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Mezz Coleman Australian indie musician S2 Ep48 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Welcome! My guest today is Melbourne songstress, songwriter + vocal coach Mezz Coleman, mum of 2 children, aged 16 and 11. Mezz grew up with music all around her. Her parents took a leap of faith and began a music therapy business, her siblings played as did her friends. It was so normal to see people make a living from music. Having been immersed in it from a young age, it was quite organic that Mezz would spend her life making music. She began playing the piano from a young age, dabbled in the flute and guitar. Straight out of high school Mezz went to Uni to study a jazz improv course. Her son was born in her final year of Uni, so Mezz has never experienced her music career without having children. Mezz has released 3 studio albums, Parts of You, Parts of Me in 2010 , Words in 2015 and a Christmas Album in 2015 . Mezz is currently recording her third studio album, a chamber indie-pop record, produced by Rohan Sforcina (Oh Mercy, Kate Miller Heidke, Ali Barter, Ferla) Adored by folk festival audiences around the country and celebrated as “a musical treasure” ( Bendigo Blues & Roots Festival ), Mezz has a unique ability to conjure worlds, transporting audiences with her powerful vocals and straight-to-the-heart lyrics. Her career has seen her appear on national television on Carols by Candlelight , and open for the likes of Kimbra, multi-award-winning songwriter Sara Storer and iconic Australian artist Shane Howard (Goanna). When she’s not performing her own material, Mezz’s experience as a backing vocalist and session vocalist, has given her the opportunity to work with many international and national artists including Nana Mouskouri, Brian McFadden, Marcia Hines, Delta Goodrem, Barry Humphries, John Foreman and the Melbourne Gospel Choir. In 2021 Mezz toured as backing vocalist and keyboard player for The Marrollo Project’s “Uninvited: The Songs of Alanis Morissette” . Mezz website / music / linktree Podcast - instagram / website Music heard on todays podcast is from Mezz, used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mothers work is influenced by their children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bandik people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast. It is really great to have you here. My guest today is Melbourne songstress, songwriter and vocal coach, Mezz Coleman, who's also amother of two children aged 16 and 11. Mezz grew up with music all around her, her parents took a leap of faith and began a music therapy business her siblings played as did her friends. It was so normal to see people make a living from music. Having been immersed in it from a young age. It was quite organic that Ms would spend her life making music. She began playing the piano from a young age, dabbled in the flute and guitar. straight out of high school Mezz. went to uni to study a jazz improv and her son was born in her final year of uni. So Ms has never experienced her music career without having children. Ms has released three studio albums, parts of you parts of me in 2010 words in 2015 and a Christmas album also in 2015. Mercy is currently recording a chamber indie pop record, adored by Folk Festival audiences around the country and celebrate it as a musical treasure. By the Bendigo blues and Roots Festival. Mays has a unique ability to conjure words, transporting audiences with her powerful vocals and straight to the heart lyrics. Her career has seen her appear on national television on carols by candlelight. And I prefer the likes of Kimbra multi award winning songwriter Sarah Stora and iconic Australian artists Shane house of Goanna fame when she's not performing her own material mess his experience as a backing vocalist and session vocalist has given her the opportunity to work with many international and Australian artists such as Nana Maskuri, Brian McFadden, Marcia Hines, Delta Goodrem, Barry Humphries, John Foreman and the Melbourne gospel choir in 2021. Mears tour is backing vocalist and keyboard player for uninviting the songs of Alannis Morissette. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. And thanks for your continued support. Welcome to the podcast today, mares. It's a real pleasure to have you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's so nice to meet you. Yeah, it's nice to be able to chat to you because I've been following you for a while after I sort of connected with Georgia through the Motherlode, Georgia fields, and then I saw that you were a guest on there. So I was like, oh, because I'm a musician. So I like to follow people that I can connect with in that way. So yeah. love watching you. You're playing the piano and singing the songs. Yeah, well, yeah. And it's amazing. What Georgia has set up with the mother lode. And it's like, extra special for me, because, um, I've actually known her for a really long time. We're at the same high school together. Yeah. And it's not like we've, you know, hung out throughout all the years, but we've actually known each other for ages and to just see what she's building there. That community for mother musicians. Yeah, amazing. It is. It's so it's so valuable. And it's one of those things that like, there is no rulebook of what to do. It's like you learn from each other and trip over on the way but then you sort of go, oh, I can learn from that. Or I can Yeah, take that on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you're, you're a musician, singer and a songwriter. When did you first become interested in music? I think in many ways, I was quite lucky. I have a very musical family. So my parents It's so funny, this is a story that I've only really recently realized is quite amazing, because when it's just your normal life, you don't really think about it. But when my mum was a stay at home mum for a long time, but you know, loved singing, and my dad worked, I think, a fairly uninspiring office job somewhere. And then when we were sort of when me my brothers were sort of like, early teen years. My father's whole office got retrenched. And so he was looking for other work. And I think it was, you know, a little bit disheartening. And then just on this sort of, like, it's sort of, I think it hit him and my mum at the same time, like, we love playing music together, we should do something with this. Oh, and they ended up like, for 1015 years, like, I think they really stopped doing it maybe five or six years ago. So maybe even longer. They actually built a business playing music together. So my dad would play guitar, my mom would sing. And I guess you would say they were like music therapists, they would go into a lot of aged care places, senior citizen places, maybe I'm not sure, maybe hospitals as well, I might be wrong about that. And they would sing for people, and they would and people would join in, and they would like do the songs that would you know, maybe trigger a lot of memories for older people. And so I grew up just thinking it was totally normal to make a living, playing music. That is awesome. Yeah. And when I say totally normal, like, it was tight, sometimes, you know, like, they'd have good weeks, and then then have not such good weeks in terms of, you know, financial, so, but yeah, like I just sort of learnt from an early age that you can play music and make a living from it, and also makes such a big difference in the world with that, I think that's the other thing that they were doing was it was so much more than being like, perfect, or technically brilliant. It was about like sharing a real gift with people. And so I sort of grew up with that idea. And then on top of that, I was really lucky that both of my brothers are quite musical. So we would often just jam together and play together. And then when I went off to high school, a lot of my friends were musical and musicians. And I don't know, I I feel almost like spoiled now that I've met other people who haven't had that experience and really had to fight to kind of play music, even in terms of like, sort of going against maybe what their families, you know, would like them to do and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, very lucky that musics just been around me, and I've been immersed in it. And if anything, I probably just came to it because there wasn't much else I could do. I'm just like, quite good at this. I'm not quite not very good at much else. So. Yeah, sort of how I'm sort of, yeah, found music. It was very organic. Yeah, that is such an awesome story. I love that so much. It was so normal for us that I thought nothing of it. And if anything, I just shrugged my shot I did. And it's only been in the last year or two. That's amazing. That's a really amazing and inspiring thing to see your parents go off and do. Yeah, and that thing to that, you know, in them. I'm not sure exactly how old they were, but just say, midlife they've gone, I'm gonna totally change my career, I'm gonna take this, maybe take a risk, you know, financially, it's like, let's do this, just do something that we love. And that is so inspiring is fine. Yeah, they would have been a fair bit older than I am now. And so to think that there's, I think sometimes as an artist, and maybe especially as a female artist, I'm not sure about that. Maybe I should talk to my male friends and see if they feel the same way that you can feel like time is running out. And that clock is ticking. And oh, shit. Um, you know, I'm turning 40 Soon, and I haven't done the things I wanted to do, or a bit of probably not the same thing when I was like, in my late 20s, about turning 30. And, actually, yeah, to sort of go up, I've got plenty of time. Yes. Sort of, like, try other things. And yeah, and get this stuff done that I want to get done. You know, it's really helped me not feel like there's this mad rush. Yeah, it's really, it's almost like an empowerment that you can take the pressure off yourself. And I can sort of relate this to the kids like my son's in high school, and they start sort of on their paths of what they're going to do when they leave school. And so I keep saying to him, like I was what was I foot nearly 40 When I finally found the job that I loved, you know, you don't have to know straight away, or they do they put so much pressure on these like 1617 year olds to make these, you know, really important decisions to pick a perfect subject and your whole life will depend on it. And I just, yeah, say the same thing to my son. I'm like, whatever. You just work, you know, just do whatever you like, you know, whatever you're doing at the time, try and do your best but it's not this sort of Yeah, it's not a life or death situation. That's it, isn't it? Time to explore the world and yourself. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? You actually have to get out in the world and see how you feel in the world. And absolutely, maybe what are the things you enjoy? Right, I'm gonna leave school and go to uni and I'm gonna drop and that's it your whole life Smackdown was like, that's just so unreasonable, unreasonable and like the stories you know, just like friend after friend after friend who went and started a uni course. And within a year had gone this is so not for me. So like, you know, there's yeah, there's just no rush. It's a really nice Yeah, absolutely. Gosh. Being exposed to the music with your parents, did you start playing particular instruments? At that point? What were you playing? Yeah. So again, when I was quite young, there was this. I just feel so lucky for these rich experiences that I totally took for granted as a child, but there was a woman in my neighborhood who was she played piano? Like, I think back in Dancehall, dancehalls, back in the day, and so she just like, as a very local little business, just all the little kids in the area would go to her house and learn the piano. And you'd get your lowly and you learn your scales, and you'd go through your books, but the thing about her that really set her apart is like she was, you know, I thought of her I think she was you know, quite, she wasn't old, she's still with us. So she's not like that, you know, she was quite a lot older than say, like my parents at the time. And she was so different to so many, like, sort of music teachers in that it didn't take her long to work out that my heart wasn't in all the technical stuff. And also that, you know, I like to sing. So from a really young age, she kind of worked that out. And she was like, Well, I'm going to teach you how to like play chords and accompany yourself, and I'm going to teach you how to improvise. And like, you know, we're not just going to play fair release. And the entertainer and I did do a bit of this wonderful piano teacher who like really picked up early that I wanted to learn that kind of stuff. Maybe even before I knew that, that's what I wanted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I've played the piano forever and, and have learnt piano in a way where I've been able to accompany myself to sing since I was practically a kid. And so that's always been a part from my voice. I'm a singer first, but piano would be my secondary instrument. And that's generally the instrument that I write with. And when I'm writing music, and then, you know, just in those sort of primary school and high school years, I dabbled in the flute. And I wasn't bad at it, but my heart wasn't in it. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. The guitar. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, there's always time. I love that. That story about your music teacher that that is such a gift for her to give you because so many music teachers, it's like theory. You know, like I, I, my experience was with teachers that basically you had to learn your scales yet to know what all the notes were called, and how long you held them for. And I just wanted to play stuff by ear. And it was like, really, like, my, my teacher wasn't as amazing as yours. But I think back now, like, I would have loved to have just learned how to accompany myself, that would have been amazing. Well, she was yeah, she was quite an amazing woman. And actually, a few years ago, I felt really compelled to reach out and thank her and I wrote her this letter, just like, Oh, my God, you're amazing. Thank you. And I got this beautiful letter back. And I think she'd be in her like late 80s by now. The funny thing is, though, when she was teaching me what I think she must have been quite brilliant. Because while she kind of adapted the lessons to suit me and my needs, she somehow was sneaking that theory. And I actually have got a fairly good, you know, theoretical foundation, but really kind of managed to do it in a way where it was helpful or making sense to the end. Yeah, relative to what you wanted to do with your music like, yeah, she's, yeah, she whatever she was, she was working her magic. That's for sure. What a gem of a woman honestly. That's honestly, we should all have a lady like that in our lights. Just be amazing. Marge Williams is her name. Good. Good on your Marge. Give her a shout out. I wish I had met Marge when I was when I was a little girl. That would have been amazing. Yeah. So the game All right. at the moment with your music is your music your life? That's what you do you. Yeah. So, in a roundabout way, I've managed to get to a point in my life where I can sort of comfortably say that I make my living as a musician. But like, realistically, that, Oh, quite a fair percentage of that living is coming from being like, like working in the teaching field, as well as performing and recording and all of those things. I'm really fortunate to have quite a good teaching job at a university here in Melbourne, where I teach mostly singing, like a one on one singing lessons to the students that come through. But I also help, you know, work with bands, and, you know, mentor some of that, you know, mentor the students through some of those processes and classes. And then on top of that, yeah, my, so, artistically, the thing that I'm most passionate about, and I'm always working towards, sometimes slowly, but is my own music that I write. And that I really, yeah, I pour a lot of myself into. And then I guess the other thing, and obviously, work has been quite quiet in the last couple of years due to COVID. But as a singer, like, as a vocalist, I can Yeah, I often work in that field, I guess for other people. So doing session work in studios for like, people that need a, you know, a vocal line on this particular track, or a harmony or a demo and, and working as a backing vocalist for other artists as well. So through or So like most, I think, not just me, I think like most artists, you generally you don't have like that sort of nine to five, steady job, you just you have your fingers in all of the pies, and you kind of slowly build whatever it is that you're building that way, which in some ways is kind of stressful, because you can't remember what do I do on Wednesday. And, you know, there can be dips financially, of course, especially when we're in COVID. But even before that, to be honest, but I also know I wasn't built for a nine to five job. So in many ways, it's thrilling to be doing a few different things. And I get quite excited when I'm looking in my diary and I'm like, Oh, I've been booked for that session next week cool, like different people different kinds of environments. So yeah, yeah. Without the teaching work It'd be impossible Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that you but you're still so involved in music like it's not like it doesn't probably doesn't feel like a real autonomous a real job because it is a real job but you know, you're you're really enjoying what you're doing. Absolutely. I there are things about teaching that can be quite draining and you know, because I put a lot of myself into it. But there are also like yeah, I'm still like I'm surrounded by music every day many of my students inspire me I work I have amazing peers so like other teachers that I work with they're all musicians so I'm sort of like spending time in that world still yeah work yeah sounds awesome yeah day and God fashion keep it to myself most days I struggle to this crew good. Kids my thing carefree was counting on. But it's a bit of an intro into your children. I came into what were you doing at the time when you had your children? Oh, goodness, okay, so I have, my son is almost 16. And my daughter is 11. And my son in particular came along in a very interesting time. I was studying music at university. So I went straight out of high school into a music course that I studied is like a jazz kind of improv course, which was interesting. And in that final semester, of the entire course, I discovered I was pregnant. And that was quite intense. Because I was trying to like, sort of start this music, career, whatever that is. The same time, I suddenly had this, like, human being that was like, gonna need my care. So I had him when I was 21. So nearly my, so my entire music career really has coincided with raising a child, which has been, which has had some real positives, and has also obviously presented quite a few challenges. Yeah, he's sort of been with me every step of the way. And, yeah, it's been. Yeah, overall, it's been a really great thing. And yeah, I guess the main, the main thing that I now know, looking back, not that I would change a thing, but I never really got those years prior to kids to build something up first. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you know, like my 20s. You know, for instance, I didn't spend my 20s being able to just say yes to every opportunity, or like, just be like, yes, we'd all go on that tour. See, everyone, I had to be from sort of day one, I never stopped, like, I always like, you know, I released an EP not long after he was born, which, kind of like, Oh, my God, how did I do that. However, I probably never had quite the capacity to take things as far as I would have liked. Because like, the child comes first. Like, that's the reality. And so like, my music always played, like a really close second to my number one priority, which was, you know, raising this beautiful boy. So. Yeah, that's, that's just how that's just how it has been for me, like music and parenting have always had to coexist. I don't remember ever. Yeah, obviously, like, I've got an amazing partner. We've been together for a long time. And so I've never had to do it all alone, which is great. But like just little things, like, I don't know what it's like to book a gig without also going, who's gonna watch the kids? I actually never had that experience. It's always been those two things happening at the same time. So yeah, it's a unique perspective, isn't it? It's a little different. Yeah, and I can definitely see how it would have its positives. It does. Yeah, there have definitely been positive. So the positive that I'm feeling now and the so like, you know, the positive place that I find myself in now, is I'm currently at a place with an 11 year old and an almost 16 year old who are pretty independent. And I now have this time and space and energy to be really going for it. And so where a lot of my friends who like have done a lot of their now maybe like they've got toddlers, or they've just had a baby. And so well, while a lot of my peers are probably like slowing down a little bit, which is so fine. They should, they've got kids that need that care. I'm at a place now where I'm really like, much more sort of time rich, and kind of really go for it. And the fact is, I think my music is better now than it was when I was 2122 23. So I could have you know, the energy and the time that I could have poured into my art back then I'm sure it would have been great. But actually, I think the work I'm making is better now with maturity. And now I have this energy also to kind of Yeah, kind of play with I guess. I think the other thing that helps sort of having children along pretty much from the beginning is you. You tend to I don't want to say you use your time well, because people who know me would know that I'm not great at that. But I guess like as in I'm a terrible planner, and I can, you know, procrastinate like anybody's business. But I guess the thing that I do know when you know if you've got to babysitter, and you need to be, you know, so you've aren't, hey, I've got a rehearsal. And I've asked someone to watch the kids till you know, this time, you don't just wander into that rehearsal and blah, blah, blah and wait, like, so you have shorter pockets of time. And so you bloody well use them properly. And so what I found is like, yeah, like, so? Yeah, you it's almost like you get these pockets of time, you don't have just like this rich expanse, expensive time just before you when you can do whatever you want. And slowly, you know, kind of work on songwriting, or rehearsal or recording session, like, sometimes your time is limited, generally, always, to be honest. And as a result, you get quite good at working pretty fast. If I'm honest. Like, yeah, I'm pretty good at getting in and out of the studio, like, position work. And I reckon, part of that has just been through experience where I'm like, Well, I've got to leave it midday. So I think I've got that skill where I can be a little bit like, when I really have to focus on time, creatively, I can kind of just get it done. Same with songwriting, like I really, I mean, I don't, I'm not a prolific songwriter, like, I don't write heaps. But I do feel like when I'm like, Okay, I've got this time, I've got this energy and like, say, when the kids were younger, you know, the kids are occupied, or away or whatever, and I've got these few hours, I would generally walk out of there with a song or two, because it was like, I have to, really, ya know, so that kind of time pressure can work. to your advantage. Also, there's the flip side to that, where the time pressure can be a massive disadvantage in terms of just not having the space and the time that you would want to give to your art. Yeah, so there's like the payoff of that as well. But I think yeah, really fast. Yeah, yeah. It's it's instilled those skills in you and then you can you can take that through the rest of your life really. Because you just want to be. conscious. You mentioned because you had your son, like, you've never known your career without your son. What was that like then for you being in that world with other musicians, other women who weren't mums yet? Was that how did that feel for you being in that environment? Yeah. So there were, again, musicians, like, especially female musicians, are just beautiful people. And so while I was, for a long time, the only one in my peer group with a child, you know, I used to, like I'm thinking back two years ago, like a long time ago, when he was quite little. And I was actually in this singing group with three other singers. And one of them has gone on to just be absolutely amazing. I'm sure you've heard of it. Ainsley wills. She's like, the best. Anyway, and I remember, I would just take the baby to rehearsals, and they were so lovely. They would like hold him that because it was so cute. Get a lot of like that kind of, oh, we'll hold him and we'll look after him and using that. And so I remember back in the day, actually having a lot of support in the moment, like the other musicians were absolutely amazing. I had an I had a band at the time, and we would rehearse weekly and sometimes I just have to bring, you know, my top baby or toddler with me, and you know, and actually everyone else in that band would dudes. Yeah, some of them were my brothers. So they were like uncles to the to the baby. But you know, our guitarist wasn't and I don't know, he could have just been like, this is crap. I'm, you know, I didn't sign up to kind of come to the studio and keep climbing all over my face, so generous and so kind about it. And so musicians in general, were pretty lovely, and pretty welcoming. I think where it became a challenge was more than just the industry wasn't set up for it. So while individuals within the industry were like, so beautiful, so kind, really found Yeah, the whole situation, I'm sure they were all a bit like, Oh my God, but you know, they were like, is like, our friends got a baby. It's so weird, but um, yeah, everyone was lovely. But it was more when it came to things like geeks and knights and just being like, we can't bring him here, you know, it's dirty, there's no way to breastfeed or change a nappy. You know, I really found that within Melbourne, like, where I live, I was very active in the music scene, and, you know, still am. But if I've never really felt I had the capacity. I know, some parents do. And I'm just like, wow, they're amazing, but I never really felt like I had the capacity to tour. So I've never really even even now like, have never really too much. Or like, sort of been able to spread further than that, because I just didn't feel like there was much space or capacity there to like, take him with me, or, you know, the alternative, I guess would be to leave him for long stretches of time, which again, like, I've thrown no shade on parents who can do that. Like it's just each to their own. Just with, I guess, my parenting style and his personality and needs. That actually didn't feel like an option either. Where I could sort of almost be like, Alright, you're staying at Nando's for two weeks, I'm off. That was just, that was just not a way that we could do things for him. So yeah, I don't know if that answers your question. But like, no, yeah, other women and like my peers, my friends. They were so lovely. It was actually divine, like the way they kind of embraced this little baby and toddler who was sometimes at rehearsals, and sometimes it gigs. And, you know, even though none of them had kids, so they'll probably all a bit like, I don't know what to do, but they would hold him or Yeah, you know. But it was more yet the industry as a general kind of beast, I guess. Yeah, my, my, my place there felt a little. I don't know, where Be quiet anymore. Yeah. I'm going off track slightly. But do you think that is because it's mainly a male dominated industry? Or has been in the past? Yeah, I think so. Totally. And I think it's changing. And I think that's really exciting. Yeah, like men, you know, historically, can have kids, and still go off and do their own thing, you know. And, yeah, I think that's definitely, you know, how the world works, too. This is not just the music scene, it's the patriarchy and action. But I do feel like it's changing, I just think the changes are slow. And I think it's different. Now I see friends who sort of musician friends with babies now. And I think that the capacity that they have, and the understanding that they have from other people, I think, is better than probably I had at the time. Also, I've gotta remember, I was very young, I wasn't hugely educated. And so I probably didn't have the capacity personally to like, advocate for things that maybe I would now as a 37 year old woman, like, hey, use rehearsal space, I'm going to have to bring my child wet, you know, like, I'm gonna have to feed him, what are you going to do to help me like, you person to begin with, and especially when I was 21, and probably much more overwhelmed than I allowed myself to kind of think I was, I wasn't gonna ask that I was just gonna, like, yeah. Or, or, or see that as an opportunity that I couldn't have or I don't know, feed him in the car, or, you know, so I think sometimes, you know, having a little bit more, you know, a few more years behind you, and just a bit more confidence. I've advocated for myself a little bit more and being a bit more assertive, but I think the industry is changing. Like, there are so many more women speaking up in the industry, about and not just about motherhood, but just about sexism in general. And just small things like, you know, there are more I'm seeing more females working in manager, you know, like artist manager roles who are female, so they're just gonna have a, I'm sure, just more empathy for the say, their female clients around some of this stuff. I'm seeing more female sound engineers and producers, and I think that is really, really important. publicists did just seem to be a whole bunch of dudes back in the day. Doing that stuff. Yeah, yeah, maybe it's changing but I just think like anything in life changes are slow. So especially when you're trying to change Something that's been endemic since the beginning of time, but seems like we're looking at like this tiny little kind of music industry. I don't know, from my perspective in Melbourne even like, yeah, yeah, that's it. We're talking about an issue that is like, just the way humanity has been built for a very long time. So, yeah, yeah, I can see. Yeah, but I think more more and more women, a lot of performers who have children, I guess it may be being like, if I'm maybe social media, I think social media can be a bit. Yeah, um, but I think sometimes social media might be great in that way that they might post like, they're on tour, but you can see the kid in the backseat of the car, or, you know, I don't know. So maybe, maybe like, you know, female artists sharing their experiences of like, motherhood and the road or motherhood and recording or just motherhood in any sort of arts practice. Just makes it again, it just normalizes it. That's it, isn't it? And it makes it sound achievable for yourself. Because like you said, as a 21 year old, though, that that wasn't in you at that stage. But maybe if social media had been around, or if you had seen someone do it, you would have thought hang on a sec. That's, that is acceptable. I'm gonna have a crack at this sort of, sort of mentality. Yeah, yeah, just seeing some art. Okay. There are a few other artists, you know, doing this as well, because yeah, I definitely felt while everyone was so kind, you know, my other musician, friends, I think, you know, when you're in something, it's very hard to really know how you feel. Because I know when you've just had a baby, sometimes you're in survival mode to a certain extent you just like, head down doing what you got to do. And so I think now that sort of time has passed, I can be a bit more reflective. And I think I was, I think there was still a sense, even though no one overtly excluded me, ever. I do think I felt very alone. Because I didn't have other peers really having that same experience. And then the few people I would look up to and like, oh, wow, that person is a mother and a singer, songwriter, too. They wouldn't maybe I still felt alone in that a little because maybe they'd had their kids a bit later. And so they still had maybe a bit more of an established Korea. Look up to them. Okay, I'll just do what they do. And then I just almost find that really disheartening. Almost more so because I'm like, they're like, doing it all like, and they've got kids and I'm not doing it all. Yeah, so yeah, it was a bit lonely at times. Buried, you came alone with your shop, silent, said, get out, get in, just get to your beauty, your voice your take on a magic. I want to ask you about when you said before, that you you did your AP, when your son was young? And you said I don't know how I did it. Yeah. How did you actually do it? Was he? Is he coming with you a lot? Yeah. Like, how to physically manage it. The first thing to know about my son and my daughter. And it is what it is like. And again, like when it comes to parenting and how we do it. I just have no, I just people do what they've got to do. Like, I just do not care how other people like feed their kids sleep their kids like you do what you got to do. For me, personally, neither of my kids. So it wasn't because like of my own belief system around feeding, but neither of my kids would take a bottle. So the only way they were fed was via me for you know, 18 months, both of them my daughter a bit longer. So they were breastfed, which just meant they couldn't not be with me for long. So the hours so how did I do that EP, I think I had started recording it before he was born. Which helped so I think a lot of the work had been done. And then I think I did little short recording sessions in around feeds Due to finish off some of the vocal stuff, and then when it came time, I guess to like launching it, you know, like playing it playing like some shows and try to build up a bit of publicity around it, which again, like things have changed a bit, I probably would now, looking back, hire a publicist, which I didn't at the time, so it was just a lot of email, beat magazine, and whatever else it was. I just sort of it was just in snatched moments. i Yeah. And I don't know if that's the most sustainable way to do it. But I don't know any other way. I could have done it. Late nights when the babies are finally asleep. That was often when I would sit on the computer and email out my, you know, although Admony type parts of music rehearsals were Yeah, like, he'd be there. And just thankfully, my musician friends were cool with that. Yeah, the actual launch. I remember, I remember the gig, it was a great gig. It was really, you know, everyone came it was, I was so blessed. You know, like, it was a really beautiful moment. And yeah, we brought him. And so yeah, it was sort of this bar. I'm looking back, nothing was even allowed in there. I don't know. But you know, like a band room and a bar. And it was really crowded. And, you know, it was a great show. And yeah, just with this, I think by then you might have been walking, you know, like, sort of toddler age, just sort of this little toddler near the front of the stage. And it was stressful, because like, I think what we sort of had arranged was like, he'll come but people, they're sort of watching him like my mom or whatever. But no one quite watches your child the way you would. So I remember just being on stage and just being like someone grabbing plays, you know, like, he was too close. But like not like just all like I'm literally performed. Internally, almost just yelling at people like, move him grab him. He's too close to that, or whatever it was. Yeah. Looking back. That's not a way to perform. Hey, but yeah, so in hindsight, I probably would have just booked a babysitter and not had him there. at them, you know, in the moment, it felt like the right thing to do to have him there with us. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I think snatches of time is probably the best way to describe, especially those early days when you know, you're fairly sleep deprived, or, you know, they're very kids are very young. Yeah. Like parenting is like a lifelong journey. Like you're never not a parent, you're always on. But those early years, that, like the time that is required of you is very demanding. Yeah, that's it, that changes when they get older, which is really great. And I'm sort of, I think, you know, enjoying the benefits of that now. But also, they become more complex human beings. So I find it emotionally more challenging now. Yeah. But I am getting sleep. And I go somewhere during the day, and my son, gets himself to school, gets himself home, if he wants to go out on the weekend, like, we're at that stage where I'm just like, Oh, my goodness, like so independent. It's brilliant. I love it. And I'm so happy for him because he's obviously enjoying that independence. And yeah, when you think back to just like, oh, you couldn't leave me for more than two hours? Because it is so nice to be in that space. But yeah, then you I don't know. Because you you said you've got a 14 year old that I worry one out or I'm not emotionally like, oh, yeah, it's a whole different ballgame. Isn't it? Like it's? Yeah, like, yeah, the emotionally draining is a good way of describing it. Because you're, yeah, you're just you're trying to solve problems for him. I help him through things and issues with mental health. And yes, yes. This Yeah. Like you become a psychologist. And yeah, my sister in law, Nicole said recently because her kids are sort of my age, but we have nephews and nieces. Who are that younger age, that sort of baby toddler. And yeah, like, she just sort of commented like in a family thread recently, like, Oh, those beautiful days. I miss them. Like, yeah, they were demanding, but they weren't complex. Like, Oh, I feel every word of that. Yeah. So it's a different type of energy that you're pouring into your children, but you never stop. And I'm sure when they're 20 3040. Like, you'll That's it, isn't it? Yeah. It'll be it'll be something it'll be different again. It'll be Yeah, another thing. seems insane to say this, but then maybe there'll be grandkids and you're like, yeah, what's my role here? But I'm gonna use to believe that I'm still way too young to even consider that. So. Yes, I'm sorry about that. Yeah, I'll come back to you in like 30 is time when you're doing the grandmother artist. thing. That's awesome. Well, I won't have to worry about one of my kids, because my eldest has told me that he's never having children because it's just too hard. He's seen what we were going through. He's living with a six year old. So he's like, I'm not having kids. We're modeling like, how hard it is. Yeah. Yeah.Because you're gonna want to tow back to? So one of the questions I asked my mums is about before you had kids, what was your influences for your art? And then after you have kids? So asking you this is going to be a little bit different? Because I mean, I'm sure you're going to have some, you know, obviously, to music when you're a child, but in terms of what's influenced you, have you noticed that that has changed? Or how you look at your music? Or I don't know what what sort of changes has your own creativity gone through? As you became a mom? Yeah, I think I think the thing? That's a great question. Like, musically, my influences were pretty broad growing up, and I don't think that's changed. You know, like, one day, all I want to do is listen to Abba. And then the next thing I just want to listen to, like, you know, I actually listened to a lot of classical and choral music, and I don't make that music. But it's often what inspires me the harmony in that is so rich, I love harmony. Actually, that's like probably a big part of what I'm drawn to as a musician is harmony and melody. And so I listen to a lot of music that feels quite dense and rich in that way. As I said before, like before my son came along, I was training more in that sort of jazz wealth, and so was playing quite a lot of jazz music. And a lot of those sort of early jazz singers really inspired me in terms of their vocal sound. So like I absolutely I do absolutely love Ella Fitzgerald and Sarah Vaughan and Billie Holiday. huge Beatles fan of course. Yes. My parents pretty much raised me on on the Beatles. And again, their harmony always three. In terms of the Yeah, what inspires me now I think the one thing I feel like my 20s were a little different, right? So a lot of music that's often about like, heartbreak and breaking up, or will we or won't we like just for whatever reason, like I kind of, I found my partner quite young. And we had quite a different experience, like in our 20s. And so I guess sometimes that music even I can really love it. It's not necessarily themes that I'm super drawn to. I guess I'm drawn to themes, like Yeah, so I really loved clear that Bowditch I've never known whether it's Bowditch about it, by the way, but you know what I mean? Yes, I do know, album that came up, actually, when my son was quite little. That was the whole theme was grief. Yeah, I, that had a huge impact on me, because I was like, Oh, you can write a whole album on grief. Like, you don't have to write a whole album on like, you broke up with me, and I'm gonna break up with you. And now we're back together. Because I guess a lot of like, songs in the popular culture are still like, some version of a love song. Yet she wrote this incredible indie pop album on grief. So do you remember what the name of that album was? I do now it was what was left. So it was. That's funny that I just said it. Yes. So she made the album in 2005. And my son was born 2006. So I really remember listening to that. I don't even remember that I was stuck in a lot of grief at the time. But it was more like there were growing up themes. You know, there were real life themes. And they were themes that I kind of that really resonated with me so that that album actually had a huge impact because it showed me that there were other things I could write about. And I could write about things that were really real to me. You know, one of the songs that is on my new album that is still you know, in we're in the process of making and releasing is actually just all without boundaries, I would not have written a song about boundaries when I was 18. Because it's not very sexy at all. I really like it. You know, like, that stuff's important to me. Yes. So, so that album had huge impacts and a huge impact on me. from more of a lyrical perspective, yeah. And then like, musically, my tastes have just never really changed because they were always broad to begin with. And they remain really broad. So I listened to a lot of music that I know I'll never make, like I listen to a lot of neo soul. I'm probably not going to make me I mean, I love it. You know, Jill Scott is one of my favorite singers. And I also just know straight up that I will never sound anything like Jill Scott or make me look like us. But I still love absolutely love her. So I don't. Yeah, don't necessarily always listen to a lot of music that's similar to the music I make. But I don't know, I think that can really make help you be really well rounded to when you're really open to all sorts of styles. And, yeah, I'm so sorry. That's my dog. Oh, hey, puppy. Sorry. I had my cat in here before and she's got a little bell on a collar. And I was like, Don't scratch your head. It's actually not much of a back and normally I think maybe another dog walk by what sort of dog is he? He's a stuffy cross. We don't know what we use in rescue dog. Yeah, and he's one my heart big. Heart. Yeah, he's funny. Yesterday, I interviewed a lady and she had a stuffy as well. Oh, really? And it my son's been on this bandwagon that he wants to get a stuffy and I was like maybe the universe is telling me something. While banjo is a real sweetheart. Yeah, like he was pretty full on when we got him because he was a rescue and hadn't. Yeah, he we pretty much were starting from scratch with him. Yeah, yeah, he's just Yeah, cuddly and but anyway, I think he's still packing now. Good job AJ. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom. I was a new member too. Yeah, when you saying before about influences, but they're not necessarily what you put in your music. I appreciate the Beatles so much because of what they've allowed me to understand about how you can present your music. Like, you can do whatever the hell you want. Like, honestly, I play this. And like if you want to, like play, record your guitar solo, and then play it backwards. You can do that. And then you can. But the thing that got me was like, changes of tempo within songs and different elements that go together to make the same song but it's like you're just grabbing stuff from everywhere. And I was just like, I don't have I had a poster on my wall. I've got my Abbott poster up there. And I did have one but it failed. Me Oh my God, and harmonies, harmonies just a massive thing that I love so much. Yeah, it's just like, can just be shown what's like, same thing with your example. With clear it's like, you can write an album on whatever you'd like. Like, I call it the Taylor Swift music like the we broke up and we're getting back together. And then you didn't call me about you know, all this, which I see is really frivolous now, because I'm, you know, happily married and have lots of, you know, security about my life. But I think you know, I can understand where that fits in. But yeah, there's just so much depth to stuff and a singer songwriter that I really admire. Jen lash, I'm not sure if you've heard of Jen. She's a South Australian artist. And look her up. I think you'd really like her music. She's, and she's been a guest on my podcast, and I kind of see her as a bit of a mentor. I don't know if she knows that. Hi. All my mentors have no idea that they might Yes. She inspired me to be able to write songs about really difficult subjects, but make them really listening. So the musical in her words, the musical treatment that she gives that song allows it to be like received by people sort of thing. And about a topic that's very jarring. Yeah, maybe maybe the music can be jarring, too. But maybe you're gonna let more people in if allows that. Yeah. And so yeah, she really inspired me With a song that she wrote about postnatal depression called called Wolf, and when I heard I saw she sang it live. She came down here as part of a sort of a was called Palomino nights at the wall shed it was in this old watershed down in Glencoe. And she performed in this space and when I heard that song, I just went, oh my god, like it was like someone had slapped me in the face and gone. Yeah, you can do stuff about anything. Yeah, so she's really inspired me. Jen lash. Okay. Look her up. Jen's amazing. I love Jen so much. And she's listened to her episode, because she's got such an amazing way of speaking the way she articulates things. She's just such a wordsmith like, Ah, just love. I will definitely listen. Yeah. Yeah, just knowing that you can write about anything, I think was really? Yeah, that's definitely what that clear album did for me. And then you've got that album. She bought out years later, which was the winter I chose happiness, where the theme was almost about this kind of like, so she done his album about grief. And then years later, she did this album. But it wasn't that frivolous happiness. It was, like real choice. Like it was like an oyster kind of. And so again, that another album she might use later also had huge impacts on me like, oh, you can write about happiness without being cheesy. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So yeah, just, yeah. How good is music? So lucky? This? Pretty much you will never hear it all, you know? Yeah. Yeah. People always, actually, because I work with students. They're often like, oh, have you heard blah, blah, blah. And I'll be someone a bit younger. So someone I haven't heard of. And, you know, my mind is just continually blown. Yeah. Let's see. I go through phases, like where I deliberately don't listen to current music, because I want to stay in the past in some way. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want to admit that I don't know what's happening right now in music. Like I just I like to know, I like to be able to sing along and I know what's coming. But then sometimes I think I'm missing out on so much, if I don't you know it, because there's so much amazing stuff being done. Some of it's a lot of crap. But there is a lot of crap. There is a lot of crap. And I think therefore we sort of go, it's all crap. Yeah, you can kind of like wade through the crap. There is also just some amazing. Yeah, there's sort of amazing music being made at the moment. But it's also not the music that's necessarily in the top 20. So yeah, that's it is more. Yeah. And I think over the years, I've become a lot. Obviously, as you get older, you understand things, you understand how things work, and the thought the whole thing about the NSA pop, you know, in inverted commas, because it's not necessarily I don't know, any music can be popular, but I'm talking about in a commercial sense. Yeah, it is really is just a big business. You know, it's just about producers, people, finding people, people making money off those people and, and the person themselves becomes the product. And yeah, always freaks me out a bit, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've come, I've come quite jaded of that. And, and not wanting to care. Like, I know, like, commercial radio is literally commercial radio. Like, it's just people, they pay the money to have the songs on. And so I've had a bit of a wake up call, like, for many years, it's like, I just want to be, I want to be on the radio, I want my songs on the radio. And then when I understood it, I was like, no, actually, I want my songs on community radio, because that's where the relationships are. And that's where your people care about the songs they're playing. They have a choice about the songs they're playing, you know? Yeah, so that yeah, no, that's it. Yeah, you're so right. Like, I mean, yeah. Also, I think just the way music and how people listen to music is changing. So I'm not even sure anymore, that being getting on the radio isn't necessarily the golden ones. Still space for it. And especially think there's space for community radio, like here in Melbourne, we've got like PBS and triple out there, and they're huge stations, and they're amazing. And you know, to be on one of those stations. I think it's fantastic. But yeah, I don't know, you know, there are so many ways people can access music now that, you know, yeah, I don't know, it's probably one of many ways you can reach an audience, but maybe not sort of the only way. Yeah, it used to feel Yeah, absolutely. Quite, sort of, unless you were on the radio. It was like no one ever heard. You know, you can pay people to put your music on things and they were know, yeah, totally. But I mean, it's the world, isn't it? Yeah. Do you very expensive to be an independent musician, you know? Yeah, that'sthe thing. Isn't it no one tapped me on the shoulder and goes, Hi, here's heap of money to record. Yeah, women? Oh, no, I'll do this and that for you. It's very parenting into the mix. I think it's, and I think that's part of the challenge is, I really believe in my music, I really do. I really think it's pretty good. You know, like, I'm not saying I'm the best out there or anything like that. But I know I can sing. I know I can write I know, I'm making a pretty good record. But when my confidence starts to fall down big time is actually when I start realizing like the costs in like releasing it and releasing it. Well. You know, whether it's paying a publicist or making a video or whatever, yeah. And then when you have children in the mix, it can be really hard to justify those costs when, you know, you've got to buy school uniforms, and CDs in classes and soccer, you know, like, it can seem really self indulgent, that you're really selfish. Yeah. So it's so that's probably where I'm finding myself at the moment a bit like, the confidence in the music is there again, which is so nice, you know? Because obviously, we have times where it's not. Yeah, but it's that kind of this is, this is such an endeavor to embark on. And how can I justify I can totally appreciate that. Like my husband said to me, when I print because I like to print say days and albums, because I think people's people still like to put things in means. I found what I when I used to play a lot of folk festivals, and I found that the seat Yeah, you still needed CDs. So like, yeah, so obviously, they're not gone. Yeah, I don't think they're gone. For them to be gone. Yeah, people are also buying finally again. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. People like a tangible thing, man. Yeah. And I think that the amount of effort that I end the people I'm, like, work with to do my artwork. I think that it deserves a bigger, you know, platform than just a tiny little square on the iPhone or whatever. You know, the actual your actual artwork. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, my husband is like, have you worked here? How many? So I should preface this, my husband's a financial planner, right? We can be really handy are really annoying. We could not be different worlds, honestly. So yeah, it's like, how many CDs do you have to sell to be able to make your money back? I'm just like, I am not thinking about this. I'm thinking about creating my music and giving it to the world. That is, I know, thinking about and I remember like me with my like pea size, math brain. first EP and sort of trying to do the maths and in the arm, like I can't do the bloody maths, I'm just going to do it like, yeah. And, you know, probably to be honest, years later, having a few boxes of CDs still stashed under a bit. Think it's the same for everybody. It's always a boxer CD so. Now I guess that this topic is sort of leading into something that I love to talk to moms about. And it sounds nasty when I say I love to talk to you about your mom guilt. But I find it such a fascinating topic. Yeah, we put ourselves aside like literally what we've just been talking about, like, we feel like we have to justify ourselves because you know, that money could be paid for the school fees, or could be for the groceries, you know, how how do you sort of approach that mom guilt thing? First of all, for years, I really resisted the term. And even with credit, I'd be like, Well, I don't have no guilt. Good on me. I don't believe in it. It's bullshit, and I don't have it. And then in the last few years, like of course I have, I experienced guilt as a human being and part of that is around my mothering. So yes, technically, I experienced mother guilt. I experience it often around time. So even though my kids are a lot older, my daughter in particular, she really misses me when I do things. And in many ways that's very sweet. And in other ways, it's really had, um, I can be like, you know, spending a fair amount of time and energy on my art, which I think is really fair, because I also give a lot of energy to other people. And she'll actually like, you know, if I'm, I don't know, maybe I was at the studio all day and all night and didn't get home like, and I try my best to like, you know, communicate that in advance that maybe once or twice where like, because they're not home like, you know Dad's home. So it's not like they're home alone. But that can be a real, like, she can be really upset with me that the next day was just like, I didn't know, I didn't know you would be out too late and well, and I feel really bad around that stuff. So I'm trying to get trying to get better at like, not changing what I do, because I think it's really reasonable that I'm sometimes busy doing stuff that almost I think I could, yeah, so I can experience guilt around that, kind of like the time away that it can be. And like I said before, I don't even know if it's guilt, but it's maybe like the justification around like, the financial side of things. Like I think the reality is, like, we sort of, we grew up in a world where the idea of being a musician, so 2025 years ago, it was like, Well, you just get good, and then you meet the right people, and then you get signed to a contract, and they'll give you lots of money, and you'll make records, and actually realizing that happens to such a small percentage of including musicians who we would consider to be quite big and successful. Like, they're still doing it in a very different way, I have friends who I would consider like, on paper to be much more successful than I am as musicians, and they're still working other jobs or, you know, looking for funding for certain things, you know, so it's a very, most of us not doing it that way. And the reality that I'm sort of facing at the moment, really, with this album that I'm making is that it's costing quite a bit to make. So not only am I not making money, at the moment, I'm actually spending money to make my own art, that's not a job. It's not like it's when you think about what a job, you go to work, and you get paid. I'm going I'm I'm doing a lot of work. And also forking out money. So so the whole kind of, what am I actually doing? And why am I doing it can kind of creep in sometimes because it's not if you're if you know, I call it work, I call it like, you know, I'm an artist, and I'm working and I'm this is my project. But if I'm really honest, right now, it's sort of not work. It's, it's not bringing in, it's not bringing home the bacon. So I think the guilt can then arise when because we live in a capitalist society, where we value money. So I find it much easier, even now, even after all these years, it's much easier for me emotionally, to ask, for instance, for someone to babysit my kids, because I'm teaching because teaching brings home money. And so there's like, this is the most important thing in the world that we all need to do, we all need to make money, because that's the society we live in. And I need to go and make that money. So I feel quite justified. There's that word again, in getting help with the kids because we've got to make that money. But then I really can struggle with the same kind of asking for help or reprioritizing things to say, like make this record because it's not bringing in the money. And I think that comes down to Yeah, like we live in a society that still doesn't value things. Paying. So I trying to really, really kind of remind myself that this is an important expression of who I am. And that's why I have to give it time, and maybe that's why I even have to give up. You know, money. Because, yeah, it's I don't know, I hate talking about money, it makes everyone feel really uncomfortable. But I think it's also really important. It's a huge part of it can be a very big barrier to making art. And, yeah, when you have a family, it can be a barrier that you put on yourself because it just doesn't feel kind of right. But I'm really sort of trying to lean into the feeling that I have that for me at the moment. It is right and it is okay. But yeah, so I think it's really interesting, I think, yeah, how what we value in this society still often comes down to like, how much money you make from it. But why not just think of all the great artists you know, like, I mean, it's such a it's such a cliched example. that Van Gogh, you know, didn't make any money and we all now know that he's just the most brilliant artist. So just trying to like remember that this art is important and to try and not feel that guilt, whether it's the financial guilt or the time away guilt, which is a big one that I tend to feel. Well, the other the other guilt that I can sometimes feel is when I'm, and I'm sure a lot of parents might relate to this is when I really go for it, like I'm diving into a really creative space, whether it's just like, oh my god, like these songs are just churning within me or like I've booked out a few days in the studio, I'm just going for it, I'm the the first thing to kind of fall apart is just all the shit at home like dishes, washing, yep, eating healthy food. And again, I think that's a very sexy thing to talk about, like it's pretty boring and unglamorous. But part of our job as parents, I guess, is to kind of keep on top of some of that stuff. And I'm very, very aware that I have a partner who does more than 50% of that stuff. So I really can't complain. Especially, you know, I speak to a lot of females with male partners and, and find out that even though it's 2022, they still seem to seem to take on a huge percentage of that, and I know that I actually don't so I'm very, very fortunate. However, yeah, I can still feel like when I'm really kind of diving into some artistic spaces, mentally or emotionally, the house just turns to absolute shit. And, and that can actually bring up a bit of guilt for me too. Like, well, we're eating takeaway again, because I don't have time to cook because I've written five songs. Yeah. Yeah, so that's just another aspect of mom guilt that I definitely feel and I try to be okay with. exists, and we just have to, like, kind of know that it exists and acknowledge it. Like, I'm feeling guilty right now. Why is that reasonable? Am I being too hard on myself? Actually, it's, it's really fine that I've done those things, and it's fine. And then, you know, the, the other thing we've got to remember is occasionally guilt is healthy, and it is telling us something. Yeah, maybe I'm feeling mom guilt, because I actually haven't spoken to my kids for days. And I need to fix that, you know, like, so actually, like, might Yeah, I just try to be aware of how I feel, and then kind of sit with it, and then work through whether it's like, you know, a feeling that I need to kind of listen to or a feeling that I can sort of go that that's just like your kind of inner critic getting pretty loud in your head. Yeah, it can really your inner critic has one or two important things to say as well. So just knowing you is unhealthy, and when it might actually be just telling you something that you better like, come on. Yeah, no, that is the fourth time this week. They've beaten junk. So maybe it's really important tomorrow to prioritize some vegetables. You know what I mean? Like, so? Absolutely. I think yeah, I think you're right, I think you can definitely serve a purpose. It's definitely not a place. Yeah. But then when it turns into this, and I, whenever I say, ma'am, you I do the air quotes, because I feel like it's just the term has been constructed by a new social media hashtag, you know, it's this theme. This this plan, and, and that's why I hate saying it, but I feel like it's when I say, Do you feel guilty? That sounds really creepy. You know? You're not really, I think I would love to live in a world where the term mum guilt is just not a thing. And if we're gonna have anything, it's parent guilt. And I don't even think parent guilt should be a thing, but at least that crosses genders and roles, you know, like, why, for instance, because I'm a woman should I feel really bad about, you know, the dishes piling up and you know, an unhealthy dinner. If, like, you know, a male parent really doesn't. Now I'm not saying they don't. And I'm not saying it's that simple. But yeah, like, what is it about? Like, why have we been conditioned to kind of carry that burden or that guilt? Yeah, so yeah, if we, if we have to feel guilty. Can we all please feel guilty together? It's just on the women. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, we'll see. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? over last year, I did a couple of Father's Day episodes, especially ones where I chatted to dads about and it's it's a different kind of guilt. Yeah, they certainly feel it. But just, I think they're not expected to feel I think that's the difference. We're the ones who are supposed to wear it. Yeah, yeah, totally. And even like, I'm, like I said before, like, we've sort of really set our lives up, in a way, you know, in our family where I guess we don't necessarily play those traditional gender roles. Like, at the moment, I work more than my husband, like an extra day, he does all the washing, because I'm really bad at it. I don't know, he's actually much better at like remembering the admin sort of stuff around, you know, our that notice needs to be handed in. And we've got to pay that, you know, I'm pretty bad at all of that. So even though I live in a relationship that has really kind of, we've really intentionally tried to not just play those roles that can fall on you, because you are male, or female or whatever. Even within that year, I think I experienced more of the emotional kind of guilt. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'll ask him and find out that. Maybe, yeah, maybe. So even if within your kind of nucleus family, you've got something really going on. That's pretty kind of countercultural, or whatever. We still are in a society that puts pressure on women and mothers to do it all and be at all. Yeah. And so yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. I'm not feeling guilty about the parenting and I'm really focusing on the parenting and, you know, doing great there, then I sort of start to feel a bit guilty about, oh, I'm not really doing any art or singing. So like, it's a little. A little sometimes that's just a load of crap. Whoever said that. He was the first person that said that should just because it mean, you can't you can, I heard someone say you can do it all. But you can't do it all at the same time. You know, like you go through phases in your life where, you know, your children are young. So you're focusing on your children, then you do your art, like, you can't, you can't do it all, you physically cannot do it all and also, mentally and in your heart. You can't do it all because you're torn all over the place. You know, totally. I also think I think just the way my brain works is I'm not very good at multitasking. So I think those people like I'm really good at like, diving in deep. So if I'm so I'm writing today, I'm probably just long writing. And if I'm just like, all in with like, hey, it's my day off, and I'm going to clean the house and I'm going to cook a really nice dinner and I'm going to pick my daughter up from school and we're going to go out for a milkshake, then I'm going to do that really, really well to not very good at trying to do both of those things at once. Yeah, I've always said yeah, you can do it all if you want to do it all pretty badly. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, you spread yourself so thin that nothing gets done. I don't wanna say well, but to the way that you probably want it to be done. You know? Yeah. Nice myth, isn't it? It's an urban myth. So going back to your your music and your identity, how you see yourself as a mother and as a musician and an artist, is it really important to you that your children's see, and I don't want to say I'm putting it in quotes, again, that you're just a mom, because you're never just a mom, that you are contributing to the world. Your your voice is being heard what you're saying is a value. Is that something that is important to you? Yeah, I think it's extremely important to me, both of my children in very different ways, obviously, showing to me that they're very creative people. And so I we really want to nurture that in them. Like my son is an amazing writer, like really incredible writer. My daughter is a natural dancer. And actually, funnily enough, I think she's also a really good singer, too. I have to like, listen out when she doesn't know I'm hearing it. Because I'm a singer. Yeah, there's some stuff there that we'll probably have to unpack that one day because yeah, she's a really great singer. When she was really little, I'd hear her in her room, listening to music, but harmonizing Oh, what? Oh, okay. Um, but she's pretty. She's done it a bit in the past in the last few years, like, if I'm like, Hey, John is seeing this, she's actually pretty reluctant. And that's fine. Like, I'm so not gonna push that. But I think she does have some natural talent there. Anyway, they're both really creative. And I think that's so beautiful. And so I would hate to be kind of creating an environment where they don't see that that's a really normal thing that you would want to foster their dad to. He's very creative. He he like, he wouldn't call himself a professional musician, but he loves music, and he plays in the past. He hasn't done it for a while, but he used to do like, some street art. He's always building things, you know, I'll say something like, oh, we need a box to plant some daffodils in and literally the next day. He's just found some wood and made a box. So and yes, he's a good visual artist. So pink growing up. I hope seeing that art is something that nourishes you. And, and yeah, I hope I hope I'm not I hope I'm modeling to them that I really love music, I guess the one worry I have is that they might see all the stress behind it. Yeah, I think they Yeah, so I know, it's really important to me that they know that creativity in whatever way or shape, you know, like, it doesn't have to be music. But creativity is something to be that we should honor and chat and spend time on. And that doesn't have to make you money. And if you make your living, you know, my son grows up one day to be a writer, my daughter grows up Monday to be a dancer. Wow, how amazing. But that's not even what I mean. It's it's about expression and about, you know how happy they are actually, when they do those things. And actually, I think when they see me when you strip away or they're like, I'm trying to be an independent music in the world, and I'm applying for funding, and I'm very, very strict like that when they actually see me like sit at the piano and just play and just seeing this seeing me really in my most pure kind of happy state. And they see that all the time. Yeah. So. So I think I'm more I'm hope that I'm modeling to them that in whatever way it looks like for you. And it can change as you change that creativity is just a really important thing to nurture within yourself. Because I think everyone is creative. Actually. Everyone. Yeah, but not all of them have been taught that that's okay. Or it's worth fostering or looking after? Yeah, I think. And maybe this is, I think, based on my experience with some people I've met along the way that a lot of angry people I know, are people who are not allowing themselves to be very creative and switch somewhere. And they just sort of hate everyone. And I really think that if you are if you allow yourself to, you know, yeah. Be creative. However, that is. I think you just yeah, like it's a bit cliche, but you're sort of tending to your soul a little bit. And then I think you just live in the world in a more well rounded, happy away. Yeah. So yeah, put that so well. Thank you. Very important to us, actually, as a family that we yeah, we do it and therefore hopefully, they just naturally do it, too. Yeah, that's it. Like like yourself growing up in your family, you saw that that is just part of a normal, everyday existence. This is not something that's out of the ordinary. You maybe didn't realize that till later. But, you know, this is a perfectly acceptable way to live your life like you don't have to be afraid of this. Yeah. And there have been times you know, when like, the kids were little aware, I wasn't spending heaps of time on music, but I actually was always being creative. So when I wasn't making music, I was I was writing the scenes. And when I wasn't writing scenes, I was like, bought a sewing machine. And I was trying to sew think I wasn't very good. But like I was sewing. Yeah, quarter like gardening now for me is a big one, like, so it's also like music is the thing that I come back to because I think, I don't know. It's like, it's in my DNA. It's who I am. And it's how I express myself in the world. But also just there are so yeah, showing them that there's just so many ways to be creative. Yeah, they can be small. They don't have to be big. Yeah, that's it and they don't have to be for anybody else. And they don't have to be clever monetary value placed on the me that they can be something. It's something for yourself, you know, so important. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. Best Use of my garden and losses, concert was born? Can you share with us what you might have coming up? You mentioned about your album that you're working on? Yeah. Have you got? And also have you got? I mean, I guess shows us starting up again in the world have you got anything you want to share that you've got coming up? Oh, so that Yeah, so the big, big one for me at the moment is the album that I've been making. And it's been a really long labor of love, like I always knew it would take time. But then right in the middle of it, we had a two year pandemic, which has had so many impacts a, it has impacts on time, because you can't like get to the studio. And then the other thing, like we've talked, we've talked about money a little bit today. But one of the things I do as a singer is, you know, when I do that backing vocals gig or I go on tour with that person on BBS, or I do that session work, that all generally gets generated back into the art that I make. So I lost all of that work. So then so so it's not just the time factor has slowed the record down, but it's actually the the income coming in to generate back into it slowed down as well. So COVID has really impacted it in a really huge way. However, we're really close to finish, like we finished recording the music, we're now mixing it and mastering it. And the hope was to release it at the start of this year. And now it's like we're going to release it towards the end of this year. And again, like you can have a plan. I don't know, I'm actually feeling really good about that. Now, I'd like you to have said right at the start, like, you've got time, you don't need to rush. Yeah. And I, I had a bit of an opportunity last year where I did something on TV. And so I was like, right, I've got to release it now because I got to ride that wave I'm gonna work out and I was like, Oh, I really disheartened by that. But in hindsight, it would have been rushed. And it actually wouldn't have been very good. And, and now I feel really good about sort of almost mapping out, you know, I don't know, like a six month plan and, you know, sharing the music, my music with the world really well and properly. So I don't have any gigs booked at the moment, because I'm super focused on the album. And what like, you know, as much as I hate to say it, social media plays a really big role in building my audience. So like, if anyone listening to this wants to follow me on the socials that would really be amazing. Or even sign up to my mailing list. Yeah, yeah, definitely put all the links, I'll put all the links in for people there. Cool. That would be really great. You know, that is sort of these days, I guess how we reach to a certain extent, at least, our audience, and of course, I would like to be gigging again. But I'm also really pacing myself, I want to do things well. Yeah. I don't want to just be throwing things together and quickly hopping back on stage. So we yeah, we will definitely be playing some shows when the album comes out, or there's single release or whatever. But yeah, choosing to take my time choosing to remember. Yeah, that I've got time. Yeah, that's what I think I think we can all take something from that, that it's, you know, we have got time. We don't have to rush. It's not a race and not to do things at our own pace. Yeah, totally. And obviously, the flip side to that is like, sometimes you need to give yourself a deadline. Otherwise, maybe I'll just be doing this for the next 10 years. So I know the deadline for me is by the end of this year, but what that looks like I still don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the main thing and yeah, maybe yeah, if people find me on social media, then yeah, if a gig pops up, and sometimes I'm doing gigs for other people, you know, like, I might be backing vocals for someone and I can share that as well. Yeah, but at the moment, I'm actually yeah, just tucked away doing all the behind the scenes work. Yeah, all the really hard work. Oh, my God, I know, right? Jumping on stage at the NCAA. Put me in front of like 1000 people or 2000 people and tell me to sing no problem. Put me in a room with like two people where I'm like asking for funding and I'll be days before Yeah. And that's the thing too, like, unless you're in that musician, where Old, or even the artists will, all you see is that in result, all we see is that in product, so you don't understand all the stuff that goes in behind the scenes to make that product, you know? True and like, you know, I think I think I read it somewhere that way, often comparing our kind of, like, we know what we're doing behind the scenes. So we know how hard it is and how messy it is and how not not ready it is yet we can get that to like what everyone else's end product that they're showing online is, and I think it's we're gonna do that too. Like, eventually, when I released this album, it's probably going to look quite nice and shiny and like, hey, look, but like, yeah, we're hearing the journey, you know, to the destination of others. And that's not a very smart thing to do. Probably not very helpful. Your, your album journey sounds like mine, mine is just taking forever. And I don't care because I hate sitting. I hate setting deadlines, because I hate that pressure. Because you know, life happens and you have children. And you know, you can't just go by, I have to do this for my 14 year old having a breakdown, like Italy's life, and it's so good. So I'm working with these producers who are overseas, and they just only because we have nothing here and that Gambia we don't have access to any sort of recording studios or anything. And again, I'm not going to tell you I know this is the world now. You know, it's amazing. And sorry, I'm just gonna blog for a sec. But yeah, they're in Spain and Argentina. So I basically send them a video of what I want, I bang out the chords on my old Casio and say, this is the idea I've got, then they send back their idea made on computer instruments. And always I say yes, that's amazing, because it always is. And so then they, they organize the musicians to play it properly. Then they send it back and I do my vocals and then they mix it. So they're doing everything apart from mastering it. So it's just like, and I can just sit here in my little room in the middle of nowhere. And this album and I'm, it's so wonderful. I think, you know, there's so much stuff around technology that can bother me and just, and then I hear a story like that. And I'm so excited. I'm like, that's now a possibility. You're working with producers saying, you know, and me years ago, to know that this was coming that this was possible, I would never have believed it. You know, I always had this idea that I live in this little town. I didn't I never wanted to leave my little town because I love it. You know, I was born here. I've got my kids here. Even Adelaide, it's only five hours away, or Melbourne five hours away. But it's a different world. So I've never wanted to pick up and go right, I'm gonna go there and make my career. It's like, No, I want to do it in my, in my own terms in my own way. And it's like, finally the time has come. I can do it. You know. I love that. Yeah. bloom where you're planted, you know? Yes. You know, other people might have a completely different, you know, they do want to move and they want. And that's great. But I agree like, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to. That's the cool thing about being an artist. You can forge your own way. There's actually no real like, we think there's a way you've got to do it. But then when you start to talk people, everyone's winging it. Yeah. That's for some people that's moving overseas for other people. It's so not that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that's really exciting. Well, I can't wait to hear it. You'll be waiting a bit longer. I know these things take time. Okay, with that, I think yeah, and that's thing too, if you if you're the sort of person that can be settled and go, Okay, when it's ready, that's fine. You can you can do this. But if you're the sort of person it's like, I have to do I have to get done. You could not do this. You'd be off to wherever to record but you know, that's the great thing, too. We're all so different. And that's what makes the world go yeah, we're all doing the same thing. Today, Ms. It's just been such a joy chatting with you. I really loved it. Thank you so much. You're so lovely to talk to me about music and I love talking about my kids. So it's a pretty it's a pretty nice thing to do to sit down and have a chat with you. Yeah, no, thanks. It's been great. I've loved it. Always good. Always good to get a bit of Beatles chat in there somewhere. Anytime, Ill have to tell you my Paul McCartney story another time. Oh, okay. All right, To be continued. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review Are you following or subscribing to the podcast? Or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested? If you or someone you know who'd like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Georgia Fields Australian singer, songwriter and musician S1 Ep15 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Georgia Fields is a singer, songwriter, producer and arranger from Melbourne Vic, and a mum of 2. She has been recording and releasing music as an independent artist for over 10 years. In 2010 Georgia recorded her debut self-titled album. Georgia Fields was awarded Album of the Week for ABC Radio National and Beat Magazine, and saw her perform on national television for SBS’ RocKwiz. Since then she has released Astral Debris in 2016 and Afloat, Adrift in 2017 - an EP captured live with The Andromeda String Quartet and She currently working on her next album Hiraeth, due for release 2022. She has also founded and launched The Mother Lode - a community to support and connect working mums in the Australian music industry. In this episode we chat about experiencing and dealing with 'imposter syndrome', the challenge of returning to performing after taking a maternity break, ageism in the music industry, THAT Triple J tweet and our mutual love for The Beatles. **This episode contains discussions around post natal depression and anxiety** Connect with Georgia here - https://www.georgiafields.com/ Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Georgia's music used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Giorgio fiends. Giorgio is a singer songwriter and arranger from Melbourne, Victoria, and a mum of two children. George has been recording and releasing music as an independent artist for over 10 years. In 2010, Georgia recorded her debut self titled album, her album, Georgia Fields was awarded album of the week for ABC Radio, national and beat magazine, and it saw her perform on national television on an episode of SPSS TV show rock quiz. Since then, she has released astral Daybreak in 2016, and afloat adrift in 2017, and AP captured live with the Andromeda String Quartet. George is currently working on her next album, entitled heroes, due for release in 2022. Amongst all this, Georgia has also founded and launched the motherlode, a community to support and connect working mums in the Australian music industry. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression and anxiety. Love to welcome you along today, Georgia. Thank you so much for agreeing to be on the podcast. And thank you. Great to have you here. Thanks for having me. So I know a little bit about you. I've been listening to your music for a little while. But can you share what you do? How you got into it? And all that kind of stuff? Sure. Well, I'm, I'm a singer, songwriter, I guess. That's my main bag. And I started, I started writing songs when I was a kid. But it took me a long time to have the guts to really pursue it professionally. So I started playing and really giving it a go when I was about 25. I think. So that was writing songs and performing under my own name, Georgia fields. And so now I'm, of course 26. No, I'm going to be 78 next week, so I've been doing it a little while now. I also write for strings from time to time, either for myself or for other artists, which is a lot of fun doing string arranging. Yeah, that's in terms of what kind of music I do. I tend to just say pop music because I feel like that kind of covers a lot of bases but pops a wider genre. So delving deeper into that, I guess. I tend to have a play with a band, as I said, sometimes with strings, so more of an indie pop, modern folk type situation. I guess that sums me up. Yeah. So when you said you used to write when you were younger? Did you ever do anything with it, then? Did you ever sing it like concerts or perform you're performing music as a child? I didn't do. I didn't kind of work as a child thing. I did a few recording sessions for ads as a kid. My uncle worked in that world. So occasionally, they'd need some singers. That sounded young or were kids. So I had done a little bit of that. Before I was familiar with studios. My uncle had both of my uncles had studios and and my family from the music world as well. So it was just something that was kind of modeled to me I didn't perform really as a kid. Thankfully, because I think that is a whole other can of worms. Yeah, yeah, that's how experiences Yeah, for sure. So why did it take you till you are 24 to start sharing your music? I think I just thought I had to be perfect to get started. Probably do Just want to examine that now like, probably I heard someone say, the problem was, I think it was like probably read it on Instagram on an inspirational quote, but it was something like we compare our, our work in progress with other people's finished outputs, you know, like, big I was just looking at looking at the artist side mired and going, Oh, well, what I'm doing here, what I'm working on isn't isn't as good as that. Whereas, you know, you're kind of comparing your own bedroom, works in progress with fully finished fully supported artists that are signed to Sony and to have massive, you know, I think there's probably a bit of naivety and a bit of impostor syndrome. But when I was I was, I went overseas, I went around around the world, when back when you could do that. And I was working in London, and I remember someone I've been working with. No, thank you, my husband just brought in a little snack for me. Thank you. What a sweetheart. I was I was I was living. I was living in London, I was working in London, and one of the directors of the firm I was working at, and I was just doing administration forgot my name. And I've been working with them for setting up their breakfast meeting for a while, like a while now. And they called me sweetie. And I was like, he doesn't know my name. And it just was this moment of feeling really disrespected and feeling like I wasn't where I wanted to be. And I just thought I have to I just have to get back home to Melbourne and just get making music. So that was kind of what really spurred me on, I think, yeah, it was that that moment that sort of brought everything into clarity, I suppose. And you Right, right. None of this stuff. That's right. That's right. Yeah. You. you've recorded a few albums as I listened to you on Spotify for a while that I did a bit of research. Thanks. Tell us about your albums that you've recorded. You said you've composed for strings. I think that's what in my mind anyway, makes your stuff so different. And so beautiful that you combine your your vocals, it's like the strings aren't just there to fill in. Underneath the accompaniment, they actually have a special place. Thank you. That's a really lovely interpretation of it. And I studied cello as a kid at school, I was lucky to go to a school that had a strings program. And we had a music program and you could choose an instrument and I chose cello actually initially chose double bass, but they didn't have enough school bases for me to borrow. So I've got I've got the cello which from memory my dad was was happy about. But I was I had terrible cello. And I didn't practice enough and it just wasn't really my instrument. So I never really able to be when I played it for five years, wasn't really able to get a beautiful sound out of it. So I ended up quitting cello in high school just to focus on on singing. But it's something it's instrument that I love. I love it so much that I decided not to play it anymore because it's so terrible. And out of respect for the insurance pure respect for cello. I'm not going to do it to any more cello. But I think having that experience of knowing what it can do and what it could sound like I was able to bring that to my my songwriting. I remember my cello teacher when I was in high school, I said to her, I really want to like plug Rotella in and play like play it, like maybe put it through an app and then I could sing over the top of it and bless a shoe I think she must have been must be a very classically trained cellist and she played with the msoa. And she just kind of looked at me and was like, okay, and I think that idea was quite foreign to her. But also She's probably just thinking you could start by playing some scales and doing a practice that I have given to you that you haven't done. Anyway, I digress. Yeah, I love working with strings because I feel there's just so it's such an emotional instrument and they're very versatile. So I've I've always had strings in my releases. My first album was very kind of was very foci and orchestral kind of based. I had an old friend who I met in high school actually, who's an incredible cellist. She's now a doctor of cello and she He was really mentored me when I started writing for strings. That's a treaty. Her name is Judas Haman if Casio in case any listeners will look that up, I wanted, you know, how do you write this out. And so she kind of got me started on it and got me hooked on it. Yeah, and then a little while ago, I made a record with a quartet that I work with a lot the Andromeda String Quartet, which was really fun, because we just did it live in the studio. So it was just just string quartet and voice. Before we talk about your children, I want to talk about the amazing work that you're doing with the mother lode, the website and the Instagram. And I just commend you so much. Can you just share with the listeners about the mother lode? How it came about? You know what compelled you to create the concept? First, I want to say thanks for your kind words about it. It's relatively new project. And it's funny when I connect with other mums through this project. In other words, it's always astounding to me when they say oh, we're you know, we're really enjoying it. Oh, this is this is a really great initiative because I think oh, gosh, I have had huge impostor syndrome about launching it. Yeah, who am I? Who am I to create this space for moms? You know, what have I done? How am I you know, this, you know, Cami farm Georgia, get back in your box, but I'm glad I started it. Yeah, so motherlode is it's an online community that basically aims to support independent musicians who are mothers in their music making, and their mothering, I guess, acknowledging that there are two enormous jobs in your life roles, or, you know, not labels, but they're parts of who you are. And they're really their full time. Part like you don't clock off being an artist, you don't clock off being a mom, they're just that that's part of who you are as a person. And support is needed for boats, I guess it was, I've been thinking about it for a while. I've been thinking about, you know, I just want to get together with my as a musician, friends, and just have a big debrief on so how are you doing this? And are you putting childcare in the grant budget? And how did you get a How did you, you know, do this and how do we do that. But it was when, really, in the pandemic, in in 2020, that I thought, this is getting ridiculous, this is getting very challenging. And, you know, we see it saw that a lot of job losses, you know, across across all jobs have, we've seen that it's women bearing the brunt of that. And people have said, it's likely because they're the ones that were already working part time was a big, they've had to stop working so they can homeschool their kids. We know that the music industry has been in crisis from the pandemic. So I guess just wanting to support mothers in the music industry to stay active, stay supported to keep creating work, because if we lose those voices, we're going to lose, you know, those stories, we're going to lose that, that perspective that I think is really important. And it's perspectives that I seek out now. Yeah, it is a community. It's, it's bringing people together, it's sharing ideas, and just giving people the opportunity to share information that is going to help others you know, it builds on itself. And yeah, it's wonderful. I hope it builds on itself. I feel like we're really in early days, we've got the Instagram channel, which is at Find the mother lode and then the website which I'm building up slowly. I guess because it's just as you would know, it's it's just me behind the scenes at night when the kids are in bed furiously on my laptop, trying to you know, work and get things done, but um, I've got a lot of dreams for the project and what it could mean. But yeah, we just got to start small, don't we? It's always got to start somewhere, but the intention is there and I'm so glad that you put aside your imposter syndrome that you named it. I haven't put it aside I'm just I'm just, you know, just keeping it quiet for the time being No, thank you. I am trying to put it aside. Yeah. trees and all these gravel magic so you mentioned your kids then tell us about your family. Yeah, I'm a mum to two kids. We live in Melbourne with my husband and my daughter, Kendra, who is six and a half. And my son Marlon, who is two and a half, and we're in lockdown. 6 million points. Whatever it is, I've lost count. But yeah, we live in, in the burbs here in Melbourne, and yeah, my husband's also a musician. So we're rich. We have a lot of keyboards, we have a lot of keyboards. We don't, you know, don't have a TV. But we have a piano. So we've got our priorities, you know, order or not order. Yeah, that That basically sums up that's us. Yeah. So you met your husband? Through your music, like through performing through meeting? Yes, yeah, our bands were singing our guest spot. At a night where his band was playing. So we did a collaboration together. And then we did a live family collaboration. We'll see. With with a bit of, you know, getting to know each other in between? Yeah. Oh, do you find that because he has an insight into music, he can empathize with the space and the time that you need, and when you need it, because he's got that background in music. Definitely. There's definitely an understanding of what the creative process is and what it feels like to be a creative person, but there's also a lot of competition, because we both want that space. And there's children in the family that require our care and attention all the time, because we're doing home learning. So we have very little respite at the moment. So I'd say that, that there's the positive of Yeah, you know, he gets it. But also, we both kind of scrounging for that time, which is a challenge, I think, with families, particularly families where there's two creative people. Yeah. So how I mean, taking out the challenge right now of being in lockdown, how would you generally manage your time and then with the children? With it's changed over time. So when we when it depends really on what the teaching arrangements are. He He's teaching at the moment, I was teaching before I took maternity leave. So generally, we just kind of try and split whatever spare days were left in the week, where we weren't teaching. But this, it's been more challenging as I wasn't really able to return from maternity leave to teaching work. Because that was when the pandemic really started. So that means that he's doing the majority of the teaching work. So in general, we try to split the time when the one when we're not teaching, but at the moment, he's working essentially full time. So we both are just working in the evenings on our creative projects if and when and how we want to do that, which is pretty tiring, but yeah, absolutely. And then yeah, you have the nights when the kids are awake, and then you're up with the children and then you've got a front up the next day again, it's just Oh, yeah. Your work to you know, work on something till 1230 At night, one o'clock, and then your toddler wakes at three, and then you've got to be up at 630 for whatever. Yeah, I'm pretty shocking. I was sleeping but um, but yeah, it's challenging, but you know, we love it. And that is something that I've that I struggle with is getting that balance because and I was talking to my husband about this in the kitchen the other day, like, I'm a much happier person when I'm when I'm got when I've got things on the go when I'm working on motherlode when I'm trying to put a single out or doing some recording, whatever it is, I'm much happier. But I've got to do that, you know, in the night and then I'm freaking exhausted and I'm not as happy as it's like how do you know just kind of do it, I guess. Week by week. Yeah, you can then go here the next week. I don't know if anyone's got an answer, please. Please email in. Yeah, send me a message. But you're going to take care of ourselves too. I mean, yeah. I don't know. I don't know the answer. It's a hard one isn't it? I've really noticed since because I had I was diagnosed with postnatal depression and anxiety after my son was born. He wasn't a great sleeper. Bless him. But now I've really noticed that and I feel like I've I've received a lot of support for that and I'm kind of coming coming through that. But I do notice now when I haven't had enough sleep, like you know, if I if I pull an all nighter to get some work done that I want to do and then my kids waking and then the next day I'm like, Well, I actually I really noticed that my anxiety is really high. So yeah, it's just it is a funny dance. How do you I've got to I have to take care of that because I don't want it to kind of get away from me again. Yeah, for sure. But I don't want to give up making music so but that I think that is a very that's something that's very specific to indie musicians who perhaps are supporting their creative practice with another job as opposed to musicians who are you know, their songwriting and they're performing pays their wage because they they're not you know, having to work through the night. I don't know. I don't know I've never been one of those so yeah. So hard to change. Of all the fates. I've begged to be with you you you I read that you're a big Beatles fan. Yeah, she's awesome. Because I love the Beatles so much the same way you can see their legs. I can Yes, I can. I don't know if I'm as big a fan as my son is now he is mad for it. That's wonderful. If I say to him, Are you are you retired boy or, you know, let me give you a cuddle of my little boys. I'm not a boy. I'm Ringo. I'm mummy Ringo. And he's Marlon Ringo. He's Yes. Please support the Beatles fan here. Beatles fan for sure. What's your favorite album? Oh, that's a good question. It used to be I mean, it was it was such a purpose for a long time, but I feel like I kind of almost burnt myself out from it because it was like my favorite you know from from being a kid. Revolver is just like this really amazing. Almost like a coming of age. I can hear Sergeant Pepper's just around the corner. But you know all that kind of the close harmony. Boy group stuff is still really in there too. I find that really fascinating. Record, but they're all good. I mean, Revolver is my favorite. I tossed up for a long time between that and the White Album. But I went, I love revolver so much. I just love. Yeah, it's just building up. It's just getting like it's starting to wind up to that the psychedelic crazy. Love has a high watermark for guitar sounds, isn't it? Like oh, yeah, I love how they just did whatever they wanted. Like they just they had songs with the tempos changed. And then they had like, the three songs joined together and they just did literally anything they want to. It's like, God, you guys, like 10 years, it was only 10 years, but I know just blows too short amount of time. But I feel as though it would have been it. Yeah, that'd be the talent, the talent, the individual talents, you know, we're standing together sum of their parts situation where you know, there's a special kind of magic, having them all working together but also that imagine just being able to go into into the studio, like just imagine just just going in and not being like watching the clock going shit. How am I gonna pay for this or like we've you know, we've got to get this done because, you know, I've got to make sure I get this many streams or I don't know, just imagine going in and being like, Oh, what am You can do today like that massive amount of freedom and people would have had that confidence in you like none of the record companies would have been worried about what was coming next like they would have just, you know, just let them go and see what they do. Yeah, yeah. Unreal just unreal. You favorite they don't have to ask you for everything. Well, of course Paul for a long time in fact, forever but I feel a really big coming around to George Moore he's his songs kind of used to scare me as a child had this quite Yes. It's kind of not aggressive. But there's something about his voice it's it's almost spooky. It's hit some of his some of his songs. He's just broke me a bit as a kid. But um, but yeah, coming around to George but um, always really been a fan of the way. Paul approaches melody and any songwriting? Yeah. I'm definitely more Paul than I am. John. John. John scares me a bit in his, I think, because I, before I knew much about their lifestyles and their behaviors, I really liked John's music. And then I sort of got turned off a bit when I discovered like, I don't know if that things were true or her stories. Yeah, and it's misogyny sort of attitudes and stuff. And I thought, I'm just gonna stick with post rock and roll that's feels better. I really struggled to listen to run for your life. Oh, yeah. I've listened to the lyrics of it. And what was the other one I was listening to? Which I love no reply, which is from an older one record I can't remember which one so from please please wear his like, I saw you walk in because I've seen like basically it's just he's a stock is a stock it doesn't matter if there's a stock it's not get the message. She's not into you. Just turn the phone. back. Oh, that reminds me. I was just thinking then when you said to me, there's no time. Soon, and it's like, basically do it my way. You gotta see my way. Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like do it my way because you're always wrong. And if you do it my way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's unreal. When you start thinking about in that way, like, if it creeps like anyway, I sometimes wonder what it would be like to go if you were sent back in time. And you could you could deliver all the songs, but they were fresh. I don't know if I mean, those songs are incredible songs. But they vary over time. And I don't know if you if you transported them to now, would they be successful? I pray I don't I think they actually because they defined the year that they were in because that's groundbreaking in the time that they're in. But yeah, you take them out and put them in today. And you just go What's that? Like? You wouldn't make it wouldn't might not be hit as hard I don't know. 911 Yep, well that's probably a good thing. leaving tomorrow tomorrow never know yeah with my guests, I love talking about two big the two big things I love talking about mum guilt and identity. So we've gone to mum guilt rock fest. How do you feel about I put it in the air quotes the old mum guilt? Because I feel like it's a label that's been created by someone else. But those feelings of that that guilt had had the sort of process that even before I answer that that that is a really interesting idea of what could we call it instead of mum guilt, because it is a thing that is natural. When you care about something, you want to make sure you're doing that job well. How can we re label that? You know, is it is it a pool or is it being drawn back to I definitely I definitely have mom guilt tend to have more mom guilt when I leave. Like if I have to leave the house to do work. Particularly if I go away on tour which I haven't done heaps of I did more of that when tender was little but you know pandemic times haven't really had the chance to abandon my son and hit the road yet. Yeah, it's a funny one. I mean, it's sometimes it never really, never really seems to have a rhyme or reason for me. You know, there'll be times when I can be stand quite firm in my commitment to maintain creative practice and a career and, and think, oh, you know, this is fine. And that's got him and this is great for him, it's great for them and not going to worry about this. And then there's other times, you know, I shouldn't have spent so long at the milk bar, you know, it doesn't seem to have a rhyme or reason for me, but definitely experience it. Yeah. Absolutely. And, yes, I like that, what you're saying about calling it something else, because I feel like almost like social media has created that tear, like a hashtag monkey, like, it's a throwaway sort of comment for others, but it's, it doesn't serve moms well to be labeled in that way. And sometimes, is it guilt? Or sometimes is it just actually, you know, us questioning? Is it time to bring the the is it the ledger back to towards more towards family? Or, you know, like, I think it is okay to question your involvement in in any kind of, you know, activity or, or passion, it's okay to say, Oh, am I spending too much time at work? Or am I? Or my you know, that that's okay. But whether you necessarily want to feel guilty about it? I don't know. And I guess, thinking about it now, like I haven't really thought really investigated this. And I'm glad you're asking me to but just for my own self, but I suppose it requires you two approach. I guess it's worth acknowledging that you're not going to approach parenting with a clean slate, like we all bring the wounds from our own childhood, and the wounds from the way we were parented to our own parenting. So that's something I guess that I, I find myself second guessing myself a bit on you know, do I have a reason to feel guilty about this? Or is it? Is it okay? Hmm. So I think, yeah, it's a challenging one, because no one's going to approach it. Yet, with a clean slate, everyone's going to bring their own baggage to parenting and, and that's going to inform how guilty you might be, or might feel. It's funny, there's, my friends become a mother recently, she's got a son who's nine must be nearly 10 months now maybe. And we went on tour together, we did a really big tour together when my daughter was maybe two, three. And like, that was the first time I left her and I had a lot of guilt about leaving her about being far away. And a lot of that was, I can also I could sense that there was a lot of baggage from my own childhood as well. But she was always very active about saying, you know, you are setting a great example for her, you are showing her that you there are things that in your life that you care about, you're showing her you're being entrepreneurship and you know, so she's really in my ear about that. So I feel lucky to have a friend and a musician and another like her to really help keep that in check. And if anyone is interested, her name is fear pH ia i think Instagram handle is listened to fear she's an amazing artist. So she's worth checking out and if she's your friend like she's my friend, she would tell you enjoy the music making take that time off go on to do it. So then leading into that the concept of identity that and I'm going to put this in air quotes again, because whenever I say I know it's not true. It's important to us for you to be more than just a mum and I know that's not right, because we're never just a mum, but I think you sort of touched on it earlier. When you say you don't clock off from being a mom, you don't clock off from being a musician, or an artist. How do you sort of retain your identity of, you know, you're still GA, you happen to have kids, but you've got all these other aspects of your life that are important as well. Make sense? Isn't it? It's an interesting question. I don't know if your other guests say this, but it's really interesting to have somebody asking these specific questions because often, like, I personally wouldn't think about this, in such specifically personal terms, until someone asked me a question like this, I thank you for the opportunity to, you know, do therapy. Podcast, when, when my daughter was born, I had work when I fell pregnant, I had work coming up, I had been booked to write a film school. And that started work on my second album. So I was just like, I'm just gonna keep doing like, I'm gonna start, I'm just gonna keep doing these things. And so I had these things booked in, I had to do them. Oh, my God, it was quite stressful at times, because I was frightened of letting people down. I didn't realize how sleep deprived I was going to be. So there was like, it was very challenging. But because I had the work booked in, it had to happen. Contrasting that, to the experience with my son, which is when I thought, Okay, I'm just gonna take some time off, I'm not going to book anything in. I'm not going to stress myself out, like I did the other time when I had all those commitments, so I'm just going to have nothing in the future. And then, you know, when he's one or something, I'll just start on some things. But COVID said, No, you won't. So that was interesting. Because I approach motherhood with having no, no creative projects, really happenings and no identity as, as a being a musician in that way, and it was very shocking was very challenging. To consider that those parts of myself could be gone, they might not come back. The opportunities might not be there, you know, those relationships might be lost. When you put time, why don't you go back to book a gig and that person is not there anymore? They knew you and the other person's like, oh, who are you? And how many people can you bring to the venue? And you have to go through the whole thing of selling yourself? Again, that sort of thing? Which really, yeah, I think it is really important to there's nothing wrong with being a full time mother who doesn't work outside the house. And, and is, is totally, um, enthused. And just fulfilled by that role. If you wanted to be executive, or, you know, an artist, or whatever it is, if you want to do something outside of that, it's okay to like, I think it's really important to, like, still live life on your own terms, I guess. Not feel like you have to say no to things. Because fathers aren't saying no to things. Let me tell you. Yep. Sorry, but it's true. It's true. Yep. Absolutely. I mean, if you want to say no, if you think oh, I'm just gonna be too tired. And I prefer to just spend the time with my kids then great. But you should be free to make those decisions as much as you can, I think. Yeah, because it is important, I feel from talking to other moms, that you still need to have you still use need to have that sense of self. You need to have something that you can do without your children. You know, it's so I'm just a happy mother. I'm a better mother. I'm a happier mother when I'm when I'm making things callous in its choosing. sweeping across a baby. Laughter sands on defenseless. Spock this shins have detached This is my love with your writing of your music, leaving you scoring. Have you found that that's changed at all since became a mum, like the themes that you explore that kind of thing? The themes in my writing have changed definitely. Yeah. I've I want to say finished writing but I haven't finished recording so the album so maybe I haven't finished writing it either. Maybe there'll be some new song that finds its way onto it. But I have a collection of songs I have a new body of work that I'm I've started recording and And it's it's very much inspired by motherhood and and relationships with my own mother and and grief and and yeah identity and belonging and home and I don't think I would have explored those themes pre children's pre children my songs weren't all about love and breakups you know a number that were and the number that still are you know, but I don't think I would have been inspired to explore those really personal relationships family relationships had I not experienced that imagining of your family Sandra MiFi meets your friends then words fall out like stone we carry them like it to your children they see what you're maybe not the two and a half year old but your your older daughter she knows what you're doing. She knows that you're recording she knows you're making music. She aware of that your contribution to the world. I suppose. She hasn't seen any of my music videos. Actually. I haven't showed her any of those. But she knows she knows I play she knows that. Most of the most of the time what my little one says don't go to a geek mummy. If he sees me putting lipstick on. He's like can you do any of these don't go it's sorry, some slams don't know. I find you i joking about it more because I think we've been so you know, with the lockdown. Everything's been so kind of home. Homebound, so I'm pretty keen to to get out. So I do joke more about that now. But um, but ya know, she she knows. She knows I sing and play and I don't. Yeah, time will tell whether, you know, she's on the therapist couch going my mum was so selfish or, you know, or whether she'll say I was I was proud to see her do things maybe it'd be both probably. I'm guessing. That's isn't it? Maybe it's a little little of both? do really interesting, I wonder what how music compares with other art forms? Because I'm in music as well. I feel like you know, there was that Triple J tweet fuel. You know about which I when I read it, I was like, I don't know if that's really intended for musicians. Like I saw it. And I was like, there must be something else behind that. Because that is just so insulting that I'm sure no one would be stupid. Like no one at Georgia will be stupid enough to insult that many people. Like on purpose. But it was so like, wow. quite awful to read. But, you know, I don't I don't know if there's explicit ageism. In other art forms where people aren't presenting themselves. Yeah, you know, as the work yeah, but probably another isn't dead. So I've got a friend who is a really successful ballet dancer. And, you know, there's this idea that once you get to a certain age and you like, you are not going to be as flexible as a 22 year old, you know, if, if you're in your 50s you're just not going to have the same body, but whether you know, that can still be celebrated and still be, you know, a vehicle for emotion. I mean, how could it not be if you had a dancer with like, 45 years of experience on stage is a 60 year old How could it not be incredible but yeah, I do wonder like how, as I'm getting older and I'm in a young person's industry, you shouldn't be it's I mean, it's not run by all young people. It's run by old men but but yeah, it does. Is it the same for writers who who don't have to have their It faces on the on the work. Is it the same for visual artists, video artists, as women age? Are they more respected? Or is there more pressure to have achieved things and are well, you're this age and you haven't achieved it yet? That's something that I'm would like to know more about. So tell me your findings, you should publish them. But yeah, at first, I thought that must be like a lyric for a song that I'm too old to, like. There must be reason why that that happened. And I think, you know, in the end, I'm glad because I think it it allowed it gave people the confidence to call it out. And just Yeah, I mean, a lot. I am friends with musicians who are my age, and we're just 21. And no joking about that. And be okay with it. I'm 38 Next week. But that, you know, we've all had the thing where Triple J will say, Oh, we we think you're not maybe quite right. To be fair. You know, similar to you, like, I'm not sure that my music really is Triple J music, but I know people I know women who are making Triple J type pop music. Yeah, we're being told Are we just think it's not right, like the right kind of thing for us. Let's move on to the slightly older Double J. But then I I've got a couple of friends who are men who have no problem getting played. So I might know, I don't know. Is it a coincidence? Yeah. See, I thought when the backlash came out, he was certainly I noticed more women reacting to that, quote, men were some men was supportive. But by and large I, for the people that I follow at least, that the women were the ones going hang on a second like, Yeah, I know. It really does. It troubles me. And then some of the comments, there was a really interesting tweet in reply that if you want to double j to be taken seriously, you know, create the same sort of exciting opportunities on double jayven on Triple J. So revamp that to make it something that people aren't like, Oh, great. Now my dad was like, yeah, like you've been primed off to a lesser, you know, and I do think that, that hopefully that will that will grow. Yeah, there was an artist Jack Cole, who was talking about that. He's a out and proud, gay man and a singer songwriter, beautiful singer songwriter and had a lot of wonderful success and to supporting Sarab Lesko and his recent albums received a lot of success. But he was saying that, you similarly, it's the ageism thing is, is compounded by if you're a woman, if you're non binary, if you're gay, if you're from a diverse cultural background, if you're First Nation, so and his experience was very much that, you know, you don't want to have an h you get asked to you know, why don't you send it on to Double J But Double J don't have the lack of version? They don't it's, you can't tune in in your car. It's digital radio. So it's, yeah, yeah. Yeah, hopefully that the only thing I just think it'd be better if there was more Australian, you know, national, radiant, like you've Double J get up to be more of a just a different Triple J and then we're fantastic. But someone else would made the point that Double J or Triple J really rose to cultural fame or importance before the internet. Oh, that was for me. You know, we'd listened to my cassette player ready to hit record when I hear the song that I liked, because it was no Spotify. Yeah, recorded on tape. Yeah, really old. But now that there's the internet, we can all hear about whatever music we want. You know, I still think there's a place for it. I think radio is a really powerful way to connect with people and share music but it is like maybe they're not the cultural gatekeepers that perhaps I think what we think they are because there's the thing called the internet that the kids are talking about this amazing thing I see on the outside like a size I guess it's hard to ask you when you're in lockdown what you've got coming up. Oh, that's Thanks for Thanks for being sensitive enough to kind of say that. You know, I've been around for that. What do you got coming out? Have you asked me that? Yeah. But nothing coming up? No. Thank you for asking. And thank you for putting that beautiful little disclaimer on there about lockdown and the challenges that we're facing with being able to create new works. Really, the main thing I'm focusing on the moment is building up motherlode. It's been something that I find really, I didn't think that ever be something that excited me about building as, as I've been excited about creating songs and writing songs and sharing them with the world and building that sort of the Georgia fields project. I feel really just as excited by Motherload at the moment. So almost sometimes I have to remind myself, hey, you know, have you done any GA feels? Okay, have you worked on your songs because I've just been very excited about starting that off. But I do have some songs written and I'm in the I'm basically I'm trying to get it funded. So I'm, I'm saving money, I'm doing the grants, I'm doing all the things. So that's taking up a lot of energy. But I've decided that I'm just gonna keep trying to record the songs, I've got a single coming out soon, where were worked with a with the producer for the album, which, you know, I'm really excited about sharing because we went into a lovely studio and, you know, sing it in the lovely studio, and he's mixed it and it sounds lovely, and can't wait to share that if I can't get funding together. You know, it might be more of a Lo Fi project, but I feel I won't. I will. And this is another conversation for another day maybe on creativity and, and, and motherhood. But I feel that until I've kind of recorded these songs, it's very challenging to write are the ones I don't know if you're like that, like I'm very much like, I need to record the songs now. I need to share them. It's like and then I can close the chapter. And I can Yeah, so I think I have to record them. So they will come out at some point in some way. Yeah. Now with varying sounds of maybe some of them are going to have my kids in the background. I don't know. I could send my two Nerf guns for you. Just to help you kind of really concentrate really getting my feel I do feel I heard that's not I feel like though. Now like I've done shows where something's you know, distracting or it's like nothing is is prepares you for that stage craft focus and when you're trying to practice and you've got kids running around in the lounge room like it's just such a good training man thank you so much. Yeah, I look forward to seeing how it goes. Likewise. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio or send me an email. Alison Newman dotnet My breath is my heart was

Bianca Richardson Australian illustrator, watercolourist and graphic designer S1 Ep22 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Bianca Richardson is an illustrator, watercolour artist and graphic designer from Mount Gambier South Australia and mum of 2. Bianca studied graphic design and made this her core business, creating websites, logos and branding for clients, Bianca has maintained her own art practice, her favourite mediums being watercolour, ink and pencils as well as using her iPad Pro. Her relaxed, illustrative style has garnered attention from her corporate clients in recent years. Her blog "Just Draw More Bianca" was born in 2010 as a message and reminder to herself, to just keep drawing! Her fun spark and humour shines through to this day with this name remaining as her online identity. **This episode contains discussion around anxiety** Connect with Bianca on her website and instagram Follow along with The Portrait Project Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity for day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram and to get in touch with the podcast. All music used on this podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respect to the relationship that traditional owners have with this land and water, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. My guest today is Bianca Richardson. Bianca is an illustrator, watercolor artist and graphic designer from Mount Gambier, South Australia and a mom of two. Bianca studied graphic design and made this her core business creating websites logos and branding for her clients. Bianca has maintained her own art practice over the years, her favorite mediums being watercolor, ink, and paint shows as well as using her iPad Pro. Her relaxed, illustrative style has garnered attention from her corporate clients in recent years. Her blog, just draw more Bianca was born in 2010 as a message and reminder to herself to just keep drawing her fun spark and humor shines through to this day, with this name remaining as her online identity. Today, I'd love to welcome to the podcast. Bianca Richardson. Thank you so much for coming on, Bianca. Thanks for having me, Alison. It's a pleasure. You're an illustrator and a graphic designer. How did you first get into that sort of creativity? When I was in high school, I guess I always loved drawing illustrating, and I, you know, ideally, I think I wanted to always be an illustrator, but I found that graphic design was the career I could follow up with those kinds of skills, and then maybe potentially look at illustration later on like I am. Now. I studied multimedia. So that was like a mix of like websites and a bit of animation and video and design work as well. So that's fell into that kind of career path. Like I had a few mentors in that field that, you know, inspired me and I took that on. And I've loved it, like graphic design has been great. But I've always had that urge to draw, like, I really enjoy drawing, I get a lot of satisfaction out of people enjoying my drawing. And I think the big turning point was in 2010 I started a blog just to keep myself going it was like a Blogspot blog just drove all the anchor I called it just to keep myself going. They had there's a project called illustration Friday that every Friday they'll bring out a topic and you draw anything based on that topic it was a really cool community. So I got into I get into that and then just sort of snowballed from it like I had I sort of have graphic design and separate am I drawing blog was separate two separate things. And then I think more so about four or five years ago clients started seeing my drawing work and wanting that included in the designers that kind of merged more there so slowly happened like it was a real slow burn it still isn't slaving but people wanting my art more than my graphic design lately is that that's that's really cool. Yeah. Touching on your the name that you that you give yourself just your more Bianca is that sort of like a message to yourself like I can't let it go now. I love it. Like I kept thinking I'll change my name because gone to my own name, but I'm like, I just love this. It's just so honest. Like that's what it was for me in 2010. And it still is now so just drum all the anchor. Did that sort of tie into any particular period in your life? Where was it around being a mum or? Yeah, was there any trigger for that that you you wanted to encourage yourself to draw more? No, it was pretty kids. My husband was mad about triathlons and Ironman at the time. So we started to blogs he was because because everyone kept asking us like how is Toby going with this training? So I had a blog how is Toby going? And it's brilliant. That's true. We go let's just check that little life stock of personality and humor like that, that interests me like I'm very I'm not. I'm not clean cut professional. Or be dork. I love that. I'm sure they'd be Yeah, there'd be plenty of people out there. You know that want you services that would be the same that bit of quirkiness that you know bit of fun and yeah, yeah, so really, yeah. relate to a lot of people I think what sort of mediums do you work in with you? I like good. pencils like regular pencils. Ink I love kind of ink. I love watercolor. More so the last few years I've really gotten into using procreate on my iPad. Like it's it's been convenient because I can take it anywhere. And it's lit up so I can do it at night. Once the kids go to bed. I can sit on the couch and coloring I can it's yeah, it's been really good for my lifestyle at the moment. I still like hand drawn with I love to actually draw on paper first and then transfer it across the iPad. And then color so it's a meet it's mixed radio, I guess is the classic term for let's launch it and talk about your family then you mentioned you you're able to do your procreate when the kids are in bed. How many children do you have? So I have two kids. I've got an eight year old daughter and a two and a half year old son. So bit of a gap between the two. I don't sleep that great. I don't really do that much work at night. But I like the idea of it. I think I use my iPad more driving around town for a daytime nap with my son out of pocket around the lake and get it out and do some coloring in. Yeah. My siblings were all five to six years apart. And like, I'm someone that needs my own space a lot. So I found like, I love the time my kids but I could my brain would explode if I had kids too close. I think I just I really Yeah, I I need my own time and I need sleep to be a better person. So yeah, please to the beautiful kids. I love them. It's a perfect fit for me. Yeah, good. Yeah. No sleep sleeps good sleeps important. So were you able to keep up with that after the birth of your first child? I was a bit of an idiot when I was lecturing at TAFE when I was pregnant with my daughter, and I was doing a semester so I decided to do one term before I had her and a term after thinking well, I'll be able to balance this out. I've done it. There's only six hours a week but my gosh, I went back when she was five or six weeks old. Three hour sessions and it was so hard like you know you breastfeeding so it's painful words your brain you have no brain it's just the mashed potato like it was just it was madness but in my head I had this idea that I've read all the books I'm at a pretty stable point in my life I'll be I'll be able to do all this and yeah, it was a massive Eye Opener it's one of those things you can't you can't really prepare yourself for Isn't it like like I said you can read the books but when you're actually in it, it's like it no one can even warn you about it because you take relief those books are a waste of time what those are very good burst skills or something. I had all these ideas like I'll take my stressful when I would take all these little things like I just lost. After you did that the summit stir when you returned back to TAFE were you sort of were you working on your own art as well at that time, or just focusing on your teaching? I did, I actually produced the calendar, like I was doing little desktop calendars. So I've managed to she was born in September, so I managed to get one out for Christmas time, which was pretty amazing. I had her laying on the floor in the office. I tried to do a little bit so I just think it helped my brain even though coming back from having a kid or having both times to get a computer and like, I don't know what to do anything anymore. Like, you know what form I can't remember anything like it takes me way longer than what it should it's just like becoming a new person again, it's really it's a really weird feeling. Just feel brand new. So did you run it? Sort of important then to get back into doing stuff for yourself? Was that something that that you wanted to do? You were focusing on? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I guess growing up like I drew that was my thing, just my time out my relaxing thing to do. So I need it in my life. Like I find if I don't even just a little quick sketching session. It's just something to get out. If I really feel wound up or don't move away. I need I need to use it like it's it's just my my time. And as clearly that my daughter is quite creative. So when she was young, she was always wanting to do stuff with me would collaborate and paint paper and collage stuff. And so fun. And like even now, Ultra, I'll be doing a client job. Normally, I've left it out on the table, and she'll come by and draw a picture next to me. Just this is excellent. Oh, God. Actually, I think I saw that on Instagram the other day that you posted something you're working on. And then there was your daughter's picture. That's wonderful, isn't it? And it's like she's seeking it out from you. It's like you're not. I mean, I know you would do it. But you're not saying Come on, come and do this. It's like she's actually you know, she's the one instigating it. So that's really lovely. Yeah. What about sorry, God. But I was glad to have a creative kid. Yeah. What about your other little one? Hey, likes to join in. So we'll get the day we painted baubles for the Christmas tree. We do a lot of bits and pieces. But I remember a few a few months ago my daughter had gone to the dentist has had a procedure coming up she was nervous about so she ended up drawing a picture of her mouth that was open with teeth and other dentists instruments just for her to cope with it. Oh, no, that was really clever way about using art to deal with feelings. And then my son comes along and he liked it it was a dental instruments that she designed just you know, his mouth just seemed great. But how mature is that though? Like she's got a real gift, hasn't she? That's what she does. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's pretty special to you what is your day to day sort of art life or artwork? Clients? How does that sort of look today? As you as you move through each day, I majority of my work at the moment is my design work. I have a couple of days of daycare. So that was really good. I was really funny about daycare. My first I just found I was scared of the germs. I was scared of everything. So she did family daycare this time around. I was working in that and it was just mental because I still have to do school pickup. So there was like I had to have a nap by certain time to get working. And it was very, very, very, just it was silly, but I've had my son in daycare or childcare this year, and it's for two days. Wagan it's been so helpful. Like, even though today I left him and he's upset, which is sucky, but it just helps. I don't know like I've got a block of time now to work. So I do majority graphic design work. I still try and fit in my illustrations at the moment, the Christmas coming up and doing a lot of help home portrait commissions. That's my little outlet, the art is good. And I get enough satisfaction by doing people's memories at the moment that I've built. I've got a fix in my illustration fix going on. Yeah, I got like some other projects in line with April, Hague set up this portrait project that I'm part of, for the next six months with a group of like, 10 other women and I just signed up to that I thought, you know, I need just good to learn new things and meet new people. And yeah, out of my comfort zone. So I'm excited about that. Yeah, I was actually chatting to Julia, yesterday, we recorded her podcast, and she was telling me about it. And I thought that sounds amazing. Because it's gonna be, it's gonna be incredible for people like Julia said, she doesn't paint portrait, so it's going to be challenging for her put her out of her comfort zone. And it's okay, it's going to be amazing to see everyone's different styles and everyone's take everybody's take on on everybody else as well. But I did put out to receive how you're gonna feel about having your head out in the world. Yeah. That's a bit confronting, sort of, do you feel better? Are you okay with that? I do. I'm very, I wasn't very self conscious person. I guess I'm working on it. So I'm trying to be like, oh, like I'm choosing I think, to do myself. So it'd be an exploration of myself. So I can just extract as I want. Yeah, I'm looking like you might look like nothing. Someone completely did. The back of my head. Hey, that's cool. Yeah, there you go. We find it's really it's really out of the comfort zone. But there's no undo button when I'm, I don't just do a painting. So it's gonna be fun. That's really exciting. It was amazing models in the group to like, it's yeah, you're working alongside some really, really talented people. So there's heaps to learn? Yeah. Do you get daunted at all by that? Or do you just straight out see it as just an email? I was like, I went and spoke to Juliana, like, I don't know, like, I'm not an artist. I felt like she was like your dig? For me, and I'm like, what about that to lose? Like, she's asked me, I'm just like, yeah, that's, you know, I've always just downplaying myself, I was like, Oh, you just do you know, but I enjoy that that sort of is a fine artists all look good for you. I'm, that's, I'm really pleased you're doing it. Because like, personally, I like I love your style of drawing. And I think that's the thing with that, like, there's so many different styles and so many different ways of representing things. And like, this is something I'm learning to, as I go go through this project, just sit, you can do whatever you want. You know, like, there's no, there's no limits on stuff. And it's so liberating and, and amazing. So yeah, no, I'm glad you're doing it. Like I like to say I can't wait to see everybody's it's gonna be awesome. Because I do follow you on Instagram, I see the houses pop up. When someone gives you a photo of a house, it's obviously special to them. Do you sort of take that take that on board? You know, when you're, when you're illustrating? Does that sort of seep into you a bit that emotion and the connection? Yeah, absolutely. And I try and ask them things that make that home the home. Like, if you're taking a photo that's recent, it won't have things that they you know, the special flower or there was a special chair at the front or you know, there's a bird that regularly visits like all those things. Make it the home. Yeah, so I'm doing now at the moment, there's heaps of like, I'm actually doing one that's the 70s home in Queensland. So they're going back over old photos and doing the home back in the day and it's really cool. I just, I love hearing people's memories. Like I don't know, I really it's fulfilling so I'm, yeah, I'm gonna really focus next year on pushing it a bit more on getting a website that's up just years kind of fell in my lap at the moment. We're not feeling like I've worked for it, but it's like I haven't quite streamlined yet, but I will focus on that next year. Yeah, really? really love it like a lot of sense that satisfaction out of it. Yeah, absolutely, I can totally relate to that. I think it's it's really special and then I guess the people couldn't appreciate that the amount of work that's gone in not just the the physical drawing of the work but you know the effort that you've put into it to find out these other details and yeah, it's really special. Yeah, make sure no one requests horses in this table over this just have to like swishing that's really cool Do you have family around you in the mail? Like, do you have support, you know, down at Millison, or, you know, people around you that can can help you when you, you're trying to get work done. And, you know, you just need the kids out to be here. My family, my parents are still in Millison. And my in laws live in medical area, and my sister lives in the area. So I call on all them a lot. And lately, I've got a lot to just because it's coming close to the deadline time for the year. But they're all really helpful. But I'm very, very lucky to have a support network like I do. And I've got a good relationship with my mom and sister that I you know, I asked them everything, anything, you know, it's, it's good, it's really helpful. And my sister actually, she had her first child 13 days after I had my second and we've like, got, you know what it's like we forget everything about having a baby, that she's been really helpful, which is actually a good I didn't have a mother's group again, the second time around, she was a good friendship for me to have because you just become lost again, like you're going back. You're my other friends have all had their second kid or whatever, or no kids and they're just, you know, at that level, we're all going back to newborn land. They're having my sister was so helpful. Celia, she's still reminds me of things. I just overlooked, I guess. That's about 10 of us, we still catch up where we can like they really were just good people. You're like me because I would wrap up to a mother's group. And I had to go to TAFE after the lecture, so I'd be all dressed up ready to go to TAFE which is like you just looked like you had your life so together like that's funny that's heavy and honestly I just shit scared like what am I doing? What am I do we have perception of me or these new mom who just had a life all sorted and was able to like rocked going to the work and it was not like that. That perceptions and interesting thing, isn't it? It's it's just you see this little snippet of someone and you think you've, you've got it all worked out. Because you only told me like a year or so ago. What that is so funny. So like, if what do you think that's the same with social media, like people say people's posts, and think, oh, wow, their life must be perfect. They look like they've got their life together. Yeah. Me when I'm feeling not great. I can't handle it. I have to go on big following moments. I just can't like I know. I know that. It's all a glossy highlight reel. But just when you're not feeling level, it's not a good thing. Oh, yeah. I can relate to that. Yeah, it's gonna be more. Hey, people have to be more real, like. Yeah, I totally agree with that. It's like, it's like, what? What's the words? Like? It's like, Who are you trying to impress? Why do you think you have to do this? Why do you think you can be honest, and, you know, just show life as it is. And we all can go? Yeah, we agree with that. You know, it's weird. It's very odd these days anyway, because people were trying to get the most likes, so comments, so you know, views it's all about that now. It's very it's a very weird place. Like it's not just, I'm just here doing my thing. But most artists I follow are just like, I'm just gonna keep posting as I do. And it's awesome because their work is just wicked and it's normal. It's not trying to get it's not trying to you know, be viral out there for that little minute of fame like it's Yeah, download my group I think yeah, it's very genuine. Like yeah, yeah. Creating like you're not always it's not like you can have something to show every week or twice a week like they sort of want you to do is ridiculous like, you know at the moment all these homes I can't show you because their Christmas presents. Yeah have upgraded stolen I can't show because they you know early days of like some really cool stuff out because I have nothing really to show, but I'm just, you know, do what I can. Oh, yeah, I think that's a lot of pressure, I think that some people probably have to put on themselves to just be noticed. And yeah, everyone works in peaks and troughs, you'll have your moment. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? It's like some days and eight when, like, you know, goes hand in hand with your creativity, I suppose. Like, I mean, different for your situation where you actually got to work, you're doing a job. It's like, some days you would go, I don't want to do this today. I don't feel in the headspace. There's nothing creatively coming out of me. What do you do then on those days when when you do have a like a deadline? How does that sort of work? Created deadlines? Or crap? Oh, okay. Well, go go graphic designs. You just go play out for my first job out of study was working at a local magazine. So let to work really quickly. So even if i I hate being rushed, I you know, if someone says to me a sap that was like, serious, like, just, it's the worst thing to do, because you just, I can't do it quickly. But I hate that pressure. But I can do this. I just think I can do it. But you just don't get the best result. Because you can't have it all. You can't have the best product ASAP. So I still I get it done. I meet deadlines. I just might not be as satisfied as I could be. You've got to think about it a bit more. But with my permission deadlines, I've I've padded them out so much. Because you know like when you're a parent, your life's not just about you. It's about like to other people in the family, your husband as well. So it's up to you know, if one of them falls sick, that throws the whole balance out of my life, because that's what it is. So I've had it out heaps of time in between everything to make sure I can still reach the printer deadline for Christmas. Yeah. Yeah. It's just yeah, you have to plan because I don't know like, so far so good. We're all healthy. But I'm always worried about sending him into Chipotle, like, oh, my gosh we're just getting tired, like the weekends are getting a bit busier. And I think last week, he just started slowly getting a bit more sad than today actually cried as I was leaving, not usually it's a bit after I leave. I know. I'll check soon on the app, and he'll be playing and hopefully okay, but yeah, it's it's hard to clear that headspace to get to work. And I find that's the hardest part, I'll feel in a slump, you'll get a copy. And then I might just try and ease into it. Like I just I lose productivity because I feel trapped for doing it. But yeah, that that's leading into the sort of mum guilt topic. How do you feel about mum guilt? Oh, it is real. It is definitely, I observe it a lot with stuff. People around me say about others to like, Oh, she's doing this blah, blah. And it's like, maybe she needs to do that. Like, I used to probably be the same in thinking that and it's taught me a lot that that might be her out a lot that she needs just to feel like a human and be a better mom. So it's been a lot lots of work to pick up on your own, like, where you're being critical of others, where you're like, oh, that's maybe I'm envious of that. Or, you know, I don't really know her story, but it's because they're like, We can't do anything. So you can spend too much time with kids and not and not do anything for yourself. You can spend too much on yourself and nothing for your kids like it's it's a losing battle. to juggle isn't it? It's a constant juggle. That is, I guess that ties into the identity topic that I that I talked about, too is that you do have to have something for yourself that you're going you do. And I do like I think I worked out like I my time out when I was younger was drawing and just I was a pretty like hit in the clouds kind of kid I must always had like a little bit of anxiety. So I'll draw and chill out. Until once I became a parent and had a few other triggers in my life and I wasn't drawing as much I realized, Oh, I do carry anxiety. I just have to find my way of dealing with it because I was guest I was always able to do it myself before without having a distraction of a kid. So to me it's just a like a peaceful, peaceful place to go like I you know, I've had a pretty you know, come by in life but it just it's my little. I overthink I'm a big worrier. Like, you know, I'm petrified of my kids getting sick. I know. It's not a big deal, but for me taking my son to childcare is a sign that I can do it. So I How much of both like, yes, you can do these? Like, you know, like, there's germs, but there's not always germs. You know? Yeah, it's all those things to make me get over my fears. Yeah, I think you know, and like drawing, I don't think you could, you know, people who don't feel creative understand, but we need these don't worry, like it's just a little, you know, you need that time to just, yeah, it's good. It's like you've got, you've got yourself medicated, you know, this is your therapy to work through, you know, like you said, you know, your life, your life's great, you know, but whatever goes on between the ears is like, you have to deal with that in some way. It might not be affecting, you know, what's going on outside, in your home, everything's going great. But you've still got to sort this out for yourself. So yeah, using that as your therapy, to sort of, to give yourself a break to work through things, and then you come back fresh and ready to go again, you know, for the onslaught. Yeah. I was thinking, my major feeling sometimes of working, and art and kids. Feeling is frustration. And that's how we're thinking about it. Like, I think I was, because I get ideas and I want to act on them. Like, I'm not gonna go do this thing. You can have a whole weekend of just having an art retreat, frickin awesome. But I could ask and get that and get the sitter's and do it. But at the moment, I don't feel like I'm ready to do it. But yeah, this is finally I'm starting to do something like oh, you know, someone needs you know, it's just that flow. You don't quite get that stage as much anymore. But it's that point in my life. And I know that things change. And they'll be time and the kids don't want to talk to me for a week so we to call for me so my dad always said to me, like don't wish your life away because when we're second was a newborn. I was just like, let's just get 12 weeks. I know the first four weeks the hardest. I've countdown like eight weeks. Yeah, we're nearly there over halfway. Like, I was kind of, I was kind of wishing it away. Then I looked at my daughter because she was in reception at the time. And I'd look at it and like she has grown so much in this face. Like oh, here I am wishing this time away because I'm like, This is so hard. I just feel like a zombie then I look at her and I'm like she's changed so much like just slow down. So now I'm sort of got that you know, it's all phase I can I break it down to this is what it is like, I still am frustrated quite a lot, but I just have to Yeah. Isn't it it's like Yeah, yeah, it's I don't know how we do it. Honestly. It's just a It's screwing with your head every single day. Yeah. Sad you how you carry their sadness that you carry. Everything that's really it's really intense. Sometimes. You have a good run, you're like this is great. This is good. Yeah, to just get up and to go somewhere would be such a privilege. Like you know, I can't I get I think it was employment, that's for sure. Like my husband wanders while we get out when the dishwasher has been stacked so shapely because in the morning, then I have to then reclaim them. And I'm like, Well, this is time like in the morning. It's just like, bing bing, bing, bing. Have you brushed your teeth? You don't need any like, it's just you just the robot. I try like I try and get up earlier. I still get woken up for the night so I maximize my sleep like yeah, that's my that's what I need. Yeah, it's just it's a different life. Like as soon as you become a mom, it's just I don't know like it's a massive, massive shift in your life. You're so responsible for other people and still yourself you know, because you don't want to let yourself go when you have kids. I love how you put that I love seeing the kids be close to their family because I grew up like one side of my family's Italians is a quite a big family caught up all the time like Sunday lunches every Sunday. It was you know they did my grandparents, those family that were important to them. So yeah, I've always grown up with lots of cousins and the other side to like always close cousins as well. There had heaps of cousins and my poor kids. They've got one cousin he might give you because the rest of the Victoria is still walk away FaceTime, but it's you know, I was so grateful for the dynamic they get they get to the grandparents here at least which is good because it helps. I don't know, it's family and friends are different. It's yeah, they're very lucky. Yeah, yeah. And it's lovely to see your own parents, as grandparents. I love that. Watching my dad with my kids and thinking oh, he would have told me off for that but he's laughing Do your children influence your work at all? Yeah, they do. So when my eldest, I would always do a lot of things based on what she was learning. So I observed her in the, in the yard and she'd be wearing her like hooded towels and kids were just speaking on the painted stick. Like, we were painting the sticks. And she was like a little saucer. And it made me laugh so much. If you're a picture of her, then I'd draw a picture of her. And that point of time, we like all the questions you'd ask like, little picture, there's always speech bubbles, like we're going to Bunnings and all the random stuff. I always say. I'll just call it old memories for me. So I kind of I'm not very good at their photo albums. I've got them but I don't I find during a memory for me makes it more fun. So I'm actually my little nieces and nephews, etc. I've been drawing them at this point in their life for their birthdays. Oh, that's a little like keepsake of time for them. Yeah, that's so special. Yeah. So hope I've been, I would have to get a bit better at making people look like the people will be more I can see your real future for that. If you put that out into the world. There'll be so many people that would would pay for that for their kid. Yeah. Ah. Yeah, I find it hard because I cannot unless I know the person to helps me work out how to draw them. I find it tricky. Like I did my brother recently. And I found that hard, and he's someone that should really know how to draw. But I think about the life was pretty close. Yeah, I find that Yeah. I was like a certain kind of character. I draw like really, like long, tall, you know, big round heads. So I've got off sort of, you know, keep working on my character developments. Practicing just drawable. Do your children I mean, your daughter, does she? How does she feel about seeing yourself in those drawings? Is she get super excited? And yeah, she laughs Yeah. He or she regularly draws family pictures like and, you know, she goes through and changes their hair every year. She's a certain hairstyle. She'll draw characters like her or her makeup. She does. Yeah, it's a sort of a self. Kind of funny word. You know, that is like an exploration of yourself that you'll hear that point in time with who you are. So yeah, I think she doesn't find it embarrassing at the moment. So that's good. Yeah. That journey with a boyfriend and Darcy moon. Yeah. loves that. He loves seeing that too. Like he, he loves the art side of things like seeing the family pointing everyone out. And yeah, yeah. So hopefully I've just I'm not giving him a nod to just saying I got to be creative. So yeah, let's see, just find that see what happens. So I was doing my design work. I don't know if you've seen it, but it's all very, like, clean, you know, as design is like, clean vektory style. And I had a client, male at the old jail. And she's, I was doing their branding. And then she goes to me at one point, she's like, Oh, we want to have an illustrated map down of the jail and like, okay, cool. But I kept the first few designs I was doing was just much you know, I was doing it very graphic designer, like straight lines. Is that like the ad and make it more like you're like, we love it, but we want it to be like your style. Yeah. Okay, so that make it a little bit looser, which is like no, no, no, like, oh, you watercolor stuff you do on Instagram. We love that. So next minute, I just did inky watercolor. And it's exactly what she wanted. So she sort of made me realize that it doesn't have to be two separate entities anymore. Like it's not just design and illustration that can combine. It was realized really thankful to that because I just kept sort of thinking I'll just keep drawing for my own fun. And it's not going to cross over but majority of my work now They were going off. They want the illustrative aspect in their design. So, yes, she was the defining moment, that's for sure. I think it was about four or five years ago. And grateful because he sort of pushed me. Yeah. And a lot push because males are so odd, which is awesome. Oh, yeah. She kept she kept prodding, like, Oh, like this, you know, I like to try to wake up and I'm like, yeah, right, like people want this as cool. I have a project that I can't really say much about yet. Which is very exciting, because it's something will be super interesting, a massive learning curve for me. And yeah, I'm excited about doing it and lots of fun work. So that's happening next year, I was in the early early stages of planning now, I always have side projects going on, because that's a sound my brain rolls. Like, plans one day to do some project about the buildings. I love drawing as well. So I'm just slowly working out a project plan on that and how to attack that in the future. But I just keep that to the side, just slowly chipping away while I do my design work. Excellent. And always, always drawing. Just draw more Bianca. And every time I write that I have a little I have a little moment of like, oh, you know, yes, I can't let it go. I was like, Oh, I changed it to be accurate, just boring. But I just, I can't let go of that because it's exactly how I talk and how I've talked to myself like it's, it's me, so it makes me laugh. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us at the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Rose Dela Cruz New Zealand photographer S2 Ep37 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Rose Dela Cruz is a photographer from Auckland New Zealand and a mum of 1 daughter. Rose moved from her home country of the Philippines when she was 11 years old with her mum. Rose began her photography life in 2012 as a second shooter assisting at weddings as a bit of a hobby. At that time, she had no plans to peruse it as a career, just enjoying taking photos when her and her husband travelled. But when her daughter was born in 2020 she fell in love with capturing her. The seeds were sown and Rose began her photographic business, specializing in relaxed, candid and un-posed outdoor shoots, utilizing the surrounding beaches and “the golden hour” (about an hour before the sunset). Her favourite subjects are couples, expectant mothers and families. And she loves to make connections with her subjects and take time observing them, particularly the children. Rose also has a background in dancing, music, playing the guitar. She has an intense desire to create, in whatever form that my take. Rose's instagram https://www.instagram.com/journeybyrosephotography/ and new website www.journeybyrosephotography.com Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/artofbeingamum_podcast/ Music used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=yJPCGKTpSqyXh_l3zQfvDQ When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health and how children manifest in their hours. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bowhunting people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for tuning in today. It really is a pleasure to have you. My guest today is Rose Dela Cruz. Rose is a photographer from Auckland in New Zealand, and a mother of one daughter. Rose moved from her home country of the Philippines when she was 11 years old with her mum. She began her photography life in 2012 as a second shooter, assisting at weddings as a bit of a hobby. At that time, she had no plans to pursue it as a career, just enjoying taking photos when her and her husband traveled. But when her daughter was born in 2020, she fell in love with capturing her and the seeds were sown. Rose began her photographic business specializing in relaxed, candid and unposed outdoor shoots, utilizing the surrounding beaches and the golden hour, that hour before the sunset. Her favorite subjects are couples expectant mothers and families and she loves to make connections with her clients and take the time to observe them, particularly the children. Rose also has a background in dancing, music and playing the guitar. She has an intense desire to create in whatever form that may take. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Welcome along raise. Thanks so much for coming on today. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. Yeah, so you're over in New Zealand. In Auckland. Yeah. So what's your weather like there at the moment? Are you your summer is still in summer? Yes. Summer It's so hot. So humid. Reminds me of Philippines when when we were living there. Didn't you step out outside of the mall or somewhere cool. And it's just it hits here, you know? Yeah. Yeah. You came out of that air conditioned and you're like, Oh, yeah. Oh, dear. So how long have you been in New Zealand for you mentioned during the Philippines? Oh, we I came here when we came here. My mum and I when I was 11. So not really long time ago. And now I'm I'm 31. So 2020 years? Yeah. 20 years? Yep. Yeah. Pretty much pretty much grew up here. Yeah. Yeah. Very good. So tell me about your work. You're a photographer over there in New Zealand. Yeah. How long have you been out for? Um, I started back in 2012. But that was mostly as a hobby. I used to do, I used to be a second shooter for my friend down from 323 photography, and he does wedding photography. And I used to be a second shooter for him. So but it was mostly like I said, as a hobby. So I didn't really, you know, I, I didn't think I was gonna pursue it as a business. And so I had my baby. So for a long time, it was mostly you know, my when I got married my husband when we would travel. I will he would be the subject my photography, and then came along my baby. So she became the subject of my photography and I just fell in love with, you know, capturing her and I think I speak for most moms. When I say that once you have a baby, your cameras, your vet your videos are filled with that of your your children. Oh, absolutely. Do you so How old's your daughter? She's two. Yeah, right. Oh, fun time. So just trying to actually I know Oh, very talkative now. Yeah. It's a good age, though, isn't it when they can sort of they can, they can express their feelings to you a bit more. Yeah, there's a lot more. Yeah. Communications. Communication. Yeah. Which is, which is a relief because then, you know, she's able to she's not just crying all the time. And the more she's able to actually tell me what's bothering her or what she needs. So and as a mom, you know, you it's a relief to be able to provide exactly what you know. She's wanting and yeah, yeah, absolutely. So were you always sort of interested in photography? Like, did you grow up? Sort of surrounded? Yeah, artistic people or not? Well, I've always had the creative side, I've always loved like, dancing. Dancing is like, a part of me also. But right now, it's just not something that, you know, I've, I could, you know, spend time doing so growing up, like even art and stuff I've always loved creating. So in photography, you know, growing up with my friends, they we love taking photos of each other. But nothing like I said, growing up, nothing too serious. It was more of a hobby, but the more I, you know, I think it started when I first bought my DSLR which is, you know, like the, the big camera that I have, and it's, it's when I started to really, like started to learn about photography about composition. And like I said, doubt, my friend was a big part of that. He taught me a lot about photography. And being because I started in the wedding industry, it's there's a lot of detail to capture a lot of emotion, a lot of you know, it's, it's, there's a lot to learn from it. So it was a really huge part of my, how I develop my photography now. But now I I focus more on like families, expecting mums expecting parents, couples, and babies and toddlers. So that's where I kind of yeah, my passion grew into that. And yeah, I just love like watching the dynamics among families. Yeah, and children how they play and how they have so there's just so much joy like they find joy and everything and anything. So it's lovely to be able to capture that that innocence and just pure joy. Hmm. Yeah, that's it isn't like something we see is really mundane, or we take for granted. They're really drawn to something and they're like, fascinated by like tiny details. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. It's super interesting. Yeah. And I noticed I was looking on your Instagram feed you use the ocean a lot in your photos. Is that something that are connected to as well? Yeah, just the beach of I love the beach. I love going to the beach. My toddler loves the beach. I mean, if she while she sees the water she just kind of goes for it you know? And I had to kind of hold her in because otherwise she'll just keep going she loves so she it's there's just something about out another water that really calms me. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I guess you to your your subjects like you people that you've photography you're photographing, they probably quite relaxed too because it's you know, it's a space Yeah, most people feel comfortable in. They can just be themselves. Yeah, exactly. And that's it helps because because my style is more natural, more relaxed, it helps that ambience it helps set that tone. And I love doing it during sunset so I love I really love Golden Hour, which is about an hour before the sunset. That lighting is just because I use natural lighting in my in my photography. Even if I do indoors, I utilize natural lighting. So it's it's just there's something about that lighting during sunset. That's just so beautiful. Oh yeah, absolutely. And the funny thing is like, every, every time I do a sunset session, it's never the same. You think, you know, like, oh, the sunsets, you know, as the sunsets is the same lighting, but it's not it's just it's different. And it's that uniqueness. It's so beautiful. Yes, I love it. So even if two people have got like this roughly the same time, they're gonna look different then the same. Yeah, even the same place, same place, same time. Different, just different lighting. Yeah, it's cool, isn't it? It's really fascinating that people would love that too. Like, no one really wants to have exactly the same photos have a vision of what they what they'd like. And, but it turns out, not exactly the same. Even if it's similar. It's not exactly the same, which is, you know, it's lovely to see the differences sorry, forgive my lack of geographical knowledge. These are Auckland on the coasts. Now, well, we're kind of I have to, to be able to get to like the beaches. I have to drive quite a bit because we're like, I'm right. We're right in the center. I live in South Auckland, which the nearby beach like actual beach that I go to the west along the west coast is about maybe 15 minutes from here. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. And even the east coast beaches. It's about a safe half an hour. Yeah, right. Yeah. So your your though, hang on while I'm talking to you. I'm just going to bring him back up. Sorry. I'm really interested in when I talk to people I love to know them when the weather and all of a live. I'm like, I find it really fascinating. I see. So you're right up you're like right in. I say Oh, that would be cool place to be because you kind of like like you said you have access to Yeah, we're surrounded by beaches north. But yeah, in South Auckland, it's most like you have to do a better driving to get to. To the beaches. Yeah. But still, it's no it's not like, I don't know. It's not. It's not unaccessible you know, no, you can do it and it's not enraged. Yeah, that's the word. And like when when we were in Philippines, you have to drive six hours to a beach to make a trip out of it. It's not just and I think we're so blessed to be I were so blessed to be in New Zealand now where you know, you get to you could drive half an hour and get to a a wonderful beach, you know, a safe beach where the kids could play you know? Yeah, because not all people could have that. Oh, absolutely. I think I think when you're in a place like that you sort of take it for granted a little bit because he like it's so easy. But yeah, where I live I live well we're Brett 2530 minutes from the beach. But I also there's a really amazing swimming place about 20 minutes like on the way to the beach 20 minutes there. And it's called the little blue lake and it's this this naturally occurring like big like hole basically it's all got eight meter cliffs all around it and it's just this stunning place and we go there lately because it's been really hot we've been going there like every day I was just there last night for you. How lucky are we like we're in this amazing place it's 20 minutes down the road from our house like Yeah. Pretty special Yeah. So when you were pregnant were you still working doing your use second? What was sorry? What did you call it? Second cam second shooter. second shooter. Yeah, shooter. Yeah, we used to active taking photos but not so much. I think I stopped doing second shooting for weddings when I got married. It just after that things just got busy. You know, you adjust like with life as a wife, you know from being Single and and then you focus on much with work and because that was about around the time where I started working as well as you know, full time. So no, it's I kind of stopped and it became a hobby of whenever we would travel especially so my husband and I love traveling, especially during our, our, our anniversary, so we would go down to South Island, and we love to explore, you know, the different parts of South Island, and we would just do a lot of road trips. And I would do a lot of photography then like when we would travel. But other than that there was little or no time to actually pick up my camera. Yeah, yeah. So when you're when you had your daughter, and you and you sort of you, this renewed sort of passion for your photography came back, how long did it take you to decide to make a business out of it? I guess. It took me like, a solid year and a half. Yeah, I've been thinking about it. Like when my baby, when maybe we came along, you know, it's I had more more time being at home. And when she was a baby, you know, like I would hold her, I would hold her when she naps, she was a bit huge and settled that she didn't want to sleep in on her on her bassinet. And so there's a lot of time where I would hold her and so I would have a lot of ideas. You know, and if I decided that every time she would turn every month when it was on the 29th which is her birthday is 29th of January. So on the 29th Every month we would capture I do it like a photo shoot for her. So and I managed to get getting my husband to come do the photo shoot as well with us. He Yeah, so every month I would do that. And it became I just became like, my passion grew, you know, like you, you just I loved it. I was able to edit her photos, you know, as she was sleeping, I would do a lot of editing. So it really I think it became a good platform. For what I do now, if I didn't have that I don't think I would have had the same passion and same kind of standards with my work. Yeah, so that was a big part of it. When she was born. I had that though. It became like a project for me. Something that I had going for me, you know. So that was nice. And looking back, you know, now she has these photos, and I could look back on them and see how much she grew. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's really special. I'm gonna ask how did you go on the 29th of February when it wasn't a leap year? Actually, there was a leap year on where she was born. Oh, me. 20 Was it? Oh, I remember I think I think there was. And then the following year, there wasn't. So after she turned one year, I kind of stopped doing it, you know? Yeah. It became too much, you know, like, she would start to move around. And it was it became impossible to kind of have her stay still. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but added the added element then of movement, even when she was about nine months old when she was searching. Yes, exactly. I had to have the most ridiculous props, like I would get socks in front of the camera and just to try and entertain her better to look at the camera. So I've done it all like moms would say, you know, my clients would say I don't know how you would able to get my capture my my baby or my little one because they're so you know, they're, they want to explore, they can't just sit in front of the camera. And I tell them it's that's not my style. I my my two year old is loves to explore, she would not sit still. And I don't believe in kind of forcing, you know the kids to kind of sit there and stare at the camera and look at look at the camera to smile because the more they explore the more happy they are, the more natural they are. And then you don't need to guide them you just follow them around and kind of be ready when that when that moments there. And that's the thing. That's the challenge for me as a photographer is to catch those moments without them having to be conscious of the camera. Yeah, absolutely. And you'll see like their true personalities comes out because they're not they're not thinking about the camera in their face. They're just exploring and being living their life like normal. No, because when when you ask people to pose or when you ask people to smile, they kind of they post but they once you say okay, we'll take a five min. In a break, they relaxed. They tend to like that. And it's the most candid posts. And I like to. I like to take snaps of that too. Yeah. Yeah. When I say you know, it will take a five minute break. I don't actually mean that. I just wanted to relax and then I snapped them photos. But you know, you get a lot of you get a lot of good photos out of us. Oh, yeah, I bet. Yeah. Cuz we might see it like, as soon as, as soon as you're conscious of the camera is you do you tense up? And then you, you think, or how do I have to look? So you're thinking, you're trying to change how you look? You're not just being itself. So yeah, I have that. That's really, that's a great idea. When you're talking about doing your photos with your daughter, you said you had to have something going on for you. Was it important for you at that point to have something for yourself? Yeah, it was, I think, because especially when COVID hit, you know, and we were doing a lot of lockdown. It was important for me to have a project for myself. That is outside the routine of taking care of baby taking care of everything, you know, running the household. Yeah, you know, something that was for myself. A break? Because then once I, once I had that, it was kind of like I was able to, I don't know, be more relaxed. Yeah, when I take care of her, and she could feel that. Yeah, that's really that's a very common thing that moms talk about. If they've got something for themselves, then when they when they return to their parenting. They are, they're relaxed, they're less stressed. They've got more patients like all this, you know, you feel you feel like yourself, your needs have been met, so then it's easier to sort of meet other people's needs, I suppose. That makes Yeah, yeah. And you also mentioned dancing before, what style of dancing, like I used to help cop was because I was in the wedding industry. And I have a lot of friends during you know, that time. My age, it was the marrying age. Like, you know, 22 So I had a lot of friends. They're like 20s and 30s. So I would help them choreograph their first dance. But it was like a mixture. It was really a mixture. I did interpretive dancing. I at some point did hip hop, but now something like that, but it was a crucial part of me like growing up. I dance since I was able to walk. Yeah, right. Yeah, so it was it's kind of just been but I never turned that into a business. It was it was it was basically I'm I have this creativity that I need to kind of express and whether that be in dancing or music, because I play the guitar also, or just anything but the photography, I think that was really something where I could it worked a lot for our schedule. Because with my photography, I could whenever I have to drive out to the beaches to meet my clients and do a photo photo shoot there. I get time for myself, you know, when you drive out there when you drive back that hour of session where you're just you're not thinking about anything else. But you're, you know, the people in front of you their story there, you're able to share life with them in that hour that you meet them and get to know their family a little bit more. I think that's so special, but that time away from my family enables me to come back and sorry, that's okay. That's okay. enables me to come back home and just, I missed them. I missed them so much. And I'm excited to see them. Yeah. So it's like, you have this renewed energy when you come back. Yeah, brand new energy. Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. You mentioned about what works for your schedule. So how do you how do you schedule your clients around? Yes, so I do photoshoots and the weekends or at night, because sunset right now it's not until 845. So usually I come out at seven 730, something like that. So it works so well. And on weekends as my husband can watch her, and it's good time for them to bond. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm not at all worried. Yeah, you can relax and do your thing. You said you're not thinking about what's happening back at home. You're you're concentrating on in front of you. Yeah. Your mom still with you in in New Zealand? Yeah, she is. Yeah. Yeah. So she's for sometimes she would she would be with them. Yeah, she would be with her. We call her. Lola. Lola. Is grandma in Tagalog? Oh, that's special should be to have it with these two. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And obviously, she's I'm an I'm an only child. So she's, she loves spending time with her only granddaughter. Yeah. And you mentioned you've got your husband, obviously, you've got you've got some good support around you to be able to, to make it work. Yeah. I definitely, I don't think I'll be able, because my husband is my biggest support when it comes to my photography. He just pushes me to, you know, keep going and just encourages me, you know, and he loves that I do this. So it helps a lot when you have huge support like that. Because when you start a business, it's there's a lot of hurdles that come along the way. And it will really kind of question why would you do if you still want to keep going with what you're doing? But having support from your family from your friends it? Yeah. It's a big thing. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Do you ever sort of experience mum guilt or have any thoughts about mum guilt? That topic at all? Yeah, I, if, if we did, you know, I had a look at like, the definition of mom guilt. Because I've heard you know, you you hear once you become a mom, you hear you hear that term. It was a foreign concept to me before I had my baby, you know, and I looked it up answers, you know, where is that feeling when you feel like you haven't done enough or you're not doing? You think you're not doing everything? Right? Like there's something that that needs? That you're not? You, you feel like you're not doing everything right, that there's something missing? Yeah. So you have that feeling? And if by that definition, yes, I there, there have been moments, of course, where you feel like you you're not doing the right thing, because there's no manual that comes with, you know, being a first time parent. Everything is you to you. And even before when when I was pregnant, you know, you have friends, families, and they mean well, they give you advice, but you don't know exactly what it's like until the baby comes. And some things apply to you. That don't apply to other moms. Yeah, no, you do. Yeah. You deal with what comes in your child. Your children have different personalities as well. So you adapt to that. So yeah, there have been moments where I feel like oh, you don't know what I'm doing. But a big part of of the way we cope with that is our faith in God like my husband, I have such strong faith in God and it's it's a big part of how we parent and how we cope with the struggles and the challenges that come with it. I think all of us have. You know, we all have our different challenges when it comes to parenting with every stage. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then in terms of your work, do you sort of feel like I shouldn't be doing this? I should be home with my daughter, like, Does that ever crossed your mind? Or you're like, No, this is my thing. I know she's fine. It not at the moment, because of the schedule. With my photography, I think it's a nice balance. And that was one of the reasons why I'm not going to wedding photography. Just yet anyway, I'm not sure if I ever will. But with my with a solid photography, with my niche with families, and you know, maternity sessions, even like newborn and couples, like engagements I can I can do engagements that the type of sessions I do allows me to just be away from my family for a little bit of time. Majority of the work I do for my photography is actually either the editing or the admin around it. And I can do that at home. I can do the editing when she's napping when she's asleep at night. Yeah, I do the admin around the clock kind of around her schedule, basically. So it works well, because I have time away for a little bit from them. And I'm also able to do a little bit of work around her schedule. So right now it went because I'm not doing wedding photography, it works so well. But if I do, it's going to change a lot because wedding photography is a whole different ballgame where you're away for like the entire day. But even as I think about how I'm going to do that I need to prepare you know, food for her before I go out for the day. And then you don't come back until very late at night. Once the wedding has finished. And then even after the event, you have to backup the file. So if even as I do sessions now, after I come back, I always do backup. So you have to backup the raw files, save them in multiple storage, because the worst thing that can happen is have your photos deleted. You can't get back in time. But yeah, no film, there's no way to I mean, with digital files. Now, you know, there's some way to kind of retrieve some if you've lost them. But I don't ever want to go down that path because I have lost files before not for photography. But when I was studying, I would lose like reports and essays when my USB or laptop crashes. And it's not a good feeling. Oh, no, it is. It is the worst feeling in the world. I did it the other day. Actually, I was I don't know how I did. I was writing on a website. And then somehow I clicked back on my mouse and was like, how did I do that? And then it went back and everything just disappeared. So I thought I'll go forward and it'll be there. And it wasn't I was like, Oh, I just do it again. Anyway, I'm digressing. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. So the other thing I'd like to chat to moms about is identity. So how the concept of themselves might have changed when they became a mum. And you've sort of talked a little bit about it was really important for you to have that creative outlet, doing doing your photography when your daughter was younger, how did you sort of feel about that? That concept of identity change? It's, I mentioned before that like, my husband and I have such strong faith in God and my identity is also rooted on that. And yes, I'm a wife, I'm a mom. I'm a friend, I'm a daughter, but first and foremost, I'm a child of God. And when when I my beliefs, my belief system, my my faith in God, the truth, his truth from from the word it fuels everything that I do in fuel was how I I take care of my husband. It fuels how I become a mom For my two year old, it was how I do my craft, how I take care of the clients that I have in the work the standard of work that I do. So my identity because my identity is secure, and that it helps kind of it helps me figure out all the you know, the challenges, the how I navigate the different parts of my life? And, yeah, it's, it's definitely I would definitely say, you know, I have this thing, when I talk to my friends, where they asked, you know, you, you go from here to here, when you're engaged and from your from being engaged to being married, you go from here to there, it's like a step up. In terms of like, you know, more responsibilities, the different changes, you have to adapt to live a different lifestyle. And then when you become a parent, it's more like, there's this whole 360 Yeah, or one AB, just a huge turn of your life, that lifestyle is completely changed your your, so your identity definitely changes. Having a kid changes you, you know? Because suddenly, you don't look at everything the same way. Hmm. Even as you go. In every decisions that you make, you now have a little one to think of you now when you go to with my husband, I used to go to mall to, you know, around the malls in shopping. And we never really noticed parent rooms. When he became a parent. Yes. Like, where is the best parents? That kind of when, when you didn't have a kid kind of bypass you. Yeah. You just know about those things, right? No, it's not. And now when you go to when you travel somewhere, you used to just think about where you where your destination is. But now, as a mom, you think about all the different. Is there a playground nearby? Is there is it somewhere accessible? You know? Can I take my Prime Day? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So you're Yeah, you're definitely your identity definitely changes in terms of you don't think the same way. You have somebody that you care for now, it's not just about you. It's not just about your husband or your comfort. It's, it changes completely changes. So yeah, yeah, it's about navigating those identities, you know? Yeah. I like the way you put that, that your faith helps you. Helps you position like helps you navigate that you've always got some solid that you can come back to. Yeah, that's always there. Yeah, that's really nice. I love that. Yeah. That's because it's it's so it's so hard. It's all the changes that you have to go through it's hard enough as it is, it will definitely challenge like the way you think it helps you, man the learning. I mean, how much have I grown in the two years that I've had, you know, my toddler Yeah, it's it's just and the learning curve is like dude, like straight up in the air like you don't even get a warm up to it. It's just like, No when the during the day we when you chatting or you know, you you obviously have a connection to your clients, you don't just, you know, you don't just go snap, snap snap. You've talked about how you like to chat with them and get to know them a bit. Do you sort of find just say you've taken a photo of like a couple, like a pregnancy shot. And then you make them when they're, when they've got their baby? Do you find that people sort of share how they're going and how like the adjustments like do you do come across this sort of identity shift or change when you're chatting to your clients as well? Yeah, definitely. And because the you know, you I don't like to pry. I kind of they when they ask me a question about my life, or you know, I tell them about my kid I share stories about My baby and and they in turn share stories, you know how they're able to relate to that? And yeah, you see how it changes, it changed them. There's this connection also when you both know your parents, there's this kind of mutual understanding. And you know, you don't need to kind of say it, it's their fat connection where you know, you understand you understand exactly, you know, it might not be exactly the same story. Again, different babies different style of parenting, different exposures, different kinds of help that they get, or I get, but I think the main, the main thing that I always hear is the complete change of lifestyle. You know, it definitely changes you as a person. Yeah. Oh, gosh, it does. Amazing. It's hilarious. When you think back on what you used to do. I always say to people, I feel like I wasted so much time. Because when you have a child, it's like, any little bit you can get for yourself. Like, what can I do with my time? I still think that also I say I say to myself, I had so much time on my hand before I didn't even realize it. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? You just you didn't realize that? Nothing's free life, like, and then all of a sudden is like, oh, yeah, and now now it's not your schedule anymore. Yeah. Especially when you have little ones you know, it's definitely not your, like, time anymore. It's just you have to you cater, you cater first for your child, what do they need? How can I work around around this? So yeah, that's been, that's been an adjustment also, especially now that that pursued, you know, my photography, you do, you do need to. You can't just pick up your camera up and go and come back and then do all the other work that you need to do. Right. When you want to do them. You have to work around your baby schedule, because there he's she's still my priority. She's, you know? Yeah, yeah, that's it. And it's not like she can wait, like, you know, you just stay there while I do my thing. You'll be like, this doesn't sit there. Okay. I just need to backup my files. And then add that Do you understand this? You'll just look at me and say, milk come on priorities from priority. She'll point at the cupboards and say, yum, yeah. Which is food. And, okay, I'm gonna have to do this later because she's a sweetheart Can I ask you a little bit about having grown up in the Philippines will only listen to you were a little bit. What's the culture there like in terms of mothering? I was speaking to a lady the other day, who's from her, she's from China. And she said, mums in China, maybe not so much these days, but certainly in like her mum's era, their job was just to look after the children and look after the family, they didn't have any sort of interests for themselves. They weren't pursuing, you know, art or music. Their job was just to look after the family. Is there any sort of anything you can share around that in relation to the Philippines? What sort of culturally like mother's roles would have been? Yeah, we are very communal people like we we a lot you would see when you go to the Philippines, you will see a lot of families like living together with their in laws, or even even if they're not living together in the same house. Their houses are pretty much nearby. Like right next to each other. Yeah. So not all, but there's a lot like that. And you know how there's that saying, you know, you you raise your kid. What is that saying? Makes you feel a village? Yeah, it takes a village to raise this kid. Yes. That's exactly like Philippines. Yeah, you have that village. Everyone kind of helps out. Um, and they the concept of, you know, sleeping in a separate room is very, it's not popular there. One because sometimes the circumstances don't allow you it's Philippines is is not like New Zealand where you you have the luxury sometimes of having multiple rooms in the house sometimes, you know, you go into provinces and there's just one room and all of the families stay there. And that's the kind of, you know, for a lot of families that's the reality that they have to deal with. So yeah, co sleeping is not an option. I mean, you know, it's it's the only option. Yeah. And then so the kind of parenting that they have it's a lot of a lot of people help out which is a good thing which you get a mums get a lot of support in that sense. They can also have help you know, they can they sometimes have their their animals or their their own moms that come like almost every day that helped you know, who can help them out? Yes. How am I just making sure that we know he's still there. And this is kind of like it I mean, this this type of I guess, as as we talk and she's in the background, that's kind of how our community that's that's it. So you can't you engage them in every activity. They are they socialize like that there. They grew up there with their cousins and their their siblings together. They go out of the house and all the kids are on the street. Yeah, even even now, even at the age of having cell phones and, you know, computers, you still I love that about the Philippines, you go out of the house, and they're still there playing. Yeah, you see the neighbors kids? And yeah, because it's the kind of environment it's the kind of community that they have. Probably not right now with COVID, though. No. Oh, different story, hi, all different stories, or when the pandemic there and it's completely and completely changed the world. And on that to your daughters, too. So you've basically she the only life that she's known is during a pandemic, like that would have been challenging for you. I mean, you did mention before about having your, you know, your photography is sort of your outlet, during the pandemic, but literally her life has only existed during the pandemic, like that's extraordinary thing to think of, isn't it? Yeah. It's yeah, let's put it this way. We had so many lock downs. And then the last lap locked down and it's the, the longest to my husband for a year he's been telling me you know, I think we should we should build the deck, you know, just for the little one. I keep saying no, I'm not back at work. Yeah, it's a huge investment. I don't think we should go for it. And then after that locked down, I said to him, let's contact somebody to build the deck, because this is to go out and expel all that energy. She just needs to be out out of the house. Let's build that back. Oh, yeah. That's it in a nutshell. Isn't it? Really? Yeah. They need to you need she needs to explore she needs to play with other kids. And yeah, they need that stimulation. Otherwise you as a mom go crazy. Oh, yeah. It's like cabin fever. You're just trapped Correct. Right now I've got a list of all they'll be nice to do, you know, list for my photography. One of the main thing that I want to I want to launch go for it to go live is my website. I mean, I've been wanting to have a website to showcase all of my work there, you know, in one place, because right now I have my Instagram and I have my Facebook page, but I'm working on my website. Yeah, but I'm gonna throw in that maybe podcast in the future. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. So this is the thing, isn't it? Like, I've no, there's no, when you're in your creative person, like, you've talked about your dancing and guitar and photography, like, there's no limits to it, you know, if you want something, just do it, you know? Oh, great. Yeah, absolutely. And I think creative people are really good at doing that. Just giving things a try, you know? Yeah. And mostly without expectation, you can just try something because you think you want to try it, you know? And if it works, it works. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. And it's like, oh, I tried. You know, yeah, you can't you don't look back and say, what if? You know, the what ifs? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's another thing with now I'm a mom, I'm able to stay at home with my that's another thing why I decided to pursue my photography is i, it enables me to stay with her. Yeah, you know, it's not it's, I don't do it only for the financial reasons. But I can't ignore the fact that it also helps. So it's, you know, this is the timeout I have when I was working before my photography, I always wondered, oh, what would it be like to you know, have my own photography business, but like I said to you, it was more of a hobby thing, I was never going to turn this into a business one because I was too scared to I was more comfortable with just shooting for myself, then also providing it, you know, professionally asked for clients to have that expectations. But now I'm in the season of my life where if I have the courage, you can actually you're able to do it. You know, it gives me that platform, because now I have the time. Whereas before, it's mostly Oh, one day, maybe? Yeah. Whereas now, I'm in it, you know? Yeah. That's awesome. Good on. Yeah. That's good. You gave me opportunities they gave me you know, the opportunity to come meet you and talk to you. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I tend to, you know, meet a lot of people that I wouldn't have met through my photography, and that alone is a blessing to me. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I feel like that with this podcast, like, I'm talking to people that I would have had no reason to talk to you ever before. And it's wonderful meeting such amazing women, and learning so much. Like I love learning, particularly about, like, I love photography, I used to, I never did it professionally. But I used to take, do photos for weddings and stuff back in the day where it was on film. And I love the details of stuff like I was really drawn to, you know, like, the photos of the, you know, rings and like people's expressions, watching the wedding and things like that. I loved that. But it was just, you know, a hobby that I did a couple for friends, but my main thing is easic. So, when I talked to artists, it's so inspiring for me, because I'm like, Oh, I could give that. Like it's just, it's opened up all these new new ideas for me, and just fun things I can try for myself and learning. I really, really enjoy it. It's so much fun. That's good, because you need you do need that outlet. Hmm, absolutely. Yeah. Even if it's, I mean, some people resort to like cooking or baking and other people and to trying out different things that they've never tried before, or like me something that they've always wanted to try but they have been so afraid to try but also don't have the time nor enough motivation to actually pursue it. Yeah, and now and now that I do you know, I find and and my husband said you know, because I've been going back and forth on deciding whether to pursue you know, to pursue this business or not. And he said to me, you know, at least you won't have to look back and said you didn't try if it didn't work out then didn't work out it was a time in your life where you had you know, you were able to just try something new and just try and enjoy it just try enjoy the process all the things that you learn from it and I have been learning so much so much and I'm sure you have to as you started this journey Yeah. Oh, that's great. And like having the support like you said before, that's just you know, you can't you can't do things without having someone like that. Yeah, yeah, no, you can. Yeah, I put on him. You, thanks so much for coming on. It's been such a lovely chat this morning. And it's lovely to have some of your daughter's energies with Jana, thank you for having us. I'm sorry, I couldn't stay in just the one room and oh my lord, in order to oh, I mean, this is thing that we need people to. It's mum life, isn't it? It's what we do. The realities of being having to try and work. That's it, isn't it? But we make it work, don't make it work, whatever works. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Elise Addlem Australian philosopher + feminist S2 Ep75 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Today I am very pleased to welcome Elise Addlem to the podcast, a philosopher and feminist based in Europe, and a mum of 1. Elise is an Australian philosophy educator with a background in academic philosophy (MA) and Early Childhood Education. After teaching philosophy at an academic level and to the public, and working with kids, Elise became passionate about public philosophy. In particular, she is developing resources and courses on feminism, neoliberalism and general philosophy for parents. She believes that philosophical and intersectional feminism connects directly to our everyday, lived experience. Elise is passionate about sharing her ideas and encouraging others to challenge norms and think critically, and putting ideas into practise in realistic and achievable ways ... and bring to the public the academic ideas without the condescension and jargon. Connect with Elise Instagram / YouTube / Website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mothers work is influenced by their children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for tuning in. It's a pleasure to have you back if you're a regular listener. And if this is your first time, welcome. It is such a pleasure to have you here. Today I'm pleased to welcome Elise Adlam to the podcast. Elise is a philosopher, and a feminist based in Europe, and she's a mom of one. Elise is an Australian philosophy educator with a background in academic philosophy, and early childhood education. After teaching philosophy at an academic level, and to the public, and working with kids, Elise became passionate about public philosophy. In particular, she's developing resources and courses on feminism, neoliberalism, and general philosophy, parents, she believes that philosophical and intersectional feminism connects directly to our everyday lived experiences. Elise is passionate about sharing her ideas, and encouraging others to challenge the norms and to think critically. And to put those ideas into practice in realistic and achievable ways. And to bring to the public the academic ideas. Without the condescension and jargon. I discovered Elise by Instagram. And I really resonate with her thoughts, and her opinions and also the ways that she shares these. And I really hope you enjoy hearing from her today. And I encourage you to check her out on Instagram, her YouTube and her website. The music used on today's podcast is from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, M Anderson, and her husband, John, thanks so much for tuning in. I really hope you enjoy today's chat. Thanks so much for coming on. At least it's a real pleasure to meet you and to welcome you today. You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me on your Instagram. I'm sure you might be on other platforms. But I've come across you on Instagram. Yeah, what you're doing is awesome. And I just had to have you on the show. We're not going to spin it that you're an artist of any kind. Yeah, because you do creative to get your point across. But I just wanted to have you on because you're one of those people I really resonate with. I really love what you're sharing. And the way you share it too. It's very concise and straightforward. So without me blabbing on can you tell us what your sort of pedagogy and childcare? Your your? Yeah, like your one on one? Yeah. Yeah. So basically, my background is in childcare, I worked with kids for quite a long time. I studied it a little bit. And then I worked as a nanny for a long time. And that was at the same time as studying for a lot of years, I was studying philosophy. So I did my undergrad degree, that took me a long time, then I did my honours that we have in Australia. And then I did my masters overseas. And so yes, I was really interested in academia. But as I went on, I really came to become more interested in what I like to call public philosophy. So basically bringing philosophical ideas to the public. And I thought it was really important to do that in a way that's digestible in a way that people can understand. Because often it seems like philosophy is something that's really removed from society and people will purposely or not be talking about things in a way that's really hard for people to understand. I think that it doesn't need to be that way. And I really wanted to try and communicate things to people in a way that makes sense. Because why do we have all these big ideas, these ideas about society if we can't communicate them, as well as that? When I worked with kids, and then when I became a mother, I really got focused on this idea of how we can communicate these ideas to children and to parents because I think the children have these amazing minds where they're so so open minded. They don't have these constructs in their minds yet, like we come to Have which societally given to us, and which we are given through certain binary ideas through the schooling system, and just through the progression of, I guess how our, how our minds grow. So, yeah, that came to be really interesting to me. As well as that, obviously, the as well as that political philosophy and ethics is really important to me. And, obviously, so many problems with the capitalist system with patriarchy, and things like that affects parents, particularly mothers. And so all of that I kind of try and bring together in this way that I can, yeah, I can share with people on social media. What sort of got you first got, and it's interesting. I didn't realize you're in childcare before. That's my I was in childcare for nine years. Now, I'm in the kindy system. So I'm sort of switched into. Yeah, it's very interesting. But what got you interested in philosophy? Do you remember sort of what was the Yeah, I do. I do. So yeah, the childcare thing. I mean, to be honest, that was a way for me, because I always love kids. That was a way for me to work while studying because I mean, to be honest, I just didn't want to do retail or something like that. For years. I loved working with kids. And I thought, why not do that at the same time. And it's such meaningful work. It's really difficult work. But it's so meaningful, and impactful with the philosophy, so I grew up in a working class background, and I didn't even know philosophy existed until I went to uni. I was the first one to go to uni, my family. I'm the oldest of my siblings, my sister also ended up going. But yeah, I discovered it before that I was really interested in literature and writing. And they're really linked, I think, because it's both to do with ideas. So yeah, I took that first philosophy class in first year, and I kind of had my mind blown. I thought, well, you can talk about all these ideas and think about things. And then it took me a few years to sort of realize, yeah, this is something I'm really interested in and want to do. But it is quite a, it's quite a tough area to be in, in the, in the sense that I mean, you probably know, within neoliberalization of education, all levels of education, higher education, really, the number of positions in the humanities departments is very, very low. And like, the grind for academics is really, really hard. And so yeah, so actually, I'm completely obsessed with it. But I'm still wondering, Am I going to go on and do my PhD? I think I have this pardon me, you know, this academic part of me that really wants that, because that's like, you know, like to have that recognition from academia that I was trying so hard in. On the other hand, after I had my daughter, I really, you know, I thought, I don't want that life. I don't want the life where I'm just grinding away, barely seeing my daughter. And if we have more kids having to move everywhere, just for these jobs where you barely get paid anything. You don't have job security. So yeah. I think that I kind of had to work through my ideas of what it means to do philosophy. And and yeah, and I think this idea of public philosophy is kind of a white assault that I like that it's like, yeah, you're not completely consumed by that. Academia world where at night, it's almost like the outside world doesn't exist. You go to high school, you go to in you go to uni, and you stay in this system forever. You've come. Like, honestly, I had a few years out of it anyway. Because I, I went, I went straight from school to uni. And then I kind of had, I realized that because I initially thought I wanted to the journalism then I kind of dropped out ahead a few years and then I went back. And I kind of did it a slow way. Just because I had to work and things like this as well, you know, like, and then yeah, I, but what I've observed and experience with people, there's this there's a really insular quality to academia. I don't know about other departments, but particularly in philosophy, maybe because it's to do with ideas. It can become really abstract. And sometimes the things you hear are just not related to people's real lives, you know, like, there will be people should do this, or people should behave this way. It's just not recognizing the real nature of life, the real struggles people go through, you know, like, because there is a elitist quality to university, and there are still a lot of privileged people there. Mostly, of course, white men, especially philosophy has mostly white men. And I mean, I'm a white woman, you know, I'm not, I'm not a black or brown woman, I'm, I live in a smaller body. So I also don't experience I'm able bodied. So you know, even having said all of that, I feel like I experienced a lot of I don't know whether I would call, I wouldn't call it discrimination, but just little microaggressions and things like that, you know, you feel it, you feel that you're not the main type of person. So, yeah, so that's another one of the reasons why I think I maybe don't suit that, huh. Yeah. And like you said before, there can be this sort of particular way of speaking, like you said, whether it's deliberate or not, it's almost like a condescending way that like, you don't know this. So I'm going to say, I really, really dislike this. And I admit that I drank the Kool Aid as an undergrad. Because I think because when you're learning and you're thinking, wow, this is so exciting, I need to be, I need to be that person that I admire you who can talk in this way. So using all these neologisms, all the all these new words that have been made up? And, yes, sometimes, for sure, that can be helpful for the theory. But if you've made up a term, you can also then explain what that term means. And yeah, I just think, I guess that some, some people are, you know, really made for theorizing, and some people are made for teaching. And I feel like maybe teaching is my, my thing. You've got a very sort of down to earth approach with that, like, you can see that it's an important thing. And we've all got to, you know, challenge these, the norms, and this critical thinking is really important. But then you actually have to be able to put into practicing in your life in a realistic way. You can't just be barking theories and ideas at people. To be honest, yeah, I mean, some people do do that. And it frustrates me a lot. This is one gripe I have, of course, it's not everyone. There are some fantastic people there. And, you know, some just amazing people that are so down to earth, and that really are fantastic teachers and are able to communicate things in a really clear way. But there are also a lot of people that just aren't interested in doing that, to be honest. They're not interested in the real world in there. Yeah, exactly. Well, to be honest, the all the ones you know that the other ones they've never been in the real world things you hear from people, you know, these older men who their father was in academia, then they were in academia, and they literally maybe have never caught public transport. Or they've never, you know, they've never done a job, they've never had to, you know, serve someone at a takeaway plate, or MCAS or something, or they've never had to, you know, get yelled at by a boss in retail, or you know, just those everyday things that are part of life for most people. And so then to then theorize what a good life is, or what we need to fix in the world. Wanted to ask you about you mentioned Neo liberalism, and that's something that you do know about a lot on your Instagram. Can you explain to people who might not be familiar with what it's about? Of course, yeah. So I think it's important first to talk about what liberalism liberalism is, and then neoliberalism came after. So liberalism, generally came from the enlightenment. So this was a movement in France, in Germany in the UK, in the 17th century, that focused on the liberation of people from a kind of, I guess, cloud of closed thinking now. The idea was that we should be free to To govern our own lives. So, thinkers like Immanuel Kant, John Jacques Rousseau, who some people might have heard of, they had these ideas that people should be able to govern their own lives, they should be able to choose what they do insofar as it doesn't hurt, but as long as it doesn't hurt other people. And importantly, they should be free to think, in a free way, not restrained by outside ideas. Importantly, at this time, their context was a religious society. So it's important to mention that we're still religious men. And this is the interesting thing, perhaps because of the times, but they, they believe that these rules shouldn't govern all of society. So that was super important to be. So to have your thoughts led by reasoning, by thinking does this make sense? Instead of buy doctrine from the church. So this was an enormous moment, because really, at the time, you know, people still couldn't read. So a lot of people still couldn't read, only the elite could read. So that means that if you were told something by a religious leader, that is the truth, you didn't come to truth, by some sort of scientific process or some process of reasoning, it was just what you were told. So this was a huge, huge moment. Then we also have lived in come to have liberalism as a political system. So this is a system in which in which people should be free to do what, sorry, people should be free to do what they want. Or sorry, I'll say it again, people should be free to do what they want, insofar as it doesn't hurt other people. And people should have their rights protected to be free. Now, neoliberalism then, is a political system that began in the 1980s. So in America, you had Ronald Reagan in the UK had Margaret Thatcher, who people probably might have heard of these people's names, because they're pretty important. Australia, I don't remember who we had. So basically, they were really pushing for everything to be privatized. The idea of near liberalisation is that anything that is owned by the government, any sort of welfare state, so a welfare state is like, where the where the government will give people a pension, where they'll give people disability payment, they'll give people payment, if they are without a job, they will give and all these other things like they will fund the schooling system fund, hospitals, even some things we don't even think about, like the Postal Service, ambulances, everything that is public. The neoliberal process, made all of these things private. So that means that companies, some, some rich person bought it. And then that is now owned by a private person. That means that there's no longer this sort of idea that it's a public good, or it's something that everyone should be able to use just because they live in this society. Rather, it will be something that you have to pay for, and that will be based on whatever the company decides. So this process was a really ideological one. And it meant that so many things were privatized, to varying extents. So we've seen the we see in the UK, and particularly in America that so so many things have been privatized, that society comes to disintegrate. So in Australia as well, we had it. But America is really kind of the hallmark of this because in America, even things like the Postal Service has started to be privatized, we see that the schooling system has just been absolutely gutted. And you know, teachers even have to pay for their own resources and things like this sometimes. The other important thing that I do talk about a lot. I hope I'm not explaining in too much detail. No, this is great. Okay, so the other thing that's really central to this that I love talking about is the idea of the neoliberal individual. So going back to the enlightenment, the idea of individualism is really invented, at least in Western thought. So like I said before, enlightenment thinking and liberalism was based on this idea that we should be able to be free as individuals. So then we start to have this idea of an individual, I think that now we probably don't even think about it because, you know, we just think we're all people. We're all separated. But this is actually a really cultural thing and a really I really within our historical context, some societies today don't have this idea, you know, they're more collective societies they don't think always i. So this was brought to light through this enlightenment process. And this kind of shows how these ideas do affect real life, because first of all these thinkers came up with them, then they come to be proliferated, or, or they reach the world, through governments and through leaders through schooling. And eventually, it becomes common sense thinking that we are just all these individuals who are separated from one another. And the most important thing is that I get to choose what I do, and I am in competition with you. In neoliberalism, this becomes even harsher. So like, like I said, before, under neoliberalism, there's really this idea that the government should not infringe upon our rights. Because if the government is doing anything to it, if the government is telling us anything to do, then that is immediately an infringement upon our rights. And it's interesting, because in philosophy, we have these two ideas. They're called positive and negative freedom. So positive freedom is my ability to act. So I am free to do, I'm free to do something. Negative freedom is something that was completely forgotten in neoliberalism. But it's something that's also really important, it's when you are given some restrictions that allow you to be more free. So for example, they protect you. So for example, you can really think about it, I think, a really easy way is when you think about a toddler, right? With a toddler we're always trying to do, we were always having to protect them from doing certain things, or we're always having to sort of given the conditions in which they can flourish. Because if that if they are just if they're just allowed to do anything ever actually, they can't develop and they can't become self governing people. Because they can't become people that can look after themselves as human beings that you need these restrictions on yourself. So other ways. Other things that would be examples of negative freedoms are like a schooling system, you have to, you have to learn this in this, these in these things, mathematics, reading, and things like that. So that you will actually be able to be more free in the world, because you have then have this logical understanding of how things work. You can read and write, and so you can manage yourself in the world. Neoliberalism kind of completely did away with this idea. And I think that that's a real detriment. So everything is rather just seen as a intervening on an individual who, who really needs to be deciding 100% for themselves all the time, what they should do. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's also Yeah, it's also a huge mistake, because of course, we are still living in a society and we, everyone has roads, right? There's still a push for good. There's still a social thing, we still always have stuff that is part of society that actually taxes and the government has given us. So I think it's kind of misunderstanding the world. But yeah, this is so important to me, because I just think that this really impacts every everything we do, really every part of our lives. It seems to me, sorry, that's not a way to start a sentence that sounds like I'm gonna say something really profound, but I'm not. I've never really learned about this in like a steady kind of way like I'm aware of. But I sort of find it so interesting that it seemed to start out as a good idea that you question things and you learn things, but then at some point, it's just gone to the extreme kind of like, when did it become a good idea not to support people in our society that need help, like, yeah, it just and that's, I think worth, like Thatcher has got such a poor reputation in a lot of cultures. Yeah, in a lot of circles, because she just, it was like, I don't know if I enjoyed watching her portrayal on the crown on that series. Yeah, it was fantastic. Ryan, I really liked it. If anyone wants to learn about Aaron in an accessible way, that's a really good introduction. It's not all true, obviously. But I also I also really enjoyed that because I think they did portray really well. How Yeah, kind of the her really special nature because she was a very special person, I think an interesting political figure, not one that I agree with a lot. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely an interesting path for now. And it was interesting to see the conflict between, you know, two women I'm taking this in a different direction now. But in the term feminism, something that I'm really all over I love the other day, it seems like the other day because I happen so quickly. But when, when Liz truss became prime minister in the Yeah. And everyone was like, Oh, it's so it's a woman, we should all be so happy. And I felt like saying, but will we all happy with, you know, Thatcher? And she was yeah, you know, this this? I don't know. Absolutely universal. I mean, just because it's a woman. You know, it's really a simplification, I think. And yeah, I really agree with you. I'm exactly the same. I think just because it's a woman, it doesn't mean it's suddenly going to be fantastic. And I we still have, and this is the importance of I think when when feminists are being intersectional, which has, you know, this idea that we look at all these different ways that people are disempowered, different power structures. So yeah, she's a woman. But she's already within this power system. You know, so she and she already has these values. So, you know, she just because she's a woman, doesn't mean that she's immediately going to stand up for women stand up for black and brown women stand up for trans women, you know, urge poor women? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I thought, yeah, there was a lot of that. That was funny. That was a funny, funny few weeks in the UK, wasn't it? My gosh, I listen to BBC Radio, like at night. Overnight, I have an EN. And gee whiz, even they were just, you know, for country that everything's meant to be proper and seem to be right from the Yeah, I? Yeah. Gosh, I mean, I think my husband and I were talking about a lot. And we, I don't know, I kind of have an idea that it's like a bit of a falling empire. Like in the, in the past, you know, it was this world empire that really, obviously colonized everywhere, you know, an empire and in a terrible sense, usually empires a lack of that they do a lot of colonizing and all these terrible things. But yeah, it was an empire. And you know, they thought, the leader of progression and it's not that anymore, and it's interesting. Yeah, it's not in a very good situation. So nearly realism, bad putting it? We don't like it. We don't like it. Yeah. What, what's the opposite to that? Is there a term that Yeah, yeah, tell me all about that. Look, I never, I never like to just prescribe and say, Look, this is 100%, what we should do, we always say, to look at the individual conditions of a particular society. So every society is different. But in general, I argue that a social welfare system would be much better for a system of government where there are these basic protections for everyone. So all these things we talked about. So you know, childcare would be affordable, the minimum wage would be really high so that everyone can afford to live. Health care would be really accessible to everyone, there'll be a universal health care system. They wouldn't schooling wouldn't have public and private schooling, you would just have a schooling system that was accessible to everyone. There would be less of a gap between rich and poor. And at the level of decide ideology, or the idea of the individual, there would be less of a sense that we all need to be completely separate from one another, and more of a sense that we do live in a collective and that we are as human beings, in our very nature. We are collective beings and that we do flourish, we live better lives when we're more connected to one another. So there would also be these grassroots and bigger level structures that really facilitate us always connecting with people. I think that then people would also be flourishing, they'd be leading better lives, but they would also hopefully be less lonely and less isolated. Hmm, yeah. Yeah, this sort of it's such a weird Student thing, isn't it that we've all got to be in tune, we've lost this sense of, you know, it takes a village, you know, that still rings dry. So many countries, it literally does take a village because you've got everyone around you look at even in even my husband's culture, he's not Australian. I just see how people behave. And it's so different. You know, like in Australia, we kind of have this idea that we'll all help each other. And it's kind of true. But when I see it in these small collective cultures, it's just a totally different thing. Like you don't even I don't know you, you don't people don't even think about it. It's just part of life, you know, that you everyone's always helping one another. You never really feel alone. Sometimes it's the opposite, you know, you feel feel smothered by people. But I don't know, even things like, look, I think when it comes to being a mother, which is obviously something that both you and I are really interested in being a mother, you know, mothers are so isolated. In Australia, America, Canada, these so called Western countries, because we've been told we have to do it all alone, it doesn't make any sense. Even. You know, we have that these ideas that grandparents, you know, they shouldn't be around the family all the time. And I'm not I'm not saying that they have to have to be some slave to their grandchild or something. You know, everyone has their individual circumstances. But but you know, that other cultures do have a different idea of family where, where you're just always together and you're, you're coming popping in and out. It's not the scheduled thing where you know, you're like, Okay, well, Grandma will look after you on set at Saturday from two to four. And then I don't know, it's more just like, more of a floor. Yeah. So yeah, I think we've kind of gone wrong in that way. It's really, it's really sad thing. Yeah, I can, I mean, people are becoming more aware. And I think it's something we can change, you know, you know, if we, if we recognize a problem, I think we can start to change it. Absolutely. And that's what I love about this, like, you know, so many people on social media, and through podcasts, and all sorts of things that are saying how they feel about things, and questioning, you know, just because we've always done this a certain way. Why do we have to keep doing it this way, is really important. The really important thing is we haven't always done it this way. And this is something that is really, really what happens with ideology, you know, an idea becomes the main idea about something. And then the best the way it works, the best is that everyone thinks, well, we've always done this, you know, I've heard people say, like, with capitalism, a woman and older woman said to me, we've always done it this way. University has always been, you know, really expensive. And I said to her in your life, it was free. Like, in your own life, not not only so it's amazing in the cultural imagination, how we can forget. Yes, that is very true. That is a good point. Yeah. And it's almost like, whatever idea is at the forefront of the time, that that idea wants us to forget everything else. Sort of going down. Yeah. Yeah. No. with critical thinking, because you know, this idea of thinking about things and picking apart why something is the way it is, particularly Yeah, for kids because I think that you know, if they grow up always picking things apart. I hope that then there'll be a little bit less, like you said, brainwashed or a little bit less accepting of everything. Yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. Talk about this idea of introducing children to these to the, to the notion of critical thinking and to social what is you had something really good on your Instagram? Social justice? Oh, social justice concepts? Yeah. I said, You should introduce them from the very beginning, rather than sort of when they're old enough to what we think old enough to understand them. Yeah, I guess my big thing for me is that we can really break this down into ways that kids can understand whether because, yeah, I worked with kids a lot. I have my own kid. And I think it's really fun to think about for me as a challenge. Think about how we can break them down into things Kids will understand. So you really got to bring them to their level. So, yeah, if we're going to talk about social justice concepts with little kids say toddlers, we got to think, what are we really talking about with social justice? You know, we're talking about inequalities in the world and the way that some people are prejudiced against other people. Some people don't get as good a life as other people. We're really talking about what's fair, aren't we, that's the basis and you know, actually, we talk all the time to kids about what's fair, anyway, because we're really, we're teaching them this, they don't sort of come out and have an idea we anyway, we have to teach them. So why not then bring it up already, you know, in ways, you know, when I've talked to people, um, for example, on my Instagram, I've collaborated a bit with this wonderful woman Kinesia, and she does work on anti racism. And she says that, you, you, you need to actually name the things you like pretending, not saying black, not saying that kid is black, that's not going to help anyone, if they are black. And there are differences, we need to point them out and point out how they're beautiful. And point out how they're great and interesting. So you know, from the very beginning, when we're reading books with kids, make sure that they're diverse books and say, Look, you know, that mommy has white skin, that Daddy has black skin, that mommy has red hair, that day has brown hair, it's sort of you know, everyone's different. And that's what's special about us. And that's what's beautiful. And then you can point out instances, you know, in the playground of like, people being, I don't know, maybe, you know, that kid was being mean to that other kid, because they're smaller than them. That's not nice. Because just because they're bigger than them, that doesn't mean that they should be allowed to push the person around. And they you're talking about power structures? Yeah, but it's not. Yeah, I think I'm not being naive when I say that all these things are connected, I think that you're, you're setting them up to think about these things. And I just think that children are so so capable of thinking, you know, the questions they come up with are just the most amazing questions. So we should just really kind of feed into that. Yeah. And, and you're right, like kids, they don't come out. Like, we were the same, you know, we were little the world has formed us into who we are by, you know, the concepts in the world about racism, and, you know, all those sorts of negative judgment of other people. Yeah. And if we can sort of be aware of that, and I don't know, not to that to our kids like, exactly, putting it. Yeah, like, Yeah, I think we can never be, you know, part of human nature is to group ourselves. That is something which, you know, I think there's always going to be, it's always going to be a process of learning and unlearning, and it's never going to be a thing where I'm like, now I don't, now I'm not prejudiced against anyone. I like to kind of pull myself I mean, take it that I'm always racist, you know, I have internally not on purpose, but I'm always gonna have inside me, or I'm always I always have misogynistic ideas. So I always have ideas about men and women that are based on their gender that I've learned, because these are internal, we're always going to kind of have them to a certain extent. And as much as we try for our kids, they will have different prejudices, or the same ones that continue. So it's also teaching them to constantly question those as well. And to say, it's not that not to feel guilty not to say that I'm a bad person, because of this, that doesn't help anyone. But just to say, look, I'm not perfect, no one is perfect, but we're trying to build a better world. And let's kind of all be vulnerable in saying that none of us you know, none of us have pure thoughts or something like this, you know, but we're all we're trying. Yeah, we were all doing our best. Exactly. We're all doing our best, be realistic and just try our best. Yeah, I think that children are capable of, you know, of taking on the complexity of the world. And you know, like, yeah, you're not gonna say, you're not gonna make it kids obsess about it, or something. You're not gonna be like, but also we, you know, and this is something that it's hard for all of us. It's hard for me, children are people and they're, you know, they have all different emotions, like everyone, they can't be happy all the time. And, you know, so it's not a bad thing that they feel sad. And I think when when we grew up often, there was this idea that you just shouldn't point these things out. You shouldn't talk about it. Yeah, at least where I grew up, and yeah, and yeah, but If you didn't see it, right, like, as a kid, you're kind of confused because you're like, why someone talking about this stuff? And then you think it's a bad thing to even address or talk about, I kind of feel like we're living in a different context now, because we live in a much more global society. And, you know, we have access, and our kids have access to people from all over the world via the internet, and, and I kind of knew that they might grow up having a more global sense. And having said that, yeah, I think the only way things really change in the end is kind of at a smaller level. So that's it, isn't it? Yeah. But I was gonna rely on it today, we decided it was a good idea not to use plastic straws. And on the, you know, it's just one straw said, you know, 13 million people, you know, so it's like, every single person and do something. And yeah, you know, it does start with little actions. And I don't think exactly, the value of those. Exactly. I'm always kind of the arguing that the minute that it needs to be we need to as individuals push for structural change, we need to stop, you know, governments and big companies from doing the things that they are because often with this, with our society being so focused on individuals, they, the dialogue on purpose is pushed towards these individual changes. So yeah, for us are important, but as long as they speak, all companies is still mining. And still, you know, as long as governments are still in Australia, you know, the government is heavily heavily embedded with a big mining companies. As long as this is the case, then, if we recycle, that's only going to do so much that's going to be both. Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that. Yeah, for sure. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. I want to read out one of the quotes that you have on your Instagram, completely relate to and I love it so much, I want to frame it and put on my wall, a mother's identity and sense of self is tied to the and then in brackets, lack of social recognition she receives for her labor. Now that basically in a nutshell, is how I felt. After I had my child, my identity went down the drain, because all I was expected to do was look after a child and I kept thinking, I'm so capable. I've worked full time I've done all this stuff. But now all society wants me to do is sit on the floor and play with this baby. And it just felt so weird. And I was challenged very much. So yes, yeah, that's, that's, um, yeah, I think so many of us go through this. And you know, on the one hand it is there are two sides to it. On the one hand, you have that. For some, for some women, this is so monotonous. And this is just, you know, women are told that they need to absolutely love being a mother every single moment. And this is a this is a patriarchal idea, because it's based on the idea that women are just naturally made to be nurturers. This is your God given role. And some women simply don't feel that and that's totally okay. And, you know, one person isn't meant to completely bring up a child. On the other hand, I think that capitalism really puts this emphasis on our job, and our identity is totally tied to our job. And I talked about that a little bit in the in the Instagram post. So identity is so tied to our job that when we go on maternity leave, have this complete identity crisis. You know, it's an existential crisis, that just means crisis related to our understanding of the meaning of life existentialism, yeah, meaning of life. So yeah, whole idea is what does my life actually mean? I'm not doing anything, and that's because doing is always within capitalism producing. Yeah, and also, I'm not earning a wage for this. And so therefore, this is meaningless. When actually what you are doing is you're contributing to society by bringing human beings into it. You know, you this is a huge part of it. I mean, this is one of the biggest ways that you are contributing to society, like babies fundamentally cannot look after themselves. So Yeah, so I think that we're kind of women and mothers are really put in this catch 22 situation you can't win either way, right? If you stay home, you want to be a stay at home mom, no, you're not doing anything meaningful, you're not producing. And then you're in your, you know, even some people will say, Are your bad feminists, which is completely not true, because feminism should be about women choosing what they do with their lives. So as they're not harming anyone else. And then on the other hand, you have, if you want to go back to work, you're abandoning your child, your your role as a woman is to look after your child. So yeah, women really can't win in this literally cannot win. I'm just looking for this quote, I had a guest last the last year or this year, I can't remember now. Charlotte Conde who's an an artist from the US, and she had a quote that I love, and I'm finding it because I've got to say it right? I can't, I can't not say it right, because it's awesome. Where is it? Hello, Charlotte, if you're listening, alright, here we go. This is it says, as mothers were asked to raise human beings and also contribute to society, as if those two things were different. It's exactly what's so well, what's because society somehow under capitalism has become the economic world. Yeah, it, it has become just that and not all these other aspects of society. Yeah, and, you know, sometimes the word care economy is used to talk about how this is that, you know, is also a sort of economy where we're producing but I think even we don't even need to use those terms. It's just the fact that nurturing one another is one of the main human acts in the way that we, you know, part of being human and living a good life. Not to mention that we, there's no way around it like either way. Either way, look after our children at home or other people look after children in a childcare center. It is still this care, right? Yeah. Yeah, people need that. So yeah, we is really the fact that they consider different things as a real problem. Hmm. And again, I think that's, yeah, this one off, like I sometimes bash men too much. But this whole it's not individual men. It's the snobbery. It's been going for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's not a new thing. But here's an interesting post. I can't remember who wrote it. Just last night, I was reading that. The whole idea of being a natural mother. Nurture is a concept that was created by men by the patriarchy. Exactly, I'm sure. Because that's yeah, I felt that when I was first giving my baby his very first bath, and did not know what to do. I thought, how, like, I remember saying to the nurse, I was verbally like, how do I push with the facewash? Like all these? You don't know, just your instincts. I'm like yeah, you got this tiny, tiny little, little alien looking thing. That's the funny thing. Yes. Somehow, when actually moms and dads Oh, parents, just learning the same as one another, you know, like, what? Yeah, when, when my daughter was born, my husband and I were both equally terrified of giving her a bath. Because you know this. So like, how do I hold them? What do I do? And it's like, yes, you're all learning together? Yeah. absolutely absurd. This idea. And you're right, it, of course, does come from patriarchy. Because there's this thing called Gender essentialism. I'm sure you kind of know the idea, or at least maybe not the term. So I was gonna say not probably not in those words, but I know, you would know it for sure. Yeah. So gender essentialism is basically just saying that certain qualities are inherently female, and certain qualities are inherently male. So the female ones would be nurturing, soft, emotional, kind of soft, and all these things and then the male ones would be hard reasoning. unemotional because of anger isn't an emotion in this context. And kind of separated from other people. And these ideas, yeah, are really fundamental to the way that we think about people of different genders and then yeah, becoming a mother. You're just so pushed into this. Because I guess in the workforce, you know, you can kind of there are a lot of still a lot of limits on women, but you can kind of go into a field that you're interested in that but with mothering, you're really, really pushed into that. I am a nurturer. I have to be a nurturer. And it's done. You know, like like with any things some people take more than that. And some people don't. And that's totally okay. And also, we're all learning mums and dads we all learn when none of us are just just born to be parents. Yeah, that's so true. And like, even with my two kids, like, I've adjusted the way I've parented them, because they're different people. So I'm learning as I go. Yeah, because not every child is the same everywhere, like every person is different. So it's an interesting concept, isn't it? I love all this creep. I love this stuff like this. Just why? Why do we think like this? When we started, get addicted to it, and sometimes people are, my friends are annoyed at me, because you know, you kind of have a normal conversation. You're like, Oh, I love that. Other things that you've sort of delved into, on your page? Obviously, politics, but diet culture? is a good one. Can you share some of your interesting thoughts about that about? Oh, yeah. And I noticed earlier, when you described yourself, you said, I've got a smaller body. Yeah, I live in a smaller body. Yeah, sorry, are you live in a smaller body? I'm not an expert on this whatsoever. The with this, just like, you know that I would never say that I am the person that everyone should be listening to about racism. I'm not the person that people should be fundamentally listening to about diet culture. But I do think that it's a really important thing to talk about. But look, it's women that are people that are living in larger bodies, that really the ones we should be listening to, because they're the ones that experience, the experience, prejudice, and fat shaming and all these things. So I'm trying, I'm really in the process of learning as well, I think. Because, you know, this idea that to be thin is good. And to be bigger is bad. This is something that's so deeply ingrained, you know, that like, somehow these are moral things. And also, somehow these are things that we can totally control. And, and if you're not, then you just need to try harder with them. So, yeah, so yeah, I like all of us, I grew up, just hearing from everyone around me, people are constantly criticizing themselves about their body, you know, and especially women, not only women, but especially women is such a collective thing we do you know. And then, of course, after you have a baby, it's the thing we do, and we just waste so much time focusing on our bodies, how much were the things we want to change and what we paid about our bodies and things like this. But the reason why I think it's important to talk about it as a diet culture, like as an ideology we have in societies because what we learn from fat people are people that are living in larger bodies. So I purposely use the word fat because, you know, when we grew up, we're taught you shouldn't use the word fat. It's like an insult to someone. And there are some activists like Aubrey Gooden who I don't know whether, you know, the podcast maintenance phase, it's one of my favorite podcasts. Yeah, yeah. You know, she, she kind of says this, this is a descriptive term. I believe that different people kind of have different ideas like about this. But what I've learned is that, yeah, it's just a descriptive term. And as well as that to say things like I'm living in a smaller body, I'm or someone who's living in a larger body with saying that this is just the body we live in. We're not. We kind of haven't chosen this. And we know, it's just based on genetics. It's based on, you know, our stress levels. It's based on what our social context is, you know, how much money we have the availability of food, how much time we have to prepare food or exercise, what sort of weather conditions, we have just so many things we cannot control, we fundamentally cannot control it. And so I think it's so important to talk about how there's so much prejudice against people who are not thin, just fundamentally and this is quite a new thing that is being talked about now. And there's so much pushback against it because we have so much obsession with thinness and, you know, the things that people talk about that they you know, the prejudice that they face, even just simple things like to get medical care you would know, from listening to maintenance phase, you know, the stuff that Aubrey Gordon talks about and how people you know, as kids, they will be put on diets. And everyone says that, well, that's okay. Because they just, you know, we just want them to be healthy. And the psychological effects of that are just terrible. So I think it's so important to talk about. So while Yeah, you know, while I, as a person, of course, have gone through a process of, you know, learning to have more neutrality toward my body, and things like this, and I am really trying to teach my kid to have a positive relationship with food. So for nothing, this is good food. This is bad food. Often Intuitive Eating is a term that's caught that's used around this. I think, really, though, the fundamental thing is that we need to think about these power structures and how fat people are just completely completely, you know, they really suffer from inequality in so many ways, because of this prejudice. And someone pointed out to me correctly that, you know, on social media on Instagram, so many people talking about intuitive eating and talking about diet culture, are people living in smaller bodies, and often white women, you know, so. So we, you know, I, we can only say so much about this, it's not really our authority, I think we need to really have a lot more diverse people talking about this, and, you know, to really listen to them. Yeah, I think that's really true. Similarly, with, like, we're talking about before about how I sort of speak to my children about things, we found weight, like I I'm a fat person, I'm not ashamed to say that because there it's like saying, I'm, I'm tall, and I'm fat. You know, they're descriptive. Exactly. This. Yeah, this is the thing. I think, also, it's like about everyone's own relationship with themselves, like, whatever, I guess whatever you choose to identify with. Yeah, is important. Yeah. But like, I explained to my kids that, you know, I showed my, my youngest son's never seen me, in a thin body, I was, I have a different time in my life. My weights fluctuated. But I showed him a picture the other day of when I was my lightest, and he couldn't believe it was me. And I said, I'm exactly the same person that I am, as I was, then like, I'm actually a happier and more settled person now. It doesn't change, like, you know, whether I'm good at something or bad at something, maybe, you know, Netflix is different. But you know, I'm still, but it's not like a moral a moral thing. It doesn't say that. Because, like, Okay, I live in a smaller body, but I'm not good, athletic, you know? And I'm not my diet isn't the best, you know, that's the other thing that like, no one ever is sort of looking at me eating pancakes or something and being like, oh, you know, gee, you should pick a healthier option or something. I mean, of course, like, maybe my grandma did, because, you know, like, that's that generation. And that was like, you know, just so ingrained for them that they're always kind of policing and worrying, maybe you will get bigger, maybe we'll you know, like as it but you know, no one, you know, for fat people that it's a public thing that can go in, you can go in public without being harassed in this way. And this constant microaggressions. And yeah, so I just don't think it makes sense. Because, yeah, people don't know what anyone's diet is. And also, it's irrelevant. totally irrelevant to other people what someone eats. I mean, I just think tying the moral thing as if it makes you a good or bad person is absolutely absurd. Like, how is it got to do with anyone else? Or whether you're a good person? Because like I said, it also depends on so many factors like, like, ultra if you're, you know, if you're tired parent, if you don't have much money, or so many things, and even if you even if you do have the ability to eat healthier and choose Not, not the word health isn't very good to eat more whole foods or something. If you don't, it's your own choice. You know, like, just like people choose to do different jobs, people choose to have leisure time doing different things. And it's funny, though, like, we talked before about this, neoliberalism is all about the self, but we're so obsessed with everybody else. It's like, yeah, there's you so big, like, has it always been? Yeah. People always. I think, I think it has, yeah, I don't like this something about, you know, like, I don't agree with the idea that, you know, society is worse than ever, in that sense. Because, you know, also even when we talk about neoliberalism, look, there were periods where we had greater social welfare and things like that, but fundamentally looking back In history, it was much worse, you know, because we were like, kings and staffs. We were there was just slaves and slave owners, you know. So that was funneling until there are still slaves in the world. You know, there are a lot. So, yeah, we have to put it in context like that. And when it comes to beat judging each other. Yeah, I think that now we just, it's more public because we have these avenues. But look, when we, I mean, I don't really know what happened before writing was a thing. But you know, you look at these old publications from few 100 years ago, newspapers, that it's all gossip there, it just does seem to be this human thing. to gossip about each other, and to compare and to judge. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, we, we kind of do do that. Yeah. And, but the difference is with this constant, it's more constant now. Because we just can't, I mean, think about the amount of different opinions and messages we're reading a day, or we're listening to a day, it's just so much. So I think that's why it can feel so overwhelming. Now, I'm gonna lead this into something that I talked to all my guests about, is this concept of, of guilt, or particularly mom guilt. Yeah. And the more that we talk about it, the more I believe that the whole culprit of it is this, what society expects us to be as mothers, so that we think we've got to do so we put these on ourselves, and when we don't meet them, then we feel bad about it. So it's an external construct. It's a thing that's coming at us. And I feel like, because of social media, it's just heightened the whole thing, because we can see so much more, you know, before we heard that, such and such down the road was doing such and we go, oh, shouldn't do that. Blah, blah, blah. There's she might not have known that. But now, it's, you know, people can tell each other what they think of them all the time. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You're right. It's, it's just constant. And also, it's, it's really difficult, because I think as well, we seek out connection on social media. And I think, and I think that, you know, for isolated mothers, we do kind of want to see others that are in the position like us that are also mothers at home with their kids, especially when they're little you know, when you're on maternity leave, or when you're in that really difficult phase, then you really want to think like, and you and like you said before, you're thinking what is my life, all I'm doing is Baby Alive. So on the way Yeah, and that is kind of maybe part of the reason why we do also we're so vulnerable. And then, and then we look to these images of other people and social media. And I think that there is just there are parts that are really positive, and I kind of try and stay stick to them. There are parts that are really saying that, you know, we just need to be good enough parents, and you know, we're all doing our best. And then there are parts that you know, they'll have this really nicely curated feed where it just shows them doing this lovely activity with the kids and they're all wearing matching outfits, their hair is washed, and they're like, there's no mess. There's no crumbs on the ground. There's no like, and you know that it's not real. It's not real. It's not real. But on the other hand, like when you're in this vulnerable mental position, you kind of can think how can how can I live that way? And how come I don't? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like, for me personally, I don't know. I think in those early days of being a mom, like in the newborn phase, I never I never thought that you know that that was real. I never thought I want it to be like that. But at the same time I I definitely did. And I still do experience mom guilt just thinking because we have these were socially conditioned, like you said, to have certain ideas about what a mom should do. We have. I think that this is ideal of a mother that it's not even it's not a person. It's like this thought, you know, that we all have in our cultural thinking. And we compare everything according to that. And it's this idea that's been perpetuated by patriarchy so not by men, but by this idea that women are a certain way and that women are meant to do this. And women play a big part in perpetuating it as well. You know, women also perpetuate patriarchy we all we all do. But because this is they are ingrained thinking. And yeah, so I, I would think, you know, I think I would compare a bit more with like other mothers I saw around, you know, like, why does she look so well dressed and I'm wearing trackies and haven't washed my hair and have stressed pimples or whatever, you know, like, or why do I feel? Yeah, or I don't know, when my daughter started becoming an older baby. You know, my daughter is on super energetic side is she's amazing. She, I mean, she's just full of life and ready to go all the time. And it's completely amazing. Like, people always comment on it, but it's tiring. Yeah. Like, I mean, even. And so once she started, I don't know, I was so obsessed in love with her and still am. But as a baby, I sort of said to my husband, like, do you think? What would you think if I took longer maternity leave? So I am in a really lucky position that we've sort of could choose how long I would stay home with it. I don't get paid for any of that. And we're not like, in a insanely good financial position. Like we sort of said, Then during this time, we won't save. But of course, having said that, compared to most women in the world, that's a hugely privileged position. Like for me, for us to even say that. So yeah, and he was like, Yeah, of course. But you can, however long you want, you know, maybe till two or whatever. And then she got close to one. And I was like, starting to think, Oh, my God, I cannot handle these days of constant energy, like, because it would just be like, if we were at home, she'd be running around, and she would be kind of annoyed. And it makes sense, because she's, like, pent up, she needs to get this energy out. There's not enough to do in it. We live in an apartment. That's not enough. You know, in Australia, houses are super common. And a lot of the world people live in apartments, and it's fine. But um, yeah, and we would, I would take it apart twice a day, and it wasn't enough. And I felt really guilty because I was, like, I love my daughter. I should be loving this, when actually it doesn't make sense. But just because I love her doesn't mean I need to love every second of it. Yeah, yeah, we ended up sending out a daycare. And we're all she asked if she is thriving, you know, I, and I'm a much better parent for that. Sometimes I do still feel guilty. You know, my husband has to remind me. And it's interesting that he reminds me, he's, he's a very good feminist. You know, he, he understands why he wouldn't say that, because I think he always he doesn't like to say, you know, like, as a man, he doesn't want to say that. But I think he is aware of all these things and sort of tries to think critically about it. But anyway, he says to me why you feel guilty? You know, she loves it. She wants to be there. But then I don't know just decide. I guess it is just this cultural ideas of like, oh, but she should be with me, even though it doesn't make sense. If she was like, the other day she was home sick with me. And we're both are not in. Too much. You know, she wants to be there playing with other friends and doing the million activities they do at daycare. Yeah, I can't provide her with like, 10 activities a day. Yeah. Yeah, look, what you're saying is so, so true, and so relatable. It's that notion that, like you said, we love our children, but we don't have to love every second of this mothering roles that were you know, an expectation. We love every moment. We don't love every moment of anything, but yet, but then he was coming back. We're hauled over the coals if we say, if we publicly you know, say, Oh, gee, this was really hard today. Well, you want to become a parent. Yeah. Many people whinge about their job. Like they love their job. But jeez, I had a hard day. Oh, well, you shouldn't winter is reserved for us. Of a year, this is our natural role. That's what we're supposed to be doing it. Yeah, it's absolutely ridiculous. And I think that, yeah, like, like, we really need this outlet to just say this is hard, sometimes just like everything, and also fundamentally that, like, society doesn't really support mothers. And so because we don't have that village, because we don't have the it makes it that much harder. That's for sure. I don't know how many of us do it, to be honest, when you think about everything we've got going against us. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I don't know. I feel like I'm, you know, in such a privileged position, and I'm really tired all the time. And like, you know, people do that so much harder, you know, and I had to know, it's, I'm just in awe, really, but they shouldn't have to, they shouldn't have to, you know, yeah, that's so true. It's frustrating, isn't it? Now I want to ask you, there's a great reel that you made a few weeks ago. It's great. I'm really that bad. This is a big thing for me, because I actually want to, I want to talk about this again, because this is like this obsession, absolute obsession with AD generation. I feel like all parents at the moment, and yeah, look, if you look at it, if you look at it in a historical context, like I say, I'll just kind of repeat what I said in the real because I mean, it's true that every generation has this crisis about some new technology that's going to destroy young people in the time of the ancient Greek philosophers like Plato, so this is like, about 2000 years ago, they thought that writing was going to destroy everyone, because the oral tradition was how we, how they communicated. And you know, through memorizing, that was a huge thing. Because of course, if you didn't memorize, then how were you going to ever remember anything? And how would ideas ever be passed on so that I will now we write it down, now the kids aren't going to remember anything, how, you know, this is going to be a catastrophe. And then, of course, then the printing press, we have books proliferated, that was a crisis. And then of course, the ones we know, which are like, radio, radio was a disaster. Now, of course, it's funny, because people think the radio is like a good alternative to screen time. Not watching. People just gonna be listening all the time. And then they're sitting there listening, and they're not moving around. And then TV, of course, which still goes on, and then the internet, you know, so I just think that yes, there are these recommendations that we have. But when we obsess over them, we're just really not thinking in context. Because we're, we're not thinking about the fact that, like, the alternative, we think that the alternative to screentime is like this, this 100% quality time with a parent or with some other caregiver, where they're just flourishing, and they're, you know, they're just absolutely taking everything in and learning. And, you know, for like, in the past, the alternative was probably working for a lot of children in the world. Now. The alternative is working, bored, either working in paid labor or working at home helping with the helping maintain the home. Or if it's not that, you know, it won't necessarily be this quality one on one time, all the time. And even if we talk about, even if we don't talk about that, we just talked about our own context. Then it, I just don't think it's the worst thing in the whole world. They don't. Kids don't need 100% quality time, all the time. It's impossible. And you're also going to have parents who are kind of regulated and feeling okay, and, and I really think it's part of this mom guilt, it feeds into this mom guilt thing again, because realistically, how are you going to cook dinner? With, you know, a few kids around you, especially if they're young? Or how are you gonna, you know, get all chores done? Or how are you audits? Maybe you just need to relax. It doesn't even need me that, you know, maybe you just need a minute. Yeah. You know, without them doing this. And I think that often the people that do do no screen time ever, at least the ones that I've heard are in a really privileged position, you know. And so then for people who have juggling so many things just feel so bad that their kids watching TV. I just think it just, I don't know, it's just guilt for nothing. And also, I just think that when we look back historically, like, maybe we won't be like, Oh, my God, look, they were staring at screens all the time. Maybe because that's just part of our world. Yeah, like springs are part of our world. Yeah. And the truth is, I think if you don't give your child a little bit of access to that technology, they're gonna get left behind at school. That's the other thing. Yeah. Because Because actually, they need to learn these skills. And that's kind of the approach we're taking that we're going to try and as soon as we can I don't know what age they started at, like four or five or I haven't looked into it yet, but it tries to do like kids coding for. Yeah, yeah. because, I mean, that's kind of gonna be really important. And yeah, that's the future. That's the world now, and I don't know anything about coding. And so I'm kind of like, in the dark already, you know. And so I just don't think that, yeah, that track, we're trying to protect our kids from things. I think rather, we just need to think how we can nurture them to safely and, and in a nice way, use those things. This is a really long bow to draw. But it's like, in the times when you'd say to teenagers don't have sex, it's like, well, they're gonna have sex, so teach them how to use a condom. Right? So Right, exactly, you just say just don't use it. And then they're gonna go on the internet themselves. Or watch shows? Well, anyway, they watch shows on the internet, go on social media, whatever themselves, and they're gonna have no understanding if you don't teach them, like how to tell if something is factually based How to tell if something is safe, you know, or something that is comfortable for them, you know? Or how to ask you if it's something uncomfortable on the internet happens to them to tell you and yeah, exactly like this creepy purple, they're selling to me or something. Instead, they'll just hide it. And then they're getting more on. Yeah, yeah. So I'd say waiting until they're teenagers to talk about their safety on the internet, and to let them have access. I think it doesn't make sense. That's not to say that I'm gonna let my kid sit there and do anything on the internet. Yeah, of course not. But but you got to, you've got to give them I think, begin was small levels of freedom and make it bigger and bigger in ways that they can cope with. Yeah, and it's no different to like, if you sent your kid out a little, a little toddler out into a big kid's playground, or, you know, just gonna go get run over and go sit and drink your coffee and not watch you know, it's, it's a part of life and trying to do it in a safe way. So your child's protected and, and if that's important, that communication to like, to bid for them to come to you and say, Hey, this happened, what do I do? Or how do I navigate this? Or, you know, it's so important that they keep talking to you? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you, of course, would have so much more experience with this. For me, this is all theoretical, and just thinking about it. Because I know it's so hard for parents to work, navigate this whole online thing. But like you said, we just got to, we got to acknowledge this is the world this is the world they live in. They don't, you know, they don't remember a world before the internet. You know, we, you and I remember when it shows our age, but we remember, you know, I had the time before the internet. And so I really think of it as something that happened. They don't think like that. They're just like, yeah, that's the world like when I my toddler she has she's on a tablet. And I don't think that it's some huge disaster that she knows how to, like change the video or something. You know, she can press it as like, yeah, like, because that's just like she's learning all these other skills in the world. Yeah, just letting her do that. Yeah, of course. It's so much easier for her. Yeah. And yeah, it's a story I often reflect on my seven year old we were talking once about how we used to have our phones on the wall so you remember to pick up the phone it only went a certain distance like the cord was stuck to the curly cord Yeah, and he said how did you play your games while it was stuck on the wall? I'm like what? Because had it because he's imagining I've got my phone stuck on the game's amazing I love it. It's not normal world that didn't have this stuff in it and it got it blows my mind like how different because especially because we live in a time when technology progressed so rapidly and now it's kind of seems like it's a little bit plateauing again, like we haven't you know they're trying to do like VR and things like that now but but you know, within the last kind of 20 years it's just been massive with the smartphones and with how fast the internet is and things like this. But yeah, it's so funny. This is really good channel on YouTube, which is something like teenagers try out old technology or something. Yeah, yeah, I know what you're a funny how like they're trying to use a video player and they're trying to work out like how you would put it in. And the funniest thing is when you know that cord comes out, you know the tape or whatever. The real inside it comes out and every one of our generation discuss art because then you have to fix it with a pen. I love that. There's a post it's like what's the relationship and they show? Only certain faithful over certain days you'll know what you find mental part of our life and now like, yeah, they just have no idea what it is. And yeah, it's okay to because, you know, things change and we don't need to, like be romantic about it, but I think you know, because but yeah, it is funny. It is quite incredible, but I think that they're gonna be, you know, do amazing things with this technology is such capability. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And again, I think if your kids not aware of it or understands or knows what even what it is like that is the future they will they will get left behind that's not present. It's literally sorry. Yes, it is. It's the present. It's happening right now. And if you can't engage in that way, you are just not going to be involved in the conversation, which is Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Bla bla what what platforms are you on? I know you're on Instagram. Are you on? Yeah. Yes, I'm on Instagram. I've just started a YouTube as well, because I wanted to do longer videos. Because obviously, all of these concepts. I think it's really fun. And I really like it that I can communicate things to people in a really short way on Instagram, but I'm, yeah, I'm on YouTube. So I'm, I'm, yeah, so you can find me there. And I'm on Twitter as well, if you use Twitter, and I'm just, I'm just developing my website, I hope that it will be out soon. And my kind of hope with this whole project is and this is why I started this whole thing is I wanted to move toward or incorporate doing courses for parents and really for people in general, but focusing on parents like feminism for parents and different critical thinking for parents things like that, and provide different resources. So yeah, I'm really working a lot on that at the moment. Yeah, excellent. I love that. I'll put all the links in the shownotes for people if they want to find you. I've just found that I mean, I'm still learning. I'm still learning. It's good fun. My. Yeah, it's good, fun. Look, thank you so much for sharing your ideas with the world and for communicating in a very non condescending manner. It's really lovely. Honestly, I think if there's one thing like, we're all learning, and I just, I don't know, we're all learning and yeah, and the more we can all talk about things, the better, I think but it's been so nice. Thank you so much. Yeah, no, no worries at all. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for mums of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Holly Norman Australian professional musician + wellbeing practitioner S3 Ep81 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week I am pleased to welcome Holly Norman to the podcast. Holly is a musician and wellness pracitioner from Perth WA and a mum of 1. When Holly was growing up, her dad used to listen to big band jazz records at home, and early on she was listening regularly to classic swing and big band – Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong and so on. At the age of 11, a self confessed, late starter Holly took up the drums. She went through high school and university as a dyed-in-the-wool classical percussionist and back then you couldn’t have paid her to get behind a drum set. Once she started playing in bands in her mid-twenties, Holly realised that there was a whole world of music that could become accessible to her, if she moved over to drums. As a musician Holly has worked with the likes of The Cat Empire. Ash Grunwald, the Australian String Quartet, and the West Australian and Canberra Symphony Orchestras. She released her own EP of original songs in 2013 called Hollypop , recently released a single called It's Only Weather in late 2022, and has a new song out now, called Isolation , written about the covid-19 lockdown periods experienced over the past couple of years. Holly spent 10 years as an event producer and arts manager, working on some amazing projects like the Melbourne International Jazz festival, Perth PRIDE Parade, and Perth International Jazz Festival. Holly is also passionate about health and wellness practicing yoga for over 15 years and she's also a yoga teacher. Musicians need so many different types of mobility, and functional/postural support to play their instrument, so Holly developed the Yoga for Drummers session. She is really passionate about keeping musicians safe and ensuring longevity in the industry. This episode contains discussion around miscarriage and loss. Connect with Holly - instagram / website / facebook Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Holly's music is used throughout today's episode, with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoy honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Welcome to another episode of the podcast is a pleasure to welcome you from wherever you are in the world. Whether this is your first episode, or your at first, thank you so much for being along for the ride. I've just come back from a week away with the family in a city called Ballarat, which is about three hours away from where I live here, Matt, Gambia. It's over in Victoria and it was lovely to be out of my own space somewhere completely different enjoying the sunshine, swimming, being a tourist and sightseeing and spending a lot of time with the family. Although the car trips with the two boys in the back, were always a bit of fun and the huge pile of washing that we've accumulated. Now that we're home is also great. I'm sure many of you can relate. But nevertheless, today I'm very excited to welcome Holly Norman to the podcast. Holly is a percussionist a singer, a songwriter and musician from Perth in Western Australia, and she's a mom of one. When Holly was growing up, her dad used to listen to Big Band jazz records at home. And early on, Holly was listening regularly to classic swing and big bands such as Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, and Louis Armstrong and so on. At the age of 11. A self confessed late starter, Holly took up the drums. She went through high school and university as a dyed in the wool classical percussionist, and back then you couldn't have paid her to get behind a drum set. Once she started playing in bands in her mid 20s. Holly realized that there was a whole world of music that could become accessible to her if she moved over to the drums. So that's what she did. As a musician, Holly has worked with the likes of the cat empire, Ash, Grunwald, the Australian String Quartet, and the West Australian and Canberra symphony orchestras. Holly's also released in a piece of her own work, entitled Holly pop, which is available through Bandcamp. And you can find that through the link in the show notes. Holly spent 10 years as an event producer and arts manager working on some amazing projects like the Melbourne International Jazz Festival, the Perth Pride Parade and the Perth International Jazz Festival. Holly is also passionate about health and wellness, practicing yoga for over 15 years and she's now a yoga teacher. Musicians need so many different types of mobility, and functional and postural support to play the instrument. So Holly developed the yoga for drummers sessions, which can be found via the link in the show notes. This episode contains discussions around miscarriage and loss. The music you'll hear on today's episode is from Holly herself. There's a little bit of holly solo on her piano self accompanied and with her behind the drum set for her jazz quartet. Thanks again for tuning in. It's a pleasure to be with you and I hope you enjoy my chat with Holly. name is Deanna Manzi. Season seems to be thanks so much for coming on today, Holly. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks you for having me. Yeah, it's a real pleasure. So we were just chatting before we hit record that you're in Perth and the massive time difference between Perth and the rest of Australia. So it's 12 o'clock here. What time? Is it over there? It's 9:30am. Yes, it's a three hour time difference in summer. Yeah, that's yes. Yeah, it is. Yeah. We just got back from Canberra a couple of days ago. So my husband's family lives there. So we spent Christmas there. And yeah, luckily, it actually didn't hit us too hard with the sort of body clock adjustment for my daughter who's two and a half. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was expecting it to be more of a pain. But as soon as she got back in bed, she just has slept like a dream. So that's really nice, actually. Yeah, yeah, that's a consideration because I don't like you were saying you don't have daylight savings there. But whenever the clocks change here, like there's this whole big Yeah. How do we manage daylight savings with the calculator? Yeah. I mean, we we had our daughter in Melbourne. So the first 18 months of her life, we were there. So yeah, we did have to do a little bit of that when she was still a baby and napping. And I remember trying to adjust to like, how do you get them to think it's an hour later or an hour earlier? Like starting the naps? Like 15 minute increments like Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's so funny. And the other kids just they just click into it. Like, you know, like, I don't know, just bizarre like, because I've got two kids and they're just completely different. So yeah, you just never know what's gonna happen to Yeah, totally Divi? You're a musician, you do some other things, too. But is musician, your first sort of passion, your first love? Yeah, it definitely is my first love. It's interesting, the whole kind of, I guess the topic of like, how you identify yourself, because I haven't made I haven't tried to make my living from playing music for a really long time. And that was sort of a deliberate choice. I had a day job. For the last, I want to say 10 years as a event producer and arts manager. So I sort of did that as like a nine to five. But yeah, the music part has always been there. Since I was in high school, really, it's, I would say it's like the great love of my life, for sure still is even more so now. Like coming out of the pandemic and and rediscovering music and what it means to me. Yes, definitely the main thing. Yeah. Do you remember how you first got into music? Yeah, it's funny. I was actually talking to someone about this yesterday, we're talking about Disney movies, because my daughter has just entered like the frozen phase that phase. I reckon Disney is like the reason that I'm I took out music. I loved the way that it could merge narrative with musical form. That and yeah, when I went to high school, I went to a school that was some specialists music. So we did a lot, a lot of music there. And when I arrived, I was sort of felt like I was a little bit behind the other kids because there were lots of lots of families and lots of children that came from these big like classical music sort of dynasty families and had been listening to records and like knew all this repertoire. And I didn't really have that kind of an upbringing. Like I there was lots of music played in our family home for sure. Like I was brought up on, you know, all of the sort of classics, but nothing classical music. So when I went into that style of studying and that sort of foundation of learning music. I used to take myself into the State Library actually on a Saturday morning is such a nerd and like listen to record of like, you know, Beethoven and yeah symphonies to try to catch up on all of the learning that I felt like I'd missed. I was Yeah, I was just really obsessed by that the sort of properties of music telling a story and Star Wars and big scores. Stuff that I just loved it like the kind of majesty of it all. Yeah, when you say about Star Wars, I've got I keep like things that inspire me. Because I just love here you can hear a Tiny Toon and relate that to a character and relate that to a whole storyline. And then you just taken into this whole world, like, I just find that so amazing. I just love that. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. My first instrument was actually the flute, and I was the world's worst flute player. So when I was a child, you could have opened a can with my face like I had such a pronounced Overbite that I had I had a full Year flute lessons with a very, very patient, lovely woman, who at the end of the year took my mother aside and politely said, Holly has musical aptitude. But I think it's best if she were to play an instrument that doesn't require her mouth, as you know, as an ombre. Sure. Yeah, I couldn't make a sound after a full year of lessons. And that flute teacher specifically said, for some reason, take her to have have lessons with this teacher who teaches play percussion. So yeah, that was the instrument because you know, you just hit it. So you don't need big lungs. You don't need an Ambusher you don't need to use your mouth. She was obviously thinking that I was rubbish at all of those things. Right, yeah. Yeah, like, I guess that's like, the instruments sort of found me by like being disqualified from other instruments that I yeah, I just, I really fell in love with it. It's it's quite physical, I suppose percussion, which I enjoyed this, like, you know, striking the instrument. And the variety of it really appealed to me. So I'm, I'm a sort of being multi passionate is a pretty core facet of my personality. So with percussion, you know, we never really had to choose one instrument like you can have you play snare drum, xylophone, vibraphone, bass drum crash cymbals timpani? Like you get to play everything at the back of the orchestra. And that that really appealed to me, I think, being able to sort of jump from one thing to the other. Yeah, and keep keep things interesting to like, totally not just sitting on the same instrument they have today. Yeah. And I think also another another big thing that I got from that those early years sitting at the back of the orchestra is that, you know, percussionist, they don't play for most of the time. You know, it's like an icing on the cake philosophy, you really are there for like the one or 2% of you know, the moments where the music becomes really exciting, or, you know, that sort of skill of just listening, I think is something that's really carried through to my adult years into the musician that I became because yeah, it's just a lot of listening to other people play. Yeah. And yeah, trying to fulfill that that role. Yeah. Yeah, cuz that's it, isn't it? It's like when when something interesting is happening in the music, whether like you said, it's really big or something really small, like, whether it's like the xylophone or one of those twinkly, chime things that we like, it's really something interesting is happening. I've actually always wanted like, because I'm a musician myself. But I I've always wondered like when I've seen orchestras play, like the person at the back on the, on the percussion, like they're waiting for their turn. Yes, like, a long time. 4550 minutes? Do you sort of, do you have to read the music the whole time to know where you are? Like, do you ever get scared, you're gonna get lost, like key comes up? And you're like, Oh, is it my turn? Like, do you ever get that? Or is it? I mean, I suppose it would, for someone who's just stepped into it, you'd be like panicking. But I guess because you've rehearsed it that many times. But have you ever had that moment? Where you go? Oh, I'm coming up now. But I'm not exactly sure where it is. Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, look, it's I guess, being generally when you have a long period of rest. You know, you get you get to know what what's happening in that gap. So yeah, you usually no and like, that's why when I said I used to go to the library and listen to records, I just used to kind of like rote learn an entire piece of music and just listen to it a lot. Again, I was such a nerd. I had like, I stayed at home when I had braces for about two and a half years and I had no social confidence as a team. So I used to put on I used to play Playstation, but I turned down the game volume and put on like Gershwin and just memorize memorize the whole thing. But yeah, generally, but by the time that I got to playing that sort of stuff, I usually knew where I was. But having said that, I fallen asleep on the stage of the Perth concert hall. And very, very nearly missed an entry. Because I'm have a weird like, borderline it's not narcolepsy. It's not narcolepsy, but when I'm seated I can lose consciousness pretty easily if I'm not doing something so I often like will sleep in a meeting in class in school our sleep chronically is it's horrible. I slept in jury duty. Oh, so yeah, onstage just with a really really long time of rest. It doesn't I was sitting there like in my full concert blacks people in the class who was behind me peering over my shoulder and yeah, basically passed out and very, very nearly missed an entry. Oh, gosh, yeah. Oh my god. That's a nightmare. Yeah, it's not a great feeling. Oh my goodness. So you can play a few different instruments. What else can you play? Ah, so play a little bit of ukulele definitely not wizard at it. And I play a bit of piano. So I'm just self taught on piano and keys as well. I write most of my own songs on the keyboard, that's sort of the median that I prefer. Yeah, I would have loved to have probably been more competent on piano. But it just wasn't I sort of had quite a late start with music. Like I only started playing percussion when I was about 11. So it wasn't something that I ever really did as a kid, a younger child. But yeah, I would I play mostly drumset now, like, you know, after all that talk about like, playing in orchestras and playing percussion, I probably defined myself more now as as a drummer. That was a transition that happened in my 20s. And I sort of started to, yeah, just relate more to the kind of musical styles and, and settings that I could play in just on drum set, which is mostly jazz. So yeah, I would say mostly drummer percussionist, I sing as well, again, I would never, I would never say I'm the singer. I think I sing my own songs. I like seeing a bit of backing vocals. But I've definitely I can't belt would never get up and do a covers gig. It's just not how I sort of identify. So when you say you write, like you're writing in the jazz style, is that the sort of songs you write? Oh, gosh, not necessarily. I'm a bit of a folky at heart. Really? Yeah. So I would say singer songwriter, folk pop is sort of the main style that I write in. But then, since I've been playing more drums, i Something I've always sort of struggled with creatively is like finding the right performance context of what what instrument am I actually going to play. Because I drums is my first instrument, but you can't really accompany yourself as a soloist, if you're playing drums. So the band that I play with now over here, I play drums, and I sing from behind the drum set, it's my compositions, but then they'd been rearranged and like more of a jazz style, and I've got a bass player, a keyboard player and a saxophone player. So yeah, really, it just depends on the context, I suppose. Like, I did a house concert in December. And that was lovely, because I was just playing solo, piano bit of ukulele. And that was like, very intimate. So yeah, that's not something that I do very often. And I felt pretty bad. Because the morning after that house concert, I woke up with COVID and then had given COVID to six people at a house concerts. I felt horrific about it. But yeah, that's I guess it just depends on the context. Really? Yeah. Yeah. A little bit of everything. Yeah. Cool. And you also you talked a bit before about your arts and event project management that you've sort of in the day job? Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that. And what you do with that? Yeah, so I've actually I've sort of recently, I'm in the middle of a bit of a career transition at the moment. So I've done like arts management as my sort of day job yet for, like I said, about 10 years, I got into it, because I think a lot of musicians once you know, I went to uni for music, so I went to work. And like a lot of sort of tertiary educated musicians, if you want to make a living from music, he often ended up doing a lot of teaching. So I came out of uni, and I started doing quite a lot of instrumental teaching. And I just felt like it wasn't really the right fit for me. And I felt quite strongly that if you're going to be in that position of, you know, influencing a child's relationship with music, that you should really care about being there. And it wasn't that I didn't like teaching, I actually really enjoyed it. And I still, I'd still be open to some teaching. But I feel like the framework of a school and the way that instrumental music was taught in schools because it just didn't really resonate with how I wanted to teach and how I felt like kids should be connecting with music. So I was looking for something else to do, I suppose that could make money and be sort of crossed. And yeah, I always liked being really organized. And I liked making things happen. And I yeah, just sort of fell into it. Like I started working with you, the youth orchestra here. And when I'm working with, started working with arts organizations, and then sort of went into festivals and just climbed up from sort of smaller roles to working as a producer and a programmer. A lot of that was when I was in Melbourne, I really focused on that sort of festival work and like working on the national festival circuit. It's yeah, it's a chapter of my life that I would probably consider is coming to a slate and because I'm studying counseling now, so I'm halfway through a Master's in Counseling. And yeah, I guess like just you know, during the pandemic and watching the way that the Australian arts community was placed it festival work is it can really yet chew you up and spit you out. It's long hours. Not necessarily super family friendly. So I was sort of looking for a way to transition out of that work, but Yeah, making that decision, which was only about six months ago, it was a really, really tough choice. Like, it's hard to step away from something that you really do love, and I still love it. Like, you know, it's incredible work, you're working with people that just care so much, and making things happen. It really getting blood out of a stone, like working with almost next to no budget, which is difficult at times. And I think that was also part of the quandary for me, ethically, as someone, you know, in the music community, as well, as a performer, I thought, I'm finding myself in a situation where I'm often having to ask people for to do things for less than I feel they're worth. And that made me feel like, as someone that, you know, sort of has a presence where I often talk about well being and in the arts industry. I don't I just didn't want to feel like I was feeding into that problem, I suppose. People working for less than they're worth, because I do feel like that's part of the issue. Yeah, yeah. So I thought I was pulled back on that, for the time being focus on being a musician again, and focus on studying and working with people in in health plans to work on. Snap crack, with a smoker, Dini accident, good news, to make the gazal disappear. But there's some things you should consider. Rebel. I'm glad you raised that issue about the pandemic and how the arts were perceived and how they were treated. And if any regular listeners will know, they'll hit they've heard this before. I just get so cross and so angry about how the sport kept going, like, yeah, exactly. Players were moving the country, all these bubbles and whatever. Like all everything else that, you know, it was like, that's the only thing of value because that brings in the most money, you know, yeah. And I just, I just kept saying to people, but everyone's sitting at home watching Netflix, you know, who do you think made it made all the stuff, you know, the arts created all of it. And everyone, it was just really made me so mad. And it still makes me mad. And yeah, and then thing to even before that happened, like I've been a performer, just in my, my town here for, you know, I don't know, I'm 44. Now, it's been a long time. And the attitude towards performers is like, they expect you to do stuff for nothing. And this whole thing of Oh, it's great exposure. And it's like, the amount of times I've heard that bullshit. And I've gotten better as, as I've gotten older, just to say no, sorry, if you're not going to pay me this such whatever this amount is, I'm sorry, I can't do it. You know, and it's, it makes me so cross and then so they'll just, they won't change anything, because they'll just go get the next young kid who's just a geek and just take advantage of them. Yeah, that whole thing just makes me really mad. It's so hard. And I mean, I think, for me, my boundaries have always been like, fairly strong, because I had worked on the other side of the fence, and I understood how much budget organizations usually did have to allocate, which is not heaps, but you know, if you are worrying about, you know, quoting 200 bucks versus 500, like, just quote 500, because they can usually afford to pay it like, I guess I had a level of insight from working on the other side of like managing projects for organizations, but I think being a mum becoming a parent is the ultimate like line in the sand of really having to learn, you know, it's not only that the financial value of an opportunity, but like the energy value of an opportunity and like, What's it costing your family and your household for you to be out of the house for six hours. And for them to not be food in the fridge or to not get any of the other stuff done that you need to get done. But yeah, having said that, I'd certainly don't get it right all the time. And it's, I mean, I've only been really, I've only had to be a parent and be in the regular world for less than 12 months because Matilda was born in April of 2020. So you know, most of her life was in the Melbourne lockdowns, which were some of the toughest and we didn't have a regular life at all until we came to WA and then very abruptly had this like pre pandemic existence, which was like difficult to stomach. Yeah, time. Such a huge culture shock from the way that we have been living so yeah, just even like balancing a social life with work and study and gigs. And having a kid that's only I would say, I've only been I've only had a year of experience even though she's two and a half. Yeah, so what took you to Western Australia? Yeah, so I was born here, and I live most of my life here. I love it over here. I've always been a big advocate and like very proud for the arts community. There's some great people over here, even though it is very isolated from the rest of the world and the rest of the country. And then I'd moved. What year was it? 20 End of 2015. I think I met my now husband. And he had been living in the US studying over there, he'd moved back to Australia. And He's based in Sydney, He then moved to Melbourne, we basically met, we went on one day, and we started, we were like, Let's have a long distance relationship. Then I moved up to Darwin. So I left and went up to Darwin for a festival contract. And then after that, I moved to Melbourne and we were there for about six years together. But yeah, it was, it wasn't the plan to move to Perth. When we did I think that was one of those, you know, sort of sliding doors scenarios that so many families experienced during the pandemic, it was, I think, the hard border with WA, I got to a point where it was causing me I would say, real trauma to not be able to come in. We tried five times to get in I had pretty severe postnatal depression after my daughter was born. It was yeah, it was just a horrible feeling, really, to have everyone over here. And I feel a really strong connection to the to the land over here and like to country, and it was just just knowing that it was something that was prohibited and, and a lot of the attitudes that I felt were being displayed towards us as being like, dirty Victorians and like don't come in and like there was this total xenophobia that was Yeah, revolting. Yeah, I've seen I've seen, I would say, I've seen a side of who that I can say. And, yeah, it's been like a bit of a rocky road to rebuilding that relationship with somewhere that I always loved and said was my home before that? Yeah, I think we basically just got to a point where we didn't have any family in Melbourne. So my husband, like I said, was from Canberra, my family's here in Perth. You know, Melbourne at the time, during COVID, it wasn't what it had been. And we were sort of looking at each other saying, you know, how long will it take for it to rebuild to what it was in terms of the the art space? And I think we just wanted some way that we could live with more family support. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was just so wild. It was we made that decision so quickly. Really, when I look back on it, it's, I often reflect that it's kind of remarkable that we made a good decision in in the place that we were mentally like we were, we were in survival mode, big time. Yeah, when we got here, it was just like having a lot of panic attacks. And really, it all just had to come out at some point. Like, it was tough over there that start part. Yeah. But yes, I think it has been the right choice for sure. And my husband as well was in the military band, he's he's a saxophone player. So he was playing in the Air Force Band. When we lived in Melbourne, which sort of that was like the equivalent, I suppose, is like doing a full time nine to five. So it was like, relatively secure, but he didn't have heaps of freedom outside of that job to pursue other creative stuff. So I think now that we're here, we're sort of, we've regained a balance of being both a portion freelance, you know, and a portion teaching or doing other work and for me study, so it feels like a better balance for us to both have that flexibility. And that's something that we're only really able to do because we've got the family support with a young child. Yeah, no, I did. Yeah. It's massive, isn't it? How much difference it makes when you've got that, that support? When you were saying before about this dirty Victorian mentality, where I leave, my town is Matt, Gambia. We're about 20 minutes from the border. To Tory and the amount of abuse that Victorians cops like people would go home like I worked with a there was a because you had to have all these permits to cross the border. For anyone that doesn't know it was pretty full on. So people that there was a lady that I worked with who was Victorian and she said she would cop abuse people would see her number plate in the car pocket coals and we're just abused get out of here and falling over your fires like it was just disgusting. And they're people who are part of our community basically, you know, they work here horrible been their money here, but then they happen to live in a little tiny little, like, basically a rural little thing just over the border. And yeah, it was really horrible. It was horrible. Because, yeah, like you said, this whole new side of people the way people ostracizing people. Totally, it's hard. Yeah, it's hard to think back on it like a lot of I feel like I sort of just blank a lot of it out. Yeah. But yeah, it was I mean, who obviously had the, you know, proudly the world's hardest border. He built the one didn't you know, I can You kind of laugh about it now, but like this, like my heart's like Slack, silently clenching. Still, as we talk about it like, it's still it's totally still hard to think about. Yeah. But you know, having said that, when we got here, I did understand, I suppose, from the side of people that were here, why they were pleased, in a way to have that protection because they were, you know, artists were able to live relatively unencumbered. Like they didn't have to shut down in the same way that you know, certainly that that Melbourne did so. Yeah, I do get it. But yeah, it's just, it's just a whole chapter of life that I'm so glad is over. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Finding my guys when I thought about it, so you're also into the wellness side of things you do yoga? And I guess that's where you counseling sort of coming in to thing? Yeah, yeah. You've been practicing yoga for a long time. Yeah, I have. I want to say I sort of got into it. Like a lot of, you know, yoga, people got into it, just for exercise. That was when I was in my early 20s. And I remember going to classes and that the teacher would spend ages and the breathing and I'd mentally have this dialogue of like, Can you hurry up and get to the fast paced stuff, like get to the poses, I'm here to you know, get a workout on and it's so funny now, because as a teacher, now, I'm a yoga teacher. And, you know, after what 15 years of practicing is, the breathing is my favorite part. And I would have happily spend two hours in one shape like I don't, I'm not in a hurry, the way that I my home practice has completely changed. You know, I love a slow Hathor as opposed to like a fast vinyasa with a million Chaturanga is, but yeah, it was sort of something that I got into it. And I've never done any real movement training, I'd never did dance or anything like that. But I, when I was at uni, I had a bit of like, RSI, and performance injuries, you know, stemming from how many hours of practice I was doing when I was first studying. So I started going to Pilates. And that was helpful to understand, I suppose my physicality and like how my muscles worked. And, you know, being a relatively petite female and playing an instrument that's traditionally made for, you know, German men like classical percussion. It was yeah, it was just helpful to understand how to support my body and what what sort of strength I needed to build in sort of muscles and that sort of thing. Yeah, so I sort of just started and then kept going, and I did something called Yoga for drummers a few years ago, which had sort of like to start getting that going again. So I had a YouTube class and I did a few workshops as well, you know, drummers pit like all musicians, I would say, not hugely on top of looking after their health in on any level. But you know, it's just, it's easy to injure yourself. And I've met so many musicians in their sort of later years, like, you know, 50s, who say, ah, you know, I wrecked my hearing, and I'd never write what earplugs and I've got chronic back pain. And it's like, all of that stuff can actually be really easily prevented. And I think we're starting to get a handle now. You know, sort of globally and in terms of the Australian arts community, I think there is more of a narrative of like prevention is better than cure, you know, trying to give resources to younger people coming into the industry in terms of how do you look after yourself when you're out on the road? How do you eat well, when you're touring? How do you combat this industry that you know, by and large is so unregulated and requires you to work incredibly long hours and usually unwind with, you know, alcohol or drugs? Healthy Choices are the first ones that you reach for on the shelf, I suppose. But for me, I was never somebody that I've always liked to have a good night's sleep. I'm a total Nana, like, even before I love to happy becoming a monk because I was like, finally, I feel like I'm validated in this choice. Like, people aren't gonna hang shit on me for like wanting to go to bed early because I've got to get up early for the child but but I was doing that before I was a mum. Yeah, so yeah, I guess like, you know, just wanting to feel good and and also, you know, with my own mental health, you know, yoga and well being has been a massive tool and like essential, I think for for managing my own mental well being. So yeah, it's just been really helpful. And I think the more people that I've talked to about it now, I think there's more and more museums and artists that are like happy to have those conversations and say like, I really struggle with this or I use this and You know, barefoot running like people are into all sorts of things. Like, it doesn't matter what it is, unless you've got something that works for you. And it's just, it's just trial and error. Yeah, yeah, that whole sort of culture of, you know, sex, drugs and rock and roll soda. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like drinking, you know, their boots and going. On they got Hell yeah. A little bit funny. It's good. I've practiced yoga for a long time, as well. And I find nowadays, I just, I just, I do a lot of yoga. I just have been in the photos and breathing. And yeah, I just don't have the energy for anything else. Like, my whole life is so busy and doing. So when I go to uni, I'm just like, ah, like, just just chill out. Yeah, it's so different. I sold my husband on yoga, the only way I could get into a greater guy was to explain that it's basically lying on the floor with a blanket for 75 minutes. Sounds like you can wear your pjs like, you will be in a flat position. Yeah, it's very chill. Yeah, and that's the other thing too, like now like, because I used to also work in the fitness industry. So it was, it was all about what your looks like, and what the latest fashion was on the chain and all these whatever's. And now I just literally will wear my DAG is trackies. And I don't care, like if I've got an old jumper or whatever, because then I'm not going upside down. So I don't have to worry about you know, things coming up. And it's like, it's totally changed. And yeah, it's, and there's actually this guy now that does classes, just with breathing. All he does is breathing. And so this is amazing that he's actually guy went to school with that it'd be the last face at the world. We have a you know, a revelation and come come to that sort of sort of living. But yeah, it's wonderful. Love it. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I was naming. I think during the early stages of the pandemic, I remember that first lock down that everyone did like the sort of month long one, the very, you know, March or April 2020 whenever it was, and I remember all of my musician, friends, because we everyone had got job keeper. So no one was worried about making ends meet because they were getting paid to stay home or not work. i The overwhelming rhetoric coming out of every single person that I knew was I am so relieved to have this time off like people were just yeah, you know, and obviously, it got worse. And it got more complicated. And people wanted to go to back to work after that. And they couldn't. But yeah, I remember that strike, it was just like this exhale of like, wow, we're just on this hamster wheel 24/7. And just not only being able to not work and not have things in the calendar, but giving yourself the permission to not have to be constantly practicing and hustling and looking for the next thing. I remember thinking like, wow, we're going to learn so much from this. And then if I look at myself and the people around me, I think that we've struggled to implement those lessons on top. Certainly, I feel the same. Yeah. Yeah. Because you know, coming back, and then you've got to make hay while the sun shines, right. Like that's, that's it? Yeah. As soon as we had the opportunity to make money and to rebuild profile, and to get those opportunities, sort of, you know, rolling again, we all sort of had to do that. And that's unfortunately, how this industry works. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think there's been a return to balance really, because I think we're all being sold to that society was ready to open up and everyone, everyone wanted to get out. And everyone wanted to do things. It's like, yeah, oh, we have to be there on the other side of that to meet these people. You know, so there wasn't this. Yeah. Like, I can relate to that completely. I had, we had a we have a thing called the it's like the, it's not as big as the Adelaide Fringe Festival. We call it the Fringe Festival down here. Sorry. I hadn't mean. And I had two shows. And I because I was doing a show with my sister, which I wanted to do. And then I'd said yes to this other one without them thinking, Oh, I actually have to rehearse for this and promote this and organize this. Some reason all I had in my head was the geek just being on stage throwing up and do it. Yeah. And I just said, Oh, my God, what have I done? And so yeah, when they pulled the pin on it, I actually was so relieved. I thought, yeah, God for that, like all the pressure of rehearsal. Yeah. Balancing family life and everything and pushing it the promotion and all that sort of stuff was like, Oh, thank God, that's not happening. But yeah, as time went on, it became like, oh, okay, so yeah, everything's canceled now. And obviously, we weren't locked down. but people weren't doing anything. No one was taking bookings. And I was encouraging groups of people and you couldn't dance. There's no dance. Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you what, but yeah. And I said to myself, I'll just remember this time how good it is. And then you forget, but now I've really pulled back from gigs since then, like I've really, and, and I think, to just looking at, you know, my family life and the balance that we have, like you said about before, we're talking about the monetary reward for doing a gig, you also have to look at, you know, the emotional strain and the physical titling. And I just also got sick of carrying my stuff around, like, just the thought of loading the car just made me do it. Like I complain constantly about being a drummer. I'm like, why? Worst life choice? I wouldn't change it. But yeah, totally. It's, I for me to say yes to things. Usually, there has to be a house kit like that. It has to be a gig I really, really want to do if I have to be wiring my own stuff. Because, you know, maybe our sport when I was in Melbourne, and there are lots of house kits and venues but yeah, I'm just that it has to be the this the path of least resistance. Yes. This is my philosophy for taking on new things. Yeah, I and I do a lot of like, you know, guest lecturing and stuff in unis with music students, and you know, younger people coming into the industry. And I always one thing I always say as a piece of advice is like, if someone asks you to do something, before you say yes, just pause, pause. Because once that yes is out there, you can't retract it. Yeah. And like you've probably said yes, without really understanding the true scope of, of what's within that opportunity, you know, because like, you probably just gonna get a text that says, hey, free on June 16, for a gig and of text. We need we need a little bit more detail here. Like, you know what time? What's the soundcheck? What's the repertoire? How many hours do I need to commit to learning this material? Do I need to bring my own key out? What will I wear? What's the fee? Like? You really you need to I always say that you should reply with a big laundry list of questions. And you know, really, like put them on the back foot like this is a way that everyone in this industry, I think can be trying to educate each other as to what's an acceptable working environment. Because like you said before, there's so many young people, unfortunately, he'll just jump at the chance to do something for exposure. And like I'm not saying that doesn't have a place it does. For a very, very limited time in your early Korea. But it's I think the way that we fall over is like, oh, when is the point when you transition out of that? And who tells you when to transition out of it. Unfortunately, there's no one else standing there being like, Okay, it's time to do this now. You know, we found that coming back to Perth, I think that's why my husband and I were both completely run ragged at the end of what's today's the second of January. So the end of last year, we you know, transition back, we packed up our house in Melbourne on four days notice to be able to get into wa so like when I say it was quick, it was quick. You know, we really just had to hit the ground running, readjust to living here readjust to living in a pre pandemic society drop all of our trauma or somehow like hardly process it. Yeah. And then like, start getting back into the music community and be like, Hey, we're here. We want to work. You know, that was massive transition, like you know, starting again in a new city is just the same I think as as starting your career. When Yeah, yeah. It's like that process of having a duel that networking and stuff again. That's yeah, took a toll for sure. I think it's good to have that first 12 months back in Perth, like under the belt now, even though it was from here. I hadn't been here for a long time. And he hadn't been here at all. So yeah, it's like basically starting afresh, isn't it? Because yeah, yeah, that that was something I had. I'm not sure if you know, Georgia field. She's a Melbourne. Yeah, amazing. Yes, she is. She's amazing. I love Georgia. So she came on the podcast in its first season. And she sort of related the time she had off when she had her children to basically starting her career again, because you're going back into venues, there might be a different, you know, manager and they're like, oh, what we're going to bring, you know, yeah, yeah, it was that was really challenging for here. And yeah, yeah. And I think one of the things that I was really lucky actually, when I had when I became a mother was that it wasn't like I disappeared from society because I was on this sort of mat leave and the rest of the world kept going, the whole world stopped. So it was actually there was like a bit of solidarity in that I was protected from that, I suppose unique isolation in that everyone was isolated. And everyone was sort of going through That existential crisis of like, oh my gosh, should I just start playing easy to become a data analyst? Everyone was going through that at the same time. So that was I would say that was one of the Silver Linings for sure. Some they were the last the sky seven days to slow down it's only when made outside your daughter's two and a half. Yeah. So what are your days look like now? Yeah, so we are she has been going to childcare she started pretty early. I think that was because I wanted I wanted to go back to work at the time in Melbourne, because we were in lockdown. And I, I was just really struggling, you know, with having no life. So we put her in, and she started going three days a week, and she's kept going three days a week, which has been really good. And she now goes to my mums as well like another sort of one or two days a week. So actually were extremely privileged and fortunate is basically what I'm trying to say and that we have close to five days a week of of care for her. Which means in those five days, my husband, I both pretty much just flat out working. I wouldn't say that we get a lot of time to practice, even though we have all of set with all of that care, like I'm studying as well. So my course load is sort of one to two days a week. And I work I work as a peer support worker now. For a business where we support people on NDIS for mental illness. So I work two to two and a half days a week. Then my course load, I would say is at least 20 to 30 hours a week. And then yeah, there's all this like practice that I'm allegedly doing, which I can tell you in full confidence that I just never do. And does she look after my daughter goes to bed at night? It's so funny. I often I'm like there's parents out there that keep going after their kid goes to bed base. I'm not one of them like that. That is the end of my day. Come 738 o'clock at night. I'm a vegetable. I am good at getting up early. Actually he is too because he was yeah, he's we're an early rising family, my daughter included. So I will usually we will set our alarms for about 430 or five and get up an hour before her. And that time. For me that's really, really integral time for sort of self care. And like I'll do my own yoga practice then and just like, yeah, just get a jump on the day, maybe go and make a quick list of what else I need to get done. And yeah, once she's awake, obviously, it's just like a long form negotiation and getting dressed and eating rice bubbles. You can leave the house and yeah, that's sort of the routine really weekends. I usually try to keep like the Saturday morning as a really quiet family time. Because you know, she's got a big week to like, yeah, being out of the house every day. So that's Yeah, even though the weekends is like, you know, it's it's work time, I reckon. Yeah. sandeels and I both probably work in some form or capacity. Seven days a week, we're chipping away at stuff, I would say seven days a week. We're using her nap time and like tag teaming on the weekends for sure. To get stuff done. But yeah, that Saturday morning is like sort of the Sacred Family time of yeah, just being really slow. And in our jammies. Yeah. Because that's the thing like, I don't know, I don't want to judge other people in the way they do things. But I could not be bothered rushing around on the weekends. Like I feel like we rushed around enough during the week and saying being respectful that your kids are rushing around to a time to to reset and readjust and decompress. And that sort of thing, too. It's like, like we've we've managed to avoid Saturday morning sport for nearly 15 years. Oh, wow. That's actually remarkable. Yes, it is. We've been very lucky. But now my youngest is started playing tennis. So it's like tennis. Is that safe anyway? Oh my god. What is this world? Yeah, I know. I mean, look, when I was a kid, I went to school on a Saturday morning for concert band. Oh, yeah. Right. So yeah, I had before school and after school every day. And then my parents would have to drive me on a Saturday morning to band wait in the car for three hours. Yeah, yeah. But I guess things are different then because you could trust your kids to go out and make their own way around a little bit more and like sort of get public transport. Like I don't know what it's like in that Gambia. But I think you know, when I sort of forecast what it's like to be the parent of a teenage girl which I will be I'm like, oh my god, it's things are gonna have to be so it's just so different to the way that my parents were so relaxed and bohemian with us. We were just doing our own thing. Like, you know, lucky, everything worked out fine. But yeah, we were on a pretty long leash. And I don't I, I just don't think you can parent that way. Probably. anymore with the same confidence, unfortunately, I wish to think about it all the time. Yeah. And yeah, the whole social media thing that's been that's a tricky one to navigate to, because we didn't grow up with that ourselves. And how do you sort of had an eye? It's a tricky one. That's that's one that's constant work in China, it's so hard, like, I'm really conscious of being on my phone in front of Matilda. And, you know, the more that she's going to see me on my phone, the more she's going to desire a phone as as cool thing to play with. So yeah, I do. Yeah, I tried to sort of be in the other room, if I have to, like send a quick text or, you know, get back to somebody. But it's also that thing, I suppose if just, if someone needs a response from me, and I'm with my child, they will they'll, they can just wait until, until I'm ready to respond to them. Like, I definitely don't feel that pressure to send someone an instant response. Like I think that there's enough. There's enough conversation and visibility around parenting and working for yourself now that I think we can all support each other to I've had other mums say to me, like, I can't get back to you right now. My kids like doing a poo in a park in the lawn. can relate? I don't even need to write that message like exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. And I think, yeah, in the same way, I feel like businesses because of the social media, and because they're on like, it's 24/7. People feel like they can send people messages anytime day or night. And because sometimes I'm so guilty in the morning, because I'm like, Hello, world. Yes, I feel like people have to be really strict with their boundaries. And then people have to respect that. It's like, oh, we're gonna do so yeah. Great. It's a whole new world, isn't it? We're learning to navigate together. I'm struggling to find a genie. And so you say about your working on the weekend? Do you ever feel like I like to talk to all my moms about this concept of mom guilt? And I hate the term. I wish it didn't exist, but I know it does. What does that mean to you? Or how do you feel about that? Yeah, I mean, I think it certainly exists. And I think it's an almost inescapable phenomenon. Yeah, a couple are earlier last year now. 2022. So I went away to Tasmania for 10 days. And I did a a creative music intensive with the Australian Art orchestra, which, when I applied for, I mean, I started the year last year, like, I was still breastfeeding, like, I breastfed until she was just under two. And I just applied for it and thought, you know, what, if this is meant to happen, I'll get in, they'll give me a place, I'll rediscover what it was like to be a museum again, and like be a creative person, because I'm really deprioritize being a creative in my own right. That whole time, really, I'd say I was living in Melbourne, like I just really focused on festival work, and which is a different type of creative work and problem solving. But it's not writing and playing music. So that was a really, that was a really big thing, you know, going away for such a long time. And I'd waned her by then, but still, I remember right up until I got on the plane. I was like, I'm gonna turn around and go home. This is crazy. Like, who am I to take 10 days away from my child and to put that load on to my partner? And yeah, I did. I did have a lot of guilt for sure. About what, like I said before, what the cost of that was for everyone else. And you know, we're lucky that we have so much family support, so I really just didn't have to worry about her. She could not have cared less that I was gone. Definitely was harder for me. But yeah, I it was that was a big shift for me going on that trip. I'm so glad I did it like it was there was about 25 of us from around Australia and a couple of people came from overseas and we were in the central highlands of Tasmania, super remote, little village. It was just just out group each day. And one of the other producers from the orchestra who was sort of the operations manager He brought his partner and their young child down from Melbourne and their child was very similar age to my daughter. And I had this moment where we were watching a performance, which was a very, very moving performance of some Aboriginal singers and song makers from up in Arnhem Land. And I was sitting there watching and I was watching this mum play with her, bought her little boy, and I just my whole being just imploded into tears, like it was just like this catharsis of really profoundly missing my daughter. But at the same time, I was so grateful for being able to be there. But I think just realizing, really, really realizing in my core for the first time, that my whole identity was completely different. And that that person that I was watching, play with her child was me like, that was myself. And that was, yeah, I just sort of hadn't really realized it and looked at it from the outside. Like that until that moment. But yeah, the guilt that I had to sort of wade through, I think to take that time for myself was immense. Yeah, and yeah, there's always like people, and I feel like people make comments as well. You know, if you're, if you happen to be related to anyone who parented in a different generation, it's very hard to escape. Yeah. Other people's points of view. Absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, it is, it is a thing. And I think that's probably for me why? Because I do, like I said, you know, I've got her almost in five days of care, which is a lot. So the time that I do spend with her, I want to be really, really present. And I think that's for me, I'm able to sort of put them on gear on the back burner, because I know that I am really present with that time. And nothing else is allowed to intrude into the time that we spend together. You know, like when she comes home at the end of the day we play we have a dance party like um, yeah, I feel like I'm a fairly present parent. Maybe I'm just telling myself that to obey the monkey. But yeah, I usually I wouldn't say that. My thoughts elsewhere when I'm with her, I suppose. Yeah. So after you went on that trip, was it then did you feel like I guess you talked about the realizing who your your identity had changed was that then when you came back? Did you then find it difficult to then have those two parts of your identity coexist? Was that a challenge then? Or was that really? Yeah? No, I haven't found it to be a challenge. I think, you know, what it's actually makes it a lot easier is the fact that I'm able to share music with my daughter. And it's such a huge, I can see in her that that's something that she loves. And I guess I'm quite fortunate. Like, I mean, for example, she wouldn't let she never let me Of course play my instrument at home. I'm not allowed to do any practice ever because toddlers are very self centered world to revolve around them. So if your attention is elsewhere that she and she's not like a wallflower about it. She's like a flaming volcano of rage about I'm not paying attention to her. So yeah, I was never able to even even like, you know, anecdotally play the ukulele and sing her song was not allowed. So I was thinking when I was in Tassie, I was like, what, what's the get around for this, because this is really pissing me off. And so I thought she's, she, she wants it to be about her. So I'll write her a song about her. Yeah, write this song about her, which I recently actually recorded. And I'm just gonna go on a release that I'm doing in a few months time. But that was, you know, one. So I was just looking for creative ways to bring her into the that world so that we could share it together because it's not going to look the same as when I wasn't a parent. And I could go into a room and sit down and have uninterrupted time working on songs or playing my instrument. I can only do that when she's not in the house. Or when she's in theory asleep, like it's getting that time is hard, I suppose is what I'm trying to say. So there's other ways that we can engage together in music. Luckily, it's something that she really loves. Like I took her to a gig last night. There's a band that plays here first Sunday of every month at at the fish pub, and it's just so family friendly and such a vibe like I actually the same bands been going for more than 30 years. So I used to go and see this this same band with my parents. It's so wicked like yeah, being able to kind of bring it into the new generation take her and Yeah, lucky for me, she does. She loves to boogie. Like I've set a pretty strong role model that the dance floor is a place for like cutting sick and inhibitions go so yeah, she's got good staying power on the dance floor. And that's that was it's just so much fun to include her in that so I feel fortunate that it's something that she's willing to get on board with because I definitely if that wasn't the case, there's no way I could bring myself to force her to love music like I I couldn't care less if whether or not she you know wants to become a musician. Despite having two musician parents. I just, I suppose I care that She feels a sense of release from listening to music and a sense of joy and happiness and fulfillment on some level, because that's what I get from it. So yeah, trying to share that with her it has, I would say been the number one joy as a parent being able to share that with her it's soundly whether that Rolla cries this guy. I'm sad. And, you know, the worst thing you can do with music is tell someone how it's supposed to be like, there's Yeah, there really. And I think there's so much of that, that I see in, you know, particularly studying music at a tertiary level, like trying to unlearn the learning of someone being like this is this is jazz, this is classical lateral, this stupid labels that we put on ourselves, which, for me, coming back to Perth has actually been really beautiful and liberating, because I'm fine. I'm in the part of my life now where I just don't care anymore about any of that stuff, like I, you know, sort of was identified so strongly with this like box of, you know, being a very classically educated person for so long and only being, you know, playing in orchestras. And that was what I wanted to do. And then I was like, Well, I couldn't possibly play jazz, or I couldn't be a drummer. And then when I went to Melbourne, to live, I remember going to a jam session that one of the first weeks I was there with a friend and he said, Are you going to get out? But I was like, No. And then I just had a moment of realizing like, no one knows me. Like, I could get up right now. And just, for all they know, I'm a badass drama. Like, maybe, maybe I just like start something new, you know? And so I just sort of got up and was like, I'll just gonna, I'm going to say this is the thing that I do. And yeah, overcoming that self stigma, I think is a really a big, it's takes time. I would say that's the best thing about betting in my 30s. And just not caring what people think anymore. It's definitely because it's your it's your everyone's just their own worst enemy. Really? Like that's what takes the longest to overcome. Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's a common theme with people chat, too. It's like 30s and 40s. It's like, literally, you could not give a shit. It's wonderful. When you think back on your younger years, and it's like, Oh, my God, what did I think I What will I think was wrong with me like, yeah. And you think all the things that you could have done, but you didn't do? Because you held yourself back? Yeah. Barney Hill. Yeah. So funny thing is, I can tell I'm super old now. Because I find myself thinking things like youth is wasted on the young. I'm like, I'm an old person. I'm there I've arrived Is there anything else that you want to mention about what it's like being a mom and doing your thing? God just said, I just don't, don't get it right, more than half the time or, or any of the time ever. I think it's just so funny, because, you know, sometimes you have days that you just think I nailed it. And then the next day is just like, the apocalypse. Just like the tire can change. So so quickly, you know, you go from and as I think, this year, I for the past year, maybe we were just really, you know, our immune systems were compromised for being in lockdown. But as the sickness just really got to us, and that was a really difficult thing to contend with. So yeah, we had days where everything was like, perfect. And then the next day, like, you know, my daughter's in emergency on a respirator. They can just take so quickly. No, I don't have anything else. Really, I've got no words of wisdom, just just try to you know, take it one day at a time. I think everyone just needs to be more gentle on themselves. So that's probably and particularly where we are now. I don't want to say post pandemic, because we're still in it. But I think everyone's very tired. Actually, I think there's a deep fatigue and exhaustion for people in the creative industry, that, you know, we're picking up the tab now for the last couple of years, like in terms of, you know, emotionally in the energy and it's taken a toll. And I think, I think just to acknowledge that for ourselves, as well as you know, acknowledge that the space that we're holding for our children and and For other mums as well, like, I'm so lucky, I've got some of my, my best friends who I went to uni with, you know, a million years ago. And we all studied music together, there were all mums over here together at the same time. And it's so funny because even though I finally after years, we all live in the same place, the majority of our contact with each other is just sending each other like frantic voice memos and never seeing each other and just being like, I really want to see you. It's been three and a half months. And you finally see each other and it's just like, you get five minutes of conversation, because your kids are just running around. Doing Yeah, someone's trying to throw themselves in front of a car like, yeah. Oh, yeah. My sister. And I often joke about that. Like, it was nice to catch up. I don't feel like I spoke to you at all. But yeah, totally. Yeah. So I think you know, just try to have that space for each other as well. But also know that you can, you can take up that space, that's something that I'm still working on that very much, just allowing myself to take up the space of feeling tired and feeling overwhelmed sometimes. And I've, I'm also very guilty of putting myself down because I've only got one child. So I often invalidate my own parenting challenges, because there's only one of her, which is really stupid. And I'm trying to work on not doing comparing myself to people that have more children and being like, Oh, they've got it worse than me. Yeah, those are all things. For sure. No, I'm good on you. But thank you so much for sharing your time with me today. It's been lovely chatting to you. So lovely. And thanks for just like running the podcast. It's so awesome. Oh, I just love it. I just love talking to people. And I don't know, I just, it's just a lot of fun. I don't know. It's just a fun thing. Yeah. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

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Scott Shriner Bass guitarist for rock band Weezer S4Ep102 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This Friday you can enjoy listening to 2 special podcasts to celebrate Father's Day in Australia this coming weekend. The first is from Scott Shriner, bass player in the band Weezer, dad of 2 boys, and husband to author Jillian Lauren who is a previous guest of the podcast! Scott grew up in a musical home and studied jazz from an early age. He played trombone, and then bass guitar. In 2001 he joined American alt rock band Weezer and has ben touring the world since. He is the dad of 2 adopted boys, Jovi and Tariku, and i am so grateful for him giving me this interview between legs of the band's current tour. If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Scott and Weezer thanks to my APRA AMCOS mini online licence agreement. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Scott's interview with Scott and Ian that we reference a few times Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes .....

8 Britt Australian designer 8 Article # 18 August 2023 I started out lettering by accident. I was a very sporty child and genuinely believed I had not a creative bone in my body – to the point that I often got other classmates to help in art/sewing/woodwork classes because I despised what I produced. I was such a perfectionist. But I was guilty of often scribbling over my class books and diaries much to the teacher’s dismay, but if there was a sharpie around, I couldn’t help myself! In 2015 while going through a messy break up I decided to start scribbling quotes on paper, which lead to my first commissioned piece after I shared my work on social media. I was working in marketing at the time and was also responsible for a lot of the graphic design which became a big passion and the two just intertwined perfectly. This eventually led to designing logos, which lead to me now offering full blown brand identity packages. I am a sole trader working from home, which gives me the ultimate flexibility which is what I have been chasing for a long time. I never knew that scribbling with sharpies could lead me to where I am today – and I am glad I had plenty of ‘real jobs’ while I figured it out as I learnt so much from so many amazing people along the way. My mediums range and have done over the past 8 years – but when lettering I consistently use: Paint and ink markers Card or Canvas With graphic design, I rely heavily on: Illustrator Photoshop InDesign Canva I have a 2.5 year old son, Alba and an almost 1 year old daughter, Gia. After a hectic couple of years, I am really starting to find a little more rhythm and balance in work and parent life. Gia has just started two days childcare recently which has helped. Pre that, it was a lot harder to achieve much and meant I was often trying to squeeze things in at night or on the weekend when my husband was around. I genuinely didn’t mind as it was a high priority, I could keep her home as long as I could. When I was pregnant with Gia I would often wake around 2/3am and struggled to fall back to sleep so used to get up and do some work then. I’ve also done my fair share of late nights and weekends. What I do really doesn’t feel like work, so if I spent my entire weekend working, I was OK with that. However, it did eat into family time, so I would often feel guilty that the 4 of us weren’t getting chinks of time together. But then, you end up feel guilty about sending them to childcare to be able to work/create. There is no winning, I swear! Now I have 2-3 days childcare for both Alba and Gia, I have found the balance to be really good for our family. It’s much more clear cut – I work when they’re in care and when they’re home, I don’t. I had a minimum age in mind I wanted them to go to childcare which was my reasoning for holding off – and overall, I am glad I had them home with me for the period/s I did. Now I feel a lot less pressure to achieve anything while they’re home. But one challenge I still face when they are home is when I randomly come up with a new idea and I am not able to immediately execute/get the idea out. So many ideas have been lost because of this – but that’s ok, maybe they really weren’t worth executing in the first place. In regards to support – my husband is the most wonderful support, he is a very hands-on Dad and encourages me to have time away to be creative which means I am able to spend more time being creative if I choose. He is no doubt my biggest support physically and emotionally, and with him by my side I feel like I can honestly achieve anything. "I absolutely want to be more than a mother – not only for myself, my relationship with my husband but to also show my children, specifically my daughter – that you can be a loving mother that is present but also have your own interests and goals outside of raising your children. " Becoming a mother has absolutely influenced my work. I now find myself sharing quotes relating specifically to motherhood with its ups and downs. They resonate for me and often many followers who are in the same place. Sometimes I feel like it may be a detriment though, I do need to look at the bigger picture as a good chunk of my target audience is pre or post the baby days. And Mum guilt? Well, it exists whether you work full-time, part-time or not at all. Society gives us so many mixed messages. Gone are the days women stay home, and that was that. We are a generation that are choosing to live our lives how we please, instead of to please. But the comparison game is very real. We’re surrounded by all kinds of differences - there are mums choosing to work to fulfil their own needs and passions, and there are mums working because they don’t have a choice. Some mums are choosing to stay home, while others are wishing they could afford to the do the same. But it’s important to remember - just because someone is a stay-at-home mum, doesn’t mean that they are present in their role and their children are any better off. And just because someone works full-time, doesn’t mean she wants to be away from her children. I personally feel more mum guilt when I am working/creating as opposed to maybe catching up with friends – and I am not entirely sure why that is. What triggers my mum guilt specifically is usually people giving unsolicited advice. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The way our family is choosing to live our lives is about finding the right balance that works for us an entire family unit. This is why we shouldn’t judge anyone on what they choose to do. We’re all living our own lives, with our own goals and dreams, with kids that have very different needs – there is not a one size fits all approach. Less judgement, more support I say. I have a huge desire to be more than a mother – not only for myself and my relationship with my husband but to also show my children, specifically my daughter – that you can be a loving mother that is present but also have your own interests and goals outside of raising your children. But if I am honest, apart from my ‘work’, there isn’t a lot I do to try and encourage this. I know I need to get better and plan to in the coming months – starting with finally getting back to the gym (I joined today!) and also trying to arrange some kid-free catch ups with friends. It’s imperative I continue to be creative and have my own interests for numerous reasons. When you’re passionate about something, it can be very hard to just switch it off. I was raised to believe hard work and loyalty to your workplace comes first – even before your own needs. That didn’t resonate with me, and I found myself in some dark places because of it –stuck in jobs I hated or working for people I loathed. I wanted to find something I enjoyed doing, that got me excited to get out of bed and go towork for the day. Otherwise, life can become very mundane. It took me a long time to be able to follow my passion and I want my children to be able to see that work doesn’t just have to be something you do because you have to. We spend a huge portion of our lives working – I want to teach them to take the time to try many things and work out what they really love. "We’re all living our own lives, with our own goals and dreams, with kids that have different needs – there is not a one size fits all approach. Less judgement, more support I say." Another reason I have wanted to continue to work is to keep my finger on the pulse. I don’t want to fall behind in a world that’s ever evolving with technology and lose confidence to not return to the workforce because I feel out of my depth. It;s hard not to get caught up in the monetary value at times, but I for sure know what as long as I am creating – whether it be for money or joy – it’s extremely valuable to my wellbeing. But I admit I feel bad sometimes when I know I am creating for the ‘love’ and my husband has the kids, because I feel like if I am away from them then it should be to contribute financially – which even I know should not be the case! In terms of my own mother, I’ve been brought to know she was expected to be a stay-at-home mum, and it would’ve been hard for her to work even (if she wanted to) as my dad did travel a lot for work and could be away for a week or two at a time. But, it really would have benefited her to have her own financial freedom and to step away from being a mother. I often remind myself this in times of guilt. Unfortunately, society was a lot less forgiving 30 years ago. I’ll admit my childhood experience has led me to struggle in this department since becoming a mother – because I felt external expectation to also stay at home. Instead, I have chosen to follow my gut and navigate working with children home and in regular care. Admittedly, I struggled putting both into childcare for numerous reasons, but when I look at the bigger picture and the positives of me working/creating – there is no question it’s the right thing to do. I have a strong urge to feel like I am both contributing to our household financially, and also because my work also gives me so many ‘good feels’ - it makes me a better mother and gives my children a different outlook to what I had. Win, win if you ask me. Contact Britt www.wordshewrote.com.au or Instagram @wordshewrote I have a couple of branding spots open for the rest of the year and some regular client work available BACK

Madison Foley Australian trumpet player S1 Ep12 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Madison Foley is one of Melbourne’s most sought-after trumpet players. Madison began performing professionally from the age of 16 and Madison was a long-time touring member of alt-pop outfit Architecture in Helsinki and has worked with many of Australia’s greats such as Ash Grunwald, Jazzlab Orchestra and Big Scary . Upon returning to gig life after the birth of her son, Madison faced the pressures of not only performing as a new mum but the pressures of pumping breast milk during gigs. The immense challenges she faced were evident with Madison pumping in some thoroughly unsuitable locations and experiencing a lack of support from venues and organisers. She realised the best way to engage venues and fellow musicians was to create an infographic that highlighted the challenges. We also discuss the challenges of being pregnant and having a baby in the midst of the covid-19 pandemic, and the judgement faced by gigging mums - that dads don't have to contend with, and why she doesn't get caught up in "mum guilt" Connect with Madison on facebook and instagram Read Madison's The Mother Lode article and infographic here Find out more about Madison's bands Fools and JazzLab Orchestra Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Madison Foley. Madison is one of Melbourne's most sought after trumpet players. She started performing professionally at the age of 16 and has been a longtime touring member of alt pop outfit architecture in Helsinki. She's worked with many of Australia's greats such as Ashkelon world, jazz lab orchestra, and big scary. After returning to gig life after the birth of her son, Madison faced the pressures of not only performing as a new mum, but the pressure of pumping breast milk during gigs. The immense challenges she faced were evident with Madison pumping in some thoroughly unsuitable locations, and experiencing a lack of support from venues and organizers. She realized the best way to engage venues and fellow musicians was to create an infographic that highlighted the challenges. We chat not only about this infographic, but we also discussed the challenges of being pregnant and having a baby in the midst of the COVID 19 epidemic. The judgment faced by gigging mums that dads just don't have to contend with and why she doesn't get caught up in mum guilt. Welcome to the podcast Madison, it's lovely to have you today. Thanks for coming on. Thank you so much. I'm very happy to be very excited. So you played the trumpet. Tell us how you got into playing the trumpet. So my, my dad was a brass band still is a brass band leader in the community and Tom music at school. And so he came around to our primary school actually. And they had all the instruments out so they were starting a primary school band program. I was all of five years old at the time, I think maybe six. And I walk up to the guy, I'm precocious little six year old and I go hi, I want to know, which is the loudest instrument I want to play that one and so they had me a corner the rest is history. You know so going up through you know, started in primary school went through the local community bands and into high school played the whole way through. You know, I ended up doing it at university and you know, just never put it down again since I was five years old, basically from a couple of small breaks but yeah, that's pretty confident in my life. So what how many instruments do you play? Well look, well I played the trumpet Well, poorly a lot of them I can play very bad keyboard and very very bad bass. Nearly no mostly bad drums can play a little bit of trouble I can play most of the brass instruments I can play a bit of trombone a bit tube or a bit of French on although my trombone playing sisters would probably beg to differ. But you know, they've not none of them really get a lot of love. Now it's mostly just the trumpet. Because at some stage in your life, you kind of have to focus in on one thing which has never been my strong point. I've always been someone who does everything so well I can play the trumpet so I read that you started playing professionally when you were 16 So what sort of gigs we did you start off with what was sort of the stuff you were doing at that age. Um, so at 16 I was my mom would take me down to the pub to go and watch Friends of mine Johnny wonder Pat, who I still play with now all of what that 16 years later so that was they were some of my first gigs I go down to the pub and just sit in with them. I learned a few horn lines to some tunes. They just played covers on a Sunday afternoon and they you know, they thought it was great there was this you know little 16 year old super key and little Maddie going Hi, will you let me play with you. And then I also at school we formed a little jazz group and did you know gigs for like 50 bucks each or whatever, just whoever would hire us just playing some jazz standard. So which that group actually have gone on to all be quite prolific muses themselves. There's Cleo Rana, who now plays rock winds and tours around the world with Angus and Julia Stone as Nick Abbey who's over in mapa. Now and I think he teaches there and will Morrissey, who played He's with Vance Joy, and it's all just, you know, everyone from that little group just ended up going on to do amazing things. It's pretty cool to look back on that now. But you know, there those were mostly my 16 year old gigs either at the pub or at random corporate events that wanted to hire some kids really cheap, basically. Do you so what did that sort of been leading to? You mentioned other people that you've you were with did certain things What have you done then since since those 16 year old days. So since then, I, I studied at the VCA. So I did the improvisation course there, which is jazz. And, look, I'm basically, I'm a freelance music. So I will do literally anything that anyone calls me up to do so long as it sounds like a bit of fun, but there's a bit of money in it. So I've, you know, I've done small, small group jazz, I've done plenty of big bands. So currently play with the jazz live orchestra, and helped organize that one as well. Both Dan McKenzie big band, and a few others around the place. I was in the touring band for architecture in Helsinki for years and years, which was really, really fun, we got to play some amazing concerts to 1000s of people. And, you know, I've done plenty of corporate gigs, or a lot of corporate gigs. Plenty of them going around. My current my current project, which is probably the thing I'm most excited about, in all of my music career so far is a band called falls. And it's a 13 piece, Americana, pop, rock, everything. So extravaganza, it's just the most joyful band I've ever played in without any offense to any of the other major bands are playing. It's just, it's a, we call it the love cult, because everyone just loves each other and loves making music together. So that's been that's been getting really big and going really well. But of course, with COVID, a lot of our grand plans of keep falling away, we're supposed to be touring in about six weeks time, up to New South Wales and Queensland, to do Caloundra and, and a blues fest, and Nashville, but all of those things are not looking super likely. But hopefully, hopefully fools keeps getting out there and keeps getting some of those very cool gigs and planning tours overseas and everything. So it's exciting times for that. And that's nice, because that's something I get to be really creative with as well, all the other, you know, pop groups I've been in have been more, you know, this is the song, this is your home lines, play them now kind of thing. Whereas this one, I'm helping to write all the phone lines, we're writing songs off together. So it's a real kind of combined effort with 13 people, it's very, that'd be like controlled chaos, almost 13 People input. absolute chaos. It's hilarious, but it's just the most fun I have doing anything musically. It's so great. Oh, that's awesome. Because I guess you're doing a lot of corporate gigs, you'd sort of be doing the songs that people know you'd stick to your standards. And, you know, you'd be limited, I guess to what you could do. So this would just be like, you know, open the floodgates off you go have fun with that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, the jazz stuff is really creative as well. And, you know, if, if I was so inclined, you know, there's, there's plenty of creativity, I could follow in there, but I just don't have I don't have the focus to kind of sit down and write a whole set of tunes myself and you know, kind of get that all together. It just takes so much work. So it's something that I have done in the past, something I maybe would do in the future. But for now I'm kind of letting that one, you know, the the jazz side of things. I'm just doing the big bands and then letting the creativity come out in falls. Wow, that sounds awesome. So I've got to ask you, did you ever come to Mount Gambia for generations in jazz? Yes. As Gambia tragic I still am I've you know, I forced my school to let me take my big band there. That was like, now Gambia was a life that was I lived for me, you know, that early weekend, in May, every year, I went to Wellesley College, which was you know, a big kind of big band school, my dad actually took the band there. So it was all we ever talked about from like, you know, about October through to May everything was about generations in jazz and you know, going into there and getting like just getting exposed to all those amazing music shows on the stage was amazing. And then going back as an as an adult and as a teacher has been really lovely as well and kind of seeing it change and into something completely different now. It's been really nice to be part of that and share that with my students now and see them experience that joy. Pretty cool. It's growing so much. I remember mom taking me when we were kids, when they used to be Girl, I think her name was Kelly. And she played saxophone on on her head Sunday. And I remember seeing her play. We're only at this Robert Hillman Theatre, which I'm not sure if you're familiar with, but it's basically your normal size data. Yeah. And now it's grown to I don't know how many 1000s people, it's the biggest tent in the southern hemisphere. Like all this, it's gone bonkers. And it's so wonderful. We've missed a couple of years. I remember seeing Kelly early as well, I've played in a lot of women's section with her since she's one of the ways to play with the mice. So if you ever see her, tell her I remember seeing it when I was a little girl, I would have only been probably, I don't know, to 1213, maybe maybe a bit older. But yeah. It's such a generational thing. And my whole family are involved, you know, because my dad took the Wesley guy and now takes the St. Leonard's band, my sister was taking the law, the whole band, to just schools in Melbourne, my younger sister was taking the band from Caulfield, like it was you know, we had all of us there, my uncle was volunteering there. So when you you know, every year we get a family photo at generations in jazz, and just all have a laugh about the fact that the whole family is still there, we just can't get away from it. Just let me speak for union come together in my life, it's a real shame that hasn't been able to happen the past couple of years you been able to do any teaching during COVID, like you're you locked down in, in Melbourne, it's great. Because I've been basically I've been filling in for the girl that was filling in for me at the school, so I I've been able to, you know, do my teaching, go back look, after Sam come back, you know, do another class go back and kind of share those duties, which has been really nice. It's actually been quite handy for me in terms of the thing locked in. And, you know, I've got all my resources from last year. And I'm probably one of the few teachers who actually quite enjoys online teaching, I love the challenge of it, you know, having to find different ways to present it and different ways to engage students using the technology. And it's just incredible how much we can do from home, you know? Yeah, I've been doing a fair bit of teaching from there. And then all these other little bits and pieces of you know, everyone's getting into the lockdown recordings again. So I did one last week, I think, for all day for it, which is like a kid's band slash jazz band, which is pretty fun. Falls, we're doing another one this week. We were doing one every couple of weeks back last year, which was very fun. So you know, it's, it's kind of, it's nice to do things in a different way and just change it up a bit. So I like looking at the positives here. And you know, just different sets a different way of living, but I kind of like it. My partner and I were supposed to get married last year, and then we're going we're gonna go on a great European adventure. We put all this cash aside, we've been saving our butts off to, to do all of that. And none of it happened. So and then I was getting maternity leave. And he's, he's kind of back at work now. So we've been lucky throughout all of it that we haven't had to struggle with gigs being canceled and stuff. I mean, we've lost plenty of money. But yeah, it's we've been thought more fortunate than others. So you mentioned Sam then so tell me about your little person. Sorry, my little person he's about is just about 10 months old. He is the absolute life of my life is the best thing that's ever happened. You know, I was very happy and very fulfilled person before having a kid. But I always knew I wanted a baby. I always not always know so I was terrified of children until I was about 23. And then I actually looked after one of my trumpet idols Ingrid Jensen in New York. I actually helped babysit her baby a few times just through you know, mutual friends and I was there and I didn't have a job and ended up kind of nannying for a couple of weeks. And I was like, actually, I love children. This is amazing. And from then on, it was like, Alright, this is something I want to do in life. So then, yeah, being with my wonderful partner, Carlo. I mean, we knew each other back when I was probably 1718 Just hanging out in the music crowds because he's a saxophone and woodwind player. He does all the jazz gigs and stuff but more so now he does in musical theater. So he plays for all Big shows. So we just knew each other through mutual friends for years and years, and then actually, jokingly got engaged about 10 years ago, I called the bouquet and I said, I'll call I don't have anyone to marry. And he said, Don't worry about it, I'll marry you. And I know, okay, and then, you know, like another, like, five or so years down the track. We ended up, you know, finding each other and going, Oh, this is a pretty cool little thing. And, you know, as things went along, and you know, from the start, I was like, I want to have kids just so, you know, this is a thing, and we were both very, you know, by very happy with that path. And then yeah, we kind of decided to, you know, not stop trying, but you know, not prevent anything and just see what happens, just throw caution to the wind. And, you know, lo and behold it a year and a half later, little Sam came into the world. So we found out we were pregnant, just at the very start of COVID. So it was kind of pretty scary times. And, you know, it was a bit of a surprise, because like, yeah, we've been going along for however long and going okay, like, you know, it's not gonna happen yet. That's all right. And we've been planning our wedding. So at the start of last year, we actually went, you know, what, maybe this year isn't a good time, maybe we should like, wait a little bit longer. And you know, until the timings a bit better. And as soon as we said that, of course. They got me pregnant. And yeah, then had, you know, nine months later, we had little Sam and so he's, you know, he's crawling now he's walking. Now he talks a lot like his mum. And like his dad, really. But he looks like me. So he's, he's good. Because of the pregnancy found out on the first of March, which, you know, thinking back to the timeline, that was kind of when things were starting to creep out of China and into other countries. It hadn't quite come to Australia yet. There was only maybe a couple weeks shy of that. But it was on its way. I remember coming out of staff briefing in the morning. So I was working. At the time, I was working full time as a head of Performing Arts. And I was also studying part time, 20 hours a week and doing gigs as well. So I was pretty busy. And I just I just handed in an assignment on the day, we found out I'd handed in my second last assignment, so I was exhausted. And we came out of a briefing like the next day and, you know, our, our principal and said to us, Look, we have to start being really careful, this thing is going to come to us, it's going to get very serious. And I was walking with a colleague and she said, Oh man, my my sister in law's pregnant, how much would it suck to be pregnant right now, and I just started bawling my eyes out on my way to my house drove off is just cry. Because I just thought, this is such an unknown. We don't know what this thing is. We don't know what it means for pregnancy for you know, an unborn baby, for a young baby, we just don't know. And so it was a pretty challenging time, mentally and emotionally. You know, and then in the weeks to come, you know, I had a lot of gigs that I just, I was so scared of what would happen if I got COVID. And it turned into almost like an anxiety about you know, if I get COVID The baby's not going to be okay. So I had to cancel geeks, but I couldn't tell anyone I had to I was working from home for school well before anybody else was, but I couldn't tell anyone why I couldn't come in from meetings. I couldn't come in, you know, it was all very, like, keep me away from everyone. And my principal was really supportive of that. But I think my pregnancy was probably the worst kept secret in Melbourne. Everyone just just looked at me when I okay. Yeah, we figure why you can't come in, but nobody can say anything. Yeah, so it was tricky, because we had to like, you know, keep up pretenses of I've just got a pre existing condition, but everyone knew exactly what was going on. So yeah, you know, then moving along, it was it was tricky, kind of going through and not being able to have family around during the lock downs. I mean, my My poor mom, you know, didn't really get to see me pregnant very much. I just send her photos all the time. And that was that was really tough for her as well to because she lives all the way over the other side of town. There was no way we could even catch up for walks or anything like my sisters live close, Carlos family live close, but my parents live quite far away. And so just not getting to see them. I think I didn't see my dad through the whole or maybe once through the whole pregnancy. It was really tough and definitely took it out. I'll emotionally and in, played on those anxieties a lot. And then I've got a bit sick later on in the pregnancy I got had gestational diabetes, which was an it was a late diagnosis, and I had to be admitted to hospital. And it was all of these things, and it kind of all just snowballed. And, you know, it was, yeah, by the time he came, I was ready to not be pregnant anymore. But then at the same time, you kind of look back and you go, you get to those last few days, and you go, Oh, I kind of like him being in there. And like feeling the cakes, and I like, you know, not having a baby to look after 24 hours a day just yet, you know. But yeah, we ended up ended up getting induced because of the gestational diabetes. And they thought that he was already four kilos at 36 weeks old, or 36 weeks gestation. So they were like, We need to get this child out. Otherwise, he's going to destroy, he did anything. He destroyed me coming out, they had to use the forceps. And, you know, he was he was in all kinds of all kinds of stress and whatnot, but still managed to have a vaginal delivery, which was wonderful. And had the epidural already. So I was having an absolute ball in that room. I just like, I got in there. And I was like, put this thing in my back auto kit as early as possible. I just don't want to feel a thing. And I'll tell you what, we were sitting there. We had disco lights going. We had like people on FaceTime. We were playing games, we're watching TV, we're hanging out chatting a few naps, by the time you just like, ah, be cool, that's fine. It's great, I would highly recommend doing it. I want to ask you, I have never played a winning strip. I'm a singer. So I struggled a lot when I was pregnant, breathing and getting the air in the diaphragm. Really? Was that an issue for you like physically being able to play? Absolutely. I mean, I think in some ways, I'm kind of grateful for having been in lockdown for a lot of the pregnancy, especially the lighter part for that reason, because I didn't ever have to push myself to a point where I went, No, I can't do this anymore. Because all I was doing was, like I said, like ISO recording, it's kind of thing. And so I could do as many tapes of them as I needed, I could do them in a few shots. And I was like if you say that the law schools recording, I had call it pregnant Tammy and continue to be like I mean, it was hard enough, just going for a walk around the block, let alone getting enough air to play the trumpet. So I think if if I hadn't been in normal life trying to do that, I think there probably would have come a point where I just would have had to go no more. So it's kind of nice that I never had to make that decision and and push it to that point. I just got to maybe 30 about 34 weeks and I just mind you this column I can't do anymore. That's fine. I've gotten up I don't need to I was still playing for work up until that stage just playing along with my students and whatnot. But yeah, definitely the breathing thing is hard. Luckily, you know, as soon as the baby's gone, like that all goes you know, your organs move back into place, and it's like they're so similar singing and brass playing. It's all about the diaphragm and all about the, you know, the way that you use it air and the speed of the air and everything just would be really hard. But I've read about people playing trumpet up until 3839 weeks, you know, I think it can happen, but I think those people are very special. I first came across you on the motherlode website. And you've done this amazing article and infographic about the challenges of pumping while you're digging, and I just related to that instantly, and I was like, oh my god, I get this totally I understand. I've pumped in some wacky places and some weed times and I thought, This is wonderful. Someone's actually done something about it. So tell us how that came about. Well, I'm trying to do something about it. You know, it's it's such it's probably the biggest challenge I've faced as a parent. Which sounds like it sounds so trivial, but people don't understand how hard it is and how demoralizing it is to spend all of your break sitting in dingy toilet stall, trying to keep all your beautifully sterilized equipment still sterile when you know the pits all over the floor. And it's like, it's really tough. It kind of came about I have when so when I was pregnant through lockdown, I had to really seek out some opportunities to talk to people who are also pregnant. And it just so happened that there were seven other female users in Melbourne, who I knew who were also pregnant. And like so one kind of emailed me and then said, Hey, Maddie, I saw you're expecting a baby. So a week. And then another one that hey, Maddie, yeah, we're also pregnant. All right, like, and so it just kind of, they all started writing to me, and I went, Wait a second, maybe we could turn this into a group. So we started our, our, what do we call it music moms group. And it was a, like a Facebook Messenger group, pregnancy support group, we do zooms kind of every week or two, and just talk about what was going on how we were feeling shared, you know, experiences of pregnancy, all of our fears about, you know, post, you know, giving birth and what that would look like, how we were going, you know, everything and it was just the most beautiful group, and they still are the most beautiful group of humans who just kind of pump each other up and keep each other going. And so now it's turned into from a pregnancy group, everyone's now had their babies, and it's a, it's a, you know, parents group, and we catch up, you know, pretty locked down, we we catch up every so often we get our Barb's together, they have a play, we have a talk or a drink, or beer or whatever we can do. All the guys come along, as well. They're mostly musicians, as well. And so it's turned into this amazing kind of support group. So when I was, you know, early on, when doing lots of gigs, through that kind of, you know, summer, you know, February, March, April, May season when things were really busy. And I was going out, you know, two, maybe three nights a week, and, you know, pumping in all kinds of places. And it was just feeling so hard. I mean, I got to the point of wanting to either give up and just, you know, go with formula, or, you know, if I'm doing it felt overwhelming, you know, having to take all of the equipment, you know, you're in these, you know, you're in a nice dress for the gig and you have to get the whole dress off, you have to put everything on you have to strap the things in, you have to plug them in, you have to turn the thing on, then you have to sit there for 15 minutes, then you have to wash everything. And then you have to get all back into your little box and into the bag. And the whole process takes the entire break if not longer. And I just so I'd be writing to my news. Oman's groups just being like, guys, is anyone else finding this really hard? And it was it was a shared experience that we were all going? How, like, how can we make this any better? How can we then it's so hard to, you know, keep pumping and keep doing this in the way that we're doing it. Some of the mums are amazing. And they will just like pull out all their gear and pump in front of anyone and sit there in the front row during the set break or whatever, and do it for me. I couldn't I couldn't get across. I ran having like literally having my nipples out in front of people. I'm very happy breastfeeding in front of people because there's a baby's head there, you know, but pumping feels a lot more exposed. And so I tried to think about how we could possibly just inform people of what you know what, what it is why it's important how they can make it easier. I was inspired by a Linda chintzy, who's in our museum moms group. She's going back. She's the leading Moulin Rouge. And she was saying you know that the the company have made all these amazing accommodations. She's got a five month old, I think I'm really sorry, forgot that wrong. But she's got a little Holly rose. And they've made all of these accommodations to make sure that she can keep pumping and have Holly there to feed and have her partner there to bring her in and all of that. And I thought, you know if they can make those accommodations, maybe other people can do. So I was doing I did three gigs for four gigs for the mid summer festival in Melbourne. And I just put it out there and I just wrote to the people who are organizing the gig and said, Hey, I'm a breastfeeding mom. Here's some things that would be really good if I could have my own room to pump in or just a private room with a door that I could just say to people hey, I'm going into pump right now. You know if I could have a fridge to store the milk in if I could have access to a sink so these are just all the things that the the IDA or the you know, Fair Work actually say that you need to have in your workplace, but obviously it's harder when your work pace changes every week. And you know what? They came back and they said yes, and they they gave me those things and I went ah But this is possible. It's not always possible. But it is possible a lot of the time for people to actually organize these things. And they were beautiful about it. They had my name on the door and they have my partner's name. They'd put everything in there that I could possibly need. And I just, I thought, let's try and make this people know that they can ask for these things. And so I started to become more vocal about it. And then, using those new moms groups, I actually workshopped and found out what they were finding hard, what their suggestions are that we could put into it and came up with this infographic that basically just says, Here, here's a bunch of things you can do. Firstly, here's why it's important, we need to keep our milk supply up. And to do that, you have to pump every three to four hours, we need to be able to have a space to do it, it takes 25 minutes, at least, you know. And so here's a list of things that you can do as a bandleader, as a venue manager, to make sure that people who are pumping or breastfeeding can feel comfortable to do it at your venue or at your gig. And the the response when I put it out to Facebook was just amazing. Like I was overwhelmed, I thought a few people would sit and be like, oh, cool, that's great. I might borrow that and show it to some people like it got shared over to New Zealand, it got shared all around Melbourne and, and a bunch of different places. And I think people have really taken it on board. I know a lot of people that I work with have been like, you know, we're going into a set and the set time has been changed. They've been like, hey, Maddie, if you need to leave early to go and pump, you know, that's fine, but set time has changed. Just leave whenever you have to. So they're making those accommodations. I mean, I really do, but it's nice to just be considered in that way and know that we have the option to like, hey, if I really need to park right now I can just walk off and go kind of thing. So it's it's been quite a journey and then during the motherlode motherlode interview was amazing as well, Georgia fields is incredible. And you know, made it all sounds so lovely and succinct or my you know, ramblings but it's, it's been a real journey. And I kind of coming over the other side of it now, you know, being 10 months old. You know, he's he's getting to the stage where he only has like, a few feeds a day. And it's like, wow, I survived that I survived that having to pump and having to feed every three hours, when those days where I was out at a gig out of town, and I was, you know, out of the house for 12 hours. It's like, it's a lot. And I feel quite, I feel quite proud of myself and all the other moms that have done that and been through it and made it you know, made it work. Yeah, absolutely. No good on you. I was so impressed when I saw it. And it probably I can think of times when it would have come in really handy because I, I guess I never thought to ask it was never it never occurred to me that that I could ask it was just like, well, this is your thing. So you need to sort it out. I never sort of thought I never Yeah, it just never occurred to me. So well done you round of applause. On the interview with the motherlode, you said something like times when you've been pumping in a really yucky toilet stall and, you know, close to tears, and you wondered, was it worth it? Probably not at that moment, but later did you sort of you obviously thought that it was because you kept going it was really important to you to be able to maintain that milk supply for your baby. But also, you know, it was important for you to keep playing and to to keep that part of your life really active as well. Absolutely. I, I, I know that I'm a better mom, because I have my music as well. I really feel that deep down in my soul that they're having the music especially, you know, and like doing the corporate gigs and everything, it's a bit of fun, you get a bit of money, it's pretty good. But they're things like falls and those jazz gigs that really feed my soul. I come back home and I'm completely revitalized as a parent, you know, getting that time away from Sam, who is the most important and the most beautiful thing in my whole entire world. But getting the time away from him, actually makes me appreciate him so much more. I mean, I was he was six weeks old when I did my first recording session back. And they were I was out of the house for maybe eight hours. I mean, I hadn't been away from him for that long, obviously. And it was you know, I thought I would really struggle. But it was it was an amazing recording session, syncing south with falls and I came home and I just felt I felt like myself again. After six weeks of being completely attached to this small human and just being at his whim, whatever he needed. He needed. Get on that moment. And, you know, I got to go away, step away from it and come back. And I was so grateful for that time. And I'm also so grateful that my amazing partner Carlo, you know, does everything he's, he's not scared and looking after the baby out or you know, and he's been hands on from the very start. I mean, because there was no theater, you know, for the first eight months of Sam's life Carlo has been with us, aside from his teaching pretty much full time. So we've been able to really manage that between the two of us. But yeah, they're having the gigs to go to, I think keeps me sane. You know, before I went back to teaching, it was the thing that kind of made me feel like me again. And I think that's so important for, for creative parents to still have those things I, I was never going to put down my trumpet and not play as a parent. And also, I'm a really stubborn human being. And if someone tells me like, Oh, you're not going to want to play much once here, once you have your baby, you're going to want to just stay home. I was like, I heard shorts your show. Cool. Cool. Cool. All right, watch me go. And so now I'm gonna be a bit more determined than before, I think I've been practicing even more than I was, before I had a baby, because I'm just like, You know what, I want to go out there and show people that being a mum. I mean, being a parent in general, but especially being a mum does not stop you from being an amazing musician, and amazing artists and amazing teacher, whatever it is that you do. It's another thing in your life that is very, very important. And yes, your priorities change. But it doesn't stop you being amazing at what you do in that moment. And I've had people kind of, you know, second guests that I've had people be like, oh, so all your backup gigs. Oh, really? That's, that's soon? Oh, that's interesting. And you know what I just say to them, I'm like, why wouldn't I be? Actually, I think you'll find I'm paying better than I was beforehand, so that you've put so much effort into, like all the background, they just see you at the gig, they haven't seen you prepare everything at home, have the milk ready, you know, do everything you need to do to make sure you can do this gig, because the similar thing happened to me. I did my first gig that we did the when he was seven weeks old. And same thing someone said to me, oh, where's your baby? And I was just like, if you knew what I have, I've moved heaven and earth to make this day possible. So I was playing up at Coonawarra, which is about an hour away. And I was there for about five hours. So I was away from him for a while. thought you've got no idea. I That's my that is my pet peeve. And people ask it in a nice way. And they ask it with the most like sincerity and they go, oh, where's the baby? And that's one question that I just can't stand because it just kind of grates on me because it makes you feel like, oh, I should be looking after, should I be looking after the baby, we're like, you know, it's like the babies with his dad, he's fine. You've done so much to be able to, you know, go into a gig now isn't just like you know, or you've done your practice on the days before you just you know, get your tribe and walk out the door. Going to a gig now means scheduling time in for practice every day leading up to it to make sure that you're on top of it, which I reckon I'm more on top of my gigs now because I have to schedule things I have to make that time doing all the pumping, getting the bottles ready, getting the food ready, making sure the babysitters sorted, making sure everyone knows where everything is, you know, what's the bedtime routine? You know, have I fed the kid now? Should I feed him right before I go? It's such a different thing now. And, and for people to be questioning that and be like, oh, where's the baby? It's something that really great for me. Maybe I should make another infographic about not asking that question. I think I just I'm very passionate about you know, I am you know, Loki quite a feminist. And one of the things that really bugs me is, you know, when I think about would people ask a dad about that? Would they say do you know, is their dad guilt? Or, you know, Dad comes into a gig gig or goes to work and someone says, oh, where's your baby? That doesn't happen, you know? Or someone says, Oh, you're back getting already Wow, that's amazing, like, hold on you. That just doesn't happen. And so you know, the mom guilt thing. I think dad should be feeling it just as much and I'm lucky enough that my partner feels a lot of dad guilt. He comes home, you know, when he goes out to work and he calls me and he says, Can you send me a photo? I miss him? You know? And I think that the the feeling that it should be all on mums to be there and to be looking after everything. It's not fair. It's not equitable. Having said that, you know, we do of course, we miss our kids. Like, I miss Sam so much when I go out to a gig, I do miss him and I look at photos and I show everyone photos. You know, I miss him and I go, Oh, but no part of me ever feels like oh, I should be at home. It's not fair to him, because it wouldn't be fair to him if I was at home all the time, and I was a sad person because of it. And so that's why I just think you've got to look at the balance of things. Yeah, he's gonna miss me for a few hours, but I'm going to be a better mom because of it. And I really, truly believe that making, like doing the work that we do anything that makes you feel happy and passionate, you know, that makes you a better person and a better parent. And so you can't feel guilty for taking that time. And I really do I look at music completely differently. Now, you know, when I go out to do my gigs, it's not like, we're gonna go do a gig. Now it's like, this is my time, this is my time to do something that makes me feel really good, and nourishes my soul. And that's going to make me feel better about being at home. So, I don't know, if I answered the question at all, but my take on mom guilt, you know, don't feel it just don't cuz we're allowed to go out and do these things to our souls to, it's so important. I think moms often get put in until a man box. And people go, you should be looking after your kid, you know, you shouldn't be doing things for yourself. And that's that, that kind of thrown on my heart, like, you know, we completely surrender were expected to completely surrender everything about ourselves to be apparent. But it's just not feasible in the long run, if you want to be a happy and whole person. I am a trumpet player. And I'm passionate about that. I'm a music teacher. And I'm very passionate about that, too. And I'm a mom, and I'm very passionate about that. And I can still be all of those three things. And they don't have to, I mean, they're going to impact each other. Of course they are, but they don't have to cancel each other out. You can't only be one of those. I mean, you don't have to just be one of those things. And, you know, I think keeping my identity has, like I said earlier, it's kept me sane, it's it kept me feeling like parenting is the most amazing thing on earth. And it truly is. Because I've been able to keep that part of myself and share with Sam to like, he's coming out to a bunch of gigs. He's got his little headphones on. I think the first thing the first gig he came out to potentially was New Year's Eve, and myself and Carlo were playing together. So my mom and my stepdad came along and held sat there, and he watched us play. And he of course, would have had no idea was going on because he was only like eight weeks old. But playing for Sam felt amazing. It just felt like a completely different experience to be able to share my craft with him, you know. And so I want that I want him to grow up knowing that that's a part of me, and also having that be a part of him and want him to be proud of me to I want him to see me on stage and see his dad on stage and go, Hey, that's, that's my mom. That's my dad, how cool is that? I just really want him to think I'm cool. That's what? Well, my musicians as well. So you know, I always saw them on stage. And it was just, I was so proud. I thought they were the coolest people ever. I was like, Oh my gosh, look at that singing and dancing around. It's so cool. And, you know, I just think it's such an amazing thing for kids to grow up seeing their parents, you know, pursuing their like, the things that make them happy and doing it publicly as well as even better. Did it surprise you? You know, there's been so much change in terms of how breastfeeding has been accepted over the years. It's taken, you know, it's taken a while. But breastfeeding is commonly accepted pretty much everywhere now. Even if it might annoy someone. But Did it surprise you then that the pumping of the breast milk was just no one had any idea about it? It? It surprised me because I didn't know anything about it. Yeah. So I had Sam and I like I knew about breast pumps. And I knew that you you could pump milk so that you can feed them from a bottle. That's all I knew. I didn't know about maintaining supply I didn't know about you know the supply and demand part of breastfeeding. I just thought the milk was always there and you just get it out when you want it kind of thing. And so finding out that this would be part of you know, leaving the house and leaving Sam alone was that I'd have to be doing this pumping. It was actually quite upsetting. Because you know, when I started the pump, I was like wow, this is pretty intense. It takes a lot of effort to Get everything on. And then you know, when I first started pumping, nothing was coming out. And so I really had to work on relaxing and you know, looking at pictures of Sam to try and you know, get the letdown happening. And then getting out and talking to people and finding out then that they knew nothing about it too, I actually wasn't surprised that they knew nothing, because I knew nothing about it. I'd never seen somebody pump before. I'd never talked to people about pumping before. So me being the loudmouth. I am, I went out and started telling everyone all about it, I get to a gig and be like, right, guys, I need to pump it this time. I need to pump it this time. Here's why I need to do it. You want to see the equipment? Look, here's some of my milk. Isn't this amazing? Like, how cool was the human body? And you know, a lot of people just said, Wow, I had no idea. But it didn't surprise me because neither did I. It's not really talked about everyone knows about breastfeeding. But not everyone knows about the pumping side of it. You know, or Yeah, it's, it's kind of it almost feels like it's a bit taboo. It's in the background, it's things that people don't see. And, you know, I've got a great friend of mine who had to exclusively pump for six months. And she said, by the end, she'd just walk around wearing a pumpkin no matter who was around because you just have to when you when you're exclusively pumping every three hours, it just takes up so much of your time and so much of your life. So it'd be great for that to become a little bit more visible. And that was part of you know, me getting this out there was trying to help people make it feel more normal. Hmm. Yeah, that's great. When you did find out about the effort that was involved, did you ever have a moment where you just thought, Oh, it's just it's too much. I just did you ever have that moment where you thought now I can't do it. Like, it would have only been fleeting moments, I think, once I was pumping at and no human being to this venue in Melbourne, the night cat, it's known as one of like, the dingy highest venues, but also super fun. But you know, those are the nightcap toilets. So the way I used to go as a 17 year old when I was too drunk to like, you know, open a door and be like, you know, and I was pumping in there and sitting on the thing and just going, Oh, I can't touch anything. And I was like, this sucks. This sucks. Like, should I just do formula, but I really, I really just wanted to, and it was almost like a challenge within myself. I just wanted to see how long I could exclusively feed for and, you know, I just felt I feel so privileged that I was able to breastfeed, and not everyone can, you know, for medical reasons for you know, mental reasons, mental health reasons, there are so many people that just can't do it. And I you know, it came so easy to me, I was like, I'm not, I'm not going to take this for granted. It's amazing that I can give my kid the very best nutrition in the whole world. For him. There's nothing better than breast milk. I'm gonna make the most of this. And so I you know, I had my moments of wanting to give up, but they were fleeting. And you know, I kept going with it. And I'm still going with it now I still periods about, Gosh, about six times a day at 10 months old, which is a lot. But you know, we just do it. And it's, I've not ever been, you know, some people. You know, they say I love breastfeeding so much like it's a really beautiful bond between me and my baby. I'm not one of those people. I don't know why I didn't get that gene that was like, Oh, this is so beautiful and loving. I do it because it's easy and because it nourishes him and you know there are bits of it that I like it's just a lot easier mostly. You know, but we've we've kept going and I'm really glad that I did. Like you don't yeah. There's a Fire Island article on the motherlode of he's sitting on your lap, got the trumpet and it's absolutely beautiful. Well, my partner's in that photo as well. He was he was filling in with full so the two of us were at rehearsal. We were like What are we going to do we take the kid with us we put on his little headphones and he came into rehearsal. It was actually it was a pretty special moment for him to be you know, for my my whole family to be there with my full family. It was it was really lovely. And that's that photo is actually you know, the first one on social media of him is we haven't put any photos on but that just felt so special. We need it to share it. It is lovely to be able to continue that family tradition like your parents involved in their you and involving your son I think that's just beautiful, musics awesome. Always been such a such a positive thing in my world in every way possible that it just it feels like something that I want him to experience as well not necessarily to become a, you know, not to become a professional musician, but just to be able to have all of those amazing social skills that come from working in a team, you know, the the cognitive skills that come from learning music, and just the joy that comes from making music. I mean, if if you can, if you can do it, why wouldn't you? Why would you share that with your family around the piano when we were kids and dad would be playing, playing songs to us. And we just thought it was the most amazing thing ever. And I looked back at that, and I go, I'm so glad that we were introduced to music at such a young age and given the option and it was always an option, but we were given the option to pursue it in whatever way we wanted to. And we all ended up as brass players doing music degrees. Sorry, dad, he wanted doctors and lawyers. So he started the the trend of the brass in your family. Then my oldest sister started on the trombone. And then I did the trumpet. I'm the middle one. And then the younger one started on the corner as well. But I actually when I was in about year seven, I got the album's which is like the trumpet book. It's the book, you know. And I sat down and tried to play some of it with my poor little sister who was only in grade four at the time going, oh my god, I can't play there's nothing you just gotta you just play it you just do it like that. I wasn't a very good teacher then clearly. And the next day she put down a trumpet never picked it up again and picked up the trombone instead. I'm not playing the trumpet anymore, but it made me feel bad about it. Find matches a trombone player. Scottish philosopher have a lot of guilt about that. You talked about mom guilt. I've got sister guilt. Very good at the trombone now though, so it's okay. Maybe it was meant to be maybe that was her path in life you just had to guide her slightly she doesn't usually follow in my footsteps so you had to try other ones. Also want to ask you you said before about you, your muse Imams? Did you find because you were friends before you had children? Did you find them? Did you find that that there was little comparison with your muse? Oh mums group. Absolutely like that the museum moms group is super supportive. Everyone, you know, it's very real, we write about all of our challenges, you know, we write about all the really bad things, and we tell each other about the good things too. And everybody is like, there's no comparison, there's no, you know, oh, my, my child seems better than yours. Otherwise, I'd be losing pretty bad. I'm very, very high, you like it, you're right, like being already being friends. I mean, some of the a couple of the girls in the group, you know, I didn't know so well beforehand. And now we're also close, we, you know, text pretty much daily and just build each other up and just make each other feel like everything's okay. And everything's going to be okay. And I'm really lucky. Absolutely. My local parents group, there's a couple of girls in there who have become, you know, some of my closest friends, you know, and we, we really look after each other as well, you know, or living on the same street and, you know, supporting each other in that way too. So I think you can get lucky with the people you end up with, you can get unlucky, it just really depends. And I've had absolutely lucked out in finding, I even have a third mother's group. Another one. Everyone's just really amazing and supportive, and no one ever makes me feel like what my child is doing isn't okay. And I think that's such an important part of being, I think, especially among, you know, because we tend to be the ones kind of, you know, and this is generalizing, and it's not in every situation depends on your circumstances and the set of parents and whatnot. But we do tend to be the ones who kind of know where the milestones are meant to be. And we're the ones waking up generally every night if we're breastfeeding all through the night to feed the baby. So we tend to be the ones that end up getting sucked into those comparisons and those kind of competitions. And I think just being really mindful of making other people a never feel bad about what their child can or can't do. That be not, you know, not saying my child can do this to try and you know, show off but to be like, Hey, let's all rejoice in this together, my child can do this what new, you know, what is your child during this week that's really amazing and really special. Because I think it can turn into a bit of a competition. And that's, that makes me sad. But I'm so grateful that I ended up with all people around me who are just beautiful, and supportive and amazing, and I love them all so much. Life after baby really has made me kind of consider how much free time I had beforehand, even though I was working, like I was doing like 70 hour weeks, and still getting to the gym three or four times a week and still had free time outside of that. And now it's kind of like, probably the biggest surprise has been just how time consuming a child is, you know, I kind of thought you put them down for a nap. And then they'd sleep for a couple of hours and you get stuff done. And then you come back to them. And my child, beautiful Sam, he is the most incredible child on the world does not like sleep, I think he's allergic to sleep. So you know, his naps are sometimes only 15 minutes. You know, if we get really lucky, it's an hour, it really, really lucky. I think once or twice, he's done an hour and a half on his own. And I think, you know, the big thing as a musician has had to be prioritizing and scheduling. So sometimes now I have to practice the trumpet with a mute in at 11:30pm. Because that's the only time I get to do it. And I think, you know, everyone said to me beforehand, like you, you you weren't even know what you used to do with all your free time. And I was like, Dude, I'm pretty busy. Like, I know what it feels like to not have free time. Now after having a kid it's like, I know what it feels like to never have a moment to yourself. Because literally now any. And I say literally in the actual way it was meant to be used. If I have free time I'm off into the studio to practice. If he actually goes down for a nap, it's practice time. And so now I pretty much don't ever have any time to myself without the horn on my face. And that's been that's been a bit of a shock to me. I think, you know, I would I would have loved to know that beforehand that it really is that intense. And I'm sure it will get easier as we go along. And as he gets older, you know that then if we add another one to the mix, we go through the whole thing again, and then it's even more chaotic, I'm sure. But yeah, I think that's probably been one of the most surprising things as a as an artist and a mum, kind of just how much I need to use any little scrap of free time to make sure that I can still maintain my craft. Yeah, when I used to sit down and do half an hour of practice, I reckon probably 20 minutes of that was like looking on Facebook or, you know, rearranging my books or, you know, playing with a little thing on the trumpet. Now, if I sit down to practice for half an hour, I am practicing hard for half an hour, because I know that there's not going to be another half hour or if there is that I've got to use that half hour really well, you know. So it really does change the way you kind of focus and knuckle down things because there's just no, there's no room for faffing. You just can't. Alright, yeah, laughing is faffing is canceled the moment that child comes out of you. Sometimes my sisters come over to look after Sam just so I can go and practice if I'm having a particularly hard day they live close, which is lucky. But I'll just be like, Hey, guys, I haven't been able to get anything done today. And they will just come over, they'll sit with them. You know, for an hour or two, I'll get some washing done, I'll jump in the studio or have a shower or whatever it is and, and having that support has made it all possible. You know, you just need people you need, you know, you need a village to make it all work. I'm so lucky that I have an amazing village around me. You know, and I know it would be harder for people that don't and I know of people who don't have family here and it's bloody hard. And I just I don't know how they do it. You know, single parents, I am absolutely in awe of anybody who raises a child alone. I can't even fathom how hard that would be. You know, so I'm very privileged to be able to make it work. And I feel I feel very lucky for that. So there's some really exciting stuff coming up with falls. Hopefully we'll be doing a little mini east coast to the start of October may or may not happen. But then also we've got a gig in Maine in in mid October and another one in Brunswick, I think in November. So that will be very fun. Jazz lab orchestra is about to do recording for a new album, and they play at the jazz lab every month as well. COVID permitting. We've lost our first yard originally our last few unfortunately. But yeah, that's the main things coming up. They get on board. Madison, I've thoroughly enjoyed chatting with you. It has been so much fun. You've given me lots of laughs today. All the best with your full ski and well done again for opening people's eyes to the challenges of pumping and returning to gigs. So yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Alison. It's been an absolute pleasure to be on the show. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet

Sally Rippin Australia's highest selling female author + illustrator S2 Ep71 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Sally Rippin is a best-selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her 3 children. Sally is Australia’s highest-selling female author and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults and adults. Her widely popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than ten million copies in eighteen countries. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in South-East Asia. As a young adult she studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai and Hangzhou, which inspired her first novel Chenxi and the Foreigner. which she started writing when she was 19. Sally loves to write stories with heart and includes characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally has written and illustrated books for babies, children, young adults and now adults. Sally's books for children include the popular Billie B Brown and Hey Jack! series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released, called Wild Things, it is about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don’t. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school; a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time. She couldn’t have been more wrong. Her son’s dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers, and labelled as ‘difficult’ by an education system that couldn’t easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was – almost – too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September Sally released a picture book, co-written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hull, called Come Over To My House. Inside, readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as Deaf or disabled. The first of its kind, this picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and home. Resources for parents Find Sally website Podcast website / instagram Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. My guest this week is Sally rippin. Sally is a best selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her three children. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in Southeast Asia. As a young adult. She studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai. And this inspired her first novel Chen Zhi and the foreigner, which she started writing when she was just 19. Sally is Australia's highest selling female author, and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults, and now adults. Her wildly popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than 10 million copies in 18 countries. Sally loves to write stories with heart, and characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally's books for children include the popular Billy B Brown, and hijack series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released called wild things. It's about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school, a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time, but she couldn't have been more wrong. Her son's dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers and labeled as difficult by an education system that couldn't easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was almost too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September, Sally released a picture book co written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hall called come over to my house. Inside readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as deaf or disabled. The first of its kind. This picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and our home. The music you'll hear on today's podcast is from my ambient music, New Age trio called LM joy and that comprise comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. Thank you again for listening. And I hope you enjoyed today's chat with Sally. Welcome to the podcast. Sally. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome you and to meet you today. It's really exciting to be here. Thanks, Alison. You're a best selling author. That's pretty exciting. And you've been writing for 25 years you've written 100 books. That's quite prolific, isn't it? Like? I mean, my max four books a year give or take? Yeah, well, look, there have been some really busy periods. But also, I guess what I probably want to say and I think a lot of artists out there would relate to this is that I've been published for 25 years, but I've been writing since I was little Yeah, I was a kid that was always in a corner reading books drawing, making my own books. So yeah, so I think I think I'm sure you imagine that that's something that a lot of us would say and I suppose it's the same for you too, is that it still feels a little bit surreal for me, and I don't think of myself as a six successful author or a best selling author because really, all I'm doing is exactly what I did when I was a little kid and I get paid for it and I can do it all day every day. So it doesn't Feel like a job. It just kind of feels like this incredible dream come true. Yeah, that is awesome, isn't it to be able to just literally live out your dream every day? And yeah, cuz that's something I do talk to my guests about, like, how did it start? Where did it come from? Were you influenced as a child growing up? Did you have people around you that were really heavily into pork? Yeah, definitely. So we moved around a lot as kids, because of my dad's job we moved about every two years. And we mainly grew up in Southeast Asia a little bit of time in England as well. But the most important aspect of that is that we would spend a lot of time in hotel rooms on airplanes in airports. And this was long before the internet, or iPads or anything like that. So my mom would have to give us books to read. And when we had run out of books, because they're heavy to carry around, she would just give us pencils and paper, and we'd make our own books. And I really credit that along with a couple of fantastic English teachers and art teachers as being the support that gave me the confidence to think that it was something more than just something I would do at my craft table. But something that I could protect, potentially do that other people would want to look at as well. So I think I was really, really lucky that I had adults around me that believed in me supported in me, teachers that would read my stories out in class or at teachers that would really push me to go further. So yeah, I think that was a huge part of of me just having the confidence to go ahead. Having said that, my dad wasn't so supportive of me turning out to be an artist. For him. That was a little bit like saying, I was dropping out. Because I was good at school. And so and he he went to a very, not a very wealthy school in Adelaide, you're in South Australia, I just saw and he was the only kid in his year level to go on to university was quite a rough school he went to, and he went on to be a civil engineer. So he worked really hard to put his daughters to a private school. And when I told him I was going to be an artist, he was like, he just couldn't believe it. It was like you're going to waste that private school education unbecoming. Inadequate him that was like saying I was just dropping out. But he's so proud of me now, you know, and I think, partly, it was encouraging courage meant of my mum that supported me. But I also think there was part of the grist to the mill. That was important coming from my dad, too, because I think I wanted to prove something to him to myself that, no, it wasn't just this kind of alternative way of saying that I didn't want to go and get a job. It was actually odd is that people that work hard, you know, they're dedicated to what they do. And, you know, and potentially they can make a living from it. So in some ways, maybe if I'd only had support, and no one kind of with some nobody to push up against. Maybe I wouldn't have driven myself so hard. Yeah, it's interesting. Isn't it like that balance between the two? It's almost like the devil's advocate sort of spear you on saying, oh, you can't do this. And you're like, hang on a sec. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I'm so stubborn, too. So if you tell me, this makes me want to do more? That's funny. minute talking about your art teachers and your school teachers, I've been reading your book, wild things, thank you for sending me the copy too, because I have really resonated and I will talk a bit more about that in the future, but in the future of his podcasts in a moment. But yeah, when you say you teach it, it was like she was with a capital A, it was like a proper subject, not something just to sort of bridge between, you know, science or maths or, you know, the serious subjects and putting them in air quotes. And that's massive, isn't it to have that support of someone? We can take it seriously, like you said, you can make a career out of it. It does take hard work like anything, but you know, to have that option, you know, presented to you in in your sort of formative years when you're so influenced by things. Absolutely. And I was very influenced by her too. When I look back on it. I think she was probably only quite young at the time. Well, there are when you're a teenager, anyone who's old. I think it was her first teaching year. And she was very alternative. She was quite tall and thin, and she was always dressed all in black. She was you know, quite goth looking. And she was a bit smelly and unapproachable. And so any of the students that did kind of just turn up to art class and treat it like it was just such a slack off period. She really treated them with a lot of disdain, but because she could see I was really into it. She really took me under her wing and she would take me to exhibitions of contemporary artists on weekends. Use me to Hockney. She took me in a hot me exhibition. Some other weird Melbourne artists with weird kind of colourful stuff with dead my stuck on the fact that she was so excited and so inspired by that, and also that she saw something in me as well, you know, she could see that, that that mattered to me. And so even though I was in this very conservative mainstream girl school, I think she just liked the fact that there was that little ounce of rebel that was just the, the grain of all good artists. Just pushing up against things just Yeah. When you were talking about your teacher there reminded me of I had two teachers, their husband and wife, and they were just the most laid back hippie people you'd ever made. And some of the most interesting music I ever listened to. Was in Mr. Vans class used to put on like, America, I think they were called like that. The Horse With No brain or whatever that we'd saw. And my son actually is just on his Spotify playlist, it popped up and I'm just like, oh, the memories. Back from the song. It was just, it was bizarre. But yeah, I love the horses no name. That's what it is. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. Yeah. You knew what I meant, though. So that was good lace. Kind of uniform better, actually. Me All right. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think, because there's part of going through adolescence that you want to separate from your parents. And so if you're lucky enough that you do have other adults around you, that are doing interesting things. They can be extraordinary role models, and they can really set you on to quite alternative paths to the ones that your parents had laid out for you. And so they're really vital having good role models around you at that age. That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Your first book was a book that was actually written for young readers a bit of a mishmash in the way I built my career. Because I guess, because I hadn't grown up around artists, that wasn't something that I had considered was going to be the direction I'd go down. And so I read a lot, I drew a lot, I had great teachers, but I didn't actually know any grown up artists. And so I've just always written and drawn for myself, but really, I guess I'd always kind of thought that that was just something that was my own passion, my own drive, but I went to live in China for a few years. So my dad got a job there. And I went to study over there while he was living there, studying traditional Chinese painting. And at the same time, I was writing lots of letters home to friends to really try and explain what this extraordinary city of Shanghai was, like, at a time that had just come out of the Tiananmen Square riots, it was transitioning from very conservative, communist values to more progressive values. And I was in the art school. So all the arts students were part of all those, those demonstrations, and they were the ones that were really out there, you know, pleading for change, and wanting to open up the country much more to the west. And so I was writing all these letters home, and eventually, you know, there, I started to find to make them into short stories. So I'd always written stories, but I found that this was a way that I could take all the things that were happening, but also kind of almost elaborate on them and, and potentially put in some history and some characters. And so this is what just in a really weird way, eventually became my first young adult novel. And I was 19 when I started writing it, so I didn't really know what it was going to be either. But once again, I would say throughout my life, I've been blessed to come across incredible mentors. And so I, first of all, how did I get into that? That's right. I thought it was going to be a novel for adults. And I went to see I thought I'll penguin publishing I've heard of them. I know what I looked them up and where they were. And I managed I don't know how I managed to do it. This was a long time ago, to get an appointment with a publisher there who's a wonderful woman who's now become a close friend called Erica Wagner. And she had a look at what I was writing. She said, I think this is young adult Did you know I don't think this is adult and first, I was bit insulted at all what you're telling me, I'm a teenager, I was like I was 22 or something. But then she gave me three books. She gave me a book called Sleeping Dogs by Sonya Hart that she gave me looking for Alibrandi by Melina Marchetta. And she gave me peeling the onion by Wendy Orr. And I took those books, and I devoured them. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, this is young adult literature. I mean, I'm interested. And I realized how much it was pushing up against boundaries, and how much it really was exploring that really tumultuous time of adolescence. And it wasn't the teenage literature that I grown up reading, which was all about periods and boyfriends and pimples, that was really, really pushing the boundaries. So I was working on that. At the same time, I was still drawing and painting. And the first book I actually did manage to get published was a picture book. But in the background, I was working on that young adult novel. So even though that wasn't the first thing I had published, I was certainly that was the first thing I was writing. So everything kind of arrived in, in succession after that. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's an awesome story. And I'm sorry, I'm, I haven't read that book. I'm not actually, I'm not a massive reader. I just I don't know, I have, I find it difficult to sit for long periods of time and read. And I know, that's really bad to say, but I do make an effort when I, you know, really want to read something. That yeah, it's like, you've got the two aspects going together, like the children are becoming, you know, young adults, they're growing up, and then you've got that change of China at that time. So that's a really sort of awesome combination. Really, did you sort of realize that at the time, you're really onto something with that, I think I had a gut feeling that I was because my I had a couple of best friends at the time. One of them was a Chinese student, a man called Gen Z. And he was very politically minded. And he also took me into parts of China that I may not have been able to access on my own as a white Westerner. And then the other person who was a big influence on me, ended up becoming my boyfriend, and then eventually the father to my two older kids. And he was also very kind of rebellious and curious and seeking adventures. So I had those two really great role models to really push me outside of my comfort zone. But also, I was really able to see what it was like to be young Chinese person, particularly young adults growing up in China, as well as seeing the difference to how we were treated as expatriates, and the privileges and doors that were open to us. So I don't think I could have written that book, had I not had some really close Chinese friends and being part of the student body, had I only just mixed in the expatriate circles, I think it would have been very superficial. And so I was actually able to feel what the changes were happening in China from the perspective of other young people. And the danger that a lot of them were under even sometimes by just being friends with Westerners at the time was dangerous for them. So So those things I was aware of, and those things I tried to put into the novel, probably in a fairly naive way. But extraordinarily, several years later, I met another incredible mentor, the publisher text, Penny Houston, and she had read that book, and it had gone out of print. And she said, look, I think this was fantastic novel. And it's such a shame, it's gone out of print, why don't we give it another go. And so with her support, I did write another version of that book and went a little bit deeper. Now I was a bit older, a little bit more politically savvy, I was able to really understand what the situation had been like, with some perspective in the way that might have been. So I had the combination of both being submerged in it, but then being able to write it with a bit of perspective to later on. So yeah, I'm still really proud of that. You know, it's, it was you know, when I consider that I started writing it at 90. I look at that nothing. Yeah, well, you did that. Amazing. I did a residency in China, at a very prestigious International School. And the Australian librarian there just surreptitiously made sure that book was available on shelves for young students can change lives. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing in a country like that, where things are so heavily controlled, and, and, yeah, to be able to sneak something like that under the radar view. Awesome. Amazing. Do you keep up with what's going on in China now? Like having been, you know, immersed in it? Do you sort of keep an eye on how things are tracking over there? Do you still have friends over there? Yeah, less. So. For a couple of reasons. One, my dad lived there up until recently, so I was Background, visiting him quite a lot. And because all of the people he worked with were local Chinese, it was very easy to get an internal perspective of what was going on in the world. But since he's moved back to Australia, plus he is married to this fabulous Italian lady who speaks fluent Chinese. And so she was very much part of the cultural. The cultural hub of Shanghai. In fact, she had a newsletter that was called Maria's choice, and it would tell you which exhibitions you should go to which films you should go to. And she'd actually worked down now on film sets with Chinese film crews, as well. So for example, resolutie film The Last Emperor, she worked on that one. So both of those were people, my dad and my stepmother were a great source of information. I mean, obviously, it's not the same as being a Chinese person growing up in China, but everybody they worked with was Chinese. So it felt like it was pretty authentic. But they've moved back, Reg. More recently, I'm still in touch with Gen Z, but he lives in Australia now. And most of my Chinese friends, it's very hard to communicate with because I can speak Mandarin, but I can't read and write it. So unless we're phone calls, you know, having phone calls, which we don't really do more. It's really hard to keep track of where they all are, and where they're at what they're up to. But a couple of them I've kept in touch with. Yeah, that's interesting. It's like it's the country that's always fascinated me. And I had a friend that she was a school teacher here, and she went over for 12 months, doing like teaching in a what do you call them? An international school? Yeah. And she, she loved it. But it's the sort of place I think I'd get quite daunted by it. Like, I don't know, it feels a bit. Like, if you did the wrong thing, you'd feel like you're gonna get in big trouble or something, you know, like it feels. Maybe that's just for me, because I've never been, yeah, well, that that's the thing with the often those great experiences that you can have, like your friend did is that when you are employed there, and you're an expatriate, you do get to live and integrate within the country to an extent, but you're also very protected by your expatriate passport. And I don't think Chinese or I'm happy to be quoted, said, I'm wrong on this, but I don't think Chinese people will have anybody who was born outside the country ever recognized as a Chinese citizen, I think, potentially, maybe you're from Taiwan or Hong Kong, then that, obviously. But everybody else kind of has this very privileged surface existence. And we even knew that it students that, you know, when we're going out to nightclubs, or places like that, often, our Chinese friends wouldn't be allowed in these would be local nightclubs. And we were and so it's a kind of an fact, to my dad's credit. That's why he ended up moving us out of Asia, because we were I was doing High School in Hong Kong. And he didn't want us to live our whole lives, kind of having this sense of entitlement. I think just knowing that just because of the color of our skin that we've had become a bit untouchable. And then the rules didn't apply to us that they did for the local people that we, you know, we grow up often with mates. And he didn't want us to think that that was the world's normality. So he wanted us to have a much simpler lifestyle, you know, mind you, he still put us into a private school in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne. But he didn't want us to think that, that we had this assumption that everybody lived this way. And then suddenly, as expatriates, most people do live a very wealthy protected bubble like life. Yeah, you know, and, and often, the darker sides of China are even withheld from locals as well, you know, often it's really hard even for locals to unless they make really good local friends. You know, a lot of that is hidden from them. And so a lot of their people with disabilities aren't allowed on the streets or a lot of crime is shut down very quickly to have very tough measures on crime. So if anything, you're safer there than you are in Australia, because they don't you know, Chinese are very proud and they want the country to appear a certain way to outsiders eyes. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I sort of didn't think we only want to ask you lots of other things, but I'm not going to become very politically, the Chinese if you get quite political so we'll just say thank you for sharing your thoughts. Sorry, your book wild things, which is awesome, by the way. And again, thank you for sending it to me. It's called Wild Things, how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. And like I said earlier, I really resonated with this because my son, he's got some learning issues he hasn't been diagnosed with for ADHD, but the way they described him and it was interesting in your book, you've got to pick like a little thing about this describing the different types of ADHD. He's got the inattentive, distractibility type. So as I was reading this, so many times, I just went, Oh, my God, that's, that's how I felt, or that's what I should have done, or, you know, all this sort of stuff. So, rather than me keep blabbing on, can you share, in your own words, the inspiration behind your book? Yeah, thank you. It's lovely to hear how you've resonated with it. And that is partly why I wrote this book. So this is a scary thing for me to do. I've written for children for many, many years. Who am I to think I can write a book for grownups. But I, my son was struggling. And somehow, I let myself believe it would all kind of work itself out over time. So it was quite clear from regret about grade two, that he was struggling to acquire the reading skills that his two older brothers had easily been able to do. He did have a wonderful teacher in prep, who alerted me to the fact she thought he might have some reading issues. But I completely dismissed her I just thought, oh, you know, he's in prep, you know, they should just be playing with sand and water, what's the what's the issue here. And so I let it go for too long. And I kept thinking, Well, maybe he just won't be a reader. And so I'll write books that he wants to read. And so I wrote the Billy v. Brown series and tested them out on him. And then I wrote the hit page X series. And I figured, you know, they'll always be something that will engage him, I don't need to worry too much about reading, you know, my two older boys love reading, I love reading, maybe he just won't be a reader. What I hadn't taken to an account is how much reading affects everything. So if you can't read, there's very little in school that you can engage with, and you lose the capacity to express yourself to articulate your thoughts. And, of course, your self esteem becomes completely crushed. So within primary school, he managed to get by because he had lovely teachers who could see the good parts of him and make him feel okay about himself. But of course, once he got to high school, the wheels fell off. And it was really, really hard to get him the support he needed we'd up partly because somehow the school didn't want to believe that, that this was going to be an issue for him, that he'd got all the way to the end of year seven before I realized he wasn't even having working. So now we're in year eight, and his self esteem is worse. And so now, of course, his behavior is impacted. And so he's becoming a kid that has to get attention somehow. So He does it by by playing up or by doing dumb things to bond with peers. And so now he's becoming a kid, that's a problem in the class. So we're now getting up to year nine, and he has now completely disengaged from school, and also feeling like teachers and on his side. So by now I'm in an absolute panic, because I spend my life, you know, traveling around the world, talking to kids, and making them feel good about themselves and talking to parents about how we acquire reading, and how to get your reluctant reader reading. And I thought, I've obviously missed something here. You know, there's, there's a reason why my son has got this far. And he's going downhill fast. So I thought, I've got to research this. And so I just started asking people tell me how you teach your child to read, tell me what's going on for your child, I started tapping into support groups. And all of a sudden, I found this whole lot of information out there. And I couldn't understand how I hadn't been able to access it before. It's all out there. But it's really hard to find. And I was talking to lots of parents like yourself, who was who was saying, you know, my child struggling in school, or my child hasn't been able to pick up reading skills or, or whatever, and I. So once I tapped into these support groups, one of them suggested that I also had them assessed for ADHD, which is a very common thing among their children. And I really just took him to the doctor just to you know, write that one off, I thought, oh, no, he's not ADHD because somehow people have got in their mind that it's just those noisy ratty little kids that paid well wasn't like that. He was a daydreamer. Who was swayed he was, you know, wanting to please. And so sure enough, he was diagnosed with ADHD and so I just thought, how is this All coming to me now. And now he's 15, he's disengaged, he feels terrible about himself. And he's talking about dropping out of school. So then I went around to all my friends. And I said, Did you know this? So you've got to know this or, and I met more and more people like you that were saying, you know, wanting to share their stories, too. So I thought, I've got to put all this into one place. Not let everybody else I know, go through all the struggles that my son and I had to. And so I thought I'd go to my publisher, and I'll talk to her about this idea. I really didn't think that she'd take it on. And she said, Yep, we'll do it. But it took me two years to find the contract. Because I wasn't convinced I could do it. And the biggest part of it was just getting over that self doubt that I think a lot of us, do you know that? You know, who am I to think I can do this? You know, I'm not an expert in the field. So I did a huge amount of research, read some really dense books on neuroscience and a lot of books on how we acquire reading skills, or what happens in our brains. Talk to a whole lot of experts. The amazing thing about writing a nonfiction book is you can call up anyone, I'm writing a book, can I interview, you get my diarrhea. I spoke to the most amazing people, I spoke to this extraordinary woman over in the US who had actually changed, who had actually changed the schooling system that her child was a part of by just getting a whole lot of other parents on board. So when you tap into these support groups, they're extraordinarily powerful, and they're emotionally charged. So there were so many people wanting to support me in writing this book, that the days when I thought I can't do this, I've got to drop it. Let's just go back to writing for kids. I thought about those people. And I thought I can't let him down. All these people have already shared their stories, or these people have already given me their time and their expertise. I just have to keep pushing through. I did. And even when I handed the first draft to my publisher, I was sure she'd say are no actually look, you know, I'm not so sure about this. But she loved it. And the thing that she responded to the most strongly was the memoir elements of it. And she said, you know, all the scientific stuff is important. But the stuff that I really, that really sticks with me is all the personal stuff. So of course, that's where you feel the most vulnerable. And so I just kept expanding on those bits. And then in the very later drafts, running all of them passed my son to check that he was comfortable with all of them as well. And so interesting stuff came out of that as well. Because when I'd read something out that had happened five years ago, he was now older, unable to say actually, that wasn't my experience of it. So he was able to then share what had been like for him. So it became almost this beautiful combinate this beautiful moment where I was able to actually understand my son more by doing the research into this book. And this was all done during lockdown as well. So we spent a lot of time together. Had I not done the research for that book? I don't know where my son and I would be at now because we've become very disconnected. I had become really just full blown anxiety stressed out, not knowing what was going on what was normal, what wasn't. And now I've got this beautiful young man in my life who has this extraordinary unique brain. kooky? Yeah, is really beautiful, empathetic, and feeling good about himself, you know, after feeling so crushed by the system, I think, all that time working on the book and running lots of it past him. He feels good about himself. He knows that. Yeah, he's different. That's cool. Yeah. Does he does he kind of also think Can he see that by sharing like you sharing his, in your experience that it will help others? Is that something that he sort of takes in as well? Yeah, look, I think he's probably still a little bit young to really get the implications of that. He's only 19 and a half. So I have said to him again, and again, look, by us being vulnerable, and sharing our stories, potentially, we can, you know, empower people to be able to support their kids better. So they don't have to go through the same things as that. So he understands the intent, whether he really understands it in the way that I think, potentially only a really panicky struggling parent could really understand it. Who knows. You know, I think when you're a teenager, you're the center of your universe, you don't really know or under Oct nor should you know how your behavior is impacting the people around you. You know, I one of the things I recognized is how much I projected onto him, you know, how much I saw him as responsible for my anxieties rather than me responsible for my anxiety. And that was a huge sub. Most of the growth has come from me, letting go of who I thought my son was actually really working out who he is? Towards the end of the book, you've got a chapter called things I wish I'd done differently. But one of the points is, except your kid is different. So that's a pretty powerful thing. Like you said, you've got that shift, did you also find then accept yourself to in that you can only, like, he can't blame yourself, you can't beat yourself up. You can only do what you can do and accept that this is, it is what it is kind of thing without giving up, you know what I mean, but accepting that you can't go back and change things or that kind of thing. Was that something for you? as well? Yeah, I think that's a really nice way to put it. I, I know that I'm quite hard on myself about it. And particularly because it feels like and I might be wrong, that everybody else seems to know how to do this advocacy, parenting stuff. And in all these support groups, you know, they're really, it looks like they all know what they're doing. They're starting much younger than I did, people seem to be so much more aware and onto these things. And I felt like, somehow I just didn't, didn't get that memo. And so, I do feel like I could have done better. And I do feel like my son's trajectory would have been very different. Had I done differently. Having said that, I don't think I was very supported in the education system. You know, there were times when I felt like, the things that, you know, I was getting assessments done, and I would take them to the school, and they'd be filed away, and nothing would be done about it. Or I would say, you know, I'm, I have a concern here, and I kind of just be dismissed, you know, teachers and and, and it'll be fine. It'll sort itself out. And first of all, what I want to say is, that's absolutely not the fault of teachers is that one of the things that teachers who I've also interviewed for the book have told me is that, you know, they can't be expected to recognize and identify what kid needs, what you know, what issues they may have, whether it's they haven't had breakfast, or whether their parents are splitting up, they have a mental health condition or they neurodivergent you know, they're not counselors, and they're already under so much pressure. But I guess I had thought that that was something that the school will be able to handle and I recognize now that is, you know, as hard as it is, it really does fall back at least on the parent to be the advocate for the child and to educate themselves. So I definitely could have done a better job of that. But I also want to say that it's never too late and this is the thing I'm really proud of you know that there were times when my son was sneaking out at night and getting up to all kinds of stuff when and I was single parenting and making a lot of these decisions on my own. And there were a lot of times where I thought I can't do this I actually am not up for it I don't have the skills but there's no choice you no one else no one else is gonna do it for you. I just had to step up and I had to recognize that yeah, I stuffed up in the early days I hadn't done enough but today is the day we start work you know roll your sleeves up. Yeah, let's see. Skilled I read a lot I got a lot of support but I also did a couple of years of counseling costs as well and I learned to become a better listener so I learned to actually listen more talk less so I could get to know really what my son needed Yeah and he's so proud to put this young man in the world Yeah well that's that's so lovely yeah this with Alex he I feel the same in lots of different ways of your story that Alex he was always the kid that was like distracts others can't stay on task, you know, every single year level. Whenever we get his report or we talk to the teachers, it was the same thing and I kept saying to my husband, but what do we do? Like we've tried all these strategies about you know, different some teachers were really good at giving him more focus and they'd have put a special desk near them and, and sort of every now and then they you know, he'd be staring off into space and they bring him back and If others would just completely disown him, because they'd be like, well, that kid doesn't want to learn, I'm not gonna have anything to do with it, you know, and I can understand, you know, my backgrounds in early childhood education. I've been a kindy tech, not kindy teacher, but kindy worker and a childcare worker for nearly 10 years. So I get, I get what it's like to be in an educational setting, perhaps not exactly what schools like, but I, you know, I have a bit of an understanding, and I don't like same thing, I don't blame teachers, they've got enough on their plate as it is. And so I'm saying to my husband, we keep getting the same things, the same things like, what do we do about it? And everyone was like, oh, no, he'll grow out of it. Bla bla bla. And looking back. Now I know, there were signs they were all looking us in the face. But no one ever said, Have you ever thought about this? Have you ever thought about having intested ever yet, you know, and it was like you were just left to flounder because you don't know what you don't know. Being our first child, first child going into the world, you think people are going to tell you things, you know, people who know stuff should help us. But if they don't, then you have no idea what you're doing. And it wasn't till he got to high school. Same thing with your son, that literally the wheels fell off. And that's when we got the help we needed and we think started looking out for him. Because we actually have the tools and the people around us that could suggest things. So it's like, everyone just thought he just grow out of it. Like the little boy just playing around, he'll be fine. And he did to a degree, but also think he liked to hide it as well. I think he got really clever like your son, I think people that have have challenges get very, very, they're very intelligent people who are able to mask things and do things in other ways and teach themselves in other ways and learn other ways. Yeah, I think that's such a great way of explaining it. Because, you know, and this is why I think the more we talk about it, the better it is. And what we have in this generation that our parents didn't have, and certainly not before them, is social media. So now we have the capacity to hear marginalized voices tell their own story. So I don't know if you saw the Press Club talk that Mr. shiana gave me and that being a late diagnosed ADHD, I follow a lot of neurodivergent activists on social media, I tap into disability support groups. So we have that now we have the capacity to educate ourselves, and look at behavior as just being in information. Whereas before all these kids, like my dad also had a terrible time at school, he now suspects he's potentially neurodivergent himself, my younger sister as well, is really convinced she's dyslexic, they gave her glasses, you know, people didn't really know. So these people grow up feeling terrible about themselves, and some of them will go on and be resilient adults. Some of them don't, some of them end up in, you know, justice systems, because they can engage in school, they hang out with other people who have issues engaging with schools for a myriad of reasons. And they go down a really dark pathway, and often don't come out the other side of it, like our kids are lucky enough to do. And that's why if I have anything come out of having published this book, I hope that it starts conversations like already, you and I are starting to talk about the experiences that children have gone to through, I'm getting several messages a week from people I've never met, saying, This is my story, you know, or this is what's going on for my kid. And I think this is how we make change, we shine a light on all these things. So that then the burden is not placed on individuals, not just on the teacher or the parent. But everybody knows, ah, that kid, you know, maybe has this particular learning style. So let's find a support network for them in this way, or one of the most brilliant educators who was knighted for his ideas. So Ken Robinson has an extraordinary TED Talk where he talks about this young girl in the classroom. And this would have been back in the 70s, I imagine who couldn't sit still and everybody thought there was something wrong with her. And the psychologist left the room turns the music on and she got up and danced. And he said to the parents, there's nothing wrong with her. She's a dancer. And I think the next book I want to explore is also the idea of the artist as well, because the artist is most likely a person that hasn't connected with the mainstream that has found mainstream education, really difficult to engage them in certain ways. And so a whether it's unconventional people who are drawn to art, or whether we stay on conventional because we're able to express ourselves in a way that you can't do if you're a real estate agent. I'm interested to explore that further because I don't think that's a coincidence that that add us neurodivergent people, people who have strong feelings, you know, may struggle with their mental health. There's a lot of overlap with all of that there but unfortunately, schools are set up For one kind of learner, yeah. And that has to change. Oh, yeah. But this is a conversation, I could have 100 times over. It's just the frustration that you get, like just the simple thing. Like last night, my son, my little boy who's seven, he was looking through last year's school magazine. And he noticed some of the kids that were on a special page, and they were the ones that had won the academic awards for their year level. And he asked me what it meant, and I knew where it was going. And I said, these are the children that were judged in a certain way to be clever. And he said, Does that mean I'm not smart? And I knew where it was going. I could read it like a book. And I said, No, I said, it means that for the certain tests that they did, to work out who was clever in this certain way, these kids were the best at that. And I said, and there's other tests in the world. And it wasn't like a test it was more are other ways in the world, that you are determined to be, you know, clever in other ways. And he but he kept on with it. He said, Does that mean I won't win an award and I said, darling, you're reminding these already won some awards for being kind and you know, for, for perseverance and that kind of thing. And it just straightaway, just flashed in my head, like, this moment, I remember in kindergarten, when my my eldest son, who's, you know, Alex, who's got the issues, went to kindergarten for the first time. And this was before I was working in the Childcare and Education area. And I took him to kindy. And they all had to sit down. And they all had to sit with their legs exactly the same crossed in the front. And they all had to sit up and look at the front. And I just thought, it's like, I don't know what the rule is, I could, like I could see the light go out in him, if, you know, he couldn't even sit the way he wanted to, he couldn't express his himself in the way he wanted to just by being present. And I just, I walked away from them with tears in my eyes, because I thought you just squashing these little people right from the beginning. And now when I'm, like I'm working to kindy now, and there's some children that, you know, you can tell that they're feeling unsettled for the way they're being told to sit or whatever, and I'll, I'll bring him over. And I'll say, Just stretch your legs out a bit, you know, give them a bit of a shake, you know, and, you know, hiding sort of way, I hope none of my kindy cohorts are listening to this, you know, you should be able to sit however you want to see. So, you know, just breaks my heart. And that's the start of it, the very start of the conformity is expected for the next, you know, 1314 years of their lives. Yeah, just breaks my heart. And it's crashing, you know, your story breaks my heart too, because, you know, that's all of these brilliant minds, that are just kind of being pushed through this one system that was created 100 years ago to make factory workers, docile, factory factory workers. And so, you know, what I was stressed again, is there are extraordinary teachers working within the six, this repressive system. And if you're lucky enough, your kid will find a teacher that can just see something in you, you know, keep your self esteem intact. But you know, like, asking my book is this really the best we can do for our kids, you know, to spend 12, or 13 years of your most formative years of your life, in a system that makes you feel broken or wrong or a failure, you know, some kids will thrive, some kids will come through and feel great about themselves. But others will, you know, just be left completely broken. And so many adults, I interviewed about the book, there's a young, a beautiful man who I call Tony in the book that told me about his school experience. And it's so common, you know, just to feel completely, and some people never recover from that, just to feel completely crushed by that. So that's also where I feel like when we start to understand what my friend Eliza hull has taught me about the social model of disability, when we start to understand that it is actually a person's right, to be able to express themselves authentically, and to be able to set up their environments and they can thrive, then schools will be more accommodating towards kids that can't sit with their legs crossed, you know, and there are a lot of autistic activists, self advocating activists that are now really loudly and proudly saying, Do not shut us down, you know, we need to move we need to stim. This is how we emotionally regulate it, stop trying to make us not like us, we want to live full, authentic lives. And this is what we need to do all the kids coming through schools. And look, it's I don't know what that will look like. Because, of course, it's great to bombard ideas into the, you know, into the ether and not know how to put that into practice. Because, you know, like we were saying before, as a teacher working one teacher with 25 kids, each of them have their own specific needs. But a lot of the feedback teachers gave me is that even just lowering the student teacher ratio, just aides in the classroom, your more external things to be able to self regulate. So one credible school that I talked to has a massive what they call the shed. And it's a big workshop space and kids with difficulty in staying within the classroom neurodivergent kids or kids with learning difficulties have factored in spaces during the week where they can go and do stuff in the shed where volunteers come in, they did some cooking would work in a basket weaving whatever. And there's no stigma attached to spending time in the shed, because it's a cool place to be, you can go to the shed as well. So it's so tricky, because yes, sometimes it does require taking these kids out of the classroom and finding something they're good at. And all I remember myself, the kids that got taken out of the class, you know that there's something different about them. And there's stigma attached to that my son hated that, if that meant that he was stupid. So there's, there's got to be more creative ways of doing it. So that we can offer different ways of making our kids feel good about themselves. And that's where parents are really important to, to just to see like you're doing to see that it's a big picture. And all the successful adults I interviewed who neurodivergent said the one thing that got them through was finding something they were good at. And maybe that's art, maybe that sport for one guy was sailing, you know, Torian champion sailing, yeah, doesn't matter what it is, you've got to you got to have something that's yours that you didn't want. Alex is playing the bagpipes. He's like, Oh, my God, like the kid that like both my husband and I are musical and, you know, always had music in the house and sang and played. And for years, I'd be like, taught me to teach you this. Do you want me to teach that night night and I was I think it was, you know, out of, you know, rebellion against Moto and mom to teach me something, you know. And then all of a sudden, remember the that squid game that TV show that was big about a 12 months ago, the same song of that like the do do this kind of little tune on a recorder. So all of a sudden Alex decides he wants to play the recorder. And I'm like, Okay, that's great. So I didn't really take him seriously. So I ended up buying him recorder because the kids had a recorder when they were little. And I pulled it to pieces and hid the pieces around the house because I hate it. It's like there's a there's a keyboard here. There's a guitar there. Could you play something else anyway, so he loved it learnt heaps of songs on it. And I thought, I can't have this sound. It's issues with particular sounds, it really triggers me. So I bought him a tin whistle and Irish tin whistle so a nicer sound. It was in a different, like different key. So it challenged him but he loved it learn all these songs. And then one day he just says, I just want to play the bagpipes. And I've just gone up Jesus. Could you not pick something a bit louder? Like, anyway, so in 12 months this kid is, is he's joined the local band. They've been on blowies boat horn, but I will he's, he's they say he's got the most potential of any kid they've seen, you know, in a long time. He's picked it up so quick. And I'm like, I'm just so damn proud of him because he loves it. You know, he's always been a bit left of centre he like always like listening to Scottish music or something a bit different. And I've always embraced it. Because I'm a bit like that as well. So you know, and I just think good for you mate. Like he's found the thing he loves and he's the sort of kid that won't necessarily try hard unless he really likes something. So yeah, we live in the dream now. Because I see DC they have a bag. Yeah, the other day we're watching the I feel GranFondo and they had you know the the bagpipers coming out for your voice and it's like they go mate. And I've always I've also had someone online because we share a little video on on our Facebook, say, Oh, I'm getting married soon, I'm gonna need someone to play the bagpipes. Like, they go mate, you know, and people love it. Like, it's a sort of, if you hear it sort of off in the distance of bagpipe. It's, you know, you get the hair sort of, you know, you get it get goosebumps, whatever. It's amazing instrument. It's just not so amazing when it's literally just out the door. Well, I'm trying to do things in here. But anyway, long story short, He's found his thing and he's, he's thriving and good on you for being open to that as well. Because I think, you know, that that is really important thing that I think parents need to understand is it may not be the thing that you thought it would be, it might be something completely different. But yeah, if you can give them the space and the support to find that thing. And, you know, also be part of it. You know, I do that as well. I say this thing like oh, you know, I don't want to blow my own horn or, you know, I don't want to show off or anything but the kids that have had no successes, and then to be extraordinary at something it's of course we should celebrate that You know, so you know, I think good on it and yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. We spoke earlier about how people connect with you people you've never met, you get the feedback that others are going through it. In your book, you mentioned about an experience where you were booked to speak in front of a whole lot of was it buyers? Buyers? book sellers, new sellers. Yeah. And you had, you know, your, your script, I guess that what you were going to say? And then you started to get these little nudges in your mind that you really wanted to share your son's story. And you did, and it went amazing. And, you know, the feedback you got from people afterwards talking to you for you know, so many hours. Like, it's, it's incredibly wonderful that there are people like you that can share, because I know there's a lot of people that can't but I just want to say how awesome it is that you are doing this, like it's it's just really great. Thank you. And look, I think I, I you know, you and I, we do have a platform. And as scary as it is to be vulnerable. I think that's also such a gift. Every time I've heard someone who has a platform, for whatever reason when they speak openly about something vulnerable. So you know, when I was a teenager, I might have been someone I'm famous coming out, or more recently, it's mental health, or even more recently now with somebody like em Oceana, spotlighting on ADHD, how powerful that is, and how connecting, and then how it does make people feel like that, that they can, you know, look at that person up there that looks like they've got it together so successful. They also have all this stuff going on, too. So I my case. You know, occasionally people say to be about my book horror, it's very vulnerable. For a lot of yourself out there and a panic, a lie awake at night going over bits. And I think, what are people gonna think of that fit? But I think what's the point of creating art, if you don't make something that matters, you know, there's so much froth out there anyway. You know, this is something that I hope would speak to you as a practicing artist and about your podcast being about practicing art, particularly as a parent, you have so little time to waste. Why why do frost why not do something real? vulnerable? Deep, authentic connecting, that's what art can do. Yeah, that's awesome. That is such a great way of looking at it. And I certainly feel that way. It's like, if you're going to do it go big. Before you get into clubs, I've had no pushback. That's the amazing thing. I thought that by now. I mean, it's only been a few weeks, but I thought there would be someone that would take me to task. But all I've got is people thanking me. And so I think it was worth it. It was worth doing that very thing. Because it was see that you're you're trying your best even if I don't get everything right. I'm just I'm trying my best. Right now in my stage of life. Yeah, absolutely. Now that's awesome. It's really interesting, your book. Now you've named it wild things as a reference to that amazing children's book where the wild things are. And throughout your book, you've sort of waved in these characters from other books, and then analyze them for one of a better word, brought them into the 21st century and saying, How would these children be the word diagnosed dying, that's a good way to be perceived in if they were here. Now. What would we say they had a better website. That's really interesting. What How did you come up with that idea? Because it's fascinating. And it's, it's really, it's really interesting, actually. I'm glad you say that. I think it's partly because partly it came from my own anxieties when I first started out writing the book that people would see my name on the book as a children's author and think why is she writing a book for grownups? So I thought, how can I connect what I do and have done for 25 years, this world, I'm passionate about children's literature with what I want to bring to an adult audience. And I taught writing for children for a long time at RMIT in Melbourne. And I always ask my grown up students to bring in a book from their childhood, every time someone holds up a book that meant something to them as a child, the reaction that they have to that, or the memories that are locked into that book, and visceral, you know, we have such a deep connection to our childhoods. We forget that sometimes. And sometimes just bringing an object or a book, or something from your childhood can trigger all these incredible feelings and memories. So I thought, all these books that we grew up reading, you know, we celebrate these characters, and we love them, they become part of our lives, they become part of our culture. So many of them are Naughty. Naughty, because one of the keys to writing good literature is you need conflict. You know, a story doesn't, you know, there's no such thing as a story where just everything happened, nothing happens. You know, the story is created by conflict. It's created by adversity, it's created by all these things, and your main character, you've got to give them some agency. And usually that happens by bucking the system, challenging authority, making changes. And that can usually only happen if you're a little bit of a rebel. So most of our most beloved characters are pretty rebellious. So we celebrate these characters in books. But when our children show the same traits, we really struggle with that like, oh, Ron, you're supposed to sit down and do what you're told, don't stand up and say, the books we're giving them are all about people challenging authority. And so I just wanted adults to, to want to think about that, to think about what it is that we expect from our children that's maybe unnatural, or maybe not even particularly healthy, but also to tap into our own childhood selves, because everything we experienced as a child work we're experiencing for the first time. So we see the world with eyes open and full of awe. And that's what you have to do as a daily practice. As an artist, you have to see the world as it for the first time every day. And that's why people when they travel, they often become creative, because they want to take photographs or write blog posts or lead us home. Because everything is new and exciting. That's what childhood is like. So we can tap back into that childhood aspect of ourselves. It's not infantilizing, it's actually portal into this extraordinary wealth of creativity, and hopefully, connection and compassion for our own children. Like we're looking at what they're doing. And I'm thinking, actually, you know what, I remember doing that myself as a kid, maybe I shouldn't be so hard on them. Like that was a massive tantrum I had as a kid, bend me into the Catholic to get me in. And yet, you know, when my child has a tantrum, you know, that's, that's intense, that's full on. And I had to try to remember how I felt to be able to have compassion for him and kids. To do that with me, it's a good reminder, isn't it? Because sometimes I think we expect so much of our little people, like we just think because I'm an adult, I expect my child to be in this world and engage in the same level. And we forget, you know, their brains are literally wired different to ours, you know, the, the certain parts of their brains haven't, you know, finished developing to, I don't know, till you're 21 or something, you know, like, it's massive. But yet, we just expect, like, perfect reminder for me, is like, I want my children to sit at the table and make their tea for do you think they will? Well, no one ever while the other one's not too bad. But it's like fiddle with every single thing that's on the table, try and hop off the chair 20 times. And so in the end, I just gave up but it's like, I don't, I don't want to experience this. This aggravation or this conflict at tea time. So now, the two of us sit together and have our tea watching the telly usually, and the other to sit up there and have a chat. And it's like, it works for us. And I hear these people say, Oh, we always sit around the table and have dinner together. I'm thinking, geez, you mustn't glue your children to the chair, or your children are not like my children, you know, and just except that, because when I was a kid, jeez, if we didn't sit at the table, you know, you know, we sat at that table, then I just accept, like, like he said, before any point, just acceptance, you know, and things don't always have to be perfect. And the way that, you know, we think they have to be. Yeah. And I think also it's a really good point is that sometimes we just have to recognize how much is unacceptable and how much have we just conditioned to think is unacceptable. And so the fact that you've gone with your gut instinct, and chewed into your child rather than thinking, Oh, this is how I should do it, because I got caught up in a lot of shirts because I had lots of friends with what seemed like perfect kids and doing everything in a different way. So I had to stop thinking that maybe there was something wrong with my kiddos just see these different and stop comparing myself to other parents or comparing to how I was, or even just the social conditioning rehab on what how kids should be. Yeah, that's a big one. That's something I've had to work hard on, I think. And also social media hasn't really helped that because you get to see, well, it's not really people's lives, it's the idea of the part of people's lives, they want you to see that, you know, it's like, oh, you should be doing this. And you should be doing that. And as a mother, you know, that's just like a minefield, find amazing people to follow, you just got to find the right people. Like, you've got to follow disability advocates like the two Ps, those two mums that talk about parenting and kids with disabilities for such no gravitas and humor at the same time. And so you just got to find your tribe, comparing yourself to other people that aren't like you. And that was exactly for me, as soon as I tapped into other communities. These are my people this is, yeah, that's really good. Before I move off of wild things in until the other book I want to talk about, I want to try and link this in, in my podcasts, I like to talk to my moms about the concept of mom guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because often I'll get a mom who just tells me, they don't even know what it is. And I had to google it. And I think that's wonderful. You know, like, it's, you know, everyone experiences things different and guilty or not guilty is one of those things. And I noticed in your book a lot, and you did talk before how you can be really hard on yourself. Is has that been a challenge for you? To not hold on to things? And yeah, you know, usually so and look, I think, I think the very first drafts that I wrote on my book, I just used as a blur as a cathartic experience to get out all the angst and all the guilt. And then I tried to pull it back more and more because it can become self indulgent, you know, and I felt like, Okay, now I've got it all out. This feels like my diary here. But now what's useful for other people? Is it still beating myself up? Is it saying what a bad person I am, you know, potentially what we can do for each other as my mother's is let each other off the hook, you know, you know, being open and saying, Yeah, this is where I messed up. You know what, that's just because I'm human. And so I think part of writing this book was also letting myself off the hook coming through that guilt. That I think so many mothers hold, potentially father's too, I haven't spoken to them to the same extent about that. But I, but I think we need to do ourselves a favor and just let each other off the hook and stop showing each other up and, you know, openly laughing about the things we get wrong and supporting each other when it's hard. I think that's building the tribe and the community and recognizing that, you know, we're really just doing the best we can. Yeah, absolutely. Because I actually think that women and mothers are really bad at doing that to each other, like we do it to each other a lot. And then we don't want it done to us. So I think if we could just stop doing it, it would be wonderful. But you can do that even in a conversation. Like I remember, in conversations I because I feel like I'm trying to be aware, I think self awareness is the biggest step. And you know, I would find myself in a group of other mothers maybe criticizing somebody or something. But we can be the person that just says, You know what, I do that too, or actually, you know, maybe she's having a bad day or whatever. And, you know, we can arrest that even if it does feel like a bonding thing at the time. It's not a really healthy thing to bond over. We can find other things to bond over. Yes, that's true. That's well said yes. The other book that you've recently released is with Eliza Holt, and you've mentioned Eliza and I'm having the lion's share on the podcast in a few weeks too, so I'm really excited about that. It's called come over to my house and can you share with us rather than me tell people you share again, in your own words, what was behind this book and how you came to be involved in the book as well? So I met Eliza through another one of your interviewees, Rachel power, who was A wonderful friend. And she interviewed me for the first edition of her book. The I think I don't know what the most recent one is. But it used to be called the divided heart. I think it's now the art of motherhood or something like that. Anyway, exactly what you're doing just finding other artists, mothers, how are you possibly doing this thing and actually having an artistic practice at the same time? Incredible book, and I give it to everybody who's a practicing artist, mother. It's a brilliant book. It is. It's a wonderful book, if you haven't read it, read it. In fact, to be shouted at it every episode because she's queen. And so she and I were on a panel with another couple of artist mothers. and Eliza Hall was in the audience. So it was years and years ago, before she even became a mother, I think she was thinking of becoming a mother. And she contacted me out of the blue, and we just started corresponding. And we became friends. She's an extraordinary musician, I downloaded one of her albums, and I had it on rotation in my car all day, every day for years, I think. And so, by absolute coincidence, after a few years, we both ended up in this mate, same small country town. So I was still living in Melbourne, but I had a bush block, just outside of Castlemaine in central Victoria. And she had not long ago moved to Castlemaine herself. So we just kept reconnecting because I really liked her she really liked me. And she had brought actually contributed a piece for the book, edited by Calif in late growing up disabled in Australia. And she also edited a book on parenting parents with disabilities and the challenges and the triumphs that many of these parents are happy to share. And she said that she had been thinking about writing a book for children, but it's wasn't an area that she was very familiar with, when I come on board with her. And being such a big fan of hers, I said, Yeah, of course, you know, I'd love to. And she is the person I credit to helping me understand how disability doesn't have to be a dirty word. So disability, if somebody owns that word with pride, just like indigenous and African American people are earning the word black with pride, or potentially pride with pride, with pride, then then, it becomes something that takes away the stigma around that word. So a lot of active self advocating people within the disability community will use that word, as a way of saying, there's nothing wrong with me, this is who I am, this is my community. But unless you create an accessible world, I'm not going to be able to be my reach my full potential. And she proposed that potentially, my son was also disabled by his environment, because if he was able to learn in a particular way, but the school wasn't able to support the way that he learned that he was also disabled. So that just blew my mind. He claimed that social disability. So we workshop, the idea of doing a picture book together, we're what the aim of it is to normalize disability, we just happened to be invited into I think, I can't remember now seven children's homes, the child might have a disability or the parent might have a disability, some things are done a little bit differently. Some things we do the same. But really, it's about just taking away the stigma around that word, opening us up into the world of these extraordinarily creative people who live with disability, and inviting into their homes. So there was a book I grew up reading in the 70s, by Dr. Seuss, called come over to my house. And it was, I remember, I loved it as a child, I read it again and again. And we were invited into all these homes of people who lived in different countries around the world than, you know, Japan, or India or whatever. Everybody had a slightly different house ate slightly different food, but they all like to play the same kind of games. So we've aimed to do the same thing with this book, we're inviting into these times. There'll be some similarities, some differences. But you know, there's nothing scary about it. Talk about talk about the similarities and the differences and normalize and D stigmatize those words, that fear is the thing I think it's people don't know what to say they don't know. I think what you've written in the beginning of your book about how people with disabilities like to be referred to whether I've got a disability, I'm a person with a disability. Now, I think we're scared of offending people or saying the wrong thing. And it's like, if we talk to people, if we talk to each other, and we say, How do you like to be referred to you? What would you like me to call you and lots and lots of listening? And that's where we do have access to extraordinary stories and people via social media, people who weren't able to access platforms to be heard before. And so you can politely ask if you can follow an activist on social media you know, Callie villa is a very outspoken activist that speaks very, very confidently in the area of disability and so there's lots to Learn from the stuff. That's just undoing all the conditioning that we've had growing up and understanding how, you know what, what the world is like for people that don't live with the same kind of privilege we do. And the best way we can understand that is just lots lots of listening. And there's a lot of amazing people to follow online that you can learn heaps from. We can all educate ourselves, it's you know, and, you know, that's where there is a delicate balance. Because, you know, there will be people that will say, well, it's not for us to carry the weight of having to educate everybody, you know, we don't want every single person coming up to us and asking, you know, how to lose your leg or whatever. So we're hoping this picture book for children is that it starts communication starts conversation, sorry, around different forms of disabilities. And also, the kinds of questions we can ask because children are genuinely interested, curious and naive. And so we can have these conversations and we can say our Do you know, do you think that men will feel comfortable with you just staring at him all the time? You know, how would you feel if you were invited to a party and you couldn't get in because your wheelchair couldn't get over the step in the playground or, you know, actually creating empathy, compassion, and the more we can hear the stories from people themselves, rather than people like me talking on their behalf. More important that is, and that's why of course, it's fantastic. You've got Eliza on your program, because I'm looking forward to that God. And she's a wonderful person. Yeah. And I Yeah, music like, I don't know how I didn't know. She also was a singer and a songwriter. And like, wow, she's amazing. Yeah. So if you're listening alive, so looking forward to chatting with you? So I want to go back to you, as a mum, do you feel like you want your children to see you, as Sally that does all these things, and you're not just their mom, and I'm putting that in air quotes, because you're never just a mom. But you know that your children see that you've got all these other elements to then the caring role, the mothering role? Yeah, I think that's really important. And in the years where I did carry a lot more guilt than I allow myself to now, I used to worry a lot about working a lot, because I worked really, really, really hard. And so often I might be away on tour, or I might have to, after dinner, go back into the studio to work or, and would sometimes mean that I'd missed some school things or, you know, and then I would feel bad about that. But I think all my working mothers can relate to that. But I guess what I hoped is that what I'm role modeling is that if they have a female partner in the future, there won't be an assumption that it just falls on one person to do the domestic labor or the childcare, that I can model what it's like to be an independent person in the world. I've always been financially independent, I've always, you know, worked really hard to forge a career for myself. And so even though I have sons, not daughters, I think it's as important to role model that for them, as it would be if I had daughters, and they're really proud of me now, you know, my oldest son's 29 Oh, my, oh, actually, not all my sons, my two oldest sons. In the creative arts, so the oldest one is interested in writing and filmmaking. The middle one is a visual artist, along with a million other things. My youngest son's into math, so I'm not quite sure how to connect. i That's pretty creative, too. But, you know, what they've seen is that you can be loving, you can be nurturing, you can be dedicated to your children, and you can also have space for yourself. And that's actually what it is to be a whole healthy human in the world. You know, nobody should have to completely sacrifice themselves for anybody else. That's not healthy. You know, we can be full people in the world and also be amazing parents as well. And so I just feel like I had to role model that to my kids, and get over that angst that I would carry about not being there at every assembly. Being really terrible at baking cakes. I'm just and that's okay. Yeah, exactly. And I was always good on You mentioned briefly earlier how that your son Sam inspired you to write a couple of the series is that your that you've written? Can you tell us a little bit more about that. So before Sam, it became clear that Sam was struggling to read, I wrote the kind of books I like to read as a child, so sophisticated, you know, plots, dense texts, you know, elaborate vocabulary, all of those things, because I was a very good reader. And I found reading easy and accessible. So they're the kind of books I set out to write, partly from my own ego as well, because I wanted to show off what a good rider so those weren't ever going to be books that Sam was going to be able to access. So and I call him Sam, he's not really called Sam. But for the purposes of the book and all the publicity, he said, yep. And to give him some privacy. And so the only books that he was able to read, we're the school readers, and they serve a very important purpose. They are there to teach kids to read, but they often don't have storylines or character development. And they're often a bit boring. I thought, the challenge for me would be to create books that would use that kind of language and vocabulary and sentence structure, but actually have proper character development and plots and so forth. And I tested them all out on them. So I would watch him. And if I lost his attention, I would short nerd or I would speed up the story or whatever. So they're all road tested with past him. And then because those books reach so many kids, what that message very strongly sent to me was, there are a lot of kids out there, like Sam, who may not be dyslexic, but just may find reading really hard. So everything I've written from then on has been for those kinds of kids, because not many other people are doing, I think there's a lot of humor around for kids. There's a lot of kind of cartoon comic books for kids, and they are really, really important too. But to explore something that goes into an emotional terrain, or perhaps, perhaps stories of friendships, it's hard to find those in a lot of the really, really fast paced accessible books for kids. So I try to do that and everything I write, to make sure that it works on lots of levels. So the poly investor series, for example, can be read on the surface as a story about rich and the monster playground story. But the further you go into it, and the more you want to explore it with a child, the more you can see that it's actually a story about apartheid. You know, it's potentially a story about the Trump era story about racism, you know, depending on how deep you want to go with your child. But I trust that children want complex stories, they may not be able to access them with their reading skills, but they have extraordinary minds. I mean, I remember, the Think of that I was as a child, that's the one skill that I've been able to hone throughout writing for children is that I can transport myself back to a six year old really easily. And I remember how I thought how I felt. And it's not less than we do now. It's not as sophisticated. But if anything, I think I felt things even more keenly as a child than I do now. And so I don't want to write down to them, but I do want them to have something they can access for themselves. Hmm, yeah, that's really thoughtful. That's really cool. That's very clever to to be able to write like that. And also, because your first will not actually your first book, but the book when about being China, about that was written for like, you know, the young adults, and then you can write for little people, two sets, and you've written for adults as well, like, that's very versatile. It's, well, you can play instruments, and I can't do that. Oh, I tell you what, I hold musicians as the top talent, as far as I'm concerned, as far as out of scope, because it's like musicians can hold a world in their heads. It's not just words, but it's all these different sounds that come together to create one sound. And for me, that is just like the epitome of creativity. It's I'd never thought of it that way. It's probably what I get so distracted. Oh, that's funny. I've always found this fascinating. And I have had many conversations with teachers over the years about how, how do we actually learn to read write. And I didn't actually really know there were these two clear different sort of forces of opinion working against each other. About, I always wondered whether you actually, like, picked up each letter and sanded down each letter. And that was how you got it, or whether you just recognize almost like, Hey, you recognize logos or symbols that you just remembered. That's how that word looks. And it was fascinating. When you write in the book that even now when we read, as adults, like fluent readers, we're still doing that, almost like the phonics way. In a while we're reading and I thought, gee, that's interesting. So rather than again, maybe try and explain, could you share some intelligent thoughts. So, so one of the amazing things that came up in some of my early research, and this sounds like such a simple thing, but it is actually mind blowing, is that while we are our brains, while we are born with brains that have the capacity for oral language, that is, while we're inside the womb, we are actually learning the tone. And we're learning we're developing the skills to be able to speak just from listening to our mother's mother speaking. So we have a French speaking mother will be attuned to Frenchmen were born, bilingual parents, children, attune to two languages, and so on. So we were born with the brains that have the capacity to be able to use our language, because our language is 100,000 years old. Written language, however, is only five and a half 1000 years old. So we actually don't have a space in our brain when we're born, that is set up for reading. So we have to actually rewire a part of our brain to be able to be a skilled to read and fluent reader. So the way that this is done is that part of the brain that is used for visual processing combines with another part that's used with oral and this is a very, very simple way of just describing very dense neuroscience. But essentially, it's recycled. So that we create what this very famous French professor has called the letterbox His name is Stanislas de Haan, you can find his talks online, He's extraordinary. We can now look inside brains because of neuroscience and see what's happening as we acquire reading skills. And so that's how they've been able to actually scientifically prove what happens in the brain when we learn to read. So before we were able to do that, like you say, there was a couple of schools of thought about how it might be that we acquire reading and one of them was the whole word approach that we do. We see a word like an image and we store it, and that then is retained and retrieved when we need that word. But we now know that in fact, what we're doing painstakingly as a child, is breaking words down into a code sounding out all the little pieces of the word. So pH sounds like, you know that oh can sound a few different ways. And so we do that painstakingly as a child, but the more we practice that the more that wiring happens in our brain, so it becomes automatic. But if we're not taught those skills, which the broad umbrella comes under the umbrella of phonics, but it's also thought of as decoding where we actually break the word down together to create meaning, then we can potentially get by for a while, because for a while, there will be certain words that we can recognize up to a certain extent, or we can guess by using the cues in the book by looking at the pictures. But once we get to that grade three, that's when we when you actually see that kids who haven't acquired those reading skills, really plateau and flounder, and that's what happened with my son. So some kids will seem to pick it up naturally or by osmosis by not being taught to decode, but some kids won't. So the the people who argue for teaching phonics from early on, the argument is that while some kids will manage to learn to read, just by doing some guessing and managing to create some kind of reading skills on their own without being specifically taught, there'll be many that aren't. So this is a way that guarantees that all kids will be taught to read. Now if you're dyslexic, you may need extra support and extra practice outside of the classroom, same skills, but you can you may need up to four times the amount of practice than a non dyslexic, but even Dyslexics can be taught to read if they're taught with this very systematic phonics instruction. So somehow it's you know, I didn't have a stake on either side and you know, Think about it or read the brain science. And it really just comes out time and time again, for people who know this stuff. I'm just sharing what I've learned that that is the way that we can guarantee that kids won't fall through the cracks. And somehow there are still arguments about it. But for me, you know, this might be controversial. It feels like listening to flat Earth as argue now, yes, there was a time, we couldn't know if the earth was round. But now we know what happens in the brain as we learn to read. And the best practice of teaching it, we just don't need to get on board. That's it will go through school like my Sam did without learning how to read and everything will fall apart there. So we're in a transition phase, there's a lot of extraordinary mothers that are lobbying to have screening done really early on to be able to pick out kids that are struggling to read, they're out, unfortunately, becomes political. But there are, you know, there are lots of people now who are advocating to have one form of teaching Trump taught across the board to ensure that all kids are taught to read, having said that, the argument against phonics is that people will say, Oh, it's boring, it's dull. It's like what was done in the 1950s. And it'll turn kids off reading. Yeah, it can seem a little bit boring and dull, like learning, you know, the notes for piano, for example, in the very early days, that can seem pretty boring. But meanwhile, you're playing music to them. So they're thinking, oh, one day, I'll be able to do that. So of course, while kids are learning to decode by using this explicit systematic phonics instruction, you read them beautiful literature, so they know what they're going to be able to access once they develop those skills for themselves. And that's what parents can do at home. So the worst thing that any parent can be told now, I realize is that if you read your to your child enough, they will just pick up reading, because that is awful for a parent that's done everything right to here, and their child still doesn't read. So they need to be taught. And you can support that at home by reading to them from birth, but it's not your responsibility to teach them. Yeah, that's it. And then it takes out that that horrible sort of the guilt ridden pneus that a lot of us moms feel when it's like, what did we do wrong? I thought we did what everyone said to do, you know, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And it was interesting in the book to those example, those couple of examples around that phonics was a I can't think of the exact time period. But in America, at one point, they completely changed how they were teaching it my saying this right, and then all of a sudden, the decline, like was measurable of because they changed how they were teaching. Sorry, can you make sense of that? Yeah, lots of those texts coming out. Lots of those stats are coming out now about, you know, people are looking for all different reasons as to why we have a society that reads less of that kids are getting to the end of primary school and not being able to have basic literacy skills. There are lots of speculation around that. But all the research is showing that a lot of it is just because they haven't been explicitly taught. So I do give examples in the book of some schools that have changed the whole teaching program around and gone from the lowest rung of the NAPLAN results in reading to the top rep. And these are in disadvantaged areas and not ones that are getting tutoring outside school. So it's also a way that we can ensure that it's not just the kids that grow up in educated, privileged, financially secure households, like my son get the support they need. But all kids even in non English speaking background, in apartments, where maybe they're sharing one computer amongst, you know, five kids, or, you know, every child needs to be able to given the same stat in life. That's what our public education system is about. And so the only way to ensure that all kids can access literacy skills that they're going to need is by teaching them in this specific way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good job. And I'm doing it on behalf of other people, because obviously, I can't know if Sam would have been a fluent reader had he been taught differently. You know, it's not a sliding door situation. I can't go back and do it all again. But from every single expert I've spoken to and all the research has come out and all the books I've read. It points to that. Yep. There's a quote in there by Astrid Lindgren, who's an extraordinary Swedish writer, she was extraordinarily successful in her time. And she just has this beautiful quote that I put in the back of the book that give your children love, more love, and more love, and the rest will come. And I think, you know, it can be easy to project, our idea of success on our kids or who we think our kids should be. But I think in the end, if they can go through life, knowing that someone just loves them completely for who they are, that's about the best thing you can do for them. And I think that's the most important thing I tried to instill in my son is if he's a good and worthy person, no matter what he chooses to do with his life. Yeah, that's lovely. That's beautiful. And I'm going to add a quote to that. I can't remember who said it in the book, but it said, trust your kids, they will show themselves to you and be ready to love who you say. I thought that was a really good one. That was you that said, bravo to you. Well done. Well, thank you so much, Sally. It's been such a joy chatting to you. And thank you for sharing your story and your son's story. And yeah, being a part of of the chat today. It's been lovely. It's been really nice chatting with you. I feel like we could probably go on for hours. We probably have to break out the wine soon. All right, cyanide. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with a Nazi stick mum