone out and take that photo at any time. And for mums to get in the photos to. Bianca has created the podcast called helped me see where she hosts vulnerable, real conversations, challenging the norms and empowering listeners to harness their intentional vision for a purposeful life. Her photography style can be described as intimate, she has a love for texture and imperfections in her photo editing that favors helping clients feel themselves back to the moment rather than just saying it. Above all else. She believes that photographing your life is not a luxury, it is unequivocally essential. We are creating our nostalgia now as we take each photo. Please be aware this episode contains discussion around mental health, postnatal depression, and anxiety. Today's episode you'll hear music from my trio called LM Joe. We create ambient and new age music, myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband, John, and you can find the links to listen to more in the show notes. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you. Or from the resources online. I've compiled a list of great international resources, which can be accessed by the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you for coming on, Bianca. It's really a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Oh, thank you so much, Alex. I'm so excited to be here. I mean, from the second I just read the title of the podcast when I first became aware of it. I was like, Well, I mean, the most perfect thing ever right up my alley. Oh, that's brilliant. So we're about to you in America. I am about 20 minutes outside of Cleveland, Ohio. Right. So where's that in relation to? I don't know. What's a big city that I know New York. Where is it new in realize now it's seven hour drive from New York? Ah, okay. So it's sort of sort of in the ballpark. there somewhere. Yeah, yeah. Cool. So what's it like over there at the minute is you're coming in to use spring it was summer, spring now. It's definitely getting warm that I feel like we skipped spring and headed straight to summer for some reason. It was like blistering cold and now all of a sudden, it's like super humid. Right. So what sort of degrees like daily temps to get there? We've been around from 70s to 80s in the last few days, but I don't know it's pretty turbulent. It really wavers. Yeah, right. I'm just gonna look at what that is. is in Celsius. So fair. I have this thing where I like I have a I've always been like, are 20? About 21? Yeah, that's nice. I like to know about people's weather. I don't know, it just helps me put things in context, if I can visualize and feel myself in, is I understand what your place is like. Oh, totally sure thing I've always done. And it's, it's weird, but I don't know, it's just one of those things. Like, I just want to know, when you wake up, do you put on a sweater or shorts? Let's see these in that. Yeah, you can feel like I can. Yeah, I want to say I can make a judgment about a face because that's not really true. It's very superficial. But you know, you can get a feel for a place if you sort of get the vibes. What's happening? Yes. You're a photographer and a podcaster, can you share with us what you do how you got into it, I never in a million years planned on creating a podcast at all. It wasn't something that I had planned to do. Basically, last year, about two weeks into my maternity leave, I got laid off from my full time job. And I really didn't see coming like, at all you'd like to think that. And I was there for about six years. And you'd like to think that you would kind of get a sense for it. And when I didn't, I felt very whiplashed I felt so something changed. And I knew that for the tail end of my employment there, it had turned into something that I didn't love. And I knew I wanted to make the switch, eventually to be full time on my own. But I didn't expect the rug to be pulled out from under me. So it was like a little bit of a humbling experience, but also an experience of if I could work that hard and be that loyal, and you know, kind of put that much energy in this one life that I have into someone else's venture, then I certainly can do that for myself. So you know, by the end of it, it was like, Oh, do you would you like to reapply blah, blah, blah. And I was like, You know what? No, I'm gonna double down on myself. At the worst possible time, we had just moved into my new house, our first house ever second baby, you know, it was just of all the times to take the plunge. But you know, in some ways, I feel like it was the best possible time to take the plunge. Because if I wasn't going to do it at the most uncomfortable than what was going to make me do it, you know, otherwise. So? Yeah, that's it. Because when things are really good, you're not your brains not going there is it's Yeah, yeah. Happy. And yeah. Have you had experience in, like photography and that sort of stuff? Like growing up? Or how did you get into that? Yeah. So I was, I really got into it in high school, I was taking all of like, the advanced placement classes, and like the calculus and the English, and it was just what I was doing, but I knew that the only class that I really loved was my photography class. But for some reason, there wasn't. It just didn't occur to me, it didn't dawn on me that I could pursue that it was just like, oh, but that is just too good. This too fun. And I didn't really take it like seriously as a career path. And then I had happened upon Do you know who Jim Goldberg is? He's a documentary photographer, and I happened upon his work. And I remembered specifically because it definitely was a moment where I felt like my brain changed. Like, it was like a, you know, one of those electric moments, where and it was particularly the series he did on the rich and poor, and it were these black and white photographs. They were just very honest, looking at the camera, and then he would hand it to them and have them just write something about what they thought about the photo. So it was just this moment where I was like, oh, like photography can be more than a pretty picture. Like it was just it seems very trivial, but it was a huge moment for me and my brain. And so after that I decided to go pursue it in college. So I went to a private art school, a Ringling College of Art and Design in Sarasota, Florida, and I graduated with a BFA in photography in digital imaging with a minor in Business art and design there and so yeah, that's that's my background and I had I mean, I had been photographing since you know, I could get those digital or those disposable cameras in a very composed The way I, I say that when I was in middle school, there was this moment of me laying in my bed, looking at the ceiling about to fall asleep, where I think the concept of death just dawned on me as well. Things kind of dawn on me like a two boys. I remember thinking about, you know, just like nothing mattering. And I don't know, something just panicked in me. And I felt like, oh, I need to make things to let people understand how I feel about them, I need to make things because eventually, what I think and feel might not matter, like my favorite color, and my favorite band, like might not matter. But whatever I make, can be left behind. So I very much became a maker from that point. Do you find when you watch movies, that you can't just watch it, you have to like find the deeper meaning in everything. Like, it's just I have to I honestly, I have like two modes. I either I have to watch the very, very, like easy to watch like Seinfeld, Curb Your Enthusiasm, the you know, deep emotion, or I'm in the depths of No, I don't know, I I I think I'm I just this past year became familiar with the term HSP highly sensitive person, I really think that I'm like, like, medically that I can't even if I know it's not real, and it didn't happen. I carry it like an anchor on my chest for like weeks. So I have to pick and choose my intake. Yep, no, I can relate to that. It's like that empaths sort of energy where you take it in. And it's like you're experiencing spirit experiencing yourself. Like, I can't listen to like true crime or anything like that. Because I can visualize myself and feel myself in the position of that person. Both people like the victim and the perpetrator. Like, I just can't do it. It's too much. Yes, yeah. And I dropped my sister mad when we watch movies, because there's darkness and she's up there like the I don't know, I can. Yeah. Settlers my, my partner, he is a computer animator. So if we're ever like watching a Pixar movie, or something we'll be watching and be like, Do you know how hard it is for them to do those bubbles. And like a few of us it's really, it's really should be hilarious. And it's like, you're gonna give it to us about your bubbles. Like, oh, my gosh. So I heard about this exercise to like write a letter to someone that inspires you deeply. And then to someone that drives you nuts and to after you're done writing it, change the name to your own name, and then read it again. And, gosh, I want to give credit where it's due, I believe it was on a podcast called I like your work. Yeah, I believe that's what it was. And I was like, that sounds so interesting. So I was in my studio. And I just started writing a letter to this photographer that I loved so much. And I was like bawling, like by myself up and he's like, passed like he passed young. I never met him no exposure to him. But for some reason I feel this like, deep soul connection to him. Anyway, but it made me want to get a tattoo for him because I a few years ago, I purchased a book of his on eBay. And I could have gotten it brand new. But I chose to buy the one that he signed, but he labeled it to bill. And I was like how could bill sell this? He touched it. He taught like I was like, No, I want it. I don't care if it's effed up like I want to have the book that he touched in some way like that. I don't know I carry something for me. So it was like if I get like a a tattoo that said Dear Larry love Bill Oh my gosh. Oh, fat. It reminds me I had a conversation the other week with a lady who's a potter functional product, but she also does some ceramic stuff. And we're talking about how, when you pick up a piece of pie, I've got a not a sugar bowl, what's it called a fruit bowl. And when I pick it up, sometimes I put my thumb in the same spot where there's an indent of the thumb of the person who made it. And it's just that incredible connection. Like, oh, I just spins you out. Like, I just love that, that. Yeah. That just gave me goosebumps. Ah, yeah. Tell us more about your podcast, what it's called, and what you do, and all that sort of stuff. So the podcast is called helped me see. And it it's funny, because it's probably the least planned thing I've ever done in my life. And it continues to be that. And I know that it has to be that for me to continue doing it. So helped me see is all around just having very real and honest and vulnerable conversations, you know, much like you do here, you know, challenging norms. And also just trying to make sense and meaning out of these, like, these feelings that we have that we swear we know better, but we can't help but have and like the wavering of it, and the waffling of it. And so I do have guests on the show. But I also do a lot of solo episodes that are just basically like my audio diary recordings of me just talking about the things that really rev me up. And I would say that one of the, although my focus is in Photographic Arts, and I really have a strong passion point for kind of reimagining the way that we think about our photographs and the way we photographs or our lives. I would say one of the main driving forces of me, being so radically transparent with my own feelings is when I had a bout with postpartum depression. And after my first child, and I was just so taken aback and kind of mad at no one and everyone, I felt like so shocked that I could feel this bad and not have had any sort of exposure to it. Like I and I feel like it is getting better. I do feel like I maybe it's the algorithm, I don't know. But I feel like I'm seeing so much more just like honest sharing. But I think that I just felt so shocked that I was so shocked by how I felt and didn't see it coming at all that I was like, I will never, I will never hide my truth, even if it helps one person. Like I remember coming back from maternity leave. And you know, people were so innocent and welling, well intentioned, but would be like, Oh, that must have been so lovely. And I was like, No, it was really terrible. It was really terrible. And I could see them be uncomfortable. But I had to I had to just be honest, because, you know, that's how I know. That's how I got there. So you know, that person innocently having that exchange with me? If I were to have, you know, glazed by it, perhaps they might be more apt to experience that. So, you know, I love that. Yeah, because I think I have had my own experience with postnatal depression as well. And it's really important, I believe, for what you're doing and what I attempt to do as well to normalize these emotions, that it's not bad, you're not a bad mother for feeling this way. It's a society has got this, this set of expectations of how you're supposed to feel. And I just want to smash them up and say that we can feel however, we want to feel how we need to feel and the more we talk about it, the better that we're all going to be because I think that's the thing the woman that said that to you might not have been a woman sorry. That's how she's been exposed to it. And probably the same thing has had people who maybe didn't have the courage that you did to say actually, no, that's this is not how it is, this is how it is, you know, this is reality. You know, if everybody goes around pretending that it's fine, then you know, it'll continue to be the way it is. Or has been. So yeah, good on you. I mean, in that it, it those are the more acute like I'd say heightened important areas but it, it is rampant. It's like when someone just says, Well, how are you? If you ever say anything other than fine or oh, great, then it's like, okay, that's too much. I just asked because it's a social norm, you're supposed to say, you the script, the script, you know, don't deviate from the script. Yeah, that's it, isn't it like the are there's a delay, I've just started following on Instagram. Who, I mean, there's a lot of women that are doing it now, which is great, you're basically telling it like it is, you know, I'm not a bad mother, because I, I got frustrated with my children today, because they wouldn't listen to me, you know, just just calling it out and saying, This is fine. This is life, and we're allowed to feel crap. You know, the thing that I found really challenging, when I was starting to tell people about my personnel depression is that I, no one said it to me, but I had this idea in my head that I should feel grateful that I was able to have children. So I shouldn't feel this way, you know. And, honestly, it's like, you cannot control the chemicals in your brain, you cannot control that, you know, I've had actually had someone tell me once that depression wasn't real, and I thought, you've never experienced it, you've got no idea, this woman that I met, that, that was reckoned through daily affirmations, you could keep yourself well. And I said to her short, that might be able to help with a low mood, you know, a bit of exercise never hurt anyone, you know, getting outside and talking yourself up a bit. That's great for low mood, but if you use you actually, physically in your brain, the chemicals are not doing what they're supposed to do, then you're going to experience an altered sense of reality. And that's the truth of it. You know, I feel like slapping this woman when she told me that I won't speak to her anymore, because it's like, how do you know, it's scary, it's scary that those those sentences can come out of, you know, because, you know, thank goodness that you have the understanding that you do, because I mean, the last thing someone needs is to feel even more isolated. And yeah, I definitely relate to what you were saying about oh, I should, all the things you should feel it's the least amount of helpful when I was going through it. I'm like, Oh, I'm not in the NICU. I was going through all the reasons why it didn't make sense. And I, you know, should be grateful that something that I was talking about recently is, you know, this, this not only toxic positivity, because I feel like that's was a huge thing for me. But also, I feel like the more nuanced version is weaponizing gratitude with yourself. Oh, I should be grateful. I'm grateful. Why am I feeling if I was more grateful, I wouldn't feel like this. And it's just the least amount of helpful thing ever. Oh, yeah. I want to mention a quote that I found through your Instagram, which was amazing, and I want to hear more about it. So you said the photograph is not just a souvenir to help you remember? Can you share more about that? And the sort of the deeper meaning behind that? Yes, it's strange to hear me quoted. I was like, what what did I say? Say your face you like? Yeah, the photograph is not a souvenir just to help you remember, I, I truly feel that. Photographs, although that is a huge benefit of them. It's not just something to help you remember, I think that it's something that can be used to help you engage more in your life. It's an active viewing and experiencing of your life. And I also there's no notion of, you know, a moment frozen in time, although it is very much an image that stays the same. The meaning transforms and transcends like, time and space. And you know, that staying the same, but we're continuing to grow our lives are changing circumstance, everything. So you can take a photo of something and feel a certain way about it. And two weeks later, a month later, 10 years later, feel completely different about it. First photograph is semi meaningless, and then all of a sudden, it becomes the most important thing because it's the last of whatever, you know, it's just this these magical little blips, I call them breadcrumbs for your life. because not only is it something that I believe to be like a form of acknowledging and, you know, being more present in the moment. But it's also this gift that you give yourself later in life to seek comfort, understanding, healing. I mean, just so much. There's just, it's just the whole world. I mean, that can dive into every nook and cranny. And it's incredible to me, because it's, you know, and I think that it's in today's day and age, it's almost being looked at as something that's like a gluttonous act. Right? Like, whenever you feel like the impulse to take a photo, it's almost like a shameful thing. Like, why can't I just be present? And that is like, yeah, yeah, that's my soapbox. Yeah. And this this thing that oh, you've always got your phone in the in your hand, because you're always thinking about a photo. Yeah. Yeah, I can relate to Yeah, hearing that. Feeling. Yeah. But I mean, you are your own internal compass. And I think that we are super sophisticated. And we know if it's coming to enough to distinguish where that's coming from, you know, if you are feeling the pressure to take a photo because of an expectation, or because you want to post it or, and you also know if it's a very organic spark that you just, it comes out of you. And it's before you even realize that your phone is out. And it's because you have this deep inner knowing that this is a moment for you. Like we see a bajillion things a day, like 360 degrees, like, if we're blessed with eyesight we see so much in a day. And when you have that spark of like, I want a photo of this. It is like a recognizing so many more levels into a moment than we I think we're aware of in that moment. It's like we're wise beyond her years. And, you know, if we just take the photo, even if it's a super snapshot, casual, not cute, whatever, I believe that those are breadcrumbs for leave or later for reason. I was thinking about this, leading up to talking to you I have I have a thing where I have to take photos of flowers, or what I see is intensely beautiful things. And I was thinking about it as you know, as I would because I think everything is that just because I like beautiful things? Or is it is there's something deeper in there. Like that they make me feel good. Or you know what I mean? Like it's not a frivolous thing. Like I was talking to one of the ladies on the mother world episode, Tasha was saying, like I have I collected a lot of artwork of, I'm not going to show you because it's an absolute mess. But I have a corner in my room where I put the proper artwork that real artists did that I put in frames, and I just I love having them. They're just so beautiful, and I love them. And she was saying how society can view beauty as a frivolous thing. You know, what's your take on that? I believe that. And also, Tasha is like a genius. I wish. I was like, I don't even understand the magic coming out of your mouth right now. I believe that we respond to things that we don't know until we know, I think that it's with the flowers, perhaps one day, okay, like, ah, that's why I get that a lot. I get that a lot. Like, I have these moments where I feel like I've had this incredible breakthrough. And then all of a sudden, I look back and I'm like, I've been doing the same shit for 20 years. It's just a different way. So far as to like, I think that what we're recognizing, and that the same way I feel about taking pictures like of your daily life, like whether it be a flower or whether it be a moment of your kids or whatever, not knowing what exactly you're responding to, until you look back at it from your bird's eye view and find that common thread and understand what it is you're responding to. You know, I just I don't know why this is making me think it's kind of it's similar but not exactly the same. I think about that photographer. I was telling you about my favorite photographer. Ever. I had this moment of like there's this other photographer that I usually am not like the biggest fan of his work. It's beautiful, but I found this one book of his and I was like oh my goodness like I'm I just have this and I didn't understand why. Because I'm like, he's not usually my fit might you know exactly for me, but this feels like, oh, and I open it. I could cry just talking about it. It freaked me out so much. I had no idea. Apparently, my that photographer that's my favorite Larry, she mentored him. And he specifically was the thank you for that book. I was sobbing, I was like, Are you kidding? Like, you can't make that up. And it's just what is for us is for us as for us, and the more we're able to like recognize it. I feel like the more we pull it in, which is why one of in my deep dive, of course, I made I late and it's all about this and our photographic tendencies, but it's called and some people, I don't know if I should change the title, because I feel like some people get confused by it. But it feels so true to what it does. I called it manifest your memories. Because I, I desire to help you just feel more confident in your ability to recognize your right moments, not better photos, not whatever. But the photos that are meant for you. Because once you know what your right moments are, you see more of them, and you create more of them. Yeah, yep. Yeah. When you're aware. And you you've got that in your mind. You're very conscious of it. And yeah, yeah. So you mentioned your course there. Can you share more about what you do in your career? You post creation in your education? For people? Yeah, yeah, it's, I mean, it's all about in uncovering of you. It really is. I know, it's, sometimes it takes me a bit to explain, because I think that because I'm a photographer, I think it's more expected that I'm helping you take better pictures, but really, it's helping you kind of understand what you're responding to, and what that process can give to you. Because it really can be depending on, you know, the emotional state you're in, you can take a snapshot, because you just want to quickly get it and just be in the moment or it could really be like inexperience, I think that we underestimate the amount of decisions we make, especially people that don't quote unquote, identify as creative, which is come on, I got a bone to pick with that everyone's creative. Yeah, absolutely agree with that. Yes. It's like all from the framing to the, you know, what, how far you're in or out, even if it's like an amateur, whatever. It's all very important, and just kind of helping us reimagine, and like gain a new respect and understanding for your unique vision of your life. Yeah, that's the thing I think you don't want to diminish, just because the photo might not be aesthetically perfect or pleasing or whatever, that does not diminish the fact that whoever took that photo was taking it for a reason that's relevant to them. Which, yeah, and I guess that's art, too. It's like, everything's subjective. You know, the person that painted something, was doing it for their benefit. They weren't doing it, to make it beautiful for you to put on your wall. Like, you know, everyone's got that meaning inside of them that comes out in their creativity. Yeah. Oh, I mean, I was just talking to someone who like, just burst out crying because she was flipping through her phone and she had been somewhere and she just saw, I could cry, she saw a picture that her son had took of her that she didn't know he took, and it's just the thought of, it's enough to bring me to tears, you know, like it just everything has like boundless opportunities for like meaning and to touch you and you know, when I think about our, you know, the quality of like, professional photos or whatever I think about just the complete catalyst for my whole business, which was like the passing of my beloved dog. I say that his passing was like this completely unplanned, unintentional, like, confirmation of my whole concept of like, the work that I'm doing and everything that has come since then, because it was my first real death. It like close to me lucky enough. It was my end. It just happened last year. And it was when I went back to look through the archives of my photos of him. They it was the weirdest thing because if they function the way I thought they would, it was like Yes, this is what I encountered like this fear I carried with me for so long of losing anyone and him. I was interacting with it the way I wanted to, but something that I wasn't shocked by but I was, I was impressed by how intense this was, was my comfort and desperateness for the photos that were the worst quote, unquote, like, the blurry cellphone photos, right just happened to Cat catch, like a really funny look on his face with the jowls or like, you know, us laying in bed, it was so dark, you can barely see. But I remember I just really wanted to capture, like how he was like, nestled in me. And it wasn't the gorgeous, Regal ones, like, I'm so happy to have them. I love them. But the ones that I was yearning for, were not the most beautiful ones. You know, that's, I'm so passionate and sharing that because I would never want someone to not take the beautiful responsibility of taking the most important pictures of their lives, because they're too busy, you know, waiting for a professional to do it for them. Because that professional could never take the most important pictures of your life. It's only you. Yeah, and that's the thing, like, and I have had professional photographers on the show before. So I'm not saying this to diminish their worth, by any means. But I feel like it's something that people they put off until the time's right? Like, I will wait to get the professional shots to finish having our family or I want to lose a bit of weight first before I do it. So you're putting off capturing the moments that are happening, actually your life is happening. Until you get to a point where you feel like things are, I'm putting that in inverted quotes, air quotes, again, a right or perfect, which is the horrible word. You know, so it's like, taking the photos every single day or you know, every time the moment calls to you wildlife is happening. And you can then you can get your photos that you want to have the beautiful photos on the wall, which look amazing. You walk into people's houses. I don't have them because I don't know, I just don't like seeing my big head everywhere. But you know, and what's important to to other people, you know, we're all different, and of what you know, we want. But yeah, like not letting life slip by and not letting life happen to you. But you're actually experiencing your life as it's happening to you. Yes. And I mean, I know that what you're saying makes me think about how, I mean, it's no secret that the most important moments of our lives are the tiniest, like it's the mundane, quiet ones. And, you know, the, the times that we usually think about hiring and investing in you know, photography tends to be the events and, and, you know, for for good reason, too. It's an investment and it's a production, it is a thing, but I mean, I, I think about how funny it is that I'm the photographer of the family. And oftentimes on the holidays, it's the last time I'm pulling out my camera, like unless it's like a camcorder or something because I just, I don't there's already enough going on that day. I don't, I don't need more on the plate like I don't I know for me, those are not the moments that are the most important moments. So unless something trips up inside of me and I do take the photo, but it's kind of like inverted, like those, like those milestone moments are, are very sweet. And they're important not to diminish them. Like the celebration is always important. But I mean, not to be cliche, but it is it's like your life is like everything. And then the graduation. A wedding. It's like, those are not a moment that are like the meat of your life. Yeah, I just as we're talking about that reminds me of I had a guest on the podcast, Monica Crowley. I had her on the podcast. She's an Irish visual artist, and she's really, really passionate about recording. The moment she's a predominant oil. Artists works with oils, and one of her works is of the items in the sink. So she did this series of things that were in a sink because she was spending a lot of time at the sink. So it was like recording just these mundane, everyday ordinary moments. Yeah, because as moms, we we do a lot of repetitive tasks. There's a lot of things we do a lot every day. Yeah. And what how what do you feel about this? Moms making sure they're in photos? Is that something that you're keen about as well? Yes. I actually have a I have a I have to send you the link. It's just a free challenge. I'm so passionate about it. I made this like inbox challenge. It's brilliant. You sign up and you can just get through it's over three days three prompts. I'm not reinventing the wheel, I'm saying very simple things. But the point is, my biggest point is in this topic is to not make permanent decisions off of temporary feelings. Because, listen, I'm not immune to this, like, we all know, when we feel like we're having a good day or not having a good day, or we're this or that. But not taking that moment to get in the photo regularly, is making a very strong decision for yourself leader, and not only yourself, but your kids to not, you know, not being in that frame. And also, I mean, I think about my whole life up until, like, last year, I hated my profile, I just hated the bump on my nose hated it. And then all of a sudden, I looked at this photo last year with me and my two boys, and I, it was a straight profile picture. And I was like, I don't care anymore. I was shocked. I was like, not only do I not care, but I actually quite liked that picture. And it's like, imagine if I would have been ducking from the camera, you know, we're very conscious of it. You know, I think that sometimes we can get caught up in like all of the posting in the social media, but we have to remember that, you know, not saying that, to make yourself uncomfortable, when it's not something that feels good to you. But at the same time, take comfort in not all of these photos are for anyone else to see, like your photographs, or you know, it's like your visual diary of your life, you know, so. And I think that we can underestimate our, the healing we get from that as well. I think about what my photos of me from postpartum Of course, I took the pictures of you know, I've made myself up and blah, blah, blah with the babies. But those pictures make me feel uncomfortable to look at because I see myself smiling. And I know, like, I know what it felt like. And it makes me uncomfortable to see those. And then I see the pictures that I took in my lowest hours. Because I do you have that weird thing where I'll take a selfie when I'm not well, and I find such compassion for myself that I don't know that I would have thought to even have for myself had I not seen the pain of like a previous version of myself, it's kind of like, you're looking at a picture of yourself as a little girl. Like you just have this compassion that you don't have for yourself as as naturally now, which is something that you know, I feel like also needs to be worked through and I'm working through but these photographs are openings for us, huh? Yeah, I love that. So one of your I don't know whether just call it a program or a course. Sorry, is called nostalgia now 10 member membership, can you share sharing with us what that is about? That is my newest creation. And I say that I knew that I was onto something when I had when it came to me. And I did a like a mock run of it by myself. And I was so excited that I was like panic, because if I haven't I've been doing this for myself in my life for longer. So in full transparency as as usual with me. So my course I was finding I'm like this is it's just hard to explain succinctly. Right? Like, I don't think that it's people understand it as quickly. And I think that it's it can be confusing if you're not already like a part of this world. And I was like what is a way to like, implement the theory and the function of like what I'm getting at here that in a way that's like doable, simple, sustainable, and like realistic for like busy overwhelmed moms. And this is what I thought of i It's a once a month meeting. And I also have like a portal of like different resources because we have an intention for each month. And I'll add like curated meditations in it and I'll upload the video versions of my podcast as a way to like keep momentum through the month. But at the in this meeting, it's two hours in the first hour is like coworking, so I send out these templates that are just artfully done and there's like only space for three or four photos. And I put like a vague prompts in it like something that made you feel expansive or something that you want to take with you for the rest of your life or something, whatever. And you're only allowed to look at all of the photos up on your scroll from the last month. And so you've been on your music, we are an hour your were muted on Zoom, and you're just looking at the photos that took place. Over the last month of your life, and you can only pick four, which is a weird, hard, but also fascinating thing, it's just this crazy way to get intentional. And also see the scope of what happens in a whole month, I'm shocked at what happens in a whole month. And to kind of like witness yourself from like a bird's eye view, because you know that you're the taker of these photos, and to like, look back and see, notice what you noticed, and then create this thing. So you have like this visual of the that month of your life. And then we go around, and it's like adult show and tell. And we just talk about why we chose each photo. And you know, like, what that month and that intention felt like for us. And I really feel like it's such a beautiful way to check in with yourself and make space for yourself in a in a cadence that is realistic, but also so helpful. Because how often do we look back? And we're like, it's been six months into the new year, what the fuck am I doing, like I said, I'm gonna do this, and I haven't and whatever. So it's a way to like, keep you account a gentle way to like, keep you accountable, and like connected to yourself and to your, you know, wrapping up a month and saying, Okay, this is the way this month played out. And like, this is what I'm hoping for this month, you know, and to keep you sort of anchored to the moment. So like, I know, I'm the same, like, it's June, this is insane. Like, what has happened. But yeah, and to actually take stock each month and remembering that Ah, that's right. And, and I think that's important that that why we took that photo and why we chose to include, you know, included in the prompts. In those four photos, like it gives you that time to reflect on yourself, and maybe how you feeling or things that you might like you said, things you want to do that you're putting off or, you know, it's like, I don't want this to sound rude at all. But it sounds so simple, but it's so big and meaningful. You know, like, it's just, I don't know, it's really powerful, isn't it? And as moms like we're so we are so busy, and we're always doing things for other people. And to be able to carve out time for ourselves can often feel like, you know, a luxury or guilt thing, you know, but to actually stop and take stock of ourselves, you know, instead of always saying to other people, how are you? How can I help you, you know, what does this person need? What are my children need, you know, looking at ourselves. And that can be challenging, I think for for many people would be hard to say Well hang on a minute, I'm the least person that matters here. You know that we're putting everybody else first all the time. So it would open up so many things for for everybody. Oh, it's incredible. And it's you know, right now it's a very intimate group. And I will I first to admit, I am a self proclaimed hermit introvert, like the community part of any up until a year ago, the community part of anything I was like, Okay, I mean, I'm a lone wolf. I'm the person that if I was in a group in high school working on a project, I'm like, I'll see you later I'll put your name on it fine. Like not at all, but the value of connecting with like, like feeling souls, not even like minded or like, it's just people that you just see each other. I mean, every time we like, there's almost tears, you know, and it's just so to be witnessed, to be able to like speak your truth and also be witnessed by people that you just know, get it. It's, I don't know that there are words for it really, like I feel like often people can kind of shrug it off and I know that I was one of those people before experiencing it for myself. But you know, I think that that element of it not only does it keep us accountable to actually do it, but it makes it so much more fruitful and if it gives it so much more space. Hmm. Yeah. Now I love it good on you. I think that's a wonderful thing. And I'll put all the links if anyone's interested in checking this out. I'll put all the links in the show notes and that is awesome. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. Now, let's talk about your children. Oh yeah. The D so you've got two children, boys, two boys. Oh boy. I'm hearing you in almost four year old caches, and then Silas is like 16 months. Oh, nice little boys. Yeah. And they are so different. So different. My first one. It's funny I, I have like, I really do wonder if like their births had something to do with how they are now because my first one was is a very sensitive, deep feeling intense, little boy. And like my labor was really hard. It was like a very, I got postpartum, the whole thing. And then my second son, I was like bopping on a ball Post Malone. And he is just a savage. She is like, nothing upsets them. Everything's a joke to him, like, different. You know what, there might be something in that because my first labor was very, very quick and intense and incredibly, horribly insane. And my sense, the same is a real is real impact. Everything's really deep. And he takes things in so sensitive. And the other one ah, water off a duck's back, you know, completely different. How old? So the older one, he's 14, and my little one is about to turn seven. So, so it stayed true. It stayed true to them as they grew. Oh, hey, personality? Absolutely. They're just like chalk and cheese. Unbelievable kids. Larry sees often wonder how that happens when you've got the you know, in our case, you know, the same the same parents? How are they? Ah, it's insane. How do you find then they're coming into your world, you becoming a mom, how has that affected the way you see things in your photography? I feel that they've definitely, it's like a, I don't know, it's making me think about like a magnifying glass like, wood on concrete. With the sudden I get it feels like a very acute, like heightened everything. But I definitely really didn't know I didn't understand what my transformation would be like in becoming a mother. I think I had this underlying belief that once I had children, my cup runneth over from them. And I would the emphasis like, because, you know, I'm a naturally anxious person, I get very overwhelmed, but I felt like once I have kids, like that will be my world. I will focus on that. And that will be so fulfilling and XYZ and this is how I'm going to be. That's not at all how I was like, it's just crazy to me. And it you know, it sounds so naive. But I really did think that like I had a friend who had a baby who, you know, she was very much on the fence and didn't know if she ever wanted one. And then when she did she was just on genuinely on cloud nine blissed out. And I was like, Oh my gosh, if she was blissed out, I'm gonna be like, correct because I have been wanting a baby for so long. Just not at all, how, how I felt and how I've kind of processed the change, but, you know, they are still like a boot camp for me. I mean, I am like, a they're a mirror for me in that. They intensify all of the best and worst in me. And I am so aware of when I'm at my worst in terms of what I'm feeling and what I don't want to project because I don't want to pass on the traits that I've inherited to my children. So there, they keep me honest, in not that I'm always you know, I always pass the test in, you know, not doing my natural reactions. I I have like a very overly protective worrywart, Italian New York father. And I just grew up with like, the most worry, fear consumed everything. And I'm very much trying not to pass that on. And I know that they can sense even when I'm not saying it, I know that they can sense that energy from me. So they're really helping me to become more aware and work through that. Hmm. Yeah, I can relate to that. That's yeah. I love that. It's interesting. I actually saw this quote, this just this morning when I was scrolling. I really want to find it now. But I don't know if I'm gonna be able to it was about the gist of it was how basically the gist of it was We're very different parents and our parents were deliberately we're trying to do things differently. We're trying to, and I'm not saying our parents did a bad job, that was the world that they lived in is a different world that we're parenting in. Yeah. What was, you know, acceptable, the norms of what you did and how you interacted with your children. So we're conscious of that. And we want to, I mean, I guess we don't, we don't want to put our kids through things that we went through, you know, being kind to our parents that are listening. And they probably say the same thing about their parents, you know, each generation learns as we go. So, it's, it's overwhelming, because it's like, it's everywhere. Like, it's in the most innocent of places, and the most normal of tongues, like, I think about something that'll fly out of my mouth. And, or I'll hear someone else say, and I'm, like, hold the phone. That is so effed up, like, so. It was, you know, if my kids no tears, be a big boy, no tears, I'm like, Just fucking terrible. But it's like, so it's so quote, unquote, innocent. But it is until it's not like, it's like, thank goodness, we're having these like, awakenings to it, but it's like, kind of, you know, if you sleepwalk through it, and if you just let it happen, because that's what has been done before. We all know how that goes, you know. So it, you know, all we can do is the best we can do, but it could drive you crazy. So I think that giving grace and being grateful for the awareness, because that is the most beautiful thing. And that, you know, I mean, it just does tie back to the way I think about photography. I the awareness and the impulse and the thought to take a photo, just the recognition of like, hey, that doesn't feel right saying that to my kid, or that is so much more powerful than any action you take. In that moment. Like, you could fuck it up. You could say you could have said that and like, then they went to school and you didn't have a moment to make it right in that moment. Or, you know, you know, you thought to take the photo, and then you did but it didn't feel right, you wish you didn't, whatever. It's, it's the awareness. It's the seeing it, that is the biggest breakthrough of all that unlocks everything that comes after and it builds from there. So I think releasing ourselves of like, doing it wrong, or like should have what occurs or regrets and just feeling gratitude for like, Hey, I saw that, like, I'm aware of that. Yeah, that was a big, that's a really good point, isn't it? It's, it's really relating to like this conversation that I'm having right now, presently, actually, ironically, about how, like presence and how this term feels like this elusive like, Yeah, can't ever grasp it. Like I, I always am hearing often that like, a lot of people, I feel this I've set it to, it's hard to be present in my life. And what really got me thinking about this in a more, like, problem solving type of way is that when I would tell people that I truly believe that you don't have to choose between being present and taking the photo, I would see their shoulders drop, like, as I was anyone to tell them give them permission how to be in their life the way they want to be. And it just made me think about how we are putting presence on this pedestal and like thinking that like, it has to be this, you know, this like come to whatever moment when really, we need to just recognize our own unique ways of being present. Because it's not just one way it's not just you know, we are when we are we are and it looks in different ways. Like sometimes I think about presence. He even when you look it up the definition is like to not have your mind stray from the current situation. And when I don't I don't even agree with that. It's like sometimes presence is like, okay, like, I'm looking at the pores on my kid's face and like, really like studying him. And I'm present and sometimes I'm present and I feel like I can see through like different lifetimes. I'm like looking at a moment. And I like zoom up and I can see like so much more and of course my brain is Going somewhere else, but like, I really feel like both versions of presence in my life like I don't Yeah, that see, I can agree with that too. Yeah. Because it's like, yeah, I can't even explain it but I know what you mean Yeah. Now I'll go to a subject that I really I love talking about. And I always say it sounds terrible when I say I love talking about guilt. But I just find it so fascinating. And I think that idea when you mentioned about this presents being this attainable thing, everyone's got to be present, because everyone's telling us we've got to be present. And if we're not present, we'll feel bad about it. This whole guilt laden thing, talk to me about your, your thoughts about guilt and like mum guilt, I put that in air quotes as well. It's like, it's like a magician that like keeps pulling like the flags out of his Our scars out of his bag, it just you keep peeling off the layers when you think you're clear of it. I think that guilt, mom guilt is a very specific type of guilt. And I also feel that artist, Mom yield is an even more cute version of it. Because being that intensely aware of the impermanence of something and being able to see the depths of the beauty, and so many moments of your life, can make you feel so beholden to meet that moment there. And sometimes you're just not there. Sometimes you do. The other night, my two little boys are in the tub together the most adorable thing you've ever seen. I just wanted to go on the bed and be scrolling my phone. I just wasn't i How many times are they going to be in the battle? It's like you go through the Rolodex like I know, I know, a B, C, D E, I know why I should be there. But I'm not right now being present for me and to my needs, is to go lay down on the bed and not handcuffed myself to this moment to like, keep my energy where I want it to be to feel like I can actually appreciate them when I'm in that space that I want. And I think about when I first drove the coast to California, for the first time ever, I'd never been to the West Coast. I drove from LA to San Francisco. At first I was like, Hi. I was not literally but like I just felt I was like, Oh, I never seen such beauty in my life. I was like vibrating. By halfway up. I was like, literally nauseous and I don't think it was carsick. I was like, I can't it's too much. Like I feel like I need to and I closed my eyes. I was like, I can't see any more. I can't I can't take in any more. Like, I'm you know, and that's kind of what I feel like about about guilt and about it's this it's the knowing it's that wise like I get it I know all of the reasons why I this is amazing, but I'm just not I'm not there and I think the more that you can feel confident about choosing yourself in those moments makes you even more richly there for the times where you choose that moment you know, that is brilliantly put honestly, I need to put a put a hand clap that was amazing. You have literally summed up how I feel about mom guilt. Don't make me cry. Like honestly. I'm going to take this moment and frame it like that is just so good. You will hear this quote again. Love it. Yes, it is so hard to like to know it's like you know, cuz you sit there and you can be so hard on yourself and you're like I know better. I see this is incredibly How could I not want to be there but you Just there's, there's only so much going on. And that's it, isn't it? And that whole thing of that if we can't, you know, we have, we can't be this martyr, we can't be this completely selfless person that puts our needs above everybody else's. Because we won't survive. And it's not sustainable. And it's not. I don't think it's a good thing to be showing our children either that, you know, the mother is the sacrificial lamb and yes. Yeah, how would you want your child to put themselves like to prioritize themselves and in their life? You know, it's funny, I this quote, I went to an artist talk in when I was living in San Francisco, and it was it stuck with me. It's one of those things that stuck with me, there's a couple of those. And you know, sometimes something sticks with you. And you're like, I don't know that this is going to be good to be sitting in me. But I've had a couple of those moments. But this one that in particular, I'm thinking of I'm thinking of it's Francis Ford Coppola. And it was a q&a part of the lecture. And someone raised their hand and said, Well, what advice would you give a young artists director in their career? And he sat there for a moment, and he said, It was the most honest thing you could have said, you can't even get mad at him. He was like, I'd say, if you're a male, the starting your career, get married, have children. If you're a woman, don't get married, don't have children. Like that was his career advice. He's right. He was right for what he was saying, for that time. I get it. Because I feel that I'm in a very balanced relationship. And it's still not balanced. It's still there is not apples to apples. If we had the same night planned, and he was out, my my partner was out. And then I was out, we took turns. I'm not exaggerating, the night would be three times harder. For me. They're different children with me, they feel there's so much more turbulent, absolutely. It's just the way it is. And unlike the natural, and he and my partner, he is so accommodating and helpful when I need it. But this the setpoint the state that is the weight sways this way. And, you know, there has to be work done to help balance that and we have to be extra vocal, in my experience, I have to be extra vocal to speak for my needs. And that requires excavating and that requires, you know, realizing inequities where we don't even realize it's happening, but it is so deeply ingrained. We don't even identify them. Yeah, yes, yes. Yeah, it's funny that I feel like my children like I had a perfect example last night where my little fella was some my husband and put him to bed. And he was out. Two minutes later, he came down to me and wanted to chat and I. And I said, I said, Hang on a sec, aren't you supposed to be in bed? And he goes, Yeah. And I said, I said, I, I did hate using these words, but I do. I said, I'll tell dad. And he goes, and he races back to bed. And my, my eldest son was there. And I said, Hi, why does that happen? And he goes, he goes, Yeah, I remember when when I was little, that wasn't even home. But you pretended he was home and called out to him. And that made me get back in my bed. You know, but like, my husband is not, you know, a big domineering men. He's not like physically like, he, you know, he doesn't there's no reason for my children to fear him. It's just this whole thing or wait till your dad gets home you know, like this. This culture is you know, dead serious. Our mom you know, she might let me stay up a bit longer because she's a softy. You know, it's just this it takes me an hour to get my son in bed if I he like puts a I say it's like his physical alarm system on me. He'll swing his leg over mine. So I tried to like double Oh, seven get out of the bed and I can so I'm like, half the time I fall asleep putting him to bed because he prisoner. And, uh, he, my partner will put them take him up. He sings to lullabies to him, and he's out and that's it. I'm like, Ah. And it's like, it's beautiful. And but that's the thing too. Like, what the girl it's like, sometimes I love it. I always used to think before I had kids. I'm like, How precious is it that they only want mommy? Now I'm like, wow. Oh, no. And sometimes I love it. And sometimes I hate it and that's fine. That was like when, when the boys were little they they often they say dad dad first, like, that's easier for a child to pronounce. Oh, when's he gonna say mom? When's he gonna? Like he says, Mom, and then he never stopped saying that kid is saying, Well, that's what we feel about my, my youngest walking, everyone's like, is he walking yet and we're like, we don't want him. Like, he'll be walking the rest of his life. It's a new world for us, like we joke about like kicking his knees out from under a cake curl and maybe ctrl T. Yeah, look, I love the way that this conversation has become, I know we're being quite light hearted. But it's, it's true. Like, there is nothing wrong with saying, I need a break in this situation, whatever the situation is, and not feeling guilty about I should be doing this, I should be there, you know, this should that, you know, we put on ourselves because of the external use sort of pressures that we feel. I don't know, I keep I have this thing with social media. You know, it's great. And I utilize it a lot for, you know, my needs for my, for my podcasts and my singing and stuff. But I think it's got the way that people use it. It's got quite bad at making us feel like crap. It's got quite good at making us feel like crap questions. Yeah. You know, all these things are getting better. And like I said before, it might be the algorithms, I'm seeing a lot of good things. But I still feel like there's this, we're just, we don't want to tell it like it is. We want to keep this facade up that everything's fine and everything's good. And this may be a parent's wave, like, you don't speak about who you voted for. And you don't talk about religion, you know, that sort of that way of doing things. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I think something that I heard recently brought up and like, oh, boy, yeah, it's true is it's like a a wave of curated authenticity, like, quote, unquote, real like, oh, yeah, this is this is Instagram real Instagram real. And then you don't get to see the real root. Like taking it like one step down from the manicured Yeah, I mean, and, you know, I get I get torn with thinking about it and talking about it. Because like, I I feel that just because I decide that I want to be a stand and a, like, take a stand with transparency, and realness doesn't mean that someone else should have to do that. So I, you know, people have very different levels of like, comfortability and privacy. And I totally respect that. And, you know, to be honest, I don't, I don't even quite I don't even quite know, like, what, what I want from it, because when I think about how it harmed me with the postpartum you know, anyone that I could get frustrated with, like, I would know that they also struggled, but they struggled internally, which is makes me sad, too. You know, it's not even that like, oh, you only post the highlight reel, and I know you struggle. It's like, what can we do to like, just bring these conversations up, like what you said about how we don't talk about that? Because it's like, oh, it's tacky or it's this or it's that it's like what you know, what, what is the hiding? Like, what is who by whose standards like I think it's so funny whenever my friends like planning something and she's like, well, what's the etiquette? Like, whatever the fuck you think is right like it what's the etiquette? Like, no, I don't, but we're gonna go look up whatever some woman said 200 years ago. even like the right way to be a lady, you know, just like so funny that these things, I think it's just, if nothing else, this constant questioning, it's like, let's keep asking questions like, why are we doing the things that we're doing? Why are we, you know, wanting to, you know, match our coordinator clothes for this the photos like, is it a passion point that you love? Great? Is it something that you feel beholden to? And everyone else is doing it that way? Probably not the best reason to do it, you know, it's like, it's something that's right for you are right for someone else's wrong. And I think as long as we just keep asking questions and keep having conversations like this, and you know, these platforms that we're used to just say, hey, it's been like this for this amount of time. But why, like, why, why are we doing it this way? I think that that is the most helpful thing that we can do. Oh, yeah. I completely agree with that. It's just, yeah, we had I'm not sure if it made it to the to your media over there. But we, we had a prime minister, we've changed prime ministers, thank goodness. His name was Scott Morrison and he he is a dickhead, sorry, sorry, sorry, liberal people. We have a is a young lady over here called Grace time. And she was she's an activist in the space of survivors of sexual assault. And she was named the Australian of the Year in 2021. And she's amazing. She's, she tells it like it is she gets up there. And she doesn't care who she's talking to. She's gonna tell she's gonna talk as she wants to talk. And she did amazing things. And she's do it. And at the end of her 12 months of being Australian of the Year, they have a function it was Parliament House where it was at the house of the Prime Minister. That's irrelevant, sorry. But anyway, he, they all go there, the Young Australian of the Year old Australian here, whatever. And she, we have in the Liberal government in the last three years, there's been this incredible, probably longer than three years, sorry, this incredible tone of misogyny. And there's all this stuff been coming out about sexual assaults happening in the workplace in at the Capitol. And, wow, the Liberal government sort of, I don't know, sort of tried to brush it off and hide it and support it continued to, to employ Members of Parliament while they're under investigation for for alleged sexual assault. And anyway, so she wasn't happy about that, as a lot of us weren't, and she called them out on it. So when she went to this long story short, she went to this end of the year event, and she refused to shake his hand, and she didn't look him in the eye. And all the men of Australia just went, how dare she, she shouldn't have been there if she wasn't going to smile. You know, it was just this huge moment of division, where so many women just went well, good on her, like, what is he done? He's he's trying to hide this stuff. He hasn't put things in place to sort it out, whatever. That it was this moment. And even my husband was like, Oh, she's not going to smile. She shouldn't have gone. It's like, men standards about how women have to behave in society. Like you're just saying that, you know, this etiquette. 200 years ago, this woman says you have to put your fork on you on the right, and the spine goes there. And then you have these cups for dessert, like, oh, just makes my blood boil. Yeah, like, yeah, and her and by her behaving in that way, it's caused this huge arrow, and it's done exactly what the women needed and wanted and it's brought it into the forefront. You know, she was so brave to do that, you know, just don't play Happy Families and don't think that everything's fine. And just smile and get on with life, like women have had to do for hundreds and hundreds of years. And, you know, oh, sorry. No, I think incredible to me, even if, even if he didn't have this huge scandal out and all of these very valid reasons. Even if it was something private that happened that no one else knew about. You don't want to shake someone's hand. You know what the funniest thing was? Probably 12 months before that. We had, we had a lot of big fires over here. We had a really bad fire season. And the prime minister went to okay, this how much of a decrease bloke was while the big fires were happening? He went on a holiday to Hawaii with his family. So everyone was like, He's not present. He's not here and his comment his comeback when he was questioned about he said, I don't hold the hose. Right. That was his comment. He doesn't need to be in Australia while this is happening because he's physically not there putting out the fire and everyone was like, you idiot. So he went in visited the fire grounds and went and visited the where it was all happening and he went up to this fire man put his hand out to shake his hand. And this man said, I don't want to shake your hand right? Everyone in Australia we could on your mate Good on you for not shaking his hand. Right but when when a woman does it for different reasons, but it's still women doing the men went apeshit and all we were Yes. Grown Your Grace. Just it's just incredible. I can't it's like you can't make this stuff up. You can't? Oh, yeah. Want to believe that? It's still like, I know sometimes you feel like you're like am I 100 years ago? Like what is that? What it but it is? It is? Yeah, sometimes you think the only things missing is our corsets in the big skirts, like we're still living in that world. Now I want to ask you about your it to do with that concept of identity about being a mother and, and your children? Do you feel like it's important for your children to know what you're doing and as they grow up to see that their mum is contributing to the world in other ways other than meeting their own needs. I think when I think about what I want my children to know, about me. I think first and foremost, I think about wanting them to feel fully seen. And although I mean, there is a child and you know parent relationship. i i I want them to feel like they I want to prioritize them knowing me like I don't want to have a shield them from the real me in many senses. Like something I heard one said that I thought was beautiful. And it's very simple. It it was actually do you know Dax Shepard is he's an actor. Yes. And Kristen. I forget. Anyway, Kristen Bell, and Dax Shepard. podcast as well. I was on one of his podcast episodes that they were talking about how if they have a fight, and if it's not like they go out of their way to fight in front of their kids, but like, if they have a fight, and they witness in any way or arguing or whatever, they make sure that they also witnessed the resolution and the working through it. It's just like this level of transparency of like, and just knowing like, knowing having my kids know who I really am is important to me, way more than them feeling like that their mom contributed, like whatever I end up doing. That is not as important to me as like, feeling them feeling like they knew who I was, and not having them like discover things about me that you know, and, and that's always kind of been even outside of like being a mother. I've always felt like that, like, one time was a maybe a spicy but whatever. I really like, you know, someone asked me once, how do you feel about being a woman? In a, in a industry where, you know, historically ABCD and bubbeleh have? How is it? How do you feel about your feminine perspective? And I was like, I don't want to sound ignorant and I so I'm grateful to the trailblazers and I you know, there's a wealth of history and there's so much to be said but also, I am not. That is not the lens that I choose to hold with me and frame. What I do and My life and what I put in the world. And I'm grateful that like, I don't have to feel like I'm like, That is a torch that I'm carrying now. And I understand, like, what came before me to enable that. But I'm here and I'm now and that is not something that I'm prioritizing. I'm not thinking about that in that way. So I don't, you know, I don't feel that, you know, being can, beholding myself to contributing in any sort of specific way is something that resonates with me, it's more this like, need of feeling truly seen and being able to say the things that I struggle to say, but I find the words for like, the other day, I was thinking about how, after one of my podcast episodes, I felt like a vulnerability hangover. And it was weird, because I'm always like, I always nothing different about that episode than all the others. But for some reason, I feel like maybe I said something for myself, like more strongly than I usually did. And I was like, you know, why? Why do I feel like that? And it's this idea that I'm growing so much, and, you know, sometimes our perspectives change, but like, if we're too afraid to say something, because we might change our mind will see nothing ever, you know, so yeah. And to be able to say, I actually actually have changed my mind about this, you know, yeah, to not feel afraid. Oh, well, there you go. Haha. You know, people Yeah, and it's like, actually, I've done the work, and I've gone through things, and I've experienced life. And now actually, I feel like this, there's, again, no shame in saying stuff like that. Exactly. And having your children bear witness to that, like, could enable them to, you know, maybe not have such a go with their, with their pride and being able to do the same. So, yeah, so that is like, my number one priority for for whatever my kids can see or think of me is just to see the wholeness of, of what I am. Yeah, I really love that. Baby's really, really lovely. I really love that. So that's the thing, like, I feel like, it's sort of related to times when you'd go to funerals for older relatives, and you discover that they did this, that and the other and, like, Ah, I wish I'd have known that. So I could have asked them about it, you know, saying like, I don't know, I, in my eye, again, challenging the cultural norms, this is what it was at the time, you know, my parents, they would hide, you know, certain conversations from us, and probably for good reason, you know, your child, you don't need to know things, but then that still happens a lot in my life now. And I think that's because of the way my parents were raised, to keep things hidden, you know, children are seen and not heard all this sort of, like I said before, about, you know, you don't talk about your political choices. I could not like my dad and I have the best talk about politics. You know, I could not imagine going through my life not having a sounding board for talking about politics, you know, and for my children to, you know, to grow up understanding about the world, you know, there's things that you do want to talk to them about, you know, and not just hideaway or don't talk about that, you know, again, I respect you know, people were living in different times you know, I'm not I'm not bragging that that was the way it was then. But yeah, and I think that's a really powerful thing to say that you want your children to to really see you and to know you as a person and I think that's that's awesome. Yeah. Thank you Do you have anything else that you want to share that maybe you haven't brought up or anything else that's on your mind? You want to know it's just this has been a very juicy conversation. It's been great. It's just so it's so incredible to me. I mean, that I'm able to connect with you on the other side of the world you know, and like we have, we have a lot in common tell you when in a short time, like I feel like we have more in common than we've even uncovered. Just how important this all is. And I think that, you know, something that I saw today, and it makes me think about, right, I'm just thinking about it now. And I'll just say it, I'm, I, I'm in a mastermind with Amber Lee strim. She's a, she's a business coach. And she's really incredible. And she, she said something, she posted something in one of the captions, and it was like, talking about how she put on this, this in person events, when she was going through a time in her business, and, you know, and she was brave enough to do it. And then she did it year after year, and it grew and grew. But at the end, she was saying that, like, even if you're not in the place to, you know, put on inventory, you don't have the resources to XYZ, like, we have such a powerful stage, like every post, every podcast episode, every thing you create has such a world of opportunity attached to it and like could really be the thing that like, helps, and changes and does whatever we just did, and like. And even if it's a needle at a time, it's like the compounding effects of this work is incredible. I mean, it's just like, I've been at this for a year. And you know, I can say that it's been a very slow burn, but at the same time, like the, the consistency and being like this tapped into myself, and the work I'm putting out and being able to make these connections has, you know, I can feel like, oh, you know, look at the numbers and think one thing, but then if I really pull myself up and look back and understand like the body of work, and the connections and the discoveries and the transformations I've gone through, it's it's really incredible. So I just want to thank you for being being a stand for this as well. And like creating the work that you do and connecting with all the incredible artists, I'm honored to be a part of your show. Oh, thank you. That's so kind of you to say and yeah, likewise, yeah. I don't know, I just, I feel like I feel the same way. We're all collectively contributing, contributing to a movement, I feel like things are really happening. And this is the time we'll look back on this time and go, you know, this was a significant period of our lives and, you know, society, Western society, in generals life, and we're a part of it, I feel like, you know, and I think that's the thing, because, perhaps previously, because of the work, the way the world was set up, there wasn't the internet or whatever, when someone did something, it was a big deal. Now, because we've all collectively got this access to, you know, the internet, we can do podcasts, we can do blogs, all this stuff, because there are so many people doing it. The reach might not be as broad. But that's the difference. There are so many people doing it now. You know, I feel like, you know, there's momentum in this and I just got goose bumps. If I get like, we are a ship, we are the ship, like you know, a thing isn't a thing until it's a thing. And then enough people I was just listening to. I think he's so cool. His name is Jeff Goins. He's a writer, and he has a podcast called he creator. And he was just talking about how you know, a thing isn't even a thing until someone comes up with it. And it's really weird at first because it's not an a thing. And then enough people believe it, and all of a sudden, that's the norm. And then, you know, and it's like, it's so true. And that's what, you know, all of these norms that we're combating through, like pulling the veil off, you know, that we are not separate from that we are we are doing the work on the ground floor of that. And I think it's so important. It's so incredible. And also, you know, even though it definitely is a, you know, the big pond a bunch, a little fish type of thing in some way, you know, leaning into who we truly are and like own the more we own ourselves, the more powerful we can be for whoever does find us and all of a sudden binge, like, oh my gosh, you were the vehicle that I needed this to come through, like kids. We've all been there where we hear something, and we know that we've heard that same sentiment a bajillion times before but there was something about the way this person said it in this moment that just was the thing you needed and unlocked you and you can never tell we know when that's going to happen but also there probably are no accidents right so yeah. I think you know, this divine timing like when you're ready for this message like yeah, I could tell you a million examples of Napoleon but you know, so many examples of you know, you're saying So you hear this and then one time you hear it, it's might not be delivered any differently, but it sticks in your right eye for you. Exactly. It's hilarious isn't it thank you so much for coming on Bianca. It just has been a really lovely conversation. I've just loved it so much. Thank you. And good luck with the rest of your endeavors doing your podcast and and yeah, just keep doing it. Because it's so good. So thank you so much, and I would be so honored and cannot wait to have you have you as a guest on my show as well. Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

John Anderson Australian musician and composer S1 Ep08 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts To mark Father's Day here in the Southern Hemisphere I share 3 special episodes where I chat to 3 creative dads to get their take on things, how they continue to make music while being hands on dads. In this first episode I chat to singer, songwriter, producer and multi instrumentalist John Anderson. John is from Mt Gambier Sth Australia and is a father of one. We chat about balancing creating music with working full time and parenting, where he finds the time to record these days and how dads experience guilt. Listen to Johns various music incarnations - First Thrown , Trev and Alemjo Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ John's music used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from artists and creative mothers sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mum and continue to make art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. Today I released three special episodes to mark Father's Day here in the southern hemisphere. I chat to three dads to get their take on things and how they continue to create well being hands on debt. In this first episode, I chat to singer songwriter, producer and multi instrumentalist John Anderson. John is from Mount Gambier South Australia and is a father of one. We chat about balancing creating music with working full time. And being a dad, where he finds the time to record these days, and how dads experience guilt. I hope you enjoy. Welcome to the podcast. John, it's great to have you on this special episode. Thanks very much, Al. So I've got to tell you, everyone, first up Johnny's my brother in law. So some things we might say, might go over people's heads with that. So why don't you tell us about your music, how long you've been playing? How you got into it, all the different instruments that you play and that sort of stuff? Right? Well, I guess I started playing probably. I think back when I was maybe in year, seven or eight possibly. I had my oldest brother's acoustic guitar, I believe that he had left home when he moved out. And I was just basically playing sort of one string just intending thing. And just yeah, just moving my fingers along the fretboard and finding notes. I thought, oh, yeah, I could probably get into this. So yeah, I was mucking around with that. And he had a bass guitar, too, I believe, which I sort of tried to play as well, which was basically just a bigger version of a guitar. So I had a bit of a muck around with that. But yeah, that's, I suppose the very first music thing I ever really played was probably the guitar and up to this time still playing it, obviously. But yeah, and then I guess it was probably after that would have been a drum machine I think I got which was some kind of small little Yamaha thing that I'll look at did the job. But yeah, I was just just had like little electronic pads that I just had the drumsticks and I'll just be hitting on there and making little beats. So yeah, I guess that's my first introduction to drums. As the years went on, I think it was about year 10 I saved up and got my first electric guitar. And just basically self taught myself and which was very basic stuff at the time. Some of it still is to this day. Yeah, so I think get from there. It just grew and yeah, that's pretty much where it all began for me, I guess. Yeah. Yep. So you've never had any formal lessons and you never know. So and this would have been before the days of YouTube where you could actually watch someone teach us so you truly are self taught? Yes, yes. Yes. Now is probably as I got older and into the teens, I guess you'd have you know much over at a friend's house or something. And the thing at that period of time was obviously Nirvana tunes and but the thing I remember most would have been Smoke on the Water by deep purple which I think most I know a lot of rock or metal heads would know how to play that so so that was but that but back then that was what it was, it was just you either see music videos and sort of watch that evening you can't really see what they were if you got a really keen oil good or you could see what they're playing on the guitar but it was more more or less you know if you could read music you'd you'd be reading notes and whatnot, but for me it was just sitting around with friends and playing his horn you going on What have you done then I'll give that a go and they smoke on the water. High School in the 90s for you. Nirvana, Pearl Jam, what were the other things that you were listening to? influenced you back then. Back then I was a rap head and a metal head. So I more I think from recollection. Well, going back in time a bit, I suppose the first a lot of music was from my oldest brother who was into a lot of various stuff, it was off the top of my head, it was like violent femmes the cramps. I can't even remember some of the other bands, but there was just all lucky like midnight oil and just a real big range. And then my, my other brother, he was quite strong into rap music, so they'd be public enemy and NWA. Or there might have been a bit of Run DMC in there too, I believe. So there was a lot of rap music. So I had a lot of interesting sort of, I guess was like independent. I don't know what you'd call a lot of that stuff independent sort of rock, pop rock or you just really experimental stuff, but then there was the hip hop. So I was into that. And then probably early teens, I think one of my friends got me into sort of heavy metal so it was a pain Tierra I'm sure nothing other pains now pain tear. And I as it was funny because as a as a joke, there's there's a band Napalm Death, which are still alive to this day. But one of my friends actually had a tape of which one of his friends gave him it was. I mean, for people that don't know Napalm Death, there were like a grindcore band that back in the early days just played crazy, fast music that might even last five to 10 seconds. That's how long the songs were so. So we listen to that as more or less a joke within you'll listen to this crazy stuff. So But over time, I sort of started actually think this is pretty cool. Actually, he was going against the grain. It's not normal, a normal strong structure. And then I had some other friends that really got into it. And so that was interesting. But it was a more or less more pan tear and sort of those heavy bands back then. But also Yeah, the grunge scene. So say obviously Nirvana and Pearl Jam Soundgarden. All the good ones. Yeah, so it was there was a bit of a mixture there. But yeah, now the year, I was definitely part of the grunge listening crew so. So with your music, I know that you've done quite a lot of different genres, for you to get into these different sort of styles of music, because it just, you're influenced by what other people listening to what you heard, you never really had any sort of idea that you were going to play a particular kind of music, you would just open to any sort of influence, I suppose. Yeah, it was, I think, yeah, just whatever struck a chord. And I guess for the majority of my stuff, probably lies in the realm of sort of extreme or hardcore or something like that, which I've just always been drawn to that sort of abrasive style, I guess. And it's, yeah, I'm sort of, I guess there's an expansion lot. There's different elements to a lot of that music. But yeah, it's just, it's just what sort of grabbed me so you know, from playing sort of heavy, heavy rock. You know, it's, it's just got a, notice a certain feel to it, that I've that I've always been, I've always felt sort of connected to so I'll play that. And then yeah, obviously, there's more extreme stuff, like you might be death metal, or black metal or grindcore, and all that sort of that sort of stuff. And, and that's just, it's just this sort of slight sort of therapy in a way, I guess. But it's just something that I just found that I could see myself doing and then sort of went down that avenue and and then yeah, like obviously, as times gone along, there's been other sort of genres, as we call them. That might be a bit more sort of a bit more lighter, you know, not quite as heavy and like, for the last, maybe the last five to 10 years has been like I've got into a lot of instrumental rock metal bands and stuff that have a lot of layering which, probably to this day, I don't think I can create a song without lowering, lowering to hell. So but you In a lot of that's just like this sort of wall of sound that, that I'm drawn to with just sometimes it's probably a bit too busy but, but just hear like so many different instruments coming together as one and it just max this out and it just makes this terrific sound that just pricks the ears up and you get right into you're dead. Tell us about your little person, a little person. She's Ruby, she's turning five soon. And she at the moment is singing the house down. And from what my, my wife Emma, your sister said she's. And I think you've said this too, that she's got a very mature, powerful voice and I know it's powerful, that's for sure. Yeah, wow. Really, but, but even this morning, I think we were just chilling out lying on the bed and just had an hour, she just built it out this chain and just, you know, my ears almost exploded. But it was good. It was good. But yeah, she's just just so enthusiastic with singing and obviously being around Emma. And an M is teaching her you know, not I guess not forcing it, but just sort of giving a little hints along the way of how to project it and all that sort of stuff. And yeah, she's, she's, she loves so much that loss of musical for a really it's just everything could be just create everything could be broken down into a song really so. So she's now she loves singing and yes, she's just Just a happy little girl that goes around singing and loves loves being a kid, I suppose. So I know personally, Ruby's had access to instruments and like the keyboard and things like that, from a young age was that important for you that you wanted to share that love and that experience of music with her? Yeah, I think so. Because it's, it's a part of me and Emma's life, I guess it's so he's been pretty strong with this. So I thought, you know, without pushing it too much, but that, you know, rubes you know, would have you know, say like, I've got a like a little Yamaha keyboard that just gets around the house. And she's she's played that and you know, even like a little ukulele and but yeah, like without saying you know, you've just have a go at this play this just just sort of have it in front and see what happens. And yeah, like, over the years, he's played some tunes even one that I actually recorded think she's I could almost use that and like an intro for a song or something. But yeah, now she's, I think I think it's good. Even if parents aren't into music as much, I think if they can give kids that option to just try it. Because it's just such a awesome thing in my eyes anyway. To have music in your life, so yeah, and if kids get into it, they get into if they don't, they don't, but IRIB seems to be she seems to enjoy it. Definitely the singing part. So yeah, I think it's I think it's pretty important. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you've done a lot of writing and recording yourself over the years, has it been something that you've gone into? It's like, you find that you said it's so important in your life, it's something that you go to, to, you know, work through, you know, challenging times in your life, it's sort of the therapy like you, you use that word. So it's been there for you all reckon yet, I think it's always regardless if it's been a therapy, or just, you know, jumping in the room and recording something that's just, you know, for a vibe or a feeling you've got I think it's it's definitely a form of therapy and yeah, so sometimes it might be just jumping in there, and, and just seeing what I can do and other times, like, you know, really, you know, feel in some of the day and you just think, you know, sort of out and I'd like if it's if you haven't, you know, a bit of a bit of an ordinary day or something like that it's sometimes it's good just to just go in the room and and see what syrup pours out. And yeah, and if it works out, just hit record and see how it goes. And so, yeah, I'd say that some, not maybe probably maybe half and half a lot of it's got more out there, what would you call it more? There was more emotion probably put into it. And whereas others are just more of a sort of a creative work, but yeah, for sure. I think it's definitely a therapy. Which, definitely, sometimes with a heavy music, I think not that it's has to be evil or anything like that. But I think as aggression goes and letting out frustration that I think sometimes that can be good, especially if you've got yourself a drum kit doesn't have to be great. But jumping on the drumkit and thrashing the living heck out of it can be quite, quite good. Yeah, soothing, you know, you can just lash out and then just say, Ah, that's better. So, you know, the better if you've recorded it, yes. How do you go these days when, as a father, you work full time? How do you find the time to actually get in there? And like you said, if you just want to get something down, or you have an idea, like, how do you manage that you sort of in your day to day, I guess was you know, it's very tough. I think before before rubes came along, it was you know, you could you just basically had the freedom to at night. You like for instance, or remember, I could be in my recording room. And it could be a as you might be aware of this, it could be hours have passed, and Emma might knock on the door and come in and say Do you realize what the time is, and I'd be looking at my phone or something going on. So time just goes and it's to me, it's good. Because when you're being creative, I think you need that. You need that space and time. Even if you're even if you're not doing anything, which in some people's eyes might be just you're just bludgeoned to sing, you know, you know, just playing a tune on a guitar, but you're, you're constantly thinking and, you know, thinking of stuff, whereas now, since Ruby has come along, it's sort of almost like scheduled time, which don't get me wrong, you can still be creative, but it's it's like you've got this vise on. It's sort of like this, you've got this timeframe like, right, you know, I've got maybe an hour tonight to, to work on something. And you know, you could spend 55 minutes of that trying to work it out. And then you've got it. Ah, well, look, time's up. But yeah, I guess it's definitely, time has been a lot more restricted. But, but you can still make it work. It's just, it's just a bit bit harder to sort of relax and have that vast freedom that you used to have, but it's like, you can't just get there when the moment takes you. You can't just go oh, I'm gonna go do that. Yeah, well, there has to wait till seven o'clock tonight. Yeah, yeah. Hold that thought after bedtime. Yeah, she just like, how do you go then in the house now with rubes to like the sound like the noise out? How do you manage that? Like, is that hot? Well, I guess the majority of my recording that I do now is pretty much at night time. So really, when she's asleep? That's probably when I do the majority of it occasionally. I might do some in the say in the daytime afternoon, or whatever. And I'd have I'd have the door shut behind me and if I'm playing guitar or something, I'm constantly looking over my shoulder and I'll hear a knock or something and I'm thinking I've got five more seconds please just wait wait but then you know if I get interrupted you know, that's just life but it can be hard but do I think now know that I'm probably strictly a night recorder now so so yeah, things just have to wait. I mean, I can still play guitar or you can think of things during the day and you might you've got like a little recorder next to you can think of something not that I'm a singer but I'll try to sing something and have an idea and then I might put it to you to use later on, but yeah, it's just, it's definitely a nighttime thing for me now. So So we've seen obviously, with going back to the time restrictions, you're sort of, you know, if you're working what not, you can't be up all hours, like when you're in your younger days and things you can bounce back in the morning. So it's you still got to get your beauty sleep. So. So yeah, that takes takes a little bit of the hours out of the day, but you just got to work with what you got. So yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's all about negotiation. And when your time is not your own, it's like the end. Gotta get in there somewhere. So do you do collaborations with anyone at the moment? Yes, I've got an old friend though. I went to school with Steve, we've got a little music project called early LIDAR. It was a it was originally a three piece we had a our other friend Edie who he was missing in action for a lot of years. And he was a hard man to track down but but only the last three, I think last three years, we have been sort of messaging each other over messenger or text and saying we want to get back into it and, and interesting, like with COVID. And sort of traveling and whatnot. We worked out a a little system that he could record guitar parts and his vocals and he sends them to me through Dropbox. And then I put them onto my recording desk, and I programmed drums to order and mix it. And I haven't mastered it yet, but I'll get there one day, but mix it all up. And yeah, and we've made two albums since 2018. I think it was and you're in the process of doing a third one. So you were pretty pumped with that. So yeah, that's been a little bit of a project. But well, I suppose also there's a lamb Joe which you'd be familiar with. Other people about Allison and John LM Joe meditation, music and music relaxation and it's fantastic you did just everything and then Emma and I just rocked up and did some lady does over the nine it was a team effort team effort. So what instruments did you play on that just for the familiar that was only did guitar and keyboard for a couple of the songs I believe and I think that was was about it? I think there might have been some drum program now I can't really remember do not have layering in all layering is no reverb. Oh, I'm a junkie for reverb. I'm trying to cut back on my reverb these days actually. Yeah, you can't you'll be in trouble. But yeah, it was so that's that's what I did and then you ladies put your your lovely vocals to it and a bit of a flourish with the maybe the tambourine a little bit of percussion singing bowls to a blouse Yeah. That was a fantastic project which is about to turn six yes yes wow crazy Steve that you do your you collab with your album? Is a dad as well. Yes, yes. Yes. So he's facing those same challenges when when he's gonna get back to you and get it down. And he's so really apart from yourself and Emma when she's, you know, when she's got small times to do music. I don't know too many other people, personally that, you know, fathers others that doing music that Steve? Yeah, he's, he's a sort of a, I guess a fairly new dad too. But yeah, he's, he's definitely he's a, he's a boss. And he's so he works a lot of hours every week and just to find the time from working in family life, and then you went, he's got a moment, he'll jot something down and, you know, send it to me. And then you are not happy with that. I'll send you something maybe tomorrow night, depending on how the night goes. And that's what I normally say the interest will say to him, you know, the call, I'm gonna try to work on that tonight. But fingers crossed if we have a good night or a bad night. So we've rubes if she wants to go to bed or doesn't want to go to bed or something or, or something. crops up, but yeah, that's, that's, that's how he works too. And just finding the time and the heads just can be can be tricky. But you can do, you can just get the time in somewhere and make it happen. And sure might be you'd be more drawn out. But if you, you keep the fires going or you work, you'll get your end product somewhere down the lawn. So that's the thing, you've always got an intention that you want to you want to do what you're getting back to it, it's just that slotting anywhere so when you're doing that work for a living, how do you sort of come up with those songs? Pretty much improv. It's sort of, I guess, it's playing something quite mellow for a start. And it just, I guess, finding a train that's I guess, sort of resonates with relaxation, and all this, all those wonderful things that come with it, and then you're just finding the guitar on top of that, that fits in, I guess, with the most was what we call the root note, whatever you want to call it. And yeah, just I guess just saying what fits with what and then as you be aware of the songs, they almost seem like they're sort of two halves put together. So the first first is normally that you know, the same sort of change and then second half the songs completely might go completely somewhere different but but yeah, it's just all I guess, improv feel. And just see what comes out. And don't get me wrong. There's been a lot of scrap papers I'll be playing now. But now I'll get something that I think so not too bad and and record it picks it up and so you guys just keep keep building on it and seeing what what happens so you touched on the in John, that there's not too many other musicians in your circle that are parents. So have you sort of found it hard then to, I guess, have a role model or some sort of guide of how you're supposed to do this? How you fit this into your life and keep creating more you're such a hands on parent. Yeah, it's yeah, it's I suppose it's a tricky one because I can't I can't really Yeah, I haven't really rolled off anyone you know, apart from you might see some YouTube clips of say, Dave Grohl or something with his kids. And not that I'm comparing myself to grow here but but, you know, all these big musicians and you can watch a clip of them in the studio when their kids are coming in saying, Hey, I thought we're gonna go swimming or something. Daddy just got to do this guitar beat and then I'll be right there and like, now I can't really you haven't really got any anything to really base it on part from just my own experiences and just over time realizing what works for me and yeah, and then just just going with that and then obviously, as time goes on, and rose gets older, it'd be probably a bit easier because she's been more independent. And you know, it's, you might be on whatever more time to then expand on recording, but just the whole process, but for now, it's just chipping away at night time. On st. So I want to touch on the topic of identity. Obviously, I've been speaking to a lot of moms about this, but I wanted to delve into the debt side of things. You see, when I talk to moms, it's easy because they fail Oh, yeah, straightaway. Because it's like, a massive big deal today to be who you are doing whatever you like in the world. And then all of a sudden, you're a mom, it's like, you only exist for this child, like you physically exist for the child. But I guess, for a dad, who, I'm not being rude, you're being offensive and all that might take the second role now overloads for mothers of their mothers different, definitely different for the mothers and the fathers. Even the father does a lot. It's just, I suppose, you know, organically and physically and all that stuff. It's so much different for the mother. It's just just the way it is. But we my eyes anyway. But yeah, I think, yeah, I think for fathers, it does change, but nowhere near as much. As a mother, I don't think going through all that sort of identity, like of, you know, keeping your sort of individual identity. And sort of just trying to separate sort of that. motherhood, fatherhood to your individual, I think it's, it's, it can get lost in the waters can get a bit murky, but, but it's definitely very important to have those two separate, because, I mean, you just, you, you think you just run yourself silly and you end you lose that individual identity. And then I don't know, maybe a lot of the passion that you might have for music could sort of wither away a little bit. Because you just feel like that you've you've got to put family as a priority. And then this is so exhausting. And draining that you might, you might lose that identity a bit. And it's easy to just go there. One day, I'll get there. But I think if you can find the time to even if it's a little bit just to separate them and to keep that individuality is very cool. Another topic that I talked to the mums a lot on this show is about mum guilt, and I do it in the air quality is hashtag Mom, do you find as a dev that you've experienced anything like that? doing the things you want to do with to keep your because it is so important to you to keep doing it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'd have to say there is there is some some guilt sometimes like, say, for instance, if you know, I've talked to me about you know, like, spinning when allocating some time, in an afternoon or something, just to work on some music of something, and everything's perfectly fine. And that but, you know, being in the room, you know, I've got my headphones on playing guitar, I do I have that thing in the back of my head that's burning a bit saying or maybe I really should be out, there's, you know, it's the daytime, it should be with my family, what am I, you know, being a bit selfish being here. But then, you know, if you've got people around you that are, you know, being honest with you, and insane, you know, that's, that's, it's fine, what you're doing, you know, and I think you've got to realistically look at yourself outside of yourself and think, yeah, it's actually this isn't too bad. Like, um, you know, obviously, if you lock yourself away from everyone, you know, it might be a different story. But if you, you know, if you're only spending a bit of time here and there, and trying to you know, just keep that creative spark going, like, I think that's a good thing. You know, all parties have said it, go ahead and do it. And so, yeah, there is one live inside there isn't there is a little bit of guilt. But yeah, it's I think that's just a human human response, really. So. You'd have to be maybe crazy to think yeah, you're not. Yeah, you know, being guilt free, but yeah, just it's just a tribe and we'll we'll see We're talking before about when you're creating when you're in the room creating and you get the little knock on the door. Ruby's quite aware of what Dad's doing in there with his music. Big Daddy. Oh, so let's drop everything attenuate needs. But she's quiet. She knows what you're doing. Does she try and get involved with music? Do you I think I'll probably, I don't think we'll have actually been recording anything she has bought, there's been some lovely little moments where I think I've got a couple of videos of where I'll be playing guitar or even not even playing guitar and Ruby will say, habit daddy ever you play guitar and I'll dance or sing like, okay, so I'll put the guitar into the app and just strike out anything and she just be dancing around like a free spirit. And yeah, that's that's quite nice to know. Which is, which is a good thing to go back to kids with music. If, if kids love music come in. It's even if it's just a an improv thing, whatever, just to play some music together. Doesn't matter if there's mistakes or whatever you're playing. If you're playing in tune or not. I think it's it's a really great thing to just just have a little thing where you're just playing music and dancing and singing and carrying on and it's just such a warm vibe you get from it. That that's really important. But yeah, there's been a couple of instances where she might say, you know, Daddy, you should record me doing this or doing that today. We could do that. Walk around, but I don't think there's been any recording as of yet. Anyway. I think the day will come and the day will be coming. So I'm looking forward to that. Because yeah, it'd be it'd be really great to have a as a part of something I'll create down the track on it. Awesome. Awesome. So good. Yeah. And she's actually influenced your work as well. Is there's a song that you made when just after she was born? Yeah, actually, yeah. The the day she was born, actually. I think I recorded a little number on my electric acoustic. And I think I snuck in before midnight on the day. So yeah, I think we're just because Emma was in hospital, and I went home for the night and go back this occasion. So I think I just think of just whatever come to my covenant, my fingers and my ears and the ability to tune in it's, I think I've called it welcome my daughter, I believe so. Yeah. And I guess yeah, she's, I suppose, probably with the music. I don't know if it's, she's or father would change the way I've done music, but definitely thinking of topics or issues. If I do write lyrics for a song or something, I guess that's probably where it might have changed because of a father would no say just genuinely getting older and your views might change and definitely your thoughts changing the way you look at the world changes as you get older. So yes, she's probably changing in that aspect of thinking about the world. So is there anything in particular you're working on at the moment, John? I think just, I think the cogs are still in motion. It's just, I think the stuff I'm doing with Steve early later, I think we're still working on a few songs of that here and there when we got the time. But apart from that, it's just when I've got the times to jump into the studio as a call and see if I can be a bit creative, but it's just a it's just a matter of keeping the machine greased and kick the kick the ball rolling and say what the future has in store. Thank you so much, John. It's been a pleasure chatting with you on this special episode. All the best with the music and I'm sure I'll see you soon. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Welcome along late. Thanks so much for being part of this special episode. No worries. Thanks for having me, Allison, of how to listen to a couple of the podcasts so far. And it's sounding really good. So yeah, it's great to be a part of this. Oh, great. Thank you. All right. So for those people who aren't familiar with your music, and what you've been up to Jordan, give us a rundown of how you got into music, what the, the style is, and what you what you're up to at the moment as well. Yeah, for sure. So I got into electronic music, been a DJ. And I also studied audio engineering at SAE in, in Melbourne. So I was, you know, recording bands and stuff like that in Melbourne. And then also DJing on the side. And, and when I sort of, at the end of my finishing up doing DJing, I just wanted to sort of make music and, and at that sort of stage, I sort of got into the electronic music field. And, and yeah, started sort of producing tracks and making music and just my own sort of own sort of style sort of thing. So yeah, that's how it all sort of started out. I was I started out as a punk DJ, like I was at nightclubs in Melbourne, playing, playing punk rock music, and, and, yeah, I used to record bands and stuff and do sound engineering for a fair few bands on the circuit as well. So when I do, you know, between their sets, I used to DJ at the clubs, and then they come on afterwards another mix them while up on stage playing. And that's, you know, that's my early roots has always been punk rock. So, you know, I grew up listening to that, you know, no effects and, and all those sort of punk punk bands, you leave sort of Green Day stuff and living and and all that. And that was the scene I grew up in. And, yeah, that's sort of sort of how my music career sort of started out really, it was, like come from, I've never been really musical as such, but I've always had a fairly good ear for music. So it was more to do with audio engineering and stuff like that. So yeah, but when I first started out as an audio engineer, it was a long time ago. And we were, you know, Pro Tools just sort of started the, the digital era was just coming out. Well, I was I was back when it was, we were recording off of like tape and stuff like that will cut and bits and pieces. So it was a long time ago. And then it was just sort of for me into that digital era. So yeah, it was a it was good time. And that's Yeah, so my early, early parts are all punk rock. That's, you know, that's where I sort of started the whole music sort of thing with me. So when you say, pre electronic sort of equipment, does that mean you were DJing? With proper records and that kind of stuff? Back in the day? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. That's, that's how, you know, we, as DJs when I started, like with the punk rock stuff, it was all on CD and stuff, it had nothing really to do with with mixing as such, you would just drop any music after the song had finished. So you just had to have a really good ear to what would come on after that track it was so it was really just whatever you wanted to play. But then when I that's what sort of got me into electronic music was that it all had to do with like BPM and actually mixing the song and actually making songs really mash together really well without sort of, you know, missing a beat. That's what you couldn't do that with punk rock music, you know, you're just playing songs after songs and just trying to keep the crowd entertained. As much as you want to do that with electronic music, you've got to be a good mixer. And starting off, too, with turntables, like I had a, like a reasonable time on turntables. But I wouldn't say that my main DJing was with turntables that was sort of like, turned over onto that the CD sort of format, and we were sort of mixing off of CDs and CD decks, the early early CD decks and stuff like that, but we were, you know, you had to be a but you had to be a good DJ, to, to be able to get by back then these days. You don't have to do anything, you can just push a button and it'll sync everything up for you. And, you know, the kids love it. So that's a lot. It's, it's a lot different. It's a lot different these days. So, yeah, yeah, for sure. I think a lot of people now just press play and especially the young kids doing it now they don't seem to be actually mixing live as they're going, Oh, it's 100% I you know, my club times in in Adelaide. You know, I sort of that's where I sort of finished my my DJing career is was I had a a like a residency at the casino where we go and play there. Uh, you know, every every Wednesday night, and it was it was really good vibe and everything like that, but we used to go out a lot. And afterwards and that and to other clubs and you go there and you just go up and have a look and see what they're doing. And you would see people push and play on, like a mix on on, you know, like a Spotify mix or something like that. And that was what they were doing. And I'm like, what, like, what are you doing? Are you actually doing anything up here or, you know, and a lot of did it lost its vibe, because the people, they actually, they don't really know how to mix at all, they just have got a sink on their on their mixer. And, and it pretty much well, you know, everything comes together and you get you can't get by if you go to a club, and you sit back and you listen to music. And you either know if it's a shit DJ, or a really good DJ. And that's, that's these days, you can go out and you put it to work and you'll you'll know straight away if it's good, it's good. It's a real skill then to as a DJ to raise your audience to get those people back on the dance floor. You've got to know your stuff. Yeah, that's 100% Like, yeah, definitely, if a DJ doesn't know what he's playing, or, you know, gets up there and, and hasn't got the right tools or, or, or know how to work the decks or anything like that they can fail just so easily. So yeah, it's just it takes it takes a big skill to, to do it. And yeah, a lot, a lot of guys out there are good at it are really good at it. And you don't actually seem or I don't know that many DJs that are right into producing though, even though like most of them are just you know, they just do their weekend DJs and stuff like that. So DJ gigs, so you know, you you don't like the music you're making now you're doing that all from your house, and you're working with people all around the world, which is really exciting. Yeah, 100% the music I make now is basically a collection of music that I made probably around about 2016. And I'm still making music now. I just a lot of the stuff that I made, I put a lot of time and effort into it. So I seem to like go back and revisit a lot of the older stuff that I made. And just keep working on on that. Yeah, so now i i Just jump online, I've got a master over in America that I use. And he's put me in touch with a fair few people to collaborate with singers, the Charlotte law crews from the UK and n a fair few other artists that I that I just work with. And just mainly for vocals. Yeah. And it's just really fun. It's just fun to sort of have a bit of a hobby and a passion for music and still be able to, you know, put something out there at the end of the day and have a bit of fun with it. So yeah, that's my sort of main thing is just as long as you're having fun with music, that's the main thing for me. Absolutely. You've got a young family. Tell us about your your children over there in Victoria. So I've got a young boy named Fletcher. He is coming up to three years old. And I've got a little girl Lexie and she's around one and a half our Lexus she is so yeah, we give her we just call it Lexi. So she loves that. So, yeah. keeping you busy at that age, the two of them run around. Yeah, they sure they sure. Are they sure are they they they cause plenty of headaches but they both really good kids and yeah, we love them to death. Yeah, so how do you go then finding time to to get stuck into your music and create when you've got little people? Do you sort of try and do it at night or weekends? How do you make it work? This is basically my time now it's like minute they're the kids go to bed at sort of, you know, seven o'clock, eight o'clock. As I come up here I've got my own sort of studio up in what I call the schoolhouse, it's like an old converted schoolhouse. So it's just got like, a bed for friends to stay in. And it's just got all my computer equipment and stuff like that up here. So I just sort of come up here and do my thing. You know, it's it definitely has been challenging, I must admit, like coming from you know, just having a partner and being able to do music and that whenever you wanted to to then only doing it at night time you've got to try and really, you know focus and yeah, try and make the time that you've got, you know, make it work. Yeah, yeah, make the most of those limited little slots liberal hours. So you also work you also run a farm I believe so. You're you're pretty much burning the candle at both ends. Really? Yeah, yeah. So we've got a three and a half 1000 acre farm over here in Kassadin. And me and my dad work here on the farm. And we've got like, roughly set like we're in about 350 head of cattle, and so maybe closer to 400 and, and two and a half 1000 sheep here on our farm, so, so it's extremely busy here during the weekdays plus, up in New South Wales, our my brother, my older brother, he has his farm up there, which is around about 13,000 acres. So we used to split our time a lot in between the properties and work both sides of it, but now we tend to sort of stay one end and the other end of my dad sort of floats in between the property. So yeah, we're pretty flat out over here all the time. So, yeah, absolutely. And it will be challenging then to try and, you know, with the kids, you wouldn't actually be able to sort of float between the two properties that easily when you've got your Yeah, that's right. Yeah. 100% it's made it made a lot different. Now having that having a family and stuff like that, it just changes things a lot. You know, so but you know, that's just the part of having a family I guess you've got to make you got to make changes yourself as well. clincher is actually in one of your music videos recently. So I do I do a lot of my own music videos. And I've been doing video for a long time, probably just as long as I've been doing music. So that's one thing I've sort of thought about doing is like, just just do it, just make the video yourself have a bit of fun with it and make it yourself. And they they just love it. They they love being a part of anything. And then when you go back like, you know, if you put if you put TV on and YouTube or tractors on, then you know he gets really grumpy. So that so when he gets on YouTube, and then he sees himself on there, he thinks that's the best thing in the world. Like he thinks it's the funniest thing ever. And he will watch it repetitively all day. And Lexi, well, she just loves it, so she can't get enough of watching him or mommy on there. So they love it. So the I'm going to try and incorporate that the kids into as many of the music videos as I can just have a bit of fun with it. Like I was thinking about sort of getting something, you know, professionally done up and I'm just like, what, what's the hell, you know, like, just just have a bit of fun with it and do it yourself. It's always like, always think that if you have a crack at it yourself and it comes out real raw, it sometimes makes it give it a more feel to it, then then something that's over produced or anything like that, like, you know, you'll give your fuel footage to somebody else. And they'll wrap their hands all over it and, and make it glossy and everything but it doesn't seem as raw as as sometimes. stuff. So, yeah, we just had had a lot of fun making the video for DJ bitch. And yeah, we filmed it on our property. And yeah, we always had this idea to do it. But it was just really an idea. And let's let's just do it. And we had this footage. And it was it had just been sitting there and I said to laser I said we've got to finish it with like half it was shot. And I just sort of started putting it together and it just sort of slotted in really well. And yeah, before too long, I think, you know, the film clip I think was up to about 6000 views at last I looked it was it was quite a shock actually, but it's a good fun. It's a good fun video clip. So, you know, it was just a bit of fun and the kids love it. And like I said they just can't get enough of watching themselves. So it's really good. It is a great video and yeah, I didn't realize that you made that yourself. Congratulations because that is awesome. Yeah, now I do all the all the video on myself and then I get back to the computer here and and produce it all myself. So yeah, it's just fun. Yeah. So you used a drone in that video is that you do that yourself? Yeah, I got my I got my own drone. And so the drone shoots in full 1080 H HD and I use the GoPro as well to get mostly all the shots on the film clip because pretty much a GoPro these days, I just got some of the best, you know, the best pixels as well. They just come out amazing clear and you can just sort of go through and edit up your videos afterwards. So yeah, drone stuff. I've had a drone for a number of years now and yeah, I love love flying them and just yeah, really fun. You kids obviously know that you do your music is that it's something that you you love sharing with the kids, it's important for you to involve them in, in what you're doing. Yeah, for sure my kids really love music. We got a thing at our house that we just love to put on music, like around tea time, or Saturday mornings and stuff like that, it's always music going on at our place. And we just yeah, we just try and involve them as much as we can, you know, whether it's listening to my music or, or listening to other people's music, and they love it, they love dancing, and they just love being kids and, and as adults, mainly, so we both love it as well. So, yeah, that just we just make sure that they've got heaps of arounds, and you know, they're not too scared to have a bit of fun and dance around the living room. Here in my studio, I've actually got a toy toy room here for when so like, on a Saturday, if I'm, if I want to do music or anything like that, I bring the kids up here with me, and they've got their own toy room, and they'll, they'll play toys up here and, you know, push around the boats and the cars and stuff while I'm up here, you know, playing on the computer. So yeah, it's a really sort of fun environment for him. And we don't I definitely don't just run away from the whole family to go and do music. It's just, it's just, you know, Dad's up here, the schoolhouse, and the kids will come up here and, and, you know, they'll ride their bikes around in here and have a bit of fun as well. So yeah, definitely, they're very much included you seen do you find now have with the kids in your life, that the way that you write your music has changed at all? Yeah, like the, like you see the world a bit differently? Maybe anything like that? Yeah, 100%, I'd say, because my music is, you know, electronic and different. I'm just sort of really trying to create a vibe, as much for like, the, the kids and stuff, it definitely hasn't really changed my sort of style as much. Yeah, the only thing that that really has changed is that just not being able to have that flexibility time to you know, just just go and you will just have more time without having the kids and stuff like that you would just end up having a lot more time up yet up your sleeve to sit down and really concentrate on something, and you just win now doing music, you sorta have got to be in the right mindset, or else you just don't get it down. And if you not, if it just doesn't flow, it, you're wasting your time. So yeah, I will, I'll come up and play around with tracks like that. And it's just not working. It's just definitely it's not working. So you just stop and you'll come back another time, but it's it having children and music, you just got to really make time for your passion, I think. And yes, to having having children and stuff like that. It's, it's yeah, it's a great thing. And it's been awesome, but there's definitely challenges involved. And I think if I had children a lot, like, like, I'm 40 Now, if I had them when I was younger, I don't think I would have coped as well. That's one thing I don't really want. I'm glad I had children when I was older. I'm pretty, like I think I'm very selfish myself sometimes, like not now. But I was would have been when I was younger, a lot more selfish or and wanted to sort of achieve more. Now I've got that mindset that I've just don't don't really care anymore. Like I just want to have fun. So but um, but now, you know, been a bit older and stuff like that. I'm just a lot more chilled and just don't really care. And just like I said, I think for myself, if I just have music as a as a passion and a hobby, it breaks down those walls. It's just like, you know, if you achieve something, it's great, but you're not really focused on you've got it, ah, I've got to make the charts or I've got to sell music or anything like that. If people want to listen to it. That's fantastic. And it's awesome. And if you wanted to get shows, that's great. But if you really focused on that and it doesn't happen, it just breaks your heart all the time. And you just end up bearing yourself I think Do you just want to I just want to put stuff out there that I'm really proud of. And, you know, when I released my last album, I had had a lot of messages of people saying, oh my god, that song was just amazing or that was so great. And that's what it comes down to. For me, it's like, just those moments where people say to that, so I think it's really big. Shout out to people that, you know, tell that artists that you really liked their music, it makes a difference to people like it makes people be more productive. And they want to actually, you know, they want to keep pursuing their dreams. And I think today's age too, like with artists, were were artists and musicians and everything that's gone through the whole COVID thing. You know, they need you more than ever right now. People really need to stand up and say, hey, you know what? I'm gonna buy that CD. I love that tune. Keep doing what you're doing. And you know, stay positive because it only takes one person to say, oh, you know your musics crap. And you know, you suck, all of a sudden, that person just shuts down and then they don't want to do it anymore. So you know, as long as you know, since I've been doing music, I haven't even had one person say you, you suck or your shit. It's just like, everything in the music scene, I think is so positive. But we're just going through such a shit time with COVID that no guy out there's work and the poor old industry, music is industry is suffering. The venue's are dying up, they need you more than ever, right now. People, people like myself, anyone out there who's putting music together still is they need you. So, you know, the people out there listening and buying records, you know, they're awesome. That's what we, we do it for. So, you know, yeah. That's so well said. Yeah, that's the thing. And I think big Yeah, because we can't say, the audience face to face because we can't make those, you know, personal connections, it is important for people, if, you know, if you like someone's music, send them a message. And, you know, it's just that little, that little bit of connection, it's just enough to brighten someone up and, and keep them going. And like you said, it's, it's that spark that gets them going. So, yeah, and it's nothing is a stew it's not, I like appreciate so many different styles of music, like I listened to, you know, so much different styles. And even if it's not the general genre that you listen to, you know, just just let them know that that piece of music that that was awesome, you did an awesome job on that, you know, your vocal was fantastic on that. Just just let them know, I think it's like, that's the most positive thing I think with the with the music scene, the artists get behind other artists, even if you got a small majority of fans out there and you know, I don't consider myself having many fans at all but the small group that have that I have around me that they definitely don't shy away with saying hey, that's that tunes. Awesome, great job that's that's a sweet tune, keep getting maybe keep you know, doing that sort of style. It's a love it. So that's and that's what gives me a bit of momentum and stuff and just just to have a bit of fun with it too. So yeah, but it's definitely a struggle out there. And if you know if someone was doing this job at the moment full time and and you know looking for those gigs every weekend I really feel for those people at the moment I you know, it breaks my heart to to see how the music industry is going to recover from this because I know a lot of artists I know that the artists Charlotte lock the, the girl that featured on my album, she she ended up going back to work at a big company and I murder message not long ago and I said you know, how's how's the music going? And she was like, there's no time you know, I've got to get back to work and there's no no gigs. So and she you know, I couldn't never think this girl not seeing again because her voice is so amazing. And it just broke my heart to hear that you know this girl can't get any more gigs and she's had to go back to the office and start working again and slaving away to the man you know you mentioned briefly before Lacey your wife She must be very supportive of of what you're doing and helping you a lot. She's very supportive. She that she loves that she loves being involved. She's you know, probably my biggest fan I every track that I do or take part in in any small way. She's probably the first person who gets it is on that track. So I give it to her and and she'll listen and I'll say what do you think of this? And you know, what do you think of this and she'll be like, oh, yeah, I love it. I love it. I love this bit and you So that Yeah, cuz we sort of feed off each other a lot. And yeah, it's great to have somebody supportive that by your side or that, you know, is prepared to sit up all night while you're at three o'clock in the morning, you know, bouncing ideas off somebody overseas about some track that's getting mastered at you know, some ungodly hour or you know me waking up in the middle of night con I've got such a great idea for a video clip. So, she Yeah, she's really great and very supportive and yeah, yeah, I love her a lot. Yeah, and she got got a little bit of a go in the video as well. The music video. Yeah, she was up there dancing with flat chi and it was quite funny. She said I'll go up and dance with which I said yeah, get up there and have a dad so yeah, it was good. Mid say I loved the little little jacket that he had on too. Yeah, he's gonna wear that northern all the film clips we've decided he loves his he loves that jacket. He calls it his DJ check jacket so he really thinks it's really cool so yeah what if he got on at the moment or anything coming up that you want to share? I've got one track that I'm working on at the moment. I've just I've got another girl that's just doing some vocals for me for this track. It's, it's called creatures. It's one you've heard lately. It's like I really wanted to make something that was sort of like really on that that preset vibe that really pumped up sort of idea and just it didn't really have to mean anything. It was just sort of a like really pumped up track. Yeah, that's what I'm working on at the moment. So I just sort of had that mastered but let's come back and and why can't I just need something else to sort of give it a bit of an edge so I thought I'll try it with a female vocals. I'm just waiting for those vocals to come back and I'll put in the track and yeah, see how that turns out let me lose a happy move. I don't know what to do. Everything about my situation is a winner loser. I know the feeling of people when they don't do any bad. I made a choice to ignore my movie Jason bash. What is exact feeling when I listen to a couple of podcasts before? And he the people what they were saying about you know, and you know that they have music? And then that was on the backburner? Because they've got so much time, it's what happens. I think when you have a family, it's like so much gets put on the backburner though, doesn't it? It's like, it's incredible, that, you know, you've got all this, all this passion and all this art that you want to get out there and want to push out into the world. And all of a sudden, you can't because you're locked down with the, with your family and doing your doing the stuff that's, that's, that's important to them. And then all of a sudden, you can't you can't get it out. And then it's sort of built up, it really is built up, especially if they're, if they're, if it's a person that's putting out stuff constantly, and has a family and all of a sudden that sort of just kind of it's it's hard it's just about expressing yourself, I think and as long as people can keep getting it out there. That's the main thing. And you know, I imagine for women, especially having kids, it's so important to nurture those kids and you seem to be putting everything into the children I know from seeing it firsthand, through my wife that she puts everything into our kids and, and your wonder like now I've you know, she's focused on going back to studying more at nursing and, and, and that's something that she's passionate about and she loves so we make time to fit her you know, things that she needs to do to into into her life things but it's such a thing is like you know, when you when if you don't have an outlet somewhere or a passion and you've got nowhere to you know to do it, it builds up and you know, probably can end up being the falling down of your marriage or anything like that because you just got no outlet and you feel like you're locked up with the children and just having this dull life that you you know, that just ends up crashing around around you. If it doesn't have you don't have an outlet Thanks so much for coming on today. Like it's been great to chat and all the best with whatever you've got coming up soon. I can't wait to hear some new tracks from me. No worries. Thanks, Alison. I really appreciate coming on the podcast and yeah, I wish you all the success for it. It's sounds fantastic so far. And yet, let's hope you keep going with it in the future and it keeps coming out and bringing positive messages with it. Thanks for coming on today. Adam. It's a pleasure to have you join on this very special episode. I am stoked. It's I think it's important to to open up these conversations. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. So can you tell us about your connection with music, how you got into playing and all the amazing things that you've done over the years? All right, well, how long have we got? Look, I first got into music fully, I guess in in Mount Gambier when I was a student at at Grant High School. And that kind of led on to coming up to Adelaide to to study jazz and as a saxophonist, and from that point, I I kind of I don't know, I just had a setback and and let the you know, let the music guide where I was going and I've done all kinds of things in my life since then, musically from spending three and a half years on cruise ships. playing in the orchestra is on ships to you know, touring with with bands around around the country and around the world and playing in make millions of recordings and as I guess a freelance saxophonist, but also a lot of writing as well heaps of writing for small ensembles and larger ensembles. Currently, I'm I'm writing for the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra and have done multiple times in the last few years. I've written major works for New Zealand Symphony Orchestra and orchestra Wellington as well. I've traveled the world with my multi instrumental looping, improvised show. Yeah, I didn't know like heaps, heaps and heaps and heaps of stuff. And this. This stuff happened. I mean, you know, a lot of it happened before I was a father. But there's still yeah, there's still a lot of it that still exists. Just it just it just looks a little different now. Yeah, for sure. So you said multi instrumentalist? How many instruments can you play? Well, I own a lot more than I can play. But I mean, I guess the woodwinds are my first go to so you know, all of the saxophones clarinet, flute. Other flutes like Native American flute and Bansuri. But then, you know, piano has always been a big part of my, my sort of creativity. And the tools for writing sort of come from the piano. I play guitar, bass, drums and percussion. Yeah, and other bits and pieces. We eat instruments from around the world. But yeah, I guess you know, I call myself a multi instrumentalist, but you know, I'm I'm a saxophone player first. So you just you have a passion for just like trying out new things and just seeing what happens and finding new ways to do things. Yeah, I do I do because I mean you know musics music and the, you know, the, the fundamentals of music remain no matter what instrument you play. And so like I, you know, I play drums. Like, I play the saxophone, I play, you know, the nose flute, in the same way that I was, I would play the bass, it's just, you know, it's the same music but just a different different technique and a different, a different voice that you're using, but inside it's still the same the same music Let's go. And you went to New Zealand recently I saw on your Instagram. I did. And that was pretty lucky. I had been working on a on a saxophone concerto that was that was written for me that I had collaborated with as well in the composition process. And yeah, so I've been working on it for a long time. And I got up to a point where it was was ready, and I was ready to go over and work with this orchestra and, you know, do the performance and recording as well. And then, you know, some, some, some COVID business was starting to drop around the place. And I luckily, I got over, you know, before anything happened. And while I was over there, the Victorian outbreak sort of happened. And I luckily changed my flights earlier to go through Auckland and Adelaide rather than Melbourne. If I'd gone through Melbourne, I would have yet I would have been stuck. But yeah, I got back a day before locked down in South Australia. So I'm very lucky, I got it done. Because I think, you know, I mean, I'm just so used to cancellations. Now the last 18 months has just been just one project lost after another. And I've got used to that kind of dynamic that it creates creatively. But if this if this show was canceled, I would have been pretty gutted. It's like an emotional roller coaster isn't it really is really tough. And, you know, the deeper we get into this, you know, like I'm understanding more and more about my, my creative process and what, what I need and what keeps me buoyant. And a lot of a lot of these sorts of situations that are occurring around us are, in a lot of ways, they're kind of they're they're sort of drowning my my normally buoyant kind of attitudes and and my direction that I normally kind of take so and that's just purely because we can't, you know, we can't dream money we can dream. That's it, we can't fully turn those dreams into, into a reality without all of this uncertainty is attached to it. So it's yeah, it's very difficult. Yeah, for sure. It's like, you want to have ideas and goals and dreams, but you're sort of like, well, what's the point? Because it's not going to happen anyway, like, you feel that it's crushed before? Yeah, I'm trying, I'm trying not to get to that point of like, what's the point? Because, because the you know, in so many ways, the point is, it's not in the delivery, it's in the creation. And I hear, but it's hard, though, it's hard. Because, you know, you've taken, you know, you take away one fundamental part of the, of the project, which is the delivery. And it's very hard to stay focused. Without letting that that idea of, of uncertainty creep in, you know, it does definitely affect affect the creation effect ever every level of it. Really. Yeah, absolutely. Have you been able to do much like work online with your music or you found other ways to be able to create? Yeah, look back in the, like, you know, the first sort of wave, I guess you could call it I did a few online performances, which went really, really well. Like, I was surprised actually, that the community that that kind of, you know, opted in was super supportive. And, you know, I could I could see the comment thread just going crazy while I was performing and it was just, it was just really nice. I'm, I'm planning on doing another couple of those in the in the coming weeks as well. Just like basically for my my friends over in, you know, New South Wales and Victoria and just to give them something to consume. But aside from that, I've been really lucky that I've had some I've had some composition projects that have really kept me kept me going with with the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra and, and also, some other, you know, work with, with a small ensemble, the Ben Todd quartet, with Ben Todd, who's a drummer, Paul white and James Marlowe and that those two projects have really kind of kept me kept me going. Yeah, but it's hard. So you mentioned a little bit before, before you had two kids, what did you music life look like at that stage? Where you're doing it full time? Oh, yeah, it's there. You know, there's, there's no doubt that once you have kids, the, you know, that changes, you know, and for me, I, I kind of made a, made a decision before we had our first daughter, that my life was going to change. Okay, and so, what what I had in the past will not, I will never have that again. And that, that led to me really thinking about priorities and this at this moment in my life, like what is important, and it really like, I mean, it was, it was just so clear that the most important part of my life right now is is, is my family and creating those, those irreversibly positive relationships with my, with my children and with my partner as well. And so, yeah, everything changed. I was doing so much stuff, creatively, and I was definitely absolutely in control of my day of my week of my hour, there was a point before we had kids, where, you know, there was quite a while where I would on a Sunday night, look at my week, and I printed out these calendars with you know, from from 5am to midnight, basically. And I would, I would schedule everything that was happening in the week, and I would just sit there for an hour or so on a Sunday night and, and just put it all in including, like hangtime including breaks, including just like okay, so on Thursday, I'm doing nothing. And then and I'll just let it happen and so you know, my go to the art gallery, I might go for a swim or whatever, you know, Thursday's Friday, but then all of the other days I would like totally just go like right this is best case scenario. And then you know, I'd you know, on Monday night I would I would look at it and go see what's happening Tuesday and go like no let's call or I could change this change that so it was a very, very productive incredibly and then when you have children you like if you're if you're a committed parent if you are completely into the next few years being you know, in a state of creative upheaval, if you commit to that then you know it it changes it changes everything you know, you can't it's not possible to to have those those sorts of positive relationships without making sacrifices and you know, and I hope I'm not sounding negative here like because I I'm very positive about and I'm very happy about the choices I make because will have made and continue to make because I have had you know I've had discussions with with people who have gone the other way where they have followed the path of their career and their and their music or their art and it's it's caused the you know, the downfall of their family and that's that's that's long term. Okay, that's that's an absolute long term thing that that everybody regrets I'm sure and so so yeah, it's it's I don't know I've just gone I'm going around in so many circles here in different different directions. But you know what I'm saying like you've just got to make those sacrifices for the good of your of your of your village you know of that that beautiful thing that we call family or let's see yeah, so you had you had a conscious think about it I suppose of what what your life was gonna look like and made a decision for yourself. But can I if I can add to that Yeah. We also with with my partner Giorgio like we had really fantastic conversations about my career and about my art and about what I need, because I my needs are very clear like I need to be creating I need to be doing something musically and and the importance of that and so you know, the conversation just even having a conversation about the the importance of art of music and being creative in my life. actually gave me more room to to step away from that for a while. And know that when the time was right, I can, I can commit to it again, I can just go straight back into it. So and, and it was funny because in the first, in her first year of life, I wrote basically 90 minutes of orchestral music for this concert, and I have no memory of writing it. Like, I don't know how I did it, but we made it work. And there was a bunch of projects that happened in that, you know, in those first kind of couple of years, because it's like, we had these conversations, we were totally open about, what, you know, what I wanted to do, but, but most importantly, what I was capable of first, firstly, as a, as a, as a musician, as an artist, but then secondly, as a father, you know, like, so it's a constant balance between the two. And, you know, sure, it tips out of balance, sometimes, sometimes I'm way too busy. And, you know, I'm relying too much on, on family, and, you know, George's parents, and, you know, to kind of, you know, give us a bit of help, but there, but then other times, I find that man, I haven't picked up my horn in two weeks, you know, yeah, but it's just constantly constantly kind of in flux. bar out communication is key, all because, you know, like, one, kind of, you know, 30 minute conversation can make the next six months, like, so much easier, because you're, you're honest about your needs, and you're honest about about the capabilities, that you have to be able to kind of get to the finish line with these with the projects, but, but at the same time, it's like, you start that dialogue around, around how it's going to affect the family, because, because that's the big change. Now, it's not just about me, you know, like, I, you know, with my partner, we, you know, she used to love it when I went away when I did, because they said a lot of international touring a lot, a lot of touring around the place, and she'd be like, awesome, I've got some time to myself, it's fantastic. And I used to love being away as well, it's just so fun, so fantastic. And, but then all of a sudden, it's just like, it's no longer about, like me, it's like, it's like it's you, me and us all together, you know, and, and if that's the, this, the, if that's central to your to every conversation, then you actually end up getting a better result, like everyone gets a better result from from being open and, and communicative and clear with with your needs. And also being realistic. I love doing this stuff. Because, you know, we, we need to talk, we need to talk about this stuff. Like I feel every time I talk about my my parenting style and how it aligns with my, with my art, I just, I feel good, I feel really positive. And I feel you know, and at times where, you know, at the moment, there's a lot of negativity surrounding our lives. And, you know, I think I think just just talking this stuff through reminds, reminds me that, that, you know, this too shall pass. And, and I will get to a point where I'll get a tour, you know, somewhere and I'll I will say to my four year old or their, you know, your might be six at that point, Hey, you want to come on the road with me for a couple of weeks, you know, like, I know, that's going to happen, you know, I know that's going to happen. But yeah. And that's because it's because of the sort of the choices I'm making now. And and waiting, letting letting life be be the thing that that that steers me, rather than my creativity, if you know what I mean. It's like you're, in a way you're in a sort of a holding pattern, got all this amazing stuff, you know, you've got to look forward to because of how you've set, set your life up and set things up with your family. So it's really positive when you look forward and it's salutely and it's a bit of a slow burn. You know, you can't expect it to happen straightaway. And I mean, sometimes I expect I expect things to happen far too soon. And you know, I've just got to kind of To try and try and sort of, you know, lose some of that disappointment, knowing that it will, and knowing that, you know, it will be easier because I mean, we've got a four year old and a one year old at the moment. And so we're, we're in it at the moment, we're in it deep. And, you know, and it's no, no word of a lie that the these last, you know, four years of our lives, it's the hardest hardest we've ever had to deal with. You know, you're just, you're just totally forced to your absolute capacity and then some and but then you get out to the other side, and just be like, Well, that was intense. That was intense. And, and then, yeah, like, it just, it's, there's nothing like, these first few years to, to really kind of remind you what it's like to be a human, or what it takes to be human. Yeah. And also, I think it gives you a sense of how much you're actually capable of that you probably didn't realize, because I've been forced to these extremes before. That's actually like, you can discover a lot of stuff about yourself that you didn't know. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But then on the other end of the spectrum, like I did not know, that I was capable of, of having so much love for someone else. Yeah. You know, I like the love I like I'm tearing up here. love I have for my children, is it? I don't know anything else like it? Or I actually know nothing else like it. And, you know, when when I walk in the door, you know, the half an hour ago, and I hear my one year old going? Daddy data, data, and it just like just crawling as fast as you can to get to me? Like, it's just like, far out like, what? What, what show have I ever done? That is as good as that. You know? It's the best and I think, yeah, I I hope that my kids realize that. I mean, I know they do. Yeah, I don't have to tell them that I love them so much. You know? Because I mean, I do every moment I can, but they I know they can feel it. Yeah, your actions, your behaviors are showing that that? Yeah, and I'm sure, I'm sure that that the the art that I'm creating at the moment is is, is is in some way guided by by that love? Hmm, that's something I'm interested to that I'd like to chat with people about, have you found that, that change in your life, that being a parent, and that all the changes in the intensities that go with it? How does that How has that come out in your work, you find it reflected in what you're creating? I think I've written probably the most beautiful music that I could write through thinking about my, my daughters. One of them was when my, my eldest she look, we would have been about maybe six months old, and just screaming at three o'clock in the morning, holding her just just absolutely the at the end of my, you know, of what I could give her and just sitting at the piano and just started playing these arpeggios. And she just stopped. And the you know, I thought, Oh, this is cool. And so I just kept playing and kept sort of doing this, these these, you know, very simple arpeggios and, and yeah, everything changed. And then I like I remembered it once he was asleep, and I just sat down at like, what at four o'clock in the morning, whatever it is and wrote out this piece of music and, and to this day, it's like it comes to her and it calms me and and then last year I wrote her a saxophone concerto that was it was inspired by COVID and how the COVID pandemic was was developing and then halfway through and in the second movement. I just it was when when, you know our youngest was born. And and yeah, it's I think it's the Yeah, it's up there with absolutely some of the most beautiful music I've made just because I I had her in my mind and I had her absolute kind of beauty and and it just it just came through in the notes and like music that never would have existed without without these experiences and I think I think the the beauty comes out of like The pain and suffering as well that you go through having having children and, and, and that loss of that loss of your old life because it is, you know, I miss it. I'm not gonna lie, I miss it so much. It's like a mourning process you have to go go through the lonely because and I mean if you if someone says no I don't miss my old life I you know, this is this is this defines me now it's just like, that's, that's crap, I don't believe that for one second for one second and you know what it's, I'm allowed to miss it. Because I miss it so much because it was so awesome. You know, but because it was so awesome that has turned me into a different person. And so it's like, well, you know, all of those experiences still exist, they exist in who I am right now. And all of those experiences still exist in in, in the stories that I'm going to tell my, my kids about, you know, the things that I used to do. And but then, you know, I don't I'm not saying that I'm going to be a hermit and just a father for the rest of my life, I know that things are going to change, things are going to get easier. And I'm going to get back on the road, I'm going to get back into doing more stuff and more full time. But at the moment, I've made that choice I've made that deal to be to be there to be present. What does your days look like? Now? I mean, obviously, you're quite busy with a one year old. But when do you find the time to be able to do what you need to do with your music? Well, so we've, we've found an amazing childcare center that both actually both my my kids go to now because Georgia, my partner, she went back to work three weeks ago, three days a week. So that's, that's been amazing. So the eldest goes three days a week, and the one year old, she goes twice a week. So I've effectively got two to three days of creative time now. It's excellent. And I have no idea how to use it. Like I'm telling you I'm at the moment like I'm, I've just been thrusted all of this time. And also because you know, it's a pretty, it's a pretty crazy world out there at the moment with COVID. And we were just committing to me doing some more travel, I'd meant to be playing three weeks at the Sydney Opera House in September, even though there hasn't been kind of publicly canceled. So and I was meant to be in Darwin this week for a festival. And of course, they've just coming out of lockdown. And so I've effectively got about six weeks of free time now as well, which has made our lives so much easier as parents because I wasn't going to be away for four or five weeks. Which I was really anxious about, just because of the implications of the home life, you know, and how Georgia could manage me we've got amazing supports from her, her parents. My folks still live in that Gambia so they can't, they can't help out in a physical sense. Yeah, so but but with this time that I've got, I'm in a real creative funk, hey, like, I've got all these projects that I want to, to embark on. I've been I've been constantly kind of dreaming stuff and writing stuff down. But to actually get to that next level, I'm finding it quite difficult. And I think there's a few things that are that are, like impacting my normal kind of man, one my normal direction or my normal flow. And first and foremost, it's, it's that idea of what's the point? Yeah, are they actually going to happen? Like, you know, but I have to keep reminding myself that it's not, you know, the view is worth the climb. And so it's that whole kind of like, okay, the, the actual process is what, what I get the most amount of energy out of, you know, but then also, I mean, this is this is another can of worms, social media, like I'm, I'm absolutely 100% addicted to social media. And as as we all are, you know if anyone's got Facebook or Instagram or Twitter on their phone, you're addicted immediately because those algorithms are so great. They suck you in. So and also sort of not seeking out bad news. But just like, looking at the news websites just to see what what bad things happened next, you know what I mean. And that's had a profound effect on my, on my outlook on life, like I'm, at my core, I'm an incredibly positive and optimistic person. And I'm just feeling now that, you know, the, the, the weight of the world is getting a bit too much for me. And, and so I'm actually I've made the decision this morning, I'm going to have a bit of a break from social media, just because I've just found myself in some situations online, that have been quite negative, and have sort of kept me up at night. And I don't need that. So I think if I can, you've got a one year old to keep you up at night. You don't need anything else came. Yeah. I know. And so, yeah, it's, it's a great, it's a great time to be having this discussion. Because, you know, the, the fact of the matter is that, you know, I've got all this time, and I'm being super creative. But actually, the reality is, like, I've got all this time, and I have no freaking idea how to use it. And that's the reality. And that's, that's something that we need to all kind of embrace. I think. You can't be super creative all the time. Like, this might be like a healing time that you just need for yourself, you know, to, I mean, a lot of people I think some people like hate lock downs and hate whatever it is, but I know some people I've spoken to that are enjoying being locked away, because the world is so proud. And just being with the people they love and with the family that they need around them. I know that it's putting a spin on a negative, but, you know, cocooning time for you, and then you know, the butterfly will come out, you know, sometimes, Oh, absolutely. And I do track that I was forced into a, you know, physical and creative locked down last year was pretty, like, the timing was pretty amazing. Because, because we were about to have a kid, our second kid, and it was like, Okay, we're home. So what else are we going to do? We are going to, we're going to be here as a quartet. Like, who can go and deep was it was, it was fantastic. And I think, for me, it's yeah, I'm still having trouble getting out of that zone. Because I loved it. Like, I, I loved the fact that we were together so much. And that I'd made that choice four years ago, when we know when we had our first that it's like, this is this is a moment in time that I cannot get back. And any opportunity I can take to connect is going to bear fruit in the future. Yeah, and I mean, I've got some, there's some role models in my life that have that have been guiding me as well, like really strong, strong men and strong fathers that have really helped me through making these decisions as well. You know, and, yeah, and so the deeper you get into that mode of deep connection, and parenting, the harder it is to get out of it as well. And I think that's a part of it, as well, like i Yes, I've been incredibly creative in this time, and these last four years. But I have no idea how I think, I think, yeah, necessity, I think deadlines are the only things that have actually kept me focused. I didn't have a deadline. I wouldn't be doing anything. I actually did write the other day. So I'm on Instagram, someone said that deadlines are really good for musicians, because they make you get off your acid. diester Absolutely, absolutely. And I feel like, I feel like I need to get back into that kind of idea. Because I mean, for me, you know, so many of my bands that I would start were like, basically, we would just be hanging out, you know, mates hanging out talking about music, had this idea for a band, and then all of a sudden we book a gig and get a t shirt designed. And before we've even written a note so it's like you know, like that's yeah, let's Let's book the gig. Let's get the vibe. This is what it's gonna be like and like, bam, here it is. And yeah, then go. Okay, so what is it going to be? Who's playing well? I think I need a bit more than added my life nothing like a reduced stress to get you going. mentioned that you've had some really good role models around you positive and negative, I suppose you'd say things that you you think, Oh, actually, I don't want to do that. Yeah, there's lessons everywhere. You know, I think that where where we go so well, is through communication. And, you know, some some interactions I've had with other fathers in the past have been quite insightful just in the just in the way that they describe their relationships, you know, with their partners, you know, like, just using that, that idea of, you know, are you lucky, your missus have, you know, let you out of the house, that sort of thing. And so it's like, man, if you're gonna use that kind of language with me, I doubt you've had, you've had a really kind of, you know, deep conversation about your needs both both of their needs. And so, you know, I, I've kind of learnt from friends that have had children before me that, that communication is key to being a great parent, so communication with your other half, because sometimes it'll be, you know, it feels like weeks, we're living in the same house, but sometimes it feels like weeks that we've actually connected, like, within Georgia, it's like, full on and, you know, and that's, that's a scary, that's a scary cycle that can be, that can be created, you know, to the point where you, you feel like, you don't know each other anymore. And like, and so communication is just so important, you know, communicating when things are going well, as well. Or not just when things are going badly, you know, and when things are difficult, it's like let's, let's celebrate these these moments of, of Claire clarity and, and enjoying our life or new life together, you know? Yeah, so I've definitely, I've definitely taken that from from my friends. You know, James Brown, who's a guitarist, one of my best friends here. Yeah. Him and his partner and their family. They've they've been a big influence, as has Ross McHenry, who's another fantastic musician, incredibly prolific creator, with three kids, I don't know how he does incredible, but he's been a massive kind of beacon for me. But also John Sophos, who's a composer in New South, in New South Wales, in New Zealand, who's my, one of my favorite people in the world, and, you know, he's, he's got adult children now. And, you know, he, he came and stayed with us, you know, when our, when our eldest was about kind of one and a half ish. And we would just sort of sit up the frontman her and just chat and just spend time together. And, and he said to me, that I, that he could see himself in me in the decisions that he made when he was a young parent, to put his his career and creativity on the back burner for a while and really hook in with the kid. He's now so close with his kids that are adults, you know, and, and he said that the stuff that you do now is it's fertilizer. You know, it's, it is lifelong. It's a lifelong connection. And, and you've only got one chance to create that connection. And, and he just said, Look, I'm so happy with what you're doing. Because he's, he's reaping the benefits of it now, with these amazing relationships with these incredible human beings. I know both of his, his his Well, kids so well, as well. And they're amazing humans, you know. And so I look at him and just think, right, it might be hard now, but I know that what's happening what's to come is pretty, pretty magnificent. That's it, you're sowing the seeds to reap in the field. And I truly believe in that, that idea of we only get one chance at this, you know, I've got so many chances to write a new song. I've got so many chances to, to start a new band to you know, A book a tour, whatever, you know, whatever creative thing, I've got so many chances, and if one chance disappears, then there'll be another one. But right now, this is my only chance to be to be that that kind of person that I truly want to be as a father that, that, you know, absolutely. Connected Absolutely. Kind of engaged. Kind of human around them. And, and you know, silly as well, you got to be silly. Get down on the floor got to get down on the floor with them and play. Yes, that's just so important. Yeah. And again, going back to the social media thing, I think I, I'm using it as a bit of a kind of advice, I think. And it's starting to creep into my, my relationship with my kids as well, like, I'll be talking with them, but I'll be looking at FACP. At the same time, I'm like, Whoa, what's going on? I need to stop this wall. So I don't I don't drink anymore. I stopped drinking five years ago. This is before we even started kind of talking about really having kids and while we've been talking about them, but actually, you know, trying, which I'm happy about. And so I don't have to have like alcohol to fall back on. which so many of us do, like and I can see the power of alcohol as well to have a when you just want to have a nice glass of wine at the end of the day. You know, alcohol works? Absolutely. So, so I don't have that. And so is that why you cut it out? Because you could see your alignment team? Yeah, absolutely. And it's hard. It's been the hardest thing to maintain. But also, I'm feeling really good about it. Yeah. Good. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, right now, what is it? It's it's one one o'clock in the afternoon and I'm I'm actually drinking a beer right now. It's a It's so I'm still drinking but it's just non alcoholic beer and yeah. Thanks, great. Do rejoice, and celebrate when when Georgia, you know, has a swig on the tequila bottle. It's like it's pretty cool. It's just like, oh, yeah, you needed that you needed that I did want to ask you about your music around the children, particularly your older daughter. Do you play your instruments around her? It's like she, she's into your music. Here's how it goes. Okay, I sit down at the piano. I play one note, Daddy, stop. I sing a note. No, Daddy, stop. Yeah, it's been. It's going well, yeah. But she's decided that she likes being in the same room as me when I'm practicing the saxophone. Which I get, I've usually I've had to go to I've got it. I'm lucky enough to have a studio space as well. And so I'll go to the studio to practice and just because I know if I start playing, she'll run at me and yell at me. And, and I'm cool with that, because I'm not forcing it on her. It's like, she is such a strong willed little girl. That that's just you know, it's a fight. I'm not, I'm not prepared to to embark on because it might just end up with her hating music. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want to do that. I mean, she she'll never hate music. He loves music. She we listen to music all the time. She loves David Bowie. She loves like, she just loves music, which is fantastic. She wants to play the violin. And that's that came out of nowhere. I think just because we've been watching orchestral things and listening to orchestral things. Yeah, but so she'll sit with me when I practice. And so now, when I practice the saxophone with her. I'm purposely doing really simple stuff. I'm playing major scales. I'm playing scales in thirds. I'm doing things that aren't going to scare her away. So when she starts to play As a musical instrument, she's already going to know these sounds. And she's already going to know. Like, how to practice. Yeah, and and funnily enough, yeah, like it was, it was amazing like after, you know, a week or so she, you know, she came in with me a few times. She was just sort of sitting in the bath and singing, and she started singing this melody in thirds. She was making up like, unicorn and the fairy was things I think the singing in theaters and I'm like, Darling, are you singing what i've what I was practicing. She's like, Yeah. And I just thought to myself, well, there it is, like, it's, yeah, our youngest one. On the other hand, we can I can, I can pick up a spoon, and then drop it on the ground. And she will just go like, Oh, that sounds awesome. And she'll dance around. And she like, she is the absolute opposite. She like you put on any kind of music and she just explodes right there can pull up this and I, you know, and I play, you know, I play the anything and she loses it. She goes crazy. When I put the blender on in the morning. She thinks it's the greatest sound in the world. And she's just sitting there dancing to the funny. Yep, she's just looking for any any opportunity just to bust out and move. She's just pieces hanging work? Absolutely. Oh, look, I know that those qualities that that, you know, the oldest has are only going to be kind of her, or they are going to be her superpowers when she's older. You know, it'd be so easy for us to to destroy that part of her. You know, but we want we're embracing it. Because, you know, the world needs more powerful women and she's she's going to take on the world. And I I wish anyone luck that stands in her way because they will not win. But that's that's what I love about her as well as as challenging as it is. And as hard as it is to deal with sometimes it's actually like, pretty exciting. That she's gonna be that kind of person. Absolutely. Thank you can't wait to see can't wait to see what she doesn't care. She changes the world. Hope she's my manager actually, that'd be good. My manager, my bouncer. Yeah, personal security guy. Oh, that's awesome. is important for you to maintain who you are as a person outside of your role as a parent? Absolutely. Because, you know, as much as, as much as we say that, you know, we're the same person. It's, we're not, you know, and, and I really do believe that the identity is is incredibly important. And, you know, but but you need to know what, what that is, as well. And so, you know, what, what is my identity? And like, what, what do I identify with? And you know, what makes me me? And I've, yeah, there's a few things that make me me. One of them is, is reading, I read a lot. And I still read a lot. And I the one thing that I've kept from my, my life, pre kids is reading. And so every night I've read, it might be two pages. It might be two lines, it might be 100. I don't think I've, I mean, there might be some nights where I'm just absolutely smashed, and I just need to go to sleep. But generally, I'll read. So that's, you know, that's a big thing about my identity that I've kept. And that's and that's a silent part of my identity as well. But it's such an important part of me and a part of my life. And if I wasn't reading i i wouldn't be a very happy person. And so So yeah, that that is the one thing that I've been, I've kept control of my identity as a musician. I don't think that changes because my identity isn't just about me, my identity is actually in other people. Now that might be Come out, it's kind of strange, but you know, in the eyes of, of, of my public and the people that enjoy my music, they don't see me as a father, they see me as out of page the bearded musician. So in many ways my identity still exists. Okay, so that side of it, my public identity still exists. And if I, if I'm, if I'm trying to kind of, you know, simmer away at projects, and which I have been doing a bit, it's been more than simmering, it's been boiling sometimes, but, you know, if my output remains, then my identity in the public eye is the same. It just keeps growing, I guess. But yeah, but personally, it's quite simple. For me in it, and it's, and it's reading, it's listening to music as well. It's a big part of my journey, my kind of journey of being a better person is exploring other other music and letting the music in, rather than just leaving the music out. And, and that's something that I can do with my children as well. And I can share that. And that's, in many ways, kind of really helping our relationship as well, because they're growing through music. And, but then, but then, you know, you kind of have to ask yourself, you know, who am I and, I mean, who, who I was yesterday is different to who I am today. And who I'll be tomorrow, and that's just, that's totally, that's up to me, and it's up to my, my mindset at the time. Because if you think that your, your identity is fixed, then then you're missing out on so many other air like factors of your life that you don't know, existed. And so, I, that idea of identity is is kind of attached to the idea of self, you know, what is self what is, you know, it's just, I don't know, I feel like my my identity is who I am right now. And, and who I am right now, is someone that's, that's in a bit of a creative funk. And I'm okay with that. Because that's who I am right now. You can accept and, yeah, except that except that that's what it is. And if I, if I accept then if I was to be like, Uh huh, I should be this person, I should be this, you know, multi award winning bla bla bla bla bla, that's, that means nothing. Who I am right now. It's who I am right now. And so that, to me is preserving my identity because I'm accepting my identity. For it, we're going deep. Oh, I love it. I kind of hear I need these conversations as well like because, you know, I do I do talk with friends about this stuff, you know, and it always makes me feel better at the end. So it's nice that we're pressing record think the big takeaway from this for if there's any, any fathers listening even mothers as well, is like communication is just key. And, and talking about the things that you really want to do. And then finding a way together to be able to do them. You know, like, just being open. And communicating has just, yeah, it's just made it made made potentially sticky situations. really manageable. You know, and as I said, before, we've got so much help from from family that yeah, we're so lucky. We're very lucky. Very, very, very lucky. I'm eternally grateful for for the people that help us and help me actually it's mostly about me being able to realize not some of my artistic kind of, you know, dreams if you must. Yeah. So yeah, it takes it takes a village

Alicia Lis Verso Australian singer, songwriter and musician S1 Ep01 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Welcome to my new podcast. I am thrilled to have you here! My first guest is Alicia Lis is a Melbourne based singer, songwriter & guitarist, high school teacher, and a mum of 2 boys. We chat about how she manages the different 'compartments' in her life, how important support is from others and the importance of modelling hard work to her children. Alicia Soundcloud / Youtube / Instagram Podcast instagram / website Alicia's music used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. got a hold of me and my guest today is Alicia verso who goes by the stage name Alyssa Liz. She is a Melbourne based singer, songwriter, and guitarist. Welcome to the podcast, Alicia. Thank you so much, Alison. It's a pleasure to be here part of your podcast and your very first one too. Yeah, so exciting. This is this is great. Thank you for being here. So for those who may not be familiar with you Angel music, could you tell us a little bit about yourself? Well, what can I say I'm mature age. And I'm just like me and I'm 40 I'm actually few days shy of 41. And I'm just after a really long break getting back into the music industry. I started studying when I was you know, sort of straight out of high school, studied music and had you know, high hopes and ambitions to to write music record it which I did start doing and gigging and I started doing that, you know, started doing both gigging with a, you know corporate duo slash trio. And also also with my original music with a with another artists that I met at, at TAFE we would do you know, our own stuff together. And she played bass I play guitar. And yes, I took a took a long break. And so really, my my music is to start off with was very contemporary, kind of, you know, sort of you think back in the early sort of 2000s It was very much like indie type bands where, you know, a lot of the music and listening to were musicians that play their own instruments that wasn't there was sort of starting to merge using electronic looping but not as much waves I love Joel are crowded house, Pete Murray, just trying to think I loved you too, back then. Yeah, just a lot of a lot of those types of that genre. And then when I started studying, it was very much a fusion of jazz and blues with a little bit of contemporary element to it. But that overdoing like going to VCA or you know, studying classical, yeah, that is, you know, you know, how can you not, you know, two years of studying that got quite influenced with jazz and blues and so there was like, one of my songs that were quite heavily influenced the shape up with that genre. And, and so, yes, I've kind of got a little bit of that influence now. But a lot of the stuff that I've written was 15 years ago, and so now I'm, you know, looking now forward to start writing some new material. So that's kind of being a bit of a challenge to find the time. So you and I first met on Instagram a few months ago, through and online Stage Door singing competition, which you won. Congratulation mask. Fantastic. And then you also had some success recently with your song shape up which won the June competition on radio Easterns Talent Search. Congratulations on that too. You've won a bit of a roll at the moment. No, absolutely. And three's a charm. I'm wondering what number three is going to be? To buy a lotto ticket maybe. So tell us a little bit about your family, then you kids and that kind of thing? Yeah, well, I've got two boys. I was actually just talking to Harvey this morning. I had I had a vivid dream, and I never have them. And I was pregnant. In my dream. So I was like, no, no. Unless, unless, you know can be I can audits a girl. But still, I'm done and dusted. So two boys, Max is going to be 11 in a bit over a week. And I've got Jackson, there's a bit of an age gap between the two who's five, almost five and a half. And so both at school, which is great. And so I've got hubby as well, who's really super supportive of my, my aspirations on on, you know, taking a leap into back into the music industry. For myself. And yeah, we've been together for over 2020 years now, I think 2322 23 years, something like that. That's great. You see music a little not at all. So I'm a bit of a lone wolf in the family. None of my boys have been really super interested in music ALA. Yeah. You never know. So that that style of competition the stage or being all online, did you find that that really suited you with the kids being at home? Or are you finding a bit easy to get out? More these days? Look, I really, I enjoyed it being at home. And like, with like me saying my husband's very supportive. He, he really, if I need to, like even just for this afternoon, if I really need them out of my hair, you'll either you know, take them out like he has today or if you know, obviously when we're in COVID We couldn't you know, he just made sure he just keep him sort of occupied. Yeah, look either ways. Fine. Like I know, I did have a gig in May. And so that was, you know, that was fine too. He's happy to stay home and look after them. He's really good. But yeah. As long as I just said right, this is what I communicate with him and say this is what's happening. This is my cut off. This is what I need to do. This is sort of roughly how much time we just kind of you no work he just helped with working around that with me. That's so good. That's so important, yeah. So obviously, you've you've talked a little bit about your life before you had children. Your music was a really big part of your life. It was you've studied your work as a music teacher delve into a little bit more about was it always your dream to do music? Sort of how many how many hours we you'd be out of the house doing your gigs? Was it it? Was it like almost a full time sort of commitment to music? Or kids? Yeah, definitely. I mean, with the study, being immersed in it. I even my part time job was at JB Hi Fi so it was a big? Yeah, I would have to say even with my spare time on weekends, I would spend that year rehearsing either for the, for my, you know, the corporate duo, or even with my friend as well. So or, you know, or weekday, because when I had time during the week when I was at uni, so yeah, it was pretty much like night and day it was yeah, all about all about music beforehand. I didn't really take music sort of seriously up until very late high school. So until I was in VCE. And it was like yeah, this is what I want to do halfway through year 11. Though I did pick up my guitar and start learning from the age of 15. But then voice came later. Yeah. Yeah. But before that I wanted to become an actress. Yeah, right. Either and all that. And I got really crappy crappy marks. And I was just absolutely shattered. I'm certain that that I can't. I'm not made for this, obviously. So enter music now that was yeah, that became my passion. Yeah, yeah. So when you were pregnant with your first child, did you sort of find performing wise was a bit more challenging obviously, as your body was changing. I know I had a lot of issues with breathing, I struggled with struggle to work out how to breathe properly, my diaphragm while I had a baby sitting on sort of find that sort of stuff, or how do you go with it, I stopped Well, before I got pregnant, because once I started teaching full time, I just thought I'll do teaching. And that can kind of be sort of, you know, something that I do while I, I, you know, try and do my music on the side. But once I started full time, forget it. Like it just really took over my life. And so about a year and a half after teaching was when I felt pregnant. And I remember when my firstborn was six months old, I was taking in that. And the guy, this guy, Chris, that we used to do the duo with him, he called me and I was in the middle of having my nap while my son was having it. And I was just completely bombed out. And he's like, Oh, hey, guy wanted to see what I was up to. And I'm just like, Oh, I've just I've had it. I'm just like, Oh, I'm so tired. I just, you know, it was just like, there was just no thought in my mind at any time soon to get back into any sort of like singing or, you know, in music, you know? Just wasn't on the radar. Not on the radar. No, hit me like a ton of bricks having the first one. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a lot of support around you at that time? Do you have your family in in Melbourne with you or I had my mum is as well as my hobby. My mum is so super supportive, like even now. I see her every week. And even now that I'm full time work, and she's retired, she'll come, you know, one day a week and to kind of give me a hand around the house, let's say, yeah, really, really good. And yeah, she's also supportive of what I'm doing as well. So yeah, even with that support, I was just like, yeah, just exhausted. But yeah, no, it wasn't till a couple of years later that I Yeah, there was there was reasons why. I wasn't I wasn't 100% Well, I wasn't sure what was going on. Because I know I'd go to mothers groups, and, you know, the mums, you know, we all say we're tired and all that sort of stuff. But the mum still had like energy to go out for coffees and things and I just be like, Nah, I just don't have that energy. And I thought there's something a bit not right, you know, like, why am I just so exhausted at all I can be bothered to do is just take care of my kid and just not have that energy to do anything else. You know, muster the energy to go to, to mother's grief, and even that was like, a chore for me too. And so I remember going to the doctor's because I'd get quite sick quite often, and it would take a really long time to shake off at cold. He said, we'll do a bit of a test for you. Like, you know, like, I'll ask you some questions and I didn't know what he was wearing. He's getting at but he was asking me some questions and and he kind of gave me a little number out of a number. I don't know if it was at a 10 or whatever. And he said, oh look, you kind of like borderline you've got anxiety and a bit of postnatal depression, but it's not. It's not extreme, but it's you know, it's there. And sometimes that can have an impact, you know, on your well being and also your, your immune system and so, okay, so I got like, one of those those six packs, we get like the six free canceling sessions. Yeah, yep. Yeah. So I went to those and, and look, it was good. It was good to talk to someone and but I was still very tired. And then with more tests, and I don't know, there was something I read in a book. And it was cat it was about Candida and Candida albicans which is when you have Have an overgrowth of the bad bacteria in the stomach versus your good bacteria? Yeah, that can just throw everything out of whack your immune system and you're constantly tired, because I remember I would find it really difficult to, you know, to sleep as well. And it was kind of linked all the way back to also when I realized now when I had Max, my first that I was, I had an intravenous antibiotic when just before I had him and I think that that massive amount of antibiotics that was pumped into me, just completely ruined my gut bacteria. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. So I was just like in this, like, like, my head was in the clouds for like two years until I finally realized what it was because I saw so many doctors that when I went to a nap, I went to a naturopath, this time that specialized in it. Like, right, yep. did another test to confirm it. I think it was a saliva test. And that confirmed that I had really high levels of the Candida and he's like, right got me on a Candida diet, which was cutting out all sugar or dairy or weight. It was nuts. It was first month, I was even more exhausted. And I was like, what's going on? I should be feeling better. And I said know what it is. It's all the Candida that's dying off. And it's actually pouring out all the toxins in your body. It's releasing it, but your body's not obviously not getting rid of it fast enough. So yeah, this is one thing after the other. But my God probably took me about a good year. I've kind of feel like I was normal again. Yeah, right. Yeah. So there was just like, I was just in survival mode. Yes, literally living living day to day just was to do Yeah, it was a really crap. And it was like, I was back at work just two days a week because that's all I could do. And even the days I was at work, I was just in a in like, like a daydream. I don't know, I don't even know I just functioned it's and I think because of that. I've put a lot of pressure on my adrenal glands as well. So everything was just all over the place. So I think that's why I had such a big gap because my after getting over that I just My aim was if I was going to have another child, I'm going to be the healthiest that I can be so that when I do have another child, I'm not going to have to go through all that again. So after you had Jackson then how was your health then? Ah, heaps heaps better. Um, I had lost because I put on 20 kilos my first so I've lost all of that. I'd actually stayed off the wheat and the dairy and the sugar because I found when I went back on it again, I got the Candida but I knew the signs and then I was like, right, go back onto the Candida diet again. So now I don't leading up to the pregnancy and even now I don't have wheat. I don't very it's I cut back. Like I don't have sugar. It's very rare. And dairy I still have a bit of that on my health was so so good. energy levels were a lot better. Weight was a lot was better. I'd still do put weight on and just the way my body is when I'm pregnant. And I had a natural birth. I didn't have any I was like no, no, no, they wanted to pump antibiotics into me again or like not not having it. Especially after what I went through last time so yeah, it was heaps heaps better. Yeah, that's wonderful. Yeah. Stuck between your two boys after you did start to feel better after that sort of year afterwards. Did you? Did you look back into your music? I did, actually. But it took a complete sideward turn in that when Max was about three. So when I started feeling better, I was taking him to mini maestro's. I don't know if you've you've probably have many monasteries in South Australia In Australia wide. Yeah, I have heard of it. Yeah. So it's like a little preschool music program. and fill up for toddlers. And I was typing into that. And then I was taking him to another, another mothers group that was just run by us. And so all the activities were based on, you know, whatever we sort of come up with. And so I was like, Well, how about you know, like, you know, some some days, I'd bring in my guitar, and we can sing some songs. And then I started going, Well, why don't we make something Arty, something crafty. And then we can use that in the songs and get them moving. And then with that, I kind of come up with this concept called Creative tots, Australia, which is infusing new music, movement, and crafts, and started developing lessons, creating songs on GarageBand. So, you know, using my music background, as well as my educational background, as well. And, you know, made a logo, so had a professional logo made, I had a website made, I've still got the Facebook page up, which is one of the links in my Instagram, on my Instagram, LinkedIn, bio. And, yeah, I've bought instruments and asked and, like, everything that I needed, or my materials and, and stuff to promote myself. And I started going to, to like other play groups and saying, hey, you know, I've got this, this new this program, would you like me to come in and, you know, give it a trial. And, you know, give me some feedback on what you think, went to the local library and did the same thing. And I actually repainted carpet in my garage to make it into a space and I kind of went to audit all the foundational stuff. And I fell pregnant with Jackson. So yeah, I've got puppets on this one hand puppets as well. So like, yeah, I've got all everything's in the garage. Yeah. Everything's still there. But that's something another project that I'm gonna get to. It's sort of like it's waiting. They're just ready for you to pick it up when you're ready. Yeah, when I'm ready, not ready yet. There's a few things I want to do first, before I go back to it, that thing that I want, again, I did professional development as well. So there's another program by they're very well known in Melbourne. They do educational stuff for schools, books and music for pre pre schools and primary schools. I don't know if you'd call it a hood. Susie, and Phil Davis split up. Music is their program. So yeah, so I did a couple of professional development courses with them. So I put a lot into it in that sort of, yeah, three to two to three years. But before Yeah, I fell pregnant with Jackson. Like I was even about to do another course with them. When I was probably about booked in seven months, and got to seven months, it was in January, which is really warm up and I was like, Nah, I can't do it too much. So yeah, so yeah, definitely back in the music, but more in a different different way. Yeah. Fine doing that. That you you met your own need, you know, being involved in music. Did you sort of feel like you might have been helping the mums to like, did you see it as but you were also giving something back? To your community, I suppose. And helping mums? Yeah, yeah, I did. Actually, I actually. What else did I do? I was also ending the classes with meditation because I was in into the meditation at the time to incorporated that. And yeah, one of the mums in did mention that. She's like, I've never seen my child so relaxed, like that. Good way to kind of, you know, because you've raised them up was a good way to kind of settle them down and bring them down the end of the lesson. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And I guess you're giving some of these kids might not have had any sort of exposure to music and instruments and that kind of stuff before so yes, that's fantastic, too. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. We talked a bit about support early you've got your husband and your mom within your own sort of work circle at the moment or your your colleagues your music, sort of circle. Do you have any others around you that share this sort of motherhood slash music experience, or do you find It's not really that anyone, I feel very isolated actually. Yeah, that I'm in my faculty is very small. So I've only got one other colleague who teaches music and she has no children. Look, actually, my instrumental teachers are actually no, I've got two that that have got children. I don't know, of one of them, my vocal coach, she, she's got, she's got one son, a young son, I haven't actually, you know, sat down and spoken with her. So this might be a really good thing to kind of open up with them. They, you know, how they, how they cope with their creativity, and yeah, balancing that with with kids. But otherwise, you know, like, I've got the downhill performance coaching that I've been part of, since October, August, sorry, August of last year. And I'm actually the oldest, it's sort of me. And then 25 is the next eldest, and then it's like, 19, and all the way down to eight. So even the teachers, they none of them have got kids. So I feel very isolated, even within that, that sort of performance coaching family that I'm part of as well. Yeah, it's interesting isn't like, you can be a part of something and share something so strong, but then that with them lacking that experience of of being a parent, because it can create quite a separation, I guess, at different types. Have you found sort of any times where, and even through your work that people just don't get it? When you're a mom and you need, you might need to change something or do something because your kids need you? Like, people don't understand they sort of, because they don't, they don't have children? They don't get it. They're like, Oh, really? Like, have you found that happen at all? No, not really, actually. I think most people are pretty good. And if if they haven't got children, they've got you know, close family members that have got young children, and they're quite understanding of seeing how they travel, you know, and how hard it is for them. Look, it's completely different when you've got your own like, you can't compare but you know, I think most of being pretty good. Let's take six and I am not your SWANA. So we've raised the topic, this concept of mum guilt that that phrase that society is created for us. How do you feel about that? The mum guilt and Yeah, funny that because I was at a podcast, a live podcast on Thursday night. It was filmed. I don't know if you've heard of the Melbourne housewives? Sure. Have you heard of Jackie Gillies? Yeah, I actually I saw your your Instagram post and I was jealous. I was hurt because Julia Maurice was on there was interviewed a Jackie Gillies was interviewing Julia Morris and Julia Morris, who is, you know, in the show beers, and she's got two kids of her own. And Jackie was interviewing her and asking her about, you know, how do you find the balance? And she's like, hard work hard works work times work. So there's no bloody difference. And she's like, do you get guilty you know, being off working, especially with the gig she's got at the moment with I'm A Celebrity Get celebrity out of here because she she goes overseas for that down South Africa. And she said, You know what I used to she goes, I just think guilt is bullshit. And you shouldn't have to put that on yourself. And it's taken me until I'm 53 to kind of realize that so it was like for me, it was really good to hear someone else it's almost like it validates your own feelings when you hear somebody else say it. Yeah, so you know what? It goes I used to come home and go Oh, give me you know, lots of cuddles a year worth of colors that I missed. And she said I don't do that anymore. I just come in and slip into the way like as if I hadn't been away for such a long time, you know, not make such a big deal out of it. So it was really good to hear that because hoes, I do. I do feel guilty, especially, you know, when I'm out. I'm out on a Monday night. I've gotten another lesson on a Tuesday. Or, you know, if I'm doing some recording here for my, for my music, and that's like time thinking that's time precious time I could be with my kids. So I do feel guilty about that, you know? Does that come from yourself? Or do you feel judgment from society or others? Yeah, I definitely think it's from myself because I'm someone who's very have a lot of high expectations. So I kind of feel like, you know, I knit with the time that I've got, especially now I'm working full time. I need to be spending more time with my children now while they're young. Making sure I have that connection. But my husband always you know, he's really good. He'll go to work. They love you. You know, they really love you. Remember when you weren't feeling well, and they were all worried about you? You know, they really love you don't worry. So my husband tries to sort of, you know, say no, don't worry. Don't stress ratio. Are you here ratio? Me? Yeah. Do you did kids have that? Do they get into music? Like they know that you're doing music do that? Are they interested in like, do they come to gigs or anything like that? No. Look, I'd love to one day when I suppose I don't look I've asked Max and if he wanted to come to come to them and he's like, nice he's not really too interested. Like that's my eldest because he's you know, to kind of sit still and not you know, muck around and run around the room. Oh, my youngest would come in in a heartbeat. I think there's one thing that does make me guilty more so with my youngest is that he every time I'm out, he'll say I miss you mom. I miss you. I missed you all the time. It's nice a stabs I feel like I have to you know cuz I'm just like, oh, no, you poor little thing. Oh, dear. They're lovely. Identity, obviously when when you're not a mum, you can be anything you want. And then you become a mother and and do you have this? Is a this concept of being more than I don't want to say just a mum because that's not true that we are so much more than just a mum. But do you feel like it's important to you to maintain your own identity outside of being a mum, so maintain? You're a singer, you're a wife, your teacher or that kind of thing? Is that something that's important? Yeah, I'm actually really good at compartmentalizing different parts of my life. Like, you know, when I'm a mum, and a mom and sometimes even like that, I could be doing things with the boys and I'm guilty of you know, being on social media, which is really bad. And but yeah, I'm pretty good. Like when I'm at school, I'm teaching mode when I'm at home. You know, Mum, wife mode, and when I'm doing my music staff, it's yeah, it's I'm musician Alyssia. You know, the less the less so I'm pretty good at compartmentalizing? Is that why you chose to have a stage name to separate the two worlds for yourself? Yeah, yeah. Just to separate the mum, I'd know the me to yeah, having something separate, to identify as, yeah. Do you think? Do you kids sort of are they aware of what you're creating? Like they they see that, that you're making music that you know, and do you want them to, to know that to sort of show them that mums can still do things, I guess? Yeah, that's a good question. No, they definitely know for sure. And they know it's a big part of my life. Like even yesterday. I was part of the Dan Hamill performance photo shoot for their for their marketing. They do every sort of three to six months and We were out in the city and I got them to come with me, so that they could see where I'm coming everywhere I go every week. Yep. And my eldest is like, ah, kind of on the way out in the city every week, because he Yeah, I do. So it's, it's good for them to see that good for them to see. I think it's a really good lesson for them to save you, you know, that you've got to put the hard work in to you know, to get to set your rewards. That nothing comes easy. And you do what you have to do. To get, you know, what it is that you want. I think that's like really important. Like, you can be, you know, get the best grades. But really, I think when it comes down to it, it's got to do with hard work and dedication. So I hope that they they see that they see that and then one day, that kind of brushes off on them. Yeah. Yeah, but ya know, they definitely, they definitely do know what I'm doing and, you know, keep them in the loop. I don't know how much they really sort of care. But I know I've the funniest thing I'll tell you there was one of my showcases, when we're in lockdown last year, I obviously had to film it online. And I'm all done up with you know, red lipstick because I was and massive eyelashes and dressed up. And I walked out from the bathroom to my study. And past all the boys and Mexico's my eldest, Pam, you look ridiculous. And then my youngest goes for Mum, you look really beautiful mum looks like creatchi just funny the dynamics. See what I do to you know, to put on you know, dressing up or part of it to put on a you know, a show or performance. That's gorgeous. My little one he often say that and say Ma'am, you look beautiful, and just sort of put my dressing gown on and I feel like rubbish. But he's there to pump me up. He's a good little fella. Yeah. Is there anything else that you wanted to share any sort of any further sort of thoughts on any issues that we might not have? chatted about so far. I just I don't know, I suppose it's just the creating that balance. Because for me, it's always a massive, massive struggle, especially now that I'm working full time to find that balance. I'm really, really good at multitasking, but it's forever keeping. I feel like I'm always floating above water and be a bit lovely to know what others are doing. But just floating above water, to find that balance of time for myself for my music, for work, my work demands that I have demands as a mom. And I think the one thing I've learnt is that if you can have at least one or two people like I do that are really supportive and willing to help out like that's everything, you know, like I wouldn't really be able to do all this without the small support network that I've got, which is my mom and my husband. And any for anyone listening like it doesn't have to be a partner or a mountain, it could be an auntie or could be a really good friend or, you know, as long as you've got someone that you can be there to kind of take a bit of a load off or to help out so that you've got that time. Like even last year, in lockdown what kept me sane and sort of helped with time was we had a living or pair. We had someone who lived I mean, we had less space in the house. But I had an extra hand. So that helped as well. So it could be anything really Yeah, find find what works, what works for you get that balance to find that time to do everything is being pulled in all these different directions and you've got a sort of like you said before, I think that idea of sort of putting things into little compartments and trying to keep things separate. That's that's a really good idea. Yeah. So what do you have coming up in the future Alicea in the future because I have never formally released anything. That's a plan that I've got Within the next sort of six to 868 months so working with my current vocal coach she's got a plan put in place some goals over the next six months so one is well, you know writing up the setlist bio. Also going to record some new music, which I did mention earlier and use that pack that I that I got from the stage door comm to on that and get the video to go with, with the song that I can release and some, some a couple of professional photos that I can use for the release. And do a she wants me to do a launch show as well. So if not at the end of the year, maybe early next year. That's very exciting. Yeah. So you can find this year's original music on SoundCloud and YouTube and follow her on Instagram and all the links will be in the episode description. Thank you so much for being on today. Lisa, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much, Alison. It's been a pleasure. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic

Kate King US counsellor + art therapist S2 Ep60 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Kate King, a licensed professional counsellor and a certified art therapist, and a mom of of 2 based in Boulder Colorado. USA Kate grew up with a lot of art around her, her grandmother was always very creative as were her parents, her dad was a stone sculptor. Her family supported expression through creativity. Kate had a number of black sketch books that she would always carry around with her. Kate was actually doing a lot of art therapy already before knowing what it really was. Her formal schooling began at the University of Denver where Kate graduated with a dual Bachelor’s Degree in Psychology and Art. It wasn't until she completed College that she googled what to do with these studies and found art therapy. From there Kate eagerly pursued post-graduate education at Naropa University (a Buddhist-inspired school in Boulder, CO) where she earned a Master’s Degree in Transpersonal Counselling Psychology and Art Therapy. Kate is a Licensed Professional Counsellor and Board Certified and Registered Art Therapist. Her private practice is a colourful, creative, cozy space located in the Ken Caryl area of Littleton, Colorado. Under the umbrella of her business, The Radiant Life Project , Kate offers a holistic, preventive health perspective which incorporates verbal, creative, and body-centred therapy skills and techniques. She operates from a perspective that considers each person in their mental, spiritual, physical, and emotional entirety. It is her genuine belief that each person is capable of choosing their life's path, and re-creating their story along the way. Kate began writing her book The Authentic Mother - Creative Art Engagement to Support the New Parent when her son was 3 months old, as she was unable to find a book that could help her in the creative way she was seeking. Kate has also created a set of oracle cards, The Ink & Wings Oracle Deck , and I was fortunate enough to receive a reading from Kate in this podcast! If you are interested you can take a look at the cards she drew for me here Connect with Kate website / instagram / facebook / youtube Connect with the podcast - website / instagram *** This episode contains discussion around mental health, anxiety, post natal depression and birth trauma. *** If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is a pleasure to have you. My guest this week on the podcast is Kate King. Kate is a licensed professional counselor, and a certified Art Therapist, as well as being a mom of two based in Boulder, Colorado in the United States. Kate grew up with a lot of art around her. Her grandmother was always very creative, as were her parents. Her dad was a stone sculptor, her family supported expression through creativity. Kate had a number of black sketchbooks that she would always carry around with her. And Kate was actually doing a lot of art therapy already, before really knowing what it was. Her formal schooling began at the University of Denver, where Kate graduated with a dual bachelor's degree in psychology and art. It wasn't until she completed college that she Googled what to do with these two modalities and found art therapy. From there, Kate eagerly pursued postgraduate education at Naropa University, a Buddhist inspired school in Boulder, Colorado, where she earned a master's degree in transpersonal, Counseling Psychology and art therapy. Kate is a licensed professional counselor, and board certified and registered art therapist. Her private practice is a colorful, creative and cozy space located in the ken Carroll area of Littleton in Colorado. Under the umbrella of her business, the Radiant Life Project, Kate offers a holistic preventative health perspective, which incorporates verbal, creative and body centered therapy skills and techniques. Kate operates from a perspective that considers each person in their mental, spiritual, physical and emotional entirety. It is her genuine belief that each person is capable of choosing their life's path and recreating their story along the way. If today's episode is triggering for you at all, I encourage you to seek help from those around you medical professionals or from resources online. I have compiled a list of great international resources on my website, Alison newman.net/podcast. This episode contains discussions around mental health, anxiety, postnatal depression and birth trauma. The music used on today's episode is from my new age, Ambient Music trio called LM Joe and is used with permission. Lm j is myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you so much for being a part of this. It's really it's lovely to meet you. It's lovely to meet you. I'm grateful to be here. Yeah. So whereabouts are you in the US? I am in Denver, Colorado. Yeah, right. That's pretty nice there, isn't it? It's beautiful. And very close to the infamous Red Rocks. concert venue. So I don't know if you've heard of that. But it's really pretty place. Yeah, right. So what time of year is over there now? You're in your summer, aren't you? Yes. This is the hottest time of the summer for us. Yeah, right. So jealous of where you are. I would love to be winter right now. Don't be jealous. It's horrible. Here. It is just fair. I just, we've just come back from a week up in Queensland where it's like nicer. Because it's just so gray. Like I can deal with cold but I just can't deal with lack of sunshine. Like it's just just gray. And it just makes me annoyed. And yeah, you're like in Colorado. We have like 300 days of sunshine here. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Don't tempt me. That sounds really. Maybe it's time for a vacation. Yeah, I've actually never been to America. So there you go. And I've never been Where You Live either so I would love to visit. Australia is pretty good. A lot Australia. Yes, I've heard beautiful things you after your name, you've got lots of letters. Can you just just tell us what, what you what you do? Yes. So the M A is representative of my master's degree, which is in transpersonal, Counseling Psychology and art therapy. Transpersonal Counseling Psychology is a form of psychology that considers where the psyche and the spirit meet. And so there's a lot of influences around spirituality and just kind of open mindedness and open heartedness into different traditions and modalities. So that's the MA, the LPC is my Licensed Professional Counselor certification. So that's my therapy license here in the state of Colorado. And the ATR since I wrote this book, actually, I have a new credential now it's ATR dash BC, which stands for board certified registered art therapist. And so that's a art therapy designation. Excellent. So going right back to the beginning, I guess, how did you first get interested in? Was it the art that came first? Or sort of the thinking about people? Like how did you sort of get drawn into this sort of area? Yeah, it was the art. My my family is sort of creative at the roots. My grandmother was always very creative. My dad is a stone sculptor. And so I had a lot of art surrounding me growing up, and my family really supported just expressing that way. And I used to have these black sketchbooks that I just would fill with drawings, I would carry these with me everywhere I went, I had bookshelves filled with them. And, you know, they were, I wouldn't go anywhere with them. They were always with me. And so I think I was doing art therapy on myself before I knew what it was. It wasn't until I was about to graduate from college. And I had a Bachelors of Arts Degree and a psychology degree in a double bachelor's focus that I was like, What do I do with my life? And I actually Googled, what do you do with an art degree and a psychology degree? And that's how I first learned about art therapy from Google. Yeah. And then did you sort of go, this feels very familiar to me, like, Was it something that just sat naturally with you anyway? Yes, it resonated so strongly that I just, I stopped really looking and I just started looking for a graduate program where I could really studied what I wanted to study. And I ended up at a school here in Colorado called Naropa University that was founded by a Buddhist monk. And it has a strong background of meditation and different kinds of spiritual practices. And so the coming together of science and spirituality and creativity and psychology, it was just like, everything that I was interested in. Yeah, that sounds amazing. I didn't actually know that places like that existed. That is really cool. It is very cool. I did not know either, until I plugged them into Google. So for people who aren't familiar, how would you describe art therapy? Art Therapy is it's a form of, there's actually two different schools of art therapy. One is considered art as therapy, which is that the art is inherently healing, and you don't really need to talk about it, do anything, you know, just creating heals things within us because it helps us to sublimate or move the energy through our body and out from us in a way that's productive. And the other school of art therapy is art as psychotherapy, which is more of what I do in my private practice where I would provide specific directives, kind of projects for people that are designed with the intention of helping them investigate what's going on in their lives and have sort of a visual representation of that, rather than just the talking that we normally do in therapy, which can so often, kind of people can Avoid talking about certain things, or they can hide information from themselves from their therapists that way. But art therapy is just a really gentle kind of backdoor into the psyche that allows you to work through the metaphor of color, and line and shape and image. So you see what you're ready to see in your art. And the art therapist can sort of gently reflect like, wow, it looks like you only used you know the color blue today, what does blue mean to you? And then we can sort of have a collaborative dialogue about what this symbology looks like in your life and how your art can be kind of a roadmap for your psyche? Hmm. Do you find then that people that what actually comes out of people is often it's it's things that you can't put words to generally, because it's so deep, maybe people don't even realize what they're bringing out of themselves? If that makes sense. Yeah, sometimes, sometimes, people, they don't know, they don't expect the art to move through them in the way it does. But usually, once they do create something, it's easier to talk about it because it already exists in some form. Now that they've made it, it doesn't feel so pent up. And sometimes talking about things through metaphor just feels a lot safer. Instead of someone talking about their trauma, they can talk about the, you know, the lightning bolts that are in their imagery, and that holds the kind of energy of that trauma without it feeling so triggering that it shuts them down. Hmm. Yeah. So it's a really good way for people to communicate without feeling. I don't know, scared, I suppose that. Yeah, wonderful. It's like a natural titration process where they can, they can kind of go as deep or as as intensive as they want to go. And they don't have to do anything they don't want to do their art kind of helps to guide their comfort. Yeah, yeah, that is really cool. Because I've had my fair share of, of therapy over the years, but I've never done art therapy. And it's sort of a kind of wonder, it's just to see what happens. Especially as a creative person, I'm surprised that surprise, you wouldn't do that. Although, you know, you don't have to be a creative person to benefit from art therapy, I actually, I really enjoy seeing people come to art therapy, who have no art background at all, because they don't have any picture in their mind for making something beautiful or frameable. It's just expression for the sake of expression. And sometimes that takes a lot of pressure off. So for people who are already artists, sometimes we need to move through the layers of like, releasing some of the pressure. And so I'll have them make art with their nondominant hand or with their eyes closed, things like that, so that they don't have that pressure to make something beautiful. Sometimes you need to make something messy or ugly. Yeah, cuz that's the thing is in a restaurant, you're not really addressing the issues. I mean, you're showing new issues, I suppose the the lack of letting go and control and the pressure that you feel and the expectation, whatever. But yeah, perhaps not then allowing you to go into that next layer of what you kind of might need to work through, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. But it's all it's all good work. And I think whatever is ready to be worked on comes up in this session. And so we don't really have to dig too deep. It just shows up, because ultimately, our systems want to heal. Yeah, I've heard that actually like that, that I can't, I don't know how to describe it. But it's like your, your inner, whatever that is, knows where it's supposed to be. And it will do what it needs to do to try and get you there. But then the humaneness of us and the ego stops us from getting there. Right, exactly, yeah, we get in our own way, a lot of the time. Art is a really great way to help to sort of release some of those narratives and just let you connect with the part of you that knows what you need to heal and express and grow. Yeah. Coming back to your own art, what sort of style or is there a way you can describe like the mediums you like working with what what's sort of your art? Yeah, so my art has sort of changed over time. It's interesting. As an art therapist, I know now that the different kinds of art I made over time were reflective of how healed I was in my own psycho emotional process. So what I do now is I love watercolor and goulash like a like the pigmented like the tubes of watercolor, not the palette necessarily because I like it when it's really vibrant. And I also like to draw I like a lot of detail and I love just black rollerball pens, and then sort of working with them together with watercolor can be interesting. But in the beginning for the longest time, most of my life, I it was just black and white, really intense, patterned, organized drawings. And I now know that that was my way of containment and of kind of holding myself together. And as I went through my own therapeutic journey, I was able to explore more with, you know, watercolor that drips and bleeds and it's less than control. I also really liked colored pencil, just colors really vibrant colors are important to me. And lately, I've been drawing a lot of imagery about goddesses and the divine feminine and sort of the celestial. I have pictures with like a goddess with horns and wings and a sun, you know, solar systems. So it gets a little magical for me. Oh, that's so cool. It's interesting, isn't it, there's probably people out there now thinking, they're thinking about the stuff that they make, that they're starving, they're thinking, Oh, I wonder what that means. Like, we can, we can draw so much from what we're doing. And it's interesting, you say how it changes like I, I have times when and this is just me personally, and I'm sure there's people, you know, we change all the time. But there's some days I really like to draw, and I can't draw like I'm not a draw at all. But I love coloring and I love the sound that it makes. And it makes me feel really grounded. Almost like I have an urge to write in lead pencil like that kind of feeling where I don't know back to the earth where you know, it's I don't know how to describe it anyway. And then other days, like the watercolor, you happy to let things just wish wash everywhere and you don't mind if something dripped somewhere? Or well, maybe then you do. And then you go, Oh, actually, no, I don't want to do this today, I need something that's going to stay more I want it to stay. So we sort of change, even, you know, day to day of what we're using, based on how we're feeling and what we're going through, I suppose. Yes, the materials can mirror what we're feeling. And they can also be used to sort of like nudge us when we're ready for growth. So a really controlled person, when they're stable and resourced. Watercolor would be great for them, because it would sort of push them to become more comfortable with less control. And when you practice that with art, your brain starts to become more familiar with that. And then it's more likely to repeat that in other areas of your life that are not art, like maybe your relationships, you don't have as much control. And you're more okay with that. So it kind of pairs well with all of life. Yeah, that just reminded me of a lady I had on the podcast just a couple of weeks ago, Fiona Valentine, and she's in Australia. And her and her husband do classes for businesses, like groups of employees, who want to try and extend their creativity. So they, they get them to draw, and it's something that's achievable. So it's not going to make people feel like alienated that they can do it. And then when they realize that they can actually draw, then it changes those neural pathways. And then like you say, it flows over to the other parts of their life. So the idea is that then it might help them in their work to think differently, or, you know, see things in a different way, I suppose. So it's absolutely a thing, isn't it? It's amazing. Yeah, yeah, our brains are really malleable. And so if we can find some mechanism that helps to teach our brains to think differently, it affects our whole life, it has a ripple effect that reaches really far. Now, I want to start talking about some of the things you've created. And I'm gonna start about your book fairs, which you've kindly sent me a copy of thank you so much. It's called the authentic mother, creative art engagement to support the new parent and I have read through this and it is sensational. It is really, really, like I was blown away. I really, I wish we shouldn't say things like this, but I wish I had had this when I had my first child because I think it would have made a massive difference to my mental wellness and my journey through mental illness. Can you see We've asked what the sort of impetus was to create it and telling us in your own words, rather than me, telling people what it is to share, share what it is all about. Yes, absolutely. And thank you so much for your kind words, it really, it really is a labor of love. So, I wrote this book in the very beginning stages of my motherhood journey, after I had my first child, probably when he was, I don't know, maybe three months old, I started writing it because I needed a book. And because I was feeling really, like, shocked and lost and overwhelmed by motherhood, because it was not the beautiful picture that everyone said it would be. The birth was totally traumatic, like it was very, very challenging. And so I kept trying to find a support resource. And everything I looked for it was either kind of shaming or not really validating for the truth, it really didn't give a lot of creative support, which was very important to me at that time. And so I just started to journal and write about my experience. And one day when I was journaling about it, I had left it on my computer, and a friend of mine came over. And she saw it, and she's like, What is this? And I told her and she was like, Kate, you have to publish this. This is what so many moms need. And I'm like, no, nobody wants to read this. And so ultimately, that was the beginning. And she said, Yes, moms need this, for sure. And so because it's an art therapy book, it talks a little bit about the neuroscience and kind of the psychological aspects of what happens in the brain in the body when we become mothers, fathers when we all go through this, but it felt important to have real artwork in it. And so I sent out a beacon to moms and I ended up getting over 35 Real moms who don't identify as artists. And they I sent them the directives that I write about in the book. And they made art for the book. And so I have real, real pieces of artwork for the projects and directives that I've designed to help support moms, dads, just new parents, as they're navigating everything from body image stuff to mental health challenges to issues with your family and your in laws and boundaries, cultural expectations. So it's a really wide variety of directives. And the intention here is really just to support that the motherhood experience is very vast and broad and unique for everyone. And it's important that we have a creative outlet for that, so that we don't spiral down to a place where we feel isolated, and things get worse. So literally, that was this book is what helped you and stopped you from doing just that. Man, thank you for sharing it with the world. That fringe, whoever you are, thank you. Because it is so valuable. It's I don't know, I, I, when I was flipping through it, I just kept thinking, I wish I'd known this, I wish I thought like this, I wish I'd had, I wish like literally I wish I had it would have even with my second child when I was seven years older, I had more experience in the world, I was now working in childcare. So I physically knew how to take care of a child. And I kept telling myself, it's not going to be the same, it's gonna be totally different, you know, for all these, whatever reasons, and my personnel depression was far worse than it ever was when my first child. So the talk that like, and you're saying, Hey, you talk about I guess, what's the word, the jargon? I don't know if that's the right word, but of your background, you know, the the psychology behind things, and you know, the neural pathways and what have you. But that's not overwhelming. It's not like you pick it up and you feel alienated by the words, if you know what I mean. Anyone can pick it up without having any understanding or any background or knowledge in that field. So that's really good. So you don't feel you know, you're already going through enough as a new mother. Like, I don't know this, and I don't know that. But you pick this up and it feels familiar. Which is lovely. It's like, if I'm getting really sloppy now but it literally it feels like you're right here next to me if you know what I mean. Like it feels like you're right here. So I'm getting really emotional. Really does it really feels like that and, and I love that you call it the authentic mother because it's you know, because we have all these, you know, versions of what a mom's supposed to be and the good mom and the bad mom and you're not doing this you're not doing that and you're not doing it right. It's like Get rid of all of that those labels, and you go back to who you are, in your core. You're this child's mother and how to sort of look after yourself and keep yourself well. Sorry, that was really blurry. I appreciate it. No, I It really warms my heart that the book has touched you because that was, that was what I so needed. And that was my intention. I wanted people to feel with this book, like they were talking to a friend. And I wanted it to feel accessible to people who wanted to kind of understand what was going on with them, but didn't have the psychology background. So I'm happy to hear that it doesn't feel dense and jargony accessible to you. Because that's, that was my intention. Now, it's lovely. Sorry, I've just raved on so much. But honestly, I just even as I'm sort of thinking that because I want I want to do this stuff in it, I want to use it in a way. I'm not gonna have any more children. But I feel like I could benefit from doing the the exercises and like you said, the directives in here, thinking it from looking at through another lens, perhaps as other issues going on in my life. So Oh, yes, all of legally. All of these directives are applicable outside of early motherhood as well. I mean, I couldn't really honestly flip to any of them. I just flipped to one that was about just creating this called the insecurity image. It's on page 138. And this is just about creating imagery about what you feel insecure about. A new mom to feel insecure. This could be about your workplace, your relationship, your your new gray hairs, like I don't know, it could be about anything. Yeah, let's see, I've just got glasses. I don't want to wear them. Yeah, so any of these are applicable inside of motherhood, outside of motherhood in groups. I've done a lot of these directives with my friends. I've done them with my husband. I've even done them with children because they're really fun. Yeah. So there you go, everyone, even if you're not having another child, you can definitely gain something from this. And something else you you've got that you've made, which you just shared with me before we went live is your I don't want to come to do a column tarot cards, or you call them Oracle Card, Oracle Card. Sorry, yeah, this is the ink and wings, Oracle deck, because you know, my art is magical. And it includes wings. So there you have it. So this is a deck of cards that is comprised of my artwork. And it is very, sort of spiritually rich, and it helps with insight and just gaining navigation for your for your life. I I pull cards almost every day and my kids love it. We pull cards for what you know what's gonna happen today, or what do I need to focus on right now? And it seems like it's always really spot on. I love doing my cards. I often do them overnight when about when I'm about to fall asleep. And I'll do the three card spreads. I will do like the past, present or future. And then other times just there'll be another card that's like poking its head out and like okay, yes, you obviously need to tell me something. And then I've just end up with like, all these. Oh, just one more, just one more. But yeah, I love them. We might. We might talk about them a bit later and possibly do a reading if you're up for that. Oh, yes. I would love to do a reading. That will be a first for the podcast to no one's ever done. I love it. It's always so fun when I do those because I'm like, is this gonna work? And then usually it kind of does. So we'll see if it works. We'll test it out. All right. Ready? Now you mentioned one of your children there when you said he was sorry, he or she I'm not sure was three months old when you started writing the book. Can you share a little bit more about your children? Yes. So my son is named Bridger. And he's nine. So he in this book are about the same age. I birthed them at the same time at the same time they birth myself as a new mom. So I have Bridger who's nine and I have Heidi who is six, and no more babies for me because my hands are so full with those. I can relate to that. So you said you you share your sort of experience with the oracle cards, you're obviously quite sort of open and communicative with the children and share a lot of your things you enjoy, I suppose. Are they into do some art. They do the artwork as well? Yes, yeah, we have set up a designated art space in our home. And so sometimes when it's a weekend and we have some extra time we get Really excited about having our time together. And I had a teacher in graduate school in my art therapy program that always said, you have to lay out your art materials like like you're in a candy store, so that they all just look so enticing, that you just can't wait to dive in. And so we keep our room like that in our home where everything has its place, and it's colorful, and the boxes are open, and you can see what's inside. So the kids will just go into the art space with me, and some days will paint some days will make a big mess, some days will, you know, be very, very tidy and neat. And we'll do collage, we'll do everything. And it is such amazing bonding time. Even my husband will join us sometimes. And he I don't think he identifies as being very creative. But I think he really enjoys it when he's there. What not what I would read it, yeah, and you just kind of get lost in the art process. And we do have, at the end of every year, we have a family vision board kind of ritual where we all go through collages and create imagery about what we want to bring into the next year. And so that has become something my husband has really enjoyed. And he actually invited his father to join us a couple of those years. And it was so fun just having the whole family make vision boards. And then you put up all our vision boards. And it's interesting to see what everyone wants that's similar or different and how they overlap and how they kind of coordinate. So when you had your daughter, then I don't want to say you breeze through it. But did you find it easier because you have those tools and you knew what you needed to do to incorporate your art to help you manage the transition to have? I think it was easier for me? Yes, I think having the tools was a big a big deal. And it really supported me. And also, I think it also helped me that I had already sort of stretched my life around one baby. And so I felt like, you know, there's no, there's no selfishness left, like might as well throw another one in here. While we're while we're the bottomless pit of caregiving. Yes, but it definitely was interesting to have art. When I had my daughter, my son was two and a half. And so he was active in the art process. So we would be able to make art together at that period, which was really a kind of neat thing. So that when the baby was, you know, nursing or sleeping, I had something to do with my son that actually benefited both of us. That's really important, isn't it? Because I feel like a lot of the time, pardon me, the the first child, depending on their age can sort of feel a little bit shafted, like there's a new baby here. And now I'm number two, and I don't like this, and then you can see the sort of perhaps some changes in behavior, you might not like putting it that way. But yeah, to be able to do that you keep your relationship really strong with him. And I guess to its, it allows him to realize that this new little person isn't a threat to him. So he's might be more anonymous and more accepting. But maybe I don't know, it sort of helps all of the three of you together to create, you know, a little unit as a three rather than a, it's me, it's mum time, or it's not my mom time, you know that that conflict? Right? Yes, the art can be sort of like a joining force. That's a really good word. Yes. That's really good word. I like that. I'm going to take that quote. Yes, go for it. I also think it's good with when when babies are around moms who are creative, then creativity is a normal part of life. And so it feels more accessible to the kids. It's like, if you grow up, you know, eating vegetables, then vegetables are just normal and you just eat them, right? It's the same thing with creativity and moms get to model that by their own creative process and the inclusion of their kids through that and sort of joining. Absolutely. And I think then as you as the kids get older, perhaps then realizing, seeing that deeper meaning behind the art, like sneaking into that art therapy sort of realm that it's not, I'm not just making marks on the paper. I'm not just painting I'm actually using this as a tool in my life, which is Powerful to give kids from a young age, isn't that, right? Because we all have this tool, even the people who identify as non creative, we are all creative if we tap into it, and if we allow ourselves to be and it's, it can be completely free, you can go make art with nature, it does not have to be expensive, it does not have to cost really anything. And so I think it's accessible. And a lot of us just forget, or a lot of people are really traumatized by their kindergarten art teachers. So I get a lot of clients who come in and they're like, I am not an artist, I'm not artistic. My kindergarten art teacher told me that I'm bad at art. So I haven't made art since. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, it's time for a corrective experience. Because art is about being expressive. It's about making, it's not about the end product. Yes, I'm really glad you said that, actually. Because as you were starting that conversation there, something came into my head and what you just said to completely confirmed it. I come from a background of working in childcare, I was in childcare for nine years. And our center had this really big philosophy about, we had this art room that was available all the time to any child of any age, or like the candy store, like everything was there, you could pick what you wanted to. And you didn't have to have an idea of what you're going to make before you went in, which I think is really important, because I think some people can be like, to the children. Now what are you going to make, it's like, well, you don't really no till you there and you're experimenting and experiencing, then something might come out. But then a lot of kindergartens and I know a lot of like early, maybe reception in new ones, teachers would have just like a cut out like a printed stencil, each child will get the exact same picture, maybe just say it's Christmas time and everyone's got to make a Christmas tree. And it all has to be green. And it all has to have the same things on it. And it all has to be folded the same way. And we used to have this poster up in our staff room, and it was like a picture of a child created a painting of whatever. And then it had this, you know, repetitive, exactly the same image. And it said, This is art, this isn't and it sort of helps you realize that it's not about the end product, it's not about having that whatever looking tree to give to Mum and Dad, it's about, you know, I always valued like you can see behind me, you might not be able to cause the sun, but I've got I put most of my kids paintings around the room. And a lot of them are just I have no idea what they are. Or they might be just some whatever's on a page, but I love them and I value them so much more than I value, you know, that stencil carbon copy, because I know that they haven't done that. That's the teacher's intention is to make everybody make the same thing. And I just think it's damaging to the little imaginations that want to run wild and be magical and be inventive. And maybe your tree has horns, maybe it's purple, maybe it has six trunks, you know, we need to be able to have that expressive freedom. Yeah, maybe it's not actually a tree, maybe it's a rocket ship. Or, again, if it was my chart, if you like you're picking up. Right. Right. And, and having a place where they can have, you know, the sky be the limit to their creative ability and capacity is so valuable for kids. Absolutely. And I think I've spoken about this with a lot of moms is that fear that we can have about and probably coming from our sort of, perhaps issues with control and having things done. Right and not having mess is it's really can be really challenging to set your children up with with paints and sit there and not freak out because it's going everywhere. And it's on them. And it might not be on the paper that can be quite challenging for for moms to get over as well. Yes, I think I tell moms who have that, that kind of issue with the messiness piece to go outside and make art in the grass or to have a designated set of clothing. That's art making clothing that we just don't worry about, or to put down a giant piece of tarp or a sheet that you don't care about so that you really you can let go of that. But it's also valuable for the mom to notice that that kind of anxiety around the mess, and to do her work around that too, because the art is actually helping her to see an area where she still needs healing. And so the art therapy is happening for her even if she's not the artist, she's the witness. But she she has a thing revealed. So it's notation back into herself. Hmm, that is so true, isn't it? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Two topics that I love to sort of delve into with my guests on this show. One is identity. And we've spoken briefly about that, but we'll talk about it more. And the other thing is mum guilt. How do you feel about that? I think mom guilt is a real thing. And I think most if not all, moms feel it. And I love that it is something that's out in the open as a real thing. So that it takes the shame out of it, if possible. And if you can name your experience of having mom guilt, I think just the power of naming it takes some of the charge out of it. But yeah, I think we, I mean, I think you're in a different culture than I am. But I think collectively, many cultures on our globe have these sort of predetermined rules and expectations and structures that mothers are supposed to fit into. And it really does us a disservice. Because it doesn't allow us to be who we are. And so that's a big reason why my jam is authenticity. Because I really, I want to see what, what is real for people. And if someone is inundated with guilt, about working a lot, or not working a lot, or not being creative or not lending baby food in their home, blender, whatever. I think it's really important that they not avoid that, and that they actually say, Gosh, I feel really ashamed and guilty that I'm feeding my kid food from a pouch instead of you know, homemade. And what's that about? Right? It's another example of how we can kind of turn the arrow back at ourselves, and really invite ourselves into inner work around. What is this guilt? What is it reflecting about me? Where did it come from? Maybe it's even a lineage pattern that has been alive for generations in my own family. And how many women in my family felt unsupported as mothers? I don't know, because they didn't talk about it until maybe this generation. That's so true, isn't it? And I feel like because we're all talking about it, it takes the sting out of it a bit. You don't have to feel guilty for feeling guilty. You know, for one of a better description, it's, you know, it exists. I hate it. I think it's a load of, I hate it so much. I wish it didn't exist, but and I think that's why I like talking about it, because the more we talk about it, you know, like I said, it, it takes a feel like it takes the power out of it. Because once it's named, it's almost like I don't know, I'm trying, I had this thought come through my head, like, you know, like, if it's a monster, it doesn't exist, but it scares you. But then you discover that it exists. And then you realize it's actually doesn't have power over you. I don't know, that's a really long pole to try. And I've been watching a lot of Avengers lately. Like you said it, you'd name it, you own it, and then you can do the work on and it doesn't hold that control power fear over you because you like facing it head on and, and doing something about it. Yes, I think even though so many moms are now talking about mom guilt in a way that's really supportive and compassionate, there still is a huge part of the world that isn't talking about it. And that's laying those old narratives on motherhood. So I think it's really important for moms to find their people who can support them, and who can align with the type of authenticity that lets you feel guilty and supports you in your guilt and helps you to not feel alone and to work through it. Because if you're an authentic person, in an inauthentic system, it's gonna feel really invalidating and it's gonna, it's gonna crush you in you're not going to continue to express that because it's, it's not being validated. You just have to feel like you're pushed down. Yeah, that's really important. Isn't it about finding, finding the people that share your views? And have that, again, that authenticity? It's keep coming back to that word, but it's so true, isn't it? Yes. And I think there's a lot there about aligned relationships. You know, people like the buzzwords like toxic relationships, or that person's a narcissist or whatever. But if you just take all the labels away, and it's just about alignment or misalignment, you know, it doesn't make anyone bad or wrong. It just makes them misaligned with you. So then you go find your people who you can be more aligned with so that you have that congruence. See and that feeling of resonance when you're with people who actually see you and support you for who you are not for some charade that you're pretending to uphold. Yeah. Pardon me? That is That is so true. What sort of role do you feel like social media has to play in all this sort of guilt driving and judgment sort of thing? I think it's kind of the both sides of the coin, I think you can find that support and that authenticity. I think there's people like you and like me who are on social media trying to spread this compassion and this authenticity. And I think you can easily get down the rabbit hole of really narrow minded, rigid thinking that is related to old narratives and a lot of guilt and shame. So I think you have to be discerning with social media. Yeah, it's that same thing, as in real life is in finding those people, finding your tribe, and following the people that you don't allied with. Right, yeah. And I also think it's important to remember that what you see on social media isn't always the truth. It's hardly ever the truth. So it's everyone that you see on social media is smiling with their new baby, and they look so happy. I think it's important to remind yourself like, maybe that's partially true. But what am I not seeing about what's hard for this person, and just know that the snapshots on Facebook or Instagram are just snapshots there, they don't have depth of reality. And if you want more depth of reality, find real live humans to go spend time with instead of social media feeds. Yeah, that's really, really good advice. Because there are a lot of rabbit holes to fall down into, on social media. I find in terms of unfollowing, I'll go through phases where I felt I'll be on a different sort of tracks or follow a lot of people in that sort of area. And then all of a sudden, one day, I'll just go, Ah, no, I don't want that anymore. And I will just go through and unfollow, unfollow, and then another day, I'll find something. It's really interesting how you like, depending how your thoughts have evolved, you know, maybe you've been surrounding yourself with people that have allowed you to see things in a different way or opens your mind to a different way of thinking and then you go, Oh, actually, that stuff doesn't feel right anymore. You know, it's there's nothing wrong with doing that. Yes, that's clearing, right? So when we grow and we learn new things, we see the world through a new way, we naturally need to let go of what no longer aligns, so that we can create space for what does align, because you can't just fill yourself and your social media feed endlessly, you have to clear to let in. I once heard, I've had a few readings with psychic mediums over the years. And one of my favorites, he told me, you only have a certain amount of room in your backpack. So you know, you have to take out things sometimes to be able to fit those new things in. So I sort of use that sort of visual analogy that, you know, you can only carry so much. I love that. And it's important to be discerning. Yeah, absolutely. The other topic about identity and you touched on it. When you were talking about writing your book when your son was three months old. Let's just talk about that a bit more. So that shift that we go through. And I everyone feels this differently, too, which is awesome. Which, you know, we talked about earlier, everyone's motherhood journey is so different. Personally, the feelings you were feeling, can you sort of share a bit more about that? About what felt hard at that time? Yeah. And I guess about how, if you felt like, you know, your previous say, your previous self, you're still the same person. But, you know, you were changing into this, this mother role. How that sort of felt that transition? Oh, yes. Well, I think what made it so hard was that it was so abrupt that you know, during pregnancy, I was so happy. I loved with both of my pregnancies. It felt like an immensely spiritual experience. I felt like a vessel I felt like oh my gosh, like if the aliens could see how we make people they would be amazed. It's just so it's incredible. So even when I felt nauseous or, you know, when I was 30 pounds heavier than I was used to being, I was like, This is amazing. Yeah, I had such a great experience. And then, right at the end of my pregnancy with my son with my firstborn, our midwife found out that he was breech. And they were like, Oh, well, we're gonna have to flip this baby. And I'm like, what is that a thing. And so I tend to get very urgent about, like, when something is abnormal, medically, I just have my own anxiety triggers around health and medical stuff. And so I was like, Okay, we gotta flip this baby. And it pregnancy stopped being enjoyable, and it started feeling stressful. And I kid you not, I read somewhere that I was supposed to do a handstand and go upside down in a swimming pool to turn my baby. So if you can imagine someone at eight months pregnant, like trying to do a handstand, in the swimming pool, in like, community swimming pool with all of these people, it was humiliating. But I was so committed, I'm like, You're gonna turn this baby. Like, it didn't work, you know, it's such a silly thing. And so I tried that I did Chinese Chinese medicine called moxibustion. And I was, it's like this little, like a charcoal lit charcoal thing that you put close to a chakra. And it energetically is supposed to help, whatever it didn't do it. But what it did do is it triggered labor. And so I went into labor, just in this really stressful state of being like, my baby's not coming out the way I want my baby to come out. So that went into a birth, that was a cesarean after I was really attached to the idea of a vaginal birth. And then my baby was born with a bilateral pneumothorax, which is a puncture in each of his lungs. And so he had to go to NICU and we didn't get to bond. And I didn't get to hold him. And I was like, strapped down on a table with a open surgical wound. And it was just so different than what I envisioned. And so I was set up for motherhood, like with this trauma. And so I think, I actually think now, you know, nine years later, I look back and I'm like, Well, I learned my first lesson of motherhood, right off the bat, that I'm not in control of everything anymore. And my rigid thinking and my attachment to what I want and how I want it needs to soften and it needs to be more flexible. And so that was probably the hardest transition for me was that it was just this very abrupt sort of message that was in my face, like you are not in control. And you have got to learn how to be more flexible. Just while you're saying that I'm getting goosebumps, because that literally feels like the message that I was given. similar sort of, you know, I had all these expectations I had my first baby was a vaginal birth, but he was very quick. So I had this idea that this time my waters would break, everything would be, you know, planned and go to nap, we had a very traumatic scenario. And same thing, he was a, he was very tiny. But he, he was fully developed. But he was very tiny. Because it turned out my placenta had stopped working after 26 weeks, and no one don't know how no one discovered it. So then he was away from me for a while. So I had this, I just kept like, right from the beginning, he had to have formula. So that control I had in my last, my last baby, that I had to feed him against all odds, I was going to feed this child that was taken away from me. So it was like, Okay, you are really not in control of this. And you you're being forced to let go of these, you know, these beliefs that you are holding on to. And then when I got him back, I just had these, I just kept hearing in my head, just keep him close, keep him close. So I would just sit and hold him and nurse him and he'd sleep and I'd miss him. And it just was completely different to my first child. And I'm so glad that I was thrown all those curveballs because it just made me completely relaxed and and go, there is no routine, there is no predictability. And I was happy with that. And it was weird because I've never been happy with that. Like when I was five years old, on my first gig performing on stage, it was just at a school Christmas concert. The teacher held the microphone for me and she wasn't holding it in the right spot. So I pulled it closer. You know, this has been me my whole life. It's good. Try it Hmm, yeah, very suddenly and violently, and traumatically. That was all taken away from me. And I'm so grateful for that. Now, you know, in hindsight, the lessons that I've learned, although at the time was pretty full on that, you know, I've always, I've always felt like the, like our babies, teach us the lessons that we would not learn from anyone else, we would not let anyone else get close enough and honest and vulnerable enough as we let our children get to us. And so some of our biggest issues will never come up for healing. If our kids don't reflect them back to us, you know, and control is a really big one for a lot of moms. And it's really healing to be able to finally sort of unpack it and work through the layers. It's amazing, isn't it? Because I save the children choose us for the lessons we have to learn in this life. So it's prevalent? Yeah, I think we choose our families. So talking more about yourself in the work that you're doing? Can you share what you've sort of got coming up or anything you want to share about the work that you're doing? Yes, I actually have a huge movement that I am in right now with my business, I am in the process of transforming my private therapy practice into a large scale mental health platform called the Radiant Life project. And the Radiant Life project is all about helping people find that radiance, and that glow. That is part of our human birthright. But we forget, and we get stuck in our mental illnesses, and we get stuck on autopilot. And so this is about really getting unstuck, whether you're a mother, whether you're not a mother, whether you're a man or a woman, or non binary, anyone, this is about lighting your life up from the inside out and feeling full and resourced. Not without challenges in your life, but with the challenges and feeling empowered to live as a whole person. So I have a new book that I'm working on, that's almost ready to go to publishing called the Radiant Life project. And it's a big download of my 15 plus years of clinical experience, plus some of my own personal journey. And I've also got some courses coming up that will be available on my website. And I'll be offering retreats and workshops that are all geared toward helping people build a radiant life. Wow, that sounds awesome. I'm really excited for you. That's fantastic. Thank you, I am so excited by it, I actually took a three month sabbatical from my therapy practice because I got really burned out working sort of on the frontlines as a mental health person in the pandemic. And I thought I was just going to spend my sabbatical like curled up in bed watching movies, but actually, I have felt so energized and so excited about the Radiant Life project that I am just writing, and building and creating and making art and talking to people like you and it feels, talk about alignment, it feels very aligned. That's wonderful. I can just see your face like literally radiant, as you told me about it. It's just wonderful. Thank you. So share with us, what's the name of your website where people can best find you and find out more information. Yes, the website is the Radiant Life project.com. And you can also follow me on Instagram at the Radiant Life project. I'm I'm posting reels every other day with little therapeutic tidbits and kind of helpful, helpful little gems for people. And I have a free newsletter that I'm sending out once a month that gives inspirations and little offerings and keeps people up to date with my new releases and the progress of my book. So if you want to be part of my mailing list, you can sign up for my newsletter on my website, which is the Radiant Life project.com And that's probably the best way to reach me. Awesome. I'm glad you mentioned about your Instagram because I do enjoy your reels. And there's something very soothing about your voice too. I must say when you're sharing you know little tips about I think one was how you had to give a good apology like the three steps and there was another one about boundaries that I really liked. But the way you present them is just so it makes To stop scrolling and just go, ah, like, it's just so calming. And I don't know really connective, if that's not the word, but you know what I mean? Like, it's, again, it feels like you're right there, you're talking, you're talking to me. And you're saying, Allison, this is this is a thing you should be listening to. Thank you. That is my intention. And I am trying to, I'm trying to give away free support for people and Instagram as a great resource for people. And so I really am, you know, these aren't like promotional videos that I'm trying to hook people, I'm really just trying to give away knowledge that people can use to support themselves. Because the Radiant Life project is not about using anyone else as a crutch or expecting anyone else to rescue you. It's about doing it from the inside out. And, and being so radiant, that it extends through and beyond you and affects the world. Absolutely. We need to sit there about doing the work yourself. And there's no one's going to do it for you. When I was in the real depths of my postnatal depression, with my second child, I had that exact feeling I had, and it was incredibly daunting, and scary. But on the other hand, it was so empowering, it was like, no one can help me, and a fearful thing, but then it was like, Uh, no one can help me because I'm capable of doing this, I can do this. So it was like, flicking the switch. It's, it's scary, when you know, you've got to do it yourself. And when you're not in a great place, you know, in your own head, they can feel like the worst news in the world. Like, literally, you want someone to save you, you want someone to fix you. But working with someone like yourself, you know, a trained professional, you will have assistants, but at the end of the day, it is you that goes deep inside you and changes, you know, whether it's, you know, the habits or the way you think about you yourself, think about the world, all that sort of stuff is on you. And I think I learned that during my sabbatical it, it took me 15 years of clinical practice to realize that, oh, I don't want these people to need me, I want these people to not need me. Yo, now I'll be going back to this Radiant Life project with the new perspective of I'm here as a guide and as a supportive resource. But ultimately, this is your show. This is your life. So reclaim it. Yeah, let's see. So well said I love that. And also just a point I wanted to mention, you are trained and experienced, like you said, 15 years of clinical experience, it really annoys me when I see people on Instagram sprouting out do this, do that, whatever. And they know they have none of that. So just to point out the you actually know things. Thank you. You're right, there are a lot of snake oil salesmen out there. So make sure you know as people are being discerning about aligned relationships and the right resources, make sure that the support that you receive is from credible places. All right, well, I'll let you lead the way, Kate with this reading using your beautiful deck. Okay, thank you. So what I always do with this is, I just want the cards to know that this is for you and not me. So I just sort of say to the cards. This is a reading for Alison. Okay, so would you like to stick with your your three card? Pull? You do whatever feels right over there. But I'm gonna leave it up to you. Do you have any specific questions or any specific? Anything that's on your mind that you're curious about? Look, I'd like to just know that where I'm at right now I'm actually feeling because I see my full disclosure, I see my therapist monthly. So I do a lot of work. And I feel like right at this moment in time, I actually had a mental health check with my doctor this morning. And you know, we have this thing over here called a I think it's called K 10. And you check, no, based on the last four weeks, have you experienced different emotions or situations. And mine was the lowest score I think it's ever been ever so right now I'm going really good. So I guess I just like, you know, some feedback on that, I suppose. Yes, that's perfect. How about like, why are you feeling so well? What's working? Yeah, And what are some areas of? Oh, I got it. Okay, what's working? What is an area of growth that you can work through now that you have so much strength? And I'm wondering if maybe there was something to let go of now. So maybe I'll pull three. Yep, that sounds awesome. Okay, so the first one is Why are you feeling so good? Okay, and the second one is what area of growth feels accessible now that you're so resourced? Okay, and the third one is, what can you let go of? What do you no longer need? All right. So I'll give you these three. And then if we need an additional minute, sometimes we need one more card. So we'll see. So why are you feeling so good. This is the card that I pulled. And this is the card of companionship, this is a relational card. And for you, this could mean anything from like, either not being codependent, like just coexisting peacefully with people or it could mean that you have a new kind of support or a connection that's really sustaining and filling you up. But this is about kind of like peaceful coexistence and relationships. Yeah. And I'll screenshot these these cards and put them in the show notes for everyone. But it's, it's a pair of Dragon is it to dragonflies and flowers, and then color that is my color, that background? That's like that aqua, sort of It's a mixture between throat chakra and the heart chakra. It's kind of that that really beautiful Aqua. Love that. That's beautiful, by the way. Thank you. Okay, so number two, now that you're in a strong place, what work can you do? So this is the card that's about being both rooted, and also free. So the work now is kind of working with this binary that you don't have to be so grounded that you don't fly, and you don't have to be so airy, that you're ungrounded. So the work now is about having both Hmm. It's finding that balance, isn't that? Which kind of Yeah, you should, one sorry to cut you off. I'm usually one way or the other, I made the Full Tilt one way or nothing. So this card is telling you that now that you're in such a strong place in your life, it's time for you to kind of have a fusion of Mind Body Spirit, and not be only in one or the other. Yep, yeah. So where can you can you describe that? That beautiful picture? Fairly? Yes. So this is a an image of a figure that has sort of golden energy coming in through the crown chakra at the top of their head and moving through the body, and actually growing roots that reach down into the earth all the way down to sort of the molten lava core where there are pure crystalline energies and resources. And the figure also has large wings that are open and expanding and kind of taking off. Yeah, I have a thing with wings, we fly with feathers, I collect a lot of flat Earth, this flower girl articulates a lot of flowers, too. But wings is a big thing for me. Yes, I also love wings, well, then you're gonna like this one, too. So your third part, which is about what to let go of. This is an image that's about like magical thinking, this is about I think what this message is, is that you should let go of the sort of spiritual bypassing of avoiding things by being too kind of too spiritual, and not actually facing what's real. There is magic in the world. And there is spirituality in the world. And we can also use them as avoidance mechanisms. So I think that this card is asking you to release that. Hmm, that definitely makes sense. I love how you're, you're female, I guess presuming it's a female figure there has got the wing on one side. And then it's sort of like it's reality, and, and sort of the spiritual world sort of shining one figure and if that makes sense, and the columns and it's similar to your second card with sort of a feeling of grounding, but also flying at the same time. And I think that's part of the message with With when you don't want to let go of all of your magic, you don't want to let go of your spirituality that's important. You just want to let go of the parts that are keeping you from doing the work you need to do. Hmm, yeah, that makes sense. It's almost like I can use it as a justification to avoid things. I think you just said that. Yeah. Yes. John Wellwood has a term called spiritual bypassing. And it is just all about how we use spirituality to avoid things. And it's not that's not a healthy use of spirituality. Yeah. I love that. So do you need do you need another car? Do you feel like there's any anything lingering? No, I don't actually, I feel like that's, that's actually incredibly spot on. That's, and it's really not, I've always felt really reassured after having cards pulled like, it just feels like a nice warm hug from the universe. And, you know, there's, there's never, I don't know, all the all the decks I've ever read. If they want to tell you, you know, to improve on something, it's always in a kind way, you know, they're never gonna pound you on the head with a with a horrible, you know, mean thing. But you know, they're looking after. So if there's things I need to say, they'll tell us, you know? Yes, I talk about it as like the shadow side and the sunny side where everything has the shadow like Carl Jung talked about in his in his groundbreaking psychological work. But there's a dark side to everything. But there's also a bright side to everything. And if you can find the place where you can hold both and glean the gifts from both than that's like holistic, balanced living, right is not getting too lost in the shadows or too blinded by the light. It's getting that union the Yang sort of just it's balanced. Yes. Balance. Yes. Oh, look, thank you. That is just, ah, I feel very special. And everyone listening, you should feel special, because that's the very first time we've ever had a reading on the podcast. So thank you, Kate, for sharing that with us. You're welcome. And you'll be can people purchase your cards from your website as well? Yes. So at the Radiant Life project.com There's a page where you can purchase the deck, you could purchase the book, the authentic Mother, you can also purchase prints of my artwork. Oh, lovely. Excellent on thank you I have just had a such a lovely morning chatting to you. Thank you so much for coming on. It's just so welcome. I've enjoyed it as well. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Zach Mander Australian comedian + announcer S4Ep103 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts In the second of my Father's Day special podcast episodes. I welcome Zach Mander, a comedian, radio announcer and father of 2 from Brisbane Australia. Zach has hosted national radio shows on stations such as 2Day FM and FOX FM and specialises in clever and offbeat content. He is the self proclaimed 'Bluey detective delving in to the much loved Aussie kids show and providing witty observations. If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission thanks to my APRA AMCOS mini online license. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes .....

Julia Reader South Australian water colour and acrylic artist and art educator S1 Ep21 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Julia Reader is a watercolour and acrylic artist, an art educator from Mount Gambier South Australia, and a mum of one. Coming from a background in graphic design, Julia is a firm believer in following your heart, being open to new opportunities and that everything happens at the right time. We chat about how her perfectionist trait stifled her creativity, how she used her art as a therapy tool to work through her control issues, letting go of your expectations, not just in art but in life, and allowing mums feel all the feelings they are experiencing, good and bad, without judgement. **This episode contains discussion around infertility, post natal depression and panic attacks** Connect with Julia on her website and instagram Julia's December Workshop details Follow along with The Portrait Project here Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health and how children manifest in their heart. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with the music played, and a link to find the podcast on Instagram. Following music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone dig people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship that traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Julia reader. Julia is a watercolor and acrylic artist, graphic designer and art educator from Mount Gambier, South Australia, and a mom of one. Julia is a firm believer in following your heart being open to new opportunities, and that everything happens at the right time. We chat today about how her perfectionist traits stifled her creativity, how she used her art as a therapy tool to work through her control issues. Letting go of your expectations, not just in art, but in life, and allowing mums to feel all the feelings they're experiencing good and bad without judgment. This episode contains discussions around infertility, postnatal depression and panic attacks. Today, I'd love to welcome to the podcast Julia reader. Thanks so much for coming on, Julia. Thanks for having me, Allison. Yeah, it's a pleasure. Another hometown assets, which I'm really excited to chat to you. You you're a painter, and do drawing as well. What what sort of mediums do you work with mainly? So I primarily work with watercolor? I have been dabbling in a bit of acrylic. They're the main things that I use. Yeah. Obviously, watercolor for most, I think that's probably what I'm probably most known for. But yeah, like, I really love acrylic, too, because it's sort of like the polar opposite to watercolor, you can paint over things if you stuff them up. But with watercolor, it's not so much the same. So in that respect there, like almost two completely different ways of working. And I like to challenge myself sort of at both ends of the spectrum. Yeah, right. So how did you first get into painting? That's a really good question. I teach watercolor classes. And I say to people that I can never actually remember the first day, or the first time that I picked up a paintbrush with watercolor and started painting. Yeah, I do remember doing a like a little watercolor painting for an exhibition. And I was invited to be part of an exhibition for a local group called the soul sisters collective, which is actually a group that I'm now a part of. But I yeah, I remember doing this little watercolor painting, I remember thinking that it was absolutely terrible. But it was what I did. And I was willing to frame it and put it up on the wall. And then there was probably like, a few years after that, that I didn't touch anything watercolor related. And then yeah, somehow I fell back into it. And I really have no idea how it started. I'd like I can't even tell you whether I was at home or sitting at my office. But it was just something that really just evolved very naturally. You know, there was a lot of practicing a lot of watching YouTube, because I am self taught. So there was just really lots of watching videos, looking at how people used it. And then from there it was, I guess. Consistency is what I always say is like, it's the game changer for I think anything if we're consistent with something, then we will see the results. But yeah, it was just a case of yeah, just painting, you know, you might want to make just once a week and then as I started to sort of see an improvement and maybe had a little bit more time. I would paint a couple of times a week and then there was a couple of points where I was doing like a painting a day. And I think I think I started doing that when Jack was about Eating. No, he wasn't he, he was only 10 months old. And I looked back on it. And I just think like, that was just such a crazy thing for me to commit to. Actually, it was actually not a painting a day, it was a project called the 100 Day project. So it was 100 days of painting. And obviously, I didn't do it over 100 days, it probably went to like 150 days, I did 100 paintings. And I think I bombed out at about 75 with Jack, because it was just too much. And I was starting to get to a point where I was really not enjoying it as much. Because there was a lot of pressure for me to sort of put something out on my social media. But yeah, yeah, just a natural level of illusion, evolution sorry, where I just went from not really touching it to wanting to play paint with it all the time. Developing a really a real love for it. And I think that's just sort of where it's that love has led me to where I am today with watercolor in particular. Yeah. So you said what's kind of happening at the moment with you with the acrylics, you sort of discovered this new thing? And you're sort of learning and similar kind of, sort of pricing? So yeah, I think I mean, look, I've still got a huge amount to learn with watercolor like, I would never like, yeah, I guess I know that I've got so much to develop as far as watercolor goes, it's such a technical medium. But yeah, I found acrylic and acrylics, almost like the sort of playful thing that I can do on the side that still creative. And if, if I don't do it very well, I can literally paint over it. And I can start again. And let me tell you, I have got canvases here that have got like about five or six paintings that have been painted over, you know, so many times, and like there's even paintings that people have purchased from me recently. And they would have no idea that there's actually three paintings that they've actually purchased. Maybe one day if I ever get rich and famous, which is really not the intention. Maybe maybe those people one day will discover that there's like all these hidden artworks underneath the one that they purchased maybe acrylic is I just find it like it's sort of like reversible. So like if I if I do something wrong, I can literally let it dry and come back and paint over that section. watercolors just not you can't do that. So yeah, it's a little bit strange, I guess that you've got like these two different mediums that that work in two completely different ways. Yeah, I'm drawn to how each of them work individually. And I think there's some days where I feel like I want that challenge of watercolor. And then there's days when I feel like I just need the ease of acrylic. So but yeah, look, acrylics, definitely something that I enjoy. So I can see that that's probably something that I'll continue to do. And for me, the moment is just working out how I bring the two together. So that my body of work looks, I guess cohesive, obviously, because they're two different things. They look different. I can achieve different things with each medium. So I can do things with perhaps acrylic that I couldn't do with watercolor. So they sort of take on a life of their own. Yeah, that mentally for me at the moment is just working out how I can sort of bring the three together. And when somebody sees that particular work, they can say, oh, yeah, that's Julia's work. Whereas at the moment, I feel like there's probably a bit of a divide. So I'm just going through that at the moment trying to work out how to sort of gel the two. So yeah, when you say that, I think yeah, you've got definitely a recognizable watercolor style, like I think, certainly anyone local. And I mean, I'm not in the art world at all. So I'm not sure how, yeah, white things spread, but certainly anyone in the mound that would see that would go oh, that's Julius, which is really cool. Then quite a few of my walk can't quite get it around for it. So I've got my little collection of things. And then I've got my kids stuff behind me, which is, you know, a mishmash of stuff, but I love and don't look, I'm not showing you the other side because that's absolutely love because I can't draw I can't do that. I love having those sort of things around me. They sort of inspire me creatively create creatively and the other the other things that I do so yeah, thanks. You for being awesome at supporting me so going back to the beginning, you talked about the soul sisters collective when you created your first watercolor. So what sort of creating or work were you doing at that stage? So back then, and I'm just going to pull a year out, I think that was about 2015. It could have been it could have been a year earlier or so. So back then, my creativity was my graphic design. Right, that was really all it was at that point. I wasn't painting. Like I wasn't, yeah, I just wasn't doing anything other than graphic design at that point. And I was actually quite at that point, I was really fulfilled in my graphic design career, which is something that I'm like, I'm still doing it today. It's still of my business. But I think, yeah, I was just in need of something else. And that's sort of when the painting started to happen. But yeah, back in 2015, it was just, I was a graphic designer, I was friends with a lot of the people that were in the soul sisters collective, which are all born at the time were all, like, sole traders working for themselves all female in, in our Gambia. So yeah, it was a real honor to be able to join their exhibition, because like, I was really quiet. sort of been aware of all of those people, because they were all sort of doing this business for themselves. And at that point in time, I never saw myself owning my own business. So yeah, it was really lovely to be able to join them. But like I was highly critical of the work that I put out. Obviously, I wasn't, I wouldn't have called myself a painter or anything at that point. I was literally just dabbling in this watercolor that I must have found somewhere because I can't even I don't even think I probably have the original watercolor that I was using on that particular painting. And yeah, just really highly critical of what I did. I've still got hanging on my wall here, so it can't be that bad. Yeah, at the time, I was just really honored to be a part of the exhibition. But I was also like, yeah, not not loving anything that I did at that point. So yeah. Sort of reaching back in your graphic design, how did you get into that? Was that something you've did at school, or you've always been sort of into that sort of stuff? Yeah, I've always been quite creative. Even as a child. I, I've always gravitated towards the arts. I remember having a science teacher who just used to tell me that I was not going to get anywhere with art. And I should just apply myself in his science lessons, because this is where it was at. I know, like, you know, as a kid, I think I when I say a kid, I was probably like, 1616 when he was saying this? Yeah, I always just, I just never wanted to apply myself in math, science or anything. And I really do believe that we've got like a brain for creativity. And we've got a brain for all those really sort of technical subjects. I really enjoyed English, I loved creative writing. So anything that had an element of creativity where I could explore, like, my ideas, and I could express myself in some way. Were the subjects that I was drawn to, in saying that I was never like, into drama or anything like that. But um, yeah, I was very much into art. I did art I did design, I had a very supportive design teacher. And when I first started design, like he really liked, fostered an interest in my work. And I think from there I think I always knew that I was going to be a graphic designer. I had a period where I thought I would be an architect. But yeah, I got into sort of my, my later years of secondary school and I knew that graphic design was where I was headed. I got to year 11 Sorry, year 12 And the workload was just like intense. And I decided to split my YouTube up over two years. So I could really focus on my design. And I can't remember what my final grade was in design that I think it was like nine out of 20 or something. There was some like, technical thing that stopped me from getting the 20. But anyway, doesn't really got moderated down because the state wasn't good. Yeah, that's right. And so from there, I actually studied through TAFE. And it was such a fantastic. It was such a fantastic way to learn because it was so hands on. And so I did my first year in Mount Gambia, I did my second year in Adelaide, and I lived with a couple of girls who one I'm still very good friends with today are actually friends with both of them today. But one, like our friendship has just continued on. And we both have very similar interests, even today. And we're all two of us are still graphic designers. The other isn't. But yeah, it was such a great experience. I lived with some people that were studying graphic design through university. And so I got to see how the two courses compared and I was just really happy with choosing that one. Because I think if I was sitting in a lecture theatre learning these things day in and day out, it would I would have lost interest I needed to like, see how it worked practically in a, like a specific setting. And I got to do that. So yeah, I still very much love graphic design. But I'm just understanding that there's so much more to what I can offer. Yeah, and yeah, I totally recommend graphic design to anyone out there is still I think it's still a fairly popular sort of choice for younger people. Yeah, that especially today, this always social media, and everyone's creating images for promotion. And these little, little, what do they call tiles? You know, on the Instagram? Oh, yeah. Like, it's Yeah, Canvas, definitely. Like, I think it's definitely got a place. And yeah, like just having the skills of graphic design is like really helpful for me, even in my art business, and being able to promote myself and keep sort of a consistent theme amongst my look and creating that brand. So there's like huge benefits to having that knowledge behind me. And I can see that it's probably something that I'll eat depending on, you know, how my career plays out. And, you know, I don't tie myself down to anything. I feel like my options are always open with what I could be. But I can see that that skill set that I've developed as a graphic designer will certainly carry through I think probably every job that I do. You've got that understanding of it is yeah, yeah, for sure. There's so much there's so much to it. It's such a broad, broad job. And every time people say to me, or what do you do? And it's like, oh, gosh, where do I start? Like, really varied? Which I love so much. Like, there's someone like me that felt like I can't I always thought to be good at art, you had to be able to draw something that looked like the thing you were drawing. That was my thing in my head. And because I couldn't do that. I thought I can't do it. But then when I I knew nothing about mediums, different texts, different. Whatever's paints, when I did that watercolor, I was like, Oh, well, you can do whatever you want. Like it just I just I had no boundaries, no barriers. It just became this amazing. I don't know, just even the way you got us to practice doing circles and learning. Like you said before, it's so technical, how different like amounts of water on your brush, create different things and just completely opened my eyes. I'd never looked at things that way. I didn't understand things. So I highly recommend it to anybody that doesn't know anything. I say joy because it's amazing. Yeah, yeah, it's, um, I think like, in most things in our lives, we probably like have a set of expectations on how we need to do that thing. and like, that includes everything from parenting down to like, I don't know how you hang your washing on the line. You know, like, we've got a set way we think things need to be done. And what I love about teaching watercolor is just giving people an opportunity to use creativity. And a lot of the times it's creativity that people didn't think they ever had. So I really believe that every person on this earth has got an element of creativity in them, I don't think we can survive if we don't. So, you know, it's just giving yourself permission to be able to, to use it. giving yourself time and also taking away the the expectation that you need to be good at it. Because it's unrealistic. So I think that if, if I had picked up watercolor on that first day that I did, and I expected to paint this amazing painting, and I didn't achieve it, I would never have picked it up again. But I gave myself some grace. And you know, whether I did that, I probably did it subconsciously, I probably didn't make the decision to go easy on yourself, Julia. But I just, I just went with almost like a childlike playful, you know, just go and see what it can do. And then, you know, I obviously enjoyed it. I didn't have I didn't feel like I failed. And then I could come back again and try again and then come back again and try again. And and then would you believe it? I've liked building this skill set, that's actually starting to make sense. And I'm getting a better understanding of the medium. So in the workshops, that's like, one of the first things I say is, and I had a workshop, like literally on Friday night, and I said to the girls there if if you have like any degree of OCD, like trying to like perfectionism control issues, watercolor watercolor will let you know, you'll, you'll get to a point where you just like the frustration will be there and it will test you. So like, you know what I was totally in that category. I was. Yeah, like, probably my, my need to control things was like, super highlighted when I when I had a newborn, because my control was, I couldn't control this little human. And, you know, it was months and months of me. You know, just trying to trying to get into trying to create a routine that fit in with me. And it all went terribly pear shaped like Christmas have must have been 2017 Duck was six months old. And like I literally had a meltdown on Christmas Day, because I think it was just I put such huge expectations on myself for that whole six months. And then Christmas day came and I knew that I had to be here and I had to be there and then had to fit in a sleep here. And I was very like, and I still I still am today. I'm still quite routine base. And like I think my son actually needs that sort of routine too. But certainly like that first six months was just a complete undoing. And I got to Christmas day and I just literally had actually call it a panic attack. When I look back now I really found it very hard to read. And my thoughts were like, I could not like line up. The first thing I should do the next thing to the next thing. And I just remember feeling like I was just losing my mind. And so Christmas Day was like a massive unraveling for me. And it also was the biggest highlight of I actually have to surrender, like and surrender was like the biggest word. It's probably the biggest word that I've adopted or a principle that I've adopted through my whole parenthood so Jack's only for now. And I'm still learning how to surrender like, I still I think I've I think I was like, almost forced to do it back at that six month point on Christmas Day. But then I still have these moments where I'm like, surrender Juliet. Like you can't control everything. You know, everything will happen as it's meant to. It's a trust. It's just having faith that it's all you You know, evolving as it's meant to. But yeah, but just going back to the board call workshops, the control. Yeah, it's definitely something that watercolor will highlight did a couple of like painting a day for I think I've done it like two or three months now, where I've just picked a month, and then I've painted something like maybe one particular subject, or I've just painted anything I want one day each month. And I did a lot of that because, yeah, I had this like perfectionist trait, which really stifled my creativity. And it was just really good to be able to commit to something and like, let everybody know that this was this thing that I was going to do. So I was being held accountable by people, because I literally would have people message me and say, Oh, hi, I didn't see your painting today. Which is great, because like, this is what I this is what I needed. Painting every day meant that I didn't actually have time to be perfect. Sometimes I only had five minutes. Yep, some days, I might have had a couple of hours. And so it was a really great way of like breaking that that thought pattern of you have to get this right, because I could I could see that that was an issue. And I think just flicking right back to that day that I had a meltdown. It was you know, it was highlighted to me back then that I had this tendency to want to get everything right and have everything work perfectly in this certain way. And so then, as I was becoming more and more aware of that, as I parented as I painted, I was putting myself in positions that I could really like challenge that way of thinking. And so these these months that I would paint every day really sort of reversed my thinking around that. And so now when I go and teach watercolor, it's the probably the main thing that I try and get across is, like, let go of your expectations. And like this is not just painting, I think this can just go right across the board. We we really are super hard on ourselves. And I think let me know, I'm talking about my experience here. But I have spoken to so many other mothers and we all fall in this trap of you know, we've just got to get it right. And you know, we need to have control. And I just don't think it's fair on ourselves. I don't think it's reasonable. And it's not fair on our children either. Because they're their own little people. And they're not supposed to be controlled to the nth degree like, so. Yeah, what a journey it's been. Let me tell you, it's like you created your own form of therapy. Like you worked out. Yeah, you needed to do you used your art as that, that tool? Yeah, that's quite incredible. I think, um, I think, like, I'm such a believer in, you know, people come into our lives as they're supposed to experiences come in, I think children come into our lives when they're supposed to. And, like, I've always had a real trust that I would be given the things that I need to get me through at the time. And painting, especially watercolor is like highly therapeutic. And I had a girl sitting next to me on Friday night. And she said I would pay to just come here and watch you put the paint on the paper. Because it's like she said I'm mesmerized by it. As and I've heard this by so many people and I even do this when I watch other people painting. So it's not just the people who have never seen watercolor be used before get like in a trance. Yeah, watching being painted. It's me watching and I know I've painted enough now to like, yeah, if I watch somebody painting, I can get really just really sucked in and just watch it. There's a huge therapeutic benefit to I'll just say watercolor because that's what I know. And it's it's also just like sort of that flowing sort of medium. So I think, yeah, certainly something that I've considered is like, actually studying art therapy, because I think, yeah, we're gonna die in an age where I think it's probably needed. Like, don't don't probably think it's needed. It's needed. So, yeah, yeah, you bring up about watching people, I love watching people on Instagram, I'll just watch people paint. Like, I love it so much. It's like, it started started off. I think it's an interesting to work out how people make things from not having any understanding of, of how people create art, and really, the processes. And then yeah, like, I love it, when people post their actual videos of them painting. It's like a, like a meditation, I suppose you just get lost in it. And it's just, it gives you something. It's just incredible. I don't quite know how to explain it. But I don't know. It's just a beautiful thing to witness. And then I'll like write a comment on someone's Oh, I love love watching you pay. And there'll be like, Oh, I wasn't sure if I should share it or not. You know, people feel that. I don't know that nervousness about putting it out there because I suppose they feel judged. I don't know if that's the right word. But there. Yeah, but that I don't think they realize how much people get out of it, you know, tiny, tiny little thing that they share, like 30 seconds or a minute or whatever. Yeah, it's awesome. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's definitely something that I've noticed anytime I paint, post anything live, like, on live, but you know, if I do like a time lapse of a painting or something, I can always guarantee that someone will say, I just loved watching that. And it might not be that they loved the actual painting or Yeah, the subject or whatever, they just love watching the paint go on the paper. So yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty special actually feel quite privileged to be able to one sort of have an understanding of watercolor, because it is something that takes me to time. And I'm also very privileged to be able to pass that on to people. And I just love the fact that I have people that come back, and come back and come back to these workshops. So if there was any sort of, if I needed any sign that I was sort of doing the right thing, it's just that people come back and they want to keep learning and, you know, putting themselves in a position where they can try this out so. With your teaching, did you find any sort of challenges in that? Or did you sort of jump into it like yet? I'm really, I want to share I don't have any sort of hang ups about, you know, being in front of a crowd? Like, did it come to you really naturally? Or did you have any sort of challenges? Um, I think like, probably just nervousness, but I think that would be pretty normal. Next, anyone? The actual teaching side of it was so just, I'll just take one step backwards. I'm an I'm one of these people that overthink everything. I am super analytical. So I can almost talk myself into something and out of something in the same flight thought, yeah, yeah. And so the way that the workshops came about was I think I might have put up a video of me planning something. And someone said, Oh, I'd love for you to teach me how to do that. And then I put up a story on Instagram that just said, is there anyone out there who would like to learn watercolor? And it was like one of those questions, yes or no? And then I got lots of yeses. Yeah. And literally, it all happened within like, a few hours. I think like, this is the beauty of like, when you when you when you sort of done something over and over again, like I've done, I can't count probably how many workshops I've done now. When you look back to like, what was the first like, when did you start doing this? And it's like, oh, it was this. It was just this really flippant decision to put up an Instagram story. And like, that's where it started. It wasn't over thought it wasn't something that I planned for months or years or anything like that. It was just this one really defining moment that was just very organic. Yep. And and it all started from there. And, like, yeah, I just love the fact that I'm here I am, like, a few years down the track still teaching these workshops, still getting people coming to my classes. And yeah, it was just this. Just this really, like, fleeting moment where I was almost like just this change in my direction. Yeah. Yeah. So grateful for that. Yeah. It sort of links in what you were saying before about, you know, believing that things happen at the right time, things will happen. Yeah, you know, it's like, you made that decision. And instantly, it was all opened up for you, because it was like, it's almost like when you manifest something, you know, that. Obviously, you hadn't thought about that for a while. But it's like, it was like, you're ready. It's gonna happen. Now, you know what I mean? It just off it went, it's like, yeah, I love that, too. And I think, you know, you just you follow the things that feel right and good. And I think a lot of that's intuition, which is something that I've, like, worked on for a long, long time. So like, I really do, try and listen to my gut. And I really do try and yeah, just just follow the things that really light me up. You know, I hopefully, like, whether I even listen back to this podcast, my own voice, I don't know. But if I do, I would love to be able to hear the excitement in my voice around watercolor. Because if I was talking about cooking, like it would be different, you wouldn't, you wouldn't pick it up. But I was like, really enjoying this thing. So I'm pretty sure if I could compare the two, you know, and it's that it's that excitement and that joy that comes through in the way you deliver something or the way you talk about it that? Like, they're the things that I want in my life. Yeah. And like I said to you at the start, I don't rule anything out. I don't know where I'll be in five or 10 years time, maybe I won't be teaching watercolor, but maybe I'll like, maybe I'll have an art school. Or maybe I'll be an art therapist, or I just always want to keep chasing the thing that lights me up. Because I think that's when you're really on path. That's when you're really doing the thing that you're supposed to be doing in this lifetime. So yeah, I'll just keep tracing. I love that. It's like you're so open to whatever can come in. And yeah, listening to your intuition and going yeah, actually, I feel like doing that. I'm gonna do that, you know? Yeah, that's brilliant. Yeah, yeah, don't get me wrong, there are days when my head definitely talked a lot and you still have to pay bills, Julio, and you can't do that. You know, it's a slow burn, I think if you just give yourself the the space to entertain the idea at least, then you've sort of like planted a seed and, and whether it grows into something or not, is probably just a matter of time so. So let's talk about Jack. So Jack, please board now. And you mentioned that when he was 10 months old, you made the decision to do your your picture your painting your day. Yes. So how does Jack sort of fit in with your, with your art? Are you able to create while he's there or sort of how does that sort of look on a day to day basis? Yeah. So first six months of, of Jack was pretty much like Groundhog Day. Like I'm not gonna lie, and I'm not gonna sugarcoat parenting. It was bloody hard. Yeah, and I'm very, very self aware person. I didn't go into parenting thinking that was going to be easy but like He literally cracked me open. And like, I'm grateful for that now, but back at the time, I think if I was going to really be completely honest, I probably had postnatal depression and found it very hard asking for help. And I've always been very proud and very independent sort of person. So I felt like I should be able to do this. And if I asked to help others be judged. So the first six months, not a lot, but about 10 months, I think he was probably getting into a routine of better sleep. And I'll just say here that he's like four years old, and still wakes up in the middle of the night. So I'm okay with that. Now, I'm totally okay with that now, because I've surrendered to it. But yeah, like, by 10 months, I think I felt like I needed to, I was trying to claim a piece of myself back. I felt like a given and given and given and it was, it was a real slog. And I wasn't getting a lot of sleep still at 10 months, not getting a lot of sleep. But I think I just needed to try, I knew that I needed to give myself something. But I didn't know. I think it was just the thing that I could see myself able to do at a kitchen table at nighttime. So it was still in my house, I didn't have to go anywhere to do it. And it was therapeutic, like I did enjoy the actual painting side of it. So I definitely, definitely tried it, I got all I did pretty well, I got to 75 days, and then decided I actually made it quite clear. I said to everyone on social media, I can't actually I just can't do this anymore. Like, I actually I'm really proud of the fact that I've got to 75 days, but I can't, like I just can't keep doing it. And it was great, I got a good response. It's like, you know, you've done amazing, we can't believe you've done that with a timer, or baby or whatever. So, after that point, like creating with Jack was just very, very intermittent. It was just, you know, most of the time, if I had a spare couple of hours while he was sleeping, you know, I was actually working like souls back doing my graphic design trying to work within sleep time. So I really wasn't creating a lot at all. Still, like biggest being creative with my, what I call my real job graphic design. But like I wasn't painting, I wasn't like I wasn't, yeah, doing it consistently by any means. Today, as well, I guess, you know, jumping to today's probably cutting out a huge portion of his life. But I think just as he got older, I was able to do a little bit more with him around. But generally now I try and carve out time when I haven't got him or when it might be a weekend and he can be out playing with his dad. And you know, I can sort of just get a mental run on. Like, it's quite hard to explain. I mean, I'm not sure whether it's the same fee, Allison, whether you're writing music, or like producing it or however you do it. But when you're in the zone, you're in the zone, and when you get snapped out like it's very hard to be pulled out of it and then come back in it like and that might just be even like him Jack sticking his head in the door and saying, Hey, Mom, I'm hungry. That can really like snap you out of your like your train of thought. And yeah, like I think that's probably been the trickiest part is when you've got that real creative urge that you just you know that you need to just go in and paint something and you can't do it. So you feeling you get very frustrated and feel a little bit creatively stifled when you can't use that creative energy. And then when you're able to use the creative energy, but you're getting into interrupted. And yeah, and so I think the way that works best for us now is if I just on my own, and I can just do it, and I don't get bothered. And like this is not happening all the time, let me tell you like, but it's amazing. I think it's amazing what you can achieve in a short amount of time when you do have children. Something that might have taken me a few days to achieve like I can literally like do it in a couple like couple of hours. Yeah. So you Learn to use your time very wisely. And you learn to be very intentional with the time that you have. I think so. Yeah, look, it's very much I grab what I can get when I can get it at the moment. Yeah, the time that I can get to create, that's what that's how it works at the moment. But I know down the track, you know, two years time, or kindy, next year, and then school the year after. And I know that a lot of things will open up for me in that in that period of Jack's life. And I don't want to lose sight of like what I've got with him at the moment and the time that I have with him at the moment. So I don't wish I had more time. I'm just taking the time that I've got. Because I know that this is just, this is the season of my life at the moment, and it will change and then it will change again, and it'll all change again. So we'll just continue to do Yeah. Yeah, and you're you're good with change you you like, you know, you're obviously sound like you're accepting that. Do you think that ties into your connection with nature that you, you spend a lot of time, you know, seeing things change? Seeing the leaves change? Seeing, you know? Yeah, I think that that helps. Yeah, I think. I think by nature I like. Yeah, it's probably a little odd really like, because I do like, I do like to know, I do like to know what's in store for me? Yeah, actually, it's really interesting. Yeah, I guess I like an element of control. But for the most part, I'm happy to I'm happy to just move in the direction that feels right. So I think, yeah, yeah, it's a really interesting question. Because I feel like I've probably got a little bit of, like, I've still got an element of control. I think I've probably always had that. But yeah, I'm just, I'm just very trusting of, like, I'm trusting that I'm going to be, I'm going to end up doing the things that I'm supposed to be doing. Have a real fight around it. But yeah, I mean, like, I literally love being out amongst the natural world. Like, it's so grounding for me. And, yeah, I think that probably does play a part in that, like, I see. Like I even said before, it's the season of my life, like, you know, I think I can see that. Like, we're all not meant to be doing the same things. Like every day, I go through phases where I want to be really, really creative. And then I go through like, a social media hiatus where I do not post anything, and like, I'm sure the algorithm hates me for it. But you know, like, I was on holidays recently. And the last thing I wanted to do was even look at social media, let alone post something. So no one heard from me for like, probably 10 days. But yeah, I go, I go through ways of, you know, wanting to be seen and heard. Sometimes I go through phases where I really feel like the thing that I'm thinking about needs to be heard by someone. So I like to like, you know, put it into words or whatever. And then I go through phases where I just literally want to withdraw from it all. And I honor that, like I don't, I'm not going to post just because I want to see me, you know, because the algorithm won't like me I really couldn't care less about but yeah, I think I definitely like to just go with the flow. And I think you're right, probably tying that back into like the nature side of things is probably perfect. Let's delve into the two topics that I particularly like to talk about. First one's mum guilt and put that in air quotes. How do you feel about mum guilt? How do I feel about it? Okay, so if you were talking to me about an experience that you'd had, like, let's say, you were finding it hard, giving yourself time to do something. My advice to you would be, Alison, you're still the person you were before you had a baby. Get out there, you know, you need to spend some time on yourself. So I can give some great advice. But so I would like to say that I don't believe in mom guilt, but I've experienced it. So I think it's definitely it's there. I still have moments, even today, where I feel like I could be doing better, should be making a different decision. I think it's, I think it's incredibly real. I think it would be great if it wasn't, but I think we would be kidding ourselves if we said that it wasn't a real thing. Because yeah, I have felt it. I've probably even been in a category of martyrdom martyrdom? Is that what they call it? Where you? Yeah. Or you just really sacrifice yourself? For somebody else? And yeah, it's really interesting, because like, I've had an understanding prior to having jack of how important it is to look after yourself and to put yourself first and to know that that's actually not being it's not being selfish. It's like, probably the purest form of self love, is to be able to put yourself before somebody else. But then falling into motherhood. And, yeah, it's just a real, like, it just, it up ends that belief. And I think, for me, it probably just, it just happened. Like it was just, I think, a change of lifestyle, knowing that I had a little baby that was like, 100% reliant on me. And I felt like, I just sacrificed myself, I literally did. And I think when it came to that Christmas Day, when I, you know, everything fell apart. You know, it really highlighted to me that I needed to take better care of myself, like I was not eating well, I literally just ate the scraps. And that's not to say that I didn't have like, my partner, cooking me meals and stuff, like I still ate, you know, well, but you know, just just eating toast on the go. And, you know, not just making decision that actually had to look after myself. So, yeah, it took a while to get my head around that. But um, I think, yeah, just getting back to what you said, Mom, Gil is, it's alive. It's happening, it happens. And I think what we all we can do is really like support, especially new moms. To understand, uh, give, give them give them the the ability to be able to, you know, spend time on themselves, you know, going there helping them. But you know, it's not just new moms as well, it's, it's, I think it's mums in general. Yeah. Just yeah. All have kids of all ages. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really important point. Because, I mean, I'm not obviously I'm not begrudging the newborn stage, because I know that it's hell, I've done it twice. And it's really hard. That's the thing like, it's, it's almost like, well, you're over this hard stage, you'll be fine. Now off you go. You know, it's like, the Thank you, right. Looking out for mums of, of children at any stage in any age is really important. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I can only speak of, you know, the first four years. But I know that it's like, it's still things that you know, an example is, you know, I've got work that I have to get done. I've got deadlines, I, I work well, at the moment, I'm not working from home, but I'll likely be back working from home soon. And you know, if there's a time that I need to jump on my computer and finish something off, and Jack comes up to me and says, Mom, can you come play with me? And I have to say, Nobody, I've got to get something done for work, you know, there's an element of guilt in that. But the reality is that that's life. You know, I do have to get this thing done. And so I can I can reflect on that and say, Well, you know, you did have to do the thing that you did earlier. But it doesn't mean that I don't have that moment where I think, you know, I should be playing with him, because this is what he wants. Yeah, so yeah, it's a tricky one, the whole manual situation, but I totally believe it's there. Yeah. It's an endless thing isn't it's like, one day, you might feel like, yeah, you got it. Right. And then the next day, you feel like you're the worst moment? Absolutely. Yeah. It's a constant thing. You mentioned briefly their ties into my second point about identity, where you said, you're still the same person you were before you had children. Obviously, it's a belief that you hold. So one of my friends had a baby, years before I had Jack. And I watched her go through. I watched her lose. I've watched her. I didn't watch her lose her identity. But I watched her. Talk about losing her identity, and then trying to reclaim it back. And I remember saying to her, you're still a person you were before you had your baby. Like, you're still my friend, I still remember you when I like, studied with you live with you. So like, that hasn't changed for me. But she had lost sight of that. And I couldn't quite get my head around it at the time. And I was really trying to explain it to her. And it wasn't until I had Jack that I understood what happens. And you do lose yourself. Like, I don't think it matters how? Well I don't know, I can't speak for everyone, but certainly for me. Like I totally lost myself. I didn't know who I was, I knew that I knew what I enjoyed doing before I had Jack. And I knew that I now had a baby. Obviously couldn't make them both work at the same time. So I felt like I was in this like limbo state. And it took, it took a while for me to work out. Actually, it was sort of like a process of rent reinventing myself. That's how I felt it. It played out. I started trying to paint again, it obviously didn't like go, how I planned. And it was still very hit and miss as far as when I could actually be creative and when I couldn't. But I think what it did was it made me realize what I actually wanted to do. I started to get really clear on the direction that I wanted to take. And I sort of think I had a friend say to me, I think Jack was only quite young, he might have been six months old. And I have a friend or she actually a client as well, who said to me, Julia, when you become a mom, she said you've only got a certain amount of like bullshit that you can tolerate in a day. So when you've reached your threshold, you know you're done. And I I always remember that because I just remember thinking like it. Like I just didn't have time for a lot of stuff that I didn't have any interest in. So I think I just I just I started to become really clear on the direction I wanted to take. I became very clear on the people that I wanted around me and the people I didn't need around me. A lot of things just started to To like very much very slowly, but over time, making more and more sense. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like I started to reinvent myself. And yeah, I honestly believe that's why I'm where I am today, because I just didn't have I just didn't have the energy for meaningless things. And so I was just trying to follow the things that felt right and felt good. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like this, this new perspective of, like, I only have this amount of time. And I'm not going to give this time to stuff that that doesn't feel good for me or is, you know, feels like it's being wasted on stuff. That's irrelevant. And, yeah, I think naturally, you know, when your life changes that much, I think naturally, things just drop away. And like that, that goes for friendships, jobs, beliefs, I think just the things that don't serve you anymore, or perhaps were not really sustaining in the first place. You just don't have time for them. Or they don't have time for you anymore. So I think. Yeah, look, I think you get like, I think motherhood is just such a pivotal point in a woman's life, I don't think you can, you can ever expect that you're going to be the person that you were before. I think is so unrealistic. But you don't know that until you doing it. Yeah. Let's see, it's very much it's very much a learned and learned experience or a learning lesson. So you have you have to experience it together. It's like that joke if you had to be there. When you said before about control with, with Jack, when I had Digby, sorry, when I had Alex, I was exactly the same. I just wanted everything to go, how I needed it to go. Like, I remember one day, I had a similar experience to you, but perhaps not on the same scale that I wanted to go and watch Ben, he was cycling at that stage. So what I'm watching, right, so I'd worked out the whole day of when he had to get out when he had to sleep all this stuff to say that I could go watch. And it didn't work. And I just lost it. I was like, I can't do anything anymore. Because I've got this kid and blah, blah. And I remember my mother in law said he's not going to be this young forever is going to change. And I was like, we're like, I didn't hear that. You know, it didn't mean anything at the time. And then when he did start to change as of this morning period of Oh, no, he's not a baby anymore. But you know, like, Mr. Graham said, we don't wish it away. Don't Don't wish him to be older. So yeah, when I had D, I was the complete opposite. And I think it helped because I had been working in childcare for quite a while. And I had to excite, I saw all the myriads of ways that children could be raised and how their routines could be. And I had this whole new outlook on on parenting. And also there were seven years between them, so I hadn't quite grown up as the two and eggs. I just let it happen as it happened. And I was just such a more relaxed mother. Yeah, just I could completely, completely relate to that. Your experience. When you said, like, you know, you had this thing you wanted to be doing at the end of the day, so like, you will try and organize wake sleep. lunch late, you know, and I did the same thing. It was like, yeah, the pressure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I didn't really touch too much on the spiritual side of things. But like, yeah, like, it's, maybe it's not the same for everyone. But for me, it was like a very, very, like it was it was an awakening of sorts, it was sort of like, you know, you you can't control everything. Like, you're not meant to control everything. So I just feel like I've been cracked open multiple times through this parenting experience. And it's been, it's been like, I would never ever trade it for anything in the world. But I'm also not going to gloss over it and pretend that it was easy because I think we say so much of that. And I feel like people go into parenting with this like me, you don't want to make them feel like it's going to be doom and gloom otherwise You know, the Human Rights Code at the end? You know, like, but you want to give them some honest, like, give them some honest accounts of what you've been through. Because then it also validates the people that are in it doing it, thinking that life is just like, yeah, it is hard and to have people come along and say, like, even when you're in your depths, and someone comes along and says, this won't last forever, don't wish this away. It's like, no, but can you just like, can you just sit with me in this place that I'm in at the moment and actually validate that I'm, it's okay for me to be thinking this thing at the moment. Like, yeah, yeah, it's valid. Yeah, yeah. I don't think enough of that goes on, that you're actually you're allowed to feel what you're feeling. It's okay to fear feeling. And let yourself feel that way. You know, when one comes along and says, you know, Julia, this might be forever, and then you get that element of guilt. You know, like I should be, I should be more thankful and grateful. Yeah, like, I went through an infertility journey leading up to having Jack and that was four years. And then when I had him to have all these feelings of like, you know, like my life, I remember feeling trapped. I remember sitting on the toilet one day, just thinking, I'm just trapped. And like, I'm just, I can't get out of this. Yep. I remember having thoughts of blackjack not being able to sleep. So. So when when I was trying to put him to bed because this was bedtime, trying to get him to sleep, persisting, persisting, persisting, almost going insane. When really, I should have just got him up. Got Back Up. He's not ready to sleep yet. Put him back down later, but no, in my head. This was bedtime. Yeah. And I so I drove myself like, crazy. And I remember thinking, I wish he had a reset button that I could like, I remember having those thoughts of like, I wish I could literally just press a button that turned him off. And he went to sleep. Yeah. So like, I look back on my sports now. And I'm like, God, that was crazy. But you're in the depths of it like, and when you're having that little thought to yourself in that dark room, and no one else is seeing or hearing it. You know, you nobody knows what you're going through. Do that. Like nobody. Nobody hears that little thought that you have? No. Yeah. So yeah. All right, it was bloody hard. You didn't know any better. And I think that's where you need to give yourself grace. You just you didn't know any better. And if you did it all again, and you have you do it differently, because you've learned and you're easier on yourself. And, you know, I hope that I get to do it again. But I know that if I do it would be totally different. I'll have a different perspective. And you know, Jack's four years old, maybe I'll have a seven year gap to you know, like, and I'm actually okay with that. Because I think I don't think I could have done it any other way. Oh, yeah, I don't think but I don't think I could back up children like you know, and I'm not no disrespect to anyone who like wants the two year gap or the whatever. But I don't personally think that I could have ever achieved it. If I had a fallen pregnant when Jack was two years old, I would have cried myself to sleep every night like I just don't believe that I was meant to have you know, yeah, so Oh, you know, the beauty of hindsight Hey, sort of look back and yeah, but it is what it is. And you know, we just did the best we could really so which wasn't really that bad? So you've recently set up a space outside your home for your work? Yeah, yeah. Is that going going good? No, it's going really well. I'm I'm probably there for a little bit longer as in maybe a month to six weeks, something like that. But I yeah, I was offered a Be the back section of a coffee shop in Mount Gambia called confession. Who does delicious coffee by the way? That's been the downfall. So much caffeine. But yeah, look, I got to a point where I needed a I just wanted a space that wasn't at home. I could see that. Like, I wasn't getting a lot done here. So I felt like I needed like some way that I could actually go to work. I've been working from home for I think, eight years, actually not nine years. And for the most part, it's been fantastic. But yeah, I actually put something up on Instagram one day. And it was just like, does anybody have a place? I'm sort of in need of a space to work from can be, can be formal, it can be informal, I'm not going to rule out what it is where it is. Yeah, so I just sort of, you know, put it out to the universe and. And then, like, I was probably buying copies everyday from confession at that point. Yeah. And then I got a message from Don on on a Thursday night to say, you know, we've got this space, businesses moved out of it, and they've found their own short brand. Do you have any interest in maybe working from there for a few months, and really, just to fill a hole? So it was going to be just an empty room? And they didn't want that? So without even thinking? I just thought, yeah, absolutely. Like, what is the worst that can come of this, I am either incredibly unproductive there. And I can work, I can just bring my stuff home and work from here if I need to. But I had this whole room that I could hang up my artwork, which has been leaning up against walls in my office for ages. So I just really saw it as an opportunity and a bit of an experiment. I still see it as an experiment. Yeah, I just couldn't see any negatives to it. So it's been fantastic. I have spoken to people that call, like it's a bit of a thoroughfare the room that I'm in. But like I get to chat to people that I've never met before, I've had some amazing encounters and conversations with people that have like, furthered me in some way, whether it's the way I think about something or, you know, just conversations with people who are trying to create art groups or other artists, or yeah, I've had the ability to work with alongside a couple of artists, and it's just fabulous being in that really sort of creative space with other people. Oh, yeah, I've had my artwork up on walls, I've been able to sell a couple of paintings, just expose myself to a group of people that I wouldn't normally come across. And it's been absolutely fantastic. And what I've learned from it is, as much as I classify myself as an introvert, I do need interaction with people. But I need it, I sort of need it on my terms, too. So I get a lot from working with other creative people. Just it doesn't, I don't have to be working on a project with them. But just being in their creative space is very important. And that I get a lot more done working from somewhere than working from home. Like it's amazing. How many times I probably catch myself underneath my clothesline hanging out washing. How did I even get here? You know, it's just like, I think you hear the washing machine go off. And before you know it, you you're hanging up the washing and it's like, Joey, you're working like so, yeah, I'm realizing now that there is a benefit to me not working from home. And I love the fact that I can go to work. And I come home and I feel like there's a division between the tote. Yep. And I feel like when I'm home, I'm home and I'm present. And these are just all things that I have haven't. I just haven't noticed because I haven't been able to work away from my office that is in my house. And now that I've had that opportunity on I think like from here and I'll be looking for somewhere that I can actually call my work space or my studio where I can be I just productive and have my own my own area. And I also know that I want to be able to work amongst other people. So, yeah, it's been fantastic. It's been so good for that. Yeah, absolutely. It's given you these, like, like we said before you don't you don't know. I guess you don't know what you don't know. So by experiencing things you've gone, yeah, this is good. Yeah. I think it's great to for people that, like, follow you on social media, they can actually go and meet you face to face to, which is, like, so important, I think to like, it's great that people build relationships online, but it's, I think it's, it's, especially with art, like you actually want to see and I don't want to say touch the person, but you want to be more of the the person that's making this. So yeah, to you know, you get the energy and pick up on the vibes and that sort of stuff, too. So, definitely, definitely the benefits that way as well. And for people to be able to, you know, touch and feel and you know, see work and yeah, it's great I'll just check ever get involved with you just say do painting or anything like that? Do you do it together? Yeah, definitely does. And Jack is like, he's he hasn't shown a huge interest in like art and stuff at the moment. There's also an element of me like, not wanting him to get pain everywhere. I was gonna I would definitely had died outside where he's unleashed his creative, his creative desires. But yeah, he's, yeah, like, he's definitely got creative creativity in him. But at the moment, he's just very much into anything with wheels. That makes noise. Yeah. He was funny, he was playing in doing some coloring in only a couple of days ago. And like, he colored outside of the line, okay, so He's four years old, colored outside of the line, and he colored over the top of the yellow headlight on the car. And he was he hated it. He told me, he was never going to pick up another colored pencil. And here I am, like, deciding going, you have done an amazing job Jack, like, you know, you're practicing, you're not you can't coloring in the lines, you know, you're not going to be able to do it properly for a little while. So I'm encouraging you, meanwhile, really saying a portion of myself inside of him, like, you know, trying to control things. But yeah, he, I don't think he doesn't really influence my work. The way that he does influence, I guess the way that he does influence my creativity in some way is that, you know, I want I want him to do the things that he loves to do. And I want him to explore the things that he loves to do. And I think, like, I can only lead by example, in that, in that respect. So I want him to know that, you know, I've had a lot of people say to me, Oh, you're you're the rd type. And, oh, what does it mean? Like I like to, I'd like to just get you to explain that to me. But um, you know, a lot of a lot of a lot of people think artists can't make money. But artists can make money. There's plenty of artists that make money there. us in this town making a lot of money by selling their stuff online. And yeah, to not sort of pigeonhole anything into you know, just give, give, just entertain the idea that you could be, you know, good at this thing. If it's not today, it could be, you know, in a month's time, or maybe it'll be 10 years time, but like, just persistence is the key. So, he influences me in that respect, but he doesn't necessarily influenced the things that I paint. That's very much a personal thing for me, so Yeah, but he's certainly part of the process. I guess. You can't he can't not be Yeah, yeah, that's the that's the Yeah. So I've got one more workshop left for the year. And that is on the fourth of December, that's a Saturday at the apple farm. That's a two hour workshop. And it includes sexually over three hours, there's a two hour workshop. And then there's an hour for lunch. And there'll be a delicious pizza and sort of shared platter lunch. And that's a very festive theme. So there'll be the opportunity to paint some, you know, gift tags and cards and stuff like that. It's quite a social, a social sort of afternoon. So it's not so much about learning a lot about how to paint watercolor is just giving you sort of the tools, the materials to be able to just have a bit of fun. And I'm sort of really like envisioning, you know, especially moms, I'm very, very feminine audience. And I just sort of want people to be able to say, oh, you know, we haven't worked with our friends for ages. Why don't we do this thing that's like our little Christmas catch up? Because we all know what sort of December looks like in most people's calendars. Yeah. Well, like a staff show or something like that. So it's such a beautiful venue, and I'm hoping that the weather is amazing. And, you know, good food, good company. You know, a bit of like, creativity, I think it's perfect. So yeah, that's, that's the workshop that I've got coming up. I've just launched my website. Congratulation one. Now, there's still a lot to go on there. But like, once again, something is better than nothing. And it's, it's an evolution at all, like, it'll just continue to evolve. But yeah, so I've got my website up. So my web address is Julia Rita creates.com. And I'm just about to kick off on a project run by April Hague, and Jane Van Eaton. So to like amazing artists in our Gambia, who were doing like fabulous things with regard to, like art education. And they, they just recently won a grant. And they've launching a project called The Portrait Project. And it's, I believe, it's 10 artists, we all have our photo taken. And then we all paint a portrait of either ourself or one other person in the group based on the portrait photo that was taken of us. And it's a project that will span over six months, and we get to spend time with like these 10 artists, and we get to sort of collaborate and discuss and just learn different techniques and styles. And I think it's just fantastic to sort of submerge yourself in a group of women that all have like a similar interest. And so yeah, I was so thrilled to be invited to do that. And it was, again, like one of those no brainer moment moments where I knew this was sort of like another experience that would like enhance the direction that I'm going in. And so eventually, once that project is tied up, our portraits will be printed on a large scale and actually put up in a public space. So yeah, like really confronting, because portraits are obviously not something that I paint, and let's face it, like I think everyone a, whether you're artistically minded, or not, like painting a face is actually quite, you know, stretching the skill set. And you guys to having your face out there, like that something to, you know, consider if there's any sort of, you know, well, I've got a big chin or you know, that sort of stuff, you know, it's Yeah, that's me. I've, I've I have fast forwarded my thoughts to that moment. But no, look, it's it's gonna be fantastic. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's only really just kicking off at the moment. But I think if you were interested in more on that particular project, you could go to if you look up April Hague haitch ag UAE on Instagram. She's got some information on there. But yeah, perhaps if they If I do set up a specific social media page, I'll let you know Alison so you can be on it to the specific Yes, Lily kids. Yeah, I'd love to keep keep her eye on that. And I'm sure a lot of people would be really interested in that too. Yeah. Seeing the progression of that. Oh, that sounds so great. Julie. A good one. Yeah. Lots of cool stuff happening. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I should also say that I am going to be at a market on the 10th of December. Yeah, at the city hall and that Gambia there's an artisans market there. So yeah, it was quite popular last time. So hopefully this time as well. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman dotnet. Edge to Ellis Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Dana Stephensen Senior Dancer with the Australian Ballet S2 Ep39 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Dana Stephensen, Senior Artist with the Australian Ballet Company and a mother of 3 children, including twin girls, At the age of three Dana began her dance training with Davidia Lind in jazz, tap, ballet and singing in her hometown of Brisbane. She later trained with Mary Heath and Sandra Ashley before studying with the Queensland Dance School of Excellence in 2001, obtaining her Royal Academy of Dance Solo Seal. Dana joined The Australian Ballet School in 2002. In her graduating year she was seconded to The Australian Ballet to perform in various seasons before joining the company full-time in 2005. She has since enjoyed international tours to Los Angeles, New York, UK, Auckland, Shanghai, Tokyo, and Paris. At the end of 2008, Dana was awarded the Khitercs Hirai Scholarship, which enabled her to gain invaluable experience training with numerous ballet companies in Europe. Dana was promoted to coryphée (a leading dancer in a corps) in 2010 and went on to win the Telstra Ballet Dancer Award later that year. She was promoted to soloist in 2014 and to senior artist in 2018. In 2020 Dana took what she thought was to be her final dance with the company, at that stage 11 weeks pregnant with her twin girls with fiancé Lachy Gillespie AKA the Purple Wiggle . Today Dana shares her story of her experience with post natal depression and anxiety, and how she used her ballet as therapy to aid in her recovery. I also indulge my own curiosity of the ballet world so we talk a lot about ballet! **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and anxiety** Read more about Dana and follow her on instagram Dana would love you to visit : www.cope.com.au www.panda.com.au www.gigetfoundation.org.au Upcoming Australian ballet Shows Read and listen to the part of Swan Lake I was trying to describe Read the Sydney Morning Herald article Read about Wayne McGregor and Dyad 1929 Podcast - instagram / website Music used in this episode is in the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright, and is taken from the ballets Swan Lake, Peter and the Wolf, The Nutcracker and Giselle. Photo by Jeff Busby of Dana performing in the ballet The Sleeping Beauty. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me. I'm thrilled to welcome to the podcast today. Danna Stevenson, Donna is a senior artist with the Australian ballet and a mother of three children including twin girls. At the age of three, Diana began her dance training with de Vidya land in jazz tap ballet and singing in her hometown of Brisbane. She later trained with Mary Heath and Sandra Ashley, before studying with the Queensland dance school of excellence in 2001, obtaining her Royal Academy of Dance solo seal, Donna joined the Australian ballet school in 2002. In her graduating year, she was seconded to the Australian ballet to perform in various seasons before joining the company full time in 2005. Since that time, she's enjoyed international tours to Los Angeles, New York, the UK, Auckland, Shanghai, Tokyo and Paris. At the end of 2008 Danna was awarded the catex HiRISE Scholarship, which enabled her to gain invaluable experience training with numerous ballet companies in Europe. Donna was promoted to Cara fee, a leading dancer in a core and went on to win the Telstra ballet dancer award later that year. She was promoted to soloist in 2014, and two senior artists in 2018. In 2020, Donna took what she thought was to be her final dance with the company at that stage 11 weeks pregnant with her twin girls with her fiance, Locky Gillespie, also known as the purple wiggle. Today Diana shares her story and her experience with postnatal depression and anxiety and how she used her ballet as therapy to aid in her recovery. I also indulge my own curiosity of the ballet world. So we talk a lot about ballet and music. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression and anxiety. The music used in this episode is in the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright, and is taken from the ballets of Swan Lake, Peter in the wolf, the Nutcracker. And Giselle, I hope you enjoy. Welcome, Donna, thank you so much. It's lovely to have you today. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to have a chat. Yeah, for sure. So you're a senior artist, you've obviously been dancing ballet for quite a while. Can you tell us how you first got started? I started dancing when I was three. So my earliest memories really are of me being a dancer, obviously a little bit different to what I am now. But I think it is quite interesting that that's kind of where memory kind of starts to form for children, here and there. And so my earliest memories are of dancing. So I actually started because my sister was dancing at the time. She's two years older than me. And she had started a general jazz class at the local dance school with some school friends. Because she was really shy, really, really shy like hiding behind mom shy. So it was a way of kind of getting her into something social and something to bring her out a bit. Yes, it was parent watching week that week, and I went with mum. And I was sitting at the back and I just started, I just stood up and started joining in the class. And then they were doing cartwheels. And I just was all a part of it, basically. And the teacher came over to mom and said, Oh, I think this little one probably wants to have a go, you know, come around to the little little East class and other day. And I think it just started like that. And then quite quickly, I started the Stanford team. I was there five days a week, and then six days like, by that before I started school, probably a bit more. It was like, more is more. I just danced all the time. I was at school or I dance that was that was how it was. Yeah, right. So it was literally your sister got you into it, which is really cool. My sister got me into singing, like formal singing, like because she joined. And I wanted to do it too. So that's a really cool, so it's your sister older. Now she's younger. And I think that's why I wanted to do it. Because it was like, well, she gets to draw, I should be doing it. Because yeah, I mean, I think it's a little bit ironic because my sister started doing a jazz class. And I started with that. And then I started taking ballet and tap, and then all the different, all the different things. And my sister stuck with that one jazz class a week until maybe she was 10. She would, she would get so worked up before it and we didn't know this until she was older that she would get so sick to her stomach about going to dancing because it was such a big deal for her to have people looking at her. And meanwhile, her little sister was just you know, couldn't get enough of it. Interestingly, Brie my sister Bree, she would have done so well in ballet. Yeah, I was very much metrical one. And then I found ballet to be my path a lot later. Whereas my sister, she would have actually loved ballet. And she says that now I wish I'd just done ballet, not jazz, because that's all out there. And yeah, a bit chunky. Whereas ballet, she's she actually would have loved the discipline. And the, you know, the teacher sets the exercise. And you do that, and it's a bit quieter? Not not so much like, like jazz hands in the spotlight kind of thing. Yeah. So then how did you get into the ballet side of things? Was it just something you were offered? And, and then you sort of just thought, I love this so much. I'm just gonna go with it. Yeah, it's quite interesting, because I think as a child, I am sure this is the case. For most children. I just love dancing. I didn't really, obviously there were the dance styles. But I didn't differentiate between what each one was, I just loved the whole thing. And then once I started doing istead, fits and being on stage and the lights and the feeling of that, and taking on a different character, it was all one in the same. Obviously, there's different elements to each sort of style, but I just loved all of it. So it wasn't until I was a teenager, and every time that musicals would come to Brisbane, I'm from Brisbane. So you know, once he went fame would calm or Chicago or whatever it was, we'd go and but also every time the Australian ballet would come, you know, on the Saturday matinee mum would take me to that. And that was a big event of the year too. So it all just kind of was coinciding, and I had no preference whatsoever, until as a teenager, you do start to need to take a bit more of a structured path if you are going to follow ballet, but my school at the time did video in Dance Center where I went when I was three, she she had never had a ballet dancer. So that needed more ballet training as a teenager because no one had kind of got that fire in their belly exams at the time. So I actually had to find some teachers externally to help me. And then I was an interstate associate with the Australian Ballet School, which is in Melbourne, which is the school that does feed into the Australian ballet company. And so that meant I could come down for a week, every year to do like a winter school. And when they came to Brisbane, we do a master class, but it was still just happening bubbling along. But then the audition came to do for the first level five year which is about 15. At the Australian Ballet School, the senior school is level six, seven and eight. That's like your finishing training. But they're just started a level five and that was half ballet half school. And so I auditioned for that and was very hopeful about getting in and I didn't get in. And I was really really disappointed. And I couldn't have said it at the time. But I think that was a really big catalyst in thinking I obviously really want to do this. It's not happening right now. And I, I think I really, I want that to be happening. So the next year, I went to a school in Brisbane called the Queensland at school of excellence, which was, again, half Valley High School, but a version of that in Brisbane, and auditioned again for the Australian ballet school the next year. Yep. And got in the next year, and then did my three years and then got into the company. Yeah, so yeah, that moment, it's like, the level of disappointment you felt made you sort of realize i, this is how much I want this. This is it's almost like, it's not great that you didn't get in, but it's almost like you needed that to confirm it for you to make you go right, I'm gonna go for this really, this is what I want to do. So I think so it was an probably a strong indication to that I needed to probably blinkers on a little bit. And just focus a bit more on that. Having said that, I was I loved my high school, and I loved my school friends. And I, I think that's something you know, I've always had, I have always kind of needed to have a balanced sort of life. I was never like a Betty bonehead. And I'm still not. But at the same time, I think I needed to probably think, Okay, well, if this is what you want to do, there's a few steps that need to be taken. And so I took those steps and worked really hard and I was very lucky to get in that next time. So then what what sort of direction did you Korea take from then after that, getting in there. So they strain bicycles, three years and then. So your final year, you start to do a lot more performing. And very fortunately, at the time, the company who's in the same building, so it's really special at the school, because you can't just walk down the corridor, and like, put your little face at the windows, and you see the company dancing and rehearsing and all your idols and like it's, you know, coming from Brisbane, and coming down into this world. It was so scary, overwhelming, amazing, exciting, just all of those things. And then to, to think and dream about getting to the other end of the corridor and getting into those company rooms one day. But yeah, at the time, when I was in my last year at the school, that company had, we're doing lots of different seasons, but there was quite a few injuries. So they needed some extra dancers. And at that time, they often seconded dancers from the school to go join that company. So they had a couple of us learn a particular ballet symphony and see, and then the next night I was on, basically, Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was like a baptism of fire. But at the same time, I feel like looking back at that age, you're so ready. And that's what you're training for. And obviously, that's an amazing opportunity. And then that opportunity turned into a longer opportunity. I danced with the company for almost all their seasons that year. And so I was very lucky to have the, the staff and obviously the artistic director at the time, David McAllister, he could see me across a whole year almost, as opposed to going in one day for an audition somewhere, they have no idea who you are, where you've come from any story. And you have to somehow impress someone in in a glimpse or in a half an hour class, then, you know, to this day, I still find that hard when people come into cars valets, I'm like, I don't even know what you want to see like, and that's fine. By this point. You're just like, I need this is what I've got. And if you like it, great. And if you don't, all right, then that's kind of the nature of the industry. There's still something that I I find quite challenging. But like I said, at that at that time of, you know, trying to get my first job, I was very fortunate to have a long audition process. And not for a second though, did I think I would get a job the following year, but then at the end of the year, when they gave contracts out, they gave two female contracts and two male contracts and I was one of the females. That was lucky enough Did you get a job with the company then? Yeah, right. So then that meant you're part of that, that room that you've been sort of peeking in and looking out for those years, that would have been incredible. It really is. It's, you know, there's so much looking up to in ballet, you know, you watch videos in such a different world now, with the internet and YouTube, but back in the day, you'd have back in the day. But so, but no, I would watch the same videos at the Australian ballet company every Saturday over and over, and over, and I knew everything they did inside out. And then he walked down once a move to Melbourne. And then he walked down the corridor and that person, right there real quick. So, yeah, it's, I think it's a really lovely thing. And there's substitution traditions in ballet that really need to move forwards. But there's certain traditions that are really lovely, like when you're doing the company, and there's a lot of respect, obviously, for the principles. And if they don't have a passport, and you're absolutely a first year, you do not take a spot at the bar. And some of those things seem a bit archaic. But I also think in our, our industry and our career, those people have worked to where they've got to, and they who we look to and the epitome of that. And I actually loved that. Yeah, it's like that level of respect that you can show someone's in that, like, we were talking before about being called a ballerina. That's a title that you've earned. And, you know, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's, I guess all dancers feel differently about that. And that's a personal preference. But I don't feel that comfortable when people refer to me as a ballerina, because I'm not that, in my mind. I'm, for many reasons, I'm not that I'm a bit left field as a ballerina, but also, they're the people I look up to. They're the people who have earned that title as ballerinas of the company. And I've done a lot of amazing work, and I'm so proud of where I'm at, and the rain. COVID chi is something beyond my wildest dreams. But yeah, I even in like, you know, the smallest context when you know, even like, when a little girl calls me a ballerina like, Oh, I'm not quite I'm sorry. No, okay. Yeah, in my by myself, like, oh, that's, that's, that's those people. That's not me. Yeah, yeah, I can I just say that. It's, yeah, I think, like you said, there's probably a lot of things that can change. But I think there's nothing wrong with respecting people like you, like you the story that you've just outlined the amount of work that's gone in, you know, and there's people you know, that's what they do, they dedicate their entire life to their art. So I think there's, you know, there's a time and space for like, you know, some tradition, respect Yeah. Just while we're talking about that, I'll just mention quickly, my I went to school with two girls who went on to become dancers, dances with different ballets. I'm not sure if you know, Rachel Walsh, or if you've heard of Rachel, she was happy to fall. Yeah, we went through school together, up to I think she left you 10 might have been a last year in that Gambia. And then she went off to do her thing, which she's done, amazingly. And we've been chatting a bit. So we're organizing that she'll come on the show in the future, which is really cool. And another girl called, she's Lisa Robinson, and she went to Canada, I think, to do her dance, he or she ended up in Canada. She's there now. But it was just amazing that at that time, when you're when you're teenagers, you have no idea what these girls are doing what they're going through, you just go Oh, yeah, they're dead. They're dancing, you know, but they're, like you've described your whole world you switched on, that's your focus. And everything involved in that too. Like your, your way you eat, I suppose and the way you look after your body and the exercises you do and the training that you do. And here we are just you know, teenagers worrying about, you know, what the boys are up to or you know, it's just all different, different world. Like that's it. That's a really interesting point because I I think ballet dancers have to make certain decisions much earlier. You know, it would it's, it's comparable with elite athletes, but they have to make quite adult is an adult grown up decisions about what they'd like to do how they'd like to achieve it. But at quite a young age, I moved to Melbourne, I was 16. But I know there's other kids, I'd say, Yeah, you know, at 1415. And they might be in the boarding house or, you know, different, different home setups. And I can't comment on anyone else's experience, obviously. But you look back and you think, oh, that's, that's actually a massive deal. But at the time, and this is, this is the sort of people we are, who are who are drawn to what, to who are drawn to doing what this what we do, you have to be so driven, and dedicated, and focused, single minded focus and determined, resilient, they're all the skills that you're building up in your teenage years, which is not often I'd say, traditionally, the years you're building up those things. Oh, and, you know, staying open to things and so you, you did, probably there's a sense of isolation in that. I mean, I had great school friends around me who they were just like Danna does ballet. And that's really great. I know, other people have had different experiences by being so different. Obviously, a lot of men in the company, I've had lots of bullying experiences, I got a little bit about how small I was, and how, how focused I was, I guess, but I had really good people around me and I have a really amazing family who's not involved in ballet at all, really grounded. And it was all a bit of a new experience for me. And I felt a bit protected in that honestly. But yeah, it is it is. It feels like you're a bit ahead in many ways, at that age, because you have to be, but that's what prepares you for the career you're about to have. And to be able to handle the pressure that you have to at really quite a young age. Would you say, Don't put words in your mouth, but I've never been in the ballet world. Is it? Like I don't want to say cutthroat but is it a hugely intense? Like you talked about the having to audition? Like is there so much pressure to keep yourself at a certain level or and you're competing with other people all the time? Or if I got that really not on the mark? No, you're pretty spot on. What's probably a bit less expected is that it's it's a lot more nuanced than that in terms of it is cutthroat and it's competitive. And in a company, and I've been in a company for 18 years now, which I can't believe I still feel like I'm 16 It's a bit like that, I feel like you just keep you a little bit young somehow, in some way. But anyway, I do. It's a really interesting competitiveness. Because essentially, you're vying for the same roles all the time. And you're Korea is in is ideally solely in your hands and your work and the effort you're putting in and energy and your commitment, and your training, your resilience and your reliability. There's so many skills that are in your control. But there's also a really big one, which is someone else's opinion, and that at the end of the day, sometimes trumps everything. And I think a good thing to remember with that, though, is that across your career, you will be on both sides of that, you'll be on the side where someone comes in and just thinks you're the bee's knees. And they'll then there's the times that you're on the other side of that, which is someone who's not interested in you at all. And so everyone has their moments either side. And you know, you might have a couple of bad years where you feel like nothing's going your way. And trying to stay motivated in that time and internally driven and internally motivated, is very challenging. And I think that again, we move into this career quite young, I was performing at 17 with the National Ballet Company, which you know, there were younger people than that even so, especially young, but at that age, you're dealing with quite a lot of pressure and competitiveness. And you know, I've got children and you know, what would you want to tell your children You're perfect as you are, you know, just go out there and do a good job. Just work hard, and that's the most important thing. How do you tell someone or they just don't want Like, how you look? Yeah, like, that's just always, you know, obviously, in ballet, there's, you know, a lot of scope to talk about body types and body aesthetics. And the Australian ballet is really healthy in terms of that. There's, we all look really different. There's lots of different heights, and different body styles and different ways of moving, which ultimately, is the most important thing. But there is a lot of versatility in our company now. But sometimes it really is, they don't like how you look, or how you can't, which is the way you personally express yourself. So it's pretty heart wrenching sometimes because they're like how someone else does it more. And some, sometimes just thinking about almost as clearly as as brutal as it is, is the best way. Like, that's how they're doing it. I'm doing this over here. And as you get older, and more experienced, and I think weed life experience, obviously kind of boosting you. On all sides, you realize that this is all you have is what you are and what you bring. And if it's not your turn right now, it might be your turn next month. Yeah, I'm, that is such a incredible way of looking at things like that. It's so pragmatic. It's just an I personally, it took me a long time to get to that point with music, because it's, it's the same thing people like what you're doing or you don't, and it's you, you're putting yourself out there. And I got to a point. Like I used to do a Stanford to for singing. And one year I just thought, why am I doing this, I'm letting one person's opinion, decide how I feel about myself. And I just thought, I'm not doing this anymore. I don't, I don't want to feel like this. And I just stopped doing it. And then I can sort of like put myself up for different awards or put things online. And I feel like, if it's not my turn, it's someone else's turn. And that's they need that right now in their life. And it's become a really great way of me being able to just go, Oh, that's good, that's nice and not be worried about stuff anymore. Which took a long time, like, I'm nearly 44. So it's like, it's a thing that you have to go through, I think because no one can sit you down and say, right, this is how you should feel about failure. I think it's something you have to sort of work through yourself. But I love that I really love that the way I've described that. I think experience, you need experience on both sides of that coin. And you know, another thing in the company, you join the company, and we all have, we all have a certain level of talent that makes us ballet dancers. And then beyond that we all have our unique talents. And some of us, I'm a really good jumper, for example, because of how I'm built and I'm really athletic. But my whole life my whole career, I've wished I've looked like the other girls who are so beautiful and so elegant. And just total ballerinas and I have lots of energy, and it serves me really well sometimes. And other times I hold over a lot. I've just come to embrace and everyone's like Dan is on the floor again. Because I've gone through obviously different phases with what I've felt like on my own failures or weaknesses. Yeah. And of course, as a younger dancer, there is something so much about your work ethic. If I just work hard enough, I can change that. And there is merit to that, about working on our weaknesses, but ultimately, focusing on our strengths and amplifying them actually, is so much more. I don't know, it's you're so much more yourself, if that's what you're focusing on what you're putting your attention to. I spent, you know, my early years in the company were quite tricky. And I was having battles with, with what eventually became Hashimotos thyroiditis. So thyroid disease, which was undiagnosed for a long time. Yeah, and my body's a lot and being a professional ballet dancer and having a really low it's an autoimmune disease. But yeah, it's, it was really challenging. And so I was finding it very hard to have confidence in anything about myself and then when it came to my dancing, I was still in that mindset of if I could just make my legs look nicer if I you know, I've got really strong feet but they're not aesthetically beautiful like a lot of the other girls like I don't know, how about it, it's a really honor. Some other people probably say that to which I say hats off to you. But yeah, I just if I could just make that better. Yeah, my career will be better. But ultimately, it's it's not it's your career is going to be what it is. And they're, they're in a ballet camp, there is always room for a dancer like me. And that took time and maturity to realize there is someone has to be the person jumping, someone has to be the one moving fast. I'm a bit messy. And I'm always working on my footwork and trying to clean things up. But someone has to do that. And once I felt confident in that, that was something I could do that those other girls were like, how do you do that? I was like, I don't know, I just get in the air man, like, Oh, I'd love to be able to do that. I'd love to be able to stand still like you is a place that can be a place for everyone. And sometimes when it comes to casting things swing your way. And other times, they don't you realize your opportunities out there, you make the most of them. And then when you can see maybe there, what's tricky in the company, there might be a season you're not in very much, or there's not a lot of work for you. But you never know what's coming up next. And you know, often we do know what's coming up, but you never know what your next opportunity might be. So if you drop the ball, and think, Oh, this is my, this is my season where it's a bit average, or I'll just won't bother. Ya know what Julie, you might miss next because you're not ready. And that's these are the things that I have no doubt, I can say 100% have have created the opportunities that have actually made me and made my career not because, you know, I was built a certain way, being in the right place at the right time has has been very good to me. Yeah, and that you're right. It's like, it's you unless you're, unless you're ready for that opportunity when it comes? Well, actually, this person sort of slackened off a bit this year, because, you know, they didn't get so many roles. And we can see that. So we'll go to the next person, you know, so yeah, you've got to, you've always got to be motivated and still working and which would be intensely draining. Like it sounds like, you know, it's a full on life. Like you're just, I mean, obviously, lots of people do it. So it's sustainable. But from my point of view, someone who's not a dancer at all, and not highly motivated. It really it is and again, as a young student, you don't, it's what you want to do. It's your passion, it's your drive, you love it, you can't imagine not doing it. And you're willing to give up almost anything to do it. And it's so enjoyable. Like, I love dancing. I know last night I was on stage, and my old nanny actually was watching and she hadn't seen me dance after all these years. And she said, Oh, gosh, it just looks so much fun. And I said to her, I was like, I just have a stupid amount of fun when I'm on stage. And I know I've got my little kids at home, and I hope they're asleep and they ate them. And then I just had this. I know it's not a guilt, like guilty pleasure. I just, it's just so fun. Like, and I'm just lucky, I still enjoy what I do so much. But it is a lifestyle. It's it's not. It's not it's not a job for us. And I think, again, I can't speak for everyone else. But if it becomes a job, I don't think it's right anymore. Because it is so much more than that. And you have to put so much more into it. And in terms of just your hours, you know, we work really long hours, unusual hours. We rehearse in the days. We train every day, six days a week. We have Sundays off but we try and live every morning. We rehearse every day. We perform at night, but we don't just go in for the show at night. We train in the morning, rehearse show, two shows Wednesday two shows that day. 200 shows a year. It's yeah, it's the Australian ballet is one of if not the top amount of you know shows per year in terms of ballet companies. Yeah. Which takes a certain amount of resilience and managing your body and your mind over that time becomes a really important skill that you learn. It takes years to learn how to manage that. Yep, yeah. Can I help? Sorry, we were really doing a lot of talking about your ballet, which is dope, we will get to your family, it's okay. I'm just so honored to be able to speak to you. And I really want to squeeze everything out that I can because it's just really exciting. Like I said, my exposure to ballet, like with the girls that I grew up with, it was it was a world that I knew nothing about. I loved it. And I love watching ballet, it's just blows my mind how graceful and incredible it is. So I just want to ask you lots of things. I'm more than happy. You know, it's a lot of people find it quite a you know, it is this mysterious kind of world. And I'm, I'm always wanting to encourage people to ask questions. And it's, you know, there's obviously that version of ballet people often think about in their heads. And often it's a bit different to that. Or then there's the other one, which is like, Oh, is it like Black Swan? And it's like, well, there's little bits that are absolutely true. I'll be the first to tell you that it's not quite like that. But I think it's lovely that people are interested in in what we do. It's always a lovely thing. Awesome. Well, that's good. You can indulge me a bit longer than Absolutely. All right. So I'd like to ask you what your favorite roles have been that you've played and why. And I didn't even I didn't even give you a heads up. I was gonna ask you this. Sorry. No, that's, that's really I like being on the spot. Oh, that's really tricky. Because I'm, I mean, I've been so lucky. fortunate to have had such a wide range of roles and opportunities. Yeah, and across, you know, the starting Valley does a lot of strict classical ballet performances, you know, your swan lakes, you're not crackers does owls, kind of structurally classical ballet, Sleeping Beauty. And then we do a lot of contemporary modern work. And usually the year it's kind of somewhat, the balance is somewhat split. And I have had opportunities in kind of both sections of those repertoire groups. And it's kind of like when I was younger when people said, oh, did you like jazz or ballet? And I just liked it all. Yeah, it's the same thing. In what I do. Now, I just love it all. There's not one that's better than the other. And even as I get older, often people lean one way or the other. And I just, I just love it all, because I love dancing. And they all bring different challenges. I will say though, often certain roles at certain times in your career do seem to feel like they mean, even more. The one of my favorite, like all time, classical roles was Giselle. And I was very lucky I, I was able to dance the title role of Giselle, which I would never normally be casting because there's so many other girls who are so beautiful at it. And that's just the nature of it. Sometimes you don't get it, you know, you might get a go of all those girls weren't so good. But also, you know, stylistically, you know, some people might not cast me in that role, but it came out it came about because it was the regional tour of the Australian ballet goes out. And that year on I had my son Jasper a few months earlier. And I was talking with David McAllister, my director at the time about coming back and the the main company, we're actually going to London on tour then. And I was like, not up for that. Yeah. Actually, this is really great opportunity, if you would like the regional tour is taking out Giselle, and I think you'd make a really lovely Giselle, would you like to do it and this is like the Holy Grail of ballet. And I'm like, How can anyone say no like, like coming back after maternity leave? You know, talk about like not working your way up. It's like, it's the most incredible ballet role. It's the romantic ballet period. So it's not, you know, it's your long kind of soft tutus. Not your sticky outy. tutus. Yeah. And it's it's a beautiful ballet about this young peasant girl who falls in love. And then she realizes that he's actually a royal and he's engaged to someone else. And she has a weak heart anyway, and her she basically, cat, you know, goes into such a state and her heart gives way and she, she dies. And then the second act is the ethereal, otherworldly spirit world. And so she is one of the willies. They're called. And this beautiful quarter ballet scene, that's the big roof of the company, create this amazing atmosphere. They're like ghosts. And so Albrecht, who was the man she fell in love with comes to find her grave and her spirit. And she basically saves him because the Queen Miyata, Queen of the willies. So queen of all of these, you know, these girls who were jilted before their wedding days, they dance the man to death, anyone who dares enters the forest, you know, after dark, and Giselle with all her compassion and forgiveness dances until sunrise with our breaks this love of hers to save him. And, you know, it's a role that is so intricate, in terms of its dancing, but more than anything, just the story is so, so beautiful to tell, and you can really make your own mark on it. And to cut back after having a baby at that point, that role was so, so perfect and cathartic for me to dive into. Because there was just a whole new level of me that was able to have that absolute 100% all in love, compassion, forgiveness, I'll do anything for you know, that you have to have a child, that's just, you know, I don't even know how it comes out. But it's just a part of you. And I had this beautiful art form this beautiful music, this atmosphere and to just, you know, pour that all into so the timing of that roll, that roll in itself is is a gift to any ballet dancer or ballerina. Yeah, it's a real ballerina role. And, you know, I haven't had a lot of those ballerina moments, I could say, that might have been my one. But it was the timing of that, particularly that was so special in every single show. It's not about you know, if you got all your face positions, or if your turns were perfect. It's about, you know, your connection with your partner the atmosphere you create, and, and every show, I walked away just so happy and proud. And so touched and humbled by being able to do that at that time. You know, and I was like camping before the show. Yeah. And, you know, always bath in Jasper and then would rush to the theater and go into this other world. But that whole time did have this really special magic. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I will assume you. You've actually answered a question that I was going to ask you later about, because there's so much acting involved in your dancing. I think I think a lot of people realize that, that that's such a massive part of what you do. The way that you'd approach a role changed after you became a mom and you've just answered that without even asking it. It's just Yeah, I love I really think, again, that's a craft that you you have to learn across your years. You know, you come to as a young dancer and you're you're dancing and you know, you might do a bit of like, acting in terms of the ballets you're putting on it students, but that is a craft that you you learn and you know, I've been so fortunate that I've grown up in the company watching these incredible ballerinas and several of them were became mothers while they were still dancing, and I could see that transformation. I don't know how well they've had babies, but just the depth that the expression, the naturalness, the freedom, like there's so many things that come out of that, but you know, you sit there and you watch all those full rehearsals for the whole company in a room, running all these big ballets. And you you watch over the years how many We'll do those things. And when you get a chance to be able to wish I had at that point in time to put all of that in to a role. That was, yeah, such a magical time. Obviously, then there's valleys that don't have a story. And so, in terms of, you know, you're not acting per se, but you might, you know, there's obviously always envision in your mind that you're thinking of, or, you know, a vision the choreographer wants you to create, or an energy or a feeling or something in those kinds of contemporary works. And, you know, conversely, that's what I also enjoy about the contemporary repertoire that we, you know, we perform, is those kind of really physical, the expression is the physicality and the physical physicality almost has a persona, and you have a persona, when you're, you're dancing that even if there's not a story, yeah, that's your input, you embody those emotions or whatever the you're trying to get out. Yeah, yeah. And often, you know, obviously, ballet. For me anyway, the music is, it's the marriage of the ballet and the music, it's, that's when it comes to get it that alchemy, that's, that's what's, you know, goes across that, you know, the fault lines, that's what the audience takes on that their experience is that, you know, Alchemy that's happening in front of them, and that can be equally as powerful. In a contemporary work, I was very lucky I, when a choreographer call Wayne McGregor came out from the UK. He's a very, very renowned choreographer. And at the time, he just started as a resident choreographer at the Royal Ballet. So he was a contemporary choreographer, and then he started to move to the ballet space of it. And then not long after lots of ballet companies across the world, we're grabbing him to, like get a work by Wayne. Yeah, we were quite early in the piece, really, at that sort of time, we're able to, somehow now became, and he created a work called diet 1929 here, and that was a time he came into the room to obviously cast the ballet, we're in class, and I was quite young at the time, or maybe 24 or something, and, and I knew his work, I was like, so cool to be here. But you know, like, how do you how do you get in it? Yeah, you standing there doing fundraising? Like what can you see in my Tonberry, that's not very good, because I'm not very good at them still, that might show you that I or so want to be in your way. Anyway, really, you know, often ballets a cast from the hierarchy. So from the top of the company down, I was still in the quarterback at the time, which is, you know, the big ensemble down the bottom. But not everyone cast like that he came in, and he looked at the whole company as a whole. And it didn't matter where you were. Yeah, I think, anyway, very fortunately, got cast and his ballet, and then that ballet across my time. You know, that was such a, you know, working with him at that time was like groundbreaking for all of us. We've never worked with someone like this. He's so fast. He's so smart. He is. He does a lot of work with brain science and how he puts that into, you know, ballet and art a lot of people wouldn't even understand but for him, like, that's how he creates it. You watch his brain work. And you think, wow, I just like, you just see all the neurons firing. It was a really exciting time. It felt very, like we're in the moment cutting edge. And I, I was very fortunate to learn a spot in that. And so I was performing that and then across my career, every time we've done that ballot, then moved on to a different spot. Yeah, right. So for different spots in that valley, you know, we took it to New York. And you know, I did a different spot in that. And so I've kind of grown up in that valley. So that's one of my favorite contemporary pieces. Yeah, that's been my journey as well in terms of, I stepped up into, you know, different roles. And then my last show before I had my twin girls actually was in that valley in a white leotard, which is absolutely what you want to be in when you're pregnant with twins at 11 weeks. It's all it actually has been saying in about a month. So Valley mountains that you just, you cannot time it any better. But you are usually when you're, you know, early, you know, first trimester dancing, if you're pregnant, you have to be in a flesh leotard or while you're tired because it always happens like that. Nobody's like a free free dress or like something coming it's just always happens to fall in the most exposing of all so yeah, but same time that I knew that those were my last shows and I actually thought they were my last shows ever. And so to for it to be in that work. That particular work was really special to me, and I've done Lots of contemporary works. And they're all fantastic too. And they could so easily be my favorites. Yeah, but the timing again and what that whole valley and journey meant that yeah, that's a really special suspicion yeah I don't want to talk too much more about your ballet. I do want to, but I'm gonna make myself stop. But you've mentioned the music. And it's like, I absolutely that is. I don't want to say it's my favorite part of ballet because of course, the dancing is pretty awesome. But like you said, the way that it's all wrapped up together, and the costuming and everything and my favorite bit ever was in Swan Lake when because, you know, you've got that theme that dad did it, it did. I don't know what any of this is called. So just go with me here. When it turns when it changes at the end. And it's goes from being in a minor key tool, major key. And it's just it gives you goosebumps, it's like it just taught it tells you the story through the music, they don't even have to tell you what's happened to this character, this transformation. It's like you just hear in the music. And it's just that moment, every time I hear it, I just go Oh, survive. And to rely, you could just imagine how you How could you contain yourself when you're actually onstage doing that, like I always think like, it could just be like envelopes in it, you're just your whole body and your senses, it just be like charged, it'd be amazing. It's such a full body experience, I think and we are so used to that. And so it did that. And it's an incredible feeling, you know, some of the, the scores we dance to and, you know, some scores, you know, like the the big Tchaikovsky's or, you know, it's, you've heard them over and over. And I bet you've rehearsed. And I went and stopped going back. I can't stop, go back. You know, you've heard them cut up many times, you're often counting certain things. You know, the ballet we're dancing at the moment is Anna Karenina, and the score was made for this particular production. So it also marries so perfectly. Yeah. And, you know, it's a really tragic story, obviously. And there's some absolutely just heartbreaking musical moments that are just matched so beautifully with what's happening on stage. That, you know, we've seen it so many times. And it still it gives me goosebumps, and it still feels like ah, this is just like so. Yeah, it's just, I don't know, it's yeah, it's such a privilege, you know, to, to watch people in that moment or to be in that moment. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. It's beautiful. I love it all right, let's talk about your children. You've mentioned them briefly in passing. Tell us a little bit more about your family. I have three children, which still doesn't seem real when I say that to me. I'm not doing I do I do. Just make sure. I don't mean to discount the massiveness of that and I'm, I'm so fortunate to have been lucky enough to have three beautiful children. But I do still feel quite I don't know, I guess each day I'm just like treading water. So sometimes I don't stop to like acknowledge. Yeah, I've got three beautiful children. Jasper, my son is six. And he has grown up around the valley, which is a really unique, you know, he hasn't been here every every second but he's grown up around it. And He's toured with me and I went back to dancing after I had him dancing Giselle in that regional tour when he was nine months old. So he came out on the road with me and my mom and my mom has been like the biggest To support save, You're everything to me for my whole career. I mean, she was the one who took me to every dance class. And she is not a ballet mom at all. She doesn't know one step from the other. But she has just been there every moment. And so he's been very lucky to travel a little bit with me too, but he has a real appreciation for it. But yes, I have twin girls, Lulu, and Lottie, who are 18 months old now or a few days time. So they're little, very cheeky, very funny. little toddlers at the moment, were in that sweet stage before the that yes, I was. There's no twins in our family. And that came as a bit of a shock. Yeah. And, you know, I, this is something I think this is another part of the ballet world that, you know, I don't think he's really, I guess, thought about talked about, you know, obviously a woman's choice to have children when she has them. How that works with her career is a very, very personal choice. And I absolutely respect that people don't talk about it. But I think it's really interesting. And it's probably very similar for elite athletes. But again, I can just talk about the ballet experience. You know, artistically, you are, finally, after so many years of training, learning the craft, performing, you know, working, just optimizing, you get to your 30s, artistically, you're finally coming into your straps, you're not even there yet, probably you're just coming into your straps, you're coming into that zone, where it all starts to be cohesive and make sense. And you can feel that you can trust yourself, you can go for it. And that's also the years where you need to start about a family. And if you'd like to have one how that might work. And I think that is quite a battle for the dancers in that kind of part of their career, because how can you How could you possibly choose to stop? And then there's always thinking, Oh, what's it going to be like, on the other side, I'll lose a year I've got really good, you know, flow I've got, you know, you might be in a really good trajectory, you know, not just a ranking sort of thing. But just like with the roles, you're getting the impetus, the momentum, you're building your reputation, but just like how you feel in yourself, and then to then I'm just going to stop that now. And just take, firstly, nine months to have a baby. And I'm talking very pragmatically here. I know, this is obviously, you know, there's a whole lot more to it. But I'm just like to say it kind of nine months for that and then getting back into into it. How will that work? Who's my where's the support system? How would it work? It's I think it's a really daunting prospect. And you know, there's always like, Oh, but there's that ballet coming up next year. I've always wanted to do that. We can't dance till we're 60. It's not a career that lasts forever. So, yeah, I feel like you entered. I was lucky. I had Jasper when I was 30. And I was ready, then I was ready to stop. I was ready for it to not be about me. And I left it quite open in that sense. But yeah, I just think and you know, that's, you know, on the flip side, it's such a beautiful thing, that becoming a mum only makes your ballet career so much richer and so much more beautiful. And, you know, you can't know that beforehand. You see that in other people? But yeah, yeah. Also, then, you know, not that long after you might be thinking about retirement, I just think there's like this even like five year window, that's hyper pressure about what choices you're making, when you're making them. He's now a good time. If I'm, if I step away now, to do this, all those other girls are gonna get my impetus. And then when I come back when it's my place, it's, you know, but fortunately, I feel like when I chose to have my children, and when I, when I chose to have, you know, to say, Okay, I think I think I'm happy with what I've achieved here now, and I'd like to look at having another child in this case to that one. I was happy with what I'd achieved and it was too important. For me, it wasn't about what ballet was coming up. It was. It wasn't about that it was I would love the opportunity to have a child, another child and obviously we'd lucky to and so that trumps everything and very fortunately, we're lucky to have him At a beautiful girls. And we're a family of five. I love that so when you when you did have Jasper, did you think that was the end? And you were happy with that? Or were you still thinking I can come back? You know, I've got the support of my mom, I can, I can do this. And I could, I was very lucky that I'd seen women in the company go before me. And quite a lot of them honestly, because David McAllister, the director at the time, really pioneered the maternity leave and process of the Australian ballet, which is, again a front runner of worldwide standards, I could see that it was possible. I was encouraged by that. Again, they were the ballerinas as the company, I was a soloist at the time, so I wasn't on the same level as them. But also like an by level, I also mean, as a principal dancer, as principal artists, you are mostly not dancing every night and and show because you have your two or three Shows a week. This is not every week, but let's just change your Time Season. They're on all the time. But generally speaking, they have their specific shows, and you know, perhaps a bit more saying what they're doing and their timings. When you're Junior in the company, you don't you're in the biggest scene. So you're there rehearsing in the bigger scenes every day that need more time, you're not just rehearsing you and your partner, or can we do that at one today, because I've got to go or you're kind of at the mercy of the group. And then you're at the mercy of all the shows. So it's not about I'll be in the theater, like three nights a week, it's like, I'll be there six nights a week, like every week. So I had worked to a point where I'd got I was really happy with what I achieved. And again, at that point, I had a very clear mind that having a child was the most important thing. And if that was it, I was very open ended, you know if something if he was, you know, sick as a baby, or if I didn't feel like it felt right for me anymore. I would have stopped dancing. I just left it quite open. So a few months after he was born, I started doing some Pilates. And I thought now I've still got it in me and even though we don't have family in Melbourne, I was mum was able to talk with me. So I gave it a go. And then after when I knew I was pregnant with the girls I I then knew like at that first scan appointment, when I saw there was two, and I gasped he started crying. No. I'll never forget that moment. It was just it was such a indescribable, like, so many feelings. Not instantly, but I thought you know what, I think this is life telling me that this is probably time, it's time to enjoy the bit you've got left. And I was just hoping to get to that particular season that I was talking about previously to get to do that ballet died 1929. Yep. Because I thought that was a beautiful full circle. I was really sick and tired. Like really sick with the girls being pregnant with them. So I didn't know if I'd actually be able to make it to that point. But I just tried. Just gave myself each day at a time and I was able to get through those shows before COVID shut us down anyway. So I was able to do those shows. And then and thought they were my last. Yeah, yeah. I want to ask you, you've mentioned feeling sick with the girls. What's it like? Being like dancing when you are pregnant? Like do the does the company sort of make allowances? Do they? Do you have like special things that you're not allowed to do like that? How does it sort of work? Yeah, well, it is quite different for everyone. Obviously, you're not you know, you're not able to sit at your desk and hide away a bit and you know, discreetly go to the bathroom. If you're feeling a bit nauseous and I look it's a very vulnerable time for any woman and I it doesn't matter how many times you've been pregnant what the circumstances are. I think every woman feels very vulnerable until you feel like the pregnancy is safely on its way so I think you That's really tricky to balance with the fact that it's a very public public profession, you're in a leotard. People can look at you and you're not feeling great. You sense that other people can tell that they're still many, many weeks to go before you're in the clear, or you feel comfortable to tell your boss or other dancers. So it's actually a really yucky time. Irrespective if you're tired or sick. It's a very it feels really confronting and both pregnancies I felt really. Yeah, not. I don't enjoy that, you know, it's my first pregnancy with Jasper, I sprained my ankle ankle at seven weeks. And I think that was just a blessing, because I wasn't about maybe nine weeks, and I wasn't coping with just, like, feeling like it was so obvious, but you've got a long time to go, you've got to pretend you're still able to do everything, obviously, at any point you can, you can speak to staff, and they'll absolutely, you know, just keep like, keep that in mind. And, yeah, obviously, that that level of duty of care is absolutely there. But you know, as as a woman, you don't feel comfortable. Just you know, saying I'm eight weeks pregnant, you know, there's still four or five weeks to go before I really feel okay about this. But yes, it can affect the repertoire you're doing and obviously different partner and different lifts and things. Some some girls tell the partner they're dancing with, and some don't, because they don't want their partner to freak out. They're going to do something wrong, and you're guided by your health, your health care professionals, and I had a lovely obstetrician for the girls who said to me when Okay, let's talk about twins. And I just said, I surely can't do anything that I meant to be doing. And he said, No, no, you're and obviously, this is not medical advice. This is just what he said to me in my circumstance. He said, No, no, just you just do what you're doing. That's your life. Normally, just keep doing that. I want you to do that. He gave me some options for the sickness. But other than that, and he was just said, you keep doing that. And I told David at the time, when I was 10 weeks pregnant, I was so close to getting to the shows, but I just had to say no. And he was so excited. I love it. So excited. Yeah, certainly I'm sure in many years, not that long ago gone by it was not at all a comfortable conversation to have. Yeah, I that's something in itself. I always felt like this was exciting news to share. It wasn't like, oh, well, that's, that's going to be a shame. Or why did you choose now like you're just doing so well, there's none of that, in my experience. And so there shouldn't be but I'm sure in the years gone by it was seen as a, you're not as dedicated because you've chosen to do this. Yeah, absolutely. And there probably wouldn't be the option to come back, because people would judge you on that and go, Well, they've chosen that so that you don't come back? No, I think traditionally, absolutely. And David was very clear about making that cultural, you know, a huge, a huge change in that, that it was only supportive, and you don't want to be losing all your top women, just because they they realize they don't want to miss out on something that has a finite time. Our career has a finite time. And so does you know, the years where you are able to have your children and care for them and deal with, you know, their early years. That's what's so tricky. Our job is so demanding to what we often feel as ballet moms feel at odds with is that you know, those early child hood years are so intense also. And you don't want to miss lots of it. And you want to be forming that bond and that connection, but also your career there. They are your best years. And they're kind of endears. So it's like a really tricky. And you just find your way and they do complement each other. But yeah, it's a big, I think it is a big decision to kind of be confident enough. If you do want to continue to ask him to put a pause button and say this is really important that I have a family as well. And then I'm going to come back and I'm still going to be able to do what I can do. Yeah, absolutely. When you found out you're having tweens and you mentioned those emotions. Did you think how's my body going to? I mean, I suppose at that point you weren't thinking Coming back, necessarily. But did you think how's my body going to go? Then? After all the changes? It's going to go through having to at one time, will I will I be able to dance the same way? Or, you know, how will my body come back from that with its, you know, flexibility? All that that kind of stuff. Did you did that sort of? Was that something was you thinking? I guess, because I wasn't thinking about coming back. And, again, I'll just like the timing of it. Literally COVID had just hit Australia. A few days before that. Last season I did opened and we only were able to perform three shows a Friday into Saturday. And then everything was close. That was when everything shut down. Yeah. Sorry about it only recently performed in Melbourne this last week, since then, sorry. Which everyone thinks is actually some kind of miracle. Right? Do they days, you know, give this to them, care for them? And then come back. And, you know, oh, it's the opening of Anna Karenina that was meant to open two years ago. And yeah. But I guess yeah, my mindset wasn't on, on anything regards to ballet. Yeah, when I was, I wasn't absolutely dead set against coming back. But I just in my mind, I was leaning towards that. And I've never actually, you know, really thought too hard about that kind of physical change. In terms of my career, with, you know, with pregnancy, I did, you know, I was pretty concerned about having a twin pregnancy genuinely, it's, it is a high risk. And, you know, we had our own complications along the way. And so nothing's taken for granted. And I think that perspectives enough to be like, you know, if you, if you can't get your leg up pie anymore, it's really, it's really not important. So I was just amazed my body could handle the twin pregnancy generally. Because I'm not, there's not a lot of room. Amazingly, they make room but pretty, pretty uncomfortable at the end. And, but it's also like I, a lot of people think somehow being a valid answer must help you in birth or something. And perhaps it does, but I think more than anything, it's just that you've been so strong your whole life, that on the flip side, your recoveries probably a bit. A bit easier, even from a twin pregnancy, then yeah, maybe someone who hasn't been as active and just so aware of, you know, muscles and how things feel. And yeah, I mean, I think a lot of valid answers. So if they do go back, they try to go back really quickly to dancing and they miss it. Like, I think physically, they miss it, and they miss feeling like that. And they have, you know, a really clear vision and for whatever other reasons, which are their own, they want to dance so quickly again. I mean, I didn't have that. That's just not part of me, but also after the twins. I mean, I wasn't sleeping until they were like 10 months old, proper properly. So I don't know where in that I was meant to be. In that to be thinking about doing ballet. i If there was ever a 10 minutes, I would try to lie on the couch. You know, I wasn't like oh, just do some exercise. It wasn't really my headspace. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I want to bring up I've had my own experiences with postnatal depression. So I can relate to a lot of stories that my guests share. And you've been really vocal about your journey. And I want to commend you for that, because I think it's so important that we talk about it so that it becomes like a normalization of this is, this is something that happens to a lot of people. And it's not something to, you know, be scared of or hide away from, we're going to talk about it so everyone can sort of help each other and, and ways to get through it. If you're comfortable sharing we can you tell us a little bit about that experience. Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, it's, you know, I I agree. It's, it's a topic that I believe should be spoken about more. You know, I can also understand you don't want to put that on to new months in that, oh, you know, it can be this hard and it can be so bad and you know, when they're going through such a transformative experience, and some people are not affected in that way. So you don't want to be Putting that experience onto everyone. But by the same token, there are so many women who are really battling with something that is out of their control. And it's meant to be the happiest time of your life. And it isn't, you feel quite unhappy, really. And on top of that, you're so sleep deprived, and so unable, what feels like so unable to cope, and then the guilt of not feeling like it's the happiest time of your life. There's so many levels of that, and the layers just kind of keep building each day. And it is, it's this, it's this kind of base and I can see, you know, externally now that why you feel like you can't say anything, and I felt that like that at the time, and I have such amazing support. And, you know, Locky is, is my greatest support in every way. And, you know, I had to sometimes some days, I had to feel, find the bravery somewhere in myself to actually say how it was. Because it felt like such a big thing to put on to someone else who's already supporting you, you know, and if that's your mom, or if that's anyone, but just to be like, it's actually really bad. You know, these are actually the thoughts I'm having. And I don't mean to be dramatic, because it's actually is that bad, you know, and mine. My postnatal depression, and anxiety kind of set in quite quickly. And, you know, I know everyone has a different experience. And yeah, I guess I'll just share mine. But yeah, twins is quite a shock. And I was so euphoric, I had this amazing, beautiful birth with them. And yeah, I had natural deliveries. And they were, you know, we, they were almost full term, and they were healthy. And after a really long pregnancy, worrying, like the relief for that. And I couldn't believe my body could do that. And I was like, This is great. And, you know, they were feeding well. And I was managing to feed them, somehow duck tanned and feed them, which is just somehow managed to do that. And you know, so you know, that first bit that first week or so, like, wow, I made two babies. And it's, um, yeah, I was, I actually did feel that pride and that, you know, we were ecstatic. And then, you know, the actual care of twins, and obviously, multiple births, you actually are just statistically at a higher risk of postnatal depression, because it's just hard. Yeah. And I was very lucky, I had people around me who said it like that, you know, and I had a really great obstetrician in Brisbane, where we had the girls eventually, I remember the six week appointment we had, I had it at four weeks, because we had to go back to Sydney at that time. So like, he could go back to work. And we had it a bit early. So it was even earlier than you know. And I walked in, and he was like, how he going and I said, like, death warmed up, and we'd had a terrible night, 20 minutes sleep the whole night. I was feeding them. At that point, trying to establish as is to better at once is one everyone says put them on a schedule schedule, put them on a schedule. And for someone who's had a schedule my whole life, like I, I would take to that like a duck to water but these babies still didn't know that. willing to do it. And I'm still feel like there's a part of me that, you know, was was perhaps keeping twins for a reason because I can stick I'm determined, I will make them do the same things at once. But not at that stage. They you know, and they're so you know, their tummies are so little and all of the, you know, you're up padding and tap, you know, do they need more and all of that, but times two. And so after even just four weeks of that, and no sleep. And I was feeding them so that's exhausting, obviously. And it really came on like a, you know, like a freight truck, even by that point. And then we moved back to Sydney. And I met a really wonderful, very just by chance. My maternal child health nurse there was incredible and a really important person in my journey because straightaway, even though she'd never met me, and I told her our, our story, and you know, my I hadn't seen my son Jasper, who was in Melbourne with his dad. And he'd been there 10 weeks and because the borders were closed with COVID Oh, yeah. And it's like, right, so you're here. You had the girls in Brisbane, because you had to fly up, go up, drive up there do hotel quarantine because of the risk. There was a risky birth situation anyway. So we had family support, so you had to leave your son in mail. When you're here in Sydney, you've been around a bit, you've just had twins, feeding them. And she's just like, this is, this is a lot. And she's like, No, you're not around your friends like, and you know, my work friends are my family. You're not around you use your usual people. You're at a really high risk here. And, and I was like, really? Ah, no, I'll be right. And she's, and she was like, no, no, we're, we're going to look at this. And I'm going to tell you like in a really great pragmatic way with someone who's so sleep deprived, and emotionally drained, needs to sometimes hear it so bluntly. And she's like, it's, you know, twins, it's about twin management. And, you know, I was like, but I meant to be like, loving them and like caring, and like looking at their toenails. And I'm like, I don't even know what their toes look like. That feeling of like, how much your adoring them and like staring at them. And with twins, you feel like, in fact, I can see you're getting, you're trying to get to know two people at once. So you're getting double the input, like feedback, but you can't process so I felt like it took me so much longer to know which one liked what and which one needed and to feel equally as close and in connection with an in tune with both, because it was just like, kind of like not a production line. But it's just it's just all routine. Yeah, yeah, it was. And, and that was to our to get to a point that it was to our benefit, so that you weren't up all day and all night with one baby at a time. So it was all working towards that. But to make that happen is is like hard work like effort, like one's up, okay, get the other one out. Okay, feed, that one's going out, put the other one down. Like it's, it's not just go with the flow. And I thought being a second pregnancy second baby, I'd love to be that like go with the flow parent, which ultimately probably doesn't suit my personality. But to just be more relaxed and to know it all passes. And to know, you get through it. And but it was it was such a different experience. So how could I and I, I really needed so much support. And I'm just to this day, every day. So grateful I had access to support. I know it makes me so sad to know that there's women out there who just don't have that support, or someone saying you need, I'm going to funnel you into a system and you're going to go to that mother baby and or you're going to have this appointment, or we're going to squeeze you into a telehealth to talk to someone because right now, that's crucial. It's not just like, oh, you know, four weeks time we'll do. It's like, right now this needs to happen. And very, very fortunately, with twins, in those sorts of areas, you do sometimes get a little bit of a, you get a priority. It's like we know this, this is yes has to happen. Yeah, which I you know, I was really grateful for that so I had people checking on me, and I felt so incapable. And just, you know, yeah, just so out of my depth. And, you know, I was just like, I think back and it is an every time. It's like, it's like a dream, like, and not always a good one. But it's like and I with my son, he came up to see us and I'd you know hadn't seen him it's so long, which was just so hard in itself. And he was meeting his new sisters and he had so much energy and I had so little to give him and it's just you know, there was always a baby that needed something and you know, he's been so patient and had to adjust but it took me a long time, especially with how I was feeling and how low I was feeling. And so anxious. You know, even when I got to sleep, I couldn't sleep. I didn't know again until I'd spoken to my nurse and to the psychologists I eventually spoke to that I that that feeling of rage or like anger, but mostly that that rage that like volcanoes up inside you and you just need like a you know, the pressure valve just needs to release is is a real, real sign of anxiety you You just think I'm just a horrible person. And I'm just so mean to everyone. And I'm so angry, and it's not fair. And why am I so awful? And he's like, No, it's the pressure release of you're so anxious. And I think in my career, I'm so used to dealing with pressure. And even if you're anxious, you're able to deal with it. Either squash it, compartmentalize it, do something with it. I didn't have an outlet. I didn't have time. You know, anyone talks about moms having time for themselves. It's like, that was a joke. When was like, understandably, it's just not, it's also not a fact, when he had young twins, and leaving the house, and people would talk to me at the cafe, and I just, I wouldn't even know how to talk. Like, I just, I just looked down, please don't talk to me, please. Lovely, have more and just like so. And, and you feel and it's another point where you just let I just don't feel that. Like they're so beautiful, and I love them. But my experience is just like, I can't get through this. I'm I'm just floundering. And that mismatch between what what people expect or think, is another layer of like, RC like I should be. And if I could just like what I said earlier about, but if I could just work harder if I could just think differently. I'm sure I could turn this around. But really, I needed a lot of help and support. And in time sleep. Yeah. Yeah, I needed an iron infusion. I needed, you know, there was a whole plan that I was very lucky, multiple people, you know, and I had an incredibly supportive partner who sat there and looked me in the face. And you know, how old were you when I said awful things, you know, really was like, I don't like having to say this. But if I get this out, it has less power. And then we could kind of like, move through it. And so over time, and I noticed too, this is something that it feels like too much to be like, I need an hour to do my telehealth with my psychologist, you know, especially with a young family and Jasper was at school. And there was always a reason I could have just cancelled that I was lucky to get into a psychologist with the Gates Foundation in Sydney. And so that really worked, especially not having to go out of the house. If I had to go to an appointment, I probably wouldn't have prioritized it again. I was lucky in that COVID time that telehealth was a thing. And yet, when I dropped a few weeks, it wouldn't happen immediately. But it would start to come in again, I'd feel that that ends all day anxiety. And as soon as one of the girls would wake up before I wanted her to it was so frustrating. And why are you? Why are you not doing what I thought you're meant to be doing. And now I have to get the other one out and restart again. And it's school pick up tight and just it would my coping mechanisms would start to fall away again. And obviously, everything feels like it falls apart. So definitely talking to someone, you know, weekly became a priority. And if that meant I heard, you know, my mom with the girls, and they're both screaming as hard as that was, yeah. It, I had to at some in some way. Prioritize that hour. And then once the girls were able to be in a routine that was more consistent, they didn't sleep as well as my son ever did. And, you know, every time they went through a sleep regression, one of them would always hit it worse than the other. And, and you know, not that long ago, you know, one of my girls was up for like six hours a night for a couple of weeks. And you're just like, What do I do? How How is ones just sleeping? And but you what do you do with a baby for six hours says every Monday, every overwhelmed of all time. And of course you get through it. But I could get through that because I'm in such a better place. And I've had some sleep. And it seems so simplistic to say, Oh, you just need time and sleep. But really, fundamentally, they're two really important things that help you with young babies. Yeah, absolutely. Sleep is sleep is king. You just get anxious about it. And so I'm like set on how everyone's sleeping how the baby's sleep times to this case, which it was ultimately everything. How you're sleeping, how my son like anyone who'd make a noise that would potentially you know, a lot of symptoms of postnatal depression and anxiety I you think all you feel pretty, pretty sad and pretty low bit unmotivated. You're not enjoying it as much. A lot of the Symptoms like I couldn't handle light. I couldn't handle sound my son's footsteps running down the corridor. We're just like, Ah, it's just so loud in here one night, I was asking people to turn off the lights and the TV. And everyone was so lovely and, you know, receptive, but they looked at me like, oh my gosh, yeah, it's really not that bad. But the sensory overload for someone who was already at the end of it, like wit's end on every level, I think was just too much of a trigger. When I, I had my first son 14 years ago, and we, you know, you go to the prenatal classes, and this guy came in from Beyond Blue, I think, Oh, I can't remember where he was from, he might have just been from the hospital. So basically, he, he said to us, you're going to have times when you feel beat down, it's going to be hard. You're going to have, you're going to feel you're gonna get the baby blues. So good luck with that. And that was what, that's what they told us about, about postnatal depression. And it was like the intensity, oh my gosh, actually can be. And also, by this point, for anyone, when you're having a child, it's the responsibility you feel like, is overwhelming at times. Even though this is something you desperately wanted in that it doesn't change the fact that it's a huge responsibility that everything to do with this little person, or these two little people, it is about you and your decision. And every decision you make, you know, it's I think, trivialize it like that, compared to, obviously, you know, what it's like, it's couldn't, couldn't be, you know, more polar opposite to how intense it feels. It's absolutely not baby blues. And you know, that's what I say to anyone I know, who's having a baby or has had a baby, you know, like, I'm up in the night often anyway, so if you need to call anyone, please just know, you can always message me or call me or anything, because it's, it's not trivial. And there are some moments in time that you might actually just need someone. And as someone who, it doesn't matter what you've done in your life previously, as someone who by that point usually feels a bit capable are a bit like, you know, I can manage things to feel so incapable is, and so at a loss is such an unsettling, despondent feeling, let alone then feeling like that, and being responsible for someone else. Hmm. Yeah. I want to touch on when you said, when you spoke to your, the nurse that you said was really, really good. When she sort of told you all these things, these were massive things that were impacting, and, and you sort of said, I'll be right. Were you feeling like at that point? And you don't have to answer this if I'm trying too much. Did you feel like because I'm sort of trying to relate it to my experience? Did you feel like you had to pretend it wasn't happening? Or did you really genuinely feel like it was wasn't happening? I don't think I was aware how bad it was, even though I felt really bad. I knew it was I think it's like everyone has that pride. And I think I thought I could get through it. Or a bit like if I just do this in this a nice it'll, it'll go away or or it will get better. Yeah, I guess that was her point was just, you know, it's it doesn't have to be okay. You have so much going on, not to mention a pandemic. Yeah. Parents of the last two years, have not been able to access for their children for themselves for their families, the same levels of care, the lack of, you know, the lockdowns, the restrictions that the people popping over the all of those little things that at such a critical time, might be that one person you spoke to who you got to have a hug with, or might be, you know, all of that wasn't there. And I think I'm used to coping with quite a lot. I'll be the first to say I don't cope very well with change, or with anything going not to plan. Even though a whole lot of things in life in my life. You know, like, really there's been A lot of change and a whole lot of things that I've actually had to cope with. I think I cope externally very well. But internally, I, I battle how well I'm coping. And also I you know, you don't want to be a downer for everyone. I think that's another layer that no, we will women who are feeling, you know, like they are postnatally depressed, that you don't want to be a burden on other people. You want to live up to what you're meant to be living up to, you know, yeah, that is so true. You just not. And again, sometimes it has to be as plain as day is that. And also that first appointment, I think, you know, I had all these questions about the babies and you know, this feeding this and, you know, sleeping in their tummies, all this stuff, you had this list of things like all every new moms, dads, and she's like, I don't want to talk about babies. It was so amazing. So experience is I want to talk to you my mind anxious me, I just wish we could get to the things I want to talk about. So I'm getting to know both of us, myself lucky, our stories, how we got to this point, and you know, obviously with the traveling and the quarantine, and all of the know driving on the highway and all of this and Jasper and and she's like, you know, it's a pyramid structure. And she said, everyone thinks that the parents are, you know, come last, and there at the bottom, but it's actually the other way around. If you're at the top, and it filters down. If you guys aren't okay, no one's okay. And then when it came to me, if you're not, okay, no one else is okay. And that's not a burden to you, that's just where we need to put you in this picture. Because you're going to be putting yourself down here and everyone else comes first. And that the baby's needs come first. And as someone who does like perfection in that way, whenever they'd cry, I'd feel like a failure. When I couldn't settle them, I'd feel like a failure. And like lots of mums do because that's your feedback. And you equate that to how well you're doing at being a mum. And when you've got two of them at once doing that. Or when you've just got one settled and the other you think your status quo is constantly being disrupted. So therefore, you must be doing a terrible job. And someone else would be doing this better than you. But she, she kind of was the right person for me to be saying, you know, they're going to cry sometimes, and you're not going to like it. But if that means you got to eat something that is okay. Because if you don't put any of your needs first with twins, you will never ever look after yourself. And that's going to trickle down. And that's no good for anyone. So I had to relearn I have to actually in my very sad, anxious, not really, you know, really fuzzy how fuzzy you feel. Yeah, you are in that, that place like other than the tiredness, but there's a fuzz that, you know, you can't even make a sentence. Even still, I had to with practice with time, we support and someone checking in and going over this, again, really learn about putting some of my needs first, to then be able to help other people. That's it's a massive, a massive thing. To, for someone to ask you to do that. And then more massive to actually put into practice. That's, it's huge, isn't it? Because that's not how we're not, we're not wired to think that way. We've we've just got to give given given given give. So we kind of do feel, perhaps all mothers always do. But I do you sense in this time when I talk to my mom and you know, women of that age, that the pressure younger parents now put on themselves to be everything for their children. every second and every moment is a teachable moment. And, you know, if you did it this way, they won't have tantrums because they'll have all the food and you know, because you will have practiced these strategies and all of this and you sat with your child and looked him in the eye and all of that, you know, someone's having a meltdown in Kohl's and you've got to get back to work in like half an hour. It's really hard to be that parent. And we have that vision in ourselves. Like I want to be this parent and myself. I wanted to be that parent and then I had new born twins and I thought I knew some some things about having a baby turns out with twins it's a totally different story. And I just did absolute like sleep deprivation doesn't you know and that's what I just you know, I can't even believe I got through and any twin parents is because it's such a. Anyway triplets. quarters don't even single babies are really tricky to and it's, it's separating that like having that difficult baby or that tricky baby does not relate to how well your mothering like, it is not the same thing it's so hard to. And again, you need other people drumming that into you, reminding you and I, you know, I'm lucky that I have, I have those people around me. So I've found my way through and to, you know, not just to an end that big story. Sorry, very long story positive, but I do feel like and not that I wish this on any other mother, ever. But I do feel like the enjoyment I get from my girls. And the joy I have with them now that I had been through that experience of being so down. It really is amplified because I see it. And I remember when I first started feeling better over time, and then you have your bad days again. And then you know it's incremental. But when I actually enjoyed them, I just like cried with happiness. I just thought, oh my gosh, I'm enjoying them. Oh my gosh, like, and I think the appreciation for that was so huge. And I you know, I know there's challenging times ahead, children, but I do, I do have a greater sense of that appreciation for that, you know, enjoyment. And the present illness after feeling so not present. So spacey, so unable to be in the moment because you don't even know where you are. And sometimes you just wished you are asleep. Most of the time. Do not thank you for sharing that. So candidly, I appreciate it. And I'm sure there's a lot of people that listening that are going to kind of take a lot from it. So thank you. Sorry, that that's the only you know, that's what not that I mean, but I do feel like that is the one one blessing of going through that experience is that you were able to help so many other people by sharing yours. And that is the only reason I have you know, I've shared about that in my own in my own space. And you know, I'm very lucky that I've had that support and I just like I said before, I just so hope that other women have that too. And if that means one day when they're having a really bad day and they happen to read something you know, which has happened to me before to you read something on a particularly bad day and might just help you see that evening witching hour, just somewhat a bit differently for that one day. If I can help one person one day by them reading something, then I'm I'm really glad. Yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom, if my mom Alison Newman. After you start to feel, well, you're enjoying these moments and things are feeling feeling improved for you. When did you get that spark that you thought? I'm gonna go in depth again? Well, I wasn't actually feeling much better when I first started thinking about that. Yeah. Yeah, so dancing again, in, in a kind of condensed fashion, which I'm not good at, as you can see it again, was part of me feeling well, again, and I couldn't have known that at the time. Like I said, I really didn't think I would dance again. And the most exercise I would get would be when I was in the girls room, and they might have just like settled and I didn't want to open the door and the light come in. So I'd lie on the floor. And do you know, my pelvic floor exercises, that's that's the extent of where I was at. And that wasn't so I could get back on stage that was just to be a functional person again, and I have a really incredible Women's Health physio, which I also very much recommend to any any woman anywhere, no matter what you've done in your life. But you know, that was something that was just good for me. That was not, I'm just going to start with this because that'll be helpful when I'm dancing. There was no dancing thoughts. I would go over ballets when I was like rocking them to sleep in in their room, or like settling them like sometimes a random step would come out. But I was thinking about my retirement speech more than anything. And then COVID At the time I thought I probably won't even have anything and then I thought that's so sad like After 18 years like that, it just, you know, some people choose to have it that way. And I wouldn't have had a fanfare but I always thought when I retired, I'd have my family there. But yeah, I think about what I'd say. And they're the thoughts that would come and go in my, you know, spacey state that was my dance world. And so it was actually people around me mainly Locky. Because he's so supportive of me and my career. And it would be very easy to say, Oh, this is too hard. Donna, you know, Donna, you know, he tours, obviously, he's very busy with his job. And he loves his job. And, you know, he, you know, that's his dream job. And he is so good at it. It's, you know, we love watching him and but just, you know, the, the, we both have very demanding jobs in the eyes. Yeah, there was never a question of like, are from anyone that my mind was less significant in any way, or that it would be easier if I stopped dancing, because then that would work better for the family or just be easy, at some point, that probably will become part of the reason you know why we shift into a different way of how our family works. But just because I'd had two babies was not a reason for that to happen. So here's the first person who wanted to see me dance again, if that was something I wanted to do. So he he was very supportive over time in his beautiful way, not in your face just a little bit every day. Go in and have the conversation, you've got a contract still, your position is there. It's not trying to get a new job. It's your job. It's your position, have a chat, but not like what how could I talk? This is ridiculous. Don't even think about that. Go in and have a chat with David David Hallberg, our new director. So this was a new director for me, so I'm gonna who doesn't know me. And that was quite daunting in itself. So eventually, by about seven months, the company was in Melbourne at the time, they just had a Sydney season that somehow managed to squeeze in with COVID. And I arranged an appointment and decided to go in and you know, I could have not gone that day, I felt terrible, you know, I was going to miss a feed from the girls. And, you know, they'd never been left do that anyone else? Really? My mom was there lucky. I don't know if lucky was there that day. But yeah, it just all felt too hard. Of course, it's too hard. You know, there's so many other things. When you're in that, like baby space, that's too hard, leaving the house, one of them any variable for someone who is very much struggling with the day to day, a variable is too hard. Like go in and have a chat. So I put, like proper clothes on which I hadn't done and drove my car, which I also hadn't done in a while. And, you know, all of these things, and it felt like stepping out into the world again. And that was incredibly I remember, also being in this state I was, it was a sensory overload all of it, like the light, the sounds, just everything's coming into the carpark going in the left, I felt sick. Coming up, you know, it wasn't like, Oh, I'm home. And this is, you know, this is so lovely. I spent all my life here, it's, I was not in that stage. And also things had really moved on. That building felt different. I'm so glad I did, obviously. And David was very gracious in probably accepting me in that state. And, you know, I'm also a new person to him, and I just kind of flat out said, I've had a really, really rough time, and I didn't think I'd dance again. And he's like, you know, what would you like to talk about? And I said, I just I think I might want to try. You know, it wasn't a hugely confident telling yourself. I might want to try. It's like, what would that look like? I don't know. I've run out. I couldn't look him in the eye. And, you know, I just I was a shell of myself. And he just said, Well, how about you to start somewhere? I said, I don't know what, what I could come back to, you know, I was thinking like roles or seasons or and he's like, just don't even think about that. Just start somewhere, just babysit. And I was like, you know, you feel like you've got to offer something. I'll, I'll work I'll come back and I'll do that or I'll try for that series that just just don't yeah, don't think that far ahead. Just just in me Reality, if I'd actually thought about everything I have to do to get in this building every day, and to tour, I would not have gone in that day at all. So it was absolutely right on all fronts. So then I started coming in. And that was my therapy, I guess I'd come in and do Pilates kind of conditioning exercises that are quite specific what we do here. And, you know, I've done them for years. And I was very lucky that everyone knows me very well here. And in terms of, you know, the artistic health team, know me very well. I know how I function best and they weren't in my face. Some, you know, there's some mums amongst them. And they, they know, they knew instinctively what I needed. Sometimes that was just done. This is done a space, she's coming in today. And she's, you came in today, and I was like, and they're like you came in today. And then I start doing my little toe push up to the theater events. Yeah. And, you know, they could sense the days, I just needed space for myself. And that's essentially what it was. Because if I was home, I was always doing something I couldn't, we just coming back from Jessa, it was different, I could do a lot at home and he was asleep. The girls were still up and down all the time. There was always something to do food to cook a snack to get Jasper to, like, I had to go somewhere to have my that my time. And so that started like that incrementally. Then I joined our like daily training class. And that was, again, usually we work with Megan Connolly, who's our rehab coach, you normally go in with her and you know, do a couple of weeks, just one on one. And she's like, so you're gonna go into class today. And I said, Oh, but like, what are we going to do? And she's like, on in and I just go in there. I was like, no, that's just like, this is a studio with people, other people. And like a teacher and a penis. And I was like, I just, I can't, I can't like so many people in the eye, it really, you know, was a full body experience trying to get myself back into the world. And I did that by coming back into ballet, into something I knew. And that even like, all at that point. And even to vary up to when I did my first shows, I had to think if I don't get to do shows, if I don't get if I stop before I get to the like the goal or the cherry on top that I've this has been a successful worthy process, because this is what needed to happen for me. So it's more about the process rather than the end goal. It was about all those steps, and how that was like your therapy. It was actually it was and my maternal child health nurse had commented on that so much earlier. So how are we going to get you back to work? Like, that's just can't too hard. It's just we're gonna have to think about if you want, but we'll have to think about that. And I was not in that headspace. Whereas someone like her externally so much experience, I think could see pinpoint. This, this woman is going to need even for a short window of time to find a part of herself that has been so not thought about. And so I started in class for a little bit. Some days, I'd have to leave because I was overwhelmed by it wasn't even the ballet, the actual dance and everyone's like, Oh, it looks like you've never left and I'm standing there like a shell of myself and can't even express how different I felt. Physically. I was going through the motions. So and that's what I think is is tricky externally, after 18 month sort of dancing. Twins. i And I don't mean to say this, in a sense, it's precocious, but I was actually just going through the motions giving the actual dancing side of things such little thought because it was actually so much more a mental battle for me to stay in the room. People are there. They're going to look at you sometimes their eyes. Okay, you did it like, yeah, yeah, it was it just Yeah, it's like your body just almost had its own experience there. It knew the muscles knew what to do. It just did its own thing. And you could let it do that. In the meanwhile, the you know, inside your head. All this is happening. And yeah, and it's hard. People don't say that. Like literally, like you said, they said, it's like you never left. So they're only seeing this outside and they're not, you know, seeing the whole picture. So yeah, it's the realizations that come to me when I'm dancing. That's always been the case. But especially in that time and even still, the distance I have from being at home when I'm At the ballet, and when I'm dancing, things come to me and I solve problems in my head. And yeah, you know, I have these epiphany moments all the time about my kids and about mothering. When I'm at the bar. It comes to me then. Ah, so it is there's something about that. And maybe just because I've grown up doing it, and there's live music the first day, when someone started, we have, you know, a live pianist. So they start playing plays, and they improvise every day, all these exercises, and I just, like, my mouth was open, I was just like, oh my gosh, that's right. So I'm gonna just plays music for your day. Someone amazing, just plays music, music all day for you. was a really profound one. But I think I could unravel a lot of what had happened over the last 18 months, by being in that space. Yeah, wouldn't have to do at home for sure. Or even, you know, gone for a run or something it might have might have worked that there was something about, like you said, my body being a little bit on autopilot, that my mental chat could start to unravel a little bit. Okay, the space, it's, it's almost like, like a meditation in some ways that, like, I mean, I know, traditional meditation, you lay down, and then your body's at rest, so your mind can work. But sort of, in that way, like, your body's just doing its thing. You don't have to think about it. And then yeah, all this stuff, you're open to process, like it's a problem solve. And I feel very, I had such like a vehicle actually, that was way too daunting at the start, but actually became, you know, the art form that I've loved forever, actually, was the way into, you know, the new version of me that was all put together. Every kind of come before. Yeah, that's, that's incredible. It's like it truly is a part of your identity. And it just needed it was like that. Yeah, like I keep coming back to this word therapy was and that nurse was was experienced enough to see that, that that was going to be part of your healing was to get that part of your life back again. Yeah. And that's how long you know, who knows, and it's not about that. And I was lucky enough to be able to, after Melbourne, got out of the last longtown last year, we had a gala celebration season in December, it was a 10 day runner shows at the Art Center. And I was lucky enough to be ready at that point. I I'd only just come back full time. And so that was a personal choice, too. I extended my maternity leave beyond the 12 months, because I wasn't ready yet to leave the girls. I wasn't ready to have my schedule dictated to. I still needed to have because everything just took longer. And with twins, it just does. I think for everyone to find their feet for the tweens to settle into life like everything. Yeah, yeah, but certainly I wasn't ready to be after that long fighting to be there and enjoying them to then just evacuate and be at work you know, for 1012 hour days. So I took a really slow slow ride in and that meant I was working Training Training obviously you can't just turn off on day one. So from you know, from when they was eight months maybe not wasn't actually was like 10 months old. That's when I started some physical stuff and then I did all of that on my own time on my own schedule and then the week before shows opened as I'd planned but they everyone knew but I was like that's when I finish things that you've got a week and then a week of shows and I'm going on holiday Yeah, so again like compartmentalizing things like right from the start how lucky was saying just go into a chat and then you had you had David just saying well just try the sword you know it was it's breaking that down because the overwhelm if you think about everything is just too much it's just it's not it's not good yeah. The topic of mum guilt in and I guess everyone has different views. Use of what that is some people think it's a load of rubbish, which is great. Other people have like really relate to it, which is fine. Everyone's different. Have you ever had any experience with that? Or your thoughts about that are definitely have experience with mom guilt. That's something I feel all mums do face. And I will I'm certainly I certainly do. And a lot of the ballet mums here, that's a big one for us. Obviously, feeling guilty all the time serves no one. So I'm aware of that, too, that it's, it's a, it's a sensitive feeling that isn't really helping anyone. But what we do here at the ballet feels very self centered and self absorbed. It's such a giving up form, but our experience of how hard it is and the work we need to put in and the conditioning and the focus. And the I've got to get to the theater at this time. Because I've got to get my hair, I've got to do my makeup, I've got to think about my steps. And all of that changes after you become a man, you minimize everything and into the small amount of time as you can. But there's still the sense that I'm doing something for myself here. Like I'm, I'm focusing on myself, and I want that role. And I want to do that on stage and every one. I want to feel that. And you can't help but think I've got these little people who are like, Hey, Mom, I want you to but yeah, you know, so I very much relate to that. Whilst also understanding it's not really helpful. But there was something that I come back to, and what has often come from people reminding me and then I try to repeat it for myself is that your children, seeing you as a whole person is really important. And your children, especially with what we do seeing, seeing, you're so dedicated and so passionate, and loving something so much. What brought to you is really, really important to especially as a mother. And I think the uniqueness of what we do and touring half the year, the you know, the changeability, that pulling kids out of school or daycare and taking them to Sydney for two months, can feel like a bit of a liability and a bit of a, you know, kind of mixing their life up so much. And you know, with my son, I felt really guilty, he hasn't been able to do regular swimming lessons. And he hasn't been able to do soccer. And you know, I can't always be the one at the school gate. And even though when I was at home with the little girls with my twins, and he started school, when I stood at the school gate, I felt so out of place, I felt, I just felt so out of place. I just, I just I just yeah, it was actually a really uncomfortable feeling. And he didn't actually really care if I was if it was me there or not. Some days he does, and he is but he's also had such a colorful, interesting childhood already. I tried to flip that round, to say actually, he's had exposure to things that other kids haven't had. Yes, they've had playdates regular playdates, they go to soccer every Saturday, and the routine of that, and, you know, maybe the social constancy of that, you know, he hasn't had, but he's also had exposure to so many other things. So in context of my work and knowing it's not forever, knowing at some point, and probably, you know, by the time the girls are at school, I will be at the school gate every day, makes this time even more precious. And, you know, I do hope that, you know, they can see that their mom, you know, in did look after themselves, so that I could look after them. I do hope at some point in their lives, they can, they can see how valuable that was. And I might Santi now at the ballet, and he just had the best home ever so football with with the dancers, and that's something that other kids don't get to do. That's it. Yeah, absolutely. It's about although I think it's um, it relies again, on, you know, routinely reminding yourself of the value that your your art and your work is giving to you, and then how that's trickling down into your family. I definitely have more energy and more, more empathy, more support, more, more valuable time, if I've just had a bit of time for myself. At the moment that time is being spent doing something that I love, which is dancing. And at some point in the future, I have to find something else that that time is for so that that can still trickle down. Yeah, absolutely. You have you have that thing that feels that pick up and then you can you can give to others. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's good. You said about that. Because yeah, one of the things I like to mention is that it's, it is important for children to say, what their mums and dads are doing. I didn't matter what didn't actually mean to ask this, I was about to say something different. But as you mentioned before the girls like see their dad on the telly like, that's just like, did they? Did they make the connection? Do they like this? Yeah, yeah. I mean, probably assisted by the fact that like, hey, look, this study the girls, this is something I think all kids love music and dancing and our all of our kids do, but especially the girls are so absorbed in music and dance. And I mean, maybe some of those genetic I found with Queens, one of the only ways especially when they're early, you know, when they're lying on their little playing mat. That was one thing to keep them both entertained at once, which wasn't holding both of them at once was to lay them on the floor. And I'd put Wiggles, you know, playlists on and dance around like a little crazy person, you know, crazy person and try and sing not as well as their dad. And they would kick their little legs and you know, smile and giggle and that, you know, they obviously had exposure really, really early on to that. And still those particular wiggles that I've obviously drummed into them are their favorites. I you know, I love that they, I love so much, you know, we at 410 Every day we put you know, ABC Kids on and that's when we will design that's our little 10 minutes of you know, TV. They start dancing around and you know, Emma twirls around and they're, they're twirling around and they're trying to actually trying to do a sign language. It's amazing what young babies are picking up because there's me involved like, yeah, it's how they are learning because their music and dance involved. It's so innate. Yeah, I think it's really lovely. Obviously, Daddy's out there too. And that's pretty special. And yeah. We're taking them to the wiggles concert next week. And by we, I mean me. And I can't wait. Because even when they were five months old, I think, you know, I was on the sides with the girls. And my mom and Lulu especially was transfixed, and you know, five months old for 45 minutes. Oh, yeah, totally transfixed. And I think the power of music and dance is so, so beautiful. And I'm so glad they're growing up. So, so all amongst it. Yeah, it is beautiful, isn't it, it's like, like you're saying before, it might not be the, you know, going to soccer every week or the, you know, whatever it might be. But it's you're giving the children such an incredible life, just this exposure to things that other children might not get. And it's just, it's so awesome. It is. And it's challenging, obviously, and logistically, it's a jigsaw puzzle, turn it upside down and back to front and try put it back together again, every day is like that we have so many moving parts of our lives function. were two of us trying to tune out as well. It's just pretty, pretty full on and we're desperate school and trying to keep that consistent. And but it but it is it's it's it's good. I think I always try to remember to this is such a short amount of time. Yet ultimately, it's the best time for it to be like this. Yeah. Jess was starting us kit this year. And he'll he'll he'll do that, you know, he'll do that in years to come. He'll have enough soccer on Saturdays and he will get to your swimming lessons. But this is a unique time where I'm able to still do this. I can't do this again in 10 years time, being the level I'm at and want to be in 10 years time. So I might say you can but I'm, you know, I'm more than every day. I'm aware of that. You know, I do I have the best job in the world. And I get to go on stage and be different people and have world class orchestras playing music for me and do something I felt mostly quite natural doing my whole life. You know, it's it's hard to say no to that. And yes, hopefully my children can benefit from that too. Yeah, absolutely. I've got a wrench and the there was a beautiful article. Sydney Morning Herald where they took all these amazing photos of your family dressed up, and there's this one photo. I think it's Lulu. Like you've got this beautiful dress on and you're holding it and she's like, whatever like her facial expression. It's like, Oh, come on. I just every time I look at that, I just think she's in this world she gets, she knows what's going on. And she's like, Yeah, I'm in front of the camera again. With that particular photo, I know you're talking about it was one of her actually smiling. Yeah, they didn't using it. So when I saw that particular shot, when she's looking at, yeah, like, whatever. I thought it's a bit of a shame. But for whatever reason, maybe my leg looked better. Or, you know, the dress looks, you know, had a bit more flow or something. But I yeah, I did think that oh, interestingly enough, she's the one who loves her dress, and you put it on and she doesn't actually turned around. I just find those things. So interesting. Yeah. I don't know what Mommy does. Really. They don't. They haven't been able to come in most of my friends here at work. haven't even met the girls because of COVID. And, yeah, we're still very careful here, obviously. So those sorts of things aren't allowed. But yeah, they actually only know dancing through what they know themselves and through Wiggles. Um, but it's I love watching them just like, you know, dance along. Yeah, yeah. No, I just love I had to mention that. It's really funny. She's, she's really theatrical one. Currently in our Melbourne season of Anna Karenina, which was meant to be in the 2020 season, but has been postponed several years. So it's so lovely to have been able to get the this ballet on here. It actually made it to Adelaide last year and a little sneaky little week. It's a big, bold, intense drama. So beautiful, amazing costumes, scenery, a real modern day story of such a classic novel, obviously. So we're performing out here now. And we move that to Sydney, in April. Yeah, for three weeks. And we open also in Sydney in May a massive production called Kunstkammer, which is a whole huge evening of work. It's an amazing show from Netherlands dance theater and dt, which is the premier absolute, contemporary dance creative Maverick company from the last 60 something years. So this concept of Karma is a collection of incredible, four different choreographers who came together to create this incredible work, and there's so much in it. So it's a big undertaking for the company, but an absolute gift for us. No one else in the world has performed this ballet. So to have this in Australia is like having, you know, the rarest gem. So we're currently working on that at the moment, which is really exciting. You know, the some of the choreographers, I never thought I would ever be in the same room as them. Last year when we started workshopping and are just learning the early bits and I thought this is already enough like day one I've seen in the room with Paul Lightfoot. I never thought that would happen. This is unbelievable. So that's so exciting. We're doing that in Sydney in May. We bring that to Melbourne in June. So Melbourne gets to see that too. And then we open a ballet called Harlequinade here, which is a great commedia dell'arte, ballet, slapstick kind of comedy, but really clever, lots of dancing. Really funny, a real family sort of fun piece, which I'm really excited about. It's the sort of dancing that I get really excited by it's virtuoso, kind of pumping and turning and lots of fast movement but also lots of comedic timing and storytelling, which you know, I think is challenging but so, so rewarding. And then we have to finish off the first half the year we have our Adelaide season actually of counterpoint which is double bill, a double bill of Raymonda and which is a classical to to act. And then I got, I got artifacts, we really emphasize artifact suite, which is kind of like, again, a ballet that you know, the Eastern invite to have in their repertoire is a real coup. Yeah, that pushes dancers to like next level. So a whole lot of work. So, so you are performing something but then learning something else at the same time. Like you're doing different man that must does that screw with your head a bit, though, that you're like, which character am I today? That if you're doing the same dance, but several roles in the same dance that is quite tricky for the brain. Yeah, but I find the role is in the music. So whatever musics on it just getting to Yeah, we only did we did two versions of Swan Lake back to back. And that was a bit like, Oh, which one are we in? This one was modern was restoration, or, Oh, it's kind of similar, but not quite hit it in a music. But again, that's a skill that you kind of have to pick up along the way. And that's the challenge as well. But yeah, it's that's the sort of thing that I think people don't realize they do. Yeah, I never realized that till you just said that then, because I think musically, we're certainly my experience, you've got a show coming up. So you work on all this stuff for that show, then that show finishes, then you start for your next thing. But your world is just constantly constantly going, revolving door. And the different dance styles really challenge your body in different ways. And it's often when you start a new dance style, like as in a new piece of repertoire, it often you get quite sore or a bit, you know, using different muscles to do what you have been doing, and it feels a bit not quite the same as last night, and you're all caught up to my coin. How do I do that today? It is a constant challenge in that respect. But also it's the richness of the work we get to perform in the company here is that it's so diverse. And we actually are all very versatile dancers and very capable of that. So yeah, yeah, there was always lots to look forward to. And that's why you know, if you're not in a season this season heavily, you're there's something coming up always to think about. So we're very lucky. It's like a feast for us here. Everyone's very jealous overseas, how many shows we do? Talking about the kids like the dancing, I've worked in childcare, that's my day job. And I've certainly had a lot of wiggles over the years. But like it, they will that's what they want to hear the kids like, oh, we have this computer that we set up the music and and we have different music for sleep time. And anytime anyone walks over there we go squiggles or we will lose or they'll just they'll just start doing actions and they just love it. And same, like you said about the sign language. Like it's just becoming more mainstream a part of culture. Because of that, that, you know, the AMA, and it's like, it's just wonderful. It's, there's so there's so much like education value in what they're doing. It's not like, you know, they're not just a bunch of people to stenciling and having a party. It's like, they're actually educating and it's our like, my eldest son, he grew up with the originals. And then it was lovely to meet everyone in a different way. And some new faces when I had Digby, he's, he's six. So yeah, the year is and it's just a wonderful thing that it's still going and they've got the new faces now and it's just it's a wonderful part of our culture, I think. Yeah, yeah. It's, um, it's a it's a pretty special experience to be able to, you know, share that with children. And I do think, like I said, Before, they children just learn so innately through through music and dance without even knowing they are. And I think that probably goes across the ages and that goes into, you know, children who are well about, you know, three, four or five years old who love all those sorts of songs and things and so much scope for for learning with music and dance and how that can help all kids and all sorts of education kind of settings. With a ballet you know, we have storytime ballet which is, you know, the ballet for kids and Jasper seen those shows and a lot of kids come to those shows and you know, that is also what sparks a lot of children's in imaginations and a lot of what becomes the future generation of ballet dancers here and overseas, because they started at that first storytime, ballet performance, you know, that their mom or their grandma or someone took them to when they were three, four or five, six? Yes, spark something of that experience that took them somewhere. And then that takes them on their life to, you know, what they might like to become? And I'm sure that's how it happened with me like I just How can you not get take with that whole experience? And I think, you know, with ballet and music you that's pretty special to have that spark at such a young age and to play a part in that little person. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. That's it. That's a beautiful note to end on. I think. Thank you so much, Donna, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on. Thank you for giving me so much time and, and chatting. So candidly, I've really, really enjoyed it. I have to thank you for giving me the space to you know, just like I said, I hope I can always help. The only reason I'd ever share anything about what I'm doing in my life or at home is that I can help someone else. And it's really lovely that ballet dancers now have the choice to become mums. And that, you know, we're working through this space of working out how they kind of feed and inspire each other. So thank you for giving me the space. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum

Sarah Broekensha Australian actor and producer S1 Ep18 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Sarah Brokensha is an actor and producer from Eight Mile Creek, South Australia, and a mother of 2 boys. Acting since the age of 23, Sarah has performed numerous times with Patch Theatre Company , including an off-Broadway season in New York City. She performed in Mutzenball which was awarded the 2008 Green Room Theatre Award for Best Cabaret Ensemble, Other shows include Ruby Bruise , Emily Loves to Bounce , Me and My Shadow, Yo Diddle Diddle and The Girl Who Cried Wolf. Her film and television credits include Wanted Season 3 , Wolf Creek 2 and Rabbit (feature film). Sarah created her own production company, Control Party Theatre , and received rave reviews for her one woman show "The World is Looking for You" in August 2021. In addition to all this she runs a farm with her husband Liam, which incorporates a free range egg farm The Splendid Egg We discuss how covid has levelled the playing field in the theatre industry, how important support for expectant and new mums is in the industry in keeping your sense of identity, and building resilience in her children, and herself. Connect with Sarah here More info about The World is Looking For You Connect with the podcast here Audio of the promo video for The World is Looking for You that appears in the intro, is used with permission Music used with permission in this episode is from Alison Newman and Alemjo Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... oday on the podcast, I would like to welcome Sarah Brokenshire. Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. It's great. So you are an actor, which is exciting. I haven't had an actor on my show yet. So, welcome. Thank you. I feel honored to be the first. Yeah. So tell us about yourself how you got into being an actor and share anything else that you'd like to around that? Yeah, okay. Well, I think I was I loved acting or the drama at school, high school, I guess. And then I didn't quite have the confidence, I don't think to audition for drama schools at that stage when I was 17. So I kind of put that aside and I went traveling, went skiing, I was kind of snow ski instructor actually, and then did like a business degree and did all sorts of other things. But really, ultimately, it got to a point where all I was thinking about was having a go having a crack at acting and, and so finally, when I was, it was it was when I was about 2024 2423 24, I finally plucked up the courage and started auditioning for drama school. So then I went to drama school. In had the best three years, I've had the best time and then as a mature age students, so everyone else was kind of 1718 and I was very old, 24 year old. I felt very old looking back now. That um, and then yeah, and then I left drama school. I finished there in 2004 and just been kind of slowly chipping away doing just getting gigs where I can and not experiencer independent theater and working with a lot of the professional theatre companies in Adelaide mainly spent a couple of years in Melbourne and then made the odd decision to move regionally. Which was really weird way has been the best thing. All my career. It's a very interesting journey for me, but to be leaving early. Yeah, I was gonna ask you that. And you've brought it up. So I'll ask you now have you said it's really good for your career of being in my Gambia which is 500 kilometers away from Adelaide 500. Club. Know, but how, how is that so good? I think initially, it was actually was quite hard. But it made me become a bit more resourceful made me think about what I kind of work I wanted to make I wanted to be a part of. And when things were quite quiet, I kind of went alright, well, maybe. How can I make the work come to me? How can I get I'd made some really good I spent a good 10 years in Adelaide making a really great network of creatives and friends that were doing amazing things. And then I looked for avenues where I couldn't bring them to me or yeah, how can I open up an opportunity that maybe I'm not, you know, outside of the box, and that's kind of where that started. And and I mean, it's not it doesn't all happen really quickly. That's happened but I've been here for 11 years. And now I'm starting to get quite busy but it's taken, you know, taken it's a slow burn definitely. That's interesting, too. I guess that would also be It's really beneficial for us as audiences in regional areas to be able to maybe get shows that we wouldn't get here because the main actor is from here. Would that be fair to say? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And one or the other. And also, when I got invited kind of created down to me, I've also tried to have opportunities where I get them out into the community. So we, and it's also been a really good way for me to an inroad into my community in a way as well, it's been a really good way for me to kind of understand where I live and get to know the people that surround me. But, yeah, definitely, like, I think the more Yeah, I think more professional artists seem to be kind of leaving the cities. And I think that definitely draws those kind of different shows and works and performances, whatever, out of the city. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I was gonna ask you to share with us some of the shows that you've been in, I know that I had a ticket to come and see you in the world is looking for you. And then my son broke his arm that night, so I couldn't. Stressful, I've actually very disappointed because I've had wonderful, wonderful feedback about that show. So I don't know how we're ever gonna get to see Do they ever? Do they record them? Like, yeah, it often doesn't translate quite as well. But we did get a really beautiful, archival recording in Adelaide, actually, an amazing filmmaker kind of came in and took a few different, got a few different cameras in there. But I think hopefully, we'll get to do it again, down here, I only got to do it three times and to very small audiences, which was intentional, to keep it very intimate. But I think I would like it just was over so quickly, in such a, I guess this work was very personal, and had a lot of my personal story in it. And then to be able to do it to my local community was was so humbling and profound for me, that I just selfishly want to have that experience again. It was just, it was really very grateful to have had that moment in time. Yeah. No, I want you to do it again. So I can say it. Yeah. So front row ticket. Yeah, absolutely. So you said that you'd had some of your own personal story. So how did that come about? Were you involved in actually like brushing it? Or how how did that come about? Um, I went long story is that when I first moved back here, I was definitely a bit of a loss of what to do and thought I had isolated myself from my creative community I kind of initially I thought I possibly made a mistake in terms of career not not in terms of family because I'd moved back to be closer to family to for limb, my husband and I would start a family together. But I did feel quite isolated from Adelaide and in Melbourne and thought maybe I'd made a mistake, but in that regard, but then I just kept getting these little invitations from the regional funding body country out to say and they kind of one of them kind of heard that I had moved from Adelaide to or from and to Matt Gandy. And so he just kept sending me these little invitations to meet up with someone just to talk about this or come to Adelaide for the fringe and meet some other regional artists and so slowly, I kind of, and then I kind of got the courage, I guess, which is sounds a bit strange, but the courage to have an idea that in my mind that I kind of put out there usually I just perform other people's ideas or, and so I applied for a grant to develop a show with a director, friend of mine, Daisy Brown, she's this incredible director that we've worked together on a few shows in Adelaide. And so we applied for funding to commission, an amazing writer Finnegan Cucamonga to come and work with us. So I didn't write the show. Thank goodness. I am. So this is part of that, that process of who are the people that I'd like to sit in a room with and work with. And it was Daisy and Finn, and, and Mario, who Daisy, Mario, and I have a company to get a fairly company together. And we all want to work with those people. And I had just had an idea, which was a, an article that I'd found in a, based on an article I'd found on Facebook essentially used before. And so I got the got the funding. And I think you've got to come down here to Adelaide, Gambia, and we sat in a room for a week, and talking and talking talk. And then we did that, again, we probably had a four week rehearsal process over a year. And then we just started from there. And we it was a four year process. play that. Yeah. It was a big one. And it was meant to happen in last year, but it got postponed because COVID But there was almost a blessing. I think that yeah, and so and, and why I wasn't really sure what it was going to be none of us were when we started talking. And then it's just kind of evolved over evolved over four years and became this one woman show which wasn't my intention, either, because that's terrifying. It ended up being Yeah, this this. Yeah, this is theta work that we're very proud of. Oh, yeah. That's, that's no, I really have to say it was on stage with the composer he, he played live. And then we had this amazing vocalist as well. So she was part of the EU, I think to what maybe I can like start a petition to get it back. So other things that you've done? I know, with my connection with childcare, you've done some work with the patch theatre group, they do shows for children. Yeah, tell us the other things that you've done over? Yeah. Yeah, I've done a lot of work with patch theatre, and I actually do a lot of work with them over my presidency. Yeah, so that kind of saved me a little bit, in many ways. Like, it kept me kind of, in the, in the, with my finger, it felt like my finger was still on a pulse of some description. Because I'm, you know, I mean, I'm sure you understand as well, when you when you have start having kids. It's just, it's hard to kind of, you know, still figure out who you are amongst the midst of motherhood and beautiful mess in some in some respects, I guess. But you do. It's hard to kind of, you know, there's a life that was and then you as another kind of just trying to figure it out. And somehow I got to kind of keep a little bit of my artistic identity alive at at that stage, which I think was very crucial to my feeling. Like, I could still do it. I was still an artist still. Yeah. And so I kept my head above water a little bit. So patch I did, I got a pet like 10, or maybe even more than 10 years ago, now, I was lucky enough to start working on two different pet shows. They'll call them. Emily loves to bounce, and me and my shadow, which is two beautiful, beautiful shows that just happened to have these amazing tours and I got to tour with them every you know, once or twice a year. You know, back when we could go overseas and got to go to you know, travel to New York and perform in New York with a little two year old in tow and Oh, yeah. And also while I was pregnant, they kind of would shift rehearsals so that, you know, I could still do rehearsals before my due date and because you're gonna have some times when, when you're acting you feel when you get job. You feel like what I did, I felt like when I found out I was pregnant. I felt like if I told them, you know, that might be the end of that gig, no other jobs in sight. And yeah, so there's all this. Yeah, but something you know, both times when I was pregnant I had patched up and they kind of would go out. No worries, let's just move this here and there. So you can still be, we still want you to be part of the soul and how they will kind of crash into my ceiling. valued, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it's a bit more than just jobs. I guess. Now that looking back on that. acting jobs hilarious. And then, yeah, so. And then I've just done a few little tiny TV roles and things like that, where, where I've been able to, and they've been amazing, and, and just basically, I'll take any job I can get. Like, I'll do whatever, I'll do anything. Identity? Yeah, so you mentioned there, how crucial and really valuable that wasn't being able to keep doing what you love doing, rather than having to stop while you're pregnant? What about when, when you first had your first child? Did you have a break at all, then? Or were you able to just sort of keep, keep going? I guess, I kept going by the day, the shows are fairly, you know, sporadic. So there was long periods of time where there wasn't much happening, or there were periods of time where I wasn't sure if there was anything in the pipeline, you know, and then something would come up, and it'd be okay. And we'd kind of boy, me, I guess for a bit and then. So it's that old kind of, you know, it's never, you never know, really what's happening and what's coming up next. And, you know, so that job insecurity that comes with being an actor or creative, probably. But, um, so it was definitely a struggle. And then I guess, you know, for me, I have to, usually for the most part, but go to Adelaide, usually to work. So there's that added kind of stress of added stress of having to figure out what to do. Whether to, yeah, how to make that work. Because I will often desperately feel like I wanted to do that job. You know, because you hardly know when you're going to get the next opportunity or, or, yeah, but also trying to look after little tiny babies or, like, some of the patch touring I did, I did these big tourism. So Liam would come with me for a few weeks, and then taking with his mum. And so my mother in law would come and tour with me for a couple of weeks, and then my mom and so it always involved having a very good support network around me. And that was kind of the part of the reason for coming home as well was because I knew that there would be that support network is when my mum lives here. My sister and her. Her husband, they moved back here about six months before I did and we're very close. So yeah, having having that support has been crucial. Absolutely. I wouldn't have been Yeah. Tell me about your children is nearly 10 Finnegan and Fergus, he is seven, seven coming up seven and a half, two and a half years apart. Of course I am very fond of them. And I think they're very amazing. And I printed in funny and, and yeah, I've luckily just been able to either bring them along on tour or have them in rehearsal rooms when required or, you know, and they, they've loved kind of growing up in that, that little world. And I'm working on a children's show just finished a little bit of a rehearsal now and we're doing a bit more rehearsal in December and we need a test audience. That six kids so they're going to come in and be our test audience. I feel very smug about that. Cool huh. So they work just as well. Do they like to have a bit of a go? Yeah, I don't know. I think it seems like to me oldest might have a guy but yeah, I don't know. This guy doesn't know, folks too keen to get up in front of people. But I think maybe maybe seen he's got a bit more of that. Or not that a lot of actors are kind of overt an extrovert. Actually, most of us aren't think but yes. Jimmy's got a bit of a flair, I think. Have you come across any other mums doing sort of similar thing to you that are able to keep working with the little ones or while they're pregnant? Um, yeah, I think it's becoming more and more. I don't know, like, commonplace. I think that your work around pregnancies and small children and it's kind of crucial now I think for theatre companies to be inclusive of mothers of tiny babies. So make those rehearsal rooms comfortable and safe for new mothers and things that I think it's becoming just normal now. Which is great. I don't know. I don't know. I know a lot of friends in Adelaide that have babies that working in Adelaide. I don't know, so many regional artists, personally that don't have to leave home for you know, long stretches, which I've done a little bit of that which has been very challenging. Like I really appreciated the work and the experiences, but yeah, very, very challenging. For me and for Lee and my husband, as well. And. You also run a chicken not a chicken farm. It's an egg egg farm. Yeah. Well, I guess it's a we're trying to make it a regenerative farm basically, and so that the chickens are part of that ethos or that philosophy. So they we've only got a couple of caravans, I guess, they called but then sheds, mobile sheds, and we pull it around the paddocks. And chickens just cruise around wherever they want. And kind of basically fertilizing and sanitizing the soil in hopes that we don't have to spray and do all those kinds of things. And we have those beautiful Miranda dog Guardian dogs that look after them out in the paddock. So, you know, there's no fences or anything that I wander around and do it like that. Um, so yeah, that's an interesting been an amazing kind of little add on to the farm. So my, my family, I grew up on this farm that I'm living on now. And my husband is now running it, which is not something that we both really thought we'd be doing, like 15 years ago. We love it. And yeah, so the chickens, we've got this brand called the splendid age, and we sell these beautiful, I think it'd be passion free range eggs. And yeah, just as part of a byproduct of trying to create more diversity on the farm. So traditional farmers will like run other we run we run low prime land, we sell walls well across from that and then we have just some cattle from other neighboring kind of properties. So we look after cattle for other farms and you know trying to got a bit of a rotation of a few different animals through their property. Yeah. And I have read online that they the the chickens have so much space it's even beyond like the traditional what they classes it's like even more yeah just get back in. There's no other offenses to keep they're like Kelvin shooting but they can just walk through the under those or they can go wherever they like essentially, right at the beginning we have these kind of movable fences so we can teach them where to lay and where to sleep and things like that. But you in Yeah, and I can just walk anywhere they're like, I mean, obviously, they walk too far and then come back then it's it's on them if they caught my socks. Yeah, man, some of them just won't walk for case but um, yeah, no, no, no, we'll just kind of wander back to the caravans to roost at night. Yeah, I can go wherever you're like, really? Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, it's lovely. So you came to be easy, really? Like with a bit of a weird mix? Ah, okay. People like oh, look, that's the egg lady. I won't say. I won't say you're the egg lady. Egg lady. But it is a weird combination of kind of acting. And I quite like wearing a few different hats as long as I can have something creative in the pipeline, or yeah, just be able to kind of continue auditioning and things like that. Then I I really enjoy having such different hats. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Have gone in COVID. Obviously, you've been able to put on you your big show. But like, you talked about auditioning in that? Or have you had to do lots of stuff online? Or has it sort of worked? Yeah, in a way, it's kind of leveled the playing field a little bit for people that don't live in the city. Because I mean, it was kind of hanging that way in the industry was starting to do a lot more self taping, for auditions and things like that. So it was kind of heading in that direction anyway, when rather than walking into a impersonal audition, you'd send in a tape and then go through all the tapes, and then pick the field that they want, and then get those people to come in. And now that's kind of the norm. And obviously, preferred method of auditioning is actually just sending you the tape. And because it's harder to get, you can't fly from Melbourne to Sydney, just, you know, for the day to do an audition. So it's, yeah, it kind of leveled the playing field a bit. And I kind of that isolation weirdly, for me, was minimized, I guess, or Yeah, so I felt more connected. People. I mean, and you know, it would go crazy. Like, people were zooming like crazy in the beginning, but I started connecting with all sorts of people. And creatives that were doing interesting things through zoom, and because everyone was like, well, right, well, how can we still connect with that? Yeah, that Zoom each other or? Yeah, can you send in a tape for this? And it's for me, it kind of was good in many ways. Cuz you probably you probably wonder I've got the chance to meet these people have opportunities if if it wasn't there, that like you said, it's got to tell its upside. Yeah, it definitely has its upside because I have been doing tapes for a little while. Now. I also feel quite comfortable doing that, but almost prefer going into a live or digital real audition because I get all not great. auditioning. I get nervous and you know, when you start talking in your head, like just stop talking. And you just keep going or go back. So I've had to like I have so much more control over a self tape audition, so I don't know concept of mum guilt. What how do you feel about that? Yeah, I've been thinking about that a bit. Navigating motherhood is, is tricky, that I definitely felt a lot of guilt I guess, but about starting going back to work about leaving the kids about leaving my family to go and do a theater job or, and whether it was worth it. And I think, mum got it, I feel like it implies that you've done something wrong, do like numb guilt. And I don't think that's correct. So I wonder if are thinking about it today, because I often feel guilt about not doing this because I'm doing this so you know, I'm doing an acting job. So I can't put as much energy into the farm and so it puts more pressure on them or so I'm feeling guilty all over the place. And, and that's the kind of I feel like I'm being that conditioning thing. So it's not just mom guilt, I don't think I just always felt a bit kind of like I should be in all places all the time. But I think I think I when you when I was going away a lot, I struggled with feeling guilty, feeling, I guess, stressed and stretched and, and then and just not being around. And Liam is just amazing. And being so supportive, he would say well, you know, is that I think he kind of stress to me that it's important that the boys see that you're doing what you love, I guess. And that maybe it's just about finding the right compromises. So your husband, Liam, he must be very supportive, to be encouraging you to keep keep doing what you love doing. And all my whole family right from the beginning. And I think that lame would always say look, because leading up to going away for a show, or just a couple of weeks before I just feel wretched and I feel sad, and I'd feel super guilty about leaving and that he would just remind me that it's a beautiful time for him and the boys to to have a different kind of relationship. Often leaves mum would come over with her partner while I was away to help. And then so then she'd have this different relationship with Liam and the boys than she would if I was here, which I thought was really a lovely thing to say and a lovely thing for me to be reminded of that. She Yeah, she gets to have this different relationship with with the boys while while I'm away. And that she loves that time. She because she doesn't get to see them often. She was encountering, like regional Victoria eight hours away. So and then they get to see me during my love, I guess, or they get to see me going to do that. I mean, they don't necessarily see the shows each time but they get to understand that I'm making a sacrifice to do the things that I love or making. And, and that yeah, it's just about trying to find the right kind of compromise because I think you need your own thing as a as a human and as a as a mum as a parent, but definitely as a mom you need your own whatever that is like even if it doesn't have to be work but and so to have your own thing you do need to compromise and sacrifice a little bit. That kind of relationship with your children or your husband and it's about finding the right compromise or the right balance I guess of sure feeling a bit guilty but also feeling that you Are you doing the right thing for you? I guess? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think that's an that's it's always a struggle, it's never the same, it's time, it's always a different lead up to me leaving, it only happens a couple of times a year. If I have a good deal, it's, it's a couple of times a year. And the lead up is different every year as the kids get older to. Like, Finn, especially he really misses. Or he gets away, he kind of worked himself off as a lead up to me going away, but then he's finally gone. But so that anxiety, those anxieties are a bit different now for the boys leading up to because they can communicate how they're feeling. And they don't want me to go and this and that, and the other. But I guess that opens up opportunities to talk about why I'm doing what I'm doing. And that it is, although it is hard, it means I get to kind of do the thing that I love, but they also get to hang out with Liam in a different way. That's a really great way of looking at it too. It's stringer strengthening other relationships in your family unit, as well. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and lame. Duck put obviously, a lot of pressure on him, but and he really appreciates that kind of bond he gets with the kids that different when I'm around. This is the kind of mommy's boys a bit at the moment. And so on kind of the, you know, but when I'm out of the picture for a bit, he becomes the kind of parent I guess. Yeah, so how do you step into those different roles? And I hope it's building resilience as well, a little bit maybe what's building resilience for me? I miss them so much. And, and it's, it's tapping away, because I'm also constantly going, is this worth it? Am I doing the right thing? It's only a theater show? Should I be home? Like all of that still going on? Even if I am having an amazing kind of time, you know, being in the rehearsal room, or something like that? And then do you tell yourself that it is worth it? Like, do you do it yourself? Then? Say yes, yeah. Yes, exactly. And that I am reminded, and my mom actually said, the last time because Oh, my God, I'm feeling really anxious about not being around. And it's just like, well, you know, if you just have to, you know, kind of weigh up. And if it's too much, like, if it's, if that's outweighing if you're, if you're miserable, and doing in a way during the show, then there's no point to doing that. So, but if you're, if you're, if you're happy, then and, yeah, then it's kind of it's worth it. I'm not like damaging my children. I just think it's wonderful though, for for boys, in particular, to say that a mother's a mother can be any, anything that they want to be to, like, the mother is the traditional role that they might sit might have seen, maybe the grandparents in a different way. But then mothers of today can can do whatever they want. And I think that's awesome for boys to say that that, you know, as they grow up their expectation of what, you know, their relationships might look like is, you know, endless. I suppose its boundless. It hasn't got these constraints that the previous generations would have had, I guess. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I guess when when I'm at home, I do we do tend to kind of fall into Liam's kind of out doing the labor on the farm, although I do come out and help and, and I tend to be them on that kind of nurturing and doing like book work and, and taking the score and doing those kind of almost, you know, those stereotypes, the stereotypical kind of role that we've kind of fall into which I don't sometimes I feel funny about that. I yeah, I agree with you that I think it's great for them to kind of see me Yeah. forging a bit of a path that's a bit tricky, as well, I guess. Yeah, it's just it's tricky and hard and as a performer, I think and an actor it's definitely a build resilience. Yeah. I get out pretty quickly, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Like, you would have to have pretty thick skin I suppose to, you've always putting yourself up for stuff. And you're at the whim of someone else to tell you whether you're good enough because or not, whether you're right for the role or not, but I don't think there'll be many people. Exactly, yeah, it's definitely pretty tricky. And I think that's part of the reason for starting to be a bit more rigorous in creating my own work is so that you can have some kind of control over what you're doing. And, and so you can still get your voice out there and your stories out there. And, and, and, you know, it's hard, like, I'm sure you probably feel the same when you like, write a song or or write an album, and then you've kind of put put your heart and soul into it. And then you just have to go, Matt, ego, what do you think? Why do you not I mean, like, Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's very, you're so very, very vulnerable situation to put yourself in and, and, yeah, sometimes when standing out, outside, just recently are standing out the front of the foyer after doing the show. And I'm just like, God, this is, I feel like I basically just kind of, you know, cut over my chest poured out my heart. And I just smoked it down in front of everyone for you to skate. You know, I was a bit late for a bit but like, God, it is. Yeah, it's thank God, people do it now. Like when you hear a piece of music that just like rips your heart out, or you see like, for me watching a theater show that can either punches you in the gut for the best. I love it so much. And so, you know, thank God, artists and people are creative, because for me, that's like, that's the stuff of life. But I'm not for everybody, I guess. But yeah, it does take a bit of Yeah, resilience and determination. And it's not really a choice is that you're just Oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's very true. Yeah. Yeah, it's just you just make you just have to. Yes, you are compelled to do it. Yeah, yep. Yep. Yeah, I think it's great. I have so much admiration for all of us and relishing myself. And yeah, I think it's just, Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think I think that's why it's so hard for moms, you create, because of this, the sheer determination that you're going to do what you want to do, you're going to put out what you want to share, you're going to create what you want to create. But then you go, Oh, hang on a minute. There's these other people here now that I have to consider. And it's like trying to reconcile the two. Yeah, it's just, absolutely. I mean, I don't know how you feel when you're kind of writing songs or, but I know that when I'm rehearsing or performing a show, especially leading up to opening night, or things like that, I find it very hard to be present. Because I'm always thinking about just feeling nervous, really, or you kind of consumed about the characters I'm exploring. And so it's a tricky balance to be kind of be present. With the kids walking something at the same time, but also, yeah. Enjoy the privilege. Yeah, it's, it's, that's a, it's a really hard one. There's the episode that came out today with Rachel, she said that she always tried to keep the two things really separate the, the parenting, and her art practice. And I think it's different. Because when you're actually, you know, you physically holding a paintbrush or physically holding a pen, you can go to this space and do it. But you're in this, here. And so then she she found that if she could get some time doing her art, then she could go right, that's done. Now I can go see my children, which works great, you know, for that sort of medium. But I find like, your mind can be really challenging because you've always got stuff going around in your head. Like, yeah, always there. And how do you switch that off? Well, your children have come over and said, Hey, what should we do this and you're going when I'm watching but my brains back here thinking about what I was really challenging just to but when I come in here to actually record something, that's the easy bit because I can go right I'm shutting the door. Give me 10 minutes to record. Yeah, it's all the other step the other times the hard, you know, yeah. And yeah, it's rattling around in here. And you just, you just want to grab, like, things will come to you in a second and you're like, Oh, hang on, hang on. I have to write this down. Yeah. Because the truth is Do you know? Oh, I don't know. It's just like, ah, yeah, heads looks like splitting. Yeah, I'd be I find it tricky as well. And because I, I spent a lot of time when I'm rehearsing and performing actually away from the family. So that's easier for that in that regard for to be able to kind of just concentrate on, on the show that I'm doing. Whereas I find now that I'm doing a bit more work here and in my Gambia at home, and it's actually really tricky. When you when you work go to work during the day, and then you have to come home and and come try and switch it off. So that's a real struggle for me, because I've kind of had an realize it was a bit of a luxury to be able to just get in that bubble, and, and kind of create and then not have to come home and parent that yeah, the really tricky part is trying to combine the two and, you know, I have huge admiration for, you know, a lot of my working actor friends in Adelaide that have to do that all the time, because that's tricky. Yeah. Just these endless challenges that we're faced with. Yeah, something comes up. Show that you've got coming up that you're working on the children show, how when's that sort of looking like it will have its opening and that sort of stuff? Yeah, so that's a company called the paper boats and theatre theater, Michael de Brown, who used to work at patch theater, so that when I was doing my shadow, and he was the artistic director there, so we've had a long kind of working relationship. He is developing a show with another creative down here called Kevin Clark. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So dancer musician, I feel like it's the triple threat. And he, so I'm working on a little show called Seven little wonders that will be performed, I think, as part of the Fringe Festival Matt gave me that. March. Yeah. So we're kind of slowly kind of developing. It involves like six little six kids on stage the whole time. So I've never it'll be an interesting and interesting experience, I think and so that's why we're starting we're gonna get a few test audiences in early but hopefully the the beautiful kind of, you know, little show for for kind of four to eight year olds. Oh, wonderful. That sounds awesome. Yeah, that sounds Yeah, gag, gag just he plays all these different instruments. And I just kind of stand there and say words every now and again. But the fairy wouldn't have the show without your words. Thank you if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman H dwellest Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts