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Alison Newman is an Australian singer songwriter and has released her new EP 'Wolf': a musical masterpiece that delves deep into the complexities of postnatal depression. BUY MUSIC ON BANDCAMP “Was great to have Mt Gambier singer-songwriter Alison Newman as support when I played in her town. Her new EP is excellent and the hometown crowd loved her performance.” Ross Wilson - Daddy Cool/Mondo Rock Alison's EP album 'Wolf' is out now .... FIND OUT MORE LISTEN

Scott Maxwell Father's Day Ep - SA musician + educator S2 Ep61 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts Welcome to the first of 2 special episodes released to coincide with Father's Day here in Australia. Scott Maxwell is a musician and educator from Mount Gambier South Australia and a dad of 4 boys, including a set of twins. Scott's dad was a guitarist in a band, as an 8 year old he was listening to Tears for Fears and Duran Duran, the Shadows, surf pop and his dad taught him lead guitar. In his early high school years Scott created a band with his mates and his interest in music kept developing throughout high school. He wanted to get in the education system because he could see that it was broken and did not cater for all learners and wanted to be a force for change. He made a career of teaching music and did so for years. Scott was the winner of an ARIA Award in 2018 - , The Telstra Music Teacher Award . Scott left his class room teaching position in 2020 to begin a new adventure in sound, working as a mentor in a not=for=profit organisation that teaches transformative learning through creativity, enabling teachers to deliver music to their students. In addition to his day job Scott's experimentation in sound has evolved to him running fortnightly sound baths in Mount Gambier called "Frequency Fridays" with all the incredible instruments he has collected. Connect with Scott instagram youtube Podcast - instagram / website Music you'll hear today is from Scott and is used with permission. If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the first of two special episodes released to coincide with Father's Day here in Australia. Scott Maxwell is a musician and educator from Mount Gambier, South Australia and the dad of four boys, including a set of twins, Scott's dad was a guitarist in a band. As an eight year old Scott was listening to Tears for Fears and Duran Duran and the shadows. His dad taught him some lead guitar, he loved surf pop music, and in early high school, Scott created a band with his mates. His interest in music just kept developing throughout high school. Scott wanted to get into the education system because he could see that it was broken and did not cater for all learners, and he wanted to be a force for change. He made a career of teaching and did so for many years, and Scott was the winner of an aria award in 2018, winning the Telstra music teacher award. Scott left his classroom teaching position in 2020 to begin a new adventure in sound. He works as a mentor in a not for profit organization that teaches transformative learning through creativity, enabling teachers to deliver music to their students. In addition to his day job, Scott's experimentation in sound has evolved to him running fortnightly sound baths in Mount Gambia, called frequency Friday is explored meditation, new instruments, including crystal bowls, and gongs. And this has triggered a new Sonic obsession for him. Today, we chat about the place that music and sound holds in our culture and society. A little bit about partner guilt and the way that Scott wanted to make a difference in the educational system. The music that you hear throughout this episode is from Scott on all the amazing instruments that he has collected in recent years. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you so much for coming in. Scott. It's a real pleasure to welcome me and good to get the other side's perspective on the special fallacy episode. Yeah, thanks for having me. Awesome. This is a very unique opportunity. Indeed, it's actually unique that you're in my studio, because I kept many people in my studio. I spend most of my most of my my time in studios. There's nothing like being in a creative space with the Lego guy. Like I was creative. I tried to keep some of it at least nice. But it just That's not me at all. I have to have stuff around me. Like, just sort of, if there was a creative office that was clean, I'd be worried. Yeah, you know, yeah, the fact that this isn't clean, it's just staffing, stuff everywhere. Yeah. And yet most studios are saying this stuff everywhere. So yeah, that's how, you know. I mean, if you could, you know, open a door to inside my brain. That's how my brain looks as well as the stuff everywhere. I think that's most creative people have an idea there. And then there's something else there. And and I need to get to do that. And yeah, yeah. I know. That's right. And then you get so hyper focused on something that you just like, oh, well, what was I thinking? Oh, I don't even know. And then, you know, yeah, it's like, everything else just doesn't exist. And you just, yeah, I've done that many times in here. I've been editing or doing something and then I've sort of lifted my head up and gone. Ah, what are we having fatigue? You know, you just get so fixated on something. Yeah, you do. You do? What are the children doing? Yeah, it's like, I've got 15 minutes before I need to do something. I just gotta go out to my studio just to look at something. And you know, and then you look at the time and you're like, Oh, my God, where did the time go? You know, I'm five minutes late now. Yeah. It was very important is very important. Yeah. Yeah. So tell our listeners, obviously I know what you do. But I'm seeking to tell me more about what you do button, your studio. What do you do in your studio? So my studio is like it's like a rehearsal space. For me a practice space, it's a administration place for my day job. It's it's just a it's an it's like the center of my existence. Really? Yeah, I love it. I love it. I love it so much. And it wasn't until I was a parent, did I feel that I needed one? Because I needed a space that that was separate from the world that I was, I was living, I guess, you know, so that I could just be there with be present with, you know, my brain and the creative force. And yeah, so otherwise, it would have just been, you know, up until that stage was just my bedroom. So, you know, because that was a space where there was no one else anyway. So. Yeah, so I think that's, that's probably, that's, that's my studio. Yeah, it's a, it's, it's a spot where it's a spot where I Yeah, where I escaped the world, and I'd be present with myself and, and whatever, whatever I feel, needs to needs to come out. So it's quite a it's quite an unstructured zone. Unless that unless things are unless there's a time when I've got a deadline coming up, then it can be quite a focus structured area, but a lot of the time, it's me researching, it's me experimenting. It's me, yeah. Finding coming down, you know, rabbit holes, and because I'm, like, I'm a, I love sound. So anything to do with sound is really excites me. And, you know, I think as a culture that we could have, we could have easily not built our culture around money and capitalism, but instead built it around sound. Ah, what a cotton said, I know. Like, honestly, this this thing of capitalism. I have been on this for the last probably half a dozen episodes with people all of a sudden it just came to the forefront. And we've been talking about how not just creating mothers but anyone who creates that doesn't receive a monetary renumeration from that, why are they less important to society as people who earn money from their creativity? Like it's just been this massive topic? And we might come into that after? Yeah, I mean, that is something that I've been worried about. Yeah, it's, well, it's, you know, like sound has been at the center of what we do. And there's a school of thought that believes that sound and music was how civilization civilizations formed. Because there was that need for a group mentality there was a need for ritual and there was a need for people to be joining in with whatever whatever it was, but sound was what brought them together. And you think about that pre language stuff as well as sound communication. So you know, anything about humans on the earth have been here for you know, for we don't even know how long but it's only in this last sort of snippet of humanity where, you know, we're pushing the cache and returning the world into a giant shopping mall. Yeah. Yep. I feel like we can talk more about the company. You said your day job do you? Are you still involved in teaching? Are we doing something? Yeah, I am. I'm, I work for an organization called Sovereign or non for profit organization come in Victoria. And I'm involved in a program called transformative learning through creativity. And my job is to mentor primary school teachers in To feel uncomfortable about teaching music in their day to day classrooms, so incorporating music into the into their work, and helping them plan for lessons and deliver and play games and all that sort of stuff with the that music focus. So that's what I get to do I work at five schools in the area. And I go out and work with these work with these amazing teachers, with their wonderful kids. And yes, it's a blast. It's, it's it. Yeah, it's a really, really cool. It's a great job. And it's one where I have a lot of, I have a lot of creative scope as well. No one really tells me what it is that I need to do. So everyone sort of trusts my my own intuition. Yeah, it's that goal to achieve. But it's up to you. How are you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And there are challenges that come with the job. But you know, the, that's the challenges that come with any job, but it's usually teach teachers that move, and that sort of thing. So the teachings are very transient sort of occupation for a lot of people, some people stay in the same spot for X amount of years. But a lot of people do move over a lot of contracts going around and that sort of stuff. So yeah, that's what I get to do during the day. And, yeah, yeah, it's a pretty cool gig. So is that like, so the teachers that are sort of teaching the students they don't, it's not sort of like a formal education in music, they don't have to have like training in musical theater. It's about just as the incorporating it in sort of, I mean, I used to work in childcare. So yeah, we put music in, I'm just comparing it to that, like, yeah, anytime someone was doing something, and a child paid attention to one particular thing, or whatever you did, I know, there'd be a song that went with that, you know, like, I had a friend that used to do this, every time you'd say something, she could break out into a song lyric, it's like, you just, you just go off, you're picking up something, or let's sing the song about picking up, you know, that sort of that sort of way. It's like making it part of just everyday life sort of thing. Maybe not to that extreme, but it's probably not to that extreme, but there's no reason why it couldn't be is to sell. You know, that's because that childcare settings, is that a little bit younger? There's just, I mean, I don't have I actually don't have all those songs in those skills, but we have songs for making circles. And, you know, we do do lots of songs in class, in class time, and that sort of thing, but not necessarily those. You know, like the alphabet song, you know, only because, probably, me, you know, I could get skilled up in that area myself. You know, we used to call it the Play School. So yeah, actually, if someone was building it, start saying, build him up build anything a child? Yeah, there's a song that goes with it. And what I found really interesting was that some educators were just so natural at it, like you could tell they just grew up like that, or were really comfortable with it. Other people would get that certain level of judgment about I can't sing properly, so I won't do it or, you know, that confidence, and they feel like they're being judged by other people, not by the children, because they love it. They know, it's right. What are you saying? No, that's a very interesting sort of reflection on people's, you know, yeah. Well, you know, I tend to think the way I look at it is that you know, and you're right, that the majority of people that I teach, so no, it's best, they don't have any formal music education. Because if you did, then you should be able to teach music, you know, but, so these are people that weren't pretty much not teaching music in in their classrooms, maybe doing a few songs or doing assembly pieces or lattes sort of thing, but not really understanding. You know, I mean, most teachers don't even they can read the music curriculum. They wouldn't have ever had a clue of what some of these things are, like, the the elements of music, you know, they might not know what tambor or texture or you know, even pitch, most of them know what rhythm rhythm are. But that's pretty. That's pretty important. But coming to what you're saying. I think that's a really interesting point. Because, you know, I think you think about the education system and you think, Well, you know, it wasn't the education system that created that well. So that was it that a lot of the time when we as adults think about the education system, you know, we sort of there's a lot of trauma involved in schooling. For for all of us, as adults, we can trace that back to when we were kids. And, you know, sometimes schools are better at telling us what we feel like we're not good at and what we are good at, say, I mean, that I think the education system as a whole has a lot to answer for that. Like, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty nuts. Yeah. And certainly in Scotts perfect world, we wouldn't be doing it the way we're doing it. So that was a nice to be that little. And that's why I got into education anyways, because I knew it was broken. And I'd like to be a crack in the system. And I feel like, you know, this job gives me the opportunity to be a little bit of a crack in the system, because, you know, the kids really look forward to me coming in, even if I'm not taking a lesson to teach might be taking them because they know, this fun stuffs gonna happen, you know, they know that they're gonna have a license to be creative. They know that there's no, no, they don't have to be frightened that they're gonna get something wrong. The only time that happens is if you're playing a game, and they might get out. But that's all it is. Yeah. And they're probably not even aware that they're learning so much through the process through what you're, you know, giving Yeah, I'm thinking that it's that they've been taught to know, well, that's what learning learning should be like. Yeah. And, you know, and being a musician, it's challenging. You know, it's challenging, you've got to, you know, and you know, this yourself, there's this, there's this part, this is Part in music, where you have to grind. And if you don't grind, you don't, you don't get any better. And it's that rote repetition, which, unfortunately, the, you know, there's a lot of schools of thought that don't even, you know, right is like a dirty word universities was when I went to uni, that's for sure. However, that's the way I learned. And prep, perfect practice makes. I was interesting. I'm a great speller. So yeah, I think, I also think that one of one of our problems with people being hard on themselves, it's a cultural thing. So you know, I lived up in the ipy lands, for for a couple of years. And culturally there, you sort of, you stand out if you if you don't sing, because songs or songs are part of their daily life. That's, you know, the stories are all told through song. Like, it has been fun, you know, 10s of 1000s of years. So it's ingrained in their culture. Whereas we have, you know, flip it over to, to us, our urban culture. And, and, you know, the game shows the X factors, the voice and all that sort of thing, then all of a sudden, you know, is everyone that sings being judged, you know, by, you know, by Guy Sebastian? Yeah. That's, I think that's part of where we've got to. Also. Yeah, also, I know, through experience that, you know, kids, like kids like to sing, but sometimes, they may annoy their parents. And it might be just natural for the parents to tell them, hey, you know, you sound like a dying dog or something like that, you know, and that might sound like a dying dog, too. But that can really pay detrimental to that, the psyche of that. So, a lot of the times, you know, I like to tell parents that if your kids, if your kid is learning music, and it sounds horrible, then that's probably good, because they're actually probably trying something that they've never done before. And the only way you can do it, you know, if their practice if they're a piano player, and they're practicing a piece and it sounds beautiful, then then not nothing's happening. They're rehearsing they're not practicing. Yeah, that's some of my best singers. You know, I've spoken to their parents and their parents will say that they make really silly noises a lot. And that's that's experimentation of, of the voice or whatever it is. You can do your voices. That's part of what my studio is still. I'm still experimenting, you know? 50 years old, and I haven't stopped since I was like, 11 years old. I haven't stopped at all. Maybe Maybe there will still be Hi yeah, that's a that's a good question. You know, when I look back, I think, you know, definitely had something to do with my father and seeing a picture of him in his early 20s playing guitar in a band, I still remember the photo. And you know, I listened to music, but there was no, there was no depth. I did like the I did like the hooky, sort of minor stuff, you know, I knew that I liked it, because it had an emotion, like an emotional draw for me, and I knew anything and then these, these these minor keys, and this was the, you know, going to the early 80s. Here, you know, as sort of about eight, you know, 19 ADLs, I would have been eight years old. So, heading towards probably 10. Nine and 10 had some, some pretty big songs out there. I can't even think I mean, I know I used to love. Everybody Wants to Rule the world, but it is, it is. I mean, I remember that when that came out. And that was that was one of those jarring things. My first album was Duran Duran. It was an EP The wild boys EP, I'm not sure if that was my first that was my first album. And my first cassette was seven in the record, Tiger. So Duran Duran, there you go. They had some big minor hooks. And I was right into that. But yeah, my dad taught me a couple of things on the guitar and taught me some shadows. So Apache, and the benches walked around, so bit of surf, sort of style instrumental stuff. So it was the lead guitar. And I just took it from there, I just just didn't stop at a couple of mates, we got together at that transition stage from year seven to year eight, was high school for us. And we played we had this little band going on, and yeah, and then just did not stop from there. So we played those songs and then just kept developing throughout high school. And, yeah, that's how, that's how it started. You know, I can't, I can't pinpoint a particular there been moments that have completely blown my mind. But, you know, it was big becoming invested in music. And by invested in music, I mean, that, you know, when we talk about the first album, or your first cassette, like that, no longer exists. Yeah. So and that was an investment because you needed money to start off with, and however, you got your money back in the day, whether it was pocket money, or, you know, pleading to your folks or whatever it was, you had to there was something you had to do. And then you had to physically, you know, I had to walk down to Kmart, which is a couple of days down the road, go go to the local record store, look through all the staff and say, this is the one that I'm going to buy, take home, and listen to. And that investment in music was was, you know, that's what you get. You're accountable to the music, then you sit there and you look at the artwork, and yeah, play the final say, yeah, that was that was how musics sort of I got involved in music. And yeah, just on that, do you think it diminishes the importance or the value we put on music because it's so accessible now? Yeah, yeah, I do. I definitely do. So there's, there's there's positives and negatives. And, you know, it's such an exciting time for independent artists to be able to release stuff and have it so accessible and available. The I mean, the music industry's it's cutthroat you know, it's intense. And you've got artists now being able to bypass the industry. Yeah, so that's, that's amazing. So for the artists, it's, it's probably pretty cool but on a cultural level, having having that access unprecedented access to music is? Well, it's going to it's going to affect the monetization of artists. Tell me, I know. Exactly. Ah, but yeah, yeah, you've got that. If it's, you know, it's just like saying, hey, if if our roads were made of of diamonds, how precious would they be on your fingers? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's, yeah, it's it's a it's an issue. It's an issue. Yeah, I can say like, I, as an independent musician, myself, like being able to release music is amazing. But then at the same time, you think, because there's so much there? It's just, you know, will it ever get listened to it? Or will anyone's ever get listened to unless you are within, you know, a big company that can provide stuff like there's just so much stuff out there? And I didn't realize. So, when I, when I did the ARIA stuff. Yes. Yeah. It was such an insight into industry that I'd never had before. And so you know, I remember I remember having a chat to this to this bloke outside outside the toilet at the areas. And he was asking me all about this staffing. I, this is at a this is sorry, at the areas I actually got presented the area at a what was the, what was it called? It was an industry meeting. So it was all the big it was all the CEOs of sonar, Warner, Music, Spotify, all that it was this, you know, huge thing Bob Geldof was there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, chatter was amazing. I said, thank you for all you've done for music. You know, he picked up the award he's going he's a very weighty you're, he's like, you get back to school, tell them all the award should be this heavy. Yeah. But anyway, I was chatting to this guy. And he was saying how, you know, he wished that he continued learning whatever instrument and now that sort of dawned on me that these people aren't musicians, you know, they're business people, and are speaking to another guy, we're sort of moving from one place to the other. And he was talking to me, and he said, Well, you know, congratulations, and all that we're hoping for our first aria for I forget which one it was, was like the big one, like, Song of the Year or something like that. And I'm like, ik you know, who, whose team you're part of, and this is a there was about nine business guys in suits. And so that was Amy sharks team. So who knows? And she actually ended up winning that, so they got it. But I don't even know what they do. What are these guys in suits, they are just like, well, this is that's how I know that this is. This is massive industry. Yeah. And there's something that happens there. I don't know. It's secret. Squirrel. Yeah. Doors, things going on. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that's, that's the type of thing that I'd be bad at this. See, that's the thing that I sort of think, on one hand, having, having all the music in the world possible on a platform and letting people decide what they want to listen to, is good, because it sort of cuts that control that the commercial radio stations have because the people make deals with the execs are you give us that much. And we'll play the song four times a day, you know, takes out that like, that's why I love community radio so much because the only stipulation they have is they've got to play. I think it's only 20 something percent Australian music apart from that they can do whatever they like, you know, there's not that nice deal sort of being made. So I've just taken the conversation. I love community radio. Yeah, I think that's it's literally what it is. It's, you know, everyday ordinary people sharing their love and their community and yeah, the people think it's awesome. Yeah, no, you're right. And, you know, and today we have access to community radio from Hundreds and 1000s of community writers Yes, we would be would be ensnared. Yeah. So such an interesting, interesting concept. But yeah, so music is freely available as as we want it. But yeah, the power the Pat, the the actual power of music gets lost within within its within its easy access. You know? So getting back to your area, can you share with us that story and how you got involved and what the award was, and that kind of stuff for people who might not be aware? Yeah, so the story goes, the, there was a couple of teachers at my school who wanted to put me up for a nomination. And so they asked the kids to write some type of thing for for me, and it was voluntary, you know, kids could do it if they thought that I deserved that, blah, blah, blah. So I ended up getting nominated for this for an aria Award, which, which was really, really amazing. Yeah, it was like, awesome. And then it was up to a community vote. So the community had to get behind it. And, you know, I thought, you know, how I was, like, how I had to develop the campaign, which really helped me in my you know, because you're obviously, you know, there's five teachers, everyone's, everyone's an amazing teacher, everyone deserves the ARIA, you know, it's a, it wasn't about that it was just, for me, it was a childhood dream. You know, ever since ever since I started playing in bands and knew about what the area was. I thought, wow, you know, I'd love to win that. And there's funny stories that actually go go there now. Because so, I'm rewind, and I'm a good musician, um, you know, possibly 23 years old playing in bands. And I see some people that I was sort of involved in scene nosing. Getting this aria award? Yeah. Because their band was the super Jesus. Oh, yeah. And I remember watching it that day, and thinking, Oh, wow, maybe have made some real decisions in my musical path. Because I was playing. I was playing surf punk at the time, but I come from, you know, thrash metal. Really high energy. Yeah. angry music. Yeah. Which was, which was, which was cool. And I loved and that's why I did it. And that was the moment where I thought, Oh, maybe I should look at something else. And that was a moment where I signed up to do the stat test for uni. Yeah. And that's how I got to university. And that's how I became a teacher. So, you know, fast forward 2020 years, 25 years, or whatever it was, and there it was in front of me, like a carrot on the stick. And I'm like, Oh, yes, this is a childhood dream. I'm gonna go for it. So what I did is I recorded, I've written this song on guitar, and it was a real flashy guitar thing. And because I thought, I thought to myself, I thought, how could I? How can I get people up? I am one of those people, you know, like, I don't like asking for money, like from people, you know, or your vote. Vote for me vote for me. Yeah. So I thought, how can I do this, which isn't, you know, so I thought, well, what can I give, you know, how can I give something? And so I had this guitar thing that was really, really intense. And so I was able to just chop it up into little snippets. And as I build a Facebook page called riff of the day, yeah. And every day, I post a little bit of a riff, and with a vote for me, don't forget to vote. Yeah. And that's, that's basically, it was pretty popular. There was and that's how, that's how it works. So, you know, and that's, you know, that's how, obviously, the people, the people of this community really got behind me, and that's how I won the Aria. So, you know, it was it was a vote of confidence from the community, which was very, very humbling. Yeah, extremely humbling. So and going to the IRS was just you know a dream come true. Now I've done it now walk that red car. I've done. You know, I can cross that off my bucket list. Do you want to drop some names? Who else do you talk to? There was George Shepherd from shepherd he was he was my buddy. But who was sitting next to somebody really fast? I don't either. We're not listening. We really offended Oh, they weren't getting an hour. But yeah, I don't I don't I just I didn't speak to that many people. Like I was a little bit I say humbled by by everything. Who else did I speak to? I don't know. Yeah. Cuz it was like, everyone wanted to speak to me. Like that key rule rule is like, this was an up and coming out of spec thing. It's like 15 years into care come up to me and shake my hand and rule. I think it's a rule came out. So he shook my hand. And it was like, you know, munching on some Cheetos as you do when you're 15. Right. And he's just won an hour here as well. And, you know, there was like, you know, Troy QSI. Daily, you know, chatting to him at the end of the night, but we weren't chatting. We're chatting about school drop offs. Funny, Murray wiggle. He's gold. So yeah. And all the like, it was easy to be involved in meeting all the wiggles who were all there. So but Mary's Marisa, you know, he's a great musician. Yeah. He, he looks after these lads called the DZ death rays. I think they are. Yeah. And same sort of thing. Right. Yeah. So it was it was a it was just an amazing experience. I was. I was in the I was in the elevator. Oh, I got to sign I got to sign these posters. And, you know, my name was on with all the other ARIA award winners. It was so weird signing, you know, they took me to this vector, which is little room up, stay stays in there. Like, you get a photo. And then, which is the official RFID. And then you sign this and they follow you around with, like beers and stuff like that. Other beer said another beer. Yeah, that's what the arrows are. Like, there's like, every, every five rows, there's an esky. Oh, wow. And it's got like water and beer and champagne, whatever it is in there. And they fill it up. Just like, Whoa, yeah, there you go. This is an insight inside that. I could only because I was gonna say, like, people, I think I remember seeing the footage of you getting like the mayor with your award. And so people were so appreciative because you're literally, you know, bringing the future of musicians to life, you know, you're giving them the passion. And, you know, there's the actual skills, but you know, that love of music, and that appreciation for it is, you know, what's going to, you know, bring on the next generation of performance. So, yeah, you know, I think that's, that's important. Like, and it's, it's, it's the, for me, it's the musical experience, you know, it's the experience that you have with music. So, you know, so anyone listening out there now, you know, if you want to feel that power of the experience of music, you know, think back to think back to when you were 16. And there's some songs you're listening to, like you can you can latch on to memories, that, you know, that have been a part of the soundtrack to your life. That's how important music is. You know, there's not too many people will say, Oh, well, I wasn't really listening to music when I was whatever you know, about that. 1617 is when we start to really sort of capturing but you know, music has been, you know, think about how you felt after the last concert. You've you went to a big concert. Last because how did you feel that? That feeling stays with you for days and days, and then forever? Yeah. As you'll always remember those because there's this shared experience and that's part of the power of music is that it gives us the the the the opportunity to have amazing shared experiences. It's this real energy exchange. So and I tell students well, I used to tell the older students this, but this happens when I teach music anyway, but you I'm on stage. And you know, the energy that you give to the audience comes straight back at you, you know, and it doesn't necessarily matter how many people are in that audience. But you know, you get that energy times, whatever times whatever is close to you, you know, I don't know what it's like to pay. And like a big stadium or anything like that I think the most people ever paid to was about 4000. That's pretty rad. But it wasn't, yeah, the energy exchange was a little bit disjointed, because it was a big stage was lifted up. And it's not quite like, you know, I remember playing and I remember playing at the Tivoli in the Thrash band, and there were literally people running off the bar and jumping into the crowd. And now, we're sort of, I had to play with my back turn to the audience, so I could just push them out a little bit. So give me Oh, I was so cool. Yeah. So and that's, you know, you're in the midst of that energy. Just Just amazing. That's the power of music, you know, you know, music gives us an opportunity to express that energy. And music is energy in itself with sound energy, you know, we just can't see it. But it's, oh, it's there. You're listening to the art of being a mom, my mom, I was. Interesting story, fast forward, just passed the area. And I'm starting to think, oh, what next? You know, I've achieved this massive goal, where am I going? I don't want to go backwards. I don't want to turn into Oh, that was that guy that that was that teacher who won that area. And now, you know, now he's just like a cobweb in the corner. So really made me start to think. And then there was all this all this friction in my workplace as well. And then and say, all that all that stuff. There was a lot of stuff going on. And, and it boils down to that I felt like, you know, the arts were being attacked for being too popular. You know, yeah, it was, it was lit, it was literally, literally, kids aren't handing up their English assignments on time, because they're too involved in your musicals. And it's just like, what, and that's when it that's, and so that started to weigh real heavily on my shoulders. And, and I just went down, down with stemmer, you know, into it into, like, you know, into a really sort of horrible mental position where I wasn't sure what, where I was going, what I was doing, how I was going to combat this. And through that, I ended up I ended up looking into altered states of consciousness and, and meditation, that sort of stuff. And then I came across all these meditation instruments, I didn't even know they existed. So I came across a crystal ball. So I work a lot with digital. In the past, I've worked a lot with digital sound. And there's a thing called a VST, which is literally a virtual instrument. And so I ended up I was looking at this virtual instrument, they had all these meditation instruments. And I'm like, Well, I've never heard of these things before. And then I found this crystal ball, and it's literally a frosted crystal ball, and bigger than your normal salad bowl, and shaped a little bit differently, but it has a tone, pure tone. And I thought, Okay, what's this and I, I listened to one and it just it's one. It's like a sine. It's like a natural sine wave. And I was listening to her and it just, it was still it did not move. It was it's oscillates with itself. Yeah. That that beautiful. And I was like, oh my goodness, what, what is it and I felt I felt amazing. It was like, I'd spent my entire musical career trying to be as fast as I possibly could then never, never stopped to savor what it could be like to be still with a musical note. And it just drew me in and from that moment, Ain't unlike us hooked Yeah, absolutely hooked and two crystal balls together creating whatever how many you want in a room is yeah, it's just outstanding, you know, for me, for me and everyone, everyone would react different because everyone you know musics unique experience and listening to sound as well as a unique experience. So, you know, the person next to you would experience that sound differently. Some people those crystal balls are really activating this seat in the middle of the head, you know? And some people find them you know, they might need to move or whatever. Yeah. So that's what that's what started this journey and then it was you know, gongs, gongs are the opposite gongs are like, like opening a doorway to, you know, a million cosmic frequencies at once. Yeah, it's just like, there's they're everywhere. And, you know, the idea about I found the idea of a sound bath. And I like, I just love the term. It is sound, isn't it? It's like you luxuriating in. I mean, I've always loved I've always loved baths, myself, and sitting back and contemplating life and so forth. But to think that you could do it in sound, I'm like going, is this I'm really excited about it. And I did an online course. And, you know, which was okay, but sort of showed me the ins and outs of of what it's all about, I guess, like the practicalities, the practicalities of it, and your uses for it, and so forth. And then yeah, I just went down that rabbit hole. And I've now managed to bring my guitar into that space. And now I'm starting to, you know, do the sound baths and it's so cool. It's so cool. Like it is. It's, it's like unbridled creativity, you know, you really just you, you have to have a plan. Like, you know, like, like my life. You know, the plan is just there. It's not like, it's not like, I'm gonna, something bad's gonna happen if I don't follow up. But the plan is there that that's the, that's the plan is planned. But be. Yeah, it's so, but yeah, once you once you're in that zone, it's, it's so cool. And you know, it's such an individual experience, it can take, you know, you can take one person on this fantastic imaginative journey through time and space. And for others, it can, you know, it can give them the space to release emotions or whatever they, they need to. So, there's certainly been a lot of that at at the sound bars as well. And like I say, to people, you know, I'm going to fill this room with sound frequency, you know, the sound frequency itself is pretty neutral. You know, it's, they're just their frequencies there sound frequencies, there's research on how they affect the body. But if you want to, you can release negative thoughts outwards, into those frequencies. Or, you can allow those frequency if you are really enjoying them, and then they're, you know, they're turning you on or whatever, you can just let that evening and, and, you know, really switch on, which is, you know, it's just, it's just amazing. And you know, we've, the thing is with, that's the way that I listen to music as well, you know, that's, you know, if there's something that I let in, I'll let it in, but if the sub A lot of the time, it's letting out. Yeah, particularly. Yeah, you know, when I particularly like, you know, young kid listening to thrash music, you know, pretty, pretty upset with the state of the world. And the inequalities of the world and getting out all that angst with, with heart hard, fast, heavy music was the same type of thing. Just now, now, everything's a little bit different. And yeah, it sounds pretty cool. But, you know, along the way, I've learned so much about sound. And, you know, sound is one of those. It's one of those things, it's like, yeah, it's like gravity. It's always there. You know, very rarely do you sit in silence. And if when you are in silence, I swear you can hear something anyway, this this just the sound that's always there. Yeah, listen, that's just my brain tinnitus. But you know what I mean? Like, it's just the sound was very rarely get solid solids yet like proper silence. Yeah. And yeah, sound is Saturday, we said the weird thing about sound this is. So sound needs the human ear to be to perceive it. It's like if a tree falls in the forest. Now, is it too soon to make a sound? You know? Yeah, like I said no, because I produced it produced sound waves. And but if there's nothing to receive the sound waves, then it doesn't make a sound. So it's gonna be relative isn't it is it is really interesting. I love that one. It's like, that's, yeah, it's pretty cool every thing that I've done it always everything always comes back to music, you know? And, yeah, yeah. It's a wonderful way to live your life isn't to have that sort of piano reflect on it like that? Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Yeah, it is. It is. And, you know, it's funny, because you always ask myself, what is it about music? You know, what do what do i What is it that I want to get out? But you know, and you know, the answer I always, always came up with even at since I was a kid is that I want people to feel the way I feel when I'm listening to music. I want as many people to feel that because such a good feeling. And, you know, and it just reminds me of that. That, you know, it's like, you're holding up, like, a mirror to the universe. So that it may know itself better. But so that's that, you know, that's, that's that style of thinking? That I think that for me, you know, music. That's That's what music is? It's pretty profound isn't it is. And you sort of think something was simplified at all, but something so simple? Like I said, it's with us all the time, every day. That it's so he has so much meaning. Yeah, well, music is simple. Like, you know, and this is the thing, this is what my my job is to try and tell teachers that think that they don't know anything about music, it's like, well, you know, you only think you don't know anything about music. Because a lot there's a lot of a lot of people have hijacked music and music education. And they want to make it smarter than what it needs to be they want to make it more academic than what it needs to be. Doesn't need to be academic at all. You know, you don't need academics in music, you know, but there are people that like to what's the word? Academic, non academic, academic, I want to do that to everything. And you can, it can break something, you make it so inaccessible. To make it accessible, and I know that I know that the education departments had trouble with that, you know, trying to make the try and make your subject because music can be more complicated than physics. Yeah, of course. How complicated Do you want to it? Yeah, you can make it as complicated as you are. And this never stops. It's like a fractal. It's, you know, and it's exciting the other way it can be as simple as a drumbeat going. Yeah. Yeah, it can be as complex as the most weirdest harmonies in combination with strange texture. B, you know, there's, it's endless. It is it is it's like Yeah, yeah, find the ocean. Yeah, we've only we've only explored what is it 5% of the ocean or something like that. It's the same. It's the same with music. So I didn't and now we're finding sound. You know, I was reading an article from Stanford University the other day where you know, they're using acoustic technology and sound technology to pack heart cells into places where they can't that's the only technology that they that they can use. Yeah, they're also using sound as a deterrent for malaria carrying mosquitoes they found that there's sound that I heard Yeah, we'll send frequencies and frequencies Yeah, well, they do they use for dogs for like making them stop barking frequency collars. We can't hear it. Yeah. As you get those big, I mean, you've got those big Sonic Weapons was actually about to say yeah, see that's breaky. It's sort of freaky, it's freaky. So but, you know, people, I think people need to understand that, you know, from my understanding of what those those things are, is they're just very fucking loud speakers. Yeah, right. And this so loud that they're they are extremely and they're very focused on like, point them. So, you know, that's how they're using them and so that, you know, they can point it at you and say, Hey, you get out of it, and it will be so annoying and loud that you move. Yeah, because there's nothing else you can do. I sort of the way I mentioned, I don't know, this sounds terrible. I'm sorry to be little war. But you know, when surprised would seem really high and the glass would shatter. That's how I was imagining that like, like, just send this this frequency through and, and things would just go just like, explode. Yeah. You know, there's nothing to say that doesn't, you know, they couldn't have that power is, you know, if you could do it if the sopranos could do it. Wow. But yeah, you know, there's, there's all types of research to say that, you know, if you think about, think about things having frequency, and if you think about harmonic resonance, so for those people who don't know how might resonance is, you can take a particular notes, say, let's say for example, my crystal balls are great. So I could record a crystal bowl, and I can then apply it and record it. And if I play that, recording back to that crystal ball, it'll start making its own sound because it is resonating with the frequencies in the room. It's, it's unreal, it's unreal. It's just, well, it's just like, if you have guitars, if you have guitars, in your in your and you play the sound of a string loud enough, the strings will start to resonate. So like if I had my singing bowl? Yeah, like dinged it. Another one, if it was the same, would start to go. Possibly, possibly. Yeah. It's probably because it's because of that. Because of the bowl, it probably needs a little bit more to get it right. Like if it was bigger, it would go but it's because it's small. And it's contained. Yeah. But it might, you should try it. But that's how money, let's get this harmonic resonance. Like that's a thing. Just got a cold shiver. We go. It's amazing. So if you think about that, and if you think about everything is frequency, so my god, so people, like things can literally communicate with each other in a way? Well, that's really interesting, because I was reading an article. I was reading an article the other day, who they're looking into research saying that actually, cells communicate with each other through sound waves. Because it's the fastest way to travel through. It's not like a sound that we can hear. Yeah, it's a vibration. Yeah. So but that vibration, create contains information. There's so much we don't know, there is so much we don't know. I mean, I, I know. And you know, me, I'm sure there's people out there that don't call bullshit. But like, we don't know, we just we don't like anything, you know? And, you know, so where do you think this is gonna take you like, you're on this, this amazing sort of journey of you could go anywhere. It's really, yeah, could I sort of feel I do feel a little bit lost at the moment. Like, I want to, like, I would love to turn this type of thing into my day job, this exploration of sound because there's probably nothing that really makes me feel like I'm serving my purpose, or being me then offering that sound stuff to people. But then to do that, there's that there's that part of having the other side which is the business sense and, and you know, and looking at that, that that is as in that is like the inner wellness industry space as well so that I'm not particularly good at like, you're good at the creating stuff, so I'm not not 100% Sure, you know, of Yeah, I don't know where it's gonna take me so I'm gonna let it take me wherever it's gonna take me because I know when I started with all this stuff that that felt like that felt like home. It's like, right here we go. You know? Like, I think I've been looking for something like that ever since I started playing. Playing music and you know it was looking for something you it, I've sort of feel like I've found it. Yeah, it's almost like you had to as a, as a beam as a person had to experience something that was really going to challenge you and push up against you, for you to, to make a switch, I suppose and go nuts. This isn't right. And to go into that, like, almost like you had to come to a head. Yeah, yeah. And I'm bringing my hands together, like, you know, something had been had to happen. Yep. For that shift to take place. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, at a deep, and then there was the highs. And then there was the lows. And then there was the piecing back together. With with, with a new, a new outlook, I guess. So that's, it's been it's been such an such an interesting journey. Up to this point. And yeah, like, I'm really interested to see, you know, how well this type of this type of thing is going to be received, like, in our community, at the moment is really positive. So you know, I can see I can see it a lot of space for growth. It's such an interesting thing, you know, coming from, you know, playing in punk bands and all that sort of stuff. You know, which I'd still do if, you know if if there were the right people. But having people rock out with some blankets and pillows and beanbags. You know, maybe something that cover the eyes, and lay down and listen to music, like really listen to music is phenomenal, just like that, that concept. I love it so much. I mean, it's great to go out to venue and go and see live music and feel that high energy stuff. But it's also great to go within and to feel, you know, it's high, low energy, high energy stuff as well. And then there's also some more calming sort of energies. That yeah, so it's so amazing. And so mind blowing. It's a it's a thing, but yeah, I'm not glad that you had to go through what you had to go through to get there. But I'm very glad that you got that. Yeah, I mean, yeah. You know, I'm a very much very much, you know, you're gonna philosophize about, you know, the good and evil in the world. And you're sort of saying, Well, okay, well, there, there's, there can only be evil, if there's good, and there can only be good if there's evil. Otherwise, there's no any of that stuff. So yeah, I think that's that, that is sort of that. Yeah. You touched on earlier about having your studio. You only needed it since you became a parent. Yeah. Tell us about your your four lovely boys. Yes, sir. Thank you. I mean, incredibly exciting place to be. Yeah. Yeah. So my four boys are very energetic. They are very, very inquisitive. And they are very physical. Yeah, as well. So they can all play music. But whether they'll go down the music path, is there no, no one's chosen that as their main thing yet. That's so how do you feel about that? Well, I don't know. Well, you know, the eldest of 15. So I didn't really start playing. And, like, seriously until I was 12. My 12 year old can play as good as I could when I was 12. But, you know, whether he chooses, you have to have that. I mean, I had my friends, my friends were playing so I played, you know, so whether he can manage us to surround himself with other people that are thinking the same, which is going to be pretty difficult in the current state of music. In in the mount it's just that seems to be we were at this really high about two or three years ago, and now and now. Something's dropped out. And, and musics really taken a backseat and there's a there's a few there's definitely a few people in it in the education scene here that sort of don't see the importance of music and have seen that just sort of slip out from under us, which is quite significant. But you know, I'm not gonna blame it on the schools. You know, it's just it's just We'd have a cultural thing happening. What the way I sort of equation if you've got a town of our size, how many 1000? What are we got? 35? Last time I'll do is 2525. Okay, I'm getting excited. And we don't, yes, that's yours. We don't have a music shop anymore. You know, that just to me shows that we're the level of importance that, you know, that we play we're placing on it, you can't even go in the shop and get your guitar really strong anymore. You know, it's, it's a tough one, that one, you know, knowing the ins and outs of that business. And business business is, you know, we're talking about capitalism earlier. I know that's, you know, you can't give, give money away or, you know, lose money and just keep being a charity. But I just thought how can we not have a music show? You know, just Yeah. Really, it was it was? Yeah, it was heartbreaking for me to I mean, I remember looking at the Facebook posts and thinking, you know, it was almost like, lost, lost somebody. Yeah. Yeah. Had that had that feel about it? And because, you know, to me, the importance of, you know, a place like that is is, is for community. Yeah, but I understand, I understand. I mean, I fully understand what happened and why, you know, they had to shut up and close, but who knows. But that's not so bad community. Like we'd always put out if we had a gig, we put our posters up in there. We had our, like, my albums with Assange there. I could bring the guys when I, whenever I had trouble with our PA, I'd be like, Michael, why can't I get it to turn on? You know, they were just they're not just think. You know? Yeah, it does makes me sad. I mean, at the end there are they're all like students of mine. Yeah. Right. And yeah. You know, I've also, you know, they're not the first students to, you know, work there. So it gave them a bit of a rite of passage. I know that likes because you said like to do work experience there. And that's, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a shame, but I feel I feel that, you know, there's 25,000 people here, but musics just not big enough to sustain that type of thing. You know, but it's all goes back to how much importance do we want to put on music? You know, so, you know, with, with my boys, I know, I know, it's not right, to force anything onto them, because it's nothing forced onto them by Daddy's going to be cool. Not once they like once they hit the teenage years. Yeah. So they played in a band when they were like, in year five. They did like a talent show and are really, really good. Did you watch it? Yeah, they're very good. To me when I watched I don't know if it was just like a proud parent thing. But they made it look so bloody effortless. I must say your your kids doing things? Like very natural. And like, No one. No one was there when I worked with them for, you know, maybe five weekends in a row of working on this Boulevard of Broken Dreams, whatever. Some yeah, there's Boulevard of Broken Dreams, I think it was and put the staff that like the the work and effort that went into making that look like that was huge. You know, it wasn't that that was this easy thing. It was it was difficult. There was a lot of that when we're talking before about, you know, grit, there was a lot of grit. And that was really tired, grumpy children at the end of those sessions. So, you know, I'm hoping that I didn't ruin the experience for music because they didn't get to perform and yeah, but they didn't win. Say they won. But yeah, I think they made it look so easy that it just like, Oh, these guys. They're good. But so yeah, that's it's interesting. But, you know, with anything with with kids, you've got to let them find find it themselves and find that passion rather than live out. Your passion, you know, that lands on last thing. I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be that parent that is living through their children. I don't want to be that person. So they can, they can do whatever they they like and do they listen to you like and value what you tell them? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I try until you know, Alex plays the bagpipes, right? Oh, yeah. And I think he chose that because neither Ben or I have any experience. Yeah. We kept doing this for years. I'd be like, Oh, do you want to play? You know, play the piano, and then be like, join play guitar? Nah, I don't want to do that. Now all of a sudden popped up the bagpipes. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's funny because um, You know, I've spent a fair bit of time with with the kids lately, due to COVID. And due to, we went to went to Melbourne, the other the other week, just me and the boys drive up in the morning and drove back in the evening. And it's funny, you know, when I'm with them, the conversations that we have can be quite intense, like, the other day, we were driving a football, and the conversation was about how everything came to be, you know, it was that deep. Yeah, it was, you know, okay, so science says there was a big bang, what was before the Big Bang? That's that type those types of questions. Yeah. You know, and that's the type of, I love having those conversations with the kids the whole big, expansive, mysterious, inquisitive style of conversations where we sort of just riff over things. You know, I was having having a chat to one of the elders the other day, and he was talking about and, you know, he gets through that stage where, I mean, schools always push your career path, and what do you want to be and all this sort of stuff. And he was sort of riffing riffing on that. And I said to him, do you want to do you don't want to? Because he's going to be say, said, like, you know, what? Would you rather? Would you rather me be a millionaire? Or would you rather, and be like an asshole? Or would you rather me be the guy that people come up and shake their hand says back now he's a good bloke? And I said, Well, I can't say is that clear? Cap? Yeah, you know, I can say that. You should think about, you know, what you want to do in the world by asking yourself? What type of contribution can you make to humanity? And if you can answer that question, then that's going to put you on the right path to where you want to go. Because that's sort of you know, that's what it's all about. You know, so you could, you can become a millionaire doing that, or you can become a millionaire, being self centered and thinking, it's all about me, and just wanting to climb the ladder and step on whoever I need to decline that letter, wherever I'm going, you know. But at the end of the day, you know, you got to be happy with who you are, and, and what you're doing in the world. So, yeah, they listen to that side. That's a lot. I love that sort of stuff. They may not listen to me when I say you dirty, go and have shower, please. Yeah, it's time for bed. Or we just said he's ready. You know, they might not listen as much, but they certainly listened to those big questions, but they don't. They go off and they ponder, yeah, that sort of thing. And so I'm really impressed that particularly they do that. So that's, that's really good. And, you know, even my youngest, we talk about all different types of things. He's, he's, he's into wondrous things. So you know, if there's a great sunset, I'll call him out or so we're gonna go and have a look at it. We've been what we've been looking at how, you know, I mean, I can't because, I mean, the weather's shitty, but it's rainbow season. Yeah, you know, and been looking at the angle of the eyes compared to wherever the rain might be to the sun. You can you can predict where these rainbows are gonna come and then you can see them before they even arrive. Yeah, and we've been, you know, get excited. Over there. Is that is that is that going to turn into a rainbow? Yeah, is if you can, that's that's pretty cool. So I love doing that type of thing. You know, there's really really sporty so they're, they're very focused on sport. And I think you know, my wife's very, very that was her type of upbringing as well country sport. Where I was city kid, so I was into music and then hanging out with my mates and being hoodlums. There's plenty of that going on in the country. Yeah, there is there is bad The twins have got a year before they get a license. So yeah. I'll have I'll have less to worry about if they're more like their mother. stories with you from Ben. Yeah, So is it important to you that your boys see you as more than I don't say just dad, because, you know, you're not just you do a lot of other things is important that your children say that do you feel? I think I think if we talk about, I think if we talk about contributing to society, if there's one thing that I would like them to do is to, you know, contribute to helping others. Your positive. So, that's something that's important that they see me being that, that positive change that you want from other people, you know, and doing all those those things that, you know, that you put in being like a helpful client, you know, all that sort of thing. That's important to me, they see that and they take that bet on all those positive aspects to life, I guess, not worried about, you know, often think about, you know, winning in our head is that, how does that how does that how does that impact the kids, you know, they streamed it live in their classroom and all that sort of stuff. You know, because I don't put much emphasis on on awards, you know, for them, and grades and that sort of thing, because it's not really about that. But there I am winning this big award. Yeah. How does that how does that how does that factor in NSO competitive? So I don't have the answer to that. But it is something that I have thought about, like, ah, yeah, wow. I wonder how that's going to impact them. But I guess also, if they see how you deal with that, too, like, they don't see you wandering around the streets going, Hey, look at my art, you know, what I mean? Like that you can achieve something and receive something and be rewarded for your work, but not make a, you know, a song and dance about us? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we have the odd conversation about how like, it's the best qualification ever. Looks good. I thought I can I can, I can literally argue to anyone about music now. What do you have in our particularly music education? Yeah, there's all these people that are way more trained than I am in music, education. They don't have an art. Here we are saying how modest I am. So always a joke. And it's always it's always it's always good fun. So, yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's important. You know, I want them to be I want them to be good people. And, yeah, I want to, yeah, I want them to make positive contributions, I think, you know, it's, it scares me that the world is so messed up. And that they, they are going into, they're going to grow up into a world that needs action. We've all we've all the, you know, all the crappy things that has been done to it. And, you know, it's still being done to it, you know, so, I'd love for them to be part of the solution of whatever that is. And I don't think shooting off to Mars is the solution. But yeah, but they're the types of things like humanity actually needs to look after each other and, you know, get back to relationships and don't get political. But, you know, we vote reverse voting in the Labour government and labor is for the people. I think there's this big change about, you know, looking after each other, you know, social housing and looking after elderly and childcare and like, just getting back to basics. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And, you know, there's a Yeah, yeah, there's a and there are a lot of there are just a lot of systems that, that aren't working, you know, in our society. And I think they need I think they, there's a lot of systems that need overhauls and they need to read they need rethinking? Yeah. So, you know, there's, there's so many, and, you know, if we, if we went into that mindset, you know, if of of looking after each other and humanity and relationships and not perpetuate the classes, which, you know, I believe that schools will perpetuate classes, you know, these people are going to go off and have these topics Little jobs in the majority of you probably the in the middle here, and then some of you fail and be down the bottom. And, you know, you'd be delegated to not having a job or having really low wage or whatever it is, you know, we can patch right that in the school, there's no need to do that, if we focused on relationships, and we were looking after each other, and that would be less likely to happen. Yeah, that's, that's pretty scary. That, you know, that that's literally meant probably begins before, but that's, you know, where people learn how to treat each other, and how, where they're going to be in the world. And that's a difficult thing to shake. If someone already thinks that they're wherever, you're not going to change from that. Yeah, I mean, any of us can think back to school. And, you know, like, once it's over, you've only got those, those bits and pieces that stick with you, you know, the rest of it sort of just falls away, you know, didn't matter. You know, it didn't matter. It didn't matter who was popular. It didn't matter what you learnt in geography, you know, but what mattered was how you felt. And that's what sticks with you. So oh, shoot at school. So did you have a good time? I feel good, right? Yeah, yeah. I failed. I did school at the end of year 11. First time, I went back and did the 12. But anyway, did shoot. I found music and they, they found easy. They should be telling people Yeah. Well, it's important to know, no, it's actually important. Because, like, if I had thought that, oh, my god, I gotta do music. I must be crap. If I had thought that, then I wouldn't have the life. You know, I just had the foresight to know that I was actually good at music, but I just didn't want to do what they wanted me to do. You know, I didn't. I wasn't interested in theory, because that's not what that's not what was, I was inquisitive about. I was inquisitive about the skill set. And I was inquisitive about how I could get better at playing my instrument. That's all I wanted to know. Yeah. And, you know, and I was a guitar player, so that that theory, stuff didn't have didn't bounce off me very well. And it was taught like shit, oh, my God. You know, theories theory is not very boring at all. But the teachers continue to teach it in such a boring fashion. It's actually really exciting theory is really musical theory is really, really exciting. But it's, it's, it's very, you know, you've got special teachers out there that can do it beautifully. But that's not how I was taught. So I just didn't listen and probably didn't go to class and that sort of thing. So that's how that's how it is, you know, so it was one of the, like I said, it's one of the reasons why I became a teacher to be because, like, I knew something had to be wrong with music, or I'm sorry, something had to be wrong. We let go because I was, I knew I was good at music. There was I wouldn't listen to my English class because I was too busy looking at the glossy pages of guitar magazine then again, same music and like, yeah, I just knew that that that wasn't me. That that was the system. Yeah, I was. Yeah, yeah. And I was just ready to give the whole world the middle finger then. And, and I didn't went up and got an apprenticeship and yeah, it just took me a little while to get back to I just need to spend my days you know, doing stuff and dreaming about songs. Yeah. So yeah, I drink Oh my God, when I get home, I'm gonna I'm gonna write this song. It's been in my head all day. But I wouldn't do it. But it was it was in my head. Yeah, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom. I also name and so when I talk to my moms on this show, we talk about this thing called mum guilt. So this idea that mums should exist for their children, and if they do something for themselves, they should feel guilty about that or they should feel bad if they don't think do things right and bring that in air quotes based on you know, society's expectations of what a mum should be when management. And I've been like asking deaths then. Do you have a Thoughts On a thing? Is there a thing of dead guilt? Do you experience those sort of emotions of You know, the pressure is on you as a dad, to whatever roles in your family, you've got to fulfill that. And if you don't, you know, how does it make you feel? Is that something that you've sort of never encountered? Um so I would say that I've never encountered dad guilt. But I've definitely encountered husband guilt. You know, it's a I know, I know, my wife is relentless in what she does around the house. You particularly washing is huge, because yeah, it was it was a big family. It's just It's endless cycle and you live in Mount Gambier, and there's no way to dry it and that sort of thing. So there's always washing hanging from the wherever, yeah, it's like a cave of washing all the time. So you know, there are times there are times where, you know, I think, oh, maybe I should pitch in there a little bit more, and that sort of thing. So that's it. But not as a parent, there's nothing, there's no, there's no, I don't feel, you know, I think I do as much as I can say, and then when I do as much as I can, as much as I think I can, that's probably a better way to explain it. So then I don't feel guilty when I'm out doing my own thing. Yeah. And also know that the important that like, see, it's a you know, you have to sacrifice your time, every now and then to do things for yourself, and you have to sacrifice time to do things for your kids. And, you know, time time is. Okay, and you're gonna get to this because you posted a really interesting post today about time or Yeah. Well, that's the time is three, but how do you spend it? Yeah. And then, and then, yeah, you talking about the quote that I posted? Yeah. Like it read that book. Yeah, the time is precious. Yes. Yeah. It's pretty cool. I love the quote from that book of the, the, the, the Emerald Tablets, and, and, you know, it's like, time does not move. But yet we move through time. It's like, whoa, that's pretty cool. You know, and, you know, we exist as events in time, our consciousness exists it as events in time. But yet, all time is at once. It's about Yeah, so it's, it's such a mind blowing time is mind blowing. And which is, this is the thing. So, you know, when we talk about music, and we talk about rhythm. So rhythm is just fractions of time divided. Okay. And then if we keep going, and we keep dividing and dividing and dividing, dividing, divided by the value, that we get pitch, and then pitch and how fast how fast, you do want to play with the sound waves, because you know, and it's like, and then you keep going, going, going, going, going, you'll get light. And so, you know, so that's, that's the thing, because quantum physics, this is a thing, like when we talk about light frequency, you know, we talk about sound frequency, we're talking about how fast things are vibrating. And, you know, so it's, that's pretty, pretty interesting. I love that sort of stuff is so cool spins. Yeah. I mean, and, you know, part of the reason why I've reposted that is is, you know, something that we really have to be mindful of, and I have to remind myself all the time, is the amount of distractions. You know, it's like, it's like, we almost live in a society that is just distractions, everything's a distraction. So you would have be, whether it be on TV or on your phone, definitely the Doom scrolling is a distraction, but it's not just the phones, it's, it's like, it's, it could be it's your job, it's whatever it is distracting you from me, you know, distract me from being present. And we're coming back to the relationship stuff before just being present with you know, and we're all guilty of, of being distracted while while a loved one wanted us. And, you know, we were so into it, we're into a rabbit hole. We're like, well, hang on, don't interrupt me because I'm so into this distraction. So, you know, I've been thinking about distractions a lot and being present and you know, and that fact that you can't, you know, you can't get you can't get that back. You can't get that time that being present with somebody. If you're fully there with somebody and you know who Oh, that person is, you know, you can, you know, that moment is going to be as precious as I said we're going to be. But if you're distracted, then you know, that moment. There's lost. Yeah. So and that's it and that you can't get that target time back. Yeah. Yeah, you can't get it back. It's gone. So, but you can be there with it when it's happening. And that's a that's a, that's such a, you know. That's they, that's what they should be teaching in schools. But instead, instead of my kid came home the other day, and he goes, Dad, that I learned something that at school, I'm like, Oh, what do you learn? He goes, if I have my left hand in my hoodie, I can actually be on my phone in the middle of the class and the teacher. Right? It was Yeah. And misaligned even sees and I'm like, Wow, you did learn something today. You know, it's like, yeah. So But isn't it great that I that now you're literally in the trenches? Now you're teaching the teacher? I'm gonna say teaching the teachers, you're sharing your experience with it? Yeah. Yeah. And allowing that to change it from the inside. Yeah, it's the ultimate sort of Gotcha. Isn't it? Like, haha, I'm right here now. Yeah, doing this, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it was, it's, it's, it's, you know, we talk about, you talk about imagination. And if you, I was reading, I heard quote, the other day of something he was about, you know, if you're imagining something, you're literally bringing it into existence. So it's like a movie for the premiere of a movie. So just like that ARIA thing came into existence, you know, me being a crack in the system, sort of manifested over time, because that was where, you know, your life had some intellect. So if you have positive thoughts about about where the future could be, you know, then most more than likely, you're gonna end up, you know, in that in that scenario, some one way or another. Yeah, it just seems to be like that. But if you're if you're always, you know, negative, and you have that negative, and I was like, Oh, my God, I'm not gonna have anything after this finishes and blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's the type of thing you sort of manifest and then all of a sudden, you don't have anything. Yeah, you make your reality happen. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy. It is in positive ending, it is. You know? And, yeah, so yeah, that's, that's the way it is, there's always there's always someone that's going to have an easier path. There's always someone that's going to have a tougher path. Yeah, I'm going back to when you had to have the twins? And how did your sort of concept of yourself your own identity change when you became a dad? When I think back to those hazy times, it is a bit of a haze. We don't know what it was like to have one kid. So you know, it was always too. And. And, you know, it was just asking about Gambia, so there was no, there was no real like family network that was able to be here. So it was very tiring. And it was very, I don't think the concept of myself changed at all. One thing that I wasn't ready for is like, when my wife was pregnant. I remember. I mean, at first, the first looking after looking after this, this unborn baby here, scared that something was going to happen, you're scared that, you know, eat the wrong food, or whatever it was. We actually got a phone call from the doctor 20 weeks into the pregnancy, and it was something's something's happening this, we've got some results that are that don't look very, very promising. That's like the chromosome test. And so we had this conversation about, you know, what, what would happen if if this was the case, you know, and so and it was, it was quite foreign. But we hadn't had a ultrasound yet. And so when we went to the doctor, put on the ultrasound, and he goes, Well, you went for an amniocentesis that needle thing. And the doctor goes, well, here's your baby's heartbeat. It goes on. See this thing? Here's your other baby's heartbeat and he was gone. Oh my God, we've just gone from thinking something's wrong with the baby to we're having another baby. So it was in May. It was that was a roller coaster. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, really exciting. hugely exciting. I mean, I was excited to have twins. But me as a person It didn't change. I felt, I felt great because, you know, because I felt like me. I didn't feel any pressure to be a different person. I was already a teacher, so I had that experience with older kids. You know, I wasn't much of a colicky sort of guy, you know, sort of like the girls had a baby or something like that. I'd be like, Yeah, I can keep the baby. I still am that guy. I'm still around, you know. But yeah, it was different when when are my own? So you know, I guess you just have so much love for the kids that. I mean, yeah. So it was probably wasn't a thing. My identity probably wasn't much of a thing to me at that time. And that it was just his head down. You know, it was go, it was because it was go all the time. And there was no time to do anything else. But do parenting. Yeah, really. In that time there was work. And then there was parenting. And there's probably a little bit of sport that went on as well. And so there was a lot of juggling between my wife and I and all that stuff. But yeah, I think I remained reasonably intact. I still saw myself as an immature young boy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It probably wasn't until I turned 50. Where I've gone might not be that little immature like 16 year old that you've always thought you'd been even in your 40s. Again, time it's a it's an interesting concept. Like, you just think I don't feel any different to how I've always felt my whole life. But I look different. People think you'd be different because you're getting older, but you just feel exactly the same. Yeah, it's such a weird thing. Yeah, it's yeah, it's still that same inside of your consciousness, you still that same person that you were, you know, you read my report, remember, read my report, when I was in primary school, still, they still that kid, probably distract the class less. You know, I still got the if I'm in a big crowd that when we have in front of someone who is trying to do something, you know, still feel the urge to distract people because I'm distracted. You know, I talked about distractions before, but my brain is distracted all the time. With whatever. Yes, yeah. Yeah. So when did you then we were able to point to things to sort of sit down with the boys and you're able to get back into your music. So what happened was it was being organic, really. I was just thinking, what? When was it that happened? So the what happened was, it was the first time where as for sort of, we'd bought a house, we bought a cheap house was getting a pretty good wage. And I remember buying a guitar. As a first it was a guitar that I wanted ever since I was a kid. And I had the money to buy it. And it was all systems go and bang, I bought it. That really sparked my, my interest. And then what I did was, as soon as, as soon as that comes back to you, you know, after you've had your head down for so long, and the kids were still, you know, that one, the red one then, and maybe a little bit younger. But you know, but the first six months is head down and get, you know, you're doing literally everything for kids. Yeah, everything except for breathing. Yeah. And I ended up enrolling in this online course at Berklee School of Music, which is orchestrating for film and TV. And that's where I did all my theory chops and all my orchestration skills and everything like that. And I found that, you know, in in looking back on that, that kitten that certainly kept me grounded through that period of parenting with music connected with music, and ended up landing me the job because then I had some sort of qualification behind me. That wasn't just education based. So, you know, that was sort of worked in really beautifully. And then we only had two years before we got the next one. So you know, and then it was head down again. And, you know, I don't remember, like the specifics of that time. I've kept a journal of that sort of stuff. And so, you know, you can look back at those times. I know looking at the videos that our house is trashed, like, you know, as soon as, you know what we had for under four under four, definitely for under five anyway, the house, you know, and my kids always doing shows and, you know, show means that you have to have a Stage and Stage means you have to have every blanket in the house draped over chairs, and you have to buy the tickets and all that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's a theatrical production. That's right. It's funny, it's funny, but it's and all the toys and you just get toys. And then they have a birthday and you get more toys. And they're like, you know, so. I know, when we had that first lockdown. Last, we decided that we tried to start to declutter, and so we had so much stuff that so much stuff. Oh, my God, particularly, particularly out toys and stuff like, that the kids really didn't really play with. There's a few toys they played with. But you know, there were there were definitely like cardboard box kids. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's something that's. Yeah, that said, you know, we talk about capitalism and consumerism. And at the end of the day, all they needed was a cardboard box. It's the old joke, isn't it? Like you give the kid for the Christmas present. And I play with the wrapping bag. Like, it's just like, the whole thing just frustrates me. I was on the airplane come back from LA the other day, and I was thinking, how did it all start? Like, how did it actually start? That that became important? And then what role is advertising played in, in that to get inside people's minds and make people think they need to have this and they have to have this? And you know, I love madmen. That's one of my favorite TV shows. Okay. Some, it's based in the 50s. In the 60s, in New York City, it's an ad agency. And like, you sort of think, when you watch it, I don't know how much of its true. But you think, well, that's why we all want such and such because somebody told us we, you know, I just, I, I wish I would understand more about it. Like, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's super powerful psychology, you know? Yeah. And it's all it's all to make make people money. You know, that's, that's what it is. It's about, you know, who wins, wins, wins the most whatever, you know, but, you know, it goes that I don't know how we got how we got there, you know, you know, it's a, it's a strange thing, you can have everything you want, without having that. But, you know, I heard a good story about that the other day, you guys can't put it into context of something about this guy's fishermen. And you know, he did official day, and get all this beautiful fish and take 100 His wife and make love to his wife and his beautiful, beautiful life. And one day, this other, this other person comes along and says, Well, why don't you? Why don't you fish like this. So you can then sell, you take some of the fish, and then you can sell some of the fish. And with that money you buy given so you buy a bigger boat, and then you can do more more fishing and get more efficient, and you can buy fleet of boats, and then you know, and the guy will go, okay, and then what would I do? Yeah, you know, then you can franchise it out. And you can, you know, have an international cooperation, you want to learn what I do? Yeah. But at the end of the day, you know, he already he goes, Why would I want to do that already? Has every you know, because yeah, then what would you do? Well, you can have everything you want, because I've already got everything I want. And that's that type of thing. Yeah. Where we don't think like that, as a society. You know, there's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of pressure to be thinking about, and schools do it. So let's do it right at the beginning, what are you going to be when you grow up? Yeah, you know, yeah, it's like, and the answer is, well, I'm going to be me, when I grow up. That's true. That's what I'm going to be I'm going to be me, you know, I'm not defined by what I do. You know, I'm not defined by I'm not defined by, you know, being working in a cafe or that doesn't define me, you know, not even being on stage defines me. I'm just me. You know, there's just trying to put my best self forward to the world and you know, that's, that's not what we teach. We teach, you know, you've got to get this job. If you don't do this, then your options are. Oh, you know, it's like, what complete bullshit. Actually, your options are. What Yeah, whatever you want to make them to be like and Your options can be anything you want to have to school. So that's why I keep telling Alex, like, he's at that point now, like choosing subjects for what you want to be when you grow up. And I just keep reminding him that I found the best job I'd had. Up until recently, only nine years ago. And about three months ago, I found the best job that I've ever had in my life. You know, like, you just cannot expect someone to know at that point in their life, anything about the job they're going to do? Because they haven't been in the world and experience things and seeing what they might like or might not like, yeah, how can you? How can it's all this towards this end goal? I can't, like have these experiences as they're going through, you know, each day be? What are we going to do today? That's going to be great, rather than let's look 30 years in the future and see what's gonna happen there. And you miss out on all this? What's in front of you? Yeah, yeah, that's right. And, you know, the subject selection in my eyes should be about whatever makes you happy. You know, what, what you think you can be, you have the most fun or that sort of stuff. You know, not because all your mates are doing it. But you know, kids want to do that they want to do something, because they might spend that not might not be the best thing for them to do. Not not not in every circumstance. And I my children would literally choose something because they might so doing it. But I'd rather than that I'd rather than go or what is my interests? Yeah. Where does that lie? Like, who cares about if it's going to lead to whatever, because you can do that later anyway? No, it's not. Nothing's finite. Oh, that's it isn't? Yeah. And that's what I did. You know, I 24 years old, or whatever I was did the stat test. So instead of slugging over a year of year 12, I did a two and a half hour test. And you want to know, yeah, I'm a teacher. Yeah. Got a degree? Yeah. Yeah. Now that's like, yeah, I say now, it's just he was saying, What do you want me to do when I grow up? And I'll say the same thing, like, whatever makes you happy, you know, been to financial planner. So he brings that other side of all, we have to have enough my live on? Yes. One that I know that. But you still have to enjoy yourself every day. You know, you have you actually have to have a reason to get out of bed and think What am I going to do today? That's, you know, contribute to the world? And I don't know. Yeah, well, that means I. Yeah, that's, uh, yeah, putting through and that's that thing about being an artist, you know, I'd love to be an artist, but I can't put the food on the table, the practicalities of you have mouths to feed. You know, I could do it. I could, you know, I'd be quite happy living out of like, a tiny house and off grid or whatever, just to start and just doing sound and stuff like that. But you know, when you have responsibilities, responsibilities, when they all move out? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I've kind of finished asking the main questions aren't cool. Do you have anything else you wanted to share? around this topic? That's sort of on your mind. Oh, we've been quite we've talked about life universe and everything. We have covered a lot. Yeah. I mean, it's probably important to it's probably important to note that you know, the partnership I have with with my wife is that she's, she's, she's not creative, you know, she's practical. And and that sort of makes for a you know, this stability in particularly in my sort of crazy stinking start type of thing so that's probably something that's that's worth that's worth mentioning that that sort of made it work may will gave me the the license to be creative as well. To know that that practical side of things getting looked after and you know, finances and all that little that type of thing so that's probably something that's that's helped a lot throughout the throughout the child rearing years as well and having you know, and also she's really good at this because the full boys there's so much stuff on and someone's got to be here and someone's got to be Oh, yeah, yeah. And and there's and there's excursion on this day, and then there's a carnival over here and then there's we have to go away for six hours or whatever it is all those types of things. You know, she manages all of that. I don't really want I'd just you know, it's literally Ah, you What's going what's happening? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's been an important thing that's allowed me that's, that's, you know, I'm grateful that that's allowed me to have that. That license to think think out in the clouds and out in the cosmos wherever my brain goes while I'm trying to think of new ways to explore sound and music. So, yeah. Good on it. It to me it takes a team doesn't it? Like it's you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, it would, you know, it's obviously much. I mean, it has its challenges as well. So you got to gotta acknowledge that it's, you know, that takes work. And it's not just something that sort of is something you just breeze through. Yeah. Conversation certainly change from talking about stuff to talking about children. Yeah. And yeah, that's it. And then you just go to sleep because it's stuffed Yeah. Plenty of times now where sleep before? Tick, they're older children. Yeah. And, you know, they're not too bad though. They're, they're pretty good at getting themselves to sleep. But they say teenagers have a completely different body clock. Yeah, they do. They designed. They're designed to, they're designed to and this is, again, you know, this SSID is strange. But yeah, teenagers are designed to get up later and go to go to sleep later and get up later. Yeah, that's what they're there's Cayden rhythms. That's what they're designed to do. Who knows what that's for? I don't know what that's for. I read any research. This is the thing, right? Like, this is the I was reading about this the other week. Because same thing, Alex is up, I go to bed, and he's up for like, 14, it was up to me. And it's like, what special pair I have these kids got that were stifling, because we're making them get up and go to school at eight in the morning. Yeah. What are they supposed to be doing with this? Well, you know, if you think about the way I like to think about these things, is that, you know, if humans have been around for like, who knows? Like, I'm gonna just pull out 100,000 years, you know, we've spent the last, you know, say 90 90,000 years in this evolving as humans like, that tribal sort of situation. And what were they what were the what were teenagers? Doing? Yeah. What is their role late at night, up until about 12 o'clock, when someone else might have taken over from whatever they were doing? Yeah, keeping the community doing something. Who knows? I'm just guessing, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And then we've just gone shook. Yeah, yeah. Everything we have. And we've, we've, we've, it's good. The cookie cutter, you know? And, you know, but it's funny, because, you know, we look, you look back to Pink Floyd the wall. And that's what that was all about, you know, and we're still I mean, we wrote a musical about Mark back, we wrote a musical about that, you know, and we wrote a musical about, you know, music had been ousted in society. And if you were caught playing music you'd be asked to do to wastelands. And, you know, and that all came from the psychological damage that this the leader of the community had as a child. Right. And that's pretty deep in US. Classic. It's classic. Yeah. It was, it was it was a classic show will well, quite intense about, about the system and the education system. And, you know, and the way that sometimes it gives, it also gives people interesting positions of power as well. And they might not always be the right person for that particular role that they're doing. And, you know, and everyone, everyone listening would have had that experience in schools, you know, whether, you know, whether it was a teacher, or somebody else but someone that was just abusing their, their power. And that's another interesting thing about because they're the school models in the world where the kids actually choose Is the employment that happens that that the school including the principal and everything that yeah, Sudbury schools? Yeah. And they don't have to study anything. They can spend their time playing video games if they choose where are the sky? And I don't know if there are any in Australia or not say, wow, there's interviews with schools and so some kids are works and doesn't work for all kids. But yeah, see, that's the thing isn't nothing's going to because there's not a one size fits. It's not a one size fits all. Yeah, well, you know, yeah, like, yeah, yeah. So So were you able to use your platform as like, writing these musicals to, to sort of I don't want to say we're putting ideas into children's head, but you were you were getting your ideas across of your thoughts of the schooling system and challenging and perhaps getting the kids to think about things a bit differently? Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. Probably didn't think of it like that. But yeah. You know, that. What are we going to tell the kids? No, we wanted. So what we wanted, what we really wanted, when we did our musicals was that we wanted to, because I was sick of seeing these musicals that were meant for adults, you know, they were and you just see kids playing out our roles. And it's like, Well, it'd be, it'd be much more appropriate if kids could play kids roles. And what we wanted to do was empower kids in the musical. So the heroes, we're always going to be the kids, the kids save the day. And then all three musicals that we write kids save the day, because it's empowering for the kids. And they are, you know, most of them are playing kids. There's some kids that play on this, because you can't get around that. So that was the main thing. But yes, we were talking about, we're talking about issues that that we liked to talk about, that we were passionate about, you know, and the first one was the education system. The second, the second one was the earth. Yeah. And it was built around this story about some, some indigenous people were talking about the effects of uranium mining in Central Australia. So it was built around that idea. And then the third one was a multi storey development going to be built on top of this beachfront. And the kids are worried about their Lou's gonna lose their fish and chip shop. So and of course, there was a local environmental problems as well. And it was all about plastic. And that's the stuff. So we had stuff that we were sort of really passionate about, we wanted the kids to know about. And we wanted, you know, we wanted them to know that this is this is this is the world you growing up in. And there's no reason why you can't be a hero in that world. And that's sort of where we giving them the eight ships of agency that they can have an impact, even though in in the world set up of the adults are in charge, and the adults do everything. But the kids actually, they have so much power that they can, you know, bring? Yeah, well, I mean, you know, literally the kids, the kids are the future. So, I mean, you know, and we're stuffing up their world. Yeah, I mean, seeing Whitney Houston, yeah. But she was right, she was in school rock, Jack Black says that the staff, you know, teach them well and let them lead the way. Frequency Fridays, every second Friday, I'm going to be offering some type of sound bath at the inner Sanctuary Collective and be super reasonably priced. And the idea is to build a community around sound, which is when price gets so reasonably. And there'll be different things. But at the end of the day, you know, the themes are just there for a framework, you can come for any type of experience. I like that. I might have a, I might have a stillness theme where everything is going to be a bit still or might have an electric theme or everything's going to be electric. You just see where it takes you. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. And, yeah, I'm pretty excited about that. That's, you know, I think that for it to happen, I need to I have some consistency. So you know, try and offer it. Yeah, every fortnight. Yeah. And yeah. And if people want to find out which fortnight so you're just hitting me up on Instagram is the best thing to do. So, yeah, I'll put the links in the show notes. Yeah. today. Thank you so much for coming on, Scott. It's been an absolute pleasure. I've really enjoyed this chat. We've gone to some deep, interesting places, and I've really enjoyed that. Thank you. Yes, absolutely. My pleasure. Have a lovely day. You know, just have a feeling. Yeah, let the conversation sort of late itself. So yeah, very grateful. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Monika Crowley Irish print maker, oils artist and visual artist S2 Ep27 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Monika Crowley, a printmaker, oil painter and visual artist from Dublin, Ireland, and a mother of 2. Monika spent 20 years in commercial advertising and design, to which she credits her bold graphic style. Her practice explores the trauma of change and identity crisis, domesticity, the traditional structure of the home & the changing expectations of modern motherhood. Monika uses mundane objects in a symbolic, transformative manner whereby they become totems & talismans of the past. Monika strives to capture the essence of a mothers guilt, the feeling of being torn in two and the resentment from the other self. A decade on, her work still documents the internal struggle between the selves Mother/Artist. Her work walks a line between anger & love, between despair & joy, her explorations of the everyday are often raw and unadulterated, showing a grimness through the repetition of daily chores, but at times finding a quiet beauty in the mundane. We also have a little chat about the Irish horse racing industry, of which Monika's father and her family were a significant part of. **This episode contains discussions around Cancer, grief and loss of a parent** View Monika's work Space Invaders , - https://www.instagram.com/p/CPlzt6pnaCX/ Motherload - https://www.instagram.com/p/CUki0cdsH9-/ Compart Mental Isation - https://monikacrowley.com/blog/ Monika's website - https://monikacrowley.com/ instagram - https://www.instagram.com/monikacrowley/ Watch a murmuration - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4f1r80RY Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo - Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for tuning in today. My guest on today's episode is Monica Crowley. Monica is a printmaker, oil painter and visual artist from Dublin in Ireland and a mother of two. Monica has spent 20 years in commercial advertising and design, to which she credits her bold graphic style. Her practice explores the trauma of change and identity crisis, domesticity, the traditional structure of the home and the changing expectations of modern motherhood. monarchy uses mundane objects in a symbolic transformative manner, whereby they become totems and talismans of the past. Earlier Prince had their starting point in motherhood as a rite of passage. They served as a memoir comm warning about nostalgia for retro culture at a time when mothers were not expected to juggle jobs and families. Monica strives to capture the essence of a mother's guilt, the feeling of being torn into and the resentment from the other self. A decade on her work still documents the internal struggle between the selves, mother and artist. Her work walks a line between anger and love, between despair and joy. Her explorations of the every day, are often raw and unadulterated, showing a grimness through the repetition of daily chores, but at times, finding a quiet beauty in the mundane. We also chat a little today about Monica's connection to the Irish racing industry. This episode contains discussion around grief and loss. Welcome along today, Monica. It's a pleasure to have you all the way from Ireland. Thank you very much for coming on. Thanks, Alison. And thanks for doing it at my local time when the kids were in schools. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have people constantly opening the door behind me. I can understand that. Now. It's pretty good here. It's almost eight o'clock at night. So it's a pretty good time for me to so the kids will be off to bed and I won't have to worry about doors at my end too. So we're about in Ireland, are you? I'm in Dublin. So it's gray and cold out my window. We had a bit of snow last week, but it seems to be hopefully brightening up this week a little bit. Oh, I'm jealous because we don't get so where I am. It just doesn't. It's not cold enough. And I've spent well I shouldn't say I'm jealous today because I've spent the day swimming and a little bit sunburn you might be able to see. But I never had the story. Like it's something I've never, never done been in the snow so well. Unfortunately, Irish snow is generally wet and sleety every now and again. We get you know decent snow but it's not. It's not a country for skiing snowmen every now and again. Yeah. Oh, that's fun. Share with us. What sort of art that you make. So I suppose up to recently have been predominantly a printmaker. I used to work in advertising and design. So I think printmaking was a really natural step for me because they kind of understood, you know, color mixing and separations and plates and that kind of technical aspect of the process. So and also because I was back then, I was renting. I didn't have studio space. So being part of a print, making studio I'm a member of the Black church print studio. And it was a good way to have a place where I could go and work and keep all my stuff and keep my art practice going. While I was still working as well, so, yeah, yeah, in the last couple of years, I've, my practice has kind of changed a bit, I suppose, because of lockdown printmaking, and go into my print studio was a lot harder the studio was closed up. So I did a lot more drawing at home and painting. So I'm, I'm actually doing a lot more oil painting at the moment. Yeah, that's cool. What do you prefer to do? Do you like your, your printmaking better? Or? I don't know, are you sometimes feel like there's this hierarchy in the art world stuff. I'm like, you sometimes hit a wall and you go, you know, am I getting that response, because I'm a printmaker, and the value of printing is perceived as lower. So I, you know, I sometimes come up against it. And I find it quite frustrating that the value of a print even though it's like quite a hard technical process to do, somebody described at one says, like, totally over complicating the process of creating art is so as I think, I suppose, as well, being able to join lock downs, and all I've been able to keep my practice going and being able to draw and paint at home, made me realize, you know, sometimes, actually, that remove of going to a print studio. While it's nice, it's nice to be able to get up in the morning and sneak an hour before the kids get up in, you know, in my home studio. So, and I guess then if, if you have an idea anytime you can sort of act on it, rather than have to keep it till you can physically get to the Fluffies. Yeah, exactly. And I suppose you keep your notebooks going, although I do find myself, you know, sneaking upstairs and saying, I just have to go do something and running upstairs and getting stuck into something. Because now I can. And, you know, I, I tell the kids, I'll be back in 10 minutes, you know, do your homework, and I come back 45 minutes later, an hour later. They're watching TV and the homework isn't done. And I'm like, oh, god, okay. It's very hard to, to thread that balance. I think one of the things people have talked about on your podcast before, and it probably comes up a lot is that struggle between when you're in the mother role, you constantly you never switch off being an artist to your head, you constantly frustrated that wanting to get back to your canvas. But, you know, when you're working at your canvas, if you can hear your children in the vicinity, your mother had never switches off either. So there's just this constant struggle for space in my brain, I feel. Yeah. So you said you had the notebooks is that something a tool that you use to sort of to help, obviously, to make notes, but to bring yourself into this space and say, right, I'm gonna make a note, then I can, you know, relax my brain, because now I've got that written down. I can move on sort of thing. Yeah, absolutely. Because you're constantly getting distracted and interrupted, and then when I go to sit down or get my students like, Oh, my God, what, what was that? Like, I had this flash of genius. Now, I can't remember it. So, and if I don't have my notebook to hand, like, I will use my phone to document it, or I will use notes a lot on my phone as well. You know, I take photographs and and notate it and then I can come back to it. At least I've recorded it, but I do. I do think keep a notebook. So is it a good practice? So kind of, then you can make sense as you. You see things develop and you go oh, yeah, actually that came from way Back, when I actually have a note of that, it will could take months to act on something that they've actually written down. So that would be fascinating actually, at the end of a project, and then you've got this record, and you can browse back through and go, Oh, yeah, like you said, you can see where it started. Or you might even see something and go, Oh, I sort of, you know, I might have bypassed that, but now I'm interested in that, or, you know, it's, it'd be awesome to have that that record. I worked in advertising and design for about 20 years, when I, when I was a kid, I just always wanted to go to art college, I had, which I got to go to art college, but I had to persuade my parents that, you know, I would get a job at the end of this. So I studied, I actually went to art college studying Industrial Design, which is product design. Yeah. And, you know, until my mother Oh, I mean, practically engineering. She, if she did that, then I kind of segwayed and took a very, you know, a long route through art college. And I actually finally graduated in Visual Communications, which meant I went into graphic design and then into advertising from there. So, so that, but at the same time I was working, and it was creative. And it was a really good grounding. Like, I don't regret the course, or the, the journey my practice has taken because it's really good grounding in notebooks and research and because you always have sketchbooks on the go, and you're always sketching out ideas, and, you know, and having to articulate ideas and concepts. So that's, and I even, like, even when you're designing, I always felt there had to be thinking behind it and concept behind us. So and that's how my art practices as well. I find it very hard to do a picture that doesn't have some kind of personal or autobiographical meaning for me, I don't just sit down and do something that looks nice. It's just, it's a weird layer to put on myself. i Some people are just able to enjoy the process of painting. And but, uh, sometimes I feel like, you know, I think about it, I overthink things maybe, I don't know, is it sort of like a way of processing experiences or remembering things or making sure you remember things is anything like? Yeah, I think actually, my art is really therapy. For me, it's how I work through my own emotions. Like, initially, I know my, my print practice, it started, I was actually doing a lot of prints of places I traveled and using photographs I took and I think when I became pregnant with my first child, it just this huge wash of terror and emotions. And you know, this, the weight of expectation of, you know, actually, I often say is, in my like, artist statement, like, my work is all about identity crisis. And you know, and I think that was the point when my art practice changed to become this personal thing, where I needed art to work through my own emotions to try and make sense of them. And sometimes I'll do like a body of work and then step back from it and go, Okay, now I understand what that was about. And this is an I can totally see. When I finished, where it all came from, and kind of understand myself that little bit Battery tech Yeah? I wanted to ask you flooding leading to a beautifully there's there was a piece that I saw on your Instagram account that you called Space Invaders. And I won't try and describe it, I'll let you describe it. Can you just share the background for that and what the inspiration was for that for that pain? Yes. So that was a print actually, I have, I think I have a sketch up on my wall, you can kind of see up there behind me. So that actually was a project that stemmed from the initial lockdown, and I was doing a lot of work at home. And I eventually took over the children's playroom, which is where I am now. And it became my home studio. So all the shelves around me, which is now full of my stuff was was initially full of the kids toys, and it's where they came and played. So I set up a desk here and I started working here. But you know, the kids, there was this constant kind of battleground, I saw my desk as this battleground, like I would leave to go down and make dinner or whatever, and then come back and I would find some of the children's toys like propped up like, obviously, on my desk, either abandoned, or like deliberately put there as almost like, some kind of protest that you undertake, they claim back on their face. Yeah, exactly. It became this disputed territory where, you know, it's like, that's our room. No, it's my room now. So if it was this, so the print behind me there, it's, I think I call that one cutting ties. And it was I came back and my son's toy Hulk fist was balancing on top of my scissors on my desk. And I was like, on it, there's just something so aggressive, but yet so playful about it, you know, and that was you know, and I have another one that I call mother's bottle and it was my child my daughter's doll naked, because they don't know what the clothes from my children's dolls just they never seem to have them on. And, and had knocked over my water bottle and spilled water across my desk. And I just, you know that it kind of brought up so many different kinds of images and emotions like that doll very much represents my daughter, and even just the water bottle in a way kind of represents me and it's that whole being torn into of having these two cells that are constantly vying for your attention. Your art it's that struggle I mentioned earlier, where half your brain is thinking about ideas and half your brain is thinking about what's for dinner. Let's see at the exact same moment. Yeah, it never stops so going back to your early days when you say like you had to convince your mom to to let you do your study. Were you always a very creative child growing up? Yeah, I think so. Well, it's I always loved painting and always loved art and always wanted to be an artist. My family, I live in Dublin now but I grew up down in Kilkenny. And my mom always had this thing my family my dad was a racehorse trainer. And we I have five sisters. So the six girls, we all worked with horses. is all the time. But my mum was always like we're always having broken arms and broken legs and ending up in hospital. And she used to say to us, I don't care what you do when you grow up, you'll have your own jobs and your own lives. I don't want you to work in horse racing, or art of this of the six girls for have ended up in horse racing. And two, I'm an artist and my other sister has an art gallery. So I think I think she could just see the way things were going, like, really early on, and she tried to redirect us. But I think once your brain is set on something, you know, you're going to end up there. If you're driven enough, no matter how much you're kind of diverted, you're going to weave back around to what you really want. So yeah, that's it. There's there's no stopping that. That inner passion. I don't think it's just an even if you try to try and stop it. It's yeah, it still tries to creep out does that. Yeah. Do you? You mentioned your children a little bit too. Can you tell us how many children you have a little bit about your family? Yeah, I have two children, a 10 year old daughter. She's the eldest and a seven year old son. And yeah, they're, they're great. They're the at a really good age, I think. And I, I always, when I was younger, I didn't ever know. I couldn't ever imagine me with babies. Because I was the youngest of my family, I'd never even held a baby. When I was about 16. I went to France and worked as an au pair, where I looked after a baby, it was my first time ever even holding a child. Even I wasn't one of those people in school who went you know, as the younger groups came into school that I would go and oh, the new kids are in Yeah, I actually really didn't care about anybody younger than myself. I always wanted to hang out with people older than me. So I think that's why when I was pregnant with my first child, it was kind of traumatic of like, I don't think I can do this. I could see myself with older children, but never with babies. But obviously, like now, 10 years on, I realized that everybody's just learning as they go along. And you know, babies are quite forgiving. They love you. No matter how terrible you are as a mother. Thank goodness for that. Yeah, so do you, when you when you had your first child, your daughter, where you work while you're doing your art, like a lot at the time, and did have to sort of stop? Or did you manage to keep going? How did it sort of work? Weirdly, I think it amped up a bit at the time, because I mentioned earlier. I, my art had been about traveling and things like that. And then suddenly this fear of you know, motherhood and what was expected of me. And, you know, I worked full time and all my spare time was given to my art. And now I was going to be a mother and working. So working motherhood on art. I was like, how do the three things fit into each other. But like I said, I needed the therapy, almost of doing the art. So my first solo show is is was called domestic. And it was about when my mom found out I was pregnant. She sent me her recipe for brown bread. Actually, she ran me and said, I'll give you my recipe for gram bread now and I was like, oh my god is that who will I will become this person who makes bread. And I just couldn't get my head around it. Because I'm a terrible Baker and I still am. So I just said no, I can't even deal with you've given me this recipe over the phone. So she wrote it down and sent it to me in a letter. So I had this letter. And that was the starting point for doing this whole series. called domestic, which was about the fear of becoming a mother. But it was centered around, I always use kind of ordinary objects to kind of trigger emotion. And you know, this kind of sense of recognition yourself like, like, oh, so I use the recipe for brown bread. And I did make the brown bread once. really badly. No, it was edible. We'll just leave it at that. But isn't that interesting? That's like, your mom sort of had it was almost like this initiation. It's like, okay, now you're allowed to know these these things you weren't allowed to know before. This Fascinating, isn't it? Yeah. Well, it's not that I wasn't allowed to know them. It's like, she just thought I would have no interest in nowhere, which I did. I didn't have any interest in making brown bread. And then when I was told, Oh, now you'll probably want to make brown bread. I was like, oh, so me as a person, I'm going to change completely. Yeah. Okay. I had never even thought that. But actually, I didn't, I never became this person who made brown bread. So I can sort of like, if you're already feeling a little bit anxious about everything. And then to get that and to have that, that moment of going, Oh, hang on a sec, I'm going to these all these changes are going to happen. Like that would have been quite startling, like, not very reassuring. Yeah, like the whole pregnancy and your body changing and all that that's a very physical and normal and well kind of documented kind of process that you can google and go, Okay, that's totally normal. What I wasn't prepared for I think, was just the avalanche of advice, and all these conflicting things that people are telling you and telling you about the person you will become. And I was like, I don't want to change I still want to be me, you so can I not be me, an artist and a mother and still do my job. But, of course, some things do change, but some things don't. I think it's so it's so important to to keep your pre pre pray mother self, it's like, it's so important. And yeah. It's even, you know, my daughter, she keeps pointing out to me that I'm a decade now. So like, I, I can now look at the whole, the whole thing is still very fresh to me a decade later, I still very clearly remember. But the trauma of that change that was happening. And I still, I'm still struggling with my identity, like 10 years later, of how much of me is me? And how much do I give over? And even that guilt of like, am I holding myself? Too much of myself back? When I'm with my kids, I throw myself into it. And you know, I love them. And I love them, Tibet and have great fun with them. Like we have great crack, that really at a lovely age at the moment where, you know, they're interested in things and their brains are just fascinating, like, like my daughter is cleverer than I am. When we were locked down there for the last 10 days with COVID. She learned how to do a Rubik's Cube, something I have never been able to do. And I found myself last night like googling it and doing a step by step guide and I swore I wanted to throw the thing in the bin and I was like, How does she do this? She's 10 Like she has worked a site and I can't. COVID the pandemic started or whatever. I actually took a step back from work. And the work was always an important part of my identity as well. I was a creative director and an advertising agency when all this hat and I just did took a step back and needed to be with the children. And it was just this, like a one stop, it was kind of taken away, I realized how much of myself I was giving to work, actually. And when it was just divided between my art and my children, I actually saw that that's where a lot of the struggle was happening. But also, I realized how much of myself I'd been given away to work. And because I suppose also your job is creative. It sucks a lot of the creative energy out of us so, but I still, I feel like now I have a much better life balance where it's, you know, probably I was gonna say 50% Children 50% Or it's but it's probably 70% Children 30% ours if I was to be totally honest. With the guilt then, do you ever feel like the pool between, like, do you ever consciously have that thought I shouldn't be doing this art now. Because the kids are meant to be doing their homework and I need to check on it. Like, does it feel like that? That Oh, all the time, all the time. It never stops. If when I'm doing one thing, I feel like I should be doing the other. If and then, you know, then I have like a my different kind of selves start to resent each other. You know, I feel like there's a constant struggle in my head, I have to say, where if I'm in the zone painting. And I'm just thinking, Oh, I just I just need half an hour. And I hear myself saying that the children are knocking at the door. Because they're hungry, or, you know, I want to do this or can you open that for me or you know, and I'm like, Just give me 30 more minutes, I swear, I'll be done in 30 minutes. And you know, and then when I'm i if i But if I don't get that time to do my art, I find myself just being this horrible, angry person that I don't like, you know that. You know, even though my seven year old will come and hug me he really knows how to defuse my pent up frustration, he'll come and hug me and go, Oh, Mommy, Mommy, I love you. Please don't be angry mommy, which he sees as a whole other person. And it's angry mommy who comes out when I when I just feel like I haven't been able to get into my studio and do anything. I feel. Actually, I'm just a much nicer person. When I have my art practice running smoothly as well. Like some days you really feel like you're winning and oh my god, I'm totally killing this. I'm like doing everything. You know that like, yeah, I am the woman who has it all. Oh my god, this is incredible. And, unfortunately, it's where those days are rare. But for for the most part, I can resolve the fact of you know, okay, today, I didn't spend as much time in my studio or, you know, things just didn't work out when I was there. But, you know, tomorrow will be a better day, I've become a lot better. I think actually motherhood teaches you the US you know, as babies, you're always told, you know, tomorrow will be better, you know, and not pits reset on everything. So I bring that to my own life. You know, I'm just gonna sleep on this and reset and in the morning everything will be better. So yeah, that's so true. Yeah, I remember having those feelings of when like in the middle of the night I'd just be thinking that's okay. The sun will come up in the morning and we'll just start again and just see how this makes one goes and yeah, that's a really good way of looking at you know, yeah, I don't like and you and your expectations I suppose around what what you want Want to get done and what you life allows you to get done, I suppose. Yeah. And even like just looking at children and IVIG can go to bed being these like really angry and you know, you're having a big row about something. And the next morning, they've totally forgotten about it and you're like, okay, okay, I suppose I better just forget about that too. And move on. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's so true Yep. Wanted to ask you about, there's a series that you did the compact compart mental causation. So it's spilling over the three lines. All right, this was like, personally, my my pop that passed away. Just recently, he was 1994. And when I saw the things like, I just like the birds and I don't know, it's, it was like I was meant to see it because he had pigeons. And so all these all the birds that you had, sorry, I'm talking about this, people won't know what I'm talking about. So I'll put a link up. And then the window. It was just I got really like smacked in the heart by that it was just incredibly moving. Thank you again. And like, like I said earlier, a lot of my work becomes, it comes out of me working through emotions. And just at the beginning of the pandemic, my dad passed away. Again, he was 92. It was just before his birthday is 92nd birthday, actually. And he'd been sick for a while. So my six six girls and my mom, we were down there with him when he died. And there were a couple of days where we were kind of waiting for the inevitable to happen. It was really kind of torturous, long drawn out kind of fairly traumatic, actually the whole thing. And we sat in his room and the these murmurations just started in the evening, which we didn't really have grown up when I was a kid murmuration of starlings. And it became a kind of a thing that we did, we'd go out and watch the birds and then come back in. And it's funny, like you mentioned that your your dad kept pigeons. My dad actually had this like, like, because we had racehorses, he had this thing that the birds were like eating the horses feed and shipping and the horses he used to have this ongoing battle with keeping the birds away so it was just weird that all these birds like that this became a thing and Mike my childhood growing up I won't go into the graphic stories of what happens on farms when people are trying what they kind of considered to be pest control. But my dad was not very nice to birds, I think. And we lived out in the country and it was just he just wanted them away. So it just became this weird kind of thing as I watched him die to see the birds flying around. They just seem to all most come back and I don't know I don't know if it was something that I don't even think it was his Spirit coming back as birds I don't know Was there some kind of karma in but but even even just to kind of watch the birds from his room. So it became very represent representative of him and the idea of compartmentalization was I like obviously I loved my Dad, and we all idolized him for that you could in depth, we kind of put away all the things that were bad about the person, like he wasn't a saint, and he was a tough man to grow up with me. I think he made us all quite tough. But, you know, nobody talked about any of the bad stuff at the funeral. It was all very, wasn't he great? And I think that's a very Irish thing to do. Or maybe it was, it's just something we deal with. In grief, you have to put things in boxes and kind of put them away and go, do you know what, right now I'm just not going to deal with that, I'm just going to deal with this little piece of how I'm feeling. So that's, that was how that I did a window done in the black church print studio, a little display where I actually printed a murmuration on a downstairs bathroom window from my house where my dad used to watch the birds and decide to go out and kill some of them like, to be perfectly honest. And so I actually brought a new thing into my practice as well, where it was like printing on find objects and kind of moving off paper and editions and stuff like that as well. Yeah. So it'd be just like experimenting with with things. Yeah, with materials. And just, I suppose I never really felt the need to. I think that the part of me that isn't a printmaker is I don't need to do, you know, 10 perfectly executed prints in that they are absolutely identical. For me, it's the process of printing and the process of bringing to life an idea that kind of exercises, the feelings and the emotions. And that's my therapy. And once it's done, it's done. And I find it really hard to revisit, I could never reprint anything I've printed before. Once it's done, it's gone. And yeah, that emotion has left me almost Yeah. I had cancer a couple of years ago, and some of my work was was about that. Just, I suppose in terms of me using my art as a kind of a therapy to work through stuff. So that actually was, again, a huge part of recovery. From in fact that I did a show at the time called treatment, which was obviously just coming out of treatment, and it was even kind of linked to this whole desire for things that comfort you like and looking at my children and I think at the time I was constantly like, giving them treats as well. And so the again, the words often the kind of Lincoln spark things in my head and and, you know, whereas at the time when I was sick, I couldn't really stomach sweet things, but I was craving them but like I'm feeding them to my children as a way of comforting them or compensation that mommy couldn't be there because she was in hospital or whatever. So so that was just, yeah, I think I'm tired of treatment about two years and I finished in early 2018. So gosh, four years. Good for you. Do your children. That's sort of a two part question. So your children are aware of your artmaking and your tuition? And if that's the case, is it important for you that they see that they see what you're doing and what you're putting out to the world? Yeah, I certainly don't keep them away from us. Like, on occasion, I've bought them to my print studios well, and I suppose I don't sit down and explain my work to them. But they're definitely they know that they're in the work. And sometimes I kind of talked to them about it. Like the piece I mentioned earlier motherlode where I felt I came across as quite dark and negative towards parenting. It was important to me that my children knew that, like, I love them. Absolutely, wholeheartedly. And that it was about the the accumulation and the drudgery of the little small tasks that that just get on top of you that it's not the mothering part, it's the all the little things that build and build and build. That, you know, so it's important that they know how much I love them. And that if my work deals with the network and negative aspects of motherhood, that, that it's not about them. It's about the role. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. It's not direct reflection on them personally. Yeah, absolutely. And do you sort of feel like, it's good for them to say that, like that identity, again, that, that mums can be more than, say, just a mom, because whenever just mom, but in your children's eyes, is it? Do you feel like it's good for them to see you, you know, leaving the home and doing your thing? And, you know, yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, I would hate if, like, when I'm talking about my art, I refer to it as work as well, since I left advertising and leaving the house to like, earn a wage. I suppose I did kind of feel like my art isn't necessarily earning a wage. But I refer to it as my work, because I would hate my children to differentiate between the fact that my husband works. And that his work has more value and more importance, because he gets paid for it. So there's always this balance of my art definitely does come second, as work in the house, because, you know, it can get pushed and deadlines are a little bit more flexible, and we need to pay the bills. But it's important for me that they understand that my work is important to absolutely, he put that beautifully. That was very well put. Yeah, it's interesting, you say that I refer to my music now I say, I'm going to do some music work. Because it's like, I it's so important to me. And it's not just um, fluffing around and having a bit of fun. Like, I do love it. And it's fun, but it's like, I want to get something done. I'm trying to achieve something. So to me, it's like it is work. It's labor, you know? So yeah, I've started constantly calling that. I don't know, when the kids have noticed. Yeah, but I think it just it does, it reinforces something, a degree of worth on what we're doing. And that it's not like he said, just me playing and having a nice time. Like it actually it is work it is hard to it would be very easy just to sit down and do nothing when you know, the kids are in bed or distracted with something else. So it would be easy not to do work. But the fact that you compel you're compelled to go in and work out your music and I'm compelled to go work out my art. You know, it's and I think a work a work ethic is also important. So you know, I want the guys to know that I when they go to school, I get up every day and I'm like in my studio working until I become mom and have to go pick them up and do the after school activities and stuff. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, absolutely. Literally Yep. I can't let you go without asking you about your connection to your racing family, which I did Google actually. It's pretty impressive that your sister married Aiden O'Brien. And this is Joseph O'Brien, who's where to milk and converse. I do have my nephew Joseph Joseph O'Brien. He is called Joseph after my dad's. And he trains on the hill at home in Kilkenny where my dad trained his horses. So basically, my when my sister and Marie my eldest sister got married, she married Aiden, who worked for another trainer Jim Bolger. When they got married, he moved over to us in Kilkenny, and they, my dad kind of said, Okay, you can train on, you know, my gallops and gave them kind of half of the so they built their own stables and they we all trained together. So my dad was still training at the time, and he's super competitive. So he, you know, obviously Aiden is pretty competitive as well. So, actually, my dad had handed my license his license to my sister, who then gave it transferred to Aiden when she got pregnant, which was a she was pregnant, like, very young, she thinks she was 23. So, you know, I think then, my dad just couldn't, like, cope with the fact that, you know, Aiden was in a training on the hill, even though Aiden was like, he wasn't well known back then he kind of made his name then training with my dad, and well in competition to my dad. So, like, the dinner table was always, you know, quite funny. And, you know, then my next sister married a national hunt jockey, travel Oregon. Then my next sister had an art gallery and then my next sister married paths Mullen, yep. And she was well known racehorse trainer as well. And Pat was champion, flat jockey here like, God, I don't know, 10 times in a row. And then my twin sister is married to a jockeys agent and racing pundit on a racing channel here. So that's so my, my husband's like our family gatherings like people just talk core. So I like that horse racing is always on. Probably on about three different TVs in the house. You know, when when we get together like that, people just talk horses. Yeah, I can imagine it'd be bad. Like if you didn't enjoy the trophy, just to sit there and take it. Yeah. I mean, I worked with the horses myself, like up until I was about 18 or 19. I had a jockeys license I wrote as an apprentice. Oh, yeah. But I think a lot of it was just trying to prove that I could do it. I really did not have the interest or passion for horses, like I know, I loved horses. It's not something I yeah, for the industry. I didn't want to spend my life in horse racing. Yeah. Is it really scary writing, like, riding them that fast? I'm sorry, that just came in and no, yeah, it's, do you know what it's actually it's not the speed you're going us. For me? It was the sense of control I. They're, like, it's this muscle of machine that you have to be in control of, and I just never felt in control of the horse completely. And, again, it was it's kind of a battle of wills as to whether the horse is allowing you to control it and you know, I always felt like if they weren't allowing me to, so I used To get run away with all the time I was kind of small and light, so and the amount of times like the horse would just take off at me and I like that is the scary part of it of not being in control. So I it's funny I yeah, I ended up in hospital several times with head injuries and broken legs and actually one of the pieces we discussed earlier one of my art pieces, that's the water bottle knocked over with the dead baby doll. The words bottle actually is a racing term. It's like a jockeys bottle is your bravery. So I would often like have like said to my sisters, no, I've totally lost my bottle. I can't do this anymore. A year. So in a weird way, like bottle is courage and bravery. And and that was the kind of a phrase that was in my head when I was doing that art piece. And it probably comes from my racing background Yeah. Can I ask you what you've got coming up? If you're working on anything in particular? I mean, with the COVID restrictions, I don't know if that means you can't do shows or anything. But if you got anything you want to mention. Yeah, well, I was part of a group show last year that I organized with seven other artists and I did a piece called motherlode for that, which was it was again, one off piece, it was four canvases that where I repeated these three objects over and over and over again to show this kind of build of I suppose the build of the daily burden of motherhood and parenthood. Yeah, that kind of falls to us. And when I stood back and looked at it, I had the pieces quite gray and blue and dark. And it felt like, you know, that was definitely something that was coming out of the pandemic and didn't really feel like me. So I actually have made a conscious decision where I want to do something that redresses that balance of that last piece that I feel, you know, came out of me, but maybe miss represents where I am now, you know, I've been working on a body of work called the kitchen sink, which, again, sounds depressing, and was coming from waking up every morning and making coffee and looking into my sink and going, Oh, my God, you know, there was always like some kind of dirty dishes in there that never either made it into the washing machine or were put in after the washing machine was put on. And it was like building this resentment and frustration in me. And I thought, I need to redress my thinking here and start thinking, and I started seeing the kitchen sink as an art project. So I would look in the sink and see what was in there. And it would become a memory and nice memory of the meal we'd had the evening before. So I started sketching what was in the thing, or taking photographs and sketching it later. And then working out. You know, just while I was doing that, thinking about the meal we had and the conversations we had. And suddenly it became this beautiful thing where again, I use objects to kind of symbolically word these objects in a sink became this symbolic diary entry of my life almost so can't wait. Well, it's something I've been working on for the last few months. And now I'm also just about to I was supposed to move into a new studio, which I have temporarily with Randall Arts at a local arts organization that I work with. So I'm going to take the back room here. It's an it's an initiative I want to bring to other businesses that rooms that are lying empty for businesses that they could do short term art artists residencies in there. So I'm doing a kind of a pilot scheme, I'm going to be moving into the back room of this building today, and start painting from there for a month or two months or six weeks and see how it goes. So that's kind of excited. Yeah, I'm a little bit terrified of moving to somewhere a bit more public as well, you kind of have that fear of exposing yourself of like, because not every piece works actually. Okay. And you're like going, Oh, no, that's crap, I just have to put that facing the wall. So nobody ever sees that again. Or, you know, like I am used to being in my print studio, where other people are there, and you're meeting other people. So but I, I know, was part of this, moving down to this temporary art studio. At the end of this residency, I plan to do kind of an open day in the studio and invite people in and talk about my work. Because I mean, there has to be, I wanted to be of benefit to the arts organization, as well. So there has to be kind of a quid pro quo. So so I'm interested to see how how it will affect my work. And, you know, will I even be able to work there? I'm kind of slightly terrified. It's a new adventure, I have to say, well, there you go. It'll be an interesting challenge. Yeah, yeah. I think it's, it's important to keep moving forward and do stuff that terrifies you. I try to I try to not shy away from things that scare me. So I always say to my, I always say to my daughter, you know, being brave is being scared, but doing it anyway. That's so true, isn't it because you're allowed to feel scared, but then you have to do it. Anyway. That's actually a quote that one of the girls I interviewed early in season one said said the same thing. He said, You can be scared you can be terrified out of out of your mind. But you have to do it anyway. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been lovely, was great. And it's, it's fascinating. I'm really interested in the fact that, like, sometimes we don't, I think in the art world as well, like, there's this concept of, you know, I don't want to be a mommy artists kind of talking about motherhood. And I made a conscious decision not to shy away from us, because I just, I like, it's who I am. Some people do their work, and it's escapism from, you know, the drudgery and the mundane and the every day, but I I kind of my work is my life in a way. So I just, it's a record of it or so. So I feel like it's, maybe I talk about it too much. But I think I think we don't talk about it enough. Honestly, I just think I think you're right, people have this stigma that you can't have the two coexisting. It's like, if you want to be serious, you got to just put all that to one side and just, you know, pretend it's Yeah, but it's innate. It's a part of you. And it's, you can't help but have it influence what you do, whether you realize it or not, but I think but yeah, it's maths even. Yeah, like, I remember even in work in advertising, you know, some people would, it would almost be taboo to say that you had to leave work to pick up your children, like people almost pretended they weren't parents. That's scary, isn't it? And I just feel like this is like a huge part of who I am. And I can't deny it or pretend it doesn't exist and why would I want to? So I kind of make no apologies for my art dealing with motherhood and it's nice to see that there. I see different organizations around the world. I'm a member of a group in Edinburgh called Spilt Milk. And we're again, it's a support network for artists who are mothers. And not all the work deals directly with motherhood, but it's just, it's interesting. It really makes me feel part of a community. I don't have that direct support in Dublin or in Ireland. But I find the support internationally, more readily available. So that means that's fantastic. So I was delighted to when you reached out to get in touch about it. Oh, that's great. I appreciate that. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. Are you itching for a good story? laughter among friends maybe even a mystery or two? Well, you're in luck. Five Raven kings is a standalone Dungeons and Dragons podcast. Each episode is a separate three hour long story like a movie for your ears. So you can listen to these adventures in any order you like. So join us on a real play d&d quest as we solve mysteries attempt, comedic banter and enjoy friendship. Fiber Ethan kittens podcast, fantasy, action, mystery, friendship

Lyss Morton US event florist, podcaster + entrepreneur S2 Ep72 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Lyss Morton is an event florist and entrepreneur from New Jersey USA and a mum of 2. 2 years ago Lyss and her husband began a floral design business, doing weddings and events, and floral preservation. Lyss credits her love for flowers to her grandmother. Lyss describes herself as multi passionate, and a serial entrepreneur. She produces 2 podcasts, The Making Mommy Moves podcast and The Power Couple podcast, has a digital production company called Mama Media and another florist related business. Lyss is also writing her first book and has plans for more. Today we chat about boundary setting, people pleasing, our old favourite mum guilt and cultural role modelling. **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and birth trauma** Connect with Lyss - website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. My guest this week is Liz Morton. Liz is an event florist and entrepreneur from New Jersey in the USA and a mom of two. Two years ago Listen, her husband began a floral design business doing weddings and events and floral preservation. Liz credits her love of flowers to her grandmother. She describes herself as multi passionate and a serial entrepreneur. This produces two podcasts, the making mommy moves podcast, and the power couple podcast with her husband. She has a digital production company called mama media, and another floral related business. Lisa is also writing her first book and has plans for more. Today we chat about boundary setting people pleasing our perennial favorite mom guilt, and cultural role modeling. This episode contains discussions around postnatal depression, and birth trauma. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a list of great international resources, which is listed on the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you'll hear today is used with permission from LM J, which is my new age and ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoy today's chat. Welcome to the podcast. Listen, that's really lovely to have you and to meet you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I appreciate you having me on your show. Oh, no worries at all. Now, we're about to you based. I'm in New Jersey, over across the big pond. Yeah. Yeah. Whereabouts is that in America? We're on the east coast. So right around your Pennsylvania. tri state area. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, I can visualize where that is. It's good. Yeah. And you're coming into what you call it fall over there. Do we call it autumn here? Yeah, it hit us in the face a couple of weeks ago. We have a garden that we grow in all the time. And we're like right on the cusp of everything dying. Yeah, that changes seasons. Always fun. Where where are the other side? We're coming into summer like we're in spring and everything starting to grow like crazy. And all the weeds are coming up because it's raining and feet of warmth. And yeah, I feel like I'm just forever picking waves out of a garden now. A good time of year though. Ah, do you see love say Oh, my roses have come out now. So it's it's good. Like, like this time of year? You do lots of different things, don't you but your use? Did you say am I right in saying you started out as a florist? Is that right? Yeah. Um, well, I'll give you a little bit of a backstory. I wasn't always a florist. I started as a medical biller in a chiropractic office for about 10 years of my life. And I was like, I hate this. So I started working with flowers. And I became an event florist and now we serve events all throughout New Jersey and the surrounding area, bringing weddings to life primarily for couples. And how long have you been doing that for about two years? Yes. So no, I'm, but we went. We grew really quickly in that time. Yeah. So do you do you source your flowers or do you grow a lot yourself? Or do both? Yeah, we started primarily growing our own flowers. And then it was time management wise. We couldn't with everything that we were doing for the events and planning and meeting send everything, we didn't have the time to commit to growing everything ourselves. So we like to say that we work some of our garden and grown blooms into their designs. But we actually are sourcing and then like in her bridal bouquet will incorporate some of our envelopes. Awesome. That'd be really fun. One of my favorites. My wedding was was picking out my flowers. I really enjoyed that part of it. And I reckon I spent, like, percentage wise, I spent a pretty high percent on my flowers because like, I just love them. I just wanted them to be like, really big. Yes. Oh, so what's, what are the flowers at the moment over there that a lot? Or do you buy them like from people that grow them all year round, like the stuff that's particularly in season at the moment. Right now we're finishing out the season locally, there are a couple of growers that have some greenhouses that were able to get stuff. But right now, like we're getting the end of the dahlia is for santha mums. And then like anything that is grown in the greenhouse is amazing. But we primarily sourced from other wholesalers that import flowers from, you know, the Ecuador and South America and other places like that some California stuff. So primarily, we're integrating the local flowers in with the overseas stuff. Yeah, cool. Oh, that's awesome. What made you go into flowers, we've been we've always been a gardener or just thought it would be fun to do for if I give a lot of the credit to my grandma, because she had the most amazing garden and she still does, it's, it takes up her entire backyard. And it's like on a nice beautiful creek. So it just looks like it's meant to be there. So I I blame her for my flower bug that I have. Um, but I really like I can't say that like, they were my go to thing. I loved getting flowers. And then when I wanted to create my own business, I was like, what brings me joy. And I love flowers. There was like, let's start that. And I just took every workshop and every course that I could find on the topic and dug in. Yeah. Well, that's great. Good news. And you say wait, I'm guessing that's your your husband and you work together? Yes. Yeah, we're we're good partnership. Okay, ego right together, you don't have to renew legally disagree with anything awesome. You also do podcasting, and lots of other different things. So can you share with us? What else do you do that keeps you busy? Yeah, I'm thinking to say that I'm multi passionate, I've got a lot of different things that I have going on. So I'm in the process of writing my first book, I've got a podcast, it's called the making mommy moves show. I've got our floral design business where we do events. And then we also preserve flowers for our couples and anywhere in the US or that they're able to ship them. We had one come from Mexico, where we encase their flowers and resin or press designs. We've got another business where it's very, very niche specific, we help other event floors, clean up their events. At the end of the wedding, we help them collect all the rental items and any other decor that they have. And then something more recently that I started was it's called mama media. It's a digital like production company where we do like podcast editing and YouTube Editing and stuff like that. Hmm. There's a lot of different things going on. And yeah, multi passionate, that's a great way of describing it. So you just really like, like, like doing things you like being busy and being creative. Like, that's, that's what drives you. Yes, very much. Yeah. Yeah. People think it's a little crazy. But you know, when you have a knack for something, and you just I'm, I say that I'm a quickstart personality. So it's like I get an idea. And I have to jump on it. My husband and I were actually just talking about that this morning, because it's actually a little overwhelming at times, trying to manage it all, especially being a mom and everything else that we have going on his family. So we're trying to be more intentional about the things that we take on and limit the project so that we're able to actually follow through on them too. Huh, yeah, cuz that overwhelm is a big thing, isn't it? And then you get all the different things thrown at you family wise and children wise things are always jumping up and surprising. It's out of the blue. Exactly. Tell me more about your book, what is the Book about? So I'm reading my book about different business processes as a wedding florist. I'm working with Jake Calper. Like he's doing a fun, like challenge. So every day for 90 days, we're working on a book together. And it's just an hour a day that I'm dedicating to the process. And it's been really enlightening, because he just wants you to just do it and get it done. So I'm following his framework in order to do it. Because you know, as moms and business owners, we have very little time, or at least it feels that way. So I'm just trying to break it down into smaller pieces. And it's nonfiction obviously. And I'm just trying to get the parts one done and out and make it mean something and also be helpful to other business owners and mompreneurs. And then I'm gonna move on to my next one. Yeah. So if you got, you've got your idea for you to explore, I've already got a couple of them. And it was like difficult for me to choose one. So this one is about business ownership. And then I have one that I want to like write about with my mom and like our relationship together. I've got a couple different ideas like it works. Well, that's great. So you say you, you can eat just an hour a day? Do you ever find that you just cannot get the hour in? Or is that something that you make sure you definitely do every day no matter what. I give myself some grace. So especially as a wedding florist, like we're just getting out of our peak wedding season, there were some weeks that we had four weddings in the weekend that we're trying to get out the door and servants. Obviously, they're our priority next to my kids. So it's like we're trying to make sure that they're taken care of that our contracts are fulfilled. And that's taken care of. So I am giving myself some grace if for some reason I am too busy dividend. What about your podcast? Tell us a little bit more about that. Yes, so it's called the making mommy move show. And it's primarily a come along with me, because we don't have it all figured out. But we want to be able to document the journey as we create our we have a lot of big goals that we're working towards. So one of them is financial freedom. Another is like fitness and health and just general wellness and happiness. So we want to be able to be an inspiration for other moms to live the life they want to live. Because I know too many of the ones that I grew up around, just sacrifice their life, to work the nine to five and for their kids. And it's like you can have it too. Like you can have your cake and eat it too in the sense that you can live the life that you want. So we created it as a come along with me. I share different stories and strategies and tips and just milestones in our life as we're learning different things through business ownership. But as a mom, I just want it to be really inspiring and helpful. And all the things. Yes. How long have you been doing that for now works? So not a long time. Yeah. And it's great. It all really heavy. I started off with a three time a week podcast schedule, and we're just now dropping down to once a week because it's a lot of demand. Yeah, as you know. Yes. Do you and you record like you visually record you a lot of things as well for Instagram I've seen. So that's another sort of element to it as well. Yeah, we set up the camera and the microphone, and I put it on YouTube, the different podcast platforms and then we use it for Instagram and Tiktok and things like that. I'm trying to make sure that it's more curated for the different platforms. I just today I recorded a whole bunch of videos for YouTube in particular so that it's because you know every platform is specific to their own. I want to say like audience and the way that that people interpret the information. So yeah, I'm trying to be more intentional about that too. Yeah, cuz that's it, isn't it? It's like the way people consume things on different platforms. You is very different. I actually thought it was quite funny. A comedian made a made a reel about people coming in for like a it was like an audition. And they were saying they were presenting the way they talk and they're like, right you go to YouTube and the next one coming up are your for Tik Tok. Like, it was quite funny the way it happened, but they are very different, aren't they? Yeah, like, I've been watching a lot of different content creators obviously. And like seeing the way that they put things out into the world. And it's like, third priority. So some people prioritize YouTube and some people prioritize their blogs or Tik Tok or Instagram. And I'm feeling like YouTube is actually like a good place for me. So it's like helping me to be more intentional about where I put my time and like my focus. So it's like, YouTube is growing the quickest. So it's like, oh, I need to put more of my effort there. As opposed to Instagram that's really slow. So it's like really interesting to think about that too, yeah. So you've mentioned your kids a couple of times being a mom, can you share a little bit about your children? Yeah, I've got two little girls. My oldest is two and a half. And my youngest is going to be one next week or the week after the seventh. So it's been fine with them. I had my second when I just started my business, we had a wedding do a contract. It was supposed to be two days after my due date. And I ended up like wheeling the heck out of that girl coming sooner to keep 13 days early. And tell because it's like you booked a wedding two days after your due date. And it's like, I had faith that God was gonna let me fulfill the event. He wouldn't let me book it if I couldn't do it. Oh, did say you had a 13 days early. So that means you were up and about doing this waiting? Oh, my gosh, how did that go? It worked perfectly. It was fairly small. So I had like backup plans in place, like just in case I was in the hospital or something. But it worked out? Well. I'm glad that it wasn't any bigger than it was because you know, postpartum is difficult. And fulfilling. And event after that was not not exactly fun. But it wasn't bad either. Working up to that point was difficult. I worked until 39 weeks like doing weddings and freelancing with other florists and there was one venue in particular that I was going into and big ol belly in front of me. And the chairs were like this close together. And I can't squeeze through them. It was respond. Did so it was always Daisy having fun. Doing it. Yeah. Trying to carry stuff and they don't want you to carry anything because you're nine months pregnant. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Ah, hey, good. But obviously, you've got your support. If your husband in the business site, you're able to sort of be be flexible with things like that. He's such a tremendous help but everything. Lately I've been trying to teach him designing so he's able to actually jump in if I need him helping processing all over flowers to get them prepped to design. helping deliver. Yeah, they help in every way. And like not just that but also like with the kids being able to watch them when I have to go out or having some other family or friends or babysitters helped. Hmm, yeah, that's definitely the supports a massive thing, isn't it? Having people around you? Yeah, makes it really tricky. If you don't have that doesn't that I've spoken to quite a few people on the show that are just like away from their family for whatever reason, and you sort of got to create create your family then I suppose for one of a better word to find the people. Yeah. So yeah, I'm really fortunate. I still live in the town that I was born in and my sister lives around the corner. My mum lives up the road and it's like, I've got him here. If I need him. It's really, really lucky. You need it, you really can't do it without the support system. That's for sure. In terms of then sort of the juggling that goes on, how do you sort of manage? Like your children are still quite young? How do you sort of? Is it a lot of help from others to make it happen? Or how do you sort of juggle everything? Question. So during the week, they're in daycare, I can't live without daycare, it's like, every day, like, Thank goodness for it. And then a lot of late nights. So we try to prioritize and maximize or our family time that we do have. So from five to eight, we have our family time we do dinner, we do baps some quality, like book times, stuff like that, and then we put them down for bed. And then it's usually like eight to 11 is crunch time for whatever we need to make happen. So whether that's designing for an event, or working on a computer, or meetings, stuff like that. Yeah, cuz that's thing you've actually got to meet with your clients, I suppose. Do you do a lot of that? It does that work in the day or you do meet people have an evening as well. Usually, it's in the evening, because most of the people work that we're working with. So they don't typically get out of work or have the time to that they're both home until seven, you know, somewhere in there. So I'll you do accommodate the late night meetings. I prefer when they happen during the day and the girls are at school. But yeah, I'll make it happen for them. Yeah. Oh, that's good. So I want to go back to when when you first had had your first daughter, did you sort of find did you have sort of an identity shift of how you saw yourself, and how that sort of changed when you became a mom, I had a really bad postpartum depression with my first. And I actually want to call it like a disassociation, because I was not attached to her. Going through my first, like, postpartum experience, I had a really traumatic delivery with her. And after I got really fit, like in the gym, like I prioritize that, and I really went through a time that I wasn't connected to her. So I have a different experience with her than I do with my second one. So it's like hard to say like in that sense, but throughout, I want to say like the first six months of our life together, I became more attached to her. And obviously, we have a really close relationship now. But as a mom, it was interesting, because I felt unattached, like, I still felt like myself. So I can't really say I felt like I had gone through this metamorphosis of like, shifts and personality change. But with my second and getting pregnant with my second, I really felt it. Hmm. So the way that you sort of, I guess, I had postnatal depression with both my kids. So I can definitely relate to what you're saying. And I guess that's the thing, it does make it hard to sort of talk about that identity. Because you feel so different anyway, like, because you're experiencing these mental health issues. And I guess, maybe going to your second daughter, how did you sort of when you had your second daughter, did you experience the same sort of postnatal depression or was everything different that time it was really different the second time, and I kind of associated more with starting my business like I felt the build. So it was a different kind of feeling like with my first I was still working as a full time mom and working full time. So I didn't feel like I had the same flexibility I didn't work my second I was able to snuggle up with her. And I was working on my computer and breastfeeding her at the same time. So I was still able to have like that skin to skin contact and everything up until she went to daycare when she was like five months old. Whereas with my first like immediately from the get go, she was in daycare with my mom with anybody that could watch her I was working full time. So I guess I didn't have the same kind of connecting experience with her. And also that affected our relationship and the way that my mental health was and everything else. Yeah, it's interesting, like, oh, yeah, no, thank you for sharing that because it's interesting. I've spoken to some mums who had postnatal depression first or second, or both, or like it's just there doesn't seem to be any consistency to it. Like when I had mine quite bad with my fist. So then the doctors were like, sort of put like, a red flag to me, but they had on all my files, you know, watch out for this one sort of thing, you know, which was good because when it did happen, you know, the ball moves really quickly and all the care that I needed came really quickly. But then yeah, I've spoken to some people who had it with their first didn't have on their second or didn't have with their first head it was like they doesn't seem to be any, you know, rhyme or reason like it. And I sort of had talked to my I talked myself into the fact like, there's seven years between my kids. And I thought, you know, I'm seven years older, I'm more mature, I've worked in childcare. Now I know, physically how to look after a child. And I kept thinking, I'm gonna be fine. This isn't gonna happen, you know, but then actually happened worse the second time and the first time. So it's like, so bizarre. It really is. And it's like, I went through so many mental changes, just evolving as a person and a business owner and everything that I associated with that, but maybe it could just be a different experience, just hormonal wise, like you're saying, like seven years older, and it's hard to say exactly why it happens the way that it does. Oh, my gosh, it is It is bizarre. Like it's just odd. And I wish it didn't happen to any of us. But it's just one of those weird things. And I feel like I've never quite been the same sense. I don't know. Now that I'm getting older, my hormones are changing more. I don't know. I mean, I still feel like me, but I just feel like I haven't quite gotten back to how it was before. I don't know. It's really weird, but never go back, either. Like, you've got so many new experiences now, like having been through childbirth twice, and the postpartum experience twice and everything in between. You'll never go back. Which I guess is a good thing. Yeah. It's a strange thing isn't that happens to us? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was named. One of the big topics I like to talk about with my moms is this concept of mom guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because I have spoken to moms who didn't even know what it was and had to google it. And I reckon that's awesome. That's how we should all be. But unfortunately, most of us, what's your sort of take on that whole topic? Oh, I feel guilty about everything that I do. I'm guilty. If I'm not being productive, I'm guilty. If I'm not spending enough time with them. I'm guilty. If I am not sleeping enough, I'm guilty. If I'm not eating right, I'm guilty of I'm prioritizing the wrong things. I'm just a big ball of guilt in every way, shape and form. So I'm curious to hear like what you have to say about it, and how you try to overcome it. Like with me, I just remind myself of what I'm working toward, and get myself grace as best as I can. Hmm. Yeah, I think that acceptance is a really big thing. And that's what I'm finding. It's interesting, the people that I've spoken to one in particular comes to mind that that did not even know what it was, which was brilliant. I think it was something to do with, she was basically in this little bubble, where she hadn't been around a lot of people with children, and wasn't sort of all over social media, looking at all things to do with children. And I think a lot of it comes what will in certainly in my experience of people I've spoken to, I'm not saying this is right for everybody, but the expectations that we feel from the outside world to behave a certain way or to do a certain thing or to not do a certain thing. And then that pressure that comes on us, is what sort of manifests neck yoke, because I don't know, there's just so many outside, outside forces with all this conflicting information, like I actually saw a really funny reel the other day about was like a new mom. And she was saying, I can't even think what they were. But it was things like don't hold your baby too much. But make sure you have a lot of skin to skin contact. But don't feed them too much. But make sure that they get enough food, like it was just this constant back and forth and the mums like what am I supposed to do? And I think you're right, that that sort of giving yourself grace and acceptance and in the moment feeling like I'm doing all that I can right now. And then try not to beat yourself up about later, which is so easier said than done, but it's just a horrible thing. And I wish it didn't exist. I wish no one had to go through it, too. I think you're right about the Instagram and like the social media aspect of it too. Because we have this new way to compare ourselves to like what other people look like they're doing as opposed to what we should be doing or comparing what they're what they have done. going on with their kids, because we don't know, we only see the highlight reel on Instagram. So it's like somebody else might look like they're in the gym all the time and spending time with their kids and having the best of everything. They probably have a nanny or somebody living in the house that's able to take care of the kids. Like you're not seeing it all. Yeah, that's so the best. You have to just give yourself grace, knowing what you're living through and your situation and the way that you're dealing with things when it's like you can do that season. We can just do that and not, and the judgment that I was talking to a mom the other day, about that mums and women were really, only if we're really good at what we're really bad at. I can't work out the way to say it, but we judge each other a lot. Like we're like the number one worst judges of each other. We need to know if we could just stop there. Yeah. But I think a lot of that also might come from guilt too, is that, you know, if you see someone doing something and you think, Oh, bloody hell, and then you think, wow, I should be doing that. You know, it's all that that internalized stuff. Again, you are you're judging them because you're not doing it or whatever it is. I'm really bad at that. I'll see something that looks like I should be doing it. And I get bad that they're doing and I'm not, or feeling like I should be further along in my journey. And it's like I just started so I can't get mad at it. Yeah, yeah. But I think you're right about this, this Instagram and the socials. It's like, people will only show you what they want you to say they're not going to show you all the bad stuff that's happened that day, or the how hard it was to get your kid to eat breakfast and then get them in the car to go wherever it like. Yes. But I feel like they're having. Yeah, yeah. It's, but yeah, I feel like people are getting better at sharing things. And I'm trying to change the people that I follow. So that the people that resonate with me more, not the people that I feel challenged by I suppose, if that makes sense. Yeah, surrounding yourself with positive, the positive stuff. I've been getting better at that, too. I've been restricting a lot of accounts that so I'm not like unfriending them or unfollowing them, but I'm not seeing their stuff purposefully. Cuz it either makes me mad or makes me feel guilty or something negative that I shouldn't be feeling. And it's just preventing me from working the way that I should be. Hmm, that's a really good point. And actually, that that point has come up, I reckon in the last two or three podcast chats that I've had that about just, you know, surrounding yourself with the people that make you feel good. Like, yeah, like, like, you know, in real life we do. So why not do it? You know, in a socialist, yeah, it's funny, because I find that even, I have to restrict, like, some friends and family because like, I'll see them and like, hold myself to like a new level of criticism, or guilts. Or, however I'm interpreting it, and then like, I can't be looking at this all the time, just because it makes me feel like I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing, or it's bad or something. Yeah, those things that trigger Yeah, it's like, you know, remove them. And that's true, even if it is family, you know, or friends, it's, we're still allowed to sort of set the boundaries and say, you know, I don't need to consume this, because it's going to affect me in a certain way. I think that's really powerful. Because I feel like in the past, we sort of have felt like, because their family, we've got to accept just everything that they do to us their behaviors. I feel like people are starting to sort of go, oh, actually, that's not okay. Even though, you know, you're my sister, or you're my mom or whatever. That That doesn't work. For me. That's a pretty powerful thing, isn't it? Very, very powerful. And to have the emotional intelligence to say, You know what, this is a little toxic or a little triggering for me. So I'm just going to remove myself from the situation and go from there. Yeah, that's really good. I think. Yeah. I don't know. Certainly the people I'm following. It's like, you know, that that emotional intelligence that and feeling like you have permission to do things? Like I don't know, you've always sort of feel like, is it okay for me to say to such and such that I don't want to do that, you know, that. That people pleasing sort of got to say yes to everything. I feel like yeah, people that I follow. I do follow a lot of psychologists to actually that's where this is going rather, you know, you are allowed to say that you don't have to please everybody. Thank you say that with like, yes to everything because I'm really bad people pleaser, at least I'm getting better at it. And for the holidays all the time, everybody would want us over their house. So We'd be trying to go to four or five different houses in the course of Christmas. And it's like that's not enjoyable like to just go from house to house. Yeah. So it's like, either had them on different days, or like, Come to us, because now we have kids, and then she's difficult to go from, you know, breakfast to late breakfast to brunch, to lunch to dinner, an early dinner, late dinners next. Bedtime is somewhere in the middle. Yeah, that's the thing. And you like the age of your girl. So probably still napping is like, how do you even, you know, fit that in? Yeah, but that's the thing too, I think. Yeah, for years are a family like, I'm lucky because everyone's in the town. And we all just gather at one point. But yeah, I've heard lots of stories of people of these, because we've got lots of little towns all around our big town, like little sort of out in the countryside. And people would be going from here to there to their to their similar to your story. Now, just think, God, that wouldn't be a very nice day, you know, it wouldn't be a very enjoyable day. And they'd say things like, you know, the kids get their presents, but then they can't play with them, because they've got to rush off to the next place. And you think it sort of takes all of that? What it's supposed to be about it takes all of that away. And you're right, why can't do it on another day, like, you know, make it a boxing? Or do you have Boxing Day over there to call it that? You know, yeah, we have like the day after Christmas is like a relaxing day, you're supposed to we, most times there's a cricket match on. It's like this tradition, the Boxing Day test match. So everyone like, relaxes in front of the telly and watches the cricket and has a drink because it's summer here. So it's all very, you know, laid back. So that's thing why not doing on the next day, like, you know, why does that have to be this pressure just for this one? Day? Yeah, that's like the thing, like, both my husband and I, like both of our parents were divorced. So it's like, we were having like, four just with them. And then it was the extended family and, you know, siblings wanting to get together in the morning to open gifts and then do dinner later. It's like, we're seeing you already, like agree don't need to do it twice. You know? Yeah. So if anyone's listening to this, if this is triggering for you, this might really to say actually, no, I want to do it this way. Or, you know, have a chat here from this time to that time, and you're welcome to stop by. Yeah, that's a great way of saying it. Yeah. And it's not, it's not like you're saying, we don't want to see you like it's not a bad. You know, it's like just to shuffle things to make it work. And I mean, other people probably feeling the same way too, you know? So by starting the conversation, you might be taking the pressure off someone else to go Oh, thank God, I've been wanting to say this, you know? Yes, 100%. That's really cool. I love it that conversation with. Growing up as a kid, did you, I mean, a lot of the moms I speak to were of the same sort of age roughly. I have had a couple of grandmas on. And that's been really interesting, too. But the way that the way that we were parented has changed a lot. I feel like I mean, culturally in Australia, certainly. And I'm sort of guessing similarly, in the US. What sort of role modeling did you have for being a mum, and the way that you've decided to parent your children? Interesting? Um, I? Oh, tough question. My mom worked all the time. So I can't really say that she was like, super involved. Like when she was really like, when we were young, I guess she was a stay at home mom for a while. But when my parents and I were in a rough relationship, so she worked pretty much around the clock. And we were with my grandparents most of the time. So essentially, my grandmother raised me. I guess, as far as like parenting styles, I have a lot of the same kind of styles that they do. Some things have evolved. Like, we don't force them to eat everything on their plate, like I was forced to, because I'm like, she's a toddler and she's not hungry. She'll eat when she's hungry. So she snaps and that's the way that she eats and the pediatrician have told us the same thing like to just let her you know, she's gonna go through phases. My mom was a big fast food mom, like I don't do that. Stuff like that. Yeah, I feel like we're sort of listening to our children a bit more like, like that example of, you know, the parents saying you have to eat this. And it's like, I remember as a kid, just shoveling the ends of my tea into my mouth and just feeling like seek just so full of food. It's like, we've sort of got to the point where we Going well, actually, I think children are capable of deciding when they're full, you know, obviously you want them to try and, you know, eat more than one bead of toast or whatever, you know, you want them to, to try encourage them. But, you know, I think this that sort of, for me, at least, I don't know if it did, or it didn't, but might have been something to do with the relationship that I now have with food, that I've got to eat everything, you know, we don't know what Yes, what little seeds are being planted in little people's brains when we're doing these behaviors, and we're putting our, our judgment now behaviors onto them. 100% I'm on a similar note, like, trying to, I've learned that my mom wasn't exactly like a well rounded eater, she ate a lot of SP foods, a lot of the same things. So I'm finding like, as a mom, myself, that my kids eat everything that I eat. So if I'm showing them that I'm eating broccoli, and like home cooked meals, they're gonna want to eat them, too. So if I'm not giving them those options, they're not going to eat them. And they're not encouraged to because if I'm drinking soda, my daughter wants to drink soda. If I'm eating a nice polite with turkey bacon, she's gonna want to eat that too. So it's just a matter of introducing them to the right things and setting a good example. Hmm. And that's, that's really good point. Because that's thing if they don't see things they're not, they're not even, you know, gonna, they're not gonna choose one day go, Oh, I'm just gonna eat some broccoli just for no reason. You know, it's, it's got to be a part of. Yeah, exactly. And you were talking earlier about, like, you know, eating well, and fitness. Is that something that you're you guys are conscious of. So that's really great that you're sort of encouraging that right from, you know, the beginning of their lives. Yeah, really trying. With the business and everything. It's honestly taken a bit of a back burn. But we've been recommitting ourselves. And it's really important to show them that this is a priority for us if it is for them to. Absolutely, yeah, that's so that's so important. And I think like, exercise just being a part of life, like you can just go for a walk anytime. And that's, you know, that it's not some big deal that can I just, it's just a normal part of life, that it just is what you do, you know, maybe not every day, depending how your day is going. But it's just there all the time. That makes sense. Yeah, that you don't have to make it a special. Like, you don't have to get up and go to the gym at 530 Every morning, like you could squeeze it in with a bike ride or make it fun, and a family activity or different ways to go. Do you feel like it's important to you, and I'm gonna say this in air quotes again, to be more than just a mum, because we're never just a mum, that Yeah, is that that's important to you to maintain who you are outside of your mothering role. Very important. Um, I never want to be just anybody. I want to be myself. And I, you know that I'm really ambitious. So I've got a lot of goals. So I can't imagine like just being a mom, I have to be me and fulfilling and successful. And I just have a lot of these deep rooted things that I need to fulfill myself. Where do you think that drive comes from? Is that was there anyone in your life that sort of role model that or is that just, that's just you. It's just me, it's many of you ask, like my mom or my grandma, they'll tell you that I have this number one syndrome that I have to be number one in everything. And it's funny because as a kid, it was true, I needed to be first in line, I needed to be the top of the attendance roster, I needed to be like, number one on the honor roll like all of those things. And I guess it still rings true, but in different ways like it's fueling to want to be and accomplish all of these things. So it's like I have a bucket list of stuff that I want to do before I die and set a good example for my kids and be this person. Hmm. Yeah. Can you share some of the other things that are on your bucket list? If that's appropriate? I haven't asked you this before. You Yeah, sure. Well, writing a book is obviously on the top of the list. I have places that I want to travel. I want to have some speaking opportunities, like I want to get on a TEDx stage or something fun like that, um, surround myself but some people that I consider like, I don't know if you have like bucket list people that you want to like have conversations with Yeah, couple things. Yeah, people that I keep annoying with emails to come on my podcast. And I never hear back from you, we'll keep trying. And like, that's the thing like this has got this experience, doing this sort of stuff has got me really good at just being rejected and not worrying about any more like to just go, no, oh, that's fine. Who's next on my list? You know, and not getting hung up about stuff. It's been a really good teaching experience for me to learn this stuff, you know? Well, it's like it boils down to, it's always going to be no, if you don't ask, yes, yes. Or no, like somebody might have an opening in the calendar, or they might actually be available that weekend. They, you know, whatever the situation is, like, the reason that they're saying no, probably has nothing to do with you. You know, it's probably that they have their kids baseball game that they actually are able to attend this weekend. So they want to go. And that's, I feel like that if you don't ask you don't know. And that, yeah, I've asked some awesome people that have come on, and I thought they would never come on, but it's like, Thank God ask because, you know, just, yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Like? And that's the thing, too, like, I think we just we never know what's going on in other people's lives, like in any in anything, you know, and I think we sometimes can be really quick to judge a person's reaction and put it back onto ourselves. Where it's probably not about us at all, like you said, it's, it's something that in their lives or whatever. Yeah, like, as we know, like all of our lives, we're bound to rob ourselves. Like, I like to think of like Jenna Kutcher, a lot. I always hear that she's just says no to everything. And it's like, it has nothing to do with anybody else. It's just that she has like three priorities. And those are the priorities. So if it's not one of those three things, it's going to be no. And I feel that way about like, when I'm even asked to, let's say, like, over a friend's house or something. If it's, if I'm not feeling up to if my kids are not feeling good, like whatever it is, it's like it's gonna be no, if it doesn't feel any of those things. Hmm, yeah. And there's nothing wrong with saying that like, again, this boundary setting, looking after ourselves, not just saying yes, because we feel we feel bad if we say no. Yeah, well, then you feel guilty or resentful, or saying yes, if you didn't say no. And that's the worst is like saying yes. And not meaning it or wishing that you said no, or being mad that somebody isn't giving you something? Because you said yes. Because you said yes. You know, exactly. Yeah. It's like watching there, isn't there? Yeah, I have a good example to go along with that. One of my girlfriends is getting married. And I told her that I would do her wedding flowers. And I wished that I didn't say, and I'm feeling resentful now. Because it's like, I would rather not commit the time and my own finances to do it. And it's like a really generous gift. And I was like, Is this really like, Why did I say yes, and I'm going back and forth with it. And it's like, I need to just commit myself and I am going to commit myself because I agreed to it. But that's like a really good example of something that you should think, before you say yes. And try not to be resentful of the fact that you did. Because that's the thing isn't like, things can seem really good at the time. And then when you think about it, and you go, oh, like I've done that with singing gigs. And I've said yes to things because I thought, oh, yeah, that'll be fun. And then I thought, ah, but I have to rehearse and I have to learn these songs. And I'm, like, I'm, in my mind. I'm thinking of the gig. I'm thinking, Oh, that'd be awesome. But then I step back and go, Ah, crap, all this stuff that needs to happen to do that. And I think, ah, like, it's not just the thing. Yeah, everything else to go with it. So it's like, my friend's wedding is like Thanksgiving weekend, it's, so it's gonna be a pain in the neck to get flowers. And for her, it's gonna be I have another wedding the next day. So it's like, I'm gonna be adding more work to my load. And it's like, all these other things that make it a lot more difficult than just doing the thing. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, I've gotten I think, I don't know if this is a bad thing to say. But the COVID Everything that happened with COVID actually gave me a time to think about like saying no more like I really enjoyed not rushing out because everything got canceled, all the gigs got canceled, which to start with was quite bad. And then I sort of went actually I'm enjoying not going out all the time now and I'm glad the pressures off because now I don't have to do this. And I know that obviously I'm not dismissing COVID at all like it's very bad a lot of people have have suffered because of it and economies and everything. But one good thing came out of it is it made me start saying no to things because I remembered how good it felt not doing things. Yes, I agree with that. And I agree wholeheartedly with that conversation. cuz, yes, COVID was awful for many people. But there were so many good things that also came out of it like my business, like, as a floral designer took off because of COVID. Because all of the other floors were booked. And there were so many delays so that I was able to actually do 50 Weddings last year and was my first year of business. So it's like, that shouldn't have been possible. But it was because of COVID. And, like you said, like enjoying the actual time, but you had to yourself because of it, we had that same kind of situation, like in 2020, that we were able to just enjoy ourselves and our little family. I actually enjoyed being not having visitors in the hospital when I gave birth, because I had two COVID babies. So it was like I enjoyed being able to actually just be the three of us and not worry about everyone in their brother coming in while I'm breastfeeding and stuff like that. Yeah, I think there was a good stuff. Yeah, that's a really good point, isn't it? Because I think that can that's another whole issue about people not having boundaries, when people have babies that it's like, you just assume, Oh, you've had a baby, great, we'll go see them. And, you know, a lot of people are now saying, we'll let you know, you know, even waiting till they get home and even you know, settling in waiting till breastfeeding is established or, you know, any challenges. I've got an even, like, over here, not so much now. But a few years ago, there was a big thing with whooping cough. So people were saying until you're vaccinated, we don't want you to come to see the baby. So yeah, and I think people just getting more respectful of other people's, you know, wishes, just because it's always been done a certain way doesn't mean that that's, you know, how we should keep doing things. Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. Having the boundaries, and not holding it to like, the expectation that that's how things have to go, you can make it, you can make those decisions and say that this is the new way of doing things. And then actually like it better having the babies like during COVID and saying no, or at least like in the postpartum experience. I can't imagine, like, this is something that I had establishes boundaries, like if you want to come over, you have to bring dinner. Love that, that people are like, can I come over visit? Like, you know, what are you bringing for dinner? Like, are you gonna come over and do some laundry for me? Because I don't want to entertain you. Yes, that is awesome. Like, literally, what are you bringing with you? What are you going to do while you're here, you're just going to sit on your ass and hold my baby while I sit there and think of all these things I've got to do. Or I could be asleep right now. You know. I love that. So we have a digital production company that we just started. And it came to be because of all of the stuff that I've been doing with the YouTube and the podcast and all the social media management and all of that stuff because I had to put together a team to do it. I'm sure you have one too, with editing and whatnot. So I was like, Oh, my goodness, it's a game changer. I've got time, right, you know, it's this is, yeah, I've got time. I can do it. I did not time. So I was like I cannot be sitting here on my computer doing all this. So I hired a team to help me do it. And I realized I'm like, this is a need that I can fill and I need to at least monetize what I'm doing. Because at this point, I was just shelling money out trying to get everything edited and monitor my podcasts and just everything. Social media service, like let me share my team with people to see well that's where that came to be. Yep. So primarily, we help people with podcast editing and production, YouTube Editing and the SEO that goes with it, like the keywords and the titles and the thumbnails and the backlinks and all those fun things that I didn't even know was a thing until I started doing it. Yeah. And social media management. Yeah, right. So where can people find find you online with that if people want a Fievel interested in that. So it's mama media, ma ma M Ed ia.org. And that's where you could find us for those services. was cool. I'll put a link to that in the show notes if anyone wants to check that out. Yeah, it's interesting, like when you say, like, I do it myself because I can and because I really, I had all the equipment here from my singing, so I didn't have to purchase anything and got my mixer, I've got my mic and everything, and I can do all my editing myself. And I actually really love doing it. Like, that's part one of the parts that I actually I really look forward to doing because I love fiddling around doing things, you know, that's just my thing. But there'd be a lot of people that don't love that and don't have the time and don't have the equipment to do it. So I think that's a really good service and good on you for for like, being able to like you've got that team you can share with other people. It's already there. And you can go right, I mean, you can do this for other people. Yeah. Yeah. And like I said, like, it came, like I was just showing money out the door. And I'm like, I can't keep doing this. Like I need to be able to bring something in here. Somehow. I was like, How can I monetize this. And I was like that, like, you've got a perfect little formula right here, like just put it out there. And I love the name T that's a really cool name. Thank you. Just like to share with everybody that listens, that you can do whatever you want in this life, and you don't have to be defined because you're a mom or by that title, you can seriously have your cake and eat it too. And what I mean by that is you can create the businesses that you want, you can create the financial freedom, that financial security that you want, you can do the hobbies that bring you joy, you can create anything that you want in this life. So don't let being a mom define you by that. I grew up with so many people that did and they are not happy, like at the end of the day. And it just is a shame because they're meant for more than that. Hmm, yeah, that's a really, really well said, Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? We just because we have a child doesn't mean that our whole rest of our life has to stop existing. Yeah, like, there's a trend going around right now. That's mom before she was mom. And it's like, all the photos of her having fun. And then like, as a mom, it's just she's holding the kids and putting them down for bed. And it's like, you can do all those fun things with them. Like, it doesn't have to be an end to your life. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It doesn't stop. And I think that's the thing like our, my parents generation, that there was very much, it was very much of us in them. Like, obviously, we're crazy family. But, you know, parents would do so much stuff without the kids. Whereas now I feel like we're involving our kids in so much more other parts of our lives that I wasn't involved in with my parents. So that's really good change, I think. Yeah, I think it's really positive and important and impactful for them to to be part of it. You know, if I were watching my mom, like, do the things that she wanted to do, I think you'd one like have like a newfound respect for them, because you're seeing them doing what they love and happy and joyful. And it's also like setting an example for you that you can do it too, huh? Absolutely. Yeah. It's great. That's a lovely note to end on. Thank you. It's been such a joy chatting with you. Thank you so much for giving me your time today. It's not time over there, isn't it? What time is it? There? They go. It's quarter past 10 In the morning, over here. So it's really a lovely start to my day. Thank you and all the best with everything. I'm sure you're gonna keep keep ticking things off that bucket list and keep achieving things because you Yeah, very motivated, very driven. And it's it's lovely to chat with you. Thank you, Alison. It's been so fun. I hope that everybody enjoyed our chat too. If anybody wants to come over and listen to more than we've got going on come to the Mickey money moves show. I'd love to have Allison on. And you can find me on Instagram at list dot Morton. Awesome. And yes, I'll put all the links so everyone can just click away and find you and that would be awesome. Thank you again. It's been great. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor and she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes Your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage dotnet forward slash podcast

Sarah Broekensha Australian actor and producer S1 Ep18 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Sarah Brokensha is an actor and producer from Eight Mile Creek, South Australia, and a mother of 2 boys. Acting since the age of 23, Sarah has performed numerous times with Patch Theatre Company , including an off-Broadway season in New York City. She performed in Mutzenball which was awarded the 2008 Green Room Theatre Award for Best Cabaret Ensemble, Other shows include Ruby Bruise , Emily Loves to Bounce , Me and My Shadow, Yo Diddle Diddle and The Girl Who Cried Wolf. Her film and television credits include Wanted Season 3 , Wolf Creek 2 and Rabbit (feature film). Sarah created her own production company, Control Party Theatre , and received rave reviews for her one woman show "The World is Looking for You" in August 2021. In addition to all this she runs a farm with her husband Liam, which incorporates a free range egg farm The Splendid Egg We discuss how covid has levelled the playing field in the theatre industry, how important support for expectant and new mums is in the industry in keeping your sense of identity, and building resilience in her children, and herself. Connect with Sarah here More info about The World is Looking For You Connect with the podcast here Audio of the promo video for The World is Looking for You that appears in the intro, is used with permission Music used with permission in this episode is from Alison Newman and Alemjo Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... oday on the podcast, I would like to welcome Sarah Brokenshire. Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. It's great. So you are an actor, which is exciting. I haven't had an actor on my show yet. So, welcome. Thank you. I feel honored to be the first. Yeah. So tell us about yourself how you got into being an actor and share anything else that you'd like to around that? Yeah, okay. Well, I think I was I loved acting or the drama at school, high school, I guess. And then I didn't quite have the confidence, I don't think to audition for drama schools at that stage when I was 17. So I kind of put that aside and I went traveling, went skiing, I was kind of snow ski instructor actually, and then did like a business degree and did all sorts of other things. But really, ultimately, it got to a point where all I was thinking about was having a go having a crack at acting and, and so finally, when I was, it was it was when I was about 2024 2423 24, I finally plucked up the courage and started auditioning for drama school. So then I went to drama school. In had the best three years, I've had the best time and then as a mature age students, so everyone else was kind of 1718 and I was very old, 24 year old. I felt very old looking back now. That um, and then yeah, and then I left drama school. I finished there in 2004 and just been kind of slowly chipping away doing just getting gigs where I can and not experiencer independent theater and working with a lot of the professional theatre companies in Adelaide mainly spent a couple of years in Melbourne and then made the odd decision to move regionally. Which was really weird way has been the best thing. All my career. It's a very interesting journey for me, but to be leaving early. Yeah, I was gonna ask you that. And you've brought it up. So I'll ask you now have you said it's really good for your career of being in my Gambia which is 500 kilometers away from Adelaide 500. Club. Know, but how, how is that so good? I think initially, it was actually was quite hard. But it made me become a bit more resourceful made me think about what I kind of work I wanted to make I wanted to be a part of. And when things were quite quiet, I kind of went alright, well, maybe. How can I make the work come to me? How can I get I'd made some really good I spent a good 10 years in Adelaide making a really great network of creatives and friends that were doing amazing things. And then I looked for avenues where I couldn't bring them to me or yeah, how can I open up an opportunity that maybe I'm not, you know, outside of the box, and that's kind of where that started. And and I mean, it's not it doesn't all happen really quickly. That's happened but I've been here for 11 years. And now I'm starting to get quite busy but it's taken, you know, taken it's a slow burn definitely. That's interesting, too. I guess that would also be It's really beneficial for us as audiences in regional areas to be able to maybe get shows that we wouldn't get here because the main actor is from here. Would that be fair to say? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And one or the other. And also, when I got invited kind of created down to me, I've also tried to have opportunities where I get them out into the community. So we, and it's also been a really good way for me to an inroad into my community in a way as well, it's been a really good way for me to kind of understand where I live and get to know the people that surround me. But, yeah, definitely, like, I think the more Yeah, I think more professional artists seem to be kind of leaving the cities. And I think that definitely draws those kind of different shows and works and performances, whatever, out of the city. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I was gonna ask you to share with us some of the shows that you've been in, I know that I had a ticket to come and see you in the world is looking for you. And then my son broke his arm that night, so I couldn't. Stressful, I've actually very disappointed because I've had wonderful, wonderful feedback about that show. So I don't know how we're ever gonna get to see Do they ever? Do they record them? Like, yeah, it often doesn't translate quite as well. But we did get a really beautiful, archival recording in Adelaide, actually, an amazing filmmaker kind of came in and took a few different, got a few different cameras in there. But I think hopefully, we'll get to do it again, down here, I only got to do it three times and to very small audiences, which was intentional, to keep it very intimate. But I think I would like it just was over so quickly, in such a, I guess this work was very personal, and had a lot of my personal story in it. And then to be able to do it to my local community was was so humbling and profound for me, that I just selfishly want to have that experience again. It was just, it was really very grateful to have had that moment in time. Yeah. No, I want you to do it again. So I can say it. Yeah. So front row ticket. Yeah, absolutely. So you said that you'd had some of your own personal story. So how did that come about? Were you involved in actually like brushing it? Or how how did that come about? Um, I went long story is that when I first moved back here, I was definitely a bit of a loss of what to do and thought I had isolated myself from my creative community I kind of initially I thought I possibly made a mistake in terms of career not not in terms of family because I'd moved back to be closer to family to for limb, my husband and I would start a family together. But I did feel quite isolated from Adelaide and in Melbourne and thought maybe I'd made a mistake, but in that regard, but then I just kept getting these little invitations from the regional funding body country out to say and they kind of one of them kind of heard that I had moved from Adelaide to or from and to Matt Gandy. And so he just kept sending me these little invitations to meet up with someone just to talk about this or come to Adelaide for the fringe and meet some other regional artists and so slowly, I kind of, and then I kind of got the courage, I guess, which is sounds a bit strange, but the courage to have an idea that in my mind that I kind of put out there usually I just perform other people's ideas or, and so I applied for a grant to develop a show with a director, friend of mine, Daisy Brown, she's this incredible director that we've worked together on a few shows in Adelaide. And so we applied for funding to commission, an amazing writer Finnegan Cucamonga to come and work with us. So I didn't write the show. Thank goodness. I am. So this is part of that, that process of who are the people that I'd like to sit in a room with and work with. And it was Daisy and Finn, and, and Mario, who Daisy, Mario, and I have a company to get a fairly company together. And we all want to work with those people. And I had just had an idea, which was a, an article that I'd found in a, based on an article I'd found on Facebook essentially used before. And so I got the got the funding. And I think you've got to come down here to Adelaide, Gambia, and we sat in a room for a week, and talking and talking talk. And then we did that, again, we probably had a four week rehearsal process over a year. And then we just started from there. And we it was a four year process. play that. Yeah. It was a big one. And it was meant to happen in last year, but it got postponed because COVID But there was almost a blessing. I think that yeah, and so and, and why I wasn't really sure what it was going to be none of us were when we started talking. And then it's just kind of evolved over evolved over four years and became this one woman show which wasn't my intention, either, because that's terrifying. It ended up being Yeah, this this. Yeah, this is theta work that we're very proud of. Oh, yeah. That's, that's no, I really have to say it was on stage with the composer he, he played live. And then we had this amazing vocalist as well. So she was part of the EU, I think to what maybe I can like start a petition to get it back. So other things that you've done? I know, with my connection with childcare, you've done some work with the patch theatre group, they do shows for children. Yeah, tell us the other things that you've done over? Yeah. Yeah, I've done a lot of work with patch theatre, and I actually do a lot of work with them over my presidency. Yeah, so that kind of saved me a little bit, in many ways. Like, it kept me kind of, in the, in the, with my finger, it felt like my finger was still on a pulse of some description. Because I'm, you know, I mean, I'm sure you understand as well, when you when you have start having kids. It's just, it's hard to kind of, you know, still figure out who you are amongst the midst of motherhood and beautiful mess in some in some respects, I guess. But you do. It's hard to kind of, you know, there's a life that was and then you as another kind of just trying to figure it out. And somehow I got to kind of keep a little bit of my artistic identity alive at at that stage, which I think was very crucial to my feeling. Like, I could still do it. I was still an artist still. Yeah. And so I kept my head above water a little bit. So patch I did, I got a pet like 10, or maybe even more than 10 years ago, now, I was lucky enough to start working on two different pet shows. They'll call them. Emily loves to bounce, and me and my shadow, which is two beautiful, beautiful shows that just happened to have these amazing tours and I got to tour with them every you know, once or twice a year. You know, back when we could go overseas and got to go to you know, travel to New York and perform in New York with a little two year old in tow and Oh, yeah. And also while I was pregnant, they kind of would shift rehearsals so that, you know, I could still do rehearsals before my due date and because you're gonna have some times when, when you're acting you feel when you get job. You feel like what I did, I felt like when I found out I was pregnant. I felt like if I told them, you know, that might be the end of that gig, no other jobs in sight. And yeah, so there's all this. Yeah, but something you know, both times when I was pregnant I had patched up and they kind of would go out. No worries, let's just move this here and there. So you can still be, we still want you to be part of the soul and how they will kind of crash into my ceiling. valued, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it's a bit more than just jobs. I guess. Now that looking back on that. acting jobs hilarious. And then, yeah, so. And then I've just done a few little tiny TV roles and things like that, where, where I've been able to, and they've been amazing, and, and just basically, I'll take any job I can get. Like, I'll do whatever, I'll do anything. Identity? Yeah, so you mentioned there, how crucial and really valuable that wasn't being able to keep doing what you love doing, rather than having to stop while you're pregnant? What about when, when you first had your first child? Did you have a break at all, then? Or were you able to just sort of keep, keep going? I guess, I kept going by the day, the shows are fairly, you know, sporadic. So there was long periods of time where there wasn't much happening, or there were periods of time where I wasn't sure if there was anything in the pipeline, you know, and then something would come up, and it'd be okay. And we'd kind of boy, me, I guess for a bit and then. So it's that old kind of, you know, it's never, you never know, really what's happening and what's coming up next. And, you know, so that job insecurity that comes with being an actor or creative, probably. But, um, so it was definitely a struggle. And then I guess, you know, for me, I have to, usually for the most part, but go to Adelaide, usually to work. So there's that added kind of stress of added stress of having to figure out what to do. Whether to, yeah, how to make that work. Because I will often desperately feel like I wanted to do that job. You know, because you hardly know when you're going to get the next opportunity or, or, yeah, but also trying to look after little tiny babies or, like, some of the patch touring I did, I did these big tourism. So Liam would come with me for a few weeks, and then taking with his mum. And so my mother in law would come and tour with me for a couple of weeks, and then my mom and so it always involved having a very good support network around me. And that was kind of the part of the reason for coming home as well was because I knew that there would be that support network is when my mum lives here. My sister and her. Her husband, they moved back here about six months before I did and we're very close. So yeah, having having that support has been crucial. Absolutely. I wouldn't have been Yeah. Tell me about your children is nearly 10 Finnegan and Fergus, he is seven, seven coming up seven and a half, two and a half years apart. Of course I am very fond of them. And I think they're very amazing. And I printed in funny and, and yeah, I've luckily just been able to either bring them along on tour or have them in rehearsal rooms when required or, you know, and they, they've loved kind of growing up in that, that little world. And I'm working on a children's show just finished a little bit of a rehearsal now and we're doing a bit more rehearsal in December and we need a test audience. That six kids so they're going to come in and be our test audience. I feel very smug about that. Cool huh. So they work just as well. Do they like to have a bit of a go? Yeah, I don't know. I think it seems like to me oldest might have a guy but yeah, I don't know. This guy doesn't know, folks too keen to get up in front of people. But I think maybe maybe seen he's got a bit more of that. Or not that a lot of actors are kind of overt an extrovert. Actually, most of us aren't think but yes. Jimmy's got a bit of a flair, I think. Have you come across any other mums doing sort of similar thing to you that are able to keep working with the little ones or while they're pregnant? Um, yeah, I think it's becoming more and more. I don't know, like, commonplace. I think that your work around pregnancies and small children and it's kind of crucial now I think for theatre companies to be inclusive of mothers of tiny babies. So make those rehearsal rooms comfortable and safe for new mothers and things that I think it's becoming just normal now. Which is great. I don't know. I don't know. I know a lot of friends in Adelaide that have babies that working in Adelaide. I don't know, so many regional artists, personally that don't have to leave home for you know, long stretches, which I've done a little bit of that which has been very challenging. Like I really appreciated the work and the experiences, but yeah, very, very challenging. For me and for Lee and my husband, as well. And. You also run a chicken not a chicken farm. It's an egg egg farm. Yeah. Well, I guess it's a we're trying to make it a regenerative farm basically, and so that the chickens are part of that ethos or that philosophy. So they we've only got a couple of caravans, I guess, they called but then sheds, mobile sheds, and we pull it around the paddocks. And chickens just cruise around wherever they want. And kind of basically fertilizing and sanitizing the soil in hopes that we don't have to spray and do all those kinds of things. And we have those beautiful Miranda dog Guardian dogs that look after them out in the paddock. So, you know, there's no fences or anything that I wander around and do it like that. Um, so yeah, that's an interesting been an amazing kind of little add on to the farm. So my, my family, I grew up on this farm that I'm living on now. And my husband is now running it, which is not something that we both really thought we'd be doing, like 15 years ago. We love it. And yeah, so the chickens, we've got this brand called the splendid age, and we sell these beautiful, I think it'd be passion free range eggs. And yeah, just as part of a byproduct of trying to create more diversity on the farm. So traditional farmers will like run other we run we run low prime land, we sell walls well across from that and then we have just some cattle from other neighboring kind of properties. So we look after cattle for other farms and you know trying to got a bit of a rotation of a few different animals through their property. Yeah. And I have read online that they the the chickens have so much space it's even beyond like the traditional what they classes it's like even more yeah just get back in. There's no other offenses to keep they're like Kelvin shooting but they can just walk through the under those or they can go wherever they like essentially, right at the beginning we have these kind of movable fences so we can teach them where to lay and where to sleep and things like that. But you in Yeah, and I can just walk anywhere they're like, I mean, obviously, they walk too far and then come back then it's it's on them if they caught my socks. Yeah, man, some of them just won't walk for case but um, yeah, no, no, no, we'll just kind of wander back to the caravans to roost at night. Yeah, I can go wherever you're like, really? Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, it's lovely. So you came to be easy, really? Like with a bit of a weird mix? Ah, okay. People like oh, look, that's the egg lady. I won't say. I won't say you're the egg lady. Egg lady. But it is a weird combination of kind of acting. And I quite like wearing a few different hats as long as I can have something creative in the pipeline, or yeah, just be able to kind of continue auditioning and things like that. Then I I really enjoy having such different hats. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Have gone in COVID. Obviously, you've been able to put on you your big show. But like, you talked about auditioning in that? Or have you had to do lots of stuff online? Or has it sort of worked? Yeah, in a way, it's kind of leveled the playing field a little bit for people that don't live in the city. Because I mean, it was kind of hanging that way in the industry was starting to do a lot more self taping, for auditions and things like that. So it was kind of heading in that direction anyway, when rather than walking into a impersonal audition, you'd send in a tape and then go through all the tapes, and then pick the field that they want, and then get those people to come in. And now that's kind of the norm. And obviously, preferred method of auditioning is actually just sending you the tape. And because it's harder to get, you can't fly from Melbourne to Sydney, just, you know, for the day to do an audition. So it's, yeah, it kind of leveled the playing field a bit. And I kind of that isolation weirdly, for me, was minimized, I guess, or Yeah, so I felt more connected. People. I mean, and you know, it would go crazy. Like, people were zooming like crazy in the beginning, but I started connecting with all sorts of people. And creatives that were doing interesting things through zoom, and because everyone was like, well, right, well, how can we still connect with that? Yeah, that Zoom each other or? Yeah, can you send in a tape for this? And it's for me, it kind of was good in many ways. Cuz you probably you probably wonder I've got the chance to meet these people have opportunities if if it wasn't there, that like you said, it's got to tell its upside. Yeah, it definitely has its upside because I have been doing tapes for a little while. Now. I also feel quite comfortable doing that, but almost prefer going into a live or digital real audition because I get all not great. auditioning. I get nervous and you know, when you start talking in your head, like just stop talking. And you just keep going or go back. So I've had to like I have so much more control over a self tape audition, so I don't know concept of mum guilt. What how do you feel about that? Yeah, I've been thinking about that a bit. Navigating motherhood is, is tricky, that I definitely felt a lot of guilt I guess, but about starting going back to work about leaving the kids about leaving my family to go and do a theater job or, and whether it was worth it. And I think, mum got it, I feel like it implies that you've done something wrong, do like numb guilt. And I don't think that's correct. So I wonder if are thinking about it today, because I often feel guilt about not doing this because I'm doing this so you know, I'm doing an acting job. So I can't put as much energy into the farm and so it puts more pressure on them or so I'm feeling guilty all over the place. And, and that's the kind of I feel like I'm being that conditioning thing. So it's not just mom guilt, I don't think I just always felt a bit kind of like I should be in all places all the time. But I think I think I when you when I was going away a lot, I struggled with feeling guilty, feeling, I guess, stressed and stretched and, and then and just not being around. And Liam is just amazing. And being so supportive, he would say well, you know, is that I think he kind of stress to me that it's important that the boys see that you're doing what you love, I guess. And that maybe it's just about finding the right compromises. So your husband, Liam, he must be very supportive, to be encouraging you to keep keep doing what you love doing. And all my whole family right from the beginning. And I think that lame would always say look, because leading up to going away for a show, or just a couple of weeks before I just feel wretched and I feel sad, and I'd feel super guilty about leaving and that he would just remind me that it's a beautiful time for him and the boys to to have a different kind of relationship. Often leaves mum would come over with her partner while I was away to help. And then so then she'd have this different relationship with Liam and the boys than she would if I was here, which I thought was really a lovely thing to say and a lovely thing for me to be reminded of that. She Yeah, she gets to have this different relationship with with the boys while while I'm away. And that she loves that time. She because she doesn't get to see them often. She was encountering, like regional Victoria eight hours away. So and then they get to see me during my love, I guess, or they get to see me going to do that. I mean, they don't necessarily see the shows each time but they get to understand that I'm making a sacrifice to do the things that I love or making. And, and that yeah, it's just about trying to find the right kind of compromise because I think you need your own thing as a as a human and as a as a mum as a parent, but definitely as a mom you need your own whatever that is like even if it doesn't have to be work but and so to have your own thing you do need to compromise and sacrifice a little bit. That kind of relationship with your children or your husband and it's about finding the right compromise or the right balance I guess of sure feeling a bit guilty but also feeling that you Are you doing the right thing for you? I guess? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think that's an that's it's always a struggle, it's never the same, it's time, it's always a different lead up to me leaving, it only happens a couple of times a year. If I have a good deal, it's, it's a couple of times a year. And the lead up is different every year as the kids get older to. Like, Finn, especially he really misses. Or he gets away, he kind of worked himself off as a lead up to me going away, but then he's finally gone. But so that anxiety, those anxieties are a bit different now for the boys leading up to because they can communicate how they're feeling. And they don't want me to go and this and that, and the other. But I guess that opens up opportunities to talk about why I'm doing what I'm doing. And that it is, although it is hard, it means I get to kind of do the thing that I love, but they also get to hang out with Liam in a different way. That's a really great way of looking at it too. It's stringer strengthening other relationships in your family unit, as well. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and lame. Duck put obviously, a lot of pressure on him, but and he really appreciates that kind of bond he gets with the kids that different when I'm around. This is the kind of mommy's boys a bit at the moment. And so on kind of the, you know, but when I'm out of the picture for a bit, he becomes the kind of parent I guess. Yeah, so how do you step into those different roles? And I hope it's building resilience as well, a little bit maybe what's building resilience for me? I miss them so much. And, and it's, it's tapping away, because I'm also constantly going, is this worth it? Am I doing the right thing? It's only a theater show? Should I be home? Like all of that still going on? Even if I am having an amazing kind of time, you know, being in the rehearsal room, or something like that? And then do you tell yourself that it is worth it? Like, do you do it yourself? Then? Say yes, yeah. Yes, exactly. And that I am reminded, and my mom actually said, the last time because Oh, my God, I'm feeling really anxious about not being around. And it's just like, well, you know, if you just have to, you know, kind of weigh up. And if it's too much, like, if it's, if that's outweighing if you're, if you're miserable, and doing in a way during the show, then there's no point to doing that. So, but if you're, if you're, if you're happy, then and, yeah, then it's kind of it's worth it. I'm not like damaging my children. I just think it's wonderful though, for for boys, in particular, to say that a mother's a mother can be any, anything that they want to be to, like, the mother is the traditional role that they might sit might have seen, maybe the grandparents in a different way. But then mothers of today can can do whatever they want. And I think that's awesome for boys to say that that, you know, as they grow up their expectation of what, you know, their relationships might look like is, you know, endless. I suppose its boundless. It hasn't got these constraints that the previous generations would have had, I guess. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I guess when when I'm at home, I do we do tend to kind of fall into Liam's kind of out doing the labor on the farm, although I do come out and help and, and I tend to be them on that kind of nurturing and doing like book work and, and taking the score and doing those kind of almost, you know, those stereotypes, the stereotypical kind of role that we've kind of fall into which I don't sometimes I feel funny about that. I yeah, I agree with you that I think it's great for them to kind of see me Yeah. forging a bit of a path that's a bit tricky, as well, I guess. Yeah, it's just it's tricky and hard and as a performer, I think and an actor it's definitely a build resilience. Yeah. I get out pretty quickly, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Like, you would have to have pretty thick skin I suppose to, you've always putting yourself up for stuff. And you're at the whim of someone else to tell you whether you're good enough because or not, whether you're right for the role or not, but I don't think there'll be many people. Exactly, yeah, it's definitely pretty tricky. And I think that's part of the reason for starting to be a bit more rigorous in creating my own work is so that you can have some kind of control over what you're doing. And, and so you can still get your voice out there and your stories out there. And, and, and, you know, it's hard, like, I'm sure you probably feel the same when you like, write a song or or write an album, and then you've kind of put put your heart and soul into it. And then you just have to go, Matt, ego, what do you think? Why do you not I mean, like, Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's very, you're so very, very vulnerable situation to put yourself in and, and, yeah, sometimes when standing out, outside, just recently are standing out the front of the foyer after doing the show. And I'm just like, God, this is, I feel like I basically just kind of, you know, cut over my chest poured out my heart. And I just smoked it down in front of everyone for you to skate. You know, I was a bit late for a bit but like, God, it is. Yeah, it's thank God, people do it now. Like when you hear a piece of music that just like rips your heart out, or you see like, for me watching a theater show that can either punches you in the gut for the best. I love it so much. And so, you know, thank God, artists and people are creative, because for me, that's like, that's the stuff of life. But I'm not for everybody, I guess. But yeah, it does take a bit of Yeah, resilience and determination. And it's not really a choice is that you're just Oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's very true. Yeah. Yeah, it's just you just make you just have to. Yes, you are compelled to do it. Yeah, yep. Yep. Yeah, I think it's great. I have so much admiration for all of us and relishing myself. And yeah, I think it's just, Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think I think that's why it's so hard for moms, you create, because of this, the sheer determination that you're going to do what you want to do, you're going to put out what you want to share, you're going to create what you want to create. But then you go, Oh, hang on a minute. There's these other people here now that I have to consider. And it's like trying to reconcile the two. Yeah, it's just, absolutely. I mean, I don't know how you feel when you're kind of writing songs or, but I know that when I'm rehearsing or performing a show, especially leading up to opening night, or things like that, I find it very hard to be present. Because I'm always thinking about just feeling nervous, really, or you kind of consumed about the characters I'm exploring. And so it's a tricky balance to be kind of be present. With the kids walking something at the same time, but also, yeah. Enjoy the privilege. Yeah, it's, it's, that's a, it's a really hard one. There's the episode that came out today with Rachel, she said that she always tried to keep the two things really separate the, the parenting, and her art practice. And I think it's different. Because when you're actually, you know, you physically holding a paintbrush or physically holding a pen, you can go to this space and do it. But you're in this, here. And so then she she found that if she could get some time doing her art, then she could go right, that's done. Now I can go see my children, which works great, you know, for that sort of medium. But I find like, your mind can be really challenging because you've always got stuff going around in your head. Like, yeah, always there. And how do you switch that off? Well, your children have come over and said, Hey, what should we do this and you're going when I'm watching but my brains back here thinking about what I was really challenging just to but when I come in here to actually record something, that's the easy bit because I can go right I'm shutting the door. Give me 10 minutes to record. Yeah, it's all the other step the other times the hard, you know, yeah. And yeah, it's rattling around in here. And you just, you just want to grab, like, things will come to you in a second and you're like, Oh, hang on, hang on. I have to write this down. Yeah. Because the truth is Do you know? Oh, I don't know. It's just like, ah, yeah, heads looks like splitting. Yeah, I'd be I find it tricky as well. And because I, I spent a lot of time when I'm rehearsing and performing actually away from the family. So that's easier for that in that regard for to be able to kind of just concentrate on, on the show that I'm doing. Whereas I find now that I'm doing a bit more work here and in my Gambia at home, and it's actually really tricky. When you when you work go to work during the day, and then you have to come home and and come try and switch it off. So that's a real struggle for me, because I've kind of had an realize it was a bit of a luxury to be able to just get in that bubble, and, and kind of create and then not have to come home and parent that yeah, the really tricky part is trying to combine the two and, you know, I have huge admiration for, you know, a lot of my working actor friends in Adelaide that have to do that all the time, because that's tricky. Yeah. Just these endless challenges that we're faced with. Yeah, something comes up. Show that you've got coming up that you're working on the children show, how when's that sort of looking like it will have its opening and that sort of stuff? Yeah, so that's a company called the paper boats and theatre theater, Michael de Brown, who used to work at patch theater, so that when I was doing my shadow, and he was the artistic director there, so we've had a long kind of working relationship. He is developing a show with another creative down here called Kevin Clark. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So dancer musician, I feel like it's the triple threat. And he, so I'm working on a little show called Seven little wonders that will be performed, I think, as part of the Fringe Festival Matt gave me that. March. Yeah. So we're kind of slowly kind of developing. It involves like six little six kids on stage the whole time. So I've never it'll be an interesting and interesting experience, I think and so that's why we're starting we're gonna get a few test audiences in early but hopefully the the beautiful kind of, you know, little show for for kind of four to eight year olds. Oh, wonderful. That sounds awesome. Yeah, that sounds Yeah, gag, gag just he plays all these different instruments. And I just kind of stand there and say words every now and again. But the fairy wouldn't have the show without your words. Thank you if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman H dwellest Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Sally Rippin Australia's highest selling female author + illustrator S2 Ep71 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Sally Rippin is a best-selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her 3 children. Sally is Australia’s highest-selling female author and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults and adults. Her widely popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than ten million copies in eighteen countries. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in South-East Asia. As a young adult she studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai and Hangzhou, which inspired her first novel Chenxi and the Foreigner. which she started writing when she was 19. Sally loves to write stories with heart and includes characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally has written and illustrated books for babies, children, young adults and now adults. Sally's books for children include the popular Billie B Brown and Hey Jack! series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released, called Wild Things, it is about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don’t. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school; a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time. She couldn’t have been more wrong. Her son’s dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers, and labelled as ‘difficult’ by an education system that couldn’t easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was – almost – too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September Sally released a picture book, co-written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hull, called Come Over To My House. Inside, readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as Deaf or disabled. The first of its kind, this picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and home. Resources for parents Find Sally website Podcast website / instagram Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. My guest this week is Sally rippin. Sally is a best selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her three children. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in Southeast Asia. As a young adult. She studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai. And this inspired her first novel Chen Zhi and the foreigner, which she started writing when she was just 19. Sally is Australia's highest selling female author, and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults, and now adults. Her wildly popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than 10 million copies in 18 countries. Sally loves to write stories with heart, and characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally's books for children include the popular Billy B Brown, and hijack series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released called wild things. It's about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school, a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time, but she couldn't have been more wrong. Her son's dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers and labeled as difficult by an education system that couldn't easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was almost too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September, Sally released a picture book co written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hall called come over to my house. Inside readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as deaf or disabled. The first of its kind. This picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and our home. The music you'll hear on today's podcast is from my ambient music, New Age trio called LM joy and that comprise comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. Thank you again for listening. And I hope you enjoyed today's chat with Sally. Welcome to the podcast. Sally. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome you and to meet you today. It's really exciting to be here. Thanks, Alison. You're a best selling author. That's pretty exciting. And you've been writing for 25 years you've written 100 books. That's quite prolific, isn't it? Like? I mean, my max four books a year give or take? Yeah, well, look, there have been some really busy periods. But also, I guess what I probably want to say and I think a lot of artists out there would relate to this is that I've been published for 25 years, but I've been writing since I was little Yeah, I was a kid that was always in a corner reading books drawing, making my own books. So yeah, so I think I think I'm sure you imagine that that's something that a lot of us would say and I suppose it's the same for you too, is that it still feels a little bit surreal for me, and I don't think of myself as a six successful author or a best selling author because really, all I'm doing is exactly what I did when I was a little kid and I get paid for it and I can do it all day every day. So it doesn't Feel like a job. It just kind of feels like this incredible dream come true. Yeah, that is awesome, isn't it to be able to just literally live out your dream every day? And yeah, cuz that's something I do talk to my guests about, like, how did it start? Where did it come from? Were you influenced as a child growing up? Did you have people around you that were really heavily into pork? Yeah, definitely. So we moved around a lot as kids, because of my dad's job we moved about every two years. And we mainly grew up in Southeast Asia a little bit of time in England as well. But the most important aspect of that is that we would spend a lot of time in hotel rooms on airplanes in airports. And this was long before the internet, or iPads or anything like that. So my mom would have to give us books to read. And when we had run out of books, because they're heavy to carry around, she would just give us pencils and paper, and we'd make our own books. And I really credit that along with a couple of fantastic English teachers and art teachers as being the support that gave me the confidence to think that it was something more than just something I would do at my craft table. But something that I could protect, potentially do that other people would want to look at as well. So I think I was really, really lucky that I had adults around me that believed in me supported in me, teachers that would read my stories out in class or at teachers that would really push me to go further. So yeah, I think that was a huge part of of me just having the confidence to go ahead. Having said that, my dad wasn't so supportive of me turning out to be an artist. For him. That was a little bit like saying, I was dropping out. Because I was good at school. And so and he he went to a very, not a very wealthy school in Adelaide, you're in South Australia, I just saw and he was the only kid in his year level to go on to university was quite a rough school he went to, and he went on to be a civil engineer. So he worked really hard to put his daughters to a private school. And when I told him I was going to be an artist, he was like, he just couldn't believe it. It was like you're going to waste that private school education unbecoming. Inadequate him that was like saying I was just dropping out. But he's so proud of me now, you know, and I think, partly, it was encouraging courage meant of my mum that supported me. But I also think there was part of the grist to the mill. That was important coming from my dad, too, because I think I wanted to prove something to him to myself that, no, it wasn't just this kind of alternative way of saying that I didn't want to go and get a job. It was actually odd is that people that work hard, you know, they're dedicated to what they do. And, you know, and potentially they can make a living from it. So in some ways, maybe if I'd only had support, and no one kind of with some nobody to push up against. Maybe I wouldn't have driven myself so hard. Yeah, it's interesting. Isn't it like that balance between the two? It's almost like the devil's advocate sort of spear you on saying, oh, you can't do this. And you're like, hang on a sec. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I'm so stubborn, too. So if you tell me, this makes me want to do more? That's funny. minute talking about your art teachers and your school teachers, I've been reading your book, wild things, thank you for sending me the copy too, because I have really resonated and I will talk a bit more about that in the future, but in the future of his podcasts in a moment. But yeah, when you say you teach it, it was like she was with a capital A, it was like a proper subject, not something just to sort of bridge between, you know, science or maths or, you know, the serious subjects and putting them in air quotes. And that's massive, isn't it to have that support of someone? We can take it seriously, like you said, you can make a career out of it. It does take hard work like anything, but you know, to have that option, you know, presented to you in in your sort of formative years when you're so influenced by things. Absolutely. And I was very influenced by her too. When I look back on it. I think she was probably only quite young at the time. Well, there are when you're a teenager, anyone who's old. I think it was her first teaching year. And she was very alternative. She was quite tall and thin, and she was always dressed all in black. She was you know, quite goth looking. And she was a bit smelly and unapproachable. And so any of the students that did kind of just turn up to art class and treat it like it was just such a slack off period. She really treated them with a lot of disdain, but because she could see I was really into it. She really took me under her wing and she would take me to exhibitions of contemporary artists on weekends. Use me to Hockney. She took me in a hot me exhibition. Some other weird Melbourne artists with weird kind of colourful stuff with dead my stuck on the fact that she was so excited and so inspired by that, and also that she saw something in me as well, you know, she could see that, that that mattered to me. And so even though I was in this very conservative mainstream girl school, I think she just liked the fact that there was that little ounce of rebel that was just the, the grain of all good artists. Just pushing up against things just Yeah. When you were talking about your teacher there reminded me of I had two teachers, their husband and wife, and they were just the most laid back hippie people you'd ever made. And some of the most interesting music I ever listened to. Was in Mr. Vans class used to put on like, America, I think they were called like that. The Horse With No brain or whatever that we'd saw. And my son actually is just on his Spotify playlist, it popped up and I'm just like, oh, the memories. Back from the song. It was just, it was bizarre. But yeah, I love the horses no name. That's what it is. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. Yeah. You knew what I meant, though. So that was good lace. Kind of uniform better, actually. Me All right. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think, because there's part of going through adolescence that you want to separate from your parents. And so if you're lucky enough that you do have other adults around you, that are doing interesting things. They can be extraordinary role models, and they can really set you on to quite alternative paths to the ones that your parents had laid out for you. And so they're really vital having good role models around you at that age. That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Your first book was a book that was actually written for young readers a bit of a mishmash in the way I built my career. Because I guess, because I hadn't grown up around artists, that wasn't something that I had considered was going to be the direction I'd go down. And so I read a lot, I drew a lot, I had great teachers, but I didn't actually know any grown up artists. And so I've just always written and drawn for myself, but really, I guess I'd always kind of thought that that was just something that was my own passion, my own drive, but I went to live in China for a few years. So my dad got a job there. And I went to study over there while he was living there, studying traditional Chinese painting. And at the same time, I was writing lots of letters home to friends to really try and explain what this extraordinary city of Shanghai was, like, at a time that had just come out of the Tiananmen Square riots, it was transitioning from very conservative, communist values to more progressive values. And I was in the art school. So all the arts students were part of all those, those demonstrations, and they were the ones that were really out there, you know, pleading for change, and wanting to open up the country much more to the west. And so I was writing all these letters home, and eventually, you know, there, I started to find to make them into short stories. So I'd always written stories, but I found that this was a way that I could take all the things that were happening, but also kind of almost elaborate on them and, and potentially put in some history and some characters. And so this is what just in a really weird way, eventually became my first young adult novel. And I was 19 when I started writing it, so I didn't really know what it was going to be either. But once again, I would say throughout my life, I've been blessed to come across incredible mentors. And so I, first of all, how did I get into that? That's right. I thought it was going to be a novel for adults. And I went to see I thought I'll penguin publishing I've heard of them. I know what I looked them up and where they were. And I managed I don't know how I managed to do it. This was a long time ago, to get an appointment with a publisher there who's a wonderful woman who's now become a close friend called Erica Wagner. And she had a look at what I was writing. She said, I think this is young adult Did you know I don't think this is adult and first, I was bit insulted at all what you're telling me, I'm a teenager, I was like I was 22 or something. But then she gave me three books. She gave me a book called Sleeping Dogs by Sonya Hart that she gave me looking for Alibrandi by Melina Marchetta. And she gave me peeling the onion by Wendy Orr. And I took those books, and I devoured them. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, this is young adult literature. I mean, I'm interested. And I realized how much it was pushing up against boundaries, and how much it really was exploring that really tumultuous time of adolescence. And it wasn't the teenage literature that I grown up reading, which was all about periods and boyfriends and pimples, that was really, really pushing the boundaries. So I was working on that. At the same time, I was still drawing and painting. And the first book I actually did manage to get published was a picture book. But in the background, I was working on that young adult novel. So even though that wasn't the first thing I had published, I was certainly that was the first thing I was writing. So everything kind of arrived in, in succession after that. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's an awesome story. And I'm sorry, I'm, I haven't read that book. I'm not actually, I'm not a massive reader. I just I don't know, I have, I find it difficult to sit for long periods of time and read. And I know, that's really bad to say, but I do make an effort when I, you know, really want to read something. That yeah, it's like, you've got the two aspects going together, like the children are becoming, you know, young adults, they're growing up, and then you've got that change of China at that time. So that's a really sort of awesome combination. Really, did you sort of realize that at the time, you're really onto something with that, I think I had a gut feeling that I was because my I had a couple of best friends at the time. One of them was a Chinese student, a man called Gen Z. And he was very politically minded. And he also took me into parts of China that I may not have been able to access on my own as a white Westerner. And then the other person who was a big influence on me, ended up becoming my boyfriend, and then eventually the father to my two older kids. And he was also very kind of rebellious and curious and seeking adventures. So I had those two really great role models to really push me outside of my comfort zone. But also, I was really able to see what it was like to be young Chinese person, particularly young adults growing up in China, as well as seeing the difference to how we were treated as expatriates, and the privileges and doors that were open to us. So I don't think I could have written that book, had I not had some really close Chinese friends and being part of the student body, had I only just mixed in the expatriate circles, I think it would have been very superficial. And so I was actually able to feel what the changes were happening in China from the perspective of other young people. And the danger that a lot of them were under even sometimes by just being friends with Westerners at the time was dangerous for them. So So those things I was aware of, and those things I tried to put into the novel, probably in a fairly naive way. But extraordinarily, several years later, I met another incredible mentor, the publisher text, Penny Houston, and she had read that book, and it had gone out of print. And she said, look, I think this was fantastic novel. And it's such a shame, it's gone out of print, why don't we give it another go. And so with her support, I did write another version of that book and went a little bit deeper. Now I was a bit older, a little bit more politically savvy, I was able to really understand what the situation had been like, with some perspective in the way that might have been. So I had the combination of both being submerged in it, but then being able to write it with a bit of perspective to later on. So yeah, I'm still really proud of that. You know, it's, it was you know, when I consider that I started writing it at 90. I look at that nothing. Yeah, well, you did that. Amazing. I did a residency in China, at a very prestigious International School. And the Australian librarian there just surreptitiously made sure that book was available on shelves for young students can change lives. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing in a country like that, where things are so heavily controlled, and, and, yeah, to be able to sneak something like that under the radar view. Awesome. Amazing. Do you keep up with what's going on in China now? Like having been, you know, immersed in it? Do you sort of keep an eye on how things are tracking over there? Do you still have friends over there? Yeah, less. So. For a couple of reasons. One, my dad lived there up until recently, so I was Background, visiting him quite a lot. And because all of the people he worked with were local Chinese, it was very easy to get an internal perspective of what was going on in the world. But since he's moved back to Australia, plus he is married to this fabulous Italian lady who speaks fluent Chinese. And so she was very much part of the cultural. The cultural hub of Shanghai. In fact, she had a newsletter that was called Maria's choice, and it would tell you which exhibitions you should go to which films you should go to. And she'd actually worked down now on film sets with Chinese film crews, as well. So for example, resolutie film The Last Emperor, she worked on that one. So both of those were people, my dad and my stepmother were a great source of information. I mean, obviously, it's not the same as being a Chinese person growing up in China, but everybody they worked with was Chinese. So it felt like it was pretty authentic. But they've moved back, Reg. More recently, I'm still in touch with Gen Z, but he lives in Australia now. And most of my Chinese friends, it's very hard to communicate with because I can speak Mandarin, but I can't read and write it. So unless we're phone calls, you know, having phone calls, which we don't really do more. It's really hard to keep track of where they all are, and where they're at what they're up to. But a couple of them I've kept in touch with. Yeah, that's interesting. It's like it's the country that's always fascinated me. And I had a friend that she was a school teacher here, and she went over for 12 months, doing like teaching in a what do you call them? An international school? Yeah. And she, she loved it. But it's the sort of place I think I'd get quite daunted by it. Like, I don't know, it feels a bit. Like, if you did the wrong thing, you'd feel like you're gonna get in big trouble or something, you know, like it feels. Maybe that's just for me, because I've never been, yeah, well, that that's the thing with the often those great experiences that you can have, like your friend did is that when you are employed there, and you're an expatriate, you do get to live and integrate within the country to an extent, but you're also very protected by your expatriate passport. And I don't think Chinese or I'm happy to be quoted, said, I'm wrong on this, but I don't think Chinese people will have anybody who was born outside the country ever recognized as a Chinese citizen, I think, potentially, maybe you're from Taiwan or Hong Kong, then that, obviously. But everybody else kind of has this very privileged surface existence. And we even knew that it students that, you know, when we're going out to nightclubs, or places like that, often, our Chinese friends wouldn't be allowed in these would be local nightclubs. And we were and so it's a kind of an fact, to my dad's credit. That's why he ended up moving us out of Asia, because we were I was doing High School in Hong Kong. And he didn't want us to live our whole lives, kind of having this sense of entitlement. I think just knowing that just because of the color of our skin that we've had become a bit untouchable. And then the rules didn't apply to us that they did for the local people that we, you know, we grow up often with mates. And he didn't want us to think that that was the world's normality. So he wanted us to have a much simpler lifestyle, you know, mind you, he still put us into a private school in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne. But he didn't want us to think that, that we had this assumption that everybody lived this way. And then suddenly, as expatriates, most people do live a very wealthy protected bubble like life. Yeah, you know, and, and often, the darker sides of China are even withheld from locals as well, you know, often it's really hard even for locals to unless they make really good local friends. You know, a lot of that is hidden from them. And so a lot of their people with disabilities aren't allowed on the streets or a lot of crime is shut down very quickly to have very tough measures on crime. So if anything, you're safer there than you are in Australia, because they don't you know, Chinese are very proud and they want the country to appear a certain way to outsiders eyes. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I sort of didn't think we only want to ask you lots of other things, but I'm not going to become very politically, the Chinese if you get quite political so we'll just say thank you for sharing your thoughts. Sorry, your book wild things, which is awesome, by the way. And again, thank you for sending it to me. It's called Wild Things, how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. And like I said earlier, I really resonated with this because my son, he's got some learning issues he hasn't been diagnosed with for ADHD, but the way they described him and it was interesting in your book, you've got to pick like a little thing about this describing the different types of ADHD. He's got the inattentive, distractibility type. So as I was reading this, so many times, I just went, Oh, my God, that's, that's how I felt, or that's what I should have done, or, you know, all this sort of stuff. So, rather than me keep blabbing on, can you share, in your own words, the inspiration behind your book? Yeah, thank you. It's lovely to hear how you've resonated with it. And that is partly why I wrote this book. So this is a scary thing for me to do. I've written for children for many, many years. Who am I to think I can write a book for grownups. But I, my son was struggling. And somehow, I let myself believe it would all kind of work itself out over time. So it was quite clear from regret about grade two, that he was struggling to acquire the reading skills that his two older brothers had easily been able to do. He did have a wonderful teacher in prep, who alerted me to the fact she thought he might have some reading issues. But I completely dismissed her I just thought, oh, you know, he's in prep, you know, they should just be playing with sand and water, what's the what's the issue here. And so I let it go for too long. And I kept thinking, Well, maybe he just won't be a reader. And so I'll write books that he wants to read. And so I wrote the Billy v. Brown series and tested them out on him. And then I wrote the hit page X series. And I figured, you know, they'll always be something that will engage him, I don't need to worry too much about reading, you know, my two older boys love reading, I love reading, maybe he just won't be a reader. What I hadn't taken to an account is how much reading affects everything. So if you can't read, there's very little in school that you can engage with, and you lose the capacity to express yourself to articulate your thoughts. And, of course, your self esteem becomes completely crushed. So within primary school, he managed to get by because he had lovely teachers who could see the good parts of him and make him feel okay about himself. But of course, once he got to high school, the wheels fell off. And it was really, really hard to get him the support he needed we'd up partly because somehow the school didn't want to believe that, that this was going to be an issue for him, that he'd got all the way to the end of year seven before I realized he wasn't even having working. So now we're in year eight, and his self esteem is worse. And so now, of course, his behavior is impacted. And so he's becoming a kid that has to get attention somehow. So He does it by by playing up or by doing dumb things to bond with peers. And so now he's becoming a kid, that's a problem in the class. So we're now getting up to year nine, and he has now completely disengaged from school, and also feeling like teachers and on his side. So by now I'm in an absolute panic, because I spend my life, you know, traveling around the world, talking to kids, and making them feel good about themselves and talking to parents about how we acquire reading, and how to get your reluctant reader reading. And I thought, I've obviously missed something here. You know, there's, there's a reason why my son has got this far. And he's going downhill fast. So I thought, I've got to research this. And so I just started asking people tell me how you teach your child to read, tell me what's going on for your child, I started tapping into support groups. And all of a sudden, I found this whole lot of information out there. And I couldn't understand how I hadn't been able to access it before. It's all out there. But it's really hard to find. And I was talking to lots of parents like yourself, who was who was saying, you know, my child struggling in school, or my child hasn't been able to pick up reading skills or, or whatever, and I. So once I tapped into these support groups, one of them suggested that I also had them assessed for ADHD, which is a very common thing among their children. And I really just took him to the doctor just to you know, write that one off, I thought, oh, no, he's not ADHD because somehow people have got in their mind that it's just those noisy ratty little kids that paid well wasn't like that. He was a daydreamer. Who was swayed he was, you know, wanting to please. And so sure enough, he was diagnosed with ADHD and so I just thought, how is this All coming to me now. And now he's 15, he's disengaged, he feels terrible about himself. And he's talking about dropping out of school. So then I went around to all my friends. And I said, Did you know this? So you've got to know this or, and I met more and more people like you that were saying, you know, wanting to share their stories, too. So I thought, I've got to put all this into one place. Not let everybody else I know, go through all the struggles that my son and I had to. And so I thought I'd go to my publisher, and I'll talk to her about this idea. I really didn't think that she'd take it on. And she said, Yep, we'll do it. But it took me two years to find the contract. Because I wasn't convinced I could do it. And the biggest part of it was just getting over that self doubt that I think a lot of us, do you know that? You know, who am I to think I can do this? You know, I'm not an expert in the field. So I did a huge amount of research, read some really dense books on neuroscience and a lot of books on how we acquire reading skills, or what happens in our brains. Talk to a whole lot of experts. The amazing thing about writing a nonfiction book is you can call up anyone, I'm writing a book, can I interview, you get my diarrhea. I spoke to the most amazing people, I spoke to this extraordinary woman over in the US who had actually changed, who had actually changed the schooling system that her child was a part of by just getting a whole lot of other parents on board. So when you tap into these support groups, they're extraordinarily powerful, and they're emotionally charged. So there were so many people wanting to support me in writing this book, that the days when I thought I can't do this, I've got to drop it. Let's just go back to writing for kids. I thought about those people. And I thought I can't let him down. All these people have already shared their stories, or these people have already given me their time and their expertise. I just have to keep pushing through. I did. And even when I handed the first draft to my publisher, I was sure she'd say are no actually look, you know, I'm not so sure about this. But she loved it. And the thing that she responded to the most strongly was the memoir elements of it. And she said, you know, all the scientific stuff is important. But the stuff that I really, that really sticks with me is all the personal stuff. So of course, that's where you feel the most vulnerable. And so I just kept expanding on those bits. And then in the very later drafts, running all of them passed my son to check that he was comfortable with all of them as well. And so interesting stuff came out of that as well. Because when I'd read something out that had happened five years ago, he was now older, unable to say actually, that wasn't my experience of it. So he was able to then share what had been like for him. So it became almost this beautiful combinate this beautiful moment where I was able to actually understand my son more by doing the research into this book. And this was all done during lockdown as well. So we spent a lot of time together. Had I not done the research for that book? I don't know where my son and I would be at now because we've become very disconnected. I had become really just full blown anxiety stressed out, not knowing what was going on what was normal, what wasn't. And now I've got this beautiful young man in my life who has this extraordinary unique brain. kooky? Yeah, is really beautiful, empathetic, and feeling good about himself, you know, after feeling so crushed by the system, I think, all that time working on the book and running lots of it past him. He feels good about himself. He knows that. Yeah, he's different. That's cool. Yeah. Does he does he kind of also think Can he see that by sharing like you sharing his, in your experience that it will help others? Is that something that he sort of takes in as well? Yeah, look, I think he's probably still a little bit young to really get the implications of that. He's only 19 and a half. So I have said to him again, and again, look, by us being vulnerable, and sharing our stories, potentially, we can, you know, empower people to be able to support their kids better. So they don't have to go through the same things as that. So he understands the intent, whether he really understands it in the way that I think, potentially only a really panicky struggling parent could really understand it. Who knows. You know, I think when you're a teenager, you're the center of your universe, you don't really know or under Oct nor should you know how your behavior is impacting the people around you. You know, I one of the things I recognized is how much I projected onto him, you know, how much I saw him as responsible for my anxieties rather than me responsible for my anxiety. And that was a huge sub. Most of the growth has come from me, letting go of who I thought my son was actually really working out who he is? Towards the end of the book, you've got a chapter called things I wish I'd done differently. But one of the points is, except your kid is different. So that's a pretty powerful thing. Like you said, you've got that shift, did you also find then accept yourself to in that you can only, like, he can't blame yourself, you can't beat yourself up. You can only do what you can do and accept that this is, it is what it is kind of thing without giving up, you know what I mean, but accepting that you can't go back and change things or that kind of thing. Was that something for you? as well? Yeah, I think that's a really nice way to put it. I, I know that I'm quite hard on myself about it. And particularly because it feels like and I might be wrong, that everybody else seems to know how to do this advocacy, parenting stuff. And in all these support groups, you know, they're really, it looks like they all know what they're doing. They're starting much younger than I did, people seem to be so much more aware and onto these things. And I felt like, somehow I just didn't, didn't get that memo. And so, I do feel like I could have done better. And I do feel like my son's trajectory would have been very different. Had I done differently. Having said that, I don't think I was very supported in the education system. You know, there were times when I felt like, the things that, you know, I was getting assessments done, and I would take them to the school, and they'd be filed away, and nothing would be done about it. Or I would say, you know, I'm, I have a concern here, and I kind of just be dismissed, you know, teachers and and, and it'll be fine. It'll sort itself out. And first of all, what I want to say is, that's absolutely not the fault of teachers is that one of the things that teachers who I've also interviewed for the book have told me is that, you know, they can't be expected to recognize and identify what kid needs, what you know, what issues they may have, whether it's they haven't had breakfast, or whether their parents are splitting up, they have a mental health condition or they neurodivergent you know, they're not counselors, and they're already under so much pressure. But I guess I had thought that that was something that the school will be able to handle and I recognize now that is, you know, as hard as it is, it really does fall back at least on the parent to be the advocate for the child and to educate themselves. So I definitely could have done a better job of that. But I also want to say that it's never too late and this is the thing I'm really proud of you know that there were times when my son was sneaking out at night and getting up to all kinds of stuff when and I was single parenting and making a lot of these decisions on my own. And there were a lot of times where I thought I can't do this I actually am not up for it I don't have the skills but there's no choice you no one else no one else is gonna do it for you. I just had to step up and I had to recognize that yeah, I stuffed up in the early days I hadn't done enough but today is the day we start work you know roll your sleeves up. Yeah, let's see. Skilled I read a lot I got a lot of support but I also did a couple of years of counseling costs as well and I learned to become a better listener so I learned to actually listen more talk less so I could get to know really what my son needed Yeah and he's so proud to put this young man in the world Yeah well that's that's so lovely yeah this with Alex he I feel the same in lots of different ways of your story that Alex he was always the kid that was like distracts others can't stay on task, you know, every single year level. Whenever we get his report or we talk to the teachers, it was the same thing and I kept saying to my husband, but what do we do? Like we've tried all these strategies about you know, different some teachers were really good at giving him more focus and they'd have put a special desk near them and, and sort of every now and then they you know, he'd be staring off into space and they bring him back and If others would just completely disown him, because they'd be like, well, that kid doesn't want to learn, I'm not gonna have anything to do with it, you know, and I can understand, you know, my backgrounds in early childhood education. I've been a kindy tech, not kindy teacher, but kindy worker and a childcare worker for nearly 10 years. So I get, I get what it's like to be in an educational setting, perhaps not exactly what schools like, but I, you know, I have a bit of an understanding, and I don't like same thing, I don't blame teachers, they've got enough on their plate as it is. And so I'm saying to my husband, we keep getting the same things, the same things like, what do we do about it? And everyone was like, oh, no, he'll grow out of it. Bla bla bla. And looking back. Now I know, there were signs they were all looking us in the face. But no one ever said, Have you ever thought about this? Have you ever thought about having intested ever yet, you know, and it was like you were just left to flounder because you don't know what you don't know. Being our first child, first child going into the world, you think people are going to tell you things, you know, people who know stuff should help us. But if they don't, then you have no idea what you're doing. And it wasn't till he got to high school. Same thing with your son, that literally the wheels fell off. And that's when we got the help we needed and we think started looking out for him. Because we actually have the tools and the people around us that could suggest things. So it's like, everyone just thought he just grow out of it. Like the little boy just playing around, he'll be fine. And he did to a degree, but also think he liked to hide it as well. I think he got really clever like your son, I think people that have have challenges get very, very, they're very intelligent people who are able to mask things and do things in other ways and teach themselves in other ways and learn other ways. Yeah, I think that's such a great way of explaining it. Because, you know, and this is why I think the more we talk about it, the better it is. And what we have in this generation that our parents didn't have, and certainly not before them, is social media. So now we have the capacity to hear marginalized voices tell their own story. So I don't know if you saw the Press Club talk that Mr. shiana gave me and that being a late diagnosed ADHD, I follow a lot of neurodivergent activists on social media, I tap into disability support groups. So we have that now we have the capacity to educate ourselves, and look at behavior as just being in information. Whereas before all these kids, like my dad also had a terrible time at school, he now suspects he's potentially neurodivergent himself, my younger sister as well, is really convinced she's dyslexic, they gave her glasses, you know, people didn't really know. So these people grow up feeling terrible about themselves, and some of them will go on and be resilient adults. Some of them don't, some of them end up in, you know, justice systems, because they can engage in school, they hang out with other people who have issues engaging with schools for a myriad of reasons. And they go down a really dark pathway, and often don't come out the other side of it, like our kids are lucky enough to do. And that's why if I have anything come out of having published this book, I hope that it starts conversations like already, you and I are starting to talk about the experiences that children have gone to through, I'm getting several messages a week from people I've never met, saying, This is my story, you know, or this is what's going on for my kid. And I think this is how we make change, we shine a light on all these things. So that then the burden is not placed on individuals, not just on the teacher or the parent. But everybody knows, ah, that kid, you know, maybe has this particular learning style. So let's find a support network for them in this way, or one of the most brilliant educators who was knighted for his ideas. So Ken Robinson has an extraordinary TED Talk where he talks about this young girl in the classroom. And this would have been back in the 70s, I imagine who couldn't sit still and everybody thought there was something wrong with her. And the psychologist left the room turns the music on and she got up and danced. And he said to the parents, there's nothing wrong with her. She's a dancer. And I think the next book I want to explore is also the idea of the artist as well, because the artist is most likely a person that hasn't connected with the mainstream that has found mainstream education, really difficult to engage them in certain ways. And so a whether it's unconventional people who are drawn to art, or whether we stay on conventional because we're able to express ourselves in a way that you can't do if you're a real estate agent. I'm interested to explore that further because I don't think that's a coincidence that that add us neurodivergent people, people who have strong feelings, you know, may struggle with their mental health. There's a lot of overlap with all of that there but unfortunately, schools are set up For one kind of learner, yeah. And that has to change. Oh, yeah. But this is a conversation, I could have 100 times over. It's just the frustration that you get, like just the simple thing. Like last night, my son, my little boy who's seven, he was looking through last year's school magazine. And he noticed some of the kids that were on a special page, and they were the ones that had won the academic awards for their year level. And he asked me what it meant, and I knew where it was going. And I said, these are the children that were judged in a certain way to be clever. And he said, Does that mean I'm not smart? And I knew where it was going. I could read it like a book. And I said, No, I said, it means that for the certain tests that they did, to work out who was clever in this certain way, these kids were the best at that. And I said, and there's other tests in the world. And it wasn't like a test it was more are other ways in the world, that you are determined to be, you know, clever in other ways. And he but he kept on with it. He said, Does that mean I won't win an award and I said, darling, you're reminding these already won some awards for being kind and you know, for, for perseverance and that kind of thing. And it just straightaway, just flashed in my head, like, this moment, I remember in kindergarten, when my my eldest son, who's, you know, Alex, who's got the issues, went to kindergarten for the first time. And this was before I was working in the Childcare and Education area. And I took him to kindy. And they all had to sit down. And they all had to sit with their legs exactly the same crossed in the front. And they all had to sit up and look at the front. And I just thought, it's like, I don't know what the rule is, I could, like I could see the light go out in him, if, you know, he couldn't even sit the way he wanted to, he couldn't express his himself in the way he wanted to just by being present. And I just, I walked away from them with tears in my eyes, because I thought you just squashing these little people right from the beginning. And now when I'm, like I'm working to kindy now, and there's some children that, you know, you can tell that they're feeling unsettled for the way they're being told to sit or whatever, and I'll, I'll bring him over. And I'll say, Just stretch your legs out a bit, you know, give them a bit of a shake, you know, and, you know, hiding sort of way, I hope none of my kindy cohorts are listening to this, you know, you should be able to sit however you want to see. So, you know, just breaks my heart. And that's the start of it, the very start of the conformity is expected for the next, you know, 1314 years of their lives. Yeah, just breaks my heart. And it's crashing, you know, your story breaks my heart too, because, you know, that's all of these brilliant minds, that are just kind of being pushed through this one system that was created 100 years ago to make factory workers, docile, factory factory workers. And so, you know, what I was stressed again, is there are extraordinary teachers working within the six, this repressive system. And if you're lucky enough, your kid will find a teacher that can just see something in you, you know, keep your self esteem intact. But you know, like, asking my book is this really the best we can do for our kids, you know, to spend 12, or 13 years of your most formative years of your life, in a system that makes you feel broken or wrong or a failure, you know, some kids will thrive, some kids will come through and feel great about themselves. But others will, you know, just be left completely broken. And so many adults, I interviewed about the book, there's a young, a beautiful man who I call Tony in the book that told me about his school experience. And it's so common, you know, just to feel completely, and some people never recover from that, just to feel completely crushed by that. So that's also where I feel like when we start to understand what my friend Eliza hull has taught me about the social model of disability, when we start to understand that it is actually a person's right, to be able to express themselves authentically, and to be able to set up their environments and they can thrive, then schools will be more accommodating towards kids that can't sit with their legs crossed, you know, and there are a lot of autistic activists, self advocating activists that are now really loudly and proudly saying, Do not shut us down, you know, we need to move we need to stim. This is how we emotionally regulate it, stop trying to make us not like us, we want to live full, authentic lives. And this is what we need to do all the kids coming through schools. And look, it's I don't know what that will look like. Because, of course, it's great to bombard ideas into the, you know, into the ether and not know how to put that into practice. Because, you know, like we were saying before, as a teacher working one teacher with 25 kids, each of them have their own specific needs. But a lot of the feedback teachers gave me is that even just lowering the student teacher ratio, just aides in the classroom, your more external things to be able to self regulate. So one credible school that I talked to has a massive what they call the shed. And it's a big workshop space and kids with difficulty in staying within the classroom neurodivergent kids or kids with learning difficulties have factored in spaces during the week where they can go and do stuff in the shed where volunteers come in, they did some cooking would work in a basket weaving whatever. And there's no stigma attached to spending time in the shed, because it's a cool place to be, you can go to the shed as well. So it's so tricky, because yes, sometimes it does require taking these kids out of the classroom and finding something they're good at. And all I remember myself, the kids that got taken out of the class, you know that there's something different about them. And there's stigma attached to that my son hated that, if that meant that he was stupid. So there's, there's got to be more creative ways of doing it. So that we can offer different ways of making our kids feel good about themselves. And that's where parents are really important to, to just to see like you're doing to see that it's a big picture. And all the successful adults I interviewed who neurodivergent said the one thing that got them through was finding something they were good at. And maybe that's art, maybe that sport for one guy was sailing, you know, Torian champion sailing, yeah, doesn't matter what it is, you've got to you got to have something that's yours that you didn't want. Alex is playing the bagpipes. He's like, Oh, my God, like the kid that like both my husband and I are musical and, you know, always had music in the house and sang and played. And for years, I'd be like, taught me to teach you this. Do you want me to teach that night night and I was I think it was, you know, out of, you know, rebellion against Moto and mom to teach me something, you know. And then all of a sudden, remember the that squid game that TV show that was big about a 12 months ago, the same song of that like the do do this kind of little tune on a recorder. So all of a sudden Alex decides he wants to play the recorder. And I'm like, Okay, that's great. So I didn't really take him seriously. So I ended up buying him recorder because the kids had a recorder when they were little. And I pulled it to pieces and hid the pieces around the house because I hate it. It's like there's a there's a keyboard here. There's a guitar there. Could you play something else anyway, so he loved it learnt heaps of songs on it. And I thought, I can't have this sound. It's issues with particular sounds, it really triggers me. So I bought him a tin whistle and Irish tin whistle so a nicer sound. It was in a different, like different key. So it challenged him but he loved it learn all these songs. And then one day he just says, I just want to play the bagpipes. And I've just gone up Jesus. Could you not pick something a bit louder? Like, anyway, so in 12 months this kid is, is he's joined the local band. They've been on blowies boat horn, but I will he's, he's they say he's got the most potential of any kid they've seen, you know, in a long time. He's picked it up so quick. And I'm like, I'm just so damn proud of him because he loves it. You know, he's always been a bit left of centre he like always like listening to Scottish music or something a bit different. And I've always embraced it. Because I'm a bit like that as well. So you know, and I just think good for you mate. Like he's found the thing he loves and he's the sort of kid that won't necessarily try hard unless he really likes something. So yeah, we live in the dream now. Because I see DC they have a bag. Yeah, the other day we're watching the I feel GranFondo and they had you know the the bagpipers coming out for your voice and it's like they go mate. And I've always I've also had someone online because we share a little video on on our Facebook, say, Oh, I'm getting married soon, I'm gonna need someone to play the bagpipes. Like, they go mate, you know, and people love it. Like, it's a sort of, if you hear it sort of off in the distance of bagpipe. It's, you know, you get the hair sort of, you know, you get it get goosebumps, whatever. It's amazing instrument. It's just not so amazing when it's literally just out the door. Well, I'm trying to do things in here. But anyway, long story short, He's found his thing and he's, he's thriving and good on you for being open to that as well. Because I think, you know, that that is really important thing that I think parents need to understand is it may not be the thing that you thought it would be, it might be something completely different. But yeah, if you can give them the space and the support to find that thing. And, you know, also be part of it. You know, I do that as well. I say this thing like oh, you know, I don't want to blow my own horn or, you know, I don't want to show off or anything but the kids that have had no successes, and then to be extraordinary at something it's of course we should celebrate that You know, so you know, I think good on it and yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. We spoke earlier about how people connect with you people you've never met, you get the feedback that others are going through it. In your book, you mentioned about an experience where you were booked to speak in front of a whole lot of was it buyers? Buyers? book sellers, new sellers. Yeah. And you had, you know, your, your script, I guess that what you were going to say? And then you started to get these little nudges in your mind that you really wanted to share your son's story. And you did, and it went amazing. And, you know, the feedback you got from people afterwards talking to you for you know, so many hours. Like, it's, it's incredibly wonderful that there are people like you that can share, because I know there's a lot of people that can't but I just want to say how awesome it is that you are doing this, like it's it's just really great. Thank you. And look, I think I, I you know, you and I, we do have a platform. And as scary as it is to be vulnerable. I think that's also such a gift. Every time I've heard someone who has a platform, for whatever reason when they speak openly about something vulnerable. So you know, when I was a teenager, I might have been someone I'm famous coming out, or more recently, it's mental health, or even more recently now with somebody like em Oceana, spotlighting on ADHD, how powerful that is, and how connecting, and then how it does make people feel like that, that they can, you know, look at that person up there that looks like they've got it together so successful. They also have all this stuff going on, too. So I my case. You know, occasionally people say to be about my book horror, it's very vulnerable. For a lot of yourself out there and a panic, a lie awake at night going over bits. And I think, what are people gonna think of that fit? But I think what's the point of creating art, if you don't make something that matters, you know, there's so much froth out there anyway. You know, this is something that I hope would speak to you as a practicing artist and about your podcast being about practicing art, particularly as a parent, you have so little time to waste. Why why do frost why not do something real? vulnerable? Deep, authentic connecting, that's what art can do. Yeah, that's awesome. That is such a great way of looking at it. And I certainly feel that way. It's like, if you're going to do it go big. Before you get into clubs, I've had no pushback. That's the amazing thing. I thought that by now. I mean, it's only been a few weeks, but I thought there would be someone that would take me to task. But all I've got is people thanking me. And so I think it was worth it. It was worth doing that very thing. Because it was see that you're you're trying your best even if I don't get everything right. I'm just I'm trying my best. Right now in my stage of life. Yeah, absolutely. Now that's awesome. It's really interesting, your book. Now you've named it wild things as a reference to that amazing children's book where the wild things are. And throughout your book, you've sort of waved in these characters from other books, and then analyze them for one of a better word, brought them into the 21st century and saying, How would these children be the word diagnosed dying, that's a good way to be perceived in if they were here. Now. What would we say they had a better website. That's really interesting. What How did you come up with that idea? Because it's fascinating. And it's, it's really, it's really interesting, actually. I'm glad you say that. I think it's partly because partly it came from my own anxieties when I first started out writing the book that people would see my name on the book as a children's author and think why is she writing a book for grownups? So I thought, how can I connect what I do and have done for 25 years, this world, I'm passionate about children's literature with what I want to bring to an adult audience. And I taught writing for children for a long time at RMIT in Melbourne. And I always ask my grown up students to bring in a book from their childhood, every time someone holds up a book that meant something to them as a child, the reaction that they have to that, or the memories that are locked into that book, and visceral, you know, we have such a deep connection to our childhoods. We forget that sometimes. And sometimes just bringing an object or a book, or something from your childhood can trigger all these incredible feelings and memories. So I thought, all these books that we grew up reading, you know, we celebrate these characters, and we love them, they become part of our lives, they become part of our culture. So many of them are Naughty. Naughty, because one of the keys to writing good literature is you need conflict. You know, a story doesn't, you know, there's no such thing as a story where just everything happened, nothing happens. You know, the story is created by conflict. It's created by adversity, it's created by all these things, and your main character, you've got to give them some agency. And usually that happens by bucking the system, challenging authority, making changes. And that can usually only happen if you're a little bit of a rebel. So most of our most beloved characters are pretty rebellious. So we celebrate these characters in books. But when our children show the same traits, we really struggle with that like, oh, Ron, you're supposed to sit down and do what you're told, don't stand up and say, the books we're giving them are all about people challenging authority. And so I just wanted adults to, to want to think about that, to think about what it is that we expect from our children that's maybe unnatural, or maybe not even particularly healthy, but also to tap into our own childhood selves, because everything we experienced as a child work we're experiencing for the first time. So we see the world with eyes open and full of awe. And that's what you have to do as a daily practice. As an artist, you have to see the world as it for the first time every day. And that's why people when they travel, they often become creative, because they want to take photographs or write blog posts or lead us home. Because everything is new and exciting. That's what childhood is like. So we can tap back into that childhood aspect of ourselves. It's not infantilizing, it's actually portal into this extraordinary wealth of creativity, and hopefully, connection and compassion for our own children. Like we're looking at what they're doing. And I'm thinking, actually, you know what, I remember doing that myself as a kid, maybe I shouldn't be so hard on them. Like that was a massive tantrum I had as a kid, bend me into the Catholic to get me in. And yet, you know, when my child has a tantrum, you know, that's, that's intense, that's full on. And I had to try to remember how I felt to be able to have compassion for him and kids. To do that with me, it's a good reminder, isn't it? Because sometimes I think we expect so much of our little people, like we just think because I'm an adult, I expect my child to be in this world and engage in the same level. And we forget, you know, their brains are literally wired different to ours, you know, the, the certain parts of their brains haven't, you know, finished developing to, I don't know, till you're 21 or something, you know, like, it's massive. But yet, we just expect, like, perfect reminder for me, is like, I want my children to sit at the table and make their tea for do you think they will? Well, no one ever while the other one's not too bad. But it's like fiddle with every single thing that's on the table, try and hop off the chair 20 times. And so in the end, I just gave up but it's like, I don't, I don't want to experience this. This aggravation or this conflict at tea time. So now, the two of us sit together and have our tea watching the telly usually, and the other to sit up there and have a chat. And it's like, it works for us. And I hear these people say, Oh, we always sit around the table and have dinner together. I'm thinking, geez, you mustn't glue your children to the chair, or your children are not like my children, you know, and just except that, because when I was a kid, jeez, if we didn't sit at the table, you know, you know, we sat at that table, then I just accept, like, like he said, before any point, just acceptance, you know, and things don't always have to be perfect. And the way that, you know, we think they have to be. Yeah. And I think also it's a really good point is that sometimes we just have to recognize how much is unacceptable and how much have we just conditioned to think is unacceptable. And so the fact that you've gone with your gut instinct, and chewed into your child rather than thinking, Oh, this is how I should do it, because I got caught up in a lot of shirts because I had lots of friends with what seemed like perfect kids and doing everything in a different way. So I had to stop thinking that maybe there was something wrong with my kiddos just see these different and stop comparing myself to other parents or comparing to how I was, or even just the social conditioning rehab on what how kids should be. Yeah, that's a big one. That's something I've had to work hard on, I think. And also social media hasn't really helped that because you get to see, well, it's not really people's lives, it's the idea of the part of people's lives, they want you to see that, you know, it's like, oh, you should be doing this. And you should be doing that. And as a mother, you know, that's just like a minefield, find amazing people to follow, you just got to find the right people. Like, you've got to follow disability advocates like the two Ps, those two mums that talk about parenting and kids with disabilities for such no gravitas and humor at the same time. And so you just got to find your tribe, comparing yourself to other people that aren't like you. And that was exactly for me, as soon as I tapped into other communities. These are my people this is, yeah, that's really good. Before I move off of wild things in until the other book I want to talk about, I want to try and link this in, in my podcasts, I like to talk to my moms about the concept of mom guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because often I'll get a mom who just tells me, they don't even know what it is. And I had to google it. And I think that's wonderful. You know, like, it's, you know, everyone experiences things different and guilty or not guilty is one of those things. And I noticed in your book a lot, and you did talk before how you can be really hard on yourself. Is has that been a challenge for you? To not hold on to things? And yeah, you know, usually so and look, I think, I think the very first drafts that I wrote on my book, I just used as a blur as a cathartic experience to get out all the angst and all the guilt. And then I tried to pull it back more and more because it can become self indulgent, you know, and I felt like, Okay, now I've got it all out. This feels like my diary here. But now what's useful for other people? Is it still beating myself up? Is it saying what a bad person I am, you know, potentially what we can do for each other as my mother's is let each other off the hook, you know, you know, being open and saying, Yeah, this is where I messed up. You know what, that's just because I'm human. And so I think part of writing this book was also letting myself off the hook coming through that guilt. That I think so many mothers hold, potentially father's too, I haven't spoken to them to the same extent about that. But I, but I think we need to do ourselves a favor and just let each other off the hook and stop showing each other up and, you know, openly laughing about the things we get wrong and supporting each other when it's hard. I think that's building the tribe and the community and recognizing that, you know, we're really just doing the best we can. Yeah, absolutely. Because I actually think that women and mothers are really bad at doing that to each other, like we do it to each other a lot. And then we don't want it done to us. So I think if we could just stop doing it, it would be wonderful. But you can do that even in a conversation. Like I remember, in conversations I because I feel like I'm trying to be aware, I think self awareness is the biggest step. And you know, I would find myself in a group of other mothers maybe criticizing somebody or something. But we can be the person that just says, You know what, I do that too, or actually, you know, maybe she's having a bad day or whatever. And, you know, we can arrest that even if it does feel like a bonding thing at the time. It's not a really healthy thing to bond over. We can find other things to bond over. Yes, that's true. That's well said yes. The other book that you've recently released is with Eliza Holt, and you've mentioned Eliza and I'm having the lion's share on the podcast in a few weeks too, so I'm really excited about that. It's called come over to my house and can you share with us rather than me tell people you share again, in your own words, what was behind this book and how you came to be involved in the book as well? So I met Eliza through another one of your interviewees, Rachel power, who was A wonderful friend. And she interviewed me for the first edition of her book. The I think I don't know what the most recent one is. But it used to be called the divided heart. I think it's now the art of motherhood or something like that. Anyway, exactly what you're doing just finding other artists, mothers, how are you possibly doing this thing and actually having an artistic practice at the same time? Incredible book, and I give it to everybody who's a practicing artist, mother. It's a brilliant book. It is. It's a wonderful book, if you haven't read it, read it. In fact, to be shouted at it every episode because she's queen. And so she and I were on a panel with another couple of artist mothers. and Eliza Hall was in the audience. So it was years and years ago, before she even became a mother, I think she was thinking of becoming a mother. And she contacted me out of the blue, and we just started corresponding. And we became friends. She's an extraordinary musician, I downloaded one of her albums, and I had it on rotation in my car all day, every day for years, I think. And so, by absolute coincidence, after a few years, we both ended up in this mate, same small country town. So I was still living in Melbourne, but I had a bush block, just outside of Castlemaine in central Victoria. And she had not long ago moved to Castlemaine herself. So we just kept reconnecting because I really liked her she really liked me. And she had brought actually contributed a piece for the book, edited by Calif in late growing up disabled in Australia. And she also edited a book on parenting parents with disabilities and the challenges and the triumphs that many of these parents are happy to share. And she said that she had been thinking about writing a book for children, but it's wasn't an area that she was very familiar with, when I come on board with her. And being such a big fan of hers, I said, Yeah, of course, you know, I'd love to. And she is the person I credit to helping me understand how disability doesn't have to be a dirty word. So disability, if somebody owns that word with pride, just like indigenous and African American people are earning the word black with pride, or potentially pride with pride, with pride, then then, it becomes something that takes away the stigma around that word. So a lot of active self advocating people within the disability community will use that word, as a way of saying, there's nothing wrong with me, this is who I am, this is my community. But unless you create an accessible world, I'm not going to be able to be my reach my full potential. And she proposed that potentially, my son was also disabled by his environment, because if he was able to learn in a particular way, but the school wasn't able to support the way that he learned that he was also disabled. So that just blew my mind. He claimed that social disability. So we workshop, the idea of doing a picture book together, we're what the aim of it is to normalize disability, we just happened to be invited into I think, I can't remember now seven children's homes, the child might have a disability or the parent might have a disability, some things are done a little bit differently. Some things we do the same. But really, it's about just taking away the stigma around that word, opening us up into the world of these extraordinarily creative people who live with disability, and inviting into their homes. So there was a book I grew up reading in the 70s, by Dr. Seuss, called come over to my house. And it was, I remember, I loved it as a child, I read it again and again. And we were invited into all these homes of people who lived in different countries around the world than, you know, Japan, or India or whatever. Everybody had a slightly different house ate slightly different food, but they all like to play the same kind of games. So we've aimed to do the same thing with this book, we're inviting into these times. There'll be some similarities, some differences. But you know, there's nothing scary about it. Talk about talk about the similarities and the differences and normalize and D stigmatize those words, that fear is the thing I think it's people don't know what to say they don't know. I think what you've written in the beginning of your book about how people with disabilities like to be referred to whether I've got a disability, I'm a person with a disability. Now, I think we're scared of offending people or saying the wrong thing. And it's like, if we talk to people, if we talk to each other, and we say, How do you like to be referred to you? What would you like me to call you and lots and lots of listening? And that's where we do have access to extraordinary stories and people via social media, people who weren't able to access platforms to be heard before. And so you can politely ask if you can follow an activist on social media you know, Callie villa is a very outspoken activist that speaks very, very confidently in the area of disability and so there's lots to Learn from the stuff. That's just undoing all the conditioning that we've had growing up and understanding how, you know what, what the world is like for people that don't live with the same kind of privilege we do. And the best way we can understand that is just lots lots of listening. And there's a lot of amazing people to follow online that you can learn heaps from. We can all educate ourselves, it's you know, and, you know, that's where there is a delicate balance. Because, you know, there will be people that will say, well, it's not for us to carry the weight of having to educate everybody, you know, we don't want every single person coming up to us and asking, you know, how to lose your leg or whatever. So we're hoping this picture book for children is that it starts communication starts conversation, sorry, around different forms of disabilities. And also, the kinds of questions we can ask because children are genuinely interested, curious and naive. And so we can have these conversations and we can say our Do you know, do you think that men will feel comfortable with you just staring at him all the time? You know, how would you feel if you were invited to a party and you couldn't get in because your wheelchair couldn't get over the step in the playground or, you know, actually creating empathy, compassion, and the more we can hear the stories from people themselves, rather than people like me talking on their behalf. More important that is, and that's why of course, it's fantastic. You've got Eliza on your program, because I'm looking forward to that God. And she's a wonderful person. Yeah. And I Yeah, music like, I don't know how I didn't know. She also was a singer and a songwriter. And like, wow, she's amazing. Yeah. So if you're listening alive, so looking forward to chatting with you? So I want to go back to you, as a mum, do you feel like you want your children to see you, as Sally that does all these things, and you're not just their mom, and I'm putting that in air quotes, because you're never just a mom. But you know that your children see that you've got all these other elements to then the caring role, the mothering role? Yeah, I think that's really important. And in the years where I did carry a lot more guilt than I allow myself to now, I used to worry a lot about working a lot, because I worked really, really, really hard. And so often I might be away on tour, or I might have to, after dinner, go back into the studio to work or, and would sometimes mean that I'd missed some school things or, you know, and then I would feel bad about that. But I think all my working mothers can relate to that. But I guess what I hoped is that what I'm role modeling is that if they have a female partner in the future, there won't be an assumption that it just falls on one person to do the domestic labor or the childcare, that I can model what it's like to be an independent person in the world. I've always been financially independent, I've always, you know, worked really hard to forge a career for myself. And so even though I have sons, not daughters, I think it's as important to role model that for them, as it would be if I had daughters, and they're really proud of me now, you know, my oldest son's 29 Oh, my, oh, actually, not all my sons, my two oldest sons. In the creative arts, so the oldest one is interested in writing and filmmaking. The middle one is a visual artist, along with a million other things. My youngest son's into math, so I'm not quite sure how to connect. i That's pretty creative, too. But, you know, what they've seen is that you can be loving, you can be nurturing, you can be dedicated to your children, and you can also have space for yourself. And that's actually what it is to be a whole healthy human in the world. You know, nobody should have to completely sacrifice themselves for anybody else. That's not healthy. You know, we can be full people in the world and also be amazing parents as well. And so I just feel like I had to role model that to my kids, and get over that angst that I would carry about not being there at every assembly. Being really terrible at baking cakes. I'm just and that's okay. Yeah, exactly. And I was always good on You mentioned briefly earlier how that your son Sam inspired you to write a couple of the series is that your that you've written? Can you tell us a little bit more about that. So before Sam, it became clear that Sam was struggling to read, I wrote the kind of books I like to read as a child, so sophisticated, you know, plots, dense texts, you know, elaborate vocabulary, all of those things, because I was a very good reader. And I found reading easy and accessible. So they're the kind of books I set out to write, partly from my own ego as well, because I wanted to show off what a good rider so those weren't ever going to be books that Sam was going to be able to access. So and I call him Sam, he's not really called Sam. But for the purposes of the book and all the publicity, he said, yep. And to give him some privacy. And so the only books that he was able to read, we're the school readers, and they serve a very important purpose. They are there to teach kids to read, but they often don't have storylines or character development. And they're often a bit boring. I thought, the challenge for me would be to create books that would use that kind of language and vocabulary and sentence structure, but actually have proper character development and plots and so forth. And I tested them all out on them. So I would watch him. And if I lost his attention, I would short nerd or I would speed up the story or whatever. So they're all road tested with past him. And then because those books reach so many kids, what that message very strongly sent to me was, there are a lot of kids out there, like Sam, who may not be dyslexic, but just may find reading really hard. So everything I've written from then on has been for those kinds of kids, because not many other people are doing, I think there's a lot of humor around for kids. There's a lot of kind of cartoon comic books for kids, and they are really, really important too. But to explore something that goes into an emotional terrain, or perhaps, perhaps stories of friendships, it's hard to find those in a lot of the really, really fast paced accessible books for kids. So I try to do that and everything I write, to make sure that it works on lots of levels. So the poly investor series, for example, can be read on the surface as a story about rich and the monster playground story. But the further you go into it, and the more you want to explore it with a child, the more you can see that it's actually a story about apartheid. You know, it's potentially a story about the Trump era story about racism, you know, depending on how deep you want to go with your child. But I trust that children want complex stories, they may not be able to access them with their reading skills, but they have extraordinary minds. I mean, I remember, the Think of that I was as a child, that's the one skill that I've been able to hone throughout writing for children is that I can transport myself back to a six year old really easily. And I remember how I thought how I felt. And it's not less than we do now. It's not as sophisticated. But if anything, I think I felt things even more keenly as a child than I do now. And so I don't want to write down to them, but I do want them to have something they can access for themselves. Hmm, yeah, that's really thoughtful. That's really cool. That's very clever to to be able to write like that. And also, because your first will not actually your first book, but the book when about being China, about that was written for like, you know, the young adults, and then you can write for little people, two sets, and you've written for adults as well, like, that's very versatile. It's, well, you can play instruments, and I can't do that. Oh, I tell you what, I hold musicians as the top talent, as far as I'm concerned, as far as out of scope, because it's like musicians can hold a world in their heads. It's not just words, but it's all these different sounds that come together to create one sound. And for me, that is just like the epitome of creativity. It's I'd never thought of it that way. It's probably what I get so distracted. Oh, that's funny. I've always found this fascinating. And I have had many conversations with teachers over the years about how, how do we actually learn to read write. And I didn't actually really know there were these two clear different sort of forces of opinion working against each other. About, I always wondered whether you actually, like, picked up each letter and sanded down each letter. And that was how you got it, or whether you just recognize almost like, Hey, you recognize logos or symbols that you just remembered. That's how that word looks. And it was fascinating. When you write in the book that even now when we read, as adults, like fluent readers, we're still doing that, almost like the phonics way. In a while we're reading and I thought, gee, that's interesting. So rather than again, maybe try and explain, could you share some intelligent thoughts. So, so one of the amazing things that came up in some of my early research, and this sounds like such a simple thing, but it is actually mind blowing, is that while we are our brains, while we are born with brains that have the capacity for oral language, that is, while we're inside the womb, we are actually learning the tone. And we're learning we're developing the skills to be able to speak just from listening to our mother's mother speaking. So we have a French speaking mother will be attuned to Frenchmen were born, bilingual parents, children, attune to two languages, and so on. So we were born with the brains that have the capacity to be able to use our language, because our language is 100,000 years old. Written language, however, is only five and a half 1000 years old. So we actually don't have a space in our brain when we're born, that is set up for reading. So we have to actually rewire a part of our brain to be able to be a skilled to read and fluent reader. So the way that this is done is that part of the brain that is used for visual processing combines with another part that's used with oral and this is a very, very simple way of just describing very dense neuroscience. But essentially, it's recycled. So that we create what this very famous French professor has called the letterbox His name is Stanislas de Haan, you can find his talks online, He's extraordinary. We can now look inside brains because of neuroscience and see what's happening as we acquire reading skills. And so that's how they've been able to actually scientifically prove what happens in the brain when we learn to read. So before we were able to do that, like you say, there was a couple of schools of thought about how it might be that we acquire reading and one of them was the whole word approach that we do. We see a word like an image and we store it, and that then is retained and retrieved when we need that word. But we now know that in fact, what we're doing painstakingly as a child, is breaking words down into a code sounding out all the little pieces of the word. So pH sounds like, you know that oh can sound a few different ways. And so we do that painstakingly as a child, but the more we practice that the more that wiring happens in our brain, so it becomes automatic. But if we're not taught those skills, which the broad umbrella comes under the umbrella of phonics, but it's also thought of as decoding where we actually break the word down together to create meaning, then we can potentially get by for a while, because for a while, there will be certain words that we can recognize up to a certain extent, or we can guess by using the cues in the book by looking at the pictures. But once we get to that grade three, that's when we when you actually see that kids who haven't acquired those reading skills, really plateau and flounder, and that's what happened with my son. So some kids will seem to pick it up naturally or by osmosis by not being taught to decode, but some kids won't. So the the people who argue for teaching phonics from early on, the argument is that while some kids will manage to learn to read, just by doing some guessing and managing to create some kind of reading skills on their own without being specifically taught, there'll be many that aren't. So this is a way that guarantees that all kids will be taught to read. Now if you're dyslexic, you may need extra support and extra practice outside of the classroom, same skills, but you can you may need up to four times the amount of practice than a non dyslexic, but even Dyslexics can be taught to read if they're taught with this very systematic phonics instruction. So somehow it's you know, I didn't have a stake on either side and you know, Think about it or read the brain science. And it really just comes out time and time again, for people who know this stuff. I'm just sharing what I've learned that that is the way that we can guarantee that kids won't fall through the cracks. And somehow there are still arguments about it. But for me, you know, this might be controversial. It feels like listening to flat Earth as argue now, yes, there was a time, we couldn't know if the earth was round. But now we know what happens in the brain as we learn to read. And the best practice of teaching it, we just don't need to get on board. That's it will go through school like my Sam did without learning how to read and everything will fall apart there. So we're in a transition phase, there's a lot of extraordinary mothers that are lobbying to have screening done really early on to be able to pick out kids that are struggling to read, they're out, unfortunately, becomes political. But there are, you know, there are lots of people now who are advocating to have one form of teaching Trump taught across the board to ensure that all kids are taught to read, having said that, the argument against phonics is that people will say, Oh, it's boring, it's dull. It's like what was done in the 1950s. And it'll turn kids off reading. Yeah, it can seem a little bit boring and dull, like learning, you know, the notes for piano, for example, in the very early days, that can seem pretty boring. But meanwhile, you're playing music to them. So they're thinking, oh, one day, I'll be able to do that. So of course, while kids are learning to decode by using this explicit systematic phonics instruction, you read them beautiful literature, so they know what they're going to be able to access once they develop those skills for themselves. And that's what parents can do at home. So the worst thing that any parent can be told now, I realize is that if you read your to your child enough, they will just pick up reading, because that is awful for a parent that's done everything right to here, and their child still doesn't read. So they need to be taught. And you can support that at home by reading to them from birth, but it's not your responsibility to teach them. Yeah, that's it. And then it takes out that that horrible sort of the guilt ridden pneus that a lot of us moms feel when it's like, what did we do wrong? I thought we did what everyone said to do, you know, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And it was interesting in the book to those example, those couple of examples around that phonics was a I can't think of the exact time period. But in America, at one point, they completely changed how they were teaching it my saying this right, and then all of a sudden, the decline, like was measurable of because they changed how they were teaching. Sorry, can you make sense of that? Yeah, lots of those texts coming out. Lots of those stats are coming out now about, you know, people are looking for all different reasons as to why we have a society that reads less of that kids are getting to the end of primary school and not being able to have basic literacy skills. There are lots of speculation around that. But all the research is showing that a lot of it is just because they haven't been explicitly taught. So I do give examples in the book of some schools that have changed the whole teaching program around and gone from the lowest rung of the NAPLAN results in reading to the top rep. And these are in disadvantaged areas and not ones that are getting tutoring outside school. So it's also a way that we can ensure that it's not just the kids that grow up in educated, privileged, financially secure households, like my son get the support they need. But all kids even in non English speaking background, in apartments, where maybe they're sharing one computer amongst, you know, five kids, or, you know, every child needs to be able to given the same stat in life. That's what our public education system is about. And so the only way to ensure that all kids can access literacy skills that they're going to need is by teaching them in this specific way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good job. And I'm doing it on behalf of other people, because obviously, I can't know if Sam would have been a fluent reader had he been taught differently. You know, it's not a sliding door situation. I can't go back and do it all again. But from every single expert I've spoken to and all the research has come out and all the books I've read. It points to that. Yep. There's a quote in there by Astrid Lindgren, who's an extraordinary Swedish writer, she was extraordinarily successful in her time. And she just has this beautiful quote that I put in the back of the book that give your children love, more love, and more love, and the rest will come. And I think, you know, it can be easy to project, our idea of success on our kids or who we think our kids should be. But I think in the end, if they can go through life, knowing that someone just loves them completely for who they are, that's about the best thing you can do for them. And I think that's the most important thing I tried to instill in my son is if he's a good and worthy person, no matter what he chooses to do with his life. Yeah, that's lovely. That's beautiful. And I'm going to add a quote to that. I can't remember who said it in the book, but it said, trust your kids, they will show themselves to you and be ready to love who you say. I thought that was a really good one. That was you that said, bravo to you. Well done. Well, thank you so much, Sally. It's been such a joy chatting to you. And thank you for sharing your story and your son's story. And yeah, being a part of of the chat today. It's been lovely. It's been really nice chatting with you. I feel like we could probably go on for hours. We probably have to break out the wine soon. All right, cyanide. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with a Nazi stick mum

Ayla Simone Australian fiction author S3 Ep85 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Ayla Simone is my guest this week, Ayla is a contemporary fiction author and digital copywriter and a mum of 2 from Brisbane , QLD, Australia. Ayla grew up writing, but like many creatives, couldn't see how writing was going to be full time job. She turned instead to marketing, content creation and copywriting to utilize her creativity. She began writing her debut novel Marigold Milk when her her son was a baby, he was a contact napper and she would write while he was napping on her lap, using her phone to write. Marigold Milk drops the reader into a tumultuous and trans-formative time of Mariella Gold’s life. Grief-stricken by the loss of a child, Mariella loses her floristry business and applies for a nannying position with a twist. The unusual and lucrative role sees her helping care for the baby of widowed local doctor, Dr Jamie North. The job is a welcome escape from the despair of her lifeless marriage, but Mariella is surprised to even find joy and purpose with Jamie and his son, in a way she couldn’t have expected. Ayla has 2 more books in the works and her work aims to examine themes of modern life that are often silenced within us; with a particular focus on women and motherhood. **This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss and wet nursing** Ayla - instgram / book Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered, while trying to be a mum and continue to create your hair themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never ceded. Thank you so much for joining me. It is a pleasure to have you here from wherever you are all around the world. My guest today is ala Simone. ALA is a contemporary fiction author and digital copywriter from Brisbane in Queensland, and she's a mom of two. I grew up writing but like many creatives couldn't see her writing was going to be a full time job. She turned instead to marketing, content creation and copywriting to utilize her creativity. I began writing her debut novel marigold milk when her son was a baby. He was a contact Napper and she would write while he was napping on her lap using her fine marigold milk drops the reader into a tumultuous and transformative time have Mariela gold's life. grief stricken by the loss of a child, Mariela loses her floristry business and applies for a nanny position with a twist. The unusual and lucrative role sees her helping to care for the baby of a widowed local doctor. The job is a welcome escape from the despair of her lifeless marriage, and she is surprised to find joy and purpose with the new doctor and his son. In a way she could never have expected. Ayla has two more books in the works. And her work aims to examine themes of modern life that are often silenced within us, and a particular focus on women and motherhood. This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss and witnessing. Hi, Isla, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's such a pleasure to welcome you today. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. So we're about to you leaving. I'm in Brisbane in the suburbs. Lovely. Yeah. My sister spent a bit of time up in Brisbane few years ago, and we went to visit it the first time I'd ever been up there. I just loved it. It reminded me of like, be like Adelaide with it sort of easygoing, but the weather being a lot better. I just found everyone was so friendly. And it's just a really lovely place. It is quite like a small town. Most of my family's in Melbourne. So going to Melbourne. It's like wow, this is a big city. Brisbane, you probably feel similar seems Adelaide. It's more laid back. Yeah. Very hot out here though. Yeah. Now and because you guys don't have daylight savings. Do you know? Yeah, because that was something I noticed when I was up there. How it got early. So like got bright and light so early. And it was just that okay, we're up. Yeah. On the flip side, you go to some of these daylight savings and the kids don't want to go to sleep until like nine or 10 o'clock because it's bright. Yes. That's that's us at the moment. It's like half past eight. Oh, maybe even caught nine before it gets dark. So they're just like, but it's too late outside. We don't know like I've got nothing left. You have to do it. Yeah, that was literally my last night because the bubblegum back to school today. Down here. So last night, the day please just go to sleep. I see a great day for you that it's a wonderful day is such a nice day. It's just nice to have done the school drop off and then just go do something that doesn't involve looking after other people. And the silence when you leave them and it's like I don't have to talk to anyone for a little while. Yes. Gosh, yeah, you take it for granted. You really do. Yeah, yeah. You're an author, can you tell us a little bit about how you got into writing? Is it something that you've always done? Like as a kid growing up? Yeah, writing has always sort of been my thing, I guess I remember in primary school, going to little writing camps. And in high school, I was in, you know, the kind of extension English writing thing. And that was my thing. Like, I could not do math to save my life at all. Writing has been, it's like, probably close. Next, I was like, Oh, I can do this. Yeah, and I've always loved writing, I always wanted to write a book. Yeah, and I've just finally now done it, I think some probably other people in the arts can relate to this, you have an interest in something creative. And growing up, there's a lot of noise around, okay, but you've got to kind of make that a job where you can actually make a living, you know, for the kind of consumer society you can't, you know, you can't cut off into the woods and write a book. Like, that's not what you're going to do. So yeah, I've done marketing and content creation and copywriting. So I guess that's how I kind of made it a job. And then, yeah, recently got to what I wanted to do originally, which is writing a book, congratulations. That's pretty exciting. Yeah, that that theme of, of sort of putting your passion on the back burner, or like, in your case, in many others, to finding a way to sort of slightly incorporate that into their, like, paid job. It's such a common theme, just, you know, parents will be like, oh, you know, how you're gonna pay the bills, you know, that's not a real job, all that sort of stuff. And then they find themselves coming back to it, you know, as an adult, because you just cannot you get to where we cannot not do it, you know, it's like, yeah, it just makes you do it. So, tell us about your book. Well, my food, I feel like this is a common theme with authors. Or it might just be me because I'm a shy author. But when someone asks, What's your book about? That's like the worst question. Oh, amazing. Like hard to condense? Yeah, probably. So in like internal. But basically, it's about a main character. And she's just lost a baby. And then she's lost her business, and her husband of 10 years has turned on her and become a really awful person in her life. So she's desperate to find a purpose. And she decides that she wants to donate her breast milk online after hearing about it from a friend. And then she meets with a widowed man who's just lost his wife. So he has a baby to feed, and he's desperate for help as well. And he asked her to fulfill the quite unusual position these days of being a witness for his baby. And the reason behind that is the baby has a lot of allergies, and he's really struggling, you know, to find something that will help his baby be healthy. So she's sort of propelled by her grief and wanting to escape her household situation, and she accepts it and joins his family. And she starts to find purpose and happiness again, but then sort of the truth of her own motherhood. And what has happened in her past starts to unravel slowly, she has to kind of face her demons and see if she can overcome them to find her own purpose in life again. Yeah, right. That's a really cool storyline, like, Yeah, that's really cool. I don't usual when I started writing it, I, it was kind of the whole point was, you know, I was at home with my baby nursing writing. I was just thinking, I've never read a book, really, where there's a character, even books that have mothers, there's not really a character that mentioned, you know, the breastfeeding the nursing or, you know, feeding the baby. It's not something that's mentioned that often and for me, at least, it's like a huge part of being a mum, like, I mean, no matter how you feed your baby, especially at the start, you're spending hours every day, like feeding your baby, whether it's a bottle, you're breastfeeding them to hear. So I sort of wanted to incorporate that and I started writing it as historical fiction, because, you know, witnesses that was an old time. Yeah, but then I think it was like 20,000 words, then I'll say is this isn't gonna really help Modern mothers like this is, you know, a historical story. But if I was to kind of juxtapose that with modern times, where it actually makes it something a little shocking to some people, I'm sure. I think it has more value for mothers to kind of read it in a modern setting. Yeah, cuz I was gonna ask you sort of what you said. Yeah. And for those who don't know, a witness, basically is it's a mother who's lactating who feeds another mother's child, basically. Yeah. And in my story, I've been very careful to not not to say this. It's not just, I wouldn't even say it's the central theme of the story. And I think that was important. For me, for Mother's reading it, it's not the hero of the story is not that she breastfeeds a child. And it's definitely not the villain of the story. And it doesn't ruin anything for her. It's something very special. And that's highlighted. But yeah, it's not the be all end all, she has so many other facets to her other than that she's feeding a baby. But the fact that her client kind of needed her to do that to help him. But it also very much helped her because she was grieving the loss of a child. You know, if you lose a baby quite late, you may lactate. So this is what's happening to this character. And I think it's just been a huge comfort for her that she could use that milk. For your identity was important for you to keep that writing process going when you had your children. Yes, it definitely. I mean, I write quite a lot in my job. But to have that sort of also, hobby creative writing is so important. And I feel so much better. You know, I've had a bit of time to write, and usually, actually always my writing time, like, in bed with a baby on me writing on Google docs on my phone, how I wrote this book, the whole thing. So you know, it's just fit in somewhere. But then the rest of the afternoon is like, ah, you know, I've done something for myself. Yeah, it can be a better mother for it. Definitely. And I have a, I have a baby, but I also have a seven year old. So it's been pretty cool. telling her about the book and her seeing it and see like, oh my god, I'm gonna write a book. Like she's so excited. So that yeah, that is awesome. That is really cool. Do you sort of feel like it's important that, that your seven year old sees you as something else other than as a mother? You know, you're still you're still a person that does things in the world? Yeah, definitely. And maybe that's why it was even more surprising to her. I sort of said to her while I was writing it, like, oh, I mean, writing this story. I think I might actually get it published into a book. And it's that sort of an abstract idea or seminar or like, What do you mean? Like, you know, not Roald Dahl. You can't write a book. And then when it arrived nice, she showed her Yeah, cuz you're gonna face like, wow, my mom like does stuff other than look after us? Yeah. Yeah. Especially for a little girl. Like, I don't want her to think she'll have kids one day. And that's it, like hanging off your cowboy boots. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Other aspects to a woman obviously. Didn't know that. That's really cool. I love that. And I sort of feel like that with my sons. It's like, it's for them as they grow up to be able to respect a woman as other things apart from just having children. You know, like, I feel like there's, there's certainly a, you know, that misogynistic sort of element to society that, you know, like you said, you take a few breaks, you're done. Yeah, it's really important. Yeah, absolutely. So How old's your youngest? He's 16 months. So he actually a toddler is probably my last one. So it's me. He's a baby. Yeah, love. So when did you start writing when just when he was really, when he was really a baby? Both my kids have been contacted snafus. So, you know, stuck in bed for hours. And I think he was just a few months old me scrolling Facebook, whatever. It's like why why don't I do something that's actually going to benefit my mental health and you know, if I can turn into something my future So yeah, I just started writing the story and I just loved it and every naptime occasionally after bedtime, that's just what I've done. Yeah. That's awesome. So sorry, I didn't say the book's title. It's Marik old milk. So I'm guessing marigold is the main character. Her name is Mariela gold. Right? Yeah, that's very gold comes up because she had a floristry business that gets shut down. And one of the other characters says to her, Oh, like, Why didn't you call it you know, something like marry gold, because your name makes up Mary gold. And that's sort of a pivotal moment. And then after that, marigolds kind of pop up through the story as symbolism for how her story is unfolding. So yeah, let's go. How did you come up with the idea? Was that just something that came to you? Or are you like, are you really into flowers and flowers? And I love symbolism. So I think it didn't come quite organically. I wrote her in as a florist. I think I've always been fascinated by forestry. Like, it's just such a beautiful art to work in. Yeah. And then as kind of the marigold play on words came up, it all just started unfolding. And I've planned out my next few books, and they're both flower related as well. Sort of like the same, the next two books? I mean, I don't want you to give any secrets away. Are they an extension of marigold story? Are they just brand new characters? Well, I didn't want to write a sequel. I'm not sure why I just prefer a standalone story. And it is quite closed books. And when it finishes, it's kind of like, okay, this story is done nice and late, really tied up. But I have made the next few books have a slight overlap in characters. So there's sort of like a very sideline character in Marigold, milk. And then the next book is her story. So they sort of mentioned each other, which I think is a cute little tie in. But that I mean, the stories are not related at all. The next book is actually got nothing to do with motherhood, or babies or anything, which has actually been really fun. It's like, oh, this is really an escape. I'm writing like a 30 Something single spinster with a cat and like I'm on it. Anything. It's sort of like you're living in this universe, what could have happened? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was. What's it like the process to get a book published? Well, I mean, it's different for everyone, there is the traditional publishing route, which I dabbled with. And then I think I read so much about it from other authors. I was just scared out of it. And it might be something I pursue in the future. But it's a very lengthy process, you've kind of got to find an agent. And then once you've got an agent, they contact the publishing houses and then even if you do get a deal, you usually have to wait like two or three years before your book is actually out there. Yeah, and I think because I spent just like day after day, hours and hours writing this book, when it was finished, I was like, No, I'm getting this out there. This on me anymore. I need to get it done so I can move on to the next thing. No, I ended up self publishing my book which has been really interesting and exciting thing. Yesterday it's amazing how accessible it is to publish a book now. Yeah, quite simple. This we have this topic that I love to talk about to all my guests and I put it in air quotes, the old mum guilt. What is your take on that? I do remember after I had my first baby, another mum made a throwaway comment something like Oh, yes, you'll you know, you'll have mom guilt. It's always they're always going to feel guilty, you know, doing anything, right. And I remember at the time, my baby was about six months old, and I was I really couldn't relate to what she was saying. Maybe just the naivety of it. You know, as kind of like, I know, I'm doing everything I can for this baby. I don't feel guilty. Everything's great. But sort of since I've had the second and it might be about you There's more of a juggle, because you know, especially with the age gap, I have this seven year old that wants to chat all day and make bracelets and little intricate things. And then I have this 16 month old boys just destroying everything. And I yeah, I have definitely found now a bit of mum guilt. This is like, there's not enough of you to go around at all. But I wouldn't say ever feel guilty about writing or doing things like that for myself. And it might be because it's so limited. Like, you know, I'm not going down to get a pedicure. And you know, I haven't much time. And that's my little bit of time that I do that. So I think I feel pretty good about it. Now good on Yeah, I love hearing those answers. And it's the sort of thing, everybody has a different take on it. And I think that's why I love talking about it, because I just love hearing, you know, the differences in the variances and yeah, I love that I had, I think I've had two guests that didn't even know what it was at all. And as the hell no, I can relate to that. They is sort of the age gap. You have to I've got seven years between my two. And they have their moments they they fight like cats and dogs sometimes. Yeah, they both have cute moments. They don't they? Ah, yeah. is lovely to watch it really? Yeah. I think it's nice having a child that's old enough to remember their sibling getting born and things like that. I reckon that's pretty cool is lovely. Although I don't know about your children, but my older child remembers being an only child. So she's sort of like, she brings me photos of us just my her dad and I and her together on holidays. She's like, so can we leave Leo somewhere? And like do that again? Probably not like his duty a little brother. Oh, God. That's hilarious. I love that. Yeah, that's good. I've never actually thought about that. I should ask I'll make a note to ask at least. Yeah. Yeah, it's good fun. So something else I'd like to talk about is sort of the cultural norms of, you know, the traditional roles of the mother and the father and who goes to work and who stays home? And what role modeling did you have about what a mother could look like when you were growing up? Didn't sort of inspired you to do what you're doing? Well, I would say my family unit when I was growing up is quite different to probably what my now family unit is in that it was very traditional. So my mum was basically home with us, I think, till I started primary school. So we very much had, like the mother at home and the dad, you know, that went to work. And my mom was just excellent at being you know, a stay at home mom is baking and cooking and my memory always seem to be cheery and happy to play with us, which is a hard thing to aim for. Yeah, whereas it might be a little bit because of what my job is like, I know I can do my job on my phone or on my laptop home anywhere. With both kids. I've gone back into some kind of from home work within six months to a year of having them. So although I am staying at home, just like my mom did, I think yeah, I'm I don't have the mental space to be like babe. Yeah, if anything. Yeah, I wish I was a bit more like my mum. But I think the times have very different now. You can't really you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't now, basically, you know, if I was staying at home not working, I'm sure someone would have something to say about that. Or if I was working full time putting the kids in daycare, you know, that would also be mortifying for some people. So yes, just trying to strike a balance in these crazy modern times, isn't it? Yeah, I think yeah, we're all just doing the best we can out we like have no there's so much. I think that's where a lot of people do feel the mum guilt is like the judgment of others that someone's comment will make you feel bad about yourself. But you know, deep down like you said before, about you know, you you know you're doing the best you can you know, you you're giving your children everything you can. So it's these sort of offhand flippant remarks, and really make us question ourselves and it's like social media makes it even worse when you see your people doing whatever and you think, oh, I should be doing that or I shouldn't be doing that or whatever. You know that Yeah, should Africa. Yeah. And that's a big part of, I guess why I wanted to include a little like reality about motherhood and breastfeeding, that sort of thing in my book, because also similar with that breastfeeding, sort of damned if you do damned if you don't, as well, you know, as a mother, you might feel so ashamed to try to breastfeed your kid in public. But then you'll be, like, equally ashamed to go and buy it in a formula. There's no winning in our society, you can't do the right thing. So yeah, I just wanted I guess, to include a little reality where kind of bubbles under the surface of the rest of her story. And it's not the be all end all, but it's quite, I would say, it's quite realistic for the story, which I think is helpful for young women because, like, I'm a 90s, baby my, like growing up seeing moms in media, it was like Rachel on friends. Yeah. Babies represented like they would come into the apartment and just look at this baby sleeping in the cot by itself and like, Oh, that's a cute baby. Like, that is so not what happened for me, baby. Well, why wasn't Rachel contact? Nothing? Or like having vomit all over her? Like, where was your reality? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I'm having my first baby. I just was so oblivious. I had no idea what to expect. So, yes, a bit of reality, I think is nice. Yes, I can relate to that. It's like you see people with babies and you hear you hear stories and and you just have no, you really have no idea, do you? Like even if someone tells you, you don't really even listen, because you're just not even in that headspace. Like, you just don't take it in. And that's probably how human race continues to reproduce. If you really took it in and you knew what it would be like, you might not want to do that. That's just surgery. Want to ask you just you just piqued my interest with something with marigold in the book. Does she copy any flack from other characters in the book about her choice to be the witness? Yes. So she does not actually tell her husband, her husband and her have quite a toxic relationship. So she's sort of jumped at the opportunity to move in with this doctor to help his child. But she tells her husband, she's just a live in nanny, because she knows he would be, you know, really weirded out by that. And within the actual household that she moves into. He also has a sort of housekeeper that helps with cooking and stuff while he works. And she's very judgmental of marigolds. So she's, you know, sort of like, you're getting paid, you know, this obscene amount of money to lay around breastfeeding a baby. So she thinks it's just ridiculous and thinks they should have tried harder to find the right formula and all this sort of thing. So yeah, she definitely faces quite a lot of backlash. And also sort of she has an inner dialogue going, this is just bizarre, like, what am I doing? I've just lost a baby. And now I'm in someone else's house, breastfeeding their baby who's pretty much the same age as what her baby would have been at that point. So yeah, it's a very conflicting position she's in. Yeah, that would be Yeah, like she she would she'd just think this is really weird. What am I doing and made me feel really uncomfortable physically about doing it, but then at the same time, it would just give us so much. I don't know, comfort, I guess. But at the same time, could be also then. A bit weird to that she's imagining it's her own child. I don't know. There's so many. Yeah, there, isn't it? Yeah, there are definitely little moments like that. And it's been so touching. I've had a few reviews from mothers that have read it. And you know, I've had one who is breastfeeding, I believe her toddler. And she was just like, oh my gosh, I feel so seen like, I've never read a book where that you actually, you know, the actual latching on and everything like you actually know what the baby's doing. I've never read that. And I was like, that's amazing. And I had another review, which just made me cry or mother that has two healthy kids, but she lost a baby in between them. And she was just, you know, so thankful that I included that in the story and I've been careful not to. I guess I didn't delve too deeply into it because I haven't experienced it myself. So I was really hesitant to go far into one What happened, you know, kind of doesn't really say exactly what happened. It's really in the background. But I have tried really hard to include, you know, the emotions of what she's gone through. And the most important part for me was giving her a story where she finds purpose again, she finds happiness. And although you know, the pain of that will never go away. She does continue on in her life, which hopefully is comforting for people. Because it's such such a common thing that women go through. And it's not. Isn't I've never read it in a book personally. So yeah, just think that argument is fantastic. Good. Only fintona? Did you did you feel torn at any stage about not writing it in that way? Would you think that this is I'm doing it like this? I was told there was a little while where I thought, you know, I haven't experienced this. Maybe it's the wrong thing to write about it. You know, maybe she gave her baby up for adoption or something like that. But then I thought, you know, there's, there's a lot more women that can relate to this story. And it would be I think, a lot more helpful for women, if that's just what happens. So just stuck with it. And hopefully, I've done it justice. It sounds like from the from the feedback you've had that's really positive. Well done, that's awesome. So tell us where people can get the book. Yes. So right now it's available on Amazon. So it's available as a Kindle ebook, or it's available as a paperback so you can get either format. And I'm this year, I'm getting it into a few more physical stores in Brisbane, it will be available at a little shop called marigold house coincidentally. So that was a very happy coincidence and that it'll be available from next week there that's in the gap in Brisbane. And then yeah, hopefully a few more physical bookstores as the year goes on, which is exciting. Fantastic. Marigold milk, buy a list of mine on Amazon. Yeah, that's where it is. Awesome. Well, I'll put some hyperlinks in the show notes so people can click away and Oh, great. Awesome. Thank you so much for chatting with me today. It's really lovely. It was lovely. To talk to an adult. It's really it's been a lovely experience for me just to be able to do something about my children. Happy first day of school. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband John. If you'd like to learn more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Simone Wise South Australian visual artist S2 Ep55 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Simone Wise, a visual artist from Adelaide and mother of 2. Simone grew up surrounded by creativity, with 2 creative sisters and a creative mum. They went to the gallery a lot, and she was never really bored as she was always making craft. She studied Art History and considered that as a career path. It wasn't until her early to mid 30s that she took the plunge and went to art school. She was determined to practice and push through in the face of challenges. Simone is heavily influenced by Dutch still life of the 17th century and the works of Turner , and interested in iconography and symbolism. She describes her artistic style as tonal realism style, She is currently studying a Fine Art Course at Adelaide Central School of Art. Today we chat about why we gather certain objects, role modelling perseverance to her son through her art and how Simone's art helped her through the loss of her first son. **This episode contains discussion around stillbirth, grief and mental health*** The Robot painting Follow Simone on instagram Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Me today, it really does mean a lot. My guest this week is Simone wise. Simone is a visual artist from Adelaide in Australia, and is a mum of two. So mine grew up surrounded by creativity with two creative sisters and a creative mum. They went to the gallery a lot, and Simone was never really bored, as she was always making craft. She studied art history and considered that as a career path. It wasn't until her mid 30s That she took the plunge and went to art school. She was determined to practice and push through in the face of challenges. Simone is heavily influenced by Dutch still life of the 17th century and the works of Turner, and she's very interested in iconography and symbolism. She describes her artistic style as tonal realism. She is currently studying your fine art course at Adelaide Central School of Art. This episode contains discussion around stillbirth, grief and mental health. Today we chat about why we gather certain objects role modeling perseverance to her son through her heart, and how Simone's art helped her through the loss of her first son. Music you'll hear today is used with permission from LM Joe, Australian New Age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Welcome to the podcast Simone. It's really lovely to meet you and have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for having me, Allison. I'm really excited to chat about all things creative and being a mom in the world today. It's a pleasure. So we're about to you, based you in Adelaide. Australia. Yep. Yeah, based in Adelaide. I'm born here lived in Queensland for a little bit but mostly been here. All my life. So yeah, yeah. Have you ever been down to make Gambia where I am? I have. Yes. And I've actually my little boy has been asking me to go to Mount Gambia for a while because he's got friends who have been so yeah, but no, I did love it down there. It's Yeah, lovely. Yeah. Don't come in winter. Just stay away. Okay, so yeah, yeah. Wait, did the sun comes back to Yeah. So your visual artists can you share what sort of style your art is? And yeah, okay. Well, I'm I'm two years into a three year Fine Art course at Adelaide Central School of Art. And I specifically chose that school because it has really strong grounding in I guess you'd say the traditional arts foundations. Not everyone who graduates from their works in you know, old fashioned sort of art, but it has a really good foundation in a drawing and painting. And so I guess you'd say I, my paintings have been described as photorealistic. But I don't really like that description to be honest. Because while there's a skill in photo realism, there's not much in terms of interpretation. So I like to think I painting like more of a tonal realist style. And I'm really informed by still life paintings from Dutch 17th century like that real tradition of, you know, like a black background with things like grapes and setups of grapes and lemons and Silver Goblets and things like that. I love the iconography and symbolism and drama, all of all of that. And so I'm very much drawn to really detailed paintings and really detailed drawings. Yes. So, do you work in? I'm gonna ask this question. Now. It's probably a question for later but I was looking on your Instagram, as I do with all my guests. I like to have a bit of a stalk before I do But you you were you painted in? It was oils, but it was on copper. Can you explain what the relevance of that is because I don't know anything about anything. I've done one painting on copper. And it was a bit of an experiment. And I was thrilled that it got chosen to be part of an Art Prize, because I wasn't sure how it would work out. But yeah, traditionally, it's something that's been done quite a lot. But it's been in centuries past that it's been painted, like the board hasn't been able to go through, you get a piece of copper and like etching copper, and you put some just sew something to create the ground and then you paint on it like any other surface, you can paint on. Lots of things. So yeah, I didn't, I don't think I'll get back to it because I found it a little too slippery. But I did love the warmth and depth that comes from the middle, underneath. So yeah, that's cool. Yeah, like I said, I don't know anything I've got, since I've been chatting to people. Through the podcast, I've discovered that I can actually do art, like I thought it had to be, like realism sort of stuff. Like it had to look like what it looks like. And because I couldn't do that, I was like, I can't do this. And then all of a sudden, I realized there's all these things you can do. Thing is amazing chord like people. I'm not trying to do a humble brag or anything. But people often say to me, like, Oh, you're so talented. And I don't actually think I'm that talented. I think I just have perseverance and sort of a bit obsessive sometimes. I think the school that I went to teaches you like really, like we learned the most boring painting triangles in black and white ages. And you know, you can't help but develop some skill. And if you're obsessed enough with something to stay up too early in the morning to get better at it, then you will so yeah, that's it, it really is a practice isn't it? It's not like you just wake up one day and you can all of a sudden do something, you actually have to learn the skills and and that's something else I didn't understand either. I just thought because my background singing I just thought you can sing or you can't sing like he can, you can do it or you can't and that's how I felt about drawing and painting until very recently. So I'm glad I've experienced it even when, like I'm at a point where I'm happy with my skill level. But there's still heaps more that I can learn about different techniques and different ways I can push myself conceptually so yeah, I can never ending process so when did you first get interested in art and creativity. I've always been interested in art and creativity. My mom's very creative. I'm one of three girls and we all are creative in our own ways I grew up going to the gallery a lot really loving art never really been bored because we were always making something out of papers, sticky tape. I guess I was always craft II I still entered still am I still do lots of crochet and sewing and things. But I never really trusted myself as an artist because like you said, like you were saying before you cannot you can't there are always people in school who were better drawers than me. I was interested in it. But I wasn't ever, like, didn't have that natural aptitude to be like amazing. So I I studied art history interested in getting into working in art. And I love to I love art history, but it didn't quite feel right enough for me to pursue that as a career too much. And it wasn't really until about my early to mid 30s that I took the plunge and went to art school and thought you know, what the hell. You know, if I if I want to do something, I'll usually do it properly. And so going to art school was my way of like, taking the plunge and seeing whether I could do it or not. So, yeah, yeah. And I've been through to discover that. You know, I, I can't it's just a matter of perseverance. So I was terrible, terrible at first and always one of the slowest in the class. So yeah, that didn't put you off. You're determined to do it. Yeah, there was a sort of bloody mindedness about me that I was just I wasn't gonna let it let it beat me. Good Anya, that's a great energy to hear. When you're talking about your art history, background, is that weird that sort of that love and appreciation of the symbolism sort of comes from? I think so. Yeah, I think the thing about my art history studies has taught me is that art is such a reflection of the world that you live in. And so, you know, you might look at a 17th century Dutch painting of a goblet and some grapes and think, oh, that's boring. I've seen that 100 times before, but it's actually of its time it had symbolism about, you know, life and death and wealth and prosperity and, you know, eternal life or, you know, greed or yeah, there's so much symbolism so much meaning to things. And I find it really fascinating to think about the context in which it was created. Yeah, I find that really fascinating, too. I had an interview with Dr. Melanie Cooper on one of my season ones, I love her. And I just opened my eyes to this whole world. And I was so fascinated by it, because I'm, I'm one of those people that I can't just watch a movie. And just, like, watch the movie, I have to see all the little hidden messages and in the, you know, the light and shade or wherever, where the actors is placed, and all this stuff, and it drives my sister nuts. Like, I can't just watch something and just shut up and watch it. So I found that really fascinating. And ever since then, I've sort of had this newfound appreciation for pieces of art, because they can't just be viewed on their own. Like, you can't just take them they have to be viewed within a context. She that's just reminded me of something that's completely random. Have you watched that Netflix show? It's called I think it's called inventing Anna. It's just come out. It's about that, that haven't I've seen teen girl. Yeah, she it's like this. She's a con woman. And she's really into art. And there's this one scene where they're in this art gallery, and I can't remember what the who the artist was. But she basically said, someone said, Oh, that's a really crap painting or whatever it was, it was a it was a photo of this art a lady with like a, I don't know, she had, you know how they used to put like handkerchiefs over their heads to stop that when they're in the cars or something. The hair going into it. Sorry, this is really random. It just reminded me. And so the person that was looking at it was all they were seeing was this lady with a thing overhead and just got in what's why is that amazing? And, and Anna in a, you know, calmness come out with this big story about how that was the first time a woman had stepped in front of the camera. And like a photographer, had made herself the subject and because of the era that it was in, and it was like a message about patriarchy and women's rights. And it was like, that just reminded me Sorry. No, no, no thing I love about art is that there's, it can just be a pretty picture or something that you'd like to look up. But there can also be so much to it. And I sort of get discouraged when people say sort of assume like art has to be just about skill. And I guess for me, I do have obvious skill in that I can paint. You know, if I would have been an apple, it would look like an apple when people would recognize it. And so they therefore think that my art is good art, whereas not necessarily, you know, and it's there's a sort of, I guess it might be a bit of a tall poppy thing, like people not wanting to push themselves or be confused by something challenged. And I think that that's the Australian way, isn't it? Like we've always got to we've got to cut down our tall poppies because they make everyone else feel in insignificant or incompetent. Or, you know, we've always got to try and level the playing field in some way, don't we? Yeah, it's horrifying that there is that tendency to feel. Yeah, I feel like you to feel discomfort about not knowing something instead of curiosity. Yeah, that's sorry. That is that's a really well put that's that's really well said. Yeah, so you paste that page on copper that we talked about before, was actually it was off the handle of cemetery. It's called handle of cemetery summer. And it was selected by the handoff Academy in the Adelaide Hills landscape arts prize. And that's pretty special. Yeah, I was thrilled, especially as I was saying before, it's the first time I painted on copper, and I saw that painting is a bit of an experiment. And I was also trying to push myself in that painting to leave things more unfinished. There's a tendency me to be a perfectionist and just paint everything to a fine detail. And that was quite inspired by an artist. Turner, and he has these beautiful paintings of weather and landscape that are just sort of half finished. They're just so coarse in some areas. And so I was just really trying to get get to that. Yeah, it's It actually reminds me of paintings that my Nana, not my Nana, sorry, my grandma had on her wall. She lived in clango, which is a little place near Mount Gambia. And just the color of the sky like that really burnt orange. I don't know I just when I looked at this, it just there's a I don't know there's a famous painting that used to be in her lounge. And it just came into my head. I thought gosh, Is that? I'm not saying it's the same, it's nowhere near the same. But that that color, that color just got me and I had that, you know that nostalgic Pang that you get. Then you go. Oh, yeah, yeah. So can you share with the listeners about the story about that? How that painting came to be? Yeah, well, I I specifically painted that painting and took the photograph that I painted that painting from with the Adelaide Hills landscape prize in mind. So that's why I was so stoked I got it. I guess like a lot of people I struggle with procrastination and fitting things in. So I will often choose an Art Prize and paint something for it. And whether or not I get it in is not the ultimate outcome. It's just to have something to do and to have a deadline. So and I don't do landscapes and but I thought I was quite interested to try. So I went for a drive up to hand off with my son one day and we had a lovely walk around. And I'm quite interested in cemeteries so may sound morbid taking your he was then four, I believe. Yeah. Taking a four year old to the cemetery. But um, yeah, I just love those. Love the area. And it's such a traditional old cemetery with so many old German names there. Yeah, yeah. Definite face for the eyes and lots of areas to paints. Yeah. Yeah, no, I can appreciate that interest in cemetery skill. I think it's, it's such a can obviously, it's a connection to the past. And often, like, we've got two cemeteries here, we've got like the new the newer one, and then we've got this really, really old one. And it's so nice to walk around and see. Like that. I don't know, it's just, it feels weird that you will somewhere with someone that that has was existed so many, like maybe 100 years before you, and you're at the same place at the same time with this person. Like it feels really unlikely. And there's one in the old kalangan Do you see reentry? In one of them? It doesn't even say this lady's name. It just says mother. And couldn't she even got a name on it? Like that one just really sticks in my mind. And I find that interesting to to see how people are remembered by other people the words they used to describe them and all that sort of stuff. I find that really fascinating. Yeah, for sure. Day. Now, you said there that you're not you don't usually do the landscapes? No. So what's your sort of? I mean, again, I've stalked you on Instagram. No, there was a picture that sorry. Yeah, a photo that you posted of painting that you've done of your son's robot that he made? Oh, yes. Which is always a beautiful picture. Like, it's just, I look at it. And I think like you could put your hand in and pick it up. Like it's just so it's really stick but without being, like I said before, like it's not an exact copy. It's got like, I don't know, it feels like it's looked through through a filter or a lens or something like an old. I don't know, rambling again. But I really liked that. So yeah, so share with us, what's the sort of things that you usually paint? What are you sort of influenced by mostly? Yeah, I usually paint objects. I don't generally tend to paint, paint or draw people and just not that I have anything against people who do or paintings that are of people are portraits, but I'm more interested in objects and what our objects say about us. So it's almost like I believe the objects that we find special to us are more of a portrait in some ways. And so that painting, it's lovely to hear that you love it, because that was very dear to me. It sold which was very flattering as well. It's amazing to think that someone wanted to pay money for that. So yeah, the I guess the story behind that one is my mum was looking after my son while I was at work, and my son is very, very into making and creating things too. And he just got it in his head that he had to make me a robot and he and my mom made it robot and he was just so his dear little face when he gave it to me. He was just so thrilled. And yeah, and I was yeah, it was just one of those lovely moments of being a mom where you're like your kids made you something really gorgeous and it's this really sweet and there was just a way to sort of capture that and I entered it into a Portrait Prize because um I see it as a portrait. Even though it's not a traditional portrait, it's almost like a double portrait because it's sort of triple portrait even because it's like, the title is me as a smart and pretty robot, which my son made a robot version of me being smart and pretty, which is what you'd want to be functioning well as well. And so he made it, and then I painted it. And so yeah, it was like a double, you know, his creativity, my creativity and our relationship. And so there are a lot of objects that have a real lot of meaning and tell a lot of story and I love I really like the ambiguity of painting something that might be a bit confusing, like, why would you paint? You know, I spent hours and hours and hours painting this particular thing and plunking it in the middle of something and making it look like this amazing, grand thing like they did with the, you know, Dutch still lives of these amazing goblets. You know, you can understand why paint something that was like beautiful fruit and silverware. But why would you paint some sort of cardboard thing? I quite liked the ambiguity of that. So yeah, that raises a real question. I think of like, what is valuable? And what, you know, just because something doesn't have a price tag. It's important to someone it has that value that that person places on it. Yeah, yeah, the sort of thing that you might grab, if they were a fire would not necessarily be the most money stuff at the most monetary things that are a link to another relationship. Yeah. Two things I want to ask you about this conversation. What did you send? Think about the fact that you then painted a picture of the robot? What was his impression of that? It's funny. He's very blase. Most kids who grew up their parents, whatever their parents is, like, oh, yeah, you know, you know, I asked him about the progress as I went on. I was like, What do you think about that color background? He's like, Yeah, it's good. Yeah. He was. Yeah, he was, I think it was he was quietly chuffed, but not amazingly. So just like yet. He was, he was annoyed when it got into the exhibition. And I haven't told him that it's sold yet he's forgotten about it. He sort of was a bit annoyed that it got in like, as if I hadn't consulted him. He's, I guess it was his intellectual property. So that's funny. Yeah. It's interesting, you say about objects that people might collect or be given, or you know, what they place their value on, I suppose. And you were saying how that can sometimes tell you more about someone than, you know, a portrait. Or maybe that's what I was thinking. Maybe they weren't your words, but I was thinking like, you can find out so much more about someone by looking at the things that they hold dearest. It's so interesting, because there's a friend of mine who is a watercolor artist, and Julia, Rita, hello, shout out to you. She collects when she goes on a walk, she collects pieces of nature. So it might be leaves, or gum nuts, or just anything that she finds. And she always posts on Instagram of the things that she's found. And I always find it so fascinating, because I'm like that with feathers, feathers. I always click those. And if there's an interesting leave, it's got to be very interesting. Yeah. And it's just like, why do we do this? Like, what are we, you know, this connection that we want to have to things surrounded by so many things and so many objects, which are the ones that stand out and become special? I just, I just find it really interesting. Yeah, so I was gonna ask you about your son. So he's, he's grown up. Like you said, he's a bit sort of blase, but the whole thing, because he's seen the paint he's grown up in, in the family of a painter and artist. Can you tell us a little bit more about him? Yeah, his name is Emmanuel. He's five started school this year. He's, he's lovely. He's amazing. He's He's very funny. Very energetic and hyper. He teaches me a lot about the world actually, he sort of I've often said he, he approaches everyone as if they're going to be fit be his friend. And mostly they are and I think that's a such a lovely way whereas I'm a lot more introverted and shy than him and it's just lovely to see him approach people with faith and excitement and enthusiasm and response. So yeah, that's, that's really interesting way you've described it, because it sounds like you're describing my child, but I haven't quite put the words together he seeks and he's the same he just now that you've said it in those words, it makes perfect sense. It's like he thinks everybody in the world is pretty ain't your friend like a kind person? And? Yeah, sort of thing. There's the time gonna come when you realize that's not really true. But for now it's lovely. Yes. There is that. Yeah. Yeah. Being five, he's very hyperactive and energetic. And yeah, it's an interesting age, he's learning to read and all that sort of things. So I think I'm getting to the point where I can sometimes have an hour off, or something to myself, but it's still very much that full on, you know, like food and drink. And this and that the whole time. Very demanding little things. Yeah. It's funny, because like, they grow up, and they're capable of more stuff. But it's like, the more capable they get. It's almost like the more they want you to do for them. Like, hi, like, right? They sort of revert and they want. Yeah, it's like, yeah, I want you to still be there every second. Yeah, exactly. You, you're actually a mother of two. Which I appreciate that. You feel comfortable talking about your son. Can you share with us about Louis? Yeah, so Emanuel has an older brother, Louis, who was born eight years ago. He died as a baby, he was. He was I was 39 weeks pregnant, about to set for an induction and I went to the doctors for the appointment ahead of that. And they were doing the ultrasound and couldn't find a heartbeat. And I was just really, like, what I felt the doctor was like, well, the baby's there. And it just hadn't occurred to me that anything would happen and, and so close to the birth. Yeah, so Louis was stillborn. Yeah, at 39 weeks. So that was, it was horrible, because not that it would necessarily be easier if you knew it was going to happen. But the idea that you could lose a child at that point, was just like, yeah, had not even occurred to me. And it just, I just couldn't quite comprehend it. So and when he was born, he was a perfectly formed, baby, like, he was my child, and he was beautiful. And he but he just wasn't alive. And it was just baffling. Like how it could happen. And yeah, yeah, it's it's interesting, you say that, I think there's so much emphasis placed on you know, the first three months, you know, those first 12 weeks, get through the first 12 weeks, and then no one ever talks about anything happening later on. And I think you're right, you just you just flow through and you just expected that that's what's going to happen. And so when it doesn't, it's just incredibly shocking and confusing. And yeah, yeah, it's almost like you breathe a sigh of relief after those first three months. And you can tell people and yeah, so yeah, it was it was horrible. And I think the fact that he was stillborn I didn't even get to see him breathe. I've always mourned. Well, I've known the whole thing, but I've definitely mourned. Not being able to tell him that I love him and see his eyes open. And so yeah, yeah, it's been um, you know? Yeah, it was was definitely the worst thing that happened. Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry to mine. That's yeah. And thank you for sharing it too. I think, like a lot of things in, in this world. There's so much taboo stuff that we never talk about. Yeah. And I feel like the more conversations we have about that stuff, the more we're actually helping each other. He's you know, on this on this podcast before we've talked about miscarriages, stillbirths, we've talked about mental health issues, death of a parent grateful, that sort of stuff. And I think it's important not only for the people that are sharing it, to have a platform to be able to share it if they want. But people who might have experienced something like that, and haven't had anyone around them talk about it. You know, this might be the first time someone's heard someone else say that and think, oh, wow, I am allowed to talk about that or you know, and encourages people to reach out to other people and and get conversation started. Yeah, and you're very alone. I mean, I guess no one can ever be inside your head with you. But it is a particular type of grief because, you know, you might meet someone new, you might be in the shops and someone could just assume that you're fine. You know, it's one of those. I'm sure everyone going through grief feels like you know, you should have this big red splash on your face or something. Like, to show that things aren't fine and normal and it's with being a mum, and having had a child but not having the child to raise. It complicates things so much like, you know, you'll meet someone, you know, go to the hairdresser, and they'll say, Have you got any kids? And in the early days, I would say yes, because I, it pains me to say no, because it was a definite was like a denial of his existence. And then people would that would raise people be uncomfortable and not know what to say and be awkward. And these days, I'll I'll choose whether I say or not. And most times, I'll actually just say, I've got the one kid because I just don't feel the need to get into conversation with acquaintances. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, my friends and family obviously all know about it. But I feel more comfortable not talking about Louis as much as I used to. I think in the early days, it was important for me to I was always angry it No, it wasn't almost, I was very angry. I felt angry that he wasn't there. I felt angry that people didn't know about him. And I Yeah, yeah. It's like, you wanted to tell them because it was, I guess, validating the fact that he actually did exist he, you know, yeah, that would feel like you weren't doing the right thing by him, I guess to say, you know, to acknowledges that he was there. Yeah. And people were well, meaning that there are some platitudes that come out. And people would say something like, Oh, he's, he's in heaven. Now he's with the angels or something that people don't say that about grown. People that have died, it's almost like because he was a baby wasn't, you know, he gets those throwaway little comments. It's almost like it's not valuing the life as much. Yeah, no, that's a good is a good point. So throughout that experience that you had, was there any place for your art there? Was that sort of, did you use that as a tool to heal? Or was it was it tucked away for a while? Like how did that sort of play out? Oh, actually played a huge role. And I feel like, without wanting to sound, you know, melodramatic, it made me the person that I am now and might be, not get over it, get the get through it. Because I'd been in art school while I was pregnant with Lewis and had teamed during the break. And then I went back to the next semester, art classes and, you know, family sort of question, like, Maybe you should take a break from art school. But I did take a little bit of a break from work, but it was important for me to go back to art school, and I really just became obsessed with painting then. And like I said, at first, I was terrible. But I, you know, not having a new baby, like, all my preparations had gone into having this new child to look after. And suddenly, there was a quiet house, and I was on maternity leave, and there was not a child to look after. So it was actually quite good to be able to, you know, I'd stay up to like three or four or five in the morning painting assignments, because I could, you know, it was a way for me to sort of do something that was doing something. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, it was, it was a way to, like hold on to something that I think at the time, I wouldn't even say I was enjoying the painting wasn't about enjoying, it was just about doing it, it was almost like a chore or a challenge or something. So in the early days, it was something to do to get better at it. And further on, it was like a way to something to hold on to something good in life, because it it's funny with with grief, you know, it's quite circular, and you can feel like, I think the worst time for me was about a year after it had happened, because I felt like by that point, I should possibly be pregnant again, and things should be back to normal and things should be fine. But in any in many ways, I think I'd had quite a naive optimistic view of the world and that view had gone down and a year later I just felt like life was just like, trudging through you know, it was all very gray and bleak and art was the one thing I could like make a decision to hold on to and make life good. Yeah, like in some ways, you know that that saying fake it till you make it like it was my thing to hold on to as something good in the world to get enthusiastic about even though I didn't feel enthusiastic I sort of gradually made myself force myself to be so yeah, yeah. So it was this is hate describing like this, but it was sort of like a form of therapy. I suppose. That helped you? Oh, definitely process and work through thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I had a my ex partner at the time Probably not fair on him to go into too much information about him, but seeing him NOT have a channel to express himself or spend time on doing anything productive, I saw that I was definitely the better off by having a way to spend my time improving on something I'm getting better at it. Yeah. And I think yeah, for yourself to, to feel productive and feel like, you know, there's, there's something like said there's something good in the world. And it might have also been like, a consistent thing that you knew, was probably, you know, it was up to you whether it was there. It wasn't, so it was gonna be there as long as you wanted it to, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah. And I think being in art school at the time I had, you know, there was deadlines, things had to be done on a certain time. So, yeah, there was. Yeah, it was definitely a type of therapy. Yeah. I think I think sometimes when the world feels a bit bleak, I've had my own mental health, not so much postnatal depression, but other types of mental health issues. Art is a good way to sort of keep busy doing something that feels worthwhile. Yeah, absolutely. As a mother, have you noticed that what you're influenced by has changed, or the way that you look at things have has changed in terms of your art? Yeah, yeah, I would say that. Um, I mean, I was still in the early days of my artists being an artist before I became a mom. But since then, I've found it's yeah, definitely informs my art and the way I see things, because everything that happened with my first son, and my second son, you sort of realize what's important in life and what sort of things are meaningful, and you look for meaning how you can display that meaning visually, so yeah. Yeah, nice. And that's something I, I like about my own art, which sounds a bit vague. I like that, um, I've got the skill to show something, you know how it is, I can paint something and people can appreciate like, Oh, that's a painting of a, whatever it is. And leave it at that. But then there is also that other element, like, for example, the robot painting we were talking about before, you could look at that and say, Oh, it's a child's piece of craft, but then there is also that further element. Like the layering that you get. Oh, yeah, it's so fascinating. I really wish I had gotten done this earlier in my life. Really? I mean, I know I'm only 40 but after long hopefully I've got a long time to do this stuff is so interesting. I just love it. Well, I'm 42 I turned 40 A couple of weeks ago and um, yeah, I guess I'm, I'm encouraged by there are a lot of artists, female artists who are going strong into their older years or even like fully come into themselves as artists later on. So while I do get frustrated that I don't have the time to dedicate that I would like I still feel like I've got the foundations of skills and who knows what will happen in the future I might have more time to push things further Yeah. Two really interesting topics I like to talk to all of my guests about is mum guilt and identity so we'll launch into monk your first because that's always a bit of fun. It's everyone's concept of Aries is different in which I love to to say interesting. What's your take on mum guilt? What's your thoughts around that? I'm, I've been thinking about that since you asked me for the interview and I'm undecided about mum guilt because I feel like it definitely exists. I do feel guilty about things whether or not that guilt is fair on myself or other people well I think it comes from wanting to do the best you can by the by your child and feeling like you're perhaps letting them down. So I do believe in mum guilt that way, but then I also feel like perhaps or maybe I'm just I'm just lucky and privileged in that I haven't felt as judged from people. It's the people I surround myself with. supportive of the things I do so I don't feel that sense of mom guilt socially. If you're not, I mean like I, I work and my son's in child in school and childcare, but OSH if if things could be different they would be but I don't feel guilty about the fact that I am not a traditional mum, and that we don't, you know, bake together very often or do a lot of things I'd like I say, while I do feel regret that there's not as much time together as I would like, I don't feel guilty about that, because that's where we live in. You know, it's if I were not working, then there'd be other problems that we'd have. Yeah. Sorry. Yes, I'm undecided. I definitely do feel guilty mom guilt about not doing everything and definitely times when I haven't done my best as a mom and being a single mom. There are times when I'm just so exhausted. And I've completely I've got nothing left. And I know that at times I could have done better and I lose it a bit and I do feel guilt then, but I wouldn't describe that as your what most people might call mum guilt i i describe that more as just like, general, you know, feeling like I did a shit job of parenting that. Yeah, hats off to you. By the way, anyone that's out there as a single moms listing. I've got so much respect for you guys. Man. Well, I'm lucky compared to some of my friends who are doing it all alone. I do have a you know, my son still got a great dad who's a big part of his life. So I don't have my son 100% of the time. So I do get time to you know, have a bit of mental space and not Yeah, so I think it would be much harder if you're that the sole custody parent for sure. Oh, yeah. I don't know how he's doing honestly. I'm just really weak and pathetic. You get surprised by what you're capable of. I never intended to be a single parent. It was not what you know. I went into a marriage and motherhood thinking but it is what it happened. Did you know it happened and managed somehow whether or not undoing all right I assume I am. I think I am still alive and healthy and a nice person. Yeah. Yeah, he's still out there making these friends with everyone. So you know he you know you're doing a good job yeah, this concept of identity that when when you're a mom, you just you don't want to say you're just a mom, because we're never just a mom. That's not the the right words, but you can be so much more than the mothering role, I suppose. What What's your thoughts on that as well? Yeah, it's funny. I mean, I do see myself as as a mom as a huge part of my identity. Especially I think having feeling like angry and bitter that my first son was taken away from me. I've held on to that identity of myself as a mother quite strongly like yes, I Yeah, definitely. That's a big part of my identity. Almost like the core really like is when you have a child, they're sort of even if they're not physically with you, they're there somewhere else. People I've heard all sorts of cheesy phrases like having a child is like having your heart out in the world or something that there is a trick to that in that you there's always a part of you that you're thinking about them and hoping they're okay and yeah, it's not the only part of me but it's it's the major part of me you know, I think being an artist and my job and my family and friends form a part of that as well but yeah, it's definitely sort of feels like the central part of my identity especially in this stage of my son's life where that five he still very much needs me a lot and it's quite physical you know, a lot of cuddles and other physical things cleaning up getting food and that seems to be the biggest thing and I they're always want something that feeds things to be excited come on you how much you eat. Oh my God. It's not seasonal. So I've got two boys and it's like my oldest ones because he 14 now and he'll the years he's been eating the same amount of tea is my husband think they'd like sticks. There's nothing off them. It's insane. Yeah, really? Yeah. Always growing boys. No Are you? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman is it important to you to continue to have your own interests? Outside of being a mum? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think having my own interests outside of being a mum, I feel like is a good part of being a mum. Without wanting to speak ill of my own mum, I think growing up in a very creative family and she was very creative and loved doing art, but she didn't pursue it outside of, you know, craft things for herself. And not that everything has to be pursued to a high level, but it did seem to me as a, something that she could have pursued and didn't different times different means that sort of thing. But um, yeah, I think my son, he's definitely interested in my art. And he gets to see that and something that I really, really, really want him to grow up with is a sense of perseverance. And the idea that if you want something, you have to try really hard to make it happen. And I think he's in in a small way, my art shows in that because he sees something from a small, you know, nothing Canvas to become something that I choose it to be, and he sees me spending a lot of time on it. So the idea of time, putting time into something and sticking to it, not that instant gratification. Yeah, and the idea that if, if you want to be good at something you can be, but you just have to try. So I do talk about even though I'm not studying, right at the moment, I do talk about art school, and how you can get, you can learn things and get better at them with practice. And so that idea of practice I talk to him a lot about and I think it's, it's an interesting thing as well, art, like there's so much so much art that you can go and take kids to, and it's something that we really do a lot together of so it's a big part of our lives together. And I think he's, we go to a lot of gallery openings and things together. And so yeah, in a way, it is a part of my identity as a mother with the art and having that it's important because it informs me as a mother to him, but it's also good for him to see me pushing myself, I think in spending my time doing something that I'm interested in, because not that there's anything wrong with sitting in binging TV show. I've, I've definitely done that. But I think in life, you'd want to have, you know, big things that you go after. And I think it's good for him to see that. Yeah, I love that. Because it reminds me of this, this saying what society says to kids that are you can be anything you want to be. But then it doesn't follow up with if you work really, really hard at it and persevere at it. You know, it's I think sometimes kids can have this sense of entitlement, I can be whatever I want, you know. And also that, that idea that that two things you said then sort of got me going this, this way that society is seems to be going about, everything's got to be supplied in an instant, you know, like this, I want something so I'm going to order it and get it in two days, or I've broken something that I'm not going to repair it because it's cost more to repair than to buy a new one and this instant gratification. Like I don't know, that I think for him to be able to get that understanding that, you know, a painting does not just appear on the wall of the gallery. There's, you know, all these hours and efforts and decisions to be made and all the stuff that goes into making that pace. I think that's a really valuable thing to teach your child. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And it's a very peaceful activity. So I don't paint a lot when he's around because occasionally he'll see me painting and all who see the progress is quite slow. And I think that peacefulness is something that's missing in life. So a lot for me It plays. So the sense of something being slow and peaceful, certainly doesn't hurt. Yeah, I spoke to a, an artist the other day who was a posture, like did this do clay took the clay out the earth, made it into shapes into whatever. And then you have to take a really long time for to fire it, you can't just put it in and expect it to be done in, you know, five minutes because it will actually wreck it and exploded, you know, everything takes time. And we're talking about how you know that. That forces her to slow down, it forces it to take time and to be patient and to appreciate the process. And you know, there's just Yeah, and she also makes mistake Mercedes she's going to be here episode will be out soon. I actually know her episode would have been on by the time yours comes out. Sorry. I'm getting okay. Okay, Visa the timeline. But yeah, she made ink out of acorns, some like, and then she was making charcoal out of like, vines, sticks of like vines, putting them in little tin and putting them in the fire. And, you know, filling up the tin and drawing with each other. It's like, we don't do that anymore. We just go and order stuff. And it arrives and no one knows what happened. It's just getting back in touch with the earth. And I don't know, we're getting away from that stuff. And that raises an important idea about when you're creative, like the process of it, like, it's good to have something to show at the end. And I wouldn't paint if you know, everything I painted, got chucked in the bin at the end of the night. But the process is really meaningful is really important as well, like, for me the mixing of the color colors that I need and the application. It's something that's real, it feels really vital to me like the process of going through painting, you know, if I could, if I could speed up my process, I don't think I would, because I really enjoy the whole. I'm very slow and take a long time. But I really enjoy every aspect of it and the different phases of a painting. Yeah, yeah. And again, yeah, it's not all about the end product. It's yeah, I like that do you mainly paint in oils or do acrylic painting as well? I don't paint with acrylic. I don't really have any acrylic paint. Aside from like, I'll start. I won't ever start with a white surface. So I'll start with them easily Burnt Umber I'll do in acrylic, just because it's cheaper to cover a board in acrylic than oil dries quicker as well, which is good. But um, no, I just really love the way that oil, you can sort of push and pull it in. It's so pliable and it takes longer to dry, so you feel less pressure to get it perfect. I do some I do do a little bit of watercolor here and there. Like if I'll do a little sketch or something like that I'll do some watercolors are from sort of autism instant gratification. You know, I'll work with watercolor, but I like watercolor has a sort of you don't really know exactly how it's going to turn out. I mean, you do but I get what you mean. Yeah, yeah, if you go with that unexpected side, you can get some really beautiful stuff. And I've I don't know enough about acrylic, and I haven't painted in it enough to either be able to control it or enjoy that unexpected element that I enjoy from watercolor. Yeah, I guess it depends what you can, what results you want. And I don't I don't think I could get what I want with acrylics. Whereas if I were painting something different and what after a different look. And if I could get that from acrylics I'm, I'm sure I would because it would be cheaper and easier to clean up. Paintings are a real pain in the bum. You know, at the end of the night when you finished having to clean your brushes. Yeah. You can't just do what I do and just leave it in the water till the next day or longer. Think got any sort of things that you're working on at the moment, like any particular sort of train of thought for your work or anything coming up, like entering competitions or anything like that? Yeah, I hate to say it but I've had a bit of a lull at the moment. I've had a lot going on On family wise, with my dad being in hospital now, and my son starting school, so I feel like this whole year has been quite overwhelming to begin with. So I haven't done a lot of art. I've done a lot of crafts that sort of like my comfort blanket, a bit of crochet. But I've always been in that space of time, I've been going to galleries and looking through art books. So it's always been a part of my life. And I've just been doing more practical things like getting boards ready, because I love to paint on linen on board. So I've been doing things like getting some wooden boards ready for painting for when I'm ready. And I've taken photographs of things because I work from photographs, and I have started a painting, which is sitting up on the kitchen table now. So it feels good to have something out and ready. So yeah, yeah, I sort of had a bit of a flurry towards the end of last year. And I think yeah, that's from working. Not quite full time. But you know, four days a week and having I have to be really self disciplined to do art, and I haven't been that soft. So yeah, but I've, I'm working on a painting at the moment with no, not for any particular competition or anything, but just a lot of things. The work I do can fit slot into competitions. So when it's done, so yeah, I'm actually painting seafood. At the moment, I did a painting of an oyster a year or two ago, and I loved it. And it's a Sargent painting of squeed that I just adore. And it's a lot I'm really attracted to the sort of disgustingness and the beauty of it at the same time. Yeah. So I'm doing a painting of a oyster and a crab and just the sort of the beauty of these, and also the repellent nature of these things as well. That's an interesting juxtaposition, isn't it? Like it's? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really interesting thing about still life painting as you can, what you choose to paint, obviously, you're putting it at the forefront and making people pay attention to this thing. And, yeah, what you choose to paint can be interesting. When you go to art shows, do they have like an explanation of what they're trying to say in in it? Or is that do you? Is it up to the viewer to work to make what they want from it? Yes or no? Yeah, there's often sometimes you go to an exhibition, and it'll just be the title and the medium. And that's all there is other times you'll go to an exhibition. And there'll be a catalogue essay that you can read, which is definitely worth reading, because that is generally written by someone other than the artists, but they'll have had a good conversation with the artist and really understand their concepts. So yeah. And then sometimes if you go, like, for example, at the art gallery, they'll put a small blurb around things, explaining them a little more. So yeah, I think I really do appreciate those catalog essays and the descriptions of them as long as they're written in plain English. And I think with a lot of professions, there's jargon, but there is a real history in writing things more complicated than they need to be. I find it really disheartening, when you'll, I'll go to an exhibition and I love it, and I buy the catalog or take the free catalog and read the essay, and it would just be like, feel really dense. And it just, it's almost like someone's trying to prove that they went to uni. And yeah, it's really alienating, like, creates that boundary between the clever person and the Navy's reading. For sure. And I mean, it's good to be challenged and to find things that you don't know about and try and learn about them. But I think in the writing of it, you need to be out, you can still write beautifully. And write in a way that's easy to understand. Yeah, I had an artist on from Ireland few months ago, and she said the same thing. She said, she said, there's all these blank speak. She tries to stay out of it. Yeah. And I feel like I know it. I can. I can speak that language because I've been school, but I feel like you have to have been to art school to be able to understand something. So yeah, it's an it's interesting, like, maybe that's why, I don't know people gets I sort of liken it to when you go wine tasting, and they'll talk in this special language of I've got I can spell tones of this and notes of that and you just think it's just why like it's just, you know, it's like why, you know, this world has to have The special thing and I like sit in alienates people. And then like, normal everyday people are so off put from, you know, entering this world because they feel so dumb, like, you know, like if you could if going to using the art analogy if people could describe it, like, describe it better and say when I taste this makes me feel this or that or something in a way that was more engaging and not like, made you feel stupid for not getting the exact same thing when you took that see if you know if Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? It's like this elitist. I wonder if that comes from. I'm gonna draw a very long bow here. Because when I spoke to Melanie, that all this stuff about patriarchy came up about how women have always been excluded from art. You know, traditionally, the women did the arts and crafts, like the craft stuff, and that was like, the crap stuff that wasn't valued by the Yeah, like things like waving that was just a correct Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, is that is all that weird talking language world been created by men to try and keep women out of it? Because they can talk in this fancy way. But women wouldn't understand it. Yeah, that's sort of that. Yeah, I think it's dangerous for any field, to spend, to not be open up to new voices and ideas, I think you can be quite, you can become quite insular in any field. And now mean, if you're talking, or your friends know what you're talking about, or your friends and colleagues, you're talking about, you're talking the same way, then it's all going to start sounding the same and becoming some little in, in joke. And, you know, if other people aren't open to that, then it becomes a bit closed off, doesn't it? Yeah. Did you ever paint with other people, or you always paint by yourself? Yeah, I do always paint by myself, I would love the idea of painting with other people. And I love the idea of having a studio space and being able to bounce ideas off other people. And just sharing the space because you are, it is a very solo practice painting and drawing. So I really love the idea of having a studio and one day I would love to but just at the moment. With work and finances and things, it's just not something that I can do. So I sort of artists, something that I more just grab where I can whereas I think you have a studio, you're paying to rent that space, you sort of want to make the most of it. And I mean, I was sort of hoping once my son went to school, I have Friday's off but hasn't worked out yet, but I think yeah, I'm definitely loved the idea of a studio but um, at the moment it's more just you know what I can get done at home and I'm lucky in that the medium that I love painting and drawing I can do from home I can. I've got a very small place I live in a unit and my artists spread out all over the table at the moment I can do that at home other artists, I guess need that studio space because it's the work that they do isn't practical or feasible to do at home. So yeah, yeah. Before when you're talking about your mom, did that experience of watching her not pursue? Perhaps what she might have been able to do? Did that make you want to do it more? Was that sort of a driving thing? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Because, I mean, it may sound melodramatic. People talk about things on your deathbed that you would regret. But it would definitely be something if I got to old age and hadn't become an artist. I would definitely regret that because even though I didn't know that I had the potential, what I mean, I was interested in art and I suspected I could become an artist but I was so unsure of myself for so long. I wasn't sure if I have the ideas and be able to develop the skill. But I think not pursuing that I would have been disappointed in myself. Yeah, and I just I think I'm sound sounding very melodramatic again. But I think life is quite boring a lot of the time. Like, there's so much drudgery and so much routine, that you just really, really need a I mean, relationships make life worthwhile, but you also really, really need a big, huge ongoing project to be able to, to get excited about otherwise. Yeah. You know, like, the days yeah, that's it. There's everything said repetitive it just flies by before you've even realized. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That Is that is good. We should all live like that. Yeah, I'm saying that sounding Oh, you know, Oprah Winfrey, but not that I haven't been doing much at all. But it's been in my mind. So yeah, see, that's the thing. It makes you see the world a different way. Like I imagined yourself being a musician, you would hear things and think of that. Think of things differently. Whereas I'll look at certain colors or compositions, and it'll get me excited about things or make me think about things a certain way. So it's something that you always carry with you. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you, sir. Right. It's been a real pleasure to meet you and to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for having me, Alison. I really loved talking about, about everything we talked about tonight. It's been all very deep and meaningful. And, yeah, it's good to talk about the things that are important in life, like art and family because, yeah, it really is what makes life worthwhile. So yeah, to have the chance to articulate all the thoughts in my head. Listen to them. Thanks for sharing. It's been really nice. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Carmen Bliss Australian holistic counceller S1 Ep17 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts **Please be aware this episode contains discussion about stillbirth, miscarriage, grief, panic attacks, PTSD and anxiety. Carmen opens up very honestly and at times graphically about her stillbirth experience and procedures in the aftermath** My guest today is Carmen Bliss, holistic counsellor and mother from Mount Gambier South Australia. I invited Carmen onto the podcast to share her knowledge and expertise as a holistic counsellor, particularly around the areas of identity and mum guilt - that we discuss in each episode. Carmen founded and runs her own business, Inspired Wellbeing Co. providing support for individuals, couples, parents and workplaces. What follows today is an honest and open discussion about self worth, identity, setting boundaries and the ego, where Carmen not only shares her expertise, but shares her own experience with parenting, loss and finding your true calling in life. Connect with Carmen here - Connect with the podcast here - Music used with permission - Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest today is Carmen bliss, holistic counselor and mother from Mount Gambier South Australia. I invited Carmen onto the podcast to share her knowledge and expertise as a holistic counselor, particularly around the areas of identity and mum guilt that we discuss in every episode. Carmen founded and runs her own business inspired wellbeing co providing services for individuals, couples, parents and workplaces. What follows today is an honest and open discussion where Carmen not only shares her expertise, but shares her own experiences with parenting loss and finding your own true calling in life. Please be aware this episode contains discussion around stillbirth, miscarriage, grief, panic attacks, PTSD and anxiety. Carmen opens up very honestly and at times graphically about her stillbirth experience and the procedures in the aftermath. Today, I'm really excited to welcome a very special guest, a guest with a little bit of a difference. Welcome Carmen bliss, who's from inspired wellbeing code, you met Gambia thank you for coming on, Carmen, it's so lovely to have you. Thank you. It's, um, pleasure to be here. So I sort of thought I approached you because I've probably recorded 20 or so of these now, these chats with these artistic moms. And I have some particular topics that I love talking about. And they're the responses, I get a very different but quite similar in a lot of ways, but slightly different. And I thought, so I thought it was about time I spoke to someone who's got some expertise in this area, he could perhaps help shed a little bit of light on what's going on for moms when they're experiencing these things. Maybe some sort of ways we can look at it differently. To help us through before we delve into all of that nitty gritty stuff. Let's chat about you for a little while Carmen. So tell us a little bit about yourself and, and the business that you run and how you got into all that sort of stuff. Well, I probably fell into this profession, it was not a planned profession, my personality type, which you'll learn, I love all that sort of stuff. So as we go along our discussion, you'll pick up on bits and pieces that I'm really passionate about, including understanding personality types and stuff. My personality type is quite I don't want to use the word rigid, but it but it is like it's quite structured. I like structure I you know, like numbers, data, all that sort of stuff, which people who know me probably think, oh, I don't think so. But that that is the the crux of my personality. So I was never going to be a counselor. So even when I was working as a student counselor, I said I'm never training in counseling ever. It's not my thing. I don't like it, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And then here I am, with my own piece was in counseling. Go figure. Um, so yeah, so I sort of got into the business because of a few personal situations that kind of changed my view on the world. Like it was like a not like a wake up moment or I suppose it was a wake up moment, but like a daunting period. And then if that's the right word, but you kind of know what I mean. And what you think okay, life's not as black and white as I've made it out to be for the last 36 years or 35 years or whatever, it was 32 years you know, I was very black and white before before that point. So yeah, here I am doing counseling which I never thought I would be doing. Yeah, so family I've got a lovely husband who we've been together nearly 20 years I think next year, which is seems like a long time. I'm still learning things about him every day. Which is probably a good thing because it keeps me interested. I've got two children. And Harrison he just turned 13 on the weekend. Lucky he's a pretty quiet child. So we haven't really hit that crazy teenage stage yet. I mean, there are, you know, the smelly bedroom and not showering and the greasy pair of the pimples and stuff. But yeah, nothing outrageous, which I'm thankful for. And then I've got my daughter Anna, who's just turned seven in August. And yeah, God help us when she turns 13. Because it's a completely different story. I've been managing her behavior since she was two. So just yeah, she she, her here as a teenager, I'm just pretty apprehensive about that. We'll deal with it when it comes. And then. So my family journey hasn't been like an easy one, obviously. So we had Harrison, he was not planned. So I was only 25 not really thinking about kids, you know? And then Oh, hello, I'm pregnant. But we owned our own house. And you know, we're in a really good position. We have jobs, and you know, everything like that. So yeah, wouldn't change it for the world. Absolutely. So then, when Harry was about three, we started trying for another baby, and had three miscarriages sort of in a row. Didn't really get to the point of testing, like, what, why there was a few things like to think it's progesterone levels, and just little things like that. But then fell pregnant with Anna after that, and she was just like, a normal, healthy kind of pregnancy. So it was, yeah, it was a bit weird. And then we lost a baby through stillbirth when Anna was two, so that that kind of put us you know, you know, the whole family situation number one, like that was unplanned. So you know, you have those freak outs, like, Oh, my God, like, Baby number three, what the hell are we gonna do? You know, I love my job, I don't think I want to take maternity leave, you know, all that sort of stuff. At the time, I was earning more than Brad. So you know, tossing up? Does he be the stay at home dad, and all of that sort of stuff. So you kind of go into this whirlwind, and I went into denial. So I think because it rocked our world so much. And because Anna was still only like one and a half to when we fell pregnant. But yeah, with the third baby. And so went into kind of like, I don't think I want this baby. Like, you know, there was all that, like self talk. Like, I don't know how I'm gonna handle three kids, you know, and as Harry was this perfect textbook, baby, you know, that slept through the night and his cot from day one. You know, he was just like this perfect baby. And then Anna came, and it was like, holy shit. Why don't we? why don't why did we choose to go back? No, she's got the biggest heart. But the biggest personality? So. Yeah, so she's totally and I'm trying to manage a two year old and then yeah, we bang. We're pregnant again. So yeah, I felt in those early stages, I felt like I didn't want to be pregnant, I, you know, was in a lot of denial and stuff. And then when we went to our ultrasound and at 20 weeks and found out that we lost the baby, then all the guilt started. Because you know, you think you think was that? Like, did I do this by wishing it away? Did I do this by thinking that I don't want this baby, you know, all that sort of stuff sort of starts to creep in. But luckily, I've got a really, really good support network around me. But it wasn't easy. I don't think anyone tells you about these things. So like I had to give birth. So so it's like no one tells you that. You know, do you get what I mean? Like now you think but you know, people say oh, you know, we've had a stillbirth, whatever, whatever. Yeah. But they don't actually say, Oh, you have to give birth. You know, like the follow up stuff. Yeah, so I was completely shocked by that. Because I was like, oh, like, I don't know whether I can do that. I don't know whether I can, like, you know, go into a labor room and give birth to a baby that's not alive. You know, like that. That was a really big fear. And I think that's the point where I really broke down. Like when the doctor told me that I had to give birth like I was kind of not in shock. But yeah, in I don't know. Yeah, it would be shocked, I suppose. And I hadn't showed any full on emotion yet. Obviously, it's a whirlwind. But when the doctor said, and I was so lucky, I had an amazing doctor. And it was, you know, when people were there, the right people at the right time. She was One of those people because she was literally only my doctor for six months. And it was that period where I got pregnant, and then lost the baby. And she was there through the whole thing. And then she was gone. She just left town. So it's like, so weird. She was she was obviously there for the right time, you know, the right time for me. So she was amazing. And she was really comforting and talked to me through the whole thing. And yeah, and the midwives at the hospital were also really, really amazing. So I feel like I had, like, the support that I that I needed, like, throughout that whole journey, even though it's you know, it's horrible. It's I'm probably speaking about it. Maybe some people think candidly, but I've processed a lot of that stuff. You know, I've worked very hard over the last five years to, to process, all of that. So, you know, and had intense counseling myself, and to sort of work through all of that. And but yeah, the midwives were amazing. And I just remember this, this one, there was two main midwives and there was one whose name was Gloria. Oh, yeah. You know, her. I know, Gloria. Yeah. How amazing is she? Yeah, she, she, I think she's still working up there. Like she's been. But yeah, I think she just recently retired, oh, God, cuz she was there. When we had ally eggs. She's like, like, I've got seven years between my two. So she was there when I had Alex 13 years ago, nearly 14 years ago. And then she was still there. When I had Digby, and we were just like, Oh, my God. And actually, I'm digressing now. But she was the first person I told about my, when I was up there, my postnatal depression was coming back. And so I just trusted her so much. She was just like the most like, she'd just come in. And she'd just sit down and have a chat. And my husband thought she was awesome. Like, she was just here. So like, Gloria was there for the first half of the labor. And she was just like, this guardian angel, I suppose, you know, that had been sent to nurture me in that time. And, you know, she she was telling me about how, you know, how many of the births that are not live for her, you know, in her whole career standard? Yeah. So she, she told me about, you know, all the pregnancies and births and everything that she had come across in her career and what her life was like, and, yeah, that she didn't have any children of her own. I think she was, like, am I right in saying Not, not a nun, but something similar to that, like a sister or something? Yes, she was. She was a sister. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she she served, you know, in that way, sort of got in that way? I suppose. So yeah. And then there was another lady Fiona, who, who actually was there when I when I birth Lucy. And she was amazing as well, like, she was just so amazing. But no one tells you about all this stuff. And you know, that I think that's the hardest thing that I found is, you know, no one tells you those steps. And I don't know, maybe it's better to be naive. Yeah, I don't know. And I think the hardest part of that, because when you're in labor, like they drug you up. Yeah. Like you can say no, obviously. But yeah, that emotional and you know, you just want to be a bit numb. Which was probably, I don't know, I don't think I would have changed that. Because you just want you don't want any pain, you know, it's not like you're going to be rewarded at the end, you know, you just want to be numbed out for a little bit. But probably the hardest part of that, of that whole process was like walking out with without a baby. So like that, like you're in the maternity ward with with everybody else, and you have to exit that maternity ward with no baby. So that was probably, I felt like I was like the walker shame almost like people were looking, you know, I don't know, it was just a really weird experience. And quite confronting, like, that was pretty, you know, because, you know, you imagine, you know, and because I've had two children, you know, I have experienced this before, you know, that feeling when you're taking your baby home, and you're like, you know, it's just such a big moment of putting the baby in the capsule and getting it in the car. And, you know, all of that. So yeah, it was like the complete opposite of that. So yeah, it was really weird. And Gloria sent me and it's like, blew me away. She sent me a postcard Exactly a year later, on the exact date that I gave birth, saying, like, how she was still thinking about me and that she was in some conferences and midwifery conference and yeah, she was thinking about the date and yeah, like I bawled my eyes out. When I received that in the post because I was like, oh, How does she have time to even remember these dates? And she said like it was on the date. So yeah, I keep that because Oh, yeah, I made you cry now. Oh my Well, sharing that yeah honestly. Bla bla bla so I lean I, it's not that. And I know people talk about grief differently. And I know that it's very different for every individual. You know, I've worked with grief in my counseling work, you know, I understand that people handle grief and loss differently. But I had a period of denial, not denial of what had happened. Denial of my feelings. You know, like, I just shut them all the way. I didn't want to process them. Yeah, so that was for about a year. Then, then it came like that, then all of the emotions came and I had to get counseling and stuff because I ended up with post traumatic stress disorder, because I had quite an invasive operation afterwards. Which looking back now I if I could preach one thing to to young women, or young mums even is make informed decisions about your, about your own body. So I was tucked into a procedure and ablation of the uterus when I didn't actually need it. And it was one of the most invasive procedures that I've had, because it was really like, extremely painful. And now I don't, and I can't have children anymore because of it. And it was quite soon after that stillbirth. So the gynecologist who I won't name shouldn't not like they shouldn't be making people who've just gone through that make those decisions. Yeah. It's not an informed decision. How can you make a decision like that when you're not in the right frame of mind? And the same as Brad, so he was booked in for a vasectomy? Already. Like before, we found out that we were pregnant with Lucy. And so then all of this happened, and it was about three months later. And he was still booked in for this discectomy. And, you know, like, we kind of discussed it and everything but looking back like you don't i don't know you can't you're not in the right frame of mind to December the never gonna have children again. I mean, I didn't find pregnancy easy. So I'm not sure that I would have gotten back for another pregnancy anyway. But it's nice to have the option, isn't it? Yeah, that's thing, isn't it? Yeah. That's that's quite appalling. Isn't it to fronted with that? It's such a when you're so vulnerable, and obviously not having the time to, like you said, to find out what you need to find out and the ramifications of this. Yeah, that's That's appalling. Yeah, so yeah, you're working through that as well. As Yeah, so yeah, yeah. So that's a grief and loss in itself. Because, you know, as a woman, we have periods, and then there was no longer so that's a that's a grief and loss in itself. And yes, it's fantastic. Not bleeding every month. But also, I feel like something's missing. Some months, you know, like, that's a process that we get used to it. It's a womanly thing. Yeah, it's spiritual and all the rest of it. So yeah, I ended up with PTSD, because that operation didn't go as planned. And a few few hiccups went wrong when I was going under, and yeah, so then I was presented with, you know, having these panic attacks, you know, multiple times a day and just felt completely out of control for probably three, three to four, three years, probably three, three solid years. Oh, wow. I didn't Yeah, I didn't want to go on medication or anything, because medication has its place. Absolutely. Like I am not anti medication, but for me and my body and knew that it wouldn't be the right choice. So and only because I'm so sensitive to all of that sort of stuff. Like I know that my body would have probably reacted, you know, unpleasant way rather than helping the situation. So yeah, I just got intensive intensive counseling and yeah, worked through it that way. And I mean, I still have anxiety a little bit and still moments. have panic every now and again. But it's pretty much under control at the moment. Yes, my family laughs and Poor Anna, she was too when all this happens. So I feel like we're having a lot of issues with her at the moment. And I feel like some of it has contributed to my probably lack of emotional availability around that time. All right, well, I'm gonna take you back right back to the start. You refer to yourself as a holistic counselor, can you share what that holistic element means? And how that changes? How you approach your work? Yeah, sure, um, I like the word holistic, because I don't believe counseling is just of the mind to holistic when when you talk about counseling is mind body spirit. So not only are we looking at what's going on in the mind, but the mind doesn't operate separately from the body, and separately from spirit, or energy, and genetics. So holistic integrates everything. So, you know, not only are we looking at what thought patterns and, you know, are detrimental to your mental health? Well, no, I don't even like the I know that the word mental health is, is recognized. And I don't know what else I would call it. But it's not just mental health. It's like Holistic Health, because every little bit contributes to the mental health. So when I practice, I look at the people's lifestyle, like are they sleeping? Because sleep has an a massive detrimental impact on mental health? Are they really low in vitamin D? I mean, I can't test that I'm not a medical doctor. But I will always suggest that they go and have a look at their blood work. Because if they're hugely low on vitamin D, or hugely, you know, they're not taking magnesium or just a really simple stuff, then that affects your mental health. You know, are they having bodily symptoms that they think are normal, but actually contributed to their mental health? Like their nervous systems on regulated? And then the energetics of it, you know, are you in a environment where there's yelling and screaming every day or, you know, that plays a part in your spirit and your energetics, which then plays a part on your mental health? You know, so that's kind of the holistic thing that we look at. It certainly is all it all. Everything affects everything else, doesn't it? It's not. Like I think the Western doctors way of treating the what do they do they treat the symptoms instead of treating the cause? It's like, they just look at one thing in isolation. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I think that's probably what spurred me on to, to look at the holistic stuff is, you know, I had like, some really significant sort of adrenal issues, that the Western doctors ah, made me feel horrible. You know, they they made me feel like I was making it up. Yeah, because they didn't have they didn't have an answer for it. So it must have been. Yeah, it must just be all in your head. You know, it takes me back to the description, when psychology was first around of hysteria. You know, like so, you know, women who are young mothers would be diagnosed with hysteria, which means, these days that they're not coping, you know, they might have postnatal depression, or they might have really bad anxiety. But back then, it was just labeled hysteria, and I feel like that has, you know, in the western Doctor world, they don't use the word hysteria, but basically, I was told that I was tired, or bored housewife. And I was working for 40 work. So yeah, that's what made me so passionate about holistic. Hmm. You'd never say that someone in a medical setting these days? No, and I think because psychology was so new. You know, like, it's such an emerging field and the I'm sorry if I bore you with the details of the history and stuff. Like that sort of stuff. but back then they didn't believe that the brain like they didn't know about neuroplasticity. So if someone was in that state, you know, quote unquote hysteria, or you know, soccer or whatever, they didn't understand that that could be changed. They just labeled that person and put them incident in, in an institution. And they never got the chance to actually heal. Yeah, so all these people who were labeled, you know, hysterical or psycho or, you know, needed to be institutionalized. And they didn't believe that the brain could change. So that's where the research is now that the brain can change. And we can mold, mold, neural pathways to be in a better shape than what they were, you know, when we were suffering from mental health or experiencing anxiety or depression or whatever. Yes, you've definitely come a very long way, very, very long. So the there's two, two topics that I love to talk about. And so they are the mum guilt, which I like to put in inverted commas because and the second one is identity. So the way that when a woman becomes a mother, how they see themselves changes. So well, let's let's do the mum guilt first. So, do you have any idea? I'm really intrigued by this? And I'll ask you this question. And you might not know and that's fine. But where did this term come from? Like, how was it created? Is it been like a social media hashtag like? Or is it like people who have to label things we have to call something we have to have a term for everything? What What's your take on that? I think it's, and I don't know, I only know I'm not an expert, or I don't know, like, this is only my opinion. One person. I feel like it's a product of social media, the media. Because when, like when I had my son, I was 25. Like social media had only just started because don't forget, I'm old. I'm, and I wasn't on social media. I didn't look at websites. I just parented from my heart, with my mom's advice, kind of like the traditional way that people would parent without all of this outside influence. And the only time I experienced mum guilt was when I put my son in childcare. And he didn't, he didn't gel with the carer for the first probably three months. But I don't, I can, I felt guilty I did, I felt guilty for dropping him off there. Because he wasn't settled. You know. I didn't feel guilty about going to work because I knew in my mind that without all this external pressure, and whatever else to be a perfect mum, because that wasn't around then you just did the best record that I needed to go back to work for my own sanity. And I did not feel guilty about that. So that was it when Harry was 10 months old. I'm not a maternal person. I'll be the first to say, I'm not a I'm not a person who's in an apron baking a cake, breastfeeding their child at the oven. Like I'm not that person. I work I thrive off work. I thrive off intellectual stimulation. Just being a mum is not enough for me. So never once did I feel guilty to for going to work and making that decision back then. And I did feel guilty for for because my child was quite upset in those first three months. But you know what, once we found the right fit, once we found the right person to care for him in that childcare setting. He absolutely loved it and he thrived. So I didn't have that. That my mum guilt. So I feel like mum guilt is a product of everybody else's judgment of what society should or shouldn't do or be. And then we take that on that we take that those feelings on from externally internally And then they manifest. And I don't think that's right. Oh, yeah, I don't think it's as a man, like, you're going to be very different to me, you know, do you get what I mean? Like, we can't see a social media stereotype of a mum and say, we all have to fit in that round peg, when we're triangles square diamond. That makes sense. And I can sort of sense perhaps the connection, then you talked at the beginning briefly about the personality types. So it's like, everyone will experience things different because of the way just the way they are. Don't get me started about the patriarchal stuff that goes, get started on it. Because I would call myself like a feminist because I hate patriarchal systems, I, it actually makes me feel physically sick to my core. And I don't know whether that's, you know, from my past life, so, you know, whatever happened there, or because I've always had great men figures in my life, my husband is like, absolutely amazing. Like, honestly, like, we share hubs in everything, like, he comes in, and he does the dishes, or I'll go outside and weed the garden or, like he is, yeah, really, really amazing. I'm so blessed to have someone like that. So it's not because I haven't had these, you know, beautiful men, male figures in my life. It's just the systems. And what a mum, the word Mum, I suppose the peaks is, you stay at home, you look after the kids. And that's it. You do all the stuff around the house, you do all the washing. And I feel like that. That's society's mo of what a mother should do look like, etc. We shouldn't be going to the gym because mums shouldn't be doing that we shouldn't be spending money on ourselves because, you know, earning any money. You know, like, all of that is bullshit. Like, I really despise that patriarchal kind of thing. And that is sometimes where I think this mom guilt comes from, like it's generational trauma of having this patriarchal system. That is outdated. And really sexist. Hmm. Yep. So that's the other part of it. Yeah. So it's almost like, because women men the way that they mother is changing. They've got to be reined back in. So they've got to be made to feel guilty to pull them back to this the traditional way that they're supposed to supposed to be mothering. I've used a lot of lately. Yeah, absolutely. And why aren't we, you know, why aren't big organizations, including family daycare as part of their well being program at work? So mothers can return to work when they want to? You know, why do we have waiting lists of hundreds of children at childcare? Like, why aren't we doing something about that? You know, so women can actually get back into the workforce, and do what they love? Or, you know, you get what I mean? It's a big problem. Oh, yeah. So I guess then people experience it differently then, because of how they were parented, what their role model then was from their mother, maybe they feel guilt because they're doing something different to their mother, or what do you think about the way that perhaps the other women and other mothers? What's their role in driving this as well? Because I feel like, I know, we're getting better at it. But I feel like there's a lot of judgment, from mums to other mums and women that don't have children, they're judging mothers. We've got a lot of work to do there, too. I feel Do you agree with that? Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And it really stems back to the basic values and beliefs. And yes, role models come into the values and beliefs of people. So we grow up with a certain set of values. So our core values pretty much don't change throughout our lives. They might change slightly. And, and if you have ever come and done any of my counseling, you know, come and done counseling with me. You know, there's a few key things that I bang on about which probably people get sick of hearing. And one of them is values and beliefs. Because values are our core values. So it might be you know, a set of values that don't change that inherently ingrained in us from from our parents or whatever. And then we have beliefs on top of that. So values are things like, like family, so like, you know, I value family a lot, because you know, I'm very close to my family, I get a lot of support from my family, I love my family dearly. So that is one of my core values is having family around me and having them support me. And, you know, if I go a month without seeing my mother, I'd probably, you know, gets a bit tense, you know, we have a really good relationship. So that's a that's like a core value. And then we have these beliefs on top of that. So beliefs are a little bit more they are what can be changed and influence. And as we grow and evolve, they change and open and all the rest of it. So I feel like everyone has that. But what we need to work on and you talk about moms being judgmental towards other moms, etc. is actually a lack of awareness for our, and I'm going to speak in riddles, probably. Yeah. So pull me up if you don't understand anything, because probably I need to explain it a bit more. But the opinions and judgments of other people towards other people, whether that be mums to mums etc, or non working or non mothers to mothers is a lack of self awareness and reflection. about unconscious bias. Yeah, explain that a little bit. Yeah. So I'll try and put it in simple terms. Okay. So if we think about a drug addict, right? Some people might think that it's their fault, that they can stop anytime that they want, that they have control over what they're doing. And they want to penalize that person. I think that, for me, is a underdeveloped opinion of a drug drug addict, because that has unconscious bias behind it. They don't know what that person has gone through in the in the startup their life, to the trauma that they've experienced, and the depth of the pain and emotional pain that they're trying to numb or, or whatever it might be. They don't need prison, they need healing. So that would be being aware of the unconscious bias, because once upon a time, I would have been the person that said, drug addicts need to go to prison, because they're just ruining life for everybody else, you know, like criminal criminal behavior, etc. But because my beliefs have evolved, I can now see a hole a picture. So instead of looking through a pinhole, we're now looking through a 20 centimeter diameter window. So it kind of makes sense. Yeah. So it's like you, maybe because of the way you grew up, or the way you your parents views where you've got that in. And so you have that until that time where you have whatever happens in your life, for whatever reason, or you start to educate yourself, whatever, you can change your opinion. So that unconscious bias is what you just have in New necessarily without realizing that's just how you see things, I guess. Is that Yeah, yeah, it's funny. Yeah. And there's a there's a saying, and I've got to get it right. You don't know what you don't know. Until you know more. Yeah, so that information, like informed like those informed beliefs. And not everyone wants to have informed beliefs or decisions. It's hard. It's actually very challenging. And it's sometimes it's just easier not to. Yeah. Because you're not going to change somebody else to change their beliefs. Unless they're coming to you because they want to change, which is in my holistic counseling situation. They're coming because they want to be there. Yeah, they pay to be there they want they're paying me to help them to change their beliefs. But if you have someone that doesn't want to change, then there's no way that anyone else is going to check. You can argue with them until the mangoes blue, they're not going to change their beliefs because you told them to. Yeah, when you're talking about this, I'm just reminded of actually my father in law. We caught up with him on the weekend and he's in his early 80s. And we had this discussion about because I said about how childcare is really busy and we're, we're really full up at the moment. He says I do do you accept children from mums who don't work? I said, Yeah, we do. said Ah, I don't I agree with that. You said mums should be home with the children. And I went into this great big rampage about what so what's great about childcare, what's for the children and for the moms and I said, all this stuff, and you just don't know, whatever. I thought you haven't heard a single. I've said, like, literally, you have this as if you've got your beliefs, and you're not changing your beliefs. It doesn't matter how long I went on about my great, big, impassioned views of what I think so great about Chuck. That's great. Yeah, it's a prime example. And the only way that we can help people view the world differently, or view the situation differently as be a good role model. not preach, we don't, I don't preach to people, I don't, you know, lay it on the line of what they have to change. I'd be a good role model. You know, I talk about the science behind it, and you know, why things are better, you know, try and give them information, which doesn't, I don't, with no expectation information with no expectation. You couldn't have given your father in law, all of that information, and then expect it to change for him to change his belief. Because that expectation leads to disappointment on your behalf, which leads to anger on on your behalf. So we have to give people information without expectation. And I think a lot of the time people expect people to change because of their own. You know, if they've shared information, they expect that person to change straightaway. Which is just ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. Cuz then they get disappointed and and then it affects relationships, then it doesn't it? It's like, yeah, absolutely. Yes, so identity, let's talk about that. The reality that when you have a child when you become a mother, that the way that you see yourself changes, and I guess that can also be influenced by society as well, about how you're supposed to see yourself. It really is the words I've heard mothers talk, like, they've experienced, like an identity crisis, basically, who am I, what am I, I only exist for this child. So what does that mean for you know, who I was before? It's in a grieving process to I suppose of the life that's, that's lost? Yeah. Share what you are how you feel about that. I definitely went through that. But probably, and a little bit when when I became a mother, like a little bit, but probably more so when I was forced to make a decision about whether to leave a job or not. And that was a important high up job. And I had this identity crisis around that. But as a mother, I think, this identity crisis, because literally, like, at the start of this year, I had an elderly couple come in, and they said we want to do couples counseling. And I said, okay, like, yeah, like, Absolutely, everyone's welcome. And I think they would have been in their late 70s. Um, he was quite active in the community. So, you know, he did lots of stuff around the, around their local community, and it's quite involved, and she just sat at home. And it just blew my mind that she had no purpose in her life. Other than being at home and doing the stuff at home. So she still hadn't found her identity from when she had kids like 50 years ago, for the last 50 years, she had not had her identity. And whether she even had that identity before she had kids, because don't forget, that was in a different era, like women, you know, to be seen and not heard, you know, married quite young, and that was their purpose, to marry to have children and to look after the house like that was their purpose. Yeah. And she spoke about being really sad and, you know, not looking forward to the future and really resentful that he was out doing things in his community. so I gently sort of spoke to her about finding her identity again. What are the things she loves to do? You know, does she love to go and have coffee with friends? Does she love to go hiking? Does she love to go dancing? And including some of those things in her life again. And she was really she really had a lot of trouble understanding that she can and has permission to to find all those things again. Yeah, that's literally give her permission to find all those things again, because she she thought that that was not okay. Yeah, when you were saying that I was the word permission was going through my mind too. It's like she was actually saying, Is it okay if I actually do this? Like? That's yeah. That's quite fun, isn't it? That's someone's Yeah. Wow. So, the back the mums that I work with, quite often who, you know, either their child's just gone to school, or they're a little bit older, and they're in childcare or the mums going back to work or whatever, is always around identity. And it's also around the self worth. So thinking of yourself as worthy. And I always say to them, Why aren't you worthy? Give me you know, give me a good reason why you aren't worthy to have two hours to yourself on a Thursday night to do whatever you want. Like, why are you not worthy of that? You know, so it's really, that identity thing is, again, I feel like it's patriarchal in society, you know, born from society. And then when social media comes along, it's like, it's amplified, like, 200% with this massive magnifying glass. I, I actually, I know, social media has its place. But it's destructive and damaging. And I can you know, in my other job, I am in high school counseling, high school students. And I just cannot even fathom why they enter into this bullshit on their phones, like I just. And these kids are, like, literally stuck to their phone and have probably the worst self esteem issues that I have ever come across. And it just blows me away. And it saddens me, It saddens me to the core, that these young girls, you know, starting at, say 1312, or 13, probably even know probably 11, they're starting at 11. Like caring so much about what other people think of them. Like, that's what they base their whole life on. And then, of course, then we have the identity stuff that comes later with with moms. And I know that, you know, it might be two different topics, but I think they're into the interplay because of the self worth stuff. Absolutely. I think it's almost scary to think how these young girls now and how they're going to cope with that motherhood. Because of the they've been in this world. I think it's interesting, like people like you and I, and probably a lot of people listening to this did live in a world before social media. So we can look at that and go, like my son, and something will happen. And I'll boost like, ah, that's no big deal. You know, because I'm not I have the hindsight and whatever I've lived that I've lived in a lot longer than him. And I can say that, obviously, that's not very helpful to him. But we know there's a world outside of social media, but for them, their whole world is that tiny, whatever exists on that phone. And it's really quite scary that absolutely, and I agree. And it leads to this identity and, and even identity, and I know, this is the probably not the identity that you're speaking about. But, um, gender identity. You know, a lot of the young people at the moment, you know, that plays into the identity because they have got so much information at their fingertips. It's like, this is like before the internet before social media, etc. You had to go and you had to look up scientific papers and encyclopedias, you know, remember those big Oh, yeah, like 100 of them? Yep. You know, it was it was qualified information. So you had to go and do research. Whereas now you can just type in Google. And it's not quantified information. It's not research backed. It's not evidence based. It's not. So I feel like the kids get overwhelmed. Like instead of just sitting with themselves sitting still within themselves or exploring the outside Oddworld all that information is just like an information superhighway. And it's just bombarding and it's confusing is honestly confusing for them. And I feel like that's the same with moms as well, you know, especially with raising babies, etc. Is that information overload. But I think the identity of mums, I hope that it's changing. And I think it is slowly but it's like, really, really slowly. It's like the snail. Yeah, yeah. And I, I hope that we can instill enough self worth in these mums to say that raising a baby is a two person job, you know, if you have got a partner, you know, that that other partner needs to step up. Or if you're a single mom, that doesn't have that partner, having that support network that they can call on, you know, to be able to take the baby for, you know, a day or a couple of hours or whatever. So the mom can actually fight, like, find herself and do things for herself. And I get it, like, when you're immersed in that newborn stage, you know, like, it's full on like that you live in breathing. Like it's, it's pretty suffocating. Like, you know, you're sleep deprived, your brains not functioning properly, you feel like, you know, you're either, you know, depending on how you feed, you either got the baby stuck to your boob or heating up bottles or sterilizing bottles. The hours on end. Yep. Okay, you do you fall into this world of just Baby, baby, baby. But I think at some point, when the baby gets out of that, being dependent on mum stage all the time, then we have to start exploring ourselves again, as Mum, you know, as as Carmen or Alison. Yeah, as a mum. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And being confident enough to, like you said, ask for help. Using fit like, yeah, it really comes down to it really comes down to but the heart of this, from my perspective, anyway, the building up that self worth, so to feel like, you can ask for help, like, you're worthy enough to have that conversation with your partner and say, Can you please do this? Or I need your help, what can you help with for, you know, reaching out to people and then feeling confident enough in the way that you are parenting in the way that you are? living your own life that you don't feel so influenced by what you see around you, whether it is social media, or what were the what your best friend's doing? Or that kind of thing? Would that be? fair comment? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, definitely. Um, and I feel like teaching our young girls self worth, you know, that's where it really starts doesn't, you know, teaching our young boys how to, you know, be sensitive and all the rest of it, you know, in tune with their emotions and all the all of that sort of stuff, and then with our young girls teaching themselves where. Like, I'm a huge believer of boundaries. I feel like women who don't necessarily have an identity or feel lost in their identity, don't have boundaries, because they feel like they need to please everybody else. And so that's, you know, another thing that I do harp on about is having these boundaries, you know, saying no to things, you know, not being afraid to upset people, because at the end of the day, you have to honor who you are and what resonates with you. And it is kind of like the whole the holistic picture, you know, you've I'm very introverted. So, you know, if I was to if you were to invite me to a big party, Allison, like, if I didn't have an identity, I might say yes, because I feel like I need to appease you by coming. But me as Carmen says, that environment and would really, really drain me. So it's not even about feeling uncomfortable because at this point in my life, I'm okay with feeling uncomfortable. I have a cold shower everyday like, I'm okay with feeling uncomfortable. So it's not about feeling uncomfortable in that environment. Although I would sit, you know, I would feel uncomfortable, but it's about okay, if I go to that party. So say if I go at eight, and I don't leave till 12am, Around 50 people that I don't know, I have to exchange small talk with 50 people that I don't know. That to me would take two days to recover from energetically. Yeah, be that be that draining and that, yeah. But you know, like, maybe 10 years ago, I would have gone to that party. And then and then wondered why I felt like shit for two days afterwards. But you know, like an extrovert. So my mom's really extroverted. So that would be her ideal situation to go to a party with 50 people that she didn't know. And I think that's part of our, you know, part of this identity stuff as well is learning. What gives us energy, what drains our energy, you know, what do we love? What don't we like, you know, exploring all of that stuff. Because that becomes the foundations of your identity, and being more authentic to yourself. Hmm. And actually like recognizing, because I'm, I, I'm sort of guessing, but there might be people listening today that might not have made that connection between that city save being in a situation that wasn't that great for you. And then you didn't realize why you felt pretty ordinary, you know, in the next day or the day after. So making those connections and realizing that there is more, maybe there's more to it than what we think there is if that's the way Yeah, absolutely. And also, it's about because if you have no boundaries, so say, say if I said yes to your party, then you you might feel great about that. But if I was to if I was to have the confidence to say no to your party, that takes a certain level of self worth, from me to say no, because I might think Alison won't like me anymore, because I didn't come to our party. Together. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But I think the more you know, yourself, the more you're self aware about what what works for you, which is part of the holistic counseling process is, is rediscovering what, what works for you. And makes you and maybe for the first time actually looking at that, like, like, we talked about the lady before in your 70s that maybe wasn't even had that self awareness to actually go there. Their whole life maybe? Absolutely. And I feel like the identity comes from the seasons in our life as well. People get lost in the seasons in their life. So we give ourselves labels. So you know, mum is a label. You know, that's a season in our life where we're raising children. But then, you know, maybe after I have the stillbirth, I get, you know, rabbit holed into looking at support groups for stillbirth and everything and then I become Carmen who had a stillbirth. Does that make sense? Oh, Carmen, who works at dot, dot, dot dot, like this, this identity thing comes with these seasons in our lives. But it takes a lot to shed that ego because it is ego. Like when we identify with these things that we attached to. It takes a lot of, you know, courage and bravery to get rid of all those layers. And just be Common. Common. That's it. No labels attached. It's just me. This is who I am. You know, without all of that. Kind of makes sense. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and courageous enough to actually look at yourself. Like take away all those things that you think you are, or that you're seen to be? And just look at, actually, who is this person without? Yeah, without all that stuff? Why? Why do we have this obsession with labels? Like even when I start to speak to you, I asked you what, what do you call yourself? Like, you know, why do we have this thing that we've got to know? It's an E, it's definitely an ego thing. And it's not even like a conscious ego thing. You know, it's like when you say, when you when you meet someone for the first time, you know, say you're at a networking, lunch or whatever. And, you know, you say to people, well, Hi, I'm Carmen, and they say, Hi, I'm Allison. And then I say, what do you do? What does it matter what you do? Yeah. It's I'm here to meet Alison, you know, not Allison, who is the podcast person What do you call yourself? Podcast fears? It's not common the holistic counselor, yes, it's common. Yeah. Because there's so much. There's so much. I don't I don't know if this is the right way. So but there's so much more to pick a person and then just how they, how someone perceives them. So like, he could say, I'm Alison, that, that I, I am a mom of two and they'd go Alright, so that's what you are. You don't do anything else you have nothing else that you do. That's what you are, you know? Maybe pigeonhole. You don't mean, hmm. That's very interesting, isn't it? It is, it's very interesting. It's, and it takes guts to and vulnerability to stand there and say, I'm calm and full stop. Yeah, you're leaving yourself wide open for people to make their own opinions. Which kind of weapon enough to not care about that. Which is when you have when you have that self worth, then you can stand there and say, Hi, I'm Allison booster. And let you know and the way on the other side of things, if you know, if you are meeting someone new or whatever, and you don't want to subscribe to, you know, the labels or whatever. You can use curiosity. So, you know, Hi, I'm Carmen. I like to read, Allison. You know, you say Hi, I'm Allison. And I say, oh, Allison, what are some of your favorite things? Be curious about your person? Yeah. Tell me tell me about what you enjoy doing? Or, you know, yeah, it's not reaching for this, this label to describe someone. And it's almost like you feel when someone tells you the label, you feel like you found out all about them. It's like you've you've created that image, in your mind are what they are. And it's like, well, that's I don't need to know any more about you, you know, but then when you have that conversation, you actually, like you said, Be curious. Yeah, it's a completely different way of looking at it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if anyone will take that tip and try that at the next networking function are the x winning from a meeting some people are really. In spite of all Benko is on Instagram, we are on Facebook. And the sad thing about LinkedIn people told me that I need to know more about LinkedIn, but I'm there somewhere. I do check it occasionally. But yeah, you can just reach out and if you have any questions, you can email me and pretty responsive on on email and pretty try to be pretty responsive, responsive on social media as much as I can, at the moment. And have got one day a week where I'm canceling. Like for the full day. Again, I have to be careful with my energetic so I you know, I'm not I don't want to be a business. That's five days a week. I couldn't handle that. Unless I employ someone else. So yeah, and at the moment, I'm like, completely booked apart from one appointment for October, and which I'm truly truly grateful for. But it doesn't make it easy to get in. But what I say to people is please just always message me because if I get enough people I will open another day. It's just Yeah, balancing that. Yeah, get in touch. Like if you're if you're thinking about counseling or have any questions or just want to ask me a question, like I always am open for those questions. Yeah, that's lovely. And yeah, I think if anyone that's listening today if it's sort of sparked something in them that they think oh, I'd like to know more about that. Yeah, definitely reach out to Carmen I'll put all the links in the description so you'll be able to find it that's yeah, it's that's it you're so you're very very authentic person because you're like you said your your energy it's you have to be aware of yourself so you could go you know, like I think there's this idea in business that business has to be this great aggressive well that you know, the be all and end all everyone has to be busy, busy, busy, busy, busy at the at the expense of everything else in their life. That you're you're saying and you're you are showing that that is not how it works. And you can actually that's, again, you're setting your boundaries, you're respecting yourself your own self worth. So you're living the talk, you're literally living what you what you don't say you're practicing what you preach. You know what I mean? Like you are modeling. This is this is how I want to live my life. This is how I want to run my business. This is what's important to me. So I think that's, that's fantastic. It's, you're very, I'm not perfect. Oh, no one's perfect. Put that out there. Like, you know, I'm authentic 85% of the time, the other 15% I question myself and go, should I be, you know, aggressively marketing to you what I mean, like you always have that, those self reflection points. So, you know, we're not I'm not, you know, always. You've always got to have self reflection and awareness, I think is my point. Yeah, navel gazing. Yeah, exactly. Being still in the moment and absolutely about me waiting. Yeah. It's been a really, really enlightening episode, and I really appreciate you sharing and sharing so honestly, your own storytelling and I'm really grateful for your time calm and thank you. No, thank you, Allison. I'm grateful for the opportunity to be on here. So yeah, thank you. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet. Edge to Ellis Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben habit. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Katie Callahan US singer, songwriter + artist S2 Ep73 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore Maryland, and a mum of 2. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was 6 and grew up there until finishing her first year of College before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of 7 children and comes from a very musical family, she grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started song writing in high school. Her music is very lyric based, in the Americana, folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. She released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get It Right and her latest release The Water Comes Back from 2021, recorded in Nashville at Gray Matters Studio by Matthew Odmark from the band Jars of Clay, Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social medial followers, with them suggesting the theme for each song. Katie is also a visual artist, she studied painting at College it was her minor along with Theatre Performance. She paints primarily in oils and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our song writing styles, explore the difference between expressing ideas with words as compared to painting and discuss being able to ask for what you want. ***This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss*** Katie's website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here. Katie's music appears in today's episode with permission via my APRA AMCOS Online Mini Licence Agreement. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your company. My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore, Maryland in the United States, and she's a mom of two. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was six and she grew up there, living there until she finished her first year of college before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of seven children and comes from a very musical family. She grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started songwriting in high school. Her music is very lyric based in the Americana Folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. Katie released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get it right. Her most recent release from 2021 Is the water comes back, which was recorded in Nashville at gray matter studio by Matthew CodeMark. From the band jars of clay, which are Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social media followers, with them suggesting a theme for each song. This is a lot of fun. Katie is also a visual artist. She studied painting at college. This was her minor along with theater performance. She paints primarily in oils, and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our songwriting styles explore the difference between expressing ideas with words, as opposed to painting, and we discussed being able to ask for what you want. Today's episode contains discussions of pregnancy loss. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a helpful list of international resources which can be found on my podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. Katie's music appears throughout today's episode with permission and via my newly acquired APRA M costs online mini License Agreement, which means I can pretty much play whatever I want from now on. But I really hope you enjoyed today's episode we the moms thank you so much for coming on. Katie, it is so lovely to meet you. And to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. It's a pleasure to heavy. And like I was saying before, I've been meaning to ask you for so long to come on. Because I've been following you for ages on Instagram. And I really love what you do and your energy and just, you know, everything you do. It's really cool. So thank you for coming on. Thanks. I'm really I'm really excited to be here. Oh, you know, people don't ask me a lot of questions. I spend a lot of time with small people. They're more instructional, you know? Oh, yes. It's more of a demand than a question. Yeah. You weren't giving me some food? Yeah. Yeah. So we're about to you in America. I live in Baltimore, Maryland. So it's like it's just an hour about an hour from DC. Yeah, I had. I had someone on from Maryland the other day. And I made the mistake of saying Maryland instead of Mary. I mean, let's be honest. That's that's that's the history that's intended when they named this place. Yep. It was deeply Catholic in the beginning. Surprise. So are you is Baltimore on the Chesapeake Bay? Is that the either disowned or is it knee? The it's right, it's right near there. Yeah, so we're on that the harbor but it connects and feeds into the Chesapeake. So we're like if I drive for like 45 minutes, basically here, you're at the Chesapeake and there's a whole network of, you know, cities and things like that down on the Eastern Shore, which I think is where your guest is from. Because I did listen to that one. Yeah. When I saw that she was from Maryland. I was like, No way. What are the odds? You're gonna double dip and Maryland? In the span of a month or so? Yeah. Like, yeah, not even, like a couple of weeks. That is really cool. That's really cool. done that before. Like, have people from this apartment Australia, obviously, there's a lot of people. I've had a lot of Melbourne people on. But yeah, that's cool. So have you always lived there? And not always lived here? No, I came for college. But I was I my dad is, was in the American military. He's in the army. He's a pediatrician. And so I was we moved a bunch of places. But then when I was six, we moved to Hawaii. And I lived there through all of my school years through the first year of college. And that summer, then we they sort of relocated to this part of the world and I this is where I've been ever since. That's a bit of a different climate change going from one would wonder why one would do that. And I wonder every winter I feel the same way like, oh, no, it's happening again. So I didn't get pretty cold there. Were you you know, honestly, I'm complaining it's it's pretty moderate here. It's no it's probably but only in like January February, it stays in like the low 40s High 30s through most of the winter, it's cold for me. I'm cold all the time. But um, but it's really it's really not. We don't get like, you know, not like a further north they get feet of snow and things like we don't, every now and again, that will happen and everyone will panic, but I'm just gonna live. What? Because we talk in Celsius over here. And I want to find out what 30 and 40 Oh, well, that's four degrees. That's freezing. That's really validated. I think he's minus one. Like yeah, no, that's cold. Yeah, like when we we don't get snow like nowhere in Australia that on on normal land. Normally. Not on a mountain. Snow unless we're up high. And like that's cold like out I wind when like today it's you wouldn't be able to tell from what I'm wearing. I've got a massive big turtle neck roll jumper on it's meant to be spring almost summer here. And it's I don't know, maybe 14 And that's cold. Yeah, so like, Yeah, well, hang on. What's that in yours? That won't mean anything to you. I was just I just average what you said between the two. So I figured it's it's it's it's 57 I wouldn't be wearing a jumper jumper or Sweater Jacket. I would be I would be cold. I would be cold. That's kind of what today was outside too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's that transitional getting between between the things I find it to be this spring time, and impossible. Give so you are a musician, and also a painter as well. I shouldn't forget that. Let's talk music first. How did you first get into music and playing instruments? Oh, well, we are I come from a pretty musical family. I am one of seven kids. Somebody at one time was talking to me and they were like so when you weren't cosplaying the Partridge Family, like what were you doing with your life. But that was kind of what our growing up was. We all grew up. My family is pretty religious. And so we all played in like the church worship band. And that's kind of where we all learned how to play instruments and music. And for me singing was my primary thing. When my older brothers went to college, they took with them their accompaniment skills and so I had to learn how to you know, play something to keep me company. So I learned how to play acoustic guitar. And yeah, and then I guess Yeah, that's so we all have played music together for gosh, as long as I can remember. And I just kind of kept doing it. My brothers both still play. And my sisters they'll still saying but less formally. And or just have like releases and I just sort of took the took the ball and ran and kept doing it. Yeah, and I really fell in love with songwriting. When I realized it was like a thing that you could do you know what I mean? I was like, Wait, hold on, like, you can take a whole idea and makeup, like it's brand new thing out of it. And I just, I loved it. And so I started, you know, in high school and, and, and just kind of never, never stopped. Never stopped doing it. With you know, pauses here and there for various reasons. But yeah. Oh, that's great. So you play. Do you play? Sorry, I've just been distracted by a cat. I can't We can't if it's my cat or someone else's cat. So I'll stop now. Sorry. That was sorry, Katie. So your mind is up here too. I expected to interrupt. Like having chats with people's pets when they want to. So you play guitar? Do you play piano as well? Do you play lots of different instruments? I don't, I'm not a multi instrumentalist. We learned how to play Google Play. And, you know, my whole a public school education. Because you learn to do that along with a recorder. Exactly. So so but that is pretty much the extent of my instrument playing and I really have focused on on voice and on singing. I've had on enough teachers throughout since I was like, 12. But ya know, I've always focused on singing and always felt a little ashamed of that. I suppose a little embarrassed, but that was like, the only thing you know, only thing that I do. But you know, every now and again, it occurs to me that like, I'm really proud of it. I'm really proud of that being my primary instrument and I love it. I really love its relationship to my body and I love Yeah, yeah. So like I you know, I'm I'm in that way I play I play acoustic guitar in a in a medium minus way. And I'm a singer. That's it. That's it, I am. Now there's no shame in that, because I'm the same. I cannot play. I can play the piano just to bash out chords to work out, like songs in there. But I can't play anything in public, like well enough to play in front of people I just seen. And I shouldn't say just sing because we're not just singers. Because that's pretty awesome. But yeah, that's Yeah, I know. I'm like, Yeah, I think so there. I mean, like, the freedom to like when you're in front of somebody in a crowd, and like, it's only the singing Oh, my God, the freedom of that. Because like, you know, when you're just like, trying, it's sort of this like grinding out like, I have to get it right. And I have to do the right thing. And the time I'm thinking about is what my you know, like, where my my fingers are in the fretboard and not really, you know, coming into the song The way that I feel like it could be but yeah, that's a that's a total gift. When you get to do that. It's pretty special. I think. Yeah, that's something people forget is like, singing in itself is, is it? Like you said, it's a whole it's a whole body experience? Oh, my God, it's yeah, you know, and then with your performing, like, the connection, and the emotion and everything, like, it's not literally just a thing coming out your mouth, you know, it's, it's everything I've just loved, that I've loved. I just recently started lessons again. And with somebody that I studied with, like, eight years ago, when I was like pregnant with my oldest, and this last time I saw him and then you know, seeing him again, it was just it was a wild experience, just the difference of time. But also the reminder of just all the all the parts of your how your voice is really just trying to put you in your body. Like how singing is just really about living in your body feeling what your body needs at any given point. And reminding it that it can I just like I for you just forget, you just forget what it's like to to like to learn that again. And it's been both, like really humbling, because I forgot. Forgot all of it. And, and I've been doing it, you know, I don't want to say I'm doing it wrong. But like there have been so many times where I've struggled where like if I just remembered that would have been so helpful, you know? Yeah. Now is the series so much that goes into it. And I think that yeah, it's important to say that, that we're not just saying there's so much going on How would you describe your songwriting style? Songwriting style? Um, I would say, I'm a I'm a folk singer, primarily. I tell a lot of stories with songs, I process a lot of things through song. And so like Americana Folk, that kind of spirit is definitely where I tend to land. Pretty lyric heavy. Like that's really my focus agreement on singer birth. And so what the singers is the most important part for me, we just find it because my my spouse says he was a drummer a long time. And so like, sometimes I'll be listening to a song. And like, not even, I mean, like, oh, I hated that line. He's like, What line? He's listening to everything else at the song. And he's not even thinking about, like, what the song is actually saying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What about big differences? But I'd say I'm a folk singer, who writes primarily folk songs, and sort of the way they're produced feels a little bit irrelevant to me. That's the heart of it. Yeah, yep. And I've listened to your music. Thank you for sharing your music with the world because you have a divine gift and your voice. You've got such a beautiful voice. It's like, I can't even describe it's like, it's would you say you're an alto? You're like, yeah, deeper yet. But yet so rich? Yeah, I really, really like your voice. Yeah. Sorry. Thank you. It doesn't matter what I say about it. It you have a beautiful? I appreciate it. No, keep saying. No, yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate you listening all that I appreciate it. It's great. It's definitely a labor of love. Yeah. And you also through your Instagram, you share your journey of songwriting each month with a different theme that you put the call out for you, your followers to get involved in. Tell us a bit more about that. Yeah, oh, my project, this has been, I decided that, at the beginning of this year, I thought to myself, you know, I am one of those artists who could get really caught up in the preciousness of when and how I write a thing or make a thing like, well, I have to have this much time. And these must be the conditions and this must be the place. And I didn't want I didn't want those limitations. I wanted to think about songwriting. You know, in addition to the those magic moments, which I believe are very true and real. In addition to those magic moments, I wanted to be able to work at songwriting, like like a craft, like how is what is the practice of writing a song. And I don't know why I did this. But I asked everyone on Instagram to give me their suggestions. For what what would be good song topics. And some people took it seriously, and gave me very serious topics. And some people wrote like spaghetti and stuff like that. So we'll see when I put them I put that every year I put them on this little box and I shake it up every month and I pick one out and I yeah, I build a song around it at the top of every month and I'm I'm to be honest, like a very terrible at the production part of the recording part. Isn't that making If so, but I made it like I want to be able to put out these demos. They're just demos I can I release perfectionism enough to release these very imperfect versions of songs that maybe aren't all the way work through or, you know, maybe weren't my idea, can I can I release these things in in both the spirit of like, good fun, but also honesty and sort of a vulnerability in them. But it's been like a very challenging practice, but also like a really, I don't know, like an interesting sort of study, you know? Because we've had some weird ones. What, what do you reckon is the weirdest one that you've had? 111 once was unicorns and glitter. That was a weird one. I didn't know how we were gonna get around that one. We had dating apps that was I remember that was I've never done any of that. But the people feeling like the, like the gift of people sharing their experiences for that one was like, like flooring, like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. This is what your life is right now. That was really good on I don't know what else we had. We've had What if today was your last day? That was really intense. We've had But the most interesting thing is sort of like taking the idea that I can see like, I can sort of, like feel where the person was coming from, like, the very first month was ease, you know, and so like, the idea is coming to this with like a spirit of like, I'm not going to force this, I'm not going to stress about it. And then realizing sort of just like sizing out, like, what is this? What does this actually feel like? And how does it work within me? So like, with ease, like others, and nothing, there is not an easy boat. I'm gonna overthink this so hard. So like with, like, how to lean into both, but like the reality of my experience while dealing with these, you know, themes that maybe I would not have picked voluntarily has been I don't know, it's really interesting. It's really interesting and fun, and I'm not gonna do it again. I'm not gonna lie, but um talking to Mormons, but it has been a really good exercise, I think. Yeah, like, honestly, I think it's incredibly challenging. To do that, to say, I'm gonna write a song about a thing that means absolutely nothing to me, like that you can't resonate with that you can't draw on experience, because I'm the same as you. When I write, it's got to be something that I feel and it's got to be something that's, you know, I've experienced or I can relate to, I find it. I mean, I have written a few songs for like, electronic dance music, where it's, it's literally just lyrics because I imagined myself on the dance floor, and it's all very frivolous. And it doesn't, it's not the time for big, deep and meaningful, you know, my real proper writing. Yeah, it's got to have some depth, it's got to have some, some background to it. It can't just be blah, blah, blah. So yeah, that would be really hard to do so good for you for challenging yourself in that way. Again, I'm not sure it was wise. But it has I you know, what I did get, I got a song out of it for a new project I'm recording and so you know, if all else goes to pot, at least I have that. And I, you know, that makes me feel proud that like, oh, I can work sort of in a pressured situation and create something that I'm proud of. And yeah, no, I think the pressure like that time constraint on yourself, too. Yeah. I feel very uncomfortable with with pressure. I deliberately put pressure on myself is yeah, I'm not gonna do it again. It's been great. Well, it's lasted but yeah, not not returning to that. Way is the sign of the seed. He is why is this If so and says it should find his or Wayne Blasi, be this spring time, and even positive. Now, I want to mention to you it's been 12 months since you released your album, which is called the water comes back. Yeah. So you share that share with us about the experience? Where did you record that album? Yeah, the water comes back is it's the second full length album I've done and it is, you know, it was such a crazy, it was a crazy thing I grew up, like I said, it's sort of playing church music and in the church, and my favorite, you know, my favorite bands are all Christian bands and things like that. And one of them was called jars of clay. And they, you know, there were bands that I really was very, they felt like to me, I don't know how to say it, they didn't ever shy away from all the big feelings. And a lot of Christian music does a lot of you know, whatever, Christian quote unquote Christian music does not deal with hard or difficult things. And they have felt like there was a lot of permission in their music and in their songwriting style because it wasn't particularly genre, you know, sort of, and I just and they're very lyric heavy and told a lot of stories, and I always loved them, even as I moved out of out of church music and out of that world. I've always really appreciated them and after, you know, a project in a friend's basement over three, you know, over three years kind of a thing, like just trying to get myself going again, because it's been a really long time. Since I've been anything like that. I dropped them online at their info at you know, their website, email address, just being like, hey, hey, thanks for everything you've done for me. And, you know, a little bit of shade where like, I just did this project and you know, I wouldn't have ever written songs have not been for you guys bah bah bah lovey laughs and to my violent amazement, they responded, I got a response from Charlie who played the keyboard in the band. And, you know, in passing was like, you know, if you ever want to record let let us know. And about two months later, I realized I had sort of a stash of songs. And I wrote back, I was like, a thriller. Oh, he put me in Matthew, Mark, and he, he now runs a studio that they all own together, so. So they have a studio, it's in Nashville, and they recorded in it for the last few albums. And while they've all sort of, like, they only come together once a year to do like this Christmas concert, that's a benefit from a charity that they created, called Blood water mission. They don't you know, in the meantime, they use this space to do you know, production for people like me, you know, for local artists and strangers from Baltimore, who happened to send emails. But what was nuts about it was like, I emailed them, it had to be, it was like, you know, January, maybe February of 2020. And so we had our initial conversations, and then our world shut down over here, you know, all the way and so not only then were these wonderful people willing to chat with me about doing this future project. They also then we did like, Zoom co writes with Matthew and Mark and Heseltine, who is the one of the singers from from Jaws of Life in the band. And a guy named Luke Johnson who, who's in a different band at anyway, so I was able to do these things that just like were unfathomable to me over zoom in, you know, like, while the world is all the way shut down, and, and I got to go, I flew down there in January 2021. You know, everybody very scared of everything and masked and all that stuff. And but we were able to record the whole thing in a in sort of a, a whirlwind two weeks, yet. Yeah. And it was, it was wild. It was amazing. It was, you know, tense, but it was, it was really wonderful. And I'm so I'm just so grateful. So grateful. That is an awesome story. I love that. It's like, did you when you were writing to them? Did you think oh, I shouldn't be doing this? You know, where there? Was there any doubt that you were going to write that initial email? And then 100% I probably wrote it and rewrote it, you know, like, 60 times, and then I spent the next whatever how many days being like, why would you ever send that email to those people? That was so ridiculous. You know, and you think everything you do is so ridiculous until there's some evidence that like, No, it wasn't. Actually it was fine. Yeah, 100% definitely retraced this, this little digital steps a lot, a lot of times. That is just such a wonderful story. I love that. Yeah. Good Anya. And there's some lovely photos, I'm guessing that some of the photos you've sent me from that recording session. The actually that's from the recording session I just did in August. So I went back down and work with them again, I work with them again, for a new project that'll come probably April of this coming year. So we're just sort of at the on the cusp, you know, that big wave that comes where you're about to do like all the publicity and all that stuff and all the prep that goes into it. So I'm sort of like a about to be in the deep end but I'm not quite there. But yeah, I recorded a new project down there which was a lot more relaxed a little less COVID II and less less for that and just a real yeah a real delight to be back down and and there's something about building relationships with people that way and the trust that you have that that makes you know, rounds two and three and four or whatever so much so much more I don't know life giving you doubt yourself so much less Yeah, and yeah, and there's just there's so much to gain from I think for me anyway for building those relationships over time. Hmm No well done. It sounds like yeah, it's gonna be a lasting sort of connection that you've created that's really exciting. For sure, yeah. Yeah, love it there's no way to shame is refusing. Want to talk about your art as well that you're a painter Yeah, tell us all about that. Oh, man, that's a harder one to get into. You know, that is one of the ones that I studied painting in school in college. It was my minor, along with theater performance. But a funny degree I have, but it is, it's something I certainly love. And I paint primarily in oils. I do a lot of mixed media work, and things like that. Yeah, it's definitely one of those things that's fallen to the wayside a lot more, especially as I've been, especially, I guess, in this phase of my life, as in this motherhood phase. It is. It's, you know, it's messy, and it takes up time and space in ways that other art forms don't. Yeah. Man, this is, this is like, it's like, it's just, it's so it's not effortless. That's not what I'm trying to say. But it comes. So naturally, it's, it's so much like, you know, like an inhale and exhale. And it's just like, I love it so much. I love it so much. And that was when I was like, oh, man, this is this, I missed this, you know, I really miss this and the ideas that move differently, you know, in paint than they do with words or, or even with music, you know? And, yeah, yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's interesting. Because I've, recently, because of this podcast, and the people I've met, I've sort of gotten into trying painting, which, and I really enjoy it, and I just mess around, there's no structure with mine. And it is so different, isn't it, like, the way that you can express yourself? And an artist said to me, they can't imagine writing music or, you know, things with words. And I, I've struggle with the other side of it to get my point across without words. So it's like, you know, what, I mean? Like, how do you sit down? Sort of expression of your creativity? Oh, that's such a good question. I think, I think that I don't know, I'm trying to think now at the I was much better as a student at, at being willing to let the image be the message. And whatever somebody got from it, Soviet or like, you know, the the brevity of the title, letting that be the whole message, or like, the spark that made somebody curious about something else that made them maybe look twice at an image where they would not have looked twice before. Yeah, and like, you know, I've I, in my, one way that I've gotten back into visual art, in the last few years is doing these little, these little haiku squares, or four by four squares that I, you know, sort of abstractly paint and then sort of build on with whatever I have around, you know, the, the glue or varnish or like little things that I just have sitting around, and I write a haiku, you know, a 575. And I'll build sort of the image around around that. And I have these little tiny, these little tiny, you know, squares that I have that have, it's like art, but it's also words, and I wonder now just just like listening to that, I wonder if that is, like an element of me not willing to let the image be itself anymore. Because I mean, so far to songwriting, though, like, like, I can't, maybe I don't trust, you know, that the image is enough. Yeah. Or trust the view, even the consumer to take, you know, to take what they will take and, you know, and if it's different than I intend, so be it, you know, that's a Yeah, it's a real exercise. Interesting. That's, that's a really interesting idea that I hadn't even considered before. Yeah, cuz my son, my little boy, who's seven, he asked me, we had this conversation about how can you tell what the painting is about? And I said, it's really up to the person looking at it to work out how they want to interpret it. And then I thought to myself, that's sort of, I mean, that's fine. But then, are they missing the point? Are they missing what the artist wants them to say? Or is that okay, is that part of the whole thing? You know, what I mean, like, and I know, even in songwriting, unless you're extremely explicit with your Lyric like this, this this, this is like, it's no other way you could, you know, understand. You think there's songs that have been written about really different things to what they come across. So it's happening everywhere all the time. Exactly. Right. Right. And to some extent, there are lots of artists that prefer that right. Like there are lots of artists who are like, please don't understand exactly what I'm saying. Yeah, Please be misled. Like that's like, this is a silly example. But that song, you know, closing time closing time then the song is about his his kids being born. Not about a bar closing, you know, even though so so it's like a. It's like I'm gonna write this. I know you're gonna I know you're not gonna get exactly what I'm saying. That's gonna Delight me. That's part of the thing. By it. Yeah, exactly. Right. I'm definitely somebody who wants to be understood. I'm not sure. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? I don't know how big the Enneagram is over there. But I am not but I might not. It might be bigger than what I think it is. Because I don't know everything. You know what I mean? How do you spell it? E N N? D A gra M, I think and the growl? Yes. Yep. Oh, yeah. You mean? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So they're, you know, they're different types. And every type has a distinct like, desire and a distinct fear and whatever. And like the the large picture is, like, everybody's a little bit of everything. But everybody also has like, their own distinct little number. And like this is, for me, it's just it's been useful map specifically relationally just trying to like get a lot of empathy both for myself and others. But but my type is, is always wants to be understood, longs to be understood, but also wants to be very elusive. So it's exactly the tension that you're talking about. Like, it's like, I want you to get it but don't get it. Done. Tom looks so close, but pleased that he's challenged that one isn't that smelly? I mean, it sounds silly. But it but it is it's like it's like, I don't want to be obvious, but also please understand exactly what I'm saying. And if you don't, I'll be devastated for weeks. That's fine. I'm gonna do that I've never done like, I did, like, you know, the personality, like whether you're high or a J or I don't know. So yeah, that's Myers Briggs. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, but this one, I'm gonna have a crack at that one. That's really, I must say, I like I want this. I think this is why I struggle with just straight out visual art because I want people to understand what I'm saying. Because it's like, why would I do this is me, why would I do it? Unless my point comes across? I don't know that. That's that's just me. I have a very my sisters listening to this. She'll agree I have a very intense need to control things. The way I want them to read? Yeah, yeah, I'm getting better as I get older, to let go of control. And perfectionism, but it's truly work. It's truly work. It's truly work. And, and it takes a like, you know, perfectionism sounds cute, you know, you can be like, a perfectionist, but it's really deeply damaging. And, and, and it can really lead to a lot of self judgment and others judgment and it you know, it doesn't really serve it doesn't really serve and like I you know, I don't think I even realized that I was a very grown up person, like, Oh, this is actually not a compliment. No, this is actually hindering you quite a bit in your journey. So, yeah, yeah, I think age probably has a lot to do with that like aging perspective. And it's like that yeah, the best way I can describe my self is in this little anecdote from when I was five and I was singing at our school concert and the teacher was holding the microphone for me and I took a put my hand on it and moved it closer because she wasn't holding it in the right spot. And that's I sort of say that so you need to know and that same conclusion Oh, I love that so much. That's a great my five year old up here with someone take my well on that segues beautifully into your children, can you share how many children you have? You don't have seven days? Oh my God, no, no one should have seven now. Anybody who wants me to that seven, that's fine. A lot of personnel Ladies I have two I just have two kids, two daughters one is going to be nine and the other is five, five and a half. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, they're really fun, really precocious, super smart. Much more confident than I ever was certainly teach me things every day. are, you know, they are deeply Creative Kids, which is really fun for me to bear witness to because they're creative in different ways. And louder than I wish I was a kid. So, so it's like, they're creative. And also, like, demonstrative ly. So versus like, I was always a little bit ashamed. You know, for most of my life just kind of hid. I literally turned our closet. We had like a closet, where we would like would dump our backpacks at the end of the day. And I it was not big and I like that. I don't remember how it happened but there was a desk in it and I just like adapted that was like my little space do my little thing you know? Katie in a closet that's good. And that's what I was like at the chats all you need to know Oh, that's hilarious. I can just visualize that this little person sitting in the closet. Oh, man. Oh, so your girl sat in classes? They're they're doing their thing out in the world. Yeah, yeah, definitely doing their thing out in the world. And I love that honestly, they are real teachers for me. Um, and you know, and that showing me things that I I don't want to teach them you know, they're doing things that I wish I had learned as a kid versus like doing something that I you know should undo or you know, controlling them which is really a gift and when I can actually gain the perspective to see that it really is a gift for sure. Yeah, it's interesting like my is that your cat? Did your cat is you okay all right, yeah. I suppose it is a tight end I can't let my cats in here because they both got bills on their collars. So one day I was in here recording like actually properly recording vocals and I didn't realize the cat was in here next minutes again was a really good time. Oh, the nerve. I know you know I so I record this is my this is the third floor of our house. But it's like a you know, it was an attic. So it's you know to go. Yeah, let's shape it's not insulated. And so I have like a little recording like area but it's not it's not particularly sound proofed at all. And his little cat areas back behind it and so almost every single time I'm like doing a quick recording he's like is lit right now. Why? No? Every time you take scratch scratch scratch scratch was like yesterday I was recording a podcast How about seven in the morning? I don't usually do them that early but it's the time it was a Sunday afternoon in Los Angeles. And the wall that is right in front of like literally this far in front of where I'm sitting next on to our ensuite so my husband's in there having a shower and the fans on and then I never knew started squealing and I'm just like oh my god I'm trying to smile and just think this did not come through I didn't I don't know how it didn't it was a miracle sound engineering was amazing. Maybe this will stick and then I give it credit for I don't know it's like a one way sound only you can hear it to feel sensitive about it. Nobody else can hear but one like my window to my neighbor's is right here and every now and then the next door neighbor's dog will start up and he's actually if you listen really closely in because I just use the same introduction each time you can hear him man I'm getting I'm getting so many So, in terms of being a mum and having your daughters, how did that sort of fit in amongst your use of music? Were you able to you were recording or doing things or writing, you know, as they were children, babies, you know, that kind of stuff? That's it? Yeah, that's a great question. I, I always a little bit, I'm a little bit embarrassed when this question comes up, getting lost with it. I, so my life is, I mean, though, the rhythm of my life ended up being a little bit unorthodox, in that I was married very young, and divorced, very young. And, and then sort of married younger, to a much older, and in the course of that period of life, I think I just sort of fell, folded myself into a shape that fit the life he already had. So, you know, I moved into his home, and all my paintings, you know, I shoved them into closets, and I, you know, I kind of like tried to make my stuff as an invasive as possible, you know, and then I got pregnant within, you know, a month or two of us being married. And so not only was I newlywed in this new sort of life, I also had a baby. So suddenly, like, I felt like an invader, like, like, even the presence of my daughter, like, I had to be almost apologetic about everything about the way that we were changing my husband's life, from the sound in the house, you know, to, like, I was exclusively feeding her to, you know, like, I didn't, I didn't want to push any thing, or be too much, or take up too much space in anybody's world. And that, you know, then I, we had our second daughter three and a half years later, and, you know, it's kind of more of the same, it was a little bit, I'd say, a little bit more comfortable. And the idea that, like, we lived in this house, and it should look, it should look like it, we should be comfortable, existing, you know, in our space with our things, and babies are messy and loud and disruptive, and like, this is what I how I should embrace this all. But like, you know, throughout, throughout all of that I was I was playing music, in my, in the church setting. And, and that was about it, you know, I have had a few songs sort of that I written very periodically, over, I don't know, probably like 12 years. Before I really was like, I'm going to I'm going to record these I'm going to record the songs. And it was actually a friend from the church setting. Several of them that ended up helping me do that. But instrumentalists and also a producer. But, you know, all of that work is really, for the most part internal, and it's not super disruptive to a larger or larger home narrative. And I yeah, I think, um, you know, when I even when I left the church, which was sort of like a big deal, for me, that's a big, you know, it's a it's something that I had my whole life, and I was sort of trying, like, coming awake to things that I'd never really considered and, you know, ways in which I had been, that all these behaviors of hiding and of fitting a mold had been informed, you know, by that sort of education, spoken or unspoken from that environment. And, but all that work, again, was internal. So I think honestly, like, I'm, I don't think I would have tried again, I don't think that I would have started recording that first project, which again, was like 12 years of songs that recorded over three long years, you know, tediously, in someone's basement, I don't think that I would have even tried to do that had I not had my daughter's because through them was how I began to see and understand there was a self worth pursuing and saving. Not that I live for my daughters, but rather my daughters deserve to see me live. You know, and so that they can, they can do the same for themselves. Because the last thing I would want for these exuberant, you know, bright lights is for them to think that they should be folding themselves in any particular way, other than the way that they that they, you know, that they want to be. So, yeah, so that that's a very long winded way of saying I think I'm learning a lot even right now. That's pretty powerful. Isn't it like that you? You were so aware of the way you were living? The reflection that would have have on them? Like, that's massive. You know, a lot of people wouldn't even have that, you know? What's the word like a self actualization of actually, you know? That makes sense. Yeah. Massive. Its massive. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting, especially lately, a lot of this new music that I'm working with has a lot to do with. Like, the things that I, that I never learned how to do. And one of those things I've realized is is like to want, like, how to want and express want and desire and how to you know how to do that without and take that space up and be like, Yeah, I want to do that. I don't really particularly care if you don't want to do that, like I do, you know, how to, you know, how, what does that mean? You know, how can I differentiate my identity from the fact that maybe it doesn't agree with everybody else's want? And, you know, and like seeing in my oldest, like, say, I don't know, you choose? I don't know, you choose or, and like already seeing evidence that like there is there may be as evidence of, of, of my lack of ability to express one and teach one to them. So that like, you know, that sets a fire and you're like, Oh, God, I don't want that. Yeah, I don't want that for you. You know, I want to know exactly what you want. Even if you think it's gonna make me uncomfortable. I want to know exactly what you want. You know, that series? Yeah. And it's interesting. I had a conversation this morning, I recorded a podcast, we're talking a lot about people pleasing. And it's like, you feel like you have to say yes to everything, because you're going to offend someone. And that just reminded me, it's like, you're allowed to speak your mind, even if the other person is not gonna agree with you or not going to come along with that or whatever. You don't have to be worried about offending people. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because even if you do it, chances are it's, it's probably their problem. Yes, that'll be their thing to sort out. Yeah. And that was exactly what we said, too. It's like, it's, I think we get so caught up in that the response we get from someone, we think that it's all about us, just because it's directed at us. But really, it probably has nothing to do with us at all. But we're also egocentric beings that we think it's funny. Way to go listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I will send you money. While we're talking about the church, I want to mention if this is right to go there that you made an awesome post on your Instagram today. Rather than may describe would you like to take take the listeners to this and where it came from? And I guess the points you were making in it. So it's very intriguing. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, I so I have a I have a song. It's called witches. It's on the water comes back. And in it, the whole point of the song, basically, I went on this retreat in Ojai with two really amazing women leaders, once named Lisa Ganga, she's a musician as well. And the other is Dr. Hillary McBride. And she's a psychologist, and she's an author. And she writes a lot about embodiment. And that sort of is what that whole retreat was about, like the retreat was about sort of, like unifying, you know, our insides and outsides, which sort of culturally we've been taught to separate. And so I went on this retreat actually went twice. And I met this, like, sort of incredible group of women, and you just are like, you know, feminine identifying folks. And what you what I took away from that was just sort of like how all of us, all of us there would probably on some level, you know, have been burned at the stake. If we were born $500 Earlier, foreign did nothing. But yeah, so So I wanted to write a song that sort of emphasized the sort of the plight of just being sort of anybody who existed outside of a hetero patriarchal norm, and in a reclamation kind of way. So that's what that song is about. And the second verse is about is about Eve. And the lines are, it's Eve, basically the premises if if, you know, the prevailing narrative is that Eve ruined Adam. But what if the real fault of Eve was not that she, you know, gave him the fruit to eat? but that she kept him from doing the work of finding the fruit himself. And that's really her curse. Now, it's just assumed that we're just going to always do the work as women, you know, or whatever. So anyway, in the post, I had a, there was a print of, of Eve and the snake and I recreated it with a T shirt, and I drew boobs on a t shirt, and then I had an apple and a little stuffed snake and I basically yeah, just sort of parodying the, you know, the whole the whole visual narrative of that story. I love that take on it. I love that because the thing I've always struggled with, like I went to, I was baptized Presbyterian, but I went to a Catholic school, because it was just the nearest one to our house, really. I always thought, Well, Adam had to eat that apple. She didn't force it down his throat. Like that's the thing. I always just kept thinking, but why I don't get this like, yeah, I don't know, I just really frustrated me. So I'm having my little fella who's seven. Digby. He's starting to ask questions about religion. And they were teaching them about, like Easter, he wanted to understand about, you know, the Easter story. And um, yeah, oh, here we go. Like, I always just say to him, Look, some people believe this. Other people believe that, like, it's up to you to decide what you want to believe in. And I'm not like, I don't eat meat. And I don't force that on anyone else. My family like religion, I'm not going to force that on anyone else. My politics, my politics, I do kind of, I don't want to say I force it on them, but I make them understand things. That, you know, it's up to everyone to decide what they want to do. And then I think that respect to allow people to make the choices either way, you know, to be to live in a society that we can allow, you know, differences and not allow that to divide us. So violently, I guess, it goes back to what we were saying about the wanting like, can I say what I want and be interested both in like my own sense of self and the other person's sense of self that like, I can separate those two things that what and separate myself from my ego, like, No, I am not the center of the universe, it does not, you know, my center doesn't have to be their center and and is still valid, even if it's only mine. And that's such a that's such a hard thing. Yeah, to learn. And it's so great that you're telling your kids that now you know what I mean? All the things they don't have to unlearn later. It's really important to a lot and I mean, I'm sure there's gonna be something there. So I'm sure probably politics, but but on politics, but I do want to make sure you've got your midterm elections coming up shortly. And I love the posts that you're sharing around that there was the the advertisement where the little girl, she's 11 or 12. And she comes up to the counter and says, Oh, I've heard you've got babies for adoption. And the lady says, Oh, you're too young to adopt. And she's like, but I'm old enough to have a baby. And it's like, this the ludicrous see, like, I I'm, I don't know, I find it really. I feel very compassionate. I feel a lot of love for you guys over there. What? What is going on? Feel for women over there particularly? Just got it makes me so cross? Yeah. And I can't imagine won't be like living living that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I am in an incredibly privileged position in that, like, that is not a choice at this point in my life that I'd have to make, you know, I, but, you know, I, I'll tell you, when I, when I lost a pregnancy was probably the most affirming experience of choice I've ever had, you know, because you realize how much you do want something. And, and, you know, and then if I want something this much, what's the equal and opposite, you know, the opposite might be somebody really doesn't and shouldn't have to, shouldn't have to, and shouldn't be able to make a choice, a choice for themselves and, you know, in our, in our culture is so rot and so racially fraught, and, and so much of our politics have to do with, with with class and with with money and who has it and who doesn't, and, and that, you know, this is just another example of how the people with the least who have been sort of forced to have the least over the course of our of our country's history are going to suffer the most again, you know, and this is just another example. Yeah, it's a really that's really tough and, you know, I live in a state that's primarily choice leaning, and sort of is almost never at risk for not not being that way. So again, that's an incredible privilege I have, you know, like, I don't really have to worry about my immediate surroundings and friends here, but there, there are plenty of other places not very far away that don't have that. Yeah, it's just I just, I find it really unfathomable, like, and I'm not throwing shade on America at all. I'm just saying it's like, it just seems to me like such a basic, right. I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And it's perpetuated by white men, you know, like this thing have been? I feel like we've gone from you know, Adam, Wyoming to another. It's just it's. And I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And anyway, if you're in America, and you can vote, go vote and make your vote count, please. Yeah, please. Now it's time to register like now that the registration is going to start closing. So yeah. So when is it? When's the actual day? Like, when can you do go on one day and vote over there? Is that what you can I just got my early ballot, if I wanted to use that I could send it in. I just got it this week. So I could send that in starting I think now and then it might be next week. I think it's the two weeks preceding because November. I want to say that A is that right? Yep. The eighth is our election day. Yeah. Rados is usually the first Tuesday. That's what it is this year. Yeah, a lot of you know, a lot of important motions on a lot of ballots. It's midterms, and so people don't vote as much. So if you're, you know, if you're American, please, please vote in this midterm election. It's really important. And you guys you like over here we have to vote like it's the law to vote. No. Yeah. Which has its own sort of ups and downs on either side. Yeah, but over there, you get to choose if you vote, which has its own ups and downs as well. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's so complicated, isn't it by like people being limited by whether or not they can vote with our felony laws and things like that. And also just like, just a fundamental discrimination, like ID laws, and there's all sorts there's all sorts, like, keep people from voting here too. So it's almost like people are afraid. Well, that's the reason for everything. Isn't it? Like the fear? Yeah. Yeah, that people vote really then. Where does power go? And the powers and the people that were supposed to be? Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to watch. So all the best I'll be looking out for you guys. I'm sorry, that sounded very flippant, ya know, that we will. Back to you as as a mother, you've talked about how your choices that you made how you're going to live your life, were really influenced by your children, do you find that your, your writing your music is heavily influenced by your children is think I don't particularly separate my identities out anymore? I think that I, you know, I struggled with this on my, my elbow and the water comes back because I felt like, you know, I have a song that is about that, that miscarriage experience. And I remember being like, I don't want people to dismiss this song. Because it's about you know, like, a woman's issue, or whatever. Because in my mind, it's not a woman's issue, you know, like, it's, that's just like, that's a consequence of being a person, you know, and I didn't make that baby myself. You know, I didn't do that alone. It's not just my it's not just my issue to deal with. And and, yeah, so I felt like a little bit of like a conflict, you know, in that, like, I'm gonna write about who I am and who I am includes being a woman and includes being a mother and includes like, acknowledging that I have those roles. And I'm not gonna like pretend like I don't because they're really important parts of my life. They dominate most of my time, you know? But those I feel like a lot of women have to pretend like it's not the case like when they're writing and and like maybe that's a choice. Maybe, maybe, you know, maybe, you know, either other songwriters are like, this is my way of reclaiming, you know, Have an individual identity as to right, Mr. Not right about them. Not like them. But because my, my, the way that I write and what I write about is so immediate, and often very responsive to where I am in my, you know, environment and circumstance, then they show up, they keep showing up those girls. And maybe not like overtly like, this is the song about my daughter. Because only country singers can get away with that, but but, ya know, they definitely show up. And again, I don't I don't think that I would write honestly, in a lot of ways and in the same ways had they have they? Had they not been a part of my life, even when the songs are not about them overtly. presence has informed, you know, that the song exists. Yeah, for me. Yeah, that makes sense. Makes sense? Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. Because you literally, you are a different person. Like, to the person that didn't have children? Yeah, yeah, for better or for worse. Yeah. So talking about their identity. When you became a mum? Did you have like a big profound shift that maybe you were losing a part of yourself? Or was it all like a positive? I'm gaining this part? Like, how did you sort of go through that experience? I heard, it's such a funny part of my life. It's such a funny part of life. Because I think that because of the way that my life had shifted so dramatically, and that small window of time, my husband and I almost didn't date, even, like, we just like loops are married. And so my daughter came so soon after, you know, I, so he was the mayor of, so he was my, he was my boss, I worked in a wine shop, and he was my boss. And so we got married, and obviously, I stopped working immediately. And my thought was, like, Oh, I'm gonna find a job, whatever. And then I got pregnant. And I was like, No, hire me. I believe, again. So I stayed home for those nine months, and I was pregnant. And I felt a little wayward for sure. Like, what am I doing? And I felt a lot of shame. Like, I have to be better busy myself with a lot of little projects, you know? So that it looks like I'm doing some things that nobody can look at me and say that I'm not basically, I was unaccustomed to not doing and so I decided, you know, so like, I wrote for a little column, a little wine column and a little, a little flat like website, and I, you know, made a lot of art. And I didn't nursing didn't think. But, you know, I think I was so relieved to have as big a project as a newborn. Yeah. Because, yeah, because when you have that, nobody can look at you and say, You're not doing enough. You know, you have a kid, and a little small person. And, and I adopted the most of the work. I think now looking back, probably because I could then be like, Look at look at it. And I'm going to be the best, you know, housewife, and I'm also going to have this newborn strapped to me as I do it, and what are you going to do, then? You know, you gotta tell me now I'm not doing enough and yeah, so I think it wasn't that motherhood made my identity. I you know, I hear a lot of women say this, that their identity felt challenged or taken from them by motherhood, I think that I adopted a whole persona role. So that I, so that I could basically like prove that I had value that there was worth in me via though those roles, you know, in that, and so simplistically, you know, but I do think that that is absolutely something that happened when I became a mom. Definitely, definitely. And it wasn't until, I don't know, I think having them I just, I just think it sort of reminded me that I am a creative being, who cannot not create and and that in order to do so, in order to encourage them to be creative beings, like I had to be willing to sort of lean into that part of who I was. And yeah, and imperfectly very imperfectly to the point where like, even now like now, now was when I'm like, Oh man, I'm being a bad mom right now because I am you know, I'm leaning very hard into this one direction or being very annoyed at them for not allowing me to this moment or whatever. Yeah, but yeah, that's again very long winded way of saying like, yes, motherhood changed, changed my identity. But I think I think in this case it is sort of was like I took it on as like a persona. And almost like an attempt to shape and identity before I really realized that, like, there was one already there that was worth pursuing. Yeah. Was that something knees sort of realized after the fact? Or you were of it at the time, do you think? I think I think it was, I think it was after the fact. I think in the moment, I was really desperate to prove how good I was, um, and how much I could contribute to this life that already existed, you know, with my, my, my, my husband's life, and, you know, this, like, big life that already existed that I sort of married into, and yeah, I think I think it took a long time for me to realize like, Oh, I didn't, I didn't feel willing to try. For a long time, I didn't feel willing to, like, lean back into me, like the identity of me, like who I am as a person, outside of, you know, this, this, this this life, and how that could be a contributing beneficial positive force as well. Hmm. Yeah. Yep. That's very powerful thing, isn't it? That's, like, really profound. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really interesting thing to be in the middle of, and I know you're catching me at like, such a weird moment in my, like, creative process and journey and stuff with this with this new project, because these new songs are all about. They're all about that they feel like they're holding me accountable. You know, they feel like they're demanding something of me that I never really walked all the way into. And I feel like in order to be like an honest person and honest artist, I have to do all this work, you know, to, in my own identity, and you know, shifting, challenging what I have told myself the story was my story here in this life and allowing the discomfort of, you know, having once and you know, making something uncomfortable for somebody else, maybe you're not fitting into their timeline or you know, all those things. Even you know, given the small little things, yeah, are stuff that I have to like work out now. On a day to day basis being like, this is uncomfortable. Also, it's good. To go through that to that yuckiness to get out the other side and have achieved something I suppose I've gotten through that. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. And like right now, it's like, I don't know. Well, we get well, I get through it. I mean, I hope so. I hoped it's much easier to be fine all the time. You know, it's much easier to be like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. But like, what if I'm not and what if I like? Acknowledge it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What comes from that? You know? Yes. To take up that space and go actually no. So now what are you going to do? No, I'm not going to do that actually. Yeah, good on you. Be with you the subject or the concept of mum guilt is something that I enjoy talking to my guests about, and not because I like to say, hey, tell me all about your guilt. It's like, I just find it such a fascinating topic. And I love that I've had some guests on that have had to google it because they don't even know what it is. You know, it's a it's one of these things that everyone feels differently or doesn't feel at all, which is awesome. What's your take on the whole subject? Matter Okay, out? Well, I will it is 100% real and I don't know if that's again, because of my evangelical upbringing. Guilt just comes net. Feeling guilty about it. Everything as recently driving with my sister, and she's just like, We're just driving along and she looked at me, she's like, stop sakes, sorry, why do you keep saying sorry? It was like, Oh, it was, you know, I didn't just come so naturally. I think I think I spend a lot of time, you know, on on the internet, on Instagram and places like that trying to sort of like, feel out who my people are, like, what are what are the places that like, Where can I find the people who maybe would benefit from hearing my music. And that's where I spend a lot of time. And there, you know, in multitudes of accounts, you know, Mom accounts and things like this. And a lot of them are pretty fictionalized. And not real representations of what it is. And a lot of them are these like, you can go in extremes, right? I used to joke like I had when I had when I had a kid in preschool. All the parents are like, Yes, I'll show up for that 10am event, and I will bring treats and everything will be great. And I will make them myself and I'll knit Everyone is fine. And then I went to like, like, I took the same kid, you know, her her primary school. And all the parents were like, competitively like, disassociated. Like they're like, What? Forgot I even had a kid. When's the birthday? Oh, no. Goofy extremes of like, Oh, okay. So I think that I have felt guilty. I feel more guilty now about doing my work than I ever have. But it's because I'm doing more work than I ever have. Yeah. Yeah. And coincide. And like, conveniently for me, like my, my two children, this is the first two they're both in school for longer than like two hours at a time. So they're both gone for a large period of the day, for the most part, which gives me a little bit of space, which means that like in this in the time that they are home, I feel like I can participate more with them. Not perfectly certainly. Because a lot of the time I'm still trying to like eat go and a few hours, you know, just do this thing have to just look the other way for you know, three minutes more, or whatever. Yeah, but definitely, I'd say that I feel more guilty now about you know, oh, I didn't take my kids apple picking you like, that's a false thing I should have done with my children. Oh, yeah. Like, if there were these things that I shouldn't have done? Dang it. But like, I always joke like, I'm not a I'm not like a I'm not a I'm gonna participate or you don't like I don't? I'm not the volunteer, you know, at the magic show. Yes, Sydney covers. Exactly. I'm like, go ahead. And I, like I hate I'm not like an amusement park person. I don't, I don't, I don't, I want to sit at the back of the class, I can watch everybody else. You know, that's, that's where I am. And I sometimes just forget about, like, the very, you know, all the stuff, the stuff that kids get to do. And sometimes I feel really bad about that. Because I have, you know, relatives and friends who are really good at remembering that kind of stuff. But there are other times where I'm just so grateful that I've given my kids the space to be bored. And because they're so deeply creative, yeah, they're so creative with the way that they use their time their stuff. The you know, the, the imagination and their ability to be with themselves and not have to constantly be entertained by me or anyone you know. Yeah, yeah. I think I fluctuate between just feeling like, oh my god, I did you know, I'm failing them. I'm feeling them because we didn't go apple picking or whatever. And like, wow, I'm really glad that we spent the afternoon you know, upstairs learning how to use a hot glue gun or whatever. Whatever it might be. Yeah, that's CDs in it. Like, I don't know, it's just there was a lady I interviewed yesterday, who said her mom can't understand why this generation of mothers feels like we always have to be entertaining our children. It's like, like, going here doing this doing that doing that. And I feel like it's what you're saying is is awesome because when I remember my childhood, I don't remember. Like my obviously my parents were there doing doing doing doing doing doing doing things with them at my you know, we were when we're at home it was like, You go create your games or you go do what you want to do or you play your instrument. You just do things and my sister and I a two and a half years different so often, you know, together, you know fishing around doing something or You know, and that I feel like that's not, that's not what childhood is now, there's always going to be something that they're doing or something that they're given to entertain them. And, you know, devices are, obviously come to front of mind, but, and even in, I did some training at work the other day, I'm an early childhood educator and I work in a kindergarten. And we were asked to recall the words that described our childhood. And I remember, like, Freedom literally came to mind, because we were free to do what we wanted, decide what we wanted, we could go out and you know, ride the bikes around. So literal freedom, but the freedom to say, you know, let's just make up this game or, whereas now I feel like there's so much I don't want to say control. But it's, there's got to be things presented to kids all the time. So I love what you're doing with your kids. And it sounds like awesome. Yeah. Do you know what? Yeah, like, even just hearing you say that like that? I love that. You said that freedom is what came to mind. But I'm not sure that that's the word that I would that would come to mind. But like my, you know, my mom had four kids after me. Yeah, well, if there was not, there was no active like she couldn't possibly take us to an afternoon activity. You know what I mean? Unless we could very ourselves there or like, just stay after school longer or whatever. Like, it was not happening and. And yeah, the hours spent outside and like, with friends getting into trouble or whatever, or like, just being out being being around choosing to do spending hours with a painting, whatever, like, whatever it was bossing my sister's around and making them like, dress up and you know, little costumes and stuff. I like I live for. I loved it. And that's like, that's yeah, I just think there's like a lot to be gained from that. Now, of course, like, I feel a little conflicted, right, as somebody who wants to be performing too, because like, I wouldn't go to my show. I'd be like, Nope, I'm not going out. But maybe that's all the more reasons to start doing things like in house shows and whatnot. But, um, but yeah, no, I love I love that I love I love that freedom is the word that comes to mind. And I hope no, I hope that that's sort of hope that's what they feel a little bit of. Hope that is, I don't know, I don't know if that will be what they take away but. In terms of you being a creator, and a mother, is it important to you. And I put this in air quotes to be more than just a mom, because we're never just a mum, but to be doing something for yourself outside of your mothering role. I think it's become more important for me. This is a conflict, isn't it? I struggle sometimes because I realize I do a lot of things so that people can look at me and say, Wow, she's doing a lot of things. And like, I glean a lot of like, purpose and value from that, that I really wish I didn't, you know, like, I wish that I could you know, spend a day doing good, like, taking care of my kids, my house, whatever, you know, like just like Elon mom stuff. And at the end of the day, you know, when someone's like, what do you do today? Tell them what I did today. And feel good about it. Like I remember I was on a I was on one of those zoom co writes with somebody and they said, Tell me your story. This was a few years ago now. Tell me your story. Like what like what, you know, who are you whatever. And I said, Well, I'm a mom. I'm like, I couldn't think of another thing to say as though like, that was the only thing about me were saying but also like, I was under you know, I was undercutting it as I said it like just a mob. So, yeah, so I think I feel like that's a I do feel compelled to do more than quote just momming But I don't know that that's like for a very good reason. Because I think that momming is a really big. Making sure the next generation of people are not assholes is a really big responsibility that I wish more people undertook Yeah, no guarantees, I mean, but but, uh, you know, fingers crossed, things will work out me out there in the sunshine. Okay, when I can see, it's important to me that my kids see that I'm that I do things creatively and more than just see it, like, I want them to know it, I want them to I tell them, you know, like I, I don't shy away from being like, I need to do this thing now, you know, I can't look at your castle for the third time because I'm in the middle of writing something you're gonna have to wait, you know, and and showing them that I value what I'm doing as I'm doing it and, and I used to like really relish the fact that I could shove everything into the margins of my life because I you know, as a mom, that's kind of what you do. And I see no, of course, it's still I'm up here, you know, it's like 10 o'clock my time like it was we all that's what we do. But um, but also like, there's nothing wrong, you know, if it's 2pm and I have a lyric in my mind to say like, you have to do something else right now. I'm working and working on this thing or like, you know, if you didn't interrupt me six times, I could already be done. And then I would you would have me. So if you could just go do something else for a minute. Yeah, and I think it's become increasingly more important to me to articulate those kinds of things. Sometimes even just so I hear them, you know, like, it's important for me to be working yourself. This matters, you should you know, stop interrupting yourself. The laundry will get done, you know? Yeah. The bathroom, giggling whatever. Like, I know that you really want to get this, that that's looming over you. But also like, that will that will not change. But you might lose this line of thought, you know, like, you might lose this green light of hot. Exactly, the bathroom will stay dirty. So anyway. Yeah, that's the thing isn't like, as a creative person, you things will strike you at any time. There's no predictability about it whatsoever. It's like, you've got to get it down because it'll go and it won't come back. Yeah, I've had that happen so many times where I've thought to myself, just remember these just remember this dish. Remember this nap? Now, two seconds later? Yeah. Literally. I even I was saying to someone the other day that I at work, sometimes I'll be out in the yard with the kids and I'll get I'm very seem to pick up, like get ideas through rhythm. So I'll hear someone doing something so many times at work. I'd be petting babies to sleep and just get songs just from the rhythm of my party. So I have to have to put down so I'll run into the toilet. I like quickly. Record. That's good. I can relax now. I've got that damn. Oh my god, that feeling is so good. Yeah, nevermind the fact that I haven't named it and we'll have like a dozen more before I look at them again. But still, it's just a relief. And they're all like, like, somehow get an idea. Do you find with your writing process? Do you get a tune? Or do you get lyrics? Or like, how does it come to you? Yeah, yeah. I'm always interested in this because I don't know. Oftentimes, oftentimes, it'll be like a little phrase with a lyric. So like a little musical phrase with a lyric. And then like, where does that take me and then often, it'll be a melody that I kind of can can put words into, but it'll start usually with like, a little line of melody and lyric together. And then they'll move from there. But for me, like, like you said, you were saying earlier, it's it really helps when you're writing a song that you, like, comes from you, you don't even like I'm writing. This is what's on my mind. And so this is like, there's a folk, it's not like an amorphous, like, I love you, you know, like, and then we fell in love. You know, it's like something a lot more specific, or an idea that's a little more specific, that can kind of guide then you're like, whatever the narrative and and tone of the song evolves into. Yeah, you said for rhythm is that? Does it really become a melody does it become um, sometimes it becomes the melody. Sometimes it's just what I hear. And I make a melody over the top of, it's really random, like, I've had times where I've just been walking, and I think I've been conscious of my footsteps and I've just got stuff. Yeah, and yeah, padding, padding babies to sleep. I reckon I've written about four songs, putting babies to sleep, and then rushed out of the baby's room quickly whittling it down really quickly. Because you can have your phone with you there on the floor. So it's like, right, right, right, right. Yeah. That yeah, it's just and it Yeah, it just, I just find it so fascinating how it'll literally just, boom, it'll be there. Yeah. Yeah, it's not there. Like it just, it doesn't. It doesn't slowly creep in. It's like, bang, done. Like, it's just a masking. Yeah, it is such a neat process. And it's so different for every songwriter. Yeah, I've been following this guy named Derek Webb, he, he started this, the reason I followed him is because he started this project, he's like, I'm gonna write this album out loud, like, I'm gonna livestream my writing sessions. And I was like, can't wait to watch that happen. So I've been watching him, him write this album, and like, you know, watching the live, it's just, it's such a different, he's much more like intellectual than I am, and like, much more cerebral about the way that he does things. But he's like, you know, his, like, notes of all the lyric options, and then like, all the voice notes, and you listen through with them. And there are a lot of those, like, you know, things that go into a story or a vocal narrative. And, yeah, it's just been, it's been really interesting and inspirational, because you're like, oh, man, there's so many ways to go about this. And I don't have to be, you know, pigeonholed by what I've known, you know, in one way, like, maybe there's a lot of other ways too, which is cool. I've got to say, writing songs has been one of the few things that I've just completely trusted my gut on that I haven't, I felt like, Am I doing this, right? And I'm that sort of person. I think because of this perfectionism, or hence, everyone else do it. You know, like, I find them obviously, I find that interesting. But as a kid, like, I wrote a lot of poetry and stuff, and I don't think I ever, I didn't care what anyone else thought or need anyone else did. Or not, it's one of the few things in my life where I've really been able to say that, I just realized that just then. I love that. That's amazing. That's amazing. And that's, I mean, like, that's such a good word. Because you're like, because that's the whole thing with Sunrise. Like, you know, there are what I think the latest data, I just somebody just said this, I think it's something like 100,000 songs are uploaded, like a day, to Spotify, or something very depressing like that. But, you know, like, what makes you you like, what's the weirdest thing about you? Like, what's the most true, strange, specific thing about you that you can trust? And that's what's going to, you know, that's what makes it worth it. That's what makes it worth it, to have your voice and share it to be you. Like, you're not trying to be anybody else. And when you're not trying to be anybody else's, and when you new a new the most, you know, trustworthy really, you know, as an artist. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? That authenticity and Yeah, cuz I think you can get like that. That number is a scary number that like just made me shudder. Listening, God, has anyone ever gonna hear me? But it's like, I think sometimes. As an artist, you can be caught up in what? What is successful? What, what is being played on the radio? Or what is whatever your idea of success is? What is touring that space? And like, Oh, I'll try and do that. But it never works. Because it's not you. You know, it's just you can't fake yourself. I don't know. Like that's it. Take anything, don't take anything else from these podcasts. You can't fake yourself again. Remember that? So I don't know. It's just now anyway, that I've really gone. I mean, to me, it all makes sense. It all makes sense. It's online. Because it's just so authenticity piece. It's like you we were talking about, like, Do your kids show up in your music, do you? Well, if you're writing from an authentic place, and you happen to have kids probably one way or another, even if it's not explicitly, like I have kids, you're singing on some level, you know, for about because, you know, in this space between them, you know, whatever, it's gonna be informed by that because it's your life. That's the life that you're living. Yeah, absolutely. That's it. Yeah, I actually had another mom I had on the podcast, say, say very similar thing. She's like, this is the person I am. I'm a mother with children. So this is what comes out of me, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Sorry. Not sorry. I'm not sorry. Actually. You're not sorry. No, you're not sorry. So your cars you can And. So on that, something I used to talk about a lot in the podcast and sort of waned a little bit lately, but I'm gonna bring it back up about this, the role of sort of capitalism, I guess, in creativity. And when you say, you know, there's that many new songs coming out of Spotify every day. And as an independent artist, it's like, how the hell will anyone hear me? But it's like, it's like, you don't create it, for other people to hear it. You create it, because this is your way of expressing yourself. Yeah. And you have to, yes, yes. And the value that you place on that creativity doesn't be come diminished, just because you're not earning a financial gain from that makes sense. Yeah. I, yeah. Gosh, boy, is that a tough one, because you, especially if you are coming from a place of being primarily a parent, and not a breadwinner, and not an income earner. You, I always feel like there's, like, I have to make an excuse for doing my work or spending money on my work. And, or for my work rather, and, and spending the time either time to, you know, because that's a that's a pretty precious resource as well. But I was at a kid's party once, and this mom was looking at her four kids running around. And she was talking about how she and her husband, you know, took turns or whatever, for to pursue their particular passions, and she's a librarian. So she wanted to really wanted this one job at a university in a position and as a tenured position, whatever, but she was going to school and she said, You know what, to get really what you want to do, when you want, if you're in this position, you just gotta bleed money. What she's like, Yeah, just bleed it, you know what I mean? Just bleed it for a while, because at least you'll be happy. And I was like, And on some level, I think I've carried that around with me like, this is, it's worth it. If it leads to that, because your kids are not going to be like, my mom was financially secure. Your kids are going to be like, my mom was happy. You know, my mom did what she loved. And I'm not sure why I'm talking about myself, like I'm giving a eulogy. But my, you know, like, they're saying, like, my, my mom does what she loves, my mom pursues her passions in ways that allow me to feel like I can as well. Even you know, like, whatever the cost, financially was, like, within reason, obviously, like, within reason. But for me, I find like, that was very validating, because I was like, Oh, I'm not the only one out here being like, sorry may get a rain for a lot of other people, because I just, you know, it costs a lot of money to record. And to, you know, and to get processed and to like to get things heard in any sort of ways, hard and expensive and a little bit required, you know, on a lot of levels. Um, you know, depending of course, on your circumstance, but I don't know, I guess that that I ran into her just a few weeks ago again, and I was like, you know, you told me she's like, Yeah, I got that dream job. And then I left it. But that's she's like putting out a better one, but I got a better one. Okay. Okay. At least there's that. Yeah, yeah. Just like the the ability to believe that, that art exists outside of money, you know, that. It's, it's a real Fu, isn't it? It's a real fuck you to capitalism to be like, I'm gonna continue making my art and loving it and doing it well. And sharing it, you know, best I can. However I can, regardless and outside of the system that doesn't want me in it. Because, like, some days, I feel like I can't crack this and some days. I'm like, why am I trying to crack? You know? Yeah, but that it gets tricky. Yeah, it's something I've always struggled with is that I'm spend more money on my art than what I make from it. And yeah, I sort of feel I find that really hard to justify sometimes, like, you know, I could have paid paid for the kids to do something, you know, like that money could have gone to something else. But then I think I need to do this, like I need to have my needs met in this way. And this is just how it manifests. And I'm married to a financial planner, which makes life really challenging. So it says, this many of your CDs, or you need to sell this thing or whatever. And I'm like, I'm not listening to that, because I can't be held to that, you know, I'm doing it because I love doing it. It's really, really stressful. To receive that math to be a really stressful message. For sure, it's very helpful in other ways, because I know we'll have enough money when we retire. But it can be challenging at times. And it's like, these are literally the two worlds colliding, you know? Listen, yeah, for sort of that. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know. It's like, yeah, and I also find, I also get quite jaded by, you know, the commercial radio and the whole music industry. That is literally a money making machine. And I sort of think, I think, when I was younger, I had friends around me like, Oh, we've got to get a record deal. We've got to get signed and whatever. And it's like, I actually don't want anyone else to take ownership of anything that I've written or recorded, even if that means that I'm not going to be on whatever radio station because that's not who I am. And that might sound like I'm selling it, I'm making an excuse where I haven't gotten signed, you know what I mean? But like, you just look at the whole Miss Taylor Swift got herself in with that bloke that held all of her rights, and then sold them. And now she's had to go back and record everything. You just think like, even now, she probably truly doesn't own her work. You know? I don't I just I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. And that's I mean, and I think that in the artists, so this goes back, I think it goes back to just recording with those guys in Nashville, because I, you know, I'm, I'm on the east coast of the United States. And it's kind of like a gogogo mentality, and there's a lot of urgency, there's a lot of busyness. And that's just kind of in the air. And like, it's not even something I notice, unless I'm somewhere else. Right. And in, in Nashville, I just the first time I went down, you know, it was it was January of 2021. So the rug had essentially just been pulled out from under all these, you know, musicians are sitting there with the band hired to do this gig. And that was probably really good for them and everything. But Alexa, several of them are touring musicians that just didn't have a job anymore, you know? And you can get really down and have about that. And that can really sort of destroy you and your confidence. But like, every single one of them was like, Well, yeah. And then I learned how to do this from home. And then I figured out this thing, and I thought why isn't this possible? And that's sort of been the thing every time I've gone down there just the spirit of like, why not? Yeah, like, why don't we try. And these aren't like big, huge artists, you know, they're, they're usually little indie people. And, you know, I just this last project they recorded. The drummer, who we got her name is Megan Coleman, but she was, had just been on tour with Alison Russell, who's a really big Americana person who was on tour with brandy Carlisle. Like, that was the tour, she was just on, you know, and then she came and recorded my little rinky dink project, you know what I mean? And so like, to be a working successful musician, means so many different things. And it really has a lot to do with your belief and possibility. And also imagination. And I think that's really what that you know, what that what the these experiences have really shown me is that like, doing the thing, and actually, my son, my producers life said this to me, when we had dinner when I was there, and she was like, you know, that you're doing, you're doing the thing? You're already doing it, you know, like, you don't have to wait for some abstract, like, successful, like, you know, Sunday come up over the horizon. Like, yeah, you're doing the thing. And that is it, you know, like, congratulations, because you're doing the thing. And I don't think I'd ever really thought about it that way before where it's like, Oh, I get to, you know, am I making money? Absolutely not. What I like to be sure, that's a separate issue. It's a separate issue altogether. Am I Well, Getting to believe that my creative pursuits, instincts and outcomes are are worth trusting and pursuing. I do get to do that every day. And that's, that's pretty cool. And you've got your daughter's watching, which is awesome. Yeah, yeah. I mean usually pretty annoyed with me but later they're gonna be like even heard about bound? There's no way to shame is refusing Have you got anything in the future that you want to mention that's coming up or anything else you want to mention anything at all that's on your mind? Oh, what is on my mind these days? I'm, you know, I guess I want to emphasize that like you're not doing it wrong if it's really hard. You know what I mean? Because things worth doing are hard. That's just it. And like today, and this week, I've really been struggling because you know, people don't get back to me quickly, or with the right answers that I want. At that moment. Like today, I got frustrated because I was talking to a photographer and I have this idea for a photo shoot for this next project. And he wouldn't just say, like, do this, this is a good idea. And every time I leave a conversation with God, I think, what's that? Do they hate my idea? Like, is it not worth pursuing? Should I trust it? And like, you feel this really lonely? Because you're like, I'm the only one who thinks this. Yeah. And I guess I guess I want to say like, get even if you're the only one who thinks that, it's, it's your, you know, it's worth doing. It's worth doing. If you if, you know, if you're compelled to do it, you know, you can't stop thinking about it. It's, you know, if it's if it's becomes that sort of like obsessive thought, chances are like, you're not going to be able to not do it. And, yeah, and to just I guess, try trust it trust that difficulty. Not not because it makes it easier. Not because it makes it easier. But because it had no it reminds you, I guess maybe of the worth of the worth of it. And, you know, looking back on all the work from the last project that was predominantly solo and really difficult. I'm so proud of it, you know, so proud. And I know, you know, through all this, like, you know, every day it's sort of this like, well, the person making the video get back to me, well, the person booking the venue of the it's always just this like, silent prayer, like somebody's going to be like, Yes, this is good. But the first this is good, like has to come has to come from me, this is good. And it is worth it. And I'm not going to give up until somebody sees that it's good with me. Not because that validates it, but because it needs to be out in the world somewhere. And whoever needs to hear it. should hear it. And so I'm gonna do the best I can to make sure that they do. Well. Good Anya. Love that. That is a that is brilliantly said. I think we can all relate to that in different ways. Yeah, that's that's really good. Oh, thanks. I'm gonna get a new project coming out. But I don't have a specific date for that yet. So I can't pitch it. But you know, if you want to follow me on Instagram, I'd love to have you there. It's Katie, underscore Callahan underscore music. You know, that's, it's pretty fun. Pretty fun over there a lot. It is fun. It's a lot of snakes over shoulder snakes. Oh, God, I think about the people like oh my god, who's actually seen this, like periodically, like the preschool teacher will like it. And I'm like Sorry. I'll put the links to your to all your bits and bobs in the show notes so people can click along and yeah, and I mean, as soon as as soon as I have stuff to share about the new the new stuff. I'm so excited about it. And it's you know, it's for people like you interview you know, like, when i Whenever I listen, I'm like a man that is exactly. That's exactly the kind of person I want. You know that I want to hear this music that's coming out. So yeah, it's about it's badass guys, so I can't wait. I'm excited. That's awesome. Good Anya. Aw, thank you so much for coming on. It's been such a pleasure chatting and I just keep doing what you're doing because I just love love your energy and your enthusiasm and what you share with the world. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. This has been a true joy. I loved it loved meeting you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time moms chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Sarah Renzi Sanders US mixed media visual artist S1 Ep24 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Sarah Renzi Sanders is a visual artist from Kensington, Maryland a suburb of Washington D.C USA, and a mother of 3. Through surrealism and symbolism, and working with acrylics, oils, collage and mixed media, Sarah explores her various identities from a young child to a mother as well as the plethora of roles women play in society. Her work also brings light to the taboo subject of mental health, using the mask as a repeated symbol to hide the true self. Her work demonstrates her fascination with the mysteries of the human mind, memory, and imagination. Sarah’s own meditation practice and creative vision are intrinsically linked as seen through the metaphysical and spiritual symbolism in her work. We chat about how Sarah draws on this meditation practice to create her art challenging the patriarchy in art and life, being your true authentic self, judgement and generosity. **This episode contains discussion around anxiety, depression and autism** Connect with Sarah on her website and instagram Find Sarah"s new series here Find Sarah’s Mixed Media Madonna project here Find Sarah’s Kensington Artists profile here Podcast - instagram / website Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks for joining me. My guest today is Sarah Renzi Sanders. Sarah is a visual artist from Kensington, Maryland, a suburb of Washington, DC, United States, and she's a mom of three. Through surrealism and symbolism, and working with acrylics, oils, collage and mixed media, Sarah explores her various identities from a young child to a mother, as well as the plethora of other roles women play in society. Her work also brings light to the taboo subject of mental health. Using the mask is a repeated symbol to hide the truth self. Her work demonstrates her fascination with the mysteries of the human mind, memory, and imagination. Sarah's own meditation practice, and creative vision are intrinsically linked, as seen through the metaphysical and spiritual symbolism in her work. Today, we chat about how Sarah draws on that meditation practice, challenging the patriarchy in art and in life, being your true authentic self judgment and generosity. This episode contains discussion around anxiety, depression, and autism. Thank you so much for coming on today. Sarah, it's a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. I'm right in saying Happy Thanksgiving. Yes, yes. Last night, so I'm very glad that it's a feeling a bit full silver. I am but you know what, I had leftovers for breakfast and, and it was great. D tell me is it? I'm not totally familiar with thanksgiving. But is it almost bigger than Christmas? For you guys over there. It's like it's a really significant holiday or it's not bigger than Christmas. But it's kind of the kickoff to the Christmas season two. So one Thanksgiving is over. Then we're bombarded with, you know, the Christmas commercials and the Christmas songs and the radio and like it's time to buy stuff. It's like right off you guys. It's exciting. So So you're in a place called Kensington in Yes, Dairyland. Can you tell me a bit about I did a bit of googling. I was actually really interested in your weather. I have this thing what people's weather's like. So you're in? You're in winter over there now? Yes, yes. So cold, windy. Every once in a while we'll have a nice day. That get air will get up to like 60 Because it's fall. But for the most part, it's pretty cold and windy. Like 30 degrees ish is the average at this point. Yeah, I'm just gonna do a quick conversion and see what that is in Celsius. Yeah. Oh, that's alright. Hang on. I'm gonna look it up. We're about 10 miles outside Washington DC. Maybe a little less than that. Yes. Yeah. So is that like, minus one? So? I mean, 32. Freezing? Yeah. So it's not terrible. It's actually been a pretty mild fall so far. But yeah, it hurts your face. Well, where I live, we do not get anywhere near that. Like, I'm complaining when it's like 13 degrees, which what would that be for you? Hang on, let me put that in proper. What you can 13 Celsius is like 55. Right. So really, so that's cool. That's our code. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's so nice. You probably be appreciating that right now. That's a beautiful day here. So Is it snowing there? Do you get saved? No, it's not snowing. So, um, I mean, today I think they said it was gonna be a high of 45 which is not too bad. I can still walk the dogs and be okay. Yeah, right. Yeah, so that hang on. I've got to look that up. That's seven. Okay, so that's, that's okay. So seven. Yeah, yeah. So your style of art is to realism and symbolism. Am I right in saying that? Can you explain for people like me who aren't into like, understand, what does that mean? So surrealism is you are creating work that looks realistic, but it's often an unrealistic setting. So sometimes the juxtaposition of things that don't really make sense together. Surrealism is often described as dreamlike. It looks like maybe it's came from my imagination, which it did. But in most instances of my work, I'm using my own experiences. And I'm kind of putting it together together in a way that makes sense to tell a story. So it's not an exact memory. It's not like a snapshot of a moment in time. It's more of, you know, how I was feeling in the moment and exploring how I can express those feelings visually, and put symbols in there that have sort of a deeper meaning. And my work, really, it is autobiographical, but I, I want people to be able to look at it and relate to these emotions. Yeah, lately. Yeah. So that's something that started out as something that that triggered from your life, but the themes are sort of common that anybody could relate to that from their own experience in life, I suppose. Yes. Yes. So I address a lot of anxiety, depression, mental health issues. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That's very common theme, isn't it? For people? Yeah. Yeah. That's very hot right now. Yeah, for sure. So the symbolism I'm interested in because one of my guests I had earlier on was an art historian. And she was talking about how she looks here. Her specialty was the long 18th century. And she was talking about how she looks at the art and, you know, tries to decipher I suppose, what was going on, and all that sort of thing. So I guess that's the symbolism sort of ties in people could look at that. And I guess it's subjective to like, people could take it. However, they needed to, I guess, couldn't they? It's not necessarily everybody. Yeah. And that's why I like talking about my art. But a lot of times, I like people to tell me about what they see in my art and how it makes them feel and how it relates to their story. Because I think that's the most interesting part. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. So what sort of mediums do you use in your art, so I'm mostly an acrylic painter right now. I have used oils in the past but I am working out of a very small office space in my home. So acrylic is just the easier medium to use. And I try to I try to sometimes put things materials in there that wouldn't be expected. For example, I will stitch with embroidery floss directly on the canvas. So you may not see it as well in pictures but if you were to see the work in person, you can see that you know, this eye is stitched on with thread or these flowers are are sewn onto the canvas. The piece behind me as a piece has some lace on it. I also do use textural elements such as cracks. I use this paste called crackle paste and it kind of you put it on and as it dries, it creates these kinds of cracks and it reminds me of, you know, dried Earth maybe like a desert. So yeah, yeah, but And now we'll use a little bit of wash for details which Um, I recently discovered is very, very fun to work with. So yeah, what is that code? Wash? It's, um, so it's I recently discovered it, it's an acrylic medium, but it's, it works almost like an oil or a watercolor, it's very easy to blend. They're little tiny tubes. So it is quite expensive. You're not gonna like paint a whole painting. But a lot of people use it for works on paper and for realistic things. So I'll use it often on the face, or on the small details of a painting. Yeah, and it's just kind of a slightly different. It doesn't dry as fast as acrylic. So you are able to blend it. So it's kind of like almost like, like how oil you can it doesn't dry very fast. So you can keep blending it to make it look more realistic. Yeah, yeah. So that things like delays, I guess is sort of, sort of reflective of like emotions. And I don't know, it's like you're creating all these different elements. Yes. Make sense? No, yeah, totally. And I just, I do I mean, each kid has has a lot of layers, because I feel like each, like each person, especially when I'm addressing women and mothers, it's like, we all have these, like, layers that we keep putting on ourselves to cover our real selves and to hide who we really are. Maybe not to hide it, but you know, it just we get lost in there. You know, you're somewhere underneath all those layers. Yeah, yeah. That's quite, quite good way of putting it. Is that that identity? Is that Yeah, it's a massive thing, isn't it? This the concept that you're, you're a woman. And then all of a sudden you have a child and your entire life has changed the way you think about yourself changes the way society views you is changes. And it's also almost you can sort of get lost in that, I think, is that is that? Absolutely. Yes. And I actually had my first child when I was 20. And I was still in college, university. And so my daughter right now is 15. In high school, and so I felt like really, I didn't even know who I was. I mean, we all struggle with Who am I but but you know, at 20 You have no idea. Yeah. So I really didn't and, and so that did become so much of who I was. And my entire life. So I never really lived as an independent adult. Without being a mother. So I was a mother like, bam, and then yeah, I'm a grew up. Yes, that's right. No, I mean, I wouldn't change it for a thing. I mean, that was the you know, biggest growing experience of my entire life. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah. How did you first getting to your, your painting and your artwork? Um, so I actually I always was the artist at school, I always was doing little caricatures and drawings of teachers and, and people in my class and and I kind of hated it. Actually, I didn't like being the artist I wanted to be, you know, I wanted to be the athlete, or I wanted to be the singer. I didn't want to be the artist. I thought that was boring. So I kind of tried to like, downplay it and push it back. But when I got to high school, I had some really great art teachers. And I you know, all my lectures were art classes, gone to college actually got rejected for being an art major, because my portfolio is so disorder is not you know, me college was not, I wasn't if I completely understand why I was rejected. It was like, completely thrown together. I was probably like, late on it too. But I decided to become an art minor because I didn't need to be accepted into any program to do that. I just You declared art I was a history major and in our minor, yes. So I did work for those courses. And, you know, I loved it, but I wasn't going to, you know, become a full time artists because that just wasn't a realistic option ever. And then I got offered a job as an art teacher, by an old teacher of mine who I just happened to run into, and she's like, Oh, you're an artist, you want to teach art. And I was, yeah. That was my first job. I had a daughter's at that point. She was one. So I, you know, I had to take the job. I taught art, which was great. And I would do a little bit of drawing, you know, for lesson planning and my free time, but I really didn't have time to devote to my art as much. But you know, in the beginning, I was really painting just things that I thought people would like, everyone's well, some come to me with the condition and, oh, can you paint my house, like, a painting of my house? Or can you pay a portrait of my dog or things like that. So I wasn't really painting for myself, I was, I was just, you know, make a little extra money here and there. It really wasn't until the birth of my third my son Wallace that I started painting during his naptime. Because in the States, we don't have any type of maternity leave. So I, it was either I had my third child, it was either like go back to work, and pay an astronomical amount of childcare, or just stay at home with my kid. And, you know, so I stayed at home, and then, you know, he had a study naptime. And that was my, my time to paint. And that's when I really started to, you know, paint for myself and just paint for the pleasure of painting. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Was there a trigger at that point to, to encourage you to go back to painting or was just something, you sort of just thought, Oh, I just want to do this. Yeah, it was, it was, well, actually, there was an event we our basement flooded. And so we had a spare bedroom in the basement. And I had been kind of painting out of it. But you know, like I said, before, not really, painting work for myself, it was more of, you know, these little side jobs. And when the basement flooded, we had to completely refinished the basement, change the flooring, you know, like, pull everything up. And I told my husband, I was like, you know, I really think instead of a spare bedroom down there, let's just put some cheap tile down. And I'll make it my art studio. And so that was really what really pushed me to start creating and then I had this big space to create and, and experiment and just make a mess. And that was like, such an exciting time. For me. Oh, that sounds awesome. I'm really taken by the colors that you use in your AU. I mean, I get the vibes that you're a spiritual person. He's from like chakras or like, is it? Like head? Is there a connection there? Or is it just totally intuitive or so, um, it's interesting, I grew up Catholic and, like going to Catholic school for 13 years of my life and very strict upbringing. But as I you know, especially as became a mother and became more comfortable in myself and who I was, I have explored, you know, spirituality in a wider sense. I'm not restricted to any sort of traditional faith. And I do have my Reiki level one training so I do and really use the chakra colors. And I do you know, only I practice taro which you know, as a child was told that I was summoning the devil sort of thing. You know, as a as an adult woman. It's like I know what works for me spiritually. And I know how to explore my own intuition. And I'm not really like I'm not afraid of being judged anymore for those sorts of things. Yeah, but I do, I try to use the softer, more feminine girlish pinks. And because it reminds me of my childhood, and a lot of my work is trying to go back and find that inner child and find what she enjoyed and what brought her joy and made her happy and gave her life. Yeah, so so much of my work is going back in time. And it is sometimes dark or subject matter. So I use the the kind of bright colors to almost reframe it and make it a little more digestible. Because, you know, if the subjects I was painting, were painted in, you know, dark, gloomy colors, that's just for me, that's not life, life is a balance of light and dark. Yeah, so, you know, the bad things happen. But something, something is coming out of that some, some kind of treasure is coming out of a bad event, it's always going to even out. So I do try to make my you know, even if my subject matter is death, or, you know, fear or abandonment, or trauma, I do try to keep these kinds of inviting colors into the piece because I do want people to bring it in and kind of reframe their mindset about certain things. Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, it's almost like you're saying, okay, so this is, this is gonna be tough. This is hard. But you know, what, you can look at it through different eyes, you don't have to see it as a, you know, a really big scary, massive negative thing. Right? Right. It's almost like it's almost like a form of therapy, you know? Yes. Yeah, absolutely is in creating, the series that I'm most known for is the unmasking the self. And it wasn't, it had nothing to do with COVID I started this. I did this series in 2019. But I do have the masks, because I feel like as young girls, from an early age, we're very much conditioned to wear masks to hide our emotions. And so my whole life, I've struggled with depression and anxiety and just, you know, put on the mask, smile, perform, be a good girl, you know, do all the things for everybody. And, you know, and so that's a lot of pressure. And I think that especially little girls are under enormous pressure, whereas boys are kind of given a pass and boys will be boys and, and but girls are there's a much higher standard that they're held to. There's an account that growing up and I feel it, I felt it for my daughter. And and I have to I have two boys that, you know. I mean, things are changing, obviously. But the series was really born out of that hole. Who am I? What is my identity? And did I ever really even have one even as a child, you know, like, it's something you really you are hidden under layers of masks and different personas and different identities that people depend on you. And as a mother, it just becomes heavy and you're aware. Yeah. Oh, that's so true. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. I love that. Yeah, I had a look on your website at the, at those pictures of your work. And it's just it's so profound, like when you start thinking about that stuff. Like it's how we start off the day starting with anything. Yeah, man, like, so you're right, having that. That attractive, sort of outside layer. It allows you to venture in without fear. I think you can sort of start to creep into it. And yeah, yes, it's very inviting. So you have three children. So your oldest 15. So I have a son who is nine. Yep. And then I have a son who is five. And my five year old is on the autism spectrum. So that was another big moment in our lives too. kind of reevaluate what it meant to raise a child. And because we had a two before who were semi nurse. But my middle one is, you know, we're still we're still getting evaluated. But the youngest CEO, he wasn't speaking. And he just, you know, would, he was quirkier, and you know, would have the meltdowns and so but when the diagnosis came back, it was very shocking to me, I was not expecting it. But, I mean, he is the most amazing human being in the world. And he is, he did a program for two years for children on the spectrum, intense therapy. And now he is in a neurotypical classroom with a teacher's aide, and he's doing fantastic. But yeah, that was a, you know, that was another dark period that I've illustrated in my work. And just the whole stigma around autism, and you know, something as something that needs to be cured. It's not something that needs to be cured. It's just a completely different, it's a different way that your brain works. And all of our brains work differently. And so I'm kind of, I do I am very passionate about, you know, autism advocacy, and just reframing it like, this isn't some tragedy, this is actually an amazing gift for my son. I mean, he's just the most amazing little human being sees the world in such a way that you I mean, that brings joy to him and brings joy to the people around him. And we all love Wallace. And he is so incredible. It's this, like, amazing little light being rainbow soul who just has these amazing ways of thinking and speaking and seeing the world and yeah, so it's really been such a great gift to us as a family. Yeah, absolutely. can sort of allows you to, to change your perspective on things or look at things in a different way. And, yeah, yeah. That's all always a you know, one of my fears. Because it's like it, like You're conditioned to think that it is, you know, so terrible. And in for some people, it is a big struggle. And I'm very lucky that we had him in early intervention therapy, and he has just grown so much. Yeah. And yeah, it's amazing. And his siblings are amazing. With him. Yeah. So it's really great. Yeah, that's awesome. Any of you children artistic as well? Do? You know, while this would be the most artistic it's, and my son Leo, my middle. He loves football. Loves in it. American football. Yep. So he loves to draw football fields from every NFL team. But that's kind of the center of it. He's not going to draw any other picture. He's not going to draw a family portrait. It's literally just binders full of different football fields. And then he'll have little numbers and scores are involved. Yeah, but then Wallace Wallace really does like to come into the studio with me and he likes the sensory aspect of he likes touching the knee, you know, the wetness the feelings. And then my daughter who's 15 is a brilliant musician. Yeah. So she's not really interested in you know, visual arts but she's pretty I mean, she's pretty amazing guitar piano she can pick anything up and yeah, good. That's awesome. So you recently created an Instagram page for artists in the Kensington area. So you're very passionate about sharing community? Yeah, tell us tell us how you came up decide to do that. You know, I I really just believe that we, we grow and we share and and it's good for all of us to kind of like rise by lifting each other up and I I feel like having a daughter in high school, you kind of are forced to go back into that dark period where girls are cutting each other down constantly. And I do live in this amazing community of Kensington, it's a very, it's a small town, outside of DC. And, you know, we can walk to all these small businesses, little boutiques, little antique stores, thrift stores, we've got a couple of food places, it's like, my kids can literally walk, if they want to, you know, pick up a sandwich for lunch or get a soda. And that's something that in the DC area isn't that common, you know, it's a lot of commuting, a lot of driving. And in our area, we have this nice little perfect place where we can walk everywhere, and the neighbors are so friendly, and everyone knows each other. And I know so many artists just in my community. And I realized that we were all working very independently, you know, everyone's we all give each other a shout out or whatever. But I really just wanted to, like bring us all together and be like, Guys, this is really special, you know, that we have so many artists in our little community. And I want to eventually create, curate some shows, do some public, you know, shows or maybe even open a gallery, two years down the road, but just kind of tapping into this creative economy that's in our community that's so valuable, but it's just not seen very much. And a lot of these women are mothers working out of their homes. So we don't have much studio space in the community. And I just kind of wanted to bring awareness to that. Because people you know, around the holidays, especially everybody's looking for this special gift, and everyone wants to buy from artists in our community. So I thought by putting this together and kind of having it be a landing page for everyone, and just promote everyone, all of them and, and just bring us together and have this kind of be like a united force in the community. So I love that. And I think also too, it shows, there's no, there's no ego of like, you're not competing with anyone, you know, it's like you're welcoming everybody. It's not saying, Oh, yours is better Rios there. It's like, it's just a supportive group, you know? Exactly. And I feel like that's what I really needed. Because I was finding that in, in the city in Washington, DC, I was finding communities of women that I would, you know, be a part of, and I would support and they would support me, but right in my backyard, you know, I can walk to, you know, five artists houses right now, you know, and I'm like, let's do it here. Let's do it here. I don't have to drive into the city to get my community of artists. I can build one right here. Yeah, absolutely. And it's so special. It's something that you know, you can you can help grow and foster that. And yes, yeah, I love that. Turning back to what we're talking about earlier about, you said something. Well, the way I'm remembering it might not be the exact words but it was to do with not worrying what people thought. And I want to just read out a quote that you wrote on your Instagram page. You said, after years of hating myself, I am proud of myself, I painted this huge effing painting behind me and I love it. I don't care if you like it, or anyone else likes it. I love it. My work is powerful and meaningful. And that's a really profound statement. That's like, it is so like, you just, it's just your truth. Yeah, it took me a long time to get there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But you know what I feel like once once the layers come off, and the ego comes off, and yeah, that sounds a little ego. You know, no, I'm with you. Yeah. But I you know, once you start worrying about people judging you and what others think of you when you more worry about like, No, I'm going to be true to myself and my authentic self and express that to people, you give other people permission to do this. Same. And if we are all, you know, trying to raise the vibration of humanity and, and work towards becoming our authentic selves and discovering our truth and our gifts and our talents, then everybody wins. So, you know, all the people walking around trying to people pleasing, be everything for everybody. And this kind of whole narrative of motherhood is the murderer, and sacrificing. And the first thing that sacrifice is like, your sense of self, right? It's just like you are not, you're just a vessel, and you're just a feeding machine and a maid and a cook. And, and all these things rolled into one that, like, you're so much more than that, like, they're everybody has their unique talents and gifts. And, you know, I did hide mine for so long, like, as a younger child, and even as an adult, not really finding out like what, oh, make a few bucks here, but what's the value of it, but I think that through Instagram, as annoyed as I get with him, it is a great, powerful tool to connect people and to, I mean, to inspire people, I'm so inspired by so many artists. And when I created an interview, I had no idea there were so many inspirational artists, so many artists that I could fall in love with their work, and just so moved by their work. And it just, it's amazing. And if we all just kind of get to a point where we can say, this is me. And this is my work. And if you don't like it, whatever. No, I didn't make it for you. I made it for me. Yeah, yeah. So I absolutely love that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that and put it in my quotes, because that honestly, I feel like I had a similar sort of Revelation. At some point. I'm not sure exactly when, but in. In my childhood, I did a lot of singing competitions, it was sort of something that we had to do. And there was this massive emphasis placed on getting a prize getting a place winning. So there was this. Yeah, this huge connection between for me between singing and being good or being better than someone or someone telling you, you were good. You know, this adjudicator this one person saying, I liked you better than that person, you know, this validation came from other people. And as I've gotten older, it's like, it's the same thing. What literally what you just said, I don't care if you don't like it, because I'm not doing it for you. I'm doing it for me. And I think, because like, any form of art is so subjective. You know, there's plenty of art that I might not necessarily like or love, but I can appreciate that the person that's done it is done an amazing job in creating that, and they've poured a piece of themselves into this, you know, whether it's music or dancing, or, you know, visual art, you know, so I think, yeah, I've come a long way, in, in many years of just accepting and, and I still put myself up for different competitions, but in different ways, like online or writing competitions. And if I don't win, it's like, that's fine. Because it wasn't my time, you know, I can see that everyone's on their own journey. And even just as recently as last last Thursday night, I was in Adelaide for a competition and, and I didn't win it, and I had no pangs of wish it was me, I mean, would have been nice to win. But I can see that that person, that one that was there on their journey, it's this is their time, you know, and it's other incredibly freeing and empowering to be able to take away that you just feel you feel unencumbered, you just feel light and, you know, yes. Once we remove the need to be validated by others, that is such a like, that is such a turning point. And obviously, of course, I still do get caught up in that a lot. It's not I'm on a journey and evolving and not yet. But I'm definitely like at the beginning when I first created my Instagram, it was like, I really was putting work online because I wanted people to like it. Obviously I wanted people to follow me I wanted people to buy my art and and that's the kind of work I was putting out and then a curator actually asked me who is Sarah Renzi Sanders, the artist. And I was like, I don't know. I it was a really hard question. It really caused me to like, like Who do I want to be? I can be any what I want. But I definitely don't want to be this person just creating, like boring abstracts that people like, so that they will sell. I want to be more than that, you know, so I want, I want my work to touch people, I want my work to inspire people, I want my work to move people, I don't just want to create something pretty to match someone's couch, you know? Yes. And I feel like I know a lot of artists who still aren't doing that and have been doing it for years. And that's their business model, and it works for them. But for me, I think I want to create more of a legacy than, you know, a financial IQ. I mean, obviously, I like I like money. There's nothing wrong with money, but I know what you mean. Yeah, it's not my first it's not my number one, you know, it's not my number one priority. So, yeah, I understand the journey, just the journey, every rejection is a stepping stone to getting where you want to be. So, you know, everybody's been rejected numerous, there's no one successful that hasn't been rejected 1000 times. So yeah, it's interesting, use that analogy. I interviewed a lady in Australia, just a couple of days ago. And she used the same sort of that imagery of she had to sort of she was saying that she was meeting getting to these like roadblocks then she'd have to change direction and, and someone said to her, why don't you look at that, instead of a block, you change direction, and you're going across like a lily pad and you have to go across you had to go to this one. It wasn't a straight line. And she said once she changed that in her mind, that way of looking at it just totally changed. And that's the same thing like the stepping stones. It's not you know, rarely is anything in life in a straight line. You know, we take that turns and and end up with Yeah, totally, totally. Growth is not linear. It's like a big ball of wool or something. It's just like. Topic that that I talk about a lot on my podcast is mommy guilt. And I believe it's something that probably is a resonates across all boundaries, like nationalities, countries, that kind of thing. Is that something is mum guilt, sort of a term that you've heard much of or you've got some opinions on? You know, I have heard it. And I do know women, estate's mostly women that are working full time, that have that mom guilt, I am lucky enough to, you know, be home and working while my kids are in school, and then I pick them up, and then I'm home with them for six more hours. And chauffeuring them to various activities. So um, I don't really have it, because I also feel like, it's, it's something that women need to sort of let go of, and allow themselves to look at it in a way that if I'm doing something for myself, I'm bettering myself so that I can be better for my children. So if I have an art show, and you know, I gotta, you know, my husband has to put the kids to bed and they don't get me singing them to sleep or whatever it's like, my kid is, is growing from that experience. They're not, it's not losing me for one night, they're not going to be traumatized by that. I mean, they're learning to be adaptable. And they're learning that yes, your mother has her own life and, and when you grow up and have kids, you're gonna have your own life too. And I think it sets an example for my daughter that you don't have to give up your entire life and you don't have to martyr yourself constantly. That you actually deserve to have a life on your own and it's gonna make you a better mom. So yeah, that's kind of how I feel about it. I could not have put that better myself. That is brilliant. Absolutely love that. Like, the more I talk to moms, the more that I think that society is the one driving this Mum, do you like the judgment? The judgment that you get from, you know, other mums and social media this perception of what a mum has to be done Um, yeah, and people are going hang on a minute, I don't buy into that, like, like you said, what I'm doing, I'm not neglecting my children, I'm, you know, I'm doing something for myself, that's going to make me, you know, feel better about my mothering role when I come back to them, you know, in a few I'm going to feel fulfilled, so that I can give myself more fully to my children. Exactly, exactly. And you're right about the social media pressure. And there's this whole culture, which I'm sure you know, about the mom influencers, and you know, and they're perfect little children, and they're perfect matching outfits, and, you know, and it's, to me, just so I feel like these women are, are sacrificing so much of themselves for this identity of perfection in motherhood. And I just don't understand how you could be authentically happy when your life is, you know, taking pictures of your children, making sure they look perfect. And you know, I'm not gonna send out Christmas cards this year. Sorry, I just know, I don't have any pictures of my kids like, altogether smiling. So you know, and I think that's okay. And I give myself permission to say, Yeah, you know, I do Christmas cards every other year. Yeah, yeah. And I just don't, I don't have the time to battle with my children until like, bribe them with candy and, and get maybe a mediocre picture of them sitting on the porch. And them all hate me for the rest of the day, because they had to sit in the cold and get a picture. You know, and like, I'm not the mom taking my kids to the pumpkin patch. And, you know, putting them on top of Tompkins. And you know what, I'm just not that person. Yes. And a lot of people, it's just like, they automatically think, well, if I don't do this, I'm not if I don't take my kid to the pumpkin, but it's just in the states. The Pumpkin Patch is a big fall activity. Yeah. Which I don't really buy into, because I'm like, I don't understand it. But it's a good photo op, I think for the moms. Yeah. And yeah, no, I we just don't do that. Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of a lot of it's like, people were coming back to that judgment thing. Like, people have to show that they're doing something or people who literally, if it didn't, if it's not on social media, it didn't happen. You know, everything's got to be on social media and, and it's almost like, Who are you trying to justify? Are you trying to make yourself feel better? Like, what are you why are you doing this? Like, yeah, justify your role as a mother that I Oh, I spend lots of time with my kids. I'm trying to make myself feel better about it. Or, you know, is it for other people to say, Oh, wow, they're doing lots of stuff, you know, like, my exhausting, you know, to me, like you're talking about these masks, like, it's a facade that they're putting up, they're creating this pretend life. Right? And that's, I mean, with my daughter, you know, now she's on social media, of course. And it's, it's just, I want to show her that no, this isn't like, this isn't real. These girls that you see with their filters on and perfectly dressed and posing places like, that's, that took that to take that picture, took a lot of work. And it's not like this perfectly, like little snapshot of my life, this is very much set up. This is a this is very curated. This, you know, this person in real life, they don't look like that. And I do like a lot of people that do it, it, it's almost like, I think with the motherhood thing, there's that loss of identity. And they maybe feel like by creating this diary of images that are perfect. It is like more concretely like, Oh, this is my identity. This is who I am, this is who I want to be. And this is where I want to show the world. But it doesn't come from a deep place. And that's where it becomes problematic. Yeah, that's it's not authentic. It's not. They're not living the truth, I suppose. Right. Right. Yeah, I think authentically, like you become your authentic self, and you express that and then the right people are attracted to you. I tell my daughter all the time, because you know, at 15 You're going through so many friend troubles and morphing of groups and, you know, drama, teenage drama, and I'm like, if you just be yourself, be true to yourself and the right people come to you and I didn't learn that until I was probably like, 33, you know, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a long journey to get there for sure. But when it happens, it happens. And yeah, I mean, I've so I went through a period of my life where I probably had no close friends for about 10 years. And then most recently, it's just like, I have all these people I really enjoy talking to. And we really connect. And it's, it's because I've done the internal work, it's because I'm expressing myself and who I am. And, you know, the people that are at that point in their life at that vibration are attracted to authentic people. So yeah, yeah. I've recently talking to other artists, mothers, it's hard to apply to things sometimes and not feel like there is an aspect of, you know, well, we mainly don't want a mother to be the artists resident, or we maybe don't want a mother to be the face of it just because she's always busy. Or she always has other things going on. Or her life so chaotic already, you know, like, there are these, like, certain excuses, I feel like that people make for not working with artists, mothers. And it wasn't until I talked to my friend the other day that I really realized that and she said something like, about posting her kids on her social media, like, maybe I shouldn't be doing this, like, doesn't man ever have to think about, you know, posting a picture of his child affecting his career? No, he doesn't. In fact, it probably it does boost his, you know, his like ability to get jobs because people are like, Oh, he's a dad, he has a family to provide for but for women, it's a totally different. It's like, oh, well, you know, she has all this work to do at home. And she has all these responsibilities. But I'm like, I mean, me anymore. We are the hardest working people on the planet. Saying I have the time to do this. I have the time to do it. I want to do it. Yeah, absolutely. Now when you talked about before the taro Have you ever done or thought about having, like creating a deck with your honor? Yes. That is probably what's coming next for me. Yeah, so the whole thing was, I had this really creepy story happen. And it's, it was a few years ago, and I was visiting my grandmother's grave, and my grandmother is very, very close to my house. So I do visit her quite often. And I went to her grave, and there was a little like walking path above above her grade. And on the walking path, there was this velvet blue bag, like a little pouch. And I was like, what is that and I kind of opened it and peeked inside and it was a deck of tarot cards. And I was, you know, I love that kind of stuff. But, um, but I was also a little bit like, am I supposed to take this or do I? So I texted my whole family like what do I do? They're like, don't take it, don't take it like that is not when you don't want that, you know? And so I was like okay, but I think it means something. So I I did take a picture of the first card on top and then I looked up the deck and I actually found it online and I ordered it and it is influenced so much of my work and it has been so spot on. But yeah, I think it's kind of like a psychological tool where Anybody can do it. And anybody can interpret what it means for them at that point in their lives. So it's not really this whole, you know, like I was taught in grade school, you know, summoning the devil or like, this tool of Satan, it's, it's, it's literally a card of beautiful pictures and you shuffle it and you choose some and then you decide how that relates to your life and if that's gonna give you guidance, or tell you what next step to take, or maybe just how to have how to change your mindset about something. So, so I do think that that is coming for me and I have sketched out a few things, but, you know, that's like a long term project. But, ya know, I definitely think my grandmother said that to me and was like, Hey, you should do this. Yeah, cuz you know what, when I started looking through your work, I was just instantly had this like, Oh, these need to be on tarot cards, because this is you know, that. Yeah. Like, there's I mean, there's definitely a big influence on my work. Yeah. Sorry, go. Now go. Oh, no, I was gonna say even before I was creating this body of work, I was creating like a more abstract, like, I don't know, if you're familiar with like, paint boring. It's very trendy right now. It's old, like, yeah, liquid paint boring. So I was doing a series of those. And I was naming them as for cards, you know, like two of cups are to me up because of the cards from my grandmother. And it was like, Oh, well, I did this one the day I found it. And that was the that was the card that was on top. So yeah, so I was even before I was creating the stuff that actually looks like Taro. Yeah, definitely going to do that. That is Yeah, no, I'm bored. And I will get some because that is beautiful connection as much. A lot of my work kind of addresses that tension between you growing up in a super Catholic environment and Hoekman and what? You know, those feelings of like, I'm doing something bad. Yeah, no, yeah. Like, we need thinking for myself and exploring my own spirituality is bad. I need to just do what the grownups you know, and my sister and I would be like, you know, locked in our we would have we had a little walk in closet that we shared no room and we would read each other's cards, and we had our crystal ball and, and I definitely grown up to be that person. Like, I have a crystal ball. And we make cards every day. And I meditate every day. Yeah, yeah. But it was something that you had to hide away because it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yes. Totally. I wanted to ask you about your other project that you do you mix media Madonna, is that? Is there sort of a Yeah, to do with that traditional. You know, practice religion. It's so interesting, because i People often ask me, oh, are you like very Catholic and I was raised Catholic, and I am a part of I do believe that's part of my culture, and my cultural upbringing. You know, my grandparents came from Italy. And, you know, I grew up with, you know, the Madonna in these pictures in their houses in their homes and bring the rosary a lot. But I moved my mixed media data, I do try to kind of bring my own twist on Mary and make it more about worshiping the idea of the mother. You know, this is like, the mother is so often forgotten, and I really want to highlight the mother and I used to teach a big lesson on the the evolution of the way Mary was painted in art history. And she went from being you know, this kind of stoic, you know, very embellished icon. Due to being, you know, kind of like Raphael portraying her like a woman of the day, like during the Renaissance, like she was portrayed, she wasn't portrayed like, Mary traditionally in, you know, in her time she was portrayed, like, this is a mother or a normal woman that I'm painting, and I'm painting her in the clothes of the day with a very thin Halo, and she's becoming human. And relatable. Yeah. And so, I do, I just am fascinated by all the different cultures in all the different ways of, like, visualizing marry, and kind of making it my own and, and making it you know, more, more than the religion, I think it's like, the the Motherhood is the most simple and the spirituality of just connecting to the mother of all, you know, yeah, and I use, you know, prayer books and people send me like, literally antique postcards and things like that. And I'll find books in all bookstores. And it really is just like magic to kind of find all these pieces and put them together in a more beautiful way, because I feel like she was always always just seen as like, oh, it's Jesus's mom. It's Jesus's mom. And even in Catholicism, you know, we do elevate Mary a lot more than other religions, but I've wanted to be something more than that. And just something that every woman can kind of look at and be like, oh, yeah, like, I like I like this. You've had people that are like, I, you know, I'm Jewish. I'm not religious at all. But I really like this piece speaks to me. And that's kind of what I want it to be more of, like a, like, this isn't just for Catholic people. This is for everybody. Yeah. And that's, I mean, it's a hard balance. Because, you know, some people are like, whoa, like, I'm not religious. I'm, you know, but I think it's a little more than that. Yeah, absolutely. It's like that universal sort of message of Allah. It is. That's what it is. That's actually what it is. It's yeah. And that's how it came out. I mean, yeah, it was, like, totally born of love. And just, in me being a mother and just, this is another mother that I'm going to celebrate. And and you know, it is mostly mothers that buy a lot of people buy them for gifts for their mothers or for you know, yeah, but and they're all different. And I tried to make each one very, I mean, at this point, I've probably made around 50 of them, I would think that you know, are just out there in different places. But I just keep making them and even if I have the same image like I have a lot of Raphael because Raphael did a lot of Madonna's but if I have the same image I still want to make it like different different colors different flowers, different elements. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that. Thank you. Yeah, I'm just imagining them would look nice up here and we're making a whole dashes them right now. I was trying to get it done for you know, Black Friday which is this American holiday that everyone shops on but not finished yet. You could make make your own shopping I just want to have some for the holidays for people to buy, you know because because I don't sell my large pieces. So you know, the way I make a little bit of money is Prince would Madonna's release Have you got anything on the go at the moment any projects or series that you're working on? That you want to share? Tell us about her. Um, so I have started working on these large abstract pieces and they they're kind of could be described as more graphic abstract, sharper lines. And like, you know, boom, bright colors. I do a lot of third eye stuff, which I've done my entire career but it's way mo here. This one is in progress. So but you know, it's more of like Like, inspired by nature, but yeah, like more of a very symmetrical Yeah, structured vision. And I do get these when I meditate every day. And I do, sometimes, especially around the full moon, get these kind of like, very clear images in my head, that when I come out of meditation, I'll sketch them really quick. And then I just there they come, they come pretty quick, and it's easy to pick the colors. And I use kind of my standard color palette that I use for my other series just, I just decided I'm just going to always take with my favorite colors, and it makes it a lot easier because then everything looks kind of cohesive, even though you know, this, the style is so different. But you know, I've been I, I've submitted a few to some open calls, and I been rejected for those. So, you know, I mean, I've been rejected for every everything I've ever painted at some point, but so, you know, we're still working through that kind of my artists statement for those pieces and not try. You know, I tried to sound authentic, but at the same time, sometimes people are like, Sarah, like, bring it down a little bit. Like, with all the woowoo like, yeah, manifestation stuff, and I'm like, okay, to put that was actually meant to say that, like, you know, why should you have to tone yourself down? Like, maybe they're not the right people to talk to you absolutely true. Absolutely true. Yeah. I just think that my own art practice has made me a better mother, even if that means less time with my children, I think that we all need to figure out that balance and, and what we need to keep us sane, because it's very easy to just spiral into this kind of loss of self and just becoming shells of people as mothers. And I feel like having something of your own as a mom, and not just a career, but something of your own. More than a hobby, a passion, you know, is so important. And I just think every, every mother needs that outlet for themselves. And to remember that, like, I am a separate entity, I'm human in myself, I am not just, you know, because we often feel like we're just like, walking around with children attached to us. And, and with all of the, our, I've painted the woman, you know, with all the arms before balancing all the things and yeah, and and we're so much more than that. And I think once motherhood starts being more valued, because it shouldn't be valued. I mean, we are raising the future of society. So there should be more emphasis placed on the value of mothers. And I think I think we're getting there, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like each each generation is sort of pushing those boundaries and pushing the, the expectations of I'm going to say the patriarchal expectations, because that's basically what it is. Yeah, so each generation moving forward, you know, breaking ground and, hopefully, yeah, no, I think it is, I really, really truly believe that. That each of us, you need all the other moms that are out there elevating other women and, and motherhood. We're making a difference. And, and I mean, we're making a difference to our daughters. They're seeing us do this, and they're gonna do even greater things. So yeah, I truly believe that. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, that's a that's a beautiful sentiment to end on. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate your giving me all right. Thanks so much, Alison, is great talking to ya EJ. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat. We With an artistic mom

Alex Williams South Australian interior designer S1 Ep05 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Alex Williams is an interior stylist, creator, dancer and business owner from Mt Gambier South Australia, and a mum of 2. We chat about why it is so important for her to retain her self identity, how she is going against the mothering modelling that she was shown, and the importance of supporting your husband as much as they are supporting you.... as well as plenty of laughs and light hearted moments too! Alex instagram Check out Alex's infamous Instagram reel here - Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from artists and creative mothers sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mum and continue to make art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Alex Williams has been a creative her whole life from writing songs and poetry as a teenager to dancing fashion, shooting to fame as an Instagram content creator and her current work as an interior designer. This mother of two hails from Matt Gambia, South Australia. Welcome along. Alex, it's wonderful to have you on the podcast today. Hi, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here. What is the best way to describe what you do? What do you like to sort of call yourself? Well I like to call myself an interior decorator interior stylist. Yeah, I love to create I love to style people's homes and create Yeah, interiors that make you very happy to walk into the room pretty much no matter what room that is. I like all kinds of you know, bedrooms and living rooms and office buildings and oh, yeah, at home offices and every all the all the interior kind of things that can be done. I love to do it. So yes, interior stylist. That's my name. Very good. And could I also call you a sort of a Instagram real superstar? I'm not gonna stop you. So funny. I put that reel up. And then my boss. I also worked for Ashley Lauren. And she messaged me and she were both obviously quite, you know, we're well aware of how Instagram works. And we're on it all the time. And she said, Oh my god, can you believe how many views you're getting on that reel? And I was like, No, I could not be more famous. And she was like I don't. And then she had Googled it. And she said apparently 3 million is when it's considered to go viral. And so now I'm up to 2.8 million, so I'm just waiting for it to take over. That is hilarious. Like, who knows how these things work. But I don't like I've done nothing. You know, it took no kind of smarts or skill. It just, you know, it did what it did. It was hilarious. But yeah, it's funny. And it's so funny because I didn't post it for ages because my husband didn't think that's funny. He's like, That's not funny. And I was like, Oh, really then I showed a couple of girlfriends and they're like, that's so funny. And really, because it's taking the piss out of him hit that. So I didn't like Absolutely. I have one single guy has liked it. And but all the women are on board, they're fully on my side. So it's definitely something that women can relate to, that's for sure. Exactly, exactly. I speak to the women, the women have you always been a very creative kind of person, like growing up and I've seen jobs in one way or another and that hasn't always been I mean, you know, growing up I was always the kid in my household that had the clean room and they had the nice things in the room you know that nice bedding and I wanted everything in its right place whereas my siblings were very messy. But that was pretty much it and I always loved I don't do it anymore but I used to love ride writing songs and poetry and then when I moved to mount Gambia I got a job at random country fashion retail store and I even fashion I think is such an creative and expressive you know things so I've always been into fashion and loved you know dressing up and finding you know things with if it's got a bit of leather or not, not real leather fake leather. Got a bit of sequins or fluff or you know anything that's just a little bit textural and catches my eye that I just love all that sort of stuff. So I think yes, on some kind of level I've always been I used to love making jewelry. Yeah, I think I have always been creative in one way or another. Yep. So it's a recurring theme throughout your life. Yeah, absolutely. So you work as as your former work as a an interior stylist. Is that something that you've formally started recently but have been doing for a while as well? Um, I have only been doing it for me before I obviously launched the business. I yeah, I I just pretty much did my own house and you know you have your friends That's a you need to be doing this as a job. It's you're so good at it, and can you come into my house and law, and I couldn't avoid brushed it off because it's just such a career change. And then one day, I just and this is me, I just decided I was going to do it. And that was it. And I. And then that's, that's all I think about now. So I started the business before I studied and I've been studying during, because I just, I'm, I'm Well, two reasons. I'm really impatient. And I love to just do it. I love to get my feet in the water and just start. And also, I believe the best teacher is experience. So I don't think I could have learned anything as valuable as what I have learned working with my clients so far. And then during working with them, I've been doing courses and master classes and things like that, which I have loved as well. So it's been full Bogo, just get into it. It's been awesome. But so that's that's how you tend to sort of do things you just like, right? I want to do it. So I'm doing it. Yeah, exactly. I think if anyone can do it, I can do what anyone else can do. And if I want to do it, I'm gonna do it. Love. So tell us, tell us about your family. Alex, you've got three children. I do a daughter, Savannah. She's five and a little boy named Luca. And he is three. So they're two years apart. And I have a husband, his name is Chris. He is very handy in my business as well. Because he's you know, good at the heavy lifting. He's a painter. So he is great. He you know, he's Williams Way second employee, even though he doesn't know it. The full thing gets worked quite well. So yeah, so yeah, that's my little family, too. And I'm done. I'm all set with them. Because most recently, you were doing doing a photo booth. So yeah. How did that sort of your creativity about fitting in with the kids? I suppose? Like, how, how did you find that the balance? I guess early on when they're little. And then as they've grown up, did you find that was a good kind of working hours that it suited? Yeah, that's pretty much that wasn't obviously that well, not obviously, that wasn't so much of a creative path of something like I have always dreamed of owning owning photos. Yeah. But that was purely, not purely a few different reasons why we open now. You're always in a fun environment you're never at, you know, you're at some of people's happiest days, their birthdays, their weddings. So we love that. And I'm such a people person I love you know, I'm a hot girl. I'm like, Yeah, I'm so excited. You look amazing. Like I'm all about that life. I don't care if I know you or not. So that was right up my alley. When I said before I had children, I worked all day at red gum at the retail store. And then I taught dance at nighttime until, you know, late hours of the night. So I was very busy. I love to be busy. I love to be doing things. So when I was pregnant with my daughter, obviously, both of those jobs stopped. The teaching wasn't something I loved teaching. But it wasn't something I wanted to continue because the hours after school hours into night, which is which in my mind was when I was only going to have time to send my kids because they'd be at school eventually. So that wasn't a career path I wanted to continue on. And I wasn't going back to retail that was just you know, I did like it while I was there. And I met some of my best friends working there. But that was a chapter to close as well. But I said to Chris, there's no way I can not work, like not do anything. So what can we do? And him and I were just brainstorming one night and he said we'd had a photo booth at our wedding. And he said, Why don't we open a photobooth business. There's only one there was only one in town I think at that time, possibly two. And they were blowing up and everyone wanted them and we've got a pretty big town here. So we knew a third could definitely be supported. So that was it. We decided to do that. I wanted something where I could still stay home with the kids during the week were with Savannah during the week. So that was perfect. It was it was nighttime work on a weekend where Chris's parents could watch her. So it just really fit well into our lives. That's what that's how that started. It just was one of those things that was just going to fit perfectly and still where I can earn my own money and you know, contribute to I just like to add I know I noticed one of your questions later is do you need your an identity besides being My mother and I'm like a billion times. Yes. Well, we can talk about that now, if you want. I couldn't just, I know just being mothers. That's that's the sentence that sounds a bit sad. I didn't want to just be a mother. That's not the way I think of a but I know the mother. When I say it, I sort of I like to do air quotes, because you're never just a mom. But yeah, it's, it's I didn't want to be just slave. That's what it's like at the start. Let's be honest. Yeah, you're getting nothing from this newborn. And you're giving every single thing that you've got to, to this little human. So yeah, I definitely needed something else that I could some adult interaction. So yes, that's how that happened. And we've recently just sold that business. Because that's it was weekend work. And now the kids are a bit older. I can work during the week. And we want our weekends free for the kids. So it's first served its purpose. Yeah. And really ideal for everybody at that time to eat satisfied your need for your outlet as well, which like, is just so important, as our Absolutely, yeah. So while we're on the topic, why don't we talk about that now, the concept of identity, it's obviously very important to you. Let me give you a little context of my life. When I was growing up, my mom was a stay at home mom, and my oldest sister. Oh, and you know, any other woman in my life was a stay at home mother. My sister had her firstborn when she was young. She's eight years older than me. But she was young. And so she went straight into motherhood as well. And no, I'd never seen anyone follow a career path. And so when I was young, I, that's all I wanted to do. I want to grow up and I want to be a mom and I want to get married. And Lola. Then when I moved to I moved from I grew up in Queensland, when I moved here, I was 18. I got a job at red gum with Wendy. And I just feel like my eyes were open though. These women, these working women, she got me very involved in the community. And I really, yeah, it's not like I've always felt like that I've always actually been opposite. When growing up, I wanted to be a mum. And now and then as I grew up from 18 onwards, I was the complete opposite. I loved being a part of the community. I loved getting out there. I love socializing. I loved doing my own thing and traveling and things like that. So now yeah, now I'm the complete opposite. Feel like that, then you're sort of role modeling to your own daughter that there are options out there for women now, it's not that 100% That's actually where I was going. Thank you for saying that, though. Was I read? them? Yeah, you really did. Yes, that was my point. So watching my of my people I'd seen that's all I wanted to do. And that's exactly what I don't want to teach my daughter or my son. I want him to see that. You know, maybe when he grows up, he's a stay at home dad and the mom is the one who goes and has the career and Savannah I want her to be the same. I never was taught that I could have a career or, you know, what are you going to do? And you know, nothing like that. And now I am yeah, if I had my time over again, I'd be definitely going straight into career first and and going all in. So I want to I want her to definitely learn and watch me take over the world find it very important that that your children see that you are argues that again? More than just the mother that you actually know Alex that has an existence that is outside of of that mothering role. That's important. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I feel like when well from my personal experience when you think of like my mom, well she left when we were 12 so I didn't have her for very long but thinking of her from when I was younger. I always was very much like that. I was like mom's mom she's there to make me a sandwich and she's there to put me to bed and she's that's that I remember that being my thought process I never saw her do as she never socialized with any of her friends. I never saw her do anything. Obviously it was different back then as well that was definitely the culture you know the stay at home mom and that sort of thing. But yeah, I think that's a little indulgent for children to be able to think that way and and a little not selfish but yeah, I think it's important for them to know that they're not the be all and end all of the entire world. They're not the center of the universe. New love like obviously I love them more than life at Self no do anything for them. But I don't want them to think that my life revolves around them. You still think that there? Yeah, it's not going to set them up for real world? Yeah, no. That's it. You just it's it's unrealistic. It's unrealistic. It's like what your mum modeled to you. And then when you got out there you went, Oh, actually, there is something different. It's like you don't want your children to have that terrible realization all of a sudden that life could have been different for them. Right and some way Exactly. That's right. Yeah. Oh, now I want to touch on you mentioned that you're a dancer. Did you keep dancing through your pregnancies? i Yes. Yep. So I taught. I was still teaching with Savannah. So I taught up until I was I can't remember seven or eight months pregnant, I think, pretty pregnant. And I look back on some of the dance teaching videos. And I was like, Oh, I competed. I competed. I was six months pregnant when we won a Melbourne Hip Hop championships. So that was exciting. My photos of me holding a trophy with my little bumps are very, very cute. And yes, still dance with Luca. When I was pregnant with him. I was asked to be in swing with the stars that year, Kim Sela, who owns hot, one of the owners of hat. She asked me to be in and I hadn't told anyone I was pregnant. I said, you know, I'd love to but guess what, I'm actually pregnant. And this poor guy won't want to lift me by the time senior stuff comes around. He's gonna get good 20 kilos more than what he bargained for at the start. So, but yes, yes, I have never stopped anything. There hasn't been a year, I haven't danced since well, perhaps been open for 12 years. So since then. And again, that's something that you've got that, you know, satisfies your need, and then gives you that creative outlet as well. That's separate to the family side of life. Yeah, that's right. Another hobby? For sure. For sure. Yes, I can attribute a lot of my husband's amazing, he's very supportive. And you know, if I'm like, I'm going to the gym, or I've got dancing, or I'm just going to do a console or I'm doing this and that he's very supportive. He's like, yep, yep. And he knows what he married. So he doesn't not much surprised. And I'm saying with him, he's playing, he plays poorly. And he, you know, loves to go golfing. And we're very, we're very much like, we know, we need to go and do our own thing. And we need to be our own people. And so we try and definitely give each other as much time to do that as we can. When you first had Savannah, how how did you feel I was horrible. It was horrible. It was the hardest thing I have ever done. And it got no easy when I had Luca. When I had Savannah I think well, because I don't have I mean, my mum was here but we're obviously as I mentioned, she had left when we were quite young. So we're not we don't have a super close, you know, Mother Daughter bond that a lot of the people I see have. So I feel like possibly because I didn't have only Chris is literally my support. He's my support system. So I think because I only had him not only had him, he's great. But yeah, he doesn't know anything about being a mom, because he was doing that same time I was so yeah, I really struggled. I found the most difficult. Yeah, I don't know. I think the breastfeeding that that was I remember that being just I remember thinking that was gonna be so easy. They just latch not didn't even know the word latch. And they're just like, oh, and then you you have them and you're like, What the hell is this? Oh my God, everything hurts. Everything is so hard. Everyone's telling you different opinions. At one of I'd only had one other friend who had had a baby. So it was just Yeah, it was really difficult. I was very, very sad. Very sad for probably the first three months and then we decided to sleep train her. I know everyone's got different opinions on that. We decided to slip trainer took two nights was the best thing we've ever done and and yeah, I was just a different human once I started getting some sleep. Yeah, everything became a bit easier on a routine. So yeah, and then Luca came along two years later, and I fell in a heap again, I was just like, Oh God, this is no easier. I had a two year old running around and yeah, I don't know. I just wasn't for me, not the new bond thing. I love their ages now. But I would literally prefer to walk the depths of hell than have a newborn again. I'm not kidding. Yeah, you can I think I don't think enough people are honest about it's it's not all sunshine and roses and sparkles. It's it's bloody hard work and it's definitely not and it depends on your support system. I think I think it depends on who you've got around you to help you. And, and you know, people have good babies not good babies but people have different kinds of babies. Some babies are great. Some babies are just harder than others. Some are have colic, I don't know, you know, there's just so many variables that no one that's why no one can tell you what it's going to be like, because no one knows. We're just gonna have to wait and see. Yeah, surprise to go. Lucky no healthy and happy. Oh my God So were you able to then once we talk about Savannah, like you're able to, as she got older, you got more sleep able to return to some of the things that you really wanted to? Yes, see. So I never stopped dancing, which was great. But when I used to go, it would literally be I'd, I stopped teaching but I went just to I think I was doing two classes a week, when I could, you know, after the six weeks when I could go back and every every time for the first I can't even remember, maybe like two to three months, Chris would message me and say home as quick as you can. And find him with, you know, on the bathroom floor with a hairdryer going on the vacuum going just trying to cut them down until I'd got home. We were honestly like the blind leading the blind around here. Um, so, you know, but every week I was like good luck. So yeah, I'll be back. Like there was a one or two hours a week that I had. So I definitely kept doing that. And then probably she started going to childcare. And, um, I was that was pretty much just for me time I wasn't I did a little bit of photobooth work, but that pretty much that wasn't like a big you know, admin job that was mainly when you're at the events on the weekend. So yeah, look, just being able to eat lunch in peace and clean the house and you actually get a job finished that was I highly recommend that I feel like some parents or mums who don't have a job, they never have a day off from their child. And it's like, no, you need to be getting that child into childcare and having an idea so you might need to get your eyebrows down. You might want to cook a meal you might want to go out for lunch with someone and you know, absolutely that is so important teacher that I mean at some point they're gonna have to go to school and kindy so you might as well get them used to little kitten you know hanging out with other kids before they get so old that they no different you know, when they're young and they're you know, under two they're like, so palatable. Is that the world? Yeah, yeah, you can try to just make them do whatever. They don't have this little sass attitude where they'll tell you what's up so yes, I, I she started doing that. And then I can't remember I was I must have had Luca already. And I was at a women in business dinner and Kelly nodes who worked for Ash, who does still, she was pregnant. And so I walked over to the table. I didn't really know I knew ash and Kelly, but I didn't know them super well. But I was just like, I would love that job. What a time. Yes, that is right up my alley. And so I just walked over there and I was like, Hi girls. How are you? I'm just so you know, if you need someone to replace Kelly, I'm your girl. And that was it. She hired me straightaway. So that was fantastic. I love that and I've been there for a year and a half two years I think so yeah, that was another little I added because Luca Luca was probably a year old by that stage so I was ready to take on a bit more work and I yeah work there two days a week with her so yes, yes, it's great timing to sort of start something new and get a bit more back into the work work industry again. Yeah, absolutely. Another example of you deciding you want something and just going in doing it. Exactly yeah. I'm always I'm always scared but I'm very big on the just because like scared and can't be the reason you don't do something you can be scared three years scared as you're likely still got to do it. You still have to do it. So I was like, petrified to walk over to that table. You know, in front of everyone and I love it. I was like well you still have to do it though. Like you can't not do it just because you're a big scaredy cat like get to But So yeah, I went missing you just gotta you gotta take what you want. Like, yeah. weaken, and they're lucky to have you whoever you are. If you want to do something and you know you're good at it, go and do it. I'm definitely quote me on that one. For me, yeah. Sorry. Well, something else I'd like to explore with my guests is the concept of mum guilt? And I'm going to put that Yes. Once again. Yeah. What's your take on that? How do you feel about that? Oh, yeah, I feel like mom guilt is definitely a thing. Whether you want to call it that, or not, definitely, I feel I feel mom guilt. But I don't really let it weigh me down. I, I feel like, yeah, you know, I might not be so well, this is a great example. I've got my my son's home with me two days a week, he goes into care three days a week, and he stays home with me two days a week. And on those two days, I'm working from home for my business or for Ash, or I'm doing something, you know, around the house, I'm cleaning, or there's a million things to be done. If I hadn't taken on a second job, which is my interior design, I would have all this time in the world to spend with him. And, you know, whatever, you know, play. And sometimes I think he's getting the wrong end of the stick. But then I think he's not really he's so happy to be here, he's happy to have a couple of rest days. Because these are above the days, he's so busy and going and doing stuff. And I think at the end of the day, you might feel guilty doing something or going here and doing something for you. But you can take you can see that your child's happy, like I can see my kids are always happy. When I leave the house, I do leave the house a lot. Like I'll go to the gym, or I'll go dancing, or I'm going to consult or I'm going to see a client about something they're either going to do a job, and they're quite often, especially Savannah shoes, like please don't go again. Mom, please don't leave me. And you do you feel bad knitting, I'm sorry. But you know, what are you gonna do? personal message me and I won't have men down the down the end of the street? And he'll be like, she's fine. Hmm. And, and I always think this is what when I start to feel guilty, I think, Do I have any memories of my mom leaving to go and do something? No, because I happened every single day, it's not something that's gonna they're going to remember, it's not going to impact them, you know, it's not going to scar them for life that you've gone to the grocery store. Like, just yeah, I really, I'm really not into the Yeah, the guilt thing. I just, I mean, obviously, I feel it, but that's not going to stop me from doing whatever needs to be done that day. And you can definitely gauge those moments, you know, she's sick, or you know, or something. And they really do need you. Um, you know, they're the moments where you're like, no worries, like, I won't go today, or I can, I can skip that that's easy, you know, we'll stay home. And, you know, I think every mother can tell what their child really needs. And when the child is just putting on a show. Because they do it every day. So you just have to start to learn which shows you need to pay attention to. And also I think I've been home with you all day, or like we've been together, you know, we spent three hours this morning together. And then two hours this afternoon, your father's just walked in the door, you can spend half an hour with him before it while I'm gone. I think you can. Like it's not I'm not a one parent show. You've got to and you need to learn to enjoy both. Do you find that that experience that you have, as a mother might sort of sneak through into the way that you've reflected in the way that you might put a room together? I think definitely I think that the experience of being a parent and a mother probably affects everything. Every every way, everything I do in life, a great gives great perspective of on, you know, when you're when you're younger, and you don't have children and think I'm so tired. And now you think, Well, that was funny. Like it gives you such good perspective on actual what's really hard in life. And so it definitely is I yeah, I love the perspective it gives being a mother. And definitely in my design work, especially when doing family homes. If the family has children, it's always very handy because you just yeah, it gives me such a great insight as to what actually needs to be considered the height of a bench, how sharp it's going to be where coffee table is going to sit. They're going to be able to run through without you know, hitting a toy, you know, 10 different things, what their bedrooms are going to look like and how they're going to use them. So yes, definitely definitely handy. Having kids is gives great perspective on all things in life, whether you realize it or not probably. Yeah. And I guess you'd be able to maybe make recommendations to clients that might not have considered something because you've got that experience. So the Especially during like nurseries and things like that with new Yeah, when they, when they're new, I think my main thing is don't spend too much because it's gonna get covered in vomit. Don't make it too expensive, because if you want to throw it out and it's expensive you aren't, whereas it's not too bad, you just like, throw it out, donate, I don't want to look at it, let's not even bother with it. Ya know. And I guess too, because you've been there, you realize that maybe I don't want to say things, the things that they think are important, maybe aren't as important. I don't want to say in that way, but has a nice, I feel like it's always nice for someone to be able to give you some guidance. If from I am like this in life, if someone knows something more than me, and they've had more experience with something, I want them to share their, their opinions with me, I feel like a lot of people get their backup when someone tries to tell them. I mean, obviously, there's ways of doing it tries to tell them a certain way. But if someone has more experience in something than you do, and I'm loved, like, especially with my line of work with carpenters and things like that, they know so much. And I want to learn it all I, you know, learning how to use the drill for the first time a couple of years ago, like I don't do it for me, I want to learn how to do it. And I'm more than happy to take on the criticism and the constructive criticism, not just criticism. And you know, I'm happy to listen and tell me as many times as it's going to take for me to get it right. And I think that about everything. I think if someone knows more than you and obviously they're happy and willing to teach you in a kind way, then it's amazing. Like you can never learn too much and every everything in life is going to turn into a skill if you can learn it the right way. So thank you so much for coming on the show. Alex. It's been an absolute pleasure having you. Thank you so much for having me. This has been awesome. I look forward to chatting with you again soon.