Search Results

Listen Watch SHOP Media Website PODCAST Lifeboat SE book alison WOLF EP UPDATES Electronic Press Kit newsletter Sign up circa aurora collection heart songs album COLLABORATION WITH LT BALKIN ESSENTIAL OIL COLLABORATION PODCAST PLAYLIST

Wolf new album EP by Alison Newman Alison Newman, hailing from Mount Gambier, South Australia, is a singer and songwriter creating deeply personal music. Her journey in music has been a dynamic one, marked by a diverse range of opportunities, from small vocal ensembles to large choirs and duos, all of which have contributed to her growth and the evolution of her unique musicality. Alison's musical journey has been punctuated by significant milestones. In 2019, 2020, and 2021, she was nominated for the South Australian Music Awards Folk Artist Peoples Choice Award. She clinched the South Australian State Final of Listen Up Music's 'The Songwriting Prize' in 2021 with her original song 'Pieces of My Pain', which was performed live in Sydney in January 2022 for the national prize. Alison's musical journey began in childhood when she started singing and continued to do so throughout her life. She attributes her eclectic music taste to exposure to various music genres from her family. Her earliest formal singing lessons focused on correct diaphragmatic breathing techniques, and she often performed for her family with her sister Emma during her childhood. Noteworthy is her debut album, "Heart Songs," which was released in late July 2019. Following that, she has released three standalone singles; "Sunshine Sundays" in November 2019, "It's Not Christmas Without You" in December 2019, and "For the Rest of My Life" on Valentine's Day 2020. During the COVID-19 lockdown of 2020, Alison shared her love of creating covers in her project "Circa Aurora," where she covered well-known songs in her unique style. Looking ahead, Alison is currently immersed in creating her next album, an EP titled 'Wolf '. This project, set to be released in June 2024, delves into her personal experience with postnatal depression, promising a deeply introspective and emotive musical journey. “The Wolf plays the role of the PND, and I am akin to Little Red Riding Hood.” Three tracks from "Wolf" have been critically acclaimed; Things Are About To Get Dark won the Australian Songwriters Association. 2021 Exceptional Merit Award in the Rock/Indie Category. Pieces of My Pain won the 2021 South Australian State Final of the Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize and Free Me was featured in the Top 100 Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize 2024. Alison is also a podcaster, producing The Art of Being A Mum, a weekly podcast where Alison enjoys honest and lively chats with artists + creators about the joys + issues they've encountered while trying to be a mum + continue to create. Themes like the mental juggle, identity, how their work is influenced by motherhood, "mum guilt", cultural norms, how they give themselves time to create within the role of mothering + the value that society gives the artistic mother. You can find out more here Things Are About To Get Dark Re told from the moment I experience my first PND symptoms, it is a forboding moment of realisation, it is going to happen all over again. This track won the Australian Songwriters Association 2021 Exceptional Merit Award in the Rock/Indie Category "What a song! It stops you in your tracks!" Nigel Loveday Radio Eastern Melbourne THINGS ARE ABOUT TO GET DARK 00:00 / 03:33 Free Me My cry, in vain, to the Wolf to let me go, to free me, to free my soul and leave me. And I am left to wonder just how did this happen again, and realising that no one is in full control of themselves. FREE ME 00:00 / 03:08 Pieces of My Pain I am feeling cautiously ready to get my life back together, I am starting to feel well and I am literally picking up the pieces and beginning the steps recovering my life. Winner of the 2021 South Australian State Final of the Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize PIECES OF MY PAIN 00:00 / 03:30 Ready for Up I am ready to celebrate the coming out of the fog, I am feeling more like myself, adjusting to life as a new mum. "This music has helped people." Bronte Ellard - 5gtrFm READY FOR UP 00:00 / 02:58 Feel into You The final track, a song to celebrate the people that helped me through Top 100 in the 2024 Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize FEEL INTO YOU 00:00 / 04:01 "I feel like Alison is one of those artists that gives pieces of herself in each song that she releases." RAG MAG radio interviews 18 June ABC Sth East 00:00 / 30:15 30 June 5gtr FM 00:00 / 15:08 1 July 88.3 Southern FM 00:00 / 10:32 9 July Bayside FM 00:00 / 25:46 10 September 5gtr FM 00:00 / 12:13 8 October 5gtr FM 00:00 / 16:52 29 October 5gtr FM 00:00 / 16:10 media The Border Watch - 28/6/24 Limestone Coast Community News - 31/7/24 The Border Watch - 2/8/24 The Alternative Gig Guide - 14/8/24 Media Net - 30/8/24 RAG MAG - 27/10/24 podcasts The Adelaide Show podcast - ep 395 - 23/6/24 The Adelaide Show podcast - ep 405 - 8/11/24 Photos by Renae Lowe Photography Cover designs by Alison

Alison Newman is a singer and songwriter based in Mount Gambier, South Australia. She has developed a heartfelt, personal approach to her music. Her sound is deeply focused on storytelling, and her songs have a strong narrative component, which highlights the emotional link between the artist, and the songs she sings. Alison's music strikes to the heart of her audience. She uses the power of music to transport the listener emotionally. Alison has had a multitude of musical opportunities over the years, which has allowed her to grow and extend on her musicality - from small vocal ensembles to large choirs, duos and singing with many and varied musicians. Alison was nominated for the South Australian Music Awards Folk Artist Peoples Choice Award in 2019, 2020 and 2021, making the Top 5 in 2019 and 2021. She won the South Australian State Final of Listen Up Music 's 'The Songwriting Prize' for her original song Pieces of My Pain, and has her song performed live in Sydney in January 2022 for the national prize. Her debut album of original music entitled "Heart Songs" was released in late July 2019. She has since released 3 stand alone singles, "Sunshine Sundays" in November 2019, "It's not Christmas without you" , in December 2019 and "For the rest of my life " on Valentines Day 2020. Watch the film clip here. Alison has also released many remixes of songs from her Heart Songs album - Nadine using traditional Celtic instruments, acoustic piano mixes of My Angel , Strength in Numbers and Here with Us Tonight, and a dance floor remix of Kasper. During the Covid19 lockdown of 2020 Alison shared her love of creating covers in her project circa aurora . She took well known songs and covered them in her own unique style. You can listen to them on all the streaming services. Alison has just released the first track from her new album Wolf, which you can find more about here She is also works with Aussie DJ and Producer LT Balkin on many collaborative tracks with the first track Smoke and Roses released in April 2021 . Alison has also done 3 songs with Russian/Egyptian DJ Babak Bazgosha. Alison is an experienced wedding, events and venue performer. MORE ABOUT ALISON... Alison started singing as a child and never stopped! Her first performance was singing 'Silent Night' at the Reidy Park School assembly when she was 5 years old. Throughout Primary School Alison was a prolific writer of poetry and stories, never hesitating to share her work or volunteer her services when a concert or fundraiser was being organised. She wrote and performed 2 songs, self accompanied at the piano, at a school concert in year 6. She had some incredibly supportive teachers during this time who encouraged her creativity, namely Geraldine Hinkley, Lyd Kostelnik and Heather Struthers. Her earliest exposure to music came in many varied forms. At home mum played Boney M, ABBA and Olivia Newton John, her dad enjoyed country + western music such as Don Williams and Johnny Cash. Her Nana was fond of Scottish pipe bands and Dolly Parton. Her grandmother loved classical music and Alison enjoyed looking through her extensive vinyl album collection. Alison attributes this eclectic blend to the reason she loves just about all kinds of music to this day. Her first formal singing lessons were brief, learning about the correct diaphragmatic breathing technique before having to quit due to other after school commitments such as horse riding, gymnastics and playing the organ. Alison fondly recalls the Sunday afternoon concerts that her and her sister Emma would put on for her parents, dressing in matching outfits with denim skirts, tights and leg warmers - dancing on the coffee table. Tennis racquets featured as guitars and hair spray cans as mics. The girls would often make videos singing to their favourite artists such as the Bangles, Belinda Carlisle, Morris Minor and the Majors and Bananarama - this was the early 90s remember! After starting high school Alison auditioned to be a member of the Mayfair Singers - her sister Emma had been a founding member just a few weeks earlier. Alison recalls being a bit annoyed that she missed out on the Primary Schools Musical Festival experience, as this started after she had left Primary School. Peter Habib was pleased to have her along, and Alison enjoyed the experience of harmony singing, learning to sight read and the numerous performance opportunities that Mayfair gave her. She spent 20 years as a member, many of those as a leader and Committee Member. She also gained experience in small group singing, duos and trios, and very very large choirs during this time. Her love of harmony singing endured and she enjoys singing with her sister Emma to this day in their Em and Al duo. After leaving Mayfair in 2004, Alison decided to take a step back from organised groups and 'do her own thing'. This lead to the creation of her solo brand and more work at weddings, parties and functions. Throughout this time her love of writing returned, and the 'Heart Songs' album idea was born. She also enjoys collaborating with her sister Emma, and Emma's husband John creating ambient/new age relaxation and meditation music called Alemjo Alison is a mother of 2 boys Digby and Alex, and lives with her husband Ben and cat in Mount Gambier. She produces a podcast called The Art of Being A Mum and in her spare times loves playing Fortnite with her boys and chilling out at home.

WOLF is a five-track EP that wanders through the dark woods of postnatal depression — a shadowed fairytale told in fragments of memory, fear, survival, and healing. In this story, the Wolf is the embodiment of PND itself: patient, prowling, relentless. And I, much like Little Red Riding Hood, find myself slowly swallowed by it — consumed, lost, and unrecognisable even to myself. After the birth of my first child in 2008, I sensed something inside me had shifted. I knew I was struggling with postnatal depression, but I tucked it away in silence, never naming it aloud or asking for help. It lingered like a creature hiding just beyond the treeline, and only later was I formally diagnosed. Seven years later, after the birth of my second child, the Wolf returned fiercer than before. A deeply traumatic labour ended in an emergency C-section that nearly claimed my child’s life and left me carrying the invisible scars of PTSD. This time, the darkness was impossible to ignore. The Wolf had finally come for me in full. But fairytales do not end in the forest forever. With the help of compassionate health professionals, medication, and the unwavering love of family, I slowly found my way back — one trembling step at a time. Recovery was not sudden or magical, but gradual, messy, and deeply human. Each track on WOLF captures a different chapter of that journey. The songs unfold chronologically, guiding the listener from the first uneasy whispers that something is wrong, through the depths of despair and disconnection, and finally toward light, healing, and a return to self. My production team was based in Spain and Argentina, with my vocals recorded at home in Mt Gambier. The songs are in the style of a dark pop, full of melodramatic sounds, using effects to create the scene and tell the story, and layered vocals and harmonies to add more drama. I am a big believer in talking about mental health and breaking the stigma that goes along with it. I recorded a podcast with local mental health help group Lifeboat SE, in April 2019, I am also proud to be a community ambassador for the group. I am so passionate about sharing stories of creative mothers and the intersection of creativity and the mothering role. I do so through my podcast The Art of Being a Mum , which has been acctive since June 2021. Things Are About To Get Dark THINGS ARE ABOUT TO GET DARK 00:00 / 03:33 Re told from the moment I experience my first PND symptoms, it is a forboding moment of realisation, it is going to happen all over again. MUSIC VIDEO This track won the Australian Songwriters Association 2021 Exceptional Merit Award in the Rock/Indie Category "What a song! It stops you in your tracks! Nigel Loveday Eastern FM Melbourne Free Me FREE ME 00:00 / 03:08 My cry, in vain, to the Wolf to let me go, to free me, to free my soul and leave me. And I am left to wonder just how did this happen again, and realising that no one is in full control of themselves. Pieces of My Pain MUSIC VIDEO PIECES OF MY PAIN 00:00 / 03:30 I am at the cross roads - do I fight or allow the Wolf to completely take me over? Winner of the 2021 South Australian State Final of the Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize and National Finalist Ready for Up MUSIC VIDEO READY FOR UP 00:00 / 02:58 I am ready to celebrate the coming out of the fog, I am feeling more like myself, adjusting to life as a new mum. "This music has helped people." Bronte Ellis 5GTR Fm Feel into You FEEL INTO YOU 00:00 / 04:01 MUSIC VIDEO The final track, a song to celebrate the people that helped me through This trackmade the Top 100 in the 2024 Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize "I feel like Alison is one of those artists that give pieces of herself in each song that she releases." RAG MAG RADIO 18 June ABC Sth East 00:00 / 30:15 30 June 5gtr FM 00:00 / 15:08 1 July 88.3 Southern FM 00:00 / 10:32 9 July Bayside FM 00:00 / 25:46 10 September 5gtr FM 00:00 / 12:13 8 October 5gtr FM 00:00 / 16:52 29 October 5gtr FM 00:00 / 16:10 PRINT MEDIA The Border Watch - 28/6/24 Limestone Coast Community News - 31/7/24 The Border Watch - 2/8/24 The Alternative Gig Guide - 14/8/24 Media Net - 30/8/24 RAG MAG - 27/10/24 PODCASTS The Adelaide Show podcast - ep 395 - 23/6/24 The Adelaide Show podcast - ep 405 - 8/11/24

Kate Mildenhall Australian writer, podcaster and educator S2 Ep26 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Welcome back to 2022, Season 2. My first guest of the year Kate Mildenhall, a writer, educator and podcaster from Hurstbridge Victoria on Wurundjeri lands, and a mum of 2. Kate is the author of two novels. Her debut novel, Skylarking , (2016) was named in Readings Top Ten Fiction Books of 2016 and longlisted for Best Debut Fiction in The Indie Book Awards 2017 and the 2017 Voss Literary Prize and The Mother Fault (2020) which was Longlisted for the 2021 ABIA General Fiction Book of the Year and Shortlisted for the 2020 Aurealis Awards, Best Science Fiction Novel. Kate also co hosts The First Time podcast a podcast with fellow author Katherine Collette about the first time you publish a book, and she is currently working on her third novel and undertaking a PhD on creative process. We enjoy a lively chat about failure, creating in a covid world, judgement of mothers, how her mothering influences her writing and why everyone should think like a 40 year old woman. **This episode contains mentions of post natal depression* Kate website / Instagram Twitter @ katemildenhall Books mentioned Rufi Thorpe article - Mother, Writer, Monster, Maid Four Thousand Weeks - Oliver Burkeman The Divided Heart - Rachel Power Making Babies - Anne Enright Listen to Claudia Carvan read The Mother Fault on audible Purchase Kate's books here Podcast instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo - Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome back to season 220 22. My guest today is Kate Mildenhall, a writer, teacher and podcaster. From her speech Victoria orangerie lens, and a mom of two. Kate is the author of two novels her debut novel skylarking, released in 2016, and her most recent released the mother fault from 2020, Kate also co hosts the first time podcast with fellow author Catherine collet. About the first time he published a book, she's currently working on her third novel, as well as undertaking a PhD on creative process. Today, we enjoy a lively and fun chat about failure, creating in a COVID world judgment of mothers, how her mothering influences her writing, and why everyone should think like a 40 year old woman, I hope you enjoy. Thank you so much for coming on case. Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's delightful to chat to you. It's lovely to meet you. Let's share with the listeners. what your background is in what you create. Well, these days, I am a writer. So I've written a couple of books. And my last one was called the mother fault. My first was called skylarking. And I'm currently working on my third book and just added a PhD because you know, COVID times was like times to do crazy things, right? So I'm doing that so and beautifully at the moment. I'm getting to do that, you know, full time in whatever kind of capacity being a full time writer is what that looks like. I know, it looks like really different things for different people. But that's what I do. eautiful So, can you share what your new book is gonna be called? Are you still working on a time we're still working on that one. And I've actually just been away for a week, which says lots of things both about motherhood and guilt and Christmas and being an artist and to work on it. Because it's just been so crazy to try and work on creative projects during the homeschooling and the rest of it. I'm over here in Melbourne. And and I've exploded the book. I've I've I've done something quite radical with it. So that's fine. Just letting it simmer all the all the crazy things I've just done. But yeah, but it's been really fun. I've been working on that for about a year because the mother fault came out last year in the midst of of lockdown. So yes, I've been I've been working away. Oh my goodness. So what's your PhD? So the PhD is is it's really fun and exciting. It's at RMIT. And it's practice based. So it means that I get to do my writing. And I also am a podcaster. So I co host the first time podcast, which is interviews with writers. And a lot of just oversharing myself and my co host Katherine about our general publishing journeys. And, but I get to include all of that. So I get to include the my kind of interviewing and my obsession with creative process because that's what I am utterly obsessed with. So I'm and then my novel is kind of part of it as well. So it's a little bit different to a traditional kind of PhD. So I'm looking really particularly at journaling, and dealing with the kind of creative process and how writers do their thing how writers do their process. That sounds really fun. Like it sounds like it's just it's just a part of what you're going to be doing anyway. So it's not going to be like a tremendous I mean, I'm not saying it's going to be you know, hard to make your life anyway, but it sounds quite doable. Yes, and like it's almost like it's given it a kind of a shape all of the other work that I do you know sometimes when you're in a position and you can describe vibe, you know, this is my writing, this is the podcast and it all kind of links, you know, and having the PhD kind of around that goes, oh yeah, this is really validating to me, because it's a serious thing that I'm doing. Yeah. And also just community. Yeah, you know, I think one of the things that happens when you're writing often and might in before I was a teacher, so I was really used to having lots of people around me and a big collaborator. And so I have often found the writing process to be quite lonely. And so even just having the system of the PhD and colleagues and supervisors and to be able to part be part of that network already, like I'm in the six months in MIT, it's, that's wonderful. Yeah, so it's really meeting that need the that creative space that Yeah, to do so. Also, now the kids are really excited, cuz they like, oh, my gosh, you're gonna be adopted one day? Yes. So they're super pumped about that? Before we get to the kids, I know that was you gave me a beautiful segue there, but I'm gonna go take you back. Yeah. Did you do have you always been a writer? Or you know, when you? No, no, no. So I was at school, like, passionately into it kind of wanted to be a writer, wrote lots, you know, at high school and did the Friday anthology and won awards and things like that. And then I wanted to do this tape degree, Brian MIT writing and editing as, when I left, I went talk to the careers teacher about it. And apologies to people who've heard this story, if any of your listeners had, because I've told it so many times, but the TAFE their careers teacher said, Kate, Smart Girls don't do TAFE and basically said, don't do that course. And I was like, Ah, right. And, you know, not having not having kind of much goal of my own at that stage. I went off and did something else, which I promptly dropped out of, you know, after a year and went off traveling. But I went back and did that, that that course, eventually, which is the delightful thing, but no. So I went and traveled for a while, then I went back to uni and did teaching. And at that time, I kind of, I was writing a little bit like journaling a lot, but writing a little bit, and I, I put something in for a competition, and I didn't get anything, didn't, didn't get anything at all. And after all of these years of like, you know, winning things or getting commended in them. It was such a rude shock to me. I mean, I laugh at it. Now I tell this story to students because and they have a laugh at my expense. But I just I saw it as a huge failure and rejection. And I was like, Oh, I can't I can't write, I'm not going to write. And so I stopped. I stopped for like, all of these years, and I taught and you know, I was passionate about reading about teaching writing, and but I just I, other than my journal, I don't think that I wrote anything during all of those years. And then it was actually when my firstborn arrived that I felt compelled to write again. So yeah, so I writing wasn't, I never thought that I could be a writer when I grew up or that you know that that was a crazy outlandish kind of a thought. It's really interesting you say about that validation that you put that entry in, and it didn't get anything. And then that defines how you feel about your creativity. I had a similar experience years ago, because I used to do in a we had to do a Stanford's when we were proud of this group. And I was used to doing pretty well. And then I went in this larger competition and didn't even place and so I stopped performing. Because I'm not as good as I thought I was. You know, and for years, I let that define me that I wasn't, I wasn't as good as I thought I was. So I just went well, I must be very good anymore, isn't it? It's how do we it's ridiculous. I know. And, and heartbreaking. And often, when I'm talking about it with other writers, I'll say, you know, prepare for it and expect it and like get them in early, get as many values as you can eat early because I wasn't you know, I wasn't I hadn't developed any muscle in that area. So I so exactly like you say I just I did let it define me and like what a waste. I mean, I eventually came back to it. And I'm so glad and I think that you know, anyone who is an artist of any description probably has that kind of pulse in them that it's going to come out at some stage like you've got to make space for that at some stage or else it'll eat you up. And I'm so glad that it did. But I still think gosh, those, those wasted years in there as well. So these days, how do you view that kind of experience? Now? Like, if if you put yourself in something and you don't get it? How do you process that for yourself? That's such a good question. The, the, the last one that I had was actually, in the middle of the kind of process of the mother fault. I, I lost the original publisher and had to go and kind of start, start shipping it out again. And I was in, you know, I was broken for a little bit like it was it was rock bottom, I, I didn't think that I would be able to look at the manuscript again, I was hurt, and yet felt a lot of self loathing, I think. And what I realized during that period, was that I was going to do the damn thing anyway. You know, like that, I think that I had got to a point where I was like, Well, I don't care. I'm going to, you know, this, this book is kind of bigger than may sounds a bit wonky. But you know, we're in that sense, where you're like, I've got to see this thing through to the end, and see what it does. And so that was the thing, in the end that that got me through, and I think it's just layers, isn't it of rejection and failure along the way. I mean, you know, often, and you might be in the same position that, you know, people will say, Oh, yeah, but you your published like, How could anything ever go wrong from here, or you've got the thing, you know, you've already reached the goal, or you've been able to perform there or do that. And, and, I mean, the stakes just get higher, in a sense, and you just get rejected more publicly, with, with bigger stakes along the way. So yeah, yeah, that, that it's been a good, it's been a good learning process. For me, I think. And I just, I really do wish that I just failed more and failed more often. I think, too, when you're younger, no one sort of teaches you how to how to fail, like no one, no one says, Okay, now that now that you've lost, or they were better, or someone thought they were better, what how do you talk to yourself about that? Like, how do you do that, like, no one teaches so true. So you sort of know, just find your own way through. And unlike in both of our situations, it takes a long time. So you sort of think, gosh, if I hadn't done that earlier, what could I have achieved, you know, in all that time and space, instead of pushing things away, you know? Yeah, yeah. I agree. Teachers listening tapes. Had a flat. And that's I'm going on a tangent now. But that's the thing too, like, are we so afraid of those emotions that we don't want kids to lose? We that's why we give them everyone gets a for trying sticker and everyone gets Yeah, more than when we play pass the pass like kids parties. Everybody has to get a wrap up? You know, I know. And it's really hard. Everyone has to keep one has to be happy all the time. Yeah, I think that the hardest thing to do you find like sitting with your kids disappointment, and all those emotions that you can't fix, you know, something going on at school, and you just have to have to resist the impulse to try and fix it and make it make it better all the time. You know, and to take the discomfort away because it's, you know, you do have to feel all those horrible emotions and get and get used to them. That's thing if you don't have the opportunity to feel them, you could never work through them. So then all of a sudden you feel them and you go, what's this? I don't know what to do with this. And yeah, you deal with it in inappropriate ways. Like eating too much or drinking. Absolutely. All of the above. Oh, my gosh. Let's lean into your children. Tell us about your family. Okay, so I have I have two daughters. Gracie is my eldest. She's 10 going on 11 kind of you know, going on 19 And she is fiery and amazing. And then my youngest is Etta. And she's eight. Also fiery and amazing. And, you know, it feels very funny kinda I'm talking about them. At this point, I was actually really looking forward to, you know, to doing this because the book that I wrote is the last one is very much informed by my experience of motherhood. But you end up kind of packaging it in certain ways, like for the book world, you know, you package it in these kind of little sound bites. And, and in fact, the girls think it's hilarious because they were around so much when I was doing promo for the book, because we were all in lockdown. And they, they got really cross a couple of times, because they must have heard me say things like, you know, parenting is really hard. And I didn't like it all the time. Like, yeah, it's true, you know, and I'm gonna have to live with the fact that there's all these sound bites out in me talking about, you know, how kind of shit parenting has been at various times. But they are, they are glorious beings. We've just spent a lot of time together in the last 18 months. And, you know, it's kind of, I never realized the joy of watching them go off to their independent things, and all come back at the end of the day and be able to like, we've all done different things for the day is a very new and strange experience that I think only parents who've lived through this kind of last 18 months really understand. So they're my two. Yeah, they've done things during the day that you don't know about. That would be nice. Yeah, exactly. We're all really, really excited to tell each other about what? Oh, my goodness. So during that time, how did you manage to continue to do stuff during lockdown? Ah, we, you know, we didn't I think we just we just kept on failing beautifully. And when we first went in, so who even knows when that was maybe March, last year, I'm I'm sitting here in this little studio that my darling partner built for me in the backyard, and it was just finished, like, literally just finished the week before locked down. Where Of course, he also moved home and had to kind of write out do his work from home as well. He's a psych nurse. So he was kind of out and about, but also doing a lot of his work here. So this saved us having this actual separate space, because I used to work in the corner of the lantern. So I actually don't think that we would have survived at all, had we not had this. And the other beautiful thing was that because Adam, you know, his workplace was really good and quite flexible, so that he could do a lot of the homeschooling stuff in the mornings and then go out, you know, we just kind of juggled a bit between each other. And, and the kids, we live, we live kind of on the outskirts of Melbourne, there's a lot of trees, there's a big reserve behind us, like, I did feel extremely lucky that we had a bit more space around us. And, and we did you know, some of it, maybe the first two locked, it wasn't really, some of it was really lovely. And I think we did do that stuff of going, okay, we can have a fire in the backyard on a Wednesday night. And, you know, I would walk with one of the girls in the morning before they started just to give them a bit of space away from each other. And we did really pay attention to the flowers and the mushrooms and the birds and you know, so So for all that it was incredibly difficult. And there's also quite a few kids in our street. And we live in, you know, a little space where we could offer each other that support with other families and, you know, playing in the street, and across driveways and things like that. So I think really, we didn't you know, I lost a fair bit of work but but was still able to carry on, you know, we weren't in a really difficult kind of position with our jobs, and Adam kept his job. So for all those things, I think, you know, we were in incredibly, incredibly lucky. But also, as I said, to all of my mates and all of our WhatsApp threads, who had kids, you know, as we all kind of know, you know, we would all spiral down at certain points and just say like, I can't do this, I cannot do it anymore. I can't because it was never part of the deal that we signed up for right as parents, especially when then especially when you've already sent them out into the world and off to school and the rest of it like to suddenly have these big, curious, active social kids home with you all the time. And we're just we're just not equipped to provide everything that was partly out of the better the deal. Oh, man, look, hats off to you guys over there like we've we've had Touchwood we've had nothing as extreme as that. So yeah, you guys were often in our thoughts over here, all the Melbourne people, it's just unreal what you've been through. So, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, it's sad, and to be able to maintain your creativity maintain. Yeah, and I think creativity, you know, at times, and I've talked about this with a few friends in the writing world. You know, I was like, oh, gosh, maybe I should just go and train, retrain, I'll retrain to be like, a personal care attendant, or, you know, like, if there was that sense of, like, what is the point of doing my art in, you know, in a burning world, in a burning world, in a world that's collapsing, and so there was that pressure, but also the kind of focus or deep work that I find I need to do creative work just wasn't there, you know, I couldn't you at any stage knew you're going to be interrupted, couldn't get purchase on any kind of thought to go deep on it, I am often need to go away, or that's the way that I've done my kind of writing practice is that a few times a year, when it works, I'll go away for a few days, either with a writing group or on my own and, and go really deep on it. And that's where I find you know, I have real breakthrough, so to not have any of that, but also to not have any of that kind of friction of being out in the world, you know, and, and seeing people or interacting with people or observing things, or being able to go to the ocean, or all the things that would normally fill me up so that I have some kind of something to give some output. Whereas I felt like what what do I possibly have? I've been inside my house, with my children, you know, worrying and that anxious, you know, that kind of being in lizard brain mode of at any stage about that uncertainty, but also thinking? Am I supposed to panic now? How am I protecting my children, you know, and being fearful of other people, for the first time was a very strange kind of thing. And I think it'll take a while for us all to get to the other side of that. Hmm, absolutely. It's sort of I had a moment where I was going for a walk one day, and all of a sudden, I just thought, oh, shit, has that person got COVID? Like, I was just starting to panic. And I felt myself sort of shiver and, and I just sort of backed up and went home real quick. I thought, this is a horrible thing to be thinking. Yeah, well, but it was like, and then every time you turn the telly on everything on the radio, you just couldn't escape it. And it was just disastrous. So that's when I basically came into my studio and started music, more music stuff, I just had to get out of the current world and go back into a different world. So you found it. So you could do that. You could then put your energy into that space. Yeah, that's I basically had to, I use it as an escape. Maybe. I just had to end. What I ended up doing was I look, I was I was listening to a lot of older music, I think to take myself out of the current time space to Yes, yes. So I started doing covers of, of older songs. And I ended up releasing them all because it was like, I created different versions of the songs, got different backings, got a piano player, change the tempo, all this stuff. And it was sort of my way of looking back on it. Now. I don't think I realized at the time, but, but making sure that things were different. That changing. I didn't like what was happening. So I was changing it in some way. You know, I love that. Yeah. It's really that's the first time I've actually articulated that out loud. That's really interesting. Well, it's very profound. You mentioned before about your mother's hope novel, now you write fiction. So yeah, at school, I could never remember the difference. That's your struggle. I'm just, yeah, fiction made up, which means it's made up. But you mentioned that your mothering role had a lot of influence over that. So what sort of themes were you exploring in the book and I apologize, I haven't read your books. No, absolutely. Read say that. Because I I'm not a very good reader. I don't like to sit still and read. Isn't that terrible? No, not at all. Not at all. Then they, the mother fault is a it's a kind of a thriller. It said in the very near future, and it's about a woman MYM, who's got two kids, Sen. Sam and when the novel opens, her husband, Ben has gone missing on an overseas mine site. And in this very near future, Australia, everyone has tracking chips in their hands. But he's offline, they can't work out where he is. And very quickly, she's told to stay where she is, and not to investigate it any further. And so she does. So she does, because they kind of threatened to take her kids away from her. And she says stuff this, I'm gonna go and find him. And so she goes on the run. So she crosses Australia, with the two kids and then gets on a yacht and, and sails to Indonesia to try and search for him. So, you know, where the idea came from. My first book was historical fiction, so nothing at all in this kind of world. But when I finished skylarking, I was kind of sitting with this idea of the kids at that stage. Maybe Esther was like, two and Gracie was four, I think. And I was deep in that bit that those trenches where you like, wow. Not at school yet. So you're doing that kind of childcare, kinder, you know, crazy run every day is no more than kind of two hour, lots of anything. And I, and still that period, where it's just really hard. It's just really hard, you haven't I hadn't kind of totally I'd had this moment when the book came out of kind of re re identifying as, as, as a writer, and while I'm a professional out in this world, but also, then I just come home, and it's just, you know, back to packing snacks and feeling guilty about them not being organic, and the rest of it. And so there was that stretch, there was that kind of huge amount of feelings, both positive feelings, I adore these kids, I will do anything for these kids, I would kill for these kids at the same time as sometimes wanting to run away. So there was those feelings that I had. And at the same time, it was very deep in the political kind of craziness of the asylum seeker debate, and which, of course, we haven't at all fixed or done anything good about in this country. And so I was kind of like having that daily thing of the news of watching, particularly women who were, you know, crossing oceans in really unsafe ways to try and make their kids safe. At the same time going, I just want to run away from my kids like, how, how are these two? How can I reconcile these feelings? Yeah, so for that reason, you know, over time, I realized that I wanted to write about a woman, you know, on the run, trying to kind of protect our kids, but also trying to make sense of who she is, and what she's allowed to want. Now that she's a mother, and is she allowed to want the things that she used to want. She you know, she has a kind of crazy affair with an ex lover on the boat, in, in the book, not not a real spoiler, because lots of people talk about it when they read the book. And, you know, it was that kind of thing. And people have got cross, like, it's one of the things in the book that people are really cross about. Because that, I think, when we, when we look at mothers in fiction, and mothers in general, in society, we have all these expectations of how they're supposed to behave and how they're supposed to feel, and what they're supposed to prioritize. And if you kind of, you know, poke the bear, I suppose, and say, well, maybe this isn't what, what we want, or what we always want, and maybe it's complicated. You can get some big responses out of people. So, you know, that's what I kind of wrote in my, my feelings. I also, you know, there's a kind of thread of, it's not named, but postpartum depression, which I think I probably had but never really understood. The first time around with my first with my first daughter. Yeah, so everything, all of the feelings, all of the feelings, I kind of composited into the book. Did you find that was the way view of you're dealing with that stuff? Like you use that as a way to work through things? Yeah, I do think so. I think I was so compelled at that point to write about the motherhood experience, and in a way where I really wanted him to be kind of this superhero figure. And in fact, beautifully a couple of reviewers have kind of commented that you know, like, she's the kind of Jack Reacher of she's just like mum version of Jack Reacher and I love that. I love that because it was about it. saying, you know, I definitely don't have any answers in there. But, but being able to talk about it and being able to look at this idea that instead of, instead of what I feel like there's some pressure to do, which is to say, oh, okay, I'm a mum now. And so now I do things in a, in a mum way, like, I erase this kind of version of myself that was there before, which, it just seems so crazy, but I think to a level where or compelled to do that a little bit like, okay, you know, now we do things this way. And, and it was great to be able to examine this, this feeling of going on, I am still that young version of myself too. As part of it, I went on a yacht, I'd never been on a yacht before. And I, I crude, I volunteered to crew on a yacht, from Darwin to Indonesia, in a race. And, like, it was, it was crazy. It was one of the craziest things I've ever done. And it was incredible. And part of what was incredible about it is that it was scary, you know, and, and I, I reached new levels of fear. And when I was underneath, you know, at one night in my cabin, before, when I came off the late shift and thinking, we're going, you know, this boat is going to tip over which of course, that's not what happens. But if you think I'm gonna die in this boat, and that's going to be ridiculous. And my daughters are going to think, Oh, Mom was doing this stupid research for a stupid book. And she drowned in the middle of the table. It's a, but when I got to Amazon as well, I got to travel around a bit. I stayed there for a few extra days. And on my own, like traveling on my own, like I hadn't, you know, kind of really ever, but also, I remembered that my 19 year old self who was a backpacker who, who could make a decision on the corner about which way they were going to go and not to reach consensus with an entire family about what they wanted to eat or what snack they wanted it. You know, it was remembering that kind of that kind of sense of myself, which I think was powerful. Oh, that's incredible. That's, that is so good. And that's when you had your sordid affair. Yeah, no, definitely not. That part wasn't true? Yeah, that's that is so cool. Because what you're saying about society's expectations of what a mother should be? I feel like that is that that's what seems to drive the mom guilt. I think it's like, you see, or you do a post on your socials or whatever, or you see someone else's. And there's all these comments and you think, across what are we supposed to be doing then? Are we supposed to be spending time with the kids? And we're not supposed to be spending time? Are we supposed to be going getting our hair done? Without? Like, it's all this constant? Yes. Judgment. Yeah. Yeah. How do you do that? So I think, you know, I actually had a gorgeous, gorgeous dinner last night with, with very old friends that I went to school with. And, you know, as always, as we talk about work and life, and our marriages and our kids, you know, we were commenting and we've all just we're in the the years of old turning 40 that we've just reached part where we an excuse the language, you can put a language you want to have no fucks left to give. And, you know, but but we were commenting, like how that's been a slow process, and that in all those early years, like, all those things, am I packing the right snacks? How many cakes? Should I bake for the cake store? Should I be on the Kinder committee? Should I you know, how will we how are we approaching this way of parenting the kids like, just constant self judgment, constant comparison? And then additionally, if you're a creative, so you've got all that world over there, and then if you're a creative, you've also got the like, how much of myself can I give to my parenting and how much of myself can I can I keep over for my art and how selfish I was just rereading this amazing article by roofie thought which I'll send through to you. It's called Mother writer monster made and it was something that I was really touchstone for me while I was writing the book, and it's about her kind of really grappling with this idea of, I think it's Jenny awful, who says about being an art monster, like, you know, that, that, that there's this sense that throughout history, you know, all of the, you know, the old white male writers like they just set up in their studios or whatever their attics writing while they had a wife to do everything else, they didn't see their children, they could, they could spend all of their energy, all of their intellectual space, all of it on, on doing their work. And I don't, I don't want to do that, like I, I do want to kind of be involved and go down and see the carols at lunchtime and do those things. Like I feel very lucky that it's worked out in a way that I do get to be present. But also sometimes I do not sometimes I want to go away for two weeks and work on my book and forget, honestly, forget for a minute that I have children, because I think part of it is that that enormous part of our brain, which is constantly, constantly with the kids somewhere, you know, worrying about or just ticking over slightly, you know, have they got something today? Have they got that bag, all that present that I need to get, you know, and then and then the biggest thing is, are they happy? Have we made the right decision? Should we send them to an alternative school sheet, you know, all of the things that just wind around in your head all the time? And sometimes I think, Wow, if I? What could I do with that space? You know, what can I do with that space? And I think I had the most I had the beautiful kind of opportunity to interview Helen Garner for our podcast. A couple of weeks back, you bring that up? Well, it was incredible. But you know what I had? I you know, I've read her for so long. And I asked her about why she hasn't had to answer the motherhood questions so much. I mean, she talks about motherhood in her journals, particularly, but I was kind of wondering whether it was just my age that she did get asked that, you know, maybe when she first published monkey grip, and she says, this most glorious thing about, you know, when she had her daughter who's about to turn 50. So that gives you a sense, or who's a bit older than 50, I think. She said we didn't have a choice. Like it wasn't a decision to make, we just had kids, there was no anxiety about it, there was no thinking that it was a choice. And she's she tells this beautiful story about you know, for better or for worse that basically she kind of strode out into life. And she, she told her daughter to, you know, to kind of keep up. And she and she, you know, typical Garner always says, I don't know if that was the right way to do it. But that's how I could do it. And I and and she acknowledges also that there's just an an incredibly different level of anxiety around even the decision to have children now, which has made it all the more complicated. Think, yeah, because everything is a decision and you're so conscious about what am I saying? Yes to what am I taking away from my kids? Should I just be sitting here kind of being around for them? Or should I go out and do the thing that I really want to do, which takes me away from them, but, you know, maybe in 20 years, they're going to say, Gee, mom really did what she loved. You know, that's what you have to kind of hope right? across you. Be in therapy talking about us? Exactly, exactly. We can I mean, we can't do it. Right. You know, there's ways that we can, I suppose, try and mitigate against a failure and really bad ways every day for them. But I, I have got better we talked about failure before I've also got better at realizing that um, you know, I'm going to stuff this gig up this parenting gig up constantly, constantly, I'll stuff it up and, and being able to say that to the kids as well, you know, maybe is, is one way of getting through it. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I wasn't even. You mentioned, do you have girls have heard you say comments like that, while you're at home doing you your book launch? Is it important to you that they actually see that you are going out and doing stuff? I don't want to say not just being a mom, because there's no Yeah, being a mom? Of course, you're I'm hearing that. Yeah, no, it really is. And you know, the first time that that was truly validating, so I went on mat leave from at that stage. I was working in this at the State Library doing education there. And I went on mat leave. And that's when I realized I think I said before, you know, when Gracie was born, I just felt this extraordinary urge to write again and it kind of came at me in different ways. I tried to join a local writing group, it didn't work then you know, and not until Esther was born. Did I really go Okay, that's it. I'm gonna I'm going back to uni. I'm going to do it. And which led to some of the first kind of guy games that the kids played when they were, you know, doing imaginary play, were picking up laptop bags and going to you playing going to uni. And I thought I remember thinking, Oh, this is a good thing, let you know, like that they are seeing me do this, that it's this kind of crazy working life that I have. But they're, you know, incredibly proud of it. They like googling me, they think that's really fun. But, you know, and so they liked that part of it. On the other hand, it you know, at some point they will, maybe they will read, the mother felt and that's terrifying. Like, I think I will feel really unscanned by that process, because I you know, it has, it is really revealing of the fact that sometimes you don't want to have to be both, you don't want to have to be a mother and artist and friend, and you know, partner and all of those things. You just like, just give me some space, just do one thing. But But I also think I've tried to be really open, the kids have seen me at rock bottom, the kids have seen me on the days where I've had to close the door and have a cry and say, just let me have a cry, Nia, you know, I need I need time out. And for better or for worse. That's the kind of way that we've run with it. So hopefully, they will, you know, they will see that as an honest part. But I am conscious to that. You know, I haven't written memoir, and I think it must be really hard for people who are writing nonfiction and kind of living living their lives. And their children's stories far more openly. Like I'm conscious of that. And I do read with with close interest how people navigate talking about their kids, when they start to have a profile in terms of what their art does as well, I think that's just hard. I don't have any answers to that. Is you have to think you'd have to be so considerate of them. Have them exactly be so aware of. Yeah, it can be quite hurtful for them. You know, it's Yeah. And as they start to talk about, you know, I think one of the things that happened which is really funny in the process of it took me four years to write the mother fold is that, you know, Gracie, Gracie grew up, and I and so I changed the one of the characters se she actually grew older, I made her older in the course of it because it was suddenly became so fascinating talking with my daughter, you know, like, when they get to that part where they start, you know, you start having really interesting kind of conversations and they're curious and and they've kind of leveled up in the intellectual stakes. So much so that you think whoa, whoa, what have we got ourselves into here? This is a real little human who has like, really big thoughts about the world. So you know, that's interesting as well, to me, that's, that's wonderful. And I love their perspective or perspective on the world and the way that they can so throw you with their truthiness. Sometimes, oh, gosh, yeah. I work in childcare. That's That's my day job. And I see you get those. I'll never tire of the amazing things children really funny things, but things yes. Just makes you stop and think and go, Oh, my gosh, you're seeing the world in such a different way to me and it's wonderful. You know, it might pull yourself back of seeing this whole you know, where they're oblivious of so much stuff and it's wonderful love to be able to be like that again. Be overawed by all these big things that are happening and just be concentrating on this. This crayons not not the crown the next sharpening biggest thing in my world right now is to get that sharpener, or I'm not gonna be able to do what I need to do you know, just Yeah. Oh, just living so simply and in the moment, in the moment, not worrying about not worrying about you know, the possible trials that will come when they're teenagers. I love that they're doing it right. It's beautiful. I love that. Do you think that that huge desire and drive that you had to get back into your writing when when Gracie was a baby was that some of that born from sort of finding your, I don't wanna say, reclaiming your identity, but perhaps trying to discover who you were at that time. Like, I'm a mom, it's really interesting that mean for pre K, yeah, it was, you know, I had, I had done these little tiny baby steps to stepping away from what I thought was expected of me. So, you know, I thought that my parents were both teachers, while I had attempted to do this little kind of attempted at the end of school to do this, something else, you know, media, TV, whatever, it didn't work out, and I thought I will, you know, what you do as a, as a good member of societies that you work in nine to five job and you it's actually more than nine to five, because they were teachers. So it was kind of, you know, all consuming, and you do that really well and passionately, and then you, you know, you have a partner and you get married and, and buy a house and, you know, go camping and all the things like I was really like, this is what you do with your life. And when I had this opportunity to go to the State Library to work for under secondment kind of thing just for for three months. And suddenly I was like, Oh, wow. Like, the world is not just like a school, you know, like, there are other people and they have better like work life balance than I do, you know, and all of this kind of stuff. So I started unhooking myself a little bit from what I thought was expected of me. And then the shock of being a parent. And, you know, it was we had, we were 10 days late, Gracie was breached out to have an emergency cease, like it was not, it wasn't how we planned it at all. So it was all a bit of a shock. And in the first six months after Grace's birth, I lost two grandparents, both who have whom I was really close to. So it was kind of just a bit of a shitshow. And I think I found the capacity to write things down. Kind of hilly or like that there was this enormous force, you know, that visceral kind of thing, when you when the kids are born, you're kind of leaking, no one tells you how much you're going to leak like you just kind of wet for, I don't know, for six months, maybe longer, you know, like and how much and the sleep deprivation and all of those the just the craziness of the world that you're in, as well as that feeling of being affronted that no one told you it was gonna be like this, even though they attempted to. But no one really, no one really kind of told you and then I think being out in the world, I clearly remember, you know, I had that I had a year's worth of maternity leave. And I remember like, I don't know, go into the park or something immediate friend for a coffee on a Wednesday, lunchtime and going like, Wednesday, lunchtime is a time in the world where people are not just at their work, like people are out there in the world. And they're doing other things. And I know it sounds really crazy now. But I really did have to deprogram myself to what I thought life was meant to be. And even in that first year after skylark in, you know, and since the mother faults come out, it's still a daily practice of going this is a kind of a life that I've made for myself, that makes me incredibly happy and fulfilled and it does not meet, it does not check all the boxes, like doesn't check the financial box doesn't check, you know, a lot of the boxes, and yet I am so much kind of mentally healthier and happier than I was when I was killing myself trying to you know, be a teacher lot of the writing of the mother fault is about geology as well, I did all of this incredible kind of reading about geology, and I think it is that, um, you know, you kind of, they shift you off, they shift the axis, you know, you kind of it's kind of like and start you're spinning in a in a different kind of direction. I think having having the kids and I don't think, you know, I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that they make you better or wise or anything like that, because I know plenty of incredible humans who are not parents and they are incredibly wise and amazing and have kind of lived the full breadth of experience. But I think in terms of what it does for you personally is that it kind of just kicks you off where you are, and you have to look at you have to look at everything differently and and in that act of shifting I think I think Matt label or you know if you're lucky enough to have it or at least that space where you're kind of recovering from actually birthing or or having a newborn in any way that because it it so dramatically changes your day to day that you are forced to to reconsider things and often I think it's a real shame like, especially for friends who, particularly the men, who didn't necessarily get any parental leave or things like that, like life just kind of rolled on. And that, that what I'm so grateful for is the big kind of abrupt shift that made me go, Okay. Well, how do I want this to be? You know, how do I want my life to be? And I've got, I've now got a little human on the outside of me, who's also my responsibility. But how do I want our life to look? Yeah, and without that, you probably would never have come to that realization, you would have just kept going along, doing it slowly along exactly. I just wanted to touch on, you mentioned about the mother for having like, the geology. And so the title of the book is that, I'll give you my take on it. Yeah, because I really loved English at school, and I loved analyzing things. And to this day, my sister, it drives me nuts. When we watch movies, I'm always picking up the love that she's in the light. He's higher than her. She's all this sort of, you know, so basically, this is my take on it. And I say, again, I haven't read it. So I can't say, but it's, to me, it's two things, right? It's the fault. As in fault, as in the mother does things wrong, whatever, you know, no, one's perfect. Finding your way, whatever. And then the fault of like, the geology, like the fault lines of the things that move the earth, sort of Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Brilliant. Absolutely perfect. And it's not, um, it's not a technical one, someone who did a read for me at one stage was like, Is this a technical term? Like the greatest, you know, fault line? And I said, No, I totally just made it up. But in terms of, but yes, absolutely refers to that. But the funniest thing was that when I kind of got to it, and and it is that one of those beautiful things we I, I came up with the title myself, because often, you know, often publicy and you know, the publisher will do a title for you, because the one that you've got is shocking. But um, so I did come up with it myself. And I called my mom. And I was like, Ma'am, I've got it. I think I've got the titles of calling the mother felt. And she said, Oh, you can't call it that. And I said, why? And she said, Ah, because it's always the mother's fault. Like people associate those words together all the time. And I was like, Yeah, I know. Like, that's the point. And so many people have said, booksellers, particularly that like, women will comment on it, whether or not they buy it, and sometimes they do, but they will comment on the phrasing of it, because, and, and it provokes a lot of feelings. And I think that I think, you know, we love to a fault. As well as all of that guilt stuff about, you know, me in the book, you know, is kind of like running across the country, you know, escaping from the government, these shady government forces who are looking after her looking after the kids, and she's still wearing, like, oh, maybe we've had takeaway too much this week, like, you know, you know, because that is, that is how the brain works, you know, that you're, you're in absolute kind of danger mode. And the other thing is that, you know, when, when I won't give away the ending in the book, the part that I often read out, too, is that towards the end of the book, when MIM kind of works out what her husband's been up to, and she's really cross and she says, You know, I would have liked to be a hero too, but I was at school pickup, you know, and that, that in the end is what happens to us, you know, like, that is, that is literally in a nutshell. Brilliant, yeah, you know, that you you could do anything you could do you could be anything, you know, that this the possibility of what we have available to us. And of course, part of that is also being a parent and, and that the possibilities that are opened up with that, and the kinds of highs of our our extraordinary, but also the day to day logistics of it are just shit. You know, they just really, and I'm sure some people enjoy it, but I do not. And I know lots of people who do not, and they take up time and brain space and energy and and if there was one thing that I think kind of delicious thing that came out of COVID and lock downs is this tendency, which I hope we can try and hold on to which is to say, okay, maybe we can just have a fire in the backyard on Wednesday night and not do 18 afterschool activities and go to every party and say yes, they have We think maybe we can just, you know, hold on to a little bit less to think that it's enough the way that we're doing things. And then we have space for those other big, crazy wild possibilities that we want for ourselves or for our families. That would be a nice thing. I think I totally, totally agree with that. I can recommend a book which I just listened to on as an audio book. It's called 4000 weeks. Oliver Berkman, I think his name is. And the premise is, if we live to AD, that's what we've got 4000 weeks, that's only, you know, 4000, Saturday nights, 4000, Sunday mornings, and it was kind of like, it was very confronting when I first started listening to it, but his premise is, you know, it's limited, it's finite our time here. So you got to be when you can't do everything. And we think we've been fed this lie that we can, particularly women, particularly in the last 20 years, you can do everything you can have you agree, you can be kids, you can look amazing, your house can look amazing. You can see all your friends, you can have a great marriage, like bullshit. Yeah, you actually just cannot get to doing this. Yeah. It's impossible. It is impossible. And, you know, the book, I keep saying to my partner, you know, like, it's changed my life. He's like, your only two days in my blog post finishing the book. So just, maybe it hasn't changed your life yet. But I feel like it's got the capacity to have I keep reminding myself like, you know, I'm 40. Now like, that's it. I'm halfway through my 4000 weeks, like, come on, what are you going to do with the rest of them? You know, make them count? Can I ask I don't know if this is a sacred or not, but does mean get another book about it? Does she? Does she ever come back? You know, what she not at this stage? Lots of people were super duper interested in that, because it's left on a bit of a cliffhanger. Oh, hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah. I hadn't I hadn't planned there to be and hopefully. Yeah, I can't, I can't make any large announcements about such things. But hopefully, hopefully she gets a turn to, you know, be adapted into screen in some way. Oh, yes, but not that I would say anything about that. But hopefully, that's something that happens. I love this podcast because I find out things about other artistic pursuits that I know nothing about. So tell me how, when you write a book, do you then have to go you have to go find someone to publish it for you. You have to send it off to lots of people and stuff. Well, essentially, what we're how it works, that that's essentially how it works. One of the one of the great lucky breaks of my life is that when I was starting the course that I did the writing course at RMIT, I started writing skylarking as part of, you know, subject to their novel subject. And I actually managed to get that picked up by a publisher before it was finished. So it's very rare that that happens. And that happened. Which was incredible. And since then I've got an agent. So in Australia in particular, definitely in the overseas, the best thing to do is to find a literary agent, if one can you know, I mean, the other thing about it that's been so strange, is you kind of think, oh yeah, I got my first book published. And now I'm just gonna get books published. Like, that's the way it rolls. And of course, that doesn't happen either. Like every single one is still, you know, has to be great. It has to be ready to be published, it has to there has to be space in the market, there has to be all those other you know, everything has to kind of align and combined. So that's why so often, you know, writers in this country, in on average $12,000 A year from their writing, like it's ridiculous. I mean, there's a few outliers, but that's why so often they've got all the other hustles that they have, whether or not they're in writing, like any artists in this country, in fact, because we're so ridiculously and chronically underfunded and undervalued. But you know, that's why having this little bit of time where it has been, I have been able to do it because I got an advance for the book. So I have been able to just focus on writing and feel validated that I don't also have to take on every teaching gig and every workshop key you know, and because that's, that's really hard and that's the other side of the you know, Being an art monster, or, you know, being creative is that then you've got to also manage your own business, about that. And all everything that that comes along with that, which I think often too, is not instinctively where an artist strengths might be. Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, it's very hot, you know, and we want to collaborate, and we, and we want to do all the things and we want to be excited. And it's really hard to kind of insert yourself in there and say, Actually, but hang on, am I being paid for this? Or Hang on? How many hours? Is this gonna take me? Um, one of the things that one of my gangs do have women all have, we're all right, as we're all parents. And at certain times, we've written each other's like, hardcore emails for each other. Whether we're saying, no, actually, we need to be paid more than that, or this is how much I'm charging, because it's still so instinctively hard to do it yourself. I'm getting better at it. But it's still really hard to do it. To do it yourself. Yeah, so the business side of it is just an absolute mess. But I must say that having a my incredible agent on board now. And she's amazing, and she just no bullshit. And she does the, the bits that I both don't understand. And I have no energy for and she lets me in, which protects the time that I have then to write, which is what soulmates? Absolutely. Wow, that's awesome. So because you've written because, like you said, about getting your advance is that because you sorry, if I'm Hope I'm not being too personal. Like, no, no, go ask. This is what we should be doing. We should be talking about the business stuff. Yeah, really? Yeah. So did you have to present the idea for the book? And then they were so we really liked this. So we're gonna give you the funds to give you the time and space to create it? Yeah, what often happens is that you'll get sued by Agent took the mother fold out and took it to various publishers, and then the publishers all kind of, you know, I was in the fortunate spot to kind of have a number of bids in from different publishers. So then you kind of talk about it, you talk to everyone and see who's a good fit. And who's let's be very frank, who's got the most money. And at that stage, they'll often say, so people will often get contracted in a two book deal or a three book deal. So they'll say, What have you got next. And hilariously, we were off, and we were doing a trip around Australia to visit our mates who live up in the Kimberley. So we take him through, you know, eight weeks off, put the camper trailer on, we were way out in this remote community had very little phone reception. And I'm trying to like pitch my new book, which I hadn't written a word of. The second book is cut, it's kind of a little bit of this, it's kind of a little bit that so that's often what happens is that you kind of pitch a concept or, and some people really don't like being contracted, like some writers will say, Oh, the pressure of having a contract hanging over my head for the next book is too much. I can't write like that. I'm a bit of a deadline person. So I kind of like it. Having said that, I've already missed my deadline. So that's that's the way things go to. So I wanted to ask you about your podcast. Yes. The first time. It's funny. Do you get this a lot when people google it, they think it's about something else? Yes, yes. Yes, we do. We do. And in fact, there is another one which is about the which came after us. And of course, now we've now it's hilarious, because it's we're forcing we're about to start our fifth season next year. And we've also now you know, I'm up to publishing my third book, Katherine's publishing her second book. So the premise at the start was that it was about the first time you publish a book. And because Catherine was about to publish her, so we chat to each other about all the things you know, what do you do for a launch? The kinds of questions you're asking as well, like, how do you find an agent, you know, what's meant to cost? As well as interviewing Australian writers about their kind of the first time they published a book and what they've learned since which is, which has been nice. Yeah, cool. So you're gonna change the show to the third time that you've heard? Yeah, I know, we were like the first and subsequent times. And now we've got such a brand that I feel like we can't change it. But this year, or next year, we're actually going to, we're hoping to focus we got some really kind of, I talked to Maggie Chipstead, US writer who was shortlisted for the Booker Prize this year, and, you know, getting Helen Garner to speak, you know, we've kind of been begging our friends in the first season to like, Well, you talk to us to now. You know, all these books arrive every day the publishers are out. We get pitches all the time, we can't possibly fit on everyone who, you know, we've been asked to have. So it's this real switch. But you know, a bit like you I think I just I'm, I'm so obsessed and curious about how other people do the thing that they do and how they manage To make it work, and I'm like a bow burden. So I saw I still little bits of everyone's processes and ideas. And, and I just think it's incredibly, it's incredibly interesting. It's incredibly interesting to have those conversations with people. And, and also, I don't think I realized Katherine actually was at an event the other night, and she messaged me afterward. And she said, people really listened to us, like people really came up and said, like, it's really helpful. I really, you know, your voice is so familiar. And I think the beauty now of podcasting, and you would know this is that it feels you know, you forget that however, many people are going to download it later. And you just, you're very, you're sitting often now in your own home, and you're very intimate, and you're very frank. And then you forget sometimes, what you've said, when someone comes up to you are random, and oh, I loved what you said about this about your marriage. I'm like, shit, and I say that. But yeah, you know, I I've become, yeah, I've become really digital. I mean, my dream, my dream is that I get to write books. And then someone on the ABC gives me a show. And I can just talk to creatives about what they do. You know, and someone can pay me to do it. That's the That's the dream. Really, let's be frank Ellison. That is, that's my train. That's what I want to happen. That is so good. I love that anyone listening for the AV? Yeah. Give us by the show. I found the same thing. I, I found that mostly why I started this is I needed to find out other people's opinions on how not necessarily how to do the physical stuff. Because everyone's so different in there are different, you know, requirements or whatever, but how to change my perception about stuff because I was finding I was getting really challenged, being interrupted and that kind of thing, like, you know, having to having to look at things in a different way and needing to for my own sake, because it was I was just going to have to stop creating, because I just was too wound up and too, you know, almost resentful. That sounds horrible. Yes. But yeah, so I've really enjoyed hearing how other people do it how how they think about things. Yes. And how they, how they still meet their needs, but not at the expense of their own mothering. Yeah, so yeah, I've just love it. I think it's the range too, don't you think Allison that like I am? Have you read the divided heart? Oh, I interview? Yes. You have you? Yes, of course you did. You interviewed Rachel. That's how I knew about your podcast. You know, like, that was such a profound book. For me. I got that really early because someone recommended it to me. And then since then, I've read lots of this and and right, who's a writer, her extraordinary book on being a mother and all this, there's heaps, there's heaps and, and often you're drawn to those ones, too. Like I read all of them, for people who aren't parents as well. But I think it's the range of going, well, this person did it like that. And then this person didn't like that. It's so permission giving when you go, okay, I can be away from my children, and do my work that way. Or I can do it amidst the interruptions. And I can write a chapter on my phone while I'm doing, you know, there's no right way to do it. And I think in the end, sometimes I worry about my obsession with reading about other people's process, but then I'm like, no, because the more you read, the more expensive your idea of what it can be is. And yeah, so I'm totally there with you. It's made my practice so much better. And which is why it's so important that you know, and so amazing in such a generous kind of actor that you that you do this podcast, too, I think because it is. It's that talking about the unspoken or which, which, you know, there were there were people. Yeah, there were definitely people who, who let me know, I'll always remember a gorgeous friend, Amy, who messaged me on day three and said you might start crying today. And that's okay. And I have since then, I have always sent that message to people, you know, to because I was like, that was so incredibly helpful, that she told me that, you know, and then and I think that there is this act of and you have to know when to say it because you don't want to burst that gorgeous, pregnant, first time pregnancy bubble either for people but the sharing of stories and the way that women in particular share stories. What a lifeline that is. Oh, that's that's happened. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more and I think the rise of Social media of this showing this perfection this, you know, this beautiful staged photo like we're talking about the Christmas tree, you know? Yeah. Is that really reality? You know? Or if you've got that Christmas tree hidden in a different room where no one can tell you why can't we just be honest with each other and just getting rolled out like don't be afraid to, to share and I think that would help so much not just in, like what we've talked about, but also like the whole mental health thing like actually saying, Yeah, I had a lot of trouble. And now I'm going to use that to help everybody else. Yeah, it's just so powerful. And it's not incredibly ashamed often scared of and embarrassed about, you know, it's laugh and it's reality. And the more we talk about it, the better. No, absolutely. I get a bit precious I think sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And scared, scared. Scared of how scared of what people will think, you know, I can say this as a 40 something year old, but there's no way I would have said this 20 years ago, you know, yeah, like we're talking right back at the beginning about this judgment. Yeah, absolutely. What he has to start thinking like a 40 year old woman. Yes, we actually, oh, that's. So basically, I was gonna ask, what you've got coming up. I've actually got a couple of, I've got some great workshops that I'm teaching in the new year in 2022. And the first one is a kind of a kicking off your creative year. So it's for writers Victoria, I'll send you through the details. But it's a full day online workshop. So people can do it from wherever they are in Australia. And we're looking at it's for emerging, or mid I think it can be for anyone really, but just looking at ways to kind of really kick off the year going, how am I going to make space for my creative work in whatever kind of situation that I'm in that my my work and my family is in? And how I'm going to do that. So that is that's really fun. And yeah, people I mean, people can find I try and keep up to date on socials, I'm having a bit we're having our three weeks at the beach offline, which I'm just so excited and thrilled about. So January's always off. But yeah, podcasts new podcast season, coming up with the first time and then lots of lots of little events in the New Year as well. So and then the book eventually. You know what, now that now that I've spoken to you, I'm gonna read your books. And a big thing for me because I love that well, and you know, if you're if you are into audiobooks, I can highly recommend although I haven't listened to it myself, because it's just too weird and hard to do. But the gorgeous Claudia Karvan read the mother fault for Audible. Yeah, or audio book or whatever. And I got to talk to her quite a bit. She's really into it. And everyone who I know who's read it that way, has loved it. So that might be a way that works for you. That is definitely something I can do. Thank good. That's okay. That's it's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you. So, so lovely speaking to you, Allison. I feel like that's like been a debrief as well as just a little therapy session. Thank you as Digby, it was lovely to meet you, too. Are you in the middle of your first publishing experience long to get a deal for already been there and want to know how others experienced it? Maybe you're a writer, a reader, a lover of Australian fiction, this podcast is for you. Here's the deal. Adams first book, the helpline is hitting shelves in Australia very soon. And she has got some questions. Like how do I plan a launch party? What else should I expect? In the Green Room? If I get invited to a festival? Will I get invited to a festival? What if I get invited to a festival and no one shows up? Like my day job? Is my life gonna change? What does it feel like to have a bad review? Do I need to get my nails done to match my book cover? Should I be on Twitter more? And even though my first book skylarking came out a couple of years ago, and I can give Katherine some advice already has lots of our experiences that are vastly different. So we thought we'd cast the net a little wider. And ask some other Australian writers about that first time. I just ticked that box novel and started this incredible adventure. It's great to have a deadline to work towards you know, there's this tendency to obviously procrastinate or not even procrastinate. Just keep reworking and reworking and never really deciding that it's finished never pressing them and I distinctly remember the moment I got the idea for what With become the first novel, that moment is vivid in my mind full of those things had a choice, I write the story down or I go completely mad that first shortlisting that you get is just this amazing validation. And for some reason, it tends to happen when you're at your lowest point. And it always just kind of buoys you up, and allows you to keep going. There's three parts to being an artist of any sort, there's talent, there's hard work, and the third one ever forgets as luck, good luck, the lucky chance comes and you're not ready for your lucky chance, you're not gonna make it either. In each episode, we'll ask a writer to come clean on all the fields and the logistics of their first time, and will hone in on advice on a particular aspect of the publishing process. I'll also ask Catherine to update us on where she's at with her own adventure into the world of a debut novelist. Whether it's chatting to her editor, getting her social sorted, or speaking to an audience of booksellers, we are taking a bit of a risk here. We want to take you behind the scenes of the hype, and the instant deliciousness of the debut Experience and find out all the lows along with the highs. We're asking our guests to be candid, and to give us the warts and all of how it feels. And we don't know how it's gonna play out. But Katherine, Will her book end up on billboards at the airport? Will she hit the coveted top 10 On release? Will Hollywood come knocking? Or will As one writer attests the experience all be a little anticlimactic? subscribe via iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts and check out our website, the first time podcast.com or connect with us via Twitter and Instagram at the first time pod. And let us know about your first time and the questions you want answered. We look forward to getting into your ears. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Kellie Nobes Australian professional stylist S2 Ep35 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Kellie Nobes, who is a professional stylist and mum of 2 from Mount Gambier , Australia. Kellie knew from a young age that she had a big interest in fashion and dressing up. Through her blog What Kel Wore , and support from her local community, Kellie began to share her love of fashion and share her ethos of self care, not just self image. Her big break came when she was approached to style modern luxury accessories brand Ashlee Lauren’ s New York Fashion Week Runway Show in 2017, dropping everything, including her job, to travel to New York for the event. Since then Kellie has styled multiple wives and girlfriends at the 2018 and 2019 AFL Brownlow Medal and has worked with various celebrity clients on a range of projects. Kellie's services have evolved over time, from wardrobe audits, styling for events and photoshoots, to the recent launch of her wedding & bridal styling & planning service. We chat about self confidence, self care and the identity shift she experienced when she became a mum. ***This episode contains discussion around hyperemesis gravidarum*** Connect with Kellie on her instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kellienobes/ Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Kelly nopes. Kelly is a professional stylist and mum of two from Matt Gambia in South Australia. Kelly knew from a young age that she had a big interest in fashion and dressing up. Through her blog what care wore and support from her local community. Kelly began to share her love of fashion and share her ethos of self care, not just self image. her big break came in 2017 when she was approached to style modern luxury accessories brand, Ashley Lauren, and their New York Fashion Week runway show, dropping everything including her job to travel to New York for the event. Since then, Kelly has styled multiple wives and girlfriends at the 2018 and 2019 AFL Brownlow medal and has worked with various celebrity clients on a range of projects. Kelly Services have evolved over time, from wardrobe audits, styling for events and photoshoots to the recent launch of her new wedding and bridal styling and planning service. Today, we chat about self confidence, self care, and the identity shift she experienced when she became a mom. This episode contains discussion around hyperemesis gravidarum Well, welcome to the podcast today. Kelly, it's a pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on today. Yeah, absolutely. You call yourself a professional stylist? Can you share with us what that sort of means and what that entails? Yeah, sure. So originally, when I started my business five years ago, it was specifically fashion styling. So my correct title is fashion stylist and image consultant. But over the progress of the last I guess Yeah, five years I've sort of branched out into lots of different creative avenues and now doing weddings and bridal stuff as well as business styling and social media stuff for businesses so basically kind of Yeah, anything creative or anything visual so I decided to retweet the name and say professional stylist because I felt like that was a bit more of a sort of umbrella that all the categories fell into rather than just Yes specific fashion styling. So yeah, it's been a bit of a crazy ride but now five years later here we are. So going right back to the beginning, have you always been really interested in clothes and you know, fashion and dressing up and that kind of thing? Yeah, so I guess anyone that has been following my business for a while now probably knows the ins and outs that I was always into clothes and dress ups I had a big Dress Up Box loved Yeah, anything fashion based. And it just kind of progressed from a really a really young age. I shared a photo on Instagram not long ago of me that my mom said to me, she was like who would have thought and it was just yeah, the writing was written on the wall. I was there in my dress ups with the these fake nails on and the the neck lace on and yeah, and that was me, I think when I was like, oh gosh, very young, maybe like three or four. So it started from kind of progressed to be something that I didn't really envision but in saying that too, I was never always the best dressed kid or anything like that. It just kind of stemmed from I guess a passion for creative elements and design and all that sort of thing. And yeah, so but it definitely stemmed from a young age and was always something that I was very, very interested in. Yeah, was there any particular sort of trigger for that? Like, were you surrounded by, you know, with your mom or, you know, other women in your life into that kind of thing? Or was it just coming out of a balloon? Yes, and no, I mean, um, you know, like mom always presented herself quite well and that sort of thing. But I someone asked me that. Yeah. Before it was like when was the kind of key moment that stood out in time and I don't think that there's necessarily one but I do have a really early memory of mum bringing in. It was a black painted box with bright colored flowers on it and it had all her old earrings and dress ups. And pretty much from then on that was that was the main main part of my childhood. So I'd say that it stemmed from that blackbox there wasn't necessarily I guess a key person or individual that kind of standard. It was just Yeah, I don't know, I just sort of started from that. And it just kind of grew and grew and grew. And as I got older, I found that I was getting more enjoyment out of it and started taking I guess a bit more of a an interest in a curious curiosity in the business side of things, too. So yeah, I'd say that was probably the key standout memory that I have was definitely that Black Dress Up Box. That's I guess what what started started the journey. Oh, that's cool did you go on to do some formal study in the in that area? Yeah. So originally, when I was in primary school, I wanted to be a fashion designer towards the end of primary school and early high school. And then total honesty, I realized how hard that was going to be and decided that that was not the avenue that I wanted to take. But I originally really enjoyed the retail side of it. So enjoyed the business and retail, learned a lot about that gained a little bit of experience in that. And when I left high school, I knew that uni was never really for me. But I decided to go and study an Advanced Diploma in Fashion and Retail Management in Adelaide. So still moved away started that study. And when I was there doing that there was also a stylist course. And so that really took my fiancee. And at the time I was working at Marian in a retail store. And they were doing shoots and different bits and pieces and stylists were kind of coming and going and that for me it was really quite fascinating that people get a job going and helping people shopping and photo shoots and all that sort of thing. And it just sounded amazing to me. So I kind of first got the idea there. But around that time I was moving home back to Gambia we had a bit of a rough time, we had some health issues with my mom and we we lost a friend and it was just kind of a Yeah, turbulent sort of period. And so they didn't actually offer that offline. So I kind of just gave up there for a little while came home, still worked in the fashion business side of things. And then a couple years later, I found a online course for Yeah, fashion styling and Image Consulting. So I did it offline through an institute in Sydney. And yeah, progressed from there. Yeah, great. How would you describe your own personal style? Really, I always get. I'm always really interested by this question, because I feel like no matter who asks me, and when asks me it changes. But someone asked me, yeah, probably over 12 months ago now. And to me, there was three words that came to mind and it was feminine, edgy and changing. And for me, I guess changing was the standout because for me, it depends on my mood depends on my personal life, it depends on I guess what I'm doing, who I'm with at the time, especially since becoming a mum, my style has changed completely again. Some of it was obviously depending on what was accessible for breastfeeding depending on, you know, what I was going to be doing with the kids that day depended on what my style was like. So I'd say it sort of changes sometimes it's bold and eclectic. And then other times it's quite plain and quite basic. And then there's other times where you'll see me down the street and people will wonder how I got into this job or how I do this job. Because if you can see me some of the time, even at home when I've answered the Dometic Gosh, some people must just be like, Whoa, and I think that's yeah, a big part of my job is like, you know, giving women and understanding that you don't have to look your best all the time and it's not about that it's about learning how to when you want to and building some of that self esteem and confidence because I know for me when I when I look good I feel good and that's just how I feel some people are completely different. But I just Yeah, I guess coming into my business too and learning about my personal style and learning how to, I guess dress to that and as well as learn like the the art of actually styling and how different things create different looks. In the illusions of some things in the ratios and drawing the eye to where I want people to be looking and that sort of thing, so it's quite fascinating. There is quite a lot of education and knowledge that goes behind it. But um, yeah, I think it really depends day to day. My, my style, it changes all the time. So that one that's that's a good answer that makes that makes perfect sense. And I'm also wanted to ask, is there any sort of like, well known people like celebrities or public figures style that you really admire, that you think is really awesome. Yeah. So there's a couple of standout ones. I'm not sure how well that well known there'll be to some people but I know like anyone that knows me or follows me knows I'm obsessed with a lady named Sophie Bell who goes by the Instagram Peppa heart. And I just yeah, love her style. Love her vibe, I guess. Yeah, she's definitely someone that I source a lot of inspiration from. There's a couple of other stylists who I really enjoy their style. And that is Elise Greer in Melbourne and Lauren dimenna in Marion. So I think she's now Lauren Willis. She just got married recently. But it's quite fascinating because she was actually one of the stylists when I was working at General Kenton, Marian. And so I knew her from Marian and I remembered her face. I remembered what she was doing. And then years later, I went to Adelaide fashion festival with ash from a last day or Ashley Lauren, who's my sister in law that does obviously all those amazing headpieces and her brand is amazing. And yeah, we went to a live fashion festival and I saw Lauren, and I was like, You know what, I'm gonna go up and tell her that she was actually yeah, like a bit of the reasoning behind why I got into doing what I was doing. And I'm went up to her and yeah, introduce myself. And she remembered me and now we actually yeah, have quite a bit of contact. And yeah, so she's definitely someone that I sought inspiration from and I just think to like Carrie Bickmore I don't know there's something about her. She can just wear anything ever. And she just always looks amazing. So yeah, that'll be that'll that'll be my life and that's cool. Read your work. You mentioned Ashley, Lauren, you've done. You went to New York for her runway in 2017. That's pretty. That's a pretty big highlight. It's not massive. I don't I don't know how I'll probably ever top that. That was just a bucket list item from Yeah, just way back. And so at the time, when Ash got that opportunity, I'd obviously been involved a little bit in her business. And you know, we helped on photo shoots and bits and pieces. But at the time that she got the invite to New York, I was actually managing Smeagol. So a children's stationery store, like completely total opposite genres in every way. But at the time, I was looking to travel and that was you provide, getting the opportunities to do that. And so yeah, I was doing that. And I'd started my styling business on the side and was just kind of getting it up and running and seeing how I felt about it and learning all about it. And yeah, Ash rang me one night when I was working Thursday, late night shopping at Smeagol, which was I think I just got invited to New York Fashion Week. So I was like, well, let's just like definitely kind of knock out those details and find out if it's real, because it's like, Oh, my God. And then yeah, sure me back. She's like, I think it's legit. And so she was like, oh, like you have to come and she's like, well, you quit your job and come with me. I was like, Um, let me think about that. I rang my boss the next day, I was like, I'm sorry about this opportunity has, you know, popped up and even my boss was like, she's like, look, I don't I don't want to see you go. But absolutely, she's like, you would be stupid to turn that down. So I went on packing lunch boxes one night to a few months later going to New York Fashion Week and styling the models there. So I just always believe that yeah, life always has a path for us when we when we need it or Yeah, believe everything happens for a reason. And that was obviously a big a huge starting point in my business to considering I hadn't been up and running for very long. So that kind of Yeah, snowballed into something. Yeah. Even more amazing as well. So yeah, So, yeah. And I mean, I don't expect you to name drop, but you can if you are you with your style some of the WAGs for the AFL Brownlow, which is pretty. Yeah, yeah. I was actually looking at the photos you sent me today. And I also hadn't thought about it. Do you tell the hair and makeup? How you want? Like it's the whole package? Do you describe everything how you want it done? Like, yeah, you do. Like, it's the whole look sort of thing. Yeah. So it isn't the whole look. So I think that's one thing that people think this styling too is that I just pick the garments or the outfit, but I am involved in the whole process. And that's not just with the brand new clients that's with every client, especially if they're doing event styling and stuff like that, at the end of the day, obviously, it comes down to their preference, they're the one that has to wear it, not me, but I definitely put my kind of spin on it or vision and say, This is what I think that we should go with. And they kind of take it from there. And then it's also about, I guess why using with the hair and makeup artists to, to make sure that they're comfortable in showcasing what they want to showcase because it's about them showing their art to so the styling is my part, the designer is there, part three, they've got to be happy with what they're putting out there. Same with hair and makeup, they're not going to do something that they're not comfortable with doing or they don't like because it's their name on it too. So it really is a whole kind of team effort. There are a lot of people involved. But yeah, with the brand loads too. It's it's, again, there's so much that goes into it that people don't see behind the scenes. It's not just go there on the day, and it's an hour to get like this is like months worth of work in the lead up and you know, picking designs and contacting designers and yeah, working out looks and then like yeah, hair and makeup and accessories sort of thing. So for me to obviously don't live in a major city. So I'm doing all of this via email and phone. When I originally started Kelly beams who was my first ever Brownlow client, I actually flew to Brisbane. And she just had a baby. So originally, we were kind of looking for off the rack because fittings and appointments and all that were quite hard to manage. But then in the end, we ended up securing a designer and getting custom in the end, which turned out amazing. But yeah, it's it's just like a whirlwind. And I don't think I'll ever be able to describe that feeling of hearing my name on the red carpet or, like especially with them. Yeah. Julie Neil, on the second year, like Lucky Neil has obviously become quite well known in the year after he actually won, which is, you know, getting the weight in like riding COVID time. And I just had Yeah, a young, a young baby at home and was in the thick of that. And it's just yeah, I guess sometimes I just thought that's one of those moments where I feel like I'm on the outside looking in and I'm like, wow, that's just little me just would have been like yay. Like, that's, that's always something that I've wanted. So I'm really hoping to get back into a bit of that again this year. And now that I'm back sort of Yeah, working in being involved. I'm really hoping that I can secure some of those red carpet moments again, because they are Yeah, so so much fun and yeah, really amazing to be a part of. You're based in Munich, Gambia. So for those who don't know my Gambia is basically halfway between Adelaide and Melbourne. So we're only like, what do we got 30,000 people, not a huge, huge town. So how do you go there? Like you mentioned the, the phone calls in the Skype and stuff like Do you ever feel like it's a drawback being here? Or do you just think no, but this is where my life is. And you just make it work? It really, it really does go both ways. I mean, I won't lie there would definitely be way more opportunities for me in this city with what I do. And you know, I've kind of made my peace with the fact that that that is how it is. On the other hand, I don't think my business would have become anywhere near as successful if I had launched it in the city. I think watching it here. There wasn't a whole heap of competition at the time when I started. There, I guess. Word of mouth in a small town. I was a really big thing too. And I had already known a lot of people, I come from a big family. My partner or my now husband knows a lot of people in his family and through ash and all of her connections and the people that I've met along the way in my network and friends, that in itself was advertising for me. So had I started in the city, I might not necessarily have had that. So I think it's definitely helped my business and is the benefit. And currently to, although there's not as many opportunities as what there are in the city, there are still ample opportunities, because I am here doing it. And again, I still have those networks and those resources. So it can be a little bit challenging, I guess, especially for some of the clients that I have worked with or want to work with the time and the travel. And now with young kids, it makes it a little bit harder to manage some of those things. But yeah, I mean, at the same time, I've just kind of ran with it. And for now, this is this is where I am, and this is where I want to be. And I'm not ruling out of move in the future. Because I believe, you know, when opportunities arise, you got to go to assess, and I am one of those, I say yes. And I figured the rest out later. So I'm not ruling it out. But at the same time, if I was to be here forever, then that's yeah, that's how it is. And I think that's been part of, especially through COVID, and stuff like that to adapting my business to not just be tunnel in what I offer. I can't just offer one thing. It's about learning. What are the things am I good at? What are my strengths? What other things can I offer? I think there's an opening in the market for different things that I'm kind of working on behind the scenes at the moment. So things like that, I think, yeah, it is in my benefit to be in Merritt, Gambia. It just makes it a little bit more work. Yes, sometimes when working with the people from away or, you know, to we have amazing stores here in Mount Gambia with a lot of amazing local businesses. But sometimes, you know, I don't have a Rundle Mall at my back door, or I don't have a Chadstone shopping center. So sorting things for clients can sometimes be a little bit challenging, too. So like I said, there are pros and cons. Either way, it's hard, but at the same time, yeah, I think it has made my business to be what it is today being in Mount Gambia. Yeah. And I think there's a tremendous amount of like, you talked about the word of mouth that community support, I think people here really get behind each other. Like if someone's gonna crack, they really support and share and tell people and social media, all that sort of stuff. It's a really good community. Yes. Yeah. It's great. We are very lucky to have that community. And And as I've said it like 1000 times, and I say, you know, I'm so grateful for the support that the community has shown, but I don't think I'll ever Yeah, ever get over that. Because to take an idea and run with it is nerve racking. And it's like daunting, and you know, it can be quite challenging. But when you get that bit of a support, I think, too, makes you want to support others in the community as well or their businesses because you know what it's like to get that sorry. I think it's yeah, it's great for everyone. Yeah, absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was. So turning over to your family side, you've mentioned your children, just in passing a couple of times. Tell us a little bit more about your kids. Yes. So I have Vance, who will be eight months old this week. And I have Ziggy who is turning three in May. So there's 10 days between their birthdays. So two years apart. My Yeah. Crazy boy. I say crazy boys. It's crazy. Crazy. He is He is my whirlwind and Vince is my little chiller so we'll see if it changes but yeah, it's it's been a roller coaster the last couple of years. It's and it's so true. People say it is the hardest thing that you will ever do, but definitely worth it. There are some days I want to pull my hair out by like breakfast time. And then there are other days where you're just like I'm smashing this I've got to get it down. Pardon. Yes. So but it's great. I love it. And I love being a boy mom and yeah, they they definitely keep me entertained, that's for sure. It's funny when I had I've got two boys and I like when I had my second boy Like everyone knew that will be my last child. I remember my, my pop said to me Oh, sorry, you didn't get your girl and I was like, but it's actually okay because I actually love having boys. I never had a brother. So I was totally new to this whole boy world. But it's so I just love it. It's just I know. And I was the same like 100% like total honesty, I was a little bit disappointed when we found out that the second was going to be another boy, I think just because the pregnancy for me was quite different. And I don't know, we both my husband and I had a strong feeling it was going to be a girl. And we never found out the sex was easy, but I was 100% locked in that it was a boy from the get go. And so yeah, I think this time, we were really 5050 on whether we were going to find out or not. And then we decided to, and then that little bit of disappointment lasted and then like for maybe a day and then the next day I was like this is so how it's meant to be. And I'm like it's so true when people say you just grateful to have a happy, healthy baby. And that's exactly what I was happy to have. And I was yeah, I felt very lucky. And now it's like dance was just always meant to meant to be mine. So I can't imagine life without him now. So I'm so glad it turned out the way that it did. Yeah, that's so sweet. I just got goosebumps when you said that. Because we say the same thing. Sorry. I'm getting emotional. We say the same thing available filler. It's like you just can't you just can't imagine not having him. No, you just, you were meant to be in our family law. 100%. That's I know, unlike even with the you like I say, you know, he's he's my crazy one. But I think they are very different personality wise and like, oh my gosh, I'd love to gamble with anything in this world. But he was a hard newborn. And we I don't think I slept for like, it felt like eternity. He wasn't a great sleeper. Wasn't a great feeder. Very busy, but, you know, like, he's still very affectionate at the same time. And now with events, he seems to have, I was worried us like if I'm gonna do that, on top of having a two year old I don't I don't know how things are gonna go. But now like Vince is you know, he sleeps quite well. And he's he's quite relaxed and quite chilled and just happy to take it all in. So I think Yeah, it's true that you just, you know, you deal with it, what you dealt with, but I think Vance knew that I needed a, I needed a good sleep at this time round. To be mine is delivered, delivered the good. I mean, apart from teething, that's to you better in the work yeah. In terms of your work, then were you able to keep working? I guess three pregnancies and like after you had I know you're sort of starting to get back in but after your head Ziggy where you were getting back into work? How that sort of go for you. Yeah, so when I was pregnant with Ziggy, I was diagnosed with hyperemesis. So that is like extreme nausea and vomiting, like, a lot. So it definitely threw a little bit of a spanner in the works. But I was really lucky at that time. Majority of my work was through ash, I was working with ash. So I was very lucky that you know, the days that it was really bad, I was able to head home or work from home and that sort of thing. And we're still doing my business, but I was mindful not to kind of overexert myself. And yeah, he's just kind of monitor but um, it was really funny, because the week before I went to the brown loads, the first time I actually found out I was pregnant that week with Ziggy and I had severe morning sickness. So I was actually styling the girls and want to get the brown light at the crown. I had five girls to do that year, and I was vomiting like, in their rooms. And so I had kind of blinded on nerves at the start. And then in the end, I had to tell them because I was like, they're gonna be like, What is going on with this chair? Because I had like, I'm really sorry, I'm actually pregnant and like violently ill. So that was a journey in itself. But then yeah, that had had that up until about halfway and then had a really enjoyable pregnancy busy, and then had probably about four or five months off when I had zeggen loved that time. You know, adjusting to motherhood. But for me, I love my kids that I know that they're not just me, I need to have a creative outlet and do a bit of work to make me I guess not lose that sense of self identity that was really important to me. I feel like I'd worked so hard to get to that point, I didn't want to then just, you know, lose it all. And that I just felt like it wasn't really in me to do that. So yeah, got back into a bit of work just part time. And then yeah, if anything, business just started booming, which was amazing, but was a bit of an adjustment after, you know, learning how to go back into the workforce as a mom and learning to do things on no sleep and learning about daycare and babysitters and routines and time management, I think was a big one. And then, yeah, when he was about 18 months old, we decided to start trying again. And yeah, I was like really quite lucky that we can say vets, but unfortunately, with his pregnancy came hyperemesis again, and, like double as intense, like, I was so sick it like, Oh, I get emotional talking about it, because I just don't know how I ever function through that. And I don't know, if people really understood how bad it was like mentally and physically. So I ended up before anyone knew I had to take six weeks off of work, because I was just struggling so bad. And it was at the time that I had just opened a new studio and was working out of that. So it was quite challenging. And that lasted the whole pregnancy. So I ended up having to start my maternity leave a lot earlier. And yeah, it just, I don't know, it was just just threw a massive spanner in the works, I think because physique, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna have it to halfway and then I'm going to be fine. And it's going to be smooth sailing. And then when I kind of got to the halfway, I was like, why am I not feeling better yet? Like, this is not kind of what I what I had signed up for. As always, I had amazing clients who were very understanding and who was so good, but it was a real eye opener to me to take care of myself and and look after myself. And unfortunately, that just meant, yeah, putting everything on hold for for quite some time. So yeah, yeah, it was a bit of a learning experience. But just one of those things. You just got to ride ride the waves. And yeah, I've come out the other side. And maybe that's why I got a really good baby, because I had a really bad pregnancy. Maybe that's how it was. Yeah, you are that after all Yeah. I was reading one of your blogs on your website. When you were talking about that early phase after you you had ZTE. And one of the one of the things I wanted to ask you about you, you said that you were eager to have some time off and enjoy the phase. But you also you'd struggle to be fully detached from it all. So was that on your mind already? When you were pregnant? And going into having the baby we thinking, how's this gonna go for me? I'm used to being so creative. You know? How am I gonna feel? You know, it was and it was, it was really quite interesting. Because obviously, I guess until you're in that situation, and you are pregnant, and you are thinking you don't for me, I hadn't really thought about it. Like when we talked about having a baby and starting a family and all of that. It wasn't really something that I considered at that time. But then definitely as the pregnancy kind of Yeah, progressed, and I was sick, and it was changing my plans that was kind of that eye opener to Oh, that's right, like everything is going to change, you know, and how am I going to manage this? And I think for me, and I know like ash can vouch for this. I really did struggle with the thought of being put on hold again because I felt like I'd had to work so hard to get to that point. And those first couple of years were full of such highlights. You know, things like New York and the brown noise and Adelaide fashion festival and, you know, I went to Melbourne fashion festival and that was amazing. And there was all these things that I felt like was such huge highlights to me and then how thing that bit of I guess, I guess a little bit of worry to that, because I'm not relevant at the time or I'm kind of taking that time off. I didn't want to then lose all the business that I'd worked so hard to create and having to put myself out there again and starting started again. And, yeah, yeah, it was, and it was rebuilding, and it was quite challenging to, I guess, yeah, to switch off, but I know, definitely at the start, I did, because I didn't have a choice, I was literally so focused on that baby. And, you know, dealing with the sleep, and like learning how to mother and all of that, and I was really enjoying it too, like I, you know, was definitely had in the back of my mind, you know, a bit of work here, and there would be amazing, but I was really soaked into enjoying that time, because I know that you just don't get that time back. And especially with finance, that was one thing that I work this time around is that I'm not going to have that time back again. And they grow so fast, and just to enjoy it. So I had a lot longer off with Vance and what I did with Ziggy, I think two because I was much busier with the two than what I was just with the one it relearn how to parent again, but this time to two people at once. And yeah, it was definitely something that I Yeah, started, I guess struggling with throughout the pregnancy. But when I felt ready to and I knew that it was manageable. And I think for me, I kind of went into a bit of a downward spiral there. During the pregnancy, you know, we went into just a bit of, like chaos kind of around that time. And I just thought, you know what, I just, I need something, I need something to take my mind off of just motherhood to make me feel like Nana, I genuinely think, you know, it was the best thing I ever did. And everyone's different. Some people are like, Yep, I need to get back to work for the same reason. Other people are like, No, I need to just give motherhood, my all and that's my focus. And I don't think there's a right or a wrong, I think it's about what, what you feel is best for you and what you think is best for your family and your mental health. And I know I said that to my daughter quite a few times. I'm like, you know, it's not just about the baby, it's about me too. And sometimes when I've said that I almost felt a bit selfish, because I felt like oh, you know, like, I should be giving motherhood, my absolute everything. But I read this thing ages ago, and it's always stuck with me. And it's, we expect women to be mothers. And I can't I can't think how it goes. But it's like we want others to be, you know, mothers without working. But then we want like women to be working, you know, not mothering too. So it's, I'll have to find the quote. And it's something you know, and it was just so no matter what we're going to be judged whether we are working mothers, or whether we're stay at home mothers, either way, we're going to be judged. So I think it's about realizing that you just have to brush those those opinions off and just through Yeah, really what is right for you. And I know, I've received comments from both and some people like oh my god, it's amazing that you're getting back into work, and you're doing this and you're doing doing that. And then I've had the reverse it. Oh, but like do you do you think you should spend some more time at home with the kids and all this too? So I'm like, you know, you just take it with a grain of salt and you just got to really do what? What's right for you? Yeah, absolutely. And I'm gonna Yeah, go back. Go back to I've actually printed out your blog post. Yeah, it's actually very inspiring. It's, it's, we expect women to work like they don't have children and to raise children as if they don't work. And it's like, a nutshell. I loved that. You you basically said, I feared if I wanted to work as soon as soon after having a baby I'd be seen as a bad mom. And then I realized something amazing, I can actually do whatever the hell I want. And it doesn't make me a bad person, let alone a bad mom. So I'm actually going to stick that on my little quote. Well, because that honestly you're right, it doesn't who gives a shit? Anybody else thinks because I can make Greg moments I like but no one is in your shoes. No one is in your home. No one is in your hair. Like yeah, yeah. I was just saying this to Josh, my husband the other day, I was like, you know, isn't it funny? All the pressures that we put on ourselves, especially I think it's first time moms. You know, all these expectations that we have of ourselves and have How things are gonna go. And, you know, like, it's, it's so funny because I think of myself as a cool, calm collected person. I know there's definitely times where I'm a stress head, or you know, I won't, I won't say that I'm always cool, calm and collected. But I think going into the pregnancy and into the having a baby. I felt like I was like that. And in some ways, I think that I was and then But then looking back on it now, especially since having Vance, I'm like, Gosh, I wish I knew with my first what I know with my second and all these things that I was stressing about with Ziggy. But now this time around, I'm like, I don't even have time to stress about that. Because it's when you've got the next one, you're just thinking about completely different things. And I was only we've just started like, a few months ago started solids with the answers and example. And I remember thinking, you know, I had this book was again, it was an A, this amount of grain per day and this amount of protein and this amount of fruit veg. Now I'm like with Vance, I'm like, oh, gosh, I don't know any of that. I'm like, if he's hungry, he's hungry. If he wants to worry once more, and yeah, he's fine. If you look at him, he is massive, like, any of that stuff. So yeah, even I think that's why probably too, he's sleeping a bit better. Because I'm like, rat, you're getting wrapped up and you're getting put down. And just all the things that I second guessed myself is, uh, you know, this time around, and I said, you know, I could have been like that was to get the first time around, and it wouldn't have made me a bad mother. But at the time, I kept thinking on, is this how I'm supposed to be doing it? Or? Yeah, and I think because putting that pressure on myself through that time, I just got to a point of, I can't do this to myself anymore. And this is not me. And this is not who I am. And this is not my personality to be that way. And I think once I kind of through some of those, I guess, expectations of myself out the window, I definitely had a lot more of an enjoyable experience of motherhood. So yeah, it's good advice. Honestly, my story's very similar. I will my first I was just always stressed, always worried was, Is this right? How long should he sleep for? Is he getting enough milk, rara and the same thing? Like Alex was really full on like, didn't sleep, well didn't feed. And then there's seven years between my two kids, because I just couldn't be. Me and my siblings, actually their seven year. Yeah, yeah. So when I went back and got digs, I was like cheese. I hope I get a good kid this time. But I did, thank God, but I'm such a different person now. Like, I'm so much more relaxed. And because I've got that perspective, like you said, things that you were really worried about, you're like now or it's just, you know, things are just got to happen, because there's two of them now, and life's busy. I kind of wish this will sound really silly. But I almost wish I had I had twins, because then I wouldn't have had time to stress over all these little things I would have just doing stuff all the time. And just. And I have a really close, beautiful friend who has twins. And they were born like just before. So their birthdays. I think you're covering coming up soon. So they're like, Yeah, five months ahead of Ziggy. And I just remember thinking like when I was pregnant with him being like, and they already had another child. And I was like, oh my god, twins. And I was just like, Oh my God, and then watching her with hundreds. I was like, Oh, my God, like she just made it look so easy. And was so like, again, I felt like there wasn't it could have been different behind the scenes that she wasn't putting that pressure on herself. And it wasn't this and I learned a lot from her. And she was so helpful with with Ziggy when I was like pregnant with dance, and she was like, Oh, I'll take you for a few hours. And like, you're gonna take my child on top of your twins and your other child like a woman and I have to give her a shout out. And thanks, Candace. And she's just like, oh my god, I remember picking it up one day, and she barked at Him and given Him dinner. And he came around and I was just like, oh my god, like if she can do that, and she's I was like, then what am I even worried about? Like, oh, these things I'm like, I think it was the same. She just didn't have time. And she just did what she did. And honestly, they're the most beautiful little boys and I just say idolize Excellent guys. They just absolutely nailing parenthood. Oh, it's lovely to have those people around you, isn't it and select Edit. And for her to have done that. Like, it's like she knows what mums need. She knows the things that a yes, no, you know, yeah, that's awesome. Something for me. After having like, you know, until until you have a baby, you just don't know. You really don't know, unlike I mean, I've got lots of different friendship groups. In my sort of high school friends, I was only the second or third to sort of have have a baby. And then in other groups, you know, there was only a couple that that sort of had their first baby or young kids and when I had to get I remember messaging some of them and being like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. Like, I just I did not know what was involved and like I get it now I get it. And if anything, I think when my friends had babies, it almost gave me that little bit of confidence to be like okay, now I know that this is what they're going through at the same time and you know, hopefully I can drop a meal off here or there, or I can, you know, just send a text and see how they're going or be that ask questions. And I think, yeah, until you've done it, you just you just don't know, like he would eat. And I just instantly I remember like in the first few weeks after having Ziggy, but thinking of all of the people that I knew that had kids and just like having a newfound respect for them and being like, wow, like, I just yeah, it's just a crazy journey. And no one I don't think no matter what anyone says, either or just will not prepare you for what you're in for, especially in those first, you know, especially with the first time around and in those first few months of learning. And, you know, and dealing with the emotions, I think was a big one like God, like how can you love something so much? And yeah, I felt like I was not an emotional person. And then I think since having kids that's just gone out the window. And now I'm just emotional over everything. I'm not emotional, and I will just cry over something so stupid, and I'm okay. Yeah, cuz it definitely changed have changed that personality trait in me. Oh, sweet. But you're right. It wouldn't. It doesn't matter how much how many people try and prepare you for being a mother or a father. It's like, because your brain doesn't even go there. Like you don't believe them. Like, don't believe them when they say you won't get sleep. Yeah. Okay, that's nice. Like you just don't believe. I remember specifically one night with ZTE. I don't even know at the surface. I slept on the couch for six weeks when I had ZTE. Like I couldn't even sleep in the same room as my husband cuz he was getting up and going to work and like, we were just up all night. So it was trying to make sure that he got rest. And I remember sitting out on the couch one night and just like, I remember patting again, I was so delirious, I think I'd slept like an hour in like, it felt like a week. But it was probably like a day or two. I remember having him and being like, Oh, I remember when people said that I would be tired. But like I didn't understand to the extent of lack Watch out. And I remember that patting him on the back as I was half like micro sleeping like, this isn't tired. This like, this is not even tired. This is like pure exhaustion and like delirium. And until you know, I pick up people tried to warn me when I was like, yeah, no lesson until you're going through it. You just or when people say that you Yeah, that intense love or like imagining that God forbid anything happened to them. And I just remember there's been times where I've worked myself to tears, thinking, oh my gosh, if anything ever happened, like, I hope they know how much I love them. And you know, it's just, it's just a whirlwind, all the emotions, all the feelings, it's incredible. So you touched briefly on they talked about identity. So it's obviously very important to you to see that you're not just and I don't want to say just a man because you never, I'm doing air quotes. But it's yeah, it's important to you to be Kelly to be a wife to be the sister or, you know, a daughter that it's like, mum doesn't consume everything of your being. Yeah, it can't be just just me, I think, I think too, because part of that probably stemmed from, in, in my, I guess, business or my job, working with women and trying to push them to understand the same thing. And even before I had kids, a lot of the clients that I had were young mothers. And so you know, I was understanding but again until I'd been through it myself, I wasn't you know, I didn't understand fully what what they were experiencing what I was trying to teach them about their self worth and self esteem. And a lot of them were coming to me being like well, you know, we just We've just lost our way and we just don't have that confidence that about ourselves and we're just yeah, like a little bit lost and I was I guess for me it was good because I was an outside source. I wasn't you know, a sister or a friend or I was someone completely disconnected coming in and teaching them like you know, you are valuable and you know, it doesn't make you shallow to make you want to sell feel good and why not find this self identity and learn that it doesn't make them a bad person to yet take care of yourself. doing things for yourself or to re learn that for myself and I became a mom, it was like, I've done this for years. And now I'm doing it's like, I need to remember to hang on a minute. Yeah, it's okay for me to do things. And yeah, I think it was a really kind of useful tool, entering motherhood, after learning about all of this stuff. Because it kind of Yeah, gave me the stepping stones to learn for myself on that journey. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, I think what I'm finding talking to moms throughout this project is everyone needs something to fill them up. Like everyone needs something that meets their needs. Because mums are so busy looking after everybody else all day long. And, you know, fixing this and doing that and finding socks and cooking meals, that's fine. But then at the end of the day, there has to be something just for you. You know, it's just Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you shouldn't feel guilty for that. Like, there's no reason to, to feel bad for that, you know? Yeah. And I remember Yeah, I think I said in that blog, I was like, you know, I was worried about, you know, being perceived as a bad mother. And I was like, if anything, it made me a better mother. It made me more patient and tolerant when I was had that bit of something for me, and I knew it made me a better parent to do that, then not to have that. So, yeah, for me, yeah. They've made me feel better within myself, which in turn, are good. I project that onto my kids in feeling good at second. And you know, it is a prime example today. You know, boy jumped on this. And you know, this. I have one of these days, I think the heat has just gotten to everyone I know, it's gotten to me, and we've had a stressful couple of days with everything that's been going on. And the kids haven't been sleeping super amazing. So I think after having such a good run, and then having sleep problems week or so, patient is not where where is I'm like, Ziggy's having meltdowns, university being and I started noticing all of this, and I had yesterday I was like, Alright, I've got to go and do something like for me or do something that I think it's going to make me feel better. And I am working with a brighter moment. And so for me, it created a bit of that stuff. So sometimes, you know, self care isn't just going and taking 20 minutes alone, sometimes it can come in many different forms. It could be surgically, you know, a walk or something like that. But for me, that creative outlet is almost a bit of my self care. Yeah. So I think it's about learning to Yes, what it is that makes you feel better, or what you get enjoyment out of and making time for that, because I'm definitely a candidate that in the last few days, you know, it's a domino effect when I'm stressed it shows in my children. Yeah, absolutely. I can definitely relate to that. It's just, yeah. When Mom's not happy, no one's happy. Exactly. My husband watch for that, too. I see him he's a he's been very patient. Tonight, I ask what sort of, if you've got anything coming up, you want to share about things you're working on? Or? I mean, I'm not asking you to, you know, give away any secret stuff. But have you got anything you wanted to share with the listeners? So when I was introduced, last year, I was so sorry, yeah, last year, in the year before, gosh, it feels like it's almost like a lifetime ago now. I started watching weddings, and like wedding planning and brides. I've worked on a few weddings since then. But I'm actually currently in the process of a complete rebrand and overhaul to focus a lot more on that. So that'll be a complete separate side my business now, which is really exciting. And I'm also currently in the process of creating a new little workspace. So that's been Yeah, a little bit exciting. And it's a slow process, but where we're getting there. So even though Brendan started one of those things, like I have an idea and kind of find time to make that idea work and put the things into that idea can sometimes take a little while. But yeah, definitely. There's a lot of things at the moment. So yeah, if anyone that follows my page or you know, keeps up to date, just stay tuned, because it's all coming about very soon. Well, that's so exciting. That's it So it's like, it's been a real sort of, you know, the, over the last few years like this growth and development for you that you've sort of found things that you love doing. And it's like you've realized there doesn't have to be limits to what you can offer people, like it's just kept building and building. That's so great. learning on the job, you know, I originally started out just making wardrobe audits for people. And as much as I love that my business has progressed a lot more on top of that, and, you know, just I really, it was, was really quite interesting, because last year, I hit, you know, a milestone of how many clients I'd had, and going back through those clients, and actually looking at the different things that I had done in that time. And, you know, I'll always remember those first few clients that I work with, and the things that I'm working on now. It just, yeah, it's it really has evolved into something a lot more than I ever envisioned, and the things that I was doing then to what I'm doing now, you know, working with businesses for their uniforms, and like family shoots, and maternity shoots and stuff like that, what I was doing was event based, as well. And I think it's, you know, even things now that I'm offering digitally that I wasn't able to do beforehand. So it is nice to kind of, I think it keeps exciting to I'm one of those I like a bit of a challenge. And I like you know, having having things happening. So it is really good. There's a lot of, you know, different avenues, you know, in the short term, but again, that doesn't necessarily what I can do in a long term. I'm, you know, it's one of those things, I have all these grand ideas that just believe in the time everything, so I'll be, you know, styling the Oscars or something like that in no time. So stay tuned for that. We'll make sure that we're when we hear your name on the road. We can manifest it out there. Oh, absolutely. That's it. Thanks so much for coming on. Kelly. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you for being a part of it. Thank you for having me. Having a chat. Yeah, it's been lovely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Mary Sotiropolous and Jessie Ann Elliot Australian authors S4 Ep95 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Welcome to Season 4! To begin we have a special episode to mark Mother's Day in Australia, and many other countries including most of Europe, Canada, Brazil, China and Japan. I am thrilled to welcome two creative mothers, Mary Sotiropoulos + Jessie Ann Elliot, Mary grew up in Sydney + moved to Goulburn almost 5 years ago, and she's a mum of a 3 year old daughter. Mary went from being a Full Time teacher to a Writer, Community Builder and Unschooling Guide. Jessie has been a Hunter Valley local (NSW) for most of her life, except for a tiny quarter life crisis year in Scotland at the age of 23. She's a mum of 2 children, a boy and a girl. Jessie went from a Full time Community Planner in Local Government to a Writer, Creator, Photographer, Holistic Counsellor, Meditation Therapist and Women’s Circle Facilitator. and they have collaborated to write the book "The Mum Who Found Her Sparkle." Jessie and Mary started out as online friends, meeting in a membership facilitated by Motherhood Studies Sociologist Dr Sophie Brock. (a previous guest of the podcast) In this group they learnt not only about Matrescence, but how Motherhood is socially constructed and how far removed the act of housework is from actual Mothering. The journeys to becoming Mothers saw both women completely re-evaluate how they viewed the world, There is no mistaking that our culture glorifies being able to ‘do it all’ and that this significantly impacts on the wellbeing and mental health of Mothers and therefore families. The joy is often lost, the things that a women enjoyed pre-motherhood often put on the back burner, as she places others above her. In June 2022 Jessie had the idea to write a children's book aimed at mothers, that would explore the topic of this 'lost sparkle' that a mother can experience when she puts her needs last. The pair went on to create it in the early hours of the morning, late at night, in pockets of time between getting snacks for children or changing nappies. The story follows Te and Oscar as they support their Mum Amber, to find her Sparkle. It is a story of a Mum being just as worthy of her shiny-ness as her kids are, and everyone knowing about it. Within the story there are layers of meaning and they have intentionally designed many opportunities to spark purposeful conversation throughout its' pages. It is their hope that this book inspires not just kids, but parents to prioritise finding that lost Sparkle. The book will be available in the coming months. **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and anxiety and birth trauma** Jessie and Mary - instagram Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their works been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music plate, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never ceded. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. It is such a pleasure to welcome you back to Season Four after a short little break. And as always, on Mother's Day, I like to do a little bit of a special episode usually with more than one guest. So today I'm very excited to welcome bliss and Jessie and Elliot. Mary grew up in Sydney and moved to Goldman almost five years ago. She's a mom of a three year old daughter. She went from being a full time teacher to a writer, community builder, and unschooling guide, Jessie has been a Hunter Valley local for most of her life, except for a tiny quarterlife crisis here in Scotland at the age of 23. She's a mom of two children, a boy and a girl. Jessie went from a full time community planner in local government, to a writer, creator, photographer, holistic counselor, meditation therapist and women's circle facilitator. And they have collaborated to write the book the mum who found her sparkle. Jessie and Mary started out as online friends meeting in a membership facilitated by motherhood study sociologist Dr. Sophy Brock, who's also a previous guest of this podcast. In this group, they learned not only about muttrah essence, that how motherhood is socially constructed, and how far removed the act of housework is from actual mothering. The journeys to becoming mothers saw both women completely reevaluate how they viewed the world. There is no mistaking that our culture glorifies being able to do it all, and that this significantly impacts on the well being and mental health of mothers and therefore families, the joy is often lost, and things that a woman enjoyed pre motherhood are often put on the backburner as she places others needs above her own. In June 2022, Jessie had the idea to write a children's book aimed at mothers that would explore the topic of this last sparkle that a mother can experience when she puts her needs last. The pay went on to create it in the early hours of the morning, late at night, in pockets of time between getting snacks for children, or changing nappies. This story follows tea and Oscar as they support their mum Amber to find her sparkle. It is a story of a mum being just as worthy of his shininess as her kids and everyone knowing about it. Within the story, there are layers of meaning, and they have intentionally designed many opportunities to spark purpose or conversation throughout its pages. Their hope is that this book inspires not just kids, but parents to prioritize finding that lost sparkle, and the book will be available in the coming months. Please be aware this episode contains discussions around postnatal depression and anxiety and birth trauma. I really hope you enjoy today's episode. It was a lot of fun to record. Joining me on this very special Mother's Day episode, I have not one but two creative mothers. I'd love to welcome Jessie and Mary to the podcast. Thank you for coming on ladies, I assume thank you so much for having us. Oh, it's my pleasure. I love it. I love it. I've only ever had one other episode where I had multiple guests at once. So it is lovely to treat for me to more than one face in the in the Zoom chat. It's lovely. Yeah. So tell me briefly before we launch into things whereabouts are you both at the moment? You're Victoria, am I right or not? You tell me I've done know where I'm going. That's all right close. So I am in Hunter Valley, so just outside of Maitland, which is sort of near Newcastle. So yeah, we're in New South Wales, being a hunter local for most of my life, except for a quarter life crisis when I moved to Scotland for a year. But other than that, I've been a hunter local. So yeah, yeah, just leave around that. So you both like you know each other in real life apart from on Instagram. Well, I was a Sydney girl grew up as a city girl, but I live about an hour and a half or two hours out of the main center of Sydney, and about half an hour from Canberra, in regional New South Wales. So we met in an online membership with Dr. Sophie Brock back in 2020. Was it? Yeah, yeah. I was 2020. And then once Jessie had her second in 2021, we sort of connected even more at that point. Because I was fascinated by how she was navigating her second postpartum fourth trimester. Yeah, and apologies. We did say this. My beautiful daughter is very much wanting to make an appearance. Wonderful. Oh, oh, good. So yes, when you said Dr. Sophy broke, I got excited because I've had Sophie on the podcast and she's amazing. I love what she's teaching. She's for those who don't know, Sophie's motherhood studies sociologist based in Australia in Sydney. I think she is. And she runs lots of things online education and even just if you just get on her Instagram, it's incredibly inspiring. And yes, so that's awesome. But yes, go on. Sorry. Lately tried. Oh, no, it's it's very any chance to pump her up? We're totally in support. It was, it was a beautiful meet you so yeah, we met in her online membership, liberate it. And as Mary said, we just sort of started chatting more and more. And after a period of time, you know, doing that Mary went on a road trip and actually came and had dinner at our house. And when we met in person, it was just it was very easy. You know, it was it wasn't it was just kind of like of course we've always known each other in person. It was just yeah, really sort of easy. I think it was a year ago if last year that I've met you in person Yeah. And then all the rest is history breadcrumbs. You lovely ladies have got a book in the works, which is pretty awesome. And it's called the mum who found her sparkle. So who would like to tell us? Maybe maybe start off by sharing how you came up with it or what compelled you to create the children's book? Yeah. Well, I guess going right back to when I became a mum, I planted load for the birth, I knew roughly how to change a nappy. I knew possibly I might need to swaddle the newborn. But I really hadn't prepared myself for that, that transition to mother for matrices properly. And I experienced postnatal depression and anxiety for probably the first you know, eight, nine months sort of severely after my son was born. And in that time, I really found that I I very much dismissed my my feelings and my emotions. And I was just doing a hell of a lot of disassociation. disassociating. And it wasn't until I started to, again sort of focus on my creativity. So my Excel The expression that I started to claw my way out of that. So that had been sort of brewing since 2020, I guess how important it is for us to focus on what brings us joy. And so I guess coming from that, slowly, slowly, slowly building that more into my life, and then leading in to when I fell pregnant with my daughter, my second pregnancy, and approaching the end of it, and I thought, okay, I know much more now about accepting all the help that I can. I know that I need to engage the support of a postpartum doula. I know I need to just let the house go in terms of the task. But I thought, What am I doing to plan for my creativity in this time in my life, because I knew that I needed that to stay really mentally well, and to to really assist in that transition. So I came up with a project to create a project. So I wish I had called it 90 Emotional days. And so each day in during my fourth trimester, I was going to take, you know, a moment or several moments to check in with myself and how I was feeling and, and really sort of it was to help myself as well name what I was feeling because as you know, growing up a good girl like we all do, we, we kind of don't really learn how to really properly honor what we're feeling, or even know what that might even be some of the time. And that creative element as well was either taking, you know, a photo or making a video and just sharing that each and every day, whenever, however, it sort of felt good. And it sort of evolved in to making funny reels doing breastfeeding inspired digital art, taking breastfeeding photos in front of wall art out in the community. And then right at the end of that my daughter, I think she was four months old. And this idea came to me. And originally, it was, I messaged Mary straightaway, originally it was the mum who lost her expression. So that was where the idea originally come from. And then it just blossomed and blossomed. So and evolved and changed as both of us were on the journey of this book together. And I think for both of us we've had we had struggles did we marry just sort of talking about at the start of both of our postpartum journeys and what that transition was actually like? Yeah, I think I'm a little different to Jessie, and that I'm not as organized as her again. She was, I think I was watching on when she was doing the 90 Emotional days and thinking, how is she doing this with a newborn. I mean, it just was so foreign to me, because I My experience was, I mean, I would have definitely been diagnosed with postnatal anxiety. I never actually went to the dopamine hit COVID locked down two weeks after I had my daughter. And it was smack bang, the time she woke up and she was an extremely vocal, unsettled little Baba. And that's kind of just She's three now. And that's, that's just kind of been our thing for three years, which is fine. But I think I just started to see that I needed to pull from different little things that brought me joy, essentially. And I kind of started to grab onto these little things that would bring me joy, because I knew that my mental health was better for it. So Jessie was like one of those people. So when she jumped into my DMs, I'm thinking she's onto something here. And I think you're originally approached me because I did say to her, You do not need me for this. Jessie, you can run with this idea. I'm happy to help assist you through the process. Like, because because I'm a primary school teacher. I've read lots of picture books to so many different kids. I love them. I think they're a beautiful way to access information and create like a depth of meaning. I think they're really underutilized resource. So yeah, and I did a few read alouds just on my Instagram, I was reading with my daughter, like some picture books that I liked. And then so she's sort of jumped into my DMs. Yes, this is great. Loving this idea. I can absolutely see where you're going with it. Or you don't actually I don't think you need me. We've yet she convinced me that it was a joint project project. And I'm incredibly grateful for that because I mean, even from last year, the message has definitely evolved. Just sort of organically as we've been going through the process. That's right, like not forced, it's just sort of it's kind of gained legs and momentum. Because I think I mean, this is what this podcast is all about two, moms are super creative. And I mean, when I would think of what creativity was, or an artist was somebody that was creative, I think, someone that could draw or paint really well. And I'm not those things I could not draw, I need a YouTube video with a step by step instructions on how to draw anything, I'm a stick person didn't progress past you, too. It was also getting my head around the fact that creativity and particularly motherboard can look like a whole bunch of different things, there's not one little narrow box that it fits into. So obviously, the picture will make sense for us both. Yeah, I love that. My my backgrounds in early childhood education, so I can relate to, I love the idea of, of, you know, it's so simple, you just think it's a it's a simple book. And but it can express and convey so much and so many, you know, you can choose what layer of meaning you take from it, you know, depending on who's reading it, and I love that it's a children's book, but someone has to read it to the children, you know, so that person is going to get so much out of it. Was that really deliberate that you wanted to? You wanted to make it like that? That was right from the start? That's how you're planning it? Absolutely. It's sort of yes, it's a picture book. And I guess yes, you could read it and think, oh, you know, he's a bit of glitter, and we're going on adventure with this letter. But for those that want to use it as a tool to have those conversations around, you know, mommy's mom's mental health and even around challenging with the caregiving role, you know, we were really strong on having dad be really involved in care work in the book, and also having extended family around. So it was a way to have that conversation around the importance of you know, mental health as in, you know, reacting to that as urgency urgently as we may have, if someone broke a leg, you know, just just, you know, really elevating that conversation, but also challenging really early some of those stereotypes that we have around around care work and the presence of a village so yes, you could read it at any layer. But it was definitely so intentional for us to sort of just yeah, really just wave some really deep meaning throughout and that is where Mary's experience you know, expertise came in to be able to you had with her experience of reading so many books just yeah, be able to make sure that we were adding so many layers and we were talking the other day, Mary and you were saying you know I even picture this hidden you know, the Self Help for moms like section of like bookshop, because we weren't for for the parent to be sitting there reading it to be getting something from it and you know, in some ways feeling you know, really important and validated that they are important. She, I'm going to refer back to a quote that I found on your Instagram, Jesse, if you don't mind, I'll quote you. Everyone does it. Whatever I say these people freak out. So don't it's not it's not bad. It's really, really good. You said I did not like who I was when I became a mum. I dismissed and invalidated my own needs. I judged myself on expectations placed on me by a society that glorifies supermoms and the myth of the perfect mother. And when I read that, I just went boom like that. I honestly, I, I related to that very much. And I'm sure there are a lot of other people out there that relate to that. And that's that thing. It's our expectations. And like you said, the, like the cultural norms that are set up, that we're not supported. We're not and it frustrates me so much I have this this conversation with just about everyone I have on here. Like we're, we're this, we basically keep life going, if it wasn't for us, if we just said not sorry, end of end of everything, we're not going to, we're not going to keep doing this, there would be no more human race. So why, like we're revered in so many senses. But then when it comes to just with just a man, you know, it's like, you lose your identity, you lose your sense of self, you're like, you know, and that is brought on by the way society sees us, and makes me really, really cross. So yes, I love that quote. Not because you went through it, though, like, I'm not saying I loved it, because we can see our experience in it. And that's something you know, Mary, and I feel so strongly about in that. Yes, the level of intensity right now can be intense, but it's very important for us to challenge this so that our children experience it less, and then their children less, we like that, I won't swear I won't like you can swear, you know, I'm just like, there's no fucking way my daughter will be going through this, my son will not be going, you know, it's just you. You can see what needs to change. And yes, it's frustrating. And you can also go, Well, what can I do in my everyday life to challenge that and change it? So it does get easier and continues to get easier? Yeah, I was gonna bounce off of that. And I think that there's a huge puzzle piece of this book, The mom who found her sparkle for us. We are not. And I mean, I had this dropping as I was driving today. And I thought, I need to say this when I'm on the podcasts later, we are not downplaying the importance of maternal mental health. Like we know, we know the statistics. And I think that's the biggest thing too, Jesse and I are well aware of the statistics, not only because the numbers are there, but because we see it, we talk to mothers, we know we hear the stories, and you would as well doing a podcast like this, it's it, there are themes across the board, what we what we're hoping to achieve with the mom who found her Spark, although is yes, there are sometimes bigger issues at play that need, you know, a lot more support. But if we can sort of start to access that sparkle every day, and just do tiny little things, even in the micro moments that we have, which because that's what we get as moms, right, we're not, we don't have an hour, we don't have an hour to get it all together. Sometimes it's that 35 second little window of time or that five minute little window of time. And our thinking behind Sparkle is it's that way, it's at those small micro moments that you can essentially take back for yourself. And spark that joy and that curiosity that we had before we became moms. I mean, we're human beings out there. We're not just moms like as in we want to be just a mom to as in I love being a mother, but I'm a mom. And yeah, I'm a mom. And and it can be all the things like those things don't just disappear, because suddenly I've got a baby that I'm breastfeeding 24/7 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Where we find our spark was been there from Well, I would argue from when we were babies ourselves. And when we're actually allowed to tap into that feeling of incredible. The way I think of Spark is it's like that feeling of incredible peace you feel when you've discarded all the shows, in your zone, whether it be with your kids there or without like, it doesn't matter. It can be at any point, but you know, that feeling where it's like your soul and heart sort of aligned beautifully. Take that big breath and be like, okay, yes, this is like right here. Like I can almost touch this. And it's trying to just encourage trying to tap into that as much as possible, even in those small pockets of time, so that you get Yeah, and I think we changed the word to sparkle. We were sort of playing around with vocab and thinking about how to make this language accessible. I kid you can imagine Oh, my game was to spark a bit today. Yeah, mom's feeling a little off what could we do to help you get it back? And you know, it can be a conversation that happens in families and like we just see it is a just a really beautiful invitation to create discussion and spark discussion. And that's what this really is for us. Yeah. I think that's really important because I couldn't hark back to the time when I was a child, I had very little understanding or knowledge about my parents goings on. Like, I knew they were my parents. I knew they went to work I needed, they did things, but I didn't know. You know, I knew my dad like sport. And like, what was going on with them? You know, they were very hiding things. I mean, not saying it was they were like, nasty people hiding things. But you know, it was that was what you did in those days, you didn't share things with your kids. And you were sort of protecting them. In a way, I suppose. That's how they saw it. But these days, like, I feel like I share so much with my kids. And sometimes I can think, Oh, should I really be burdening my kids with all this? But then I think, no, it's real life, you know, at some point, they're going to, I don't know, have relationships where it's gonna be good for them to share how they're feeling. And I think that's really great. This opportunity to actually say the words and check in with people and be like, you know, I can see that you're not feeling like your normal self. As you said, use those words, you know, you lost your sparkle, and how can we get it back? I think that's a wonderful thing. And just on a sidenote, like, with my kids at work, I work in a akindi at the moment, and, you know, teaching kids to actually feel their emotions and name their emotions. Yeah. Like you're saying earlier, Jesse about, you know, sometimes you don't even know the name of what you're experiencing. And then to then say, recognizing it in others, and say, what some ways we can help them feel better or, or however, they're feeling, changing that. And I think that's really important that it's not something that's really been done forever, you know, what I mean? I totally agree. And, you know, my, when I grew up, I don't really ever remember, you know, having any kind of conversation around emotions and feelings. And I mean, I think in myself, like, a lot of people, I grew up with a very busy mom, very, very busy mom. And she would be got, she would work full time, my dad would work full time, but he would have I could see had access to a lot more recreation time than she did. She did everything. But yes, still worked full time she would with task to task to task. And that's what I saw growing up. So obviously, that's what I internalized. But even just two or three weeks ago, we were in the car together. And I said to her, Did you do anything for you when we were little? And she said, No, there wasn't any time. And I knew that. That was that's what I witnessed. But I was sort of just wanting to ask, from her perspective, what her sort of memory of it was, and yeah, she didn't. And this is also from a woman she still had her parents, like, you know, they took care of us helped with us and my dad's parents were around so she even had access to a much bigger village then then I do and she struggled. So it's you know, it is you know, that it's things have changed in that we want our kids to we want them to see us as whole humans within reason. But as humans Yeah, and we want to help them get to know themselves. I know when it comes to feelings and emotions, I have absolutely love helping my son because he's for now tune into himself and I and this is so I never thought this would even be a parenting when moment But about six months ago, or might have been a little bit longer. He actually said to me, Mommy, I'm feeling angry. And do you know how proud I was? That he could name that and express that to me? I just thought I just won today and you know, then we actually had the ability to do some things together that helped him you know, move that emotion but yeah, that's it's a really new new thing really, in the in the scheme of sort of generations, generational parenting and stuff like that. Yeah, absolutely. I think it was a meme or something the other day sort of along the lines of now I know why my mom just wanted to sit in a bedroom alone in the dark. And I just love to hate all I want and I think back to this whole self care that we're sold, like, get the massage and your nails done. I'm like, I don't want to sit in a hairdresser. That doesn't bring me joy. I like short, someone else. That's not where I'm finding my sparkle. Let me lie down below on preferably maybe a bit of music. Stuff that suits me just fine. Because that's how my nervous system feels calm. Yeah. Yeah, we're told even Mother's Day is coming up. And I'm thinking to myself to Hobby, be happy if you just take out my beautiful toddler and it takes all gets rid of all that energy and I just sit on the couch. And yeah, absolutely nothing. You know, I don't want a fancy lunch, I don't want to be taken out. And again, I think get the sparkle side of things. Some Mama's will find it, doing those things, which is beautiful. I say power to you by tapping into what actually like how can you access your own how what's gonna make you feel better? It's not anybody else's story. And that's, that's what we love. We get moms jumping in our DMS, like, this is how I found my sparkle today. And they'll send us a little story or a video or a picture. And I said to Jesse, we just, we just pulled this idea out of thin air. And no idea yet, but it was just this little idea. And we've seen it and now we have people having conversations with us about it because it's important last, yes. Brilliant. You know, it was something what you said Mary just made me giggle because on an episode of Grayson, Frankie, they were doing a flashback to racist races Mother's Day, you know, 30 years before or something and she was away at a hotel for the weekend. And they were like, you were away for Mother's Day? And she said, Yeah, well, it's Mother's Day, not Children's Day. Legally, but it's funny, because as you said, you know, what brings each person sparkle could be very different. But that also could change, you know, day to day, minute to minute as well. But something we love to doing didn't we marry? Oh my goodness, sparkle Tober was just the most fun we have ever had. In the month formally called October. Last year, we we renamed it to sparkle Tober. Because we just wanted to, you know, just to continue that conversation that we've started having with you know, our friends and community that we're all growing on Instagram. So we sort of just invited people to share images or videos of them. Just really just doing things that made them you know, brought them sparkle. And Mary did some fabulous dancing. It was wonderful. Dancer hearts, you can take the dancer out. Not choreographed. Okay, I'd like to point this out. Freelance dancer. Yeah, I don't want to be told what to do. I just need space space on that dance floor. And that's wonderful, because we had people sharing, you know, things they were doing with their kids or just by themselves. And it was just this it was so much fun. Just yeah, to have these conversations with friends and family and just to see them so ugly up about it. So yeah, we'll definitely do that again. It was just wonderful. In your DMS Oh, great. You're a VIP, you'll be the next sparkle. Tober for sure. Thank you. Well, I'll be sure to share it with my community and get them involved. And on that note on Mother's Day, I'll be going to the races with that score. Is it is Mother's Day, not a joke when when it was Mother's Day, I distinctly remember asking her once Well, when's Children's Day? Why don't we get a day and she said to me every day is Children's Day. Now I understand time like Ha I know you like but that was interesting what you said before Jesse because that my mother was very similar. She was always busy always doing and would do it herself. We didn't have quite you know, the village that like she might she moved from Melbourne left her family over there but we had neighbors we had my my dad's parents, but I just remember always doing something unless she was sitting down with a cup of tea. You know, but Yeah, same thing i i had come in before I how I asked her but it was a similar thing. It was like I knew dad went out and played footy and he played cricket and they were his his interests. But mum didn't have anything of her own. That was just what she Yeah, yeah. And yeah, and like, I don't I just think I couldn't survive like that. I could survive. because it's not that I, I very firmly want my children to know who I am. I want my grandchildren to know who I am. And not in a context of service like whilst I am incredibly nurturing and caring and you know, all that's a very high value for me, I yes feel very strongly that they, they also need to see me as, as the whole human that I am. And just being in their life is sort of just is one part. It's a very important part, but it's just one part of who I am. Yeah, I love that. I'm gonna take that quote, but you're gonna hear that because that is that it's in a nutshell that's literally it. Like, I feel the same that my boys like I'm I'm very visual with what I like I leave the house to go sing and perform. I know I'm in my studio doing things. And it's like, this is me like like you said, Mary you don't your your passions and the things that you love and your abilities and your gifts. They don't just disappear just because you have. So yeah, I think it's very important, yeah. The saddest thing for me was how long it actually took me to acknowledge them, because all I wanted to ever be was a mom. And I thought, okay, No, Mom. Life goals achieved great, too. And that's now my role. I am secondary to my daughter, she's the most important thing. And that's what I focus on. And obviously, that's just a recipe for disaster. Like it's not going to work. It's not sustainable. And especially I had a daughter, who was for two years of her life, she was awake, constantly, she would wake up, just I would think I had five minutes and not it just wasn't going to happen. Every creak of a floorboard, she would pee. And the more I was pouring into the mothering side, the worse I was feeling, it's just inevitable. I guess that that happens if you're taking no time for yourself. But when we talk about things about what makes a good man, that's what it was. for me. I sacrificed every need every one every everything for my kids. And now that I'm unraveling all this stuff, and pulling back all the layers, I realize how incredibly damaging that is. And that's not something I want to pass to my daughter, why would I want her to think her importance on a priority list is, you know, way down the bottom. That's not That's not a lesson I want to teach. So then it became a, it became a focus to say, Okay, well, no, I am taking that time, I am taking that 10 minutes, I am taking that half an hour and I'm not going to feel incredibly guilty about it every single time I do it, you know, I'm allowed to have a shower in peace. I'm out, but I was I felt so guilty just to jump in the shower, because I knew she would be crying. But I need to show up. I mean, a basic human need. And I'm myself of that. It's, it's just horrible. And I think that and just the conditioning around it all. My mom was the same as yours. You know, same thing. It was limited hobbies. I don't even really know what they were now. Now. She's retired and kind of a bit lost of like, what am I doing for myself? I'm sort of encouraging her now. In her 60s, like Mum, you know, I'm writing this book about like, it could really benefit. Because I do I love her and I want her to see that side. And I think she I think she does and she slowly undoing stories of the 60s, you know, I don't want to be my voice start living. But that is so that's it's a really good point too. It's like it's it's not just for moms who are mothering, actively mothering roles now, is for anyone who's been a mom, or still a mom, you know what I mean? It's like that generation, it doesn't matter how old you are. That's such a good point. It seems like they like you get might get to a certain point and they sort of release I know what my sister and I worry now, probably early 20s, late teens, early 20s. And it's just it, it was like all of a sudden, right? My time and you know, she was you know, hanging out with friends a lot more and going out and doing all of these things and but then, you know, reflecting on that, that obviously that That hurts my heart that she probably wanted to be doing those things, you know, the whole time and then for all of the reasons that we've talked about she she didn't and you know, like it's I don't watch it didn't want that for her. And I've said to her so many times, you deserved more than that. You deserve to be able to do what brought you joy. And I don't know. I don't really know how she feels about hearing that from you know, like, yeah, like, Oh, what do you know? Um, but yeah, you know, like, it's she. We all deserve. We all deserve it. Yeah, that is that is so true you're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. Mary, do you mind if I ask? You talked about sort of unraveling that, or changing that story for yourself about just needing to be mum, and putting yourself further down the list when you talked about it changing. But was there a sort of a moment or something that triggered you to start to see that in yourself? Oh, you know what, I'm, I've been asked this a few times. And kind of when I reflect, I realized it wasn't one big moment in time. But it was that accumulation of Well, the fact that my nervous system was rattling constantly. And with every cry with every screen with every you know, it was just I felt incredibly triggered. And so I have spoken about this in podcast before, but I experienced like intense anger and rage. I'm sorry, Bubba, Come on, honey. And I didn't know where that rage was coming from. I mean, I've always been like a passionate sort of person. Fiery, I guess it's like the great bloody me you can't get like, we have a bit of warmth and passion when we do things. But I had a temper, I would say, but not that not the level of rage that sort of was coming out of me like it was explosive. Kind of like, what is going on. I'd never experienced it that way before. And then obviously the guilt and the shame pops in. Because you're like I, I'm feeling this way towards the situation of being a mom is the one thing I wanted. And I'm not even appreciating. It's that cycle like that in a talk that, you know, that little person just sitting there talking to me in the back of my mind is horrible, would say horrible things. But it was me doing it to myself, which is the saddest part for me now. So I don't think it was one big moment it was more just recognizing, like, where is this coming from? Why am I having these feelings? I need to pull in some support here, or I need to be looking at things differently. And then it's just a very slow. It's just a very slow one day one hour at a time process. You know, I see Sophie bra. Oh, she's starting a membership. This could be interesting. And that that really was a big catalyst listening to podcasts hear the word Mitra says, Oh, what is that word? I've not heard of this before? You know, and then yeah, it was just that it was just those small, incremental moments that sort of were building and building until I just kind of went no, I this is not my reality. Now I'm not accepting this as my motherhood experience, and I'm not doing it this way anymore. And then just chlorine, chlorine back and I say chlorine, because like, it is a fight you're fighting against, like you're fighting against not only yourself and that inner chatter, but like we talked about before you're fighting against a society that is actively pushing against you and feels incredibly hard. And I guess again, this is why the picture book is just a beautiful combination of this for me, because it is fun still, like, yes, our book is for mums. But the kids are going to enjoy it as well. It's playful. And I think Jessie and I really exude that, like we enjoy that. Like we have fun when I met her in person as like, I've known him my whole life. mucking around, talking laughing like it was it was easy and easy. And yeah, but it's that that like the mom who found this path couldn't have come in 2020 Like it wasn't ready to be here in 2020 we were we were doing our own thing. Like we were battling our own stuff. We were on that journey. We knew each other but not as well then, but we all kind of like unraveling our stuff to eventually kind of joined together in this book. But yeah, it was not something that could have come in earlier. So yeah, it's it's just you just don't get told this before you become a mom, like how much you have to fight against things that you feel sometimes very much like they're set up to just make you fail. You know? You just don't know this. And I mean, I don't know I always think about how we could have done things differently. But when it's your first kid, it's what you're around and what you hear. I wasn't around Dr. Sophie Brockman, I didn't even know she existed. I didn't know people like Jessie existed. I didn't know this podcast would have been a thing like you don't know any of this stuff until you're right in it and have conversations about this a lot. Like how could we, you know, prevention over cure, essentially, like getting earlier? And some people are adamant that no, you just have to be in it to understand, but for me, the teacher salaries, I know, we can be doing better for new moms, because then they're not actively seeking out information at the most vulnerable time in their life. They're not scraping together this web, this support network when they're just sleep deprived, and like a really low point in their life. Like we shouldn't have to be waiting for that. Yeah, but I don't know. I don't know then what the answer is, I guess spark was our little way of doing that. Just like the past is your little way of doing it. It's all part of the bigger puzzle, you know? Yeah, absolutely. That's what I tell myself like, because you feel like you want to get out there and shake the chains. Like just do something on change everything. That's that's not going to happen. So it's like little bits, little bits all joined together to make hopefully the big change. Let's try we can only make change at the table we're at that's like that. That's a nice. Yeah, well, I can't take one mark. Is it Abby Wambach? Lennon, Doyle's partner said she did a beautiful big post might have been six, eight months ago. And it was just essentially about making change at the table that you're at. So you have to remember that one that's really good with it was incredibly powerful article. And it's obviously it's stuck in my mind, because you do you want to just you want to shake the chains. But like, but that can feel so overwhelming. So how can I, you know, take a step back from that. And what can I do? What can I do to to make those changes make those incremental changes? Yeah, I think the journey all moms go on isn't that we kind of like get to that point of yes, we know, there needs to be that big structural change. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it, right? But then you go, but I am one person who is at this intense period of my life, like Jesse was talking about before. And I don't have the capacity to pull down everything and start from scratch, like, do that. But maybe if I choose to go out with my feet on the grass, instead of doing the dishes today, or taking a little bit back, you know, maybe when he gets home, I feel confident enough to say, Hey, I just need half an hour in the room. I'll be back out and ready to go. I just need that time to regroup after a whole day. Perfect. So you take it back a little bit, you know, it's like taking just taking the little pieces back. And that's what I said before it's clawing it back. Feels like that's what you have to do. And again, it I don't agree with this is how it is, but it's the reality of it. So just take those little pockets of time for yourself, you know, because you do matter, we talk we are human beings. I mean, I used to teach this to my kids. A human being You're a beautiful person, we respect each other in this room because we are all human beings. And that's why there's no other reason but that because we're human beings all living on this earth and we can respect each other and like I used to teach it and then I become a mom and I show myself zero respect 00 care. Like it No, it just doesn't work again. It's not a sustainable model. It's yeah absolutely. Interesting thing isn't that, like, I was not using it to my advantage prior to becoming a mom, I was just consuming the content. Oh, yeah. You know, and obviously, what do you see of moms these perfectly color coordinated photos, everything put together, no masks, you know, all of that. And then when I started using social media differently, you made adjusted, you know, I gotta say, you start building this web, and you realize, okay, if mothers can use it in this way, perfect, really like a great tool in the toolbox. But I think and that's what we talked about before before you become a mom Um, you're not you're not looking for these words, you're not looking for these things. Because what do we get told? Have the beautiful nursery get the beautiful cost? Decorate the room? Or what? You know, what beautiful prints do you have on the wall, my daughter never went into the car, I ended up getting my friend who had just had a third baby. And I said take it, I hope it gets used somewhere else. I'm glad I'm happy to pass that on. Because we didn't use it, it became just a piece of decoration in my room. And this is a very real reality for a lot of people not to say like some kids will go in the car. That's fine. Mine just never did. And, yeah, there's so many shoulds being thrown at me like what I should be doing, Oh, I must be a bad mom. Because my daughter cries a lot. My daughter is very vocal, I must be a bad mom, because she's not sleeping. Well, I must be a bad mom. And that's why she's doing these things. And it took me so long to flip that around and go, No, it's got nothing to do, mate. She is who she is. And I am just doing the best I can with the support that I have at the time with the information I have. I'm just doing my best. And yeah, I mean, we know this as well, your kids get sent to you for a very real reason. Like, I do believe this. And I really love that you spoke about having that big gap because my daughter is three. So obviously, you know, people are already having you next. And for me, um, sometimes I sometimes find it really hard to get my head around it because I'm going to be thrown back in that am I going to be able to cope? Like I know, I have a better support network. Now I know I've resourced myself better. But I know. I know what it can be like to it anymore. And I, you know, I consider all of these things. So I find that tricky. So I love that you talked about a gap because that is something I'm seriously thinking about? Like, am I supposed to have a bigger gap? Where do I sit with that? And very much just trying to get rid of the hole what you should be doing? Because there are no rules here. Like, yeah, there are rules that we have to follow can look different for every person. Yeah, and that was something that I like, between having my kids, obviously, seven years ago and past I was a lot older, and experienced a lot more life. But I did start working in childcare. And in that time, and that was, for me, the biggest thing that I learned that every baby is different. And it really doesn't matter what you do. Like, you know, parents would have instructions of you know, feed them to sleep with a bottle, put them in the awake with a dummy, wrap them, don't wrap them, put them on their side, put them on their belly, like the nurse, like cuddle them, make sure they're asleep before you put them all this sort of stuff. And I just opened my eyes to like there really, there's no right or wrong, because that's that was in my head at that point. Like I'm quite a black and white kind of person, like very, like, I don't know, a structure routine. I like predictability. And so having a baby was like the opposite of all that, you know. And I talked myself into that I was gonna have this baby that was gonna be on this schedule, and whatever. And if not, then yeah, now that I know, this child, I've known, you know, for 15 years, he was never going to be on the schedule, like that kid does not do it. So I had this book that I'd written in, when I was sort of thinking about having another one, like, all the things that I would do different and it was like, Don't be hard on yourself. Don't be hard on your baby, you know, like, sit and cuddle them for ages, like in the books that said, No, you can't cuddle them. After so many weeks, they get used to it, and then they will want you all the time. It was ridiculous. Isn't that God, like? And I read? I think back on those times. And I think my god like that. I don't know, if there's been long term damage done to our relationship because of it. You know, we'll never know the stuff that you think God being told not to hold your child in case they might want you. That's life. People want each other, you know, we want connection we want. We want people and yeah, so I had this massive, long list of things that I would do. And it wasn't necessarily all this practical stuff. It was how I would be kinder to myself. And the expectations that I wouldn't put on myself like breastfeeding. I had to breastfeed my first child. And I went through hell, because I had this idea in my head that you had to breastfeed your child exclusively. And society thing you know, and I remember times of just being in tears, because he wouldn't latch properly. And my husband's like, ah, do you think I should go get some formula? And I was like, No, don't you dare get formula I can do this, you know, and I was sending myself insane. And the best thing that ever happened to me was that when my baby second baby was born, he was really tiny really underweight and he was in one of those little hot box things. I don't know what the directories we know what great, that's fine. But you know, they gave him formula to keep him alive to my milk came in. And it was like it was out of my hands, which was wonderful. You know, it was just taken away from me that I had to put this pressure on myself. And I noticed actually Just see if you want to talk about it or not. I'm not sure because I haven't asked yet. But in that quote that I read, there was a next bit about doing it differently the second time. Yeah. Can you share a little bit about that? Yeah, I am. As I sort of said earlier, I, I, my mental health was atrocious after Finley was born. And I remember sort of sitting in my GPS office, and she was wonderful. She was so wonderful. I was sitting there with a coffee with America's coffee. And my mom was sitting next to me, holding Finley bought me in this beautiful GP was going through the questions, you know, checking in on my mental health. And before I could really say, match my mom, because we were leaving with her at the time, because we were renovating to sell. So my partner and I became parents under her roof. We brought family home from the hospital there, like he grew up the first two and a half years of his life there. And yeah, sort of before I could answer much, my mom, you know, really reassuringly that unknown Yeah, but just as fine. You know, there's, there's not a great deal of pressure on her. I'm doing x y Zed. So, obviously, at that point, I was just like, Yeah, I'm fine. But I wasn't fine. I, you know, I'd had a very traumatic birth. And I think because of that, I had this fierce love for this little boy, my little world changer. His name is Scottish. And it means fair warrior. And I think the way he entered the world definitely, definitely reinforced that that was the correct name for him. I had this fierce love for him is protecting the small protected Mama Bear. But I was really struggling to enjoy the day, today, of you know, the changing bombs and things like and I you know, I could follow a structure, but just sort of feeling, you know, fulfilled. It just wasn't sort of there for me at first. And I was very, very disconnected, very, very disconnected. And like I said, I was very, very mentally unwell. And it wasn't. You know, as I said earlier, it wasn't until I started to actually focus on my needs. Again, I remember that particular moment, I was about Finley, who was maybe eight months old. And I said to my mom, can I go to a cafe? And so she had him. And I went to this cafe. I sat down with my laptop, I called ahead of time, I was like, Can I book a table with a PowerPoint? Because I had my videos about 20 years old. So she has to I've got a new one now. The new new laptop. Yeah. But yeah, my way I could not use it without being plugged in. So I had to call him time. Can I please have a table anyway? So booked me in had my name is I was I sat there. And I just wrote, I wrote and wrote and wrote for about two hours. And when I got back in the car, just how just, you know, sparkly, I feel I was absolutely on top of the world that I got to sit and do something that I really enjoyed. And it was, I think I I reviewed a jay Shetty podcast, and it was just, you know, trying to reflect on how it was relevant for my life and, and then just wrote a few other bits and pieces. And it just was just absolutely phenomenal. But I think as well, I did. You know, I did want to sort of come across as someone who had it all together as well, you know, I did it I very much because my mental health isolated myself from thin friends and extended family, I remember, we really didn't get out of the house very much at all. So yeah, fast forward that few years when I'd really started to get to know more about who I was as a mom and what brought me joy. That was when you're leaving into Esther, I really decided I really knew I needed to make sure that I had that creative practice, integrated and that I had spoken to people around me about what that could look like, just to Yeah, to really contribute to making sure I stayed mentally well, you know, regardless of what the birth was like that I was, you know, very sort of maintained that that wellness afterwards and I mean, SS birth was awesome. It was I felt incredibly powerful like after her birth, and I can't downplay how much of that additionally contributed to my mental health. Yeah, just not even remotely the same as the first one. But I think another really important thing was that Mitch and I So we were all we were living in our new house that he actually built, which was wonderful. So our kids get to say, Daddy built this house. So that's so lovely. But we, we let go of the things. So, you know, washing would pile up, but hey, they will clean, it was fine. I didn't need to go away. Maybe the dishwasher didn't go on, you know, toys stayed out, I let go of what we were talking before about, you know, perfectly curated Instagram feed I let go of that. I was like, that's not me. That's not gonna happen. Because we sort of stayed in our bubble a little bit. But we most definitely, we had meals already in the freezer ready to go. And, you know, I, I'd made sure that the only was still out of there, go out doing fun things with family a few days a week. So I just had that time with their star. And yeah, so I, I really intentionally looked at what state what kept me mentally well, and then incorporated that as best I could. But it didn't mean that I didn't have down moments and down days, and that's what I made sure I shared as well on on my Instagram, because I didn't want it to be this highlight reel of Yes, I'm fine all the time. I wanted it to be much more, you know, vulnerable and real. I guess. Just just more real, have that experience that? Yes, we will. We will have some incredible moments, but there will also be some challenging, challenging quotes as well. So yeah, I think those are probably the key things I did differently. But we talk about laughter and being silly. And that is something that it's, it's incredibly important to me to incorporate fun into, you know, anything that that I do and going back to Dr. Sophie Brock, remember what I did. What sort of led me to her is that a friend? Just before her membership, she had a course. And I think it was deliberate. And a lot of yes, in part of liberate was you had to write your motherhood manifesto. And for me, the top thing I wrote and I still have it was around integrating fun and silliness into my day and my parenting. So yeah, that was that's been something, I guess leading into it. I wouldn't have thought about but as Mary said, you know, these little things that continue to happen and snowball. Yeah, so I guess that's in a snapshot, you know, in a really brief way things I might I did a bit differently. No, that's awesome. And I love that, that, that fun, because I feel like you can get bogged down so much in the day to day and the grind and you can actually forget, you know, to be light hearted and enjoy yourself and and and I think that also helps your relationship to with your partner, if you can actually attorney then you're not as grumpy as always, and you can have that, you know, that fun that you would have had before you had the kids? I guess you reminded of that. Yeah, well, we actually the other week, my mom had them both of ours for the full day, a full day, which had not happened outside of you know, having to work. And I said to me it we can like look at each other, and like talk to each other. And it was so it was so funny. We watch movies, we went and had lunch and wine and then we come back and watch more movies. That is awesome. Yeah, so it was just it was wonderful because I mean we can sometimes forget in the busyness and you know the depletion sometimes of it to to nurture those relations off. Absolutely I mean I've I've done it many times so it was lovely to just go oh yes hello Yeah, it's easy to take each other for granted this for sure. Mary I want to come back to something you've said a couple of times and I've got to jump on it now about mom guilt. How do you feel about it now? After you know you shared your experience about not feeling like you could have a shower or and that sort of stuff? What What are your thoughts on it in these days? Oh, entirely, entirely different. So I mean, I still feel it occasionally. Sometimes, I think it's inevitable that we'll feel it to some extent, just the same way, I believe dads would feel guilty about something as well, just the normal sort of human experience of feeling guilt. But in terms of actually being a mom and taking that time for myself, no. So I guess it's twofold. I haven't done a lot of that conditioning around what I'm allowed to do, or whatever, you know, and what will make me feel good. And I've also communicated to hubby very explicitly. And I mean, like, very explicitly, all Mary would have been that person that sort of didn't communicate it properly, and then kind of let it fester in the background, and then went quiet or eventually flew off the handle, and he would have no idea what I was upset about, or what was going on. And so I guess the teaching skills coming up, like very explicit and direct of when you come home sometimes and I'm fed up and I've had a day, I just, I'm going to take half an hour, and I don't, I don't want to feel guilty about it. I don't want to feel bad about it. I just need you to take her and just do what you need to do. And I will repeat when I feel like I will reappear when I'm more than ready. And yeah, no, I don't feel guilty about that at all. Because I'm with my daughter still sort of 24/7 She's not in any type of care. Again, as you can hear she's back again with her animals and just wanting to make an appearance in our podcast. Because I am with her all the time. I think it goes back together those little moments that I can get and finding. Like finding things we both enjoy doing, right? Like I love going up to the lookout around my area just because it's peaceful, and I enjoy it. And she loves it. She's kind of plotted around or to the birds. And I think so make it a priority to go. Yeah, well, we can go up to the lookout and we can spend time together there. And I don't need to feel guilty about like, no, everybody's getting their needs met. Right? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I think a lot about how we can create Win Win situations as well. It's not always going to be the case. Of course, I go to many a library, dance class and art class and playing groups and gymnastics today. Actually, I can make it a priority to go. Yeah, I can talk to mums there. And I can still make it an enjoyable experience for me as well. Yeah, no, I don't, I don't feel as guilty. I say no, a lot more. My family lives in Sydney. So sometimes have you will want to go see in laws on like me, I'm actually not going to come today, you take it out, you take home and you're gonna have a great time. And I don't have to feel bad about that. I don't need to be everywhere, all the time. Because my risk matters. I explained it to a friend the other day as I know what it feels like to have a rattling nervous system constantly. So when it's rattling, and once you recognize how to calm that and feel at peace, you can't you can't go back I accept nothing less essentially. So the guilt kind of dissolved with that. Yeah, over time, essentially kind of dissolved, I think on its own. Because I realized I was a better mom, a better wife a better person when I was taking care of those things. So why should I feel guilty about that's a positive? Absolutely. I'm just trying to do a podcast with a three year old would have brought me incredible, like anxiety years ago, but now I find him just roll with the punches. Yeah, that's such my role model marry with that, I mean, so many times with us working together. Because I guess I feel, you know, you've got that still within me and it's dissolving, but you know, that that sort of people pleasing that, you know, validation, like and wanting to move things quickly. Yeah. Mary has been so wonderful at just helping me take a breath. And, you know, not move faster than we need to and just, you know, what, it's fine that doesn't need to be done today. And so, even though you know, I understand some of that, you know, the theory understood it theoretically, about you know, how to come on over system and, and I'm relatively okay with it. I still sometimes need that prompt of, hey, how about we just take a breath and let's just push this back. But I will say on the flip side, Jesse goes fast and I go slower, as in not fast in a bad way. But we've probably we meet beautifully in the middle so I really need her to give me a bit of a kick. It's been so perfectly. It's been very complimentary as an IT because your mirror will be like, Oh, look, how about we consider x y Zed. And that's been a very crucial element to, you know, maybe the story or what we're doing. But if I'd wanted to speed on past that, it wouldn't have been addressed in a way that gave it the most kind of meaning and impact. Yeah, so, yeah, we've needed each other. And I mean, there's been some times to when, you know, we've wanted to consider something. And I said, Oh, no, no, excellent. You know, let's go. And then we have, but we've needed both to be able to bring this project to you to where it is. So yeah, we perfectly complement each other. Really, it sounds amazing. Isn't it funny hate people, you just meet people in your life like that, like just the randomness of everything that's had to happen to get you to get the point where you're at? It's just, I love stuff like that. Yes, absolutely. I mean, yeah, within, like, straightaway, Mary and Mitch, were just, you know, giggling with each other. And because he's very cheeky, and Mary is totally on board that train. So, you know, like, they were bouncing off each other. And our kids were playing wonderfully, but because we have similar similar parenting values, like we could perfectly support them in whatever they were feeling in any moment. So it was, it was easy for that reason, as well, which is sometimes half the battle with Yeah, that's the how to search for it. parenting styles are afflicting it can be tricky. You know, like everyone's doing the best they can. So yes, I absolutely acknowledge that. But it was yes, it was very useful. But yes, it was a random series of events. Yeah. No, love it. I just love it. So where are you? At? what point are you at with the book at the moment? Oh, do you want to talk about that America? I'm being doctor at the same time because I was multitasking Mark. I'm a vet. I'm helping some animals here. Do they seem to be a yes. At all? Um, yeah. So basically, we have an illustrator over in the US who is very hard on working on our storyboard. We've sort of finalized that, essentially. And she's got sketches. So it's so interesting getting set the updates, and you realize what she's done a few more pages and the words that we've said, and the description we've given her actually come until it's real. So yeah, so we're still hoping for an end of June release. And I think we're on track with that. But also open to the fact that, you know, if it pushes out to July, we're okay with that as well. But yeah, it's just a lot of back and forth with the illustrator now. So the thing is, I sometimes feel sorry for our Illustrator, because she's incredibly patient, and we throw a lot at her, we really do. Traditionally, you know, if you were to because we're self publishing, if you were to actually get a published, you would send a manuscript, they would essentially choose an illustrator, your book would appear illustrated. But yeah, we have very big ideas of what could be on each page, we just can't actually bring it to life ourselves. So you're trying to get her to kind of understand that has been like a journey. And you know, it's hard when you got something in your head, and you're trying to really explain it, but she's, she's doing beautifully with that. So we're um, yeah, I think I feel like we're on track. She's kind of really pushing along now. Yeah. We're just sort of thinking about what the front cover should be. We're going back and forth. But that's starting to make more sense. And then, yeah, we have, we had run our Kickstarter campaign back in November to December of last year, and raise what we raised $8,000 For our book to be published. So very interesting. You Yeah, so we kind of ran this thinking, oh, yeah, we'll get some support. Like, we know, we've got some people out there that want to see this book come to life. But then we got an incredible amount of support and managed to fund it through that. So yeah, there's people with some pre orders and things like that. And we just kept sort of slowly pushing the message, but Jesse does work as well. I've got Missy with you do it in the pockets of time. Yeah. But we could be doing more maybe. But I don't know. We're just sort of doing it at our own pace, you know, and it's all sort of making sense like Jesse said, like if we had persevered and tried to get this book out like already or even last year or something. I just, it might not have had the depth and the layers to it, as it has an Yeah, so we're just we're just sort of doing our thing. And I'm excited to hold it in my hands is a big part of me that thinks is not real. It's real. It's real. It's happening. I've seen the storyboard and I think, yeah, that's us, like, this is somebody else. We, we are doing this, we just need to hold it first. Yeah. But there's been so many beautiful moments to it. Because Mary and I have spoken so much, it's, we will be so excited to hold it. But we have had so much fun, doing basically every step of the process, you know, from coming up with a manuscript to starting to share online to spark October to putting together a Kickstarter, which is a feat in itself. And then to having that actually be successful. I think we were will be one or two days out from the deadline. And we will basically refresh it. You know, I was at home for the day doing, you know, parenting, but always like refreshing it. And this donation come in, that was the exact amount we needed to kick it over. And I was like, grab the phone call Mary. She said she's looking at going, you must have fun. Anyway, it was just that in itself means. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. And I love that you guys, you're not, you're not pushing it. Like, it's a thing that happens. As a you know, what's the word in conjunction with your life, like it fits into your life? So then hopefully, it doesn't cause you know, extra stress or, you know, because, yeah, we've all got that already. So, you know, it's just something enjoyable. And, you know, yeah, keeps you're gonna cut that out. But oh, no, I say, um, all the time. But yeah, it's a thing that you guys can experience and enjoy and look back on that the process was enjoyable, you know? Yeah. And that, for me, it's always it's very important. I have to, it's not just the outcome that I need to be, you know, in love with, it's the process of getting to that outcome. The act in itself has to bring me joy felt really to be to be worth it. At the other end, so, yeah, because I guess, you know, for me, it's your being able to access our creativity. You know, it is it's a stress relief. And but I think, though, too, it doesn't always owe us anything, you know, in this moment, it's bringing me joy, it doesn't necessarily have to have that tangible, tangible outcome. I don't, it's so interesting to think how many hours we would have spent on it, and I would do it again, I wouldn't get Yeah, my husband actually said that you're saying is how many hours? Do you think you spent? I said, I don't know. I mean, I was doing it with a with a tablet tucked under my arm. You know, I'm a night owl Jesse's an early riser. So I would be sending stuff in a Canva document. She'd get it at 5am and reply and that sort of that we worked it. But yeah, he asked that any any made this joke lots of you know, you can be famous with this book. I said, my intention? Yeah, sorry, guys. I have no intention of being I don't want to be famous. In fact, if I just have one man that reads it and goes, that's a little bit better. And it reminded me that, you know, I do matter now, like I can focus my thoughts on life. Like, I'm winning. And it's so cliche to say it that way, but that genuinely is how we're thinking about it. Like, we're not trying to get anything from it. It's not it's just, it's just an expression wrapped up in a picture book. For others to enjoy. And that's it. It's like a see, like, for me to him. Finley doesn't really care now too much. But one day, I'm sure both of them will know more. And I mean, for me to just be able to, you know, give that to my children. What's legacy? See, you know, so exactly what Mary said, you know, for just even if one mom reads it and resonates with it, and maybe feels empowered to make some changes in her life or ask for what she wants or needs, and then for our children to me, maybe. Yeah, you know, I will not see coming back to what I was saying before my children who know me absolutely, yes. Oh, I love it. I love it. It's so exciting. Good on you girls. I'm really excited for it. Sorry, we have to be best place for people to follow along. And you mentioned about pre orders. Can people pre order or is that was that just on the Kickstarter thing. We'll we've just got to sought that out. So yeah, we're, we're in the process of making sure that people can can do that ahead of time. But we are having the most fun over on our Instagram we marry out at the mom who found her sparkle, so it's just our joint one. We do things on our separate ones and often posted there as well. And we pop up a lot sometimes, although we might disappear for a little while, then we pop up. Again, we this is how we're rolling with it. But yeah, the mummy found a sparkle is where you find everything book related, essentially. Excellent. I'll put a hyperlink in the show notes so people can click along and follow the journey. Oh, that's right. It's so lovely to have you both on today. Thank you so much for having me. And unmuting every. It's, it's been wonderful. That's been great. And all the best with it. I really hope it's it's, I don't know that feeling when you do get it in your hands. It's like this amazing moment for you both, I think. Yeah, wonderful. And I will definitely be getting a copy of myself. So I think adding it to my collection of spoken to people on the podcast is pretty cool. You would have a wonderful collection of things based on the beautiful conversations. You've had lots of lovely books. I'm very, very fortunate actually, this feels like a sort of an off side of like an unexpected side of talking to lots of people is is I have just collected lots of amazing books. Dream actually. So yeah, so we're looking forward to add your book tour at some point in the very near future. Thanks again. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Rachel Power Australian freelance writer, editor and artist S1 Ep04 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Rachel Power is a freelance writer, editor and artist, and a mum of 2 from Melbourne. Rachel’s book “The Divided Heart: Art and Motherhood” , has supported and inspired so many of my previous guests, and I just had to speak to the woman behind the book. We chat about the book, why motherhood absolutely has to change you, the importance of having your sense of experience validated, why mothers are shamed for sharing their struggles and negative experiences, and breaking the patriarchal stereotypes around the way artists create. Rachel podcast Podcast - instagram / website Quotes spoken throughout this episode are taken from Rachel's book 'The Divided Heart - Art and Motherhood' Music used with permission from Alemjo . When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from artists and creative mothers sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mum and continue to make art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. As Susan Ruben Solomon wrote, perhaps the greatest struggle for a woman artist who has or desires children, is the struggle against herself. No amount of money, no amount of structural change can entirely resolve the fundamental dilemma for the artists mother, the seeming incompatibility of her two greatest passions. The effect is a divided heart, a split self, the fear that to succeed at one means to fail at the other. Rachel pow is a freelance writer, editor, and artist. She has contributed to many publications including Mamma mia, the big issue, Kill your darlings and the age. She has worked as a court illustrator for Channel Nine, production editor of arena magazine, and is currently communications manager for the Australian education union Victoria. Rachel is the author of Alison Ray fish, a life for art, the divided heart, art and motherhood and motherhood in creativity. After having Rachel's second book, The divided heart recommended to me from a number of guests on this podcast, I frantically tracked down the book and read it and was blown away. I was intrigued to meet the woman behind the stories that had resonated with myself and so many others. I reached out to Rachel and she was generous enough to give me this time. Rachel is a mother of two. And in this chat we talk not only about her books, but the challenges she faced in making them. The divided heart is a collection of interviews with artistic mothers, including musician Clare Bowditch and actress Rachel Griffith. Rachel's interviewees had such diverse experiences when combining motherhood and art making. And I began by asking Rachel, her thoughts around this, when I was working out those interviews for the book, their work, there was crossover themes for pretty much everyone. But your ability to cope with those things, or their approach to them could all be very different. Yeah, cuz the thing that really stuck out for me about that was that Helen, and then Helens daughter had a completely opposite take on it. Like for Helen, it was just immense, in almost catastrophic, it was just sewing in all consuming for it. And then I felt like your daughter, Alice could sort of take it or leave it like here, or at least that's the impression I got reading it, but she was so relaxed about it. And, you know, it wasn't the the, the intensity, and I just found that fascinating, just in the same family to have such incredible responses. I know, isn't that interesting? I think it's in part. It's in part, generational, definitely. But not entirely. It's definitely also about personality. And it's also about art form. I think different art forms are much easier to do around children than others. And one of the things I also found really interesting was that some people changed art forms as a result, I just do remember that one person changed the kind of art she was doing. So certainly, I remember someone talking to me about how they were a painter, probably traditionally an oil painter, you know, where there's a lot of setup, a lot of cleanup, all of those things, and she just thought I can't, you know, I can't do this. It's toxic. It's, it's not easy to find time and space to set up and clean up anymore. I'm just gonna start finger painting with my kids at the table. And I think that really changed her whole approach to her, the her art form. And so, you know, it's great when you get those stories of where it's actually you know, forced a new kind of creativity the book was written quite a long time ago, and as you would know, I wrote two editions. So, there was an early edition, which I when I started the, the divided heart as the books called, I was a journalist, so I was used to doing interviews and but I was also obviously I become a mother. I was in my A late 20s. And I got pregnant in my final year of art school. So I'd been a journalist from the age of 17. And then I'd gone back to university in my 20s. And I was part time does part time working for TV station, and part time at uni. And so by my final year of uni, I was pregnant with my, with my first child. So it was this United finally got myself to art school was sort of trying to do this thing that I really wanted to do, which was to write and paint, and then had a baby. So I think, for me, it was that shock of how to juggle everything. And I just started trying to work out, you know, where can I find examples of other people who were going through this? Or had been through this? And how did they manage to kind of find a way to negotiate these twin passions of parenting and, and creating art. And for me, at that stage, being a journalist, I suppose what I was used to doing, was researching and interviewing. And so I just started doing that, without really having any thoughts about what it would be, I thought I'd probably write an article. And then increasingly, as I, and I was just seeking out people I liked, you know, it was just a passion project where I could just say, Oh, this is great excuse to talk to these women I admire. And so I set up these interviews, but the interesting thing about it was that it was really interesting, it was really easy to set up the interviews, because pretty much everyone I contacted, was very keen to talk about this topic, and felt that no one else had asked them about it. And it hadn't, they hadn't had a chance to publicly on my own, maybe even privately really delve in to this experience. Which is not to say it was a new experience, obviously, for for women, it's been in, you know, an issue for all time. But I think maybe, you know, we're at a point where women sorry, I know I'm I'm sort of carrying on, what's interesting to me with hindsight, perhaps, is that we'd hit this sort of point where our, our mothers had been the first generation of the second wave feminists. And so we'd been told a lot about what our expectations for our life could be, you know, what that we could have at all, you know, all of those messages that, that we were, we were getting, and the sense of freedom and ambition that we all have, and should have. And then suddenly, we have children and realize how compromised that can be. And that that is an age old problem, and not really an easy problem to solve. So feminism or for you know, no matter how liberated you are, so, the fact is, we we love our children, and we want to be there for them. And our children love us and I desperately attached to us. And therefore finding space and time for something that we want to do for ourselves is incredibly difficult. I'm sort of reminded of some people that, that were in the book that that they were people were forced to do things in different ways. And through that maybe found better ways to do that art. So an example, Jen lash who's who I've interviewed recently that she because she only had 10 or 15 minutes, she became really, really good at getting things done in 10 or 15 minutes, you know, so that sort of perhaps learning better ways more efficient ways for them to do their art. Yeah, that's sort of the theme that I that I found a lot too. Oh, yeah, that was one of the strongest themes. So one of the strongest things, I think, particularly for those who were probably better at seeing the upsides or experiencing the upsides was that sense that they'd spent years kind of faffing about, you know, having 10 cups of coffee, you know, endlessly ruminating and suddenly they had no time and so it allowed them to do away with all of that. No fluff and just get on with the job. That was definitely a theme. And yeah, learning how to be really quick and efficient with the time with the time that they did have use it really effectively. And I'll also I thought what was interesting was pebble found whole new ways of working in that sense. So I interviewed Lisa, Who's In Who's the poet in the book, she, they forgotten, she talked about how she would just go on long walks with her baby in the pram, and she would just write a poem in her head as she walked, and then get home and quickly get it down. And there were lots of stories like that, where people have became a lot less precious about their work, which I think is, you know, that that's a great thing for anyone. And I suppose for me, sort of looking at that bigger picture of the way women work. It just felt it felt kind of gratifying to show up that history of men who have, you know, demanded silence and holed up in their ivory towers and had the, had their wives leave their lunch outside the door. And, you know, all of those things. I know that, you know, I don't want to say that all men are operate have operated this way. But you know, there's a strong, there's a strong, there's a lot of evidence that historically, men were able to work in very kind of intense, concentrated ways that relied on the servitude of others. And it put paid to that it showed me that no art does not require that and that men should not be able to demand that either. You know, really, it's just been a nice excuse. Curious, and if you can work that way, great. But it shouldn't rely on the work of women to allow men to work that way. Because women can show that it doesn't have to be like that. Yeah, absolutely. And a prime example of your, in your book, you talk about breastfeeding, and being writing little notes, and then suddenly, the kicks of the child's legs, kick them off, and then you're sad again, you know, and finding, like writing on a night. So remit trying to remember you got really good at remembering things. And yeah, just taking whatever opportunities you could to get down what you needed to get down. Yeah, and I loved the comment from and I think it was Susan Johnson, who's the writer who said, that she knew she could hold on to eight lines. You know, she knew that that was her maximum, if she could just memorize those eight lines, and she would get them down as soon as she could. But she worked out that that was her, you know, threshold for how much her brain could carry around. So yeah, and I do that too. I just sort of rehearse them and rehearse them and rehearse them till I can find a moment. I mean, I had my children before iPhones, and I think an iPhone would have changed my life. And you know, for all the downsides of technology and iPhones. Firstly, I think audiobooks would have saved me, you know, that would have been if I could have just breastfed and listen to books, and not have my hand kind of wrapping up every time I tried to hold this book for an hour. Or and you know, I mean, I still love writing by hand and taking notes. But if I could have been tapping away on a phone and writing little notes while breastfeed, I'm sure I would have been. So yeah, and I'm sure it's true for songwriting, too. And I know Clare Bowditch said that a lot that she uses, will probably she used to use some kind of little recording device, but now she uses her phone, and would just constantly be recording little snippets of tunes or lyrics that came to her mind. So yeah, just really using whatever you can use to whatever tools and whatever time you've got. Yeah, absolutely. I want to touch on the idea of, of having support. There's a quote, in your book that says to create, once you have children requires the commitment of more than one person. And yeah, if followed up by the Illinois duck wrote, this situation, I found both humbling and infuriating. I can completely relate to that. It's like whatever decision you make as an artist affects somebody else in the family. I think you're right. I mean, that is the most humbling thing, isn't it that suddenly all every all the decisions you would make and all the choices, you know, though pretty much your own up until that point, I mean, there might have affected your partner or your friends in some ways, but they they're not having the kind of profound effect that they can have on a family and on your children. And I guess everyone knows once you have children, if If you do have a partner, and even if you're separated from their partner, you it's an it's endless negotiation. And you know that it can become quite competitive. And I think that's a real danger, you know, who's having the worst time who's getting the most time, you know, who's had the most time out. And I think for, for myself, I didn't have grandparents, I didn't have parents around. And my, because I guess, also, I had my children quite young. So my parents were still working. So they didn't, and they weren't in the state anyway, for a little while my mother in law was, but she she had a lot else going on. So we had no regular support from outside and, and we were quite young, we didn't have well, we still have, we have money to throw around either. You know, babysitting is very expensive. And we were both working. While I wasn't working early on, actually, I and my partner and I, for a while worked part time each and that was great. When we were both working part time. And both looking after the children part time, that felt really ideal, because we both understood the pressures of both sides and both roles. And if if you can live on one part time income for a short time, which we could early on, while we were still renting, so on then I think I you know, that was a great way to live. But I know that that's not an option. And you know, these decisions are really, really difficult. And so for, for a mother. Yeah, it's it's quite a shock, I think, to feel like every thing you want to do with your life now has to be something that's negotiated and, and the implications for everyone around you. And especially your children have to be considered what was interesting, there was a few things that really interesting to me, too, in that is that even those women who did have support and I think, you know, a supportive partner is essential if you have a partner, and they don't support your right to make art, it is almost impossible once you have children or even without them, but particularly want to have children, if your partner is not going to be supportive of your right to keep making art. I don't know how you could you know how either your relationship or your heart could survive. But in terms of the broader support, I think women and their friendships become absolutely essential. And if you can find ways to share the load between you to take turns taking care of each other's children, that kind of thing, I think, becomes really vital. And then I think more broadly, this one quote is always stuck in my mind with artists saris, Tama city. So Sara Tama City is a painter, Melbourne painter, and she has a big family. So she married an Italian man, big family, lots of siblings, lots of grandchildren, and the her parents in law will babysit those children when people have to go to work, but they wouldn't babysit the children so that she could paint because they just didn't think that was legitimate. You know, that's just a mother expecting to have some fun or some time off to do this frivolous thing. We so they, you know, they're not going to look after her children to allow her to do that. And to me, that seemed entirely symbolic of the situation for artists in general, perhaps, but for particular, yeah, that judgment of what society values, I suppose, and you're just messing around doing some painting, that's, you know, that's not that sort of value enough to classify it as, as work in comics. And particularly, I think for a mother, you're that just seems indulgent. I think that's just deemed indulgent, your absolute priority should be looking after your children and, and I think the message is that you shouldn't really want to paint anymore, you shouldn't really want to have to do these things for yourself. And I think historically, I think historically, women wanting to do those things is probably even felt a bit dangerous. You know, because these are women who aren't fitting the norm who aren't willing to give up their lives to other people's needs. You know, you can see that there's a whole history of that being thought felt as very dangerous. And while that may no longer be the case in you know, that quite such a dramatic way. I think we still carry that feeling. Oh, Absolutely, it's like you're still challenging the status quo. I think you're still even the conversation over who's going to do housework, like isn't already agreed in some silent sort of negotiation that you will take over housework. Like, I don't mean the house, I think of marriage counselors everywhere. And just the horrible boredom it must be to be constantly dealing with these conversations, these arguments about the housework. It's so huge. I feel like the housework conversation is one. Yeah, it feels massive to me, because it is amazing that no matter how much how much you've assumed, you've got an equal partnership. It is incredible how housework just seems to fall to the woman over and over and over again. And ah, that is a really gnarly question. Like, I haven't worked through myself. Why that is because I'm aware, it's not only about men's expectations, there's something internal to the something that women internalize that means they take that on. And it is actually really difficult to go up against that instinct in ourselves, as well as societal expectations. And you know, it seems so prosaic to bring that down to housework, but I feel like housework is very symbolic of that bigger picture for women. Helen Garner once talked of the terrific struggle for women striving to fulfill destinies beyond being wives and mothers. It's terribly sad, she said, it's a very sad thing. A woman trying to be an artist and a mother. At the same time. It's a tremendous clash, she trailed off, perhaps aware of having innocently stumbled into one of those quicksand zones, where the implications of what you were saying are so enormous and unwieldly that you risk being swallowed up. Sad was the word she used. It's a terribly sad thing. For women trying to be an artist and mother. At the same time. There's a quote in the book that says you can never be a mother 100% of the time, because you're just an ordinary human being with different aspects to you that are not necessarily to do with the gender. Is it important for you to be more than offset in inverted commas? Just a mum. And that's not even just a mum, because we know, that's not even a correct statement. But I'm look at, yeah, of course, yes, I think the big challenge when, and this isn't just about motherhood, but the big challenge for us in our lives, going when we've got all these other demands is to keep finding our way back to ourselves. And I think that's what artists have always been so good at, you know, art is about finding your way back to yourself in whatever way over and over again. And in doing that, I don't mean that that means you're just self obsessed, or because I think what artists doing fine in finding their way back to themselves, they're finding their way back to everything and everyone, you know, because that is so universal, it's that universal language, and then that's why it's such a connector. And it's the thing that makes us feel connected to, to the world as an end to everything, both internal and, you know, and what makes us what am I trying to say that, you know, it's also what's so important beyond us? And so, yes, at the same time, I think one of the things that I wanted to sort of get it in writing the divided heart is how profound motherhood is, and that it shouldn't just be, I think, we've often got an attitude before having children that, you know, we're just going to hold on to this self, we're going to hold on to this identity, we've got motherhood is not going to change me. You know, I'm just going to, you know, I'm going to have children, but that doesn't mean it's going to change my identity. But of course, I hope you know, I think it'd be pretty impossible to have motherhood, not change your identity and your sense of yourself. Because it's such a dramatic and profound experience. And, you know, particularly for artists who are already, you know, on the whole, deep thinking people who We are interested in identity and interested in, you know, what, what changes us and who we are, then then motherhood actually, to me presents a real opportunity to, you know, this whole parts of myself that I think I just never would have had to have encountered good and bad without becoming a parent. And this would be true for every everyone, every parent, mothers and fathers, but of course, as a mother, it's, it's very dramatic, it's very transformative, because you've actually given birth and, and because of the way that your children need you. That, to me was something I don't think I've thought about before having children was the particular kind of relationship your children have to you, particularly in those early years, that's so intense, and so demanding, you know, that it can sort of threaten to obliterate you, and your sense of self. So, you know, holding on to your identities, beyond that can or who your sense of yourself outside of that will be on that is pretty, pretty difficult. So, you know, I guess what I'm trying to say is something that I felt like, in talking to women artists, most of them, most of them felt like what they really want to was to have that sense of their experience validated, and to feel like it wasn't trivial. And that being a mother is actually really significant, and shouldn't be a theme for art. And if, if you want to make art about it, and, and in whatever way it changes you, which is not always directly about your children, and I'm not suggesting you know, everyone just starts making pictures of their, their kids, it's more you know, you're you're extremely vulnerable as a mother out, you're, and your senses are alive, and all of those things that can be, you know, of great benefit to someone who's created art. I mean, it can be painful to but that's also good for art. So, yeah, I think I think all the women I spoke to really were embracing that, that change to their identity. Going, they didn't mean that they were going around, you know, saying, Oh, what am I trying to say? Because we've got that kind of also that sort of picture of motherhood, don't worry, that gets held up. For us. That's all loving nor caring, no light and sunshine. And, you know, I think the great thing about that is it can talk about how motherhood isn't like that. It's also it's incredibly difficult. It's incredibly painful. And we all need to hear that too. And I think too, there's that, that fine line where society thinks that you're just whinging about your soul? Yes. It's like, well, you want it to be mine? Well, now you've got it. You can't complain? How dare you complain about this, you know, that that's something I find challenging is that it is actually okay to express the feelings and the challenges you have without resenting being a mother. You know, of course, and there's a lot of judgment, I feel associated with that, because as soon as you start to complain, you're judged. You're not you just knocked down. You know, I, it's really strange. I mean, I, I absolutely loved Rachel casks work, book, her life's work, which I know, which is a book about her early experience of motherhood. And I know, she's been absolutely torn apart for that book, mainly by other women, by other mothers, who I think for some reason, feel very threatened by a woman complaining or expressing the challenges of motherhood is really interesting how defensive people can get and I think it's the thing that I used to say, in response to that is, if I didn't love my children so much, this wouldn't be so hard. It's difficult precisely because I love them so much. And because I actually really value my role as a mother and feel like it's an important one, and that I want to be present for my children and that I, you know, and then I feel the risk of mothering taking over really, I always still do feel that But, you know, my, my children could take up 100% of my time if I let them in. And I feel that pressure to, you know, both of my kids have, I've only got two kids, but they've both got quite, they're both quite demanding in their different ways and have, you know, one of my children has quite high level, neat learning needs. And so I, you know, I still feel that incredible guilt of not using time that I could otherwise put towards her learning needs, you know, using that time for reading or writing or whatever I might do. And this is on top of what I mean, I also work full time. So the amount of time I've got for those things on top of my job is limited anyway. So, yeah, I think that's the only response we can make is, you know, this is it's because mothers, because it's because it is such a big and important job for the whole of society, not just for us, you know, we're creating these people that are going to be out there in the world, and who are the next generation. And so it is a very significant role. And if we didn't care about that, and we didn't love our children, it wouldn't be challenging. And we've got every right to talk about how challenging it is. Absolutely. The code, a lot of comments there kind of lead into the concept of mum guilt that possibly women have been around as much when, or at least not hashtagged. When you write in your book. Yeah. How do you feel about that? I mean, I guess we've sort of addressed that a little bit, but how do you feel about that term mum guilt and, and how it impacts upon us? I mean, I think guilt was, in a way, the central theme, I suppose, or one of the central themes. Because time is so limited. You know, you make choice, you've got to make choices about how you use your time and that. Yeah, I think, I suspect, probably there's always been a lot of guilt for mothers, but we've got new, you know, we've got, I guess, with the birth of psychology, we all started becoming very conscious of behaviors and the impact that our behaviors have on other people. And at that point, I suppose mother started getting certain kinds of messages. I mean, I guess, historically, there's all sorts of reasons why politically, there's been a lot of control over women at different points, and what society would like women to do and be, you know, because it's him, there's been different needs at different times, and particularly when there's been kind of baby booms and women have been or when there's been a drop in. They call it today's they say dropping fertility, but it's not dropping fertility, like the birth. In China at the moment where they've now announced they can have three children if they want. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so there's all of a sudden, all this pressure on women to you know, get back into the home and start birthing. And I think when I started writing my book, actually, it was sort of at the height of this weird Mommy Wars, which I just thought was so awful. So is this kind of public debate, and this is the kind of thing that media loves to grip onto and whip up? Is this fight between supposedly, stay at home mums and working mothers, as if any of us are just one of those things I'll eat you know, I mean, unless if I'd say you know, most women really are very open to the fact that some woman loves staying home and that's completely fine and great if you're in a position to do that, and you're supported to do that, and, and that that's something new want to do and, and some women need to and want to work, and that's equally fine. And you know, our children grow up in a family. Every family is different and we can all look the same and we never have and, you know, children are fine. Either way, if they've got parents who are loving and aware of their needs AIDS and, you know, constructively working on helping them become functional people. They're fine, whatever. And they just children have to deal with whatever family they're given. And that's just the way it's always been. But I guess the guilt thing is big, because I think there is a quote from Helen Garner at the very end of my book, and I can't quite remember it, but I thought it was really significant, which is something along the lines of, you know, no amount of political change, or feminist action, can completely resolve the problem of women's internal experience of motherhood and guilt. And it just seems to be so intrinsic to men's experience of mothering that they can just never be everywhere at once. And that feels like what the demand the job demands, sometimes, you're trying to, you're trying to be everything to everyone, and still sort of retained some hold over, you know, your own interests and keep them somewhere on the list. So I don't, yeah, I don't have a very sort of solid answer to that. Except that, in my experience, it just doesn't seem to be something that anyone can easily do away with. And I don't quite know why that is. The reason most successful women I mean, that that was one of the interesting things, even the women, though, the most successful women in my book, so the and by that I don't, actually, by that, I don't mean, the most successful because, you know, lots of women who are making incredible art haven't had public success, but the women who'd had the most public success, didn't feel and were making squillions, you know, so they could absolutely justified in that way. Didn't feel any less guilty. And that was really interesting to me. So Rachel Griffiths, who at that time was doing some la show that, you know, she would have been making big bucks. Her partner was home full time, he was a painter, but he was home full time. They had a nanny, she could throw money at the problem that that's her words whenever she needed to. That did not stop her feeling constantly guilty. And she also mentioned that I thought was really interesting is that she didn't feel that guilty when she went out to work. Like literally just had to go to work. But she also wanted to do these class like acting classes, she still felt like she wanted to help her craft and practice her craft, and that she had a lot of room to get better. And she was doing voice classes. And she felt incredibly guilty whenever she took time out to do that. Because that felt indulgent, in a way that perhaps, you know, the job didn't. So yeah, look, I don't know how. Yeah. So for that one, sorry. I think it's a topic that people will be talking about till the end of time. Yeah. I think so. There's no such thing as dead guilties. They're, like, really interesting. And that's why I'm I keep coming back to this idea that there is something different because, you know, that was the other question I got constantly, as you can imagine, when I when I first put these editions out, and I was doing lots of festivals and radio, and blah, blah, blah, I would constantly get that question. Why haven't you included men? Why haven't you included fathers? You know, there are lots of artists fathers out there doing it tough as well. And I don't doubt that my answer to that was like write your own book, I'd love to read that book. You know, if men feel so strongly about this, then one of these artists fathers should write that book because I think it would be really interesting to hear about how, how men experiencing their this role. And it you know that especially because the times are changing, and perhaps a lot of male at us are the ones home with children, if their partners are in the the more conventional workforce. So I'm still waiting for that book. But I think the one of the reasons that book hasn't happened is because clearly the experience for women is different and arguably more acute. And I don't think men do on the whole experience. That guilt, that sense of pressure, that sense of feeling like they're meant to be in a million places at one It's yeah. And, and I think that's partly because women don't just take on? Well, I think it's because women do take on, by and large, the physical load of family life, but also, by and large, the emotional load of family life. And I think that probably is just something intrinsic about, you know, overall women's makeup. I mean, I, I'm not saying that men don't care, of course they do. And a lot of men, and a lot they, you know, there are a lot of single fathers out there who've had to really take this on. But I think that emotional load is by and large, carried by women, and usually that includes the kind of care they have to have for their partners as well as their children. And then also, I think women's friendships take up a lot of time, because women tend to be in a caring role for a lot of people in their lives, not just their immediate family. You know, they've got important loyalties to their friends, to their parents, you know, and so on that often also take up a hell of a lot of time. The writer Anna Maria de la Sol said, it's assumed that if you're serious about being an artist, you don't have small children. You make a choice early in your career, that if you're a woman, and you're going to be an artist, that she can't have children, because if you have children, then you can't be an artist. I wanted to ask you actually, I saw in your bio online that you did a book about Alison raffish. And I'm interested to know, because this is, I think, was it published back in early 2000s. Is that right? Yeah. So it wasn't a uni thesis. Right. So you wouldn't have been anywhere in this headspace when you did that book about Alison? No, because it was very interesting, because I read that she had a child, a 13 year old child, and left to go off to England to pursue a life of art when she was 33. Left, her child left her husband and wife she went yeah. And I just thought, Gosh, it would have been good to speak to her. I know. Imagine, I interviewed her daughter. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I guess I've always been interested in women artists. And I've always been interested in. I mean, I suppose I grew up probably enthralled by male artists. And it took me a long time to realize that, that women's art had been really underrecognized. And I want to started sort of thinking about that. I really started looking at Australian women artists and how many amazing women artists there were, who we'd never heard of. And so actually, my, my dad is really interested in Australian women artists too. And he, he actually collects art, you know, he goes to auctions and finds these, you know, unheard of artists in Job lots and that kind of thing. And he started collecting these small paintings by lots of women artists, actually, but one of them was Alison Ray fish. And so he started just doing a bit of research, and then we started researching her together. And I was still at uni. And I was I've never, I've never gone on to do any sort of further study because, as I said, by the time I finished my undergraduate degree, I was I was pregnant, so so it didn't have a chance to do a thesis, which is a shame because it actually would have been really good pieces. So in a way, I just sort of wrote my own thesis. While at uni, and I had a lovely I had a lovely art history lecturer, lecturer at uni called Ken vac, who was very encouraging. And I just did this in my sort of spare time. And so I yeah, I as you say, I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't aware of the of the seriousness of that. But I guess what I became aware of is that all women then to be taken seriously as an artist as an Australian. You pretty much had to make it in the UK. So people tend to go to the UK, you know, get hung at the sell on Um, you know, get some exhibitions there, get some recognition there, and then come back if they came back. I mean, a lot never came back. But but you know, if they could make it in the UK, then they could be recognized in Australia. Very few artists have managed to make a name for themselves purely within Australia in that time. And we're talking early 1900s. And Alison Ray fish was sort of working in the 20s 30s and 40s. And so I suppose I suppose she is an example of a woman who put her art first and decided that art was more important to her than family. And, yeah, kind of unbelievably, I guess. And not in the sense that I suppose it was also a time where I think women had to make a choice, though, the choice felt Stark, you couldn't live both lives. I mean, I know some women did. Of course, there were women artists who had children. But maybe for many, it felt that you either had to choose to become a wife and mother or you could be an artist, but you couldn't easily be both. And I think I obviously felt important enough to her that she felt like she had to make this choice. And maybe she decided that once her daughter was 13. And at boarding school, was old enough to, to live without her. And she took off to the UK. Yeah, for a very, very long time. And not only that, yeah, left her husband and, and took up with another man, a fellow artist, a fellow Australian artists didn't never went back, or never went back to Australia, but never went back to her husband. So yeah, it's funny, isn't it that this didn't have as much significance for me at that, in terms of the the ongoing interest I would have, as I realized at the time, and now I can see the kind of interesting link. Huh, it's yeah, it's almost like you had to experience motherhood yourself. To get in that, that space. You can't, you can't get a really good take on it by observing it from outside. What was it like? I think it took my daughter, what I've read online, of what her daughter said, but yeah, what was that? Like? Yeah, her daughter is Peggy. She there was a sense that she she was pretty closed about it, I would say so she, she was really proud of her mother. She was really proud of her mother's work. And she says she had that admiration for her mother. And I think her relationship with her mother in adulthood was actually quite okay. But I could really sense the hurt and the pain. But I guess she had that sort of stiff upper lip, and wasn't really fully admitting to, to that by the time I interviewed her, which was pretty late in her life. So she probably had a lot of time to, you know, find a way to feel resolved about it. So when when I spoke to her, she was actually pretty sympathetic and understanding about the position that her mother was in. Yeah, surprisingly, so. Yeah, that's very. But yeah, I don't even know what the words though. It's quite incredible. Do you think that Alison felt like the era she was living in there was this expectation that you just got married and had children and that was it so she just had to do it? And it wasn't too, that she was stuck in that, that she just sort of went, Oh, God, now I've got a she almost like she put part of herself aside for a little while until like you said her daughter was 13. And she felt like she could probably live without her. And then she went Riley, my life is gonna start again. Now I'm picking up where I left off basically, and, and obviously went yeah, exactly. I think that. Yeah, there was an expectation. The man she married was quite a successful businessman. So I guess she probably the security of that was probably appealing, because I don't think she came. Well, you know, she came from a very interesting educated family. But you know, no, one woman could easily support herself at that time. And so yeah, I think absolutely she she married because that was the the expectation and probably for that security. I think by all accounts, he was a very devoted father. So that probably helped her leave. But um, yeah, I think that's right. She the, the urgency or the need to make art the absolute center of her life. I think that probably was always there. And then by the time she felt she could make the break she Yeah, I think she, she was one of those people that wanted and needed to paint all day every day. And I think that's what she did. Was just so strong for it that nothing else came close. It was like she just stood to paint. Yeah, yeah. One thing I wanted to mention, there was something you touched on in your book about? You said, Why didn't anyone tell me it would be like this. It has to do with the brutal fact of time prior to having a baby, I had no real concept of time. And I just wanted to say how much I relate to that, is that I thought to myself, What did I actually do with my time before I had children? Like, I just thought, I must have wasted a lot of time. Like, I know, gosh, I know. I mean, it is so weird. That feeling of before and after in terms of your relationship with time, it because now I still feel like I've, you know, those tiny windows that you've got to you feel like there are a million things competing for that, you know, like creativity, I don't know, paying bills, exercise, you know, seeing catching up with a friend. I don't know meditating. If you meditate. I just not to mention how, you know, you could, yeah, the demands are so big. And then you feel like you've got all these little windows. And if, as an artist, you would, you would know if you don't respond to those moments and shut everything. That time can just be eaten up in a flash before you even thought about it. I mean, I, I remember, I would sort of start walking towards my desk thinking, Yes, I'm going to write I'm going to write, and then I would find myself picking up the washing basket and out in the laundry. And then I think, hold on, how did I get here. But it wasn't I'm making my way to the desk. It's like this. I thought I'm not good at that at all. I mean, increasingly, I felt like, I get why I was the one who wrote that book. Because I'm really bad at this. And I needed other people to tell me, you know, if you want to make art, you are going to have to stay so strong. To shadow all the other demands out, you have to. And the other thing, I think that the message that I felt came through really strongly was that nothing else and no one else is going to give you that permission, you are going to have to give yourself that permission to create art. You know, that's not going to come on a platter, probably everyone else is going to be quite happy if you give it away, actually, I mean, not not the people who love the work that you make, but you know, in to your kids, and maybe even your partner, or maybe even your family would be quite relieved, if you could, because it's a struggle, and it creates a lot of angst. And so yeah, you've you've I mean, I don't know, do you feel like that? Do you feel like you've got to stay really strong in that in that need and that sort of determination to create space for it? Absolutely. Because if you don't, I feel like you lose a part of who you are. Yeah, I really do. Yeah. And like you said, you're the only person that can give yourself permission and thus the divided heart like it's, it's the perfect analogy. It's you either do something that might seem like you're neglecting something else, but if you don't do that thing, then you're neglecting yourself. So it's just this. Yeah, yeah. And also I think actually neglecting yourself, you might not realize it early on. But as time goes on, if you do neglect yourself for too long, particularly with something like this, I mean for everyone, it's different. You know? What, what amounts to neglecting themselves, but in terms of art, which I think is so intrinsic to people, for people who need to make art, it's, it's actually really dangerous to neglect that part of yourself, it becomes increasingly dangerous, because then you can actually become quite hollow. And yeah, I think if we, if we allow ourselves to just merely become functional, without addressing all those other very important emotional and creative needs that we have, we are not going to be a good role model for our children. Because our children need to see people around them who do the things that they love to do, and dedicate themselves to the things that they feel are important. And that also I think that they, they see that art is real, you know, that art is meaningful, and that you can have a life of art and it's not. It's not trivial, and it's not indulgent. It's, it's important. So, yeah, I think you've got to keep that in mind, too. You know, kids don't want maybe they do, maybe they'd love, you know, vacuous automaton looking after them. I think, actually, you know, much more important to have real relationships within families, real people, you know, that kids see, get a chance to see the full person that their parents are that we allow them to see, you know, different ways of living and being. So, yeah, I think that's, that's something everyone's got to remember, not only for themselves, that it's spiritually essential to maintain those things, so that you don't become miserable and resentful, because the resentment is a big thing and resentment is toxic. So, but also, yeah, for for our children to have that. That picture of what's possible. Do you find your children now as they're growing up? Did they see that I see what you you're doing in your career and your art? And they? Is it important for you that they recognize, I guess, the importance of what you're doing and contributing to the world? Well, I mean, I can't speak for myself very well, because I haven't, you know, I mean, I do keep writing all the time, but I haven't. I mean, I've actually found it incredibly difficult to maintain my own writing. While I've been raising children and, and working. I also think that when you work in a conventional job, that's also a challenge, it's really challenging to move, why I find it challenging to move between those two modes, because that's the other difficulty with that art requires a lot of kind of quiet music and space. And it actually is a kind of it is a way of being as much as it is a practice. And I hope, actually, funnily enough, having children I think, hasn't been as challenging for me as time has gone on, as working has been to maintaining that way of being. Because there's so many, there's so many lovely things about having children, too, that I think, fit quite beautifully with a creative life. But work is challenging. And work is related because I work because I have to help support my family in a way that I might not have had to if I had not chosen to have children, I might have been able to work less and make more time for it. But I do my my daughter is a big reader. Now and which is great, because as I said she's had to really overcome some massive learning difficulties. And because of that, I think, because we worked so hard on her reading, it's made her a reader, which is and so she really loves talking about books, and she really loves talking about writing, and she's constantly encouraging me now to have a child that says you've got to write you should write you should write more. You know, he's actually really sweet and I really value that my son who's just obsessed with footy is totally oblivious. You All right. So yeah, I think yeah, I, I feel really lucky though that I think I feel like I've got a real relationship with my kids, they understand who I am. They know, I've got complex needs, and they, they're very, you know, I feel like they seen me as much as anyone ever sees them. Mom is a, you know, real person, they see me as a real person. I love that, because I have been quite open about, you know, my without, without directly sort of burdening them with with it, I have been, at times quite open about my frustrations and, you know, my desires to be more creative. And so, you know, I don't think there's any harm in harm in that. I don't sort of want to I don't want to be hanging out for retirement though. My my children is 16 and 19. Now, and so I'm feeling much closer to having that time where it's amazing how you think 16 and 19. You know, you think, Oh, well, the youth should be completely free. Now. Maybe some people would be but no. Like, getting my son through year 12 was like one of the most hellish years I've ever had, maybe particularly because it was in lockdown. So getting a child through year 12, while you're basically at home, doing remote learning is something I don't ever want to have to do again. But But I do feel like I'm getting closer to not so much just time and space, but my mind being my own, and not having to be as full of every everyone else's needs as it used to have to be. So you know, there's liberation ahead. Like, yeah, more creative space and time. I mean, I've sort of written, I've written a novel in draft form, in in the most ridiculous bits and pieces over the most ridiculous number of years. It's embarrassing. But I'm hoping that, you know, at some point, it will take shape. Hmm, fantastic. Because I was actually going to ask you, if you've got sort of, obviously, you would have projects you're working on. But is there is there something that is close to being shared with the world? I think probably it's a few years off yet, but I have finally, you know, have inched out, I've inched ahead. The funny thing, too, I've found is that, I think probably because I've struggled so much to have time, I'll often start something new. And then I'll get into it. And then I'll look back at something I wrote 10 years ago, 10 years ago and go oh my god, it's actually this novel. I'd be writing the same novel for 15 years. Yeah, it's funny how the themes come back, and back and back. And actually, weirdly, no matter how much I tried to get away from it, the novel that I've been working up is absolutely about women and art. And it just seems to be this preoccupation. And so that is what I'm weirdly writing about. And I'm really hoping that in you know, I'll get enough time in the next few years to actually pull it all together and have it makes sense enough to be something that could be Yeah, published. We'll see Fingers crossed. Oh, I wish you luck.

Lena George US author S3 Ep79 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Lena George, an author from Baltimore USA and mom of one son. Lena has been creative her whole life, growing up in Pennsylvania she played guitar, violin and flute, as a youngster she would dictate books and stories for her mom to write and Lena would illustrate them. When she was 14 she started a Zine and published that for a while, and when In college studying visual arts Lena wrote a live journal blog. She moved to Baltimore in 2008. Lena was diagnosed with ADHD as a teenager, She began a blog in 2014 and from this released her fiction work in 2019 under her own name Jaclyn Paul around this topic called Order from Chaos - The Everyday Grind of Staying Organised with Adult ADHD . Her writing about ADHD has appeared in ADDResources , ADHD Roller Coaster with Gina Pera and Houston Family Magazine . Lena's debut non fiction novel She's Not Home will be released in April this year, It explores the relationship between a mother and her daughter. shared grief and coming of age. She started writing the book in 2009, before she had a child, and put it away for a long time. When Lena came back to it, she wrote in significantly more of the mother's perspective, after becoming a mother herself. The book is available for pre order now here Lena's website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website Fair Play - Eve Rodsky This episode contains discussions around ADHD and road accident fatalities. If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I, Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy love to enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creatives about the joys and issues they've encountered. Trying to be a mum and continue to create. You hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how they works, being influenced by mother, mom guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the basic place, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Allison dotnet slash podcast, the blog, the traditional islands of the land and water, which his podcast is recorded on has been abandoned in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. My guest this week is George Lincoln is an author from Baltimore. And a mom of one son. Lena has been creative her whole life. Growing up in Pennsylvania. She played guitar, violin and flute. As a youngster she would dictate books and stories for him to write, and Lena would illustrate them. When she was 14 she started a zine and published that for a while. When in college while studying visual arts. Lena wrote a Live Journal blog. She moved to Baltimore in 2008 Lena was diagnosed with ADHD as a teenager, she began a blog in 2014 and from base released her fiction in 2019. Under her own name, Jacqueline Lena George is in pain for nonfiction book is called the everyday grind of staying organized with adult ADHD, providing a sense of add resources, ADHD roller coaster, genius hero and Houston family medicine. Lane his debut nonfiction, she's not fine will be released in April this year. It explores the relationship between a mother and her daughter shared grief and coming of age. Lena started writing the book in 2009, before she had her son, and she put it away for a long time. When Lena came back to it, she wrote in significantly more of the mother's perspective after becoming a mother herself. The book is available for pre order now. Links are in the show. This episode contains discussion around ADHD, and Brode accident fatalities. I hope you enjoy today's chat. Thanks again for tuning in. Hi, Lena, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's such a pleasure to welcome you. Yeah, thank you for inviting me. I know. This is I'm excited. Well, it's my pleasure. So we're about to you based in America. So I'm in Baltimore. That's I mean, I've learned after moving here, that's the Mid Atlantic region. So just I'm originally from Pennsylvania, and associated more with the Northeast that way, but yeah, kind of in the middle of the right smack in the middle of the East Coast. Yeah, right. What state is that in? Maryland? Ah, you're the third person I've had on from Maryland. There's something Maryland. Sorry, I gotta say it right. Something going on with it part of the world at the wire. It's pretty cool. That's very funny, because it's not a big state. Yeah, there you go. Because yeah, I'm getting better with my geography. I know which side of the like the east or west of the big cities are on, but I'm getting better with my little other places. Oh, even people who live here are not so good at outside of their region. i It's very funny because when I meet people who are from the Western United States, I, I just I obviously know where the states are, but the size of them is they scale up as you as you go out there. And just sort of what's close to what and and I've been laughed at many times Such a big country. I mean, it's Yeah. It couldn't be blind for not knowing every inch of it. Yeah, it's impractical on many levels. Yeah. So what what brought you to that part of the world? You said you're from Pennsylvania originally? I am. So we came down here. So Pennsylvania and Maryland Shara border. And I live about two and a half, three hours away from most of my extended family. So we're not super far away. My husband got a job down here in 2007. And I was a little bit adrift. So I just came along. And now here we are quite some time later. Yeah. Oh, very good. So you're a writer. And I'm gonna ask you this name, you have a pen name of Lena George, how can we do that? So I just started that pen name for my fiction work. Because I am already a published nonfiction author. And I am somewhat widely known for my niche nonfiction work. And even though I always tell people do, do not order your books on Amazon, go to your local bookstore. The reality of it is, as a writer, you do have to think about the Amazon algorithm. And I created a pen name for my fiction. So I could keep things kind of cleanly delineated that I have to, you know, I'll have two catalogs of work nonfiction under my given name and fiction under my pen name, and there will be audience crossover. But I didn't want to him myself into kind of needing to have the same audience for both. And that's why I went back and forth on it a lot whether I should do the pen name. And eventually I just decided to do that and keep things simple. But yeah, so it's a little weird. I, it's my first book under that name is coming out in the spring. And I'm just starting to try to figure out oh, okay, so when I'm interacting with people in person, like how do I introduce myself, it's very especially locally here in Baltimore, because it is a small town. And I know a lot of people at this point, and they recognize me by my given name, so it gets a little bit more muddled around here then out in the wide world where no one Yeah. Oh, do you? Oh, yeah. It's it's makes sense, doesn't it to do it like that? And just iron out the little details of how you deal with certain people face to face. Yeah. Oh, yeah. How long have you been writing your whole life? Are you doing that as a kid, you're really creative. I think writing is the thing I've done the longest I have had many creative pursuits in my life. But even before I was a great like physically at writing, I, before I went to elementary school, even I remember sitting and I would dictate book your quote unquote, books, and stories to my mom, and she would write them into these construction paper books, and then I would illustrate them. Yeah, so I went to kindergarten having, you know, written some weird one page story about a toy ghost I had, and it escalated from from there. And I went through phases, I really thought my pursuit in life would be music, and then it wasn't and then I went to school for visual art. And that wasn't it either. And then I came back to writing so so you got back into writing. Can you tell us a little bit about the books that you've written? So I have one published book that has been out for a few years and it's called order from chaos. The everyday grind of staying organized with adult ADHD. So I started writing a blog years ago 20 In 2014 And I sort of spun what I had the work I had done there into the book. And now most I feel like a lot of people encounter me now via the book, the book is more popular than the blog ever was. And so Oh, I didn't know you also had a blog. Yeah, that's kind of where it started. But I yeah, that's been ironically, my my most full focus nonfiction work I've done when I was in ninth grade. So yeah, when I was 14, I started a zine. Which is maybe dating, dating myself a little bit. But I published that for a while and then went to college. And then we had Live Journal and I, you know, wrote a Live Journal blog. So I did a lot of like, personal experience writing. For myself, and then pretending it was for other people, too. But then I tried a few like more adult blogs, when I was out of college, and this is the one that stuck and really like it. My work started resonating with people. And that made it easier to stick to because I felt some, you know, accountability there to a community that I had built. And so that's, that's where my nonfiction writing mostly has been. For the past, I guess it's almost nine years now. Yeah. Right. So, obviously, based on your own experiences of having ADHD, so when were you diagnosed with ADHD? Um, well, so I, I guess I figured it out on my own when I was in high school. I, when I was 17, I asked a therapist to, like, do she did some sort of evaluation on the computer. And then she was like, Alright, so what do you want to do with this. And here, if you are a minor, to get a diagnosis and evaluation, it, you have to involve your teachers and your parents. And they have to fill out these questionnaires. And I had kind of hidden all of that away. And so at some point, if you are good enough at hiding your struggles, or if you are in an environment where there's a certain ethos around, like, what kind of struggles are okay? Or, or expected, or like everyone deals with that, or you just have to do this try harder. I just didn't want to involve anybody, because I was terrified of them. Just saying, There's nothing actually wrong with you. You just can't deal with your life like, but that's you. That's not something that we need to fill out a questionnaire about. And it wasn't until I was in my mid 20s, that I kind of hit a rock bottom point and pursued it again. So it was I was like, what the classic late diagnosis? You know. Looking back at my elementary school paperwork, like Yeah, okay, like one of the professionals in the room should have probably noticed this, but I was the gifted student. And I think it just slips by, if you're the gifted student, you then if you have behavioral or social problems, or if schoolwork is extra super hard, it can really mask the true struggle. And it's like, well, you need to learn how to control your behavior or, you know, apply yourself and your schoolwork. And, yeah, yeah, so it's it. That was kind of a long journey. That I guess it started in high school that I like, asked for something. But then it wasn't until I was like, well into homeownership and adulthood that came to a head. Yeah, right. It's almost like like I've had, I work in the early childhood education sector. So I've come across a lot of children with ADHD, and my own son has had some issues as well. So I can relate to what you're saying, from an educators point of view. So almost like they said, that, that you weren't a problem for them. Right. Your behavior was, you know, everything was they didn't have to do anything. You know, if it had been a child that was having issues with behavior or couldn't get their work done, then they would have had to do something, you know what I mean? Like it's, that's a horrible thing to say. They didn't think like that. But yeah, yeah, but it's like if you don't have to try I in school, then it masks a lot because I wasn't failing school because I could coast. And I certainly didn't challenge myself as much as I could have. But because I was very selective about where I was comfortable being challenged, my academics were always okay. And then the behavior stuff was just like, well, we need to address this as a behavior issue. But even I mean, that's 30 years ago, and even now I know, educators who say, Oh, yeah, we can't really do anything, intervention wise, if the academics aren't being affected, which I think is terrible, because I'm like, Oh, I wish that things would have gotten better. Because, I mean, because my son is the same way that his not he's not failing, grades wise, but in terms of his own, like, like mental health and happiness. If I hadn't known what to look for, then his teachers might have been in a position where, like, the academics aren't being affected. So we really can't push this with the parents. And, you know, it's, yeah, it makes me sad, because I'm like, a bunch of kids are still being like, left behind and thinking that they are just a problem. Yeah, and yeah, that's really horrible to hear, isn't it? Hmm. Because there's so many other things in life that are important, other than just having good schoolwork results, you know, like you said, the social Yeah. Yeah. There's more beyond school and work that makes us happy. And, yeah, with ADHD, it's that a lot of the focus is on. Well, how are you doing at work? How you doing at school by the numbers? And, you know, if that doesn't look terrible, then what are you complaining about? And well, okay, but yeah, it does make me sad that like things haven't come a little further than that, since I was, you know, my son's age for sure. So, tell me about this new book you've got coming out in your fiction section. Yeah. Lena, George, how'd you come up with that name, by the way? If you don't, sorry. Sorry, I'm, I have known people who have renamed themselves and adulthood. And I just didn't appreciate how hard it is to come up with a new name for oneself. So my maternal, paternal great grandfather, I guess. He wrote a novel that was never published. He died in 1941. So I absolutely never crossed paths with him. And also, it was not spoken about that he wrote fiction. I think my great grandmother, were very German in that way that she just did not speak about him. Really, I think it is, it was a painful topic. And she had really had to, like, get up by her bootstraps and be a single parent at a time when that was not the norm. And yeah, she did not like sit around and share reminiscing about him. But after my grandmother died in 2020, I was given this box that had this the hovel manuscript in it, and I was like, Oh, that's funny. He played the violin. And now I learned that he's a novelist. This is the person I apparently have the most in common with and I never knew but his first name was George so that's where the the last name is a is a nod to him and then I eventually I was trying to do to family names and it just wasn't working. So I just found I just like okay, well what's like a what's a German first name with a nice ring to it? And I came up with Lena and so that's yeah, Lina George, but it's a kind of an A in honor of For the family that I writers on both sides who like did not share their work. That's interesting, isn't it? Do you think it's like, sort of, of the time that they were just too busy working and having, you know, their life that you couldn't indulge in these other sort of things? I don't know. I don't maybe because my great grandfather, George, he worked in finance. And I, I get the idea that that kept him rather busy. So he didn't probably feel like he had a lot of time to sit around and dilly dally with this. But he also he did share his work with other people for feedback. There's like someone he wrote to who gave him you know, some very critical feedback in a letter, which is really funny to read. But then my grandmother on my mom's side, apparently wrote stories as well. And she would submit them. But then when she got rejection letters, she would just get rid of the stories. And she was like, oh, no, but do you know how many rejections some very, very famous authors got before? They made it? Don't throw it away? Yeah. But yeah, apparently she didn't keep her stories. And it was at the time typewriter. So you threw it out? It was just gone. Yeah. Which, you know, my mom is like, I can't believe she did that. Because she would love to be able to read them. But um, yeah. Hey, guy. I'm glad I asked you that question. The weird, the weird family history. Our. Yeah, but my grandmother. I mean, she wrote stories, but she also was, you know, she had four children. So that's another another person who probably did not have oodles of free time to write stories. And maybe that's what I don't know. I guess we'll never know why she got rid of them. But as you know, is it was it a perfectionistic thing? Or just a? Well, you know, I guess it's a waste of time, then. Yeah, there you go. So your walk is called? She's not home? Can you? I mean, obviously, don't give us any spoilers, because we want everyone to read it. How does what's the GST? So the gist is the so it's told from two perspectives. A mother and a daughter, and the daughter is 17. And it's, the book starts just before her senior homecoming dance in the fall at her high school. And 10 years prior to this, her older sister, her only sibling had died in a car accident on the night of Homecoming. So in the intervening years, her mother sort of transformed from, you know, the kind of the fun parent into this, she just did not address her grief around this and instead just became very controlling of the surviving child because she was terrified of experiencing a loss like this again. And so the fun carefree lifestyle didn't do it. Okay, you know, I need to become a different parent to this child, so that I like, there will never be an opportunity for her to be in a situation where something like this would occur. And part of that is her envisioning of how this accident happened. And the daughter is obviously feeling a bit suffocated by this at this point, and everything kind of comes to a head for them around this homecoming night. And the daughter discovers how things actually transpired for her sister. And she ends up running away from home. And the to the story is her running away and having to deal with this. Even though it's you can understand in the moment, the impulse to run away, it's still like the people left behind. She being a kid and rather impulsive, did not fully comprehend how many people would be deeply affected by this and that it actually is kind of a terrible thing to do, even if it's understandable. So it's, we see her kind of coping with the fallout from her choices. and having to decide like, well, then I thought that a fresh start would be so clean. It's not, but how do I rebuild my life and become a whole person again? And does that in any way include like reestablishing contact with my family? Like, can I do that? Do I have the courage to do that. And then meanwhile, the mom is is left to to reckon with, like, not only losing another child, but losing another child in a way that feels like very much on her. Yeah. Like, after all these years of trying so hard to insulate herself from this trauma recurring is like that. Those efforts have then, like, in a way brought it about the thing that she most feared. And you know, how, how can she actually like heal from that and figure out like, who she is in the world? It's almost like, the mother sort of had a self fulfilling prophecy that she sort of created this. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So is that just complete fiction? Or have you sort of, is your own your own influences? In there since you became a mother? It definitely I don't I don't know if I could have written. I don't know if i. So this story has been around quite a while I wrote the first draft of it in 2009. Before I had a child. Yeah. And I, you know, I shelved it for a long time. And when I came back to it, I actually wrote in significantly more of the mother's perspective. And the issue had always been that she was a little bit two dimensional. And we didn't get to, like meet her early enough in the story, like from her in, in her own words. And once I wrote that, I mean, the book is a lot better now than I think I could have written it when I was younger. But the inspiration for it actually came from a what if line of thought involving my sister, because I have a sister who's significantly younger, and we grew up in a rural area with like, lots of hills and winding roads. And at least when I was a teenager, everybody drove all the time. And looking back on it as an adult, I'm like that was outlandish ly dangerous. How did our parents bear to let us drive around in cars that did not have safety features, like we have now. It just, it's mind boggling. But I you know, I know, several, former, you know, high school classmates who did not see their 21st birthday, who did not see their 18th birthday, you know, because of car accidents. So it's a very present thing. And I just went back to visit my dad recently. And it was the first time that I really thought about, like, what does it mean to grow up, surrounded by like, roadside memorials to people who have died very young. But my inspiration for writing this book in the first place was actually thinking about my sister and how, you know, I had a friend who died when we were 17 in a car accident, and it seemed very chancy to me that I was a good driver for a teenager. I was careful for a teenager. But even so, I mean, it's still a lot of it as fate. And you know, what would have happened if something had happened to me and like, how would my sisters growing up experience have been changed by that? And how would like she as a person be different if my absence had loomed so large? In our family? And yeah, but the family does not resemble my family at all. Yeah, I can relate to what you're saying about these roadside memorials. I live in this I was born in this area, I've always lived here and it's it's a rural slash sort of mean whether they say the way the biggest city and city are putting in quotes because we're not a city. We're a big town, outside of Adelaide, in my State of South Australia, and a lot of kids like there's not a lot to do so the kids go driving, right? And yeah, there's been a lot of accidents over the years use particularly boys, they seem to the boys getting the cars together and to know if they get each other on to take risks or whatever, but Oh, yeah, well, I think if you get the more young boys you get in a group. It's the collective decision making ability goes down. It's Yes, the boys are are. I've warned my he's nine. And I've worn my son about this already. I said, Look, if you're in a group, and it's all young boys, just bad decisions can happen. Be careful. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's a lot of driving. And it's not all sober driving. Yeah, they, I mean, they say that kids aren't getting into as much old fashioned trouble anymore. Because they went to computers to when they fly. Yeah. Which is its own kind of risk factor. You know? Yeah. If I remember growing up, dad would always he was my dad's from this area, too. He's from an even smaller town. And he would like say, don't ever get in the car with anyone don't get in the car with boys like because I think he knew, because they've done it himself. But yeah, there's a real Yeah, sure of it. But you're right. I think yeah, it's definitely it's shifting because yeah, of this online world. They're, they're sitting at home playing fortnight or something instead of being together, but I don't know. Different. Yeah. But ya know, I can definitely relate to that. Yeah. So you're talking about your son, if you've just got the one child? Yeah, it was just just him. Yep. So he's nine. Now. The? Yeah. So you started the first draft before he was born. And then you kept writing? In my face, you know, there's additions. So how we, when it came time to write, were you just like up all night? Or like, early in the morning? Like, how did you physically fit in your time to write. So I'm not so good at that there are people who will get up at five o'clock in the morning, there's on Twitter, I think for a while there was a 5am writers club hashtag that a lot of and a lot of them are parents who get up in for the hour before their kids woke up, they would write. And there I have a author friend who is a real night owl, and always up until you know, midnight or whatever, writing. And I just am not good at that at all. I'm like an after lunch writer. So that definitely became very challenging when I especially when he was much smaller. And now. I mean, he's, sometimes he wants to hang out with me, but like, often not really. He has his own stuff he wants to do. But, you know, yeah, like naptime. I would get a little bit in. And then at the time, my husband had a job, where he was gone for like the whole day, he would leave after breakfast and come home after I went to bed. But then he would like build up extra Lake comp hours at work and have to take some time off eventually. So my dad's family has this little beach bungalow, and I would go and just hang out there for a few days and just, you know, write a lot and make a lot of progress. And then that makes it easier to do the like naptime segments. But yeah, I'm still that way. I'm still an after lunch writer. That's like when my brain does it best. But it did. Like when he was smaller, it made it a little bit challenging. And I don't know if there had been more than one of him. I might have had to I might have had to learn how to write earlier late. If I want to get it done. Yeah. So were you after he was born? Like in those early stages, we were you able to write them? Like did you find that that was important for you to still have something for yourself? Or was it just like, not even on your radar? I was I think even from the beginning I was thinking, okay, when am I going to phase it back in before he was born? So I quit my job like a couple months before he was born to finish the book that I was working on and you know, get do things for myself because I knew that that was going to be more difficult, but I also remember saying to someone, yeah, I'm thinking I'll take Get a couple of weeks totally off. And then, you know, I'll like get get back into it. And now I tell people, if they're expecting their first I'm like, Alright, so this is what I thought was gonna happen. And it is so absurd, I feel embarrassed even saying it now, don't expect that of yourself at all, like the first three months are like, just don't even, it's, it'll just be a black hole in your memory. And then the first year actually is like really hard. And then it starts to get a little easier. But it's so the first year was that was a tricky negotiation. Because and I was I was kind of, like full time, parent, but I was still trying to, like wedge the writing work in. And it sometimes was not successful. And it's just, as soon as I guess, when my son was two, he started going to preschool two days a week. And then three, he went three days a week, and now he's in school five days a week. And I can have a much more like, adult schedule. But ya know, but it was hard. Because I was home, I wasn't making money off of my writing, but I was still doing it. And so the the really like full time stay at home parents in my circle, would always have stuff going on, like, Oh, we're going to the storytime today. You know, there'd be something on the agenda every single day. And I just really could not manage that. Because I wouldn't have had any time to like, do work on my stuff. Yep. And so I kind of felt bad a little bit and, you know, caught between two worlds because I wasn't like, I didn't fit in with the working parents and I did not fit in necessarily the like, full time. stay at home parents. Yeah, and I still don't but that's all right. All right, differently prepared. Yeah, exactly. But the at the time when he was in the first and second years of his life, it was kind of a weird landscape. Because I yeah, I felt kind of alone in that. No Man's Land. of you know, I wasn't Yeah, I wasn't beholden to clients or an employer. But I was still trying to, like, keep momentum on my own projects, because I felt like I needed to do them. And so I just like, No, I can't, I can't go to a different storytime every day. I can't just drop everything and go to the aquarium. And know if my kid would have wanted that but. You're listening to the art of being a mum was my mum, Alison Newman. You mentioned there about the writing. And at that point, not making money from it? Was that something that sort of was a bit of an internal conflict for you at that stage? Yeah, I, I, I definitely grew up with and still kind of have to do battle with in my head the idea that if, if you're going to demand time and space for something that you're doing like that, the money kind of legitimizes it. And, you know, my book has been pretty successful. And I've tried to be careful with the way I think about that, because it's like, well, no, but it's not. It's not worthwhile because it it made me a certain level of income. Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, it's worthwhile because it it had an impact on people's lives. And it's important and I thought it was necessary for me personally to do. But it's yeah, it has been challenging. And I think it's over the years to I think my husband and I have under like had much more of an understanding than we had at the beginning about why it is important for me to do my work. And, and I've also tried not to put pressure on myself. have to, like make money with it because that's when I start get tempted to, oh, maybe I should like get some extra like freelance work or this that and like pad my income a little bit. But that's taking time away from the sort of career projects that I shouldn't be working on. And there's no reason that I need to be making, like, X number of dollars every month, it just is not even before. Before kids, my husband was complaining about my job. And he said, you know, you don't have to work like, we could survive if you didn't work. So if you want to just like if the job is bothering you that much, like just just quit and like work on your writing, and do that, and see where that takes you. And I was like, No, I need to have a job. What are you talking about? Looking back, I'm like, why? Like I was being underpaid at that job. And I should have just quit and like, pursued my writing earlier. I didn't feel like I had to, I didn't feel like I had the freedom to do that until I became a parent. And that was kind of my reason, like, oh, well, I don't have to have a job. Because, you know, economically, it makes sense for me not to have a job. While you know, the baby is small, and then I can like also work on my writing that I wanted to do. And oh, but if I would have done it sooner, like that kind of thing. But ya know, it is it's tricky. And it's, yeah, we don't live a lavish lifestyle. So I have as I have a lot of leeway with my work, and I don't have a huge amount of pressure to hit, like an income target. And so, you know, whatever I can pay myself is good. But I think the pressure is like all from me. It's not from Yeah, so I feel like that was my music because I don't earn very much at all for my music, and it cost me a lot to make something that I really, really love doing. I wouldn't be able to not do it. So it's like I don't know, my husband's a financial advisor. So it makes life a bit tricky. Sometimes he reminds me What's ironically, I'm, I've been our homes like financial manager for as long as we've been a household because my husband has no, he has no interest in any of that. And so he just, you know, it's, it's funny, and but like, wow, you know, I'm earning my keep by just me like making sure the money goes where it's supposed to win. But it's, yeah, it is. It's not always practical. But I was just reading this book called fair play by Yves Brodsky. And I got to this chapter that was, I think the title, the chapter was reclaim your right to be interesting. And it was all about how, you know, when women become mothers, they often just allow that to like subsume their whole identity. And whoever is expecting us to do that, no one is happy with the results when we are not doing the things anymore that like make us interesting to ourselves, let alone anyone else and that she had asked all these men, you know, can you say, Can you name something? A way that you are proud of your wife. And a lot of them would say, wish she's a wonderful mother or he I don't know what we would do without her. She keeps everything together? And she said no, no, no. But something about her that you are proud of external to what she's doing for you. And then so many of them had nothing. They couldn't name anything that they were proud of their partner for. That didn't revolve around domestic responsibilities. And I say oh, that's That's so sad. And I realized you it hasn't always we haven't always been in complete agreement about how each of our time should be divvied up here, but I know you know, my husband says all the all the time is, uh, you know, Oh, I'm so proud of you. Like you're doing these like really impressive things. And, you know, I feel like what am it I'm just going and like by I'm writing, as I know, that's cool too. But you know that, that it's, I didn't mean to do do it for that reason. But I, as I read that chapter, I was like, oh, that's what we did, though, is that we made room for me to keep doing my creative work. But that's the thing that sort of makes me who I am and makes my my life interesting. And, you know, if I'm not, if I'm not doing it, I'm not really showing up as an ideal person to live with. I can relate to that. Yeah, that's what I'm, I don't think of it as like taking resources away from your family, because you need to invest some resources in your own, you know, intellectual sustenance, or else, it's just, you're not going to be showing up as the person that you want to be eventually. I couldn't agree with that more. That's, that's, that has put it so well, I'm taking that quote. And you're gonna hear that quote, In your introduction? Because that is spot on. Yeah, absolutely. Do you feel that way with your son? I mean, he's nine. So he, you know, he'd be aware of what mom does. Do you feel like that's important that he sees you as more than just want to say just mum, because we never just mom, but you know what I mean? Yeah, no, that's very important to me. And even before he was born, I, I wrote down somewhere, I would say, I want him. I want him to see me, as you know, a parent who does who like achieves things. And who wants things for themselves and who does something. And I, yeah, and I, even when he was very small, and I was doing less of my own work, I started to realize how important to me it was for, for him to see that. And not just see me like keeping the house and my husband going out and doing things and having an interesting job that he went to. And then I don't know, I would, I was a child of two working parents. And I just remember seeing my mom worked so hard, and she still does, like where she's like, one of the hardest working people I know. And she, you know, she would dabble in things, you know, crafts and stuff that she did just for herself. But I remember as a kid, you know, wishing that she had like, there was more space for her to do things like that, or what? Even when I was a kid, obviously no kid ever asked to say, Mom, what did you actually want to do? Before you had a child, or, you know if you could have had any career because she I mean, she worked at this store. And you know, did I think that her dream in life was to like work at the store. Yeah, that's what she ended up doing. And like, we all have something we ended up doing. Like I didn't become like a famous musician as I planned, either. But yeah, it's interesting, even as a kid, and especially after my sister was born, and she was working like an overnight shift, and she would come home and like, take a little like, hour nap and then take my sister to preschool and like, go back to work. And even as a selfish teenager, I was like, how is she doing this? Like, how does she how is this like, survivable for her? And I mean, I think Mountain Dew was the answer. When I asked her she's like I drink a lot of Mountain Dew. but I just I wanted, because I had the privilege to do so. And I was aware even as a young person that my own mother did not have as much privilege as I have to pursue something that like, I alone could not live off of my, like, my contributions to our household are not like, paying the mortgage and buying the groceries. But I, yeah, I like I wanted my son to see that. I have, you know, an identity, and aspirations and things that I am doing. Because I think it's a lot also to put on a child. If they are, like, everything you have going on. It's just, it just feels like maybe that's a maybe that's a like a heavy thing. Like, if, if I am the thing that my parents is like living through, you know, what does that what expectations does that put on me and like, how I enjoy and experience my life? And yeah, you know, as opposed to if we are to humans who are very much enmeshed in each and each other's existence. But also, like, it's, yeah, when I, when I was younger, I had some relationships where I just did not realize that you should always have something else going for your own, like mental stability, like you shouldn't put all of your eggs in one relational basket, you know, because stuff falls apart. And you know, it's, if your kid is having a hard time. And that's hard time for you, like, having something to turn to. Hmm. That's it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. So that if, if I'm having a big parenting struggle, you know, hopefully, I'm not also having a big riding struggle. But even if I am, it's the way out of those struggles is very different. And the amount of control I have over the resolution of those struggles is very different. So it's definitely a little bit of a balancing thing. Yeah, I think even Yeah, even before kids are involved, or even if they're not involved, I think it's so important for, for couples to have something that that isn't each other. Something they can go and do by themselves. Because we all need space, you know, we all have to Oh, yeah, have to have time align and do things we enjoy and reset, spend time with other people, and then we can come back fresh and, you know, give each other time to miss each other. You know, we're not in each other's pockets all day long. Oh, we are, especially now that I mean, we've been both working from home since 2020. So if you don't have something else going on, I feel like that's a that's a problem. But yeah, my mom always told me that when I was I was as a child very a I get very attached to like one best friend. And then, you know, I when I was in high school, I had, you know, boyfriend and so then like, I focused all my energy on that. And my mom always told me, she's like, Yeah, this is you. You never know what's going to happen. And you should never like, just have one person. Because what if you get into a fight, then you're just alone, you know? And, but it's, it's very true that it's, yeah, like, even without kids. It's too it's too much on one person to make you know, this relationship, like the thing I have going on. Yeah, it's, yeah, the ability to like leave and come back. And, you know, my, I guess my parents set an example of that, for me, because they like their extracurricular activities outside the house. We're, I'm trying to think if any of them were like things they did together. I'm not sure they were. Yeah. That, you know, my mom had stuff that she did. She like, did bowling and you know, my dad would go on golf trips with his friends. But yeah, it's, you know, they didn't. They didn't feel like oh, boy, I have to include you. Yes. So, yeah, that's awesome. That's it. It's very important. We call it mum guilt, mom guilt, mommy guilt, whatever you want to call it. How do you feel about that? Do you? Do you resonate with that at all? Or something you don't even? Not even on your radar? Oh, it's definitely on the radar. Yeah, so when my son was very small, he did not really get upset when I would leave to go, you know, if I went to the beach for three, four days to write, he was fine. And I, I'm trying to think when it was it, it's like the, just the past maybe two years, I feel like he's become much more attached to me. And started to develop a very different relationship with his dad than he has with me, which makes sense because like, we're very different people that he gets very different things from. But he it also means that he like actively, like, vocally misses me when I go away. And he'll send me messages from his iPad. It's like, I miss you so much with like, the crying face emoji and like, and he'll, you know, he'll be really sad. And I've, like, I feel, you know, what, it's hard. Because then even before when he wouldn't get that sad, even though you know, right before, it was like, the day that I was leaving, I would always feel guilty. Like, is this? Like, should I really be doing this? You know, is it really worth all this to like, leave my kid behind. And now, you know, now that he's older as I go, I'll miss you so much. And it's very sweet. But it's also it plays into that guilt of, like, is this like, really? Okay, for and in logically, I'm like, of course it is. Because he needs to learn how to, this is like a human experiences, like people go away, and we miss them, and they come back, and we're happy to see them. And that's a very normal and healthy part of existence. And someone should have told me that and said, Please, like, don't miss out on the opportunity to study abroad in college, just because you don't want to, like, miss someone that you're dating. Like. That's, that's not acceptable. But, um, yeah, so of course, I know that it's like a developmental thing. That's good, you know, for him to learn that I will leave and then also come back. And that is, that is okay. And we can all survive. But yeah, it is, especially if he's like, going through a tough time. Where, you know, maybe he's been like arguing with his dad, or like, he got in trouble in school or something. And he's feeling extra, like needy of the, like, emotional, like, sit around and talk support that he comes to me for, you know, then I feel extra because I'm like, Oh, this is a terrible time to be leaving him. Like, why am I leaving him now? But, yeah, it's so it's hard. And then when, at the beginning of at the beginning of this year, I worked a lot to do developmental editing on this book that's coming out in the spring, and I didn't pay attention to my own social life or my family or anything. It was it was attractive as a dark time. But he like basically organized his own birthday party and like, set everything up outside and I felt a little bad because I was like, oh, no, you know, I didn't even like, I didn't even get it together to help my child. Like, just put tape on me. He's like, carrying the folding chairs outside. Yeah, so it definitely I adapt honestly feel it. And even though he like, thinks it's very cool that I'm an author, I think he thinks that authors are like, famous and make a lot of money. Yes, I want to be a writer when I grow up too. And I was like, Well, if you're doing it for the money, I'm, I'll tell you right now. That's, that's not the way but yeah, so like he thinks it's very, very cool. But I still do like, especially when I go away. Yeah, if I travel to like, I do a writing retreat with a friend every year, even if I just go for a couple days to the beach to to catch up. Yeah, it's like, it's like, right before I leave is when it's the worst. Yes. And I just have that like, avalanche of self doubt. That's like, but like, I should be here for him. And, you know, always sad and. But and then do you tell yourself that's not true? Yeah, I just tried to tell myself. No, that's, and of course, my husband says he'll be fine. It's fine. Like, he'll like when you leave, then he'll just like, you're gone. So it's not like you're leaving. It's you're already gone. And then he just will find others. He'll find stuff to do. And I'll be fine. Sorry. Okay. Usually, yeah. Oh, yeah. What sort of music are you doing? So my, when I was a kid, I was involved in a lot of community groups, my favorite was pit orchestra for musicals, operas, and stuff. That was a lot of fun. And I did some chamber music, which was also fun. And I plan to go to school for it until I didn't. And then was that violin or cello what we've learned. So I started on the violin, and I picked up the flute in fourth grade. And that was where I had the most aptitude. It's hard to find a place for yourself as a flute player sometimes. So I played violin, in some groups that were looking to fill in a big violin section, and if I actually had to be really good, that's when I got the flute I, you know, for orchestra or band or something needed someone to fill in for a concert, I would just like kind of drop in for the dress rehearsal and play the concert the next day and have a good time. I could do that on the flute. I could not do that on any other instrument for sure. Yeah. But it was it was a ton of fun. I miss it a lot. Doing that stuff. But yeah, do you play it oh, now just for fun. I haven't in a while because it's a the flute is really a group instrument as far as I'm concerned. And when I moved down here, I did not have a group I didn't I wasn't plugged into all the music community people. I no longer had a community where people would just kind of call me and say that they needed someone. And I didn't know quite how to find that. I'm not the most outgoing person anyone has ever met. So I kind of fell out of it. And then I got a little rusty and I got sad about that. And so now I sort of dabble with the piano and the guitar because they're solitary, more so or they can be but I would love to get back into it. I'm actually looking to scale back some of my other volunteer responsibilities so that I can go back to that again, because it was something that was very nourishing to me at one point in my life and it feels wasteful. It feels wasteful to have a like an outsize ability with something thing and then just to not do anything with it. And I know that's not always the best way to think about stuff but it you know, it's in the back of my head sometimes. Yeah, that was the thing that was the thing you were really good at and be it just didn't do it anymore. Why not? Well, like Yeah, yeah, but no. Yeah, you never do you know, and I I did you know post something online in the spring just to see if anybody had suggestions and I got a whole list. And so I figure when I'm feeling bold and brave, and I've, you know, quit a couple of other things that I need to pass on so you said your books coming out in spring? So what month what month? Is that? So it's April 25. Is the launch date? Yep. April 20. We have that's like our, you know, how you have like Veterans Day or something like that. What do you have? Not Memorial Day? What's your memorial Days in May? Yeah. Veterans Day is in November. Yeah. Okay, we have this that our Anzac days kind of version of that we remember the people that went to war in the First World War. So yeah, 25th. There you go. I won't forget that date. That's important that whereabouts will people be able to get your book from when it comes out? Well, so it's actually, I'm just about to launch into the shameless self promotion phase of things. That's going to be really hitting in January. That's the most uncomfortable part, I think of being an introverted artist of any kind. But it is actually available for preorder now. Yeah, so it's on Amazon. And there's your if you go on indie bound, you can get it I always tell people to get it from the independent bookstore. I know some people buy it on Amazon anyway. But the the local bookstore is where it's at. But then it'll be Yeah, it'll it should be available in ebook to Apple books and can and Kindle. But yeah, I can, I can give a link that has all of that in there. That'd be great. Even though it's the the really like heavy duty promotion is still you know, few weeks, maybe a month away the the preorder links are up and an active and testing. So I hesitate to ask then is there another book in your, in your future? So that's, yeah, there is there's more than one actually. And that's been my big struggle. This year, is getting this one is done. And I now have two or three books that are waiting to be drafted and unfinished. And I don't have anything in between. And it's like having children with a huge age gap. Between them, it's, it's a little disorienting, and you know, it's because 2020 everything shut down. And we had a year and a half I think of virtual school. You know, for which I was the point person. Yeah, so I really like the deep dark days of the pandemic and virtual school time. I did not do intensive like writing projects at all. And because it just was not it wasn't possible. Yeah, I know it was for some people it was was not for me. And I did you know my little podcast for my Patreon people and I did blog posts. But you know, I books were not getting written during like virtual school and trying to figure out how to get like canola oil on toilet paper, it just the in terms of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we were really stuck at the base for a long time. But now this year, I have come out of that I've had a lot more time to work. And it's but it is very difficult to come to terms with the work that didn't happen during that time. Because that work that didn't happen means that I don't have books that are well into the editing phase now that I've I'm like, Ah, I have to you know, really kick it into high gear and draft up these books and get them you know, somewhere. But yeah, but it was a little demoralizing for a moment. And it still is sometimes. Just just how much time I lost. And I'm sure many, many parents in my similar situation. Have that. Yeah, it's like, your, your thing had to just completely stop so that your children's things could happen. Yeah. And just that we were all all of us here all the time. Yeah, yeah. So the books, you've got your, in your head that are going to happen, are they fiction or nonfiction ones? So I have my next novel, pretty well planned out. And it's just a matter of drafting it. I've never had quite so much a plan before. I mean, it's a very loose plan, because I don't, I'm not a heavy outliner or planner for fiction. And nonfiction, I have an essay collection that I've been working on. That's my, my next two nonfiction books are going to be much less prescriptive than, than the first and much more like personal experience writing like memoir style. Because that's a lot of people seem to have connected with my writing makes you feel seen. Yeah. And to have an experience similar to their own, like, articulated in a certain way. And so I'm excited to really, like lean into that. Yeah. It sounds good, to be very valuable, you know, people feel like what they're going through is legitimate, I guess. And you talked about that community that you've sort of built around your first book. Yeah, yeah. So important. A lot of people have written and said, you know, thank you for putting this out there. And I thought that I was the only one who had this experience. And, you know, it's reassuring to know that it's not just me. So good on Yeah. Because it can be quite daunting to sort of share like that, to put it all out there. And did you have moments like that when you're writing the book, you're thinking or do I? How much of this do I want to share? I suppose, or are you just passionate about getting it all out there. So as a nonfiction writer, I, I don't have a whole lot of a filter. I although I will say some of my most successful writing has been the stuff I was most afraid to put out there. So that kind of says something. I actually feel a lot more anxious about putting my not my fiction out into the world, which is an interesting thing. I think it's just because I know not everyone's gonna like me. And so as a nonfiction writer, you know, if people don't, this is who I am. And if it doesn't resonate with people, or they, they don't like, they don't like me or my take on the world, then it's, in some ways easier for me to just be like, okay, like, really, I've, I've never been for everyone. And I don't need to be the likeable character in your story, either. So that's okay. A lot of people are responding to it. Yeah, but fiction and something that's entirely your own creation. It's, it does feel very different. Because it's, yeah, it's something that I created specifically to resonate with the most people possible. But even so, if you've ever been in a book club, it no book is for everyone. Yeah, I kind of feel like that. Like, we've, in general, like, I mean, I love I love and respect every artist that I meet because of what they're doing, just because they're doing the thing that they love, and they getting it out there. But I don't necessarily resonate with every kind of art, you know, and same with music, ya know? And I think that's fine. That's what makes us human and different. We're all different. And that's fine either. That's, yeah, that's completely normal. Yeah, that's resonating with someone it's, you know, it's and but it is interesting because I it occurred to me at some point this year, so I'm a lot more nervous about this book launch earlier on, than I was with the last one. The last one was like on launch day, I kind of had a little bit of a panic. Just like what if this is actually terrible, and no one told me but You know, which this book is not self published. So it's I mean, I, I've had like a whole team behind it. It's not terrible and no one said anything. It's still like, I know, because I just know people, you know, people are gonna get on Good Reads and write some scathing criticism. And it's just it's going to happen and it's why they tell you don't read your don't read your own reviews. Yeah, it's better not to know. You just gotta be what you've done. And if people message and say how much they loved it, that's what you hold on to. Yeah, no, I have a whole folder of those like, I never get rid of those. Those reader emails, I just drag them all into the into the little folder. Alright, whenever I need this. Yes, that is awesome. Yep. Good on. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on today. I really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been a pleasure to meet you. All the best with the with the release that's coming out in April, and with your future work, and I'll definitely share anything I say because I just think what you're doing is awesome. And yeah. Thanks again. Oh, thank you. Yeah, no, this is nice. I appreciate it. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Elim, Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband John. If you'd like to learn more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Claire Tonti Australian musician and podcaster S4Ep97 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week I am pleased to welcome Claire Tonti to the show. Claire is a musician and podcaster from Melbourne VIC and a mum to 2 children. Claire was right into music in her early 20s, and has come back to it later in life. She recently released her album Matrescence which she began writing at the beginning of 2022. She returned to music after having long covid and being at her lowest point mentally and physically . Matrescence was inspired by what she was feeling and going through post partum and a lot of the songs are inspired by people and women particularly who she had listened to speak over many years of podcast interviewing. Claire hosts 2 podcasts, currently Tonts and Suggestible with her husband, and she has previously hosted Just Make The Thing , She runs a podcast company with her husband who is a comedian, podcaster and youtuber. Claire is an ambassador for C.O.P.E. and The Giget Foundation and is so passionate about supporting mothers, You can tell Claire is a podcaster/interviewer, as she somehow turns the tables on me during this episode and at times it is hard to tell who is interviewing who! This is a really vulnerable and emotional episode. Matrescence is the physical, emotional, hormonal and social transition to becoming a mother. This episode contains mentions of post natal depression and anxiety, pre natal anxiety, birth trauma, post natal depletion, Claire - website / instagram / music Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Claire, tracks from her recent album Matrescence. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mom guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music plate, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone dig people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the podcast. It's great to have you here from wherever you're listening, whether it be Australia, United States or in Ireland. This week, I'm pleased to welcome Claire tante to the show. Claire is a musician and podcaster from Melbourne, Victoria, and she's a mom to two children. Claire was right into music in early 20s and has come back to it later in life. She recently released her album called muttrah essence, which she began writing at the beginning of 2022. She returned to music after having long COVID And being at her lowest point mentally and physically. Her album muttrah essence was inspired by what she was feeling and going through postpartum. And a lot of the songs are inspired by people and women particularly who she had listened to speak over many years of podcast interviewing Claire hosts to podcast currently taunt and suggestible with her husband, and she's previously hosted just make the thing. She runs a podcast company with her husband who is a comedian, a podcast and a YouTuber. Claire is an ambassador for cope and the Gidget foundation and she is so passionate about supporting mothers. When you listen to this today, you can tell that Claire is a podcaster and an interviewer as she somehow manages to turn the tables on me during this episode. And at times, it's hard to tell who exactly is interviewing her. This is a really vulnerable and emotional episode with both Claire and myself sharing a lot of intimate details regarding our childbirth experience and postpartum. This episode contains mentions of postnatal depression, anxiety, prenatal anxiety, birth trauma, and postnatal depression. Throughout today's episode, you'll hear snippets of Claire's music tracks taken from her brand new album called mitr essence, which is available on all of the streaming platforms now, we can head to the link in the bio to purchase them. Please take care of yourselves and enjoy the episode bye. It's been two knees hands yours and mine. beaten, beaten in time. Same rhythm, same kind cause the light brown things clickety clack in and trains long the music came to heart beat the same. Well thank you, Claire, thank you for coming on. Appreciate you being part of the podcast. It's a pleasure to welcome you today. Oh, thank you so much. It's such a joy to be here. I've been really looking forward to this. Oh, good. Excellent. I actually I have been looking forward to change you too. Because as a musician, I love talking to musicians. I love talking to everybody. But you know, it's always good to converse in something that you know. Yeah, you kind of get the weird and wild well don't you like being amused though, and all the different like personality stuff and egos and just like the magic of it too, you know, I guess right? It's really nice. And also to say someone who else is a mom and a musician today, I think to kill a hybrid. Yes, yes. It's its own whole new world really isn't it? Absolutely is exactly right. All right, Alison. Yeah. So yes, you're a musician. People know that now. But you're also, you're also a podcaster. And I think you do too to podcast. Is that right? I do. Yeah, we're not Well, like I think a lot of parents and mothers particularly would say, it's a total mess or time and a rolling feast. But it's also been so much fun, I sort of, I started, just make the thing with my first podcast, which is how to start a thing and keep on making it. And that was an experiment to kind of find my voice. And if I could make a thing, I wasn't doing music. At that point, I had two little kids and running a podcast company doing all the behind the scenes, because my partner's a podcaster, and a YouTuber. And so after I was a primary school teacher, and then went on maternity leave, I sort of started there, helping him to monetize his show, and then other local comedians around the tracks. And I had convinced myself that I wasn't a creative person, but that my role in life was to help other people to be creative. And that's what I loved about teaching and what I kind of built my world as. And for some reason, didn't think I deserved my own space for creativity. And music was certainly the biggest and scariest thing for me. And so I also convinced myself that it wasn't really something I could do, and I wasn't good enough at it. So I probably stopped did music in early 20s, and then came back to it. And so yeah, all that is to say, I started with just make this thing which was just this kind of little dipping my toe in the water. And then I started suggestible, which is a recommendation show with my husband, where we recommend things watch, read and listen to we argue every week, he brings his post apocalyptic style was like, like vibe. And I bring my books written by mainly women, and rom coms, and we kind of like discuss it, he actually, to be fair, he also brings a lot of content made by diverse voices. And he's got a really big depth of knowledge in that space. So it's actually been a beautiful show to do. A lot of people listen with their partners, which has been really beautiful as well and recommend recipes, and that kind of things, that sort of comedy, and recommendations. And then Tonsai began couple of years ago now. And that's my interview show where I look at emotions really. And I talk to people about their stories. I really am interested in women's stories and diverse voices, activists, writers, experts, and thinkers, and deeply feeling humans really. And that's been the biggest joy to create that show. I'm currently working on Season Four at the moment. And interestingly, as I've grown in this space, I've found that I'm now talking more and more about women's health and hormones, interviewing women about chronic stress and how to make it all work as mothers even I interviewed Jane Harper, and that was a thing we talked about for ages, which was how to deal with mother guilt, and the complex nature of all of that stuff. So even the people you think that have it all figured out? Definitely don't. That was a long winded way of saying yes. No, that's fabulous. I love that. So I can breathe easy. I want to making space from me, like where Paul's pie. But what you've done is breaking me down so far. I can't get up. Because you so call now. Just call taunt is obviously like a play on your username tante. Where is that surname from was what's the heritage of that? So yeah, my full surname is Tonti Filippini. But I just shortened it to 20. And then my friends call me Tom. It's been a nickname that's been around for a while. So that's why I use that. I love it. Yeah, my dad didn't tell you. Yeah, cool. And I love that, like what I'm finding through this podcast, it's just so awesome to talk to other people. Like just like I was saying before about, you know, the mother, the mother, musician, like there's all these different worlds. And, like, I'm discovering so much stuff that I never knew before and learning so many things aren't even new and seeing different perspectives. And I guess you'd experienced that too with talking to so many different people. Yeah, absolutely. I've learned so much. I think that now I've released this album called nitro essence, which I started writing at the beginning of last year. And I realized I came to music after long COVID And I was really at my lowest point and I've been speaking and talking to women for a really long time. And by that point, and listening to a lot of different voices and artists and writers and creatives, but not actually really stepping into my identity as an artist, but I think all of that listening and all of those conversations kind of came together for me at that time, and when I couldn't watch TV I couldn't, I was really so depleted after having my second baby during COVID. And also homeschooling and doing all the things that we all did during that time, particularly if you had kids that everyone had their own struggles, and, you know, as musicians and artists as well, it was a really, really challenging time for the industry overall. But yeah, when I got long COVID, and had postnatal depletion, and I really just could parent and rest, I couldn't work and then use it kind of came back into my life, there's a way to listen. And then I developed this cough and as a podcast or a coffee is not very good to have like real coffee feeds. And so I decided to go and get some singing lessons. And I was still telling myself it was just because I had this cough that I needed to figure out. And then very quickly after I started singing lessons with my teacher, Bianca fan, she saw my songwriting, and said, Did you know you're a songwriter? And what are you doing with them. But I do think so many of the songs that came from that place, I took them to her nephew, they heal, and he's a music producer. And initially, it was going to be two songs we'd record and very quickly, it exploded to be 11 songs about I didn't realize what my tresses was at that point. But it was really just about what I was feeling and going through. A lot of those songs are inspired by the people and the women, particularly who I've listened to fake overseas. And I think that's the beauty of podcasting, you get these kind of lovely microcosms of connection with people that you may never speak to otherwise, doing work that you really admire or that you're interested in, you learn so much. And then as an artist, and as a creative, you almost like absorb it or like a sponge, and it sits there somebody in the back of your brain, I always think I have like a spider that lives in the back of my brain collecting things. You know, just like a bow a bird. You don't have a lot of time to like, we wait for the right moon to come out in the sky to like write your beautiful sonnet or whatever. So it just sits there collecting things while I'm busy doing other stuff. And I think for me, it was like 15 years of busy doing other stuff. So when I finally let that spider out, sounds strange, but you know, it was suddenly like, excellent. Here's all these things and all the stuff that you've learned and heard about from other women and also your own journey. So yeah, yeah, podcasting, it's a magic space to be well, I can definitely relate to that. Like, I found that by hearing other people's perspective on their creativity, it allowed me to be a lot more free with mine and not have these, like I'm can be quite a perfectionist and have the standards that things have got to be a particular way, which is good in some respects with my music. But then in other, like my painting, I never thought I could paint or draw because it was it didn't look very good. So that was my thing, I won't do it, because I can't do it sort of thing. And then just, I mean, it sounds really obvious, but there's a lot of different kinds of painting, but because I've never really delved into it, or talk to anyone about it. It just was the one of these things I just didn't do. And just by talking to people and realizing that you can do whatever you want, like, oh, wow, this is great. And so now I enjoy that as part of like, it's almost like a bit of a self care sort of thing, where if I'm processing, you know, as situation or emotions, whatever i i will often just be drawn to the painting side of things. So it's become a really good tool for me, you know, to look after myself and my mental health. So yeah, like, I would never have tried that or done that if I hadn't talked to so many people about it. So that's been really good for me. Yeah. I think that it's so magical. And having that kind of tactile outlet that we've the paint in the color, we can just imagine that would be so soothing. Yeah, and I do really believe deeply that creativity in the arts is a big tool in the toolkit of healing. And I think and particularly matriculants, for those who don't know, is a word that describes the complex transition to motherhood that happens through adolescence, similarly to adolescence. So if we think of hormone to use identity crisis, body changes, social networks change, who we are as a person shifts, the people, the way people see us in the world shifts when we become an adolescent. It's the same in retracements. And I think there's a really powerful way that art and creativity can really help women and people who give birth to move through that transition. And I think in our culture, it's often underrated and undervalued. Yeah, absolutely. I thought it would be it was the last thing I tend to when actually, it was a thing that worked for me. And it's not as tight. You know, obviously, there was diet related changes and medication is also really amazing and going to see medical professionals but yeah, creativity cannot be underestimated for effective. Yeah. Are you watching? Video thing? Yeah, I don't know, more than rolling. Blame news. Five. DNA, me, and just on that, like, the Moto essence has become a word that's very common now, I suppose. And it's only been in the last few years, I think that it's really been something that people talk about and refer to in that way. And I can't feel like, you know, you're talking about the teenager is a similar sort of comparative time with all the changes, like, I feel like we give teenagers a break, like, we say, oh, you know, they're really struggling, because it's this time, you know, the hormones are changing, and we seem to give them a lot of, sort of give them a break. But when it comes to mums that are struggling, it's like, well, that's what you're supposed to do, you're supposed to have a baby, you know, like, it's, it's almost like suck it up, because that's your body. And like you're a woman, that's what you're supposed to do. So just do it. You know, do you feel like we said, that's not a feeling that is not a culture, it's the culture we live in. And it's not the culture that exists across the globe. I know, for example, in India and in China, and a lot of other traditions Bali have a lot of traditions like this to a woman when she gives birth, particularly for the first time is seen as a newborn, just like a newborn is, there's a phrase the newborn mother that I love, because really you are your child, like you don't know yet what you're doing yet, you don't know how to feed your baby yet you don't know what this new body is even going to look like or what it's going to mean, there's milk coming out your boobs, how did that even happen? And often, even in the lead up, that the word mature essence should be spoken about before women or people who give birth even embark on parenthood. It's so it's a really huge transition to make. And in our culture, we just push women out of the hospital after two days and say figure it out yourself. And you'll be right. And part of it is underfunding. But I also think it's a loss of village. And it's also a lot of and a devaluing of wisdom and knowledge that used to be passed down through generations. And so in those traditions, like there's a beautiful woman who works at our local bookstore, Mira and I went in there with my album, and we were talking and she said, yeah, when I was becoming a mother, my mother moved in with me for 40 days, I wasn't allowed to leave the bed, she brought all the food to me really warming foods cleaned, my house cooked, we had a whole lot of people coming in. All I had to do was feed my baby, and then and then they would put her down. And so she said during the pandemic, she prepared her bags to do that for her own daughter, and then couldn't go because of COVID, which and there's just so many micro mini stories of tragedy through COVID. And but one of the big overarching stories is that all the problems that were there inherent with the lack of care from others, a lack of honoring of their journey, the lack of knowledge around what they actually need, and let me tell you, it's not nurseries and Pinterest boards and special bugaboo prams, it's, it's psychology before they even get to start to become pregnant. It's really knowing themselves. It's understanding they can advocate themselves in the birth for themselves. In the birthing room, they can be in charge of their birth and not handed over to the doctors who technically know best in inverted commas. They know their body, and they know what they need, and should be empowered to know all of their options. So that when they get in there, if there's someone in that room who isn't being supportive of them, they can tell them to eff off. Yeah, yeah. And also then moving from there having postpartum planning. So that's where I hadn't even heard of the word doula when I had my kids. And then I think I thought the word doula was like a boozy thing that maybe Gwyneth Paltrow did in Hollywood. Like, why would you do that? When actually it's just a woman who understands the process of birth and can advocate for you if your partner doesn't know and often, your partner is a bloke and he is just as much in the dark as you are. So having someone there that can also then come and care for you afterwards if you don't have that village support. So all of that is to say that essence was coined in the 1970s by Donna Raphael. And she's an amazing anthropologist, and then brought back in kind of the early 2000s, by early Athan, and she was an academic based in Canada. And she brought that term back, but it's coming back again. And I think it's really because COVID highlighted just how ginormous, the problems are in a culture that doesn't care for mothers and honors them in the way they should be. And now, with this knowledge that I have, I totally get what I went through when I have my kids. And I just think so many women, when they hear that term go, Ah, okay, it wasn't just that I needed to suck it up. And I couldn't hack it. And, you know, I couldn't be that perfect mother and I was good. I thought I'd love it every minute. And I did in all conversely, I love it, but I'm different to who I was. And maybe my friendships look different, and my body looks different. And this understanding that I think he's powerful, I will say as well. And I wonder if you resonate with this that just like some people went through adolescence, and we're bloody great at it, like just knew what to wear. You had to go to I don't know, neither right parties to go to seem to have less glamorous photos of them, you know, just by party. Love. Yeah, really rocky adolescence, like, very awkward times, terrible outfits, incredibly nerdy. And I love that girl now so much, because I think she was so unique and weird and great and kooky and wrote a lot of poetry and just thought didn't know who she was in. Glorious. But I just think that's the same for women, like, go through retracements and love it, and some are gonna struggle on it's a huge spectrum. And then on the other end of it is a question I've been asking a lot I don't have an answer to and I'm not an expert. I'm just a mother and a musician with my stories. But what is a same reaction to a really difficult time in your life in contrast, and so what's a very difficult for tresses versus what is clinical diagnosis of postnatal depression or psychosis, and things that need medical intervention. And I think it's a really gray area. And something I've been speaking to professionals about now. And I'm interested to talk more about on my podcast because I think some of the rocky part of that early motherhood is just like, of course, you find these hard because it is bloody hard. But then there's also a line there, when is it appropriate? And medication and other options are very fast. So like Coca Cola in summer like soap is a pattern no matter what though, as your last flowers in bloom found the blue love if you don't become an ambassador for Coke, and also the Gidget foundation. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I'm really passionate about letting women and people out there know about their services. So cope has an amazing e directory where you can put in your postcode, and it will show you all of the services available in your area for whatever you need in that early parenthood, Merit Peri natal space. And lots of research. There's also a great app that you can download on your phone. So you can do screening for postnatal depression, privately, rather than having to go to a maternal health nurse necessarily. And there's wonderful maternal health nurses too, but can often be very confronting, and sometimes you feel a bit judged. And so doing that privately is great. So Koch is amazing. And the Gidget Foundation, have free counseling available online. So you can call a number and speak to someone immediately, as do Canada. And I would really encourage anyone listening to this to suspect they have a friend who's struggling a family member who's struggling, if they're struggling, it doesn't matter how long ago you had your baby, either. That or whatever you went through in the kind of perinatal mental health space, those surfaces and services are available. So anyway, I keep giving you very long winded answers. No, it's really good. Because you say you, you there's so many points you've raised, and I keep writing them down to come back to which is it's cool. But yeah, thank you for mentioning that. And that's really cool that you're you're an ambassador for them because I feel like I was actually talking to someone yesterday, and I can't even think who they were this is really bad when you talk to so many people. It all runs around in your head but it's same thing like I hacked back to my days of 15 years ago, prenatal class was basically teaching you how to watch a video of a natural birth. Just to freak you out a bit more and to scare all the dads. And basically the extent of you know, they taught you how to change a nappy, they gave you hints on settling, which were one of them was run your baby's pram over, like a lump on the floor, like, and I was like, Okay, now I realize how dumb that is. Sorry, not dumb, unhelpful. Some of it was. And the they got a guy to come and talk from Beyond Blue. And all I remember from him, was saying, I It's good going to be a bit rough. Yeah, so good luck with that. Like, I literally remember him saying, so good luck with that. And I just thought afterwards when, like, this is the culture of what you're giving mothers, this is what this is normal to give mothers and yeah, looking back on that I think my God, no one has struggled and just about lost it, you know. But the other thing you said, too, and I was actually thinking that the same thing when you were talking about it about the fine line, or the difference between just having a really crappy experience in that mattress since period? Or when does it get to that point of that, you know, needing medical intervention or whatever. And I was thinking the same thing. I was like, Wow, that sounds like my first experience. With my first son. I kept saying, like, my husband said to me, I reckon you've got that thing. They taught to be able to impregnate a class and like, No, I don't, I don't have postnatal depression, I'm just having a bad day, you know, and everything I could justify, I could say all night, just because I had a bad sleep all night. It's just because he didn't sit or, you know, I was telling myself these stories. And I even managed to slip through the cracks with the nurse that come round to and did like one of those cute hands or whatever. They are like the screener. You know, have you felt like this? Like, oh, I think it was like every day for the past two weeks. I was like, No, I haven't not for the past two weeks. But it's been a lot of days. But because I didn't meet those criteria. I was like, see, I have fun. So yeah, I didn't like that. There's still a lot to be said for that sort of intervention as well. But I wonder if that was it was just a really difficult period. And then because I had the next one there seven years between my kids for that reason of harrowing, not the greatest start, but I got really bad postnatal depression, and I was medicated and and almost hospitalized. But we didn't do that, because I wouldn't have been able to keep breastfeeding. So yeah, you sort of wonder if that first experience had have been a little more positive and more like sort of picked up by professionals or whatever that are maybe could have avoided the second one. I don't know. I'm so sorry, Alison. I mean, I had a really, it's so hard. Yeah. And do you know what I think too, I think we have to really kind to ourselves, because like with each baby, it's a new start of matriculants each time. Yeah. Which I don't think people say that you think I've had one? So the second one easy, I've done it like I'm warning, you know, right out. There's a difference between having no, it's not. And then the difference between having one and two is massive. And so and for each woman, it's really different, or each person I should say especially and I'm just so sorry, that happened to you, I think it's much more common than we think. And I know now, the rates are even higher from COVID. And I do think that this system is just failing women emotionally and spiritually, particularly, I think it's really undervalued just how important it is to really care from others. And that caring that needs to begin in the early part of your life really, before you even start to have kids and then through the transition in the hospital setting and then afterwards, and then the spaces that are okay to for you to actually be able to talk about how you feeling I agree. I I suspect I had postnatal but it went undiagnosed for that reason, because it was like, Are you feeling like this everyday? Well, no, not really. And also, you've asked me so many questions about my baby and he wasn't putting on weight and he had really bad reflux and I was advocating so much to him. I felt so scared that they would be like, well, she's a bad mother. She's not doing well. He's not putting on weight. And now she's like, What feeling like this and you just feel like you can't be honest. And even if you are honest, what support is there for you? Yeah, you know, is really, really super challenging. But I think the first step is talking to someone about it and having someone on the phone I think I didn't know at the time. That for me having someone to reach out to on the phone who's like a qualified counselor who can talk to you? And they're not, you know, without judgment where you can be honest and yeah, and all that stuff and just being real about the fact that Yeah, it's really hot. Yeah. Was like, yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't imagine having another child. Like, I just kept seeing myself in difficult situations. Like when I think about having a baby, it was all native. And that went on for, you know, almost seven years. Like it was just, I couldn't get past that. It was bizarre. Yeah. But now I've gotten two of them. And it's wonderful. Yeah. As I've gotten older, how old are they now? So 15 and nearly eight. So yeah, it's, I wouldn't recommend seven years age gap, if you're deliberately thinking of age gaps. They get on they get on well, at different times, depending on who's in charge, or who wants to do a particular thing. Because they are, you know, completely different places in their lives can be a little tricky. But I think the older that. Digby, my youngest, the older he gets, the easier it been for them to get on. Well, I think it's probably a fair thing to say. I'm ready to be given a find a flat by car. Taken. No one knows me here. That's what I was trying to say about who I was speaking to yesterday, that when were when we're thinking of becoming parents, and like you were saying, you think about what pram you're gonna get and what, you know, making your Pinterest board to make your nursery really beautiful. It's like, that should be like the last thing we do like that. It should be ingrained in our culture that you you search up, you have the support services in your phone, you know, you know, where you're gonna go, if you need help you have people who are going to make food for you all, you know, all this sort of stuff. It's, it's the after the birth stuff, when your home that you need the help with, it's the lady I spoke to yesterday, Mary, she said, she had this beautiful nursery in this beautiful car, and the baby never went in the car. She ended up giving it away. So yeah, I feel like I mean, I guess capitalism and commercialism drives that need for things to be new and pretty imperfect, and whatever, and this Instagram world where everything's got to look really good. But you know, getting back to the basics of actually caring for each other. And actually, I'm crapping on a fair bit now, but, but what I was what I noticed, when you were talking about the culture, I'm sorry, I can't remember what culture it was, but the lady you knew from your bookshop, and that basically, all she had to do is feed her baby nurse the baby, and then they'd even settle it and do everything else. And when I was in the worst throes of my postnatal depression, that was literally all I could do, I would feed him and give him back to my husband, and he would do everything else with him. So it was like, I was putting myself in that position without even you know, consciously realizing, I just needed so much help. And I was just, that was all I was capable of, and I couldn't even see myself leaving my bedroom. I had to be in my bed. You know, it was like this safe cocoon. So yeah, I was creating without even knowing I was creating that environment. Which is really, yeah. So interesting to hear. How did that change for you? But over the trajectory? Was there a point where you started to feel like I've got a handle on this, now I'm starting to heal. It took a while, like, we have, I mean, a regional town in my Gambia in South Australia. So we don't have a huge amount of services. But again, I didn't know they were there till I needed them. So it was this scramble, you know, when you need it, it's like, oh, my gosh, Googling things and whatever. But I was pleasantly surprised that we do actually have more services than I thought. So I had a a mental health nurse who would come over and just sit with us. And she wouldn't say anything. She was just there. And I got really familiar. My I think my husband, he found it a bit tricky, because he wasn't, you know, obviously he was in a different mental state than me. So he found it a bit weird that this lady was just sitting in our lounge room with us, but I really liked his, she was just there and she'd observe us and if I if I wanted to talk about things I could, and if I didn't want to, you know, she was just there and so I had her come on. For many weeks, and then one day, she said to me, I don't think I don't think you need me anymore. Because she said, she could just see the change in me physically, you know, from the first time she'd met me to, you know how I was interacting with the baby. And, you know, I was laughing a bit more, not just my demeanor had changed. And I was medicated pretty early on. So you know, you have that period of time, like, you know, three or four weeks for that to kick into your system. So that was a bit horrible. But yeah, if months, I guess my husband slept in the baby's room in a in a single bed, probably for about six months, I reckon, because I just couldn't bear the night times, they were the worst, because that was where all my triggers were when my previous baby was just being in the dark with a baby was just like, the worst thing I could imagine. So he took all that away from me. Yeah. And then one day said, Oh, do you reckon you reckon you might like to have a go or the way he said it? It was like a really kind way. It wasn't like, yeah, it was almost like a playful way. Like, do you think you might like to try and see how you go? I was like, God, not yet. No, not yet. It was sort of like no. But yeah, eventually. Yeah. So within the first year, I was back to relative normality. In my mental wellness, I think, what was it about the dark and babies that night? I think it was because I couldn't I had a lot of trouble settling him. And when I'd get him settled, he, he would wake up really easily. So it was like I felt trapped in there. I think it was like that. I'm in the dark. I'm by myself, like, no one else is helping me and I'm stuck here with this baby sort of thing. It was almost like a like I was Yeah. Yeah, like I was not abandoned. But I was the one that had to do it. And no one else was going to help me. sort of thing. Yeah. And yeah, it was horrible. And even in the daytime, he'd only sleep for 45 minutes. And, you know, to my detriment, I was reading this book that said, you know, you've got to get him to sleep for an hour and a half, blah, blah, blah. And so I'd be sitting in there in the dark, just patting and shushing, and patting his shushing, and this kid was ready to get up. But all the book told me I have to have to get him back to sleep. So in with my second child, are just like, I'm just going to do whatever the hell this kid wants, you know, like, he was just like, he's, he knows what he wants in his life, he wants to get up, he's gonna get up, just, you know, I just went in a completely different, completely different way. And I had a lot of time to think about it. So I had like, this list that I'd made, of all the things that I do differently. And I was actually just talking about this the other day to about and it wasn't necessarily practical things it was about myself, you know, like, don't be hard on yourself. It's doesn't matter if the house isn't clean. It's not a reflection on you how often the baby sleeps. And I was like, it doesn't matter if he has formula or if he's breastfed like it was all about taking the pressure off myself, basically. Because that's how I think I'd build up the first one, that it was all about me, I had to do everything I had to breastfeed him. You know, it was this real martyr sort of mentality, which wasn't very nice. Yeah. And do you know what the breastfeeding thing so I really struggled with breastfeeding. And I had been told by our hospital, like classes that you know, all women can breastfeed, some just can't have the pain. It's the only best way, blah, blah, blah, yeah, I remember writing it down. So I would play with such an a kind of a like, student, I was like making my little notes and being like, well, of course, I've run long distances, I know how to push through things, I'll be fine. And when it didn't work, no one said to me, formulas, fine. No one said, actually take the pressure off. A happy mom is much better for your baby than a mum that's struggling to breastfeed in an extraordinary amount of pain. And then, remember, the advice I got was, well, what you need to do is just keep on feeding. I remember calling like the breastfeeding hotline, and they'd be like, well, you're bleeding. You just keep feeding through that. And then you're not getting much milk. So what you need to do is feed the baby then you need to express and pomp and then you need to go and give them a top up a formula, because they're not putting on weight, then will weigh them all the time, like every day coming to the hospital. And because he vomited so much, he wasn't putting on weight anyway. But then I would be basically given advice, just not to sleep. But really, because by the time you do that, do it. You're not sleeping like what did that takes two hours, and then you're feeding them every two hours because they want you to increase their weight. And so I remember doing the same thing when I went to have my daughter and she's three my son's seven and she's three. I wrote myself a note because your hormones change so much. So you think you're going to be this rational person that you are before you have your baby. And during your pregnancy. You're pretty rational for me as soon as you have the baby It all kind of goes out the window. And remember, I'm reading my note to myself that said, you are doing this for two weeks. If it's not working, your formula is perfectly fine. And your baby will be perfectly fine. And I'm so glad I did that, because I did I just against their medical advice, because they like, I remember that this beautiful pediatrician was like, Well, yeah, you can actually stop. But like, don't tell anyone that I told you that you can stop breastfeeding. What total bullshit, like, everybody is unique. Everyone's baby's unique, you are unique. If someone had said that, to me that like just like some women are great at yoga, other women produce so much milk, they come back and feed a whole village. And you like I one of the women that probably in the village who's out organizing the fields, because you don't like sitting still. And so someone else would have fed your baby. Like, it's fine. Just like some women, it's just like all of us are unique. And even the relationship I didn't realize is that some babies have a different shape now to the nipple of the woman. And so there was just no way that they'd be able to feed because the baby has to come to the party just like you do, not to mention whatever you went through during your birth. And if you had a huge impact, and then also the way that you burst now I know can have an effect on your afterbirth and your motor presence because of the type of hormones and whether there was an interruption there, whether you had trauma from that, whether you were low in iron, all of that goes into milk production. And so there's just so it's so we're so mean, in a way the system feels me Yeah, yeah. And Jaggi. And yeah, like you're doing it wrong. Don't call me. And I'm actually interested in your perspective on this. This is not something that I have read in a study, it's just a gut feeling that I have full caveat. I'm a very creative person. I'm really great at a lot of things, talking music, writing, doing things that scare other people. Bloody Great. Admin, cleaning, turning off on time, total garbage. Fire on a calendar can't clean the fridge. Yeah, tell you the bloody I don't know, whatever day it is, I don't know, half the time. So like I have the skill set. But the other type of skill set for motherhood, I'm real shitter. And I think now excuse my language, I'm starting to progress. But now as I get all that, and my kids are getting older, I have the skill set that I think is really suited to that. But a lot of the baby stuff is like routine, and resting and staying still all the time, and not sleeping that much. And then like being at home in the same place doing the same thing every single day over and over again. And I wonder too, if you're a highly creative person who also needs that creativity to feel fill you up and feel like you and the excitement and adrenaline of new experiences. Motherhood rock can rob you of that. And I I wonder whether that's a piece of it to that as creatives and I think we're all designed to be creative, but highly sort of creative people with that scratching their head that needs to be etched because they constantly have to make stuff. Yeah, that I wonder whether that was a piece of it too. Huh. That's really interesting. I can totally resonate with what you're saying about cleaning. I seriously I just sometimes it's just not even on my radar. I don't even think about it. Because I'm just thinking of doing things. And I don't know. And then I think shivers, look at that carpet probably could do with a vacuum. But then do I go do it? Probably not straightaway. But you know what I mean? It's like your brain doesn't live in practical land, it lives in, I don't know, this different thing, which is finding their bodies. And also unique and special and great. And I think part of this struggle. I've written a song on my album called this mother thing which speaks into this fact the Lyric, will you go but also say will you grow but also never change? Tiny lungs, tiny beating hearts. This mother thing is full of scars. And it's kind of this idea that as a creative, I just constantly want to be left to my own devices to get weird and make it and get excited about the world. But then also I love my kids and I want them to be with me as well. And I'm constantly in this state of juggling of how do I make being a mother and a creative work. And actually I I think part of it is, we need if you are someone that has that creative urge all the time, and you're not great at cleaning, like, we actually have a cleaning, which I know is a real privilege, but also is the probably the thing that saves me parenting, because I just otherwise, it's just a disaster. And so I now see my cleaner as part of our company, as an employee, really, and I would keep for all go many things before I let them go. Really, life which is employed, which I know is a real privilege, and not everyone has access to that. But I but what I will say is having someone and speaking to Mira from my bookstore, in a village context, you would have so many other people around to do those kinds of chores and jobs for you that the light the load is lighter. And even I'm not surprised that having a mental health nurse come and sit with you was the thing that helped is really human beings are designed to be in community and with each other. And if you just had someone else with you during those night times, who can just say it's okay, you're doing a great job, and sit down and he's a cuppa, like, not even do anything just be around. I just think some people and I think most of us as humans, we just want connection we want community, which is what we were designed to have and modern lives in our particular Western Australian context, just a really detrimental for our heads and our hearts. And as mothers, you know, like I was speaking to a woman on PBS who was telling me in Ghana, where she grew up. Like she just didn't have any identity loss as a mother because everyone was she had like aunties, uncles, cousins, brothers, Little Kids, Big kids, people were around and everyone's breastfeeding together. And she'd seen women give birth around her for a long time. So it wasn't this like hidden experience. It's same with death. Death is hidden here. But it's not in other cultures. It's a part of everything. You know, like her grandparents were buried in her front garden. You know, it's like that kind of thing, which I'm not suggesting we do. But I guess what I mean is like our humanity, our ability to be present and alive in the world and understand what motherhood really means. It is, shouldn't be something that we wait to experience until we're eight and a half months pregnant. It should be like, we're breastfeeding with 10 other women, and you've seen it happen so much. And if it doesn't work for you, there's another woman there cannot who actually could feed your baby or can tell you, your nipples. We're not it's probably not going to happen to you. Let's get you some formula. You'll be fine. You know? Exactly. Yeah. Normalizing that experience. Yeah. Oh, yeah. When you're talking about the breastfeeding before, that was something that my first child that I was just like, I have to do this. I remember sitting at the table, my kitchen table, and my mom was there. And I was just in tears, because I couldn't get this kid to attach properly. And I pushed through eventually things got better. And I fed him for a long time. But it was like I had this, this ridiculous, controlling thing that I had to do it. And my husband was like, Oh, do you want me to just go get some formula. I was like, No, don't get the formula. I'm doing it. Like it was just irrational, basically. So then, with my second one, one of my things was like, if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't doesn't matter if he has formula, you know, 30 is best that was the thing I was telling myself not breast is best Fed is best doesn't matter how you baby gets fed. And just by a stroke of luck, I suppose not lucky for him. But when he was born, he was very, very small. And he was born by like, emergency severe. And so that's where sort of all all the started. So he was in one of those little humidity crib things, which I've been calling a hot box for a long time, but it actually has a name that I just referred to the baby in the Hotbox. So because he was in there, and he was away from me a bit. They just gave him formula. And I was like, this is fantastic. That's out of my hands. Now I haven't made this decision, you know, the pressures off me. It was just wonderful. You know, like, it was bad that he was in there. But you know what I mean? It was just the best thing that happened to me like, he couldn't live without me. Yeah, and that means that you can get some sleep. And if you're someone that does need a lot of sleep and you're not enjoying breastfeeding, or it's hard or you don't have enough milk or a million other things, some women who take medication they need to have means they can't breastfeed. Some women have had mastectomy is like there's just like a million different reasons why you might not need you might not be able to breastfeed. And it's just not that big a deal. And obviously in an ideal world, like there are lots and lots of benefits to breastfeeding. I'm not saying there aren't there are heaps and if it had worked for me, that would have been wonderful, but this idea that somehow we need to guilt mothers about it and be so hard and I said I think that paste, I'm so passionate about women being kind to themselves in. Because I think that's where so much of this stat is. And it's not an accident because culture is hard on us, then we are so hard on ourselves. And then we compare and think about what it should be. And if my friend can't breastfeed, but that's fine for her. But no, no, no, I must have these ridiculously high standards for myself. And I think also, something I write about in my songs self. So one of the lines that song talks about, I think birth trauma, which is what I experienced, and I'm assuming you had some deaths from the to from your story. So part of is that and actually one in three women, I think the statistic in Australia at the moment experience birth trauma form, which is a giant. Yeah, and it speaks into like, then the mental health outcomes for that flow on from there. And there's lots of reasons as to why that might be the case. And part of it is the system. There's lots of things that are broken. But that song self talks about that. The first line is a woman at the start broken open now thinking that shields fail, you can hold your own damn self, your self can still prevail. I remember being told it won't hurt. Miracle can push through the pain, but I'm bleeding, just try harder. And you should be better at it all. Here, take take all this shame. And to me that feeling of shame, and failure, and you should be better, why can't you do it was at the crux of so much that I struggled with in those early days of motherhood and it wasn't just what I was putting on myself. It was the culture that I gave birth in and then some of the midwives and the doctors that I came up against who was so dismissive of me and my needs and judgmental when I couldn't make what I thought you know, what I thought was gonna happen happen with the breastfeeding piece I just think there's there's just so much room for so much compassion, knowledge and education around all of it. And love I think we need to put love back in okay occasion this love this that's a really good point. And when you were talking about that judgment of, of medical professionals, like, this kindness, this compassion, like, it's like, I know they deliver babies every day, like they've done millions of them, whatever. But in that moment, you need a person that's gonna have your back and gonna support you like, I Sorry, I'm gonna get emotional but when the worst the thing that really now this isn't my podcast, this is your episode. But when when we arrived at a hospital to have Digby, the second one, the midwife that greeted us her first words to us, what are your late you were told to be here for an early induction. Why? Why weren't you here? And it's like, I just I almost burst into tears right then, because I have this thing. Just before like, the few days before I have a baby. I get really anxious. Like, oh my God, my life is gonna change. Oh my god, how's this gonna get out of me? Like all those big things. And on the way in the car, I was just so anxious, like both my boys have been induced. So I knew it was coming. You know, I had this time to build myself up into this frenzy of anxiousness. So when she said that I was just like, oh my god, really? Like I'm already feeling so vulnerable. And so yeah, vulnerable and she just spiked bang. And then she just kept going. It was like, Oh, he's in there waiting for you. It was like, Oh, my God, like, seriously, you're going to speak to me like this. Like I started I got really like, we're I was really upset. But I sort of tried to hold it together. And then she said something else about she wanted a a urine sample. And she just handed me the thing and just points that one just goes going there. I was like, oh my god, seriously, like it was just, I sat on the toilet and I burst into tears. And I just thought that she's not going to do this, like this is not okay. And I went back out there and I thought, okay, I can either tell her as I want a new midwife or I can just try and make peace with this woman, whatever's happened in her morning like she's bringing this to us. You know, it's obviously, you know, things aren't going well for this lady. So I basically walked out there and I put my hand on her shoulder and I said, Look, can we just start again? place. And she just took a massive sigh and she just sort of went like this. Like if she realized I think what she what she'd been doing. And she was totally different from that point. Apart from pride at the end, where we went for the urgency Cesar and she went and stood next to the wall like I can literally see an hour I'm pointing it was at the wall stood at the side of the wall with a back to the wall and just left me to it. And I was so afraid. And so like, because they'd already stuffed up my epidural. So I could still feel my contractions on one side of my body, he put it up too high. And so my at one point, my lungs, like my breathing was compromised. All these sort of, you know, stuff was happening. So I didn't trust that they were going to get this beat, right? Like I was in fear that I was going to feel everything that was my biggest fear. And so they were like, holding like a bag of ice on me. Can you feel that? And I said, I can feel the pressure, like Piglet, but can you feel cold? Like they were like, not attacking me, but they were like, Can you feel that sort of thing? It's like, but I can I can feel you touching me am I supposed to feel that, you know, I was there using their medical terms. And I'm using my like, and I can feel you touching me. So I was just in total fear. And thank God, this beautiful, amazing theater nurse came over and she held my hand and she stroked my head and she said, I know you're scared, it's going to be okay, we're all here to help you. And I burst into tears because like thank god, somebody cares for me sort of thing. You know, it was, again, maybe they've got themes of abandonment and stuff going on. But somehow I needed someone to help me. And she was amazing. And that entire that entire Severian I could obviously feel them pulling and whatever. But I laid there in fear because any second now I thought, I'm going to feel something really painful. Like I was just so afraid. Plus officer I was afraid for my child because he's, you know, he had to be gotten out quickly. Yeah, just this this kindness, kindness and compassion. And even you know, people mean well, but like, in my sister and I both talked about this, like nurses that had come in to help you breastfeed or whatever. What are you doing that for here? Or what's wrong here? What's wrong today, but just the language they use? I was in tears at some point because some woman just looked at me and said, What's the matter with you today? And I was like, Whoa, like just sent me off. Like, you know, you're so vulnerable when you read the you know, you feel like every nerve endings exposed and everything is going to set you off and then someone says something so off the cuff and they don't mean anything by it. But you just lose it. It's like they don't know that you know, they don't see that they're everything they do has an impact on us at that time. So yeah, compassion love caring after all, oh, sorry. Sorry for that experience. And I hope you leave the scene because I owe more stories that we can share my tears now. I know it's hard on it tell you that shame isn't your to hold your body this way let it sink in. Beautiful. They may see your beautiful, wonderful you're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom. I will certainly do you know what I know now having spoken to a lot of women in this space, and there's a podcast episode I did with a friend of mine, Kim Beale, who's a woman client physio, and she does birth preparation and lots of things. She said one of the number one things to indicate that you're going to have a good birth is feeling safe. Because when you think about a cat, they will go under the house in a really dark warm spot. It's really enclosed. It's very quiet, in order for your body to do the things that it actually needs to do and it naturally should do. You need to feel so safe and your body needs to know that you're safe. It's not even just your mind. It's your body as an entity needs to breathe that safety and that calmness. And it's so fragile and precarious. So if you have a person like I had a woman when I went into labor and I started singing into the pain, I was told to shut up get back on the bed, you'll exhaust you Stop making that noise. Oh my god. Yeah. And I now know that singing into contractions. If you're a music person, or just anyone that has that vibration is perfect. It's perfect for opening new opening your cervix allowing for you did give the and I just think that even just that interruption let alone how that woman spoke to you and I had other interactions with her, of course your body when you're already anxious, and then your body is supposed to open. Of course things are gonna go right not to mention intervention and sometimes intervention is necessary. But there's so much research showing that if you intervene early, then things are more likely to be more painful, like with inductions and things I was induced to. And things just cascade and having that power and the knowledge that you need to set up this birth space for you. In however that looks however weird, you might think it is particularly as a creative being. Like I think about what I like and need when I'm making music. When I'm in my zone. I didn't think about my birth like that. I thought about it like a medical procedure, when actually I needed some weird and wonderful dark space with like insane music and candles and like, really cool witchy women in with me. So I could sing my way through it, you know, and it happened with my daughter. But by that point, I'd had such a sort of difficult birth injury for my son, that I had a planned cesarean with her because I just couldn't envision having lifelong or worse injuries and I already had with him. And in hindsight now I kind of wish that I had been able to have a birth where I felt I could sing her into the world. And it still breaks my heart. Because she's a singer she already singing. As a three year old, my son is so creative too. And I I get so sad thinking that I could have sung her into the hook her very first sign of life was this vibration. And I also think that's not my fault. And it's not something that I'm just I'm sad about. And I think it's important to acknowledge you can feel sad, but not beat yourself up about it. You're stuck in a system that isn't designed for you. And so I'm sorry, that experience happened to you too. So sorry. And I also feel like for other women going forward for my daughter, I'm just so passionate that she can find if she decides to have kids. If my little boy decides to have kids like that they've got all this knowledge they're armed with so that it may not go the way you plan in Him there will say that in that tonight's episode, like it may still go awry, you may still end up with an emergency subject to them. But if you've got this kind of birth map, where you know from the outset, right, when I get in there, these are the people that are going to be there, I know them and they know me, they care about me. That's a big one. They really care about me, whoever they are whoever they look like, if they're a midwife, I've known for years for my pregnancy, if they're a friend who's also human birth, who's going to make me feel safe. But then if things go wrong, these are all the different things that will happen. Because then if you feel in control and educated, you're less likely I was terrified to go I had surgery afterwards. And that fear of you just not trusting that they will do the right thing. And that's smart, because they hadn't didn't do the right. They stuffed up your you know, Fe juror which happened to a friend of mine to hers fell out of her back. And no one believed her. They said we put it in you can't be feeling anything, you know, like that. There's also inherent misogyny in the system that stems from that Christian Christianity really and that idea that Eve was cursed in childbirth. And so from that point on, you can see that in the medical profession, that women's pain overall is just less acknowledged less believed. The babies as well for my son's reflux. It took me six months to get a diagnosis. They just don't believe you weird, a particular and they think like endometriosis, all of these different conditions. I speak to another naturopath called Freya, Lola, about endo and chronic stress and hormones. I'm just so passionate that women get as much information not only about their birth, but also about menopause. How we go through our birth will affect how we menopause, about how we integrate our hormones, about the changes in our bodies and how our hormones fluctuate how to care for and eat better. So that when we do have these hormonal changes when we enter perimenopause, which I didn't even know it feedback. So that we write that we know why we feel rage, why we feel exhaustion, why we feel brain fog and how to eat and exercise around those things. And part of it is bringing our stress levels down, thinking about what our life looks like, and whether it's actually sustainable in its current form. It's there's so much care and knowledge that needs to be put back in that we used to have that's been taken from us. Even talking about periods and all that stuff without shame. Like, I just think it's just so important. And I think podcasting is a great medium for that, too, during having these discussions, because, and having like, What are you talking about your birth like that? I'm so hopeful there's someone listening to these studies and midwife or a doctor or an obstetrician or someone in the hospital setting, because I have found that with telling my story and my songs now that I do, and I did a live show over the weekend, where I did the same thing. Because so many of the women I've met since who are midwives on maternal health nurses have said to me, yes, I can imagine exactly who that woman was that Pat said that to you. I've met her I've met someone like her. But also, it's a great reminder for us, because we are just ticking boxes, we're going through the motions, we're exhausted, we're tired, we're underfunded and devalued. And so like that woman you met, you've had her she's lived her whole life before she's got there. And so being reminded that for each woman that comes in this is life or death, for her that view, it might be the seventh woman you've seen for the day, and how precarious and fragile, and in need of love and care we are in those spaces and, and allowing us to bring the love of the people in our lives, if we're lucky enough to have them into that room, or at least the people that we'd like to be there and not just thinking it's a purely medical thing. Because I think that would have made a difference. And at So, anyway, gosh, how did we get to here? But no, I have got a couple of medical people that listen. And there's one midwife in particular, who often will message me after some episodes, and be like, suggest, they'll suggest the name of maybe the doctor that I talked about, or someone they know, like, we're anywhere relatively smallish. I mean, we're not a small town, but we're a small regional center. So most people know who people are. So you know, if you're listening, Yvonne Hi. Hello. And I will say as well, through this work I've been doing taking this album around the kind of like that. So So for example, on Sunday, at the Wesleyan, there was this old pub, it was it used to be a church, and they've made this kind of bandroom we had candles everywhere. And all these women came it was so incredible. And just like midwives and maternal health nurses, women who are physios and women who are interested in birth, women who are just moms who've, like had a rough trot or just brought their mother's group along. And then there were couples that came in. We had Lauren Beatty, who's a psychologist who now runs these sessions called maternal journal, which are bringing mothers into circle to journal and make basically a very experiences. And so she spoke about the treatments. And then I played my story and my songs. And we all crying, it was like a pack sold out roots. So completely happened. Still wild to me. But just the feeling that people kept said to me afterwards, I feel lighter, I feel seen, I feel connected. I feel like so many other women in my life are going through something that I didn't know that well, their birth story, they told me in a kind of funny way, but now I actually understand how traumatic it was for them. And I noticed when the show finished, rather than people leaving, they all sat for ages having a glass of wine, just like laughing and talking. Yeah, that's that. That's really I mean, starting to do regional shows now because I do think women in regional areas, from what I've heard from you too much more isolated in lots of ways. And I did did one in yackandandah. And when in my whaler recently, I'm doing another one in ships. And I'm just really passionate now about taking the show on the road. going make women cry all over the country. All alone out. There but really, it's that meeting of all of the professionals in the space and the women who have cared for them, by them kind of connecting and bringing empathy back in and understanding. Can you come down here plates? genuinely love? Yes, seriously? Seriously? They will be. We have to talk about that after. Totally. I'm actually planning a show in Newcastle. And I'm thinking about going to the Northern Rivers, planning little adventures. I'm actually also been invited to go to the UK would leave it in Chile, so no oh my god for two weeks. I'm going over there with Amy Taylor to bad season. Oh, yeah. I know, she reminded me I know. You're gonna go play music to women in the UK and Ireland, and Scotland. And just for two weeks, I'm taking my music producers EQs 30 is like big burly biker tats. He's like, gonna play music with me. And he's a lot of fun. So very special. But yeah, let's talk. I would love that. Yes. Now, I've just realized that I haven't asked you about your children. Here are kids. I have to one of these three, my daughter and then my son is eight. He'll be eight in October. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So I think coming to England, are you having a child, I'm going on my own. So I talked about lucky. He's amazing. And also, we just co parented from the very beginning, we have lucky like that we both worked from home in the company together. So he's probably a better parent means always. He's much more routines and like, he's great. So I'm very, very lucky to have that. And also family support to so yeah. A long time need to be away. But how and how are you feeling about that? But one of the topics that and I'm not wondering, like leading you into this to say that you have to feel this way. But I'm just linking it together, that we have, we have this thing called mum guilt in our society, unfortunately. Are you feeling you know, apprehensive about going or leaving them? Because you're going to do something that doesn't involve them? Or you'd like, Yes, I'm going, Okay, this people put up here, we're going to turn the podcast off. Once I save you know, that guilty in the beam. In the beam, I have huge amounts of guilt about a lot of things over time I was raised Catholic, it's part of it, the guilty, giant, giant guilt. And so but what happened to me over the past couple of years speaking to a woman after woman person after person was I started to hear this guilt month or guilt being like of the wanting to be with them, but wanting to be a way that this mother thing some speaks into this constant struggle. And I just realized, I ran hard at this creative project last year, for the first time in my life, I prioritize my work over my husband's, I prioritized it over a lot of other admin things and cleaning, and I just threw myself into it with as much gusto as I possibly could. Partly to save myself, I think because I was at such a low point, that was the thing that brought me back into myself. And what I've realized is, I thought, my kids would a suffer hate me, I'm the worst parent, everyone's gonna think I'm a terrible mother, all of this stuff. And that was my greatest fear in doing that. And so I didn't do it for a very long time. But what was kind of interesting about throwing myself into this work and creating something I'm so proud of is that, like, my son started drawing me for the first time, he usually draws like Pokemon transformers, and sometimes he's dead. And it's dead. There I am. Front and center in his drawings is a big heart on my chest with me standing on a stage. And he sees me as a person, not only as his mum, which is a really special thing. I know. Also, I'm privileged to have a partner who is on board, and I trust completely with all of it. That part of doing that was also writing down the list of everything I was doing for the mental load. So there's been a lot of layers, but it didn't happen overnight. The guilt in the beginning, like a lifelong process, will probably backstory, who knows, but I sat down with him. And I wrote down everything that I did in our lives, like I did the admin for our company, I facilitated so much of his creative work. Plus all the kids stuff. I wrote it down from the get go in my new detail, for example, uniforms. What size are they where to buy them from? How much are they? How many pairs? Like, yeah, he did the same. And I thought maybe it would be when we looked in. It was so powerful to see though that because he thought it was equal really, he's a one he's so aware and maybe that he could finally see all of the things and now I don't micromanage anything anymore. He takes on board like so many things. And I it's not a boss employee relationship. It's a Boss Boss. So he'll be like the vaccination did you I booked the GP appointment or the kids, this person's going to a party and I bought the present, I'm going to drive them, it's on Sunday at 10 o'clock. Like, that enabled me to fully expand into this credit project. And so the mother guilt thing, I just don't think serves us, I just don't think guilt is a is a helpful emotion. I think rage is, I think love is I think empathy is I think compassion is I think being critical, in a way, particularly in your art are like self critical. But in a way that's like I would call it as when I was a primary school teacher, being a critical friend, you know, like being real with yourself about like, what you could improve on. But the guilt thing doesn't help anyone. So I'm still going to do it anyway. So or what am I going to do spend the whole time feeling bad about the fact that I'm enjoying myself, like, get in the bin, that it would say, I love these, this idea of tempering joy, and I grew up doing this a lot that like I can enjoy this too much. Because something bad will happen? Or what if this happens, or like seeing your kids asleep? And you're like, Oh, this is beautiful. What if they die? You know, like, Oh, I do like to fail them? You know, like, yeah, we tempering our joy, but it doesn't actually change the outcome. So now I'm trying as best I can mangle in the been fully running towards the creative project that I get to do feeling bloody lucky and privileged that I'm getting to make it knowing that I think it's important to me as a human, for my kids and for my daughter to see me making and doing and being a full happy person. And oh, well if they go to school and their uniform labels peeling a bit. And I know they've had to forage around the back of the cupboard for some biscuits put in their lunchbox, so be it. Yeah, oh, yeah. Absolutely. That's it, isn't it. And that this whole, I don't know that what we're trying to do, of breaking that cycle and changing this patriarchal society and all these things we've talked about with health care and mental wellness and things like it has to start somewhere. And if we keep showing their kids, that what we're doing is okay, and acceptable, then they'll just keep doing it in their next generation. So we have to make the changes, and we have to let the kids see the changes. Because kids will do much more of what they see than what you tell them and what you want. And when I've had my daughter, especially but for my son, just the same. What I want him to be is a person that isn't always happy because no one's happy all the time. But is content finds work that feels the map is purposeful, that has meaningful relationships that is kind to themselves, that notices the world and is curious about the world that understand their place in things and feels connected. And for them to be that I need to be that. And I'm not going to be that by obsessing over whether or not I've mopped the floors every day and how perfect my hair looks and whether my kids are perfect. Like I have a friend who I text MSC cupboards to. And I love that. That's good. Friends you miss, find them over when your house is a disaster zone, not when you've spent like an hour being sweaty and crying, fixing it. So perfect. So when they arrived, you're like, Oh, this is the, you know, like, and obviously I still do that too, because I carry a lot of shame around making things clean and having that organized stuff. But I think that's the real stuff. That's connection. That's what heals us. That's what makes us whole and that will make our kids whole let me tell you, they're not going to remember how perfect your house was. But they will remember how they made how you made them feel. And what they see do in the world. Yes, so well said absolutely. Yeah. Love that. Oh, do you feel like I'm gonna shake myself down? You know, we need things and you're like yeah, that's actually that's that's a real appeal. That's what I didn't get on the show. And like ducks do and honestly, you just have to shake off that shake up all the stories and the emotion like genuinely that's why we should do it more. Oh, yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah, like there's a sock on Play School about shaky sillies out and like you let's we got to get it out of here. So then you could sit down because actually, that's fine yoga, they do all the assignments and then you sit down and meditate afterwards. It's like you've got all the movement. Yeah, yeah, I totally I think so much of healing is movement. And often now I've thought to myself, it's body to mind for me anyway. Like talk therapy is great as well and has its place but I think I met committees like getting your body right getting you got health right? Yeah. And that's yeah, that's something else but science is finally catching up with like, you know Western medicines finally realizing that we're naturopaths have been right for so many years love it when the heavens likes me I was thinking about my friends and hate him. When you walk across the room, I couldn't help us. Sad Hello You sad hello what I wanted to mention to you, I've been listening to your our, the matrices album on Spotify, which it's just, it's such a I don't know, it feels so reassuring. And I think from people that have been through this stuff, when you listen to it, it just makes you like you said it makes you feel heard. It makes you feel validated. But there's a couple of tracks that I was really, I thought were pretty cool feature to have. And at the start, you've got this incredible, like, inhale and exhale, and love. Was that like a deliberate thing? Or did you accidentally do that and then decide to leave it in there. Cuz I just love it. Look, I yelled done it now. So why that particular inhale happened when I wrote that song. When I sang, right? What I do is get very still. And I wrote that song in the back room of my singing teachers studio, as by myself. Very rare to get that as a mom, I think, but that's what I needed. It's almost meditative for me. And that song came out in about 20 minutes. I love it. When that happens. It's like, you know that it's meant to be like that don't yeah, it's just yeah, it just pours out of you. Yeah, it's like a creature, I feel. And that particular moment was that was when I record the way I write because I have a voice memo recording, so that I can just capture it all. Sometimes I'll be walking and stuff. And I'll capture that. But I had the voice memo on and if you listen really closely, there's like a feedback speaker as well, kind of making a sound that we then used in the track. And also, there's breath as beat track that runs through it. And yeah, that was from the original the moment when I wrote it. Took this like inhale, exhale, breath to kind of center myself. And then I wanted it left in there. That song was the first one I brought to zekiel Feminine music producer. And he seems on my other staff. And that was a brand new one and written like the day before. And I was like this is what I had. So clearly in my head. I wanted to snare drum run through it. I wanted this to use that breath and use that speaker sound and yeah, so we use the original voice memo, quite a lot of them in the in the album have that original voice memo recording. Wow. Oh, that's awesome. That's so cool. I love that. And the other thing I really liked too, is in one of the tracks free I think it is with this. There's a child counting like bringing in the template is that wonderful kids to either that's my daughter. Yeah. And you know, she was jumping off a bed. That's the same. That's a voice memo. She was jumping off the bed and just counting yourself down and check yourself again again. She's their own biggest, super loud and joyful and I just grabbed my voice memo on my phone and recorded it. And I will say that for anyone who's a songwriter, that voice or an app that Mike's actually really great. Quality is very good. I just like captured it and then I took it to Zeke and was like, I want to add this into free and Saturday. Yeah, yeah. I love that. It's like, oh, no, like, it reminds me of years ago, I went to a training call of training course a local person that was telling people how to run their Instagram accounts. And they said, You've got to keep like, because she did a like a one on one with her. And she said you've got to keep your own account, your private account separate to your singing account. You've got to create a new account just for you. And Kevin, keep you singing one I'm like, but that's me. Like that's who I am. And she's like, No, but that's that's like your business that's you think I'm like, but that's an I didn't do it because she was telling me to take all these things out and change them. It's like, but everything that's in that account is inspiration to me like my children are a massive inspiration to me. And I love that. You've got that crossing over it in your actual music that you're releasing of, of your children. And you're singing like it's literally the two worlds are together. I just love that. I love that. Thank you. That's such a big compliment. I agree with you. I I think people have a lot of opinions about how you should do the things. And I really think for me, that you just have to follow your gut really deeply. And the thing that you know, the most and the best is your lived experience. And when you make art that deep seated place, like and, and you can feel like it's small and very specific and kind of weird. But actually, everyone's their own special, unique brand of weird. And you're more likely to touch people when you're making art from these really specific, close places. And I think that was social media, which is this kind of unfortunate base that we're all in. But connecting. And yeah, I don't have a separate one for you know, it just all leaves in my account. Really, I have someone else that runs one futons pod into decimal, but we don't do much on there. Because really, I just Yeah, I want to make it from that place. And I don't speak too much about my kids. And I don't use their names because I'm also conscious, I want them to choose how they represent themselves when they decide to. But definitely, I wanted to just be to operate my music and my art and the same with my podcast as much. With as much heart and integrity and honesty as I could. Because that's what I needed. Like I really did it selfishly. I think there's a mate and amazing book, Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. Have you read that? No, I haven't. I do love it as a creative. It's just like, I go back to that book, like the Bible every so often, just like her voice just seems out at you. And there's a really great section which talks about Tom Waits and his songwriting, and how he sees songwriting as creatures, which I had never, I've always felt like that and songs following me around. And I just thought everyone had that turned out. No, not the case. They were gonna get drunk and then write songs into their phone in the toilet cubicle. I thought that was I thought that was um, everyone that you know that he she there's a section in there about his creativity and songwriting and he talks to his songs and like, Come on, mate, you gotta get on the bus. Stop mucking around. Anyway. But this particular would be magic is so much great advice for creatives. And one of the things you said is for the love of God, don't make something for everyone else make it for you. And then if other people love it cool, like she's the author of Eat, Pray Love. She said, she wrote that book for her. Turns out lots of other people saw themselves in it. But yeah, that's so that's so the whole album I made. For me, I listened to those songs like friends when I was struggling in different parts of my life, which sounds weird that you might listen to your own music, but on their friends, their friends of mine, I wrote them, because that's what I needed in particular moments. And I seen them in particular moments. When we spent so long making good girls come read through as we wrap that up, we're gonna tear down this k two rounds, because we had this conversation. I can't remember who it was with now, but it was someone to do with music, the music industry, and it's like, it's literally an industry, it is a money making machine. And if you're going to try and get into that, you've got to be prepared to let go of who you are, and what your voice has got to say. Because you're not going to be doing it for yourself, you're going to be doing it for someone else who's trying to make money out of you. So it's like, don't write music for other people. That was literally where we're going. We're going with it. Same thing. Like if someone resonates with what you've written, that's amazing. That's like that connection is incredible. But that's not why you do it. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, um, I guess where I would say too, it's such a privilege and my, my therapist, Jules, who's just this incredibly amazing person and a creative to just says to me, don't put the guilt in the bin. Don't talk about like age, or where you're at or shoulda Coulda, Woulda, all that bullshit, bow down to the altar of the fact that you have the time and resources to make the art you want to make. And I'm at a point in my life. And I'm very privileged to say this, that I can make the music I want because it's completely independently funded. And I can do it how I want and the power of that, I think and at this time in my life as a mom, not a lot of women have that space and time in their life when I'm writing from this particular moment. On this new URL The Parenting phase when the kids are little. And I'd also say to that I couldn't have written this music. When I first had my newborn. I needed enough time to pass. Someone said this. You can't write from trauma you have to write from the scar. And I think that's really valuable advice to. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yes. Because we're going to talk about myself. Now, again, because I haven't done enough of it on your podcast clear that I've been at the very end of an album that I've been working on, for, I'd say almost three years about my posts now depression. And it's only six tracks. But do you think I could do it within you know, any cricket? No, because I think that's the thing you have to, you have to let time go. And also be able to mean, you have a lot of my stuff I've written from the point of view as back in there. And that's really hard to go back into. So sometimes you have to let a lot of time go before you're ready to actually go. Okay, I can go back into this now without make letting myself I'm not going to fall apart. If I think about it. You know what I mean? Yes, I think that's very true. That that I'm saying, Yeah, I can't wait to hear that album. No, neither can I No, it's, it's so different. Like my first album, I made, what 2019. And it's all just very, very under produced. It's like acoustic instruments, there's a couple of upbeat tracks. But this is just like, hardcore. They calling it a duck pop. So it's like, there's a lot going on. And this the tracks run chronologically from when it first came when I first got the post out depression, like couple of days in hospital, up to happy, wonderful land. So the tracks, you know, from the musical standpoint, like through the instrumentation, and the treatment of the songs tell that story too. So I'm really, really happy with with how it's gone. And yeah, it's, it's been a long time, but I don't know it. I think it just had to be that way. You know, things just happen when they happen. And also need to person. Yeah, but I totally agree with you that things got takes time. And really good art and truthful art takes as long as it's gonna take. Yeah, and you want to just feel like you've left nothing on the table? Or yeah, yeah. And that was I'm particularly felt like that with this. Because, I mean, who knows? What, if I'm gonna get another opportunity to, to, you know, have an album come out, you know, you just don't know what life will give you. And I don't know, I'm a little bit conscious to that, you know, because I'm an independent artists that the money's not coming from elsewhere. So it's like, you know, am I being really self indulgent, using, you know, family's money to do this thing. So it's like, I wanted to do give it the best go, it could have, you know, and make all the sounds that I wanted it to make and go back and forth with the producers because they're in Spain and Argentina, the people I'm working with, so Wow, it's like I've, if I'm the sort of person I've been a bit of a people pleaser, sometimes with my music. If someone's had a suggestion, oh, yeah, that sounds fine. And really, inside, I'm going no, I don't like that at all. But I don't want to rock the boat. I don't want to be the person that causes trouble. I want you to like me, you know, that sort of stuff. But with this, I've gone no, I'm paying you to make this. And I don't have to talk to your face to do it. So I'm going to tell you if I don't like something, which I really haven't had to do much off. To be honest, they've been pretty amazing. But yeah, be conscious of, of, you know, you never know when you'll get your last shot at something. That sounds really morbid, but not I'm not talking like a mike die necessarily. I'm just it's like, you know, I'm 40 How old am I? 45. I hope my voice lasts forever. But I mean, I've had to, I've also had two rounds of COVID. So I don't even know. Like I tried to sing yesterday. And it wasn't that great. So I don't know if my voice is actually permanently damaged from you know, COVID pneumonia. COVID. Again, bronchitis for the last six months, like who knows, you know, just in general life. So anyway, sorry, I'm rambling a bit now. But no, you know, it makes so much sense. It absolutely. Isn't the right I can really believe that. And I think I like you know, it's jewelry for the inside of people's mind. So it doesn't matter. No. But also, yes, absolutely. All of it matters. It's the most important thing. And I think that's that that was inescapable talks about that those two things can be absolutely true. That if you're going to make something you make it absolutely the absolute best that you can and and I think as women, particularly we're socialized to not be difficult to want people to like have all of that stuff. But we just need to you need to trust your own instincts in your own gut and go it's not good enough, not good enough. It's not good enough. And I want it to be this I want it to be that this is my vision and and I think blokes have been doing that for a very particular white boy. For a very long time, you know, and I think the more interesting art is coming from that place where you, you don't want to ever think that you've got to the end of it and gone. Just that bit. What if I'd taken that risk? What if I, you know, go back into the work when you think it's done? And you're like, well, it'll probably do No, you'd go back in, you'd go back in and dig a bit deeper. And you and that's what I think I felt at the end of my album that like, however it comes, whatever happens after this point. I know that thing within the introverts life, I decided how you know, and I worked with Zeke, and I was lucky in that he was really amazing to work with. And also could do what I wanted, and I could hear it, but I could tell him, no, that's not what I want. This is what I want and change it and put ego out of it. And yeah, so I was very lucky in that collaborative process. But I think also I just, yeah, like you were saying, you just want to feel like you've given it your absolute best shot. So you're proud of it? Yeah, then you walk with it in the world. It doesn't matter if anyone else likes it or not. You are proud of it. Yeah, that's it is, you know, every inch of it. And you can be like, well, look at this thing. That's amazing that I've done. And then you know, in your heart when it's really as good as you could have made it, you know, yeah. Oh, yeah. And that's the thing, like, too, you know, you're talking about hearing bits and thinking are, you know, I wish I had done that I do that so much with my first album, and to the point where I actually recorded some of the songs with other people, with other producers, and did remixes of them, because I just felt like, and also, it was very rushed. Like, we did it in two weeks. And it was just, I'd never recommend doing that. My mom wouldn't do it again. So I take three, so the next one. But yeah, it's just like, bang, bang, it's got to be done. And it's like, no, there's so much that I listened to and I think, Jesus, I wish I'd said something about that. But then, you know, over time, I have the opportunity to, to re record things, which is also privilege, up through the whisper, laugh. Do I think I need you to let me show you. Want to ask you about when are you going to the UK. So it's just happened a couple of days ago. So I'm going I'm leaving on the 28th of June. I'm going over there for the first of July, most likely for a conference, I'm playing in a conference and then I'm just going to be touring. So I'm currently figuring out how to do that, what venues to go to where to play. I'm going to Exeter there's a group of women down there who are running mothers who make which are these big kind of motherhood, creativity stuff. So going there to do some, a little couple of songs in shows. But really, I'm going on my own same with my music producers at an a&e. And yeah, just putting on shows probably ticketed shows in pubs and that kind of stuff, learning how to do that as I go. But yeah, really super excited about it. And then I actually have a show in Sydney on the 30th of July at the great club in Marrickville. Oh, yes, I know. Alison, who runs it? She used to live in that game. Yeah, yeah. She's pretty awesome seeing it yourself. Wow. Yeah. Well, I sort of I saw that there was women running it. And I thought I want to be involved in that. And I haven't actually been there to the venue. But I've, from what I've seen, it looks really cool. So I've actually got Amy Taylor kebabs. He's going to speak first. So she's doing a speech about my dressing. And then I performed my album. And there's a dancer from Sydney called Aryan Basten, who's also an author that her book on perinatal mental health is coming out this year. And she's written about her experience of postnatal psychosis. But she actually sent me a dance that she'd created to my song self over Instagram. That just blew me away. I didn't know anything about her story. I just saw her dancing. And I saw in her movement that she understood me. She's that's pretty, that's pretty powerful. And so she's going to perform duet with me. So I'm going to sing self, which is that song about breastfeeding and, you know, woman at the start broken open now and that story, so she's going to dance and I'm going to see, Amy will speak and we're going to tell stories. And yeah, so Tickets are available now for that, and that's on the 30th of July. Oh, beautiful. Well, I'll put the link to your website in the show notes. And so people can click on there and see all your goodies. It's a lovely website Who does your drawings of like on your hour? and your little icons and things. My friend, Annabel one. So she's an illustrator from Melbourne. She's a friend of my brothers Actually, she's great. And I had a vision for the image of the front cover, and I do it in pencil. I'm a terrible visual artist. But I had the vision of it. And so she kind of brought it to life. It's lovely. Got the like, the heart is like exposed. It's like, yeah, we'll talk about that a bit about your ID for that front cover. Yeah, so I wanted an image that would capture how I felt when I became a man. And, to me that, it's like having you everything's exposed as like a raw nerve. And also, I think, that idea of an open heart, you are changed. And your heart is now kind of walking around in the world without you sometimes they're at school at your kids. And I wanted to show like, also, like, I'm not wearing any, it's not nude painting, but at the I don't have any like clothes on, you can just see me down to my clavicles with my open heart. It's kind of also reminiscent of sort of biblical art as well. And I got the inspiration to from Florence and the machines album lungs, you know, she has her lungs exposed on her artwork. Yeah, right. Yeah. So but really, I wanted an image that would capture all of it, because I actually when I drew that image, I didn't know I was gonna call it my presence. I didn't know that word. I just was writing what I was feeling. And the songs aren't just about motherhood they're about because of the complexity of being human really, and having big feelings. And so for me, I'm a very deeply feeling person, and my heart is very close to my skin all the time. So that's what I wanted to capture. Yeah, yeah. No, it definitely works. It's Yes, really good. Shoulder to face. So many faces go to places where we get to find books and battles, songs and schemes, somehow left, is there anything else you want to mention before I let you go? A lot today. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. I'll look, I would just like to say if you're a mom listening to this, you're doing a great job, be kind to yourself, give yourself a massive hug, make a cup of tea, put your feet up, if you can. So that I would love to say again, what I would also say is if you want to find me, I'm on Instagram at Claire 20. That's probably where everything lives. My website, Cliff twenty.com Is the other spot where you can find about all my events and ticketing, all of that stuff. And I've got beautiful t shirt designs too. So if you like the artwork, you can t shirt with some of them on there's a moss, which is this Each song has its own symbol. So when you come to my show, I give you a lyrics booklet, like a an old school CD cover that has a artwork for each song. And each one has a symbol. So self has the mark because it's the idea of transformation in the darkness. And moths seek light. And to me that's what motherhood and mothering was, in those times so much time spent in the dark, waiting for the light to come. And I was transforming and I didn't realize so that's that kind of I have a T shirt with the math on it for that reason. Really powerful symbol. Lots of things to do with the moon as well, really. So yeah, you can find me over there. I have records as well. I would also say my podcast tons. The new season will be coming out later in the year. But I've got three seasons worth of really rich discussion with women and diverse voices about lots of topics. If you're particularly interested in chronic stress and hormones and you're feeling depleted, gone find that episode with fryer will tell you you won't regret it. It's the story of how I healed outside of music. Everything I did from food and medication and looking at diet and testing and just lots of things that helped me recover from long COVID symptoms. Yeah, that's a really valuable one. And, and yeah, come to a show and if you want me to come play in your area, I bloody love to I'm looking for places to come and bring the music so if you're someone out there that thinks your group of parents or women or community would like some music hit me up. Yeah, good on you. Oh, look. Thank you Claire. It's been so lovely and thank you for spending so much time with me today. We just looked at the clock. Just always made it to Uh, well before my little stuff up in the middle you know what, you know how I fixed the camera? I literally turned the computer off and on and then I started working that's The IT Crowd isn't it? Have you tried turning it off and on? I always joke about that someone made a joke once about if your car wasn't working you just get out shut the door open get back in again. And it should work. It's like a computer we often think that human beings are the same sometimes you just need to turn ourselves off face it yeah right yeah that's what people who do me a favor just go radical rest. I'm really all about that. Reading on Nast. Oh, just bloody. Yeah, so much can be solved in life with a bit more rest. I know that's a privilege but I also think some of the things we do we do out of obligation and guilt checking in the bean and have a nap. Yes, there you go. Chuck it in the bin. That's that's the theme of this show today chuck in the thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum

Dr Melanie Cooper Australian mixed media visual artist + art historian S1 Ep07 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Dr Melanie Cooper is a visual artist and an art historian from Adelaide South Australia, and a mother of 2. Melanie combines painting + drawing with a mix of knitting, crochet, stitching and rug making techniques. In this episode we chat a lot about art, as Melanie’s expertise in the long 18th Century allows us to delve into the role and treatment of women artists during this era. We also discuss the importance of sharing our experiences as mothers, and the role of judgment in our current society – and how it got there. **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression** Melanie website See the Queen Victoria yarn bomb here Shop art supplies that Melanie uses here Podcast instagram / website Music in this episode used with permission - Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mom, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Dr. Melanie Cooper. Melanie is a visual artist and an art historian from Adelaide, South Australia, and a mother of two. Melanie combines painting and drawing with a mix of knitting, crochet stitching and rug making techniques in her art. In this episode, we chat a lot about art history as Melanie's expertise in the long 18th century, allows us to delve into the role and treatment of artistic women during this era. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression. Thank you for coming on, it's an absolute pleasure to have you. And I'm excited about the different sorts of things that you might be able to share as your role as an art historian, but you're also a visual artist. So let's start with that. Why don't you tell us about your own art practice? My art practice is pretty diverse. I as with my other work as well, I kind of consider myself to be an interdisciplinary artist. So I'm primarily a painter. But I also work across textiles and drawing and, you know, just a lot of a lot of different things I've been making. For as long as I can remember, like, even as a child I was, I've always been making stuff. My work is very personal to me it's very, it's, I guess it's a way for me to articulate things that I find very difficult to communicate verbally or in written language. I'm just kind of really interested in my, I mean, of course, my own experience, but also the spaces in between thoughts and ideas and experience and memory, like, you know, the things that we can't see, I try really hard to not just document experience, and those kinds of things, but also to kind of try and make my own thoughts and feelings visible in some form. So it's kind of it's a way for me to reconcile a whole heap of thinking and a whole heap of experience, but in a way that's really tangible. And so in a lot of ways, it's all about the process. For me, the end, the end point is always a great thing, because people can actually see it, but it's kind of it feels like it's work that's never finished, because I need to keep going. And it's almost ritualistic in a way, I guess, because I'm kind of quite often repeating myself, like, for example, in textiles, I'm using lots of the same sort of stitches. And as I'm doing that, I'm thinking and kind of integrating all of those ideas and thoughts and memories and, you know, and, and responses to place as well, I just kind of draw lots of connections from the outside world and sort of it kind of comes in, and then I sort of spit it back out into some sort of form. I don't I don't really, it's a really, really hard thing to explain. Like, it's just it makes sense to me anyway. And hopefully, when people when people will look at it, hopefully they kind of, you know, bring their own ideas to it as well their own responses, and there's no right or wrong answer. I'm not trying to deliver a precise message. You know, people don't have to have a perfect takeaway from it, as long as they kind of, you know, respond to it in some way. I'm happy. So. And that is the great thing about I think, too, in any of its forms that people will take what they need from I suppose in their own interpretation of what, what they're in their life or what they're going through or anything like that. So you're working with textiles, Melanie, what kind of materials are you working with? So with the with my textiles, this is a little bit confusing for people sometimes I consider that to be part of my painting practice. So I work with textiles in the same way that I mean, I know it's a different material. But the way that I you approach that practice is the same way that I approach my painting with the same ideas and the same motivations and the same kinds of thinking. But I use knitting and crochet. And I also use traditional rug making techniques and just a little bit of stitching as well, but predominantly things like punching, which is punching through a hashing surface with a needle and knitting and crocheting pieces of fabric that I sort of manipulate and stitch down and explore with that kind of material material. Process is a really good way For me to sort of like think through a whole heap of stuff, and I kind of figure it out as I go, I'm very intuitive, I don't really sort of sit down and draw up a plan or anything, I kind of work it out as I go. And product, of course, it's always really important, you know, you, you do want people to engage with something that you're really proud of. And it needs to be aesthetically appealing in some way. Whether whether that's a really positive thing, or you know, something that's a bit more challenging for people, that's cool. But it really is, like, the the, for me the whole, it's the process, you know, it's the end product is really, really important, of course, but the process? I mean, I wouldn't, I don't know that I would do it. If it wasn't for the process, you know, me like, I'm not just making stuff to decorate things. We thought we've got enough decoration. It's more. Yeah, I don't know, it's something that I still need to think about putting into words, because I find it really, really difficult. Yeah, it's kind of the process of experimentation and exploring, and just finding, finding out how far you can push something is really fun and really interesting as well. Yes, I like new techniques and, and working with things in different ways. And that sort of Absolutely. Tell me about your children. So I'm very fortunate to have a son who's almost 18, and a daughter, who is almost 11. So they're quite far apart in age. But they're just incredible. Little humans, you know, with very different different needs at the moment. They're both still at school, obviously. And, you know, they're both doing their own thing. And, you know, I'm, yeah, they're both. They're both very strong personalities. And of course, that comes with its own challenges sometimes, but I'm actually really proud of the relationship that I have with them. Both. Were really good mates. So I think, yeah, I love my children very dearly as all mothers do, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. You say this look seven years between your toy? I've got seven years between my two. Yeah. Some people think, wow, that's huge. And in some ways it is. But in some ways, it's not. Either. It's a funny thing is, Oh, yeah. And it's, I think, I'll be interested to see how they grow as they get older, because my oldest is 12, or 13. And my little ones about to turn six. So at the moment, they have times when they absolutely cannot stand each other. But I think as they get older, and dig becomes out of that little little person stage. They might, I mean, they get on great, don't get me wrong, but things might not be quite as explosive. Do you know, honestly, things can be quite explosive with my kids. And like, that's why I say, you know, they're both very strong personalities. They're both, they're both very, very clever. And they know how to test each other. And they do they, they do get explosive. But the funny thing is as intense as that is, sometimes they also have this really intense love for each other. It's and it's crazy. Like sometimes I'll just walk into a room and I'm like, oh my god, you guys are having a hug right now. What's going on? Is everything okay? Yes, fine. Mom is totally fine. You're sure? Yeah. And it's also because I think they're very different places in their own development. Like they have very, very different needs. Like, you know, Seth, my son, he, at the moment, he just really needs his own space. Sometimes he needs his own privacy and all those sorts of things. Like he's merely an adult. And his little sister likes to kind of walk into his room unannounced and jeans and he's just like, oh, my god, get out. And you know, he's never like, he's just playing a game or something. It's not anything major, but he's just like, leave me alone. And she Yeah, of course, you know, sometimes she just wants to be around her big brother. But and he does it to her too, though. Sometimes she'll be quiet. You know, she'll be sitting on the couch or in her room doing her own thing. And he'll come in and he'll be like, all over and, you know, just in the mood for a joke. And she's like, Oh, no. Yeah, and it all kind of kicks off and I have to Yeah, yeah. It's also really lovely though, when you find them playing, like, you know, when they they take their own initiative to get the ball guy outside and kick her around the backyard together, that kind of stuffs really lovely. Yes. Something good is here. So you said before you've been creating you pretty much your whole life. Has that sort of changed then as you had your children as they came into Your Life, we starting to find that challenge the balance between you and your role as a mother. In different times of my life, definitely. So I can't, I mean, there's a few different things I could say about this sort of stuff. Like, you know, before having kids, I really believed that I needed one full solid day to get something done, you know, I always had this kind of idea that you had to have a full day. And if you didn't have that full day, nine to five kind of idea, whatever those hours were, it really like there's no point. But I've since learned, especially with my second, with Scarlett half an hour, you can actually achieve so much in half an hour. Because sometimes that's all you get. And I mean, it kind of fluctuates, or depending on what's going on with them and where you are, in state, like the stage of their life and stuff. There's been times where I found it incredibly difficult. Like, with my painting practice, for example, I like when I had my son, Seth, I found that really difficult to get back into for a while because I had quite bad postnatal depression. So that kind of was a bit of a block for me for a while. But then after a period of time, I kind of learned when I was sort of working through that I was drawing and things but I kind of went back to knitting, which is something that I've kind of always been doing since I was like about five, but then I sort of realized, you know, this is a really portable medium, and I can just pick it up and put it down, I don't have to go out and studio. So I think that's where it kind of really started becoming this thing that I've incorporated into my practice. And over time, I kind of just kept pushing it more and developing it more. And that's so that's always been there. Like I'm always, you know, carrying around knitting or crochet because it is so portable, and I can't sit on the couch and not do things. So if I have to sit on the couch and nurse a baby or rock a baby to sleep, you know. So like there's, it's there's different ways that you can still be creative, without having to go out into the studio without having to have an entire day. And, you know, try and figure out all the other logistics around that. So I've just, I think I've always sort of looked for ways that I can still fit stuff in. And, you know, like, when they're not sleeping and stuff, that's really good thinking time. So you can use that time in the middle of the night to kind of think about what do I need to do tomorrow, and you start planning and organizing your thoughts. So that when you do have that time, you can just jump straight in, he's not kind of lost, not knowing where to go, what direction to take, or what needs to be done, you can just sort of like jump in and be productive. And I think that's that kind of motivates you and gives you the energy to keep going as well. Yeah, I think that's the thing that that mother who doesn't like I don't want to say adversity, but you know, just the challenges sometimes that you face and the things that you kind of find yourself up against, that you weren't prepared for. I think that's really taught me that yeah, actually, I'm really good at improvising. And, and that's really fun in itself too. Because sometimes you kind of you end up with outcomes you couldn't predict or better outcomes than if you planned and organized everything completely perfectly and down to the last minute. Like, sometimes you just kind of go, you know, do things by the seat of your pants, and you get up the other side of you think, wow, that's actually really great. And that could lead to something else. You know, like, never in a million years would I like when I was painting in art school, I didn't think that I would be you know, knitting in my actual painting practice. I kind of thought that's the thing that I do when I watch TV. And you know, it's not really part of my, my serious art career. But now it definitely is. Yeah, it's it's fun. It's fun. I think you've learned so much from being a mom. Yeah. And having to having to restructure your own thinking and just make things happen. You know, not just sit around waiting for the time, but actually just making that time you have to, otherwise it will never happen. Yeah, the thing for me as well, like, it's almost like a it's a compulsion for me to make like, it always has been even as a kid like, I just always have to make something and it doesn't always have to be like a big finished painting. Sometimes it is just, you know, something with a lump of air dry clay or, you know, a drawing in the mud out in the backyard or something like, I've just always had to do something. And yeah, it's a it's a compulsion, I think. But it's also I was thinking about this the other day, I think it's also about making a space for yourself, like making art or even just making and staff has just always been a way for me to take space for myself, even as a child. You know, and I think that's just become more and more important, as an adult, when you've got more responsibilities and have to divide your time or it becomes more challenging, but then also probably more important to do as an adult. Absolutely. It's like, mental health, you know, and it's, and it's so connected with looking Yeah, looking after yourself. And so, for me, it's very much part of my identity. I think, like, it's, it's not like, the job, the great job that I've got that I go to, and I'll retire from one day, so something that I think is always has always been a part of who I am. Definitely isn't. Yeah, it's one day, you just get to hang it up and go, right i that's finished now. I'm retired. What do I do? Exactly? Exactly. Yes. It's, sometimes it would be nice to sort of like bundle it up and pack it away. But it's no, that's not an option. I don't think. Wanted to ask you just you talked about your painting, how you never thought that your meeting would become part of you the way I think you said you serious art practice? How did how did it become part? Did you one day just decide to combine it like how did it physically happen? Um, it's a very, it's a very good question. So when I was in art school, I, I realized that I detested oil painting, and I. And so I couldn't do live painting anymore. And I wasn't really interested in that anyway. And so I dropped out of that subject. And I had to do another elective and sort of make that as like a, not just an elective subject, but like a major subject, and it was rug making. And I was like, Wow, this sounds really cool. And it's using wool. Awesome, I'll do that. So I learned some techniques. And, you know, just kind of played with that for a bit and then put it away. And when I thought, I just kind of, I kind of just stuffed around with it a bit and picked it up, put it down, and just put it played with those ideas for a while. And I kind of experimented without really taking it very seriously. And then, you know, fast forward a couple of years, I became a member of a studio here in Adelaide called voting booth studios. And I shared that space with several other artists. And at the time, I think there was 12 artists, but I had brought all my things from my old studio into the space and was unpacking stuff and messing around with things and just having a look at what I had. And one of the things that I had was a half finished, rogue or wallhanging, I wasn't really sure what to call it at the time. I pulled it out as looking at it. And one of my friends looked at it and said, Oh, what's this, and I was just this thing that I've just been playing with. And he's kind of like, oh, that's, that's kind of really cool. Maybe you should think about finishing it. I was really, okay. And, you know, I just wasn't at that time, I just wasn't really sure what I was doing. Because, you know, a whole heap of other stuff had just happened. And I was coming through a difficult place. But I just kind of thought, you know, this is an easy thing to pick up and just go on with, I'll maybe I'll figure out what I'm doing next. So I just kind of kept working on this thing. And then it became a finished piece. And I was like, wow. And there was just this one little engineer alpha, I don't really know what to do on this end bit. And I was mucking around with some knitting at home. And I just kind of something told me or compelled me to put that piece of knitted fabric onto the rug, and just see what it looks like. And so I was just like, wow, this is another way of combining surfaces and textures and different techniques, and actually really kind of like what's happening. And so that's what I started doing there. I sort of started messing around with it. And I was really excited by what I had discovered. And so I just kind of thought, what can I do next. And so I started making lengths of knitted fabric and started stuffing about with it in the next pieces and just kind of exploded from there. And I kind of realized, well, I can actually use knitting in the same way that I do. You know, brush strokes and different ways of applying paint, I can actually just make the paint and manipulate it and stitch it down or do something with it. And yeah, the more I do it, the more I do the more ideas or come up with and sometimes my head is just like swimming with ideas. I get really anxious because I don't know if I'm gonna get time to do it all because, you know, that's the exciting thing about knitting, sewing, and especially crochet too. It's only a couple of stitches. But the different ways that you can combine those stitches with different materials and different ways of like different combinations, you end up with so many different kinds of results. So it's exciting. And yeah, it just kind of it just kind of unraveled. And, like a very natural process. It just kind of kept expanding. From there. Yeah, really, that's really awesome story. And I think that's the thing about, that's the thing that I'm really grateful for being in that studio at that time. Because, you know, if it hadn't have been for someone walking past and looking at and going, yeah, that's pretty cool. Maybe you should see what happens if you finish it. Like just that little bit of encouragement from a friend, it was like, Yeah, okay, maybe this is worth thinking about. And, you know, the same friend was really amazing, too. I credit him with encouraging me when I had my exhibition, my first solo after that, will not my first solo but my first solo for a number of years, he sort of said to me, you know, the back is the back of that piece is really cool. Maybe you should think about hanging it so people can see the back as well. And that's, that was another really important part of developing my practice as well. He sounds like a pretty useful bloke to have around. I think, yeah, he's he's very generous person. And I think that's also one of the virtues and one of the great advantages of being in a studio with other people working around you. Because sometimes, you can give each other that sort of feedback, or, you know, just the comment of someone walking past is enough to make you think twice about, yeah, actually, maybe I won't throw that in the bin, you know, maybe that is worth spending some more time on. And that's been that's been incredibly valuable to me. So I'm very, I'll always be grateful for that. So you've done also yarn bombing, create, whatever, you're gonna make your knitting or crocheting, and then you go and put it out on structures in the town, or in the city? Yes, yes, I have. And I've had a lot of fun doing that, with a group of friends. We haven't done anything for a while, that tried to make something happen just after COVID. But it kind of fell through. That's a whole other story. But yeah, that's something that I got an enormous kick out of, I have to say, because it's different. It's a bit different now. But originally, the idea was, you make something and you attach it to a public structure somewhere, but you have to do it without being caught and without anyone seeing you because it's kind of illegal. So it's kind of like, yeah, hardcore ladies hit the town. You know, so much fun. The first time the first tag I ever did was just like, this crochet length of bright blue fabric, kind of like a scarf. And I went down one of the alleyways, just for Rundle Street, and my heart was beating. So it's in the middle of the day, and I was like, whipped it on around this pole, stitching it as fast as I could. And my heart was beating so loud, it was roaring you might use skipped off down the street afterwards on such a high. It was just, it was just this simple little band of blue, but it was like yes, I have done this really cool. Outlaw thing. Yeah, that was enormously fun. And then after that, we're just, you know, I kind of need some bow ties, and I attach these bow ties on to, you know, sculptures of people's heads and stuff down North terrorists and things and in the Botanic Gardens. But the really the really cool thing was, many years ago, I can't remember exactly what year it was. But there was this sort of like a street art festival thing that was happening. A former student of mine, Peter Drew, who's now done lots of lots and lots of other things. He was organizing groups of people to paint and, you know, sort of decorate, mini skips. And so I can't I can't remember exactly where I found out about it. I think it might have been a Facebook page or something like that. There was an idea to cover it with knitting like the st. yarn bombing stuff. So I kind of just went on my own. I had no idea I didn't had I didn't know anyone who was going to this thing. I just happened to meet this bunch of gorgeous women. Very different ages, very different backgrounds, and they're all just making these squares to cover this dumpster. It was so much fun and we just got along so well and so we kind of over a period of time. found ourselves in a group that we decided to call a play on the sly. It was enormous fun. We've done so many projects we did. You know, there was a festival coId called, boy you street art festival. There was a whole exhibition in the Festival Theatre. There are a couple of bank sees and other bits and pieces in there and we were asked to cover, I think are called the Mellie tree poles outside. That's like an installation. I'm not sure if it's still there. But we covered these big long poles with, you know, different lengths of fabric and attached insects and flowers and stuff to it. That was so much fun. But one of my favorite projects was a nano nano reckless Julie Collins and I went made a dress for the statue of Queen Victoria. And we had it installed by the Adelaide City Council at like, two o'clock in the morning. They had, they had cherry pickers and council workers attaching this big knitted dress with cable ties to the statue of Queen Victoria. And it was it was so much fun. And it was part like it was around Christmas time. So it was when the whole square was decorated with different things. And just going along, to see that in the middle of the day. And seeing all these people walking past it stopping looking and taking photos of this thing that you'd made. It was just so much fun, because, you know, you're just sort of like sitting there watching everybody else getting so much joy out of this thing that we just did. Yeah, it was it was it was a lot of fun. It was so much fun. Yeah, we did a lot of stuff like that. We've done stuff for Matthew Flinders and Douglas Mawson, one of my friends met him at balaclava. We've done things for the Robert Burns statue at the front of the State Library. Yeah, things like that. There's been lots of stuff that the group has done, and it's just been wonderful. Yes, we haven't doing that. We're still within the group doing stuff now. Um, well, we were going to do a project for Christmas last year, back in November. And I didn't know how to say in a short way, because I don't want to sort of I don't want to sound negative. But we were asked to do a project. And then the street that we were asked to do it on. People on the the people in the street like the business owners decided no, we don't want that. And that was really, that was really sad. And I found that really upsetting because for some of the people in the group that hadn't actually been able to work on anything, as a group or for themselves for a long time, there was a one mom in there, I know that she was, you know, it was really important to her to get together and to do this thing, because she hadn't done anything for herself for a really long time. And so all of a sudden, we had this thing that was really exciting. And we were we were so excited about getting back together and doing something and it was just taken away because of mismanagement and miscommunication. You know, like the person who was organizing the thing and had asked us to do it hadn't spoken to the business owners properly. So all of a sudden, she just sort of like sent me an email one day and said, You know what, sorry, they just don't want you here anymore. And it was devastating. Actually. It was really, it was really sad. Like, I was fine with it, because I had my own stuff to go with. But as I was saying some of some of the group members hadn't hadn't been doing their own thing for a long time. And it was very important to them that we were doing it. And yeah, all of a sudden, it just wasn't there. So yeah, we do we need to get back together and do something because I think, you know, we just had so much fun together. There's no reason that we haven't done anything for a while. I think it's just like the whole COVID thing and people being busy and life getting in the way. So I think yeah, we just we just need to do it. We just, we just really need to Yeah, you know, put a date in the diary and get together and do it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's so much fun. And we do we all work together so well. We just have very different lives in very different directions. And I think that's that's the only thing that kind of makes it a bit tricky sometimes. Yeah, yeah. When you were talking about when you put your pieces up, and then you see people their reaction to that. I get so much joy and I it almost it always makes me feel like a little child even reminds me of like Easter time when when I was a kid and you'd be looking for your Easter eggs and you find them hidden in the garden and that amazing feeling of finding things. That's how I feel when I see people's creations all around the place. I just love it. It's such a beautiful I love it too, because you, I think the reason that I love it so much is because, you know, it is that generosity and that sharing and the joy. But it's also like, it kind of feels a little bit naughty or a little bit not naughty, but like a little bit. You know, people, people being creative outside of the prescribed conventional spaces of institutions and galleries and high end things, it's kind of making things accessible. And it's also like the random accidental thing of finding stuff as well as it's kind of, you know, I'm gonna make this thing and I'm going to put it out there because I can, I'm not going to ask anybody's permission to do it, not going to apply to do it. I'm just going to do it. And I love I love that. It's so it's so much fun. And it's, you know, of course, it's always with the best intentions, but it's also a little bit, you know, it's very empowering actually think it's really empowering. I know it is for me. Yeah, I think it's incredibly generous to because you're not, you're not creating it with any sort of expectation of, I mean, you aren't getting something back. But like, you know, it's not a monetary gain, you're doing it because you love it. And because you know, you're going to bring joy to paper, I think that's just beautiful. I wanted to utilize your expertise as an art historian throughout this discussion, could you just let us know first what the era or the period that you are really drawn to with your art history. So my area of expertise is the 18th century. So that's, that's what I know most, the deepest part of my knowledge and research has always has been the 18th century. Insane. I'm really fascinated and have a really solid understanding of the 20th century as well, because I've studied that in depth too. But also, of course, I'm interested in contemporary art, art of the art that is being made now and the very recent past to and I'm kind of, I don't know, I think researchers, like artists, they develop their interests and their ideas in lots of different directions at the moment and kind of looking more things like iconoclasm as well, which kind of stretches across all periods really iconoclasm for for those who don't know, is the destruction or accidental or intentional of artworks, or buildings and monuments and things like that, too. Yeah. So what drew you to that? It's the 1700s, isn't it? If it's the 18th century, so how it works? Yeah. No, that's cool. And to make things even more confusing, people have different definitions around time periods as well, that so for, for the 18th century, we used to say, oh, you know, that's 1700 to 1800. But the truth is, most people now call it like, referred to that period as the long 18th century. So it's sort of like, T straddles the late 70s, sort of like 1685 1690, through to about 1820. And people kind of debate those precise use, but it does kind of overlap, centuries, either side is 70. Is that because of the work? Was it was the era of that art in that time? Or is that just how historians talk about time periods? It's more around world events and things like that as well. It's not it's not a facade. I mean, the hard thing with art history, whatever period you're looking at, it's, we kind of like to think in nice sort of compartmentalized boxes with nice start and finish points. But the truth is, is that things just overlap. And, and there's not like one linear narrative or style or thing that's happening. There's lots of different things that are happening all at the same time. And we're only really starting to do a better job at recognizing that now. There's multiple histories, and multiple styles and things happening all at the same time. So really history. It's not like this one linear thing. It's like a big spiderweb of, you know, and it's really messy. And that's, that's the thing that makes it really interesting and dynamic, but we're not very good at thinking about things that way. We insist on putting things in nice, neat little categories and everything has to have a neat timeframe. Like it can't be like 1521 to 1673 because that just doesn't feel neat and contained for us. We have this need to contain things, which is crazy because that's not how time Her explore life. I must point out and acknowledge though that that's a very Western way of thinking, like, I'm sure like, I don't have the understanding to talk about this at length, but you know, other cultures and other strange other philosophies or other systems of doing things, think about things in very different ways. So what I'm referring to is, it's a Western perspective. It's not, it doesn't account for everybody, for sure. So within that time period, that long 18th century, what, what drew you to that era, I suppose, like how, why, why that period for you? This goes back to art school. My practice is very, very different to the 18th century, I my my own art practice is radically different. But the reason I was drawn to that is because when we went to when I was in art school, we had to do art history and theory. And we had this lecture in first year, who was very handsome and very charismatic. And everybody hung on every word, he said. And so we went to every lecture thinking, these lectures are amazing, and they're brilliant. And I was one of the fans. I thought he was wonderful. But there was one subject that he did. And it was kind of, I think it was called, like the history of Western art, or something like this. And he started with the caves of Lascaux. And he kind of worked his way through lecture, lecture, the lecture going through the history of Western art. And I remember this one day, he, I can't remember the name of the lecture, but he did the 18th century in one slide. Like I just like, I just have to pause there, because it still blows my mind. It totally blew me away, like, you'd gone. You know, one lecture might have been on surrealism and data, like an entire one hour lecture on surrealism and data, which is a movement in 19, the 1920s, like, you know, a response to the wars and things quite, it's quite a complex movement. But the 18th century, he kind of did this thing where he put up an image by a painter called fraggin, ah, he did a painting called the swing, a put this, this slide up, and I was fresh out of arts, I mean, fresh out of high school, too. So I was very young, I really didn't know very much. And he just put this slide up, and everyone erupted into laughter. And he said, this is like, the 18th century chocolate box fluff and nonsense. That's it. See later, let's jump into the 19th century. And I was just kind of like, I remember sitting there thinking, Why does everybody think this is funny? And why does he just wipe out an entire century with one slide, like, to me, I was like, I had no interest in painting that way, I had no interest in that style from my own work at all. But looking at that painting, I thought, wow, this is actually really, really skilled work. It's really complex. There's all these things happening in that picture. I don't understand what it is. But there's a lot more to this thing. I was just intrigued, absolutely intrigued. And then, you know, I also saw films like Amadeus, and, you know, all the all the period movies and stuff, and I just kind of developed this love for, you know, the 18th and 19th centuries. And then, when I went to study art history, I did four subjects and kept going and, you know, the my love for the 18th century grew. And I was kind of when I came to do my masters. I was like, do I do my Masters on Australian abstraction? Or do I do it on the 18th century, and then I went 18th century because I feel like I know and understand a lot about abstraction, but don't really understand the 18th century enough. So that's what took me that way. And I think it's also because images of that period of very complex nerve, very rich and iconography, which is, you know, the study of signs and symbols to kind of untangle what a pitcher is telling us. And I think that kind of tapped into my love for detective novels, and Agatha Christie and solving the clues. So I think that's what drew me in the most was just, you know, again, fun, lots of fun. And, you know, that period is fascinating, because, so, so much is happening in a very, very short timeframe. When you think about it, so much stuff for life is radically changing. And we've, we've inherited so much of that, you know, bad things as well as good things in within that period of time. There were lots of different movements, or was it the same? Yeah. Yeah. So I'll just very, very quickly tell you that the difference between the 20th century In the age of the long, 18th century, the long 18th century is kind of broken up into three major styles you could argue maybe for. But the 20th century is a very rapid succession of multiple movements. So there's lots of movements all throughout the century, and some of those overlap as well. So, you know, I'd have to sit down and write them down and can't off the top of my head, but lots and lots of movements happening very quickly. So some movements might kind of, you know, be defined by a naysayer decade, but and they resurface and influence other artists as well. So there's lots of overlap. And there's just lots of stuff happening. The 18th century is a century that has been neglected in research and scholarship until up until about the last 10 or 20 years, you know, people just didn't take it very seriously. So there's still a little bit of debate and a little bit like there's a lot of work to be done still. The start of the period, some people refer to as late Baroque, but it's really the Rococo, which is that the very highly decorative style, and then the, from the Rococo, we move into neoclassicism, which is, you know, the more classical austere kind of painting where it's all about heroic virtue, and those kinds of things leading up to the revolution. And then, around the time, like after the revolution, you have a movement called romanticism, which kind of spills over into the 19th century. And that's where you have artists like Turner doing those beautiful images of shipwrecks and storms and things like that. So we're going back to nature and the the power of nature and the sublime and those kinds of things. So it's really like, three year three movements in one century, and they do overlap in some of those artists. So for example, some of the, the artists working the Rococo style, kind of they also, you know, depending on when they were born, and who they were working for, they do kind of creep into the other styles as well. So some of the new classical artists move into romanticism, some of them don't, some of the Rococo artists move into neoclassicism, it really depends on where they are. And I guess that that notion of things have to have a start and finish, it just doesn't work like that things are all overlapping. And, yeah. And it's really formed and shaped by what's happening in the political and social cultural context as well, like, you know, so the easy thing there is like the the revolution, the French Revolution had an enormous impact on artists. So you do see a lot of things happening in the artwork that, you know, as what an art historian does is we look at works that are made in different time periods, and try and understand them in the context that they were made in as well. And that helps us understand what people were concerned by what people were thinking and how lives were lived at that period. Art historians tend to specialize. Like, for example, I specialize in the 18th century, but also look at contemporary art. Also look at modern art, sometimes I look a little bit at the 17th from the 19th. But I couldn't tell you very much about the Byzantine period, for example, there's just so much stuff out there. Art historians, we don't memorize dates and titles of paintings and things because that's connoisseurship. What we do is we look at objects and images as primary sources of material that can tell us it's kind of it's like detective work, you know, historians look at letters and documents and things and to tell the story of a person or what's happening in a period of time. And that's what we're doing with objects and images, where, you know, we're talking about the history of the work and the artist itself, but we're also recognizing it, doesn't it? Nothing is made in a vacuum, like, you know, artists are working in all different kinds of circumstances and political climates. And it really does shape what's being made. And not just visual art, but music and literature as well. Yeah. I mean, I've given very, very short, brief overviews of things. I've felt I have simplified things a lot. But I think, like, for example, when I when I say, you know, that 18th century has been a period that hasn't been as loved up until now, it's very different now. But when I started doing my Masters, people were still dismissing the Rococo, which is like the earliest period of the 18th century, there was some really groundbreaking research happening and the art historian is really fighting for the for that area of the discipline to be taken seriously, and they've done amazing work since but I think, you know, art history, it's like any other discipline, I guess, you know, it is susceptible to fashion you know, sometimes it It's hard to, you know, study an Australian colonial art, you know, I don't know, like it does go through fashion. But I think the 18th century really was quite overlooked. I'm not sure about the other disciplines, but definitely in art history, it was overlooked and not taken very seriously for a long time. That's his, like you said there was so much happening at that time, there was so much going on, and so much changing. And then it's like, oh, we're not actually going to write it. You know what I mean? Well, I can, again, I'll give you a very short answer for that, um, things like neoclassicism and romanticism, which happens later in the century were studied and taken more seriously. Like I, you know, I, like I was saying I did sort of condense what I was saying, and I simplified it a lot. They were taken seriously, much more seriously, for a long time than the first part of the century, which is that period that I refer to, or everyone refers to as the Rococo. And that is, because when we look at and this is, this is why that slide that I mentioned, was laughed at. Because it is so pretty, it is so feminine, it is so over the top decorative, it's ostentatious, it's, you know, it's just the height of frivolous for some people. And, you know, people kind of look at that, and the thing Oh, that's so ridiculously chocolate box, which is exactly what the lecturer said, like, there's, it's all feminine, decorative nonsense, there's no substance to it. And in that period of time, you know, women were powerful patrons, and they were really helping to shape fashion. And so, you know, sadly, because there were so many women involved, it was denigrated as fluff and nonsense, and it's totally not, like, once you start researching and looking at those images properly, and like looking at the culture in the social context of the period, it was enormously sophisticated and very, very progressive. Um, but, you know, historic later historians, you know, sort of later, later, from the 19th century, in particular, kind of looked back on that time and said, Oh, it's, it's all just feminine. You know, let's look at the stuff that's much more serious. And, you know, much more interesting, because, you know, it's about war. You know, the forces of nature and exploration and things, which is, of course, fascinating. But that's, that's really why people didn't take the early period of the 18th century. Seriously, for a long time. Yeah, because it was too feminine. Isn't that lovely? Yeah, it's just about flowers and puppies, you know, but there's a lot there's so much more. That's hilarious. Yeah, and it's a very simplistic view, because, of course, they're really looking at, you know, paintings and fashion and things. But, you know, the Rococo, you have to look at what was happening in, you know, maths and architecture, like there is that period of the Rococo period, and that style, that movement informed mathematics. I don't understand how that is, but it does. I'm not a mathematician, but I have read that it informed architecture and garden design and, you know, philosophy. It's incredibly rich period, the artists were talking to, you know, writers and philosophers and musicians, they were all generating and exchanging ideas and these really amazing communities. Yeah, like you said, before the community having people together, and yeah, bouncing ideas off of each other. So we briefly briefly touched on the involvement of women in that era, during that time were women painting, or were they more, like you said, the patrons of that era. So this is really this is really, really interesting. So both in that period of time, you know, the, I'm trying to think of how to make this a short story, not a very long one. So, in that period of time, women, I've got to be careful how I say this, because I'm not saying women were completely liberated from, you know, systems of patriarchal oppression because they certainly weren't. But women with money and power became very influential patrons. So one patron in particular, I'll give you one example Madame de Pompadour or was the king's favorite. She was a woman from a middle class background, she worked her way up. And she became a very, very influential patron of the arts. And she was a very good friend to artists and philosophers, musicians, scientists, she was an intellectual woman. And she held her own salons. And she, yeah, she patronized, you know, she, she commissioned artists to, and not just visual artists, but all kinds of artists to make work for her. And so that kind of patronage was really, really important to artists, you know, in sustaining their careers and their incomes, but also in shaping the visual culture of the time as well. And so yes, women with money and power and privilege, were definitely heavily involved in shaping the visual culture. For artists, female artists, this is where it gets a little bit tricky. There were some really, and I'll use the word exceptional. And some some art historians do use that term, too. There were exceptional art, women artists who had the support to train in, you know, studios that have their brothers or their fathers, for example. And at that time, women weren't allowed to go into the academies, except for a couple of women that we call the exceptional women. So for example, Angelica Kauffman, and Elizabeth Vichy LeBron, were two examples of female artists who worked in like they entered, they were permitted entry into the French Academy. And they became very successful artists. And they worked for the crown. And for example, LeBron and Kaufman, they worked for the Queen's at the time as well, for Marie Antoinette. And so they were very good friends of very powerful people. But that was quite rare. It wasn't, it wasn't as common. It was, it was much. No, I think, I think the thing about being a woman artists at that time was, you know, you really needed to have the support of men around you, like you needed to, you know, have, especially early in your life, because you sort of started training, as a child, or as a very young adult, you really needed to have access to a studio. And that was really out of the reach for females, unless you had a brother or a father, you might have been helping them make their work in the studio and have access to materials, someone might look at what you were doing, and say that's really, that's really great, we're going to try and get you some teaching, they might go and work with another artist and you know, gain some more skills. But the process is much more difficult for a female to become a professional academic painter. There were also other artists who, and this is where it gets. Again, I don't I don't want to go on and on too much, because it's not an art history lesson. But there were other artists who worked in pastels, for example, they didn't do the traditional academic painting, they use pastels to make beautiful images of flowers and portraits and things. And some of those women were working very independent of the academy. And that's how they sort of sustained their practice. But they weren't considered professional in the same way that the members of the academy and the painters to the Crown were. So you had different groups, I guess the thing was, gaining entry into the academy was that you had to, you had to sort of like, do a whole heap of training and learning first, but then to enter into the academy, you had to paint what they what we call an academy reception piece. So it was always like it had to be a grand painting. With a mythological or historical subject matter. It couldn't be a portrait or a landscape. It had to be like a religious work or something like that. And then that was judged and if that was good enough, then they could enter into the academy. But when I shouldn't say too, when I say exceptional for the women, it wasn't just that they were exceptionally talented or exceptionally good. What I mean by that is that women like Angelica Kauffman, for example, she she was very successful. She was an independent professional artist. She was considered exceptional, not just because of her talent, but the fact that she was a woman. You know, it's like, women aren't really supposed to be good at these things. Women are, you know, the too imaginative. They're too irrational and emotional to be doing work. In the same capacity as men, right? Well, because because she's a woman, she's exceptional. And it's a heartbreaking thing to say like, and I still I find that really difficult because you know, in that period women, like Pompadour, for example, she was the king's favorite she was a powerful patron she was an intellectual she, she was also a printmaker, she was doing all these amazing things. She was, she was, of course, very, very powerful and privileged because of the position she was in. But she was also someone who came from a middle class background and worked her way up. But these, these women were standout figures. And we we call them exceptional, because that's not that's not the normal life of a woman in that period like that they are elite women. And even even when you do have privilege behind you, you're still you still have to go the extra mile to, you know, advance yourself and to prove your capacity more than your male counterparts. Do, you know, you have to work harder to get there and to keep that position. As you it's really, because men and women were considered to be completely opposite, like men were the rational creatures capable of higher thinking and academic pursuit and women were nurturers and mothers and imaginative creatures prone to hysteria, things like that. Let's see exactly how they spoke about them. You know, women, women had the creative impulse, but they're also too imaginative and emotional to sort of harness those qualities into our interior rational way to make something more, more worthy of the academy, for example, I don't really know how to explain it. It's, yeah, they couldn't harness all of that stuff that creative people have, in a way that was balanced and reasoned enough to achieve, you know, a great work of art. Yes, it's like the eyes of men. Yeah, in the eyes of men. And so that's an even in art criticism, like, we do have documents where art critics are saying, oh, you know, this particular artists would be much better, you know, doing their paper flower cutouts, because they were looking at crafting. And this is where our denigration of craft comes from, too. That's associated with the feminine stuff. So they're kind of I don't know, you're not really good enough to be a professional painter, just go into your crafty stuff instead, you know, is that hierarchy? It's very gendered? Yeah. I think that we are getting better at that. But I think that kind of does still persist, sometimes. So these women that you talk about that went to the academy, where they mothers as well. This is where I'm not, I don't know a lot about their biography. I know that LeBron had one daughter, and I think her name was Xian. And she actually appears in lots of her portraits. I don't know their story very well, I think. I think this little girl was in lots of portraits. And so she would have been very close to her mother at that time. But for some reason, I think, later in life, their relationship kind of disintegrated. I'm not really sure why. But you know, she was her mother was painting her, so she was subject matter. And there are, of course, other artists, especially in the 20th century, who have used and postmodern period as well, who have used their children as part of their artworks. Yeah. Is that something I'm really interested in? Is that that this challenge between their work and their role as a mother, is that something that women artists have faced in the past? I mean, I'm sure that it can you say you can you say it in the work? Or does it come out in the work or is it? Is it something that you've you can research? That makes sense? There's the Oh, wow. It's like, you know, there's so many different ways of being an artist, and there's so many different ways of being a woman in so many different ways of being a mother. So I think, like, for example, Barbara Hepworth, I'm just pulling out examples as I think of them. Barbara Hepworth was a sculptor and her work is quite abstract, but I know that she, she really considered being a mother integral to her practice. I don't know a lot about her work, but I know that she did consider her children to be as, like very influential on her like she loved being a mother and she thought that was really important to her practice, but also know that there are lots of artists like feminist artists who would have loved to have children but didn't have children because they knew having children would have a big, like a detrimental impact. on their career, so there are artists who have consciously made the choice not to have children. Louise Bush was another artist and nothing she had five children. She, again thrived on being a mother, I'm not sure how that shaped her practice for her. But there's another artists birth Maura, so an impressionist artist, and her daughter is, again, provide subject matter for her. We have lots of images where you see her daughter making an appearance. And I think she, I think her daughter was a model for other artists as well. So in, in lots of ways children have been subject matter for artists. In other ways, they've just, you know, I suppose, been around and provided their mums with energy. And, you know, I don't Yes, it's fair, it's very different for all artists, I think. I have friends who are mothers and artists now and I know, a couple of them motherhood is a very, like, it's a central theme in their practice. And their work is very specifically about motherhood and about their children. So I think I kind of get the sense that it's easier to make that kind of artwork now than it has been, like in the early modern period, for example. Yeah, the other thing I wanted to say, too, is just going back to the early modern period, there's lots of artists. This is another thing that's really sad. There's lots of other artists who are very, very good painters, but a lot of their work has been lost or destroyed. So a lot of their work we just don't even know, we don't have record of and there are other artists working in the Baroque and Renaissance periods, for example, where their workers that we were starting to learn now their work has been mis attributed to male artists. Ah, so there's a lot of stuff we just don't know yet. Hopefully, we do uncover more. But, you know, there are other artists who are very prolific, and then they have children, and, you know, their career finishes, or slows down, or some artists have been fortunate enough to have husbands who were very, very supportive and have nurtured their careers, other artists. I can't remember her name. Now. I read this in passing the other day. She was a composer. She was forbidden to practice by her husband when she had children. So she just stopped. And I think I'm trying to think of her name. It's just escaped me, which is really terrible. She was associated with the Bauhaus artist. So I think what happened with her is she stopped practicing. But it took over a period of years, it took her an enormous toll on her health and well being. And for some reason, I think her husband was convinced, actually, no, you need to let her do her work again. And so she did do some work before she died. But she lost a lot of time. Yeah. Well, that's what her name was. I have, I'll have to go back through the book that I was reading the other day and find her name for you if you're interested. Because she's Yeah, composer. I think her husband, I'm not sure if he was an artist, but he was definitely associated with the Bauhaus school, which is designers and artists in Germany. Yeah, I don't. It's just something that I came across the other day. I don't know very much about that about her. But that just kind of really struck me. Yeah. Yeah. terribly sad. So I think there's a lot more we could we could say, but it hasn't been written and recorded or research yet or hasn't been found yet or it's been raised. Yeah. In terms of your identity, as a mother, I asked my guests this question about, I do the air quotes, is it important to you to be more than just a mom and I say just a mom, because I know that's not a correct statement? Is it important for you to keep that identity and not become mum? Just mum? Absolutely. Um, for me, it's vital. And I think, again, as I was saying earlier, I think that's a really big part of my mental health. You know, being an artist, I guess is at the core of my identity. And I think it always has been, but also in terms of my children looking at me, I think, you know, it's important for both of them, not just my daughter, but for my son to to see that, you know, women, even in their roles as mothers and nurtures they're multifaceted multi dimensional beings and, you know, we have our own interest, not just career or art was have our own likes and dislikes and responses to things, we have our own feelings around stuff. You know, things impact us as much as they impact someone else would we hold everything together, but we need to be looked after as well. And sometimes we need to look after ourselves. And you know, that's critical. It's absolutely critical. And, you know, one day, we're not going to be doing the, the, the intense hands on mothering where our children are so dependent on us, they're going to go and live their own lives. And, you know, they need to, they need to acknowledge that we have our own lives going on as well. And we need to acknowledge that we need to take that we need to hold on to that. Because otherwise, you know, there's so much I think there's so much potential loss, if you don't, hold on, hold on to something for yourself. And I can't imagine what that would be like. Yeah, and I also feel like, as a, as a mother, myself, I never wanted to be that authoritarian, just just mum kind of person, I want it to be a friend, I want it to be someone that they would, you know, feel comfortable coming to want to have around later on in life. And they're doing their own thing, too. You know, I don't want to just be the mum who does everything for everybody. I want to be the person who is counted on as a friend as well. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's motherhood Being a mother is a multi dimensional thing. It's not just you do the shopping and the cooking and the cleaning, taking the kids to school, changing the nappies. It's much more than that. Like, there's, there's a whole unique, amazing individual underneath all of that. And that person still needs to live. Like, you know, and they need to, they need to thrive like everybody else does. Yeah, it's important, obviously, important to you, for your children to say that in you to recognize Yeah, yeah. Because otherwise, they're not getting the best of me. And I know, of course, there are days, they're not getting the best of me because I'm tired and worn out. And I haven't given myself enough time or something. But that's my responsibility. Right? Like, you know, I can't, I was saying to my cousin who's a single father the other day, he's really struggling, being a single dad in lockdown sometimes. And I said to him, like, if you don't, if you don't put self care at the top of your list, you can not be the best dad for your child. Long term. You can't sustain it like, you do have to look after yourself. Yeah, whatever. And that looks different for everybody. Yeah, no, but let's see. Yeah, absolutely. I really value the stay at home mum, as well, as much as I do the working mom, you know, I think we've got to be careful of, not sort of, I worry sometimes that we diminish the role that mums have if they choose to opt out of a career because they want to stay at home. I think that's a really powerful, meaningful, valuable thing to do. I think that's incredible. I know that I'm not capable of that. But also know that mums who are doing that, even if they're not working in a job that's paid and acknowledged, it's more important for them to maintain a sense of their identity, because, you know, otherwise, there's a danger of losing themselves in that. And then when their kids leave, like I was saying, what's left, you know, they need to have something that's just for them for themselves. Do you know what being a mum is? bloody difficult. It's probably one of the hardest jobs in the whole world. It is the hardest job in the whole world. For lots of different reasons. I think like it's, it's incredibly tough. And I think yeah, like I was saying, I think doing the stay at home mom thing is the toughest gig of all and I know that I'm not capable of that. I have an immense admiration for people who are doing that. They deserve everything, they deserve all the credit and they deserve that timeout and they deserve being looked after and acknowledged and honored and supported and I worry that they don't get that enough. I worry that even as women we don't give them that enough so I guess then that sort of leads me into the the concept of mum guilt. I think after you know, after the podcast that you're doing, I think you're becoming the expert on this. So I would love to know what you think on that. I think you know what I think I know that I've definitely suffered mother guilt for a different reason. There's a couple of strands of thinking here that I've got. So I think the whole thing with mum do I think, is reflective of a deeply patriarchal society that we live in. And what I'm going to say is I don't think that it's, and I'm trying to be careful about how I word this. I don't think it's necessarily men who are telling us to feel guilty. I feel like we're doing that to each other. I feel like I'll give you an example of this. When I, when I had my children, I was super, super lucky. I was able to breastfeed really easily, like I had absolutely no problem, I loved it. And it was, it was just like, falling away, oh, when my cousin had a child, not long after, and she found it incredibly difficult to breastfeed. She tried everything she could think of. And she was in agony. And I don't really know the particulars, but I know she really, she gave it a good crack. And she ended up having her her baby bottle fed and this nose. So this is like 18 years ago, too. It's not like yesterday. So I need to say things are changing. But, you know, the pressure and the judgment and the criticism that she got for that choice came from other women. And she really struggled with that guilt for a long time of like, I can't feed my child, the way everyone's telling me I should be. I'm not a good mom. And I'm like that, that is, to me, one of the most damaging things that we can do, is judging each other and not supporting each other. I think living in a patriarchal society means that if you're socialized as a heteronormative, woman, or girl, you're also taught that we're in competition with each other in lots of different ways. And I think that comes out in motherhood too. Like, if your child isn't sleeping all the way through at six weeks, you're doing something wrong. If you take a day home by yourself, and you're not working, you're doing something wrong. If you can't breastfeed, you're doing something wrong. If you don't give birth, naturally, you're doing something wrong. So I think I really feel like certainly for me, that's where a lot of guilt initially came from. I don't really do that anymore. Like, sometimes I kind of struggle with putting myself first like I bang on about that all the time. But I'm not always very good at doing that. But you know, my guilt, or my shame, I shouldn't say shame came from experiencing postnatal depression with my son. You know, I felt such shame for that. Because I really, at that time, I don't believe it anymore. But at that time, I really felt like I wasn't a good mom. And you know, and I think the other thing is, it's not always what we say to women is what we don't say to women, you know, we at that time, I know it's different. Now, I know it's changing. But at that time, people weren't really talking about postnatal depression, and I was terrified. I thought, you know, what, if I tell my doctor that something's not right, I think they might say that I don't deserve to have my child. Like, you know, I was honestly I was, I was petrified. And then, when things kind of settled down for me, and I was on medication, I just had that overwhelming shame. Like, I'm not good enough. I'm not doing I'm not doing a good enough job. Like, I'm not as amazing as that lady over there with her five kids is, you know, like, was so in love with this little baby, but I couldn't get it right. And something was wrong, and I couldn't understand it. So I think, yeah, I think that's the closest that I've really had to that full on mom guilt. And I just kind of feel like, we need to do more as women to encourage and support each other. But talk about and this is why I think your podcast is so amazing. We need to share all the crap stuff because there's so much crap stuff. And I'm sorry, being a mom is amazing. And it's an honor, it's a privilege, but there is so much crap in it. There's so much stuff that there's so much stuff that hurts there's so much stuff that's ugly and demoralizing and upsetting. And so many so many things that other people just don't understand. But you know, we need to at least acknowledge it and we need to, we need to tell our own children. You know what? Childbirth isn't easy. And it's okay, if you feel like shit after you've had your child like it's okay. Like all of these things are okay. And it's normal and a million other people are doing it too. Because it's so and you know, like I I learned so much from that experience, and I think it's, it's certainly taught me things so that hopefully I can be a much more empathetic ache mother friend, whoever I need to be for someone else, you might go through that. But, you know, like, there's so much unnecessary suffering and all that. It's, I don't know, I just kind of remember how confusing it all was too, because I desperately wanted my son like, he was a baby I literally prayed for, like, you know, I wasn't interested in becoming a mother for the longest time. And all of a sudden, I desperately wanted and wanted to have this baby. And he didn't come for a while. And then when he did come, and then I had him and I was looking at his eyes, I was absolutely honestly, had never felt such love. But at the same time, I was petrified out of my mind. And I was really sad and anxious. I felt like oh, my God, I've, I'm going to break this thing, I'm going to do something wrong. And then the more I plummeted into that, anxiety and depression, I thought, if I say anything to anybody, they're gonna take my baby. Like, though, in the very, very early days before I told my doctor, I thought someone's going to take him away from me. And I think that's why I didn't say anything. Of course, I didn't want to be judged. I did talk to my parents about it. I talked to, you know, my son's grand grandmother about it as well, very early on. And they're the ones who actually kind of steered me over to the doctor to get some medication. Thank goodness, because I wasn't in a very good way. So and, you know, that, yeah, it takes a really long time to get your head around that and a really long time to, to say those words. But there's so important. And I think this is another reason why I think your podcast is so immensely valuable, because I think if someone had just said to me, 18 years ago, it will be okay. And you were going to do great. And you're going to do all these other things, too. I think they would have made a big difference. And you're not a bad mom, and you're an amazing Mum, you just need a little bit of support like everyone does. So yeah, thank goodness, I think I think things are changing. I think we are starting to talk about mental mental health in the mainstream. Much more than we did, but yeah, geez. First time mother. That's crippling. It's really crippling. But again, I think, you know, I think there's a, there's a, there's a real depth of knowledge and wisdom that comes from that experience two things. I didn't have postnatal depression with my daughter at all. I had the postnatal depression with my son. And that was a very traumatic birth. And I think, yeah, maybe it was a PTSD thing. The I think the reason maybe I didn't have postnatal depression with my daughter is because I said, I'm not doing that. Again, I'm having this as Aryan thanks. Because, you know, I sustained some injuries and things as well. And like that was that was quite an ordeal for me. And I think because I made that decision early that might have had a bit of an impact. But I remember with my son too, like, there were nights, but I just didn't sleep. And I think that's that's the thing, you know, that was a big thing. I just did not sleep and not not because he was a bad sleeper, but I literally couldn't sleep. And I remember one of the nurses who came to the house to check in on me and stuff. She said to me, oh, when you can't sleep, why don't you just use that time to do your painting? And I was just like, I can't because I literally was paralyzed. I felt sometimes like I was paralyzed. And yeah, that's a really hard space to be in and being creative. I couldn't read a book. Like I honestly couldn't read a book. So I think to create work when you're in that space is I think it's probably impossible. It's like you barely functioning. It's like having a shower was just like, wow, this big achievement. Yep, absolutely. When you say it now, it seems like so unreal. But well, the energy that that takes is incredible. Like, yeah, it's something that you just can't be understated how, how debilitating that is and how we really need to support people who are in that I was gonna say I've always been very opinionated. And having that experience on these kinds of issues has made me even more opinionated and more vocal. And, you know, sometimes I get quite angry. And I think because it's like, yeah, I know what that's like. But you know, that to go back to that thing about the breastfeeding thing? Yeah, I had an awesome experience, I had an awesome pregnancy. But when I hear about someone who's not having that same experience, and who's really struggling and are being judged and criticized for become equally passionate about that, because I'm like, This is not okay. Like, you know, we need to be supportive of each other, especially women, we need to be supportive of each other, whatever our experiences and choices are, whether that's around motherhood, birth career, or not, whatever that looks like, whatever our choices are, we really need to, you know, support that. I think that's the most powerful thing we can do. That's interesting, by the way, that judgment? Yeah, it's interesting. Why do we judge each other like that? Like, is it because Is it is it going back to Days of having to compete for the affections of men or something? So you put other women down? So it makes you look better? Like, is it? Why do we do? I'm not, I'm not really I don't really know. But I have, I have read that in a patriarchal culture, like a Western patriarchal culture, women are socialized to be in competition with each other. And we are kind of socialized to think that there's limitations on resources and, you know, limitations on access to men and all of these kinds of crazy things. Like if you want to, you know, I mean, it goes back into history to like, you look way back into history, like it was really important to be engaged by a particular time in your life. And if you weren't engaged and married, it was a serious problem, you know, and so people, like, even if you watch Jane Austen Oh, yeah, there's always threads, you know, women are in competition with each other, because they want to get the best pick of the of the man to have them, you know, to validate who they are, as women and people in society, it's crazy. I think we've been doing that for a very long time. And not just not just around men, I think, you know, just as we frame ourselves as women in relation to each other and our positions in society, we might not think that consciously, but I think that's embedded in our collective consciousness or something somewhere, it's like, you know, a baby cries. And we have that no one says, When your baby cries, you have to do the thing you are compelled, like, your, your urge is to go out and check your baby, pick it, pick the baby up and do particular things. Because that's what you're built to do. And I think there are, I mean, we're animals, I think these things are so deeply embedded in our primal brain and our collective consciousness and all those things that I'm not familiar, like, I don't have enough knowledge on that. But I think that's got a big part to do with it. But I think we, you know, we're acknowledging it and talking about it. So hopefully, that's a really big step in starting to dismantle some of that stuff. In all of the things that I've said, I should also, you know, definitely point out that in all the the competitiveness and things that we've been talking about, there are some amazing communities that you find that you do find for yourself, where you do get that support, and that friendship, which is absolute gold. And, you know, for me, I've found that with two, two women when my son went to kindy. So it took me took me a long time to find that, but, you know, I've maintained those friendships for the last 14 years now, and I always will, you know, it's incredible. What we've, you know, the friendship that we've given to each other this whole time, it's unconditional, you know, like, it's it. Yeah, it's really unconditional. So there is there is all of that richness and beauty there, too. But, yeah, I really like it, if that became the norm, like if that was the biggest story, and the other things that we that we've been discussing were, you know, rare incidents. We can talk about, you know, what in history that used to happen, and yeah, exactly. The you know, what you're saying now to about the competitiveness thing, I actually get such a thrill. I'm always so excited when I see anybody regardless of gender, or whether or not there a mum or dad. I get such a kick out of seeing people take their own initiative and do their own stuff and make their own things happen. And so, yeah, I'd like to tell you that You know that you're taking your own initiative to do this podcast. When I, when I first found out about it, I was so excited about it because I thought, wow, this is, this is something that you're doing. It's your own project because you care about it. And it's meaningful, and it's, you know, sustaining you, it's wonderful, but you're also giving such a gift to so many people. So well done. That is a fair, that's a very, very long way away from being competitive. That's, that's incredibly generous. And it's really wonderful to see. Thank you. That's very kind of you. Okay, it's exciting. It's wonderful. And and you know, what, it's actually a really brave thing to do to, to do a podcast and to share and, you know, to talk to people about all this kind of stuff. I'm at the moment, I'm taking some time out to experiment and explore in my practice, because this year already I've had working for exhibitions. And I've been teaching and studying as well. So I'm sort of on a little bit of a, like, I've got little bits of paid work happening. But in terms of exhibitions and stuff for the rest of the year, I don't have anything on the go. At the moment, I'm just taking this time to play with ideas and materials in my studio, and have a bit of a break to probably for exhibition. Yeah, oh my gosh, though, they were amazing. But because of COVID, it meant that some exhibitions were pushed forward. And all it was all just in the timing. So, you know, three exhibitions, were pretty much back to back. And to two exhibitions that I had opened in the one week, that was pretty intense. It was pretty intense. And so it was kind of like, Yes, I need time to recover. I also need time to just play. Like, I just need to play with my materials. And I've already I've already got ideas for my next series of work, but I just want to explore the potential of different techniques and materials at the moment. Um, to kick that off, we then just take a bit of a breather you know, Oh, tell you something really funny. I'll never forget this. When I was doing my PhD, I had to, I was doing full time study. And then I had to go down to part time and stuff. So my PhD took a little bit longer than I thought it would. And I remember my son said to me, one day, see that little girl walking around over there. And that was my daughter. He said, that's your PhD. Because I, when I was doing my PhD, six months in, I fell pregnant, I didn't realize that this was going to happen, fell pregnant, and I had my daughter and I'm still doing my PhD when she was like, three. You know, I kind of submitted not that long after but he was like, there's your PhD running around over there, mom, and I'm like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It was and it was quite startling, because you already knew like I was when he said that I was sort of like in the process of winding it all up. And you know, I was on the homestretch. But he was like, there she is. A PhD. That is gone. Yeah, it's like, making visible the the length that it has taken me to do this thing. Yeah. And all the effort that you've put into here, rather than the PhD. It's just yeah. That is hilarious. Thank you very much, Melanie. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on. I've thoroughly enjoyed our chat and all the best with everything you've got coming up. Thank you so much, Alison, and congratulations on a fantastic podcast and wish you all the best for the future in this fantastic project that you have. It's been really fun talking to you today. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much, Allison.

Megan Arlin US knitter and yarn dyer S1 Ep14 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts This week I welcome my first international guest to the show, Megan Arlin from Colorado Springs, USA. Megan is a small batch yarn dyer running Huck and Rae Fibre Studio, and a mother of 2. Megan grew up in a creative home, she was a mixed media artist, using graphites, coloured pencils and collaging, selling her art and has been into yarn since the age of 18, She now enjoys being able to chat to people all over the world and assist them in creating their ideal colours and textures. We chat about the importance of her having something that is just for her, the identity crisis that she experienced after the birth of her first child, and how much she loves being a part of the very supportive online knitting community. ** This episode contains discussions around post natal anxiety, generalised anxiety disorder and dysphoric milk ejection reflex** Connect with Megan on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/huckandraefiberstudio/ Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music used with permission Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. This week I welcome my first international guests to the show. Megan Ireland from Colorado Springs, USA. Megan is a small batch yarn Dyer running Huck and re fiber studio and a mother of two. Megan grew up in a creative home. She was a mixed media artist using graphites colored pencils and collaging. She sold her out and has been into yarn since the age of 18. She now enjoys being able to chat to people all over the world and assist them in creating their ideal colors and textures. This episode contains discussions around postnatal anxiety, General Anxiety Disorder, and dysphoric milk ejection reflex. Today, I'm really excited to welcome my very first international guest. Welcome, Megan, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. I am so excited to be on. Yeah, I think I need to change that this episode to be called The Art of Being a mom instead of that. Yeah, you know, Same Same difference. Yeah. So tell us about what you create. So I am the owner and Dyer behind hucking re fiber studio, which is a small batch, hand dyed yarn company. And we're located in Colorado Springs, Colorado, in the USA. So when you say small batch, what does that look like? What sort of quantities are you? Yeah, yeah. So it's it's basically one pan at a time. So basically, I die. Anywhere from like three to four skeins of yarn. At one time, you know, I can have multiple pans going, but I'm just really, really small batch. There's no large scale stuff going on here. Yeah, so that'd be quite labor intensive. I guess they still Yeah. If you're doing a lot and creating a new line or whatever. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It would just be quite full on to, to get it all done. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm my business is pretty, pretty new. So it's all pretty manageable right now. And great. So um, so yeah, it's good. So have you always been interested in like creating with with yarn like knitting or crocheting, things like that? Yeah. So my mom was a she, she didn't really knit much, but she wasn't like a weaver. She was she would like make, like little weep squares and put blankets together and stuff. She didn't know a little bit, but I kind of always had that around me. I wouldn't say that. I was always super interested in it until, um, I don't know. I was I was about 18. I think when I got into it, I actually do you guys have Michaels art and craft there? I don't think so. Okay, well, it's an art and crafts store here. And I worked there and my last few years of high school and I was like constantly around the yarn. And I was just like, I want to learn how to do something with this. So I kind of I kind of picked it up when I was 18. But I've always had it around me. How does the process actually work? Like what do you actually do to where do you get your yarn from and how do you sort of work through to create Yeah, so I I don't spin the yarn or anything like that i by just kind of like naked undyed skeins of yarn in bulk and then you know, different weights and different textures different I primarily, pretty much only dye animal fiber so I'm working with wool alpaca silk stuff like that. Yeah, and so I just I have I have all those bases and I kind of just, you know, use inspiration around me to create the colors that I want basically to go together and make pretty yarn. You call it fall over there your autumn. Have you just started autumn over there? Ah, it's not quite but we're getting there. We're at the tail end of summer. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I've noticed a lot of your colors now. You're moving into those beautiful oranges and burnt sort of colors. Yeah, those are my favorite. Yeah. All the fall colors are like jewel tones. I just, I'm really drawn to towards those colors. Yeah, for sure. So you take a lot of inspiration from what's happening around you in the world and yeah, I mean, Colorado I don't know if you know much about Colorado but it's beautiful. It's beautiful. Here we have we have all the Aspen's, do you know that asked? Hey a little bit yeah. We have lots of like color changes and stuff, you know where everything goes from green to yellow and orange and red and it's it's just really beautiful like this. This part of the country is is just stunning and it's very inspirational. color wise I actually discovered you through documentary Cooper's episode. Yes, yes. You're finding people. Yeah. I've talked to people in Australia like Melanie and I've talked to people in Germany like I've, I've actually talked to other yarn dyers in Germany. Yeah. So like, all over the world. So. So it's, it's incredible. You're brilliant. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think probably because you, you're creating, like this small batch you can specialize in, I guess what people the demand for what people want, you can turn it around really quickly to if someone says this, this beautiful, whatever shade of green or whatever, you can go Righto and make it. Yeah, and it makes it really personalized to I suppose because you can you can talk to people about what they want. And, and crap. Yeah, I had, I had a gal the other day, who, who messaged me, and you know, is asking, like, if I thought these colors would go together, and you know, so so it is it's really fun and to to just like help people curate, you know, the the ideas that they have in their head for the yarn for their projects. So it's like, they're getting like my little bit of art to put into their art, which is just so special. Yeah. And then seeing what they what your product turns into. Yes. 100% The coolest thing about it to see to see what other people do with yarn. Yeah, I was really taken by the way that Melanie, she described how she paints but then she uses she knits and crochets and then includes that with their painting. And that's like, obviously, I'm not from an art background at all, but that I was like, wow, I would never thought to do that. So I guess it'd be cool for you to see. Yeah, we're Yeah. Your your products in up? Yeah, exactly. So cool. Yeah, it might not be what you sort of might imagine it might you think might become a teddy or something. But it might become you know, something? Completely. Yeah, yeah. The stuff that Melanie does is so cool and unique in and it's just really cool. Family, so tell us about your children. Yeah. So my husband's name is Jeff and we have been married for going on six years now. We got married in October 2015. I think I think that's right. And we have two children. We have a four year old son. He's my oldest. His name is Finn. And then we have a three year old daughter and her name is Sophia. S. V. A. Yeah, it's a it's an unusual name. Is that does that have any origins in that? So it's, it's Swedish. We were we were originally leaning towards name naming her Freya. But we want I just came across that name span and fell right in love with it. So that's what we ended up doing. So it's a beautiful way. Thank you. Thank you. I work in childcare. So I come across a lot of nice. Oh, I'm sure you do. Yes. A lot of unique name that that's a beautiful name. Thank you. Yeah, sorry, how old? She is three. So so my kids are they're 16 months apart. Yeah. Right. So they're very, very close. And he is how does that go? Do they get on? Well, they say do they actually really do. I mean, they're kind of At the age right now, where they bicker a lot, but but they just adore each other and the it's it's good, they play together and it's great, really slowly. So how do you fit in creating around having two little ones? Yeah, so basically, I, my husband and I kind of came to an agreement that I could have three days a week after he gets off of work because he once COVID happened and stuff he started working from home and he still is working from home. So basically, when he gets off of work three days a week, I get to go downstairs and do do my thing. So he takes over all the all the childcare and stuff and that's then that's how it works and it works well. Let's cry so you can just blissfully go down and create Yeah, I know that everyone's fine upstairs. Yeah, I mean, I can I can hear what's going on. So if I need to, I can run up there. Oh, that's fantastic. Well, you're doing you're dying before you had your children. No, I was not. So I was a mixed media artist basically, pretty much my whole life. In high school, I did a lot a lot of mixed media art, I sold my art I got a scholarship. So basically, my medium was like graphite colored pencil. And in the I throw in other things like newspaper clippings or magazine clippings, yarn, sometimes that type of stuff. But no, I wasn't ever doing really anything with yarn dyeing until after I had my kids. So do you do do you still do your your other kind of out of touch? Now I really I really don't very much. So kind of when I got into college, like my kind of my art kind of stopped. I really, I got focused in on like, I was kind of like weighing whether I wanted to pursue art or whether I wanted to do something else. And I I ended up pursuing health care. And so I actually worked in health care for 12 years I Alzheimer's and dementia patients for six years. And then I did hospice for six years. Oh, wow. Yeah. So um, so I I mean, I was knitting during that time that but I really wasn't I wasn't really doing art you know, it had it had all kind of kind of dropped off. So so really, I don't I don't do it too much anymore at all. Sometimes Sometimes I'll draw or do watercolors something like that, but not not much. Yeah, for sure. It's the the drawings got the center stage at the way right. So do you have other mums over there that are sort of in a similar boat where they're juggling? Doing they're creating with young kids, you have a sort of support network around you. I really don't. You know, that's I've kind of been alone in that type of way, I guess you could say, I actually don't even have that many mom friends that are in the same place as me. Like, I have friends that have older kids. I have one friend in particular who is who was kind of in the same, you know, toddlerhood area as me but she I actually just taught her how to knit so so she now she's on that boat but but yeah, not Not really. I actually most of the community that I have I I got online. So I the community that I that I have online to through knitting and fiber fiber art is you know, those are people that that I guess I can relate to, in that sense, you know, there's definitely other moms and stuff like that in that world. But I but I don't have anybody directly that I'm in contact with. Um, in my day to day life that is kind of in the same boat as me. Yeah. Do you find that challenging at all? I do a little bit. Yeah, it's, it is tough because I actually don't even have any family around at all. So it's kind of just us. And, and yeah, so so it is. It's it. It felt very lonely until I was able to like, kind of engage with the community online. So that's been wonderful for me. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Because yeah, even if you don't have that, you know, physical support. But yeah, having people that you can relate to that you can have conversations we've had so important, isn't it? Yes, it is. Absolutely. And particularly at the moment, I'm not sure how you guys are going over there now. But with all the COVID stuff, like not being able to see people anyway, having to be Yeah, and things like that. Yeah, guys, all out of that. Now, where are you? Oh, so so we're not in lockdown at all. In fact, not not just a whole lot of people are wearing a ton of masks or anything anymore here. So you know, we I think there's a high vaccination rate, but I'm not 100% sure about all that type of stuff. But anyway, yeah. So so we're not locked down or anything like that. I know that the like, Delta variant is pretty busy making a comeback and everything. So I don't know how help the winter looks for for us. But But yeah, we've been kind of back to normal, I would say, you know, where we can go to restaurants and all that type of stuff. So oh, that's a good. Yeah, the only place that you like have to wear a mask is if you're going into medical places. So yeah. Which makes sense, doesn't it? Yeah, does. Absolutely. It's we've been living in crazy times. Oh, my gosh. Do you still work in healthcare? Now? I don't. So when I got pregnant, you know, it was always the plan for me to be a stay at home mom. And so yeah, I worked up until I my last month in in, I was doing hospice. And and then, you know, then I was a stay at home mom, you know, and I guess we had planned on me getting back into healthcare and everything at some point, but after being out of it for a while, I realized, like, I cannot go back to health care, because it was actually a little bit traumatizing. You know, it's kind of like after, you know, it's like, you're in it, you're in in the battle. And then you get out of it, and you're able to process it. I mean, like, I had so many people that I loved and cared about and you know, and I was caring for them during their death, you know, and so 12 years of that was a little bit traumatizing for me. And so, yeah, so I was like, you know, although it was very fulfilling. And I'm thankful that I did it. I don't ever want to go back into the healthcare field. And that's, that's just that for sure. And particularly now with COVID Like, I don't think if you had your choice you certainly you wouldn't put yourself in that exposure and the danger and having young family now yeah, look on a on a separate note, I totally I completely admire what you've done with hospice of dementia I'm I'm got a complete admiration and gratitude. I did home health care to when I was hospital because where I live, I might the city that I live in is quite large, but the cities around us are a lot smaller. It's a lot more like farmland and stuff. And so So yeah, I would go out I would go out to houses and stuff too. And, and yes, like palliative care and hospice is 100% of blessing but like, but yeah, it's it's hard mentally. Yeah, for sure. So yeah. So you said you would you wouldn't eating at that stage. Was that something you were doing to sort of switch off To forget, days, I guess Yeah, I mean, knitting, knitting has always been a source of like, like to help with anxiety or you know, any of that type of stuff. It's like, you just yeah, you kind of just, it's something that you're doing that you focus in on and, and knitting is just so awesome. In that way, you know, you can just knit and knit and knit mindlessly. And it's, it's really wonderful. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's, it's repetitive and you can get lost in it. And it's meditative, almost like you consumed by, yes, you're doing and you're using your hands. So you know, your whole body is involved. And my Nana used to knit she used to sit and watch the telly and just gonna click, click, click, click, click. Yeah. She tried to teach us and I remember kind of doing the thing. But now, but I could totally say that I can totally empathize with that for sure. In each episode, I asked my guests about two particular things. One is identity. So retaining themselves, even though they're a mom, they still are themselves and they hold their own identity. The other thing I talk about is mum guilt, which I'm sure translates across the across all Yeah, realities. Yeah. So let's talk about identity first. So he's important for you to feel like, and I say this in air quotes, because I know that it's not an actual correct statement. But you are more than just a mum. Yeah, so I didn't know how important that was. Until Yeah, I, you know, I had, you know, I had had an identity, you know, which was, I was a health care worker. And then I became a mom, and then I wasn't that anymore. And so, you know, people would be like, Oh, what do you do? And I'd be like, Oh, I'm a stay at home mom. And so they would automatically say, oh, then okay, what is your husband do? Which, which I'm just, like, just felt terrible to me. It felt terrible to me. And, and so, yeah, that was a big. I went through an identity crisis, really? Where I was just like, What am I besides a mom, like, it didn't feel good to me. It didn't it, didn't it? I felt really, really lost. During Yeah, during that kind of transition, because I didn't really I didn't really know. And like, just, I mean, I'm not saying that, like, just being a mom isn't enough. But for me, it didn't. It just didn't. I just felt lost. You know? So yeah, I mean, it is really important to me to feel like I have something that is just mine, you know, something that that I can tell people about that, that I'm passionate about that that's really just mine, and yeah, so yeah, that is really important to me. Yeah. And something that you can do without your children. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, cuz because there isn't really a whole lot of that bathroom. Yep. Yeah, it's Yeah. And it's important that you've got your own space in your home where you can go the space spikes. Yeah, I mean, you know, I've got two toddlers talking at me all day. And like, we're, I just don't even have have a minute to even think to myself and so being in my little die dungeon down here. Oh, being able to just think to myself, talk to myself, I talk to myself all the time. You know, and just create a create what I want to create is everything to me really, you know, it's, it's, I need that in my life. So it's very important. Absolutely. You've said it so well. You actually took the words out of my mouth because I always say I'm I need something just for me. That's just mine. That's how I feel about my, my singing and my performing. And I loved that when you said it. I just went, Yeah, you know, and it was, it was something for me that like I felt I had, it was, it was hard to come to that realization because like, I felt a little selfish for feeling that way. Like, like I was being ungrateful. Because you know, how many people would not love to be in my position where I'm staying at home and not having to, you know, go to a job every day or whatever. But that's really not not fair to me. You know, right, like, yeah, that's not fair to think that way. And so and so yeah, I own that I own that I need some time to myself, you know, and that is not selfish at all. Because I think you probably would find I'm putting words in your mouth now. But a lot of people have said to me, they need something for themselves. So then they can show up in the best way. And for the children. Oh, 100% 100%. Yeah. Because, yeah, I mean, like, before, I was able to, like start doing my yarn dyeing and everything like that. It was, I felt more burnt out, you know, I just felt burnt out. Really? You know, and so yeah, I'm absolutely more able to, you know, I'm taking care of myself. And so it's much easier to show up for my kids. Yeah, you can't pour from an empty cup, you need to have it filled up to be. Yeah, brilliant. So I guess that sort of then leads into that mum guilt, about, you know, feeling like you should be doing everything for your kids, and you shouldn't be doing something for yourself. So I guess you sort of, you've experienced a little bit of that. Yeah. Transition. And I think I think mom guilt is a real thing. You know, I think I think that some people do experience it, but like, I can't 100% say right now that, that I don't and, and, you know, my kids are really helpful in that too. Because they, they honestly think that what I do is the coolest thing in the world. Like, they they really think I'm a rock star. They're just like, Mom, are you gonna go die your yarn, you know, they just think it's the greatest thing in the world. Like my, like, before I come downstairs, my daughter, like gives me a hug and a kiss. And she's like, have fun at work. You know? Like, they just respect the crap out of what I do, which I think it makes it so much easier. You know? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, and also, I'm not leaving my house, I can run upstairs whenever I'm needed or whatever, you know. But But yeah, it's, it's great. That's beautiful, that they see what you're doing. And they value that. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure they could see a change in in me, you know, because, you know, I'm, I'm happier I feel more more whole. Now, you know, then than I did before when I was feeling you know, lost and like, I didn't have any type of identity or anything for myself. So, but yeah, they think they think it's so cool. And I think that's great Do they ever come down into the die dungeon or? Yeah, I mean, like so. So like dyeing, the dye powder is dangerous. So you have to wear a mask and stuff so they're never around when I'm actually dying. But yeah, like every single morning, they come down to see what I've done, you know, and they'll be like, Oh, Mom, this is my favorite one. I love these colors, you know? So yeah, they definitely helped me you know, do the steps that they they can like help help me like wash out the yarn or like put it in the spin dryer you put it in a spin dryer and let all the water spin out of it. They love that so so yeah, they get involved in the pieces that they can Yeah, and I guess it would be exciting for them to see see the finished product like when it comes out to see what it actually looks like and that'd be new to us. Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, it's fun for everybody is like Do you ever think you think it's going to turn out somewhere and then it comes out a different way every single time every single time like you know I have a plan in my head and you know, I start working and doing what I'm doing. And it always does come out a little bit different than than I expect but I usually like it so and if not, I can go back I can kind of go back and rework it a little bit. It's so I do like it you know, like isn't quite dark enough for or whatever you know, do you wish to recipe or need Just go by. See, yeah. So so basically what I do is I develop the recipes. So I, yeah, so I develop the recipes and then I, I write down every single step so that I can try and recreate them, you know, the best I can, you know, you can't 100% recreate it, but you know, if people want, like, specific colorway data, I can do that. Yeah. Do you kids ever? Did they give you suggestions of what colors they want you to make? No, I mean, like, they're kind of like, you know what you're doing? You'll just tell me which ones ones they like and which ones they don't like as much, you know? Yeah. They could critique is at the end. Yeah. Yeah, yes, exactly. Oh, that's it door. I love that. Part of my part of my getting to this point where like, I was even, like, wondering about dyeing yarn and stuff like that was partially because of my I had I had postpartum anxiety. And so, um, you know, I was like, at this, this point where, like, I was just, I just had a really hard time, you know, letting even my husband kind of deal with my, like, when, when I was a new mom, so with my son, like, I was always even concerned with my husband dealing with my son, I didn't want to leave him alone with anybody. I was like, constantly, like, compulsively checking to see if he was breathing, you know, so I really, I really struggled with that. And so I started looking, you know, I started knitting a lot more, you know, just, that is just what I do to help with my anxiety and stuff. And that's how I actually got involved in the, like the knitting community. Because that because I really knew no one else who knit my age at least. And so I that's how I got involved in the knitting community and even learned about indie dyeing. And that's kind of just really what set it all off. So I kind of have my postpartum anxiety is, for that. I have a generalized anxiety disorder that I've been diagnosed with. So actually, when I was kind of in, in the Thralls, of my postpartum anxiety, I didn't I didn't even realize it. So it was more kind of my, my husband was kind of like, oh, you know, I actually, I, I experienced, I don't know if you've ever heard of this. It's called dysphoric milk ejection reflex. So basically, what it is, is when you're, you're breastfeeding or pumping breast milk, the letdown. It's, you know, releases chemicals in your brain. And for people who experienced this, like myself, it makes you feel terrible. Like, it's just like a wash of bad feeling over you. And so I experienced that during breastfeeding. And I also was just having a really hard time breastfeeding, like, I was just not a very good milk producer. And so it was, it was it was just kind of a double whammy, really. And so like, I was kind of dealing with that. And I was dealing with the I mean, and I didn't really know I did actually end up talking to my I, I had a midwife I did I did home births with both my children. And so anyway, I told my midwife about that and she diagnosed me with the dysphoric milk rejection thing, and it's so that you know, and I mean, there wasn't really much to do about it, I guess. So. I just kind of dealt with it. And I kind of fought I fought with breastfeeding for about eight months with my son. And finally, my husband was just like, can we please just try some formula? And I was like, I guess. And so we did. And like, Honestly, after I put my son on formula, like, I felt so much better, really, you know, and I had, I had been a mom for eight months, you know, and so that kind of was like my coming out of that. But then I got pregnant, right after I stopped breastfeeding, and kind of but but at least like with my daughter, I knew what I was getting into. I knew I was going to experience that. And so I just didn't breastfeed her as long as and put her on formula, like after three or four months. So yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's so I didn't really, so when I was in the postpartum anxiety, like, it's something that I see so much looking back on. But like, I didn't really realize until I was out of it until I like, talk, because, you know, it's like, when you're in it, you're just like, what, what are you talking about? Yeah, I can so precisely that situation was just very defensive and everything and so so looking back on it, I was like, Oh, me on so yeah, and I mean, like, with my, with my daughter, it wasn't, it wasn't as bad. Because I wasn't a brand new mom, I knew she she was going to be breathing every single check. Do you know? And? Yeah, so. So so I didn't necessarily deal with it with my health care professionals at all. But it was also something that like, I hadn't really heard a whole lot about, like, you hear a ton about postpartum depression, but not very much about postpartum anxiety. So it for sure. Yeah. So it's definitely a real thing. And it's definitely different. You know, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Like I've had my background experience has been replaced now depression. And I didn't know there was a thing called personnel anxiety till I spoke to Jade, who's on the program next week. So and now I'm talking to you. There's no speak to experience. So it must be so widespread, but yeah, it will just don't you know, don't hear about it. I don't know if they don't, they're not aware of it. Which I don't know. I wonder I wonder if it because, like, you know, I? I wonder if it's just because maybe, I don't know, it's maybe it's more common amongst people who have like, anxiety disorders. I don't know. I don't know if the other lady that that you talked to has like a anxiety or panic disorder and her Yeah, life or whatever, but but I do. And so, um, but I mean, like, my husband, my husband's known me for forever, you know, and he, he was just like, it was on a different level. You know, during my, my postnatal Yeah. So yeah. First one is always is always tough. I think, you know, because you just don't, you just don't I mean, like, I was a caregiver for for 12 years. And I still, you know, I was like, before I had kids, I was just like, I got this, you know, but then, but then I had kids and I was like, wow, this is this is really a totally different ballgame. Oh, yeah. Nothing can prepare you really nothing? Yeah. Nothing at all. Even people tell you about it. Before you have kids, they tell you. It's really bad, but and you just get it. Yeah, that's nice. Because you're not in that headspace. You have no concept of what it's like to not have sleep and you know, yeah, you don't. You don't you're not there. Yeah, if you would have told me that I would be waking up at six o'clock, five o'clock in the morning every day. I wouldn't be like, No, not me. But that is my life now like I was I was definitely the gal who like slept as late as possible before working. But but now it's just like I'm an early riser. Yep. They changed your life in so many Abiel so many assays. Oh, yeah. Is the knitting community really big in America? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So um, yeah. If you're not a part of the knitting community, you wouldn't know how huge it is. Yeah, it's it's it's big. Yeah, it's big. It's a it's a big deal among knitters and crochet errs and, you know, fiber artists, so, yeah, yeah. Cool. There's a lot of people a lot of people involved yet. Yeah, over here. It's Like crocheting is having this massive resurgence in a, in a not doily way. Yeah. Right. It's the best way I can describe it. It's like they're making all these amazing, beautiful Teddy's and creations. And yeah, those are so cool. I love it and because I have so much respect for it, because I don't understand how they do it. So yeah, I have no idea how to crochet. I've never I've never tried, I kind of always just, I like, the way that knitting looks, you know, and so that's why I wanted to knit. I just kind of like the the end product of of knitting, but now, but now I've seen lots of crochet stuff that looks like knitting So, but But yeah, I've never learned how to crochet but yeah, I do know, I do know a lot of people who do. Yeah, yeah, it might inspire me just to pick up the sticks again, maybe Yeah. I, when I listened to Melanie's episode, I was crying at the end. Because, you know, it's like, it's like, because I can relate to her a lot. And so I you know, it's almost like you feel so validated, you feel validated when you hear other people have gone through the same things that you did, you know, because, you know, a lot of, of what you see is like, perfect, perfect. Culture, perfect, mom's perfect, you know, everything and, and if you don't see the real side of it, then you feel like you're alone on an island. And, and so it's so validating and to hear other people's stories about motherhood and what, what they did and what they went through and stuff. So I think what you're doing is, is wonderful. Oh, thank you, thanks for being a part of it. I kind of like work on collections. So like, I did a spring collection and now I'm doing fall collection. And you know, because I'm because I'm a fairly new business. You know, I'm just kind of go in the flow and seeing how things go, you know, so but yeah, it's kind of like, I guess the goal is to be able to release collections and also have like, custom like sweater quantity orders come in and stuff like that. So yeah, that's that's kind of the goal. So, yep. Thank you. Thank you. It was great talking to you. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I'm so excited to have have a special American as well. Thank you again, Megan. Alright, take care and best of luck. You too. Stay wary. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet