Rachel Gresswell New Zealand expat illustrator S1 Ep16 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Today I am joined by the delightful Rachel Gresswell. Rachel is a visual artist based in Melbourne VIC, and a mum of 2. After initially training in painting in New Zealand, Rachel transitioned to drawing, and drawing for animation - creating moving image works out of drawings, or a series of drawings. She was particularly taken by the tequnique developed by William Kentridge. In this episode we deconstruct the concept of mum guilt and what it means to Rachel, how she uses her art practice to record the day to day moments of her children’s’ childhood how she find wonder and inspiration in the everyday mundane events of our lives and the shift that took place in her mindset in relation to how her art and her work and home life actually could co-exist, and even enhance each other. **This episode contains discussion around post natal anxiety** Rachels website and Instagram - http://www.rachelgresswell.com/ - https://www.instagram.com/rachelgresswell/ Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music used with permission - Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in Early Childhood Education. Welcome to the podcast. Today I'm joined by the delight from Rachel Cresswell. Rachel is a visual artist from Melbourne, Victoria, and a mom of two. After initially training in painting in New Zealand, right to transition to drawing and drawing for animation, creating Moving Image works out of drawings or a series of drawings. She was particularly taken by the technique developed by William Kentridge. In this episode, we deconstruct the concept of mom guilt, and what it means to Rachel, how she uses her art practice to record the day to day moments of her children's childhood, how she finds the wonder and inspiration in the everyday mundane events of our lives. And the shift that took place in her mindset in relation to how her art and her work, and home life could actually coexist, and even enhance each other. This episode contains discussion around postnatal anxiety My guest today is Rachel Cresswell. Thank you so much for coming on. Rachel, it's lovely to welcome you to the podcast. Thank you, Alison. It's my pleasure. Fantastic. So for those who are not familiar with you and your work, could you give us a little bit of a rundown on what kind of art you create? What kind of mediums you work with that kind of thing? Yeah, sure. So I'm a visual artist, and I initially trained in painting. But really, over the last few years have worked mainly in drawing, and a lot of drawing for animation, as well. Yeah, so creating Moving Image works out of drawing those areas of drawings, and just starting to dabble back into painting now as well. So that's, I guess, an overview of my work. Yeah. How did you initially get into to drawing in the painting, I did a Bachelor of Fine Arts in my late teens and early 20s. And in New Zealand. I did that straight after. After high school, I had some really great teachers all through high school, and they sort of encouraged me to apply. And I was accepted. And yeah, I absolutely loved my undergrad years. Four years of just yeah, having a great time. And yeah, I've maintained a practice since that period. Which, yes, it's quite a long time ago now, I guess. But I've just this year started my MFA. So my Master of Fine Arts at the Victorian College of the Arts here in Melbourne. So it's been a long sort of hiatus between study, but just really thrilled to be back in that environment again, and yeah, hoping to see, you know, what comes out of it and what the next stage looks like, I guess. Yeah, sure. So as a kid growing up, we always sort of an arty person. You're always into touring and things like that. Yeah, definitely. Yep. I loved. Yeah. All of that stuff. I love sewing, as well. You know, working with textiles, any kind of craft thing. My mom is really creative. So she always still, you know, we'll always have loads of projects on the go. So was definitely, yeah, all around me. And certainly encouraged. And, yeah, definitely, from early, early primary school years through through high school. All sorts of all sorts of different projects, I guess. Yeah. Oh, that's really good. I, when you said about your animation, I was just completely taken by your animation I saw on your Instagram account. I was just, ah, I was just blown away. My son. He's, he likes to draw and create things. And I said, Alex, come and look at this. And he was like, Oh, wow, that is so cool. Yeah. Can you explain just a little bit about that, like, I could explain it but I'm, I don't speak the same language. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. I'm, there are just so many possibilities with animation, moving image and and drawing and, you know, there's so many tools now that are also available. You know, with iPads and stop motion animation software, and, you know, Apple pencils and things like that. So the, I guess the possibilities are kind of endless, but my sort of technique is very old school. So that's literally, you know, drawing a frame, rubbing it out redrawing the next one and sort of photographing them all in between. And then they get laid out on a on a timeline and editing software. And you notice a shift between the small shifts between the drawings that create this sense of motion. And that's a technique. Really, that came to the fore, I guess, through William Kentridge, who is a South African artist. And he's made, you know, huge numbers of films, dealing with, you know, situations of apartheid in South Africa and all sorts of, I guess, geopolitical themes, and he's exhibited widely through, you know, in Australia a lot. So, I've been lucky enough to see a lot of his work in the flesh. So is that yeah. Are you into that style? Initially, when you discovered his work? Or how did you sort of get into salutely? Yeah, yeah. So I had a couple of lectures at whitecliff went when I was in work with college and Auckland, when I was doing my undergrad who, you know, shared his work and a lot. You know, we've talked a lot about it. And yeah, it really piqued my interest in I was just was captivated. really captivated by the magic of it. Yeah, yeah. I just love it. It's like, the the images are over. I think it's easy to steal five more recently on Instagram, a different technique, which has been super fun to discover. So that's, yeah, they're just using an Apple Pencil in procreate, which is just a little program that I got on the iPad. So they're fantastic. So they're just literally drawing over that that still image and that just seems that my boys playing? Yeah, I guess I'm gonna get the things that we've been up to and locked down. Yeah, just slower. And that's really funny. Actually, I've been finding that making those little animations are kind of almost like triggers for memory, I guess. So when I look back at those I can remember in quite in quite a lot of detail. Like being with the boys in that situation, whether it was you know, jumping in the puddle or playing in the backyard with a leather that type of thing. So, yeah, I have a terrible memory. But I find when I've invested the time to create, you know, these these drawings, which, yeah, they do actually take a bit of time work. But I find like, they really cement that event into my memory, which I'm super glad because you know what it's like with little kids like moments are so fleeting and anything that can help you to remember these day to day experiences as gold. Yeah, it really helps you to hold on to those. Those they seem like maybe, like you said, like, day to day experiences, but they are so special, because that's all those little experiences going to create, you know, their child. Yeah, it's an incredible way to record them growing up really. I mean, I'd be pretty psyched if I looked back and my mom was doing that sort of stuff for me. It's pretty special for before you had your children, like you just mentioned how the children are, they come out in your work. Can you talk about where your inspiration has sort of come from and I'm, I've always been really interested in the the idea of the every day so I guess the things that take up our day that necessarily special or memorable but that is They they take our time Our time has invested in doing these things every day. And I guess from after having kids, a lot of that does become very domestic just because you're in the house or around the house so much with them, and you're doing so much for them. So I guess it's me being interested in the everyday that's sort of channeled my attention that way. But I guess before having kids. Yeah, I was interested in things around work and around memory and kind of family and those sorts of things. It's almost hard to remember, in some ways, because I guess having kids is such an all consuming kind of thing. And it's such has such a profound effect on your life. Yes, it's almost hard to remember. Before that. What I would say at the moment is my MFA my, is a research program. So the theme of my research, or what I'm looking at investigating is more around representations of faith in contemporary visual arts practice and Australia at the moment, and I guess, looking at how that shifted in recent history, in line with Australia becoming a more secular nation. So I guess there's those two points that have influenced my work both before kids and now it's, it's, it's around questions of faith, and it's also around the idea of the everyday, and certainly how those things are connected, and how they influence and speak to each other. So that's words that you but yeah, quite well. Yeah, cuz your example, one of your work, so I was looking at it from above, it's at a desk, so the person might be moving the mouse or moving the pen. And it's like, it just makes you stop and think about, like you said, it's, you know, a lot of people might document like a birthday party or, you know, something a big event like, yeah, yeah. That you do, over and over and over and over again. You know, it just that when I saw that I just made me stop and think, oh, wow, like, that's an incredible thing to me, because you would have had to put so much focus into that to draw that many times. And, you know, I just found that yeah, incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that was a work. That was literally about work. And that was about, I guess, when you know, when you're growing up, and you think of being an artist or something like that, you think, yeah, you know, I'll be an artist, that'll be my job. But it's like, no, the reality is, I'm going to have to have a job, like a job job to support the arts practice. So I guess in that particular work that you're referring to, it's, yeah, it was me grappling with, I guess these two parts of my identity, or not even identity but the things that I do and I'm looking at one through, I think I said in the statement looking at one through the lens of the other, I've always seen them as two quite distinct camps, and in some ways, but this was an attempt to kind of reconcile that for myself, I guess. Yeah. So let's jump on in and chat about your children. So you've got a couple of boys. Yeah, two boys. They six, four. So currently at home with us with with lockdowns? Yeah. But now they're good. Most kids probably they're just big energy. People. Lots of lots of fun. Lots of nice, yeah, lots of everything. Before we had kids, I was working full time. And in some ways, I've found that more of a challenge to have an app practice With full time work in some ways, there's something about the energy that you expend, or that I found I needed to have in my job was just kind of greater than them what it is to be with kids all day. And in some ways, yes, kiss. Yeah. So so there's that I found it hard to come home after a day of work, I guess and, and sort of reset, and do a second shift with that, which I did do. But I found that I did find it really challenging. And then, when I was pregnant, I naively thought that, yeah, I'm gonna not work I'm gonna have all this time and it's gonna be amazing. And the baby's just gonna, you know, sleep quietly, and it's quite famous last was totally different, didn't happen. But in some ways, I you know, even with little babies still had tiny pockets of time through the day when Remi eldest son was born, I sent myself a little challenge of, of doing these contour drawings of his first 100 days of life. And they were just tiny, like little a five drawings and I've got this really clear memory of, you know, sitting beside the bassinet and he had quite a routine 25 minute sleep cycle that the first sleep cycle so I remember like at 20 minutes, I'd start rocking the bassinet trying to get them across that get to the next sleep cycle then I used to do these little contour drawings while I was doing that and then as they've gotten older I I only work three days a week now so yeah, I guess times just shift it around a bit but certainly on the days when I'm at home with the boys Oh, they definitely won't have more energy for that for that night shift on that yeah yeah, it's just everything's different at the moment because of COVID and lock downs. Yeah, like everything's just a giant kind of mess and we're making making the rest of it and trying to squeeze in things here and there but there's no real routine at the moment I guess I'll have them work there's a workers and yeah, every day's a school day I feel for you guys over there My goodness. Because your children in your art, do they like to look at themselves in your art? Like do they get excited to be part of Yeah, yeah, they do. They do. They love it. Actually. I love looking at it. And I've been surprised even some more abstract things they've been able to, you know, pick each other out. So yes, yeah. They're involved. I know that I do it. You know, we often paint together or not often we sometimes paint that's not a sort of a stressful activity. Yeah, you prepared for things like that? Don't you have to get ready to clean up and have not have to go everywhere? I work in childcare so I can understand what you're saying. Oh, goodness, childcare is amazing. I love my job. I get to like it's it's kind of a relief that the kids get to do all those types of activities at childcare because Oh, yeah. Okay, but you got to you got to get it out of childcare. And then you can get changed and it's fine. You can go home looking like you haven't touched any paint or text lately A couple of the big topics I like to chat to my guests about are mum guilt, and identity. I guess I can just ask him, What do you feel about the topic of mum guilt? It doesn't really resonate as a term so much with me. I guess. Yeah, I mean, of course, I would have worries about the kids or, you know, certain things that are going on on with them that you you worry about. I think after I had Remi, our first child I had, I had quite bad postnatal anxiety. Um, so I definitely would think that I had a lot of guilt then about certain things. And a lot of that was tied into breastfeeding issues. And I had all sorts of things that were misdiagnosed, and it kind of came to a head and I switched over to bottle feeding. So I definitely had guilt around those sorts of issues quite early on. And just the classic, you know, expectations on your stuff that, in hindsight, are unrealistic. And but, you know, it's very hard to see that for yourself. Yeah. But I guess now, I think my practice has always fitted in around the kids, probably, and especially until this year, when I started doing my masters. So I've never, I've never felt guilt in a sense that, you know, time that I've been investing in that has been taken away from them, because it's always been something that I've done at night. You know, occasionally, might have had a few hours in a day type of thing. Also, I think, when I think about the word guilt, it, it feels to me like it's something that you would feel after you've done something that you knew intentionally was wrong, or misguided, or bad or something like that. Whereas I think being a parent, you're always acting in their best interest you. You're trying to do your best even if, you know, maybe it's not, maybe it's, it's not quite right, but yeah, so I guess there's a term but it's not something that would sit, sit with me, I really am. I think if there was something that was bothering me, you know, be quite quick to talk to Simon and my, my husband about it and you know, thrash it out together type thing. Yeah. It does feel like a label. And it feels like it. It, it does a disservice to the very real and deep feelings that you would have towards your child. Like it feels like it kind of almost glosses over that depth of feeling that or concern that that you have for your child. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't. Yeah. Yep. It's so much more complex and detailed and unique. Individual then, you know, then being able to apply a label like that, I guess. Not all love that answer. Age dwellers Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben had it. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate, and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts. So then leading into identity and I you did mention it earlier, talking about your work and your art practice. When when you throw motherhood in the mix. Do you feel like that it's important for you to retain that the part of yourself that isn't the mother? Yeah, absolutely. So I guess like I was saying earlier I use I used to think about things being more siloed in these kind of camps, like I had my art practice and I went to work and those two things didn't really intersect, but over the last few years, and maybe it's an impact of having kids, I'm not sure. But when I think of all those different types of, perhaps of identity or other roles and embedded comments that that I would have, you know, as, as a mum, and as an artist, and as a spouse, daughter, everything, yeah, I see myself as being all those things equally. And fully, I don't see them as part of the jigsaw either that that would fit together. But, but that I'm all those things. And practically speaking, of course, they have different kind of biting, you know, different stages of life, or even through the course of the day, like those things fall into a natural kind of balance, but they're all part of an integrated life. And I've, I think I've finally gotten my head around that a bit more, and that they don't, they don't have to bite up against each other. It's just all they can sort of all everything all the time. Yeah, yep. And but they definitely feed into each other. So if I've, you know, had some space and time through the way to, to focus on my artwork and to be quiet in the studio, then absolutely, that reflects in the way that I am with, with my kids in the sense that I think it helps me to be more present. When I am with them. I'm not so much thinking about. But it allows me time and space, I guess, to really focus on them. So I think they shifted from thinking that they all these different things take away from each other, but they don't they all support each other and work together. Like I said, as part of an integrated life. So that's been a big shift for me, and, and being able to shift my thinking around there. And I think it's helped. Yeah, help me manage my expectations. I guess I've myself. Yeah, I think it just, it kind of satisfies that desire, I guess to for that part of your life that then enables you to concentrate on another aspect. And that's, that, that sounds very kind of cut and dried. But thanks, unconsciously, it's, it's all those things feeding into each other. And, and, yeah. It's a wonderful abs and no one's ever answered it in quite that way. I think that's a lovely thing. Yeah. That's really cool. Especially because, yeah, you've adjusted your thinking, and you've come to this realization, I think that's awesome. Yeah, helping me to be a bit more, a bit more settled, I think. Yeah, yeah. And not always, not always feeling like things are taking away from each other. I think that's a big thing. Things are not at the expense of each other. It's just a different balance of time and space in that moment. And then I guess you can feel quite comfortable with whatever you're doing at that time. Yeah, you like sort of keep saying it again. But you can actually be quite settled in that moment and not have your mind racing off. Elsewhere. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I think that's gonna help a lot of people actually. Hearing you say, that's something a lot of people's do struggle with. Yeah, definitely. It's, and it's not saying time for that as something selfish or only fulfilling yourself, but it has a broader impact out into kids and family life. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of people talk about needing that something for themselves, so they can feel fulfilled. And then that helps them present. I hate saying the word best version of themselves, but the version that they want to present to their children or to their spouse or to their work. So they they need that to fill them up. So then they can go out in the world and how they want to be, I suppose. Yeah. 100% agree with it. And it manifests in all sorts of different things. You know, for some people, it's exercise or cooking or whatever it is that I guess is is good for the spirit. Yeah, that's Sitting here. Yeah, absolutely. We talk a lot in childcare about having a cup filled up, like with the children have that emotional cup filled up and it's so important as adults not to forget that we actually do need that. Yeah, absolutely. Have you got other mums that have had a similar experience juggling the art and, and mothering that you've sort of been added to? Yeah. Probably not in my immediate network or my immediate friends group, but certainly call it colleagues or other people that are at school that you come into contact with. But I think what I found most valuable is just the friends who are juggling some sort of balance between being a mother and also like, we were talking about continuing to invest in those things that they feel it feels fills them up. So, you know, for some it's work completely and it's it's about maintaining that balance between work life and home life. And you know, for others, it's, I guess, different sorts of hobbies, but I guess yeah, there's probably no one specifically. With Ah, that's, that's close to me. But I would also listen to a lot of podcasts and things like that not not even so much to do with being a parent and managing an app practice. But I, I guess there's this so much available you can be you can kind of always find something that that helps you in some aspect of your life. I really enjoyed that episode you had with Rachel power. Yeah, I read her book. Very early on, when after we had me a son, that that was a real game changer for me because I was really struggling with postnatal anxiety. And I just lost myself in that book. I just, I just loved it. You know, just, I think, just realizing, which seems so obvious now. But realizing that you know, so many people are in the same boat juggling, dealing with the same issues. And I think having your first child, it's such a shock. Well, I found it's such a shock to the system. Just completely turned my life upside down. And I know it's the same for everyone. But I think reading that book. It really helped me early on. I think, yeah, yeah, a lot of people have said that to me that it almost it gave them validation that what they're experiencing was actually okay, and normal. And you know, this Yeah. And I told him to Rachel was amazing. She's such a generous person. To lovely to talk to. Yeah, and that's thing I think, even like, we know, everyone has kids, like, we know lots of people have children, but when it's happening to you, you can feel so alone and so confused and lost and just takes you know, in that case, one thing to say actually, this is normal you get liberated, you know, because there's so much information like there's so much information and and to find something that really help is helpful and really resonates it's that's yeah, it's worth the trawling through all the other stuff that you find yourself googling it. Three o'clock in the morning when the baby won't sleep or feed, but certainly you're taking advice from some, you know, mother and Midwest, Texas. Some time What am I doing? Oh man So my main focus at the moment is my MFA. I'm doing that part time. So it's going to be a four year process, which is great at the moment, because, you know, so much time has been consumed with lockdown and homeschooling and just being on full time as a parent. But definitely in the background, I'm chipping away at, at work that I'm developing as part of my, my studies, and some working with my, I have two supervisors as well, who I meet with, you know, kind of every three to four weeks to look at things. So I'm working on a new series of drawings, which are taking that concept of animation, so of sort of things moving through time, and, and displaying that kind of, or working with that visually, but they're not drawings that are layered on top of each other, as they have been previously for making animation. So I guess, I'm exploring the possibilities of, of time, like the passing of time in in drawing without the final outcome being an animation, so they'll stay as a suite of drawings that will, I think, be like the final outcome, but still dealing with these with the ideas of, of times, passing and how to represent that visually, and aesthetic to deform. Yeah, so that's sort of where I am at the moment with, with, with my studies. And, and, as I said earlier, my research is, is looking at representations of face I'm working with identifying artists who work with those sorts of things in their work currently, and, and also looking at the sort of working back in into recent history and, and looking at how questions of faith have been articulated in, in art. Yeah, it's really interesting. So yeah, it's almost like you're being a bit of an art historian. Yeah. And drawing threads from that into my own practice as well. You know, things that you you read and, and think about, you know, have a way of weaving themselves into your own practice. Certainly, that's, that's been my experience anyway, so it's quite loose. I don't have, you know, an endpoint mind at all. It's just starting to flesh out some of these. These ideas, I guess. Yeah. But it's very slow. And a lot of it is just going on and in my head, because we don't have the bandwidth at the moment to, you know, be spending a lot of time in the studio. Yeah, yeah. When this damn COVID moves or moves on. You'll be back. Yeah. Yeah. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet

Kate Mildenhall Australian writer, podcaster and educator S2 Ep26 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Welcome back to 2022, Season 2. My first guest of the year Kate Mildenhall, a writer, educator and podcaster from Hurstbridge Victoria on Wurundjeri lands, and a mum of 2. Kate is the author of two novels. Her debut novel, Skylarking , (2016) was named in Readings Top Ten Fiction Books of 2016 and longlisted for Best Debut Fiction in The Indie Book Awards 2017 and the 2017 Voss Literary Prize and The Mother Fault (2020) which was Longlisted for the 2021 ABIA General Fiction Book of the Year and Shortlisted for the 2020 Aurealis Awards, Best Science Fiction Novel. Kate also co hosts The First Time podcast a podcast with fellow author Katherine Collette about the first time you publish a book, and she is currently working on her third novel and undertaking a PhD on creative process. We enjoy a lively chat about failure, creating in a covid world, judgement of mothers, how her mothering influences her writing and why everyone should think like a 40 year old woman. **This episode contains mentions of post natal depression* Kate website / Instagram Twitter @ katemildenhall Books mentioned Rufi Thorpe article - Mother, Writer, Monster, Maid Four Thousand Weeks - Oliver Burkeman The Divided Heart - Rachel Power Making Babies - Anne Enright Listen to Claudia Carvan read The Mother Fault on audible Purchase Kate's books here Podcast instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo - Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome back to season 220 22. My guest today is Kate Mildenhall, a writer, teacher and podcaster. From her speech Victoria orangerie lens, and a mom of two. Kate is the author of two novels her debut novel skylarking, released in 2016, and her most recent released the mother fault from 2020, Kate also co hosts the first time podcast with fellow author Catherine collet. About the first time he published a book, she's currently working on her third novel, as well as undertaking a PhD on creative process. Today, we enjoy a lively and fun chat about failure, creating in a COVID world judgment of mothers, how her mothering influences her writing, and why everyone should think like a 40 year old woman, I hope you enjoy. Thank you so much for coming on case. Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's delightful to chat to you. It's lovely to meet you. Let's share with the listeners. what your background is in what you create. Well, these days, I am a writer. So I've written a couple of books. And my last one was called the mother fault. My first was called skylarking. And I'm currently working on my third book and just added a PhD because you know, COVID times was like times to do crazy things, right? So I'm doing that so and beautifully at the moment. I'm getting to do that, you know, full time in whatever kind of capacity being a full time writer is what that looks like. I know, it looks like really different things for different people. But that's what I do. eautiful So, can you share what your new book is gonna be called? Are you still working on a time we're still working on that one. And I've actually just been away for a week, which says lots of things both about motherhood and guilt and Christmas and being an artist and to work on it. Because it's just been so crazy to try and work on creative projects during the homeschooling and the rest of it. I'm over here in Melbourne. And and I've exploded the book. I've I've I've done something quite radical with it. So that's fine. Just letting it simmer all the all the crazy things I've just done. But yeah, but it's been really fun. I've been working on that for about a year because the mother fault came out last year in the midst of of lockdown. So yes, I've been I've been working away. Oh my goodness. So what's your PhD? So the PhD is is it's really fun and exciting. It's at RMIT. And it's practice based. So it means that I get to do my writing. And I also am a podcaster. So I co host the first time podcast, which is interviews with writers. And a lot of just oversharing myself and my co host Katherine about our general publishing journeys. And, but I get to include all of that. So I get to include the my kind of interviewing and my obsession with creative process because that's what I am utterly obsessed with. So I'm and then my novel is kind of part of it as well. So it's a little bit different to a traditional kind of PhD. So I'm looking really particularly at journaling, and dealing with the kind of creative process and how writers do their thing how writers do their process. That sounds really fun. Like it sounds like it's just it's just a part of what you're going to be doing anyway. So it's not going to be like a tremendous I mean, I'm not saying it's going to be you know, hard to make your life anyway, but it sounds quite doable. Yes, and like it's almost like it's given it a kind of a shape all of the other work that I do you know sometimes when you're in a position and you can describe vibe, you know, this is my writing, this is the podcast and it all kind of links, you know, and having the PhD kind of around that goes, oh yeah, this is really validating to me, because it's a serious thing that I'm doing. Yeah. And also just community. Yeah, you know, I think one of the things that happens when you're writing often and might in before I was a teacher, so I was really used to having lots of people around me and a big collaborator. And so I have often found the writing process to be quite lonely. And so even just having the system of the PhD and colleagues and supervisors and to be able to part be part of that network already, like I'm in the six months in MIT, it's, that's wonderful. Yeah, so it's really meeting that need the that creative space that Yeah, to do so. Also, now the kids are really excited, cuz they like, oh, my gosh, you're gonna be adopted one day? Yes. So they're super pumped about that? Before we get to the kids, I know that was you gave me a beautiful segue there, but I'm gonna go take you back. Yeah. Did you do have you always been a writer? Or you know, when you? No, no, no. So I was at school, like, passionately into it kind of wanted to be a writer, wrote lots, you know, at high school and did the Friday anthology and won awards and things like that. And then I wanted to do this tape degree, Brian MIT writing and editing as, when I left, I went talk to the careers teacher about it. And apologies to people who've heard this story, if any of your listeners had, because I've told it so many times, but the TAFE their careers teacher said, Kate, Smart Girls don't do TAFE and basically said, don't do that course. And I was like, Ah, right. And, you know, not having not having kind of much goal of my own at that stage. I went off and did something else, which I promptly dropped out of, you know, after a year and went off traveling. But I went back and did that, that that course, eventually, which is the delightful thing, but no. So I went and traveled for a while, then I went back to uni and did teaching. And at that time, I kind of, I was writing a little bit like journaling a lot, but writing a little bit, and I, I put something in for a competition, and I didn't get anything, didn't, didn't get anything at all. And after all of these years of like, you know, winning things or getting commended in them. It was such a rude shock to me. I mean, I laugh at it. Now I tell this story to students because and they have a laugh at my expense. But I just I saw it as a huge failure and rejection. And I was like, Oh, I can't I can't write, I'm not going to write. And so I stopped. I stopped for like, all of these years, and I taught and you know, I was passionate about reading about teaching writing, and but I just I, other than my journal, I don't think that I wrote anything during all of those years. And then it was actually when my firstborn arrived that I felt compelled to write again. So yeah, so I writing wasn't, I never thought that I could be a writer when I grew up or that you know that that was a crazy outlandish kind of a thought. It's really interesting you say about that validation that you put that entry in, and it didn't get anything. And then that defines how you feel about your creativity. I had a similar experience years ago, because I used to do in a we had to do a Stanford's when we were proud of this group. And I was used to doing pretty well. And then I went in this larger competition and didn't even place and so I stopped performing. Because I'm not as good as I thought I was. You know, and for years, I let that define me that I wasn't, I wasn't as good as I thought I was. So I just went well, I must be very good anymore, isn't it? It's how do we it's ridiculous. I know. And, and heartbreaking. And often, when I'm talking about it with other writers, I'll say, you know, prepare for it and expect it and like get them in early, get as many values as you can eat early because I wasn't you know, I wasn't I hadn't developed any muscle in that area. So I so exactly like you say I just I did let it define me and like what a waste. I mean, I eventually came back to it. And I'm so glad and I think that you know, anyone who is an artist of any description probably has that kind of pulse in them that it's going to come out at some stage like you've got to make space for that at some stage or else it'll eat you up. And I'm so glad that it did. But I still think gosh, those, those wasted years in there as well. So these days, how do you view that kind of experience? Now? Like, if if you put yourself in something and you don't get it? How do you process that for yourself? That's such a good question. The, the, the last one that I had was actually, in the middle of the kind of process of the mother fault. I, I lost the original publisher and had to go and kind of start, start shipping it out again. And I was in, you know, I was broken for a little bit like it was it was rock bottom, I, I didn't think that I would be able to look at the manuscript again, I was hurt, and yet felt a lot of self loathing, I think. And what I realized during that period, was that I was going to do the damn thing anyway. You know, like that, I think that I had got to a point where I was like, Well, I don't care. I'm going to, you know, this, this book is kind of bigger than may sounds a bit wonky. But you know, we're in that sense, where you're like, I've got to see this thing through to the end, and see what it does. And so that was the thing, in the end that that got me through, and I think it's just layers, isn't it of rejection and failure along the way. I mean, you know, often, and you might be in the same position that, you know, people will say, Oh, yeah, but you your published like, How could anything ever go wrong from here, or you've got the thing, you know, you've already reached the goal, or you've been able to perform there or do that. And, and, I mean, the stakes just get higher, in a sense, and you just get rejected more publicly, with, with bigger stakes along the way. So yeah, yeah, that, that it's been a good, it's been a good learning process. For me, I think. And I just, I really do wish that I just failed more and failed more often. I think, too, when you're younger, no one sort of teaches you how to how to fail, like no one, no one says, Okay, now that now that you've lost, or they were better, or someone thought they were better, what how do you talk to yourself about that? Like, how do you do that, like, no one teaches so true. So you sort of know, just find your own way through. And unlike in both of our situations, it takes a long time. So you sort of think, gosh, if I hadn't done that earlier, what could I have achieved, you know, in all that time and space, instead of pushing things away, you know? Yeah, yeah. I agree. Teachers listening tapes. Had a flat. And that's I'm going on a tangent now. But that's the thing too, like, are we so afraid of those emotions that we don't want kids to lose? We that's why we give them everyone gets a for trying sticker and everyone gets Yeah, more than when we play pass the pass like kids parties. Everybody has to get a wrap up? You know, I know. And it's really hard. Everyone has to keep one has to be happy all the time. Yeah, I think that the hardest thing to do you find like sitting with your kids disappointment, and all those emotions that you can't fix, you know, something going on at school, and you just have to have to resist the impulse to try and fix it and make it make it better all the time. You know, and to take the discomfort away because it's, you know, you do have to feel all those horrible emotions and get and get used to them. That's thing if you don't have the opportunity to feel them, you could never work through them. So then all of a sudden you feel them and you go, what's this? I don't know what to do with this. And yeah, you deal with it in inappropriate ways. Like eating too much or drinking. Absolutely. All of the above. Oh, my gosh. Let's lean into your children. Tell us about your family. Okay, so I have I have two daughters. Gracie is my eldest. She's 10 going on 11 kind of you know, going on 19 And she is fiery and amazing. And then my youngest is Etta. And she's eight. Also fiery and amazing. And, you know, it feels very funny kinda I'm talking about them. At this point, I was actually really looking forward to, you know, to doing this because the book that I wrote is the last one is very much informed by my experience of motherhood. But you end up kind of packaging it in certain ways, like for the book world, you know, you package it in these kind of little sound bites. And, and in fact, the girls think it's hilarious because they were around so much when I was doing promo for the book, because we were all in lockdown. And they, they got really cross a couple of times, because they must have heard me say things like, you know, parenting is really hard. And I didn't like it all the time. Like, yeah, it's true, you know, and I'm gonna have to live with the fact that there's all these sound bites out in me talking about, you know, how kind of shit parenting has been at various times. But they are, they are glorious beings. We've just spent a lot of time together in the last 18 months. And, you know, it's kind of, I never realized the joy of watching them go off to their independent things, and all come back at the end of the day and be able to like, we've all done different things for the day is a very new and strange experience that I think only parents who've lived through this kind of last 18 months really understand. So they're my two. Yeah, they've done things during the day that you don't know about. That would be nice. Yeah, exactly. We're all really, really excited to tell each other about what? Oh, my goodness. So during that time, how did you manage to continue to do stuff during lockdown? Ah, we, you know, we didn't I think we just we just kept on failing beautifully. And when we first went in, so who even knows when that was maybe March, last year, I'm I'm sitting here in this little studio that my darling partner built for me in the backyard, and it was just finished, like, literally just finished the week before locked down. Where Of course, he also moved home and had to kind of write out do his work from home as well. He's a psych nurse. So he was kind of out and about, but also doing a lot of his work here. So this saved us having this actual separate space, because I used to work in the corner of the lantern. So I actually don't think that we would have survived at all, had we not had this. And the other beautiful thing was that because Adam, you know, his workplace was really good and quite flexible, so that he could do a lot of the homeschooling stuff in the mornings and then go out, you know, we just kind of juggled a bit between each other. And, and the kids, we live, we live kind of on the outskirts of Melbourne, there's a lot of trees, there's a big reserve behind us, like, I did feel extremely lucky that we had a bit more space around us. And, and we did you know, some of it, maybe the first two locked, it wasn't really, some of it was really lovely. And I think we did do that stuff of going, okay, we can have a fire in the backyard on a Wednesday night. And, you know, I would walk with one of the girls in the morning before they started just to give them a bit of space away from each other. And we did really pay attention to the flowers and the mushrooms and the birds and you know, so So for all that it was incredibly difficult. And there's also quite a few kids in our street. And we live in, you know, a little space where we could offer each other that support with other families and, you know, playing in the street, and across driveways and things like that. So I think really, we didn't you know, I lost a fair bit of work but but was still able to carry on, you know, we weren't in a really difficult kind of position with our jobs, and Adam kept his job. So for all those things, I think, you know, we were in incredibly, incredibly lucky. But also, as I said, to all of my mates and all of our WhatsApp threads, who had kids, you know, as we all kind of know, you know, we would all spiral down at certain points and just say like, I can't do this, I cannot do it anymore. I can't because it was never part of the deal that we signed up for right as parents, especially when then especially when you've already sent them out into the world and off to school and the rest of it like to suddenly have these big, curious, active social kids home with you all the time. And we're just we're just not equipped to provide everything that was partly out of the better the deal. Oh, man, look, hats off to you guys over there like we've we've had Touchwood we've had nothing as extreme as that. So yeah, you guys were often in our thoughts over here, all the Melbourne people, it's just unreal what you've been through. So, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, it's sad, and to be able to maintain your creativity maintain. Yeah, and I think creativity, you know, at times, and I've talked about this with a few friends in the writing world. You know, I was like, oh, gosh, maybe I should just go and train, retrain, I'll retrain to be like, a personal care attendant, or, you know, like, if there was that sense of, like, what is the point of doing my art in, you know, in a burning world, in a burning world, in a world that's collapsing, and so there was that pressure, but also the kind of focus or deep work that I find I need to do creative work just wasn't there, you know, I couldn't you at any stage knew you're going to be interrupted, couldn't get purchase on any kind of thought to go deep on it, I am often need to go away, or that's the way that I've done my kind of writing practice is that a few times a year, when it works, I'll go away for a few days, either with a writing group or on my own and, and go really deep on it. And that's where I find you know, I have real breakthrough, so to not have any of that, but also to not have any of that kind of friction of being out in the world, you know, and, and seeing people or interacting with people or observing things, or being able to go to the ocean, or all the things that would normally fill me up so that I have some kind of something to give some output. Whereas I felt like what what do I possibly have? I've been inside my house, with my children, you know, worrying and that anxious, you know, that kind of being in lizard brain mode of at any stage about that uncertainty, but also thinking? Am I supposed to panic now? How am I protecting my children, you know, and being fearful of other people, for the first time was a very strange kind of thing. And I think it'll take a while for us all to get to the other side of that. Hmm, absolutely. It's sort of I had a moment where I was going for a walk one day, and all of a sudden, I just thought, oh, shit, has that person got COVID? Like, I was just starting to panic. And I felt myself sort of shiver and, and I just sort of backed up and went home real quick. I thought, this is a horrible thing to be thinking. Yeah, well, but it was like, and then every time you turn the telly on everything on the radio, you just couldn't escape it. And it was just disastrous. So that's when I basically came into my studio and started music, more music stuff, I just had to get out of the current world and go back into a different world. So you found it. So you could do that. You could then put your energy into that space. Yeah, that's I basically had to, I use it as an escape. Maybe. I just had to end. What I ended up doing was I look, I was I was listening to a lot of older music, I think to take myself out of the current time space to Yes, yes. So I started doing covers of, of older songs. And I ended up releasing them all because it was like, I created different versions of the songs, got different backings, got a piano player, change the tempo, all this stuff. And it was sort of my way of looking back on it. Now. I don't think I realized at the time, but, but making sure that things were different. That changing. I didn't like what was happening. So I was changing it in some way. You know, I love that. Yeah. It's really that's the first time I've actually articulated that out loud. That's really interesting. Well, it's very profound. You mentioned before about your mother's hope novel, now you write fiction. So yeah, at school, I could never remember the difference. That's your struggle. I'm just, yeah, fiction made up, which means it's made up. But you mentioned that your mothering role had a lot of influence over that. So what sort of themes were you exploring in the book and I apologize, I haven't read your books. No, absolutely. Read say that. Because I I'm not a very good reader. I don't like to sit still and read. Isn't that terrible? No, not at all. Not at all. Then they, the mother fault is a it's a kind of a thriller. It said in the very near future, and it's about a woman MYM, who's got two kids, Sen. Sam and when the novel opens, her husband, Ben has gone missing on an overseas mine site. And in this very near future, Australia, everyone has tracking chips in their hands. But he's offline, they can't work out where he is. And very quickly, she's told to stay where she is, and not to investigate it any further. And so she does. So she does, because they kind of threatened to take her kids away from her. And she says stuff this, I'm gonna go and find him. And so she goes on the run. So she crosses Australia, with the two kids and then gets on a yacht and, and sails to Indonesia to try and search for him. So, you know, where the idea came from. My first book was historical fiction, so nothing at all in this kind of world. But when I finished skylarking, I was kind of sitting with this idea of the kids at that stage. Maybe Esther was like, two and Gracie was four, I think. And I was deep in that bit that those trenches where you like, wow. Not at school yet. So you're doing that kind of childcare, kinder, you know, crazy run every day is no more than kind of two hour, lots of anything. And I, and still that period, where it's just really hard. It's just really hard, you haven't I hadn't kind of totally I'd had this moment when the book came out of kind of re re identifying as, as, as a writer, and while I'm a professional out in this world, but also, then I just come home, and it's just, you know, back to packing snacks and feeling guilty about them not being organic, and the rest of it. And so there was that stretch, there was that kind of huge amount of feelings, both positive feelings, I adore these kids, I will do anything for these kids, I would kill for these kids at the same time as sometimes wanting to run away. So there was those feelings that I had. And at the same time, it was very deep in the political kind of craziness of the asylum seeker debate, and which, of course, we haven't at all fixed or done anything good about in this country. And so I was kind of like having that daily thing of the news of watching, particularly women who were, you know, crossing oceans in really unsafe ways to try and make their kids safe. At the same time going, I just want to run away from my kids like, how, how are these two? How can I reconcile these feelings? Yeah, so for that reason, you know, over time, I realized that I wanted to write about a woman, you know, on the run, trying to kind of protect our kids, but also trying to make sense of who she is, and what she's allowed to want. Now that she's a mother, and is she allowed to want the things that she used to want. She you know, she has a kind of crazy affair with an ex lover on the boat, in, in the book, not not a real spoiler, because lots of people talk about it when they read the book. And, you know, it was that kind of thing. And people have got cross, like, it's one of the things in the book that people are really cross about. Because that, I think, when we, when we look at mothers in fiction, and mothers in general, in society, we have all these expectations of how they're supposed to behave and how they're supposed to feel, and what they're supposed to prioritize. And if you kind of, you know, poke the bear, I suppose, and say, well, maybe this isn't what, what we want, or what we always want, and maybe it's complicated. You can get some big responses out of people. So, you know, that's what I kind of wrote in my, my feelings. I also, you know, there's a kind of thread of, it's not named, but postpartum depression, which I think I probably had but never really understood. The first time around with my first with my first daughter. Yeah, so everything, all of the feelings, all of the feelings, I kind of composited into the book. Did you find that was the way view of you're dealing with that stuff? Like you use that as a way to work through things? Yeah, I do think so. I think I was so compelled at that point to write about the motherhood experience, and in a way where I really wanted him to be kind of this superhero figure. And in fact, beautifully a couple of reviewers have kind of commented that you know, like, she's the kind of Jack Reacher of she's just like mum version of Jack Reacher and I love that. I love that because it was about it. saying, you know, I definitely don't have any answers in there. But, but being able to talk about it and being able to look at this idea that instead of, instead of what I feel like there's some pressure to do, which is to say, oh, okay, I'm a mum now. And so now I do things in a, in a mum way, like, I erase this kind of version of myself that was there before, which, it just seems so crazy, but I think to a level where or compelled to do that a little bit like, okay, you know, now we do things this way. And, and it was great to be able to examine this, this feeling of going on, I am still that young version of myself too. As part of it, I went on a yacht, I'd never been on a yacht before. And I, I crude, I volunteered to crew on a yacht, from Darwin to Indonesia, in a race. And, like, it was, it was crazy. It was one of the craziest things I've ever done. And it was incredible. And part of what was incredible about it is that it was scary, you know, and, and I, I reached new levels of fear. And when I was underneath, you know, at one night in my cabin, before, when I came off the late shift and thinking, we're going, you know, this boat is going to tip over which of course, that's not what happens. But if you think I'm gonna die in this boat, and that's going to be ridiculous. And my daughters are going to think, Oh, Mom was doing this stupid research for a stupid book. And she drowned in the middle of the table. It's a, but when I got to Amazon as well, I got to travel around a bit. I stayed there for a few extra days. And on my own, like traveling on my own, like I hadn't, you know, kind of really ever, but also, I remembered that my 19 year old self who was a backpacker who, who could make a decision on the corner about which way they were going to go and not to reach consensus with an entire family about what they wanted to eat or what snack they wanted it. You know, it was remembering that kind of that kind of sense of myself, which I think was powerful. Oh, that's incredible. That's, that is so good. And that's when you had your sordid affair. Yeah, no, definitely not. That part wasn't true? Yeah, that's that is so cool. Because what you're saying about society's expectations of what a mother should be? I feel like that is that that's what seems to drive the mom guilt. I think it's like, you see, or you do a post on your socials or whatever, or you see someone else's. And there's all these comments and you think, across what are we supposed to be doing then? Are we supposed to be spending time with the kids? And we're not supposed to be spending time? Are we supposed to be going getting our hair done? Without? Like, it's all this constant? Yes. Judgment. Yeah. Yeah. How do you do that? So I think, you know, I actually had a gorgeous, gorgeous dinner last night with, with very old friends that I went to school with. And, you know, as always, as we talk about work and life, and our marriages and our kids, you know, we were commenting and we've all just we're in the the years of old turning 40 that we've just reached part where we an excuse the language, you can put a language you want to have no fucks left to give. And, you know, but but we were commenting, like how that's been a slow process, and that in all those early years, like, all those things, am I packing the right snacks? How many cakes? Should I bake for the cake store? Should I be on the Kinder committee? Should I you know, how will we how are we approaching this way of parenting the kids like, just constant self judgment, constant comparison? And then additionally, if you're a creative, so you've got all that world over there, and then if you're a creative, you've also got the like, how much of myself can I give to my parenting and how much of myself can I can I keep over for my art and how selfish I was just rereading this amazing article by roofie thought which I'll send through to you. It's called Mother writer monster made and it was something that I was really touchstone for me while I was writing the book, and it's about her kind of really grappling with this idea of, I think it's Jenny awful, who says about being an art monster, like, you know, that, that, that there's this sense that throughout history, you know, all of the, you know, the old white male writers like they just set up in their studios or whatever their attics writing while they had a wife to do everything else, they didn't see their children, they could, they could spend all of their energy, all of their intellectual space, all of it on, on doing their work. And I don't, I don't want to do that, like I, I do want to kind of be involved and go down and see the carols at lunchtime and do those things. Like I feel very lucky that it's worked out in a way that I do get to be present. But also sometimes I do not sometimes I want to go away for two weeks and work on my book and forget, honestly, forget for a minute that I have children, because I think part of it is that that enormous part of our brain, which is constantly, constantly with the kids somewhere, you know, worrying about or just ticking over slightly, you know, have they got something today? Have they got that bag, all that present that I need to get, you know, and then and then the biggest thing is, are they happy? Have we made the right decision? Should we send them to an alternative school sheet, you know, all of the things that just wind around in your head all the time? And sometimes I think, Wow, if I? What could I do with that space? You know, what can I do with that space? And I think I had the most I had the beautiful kind of opportunity to interview Helen Garner for our podcast. A couple of weeks back, you bring that up? Well, it was incredible. But you know what I had? I you know, I've read her for so long. And I asked her about why she hasn't had to answer the motherhood questions so much. I mean, she talks about motherhood in her journals, particularly, but I was kind of wondering whether it was just my age that she did get asked that, you know, maybe when she first published monkey grip, and she says, this most glorious thing about, you know, when she had her daughter who's about to turn 50. So that gives you a sense, or who's a bit older than 50, I think. She said we didn't have a choice. Like it wasn't a decision to make, we just had kids, there was no anxiety about it, there was no thinking that it was a choice. And she's she tells this beautiful story about you know, for better or for worse that basically she kind of strode out into life. And she, she told her daughter to, you know, to kind of keep up. And she and she, you know, typical Garner always says, I don't know if that was the right way to do it. But that's how I could do it. And I and and she acknowledges also that there's just an an incredibly different level of anxiety around even the decision to have children now, which has made it all the more complicated. Think, yeah, because everything is a decision and you're so conscious about what am I saying? Yes to what am I taking away from my kids? Should I just be sitting here kind of being around for them? Or should I go out and do the thing that I really want to do, which takes me away from them, but, you know, maybe in 20 years, they're going to say, Gee, mom really did what she loved. You know, that's what you have to kind of hope right? across you. Be in therapy talking about us? Exactly, exactly. We can I mean, we can't do it. Right. You know, there's ways that we can, I suppose, try and mitigate against a failure and really bad ways every day for them. But I, I have got better we talked about failure before I've also got better at realizing that um, you know, I'm going to stuff this gig up this parenting gig up constantly, constantly, I'll stuff it up and, and being able to say that to the kids as well, you know, maybe is, is one way of getting through it. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I wasn't even. You mentioned, do you have girls have heard you say comments like that, while you're at home doing you your book launch? Is it important to you that they actually see that you are going out and doing stuff? I don't want to say not just being a mom, because there's no Yeah, being a mom? Of course, you're I'm hearing that. Yeah, no, it really is. And you know, the first time that that was truly validating, so I went on mat leave from at that stage. I was working in this at the State Library doing education there. And I went on mat leave. And that's when I realized I think I said before, you know, when Gracie was born, I just felt this extraordinary urge to write again and it kind of came at me in different ways. I tried to join a local writing group, it didn't work then you know, and not until Esther was born. Did I really go Okay, that's it. I'm gonna I'm going back to uni. I'm going to do it. And which led to some of the first kind of guy games that the kids played when they were, you know, doing imaginary play, were picking up laptop bags and going to you playing going to uni. And I thought I remember thinking, Oh, this is a good thing, let you know, like that they are seeing me do this, that it's this kind of crazy working life that I have. But they're, you know, incredibly proud of it. They like googling me, they think that's really fun. But, you know, and so they liked that part of it. On the other hand, it you know, at some point they will, maybe they will read, the mother felt and that's terrifying. Like, I think I will feel really unscanned by that process, because I you know, it has, it is really revealing of the fact that sometimes you don't want to have to be both, you don't want to have to be a mother and artist and friend, and you know, partner and all of those things. You just like, just give me some space, just do one thing. But But I also think I've tried to be really open, the kids have seen me at rock bottom, the kids have seen me on the days where I've had to close the door and have a cry and say, just let me have a cry, Nia, you know, I need I need time out. And for better or for worse. That's the kind of way that we've run with it. So hopefully, they will, you know, they will see that as an honest part. But I am conscious to that. You know, I haven't written memoir, and I think it must be really hard for people who are writing nonfiction and kind of living living their lives. And their children's stories far more openly. Like I'm conscious of that. And I do read with with close interest how people navigate talking about their kids, when they start to have a profile in terms of what their art does as well, I think that's just hard. I don't have any answers to that. Is you have to think you'd have to be so considerate of them. Have them exactly be so aware of. Yeah, it can be quite hurtful for them. You know, it's Yeah. And as they start to talk about, you know, I think one of the things that happened which is really funny in the process of it took me four years to write the mother fold is that, you know, Gracie, Gracie grew up, and I and so I changed the one of the characters se she actually grew older, I made her older in the course of it because it was suddenly became so fascinating talking with my daughter, you know, like, when they get to that part where they start, you know, you start having really interesting kind of conversations and they're curious and and they've kind of leveled up in the intellectual stakes. So much so that you think whoa, whoa, what have we got ourselves into here? This is a real little human who has like, really big thoughts about the world. So you know, that's interesting as well, to me, that's, that's wonderful. And I love their perspective or perspective on the world and the way that they can so throw you with their truthiness. Sometimes, oh, gosh, yeah. I work in childcare. That's That's my day job. And I see you get those. I'll never tire of the amazing things children really funny things, but things yes. Just makes you stop and think and go, Oh, my gosh, you're seeing the world in such a different way to me and it's wonderful. You know, it might pull yourself back of seeing this whole you know, where they're oblivious of so much stuff and it's wonderful love to be able to be like that again. Be overawed by all these big things that are happening and just be concentrating on this. This crayons not not the crown the next sharpening biggest thing in my world right now is to get that sharpener, or I'm not gonna be able to do what I need to do you know, just Yeah. Oh, just living so simply and in the moment, in the moment, not worrying about not worrying about you know, the possible trials that will come when they're teenagers. I love that they're doing it right. It's beautiful. I love that. Do you think that that huge desire and drive that you had to get back into your writing when when Gracie was a baby was that some of that born from sort of finding your, I don't wanna say, reclaiming your identity, but perhaps trying to discover who you were at that time. Like, I'm a mom, it's really interesting that mean for pre K, yeah, it was, you know, I had, I had done these little tiny baby steps to stepping away from what I thought was expected of me. So, you know, I thought that my parents were both teachers, while I had attempted to do this little kind of attempted at the end of school to do this, something else, you know, media, TV, whatever, it didn't work out, and I thought I will, you know, what you do as a, as a good member of societies that you work in nine to five job and you it's actually more than nine to five, because they were teachers. So it was kind of, you know, all consuming, and you do that really well and passionately, and then you, you know, you have a partner and you get married and, and buy a house and, you know, go camping and all the things like I was really like, this is what you do with your life. And when I had this opportunity to go to the State Library to work for under secondment kind of thing just for for three months. And suddenly I was like, Oh, wow. Like, the world is not just like a school, you know, like, there are other people and they have better like work life balance than I do, you know, and all of this kind of stuff. So I started unhooking myself a little bit from what I thought was expected of me. And then the shock of being a parent. And, you know, it was we had, we were 10 days late, Gracie was breached out to have an emergency cease, like it was not, it wasn't how we planned it at all. So it was all a bit of a shock. And in the first six months after Grace's birth, I lost two grandparents, both who have whom I was really close to. So it was kind of just a bit of a shitshow. And I think I found the capacity to write things down. Kind of hilly or like that there was this enormous force, you know, that visceral kind of thing, when you when the kids are born, you're kind of leaking, no one tells you how much you're going to leak like you just kind of wet for, I don't know, for six months, maybe longer, you know, like and how much and the sleep deprivation and all of those the just the craziness of the world that you're in, as well as that feeling of being affronted that no one told you it was gonna be like this, even though they attempted to. But no one really, no one really kind of told you and then I think being out in the world, I clearly remember, you know, I had that I had a year's worth of maternity leave. And I remember like, I don't know, go into the park or something immediate friend for a coffee on a Wednesday, lunchtime and going like, Wednesday, lunchtime is a time in the world where people are not just at their work, like people are out there in the world. And they're doing other things. And I know it sounds really crazy now. But I really did have to deprogram myself to what I thought life was meant to be. And even in that first year after skylark in, you know, and since the mother faults come out, it's still a daily practice of going this is a kind of a life that I've made for myself, that makes me incredibly happy and fulfilled and it does not meet, it does not check all the boxes, like doesn't check the financial box doesn't check, you know, a lot of the boxes, and yet I am so much kind of mentally healthier and happier than I was when I was killing myself trying to you know, be a teacher lot of the writing of the mother fault is about geology as well, I did all of this incredible kind of reading about geology, and I think it is that, um, you know, you kind of, they shift you off, they shift the axis, you know, you kind of it's kind of like and start you're spinning in a in a different kind of direction. I think having having the kids and I don't think, you know, I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that they make you better or wise or anything like that, because I know plenty of incredible humans who are not parents and they are incredibly wise and amazing and have kind of lived the full breadth of experience. But I think in terms of what it does for you personally is that it kind of just kicks you off where you are, and you have to look at you have to look at everything differently and and in that act of shifting I think I think Matt label or you know if you're lucky enough to have it or at least that space where you're kind of recovering from actually birthing or or having a newborn in any way that because it it so dramatically changes your day to day that you are forced to to reconsider things and often I think it's a real shame like, especially for friends who, particularly the men, who didn't necessarily get any parental leave or things like that, like life just kind of rolled on. And that, that what I'm so grateful for is the big kind of abrupt shift that made me go, Okay. Well, how do I want this to be? You know, how do I want my life to be? And I've got, I've now got a little human on the outside of me, who's also my responsibility. But how do I want our life to look? Yeah, and without that, you probably would never have come to that realization, you would have just kept going along, doing it slowly along exactly. I just wanted to touch on, you mentioned about the mother for having like, the geology. And so the title of the book is that, I'll give you my take on it. Yeah, because I really loved English at school, and I loved analyzing things. And to this day, my sister, it drives me nuts. When we watch movies, I'm always picking up the love that she's in the light. He's higher than her. She's all this sort of, you know, so basically, this is my take on it. And I say, again, I haven't read it. So I can't say, but it's, to me, it's two things, right? It's the fault. As in fault, as in the mother does things wrong, whatever, you know, no, one's perfect. Finding your way, whatever. And then the fault of like, the geology, like the fault lines of the things that move the earth, sort of Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Brilliant. Absolutely perfect. And it's not, um, it's not a technical one, someone who did a read for me at one stage was like, Is this a technical term? Like the greatest, you know, fault line? And I said, No, I totally just made it up. But in terms of, but yes, absolutely refers to that. But the funniest thing was that when I kind of got to it, and and it is that one of those beautiful things we I, I came up with the title myself, because often, you know, often publicy and you know, the publisher will do a title for you, because the one that you've got is shocking. But um, so I did come up with it myself. And I called my mom. And I was like, Ma'am, I've got it. I think I've got the titles of calling the mother felt. And she said, Oh, you can't call it that. And I said, why? And she said, Ah, because it's always the mother's fault. Like people associate those words together all the time. And I was like, Yeah, I know. Like, that's the point. And so many people have said, booksellers, particularly that like, women will comment on it, whether or not they buy it, and sometimes they do, but they will comment on the phrasing of it, because, and, and it provokes a lot of feelings. And I think that I think, you know, we love to a fault. As well as all of that guilt stuff about, you know, me in the book, you know, is kind of like running across the country, you know, escaping from the government, these shady government forces who are looking after her looking after the kids, and she's still wearing, like, oh, maybe we've had takeaway too much this week, like, you know, you know, because that is, that is how the brain works, you know, that you're, you're in absolute kind of danger mode. And the other thing is that, you know, when, when I won't give away the ending in the book, the part that I often read out, too, is that towards the end of the book, when MIM kind of works out what her husband's been up to, and she's really cross and she says, You know, I would have liked to be a hero too, but I was at school pickup, you know, and that, that in the end is what happens to us, you know, like, that is, that is literally in a nutshell. Brilliant, yeah, you know, that you you could do anything you could do you could be anything, you know, that this the possibility of what we have available to us. And of course, part of that is also being a parent and, and that the possibilities that are opened up with that, and the kinds of highs of our our extraordinary, but also the day to day logistics of it are just shit. You know, they just really, and I'm sure some people enjoy it, but I do not. And I know lots of people who do not, and they take up time and brain space and energy and and if there was one thing that I think kind of delicious thing that came out of COVID and lock downs is this tendency, which I hope we can try and hold on to which is to say, okay, maybe we can just have a fire in the backyard on Wednesday night and not do 18 afterschool activities and go to every party and say yes, they have We think maybe we can just, you know, hold on to a little bit less to think that it's enough the way that we're doing things. And then we have space for those other big, crazy wild possibilities that we want for ourselves or for our families. That would be a nice thing. I think I totally, totally agree with that. I can recommend a book which I just listened to on as an audio book. It's called 4000 weeks. Oliver Berkman, I think his name is. And the premise is, if we live to AD, that's what we've got 4000 weeks, that's only, you know, 4000, Saturday nights, 4000, Sunday mornings, and it was kind of like, it was very confronting when I first started listening to it, but his premise is, you know, it's limited, it's finite our time here. So you got to be when you can't do everything. And we think we've been fed this lie that we can, particularly women, particularly in the last 20 years, you can do everything you can have you agree, you can be kids, you can look amazing, your house can look amazing. You can see all your friends, you can have a great marriage, like bullshit. Yeah, you actually just cannot get to doing this. Yeah. It's impossible. It is impossible. And, you know, the book, I keep saying to my partner, you know, like, it's changed my life. He's like, your only two days in my blog post finishing the book. So just, maybe it hasn't changed your life yet. But I feel like it's got the capacity to have I keep reminding myself like, you know, I'm 40. Now like, that's it. I'm halfway through my 4000 weeks, like, come on, what are you going to do with the rest of them? You know, make them count? Can I ask I don't know if this is a sacred or not, but does mean get another book about it? Does she? Does she ever come back? You know, what she not at this stage? Lots of people were super duper interested in that, because it's left on a bit of a cliffhanger. Oh, hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah. I hadn't I hadn't planned there to be and hopefully. Yeah, I can't, I can't make any large announcements about such things. But hopefully, hopefully she gets a turn to, you know, be adapted into screen in some way. Oh, yes, but not that I would say anything about that. But hopefully, that's something that happens. I love this podcast because I find out things about other artistic pursuits that I know nothing about. So tell me how, when you write a book, do you then have to go you have to go find someone to publish it for you. You have to send it off to lots of people and stuff. Well, essentially, what we're how it works, that that's essentially how it works. One of the one of the great lucky breaks of my life is that when I was starting the course that I did the writing course at RMIT, I started writing skylarking as part of, you know, subject to their novel subject. And I actually managed to get that picked up by a publisher before it was finished. So it's very rare that that happens. And that happened. Which was incredible. And since then I've got an agent. So in Australia in particular, definitely in the overseas, the best thing to do is to find a literary agent, if one can you know, I mean, the other thing about it that's been so strange, is you kind of think, oh yeah, I got my first book published. And now I'm just gonna get books published. Like, that's the way it rolls. And of course, that doesn't happen either. Like every single one is still, you know, has to be great. It has to be ready to be published, it has to there has to be space in the market, there has to be all those other you know, everything has to kind of align and combined. So that's why so often, you know, writers in this country, in on average $12,000 A year from their writing, like it's ridiculous. I mean, there's a few outliers, but that's why so often they've got all the other hustles that they have, whether or not they're in writing, like any artists in this country, in fact, because we're so ridiculously and chronically underfunded and undervalued. But you know, that's why having this little bit of time where it has been, I have been able to do it because I got an advance for the book. So I have been able to just focus on writing and feel validated that I don't also have to take on every teaching gig and every workshop key you know, and because that's, that's really hard and that's the other side of the you know, Being an art monster, or, you know, being creative is that then you've got to also manage your own business, about that. And all everything that that comes along with that, which I think often too, is not instinctively where an artist strengths might be. Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, it's very hot, you know, and we want to collaborate, and we, and we want to do all the things and we want to be excited. And it's really hard to kind of insert yourself in there and say, Actually, but hang on, am I being paid for this? Or Hang on? How many hours? Is this gonna take me? Um, one of the things that one of my gangs do have women all have, we're all right, as we're all parents. And at certain times, we've written each other's like, hardcore emails for each other. Whether we're saying, no, actually, we need to be paid more than that, or this is how much I'm charging, because it's still so instinctively hard to do it yourself. I'm getting better at it. But it's still really hard to do it. To do it yourself. Yeah, so the business side of it is just an absolute mess. But I must say that having a my incredible agent on board now. And she's amazing, and she just no bullshit. And she does the, the bits that I both don't understand. And I have no energy for and she lets me in, which protects the time that I have then to write, which is what soulmates? Absolutely. Wow, that's awesome. So because you've written because, like you said, about getting your advance is that because you sorry, if I'm Hope I'm not being too personal. Like, no, no, go ask. This is what we should be doing. We should be talking about the business stuff. Yeah, really? Yeah. So did you have to present the idea for the book? And then they were so we really liked this. So we're gonna give you the funds to give you the time and space to create it? Yeah, what often happens is that you'll get sued by Agent took the mother fold out and took it to various publishers, and then the publishers all kind of, you know, I was in the fortunate spot to kind of have a number of bids in from different publishers. So then you kind of talk about it, you talk to everyone and see who's a good fit. And who's let's be very frank, who's got the most money. And at that stage, they'll often say, so people will often get contracted in a two book deal or a three book deal. So they'll say, What have you got next. And hilariously, we were off, and we were doing a trip around Australia to visit our mates who live up in the Kimberley. So we take him through, you know, eight weeks off, put the camper trailer on, we were way out in this remote community had very little phone reception. And I'm trying to like pitch my new book, which I hadn't written a word of. The second book is cut, it's kind of a little bit of this, it's kind of a little bit that so that's often what happens is that you kind of pitch a concept or, and some people really don't like being contracted, like some writers will say, Oh, the pressure of having a contract hanging over my head for the next book is too much. I can't write like that. I'm a bit of a deadline person. So I kind of like it. Having said that, I've already missed my deadline. So that's that's the way things go to. So I wanted to ask you about your podcast. Yes. The first time. It's funny. Do you get this a lot when people google it, they think it's about something else? Yes, yes. Yes, we do. We do. And in fact, there is another one which is about the which came after us. And of course, now we've now it's hilarious, because it's we're forcing we're about to start our fifth season next year. And we've also now you know, I'm up to publishing my third book, Katherine's publishing her second book. So the premise at the start was that it was about the first time you publish a book. And because Catherine was about to publish her, so we chat to each other about all the things you know, what do you do for a launch? The kinds of questions you're asking as well, like, how do you find an agent, you know, what's meant to cost? As well as interviewing Australian writers about their kind of the first time they published a book and what they've learned since which is, which has been nice. Yeah, cool. So you're gonna change the show to the third time that you've heard? Yeah, I know, we were like the first and subsequent times. And now we've got such a brand that I feel like we can't change it. But this year, or next year, we're actually going to, we're hoping to focus we got some really kind of, I talked to Maggie Chipstead, US writer who was shortlisted for the Booker Prize this year, and, you know, getting Helen Garner to speak, you know, we've kind of been begging our friends in the first season to like, Well, you talk to us to now. You know, all these books arrive every day the publishers are out. We get pitches all the time, we can't possibly fit on everyone who, you know, we've been asked to have. So it's this real switch. But you know, a bit like you I think I just I'm, I'm so obsessed and curious about how other people do the thing that they do and how they manage To make it work, and I'm like a bow burden. So I saw I still little bits of everyone's processes and ideas. And, and I just think it's incredibly, it's incredibly interesting. It's incredibly interesting to have those conversations with people. And, and also, I don't think I realized Katherine actually was at an event the other night, and she messaged me afterward. And she said, people really listened to us, like people really came up and said, like, it's really helpful. I really, you know, your voice is so familiar. And I think the beauty now of podcasting, and you would know this is that it feels you know, you forget that however, many people are going to download it later. And you just, you're very, you're sitting often now in your own home, and you're very intimate, and you're very frank. And then you forget sometimes, what you've said, when someone comes up to you are random, and oh, I loved what you said about this about your marriage. I'm like, shit, and I say that. But yeah, you know, I I've become, yeah, I've become really digital. I mean, my dream, my dream is that I get to write books. And then someone on the ABC gives me a show. And I can just talk to creatives about what they do. You know, and someone can pay me to do it. That's the That's the dream. Really, let's be frank Ellison. That is, that's my train. That's what I want to happen. That is so good. I love that anyone listening for the AV? Yeah. Give us by the show. I found the same thing. I, I found that mostly why I started this is I needed to find out other people's opinions on how not necessarily how to do the physical stuff. Because everyone's so different in there are different, you know, requirements or whatever, but how to change my perception about stuff because I was finding I was getting really challenged, being interrupted and that kind of thing, like, you know, having to having to look at things in a different way and needing to for my own sake, because it was I was just going to have to stop creating, because I just was too wound up and too, you know, almost resentful. That sounds horrible. Yes. But yeah, so I've really enjoyed hearing how other people do it how how they think about things. Yes. And how they, how they still meet their needs, but not at the expense of their own mothering. Yeah, so yeah, I've just love it. I think it's the range too, don't you think Allison that like I am? Have you read the divided heart? Oh, I interview? Yes. You have you? Yes, of course you did. You interviewed Rachel. That's how I knew about your podcast. You know, like, that was such a profound book. For me. I got that really early because someone recommended it to me. And then since then, I've read lots of this and and right, who's a writer, her extraordinary book on being a mother and all this, there's heaps, there's heaps and, and often you're drawn to those ones, too. Like I read all of them, for people who aren't parents as well. But I think it's the range of going, well, this person did it like that. And then this person didn't like that. It's so permission giving when you go, okay, I can be away from my children, and do my work that way. Or I can do it amidst the interruptions. And I can write a chapter on my phone while I'm doing, you know, there's no right way to do it. And I think in the end, sometimes I worry about my obsession with reading about other people's process, but then I'm like, no, because the more you read, the more expensive your idea of what it can be is. And yeah, so I'm totally there with you. It's made my practice so much better. And which is why it's so important that you know, and so amazing in such a generous kind of actor that you that you do this podcast, too, I think because it is. It's that talking about the unspoken or which, which, you know, there were there were people. Yeah, there were definitely people who, who let me know, I'll always remember a gorgeous friend, Amy, who messaged me on day three and said you might start crying today. And that's okay. And I have since then, I have always sent that message to people, you know, to because I was like, that was so incredibly helpful, that she told me that, you know, and then and I think that there is this act of and you have to know when to say it because you don't want to burst that gorgeous, pregnant, first time pregnancy bubble either for people but the sharing of stories and the way that women in particular share stories. What a lifeline that is. Oh, that's that's happened. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more and I think the rise of Social media of this showing this perfection this, you know, this beautiful staged photo like we're talking about the Christmas tree, you know? Yeah. Is that really reality? You know? Or if you've got that Christmas tree hidden in a different room where no one can tell you why can't we just be honest with each other and just getting rolled out like don't be afraid to, to share and I think that would help so much not just in, like what we've talked about, but also like the whole mental health thing like actually saying, Yeah, I had a lot of trouble. And now I'm going to use that to help everybody else. Yeah, it's just so powerful. And it's not incredibly ashamed often scared of and embarrassed about, you know, it's laugh and it's reality. And the more we talk about it, the better. No, absolutely. I get a bit precious I think sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And scared, scared. Scared of how scared of what people will think, you know, I can say this as a 40 something year old, but there's no way I would have said this 20 years ago, you know, yeah, like we're talking right back at the beginning about this judgment. Yeah, absolutely. What he has to start thinking like a 40 year old woman. Yes, we actually, oh, that's. So basically, I was gonna ask, what you've got coming up. I've actually got a couple of, I've got some great workshops that I'm teaching in the new year in 2022. And the first one is a kind of a kicking off your creative year. So it's for writers Victoria, I'll send you through the details. But it's a full day online workshop. So people can do it from wherever they are in Australia. And we're looking at it's for emerging, or mid I think it can be for anyone really, but just looking at ways to kind of really kick off the year going, how am I going to make space for my creative work in whatever kind of situation that I'm in that my my work and my family is in? And how I'm going to do that. So that is that's really fun. And yeah, people I mean, people can find I try and keep up to date on socials, I'm having a bit we're having our three weeks at the beach offline, which I'm just so excited and thrilled about. So January's always off. But yeah, podcasts new podcast season, coming up with the first time and then lots of lots of little events in the New Year as well. So and then the book eventually. You know what, now that now that I've spoken to you, I'm gonna read your books. And a big thing for me because I love that well, and you know, if you're if you are into audiobooks, I can highly recommend although I haven't listened to it myself, because it's just too weird and hard to do. But the gorgeous Claudia Karvan read the mother fault for Audible. Yeah, or audio book or whatever. And I got to talk to her quite a bit. She's really into it. And everyone who I know who's read it that way, has loved it. So that might be a way that works for you. That is definitely something I can do. Thank good. That's okay. That's it's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you. So, so lovely speaking to you, Allison. I feel like that's like been a debrief as well as just a little therapy session. Thank you as Digby, it was lovely to meet you, too. Are you in the middle of your first publishing experience long to get a deal for already been there and want to know how others experienced it? Maybe you're a writer, a reader, a lover of Australian fiction, this podcast is for you. Here's the deal. Adams first book, the helpline is hitting shelves in Australia very soon. And she has got some questions. Like how do I plan a launch party? What else should I expect? In the Green Room? If I get invited to a festival? Will I get invited to a festival? What if I get invited to a festival and no one shows up? Like my day job? Is my life gonna change? What does it feel like to have a bad review? Do I need to get my nails done to match my book cover? Should I be on Twitter more? And even though my first book skylarking came out a couple of years ago, and I can give Katherine some advice already has lots of our experiences that are vastly different. So we thought we'd cast the net a little wider. And ask some other Australian writers about that first time. I just ticked that box novel and started this incredible adventure. It's great to have a deadline to work towards you know, there's this tendency to obviously procrastinate or not even procrastinate. Just keep reworking and reworking and never really deciding that it's finished never pressing them and I distinctly remember the moment I got the idea for what With become the first novel, that moment is vivid in my mind full of those things had a choice, I write the story down or I go completely mad that first shortlisting that you get is just this amazing validation. And for some reason, it tends to happen when you're at your lowest point. And it always just kind of buoys you up, and allows you to keep going. There's three parts to being an artist of any sort, there's talent, there's hard work, and the third one ever forgets as luck, good luck, the lucky chance comes and you're not ready for your lucky chance, you're not gonna make it either. In each episode, we'll ask a writer to come clean on all the fields and the logistics of their first time, and will hone in on advice on a particular aspect of the publishing process. I'll also ask Catherine to update us on where she's at with her own adventure into the world of a debut novelist. Whether it's chatting to her editor, getting her social sorted, or speaking to an audience of booksellers, we are taking a bit of a risk here. We want to take you behind the scenes of the hype, and the instant deliciousness of the debut Experience and find out all the lows along with the highs. We're asking our guests to be candid, and to give us the warts and all of how it feels. And we don't know how it's gonna play out. But Katherine, Will her book end up on billboards at the airport? Will she hit the coveted top 10 On release? Will Hollywood come knocking? Or will As one writer attests the experience all be a little anticlimactic? subscribe via iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts and check out our website, the first time podcast.com or connect with us via Twitter and Instagram at the first time pod. And let us know about your first time and the questions you want answered. We look forward to getting into your ears. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Fleur Harris Australian illustrator +designer S2 Ep63 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts Fleur Harris is a painter, illustrator, product designer, collaborator and mother of her son living in Melbourne Australia. Her detailed illustration can be described as whimsical and wonderous, and Fleur aims to bring joy and happiness to others through her artwork. Fleur was always a drawer throughout school, winning awards and gaining the admiration of her peers. After studying Fine Arts, Illustration and Interior Design in Australia and Italy, Fleur has forged a career as a prolific artist and creative collaborator for over 20 years. After working in design houses for many years, Fleur began working for herself 6 years ago and now designs full time, although she doesn't see it as a job. Fleur has collaborated with brands such as TuTu de Monde and 12 collections with Adairs Kids since 2013. Fleur is a truly passionate creative soul. She values quality over quantity and attention to detail. Fleur believes strongly in animal welfare, social justice and kindness. These beliefs guide much of her design work, decision making and her drive to do her part to make the world a better place. Fleur also donates portions of her work, time and profits to charities that align with her values, most recently The Great Barrier Reef Foundation. through the Better Worlds Projects Through her imaginative designs, detailed illustrations and design sensibility, she has built an artistic world brimming with wonder, whimsy, inspirational creativity and happiness. Fleur's world is a place where imaginations run free and anything is possible Fleur is excited to launch her own label, " Fleur Harris " clothing range coming later this year and has many exciting projects coming up including collaborations with namely co, and Adairs Kids. Connect with Fleur website / instagram / linktree Podcast - instagram / website The Divided Heart - Motherhood and Creativity Rachel Power on the podcast Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is such a pleasure to welcome you. My guest today is FLIR Harris. Fleur is a painter, Illustrator, product designer, collaborator, and mother living in Melbourne, Australia. Her detailed illustration can be described as whimsical and wonderous and flow aims to bring joy and happiness to others through her artwork. Flow was always a draw throughout school, winning awards and gaining the admiration of her peers. After studying Fine Arts, illustration and interior design in Australia and Italy, Fleur has forged a career as a prolific artist and creative collaborator for over 20 years. After working in design houses for many years player began working for herself six years ago, and now designs full time. Although she doesn't see it as a job. Flo has collaborated with brands such as to to demand and it's released 12 collections with a dares kids since 2013. Flair is a truly passionate creative soul. She values quality over quantity and attention to detail. Flair believes strongly in animal welfare, social justice and kindness. These beliefs guide much of her design work, decision making and her drive to do her part to make the world a better place. Fleur also donates portions of her work time and profits to charities that align with her values. Most recently the Great Barrier Reef foundation through the better worlds projects. Through her imaginative designs detailed illustrations and design sensibility flow has built an artistic world brimming with wonder, whimsy, inspirational creativity, and happiness. Flers world is a place where imaginations run free, and anything is possible. Flair is excited to launch her own label clothing range coming later this year. And Fleur has many exciting projects coming up, including collaborations with namely code and today's kids. I really hope you enjoy today's podcast the music you'll hear is from my ambient music trio, LM J, which features myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband John. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Flo. It's an absolute pleasure to meet you. The pleasure is mine. Allison, thank you for having me. And thank you for hosting what I think is a really beautiful podcast. Oh, thank you. That's lovely if you decide so you're in Melbourne, is that right? That's right. Yes. Just out of the city. I live here with my husband and our little boy bales who's six years old. Six, that's a great age. I've got a six year old it's it is good fun. It's beautiful. I feel like we've hit our stride as a as a good little team. It's been lovely. So yeah, your weather today you'd be a bit overcast and rainy out there. Yeah, a bit overcast. we've still been out in the garden late this morning. That hasn't stopped us and a bit chilly. But I quite liked the Melbourne winters it's a nice still day and it's beautiful. Yeah. Might we live in Mount Gambier? So we're sort of halfway between Adelaide and Melbourne. So whatever whatever weather you guys get, we've sort of had it first and my pop used to live in our tiny house over there. And you know, the the beachside suburb and when he moved he moved over here and he said it was the weather was worse here it was colder he met Gambia and we used to think it would be worse in Melbourne like near the beach he'd be cold and windy and he said not met Gambia is hard for three really. I was surprised by that. But now China's our time is a good part of the world. We duck over there sometimes to go to the beach. Oh yeah. I love this. The Ice Cream Shop and fish and chip shop down there. Like neither force or Yeah, it's beautiful over there and Williams town. I love that part of the world. Yeah. Beautiful place yet. All right, so let's talk about your creativity and your beautiful artwork. Can you describe your art form, what you create and sort of what sort of mediums you use? Yeah, sure. Well, my personal work is quite diverse. So I do everything from oil painting to more craft style projects. I quite enjoy just, you know, sketching in my sketchbook when I used to have a sewing machine until it broke, I used to sew a lot, so little toys and clothes. And I've just always been a sort of a maker, I guess you would say, creative person that just likes to make things. But over the years, I've really honed in on my illustration, and a particular style of illustration, especially that's quite detailed and whimsical. And I've been fortunate that that has resonated with quite a wide audience. And it's meant that I've been able to focus on that full time. And I've been doing that for six years now. Working for myself out of my home studio, and I absolutely love it the best job in the entire world. And I had many years prior to that of working in house as an artist for different brands. I didn't textile design for different clothing companies used to work on swimwear and sleep wear and all sorts of products. And then I definitely did my time when I was at uni, you know, working in retail and that kind of thing. But my for the last 15 years, it's always been a creative role that I've worked in, and then work for myself here for the last six years. I've always freelanced as I've been working in other jobs too. I've just found that a really helpful creative outlet. While I've had a full time job, to be able to be working on other projects that are a bit different on the side, I always found really helpful. So, so yeah, that's great. So I have a studio set up at home. Here, which is where I am now I took over the I think this was actually the piano room when we when we moved into this house, I had a beautiful old blue piano in here. Oh. And it was sitting in front of this big stained stained glass, Windows or lead light Windows or other. And when I walked in here, and so there's be high ceilings and the windows and this piano, I just thought this is the space for me. And I that was when we're inspecting the house and I called my husband I said, I'm just just letting you know, I'm gonna put an offer in. And it was, it was pretty much because of this room. Nevermind the rest of the house. And it's actually turned out to be fantastic because we have beautiful neighbors and it's really changed our lives for the better. So I think that this space kind of definitely led us in the right direction to just to a better, more fulfilling life all around. And it's certainly been brilliant for my creative practice. So I've got everything in here. I've got drawers full of paints, and I've got drawers full of papers, and there's just it's a minefield of art materials. I love it. And my little boy my little boy loves it too. That's pretty cool. Yeah, I can see behind you've got a clothing rack with some beautiful, really beautiful colored dresses. And I can see like, what's that? Nice sort of, is it true? Yeah. Can you tell us? Yeah. Last year I did a collaboration with a beautiful brand from Sydney called to to demand and we collaborated to create a 40 piece. Children's luxury apparel and accessories collection. Oh wow. And what they do is really special. Their attention to detail is is pretty explicit and working with them. was a lot of fun and the garments that we created a very covetable, so I couldn't not pack them away. They have to be on display in here. It's like having things in a frame, isn't it? It's like it has to be out there and yeah. And everyone like everyone that comes in loves to poke around in my studio. And that's, that's definitely a section that gets a lot of attention. Oh, that's lovely. Yeah, I love the colors. It's like, sort of purples and pinks. And yeah, it's beautiful. And there's lots of beautiful beadwork. And yeah, yeah, yeah, it's pretty, pretty beautiful stuff that they make. So that was a that was a collaboration that I, you know, I really cherished and Yeah, lovely one to do. And they were actually, every now and then I'd go through a phase where I'd say, I'd say, Okay, I need to sit down, think about what do I want to do next. And I'd written up a bit of a list of my dream brands, and they were my dream brand to work with. So when that collaboration came to life, that was really special. Oh, that's awesome. It's almost like you manifested that, like he put it out there. And I'd say a combination of manifest and dog and hard work. Yes, you actually have to do something to make things happen. I'd love to hear you describe there that when you've you've got work that you're doing for a company or a client, that you've also got your own work that you do, it's like, you've got to have that balance of things that are meeting your own needs, as a creative, sort of whatever, whatever that may be. Is that something you've always sort of done been really mindful of, of keeping your own needs met in that way? I guess. Yeah, I, I would say that, it's something that never leaves me this desire to be creating something. And, you know, we might go on a family holiday, and I'll say, I'll leave my sketchbook at home, I'll just have a break from from it. And you know, I won't do any of that, I'll just have a rest. And then in a couple of hours of being wherever we're going, I'll be like, I'm just gonna go to the newsagent. And see if I can find that sketchbook. I learned I'm, you know, and then I get it out of my sister, and we can get on with our holiday, but it's something that it's, it's all it's always there for me this desire to make something and it's not so much for me about the end goal, necessarily, it's actually just the process that I really enjoy, I think, you know, it's just as satisfying for me to create marks on paper that might not sort of come to be anything that looks particularly nice. I enjoy that process itself as much as when I do create something that actually does turn out nicely, you know, and, and either way I see its value. Whether it's just, you know, exploring some mediums, and as you know, sometimes I'll start a painting and five minutes, and I'll just get this feeling like, Oh, this isn't working. And the process is just not feeling right. And so I just grab it out and walk away and, you know, leave it and I actually went through a phase would have been about 15 years ago, where I didn't paint for about two years, and just kind of didn't need to I didn't have the desire, I was doing other things. I was selling little toys and I was you know, my creativity was coming out elsewhere. And then when I finally one day, I just got this, like tsunami internally that was like, You need to go and paint and I sort of went on this Bender I remember having canvases all over the floor and it was almost the word furious might be a bit dramatic, but it was a flurry of, of paint brushes and paint, it was like it was like it had been sitting there dormant. And then one day just the lid came off. And I made a whole lot of art, this sort of series of artworks that were kind of unusual for me, but a lot of them are still hanging, my mom is always first to put her hand up for an artwork that's going that needs a home. So her house over love, and it's and she lives into state. And so when I got there, I forgot about that. Painting and you know, actually brings back a lot of memories of that time and kind of reminds me about, you know, the importance of just giving time to process and to making and not being fixated on the outcome. Because I know that if I was worried about the painting, because you know, and you make better sometimes that's all right. Yeah, I'm fine with that quite happy to make a bad artwork, it's just about getting the paint or the or the pencil or whatever it is done on paper, letting it come out of my head and out my arm. And then it's, it's out. Yeah, do you think being able to continue doing that gives you then when you sit down to design something for you know, ideas, or a collection of someone you're working with, that allows the ideas to flow freely, because you're not uninhibited by your creativity comes out. Yeah, and in a way I does, I've got a lot of a lot of it out of my system. And so when it does come down to sitting down and creating a really detailed out, you know, that can take months to make, it definitely makes me I think it gives an ease to, to other things that I'm working on. Because I have those other needs, if you like out of my system, you know, there have, I've looked after them. The great thing is, though, that I enjoy the process of making those really detailed artworks too. So it doesn't feel ever like, you know, I, I've got that fun part out the way now I have to do this to me. It's, it's no, I mean, it's it's definitely time consuming and requires, you know, a huge amount of focus. But I love that like to sit there I can sit for hours and hours and hours and draw. I remember there was a day in my studio, where I think I'd sit there for about seven hours. And after a while I thought oh my gosh, I haven't kind of like a woke up. I haven't been to the toilet, I thought it had been about seven hours. And I'd really just, you know, I can get lost in that process. And so to have you know, to be able to play with all the different mediums and and explore that in parallel with my illustration work. Cuz I think the best way for me to work as an artist, it keeps my skills keeps my skills up. I feel like I maintain my skills that way and it also keeps me How would I describe it? It keeps things fresh. I never get tired of of the work I'm doing. Yeah, because I have that variety. Yeah, absolutely. And when it is your full time job, even though I don't really see it as a job but when it is what I do full time. I think it is important to to keep that variety there so that it doesn't become too monotonous because I would I don't know what I'd do if the day came where I didn't enjoy doing this anymore. I can't see that come in because it's I think it's just part of who I am. But you know, cross that bridge when we come to it. I think I haven't got a I haven't got a plan B. I'll be I think it'd be a landscape gardener. I'd be quite heavily heavily, quite happy doing garden maintenance. Just being like a person that comes around and pulls weeds out of the garden would be very happy doing that. Your process that you use, you talked about your illustration, do you sort of do you draw it out on your paper first and then you create it on a, like an iPad or a computer program. Sometimes I will have a little sketch in a sketchbook or it's usually on a bit of like, a grab a bit of paper out of the printer. And I'll just sort of sketch out some stuff. And it's really rough at that point, usually, and then I just start working digitally straightaway, because for me, a lot of my artworks end up being used to create products. So whether it's wallpaper or fabrics for bedding, or apparel, they do need to be able to be worked with by whoever's producing that product. And so the the format that they need to be supplied in for those people is digital. So I just find that it's much more straightforward to just start the artwork digitally. But the concept itself will usually I usually feel it out very roughly on paper so rough, like nearly unrecognizable work, you look at it, and you think that person actually can't draw. It's just very, you know, to me, it makes sense in my head, what I'm scribbling down. Yeah, I can send I can show you if you like like a before and after. I'd love to actually, yeah, that'd be brilliant. Yeah, so yeah, so I'm really, I love your, your style of the things that you put in your artworks and do birds and, like, there's a cute little one of a little bunny with like little butterfly wings, which is suede. Sort of like you say that whimsical. Little. It's just, it's so what the word is, it's relaxing, I don't know if that's the right word, but it's very comforting. Like, it's sort of, that's beautiful. It doesn't, it doesn't challenge you and makes you feel really nice and warm. Oh, that's beautiful feedback. Allison, thank you, I love it. Because sometimes you just want something that just makes you feel good, don't you like, I know, sometimes, like I go to art galleries and look at things and get quiet, you know, things are quite profound and quite in your face, and you get like that challenging feeling. And sometimes it's just really nice to look at something that makes you feel good and makes you smile. Yeah, and it's incredibly powerful. Art is an incredibly powerful vehicle for sharing of opinions and, and can be a great vehicle for making change and, and bringing issues to the forefront of you know, people's minds. And I think that that is one of the most fantastic things about it. For me, what I choose to use my or like to use my artwork for is actually to bring joy and happiness. And that's my the way I see my contribution has been the most. That's what I want to be able to contribute with my art, certainly at this point in time. Maybe that will, you know, maybe later down the track, I might start to use it for for other purposes. But for now I'm really in this beautiful world of fairytales and whimsy and joy and happiness and the connections that I've made with people who relate or relate to that in the artwork. Very, you know, along the lines of what you just spoke about, I can't express what beautiful people it's brought into my life and beautiful conversations, you know, I hear from people with them, telling me what the app has meant to them. And especially during difficult times where it's brought them comfort and hope even. And to me that is just more than I could ever ask for to be able to contribute to people's lives in that way. And I think it's I feel it's a very special thing to be able to do. And so I love to be able to nurture that and particularly to be able to share that with a wide age range of people. So while a lot of my work is the products are geared towards children, I do hear from adults and you know, people in older generations who have been moved or or connected with the artwork in some positive way. And I really and that's globally to you know, hear from people all around the world. And that is Just such that gives me such pause for thought about, you know, okay, what I'm doing is actually really important to people and I feel a deep sense of, you know, I take that seriously. It's a joy. It's a joyful seriousness. It's not lost on you. Not at all. Not at all. And it's at front of mine, when I'm creating artworks is, you know, Will this bring wonder and whimsy and joy to people? And that's almost sort of like the as a called a litmus litmus test. Yeah. Yes. And so yeah, I feel really fortunate to be in this space where there's this beautiful community of people around me that have been drawn in by the artwork and yeah, we all we all share in this sort of very kind and calm, you know, narrative together. It's lovely, if you if you did look through, you know, comments on my social media page on Instagram, people do everyone to my artwork, I just so lovely, you know, they are so forth. kind words and, and I just think I'm very grateful for that. Now, good on you. I think that's lovely. Because I don't know, there's so much crap going on in the world. Like, you know, there's stuff happening overseas and all these big powerful men going out at each other with bombs and thinking, I don't know, it's just lovely to just be in your own little world and feel good about things. And I, I really love there's a, there's a picture that you put up only must have been yesterday of just the image of Two little birds and a butterfly and sitting amongst these lovely flowers and leaves. And I'm really, really drawn to birds. That's just something I don't know. And even when I'm out walking, when I see birds, I think particularly think of particular relatives and people that have passed away. And whenever I see birds, I just go, oh, there's something really comforting. I don't know about birds, I just made me feel really secure and safe. And that's beautiful after. To me they are like little magic folks that are flitting about in the trees. I mean, they can fly. And they sing. I mean, yeah, it's pretty cool. To be a bird, like, even if just for a day. Yeah, that post was was interesting. I had some people message me privately about that some really beautiful messages as well, I think. Because the comment that, you know, I put with it was about had, the purpose of posting the artwork was to offer a moment of calm in what feels like at the moment is particularly, you know, a very busy world with a lot going on. And there's a lot of noise and a lot of it's quite unpleasant. You know, I personally find watching the news, I just mean, quiet despair, sometimes. Some of the stuff that's going on, and I just ponder, you know, as humans, we'll have to see what are we doing? about so many things. And, you know, I, I think that we can all make a difference and that the power of collective effort is important to never underestimate. I think, when I do see that, you know, there's awful things happening in the world, it gives me even more motivation to try to paint the kind of world that I want to live in. And that's a world of kindness and peacefulness and an empathy for each other. And a world of imagination, where we, you know, we have fun and we, yeah, we basically and we be, you know, we, we get carried away with our imaginations and it's so serious, you know, it's like, yeah, it's with butterfly wings, and you can have little creatures going along in boats in the air and, you know, it can just be whatever it needs to be. Yeah. And if that's, you know, to me, that is, I think, Okay, well, those people over there are gonna do that terrible stuff. You know, it's the wars and awful things that are happening, I think, well, I I'm gonna keep flying the flag for kindness and goodness. And you know, well, I don't have the stages of these people doing awful things. I do. I do. I do recognize that. There is a place for for what I'm doing in it and an audience for it because I think people do are drawn to kindness and good things, especially when all that awful stuff was going on. I think it's really lovely to because of where you're where your art appears, you know, it's on things that you can bring into your home. So like you said, it's on the wallpaper, it's on the bedspreads. It's on clothing or cushions, like you can surround yourself with that. So it's not just, you know, an image in a frame, you can actually, you know, make yourself comfortable with with that around you. Okay, that's pretty profound. Absolutely. And for children, especially, I mean, for me to my, my bed is one of my favorite places of getting into bed. Learn it's such a safe space, you know? Well, it is hopefully for most children, and it certainly should be a safe space and a place of comfort and to be able to, you know, help surround them with with beautiful things that will, will be, you know, perhaps the backdrop to their treasured childhood memories is something I don't take for granted at all, I think about when I grew up the doona covers in my life really stuck stick with me. I had a, I had the kintone doing a cover with the big butterflies and, and that, you know, is clear as day in my mind, and then my mom one day went ahead and decked out our room like, head to toe in this Laura Ashley, you know, the curtains and the wolfberries and the picture Owl and the whole shebang? Oh, my gosh, I loved it. And, and that print, you know, it was the same print on everything, the curtains and the dooner and everything. And that, that visual of that, that bedroom is such a big part of my childhood memories. And so to, to think that my artwork may also, you know, form that, you know, become part of special memories for people who will one day be grownups doing wonderful things in the world is, is pretty incredible to sort of try and get my head around. It's massive, isn't it? Good for you, that's just too beautiful attitude to have a lover Good on you? Have you always been able to draw that well? Or did you have to do lots of practice? Or does it just come naturally to you? I'm always practicing. And there's definitely different techniques where I produce better work than with other techniques. And it changes you know, I used to be a really good painter with acrylic paints and now and I use acrylic paints that just feels like I'm almost starting again. I don't use them very much anymore. But it's funny actually, because I was looking for some stuff. And I ended up going through an old file and I found, you know, like awards from primary school. And, you know, there's an award to me that's like the Picasso or the you know, I think it's definitely been something that was always my theme. Like its primary school, you know, like, oh, Fleur, she's the one that can draw. You know? It's it's funny kids. My, my memory in primary school is keeps held drawing on a pedestal like being able to draw is like a really cool thing. Yeah, yeah. Are you such a good drawer? It was always. Yeah, it keeps me sane. I don't know where that sort of falls off a bit. But kids and kids were really into celebrating people who are good at drawing. I was always like, pretty chuffed about. So yeah, it's something I look, I've always enjoyed it. And so I think as a result, I've done it a lot. And so that has meant, you know, yeah, you've refined and honed over the years by by default. I've had this Yeah, yeah. But I'm always practicing. It's the kind of thing where if you if you drop it for a bit you can when you finally get back to it feel a bit rusty. And so it's not like I don't really see it as being like riding a bike where you kind of never lose that skill. I do think it's something that needs to be maintained. So yeah, unfortunately that by working in it all the time, I'm always practicing. Yep, Now that's really cool. That that's something I'm discovering, because I'm not an artist by any means. But I like painting and fiddling around. And it's like, I realized you actually have to practice at it. Like, you can't expect to be good at it like, oh, I mean, there are people like, obviously yourself, you've always been able to draw, but it's like, I want to be able to draw, and I can't say that annoys me. Well, it depends what what sort of level of expectation, I've got pretty high, I've got pretty high levels of expectation where maybe we can have an online zoom during class. Give me a few little Oh, man, that'd be amazing. Because my touring is just rubbish. It's like, I'm sure it's not Oh, no, really? Seriously? No, I think I think anyone can do it. It's not like, like, the gift you have. It's very, you know, you need to feel secure, you can't this kind of black and white. And, you know, straightaway which one it is. Whereas withdrawing, you know, it's, it's a little bit more subjective. And there is a bit more wiggle room for, you know, being expressive and that not having having to look really steep, and all sorts of styles. Great, you know, yeah. Whereas I certainly will never be on the stage with a microphone. And thank goodness, so hopefully, hopefully in the room. You won't be going to karaoke. I actually don't mind karaoke. But even still, I know my limits so turning to your, yourself, you mentioned before that he likes to come into the studio does he does he take on your creativity as well? In little bursts. So he's like me with my painting break for two years, he might have a few weeks where he's just not interested in drawing or anything like that. And then suddenly, it's on you know, he just wants to be with me in here and writing stories and drawing pictures and, and I just facilitate that when he says that he wants that it's never something that I've tried to say, you know, come and sit with me, I'm gonna give you an art lesson or anything like that. I've always made it available to him, you know, if you want to do this, let's do it together. But I certainly have never tried to impress upon him my passions, but I've always made available to him. You know, what I do? In the materials, I have to do it and my passion for it. He knows they're always here, if he wants to, you know, get stuck into it. And when he does it, it's really special. Yeah, I've got up here on on my wall, little drawing I did of him. Well, he's a rabbit in the drawing, but of him as going after his first day of school. And he then came in, he's like, Can you can you do one of those for me, and I'll color it in. So I've got his little version next to it. In his little coloring, and next to my one of him, you know, drawing of him was beautiful little sweet things around my studio that he's drawn. Yeah. And we've got his little gallery in the hallway where we make sure we really celebrate any effort he makes creatively, you know, whether it's it all goes up on the wall, so that, you know, he feels confident in expressing himself in that way. Hmm. And like you said before, about things don't have to be for the end result. You know, I think a lot of times, I've my backgrounds in early childhood education, and I've seen over the years people, you know, almost judge little people's work, because it doesn't look how an adult thinks it should look, you know, which is incredibly damaging for a child. You know, it's about what they've made. And, and that's the end of it. You know, it's sort of about how we judge it through our eyes. Yeah, well, it's very reflective of their developmental process, especially in those early years up to seven years old, where there are sort of known stages that the children go through where they're exploring, you know, their understanding of shape and interpreting symbols and things like that. So I've always just felt it's important to encourage children as long as they're making an effort whatnot, well, let me say that again. I'm always I feel it's important to encourage children and celebrate whatever effort they make. Yeah, that's easy. It's not about judging, judging, it's about, you've done this. And that's fantastic. You know, like, I've got all around my studio, I have pictures the boys have made over the years. And some of it might just be, you know, a swipe of paint on a little piece of paper, but it's the meaning for it behind me, like my sorry, the meaning behind it. For me, it's like, and I get so inspired by that, because they're unencumbered in their creativity they're making because they're making something they're not thinking about what other people are going to think about this. And that's where I get stuck in my head when I attempt to do any sort of painting. So I find that really inspires me having their little pieces around me. Yeah. That they create. Gently without inhibition, that is the goal of as a grown up artist to be able to create that. And so I would never want to do anything that got in the way of that, you know, they hate my son has that now, and most children start with that, and I want to make sure it, I'll do what I can to nurture that. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. To not take that away or not. Not damping out that little light. Yeah, yeah, it's so precious. And I mean, just watching my son draw, I mean, seeing his little hand around the pencils enough, just to, you know, melts my hand. Just so beautiful to watch. And to then, you know, see how pleased he is when we pop something up on the on the wall. It's just, how could I not? See, it is it special for them to realize that what they're doing has meaning and other people appreciate it. And they're important, you know, they're seen, and they're valued. I'm getting, getting goosebumps now saying all that. But you know, it's just, it's so important, you know, that they feel like that they have a voice and, and they value their value. They don't use those words. But, you know, that's how they feel. Absolutely. And I also think that they have admirable imaginations. So the things that they come up with, I could only ever dream of still being able to come up with. And so I just don't mean or of what of their imaginations. And so I also love to just sort of observe what comes rather than my son's mind as he's drawing. You know, there's a new drawing that he's got on the wall, he found a bit of cotton wall, in my studio, and he stuck it to the page and created this character, Mr. kloudio. And Mr. kloudio is a magician and everything in his world is made out of magic wands. So he's got, you know, a chair made out of magic wands, and then his hats made out of magic wands, and I just, I love is the kloudio book character. Yeah, I feel really privileged to be, you know, have someone in my life that you know, has this amazing brain on them and all children have that capacity? And I think I think we are wise to celebrate that. Absolutely. Yes. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom I was naming. So on that, do you find yourself? I guess this can be for either the work that you're doing for clients or your own work? Do you get inspired by that? Sort of, does that give you sort of the feeling to let yourself go to with your creativity? Yes, absolutely. And I will often reflect on my own childhood and what things excited me and caused me to have my imagination run away on itself, and then they're the sorts of things that I then like to include in my artwork. So that inspiration of imaginative thinking is is what I like to try and encourage through my work in hence why I love you know, creating characters like the bunny has the butterfly wings. To me, that is just odd. I would have loved as a kid to find something like that in my garden, like, you know, and I. And as a kid, I thought that that was really possible, you know, and so, and the thought of things, berries was absolutely possible. And that just filled my days with hope, you know, peering through bushes and hoping to see that little twinkle that would, would be a fairy and like, the excitement and anticipation that that gave me it was just so delightful. And so I think about those feelings when I create my artwork and and what type of themes will inspire that same sort of delight? Yeah. Did you find that after you had your son, that things sort of changed, like, was that more intense, or the things that inspired you change slightly, when you became a mum, I would say that the whole reason that I'm doing what I'm doing is because because of my son, so when, when I found out that I was pregnant, I was working for a company, and I was about seven weeks pregnant. And I thought I've ever I'm going to go out on my own, I feel like this is the time because I'm going to, if I go on Matt leave, I'd be trying to start working for myself while having a newborn baby. And I couldn't see how that was going to work. So I thought, I'm probably best to use this time, while I'm pregnant, to start. Start working on, you know, being an artist that works for myself. And so I quit my job, and I just started came home. And I had a few weeks of like, Oh, dear, what have I done? I just threw away my mat leave, and I have no job. And I'm pregnant, right? I really got got myself in a situation here. And I think actually, that the the potential disaster situation I had put my self in, actually inspired me to really give it a good go. And so I guess I laid a lot of groundwork in that time while I was pregnant, so that once my baby was born, I would have a business started that I could nurture on my own terms, as I was, you know, learning how to be a mum. Rather than worry about, you know, for me, I didn't want to have to worry about how am I going to get back to work, you know, part time and the logistics of all that sort of stuff. I thought, not knowing myself. And what was going to work for me, if I was to be the best mom, I could be I thought working for myself was going to be the best option. And so, because, you know, I had a couple of weeks where I was making jams and doing some domestic things. And then I thought, okay, got that out of the way. Now I need to, I'm going to sit down and I'm just going to make some art that is really true to me. I've spent all these years working for different companies making the art they want me to make. And I just created with that reckless abandon If you lie, and reflected deeply on my own childhood, and that inspired the woodlands artwork. And so that was the first sort of big artwork I created in that time after I'd quit my job and, and I was pregnant, and I didn't know what was going to become of that artwork. Yeah. That particular artwork opened a lot of doors for me and has become very popular and he's had a timelessness about it that has meant, you know, it's enduring and is still loved by people all around the world. You know, we released it as a bedding collection with the dares. Four years ago, we're in our fifth year of working together now and they still sell that same original bedding collection because people really love it. And that has just been such an incredible experience to to see what happens when you do really just create in a way that's really true to yourself, to then see, to get that sort of response really form really gave me a lot of confidence in I guess, you know, believing in myself and believing in my abilities and brought home for me the importance of being true to yourself and not just in a creative way. And so that has, has really, you know, that then opened up this world of artworks that I've gone on to create sense ideas and I've done 12 collections together now. And there's lots of really exciting stuff in the pipeline, I just joined up with a fantastic brand agency last November, and they've, they've got me very busy. Which is good. Just getting my head around this new world of, you know, being pulled in lots of directions. And while also you know, needing to have being a mom as a priority, it's it's kind of new territory, territory for me being sort of this busy and being a mom. I am really fortunate though, that I have the most incredible husband, who is so supportive of me and my work and his best dad and he really keeps this ship afloat. It will be remiss of me not to acknowledge him and and that's not without huge effort on his behalf. He works full time too. He's got a job that keeps him really busy as well. But I think we make it really good team and between us we you know, we manage manage life, just the three of us because we don't have our parents around giving us a hand. Unfortunately, my my dad passed away 15 years ago, and my mom was interstate and my husband's parents are down on the Mornington peninsular, often traveling so it really is just us. But we yeah, we might work and much, much of that is due to his title. He's just a legend. I can't speak more highly. I'm really, yeah, he's great. I owe a lot of, you know, being able to do what I do to, to him and also to my son because they, you know, when I do need space and time to get work done, they're really incredible about it. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. And it's important, isn't it that, you know, you're valued. For what you do as a person, you know, I find a lot of stuff we talk about on this show is, you know, you're often seen as the mum that just does stuff for your family. So it's, it's brilliant, that, you know, obviously, you're more than that. And this, they can see that and they're helping you nurture that side of you too, which is really awesome. I think I agree. And I think I think my husband knows though that if I if I couldn't make my art, I probably wouldn't be a very happy person and then probably not as good a month. So I think he understands me, he understands me and understands that you know, this is actually a side of me and my personality and my soul that actually needs to be looked after and given time. And you know, he has things in his life that he you know, does as well that keep him balanced like particularly with exercise and things like that that he's really into and because he does understand that about me that's even more meaningful to me actually that he does really get that I've had to explain it to him but you know and they really got it he gets the it's cool so there's a couple of topics that I like to delve into on each of my episodes. Mum guilt and about identity. So with mum guilt. I know everybody either experiences or doesn't experiences or has their opinions about it and their thoughts. What's your take on molecule So I have a confession to make on mum guilt. And that is that I have heard of the word but I'm not, it's not a word that's really in my vernacular, or my, you know, my friends don't use it. And so I'm wasn't really confident in its true meaning. So I had to google it before I came on here, because I thought I'd need to get worded up just on what it is where to look, to be honest, I, I've never really felt particularly guilty about anything that I have or haven't done as a mom, because the one thing I am sure of is, I always try my best to do my best. And I'm certainly not a perfect mom, but my intentions are always for the best outcome for my son. And I do think that parenting is a learning process, you know, I didn't I never read any books or blogs or anything on parenting, I just kind of intentionally stayed away from a lot of that, I just sort of wanted to feel it out for myself, unfortunately, I've got a beautiful sister who she'd had her first child, six months before me. And then my brother had also had his first child, three months before me. So we all had our first baby within six months. And I kind of would just, yeah, it was beautiful. Now there's this, you know, free little cousins, these little boys that are all, you know, who love each other very much and close in age. It's really gorgeous. And for me that they were who I would, you know, check in with if I had questions or things like that. So? Yeah, look, I can't say that mom guilt is something it's actually ever really been on my radar too much. I certainly, I would say I have to be mindful of how much time I spend working. And, you know, I try to make sure that when my son gets home, like my studios, the first room on the left when he come into our house, and I love that, you know, when he comes home from school, if, if I haven't picked him up, usually I do pick him up. But if I haven't, you know, he'll make a beeline for this room. And we'll have a big hug, and I'll stop what I'm doing. And we'll you know, and then if I need to keep working, I'll either say to my husband, I need to do a little bit of extra work for half an hour or whatever. But I try to not let it extend much beyond that. If I can kind of do pens down when he gets home so that we can hang out. But yeah, I don't I don't know if that's disappointing that I don't have a lot to sort of offer on the mum, the mum guilty. And if anything, I I think I feel a bit sad that there's a word like that. Question, because I do feel like a word like that could offer a slippery slope for some people. Because if I'm having mom guilt, about what and where do you draw the line of you know, how much of something whatever it is time to you. So Mum guilt about how much? I don't know, where do you draw the line? Do you end up becoming paranoid that? I think isn't it? Yeah, I realized that taking taking time for myself is important. And, you know, a couple of times, I've said to my husband, you know what, I'm gonna go and get a hotel room in the city. And I'm gonna go out for dinner by myself, and I'll be home tomorrow. Look, I've only done it a couple of times, but it's been at those points where I've thought, oh my gosh, I am I'm really maxed out here, like, stress wise, or, you know, and I've gone and done that. And I've thought I haven't felt guilty but I actually need is for the sake of, you know, my sanity and and also, I'll come back, you know, better. And I almost feel like not doing those sorts of things is actually would actually be remiss of me in being a good member of my family and a good mom. So same with with exercise, you know, my husband I both prioritize giving each other time to exercise each day because we know that for it's important to burn off all that cortisol and keep your stress levels down and I think we're much happier for it and it's just kind of about negotiating times and and you know, taking over the reins on the domestic duties that we get those things done, as I think we both realized that that, that time to look after ourselves is important for us to be the best parents that we can be. And best, you know, husband and wife to each other to you know, it's not just about our son. Yeah, exactly. It's the whole package. Yeah, like you said, we were talking, I don't know if I'd press record yet or not. But we're talking there, hey, you feel like you've got a really good unit. It's like, you all exist, the three of you together, and it's not you're not isolated as making you. This makes you a better mom, this makes you better part of a unit. And you all have those feelings, I suppose that things contribute to making you feel like you're better part of that unit. So yeah, I definitely enjoy. And I think that it's not just about the mum stuff. Totally, I feel like we've got, you know, we're a great little female family. And I think that's because my husband and I put a conscious effort into doing things that that make it that way. You know, we always talk about how we're spending time, each day or on the weekend, like we'll say to each other. What do you need to get done this weekend is usually our first question to each other. And that that could be anything from like, leftover work that needs being tended to, or my husband just might really want to get in the garden and plant some seeds or, you know, whatever it is, he might want times, but he is an amazing Baker. And he he is is on a bit of a fruit life Bender at the moment. So he'll and that requires quite a bit of time, you know, it's gonna Yeah, the Eastern is starter, and all the things that that needs time. And so we often check in with each other. What do you want to get done this weekend around that, you know, to make sure everything gets done, and then that includes as well, whatever's going on with our son or whatever we think, you know, he might be needing pets, there's a lot of a lot of kind of negotiating in terms of, you know, how we plan and spend our time and making sure everyone's kind of what they need out of life. Really. Yeah, you know, if my husband wants to go hang out with his friends at the footy, and he'll give me that heads up. And I know that that's, you know, important for him to do and go and have that time with his friends. And I much prefer he go does it at the football ground at the MCG rather than at home because he gets quite stressed. I don't really want to be found anyway. So it's really like my dad, my God. It's something I just don't get either. You know, I'm not, I'm not a sports person. You know, it's when the sports part of the news comes on. That's my cue to life. Which I don't care. I have this little sort of, I wouldn't call it quite a chip on my shoulder. But I'm like, Why isn't there an Art section on the news? You know? Why is it all this? Awful? And cricket? I mean, come on, like, there's others. Right stuff going on? Why is it just like, first part is bad news. And then the second part is, who's what guys are kicking a ball around? Like, is that really what we've got? Yeah, the two choices you get. But did that annoy you then this is something that really got me frustrated through the pandemic, when in particular, you guys over there you you did it a lot harder than we did here with your lockdown for, you know, I don't know how many days it was, but it was big, that the sport kept going, and they get to keep traveling around the country and doing whatever they liked. But all that stopped and I don't know, that really annoyed me. Do you know I? Strangely, it's almost a little bit like a like, for me, that newborn phase of being a mom is a bit like a blur to me. I almost feel a bit the same about the lock downs. Yeah. Like when I think back, I'm trying to reflect on what you're talking about. I'm like, I don't even remember was this spot on? You know, I don't know. I think because we're all just kind of getting our head around, like, oh my gosh, what is happening? You know, like, it's this, this real? And so it just is like, you were living it whereas we were watching you guys live it like we you know, maybe that's why because because you're in the trenches dealing with it, you know, that could be why that? I don't know it was maybe it was just a survival of, you know, trying to stay sane. Part of me maybe it's just locked in section of it. I will say though, that there was parts about that lock down that I'm grateful for like, you know, we had some pretty beautiful family times. You know, we had to be inventive about how we had fun and how we, you know, spent time together and it to still enjoy ourselves and we came up with things we otherwise wouldn't have done. And so I do try to look back on that period as something that you know, I try to see the good in it because to look back on it with any sort of not regret, that's not the word to look back on it and annoyed about it. Skills doesn't do anyone any favors. So I try and see the good in it. Plus, I did enjoy. I don't love crafts, and I went into the city last night to see the amazing clay, Dorian Gray, the Art Center and was really good. And he was absolutely pumping and packed. And in my head, I was just like, oh, I want to get out of here like I did. I did like that quiet, but the lockdown actually offered. But boy, I'm certainly glad that you know, we're getting back to a type of normal to Yeah, that's it isn't it? All right, well, the other the other lovely topic I talked about is identity. And, again, this is completely individual to everyone. So everyone's take on this is different, too, which is good. Whether you sort of had a shift in the way you saw yourself, either positively or negatively, or how the concept of your own identity might have changed when you did become a mum. That's a really interesting one to think about. Because I feel like it was a it was a it's been a slow burn. And I feel like it's an evolving shifting identity because a mum of a newborn is a different mum to a mum of a six year old, in my experience, there's different there's different different things you have to navigate. And so what becomes you know, your focus is ever changing. And I feel like with that, you know, you're you're ever changing to kind of keep up with it as well. But I do remember having this was literally like a sliding door moment when because I was induced for my labor because I had a lot of anxiety around giving birth. And I was booked in to go and had my baby. And I remember walking out the front door of our house. And as I was walking towards the door, opening it and thinking, this is the last time I'll leave this house, not as a mum and shutting the door behind me and sort of thinking like that, like it really felt like closing a chapter. That was there's something really sad about that it felt like saying sort of goodbye to a part of myself, and myself. That was all I knew up until till that point. And but being very open to what lie ahead, but also slightly terrified. And then next thing you know, there's this little baby bear that you're you're responsible for, and oh my gosh, I can't even articulate the identity shift. Like it's, and I think, look, I can speak about it from an artist point of view because being an artist, or being a creative person has always been such a big part of my identity. And for me, that has always taken up a lot of time in my life. And so to then have that time less available because you know, a newborn is one is all consuming and trying to come to terms with that part of me being just maybe on hold for a little bit. But even still, I was I sort of I couldn't I couldn't keep it on hold for very long. You know, I was having meetings with clients fairly soon after and they'd come over because then you're not long ago I had a baby and I'd be sitting on the couch breastfeeding, you know, little two month old bye Maybe while we're having meetings about, you know, different stuff and the clients I had at the time, were awesome about it, actually, they were really supportive of, you know, me wanting to get back to work. And I felt really empowered actually working in and feeding a baby at the same time. Yeah, yeah, I remember, I remember taking bales on a photo shoot, that I was styling and producing. And I had him strapped to me and I was carrying around props. And I remember just thinking like, this is actually fun. Like, I'm actually I can work and have this baby and take care of him and be still being creative. And so I sort of just ease back into it, like, you know, one bit at a time and but I was quite quick to do that. But I didn't take a long break without making any art or doing anything creative at all. And I just sort of had to do it in a way where I sort of explored what was and wasn't possible with him. Yep. You know, I've got a I don't know why must have come up as a must have come up with a phone memory. A photo of bales in his little bouncer next to me while I'm hot glue gunning a hydrangea spike hydrangea to a headband for you for a headpiece for a friend. And I just thought, you know, that's actually looked back on that photo quite fondly, you know that I was still able to keep being creative and it's wasn't without its challenges. There were certainly would have been times of frustration, but they don't stick out in my memory. Yeah. I don't look back on that time as as being particularly challenging, but I don't I'm not suggesting that it wasn't. Yeah, it just doesn't stick out that way. Yeah, yeah. Because I think I feel like with parenting I can do I don't know if what your thoughts on this are, but you do tend to just remember the the parts you know, this, say having a newborn that's so hard. And there'd be times I remember where I was like, oh my god, like, is this day really happening? Could it be any worse, but they're not the days that stick out? It's the loves what sort of stick with me from those those times? So, yeah, so my identity, I think has I'd say I work pretty hard to try and maintain my sense of self, my creative sense of self. And that's had to be a conscious effort because Because being a parent is you know, becomes such a big focus to keep that creativity alive and nurtured you know, did require some conscious effort and planning. But I've certainly found it to be possible did you sort of have any thoughts or expectations of how the two worlds would coexist the day to day parenting and the creative work? Well, I was recommended. One book actually called I think it was called you probably know it. Motherhood and creativity is that well, it's home Rachel power of the divided heart. I think so. It's got all the like Clare Bowditch different creative people in it is that's cool. I had Rachel on that episode last season, because we've been recommending me this book. I've never read it. And I've felt really embarrassed that I'd never read it because it's amazing. And I can understand why it resonated with so many people. So I messaged her on Instagram and said, Can I have you on my podcast? And she came on and it was amazing. And it's one of the one of the most like amazing moments like that. Yeah. But yes, I know. A wonderful book. I'm sure a lot of people listening know the book, too. Yeah, so I did read that. Now. To be honest, I can't remember whether I read it before after I had had my son. But I look, I know that book had a lot more to offer than this. But at the time, my biggest take out from it was it sounds like I'm gonna need a nanny because I kept reading all these success stories of these creative women getting on with the creative practice. But there would seem to be many of those stories, you know, like a nanny or someone kind of. And at that time, I thought, Oh, I don't know, the thought of, I've never, I've never grown up with having a nanny, or, you know, it would just sort of wasn't kind of on my radar. So, it what that did though was it gave me the confidence and maybe green light, if you like, if I'd had any hesitation to, to get help, you know, I would have people come and look after my son, you know, that I would pay to come and look after him so I could get on with my work. And I did, that book did make me realize that that was, you know, perhaps as part of the reality of what might need to be done at certain times, if you do want to get on with your work. And look, my memory of that book is a little a little fuzzy, because it was some time ago that I read it. So I hope I'm not misrepresenting it. When I'm speaking about it, but that was my my biggest take out was that, you know, getting help is you know, was caring for your child is okay. And, yeah. And, you know, perhaps essential in the world that we live in, and with how, you know, our society is generally the primary carer and, and so on, you'd have expected that you take to village kind of philosophies from previous generations. Yeah. And when you don't have like, that much of a village around you, like I mentioned, you know, our parents are, you know, geographically away from us. You eat sometimes just might have to rent a village. Yeah. But, you know, that sort of gave me that, I don't want to say permission, but the reassurance that, you know, you don't have to do it all yourself, and you can, you can ask for help. And whether that's, you know, in people's situations are different, whether it's, you know, like you said, you can you, you pay someone to come in, or you've got your neighbor or whatever, it's, I think we've lost that feeling that we can ask for help. I think we've become a lot more insular in this, you know, particularly our generation that you've got to do it all yourself, you've got to be the super mum that handles everything. And then if you don't get it, right, oh, no, you haven't been a good mum, you know, whereas my mum, you know, they, they asked the neighbor to babysit, or, you know, it's changed a lot. Yeah, and I think that's it What have you got coming up that you can share that you're working on or anything that's, that's coming out in the future? Well, lots actually, it's been a very busy, very busy year. And the tricky thing with my work is often you know, I'm working six to sometimes 12 months in advance of when things actually coming to life. So I have to keep a lot of stuff, you know, quiet for a long time. And when I'm so excited about it can be really hard. But I've got some great things coming to life. So I've just worked on a beautiful collaboration with namely co so they do beautiful, custom knitted blankets and some beautiful little apparel pieces. And so we've done flow Harris, namely ko collaboration that is coming out very soon. And the team behind namely, is just fantastic. And I've been really enjoying that, you know, collaborative process with them. I've been really fortunate in general, actually, that the partners that I work with are such nice people and very clever and very creative and wonderful collaborators so that it's often a very joyful experience. So that's a really exciting collaboration that is coming out soon. And what is really massive news to me is that I'm launching my own label. So Fleur Harris, will be stocked in David Jones. come October. I've worked with him. Thank you. I've worked with an amazing team. To bring this to life. It's been months and months and months of hard work. Hard but fun work if it's been the most fantastic process and we've designed it is the most beautiful looking and beautiful quality apparel for babies up to eight years old. It's really exciting. And so that's that's kind of a milestone moment for me in my career. Because typically, I've always, you know, released, designed and release products through collaborations, whereas this is completely under my own name. So it's a big stepping stone and a little bit scary, but also very exciting because the product is so beautiful. So well done. Oh, thank you, thank you, it still doesn't feel real. So I think it won't be until I go in to David Jones and see it on the shelf that I'll be like, Oh, my gosh, there's a flyer section in Davy Jones, I can't believe another really exciting news is that Adairs kids and I are celebrating being in our fifth year of our collaboration together. And so we are re releasing some of the most popular prints, there's some new colorways there's some new products being added to some of the like, the more iconic collections, like the woodlands collection, we've got some new pieces coming out in that we've done a whole new photo shoots. And it's really nice to kind of just take a moment to pause and stop and celebrate, you know, what we've achieved together. And because it's not often that collaborations lasts so long, and it's so endearing. So to have built that relationship with them and created this world of beautiful products, children together is so nice to stop and celebrate, you know? Yeah. And I think that's something we don't do, too. We don't, we don't, I think we feel like we shouldn't, we shouldn't have that ego, to be proud of ourselves or celebrate, but definitely have to celebrate moments like that. It's easy to sometimes not be able to find the moment, you know, because because often different projects or different things you've got going on in your life happen in stages, you know, and so it can be hard to work out well, when is our champagne moment. And so it feels nice that we've actually decided to sort of mark that, that milestone and, and be grateful for it and happy about it. So that's really nice to be able to do to take stock in, you know, reflect on that. And they always do things in a really beautiful way. So I've had a peek at the photoshoot that they've put together, where they're actually mashed up quite a few different collections and put them all on in this one sheet. So this is one bed that's kind of got a bit of everything in it, which actually, actually looks really good. So yeah, it's nice to see ya. Good on. Yeah, that's congratulations on your successes. And so well, I think that the attitude, and like what you bring to your work is such a beautiful way of working. And I've just, I hope, wishing you so much success in the future. And I'm sure that your work will endure, as you've said, like five years with one collaboration is pretty significant. And I'm so looking forward to seeing what you put, like what comes out, you know, thank you, Alison can work you can keep bringing to the world. It's so wonderful. Sorry, lovely. Thank you, Alison. That is really very kind of you. And I must express my admiration and appreciation for what you do too, because you've got a lot going on in your life and a lot of your own creative projects going on. And this podcast and I know how much work must go into putting this together for you. And I think there's a lot to be said for women who aren't being proactive in uplifting and giving a platform to other women. You know, we have international women's day where you know, everyone posts on their social media, how good it is to support women. But you're an example of someone actually actively doing that. And I'm really, I have a lot of respect for that and very grateful for the opportunity to join in with the fantastic work you're doing. Thank you for It's so lovely for you to say that you're a great example of a great woman. Thank you. Yeah, good on you at all. I just love it. Love it so much. It's been really nice speaking today. It has it's been so lovely. Thank you so much for coming on. I've just really loved chatting. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to connect either leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Rosie Rutherford British clarinettist and freelance musician S2 Ep32 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Rosie Rutherford, a clarinettist, composer, freelance musician and educator from Darby in the British Midlands, and a mum of 3 children. Rosie grew up in a musical household with her father and sisters being quite musical, she started on the keyboard at 5, piano at 6 and clarinet at 8 - after there being no flutes available at her school. Rosie studied at the Royal Birmingham Conservatoire , playing in the Folk ensemble, and later met her husband Jamie. She formed a trio with Jamie on guitar and violinist Ning-ning Li called Threaded. They are at their core a folk band, but take their influences from all types of music. They’ve released 3 albums- of what we spoke (2016) Fair Winds & Following Seas (2017), When The Raven Comes Calling (2019) Threaded was commissioned to create the musical score for Red Earth Deaf Accessible Theatre performances in 2018 for Soon Child. going on a live theatre tour around the UK before covid hit. In the past months they have been involved with another show with Red Earth Theatre, The Red Tree. which came out virtually in January 2022. They have also created 5 music videos incorporating Sign Song for the deaf community which you can watch here - https://www.threadedmusic.com/sign-song Rosie also runs Teenie Tempos, a parent and baby/toddler music group based in Derby. Red Earth Theatre https://redearththeatre.com/ Podcast - instagram / website Threaded's music is used throughout this episode with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks for tuning in. My guest today is Rosie Rutherford. Rosie plays the clarinet. She is a composer, a freelance musician and an educator from Darby in the British Midlands in the UK, and a mum of three children. Rosie grew up in a very musical household with her father and sisters all playing instruments, and she started on the keyboard at age five, piano age six and clarinet at age eight. After there were no flutes available at his school. Rosie studied at the Royal Birmingham Conservatoire, playing in the folk ensemble, and she later met her husband Jamie, who also attended the same Conservatoire. She formed a trio with Jamie on guitar meaningly on the violin, and herself, called threaded. They are at their core a folk band but take the influences from all types of music. They have released three albums of what we spoke in 2016, fair winds and following seas in 2017. And when the Raven comes calling in 2019. testable theaters performance of soon child in 2018 and went on a live theater tour throughout the UK with the show before COVID hit. In the past months they have been involved with another show with radio theater called the red tree, which came out virtually in January 2022. They've also created five music videos incorporating sign songs for the deaf community, which you can find through the links in the show notes if you're interested in watching. Rosie also runs teeny tempos a parent and baby toddler Music Group based in Darby. I hope you enjoy our chat. It's a pleasure to have you. Thanks so much for coming on. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. So it's nice to have have a good natter isn't it about all things moms? Absolutely. It's so enjoyable. Whereabouts are you? What's What town are you? Darby? Yeah, so in East Midlands Oh, very good. Yeah. So as you mentioned, it's very misty and, you know, a bit sort of Sunday morning ish there. What, what sort of what's the weather like, there is cold and you know, horrible winter, what's what's going on there is absolutely freezing. It was funny during over the year, it was actually fairly warm. I think it's one of the most warmest years on record. And I thought oh, this will be alright. I can cope with them. And then last week, it was just like really freezing and icy. Yeah, yeah, I'm not I don't mind the cold. I like cold if it's crisp. You know, if you've got the nice bright sunshine. Yeah, but it's just a misty and you drive in and you're like, or can't actually see anything two cars in front of me. And I think the problem with weather here is it's just it changes so fast. So you can't ever you know, cold is absolutely fine. And snow is fine and hot sun is fine. I think it just always takes your body a while to acclimatized to it. So if it just happens really fast. You just feel like a sore all the time. You just like going on. It's like it's catching up with what's going on. And then it changes again and then you've got today here it's been what 30 Probably got up to 32 Today your associates. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so not Yeah. summer's day here. It's been beautiful like, oh, sorry, I shouldn't say. I could just pretend although I said the other day, I spoke to a lady who was in Canada and she had snow. And I was like, so jealous because I've never skied. I've looked at I've seen snow and I've touched it, but I've never actually been to the snow. So I'm like, Oh my gosh, that'd be awesome. As my sleep comes the same playing field across my chest, and the softness All right, so tell me about your music. I've discovered you as a, of course. That white thing that you're playing, it looks like a storm true for wind Institute. It's like, can you tell us about what you play with the proper names of things? Not like the Stormtrooper instrument? Yeah, no. So I'm a I'm a clarinetist is my is my main thing. And so I play clarinet, bass clarinet. But I also play all the woodwinds as, as a protective music teacher and stuff like that. So the Stormtrooper instrument, which is a discord and electronic wind instrument, which for a project that I'm working on at the moment, has to try and get my fingers around it so we can use it to because it's, it uses MIDI, so it can import into the computer. So it's the same thing. Dreams is a saxophone. It's just like electronic saxophone, but, but it has like the same functions as a keyboard. So you can you can have all these different all these different sounds. So it's proper novelty. So just for like having when I get a minute to have a little go and find another different different core sounding things. I can I can play yeah, so it is cool, but it's really it's really crazy instruments really strange. I've been enjoying watching a little Instagram, little posts you put up when you're finding all the different settings and this one sounds like like you've been sucked through vortex or something. So cool. It is. And I thought because I got it literally at the start of December just landed on my mat. And I was like, right, so I'll try and be festive. We're trying to a different Christmas carol every single day on it, then um, it gives me a chance to like play every day, but it's very, I don't have to commit much time to because that's always the problem, isn't it? Like is you want to do something every day but actually finding the time to commit that and I was like a Christmas carol. I can probably do. I still didn't manage every day, but I managed most days. Think I've got through a lot of the core settings. Yeah. It's good fun. It's like yeah, into discovering what what all the buttons do. Yeah, that's it. So how did you get into music? Have you always been musical? Did you grew up in a musical household? Yeah, I think so. So my dad plays. He's a he's a blues man. So he's a guitarist and harmonica player. But actually, when I was a child, he didn't he plays a bit of guitar but he didn't kind of gig or anything like that. So I think we just we just always got into music. me I've got two sisters. And we're always quite musical. And yeah, so I think I started playing the I think I started on the keyboard when I was about five and then did piano at six and then I picked up the clarinet when I was eight. Yeah, right. Do you remember why you went to the clarinet? Was there a sort of something that drew you to this is one of those questions that is like so so I want to play the flute but they didn't have any in school. So I want clarinet sure did around No. Oh, my second choice. Now I'm so glad I'm actually so glad because the character is like I just thought Do you love it? And it's so me. So it was meant to be there was meant to be no flutes left that was always meant to happen. Yeah. Have you ever gone back and tried to play the flute? Has that ever been something you've tried? Yeah, so what do I do now? Yeah, not not like not that well, but um, is it you know, but I can play it well enough to double on it and then I can teach it I can teach it so. Yeah, so I do play it and it is really nice as well but it isn't the current app. So it's alright. It's funny how things work out isn't it? How many other instruments do you play? Mainly so clarinet and bass clarinet kind of my main things and then I play a bit flute player play sax, and I've tried to get into the whistle so absolutely love Yeah, I love the Irish we're so big fake lover. So during the lockdown I was trying to get a little bit better at that. And but it's like everything once you start delving in a little bit, it's just becomes it's just a minefield and there's and then you want to be able to do everything and amazingly you don't you and you're like well if I'm gonna say that I'm doing this then I have to be able to do this. But it's just a complete like it's just a whole life time of musical knowledge to fit into learning a new thing so it's Work in Progress see your glances involving a Tree Yard quote. Fred is telling you say threaded is it's, I guess it's like my little baby in terms of musical stuff. So it's me my husband Jamie on guitar and then our friend lighning who plays violin. And we got together. We all studied at Birmingham, Conservatoire, Royal Birmingham Conservatoire as it is now. So and they're all and we all did classical music degrees, performance degrees on our instruments. And we played in a big, massive folk group, they're called Joe Biden's conservative folk ensemble, which is amazing. It's, I mean, it differs in numbers, but it's around 60 people. And you know, and we do the festival circuit and everything. And it's just all like, it's amazing. You should absolutely check out check out Conservatorio contemplate screen, it's still going. And every because it's a it's used. The people that are in Conservatoire, and then the personnel changes kind of, sometimes yearly, sometimes every four years, but it's, it's grown over the past 20 odd years. It's brilliant. And we and we played there and that kind of spot, I've always referred music, because like, like I said, my dad's been a blues man. And he and my mom have always been into music. So always growing up growing up around it. But funnily, in a clarinetist, I kind of thought I can't play folk music as a kid, you know, because it's such a classical. Well, I think it's either a classical or jazz journey that you take with an instrument like the clarinet because you think, Oh, the clarinet, so and because of the teachers and the era, they live and the I guess the pathways that are open to you to start studying, it was straight. Classical, is the path that I took. And so you kind of think, oh, you know, I can't really play folk music on the clarinet. It's not a folk instrument. So although I loved it, I didn't really do much on it until I got to college. And then because we had the folk ensemble, and I was like, Oh, this is great. Learn to do some tunes, and, and things. And then, and obviously, when you start then exposing yourself to this new world of all this free music, you kind of think, well, folk music actually. Like it's the music of the people. It's our music. This is what I love play. I love it. And so me and Jamie and Nunes because we love playing together anyway. We just thought we're going to create our own group and, and we're just going to play our own music. So the great thing about Fred it is that it's all devised. We generally one of us will bring a tune or a song and then we just get together. We turn it into a piece and and it's all original stuff. So it it's so it's really beautiful. Like it's beautiful for us because you know it takes that creative box because you just don't and you've got this outlet. And it's a safe place as well, because we're all, you know, we're all on the same page. So it's nice and easy. So, yeah, I feel really, really lucky to kind of have that place to just be creative with people that you can bounce off so easily. Yeah, so that's kind of where it came from. So we were like, we're not really focused. We don't really know what we are to be honest. Like, we're developing, I guess it's developing all the time, but kind of started with like, folk influence, but it's definitely like, we take influences and inspiration from everywhere and everything. So yeah, that's good. Yeah. And it must feel good to like, I've got two things I want to ask you, just from what you said, but the first thing is like to have, like you said, how it's a safe space. Like you can go there with your ideas and not feel like judged. You can play the thing you want to play and not feel like everyone's going, Oh, that's no good. You know, if you have that trust with each other, that you can play something and not feel scared or, you know, yeah, I don't know what the word is. I'm trying to intimidate. Yeah, that's what I'm going. Yeah, you feel really good to be able to share stuff and be honest with each other. And, yeah, that's it. And also, you know, that you know, that whatever you bring will, like we I don't know, it's like, because I think we do, I mean, obviously, I'm play. But recently, I've been doing a lot more composing and songwriting for various other things as well, not just threaded, but the great thing is that, whatever you see, whatever we seem to bring, we managed to make something work out. Even if it's completely different by the end of the session, then it is the start. But it's like that having everyone's kind of collective voices in there. Just always, we think, yeah, it just feels so easy. Because that it's such a positive experience. Always, you know, whatever you bring, and then you get to the end of it, you're like, oh, this, this has made this really great thing. Now that's, and you feel quite satisfied at the end. So yeah, I feel very lucky to have that place to be able to be creative. Absolutely, um, I've thought of something else to ask you. I'll come back to that. So do you guys do? Maybe COVID? You know, been annoying. But do you guys do a lot of live shows with the music? Or is it mainly recorded stuff that you chose? Um, well, pre pandemic? Yeah, so when we first started, and I guess for the first chunk of our time together, it's just kind of, we were just doing lots of like, mainly live stuff. So kind of small art centers festival type stuff, because I think that's where our musics best suited. And then in 2018, we got commissioned to work with this company called Red a theater. We do differ decibel performances. And so we wrote the score for a show with them and their show soon child, which was amazing. So that was kind of our first commission. So and then we did a live theater tour around the UK with them as onstage musicians and actors. Yeah. And then, and then it was pandemic hit. So when, but in between that we did three albums as well. So I think the first album was out in 2016, I want to say and then 27 teen and then 2019 was when we did the last album, which was the music from seeing child that we recorded. Yeah. Yeah. And then since then, since pandemic, obviously we've done a couple of live shows. But we because I mean me and Jamie are married so that's quite easy we can we can work and well I say it's easy next not easy with having we also have three children but that's another story that we can you know when we've got stuff we can create and write in evenings, but nothing slips in Birmingham. So it's not too far distance it's about four to five minutes but obviously we were all in lockdown as you guys were as well. I think we couldn't get together for quite a long time. So yeah, so we've done a lot we've tried to put a few things together last year just online just kind of over the Instagram to do some stuff but we haven't. So this year we're hoping that we're going to be able to do a lot more we did a reason we did we did something last year which we got some funding for which was turning so off the back of soon child like I said read out there to the Deaf accessible. They did deaf accessible theater so we and what we did with them with our songs is worked with science on directors and used a lot of science song in it so all of their shows is integrated in BSL to British Sign Language. So the actors are sign as well as talk so then when we did it when we put the songs in they are they were all signed in and off the back of that we kind of thought, you know, like, it gives an extra layer to our music, which we've never had before, like this visual element. And it's beautiful sign song is absolutely beautiful, because not only is it a language, and it's obviously a communication tool, but it's also just like this form of, it's just almost like dance with the performance when it's so beautiful. And so that that enhances the music so much, actually. And we kind of thought, Oh, well, we want to, once you've also kind of connected with the deaf community, we were like, We want to be doing this all the time, like the inclusion is just, it's just so important. So we've started trying to work and make find ways to make our music more accessible. So we've developed like, threaded, which is still going started the three of us, but we've kind of got a tangent as well called the threaded collective. And with that we're doing lots of different projects, working with other artists. So one of them is going to be the Deaf accessibility and music and how we can work and develop that and work with some deaf performance. It's not doing the sign song with us and things like that. So we're hopefully got a couple of festivals in the summer already. And we're going to work on developing that. So yeah, it's amazing. It's kind of all doing this. And you're just like, oh, I never expected that this would finish here. But that's where it's going. And we're just gonna go with it. Yeah, amazing. I've never heard of sign song before. Is that like, how did you said, signing? Two songs that don't have lyrics? Or like, how does it? Can you explain? Yeah, so I mean, I'm no expert. But it's mainly it's it's just Deaf, Deaf people, interpretation of the songs, so and how they sign it. So. And therefore, the beauty of it is that everyone's interpretation might be slightly different. So you can obviously some will do a literal translation. And but then sometimes, obviously, songs songs are really interesting, aren't they? Because obviously, a lot of songs are metaphors. And though you use metaphors within the songs, or the song is a metaphor for something else, or it's emotive, so when you're when we're working with them, with the science on performers, often it's talking about the context of it, what you mean by that line, and then they will interpret it, I guess, like any will, it's like any translation is if you translate in a book, but they'll work on it. So the signing that they do isn't necessarily like literal signing, it's all trying to create the metaphor. So it's so it's just this whole thing is just as beautiful performance, because it's just that everything working together. It's just amazing. That seems to be able to create music that can become a part of that. Do you know what I mean? Really, really? Absolutely. I'm gonna do some Googling when we get get off here, because that sounds amazing. Yeah, a whole new thing I've I've never known. Yeah. Yeah. Well, within theater, the accessible theater is becoming quite rightly, much bigger here. So there is a lot more access. And I think the UK really working on it. And but in music, sometimes, you know, there's been some performances, there's been some stuff that's on festivals and Glastonbury, they had a big, big thing, there was a signer with a wrap up, but still, it's not it that we've got so far. We need to go the long way to go. So yeah, it's we feel like quite strongly, it's important. And it's a way that that so many people could quite easily add this access level in a beautiful way. And then, you know, and it's just and it's just like, it's amazing to watch and it means you're including so many more people within your performance. So it's really good. Yeah, well done. That's wonderful. I love that wage, roll up your brain pole to get not far to go on what I was gonna ask before, what's it like working so closely with your husband? Basically. It's actually amazing. I think our relationship it came from being musical together I think. So. I think we're at we're often at our best as a couple when we are being creative together. I think we probably find that things are more strained when we're not getting the opportunity and it's just home after you know what I mean. So when because Because yeah, so much of it is so much of I guess why we love being together is being creative, and I definitely feel like much better music session with him. And I think because instrumentally dynamically because he's a guitarist. So any tune i i write or any kind of like songs he will be like. And then it kind of makes it like quite quickly being on that same wavelength. Whereas I didn't necessarily have the scale to be like, I know exactly how I'm going to accompany this. Jamie will be like, this sounds good. And I'm just like, yes, that is what I was aiming for. So yeah, it's actually really nice. But obviously, with having the family it has become a much bigger juggle for us to be able to work together. In terms of like childcare and other logistics, so at the moment, he's working. So the, the theatre company, Red Earth, which we did scene child with, me and Jamie, right, have worked on the music for their next show, which she is currently rehearsing called the red tree, which is a book by shot and it's beautiful picture book. And so we've written the music together, or like the main terms of music, some of it, he'll divide in the process. But originally, we were both kind of going to be on it in stage, but then I had my third little baby in August. So I haven't been able to do the tour. And that's going to be live streamed at the end of the month. So I feel like, I feel like a solo parent. Because normally you work with you're going around each other and it's like I'll do this day he does this day or this evening, and, you know, work around it. Whereas because it's every day, it's Monday to Saturday for the whole month. I'm just like, Yes, I actually have all the admiration for single parents, because I did about three days. And I was like, oh, people do that. The school run. I mean, like, I feel like the school run is harder than having a third child. Like having to be in the same place twice a day and get everyone ready to get out of the house on time. Yeah, that is just that is the kettle of fish do. I was like something. Show me what you've got something. What I can do. So you have three children. How old are your older children? So my daughter Ruby is four. My son is three. And then the little baby Louie is four months old. I love that name. Louisans says Did you meet your husband at like in a music capacity? Do you only ever known each other through music? Yeah, yeah. So we we studied at the same same Conservatoire. But we didn't know each other while we were studying. Because he was here above me. And Qataris Tantek. They kept themselves to themselves classical guitarists that come in for their things. Whereas obviously, the clarinetists you'd be in the orchestra in the band. So I was in a lot more. So I never, I didn't really know him. It wasn't until after we'd finished that through friends and stuff. We met each other. So yeah, so it's weird because we went to the same place, but we have completely different, you know, but before being together, we just have completely different experiences of being there. Which is a bit strange, but you know, it's funny, isn't it? Do you remember seeing him there? Like, did you ever seen you see each other there to remember? I don't really remember. I think I think I did go to one of his projects is major project, but um, but I didn't really know him. Just because we're friends with the painful. Yeah. And then. So it was mainly after we'd finish that we got to know each other. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So every since you got together, we've always played music together, or did it take a bit of time to sort of warm up to the fact that you were going to share this? It was like, instant sort of? Yeah, yeah. It was pretty instant. Pretty instant. So. So yeah, that's always been really nice. It's always been something that we've done, and we've been able to able to do together. And then it's, you know, and and then being able to kind of get together and stuff. It's really nice, because it's almost like date night. Date Night is just going and doing a gig. So it's like working day, but but it is nice. It's like a nice experience. So I feel like we get to share with each other. She's really good. Absolutely. That's lovely. So you talked briefly about how it's a bit tricky with now that you've got the kids with childcare, how to how do you manage if you've got some good support around you? For the kids? Yeah, I'm really lucky so my mum and dad live fairly Place and my sister and Jamie's parents are retired. So they've that when we did the when we did the tour they kind of came down and stayed for a chunk. So we were able to do it. So yeah, I mean we can only we've only been able to facilitate the word being able to tour and stuff because we've got like family and friends support so we are really really lucky. Yeah, it makes all the difference doesn't it really does. Like when you said before about people that do it on their own soul parents I've Yeah, I just don't understand how they do it. I go out of my brain if I was the only one doing this never made that absolutely amazing Absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I will see you. When you I'm interested to ask you this because I'm a singer. That's my background. When you were pregnant with the with each child, did you find it really hard to breathe while you were playing your instrument? Yeah, I think, well, I had I had different pregnancy experiences. So and which affected which affected my play in and I think some of them are more mentally than others. But with with Ruby, my first one I had a really big bleed at 13 weeks. And they never knew why. Yeah. So they were kind of like, you know, take it easy. And I got like tours booked. And in the end, I just had to I couldn't I didn't pay because I was because you know like you have this degree. And it's all tummy muscles isn't it and I was scared to use them because it was like, because they don't know why I've had this. And then so I didn't really play for the first kind of six months. And then I've got some stuff in and I think probably felt a little bit more confident to kind of hit but I still never supported properly, often just playing from here because I was going to use my dummy. And then. And then with Arlo, I think I think I did have some bleeding again. But I think it was really early on. And then I was kind of fine for playing and stuff. So I did quite a lot of work with him. And he that was that felt like generally a much easier pregnancy. But he was got pregnant after nine months after having reap. So I think I was just such in such a sleep deprived state from her because she just didn't sleep until she was about four that I just probably didn't didn't think about I was just in autopilot. So I think I just kind of work through a bit more. And then with live, it's really similar. I had a had a really big bleed at 11 weeks, or just performance, we scan. Really, really it was on the birthday, actually, I'd had a burger were locked down. But we'd ordered this burger I was really excited. And then it started bleeding. And then I had to go to AD. But I knew that was a similar thing to read, like had that gut feeling like that he that it was fine. So I was like I knew it was but it's obviously still terrifying. And then after that, I was a bit like oh, I've been scared. I was scared to play again because I just don't want to put any pressure on you don't want to rupture anything. So yeah, and I felt really tired for a lot of that pregnancy. So that's when I did a bit more whistle playing because it's just not the same type that you just don't have to put the same type of like support on and everything. But then then you don't know whether some of it's just because you know it's their time on your body's tired it's just like you're doing this again. You've got the other two that you're actually got to look after I did lockdown because this you know, you're trying to be so positive and you know, for the kids especially. And but there isn't that much to do either. So you you know you think you're tired because you just like the whole situation is just exhausting, isn't it? The pandemic itself is just so it's exhausting. Just so yeah, yeah. Oh, that's interesting. I always like to ask musicians that are that are in that area that can relate to I had a shocking first pregnancy it was fine. I don't know why but the second one, I don't know. He sat up right on my diaphragm. It was ridiculous. I couldn't breathe to save myself. And that was starting to use up here too much putting too much strain on my on my actual, you know, in my voice and I had to give up a few gigs was like I can't actually project anymore. This is you know, there's nothing I can and the problem is you you feel really bad because you did you know Like, you don't want to cancel stuff anyway, because you know, you pregnant you're absolutely candid, but you don't know until the time d that actually this this isn't and it can change so quickly. Yeah, I was kind of Alright, doing this. And then I got to about seven months, and I was like, I literally have no space that I can do. So yeah, yeah. It's a funny thing, isn't it? Good on him? Day to day with the kids now, do you basically set time of an evening just to work on your music with your husband? Yeah, generally, generally. I mean, when when we've had commissions, like when we were working on the theater stuff, we did block out days to do it. And, and the same when we were working on the collective stuff last year, we would we blocked out days to do it. But when we've been in lockdown, obviously, we haven't been able to use the chat we had, we couldn't use the childcare at some point of it. So then it would have to be evenings. So in the summer, it's alright, because you still feel like you have like evening time, but in the winter, it doesn't, it doesn't mean that you don't end up getting very much done. The kids are in bed, and it's like half past eight, nine o'clock. And then you're like, right, we've got to have dinner. And then we've got to try. And we've got to try and create. So I think I think it depends on what we're creating for as well. Like if it's commission stuff. Because there's a brief and it's kind of got to get done, you can be a bit more pragmatic about it, it's like, well, you know, if we are doing the evenings, we'll commit three or four evenings to it. And we will get it done in that time, because that's the time. Whereas if it's our own stuff, like if it was just kind of like more. So if we take the threaded or stuff about rain, then you can be a little bit more like, well, we'll just get together in an evening and have a bit of a jam and see what happens. And that's a lot. I feel like that the winter months are never that good for that type of thing. For me, I think fat. And I don't know whether it is just because I'm so brain dead by the time it gets to the I can't I can't think and also a lot of a lot of creating on my instrument. It's just playing. So it's a lot of improvising and seeing what comes out of improvising. And the current house isn't that big. So you can't really do that. When the kids are in bed loudly. And in the winter. In the summer. We've got we've got a conservator on the back so you can kind of go in there. And it's warm. But in the winter, it's actually freezing because the Conservatives the court really typically delivery very much just ended up not doing a lot which was probably the attic. But I think if you're trying to be creative, if it's your job and you've got to write stuff on top, then it's like any job isn't it? You've got to get it done. So you will find find the time and the space. But I think if it's for me, I have to be in the right frame of mind to do it. And yeah, and in the right space for it to for it to be enjoyable. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And and that's the thing, like if you're forcing it, it's you're not you're creative. tivity is not going to come you could because you're just like, Oh, I've got to do it and nothing's going to come when you put pressure on yourself like that. Like, like you said, you need the time to just fiddle about and see what comes out on. Yeah, absolutely. Oh. What's your thoughts about mum guilt? I think that I feel like we shouldn't have it. But I think so many of us do. And I think even if, from people I spoke to and friends and everything, and I think and I think it's like anything, I think it's, I think it just stems because you care, and you want to make the right choices. And I think for your children, and I think as mums. I don't know you kind of there's this thing, isn't there anything that you do for yourself? It's at the expense of doing it for your children. And that isn't, but it isn't. But I think we'd have to go through that process, don't we? And it seems, seems that lots of people have to, you know, go kind of through this process and find, find out how you're going to work and what you need to do. And what you would class is something that makes you feel bad, and something that makes you not feel bad. So I think it's different for everybody. I know, I've definitely had it, I get it a lot. I think it's, but I know I shouldn't have it. Because a lot of it is like work. It's because I've because, you know, if you're gonna go and do something for work, then you feel bad, because you're like other kids are being having to go so this person isn't going to this person, but then you need to earn a living. So yeah, then you can't have the quality of life that they're gonna have if if you don't earn any money. So yeah, I think it's really it's really interesting. And I feel like now my attitude towards it has developed after like being on my third child, because I know, when I just had Ruby, you know, kind of anything feel really, really bad. And I wouldn't, I'd be like, Oh, no, I can't do anything for myself, I can't go for a run because the house is a mess. And I've got to do this, I've got to do the washing and everything before I do this little thing myself. And now, I'm a bit like, well, if I want to play my bass clarinet for 10 minutes, the house has missed and I'm just going to do it because I only have one life and it's not fair and everyone else that I'm resentful because I don't get to do it. Because actually, it's my choice. But it's taken, you know, it's taken a long time for me to kind of get to that point of that I will do that. I still haven't been out the house for a run yet. anyone to do anything because it because you know, it's like, well, if I've got if I have got half an hour for me, then what am I going to do with it? If I was to have if I was to probably have longer than that and start feeling a bit like, oh, I probably should be doing this and probably shouldn't be doing that. Yeah, and you know, I'm taking on gigs and things and I When Ruby was little we did a lot more gigging because it was the, you know, the other side of the pandemic. So things were actually booked in. And I didn't feel bad about that, because I didn't everything was booked beforehand. And I didn't know and I think I just struggled leaving. But I think when there are as I don't know, I think you know, like, once you've gone through it, you know, they're going to be fine as well. You know, when that it's always worth thinking of what, what's it gonna be like? Whereas, you know, it is always okay. So yeah, yeah, with that benefit of experience, then you know, that your your next two children, it's actually going to be fine. We'll be fine. Yeah. But it is hard. Because, you know, I think everyone feels guilty to some degree. I think people just have different. Some people and people feel different, like guilty about different things, don't they? And for some people, their guilt might stem from work related. So for some people, it might stem from like socializing, they feel like they shouldn't go out and have a drink because or see their friends. Because you know that because the children have their bedtime routine. And, and yeah, I think everyone will have something that they struggle with in terms of mum Gill. But, yeah, yes, finding the balance. I think that's so true. Because I think it's yeah, the balance of like, I think you still need to do something for yourself. Like, you can't just be a mum all the time, you actually still have to be yourself and especially, you know, with your husband, you still have to have that relationship. And it's a funny thing, like when you have kids, it's like, I don't know, this is expectation that your whole world has to completely stop and revolve around the kids which is fair enough for for a period of time like it has to because they're so little and they can't do anything but I think it's a no from what I'm finding talking to different mums through this. It's like well, there's a point when you actually go hang on a sec. I'm still me and I actually want to go do stuff that I did before. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really important for for your children to See you? And I think them's. I mean, we notice it loads with Ruby because she, with, with coming from a very musical household, she's now like, she's so into it. And we haven't, you know, for a while, like, would you want to do this? And she'd be like, No, I don't want you to show me how to do that. I do it my way, when we can have gotten your clarinet, and I'd be like, because kids want me to, I don't want you to show me I just want to do it, which is like, you know, fair enough. But now she's gonna, which is making a pro songs, and she's doing all this stuff. And she's only four. But, but I think, for me, I want her to see me go, you know, especially for as a as a woman that I can, I can still be an artist, and I can be a performing musician, and I can do this, and I can still have a family, and be a present mom, but be still be creative. And be me because, you know, that's, you want, I don't know, like, that's, I feel, I feel proud, I guess that I'm managing to juggle these plates, because I always wanted to be be a musician. And, you know, and it's tough. There's lots of tough elements about it. And, you know, a lot of people feel that they can't balance a family and be a musician, because, because it, you know, you end up having to turn down so much work because of various things. And I think, you know, if they can still see if your kids can still see you being you that's, that's really good for them to know that or they could, you know, they can still have the life that they want to do. And, yeah, I think it's, I think it's really nice and also have an understanding that time is that their time is or that your time is split, but over things that are important, you know, and especially our, whatever your artistic discipline, that's something that you've worked at, usually your whole life, or, you know, from an age of being able to do it, you know, with dance or art or whatever, and you've committed so many hours that just because, you know, you decide to take on the responsibility in whatever capacity of being a parent, you don't stop. That doesn't stop, because that's part of who you are. And so I think it's important is for your children to see that that time still happens in time still exists, like I still have to practice because otherwise, if I get a call to go and do a gig, I can't if my lips not in I'm not going to be able to do it. So, but it's not at the expense of time with them. Yeah, it's, it's just part of our daily life and routine. And so yeah, I do think that that's important. But I'm only kind of starting to, like, put that time and now you know, it's taken me a while of not feeling bad for doing practice, even though I believe that I shouldn't feel bad for doing it. And I have to do it. It's still, you know, it's still actually doing it. But yeah, it is good. Yeah, I love that. I love the way you describe that. Because that's like, that's how I feel. It's like, I think it's wonderful. Especially, I mean, I don't have any girls, but for my boys to see, you know, the woman who if they end up with a woman that they, you know, that becomes a mother should their children, but she still does all the things that she did before she had kids, you know, it's just in your slotted into your life, like you said, you you're practicing your you know, it's part of what you do, and your children see you do that, which is just, I love that it is so wonderful. Yeah, I love it. And I think you know, like, for, for our kids as well, we're definitely noticing that they, they all seem to love. Like either whether it's performing or I think kids kids respond to what they're exposed to, don't they so but as they're always making up songs now, even though their three year old, he's really started to get into the dispersing in and they'll be they'll be doing that payment, these payments, dinosaurs and he's making up songs. And you think that's just because it's exposure, and I'm sure it's like, you know, all children or children are sponges, aren't they. So whatever you do in your house, your children will pick it up. And whatever. So I think that's the thing, whatever it is that you love, and you want for any mom, even if they're not, if it's not art, if it's you know, yoga or, or climbing, or whatever it is that you want to do is kind of your hobby, if the kids can see it, that they absorb it. It's something that that often it can be something you end up doing together because they think oh, my mom is this, I'm interested in it. mom or dad's doing this. And that's what we've kind of found with ours, whatever it is, we're kind of doing that they want to do. And then you end up still being able to do the thing that you love and you do it with them. I my husband really loves drawing. And he's always drawn and he's you know, he's really good at drawing but it's just something that he does for himself and he really enjoys it and so the kids are annual sit and draw with the kids. And so their art is amazing. Well, me I know I'm so it's my kids, but I think that there is really, it's really brilliant. But I'm just like since they've been able to hold a pen you sat there and drawn with them. And so that's something that they are really like to do. I mean so then when I I see it and if we, you know, draw it or whatever, and I'll draw, they're just like, Oh, what's that meant to be mommy? Daddy's is better, just like, I'm trying. No, but they do they just pick it up so much that I think it is important, therefore, for them to see you doing things that you enjoy. Yeah, it just becomes a part of life. It's like, it's not a sure thing. That it's like, Okay, now, we're now done going to do this, but it's just incorporated in your life. It's just what you do. Yeah, I love that. That's this beautiful, that's so good. How did you feel then this, I like this concept of identity about how we view ourselves as a woman, then we have children, you know, how do we see ourselves? Did you sort of have a concept of your own identity change when you became a mom, I don't know, you know, I don't know whether it really has. If I think about it, like, I still feel like I'm really easy. And I'm very lucky, because I've got the same friends, I haven't. And a lot of my friends from school, we all move back to the same place. So we all kind of went out to study, whatever we did at university, and then we've all kind of come back to the same place. So I've got a lot of the same friends, a few of them have also had children at the same time. And all my friends from studying at college, still fairly close with them. And I think I've still I've been very lucky that I've been able to be facilitated to still work. And so I kind of feel like I don't think I've changed. Does that make sense? It does. I don't feel any different. I think I just, I just Yeah, I think I don't feel any different. I have literally got more responsibilities, but I think I try and yeah, it's yeah, I'm not putting words in your mouth. But it's almost like, because you've got this musical practice, which is endemic to you, and you've got the relationship with your husband, who's also got the music, it's like, you're able just to bring the children into your world. And continue with that, what you had, and the children and sort of they have joined into your world, and you'll still be able to maintain who you are without any sort of like, oh, I have to give this up, or I have to do this. Now whatever. I think so. I think and I'm very lucky that I guess I'm surrounded by people that have supported that. And being with with me and my husband both being artists, you know, that has challenges, you know, it because it's not like often, often, for other friends who are artists, they're married to someone who has got a stable job. And not that not all artists are stable, but we're freelancers so it is up and down. So one of them, you know, so they can be they can kind of project work that they want, but they know if they're gonna if they're going to have a family or whatever, there's going to be a stable income coming in nine to five sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. Whereas obviously, we both of us, we haven't got that. And we've always relied on because, you know, very lucky, we're very, very equal. We've always kind of both worked in both, both on whatever. So having a family for us and me being a moment. We've we've, we've kind of thought, well, we're going to do it and we'll make it work around this and Jamie chipped in just as much as me. So I don't know, I yeah, I've been able to just kind of carry on and also have things in place. For the work that I do that I will take the children if I need to. So I've been very lucky that I've been able to do it. My work that's kind of more artsadmin like I've gotten I've done, I've done like training and I've just had the baby in the sling. Because so because I'm breastfeeding and I'm gonna go to work and have to take the baby and that's just it. So and but I've been very lucky that people have been very accepting of that. Because if I was maybe in a business where that wasn't acceptable, you know, not all businesses, it isn't acceptable, you know, if you're a nurse or whatever, can't take your baby to work. So I do feel very lucky that I've been able, you know, the support network around me at work as well as home as men that I have been able to have children and still work as an artist, you know, and that so and I know not everybody does have that support. So I do feel very lucky. I think sometimes it's what it's wanting to do it though, isn't it like I think I am. I'm quite proud RTX I'm like, Well, I still want to do this, and I want to have children. So therefore I have to, I have to make it work. And so I have to put myself in positions, that I can do it. So yeah, a lot of it is setting things up that I've had to do myself. You know, a lot of my work and everything I've gone out to find and projects I do the funding applications for and everything which I have to do my own time, there's been a lot of midnight 1am is writing funding bids for you. But that means that when we've been lucky, and we've been successful, it's meant I've been able to do the work I want. And because I've been project manager, and they've been able to make things work. So yeah, it's it is. It is hard work to make it work. But it's worth it. If you want to make it if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. You also teach music. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So I do peripatetic teaching. So I go around some schools, it's mainly been primary schools, and I do private teaching at home as well, which is, some kids are mainly adults that I teach privately. Yeah. Yeah. Is that changed a lot through COVID? Did you have to do lots of stuff online? Yeah, so a lot of it was online, which is tough. I think teaching online is really, there's some really good things about it, in the sense that it's actually you can fit more people in, you know, condense it. So and, and you you don't have in, yeah, you're not having to do too much traveling. So that's good. And it's convenient, especially for adults. Because often if you finish work, and then you have to go out to the clarinet lesson, you can be bothered to go and do that, you know, on a dark evening. And actually, that timelines worked quite a lot for them because they can slot in the parents with the children because they're, you know, if you've got to having to take little Germany to x and x. You know, it's tiring, isn't it after your work? So some parents are actually quite good. But but it isn't. It isn't the same. Yeah. Nothing can nothing is the same as having face to face lessons. So that was tough during the pandemic, but everyone that I teach cope so well. And it was amazing to be able to keep it going. Yeah, yeah. So your place is called Darby. That's it. Right. Yeah. And you're near Birmingham? Yeah. Are you from the North? This is one of those questions. Because, you know, I think it's because if you're from the south, everything north of Birmingham is the North. Whereas if you're from the north, then like, then it depends on where you, you know, if you were from Yorkshire, you would not pass me as a Northerner. It'd be like, Midlands, that's not enough. Whereas if you were London, you'd probably class be a Northerner. So that depends on who you talk to. Looking at the map, like there's still quite a lot of north north of you. Yeah, quite a lot going up. Yeah. To be to be safe. I'm in Midland, you're indecisive. I don't know where I am just hovering around. That's funny. It's like your relative to other people telling you where you are. That's it. That's it. Sorry, I'm scrolling now. What sort of projects? Can you share any projects that you've got on the go stuff you've got coming up that you want to share? With the list? Yes. Yes. So what am I doing? So we've got a work one of the jobs that I do I work for a hospital trusters arts coordinator on Amis music coordinator, and during the pandemic, we did some Commission's and writing some stuff. So this year, we've got We've got quite a big project coming up in the summer, which is going to be a reflection on the pandemic and stuff with the staff. And so we've written a song for that, which we'll do with the staff choir. And it's hopefully going to be a sharing a lot of the staff wrote poems and things like that as part of like reflection for them. So I'm organizing that which will be hopefully really beautiful and really reflective and really nice. And then threaded wise, we've got at the moment, putting together some for some summer festivals. And we're working with the University in Nottingham as well to develop some tech which will support the access. So that's a bit of a kind of experiment as to what they are developing and we will try will pilot is from festivals and see, see how it works. And if it works. So we're going to be doing that in the summer, as well. And that's ongoing and yes on collective performances. And we're going to try we're going to we're getting back on with some threaded stuff this year as well. So we've got some dates of the day with names and we're gonna write some new music. Yeah, which I'm really looking forward to. And then, yeah, we've got the red tree, which is the the music I've written for the theatre company that's been live streamed. On Sunday, the twin, it's Sunday, the 29th of January at Wolverhampton theatre. So I mean, if it's live stream, I imagine that anybody could get one even if you're in Australia, you could watch it I imagine if it's live streamed, yeah, for sure. So that story, the red tree, I think it's aimed at children six upwards, and it's about, it's about the little girl who she wakes up in a room and she's got nothing to look forward to. And each book, each picture of the book is a different kind of scenario. And it's about anxiety, depression, really, I think the book, but then at the end, it's all hopeful. So they've been doing a lot of work. And so it's going to be live streamed into schools during the week. But anyone with children that especially after the pandemic that has that type of, you know, children, because children have experienced a lot of isolation and anxiety more than I think. I know, I know, that happens anyway. But I think just so it's just such a big thing. At the moment, I think they thought it was going to be a really great book, because it might help children reflect on their feelings a little bit. So for sure. A good one to check out if anyone wants to watch some live stream theater. So yeah, and then. Yeah, and then I think, and then apart from that, I just got to try and get some more gigs in but I am being honest, because I'm on maternity leave. So yeah, real thing, but. But I have just after LUMION and really started school in September. So that juggle, I've got on with some stuff, but I need to get back on that. And then I'm also starting my baby music classes back at the start of next month as well, because I do a little group called Ed tempos. And it's really lovely. And so because I've got Aluna, I can take him and I do that, because that's really nice. And it's really good now, because I've got the children and I've seen them go through that. So did did it with the others. It's like it actually is amazing. I know. I know, music is amazing for children's development. But I've seen firsthand that now. Like seeing it go from nought to five. Because they did all this stuff like rubes is like her ear and all those musical issues that the pianos just work like to work out tunes. And that that's just because of exposure, you know, and you don't have to come from a musical household for your children to be able to do that. I think all children can do it. It's just exposure. Yeah, that's Yeah. How long have you been doing you? Is it teeny? Temporary? Tiny? Yeah, TV tempos? So we started it when Yeah, we started it when I was little. And so when was that? 20. I think it started in 2019. And we did a bit of it before the pandemic. And then then we did it. We moved it online for a term. But it was one of those things that was just tough to do online. And then I could have gone back and started it face to face, but because of a lot of the restrictions, and the and just the risk assessments and all the cleaning and everything, I was just a bit overwhelmed. I was like, oh, you know, I'd be really stressed about under disinfect everything because I have to do that in teach with teaching in schools, but it's kind of with older kids, you can disinfect the stones you can disinfect everything I've touched, but with babies and children and putting things in their mouths and using the right cleaners and I was like Ah, there's just too much. So I thought I'll just wait until things have calmed down a little bit and find a way to make that work. So we're starting the face to face stuff, but that's really really nice and it's nice to help other parents use music as a way to communicate with their babies and be confident to do it as well because it's like you know so many people and but you find that being a vocalist as well, that we can all sing and We have different levels of as my dad always says Rosie likes to sing. Definitely doesn't mean that Gabby, I think, but I think what's really what everybody can and babies don't care about how, whether or not you're any good, they just love that sound and the connection. So, and sometimes it's just finding, it's just knowing what to do and how to do it. Give mums and dads the confidence, or grandparents or whoever it is the confidence to communicate with your baby through music and song because it just enhanced their development so much. And you know, into even intonations between words, there's some specific things that they can they latch on to, and tones of voice for positive and negative and things like that, which, once you know it, it's really nice for you to be able to use that and communicate with your baby. But a lot of it is confidence and parents not having the confidence to sing or not, not even knowing the nursery rhymes because it's been such a long time. You know, if you did it as a child, and if you don't have any other children in your family, you know, if you've not got siblings or children or cousins of children, your child could be the first one for a long time. And you just have no idea what any of these babies absorb. Yeah. Yeah, so that's really nice. Yeah, I work in childcare. That's my day job. I mainly work with what are they probably 18 months to two and a half, maybe nearly three year olds. thing I find, like, I don't care. I've been doing that job for nine years now. And I'll old and I don't sing properly. When I'm at work. I just you know, hey, you've got that proper singing voice and then you've got you this this when you sing Happy Birthday to someone in a group you just sing. You don't do your prophecy voice? You know what I mean? Yeah, I just I just crack on and sing the silly songs. And I think a lot of stuff for parents, I just get so embarrassed because they think you've got to be able to sing properly, to sing and so like, your kids just want to hear you sing like they don't they're not going to judge you. And they're not. They just and you're right. It's like the rhythms and like almost like, you know, when you read a really good book with the, like, the poetry the way, the like the rhythm of the words coming out like it just expanding on that and singing something or, you know, just I don't know, like, it's just this, this expansion of language and the kids love it so much, especially if you can throw into actions. That's always good. Yeah, I think I think parents just get embarrassed because they think, Oh, I can't do this. And who's watching me and, you know, it's yeah, it's like, Just do it. Yeah, enjoy the process. The end result doesn't matter. Yeah. And your kids just love it. They just they want to hear it. Thank you so much for being on the show. It's been a pleasure chatting to you, Rosie. It's been lovely. Thank you so much for having me, Alison. It's been lovely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Jenn Book Haselswerdt US educator, playwright + dramaturgist S4Ep101 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week on the podcast is Jenn Book Haselswerdt, a multi passionate creative and mum of 2 from Missouri USA. Jen is an Arts integration teacher, playwright and dramaturgist , but also enjoys doing all kinds of creating, from pottery to knitting and baking. Jenn was first drawn to the theatre through 'Annie' the musical. She was a professional through College, had a short time as a professional actor but then realised that she wanted to teach and write in the theatre. Jenn holds an Undergraduate Degree in Theatre, and a Masters Degree in Theatre, History and Criticism. She works with companies on new play development, reading scripts and doing research into the histories behind plays. She also works with a gallery to teach about the history of the art pieces. **Jenn's episode contains mentions of anxiety and depression** If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a Mum podcast where I, Alison Newman, a singer, songwriter and Aussie mum of two, 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:19,000 enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered while trying to be a mum and continue to create. 3 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:28,000 You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work's been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms 4 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:34,000 and we also strain to territories such as the patriarchy, feminism and capitalism. 5 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:42,000 You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch 6 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:47,000 and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. 7 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:55,000 I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast but if at any time you're concerned about your mental health 8 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:02,000 I urge you to talk to those around you, reach out to health professionals or seek out resources online. 9 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:10,000 I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, alisonnewman.net slash podcast. 10 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:18,000 The Art of Being a Mum would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on as being the Boanduk people. 11 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:30,000 I'm working on land that was never seeded. 12 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:37,000 Hello and welcome to another edition of the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me from wherever you are in the world. 13 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:43,000 It is a pleasure to have you. My guest this week on the podcast is Jen Book-Hasselswert. 14 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:48,000 Jen is a multi-passionate creative and a mum of two from Baltimore in the USA. 15 00:01:48,000 --> 00:02:00,000 Jen is an arts integration teacher, a playwright and a dramaturgist but also enjoys doing all kinds of creating from pottery to knitting and baking. 16 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,000 Jen was first drawn to the theatre through the musical Annie. 17 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:15,000 She was an actor through college and had a short time as a professional actor but then realised that she actually wanted to teach and write in the theatre instead. 18 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:22,000 Jen holds an undergraduate degree in the theatre and a masters degree in theatre, history and criticism. 19 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:30,000 She works with companies on new play development, reading scripts and doing research into the histories behind plays. 20 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:36,000 She also works with a gallery to teach about the history of various art pieces. 21 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:41,000 Please be aware today's episode contains brief mentions of anxiety and depression. 22 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:56,000 I hope you enjoy episode number 101. Thanks again for tuning in. 23 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:01,000 Thank you so much, Jen. It's such a pleasure to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you for coming on. 24 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,000 Thanks for having me. 25 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:09,000 Such a pleasure. And we were just chatting before we hit record that I'm in your future right now. 26 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:15,000 It's Saturday at 1pm in Australia and what time did you say it was over there? 27 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,000 It is Friday night at 10.30pm. 28 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:23,000 There you go. Well, we're still here. The future is still guffing. 29 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,000 It's so bizarre to think like that. 30 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:34,000 I always love on New Year's Eve when, because we're one of the first, apart from Auckland, Sydney is one of the main first ones to go. 31 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:40,000 And I love just sitting there through the day and just watching all the other countries go through their big fireworks. 32 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:48,000 And it feels so weird when you're sitting in bright sunshine on a really hot day and you're watching people in the snow in the dark. 33 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,000 It is so cool. I love it. 34 00:03:50,000 --> 00:04:05,000 Well, I have to tell you, my son is 12 years old and he is really excited that I'm talking to someone in Australia right now because a video game that he was really looking forward to came out today. 35 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:11,000 And all the YouTubers who he knows have gone to Australia so that they could get the video game first. 36 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,000 Oh, wow. 37 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,000 And record all of their YouTube. 38 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,000 Yeah, like reactions and what game is that? Do you know what it's called? 39 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,000 It is Tears of the Kingdom. 40 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,000 Yeah, right. 41 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,000 It is the new Zelda game. 42 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,000 Oh, yes, yes. I know the one. 43 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:35,000 Yeah, yes. That is a very popular. That's been going for a long time too, hasn't it, Zelda? 44 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:45,000 I mean, yeah, I'm I'm 43. And like I remember playing a Zelda game back on 8-bit Nintendo back in the early 90s. 45 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:53,000 Yeah, yeah. Good old Zelda. She's still going. Good on her. 46 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,000 So what part of America are you in, Jane? 47 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:05,000 I am in Missouri, which is in kind of like the middle of the country. 48 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:15,000 Kind of fraught right now. But I'm from Baltimore, which is in Maryland close to the East Coast. 49 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:16,000 Oh, yes. 50 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,000 Yeah, I was from the Atlantic Ocean. 51 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,000 You would be amazed the amount of people I've had on here from Maryland. 52 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:31,000 I can't say it right. I say Maryland. Yeah, I reckon I've had three, three episodes with people from like Baltimore or near Baltimore. 53 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:36,000 Yeah, there's something going on in that part of the world that's just coming to me. 54 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:42,000 We embrace kitsch in a way in Baltimore that like no no other place does. 55 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:46,000 And so I think we kind of breed arts loving people. 56 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,000 Yeah, I love that. It's so cool. 57 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:54,000 Yeah, and I'm starting to get better with my geography of America. 58 00:05:54,000 --> 00:06:00,000 So yeah, I appreciate when you say you're sort of in the middle. That's my mental thing. 59 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,000 Yep. Yep. 60 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:06,000 So my parents live in Maryland. My brother lives in Los Angeles, California. 61 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:16,000 And so I'm about 1500 miles from each. From each of them. Yeah. Yeah. That's a beautiful visual. That makes sense. Yes. 62 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:23,000 But I still forget which side is Seattle on the West Coast. It is. Yeah. 63 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,000 Sometimes I get confused because New York's on the East Coast, isn't it? 64 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,000 Yes. That's cool. 65 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:33,000 And Seattle's in Washington State and Washington, D.C. is on the East. 66 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,000 How did you manage that? 67 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:43,000 There are too many, you know, wanting to name things after the same exact people. 68 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:48,000 Why there, you know, I'm in Columbia, Missouri, and there's Colombias all over the place. 69 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,000 Everywhere. Yeah. Yep. Yep. 70 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:57,000 Oh, there you go. It's interesting. I love all these things I get to learn. It's all fun. 71 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:02,000 Actually, when I was a kid, I used to play this game. It was called Where in the World is Carmen San Diego. 72 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:09,000 And that was one of my favorite games. Yes. And I used to love like I liked that one more, the original more than the time travel one. 73 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:15,000 It was something I did like the time travel. But yeah, that just made me realize all these amazing places in the world. 74 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:21,000 And I think that was the start of me being fascinated with I had to get pen pals so I could talk to people. 75 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,000 And then my fascination with the weather, what it's like in other places like I don't know. 76 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:30,000 It's built from that that game. It's opening my eyes to it. Yeah. 77 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:36,000 It's the only way I know nation's capitals. Yes. Yeah. That's so true, isn't it? 78 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:44,000 Hey, on weather, what what's it like there at the moment? What's your right now? It is humid and muggy. 79 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:53,000 Yeah, it is. We had a really cold snap and very late cold snap with the garden. 80 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,000 Gardens kind of froze up and none of the plants knew what to do. Yeah. 81 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:05,000 But now it's 85 degrees and very, very humid. I'm just going to work that into my conversion. 82 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:11,000 Yeah, I'm still I'm still I don't have a match. Oh, yeah, that's nice. 83 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:16,000 Yeah, that's warm. Yeah. But muggies. Yeah. Yeah. Make it a bit uncomfortable. 84 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:22,000 No, not muggy. Yeah. There we go. All right. Enough of my random questions. 85 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:36,000 I have nothing to do with anything. I just indulge myself. I love it. Oh, dear. 86 00:08:52,000 --> 00:09:02,000 So you're obviously a mother, Jen. And I love on your your Instagram how you say you like like the coziness of creating things that are cozy. 87 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:08,000 And so you do all sorts of different things. So, yeah, share with us what you like to create. 88 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Sure. So I stole the phrase from this influencer named Deanna Joy, which is multi-passionate creative, 89 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:25,000 which I think sounds so much better than dilettante. So I my first love is Twitter. 90 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:33,000 But when we're talking about the the creating I do with my hands, I love baking. 91 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:39,000 I love pottery. I love quilting and other sewing. 92 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:46,000 And kind of all those things that make you feel warm and cozy. Yeah. Now, I'm sorry, I cut you off. 93 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:53,000 What did you say your first love was? Well, my first love was theater and still is. Oh, magnificent. 94 00:09:53,000 --> 00:10:02,000 Oh, we're going to get on very well. So, yeah. So straight theater or musical theater? 95 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:15,000 Mostly straight because my voice was never well, my voice is OK, but my dance skills were never at a place where I could. 96 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:20,000 Nine years of ballet didn't do anything for me. Yeah. 97 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:32,000 But yeah, so straight theater. I actually have my undergraduate degree in theater and master's degree in theater history and criticism. 98 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:44,000 And I work with companies on new play development and reading scripts and doing research into the histories behind plays and things like that, which is 99 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:54,000 really the most nerdy fun you can possibly have. But that just sounds so fascinating, like getting to delve into stuff in such a deep level. 100 00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:03,000 And you said criticism. So that means you can be like a proper critic and give like proper critiques on plays and things. 101 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:24,000 Yeah. Yeah. And my sort of my sort of outlook on things, which informs the way I teach to is, you know, saying I like or I don't like really doesn't help anyone in their creation of theater and their creation of whatever. 102 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:35,000 I also work with a gallery in town to do similar work with some of their gallery shows teaching about the history of the art pieces. 103 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:53,000 But to ask questions about the creation and ask questions that might lead to more questions that might lead to playing with what answers might be is just such a fun collaborative way to work that playwriting doesn't have to be 104 00:11:53,000 --> 00:12:01,000 a solo endeavor. And, you know, you can it's called a play for a reason. It should be fun. 105 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:37,000 This particular guy in Australia, his name's Peter Gers and he's very, I don't know, well known in South Australia, not probably the rest of Australia and certainly not internationally, but he's a theater critic. 106 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:56,000 And over the years, he's he's he's made it. He has a radio show and he used to be an actor. And he basically I remember him saying once about critiquing theater, that there was absolutely no point in belittling people or saying, you know, they did a terrible job. 107 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:12,000 You know, it's all about recognizing the amount of effort they've gone to, what their intention was behind the piece. Maybe the delivery wasn't, you know, quite what they had hoped or, you know, beyond the level of what he might have expected or whatever. 108 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:22,000 But there's no, there's absolutely no point in just bashing people, you know, when they're having a go. Is that something you could sort of relate to? 109 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:27,000 Absolutely. I think I was taking a professional development one time. 110 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:45,000 And there was an article that we read about the power of positivity in working with something like this with with art criticism, and I absolutely burst into tears in the middle of class, because I had always been called, I don't know if you do you know the movie 111 00:13:45,000 --> 00:14:04,000 Pollyanna? Oh yes. Kaylee Mills, like the 60s or 70s. So I'd always been called a Pollyanna because I am very positive about things. And it had never, you know, being a teenager in the 90s, when, you know, it was cool to be aloof and ironic. 112 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:20,000 Yeah, but being a positive person was really difficult and being positive about things, you know, people kind of looked at it as though you didn't have a critical bone. That to be critical meant to be nasty. 113 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:34,000 And, you know, darn it, I was 15 years old, I like the Spice Girls and I wanted to be able to like the Spice Girls. Yeah, yeah, you know, but I couldn't. 114 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:55,000 You know, reading this article about the power of positivity just struck such a chord with me that it should be about buoying up what's good about things and striving to make those things that aren't at that level, to that level, rather than bringing everything down. 115 00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:09,000 Yes, yeah, that's a really good way of saying it, isn't it? It's like you're, I don't know what the word is, it's this constructive criticism, I guess. It's things that can help people to make changes or, you know, look at things in a different way. 116 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:21,000 It's not just a straight comment that's, you know, with no possibility for any further, anything. It's like, a statement that's not helpful at all. 117 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:37,000 I think like when we're talking about, you know, being, you know, so criticism doesn't have to be critical, right? So like, when I'm working with a playwright on developing a new script or a new piece of theater, you know, who cares what I like? 118 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:51,000 What I like isn't necessarily going to be the same thing that an artistic director is going to like, or that the lady in row six is going to like, or the man in row seven, they're all going to like different things. 119 00:15:51,000 --> 00:16:09,000 So what's the purpose of saying I like this or I don't like that? But what we can do is say, hey, I noticed that in Act One, your character says such and such, but that never comes back in Act Two. It seemed really important in Act One. 120 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:17,000 Was it important in Act One? And being able to ask those questions to help structure that piece. 121 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:26,000 And play, you know, I keep coming back to the word play. Play around with those answers and hopefully ask more questions. 122 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:41,000 You know, it's kind of like a, I guess, like, I mean, this is a person who knows nothing making this statement, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels to me like it's like a book editor kind of like you're looking at with eyes outside of who wrote it. 123 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:54,000 And you can pick up stuff like, like you said, like, is there a theme that seemed important then didn't get continued or something come up all of a sudden or where did that come from? Like, there's no background to this, whatever. 124 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:59,000 That's kind of, I guess, a layman's way of describing it. 125 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:12,000 For sure. So like, so the it's called like Dramaturge, which is the same as it's the German word for playwright. 126 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:34,000 And so, but we, I mean, I do write plays, but when I'm Dramaturging, that's not being the playwright. And so I kind of, so someone who practices metallurgy shapes metal into something beautiful. So someone who practices dramaturgy helps shape drama into something beautiful. 127 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,000 There you go. 128 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,000 That's so cool. I love that. 129 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,000 I learned a new word today too. 130 00:17:43,000 --> 00:18:08,000 That's awesome. 131 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:16,000 Do you recall being a child and just like how you got into your love of theater? Where did that come from? 132 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:39,000 I, that's a great question. I remember going to, I remember whether it was watching the movie Annie or going to see a play, but I remember that it was Annie specifically and looking at the children on stage and going, I could do that. 133 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:46,000 And so I started going to theater camps when I was five. 134 00:18:46,000 --> 00:19:06,000 And, you know, just kind of being in plays and my theater camp that I grew up with was also at a swim club and did kind of sports stuff too because it's trying to be all things to all people. 135 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,000 And then John Waters movie was filmed there, speaking of Baltimore. 136 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,000 So that was super fun. 137 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:26,000 But, you know, they were very specific that we had all of us had to take music and dance and make the sets and the props for the play. 138 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,000 So kind of, kind of, you know, well rounded in that way. 139 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:48,000 And then I was in all the plays in middle school, which is sixth to eighth grade here. Yeah. And then in when I was going into ninth grade, a new school was opening up that was arts focused. 140 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:54,000 And so I went there. And so I've been a theater major since the time I was 13 years old. 141 00:19:54,000 --> 00:20:03,000 And John never told us that there was anything beyond you could be an actor or you could be a director. 142 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:13,000 I mean, I guess I knew in my head that you could make scenery and things like that. But really like when you were studying, you're either going to be an actor or a director. 143 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:29,000 And I was like, you know, with acting all the way through, you know, graduating from college. And then I was a professional actor for a hot minute. 144 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:49,000 And I had always wanted to do and what I've been saying since maybe second grade was I want to teach. I want to write. I want to do theater. And when I found dramaturgy and also teaching. 145 00:20:49,000 --> 00:21:09,000 I'm an arts integration teacher for my full time job. Those things. That's what it is. It's you know, dramaturgy is using teaching to fulfill the arts and arts and teaching arts integration is using the arts to fulfill education. 146 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:21,000 And so those things really. It's what I wanted to do since I was in second grade. Yeah. And it was like, it was just. 147 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,000 You just hadn't discovered that that was a thing yet. 148 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:45,000 And it was actually my roommate when I was 22. She was she told us that she was leaving to move to another state because she got literary management as dramaturgy internship at a theater out of state. 149 00:21:45,000 --> 00:22:01,000 And at the same time, one of my friends from high school got a gig on Broadway in the show Mamma Mia. Oh, wow. And I was jealous of my roommate, but wanted to congratulate my friend who was going to be an actress on Broadway. 150 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:09,000 Yeah. I thought, wait a minute. Yeah, perhaps I need to examine my life. Yeah. 151 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:25,000 There you go. Oh, how cool is that? Yeah. And that's the thing. Like I found in. I don't know this all these little worlds that you have no idea about. You know, like in talking to people just through this podcast, like discovering all these other things you can do. 152 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:42,000 If you know you want to be involved in art, you know, you don't. Sorry. There's not just, you know, the actual painter. There's all these other things you can be. And one of my favorite chats I've had on here was with an art historian, which I found so fascinating. 153 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:59,000 I was like, I feel like I've missed my calling because I love art. I don't make it very well, but I'm really fascinated in the history behind things and the symbolism and the imagery and how they, I don't know, express their ideas through different ways and all the different styles of art. 154 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:14,000 Yeah. So this is really cool that I'm learning something. I bet you there's no one listening that has ever heard the word dramaturgy before. So, hey, and if you have, send me a message on my Instagram and I'll give you a prize or something because this is cool. 155 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:40,000 Yeah. 156 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:59,000 I'm going completely off path now that I know this stuff. Whoa, that I love it. I love it. What are your like favorite plays or things that have influenced you the most like actors or themes or anything? Just share with me things that you love about theater. 157 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:15,000 Well, I always, I think about musicals. I always think about musicals first because they are musicals are what I don't know captures everything. I don't know. I love Sondheim. Stephen Sondheim's work. 158 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,000 Into the Woods is my favorite. 159 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,000 The first act of Sunday in the Park with George. 160 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,000 The second act is not my favorite. 161 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,000 The first act is great. 162 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:41,000 I think that there is something in the way that he works his lyrics and music together. 163 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:46,000 Being the person who who is able to do both. 164 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:57,000 And I think his command of rhythms are are amazing. I felt very 165 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:10,000 content is not the right word, vindicated I felt vindicated when I was listening to an interview with him and the interviewer asked, you know, how do you come up with your rhymes and he said I use a rhyming dictionary. 166 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,000 I was like oh me too. I felt I was so excited. 167 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,000 So he's, he's wonderful. 168 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,000 His work is wonderful. 169 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:27,000 Little Shop of Horrors is another favorite of mine, Howard Ashman and Alan Menken. 170 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,000 You know before they ever wrote the Little Mermaid. 171 00:25:32,000 --> 00:26:01,000 Their work adapting and when I write plays I do adaptations, mostly their work adapting just this weird little B horror movie into this amazing, kitschy work of musical theater is incredible and there's a moment in the movie where Rick Moranis, 172 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:21,000 he does a little riff, because he's you know very nerdy, the character, and he goes, I don't know, I don't know, and his voice just changes into this amazing passionate singer. 173 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:26,000 And being able to pull that out is is wild. 174 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:34,000 I am a big, I've always been a big fan of Wendy Wasserstein, who passed away. 175 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:49,000 Oh gosh, probably almost 20 years ago now but her work was one of the first, her, she and Carol Churchill I think were the first two sort of feminist playwrights that I had read. 176 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,000 And so their work was really influential on me. 177 00:26:53,000 --> 00:27:14,000 And there's some fantastic stuff going on in small theaters. Nowadays I really wish that Broadway would go back to championing new works and not reviving the old ones I will die on the hill that Oklahoma is a subversive piece of theater. 178 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,000 It really is. 179 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:21,000 But we don't need to revive it every two minutes. 180 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:35,000 It's interesting you say that I had a conversation with, back in season two, Dr. Erica Ball, who writes contemporary classical music in the US. 181 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:49,000 And we were having this conversation about that, why people keep putting on all these shows of Mozart and Tchaikovsky and when there's all these people that are alive today, and a lot of women too, 182 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:56,000 and people of color that are writing new music and why aren't we listening to that and why aren't they being put on. 183 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:12,000 And, yeah, it was this sort of this push and pull between the audience that wants to hear something familiar, because I think they will enjoy themselves more if they know what they, you know, they know it and they feel familiar with it, or the audience that wants to feel challenged 184 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:23,000 and wants to be pushed out of their comfort zone and it's a real quandary. And I guess it probably is a similar thing because at the end of the day, these things have got to make money. 185 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,000 Absolutely. 186 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:47,000 Yes, and there's this whole conversation about how like the older people have more of the money. And so if we want to make money, we have to do what the older people quotes. Yeah, what they want to see is what they're comfortable with but what we're forgetting is that younger 187 00:28:47,000 --> 00:29:06,000 people want to be part of these conversations they want to support the arts people who, you know, can't necessarily afford, you know, to, you know, wear a suit to an evening of $500 theater. 188 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:23,000 They, they also deserve the arts they also deserve to see themselves on stage, be exposed to these different worlds and so there's, you know, yes, the arts need to make money. 189 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:40,000 And we need to, you know, keep bringing in the people who are going to pay for the things, but also not forget that there's a new and diverse audience out there who also needs to see this work. 190 00:29:40,000 --> 00:30:07,000 And there's a theater company in town here that does incredibly avant garde fantastic works and I've worked with them with dramaturgy a few times, kicking myself that I wasn't able to work on their new play, which is up this weekend, but they do these 191 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:28,000 quite specific works, and, you know, both that theater and the community theaters in town and the other professional theaters in town, make things very accessible to a diversity of audiences which I think is a really wonderful thing about our local 192 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:44,000 community here that you know yes you can go and see ragtime and Susickle, and also an immersive Frankenstein, you know, really fantastic. 193 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:52,000 Yeah, it's interesting isn't it's like the bigger things get the more mainstream they have to get to have an audience. 194 00:30:52,000 --> 00:31:20,000 And it is kind of disappointing. 195 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:28,000 So, thanks to the purpose of our discussion today, which I'm not apologizing at all for going off track and I'll probably do it again. 196 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,000 Thank you for having a grown up arts conversation with me. 197 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,000 I love it. I do love it. 198 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,000 Yeah, so how many kids have you got Jen. 199 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:49,000 I have to. I have Mickey who is 12 and Eloise who's 15 months. Oh, gorgeous. I love that name Eloise that is such a sweet little name. 200 00:31:49,000 --> 00:32:01,000 Oh, that's beautiful. So, two kids at completely different stages of their, of their growing up, how, how you finding that the gap and I'm asking that because I've got seven years between my two. 201 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:08,000 And at times it can be very challenging, but how do you sort of navigate that the differences I suppose the challenges of that. 202 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:23,000 Yeah, we were very wishy washy for 10 years about whether or not we wanted to have another baby. And all of our friends were having pandemic baby so we thought let's have a pandemic baby and so we had a pandemic baby. 203 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:38,000 And, you know, we were really, you know, honestly nervous about how Mickey was going to handle, you know, not being an only child anymore after being an only child for 10 years. 204 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:44,000 And their relationship is so sweet. 205 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,000 She started giving real hugs, just a couple of weeks ago. 206 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:59,000 And she loves they they run at each other and he picks her up and she hugs him around the neck and it's, it's super sweet. 207 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:08,000 And I really like that you know there are things that you know that we do with Mickey that Eloise can't be involved with. 208 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:19,000 You know I took him to see wicked at a theater where two hours in either direction from the closest like big city. 209 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:27,000 So I took him to one of the big cities to see the tour of wicked, and she can't come. 210 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:38,000 Or, we're taking him on a behind the scenes tour of the zoo because he wants to, he wants to be a zookeeper. 211 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,000 And you have to be. 212 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:53,000 He is, we're specifically taking him behind the scenes of the reptile house. And you have to be over eight to come to go to the reptile house so there are these things that we only do with him. 213 00:33:53,000 --> 00:34:04,000 And I think that really helps, you know, strengthen that relationship, since, you know, a lot of attention has to be on her. 214 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:17,000 You know we can't do the same nighttime routine with Mickey anymore that we used to do because Eloise has an earlier bedtime and honestly, I fall asleep with her, a lot of the time. 215 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:24,000 And, but yeah, their, their relationship is really fantastic. I was just thinking the other day that when she graduates from high school. 216 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,000 I'm going to be 60, which is very old. 217 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:35,000 You know, it'll be fine. Yeah, I've done that actually maintain that. 218 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:48,000 Yeah, yeah, that's love. That's really nice. And when you talk about that thinking to the future. I remember one day I was sitting in the car waiting at school pickup, and I worked out how many more years I'll be sitting in the car at this spot for school. 219 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:55,000 I was like, Oh my god, like, it freaked me out for a second, but you don't think about that every day. 220 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:08,000 Yeah, you just, you just get on with your life but yeah I think the saddest moment for me though like I'd never had sort of any, like, sort of regrets or anything about the age gap because it just literally it happened how it had to happen, you know, it couldn't have happened any 221 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:22,000 other way. And, but then when I realized they'll never actually go to school together. I thought, Oh, that's a shame because I really liked, you know, having my sister at school and, you know, just, I think the ease of the drop offs and the pickups you know, one location. 222 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:31,000 But I was like, Oh, and that was really the only time I sort of had a bit of a moment but apart from that. Yeah, but how did you feel. Oh sorry you gone. 223 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:38,000 It's interesting to I work at, at a small private arts based school. 224 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:58,000 And there's a preschool and I work at the elementary I used to work at the preschool. And Mickey was already in elementary school when I started working at this school so we've kept him in public school and he's really thriving in public school. 225 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:08,000 And, Eloise is already registered at the preschool for when she turns to. So for all it's 2024. 226 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:29,000 And it's just a very different, you know, kind of, kind of thing I know from being an extracurricular teacher of Mickey's he's taken some of my theater camps and I used to teach an artful yoga class where you, the kiddos do yoga and then they do an art project that gets 227 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,000 into the creative space. 228 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:39,000 And it's just it does not always work out for me to be Mickey's teacher. 229 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:55,000 And, you know, it might be completely different with Eloise that you know she might be able to be my student and so just kind of thinking about the differences between having a child in public school and having a child in private school. 230 00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:00,000 I mean I don't I don't know how she'll be, but you know, 231 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:08,000 Yeah, no, it's, and I've noticed the differences in how children are educated in the gap. 232 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:24,000 Like, I don't know just the things that Alex used to bring home the eldest about how he was taught to read and particular things around maths and then Digby the little one, it's like they use completely different jargon about talking about things and sometimes I'll 233 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:34,000 find myself saying a thing that Alex used to do like with these called chunk it up when you had a really big, really big word, and you break it into two and it did be looking at what are you talking about. 234 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:51,000 I'm like, Oh, sorry, you don't say that you say something else now. And just get just these all these little differences. It's like, it's been quite interesting because I have my backgrounds in early childhood education so I found it really interesting to see how, you know, these new, I guess new 235 00:37:51,000 --> 00:38:04,000 research has been done and things like that over the years about how you deliver your content or whatever and all the all the new technology that's around now which wasn't around when Alex was a little tucker. 236 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:14,000 Yeah, Mickey, Mickey asked the other day. He was like, Why do you keep changing my rules about how much screen time I'm allowed to have, like how much time on the switch and how much time on the iPad. 237 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:26,000 Because we don't know what we're doing. No one has ever had to do this before. Yeah, we have no idea. 238 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:45,000 I love that. Oh, I love that so much. Yeah, I'll try to figure it out. Yeah, yeah, we're the guinea pig generation when it comes to this. Oh my gosh, it's funny. 239 00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:13,000 Talking about differences, I want to chat about when you when you had Mickey and your transition to becoming a mother, compared to when you had Eloise. 240 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:22,000 How, how did you go with your own identity, I guess and the adjustments in changing from Jen to somebody's mother. 241 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:33,000 Yeah, that's great. That's a great question. Um, when I had Mickey, it was you know it's 31. 242 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:39,000 And most of my friends hadn't yet had children. 243 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:47,000 Being in the Washington DC area at that time people have children, very late. 244 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:56,000 So, I think I knew one couple who had a baby. And so kind of being like you said the guinea pigs. 245 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:02,000 At the time, and kind of having to figure this all out. 246 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:14,000 My parents were relatively close by about 45 minutes away at that time and my mom was one of Mickey's primary caregivers. While I was at work she came three days a week. 247 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:22,000 And he had sitters the other two days, or with my husband, and being able to have my mom there. 248 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:38,000 Being supportive and being really my role model of being a parent because I didn't have well because she's awesome but also because I didn't have any real peers to look at as role models. 249 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:44,000 And just kind of trying to figure it all out at that time. 250 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:53,000 Between when we had Mickey in the Washington DC area, and having Eloise here. 251 00:40:53,000 --> 00:41:03,000 You know we lived, we've kind of slowly gone halfway across the country we made a stop in Michigan which is the little mitten shaped. 252 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:15,000 Up by Canada. And so we made a stop there for two years, and then moved here. And within that 10 years in between Eloise and Mickey. 253 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:20,000 You know now that I'm in my 40s my husband's in his 40s now. 254 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:31,000 Most of our friends are finished having babies. Yeah. And so, you know, we don't feel like we're starting from scratch we don't feel like we're starting. 255 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:43,000 Not knowing anything and in fact, our friends are very thankful that we're helping them clean out their basements and garages and giving us all the things. 256 00:41:43,000 --> 00:42:02,000 But it feels. Even with all the changes you know there there are apps for everything now and, you know, having online communities now that didn't exist back in 2011. 257 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:13,000 Feels less like we're reinventing ourselves and more like yeah this is just how this is. 258 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,000 Yeah, that makes sense. 259 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:22,000 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I could kind of relate to that and the way you've heard that that kind of makes sense. 260 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:30,000 Yeah, because it's new, but it's not new in a way, you know, it's, yeah, it's familiar at the same time. 261 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:40,000 Did you have children. Yeah. Yeah. So like, you know, Mickey was sleeping in his own room at two months and sleeping through the night at four months. 262 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:48,000 Eloise moved out of our room at six months, and still isn't sleeping through the night. Yeah. 263 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:58,000 And never got the crib transfer and so we're using a floor bed with her instead of a crib and things like that. There are definitely new things to learn but it's not a complete reinvent. 264 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:09,000 Yeah, see that's interesting isn't it like my two are completely different, same sort of thing like, I know what you said then just, yeah, sounds very similar. 265 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:25,000 And it's like, you're getting to know the child, like you sort of you know the ups you know the, the physical, the caring role the routine, but it's getting to know this little person and that's something I found really actually quite exciting about having another child. 266 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:39,000 I love to putting it off for so long was that it's like, oh, I get to meet a new person and find out what they're like and what they like and what they don't like and all this sort of stuff. It was actually something I hadn't really thought of when I'm, when I, you know, the 267 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,000 overwhelm of having your first child. 268 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:52,000 It's just like, and you stop to think, yeah, when and being older to, did you find that like have physically being older yourself being older like I had digs. 269 00:43:52,000 --> 00:44:00,000 I was 29 I reckon I had him a few months before I turned 30 and digs. What's that seven years after that. 270 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:12,000 I just felt like so much more content in myself as a person, you know, especially moving quite close to 40s when I think that's the time when you literally decide you don't give a shit about anything. 271 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:32,000 Absolutely and feeling so much like, like I don't have to prove anything to anybody that I was when I was pregnant with Mickey, I was, I was the education program manager of a regional children's theater, and I was teaching theater classes, five days a week, 272 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:47,000 and I would still, you know, eight months pregnant squat down on the floor and things like this is what I do for my job and I'm with Eloise, I was at like six months I was like I can't walk up the hill to the playground anymore. 273 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,000 Get me a chair. 274 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:53,000 What else is going to happen that sorry. 275 00:44:53,000 --> 00:45:02,000 Yeah, just like, I'm going to ask for what I need and people are going to understand and that's going to be okay. Yeah, yes, that's okay. 276 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,000 Now go and you go. 277 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:09,000 Yeah, I think like a big thing for me though is that I wish. 278 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:27,000 I think this is this is always the case with people who have second children, third children, fourth children, whatever, I'm not going there. 279 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:41,000 I'm not going to be the living part, but I wish that, you know, in between the time that I had Mickey and the time that I had Eloise, my understanding of early childhood education fine motor skills gross motor skills. 280 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,000 The arts. 281 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:47,000 How to provide experiences to children. 282 00:45:47,000 --> 00:46:02,000 And the physical location that we're in has changed so much that like now, you know we go on nature walks, and there wasn't that in. 283 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:19,000 That I knew of in Washington DC, or, you know, we, you know, have these, you know, tactile experiences and toys that, you know, are more open ended and things like that. 284 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:29,000 You know I know how to create things for Eloise that I know how to create for Mickey. And so I wish that he had been able to have those experiences as well. 285 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:50,000 Yeah, yeah, I can relate to that too. 286 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:58,000 You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was a human. 287 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:04,000 Do you, I guess, this mom guilt thing it's a big one that I like to talk about. 288 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,000 What's your thoughts about that whole thing. 289 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:15,000 Oh it absolutely exists, at least for me, I can't speak for anybody else but so I'm Jewish. 290 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:21,000 And we have lots of guilt everywhere all the time. 291 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:25,000 generational trauma. 292 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:39,000 But I think it comes from so many different places that you just internalize it without meaning to. 293 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:45,000 I have my husband is incredibly supportive. 294 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:58,000 He's a wonderful dad, a wonderful partner, and I still feel bad telling him that I want to take a pottery class, because it's going to take me away from the family. 295 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:16,000 It is absolutely nothing that he has done or expressed or would do or express in fact when I tell him, hey, I really want to take this pottery class he goes, good. You should in that tone of voice. 296 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:23,000 But I feel guilty about taking that time away. 297 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:29,000 I was just talking about the positive influences of having online communities. 298 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:47,000 But there's absolutely negatives with that as well. It's, you know, I found some wonderful supportive communities but, you know, I still feel the need to say like, oh we watch such and such. 299 00:48:47,000 --> 00:49:01,000 We're not a no screen time family. Like I feel like we're not no screen time or, oh, Eloise had, oh she had a peanut M&M the other day. 300 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:10,000 And I watched her like a hawk. I mean like, yeah, it's like this caveat. Yeah. Yeah. 301 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:23,000 And so there are wonderful things about that online community and then just things that make you stop for a second, not that anyone is necessarily actually judging you. 302 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:40,000 Yeah. The assumption that someone will. Yeah, that culture that we've sort of become familiar with I suppose that that's what we should expect to happen when we share things like that. Yeah. 303 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:53,000 I found I've deliberately stopped following people that make me feel challenged like that. I feel like, oh, if such and such read this or somebody saw this, I'd feel uncomfortable. So I've really done. 304 00:49:53,000 --> 00:50:07,000 I do it every now and then. Just go through the list and go, no, actually not feeling it. And try to try to have on my feed people that I don't know, are very similar to me in their values, I guess. 305 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:13,000 It's a good way to put it. Yeah. We just started with a new sitter. 306 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:25,000 And she has a reggio Emilia background. I have a reggio Emilia background. And, you know, that can go a couple of different ways. 307 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:42,000 You could be super crunchy, you know, all the super crunchy things. Or you could potentially be, I call myself crunchy but realistic. Yeah. I exist in this world and this is where I am. 308 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:56,000 So we were interviewing, I would say, oh, you know, we're not no screen time. And she goes, you watch Bluey? Oh yeah, we watch Bluey. Oh, love Bluey. Oh, love. 309 00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:15,000 Bluey is not as into it yet as I am. But oh, it's the best. These parents. Yes. I'll tell you, last night we were watching, we had Bluey on and everyone else left the room but me. And I just sat there and watched it. I watched it for about two hours by myself laughing my head off. 310 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:23,000 Can I ask though, do you guys get the humor, the Australian humor, like that, because Bandit can be quite colloquial. 311 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:36,000 I don't think we get all of it. But I think like what goes over our heads, just like we don't know. You don't know that you don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to be a chilly healer when I grow up. 312 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:40,000 You know. She's awesome. Good old chilly. 313 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:54,000 I love the stickers in her car and like it's just feels very real. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that her car is so messy. The messy car is what I can relate to. And there was a joke in one of the episodes where her sister comes to visit and the kids have never met the sister. 314 00:51:54,000 --> 00:52:10,000 And somebody, I think it was Bingo, had a onesie on that turned her into a cheater or something. Anyway, they were hiding in the car. That's where I'm going with this. And chilly said, that's okay. We won't die because there's food under the seats. 315 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:19,000 And I was like, yes, you can see it in my car. Like, I feel really validated right now. Not judged. 316 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:27,000 Absolutely. Oh, dear. Yeah. Sorry. I hijacked. You were talking about Bluey and then you were going to say something else and I just jumped in. Sorry. 317 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:39,000 And I have to tell you that this is the way that parents in America also respond when I say Bluey. Everyone always goes do do do do do do do do. And like everybody does it. 318 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:53,000 Yeah. Yeah. This woman. I say, yeah, she goes, you watch Miss Rachel. I'm like, yeah, we watch Bluey and Miss Rachel and Sesame Street. Yeah. Oh, yeah. 319 00:52:53,000 --> 00:53:12,000 And then there was something else. We're talking about food and how we both have the same. We have the same kind of outlook on food for our kids where we like, you know, we try to be nutritious, but also where everything in moderation. 320 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:27,000 People set the kids up for positive associations with food and positive relationships with their bodies. And so it just made me feel real good that like, here's this person with this background in early childhood education and the arts. 321 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:36,000 And we have the same kind of outlook on on things and that she's not going to make me feel like I should have cloth diapers. You know? 322 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:50,000 Yeah, that's it, isn't it? And when like when you go, she does all this different stuff. It's like, oh, I'll do this while she's not here. And when she gets back, it'll be like, you know, yeah. And I don't know, like, I've been looking after kids for a long time in my job. 323 00:53:50,000 --> 00:54:14,000 And I don't know, I feel like most people are, I don't know what the word is, they are the screen time parents, they are the snack parents. Most people like that. Like that's what we are. But then the voices in the not that section are really loud and then they make us feel bad about our choices or what we do with our kids. 324 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:26,000 So I don't know how you block out the noise, but yeah, it's a hard one. It is a tough one. Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that about that. I find it really interesting. 325 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:43,000 I shouldn't say I feel it. It's interesting talking to people about their guilt. I sound like I'm like some sort of creeper. But I just find it fascinating how, you know, people's, their cultural background, the location, their upbringing and everything that goes into creating a person. 326 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:51,000 How that affects how your parent and I just find it so fascinating. So yeah, thanks for indulging me there. 327 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:39,000 Do you find that for you to create, to continue to create and not just in, you know, your profession, but also the things you do at home, like you're talking about all the things you like to do. Do you feel like that's really important for you to maintain for you, for yourself? 328 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:53,000 Yeah, I think a big thing for me, I'm a person with anxiety and depression. And I think, and I know that that's something that comes up a lot in these conversations. Yeah, it's very common. Yeah. 329 00:55:53,000 --> 00:56:11,000 I, when I found pottery, you know, I'm a perfectionist. That's part of how my anxiety manifests in perfectionism and then procrastination. Because if things can't be perfect, then why do them? 330 00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:30,000 When I found pottery, you can't be perfect with it, especially when you're first starting out. And if you make something that's awful, and you fire it, then your mom will want it. And that's great. 331 00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:42,000 And your mom always, my mom, I don't know about other people, but my mom always makes me feel good about stuff. So she's got a couple of really terrible things that I've made. 332 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:49,000 My dad also, my dad is also very excellent. They share the bathroom, but I give them to my mom. 333 00:56:49,000 --> 00:57:03,000 And if something flops on the wheel, or it doesn't work out when you're hand building it, you squish it, and you let it dry out a little bit, so it's not completely full of water. 334 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:20,000 And then you do something else, and you try again. And just knowing that it's not going to be perfect, it can't be perfect. And that is okay. And then you can squish it. 335 00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:36,000 It was just so, like my very first class, it was so just affirming. And now I can make things that you can use, and I made this mug that I'm drinking out of. 336 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:40,000 It's gorgeous. Is that blue? Is it blue and brown? 337 00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:44,000 It's like a Tiffany blue. 338 00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:45,000 Yeah, it's gorgeous. 339 00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:56,000 And then brown and I, you know, and I thank you. And I keep learning things and you can hold it and put something in it that will nourish your body. 340 00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:03,000 And, you know, I keep learning new techniques and I learned how to facet. 341 00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:18,000 I found that I was like, oh my gosh, that's so cool. I want to make everything. And right now I'm taking a class about surface decoration and I'm learning how to scratch away colors and how to do lino prints and things like that and clay. 342 00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:28,000 And it's, it's just fun. And if it doesn't work out, the stakes are so low. 343 00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:29,000 Yeah. 344 00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:34,000 But if you make something beautiful or something useful. 345 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:51,000 Those stakes are super high and like you've you've done this thing that can help nourish your body or your, your home. I find that the things that I like to do. I was thinking about this today. 346 00:58:51,000 --> 00:59:05,000 The things that I like to do theater, pottery, quilting, baking, require other people's active participation. 347 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:22,000 And so it's this nurturing instinct. These are things that sometimes maybe I do them by myself, but the people, the other people involved aren't passive participants. 348 00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:36,000 And so I find that, you know, maybe I read somewhere someone said, you know, people think I like embroidery because it's soothing and meditative but really I just get to stab something over and over again. 349 00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:40,000 And I felt that very deeply in my soul. 350 00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,000 I've never thought of it that way. 351 00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:55,000 Me either until I read that and I was like, yes, that is exactly. Yes. And when I make my quilts, it's I completely hand piece and hand quilt. 352 00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:59,000 I can't be bothered to load a Bob and I don't know how to do it. It's fine. 353 00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:01,000 It's more trouble than it's worth. 354 01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:14,000 You know, I really feel that. Yeah, I am looking at my sewing machine right now. I don't use it right there. I'm not even sewing by hand. 355 01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:39,000 But I can take it with me to a waiting room and do that there. But then when I finished a quilt, you know, you can you can snuggle or you can say, where's Eloise, or you can, you know, take it to a picnic and sit. 356 01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:50,000 And so there are these. And then with baking you eat it. That's better than having to bake. My husband does baking most of the time. 357 01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:55,000 But I, making a cake, man, that's the best. 358 01:00:55,000 --> 01:01:11,000 Oh, yes. My, my little one. He loves making cakes because he gets to lick the beaters. And that is, oh yeah, that's it. He doesn't eat it afterwards. So we make these cakes and they're sitting there like, oh, better eat this cake as I can't let it go to waste. 359 01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,000 You know, damn. Yeah. 360 01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:26,000 But yeah, it's and then we may. Yeah. And if we make something else with the batter is not that consistency. He's not interested in helping me at all. Like, it's like he just has to lick the beaters. And it's like this ritual. 361 01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:39,000 I remember as a kid, like getting to lick the beaters when, when we'd, Mum had finished her cooking and, you know, I probably always wanted the one with the most on it. So, you know, I always make sure I give him the one that he wants. 362 01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:53,000 I think the one that whatever I get, you know, I don't know. It's just creating those, the traditions, I suppose that, you know, to teach him how to do it properly too. Cause you don't, you got to not waste any of it. So, you know. 363 01:01:53,000 --> 01:02:06,000 So Mickey knows when I'm baking, if he's not involved and I go, Hey, Mickey, I have a really important job. He knows that means he gets to lick the beaters. Like that's the, he knows what his important job is. 364 01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:23,000 I love that. Cause that's the thing when your kids get older, like things that they were quite happy to do when they're starting to be on a teenager, it's like, Oh, I'm actually not interested in that anymore. But that's a lovely way that he'll probably always continue to be involved. Cause who can say no to licking the beaters? 365 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,000 Right? Right? 366 01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:54,000 That's so lovely. That's really nice. I love that. 367 01:02:54,000 --> 01:03:21,000 So with that, I mean, this next question probably won't apply so much to Eloise at this stage of her life, but with Mickey, do you find it important that he sees you as someone who's not just there? And I say just, I shouldn't say just not there only to be in a mothering role for his benefit or for the household's benefit, but you're also your own person and you do things that don't involve anybody else sometimes. 368 01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:41,000 Absolutely. I think my mom is the most incredible role model in a lot of ways. But one of those is that she, you know, she was a stay at home mom. And then when I was 10 years old, she went to college. She hadn't gone to college. 369 01:03:41,000 --> 01:04:03,000 So this wasn't going back to school. This was her first go. And so seeing that she was going and getting a degree and doing that set that as a role model for me. I mean, also partly that like, I would be struggling with my homework at the same time that she was struggling with her homework. 370 01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:20,000 And so that was a really great. It wasn't great that she was struggling. It was a great thing, a great thing to see that she was, you know, making these efforts to do something that she really wanted to do. 371 01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:42,000 And so that was sort of my role model in that way that, you know, you can be a mom, which is really awesome and also be your own person. And I always kind of struggle a little bit when I'm writing like the Instagram tagline or an artist statement. 372 01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:56,000 What do I put first? And if I don't put mom first, what does that mean for my identity? But if I do put mom first, what does that mean for my identity? 373 01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:59,000 Yeah, it's a double edged sword, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. 374 01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:16,000 Yeah. Do I want to be in an outward facing way? 375 01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:35,000 Can I get a little bit political? Of course you can. Absolutely. I'd welcome that. Yes. 376 01:05:35,000 --> 01:06:01,000 So Missouri has been making some laws that are against what my family and I personally believe about the right for every human being to be a human being. And there was a trans rights rally in the state capitol, which is just about a half hour away from where we live. 377 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:15,000 And it happened to be a day that neither Mickey nor I had school. And I asked him, I was like, hey, but do you want to, neither of us have school. Do you want to go to the trans rights rally? And he was like, yes, absolutely. 378 01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:34,000 Oh, good on him. And Eloise came too, but didn't have a choice. So, you know, but it's, you know, important. I think, you know, he can be whoever he is, whoever he wants to be. 379 01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:50,000 But I think it's important that he knows, you know, that we are all political beings and that we make choices in this world to speak up for ourselves and to speak up for other people. 380 01:06:50,000 --> 01:07:08,000 So, you know, talk about like life is politics. You can't leave politics out of a conversation. I actually just commented that on a parenting message board where they were like, oh, shouldn't, you know, can't we just have one space where we can keep politics out of it? 381 01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:20,000 I don't understand why. I just, life is politics. My body is political. My parenting is political. My teaching is political. Like life is politics. 382 01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:28,000 Yeah, literally. It's all, it all overlaps. Like we can't be who we are. We couldn't be who we are if it wasn't for the political environment that we're in. 383 01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:39,000 So absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. My parents were protesters in the 60s. So I found my dad's conscientious objector card from the Vietnam War. 384 01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:41,000 Beautiful. Yes. 385 01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:45,000 Which is pretty rad. 386 01:07:45,000 --> 01:08:00,000 But, but yeah, I think that for, for kids to know that their parents are caregivers and also that it's important for them to take care of themselves. 387 01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:04,000 Never thought about it that way until it just came out of my mouth. That's what it is. 388 01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:15,000 It's amazing in a nutshell, literally, isn't it? Like that's it. Because if you don't look after yourself, you don't care for yourself, you can't look after anybody else. 389 01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:21,000 And going back to what you're saying about involving your son in the politics, I think it's really important to do that. 390 01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:33,000 And I was having this conversation with someone, I can't remember, a while ago maybe, about the way the generation's, certainly in Australia, I'm not, you know, obviously familiar with, with how it's been going over there. 391 01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:42,000 My parents and my grandparents would never tell me who they voted for. Like they wouldn't, we have the, we have the two parties here, the main parties, you've got the Liberal and Labour. 392 01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:54,000 And Liberal is meant to be Liberal, but it's not the right word to describe that party because they're not, they're not modern, they're not progressive, they're not for the people, they're sort of the opposite. 393 01:08:54,000 --> 01:09:05,000 They're the right wingers. And the left wing is the Labour Party, which is, you know, for the working man and for the arts and for all the good things that I believe in. 394 01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:20,000 Yes. And yeah, so yeah, I didn't find out who my family voted for for a very long time. And there's also this culture over here, and I guess it's the same everywhere, that you sort of, you don't necessarily vote for who your parents voted for, because they voted for that. 395 01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:26,000 But you're brought up in that particular way that it's more likely you're going to vote that way, I guess. 396 01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:34,000 It'd be pretty radical if you sort of went off the other way, I guess. So yeah, I sort of worked it out just by accident as I got older. 397 01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:42,000 And I remember asking my Nana once, like, because it was voting day and they went off and voted. And I said, who do you vote for? She goes, oh, no, you don't ask people that. You can't, you can't ask people that. 398 01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:52,000 And I'm really glad now that the politics is such an open conversation, because, you know, my son's almost 16. We voted 18 over here. 399 01:09:52,000 --> 01:10:00,000 And it's, I don't want him walking into a polling booth one day just going, oh, OK, so what's this all about? What do I do here? 400 01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:09,000 You know, like, I want him to grow up understanding the culture that we live in and how the politics obviously, as we said before, it's a fundamental part of our lives. 401 01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:18,000 And we often joke, you know, my husband has been a Liberal voter for a long time and I've been a Labor voter forever. 402 01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:32,000 And we chat to my son about the differences and why, you know, a political in a certain circumstance or over a particular issue, why I feel the way I do and why the way dad feels the way he does, you know. 403 01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:49,000 So I'm not telling him he has to vote for either or whatever. I simply want him to have an understanding of how these parties and what they believe in will affect him as a person and the decisions that he'll make in his life moving forward and in his children's life if he has them. 404 01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:57,000 So, yeah, I'm I'm all for it. I think it's wonderful to get kids involved as early as you can, as early as is appropriate or as you believe. 405 01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:05,000 And I think it's also for your child and your family, because like you said, it's it's all intertwined. You can't have one without the other. 406 01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:13,000 My husband is actually a professor of political science. That's what brought us to Missouri. Awesome. 407 01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:31,000 And his father is also a professor of political science. Yeah. And so like he knows who his father and whose parents had voted for because, you know, he was out on campaign trails and, you know, doing research and things like that. 408 01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:46,000 With Do you know the American sitcom from the 80s? Family Ties? Oh, yes, very much. Yes. Yes. Yes. So with Alex P Keaton, who was a Reagan Republican, while his parents were hippies. 409 01:11:46,000 --> 01:12:02,000 And so I think about that pretty frequently that like, you know, you can be anything you want to be, but like, don't don't do that. It's been over the last several very scary years. 410 01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:17,000 Yes. With, you know, people are changing from what, you know, they had traditionally been voting either for better or for worse. 411 01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:32,000 And people have started having these conversations more and more frequently as, you know, you become empowered to tell, you know, especially older relatives like, hey, it's not okay that you talk that way. 412 01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:37,000 Yes, we had a member of our family come out as transgender. 413 01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:52,000 And, you know, a couple, was it just last year? I think it was just last year. And, you know, having to, you know, teach their 90 something year old grandmother. 414 01:12:52,000 --> 01:13:12,000 You know, the other relatives who are of our parents generation, you know, what that means and that they are still the same person. They just, you know, have a name and a, you know, and other stuff that fits them better now. 415 01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:22,000 And, you know, we, plus this current generation that like, we, we told Mickey, we're like, hey, here's, here's what's going on with this member of our family. 416 01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:26,000 Do you have any questions? And he's like, no. 417 01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:30,000 And we like randomly ran into this family member. 418 01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:44,000 We knew that we were going to the same place on a family vacation, but we didn't know we look around into them on the beach. Yeah, and we hung out with them for a while and then they went their way and we went our way. 419 01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:49,000 And we looked at Mickey we're like so see same same exact person. 420 01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:54,000 He looks at me he goes, I know. 421 01:13:54,000 --> 01:14:04,000 Yeah, no, like, no, like nerves or anything. It's like, yes. No. Yeah. Yeah, it's wonderful. Isn't it. 422 01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:10,000 We are, you know, of minority religion. 423 01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:15,000 But we don't wear our minority on the outside. 424 01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:19,000 I am also of a minority gender, I am a woman. 425 01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:29,000 But, you know, for all intents and purposes, at least as far as we know now, Mickey is cisgender straight white male. 426 01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:41,000 And we have spoken pretty frequently about, you know that, you know, he's got a responsibility to speak up for people who don't have those appearances. 427 01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:43,000 Yeah, yeah. 428 01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:49,000 And, you know, I'm sorry that we've had to have those conversations. 429 01:14:49,000 --> 01:15:11,000 My husband, but I'm glad that we have had them. My husband is not Jewish. And when, you know conversations about, you know, there was a right wing awful protests where they were chanting the Jews will not replace us. 430 01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:18,000 And things like that. And he was like, well, you know, conversations about the Holocaust and things like that. 431 01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:22,000 He's like, well, isn't Mickey too young to hear about these things? 432 01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:25,000 And I'm like, I don't ever remember not knowing. Yeah. 433 01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:29,000 Like, I don't remember a time in my life when I didn't know what the Holocaust was. 434 01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:31,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 435 01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:44,000 It wasn't like this moment where you remember getting sat down and told it was like part of your culture, part of your, it was there. A very visible part of, of, yeah, knowing. Yeah. 436 01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:57,000 Yeah, yeah. It's an important part of being a human being. And, you know, when people talk about bringing it back to the arts, you know, when people talk about the arts, well can't they just not be political. 437 01:15:57,000 --> 01:16:04,000 Why do actors have to talk about politics? Why do the arts are political? The arts have always been political. 438 01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:15,000 When we read Richard the third, we have to remember that, you know, Shakespeare's patron was Queen Elizabeth the first. 439 01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:23,000 And her, now I'm going to get the lineage wrong. It was either her grandfather or her father. No, it wasn't her father. It was her grandfather. 440 01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:33,000 Her father was Henry the eighth. It was her grandfather, who is the hero who slays Richard at the end of the play. Richard the third is political propaganda. 441 01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:36,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 442 01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:42,000 Theatre is always political. Art is always political. Period. Yeah. 443 01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:54,000 We actually had this big thing happen in Australia recently, or not recently now, a few, few months ago. Was it last year? I can't remember now. Time's just a construct really. 444 01:16:54,000 --> 01:17:01,000 As we were saying before. But yeah, there was this lady. She's the richest person in Australia. 445 01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:09,000 I'm not going to honour her by saying her name because I don't believe in her beliefs and her thoughts and her things. So, 446 01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:14,000 she won't be listening, so it doesn't matter. But Australians will know who I'm talking about. 447 01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:17,000 She has a lot of minds that she inherited from her father. 448 01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:24,000 And anyway, she was sponsoring one of the netball teams. 449 01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:31,000 And one of the netball players is an Indigenous Australian First Nations person. 450 01:17:31,000 --> 01:17:40,000 And she made a comment that she wasn't really impressed by the comments that this rich person's father had said about Aboriginal people. 451 01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:46,000 He'd said it back in the 80s. And it wasn't appropriate then, but never obviously got called out then. 452 01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:58,000 But so this woman's sort of response to that was to take all the money away from them, took all of their funding away so they didn't have a sponsor. 453 01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:05,000 And most women in Australia that play professional sport, they have a day job because they can't get sponsorship. 454 01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:11,000 So they're not full-time professional athletes, unlike the men who get a lot of money. 455 01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:21,000 Anyway, this rich person made the comment that sport and politics should never mix. 456 01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:31,000 And it just reminded me when you said about the arts, it's like, particularly in a country like Australia where sport is like a religion, it is like a way of life for people. 457 01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:38,000 And politics overlaps everything, like we've said. It just reminded me of that. And I thought, I'll mention it. 458 01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:43,000 I don't know why it's taken me so long to get it out. But that was my point. 459 01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:55,000 Yes, absolutely. No, I totally and I have all of these thoughts spinning in my head about like, it's the same thing has happened in America. 460 01:18:55,000 --> 01:19:01,000 We play the national anthem before all of our sporting events, which, yeah, let's take politics out of it. 461 01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:06,000 Why do we play the national anthem before all of our sporting events? Yeah, whatever. Yeah. 462 01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:14,000 But then a few years ago, people started kneeling during the national anthem. 463 01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:27,000 They don't really stand for what the national anthem stands for and got kicked off of teams and their sponsors taken away and things like that. 464 01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:39,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. That really annoyed me. That did that whole the taking the knee, like, honestly, it's a wonderful thing to do. 465 01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:48,000 And then it just got turned into this, I don't know, white persons again, taking over and saying what everybody can do or can't do. 466 01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:55,000 It's like back to the colonial days. Sorry, that's not a very nice thing to say. But that's what it reminded me of. 467 01:19:55,000 --> 01:20:01,000 You are absolutely I 100% agree with you. Yes. Yeah, it's horrible. 468 01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:07,000 Well, thank you. No, thanks for talking about that stuff. I like a good chat about politics. 469 01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:20,000 And I do. Yeah, it's and it's I do like to hear about other countries, how they're going with stuff too, because I mean, I, I consume a lot of media, particularly independent media, but there's nothing like hearing it. 470 01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:33,000 Not from the horse's mouth. I'm sorry. You know what I mean? Getting a person's perspective, living it right now. Yeah. But Jesus, some stuff going on over there. 471 01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:42,000 I watch what's happening in America and Jesus, I feel sorry for you guys. I just think, oh, can you imagine do you think one day it will actually become two countries? 472 01:20:42,000 --> 01:21:00,000 Like, is it that bad that people just have to not be near each other? And that's a really simplistic thing to say. But yeah, it's wild because like where I live would absolutely be the part of the country that I don't agree with. 473 01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:18,000 Because that's, yeah, that's who I am. And it's so interesting because the two major cities, St. Louis and Kansas City, St. Louis, in particular, is so much more liberal, liberal, like actual liberal. 474 01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:31,000 Than the rest of Missouri. But just the way that political lines are drawn. That's the thing. Our political lines are drawn just horribly. Yeah, right. 475 01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:54,000 And you know, there's, you know, Missouri is one of nine states in the country that has a compulsory Holocaust education. Right. Which is wild to me. Like, it's amazing. Yeah. But that's 100% because of lobbyists in St. Louis. Yeah, okay. 476 01:21:54,000 --> 01:22:12,000 And, you know, where I live right now in Columbia is this like, so the left is blue and the right is red. So we're in this tiny little blue dot in the sea of red. Yeah, right. 477 01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:32,000 And apparently, you know, for a major part because the university is here. But yeah, it's wild. Like it is. Yeah. It's, and like I don't, you know, people say like, well, if you don't like it, go someplace else. 478 01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:45,000 So well, you know, but then I couldn't make change happen. Not that I one person I'm going to make change happen. I know what you mean though. It's like you're abandoning the opportunity to be involved in challenging what they're happening. What's happening here, I guess. 479 01:22:45,000 --> 01:23:00,000 Yeah. But at the same time, like I know families with transgender children who are leaving the state because they have. Oh, you'd fear, you'd fear for your safety. Like, from what I've seen over here. Yeah, if that's accurate. Yeah, it's pretty appalling. 480 01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:04,000 It's really, it's really appalling. Reproductive rates as well. It's. Oh, yes. 481 01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:21,000 Oh man. All the things. Yeah. Yeah, jeepers. And it's funny though. I would say, oh, this is a reasonable guess. Almost 100% of people I've talked to on this show. I don't know if it's an arts thing, but they're always left leaning voters. 482 01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:39,000 If it's a thing about compassion and, you know, listening to people emotion sharing, supporting each other. It's always the arts people. It's just an inherent thing. Yeah. Well, it's interesting reading or I was wearing. 483 01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:55,000 I have a shirt that says I'm with the band, but it's B-A-N-N-E-D. I love that. Band books. I wore it to work the other day and one of the fifth graders said to me, you know, is that about band books? And I said, yeah. 484 01:23:55,000 --> 01:24:05,000 And she said, why do people ban books? And I said, because they don't want to ask questions about things. They just want to get rid of things that they don't understand. 485 01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:33,000 And then she gave me a big high five. But I think that that brings it all back to the power of positivity and asking questions. And I think that artists are in a specifically a uniquely appropriate place to be able to ask those questions and try to understand things that aren't necessarily part of their world. 486 01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:59,000 We talk about in education, we talk about providing children with windows, mirrors and sliding glass doors in our libraries. So the books that we have on our shelves should give a mirror so that they see themselves windows so that they can see other people's experiences and sliding glass doors so they can walk through and experience themselves with empathy. 487 01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:10,000 And I think that that is something that left leaning people are more willing to do than right leaning people are. 488 01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:37,000 Yeah, yeah, that was very well said. I love that. 489 01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:52,000 I actually have we have a family from Australia in our school. Yeah, and students because we have an emerging curriculum. We get to just answer the questions that the kiddos are interested in exploring. Yeah, give them education. 490 01:25:52,000 --> 01:26:09,000 And we were talking about, try to remember what exactly we were talking about. Oh, we were talking about if cultures all over the world celebrate things in December in exactly the same ways. 491 01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:22,000 Yeah, and so they understand their celebrate, you know, we don't celebrate holidays at work, but obviously like most of the kiddos in our school celebrate Christmas. So we talked about Christmas a lot. Yeah. 492 01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:33,000 And so they're like, well, Christmas is snowmen and reindeer. And so we talked about how reindeer are from Lapland and where Lapland is. 493 01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:44,000 And then I asked Karen, who's the mom from Australia, I was like, Can you come in and talk to my class? 494 01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:55,000 How you celebrate Christmas in Australia? Yeah, absolutely. So she brought like Christmas crackers and stuff and it was super fun. They were all like, wait, there's no snow. 495 01:26:55,000 --> 01:27:05,000 And he's like, no, it's summer. It's super hot. We're sweltering. But we wish there was snow. Yeah, it's fascinating. 496 01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:34,000 Fantastic conversation. 497 01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:43,000 So one of your questions that you had on your website was me to find new ways to work so you could continue creating. Yes. Yes. 498 01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:52,000 I thought that was super interesting because I actually didn't start doing any of this until I had kids. Yeah, right. 499 01:27:52,000 --> 01:28:16,000 So I was a theater, so I was doing all the theater stuff, which has definitely changed since I had kids. Yeah. But I didn't discover the visual stuff until when I was teaching in the theater and realized, 500 01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:27,000 Oh, if I was going to teach theater to kindergartners and first graders, I was going to need to learn how to teach visual arts. Yeah, because I was going to have to have them sit down and draw things. 501 01:28:27,000 --> 01:28:38,000 And I was going to have to, you know, have them create things. And so it wasn't until I was in my late 20s that I started doing those things. 502 01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:53,000 And that was completely inspired by my students I was teaching. And just having discovered I didn't pick up a ukulele until I was pregnant with Mickey because I wanted to have an instrument that I could play for and with my child. 503 01:28:53,000 --> 01:29:17,000 Yeah. And so, you know, baking came about after I had Mickey really because I wanted that sensory thing to do with him. And all of these things have come about relatively recently quilting in December 2020 because I wanted something that I could do during the 504 01:29:17,000 --> 01:29:32,000 pandemic. Yeah, at my house. And so I knew myself as a theater creative, but I didn't know myself with these other things until I was already a mom. 505 01:29:32,000 --> 01:30:00,000 Oh, hey, that's really cool. Yeah. 506 01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:12,000 It's been so lovely chatting with you Jen. I've really really enjoyed it. It's been great. And yeah, again, thank you for indulging me in the political side of things because that is one of my favorite things to talk about. 507 01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:22,000 But it's been fascinating and learning all about the dramaturgy which I didn't even know was a thing. And I just yeah it's it thank you for sharing so much I really appreciate it. 508 01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:28,000 Absolutely. Thank you for having grown up conversations with me they can be few and far between. 509 01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:35,000 I'm happy to indulge anytime you need one just let me know. 510 01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:48,000 Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend you think might be interested. 511 01:30:48,000 --> 01:31:00,000 The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alemjo, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband John. 512 01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:05,000 If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. 513 01:31:05,000 --> 01:31:12,000 If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. 514 01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:18,000 I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. 515 01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:44,000 Yeah. 516 01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:13,000 Yeah. 517 01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:43,000 Yeah. 518 01:33:12,000 --> 01:33:13,000 Yeah. 519 01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:43,000 Yeah. 520 01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:13,000 Yeah. 521 01:34:42,000 --> 01:34:43,000 Yeah.

Jedda Glynn South Australian florist, designer and small business owner S1 Ep19 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Jedda Glynn is a designer and small business owner from Burrungule, South Australia and a mother of 3. Jedda Grew up in a small country town, surrounded by a creative family. She’s been a dancer her whole life, running the Kongorong Calisthenics Club for many years, and recently starting her own small business, The Springs Creative, where Jedda arranges rustic dried flowers, with the help of her young children. We chat about how being creative kept her sane during a difficult time in her life, the joy of sharing the creative side of the business with her children and the importance of having a supportive family around her, and the perks of living in the country and raising children on a farm. **This episode contains discussions around domestic violence and an abusive relationship** Connect with Jedda on Instagram Find out about Squib Group Find out more about the Kongorong Calisthenics Club Connect with the podcast here Music used with permission in this episode is from Alison Newman and Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... elcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with the music played, and the link to find the podcast on Instagram. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship that traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. Thank you for joining me. My guest today on the podcast is Jeddah clean. Jeddah is a designer and small business owner from barren gold, South Australia, and a mother of three jeder grew up in a small country town surrounded by a creative family. She's been a dancer for her whole life, running the conga and calisthenics club for many years. And recently, she started her own business, the springs created where She arranges rustic dried flowers with the help of her young children. Today, we chat about how being creative kept her sane during a difficult time in her life. The joy of sharing the creative side of the business with her children, the importance of having a supportive family around her and the perks of living in the country and raising children on a farm. Please be aware this episode contains discussions around domestic violence and abusive relationship. MUSIC Today is used with permission from Alison Newman, and LM Joe. Welcome, Jenna, thank you so much for coming on today. Thanks for having me. Your project is called the springs creative. Can you tell us about that and how you got started and what you make? Um, well, it's very, a very new business. Earlier in the, my partner took myself and our kids on a little holiday up to Victor Harbor. And I just snuck away from them for a while and went through a little market that they had along the foreshore and I noticed a lady up there was selling like bunches of dried wheat and little ponytails and things which we see on the side of the roads down here everywhere. Like it's a very rainy, a lovely little nature. I concept I guess. Yeah. And that's, I don't know identities, were something that I can do here on the farm. I can go out exploring with kids. And we can cut down the branches of trees that we like or that have flowers in the garden. And we just tried to dry some and it worked out really easy. So I decided, oh, let's sell them for Mother's Day. So I put together I think it was 30 odd little recycled jars with some bunches in them and started a little Instagram platform. And it sort of escalated from there. And I had it was messaging me for weddings coming up this season. And then I decided to create a website. And yeah, the little businesses grown and grown from there. So we called it the springs creative because that's where we are in Baringo it's called a little area code the springs and where we live runs alongside the Springs Road so it's sort of just clicked that little Yeah, idea. Yeah, that's great. And yes, have a look on on the Instagram. Anyone that's listening to this because they're just gorgeous. They're They're very, it's it's different, isn't it? They? I guess because they're dry. They're gonna last and last and last. They're not like the fresh flowers that are gonna do they're gonna wilt in and die. They just look amazing. You've got a real talent to for these. Putting them together. Have you always been sort of a creative person making things? I guess so. Even as a little girl I didn't have that many dolls I was writing to pencils and paper and drawing and in my room and making things my my mum and my And both bananas are right into quoting and making. So I've always had that, you know, a home I guess my dad's even quite creative being he's a farmer as well. Making things out of junk like building things and building machinery very clearly like that. And then when I was younger, my mum got me into calisthenics. So I've been in dance my whole life. I'm also a part of the conquering calisthenics club and running that club by myself as a coach. Yeah, so I've been into making costumes and sequencing and creating teens and yeah, smart my life I guess I love I love being a being hands in mind and in our guests during high school. I was in love with all the art subjects and design and things before before I go to maths and science like me, so yeah, it wasn't a great fan of school. But yeah. I can totally relate to that. Say you mentioned that your children help you gather and collect things for your work? Tell us about your children. I have three kids. I've got a son and two daughters. Yeah, what are they nearly nearly six nearly four and just turned one. Busy but a lot of my making and business planning I guess is done when they go to bed. So you spend all night doing your hypnosis because your daily times for your kids your day times for school drop offs in washing and housework. Yeah, it is. It is a big a big commitment to decide to open a business because you do have to give me your free time to to that. Yeah. That's it, isn't it? And especially having a little one too. I guess you're not. You're not guaranteed a full night's sleep either. So no, I am honestly very lucky. All the kids are great sleepers. They go to bed at seven and they they wake up at about seven the next day. So yeah, I am pretty strict on their routine. So I can by eight o'clock jump on in my office and get some stuff done. Yeah. Well, that's great. You mentioned about the farm. So do you do actually have a farm as well that you run? Yeah, my partner's a part of a family trust. So we're surrounded by family. There's Yeah. Every day there's something happening was sharing to be done. There's harvest and silage, there's Yeah, sheep work or whatever needs to have happen. They've also got a theory that they run as well. Yeah, so I am surrounded by a lot of business minded people. So it's been really great to bounce ideas. And they've actually shown quite a great interest in what I'm doing, which is exciting and encouraging. Yeah. Yeah. It's great to have that support, isn't it? And especially with having three children, you'd sort of you'd need to have a pretty good support network around you. Yeah. And my parents lived down in Congress, they're not far away, as well. So yeah, my mom has my kids a lot for me to do my calisthenics. So yeah, go away to competitions and things like that. She Yeah, she takes all that on talking about the concept of mum guilt, you know, this idea that yeah, just supposed to be doing mum stuff all the time, and we're not supposed to do anything for ourselves and Yeah, my eldest three kids from a previous marriage. So I went through a lot of dv relationship. And I left that relationship when my daughter was only, not even one years old. So I've had them longer for a long time. I don't remember much of my daughter's life, because I was going through a lot of things behind the scenes. But I feel that the calisthenics especially, was my escape from what was going on in my home, I could go to castings, and be creative and find my happiness, then come home, and it wasn't okay. So then I moved in with my parents and I could, I could let go, I could be who I wanted to be, and find my happiness again. And I still, I still have a lot of mom guilt. Because I chose to be creative over being there for my kids. But now things are a lot different in a lot happier relationship, happier home, I can juggle both I can be creative, and I can be I can be mum, and can be present. Like it's been very different. Having my youngest and going through bringing her up and, and a little the joys of breastfeeding and things we support around me. It's been a lot. lot different. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess creating the springs creative. He's also something I can do with the kids like exploring the farm, going going out into nature, and oh, look at these wondering what that's going to look like in a couple of weeks after we've hung it up and dried it, or what color could we try and make this grass because we've been experimenting with dyes and food coloring and things to try and suck up into the stems and create new colors and things like that. So that's been fun to do with kids? Oh, yeah. It's almost like a little like, like a science project or so. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it was, it was great to do through COVID as well, not their way here in South Australia had much COVID dramas, but it kept us saying that we could do a little bit of schoolwork in the morning and then get out in the garden. And we'll go for a walk around the paddock and see what we can find. Yeah, for sure. And it's like, I guess, I mean, the kids probably aren't on social media, the ages. But can they sort of delay See, they see the finished product? And they they sort of have an understanding that what they've Yeah, has made this beautiful product, I guess. Yeah, let my my daughter especially, I'll make up a bunch of flowers, and they've got to be delivered up to the hospital. Let's say this to a new baby. And she gets so excited that we're going to Yeah, make someone say brighter with something that we've made. Yeah, that's beauty. And that whole, that whole giving concept that it gives the learning that you can spoil someone without it being a toy or something materialistic it can be a bunch of flowers is enough for somebody as well. Yeah. Yeah, that's really lovely. Do you mind if we delve into this previous relationship a bit more? Is that appropriate? Obviously, if there's anything you don't want to talk about, I'm just interested this the connection that you you raised about the way that being creative was like your outlet. It was your escape. Yeah. Yeah. Can you talk a bit more about that? Is that? Yeah, well, at the time, I was teaching classes at the Congress home. And, like it was a commitment, good scribble gene for classes, two or three times a week. I had to go. I couldn't be having a worse day. But at four o'clock, I had to be there to open a hole up for these kids to come in for their classes. Like when I opened that whole door and walked in. It was I'm free, like, I can do what I want to do for the next year and a half. But when I shut that door and walk out, I have to go back to reality. So I guess it was it kept my, my my I know my gears going it kept kept me alive. You could be honest that. Yeah. And then when I guess when things got to that point where I decided that enough was enough, it still was my, my my little I was my therapy, I guess I could I was going through counseling, going through mediation and things. And yeah, I can be really stressed out. And it was my Yeah. A little a little escape from what was really going on in my life. Yeah. forever grateful for those those kids. I have no idea of what they helped me through. But yeah, they got me through some of the darkest days. Yeah, yeah. And that sense of community. I suppose having having people around you that valued you. And looked up to you. Yeah, yeah. With Yeah, definitely. I love being a part of small communities, because for that reason, your next door neighbor knows what's going on in your world. And they're there for you. Yeah. Well, yeah. My parents were my brother, my sister in law. And then, after 12 months of living with my parents, I moved into a home with my kids, just me and the two kids. And we're only a few doors down for my parents and my brother like it was a little safety net. And yeah, we got we got through it. Yeah. I met my current partner and moved down to Cancun for the first time in my life. When he moved 10 minutes up the road into Boingo. Yeah. Well done. Good for you. Yeah, that's a great, it's a great outcome. You know, you hear a lot of a lot of things not going going the other way when it comes to domestic violence. And I always consider myself one of those lucky ones. Yeah, I felt I felt like I had people behind me to push me through through that mountain because a lot of girls get to that point and they turn around if you go back to like it. I totally understand why girls go back. And it's not only girls it's guys too. But when I took those steps it was crazy how many doors were open for me with counseling. Support hearing about Gambia there's a lot a lot of things I didn't even realize to exist for people ya know, I met some amazing humans who encouraged me to keep going to keep climbing Yeah, I got there in the past I guess yeah, let's go yeah you born and bred in Congo wrong. Usually I've lived here my whole life and even the ceramics which is a beautiful area. It's only what would it be from the man it's like 15 minutes would it be yeah if that Yeah. So we're right on the highway so pretty much where the Grand Council turns to what arrange Council? Yeah. And there's the old springs hole that's still there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Often drive past that and think Oh, wonder how many lovely you know, dances and parties and stuff. They have their history around this. Phenomenal No luck there. The beautiful old homes at the old Baringo homestead there on the hill. Yeah. Love beautiful properties, like the hills and green grass and the scrub lands and stuff like that. And then like then all you can see is the bluff as well. Yeah, some fucking mornings. It's really quite eerie. When you look at over. Yeah. It's a beautiful park. That's the thing. I guess. Most people would just drive straight through there. They're on their way to somewhere else. And they just, you know. Yeah. I always did like living here in Congo. He drafted like, oh, every now and then to go to football or netball. You never paid any notice to him? Yeah, yeah, that's it, isn't it? We used to spend a lot of Sunday drives driving around with mom and dad that was just sitting on a Sunday. Go for a cook For, ya know that that tracks between here and anywhere, my dad knew them. So we spent a lot of time driving around, which I probably took for granted as a as a teenage girl or even a bit younger like I was, this is so boring. And it's my going home. And now I love it. Driving around, we decided to go in a different way home every now and then. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. And like, yeah, you kids, you kids who grow up with that different sort of view on the world, too. I suppose that there's all these hidden hidden places that people don't know about and all this cool stuff. It's a great lifestyle raising kids in, in the country and on a farm that they they see and learns things so differently. My son knows about the birds and bees now like he's just worked out for himself. Like when I was pregnant with my youngest, Haney how it all happened. So the Rams in the shape have it. That's one less conversation you've got to have as anyone have to even think about it. I guess to then the concept of death to life and death. It's not a dog. Because they see it, you know, often, I guess, yeah, like that we eat our own meat off the farm like lamb and pork. You know, kids know where it comes from. They know. They know what goes into what they have to they may the hard work that goes into raising the lambs to be that to that point, and when they go on the back to the abbatoirs. Or if the when the pigs go to the piggery from the piggery to abiqua. And they know what's happening where they're going. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's a great thing to teach children. I think too, because there's no denial then. You're not hiding things and no wedding milk comes in this year. Oh, I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a that's a good one. I think. Not recently, even a couple of weeks ago, I think my pop said to me Oh, I saw this article the city kids they don't even know where milk comes from. And it's kind of like a joke but I think it's true. You know, like there's so many kids that are detached from from that they don't understand they probably think it just goes it's in a factory in squirts out of some big machine you know, it's not Yeah, connection. Yeah, yeah. But then we don't know what goes on in city life like what it's like to ram or bus or gosh, like, yeah, yeah, what it's like to drive around you around in a car park at the shopping center trying to get apart. We don't have to deal with that. Yeah, that's a great way of looking at it. I've never thought of it that way that's really good. perspective or even when it's like to walk to school we drive to school or drive the bus stop or not that we're hugely remote but we are in a way Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's it isn't it? All these little differences and we just I guess we take for granted what we know and don't think about what we don't know the concept of identity is something that I love to chat to moms about on the podcast. Yeah. How do you feel about that? Like is it important to you to sort of put in air quotes to be more than just a mum to have your own your own identity and your sense of self? I guess I guess I know Facebook keeps reminded me of my what my life used to be before kids Saturday nights it shadows or I don't know even just little adventures I used to do back in the day is a total lifetime ago for me. Yeah, and I guess when you do become a mum you have to let go of that life yeah. You your your life comes second to your kids slow development and their their health and well being is above above yours. Yeah. But you do have to keep it leveled enough that you are your best self where you're at can't be can't be distant you can't be unwell. You've got to be that for that therefore them which I guess I've learned from the past that are needed to put my kids first to get out of that for them. Yeah. Yah, yah, yah. Yah, I love being on I probably love I love being a stay at home mom, I'm very lucky that I can have that role. But yeah, you don't can't get a break. I don't get to go to work and have seven hours without my kids. I've got to be with them. 24/7 so that so that time when they're in bed and you're doing, you're doing your thing that is that is really precious. Isn't it that time that you get? Yeah. And that that they use my time? Yeah, that's my, my. My therapy. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess you you've got to look at look at it like that, that you can use the time that you aren't with your kids to be productive, but also using it to have your time out of work. You've got to go to trade like that, like your time and Once Upon a Time was going out for dinner with friends are going out getting your hair done, but you're going to look at it differently that that's a trait it's not your everyday. Yeah, yeah, that's it. And even even having an opportunity to go to Woolies and get some groceries without the kids such Some. Some new time. Yeah. Yeah. You're still doing your mum work. It's it's your chance to Yeah, timeout or that moment before school pick up and you see the car on your phone. But your your time? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it think things take on this new perspective? And? But yeah, you're right. Like it's in finding those little moments, and then being aware of how they're fitting in for you. And not just sort of not just sort of going through the day, like mindlessly I guess. Yeah, yeah. Really pinpointing those moments saying, right, this is my time and you know, owning it and making the most, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it could be a morning the kids sleeping that little extra 20 minutes, and you get to watch sunrise on TV and have your coffee hot? Like it's yeah, those things. Yeah. Yeah. That's your time. A little things before before the answer. It's working, really getting down to the road. It's a little five minutes of freedom. I think that that sort of shifting perspective, it's, it's challenging, but I think that looking at it that way will help a lot of people too. I think just just shifting, shifting the way because yeah, life life is not going to all of a sudden say, Hey, I'm gonna look after your kids for two weeks while you go on a holiday. You know, it's an if you've got to, you've got to sort of find those little moments in the in the mundane every day, day to day activities. Yeah, and you also got to find that. I guess in your relationship to that mum and dad can have their time out when they want to, it's okay. If dad wants to go fishing or whatever mums allowed to go, go for a walk or go do what she likes to do. Yeah. Yeah. It's not just all about mum. Both and the kids, the kids also need to see that. We both we both can go do what we're gonna do. We don't have to be at the same time, I guess. Like, yeah. Yeah, like, we both can go do our own things. As parents, we don't have to rely on each other. I guess. Like, yeah, you can have something for yourself. Do something by yourself. It doesn't have to always be with someone. Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, like our relationship is like dunking, going go fishing, or go catch up with his mates or his brothers in so so it's okay. Like, it's not. We have to do everything all together all the time. Yeah. And if I go down to the sick, catch up with my friends, or go to dancing or whatever, that's, that's okay. It's yeah. Yeah, it's great for the kids to be able to say that it's not to stand like the strength in relationships. You know, you don't have you have to be with each other all the time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I guess I guess the lock the lifestyle around. Things don't stuff on the farm. You can't have Saturday and Sunday off. Things still need to be done. The weather's right after the sun been near like this weekend. We weren't planning on doing anything as such, but we ended up sharing 15 games, but yeah, the kids and I had planned to go to narracott yesterday, so we still went and yeah, we still got to do what we plan to do. Yeah. But yeah, things on the farm still have to be done. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. And I guess that teachers, sort of models, I guess, like that adaptability and that resilience. I suppose that if whatever is thrown at you, you've you've just got to deal with it at that time. And yeah, yeah. And it teaches the kids too, that plans change, as well, that it's okay. It's not something you fit. Yeah, it can be disappointing, but you keep up and walk on. And it goes on. Yeah. Because change is a big a big thing for anyone, for adults, but for children, especially when plans change. So I think that's, that's a really valuable thing for for kids to grow up with that idea that it is okay for things to change. And, and it's not a thing to be scared of, because I think a lot of people are asking. Yes, yes. Yeah. I've never thought of this stuff before. It's really cool. It's like your children are getting this their own special brand of, of life education, I suppose. Will these these little thick tools? Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And I guess I was, I was brought up the same like I was brought up that you talked about what you want to talk about, get it sorted out, there's no worrying, there's no need to go round and round in circles so that you can you can find a solution to a problem. Yeah, work it out and move on. Or? Yeah, yeah. And talk it out rather than, you know, dwell on it, hide it and internalize it and go around around around forever. Sometimes I still overthink everything. It's what we do as humans. A blurry that things are the same things. And then ends and you move on you just Yeah. Yeah, I'm blown away with our area, like, how supportive other small businesses are of small business startups. Yeah, it's fantastic. That you can reach out to other little businesses and they'll give you a heads up on things or CVS, things like I had, had a couple of girls. Say, Go for it, go to the library, market, get yourself and your branding out there and see what happens. But just Instagram alone has been amazing for me. The followers and the shares. Yeah, the inquiries for weddings has been amazing and exciting. It's exciting to share that happiness with those people. Because a lot of them have had their weddings canceled because of COVID. And to be a part of that excitement for them, and then they're still worrying that things will get canceled. But yeah, yeah, that's, I'm really looking forward to got my way our first wedding coming up on the 20th of November. So yeah, I'm super excited to. Yeah, bring all those ideas out and show what we what we can do. Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. And then to see where things go, like if we can get more into the wholesale of dry flowers. The boys this year have a lot of wheat crops in two of my partner's brothers own a business in Millicent called squeak group, which is a stock feed plant so they make a lot of canola meal and canola oil and other products as well, which has been super exciting watching them growing their business. Like it's a multi million dollar thesis, but my little flowers is flooding along but it's so good having family that around, like who are very business minded and say you should be doing this you should be doing that. Have you thought about this or? Yeah. How much did you make on it this week? What was your profit like? You should be looking at this. You shouldn't be doing that. Like I'm just a little, little, little check making some flowers. It's no big deal. No. It is great having having people like that to bounce off decisions, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's thing even though you you're the scale might be a little different, but they might, you know, have a suggestion of something and you go, Oh, I didn't realize that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, one night, every now and then they have a fire and catch up at our place. And I was saying how much dried wheat is on the wholesale market. And they all is what you can make a driveway in their crops and firewood with scissors, cutting down wheat. So I'll make a profit off their crop, so it shouldn't be fun. And even like, fracking, we've got all our scrub weeds that we spray for weeds. Yes. Huge, popular over in America like looking at the summer. And bouquets they've got those in there bouquets. Like that's something I've got my back door. Yeah, easily. Yeah. So it's cool watching trends from overseas that come into Australia and yeah, trying to get my head around things and what all the whatever on locks and yeah, that's, that's awesome. Again, that perspective shifts like something that that we spray we get rid of, because it takes you know, takes up room in the grazing and it's just a pest. People People love and they want in their bouquets. It's like the Pampas grass and things like that. Like it's, it's classed as a weed. Yeah. And I've been looking at, had a lot of people inquire for me to post them bouquets or post them arrangements, so looking by security in different states, and each state has a different role. It's amazing how Australia can be one country but have all these different laws in different states. Yeah, okay. Hey, Sydney. I've really liked to get into his posting them, but it's going to be very complicated to do it. Yeah. Oh, it sounds like you've got some fun coming up in the future. Yeah, hopefully, building and growing. Yeah, hopefully. I feel like I've finally found my little niche and my little, little thing and laughter run when I left high school in 2008 with no clue at all what I wanted to do following year 12. So it is nice. It's nice to finally find my my life but yeah. life a life that I can still be mom and still be there. For school pickups and drop offs or volunteering at the canteen or whatever. I can still do both. Yeah, I need to see where things go. That's for sure. Yeah, well, absolutely. I'll be I'll be watching. I'm sure a lot of people will be after this. Because yeah, it's a great story. And I'm really, yeah, and your products are beautiful. You know. I just thank you for having me. Yeah. I love listening to your thought your podcasts and very interesting guests you've had on so yeah, and it seems foreign to someone like me. I'm just a little little piece of the pie out here so young. It's nice to Yeah, listen to other people's journeys and find inspiration from what they've done. Yeah, it's good. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman dotnet. Age to Ellis Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Eliza Hull Australian musician, author and disability advocate S3 Ep84 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts It is my great pleasure to welcome Eliza Hull to the podcast. Eliza is a musician, writer, speaker and disability advocate, and a mum of 2 from regional Victoria, Australia. Eliza is an award winning musician. Her music has been described as ‘stirring, captivating and heartfelt’ She is regularly played on radio nationally and internationally including on ABC, RN, BBC, double j and triple j. She recently performed her new song Running Underwater on ABC’S Q & A and performed at SXSW in Austin, Texas + Big Sound Festival. Her songs are also featured in ABC KIDS TV show ‘And Then Something Changed,’ ABC ‘The Heights’ and American TV shows ‘Awkward, ‘Teen Wolf’ and ‘Saving Hope.’ Recently Eliza was awarded the Music Victoria ‘Amplify’ Award, the APRA mentorship for women in music, the National Leadership Award from the Australia Council + Arts Access Australia + The Women In Music Award. Eliza’s debut EP, Dawn, came out in 2012, and showcased her eclectic approach to sound. Later in the year, Eliza recorded her 2nd ep, The Ghosts You Never Catch, which is full of the intensity, emotion, ad story telling which characterises her music. Eliza has her fifth studio record coming out soon, which will feature ‘Here they come’ and ‘Running Underwater.’ Eliza is making change in the music industry. The time is now for greater representation of disabled musicians, and Eliza is a huge part of this movement. As an author Eliza has been involved in 3 books, Come Over To My House is a picture book that explores the home lives of children + parents who are Deaf or disabled. Eliza is the editor and creator of ‘ We’ve Got This – Stories by Disabled Parents’ is the stories of 25 disabled parents from around Australia. The book was developed after a very successful podcast series on ABC's Radio National Eliza is a contributor to Growing Up Disabled in Australia. - One in 5 Australians has a disability, and disability presents itself in many ways. Yet disabled people are still underrepresented in the media + in literature. In the book compiled by writer + appearance activist Carly Findlay OAM, more than 40 writers with a disability or chronic illness share their stories, in their own words. Eliza is a panellist and speaker and has spoken at the Human Rights Convention ‘Free and Equal,’ for the NDIS and the Changes Music Conference. Eliza was a panellist on ABC’s Q&A. Eliza is also an access consultant for live music venues and organisations. Eliza - Website Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Eliza. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mom guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a mom would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Welcome to another episode. It really is so great to have you. Thank you for joining me. It's my great pleasure to welcome Eliza Hall to the podcast this week. Eliza is a musician, a writer, a speaker and a disability advocate and a mum of two from regional Victoria in Australia. Eliza is an award winning musician her music has been described as staring captivating and heartfelt. She's regularly played on radio around Australia and internationally, including on the ABC Radio National the BBC Double J and Triple J. She recently performed her new song running underwater on a BCS q&a TV show and performed at SX SW in Austin, Texas and big sound festival to showcase and present a panel on accessibility. Eliza songs are also featured in ABC Kids TV show, and then something changed ABCs The heights and American TV shows awkward Teen Wolf and saving hope. Recently Eliza was awarded the music Australia amplify award the AHPRA mentorship from women in music, the National Leadership Award from the Australia Council and Art Access Australia and the Women in Music Award. Eliza his debut EP dawn came out in 2012 and showcased her eclectic approach to sound. Later in that same year. Eliza recorded her second EP The ghosts you never catch which is full of the intensity, emotion and storytelling which characterizes Eliza his music. Eliza has a fifth studio record coming out very soon, which will feature here they come and running underwater. Eliza is making change in the music industry. The time is now for greater representation of disabled musicians and Eliza is a huge part of this movement. As an author Eliza has been involved in three books. Come over to my house with Australian author Sally Wilson is a picture book that explores the home lives of children and parents who are deaf or disabled. She's the editor and creator of we've got this stories by Disabled Parents. It features 25 stories from Disabled Parents from around Australia. And the book was developed after a very successful podcast series on ABCs Radio National. One in five Australians has a disability and disability presents itself in many ways. Yet disabled people are still underrepresented in the media and in literature. Eliza was a contributor to growing up disabled in Australia. The book compiled by writer and appearance activist Carly Findlay oh am and in the book more than 40 writers with a disability or chronic illness share their stories in their own words. Eliza is also a panelist and speaker and a spoken at the Human Rights Convention free and equal for the NDIS Brunswick Music Festival, the wheeler Center and the changes Music Conference. Eliza was a panelist on ABCs q&a TV show, and she's also an access consultant for live music venues and organizations. I sincerely hope you'll be inspired by Eliza to make positive changes in your own workspace, community or perhaps even your own mindset. The music you'll hear today is Eliza is owned. And you can find more by going to her website Eliza whole.com Or I've placed a link in the show notes. I really hope you enjoyed today's episode and thank you again for tuning in. Oh EB legs will now move. It's just the way it's gonna be. Maybe I don't feed Why don't you want me to be all these cookie cutter version? not doing me any welcome alive. It is such a pleasure to meet you and to have you on the podcast. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me. I gotta admit, I've been a fan of your music for quite a while you've got incredible voice it reminds me like of a bit like Janis Joplin with that sort of growly kind of thing you got going on. Thank you so much. He actually has a big influence in what I'm actually so nice to hear. So, we're about to you in Victoria. So I live in regional Victoria in Castlemaine. Yeah, right. Yep. How many is in Castlemaine? Is that like a big one? No, no, I don't know the exact figures. And I know that they're constantly changing. We're getting a lot of people coming to Castlemaine from Melbourne, especially during COVID, which we still are in but, you know, a little bit posted, I guess. And we're still getting that real influx of people, especially from the northern suburbs of Melbourne, moving to Castlemaine. It's about an hour and 20 minutes down the freeway and you can get an express train for an hour to Melbourne as well. So it's quite close to Melbourne, but also has the real qualities that a regional town has. So it's really beautiful. Yeah, that's nice. I just came back from a week in Ballarat. Which I don't think you're further north. I think that's right. Yes, awesome signs actually. And we have this like in South Australia, we say Castle, we don't say castle, but my mum's Victorian. So she often just reminded me straightaway when I saw this a lot. That's quite funny. So as I said, You're a singer, but you're also an author, and you're a disability advocate having disability yourself, and you do speaking. So what sort of came first for you to was it the writing or the music that that you sort of got into first. So the music came first. It was kind of the deal with my parents. So I wouldn't be able to leave the home my hometown of Albury Wodonga unless I had a uni degree to go to. And so I enrolled into a Bachelor of Communication in journalism, which I'm really glad I did. Because in the end, I've really used those skills anyhow. But I kept just deferring the course and just joining various bands and playing lots of shows, because that was really what was calling me was singing and music. I really wanted to just be a singer. And so yeah, really from the age of 18. That's what I've done. And I've done lots of various projects as a singer and performer. But now, I've gotten into more of the writing space. So I started by putting out a parenting anthology called we've got this, which is about Disabled Parenting. And I shared my own story and interviewed various other parents. And they also wrote their own stories. And then I've just completed an international version of that so with British and American and Canadian writers and interviewed those people over there, which will come out in February of this year. And then yeah, I've worked worked on a children's book, as well with Sally Ripon, who is a good friend of mine, and also lives in Castlemaine. And it was just my idea to create a book that represented various families with disability in a way that was authentic and fun and lively. And she was really on board with the idea and it was very collaborative working with Sally. I think people often question how can you co write a book with somebody but it really is a co write with Sally, because we sit around a table, we share our ideas, we go back and forth. You know, she writes a bit then I write a bit then we go, you know, so it was very collaborative and such an enjoyable process that we're working on our second book now. Oh, great. I actually had Sally on my podcast last year, and she was talking about your book, come over to my house and I thought it was great because I work in Early childhood education, and there's not very many books, I wouldn't say there's hardly any if there, if any, that use the language and make people aware of, of all the different ways families can exist and homes can exist, and to also make, to make parents aware of Yeah, of that language so that then they can educate their children, and they can be educated themselves on appropriate ways to talk about different families, which I thought was fantastic. And it's good, you know, for educators to to have the right tools to be able to communicate with children. So just find the kids kid to know everything, and they're so clever. And then then adults get their get their views into the kids heads, and they all change and it's terrible. It's so true. Can you tell us what the next book is about? Or is it a bit of a sacred at this stage? It's about the social model of disability really. So the social the social model is that the world is disabling. So that really was like a real aha moment for me when I learned the social model. So it made me think about what how is the world disabling. For instance, when I arrive at a building, and because I have a physical disability, it means if there's stairs up into that building, that's a building I can't get into. Whereas if there was a ramp up into a building, I would feel less disabled by my environment. And that really was like, Oh, wow, like, it's not up to me to change and that I don't need to be fixed. And you know, I don't have a problem and a deficit, it's actually what if we change the world to be more accessible, change the world to be more inclusive. And, you know, that can be lots of different reasons, reasons, ways. For instance, having an Auslan interpreter for people that are deaf, or having image descriptions for people that are blind, that's all the way that we can change the world to be more inclusive. So the children's book is really in a way a explainer of how we can change the world. And it's has two characters, a disabled child and a non disabled child. And it happens due to the disabled child inviting, so rather than non disabled child inviting the disabled child over for a play, and realizing that their house isn't accessible, and so feeling really bad about that, and not talking to the child for lunchtime, because they feel so embarrassed and bad about it. And then they then go to the playground, they decide that that's the best way to meet after school and the playgrounds inaccessible as well for this wheelchair, wheelchair user. And so that's when they decide that they're going to build an accessible world together. And they do that in a really beautiful way. And I guess, yeah, just to show how we can just change the world and we don't need to change the person. Hmm, that's a that's a really powerful message. That social model of disability that I had, I'd never heard it described that way. And when I've, I think it was Carly Finley that I first heard it said three and I just thought, ah, like, it's obvious, it makes so much sense. But why is our world reluctant to do this? Like, why do we have to only cater for particular people? How about okay, you know, that's fantastic. You're doing that. Because like I said, like the kids that are amazing, and get the kids keep to keep doing what they want to do, the world will change and Exactly, exactly, be fantastic. Yeah. And I think you know, the kids are the future so that I feel like it's so important that that's where we start really with changing the way the world sees disability. That brings me to a song that you performed on q&a. I'm not sure when that was actually when was that? A good question. So it's like, what year is it? It was the end of 2021. Yeah, right. And I actually watched that again this morning, because I remember when I first saw it for the first time, and it was just had me in tears, and had me in tears again this morning. But that's, that's literally, that's the description of how it feels to try and fit into a world that doesn't include you. And that sounds a horrible thing to say, but it's true, isn't it? Yeah, I feel like that that analogy of running underwater was just a way to say how heavy it can feel at times when you feel really good. A friend. But not only different when you feel like you don't belong really, and you don't feel included in a world and you feel discriminated against. And yeah, that's when it becomes really hard. I think that when I did the parenting book, we've got this it really showed that the greatest obstacles parents with disability face, it's not what happens inside the home. It's actually what happens outside the home where you face medical discrimination or people staring or inaccessible, inaccessible spaces. And yeah, so I think that it's really up to society to start in a recognizing that we are 20% of the population and that we deserve to include and be included in the world. Absolutely, yes. from you I remember when I was five, they told me the podcasts that you did, we've got this did that come after the book was that before? So it was always an idea, my idea that it should be a book, first and foremost, that was because really, it was just that I wanted a book like this to exist when I was deciding to become a parent. And I couldn't find anything out there, there was absolutely nothing. And so luckily, at that time, I saw that the ABC was offering scholarships for regional people with disability. And so I applied with the idea to make a series on parenting with disability and got chosen, which was great. And that then became, we've got this after the audio series went so well. I then pitched the idea as a book, but it was always my idea that it would be a book. So that was great. That happened. That's wonderful. Now Good on you. So you mentioned about being a parent, How many children do you have? So I've got two children. One is seven, and one is to Oh, awesome. In the midst of full on parenting, young children, yeah. Oh, that's awesome. I love that that age gap. I've got seven years between my two. Fun fun times, I've got seven and almost 15. And it's just you just feel like, I don't know, you read two worlds at once. You feel like that time is absolutely on learner and a seven year old Yeah. Have you found then that the children have fit into your career, I guess doing your music and doing your writing? Did that sort of take a break at all when you had two kids? Or was that something that you used to sort of keep going, I suppose and keep your identity while you became a mom? Yeah, I haven't. I haven't really stopped to think the first pregnancy and birth. So that was my daughter, Isabel. I think I took a bit more time off, I gave myself that break, after giving birth, I might have had nine or 10 months. I mean, there's not even that much. I've just doing absolutely nothing. But then started to make more music and released my album at that time. So that was already recorded. So record the last song when I found out I was pregnant. So I kind of felt like I needed to get that out anyway. And then with Archie who's you know, two and a half now. I took maybe six months off, and then just kept going. And I guess the way it's fitted in my life is that because I don't really worked for a person. I'm kind of freelancing with my music and my speaking engagements. And my writing. It just kind of fits around them. And that's really worked really well. So for instance, when he naps for the two hours in the day, I just get a lot done. And I think having that constraint of time has actually been really beneficial for me because it's like, Okay, two hours go. And then I took 10 I also work the other two hours of the night in the night. But yeah, sometimes it can be challenging, and we haven't used any childcare up until this point, but that's because I've got such an incredible mother in law. So at any time, I'll be able to say can you come stay we've got a really great luckily When we bought our house is a guest house at the back of the house. So she, she gets to be in her own space and come and stay. And she'll do that anytime I go away. Yeah, that's awesome having that support massive, isn't it? I wouldn't be able to do what I do without her. Yeah, yeah, I can definitely relate to that. I mean, my family here. I was thinking about that the other day, like, the times when you've got gigs on at night and or at rehearsals or anything, like, just how would you do it? If you didn't have help? Like, you just couldn't? Exactly just take for granted sometimes I think that I don't know, it's pretty important. Something I like to talk to all my guests about is this concept of mum guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because I think it's a I don't like the word, because I hate the word guilt. But have you got any thoughts about that? Well, yeah, man, it's a huge thing. For me. I think for me, it was, it's one of my way I feel it the most. So I really don't like the feeling when I'm at an airport or in a different city. And I see a mother with a child. It just like, Yeah, I'm just like, why am I not that mother? Why am I here? Why am I doing this? Like it? Just yeah, it feeds into that guilt can be really a horrible feeling. And then you kind of realize that, who knows what that mother's feeling in that moment? And maybe, No, tomorrow, she'll be going on a trip or, you know, I guess it just for some reason, you always think that you are doing the wrong thing. And I guess what I've realized is when I'm at home, I'm sometimes feeling like, Oh, I really want to do some work. And then when I'm working, I really want to be at home. I think that ultimately, being a mother makes you really feel very divided. Yeah, so it's just a constant. And I went to America in March last year, that was a big thing to go for. I went for 11 days without the kids and yeah, that was really very tricky. And only because it was such an incredible opportunity and that I had got the funding to go did I go? But they were actually fine. It was me that struggled the most. Always away. Yeah, so I'm off to the UK in May this year for a tour for the month of May and I've decided we're all going to they're gonna go as a family this time. Just make a trip of it and really enjoy it. No good on Yeah, yeah. I that it's very common thing. People talk about this. This when you when you're doing your work, or doing your art or creativity, you feel bad, because you're not with the kids. But then when you're with the kids, you think Oh geez, I really want to be guided to do that. Constantly constant battle in your head isn't absolutely yeah, thanks even half and then I say is it there's no answer to it. You just got to say different air we deal with it say call me a silver timer. Wrong. pill has becoming a meme changed? Or has it changed the way that you write your music? Approaching music? Yeah, I think that is kind of what I was saying before. The fact that when you have time constraints, you generally you cannot you can either go two ways for somebody, it could be that, that in the end is like you know, you can't be creative because you feel like you're under the pressure. But for me, it's worked really as an advantage. Because it's given me that kind of like, okay, you can't just sit here and the piano for a day anymore. And you know, maybe think of a verse, you really got to like, get it out. And so I think that that's what's helped me the most. I've also just wanted to do it really right this time. So for this next record that I'm about to put out, which has running running underwater on it, that I did on q&a, I just made sure that it was really well executed and like I looked into every lyric I can just I guess it was a bit more want to do if I'm going to be away from my kids, I'm going to leave the house and spend all that time and spend all that financial money into into my music, that I really should be putting everything into it and doing it really? Right. So I guess that's what has led to that. Whereas, perhaps before children, I just would have been like, that's fine. Like, you know, let's just experiment. Whereas now, it's very, yeah, I don't know, I guess what the word is just. It's, it's has to be a bit more professional, probably. Ultimately. I was thinking the other day, when I make my music, I always think it might be the last guy that I get to do something. Because now that I have two children, and I'm getting older, you know, so I feel like that, that I take, I have that sort of mentality, because I feel like I might not get another 10 If you know what I mean, it's good to do this, because I've always wanted to do this. I've always wanted to put this into songs I've got to do at this time, because I'll never do which sort of makes you feel old. Me I'm saying? No, I really relate to that. Absolutely. Waking up with a natural, dry yo. Promise one day do you find that you need your music and your creativity to keep you going as mum to have that outlet? is really important for you? Yeah, yeah, I think it. I mean, I feel like mothering is creative, though, as well. I think being you know, doing craft activities, or even just the way that they look at the world is really creative. And then we spent almost half the day looking at the clouds making images from the clouds the other day, and I was like, wow, we really are, they really can't be present vervain in the moment. And so I find mother mothering creative just like I find cooking creative. But I think you know, that outlet of singing for me is just something that I just always wanted to do and have always really done since I was little. And it's just an outlet. It's like a you know, if you're like, feeling like emotional or if you're feeling heightened, or you just it just expressing that enables me to feel like I'm getting it out. So what inspires you when you write your lyrics and write your songs, your obviously your, your, your disability and your place in the world do you do kids come through as well in your writing? Not Yeah, no, not really. And actually, that's a lie. The record that I released last, how we disappeared was really about moving away from Melbourne away from the city and there was one song on there that's called Valentine. And that was because my daughter was born on Valentine's Day. It actually kind of seems like a bit of a love song that you could think it was about a relationship but yeah, it's about her. So yeah, I haven't read a song about my son yet but maybe one day this particular record that's about to come out Yeah, it doesn't touch on the kids at all it's about Yeah, like unraveling my you know my true self being authentic identity my disability Yeah, just kind of things from the past as well. How old were you when you started writing? I got given a piano luckily, well, unlucky unlucky and that somebody passed away, but lucky and that they left it for me. When they did in there. They wanted somebody that was wanting to be a musician to take it. And that was I think when I was about 14, and so when the day that arrived, I sat on it and wrote my first song. It just kind of poured out of me. Yeah, and I look back at that time because I'm like, wow, the chords for that song not really quite advanced, to be honest. Maybe not so much theoretically. But it was just like, you know, angsty song that I wrote About heartbreak. Hmm, we've very close to the sinuses getting person you can you can tell me if this is appropriate, the person that passed away to have the PR, did you have a connection with them at all? No, not at all. So that's why I didn't I might have felt a bit disconnected by that. But um, it was actually just my father owned a business screen printing business and his graphic designer. That was his mother. Okay, so it was really just like a Yeah, connection to the family. And is he's a piano because your daughter is a musician. Oh, that's nice. That got got passed down. And yeah, it's still my piano. Yes. I've still got it. In the studio outside. And yeah, it's great. I still play. Well, that's nice. Do your kids play music at all really? Interested in it? Yeah. So my daughter's learning piano and we just got her a keyboard for Christmas this year. And yeah, she's absolutely loves it. So that wasn't something I pushed. Or it was like, you know, she does karate she does piano she does. So because it was like, these are this is on offer. What would you like to do? And we always check in and say, so want to go there? Because we can stop that. But not absolutely loves them. But I don't want to be one of I guess I didn't want to be the one that pushes her to do to be to do what I do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can relate to that. I tried for many years to get my son to I put didn't push him. I just say, Oh, do you want me to show you something on the piano? Or do you want me to teach your song or any my husband plays? Guitar? Do you wanna play dad's guitar? No. And then he picked up the recorder, which turned into the bagpipes. Oh, wow, there you go. And I have a feeling that he might deliberately pick something that neither myself or my husband knew anything about. So we couldn't do it. It's not like, I think as a as a you know, a musical parent you like you want your kid to experience it. Because you know how great it is, you know, you know how much you love it and how much it gives you. And you know, it's not about being good at something. I think you just want them to experience how amazing it can be. Yeah, so I was very pleased when he decided to play something. Even though it's actually, in monastery, it's one of those instruments, you just when he plays it, sometimes you will take it out in public, and people just love it. Like they just people love hearing it. You know, when it's played? Well, it's listening to the art of being a mom, with my mum, Alison Newman. So with your, with your music and your writing, do you sort of want your kids to see what you're doing? As a Liza, sort of, in addition to what they see as mum, like, is that important to you? That they they see that you? You do things other than mother? Yeah, I think so. I think that. Yeah, I think it kind of comes as a surprise in a way when they finally realize that you are an individual. I think that my son is two and a half he has no idea that I've had any individual hope for him at the moment. But yeah, it's about my daughter. I feel like she's starting to really get it. And it's yeah, it's really beautiful to for her just to witness my you know, songwriting process and the shows to come to the shows and see what I do and yeah, and in regards to your advocacy, is that important that the kids see that that you're really trying to create a world for everybody, but it's inclusive space. Yeah, I'd almost say that's more important actually. Yeah, I think that disability is is really ingrained in this home the word what it means how we treat people. So I feel really hopeful that both my kids Archie and Isabel will be just really inclusive children and I've already shown me that Yeah, I think they just like they care really ultimately about me and yeah, they just see disability as something that would have to be celebrated and not feared and yeah, I can really see that already playing. Now that's awesome. So won't do that. And I wanted to ask you do because I learned this with Sally, I must admit, I'm very naive when it comes to the world of inclusivity. And how to how to engage with people on how they like to be referred to do you like to say you have a disability or you're a person with a disability? Yeah, I mean, any, any of those. Generally say I'm a disabled person or person with disability, disabled. So that's like identity first language. So, basically, you know, for a long time, so for instance, 80s, there was a lot of words that we use instead of disability, for instance. differently, you know, I guess even just differently abled, or handicapped. There are a lot of worse terminology and some disability slurs that were used. And so people within the disability advocacy space, were fighting for people first language to remind people that disabled people were people, because we were being called so many other things. But now we're moving into a space where we don't feel we need to remind people that we're people, you don't need to say, people with disabilities just to say disabled person is that, you know, I'm proud of my disability, I'm proud of the identity. And I don't have to remind you that I'm a person. And if by, you know, saying that I'm disabled, you can see the barriers that we need to change as well. So yeah, I feel like that's, you know, it took a little while for me to say disabled person, because I just realized that I was actually holding on to a lot of ableism, around disability, I was thinking that disability was a bad word or a negative word, or that it meant that you were less than that it was something that I had really had to work through and realize that that was just because that's what I'd been shown time again, in media, or I've been taught at school, and just by people's attitudes, so it's always you know, what's wrong with you? Instead of, you know, like, can you tell me about your disability, it's always like, that kind of perceived as, as a negative, people will often say how sorry they are and how bad they feel that I, you know, I'm disabled, whereas I just feel like that actually, in the end makes me just feel worse about myself. Like, I think it's more like, I feel terrible that you live in an inclusive sorry, rather, that you live in an inaccessible world. Like I think that that's what our we need to phrase it. Like, when we really look at the world, I mean, diversity in all its forms is really what makes the world I think, a great place to live in. We wouldn't want everyone to be the same. Yeah, it's interesting that and, and this is so true in so many sectors like schooling and military, anything that I can think of right now, but everywhere in, in sort of white male culture is things have got to be the same because that's easy and you can control it, I suppose. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's very yeah my into deep, biggest Abadi projections, I'm all about sponsors, reactions and feelings this. So when you're growing up, like you said, your dad had the screen printing business, were you sort of inspired by that, to think that you could, if you want to sing, you could see, you know, people can have their own plumbing business, but you know, you don't have to work someone else or anything like that. Like was that? Um, yeah, I think maybe like seeing that. I also my mom was a drama teacher at school. So I think, you know, having her be so creative, and I was actually her student at it in year 11. So I think you're being in her classroom and seeing the way that she made art and drama, really fun and enjoyable, and you can get paid to do that. Yeah, so I think I got those kinds of skills from her. But I think they ultimately, they were being realistic as well in the way that they sort of singing for me. They saw it as something that really we're proud of It may and but but ultimately maybe something that would have to be a hobby, and I think I'll probably surprise them that as to how much I've just a kept the determination and the need going but also just how well it's done in many ways. Yeah, good on you. Because that is something that a lot of people I have on the show, they set out, like as you know, teenager, high school, they're going to make art their career. And then their parents might say, oh, you know, you know, might not pay the bills, you know, get a real job, that sort of mentality. And then in their sort of midlife of maybe after they've had kids, they go back to that creativity. And it's like, I don't care so much, you know, I mean, obviously, money is important. But, you know, enjoying yourself in your life is pretty important as well, exactly, I think, you know, you realize that as time goes on, like, how, you know, let's just be happy, instead of feeling like we have to do certain things. And I think I went to a, it was actually by a publisher, and they were looking ahead at the future generations. And I think more and more from what they're predicting, we will see young people choosing what they love instead of what they think they need to do. And it'll be workplaces that are based on what your talents are, instead of, again, what you think you need to do, or you think you should do. I love that. It gives you hope for the future, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. People. Yeah, because that's all I know, my son, yours a little bit younger, but my son's at the point where he's got to start choosing subjects for year 11 and 12, for what he wants to do when he leaves school. And I was like, might just pick stuff that you enjoy, like, know what they want to do like it until I was 40. Something to find a career that I really love. So, thankfully, I feel like we do better at the subjects that we love freely. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? You got to be passionate about things. And yeah, I think that's why I didn't do very well at maps, because my brain doesn't work that way. But I just had no interest in it. That's my friend at all. Oh, god. Yeah, it's funny. Dr. B, lives one. When you go over overseas in May, is that for the international version of the book? Or is that further? Yeah, I think that's like tying that in, as well as doing a tour. So I'm doing shows. Yeah. All through much. About not much. May. Yeah. All around the UK. Yeah. So lots of different theaters and also at The Great Escape festival. Yeah, cool. But yeah, that'd be incredible. Well, I'll put some links in the show notes, because I do have international listeners. So if anyone in the neck of the woods Yeah, I'd highly recommend. Like, just say, thank you. You're pretty awesome. Is there anything else you wanted to share before I let you go? No, I think we touched on everything. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Rachel Charge Australian ceramic artist, writer and multidisciplinary creative 10 Article # 8 September 2023 READ Britt Australian designer 8 Article # 18 August 2023 READ Magdalena McGuire Australian author 6 Article # 4 August 2023 READ Sarah Bailey Australian author 4 Article # 7 July 2023 READ Cherie Harte Canadian interdisciplinary artist 2 Article # 23 June 2023 READ Article # READ Thea Rossen Australian musician 9 Article # 24 August 2023 READ Chelsea McCrae Australian podcaster 7 Article # 11 August 2023 READ Stella Anning Australian guitarist 5 Article # 28 July 2023 READ Elena Zima Russian painter 3 Article # 30 June 2023 READ Diane Kazakis Australian mixed media artist 1 Article # 3 June 2023 READ LOAD MORE

6 Magdalena McGuire Australian author 6 Article # 4 August 2023 Hi, I’m Magdalena. I’ve always loved stories, books and words. Reading has been one of the great loves of my life, so it’s no surprise that I’ve always wanted to be a writer. When I was a kid – like many people – I didn’t know that writing could be a ‘job’. I thought it was simply something that you did. That is, that writing was a verb, not a noun. I wrote stories, therefore I could call myself a writer – or so I thought. When I got older things got more complicated. Self-consciousness kicked in and the stories didn’t flow from my imagination to my fingers like they used to. Even worse, it dawned on me that only some people got to go around calling themselves ‘Writers’ (most of these people seemed to be men). Suddenly, it seemed that writing was a very serious and very intellectual business. I’ve tried to rid myself of these archaic ideas but they’re difficult to exorcise altogether. Maybe this is why I still feel sheepish calling myself a writer. It feels like I need a whole lot of credentials (maybe a different gender?) to claim this title. Which is silly, really, because if another woman writer told me this, I’d tell her to own it – own her space, call herself a writer. So, ok. I’ll say it: My name is Magdalena, and I’m a writer. Along with my partner, I’m raising two very funny, and very chaotic, young boys. My older son is in grade one and my younger kid is in kinder. One of the nice things about having kids is that it’s given me the chance to delve into children’s literature. At the moment we’re reading a lot of Andy Griffiths in our house! I’m always encouraging my older to kid to get into other Australian authors, but he always wants to go back to Andy Griffiths. Reading these books together has made me think about what a skill it is to tell stories that grab the reader, that make them laugh and that keep them on the edge of their seat. It’s such a talent! Reading books with my kids has also re-connected me to my childhood love of literature. "It kind of grates on me when, as women, we are compelled to say, ‘I’m really lucky because I have a supportive partner who helps with the housework and looks after the kids.’ I mean, wouldn’t it be nice if this was simply a given? And wouldn’t it be nice if we heard men waxing lyrical about the fact they’re lucky to have partners who ‘help out’ with the domestic load? " Like many women, my creative life is somewhat fractured and haphazard; it takes place in the cracks and margins. My writing time contracts and expands depending on other people’s needs and competing demands like earning money (I work part-time in the research department at a children’s hospital). Something that has helped me immensely in my creative journey is the notion of closing the gap between my writing life and my life. When I first got back into writing fiction as an adult, I thought that I had to make everything up in order to, well, prove that I could. Some people get very sniffy about ‘autobiographical’ writers – particularly when these writers are women. I used to come up with all kinds of outlandish fictional situations in order to prove to myself, and other people, that I really was writing fiction. When I had kids that slowly started to change. I realised that becoming a mother is one of the biggest transformations that a person could go through and that this makes the experience worth writing about. More and more, I started to use my own experiences as catalysts for my fiction. This escalated when I had my second child in 2020. When I went to hospital to give birth, the world was ‘normal’. When I came out, we were in lockdown. It was a point in time in which my own life – and the broader world – were undergoing massive change. So I began to write about it. And because my writing responded to the world around me, it became easier to write in the small slivers of time that I had. Many of these experiences – of having a baby during uncertain times, of finding the funny side of parenting – have made their way, in fictional form, into my short story collection, Born for You. Now, when I’m spending hours shivering in a playground, or when I’m faced with a toddler’s meltdown in a supermarket, I think to myself: ‘Oh well, it’s research. I’ll be able to use this, somehow, in my work.’ In this way, my mum-life has also become my writing-life. Closing the gap between these things has helped me to see motherhood itself as a creative act. To see it as something that, yes, takes time away from my writing but also enriches it. It kind of grates on me when, as women, we are compelled to say, ‘I’m really lucky because I have a supportive partner who helps with the housework and looks after the kids.’ I mean, wouldn’t it be nice if this was simply a given? And wouldn’t it be nice if we heard men waxing lyrical about the fact they’re lucky to have partners who ‘help out’ with the domestic load? Having said that, I know I’m extremely lucky. My husband is a feminist, a man who’s great at caring and cooking. How did he end up this way? He was raised by a feminist mum, that’s how. I’m hoping that this sharing-of-the-load helps us set a good example for our own boys (time will tell!). This support enables me to keep writing. If I had to manage the entire domestic load on my own, as well as do paid work, I don’t think it would be possible for me to be a writer. Motherhood is an incredibly emotionally intense experience. This intensity is something that I try to channel into my work, which examines motherhood as a catalyst for, and symbol of, personal and systemic change. In my short story collection, Born for You, we meet women at the crossroads of change. Sometimes these changes are global, in the cases of war or pandemic. And sometimes these changes are more personal, like, for example, a woman who is grappling with a catastrophic lack of sleep. Each story asks the question: What is it like to love and care for another person when your world has tilted on its axis? I guess this sums up my own transition to motherhood: it felt like my entire world had tilted on its axis. This sense of the ground shifting beneath my feet has been destabilising but also fruitful: it’s something that continues to provide creative fuel for my work. Likewise, I find myself obsessed with writers who explore the territory of motherhood in their work. International authors like Rachel Cusk, Deborah Levy, Bernardine Evaristo, Patricia Lockwood and Celeste Ng. And Australian authors like Angela Savage, Melanie Cheng, Maxine Beneba Clarke, Stephanie Bishop and Kate Mildenhall, to name but a few. These are the writers who inspire me. "I realised that becoming a mother is one of the biggest transformations that a person could go through and that this makes the experience worth writing about. More and more, I started to use my own experiences as catalysts for my fiction." After I had my first child, writing became something I had less time for, as well as something that I desperately wanted to do. It became more important than ever to guard my interior life; to have something that was just mine. Those early days, and nights, were fractured and sleep deprived. Just about all my outings were child-related: trips to the park or rhyme time, or the children’s gallery at the museum. When my child was still a baby (I can’t remember how old he was – that time is a bit of a blur!) I treated myself to an afternoon workshop at a writer’s centre. It was my first big solo outing in a long time. The workshop was hosted by a short story writer, Irish, gregarious, and after class he invited all of us to go downstairs to a wine bar – it’s a very ‘literary’ wine bar, where all the writers hang out, so it was exciting to be going with a crew of writers. We were sitting outside, a large group of us, split over a few tables. On my table, a woman asked about my writing life. I said that I had a baby and that I was working on a novel. I talked about the challenges of doing both these things. There was a pause. Then she said: ‘I have grave concerns for your baby. When I became a mother I gave up writing for twenty years. The wellbeing of my children came first.’ Even as I’m writing this, my heart is speeding up; my fingertips are thrumming. Nearly seven years later, the shock and humiliation still burns. I can still feel the heat of that accusation landing in my chest. I was too shocked to respond. I had too many questions to process: was I doing something wrong by going to a literary event instead of staying at home with my baby? Was I damaging my child because I wanted to be a writer as well as a mother? Did nurturing my literary ambitions inevitably mean that my child would develop a host of psychological problems? Was this a thing? This happened years ago and that baby is now a soon-to-be-seven-year old, and he’s fine. In fact, he’s amazing. But that comment still burns. Recently, I spoke to my friend about what happened. This friend of mine is eminently sensible – and I mean that in the best possible way. She has a finely tuned bullshit detector. She’s also childless by choice and there’s something about this fact that enables her to be completely objective about these motherhood-dilemmas. When I come to her with an issue like this I know that she’ll approach it without any hangups or vested interests. When I told her what happened she laughed in a kind of horrified way. Then she said, ‘I had a mother who dedicated her whole life and her whole identity to looking after me. And you know what? It was a burden. I wanted her to have her own life, her own interests and friends. I wanted her to show me how to be a well-rounded person.’ This is the thought I keep returning to: my job as a mother is to care for my children, yes, and also to show them, through my example, how to engage with the broader world. And that soon-to-be-seven-year old who I stole slivers of time from so I could write? Well he’s ridiculously proud that I’m publishing a book. He says that, one day, he’s going to publish a book too (as well as build houses and look after children and plant trees and make millions of dollars, and, and, and….). He’s seen me work hard at my writing and grapple with the highs and lows, the wins and rejections that come with this sort of work. And I think – I hope – that that’s setting a good example for both my kids. Contact Magdalena I’m super excited that my book about motherhood, Born for You, has now been launched into the world. I’ll be posting any news and events on my website BACK

Damien Leith Irish Australian singer, songwriter, author and playwright S4Ep99 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts To celebrate Fathers Day in the US and northern hemisphere I am thrilled to welcome well known Irish / Australian singer Damien Leith to the show. Damien is a multi-talented artist that has made his mark in Australia as a singer/ songwriter, producer, author, playwright and tv/radio host personality and he is a dad of 3 children. Damien grew up in Ireland surroudned my music, but didnt get into singing until he was 17. He started a family band with his brother and 2 sisters and toured around Ireland. He came to Australia in 2003 after meeting his soon to be wife Eileen in Ireland, on the first leg of a round the world trip, and has never left! The talented family man first captured the attention and affection of Australians when he contested the 2006 edition of Australian Idol – a series he went on to win. Since then, his career skyrocketed, but he has remained charming, grounded and modest – securing him a place as a popular and well-loved Australian personality. Over the past 17 years Damien has enjoyed platinum-selling albums selling over 750,000 albums and won many prestigious awards including Arias, a Golden Guitar, Songwriter of the Year and many more. His Aria wins include number 1 chart awards for the albums WHERE WE LAND and THE WINNER'S JOURNEY, highest selling album, and highest selling single and number 1 chart award for the track, NIGHT OF MY LIFE. His music has been chosen to appear in commercials, movies and television shows. Damien was a celebrity contestant and finalist on the 2011 series of DANCING WITH THE STARS. Damien also loves creative writing, publishing two novels ONE MORE TIME (2007) and REMEMBER JUNE (2009). He also shares his expertise as a singer/songwriter and has created online courses to help artists improve their voice and songwriters to write, record and release their own music through his DAMIEN LEITH ACADEMY. When Damien is not touring and performing, he spends his time in his recording studio where he is a highly sought-after songwriter (published through Embassy Publishing) and producer. Writing for many artists, he won 2016 APRA/ASA songwriter of the year and 2017 APRA/AMCOS GOLDEN GUITAR winner for song of the year. This episode contains mentions of OCD Damien - website / shows Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Damien. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never ceded. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the podcast today to celebrate Father's Day in the US and other countries around the world. I'm thrilled to welcome well known Irish Australian singer Damien Leith to the show. Damian is a multi talented artists that has made his mark in Australia as a singer and songwriter, a producer, author, playwright and TV and radio host and he's also the dad of three children. Damien grew up in Ireland surrounded by music, but didn't seriously get into singing until he was 17. He started a family band with his brother and two sisters and toured around Ireland. In 2003. After meeting his soon to be Wi Fi lane, he set out on the first leg of around the world trip and arrived in Australia, and he has never left. This talented family man first captured the attention and affections of Australians when he contested the 2006 edition of Australian Idol, a series that he went on to win. Since then his career has skyrocketed. But he's remained charming, grounded and modest, securing him a place as a popular and well loved Australian personality. Over the past 17 years, Damien has enjoyed platinum selling albums, and won many prestigious awards, including Arias, a golden guitar Songwriter of the Year and many more. His music has been chosen to appear in commercials, movies and TV shows. Damien was also a celebrity contestant and finalist on the 2011 series of Dancing with the Stars. He also loves Creative Writing, Publishing two novels in 2007 and 2009. He also shares his expertise as a singer songwriter, and has created online courses to help artists improve their voice and songwriters to write, record and release their own music through the Damien Leith Academy. When Damian is not touring and performing, he spends his time in his studio, where he's a highly sought after songwriter, and producer. Today's episode contains mentions of OCD. Throughout today's episode, you'll hear snippets of Damian's music, which is used with permission from my APA and cost money online license. Thanks so much for tuning in. I appreciate your ongoing support due to changing work commitments, my nine to 5am I unable to keep doing the podcast every week. So over the next few weeks, please enjoy some written articles, which will be released every Friday. And you can find them on my website. Alison newman.net/articles. I got you, I got you thank you so much for coming on. Damian. It's such a pleasure to meet you. Likewise, absolute pleasure. Yeah, it's really great to have you on. I've been a really big fan of yours for a very long time. So I'm saying to go silly now. Well, that's nice. There's nothing wrong with that. I've actually seen you perform at the Irish festival. I've been croit the few years ago. I love that festival every time I've played there quite a few times now. Maybe five times and I love it. It's such a great vibe. Here. Little town as well. So, yeah. Oh, it was a real treat get down there. Yeah, yeah. Have you got it on your plans to come back anytime soon? I don't have the not for the next two years at least. Yeah. Because I observed the last time was it last year, I think, last year or the year before? Yeah. So. So we normally have a little bit of a gap. So but and it's also it's based around an invite as well. So he kind of wants to get an invite as well by the organizers. But I'll definitely be back. I love it. It is just a gorgeous vibe. And like, it feels like being back in Ireland, it's kind of a little Irish town. So there's something about that little town that just works. It's funny, because the rest of the year, it's basically just this little town that exists, and no one knows about it. And then for this one weekend of the year just explodes. And it's just, it's awesome. We just love it. So much fun. And I did enjoy the version you played last time you were there of black is the color that you sang with, I think it was a local girl that sang with you. And that, that that federal part in the middle, and then it changes. I don't know what the chords are. But it changes back from the Federal part to the like, the regular verse. And then it's one bit where it just changes. And every time I hear I just get goosebumps. It's like it just lifts and I can't describe it really. But it's it's pretty, pretty amazing. So Oh, well. That's great. That part actually, that was that was originally played by Sharon core from the course. Oh, are you kidding? Yeah. Which which was an incredible experience. I I recorded an Irish album. And the whole idea was to try and make it as authentic as possible. So I recorded it in Ireland. And and while we were there, we managed to get two major major guests. One was Sharon core. And the other one was Sharon Shannon. And Sharon Shannon has I think she played Corona as well. Incredible accordion player, but they haven't haven't Sharon core on there was a real real treat. You know, I'd been a fan of the course when I was a kid. So I happen a core actually play and so she sings on it as well. Oh, okay. Yeah, so that's pretty cool. Very cool. Very cool. Great violinist. Yeah, they're actually they're coming to Australia. Soon I think that's fine. Pretty much everyone would know you from your dates on the Australian Idol. But what did you do before then? Like, when did you come to Australia? And when did you get into singing? Was it always something that you did growing up in Ireland? Yeah, singing singles was a major part of my life. From the age of about 1617 onwards. Prior to that the only thing I ever wanted to do was be an actor. I loved acting. Yes. For years and years. And I've never sung a note until I was about, I think I will say 17. But I think it was about 16. I auditioned for a school musical. That's, that's really what got me into music, music. But music has always been in the family. My mother is a great singer. And she her whole family are all singers. So there's a long, long history of singers in the family and dad plays guitar. So music was a major part of our lives growing up. But from the age of about 17 onwards, I became obsessed with music. Absolutely, you know, totally over the top of our music, I started learning how to play the piano on the guitar and I started writing my own songs. And I convinced the rest of my family to create a family band with me. So it was my two brothers, my sister and myself. And we went from just this little band that played out in the back garden in the in the shed to a band that actually gig all over Ireland. Yeah, yeah, we absolutely loved it. So, so I was doing that. But I also studied to become a chemist. So So in the end, I actually became a chemist. And, and prior to arriving in Australia, I was a full time chemists or works as an industrial chemist. Yeah, from 995 as a chemist, and at the weekends as a musician, and it was great. Yeah, right. Just on that what's what's the difference between a compounding chemist in an industrial chemist? Well, from what you actually studied at uni, it they they kind of started the same path but one definitely branches off so I would have gone more into the to the actual lab style chemistry where an actual compound chemists or somebody who actually run runs a store works in the store. They specialize in, in knowing and understanding what medicine should be prescribed to certain person and on all the different side effects and you know, everything that is required for someone to be able to actually deal with a patient might come in off the street where I was definitely more from the research side. And I did load research. I researched for years I did. I did all sorts of different drug research trials. I did, you know, analysis on new drugs that were coming out so I did a lot of that sort of stuff. Yeah, that sounds pretty interesting sometimes you was it your chemist work deployed to Australia or your music that brought you out here? It was love that brought me out of here it was. It had nothing to do with the other two. Nothing whatsoever. My wife is Australian. I met her in Ireland. And from the moment we met, it was kind of a love at first sight. We were married within three years. Yeah, it was, you know, a whirlwind, but absolutely amazing. So I met her in Ireland. She was visiting her grandmother, so her dad's Irish, her mother's tongue. And she was obviously born in Australia. So she was over there visiting her grandmother, I happen to be working in the same place that she was working. And one thing led to another and yet Three years later, we were married and decided to go around the world on a honeymoon. So we had around the world ticket one the SLUBs happened to be in Sydney. And once we arrived in Sydney, we never left. Oh, there you go save still got that rest of that holiday to go at some point. Expired I think unfortunately, that's really the sun go down on Galway. Just stay here again, the ripple of the trout stream. Where man in the meadow is making desired a turf RM Nakaba. 17 is sort of older to come into music. So I can sort of understand how you sort of described it as being like you've really got into it all of a sudden, because it's almost like you were sort of cramming in, like 17 years worth of, of music catching up, you know, that sort of thing. Does that is that sort of how it felt like you were just sucking in everything you could and sort of soaking it all up. Yeah, it was like that. It was also such a new experience. Because once I got a taste for music, I really found that I enjoyed it in a major way. I mean, I love the feeling of singing. It was one of those sort of things I used to go into the living room back home in Ireland, we lived in a little country town called Milltown out surrounded by farm fields. So there wasn't a whole bunch of houses all around around us where, you know, if I was singing at the top of my lungs, people would be given out. But I just loved the feeling. I loved going into room and I loved challenging myself to try and sing high notes or to try and sing like Frank Sinatra or nakin core. Interestingly, when I started singing, I did not sing a lot of the songs that traditional, you know, traditionally people would start off singing and I didn't go through that, that whole you know, going through scales and all that sort of stuff because I never had lessons or was just CDs that are logged in. And like I said Nat King Cole was probably one of my major artists that I saw long term which is very strange, because that can cause quite a low singer. And I ended up with quite a high range. But I just love the emotion and the likes of Nat King Cole and and all the all crooners just to put into songs. I love that feeling of being able to tell a story. Hmm, yeah. And I guess that that sort of ties in with like, the Irish heritage of like a lot of the songs that that stories really in song format, they there's a lot like that. Yeah, oh, absolutely. All those old Irish stories, they're all the stories about losing someone or some sort of conflict or something that was really that had a major impact on someone's life. And, and the only way you can sing those songs is by putting, putting a lot of feeling into them. So I think for me starting off, being interested in all of that style of music really helped me out on that, but I've been a singer for last since I can remember. But it wasn't until I went to the Irish festival in Croydon and actually was around people singing like the crowds of people singing and realized how many like, I don't want to get political or anything, but like the passion and the struggles that, like people from Ireland had faced throughout the years like and it just, it was really overpowering at one point, I sort of found myself sort of, I don't know, in this moment where I just had this realization of what it all meant, like, it's not just a duty and a little happy tune about whatever like, it's like, the real background in some of those songs is really quite powerful. Yeah. Oh, they are. Absolutely. And it's interesting that a lot of those old Irish songs, the message is very, very strong. They, a lot of them were written, inspired by actual events that really, really moved people that influenced their entire lives. But those stories still still carry on, even now, many years later. And even though they don't always link necessarily to the political side of stuff, the sentiment is so strong that if you've got something in your own life, that means a lot to you. Like, a real common thing for anyone living in Australia from Ireland is homesickness. The the melody and melancholy of a lot of those songs, helps you sometimes with your homesickness, and there's something in the in the music that by singing it, or by listening to it, you don't know you get a kind of a way of dealing with missing home or being homesick. Yeah. hard to describe. But this is the songs are just so beautifully written that they allow you to express your emotions. Yeah, no, I can I can understand that. And yeah, like, oh, come in process saying I was there was one in particular, I thought the first time I ever heard it saying around me. That one about the Freebirds fly. What's that? Yeah, I didn't realize like, Oh, my God, this is full on like, this is people, you know, as Australians, and like most of us have never had to fight for our country or fight for our identity. And it was like, wow, this is unreal. Like, and that my friend Helen. She's from Northern Ireland. So yeah, she's got a different perspective on it, too. But yeah, interesting. I just wanted to mention that without, you know, going into things. No, no, I told you that my dad's from Belfast. So, you know, so I traveled up and down to Northern Ireland when I was a kid. And I saw different stages of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. And I mean, Arlen really was a country at war. That is something that sometimes when people refer Carlon, the kind of the make light of that, but actually, it was really serious situation really, really, truly was and, and affects so many people that see it. And I think from like, I mean, I tend to think of myself as a worldly sort of person. Like, I listened to the news, I watch things, whatever. But until I'd met someone, that it was from there and understood it, I had no concept, no concept at all, you know, like you just you just hear words like, you know, about Shin Fane and things like that. And the IRA, but you don't really get it. So yeah. Yeah. The pie, supine, soft call. From Glen to the mountains. This summer's gone. So you said before you've never had singing lessons. So were you just self taught like your falsetto. And in your range? You just worked that all out on your own? Yeah, I did. It was It's the voice that I have my the sound that I have, is a very familiar sound in amongst my mom's family. So there's definitely a history there. The sound of the voice, it's definitely traveled from through the generations, there's no question about that. So what I discovered that I could sing, I was actually very blessed, to have a voice already had a lot of the things that I would need to actually perform. Now, none of it was developed, I still had the scene and sing and sing and sing, to try and get to improve and to find my own style and find my own way around it. But yeah, but you know, I think with a voice, you're either born with a certain sound, or you work on it, it's one or the other. The voice can always be improved beyond that. But I was definitely in that category of someone who just had a voice to begin with. Yeah, like I've I've had, I can relate to that. Like, I've had a lot of coaching later in life with my singing. And it sort of comes down to literally what sort of voice box you've got, like the length of your, whatever those things are called in your throat and how thick they are, you know, you can't you can't change your genetics, but you can definitely work with what you've got to get the best out of it. For sure, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You're, you're it's, you know, Your Your makeup is all about the style, your voice, the tone, your voice comes from, you know, the space within your mouth, your approach the the air that's passing through the larynx, all of that comes into effect. So your genetics definitely come into into play with what you're going to end up having. Obviously, you can't improve it, you can widen the range. And you can try and get resonance to sit in a different place in your mouth, and all that sort of stuff as well to improve it. But you can be very fortunate just to be born with a certain sound. Yeah, that's something I've gotten really interested in the last few years is where you place the sound in your face, like where you can we can get that different sound and pushing it out through your nose or, you know, I don't know, like when you've been singing for a long time, I think you start to sort of experiment a bit more and think how you can change your tone. And I don't know. Yeah, I think I found that really interesting. Probably the last five years, getting a bit more into that will interest in last year, near the end of last year, I managed to get COVID. And I got COVID While I still had loads of shows on so I had tons of shows I had this thing, I couldn't cancel the show's canceled for many reasons. But probably the main reason was COVID had arrived, you know, three years prior to that, and I lost so many shores. And I had to reschedule them so many, many times that they eventually came about, I couldn't just cancel them again, I had this thing on it. So I did a sang on them. And while I was doing that, I also had a breakfast radio show. So I was getting up early in the morning, I was doing the radio show as well. And by the end of last year, I actually I heard my voice genuinely hurt my voice. And I ended up attending an en ti and the NT, you know, examined my throat. And so what damage was thanks, thankfully, nothing long term, but enough damage that I was actually for the first time in my life in the last two months, instructed not to sing. Well, this complete rest, complete rest and also to attend a speech pathologist and a singing teacher. So for the first time ever, I've really had for a long period of time of working with a singing teacher, and I've been really looking into your voice and then where you place things and and it's extraordinary what your voice can actually do. It really is an amazing instrument. It can do things that you just wouldn't imagine that it can actually do. And it does it all from the inside. So you you know, it's not like a guitar where you can actually touch it and you can change the strings. This is all controlled by air the whole thing all controlled by air. It's a it's an amazing instrument. Yeah, it is fascinating. When you think of it like that. Did you get nodules? Is that what happened to you? Or no, I didn't thankfully. I was worried that I did. Yeah, because I had to push so hard. I had so many shows all that some time when I was sick. Thankfully, no, no long term damage at all. Basically, it was like I sprained my throat. Like so. I just had the rest of its back. And it's working really, really well. That's good. Thank goodness. Can you imagine like, did you ever go through your mind? Like, what if I can't get back to my, you know, my previous power? What will I do with myself like, was your head yeah, yeah. Oh, no, absolutely. I was I was worried sick. And like I said, thankfully, I went to the right people and the right people pointed me in the right direction. And actually, as a result of it, I think I'm coming out of it as a better singer, which is what I'm loving the most. There's there's things that I had been doing wrong because it didn't have the experience the training, there was things that I was actually I have always done wrong, that now I've fixed for going forward and I think it's already improved in the sound of my voice and it's improving my range and what I can do with the voice, which is great. Hmm, so a little bit of a silver lining to the code. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, I had COVID this time last year, and I found it took a long time for my my power to come back that like you know, just getting the air in that that was the thing that took took a really long time. So it really messes with you. It's a horrible thing. Oh somebody's like you know? Tell us a little bit about your family. I read on the internet that you've got three children. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about them. Yeah, so I'm married to Ireland. Ireland. As I said, I've met in Ireland and she's originally from Australia. So when we moved to Australia was 20 years ago, we arrived in Australia. We were broke because we were doing a run the world trip. When we decided to get jobs, I got straight into the chemistry and Ireland got into the marketing and, and within a short space of time, Australia started to feel like home to us. So it was around that point that we got pregnant with Jarvis. Jarvis is our oldest. He's 17. fast forward another couple of years along him Jagger who's 15. And then along came little Kiki she's 11 and and the the three proudest things that I've done in my lifetime. I gotta be honest, people always say, Oh, well, what's the what's the best best memories? Or what are the best moments in your life and for me, it always revolves around Island jobs Jagger and Kiki the kids and Ireland. That's really it. They all have those moments of clips, anything else, you know, there's nothing that really compares to, to spending time with them. And with the kids watching them grow and become the people that they want to become. It's it's an amazing experience. It's challenging, of course, lots and lots of but it is great. Yeah. And yeah, now that they're getting older, like you said, they're, they're developing and turning into, you know, their own real people. It's a pretty exciting time, I've got a just turned 15 year old and a seven year old and yeah, this 15 year old watching him trying to work out what to do with school and picking subjects and just thinking about the future. Now that's it's a whole new world, isn't it? It is, and it's a strange, new, we're alive. I think. I sound like an old person here. But back in my day, it seemed a lot simpler. It, it's interesting, they have so much at their disposal now with technology and with everything else, but it seems more complicated than ever, because of all that. They're the exposure that they're dealing with and, you know, impacts on on a lot their choices and impacts about their emotions and how they feel. We're back in our day, we didn't have all that at all. So you may do with what you had. Now, I find the new generation has everything. And it's hard for them to make do with it. Because if they don't like it, they move on to something else. Yeah, that whole idea of not concentrating enough time on any particular thing. I actually think that's a real challenge for this generation coming through. Well, I'm early childhood educator in my day job. And we actually were talking about this exact subject at a training I went to on last week, that they reckon that because of like the likes of Tik Tok, and in YouTube and Instagram, where the algorithms will throw things at you to keep you on there. So you might watch a little bit of something, and then it goes, Oh, they're about to get off. So let's give them this. So our brains are changing, and are only used to concentrating for really short amounts of time now, because of what we're exposed to, which is really scary. I think it's very scary. I think, from a creative point of view. It's going to, I worry that it might impact the next generation come through from a creative point of view, you know, that that whole idea of sitting down and really concentrating and creating something that's, that's been taken away? Because technology is kind of sitting in there, you've got the AI now that can write stories for you who got Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're exposed to so many different things that they don't actually have to sit down, and really concentrate in and come up with something themselves, they can actually technology can do it for them. And while that's an amazing thing, and like I say, I sound like my day sort of person, but I do worry about it. I think on one level, it can be great. And on the flip side, it can take away that whole creative side and creative sides are really what matters most to me. I love the creative world. I love seeing what people can come up with using their their talents and their abilities. It's essentially taking away what it means to be human, isn't it? It's like, you can plug this thing into a computer, and it will be will write a story or or do a painting, you know, all this? Yeah, it's just taking away what it really means to be human. I feel like it's, it's horrible. Yeah. But what to me what may happen as a result of this is that the next generation are very creative people coming through, will have to be even more rebellious than ever before, because they'll have to stand up in the past that the creative person was was often quite, quite often the the rebellious person, the person that went against society or the person who went against the norm. They've got an even bigger challenge. They're going against the norm and they're going against simplicity. Because it's, you know, if you have a feeling about something, you could always just go oh, just chant. Type it into an AI and it'll just write it for me. So they You have to be strong willed. And they have to make that really conscious decision that says, You know what, I'm going to be an individual here entirely. So that that I create something that hasn't been created before. And I think that'll pose a lot of challenges. It's like when we're breeding a whole new range of rebels that are gonna go against this next next level of technology, you will have to be an individual. There's so much stopping them from doing that. Yeah, yeah. And things always go in cycles. That's the thing I always find, like, I'm hoping that this, this AI and stuff will, will sort of ease off because people will start to go, oh, hang on, this isn't right. And it'll, you know, hopefully go against it, and take it down a notch. But we can only hope, time will tell. But on the flip side, I will say I because I'm a real. I do like technology. Because I record in my own studio and things like that. The things that you can do with technology are incredible. So it'll be it'll be that idea of finding the right balance of knowing when to switch off and when to switch off. Yours can be. Want to ask you about your other creative talents that you've actually written some books as well. When did you get into writing? Is that something you always did? Or is that a sort of a new thing you discovered? No, I always did it. I as a kid growing up, when I was very, very young, I developed OCD. Like real OCD. As opposed to a lot of people will say, Oh, I'm an OCD because I have my house clean. This is more than just the OCD that actually impacts your day, your day to day activities, on and off light switches and all this crazy stuff. But I developed that as a young age. And one of the mechanisms for dealing with it was the right to take the thoughts that I had and put them into some sort of writing. So from a very young age, I used to write plays. I love writing plays and and I wrote them in primary school and secondary school and, and that writing eventually moved into stories. And then books. So actually the first book that I got published, I'd written before I even went on Australian Idol and I wrote it while I was traveling in the UK. I love it. I love writing, it's one of my favorite things is to just get lost in a story. Again, that's why I'm also passionate with with artistic things and doing that. It's great for the mind as well. So if you have you written anything like you talked about running plays, have you written anything that's been put on as a production. I went back years ago, again, when I was writing most of the plays, I had nearly all of them put on at different points. But it was also on an amateur level, little amateur drum societies. I've asked him to put it on the do table reads and actually, I've had it luckily I've had a few of them put on. And I love that. So it was just fantastic to see see these things coming to life, and then also gave me an opportunity to act on them. Yeah, so you got to live out that dream as well. Yeah, exactly. But I like to say I love writing plays. And I started off with plays because I wasn't much of a reader. I didn't like reading. So I didn't have the vocab to to really describe things. So I started off with plays and then as time went on, I got into reading and developed the you know, better language and better ways of describing things and and that led to the books. And you write fiction work? Yeah, I suppose the the books that are released so far, both fiction, one is a guy traveling through Nepal, backdrop of the most. The poor enforcement of Nepal, we myself, my wife, Eileen, we traveled through Nepal during our honeymoon. We saw how politically it was going through an awful tough time. And that was kind of an inspiration for the for the book. And it was about a guy with OCD traveling in that sort of environment. So it had little, little elements of being in there as well. Yeah. Essentially, it was a kind of psychological thriller. Yeah. And then the second book was, again, it was a had a psychological element to it, but it was about a father and a son growing up in the troubles of Ireland. And the two of them how they cope with grief and loss and also their own relationships. So again, it's more of a psychological story. But what I love doing, give me a chance to write about it. And then reminisce. Yeah. Oh, that's nice. You can sort of incorporate the two sort of fiction nonfiction together. Do you have any writing at the moment? Are you working on another book or anything? I actually I have a book. I was, I wrote another book. I'm trying to walk republishing. So this one is a kids book. Oh, cool. Yeah. So we the book is finished. We're now at the second stage of editing it. So hopefully, it'll be out later this year, or maybe the start of next year. Oh, fantastic. Are you allowed to share what it's about? Or is it a bit secretive at the moment, I can give a little idea. Now, it's, it's more in the style of Roald Dahl. And that's probably the audience I, I always told bedtime stories to my kids. And I have hundreds of these have also recorded them. So I've still got them on my phone. Oh, cool. Yeah. But along the way, there was one story, I started to tell the kids. And it ended up being one of those continuation stories where you say, oh, you know, to find out what happens next, in your bed this time tomorrow night. And I ended up recording, you know, chapters of this whole thing I listened back to about a year or so ago. And that's, you know, that could really lend itself to a good story. So I sat down and start writing it. But ultimately, it's about two sisters who get separated when when they're very, very young. They're in the care of a horrible, horrible lady who only wants to take them on board, as foster kids purely to use them to clean up or disgusting house and to slave them around the place. But in the midst of all that, they get separated. And then it fast forward to many years later. And these these kids have got to find each other. But the horrible lady still had to get them and you know, follows that sort of path. Oh, that sounds exciting. Oh, good luck with that, oh, we're looking for that when it comes out. That's fantastic. worrying, because that's what the old folks to say. You can always tell the beggar from the fee. But you know, that I love that about you. Today, to ask you a bit more about yourself as a as a father, have you found with your songwriting, since you had two kids that you've sort of changed how you write or what you write about, is it they sort of inspire you a little bit? It always inspires me? Yeah, for me Sunland, and has always been linked to personal things in my life. So all was personally driven. And definitely once the kids came along, all the songs came, you know, all the songs that I started writing had some sort of family influence, whether it be discovering that, you know, for instance, and could like a couple examples, not just for the weekend was on one of my first albums that that song was purely about my son Jagger getting to take him home from hospital. That's really what it's about. That moment of knowing that, hey, you actually get to take him home from hospital a lot of other people couldn't, for different reasons, premature babies and all sorts of situations why they couldn't bring their gorgeous little child home from hospital. But we did. And we got got to experience a beautiful moment. So I wrote a song about that. song Beautiful. I wrote about my wife, Eileen. There's a song that I've got coming out later on the year, which is first day of school. And that's all about dropping my daughter to school for the first time. And then my thoughts about Well, I had to give her away to school on that day, and I had the lever and then a password to actually keep it away on our wedding day. Yeah. Yeah. Together. Yeah. And then there's another son called Son for Jarvis. And like, literally, it states exactly who it's for. Yeah. Do the kids. Do they know that you're writing about them? Like, do they feel that sort of connection that this is really cool. But dad write songs for us? Oh, well, I don't know. Actually. Yeah. Yeah, I've never openly told him that the songs are for them. They just hear the songs and they're like them. It's funny. They're all at that stage where they've got their own interests, their own, what they like and what they what they don't like. So I never pushed music down their throats at all on any level. It's always there for them. And if they if they want to get involved, or if they want to sing or if they want to hear something. I'm there for them. But there's definitely no never any pressure for them even to listen to my songs. Yeah. Are they do they play? Are they musical? Yeah, they're all really musical. Yeah, they're there. They love acting. They're all in musicals as well, local musical societies. But they all play and they all sing as well. So it's great. It's seen it and it's great. Seeing that they just do it because they want to. Yeah, that's a big thing. I think like I grew up us for 20 years I sang in this vocal group. And we got to this age, we all started having kids around the same time. And some of the girls were like, really wanted their children to follow in their footsteps and seeing them, whatever. And I was like, Ah, I don't know, I don't think my kid would stand still long enough on stage to sing. So I never put any pressure on him. And, and even when he's like, playing music, like my husband and I both play, but that's our Do you want me to teach you anything? Or show you something? No, I don't want to. And now, all of a sudden, at the age of was about 13 and a half, how do you decide you want to play the bagpipes? So it definitely didn't come from us. It was. So I think I think it's good just to let them go and see where they end up. And yeah, even when you're really you're really passionate about music yourself. It's like you don't want to, you know, push them so much that they start to resent it, because you're always on their back about playing something. So, yeah, well, we're exactly the same. We're just like I said, it's there. If they want to learn something, if they just got a passion for something, and they want to get lessons, we try to provide that for them. But it's really over to them. They what is gorgeous to see is that they have shown interest anyway. Yeah, it is. It's crazy. Because you are saying to someone the other day on the on a recording that you just want your kids to experience music because it's so awesome. Like, you just, you just want them to see how amazing it isn't because you love it so much. It's like you want them to, to experience all the wonderful things about it to know what am I sort of? Yeah, and what it can do for your life. Because music. I mean, you know, so many hospitals use now musical music as a way of, of helping people through all sorts of traumas and all sorts of treatments, because music has that ability to raise spirits, or as we said earlier on with the Irish music, to allow you to talk about things or get your emotions out. So music is such an important thing. And if anyone can discover and discover Laufer can really help them in their life, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I sort of said to my son, like, he's at the age now where everyone's all his mates are getting jobs. And he's not quite ready for that yet, sort of, he hasn't sort of he's still organizing his way through school. Yeah, he's not quite ready to add anything else to it. But I said like what you're doing with your SyncML you with the music, like he paid plays in the local Pipe Band. It's like you're learning all those skills about cooperation and compromise and you're listening to others and you know, you can learn so much from playing music with other people. Yeah, absolutely. Being in a bounder being in some sort of organization is a great thing. Really is and you make great friends as well. So why not? Yeah, absolutely. Now take you home. Not just for the weekend. Jays days. Welcome in and I give you not just for this moment. Now, I want to mention and hopefully I'm not going to go on about this too long. I'm a massive Beatles fan. And I was very excited to talk to you about your show that you're doing the songs of Lennon McCartney to have Darren COVID So who's your favorite Lennon or McCartney? Oh, it's a controversial one, isn't it? Funnily enough when we do the show, so Darren, and I, you know, we don't it's like anything that I've done in the past. I never tried to mimic anyone. I just tried to pay homage to him. I just liked them. And I just sing their songs. That's really what it is. Yeah, I put me off when we do the show. I seem to do a lot more of the Lennon songs than I do the McCartney songs. Even though if I'm being totally honest, McCartney is my favorite. Yeah, candy is my favorite G and also your voice to you. You've got their higher voice which is sort of like older thought you'd do more of those high harmonies that Paul does. I do I do a lot of the when we perform together Darren and I, I'll take on the Paul McCartney harmonies a lot of the time but when we the individual songs, I seem to always end up on the Lenin songs. So just a just a wetlands. The way we do the show. We play guitar, but I also play the piano and I think you know, Lennon has some beautiful piano songs. So I think that's why I kind of landed there. Yeah, yeah, it's, I don't know, I was listening to some stuff this morning because I've got like, got them on my USB in the car. And it always blows my mind how they created so much and so such diversity and such experimentation but there are only active for 10 years together. You just think how how can you do all of that as a band in 10 years like that just blows my mind. It is it Amazing thing. But you know, it's an interesting thing you think of when you're in a band situation. It's so insular. It's your own little world. And if the band work really well together, I think back about when we had our family band, my two brothers, my sister myself, that was probably one of the most creative times I ever had was when I was writing nonstop, obviously not right, not writing classic like The Beatles, but the influence of being around people like that, and being around you know, other musicians who want the same thing. So when when you're driving each other to come up with great ideas. It's amazing how much actually happens. So each other and bouncing off each other and maybe competing with each other. Yeah, yeah, that's it. And it's an amazing thing. But they were they were incredible. The bagels, they it wasn't even just what the creators what they created so young as well as their insight on life was amazing for people that were essentially just kids. Yeah, like, honestly, I just think of him and I just I can't fathom how they did what they did. And then to still go on, obviously, linens no longer with us. But you know, Paul, still making music now. It's just, it's amazing. But I wanted to ask you do you have a favorite album, or I was always the White Album, where I was, and the reason being for the White Album, my brother Paul had a tape cassette of The White Album. In our little tour van. Back when we were kids gigging around Ireland. It was all stuck in there. We listened to non stop it was just so I kind of fell on that album purely because it was the only album we had in the car. I just love it and I knew every single song backwards and forwards and but I do love all the other albums rather off Sergeant Pepper's the whole the Abbey Road. They're all they're all amazing albums. Yeah, I go like White Album and revolver are my top two. They're the two that I go back and forth between the love revolver, but then they sort of there's some stuff I just think, I don't want to say they lose me on some stuff. But I just think God, they must have been having a hell of a time when they recorded some of this stuff. There is some random songs not everything was called. A lot of stuff. I mean, early albums, I think of Uber soul, but maybe not that one. The one of the the early albums where the do more of the pop songs. This, this is really only what two or three really good songs and some of those albums are for me anywhere. Yeah, I know what you mean. Like, yeah, like, was it with the Beatles, or one of those? I can see the cover of it for I can't think of what it is. But yeah, some of them you just think oh, no, I don't need to listen to this. And some of them sound so similar to it's that typical, like 12 bar blues like rock and roll sort of thing. That's just a no yeah, it was a was there was still experimenting with this sound. On the way through, yeah, but wow, they were amazing. I can't really criticize any of them. They were they were all kept with. God forbid, like Alison sits here and criticizes the betas. No, we're not gonna take no, we're not gonna do that. They knew what they were doing. Yeah, that's pretty special so one of the topics I like to talk to all my mom guest on the show, is topic of mum guilt, which we sort of say is like, you know, mums feel bad if they're not doing things for their kids or with their kids. And it's difficult to take that step away and, and do something for yourself. And I've had dads that I've chatted with on the show, it's not the same sort of thing. It's, I think, because the mother is, you know, it's ingrained in your DNA, I guess, because you, you birth for children, but I wondered if you had any thoughts on sort of yourself and I don't want to say dad guilt because I don't think it's a great term. But do you ever sort of feel that pull between wanting to be home but you know, you're doing what you love and in your career and doing whatever it? Is that something that goes on for you? Oh, absolutely. No, no, no question. I find every day is a balancing act like every single day. So it's not even just being on the road touring or anything like that. Even on a day to day basis. There's things that I would love to be doing things that I think I should be doing. But there's a lot of things that the kids need me to do as well. There's things that I need to be there for them with and it could be simple thing six months In simple things, it could be things like homework, or it could be helping them with something, it could be just listening to them. On the flip side, it could be, you know, really spending quality time with them. And you do. I think there's a point that comes in as a parent where you those sacrifices are necessary, you have to make them that it's necessary. But it's again, trying to find the balance, trying to find some way that allows you to give them as much as you can possibly give them but still be yourself and still stay intact in who you are. Because if you start losing who you are in the process, then they're not getting the full benefits of the parent that they could have. That sounds weird, but this just makes total sense. Because that's something that a lot of moms talk about, you'd feel like you literally lose yourself, because you've got to give so much to these other people. There's little, there's little people that can't do things for themselves, and they need so much support. And then your your identity literally sort of dissolves for a period of time. So yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. Yeah. And sometimes your your sense of humor can disappear and things like that. And you never want that to go away. As a parent, we all fall into that role of a it's our job to guide our kids and to discipline our kids and to be the responsible person for the kids. But the kids also need that sense of humor that you have or that that childishness that you have yourself because we all still have that in us as well. Kids need that as well, then kids love that. And only we're being ourselves, do we expose the kids to those sorts of sides of our personalities? And you know, and that is, that is where the balance has to be right? You got to try and find a way to always still be you be the person that you've always been, but also been the responsible parent at the same time. Yeah, it's just a constant juggle, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And it changes nonstop. And yes, older. It's new problems, and it's new things that you got to deal with. And it doesn't get any easier. Just yeah, it gets different that CD, isn't it? Yeah. With the that's what I'm finding with my to like, with the age gap. I feel like I'm literally in two different worlds at one time, just depending on which child I'm talking to you. It's just, you know, and I guess you'd be saying, you know, 11 and 17. There's a big, big gap of life in there, isn't there? Absolutely different, different needs different, different things happening in their life? He very much she's just a young, she's 11. You know, and a lot of the things that she'll talk to me about, even though she seems sometimes I think she's a 20 year old, but yeah, but still, you know, she still has that useful way about her work. Job is on the flip side, just got his driving license to contend with, that's a whole new world that we're about to step into. Yeah, it is a new world, isn't it? Yeah. I've already told my husband that I'm not having anything to do with teaching the boys how to drive that can be his job because they just I don't think I would cope very well. No, it is nerve racking. Yeah, you know. Anyway, I'm so happy he got his license. But then on the flip side, I was only talking about earlier on this morning. The worry set in the second Oh no. Now they're driving on the road no parent around and that becomes a whole other worry. Anyway, so it works. Yes. You've just got to hope that you've instilled in them you know, the best you can to take care of themselves and others and making those good decisions and yeah, you can't you can't keep them locked up forever. So no, you can I mean back in the old days of 17 they were working at home yeah, that's so true. Yeah, absolutely no, you're just want to get the colors you borrow something the books got some big shows coming up. I I'm doing the orchestra shows. We just yeah, we just we just want to we did want to Melbourne last weekend and later on the air we're in Sydney and a camera so it's a fork so 35 people on stage with me so it's a massive massive show. So they're the big ones but I've lots of other shows coming up and and obviously the book and all the rest of there's a lot going on over the next while. Yeah. Hopefully people keep on coming to the shows and then join them. Oh, that's exciting. Now Good on you. Do you do private will you Bri The Mind if I sit here down by your graveside and rest for a while in the wound summers I've been walking no Dan, I'm nearly done. See so much for coming on Damian has been such a pleasure to chat to you and thank you for sharing all your thoughts and all the the ups and downs and ins and outs of being a dad and being a creative that yeah, thanks again. Not a problem. My pleasure. Thanks for having me on. Take care. Bye. takes 20 to say thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes

Sarah Hens Australian blogger S3 Ep93 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Sarah Hens, Sarah is a blogger from the Blue Mountains in NSW Australia, and a mum of 1. Following a pregnancy that almost claimed her life, Sarah was compelled to record her own experience with preeclampsia , eclampsia and birth trauma . She used wriiting as a way to not only record what happened so she wouldn't forget (at times being in the ICU and coming in and out of consciousness), but to work through her experience and to make sense of it. Initially Sarah's words were only for herself, and she didn't expect to share it, however as time went on, she found that through sharing her own experience she could help others, and particularly share a voice in Australia. She also shares other's through her blog The Pesky Placenta Society. ***Please be aware this episode conains a lot of discussion around pregnancy and birth trauma, perinatal trauma, PND, PTSD and a near death medical episode*** Sarah - Website / Instagram / Sarah's pre ecampsia story Podcast - instagram / website Downtown Abbey episode If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online, I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. And welcome to the podcast. It's so lovely to have you here for wherever you are around the world. Want to take this opportunity to remind you to subscribe to my weekly email. You'll be the first to hear about the upcoming episodes, who's on next week, and some other little gifts and discounts and other things that I'd like to share. Just head to the webpage Alison newman.net/podcast and you'll scroll down and see the signup sheet. This week. My guest is Sarah hens. Sarah is a blogger from the Blue Mountains in Sydney, New South Wales, and she's a mom of one. Sarah has a background as a social worker and has spent many years working in the department for Child Protection. Following a pregnancy that almost claimed her life Sara was compelled to record her own experiences with preeclampsia, preeclampsia and a tremendous birth trauma. She used her writing as a way to not only record what happened so she wouldn't forget at times being in the ICU and coming in and out of consciousness, but to work through her experience and to make sense of it. Initially, Sarah's words were only meant for herself. She didn't expect to share it. However, as time went on, she found that through sharing her own experience, she could help others and particularly share a voice from Australia. She also now shares other's stories through her blog that pesky placenta society. Please be aware this episode is quite full on. It does contain a lot of discussion around pregnancy and birth trauma, perinatal trauma, postnatal depression, PTSD, and a near death medical experience. I really appreciate Sara's openness and honesty in sharing in today's episode. Thanks so much for coming on. Sarah. It's lovely to meet you today. Thanks for having me. That's absolute pleasure. And I I have heard that this is your first podcast so it's exciting to have you all. Oh, don't be nervous. We just pretend it's you and me. We're just having a fun chat. With like literally 1000s of people listening. Not that many maybe. So good. So good fun. So we're about to finish Australia. I am on Derek country in the Blue Mountains in South Wales beautiful Yeah, yes. It's very lovely. I've been from Derek country my whole life so I was on a different different part in the Hawkesbury in the mountains gal. Beautiful I've never been a bit I've seen plenty of photos and yeah you neither is it the three sisters and we've got 45 minutes from there so I'm not going to lower like pretty much the first bit of the ego call Mountain is where it is and then there's lots more mountain often Yeah, right i Oh awesome. Oh lovely. That sounds like a nice place to live. So are you a fairway from Sydney? Where you are then? All the closer Yeah. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Do you go into Sydney much you have to go in? Often I was it was weird. So obviously with COVID we're all stuck you know for ages but I went to the opera house for two different shows like three weeks taught and I haven't been there for so long. I went there twice in one month so that was pretty good. I do love a city day because I don't really there I find the city very interesting and like you Yeah, I couldn't imagine living in a city. I mean, I've I mean Adelaide and and if you've ever been to Adelaide, but that's not exactly a proper city. It's like a bit country town. Basically, everyone chases Adelaide because it's yeah, it's easy to drive in. So it's not really a city. Fucking like a map of Sydney. No one knew literally, was the first place that any one job like anything. Yeah, yeah, they weren't, weren't considering the future when they made Sydney. Really were they, too but yeah, that's nice for a visit. I haven't been there for a long time. But yeah, nice for trip. But I would hate to live in a place like that. I just, it's not my thing. I like a bit of space around me. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, so you by trade, a social worker? When did you first get into that sort of thing? Was it something you're always interested in? Being when you're growing up? Not professionally, I think I have been like a little social worker from the beginning. My mom actually said years like after I decided to actually study it. She was like, I knew you were going to be that because I was just always that person that like the kids at school that are having my mom and dad were having issues or, you know, they'd always come and find me and like be crying in the bathroom. So via without me for a long time, but actually going into it because I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was never one of those people that was like, Yes, I'm going to be a doctor or a teacher. And then I remember when I was looking at different degrees, I thought, Okay, this sounds pretty broad. Like, I feel like I could make this work in lots of different areas. And then as I did my best placement was with in child protection. And I love that, which sounds weird, because it doesn't sound like a sort of job you should love. You know, actually, I can relate to that, because I work on the other side of it in early childhood education. Yeah, I have actually great admiration for what you guys do on the other side, I could definitely not do it myself. So yeah. It's definitely a job that makes or breaks you for sure. Sometimes you're not really sure where it's going. But I did my placement there. Did another placement overseas. And I thought, yeah, this is a job that I want to do. So I was there for nearly six years before I went on that week. Actually resigned my position a couple of months ago, because the circumstances surrounding my birth left me with some more pressure issues that it's no surprise child protection does not help your blood pressure. Stay down. Yes, sort of gave that out recently, which feels still, it doesn't feel real. Like I still can't believe I'm not going back. But yeah, social work can take me anywhere. So I know that I have heaps of options and lots of experience now. So I'm excited to see where I am. Yeah, not good on yeah, like I said, I think what you guys do on that other side, oh, my god, like I, I quit, I was working in a law firm, just before I decided to completely change and go into child childcare and early childhood education because I was finding out things about things happening in my town that I didn't want to know about. Like, I'm, I'm a very sensitive person, and I find it hard not to take on other people's emotions and situations and experiences. So you know, I'd be sitting there typing, affidavits of people who are coming through the court system for, for doing horrible things to children and young people. And I thought I can't I can't keep doing this. And I said to my husband, I need to I need to help the children. Like in my mind, it was like help the children he's like, but you are helping the children and you're putting their perpetrators to court, you're contributing to that process. Like no, but I need to have my hands on the children like I just had this feeling I needed to be able to hold the children and you know, pick up stuff and reports and do that sort of stuff rather than, you know, the real hardcore stuff, which I'm just not cut out for at all. Because I mean, I honestly like I look at people that are in education, and I just think you have the patience of a saint. I'll protect the kids but after them skills, I think knowing where you fit is so important because you know, otherwise you're just forcing a job you hate and then if you think it's really cool perspective to early childhood, like most people just kind of love little kids and love working with them but I think bring a bit of an extra skill to it. Kind of having seen We're helping kids don't? Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, it really, it really makes your days so much more focused and more productive. Because a lot of people have an idea that childcare and I mean, it kindy at the moment is literally sitting on the floor playing with kids all day. Like, they think it's just some, like fancy way out of doing nothing. And so oh my gosh, like, no, like, people come in and do work experience or the they do their placement and they just go oh, it's not what I thought it was gonna be like, it is really demanding work and physically but also emotionally and mentally. You know, you're focusing on these little people and it's not just, I don't know, it's, it's such a broad scope of what you're looking at, for this child. Like this do the same job as you I'm just hearing the amount of just the admin side of it. Yeah, that's writing individualized notes for each child. And every day I'm gonna be like, favorite anything otherwise apathetic parent ever. Did you have lunch? Great, great. Good. Like I'm, I'm in awe of people that can keep up with that. Like, it's just not what I'm seeing, you know, she makes all her little activities and stuff you're taking and there's so much passion that goes into teaching kids question that I do not have. Very impressed. It's interesting how it all fits together, isn't it? How we will play a little cards and yeah, now good Anya, I really have a lot of admiration for you guys story. I first discovered you on Instagram, with your very awesome named account the pesky placenta society, which is brilliant. Can you tell me how you came up with that day? So it was it was not my first one. I was actually thinking today. I will come with the page like and I looked at some of the graphics I did in the beginning. Ugly. I had. Yeah, I had another name initially. And that was like part of one of my favorite quotes, which I still love. But you know, it wasn't mine. And I think as the space started to grow, and you know, people actually seem to care about what I was. I thought, No, I want to I want to move forward as something that's just me. And from the beginning of my pregnancy, I had the anterior placenta, which is at the front, so I would always call it pecky. Because it meant that I couldn't feel as much movement. I had so many trips to the hospital being like, oh, my gosh, and then the second thing had gone who'd be like, Connie told my Microcenter pesky from from day one. But then I ended up diagnosed with preeclampsia. So it became like, super speed as pesky as it can be. And I think that having a I was worrying people would think I was making light of it, that sometimes I do, like, that's just how I am. And I think it's quite the and it's weird. And that's, that's me. Yeah, absolutely. You know, there are so many people out there that not just for vanity reasons, there's so many issues you can have with your placenta. It's just a fun little way of honoring the journey. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love it. I think it's really cool. Because I think, I mean, there's so many people out there, everyone's got a different way of dealing with or processing issues and an account that might be really clinical and crisp and coming at it from a, you know, medical area, whatever, that might not see everybody, you know, like I I sort of have a joke when I talk about my placenta, that it's been pesky as well. It's sort of had a I don't know what the official name is. I've been trying to find it but it basically the blood flow was compromised from about 28 weeks. So then that meant that the baby didn't develop. And basically he stopped growing was dental insufficiency. Placental insufficiency. Yeah. So I sort of make a joke about that myself because my son when he was born, he was four pound 14. But he was completely formed, you know, he had his lungs were formed, everything was developed. He was all there. But he was just really tiny. He had no fat on him. He come out like looking like a skeleton rabbit. Like these tiny things, and you could see his diaphragm like when he was breathing like you could see every little muscle and everything inside him. So when people were still here quite little now. And they'll say, oh, yeah, he's a little little tack here. And I'll just say, oh, yeah, my plus Cena kind of stuff working. You know, I say it is a bit of a joke like. So yeah, I can appreciate where you're coming from. I mean, it's good. I think it's good to share in that way do you want to share a little bit more about that experience for you finding out you had that anterior placenta and sort of how things progressed from that point? Yeah, so um, well, I looking back now I had high blood pressure from like the beginning of my pregnancy, because life was quite stressful, and I got pregnant and stayed. So for probably about half the pregnancy to similar things happening in life. So I was pretty frequently stuck in hospital for the blood pressure profiles, or they can be there for like three or four hours and check it. So I was used to that. And preeclampsia is something that like, it was mentioned when I booked in, because they run through the symptoms, just keep an eye out for these. But I didn't, they never really went through what it was what would happen like, anything like that. So I knew it existed, I knew it was serious, I knew I needed to look out for it. And I, on the anxious side of the spectrum. I was constantly worried. I mean, really, pregnancy just amplifies any mental health that you have what in my experience. So I was constantly, you know, panicking, that I was gonna get sick or something. And all that kind of thing. And then when I started to actually get symptoms, you know, I was going, Oh, my gosh, like, am I just making a big deal out of this? Because I'm anxious, or is this really a thing and, you know, every appointment, I've run all this stuff by the obese, and I wasn't seeing the same person consistently, because I was just booked into public hospital. And towards the end of the pregnancy, I stepped on weight really fast, which is another symptom because you start to swell, and you get the edema and all that. But the conversation sort of turned to like trying to make me go to an obesity clinic instead. And this is not the same, like, I know what's healthy and what's not. And I wasn't in like the peak of fitness. When I got pregnant, I'll be the first one to acknowledge that this was different, like it was just so quick. And I had all these other things. Like in all the great times the symptoms, there was only one or I didn't in the end. And so I just didn't feel like I was being taken seriously. And I went to a different hospital, which has been more focused on women's health. And they're the high risk hospital for a huge geographical area. And so I went in and I was diagnosed that day. And I was there for about a week. My blood pressure still is an extreme, like, every doctor I see. They're like, that's not possible. And then my son was born rather than 35 Lakes, I got very sick very quickly and died. And I actually went into the realm of fantasy, which is where you start to see ease. So that happened literally a few minutes after they came and checked me. So the timing was all just perfect. And yeah, so it was all very fast and scary. And and yeah, just crazy. And I think it took me a long time to reassess what had happened. But that sort of then led me to this world of perinatal trauma and the online space has been so helpful, remain silent, not anyone literally in my personal life who's had a similar story. Lots of people like to tell you, they know how you feel when they actually do it. Yeah. And it's always well mannered, but it's not the same. And so, yes, trauma, you own that, but it's not the same. And so I think finding people who could say actually, oh, my gosh, that happened to me. And there's so many intricacies in processing your trauma that I think a lot of people generalize. When you find someone who can be like, No, I had that exact thought like it's just really, it's comforting and it makes you feel like you're not crazy. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And I think too, like I've been left with lifelong problems like I will be on blood pressure medication till I die. We which is more likely to be from like a heart attack now. And, you know, there's just so many things that preeclampsia makes you vulnerable to forever. So it's, it doesn't end with the birth. I think for some people it does, and that's great. But for me, you know, I'm in that sort of tiny categories, people who just another gonna have normal blood pressure. And that's still something I'm cranky on some days. But it's easily manageable. I think it's just another thing that I have to think about now. And you become a parent, like your brain is just going 100 miles an hour as it is, and then you've got to try and remember your own health, which it doesn't come first anymore. So that's what like, I have to have reminders on my phone, like to take a pill and I've never had to do that before, but it's just how my brain works now. Yeah. That's a real, like, brief summary of it. I mean, I have the whole story typed up for people to read on my website. But yeah, sure. Yeah. That's probably the quickest I can summarize what happened. Yeah, that's interesting. You know, this, the preeclampsia, I was the same like people would mentioned. And so yeah, watch out for this wherever. But it was almost like a passing comment. And it wasn't explained that if this did happen, then this this, this would happen. And we'd have to do this, this and this, like, it was just really general. And I think I knew one girl that had to get induced because she had it. But it was like, I didn't really ever understand what it was. And then when you're saying there about, you basically went from preeclampsia to actual preeclampsia. And then it's the thing that now you're dealing with for the rest of your life. I actually didn't know that. So yeah, I'm pleased that you sharing misinformation, because learning suddenly, your clients your side of things is not, I mean, it's not as common like pregnancy as a five to 8% of all pregnancies. So it's like not a lot, but also a lot of when we think of how many pregnancies there are a very small percentage of that. And I think, on paper, I don't think they would have diagnosed me with that, because it sort of started to happen as they were delivering him. So I think they managed to sort of stop it in time, but I did. So it was like my bottom haul, started seizing change. It was like I was trying to do setups like that I couldn't control it. But that's not like talks about the only thing I knew was there's like an episode of Downton Abbey where one of the characters dies from eclampsia. thing that we're talking about? So like it's really not like preeclampsia in and of itself isn't talked about. But then for the people who have that next step. It classier like it's even more quiet. So I try to be as honest as I can just because people need that, like, I need your help. I'm gonna do this. Yeah, I'm very open book. Yeah. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. It's wonderful. It's wonderful. I often say that. It's like, the people that are capable of sharing. It's not like, it's not like yeesh you've obliged to do it, or you have to do it. But it's good. If you can do it for the people that can't share necessarily. So I love that you can do it. And yeah, thank you for doing just on that. Was that. Was that Sybil? Did she have preeclampsia? Yeah, yes. Yeah. So they, I watched the episode. After, I think my son was a few months old. I was watching through it again. And I was like, okay, like, I can do this. But oh my gosh, like the whole I just cried and cried the whole way through. Because I think I have these moments where, like, I just realized, oh, man, I'm gonna cry now. I just realized how close I was like, and that's such a scary thought and watching it, you know, in a big show with all these famous people, like it was just a bit surreal kind of going, Oh, my gosh, that was me. I mean, obviously, in the show, she passes away, and there's a lot of people that do and, and I was so close to that. And so I think the feeling of getting that close, and then coming back is like its whole own category of using being as open as I can about it. Because I know that no matter how stupid I think authority is or how dark it might be, like someone else out there has either had it or is having it right now. And I think that's you gotta have people who can go like, you know, with, you know, crazy, you know, what processing looks like is what trauma does to our brains. Yeah. Trauma is my bread and butter. Like that's what Yeah. And so I know it very intimately on an academic level. I'm personally but then I sort of have these two halves of my brain where, literally, we have two halves. It was sort of like a kid is the emotional side, it's freaking out. And you know, what's happening? I don't know who I am anymore. And then there's the logical brain, my brain like we studied this, we know this. We know what's gonna happen next. Hobbs that we're constantly surprising each other, indicating very well. So he was very strange going through that, like knowing trauma as much as I do. And that's when it's you. All bets are off. Like, it's just totally different when you're the subject of it. So, yeah, yeah, I think there's a lot, a lot of sort of niche stuff, I guess that I can relate to the people. And in the context, like the preeclampsia world, and the perinatal Tron world online is so dominated by the US, which is not a bad thing. Like, they have a lot of people. But I think it's really nice when you can find someone that understands your culture, and your geographical context, and our health system is different. And like all that sort of thing. So I think it's been nice to be able to slot into that space. That was kind of empty. And obviously, there are a lot of survivors and stuff that have accounts, but I think that's more about just their, their life and that kind of thing. Whereas I wanted something that was more open to help people have a space to be like, Oh my gosh, this happened to me, and it sucked. So yeah, I always get very excited when I find other creators. Yeah, for sure. We are literally in comparison to the rest of the world. So I think it's nice that this space is growing in a way that is relatable and accessible to everyone. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. When did you decide that you wanted to share this with others and create this account and get it out there? When was that sort of, in your mind, I started so writing has always not always, but as an adult, I suppose it's been my outlet. And I've never really thought of myself as an autistic person, I think of myself as a creative person. And in my head, they're different things. So I, I was that 2023. So 10 years ago, I was very chronically disliked mystery illness. So I used writing to kind of express that to people because it's really hard to just like sit and talk environment about what's going on. And I found that to be really helpful just for me to get my thoughts out, but also to be able to give them to other people and be like, This is what I'm trying to say. And so from there, you know, I do a few little topical EcoLog stuff over the years about different social justice issues or, or things like that. And then you know, that kind of stopped his life got busier and, and then when my son was born, and I got really sick, I actually started writing it down just to try and remember what happened because neurologically impaired, but also, so called fentanyl, which is a really heavy duty, because they had to start my C section before the anesthetic studying. So he was like, I'm gonna pump you with as much as I can. So I was really out of it for several hours in and out of consciousness in the ICU. And so when I woke up like in the postnatal ward, I was like, I have no idea what just happened. And it's just in flushes coming back to me, I started to just jot those down, knowing that at some stage, I was going to need to write it out properly, and you know, make it sound nice. And then as I did that, like, I didn't have the intention of publicly sharing it. I think I was going to share it like with some close friends and family and just kind of Yeah, there was so much like, particularly the postpartum period as well, like there's so much that I could have verbalized that I could write about. And so I had planned to share it with some and then a few ladies in my life who are midwives and community nurses that I knew who were were very lovely and cared for me very well. After my son was born, and they were like this is get this would help people like if you share this, it would help someone. Yeah, and I just thought you know what, like, on the off chance that there is one person raised there goes and goes, oh my gosh, like, and has that moment that I had reading all the stories? You know, it's what, like, it's worth the vulnerability is that what you say? And experience could help another person start to heal. And I thought, Okay, I'll just do it. And it was lovely. Like literally the day that I started the account, I got a message from someone on the Central Coast in New South Wales. Oh my gosh, like you're the first person in Australia that I've come across who has had a story that's a bit like mine. And I was just so like, it was just the nicest thing to hear obviously, not that they went through that. I know. What I wanted happens, like so fast. And and that's been, it's really been twofold. Like, it's helped me get a lot of stuff out that I needed to, but it's also helped a lot of people start to do that for themselves. And that's just, yeah, it's been really helpful. For me, I think having something to occupy my mind when you're stuck with, you know, a feed or a nap or whatever it is, like having something I can focus on, and still have that best that's beyond just being a mom like that. That's so important to me in a way that I didn't see coming. Like I expected to just be so in love with motherhood, and then it happened. And I was like, this is not what's in the movies. Yeah. So I think having this has been really like, salvation. For me, I think for my mental health, but just having something to do, like, you know, you just feel so the immobile sometimes as a stay at home parent. Having having an outlet to still create and share and stuff has been essential for me. Yeah, and it's led me to some really lovely people. So that's always a bonus as well. Yeah. And on that. I noticed on your, your web, your web page that you share stories from other mums? Yeah. And did that start to happen fairly quickly? Or is that something that you sort of happened as you went along? Meeting people and stuff. I think that wasn't like, an intention that I have, in the beginning, it sort of organically happened, I think. And not just about like people with preeclampsia. Like, there's so many things that I'm passionate about, like, as a social worker, you care about a lot of things. You know, there's not really a topic that I'm not happy to share. But I just started with, like my sister's story, you know, she had pregnancy loss, and then had my nephew on Christmas Eve, and had a really difficult postpartum period. And so he wrote that up. And, you know, the more I sort of started sharing, the more I thought, there's so many things that are just like, what I went through that someone else is sitting there going like, Okay, I didn't have preeclampsia, but I had a miscarriage, it stopped. So I think I like to keep it fairly open. And I know like, all the advice you get with like social media is assigned a nation stick to it. And it was like, there's too many things. Like, I looked at some other accounts that have these beautiful, like, stains with the colors. And you know, that one's spotty. And that one's got flowers. And I just thought pink, so I thought I might as well be like that with my website. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. So I think it's really cool. Like the amount of people who hoo do contact me and go, like, I want to, I don't know where to start, like, so at first, it was just sharing stuff that people had already written out. But now it's kind of at a, you know, guiding people through that. And that's been a real privilege to, you know, sit with someone, well sit with someone online, and kind of help them say what they want to say in a way that fits who they are, and their experience, and just the excitement and the emotion that they have in their story going out there. And, like, it's just so special when someone comes to me and says, like, I've never shared this before, but I really want to, and that's just beautiful. Like, it's a connection that, you know, I've never had in any other way. Yeah, so it's been great. And there's just so many people in my own life that I think like your stories and people need to hear it. Yeah. So I do not have nagged a few people. But it's great for them. Like I love seeing other people have that moment of like, okay, people hear my story, and I take it seriously. And, you know, my story has value. And yes, yes, storytelling is like the ancient form of communication. And I think we lost that a little bit over time. And so I think, sort of stepping back into that has been more emotional than I expected. And just an honor, like I always just feel so privileged when somebody trusts me with that, like, it's a really big responsibility. So I do take it very seriously. Yeah, that's lovely. I think people can sometimes think that what they've got to say isn't a value because they don't hold a status in society, or because they don't have 100,000 followers or, you know, because whatever reason people can sort of, what's that? That? Yeah, they can, they can really diminish the value of the, of what they've got to say, and it's even people that I've had on this on this podcast over the years, they are I'm not creative, I'm not good enough. I'm not whatever it's like, I can see that you are, you know, I'm not telling you, you know, I'm not going to force people, you know, you have to be on the show. And just give people a bit of time to think about it, like to support them. And then people will come back to me and go, actually, yes, I would like to come on, you know, and that's like, yes. Like, I feel like, I want you to see yourself as we see, you know, like, you have so much to add and even someone the other day, just as are wrapping up the episode that like, I hope that was okay, I feel like I, what I've got to say isn't isn't good enough, or isn't big enough. It's like, seriously, like, I like you sit with someone for an hour or an hour and a half. And you just take, like what they've got to say so valuable. Like I just I want people to feel like empowered that they have a space and they have, they have people that will find value in what they have to say, you know, absolutely, people. We are our own worst critics as women. We're taught to believe that we need to be bigger and better than we are. And so I do it myself all the time. Like, I second guessed everything I look at even stuff like my life story, like Medically speaking, I should be dead. Like I survived something that even my specialists couldn't make sense. So, like I know that to be and still understand. Oh, it's not interesting. You know, we played Dan Brown it was actually your, like, you know, your list of things that you talked about on the podcast? Yeah. Yeah. So when I read through that, and there's the whole section on McGill, and I was just like, I mean, I've been reflecting on that so much, because I think I had this realization of like, obviously, I can relate to mom guilt, but it's just this extension of like, woman guilt that I've had my whole life. And, you know, a Carlin's like yeah, I've been a bit obsessed with that idea, since I read that a few weeks ago, and I just thought, oh my gosh, like, so much mental energy goes into being a woman that, then is exacerbated as a mother because there's all these expectations on you. And no, we really have this like, No, I'm not enough of the stuff that I should be in a hole, but I'm too much of stuff. And we have this contradiction that we just sit in all the time. And yeah, like, just my own experience happened. And I still doubt it. Like, I went through, like, medical evidence that it happened, and I still kind of feel maybe I'm just making a big deal. But like, I shouldn't even deal with it. Because that's what it is. And that's the same of any story. Like anything that's happened to you is important and relatable, and I'm trying so hard not to or to challenge I guess that that little voice that I have of like, got to make sure everything's perfect. Why? Yeah, yeah, Little did you know that your email like unleashed this whole war. I'm so pleased. And my work here is done. Exactly. Then I read the rest of your list as I got to my mind. It really did make me think about like, how I where I placed my value as a mom and just as a person. And how much subtle stuff there is out there telling us what we need to be like I'm well and truly good enough for my son and I know that but I still you know, I don't know how many times a day I convinced myself that's not true. Particularly because like my postpartum, I did not like my baby for a solid two months of his life. And that still makes me feel horrible to say out loud. But it's true like I was so like wrecked from everything that happened and separated from him, you know, I didn't get to meet him for 24 hours. But even then my brain just doesn't when other people have to wait more than that, like some people have to wait a week. You trying to justify Yeah, I still didn't meet my babies for 24 hours. And so I think that really affected the way that I make sense of it is that it affected my ability to bond to him, because even though I didn't meet him, like I met him the next day or the next night, and then I was still in the ICU a day or so. And then I was on a different word to him because he was in special care. And like I say, session was so fast that I could barely walk like it was yeah, you know, I find out how long other sections went for. And I think Oh, my God, mine was not that long, like, so it was very rough. And like, physically, I was quite damaged. I mean, nothing was wrong, but it was just super and yeah, so it was, it was a full week, like until we went home. And then, you know, I had this tiny human, and I just look at him and be like, I don't want to feel these things for you. And I don't. And so that was like a whole journey. And I think that really affected how I could view myself as a mom, because in my head, I was like, what sort of doesn't like me, like, what sort of mom doesn't want to spend time with her baby, you know, because we get told this beautiful view of motherhood, which it can be like, I have those feelings now of just joy. And you know, I look at him and I want to eat him. And but when you don't have that, from day one, I think the world sort of wants you to believe that there's something wrong with you. And there was something wrong with me that was completely out of my control. And I needed a lot of help. But that didn't make me a bad mom, you know, I met his needs, and that sort of thing. So I think going into motherhood that way, it really, really made that voice very loud. That told me that I wasn't enough of this. I was too much of that my son doesn't. Like all that kind of thing was so loud for the first little while of his life. And thankfully, you know, therapy and medication has made that voice much more quiet. But it's still there. And I think that's what sucks thing a woman like that voice is always in the back of your head kind of telling you that it's your fault, or you need to do this and you need to Yeah, you haven't done good enough or you haven't done the right thing. Yeah. I think women have the role. We are given the role of making sure everything's great. We get no credit for that. And then if something goes wrong, we get blamed for that. Yes, it's like an impossible task. Isn't it? Like, you're set up to fail right from the start? Yes. Yeah. I even tried to do an experiment last week. I was like, You know what, because I can't be the only one that's done this. I bumped into like a chair, my ankle, like get the chair like and I apologize. Yeah. What? I just apologize for pieces. Like that's how brainwashed I've been to believe that. Everything is my fault just for existing. I was like, You know what, I'm gonna do an experiment in the next 24 hours. I'm going to count how many times I apologize. Not so like stuff because I've actually done wrong, but just as apologies that we make, like, as an instinct. I couldn't keep up not because there was heaps, I just, it's so natural in my brain to be like, I'm so sorry I exist, that I couldn't count them. And I thought that's so sad. Like, it's so sad. My husband doesn't have that problem ever. Like, I've never seen him apologize to a chair. I've seen any man apologize to a chair. So I think like there's so much work for me to do, but it's exhausting that I have to do. And then like trying to do all of this at the same time as being a mom like, oh, yeah, we have a lot on our shoulders and no one you can't see it. It's there. And yeah, I just think the more honest we can be about motherhood the good guy, but I don't think we just need to focus So on the yucky parts, but everyone has yucky parts. And if we pretend that we don't we just, we do such a disservice to each other as women, and as moms by convincing ourselves that we need to be perfect. And, you know, so I am so grateful to have found, I think, a community of people who are all trying to be really honest about the crap, because we're all gonna have it, you know, we'll all have the great times too. But I think we need each other, to be really honest about how hard it can be to transition into parenthood, and then to stay there like, yeah, yeah. And then all those stages that come through, you know, like, it's brought up, and then they change. And it's like, yeah, you're just constantly learning from scratch. And so I think, yeah, I think stay at home parents are like the backbone of society. Podcast, honestly, that that is another group of people I have so much respect for, because I couldn't do it, I literally couldn't do it, I think I have a certain amount of minutes in my day that I can be completely focused on my children. And then I've got to go do something else. Because it's like, my brain just doesn't have the capacity for that. I need that outlet, I need something for me. But I feel like the patriarchy and that system that's been set up, it encourages us to compete against each other, you know, it's pits us against each other, she's doing this, or I can do this, blah, blah, and what you're saying, I totally 100% agree with, like, sharing what's real, sharing the challenges and saying, It's okay, we all have crap times, you know, like, I'm, I'm getting so good. Now, it just, you know, laughing about the fact that my kids can't find their shoes in the morning. Like, it's just, you know, it's we never, ever really sprays morning, and that's what life is. And then also, you know, being kind to myself and going, you're not going to You can't expect this, like TV or Hollywood version of life. You know, I found that really tricky. with mine, having both my boys by never had a spontaneous, like going into labor. So I never got that moment of oh, my waters broken down the street or, you know, like, the on the on the telly. And never, I never had a normal, normal. I'll put that in air quotes, because that's such thing as normal, but a straightforward birth without complications. I've had one that was born in an hour and a half, and one that was born by emergency C section. And you have these images in your mind of what's going to happen when the baby's born, they put it on you, and this happens, and you go home and everything's, it's like, it's bullshit. It's just setting you up for trouble and failure in your mind. Because that's not life. It's not real. So the more we can tell each other, that what is happening to us is normal, and his life and things are gonna go wrong. And things aren't always gonna go the way we expect. And the better, we'll all be, I think, absolutely. You have your dream book. And this is something that actually my therapist, that's me, I think, you know, first session, I was very lucky that I was able to get into see a perinatal trauma therapist who actually knows what she's talking about. And she said, You know, I see a lot of women like me that have bursts that are just horrendous, but I also see a lot of women who have the birth that they wanted, and still were left feeling traumatized by something. And so like, you know, I believe that women can birth and they can do it safely, and they can do it freely. But I also believe there are a lot of us that even if all goes to plan, we're still gonna walk away traumatized, and that's okay. And yeah, I just thought, oh my gosh, you think about like, like, just the baby blues, the hormones and my when my sister was about to have the baby, I said to her, I was like, isn't gonna make sense now. But it will was like those first two weeks, you're going to feel like the world is ending and that it never going to change. But it will like it just will when you hit that sort of two week mark, and you're home and settle down, like, the fog will pass and be able to see everything again. So remember that first time, she was like, What am I done? I don't know what I'm doing, like, everything's wrong, and it's never gonna get better. I was like, I told you this was gonna happen. I was like, it's predictable. And sure enough, within a fortnight, she's like, Oh, this isn't so that. Things like that, where we try and we make this sort of beautiful newborn bottle that. I mean, some people have gone yeah, but a lot of us don't like I feel like more people struggle than not. And, you know, we shouldn't be honest about that. Because otherwise we make parents who just feel like they're broken from day one. Yeah, yeah, there's something wrong with you. Yeah, it sucks because it's like there's something inherent about you that's wrong. And that's had like fighting that and challenging that is It's a lot of mental work and needs to go daily to keep alive. Like, yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's all encompassing. Yes, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. When you said before about not having that sort of the connection with your son a little bit of time, I wanted to say something about that, but I'm not sure how to word it. And I don't want to keep talking about myself, because this isn't my show. But what it is, but you know what I mean, it's not my special episode. So I'm conscious of that. So I might, but I'm sort of trying to lead into it with it. I had an experience where I was because of this the second child emergency C section, I was so and I might be a little bit selfish, but I was thinking, I have to heal, right, my body has been cut open, how many other layers you go through, it's the most invasive surgery you can have. You know, and then I'm not allowed to lift things. I'm not allowed to drive. So I can't you know, I'm physically bound to my home. I couldn't really walk that well. Like, I was still recovering from that. And I thought, No, I'm expected to take care of this baby. And I thought this is bullshit. You know, how is this right? And I was quite, I guess, resentful. Probably the right word. So I found it difficult to sort of be all in, in this happy bubble land of baby because it was like, hang on a second. What about me? Yeah, you know, and then I thought, I can't say that, because it's all about the baby. You know what I mean? Did you? Yeah, I think because my therapist asked me outright, she was like, Do you blame your son for what happened? Like, do you because I was talking about this, like, I don't feel anything like, I know that I'm supposed to be all mushy and love him more than anything. And I don't feel it. And she was like to blame him for getting sick and nearly dying. And I could honestly say, No, what I did blame him for was taking all of that time. And I couldn't focus on healing myself, like that. I felt like every time, you know, I'd need to do something. And not just like, medical appointments, because I don't want to have appointments. So appointment to do for the first two weeks of his life. So obviously, I had to go to those. But every time I wanted to pay, he'd start crying. And I'd be like, Oh, my gosh, I can't even go to the toilet without failing you as a parent. And so I did, I have a lot of resent, I think towards him. Not, I don't know, because that sounds like a strong word. But that's what it was. You know, I just I looked at him. And I'd be like, because of you I can't be okay. That's just that was my reality at the time. And thankfully, you know, I have a husband who loves being a dad, and, you know, spent the first week being really the sole parent. And he took that on and has just run with it, you know, from day one, and not everybody has that. So I'm very blessed in that way. I had a mom who was at my house every day, you know, to do all the chores, like, you know, I have my little village that and I still was like that I need to be me again. That was like, I think after you have any kind of traumatic birth, figuring out who you are, is hard. Because you can't go back to what you were not who you want to be yet. You're just this like in between person that you don't recognize. And then you have this little squealing child that you know needs. They're relentless, relentless, and they should be exposed today. But when you're in that space of trying to just like survive, it's sort of the last thing that you need. And so I did, I felt really like a lot of that struggle to attach to him was because he was the barrier at the same time and overcoming that is difficult. And I had lots of support, and I still struggled. So there are a lot of people out there and it may be gave me so much respect for the families that I've worked with in the past. I was like, you know, the fact that like, your kid is five and like, I'm only hearing you that now it's like this is not so stressed that I was under with every possible support I could want. Yeah, it really made me realize who was in my corner. So that was a good thing, but I definitely you know, I'd look at this perfect little face and I'd be like yeah, and that just felt like I felt like a monster. I felt like some awful like, troll that had crawled out from under the bridge and like hated the baby. But like that Here's how I felt, I felt like I was on my own. I felt like, I'd made this huge mistake and brought this child into the world that I didn't want. And that, you know, I really felt like I never would like I'd look at, you know, moms loving their kids. And I'd be like, how do you do? Like, I don't have that, and I want that. And I did get there. But, you know, two months is a long time really, when you think about how much I had to do to get to that point. So it's just yeah, I think it feels like it goes against our nature as women to say out loud, like, I do not like my baby. And that is that we have to stay in, because people feel that way. Like, and that's what I mean, like, you can care for a child and meet all their needs and still not have that joy. And that's okay. Yeah, yeah. One day might not be swimming, but it happens slowly. And thankfully, I got there in time. I needed to have that space to heal. Like, I don't think I think I'd still be struggling if I didn't have the ability to prioritize like it was a bit of a weird silver lining of a traumatic birth was that I could leave him with people. And know he was okay. You know, I know so many moms that who have that beautiful oxytocin rush at birth, who they'd be thinking about their baby nonstop and your brains. Our brains are supposed to be wired that way. Right? And so and I just be like, yeah, that's, yeah, that's a good point, actually. Now you say it, I feel felt the same way. But I hadn't really put my finger on it. Cuz he, he, as soon as you know, he was born, he was whisked off to the little box thing they put him in to keep them warm. And he was also given formula. And that was like a weight off of my shoulders. Because not all on me anymore. I am like, the biggest formula fan. In the world, I literally had no choice because my milk never came in. But I was so desperate diversity, and again, fell to the mother because I couldn't. But formula meant that I could recover. But I could leave who was my husband and I could have four nights of sleep. Like, it just gave us something that I don't think we could have had. I addressed it. And honestly, if I have another one, I don't think I even want to try breastfeeding because I was traumatized by the process of it not working. But I actually reflecting not that long ago, and I this is one of those things, I'd totally forgotten that. That sort of really emphasized my, where I was sitting in terms of like, not having a lot of emotion for my baby. I took him for a six week noodles. And my sister was with me and you know, the nurse was like, giving me all this prep on like, you're gonna be really distressed because he's gonna cry and it's gonna upset you. And I said, No, I'll be fine. She was like, No, really, like, everyone says that and then they burst into tears. So just be ready. And in my head, I was like, I don't care. Like, I don't care if he cried. And then he did. He started crying. And she looked at me and she was like, patting my arm. She's like, he's okay. And I literally looked her in the eye and I won't be sad, worse. And she just raised her eyebrows and I can see what's happening. My sister's sitting there with tears pouring down and she's like, just sitting there so indifferent. I completely forgot that happened. And my sister the other day, she was like, Yeah, you would not okay. Yeah, yeah. That's how I felt like I listened to him cry, and I felt nothing. And like, I was just what happened? I can't change it. And, you know, it didn't mean that I didn't care about him or like, I think I was. I did a lot of distancing, I think because I was just expecting to die like at any moment, I was not real panic of you know, it's not over yet. Because preeclampsia you can develop up to six weeks after you have a baby. So yeah, so you can have postpartum preeclampsia or help syndrome or pregnancy, which are like the sort of more severe versions. And so I knew that I was still in that time frame like I so I think I spent a long time trying not to get to know him because I thought if something happens to me like it's going to be harder for you. You to them not have a mom, like, you know, here's this big you didn't know what was happening. But that's how I was rationalizing. And so it was hard like trying to survive and care for a baby and still be yourself and find things that make you happy. And you just get bombarded with all of these things. I just need to rest, restaurants appearances is difficult. But I'm glad that I prioritized it because I think it gave me strength to then try and make the other things more positive or whatever. Yeah, but I mean, again, back to like, being a woman, resting is nowhere else. So even though I just been sliced open to my very core and back together really quickly, and you know, all that stuff. I was still like, no, like, I don't deserve rest. But, you know, that's just what I needed. So I think my body eventually just gave out and would just go to sleep, like at a moment's notice. You know, yes, my son had to wait, sometimes it meant that I could do it. And now, you know, I lost him. And I have all of those feelings that I wanted. And you know, that stuff came in time. It's hard, when the only stories that you're seeing and hearing are people that, you know, have that moment where they're on their chest, and they kiss the partner, and they have this beautiful golden hour. And, you know, and that's all you see, it's very hard to see your own experience as worth anything or real or, like, you just kind of look with envy, or these videos. Like, I still feel weird. I still feel weird seeing videos of, you know, moms that have their babies immediately placed on them, or like, I just instantly still feel jealous. You know, obviously, I would not wish my experience on anyone. But I, you know, I wanted that for me. And I didn't get it. And that was its own grief, like processing the loss of experience that I felt good about was a huge part of coming to terms. Yeah, yeah. What happens when your baby? Let's see, isn't it? And the thing that annoys me is like, people say, Arpit, women have been having babies for 1000s of years, blah, blah, blah, and it's like, but hang on a sec. So many things would have gone wrong over those 1000s of years. And I wanted to ask, and I don't know if this might be an insensitive question. So you can tell me to bugger off if you want to. But did you ever say that you sort of had any sort of feelings about when you talked before about being so close to death and surviving? Did you ever think like, imagine if I was, you know, in a third world country, or imagine if I was stuck at home, or you know how things would have gone 100% Particularly because preeclampsia I mean, the fatality statistics, the vast majority, like are in developing countries, because they don't have prenatal care and all that sort of thing. But even like, if I had done what my OB told me to do, I will be dead. If I had just gone home and relaxed and you know, not thought about it, and like, there's no way like I would have had a seizure at home, my blood pressure went insane. And then I would have died at home. Like it absolutely would have happened. So yes, that was on my mind, a lot like the timing of it was, was just, I see it as a miracle as someone who has faith, but like I said, when you have preeclampsia in hospital, they check your blood pressure, at least hourly. So it's very frequent. And mine was very unpredictable. So the medication wasn't really working. And so they were checking me super frequently. In the space of half an hour I went from like not concerning to our version of the code blue, which is called a map call. And that's where everyone runs in and they do all your tests. And, you know, within 15 minutes of that I started seizing 20 minutes later, my son was born and I was off to the ICU. So like the speed at which all of that happened. And like the fact that I was in hospital like I'm so proud of myself while listening to my gut instinct being like, Hey, I know you see the paranoid with your health, but let's go get checked in anyway. I yeah, I just thought and I still think so often of women who don't survive because they don't have access to what they need. To whether that's a medical professional or medication or whatever, like I think I was in the absolute best place I could have been when that happened. And even then it was a close call. So I marveled at the timing of everything and I just, my heart breaks every time I read a story about a mum, either a mum who dies or a baby like this preeclampsia can very quickly lead to placental abruption, which is very difficult for a little one to survive. And just a number of stories that I've read that sounds similar to mine, but they end with somebody passing away is heartbreaking. And, you know, regardless of what country you're in, but particularly for vulnerable women, you know, whether that's your racial background, or geographically where you live, like, there's just so much that factors into what kind of care you get. And like, I can't fault the kid that I had, like it was absolutely spot on and save my life. But yeah, the amount of people that don't have that is just so upsetting. And preeclampsia is just such a weird, like, no one knows why it happens. Like, it's still this big mystery that affects so many people, and particularly, you know, in developing countries, or even in some rural areas where you're really far away from your health care, I just think, oh my gosh, like if I even I was thinking about, like, I brought my mat lay forward because of my blood pressure. And I was like, I could have still been at work. Like, I could have still been, obviously, it was a Saturday. So, you know, wouldn't have been at work. But like that could have happened on a weekday, like the first day that I got really, really sick, was a Wednesday at lunchtime. And so I just couldn't stop thinking about like, the what ifs? What if person? Yeah, most anxiety people are, but I think I have to dwell on them a little bit. Like I have to give them some space to play out. Otherwise, they just played my mind. So you work through them? Yeah. There's so many aspects of my son's birth that I was like, Oh, my gosh, what is that? What is that? And thankfully, none of them came to pass. But yeah, it's very surreal, I think to look at what could have happened very easily what could have happened? And I'm reminded of that, because every time they see a doctor, they want to know, like, what happened to my blood pressure? And they looked at me like, I don't think you're right. Like, I don't think that's possible. And yet, yes, yes, it's possible because here I stand. So like, I get this reminder at every appointment, I thought there's no way you could have survived that. I think, I know, that's not like, as a yay, but it doesn't make me feel better. I hope to that in my lifetime, we see an answer to how to prevent it. Like, because that's what's scary about everything. Nervous gutters, and you can still get it. How do you? How do you? How do you fight that? I'm very passionate about and research and all that kind of thing now, on a witness just because, you know, I had everything I needed to know what it was. And it still took me by surprise. So the amount of people that you know, if they have a dodgy healthcare provider, or you know, there's so many things that could lead to you not not taking any notice, or just pregnancy being uncomfortable. Like there's so many symptoms of preeclampsia that you could just go oh, well, you know, I'm pregnant. So yeah, what I'm supposed to feel like shit. And like, sometimes. But I think like, yeah, it's just it's so important for women to trust themselves. Yes, yeah. We know that we know when we got feel good. And I can pretty much guarantee that everyone in the world, or at least in the developed world, will have a experience of trying to share something with particularly a male provider and being told like, no, that's not possible or like to go for a walk in assumption, or something like that when we're talking about a life threatening illness. That people can I walk away feeling dismissed. And then like within a week, I nearly died. That's a big deal. And the reason I didn't was because I went, you know what stuff you I'm gonna go and get it anyway. And 10 years ago, I wouldn't have had that, like, I wouldn't have had the confidence to trust myself. So, because we are taught to believe that what we think is less than why because of it, because we tell ourselves that we're just making a big deal out of nothing, but yet someone else knows better. So we couldn't possibly be right. To be like our own hype girl, like I'm getting, that's my goal is to try and be like, yes. I don't care if you can get stupid. Yeah, look this off. There was a post. I don't know how long ago I saw it on Instagram. It was basically people sharing their stories of times when, and this was in, in labor, particularly when they weren't listened to. And the amount of stories it was just appalling. And some of the outcomes were quite serious. And I mean, I didn't have it, I had a little a little moment like that, where by my like I said before, my son was born an hour and a half. And the he was my first delivery. And the doctor sort of joked I'll see you in 10 to 14 hours, you know, he went off to do a cesarean or something. And I literally felt within about half an hour that I felt like, I needed to push like, I felt like this, like I needed to do a poll. Basically, I described it as though there was a bowling ball coming out of my bottom. That's how it felt. And I said to the nurse, I feel like I've got a push. And she just looked at me with a shock on her face. And she she just she freaked out. And she went and got him. And he come in and he just went surely not like this. And I just thought you fucker. Anyway, he did an internal and he could feel the baby's head. I was like, Why don't you listen to us? We know what's going on in our bodies, like, Damn, you all makes us so cross. Yeah, it shouldn't be revolutionary for a doctor to believe that you're not feeling good. Like, literally your job. Guess to deal with sick people. So if I'm sitting here, whether that's I'm ready to push, or whether that's like, Hey, Doc, I've had a headache and dizziness for like two years, and I don't know what's wrong. Like, it's actually your job to listen to me and to believe me. And you know what my husband's never walked away from an appointment being made to feel like he doesn't know what's wrong. He just, he's always, I love him dearly. He's always like, just shocked when he hears these stories of like, this actually happened. Like I had an appointment once I went in, because I have it's a form of tinnitus, that like you can hear your heartbeat really loudly and it was getting me up at night, like I couldn't sleep. So it was really bad. And you know, because I don't trust doctors. Sometimes I Googled it. And I was like, Okay, this could be a brain tumor. So I should probably go check. I went into this doctor, I explained it. And he told me that I probably just need to drink more water. Oh, and then looked at my file and saw that I have PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome. And so she talked to me about that. And I said, I know like, I'm not managing that, like with my other doctor. I'm just here because I want to check that this isn't serious. And he proceeded to lecture me on my fertility for about 15 minutes, we really should start thinking about like trying to have a baby soon at this point. I was not with my husband, I was not in a place where I wanted to have a baby, or anything like that. And I was like, I just hear about my ear. Like, I'm here to talk to you about a noise in my ear. And you're trying to talk to me about my ovaries like this actually isn't any of your business, right? You're overstepping your boundaries. So much like energy has to challenge that in the moment. Like I think, again, experience I hear so often, including my own as women, as you sit in this appointment, just completely astounded at what you're hearing that the first time you try and challenge it, they shut it down. And it's like, you know what, whatever, like, do you speech? I'll go home. I'll Google it some more figured out. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we shouldn't have to resort to Google, we should be able to go to any doctor and say, Hey, these are my symptoms returned. What could it be? Yeah. And I think I look I've had these experiences with female healthcare providers to I think it's not just men but I immediately have like, my like antennas go up if I have to see a male doctor because I just my first ever experience that I was talking about at the start of this 10 years ago, I got Lyme disease when I was in America. Yeah, we don't have that here quote, unquote. So there's no testing for it. There's no anything so I was sick with this for nearly two years. But at the start of it, you know, I had all these symptoms. I went to a GP that I Just could get into. So I was 18 at the time, or sorry, just 19. So a baby, a baby with no backbone. And so I sat down and you know, they asked you if there's a possibility can be pregnant, which is fine, because they have to. And I said, No. And he came back to it. And he was happy. You sure? And I said, Yo, I've never been sexually active. So I'm pretty confident. And he literally he raised his eyebrows and said to me, I find that hard to believe. Ah, what do you say to that? Like, I dare anyone to say that to me now, like, with the amount of no crap given that I have now, you know, I hate him. But back then, like our baby, 19 year old with no self esteem. I just, I was like, What the heck. And that was my first experience of like, that feeling of going, okay, so you just think I'm crazy. Like you respect me at all. So I think like, it's it happens. It's real. And then, you know, fast forward to when I was pregnant. And I was being told that I needed to go to an obesity clinic at 33 weeks pregnant. And I was told, like, she told me I needed to lose weight. Like, these babies got another like kilo or two to go, like, in what way? Can I lose weight? She's like, What very least you can't gain any weight. I was like, Okay, again, my baby still got to like, chop out. Like, she was crazy. And what I mean, she was crazy. But it was just, it was mental. I was like, crying. So I was like, This is not like, you know, I had self esteem issues my way in anyway. I was like, Why? Why are we talking about this? You know, and then the next appointment, I was told all of these symptoms, just don't worry about it, you just need to relax more like enjoy your maternity leave. Can you just look at my flashing. That happened a week, I was gonna ask that actually, if any of these people you've come across again and be like, actually, I almost died. So get started, I haven't because I went, I switched hospitals. So I had like shared care with the high risk hospital. And that's where I ended up going because they had just completely redone. Like their birthing suites and everything and they have, it's really good. It's basically an emergency department, but for pregnant people. So I went there, because I was like, uh, you guys know, that I am trying to. And when I say trying to I mean, it's on my list and never at the top of my list, because maybe the Social Work team at the hospital, I burst that, like, open for feedback. So caliber long after your birth. And so I plan to have a meeting with them and just kind of go through. Because it's all in the same local health district. I can kind of point out like, Hey, can we have a look at like, who I saw at this thing, because they need to know that when I sat there, and I told them, that I had a headache, and that my vision was blurry. My right shoulder was hurting. And, you know, I was swelling up so much that like, I could push my finger in and it would just leave a dent like it was disgusting. And like all of that I was just told to relax and not to worry about it. And when you look at a list of symptoms of preeclampsia are all there like? So it's a matter of actual education? Like, I mean, I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a part of me that wanted to just be like, like, I nearly died, that. I also want them to do that. Like I wants to know that the next person they see that runs through everything that's happening. They don't just dismiss it and go, Oh, well, you know, you're pregnant, you're likely to be uncomfortable, you know? Yes, you're likely to be uncomfortable, but not to this extent. That's it. Yeah. So I do like, I'm quite passionate about health care providers, not just knowing more, because they know the symptoms. They know them, but seeing it and hearing it and actually taking it seriously. Yeah. Because you don't want to be the doctor that told someone they were fine. And not to worry about it. And then they die. And that's on you. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like your job is there to catch this stuff. And to help prevent it and manage it. And if you can't do that, then maybe find another job. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? I really saw and just the way that they were treated like I had one midwife, she was lovely. She had probably in the late 40s. And she was the first one to catch my blood pressure during the weird thing where it like split and went into opposite directions. And so she went and grabbed like one of the old days and here's a young, a young guy. He was so dismissive to her work when she was telling him what had happened. And he was like, No, that's not possible. And then he checked my blood pressure and I did the same thing. And then he went on like announced it to everyone because it was So interesting. Like, like, he'd found it. Cool. And I just like, looked at her and I was like, what just happened? And she just sort of rolled her eyes and she's like, Oh, young doctors, like they're all the same. And I was like, I know that like, still, you know, I'm watching this guy who looked younger than me, right? A woman with 20 plus years new recruit experience, or, you know, a new thing that he hadn't seen. And I was like, no, like, like, the midwives are the ones that I was crying on, and that were helping me like, try and walk after three days in an ICU. They were the ones helping, because my C section was so fast that by the time I got back to postnatal, they, they didn't even have time to wake me up, like I was still covered, like, in my blood is disgusting. And so like, you know, I was grossed out by that. But obviously, midwives they've seen everything so gentle and calm and and like, the doctors would come in for 30 seconds every day and be like, yeah, right, by, you know, but the midwives, they were the ones that like I hadn't read, like, who the one who respected them that call. She came and visited me three days after, like, interface, Natal, or just check in and I was like, That's so nice. Like, I know that I could go and find the doctor and he wouldn't have a clue who I was he wouldn't days ago. So I think there's yeah, there's at every level, women are really disadvantaged and made to believe that we don't know what we're talking about. We actually make the world go round. Absolutely. Oh, my gosh, she could not have said it better. I feel like sometimes, like if we just went on strike, what would happen to the world? You know, if we just went up not doing it anymore, you guys sorted out countries have successfully passed some pretty significant legislation because women go on a sex strike. story seriously, it's like radicals will ever read. And it's in countries that would surprise you to like, this is not happening in the developed world. And I was just like, oh my gosh, I'm getting that sounds awesome. Power. Yes. When men don't get what they want, it's a bit how much you have. But it's not taken seriously when we're actually trying to like use it. You know, beneficial things. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. That's thing you can sometimes you can feel like so amazing and wonderful. Like we birth we bring the next generation to the world we raise them and then somebody's like, just take the piss out of you at the petrol station because you don't know how to put the hubcap on or you know, it's just something like that, like, and then you're like, This is where I've made in the world. If I say something, and then a man copies exactly what I say and then everyone is good idea. And I used to just be silent and now I literally go Oh, I wish someone else had said the first like I always have to point it out now because I just get so nabbed. Yes. You can't let it go. Like Yeah. Yeah. A lot of like, a lot of guys that I know and love, don't even realize they do it. Like that's how subtle it is. Yep. And I was, how's this for a proud wife a moment. So my husband, we were having dinner because I caught myself Nan's gleaning today halfway through the sentence, and I immediately apologize. A little feminist izany put on him. You have no idea how much has changed. It's been so good. Like, it's been really a loved one. And I'm happy to learn about privilege. Like I think it's, it's only a good thing. And there's actually if you've not read it, I feel like you'd like it. There's a book called, say what you made me do by Jeff Hill, and it's about domestic abuse. But her chapter on patriarchy is just phenomenal. Like, if you could isolate that chapter on its own, it is the best break down and she's an Aussie. So it's using all these statistics, which I really like. But I think just writing in such a way that like my husband, and was like, Oh my gosh, I had no idea. This is how much the patriarchy hurts me. And yeah, like that sort of thing. So it's definitely it's a resource that I recommend to everyone when I talk about this, which is Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's really good. I think it's really powerful is if a guy can read something about patriarchy and not feel offended by it. It's written well, yeah, like he's not being attacked and it's kind of feel like his place is being threatened. I guess. Thank you so much for spending so much time with me today. I've loved chatting with you and going over some some big topics and breaking some stuff down was my favorite thing to do. I love it. Thank you for bearing with me. And thank you so much for sharing. So honestly, I really appreciate it and I know that the listeners will appreciate hearing from you. So thanks again. It's been wonderful. My pleasure and all the best and yeah, keep I'll keep my eye out on your Instagram and laugh along with you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Elim Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Paula Borsetti US mixed media visual artist S3 Ep87 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Paula Borsetti, a visual artist, mother of 1 and grandmother of 2 from Beverly, Massachusetts USA. Paula grew up in a creative family, her dad played the bagpipes and her mother encouraged her creativity. While in high school she took an arts course at a local school and went on to study visual arts. When her daughter was little she joined the local Art Guild to push herself to get involved in exhibitions. After holding various unrelated to art jobs, she fell into teaching art at High School and went on to teach for 26 years, up until 2 years ago when the pandemic hit. She’s been full time in her studio ever since, just a few steps from her back door and surrounded by a trio of English Springer Spaniels. Paula works in a variety of media including painting, drawing, printmaking & mixed media work. Shecreates abstract paintings that tell a story of her life. Her work reflects a love of family, friends and the natural environment of New England. Working in acrylic on linen and panel, she borrows colors, patterns, textures, forms and movement to create layered paintings meant to evoke personal moments and narrative. Her largest and most recent PALS series is an ongoing body of work inspired by the battle her friend's son is waging against ALS . Creating this series allowed Paula to process witnessing what this disease does to people – the patients, their families, friends and the community. She has spent the past 9 years raising funds and awareness for ALS. Her husband Joe and herself created Locust Street Studios, where they make whirligigs and do cooperative projects together. Paula is very passionate about being involved in her community, and is inspired by a family history of strong, independent women, and of mentors who showed her that she could continue her creativity even with children, work and mentoring others. Paula is very is involved in the care of her 2 grandsons and is incredibly grateful for that time. She has many shows coming up, you can check them all out here Paula - instagram / website Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online, I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Thank you so much for joining me this week. It's been a pretty full on weekend I've just returned from Adelaide for a gig with my singing part of my life, where I was lucky enough to perform at a venue in Adelaide with the DJ so that was a lot of fun. I'd also like to apologise for the quality of the recording this week, I had a frantic last minute change of equipment due to an unfortunate incident involving my cat and her bladder. Too much information sorry, my computer is still recovering. But I'm very pleased to say that my guest this week is Paula Bosetti. She's a visual artist, a mother of one and a grandmother of two from Beverly in Massachusetts in the United States. Paula grew up in a creative family her dad playing the bagpipes and her mother encouraged her creativity. While she was in high school, she took an arts course at a local school and went on to study visual arts. When her daughter was little she joined the local art guild to push herself to get involved in exhibitions. After holding various unrelated to art jobs. She fell into teaching and a high school teaching art and went on to do so for 26 years. Until two years ago when the pandemic hit. It was time to retire and she's been full time in her studio. Ever since. Just a few steps from her back door and surrounded by a trio of Springer Spaniels. Paula works in a variety of media, including painting, drawing, printmaking and mixed media work. She creates abstract paintings that tell a story of her life. Her work reflects a love of family friends in the natural environment of New England. Working in acrylic on linen and panel she borrows colours, patterns, textures, forms and movement to create layered paintings meant to invoke personal moments and narratives. Paula is very involved in the care of her two grandsons and is incredibly grateful for that time. Her largest and most recent pals series is an ongoing body of work inspired by the battle her friend's son is waging against ALS disease. Creating this series has allowed Paula to process witnessing what this disease does two people, the patients, their families and friends and the community as a whole. She has spent the last nine years raising funds and awareness for ALS. Her husband Joe in herself created Locust Street Studios, where they make whirly gigs and do cooperative projects together. Paula is very passionate about being involved in her community, and is inspired by a family history of strong independent women and of mentors who showed her that she can continue her creativity even with children, work and mentoring others. Being on the podcast has also given Paula the opportunity to reflect on time has gone by and members of her family who continue to inspire her. Her father was an only child and her grandmother always worked and went to school to learn to be a manicurist she worked out of her home, and eventually the family home when she moved in with all his parents. She had customers that were there with her for years and she continued to work into her 90s her mother in law passed two years ago at 101 Almost 102 and her mother is 94 and still lives in the house she built with her dad. She's very grateful for the strong and independent women role models in her life. And she's conscious not to take that for granted. Paula has quite a lot of shows coming up in the next few months. You can check out the link in the show notes. We You can go to pull up bosetti.com For more information. Thanks again for tuning in. And I really hope you enjoyed today's chat. And apologies for my very croaky voice. It was a big weekend of singing. Thank you so much for coming on polar. It is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yeah, I'm excited to chat to you. So I know that you listened to an episode of someone who is nearby, I think in location was Katie Callaghan's episode. So whereabouts are you in the US? So I am in Massachusetts, in Beverly, which is north of Boston. And I tell people that we're next to Salem, because most people know of Salem, Massachusetts. Yeah. town over from Salem. Yeah, it's a good landmark isn't on the east coast in the East Coast. I actually you when you said a few words that you sounded really Boston like that real accent. So funny. I was telling my friends that I wish I had an Australian accent. Sounds so good on a recording and you know, in life where my my accent is not an accent but then it is to other people. So yeah. Now it's funny. I have a friend that I met. Kind of related. So I when I was teaching, I did a lot of teacher fellowships. And so I met a friend in Cleveland, which is Midwest. And she was just making so much fun of me of how I sit squirrel. You You say squirrel? Whoa squirrel, nonsmoker Whoa. So it's just so funny no matter where you are. Everybody sounds sounds different. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? And then yeah, when I say as a squirrel squirrel so I mentioned being a teacher, but you're at the moment that you're a visual artist, that you're a painter. And I can see some beautiful artwork behind you. And thank you for sending me some photos too. Can you describe for people the the style that you would call your art and the sort of mediums that you used a work I am an abstract painter. And I'm working in acrylic right now. And I add a lot of mark making like drawing tools or sometimes collage sometimes transfers, but primarily acrylic paint. And I build up a lot of layers. And I think of myself as an painter because I like to put everything in and then cover it over and kind of build a history with the work. And so some of its narrative a little bit. But mostly it's from experiences that I have every day and in my everyday life and my family. So I just work from a process where I don't sketch out and plan my work I just get started and then see what happens and let the painting progress that way. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I'm gonna share some photos of your work you know through your promotion because I just it's really interesting I don't think I've ever seen like a similar to abstract work, but I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like yours. It's really lovely. It's like, like, the one that's over your right shoulder the with the blue. Like what? What inspired you to make that one? So this one with the pink above it or the one? Yeah, yeah, the one with the pink one. Yeah. So I'm having I'm working on a series of paintings. That is really about healing. And my dear friends son He was diagnosed with ALS at the age of 25. And he and my daughter grew up together, we shared, you know, we traded off kids so we could go to work. And so for the past nine years, I've been using my art to help raise funds and awareness for ALS. But things like selling cards or doing, you know, proceeds from my artwork, and then I just realised it wasn't enough, I needed to really dig a little bit deeper into what it meant to process this whole kind of journey. And so I started a couple of years ago, just thinking about his whole journey and, and how everybody's kind of dealing with that. And so these, this series of paintings, jump jump off from words that he gave me a list of words, I asked for his caregiver to come up with a list of words. And it just started there with words. And so I do a lot of writing on the canvas before I start. And then this one, in particular is called the dose of Prunella and I was really thinking about sections of the body. So this is really a figurative painting in a way. The background it's hard to see in here, but the background has a lot of mark making that has equations that aren't solved. It's kind of references, an old chalkboard and that, but inside the figure, the colours are really warm, and it's hopeful, and it's blossoming. And Prunella is also called all heal. And so it's a flower that's used to heal everything from internal to external wounds. And so that piece is really telling that story about healing from the inside to the outside and everything that kind of goes on around it. I love that. So yeah, there's a lot of symbolism in that. Yeah, that's yeah. It went through many, many stages of being I like I was saying earlier, I feel like I can paint because I put everything in. So there was so many stages of trying to figure out, I knew from a dream that I had, I wanted to have these three segments. But figuring out how much of the story is told through symbolism that's recognisable, and how much is told through what's abstract. You did it? There's a lot of paint. Yeah. We're on that with you with what you put into work. Do you buy stuff around with painting? I'm not a painter. I just like painting. Right? So this is me coming? Coming at you with someone painter. Someone with a very likes paints is a painter. So yeah, do when you create something like that with the symbols in it? Do you want your audience to work it out? Or do you not care what your audience makes of it? Because you've expressed what you want to express? And then you sort of pass it over to them to take what they want from it. Yes, yes. So that's a really fine balance, like a tight rope almost, you know, I, I paint them because I need to. And I hope that somebody sees something in it that speaks to them, you know, makes it a personal journey for them. So, you know, I don't I don't mind that if and nobody kind of references that chalkboard feeling of the background or you know, the feeling that's internal in those in those sections. It's okay, if it's interpreted in another way. That's okay with me. I just want hopefully somebody to see it and feel a connection. Yeah, yeah. Cuz it was the reason I asked you that is my my son who's well, he's now seven. I think he might have been six when he asked me this, because I was doing some painting and he wanted to know what it was about. And I said, Well, you, you can work out whatever you want out of it. And he goes about how when you paint it, though, don't you want people to know? And I said, I don't mind if they don't know. And I know when I said it. I sort of thought do I really? You know, I started to question myself. Yeah, so I'd like that, especially the people that paint lot with that symbolism, I find that really interesting. I think that, you know, as an, as an artist, you know, you have a story that you want to tell. And you just put it out there and hope that somebody is going to hear it in their own way, you know, and that, that it will resonate with them. Yeah, I'm sure it's that way with the, with music as well, you know, when you're when you're crafting a song that, you know, you want people to get that, that feeling that you have from it, you know, but you know, it's gonna be their interpretation or their experience of it. Yeah, absolutely. That's, ya know, that's a good way to compare it actually. So want to take you back to when you got started in painting? Have you been painting your whole life? So, yes. It seems silly. But I was thinking about this. And one of the Yeah, always had been creating something and using my hands for something. And, and I remember, the question brought me back to this memory of, we had a typical, you know, our house had a back porch with the white railing. And one day, I decided that I didn't understand why it was the right way. So I got my friend to colour it with me with crayon. You know, we thought, amazing. My mom didn't think it was so amazing. So it had to be cleared off before my father got home. But I always remember, you know, I grew up in a creative family. And so, as a matter of fact, my father would rather do anything than, you know, work on the house, or, you know, he he wanted to be creating all the time. And so I get that from him. But when they were finishing the upstairs of our house, before it got wallpapered I have I'm the youngest of four, we were able to just draw and write on the walls, because it was going to be wallpapered. Yeah. And I think probably that lasted about seven years. So if that wallpaper ever comes down, the people are in for a whole history lesson on what it was like in the late 60s or early 70s. I don't know. I know there were there was a lot of music quotes on that wall. And, and as a matter of fact, one of my friends from high school told me years later, she couldn't understand what kind of a house that I lived in. That we were able to write on the walls Yeah, so anyways, I I've always been creating. I was fortunate to go to art school. When I was in high school, my my friend's mother worked at a Catholic school, and there was a sister a few towns away that was giving art lessons and so we were able to sign up and my friend was able to take the car. So we started going there during high school in the summers, and she's the one that told us to go to art school. So she had us put our portfolios together, wrote us letters of recommendation. So that was my first push to go from her my divine intervention servants and good so back then were you draw Are you were you painting in a similar kind of style to what you are now or have you gone sort of through some changes in your, your methods? I was doing a lot of landscape painting. So you know, in in art school, we did a lot of still life and figures in oil painting, and then I wasn't able to do oil painting in my home because of the fumes and so I switched to watercolour and started doing a lot of painting outside. I started working after art school, not in an art field. And then I did had several different jobs before I fell into teaching. So that wasn't until my daughter was in kindergarten that I that I went into teaching. So I did bookkeeping and and just different jobs to maintain my art practice. Yeah, so my work was mostly watercolour landscapes. And but always a little bit abstract. I always was not really interested in in representing exactly what was in front of me, but rather a feeling or a sense of the place. Or my memory of the place. Yeah, yeah, that yeah, I can. I can relate to that a lot that? Yeah, yeah. Well, my daughter was little I started going to our I joined the local art guild, so that I would make sure that I kind of pushed myself to be able to be in exhibits, and be in a group of artists, so that I wasn't just working and not not involved in art. So I did that for a long time. And then when she went to kindergarten is when I started teaching. kind of fell into that. Yeah, well, I didn't really have a studio, then to share. So I did have a bedroom. That was our kind of office slash my studio. So that's why I painted a lot outside, you know, and I could put my daughter in the stroller and fill up a backpack and go and do some painting. So it wasn't until I turned 40 that I got my studio, which is where I am right now in my studio, which is our garage that we completely remove my husband redid it for me to make it into a studio. Yeah, cool. I was looking for studio space outside we had a in the downtown area of our city, there was a old mill that was made into studios, you know, and I was thinking about going in the so I would be with other artists. But at that time, I was working full time two or three jobs, going back to school and I knew my I would come out and do my work at nine o'clock at night, I wasn't going to be getting in the car and going going someplace. So yeah, it's really been a blessing. So you talked about going into teaching? Did you teach art? Or did you teach your different subjects into an art high school art? So I might, my sisters were teachers. And I was not going to be a teacher. And then I, when when I said I, when I had my daughter and I joined the local art group, one of the women in that group was actually the, the head of the art department for the city. And when the city they were looking for somebody at the high school, and she passed my name on, and they called me out of the blue and wanted me to come in and, you know, I call my sister and she said, Yes, you're going to do this. And so I went and that was it. I was hired, and I taught for 26 years. So and sometimes I think like what would have happened if I started my studio practice 26 years prior, but I don't think I would be in the same place as I am now. You know, the the being a teacher really opened me up to, you know, not only meeting so many amazing students, but learning how to learn again, I guess, you know, and wanting, wanting the students to have that love of learning. And when you're teaching, you're teaching all kinds of things. So you're learning as you're going and I don't know it was it was a good one. I have to say I really loved the students and And as a matter of fact, my daughter became a teacher at the same high school. So we will colleagues for seven years to teach us culinary. So that was a really fabulous. Yeah. So. And I taught at the high school where I swore once I left, I would never step foot in that building. Was back that teaching, but Oh, that's lovely. That's a great, that is a great story, isn't it? Yeah. Sometimes we just sort of end up doing things. And you sort of, I don't know, like you said, You just fell into it. And that's the thing, if, when you said about if you had have said no to that, perhaps and then really got stuck into yarn. But then on the flip side, all those experiences that you had, and that have probably fed into your creativity over the years, so it's sort of like, Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. Right. And, and, and, you know, it I love I love doing things in the community and giving back and I think about the mentors that I had. And teaching was my way of kind of giving back to all those people in my life that helped me along. And so I'm really appreciative of that, and grateful for that opportunity to do that. You know, and then, when COVID hit, teaching remote, I walked out of my classroom in March, and I never went back because that was the year I was, had made the decision that I was jumping and jumping to my studio full time. Yeah, so that was kind of crazy. And yeah, to that. But I had, I knew at that point. It was time, you know, it was time for me to take that leap and jump into my studio practice full time. So it's just been under two years that I've been full time in the studio. Or just just a little over two years, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. How does that feel? Now being able to do that? Is that a really satisfying time for you? Now you're living that dream, like it really is? Like, I get to do this every day. And, you know, sometimes my husband's like, you're just, you know, full out, like, don't want to do anything. I've been waiting. Like, yeah, this is my time. This is what I want to do. So, you know, it's really so much fun to be able to be working at this, you know, and I want to steps out my door. So it doesn't matter what the weather is. Out here and here I am and a whole nother world, you know? Yep. Yep. So this is a good time to mention the the three studio dogs that you have that you photos are gorgeous. Are they like us manual or some sort of retriever? What are they? They're English Springer Spaniels, their field spaniel. So they're not the show Spaniels with the the shows being able to have longer hair and ears but they're their field spaniel. So they're raised 200,000 to do field trials and are just hanging out in my studio. One of them is 10 and Jenny and she has a broken bat. She had a broken spine when she was about a week old so she's she doesn't think she's any any different though. She's fat. She's great. She's done really well. And then the other black and white one is my daughter's but she comes every day for Nana and Grampy camp. And the youngest one is are the brown and white is sunny. So she's our baby. Yeah, I love it. It's great. Must be yeah, nice to have that company. You know, just the just in the space with you know us most of the time. Sometimes they're knocking me over. Oh, and they're they're wrestling into my feet and yeah, I'm done with them having them sometimes So you're also a grandma, which is pretty cool. Congratulations. Because it's I sort of think, you know, we take things for granted sometimes. And I don't know, it's nice to be able to celebrate that we've, you know, moving through life and still doing what we love. Yeah, you have two grandsons. You have two grandsons. So I have one daughter. And she has two boys, her and her husband have two little boys. One is five and the other is two and a half. And so the five year old goes to preschool. So I pick him up every day at preschool and have him for the for the afternoon. So I'm am doing childcare along with, along with painting full time, but I wouldn't trade it for anything. You know, I'm so fortunate to be able to help them out. But also spend that time with him. Yeah, next year, he'll go to kindergarten, and I probably won't need to pick them up. So I'll probably have have the other one though. So yeah, that's, that'll that'll be that'll be good. But yeah, haven't being a grandparent is amazing. You know, because you're not 24/7. Yeah, they can come and go. But yeah, it's, it's really special. Yeah. And they, and I love that they see me as an artist, you know, like, I'm their Nana, but they also know that I'm an artist, and they talk about my paintings, they come out to my studio, you know, they'll paint with me, I will do projects together. You know, they know that this is a part of who I am. That's awesome. How did that go? Then when your daughter you talked about when she was in kindy? Then you went back? You were working as a teacher then. But she would have seen you she would have seen new paint before then. Was that something that you were sort of? i No one wanted her to see that. And I put this in air quotes. You weren't just her mom, because we never just mad, but that you also doing things for yourself? Yes, that was really important to me. Because I always wanted her to have a strong opinion of who she was as a person, and not other labels attached. And so I wanted her to know that, you know, I was more than, you know, I'm not just my job, I'm not just a mother, you know, I have things that I'm passionate about. And then I'm going to pursue those things. Because those are the things that light us up and, and fulfil our lives. And so it's always worth chasing that dream. And that passion. And, and that other things, you know, may not be as important as we think they are. So I wanted I always took her with me, she knew that I was doing other things. And on the other hand, on the flip side of that, though, when I was teaching, and they had to go back to school a lot and be taking courses, you know, there was a time where I was going for my masters that it was weekend courses. So I would be gone Friday night, all day, Saturday, and all day Sunday. And some of those weekends were birthdays, you know, her 10th birthday, I was in class and so I had that difficult time of trying to figure out, you know, how do I balance this and make it okay. I can remember being in a class and giving a presentation and just cry, you know, like bursting into tears because it was her birthday and I wasn't there you know, to celebrate it with her but yeah, that you know that mom guilt, right? Oh, yeah. You took the words right out of my mouth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So is that you give me that example. But is that is that something that you've sort of over the years, I guess you've got that perspective now with the grandchildren? Is it something that you've sort of learned to let go and not judge yourself as harshly? Or is it is it's, you know, still something that you think about. I definitely don't judge myself harshly for that, for doing what I what I want to do anymore. I wish I had known that I could do that and had that confidence, you know, a long time ago, that it was okay to let things go. We can, you know, if it's okay, if the dishes pile up in the sink. millinery isn't all folded and put away if you're, if you're doing something that you want to be doing, or you're on the floor, playing with the kids, you know, those things are okay, you know, that that's more important sometimes. I think that the area that I grew up in where, you know, I saw my mother You know, she had to stop working when she was pregnant when she started showing, you know, it was time for her to be home and be preparing, you know, being a housewife, but she was never, she, she kind of just did her thing too. You know, like, she always worked she. She, she did things that she loved to do. And so I think that that was a good role model for me as well. So I don't know, I think that times have changed, I think hope thankfully, you know, yeah. Yeah. And I think that limit and ask their partners for more help than we ever do. Well, my generation or, you know, it was different. Yeah, it sort of wasn't sort of acceptable to, to ask for help. Was kind of that was your job, I guess. Just thinking about, you know, my mother's Yes. Yeah. I'm pretty balanced and balanced, balanced at all. So you had to, you know, take care of juggling it all and, and not ask for help and tuck everything away. And, you know, yeah, but thank goodness, that's changed. Yes, yes. Yeah. So when you're talking about your mom having to leave work when she started to show my mum's auntie. So the age of my grandma, I guess, was soon as they got married, they had to leave work. Because it was like, You need to give the single girls you need to give them the jobs because now you're married. You've got a husband, so you don't need to work. And don't need to work. Yeah, I know. She was very fiercely angry about it. Yeah. I couldn't imagine being told that I just be like, sorry, angry. Well, even with my sisters, I said I was the youngest of four daughters. And my oldest sister. And the second oldest sister. The only options for them were to become nurses or teachers. You know, that was pretty much the track that they were, they were sent on, you know, and then just a few years later, I was able to go to art school. So I was I was lucky. Timing. One at the right time, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So take them. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. With regard to what influences you were sort of talked about, it's basically your life and your experiences. So did you notice then after you had your daughter that your your painting radically changed because of all you know, the emotions and the cutting the word is, but the emotions of going through becoming a monk. So I don't think it radically changed. I think that I became more in tune with maybe with how I my feelings and then understanding that that could be expressed through my art As opposed to just going out and painting, so excuse me something that I saw. Yeah, I don't think so, there really wasn't a huge change, I just had to find ways to do it, along with being a mum and working full time. And so it became grabbing moments when I could, making the time I would work smaller, you know, so that I could just make sure I, you know, if I had 20 minutes, I could do something that was not a huge project. So something that was smaller, did a lot of different things, you know, painting, painting on clothing, and I don't know, just finding any way I could to make sure I got the work done. And then when I started teaching, I had time to do work, because I was working on things in the studio at school, and learning different things. And I always kept my practice going, even, even through teaching. Going back to school, taking classes, you know, being a mom, it was important for me to really keep that. Keep that practice going. But I don't think that my work really. I don't think I was able to really see a huge shift in my work until I started doing it. Full time. Yeah, it makes making a difference. Being able to do it full time. Yeah, absolutely. And did the way that the way that you saw yourself, personally, did that go through some changes when you had your daughter? I don't think so. We try. It was difficult for me to get pregnant. So I think that I was so relieved when I was when I was pregnant, and when I had her you know, as something that I wanted for so long. And so it just felt like another piece of the puzzle, you know, that I that I wanted to have happen. And so I didn't really change what I how I felt about myself, you know, and just added to added to the Yeah, the me. I didn't lose myself. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I found another piece of myself. Hmm. Yeah. Do you think that being able to paint all the way through? Helped that? You know, you say you didn't lose a part of yourself, I guess, because you were able to keep doing that thing that was so ingrained in you. Yes, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think that no matter what, creative outlet that I found, you know, I found a way to always have some, some creative outlet. So I think I would have lost my self if I didn't have that. You know, I? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I had a really good friend and mentor, who I took classes from her actually, when I went to high school with one of her sons. She had six kids, and found a way to continue doing her work. And she had a studio and she taught. So she really was a great role model for me that you can still do, do it all, you know. Yeah. Have your family have your career through your art, mentor other people. And she was painting. She just passed away last year, unfortunately. And, you know, we were talking art and painting and, you know, until the day she died, so, gosh, you know, it's just, she was just a fabulous role model for that. That's very inspiring, isn't it? People? Yeah. Now I've got to mention you. You said to me in an email that your dad played bagpipes. Yes, is so cool, because listeners will probably recall that my son Alex has been playing the bagpipes probably for about just over 12 months I record maybe. Can't think exactly when he started. It's an incredible instrument, isn't it? Yes. You know, I grew up going to parades probably every weekend when I was a kid, you know, and, and following my father's bagpipe band and my mother toning up his pipes. And he played the chanter constantly. Yeah, yep. And he used to play the bagpipes, he used to march around our back yard and playing his pipes. And at one point, we had a goose, the goose would follow him. The neighbours would be like there is added again, you know? I love it, though. You know, and it's funny where I live now. We have a cemetery that's just down the street. And there's somebody that that goes and practices in the cemetery. And every so often I hear the sound come through my studio, and I just think that it's bad, you know? Yeah. Fabulous. It is. It's like, Alex. So he just turned 15. And he Yeah, he never was into anything musical, like, I'm musical, my husband's musical. But I'd always say to him, do you want me to show you how to play something like on the piano? Or do you wanna sing now I don't want to do it. And then all of a sudden, he just decided he wanted to play the recorder, which is like a, you know, horrible sounding instrument. So he played that for me. And then I got him an Irish tin whistle because I thought that'd be a bit nicer sound. And it's similar was in, he's actually that's in the same key as what a bag clubs are in. So once you master that, he said, Well, now want to play the bagpipes. Oh, my God, really? The bag. But like, Yeah, but it's wonderful. It's so wonderful. And I just, I'm so proud of him, you know, a kid, the kid wanting to play such a iconic instrument and one that, you know, not many kids play, you know, he's in a band in the band of our town. And he's by far the youngest in there. And they all love him. Because it's like, they're so pleased that the next generations coming through and they're almost like his little, he's the little sort of mascot that they can put out the front and say, Look, anyone can play the back votes. You know, it's not this. You know, people think right for people who are older, but you know, yes, it's great. It is it? Is it a like a Scottish bagpipe. Because I know there's different types of pay. It is the Scottish cops. Yes. He wears his kilt and his little spar and a little hat. And it's just lovely. And he loves loves the lovers getting dressed in his in his outfit. So yes, it's bringing bringing a lot of joy to us at the moment. That's wonderful. My dad had a special set of pipes that somebody actually made him from Scotland. And no. We, when he passed about 16 years ago, now, but we gave his pipes to somebody who was in a band in a few towns over, but it was sad to see them go, you know, so special to him. You know, and they were really it was such a big part of our lives. And even now, I you know, when I hear bagpipes, I know if they're good. Yes, yeah. And I'm not musical at all. But my dad could pick up anything he could play any instrument he would just self taught and he could just pick it up and play it. You know, but I didn't get that. Because artistic ability, but not the musical ability. So there's no no none of your sisters play bagpipes either. So I wish one of us had picked it up. Yeah, my he, my sister used to do some Scottish dancing but none of us wanted to play the pipes. So if you had enough of you pop Part One lifetime. I always loved it, I really did. Yeah, and I think like, being involved in a band, too, it's just so good. You know, for people of any age, it's just wonderful, that connection with others, and you learn so many life skills in a band, you know, compromising and listening, and you learn how to put your, you know, your thoughts forward in respectful way. So it's almost like being in a workplace, you know, you get that same sort of interaction with people. So I'm really pleased that Alex is doing it. And it's great to, you know, to give back to the community as well, because mostly geeks, you know, they're unpaid, they're doing it because they love it. And I grew up doing a lot of that with my singing. So I think it's wonderful that, you know, you learn that there's other other things in life, you know, you don't, everything you do doesn't have to have an exchange of, of money. You know, you can do it because you love it, you can do it because other people love it. Something I'm really pleased that he's understood. That's the best thing about being creative, though. Don't you think that? Oh, yeah. You know, I think that that is something that's kind of instilled in, in the value of being creative person that you know, you want to share. You want to teach people you want to, you know, put things out there and have somebody else have it touch somebody else. Yeah. Yeah. Is that can is that? Yeah, those connections. I really miss that about teaching and doing the community projects. We always did community projects. So I try to do that as much as possible. Now, you know, you're still teaching you're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, Alison Newman. Can you share with the listeners, the shows you've got coming up whereabouts they are. So they have an online solo show, march 7 through the 20th. Virtual through women's Women United art movement. Yeah. And I'm in a show starting in March, an online gallery called gallery 118, which is called untold narratives. And another one beginning March 1, with the Manhattan arts international called her story. Yep. And then I have part of a cooperative gallery on Rocky neck here in Massachusetts and then Gloucester, rocky neck is the oldest continuous art colony in math in the United States. Oh, wow. So have a cooperative gallery there, which is open year round. And I'll have another show at another gallery on Rocky neck in May. And then I have I'm in a group show in Amesbury, Massachusetts. And then I have some other online exhibits. I'm part of the National Association of Women Artists in the United States. And so I'm part of an online winter show with them right now. And then we have a website called boy said he.com. Social, my social is my Instagram is Locust Street Studios live on Locust Street. And as Ben and I, he makes whirly gigs and I paint them so we do some kind of cooperative projects together. So that's why the Instagram is local Street Studios to kind of encompass that partnership that we have. But it's mostly Instagram is all my artwork. Yeah. Excellent. Well, I'll put all the links to all those shows in the in the show notes, so if anyone wants to click away, they will be able to find it. So with your with the shows you've got of a particular series of works that you're showing. So that my solo show is called tending. Excuse me, tending below the surface, the solo show with women aren't united. And so that body of work is all about the process pieces of with my friend's son who has ALS. And so all of those pieces stem from the story, his story in his words, and then my interpretation of that and how to process that. So my goal is to kind of deal with that, and the healing process of that, but and also to raise awareness. And just, you know, put it out there that there's, there's a whole population of people that are living with ALS, you know, and it's yeah, no, that's, that's fantastic. It. It's difficult, but all of the paintings are very hopeful, because he's hopeful, and he is never giving up. And so I want them all to show us a sense of strength and resilience and hope. That's how the pins present themselves. Yeah. So that's going to be 2020 or 25 paintings in that show. Yeah, right. That's a lot. Isn't is that a lot? Was that about the normal range for for a show? I think about 15 to 20. That's a Yeah. Yeah. It depends on how she curates it. So how many will will be in the air but era? It'll be great. She's fabulous. And I Oh, finished? Are you still working on some of those? They're all finished. They're all finished. Was like giving birth, like when putting out all of the work together and sending it off. I just was like, Yeah, did it? Yeah, I kind of was hoping that the dates for the show would be closer to the end of the year, because I thought, oh, I need this whole year to get this body of work done. But I'm actually glad that it's, it's here. You know, it's done. I'm still working on that series. I'll be working on it for a long time. But it's nice to have this one collection done. Yeah. Yeah. So that that's your focus at the moment. That's what you continue to paint. About that? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They go a little off. Every single painting is based on a you know, I have, I work in a series. And so I'll probably I have a lot of paintings going on at once. And so just kind of depends on where the paintings leading me. Right now, I'm, I just finished a lot of really large paintings. And so I'm working on a series of small ones. So I have a series of 36, four by four panels that I'm doing some 12 by 12, six by six different things like that. And part of part of art and found day, I don't know if you've ever heard of that. But on March 12, artists across the globe will hide artwork in their communities for people to find Oh, that's cool. Yeah, so you can go on art and found a and they have a map. You can click and there's anybody in your area that's hiding painting. Check that out. That sounds Oh, yeah, that's really fun. So I'm working on some pieces to put out in my community for that. Right. Oh, I'll definitely put the links up for that if anyone around the world is interested. That sounds so cool. If you like finding you know, just that amazing buzz. Yeah. Or a geocache? You know, it's really fun. I got on Yeah, that's lovely way to be be involved, isn't it? Like you're literally involved in your community? You're putting your paintings into the community. I love that. Yeah. Good on your polar. Before I let you go, is there anything else that you wanted to mention that I maybe haven't asked about or just anything that's on your thoughts you've got you want to share? I don't think so. I think I would just say that if anybody is, you know, any more moms out there, or grandmothers, you know that are questioning whether you keep telling me Do you do it? You know? Like, you gotta keep going and keep pursuing that passion. You know, everything else falls into place when you do that, I think Hmm, yes, that's a good way of looking at it is now instead of from the top from the top down at all it all sort of just Yeah. finds its way. Yeah, yeah. Oh that's great. Thank you so much for it's been lovely chatting to you. It's been a lovely start to my day. Thank you it's been a lovely end to mind. I hope the future is right, because you're there already. Yes, it's still here. The future is still here. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband John. If you'd like to learn more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.