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Rachel Charge Australian ceramic artist, writer and multidisciplinary creative 10 Article # 8 September 2023 READ Britt Australian designer 8 Article # 18 August 2023 READ Magdalena McGuire Australian author 6 Article # 4 August 2023 READ Sarah Bailey Australian author 4 Article # 7 July 2023 READ Cherie Harte Canadian interdisciplinary artist 2 Article # 23 June 2023 READ ​ ​ ​ Article # ​ READ Thea Rossen Australian musician 9 Article # 24 August 2023 READ Chelsea McCrae Australian podcaster 7 Article # 11 August 2023 READ Stella Anning Australian guitarist 5 Article # 28 July 2023 READ Elena Zima Russian painter 3 Article # 30 June 2023 READ Diane Kazakis Australian mixed media artist 1 Article # 3 June 2023 READ LOAD MORE

Browse all episodes... Filter by Name Season Episode Clear Filters Scott Shriner Bass guitarist for rock band Weezer S4Ep102 31 August 2023 Read More Emma Stenhouse Indigenous Australian artist S4Ep100 13 July 2023 Read More Claire Tonti Australian musician and podcaster S4Ep97 26 May 2023 Read More Season 3 Special Recap of Season 3 Special 5 May 2023 Read More Zach Mander Australian comedian + announcer S4Ep103 31 August 2023 Read More Damien Leith Irish Australian singer, songwriter, author and playwright S4Ep99 16 June 2023 Read More Breanna Churchill US author and educator S4 Ep96 19 May 2023 Read More Jo Maloney Australian singer, songwriter and musician S3 Ep94 28 April 2023 Read More Jenn Book Haselswerdt US educator, playwright + dramaturgist S4Ep101 21 July 2023 Read More Tamara Seeley Australian singer songwriter S4Ep98 9 June 2023 Read More Mary Sotiropolous and Jessie Ann Elliot Australian authors S4 Ep95 12 May 2023 Read More Sarah Hens Australian blogger S3 Ep93 21 April 2023 Read More Browse more episodes...

Rachel Charge Australian ceramic artist, writer and multidisciplinary creative 10 Article # 8 September 2023 READ Britt Australian designer 8 Article # 18 August 2023 READ Magdalena McGuire Australian author 6 Article # 4 August 2023 READ Sarah Bailey Australian author 4 Article # 7 July 2023 READ Cherie Harte Canadian interdisciplinary artist 2 Article # 23 June 2023 READ ​ ​ ​ Article # ​ READ Thea Rossen Australian musician 9 Article # 24 August 2023 READ Chelsea McCrae Australian podcaster 7 Article # 11 August 2023 READ Stella Anning Australian guitarist 5 Article # 28 July 2023 READ Elena Zima Russian painter 3 Article # 30 June 2023 READ Diane Kazakis Australian mixed media artist 1 Article # 3 June 2023 READ LOAD MORE

Jenn Book Haselswerdt US educator, playwright + dramaturgist S4Ep101 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week on the podcast is Jenn Book Haselswerdt, a multi passionate creative and mum of 2 from Missouri USA. Jen is an Arts integration teacher, playwright and dramaturgist , but also enjoys doing all kinds of creating, from pottery to knitting and baking. Jenn was first drawn to the theatre through 'Annie' the musical. She was a professional through College, had a short time as a professional actor but then realised that she wanted to teach and write in the theatre. Jenn holds an Undergraduate Degree in Theatre, and a Masters Degree in Theatre, History and Criticism. She works with companies on new play development, reading scripts and doing research into the histories behind plays. She also works with a gallery to teach about the history of the art pieces. **Jenn's episode contains mentions of anxiety and depression** If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a Mum podcast where I, Alison Newman, a singer, songwriter and Aussie mum of two, 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:19,000 enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered while trying to be a mum and continue to create. 3 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:28,000 You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work's been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms 4 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:34,000 and we also strain to territories such as the patriarchy, feminism and capitalism. 5 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:42,000 You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch 6 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:47,000 and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. 7 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:55,000 I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast but if at any time you're concerned about your mental health 8 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:02,000 I urge you to talk to those around you, reach out to health professionals or seek out resources online. 9 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:10,000 I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, alisonnewman.net slash podcast. 10 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:18,000 The Art of Being a Mum would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on as being the Boanduk people. 11 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:30,000 I'm working on land that was never seeded. 12 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:37,000 Hello and welcome to another edition of the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me from wherever you are in the world. 13 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:43,000 It is a pleasure to have you. My guest this week on the podcast is Jen Book-Hasselswert. 14 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:48,000 Jen is a multi-passionate creative and a mum of two from Baltimore in the USA. 15 00:01:48,000 --> 00:02:00,000 Jen is an arts integration teacher, a playwright and a dramaturgist but also enjoys doing all kinds of creating from pottery to knitting and baking. 16 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,000 Jen was first drawn to the theatre through the musical Annie. 17 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:15,000 She was an actor through college and had a short time as a professional actor but then realised that she actually wanted to teach and write in the theatre instead. 18 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:22,000 Jen holds an undergraduate degree in the theatre and a masters degree in theatre, history and criticism. 19 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:30,000 She works with companies on new play development, reading scripts and doing research into the histories behind plays. 20 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:36,000 She also works with a gallery to teach about the history of various art pieces. 21 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:41,000 Please be aware today's episode contains brief mentions of anxiety and depression. 22 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:56,000 I hope you enjoy episode number 101. Thanks again for tuning in. 23 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:01,000 Thank you so much, Jen. It's such a pleasure to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you for coming on. 24 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,000 Thanks for having me. 25 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:09,000 Such a pleasure. And we were just chatting before we hit record that I'm in your future right now. 26 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:15,000 It's Saturday at 1pm in Australia and what time did you say it was over there? 27 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,000 It is Friday night at 10.30pm. 28 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:23,000 There you go. Well, we're still here. The future is still guffing. 29 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,000 It's so bizarre to think like that. 30 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:34,000 I always love on New Year's Eve when, because we're one of the first, apart from Auckland, Sydney is one of the main first ones to go. 31 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:40,000 And I love just sitting there through the day and just watching all the other countries go through their big fireworks. 32 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:48,000 And it feels so weird when you're sitting in bright sunshine on a really hot day and you're watching people in the snow in the dark. 33 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,000 It is so cool. I love it. 34 00:03:50,000 --> 00:04:05,000 Well, I have to tell you, my son is 12 years old and he is really excited that I'm talking to someone in Australia right now because a video game that he was really looking forward to came out today. 35 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:11,000 And all the YouTubers who he knows have gone to Australia so that they could get the video game first. 36 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,000 Oh, wow. 37 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,000 And record all of their YouTube. 38 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,000 Yeah, like reactions and what game is that? Do you know what it's called? 39 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,000 It is Tears of the Kingdom. 40 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,000 Yeah, right. 41 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,000 It is the new Zelda game. 42 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,000 Oh, yes, yes. I know the one. 43 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:35,000 Yeah, yes. That is a very popular. That's been going for a long time too, hasn't it, Zelda? 44 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:45,000 I mean, yeah, I'm I'm 43. And like I remember playing a Zelda game back on 8-bit Nintendo back in the early 90s. 45 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:53,000 Yeah, yeah. Good old Zelda. She's still going. Good on her. 46 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,000 So what part of America are you in, Jane? 47 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:05,000 I am in Missouri, which is in kind of like the middle of the country. 48 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:15,000 Kind of fraught right now. But I'm from Baltimore, which is in Maryland close to the East Coast. 49 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:16,000 Oh, yes. 50 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,000 Yeah, I was from the Atlantic Ocean. 51 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,000 You would be amazed the amount of people I've had on here from Maryland. 52 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:31,000 I can't say it right. I say Maryland. Yeah, I reckon I've had three, three episodes with people from like Baltimore or near Baltimore. 53 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:36,000 Yeah, there's something going on in that part of the world that's just coming to me. 54 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:42,000 We embrace kitsch in a way in Baltimore that like no no other place does. 55 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:46,000 And so I think we kind of breed arts loving people. 56 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,000 Yeah, I love that. It's so cool. 57 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:54,000 Yeah, and I'm starting to get better with my geography of America. 58 00:05:54,000 --> 00:06:00,000 So yeah, I appreciate when you say you're sort of in the middle. That's my mental thing. 59 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,000 Yep. Yep. 60 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:06,000 So my parents live in Maryland. My brother lives in Los Angeles, California. 61 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:16,000 And so I'm about 1500 miles from each. From each of them. Yeah. Yeah. That's a beautiful visual. That makes sense. Yes. 62 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:23,000 But I still forget which side is Seattle on the West Coast. It is. Yeah. 63 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,000 Sometimes I get confused because New York's on the East Coast, isn't it? 64 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,000 Yes. That's cool. 65 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:33,000 And Seattle's in Washington State and Washington, D.C. is on the East. 66 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,000 How did you manage that? 67 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:43,000 There are too many, you know, wanting to name things after the same exact people. 68 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:48,000 Why there, you know, I'm in Columbia, Missouri, and there's Colombias all over the place. 69 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,000 Everywhere. Yeah. Yep. Yep. 70 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:57,000 Oh, there you go. It's interesting. I love all these things I get to learn. It's all fun. 71 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:02,000 Actually, when I was a kid, I used to play this game. It was called Where in the World is Carmen San Diego. 72 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:09,000 And that was one of my favorite games. Yes. And I used to love like I liked that one more, the original more than the time travel one. 73 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:15,000 It was something I did like the time travel. But yeah, that just made me realize all these amazing places in the world. 74 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:21,000 And I think that was the start of me being fascinated with I had to get pen pals so I could talk to people. 75 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,000 And then my fascination with the weather, what it's like in other places like I don't know. 76 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:30,000 It's built from that that game. It's opening my eyes to it. Yeah. 77 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:36,000 It's the only way I know nation's capitals. Yes. Yeah. That's so true, isn't it? 78 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:44,000 Hey, on weather, what what's it like there at the moment? What's your right now? It is humid and muggy. 79 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:53,000 Yeah, it is. We had a really cold snap and very late cold snap with the garden. 80 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,000 Gardens kind of froze up and none of the plants knew what to do. Yeah. 81 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:05,000 But now it's 85 degrees and very, very humid. I'm just going to work that into my conversion. 82 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:11,000 Yeah, I'm still I'm still I don't have a match. Oh, yeah, that's nice. 83 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:16,000 Yeah, that's warm. Yeah. But muggies. Yeah. Yeah. Make it a bit uncomfortable. 84 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:22,000 No, not muggy. Yeah. There we go. All right. Enough of my random questions. 85 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:36,000 I have nothing to do with anything. I just indulge myself. I love it. Oh, dear. 86 00:08:52,000 --> 00:09:02,000 So you're obviously a mother, Jen. And I love on your your Instagram how you say you like like the coziness of creating things that are cozy. 87 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:08,000 And so you do all sorts of different things. So, yeah, share with us what you like to create. 88 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Sure. So I stole the phrase from this influencer named Deanna Joy, which is multi-passionate creative, 89 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:25,000 which I think sounds so much better than dilettante. So I my first love is Twitter. 90 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:33,000 But when we're talking about the the creating I do with my hands, I love baking. 91 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:39,000 I love pottery. I love quilting and other sewing. 92 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:46,000 And kind of all those things that make you feel warm and cozy. Yeah. Now, I'm sorry, I cut you off. 93 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:53,000 What did you say your first love was? Well, my first love was theater and still is. Oh, magnificent. 94 00:09:53,000 --> 00:10:02,000 Oh, we're going to get on very well. So, yeah. So straight theater or musical theater? 95 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:15,000 Mostly straight because my voice was never well, my voice is OK, but my dance skills were never at a place where I could. 96 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:20,000 Nine years of ballet didn't do anything for me. Yeah. 97 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:32,000 But yeah, so straight theater. I actually have my undergraduate degree in theater and master's degree in theater history and criticism. 98 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:44,000 And I work with companies on new play development and reading scripts and doing research into the histories behind plays and things like that, which is 99 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:54,000 really the most nerdy fun you can possibly have. But that just sounds so fascinating, like getting to delve into stuff in such a deep level. 100 00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:03,000 And you said criticism. So that means you can be like a proper critic and give like proper critiques on plays and things. 101 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:24,000 Yeah. Yeah. And my sort of my sort of outlook on things, which informs the way I teach to is, you know, saying I like or I don't like really doesn't help anyone in their creation of theater and their creation of whatever. 102 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:35,000 I also work with a gallery in town to do similar work with some of their gallery shows teaching about the history of the art pieces. 103 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:53,000 But to ask questions about the creation and ask questions that might lead to more questions that might lead to playing with what answers might be is just such a fun collaborative way to work that playwriting doesn't have to be 104 00:11:53,000 --> 00:12:01,000 a solo endeavor. And, you know, you can it's called a play for a reason. It should be fun. 105 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:37,000 This particular guy in Australia, his name's Peter Gers and he's very, I don't know, well known in South Australia, not probably the rest of Australia and certainly not internationally, but he's a theater critic. 106 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:56,000 And over the years, he's he's he's made it. He has a radio show and he used to be an actor. And he basically I remember him saying once about critiquing theater, that there was absolutely no point in belittling people or saying, you know, they did a terrible job. 107 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:12,000 You know, it's all about recognizing the amount of effort they've gone to, what their intention was behind the piece. Maybe the delivery wasn't, you know, quite what they had hoped or, you know, beyond the level of what he might have expected or whatever. 108 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:22,000 But there's no, there's absolutely no point in just bashing people, you know, when they're having a go. Is that something you could sort of relate to? 109 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:27,000 Absolutely. I think I was taking a professional development one time. 110 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:45,000 And there was an article that we read about the power of positivity in working with something like this with with art criticism, and I absolutely burst into tears in the middle of class, because I had always been called, I don't know if you do you know the movie 111 00:13:45,000 --> 00:14:04,000 Pollyanna? Oh yes. Kaylee Mills, like the 60s or 70s. So I'd always been called a Pollyanna because I am very positive about things. And it had never, you know, being a teenager in the 90s, when, you know, it was cool to be aloof and ironic. 112 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:20,000 Yeah, but being a positive person was really difficult and being positive about things, you know, people kind of looked at it as though you didn't have a critical bone. That to be critical meant to be nasty. 113 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:34,000 And, you know, darn it, I was 15 years old, I like the Spice Girls and I wanted to be able to like the Spice Girls. Yeah, yeah, you know, but I couldn't. 114 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:55,000 You know, reading this article about the power of positivity just struck such a chord with me that it should be about buoying up what's good about things and striving to make those things that aren't at that level, to that level, rather than bringing everything down. 115 00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:09,000 Yes, yeah, that's a really good way of saying it, isn't it? It's like you're, I don't know what the word is, it's this constructive criticism, I guess. It's things that can help people to make changes or, you know, look at things in a different way. 116 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:21,000 It's not just a straight comment that's, you know, with no possibility for any further, anything. It's like, a statement that's not helpful at all. 117 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:37,000 I think like when we're talking about, you know, being, you know, so criticism doesn't have to be critical, right? So like, when I'm working with a playwright on developing a new script or a new piece of theater, you know, who cares what I like? 118 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:51,000 What I like isn't necessarily going to be the same thing that an artistic director is going to like, or that the lady in row six is going to like, or the man in row seven, they're all going to like different things. 119 00:15:51,000 --> 00:16:09,000 So what's the purpose of saying I like this or I don't like that? But what we can do is say, hey, I noticed that in Act One, your character says such and such, but that never comes back in Act Two. It seemed really important in Act One. 120 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:17,000 Was it important in Act One? And being able to ask those questions to help structure that piece. 121 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:26,000 And play, you know, I keep coming back to the word play. Play around with those answers and hopefully ask more questions. 122 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:41,000 You know, it's kind of like a, I guess, like, I mean, this is a person who knows nothing making this statement, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels to me like it's like a book editor kind of like you're looking at with eyes outside of who wrote it. 123 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:54,000 And you can pick up stuff like, like you said, like, is there a theme that seemed important then didn't get continued or something come up all of a sudden or where did that come from? Like, there's no background to this, whatever. 124 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:59,000 That's kind of, I guess, a layman's way of describing it. 125 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:12,000 For sure. So like, so the it's called like Dramaturge, which is the same as it's the German word for playwright. 126 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:34,000 And so, but we, I mean, I do write plays, but when I'm Dramaturging, that's not being the playwright. And so I kind of, so someone who practices metallurgy shapes metal into something beautiful. So someone who practices dramaturgy helps shape drama into something beautiful. 127 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,000 There you go. 128 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,000 That's so cool. I love that. 129 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,000 I learned a new word today too. 130 00:17:43,000 --> 00:18:08,000 That's awesome. 131 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:16,000 Do you recall being a child and just like how you got into your love of theater? Where did that come from? 132 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:39,000 I, that's a great question. I remember going to, I remember whether it was watching the movie Annie or going to see a play, but I remember that it was Annie specifically and looking at the children on stage and going, I could do that. 133 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:46,000 And so I started going to theater camps when I was five. 134 00:18:46,000 --> 00:19:06,000 And, you know, just kind of being in plays and my theater camp that I grew up with was also at a swim club and did kind of sports stuff too because it's trying to be all things to all people. 135 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,000 And then John Waters movie was filmed there, speaking of Baltimore. 136 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,000 So that was super fun. 137 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:26,000 But, you know, they were very specific that we had all of us had to take music and dance and make the sets and the props for the play. 138 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,000 So kind of, kind of, you know, well rounded in that way. 139 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:48,000 And then I was in all the plays in middle school, which is sixth to eighth grade here. Yeah. And then in when I was going into ninth grade, a new school was opening up that was arts focused. 140 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:54,000 And so I went there. And so I've been a theater major since the time I was 13 years old. 141 00:19:54,000 --> 00:20:03,000 And John never told us that there was anything beyond you could be an actor or you could be a director. 142 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:13,000 I mean, I guess I knew in my head that you could make scenery and things like that. But really like when you were studying, you're either going to be an actor or a director. 143 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:29,000 And I was like, you know, with acting all the way through, you know, graduating from college. And then I was a professional actor for a hot minute. 144 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:49,000 And I had always wanted to do and what I've been saying since maybe second grade was I want to teach. I want to write. I want to do theater. And when I found dramaturgy and also teaching. 145 00:20:49,000 --> 00:21:09,000 I'm an arts integration teacher for my full time job. Those things. That's what it is. It's you know, dramaturgy is using teaching to fulfill the arts and arts and teaching arts integration is using the arts to fulfill education. 146 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:21,000 And so those things really. It's what I wanted to do since I was in second grade. Yeah. And it was like, it was just. 147 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,000 You just hadn't discovered that that was a thing yet. 148 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:45,000 And it was actually my roommate when I was 22. She was she told us that she was leaving to move to another state because she got literary management as dramaturgy internship at a theater out of state. 149 00:21:45,000 --> 00:22:01,000 And at the same time, one of my friends from high school got a gig on Broadway in the show Mamma Mia. Oh, wow. And I was jealous of my roommate, but wanted to congratulate my friend who was going to be an actress on Broadway. 150 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:09,000 Yeah. I thought, wait a minute. Yeah, perhaps I need to examine my life. Yeah. 151 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:25,000 There you go. Oh, how cool is that? Yeah. And that's the thing. Like I found in. I don't know this all these little worlds that you have no idea about. You know, like in talking to people just through this podcast, like discovering all these other things you can do. 152 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:42,000 If you know you want to be involved in art, you know, you don't. Sorry. There's not just, you know, the actual painter. There's all these other things you can be. And one of my favorite chats I've had on here was with an art historian, which I found so fascinating. 153 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:59,000 I was like, I feel like I've missed my calling because I love art. I don't make it very well, but I'm really fascinated in the history behind things and the symbolism and the imagery and how they, I don't know, express their ideas through different ways and all the different styles of art. 154 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:14,000 Yeah. So this is really cool that I'm learning something. I bet you there's no one listening that has ever heard the word dramaturgy before. So, hey, and if you have, send me a message on my Instagram and I'll give you a prize or something because this is cool. 155 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:40,000 Yeah. 156 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:59,000 I'm going completely off path now that I know this stuff. Whoa, that I love it. I love it. What are your like favorite plays or things that have influenced you the most like actors or themes or anything? Just share with me things that you love about theater. 157 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:15,000 Well, I always, I think about musicals. I always think about musicals first because they are musicals are what I don't know captures everything. I don't know. I love Sondheim. Stephen Sondheim's work. 158 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,000 Into the Woods is my favorite. 159 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,000 The first act of Sunday in the Park with George. 160 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,000 The second act is not my favorite. 161 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,000 The first act is great. 162 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:41,000 I think that there is something in the way that he works his lyrics and music together. 163 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:46,000 Being the person who who is able to do both. 164 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:57,000 And I think his command of rhythms are are amazing. I felt very 165 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:10,000 content is not the right word, vindicated I felt vindicated when I was listening to an interview with him and the interviewer asked, you know, how do you come up with your rhymes and he said I use a rhyming dictionary. 166 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,000 I was like oh me too. I felt I was so excited. 167 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,000 So he's, he's wonderful. 168 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,000 His work is wonderful. 169 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:27,000 Little Shop of Horrors is another favorite of mine, Howard Ashman and Alan Menken. 170 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,000 You know before they ever wrote the Little Mermaid. 171 00:25:32,000 --> 00:26:01,000 Their work adapting and when I write plays I do adaptations, mostly their work adapting just this weird little B horror movie into this amazing, kitschy work of musical theater is incredible and there's a moment in the movie where Rick Moranis, 172 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:21,000 he does a little riff, because he's you know very nerdy, the character, and he goes, I don't know, I don't know, and his voice just changes into this amazing passionate singer. 173 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:26,000 And being able to pull that out is is wild. 174 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:34,000 I am a big, I've always been a big fan of Wendy Wasserstein, who passed away. 175 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:49,000 Oh gosh, probably almost 20 years ago now but her work was one of the first, her, she and Carol Churchill I think were the first two sort of feminist playwrights that I had read. 176 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,000 And so their work was really influential on me. 177 00:26:53,000 --> 00:27:14,000 And there's some fantastic stuff going on in small theaters. Nowadays I really wish that Broadway would go back to championing new works and not reviving the old ones I will die on the hill that Oklahoma is a subversive piece of theater. 178 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,000 It really is. 179 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:21,000 But we don't need to revive it every two minutes. 180 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:35,000 It's interesting you say that I had a conversation with, back in season two, Dr. Erica Ball, who writes contemporary classical music in the US. 181 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:49,000 And we were having this conversation about that, why people keep putting on all these shows of Mozart and Tchaikovsky and when there's all these people that are alive today, and a lot of women too, 182 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:56,000 and people of color that are writing new music and why aren't we listening to that and why aren't they being put on. 183 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:12,000 And, yeah, it was this sort of this push and pull between the audience that wants to hear something familiar, because I think they will enjoy themselves more if they know what they, you know, they know it and they feel familiar with it, or the audience that wants to feel challenged 184 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:23,000 and wants to be pushed out of their comfort zone and it's a real quandary. And I guess it probably is a similar thing because at the end of the day, these things have got to make money. 185 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,000 Absolutely. 186 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:47,000 Yes, and there's this whole conversation about how like the older people have more of the money. And so if we want to make money, we have to do what the older people quotes. Yeah, what they want to see is what they're comfortable with but what we're forgetting is that younger 187 00:28:47,000 --> 00:29:06,000 people want to be part of these conversations they want to support the arts people who, you know, can't necessarily afford, you know, to, you know, wear a suit to an evening of $500 theater. 188 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:23,000 They, they also deserve the arts they also deserve to see themselves on stage, be exposed to these different worlds and so there's, you know, yes, the arts need to make money. 189 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:40,000 And we need to, you know, keep bringing in the people who are going to pay for the things, but also not forget that there's a new and diverse audience out there who also needs to see this work. 190 00:29:40,000 --> 00:30:07,000 And there's a theater company in town here that does incredibly avant garde fantastic works and I've worked with them with dramaturgy a few times, kicking myself that I wasn't able to work on their new play, which is up this weekend, but they do these 191 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:28,000 quite specific works, and, you know, both that theater and the community theaters in town and the other professional theaters in town, make things very accessible to a diversity of audiences which I think is a really wonderful thing about our local 192 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:44,000 community here that you know yes you can go and see ragtime and Susickle, and also an immersive Frankenstein, you know, really fantastic. 193 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:52,000 Yeah, it's interesting isn't it's like the bigger things get the more mainstream they have to get to have an audience. 194 00:30:52,000 --> 00:31:20,000 And it is kind of disappointing. 195 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:28,000 So, thanks to the purpose of our discussion today, which I'm not apologizing at all for going off track and I'll probably do it again. 196 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,000 Thank you for having a grown up arts conversation with me. 197 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,000 I love it. I do love it. 198 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,000 Yeah, so how many kids have you got Jen. 199 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:49,000 I have to. I have Mickey who is 12 and Eloise who's 15 months. Oh, gorgeous. I love that name Eloise that is such a sweet little name. 200 00:31:49,000 --> 00:32:01,000 Oh, that's beautiful. So, two kids at completely different stages of their, of their growing up, how, how you finding that the gap and I'm asking that because I've got seven years between my two. 201 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:08,000 And at times it can be very challenging, but how do you sort of navigate that the differences I suppose the challenges of that. 202 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:23,000 Yeah, we were very wishy washy for 10 years about whether or not we wanted to have another baby. And all of our friends were having pandemic baby so we thought let's have a pandemic baby and so we had a pandemic baby. 203 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:38,000 And, you know, we were really, you know, honestly nervous about how Mickey was going to handle, you know, not being an only child anymore after being an only child for 10 years. 204 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:44,000 And their relationship is so sweet. 205 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,000 She started giving real hugs, just a couple of weeks ago. 206 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:59,000 And she loves they they run at each other and he picks her up and she hugs him around the neck and it's, it's super sweet. 207 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:08,000 And I really like that you know there are things that you know that we do with Mickey that Eloise can't be involved with. 208 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:19,000 You know I took him to see wicked at a theater where two hours in either direction from the closest like big city. 209 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:27,000 So I took him to one of the big cities to see the tour of wicked, and she can't come. 210 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:38,000 Or, we're taking him on a behind the scenes tour of the zoo because he wants to, he wants to be a zookeeper. 211 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,000 And you have to be. 212 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:53,000 He is, we're specifically taking him behind the scenes of the reptile house. And you have to be over eight to come to go to the reptile house so there are these things that we only do with him. 213 00:33:53,000 --> 00:34:04,000 And I think that really helps, you know, strengthen that relationship, since, you know, a lot of attention has to be on her. 214 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:17,000 You know we can't do the same nighttime routine with Mickey anymore that we used to do because Eloise has an earlier bedtime and honestly, I fall asleep with her, a lot of the time. 215 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:24,000 And, but yeah, their, their relationship is really fantastic. I was just thinking the other day that when she graduates from high school. 216 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,000 I'm going to be 60, which is very old. 217 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:35,000 You know, it'll be fine. Yeah, I've done that actually maintain that. 218 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:48,000 Yeah, yeah, that's love. That's really nice. And when you talk about that thinking to the future. I remember one day I was sitting in the car waiting at school pickup, and I worked out how many more years I'll be sitting in the car at this spot for school. 219 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:55,000 I was like, Oh my god, like, it freaked me out for a second, but you don't think about that every day. 220 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:08,000 Yeah, you just, you just get on with your life but yeah I think the saddest moment for me though like I'd never had sort of any, like, sort of regrets or anything about the age gap because it just literally it happened how it had to happen, you know, it couldn't have happened any 221 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:22,000 other way. And, but then when I realized they'll never actually go to school together. I thought, Oh, that's a shame because I really liked, you know, having my sister at school and, you know, just, I think the ease of the drop offs and the pickups you know, one location. 222 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:31,000 But I was like, Oh, and that was really the only time I sort of had a bit of a moment but apart from that. Yeah, but how did you feel. Oh sorry you gone. 223 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:38,000 It's interesting to I work at, at a small private arts based school. 224 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:58,000 And there's a preschool and I work at the elementary I used to work at the preschool. And Mickey was already in elementary school when I started working at this school so we've kept him in public school and he's really thriving in public school. 225 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:08,000 And, Eloise is already registered at the preschool for when she turns to. So for all it's 2024. 226 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:29,000 And it's just a very different, you know, kind of, kind of thing I know from being an extracurricular teacher of Mickey's he's taken some of my theater camps and I used to teach an artful yoga class where you, the kiddos do yoga and then they do an art project that gets 227 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,000 into the creative space. 228 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:39,000 And it's just it does not always work out for me to be Mickey's teacher. 229 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:55,000 And, you know, it might be completely different with Eloise that you know she might be able to be my student and so just kind of thinking about the differences between having a child in public school and having a child in private school. 230 00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:00,000 I mean I don't I don't know how she'll be, but you know, 231 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:08,000 Yeah, no, it's, and I've noticed the differences in how children are educated in the gap. 232 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:24,000 Like, I don't know just the things that Alex used to bring home the eldest about how he was taught to read and particular things around maths and then Digby the little one, it's like they use completely different jargon about talking about things and sometimes I'll 233 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:34,000 find myself saying a thing that Alex used to do like with these called chunk it up when you had a really big, really big word, and you break it into two and it did be looking at what are you talking about. 234 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:51,000 I'm like, Oh, sorry, you don't say that you say something else now. And just get just these all these little differences. It's like, it's been quite interesting because I have my backgrounds in early childhood education so I found it really interesting to see how, you know, these new, I guess new 235 00:37:51,000 --> 00:38:04,000 research has been done and things like that over the years about how you deliver your content or whatever and all the all the new technology that's around now which wasn't around when Alex was a little tucker. 236 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:14,000 Yeah, Mickey, Mickey asked the other day. He was like, Why do you keep changing my rules about how much screen time I'm allowed to have, like how much time on the switch and how much time on the iPad. 237 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:26,000 Because we don't know what we're doing. No one has ever had to do this before. Yeah, we have no idea. 238 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:45,000 I love that. Oh, I love that so much. Yeah, I'll try to figure it out. Yeah, yeah, we're the guinea pig generation when it comes to this. Oh my gosh, it's funny. 239 00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:13,000 Talking about differences, I want to chat about when you when you had Mickey and your transition to becoming a mother, compared to when you had Eloise. 240 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:22,000 How, how did you go with your own identity, I guess and the adjustments in changing from Jen to somebody's mother. 241 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:33,000 Yeah, that's great. That's a great question. Um, when I had Mickey, it was you know it's 31. 242 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:39,000 And most of my friends hadn't yet had children. 243 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:47,000 Being in the Washington DC area at that time people have children, very late. 244 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:56,000 So, I think I knew one couple who had a baby. And so kind of being like you said the guinea pigs. 245 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:02,000 At the time, and kind of having to figure this all out. 246 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:14,000 My parents were relatively close by about 45 minutes away at that time and my mom was one of Mickey's primary caregivers. While I was at work she came three days a week. 247 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:22,000 And he had sitters the other two days, or with my husband, and being able to have my mom there. 248 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:38,000 Being supportive and being really my role model of being a parent because I didn't have well because she's awesome but also because I didn't have any real peers to look at as role models. 249 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:44,000 And just kind of trying to figure it all out at that time. 250 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:53,000 Between when we had Mickey in the Washington DC area, and having Eloise here. 251 00:40:53,000 --> 00:41:03,000 You know we lived, we've kind of slowly gone halfway across the country we made a stop in Michigan which is the little mitten shaped. 252 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:15,000 Up by Canada. And so we made a stop there for two years, and then moved here. And within that 10 years in between Eloise and Mickey. 253 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:20,000 You know now that I'm in my 40s my husband's in his 40s now. 254 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:31,000 Most of our friends are finished having babies. Yeah. And so, you know, we don't feel like we're starting from scratch we don't feel like we're starting. 255 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:43,000 Not knowing anything and in fact, our friends are very thankful that we're helping them clean out their basements and garages and giving us all the things. 256 00:41:43,000 --> 00:42:02,000 But it feels. Even with all the changes you know there there are apps for everything now and, you know, having online communities now that didn't exist back in 2011. 257 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:13,000 Feels less like we're reinventing ourselves and more like yeah this is just how this is. 258 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,000 Yeah, that makes sense. 259 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:22,000 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I could kind of relate to that and the way you've heard that that kind of makes sense. 260 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:30,000 Yeah, because it's new, but it's not new in a way, you know, it's, yeah, it's familiar at the same time. 261 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:40,000 Did you have children. Yeah. Yeah. So like, you know, Mickey was sleeping in his own room at two months and sleeping through the night at four months. 262 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:48,000 Eloise moved out of our room at six months, and still isn't sleeping through the night. Yeah. 263 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:58,000 And never got the crib transfer and so we're using a floor bed with her instead of a crib and things like that. There are definitely new things to learn but it's not a complete reinvent. 264 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:09,000 Yeah, see that's interesting isn't it like my two are completely different, same sort of thing like, I know what you said then just, yeah, sounds very similar. 265 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:25,000 And it's like, you're getting to know the child, like you sort of you know the ups you know the, the physical, the caring role the routine, but it's getting to know this little person and that's something I found really actually quite exciting about having another child. 266 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:39,000 I love to putting it off for so long was that it's like, oh, I get to meet a new person and find out what they're like and what they like and what they don't like and all this sort of stuff. It was actually something I hadn't really thought of when I'm, when I, you know, the 267 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,000 overwhelm of having your first child. 268 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:52,000 It's just like, and you stop to think, yeah, when and being older to, did you find that like have physically being older yourself being older like I had digs. 269 00:43:52,000 --> 00:44:00,000 I was 29 I reckon I had him a few months before I turned 30 and digs. What's that seven years after that. 270 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:12,000 I just felt like so much more content in myself as a person, you know, especially moving quite close to 40s when I think that's the time when you literally decide you don't give a shit about anything. 271 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:32,000 Absolutely and feeling so much like, like I don't have to prove anything to anybody that I was when I was pregnant with Mickey, I was, I was the education program manager of a regional children's theater, and I was teaching theater classes, five days a week, 272 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:47,000 and I would still, you know, eight months pregnant squat down on the floor and things like this is what I do for my job and I'm with Eloise, I was at like six months I was like I can't walk up the hill to the playground anymore. 273 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,000 Get me a chair. 274 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:53,000 What else is going to happen that sorry. 275 00:44:53,000 --> 00:45:02,000 Yeah, just like, I'm going to ask for what I need and people are going to understand and that's going to be okay. Yeah, yes, that's okay. 276 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,000 Now go and you go. 277 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:09,000 Yeah, I think like a big thing for me though is that I wish. 278 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:27,000 I think this is this is always the case with people who have second children, third children, fourth children, whatever, I'm not going there. 279 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:41,000 I'm not going to be the living part, but I wish that, you know, in between the time that I had Mickey and the time that I had Eloise, my understanding of early childhood education fine motor skills gross motor skills. 280 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,000 The arts. 281 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:47,000 How to provide experiences to children. 282 00:45:47,000 --> 00:46:02,000 And the physical location that we're in has changed so much that like now, you know we go on nature walks, and there wasn't that in. 283 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:19,000 That I knew of in Washington DC, or, you know, we, you know, have these, you know, tactile experiences and toys that, you know, are more open ended and things like that. 284 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:29,000 You know I know how to create things for Eloise that I know how to create for Mickey. And so I wish that he had been able to have those experiences as well. 285 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:50,000 Yeah, yeah, I can relate to that too. 286 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:58,000 You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was a human. 287 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:04,000 Do you, I guess, this mom guilt thing it's a big one that I like to talk about. 288 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,000 What's your thoughts about that whole thing. 289 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:15,000 Oh it absolutely exists, at least for me, I can't speak for anybody else but so I'm Jewish. 290 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:21,000 And we have lots of guilt everywhere all the time. 291 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:25,000 generational trauma. 292 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:39,000 But I think it comes from so many different places that you just internalize it without meaning to. 293 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:45,000 I have my husband is incredibly supportive. 294 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:58,000 He's a wonderful dad, a wonderful partner, and I still feel bad telling him that I want to take a pottery class, because it's going to take me away from the family. 295 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:16,000 It is absolutely nothing that he has done or expressed or would do or express in fact when I tell him, hey, I really want to take this pottery class he goes, good. You should in that tone of voice. 296 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:23,000 But I feel guilty about taking that time away. 297 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:29,000 I was just talking about the positive influences of having online communities. 298 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:47,000 But there's absolutely negatives with that as well. It's, you know, I found some wonderful supportive communities but, you know, I still feel the need to say like, oh we watch such and such. 299 00:48:47,000 --> 00:49:01,000 We're not a no screen time family. Like I feel like we're not no screen time or, oh, Eloise had, oh she had a peanut M&M the other day. 300 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:10,000 And I watched her like a hawk. I mean like, yeah, it's like this caveat. Yeah. Yeah. 301 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:23,000 And so there are wonderful things about that online community and then just things that make you stop for a second, not that anyone is necessarily actually judging you. 302 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:40,000 Yeah. The assumption that someone will. Yeah, that culture that we've sort of become familiar with I suppose that that's what we should expect to happen when we share things like that. Yeah. 303 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:53,000 I found I've deliberately stopped following people that make me feel challenged like that. I feel like, oh, if such and such read this or somebody saw this, I'd feel uncomfortable. So I've really done. 304 00:49:53,000 --> 00:50:07,000 I do it every now and then. Just go through the list and go, no, actually not feeling it. And try to try to have on my feed people that I don't know, are very similar to me in their values, I guess. 305 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:13,000 It's a good way to put it. Yeah. We just started with a new sitter. 306 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:25,000 And she has a reggio Emilia background. I have a reggio Emilia background. And, you know, that can go a couple of different ways. 307 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:42,000 You could be super crunchy, you know, all the super crunchy things. Or you could potentially be, I call myself crunchy but realistic. Yeah. I exist in this world and this is where I am. 308 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:56,000 So we were interviewing, I would say, oh, you know, we're not no screen time. And she goes, you watch Bluey? Oh yeah, we watch Bluey. Oh, love Bluey. Oh, love. 309 00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:15,000 Bluey is not as into it yet as I am. But oh, it's the best. These parents. Yes. I'll tell you, last night we were watching, we had Bluey on and everyone else left the room but me. And I just sat there and watched it. I watched it for about two hours by myself laughing my head off. 310 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:23,000 Can I ask though, do you guys get the humor, the Australian humor, like that, because Bandit can be quite colloquial. 311 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:36,000 I don't think we get all of it. But I think like what goes over our heads, just like we don't know. You don't know that you don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to be a chilly healer when I grow up. 312 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:40,000 You know. She's awesome. Good old chilly. 313 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:54,000 I love the stickers in her car and like it's just feels very real. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that her car is so messy. The messy car is what I can relate to. And there was a joke in one of the episodes where her sister comes to visit and the kids have never met the sister. 314 00:51:54,000 --> 00:52:10,000 And somebody, I think it was Bingo, had a onesie on that turned her into a cheater or something. Anyway, they were hiding in the car. That's where I'm going with this. And chilly said, that's okay. We won't die because there's food under the seats. 315 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:19,000 And I was like, yes, you can see it in my car. Like, I feel really validated right now. Not judged. 316 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:27,000 Absolutely. Oh, dear. Yeah. Sorry. I hijacked. You were talking about Bluey and then you were going to say something else and I just jumped in. Sorry. 317 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:39,000 And I have to tell you that this is the way that parents in America also respond when I say Bluey. Everyone always goes do do do do do do do do. And like everybody does it. 318 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:53,000 Yeah. Yeah. This woman. I say, yeah, she goes, you watch Miss Rachel. I'm like, yeah, we watch Bluey and Miss Rachel and Sesame Street. Yeah. Oh, yeah. 319 00:52:53,000 --> 00:53:12,000 And then there was something else. We're talking about food and how we both have the same. We have the same kind of outlook on food for our kids where we like, you know, we try to be nutritious, but also where everything in moderation. 320 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:27,000 People set the kids up for positive associations with food and positive relationships with their bodies. And so it just made me feel real good that like, here's this person with this background in early childhood education and the arts. 321 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:36,000 And we have the same kind of outlook on on things and that she's not going to make me feel like I should have cloth diapers. You know? 322 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:50,000 Yeah, that's it, isn't it? And when like when you go, she does all this different stuff. It's like, oh, I'll do this while she's not here. And when she gets back, it'll be like, you know, yeah. And I don't know, like, I've been looking after kids for a long time in my job. 323 00:53:50,000 --> 00:54:14,000 And I don't know, I feel like most people are, I don't know what the word is, they are the screen time parents, they are the snack parents. Most people like that. Like that's what we are. But then the voices in the not that section are really loud and then they make us feel bad about our choices or what we do with our kids. 324 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:26,000 So I don't know how you block out the noise, but yeah, it's a hard one. It is a tough one. Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that about that. I find it really interesting. 325 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:43,000 I shouldn't say I feel it. It's interesting talking to people about their guilt. I sound like I'm like some sort of creeper. But I just find it fascinating how, you know, people's, their cultural background, the location, their upbringing and everything that goes into creating a person. 326 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:51,000 How that affects how your parent and I just find it so fascinating. So yeah, thanks for indulging me there. 327 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:39,000 Do you find that for you to create, to continue to create and not just in, you know, your profession, but also the things you do at home, like you're talking about all the things you like to do. Do you feel like that's really important for you to maintain for you, for yourself? 328 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:53,000 Yeah, I think a big thing for me, I'm a person with anxiety and depression. And I think, and I know that that's something that comes up a lot in these conversations. Yeah, it's very common. Yeah. 329 00:55:53,000 --> 00:56:11,000 I, when I found pottery, you know, I'm a perfectionist. That's part of how my anxiety manifests in perfectionism and then procrastination. Because if things can't be perfect, then why do them? 330 00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:30,000 When I found pottery, you can't be perfect with it, especially when you're first starting out. And if you make something that's awful, and you fire it, then your mom will want it. And that's great. 331 00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:42,000 And your mom always, my mom, I don't know about other people, but my mom always makes me feel good about stuff. So she's got a couple of really terrible things that I've made. 332 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:49,000 My dad also, my dad is also very excellent. They share the bathroom, but I give them to my mom. 333 00:56:49,000 --> 00:57:03,000 And if something flops on the wheel, or it doesn't work out when you're hand building it, you squish it, and you let it dry out a little bit, so it's not completely full of water. 334 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:20,000 And then you do something else, and you try again. And just knowing that it's not going to be perfect, it can't be perfect. And that is okay. And then you can squish it. 335 00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:36,000 It was just so, like my very first class, it was so just affirming. And now I can make things that you can use, and I made this mug that I'm drinking out of. 336 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:40,000 It's gorgeous. Is that blue? Is it blue and brown? 337 00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:44,000 It's like a Tiffany blue. 338 00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:45,000 Yeah, it's gorgeous. 339 00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:56,000 And then brown and I, you know, and I thank you. And I keep learning things and you can hold it and put something in it that will nourish your body. 340 00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:03,000 And, you know, I keep learning new techniques and I learned how to facet. 341 00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:18,000 I found that I was like, oh my gosh, that's so cool. I want to make everything. And right now I'm taking a class about surface decoration and I'm learning how to scratch away colors and how to do lino prints and things like that and clay. 342 00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:28,000 And it's, it's just fun. And if it doesn't work out, the stakes are so low. 343 00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:29,000 Yeah. 344 00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:34,000 But if you make something beautiful or something useful. 345 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:51,000 Those stakes are super high and like you've you've done this thing that can help nourish your body or your, your home. I find that the things that I like to do. I was thinking about this today. 346 00:58:51,000 --> 00:59:05,000 The things that I like to do theater, pottery, quilting, baking, require other people's active participation. 347 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:22,000 And so it's this nurturing instinct. These are things that sometimes maybe I do them by myself, but the people, the other people involved aren't passive participants. 348 00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:36,000 And so I find that, you know, maybe I read somewhere someone said, you know, people think I like embroidery because it's soothing and meditative but really I just get to stab something over and over again. 349 00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:40,000 And I felt that very deeply in my soul. 350 00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,000 I've never thought of it that way. 351 00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:55,000 Me either until I read that and I was like, yes, that is exactly. Yes. And when I make my quilts, it's I completely hand piece and hand quilt. 352 00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:59,000 I can't be bothered to load a Bob and I don't know how to do it. It's fine. 353 00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:01,000 It's more trouble than it's worth. 354 01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:14,000 You know, I really feel that. Yeah, I am looking at my sewing machine right now. I don't use it right there. I'm not even sewing by hand. 355 01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:39,000 But I can take it with me to a waiting room and do that there. But then when I finished a quilt, you know, you can you can snuggle or you can say, where's Eloise, or you can, you know, take it to a picnic and sit. 356 01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:50,000 And so there are these. And then with baking you eat it. That's better than having to bake. My husband does baking most of the time. 357 01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:55,000 But I, making a cake, man, that's the best. 358 01:00:55,000 --> 01:01:11,000 Oh, yes. My, my little one. He loves making cakes because he gets to lick the beaters. And that is, oh yeah, that's it. He doesn't eat it afterwards. So we make these cakes and they're sitting there like, oh, better eat this cake as I can't let it go to waste. 359 01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,000 You know, damn. Yeah. 360 01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:26,000 But yeah, it's and then we may. Yeah. And if we make something else with the batter is not that consistency. He's not interested in helping me at all. Like, it's like he just has to lick the beaters. And it's like this ritual. 361 01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:39,000 I remember as a kid, like getting to lick the beaters when, when we'd, Mum had finished her cooking and, you know, I probably always wanted the one with the most on it. So, you know, I always make sure I give him the one that he wants. 362 01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:53,000 I think the one that whatever I get, you know, I don't know. It's just creating those, the traditions, I suppose that, you know, to teach him how to do it properly too. Cause you don't, you got to not waste any of it. So, you know. 363 01:01:53,000 --> 01:02:06,000 So Mickey knows when I'm baking, if he's not involved and I go, Hey, Mickey, I have a really important job. He knows that means he gets to lick the beaters. Like that's the, he knows what his important job is. 364 01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:23,000 I love that. Cause that's the thing when your kids get older, like things that they were quite happy to do when they're starting to be on a teenager, it's like, Oh, I'm actually not interested in that anymore. But that's a lovely way that he'll probably always continue to be involved. Cause who can say no to licking the beaters? 365 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,000 Right? Right? 366 01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:54,000 That's so lovely. That's really nice. I love that. 367 01:02:54,000 --> 01:03:21,000 So with that, I mean, this next question probably won't apply so much to Eloise at this stage of her life, but with Mickey, do you find it important that he sees you as someone who's not just there? And I say just, I shouldn't say just not there only to be in a mothering role for his benefit or for the household's benefit, but you're also your own person and you do things that don't involve anybody else sometimes. 368 01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:41,000 Absolutely. I think my mom is the most incredible role model in a lot of ways. But one of those is that she, you know, she was a stay at home mom. And then when I was 10 years old, she went to college. She hadn't gone to college. 369 01:03:41,000 --> 01:04:03,000 So this wasn't going back to school. This was her first go. And so seeing that she was going and getting a degree and doing that set that as a role model for me. I mean, also partly that like, I would be struggling with my homework at the same time that she was struggling with her homework. 370 01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:20,000 And so that was a really great. It wasn't great that she was struggling. It was a great thing, a great thing to see that she was, you know, making these efforts to do something that she really wanted to do. 371 01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:42,000 And so that was sort of my role model in that way that, you know, you can be a mom, which is really awesome and also be your own person. And I always kind of struggle a little bit when I'm writing like the Instagram tagline or an artist statement. 372 01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:56,000 What do I put first? And if I don't put mom first, what does that mean for my identity? But if I do put mom first, what does that mean for my identity? 373 01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:59,000 Yeah, it's a double edged sword, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. 374 01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:16,000 Yeah. Do I want to be in an outward facing way? 375 01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:35,000 Can I get a little bit political? Of course you can. Absolutely. I'd welcome that. Yes. 376 01:05:35,000 --> 01:06:01,000 So Missouri has been making some laws that are against what my family and I personally believe about the right for every human being to be a human being. And there was a trans rights rally in the state capitol, which is just about a half hour away from where we live. 377 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:15,000 And it happened to be a day that neither Mickey nor I had school. And I asked him, I was like, hey, but do you want to, neither of us have school. Do you want to go to the trans rights rally? And he was like, yes, absolutely. 378 01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:34,000 Oh, good on him. And Eloise came too, but didn't have a choice. So, you know, but it's, you know, important. I think, you know, he can be whoever he is, whoever he wants to be. 379 01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:50,000 But I think it's important that he knows, you know, that we are all political beings and that we make choices in this world to speak up for ourselves and to speak up for other people. 380 01:06:50,000 --> 01:07:08,000 So, you know, talk about like life is politics. You can't leave politics out of a conversation. I actually just commented that on a parenting message board where they were like, oh, shouldn't, you know, can't we just have one space where we can keep politics out of it? 381 01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:20,000 I don't understand why. I just, life is politics. My body is political. My parenting is political. My teaching is political. Like life is politics. 382 01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:28,000 Yeah, literally. It's all, it all overlaps. Like we can't be who we are. We couldn't be who we are if it wasn't for the political environment that we're in. 383 01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:39,000 So absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. My parents were protesters in the 60s. So I found my dad's conscientious objector card from the Vietnam War. 384 01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:41,000 Beautiful. Yes. 385 01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:45,000 Which is pretty rad. 386 01:07:45,000 --> 01:08:00,000 But, but yeah, I think that for, for kids to know that their parents are caregivers and also that it's important for them to take care of themselves. 387 01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:04,000 Never thought about it that way until it just came out of my mouth. That's what it is. 388 01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:15,000 It's amazing in a nutshell, literally, isn't it? Like that's it. Because if you don't look after yourself, you don't care for yourself, you can't look after anybody else. 389 01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:21,000 And going back to what you're saying about involving your son in the politics, I think it's really important to do that. 390 01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:33,000 And I was having this conversation with someone, I can't remember, a while ago maybe, about the way the generation's, certainly in Australia, I'm not, you know, obviously familiar with, with how it's been going over there. 391 01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:42,000 My parents and my grandparents would never tell me who they voted for. Like they wouldn't, we have the, we have the two parties here, the main parties, you've got the Liberal and Labour. 392 01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:54,000 And Liberal is meant to be Liberal, but it's not the right word to describe that party because they're not, they're not modern, they're not progressive, they're not for the people, they're sort of the opposite. 393 01:08:54,000 --> 01:09:05,000 They're the right wingers. And the left wing is the Labour Party, which is, you know, for the working man and for the arts and for all the good things that I believe in. 394 01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:20,000 Yes. And yeah, so yeah, I didn't find out who my family voted for for a very long time. And there's also this culture over here, and I guess it's the same everywhere, that you sort of, you don't necessarily vote for who your parents voted for, because they voted for that. 395 01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:26,000 But you're brought up in that particular way that it's more likely you're going to vote that way, I guess. 396 01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:34,000 It'd be pretty radical if you sort of went off the other way, I guess. So yeah, I sort of worked it out just by accident as I got older. 397 01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:42,000 And I remember asking my Nana once, like, because it was voting day and they went off and voted. And I said, who do you vote for? She goes, oh, no, you don't ask people that. You can't, you can't ask people that. 398 01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:52,000 And I'm really glad now that the politics is such an open conversation, because, you know, my son's almost 16. We voted 18 over here. 399 01:09:52,000 --> 01:10:00,000 And it's, I don't want him walking into a polling booth one day just going, oh, OK, so what's this all about? What do I do here? 400 01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:09,000 You know, like, I want him to grow up understanding the culture that we live in and how the politics obviously, as we said before, it's a fundamental part of our lives. 401 01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:18,000 And we often joke, you know, my husband has been a Liberal voter for a long time and I've been a Labor voter forever. 402 01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:32,000 And we chat to my son about the differences and why, you know, a political in a certain circumstance or over a particular issue, why I feel the way I do and why the way dad feels the way he does, you know. 403 01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:49,000 So I'm not telling him he has to vote for either or whatever. I simply want him to have an understanding of how these parties and what they believe in will affect him as a person and the decisions that he'll make in his life moving forward and in his children's life if he has them. 404 01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:57,000 So, yeah, I'm I'm all for it. I think it's wonderful to get kids involved as early as you can, as early as is appropriate or as you believe. 405 01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:05,000 And I think it's also for your child and your family, because like you said, it's it's all intertwined. You can't have one without the other. 406 01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:13,000 My husband is actually a professor of political science. That's what brought us to Missouri. Awesome. 407 01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:31,000 And his father is also a professor of political science. Yeah. And so like he knows who his father and whose parents had voted for because, you know, he was out on campaign trails and, you know, doing research and things like that. 408 01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:46,000 With Do you know the American sitcom from the 80s? Family Ties? Oh, yes, very much. Yes. Yes. Yes. So with Alex P Keaton, who was a Reagan Republican, while his parents were hippies. 409 01:11:46,000 --> 01:12:02,000 And so I think about that pretty frequently that like, you know, you can be anything you want to be, but like, don't don't do that. It's been over the last several very scary years. 410 01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:17,000 Yes. With, you know, people are changing from what, you know, they had traditionally been voting either for better or for worse. 411 01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:32,000 And people have started having these conversations more and more frequently as, you know, you become empowered to tell, you know, especially older relatives like, hey, it's not okay that you talk that way. 412 01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:37,000 Yes, we had a member of our family come out as transgender. 413 01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:52,000 And, you know, a couple, was it just last year? I think it was just last year. And, you know, having to, you know, teach their 90 something year old grandmother. 414 01:12:52,000 --> 01:13:12,000 You know, the other relatives who are of our parents generation, you know, what that means and that they are still the same person. They just, you know, have a name and a, you know, and other stuff that fits them better now. 415 01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:22,000 And, you know, we, plus this current generation that like, we, we told Mickey, we're like, hey, here's, here's what's going on with this member of our family. 416 01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:26,000 Do you have any questions? And he's like, no. 417 01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:30,000 And we like randomly ran into this family member. 418 01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:44,000 We knew that we were going to the same place on a family vacation, but we didn't know we look around into them on the beach. Yeah, and we hung out with them for a while and then they went their way and we went our way. 419 01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:49,000 And we looked at Mickey we're like so see same same exact person. 420 01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:54,000 He looks at me he goes, I know. 421 01:13:54,000 --> 01:14:04,000 Yeah, no, like, no, like nerves or anything. It's like, yes. No. Yeah. Yeah, it's wonderful. Isn't it. 422 01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:10,000 We are, you know, of minority religion. 423 01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:15,000 But we don't wear our minority on the outside. 424 01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:19,000 I am also of a minority gender, I am a woman. 425 01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:29,000 But, you know, for all intents and purposes, at least as far as we know now, Mickey is cisgender straight white male. 426 01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:41,000 And we have spoken pretty frequently about, you know that, you know, he's got a responsibility to speak up for people who don't have those appearances. 427 01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:43,000 Yeah, yeah. 428 01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:49,000 And, you know, I'm sorry that we've had to have those conversations. 429 01:14:49,000 --> 01:15:11,000 My husband, but I'm glad that we have had them. My husband is not Jewish. And when, you know conversations about, you know, there was a right wing awful protests where they were chanting the Jews will not replace us. 430 01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:18,000 And things like that. And he was like, well, you know, conversations about the Holocaust and things like that. 431 01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:22,000 He's like, well, isn't Mickey too young to hear about these things? 432 01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:25,000 And I'm like, I don't ever remember not knowing. Yeah. 433 01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:29,000 Like, I don't remember a time in my life when I didn't know what the Holocaust was. 434 01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:31,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 435 01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:44,000 It wasn't like this moment where you remember getting sat down and told it was like part of your culture, part of your, it was there. A very visible part of, of, yeah, knowing. Yeah. 436 01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:57,000 Yeah, yeah. It's an important part of being a human being. And, you know, when people talk about bringing it back to the arts, you know, when people talk about the arts, well can't they just not be political. 437 01:15:57,000 --> 01:16:04,000 Why do actors have to talk about politics? Why do the arts are political? The arts have always been political. 438 01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:15,000 When we read Richard the third, we have to remember that, you know, Shakespeare's patron was Queen Elizabeth the first. 439 01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:23,000 And her, now I'm going to get the lineage wrong. It was either her grandfather or her father. No, it wasn't her father. It was her grandfather. 440 01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:33,000 Her father was Henry the eighth. It was her grandfather, who is the hero who slays Richard at the end of the play. Richard the third is political propaganda. 441 01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:36,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 442 01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:42,000 Theatre is always political. Art is always political. Period. Yeah. 443 01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:54,000 We actually had this big thing happen in Australia recently, or not recently now, a few, few months ago. Was it last year? I can't remember now. Time's just a construct really. 444 01:16:54,000 --> 01:17:01,000 As we were saying before. But yeah, there was this lady. She's the richest person in Australia. 445 01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:09,000 I'm not going to honour her by saying her name because I don't believe in her beliefs and her thoughts and her things. So, 446 01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:14,000 she won't be listening, so it doesn't matter. But Australians will know who I'm talking about. 447 01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:17,000 She has a lot of minds that she inherited from her father. 448 01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:24,000 And anyway, she was sponsoring one of the netball teams. 449 01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:31,000 And one of the netball players is an Indigenous Australian First Nations person. 450 01:17:31,000 --> 01:17:40,000 And she made a comment that she wasn't really impressed by the comments that this rich person's father had said about Aboriginal people. 451 01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:46,000 He'd said it back in the 80s. And it wasn't appropriate then, but never obviously got called out then. 452 01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:58,000 But so this woman's sort of response to that was to take all the money away from them, took all of their funding away so they didn't have a sponsor. 453 01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:05,000 And most women in Australia that play professional sport, they have a day job because they can't get sponsorship. 454 01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:11,000 So they're not full-time professional athletes, unlike the men who get a lot of money. 455 01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:21,000 Anyway, this rich person made the comment that sport and politics should never mix. 456 01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:31,000 And it just reminded me when you said about the arts, it's like, particularly in a country like Australia where sport is like a religion, it is like a way of life for people. 457 01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:38,000 And politics overlaps everything, like we've said. It just reminded me of that. And I thought, I'll mention it. 458 01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:43,000 I don't know why it's taken me so long to get it out. But that was my point. 459 01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:55,000 Yes, absolutely. No, I totally and I have all of these thoughts spinning in my head about like, it's the same thing has happened in America. 460 01:18:55,000 --> 01:19:01,000 We play the national anthem before all of our sporting events, which, yeah, let's take politics out of it. 461 01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:06,000 Why do we play the national anthem before all of our sporting events? Yeah, whatever. Yeah. 462 01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:14,000 But then a few years ago, people started kneeling during the national anthem. 463 01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:27,000 They don't really stand for what the national anthem stands for and got kicked off of teams and their sponsors taken away and things like that. 464 01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:39,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. That really annoyed me. That did that whole the taking the knee, like, honestly, it's a wonderful thing to do. 465 01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:48,000 And then it just got turned into this, I don't know, white persons again, taking over and saying what everybody can do or can't do. 466 01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:55,000 It's like back to the colonial days. Sorry, that's not a very nice thing to say. But that's what it reminded me of. 467 01:19:55,000 --> 01:20:01,000 You are absolutely I 100% agree with you. Yes. Yeah, it's horrible. 468 01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:07,000 Well, thank you. No, thanks for talking about that stuff. I like a good chat about politics. 469 01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:20,000 And I do. Yeah, it's and it's I do like to hear about other countries, how they're going with stuff too, because I mean, I, I consume a lot of media, particularly independent media, but there's nothing like hearing it. 470 01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:33,000 Not from the horse's mouth. I'm sorry. You know what I mean? Getting a person's perspective, living it right now. Yeah. But Jesus, some stuff going on over there. 471 01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:42,000 I watch what's happening in America and Jesus, I feel sorry for you guys. I just think, oh, can you imagine do you think one day it will actually become two countries? 472 01:20:42,000 --> 01:21:00,000 Like, is it that bad that people just have to not be near each other? And that's a really simplistic thing to say. But yeah, it's wild because like where I live would absolutely be the part of the country that I don't agree with. 473 01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:18,000 Because that's, yeah, that's who I am. And it's so interesting because the two major cities, St. Louis and Kansas City, St. Louis, in particular, is so much more liberal, liberal, like actual liberal. 474 01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:31,000 Than the rest of Missouri. But just the way that political lines are drawn. That's the thing. Our political lines are drawn just horribly. Yeah, right. 475 01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:54,000 And you know, there's, you know, Missouri is one of nine states in the country that has a compulsory Holocaust education. Right. Which is wild to me. Like, it's amazing. Yeah. But that's 100% because of lobbyists in St. Louis. Yeah, okay. 476 01:21:54,000 --> 01:22:12,000 And, you know, where I live right now in Columbia is this like, so the left is blue and the right is red. So we're in this tiny little blue dot in the sea of red. Yeah, right. 477 01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:32,000 And apparently, you know, for a major part because the university is here. But yeah, it's wild. Like it is. Yeah. It's, and like I don't, you know, people say like, well, if you don't like it, go someplace else. 478 01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:45,000 So well, you know, but then I couldn't make change happen. Not that I one person I'm going to make change happen. I know what you mean though. It's like you're abandoning the opportunity to be involved in challenging what they're happening. What's happening here, I guess. 479 01:22:45,000 --> 01:23:00,000 Yeah. But at the same time, like I know families with transgender children who are leaving the state because they have. Oh, you'd fear, you'd fear for your safety. Like, from what I've seen over here. Yeah, if that's accurate. Yeah, it's pretty appalling. 480 01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:04,000 It's really, it's really appalling. Reproductive rates as well. It's. Oh, yes. 481 01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:21,000 Oh man. All the things. Yeah. Yeah, jeepers. And it's funny though. I would say, oh, this is a reasonable guess. Almost 100% of people I've talked to on this show. I don't know if it's an arts thing, but they're always left leaning voters. 482 01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:39,000 If it's a thing about compassion and, you know, listening to people emotion sharing, supporting each other. It's always the arts people. It's just an inherent thing. Yeah. Well, it's interesting reading or I was wearing. 483 01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:55,000 I have a shirt that says I'm with the band, but it's B-A-N-N-E-D. I love that. Band books. I wore it to work the other day and one of the fifth graders said to me, you know, is that about band books? And I said, yeah. 484 01:23:55,000 --> 01:24:05,000 And she said, why do people ban books? And I said, because they don't want to ask questions about things. They just want to get rid of things that they don't understand. 485 01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:33,000 And then she gave me a big high five. But I think that that brings it all back to the power of positivity and asking questions. And I think that artists are in a specifically a uniquely appropriate place to be able to ask those questions and try to understand things that aren't necessarily part of their world. 486 01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:59,000 We talk about in education, we talk about providing children with windows, mirrors and sliding glass doors in our libraries. So the books that we have on our shelves should give a mirror so that they see themselves windows so that they can see other people's experiences and sliding glass doors so they can walk through and experience themselves with empathy. 487 01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:10,000 And I think that that is something that left leaning people are more willing to do than right leaning people are. 488 01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:37,000 Yeah, yeah, that was very well said. I love that. 489 01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:52,000 I actually have we have a family from Australia in our school. Yeah, and students because we have an emerging curriculum. We get to just answer the questions that the kiddos are interested in exploring. Yeah, give them education. 490 01:25:52,000 --> 01:26:09,000 And we were talking about, try to remember what exactly we were talking about. Oh, we were talking about if cultures all over the world celebrate things in December in exactly the same ways. 491 01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:22,000 Yeah, and so they understand their celebrate, you know, we don't celebrate holidays at work, but obviously like most of the kiddos in our school celebrate Christmas. So we talked about Christmas a lot. Yeah. 492 01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:33,000 And so they're like, well, Christmas is snowmen and reindeer. And so we talked about how reindeer are from Lapland and where Lapland is. 493 01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:44,000 And then I asked Karen, who's the mom from Australia, I was like, Can you come in and talk to my class? 494 01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:55,000 How you celebrate Christmas in Australia? Yeah, absolutely. So she brought like Christmas crackers and stuff and it was super fun. They were all like, wait, there's no snow. 495 01:26:55,000 --> 01:27:05,000 And he's like, no, it's summer. It's super hot. We're sweltering. But we wish there was snow. Yeah, it's fascinating. 496 01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:34,000 Fantastic conversation. 497 01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:43,000 So one of your questions that you had on your website was me to find new ways to work so you could continue creating. Yes. Yes. 498 01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:52,000 I thought that was super interesting because I actually didn't start doing any of this until I had kids. Yeah, right. 499 01:27:52,000 --> 01:28:16,000 So I was a theater, so I was doing all the theater stuff, which has definitely changed since I had kids. Yeah. But I didn't discover the visual stuff until when I was teaching in the theater and realized, 500 01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:27,000 Oh, if I was going to teach theater to kindergartners and first graders, I was going to need to learn how to teach visual arts. Yeah, because I was going to have to have them sit down and draw things. 501 01:28:27,000 --> 01:28:38,000 And I was going to have to, you know, have them create things. And so it wasn't until I was in my late 20s that I started doing those things. 502 01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:53,000 And that was completely inspired by my students I was teaching. And just having discovered I didn't pick up a ukulele until I was pregnant with Mickey because I wanted to have an instrument that I could play for and with my child. 503 01:28:53,000 --> 01:29:17,000 Yeah. And so, you know, baking came about after I had Mickey really because I wanted that sensory thing to do with him. And all of these things have come about relatively recently quilting in December 2020 because I wanted something that I could do during the 504 01:29:17,000 --> 01:29:32,000 pandemic. Yeah, at my house. And so I knew myself as a theater creative, but I didn't know myself with these other things until I was already a mom. 505 01:29:32,000 --> 01:30:00,000 Oh, hey, that's really cool. Yeah. 506 01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:12,000 It's been so lovely chatting with you Jen. I've really really enjoyed it. It's been great. And yeah, again, thank you for indulging me in the political side of things because that is one of my favorite things to talk about. 507 01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:22,000 But it's been fascinating and learning all about the dramaturgy which I didn't even know was a thing. And I just yeah it's it thank you for sharing so much I really appreciate it. 508 01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:28,000 Absolutely. Thank you for having grown up conversations with me they can be few and far between. 509 01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:35,000 I'm happy to indulge anytime you need one just let me know. 510 01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:48,000 Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend you think might be interested. 511 01:30:48,000 --> 01:31:00,000 The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alemjo, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband John. 512 01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:05,000 If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. 513 01:31:05,000 --> 01:31:12,000 If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. 514 01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:18,000 I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. 515 01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:44,000 Yeah. 516 01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:13,000 Yeah. 517 01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:43,000 Yeah. 518 01:33:12,000 --> 01:33:13,000 Yeah. 519 01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:43,000 Yeah. 520 01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:13,000 Yeah. 521 01:34:42,000 --> 01:34:43,000 Yeah.

Kate Mildenhall Australian writer, podcaster and educator S2 Ep26 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Welcome back to 2022, Season 2. My first guest of the year Kate Mildenhall, a writer, educator and podcaster from Hurstbridge Victoria on Wurundjeri lands, and a mum of 2. Kate is the author of two novels. Her debut novel, Skylarking , (2016) was named in Readings Top Ten Fiction Books of 2016 and longlisted for Best Debut Fiction in The Indie Book Awards 2017 and the 2017 Voss Literary Prize and The Mother Fault (2020) which was Longlisted for the 2021 ABIA General Fiction Book of the Year and Shortlisted for the 2020 Aurealis Awards, Best Science Fiction Novel. Kate also co hosts The First Time podcast a podcast with fellow author Katherine Collette about the first time you publish a book, and she is currently working on her third novel and undertaking a PhD on creative process. ​ We enjoy a lively chat about failure, creating in a covid world, judgement of mothers, how her mothering influences her writing and why everyone should think like a 40 year old woman. ​ **This episode contains mentions of post natal depression* ​ Kate website / Instagram Twitter @ katemildenhall Books mentioned Rufi Thorpe article - Mother, Writer, Monster, Maid Four Thousand Weeks - Oliver Burkeman The Divided Heart - Rachel Power Making Babies - Anne Enright Listen to Claudia Carvan read The Mother Fault on audible Purchase Kate's books here Podcast instagram / website ​Music used with permission from Alemjo - Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome back to season 220 22. My guest today is Kate Mildenhall, a writer, teacher and podcaster. From her speech Victoria orangerie lens, and a mom of two. Kate is the author of two novels her debut novel skylarking, released in 2016, and her most recent released the mother fault from 2020, Kate also co hosts the first time podcast with fellow author Catherine collet. About the first time he published a book, she's currently working on her third novel, as well as undertaking a PhD on creative process. Today, we enjoy a lively and fun chat about failure, creating in a COVID world judgment of mothers, how her mothering influences her writing, and why everyone should think like a 40 year old woman, I hope you enjoy. Thank you so much for coming on case. Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's delightful to chat to you. It's lovely to meet you. Let's share with the listeners. what your background is in what you create. Well, these days, I am a writer. So I've written a couple of books. And my last one was called the mother fault. My first was called skylarking. And I'm currently working on my third book and just added a PhD because you know, COVID times was like times to do crazy things, right? So I'm doing that so and beautifully at the moment. I'm getting to do that, you know, full time in whatever kind of capacity being a full time writer is what that looks like. I know, it looks like really different things for different people. But that's what I do. eautiful So, can you share what your new book is gonna be called? Are you still working on a time we're still working on that one. And I've actually just been away for a week, which says lots of things both about motherhood and guilt and Christmas and being an artist and to work on it. Because it's just been so crazy to try and work on creative projects during the homeschooling and the rest of it. I'm over here in Melbourne. And and I've exploded the book. I've I've I've done something quite radical with it. So that's fine. Just letting it simmer all the all the crazy things I've just done. But yeah, but it's been really fun. I've been working on that for about a year because the mother fault came out last year in the midst of of lockdown. So yes, I've been I've been working away. Oh my goodness. So what's your PhD? So the PhD is is it's really fun and exciting. It's at RMIT. And it's practice based. So it means that I get to do my writing. And I also am a podcaster. So I co host the first time podcast, which is interviews with writers. And a lot of just oversharing myself and my co host Katherine about our general publishing journeys. And, but I get to include all of that. So I get to include the my kind of interviewing and my obsession with creative process because that's what I am utterly obsessed with. So I'm and then my novel is kind of part of it as well. So it's a little bit different to a traditional kind of PhD. So I'm looking really particularly at journaling, and dealing with the kind of creative process and how writers do their thing how writers do their process. That sounds really fun. Like it sounds like it's just it's just a part of what you're going to be doing anyway. So it's not going to be like a tremendous I mean, I'm not saying it's going to be you know, hard to make your life anyway, but it sounds quite doable. Yes, and like it's almost like it's given it a kind of a shape all of the other work that I do you know sometimes when you're in a position and you can describe vibe, you know, this is my writing, this is the podcast and it all kind of links, you know, and having the PhD kind of around that goes, oh yeah, this is really validating to me, because it's a serious thing that I'm doing. Yeah. And also just community. Yeah, you know, I think one of the things that happens when you're writing often and might in before I was a teacher, so I was really used to having lots of people around me and a big collaborator. And so I have often found the writing process to be quite lonely. And so even just having the system of the PhD and colleagues and supervisors and to be able to part be part of that network already, like I'm in the six months in MIT, it's, that's wonderful. Yeah, so it's really meeting that need the that creative space that Yeah, to do so. Also, now the kids are really excited, cuz they like, oh, my gosh, you're gonna be adopted one day? Yes. So they're super pumped about that? Before we get to the kids, I know that was you gave me a beautiful segue there, but I'm gonna go take you back. Yeah. Did you do have you always been a writer? Or you know, when you? No, no, no. So I was at school, like, passionately into it kind of wanted to be a writer, wrote lots, you know, at high school and did the Friday anthology and won awards and things like that. And then I wanted to do this tape degree, Brian MIT writing and editing as, when I left, I went talk to the careers teacher about it. And apologies to people who've heard this story, if any of your listeners had, because I've told it so many times, but the TAFE their careers teacher said, Kate, Smart Girls don't do TAFE and basically said, don't do that course. And I was like, Ah, right. And, you know, not having not having kind of much goal of my own at that stage. I went off and did something else, which I promptly dropped out of, you know, after a year and went off traveling. But I went back and did that, that that course, eventually, which is the delightful thing, but no. So I went and traveled for a while, then I went back to uni and did teaching. And at that time, I kind of, I was writing a little bit like journaling a lot, but writing a little bit, and I, I put something in for a competition, and I didn't get anything, didn't, didn't get anything at all. And after all of these years of like, you know, winning things or getting commended in them. It was such a rude shock to me. I mean, I laugh at it. Now I tell this story to students because and they have a laugh at my expense. But I just I saw it as a huge failure and rejection. And I was like, Oh, I can't I can't write, I'm not going to write. And so I stopped. I stopped for like, all of these years, and I taught and you know, I was passionate about reading about teaching writing, and but I just I, other than my journal, I don't think that I wrote anything during all of those years. And then it was actually when my firstborn arrived that I felt compelled to write again. So yeah, so I writing wasn't, I never thought that I could be a writer when I grew up or that you know that that was a crazy outlandish kind of a thought. It's really interesting you say about that validation that you put that entry in, and it didn't get anything. And then that defines how you feel about your creativity. I had a similar experience years ago, because I used to do in a we had to do a Stanford's when we were proud of this group. And I was used to doing pretty well. And then I went in this larger competition and didn't even place and so I stopped performing. Because I'm not as good as I thought I was. You know, and for years, I let that define me that I wasn't, I wasn't as good as I thought I was. So I just went well, I must be very good anymore, isn't it? It's how do we it's ridiculous. I know. And, and heartbreaking. And often, when I'm talking about it with other writers, I'll say, you know, prepare for it and expect it and like get them in early, get as many values as you can eat early because I wasn't you know, I wasn't I hadn't developed any muscle in that area. So I so exactly like you say I just I did let it define me and like what a waste. I mean, I eventually came back to it. And I'm so glad and I think that you know, anyone who is an artist of any description probably has that kind of pulse in them that it's going to come out at some stage like you've got to make space for that at some stage or else it'll eat you up. And I'm so glad that it did. But I still think gosh, those, those wasted years in there as well. So these days, how do you view that kind of experience? Now? Like, if if you put yourself in something and you don't get it? How do you process that for yourself? That's such a good question. The, the, the last one that I had was actually, in the middle of the kind of process of the mother fault. I, I lost the original publisher and had to go and kind of start, start shipping it out again. And I was in, you know, I was broken for a little bit like it was it was rock bottom, I, I didn't think that I would be able to look at the manuscript again, I was hurt, and yet felt a lot of self loathing, I think. And what I realized during that period, was that I was going to do the damn thing anyway. You know, like that, I think that I had got to a point where I was like, Well, I don't care. I'm going to, you know, this, this book is kind of bigger than may sounds a bit wonky. But you know, we're in that sense, where you're like, I've got to see this thing through to the end, and see what it does. And so that was the thing, in the end that that got me through, and I think it's just layers, isn't it of rejection and failure along the way. I mean, you know, often, and you might be in the same position that, you know, people will say, Oh, yeah, but you your published like, How could anything ever go wrong from here, or you've got the thing, you know, you've already reached the goal, or you've been able to perform there or do that. And, and, I mean, the stakes just get higher, in a sense, and you just get rejected more publicly, with, with bigger stakes along the way. So yeah, yeah, that, that it's been a good, it's been a good learning process. For me, I think. And I just, I really do wish that I just failed more and failed more often. I think, too, when you're younger, no one sort of teaches you how to how to fail, like no one, no one says, Okay, now that now that you've lost, or they were better, or someone thought they were better, what how do you talk to yourself about that? Like, how do you do that, like, no one teaches so true. So you sort of know, just find your own way through. And unlike in both of our situations, it takes a long time. So you sort of think, gosh, if I hadn't done that earlier, what could I have achieved, you know, in all that time and space, instead of pushing things away, you know? Yeah, yeah. I agree. Teachers listening tapes. Had a flat. And that's I'm going on a tangent now. But that's the thing too, like, are we so afraid of those emotions that we don't want kids to lose? We that's why we give them everyone gets a for trying sticker and everyone gets Yeah, more than when we play pass the pass like kids parties. Everybody has to get a wrap up? You know, I know. And it's really hard. Everyone has to keep one has to be happy all the time. Yeah, I think that the hardest thing to do you find like sitting with your kids disappointment, and all those emotions that you can't fix, you know, something going on at school, and you just have to have to resist the impulse to try and fix it and make it make it better all the time. You know, and to take the discomfort away because it's, you know, you do have to feel all those horrible emotions and get and get used to them. That's thing if you don't have the opportunity to feel them, you could never work through them. So then all of a sudden you feel them and you go, what's this? I don't know what to do with this. And yeah, you deal with it in inappropriate ways. Like eating too much or drinking. Absolutely. All of the above. Oh, my gosh. Let's lean into your children. Tell us about your family. Okay, so I have I have two daughters. Gracie is my eldest. She's 10 going on 11 kind of you know, going on 19 And she is fiery and amazing. And then my youngest is Etta. And she's eight. Also fiery and amazing. And, you know, it feels very funny kinda I'm talking about them. At this point, I was actually really looking forward to, you know, to doing this because the book that I wrote is the last one is very much informed by my experience of motherhood. But you end up kind of packaging it in certain ways, like for the book world, you know, you package it in these kind of little sound bites. And, and in fact, the girls think it's hilarious because they were around so much when I was doing promo for the book, because we were all in lockdown. And they, they got really cross a couple of times, because they must have heard me say things like, you know, parenting is really hard. And I didn't like it all the time. Like, yeah, it's true, you know, and I'm gonna have to live with the fact that there's all these sound bites out in me talking about, you know, how kind of shit parenting has been at various times. But they are, they are glorious beings. We've just spent a lot of time together in the last 18 months. And, you know, it's kind of, I never realized the joy of watching them go off to their independent things, and all come back at the end of the day and be able to like, we've all done different things for the day is a very new and strange experience that I think only parents who've lived through this kind of last 18 months really understand. So they're my two. Yeah, they've done things during the day that you don't know about. That would be nice. Yeah, exactly. We're all really, really excited to tell each other about what? Oh, my goodness. So during that time, how did you manage to continue to do stuff during lockdown? Ah, we, you know, we didn't I think we just we just kept on failing beautifully. And when we first went in, so who even knows when that was maybe March, last year, I'm I'm sitting here in this little studio that my darling partner built for me in the backyard, and it was just finished, like, literally just finished the week before locked down. Where Of course, he also moved home and had to kind of write out do his work from home as well. He's a psych nurse. So he was kind of out and about, but also doing a lot of his work here. So this saved us having this actual separate space, because I used to work in the corner of the lantern. So I actually don't think that we would have survived at all, had we not had this. And the other beautiful thing was that because Adam, you know, his workplace was really good and quite flexible, so that he could do a lot of the homeschooling stuff in the mornings and then go out, you know, we just kind of juggled a bit between each other. And, and the kids, we live, we live kind of on the outskirts of Melbourne, there's a lot of trees, there's a big reserve behind us, like, I did feel extremely lucky that we had a bit more space around us. And, and we did you know, some of it, maybe the first two locked, it wasn't really, some of it was really lovely. And I think we did do that stuff of going, okay, we can have a fire in the backyard on a Wednesday night. And, you know, I would walk with one of the girls in the morning before they started just to give them a bit of space away from each other. And we did really pay attention to the flowers and the mushrooms and the birds and you know, so So for all that it was incredibly difficult. And there's also quite a few kids in our street. And we live in, you know, a little space where we could offer each other that support with other families and, you know, playing in the street, and across driveways and things like that. So I think really, we didn't you know, I lost a fair bit of work but but was still able to carry on, you know, we weren't in a really difficult kind of position with our jobs, and Adam kept his job. So for all those things, I think, you know, we were in incredibly, incredibly lucky. But also, as I said, to all of my mates and all of our WhatsApp threads, who had kids, you know, as we all kind of know, you know, we would all spiral down at certain points and just say like, I can't do this, I cannot do it anymore. I can't because it was never part of the deal that we signed up for right as parents, especially when then especially when you've already sent them out into the world and off to school and the rest of it like to suddenly have these big, curious, active social kids home with you all the time. And we're just we're just not equipped to provide everything that was partly out of the better the deal. Oh, man, look, hats off to you guys over there like we've we've had Touchwood we've had nothing as extreme as that. So yeah, you guys were often in our thoughts over here, all the Melbourne people, it's just unreal what you've been through. So, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, it's sad, and to be able to maintain your creativity maintain. Yeah, and I think creativity, you know, at times, and I've talked about this with a few friends in the writing world. You know, I was like, oh, gosh, maybe I should just go and train, retrain, I'll retrain to be like, a personal care attendant, or, you know, like, if there was that sense of, like, what is the point of doing my art in, you know, in a burning world, in a burning world, in a world that's collapsing, and so there was that pressure, but also the kind of focus or deep work that I find I need to do creative work just wasn't there, you know, I couldn't you at any stage knew you're going to be interrupted, couldn't get purchase on any kind of thought to go deep on it, I am often need to go away, or that's the way that I've done my kind of writing practice is that a few times a year, when it works, I'll go away for a few days, either with a writing group or on my own and, and go really deep on it. And that's where I find you know, I have real breakthrough, so to not have any of that, but also to not have any of that kind of friction of being out in the world, you know, and, and seeing people or interacting with people or observing things, or being able to go to the ocean, or all the things that would normally fill me up so that I have some kind of something to give some output. Whereas I felt like what what do I possibly have? I've been inside my house, with my children, you know, worrying and that anxious, you know, that kind of being in lizard brain mode of at any stage about that uncertainty, but also thinking? Am I supposed to panic now? How am I protecting my children, you know, and being fearful of other people, for the first time was a very strange kind of thing. And I think it'll take a while for us all to get to the other side of that. Hmm, absolutely. It's sort of I had a moment where I was going for a walk one day, and all of a sudden, I just thought, oh, shit, has that person got COVID? Like, I was just starting to panic. And I felt myself sort of shiver and, and I just sort of backed up and went home real quick. I thought, this is a horrible thing to be thinking. Yeah, well, but it was like, and then every time you turn the telly on everything on the radio, you just couldn't escape it. And it was just disastrous. So that's when I basically came into my studio and started music, more music stuff, I just had to get out of the current world and go back into a different world. So you found it. So you could do that. You could then put your energy into that space. Yeah, that's I basically had to, I use it as an escape. Maybe. I just had to end. What I ended up doing was I look, I was I was listening to a lot of older music, I think to take myself out of the current time space to Yes, yes. So I started doing covers of, of older songs. And I ended up releasing them all because it was like, I created different versions of the songs, got different backings, got a piano player, change the tempo, all this stuff. And it was sort of my way of looking back on it. Now. I don't think I realized at the time, but, but making sure that things were different. That changing. I didn't like what was happening. So I was changing it in some way. You know, I love that. Yeah. It's really that's the first time I've actually articulated that out loud. That's really interesting. Well, it's very profound. You mentioned before about your mother's hope novel, now you write fiction. So yeah, at school, I could never remember the difference. That's your struggle. I'm just, yeah, fiction made up, which means it's made up. But you mentioned that your mothering role had a lot of influence over that. So what sort of themes were you exploring in the book and I apologize, I haven't read your books. No, absolutely. Read say that. Because I I'm not a very good reader. I don't like to sit still and read. Isn't that terrible? No, not at all. Not at all. Then they, the mother fault is a it's a kind of a thriller. It said in the very near future, and it's about a woman MYM, who's got two kids, Sen. Sam and when the novel opens, her husband, Ben has gone missing on an overseas mine site. And in this very near future, Australia, everyone has tracking chips in their hands. But he's offline, they can't work out where he is. And very quickly, she's told to stay where she is, and not to investigate it any further. And so she does. So she does, because they kind of threatened to take her kids away from her. And she says stuff this, I'm gonna go and find him. And so she goes on the run. So she crosses Australia, with the two kids and then gets on a yacht and, and sails to Indonesia to try and search for him. So, you know, where the idea came from. My first book was historical fiction, so nothing at all in this kind of world. But when I finished skylarking, I was kind of sitting with this idea of the kids at that stage. Maybe Esther was like, two and Gracie was four, I think. And I was deep in that bit that those trenches where you like, wow. Not at school yet. So you're doing that kind of childcare, kinder, you know, crazy run every day is no more than kind of two hour, lots of anything. And I, and still that period, where it's just really hard. It's just really hard, you haven't I hadn't kind of totally I'd had this moment when the book came out of kind of re re identifying as, as, as a writer, and while I'm a professional out in this world, but also, then I just come home, and it's just, you know, back to packing snacks and feeling guilty about them not being organic, and the rest of it. And so there was that stretch, there was that kind of huge amount of feelings, both positive feelings, I adore these kids, I will do anything for these kids, I would kill for these kids at the same time as sometimes wanting to run away. So there was those feelings that I had. And at the same time, it was very deep in the political kind of craziness of the asylum seeker debate, and which, of course, we haven't at all fixed or done anything good about in this country. And so I was kind of like having that daily thing of the news of watching, particularly women who were, you know, crossing oceans in really unsafe ways to try and make their kids safe. At the same time going, I just want to run away from my kids like, how, how are these two? How can I reconcile these feelings? Yeah, so for that reason, you know, over time, I realized that I wanted to write about a woman, you know, on the run, trying to kind of protect our kids, but also trying to make sense of who she is, and what she's allowed to want. Now that she's a mother, and is she allowed to want the things that she used to want. She you know, she has a kind of crazy affair with an ex lover on the boat, in, in the book, not not a real spoiler, because lots of people talk about it when they read the book. And, you know, it was that kind of thing. And people have got cross, like, it's one of the things in the book that people are really cross about. Because that, I think, when we, when we look at mothers in fiction, and mothers in general, in society, we have all these expectations of how they're supposed to behave and how they're supposed to feel, and what they're supposed to prioritize. And if you kind of, you know, poke the bear, I suppose, and say, well, maybe this isn't what, what we want, or what we always want, and maybe it's complicated. You can get some big responses out of people. So, you know, that's what I kind of wrote in my, my feelings. I also, you know, there's a kind of thread of, it's not named, but postpartum depression, which I think I probably had but never really understood. The first time around with my first with my first daughter. Yeah, so everything, all of the feelings, all of the feelings, I kind of composited into the book. Did you find that was the way view of you're dealing with that stuff? Like you use that as a way to work through things? Yeah, I do think so. I think I was so compelled at that point to write about the motherhood experience, and in a way where I really wanted him to be kind of this superhero figure. And in fact, beautifully a couple of reviewers have kind of commented that you know, like, she's the kind of Jack Reacher of she's just like mum version of Jack Reacher and I love that. I love that because it was about it. saying, you know, I definitely don't have any answers in there. But, but being able to talk about it and being able to look at this idea that instead of, instead of what I feel like there's some pressure to do, which is to say, oh, okay, I'm a mum now. And so now I do things in a, in a mum way, like, I erase this kind of version of myself that was there before, which, it just seems so crazy, but I think to a level where or compelled to do that a little bit like, okay, you know, now we do things this way. And, and it was great to be able to examine this, this feeling of going on, I am still that young version of myself too. As part of it, I went on a yacht, I'd never been on a yacht before. And I, I crude, I volunteered to crew on a yacht, from Darwin to Indonesia, in a race. And, like, it was, it was crazy. It was one of the craziest things I've ever done. And it was incredible. And part of what was incredible about it is that it was scary, you know, and, and I, I reached new levels of fear. And when I was underneath, you know, at one night in my cabin, before, when I came off the late shift and thinking, we're going, you know, this boat is going to tip over which of course, that's not what happens. But if you think I'm gonna die in this boat, and that's going to be ridiculous. And my daughters are going to think, Oh, Mom was doing this stupid research for a stupid book. And she drowned in the middle of the table. It's a, but when I got to Amazon as well, I got to travel around a bit. I stayed there for a few extra days. And on my own, like traveling on my own, like I hadn't, you know, kind of really ever, but also, I remembered that my 19 year old self who was a backpacker who, who could make a decision on the corner about which way they were going to go and not to reach consensus with an entire family about what they wanted to eat or what snack they wanted it. You know, it was remembering that kind of that kind of sense of myself, which I think was powerful. Oh, that's incredible. That's, that is so good. And that's when you had your sordid affair. Yeah, no, definitely not. That part wasn't true? Yeah, that's that is so cool. Because what you're saying about society's expectations of what a mother should be? I feel like that is that that's what seems to drive the mom guilt. I think it's like, you see, or you do a post on your socials or whatever, or you see someone else's. And there's all these comments and you think, across what are we supposed to be doing then? Are we supposed to be spending time with the kids? And we're not supposed to be spending time? Are we supposed to be going getting our hair done? Without? Like, it's all this constant? Yes. Judgment. Yeah. Yeah. How do you do that? So I think, you know, I actually had a gorgeous, gorgeous dinner last night with, with very old friends that I went to school with. And, you know, as always, as we talk about work and life, and our marriages and our kids, you know, we were commenting and we've all just we're in the the years of old turning 40 that we've just reached part where we an excuse the language, you can put a language you want to have no fucks left to give. And, you know, but but we were commenting, like how that's been a slow process, and that in all those early years, like, all those things, am I packing the right snacks? How many cakes? Should I bake for the cake store? Should I be on the Kinder committee? Should I you know, how will we how are we approaching this way of parenting the kids like, just constant self judgment, constant comparison? And then additionally, if you're a creative, so you've got all that world over there, and then if you're a creative, you've also got the like, how much of myself can I give to my parenting and how much of myself can I can I keep over for my art and how selfish I was just rereading this amazing article by roofie thought which I'll send through to you. It's called Mother writer monster made and it was something that I was really touchstone for me while I was writing the book, and it's about her kind of really grappling with this idea of, I think it's Jenny awful, who says about being an art monster, like, you know, that, that, that there's this sense that throughout history, you know, all of the, you know, the old white male writers like they just set up in their studios or whatever their attics writing while they had a wife to do everything else, they didn't see their children, they could, they could spend all of their energy, all of their intellectual space, all of it on, on doing their work. And I don't, I don't want to do that, like I, I do want to kind of be involved and go down and see the carols at lunchtime and do those things. Like I feel very lucky that it's worked out in a way that I do get to be present. But also sometimes I do not sometimes I want to go away for two weeks and work on my book and forget, honestly, forget for a minute that I have children, because I think part of it is that that enormous part of our brain, which is constantly, constantly with the kids somewhere, you know, worrying about or just ticking over slightly, you know, have they got something today? Have they got that bag, all that present that I need to get, you know, and then and then the biggest thing is, are they happy? Have we made the right decision? Should we send them to an alternative school sheet, you know, all of the things that just wind around in your head all the time? And sometimes I think, Wow, if I? What could I do with that space? You know, what can I do with that space? And I think I had the most I had the beautiful kind of opportunity to interview Helen Garner for our podcast. A couple of weeks back, you bring that up? Well, it was incredible. But you know what I had? I you know, I've read her for so long. And I asked her about why she hasn't had to answer the motherhood questions so much. I mean, she talks about motherhood in her journals, particularly, but I was kind of wondering whether it was just my age that she did get asked that, you know, maybe when she first published monkey grip, and she says, this most glorious thing about, you know, when she had her daughter who's about to turn 50. So that gives you a sense, or who's a bit older than 50, I think. She said we didn't have a choice. Like it wasn't a decision to make, we just had kids, there was no anxiety about it, there was no thinking that it was a choice. And she's she tells this beautiful story about you know, for better or for worse that basically she kind of strode out into life. And she, she told her daughter to, you know, to kind of keep up. And she and she, you know, typical Garner always says, I don't know if that was the right way to do it. But that's how I could do it. And I and and she acknowledges also that there's just an an incredibly different level of anxiety around even the decision to have children now, which has made it all the more complicated. Think, yeah, because everything is a decision and you're so conscious about what am I saying? Yes to what am I taking away from my kids? Should I just be sitting here kind of being around for them? Or should I go out and do the thing that I really want to do, which takes me away from them, but, you know, maybe in 20 years, they're going to say, Gee, mom really did what she loved. You know, that's what you have to kind of hope right? across you. Be in therapy talking about us? Exactly, exactly. We can I mean, we can't do it. Right. You know, there's ways that we can, I suppose, try and mitigate against a failure and really bad ways every day for them. But I, I have got better we talked about failure before I've also got better at realizing that um, you know, I'm going to stuff this gig up this parenting gig up constantly, constantly, I'll stuff it up and, and being able to say that to the kids as well, you know, maybe is, is one way of getting through it. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I wasn't even. You mentioned, do you have girls have heard you say comments like that, while you're at home doing you your book launch? Is it important to you that they actually see that you are going out and doing stuff? I don't want to say not just being a mom, because there's no Yeah, being a mom? Of course, you're I'm hearing that. Yeah, no, it really is. And you know, the first time that that was truly validating, so I went on mat leave from at that stage. I was working in this at the State Library doing education there. And I went on mat leave. And that's when I realized I think I said before, you know, when Gracie was born, I just felt this extraordinary urge to write again and it kind of came at me in different ways. I tried to join a local writing group, it didn't work then you know, and not until Esther was born. Did I really go Okay, that's it. I'm gonna I'm going back to uni. I'm going to do it. And which led to some of the first kind of guy games that the kids played when they were, you know, doing imaginary play, were picking up laptop bags and going to you playing going to uni. And I thought I remember thinking, Oh, this is a good thing, let you know, like that they are seeing me do this, that it's this kind of crazy working life that I have. But they're, you know, incredibly proud of it. They like googling me, they think that's really fun. But, you know, and so they liked that part of it. On the other hand, it you know, at some point they will, maybe they will read, the mother felt and that's terrifying. Like, I think I will feel really unscanned by that process, because I you know, it has, it is really revealing of the fact that sometimes you don't want to have to be both, you don't want to have to be a mother and artist and friend, and you know, partner and all of those things. You just like, just give me some space, just do one thing. But But I also think I've tried to be really open, the kids have seen me at rock bottom, the kids have seen me on the days where I've had to close the door and have a cry and say, just let me have a cry, Nia, you know, I need I need time out. And for better or for worse. That's the kind of way that we've run with it. So hopefully, they will, you know, they will see that as an honest part. But I am conscious to that. You know, I haven't written memoir, and I think it must be really hard for people who are writing nonfiction and kind of living living their lives. And their children's stories far more openly. Like I'm conscious of that. And I do read with with close interest how people navigate talking about their kids, when they start to have a profile in terms of what their art does as well, I think that's just hard. I don't have any answers to that. Is you have to think you'd have to be so considerate of them. Have them exactly be so aware of. Yeah, it can be quite hurtful for them. You know, it's Yeah. And as they start to talk about, you know, I think one of the things that happened which is really funny in the process of it took me four years to write the mother fold is that, you know, Gracie, Gracie grew up, and I and so I changed the one of the characters se she actually grew older, I made her older in the course of it because it was suddenly became so fascinating talking with my daughter, you know, like, when they get to that part where they start, you know, you start having really interesting kind of conversations and they're curious and and they've kind of leveled up in the intellectual stakes. So much so that you think whoa, whoa, what have we got ourselves into here? This is a real little human who has like, really big thoughts about the world. So you know, that's interesting as well, to me, that's, that's wonderful. And I love their perspective or perspective on the world and the way that they can so throw you with their truthiness. Sometimes, oh, gosh, yeah. I work in childcare. That's That's my day job. And I see you get those. I'll never tire of the amazing things children really funny things, but things yes. Just makes you stop and think and go, Oh, my gosh, you're seeing the world in such a different way to me and it's wonderful. You know, it might pull yourself back of seeing this whole you know, where they're oblivious of so much stuff and it's wonderful love to be able to be like that again. Be overawed by all these big things that are happening and just be concentrating on this. This crayons not not the crown the next sharpening biggest thing in my world right now is to get that sharpener, or I'm not gonna be able to do what I need to do you know, just Yeah. Oh, just living so simply and in the moment, in the moment, not worrying about not worrying about you know, the possible trials that will come when they're teenagers. I love that they're doing it right. It's beautiful. I love that. Do you think that that huge desire and drive that you had to get back into your writing when when Gracie was a baby was that some of that born from sort of finding your, I don't wanna say, reclaiming your identity, but perhaps trying to discover who you were at that time. Like, I'm a mom, it's really interesting that mean for pre K, yeah, it was, you know, I had, I had done these little tiny baby steps to stepping away from what I thought was expected of me. So, you know, I thought that my parents were both teachers, while I had attempted to do this little kind of attempted at the end of school to do this, something else, you know, media, TV, whatever, it didn't work out, and I thought I will, you know, what you do as a, as a good member of societies that you work in nine to five job and you it's actually more than nine to five, because they were teachers. So it was kind of, you know, all consuming, and you do that really well and passionately, and then you, you know, you have a partner and you get married and, and buy a house and, you know, go camping and all the things like I was really like, this is what you do with your life. And when I had this opportunity to go to the State Library to work for under secondment kind of thing just for for three months. And suddenly I was like, Oh, wow. Like, the world is not just like a school, you know, like, there are other people and they have better like work life balance than I do, you know, and all of this kind of stuff. So I started unhooking myself a little bit from what I thought was expected of me. And then the shock of being a parent. And, you know, it was we had, we were 10 days late, Gracie was breached out to have an emergency cease, like it was not, it wasn't how we planned it at all. So it was all a bit of a shock. And in the first six months after Grace's birth, I lost two grandparents, both who have whom I was really close to. So it was kind of just a bit of a shitshow. And I think I found the capacity to write things down. Kind of hilly or like that there was this enormous force, you know, that visceral kind of thing, when you when the kids are born, you're kind of leaking, no one tells you how much you're going to leak like you just kind of wet for, I don't know, for six months, maybe longer, you know, like and how much and the sleep deprivation and all of those the just the craziness of the world that you're in, as well as that feeling of being affronted that no one told you it was gonna be like this, even though they attempted to. But no one really, no one really kind of told you and then I think being out in the world, I clearly remember, you know, I had that I had a year's worth of maternity leave. And I remember like, I don't know, go into the park or something immediate friend for a coffee on a Wednesday, lunchtime and going like, Wednesday, lunchtime is a time in the world where people are not just at their work, like people are out there in the world. And they're doing other things. And I know it sounds really crazy now. But I really did have to deprogram myself to what I thought life was meant to be. And even in that first year after skylark in, you know, and since the mother faults come out, it's still a daily practice of going this is a kind of a life that I've made for myself, that makes me incredibly happy and fulfilled and it does not meet, it does not check all the boxes, like doesn't check the financial box doesn't check, you know, a lot of the boxes, and yet I am so much kind of mentally healthier and happier than I was when I was killing myself trying to you know, be a teacher lot of the writing of the mother fault is about geology as well, I did all of this incredible kind of reading about geology, and I think it is that, um, you know, you kind of, they shift you off, they shift the axis, you know, you kind of it's kind of like and start you're spinning in a in a different kind of direction. I think having having the kids and I don't think, you know, I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that they make you better or wise or anything like that, because I know plenty of incredible humans who are not parents and they are incredibly wise and amazing and have kind of lived the full breadth of experience. But I think in terms of what it does for you personally is that it kind of just kicks you off where you are, and you have to look at you have to look at everything differently and and in that act of shifting I think I think Matt label or you know if you're lucky enough to have it or at least that space where you're kind of recovering from actually birthing or or having a newborn in any way that because it it so dramatically changes your day to day that you are forced to to reconsider things and often I think it's a real shame like, especially for friends who, particularly the men, who didn't necessarily get any parental leave or things like that, like life just kind of rolled on. And that, that what I'm so grateful for is the big kind of abrupt shift that made me go, Okay. Well, how do I want this to be? You know, how do I want my life to be? And I've got, I've now got a little human on the outside of me, who's also my responsibility. But how do I want our life to look? Yeah, and without that, you probably would never have come to that realization, you would have just kept going along, doing it slowly along exactly. I just wanted to touch on, you mentioned about the mother for having like, the geology. And so the title of the book is that, I'll give you my take on it. Yeah, because I really loved English at school, and I loved analyzing things. And to this day, my sister, it drives me nuts. When we watch movies, I'm always picking up the love that she's in the light. He's higher than her. She's all this sort of, you know, so basically, this is my take on it. And I say, again, I haven't read it. So I can't say, but it's, to me, it's two things, right? It's the fault. As in fault, as in the mother does things wrong, whatever, you know, no, one's perfect. Finding your way, whatever. And then the fault of like, the geology, like the fault lines of the things that move the earth, sort of Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Brilliant. Absolutely perfect. And it's not, um, it's not a technical one, someone who did a read for me at one stage was like, Is this a technical term? Like the greatest, you know, fault line? And I said, No, I totally just made it up. But in terms of, but yes, absolutely refers to that. But the funniest thing was that when I kind of got to it, and and it is that one of those beautiful things we I, I came up with the title myself, because often, you know, often publicy and you know, the publisher will do a title for you, because the one that you've got is shocking. But um, so I did come up with it myself. And I called my mom. And I was like, Ma'am, I've got it. I think I've got the titles of calling the mother felt. And she said, Oh, you can't call it that. And I said, why? And she said, Ah, because it's always the mother's fault. Like people associate those words together all the time. And I was like, Yeah, I know. Like, that's the point. And so many people have said, booksellers, particularly that like, women will comment on it, whether or not they buy it, and sometimes they do, but they will comment on the phrasing of it, because, and, and it provokes a lot of feelings. And I think that I think, you know, we love to a fault. As well as all of that guilt stuff about, you know, me in the book, you know, is kind of like running across the country, you know, escaping from the government, these shady government forces who are looking after her looking after the kids, and she's still wearing, like, oh, maybe we've had takeaway too much this week, like, you know, you know, because that is, that is how the brain works, you know, that you're, you're in absolute kind of danger mode. And the other thing is that, you know, when, when I won't give away the ending in the book, the part that I often read out, too, is that towards the end of the book, when MIM kind of works out what her husband's been up to, and she's really cross and she says, You know, I would have liked to be a hero too, but I was at school pickup, you know, and that, that in the end is what happens to us, you know, like, that is, that is literally in a nutshell. Brilliant, yeah, you know, that you you could do anything you could do you could be anything, you know, that this the possibility of what we have available to us. And of course, part of that is also being a parent and, and that the possibilities that are opened up with that, and the kinds of highs of our our extraordinary, but also the day to day logistics of it are just shit. You know, they just really, and I'm sure some people enjoy it, but I do not. And I know lots of people who do not, and they take up time and brain space and energy and and if there was one thing that I think kind of delicious thing that came out of COVID and lock downs is this tendency, which I hope we can try and hold on to which is to say, okay, maybe we can just have a fire in the backyard on Wednesday night and not do 18 afterschool activities and go to every party and say yes, they have We think maybe we can just, you know, hold on to a little bit less to think that it's enough the way that we're doing things. And then we have space for those other big, crazy wild possibilities that we want for ourselves or for our families. That would be a nice thing. I think I totally, totally agree with that. I can recommend a book which I just listened to on as an audio book. It's called 4000 weeks. Oliver Berkman, I think his name is. And the premise is, if we live to AD, that's what we've got 4000 weeks, that's only, you know, 4000, Saturday nights, 4000, Sunday mornings, and it was kind of like, it was very confronting when I first started listening to it, but his premise is, you know, it's limited, it's finite our time here. So you got to be when you can't do everything. And we think we've been fed this lie that we can, particularly women, particularly in the last 20 years, you can do everything you can have you agree, you can be kids, you can look amazing, your house can look amazing. You can see all your friends, you can have a great marriage, like bullshit. Yeah, you actually just cannot get to doing this. Yeah. It's impossible. It is impossible. And, you know, the book, I keep saying to my partner, you know, like, it's changed my life. He's like, your only two days in my blog post finishing the book. So just, maybe it hasn't changed your life yet. But I feel like it's got the capacity to have I keep reminding myself like, you know, I'm 40. Now like, that's it. I'm halfway through my 4000 weeks, like, come on, what are you going to do with the rest of them? You know, make them count? Can I ask I don't know if this is a sacred or not, but does mean get another book about it? Does she? Does she ever come back? You know, what she not at this stage? Lots of people were super duper interested in that, because it's left on a bit of a cliffhanger. Oh, hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah. I hadn't I hadn't planned there to be and hopefully. Yeah, I can't, I can't make any large announcements about such things. But hopefully, hopefully she gets a turn to, you know, be adapted into screen in some way. Oh, yes, but not that I would say anything about that. But hopefully, that's something that happens. I love this podcast because I find out things about other artistic pursuits that I know nothing about. So tell me how, when you write a book, do you then have to go you have to go find someone to publish it for you. You have to send it off to lots of people and stuff. Well, essentially, what we're how it works, that that's essentially how it works. One of the one of the great lucky breaks of my life is that when I was starting the course that I did the writing course at RMIT, I started writing skylarking as part of, you know, subject to their novel subject. And I actually managed to get that picked up by a publisher before it was finished. So it's very rare that that happens. And that happened. Which was incredible. And since then I've got an agent. So in Australia in particular, definitely in the overseas, the best thing to do is to find a literary agent, if one can you know, I mean, the other thing about it that's been so strange, is you kind of think, oh yeah, I got my first book published. And now I'm just gonna get books published. Like, that's the way it rolls. And of course, that doesn't happen either. Like every single one is still, you know, has to be great. It has to be ready to be published, it has to there has to be space in the market, there has to be all those other you know, everything has to kind of align and combined. So that's why so often, you know, writers in this country, in on average $12,000 A year from their writing, like it's ridiculous. I mean, there's a few outliers, but that's why so often they've got all the other hustles that they have, whether or not they're in writing, like any artists in this country, in fact, because we're so ridiculously and chronically underfunded and undervalued. But you know, that's why having this little bit of time where it has been, I have been able to do it because I got an advance for the book. So I have been able to just focus on writing and feel validated that I don't also have to take on every teaching gig and every workshop key you know, and because that's, that's really hard and that's the other side of the you know, Being an art monster, or, you know, being creative is that then you've got to also manage your own business, about that. And all everything that that comes along with that, which I think often too, is not instinctively where an artist strengths might be. Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, it's very hot, you know, and we want to collaborate, and we, and we want to do all the things and we want to be excited. And it's really hard to kind of insert yourself in there and say, Actually, but hang on, am I being paid for this? Or Hang on? How many hours? Is this gonna take me? Um, one of the things that one of my gangs do have women all have, we're all right, as we're all parents. And at certain times, we've written each other's like, hardcore emails for each other. Whether we're saying, no, actually, we need to be paid more than that, or this is how much I'm charging, because it's still so instinctively hard to do it yourself. I'm getting better at it. But it's still really hard to do it. To do it yourself. Yeah, so the business side of it is just an absolute mess. But I must say that having a my incredible agent on board now. And she's amazing, and she just no bullshit. And she does the, the bits that I both don't understand. And I have no energy for and she lets me in, which protects the time that I have then to write, which is what soulmates? Absolutely. Wow, that's awesome. So because you've written because, like you said, about getting your advance is that because you sorry, if I'm Hope I'm not being too personal. Like, no, no, go ask. This is what we should be doing. We should be talking about the business stuff. Yeah, really? Yeah. So did you have to present the idea for the book? And then they were so we really liked this. So we're gonna give you the funds to give you the time and space to create it? Yeah, what often happens is that you'll get sued by Agent took the mother fold out and took it to various publishers, and then the publishers all kind of, you know, I was in the fortunate spot to kind of have a number of bids in from different publishers. So then you kind of talk about it, you talk to everyone and see who's a good fit. And who's let's be very frank, who's got the most money. And at that stage, they'll often say, so people will often get contracted in a two book deal or a three book deal. So they'll say, What have you got next. And hilariously, we were off, and we were doing a trip around Australia to visit our mates who live up in the Kimberley. So we take him through, you know, eight weeks off, put the camper trailer on, we were way out in this remote community had very little phone reception. And I'm trying to like pitch my new book, which I hadn't written a word of. The second book is cut, it's kind of a little bit of this, it's kind of a little bit that so that's often what happens is that you kind of pitch a concept or, and some people really don't like being contracted, like some writers will say, Oh, the pressure of having a contract hanging over my head for the next book is too much. I can't write like that. I'm a bit of a deadline person. So I kind of like it. Having said that, I've already missed my deadline. So that's that's the way things go to. So I wanted to ask you about your podcast. Yes. The first time. It's funny. Do you get this a lot when people google it, they think it's about something else? Yes, yes. Yes, we do. We do. And in fact, there is another one which is about the which came after us. And of course, now we've now it's hilarious, because it's we're forcing we're about to start our fifth season next year. And we've also now you know, I'm up to publishing my third book, Katherine's publishing her second book. So the premise at the start was that it was about the first time you publish a book. And because Catherine was about to publish her, so we chat to each other about all the things you know, what do you do for a launch? The kinds of questions you're asking as well, like, how do you find an agent, you know, what's meant to cost? As well as interviewing Australian writers about their kind of the first time they published a book and what they've learned since which is, which has been nice. Yeah, cool. So you're gonna change the show to the third time that you've heard? Yeah, I know, we were like the first and subsequent times. And now we've got such a brand that I feel like we can't change it. But this year, or next year, we're actually going to, we're hoping to focus we got some really kind of, I talked to Maggie Chipstead, US writer who was shortlisted for the Booker Prize this year, and, you know, getting Helen Garner to speak, you know, we've kind of been begging our friends in the first season to like, Well, you talk to us to now. You know, all these books arrive every day the publishers are out. We get pitches all the time, we can't possibly fit on everyone who, you know, we've been asked to have. So it's this real switch. But you know, a bit like you I think I just I'm, I'm so obsessed and curious about how other people do the thing that they do and how they manage To make it work, and I'm like a bow burden. So I saw I still little bits of everyone's processes and ideas. And, and I just think it's incredibly, it's incredibly interesting. It's incredibly interesting to have those conversations with people. And, and also, I don't think I realized Katherine actually was at an event the other night, and she messaged me afterward. And she said, people really listened to us, like people really came up and said, like, it's really helpful. I really, you know, your voice is so familiar. And I think the beauty now of podcasting, and you would know this is that it feels you know, you forget that however, many people are going to download it later. And you just, you're very, you're sitting often now in your own home, and you're very intimate, and you're very frank. And then you forget sometimes, what you've said, when someone comes up to you are random, and oh, I loved what you said about this about your marriage. I'm like, shit, and I say that. But yeah, you know, I I've become, yeah, I've become really digital. I mean, my dream, my dream is that I get to write books. And then someone on the ABC gives me a show. And I can just talk to creatives about what they do. You know, and someone can pay me to do it. That's the That's the dream. Really, let's be frank Ellison. That is, that's my train. That's what I want to happen. That is so good. I love that anyone listening for the AV? Yeah. Give us by the show. I found the same thing. I, I found that mostly why I started this is I needed to find out other people's opinions on how not necessarily how to do the physical stuff. Because everyone's so different in there are different, you know, requirements or whatever, but how to change my perception about stuff because I was finding I was getting really challenged, being interrupted and that kind of thing, like, you know, having to having to look at things in a different way and needing to for my own sake, because it was I was just going to have to stop creating, because I just was too wound up and too, you know, almost resentful. That sounds horrible. Yes. But yeah, so I've really enjoyed hearing how other people do it how how they think about things. Yes. And how they, how they still meet their needs, but not at the expense of their own mothering. Yeah, so yeah, I've just love it. I think it's the range too, don't you think Allison that like I am? Have you read the divided heart? Oh, I interview? Yes. You have you? Yes, of course you did. You interviewed Rachel. That's how I knew about your podcast. You know, like, that was such a profound book. For me. I got that really early because someone recommended it to me. And then since then, I've read lots of this and and right, who's a writer, her extraordinary book on being a mother and all this, there's heaps, there's heaps and, and often you're drawn to those ones, too. Like I read all of them, for people who aren't parents as well. But I think it's the range of going, well, this person did it like that. And then this person didn't like that. It's so permission giving when you go, okay, I can be away from my children, and do my work that way. Or I can do it amidst the interruptions. And I can write a chapter on my phone while I'm doing, you know, there's no right way to do it. And I think in the end, sometimes I worry about my obsession with reading about other people's process, but then I'm like, no, because the more you read, the more expensive your idea of what it can be is. And yeah, so I'm totally there with you. It's made my practice so much better. And which is why it's so important that you know, and so amazing in such a generous kind of actor that you that you do this podcast, too, I think because it is. It's that talking about the unspoken or which, which, you know, there were there were people. Yeah, there were definitely people who, who let me know, I'll always remember a gorgeous friend, Amy, who messaged me on day three and said you might start crying today. And that's okay. And I have since then, I have always sent that message to people, you know, to because I was like, that was so incredibly helpful, that she told me that, you know, and then and I think that there is this act of and you have to know when to say it because you don't want to burst that gorgeous, pregnant, first time pregnancy bubble either for people but the sharing of stories and the way that women in particular share stories. What a lifeline that is. Oh, that's that's happened. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more and I think the rise of Social media of this showing this perfection this, you know, this beautiful staged photo like we're talking about the Christmas tree, you know? Yeah. Is that really reality? You know? Or if you've got that Christmas tree hidden in a different room where no one can tell you why can't we just be honest with each other and just getting rolled out like don't be afraid to, to share and I think that would help so much not just in, like what we've talked about, but also like the whole mental health thing like actually saying, Yeah, I had a lot of trouble. And now I'm going to use that to help everybody else. Yeah, it's just so powerful. And it's not incredibly ashamed often scared of and embarrassed about, you know, it's laugh and it's reality. And the more we talk about it, the better. No, absolutely. I get a bit precious I think sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And scared, scared. Scared of how scared of what people will think, you know, I can say this as a 40 something year old, but there's no way I would have said this 20 years ago, you know, yeah, like we're talking right back at the beginning about this judgment. Yeah, absolutely. What he has to start thinking like a 40 year old woman. Yes, we actually, oh, that's. So basically, I was gonna ask, what you've got coming up. I've actually got a couple of, I've got some great workshops that I'm teaching in the new year in 2022. And the first one is a kind of a kicking off your creative year. So it's for writers Victoria, I'll send you through the details. But it's a full day online workshop. So people can do it from wherever they are in Australia. And we're looking at it's for emerging, or mid I think it can be for anyone really, but just looking at ways to kind of really kick off the year going, how am I going to make space for my creative work in whatever kind of situation that I'm in that my my work and my family is in? And how I'm going to do that. So that is that's really fun. And yeah, people I mean, people can find I try and keep up to date on socials, I'm having a bit we're having our three weeks at the beach offline, which I'm just so excited and thrilled about. So January's always off. But yeah, podcasts new podcast season, coming up with the first time and then lots of lots of little events in the New Year as well. So and then the book eventually. You know what, now that now that I've spoken to you, I'm gonna read your books. And a big thing for me because I love that well, and you know, if you're if you are into audiobooks, I can highly recommend although I haven't listened to it myself, because it's just too weird and hard to do. But the gorgeous Claudia Karvan read the mother fault for Audible. Yeah, or audio book or whatever. And I got to talk to her quite a bit. She's really into it. And everyone who I know who's read it that way, has loved it. So that might be a way that works for you. That is definitely something I can do. Thank good. That's okay. That's it's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you. So, so lovely speaking to you, Allison. I feel like that's like been a debrief as well as just a little therapy session. Thank you as Digby, it was lovely to meet you, too. Are you in the middle of your first publishing experience long to get a deal for already been there and want to know how others experienced it? Maybe you're a writer, a reader, a lover of Australian fiction, this podcast is for you. Here's the deal. Adams first book, the helpline is hitting shelves in Australia very soon. And she has got some questions. Like how do I plan a launch party? What else should I expect? In the Green Room? If I get invited to a festival? Will I get invited to a festival? What if I get invited to a festival and no one shows up? Like my day job? Is my life gonna change? What does it feel like to have a bad review? Do I need to get my nails done to match my book cover? Should I be on Twitter more? And even though my first book skylarking came out a couple of years ago, and I can give Katherine some advice already has lots of our experiences that are vastly different. So we thought we'd cast the net a little wider. And ask some other Australian writers about that first time. I just ticked that box novel and started this incredible adventure. It's great to have a deadline to work towards you know, there's this tendency to obviously procrastinate or not even procrastinate. Just keep reworking and reworking and never really deciding that it's finished never pressing them and I distinctly remember the moment I got the idea for what With become the first novel, that moment is vivid in my mind full of those things had a choice, I write the story down or I go completely mad that first shortlisting that you get is just this amazing validation. And for some reason, it tends to happen when you're at your lowest point. And it always just kind of buoys you up, and allows you to keep going. There's three parts to being an artist of any sort, there's talent, there's hard work, and the third one ever forgets as luck, good luck, the lucky chance comes and you're not ready for your lucky chance, you're not gonna make it either. In each episode, we'll ask a writer to come clean on all the fields and the logistics of their first time, and will hone in on advice on a particular aspect of the publishing process. I'll also ask Catherine to update us on where she's at with her own adventure into the world of a debut novelist. Whether it's chatting to her editor, getting her social sorted, or speaking to an audience of booksellers, we are taking a bit of a risk here. We want to take you behind the scenes of the hype, and the instant deliciousness of the debut Experience and find out all the lows along with the highs. We're asking our guests to be candid, and to give us the warts and all of how it feels. And we don't know how it's gonna play out. But Katherine, Will her book end up on billboards at the airport? Will she hit the coveted top 10 On release? Will Hollywood come knocking? Or will As one writer attests the experience all be a little anticlimactic? subscribe via iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts and check out our website, the first time podcast.com or connect with us via Twitter and Instagram at the first time pod. And let us know about your first time and the questions you want answered. We look forward to getting into your ears. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Sami Lange US mixed media paper artist S2 Ep31 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Sami Lange is a mixed media paper artist living and working in Phoenix, Arizona, and she's mum of 2 children. ​ Sami grew up in a creative home, and sees art and creativity as a fully incorporated part of family life, with her children having access to her studio. ​ Her paper artwork is made of hundreds and sometimes thousands of paper circles and shapes stitched together. Each shape is hand-cut by Sami with scissors, dyed multiple times in water baths, and then dried, taped and stitched. Sami has worked with paper dyeing for over 14 years. She has also done furniture painting, drawing, collage and print making. ​ After an evacuation of her hometown of Santa Rosa, California in 2017, Sami's family was blessed to have their home spared after the Tubbs fire swept through the city and burned down over 5,000 homes. This life changing event forced Sami to re-evaluate her art practice, reflect on what is truly important and what makes a thoughtful piece of art worth making. ​ **This episode contains discussions about post natal depression and anxiety** ​ Visit Samis website - https://www.samilangeart.com/ ​ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/samilangeart/ ​ Frogmans http://frogmans.net/ Shop the art supplies Sami uses here ​ Connect with the podcast - https://www.instagram.com/art_of_being_a_mum_podcast ​ Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow ​ When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Semi Lang semi is a mixed media paper artist living and working in Phoenix, Arizona, and she's a mom of two children. Semi grew up in a creative home and sees art and creativity as a fully incorporated part of family life, with her children having access to her studio. Her paper artwork is made of hundreds and sometimes 1000s of paper circles and shapes stitched together. Each shape is hand cut by Sammy with scissors died multiple times in waterbirds. And then dried, taped and stitched Sammy has worked with paper dyeing for over 14 years. She's also done furniture painting, drawing, collage and printmaking. After an evacuation of our hometown of Santa Rosa, California in 2017 semis family was blessed to have their home spared after the Tubbs fire swept through the city, and burned down over 5000 homes. This life changing event for Sammy to reevaluate her art practice, reflect on what is truly important. And what makes a thoughtful piece of art worth making. This episode contains discussions around postnatal depression and anxiety. Thank you so much for doing this. So it's just lovely to meet you and to have you on so much for having me. I'm so excited. So you're in Phoenix, Arizona. So what's it like there at the moment? Is it is it cold and snowing or anything? Live it? So Gloria, so in Phoenix, it doesn't usually snow, I mean, not really a couple hours north it will. But here it's about 65 degrees in January, that's about 18 degrees Celsius. And it's just so glorious. It's basically the perfect time and weather. We've only lived here for about a year and a half, we essentially moved the day everything shut down when the pandemic started. That's when we moved out of state. Yeah, so it was a little bit of a wild ride. And it was very, very hot, like 120 degrees for what felt like two straight months, and that's about 48 degrees Celsius. But they always joke that the whole state is air conditioned. And you know, it was a little bit better this last summer. So we transitioned really well now, I think. So where were you before? Where did you move from? We were in Northern California, and I was there for close to 20 years. So as a little bit of a change of pace, but the fires hit where we were at. And so we just we kept having to evacuate. And we knew a lot of people that were losing their houses, and we just eventually decided that we really couldn't raise our kids there. You know, we just we just was really stressful. And so I was actually a tenured librarian there. And I decided, okay, I'm giving up tenure, we're just going to start over, we'll just do whatever. And so we put our house on the market even before I had a job. And then thankfully, everything worked out because then the pandemic hit, and then the job almost didn't come through. And so it was a little wild there for a while, but we're settled. And, you know, we're grateful that we've kind of had, you know, as much luck as we've had, but I mean, you know, it's been rough for all moms everywhere. Oh, yeah, goodness. Yeah, that sounds really scary. The fire's like, we've got like, we get quite a lot of bushfires here in Australia, so I can appreciate what you say. I've never been in that position personally, but I'd certainly understand what you're saying. We had to evacuate. We actually chose to be one day and then that afternoon all of the police came around our neighborhood and told everyone to get out. Well, there was one night where we were we were thinking about if we wanted to or if our home was going to burn down we didn't know and And we're kind of reflecting like what choices we wish we'd made. You know, that was 2017. So was the Tubbs fire. So I had a lot of friends and colleagues lose their homes in that fire and it just sort of hit randomly. Yeah, I remember that night thinking about the studio and thinking about my work and be like, well, that's okay. If we lose everything, you know, that's fine. We're safe, which of course, that's, you know, the truth. And then we got back and it just was this very surreal experience. There was ash everywhere, you know, and then I went into the studio, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, like, it made me question everything. And of course, the whole community was in trauma, and then it just kept happening. You know, it just kept like, every year we would evacuate and then someone else we knew would lose their house. And it was a really stressful way to live. I don't know how people do that year after year, and it dangerous things like that. So you are a paper artist, I've never chatted to anybody that does your kind of art. So this is cool. Can you tell me about what you do in the process and all that kind of stuff? I would love to and I it's so funny. I have such a hard time deciding what to call myself. Occasionally, when I'll send out emails, it'll say simulating paper artists. And then next week, I'll send you mixed media, paper artists. And then I'll say print maker and mixed media artists. You know, it's just, I mean, when I think of paper artists, I don't think of my work, but I'm making work out of paper. So I'm actually a printmaker, which is kind of where the mixed media piece comes in. I I consider myself conceptually a print maker by trade. And that was what my BFA was in. That's what I went to school for. And about 15 years ago, I did some assistantships at print and press workshop called Frog man's in the US. And it's this amazing workshop. And it lasts for two weeks. And I had gotten an assistantship for three weeks. And so you go and then you kind of help run a class. Yeah, so I had been in a class with an artist, Tim high. And he does these amazing screen prints. And what's so interesting is he basically takes like a wood stipple. So it's kind of as almost a sharp as like a very sharp pencil point. And he'll block out the parts. And he basically stippled an entire scene in a gradation gradient of screen printing, which is just insane from a technical standpoint. But he would start that by dyeing the paper, which I loved, because it's like, instead of being a white printmaking paper, you just went to pastel yellow, or you just went to PDH, or, you know, and he would kind of just let the process flow. And so that was the first introduction, I got to the paper, dyeing it all. And then I sort of like did that, you know, it sort of became this tool that I would use for, I guess, about 11 years, but I kind of didn't know what to do with it. You know, it's like I do a painting. And then there would be this cut shape that I like, glued on the painting. And then I finished me like, okay, but like, why is that glued piece of paper? They're like, what is? Yeah, and so then I then we had the fires. And then I had that night where I thought, gosh, you know, what happens if the studio burns down? That would be okay, so then when I got back, I just had this sensation of thinking, Okay, well, if I was okay with it burning down, then like, what are we doing? You know, at that point, I've been an artist professionally for about 13 years, but I was working in education full time. So it's always on the side. And I just, I thought, Okay, well, maybe this isn't me, it was sort of the first time that I'd ever questioned if I was an artist, or if that was my identity or anything like that. Yeah. And so I took a break, I took like a three month break. And that was the biggest, that was probably the only break I can think of in my entire life of not making art. Yeah. And then I've always had a home studio. And so I did at the time, my kids were really little, they were like two and three. And so we had a baby gate up on that studio, which was a room and I would just I would walk by like 30 times a day because I was always chasing them. And then one day, I saw a little circle that was on the ground. And it's like something clicked and I thought, oh my gosh, the work is the paper like stop putting in a drawing, stop putting in a print, stop putting it on painting, stop doing it. It's just the paper. And so it sort of was this avalanche of creating what I call the paper quilts. I don't really know what to call them but they're basically hundreds and sometimes 1000s of cut paper that I hand cut with scissors, and then I dye them 123 times in water baths I'm just using die in like jars with the shapes put in them and then I dry them. Thankfully in Arizona they dry really quickly. And then I tape them down and then stitch them and so they just kind of become On this piece that's created from, you know, white printmaking paper to start. So that's an incredibly intense, like labor labor intensive process, that's incredible. When it comes to like, choosing your colors, is it just a really intuitive thing, like when you're mixing up your dyes, it's a really intuitive thing. I, sometimes I wish I was a more organized, you know, methodical color picker, sometimes I have this vision that I'm going to make all of these color formulas and have this book and I go through it and I, but it never works. That way, there's something that's so that is so out of my control when I do the water bath. And I feel like the process in general is so controlled, that it's this way that forces me to not have control. And so I need to keep that incorporated. And there will be sometimes I mean, I kind of learned my lesson repeatedly with this because sometimes I'll do you know, a light read or kind of a reddish orange. And then I'll do maybe a deep dark blue purple dye, I don't think this will be so beautiful. And then it comes out and it's basically mud. It's like they died over each other and it looks horrible. And it's like, oh, well, they're just hand cut 100 circles, and then I killed them and that way around. Like, I know that. But there's something kind of exhilarating even though this is not a big risk. It's like this small risk way to have fun. And so because the process and the cutting and the dying is just so a part of our daily lives, I always have a home studio. So it's always like there's something in the die pads or something that I'm cutting. I think when I didn't, didn't do as well, with my time when I was younger in the studio, that would have bothered me. But now I just sort of embrace all the failures. It's almost like I'm trying to fail a lot. Because when I, when I feel big, sometimes I fail forward. And so that really helps my practice. And so even though the work is really tight, there's a ton of play, which is refreshing and you know, uplifting. So, yeah, absolutely. I love that. So does that challenge you like your own thinking then? Like, is that been a process for you to work through of accepting? When things don't work? It's okay, that sort of stuff. Yeah, I think I've had to do that for like seven straight years. I feel like my my youngest is, or my oldest is seven. And I feel like this idea I had, what being an adult was is hysterical. I look back to being a kid and thinking, oh, when you're an adult, you can choose everything. I feel like, you know, I had really bad postpartum depression after my kids were born. And so that was a real shocker. And that lasted for several years. And then kind of right when I sort of came out of that in the fog it cleared and I was feeling good, then the fires hit, then that lasted for like four years, then we you know, we transitioned to an out of state move, I gave up a job that I thought I would basically have my whole career and then a global pandemic hits. So it's like seven years of this like straight sort of, you never know what you're gonna get. And I would say in the past couple of months, it's been sort of exhilarating because I'm just like, Okay, we never know what we're gonna get let's just go for broke in the studio you know, it's like this safe space to just go why Oh, yeah, it's almost like it's just it gives this giving you permission just to just to just take the pressure off and have no expectations because you know, the unknown is there and it could happen at any moment. So it's like well, okay, let's just go for it. Go for hot pink in the water bath. So you've always been a creative person, like as a child and growing up you've always been making? Yeah, I would say it's a it's a serious core identity. I think I mean Some of my earliest memories were like looking at art books. My mom was primarily a stay at home mom. But until I was seven, she was a graphic designer. So some of my earliest memories are going with her. And I'm at the age and she's at the age where nothing was digital. So it was all storyboard. So like, I remember going into her work office and seeing all the transparent paper and the different layers taped down, you know, like, kind of the more old school graphic design. And so she was always doing art stuff with me, and she's more of a realist er. And then I got into I mean, I took art classes all the way up through high school, then I I was doing like furniture, painting and mosaics, I mean, just something always creative. And then college is really where a printmaking head, and I sort of happened into it accidentally, I didn't, I wasn't, I was not planning on being an art major. But then you go to college and things happen, and then I got a BFA so. I was gonna ask you about your children. So you briefly mentioned your oldest is seven. So how many children have you got? I've got two, I've got a girl that seven and a boy that six. Yeah, right. And they are yet the same age as yours. They're hysterical. It's a, I have to say someone told me years ago when mine were babies that these were sort of the golden years. And they were right. I mean, I just I absolutely love, I love that they can tell me what they want. I love that we're past potty training. I love that. They can hold a pencil and a paintbrush, like in a different way. You know, because we do a ton of creative time. I get up early before I go to my librarian job. And I'm in the studio every morning. And we just, I think, I think because I grew up with such a creative mom. And in such a creative household. I never sort of questioned that as, as how you live, you know, it's like, that was how we lived. And my dad worked full time in the government and then retired and became a teacher. And he was always writing, you know, it's like creativity was just the lifestyle. And so I never, I never had any other expectation of what I would be like and how I would raise my kids. And so and we didn't have kids right away. My husband and I, we waited like 10 years not not as a plan, just, that's when we decided we were ready. And you know, and so then I had always been art making. And so then my kids always made art with me. And I remember right before I got married with my husband, we were just talking about this the other day, and I said you remember, like the week before we got married, and we got married really young. I was 21. Or I thought that was young, because I freaked out. I'm like, we're too young. I'm like, This is crazy. We should do this, what are we thinking? And then I said, you know, I just I need to tell you, I'm never going to make less art. I said, I'm not going to get married to you and you know, clean or something like that. I was like, I just need you to know, this is who I am. And you guys I know, this is who you are like, we're good. You know, and granted, I will occasionally clean now. I did go back on that. But but as far as the studio time, it has never changed, you know, and so even when they were babies, it's like they were painting with me and they were in the studio and I've always had a home studio, which I have to say is really really important. I mean, that's just a total game changer. And so there's always we've always had a room that's been my studio, the dedicated space and that it's just super important. You know, we were talking about how you have all your kids artwork. I have drawers in my flat files that are theirs. It's like they know that those are their drawers and there's their paper and there's their work and you know, so it's just kind of how we live I guess which makes it possible to make the work and also work so I'm grateful for that so you get up early, you do some in the morning. Do you do do you then go back to it at night? I do. i i This is so I have this funny story. And it has to do with me wearing a bikini to work, and it will, like we're going on a tangent, but really, it's going to come back, if I can remember to get us back, it's gonna come back. So Right. So right after my son was born as a college librarian, you do a lot of teaching. And so I had gone back, and I had both my kids at my last job when I was on the tenure track. So I had, you know, I was trying to get tenure, I was teaching or student observations. And I was teaching a class and I was wearing, I remember this beautiful blue linen dress, it was so beautiful. And underneath that I was wearing a bikini, because I had just returned to work. And I had not done laundry. And so I remember be teaching in this class, and like, you know, pointing to something on the screen. And in my mind, I'm thinking about this bikini that I'm wearing, and the fact that I have no backup bikini. And it's not like it was a bikini that fit. It was like the pre pregnancy bikini. So it's like, dire, you know, and so I'm, I'm like, Okay, what should I do? I had to stay late teaching that I'm like, should I go to Target and buy a backup backup bikini, or should I, like I because I didn't have time to do laundry, like, forget that they were the kids are gonna be up all night. At that point, my son was five months old. And my daughter was 19 months. Yeah. And I was like trying to, you know, teach and all this stuff. So then as I'm trying to teach this class, I'm like, You know what, clearly, this isn't working. Like you need to figure out a way to change your schedule, cut stuff out, do whatever it takes, so that you're not thinking about backup bikini is like is your emergency work plan. And so I ended up just getting totally into productivity research, and like trying all these different time hacks and all this stuff. It got to such a point that then I started talking about it so much at work that then one of my supervisors was like, Could you start doing some productivity trainings, then I started making videos and classes and like kind of creating these mini cohorts. And so then I started doing all these very enjoyable, small groups about productivity and how we think about our energy and what choices we make. And that how much time and energy our decisions take us and cognitive load, and like, and all that stuff. And so that kind of helped me reset everything after my kids were born. So I started just really focusing on the art making, as opposed to worrying about this idea that the dishes had to be done, or this idea that like, there was one year where one of my strategies was, I thought, I don't need matching socks, who cares if I have matching socks, so I stopped doing all map all socks hurting, like, you know, but then I realized I'm like, You know what people actually can see your socks. Like, maybe that's not the strategy that you want to do, you know, like, a snowflake sock. And like, you know, like, so. So anyways, I tried a whole bunch of stuff. And I ended up cutting a whole bunch of things out. And then kind of over the last year, I realized that I had gotten really, really good about managing the time so that I could have studio time and Eve, like in the morning and night. But then I realized I was tired at night. And I was like, alright, well, what's the deal, like, You got everything down, you need to get down and you have this time. So what's the block and so then I just sort of started paying more attention to my energy. You know, like, when we're at the park, normally I'm, you know, talking to the kids and engaging with the kids and, and then I started taking more photos, there's some really beautiful photos on my camera, things like bark, you know, things that are kind of make, they're the textures, and colors and stuff that will eventually make themselves, you know, back into the studio and back into my water baths and things like that. And so it just sort of started checking in a little bit more about how I was feeling and how my energy was, which one makes me a lot more patient. And two, I feel like then it gives me that little push so that when the kids are asleep, then I can go in and do like 30 minutes in the studio and listen to a podcast or, you know, Pandora or like just a little music, and then I can go to bed. And then when I get up early, I'm ready to roll. You know, like that early time with coffee in the studio. That's probably my favorite time of day. Aside from the hysterical jokes and questions were like, I don't know how to answer that. And I know you're six. But I don't know how to answer that was like constant skill testing as a parent, like, what's the answer here? When when Diggs asked me he asked me really wacky question the other day, and I had I could not think of a thing and I said, Well, what do you think? Because I just thought, I cannot think of anything to say, Hey, this is ridiculous. And then he came out with this great big, long winded explanation. Excellent. That sounds good on you. So we're going to use that strategy. My daughter asked me last week, how was man created? She gets one question at bedtime. And I'm like, um, what was your other question? Oh, you know, using your strategy. It's dates, definitely. Because then the main probably bedtimes not the greatest time for it because it gets them thinking again, but Why is that at bedtime? All these questions come out? It's like I wrote this ridiculous Facebook post years ago. And I don't know how I can remember exactly what it was now but Digby asked, How do you make bricks? What is this thing happened where the colors come from? He clearly thought of the language why do we talk in this accent? All this stuff just one after the other understanding going tomorrow we'll do this tomorrow so I'm guessing the the, the key dyes and stuff that you use then like non toxic and stuff like were you able to keep keep doing that while you were pregnant? Like there was no sort of worry there. So I use red dye, you know that really, really common dye that you can find with fabric and at all the craft stores and, and I've used both powder and liquid but right now I primarily use liquid. And as a printmaker, you know, I just threw down the hours in the studio, I mean, I would go to the shop and be there for like 12 hours, and I would leave with these horrible migraines. And so when I graduated college, I just decided I wanted a totally non toxic studio. So after college, I transitioned to essentially everything non toxic, non toxic print inks, acrylic paint, you know, so, and that was kind of part of the plan with having a home studio was that I wanted everything to just be comfortable. And so I've never fortunately had to transition any of the materials when I was pregnant, I could just use everything. Yeah, so that's been really, really helpful. Just having the kids around, and they use all my supplies. I ran into a photo the other day, my son when he was two, and he had, you know, those little edges, sketch those magnetic things gone. So he was too and he hadn't shirt off. And he was so proudly holding up on his little belly, that I just sketch with, like some circles cut on it. And at the time, I was excluded or drawn on it. I was exclusively doing circles. So he was like, so proud that he had his circle. And then I started finding and we got them into looking back, probably they were really little we got them into using kid scissors really young. Yeah. And so I would find these really jagged edges, like circle square shaped things in with my servers. I'm like, Oh, he was contributing to my pile, like he got on scissors. And so it's nice, because they just think they make merit. And sometimes I'll find these piles of glue and circles. And they're mine on like, something I'm like I didn't make has been in here stealing my materials. But it's pretty, that's beautiful. Isn't it like that, obviously, it's, you know, they see it, and it's made such an impact on them and that they want to they're a part of it, you know, that's their way of being a part of it. And that's lovely that they're welcomed into that space that they they can be there. And it's not like oh, you have to stay out because it's either it's not safe, or I don't want you to touch or whatever. Like it. That's lovely. It's such a beautiful environment. They're like little human bodies of glue. It's like wherever you go. They go. Attached to I had a funny conversation with my daughter the other day. We have, I have these rules. Like one rule is don't talk to mom while she's in the bathroom. So that's to me, like even if I don't need to go the bathroom. That's a safe space. So I was walking to the bathroom. I've I like announced I put my arms up and they go, I'm going to the bathroom. My arms are up. I'm like announcing to the household. And I'm walking and she's finally and I'm walking and I go I'm going to the bathroom. She's following still talking. I go I'm going to the bathroom and she goes, Yes. And she stops and she kind of puts her finger up and she goes, but you're not in the bathroom. And I go you know what? You're ready. You are so right. Okay, what do you need so that I can go to the bathroom? Oh my gosh, it was so hysterical. That's gold and not bad. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. So if you don't mind would Is it okay if we talk a little bit bit about your postpartum depression? Is that okay? Talk? Yeah. Yeah, I can definitely relate, I had had it bad with the first one, but super bad with the second one. So. So did you did you find at that point that you are either ramped up or sort of went the other way and decreased? How did that sort of impact? Ya? know, I've always been pretty consistent with the practice, I think, I honestly don't even remember. I mean, that was such a dark time, but I probably leaned into it more at that, at that time, I wasn't doing the paper quotes, I was still doing a lot of drawing and a lot of hand printed printmaking. I do remember because I had kind of tried everything for the postpartum depression, you know, it's like, everything that you were supposed to do, I just, I feel like I was in a hole. And I was like, trying to climb out of it. And, I mean, I did the journaling, and I did the exercise, and I get I got a therapist, and I, you know, I did the art and I did the walking like, I just, I tried everything and, and for me, I just kind of had to wait it out. You know, it's like, I did everything so long, and so consistently, and then one day, the fog just sort of cleared. But it wasn't like a switch, it just was like, gradually, eventually, everything sort of worked. And I had a therapist at the time. And I use this a lot. So my work is so much about color, you know, it's so much about color, and emotion and color really brings out, you know, feelings. And so she would say to me sometimes she said, we'll just sit there, you know, because we would talk about my art. And she would say what color are you? You know, and I would have to think about well, what color do I feel like? Am I read on my, you know, what color do I want to be? And so I started meditating a lot at that time, too. That was one of the strategies. And so then when the fires hit, and we came back, and everything switched to the paper quilts, I used a lot of the quilting as meditations, you know. And so a lot of those blues and most common greens, that was kind of what I hit first, because it's like, I just needed the space to sort of watch my community heal, to see what was gonna happen, you know, was such a shock. So I, I really did make a lot of art, but not necessarily that much different. I've just been this massive producer, I used to try and recycle everything because I used to make a lot of really ugly, like a really hideous work. I mean, I didn't like it, but it was like I was trying to get to something. And so I'm finally at the place where I'm making what I want to make. But I mean, it was like, it was like 12 years of just junk. And I would put it in the recycling bin and I would like tear it off and throw on the trash. Like that was nice when I transitioned to non toxic because I feel like I could recycle more stuff. But, you know, it was a real push there. And I just kind of had to wait it out. Yeah. Good on you. You obviously had a lot of support that time. Yeah. Husband helping out a lot. Yeah, I'm an only child. And my parents were, you know, in really close with them. When we moved from California to Arizona, we actually said that I'm like, Are you coming? Because you know, we kind of need you to come like are you going to come in. So now and they came. They're now neighbors. So they knew Yeah, it's just amazing. And so they knew what was going on. And I had some really close friends that knew what was going on. And then my husband, I kind of hit the jackpot. And he's the Marriage and Family Therapist. So he like kind of had this language, you know, there's a sort of a therapist language that he has never he can help me identify things or talk to things and, and you know, therapy is actually really hard. I mean, therapy is really charged to especially if you're going through something like postpartum depression. And it's funny, but like, I basically found the therapist that I needed to help me through that time. And it was so hard that she was just an amazing person. But I think sometimes people need therapy and they try a therapist, and then it's not the therapist, they should do it. So then they think therapy doesn't work. Yes, I'm grateful that I had a husband who could be like, well, you need support. And so why don't you find a therapist, but then if you don't like that person, keep looking. And so even that is a simple idea. I have no I had never heard of that. I would have never known that. You know and so, so I kind of had everything going for me as far as like the support network, which I'm super grateful for. Yeah, it's hard. Like transitioning from motherhood and having postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety. It's hard. Yep, absolutely. Oh, yeah. Talking about that transition, like, did your identity or how you saw yourself did that sort of go through some some adjustment, then as well, I think mine was more of an adjustment that I will not be able to plan myself into a relaxed life. It's like I'm such a planner, in life in general, and I am one of the most efficient people. And so it's sort of like, well take that really nice attractive schedule to do you write that up, you throw it up in the air, and you see what lands a chair, and then that's what you're going to do that. So I think just that idea of being flexible, and now I've, I would say I'm very comfortable with it. I also think that now that my kids are a little bit older, and now that, you know, we do so much creative stuff that actually really helps a lot. There was so much diaper changing and breastfeeding and like, oh my gosh, what am I supposed to do with that? Oh, my gosh, what do I do with the crying or that this or that getting up, or those sort of walking zombie exhaustion in those early years. And my kids are so close that it was like, we had an under two for three straight years. I mean, they're 13 months apart. And so just the sleep deprivation, it was like a free for all, you know, it was just like, What day is it? Yeah. So I've really acclimated. And I've really, they're really good sleepers. Now, I kind of have one night owl and one early bird, which is okay. Because there's like a solid time in there to sleep. So I think just my idea of getting stuff done how to transition. But as far as the creative part, or, you know, I kind of never lost that part of the identity that just sort of carried through with me, yeah. One of the topics I really like talking about is mum guilt. And I'm going to I'm guessing that it's sort of, from who other people have talked to you from America, that it's something that's quite universal? Is that something you've ever experienced? Or sort of? What's your opinion on that? I love this question. And the reason I love it is because of course I listen to your podcast, and there's a couple artists and creatives that you've had on that say they don't have it. And then Mike, Ooh, what's that, like? Triumph on that idea. And I think no, can't even can't even put it on. It's like a try. And I just, I feel like I could sprinkle mom guilt across the world. And that's leftover like. So then after, after I hear all these other people say that they don't have it. I'm like, Okay, well, what is mom guilt to me? You know, because then it's like, kind of this really interesting question of like, well, what is that mean? And? And then when do I have it, and I never have it with the creative stuff. I think it comes back to you know, when I talked about sort of the core identity of being a creative and like, this is a lifestyle, instead of a choice. Yeah. And so I think where I have had the most trouble with mom guilt is, I feel like I always want to look at each individual kid, and try and make the best choice for that kid, you know, and in the pandemic, I feel like there were no good choices. You know, it's like we wanted to pod we moved here, one to get away from the bears, but to also to be with my grandparents and family. And, you know, we chose to pod with them during the podcast. Until then that meant online school. And we didn't want to do zoom school because we didn't think that would work for our kids. So then we didn't you know, so it's like you, you pick, you keep picking the best choice of all these choices you just don't want and so then we ended up homeschooling my six year old son in kindergarten, you know, it's like, it just gets to this point where you're like, Well, how did we get here? And it's sort of, I think that's where my mom guilt goes up, like, Okay, I want us to eat healthy, but I, I don't want to argue about this cookie or you know, it's like just those little things that then by the end of the day, you're tired. And so I'm always trying to tell myself well, that's okay. Because you're gonna refresh at night like get back, good sleep if you can, and then just start over and start fresh. So the module is more about just trying to look at every like, look at every like I have, like 10 look at each one of my kids. And just try and do the best by them. Yeah, if I had more or a dog, heaven forbid, like, I'm, I'm working on it to do. Yeah, I actually thought when I, when we talked, when I was leading up to ask the question, I thought to myself, I don't think you're gonna have any guilt related to your artwork, just because it's part of your life, your children are included in it. You're not doing your art at the detriment of anybody else. So I knew that was coming. Yeah. So it's so funny, you knew that because I had to process it. I was like, What would my answer be to this? Because in my mind, I'm like I've done so long ago. But then when I started noticing what it was, it was really those small individual things, you know, that just add up, and then you feel this collective weight? Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting, you say about, you know, resetting the next day. But this is, this is the same sort of topic that came up with another lady that I interviewed just the other day, and was saying the same thing. It's like, you when the kids were little, you always knew the sun would rise. And you could start again, and see what happens if you just wipe the slate clean and start again, the next day, and then you felt like you were doing that every day. You know, there's always hope, because you can have that time to reset and then off, you go again. Or there's a locked door to our chocolate, like whatever it takes. I'm here and yet. So have you got some projects that you're working on at the moment that anything in particular that you want to share with us about that up? Yeah, I have a magazine article that I'm working on. So I'm working on a feature article for women's artists magazine, which I'm super excited about. I just got invited last week to a local show, which I'm super excited about in Chandler, Arizona. And then last year, in the last quarter, I just got invited to practical art, which is this absolutely amazing and really neat community of artists. And it's like a gallery and a little art shop in Phoenix, Arizona, and they just love them. It's about 100 local artists. And so now I'm one of their artisans that's featured at their shop, and they're open, which is nice. And so they have like gallery exhibits all the time and sort of like wearable, livable art. So yeah. Oh, that's psycho. So you're very active in your, like, your local community with your art, getting it out there. And, yeah, I'm really trying to be you know, it was odd moving in a pandemic, and then trying to build an in person community. So we kind of, but now I feel like you know, we're almost two years and I am back physically in work at my library and job, which is just glorious. It's so nice to work with people in person. I've just been trying to make as many connections as I can in Arizona and in Phoenix, I want to start going to shows and, you know, just really trying to connect with this art community, it makes such a difference. As an artist, being a member of a community. It's so inspiring studio time can be really lonely, even if you've got kids in there. And you know, it's like, even if you have a ton of ideas, it's just so nice to see other people's work and their creative energy and support them too. So I'm looking forward to doing that more. Yes, thanks. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, someone else I spoke to talk to about how their art changes when they do when they're not in isolation, like when you're around other people. And even if you're not doing the same style of art, you can sort of feed off each other and someone might make a comment about your piece. And it's like, you can take it in another direction that you never thought of, you know, having a fresh pair of eyes look at it or someone that has no understanding of your what you do that, you know, it's can be really good thing. So 100% agree and a lot of my pushes have been based on just sort of one side comment or one observation and right now my stuff, I don't know where it's going, but it used to be behind the frame. And now it's out from behind the frame. And it's just sort of, you know, the open so you can see all the texture and nothing is protecting it. It's just hanging on the wall and then it sort of getting into these more sculptural pieces for the while and stitched in wood and so we'll see where it goes. We're still in experimental phase, but that was just kind of Based on one person's comment of how nice it was to see the texture, and sort of have more visual access to it, so it's always so interesting what creative juices are flowing from other people's comments and their minds. And yeah, absolutely, you put that very well. I couldn't find the words what I was trying to say. It's still early IV. It's not really bad. I'm, is it over there? Well, it's nearly 10 o'clock. But you know, it's early, let's do it. That's early. That first time that you saw that circle, and then you went into down that path? Is there anything you sort of find an imagery of the circle? Do you find yourself like, is there any deeper meaning in that, that circle for you? There initially was, you know, when I started doing the circles, when I started cutting the circles, it was only circles. I mean, it was only circles. And I was, in my mind, because I'm such a, I'm such a planner to the court was like, I'm going to cut circles for the rest of my life. And I will be a circle cutter. Like, I just, I go really deep in this stuff. Like, this is the plan. Yeah. And so, and I remember walking, I walk a lot with my dad. And I remember one day, he's like, Have you ever considered like, a square? And I stopped, and I looked at him, and I was like, why would I do that? Like, I cut circles. We have very funny conversations. And we're, he's a very enjoyable, and it's funny, because now I cut every shape, you know, it's like, I don't want to give him credit for that. But, you know, it's sort of like there was, there was something that was so meaningful about it never ending, you know, there was something that was very peaceful. And with all the meditation, when I first started doing all the circles and all the die, I had a totally silent studio. So I wouldn't listen to music, you know, it's like, I just used it as a full meditation. And so it's like, you could also because I was hand cutting these, and now the circles are really clean, you know, they're very circular. But when I started, I was making really bad circles, ovals. These, like lobby egg things, you know, it's like, it takes you a while to kind of clean up your, your free hand cutting. And so there was something that was so also freeing, where you could just keep editing, it's like, you just keep cutting that circle around and around and around until it looks like something that it should look like. And so I think that was really peaceful. And so it was just more sort of this personal process of meditation, and kind of getting, you know, back into the studio and back into making what I wanted to make. But there's not like a final symbol of it just being a circle. I mean, I know, there's a lot of, you know, like eternity symbols and like the circle of life and things like that, but not from a conceptual standpoint. And now I'm doing just all different shapes and trying out different dye techniques, and just sort of really experimenting with what imagery comes out. And the colors and the my palette is never consistent. I mean, it's like, it'll be hot pink and black, or you know, and I'm starting to incorporate a lot more of my printmaking. That's kind of the direction that I'm going and then doing a lot of hand printing now and then drawing the circles and then printing on top, and then taping and then stitching. And so just the processes the process, I guess that's lovely. It's quite freeing, isn't it just to be able to say, I'm going to do it this way? Or I'm going to do it that way. And that's probably probably you mean, you don't want to give the guy credit for it. But it's probably good that he said that, because it sort of gives you permission to say, well, this isn't what I'm going to do forever. I can fiddle around and and try different things and different techniques. So yeah, thanks. Thank you, Dan. So when it comes to retail, you've got all these these shapes, they're dyed, and they're ready to go. What's your sort of thinking or your process when it comes to laying them out deciding where they're going to, to lie on the paper. So there's a lot of decision, there's probably like 10 or 12 important decision points, but one of the most important is how big the final piece is going to be. Because because I don't use formulas. All the dyes are really specific. So it's like I'll die 400 things. And then okay, you have 400 things, so I didn't so I'm kind of thinking about how large I want that final piece to be before I ever even do it and then usually I'll make templates. You know, I'll cut out paper. I do a lot of drawing in my sketchbook that never makes it to Instagram because it's nothing that anybody wants to look at my guiding path and so I I kind of know all the shapes that are going to be and I Use color a lot just to think about the world. I, you know, I work in education. And sometimes education gets a little contentious people get really in, you know, rightly so about certain issues. And I've been in some very contentious meetings before and environments that are really stressful. And to try and sort of step back from some of that stress, I usually go to color. And so sometimes I'll just ask these not almost nonsensical questions of like, if that person was like, a blob of color, what would it be right now, you know, and so it's like, I'm constantly kind of drawing out these visuals or asking these questions are like relating things into shapes. And so some of that comes out into the work. Some of it is just that I'll be on a walk, and I'll see a visual or I'll see a gradation with, you know, a cactus, and then its variation with what's on the ground. And I'll take a picture of that. And then those are the two colors that end up in the work or the piece, and then part of that line, or that shape, or that feeling, then is the shape that shows up in the piece. So a lot of it is a reflection of what I'm seeing, and what photos that I'm taking or how I'm cropping things. Basically, I try and pull inspiration from everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, I will say to that, even though I'm super intentional, there's always an element of surprise, because when you dye stuff, you're putting it in the full water bath. So there's always two sides. It's like, I might, you know, do a pink and around, but then I pulled the water back, I pulled it out really quickly for half of the batch, and I left it in overnight for the other half the batch. Even though the overall shape might have been a circle, what I end up with is like a really beautiful, soft brown and pink combo, and then like an almost black and pink combo. And so then I might decide when I'm laying it out, but then it's going to be striped. Yeah, it's sort of like I'm making a decision every single time even though I have the templates, and I have the overall colors. And those are fixed. Yeah, then I'm still doing a ton of experimentation. And then I actually take the back of it, flip it over, and then I obviously am stitching the top. Yeah. Ben from the top. So what sort of material do you use to stitch with? Like, whoa, you know, I have a brand. Let me look, I think it's the Lisbeth I do used a lot of different threads. And I had a quite a bit of difficulty over the pandemic, finding some of the papers and threads that I was using, like with production delays and stuff. So I ended up switching to Lisbeth thread, which I pretty much only use now it's, this will sound funny, but it's actually super important. They, they treat it in a way I think it's something called gasps injure, it's some process that they do that makes the thread rounder. So when I'm stitching with it, you know how sometimes of embroidery thread when you stitch it on paper or wood or something and you stretch it out. It's sort of like it lays flat. I know that that's a very detailed observation. But I need it to be round, because the mark making is important. I choose the colors of the thread really carefully. If I don't have a color of thread, then I die. I individually hand die the thread. And so I want that crisp color. And it just needs to pop like that, because it's sort of like I'm drawing on the paper boats, but it happens to be with thread. And so that I'm I now just exclusively use that thread. Yeah, so you want it to sort of have that three dimension where it actually sits up a bit. It's not, it doesn't fade into the work, it's sort of up on top of it. So adds that texture as well. I just hope that people keep going, I think, you know, I think I struggled for so many years making such bad work for so long. Because I could have given up like at so many points. And I'm grateful that I did it because I I honestly feel like it took me 13 or 14 years to figure out the type of work that I wanted to make. And so sometimes I just I think people really have to be in it for the long haul and just sort of the eye on the prize is that you'll find your path whenever it decides to show up. And I'm so grateful that I kind of had the practice you know, the practice of just showing up to the studio and making really bad work for many many years. So that I could kind of come into this nice space you know, now like, not the physical space but just the emotional space with my kids. You know, now we can share it and now it's kind of this enjoyable thing. That and I just I'm so enjoying your podcast. So listen to other mothers like honestly It just being a mother being a creative is so lonely sometimes. And so hearing podcasts of other women creatives, it's just awesome. You're just you're doing such a nice job. I just love it. Thank you. I appreciate that. And that's a sentiment that a lot of women have said that it's like, it's so nice to hear that other people are going through the same thing. Because it like even a lady that I spoke to the other night both in Belfast, not Belfast, Dublin, in Ireland. And she said, it's lovely to hear that everyone around the world is going through it too. You know, it's just this universal thing that we're all struggling with. And yeah, it's that support in knowing that we're not alone is just so important. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, that's a beautiful night to finish our phone. Thank you so much, sir. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Rachel Power Australian freelance writer, editor and artist S1 Ep04 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Rachel Power is a freelance writer, editor and artist, and a mum of 2 from Melbourne. Rachel’s book “The Divided Heart: Art and Motherhood” , has supported and inspired so many of my previous guests, and I just had to speak to the woman behind the book. We chat about the book, why motherhood absolutely has to change you, the importance of having your sense of experience validated, why mothers are shamed for sharing their struggles and negative experiences, and breaking the patriarchal stereotypes around the way artists create. Rachel podcast Podcast - instagram / website Quotes spoken throughout this episode are taken from Rachel's book 'The Divided Heart - Art and Motherhood' Music used with permission from Alemjo . When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from artists and creative mothers sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mum and continue to make art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. As Susan Ruben Solomon wrote, perhaps the greatest struggle for a woman artist who has or desires children, is the struggle against herself. No amount of money, no amount of structural change can entirely resolve the fundamental dilemma for the artists mother, the seeming incompatibility of her two greatest passions. The effect is a divided heart, a split self, the fear that to succeed at one means to fail at the other. Rachel pow is a freelance writer, editor, and artist. She has contributed to many publications including Mamma mia, the big issue, Kill your darlings and the age. She has worked as a court illustrator for Channel Nine, production editor of arena magazine, and is currently communications manager for the Australian education union Victoria. Rachel is the author of Alison Ray fish, a life for art, the divided heart, art and motherhood and motherhood in creativity. After having Rachel's second book, The divided heart recommended to me from a number of guests on this podcast, I frantically tracked down the book and read it and was blown away. I was intrigued to meet the woman behind the stories that had resonated with myself and so many others. I reached out to Rachel and she was generous enough to give me this time. Rachel is a mother of two. And in this chat we talk not only about her books, but the challenges she faced in making them. The divided heart is a collection of interviews with artistic mothers, including musician Clare Bowditch and actress Rachel Griffith. Rachel's interviewees had such diverse experiences when combining motherhood and art making. And I began by asking Rachel, her thoughts around this, when I was working out those interviews for the book, their work, there was crossover themes for pretty much everyone. But your ability to cope with those things, or their approach to them could all be very different. Yeah, cuz the thing that really stuck out for me about that was that Helen, and then Helens daughter had a completely opposite take on it. Like for Helen, it was just immense, in almost catastrophic, it was just sewing in all consuming for it. And then I felt like your daughter, Alice could sort of take it or leave it like here, or at least that's the impression I got reading it, but she was so relaxed about it. And, you know, it wasn't the the, the intensity, and I just found that fascinating, just in the same family to have such incredible responses. I know, isn't that interesting? I think it's in part. It's in part, generational, definitely. But not entirely. It's definitely also about personality. And it's also about art form. I think different art forms are much easier to do around children than others. And one of the things I also found really interesting was that some people changed art forms as a result, I just do remember that one person changed the kind of art she was doing. So certainly, I remember someone talking to me about how they were a painter, probably traditionally an oil painter, you know, where there's a lot of setup, a lot of cleanup, all of those things, and she just thought I can't, you know, I can't do this. It's toxic. It's, it's not easy to find time and space to set up and clean up anymore. I'm just gonna start finger painting with my kids at the table. And I think that really changed her whole approach to her, the her art form. And so, you know, it's great when you get those stories of where it's actually you know, forced a new kind of creativity the book was written quite a long time ago, and as you would know, I wrote two editions. So, there was an early edition, which I when I started the, the divided heart as the books called, I was a journalist, so I was used to doing interviews and but I was also obviously I become a mother. I was in my A late 20s. And I got pregnant in my final year of art school. So I'd been a journalist from the age of 17. And then I'd gone back to university in my 20s. And I was part time does part time working for TV station, and part time at uni. And so by my final year of uni, I was pregnant with my, with my first child. So it was this United finally got myself to art school was sort of trying to do this thing that I really wanted to do, which was to write and paint, and then had a baby. So I think, for me, it was that shock of how to juggle everything. And I just started trying to work out, you know, where can I find examples of other people who were going through this? Or had been through this? And how did they manage to kind of find a way to negotiate these twin passions of parenting and, and creating art. And for me, at that stage, being a journalist, I suppose what I was used to doing, was researching and interviewing. And so I just started doing that, without really having any thoughts about what it would be, I thought I'd probably write an article. And then increasingly, as I, and I was just seeking out people I liked, you know, it was just a passion project where I could just say, Oh, this is great excuse to talk to these women I admire. And so I set up these interviews, but the interesting thing about it was that it was really interesting, it was really easy to set up the interviews, because pretty much everyone I contacted, was very keen to talk about this topic, and felt that no one else had asked them about it. And it hadn't, they hadn't had a chance to publicly on my own, maybe even privately really delve in to this experience. Which is not to say it was a new experience, obviously, for for women, it's been in, you know, an issue for all time. But I think maybe, you know, we're at a point where women sorry, I know I'm I'm sort of carrying on, what's interesting to me with hindsight, perhaps, is that we'd hit this sort of point where our, our mothers had been the first generation of the second wave feminists. And so we'd been told a lot about what our expectations for our life could be, you know, what that we could have at all, you know, all of those messages that, that we were, we were getting, and the sense of freedom and ambition that we all have, and should have. And then suddenly, we have children and realize how compromised that can be. And that that is an age old problem, and not really an easy problem to solve. So feminism or for you know, no matter how liberated you are, so, the fact is, we we love our children, and we want to be there for them. And our children love us and I desperately attached to us. And therefore finding space and time for something that we want to do for ourselves is incredibly difficult. I'm sort of reminded of some people that, that were in the book that that they were people were forced to do things in different ways. And through that maybe found better ways to do that art. So an example, Jen lash who's who I've interviewed recently that she because she only had 10 or 15 minutes, she became really, really good at getting things done in 10 or 15 minutes, you know, so that sort of perhaps learning better ways more efficient ways for them to do their art. Yeah, that's sort of the theme that I that I found a lot too. Oh, yeah, that was one of the strongest themes. So one of the strongest things, I think, particularly for those who were probably better at seeing the upsides or experiencing the upsides was that sense that they'd spent years kind of faffing about, you know, having 10 cups of coffee, you know, endlessly ruminating and suddenly they had no time and so it allowed them to do away with all of that. No fluff and just get on with the job. That was definitely a theme. And yeah, learning how to be really quick and efficient with the time with the time that they did have use it really effectively. And I'll also I thought what was interesting was pebble found whole new ways of working in that sense. So I interviewed Lisa, Who's In Who's the poet in the book, she, they forgotten, she talked about how she would just go on long walks with her baby in the pram, and she would just write a poem in her head as she walked, and then get home and quickly get it down. And there were lots of stories like that, where people have became a lot less precious about their work, which I think is, you know, that that's a great thing for anyone. And I suppose for me, sort of looking at that bigger picture of the way women work. It just felt it felt kind of gratifying to show up that history of men who have, you know, demanded silence and holed up in their ivory towers and had the, had their wives leave their lunch outside the door. And, you know, all of those things. I know that, you know, I don't want to say that all men are operate have operated this way. But you know, there's a strong, there's a strong, there's a lot of evidence that historically, men were able to work in very kind of intense, concentrated ways that relied on the servitude of others. And it put paid to that it showed me that no art does not require that and that men should not be able to demand that either. You know, really, it's just been a nice excuse. Curious, and if you can work that way, great. But it shouldn't rely on the work of women to allow men to work that way. Because women can show that it doesn't have to be like that. Yeah, absolutely. And a prime example of your, in your book, you talk about breastfeeding, and being writing little notes, and then suddenly, the kicks of the child's legs, kick them off, and then you're sad again, you know, and finding, like writing on a night. So remit trying to remember you got really good at remembering things. And yeah, just taking whatever opportunities you could to get down what you needed to get down. Yeah, and I loved the comment from and I think it was Susan Johnson, who's the writer who said, that she knew she could hold on to eight lines. You know, she knew that that was her maximum, if she could just memorize those eight lines, and she would get them down as soon as she could. But she worked out that that was her, you know, threshold for how much her brain could carry around. So yeah, and I do that too. I just sort of rehearse them and rehearse them and rehearse them till I can find a moment. I mean, I had my children before iPhones, and I think an iPhone would have changed my life. And you know, for all the downsides of technology and iPhones. Firstly, I think audiobooks would have saved me, you know, that would have been if I could have just breastfed and listen to books, and not have my hand kind of wrapping up every time I tried to hold this book for an hour. Or and you know, I mean, I still love writing by hand and taking notes. But if I could have been tapping away on a phone and writing little notes while breastfeed, I'm sure I would have been. So yeah, and I'm sure it's true for songwriting, too. And I know Clare Bowditch said that a lot that she uses, will probably she used to use some kind of little recording device, but now she uses her phone, and would just constantly be recording little snippets of tunes or lyrics that came to her mind. So yeah, just really using whatever you can use to whatever tools and whatever time you've got. Yeah, absolutely. I want to touch on the idea of, of having support. There's a quote, in your book that says to create, once you have children requires the commitment of more than one person. And yeah, if followed up by the Illinois duck wrote, this situation, I found both humbling and infuriating. I can completely relate to that. It's like whatever decision you make as an artist affects somebody else in the family. I think you're right. I mean, that is the most humbling thing, isn't it that suddenly all every all the decisions you would make and all the choices, you know, though pretty much your own up until that point, I mean, there might have affected your partner or your friends in some ways, but they they're not having the kind of profound effect that they can have on a family and on your children. And I guess everyone knows once you have children, if If you do have a partner, and even if you're separated from their partner, you it's an it's endless negotiation. And you know that it can become quite competitive. And I think that's a real danger, you know, who's having the worst time who's getting the most time, you know, who's had the most time out. And I think for, for myself, I didn't have grandparents, I didn't have parents around. And my, because I guess, also, I had my children quite young. So my parents were still working. So they didn't, and they weren't in the state anyway, for a little while my mother in law was, but she she had a lot else going on. So we had no regular support from outside and, and we were quite young, we didn't have well, we still have, we have money to throw around either. You know, babysitting is very expensive. And we were both working. While I wasn't working early on, actually, I and my partner and I, for a while worked part time each and that was great. When we were both working part time. And both looking after the children part time, that felt really ideal, because we both understood the pressures of both sides and both roles. And if if you can live on one part time income for a short time, which we could early on, while we were still renting, so on then I think I you know, that was a great way to live. But I know that that's not an option. And you know, these decisions are really, really difficult. And so for, for a mother. Yeah, it's it's quite a shock, I think, to feel like every thing you want to do with your life now has to be something that's negotiated and, and the implications for everyone around you. And especially your children have to be considered what was interesting, there was a few things that really interesting to me, too, in that is that even those women who did have support and I think, you know, a supportive partner is essential if you have a partner, and they don't support your right to make art, it is almost impossible once you have children or even without them, but particularly want to have children, if your partner is not going to be supportive of your right to keep making art. I don't know how you could you know how either your relationship or your heart could survive. But in terms of the broader support, I think women and their friendships become absolutely essential. And if you can find ways to share the load between you to take turns taking care of each other's children, that kind of thing, I think, becomes really vital. And then I think more broadly, this one quote is always stuck in my mind with artists saris, Tama city. So Sara Tama City is a painter, Melbourne painter, and she has a big family. So she married an Italian man, big family, lots of siblings, lots of grandchildren, and the her parents in law will babysit those children when people have to go to work, but they wouldn't babysit the children so that she could paint because they just didn't think that was legitimate. You know, that's just a mother expecting to have some fun or some time off to do this frivolous thing. We so they, you know, they're not going to look after her children to allow her to do that. And to me, that seemed entirely symbolic of the situation for artists in general, perhaps, but for particular, yeah, that judgment of what society values, I suppose, and you're just messing around doing some painting, that's, you know, that's not that sort of value enough to classify it as, as work in comics. And particularly, I think for a mother, you're that just seems indulgent. I think that's just deemed indulgent, your absolute priority should be looking after your children and, and I think the message is that you shouldn't really want to paint anymore, you shouldn't really want to have to do these things for yourself. And I think historically, I think historically, women wanting to do those things is probably even felt a bit dangerous. You know, because these are women who aren't fitting the norm who aren't willing to give up their lives to other people's needs. You know, you can see that there's a whole history of that being thought felt as very dangerous. And while that may no longer be the case in you know, that quite such a dramatic way. I think we still carry that feeling. Oh, Absolutely, it's like you're still challenging the status quo. I think you're still even the conversation over who's going to do housework, like isn't already agreed in some silent sort of negotiation that you will take over housework. Like, I don't mean the house, I think of marriage counselors everywhere. And just the horrible boredom it must be to be constantly dealing with these conversations, these arguments about the housework. It's so huge. I feel like the housework conversation is one. Yeah, it feels massive to me, because it is amazing that no matter how much how much you've assumed, you've got an equal partnership. It is incredible how housework just seems to fall to the woman over and over and over again. And ah, that is a really gnarly question. Like, I haven't worked through myself. Why that is because I'm aware, it's not only about men's expectations, there's something internal to the something that women internalize that means they take that on. And it is actually really difficult to go up against that instinct in ourselves, as well as societal expectations. And you know, it seems so prosaic to bring that down to housework, but I feel like housework is very symbolic of that bigger picture for women. Helen Garner once talked of the terrific struggle for women striving to fulfill destinies beyond being wives and mothers. It's terribly sad, she said, it's a very sad thing. A woman trying to be an artist and a mother. At the same time. It's a tremendous clash, she trailed off, perhaps aware of having innocently stumbled into one of those quicksand zones, where the implications of what you were saying are so enormous and unwieldly that you risk being swallowed up. Sad was the word she used. It's a terribly sad thing. For women trying to be an artist and mother. At the same time. There's a quote in the book that says you can never be a mother 100% of the time, because you're just an ordinary human being with different aspects to you that are not necessarily to do with the gender. Is it important for you to be more than offset in inverted commas? Just a mum. And that's not even just a mum, because we know, that's not even a correct statement. But I'm look at, yeah, of course, yes, I think the big challenge when, and this isn't just about motherhood, but the big challenge for us in our lives, going when we've got all these other demands is to keep finding our way back to ourselves. And I think that's what artists have always been so good at, you know, art is about finding your way back to yourself in whatever way over and over again. And in doing that, I don't mean that that means you're just self obsessed, or because I think what artists doing fine in finding their way back to themselves, they're finding their way back to everything and everyone, you know, because that is so universal, it's that universal language, and then that's why it's such a connector. And it's the thing that makes us feel connected to, to the world as an end to everything, both internal and, you know, and what makes us what am I trying to say that, you know, it's also what's so important beyond us? And so, yes, at the same time, I think one of the things that I wanted to sort of get it in writing the divided heart is how profound motherhood is, and that it shouldn't just be, I think, we've often got an attitude before having children that, you know, we're just going to hold on to this self, we're going to hold on to this identity, we've got motherhood is not going to change me. You know, I'm just going to, you know, I'm going to have children, but that doesn't mean it's going to change my identity. But of course, I hope you know, I think it'd be pretty impossible to have motherhood, not change your identity and your sense of yourself. Because it's such a dramatic and profound experience. And, you know, particularly for artists who are already, you know, on the whole, deep thinking people who We are interested in identity and interested in, you know, what, what changes us and who we are, then then motherhood actually, to me presents a real opportunity to, you know, this whole parts of myself that I think I just never would have had to have encountered good and bad without becoming a parent. And this would be true for every everyone, every parent, mothers and fathers, but of course, as a mother, it's, it's very dramatic, it's very transformative, because you've actually given birth and, and because of the way that your children need you. That, to me was something I don't think I've thought about before having children was the particular kind of relationship your children have to you, particularly in those early years, that's so intense, and so demanding, you know, that it can sort of threaten to obliterate you, and your sense of self. So, you know, holding on to your identities, beyond that can or who your sense of yourself outside of that will be on that is pretty, pretty difficult. So, you know, I guess what I'm trying to say is something that I felt like, in talking to women artists, most of them, most of them felt like what they really want to was to have that sense of their experience validated, and to feel like it wasn't trivial. And that being a mother is actually really significant, and shouldn't be a theme for art. And if, if you want to make art about it, and, and in whatever way it changes you, which is not always directly about your children, and I'm not suggesting you know, everyone just starts making pictures of their, their kids, it's more you know, you're you're extremely vulnerable as a mother out, you're, and your senses are alive, and all of those things that can be, you know, of great benefit to someone who's created art. I mean, it can be painful to but that's also good for art. So, yeah, I think I think all the women I spoke to really were embracing that, that change to their identity. Going, they didn't mean that they were going around, you know, saying, Oh, what am I trying to say? Because we've got that kind of also that sort of picture of motherhood, don't worry, that gets held up. For us. That's all loving nor caring, no light and sunshine. And, you know, I think the great thing about that is it can talk about how motherhood isn't like that. It's also it's incredibly difficult. It's incredibly painful. And we all need to hear that too. And I think too, there's that, that fine line where society thinks that you're just whinging about your soul? Yes. It's like, well, you want it to be mine? Well, now you've got it. You can't complain? How dare you complain about this, you know, that that's something I find challenging is that it is actually okay to express the feelings and the challenges you have without resenting being a mother. You know, of course, and there's a lot of judgment, I feel associated with that, because as soon as you start to complain, you're judged. You're not you just knocked down. You know, I, it's really strange. I mean, I, I absolutely loved Rachel casks work, book, her life's work, which I know, which is a book about her early experience of motherhood. And I know, she's been absolutely torn apart for that book, mainly by other women, by other mothers, who I think for some reason, feel very threatened by a woman complaining or expressing the challenges of motherhood is really interesting how defensive people can get and I think it's the thing that I used to say, in response to that is, if I didn't love my children so much, this wouldn't be so hard. It's difficult precisely because I love them so much. And because I actually really value my role as a mother and feel like it's an important one, and that I want to be present for my children and that I, you know, and then I feel the risk of mothering taking over really, I always still do feel that But, you know, my, my children could take up 100% of my time if I let them in. And I feel that pressure to, you know, both of my kids have, I've only got two kids, but they've both got quite, they're both quite demanding in their different ways and have, you know, one of my children has quite high level, neat learning needs. And so I, you know, I still feel that incredible guilt of not using time that I could otherwise put towards her learning needs, you know, using that time for reading or writing or whatever I might do. And this is on top of what I mean, I also work full time. So the amount of time I've got for those things on top of my job is limited anyway. So, yeah, I think that's the only response we can make is, you know, this is it's because mothers, because it's because it is such a big and important job for the whole of society, not just for us, you know, we're creating these people that are going to be out there in the world, and who are the next generation. And so it is a very significant role. And if we didn't care about that, and we didn't love our children, it wouldn't be challenging. And we've got every right to talk about how challenging it is. Absolutely. The code, a lot of comments there kind of lead into the concept of mum guilt that possibly women have been around as much when, or at least not hashtagged. When you write in your book. Yeah. How do you feel about that? I mean, I guess we've sort of addressed that a little bit, but how do you feel about that term mum guilt and, and how it impacts upon us? I mean, I think guilt was, in a way, the central theme, I suppose, or one of the central themes. Because time is so limited. You know, you make choice, you've got to make choices about how you use your time and that. Yeah, I think, I suspect, probably there's always been a lot of guilt for mothers, but we've got new, you know, we've got, I guess, with the birth of psychology, we all started becoming very conscious of behaviors and the impact that our behaviors have on other people. And at that point, I suppose mother started getting certain kinds of messages. I mean, I guess, historically, there's all sorts of reasons why politically, there's been a lot of control over women at different points, and what society would like women to do and be, you know, because it's him, there's been different needs at different times, and particularly when there's been kind of baby booms and women have been or when there's been a drop in. They call it today's they say dropping fertility, but it's not dropping fertility, like the birth. In China at the moment where they've now announced they can have three children if they want. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so there's all of a sudden, all this pressure on women to you know, get back into the home and start birthing. And I think when I started writing my book, actually, it was sort of at the height of this weird Mommy Wars, which I just thought was so awful. So is this kind of public debate, and this is the kind of thing that media loves to grip onto and whip up? Is this fight between supposedly, stay at home mums and working mothers, as if any of us are just one of those things I'll eat you know, I mean, unless if I'd say you know, most women really are very open to the fact that some woman loves staying home and that's completely fine and great if you're in a position to do that, and you're supported to do that, and, and that that's something new want to do and, and some women need to and want to work, and that's equally fine. And you know, our children grow up in a family. Every family is different and we can all look the same and we never have and, you know, children are fine. Either way, if they've got parents who are loving and aware of their needs AIDS and, you know, constructively working on helping them become functional people. They're fine, whatever. And they just children have to deal with whatever family they're given. And that's just the way it's always been. But I guess the guilt thing is big, because I think there is a quote from Helen Garner at the very end of my book, and I can't quite remember it, but I thought it was really significant, which is something along the lines of, you know, no amount of political change, or feminist action, can completely resolve the problem of women's internal experience of motherhood and guilt. And it just seems to be so intrinsic to men's experience of mothering that they can just never be everywhere at once. And that feels like what the demand the job demands, sometimes, you're trying to, you're trying to be everything to everyone, and still sort of retained some hold over, you know, your own interests and keep them somewhere on the list. So I don't, yeah, I don't have a very sort of solid answer to that. Except that, in my experience, it just doesn't seem to be something that anyone can easily do away with. And I don't quite know why that is. The reason most successful women I mean, that that was one of the interesting things, even the women, though, the most successful women in my book, so the and by that I don't, actually, by that, I don't mean, the most successful because, you know, lots of women who are making incredible art haven't had public success, but the women who'd had the most public success, didn't feel and were making squillions, you know, so they could absolutely justified in that way. Didn't feel any less guilty. And that was really interesting to me. So Rachel Griffiths, who at that time was doing some la show that, you know, she would have been making big bucks. Her partner was home full time, he was a painter, but he was home full time. They had a nanny, she could throw money at the problem that that's her words whenever she needed to. That did not stop her feeling constantly guilty. And she also mentioned that I thought was really interesting is that she didn't feel that guilty when she went out to work. Like literally just had to go to work. But she also wanted to do these class like acting classes, she still felt like she wanted to help her craft and practice her craft, and that she had a lot of room to get better. And she was doing voice classes. And she felt incredibly guilty whenever she took time out to do that. Because that felt indulgent, in a way that perhaps, you know, the job didn't. So yeah, look, I don't know how. Yeah. So for that one, sorry. I think it's a topic that people will be talking about till the end of time. Yeah. I think so. There's no such thing as dead guilties. They're, like, really interesting. And that's why I'm I keep coming back to this idea that there is something different because, you know, that was the other question I got constantly, as you can imagine, when I when I first put these editions out, and I was doing lots of festivals and radio, and blah, blah, blah, I would constantly get that question. Why haven't you included men? Why haven't you included fathers? You know, there are lots of artists fathers out there doing it tough as well. And I don't doubt that my answer to that was like write your own book, I'd love to read that book. You know, if men feel so strongly about this, then one of these artists fathers should write that book because I think it would be really interesting to hear about how, how men experiencing their this role. And it you know that especially because the times are changing, and perhaps a lot of male at us are the ones home with children, if their partners are in the the more conventional workforce. So I'm still waiting for that book. But I think the one of the reasons that book hasn't happened is because clearly the experience for women is different and arguably more acute. And I don't think men do on the whole experience. That guilt, that sense of pressure, that sense of feeling like they're meant to be in a million places at one It's yeah. And, and I think that's partly because women don't just take on? Well, I think it's because women do take on, by and large, the physical load of family life, but also, by and large, the emotional load of family life. And I think that probably is just something intrinsic about, you know, overall women's makeup. I mean, I, I'm not saying that men don't care, of course they do. And a lot of men, and a lot they, you know, there are a lot of single fathers out there who've had to really take this on. But I think that emotional load is by and large, carried by women, and usually that includes the kind of care they have to have for their partners as well as their children. And then also, I think women's friendships take up a lot of time, because women tend to be in a caring role for a lot of people in their lives, not just their immediate family. You know, they've got important loyalties to their friends, to their parents, you know, and so on that often also take up a hell of a lot of time. The writer Anna Maria de la Sol said, it's assumed that if you're serious about being an artist, you don't have small children. You make a choice early in your career, that if you're a woman, and you're going to be an artist, that she can't have children, because if you have children, then you can't be an artist. I wanted to ask you actually, I saw in your bio online that you did a book about Alison raffish. And I'm interested to know, because this is, I think, was it published back in early 2000s. Is that right? Yeah. So it wasn't a uni thesis. Right. So you wouldn't have been anywhere in this headspace when you did that book about Alison? No, because it was very interesting, because I read that she had a child, a 13 year old child, and left to go off to England to pursue a life of art when she was 33. Left, her child left her husband and wife she went yeah. And I just thought, Gosh, it would have been good to speak to her. I know. Imagine, I interviewed her daughter. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I guess I've always been interested in women artists. And I've always been interested in. I mean, I suppose I grew up probably enthralled by male artists. And it took me a long time to realize that, that women's art had been really underrecognized. And I want to started sort of thinking about that. I really started looking at Australian women artists and how many amazing women artists there were, who we'd never heard of. And so actually, my, my dad is really interested in Australian women artists too. And he, he actually collects art, you know, he goes to auctions and finds these, you know, unheard of artists in Job lots and that kind of thing. And he started collecting these small paintings by lots of women artists, actually, but one of them was Alison Ray fish. And so he started just doing a bit of research, and then we started researching her together. And I was still at uni. And I was I've never, I've never gone on to do any sort of further study because, as I said, by the time I finished my undergraduate degree, I was I was pregnant, so so it didn't have a chance to do a thesis, which is a shame because it actually would have been really good pieces. So in a way, I just sort of wrote my own thesis. While at uni, and I had a lovely I had a lovely art history lecturer, lecturer at uni called Ken vac, who was very encouraging. And I just did this in my sort of spare time. And so I yeah, I as you say, I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't aware of the of the seriousness of that. But I guess what I became aware of is that all women then to be taken seriously as an artist as an Australian. You pretty much had to make it in the UK. So people tend to go to the UK, you know, get hung at the sell on Um, you know, get some exhibitions there, get some recognition there, and then come back if they came back. I mean, a lot never came back. But but you know, if they could make it in the UK, then they could be recognized in Australia. Very few artists have managed to make a name for themselves purely within Australia in that time. And we're talking early 1900s. And Alison Ray fish was sort of working in the 20s 30s and 40s. And so I suppose I suppose she is an example of a woman who put her art first and decided that art was more important to her than family. And, yeah, kind of unbelievably, I guess. And not in the sense that I suppose it was also a time where I think women had to make a choice, though, the choice felt Stark, you couldn't live both lives. I mean, I know some women did. Of course, there were women artists who had children. But maybe for many, it felt that you either had to choose to become a wife and mother or you could be an artist, but you couldn't easily be both. And I think I obviously felt important enough to her that she felt like she had to make this choice. And maybe she decided that once her daughter was 13. And at boarding school, was old enough to, to live without her. And she took off to the UK. Yeah, for a very, very long time. And not only that, yeah, left her husband and, and took up with another man, a fellow artist, a fellow Australian artists didn't never went back, or never went back to Australia, but never went back to her husband. So yeah, it's funny, isn't it that this didn't have as much significance for me at that, in terms of the the ongoing interest I would have, as I realized at the time, and now I can see the kind of interesting link. Huh, it's yeah, it's almost like you had to experience motherhood yourself. To get in that, that space. You can't, you can't get a really good take on it by observing it from outside. What was it like? I think it took my daughter, what I've read online, of what her daughter said, but yeah, what was that? Like? Yeah, her daughter is Peggy. She there was a sense that she she was pretty closed about it, I would say so she, she was really proud of her mother. She was really proud of her mother's work. And she says she had that admiration for her mother. And I think her relationship with her mother in adulthood was actually quite okay. But I could really sense the hurt and the pain. But I guess she had that sort of stiff upper lip, and wasn't really fully admitting to, to that by the time I interviewed her, which was pretty late in her life. So she probably had a lot of time to, you know, find a way to feel resolved about it. So when when I spoke to her, she was actually pretty sympathetic and understanding about the position that her mother was in. Yeah, surprisingly, so. Yeah, that's very. But yeah, I don't even know what the words though. It's quite incredible. Do you think that Alison felt like the era she was living in there was this expectation that you just got married and had children and that was it so she just had to do it? And it wasn't too, that she was stuck in that, that she just sort of went, Oh, God, now I've got a she almost like she put part of herself aside for a little while until like you said her daughter was 13. And she felt like she could probably live without her. And then she went Riley, my life is gonna start again. Now I'm picking up where I left off basically, and, and obviously went yeah, exactly. I think that. Yeah, there was an expectation. The man she married was quite a successful businessman. So I guess she probably the security of that was probably appealing, because I don't think she came. Well, you know, she came from a very interesting educated family. But you know, no, one woman could easily support herself at that time. And so yeah, I think absolutely she she married because that was the the expectation and probably for that security. I think by all accounts, he was a very devoted father. So that probably helped her leave. But um, yeah, I think that's right. She the, the urgency or the need to make art the absolute center of her life. I think that probably was always there. And then by the time she felt she could make the break she Yeah, I think she, she was one of those people that wanted and needed to paint all day every day. And I think that's what she did. Was just so strong for it that nothing else came close. It was like she just stood to paint. Yeah, yeah. One thing I wanted to mention, there was something you touched on in your book about? You said, Why didn't anyone tell me it would be like this. It has to do with the brutal fact of time prior to having a baby, I had no real concept of time. And I just wanted to say how much I relate to that, is that I thought to myself, What did I actually do with my time before I had children? Like, I just thought, I must have wasted a lot of time. Like, I know, gosh, I know. I mean, it is so weird. That feeling of before and after in terms of your relationship with time, it because now I still feel like I've, you know, those tiny windows that you've got to you feel like there are a million things competing for that, you know, like creativity, I don't know, paying bills, exercise, you know, seeing catching up with a friend. I don't know meditating. If you meditate. I just not to mention how, you know, you could, yeah, the demands are so big. And then you feel like you've got all these little windows. And if, as an artist, you would, you would know if you don't respond to those moments and shut everything. That time can just be eaten up in a flash before you even thought about it. I mean, I, I remember, I would sort of start walking towards my desk thinking, Yes, I'm going to write I'm going to write, and then I would find myself picking up the washing basket and out in the laundry. And then I think, hold on, how did I get here. But it wasn't I'm making my way to the desk. It's like this. I thought I'm not good at that at all. I mean, increasingly, I felt like, I get why I was the one who wrote that book. Because I'm really bad at this. And I needed other people to tell me, you know, if you want to make art, you are going to have to stay so strong. To shadow all the other demands out, you have to. And the other thing, I think that the message that I felt came through really strongly was that nothing else and no one else is going to give you that permission, you are going to have to give yourself that permission to create art. You know, that's not going to come on a platter, probably everyone else is going to be quite happy if you give it away, actually, I mean, not not the people who love the work that you make, but you know, in to your kids, and maybe even your partner, or maybe even your family would be quite relieved, if you could, because it's a struggle, and it creates a lot of angst. And so yeah, you've you've I mean, I don't know, do you feel like that? Do you feel like you've got to stay really strong in that in that need and that sort of determination to create space for it? Absolutely. Because if you don't, I feel like you lose a part of who you are. Yeah, I really do. Yeah. And like you said, you're the only person that can give yourself permission and thus the divided heart like it's, it's the perfect analogy. It's you either do something that might seem like you're neglecting something else, but if you don't do that thing, then you're neglecting yourself. So it's just this. Yeah, yeah. And also I think actually neglecting yourself, you might not realize it early on. But as time goes on, if you do neglect yourself for too long, particularly with something like this, I mean for everyone, it's different. You know? What, what amounts to neglecting themselves, but in terms of art, which I think is so intrinsic to people, for people who need to make art, it's, it's actually really dangerous to neglect that part of yourself, it becomes increasingly dangerous, because then you can actually become quite hollow. And yeah, I think if we, if we allow ourselves to just merely become functional, without addressing all those other very important emotional and creative needs that we have, we are not going to be a good role model for our children. Because our children need to see people around them who do the things that they love to do, and dedicate themselves to the things that they feel are important. And that also I think that they, they see that art is real, you know, that art is meaningful, and that you can have a life of art and it's not. It's not trivial, and it's not indulgent. It's, it's important. So, yeah, I think you've got to keep that in mind, too. You know, kids don't want maybe they do, maybe they'd love, you know, vacuous automaton looking after them. I think, actually, you know, much more important to have real relationships within families, real people, you know, that kids see, get a chance to see the full person that their parents are that we allow them to see, you know, different ways of living and being. So, yeah, I think that's, that's something everyone's got to remember, not only for themselves, that it's spiritually essential to maintain those things, so that you don't become miserable and resentful, because the resentment is a big thing and resentment is toxic. So, but also, yeah, for for our children to have that. That picture of what's possible. Do you find your children now as they're growing up? Did they see that I see what you you're doing in your career and your art? And they? Is it important for you that they recognize, I guess, the importance of what you're doing and contributing to the world? Well, I mean, I can't speak for myself very well, because I haven't, you know, I mean, I do keep writing all the time, but I haven't. I mean, I've actually found it incredibly difficult to maintain my own writing. While I've been raising children and, and working. I also think that when you work in a conventional job, that's also a challenge, it's really challenging to move, why I find it challenging to move between those two modes, because that's the other difficulty with that art requires a lot of kind of quiet music and space. And it actually is a kind of it is a way of being as much as it is a practice. And I hope, actually, funnily enough, having children I think, hasn't been as challenging for me as time has gone on, as working has been to maintaining that way of being. Because there's so many, there's so many lovely things about having children, too, that I think, fit quite beautifully with a creative life. But work is challenging. And work is related because I work because I have to help support my family in a way that I might not have had to if I had not chosen to have children, I might have been able to work less and make more time for it. But I do my my daughter is a big reader. Now and which is great, because as I said she's had to really overcome some massive learning difficulties. And because of that, I think, because we worked so hard on her reading, it's made her a reader, which is and so she really loves talking about books, and she really loves talking about writing, and she's constantly encouraging me now to have a child that says you've got to write you should write you should write more. You know, he's actually really sweet and I really value that my son who's just obsessed with footy is totally oblivious. You All right. So yeah, I think yeah, I, I feel really lucky though that I think I feel like I've got a real relationship with my kids, they understand who I am. They know, I've got complex needs, and they, they're very, you know, I feel like they seen me as much as anyone ever sees them. Mom is a, you know, real person, they see me as a real person. I love that, because I have been quite open about, you know, my without, without directly sort of burdening them with with it, I have been, at times quite open about my frustrations and, you know, my desires to be more creative. And so, you know, I don't think there's any harm in harm in that. I don't sort of want to I don't want to be hanging out for retirement though. My my children is 16 and 19. Now, and so I'm feeling much closer to having that time where it's amazing how you think 16 and 19. You know, you think, Oh, well, the youth should be completely free. Now. Maybe some people would be but no. Like, getting my son through year 12 was like one of the most hellish years I've ever had, maybe particularly because it was in lockdown. So getting a child through year 12, while you're basically at home, doing remote learning is something I don't ever want to have to do again. But But I do feel like I'm getting closer to not so much just time and space, but my mind being my own, and not having to be as full of every everyone else's needs as it used to have to be. So you know, there's liberation ahead. Like, yeah, more creative space and time. I mean, I've sort of written, I've written a novel in draft form, in in the most ridiculous bits and pieces over the most ridiculous number of years. It's embarrassing. But I'm hoping that, you know, at some point, it will take shape. Hmm, fantastic. Because I was actually going to ask you, if you've got sort of, obviously, you would have projects you're working on. But is there is there something that is close to being shared with the world? I think probably it's a few years off yet, but I have finally, you know, have inched out, I've inched ahead. The funny thing, too, I've found is that, I think probably because I've struggled so much to have time, I'll often start something new. And then I'll get into it. And then I'll look back at something I wrote 10 years ago, 10 years ago and go oh my god, it's actually this novel. I'd be writing the same novel for 15 years. Yeah, it's funny how the themes come back, and back and back. And actually, weirdly, no matter how much I tried to get away from it, the novel that I've been working up is absolutely about women and art. And it just seems to be this preoccupation. And so that is what I'm weirdly writing about. And I'm really hoping that in you know, I'll get enough time in the next few years to actually pull it all together and have it makes sense enough to be something that could be Yeah, published. We'll see Fingers crossed. Oh, I wish you luck.

Alicia Lis Verso Australian singer, songwriter and musician S1 Ep01 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Welcome to my new podcast. I am thrilled to have you here! My first guest is Alicia Lis is a Melbourne based singer, songwriter & guitarist, high school teacher, and a mum of 2 boys. We chat about how she manages the different 'compartments' in her life, how important support is from others and the importance of modelling hard work to her children. Alicia Soundcloud / Youtube / Instagram Podcast instagram / website Alicia's music used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. got a hold of me and my guest today is Alicia verso who goes by the stage name Alyssa Liz. She is a Melbourne based singer, songwriter, and guitarist. Welcome to the podcast, Alicia. Thank you so much, Alison. It's a pleasure to be here part of your podcast and your very first one too. Yeah, so exciting. This is this is great. Thank you for being here. So for those who may not be familiar with you Angel music, could you tell us a little bit about yourself? Well, what can I say I'm mature age. And I'm just like me and I'm 40 I'm actually few days shy of 41. And I'm just after a really long break getting back into the music industry. I started studying when I was you know, sort of straight out of high school, studied music and had you know, high hopes and ambitions to to write music record it which I did start doing and gigging and I started doing that, you know, started doing both gigging with a, you know corporate duo slash trio. And also also with my original music with a with another artists that I met at, at TAFE we would do you know, our own stuff together. And she played bass I play guitar. And yes, I took a took a long break. And so really, my my music is to start off with was very contemporary, kind of, you know, sort of you think back in the early sort of 2000s It was very much like indie type bands where, you know, a lot of the music and listening to were musicians that play their own instruments that wasn't there was sort of starting to merge using electronic looping but not as much waves I love Joel are crowded house, Pete Murray, just trying to think I loved you too, back then. Yeah, just a lot of a lot of those types of that genre. And then when I started studying, it was very much a fusion of jazz and blues with a little bit of contemporary element to it. But that overdoing like going to VCA or you know, studying classical, yeah, that is, you know, you know, how can you not, you know, two years of studying that got quite influenced with jazz and blues and so there was like, one of my songs that were quite heavily influenced the shape up with that genre. And, and so, yes, I've kind of got a little bit of that influence now. But a lot of the stuff that I've written was 15 years ago, and so now I'm, you know, looking now forward to start writing some new material. So that's kind of being a bit of a challenge to find the time. So you and I first met on Instagram a few months ago, through and online Stage Door singing competition, which you won. Congratulation mask. Fantastic. And then you also had some success recently with your song shape up which won the June competition on radio Easterns Talent Search. Congratulations on that too. You've won a bit of a roll at the moment. No, absolutely. And three's a charm. I'm wondering what number three is going to be? To buy a lotto ticket maybe. So tell us a little bit about your family, then you kids and that kind of thing? Yeah, well, I've got two boys. I was actually just talking to Harvey this morning. I had I had a vivid dream, and I never have them. And I was pregnant. In my dream. So I was like, no, no. Unless, unless, you know can be I can audits a girl. But still, I'm done and dusted. So two boys, Max is going to be 11 in a bit over a week. And I've got Jackson, there's a bit of an age gap between the two who's five, almost five and a half. And so both at school, which is great. And so I've got hubby as well, who's really super supportive of my, my aspirations on on, you know, taking a leap into back into the music industry. For myself. And yeah, we've been together for over 2020 years now, I think 2322 23 years, something like that. That's great. You see music a little not at all. So I'm a bit of a lone wolf in the family. None of my boys have been really super interested in music ALA. Yeah. You never know. So that that style of competition the stage or being all online, did you find that that really suited you with the kids being at home? Or are you finding a bit easy to get out? More these days? Look, I really, I enjoyed it being at home. And like, with like me saying my husband's very supportive. He, he really, if I need to, like even just for this afternoon, if I really need them out of my hair, you'll either you know, take them out like he has today or if you know, obviously when we're in COVID We couldn't you know, he just made sure he just keep him sort of occupied. Yeah, look either ways. Fine. Like I know, I did have a gig in May. And so that was, you know, that was fine too. He's happy to stay home and look after them. He's really good. But yeah. As long as I just said right, this is what I communicate with him and say this is what's happening. This is my cut off. This is what I need to do. This is sort of roughly how much time we just kind of you no work he just helped with working around that with me. That's so good. That's so important, yeah. So obviously, you've you've talked a little bit about your life before you had children. Your music was a really big part of your life. It was you've studied your work as a music teacher delve into a little bit more about was it always your dream to do music? Sort of how many how many hours we you'd be out of the house doing your gigs? Was it it? Was it like almost a full time sort of commitment to music? Or kids? Yeah, definitely. I mean, with the study, being immersed in it. I even my part time job was at JB Hi Fi so it was a big? Yeah, I would have to say even with my spare time on weekends, I would spend that year rehearsing either for the, for my, you know, the corporate duo, or even with my friend as well. So or, you know, or weekday, because when I had time during the week when I was at uni, so yeah, it was pretty much like night and day it was yeah, all about all about music beforehand. I didn't really take music sort of seriously up until very late high school. So until I was in VCE. And it was like yeah, this is what I want to do halfway through year 11. Though I did pick up my guitar and start learning from the age of 15. But then voice came later. Yeah. Yeah. But before that I wanted to become an actress. Yeah, right. Either and all that. And I got really crappy crappy marks. And I was just absolutely shattered. I'm certain that that I can't. I'm not made for this, obviously. So enter music now that was yeah, that became my passion. Yeah, yeah. So when you were pregnant with your first child, did you sort of find performing wise was a bit more challenging obviously, as your body was changing. I know I had a lot of issues with breathing, I struggled with struggle to work out how to breathe properly, my diaphragm while I had a baby sitting on sort of find that sort of stuff, or how do you go with it, I stopped Well, before I got pregnant, because once I started teaching full time, I just thought I'll do teaching. And that can kind of be sort of, you know, something that I do while I, I, you know, try and do my music on the side. But once I started full time, forget it. Like it just really took over my life. And so about a year and a half after teaching was when I felt pregnant. And I remember when my firstborn was six months old, I was taking in that. And the guy, this guy, Chris, that we used to do the duo with him, he called me and I was in the middle of having my nap while my son was having it. And I was just completely bombed out. And he's like, Oh, hey, guy wanted to see what I was up to. And I'm just like, Oh, I've just I've had it. I'm just like, Oh, I'm so tired. I just, you know, it was just like, there was just no thought in my mind at any time soon to get back into any sort of like singing or, you know, in music, you know? Just wasn't on the radar. Not on the radar. No, hit me like a ton of bricks having the first one. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a lot of support around you at that time? Do you have your family in in Melbourne with you or I had my mum is as well as my hobby. My mum is so super supportive, like even now. I see her every week. And even now that I'm full time work, and she's retired, she'll come, you know, one day a week and to kind of give me a hand around the house, let's say, yeah, really, really good. And yeah, she's also supportive of what I'm doing as well. So yeah, even with that support, I was just like, yeah, just exhausted. But yeah, no, it wasn't till a couple of years later that I Yeah, there was there was reasons why. I wasn't I wasn't 100% Well, I wasn't sure what was going on. Because I know I'd go to mothers groups, and, you know, the mums, you know, we all say we're tired and all that sort of stuff. But the mum still had like energy to go out for coffees and things and I just be like, Nah, I just don't have that energy. And I thought there's something a bit not right, you know, like, why am I just so exhausted at all I can be bothered to do is just take care of my kid and just not have that energy to do anything else. You know, muster the energy to go to, to mother's grief, and even that was like, a chore for me too. And so I remember going to the doctor's because I'd get quite sick quite often, and it would take a really long time to shake off at cold. He said, we'll do a bit of a test for you. Like, you know, like, I'll ask you some questions and I didn't know what he was wearing. He's getting at but he was asking me some questions and and he kind of gave me a little number out of a number. I don't know if it was at a 10 or whatever. And he said, oh look, you kind of like borderline you've got anxiety and a bit of postnatal depression, but it's not. It's not extreme, but it's you know, it's there. And sometimes that can have an impact, you know, on your well being and also your, your immune system and so, okay, so I got like, one of those those six packs, we get like the six free canceling sessions. Yeah, yep. Yeah. So I went to those and, and look, it was good. It was good to talk to someone and but I was still very tired. And then with more tests, and I don't know, there was something I read in a book. And it was cat it was about Candida and Candida albicans which is when you have Have an overgrowth of the bad bacteria in the stomach versus your good bacteria? Yeah, that can just throw everything out of whack your immune system and you're constantly tired, because I remember I would find it really difficult to, you know, to sleep as well. And it was kind of linked all the way back to also when I realized now when I had Max, my first that I was, I had an intravenous antibiotic when just before I had him and I think that that massive amount of antibiotics that was pumped into me, just completely ruined my gut bacteria. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. So I was just like in this, like, like, my head was in the clouds for like two years until I finally realized what it was because I saw so many doctors that when I went to a nap, I went to a naturopath, this time that specialized in it. Like, right, yep. did another test to confirm it. I think it was a saliva test. And that confirmed that I had really high levels of the Candida and he's like, right got me on a Candida diet, which was cutting out all sugar or dairy or weight. It was nuts. It was first month, I was even more exhausted. And I was like, what's going on? I should be feeling better. And I said know what it is. It's all the Candida that's dying off. And it's actually pouring out all the toxins in your body. It's releasing it, but your body's not obviously not getting rid of it fast enough. So yeah, this is one thing after the other. But my God probably took me about a good year. I've kind of feel like I was normal again. Yeah, right. Yeah. So there was just like, I was just in survival mode. Yes, literally living living day to day just was to do Yeah, it was a really crap. And it was like, I was back at work just two days a week because that's all I could do. And even the days I was at work, I was just in a in like, like a daydream. I don't know, I don't even know I just functioned it's and I think because of that. I've put a lot of pressure on my adrenal glands as well. So everything was just all over the place. So I think that's why I had such a big gap because my after getting over that I just My aim was if I was going to have another child, I'm going to be the healthiest that I can be so that when I do have another child, I'm not going to have to go through all that again. So after you had Jackson then how was your health then? Ah, heaps heaps better. Um, I had lost because I put on 20 kilos my first so I've lost all of that. I'd actually stayed off the wheat and the dairy and the sugar because I found when I went back on it again, I got the Candida but I knew the signs and then I was like, right, go back onto the Candida diet again. So now I don't leading up to the pregnancy and even now I don't have wheat. I don't very it's I cut back. Like I don't have sugar. It's very rare. And dairy I still have a bit of that on my health was so so good. energy levels were a lot better. Weight was a lot was better. I'd still do put weight on and just the way my body is when I'm pregnant. And I had a natural birth. I didn't have any I was like no, no, no, they wanted to pump antibiotics into me again or like not not having it. Especially after what I went through last time so yeah, it was heaps heaps better. Yeah, that's wonderful. Yeah. Stuck between your two boys after you did start to feel better after that sort of year afterwards. Did you? Did you look back into your music? I did, actually. But it took a complete sideward turn in that when Max was about three. So when I started feeling better, I was taking him to mini maestro's. I don't know if you've you've probably have many monasteries in South Australia In Australia wide. Yeah, I have heard of it. Yeah. So it's like a little preschool music program. and fill up for toddlers. And I was typing into that. And then I was taking him to another, another mothers group that was just run by us. And so all the activities were based on, you know, whatever we sort of come up with. And so I was like, Well, how about you know, like, you know, some some days, I'd bring in my guitar, and we can sing some songs. And then I started going, Well, why don't we make something Arty, something crafty. And then we can use that in the songs and get them moving. And then with that, I kind of come up with this concept called Creative tots, Australia, which is infusing new music, movement, and crafts, and started developing lessons, creating songs on GarageBand. So, you know, using my music background, as well as my educational background, as well. And, you know, made a logo, so had a professional logo made, I had a website made, I've still got the Facebook page up, which is one of the links in my Instagram, on my Instagram, LinkedIn, bio. And, yeah, I've bought instruments and asked and, like, everything that I needed, or my materials and, and stuff to promote myself. And I started going to, to like other play groups and saying, hey, you know, I've got this, this new this program, would you like me to come in and, you know, give it a trial. And, you know, give me some feedback on what you think, went to the local library and did the same thing. And I actually repainted carpet in my garage to make it into a space and I kind of went to audit all the foundational stuff. And I fell pregnant with Jackson. So yeah, I've got puppets on this one hand puppets as well. So like, yeah, I've got all everything's in the garage. Yeah. Everything's still there. But that's something another project that I'm gonna get to. It's sort of like it's waiting. They're just ready for you to pick it up when you're ready. Yeah, when I'm ready, not ready yet. There's a few things I want to do first, before I go back to it, that thing that I want, again, I did professional development as well. So there's another program by they're very well known in Melbourne. They do educational stuff for schools, books and music for pre pre schools and primary schools. I don't know if you'd call it a hood. Susie, and Phil Davis split up. Music is their program. So yeah, so I did a couple of professional development courses with them. So I put a lot into it in that sort of, yeah, three to two to three years. But before Yeah, I fell pregnant with Jackson. Like I was even about to do another course with them. When I was probably about booked in seven months, and got to seven months, it was in January, which is really warm up and I was like, Nah, I can't do it too much. So yeah, so yeah, definitely back in the music, but more in a different different way. Yeah. Fine doing that. That you you met your own need, you know, being involved in music. Did you sort of feel like you might have been helping the mums to like, did you see it as but you were also giving something back? To your community, I suppose. And helping mums? Yeah, yeah, I did. Actually, I actually. What else did I do? I was also ending the classes with meditation because I was in into the meditation at the time to incorporated that. And yeah, one of the mums in did mention that. She's like, I've never seen my child so relaxed, like that. Good way to kind of, you know, because you've raised them up was a good way to kind of settle them down and bring them down the end of the lesson. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And I guess you're giving some of these kids might not have had any sort of exposure to music and instruments and that kind of stuff before so yes, that's fantastic, too. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. We talked a bit about support early you've got your husband and your mom within your own sort of work circle at the moment or your your colleagues your music, sort of circle. Do you have any others around you that share this sort of motherhood slash music experience, or do you find It's not really that anyone, I feel very isolated actually. Yeah, that I'm in my faculty is very small. So I've only got one other colleague who teaches music and she has no children. Look, actually, my instrumental teachers are actually no, I've got two that that have got children. I don't know, of one of them, my vocal coach, she, she's got, she's got one son, a young son, I haven't actually, you know, sat down and spoken with her. So this might be a really good thing to kind of open up with them. They, you know, how they, how they cope with their creativity, and yeah, balancing that with with kids. But otherwise, you know, like, I've got the downhill performance coaching that I've been part of, since October, August, sorry, August of last year. And I'm actually the oldest, it's sort of me. And then 25 is the next eldest, and then it's like, 19, and all the way down to eight. So even the teachers, they none of them have got kids. So I feel very isolated, even within that, that sort of performance coaching family that I'm part of as well. Yeah, it's interesting isn't like, you can be a part of something and share something so strong, but then that with them lacking that experience of of being a parent, because it can create quite a separation, I guess, at different types. Have you found sort of any times where, and even through your work that people just don't get it? When you're a mom and you need, you might need to change something or do something because your kids need you? Like, people don't understand they sort of, because they don't, they don't have children? They don't get it. They're like, Oh, really? Like, have you found that happen at all? No, not really, actually. I think most people are pretty good. And if if they haven't got children, they've got you know, close family members that have got young children, and they're quite understanding of seeing how they travel, you know, and how hard it is for them. Look, it's completely different when you've got your own like, you can't compare but you know, I think most of being pretty good. Let's take six and I am not your SWANA. So we've raised the topic, this concept of mum guilt that that phrase that society is created for us. How do you feel about that? The mum guilt and Yeah, funny that because I was at a podcast, a live podcast on Thursday night. It was filmed. I don't know if you've heard of the Melbourne housewives? Sure. Have you heard of Jackie Gillies? Yeah, I actually I saw your your Instagram post and I was jealous. I was hurt because Julia Maurice was on there was interviewed a Jackie Gillies was interviewing Julia Morris and Julia Morris, who is, you know, in the show beers, and she's got two kids of her own. And Jackie was interviewing her and asking her about, you know, how do you find the balance? And she's like, hard work hard works work times work. So there's no bloody difference. And she's like, do you get guilty you know, being off working, especially with the gig she's got at the moment with I'm A Celebrity Get celebrity out of here because she she goes overseas for that down South Africa. And she said, You know what I used to she goes, I just think guilt is bullshit. And you shouldn't have to put that on yourself. And it's taken me until I'm 53 to kind of realize that so it was like for me, it was really good to hear someone else it's almost like it validates your own feelings when you hear somebody else say it. Yeah, so you know what? It goes I used to come home and go Oh, give me you know, lots of cuddles a year worth of colors that I missed. And she said I don't do that anymore. I just come in and slip into the way like as if I hadn't been away for such a long time, you know, not make such a big deal out of it. So it was really good to hear that because hoes, I do. I do feel guilty, especially, you know, when I'm out. I'm out on a Monday night. I've gotten another lesson on a Tuesday. Or, you know, if I'm doing some recording here for my, for my music, and that's like time thinking that's time precious time I could be with my kids. So I do feel guilty about that, you know? Does that come from yourself? Or do you feel judgment from society or others? Yeah, I definitely think it's from myself because I'm someone who's very have a lot of high expectations. So I kind of feel like, you know, I knit with the time that I've got, especially now I'm working full time. I need to be spending more time with my children now while they're young. Making sure I have that connection. But my husband always you know, he's really good. He'll go to work. They love you. You know, they really love you. Remember when you weren't feeling well, and they were all worried about you? You know, they really love you don't worry. So my husband tries to sort of, you know, say no, don't worry. Don't stress ratio. Are you here ratio? Me? Yeah. Do you did kids have that? Do they get into music? Like they know that you're doing music do that? Are they interested in like, do they come to gigs or anything like that? No. Look, I'd love to one day when I suppose I don't look I've asked Max and if he wanted to come to come to them and he's like, nice he's not really too interested. Like that's my eldest because he's you know, to kind of sit still and not you know, muck around and run around the room. Oh, my youngest would come in in a heartbeat. I think there's one thing that does make me guilty more so with my youngest is that he every time I'm out, he'll say I miss you mom. I miss you. I missed you all the time. It's nice a stabs I feel like I have to you know cuz I'm just like, oh, no, you poor little thing. Oh, dear. They're lovely. Identity, obviously when when you're not a mum, you can be anything you want. And then you become a mother and and do you have this? Is a this concept of being more than I don't want to say just a mum because that's not true that we are so much more than just a mum. But do you feel like it's important to you to maintain your own identity outside of being a mum, so maintain? You're a singer, you're a wife, your teacher or that kind of thing? Is that something that's important? Yeah, I'm actually really good at compartmentalizing different parts of my life. Like, you know, when I'm a mum, and a mom and sometimes even like that, I could be doing things with the boys and I'm guilty of you know, being on social media, which is really bad. And but yeah, I'm pretty good. Like when I'm at school, I'm teaching mode when I'm at home. You know, Mum, wife mode, and when I'm doing my music staff, it's yeah, it's I'm musician Alyssia. You know, the less the less so I'm pretty good at compartmentalizing? Is that why you chose to have a stage name to separate the two worlds for yourself? Yeah, yeah. Just to separate the mum, I'd know the me to yeah, having something separate, to identify as, yeah. Do you think? Do you kids sort of are they aware of what you're creating? Like they they see that, that you're making music that you know, and do you want them to, to know that to sort of show them that mums can still do things, I guess? Yeah, that's a good question. No, they definitely know for sure. And they know it's a big part of my life. Like even yesterday. I was part of the Dan Hamill performance photo shoot for their for their marketing. They do every sort of three to six months and We were out in the city and I got them to come with me, so that they could see where I'm coming everywhere I go every week. Yep. And my eldest is like, ah, kind of on the way out in the city every week, because he Yeah, I do. So it's, it's good for them to see that good for them to see. I think it's a really good lesson for them to save you, you know, that you've got to put the hard work in to you know, to get to set your rewards. That nothing comes easy. And you do what you have to do. To get, you know, what it is that you want. I think that's like really important. Like, you can be, you know, get the best grades. But really, I think when it comes down to it, it's got to do with hard work and dedication. So I hope that they they see that they see that and then one day, that kind of brushes off on them. Yeah. Yeah, but ya know, they definitely, they definitely do know what I'm doing and, you know, keep them in the loop. I don't know how much they really sort of care. But I know I've the funniest thing I'll tell you there was one of my showcases, when we're in lockdown last year, I obviously had to film it online. And I'm all done up with you know, red lipstick because I was and massive eyelashes and dressed up. And I walked out from the bathroom to my study. And past all the boys and Mexico's my eldest, Pam, you look ridiculous. And then my youngest goes for Mum, you look really beautiful mum looks like creatchi just funny the dynamics. See what I do to you know, to put on you know, dressing up or part of it to put on a you know, a show or performance. That's gorgeous. My little one he often say that and say Ma'am, you look beautiful, and just sort of put my dressing gown on and I feel like rubbish. But he's there to pump me up. He's a good little fella. Yeah. Is there anything else that you wanted to share any sort of any further sort of thoughts on any issues that we might not have? chatted about so far. I just I don't know, I suppose it's just the creating that balance. Because for me, it's always a massive, massive struggle, especially now that I'm working full time to find that balance. I'm really, really good at multitasking, but it's forever keeping. I feel like I'm always floating above water and be a bit lovely to know what others are doing. But just floating above water, to find that balance of time for myself for my music, for work, my work demands that I have demands as a mom. And I think the one thing I've learnt is that if you can have at least one or two people like I do that are really supportive and willing to help out like that's everything, you know, like I wouldn't really be able to do all this without the small support network that I've got, which is my mom and my husband. And any for anyone listening like it doesn't have to be a partner or a mountain, it could be an auntie or could be a really good friend or, you know, as long as you've got someone that you can be there to kind of take a bit of a load off or to help out so that you've got that time. Like even last year, in lockdown what kept me sane and sort of helped with time was we had a living or pair. We had someone who lived I mean, we had less space in the house. But I had an extra hand. So that helped as well. So it could be anything really Yeah, find find what works, what works for you get that balance to find that time to do everything is being pulled in all these different directions and you've got a sort of like you said before, I think that idea of sort of putting things into little compartments and trying to keep things separate. That's that's a really good idea. Yeah. So what do you have coming up in the future Alicea in the future because I have never formally released anything. That's a plan that I've got Within the next sort of six to 868 months so working with my current vocal coach she's got a plan put in place some goals over the next six months so one is well, you know writing up the setlist bio. Also going to record some new music, which I did mention earlier and use that pack that I that I got from the stage door comm to on that and get the video to go with, with the song that I can release and some, some a couple of professional photos that I can use for the release. And do a she wants me to do a launch show as well. So if not at the end of the year, maybe early next year. That's very exciting. Yeah. So you can find this year's original music on SoundCloud and YouTube and follow her on Instagram and all the links will be in the episode description. Thank you so much for being on today. Lisa, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much, Alison. It's been a pleasure. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic

Steve Davis Father's Day Ep - marketing consultant, comedian, educator + podcaster S2 Ep62 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts The second of my special episodes to mark Australian Father's Day 2022 features Steve Davis, a marketing consultant, educator, comedian, theatre reviewer + podcaster from Adelaide, South Australia, and a dad of 2 girls. Steve was passionate about being in radio. He recalls being 12 years old listening to his red transistor radio in his bedroom and deciding then + there he was going to be a radio announcer. This morphed into journalism + Steve spent countless years in radio newsrooms in Adelaide. After being in the newsroom on the day the Twin Towers fell on September 11th , + witnessing the way the journalism was used to fuel fear + increase ratings in the weeks following, Steve became quite jaded. He quit within a week and joined a marketing company and was there for the next 19 years. He then decided to go out on his own and started his own marketing consultancy, Talked About Marketing, which is based on a saying by one of his literary heroes, Oscar Wilde: There's only one thing worse than being talked about and that's not being talked about. In 2013 Steve was looking for a creative outlet and started The Adelaide Show Podcast, a show that passionately showcases the people of the great state of South Australia. The podcast proudly holds the title of Silver for Best Interview Podcast in Australia in the Australian Podcast Awards 2021. Apart from podcasting, after hours Steve does character-based stand up comedy as his two alter egos: Professor Sebastian Longsword from The MBA School of MBA Credentials, and Social Sales Whisperer, Darren Hill. Both have websites + linkedin profiles, + get booked to MC events + deliver talks. Steve has appeared on the reality tv series Is This Thing On? reflecting on his experience in the School of Hard Knock Knocks comedy school. Steve is driven by curiosity and says the formal setting of an interview is his natural habitat, whether that's in a studio or around a dinner table. Today we enjoy a really fun, lively, and at times quite serious chat covering journalistic integrity, raising girls and the significance and authenticness of including children in your art and creativity. **This episode contains discussion around a near death accident + still birth** Explore Steve's worlds : Talked About Marketing / The Adelaide Show Podcast / Professor Longsword / Darren Hill Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to gain touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on my special episodes to mark Australian Father's Day 2023 Steve Davis is a marketing consultant, educator and trainer, comedian, theatre reviewer and podcaster from Adelaide, South Australia and is a dad of two girls. Steve was passionate about being in radio from a young age. He recalls being 12 years old and listening to his red transistor radio in his bedroom at home and deciding then in there, he was going to be a radio announcer this morphed into journalism and Steve spent countless years in newsrooms across Adelaide radio. After a negative experience in the newsroom in Adelaide on the day the Twin Towers fell on September 11. And the weeks following Steve witnessing the way journalism was used to fuel fear and increase ratings. Steve became quite jaded. He quit within a week and joined a marketing company and was there for the next 19 years. He then decided to go out on his own and started his own marketing consultancy, talked about marketing, which is based on a saying by one of his literary heroes, Oscar Wilde, there's only one thing worse than being talked about, and that's not being talked about. In 2013, Steve was looking for a creative outlet, and he started the Adelaide Show podcast, a show that passionately showcases the people of the great state of South Australia. His podcast holds the title of silver for best interview podcast in Australia in the Australian Podcast Awards of 2021. Apart from podcasting, after hours, Steve does character based stand up comedy, as he's to alter egos. Professor Sebastian long sword from the MBA school of MBA credentials, and social sales whisperer, Darren Hill, hashtag D H. Both have a website and LinkedIn profiles, and they get booked to emcee events and deliver talks. Steve has also appeared in a reality TV series, based on his experience in the school of hard knocks knocks comedy school called hits this thing on. Steve is driven by curiosity, and says the formal setting of an interview is his natural habitat. Whether that's in the studio or around the dinner table. Steve certainly inhabits a strange world and he wouldn't have it any other way. He is a self proclaimed microphone tart and enjoys being behind the microphone. Today we enjoy a really fun and lively but at times quite serious chat, covering journalism, integrity, raising girls, and the significance and authenticity of including your children in your art and creativity. This episode contains discussions around a near death accident and stillbirth. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you health professionals, or from resources online. You can find a list of international resources that I've compiled on the podcast landing page Alison newman.net/podcast music you'll hear on today's episode is from LM Joe, which is my ambient and new age music trio comprising of myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode thank you so much for coming on stage. It's a real pleasure to have you here on a special Father's Day episode. I'm a little bit daunted, to be honest, but I'm glad to have the chance to chat with you. Lovely. So we have met before you know full disclosure for the audience. I've met you before and I've I'm a fan of your podcast and you've been generous enough to include some of my music on your podcast in the past. So I'll just say that first. So if we talk about things and people go, I don't know what that means. You know, just put that out there but so for those I don't know what you do. Steve, can you share? What, what you spend your days doing? All right. Let's do the day part of my day that's been running my business, which is called talked about marketing, which is a little marketing consultancy. There's about five of us who hover in that orbit, primarily working with small business. And it's named after a very famous quote from Oscar Wilde, who's my literary hero, which said, there's only one thing worse than being talked about. And that's not being talked about. And when I got tipped out of a nest as in before, and had to start my own business, it just hit me in one bit that Oscar Wilde has been my totem, if you like, throughout my life, and it was just perfect to call that. So that's what I do throughout the day. And, you know, that takes me all over the place. At nighttime, it's a little bit mixed up. So I do the Adelaide Show podcast. As my, one of my little, I consider it a little community gift. I love doing it. I love sharing stories that are often heard. But then I also have ventured into the realm of stand up comedy. We might get to how that happened later. But in that I have since evolved to have two different characters. Professor Sebastien long sword who's a doddering old MBA professor. And Darrin Hill, who is a sleek, they're not sleazy, he is a he just thinks he's cooler than he is. He's a social media sales whisperer. And the sales whisperer his his big thing is hashtag D H. Which he is completely unaware of the dual meanings of that they just thinks it's his initials, but it's emblematic of how he is. Anyway. That's what I do in the evenings. Primarily, they're the main things. And look, I'd also do theater reviews. So I suppose that falls under the artistic banner, as well, reviewing Theater, which I've done for both 30 years now. Yeah. And are you still doing your training where you, you teach social media and things like that? That's right. That's part of my day job. Okay, Emily read recently over in the wonderful, far western South Australian town of Sedona doing that last week, which is about as far away from the side of South Australia that you're on? Yeah, that you could possibly get to. So, no, I'm still doing a lot of that. Oh, great, because that's how you and I first met, and when I came to one of your trainings, which was awesome. I told my dad I had to do it for for his work, but really, I was doing it for my own selfish proceeds. Yes, I remember the rationale. Yeah. And I should mention to you are from South Australia, you're in Adelaide. Have you always been living in South Australia? For most of my life, except when I turned 25. My girlfriend at the time had gone traveling Europe to find herself. And so that was it. Ball of tears, things are over. And then about 18 months later, she says that I've just discovered Hungary. I think you'd love it. So I went over and stayed for a week. There's my goodness, the stories from that week. We fit in Budapest, Vienna, and Venice. I was flying back. Sorry. We were flying back on how to fly back on New Year's Eve on whatever that year was 1991 and had to catch a train from Venice into Vienna. I booked a hotel room at the Vienna Hilton. The only place left was 350 bucks. When we got their. They said sorry, we had to let your room to someone else. So this is before mobile phones and all that sort of stuff. So what were you doing? She said there is an option. Would you mind if we put you in the Presidential Suite on the 18th floor for no extra charge? Ah. Which was fascinating. But of course when you were in that room, your whole half of the top of the Vienna Hilton on New Year's Eve, you use room service, so it ended up costing 550 bucks, but it was worth it. Anyway. So I ended up came back gave notice. I had been working at the one radio station for seven and a half years gave notice and went back a month later with a one way ticket and lived in Budapest for two years. So apart from that I have lived in South Australia. I am sorry, I just wanted to footnote my references to living in Budapest happen often it just pops up in life it shouldn't it's sad. You think there'll be some other anchor in my life, but I've got a dear listener who's listened to the Adelaide show from day one. His name is Alexis Catalina and he has a drinking game. Any episode where I may In Budapest or living in Hungary that's a really well, hello, you listening? Yes. Thanks for Yeah, one for me, do you? So going back to your beginnings, how did you first get involved? Like you're pretty you said you were you were doing something previous to starting your own business. Was that sort of in the same area? Like we always involved in this sort of, sort of area? No, it was radio. And I remember being 12 years old, sitting on my bed at home listening to five ad, which was the hot station at the time on a little red transistor radio. And whoever was on I think it was Matt Ford, but I can't remember they did a crossfade. From Deep Purple's Smoke on the Water to races, I think was racy or smoke is Oh, Carol. Yeah. You couldn't think of the worst two songs to put one after the other one is heavy grands, bluesy grant, and the other one is pop. And at that moment, I just looked up in the air and said, This is what I'm going to do. I want to be a radio announcer. And so at that point, I just fixed my head and no one could talk me out of it. I remember in high school, towards the end with the career vocations, the teachers are saying, Look, you're doing well. You shouldn't be you know, no. Radio, there's no you got it. So I had to choose down three careers. And I thought back of this, so I put down president of USA is option number one. I put down I think it was NASA astronaut number two, and radio announcer number three is at their jet. Show and I did the 12 just to fill in the time because I thought no one's going to hire a 15 year old Pimply kid as a radio announcer. And after I did a radio school course with Vaughn Harvey, the late great phone Harvey whose voice still echoes around the universe today he had one of those voices that was like, hello, I'm Warren Harvey. This is the Harvey Cardwell report. He was a very wonderful man that about three foot high like a beard of GNOME, but he was amazing. Ah, there's a there's a possibly legally questionable story that's fun to tell that involves him in my time in Hungary, which are migratory. But long story short 18 months out of school doing part time jobs. He said, Steve five and you at Mary bridge have contacted me there's a job coming up. Can you go to an interview on Sunday morning. And this now of people who don't know I was in Adelaide, Mary bridges a country town about 50 minutes away. I had no idea how far away it was. For me it was the country. So that's like three hours minimum. So I got a good mate to meet me and off. We went at 6am to go to this 10 o'clock appointment. On a Sunday, we had packed an esky. We're talking 1985 Here, packed an esky we had we end at 6:50am It's Welcome to Murray Bridge. And so we had to kill time. Anyway, I went in, did the interview at 10 and came out and said I'm on air at three o'clock this afternoon. So anyway, that started my role there. And I worked there for seven and a half years in radio. And then that turned into journalism. I mean, the radio got work in Budapest as well. I started doing some talkback in Adelaide. And this all this journalism and radio came to a head when I was on air in Adelaide when 911 happened. I was in the newsroom at mix one Oh 2.3 And five DN. When that existed, there was fog of war or whatever 5g and morphed into. And I was the one who broke the news that that would happen. And then the news director caught everyone in. And our job for the next week was to find every link we could between 911 and South Australian Adelaide to keep people on edge and glued to their radios. And I just said nah, nah, I have a higher bar for journalism. The fourth estate I think It's one of the most crucial things on this planet. And Its job is to be the guard dog of, of truth, you know, keep the lies out. And within a week I quit. And a person that I knew, said, look, I've got a marketing company. And because I also did photography needed to start with that and some writing, and I switched over to marketing where I was for 19 odd years, and then started talking about marketing after that, do you? Please tell me to shorten my answers? Okay, that's a that's a that was actually very concise answer. That was really good. And honestly, talk as much as you like, this is your this is your show, stave. Take away, you know, where you want to. It's interesting, you talk there about that. It was almost like they were they were turning the experience of 911 into like fodder, though. It was, you know, to try and diminish it in some way just to keep it entertaining and keep people listening. Does that I'm kind of looking for a link here. You talking about things? Like journalism is like the gatekeeper. Do you find these days, the amount of misinformation and disinformation and that sort of beating things up? And clickbait? Was that sort of, I guess, the start of that kind of thing? What look, I think that I had the pleasure of interviewing Peter gresty. Late last year, he's an Australian journalist who was wrongly imprisoned on trumped up charges in Egypt and was in jail for 400 days. And may I, I can't believe he agreed to be on the show. And we had a good deep warts and all chat about journalism, that and look, here's my position. That was horrible. We were still I think, the Gulf War period, or the 80s, when news started moving towards the 24 hour news cycle, which at the time, I would tell anyone who would listen that this is wrong. When you increase the volume of news you need, you have to reach lower into the barrel to fill it. And that's not good. And there's so there's that. And of course, there's a thing which the BBC has tried to stamp out recently called false equivalency, where if you've got, say, a scientist being interviewed about something, and there's someone who just has this random idea, yeah, false equivalency means you give 50% of time to the scientist and 50% of time to someone who's got no evidence to back up what they say. And so they have luckily moved to follow, I think Bertrand Russell, great English philosopher from the early 20th century, who said, you defer to an expert when they're talking about their field of expertise, but not if they veer from that. And so that sort of mixed up into I believe, we have this inclination this day and age to think we know everything. And so if something an expert is saying doesn't jive with how we see the world, we just dismiss them and not honor, the 1000 or 10,000 hours they've spent, like going through in depth. And here's the thing, there's a wonderful thing that since I discovered it early in sort of mid 2000s, this thing called the Dunning Kruger effect. It's helped me have a compass and the Dunning Kruger effect, in short, says, This was based on research over many years. When you know little about a subject, you instantly think you're an instant expert. You have no qualms. Do you have confidence to go forth? When you are actually a deep expert? They're the people who say, Well, it depends. And they understand nuance, and they know there's more to know, which works against the authority sometimes of the experts, because if they're being honest, I'd say this is within a certain probability what we think which allows others to nibble at them. Yeah, that's on one side. But there's another thing with journalism today that that I hear people say, oh, there's a conspiracy in journalism, to do things on purpose to us. And I am not a conspiracy. I'm not wired for conspiracy part. Because trying to organize people doing something together in the daylight is hard enough and never works. To think people can do it clandestine ly. So I don't think there's any grand plan in using anything to do with me. But what I do think is the numbers because Google and Facebook have robbed journalism, institutions of all their income from classified ads. They don't have the same resources, they got less people. And the only way they can survive is to, as you said, earlier, Allison, get the clickbait. So they've got to sex up their stories. And sadly, the algorithms that Facebook and YouTube use, put engagement above everything else. And the engagement that gets the most attention is typically anger and hatred. And so we've trapped ourselves into a corner, where the stomach that a proper editor has to allow a journalist to go deep and follow something through is shortchanged. Because if they allow that, and they don't have the clickbait stuff going, they don't have income to be here tomorrow. So it's messy. And there are good people out there in journalism, but the system is off funding is broken. And I would love as I would love the model that France uses to come into play where the government actually funds a certain percentage of journalists, they don't have any editorial control. But they say to the organization here, you've got these people, let them do good journalism. And I think that would make me much warmer towards the Fourth Estate these days, because it would give it breathing space to deliver stuff that sometimes I don't like, I don't care, I have to change my opinion, when new facts come to the table to be challenged. And you think about things a different way. That one sort of unwound a bit. But it isn't black and white. To me. It is flawed. It's a human enterprise. And clickbait layout just doesn't help. Sorry, I'll just finish on this one. I did an interview with Natalia boo Jenko, a couple of weeks ago, she's a Ukrainian woman who has been living in Adelaide for many years. And we did a deep dive on what's happening in Ukraine, because she's got 10 cousins still living there. And she just the absolute horror, of actual genocide that's been meted out by Russia is not enough at all at once, to get the Rupert Murdoch type organizations to continue working hard to make us and keep us interested. And so you get a celebrity who throws her top off, and that will take all the focus, because that's fine. And that gets the clicks or Tommy Lee, you know, he'll expose himself. And so that gets all the oxygen. And there are people, little kids, that the one point something million Ukrainians have been pushed to the far east of Russia, separated, it's just horrible. It really is bleak. But we don't have the appetite because they need the clickbait. And anyway, so I hope one day, and there are avenues where it is restoring itself. But yeah, it's bleak. But it's not all out to get us. That's the thing. It's just, it's just human. It's a human enterprise. Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned Ukraine, because I know, like I listened to a lot of ABC and BBC Radio. And because the BBC World Service is, you know, the 24 Hour News Service. So I often leave that on while I'm asleep, you know, and then I'll wake up in the middle of the night, and I'll be like, Oh, what are they talking about? And so you do get the updates on Ukraine, but you have to almost look for, you know, it's not there. It's not the front page. It's not the first thing that comes up on the the news websites, which is it's disgraceful because the like you said, there is so much horror going on over there. And it's like, we've just blinded ourselves to have gone Oh, yeah, that happened. What was that February our year. Now, that's not happening now. You know. And there's a few people that I follow on Instagram who are constantly sharing updates and saying, This is still happening, you know, it's, we cannot forget about it, you know, we cannot just let it go and just makes me so uncomfortable that we are not, you know, banging the doors down and saying, This has to stop. This has to change because we've just, you know, Tommy Lee does his thing and we'll go oh, let's get distracted by that. You know, it's it's appalling. It's horrible. And the thing that wraps all this up is the world The Unbearable Lightness of Being, which is the title of a magnificent book by Vaclav Havel. And it's amazing movie. I'm going to watch it with friends. Again recent, soon in a couple of weeks, and that title, The Unbearable Lightness of Being, I would be happy to sit around a party a dinner table and just discuss that and teased apart for hours because our existence on this planet is light. And that lightness is unbearable, because we've got the heaviness of what's happening in Russia. And we have the light fun bits of someone doing something funny that we whom whom we know. And that's all part of it I, in the interview with Natalia, I made the comment that a little while back a few years ago, now I sort of fainted at night and fell down hit my head and discovered later that was a couple of centimeters either way, I wouldn't be here talking. And when I had to go to hospital for observation, when I came out, having been contemplating my mortal, brevity, nothing had changed in the planet, everything kept moving the buses were still gearing and you go, Ah, okay. And look, and that's how it has to be the world has to keep grinding on. And it is it is messy, are your guest recently, Lisa Sugarman, she made a point about hate, it's messy, and we just have to deal with that. So it is, and so we can't flagellate ourselves for not staying true to course, with following Ukraine. But the role of the prized role of an editor whose job has been to say, this is important, this is important, is a prized role. And I think it's an important role to play in our society. And when that is down, played, because our we need to get some sugar hits of, you know, clicks and likes, yeah, nobody is served by that. It is balanced. We can't be too hard on ourselves. But we have to try if we care about being part of this human tapestry. That's it, isn't it? It's got you've got to continue to try. And I mean, I understand you've got to have light and shade. You can't all be doom and gloom. But we can't let important things be out of our mind for too long. I don't think any but that's right, we have to survive. And we've got, you know, that thing they say on planes, where if the cabin pressure drops, put your mask on first and then help others. If we let out our oxygen be too sucked out. By being depressed by all these things over which we have little control, then we can't really help anyone. So it is a messy enterprise. That's a good analogy. That's a good way of looking at it. And that's actually a few of my mom's on the show have used that as an analogy for their own self care of looking after themselves. And then that enables them to look after their children. Because if you're if you're down, everyone is you know, you can't pour from an empty cup. Yes, I had the chance of meeting Jane Goodall through that late show many years ago. Yeah. And she's the lady who lived with apes, and we're very strident level headed conservationist. And the question I put to her was, we feel so helpless with these things, what do we do, and she said, You have to forget the big picture sometimes, and focus on what you can do on your square inch of the world and do something there, then you'll feel empowered again. And from there, as Paul Kelly sang from little things, big things grow. And that's why I was at the Ukrainian club the night before we recorded this, just to meet some of the people and support them have dinner there and pay them. And they had a room where people had donated clothes to look after some Ukrainian refugees who had come across my job quietly, the government's now stopped that there is no more invitation for Ukrainian refugees. And Natalia made the point to the trouble is, if the politicians aren't being needled by the populace, to keep it up, they can shut it down. And if the journalists aren't interested enough to keep the heat on, then the population isn't. And then the government's left off the hook. Yeah. And so it's a little sad circle there. However, there was a little thing we could do, and to be there and to support them. And that's what we could do because my family and I all went and we listened against an Italian episode in the car. We were all choking with tears at points because it is so real and heavy, but we then got to meet them and have fun and and, and engage and that's the Jane Goodall advice is very wise. So yeah, the message is we have to make our way through and look at it's not bad to look after ourselves on the way it's just getting the balance right, and we'll get it wrong. And then we correct ourselves. One last thing. Sorry. Go on. It's Allison. I love this. You are asking questions or opening up things. Seven Habits of Highly Effective People Stephen, have your mental plane. My dad had that book. I quote him all the time and I'm having a mental blank. It'll come to me in a moment. But there's a beautiful analogy that he uses, which is these huge Jumbos that fly from LA to Sydney are off course. According to him about 90 95% of the time they are off course. All that's happening it Stephen Covey, all that happens is our instruments. just nudge it back, and then nudge it back and then nudge it back. And he was saying, we have to be kind to ourselves in life, we will be off course often, but it's not a case for giving up. It's a case for just nudging back. nudging back, nudging back. Oh, I love that. Jeez, I could apply that to myself. Maybe we all can. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. I'm glad you kept on with that train of thought. Getting these little nuggets of gold All right, we're changing tack slightly. You are a father. Obviously. That's why I've got you here part of that reason. Can you share with us a little bit about your your children? Yes, I've got two daughters, AJ and Caitlin. And they're 14 and 12. AJC oldest, what can I say? They, they have, if there was a Venn diagram, between the two of them, they'd be a good bit of stuff they have in common. They both are very grounded and have a strong care ethos for others. And both can have a both are very clear. When they've decided what they want to do, they can be quite focused on that. And then you look at the bits of the Venn diagram where they're different. And AJ is this is like she should have been born in a tent. In the savanna, she is an outdoors person who loves horse riding, getting filthy, pushing herself to limit running, you know, all that sort of outdoor stuff. She talks more costly than the others, which is a little bit from her. Like grin. I think she got a lot of that from she's a little dynamo, she's short. So keep these in terms like little and doesn't give up. And just, we were at a friend's house recently at a place called bugle heart in South Australia, which is up near Renmark. Very for anyone who wants to check on a map, just inland a bit. And they have a horse, retired old racehorse big like huge horse and see that AJ hop on. And Yvette was saying, I've never seen that horse just it bought like it just it was able to trust AJ, AJ trusted it. And she said it was just magic. It was absolutely beautiful to see this pint sized little controlling this horse was just fantastic. And it was lovely. And and the other one Caitlin is more towards the reflective. She does gaming lots of talking with other people around games. And on that express, she does she's in the choir, she does drama. And she's sort of skewed that way. So they're just, you know, it's just, I love them to bits. I had the privilege recently we went to stay on a houseboat for a few days. Unfortunately, my wife couldn't make it because she was an acting head in the department she works for so and just go ahead that thrust upon us. I just needed to stay back. But it turned out to be you know, silver lining, because I got to spend just quiet downtime with them. And the thing I will remember one of the things I remember the most was the drive it was a three hour drive. And the iPhone is connected to the car sound system. And I handed it to Caitlin. I said you're the DJ. All three of us will go around and play a song but tell us why And so that whole journey I was amazed I've got great music tastes I mean, either bad for kids because I liked it or I'm just an odd but but that we all three of us said that was amazing. We learned so much. We got to hear songs we wouldn't have heard otherwise. And it was just the time just flew. Yeah, just lots of little things like that just happened throughout yeah I've got so many things, there's so many directions I could take you there after that, as I love these when I ask a question. And then you'd be the same to any journalist background like with people tell you things. And then like I'm scribbling down notes. Like, I want to know about that. I wonder about that. I love it. Be careful what you wish for. But you've already you've already got a taste. Right? We can make Part One and Part Two is gonna be like, you know, continuation challenge met. Oh, I love it. So. Okay, where will I go first? So the gills now I'm forgive me. I can't remember it might have been a J. In your recordings of your Adelaide Show podcast, here is AJ that she has a little speaking part. They both do. They both are doing okay. So Caitlin does the acknowledgement of country for beginning. But both AJ and Caitlin share the sign off at the end and AJ. So binary goes both ways. I'm gonna be random in just crazy. They call them my voiceover angels. So what made you want to include the girls in? Did they want to be a part of it? Or was it something you thought? That would be nice to have the mean? Well, they prove it's, it's, it's probably to know there'll be three strands to this. So yes, I desperately wanted them to be part of this thing. Because I was very mindful, especially when I started the Adelaide show back in 2013. That it is about 15 hours per episode. That goes into prepping it, recording it, editing it, and then promoting it. And that was a big chunk of dead time sort of taken out of the equation of the week. So none of this could have happened if Nadia, my wife hadn't understood it was you know, had to be to some degree, keep me sane. So I desperately wanted them to be part of it was one thing. Because there were a couple of times I remember when I was growing up when dad was a builder in the first part of his career, hopping in, in the school holidays, hopping into his sort of bizarre Bongo van kind of thing he had. And it felt great to be driving off to work. And I thought this is as close as it gets for providing that sort of thing. They were curious, they'd seen the mic, they played with the microphones a bit. It's probably a bit strong at that age to say they desperately want to be part of it. There was a playfulness about it. And there was another podcast I listened to. I should be careful to recommend it but it's called oh my goodness, mental blank. Here we go. It is very bad wizards. Language warning on that one. It's a philosopher and a psychologist. They're both tenured professors. They are cool dudes. But you know, that comes warts and all. And they one of his one of them is their daughter's does the opening. And she says this podcast is produced by my dad, and philosopher Baba. And they use language that I'm not allowed to say, and all that sort of stuff. And I just loved that. That intertwinement with the family connection, because they're not just these dudes. They're dudes who are situated within family systems. So this is an expression. I think it lends to some degree authenticity. On the other degree. Yeah, maybe I'm like those parents who are living vicariously through their kids as well. So it is it is how it is. I love it. I love it. Hearing it every time it makes me stop. I can't stop it until they finish talking. Yeah. Oh, that's lovely. That's so nice. I mean, I can relate to that. I've put Digby in my, just as it's halfway through the episode. I've got him going, you're listening to that being mum with my mom, Alison Newman. It's like, I couldn't have anyone else do it. I've got a friend of mine recorded it for me. She's like, got a beautiful voice really good. VoiceOver. And in the end, I thought, no offense, Danny. Sorry. It has to be Digby, because he's my child, you know, and I'm talking about monster. But I think you're right, it gives it gives this realism, it makes people accessible. And they're not just a voice that you hear, you know, through your headphones or in the car or whatever. They're an actual real person, you can feel the connections that they have. And yeah, that authenticity really comes through. And it gives you a taste into the sort of person they are, you know, that they're, I mean, obviously professional, but not professional enough to ignore the fact that they do have a life outside of what they're doing. I guess, if that's a way of Does that make sense? Yeah, look, I think you've touched on a really important thing there with the podcast, genre. Same with radio, but podcast is a bit different. Because we podcast, a listener has to seek it out. And actively say I want to listen to you. And you are right in their ears, Allison, every single episode. So there is an intimacy that builds from that. And the fact that you're also have your child I think slept it's like imagine if you've gone over to your place for dinner, they'll be there. And so you have got the adult time around the table. But there's also the meet and greet and the interruptions, you know, and that's all part of it. I've started doing that with my clients or talked about marketing, actually, instead of having end of year events, I am slowly it's going to take 50 years working through that, or groups of two or four to come to our makeshift cinema at home, I cook a meal. And then we all watch as a group, just a movie together. So we kept socialized with no talk of business allowed is wonderful. And it is that enmeshing of everything. It's, hey, this is life, you know, we're not these, because I think the big bad thing that happened with especially from what I can tell the sort of 50s 60s 70s and 80s, and probably even lingering with a bloke went off to this other professional world and was out there, and then had to come home and sort of like lower down to the mundane of family, which is a horrible dichotomy. I think we've moved beyond that. And I think it's taken a lot more gender balance or striving towards that. In a growing up, we're still not there. We're still miles away. But just the Yeah, you have to just accept that I can't go today. It's a kid sports day, or it's happened to me last week, girls had gastro and had to be home. So, you know, you just and that's going to dent into things. And I think clients who won't acknowledge that are assholes who are not showing any human respect. And one of the tenets of talked about marketing is that business is personal. It's humans, working for serving other humans. That's the that's what happens. And that means we are part of systems and the family is a system that we're part of. Hmm, I loved how you got so passionate, then I could see your point of view. I love it. Now Good on you. That it's so important. I think that's so true. Like I think back to my dad's generation, like he had an AI what happened? Exactly, I wasn't there. But you sort of see the flow on effects of it. And there wouldn't there would have been a massive separation between the the father's work life, his home life, his social life, even you know, when I when I was a kid, my dad grew up in Colorado, which is a little town probably 40 minutes away. We're really tiny town. And they had a real old traditional pub where you had the saloon bar, you know, the front bar. Women and children were never allowed in the front bar. It was like this rule, unspoken rule, but it was very well followed. So we'd go to the pub for tea, Dad would disappear. We'd fall asleep on the chairs in the, you know, the restaurant, you know, that's what happened. And one of the first times I ever went into the front bar, and I caught myself and went, hang on, I'm in the front but like it was just this weird feeling. I'm not allowed in the front. But, you know, as an adult, I think it wouldn't have even been my grandmother's funeral. You know, it was that I recently and I was like, Oh my gosh, and you think in that one generation how much things have changed? And I think a lot of that you talk about the gender balance I think that's true that you know, men have recognized that that's probably not ideal for the family unit and I think women have stepped up a bit and gone Hang on, we're not gonna sit out there in the heat in the lounge with the kids though. Right? You know, we're a family unit. This is how we're going to be but yeah, that just reminded me of and that was just in my dad's you know, when I when I was growing up how deep those roots are that you still had that oh, yeah, right back where it sits in my sister's wearing the front god oh good day Listen, I want to pick up you said something Woody, I think you nailed it. When you said it's the separation of the two parts of their life. And that's an important word, as opposed to an amalgamation. You know that people talk about work life balance, we can't have that unless it is that warts and all holistic you who brings stories and fatigue and being energized to both ends based on what's happening. I work from home, primarily. And so my girls get to see me worn out stressed, excited, you know, the whole bit, which may be good or bad. Maybe there was a benefit of being shielded from that? No, I don't think so. I think they, I want them to have an appreciation that life as an adult, is, can be pretty intense. And resilience, which is a theme that comes up a lot on this podcast is going to be one of the most invaluable things you can have in your toolkit. How you teach it, I don't know, but partly watching the ebbs and flows and knowing that it ebbs and flows. So it does go up and go down. There's a lot more down that rabbit hole. And I'm gonna continue with this topic. And I love I love talking about important stuff and meaningful stuff. So yeah, I don't mind that we were just gonna keep going. When I was growing up, I never saw that there was a bad side to being a parent, I just thought parents did their thing. And everything was fine. And they looked after us and and then obviously, when I realized for myself that it's an absolute cheat show. I've been I don't know whether I've done it on purpose, or I've just allowed it to happen, that my children say everything, pretty much. I know my mum, she came from a background where they were very protected from things. So she brought that into our own lives of, you know, hiding things from us not sharing bad things from us with us just to sort of shield us. But I just I, to a degree, I pretty much my kids know everything that's going on with me. And I unlike you said I don't know if that's good or bad. But I just think it's a reality of life. I don't I don't want my kids to grow up with this idea that everything's rosy and happy and things never go wrong. And then they get into adulthood and have the experience that I did where they went, Oh Christ. What's all this? You know? Absolutely. I look i i think the beautiful thing is the beautifully painful thing is, there's no right or wrong that I'm aware of no one's written this ultimate guide. That answers his question properly. And it I say ebbs and flows. Again, one generation has one experience and go here. I want to keep that bit and lose that bit too. We'll try and steer it this direction. Yeah, and I remember some sociological sociologist, or anthropologist, one or two, talking about how you have this pendulum swing of attitudes that go back and forth from generation to generation. The generation emerging now is tending not to drink alcohol or smoke because they've seen how bad that is from the previous ones, and then the next ones might be other way. I find that so interesting. I guess the thing that gnaws at me with our open approach is, when are you ready for the full throttle front row seat of being an adult? as well. So there are still things that rightly or wrongly, try to shield? Yeah, yeah. So it's like training wheels a little bit. Interestingly, this we, we, before our daughters, we had a stillborn child, little boy. And we hadn't told the girls. And it just, ah, it came up somewhere. I think it was walleyes. Why in the Riverland, with the girls, because of a conversation piece that someone led with. And I found out that my eldest had been told because by Naughty I didn't know this because she was filling out some government form. And AJ being acquisitive, Snoop saw it and said, What's this? And other ones? Okay, and it was just accepted. And, you know, who knows? I think we could make, or I had certainly made out to be something that could be more life shattering to them than might otherwise have been, I was just going to wait, I was going to hide it forever. But I was just waiting till there was levels of different maturity to discuss it, because at the time it was, it was destructive. Like it's just horrible to experience firsthand as the parent or one of the parents. But it's different, I suppose, with distance, and it's abstract. And where did that come from? Or that came from? How much trying to get this right, it is a messy process. And because I did read a lot of books, when Parenthood was on the horizon for the first time, and I don't know how helpful they were. Because it's like, if I had to write down the instructions on how to pour a glass of water, that's warm. I think if I hand wrote every consideration, that took into account judging the temperature, making sure the glass itself isn't too cold, you know, angle, all these sorts of things. Yeah, it would actually be overwhelming when it's really simple. So books about parenting can make it seem more of a mountain than it is. It's still a mountain part. I think we kind of have to take our own pathway up there somehow, and hopefully reach out to people who try who have trodden the path before, when we ask. Yes, that's a very good point. Yes. Yeah, cuz that's so true. Like everyone's experience, everyone's parenting, how they were parented. Every child is different, you know, there is no book that's going to tell you how to raise your actual particular job. It's possible that some of the books, some of the things and some of the books helped, I just can't place it. It could well have echoed around the subconscious. But it is a moment. What was for me a moment of blind, anxiety, panic and excitement, the moment we walked out of hospital with AJR firstborn and putting her in the car, realizing that I'm now responsible for someone who has no way of defending themselves. That was the most nerve wracking drive ever. Where it really became real because you couldn't just tag team and nurse that was it baby. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. So you've mentioned your wife a couple of times, no idea what to say A good question. She works in a field, I understand very little of which is systems analysis. And so basically, when a organization wants to revisit how they all these different data systems all work together, she is an analyst who gets into the weeds with that. But she is one of these people who is the translator between the business and what the business needs, and the geeky nerdy texts of whom I count many within my friends circle into a language that they understand because it is chalk and cheese. And so people like Nadia, make things happen that actually match what the business needs, as opposed to going off down rabbit holes, which is my gift. That's like she translates between the two worlds. Yeah, that's basic. I think that's it in a nutshell. Yeah. There you go. Good on it. So you talked before about the thing you said was 15 hours to eat for an episode, which is actually interesting. It's made me think about how this how long this takes me. When you've sort of and you said she understands that this is something you need to do, this is like your outlet. This is important. Does she have things on her side that she has to do that? It's like her outlet? We talked about that? You know, putting on your mask first? That sort of stuff? Yep. Netball coaching. Yeah, she is the coach of both of my daughter's netball teams has been for five years or so. So and that means at all the games, running the practice sessions, thinking about strategy, you know, watching other games, to get inspiration. You know, just dealing with the bureaucracy within the education department sometimes when you are trying to do your best to volunteer. And you know, not necessarily always being having that lovely, gift respected having to jump through different hoops. Not I'm not talking at the Child Protection stuff. But that's really important. That's going to happen. But there is some ridiculous bureaucracy that happens from time to time. Anyway, that aside, that's her. Xe just thrives on that. And because she's been an Ebola herself, her mum was a netballer. She's from Tintin era, which is a little town in South Australia. So she grew up in the country. Netball really was part of life. Oh, yeah. And has instilled that and now. Definitely the oldest. I mean, I think that's helped keep the girls excited and fascinated. They're both moving up through for trials for club teams and state teams. And AJ has just progressed on our way to an Olympic squad thing. So wow, it's just I mean, very early days, like really tiny step forward. But yeah, that's pretty awesome. Yeah. It's certainly there any dreams you had of going to the Olympics? Exactly. Because I know people would look at me and think oh, wow, you're really wiry sort of athletic build Steve. Or the opposite? Yeah. So no. So I think that certainly gives her some grounding outside of the nine to five. Yeah, that's awesome. That's good. I want to talk about you've got two daughters. Do you ever feel daunted and nervous and concerned or I don't know if they the words but bringing up to girls in the world that we're in in the world that is changing and becoming? What do you thoughts about that? Many faceted. It makes you well. Okay. Wow, you know how to ask the question. On one hand, I think the growing up many layers of society are doing in embracing the actual positive business benefits of diversity in leadership teams and teams general. The more that works its way through the less one's gender or ethnicity should be used as an exclusion factor. It means that if there are bastions left, which I'm sure there are where it's blokes, they will continue dissolving so that my daughters aren't repelled by those arbitrary divisions. So part of me is hopeful on that front. And look, heaven forbid, I'm, I would expect, and I see there's a lot of, interestingly, did the sums of the day in my marketing more than 8000 business people have been in my various workshops, and therefore I've done mentoring with them over the time, I would say, close to 90% of those would be women, often solopreneurs, or running small businesses. So in some ways, I hope through hearing stories about my clients, that if the girls have an idea of something they want to do, they do it themselves, they don't have to go through a system beholden to other people's opinions. Because the market doesn't seem to be as discriminatory the market doesn't care if it's a product or service that they want they want. It's it's the bat covering within systemic HR systems and our blokes clubs and, and what have where we get stimulated in progress on that front. We've done our best to well, we have we've done our best to be encouraging, of blocking out blowing away any senses of limit. Yeah. I think and got to, the girls get to meet all different sorts of people they wouldn't otherwise, thankfully, through my podcast, got them to mean lots of different people was just, I think part of what can trap us apart from systemic things that are happening in the society, self limiting things which come from not seeing other role models. And so reading or meeting people who have forged different pathways just goes on, it means it's not even a thought that I can't do X. So from that side, that's one thing, then you've got the threat of violence. Out there, and that is disconcerting in many levels. Because I, I have become aware in recent years of how even I'm not really a masculine guy, I've never actually been in a fight. But I don't, and I know, there are times when my hackles are up, walking around late at night, going back to a car from a theater show, in some places, practice, not often it's very rare. But I've been awakened in some of the deeper conversations I've had in the last 10 years that as a female in this society, that's a privilege that I've got not to have to be on guard a lot more permanently, like really aware of it. And so I have to acknowledge I've got blinkers on and it's just the nature of the bloody chromosomes are as given and the society that has built up around me so I don't know what to make of that one thing that only give that gives me a little bit of hope that it might well this is the external stuff then you've got the internal with domestic violence too. But if we look at externally, when you actually do methodical reflection on data, we are living in the safest time ever in human history. Which goes Whoa, you met Oh, hang on, hang on a minute, but statistically it really is. It doesn't mean it's I've got full heartedly saying that. Yeah, let's go off we go abandoned. So lazy, but comparatively, it is it when you actually hear I think it was I think pinker is the researcher who's done this. But I've heard really deep analysis of this, it's and it makes sense. And it also is why our girls go off all over the shop with their bikes, walking, catching buses. Because I was told by my cognitive science mate who did by survey Fanta, who made it made me sit down and push my face into this data and say, Hey, Mr. Murdoch, and his people want to drum up all the fear. But let's be realistic, when you look at what the real risks are, it is minuscule. And so if you give into that, you're robbing them of experiences. So there's that side. And then there's the What about when they're in a relationship with someone and behind closed doors. And I, I don't know, what I do know is hopefully picking up on cues, if there is any sense of trouble. And by blooming large in the life circle of my daughters, so that any potential spouses and other family members and friends are very aware that this is a switched on engaged, family. And this you're not being dismissed, because that is the figures on domestic violence. And murder is it's like that Ukraine thing we talked about? Yeah. So I can't throw the first stone and say, Hey, everyone, we're all being bad. We're not reflecting on Ukraine, because I'm not reflecting on this every day as much as I should, either. And this is back, eternal, crazy, balancing act that will never be perfected. So yeah, that's a long wrap. I'm in balance, really optimistic and looking forward to them just chewing up this world. I think the world needs both of my daughters. They both have amazing gifts to bring in. And I'm hoping it's not just dad wonder that saying that I'm looking at these people as humans, compared to all the humans I've met, and there's some dead set incredible power these girls have for good that they can extend apply to the world and to their their lives. So I am glass half full, despite all of that, but I'm just letting you know that I'm aware of the balls in that glass. Talk to me about the Adelaide Show podcast for people who haven't heard it. It's not about the Adelaide show. Just let's put that out there. First. It's not about the actual Adelaide show. It's a show about Adelaide. The Adelaide show is where he puts South Australian passion on center stage. So it because I'm a South Ozzy and from Adelaide. There's a couple of things. First of all, in 2013, it began well, there's a really bizarre story about how it began, which actually it was close to your part of the world, Allison. And I think look, I think it I think it's worth to sharing it briefly because it does give an insight into the seemingly unquenchable energy and drive that I've got for it. It was 2013. And I was at Chardonnay launch down in southeast South Australia, away from home again, running workshops. And just the so much stress was crushing me. I was I would have been happy to step off the planet. And were it not for having a three year old, a five year old and a partner. And I thought something's got to give here. Something's got to change. I need an expression outside of work because I haven't heard heritage my dad's workaholism. And so I do work 15 hours a day minimum. Like there's rare that that's less than that. And that's bordering on seven days a week and I feel Life was just filling out cardboard. And a friend had said to me, which would you be interested in? We were both angry that all this Twitter stuff was happening. Say Adelaide is boring because Adelaide as an Australian batch of jokes is considered the boring town, along with Canberra there, the two of them get there. And I had this realization, I said, Ah, Colin, we should do this. This is what I want to read, tap into my radio past and do something. And so with Colin long and Brett mountain, we created a podcast called another boring Thursday night in Adelaide. Because we wanted to meet this head on and stare down anyone who said Adelaide is boring. And I grew up as a band called red gum. And they had song called one more boring Thursday night in Adelaide, a tongue in cheek. Funny song. And so I know John Schuhmann. He's been on my podcast, he's a great bloke. And I said, Look, could we use the opening 30 seconds of that song as our theme song? And he said, Look, I'd love you to but I don't own the rights anymore. talk to these people in Sydney. And they said soy came $1,500 per year. Well, there's no way Nadia is going to I mean, she's lovely. But Brett is a singer songwriter. So he ran our own tunes on our own theme song. And so we started three guys. And at that point, it wasn't an interview focused program. It was it was actually a lot of fun. We would talk about different bits of Adelaide and South Australia. And we also had a thing called the the Adelaide visa segment, in which I would bring three samples of tweets in which people had used the word boring and Adelaide in a tweet. And we would sit in session as a visa counsel and discuss the pros and cons. And either they get away with it. They're making a good point, in which case combined with big stamping, they get a visa. And if they are not, we cancel their visa. And then we tweak this to people. And we would say you you have had your Adelaide visa rejected. Anyway, we had really one guy, tweet back say I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And I love Adela. And he was actually the best right he was the head of the the Adelaide United Soccer fan club. And so what in our in our judgment. We had cited that saying you have a higher responsibility. Good luck getting in next time you travel interstate to see the team good luck getting back into South Australia. He was so apologetic. We then reversed that gave him his visa back. And so there's this bit. We created a bit of Hullabaloo, we got a little bit of media coverage about what we were doing. And and then back by episode 80. We did every week. In fact, the first five years of the podcast was weekly and did not miss a single week. By week 80. We just started to discuss we dealt with that. There wasn't much left of people saying Adelaide was boring. And we've moved towards more interview format. And we there is an opening coming up and the PR person said we'd love to invite you but the clients nervous about having another boring one another boring, the boring thing they didn't, you know, we've outgrown that. Let's call ourselves the Adelaide show, and rejiggered so now we're not trying to react against something negative, we're going full bore positive. Yeah. And so we've had that in our first guest was Paul Gordon, who's a social media lawyer. And the whole interview was about right. If I was part of the Royal Adelaide show, could I sue us for calling ourselves the Adelaide Show podcast? And so we had the whole legal discussion, in which he said there were no grounds so that we could go forward. And if any, if they made any moves against us, we could say well listen to episode 80. And it will save us all the legal fees. And we then ended up doing we got invited we got clutched to their bosom, we got invited into their world. And we had some amazing interviews with the Adelaide. So the Royal Adelaide show. And in fact, the river land trip was as a direct result of that the former president had invited us up to do a special bond and we went back we caught up with him while we were there. So it's just as long story short since then, would apisto episode at this time 357 And I just Look for South Australians who are passionately engaged in some sort of endeavor. They don't have to have any celebrity standing. Few do, they just need to be wanting to talk about the thing they care about? Whether it's doing magic, whether it's their Ukrainian hometown, whether it's the history of rabbits in Australia, you know, science, health, acting, you know, drama movies, you know, you name it, we have talked about nuclear physics. You know, we've covered everything. And it's just for me, it is perpetually propelled by my curiosity. I've just, I've just got that DNA makeup that I'm always just, you know. So and I can relate to that. Exactly. Wonderful. Love it. So it's a eclectic. And on the homepage at the Adelaide show.com. Today, you we've got the current episode is on front, but also on the right hand side is, there's about 12 or 13 different categories, so people can click through to choose a clutch of programs of a topic they care about, and probably a really heartening thing is as we speak. We are currently the holder of silver for best interview podcast in Australia. Ah, congratulation. That was Thank you. It was awesome. It was lovely. And, and I like that because it's judged by my it by peers, by professionals in the media, it's not just a popularity show. And because I think it's lovely, the I love the dynamic of an interview environment, whether it's at a dinner party or in a studio, wherever around the table. There's something about the asking questions, and then the listening to answers, and then picking up on something from that answer to ask another question. And then shifting topic, that I just love that and we don't get much of a chance to do that in the short bites we get in the rush of life, and certainly, in the mainstream media shows they've got 10 seconds is considered a long answer. And you never get to depth. Yes, yes. Whereas at least with my answers, you've got not only some depth, I hope, but also a cure for insomnia. If you're listening to this while your head is nestled on a pillow somewhere you do have a beautifully soothing voice. Diaper I look I so agree with that. And I feel like Australia used to have before the rise of this reality TV, we used to have really good quality what were they called? Ah, it's on the tip of my tongue but like not variety shows, but all those I mean, like shows were would be real people and they would have discussions and like Andrew Denton was is one of my favorite interviewers because he does that thing real asked his question. And like he said, wait for the answer. And then from that he'll find somebody else to talk about. And I love that and and Ray Martin gives me the absolute sheets because it's like literally reading off his little clipboard. This is my next question. No matter if the person just said something so groundbreaking It would change the world he just go. Right My next question is this like it never deviate from his plan? And I feel like yes, we've really lost and the time because everything has to be in short bites to keep people engaged. You know? I don't know we've we've lost that. I mean, the ABC still does a pretty good on shows like, like Australian story and things like that, where you delve into people. But that just that back and forth conversation and then maybe that's where podcasts are coming into their own. You know, maybe that's where things have changed a little bit, but I love conversation like i i saw I'm getting really warmed up now I'm shaking my fist. Go for it. I can see it. Oh, I I know there's a place for small talk because there's a lot of time in life necessarily, but I that it really irritates me. Like, I want to know about people I want to know what makes them tick and why they do what they do and the factors that influence them. And like, I don't know, I'm just indulging myself in this, this podcast world. And people listened to it and that's really nice, but I feel like it's like I love talking to people about proper stuff. Well, yes, that's how we craft craft meaning in life. Yeah. And I look there is a place for small talk because there is the that forms the little bonds between each other it sort of aligns ourselves but then to stay there is an impoverished experience whereas to use that to then propel deeper in Two topics will be great. I mean, my character Darren Hill next week is going to be the emcee some business awards. And they've have a networking period back 20 minutes. And he is going to give them some questions to start that networking. And they will be the most unexpected observed topics you could ever imagine. And my thinking there is we people clam up, because most of us, according to I think psychologists, who can tell us is actually worried about how we look at it dominates 95 plus percent of our attention. And so everyone's worried of what they look like, without realizing well, that means that no one's really worrying about what they look like, because everyone's worried about themselves. Yeah, they're to put the question forward in a networking event, people either bombastically say, hey, come and buy my thing. Or they sort of too nervous to do anything. But if they've been given permission by this stupidly crazy emcee to ask people, if you're a cat, you know, what kind of further would you prefer to have? And would you consider added I haven't even made I haven't been worked out yet. But it breaks the ice, because it's a little trick. I'm making them not look at each other, with everything being high stakes, but I'm saying, Hey, look over there. And while you're doing that, guess what? You're now in conversation? Yeah. And so yeah, that just breaks that ice. It's why little trick that I do with the Adelaide show. Mostly, not always, because sometimes I've got some pre recorded, it starts with the South Australian drink of the week. And what we have typically done when it's face to face, it's changed a bit the last couple of years. But typically, I asked the guest to bring a South Australian alcoholic beverage if they drink alcohol, yeah. To share, and so we drink that, how may I find out about why they chose this wine, and I do my bizarre wine tasting notes and all that sort of stuff. But what it's doing is it's that same trick, look over there. They're now not panicking about the interview. Plus the alcohols just lubricated things a little bit. Thank you very much. And I had a free drink. And there was a period there where there was this ongoing serial jealousy between guests, and they kept bringing more and more expensive bottles of wine until someone bought a Penfolds Grange. Fine, which is we're talking $650 A bottle, or even an Australian dollars. That's a lot for your American listeners. About $45 American but it was, you know, beautiful. It's and it was fun. And it's just that trick. I don't know how we got onto that. Now talking, yes, deep conversation. Sometimes it just takes that little bumper car to knock us out of being straight jacketed. And suddenly it's like, it's the pressures off. Yeah, that's it. We can play. Yeah. Yes. And that's when all the good things fly. All the good juicy stuff comes in. So you talked about D H there a little bit of share, how how did you get involved with comedy, and through the podcast. I was about throes to just before 2018. I entered the Australian Podcast Awards with Adelaide. So we went over for the awards. We didn't we were finalists for best news and current affairs podcast. But I got to meet Marie Morgan who ran the school of hard knocks, which was a comedy score. And a couple of months later, he said Steve, we're going to run a class in Adelaide, would you consider promoting it for us? And I said, What is this a stand up comedy course? Yeah, he said five nights. Glenn Nicholas will be the teacher now Glen Nicholas, many Australian listeners might remember on a fantastic so the ABC used to have called the big gig in the 90s which had the Doug Anthony all stars and all sorts of comedians. He had a character called pat a biscuit in which he dressed up as Patsy Bisco. Supposedly a a school kid at little children's Keep with a little Bongo. Bongo, yes, behind you behind you. Yes, he is hilarious. He was going to be the teacher. And so he said, the thing is you have four nights of working up and creating material. And on the fifth night, we have a performance that you invite friends and family, they pay tickets, I come along, and we put on a stand up so with a couple of other comedians as the main X. And I said, Look, what if you put me through it? And I will because it was about 600 bucks to do the course. And is, and I would cover it thinking, because I've always wanted to do it. It was the last bastion for me of pushing because I love talking. comedy was like, no safety net. And I thought our eldest asked, he'll say No, I said, Okay, you're on. So he called my bluff. Yeah. And I remember going to the first rehearsal. driving across town, you had to come with two minutes of Stand Up material, having never done it before. Glenn could get a bit of a feel for it. I could feel my pulse. In one of my eyebrows. As I was so nervous, the blood pressure was just shaking. So Mr. Hop in front of any crowd, all good was suddenly this ball of Wired, panic. Anyway, did it kind of got a laugh or two, and I'm not much and we're all just as bad as each other. And then Glenn just has the most masterful way of unpicking things and looking for their their strengths and suggesting this might not be an area forward, but this one. Anyway, long story short, did the opening night. It was hilarious, great fun, and got the bill, it was just nice to have it done, the thing I learned the most from it was structure. The key difference between someone who can make people laugh at the pub, and someone who's doing it professionally is the professional will make sure that the part of the punch line that delivers the punch is the final part of the sentence. So when we just tell a yarn around the pub will often deliver that, but there's a bit more of the sentence just to finish off. And we're in friendly company. So people sort of laugh, but it's so much more powerful when you go bang. And really apart from other stuff. That is the most fundamental thing that I've taught. So I did that. A few months later, they were going to do the course again in Melbourne, but filmed it for a TV show, which is now online. You can watch this on YouTube, it's called Is this thing on? And it's a six part reality TV show. Yes, the thing we hate daddy were different when you're in. Where they ran, Glenn was the teacher again. But they did a different structure was six days and nights. There were 10 of us. And they went through the course again. But each day there was a different comedian guest who was going to teach us something. So Eliot goblet is another person from the past. Jack Levis, his real name. He talked about short punch lines and being a bit absurd and also a number of different comedians. And that was fascinating to perform. At the end of that week, having been filmed every moment, there was a bit midway through ice working on material and I just had this moment of panic. All my confidence, shattered through the basement and disappeared. And I I went to see Glenn was doing a lunch break. I said Glenn Claver chat, and I said, Glenn, I can't do this. I have a fake. And I just remember it beautifully. And it was just he and I and he said I have directed huge names, actors around the country. Everyone experiences this. There's a little voice on your shoulder that's whispering in your ear and this one I want you to do turn your head to that voice and say to it back off. Back off. And he said because it's got no right to be there. So let's regroup. And sure enough it was just the most beautiful bond he and I had dear friends To this day, and when my shows I've done especially the professor, long sword shows, he was my director. And he just knows how to bring the gold to the surface. He sort of lay down a footpath. And he goes, Oh, there's a gold coin. There's a gold coin that any Wow. And so. So the comedy thing, that was how that happened. Yeah. And then that was just doing stand up. And then because in my marketing day work, I've done an MBA, I think MBAs have some value, but there's a lot of bank. They can be, they can be. And so the professor was developed as an outlet for this. Just poke fun at the whole MBA enterprise, because MBAs used to be a four year solid degree when they started that 100 years ago. And now you see them, hey, three month MBA, and it's just this shunting people through. So the professor took it all the way at the fringe a couple of years ago, and he had the lunchtime NBA, when you come for lunch, and leave with a degree. And, and it was quite hilarious. So So that's poking fun there. And Darren Hill is a new character who pokes fun at the ludicrous aspects of this whole social media, influencer phenomenon. He, he talks about, he's the one who stands behind to make the social media stars. In fact, he's given birth to more social influence social media influences, then Kris Jenner. And so, you know, he's, he's right there. And just takes that to that extreme. Yeah, yeah, he's really broad, and AKA, whereas the professor is much more, much more reflective, and sort of higher English. Yeah. I don't sure if I fully answered the question, but I can't remember what it was, it was about what prompted them. And that's how I got to these characters, how you got into quarantine, because I've got material from both of those strands of my marketing work. And I can poke them out in different directions, and have fun with them at the professor has just delivered. Its online now a 15 Min, I think it's a 13 minute MBA meditation that you can listen to, and He will guide you through a meditation. And it all started because I am actually doing a meditation course with Sam Harris at the moment, which is amazing. 10 minutes every day. And he starts off and then there's quiet. And then he comes on. And so with the professor, I just wanted I just had this idea to I want you to focus very closely and read something from Philip Kotler is marketing book. And then there's silence. And then there's little and he pretends that no one's heard this. And then he gives him something else. And then this little rattle of his tea cup because he doesn't quite get it. And then he just is. I just wanted to get that out of my system. Yeah. Because he's a Daughtery. He's like a Mr. Magoo. He, and there's quite this thing where Tuesday nights I have the faculty meeting in the school hot tub, and they're all nude. And it was bonding. And so he's just lives in. I guess I live in fantasy worlds. When I get into those characters. They're both on LinkedIn as you can follow these people on LinkedIn. I'm laughing like I love that Sebastian long sought on LinkedIn keeps getting these LinkedIn messages saying, hey, there's a professor job open at Flinders University, and very tempted to apply for one at some point. Geez, that is brilliant. That is that's a bit of Lera can mischief awesome. Yes, my goal was get exposed to all of this coming back to you yells, yes. Identity about how sorry, I'm gonna just have to go ask my three rowdy people out there who are playing table tennis just to keep it down. Sorry, Steve. is actually five of them out there. My oldest son's got two friends over. That's why it's so damn loud out there. All right, good. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. I'm here all day. Listen, is it going hang on a moment? Really? All right. We've got so much time Fitzy isn't that the good thing about podcasts? You can press pause, and you can come back to it later. You know? Exactly. I love that. Because someone told me one time I had this really long episode. And someone told me I should make like to cut it into two. And I said, No, but that's up to people, like everyone's listening to this in a different environment, they might want to listen to it for that long. Well, they might want to come back to it later. So it's not up to me to decide for people. I just do a benevolent, benevolent dictator, a benevolent podcast, I haven't been able to. All right, Steve, that didn't have children? How did you your view of yourself? Or how you saw yourself, change or not change might not have I don't know, when you became a father, did anything change in my self identity, pre and post children? Look, it surely did. Subterranean leave, if I can just make up an adverb on the fly. Because I wasn't necessarily convinced of the parent enterprise as something, I kind of knew I had a societal and social responsibility to do this. Because I am prone to slipping into where evolutionary thinking from time to time, and understanding that, ultimately, I'm here, because the genes within me want and need to replicate to maintain their march of existence. And so I sort of have to go along the way. I mean, you can go way too far and be very reductionist in understanding life. But I'm aware of that that we need. Well, I need probably a bit strong, but yeah, that is the way of things. And it is actually noted. And I know, I knew that. It was, for me. A profound source of me, it gave meaning to my life, to be doing my tag team bit form the genes within me, which sounds very cold and like a James Bond villain. But there was that role, but I wasn't ready. I didn't feel ready. I didn't feel like a parent. Because parents are these different types of people who kind of have their shit together. And they eat they run things. And parents. They know what to do. And they just do stuff. So I wasn't there. And so it was late. I was late. I'm one of them. Let me just quickly do the I reckon I was close to 40. or there abouts. When I ventured into parenthood. I suppose we could say that given there's a 10 year age difference between Nadia and me. Nadia was still in what might be considered the Goldilocks zone, age wise for women. So this is dodging the question. No, I'm I'm trying to enter the question and finding the right entrance point. I just wasn't ready. And I didn't think I could. But at the same time, that there's a thing inside me that happens whenever I go to run a new workshop. So even the workshop you would have seen me do or any performance, you get to a point we say well, nothing can stop now we have to step out on that stage and just do it. And that was the way with which I approached parenthood. We just had to step on this way. So we had the unfortunate first step, which was heart rending. I remember driving back from the hospital to get a few things to take back after the baby had been removed and placed aside the body. Just screaming in tears on the phone to a couple of dear friends who were just you know, God sends we rebuild our world and not is very pragmatic person. And so right we're getting back onto this. See parent material. And so in the lead up to age as birth. The naming thing probably drew me in. Okay, so I am a huge fan of Leonard Cohen. I am his biggest fam, I am obsessed by the man. He was my absentee dad growing up. I had a dad but because I'd moved out of home very early, driving the highways late at night, his songs and concepts would be telling me stories. And he was my company. And I love his poetry. And so I convinced Nadia that the when we knew we were going to have a girl, I said, can I go and choose all the female names Leonard Cohen's used in all his written works, songs and poems, and put them in a poll and asked the world to vote on what our daughter's name would be. And so she crazily said yes, so I did this. And back, then we're talking 2008, there was a thing called pole daddy, which is ironic. Yeah. And so we put this up, we had 1000 votes. And the one on top was Alexandria. And thankfully, it was Alexandria, then Suzanne, and then Heather. And anyway, so I, that was me, I think, trying to connect my world of the poet reflector. Being in meshed with the stuff of life, the messy, bloody DNA of life. So that hooked me in. And I remember one thing very clearly. Alexandra was born, Nadia was taken to a room to sort of recover. And I was taken back into the room and there was AJ, in a little cot, wrapped up in that blanket the way they do so you get a good dose of claustrophobia right from the word go. And I was quietly getting my laptop out to do work. And just as it was about to open, I was struck by fear that the first thing AJ would hear was the Microsoft music when the computer opened, and I slammed the lid, I couldn't let that be the case. And so I reached into my bag and brought out the complete works of William Shakespeare as you do, as you do, and I went over by her, and I read a sonnet to her. So that making me that was the first thing that she heard. And then I opened up and I played Alexandra leaving, which is the Leonard Cohen song that she's named after. And they are the first two things apart from the doctors and nurses that she heard in her life. And I was just yeah, that was part of me getting in still very superficial, you know, haven't earned any dead points yet. I've earned my radio producer, journalist curator points. It was then being taken in and taught how to bathe AJ by the nurse, which was fear instilling this little thing just hardly bigger than your hand and you had to do this and it would squirm around and it had bones and flesh and stuff. And but then doing that more at home, changing nappies how quickly we forget what that was really like, but you just shut up and do it. And to be honest, although I tried to do my bits, I've been the workaholic and with Nadia having the chance to have some time off from work to to get she took the lead in that first year or two. And I my floor is that I think I am very aural based language based I needed a language connection to really deeply like so I was committed. Yeah, she i i love the fact that we let her was and was mainly me lobbying for this let her sleep in the bed between us even though all the books Oh, no, no, no, I'm not gonna smother my child I loved the only way I could feel less helpless is if I could be there as a human shield on one side while she slept, you know, so anything bad happen. And then once language happened, then it deepened and deepened and deepened. To the point that very early on from the dot for both of them. We would just, I started with rhyming. I wanted to have a lot of rhyming and I did a lot Have improvised theatre. So we're doing that, then we would make up songs all the time. And she got a little coffee, espresso machine toy one from someone, and we might put another coffee in the coffee machine, you know, and all that. And so as they became songs we sang. But even when Caitlin was later born, the same thing happened, we would go around the house, the three of us was making I would do the first songs get to the point where there's going to be a rhyming word. And they had to come up with that word. And they're the things I remember from that sort of level of connection. Still, I suppose. You could be saying there's still levels of superficiality there. I am the cook at home. So I to me, maybe it's selfish, but it's how I feel. I can be useful and needed. And I love it. It is there is some time I'm a slowest cook in the world. And there is every recipe is full of lies. When they say prep time. 20 minutes. Nothing is less than an hour and a half. I cannot rush. But, uh, maybe that's my little bit of downtime, but also the serving up. I remember when COVID first struck, that we do eat together as a family. I remember the girls, I was experimenting and pushing things out. And notice like, Oh, this is great dad. Really? This is a wow, it's like a little mini if anyone knows the castle, the movie The Castle, where the dad says, Jesus love. What's this? It's chicken. Oh, wow. You know? Yeah, it's a bit like that. Yeah, it's so satisfying. Yeah. So I felt part of it. So, you know, I'm there. I've done my I mean, it's, I can't claim to be fully over 50% of the job. But in meshed, I love them. You know, they're just love watching them grow as humans, and to be part of that it's a privilege to be in their little world. And then keep that balance. I can't be sucked in to be their friend, I wouldn't be friendly. But I am their dad. And then there's some beautiful communication that's happened since Sorry, I'll draw this to a close. But I remember back. If there was $1, there's a new drinking song for Alexis. Every time I say I'm sorry, this is going long. And it is this. She wrote on her because her birthday is the day before mine. So they sort of bonded that way. Show me a card. Think must have been a 13. So dead. I'm about to become a teenager. And there's going to be some changes happening in my body. And there are going to be some times when I am going to be hard to be around and hate you. But I want you to know that I love you deeply. Despite all of this. That is probably going to happen. As i Wow. That is a beaut human. Right. There may be some things happen right? Along the way. Yeah. To call a spade a spade like that, but in a gentle way. But just matter of fact, as well. Hey, you know, Saudis. Beautiful kids, you've got this lovely. Oh, good on. Yeah. And this thing like, I don't know. Sorry, I have a big stretch. You think about the stuff that you kids will remember. But I think about that a lot what my kids will remember from growing up. And you know, it's it's that stuff you talk about like this, the songs in the car in the three hour trip, everyone's sharing their songs, you know, these these things that you said a couple of times, you know, superficial but I think as humans like we have, we have to use something to get deeper. So there has to be something up here before we can get down there. So, you know, we don't we can't diminish that. What can be seen as superficial. Like you said before, about, you know, the small talk, it leads to something deeper, there's always that? I don't know, just seems to make sense. Yeah, you're right. And there were lots of fun times where AJ was reading her books and they had tippers and diggers and all the trap books, he loved them. So to get them to sleep. Sometimes when I was home with them, I'd pop them both in the car seats and we do driving around hunting for tippers and diggers and all this, why didn't lots of things I probably borrowed a bit too much oil from the planet in that pursuit, but it really suits them. And it was fun having those hands. I'm hoping that might pop up up in a memory somewhere. I'm the same, Alison, I wonder what will be remembered? Because it'll be the things that we probably don't expect. Yeah, yeah, it'll be, it'll be things that we saw as insignificant or Yes, flippant or whatever. There'll be the big things, because that's the stuff I remember, as a kid, like, Dad had these hid, I think he wanted to turn me into some sort of genius. And it kind of went the other way. He had these flash cards that had, like, big red sticker dots on them. And he would hold them up real quick, and get me to tell me, like estimate how many were on there. Right? Yes, actually, I do credit him for teaching how to estimate because I'm very good at estimating very quickly how many like there's a, I've won a lot of guests. How many things are in the jar? So maybe, oh, wow. But he, and I remember that. And I don't know, to him that he probably don't even remember that. But I really remember that they these big red dots coming at me, and they put it down. Good on him. Oh, my God, and I'm useless at math. I hate maths. Oh my god. Yeah, who knows, I just hope it's on the positive side of the ledger. That's the best you can hope for. There's something that makes them smile when I think of it. Although I did think to myself the other day that they'll have 357 plus episodes of the Adelaide sorry to listen to, if they want to, because they're a little bits of me that get, you know, exposed during those that they could piece together what he was like Oh, I love that. Do your daughters inspire you? In what you do? Do you find yourself sort of getting little sparks that you might not have got before? Because now you're a debt? Oh, wow. I would hope so. I would. I'm just trying. And that's really interesting, because I think like I want them to be proud of what I do. And there is a strong Geyser of intrinsic motivation that shooting out by desperate need to be on a microphone or at the front, which is a weakness and occur. I curse a blessing everything all wrapped into one. Because it's a back wood way of saying inspired. I want them to be like this I want. The people who have a greater chance of thriving in this world are the ones who can be comfortable stepping in front to lead a team. And it's good to be a good team person too. Don't get me wrong. But the world needs leaders and people who can help consolidate thinking and make it clear for others to be mapmakers as Seth Godin would say. And so in some ways by them seeing me do this. Here's an example early on. Andy and Terry, I think had the 13th floor Treehouse book and then the 26th floor treehouse. I think it's Andy and Terry and AJ as much as he loved these books love these books. Anyway, they were coming to Adelaide to launch a new book. And she, so I contacted their organizer and said, I've got a however old she was seven year old here, avid reader, who is part of me for the Adelaide Show podcast, and would like to interview them. And sure enough, I wangled it. And so we went to the Adelaide Oval where the big event was, and we got in first, we got to the secret room, and I held the microphone while she did her interview with them back and forth. And then we got taken in to where the launch was before anyone else right in the front row. And while were there, waiting, she was so excited and thrilled. I said, Darling, this is the fruit of me being comfortable enough to put my hand up and risk embarrassment by wanting to be that person that tells stories publicly or is asked questions and you've shown that to and This little thing we're having here, this little extra experience is the reward for that. You don't just get given this. And so who knows, maybe that might be something she remembers. But it's, if that makes sense. Yeah, it's, it's, I'd love to instill that in them that it should just be another thing you can do, as opposed to the research that says something like nine out of 10 people or even more at a funeral would rather be in the casket that actually speaking. There's no just talk entertainers tell a story think. Yeah, that reminds me, I said to my good that, like, it might surprise you. But I wasn't always this talkative? Oh, no, I used to be really, really nervous about talking to people and even lining up in shops, I used to be really nervous when I get to the front of the line, what I'd say and how I'd say it. And anyway, like, thank goodness got out of that. And I said to my son, we're going to see Constantino, the magician. Guy in May, Gambia in a few months, and he desperately wants to meet him. So I've done my thing and messaged and tried to contact him, whatever. So nothing's come over yet. But you know, that's what I do. I've never, I've got this thing that I'm never afraid to ask. Because if they say no, it's no skin off my nose. And you know, it's not I don't take anything personally. So beautiful. That took a lot of learning as well. But anyway, that's another story. So I said to him, when you're in the crowd, and they say, I need a volunteer, I said, always put your hand up, stand up and put your hand up. I said, because that's the only way you ever get chosen for things. As a kid, I'd think I really want to do that. But I'd sit there and hide and be scared, and no one's going to come up and go, Oh, you little Gilda that looks like you're scared. shitless. Let's get you on the stage. You know, so I've tried to teach my kids that if you want something, there is nothing wrong with saying that you want it and you can get it. You know? That's a very short way of I mean, obviously, there's a lot of hard work within certain things. But if you're in a situation where you want something, you stick your hand up and say I want this. Don't be like me when I was a kid. Yes, it's the it's the thing of ask. I wasn't knock on the door we opened asked and it will be given and somebody will seek and usually I find I don't often quote from scripture, because I've that's not part of my life anymore. But there are some profound things from the old writings that stick through. That's one of them. Unless you've asked, you'll never know. And see. And so that's that's a tough one ticket however, surprisingly tough. It shouldn't be. So I'm hoping Yeah. Yeah, but that thing you said earlier that quote about 95% of us so, uh, worried what everyone's thinking. Yes. You know, I remember when I first realized that, that that thing that you said afterwards, then that, that means none of us are worrying about each other, because we're all wearing about ourselves. Correct. And I had this moment of like, ah, oh, it was like this freeing thing, because I grew up as a performer on the stage being judged in a Stanford's. Right? So you put this kid who's got no confidence in anything and stick him on the stage and have people judge them and write things about them. That's a recipe for disaster, isn't it? So when I got out of that world, and realize that one person's opinion about me does not define my whole identity was life changing? It took a long time. But you know, it's given me all these ways of looking at things now that aren't defined by other people. Oh, I agree. It's when I do theater reviewing, I carry that responsibility, soberly, that people will read this. And there are some critics who make a name for themselves from being a servic and horrible. And that's not me, I will. I've got to honor the people who read my reviews or listen to them that if they buy a ticket based on what I've said that I can look them in the eye and things, but I tend to put it in the context that if you do like absurdist suspense fueled country music, then this is the show that you might like, whatever the context is, and then I share my thoughts within that lens, as opposed to judging it against Oklahoma. And there have been two occasions where I have contacted the organizers and say, and said, I would prefer not to write a review because anything I write I think will be harmful to your very younger, to your, your performers. And I think if we just left it as it was, it might be nicer, and they appreciated that fact. Because, you know, criticism Somebody have to learn to live with but it needs to be. I only feel I can do it because I trolled the boards for many years doing absurdist theater, I understand the the angst, the pain, the the price you pay for going out there. So I measure that. But the same time there are I mean, there's a, I've just turned down some tickets to a show that's coming up, because it's just going to make me vomit. I think it's just a cutesy approach to storytelling that I don't think we should be doing. And I just, I'd rather just not review it. That's very kind of you to think that way. You know, it's not. And I think a lot of the people that do judge people harshly and put out, you know, scathing things, it's, I think it says a lot about themselves personally, and a lot of egos involved in that, because it's more about what they're saying. And their words, rather than, like you said, putting things in context and giving an explanation. And, you know, you have to ensure if there is something that was a bit off, I will offer his little trick, oh, I have no one who hears this is going to be reviewed by me, but I'll say, intriguingly, it seems the directors gone for creating this kind of feeling. So I've, I have, I've turned what is the potential negative in and giving them the benefit of the doubt, so that I'm doing two things at once. They know, quietly, that I might have seen a little bit of a weakness here, but they haven't lost face. And the audience who read this potential audience will go are ik that's probably not the thing I want to see. So they'll get the message, but no one's lost face in it. So that's, and who knows, maybe that is post parenting. Steve, who has those sensibilities? That pre parenting Steve might not have? I don't know. But there is that key because we try not to just say that, Oh, this lovely, we try to be specific in things that we will praise, etc. Rather than just a blanket. thing, because I grew up being told by my mom or your top you should be this, you should be that and it we can it lowers the value, the potency of that phrase. Well, it's just never ending. Better than having someone on the other end of the spectrum though. Saying that I just got thinking, have you ever done any? I'm not telling you what to do. But I can imagine you doing some sort of skit where you're the you're the theater reviewer, and you're reviewing your children. Now to me, Oh, you've gotten out of bed a little bit early today. But that's okay. You know, like, you know what I feel like that's just flushed through my head. See, I love that. Because the other bit from the old scriptures that I quote often is that there is nothing new under the sun. Because there isn't really but there are new ways of slicing and dicing things. And often that comes from taking a duck out of water and putting it somewhere else. And that's great. To write a sort of review. Yeah, of the family day. So how does a theatre critic write in their diary each day? That's interesting. Yeah. I get the fish out of water. Yeah, not duck fish out of water because ducks do go out of water and they are quite comfortable. But yes, fish out of water. less so. That is, that is the thing about journalism that that I was taught from early aid, man bites dog. That's how you know a story is a story. Dog bites man. Who cares? The man but man bites dog. That's where there's a story. That's the unexpected. Yeah. And and I know that sexist language but it's from early 1900s that as I've used it in the original language I'm faced appreciate you putting that caveat of it can you share with us your your website? Where can everyone find you talked about marketing.com Is my marketing business. We are probably around the time this comes out. Launching a podcast called talking about marketing with my new business partner I'm David Olney, who's a, an amazing brain form Elektra, he's blind. He is just an all seeing, wise man. And we bounce off each other nicely. So we're going to share something which I hope is helpful. At the Adelaide show.com to the UNLV podcast app, look for the Adelaide show, you'll find us and talking about marketing soon, I also do some others and have fun. There's one called this medical life, which is a podcast I produced with Dr. Travis Brown, if you want have a chronic condition, and you'd love to dive deep into it, this is a podcast in which we go for one disease at a time. It's for doctors. But if you're the person with something like this, you get to go deep, and you hear how doctors talk to each other about this stuff, which is great. Yeah, that sounds fascinating. It's, it's, it's amazing. I'm just I'm just the the band who sews it together. Dr. Travis Brown is the brain. And our guests are amazing. I'm just there for the on the show, girl. So they're the main things, the characters, if you're on LinkedIn, I'd love you to follow them. Darren Hill. He's got a website, Darren hill.co. He's the social media whisperer. He's just ramping up. And then at at MBA school.com. Today you you'll find the MBA school of MBA credentials. That's where you have this wonderful free mindfulness meditation. 13 minutes of your life, you'll never get back. And he's he's quite fun there. I think they're the main things to share, at this point in time, really just done that your MBA school? Do you find that people think that that's real? If I had someone this week, ask what are the rates? What are the costs for attending your school? And I fessed up to that person or the person for whom I think, I think they're an overseas student. And I did want to lead them astray. If it was a local, I might have had more fun with them. But yes, I do. MBA news did a big story on us. When we had our MBA, lunchtime MBA that was a bit of fun. But Professor long sword chips into the occasional debate every now and then, his one mission in life is to make Philip Kotler who is one of the seminal lecturers and researchers in the realm of marketing that the textbook called Marketing is by Kotler at owl. And Professor long sword has kept nibbling at him, there's not been a bat yet even he's done a series of short videos, you know how you have food and wine pairings. He has book and textbook and wine pairings. So he paid marketing by Philip Kotler to the most atrocious South African wine you could imagine. And he said, The only reason that goes with this is because marketing is so dense and tiresome. It will put you asleep if you weren't drinking this horrible liquid from South Africa. That is a stringent and still nothing crickets. Oh, one days, one day, you gotta keep keep trying. That's his goal in the nicest possible way. Oh, good luck with that. Well, thank you so much for coming on stage. It's been an absolute pleasure. It's been my pleasure, chatting with you and picking your brain and hearing all the awesome things that you've got to share. It's been so great. Thank you. Look, thank you very much. And thank you for welcoming me into this podcast because it is very overwhelming when I look back at all the different amazing women you've had on to go, Oh, my goodness, I hope there's something useful, helpful, fun, at least diverting, hopefully something at least diversional is a new word doesn't even exist. Until now. Thank you first time you've heard it here. I'll take care and thank you. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you As someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

John Anderson Australian musician and composer S1 Ep08 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts To mark Father's Day here in the Southern Hemisphere I share 3 special episodes where I chat to 3 creative dads to get their take on things, how they continue to make music while being hands on dads. In this first episode I chat to singer, songwriter, producer and multi instrumentalist John Anderson. John is from Mt Gambier Sth Australia and is a father of one. We chat about balancing creating music with working full time and parenting, where he finds the time to record these days and how dads experience guilt. Listen to Johns various music incarnations - First Thrown , Trev and Alemjo Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ John's music used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from artists and creative mothers sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mum and continue to make art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. Today I released three special episodes to mark Father's Day here in the southern hemisphere. I chat to three dads to get their take on things and how they continue to create well being hands on debt. In this first episode, I chat to singer songwriter, producer and multi instrumentalist John Anderson. John is from Mount Gambier South Australia and is a father of one. We chat about balancing creating music with working full time. And being a dad, where he finds the time to record these days, and how dads experience guilt. I hope you enjoy. Welcome to the podcast. John, it's great to have you on this special episode. Thanks very much, Al. So I've got to tell you, everyone, first up Johnny's my brother in law. So some things we might say, might go over people's heads with that. So why don't you tell us about your music, how long you've been playing? How you got into it, all the different instruments that you play and that sort of stuff? Right? Well, I guess I started playing probably. I think back when I was maybe in year, seven or eight possibly. I had my oldest brother's acoustic guitar, I believe that he had left home when he moved out. And I was just basically playing sort of one string just intending thing. And just yeah, just moving my fingers along the fretboard and finding notes. I thought, oh, yeah, I could probably get into this. So yeah, I was mucking around with that. And he had a bass guitar, too, I believe, which I sort of tried to play as well, which was basically just a bigger version of a guitar. So I had a bit of a muck around with that. But yeah, that's, I suppose the very first music thing I ever really played was probably the guitar and up to this time still playing it, obviously. But yeah, and then I guess it was probably after that would have been a drum machine I think I got which was some kind of small little Yamaha thing that I'll look at did the job. But yeah, I was just just had like little electronic pads that I just had the drumsticks and I'll just be hitting on there and making little beats. So yeah, I guess that's my first introduction to drums. As the years went on, I think it was about year 10 I saved up and got my first electric guitar. And just basically self taught myself and which was very basic stuff at the time. Some of it still is to this day. Yeah, so I think get from there. It just grew and yeah, that's pretty much where it all began for me, I guess. Yeah. Yep. So you've never had any formal lessons and you never know. So and this would have been before the days of YouTube where you could actually watch someone teach us so you truly are self taught? Yes, yes. Yes. Now is probably as I got older and into the teens, I guess you'd have you know much over at a friend's house or something. And the thing at that period of time was obviously Nirvana tunes and but the thing I remember most would have been Smoke on the Water by deep purple which I think most I know a lot of rock or metal heads would know how to play that so so that was but that but back then that was what it was, it was just you either see music videos and sort of watch that evening you can't really see what they were if you got a really keen oil good or you could see what they're playing on the guitar but it was more more or less you know if you could read music you'd you'd be reading notes and whatnot, but for me it was just sitting around with friends and playing his horn you going on What have you done then I'll give that a go and they smoke on the water. High School in the 90s for you. Nirvana, Pearl Jam, what were the other things that you were listening to? influenced you back then. Back then I was a rap head and a metal head. So I more I think from recollection. Well, going back in time a bit, I suppose the first a lot of music was from my oldest brother who was into a lot of various stuff, it was off the top of my head, it was like violent femmes the cramps. I can't even remember some of the other bands, but there was just all lucky like midnight oil and just a real big range. And then my, my other brother, he was quite strong into rap music, so they'd be public enemy and NWA. Or there might have been a bit of Run DMC in there too, I believe. So there was a lot of rap music. So I had a lot of interesting sort of, I guess was like independent. I don't know what you'd call a lot of that stuff independent sort of rock, pop rock or you just really experimental stuff, but then there was the hip hop. So I was into that. And then probably early teens, I think one of my friends got me into sort of heavy metal so it was a pain Tierra I'm sure nothing other pains now pain tear. And I as it was funny because as a as a joke, there's there's a band Napalm Death, which are still alive to this day. But one of my friends actually had a tape of which one of his friends gave him it was. I mean, for people that don't know Napalm Death, there were like a grindcore band that back in the early days just played crazy, fast music that might even last five to 10 seconds. That's how long the songs were so. So we listen to that as more or less a joke within you'll listen to this crazy stuff. So But over time, I sort of started actually think this is pretty cool. Actually, he was going against the grain. It's not normal, a normal strong structure. And then I had some other friends that really got into it. And so that was interesting. But it was a more or less more pan tear and sort of those heavy bands back then. But also Yeah, the grunge scene. So say obviously Nirvana and Pearl Jam Soundgarden. All the good ones. Yeah, so it was there was a bit of a mixture there. But yeah, now the year, I was definitely part of the grunge listening crew so. So with your music, I know that you've done quite a lot of different genres, for you to get into these different sort of styles of music, because it just, you're influenced by what other people listening to what you heard, you never really had any sort of idea that you were going to play a particular kind of music, you would just open to any sort of influence, I suppose. Yeah, it was, I think, yeah, just whatever struck a chord. And I guess for the majority of my stuff, probably lies in the realm of sort of extreme or hardcore or something like that, which I've just always been drawn to that sort of abrasive style, I guess. And it's, yeah, I'm sort of, I guess there's an expansion lot. There's different elements to a lot of that music. But yeah, it's just, it's just what sort of grabbed me so you know, from playing sort of heavy, heavy rock. You know, it's, it's just got a, notice a certain feel to it, that I've that I've always been, I've always felt sort of connected to so I'll play that. And then yeah, obviously, there's more extreme stuff, like you might be death metal, or black metal or grindcore, and all that sort of that sort of stuff. And, and that's just, it's just this sort of slight sort of therapy in a way, I guess. But it's just something that I just found that I could see myself doing and then sort of went down that avenue and and then yeah, like obviously, as times gone along, there's been other sort of genres, as we call them. That might be a bit more sort of a bit more lighter, you know, not quite as heavy and like, for the last, maybe the last five to 10 years has been like I've got into a lot of instrumental rock metal bands and stuff that have a lot of layering which, probably to this day, I don't think I can create a song without lowering, lowering to hell. So but you In a lot of that's just like this sort of wall of sound that, that I'm drawn to with just sometimes it's probably a bit too busy but, but just hear like so many different instruments coming together as one and it just max this out and it just makes this terrific sound that just pricks the ears up and you get right into you're dead. Tell us about your little person, a little person. She's Ruby, she's turning five soon. And she at the moment is singing the house down. And from what my, my wife Emma, your sister said she's. And I think you've said this too, that she's got a very mature, powerful voice and I know it's powerful, that's for sure. Yeah, wow. Really, but, but even this morning, I think we were just chilling out lying on the bed and just had an hour, she just built it out this chain and just, you know, my ears almost exploded. But it was good. It was good. But yeah, she's just just so enthusiastic with singing and obviously being around Emma. And an M is teaching her you know, not I guess not forcing it, but just sort of giving a little hints along the way of how to project it and all that sort of stuff. And yeah, she's, she's, she loves so much that loss of musical for a really it's just everything could be just create everything could be broken down into a song really so. So she's now she loves singing and yes, she's just Just a happy little girl that goes around singing and loves loves being a kid, I suppose. So I know personally, Ruby's had access to instruments and like the keyboard and things like that, from a young age was that important for you that you wanted to share that love and that experience of music with her? Yeah, I think so. Because it's, it's a part of me and Emma's life, I guess it's so he's been pretty strong with this. So I thought, you know, without pushing it too much, but that, you know, rubes you know, would have you know, say like, I've got a like a little Yamaha keyboard that just gets around the house. And she's she's played that and you know, even like a little ukulele and but yeah, like without saying you know, you've just have a go at this play this just just sort of have it in front and see what happens. And yeah, like, over the years, he's played some tunes even one that I actually recorded think she's I could almost use that and like an intro for a song or something. But yeah, now she's, I think I think it's good. Even if parents aren't into music as much, I think if they can give kids that option to just try it. Because it's just such a awesome thing in my eyes anyway. To have music in your life, so yeah, and if kids get into it, they get into if they don't, they don't, but IRIB seems to be she seems to enjoy it. Definitely the singing part. So yeah, I think it's I think it's pretty important. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you've done a lot of writing and recording yourself over the years, has it been something that you've gone into? It's like, you find that you said it's so important in your life, it's something that you go to, to, you know, work through, you know, challenging times in your life, it's sort of the therapy like you, you use that word. So it's been there for you all reckon yet, I think it's always regardless if it's been a therapy, or just, you know, jumping in the room and recording something that's just, you know, for a vibe or a feeling you've got I think it's it's definitely a form of therapy and yeah, so sometimes it might be just jumping in there, and, and just seeing what I can do and other times, like, you know, really, you know, feel in some of the day and you just think, you know, sort of out and I'd like if it's if you haven't, you know, a bit of a bit of an ordinary day or something like that it's sometimes it's good just to just go in the room and and see what syrup pours out. And yeah, and if it works out, just hit record and see how it goes. And so, yeah, I'd say that some, not maybe probably maybe half and half a lot of it's got more out there, what would you call it more? There was more emotion probably put into it. And whereas others are just more of a sort of a creative work, but yeah, for sure. I think it's definitely a therapy. Which, definitely, sometimes with a heavy music, I think not that it's has to be evil or anything like that. But I think as aggression goes and letting out frustration that I think sometimes that can be good, especially if you've got yourself a drum kit doesn't have to be great. But jumping on the drumkit and thrashing the living heck out of it can be quite, quite good. Yeah, soothing, you know, you can just lash out and then just say, Ah, that's better. So, you know, the better if you've recorded it, yes. How do you go these days when, as a father, you work full time? How do you find the time to actually get in there? And like you said, if you just want to get something down, or you have an idea, like, how do you manage that you sort of in your day to day, I guess was you know, it's very tough. I think before before rubes came along, it was you know, you could you just basically had the freedom to at night. You like for instance, or remember, I could be in my recording room. And it could be a as you might be aware of this, it could be hours have passed, and Emma might knock on the door and come in and say Do you realize what the time is, and I'd be looking at my phone or something going on. So time just goes and it's to me, it's good. Because when you're being creative, I think you need that. You need that space and time. Even if you're even if you're not doing anything, which in some people's eyes might be just you're just bludgeoned to sing, you know, you know, just playing a tune on a guitar, but you're, you're constantly thinking and, you know, thinking of stuff, whereas now, since Ruby has come along, it's sort of almost like scheduled time, which don't get me wrong, you can still be creative, but it's it's like you've got this vise on. It's sort of like this, you've got this timeframe like, right, you know, I've got maybe an hour tonight to, to work on something. And you know, you could spend 55 minutes of that trying to work it out. And then you've got it. Ah, well, look, time's up. But yeah, I guess it's definitely, time has been a lot more restricted. But, but you can still make it work. It's just, it's just a bit bit harder to sort of relax and have that vast freedom that you used to have, but it's like, you can't just get there when the moment takes you. You can't just go oh, I'm gonna go do that. Yeah, well, there has to wait till seven o'clock tonight. Yeah, yeah. Hold that thought after bedtime. Yeah, she just like, how do you go then in the house now with rubes to like the sound like the noise out? How do you manage that? Like, is that hot? Well, I guess the majority of my recording that I do now is pretty much at night time. So really, when she's asleep? That's probably when I do the majority of it occasionally. I might do some in the say in the daytime afternoon, or whatever. And I'd have I'd have the door shut behind me and if I'm playing guitar or something, I'm constantly looking over my shoulder and I'll hear a knock or something and I'm thinking I've got five more seconds please just wait wait but then you know if I get interrupted you know, that's just life but it can be hard but do I think now know that I'm probably strictly a night recorder now so so yeah, things just have to wait. I mean, I can still play guitar or you can think of things during the day and you might you've got like a little recorder next to you can think of something not that I'm a singer but I'll try to sing something and have an idea and then I might put it to you to use later on, but yeah, it's just, it's definitely a nighttime thing for me now. So So we've seen obviously, with going back to the time restrictions, you're sort of, you know, if you're working what not, you can't be up all hours, like when you're in your younger days and things you can bounce back in the morning. So it's you still got to get your beauty sleep. So. So yeah, that takes takes a little bit of the hours out of the day, but you just got to work with what you got. So yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's all about negotiation. And when your time is not your own, it's like the end. Gotta get in there somewhere. So do you do collaborations with anyone at the moment? Yes, I've got an old friend though. I went to school with Steve, we've got a little music project called early LIDAR. It was a it was originally a three piece we had a our other friend Edie who he was missing in action for a lot of years. And he was a hard man to track down but but only the last three, I think last three years, we have been sort of messaging each other over messenger or text and saying we want to get back into it and, and interesting, like with COVID. And sort of traveling and whatnot. We worked out a a little system that he could record guitar parts and his vocals and he sends them to me through Dropbox. And then I put them onto my recording desk, and I programmed drums to order and mix it. And I haven't mastered it yet, but I'll get there one day, but mix it all up. And yeah, and we've made two albums since 2018. I think it was and you're in the process of doing a third one. So you were pretty pumped with that. So yeah, that's been a little bit of a project. But well, I suppose also there's a lamb Joe which you'd be familiar with. Other people about Allison and John LM Joe meditation, music and music relaxation and it's fantastic you did just everything and then Emma and I just rocked up and did some lady does over the nine it was a team effort team effort. So what instruments did you play on that just for the familiar that was only did guitar and keyboard for a couple of the songs I believe and I think that was was about it? I think there might have been some drum program now I can't really remember do not have layering in all layering is no reverb. Oh, I'm a junkie for reverb. I'm trying to cut back on my reverb these days actually. Yeah, you can't you'll be in trouble. But yeah, it was so that's that's what I did and then you ladies put your your lovely vocals to it and a bit of a flourish with the maybe the tambourine a little bit of percussion singing bowls to a blouse Yeah. That was a fantastic project which is about to turn six yes yes wow crazy Steve that you do your you collab with your album? Is a dad as well. Yes, yes. Yes. So he's facing those same challenges when when he's gonna get back to you and get it down. And he's so really apart from yourself and Emma when she's, you know, when she's got small times to do music. I don't know too many other people, personally that, you know, fathers others that doing music that Steve? Yeah, he's, he's a sort of a, I guess a fairly new dad too. But yeah, he's, he's definitely he's a, he's a boss. And he's so he works a lot of hours every week and just to find the time from working in family life, and then you went, he's got a moment, he'll jot something down and, you know, send it to me. And then you are not happy with that. I'll send you something maybe tomorrow night, depending on how the night goes. And that's what I normally say the interest will say to him, you know, the call, I'm gonna try to work on that tonight. But fingers crossed if we have a good night or a bad night. So we've rubes if she wants to go to bed or doesn't want to go to bed or something or, or something. crops up, but yeah, that's, that's, that's how he works too. And just finding the time and the heads just can be can be tricky. But you can do, you can just get the time in somewhere and make it happen. And sure might be you'd be more drawn out. But if you, you keep the fires going or you work, you'll get your end product somewhere down the lawn. So that's the thing, you've always got an intention that you want to you want to do what you're getting back to it, it's just that slotting anywhere so when you're doing that work for a living, how do you sort of come up with those songs? Pretty much improv. It's sort of, I guess, it's playing something quite mellow for a start. And it just, I guess, finding a train that's I guess, sort of resonates with relaxation, and all this, all those wonderful things that come with it, and then you're just finding the guitar on top of that, that fits in, I guess, with the most was what we call the root note, whatever you want to call it. And yeah, just I guess just saying what fits with what and then as you be aware of the songs, they almost seem like they're sort of two halves put together. So the first first is normally that you know, the same sort of change and then second half the songs completely might go completely somewhere different but but yeah, it's just all I guess, improv feel. And just see what comes out. And don't get me wrong. There's been a lot of scrap papers I'll be playing now. But now I'll get something that I think so not too bad and and record it picks it up and so you guys just keep keep building on it and seeing what what happens so you touched on the in John, that there's not too many other musicians in your circle that are parents. So have you sort of found it hard then to, I guess, have a role model or some sort of guide of how you're supposed to do this? How you fit this into your life and keep creating more you're such a hands on parent. Yeah, it's yeah, it's I suppose it's a tricky one because I can't I can't really Yeah, I haven't really rolled off anyone you know, apart from you might see some YouTube clips of say, Dave Grohl or something with his kids. And not that I'm comparing myself to grow here but but, you know, all these big musicians and you can watch a clip of them in the studio when their kids are coming in saying, Hey, I thought we're gonna go swimming or something. Daddy just got to do this guitar beat and then I'll be right there and like, now I can't really you haven't really got any anything to really base it on part from just my own experiences and just over time realizing what works for me and yeah, and then just just going with that and then obviously, as time goes on, and rose gets older, it'd be probably a bit easier because she's been more independent. And you know, it's, you might be on whatever more time to then expand on recording, but just the whole process, but for now, it's just chipping away at night time. On st. So I want to touch on the topic of identity. Obviously, I've been speaking to a lot of moms about this, but I wanted to delve into the debt side of things. You see, when I talk to moms, it's easy because they fail Oh, yeah, straightaway. Because it's like, a massive big deal today to be who you are doing whatever you like in the world. And then all of a sudden, you're a mom, it's like, you only exist for this child, like you physically exist for the child. But I guess, for a dad, who, I'm not being rude, you're being offensive and all that might take the second role now overloads for mothers of their mothers different, definitely different for the mothers and the fathers. Even the father does a lot. It's just, I suppose, you know, organically and physically and all that stuff. It's so much different for the mother. It's just just the way it is. But we my eyes anyway. But yeah, I think, yeah, I think for fathers, it does change, but nowhere near as much. As a mother, I don't think going through all that sort of identity, like of, you know, keeping your sort of individual identity. And sort of just trying to separate sort of that. motherhood, fatherhood to your individual, I think it's, it's, it can get lost in the waters can get a bit murky, but, but it's definitely very important to have those two separate, because, I mean, you just, you, you think you just run yourself silly and you end you lose that individual identity. And then I don't know, maybe a lot of the passion that you might have for music could sort of wither away a little bit. Because you just feel like that you've you've got to put family as a priority. And then this is so exhausting. And draining that you might, you might lose that identity a bit. And it's easy to just go there. One day, I'll get there. But I think if you can find the time to even if it's a little bit just to separate them and to keep that individuality is very cool. Another topic that I talked to the mums a lot on this show is about mum guilt, and I do it in the air quality is hashtag Mom, do you find as a dev that you've experienced anything like that? doing the things you want to do with to keep your because it is so important to you to keep doing it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'd have to say there is there is some some guilt sometimes like, say, for instance, if you know, I've talked to me about you know, like, spinning when allocating some time, in an afternoon or something, just to work on some music of something, and everything's perfectly fine. And that but, you know, being in the room, you know, I've got my headphones on playing guitar, I do I have that thing in the back of my head that's burning a bit saying or maybe I really should be out, there's, you know, it's the daytime, it should be with my family, what am I, you know, being a bit selfish being here. But then, you know, if you've got people around you that are, you know, being honest with you, and insane, you know, that's, that's, it's fine, what you're doing, you know, and I think you've got to realistically look at yourself outside of yourself and think, yeah, it's actually this isn't too bad. Like, um, you know, obviously, if you lock yourself away from everyone, you know, it might be a different story. But if you, you know, if you're only spending a bit of time here and there, and trying to you know, just keep that creative spark going, like, I think that's a good thing. You know, all parties have said it, go ahead and do it. And so, yeah, there is one live inside there isn't there is a little bit of guilt. But yeah, it's I think that's just a human human response, really. So. You'd have to be maybe crazy to think yeah, you're not. Yeah, you know, being guilt free, but yeah, just it's just a tribe and we'll we'll see We're talking before about when you're creating when you're in the room creating and you get the little knock on the door. Ruby's quite aware of what Dad's doing in there with his music. Big Daddy. Oh, so let's drop everything attenuate needs. But she's quiet. She knows what you're doing. Does she try and get involved with music? Do you I think I'll probably, I don't think we'll have actually been recording anything she has bought, there's been some lovely little moments where I think I've got a couple of videos of where I'll be playing guitar or even not even playing guitar and Ruby will say, habit daddy ever you play guitar and I'll dance or sing like, okay, so I'll put the guitar into the app and just strike out anything and she just be dancing around like a free spirit. And yeah, that's that's quite nice to know. Which is, which is a good thing to go back to kids with music. If, if kids love music come in. It's even if it's just a an improv thing, whatever, just to play some music together. Doesn't matter if there's mistakes or whatever you're playing. If you're playing in tune or not. I think it's it's a really great thing to just just have a little thing where you're just playing music and dancing and singing and carrying on and it's just such a warm vibe you get from it. That that's really important. But yeah, there's been a couple of instances where she might say, you know, Daddy, you should record me doing this or doing that today. We could do that. Walk around, but I don't think there's been any recording as of yet. Anyway. I think the day will come and the day will be coming. So I'm looking forward to that. Because yeah, it'd be it'd be really great to have a as a part of something I'll create down the track on it. Awesome. Awesome. So good. Yeah. And she's actually influenced your work as well. Is there's a song that you made when just after she was born? Yeah, actually, yeah. The the day she was born, actually. I think I recorded a little number on my electric acoustic. And I think I snuck in before midnight on the day. So yeah, I think we're just because Emma was in hospital, and I went home for the night and go back this occasion. So I think I just think of just whatever come to my covenant, my fingers and my ears and the ability to tune in it's, I think I've called it welcome my daughter, I believe so. Yeah. And I guess yeah, she's, I suppose, probably with the music. I don't know if it's, she's or father would change the way I've done music, but definitely thinking of topics or issues. If I do write lyrics for a song or something, I guess that's probably where it might have changed because of a father would no say just genuinely getting older and your views might change and definitely your thoughts changing the way you look at the world changes as you get older. So yes, she's probably changing in that aspect of thinking about the world. So is there anything in particular you're working on at the moment, John? I think just, I think the cogs are still in motion. It's just, I think the stuff I'm doing with Steve early later, I think we're still working on a few songs of that here and there when we got the time. But apart from that, it's just when I've got the times to jump into the studio as a call and see if I can be a bit creative, but it's just a it's just a matter of keeping the machine greased and kick the kick the ball rolling and say what the future has in store. Thank you so much, John. It's been a pleasure chatting with you on this special episode. All the best with the music and I'm sure I'll see you soon. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Welcome along late. Thanks so much for being part of this special episode. No worries. Thanks for having me, Allison, of how to listen to a couple of the podcasts so far. And it's sounding really good. So yeah, it's great to be a part of this. Oh, great. Thank you. All right. So for those people who aren't familiar with your music, and what you've been up to Jordan, give us a rundown of how you got into music, what the, the style is, and what you what you're up to at the moment as well. Yeah, for sure. So I got into electronic music, been a DJ. And I also studied audio engineering at SAE in, in Melbourne. So I was, you know, recording bands and stuff like that in Melbourne. And then also DJing on the side. And, and when I sort of, at the end of my finishing up doing DJing, I just wanted to sort of make music and, and at that sort of stage, I sort of got into the electronic music field. And, and yeah, started sort of producing tracks and making music and just my own sort of own sort of style sort of thing. So yeah, that's how it all sort of started out. I was I started out as a punk DJ, like I was at nightclubs in Melbourne, playing, playing punk rock music, and, and, yeah, I used to record bands and stuff and do sound engineering for a fair few bands on the circuit as well. So when I do, you know, between their sets, I used to DJ at the clubs, and then they come on afterwards another mix them while up on stage playing. And that's, you know, that's my early roots has always been punk rock. So, you know, I grew up listening to that, you know, no effects and, and all those sort of punk punk bands, you leave sort of Green Day stuff and living and and all that. And that was the scene I grew up in. And, yeah, that's sort of sort of how my music career sort of started out really, it was, like come from, I've never been really musical as such, but I've always had a fairly good ear for music. So it was more to do with audio engineering and stuff like that. So yeah, but when I first started out as an audio engineer, it was a long time ago. And we were, you know, Pro Tools just sort of started the, the digital era was just coming out. Well, I was I was back when it was, we were recording off of like tape and stuff like that will cut and bits and pieces. So it was a long time ago. And then it was just sort of for me into that digital era. So yeah, it was a it was good time. And that's Yeah, so my early, early parts are all punk rock. That's, you know, that's where I sort of started the whole music sort of thing with me. So when you say, pre electronic sort of equipment, does that mean you were DJing? With proper records and that kind of stuff? Back in the day? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. That's, that's how, you know, we, as DJs when I started, like with the punk rock stuff, it was all on CD and stuff, it had nothing really to do with with mixing as such, you would just drop any music after the song had finished. So you just had to have a really good ear to what would come on after that track it was so it was really just whatever you wanted to play. But then when I that's what sort of got me into electronic music was that it all had to do with like BPM and actually mixing the song and actually making songs really mash together really well without sort of, you know, missing a beat. That's what you couldn't do that with punk rock music, you know, you're just playing songs after songs and just trying to keep the crowd entertained. As much as you want to do that with electronic music, you've got to be a good mixer. And starting off, too, with turntables, like I had a, like a reasonable time on turntables. But I wouldn't say that my main DJing was with turntables that was sort of like, turned over onto that the CD sort of format, and we were sort of mixing off of CDs and CD decks, the early early CD decks and stuff like that, but we were, you know, you had to be a but you had to be a good DJ, to, to be able to get by back then these days. You don't have to do anything, you can just push a button and it'll sync everything up for you. And, you know, the kids love it. So that's a lot. It's, it's a lot different. It's a lot different these days. So, yeah, yeah, for sure. I think a lot of people now just press play and especially the young kids doing it now they don't seem to be actually mixing live as they're going, Oh, it's 100% I you know, my club times in in Adelaide. You know, I sort of that's where I sort of finished my my DJing career is was I had a a like a residency at the casino where we go and play there. Uh, you know, every every Wednesday night, and it was it was really good vibe and everything like that, but we used to go out a lot. And afterwards and that and to other clubs and you go there and you just go up and have a look and see what they're doing. And you would see people push and play on, like a mix on on, you know, like a Spotify mix or something like that. And that was what they were doing. And I'm like, what, like, what are you doing? Are you actually doing anything up here or, you know, and a lot of did it lost its vibe, because the people, they actually, they don't really know how to mix at all, they just have got a sink on their on their mixer. And, and it pretty much well, you know, everything comes together and you get you can't get by if you go to a club, and you sit back and you listen to music. And you either know if it's a shit DJ, or a really good DJ. And that's, that's these days, you can go out and you put it to work and you'll you'll know straight away if it's good, it's good. It's a real skill then to as a DJ to raise your audience to get those people back on the dance floor. You've got to know your stuff. Yeah, that's 100% Like, yeah, definitely, if a DJ doesn't know what he's playing, or, you know, gets up there and, and hasn't got the right tools or, or, or know how to work the decks or anything like that they can fail just so easily. So yeah, it's just it takes it takes a big skill to, to do it. And yeah, a lot, a lot of guys out there are good at it are really good at it. And you don't actually seem or I don't know that many DJs that are right into producing though, even though like most of them are just you know, they just do their weekend DJs and stuff like that. So DJ gigs, so you know, you you don't like the music you're making now you're doing that all from your house, and you're working with people all around the world, which is really exciting. Yeah, 100% the music I make now is basically a collection of music that I made probably around about 2016. And I'm still making music now. I just a lot of the stuff that I made, I put a lot of time and effort into it. So I seem to like go back and revisit a lot of the older stuff that I made. And just keep working on on that. Yeah, so now i i Just jump online, I've got a master over in America that I use. And he's put me in touch with a fair few people to collaborate with singers, the Charlotte law crews from the UK and n a fair few other artists that I that I just work with. And just mainly for vocals. Yeah. And it's just really fun. It's just fun to sort of have a bit of a hobby and a passion for music and still be able to, you know, put something out there at the end of the day and have a bit of fun with it. So yeah, that's my sort of main thing is just as long as you're having fun with music, that's the main thing for me. Absolutely. You've got a young family. Tell us about your your children over there in Victoria. So I've got a young boy named Fletcher. He is coming up to three years old. And I've got a little girl Lexie and she's around one and a half our Lexus she is so yeah, we give her we just call it Lexi. So she loves that. So, yeah. keeping you busy at that age, the two of them run around. Yeah, they sure they sure. Are they sure are they they they cause plenty of headaches but they both really good kids and yeah, we love them to death. Yeah, so how do you go then finding time to to get stuck into your music and create when you've got little people? Do you sort of try and do it at night or weekends? How do you make it work? This is basically my time now it's like minute they're the kids go to bed at sort of, you know, seven o'clock, eight o'clock. As I come up here I've got my own sort of studio up in what I call the schoolhouse, it's like an old converted schoolhouse. So it's just got like, a bed for friends to stay in. And it's just got all my computer equipment and stuff like that up here. So I just sort of come up here and do my thing. You know, it's it definitely has been challenging, I must admit, like coming from you know, just having a partner and being able to do music and that whenever you wanted to to then only doing it at night time you've got to try and really, you know focus and yeah, try and make the time that you've got, you know, make it work. Yeah, yeah, make the most of those limited little slots liberal hours. So you also work you also run a farm I believe so. You're you're pretty much burning the candle at both ends. Really? Yeah, yeah. So we've got a three and a half 1000 acre farm over here in Kassadin. And me and my dad work here on the farm. And we've got like, roughly set like we're in about 350 head of cattle, and so maybe closer to 400 and, and two and a half 1000 sheep here on our farm, so, so it's extremely busy here during the weekdays plus, up in New South Wales, our my brother, my older brother, he has his farm up there, which is around about 13,000 acres. So we used to split our time a lot in between the properties and work both sides of it, but now we tend to sort of stay one end and the other end of my dad sort of floats in between the property. So yeah, we're pretty flat out over here all the time. So, yeah, absolutely. And it will be challenging then to try and, you know, with the kids, you wouldn't actually be able to sort of float between the two properties that easily when you've got your Yeah, that's right. Yeah. 100% it's made it made a lot different. Now having that having a family and stuff like that, it just changes things a lot. You know, so but you know, that's just the part of having a family I guess you've got to make you got to make changes yourself as well. clincher is actually in one of your music videos recently. So I do I do a lot of my own music videos. And I've been doing video for a long time, probably just as long as I've been doing music. So that's one thing I've sort of thought about doing is like, just just do it, just make the video yourself have a bit of fun with it and make it yourself. And they they just love it. They they love being a part of anything. And then when you go back like, you know, if you put if you put TV on and YouTube or tractors on, then you know he gets really grumpy. So that so when he gets on YouTube, and then he sees himself on there, he thinks that's the best thing in the world. Like he thinks it's the funniest thing ever. And he will watch it repetitively all day. And Lexi, well, she just loves it, so she can't get enough of watching him or mommy on there. So they love it. So the I'm going to try and incorporate that the kids into as many of the music videos as I can just have a bit of fun with it. Like I was thinking about sort of getting something, you know, professionally done up and I'm just like, what, what's the hell, you know, like, just just have a bit of fun with it and do it yourself. It's always like, always think that if you have a crack at it yourself and it comes out real raw, it sometimes makes it give it a more feel to it, then then something that's over produced or anything like that, like, you know, you'll give your fuel footage to somebody else. And they'll wrap their hands all over it and, and make it glossy and everything but it doesn't seem as raw as as sometimes. stuff. So, yeah, we just had had a lot of fun making the video for DJ bitch. And yeah, we filmed it on our property. And yeah, we always had this idea to do it. But it was just really an idea. And let's let's just do it. And we had this footage. And it was it had just been sitting there and I said to laser I said we've got to finish it with like half it was shot. And I just sort of started putting it together and it just sort of slotted in really well. And yeah, before too long, I think, you know, the film clip I think was up to about 6000 views at last I looked it was it was quite a shock actually, but it's a good fun. It's a good fun video clip. So, you know, it was just a bit of fun and the kids love it. And like I said they just can't get enough of watching themselves. So it's really good. It is a great video and yeah, I didn't realize that you made that yourself. Congratulations because that is awesome. Yeah, now I do all the all the video on myself and then I get back to the computer here and and produce it all myself. So yeah, it's just fun. Yeah. So you used a drone in that video is that you do that yourself? Yeah, I got my I got my own drone. And so the drone shoots in full 1080 H HD and I use the GoPro as well to get mostly all the shots on the film clip because pretty much a GoPro these days, I just got some of the best, you know, the best pixels as well. They just come out amazing clear and you can just sort of go through and edit up your videos afterwards. So yeah, drone stuff. I've had a drone for a number of years now and yeah, I love love flying them and just yeah, really fun. You kids obviously know that you do your music is that it's something that you you love sharing with the kids, it's important for you to involve them in, in what you're doing. Yeah, for sure my kids really love music. We got a thing at our house that we just love to put on music, like around tea time, or Saturday mornings and stuff like that, it's always music going on at our place. And we just yeah, we just try and involve them as much as we can, you know, whether it's listening to my music or, or listening to other people's music, and they love it, they love dancing, and they just love being kids and, and as adults, mainly, so we both love it as well. So, yeah, that just we just make sure that they've got heaps of arounds, and you know, they're not too scared to have a bit of fun and dance around the living room. Here in my studio, I've actually got a toy toy room here for when so like, on a Saturday, if I'm, if I want to do music or anything like that, I bring the kids up here with me, and they've got their own toy room, and they'll, they'll play toys up here and, you know, push around the boats and the cars and stuff while I'm up here, you know, playing on the computer. So yeah, it's a really sort of fun environment for him. And we don't I definitely don't just run away from the whole family to go and do music. It's just, it's just, you know, Dad's up here, the schoolhouse, and the kids will come up here and, and, you know, they'll ride their bikes around in here and have a bit of fun as well. So yeah, definitely, they're very much included you seen do you find now have with the kids in your life, that the way that you write your music has changed at all? Yeah, like the, like you see the world a bit differently? Maybe anything like that? Yeah, 100%, I'd say, because my music is, you know, electronic and different. I'm just sort of really trying to create a vibe, as much for like, the, the kids and stuff, it definitely hasn't really changed my sort of style as much. Yeah, the only thing that that really has changed is that just not being able to have that flexibility time to you know, just just go and you will just have more time without having the kids and stuff like that you would just end up having a lot more time up yet up your sleeve to sit down and really concentrate on something, and you just win now doing music, you sorta have got to be in the right mindset, or else you just don't get it down. And if you not, if it just doesn't flow, it, you're wasting your time. So yeah, I will, I'll come up and play around with tracks like that. And it's just not working. It's just definitely it's not working. So you just stop and you'll come back another time, but it's it having children and music, you just got to really make time for your passion, I think. And yes, to having having children and stuff like that. It's, it's yeah, it's a great thing. And it's been awesome, but there's definitely challenges involved. And I think if I had children a lot, like, like, I'm 40 Now, if I had them when I was younger, I don't think I would have coped as well. That's one thing I don't really want. I'm glad I had children when I was older. I'm pretty, like I think I'm very selfish myself sometimes, like not now. But I was would have been when I was younger, a lot more selfish or and wanted to sort of achieve more. Now I've got that mindset that I've just don't don't really care anymore. Like I just want to have fun. So but um, but now, you know, been a bit older and stuff like that. I'm just a lot more chilled and just don't really care. And just like I said, I think for myself, if I just have music as a as a passion and a hobby, it breaks down those walls. It's just like, you know, if you achieve something, it's great, but you're not really focused on you've got it, ah, I've got to make the charts or I've got to sell music or anything like that. If people want to listen to it. That's fantastic. And it's awesome. And if you wanted to get shows, that's great. But if you really focused on that and it doesn't happen, it just breaks your heart all the time. And you just end up bearing yourself I think Do you just want to I just want to put stuff out there that I'm really proud of. And, you know, when I released my last album, I had had a lot of messages of people saying, oh my god, that song was just amazing or that was so great. And that's what it comes down to. For me, it's like, just those moments where people say to that, so I think it's really big. Shout out to people that, you know, tell that artists that you really liked their music, it makes a difference to people like it makes people be more productive. And they want to actually, you know, they want to keep pursuing their dreams. And I think today's age too, like with artists, were were artists and musicians and everything that's gone through the whole COVID thing. You know, they need you more than ever right now. People really need to stand up and say, hey, you know what? I'm gonna buy that CD. I love that tune. Keep doing what you're doing. And you know, stay positive because it only takes one person to say, oh, you know your musics crap. And you know, you suck, all of a sudden, that person just shuts down and then they don't want to do it anymore. So you know, as long as you know, since I've been doing music, I haven't even had one person say you, you suck or your shit. It's just like, everything in the music scene, I think is so positive. But we're just going through such a shit time with COVID that no guy out there's work and the poor old industry, music is industry is suffering. The venue's are dying up, they need you more than ever, right now. People, people like myself, anyone out there who's putting music together still is they need you. So, you know, the people out there listening and buying records, you know, they're awesome. That's what we, we do it for. So, you know, yeah. That's so well said. Yeah, that's the thing. And I think big Yeah, because we can't say, the audience face to face because we can't make those, you know, personal connections, it is important for people, if, you know, if you like someone's music, send them a message. And, you know, it's just that little, that little bit of connection, it's just enough to brighten someone up and, and keep them going. And like you said, it's, it's that spark that gets them going. So, yeah, and it's nothing is a stew it's not, I like appreciate so many different styles of music, like I listened to, you know, so much different styles. And even if it's not the general genre that you listen to, you know, just just let them know that that piece of music that that was awesome, you did an awesome job on that, you know, your vocal was fantastic on that. Just just let them know, I think it's like, that's the most positive thing I think with the with the music scene, the artists get behind other artists, even if you got a small majority of fans out there and you know, I don't consider myself having many fans at all but the small group that have that I have around me that they definitely don't shy away with saying hey, that's that tunes. Awesome, great job that's that's a sweet tune, keep getting maybe keep you know, doing that sort of style. It's a love it. So that's and that's what gives me a bit of momentum and stuff and just just to have a bit of fun with it too. So yeah, but it's definitely a struggle out there. And if you know if someone was doing this job at the moment full time and and you know looking for those gigs every weekend I really feel for those people at the moment I you know, it breaks my heart to to see how the music industry is going to recover from this because I know a lot of artists I know that the artists Charlotte lock the, the girl that featured on my album, she she ended up going back to work at a big company and I murder message not long ago and I said you know, how's how's the music going? And she was like, there's no time you know, I've got to get back to work and there's no no gigs. So and she you know, I couldn't never think this girl not seeing again because her voice is so amazing. And it just broke my heart to hear that you know this girl can't get any more gigs and she's had to go back to the office and start working again and slaving away to the man you know you mentioned briefly before Lacey your wife She must be very supportive of of what you're doing and helping you a lot. She's very supportive. She that she loves that she loves being involved. She's you know, probably my biggest fan I every track that I do or take part in in any small way. She's probably the first person who gets it is on that track. So I give it to her and and she'll listen and I'll say what do you think of this? And you know, what do you think of this and she'll be like, oh, yeah, I love it. I love it. I love this bit and you So that Yeah, cuz we sort of feed off each other a lot. And yeah, it's great to have somebody supportive that by your side or that, you know, is prepared to sit up all night while you're at three o'clock in the morning, you know, bouncing ideas off somebody overseas about some track that's getting mastered at you know, some ungodly hour or you know me waking up in the middle of night con I've got such a great idea for a video clip. So, she Yeah, she's really great and very supportive and yeah, yeah, I love her a lot. Yeah, and she got got a little bit of a go in the video as well. The music video. Yeah, she was up there dancing with flat chi and it was quite funny. She said I'll go up and dance with which I said yeah, get up there and have a dad so yeah, it was good. Mid say I loved the little little jacket that he had on too. Yeah, he's gonna wear that northern all the film clips we've decided he loves his he loves that jacket. He calls it his DJ check jacket so he really thinks it's really cool so yeah what if he got on at the moment or anything coming up that you want to share? I've got one track that I'm working on at the moment. I've just I've got another girl that's just doing some vocals for me for this track. It's, it's called creatures. It's one you've heard lately. It's like I really wanted to make something that was sort of like really on that that preset vibe that really pumped up sort of idea and just it didn't really have to mean anything. It was just sort of a like really pumped up track. Yeah, that's what I'm working on at the moment. So I just sort of had that mastered but let's come back and and why can't I just need something else to sort of give it a bit of an edge so I thought I'll try it with a female vocals. I'm just waiting for those vocals to come back and I'll put in the track and yeah, see how that turns out let me lose a happy move. I don't know what to do. Everything about my situation is a winner loser. I know the feeling of people when they don't do any bad. I made a choice to ignore my movie Jason bash. What is exact feeling when I listen to a couple of podcasts before? And he the people what they were saying about you know, and you know that they have music? And then that was on the backburner? Because they've got so much time, it's what happens. I think when you have a family, it's like so much gets put on the backburner though, doesn't it? It's like, it's incredible, that, you know, you've got all this, all this passion and all this art that you want to get out there and want to push out into the world. And all of a sudden, you can't because you're locked down with the, with your family and doing your doing the stuff that's, that's, that's important to them. And then all of a sudden, you can't you can't get it out. And then it's sort of built up, it really is built up, especially if they're, if they're, if it's a person that's putting out stuff constantly, and has a family and all of a sudden that sort of just kind of it's it's hard it's just about expressing yourself, I think and as long as people can keep getting it out there. That's the main thing. And you know, I imagine for women, especially having kids, it's so important to nurture those kids and you seem to be putting everything into the children I know from seeing it firsthand, through my wife that she puts everything into our kids and, and your wonder like now I've you know, she's focused on going back to studying more at nursing and, and, and that's something that she's passionate about and she loves so we make time to fit her you know, things that she needs to do to into into her life things but it's such a thing is like you know, when you when if you don't have an outlet somewhere or a passion and you've got nowhere to you know to do it, it builds up and you know, probably can end up being the falling down of your marriage or anything like that because you just got no outlet and you feel like you're locked up with the children and just having this dull life that you you know, that just ends up crashing around around you. If it doesn't have you don't have an outlet Thanks so much for coming on today. Like it's been great to chat and all the best with whatever you've got coming up soon. I can't wait to hear some new tracks from me. No worries. Thanks, Alison. I really appreciate coming on the podcast and yeah, I wish you all the success for it. It's sounds fantastic so far. And yet, let's hope you keep going with it in the future and it keeps coming out and bringing positive messages with it. Thanks for coming on today. Adam. It's a pleasure to have you join on this very special episode. I am stoked. It's I think it's important to to open up these conversations. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. So can you tell us about your connection with music, how you got into playing and all the amazing things that you've done over the years? All right, well, how long have we got? Look, I first got into music fully, I guess in in Mount Gambier when I was a student at at Grant High School. And that kind of led on to coming up to Adelaide to to study jazz and as a saxophonist, and from that point, I I kind of I don't know, I just had a setback and and let the you know, let the music guide where I was going and I've done all kinds of things in my life since then, musically from spending three and a half years on cruise ships. playing in the orchestra is on ships to you know, touring with with bands around around the country and around the world and playing in make millions of recordings and as I guess a freelance saxophonist, but also a lot of writing as well heaps of writing for small ensembles and larger ensembles. Currently, I'm I'm writing for the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra and have done multiple times in the last few years. I've written major works for New Zealand Symphony Orchestra and orchestra Wellington as well. I've traveled the world with my multi instrumental looping, improvised show. Yeah, I didn't know like heaps, heaps and heaps and heaps of stuff. And this. This stuff happened. I mean, you know, a lot of it happened before I was a father. But there's still yeah, there's still a lot of it that still exists. Just it just it just looks a little different now. Yeah, for sure. So you said multi instrumentalist? How many instruments can you play? Well, I own a lot more than I can play. But I mean, I guess the woodwinds are my first go to so you know, all of the saxophones clarinet, flute. Other flutes like Native American flute and Bansuri. But then, you know, piano has always been a big part of my, my sort of creativity. And the tools for writing sort of come from the piano. I play guitar, bass, drums and percussion. Yeah, and other bits and pieces. We eat instruments from around the world. But yeah, I guess you know, I call myself a multi instrumentalist, but you know, I'm I'm a saxophone player first. So you just you have a passion for just like trying out new things and just seeing what happens and finding new ways to do things. Yeah, I do I do because I mean you know musics music and the, you know, the, the fundamentals of music remain no matter what instrument you play. And so like I, you know, I play drums. Like, I play the saxophone, I play, you know, the nose flute, in the same way that I was, I would play the bass, it's just, you know, it's the same music but just a different different technique and a different, a different voice that you're using, but inside it's still the same the same music Let's go. And you went to New Zealand recently I saw on your Instagram. I did. And that was pretty lucky. I had been working on a on a saxophone concerto that was that was written for me that I had collaborated with as well in the composition process. And yeah, so I've been working on it for a long time. And I got up to a point where it was was ready, and I was ready to go over and work with this orchestra and, you know, do the performance and recording as well. And then, you know, some, some, some COVID business was starting to drop around the place. And I luckily, I got over, you know, before anything happened. And while I was over there, the Victorian outbreak sort of happened. And I luckily changed my flights earlier to go through Auckland and Adelaide rather than Melbourne. If I'd gone through Melbourne, I would have yet I would have been stuck. But yeah, I got back a day before locked down in South Australia. So I'm very lucky, I got it done. Because I think, you know, I mean, I'm just so used to cancellations. Now the last 18 months has just been just one project lost after another. And I've got used to that kind of dynamic that it creates creatively. But if this if this show was canceled, I would have been pretty gutted. It's like an emotional roller coaster isn't it really is really tough. And, you know, the deeper we get into this, you know, like I'm understanding more and more about my, my creative process and what, what I need and what keeps me buoyant. And a lot of a lot of these sorts of situations that are occurring around us are, in a lot of ways, they're kind of they're they're sort of drowning my my normally buoyant kind of attitudes and and my direction that I normally kind of take so and that's just purely because we can't, you know, we can't dream money we can dream. That's it, we can't fully turn those dreams into, into a reality without all of this uncertainty is attached to it. So it's yeah, it's very difficult. Yeah, for sure. It's like, you want to have ideas and goals and dreams, but you're sort of like, well, what's the point? Because it's not going to happen anyway, like, you feel that it's crushed before? Yeah, I'm trying, I'm trying not to get to that point of like, what's the point? Because, because the you know, in so many ways, the point is, it's not in the delivery, it's in the creation. And I hear, but it's hard, though, it's hard. Because, you know, you've taken, you know, you take away one fundamental part of the, of the project, which is the delivery. And it's very hard to stay focused. Without letting that that idea of, of uncertainty creep in, you know, it does definitely affect affect the creation effect ever every level of it. Really. Yeah, absolutely. Have you been able to do much like work online with your music or you found other ways to be able to create? Yeah, look back in the, like, you know, the first sort of wave, I guess you could call it I did a few online performances, which went really, really well. Like, I was surprised actually, that the community that that kind of, you know, opted in was super supportive. And, you know, I could I could see the comment thread just going crazy while I was performing and it was just, it was just really nice. I'm, I'm planning on doing another couple of those in the in the coming weeks as well. Just like basically for my my friends over in, you know, New South Wales and Victoria and just to give them something to consume. But aside from that, I've been really lucky that I've had some I've had some composition projects that have really kept me kept me going with with the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra and, and also, some other, you know, work with, with a small ensemble, the Ben Todd quartet, with Ben Todd, who's a drummer, Paul white and James Marlowe and that those two projects have really kind of kept me kept me going. Yeah, but it's hard. So you mentioned a little bit before, before you had two kids, what did you music life look like at that stage? Where you're doing it full time? Oh, yeah, it's there. You know, there's, there's no doubt that once you have kids, the, you know, that changes, you know, and for me, I, I kind of made a, made a decision before we had our first daughter, that my life was going to change. Okay, and so, what what I had in the past will not, I will never have that again. And that, that led to me really thinking about priorities and this at this moment in my life, like what is important, and it really like, I mean, it was, it was just so clear that the most important part of my life right now is is, is my family and creating those, those irreversibly positive relationships with my, with my children and with my partner as well. And so, yeah, everything changed. I was doing so much stuff, creatively, and I was definitely absolutely in control of my day of my week of my hour, there was a point before we had kids, where, you know, there was quite a while where I would on a Sunday night, look at my week, and I printed out these calendars with you know, from from 5am to midnight, basically. And I would, I would schedule everything that was happening in the week, and I would just sit there for an hour or so on a Sunday night and, and just put it all in including, like hangtime including breaks, including just like okay, so on Thursday, I'm doing nothing. And then and I'll just let it happen and so you know, my go to the art gallery, I might go for a swim or whatever, you know, Thursday's Friday, but then all of the other days I would like totally just go like right this is best case scenario. And then you know, I'd you know, on Monday night I would I would look at it and go see what's happening Tuesday and go like no let's call or I could change this change that so it was a very, very productive incredibly and then when you have children you like if you're if you're a committed parent if you are completely into the next few years being you know, in a state of creative upheaval, if you commit to that then you know it it changes it changes everything you know, you can't it's not possible to to have those those sorts of positive relationships without making sacrifices and you know, and I hope I'm not sounding negative here like because I I'm very positive about and I'm very happy about the choices I make because will have made and continue to make because I have had you know I've had discussions with with people who have gone the other way where they have followed the path of their career and their and their music or their art and it's it's caused the you know, the downfall of their family and that's that's that's long term. Okay, that's that's an absolute long term thing that that everybody regrets I'm sure and so so yeah, it's it's I don't know I've just gone I'm going around in so many circles here in different different directions. But you know what I'm saying like you've just got to make those sacrifices for the good of your of your of your village you know of that that beautiful thing that we call family or let's see yeah, so you had you had a conscious think about it I suppose of what what your life was gonna look like and made a decision for yourself. But can I if I can add to that Yeah. We also with with my partner Giorgio like we had really fantastic conversations about my career and about my art and about what I need, because I my needs are very clear like I need to be creating I need to be doing something musically and and the importance of that and so you know, the conversation just even having a conversation about the the importance of art of music and being creative in my life. actually gave me more room to to step away from that for a while. And know that when the time was right, I can, I can commit to it again, I can just go straight back into it. So and, and it was funny because in the first, in her first year of life, I wrote basically 90 minutes of orchestral music for this concert, and I have no memory of writing it. Like, I don't know how I did it, but we made it work. And there was a bunch of projects that happened in that, you know, in those first kind of couple of years, because it's like, we had these conversations, we were totally open about, what, you know, what I wanted to do, but, but most importantly, what I was capable of first, firstly, as a, as a, as a musician, as an artist, but then secondly, as a father, you know, like, so it's a constant balance between the two. And, you know, sure, it tips out of balance, sometimes, sometimes I'm way too busy. And, you know, I'm relying too much on, on family, and, you know, George's parents, and, you know, to kind of, you know, give us a bit of help, but there, but then other times, I find that man, I haven't picked up my horn in two weeks, you know, yeah, but it's just constantly constantly kind of in flux. bar out communication is key, all because, you know, like, one, kind of, you know, 30 minute conversation can make the next six months, like, so much easier, because you're, you're honest about your needs, and you're honest about about the capabilities, that you have to be able to kind of get to the finish line with these with the projects, but, but at the same time, it's like, you start that dialogue around, around how it's going to affect the family, because, because that's the big change. Now, it's not just about me, you know, like, I, you know, with my partner, we, you know, she used to love it when I went away when I did, because they said a lot of international touring a lot, a lot of touring around the place, and she'd be like, awesome, I've got some time to myself, it's fantastic. And I used to love being away as well, it's just so fun, so fantastic. And, but then all of a sudden, it's just like, it's no longer about, like me, it's like, it's like it's you, me and us all together, you know, and, and if that's the, this, the, if that's central to your to every conversation, then you actually end up getting a better result, like everyone gets a better result from from being open and, and communicative and clear with with your needs. And also being realistic. I love doing this stuff. Because, you know, we, we need to talk, we need to talk about this stuff. Like I feel every time I talk about my my parenting style and how it aligns with my, with my art, I just, I feel good, I feel really positive. And I feel you know, and at times where, you know, at the moment, there's a lot of negativity surrounding our lives. And, you know, I think I think just just talking this stuff through reminds, reminds me that, that, you know, this too shall pass. And, and I will get to a point where I'll get a tour, you know, somewhere and I'll I will say to my four year old or their, you know, your might be six at that point, Hey, you want to come on the road with me for a couple of weeks, you know, like, I know, that's going to happen, you know, I know that's going to happen. But yeah. And that's because it's because of the sort of the choices I'm making now. And and waiting, letting letting life be be the thing that that that steers me, rather than my creativity, if you know what I mean. It's like you're, in a way you're in a sort of a holding pattern, got all this amazing stuff, you know, you've got to look forward to because of how you've set, set your life up and set things up with your family. So it's really positive when you look forward and it's salutely and it's a bit of a slow burn. You know, you can't expect it to happen straightaway. And I mean, sometimes I expect I expect things to happen far too soon. And you know, I've just got to kind of To try and try and sort of, you know, lose some of that disappointment, knowing that it will, and knowing that, you know, it will be easier because I mean, we've got a four year old and a one year old at the moment. And so we're, we're in it at the moment, we're in it deep. And, you know, and it's no, no word of a lie that the these last, you know, four years of our lives, it's the hardest hardest we've ever had to deal with. You know, you're just, you're just totally forced to your absolute capacity and then some and but then you get out to the other side, and just be like, Well, that was intense. That was intense. And, and then, yeah, like, it just, it's, there's nothing like, these first few years to, to really kind of remind you what it's like to be a human, or what it takes to be human. Yeah. And also, I think it gives you a sense of how much you're actually capable of that you probably didn't realize, because I've been forced to these extremes before. That's actually like, you can discover a lot of stuff about yourself that you didn't know. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But then on the other end of the spectrum, like I did not know, that I was capable of, of having so much love for someone else. Yeah. You know, I like the love I like I'm tearing up here. love I have for my children, is it? I don't know anything else like it? Or I actually know nothing else like it. And, you know, when when I walk in the door, you know, the half an hour ago, and I hear my one year old going? Daddy data, data, and it just like just crawling as fast as you can to get to me? Like, it's just like, far out like, what? What, what show have I ever done? That is as good as that. You know? It's the best and I think, yeah, I I hope that my kids realize that. I mean, I know they do. Yeah, I don't have to tell them that I love them so much. You know? Because I mean, I do every moment I can, but they I know they can feel it. Yeah, your actions, your behaviors are showing that that? Yeah, and I'm sure, I'm sure that that the the art that I'm creating at the moment is is, is is in some way guided by by that love? Hmm, that's something I'm interested to that I'd like to chat with people about, have you found that, that change in your life, that being a parent, and that all the changes in the intensities that go with it? How does that How has that come out in your work, you find it reflected in what you're creating? I think I've written probably the most beautiful music that I could write through thinking about my, my daughters. One of them was when my, my eldest she look, we would have been about maybe six months old, and just screaming at three o'clock in the morning, holding her just just absolutely the at the end of my, you know, of what I could give her and just sitting at the piano and just started playing these arpeggios. And she just stopped. And the you know, I thought, Oh, this is cool. And so I just kept playing and kept sort of doing this, these these, you know, very simple arpeggios and, and yeah, everything changed. And then I like I remembered it once he was asleep, and I just sat down at like, what at four o'clock in the morning, whatever it is and wrote out this piece of music and, and to this day, it's like it comes to her and it calms me and and then last year I wrote her a saxophone concerto that was it was inspired by COVID and how the COVID pandemic was was developing and then halfway through and in the second movement. I just it was when when, you know our youngest was born. And and yeah, it's I think it's the Yeah, it's up there with absolutely some of the most beautiful music I've made just because I I had her in my mind and I had her absolute kind of beauty and and it just it just came through in the notes and like music that never would have existed without without these experiences and I think I think the the beauty comes out of like The pain and suffering as well that you go through having having children and, and, and that loss of that loss of your old life because it is, you know, I miss it. I'm not gonna lie, I miss it so much. It's like a mourning process you have to go go through the lonely because and I mean if you if someone says no I don't miss my old life I you know, this is this is this defines me now it's just like, that's, that's crap, I don't believe that for one second for one second and you know what it's, I'm allowed to miss it. Because I miss it so much because it was so awesome. You know, but because it was so awesome that has turned me into a different person. And so it's like, well, you know, all of those experiences still exist, they exist in who I am right now. And all of those experiences still exist in in, in the stories that I'm going to tell my, my kids about, you know, the things that I used to do. And but then, you know, I don't I'm not saying that I'm going to be a hermit and just a father for the rest of my life, I know that things are going to change, things are going to get easier. And I'm going to get back on the road, I'm going to get back into doing more stuff and more full time. But at the moment, I've made that choice I've made that deal to be to be there to be present. What does your days look like? Now? I mean, obviously, you're quite busy with a one year old. But when do you find the time to be able to do what you need to do with your music? Well, so we've, we've found an amazing childcare center that both actually both my my kids go to now because Georgia, my partner, she went back to work three weeks ago, three days a week. So that's, that's been amazing. So the eldest goes three days a week, and the one year old, she goes twice a week. So I've effectively got two to three days of creative time now. It's excellent. And I have no idea how to use it. Like I'm telling you I'm at the moment like I'm, I've just been thrusted all of this time. And also because you know, it's a pretty, it's a pretty crazy world out there at the moment with COVID. And we were just committing to me doing some more travel, I'd meant to be playing three weeks at the Sydney Opera House in September, even though there hasn't been kind of publicly canceled. So and I was meant to be in Darwin this week for a festival. And of course, they've just coming out of lockdown. And so I've effectively got about six weeks of free time now as well, which has made our lives so much easier as parents because I wasn't going to be away for four or five weeks. Which I was really anxious about, just because of the implications of the home life, you know, and how Georgia could manage me we've got amazing supports from her, her parents. My folks still live in that Gambia so they can't, they can't help out in a physical sense. Yeah, so but but with this time that I've got, I'm in a real creative funk, hey, like, I've got all these projects that I want to, to embark on. I've been I've been constantly kind of dreaming stuff and writing stuff down. But to actually get to that next level, I'm finding it quite difficult. And I think there's a few things that are that are, like impacting my normal kind of man, one my normal direction or my normal flow. And first and foremost, it's, it's that idea of what's the point? Yeah, are they actually going to happen? Like, you know, but I have to keep reminding myself that it's not, you know, the view is worth the climb. And so it's that whole kind of like, okay, the, the actual process is what, what I get the most amount of energy out of, you know, but then also, I mean, this is this is another can of worms, social media, like I'm, I'm absolutely 100% addicted to social media. And as as we all are, you know if anyone's got Facebook or Instagram or Twitter on their phone, you're addicted immediately because those algorithms are so great. They suck you in. So and also sort of not seeking out bad news. But just like, looking at the news websites just to see what what bad things happened next, you know what I mean. And that's had a profound effect on my, on my outlook on life, like I'm, at my core, I'm an incredibly positive and optimistic person. And I'm just feeling now that, you know, the, the, the weight of the world is getting a bit too much for me. And, and so I'm actually I've made the decision this morning, I'm going to have a bit of a break from social media, just because I've just found myself in some situations online, that have been quite negative, and have sort of kept me up at night. And I don't need that. So I think if I can, you've got a one year old to keep you up at night. You don't need anything else came. Yeah. I know. And so, yeah, it's, it's a great, it's a great time to be having this discussion. Because, you know, the, the fact of the matter is that, you know, I've got all this time, and I'm being super creative. But actually, the reality is, like, I've got all this time, and I have no freaking idea how to use it. And that's the reality. And that's, that's something that we need to all kind of embrace. I think. You can't be super creative all the time. Like, this might be like a healing time that you just need for yourself, you know, to, I mean, a lot of people I think some people like hate lock downs and hate whatever it is, but I know some people I've spoken to that are enjoying being locked away, because the world is so proud. And just being with the people they love and with the family that they need around them. I know that it's putting a spin on a negative, but, you know, cocooning time for you, and then you know, the butterfly will come out, you know, sometimes, Oh, absolutely. And I do track that I was forced into a, you know, physical and creative locked down last year was pretty, like, the timing was pretty amazing. Because, because we were about to have a kid, our second kid, and it was like, Okay, we're home. So what else are we going to do? We are going to, we're going to be here as a quartet. Like, who can go and deep was it was, it was fantastic. And I think, for me, it's yeah, I'm still having trouble getting out of that zone. Because I loved it. Like, I, I loved the fact that we were together so much. And that I'd made that choice four years ago, when we know when we had our first that it's like, this is this is a moment in time that I cannot get back. And any opportunity I can take to connect is going to bear fruit in the future. Yeah, and I mean, I've got some, there's some role models in my life that have that have been guiding me as well, like really strong, strong men and strong fathers that have really helped me through making these decisions as well. You know, and, yeah, and so the deeper you get into that mode of deep connection, and parenting, the harder it is to get out of it as well. And I think that's a part of it, as well, like i Yes, I've been incredibly creative in this time, and these last four years. But I have no idea how I think, I think, yeah, necessity, I think deadlines are the only things that have actually kept me focused. I didn't have a deadline. I wouldn't be doing anything. I actually did write the other day. So I'm on Instagram, someone said that deadlines are really good for musicians, because they make you get off your acid. diester Absolutely, absolutely. And I feel like, I feel like I need to get back into that kind of idea. Because I mean, for me, you know, so many of my bands that I would start were like, basically, we would just be hanging out, you know, mates hanging out talking about music, had this idea for a band, and then all of a sudden we book a gig and get a t shirt designed. And before we've even written a note so it's like you know, like that's yeah, let's Let's book the gig. Let's get the vibe. This is what it's gonna be like and like, bam, here it is. And yeah, then go. Okay, so what is it going to be? Who's playing well? I think I need a bit more than added my life nothing like a reduced stress to get you going. mentioned that you've had some really good role models around you positive and negative, I suppose you'd say things that you you think, Oh, actually, I don't want to do that. Yeah, there's lessons everywhere. You know, I think that where where we go so well, is through communication. And, you know, some some interactions I've had with other fathers in the past have been quite insightful just in the just in the way that they describe their relationships, you know, with their partners, you know, like, just using that, that idea of, you know, are you lucky, your missus have, you know, let you out of the house, that sort of thing. And so it's like, man, if you're gonna use that kind of language with me, I doubt you've had, you've had a really kind of, you know, deep conversation about your needs both both of their needs. And so, you know, I, I've kind of learnt from friends that have had children before me that, that communication is key to being a great parent, so communication with your other half, because sometimes it'll be, you know, it feels like weeks, we're living in the same house, but sometimes it feels like weeks that we've actually connected, like, within Georgia, it's like, full on and, you know, and that's, that's a scary, that's a scary cycle that can be, that can be created, you know, to the point where you, you feel like, you don't know each other anymore. And like, and so communication is just so important, you know, communicating when things are going well, as well. Or not just when things are going badly, you know, and when things are difficult, it's like let's, let's celebrate these these moments of, of Claire clarity and, and enjoying our life or new life together, you know? Yeah, so I've definitely, I've definitely taken that from from my friends. You know, James Brown, who's a guitarist, one of my best friends here. Yeah. Him and his partner and their family. They've they've been a big influence, as has Ross McHenry, who's another fantastic musician, incredibly prolific creator, with three kids, I don't know how he does incredible, but he's been a massive kind of beacon for me. But also John Sophos, who's a composer in New South, in New South Wales, in New Zealand, who's my, one of my favorite people in the world, and, you know, he's, he's got adult children now. And, you know, he, he came and stayed with us, you know, when our, when our eldest was about kind of one and a half ish. And we would just sort of sit up the frontman her and just chat and just spend time together. And, and he said to me, that I, that he could see himself in me in the decisions that he made when he was a young parent, to put his his career and creativity on the back burner for a while and really hook in with the kid. He's now so close with his kids that are adults, you know, and, and he said that the stuff that you do now is it's fertilizer. You know, it's, it is lifelong. It's a lifelong connection. And, and you've only got one chance to create that connection. And, and he just said, Look, I'm so happy with what you're doing. Because he's, he's reaping the benefits of it now, with these amazing relationships with these incredible human beings. I know both of his, his his Well, kids so well, as well. And they're amazing humans, you know. And so I look at him and just think, right, it might be hard now, but I know that what's happening what's to come is pretty, pretty magnificent. That's it, you're sowing the seeds to reap in the field. And I truly believe in that, that idea of we only get one chance at this, you know, I've got so many chances to write a new song. I've got so many chances to, to start a new band to you know, A book a tour, whatever, you know, whatever creative thing, I've got so many chances, and if one chance disappears, then there'll be another one. But right now, this is my only chance to be to be that that kind of person that I truly want to be as a father that, that, you know, absolutely. Connected Absolutely. Kind of engaged. Kind of human around them. And, and you know, silly as well, you got to be silly. Get down on the floor got to get down on the floor with them and play. Yes, that's just so important. Yeah. And again, going back to the social media thing, I think I, I'm using it as a bit of a kind of advice, I think. And it's starting to creep into my, my relationship with my kids as well, like, I'll be talking with them, but I'll be looking at FACP. At the same time, I'm like, Whoa, what's going on? I need to stop this wall. So I don't I don't drink anymore. I stopped drinking five years ago. This is before we even started kind of talking about really having kids and while we've been talking about them, but actually, you know, trying, which I'm happy about. And so I don't have to have like alcohol to fall back on. which so many of us do, like and I can see the power of alcohol as well to have a when you just want to have a nice glass of wine at the end of the day. You know, alcohol works? Absolutely. So, so I don't have that. And so is that why you cut it out? Because you could see your alignment team? Yeah, absolutely. And it's hard. It's been the hardest thing to maintain. But also, I'm feeling really good about it. Yeah. Good. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, right now, what is it? It's it's one one o'clock in the afternoon and I'm I'm actually drinking a beer right now. It's a It's so I'm still drinking but it's just non alcoholic beer and yeah. Thanks, great. Do rejoice, and celebrate when when Georgia, you know, has a swig on the tequila bottle. It's like it's pretty cool. It's just like, oh, yeah, you needed that you needed that I did want to ask you about your music around the children, particularly your older daughter. Do you play your instruments around her? It's like she, she's into your music. Here's how it goes. Okay, I sit down at the piano. I play one note, Daddy, stop. I sing a note. No, Daddy, stop. Yeah, it's been. It's going well, yeah. But she's decided that she likes being in the same room as me when I'm practicing the saxophone. Which I get, I've usually I've had to go to I've got it. I'm lucky enough to have a studio space as well. And so I'll go to the studio to practice and just because I know if I start playing, she'll run at me and yell at me. And, and I'm cool with that, because I'm not forcing it on her. It's like, she is such a strong willed little girl. That that's just you know, it's a fight. I'm not, I'm not prepared to to embark on because it might just end up with her hating music. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want to do that. I mean, she she'll never hate music. He loves music. She we listen to music all the time. She loves David Bowie. She loves like, she just loves music, which is fantastic. She wants to play the violin. And that's that came out of nowhere. I think just because we've been watching orchestral things and listening to orchestral things. Yeah, but so she'll sit with me when I practice. And so now, when I practice the saxophone with her. I'm purposely doing really simple stuff. I'm playing major scales. I'm playing scales in thirds. I'm doing things that aren't going to scare her away. So when she starts to play As a musical instrument, she's already going to know these sounds. And she's already going to know. Like, how to practice. Yeah, and and funnily enough, yeah, like it was, it was amazing like after, you know, a week or so she, you know, she came in with me a few times. She was just sort of sitting in the bath and singing, and she started singing this melody in thirds. She was making up like, unicorn and the fairy was things I think the singing in theaters and I'm like, Darling, are you singing what i've what I was practicing. She's like, Yeah. And I just thought to myself, well, there it is, like, it's, yeah, our youngest one. On the other hand, we can I can, I can pick up a spoon, and then drop it on the ground. And she will just go like, Oh, that sounds awesome. And she'll dance around. And she like, she is the absolute opposite. She like you put on any kind of music and she just explodes right there can pull up this and I, you know, and I play, you know, I play the anything and she loses it. She goes crazy. When I put the blender on in the morning. She thinks it's the greatest sound in the world. And she's just sitting there dancing to the funny. Yep, she's just looking for any any opportunity just to bust out and move. She's just pieces hanging work? Absolutely. Oh, look, I know that those qualities that that, you know, the oldest has are only going to be kind of her, or they are going to be her superpowers when she's older. You know, it'd be so easy for us to to destroy that part of her. You know, but we want we're embracing it. Because, you know, the world needs more powerful women and she's she's going to take on the world. And I I wish anyone luck that stands in her way because they will not win. But that's that's what I love about her as well as as challenging as it is. And as hard as it is to deal with sometimes it's actually like, pretty exciting. That she's gonna be that kind of person. Absolutely. Thank you can't wait to see can't wait to see what she doesn't care. She changes the world. Hope she's my manager actually, that'd be good. My manager, my bouncer. Yeah, personal security guy. Oh, that's awesome. is important for you to maintain who you are as a person outside of your role as a parent? Absolutely. Because, you know, as much as, as much as we say that, you know, we're the same person. It's, we're not, you know, and, and I really do believe that the identity is is incredibly important. And, you know, but but you need to know what, what that is, as well. And so, you know, what, what is my identity? And like, what, what do I identify with? And you know, what makes me me? And I've, yeah, there's a few things that make me me. One of them is, is reading, I read a lot. And I still read a lot. And I the one thing that I've kept from my, my life, pre kids is reading. And so every night I've read, it might be two pages. It might be two lines, it might be 100. I don't think I've, I mean, there might be some nights where I'm just absolutely smashed, and I just need to go to sleep. But generally, I'll read. So that's, you know, that's a big thing about my identity that I've kept. And that's and that's a silent part of my identity as well. But it's such an important part of me and a part of my life. And if I wasn't reading i i wouldn't be a very happy person. And so So yeah, that that is the one thing that I've been, I've kept control of my identity as a musician. I don't think that changes because my identity isn't just about me, my identity is actually in other people. Now that might be Come out, it's kind of strange, but you know, in the eyes of, of, of my public and the people that enjoy my music, they don't see me as a father, they see me as out of page the bearded musician. So in many ways my identity still exists. Okay, so that side of it, my public identity still exists. And if I, if I'm, if I'm trying to kind of, you know, simmer away at projects, and which I have been doing a bit, it's been more than simmering, it's been boiling sometimes, but, you know, if my output remains, then my identity in the public eye is the same. It just keeps growing, I guess. But yeah, but personally, it's quite simple. For me in it, and it's, and it's reading, it's listening to music as well. It's a big part of my journey, my kind of journey of being a better person is exploring other other music and letting the music in, rather than just leaving the music out. And, and that's something that I can do with my children as well. And I can share that. And that's, in many ways, kind of really helping our relationship as well, because they're growing through music. And, but then, but then, you know, you kind of have to ask yourself, you know, who am I and, I mean, who, who I was yesterday is different to who I am today. And who I'll be tomorrow, and that's just, that's totally, that's up to me, and it's up to my, my mindset at the time. Because if you think that your, your identity is fixed, then then you're missing out on so many other air like factors of your life that you don't know, existed. And so, I, that idea of identity is is kind of attached to the idea of self, you know, what is self what is, you know, it's just, I don't know, I feel like my my identity is who I am right now. And, and who I am right now, is someone that's, that's in a bit of a creative funk. And I'm okay with that. Because that's who I am right now. You can accept and, yeah, except that except that that's what it is. And if I, if I accept then if I was to be like, Uh huh, I should be this person, I should be this, you know, multi award winning bla bla bla bla bla, that's, that means nothing. Who I am right now. It's who I am right now. And so that, to me is preserving my identity because I'm accepting my identity. For it, we're going deep. Oh, I love it. I kind of hear I need these conversations as well like because, you know, I do I do talk with friends about this stuff, you know, and it always makes me feel better at the end. So it's nice that we're pressing record think the big takeaway from this for if there's any, any fathers listening even mothers as well, is like communication is just key. And, and talking about the things that you really want to do. And then finding a way together to be able to do them. You know, like, just being open. And communicating has just, yeah, it's just made it made made potentially sticky situations. really manageable. You know, and as I said, before, we've got so much help from from family that yeah, we're so lucky. We're very lucky. Very, very, very lucky. I'm eternally grateful for for the people that help us and help me actually it's mostly about me being able to realize not some of my artistic kind of, you know, dreams if you must. Yeah. So yeah, it takes it takes a village