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Danielle Kloberdanz Netherlands born author S2 Ep52 Listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts (itunes) Spotify and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Danielle Kloberdanz, an author based in San Diego, California and a mother of 4. Danielle was born and raised in the Netherlands. A child of 3, Danielle was always interested in children, and began baby sitting the neighbours children when she was 12. She was drawn to big families, and the energy they bring. Danielle was fascinated with children's growth and development and went on to study Developmental Psychology at College, It was on a trip to the US for her sister's wedding that she met the man who was soon to be her husband, 9 months later in fact! They enjoyed a whirlwind romance, travelling Europe together, before being married and settling down. Her dream was to have 4 children, and Danielle was determined to make that happen, even in the face of health issues, bed rest, premature births and miscarriages. But when Danielle finally realised her lifelong dream of having 4 children, it was then that she slowly realised that she no longer existed as a person, and her idea of what being a 'good mum' meant, was challenged. Danielle released her first book Inner Compass Mom: Finding Peace and Purpose in the Midst of Motherhood in May 2021 which outlines her journey, and the life changing experience which lead to her new outlook on motherhood. **This episode contains discussions around miscarriage, premature birth, ** Connect with Danielle Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to gain touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest this week is Danielle Clover Dan's an author based in San Diego, California, and a mum of four children. Danielle was born and raised in the Netherlands, a child of three. Danielle was always interested in children and babies, and she began babysitting the neighbor's children when she was 12. She was drawn to big families and the energy they bring. Danielle was fascinated with children's growth and development, and went on to study developmental psychology at college. It was on a trip to the US for her sister's wedding that she met the man who assumed to be your husband. Nine months later, in fact, they enjoyed a whirlwind romance traveling Europe together before being married and settling down. Her dream was always to have four children. And Danielle was determined to make that happen. Even in the face of health issues, bed rest, premature births and miscarriages. But when Daniel finally realized her lifelong dream of having those four children, it was then that she slowly realized that she no longer existed as a person. And her idea of what being a good mom meant was challenged. Danielle released her first book, inner compass mum finding peace and purpose in the midst of motherhood in May of 2021. The book outlines her journey and the life changing experience which led to her new outlook on motherhood. This episode contains discussions around miscarriage and premature birth. Music you'll hear today is from Australian ambient music trio LM Joe, featuring myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John N is used with permission. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Welcome along today, Danielle, it's such a pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast. Well, thanks for having me. I am intrigued by your podcasts and listened to several and Oh, thank you. I was excited to be on this one. Awesome. Wow, what time is it in your your zone? Well, we've just gone past 11:30am So it's quite a nice Sunday morning. Just nice and lazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. It looks sunny in your place. Yeah, I've had to close the blinds because the sun's coming in so much. It's like distorting, like how I look to you. Yes, I can see the glow. I have to do some artificial glow because the sun is going down here. So yeah. What's the what's the time there? It's 7pm. Right. Yeah. We just had the time change the, you know, daylight savings. Yeah, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So we're about to you right now. In San Diego, San Diego, San Diego, California. Right now you're in San Diego. But whereabouts did you start out in life? Well, I was born and raised in Holland, in the Netherlands. And I well, I moved to San Diego or to actually to Orange County, California, at the age of 26, barely 26. But before I met my husband, I you know, just did the normal thing and went to college to study developmental psychology in Amsterdam. And then I, I had, you know, a job for about a year it was hard to find a job in my field actually. And I worked at a temp agency for a year and that's when I met my my husband during that time. But yeah, so I just I, to be honest, I never really cared about a career. I just wanted to have a family and but what do you do? You're not just gonna sit around wait for some guy to come along. Are you, you know, you got to make some of your life and then hopefully it all happen. So I went to college, and I always loved babysitting, I loved hanging out with kids, I loved watching their, you know, development and how they think and how they would learn. So I was intrigued by children's. So developmental psychology really seemed to fit fit me. And so that's what I pursued. And yeah, until I met my husband, when I was 25. Actually, he got married when I was 26. And then I moved over to the United States. Yeah. So that that interest in wanting to become a mom, that intense drive, was that something cultural or something that you'd been exposed to growing up? Was that sort of the norm that you would grow up? Women would have children? Or was that something innate in yourself? Do you think? Well, my mom was a stay at home mom, until I was and I'm, I'm the youngest of three, I have two older sisters, and we're all a couple of years apart. And then my mom started working when I was in my mid teens, so to say, but I always just I wanted to be a mom, I wasn't sure what I would. I wasn't really sure what I was good at. Like in school, I was kind of an average student, like, nothing really stood out. The actually the best the subject that was that was easiest for me, was actually English, English is mandatory middle school and high school. And that was the only subject that was kind of came more natural to me. It turned out came in handy later, for sure. But I was intrigued by by science, but I wasn't very good at it. You know, like math, oh, my gosh, you know, just just not my thing. So I was like, What am I good at? What is my passion. And then I started babysitting the family across the street from us when I was like, 12, just an hour. So mom could do groceries, and I just loved it. And they, they had a big family, they ended up having five kids. And the parents themselves were from large families. So whenever there was a birthday party, I was invited, and the whole house was just filled with this wonderful energy. People were laughing and having wonderful comfort stations. And everybody just seemed happy. And I just wanted to create a big happy family for myself. And that's all I really wanted. I just wanted to be a stay at home mom, and I thought I would thoroughly enjoy it. Well, we'll talk about that later how to, you know, the life that I wanted happen and then, you know, it turns out isn't really as fulfilling as I had hoped it would be. talking us through, you know, you met your husband, you got married? Was it then like straight away? Right, let's do this. We're gonna have this family that I've always dreamed of. How did how did it sort of go from there? Yes. So when? So I met my husband at my sister's wedding actually, she was able, I mean, we all grew up in Holland. You know, we my sister, so but she was able to get a two year visa to work in the US. And during that time she met a guy decided to marry him. And so we went to the wedding. And that's where I met my husband. And we so we dated for a while. I mean, nothing happened at the wedding. People can read the story in my mom, they can read all the details and how all that went down. But basically, because I was living in Holland, we basically dated internationally and we traveled in Europe and we dated in you know, Belgium like Bruges and Antwerp and Barcelona and then basically, seven months, but no, it was eight months after we met he proposed to me in in Prague, so and the next month we were married so like within like nine months out After we met, we were married. And we, we read it, and then a couple months later was able to emigrate. Yeah, we were married in February. And I emigrated in April. So that all happened really fast. And so we decided to wait a little bit with having kids because also, my husband wanted to get his master's in business. So we decided to just get that out of the way before we'd have kids and enjoy a little bit more freedom before you know, babies would arrive and get to know each other even better each other nine months. But I will say, when you travel together, you get to know each other really fast. And it's either going to work or it's not. And it was going to work. So we we were just both convinced, you know, once you know, you just know. And we just celebrated our 24th wedding anniversary. Stories isn't it's a real love story. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. My husband comes from a large family. By the way, I was thrilled to find out when I met him, and we get to know each other, that my husband is one of eight children. He's number five. And I just loved it. And his older siblings already had kids. And so every family get together was just filled with, you know, that same kind of energy. The laughter everybody's talking, and just having a great time and bringing up both stories from the past. And just I don't know, there's just something about big families that I just love. And yeah, so he's like, Okay, you want to have kids? Okay, well, three, or fours. What do you have in mind? Well, first half of what I grew up with, so I guess, we'll figure out how to manage that my mum managed to, you know, raise eight children. I don't know how she did it. Anyway, yeah. So yeah, so you're pretty happy with four. Four is a good number. Well, it's an even though it I was I was the last one of three. So sometimes I did feel like, you know, my two older sisters would, would play together. And I was always a little too young or third wheel basically. So I always figured, you know, if possible, even numbers, and my husband loves numbers. He loves even numbers. He's, he's his background is in accounting. He's not he does production now. But he, he loves even balance. And it worked out well actually. Having two sets of kids basically. Yeah, tell us about that. Yeah. Yeah. The first two are close in age. They're 19 months apart. And and then I felt tell you after the second one, because I always had complicated pregnancies. I was putting bedrest I had preterm labor with every every child. With the first one. I made it to 38 weeks, so I thought, well, maybe it wasn't that big of an issue. Maybe we'll be fine. So we tried for another one. And I, I got pregnant, fast. And so they're 90 months apart, but I was definitely put up that this again with the second one. So she was actually born five weeks, early at 35 weeks. But the fine she was in the NICU for like eight days, I think. And then she came home. So that was a bit like, oh, wow, that's, you know, you know, a second pregnancy and now you know, we are preterm here, but 90 months is is a bit challenging. I think any parent who has kids close in age knows that you probably will have to in diapers for a while. And then there's this sibling rivalry that really was an issue. And it's a lot. So I actually thought, oh, and at the time, my husband was really busy. Like he worked 60 hours a week. He traveled a lot. So I felt like I was a single mom. So after having to I thought there's no way You can have more kids, I can barely manage to what was I thinking, wanting to have all these kids, it's just no way. But as life went on, and the kids got to be a little bit older, and you know of the diaper phase and things like that, I did start secretly longing for another baby, there's just something in me that said, I don't want to be done, baby, there's something about having babies, and I don't know, I just didn't want to be done. And then actually, what happened was, I had, I had just regular you know, bloodwork done just a doctor's appointment to suit annual checkup, or whatever it was just like, hey, we haven't checked your blood. And while let's just see. And it turned out that my platelet count was really, really low. And so they sent me to a specialist. And the specialist said, this is this is not good. This is not a good situation, we got to figure out what's going on, because you could have an autoimmune disease disorder. It might be leukemia, it might be a mess. And I was just shocked. Because I mean, I did feel healthy, but you just never know what's going on, you just don't know. So I went back for several months to get checked and checked. And it turned out what probably happened was my birth control, which my naturopathic doctor said, like, why don't you stop taking birth control, because I had switched and sometimes that I guess, with some can be the cause of, you know, but the platelets start to stick anyway, not a doctor. So, but after several months, my blood started. So unlike normal levels again, and then I think it was like seven months. And my doctor said, Okay, I guess you're, you're healthy. It must have been that and, you know, you have a clean bill of health. And I remember sitting in my car after that appointment, and I just started crying like, oh my gosh, you know, like, this is like a miracle you because, you know, I had so much fear, like, what if I have a disease? What if I have something that's really life changing? Or, you know, potentially worse, so? And I remember it so well, that moment, because I think our youngest was about two or three, two years old. And I thought, Well, what do I want to do, you have a second chance of living healthy life. And I just remember, I know exactly what I want. And I want to I want to have more babies. And I want to stop living in fear. Because there are no guarantees in life. There really aren't, you don't know what tomorrow's gonna bring. So I figured I might as well go for my big dream and figure it out. And right at the time, I My husband was able to get the job in San Diego. And we ended up moving and everything became a lot more manageable and simple. And just a normal 40 hour workweek and a short commute. So that created space for us to have another baby and and then yeah, number girl number three came along and and then you know, I was ready like after yours ready paid. Let's do this. Let's have another one. Come on baby number four, right all in well. And then I think God or the Universe told me that so fast, not so fast. So I miscarried a couple of times, which was, which was really shocking to me that really, that really messed with me. Well woke me up actually, just to be the more I think the more grateful for how easy it was always for me to get pregnant. I would always get pregnant right away and the Healthy Kids and that's something you can never take for granted, you know. But I was going through a trying time of Wow. So I am feeling this really strong desire for a fourth child. That just felt so right to me like, No, we're gonna have four kids. This is what I wanted. This is what I'm gonna get. This is yeah, why wouldn't I Why wouldn't that happen to me or for me? And because of the two miscarriages and because I get pregnant And right away. I'm like, I need time I need to figure out, I need to get some answers. And I was already very spiritual. And what I do is I basically asked the universe guide me show me, what am I supposed to do? Give me some answers. And I knew I had to just give it some time and like, I'm not gonna, we're not going to try for a few months, several months, we're just going to wait and then try to think about it and just just give it maybe even half a year. And then we'll see if I get any signs if I changed my mind, I don't know. And then, pretty quickly after I decided actually, to just wait for a few months, I had this dream. I don't know if I should go to all these details. It's all in the book. But it basically was, I was at this convention. And there was this Native American Chief is very wise man that anybody had questions? He could answer like he was connected to God university could just channeled answers. And I was waiting patiently for my turn. And I kind of close my eyes kind of meditating is it was all in my dream. And, of course, I knew what I was going to ask like, are we meant to have a fourth child because I believe you can want something but I also believe it has to like, integrate with what maybe the universe wants for you. Or there's some mystery around that. Like, what is freewill? What is destiny? What are we meant to do here? So I just wasn't sure. Anyway, in my dream, when I finally it was my turn to ask this chief. I opened my eyes and it was kind of waiting. I had been it's gonna be kind of weird. The teeth was not there. But there was big poster that said, Yes, of course, you meant to have another child just don't wait. You need to try now. And I'm like, gosh, I woke up and I go, Oh, my gosh, it's here. This is it. And it's I don't know any any listener who who's worked with beans before and has had these guiding dreams, the energy that comes from these dreams. It's so different. You feel transformed, you wake up, and you know, this is different. This is not just oh, you're just processing your day today. Your worries, your anxieties. This is this is a lot more and you just know, this is it. I have to follow this. And yeah, sure enough, nine months later, we had our baby boy. It's like, I will live my life that way. If I if I'm stuck. I don't know. I throw my I know, there's an answer for me. And I throw it out there in the universe to God or whatever you want to call it. Just expect an answer to come and it always comes you got to learn to receive it. Yeah, that's it isn't about being open and allowing it to come and not questioning or not trying to second guess it's just what do you have to tell me and just waiting for it to come? Yeah, it does. If you Yeah, if you're open to it, you'll you'll get it? Yeah, I'm a big believer in that too. Yeah. So you hate we've got your four kids, you've got your dream. And how did things go from them? So I think moms who are listening can recognize that you know, the first couple of years the baby years toddler years, they're just intense It's physical. It's draining I mean, you don't sleep at night you're just chasing them they're starting to crawl I mean it's it's very demanding. And and then you think well, it's gonna get easier as they get a little older and it does it does get easier so that's what I thought you know, let's see had you know, first of all, after I had two kids that well it's gonna get easier it was very hard in the beginning with only 19 months apart, and then it got easier and then yeah, we added more kids so I thought okay, it's a lot I got a kid in elementary school and a preschool and then again, a toddler at home and a newborn but it's gonna get easier we're gonna get through this and many others have done this before me. And and and something Of course, they'll get easier. But there's also other things that got harder, you know, you're dealing with four kids with very different personalities, and every kid needs something else from you. And I think one of the frustrating parts is, you think you've figured something out with one kid, and you're like, Oh, this is great, it's working, this is working, my kid is actually doing what I needed to do, or everything is kind of flowing better, and you try to apply it to another kid forget, it's not going to work. Or two weeks later, a month later, the same system, same approach, it's just not working anymore. So you constantly have to, like reinvent yourself or something. And so, it, it was harder and or in different ways. And that feeling that I was looking for, and longing for, of like creating this, basically, this this house full of joy, these kids running around and being all happy and bringing me joy and liveliness, and you know, the whole purpose. It. Yeah, there were moments like that. Absolutely. You know, but not enough for me to say yes, now I have exactly what I wanted. Technically I did it looked like that on the outside, I have exactly a good list, a great husband, Healthy Kids, great neighborhood, beautiful home, good schools, and something was still missing. And I wasn't happy. And I, for the longest time I would beat myself up stuffing so ungrateful. Be grateful for all the gifts in your life. You should be happy, you should be happy, you should be happy. Why are you not happy. But at some point, when my youngest was in preschool, I realized, stop, you got to start listening to yourself. Because if you don't make a change, now, you're going to end up being bitter and unhappy and resentful, and you do not want to go. You don't want to be that person. So that's when I went on my my journey of getting some answers of how I would make some changes in my life. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming four kids, you've outlined you know all the different stages. It's also demanding like weird. Did you actually fit in there? Did you feel like you were just that you existed only for your children? That was the only thing that you did was meet the needs of your children? Basically, yeah, I basically I was wanting to be moms. So now I know, the way I define being a good mom. And I'm connected to a lot of moms in especially in my neighborhood. And basically, I now know why I got so stuck and why I wasn't as fulfilled with my situations because I the way I defined what it means to be a good mom. And that's how we get stuck. That's how I got stuck. I will find being a good mom as someone who you got to give everything to your children and you just do everything, maybe not do everything for them. Because you know, they gotta learn to do things on their own. But, you know, you you create that family, you create the memories and you you know, you drop everything and you make sure to go to the birthday parties, and they go to try different sports and music and, and everything because you give give give because that's a bit mum. Because when you're a good mom, you make sure you you give them the right education and that they do really well in school. So you support all their education, their school, and if they need anything, you're right there talking to the teacher, whatever it takes to give this child and all these kids the best possible situation so that they can go to college and have a good career later on because then there'll be happy and then and I didn't realize that that's where it all came from until I had my spiritual awakening a few years ago. It was so because I thought if they did well and checked all the boxes, you know The boxes, graduating high school, going into college graduating, they're finding a good company to work for getting married, given me grandbabies, that will mean that I had done a good job as a mom. And when I had my spiritual awakening, I realized all the flaws in my thinking, because it's just not true. It's just not true. And it doesn't mean the opposite is true. Like, yeah, that. Because, yeah, we all influence our lives. Our kids, like they influence everybody that who we meet, who, whose lives we touch we do. But when I had my awakening, I saw that the picture is so much bigger than we experience in our day to day life, or at least that than what I had experienced in my day to day like, it's like, almost like I used to have tunnel vision. And then even the narrow vision I had of my life and life in general, was also tainted by this lens that was so colored by life experiences, by biases by judgments by your culture by a roll up. Yes. So when I had that, that awakening, which just basically happened in broad daylight in my kitchen, not being under the influence of anything, every reason? Why did you smoke? Me? And people can read about that in the compass. Mom, how that all went down? I won't go into details. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It shifted my perspective completely about everything that I believed was true, you know, waking up to all my false and limiting beliefs. Yeah, so when you had that, how did you then make the changes, I suppose like, it's, like you say, had this moment, and it's the sixth you've had this. I don't know what the word is epiphany, it's, you've realized how you can live your life in a different way to, to, to feel, you know, meet your needs, I guess, where you like practically, then like, how did you think, Oh, how am I actually going to do this? I suppose. That's a big question, I suppose. Yeah. Well, let me let me try to answer that. Because about a year before it had that awakening, I had already decided that I needed to make a change. I think my youngest my son was about three years old. And I already had recognized or acknowledged that. I'm not happy. Stop denying it. You need to make a change, because this is not going to get any better automatically. I have to, and I didn't know how I was going to make a change. But I realized what I was what I was craving was silence. I just needed solitude. Just silence. And not all that mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, you know, it isn't just constant. They always need as soon as they see you for a while. This has just always been fascinating to me. They're playing nicely in their room, the doors open. So you walk by often they realize, oh, we need more. I'm like, No, he didn't need me for like half an hour. You didn't need me. And I'm walking by. And it's awesome. They need you. They need you for whatever, they'll come up with something. They make it up on the spot. They just need mom. So anyway, I was really craving just solitude and I was craving reading books again. I was never a big reader. But I was always interested in spirituality and psychology. And I hadn't read a book in 10 years or so. Because if you have kids, you don't even want to I mean, I talked to a lot of moms who are going through that now. I mean, I I published my book a year ago, almost. And a lot of moms with young ones. They say, I have your book. I just I just can't get to it. I am like I hear you. I hear you. So I actually recorded the audiobook because moms can listen to audiobooks or podcasts while they're folding laundry or commuting to work or whatever. So yeah, that'll help solve that. But yeah, I didn't. I didn't read a book for like 10 years and then it was Breathing, oh, information and getting that inspiration again, about you know, so I started reading. And then what actually happened was, I was so intrigued by what I read. In these books, I started taking notes, I started journaling about all these amazing insights, it was like, it was like I had been asleep for 10 years. And also, there's a whole new world out there, that doesn't really have kids in it. And it's like, so amazing. And I was just inspired again. And so yeah, I that's how I started to come alive. Again, reading and journaling, and even doing a little bit of art, drawing a little bit of painting again, and just taking time for myself. There's a quote in the book where you say that you discovered parts of yourself that you had forgotten about. And that would have been just an incredible thing, like you say, you got back to painting and creating, did that sort of take you back to a time where you didn't have children? That? Yes, yes. And I think the biggest thing that has to do with creating art is its flow. You need and you need time to get into that flow. And it's when you have you have kids at home, forget it, every few minutes, you're going to be interrupted. And that's you just can't have that flow. So when when my youngest started going into peaceful kindergarten, I had just more time and of course, I was very realistic, I was very lucky that I was able to stay at home with my kids and that I didn't have to have a job outside of the home, a paying job outside of the home. So I could actually do that and take some time. To myself and just schedule it. I had to schedule it like schedule a block of a couple of hours a week to make sure would happen because it's still busy. You know, you're doing all kinds of stuff. Yeah. Yeah, just because the children aren't there. It doesn't mean everything's that long and keeps on coming somehow. Yeah. That's why it's actually funny when you say about laundry. That's like the Bane I think every mother's existence, it just doesn't stop. And one day I was complaining about it to my own mom, and she said, You know, one day you're gonna miss doing their laundry. And I was like, Okay, mom. All right. Like, I could see that that was saying, you know, you grow up and you move out and we miss it. So I thought, right, I don't take it for granted. Like you're saying before, don't take things. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Let's do that. It's okay. Yeah, I hear that too. From I remember people saying, well, one day you're gonna miss this man. Yeah, but I still am struggling right now. Exactly. You still got to do it deprived and still and I think it's okay. For moms who are hearing this are overwhelmed because I think all moms go through this stage, but they're just overwhelmed. And when somebody tells them one day, you're gonna miss it. So try to enjoy it and it's like, no, you're not listening to me. I'm overwhelmed. It's okay to feel overwhelmed and and don't feel guilty about it. It's it's part of the journey it's it's okay it's a lot raising kids is a lot especially in today's world it can be overwhelming Yeah. comes down to even like 20 years ago like very different worlds. Yeah, that's for sure. You briefly mentioned guilt there. I'd love to bring you to one of the topics that I chat to my mom's about on this show is mom guilt and I always put it in air quotes because I know it's it's contrived word that I feel like our our social media society has made this this special word hashtag mom guilt. Yeah. That you know that experience for you. How do you How can you sort of relate to that? That mum guilt. I have definitely had my my share of mom guilt a lot, actually. Especially when you have four different kids and some some kids just need more support than other kids and it's kids don't come with a manual for First of all, and when you really think about it, I think somebody wants told me that there are more parenting books than dieting books. And to me, that only tells you one thing, nobody has really figured it out yet either. Otherwise, there would be one book, and we'd all be reading it. And so nobody has figured it all out. We have to just keep learning as we go, you can read all the books you want before you have that baby, and you will never be prepared for what is to come. Once that baby is there, you never will be you. So you just do the best you can you figure it out. But in the meantime, we definitely go through things. I can't imagine any mom and sister in law, and like mom's figured it all out. But I think all moms go through guilt. You go to bed at night, and you're like, Why did I raise my voice? Why did I bite my tongue? Why did I say this? Why did I? Or should I should have done this or should have done that? I've done this. You're constantly doubting yourself, like wondering if you should have done this or that. And you just feel guilty? Like? Because you're not sure what to do? Because nobody? Well, nobody will tell you that's not really the right thing. Because we don't even well, sometimes we want people to tell us but on the other hand, one size does not fit all. It's a thing that I've been frustrated with before when you see titles of books. And it sounds like Oh 10 steps to raise and that begins or well adjusted kids. And for some foster kids who have well integrated brains, for example, the the like the sticker system or the reward system, you know, to get kids to maybe clean up their room and do their chores. For kids who have well integrated brains and rebalance, it works like a charm. It really does work well. But for kids who are not forget it, it's not that easy. And it's frustrating when when you have a child that is, you know, a little more complex. And I know there's a lot of moms out there who struggled with that, like, well, it doesn't work for my kid, or you need to have a lot more layers to that system of support, to have somewhat of an effect. But anyway, I kind of digress here, but back to mom guilt. So yeah, it's real because we feel we're not sure if we're doing the right thing. But when I had my awakening, instantly, it was gone, all the guilt was gone. All the guilt, it was gone, all the should haves could have they were gone, be saved did not matter at all. What mattered was what I realized, as I was showered with this incredible, unconditional love that washed away anything negative. Whether it was guilt. I mean, I felt forgiven, even though forgiveness wasn't even really needed, because we're not guilty. We we just it's not easy being a human being. It's that's just the reality that because we live in our mental world, and that's it gets very conflicted. There's a lot of conflict happening in our mental world. And then when he was in that state, the guilt was gone, because I knew, I knew with every fiber of my being that all I needed to do was the best I could and it was enough. We're here to learn to grow and to evolve as individual souls and also as a collective and, and bold influence. You know, we influence the collective and the collective influences. As it turns out, there's just no way around that. It's hand in hand. And he, yeah, I realized I had such a narrow perspective before that experience. And all of a sudden, my perspective was so big. And I realized we are not born a blank slate. You know, we carry the DNA of our ancestors. We are influenced by our culture, our families, our teachers, society. And then I also believe we we carry energies from possibly past lives. And that all of that merges into one, individual. And so now, as a parent, we are trying to guide children who come with, let's call it baggage. And some have some lighter baggage and others have navvy baggage. And we think we can fix it, we think we can, we're supposed to fix it, we think we're supposed to pull them up on that mountaintop. And it's like an uphill battle. Because we don't realize that we actually have very little control, we actually have, like, no control, we can control anybody else really not really. And the thing was, I was completely surrendering to whatever was happening. I was completely in the moment, the past was just not important at all, they would just the past was just stories that got me to where I was now. And anything that I've ever maybe felt bad about. It didn't matter, because their stories. And what mattered was now I experienced the pure moment of awareness, which is now which is really all we have, because the past is gone. And when you really think about it, the future hasn't happened, we really only have the present moment. And I live purely in the moment, I didn't worry any more about the future, because there is no use to be worrying about anything. Life just unfolds moment by moment. And I just surrendered. And I had this profound trust, that life just evolves, and unfolds mysteriously. And you don't have to understand at all, that was a big thing. You don't have to understand that though. Because you will never understand all of life, you will never understand this incredible masterpiece that we are part of the end, it was fine, I was fine with it. I just had this deep trust, that somehow life will unfold. And I will always continue to exist as a soul or whatever energy level. So I didn't have a worry in the world. And that lasted almost for a week. And it was just amazing. Oh, my problems are gone. It was it was yeah, the most incredible experience that I ever could have imagined. And to get back to the practice of wanting an answer. And throwing it out there into the universe. That Spiritual Awakening was an answer to my burning question. At the time, I had become very spiritual. And I was already was energized. I felt better about myself. But what happened was, I felt like a spiritual island in my family. I couldn't connect to my family because they were not all that spiritual. And I knew I couldn't just preach to them. Well, it's this is how it is. And because it was my truth, but it doesn't mean that it's the ultimate truth. But who knows, you know, nobody can prove anything. I can't prove God exists. And I can't prove God doesn't exist. You know, it's one of those things that you believe what you believe. And you know, what do you know? But I felt very kind of isolated. And one day I realized, I don't have to put up with that. There's got to be an answer. And so I threw it out in the US into the universe. And I I do this thing where I follow signs, you can read about it in the book. And one day I had this deeper awareness and I'm like, Okay, that's a sign I got to follow this lead. And it was leading me to a book and once I read this paragraph, it took me through this whole process, this mental process of kind of analyzing some things from my past. And also it got me into this awakening. And basically the answer to my question, how do I connect at a deeper levels, more spiritual, conscious level of my family? And it was unconditional love. It was complete acceptance of my family members. They're all flawed. We're all flawed. That that's the Oh only way we can learn and evolve. It's through our shortcomings to our flaws and the Nadeen flaws. They're just imperfections, because that comes with being a human being. And I loved my family unconditionally, I was showered with an unconditional love. And I can see, I was made whole. That was the whole thing was made whole, I felt complete. And I could see that everybody was holed. Also, I could see it in my family members, anybody who I would run into in the supermarket, like it's, it's a weird, I can't even describe it. But I knew and I could see David Hall, complete already at that soul level. But the problem is, we live in our mental world, where there's all this inner conflict and these judgments and these limiting beliefs of how we think we should live life the best way and all that. But it's so flawed in prisons as really, but it's part of the whole human journey. But that Awakening was an answer to this burning question. So you do get answers, you just need to be really eager to get the answer. So then, how did your relationships with your family change? They would have been able to notice the way that you know, Mum was now things are a bit different did that? How did that sort of go? i To be honest, I hardly even really talked about it. During those days, I talked a little bit to my husband about it bit by bit because I it was such a kind of shocking experience that like, well, not even shocking, it was actually something that I recognized like, I remembered the state of being I had just forgotten about and like, how did I forget that this is another way of being but anyway, I couldn't find the words to describe what had happened to me, it took me a long time to figure out how to talk about it, and how to write about it. But basically, what happened was, I approached my kids differently I saw because I saw motherhood through completely new lens. And the lens was our children are born with their own purpose. They have to find their own purpose, and they have their own inner compass. to guide them, I realized I have my own inner compass, it's our intuition. It's listening to that own your inner voice that will guide you to life because your soul knows what you love what you're fascinated with what and that leads you to your purpose, just follow the path of inspiration, and you will find your purpose in purposeful life. And our kids have the same and has nothing to do with us really. It's not the way I defined motherhood being a good mom was like I said, you have to check the boxes to make sure they get a good education and you just invest in your family, you give, give give. But what I had learned was we all are responsible for our own happiness, we have to find our own purpose too. And raising kids is part of our purpose. That often there's more, there's more, and I knew there was more for me. And it's our own inner compass that will guide us there. And I realized our kids have their own inner compass, even though we still have to guide them in life when they're young. They know what they want in this lifetime. It's it often gets covered up that they know what they're passionate about. If the opening is there, if you if you let them and it might not look like high school, college, whatever. Yeah. Every kid has to follow their own path. And what we have to let go of is feeling like if a kid doesn't follow that path, that we were not good parents. It is the biggest BS in the world. Our kids are meant to follow their own path. And it might look completely different than what you had in mind because what you had in mind is likely has to do with what you want for for them because then you can feel good about yourself that you did a good job. Yeah, all we really have to do is our very best and they will find their path in life. But it's important that we as parents also create our own fulfilling life if we don't feel fulfilled, if you feel completely fulfilled with raising your parents, fantastic. But if you feel something is missing, I highly encourage anyone figure out what it is and add it to your life. Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, I love that. So they would all be at the age where they would be aware that, you know, mums written a book mums put a book out mums or you know, published author. Yeah, how do they feel about that? They, it's kind of curious. They, they like it, they kind of accept it, or actually, for a while, because it took me six years to write it. Basically, I had, I had the funny thing is I had already started writing my book before I had this awakening, because I had done so much work, where I love myself to simply pursue what excited me. And I started thinking about, Gosh, I want to write a book, I want to integrate all these wonderful ideas about spirituality and psychology that I get from all these different books, and integrate it into my own book, and then write about my own experiences and insights and whatever. So then after you know, my ego, shut it down many times, like you're not going to write a book, forget about it, who do you think you are, you're going to be a failure, you'll never succeed. You know, one morning, I had a deeper awareness, and I knew you are going to write this book, this is what you're supposed to do. So we started slowly figuring out what I wanted to write about. And then a year later, I had the spiritual awakening. And for a while I thought there is no way I'm going to write about this, forget about it, there is no way I'm going to stick to what I wanted to write about in my book, and forget about it. This is impossible. People will think I'm crazy if I write about this stuff. And lo and behold, of course, I started realizing no, you need to find the courage to, to write about it. So the whole process basically was six years, so much of my youngest kids life is like mom is writing a book mom is writing. They were waiting and waiting. And finally the book is published and this and that. And it's kind of interesting, because we have a lot of families in our neighborhood. And then just the other day, my 13 year old, came home and she said yeah, a friend of mine. She said, Yeah, her mom had to read your book. And she really liked it and like, Oh, that's great. You know, like, it's kind of weird. It's like in our community and and yeah, so yeah, they like they just now think it's normal that Mom Mom wrote a book and doing a podcast and now she's got an audio book coming out and she's getting into life coaching which is really my passion. So yeah, it's interesting definitely. Is it important for you personally, for them to see that you're not just a mum, you're not just you don't just exist exist for them. You're capable your own passions and, you know, achievements. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And what I what I realized during that awakening, and that's what I how I approach my kids now, like, you really have to sense what are you interested in? And listen to that. No. Yeah, we have a responsibility for ourselves and our kids one day when you know, they're adults, too. You do need to find actually take care of yourself. So, you know, if something is a hobby, and you know, it's not gonna make money, it might have to stay a hobby for a while you figure out how to, you know, pay the bills. And then over time, maybe you can see how you can make a living, you know. But it's very important to, to listen to that voice. And also, if you haven't figured it out yet, which is very common for 1618 year olds, like I want to do, you just trust you keep moving forward and trust, you will figure it out, you will keep trusting, just keep moving forward and just relax, you'll be fine. You'll figure it out. It's very important. Yeah, that that kids see that mom is not just mom, especially, I think, with having three daughters. If they ever want to have their own children, I think it's important that they will allow themselves also to not just be mom. And to figure out they're more than just mom. They're whatever they want to be however they want to feel that in. And it doesn't mean it takes away from being the best mom, you want to be. I think it adds I think it makes you even well, it makes you happier mom, you might not spend as much time like I spent time away from my kids, but they're older now. So it is easier, they're very independent. But I don't feel bad about it. Because I know it's good for them to spend time on their own figuring things out on their own. And I still spent plenty of time with them. And unhappier mom for it, and more fulfilled, and therefore also renewing more fulfilled as a parent, you actually give your kids a little more space to figure it out also, on their own. And I think it also shows that, you know, we're all responsible for our unhappiness, nobody can make you happy, you can't make your kids happy. You can make a happy for a day doing something fun. But do happiness, it really does come from within itself, fulfillment and purpose and meaning and only we ourselves can configure that out. Yeah, that is so true, isn't it? When you said before about kids not knowing what they want to do. I feel like over here anyway. The kids like my son, my oldest is 14. And they're already, you know, trying to decide the pathways for their, you know, their education for the job they want to do. And it's like, how can you possibly know at that age, what you want to do for the rest of your life, that is just an unreasonable thing to put on anyone. And I say to my son, you know, I've found my dream job when I was 35. You know, there's never, you're never gonna run out of time, you know, you're gonna go through experience in life, and maybe the thing you think you want to do, you start doing it and go, actually, this is not what I thought change to something else. So that, you know, there's there's no pressure to decide right this second. And that's something I'd love to see sort of change in schooling. I really think we need to have a cultural shift, Big time, big time and education, I see some of the shifts happening already. Because there's so many parents who say, we need to bring back the trades. You know, we're like, for so long, we have been preparing all these kids for higher education. But not all kids want to do higher education, they want to work with their hands, they don't, they don't want to dive into all these, these books and read and they're not all kids are meant to do that. And we have to change as a society really, and and put the same value on on a trades education and a four year college degree. Really, that's what's got to shift. And we also tell our kids that just keep moving forward, make the best decision at that moment. And just know that allow yourself to change your mind if there's a gift you can give yourself is to allow yourself to change course. If you get stuck like well, I want to be let's say I want to be a doctor and from a young age on and then you get older and you realize the reality of it is not really what do you want to do but now you've kind of painted yourself in a corner like I have told everybody for years, I want to be a doctor and then it becomes so hard to acknowledge you want to do something else because now you have to do maybe with family that's like but he was wanting to be a doctor. No, you want to be something else. So we tell our kids always be open minded and allow yourself to change course if you really feel this is not the right direction anymore. You know, and I do think it's just need more time. And they need to have more fun too. And more hands on classes. Yeah, they gotta bring the trades back into the classroom. You know, it's sorry that I'm seeing that shift a bit, but it needs to happen more. That's the thing. Like, you're always going to need someone to fix your roof or, you know, carpentry, you're always going to need people to create with the hands, you know, someone's got the toilet or Yeah, so yeah, that is a great saying some one of the ladies I had on my podcast said, we can't all be astronauts, we have to have a balance in life. Yeah, it's bad knowledge, and I've always found it fascinating. You say you're talking about how it's a different time for the kids. But then the parents like it's really hard to parent children at the moment. Because most of us depending on our age, we didn't have social media, when we were growing up. So it's like, how do you navigate that when you've had absolutely no experience of what it's like to be a teenager? And have that whole new world that you're dealing with? So I think that's something that's, it's really challenging for a lot of parents at the moment. And yeah, I'm so glad I didn't grow up with thank God. It's just a whole, just a whole extra thing you'd have to be worried about all the time. Like life was so simple. When I think back to my childhood and my teenage years. Absolutely, yeah, I think it's, it's a very challenging time for parents to be raising kids. Life, just even just just for adults, life has become so full and fast, are nervous, as soon as actually not wired to process so much information from the 24 hour news cycle, to social media, to all the emails. I always think our parents didn't get all those emails from the schools, you know, from teachers, from the principal, from, you know, the PTA and the fundraisers, and everything that comes our way, we have to process and it is so much more intense. And that's just for the parent. And now we have to manage our children and social media, and doing homework on their computers that we can't watch every second that they're on a computer, like how do we guide I will keep them safe. It's stressful. It's a lot. And we're the first generation of parents that has to figure this out. Our kids were guinea pigs. Yeah, really? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, and it's still developing exponentially. All the apps and all the ways that they can figure out how to get online and we won't even know about it. Yeah. And so it's, yeah, some, I don't know, ever thought that social media was a good idea for for middle schoolers. I don't know, but that it's not. Talking about your coaching that you do now, do you want to just share a little bit about that with this, if you know anyone's listening that thinks that this is something that they'd you know, benefit from? Can you share a little bit about what you do? Yeah, absolutely. Yes, thanks. There's just so many moms who kind of feel stuck and it often has to do with that guilt again, they they feel guilty for not being happy because their lives are good this and that. They feel guilty if they even think about taking some time to themselves, or or pursuing something. And what I do is making people aware of all their beliefs that are tied to what it means to be a mom and kind of waking up to how they're thinking and sometimes it has to do with the culture they grew up in. Like, I remember one mom who I think Her background was Vietnamese. And she said, In my culture, the family comes first always you always give to the family, the family is the center, you give, give, give. So it, it just was conflicting with her wanting to have time to herself to pursue something. She didn't even know what it was. But she said, like, I gotta make a change, because I just, I'm just so stressed and whatever, I'm just not not happy. And I know there's she had a few ideas of what she wanted to do, but she just struggled with the guilt. And once we started talking about a different perspective, like, well, how are you now when your kids need you? When your husband needs you? Are you just happy to, you know, be there for them? Or are you like, oh, my gosh, what do they need? Now? What is it now? You know, it's like, the last I'm always like, Oh, my gosh, I never have time to myself. So I told her, Well, what if we reframe it, and you set aside some time for yourself, and then be inspired and enjoy, really be in it and enjoy what you do, guess what's gonna happen. Then when you're present with your family, you're much more present. And then you don't feel so drained. Because you know, every week, you've got this time for yourself. And it's coming every week, and you do what you love. And you keep pursuing different things that maybe it'll shift over time. And then you can just be there for your family even more and more present and more positive. And once you started seeing that, she's like, Oh, no, I get it. Okay. Okay, that's compatible, okay. I can still, like, honor my culture, and honor what I need, you know, so it's always about finding the right perspective. That is healing, because we're often just not seeing it. Right. You know, because we have ideas and beliefs and limits, limiting thoughts. It's about uncovering those. And I, yeah, that's definitely passionate mind to help moms find the right perspective, and then help them pursue what they want to pursue. Yeah, that's wonderful. Good for you. That is just Yeah, it's really wonderful that you can pass that gift on for the, you know, that amazing experience that you've had, and then you can, you know, help so many other moms and, and then that helps, you know, it goes down the line. Like you said, before, we're all connected. Yeah, no, it's further, because I had to change my perspective. I felt guilty taking time. So I know what these moms are going through. So I know, and I know how hard it is to change your perspective. And to break these patterns. I know how hard it is. But I also know the rewards are incredible, not just for yourself, but for your whole family, your whole family will benefit once you become happier. everybody around you is going to feel it. And also another thing when mom is happy, kids feel it. And now, they don't have to feel any responsibility to like, make mom happy. Some kids are sensitive that way. Yeah, they feel kind of responsible. And they don't have to worry about mom anymore, too. I've heard about that, too. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point. It's always it's all good. You know, life might shift. Things might change. But it's always the fear of the change that holds us in place, but gradually integrate the changes. It can be so powerful. Absolutely. It's just it's finding that balance, isn't it? Like your your example of your client? You know, she's honoring what's important to her culturally, but then she's also honoring herself, which is so important. Yeah. Yeah. And getting that balance, right. And that'll be different for every single person. Exactly. That's the whole journey. But I do believe there's always a way in which we can gently integrate some changes. You don't have to make massive changes right away. You know, for some people, that's why they do or they quit their job and this and that, but most people can't do that. So I've done the way I've made it changes was gently integrating all the little changes over time and then, you know, you look back and it's it's a big shift, ultimately. Yeah, that's it. All these little, little tiny things add up to this massive, massive effect over time. Yeah. And then that makes it less daunting. Like you talk fear. Fear certainly holds us back, you know that. Oh, no, what if this doesn't happen or if this doesn't work, or you know, the what ifs that like you were talking before about, you know, we jump forward, we think about the future. But, you know, the only time we really have is, is the present. And there's, there's really no point in jumping forward. And we really only have now and, and what I also realized is, even though we want to make changes on the outside, like, we want to do something, do a hobby or start something, whatever it is, the shift always has to happen mentally, we have to shift our thinking. And sometimes it's a tiny little shift with our thinking. And you know, but then it starts to show on the outside and just a tiny little mental shift is huge, energetically you feel it, and then the world around, you starts to respond differently. It's a fascinating process, I've experienced it, all of a sudden, you need different people, you find yourself in different situations that actually support what you want to do. And it just opens everything up with just tiny little changes that you're making, basically, mentally, it's the mental shifts that you create, and then it starts showing up in your outfit and out for you know, in your world. Absolutely, yeah. Thank you so much for coming on today. Danielle, it's been so lovely to talk to you this. Wonderful, thank you so much for having me. I love chatting with you. Yeah, absolutely. I'll put the links for people to get in touch with you in the show notes. But do you have a website or somewhere you'd like to direct people to head to if they'd like to know more? Yes, the easiest one is inner compass. living.com. So inner compass living.com. And they can also reach me at inner compass. living@gmail.com . And if people want to know when my audiobook is coming out, it should be late April, early May. They can sign up for my newsletter that's on the website, and then they'll get my newsletters and a blog and whatever, they'll they'll be in the loop on the latest. So inner compass living.com Fantastic. Oh, wonderful. Look, good luck with it all. And I'm Yeah, excited to, to check out the audio book to because I mean, obviously I've read it on the page. But I think when you hear the person that wrote it, reading, it just adds a completely different dimension to it, you know? So yeah, I'll be excited to check that out, too. Yeah,

Zach Mander Australian comedian + announcer S4Ep103 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts In the second of my Father's Day special podcast episodes. I welcome Zach Mander, a comedian, radio announcer and father of 2 from Brisbane Australia. Zach has hosted national radio shows on stations such as 2Day FM and FOX FM and specialises in clever and offbeat content. He is the self proclaimed 'Bluey detective delving in to the much loved Aussie kids show and providing witty observations. If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission thanks to my APRA AMCOS mini online license. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes .....

Gina Graham US photographer + social worker S2 Ep77 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts In this final regular episode for the year I welcome Gina Graham to the podcast. Gina is a clinical social worker and a photographer based in Chicago USA and a mother of 2 boys. Growing up Gina was inspired by her photographer dad to experiment with taking photos, but didn't think that she could do it seriously. She dabbled with it in high school and fell in love with it, but put it aside to pursue a career in mental health . Gina studied and became a certified clinical social worker and specialised in treating patients with eating disorders and disordered eating. During a break from her clinical work after having her children Gina rediscovered her love for photography. Her style is very natural, soulful, emotive and raw. When it came time for her to return to her 'day job' she was looking for a way to blend her two passions, she wanted her photography to be a real and true representation and celebration of the unique and diverse feminine beauty in the world. Her two passions collided in her recent book Body Beautiful: How Changing the Conversation About Our Bodies Has the Power to Change the World which is a collection of conversations and photos of women and girls, around the topic of body image and self acceptance. ***This episode contains discussion around body image, diet culture + eating disorders.*** Gina - website / instagram / buy her book Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler. How mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. In this final regular episode for the year I welcome Gina Graham to the podcast. Gina is a clinical social worker and a photographer based in Chicago USA and a mother of 2 boys. Growing up Gina was inspired by her photographer dad to experiment with taking photos, but didn't think that she could do it seriously. She dabbled with it in high school and fell in love with it, but put it aside to pursue a career in mental health . Gina studied and became a certified clinical social worker and specialised in treating patients with eating disorders and disordered eating. During a break from her clinical work after having her children Gina rediscovered her love for photography. Her style is very natural, soulful, emotive and raw. When it came time for her to return to her 'day job' she was looking for a way to blend her two passions, she wanted her photography to be a real and true representation and celebration of the unique and diverse feminine beauty in the world. Her two passions collided in her recent book Body Beautiful: How Changing the Conversation About Our Bodies Has the Power to Change the World which is a collection of conversations and photos of women and girls, around the topic of body image and self acceptance. ***This episode contains discussion around body image, diet culture + eating disorders.*** If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. thank you so much for coming on, Gina. It's absolute pleasure to welcome you to the podcast. Thanks so much for having me out. And I'm excited to be here. Yeah, it's my pleasure. So you're in the United States in Chicago. Is that right? I am. I am. I'm actually in the suburb of Chicago. Yeah. So totally different day than your night actually, in your Yeah, well, in the next day at this point, so. Oh, it's cool. It's one of the fun things about doing these podcasts is talking to people from all around the world. It's just, I love knowing about what time it is and what your worth is, like. That's like, the two things that I find really fascinating. Right, right. Right. Well, our weather actually, we just finished up the most gorgeous fall, I think in the history of, you know, on record, it was like the most stunning beautiful change of colors. We had amazing warm temperatures. I mean, we were really very spoiled. And then you know, the frost always comes eventually. So we're definitely kind of hitting our cold time of year and it'll be it's you know, the temperatures have dropped and it'll stay cold in Chicago most likely until well into spring. So we're kind of hunkering down and getting out our winter coats and know that we you know, got away with longer weather much longer than we typically do so yeah, do you guys get snowed in um yeah we do we do we get a good bit of snow and we also get you know, typically in January and February like really brutal cold temperatures you know, high winds brutal cold you're probably are you on Celsius? Yeah with Celsius but like Yeah, yeah, I know we sometimes get temperatures that are you know, like single digits and Fahrenheit. So you're gonna be like, You know what in the in the negatives and we can even have wind chills below you know, below zero and Fahrenheit, which is really cool. Yeah, like minus 17. That is in Celsius. Yeah, that sounds Holy moly. Yeah, it gets it gets brutal. Gosh, we're already sometimes grumpy bunch that time of year I always tell friends you know, friends and family that live all around the country and in other in other parts of the world like Chicago is a great city to come visit but you may not want to come in January or February. Yeah. Oh my goodness. That's see I went when it gets wet our daytime here in winters probably. Hang on. I'm gonna say 13 Celsius. But what would that be for you guys? Probably like mid 40s. Right? Hanging? Fahrenheit? Yes, I 55 Roughly. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm whinge about that being cold. But I can clearly have nothing to do I think I would do well. I think I would do well in Australia. I think that sounds about right. Like once you get below 55. Why? Why go outside? That sounds about right. Yeah. Why I chose to live here is a whole long other funny story. But yeah. Good times, hey. So you're a clinical social worker, and also a photographer. So I, what sort of came first for you? What was the interest that grabbed you sort of first? Yeah. So that it's a it's a really great question. Because I would have to say that photography grabbed me first, when I was in high school, I actually, my dad, back in the 80s, actually, you know, did a lot of photography. So he was always kind of lugging his Nikon in his tripod, and, sorry, I have a dog that has to be by my side at all times. Hear him barking or whatever he is, he does not leave my side. So So anyway, my Dad Yeah, just was always doing photography when I was a kid. And I was kind of exposed to all of that. And then when I was in high school, I did take a photography class, and I just really fell in love with it. And it's interesting, because I think, you know, looking back on it now, you know, my, my teacher was very complimentary about, you know, just kind of the natural composition and kind of my eye for photography. But I think I just always thought maybe creative endeavors weren't really my thing. I have an a brother, who's one year older, who is an incredibly creative person. And so I think I always thought he was like the creative one in the family. Like there's only allowed to be one and it was him and so it couldn't be me and I had to find something else. So as much as I loved it at that time, it kind of fell by the wayside even though I was always the girl at the party that was like, you know, taking pictures on my camera at the time and And, you know, spent some time doing photography, but not really, even in college did some but, but not really seriously until later. So I actually, you know, had kind of some experiences that led me to, you know, the mental health world at an early and an earlier time in my life. And I just was so kind of blown away by the transformational kind of capacity and experience that can be therapy for people in mental health. And I kind of took a few different roads, when I was in college trying to decide, you know, what my major was going to be bounced around a little bit, and then settled on being kind of in the space of physical education and wellness and health, and then kind of stumbled into mental health and clinical psychology from there. So, in 2002, I graduated with my master's degree and as a licensed clinical social worker, and I've been doing clinical social work ever since then. So. So that was definitely, you know, kind of became my bread and butter career, you know, as a young adult very early on. And, and I've, and I've, you know, I took a short break, when my kids were kind of growing up for a couple years, I stepped away from a practice that I was in, but for the most part, I've been doing that ever since. And photography is kind of, then had a fun resurgence in my life a little bit later, which was kind of an exciting rediscovery of that medium. Hmm. Can you tell us a bit of how that did happen? How that sort of came back in? Yeah, yeah. So I was kind of, you know, like I said, I had taken a little bit of a break, when my kids were babies, I was kind of trying to juggle, you know, like life as a mom working in a very clinical, you know, very kind of demanding field at the time, I was in private practice work. And, you know, so it was just kind of me servicing these clients that had a lot of needs. And you know, it was a pretty high risk population, I've always worked, treating the field of eating disorders, and you can have a lot of medical complications and a lot of extra things, you kind of have to kind of keep tabs on from a medical perspective. And so I was juggling a lot at that time when my babies were small, and, you know, was just kind of increasingly able to work less and less because of difficulty with finding the right childcare. And, you know, my husband works in a job where he travels a bit and you know, commutes into the city, and sometimes it's gone long hours. And so, you know, it became obvious to me that, I just kind of felt ready to take a little break, I felt ready to kind of be home a little more and not try to do that juggle. So I was, you know, fortunate enough to be able to take a couple years, and step away from that work. And in that time, I was loving being a mom. But I think I kind of had a combination of, you know, just all of the emotions that gets stirred up when you're a mom, and you're raising kids and wanting to capture it and seeing how fast it goes. And then I think I just kind of started to get really curious about, you know, it's like, I think the expression is like the date, the years are short, but the days are long. And I had some like long days at home with two very active young boys. And I just kind of got curious about what I was interested in, that could be a part of that day, that could also be kind of meaningful. And so I decided to get a camera and just kind of, you know, play around a little bit, I kind of just point and shoot camera. And every time I would try to take pictures on my boys, everything was blurry, and I just couldn't get an image that I liked. And so I thought, you know, what, I'm going to just kind of get an official, you know, digital camera, and kind of teach myself how to use it so that I'm not always frustrated with the pictures that I'm getting. So you know, in that time, I just kind of started to explore it kind of really retaught myself the things that I learned about, you know, the basics of photography when I was in high school, except at that time, it was film and I was, you know, rolling film in the dark and learning that medium, that type of photography, and I had to kind of relearn how to, you know, be a digital photographer and the digital age. So, you know, it was just a lot of trial and error and playing around and getting excited when I started doing things that I thought, you know, were fun to look at or meaningful for me. And then over time, had friends kind of start to notice or other people would say, Oh, would you just come over and quickly take a picture of like, you know us for our Christmas card, and then it kind of turned into this sort of side hustle family photography gig that I never in a million years would have thought I was doing while I was on hiatus from this very clinical demanding kind of mental health role. So it was a really odd time for me because I was really all of a sudden introduced to this whole side of myself that I not only never knew that I had but was actually convinced that I didn't have and so it actually was really meaningful and beautiful in a lot of ways because I got to all of a sudden kind of blossom in an area of my life that now I just can't imagine not, you know, being a photographer and seeing the world the way that I've kind of taught myself to see the world. So, um, yeah, so that's so the photography kind of got rolled into all of it, then, you know, that's a great story. I'm glad you came back to it. Thank you with your photography, how would you describe the style of photos that you like to take? Yeah, um, I think that over time, um, I would say I definitely really wanted my photography to be emotive, I wanted people to look at a photo and, you know, feel something, I wanted it to sometimes be maybe even like, a little bit like raw or true to real life. And, you know, I kind of always felt like, if people kind of came away from something feeling like, you know, a photoshoot that I did in any way sort of offered a little glimpse into their soul or made them feel something in their soul, like the word soulful, just kind of kept coming up, when I wouldn't think about the type of work that I always aspire to me, right. Whether or not I land on that is a different story. But it's definitely always in my mind that, you know, something emotive. And, and I think that's, you know, kind of where I've landed in terms of photographing women, you know, I was doing some family photography for a while and sort of was doing a little bit of everything, right? Like, hey, you need headshots, I'll do it, you need family photos for a Christmas card, I'll do it you need, you know, pictures of your new baby, I'll do it. And so I was kind of like the jack of all trades photographer, which I think a lot of photographers start out doing that. But you know, I started to feel this tug, and this pole to go back into my clinical practice at the time. And so I was just kind of trying to figure out, you know, how do I juggle it all? I can't, the reality is that I can't. So how do I take the work that I love to do in the world, which is, you know, working with young girls and women and helping people recover from, you know, eating disorders, and body image and self competence and self esteem issues? And how do I also kind of have my photography still be a part of my life. And so, you know, I think I've kind of definitely moved towards blending the two of them together. You know, we can talk a little bit about the book that I published earlier this year, that is definitely kind of a blending of all of the things that I've done up to this point in my life. But I think I finally kind of came into this realization that I wanted my photography to really be a real and true representation of, you know, and celebration of the unique and diverse, feminine beauty that is in the world all around us all the time, that is each and every one of us, right. And so, you know, it became really important for me to not be photoshopping bodies, or having people look overly perfect. I just kind of wanted it to be real girls, real women just being themselves and for people to kind of look at those images and say, Gosh, that's so beautiful. And don't they have all of their own unique kind of ways of manifesting beauty in the world? So, yeah, I'd love that. Because, yes, there's a whole a whole element of particularly on social media these days that says that we have to be a certain size and look a certain way before we can be deemed and I'm putting air quotes beautiful. Yeah, that's something that you're really passionate about. Yeah, yeah, that's what a lot of my work has really been. I think, you know, when you look at my clinical practice working within the field of eating disorders, it's an incredibly complex mental health issue. And I think part of what you know, is hard about it, is this this reality that, you know, I think we can kind of think, oh, it's, you know, just kind of predominantly young, white affluent girls that want to be thin for social media or for their appearance sake, that end up having eating disorders, and that's not true. Nothing could be farther from the truth. But what we do know in terms of how the eating disorder pathology really can take root is that, you know, body image can be a huge trigger for that. And I think even outside of having a clinical eating disorder or disordered eating or eating issues, the React alidium, unfortunately, is that most girls and women who have been raised in sort of, you know, kind of modern cultures where we have any type of advertising media, you know, products that are sold to us marketing, social media, you know, most of us are walking around, just no matter how we look, no matter how much we weigh, no matter how, what are ages, you know, most of us are walking around, just not feeling beautiful, not feeling good enough feeling like there's something wrong with us or our bodies are things that we wish we could change. And, you know, having spent the better part of 20 years working with people who feel that way. But seeing all of their gifts and strengths and talents and things that they're doing in the world, and then not being able to kind of reconcile those things, it just always really broke my heart. And I thought, gosh, if I can just, you know, put a drop in the bucket of, you know, girls and women's seeing themselves more, you know, in a way that celebrates who they really are, and kind of try to have this conversation about why are we all buying into this culture that convinces us of all of these things that just simply are tearing us down and not having us, you know, feeling like we're, you know, comfortable living in our own skin? So you mentioned your book there. So you bought your book came out recently? And can you tell us or I can read the title, it's called body beautiful, how changing the conversation about our bodies has the power to change the world? Tell us about it. Yeah, so So the book really came about because, you know, like I said, I've got this clinical background, I've been doing this for a long time. And everyone that comes to see me their story is also unique. And everything that you know, that they kind of bring to the table has their own kind of personal struggle, too. But I found over the years in doing this work, there were there were kind of themes in tools and discussion points that I was hitting on time and time again, right, with girls and women around this issue. And so I kind of felt after 20 years of doing this, like I had a couple of things, maybe just share a couple of things that might hopefully be helpful, right? I mean, that's the beauty of being at something for so long, and hopefully accruing some type of knowledge base that you can hopefully share. And I really felt called to do that. I think, you know, one of the things that's started to get really exciting for me in my photography work was the fact that I could bring clients in that trusted me and knew me. And I could say, let's do a fun portrait session, and I'm going to show you that you're not as big as you think you are, you're not as ugly as you think you are, you're actually beautiful, and you actually, you know, have so many unique and special qualities that you can focus on instead of all of those perceived flaws that you're looking at in the mirror. So I would bring clients into my office, we would do a photo shoot. And then we would in therapy, go through the images together and talk about what they were seeing and have an experience of them. And then they could kind of take the images as a tool to remind themselves later of how they felt in doing that work, or what they have learned from those sessions. And I really just loved from a photography and artistic creative standpoint, the idea as a photographer of putting someone just one individual in the frame and capturing, you know, the real beauty to that person. And so the whole book project kind of started out because, you know, it was COVID at the time, and I was really, really busy with my clinical practice, you know, in the, in the States, as I'm sure you know, all around the world that need for mental health services just skyrocketed, and we were all just kind of home. So I was home, you know, seeing servicing quite a few more clients than I typically would on my caseload, and just in front of the computer on Zoom meetings all day long. And, you know, no one was hiring me for photography. And I was really missing my photography work, I was really missing the work that I do as a creative person in that space in my life. And I just kind of got this idea of you know, I love coffee table books, and I love art books, and I love anything that is kind of like a photo book. And so I thought, well, what if I just put together a book of images of just as many girls and women that I can photograph and, you know, maybe I would like throw in some quotes and make it really artsy. And it was really important for me that the book itself be kind of like art, right? is a testament to like, aren't we all our own unique version of art, like, you know, and so I have this like really kind of creative, artistic way that I even just wanted the book to be represented. And, you know, and so I would kind of talk to all of these girls and women that I was photographing, and I would say, Hey, listen, I'm primarily going to take Your photograph for this book that I'm doing, but in order to really get some like quotes and kind of have us both feel uncomfortable about what we're doing, I just want to ask you some questions about your relationship to your body, or your body image, or what do you think about the cultural pressures for girls and women, and they would sit down and tell me like an hour, or twos worth of a story. And, and there would be tears. And there would be so much that came out of these girls and women that I was so blown away at what they were telling me just freely needing to talk about with this. And I was recording those conversations hoping to get like a quote, right, yeah. And I came away from it, like, wow, I have like this whole story of this person. And yes, I have photographs of them. But the things that they would say I felt were so relatable, or so empowering, or so inspiring or impactful that I was like, gosh, this is what this book really needs to be about. So the whole project really took a pivot, and it became kind of a collection of art, and stories and quotes and information. And I do share some things about navigating the world with, you know, hopefully navigating with better body image and some things to think about, or some, you know, kind of some tips and some things I've learned over the years and during the work that I do, but it really is designed to be written not necessarily even by me, but by all of these brave and courageous women that shared with me, their experience of living in their bodies, in the hopes that no matter where someone's living, in what culture in what body size, and what, at what age, there's something there that they might be able to think about their own experience, because the book is really designed to kind of go through the lifespan, you know, as we get older, and our bodies change, and we age are all kinds of things are happening to our bodies that we have to navigate. And, you know, this issue of body image, or how we feel in our skin doesn't go away after a certain age. And, you know, I would talk to women who were in their 60s and 70s, you know, who were struggling with, the way that they looked or their bodies or their aging bodies. And, you know, I just thought it was really important to tell that story so that we could all kind of just start to get curious and ask ourselves like, Okay, what does this mean for me? And how am I doing with this issue? And what still impacts me? And is there anything I could start to take like little baby steps towards changing my relationship with myself and my body? And is there anything I can do? Maybe to change this conversation culturally? Is there anything I can do maybe to be a role model to younger generations of girls and women, whether I'm a mom or an aunt, or you know, a family friend of a young girl or whatever, just to kind of have everyone questioning? You know, what does it mean for them personally to be living in their bodies in our culture? And what could they do to hopefully feel a little more at home in their own skin? Huh? Yeah. And I mean, I don't want without giving away too many secrets in your book. What are some ways we can start to do that? Yeah, yeah, it's such a great question. I think first and foremost, I think we have to just kind of create some awareness for ourselves of like, where did we learn this? Right? What are the seeds that were kind of planted that took root for to this belief system that I do not live in a body that is good enough, or I need to change and I think everybody kind of has this mix of, you know, things that they've been handed by culture, and things that they've been handed by their family of origin or their story growing up, you know, whether it was being teased or being bullied. So I think some of it is kind of just really starting to parcel out, what were those influences? And what do you think about that? Now, you know, I think I think people can kind of really start to ask the question of, okay, culture handed me all of these ideals and beliefs and shoulds, and rules and thoughts and pictures and images. But do I actually agree with that? Do I actually accept that is that something that I would want for my daughter, or, you know, someone that I love and care about? Is that the same expectation that I put on my friend? I think really trying to find little ways of standing up to diet culture is really important. I think there's a lot of chatter, you know, about just kind of all of this stuff that we've come to accept as part of our life and diet culture, right. Like we talk about our but we women sit around and we talk about our bodies, we talk about what we're eating, we talk about what we don't like, and we talk about what diets we're on and we talk about what exercise we're doing, and we talk about whose bodies we think are better than ours and we're so self deprecating and I just want us to just if nothing else, stop ourselves from having those conversations. You know, out and kind of start to think, Wow, this is not really positive or empowering for me to be talking this way about my body. And it's probably not helping the people that I'm talking to feel better about their bodies, and anyone that's overhearing it probably might also not feel good about their bodies, right. So, you know, the whole, the whole. The whole, like, genesis of the book really kind of came from the fact that I was at this photography conference, and I was having the most amazing weekend, the most amazing, I was so inspired. I was on cloud nine, I was thinking all these creative thoughts, and I was in this quiet, you know, cafe in the morning, and these two women came in with the only other two women in the in the room at the time, they were having this really, you know, kind of toxic, nasty conversation about their bodies at the table next to me. And we were the only ones in the whole place. And so I kind of heard the whole thing. I was like, Oh, bummer to hear that. Right? Why are we doing this to ourselves? Why do we do this? Yeah, yeah. Can we start? Yeah, it seems when you say that it reminds me of a conversation, I've got some people, some people that I know in my life. So I'd say we're in my life, but they are at the moment, doing challenges, like for the gym, to only eat a certain amount of calories, and they have to exercise this much. And when they talk about it, I just have to switch off because I came through a period where I worked in a gym and went through in, you know, treating my body not very well not eating properly. And so that's very triggering for me. But now, and but it actually also makes me want to say to him, why bother? Because if you're treating yourself like this limiting, restricting yourself for eight weeks, in eight weeks time, you're gonna go back to how you were and then you're going to get cross with yourself, because we can't sustain that. You know, and that's very toxic. The gym is an incredibly toxic environment. Yeah. And so when they talk about it now, I just think, Oh, God, gills, like, I want to say to them, like, like one of them said to me the other day, how many calories do you think's in a mandarin? You probably say Mandarin over there. And it was like, who cares? Like it's a piece of fruit like, this is where people's heads are at. And it just, I think that's how I used to be I used to have my little app, and I'll be counting calories. And I'd be out for tea. When I when we didn't have smartphones. I didn't, I was just a normal phone. And I had to message my husband and say, Can you look up on this calorie app, which dessert has the least calories so I can choose which one to have, you know, that incredible culture of not just enjoying yourself, but being so so preoccupied with it. And it's a horrible place to be it really it? It is a horrible place to be. And I think so many girls and women are tortured by this way of life in and I use that word very intentionally. You know, and, and I am not against health. I am very clear in the book, you know, I actually interview and talk to a health expert who had her own really incredible story of like, kind of like crushing it at the gym, right? Like she was like the most successful person at the gym, because like on paper and her weight and her weight loss and her metrics and what she was lifting and what she was eating. She was like crushing it. And everybody was like just putting her up on this pedestal. Meanwhile, she was depleted, she was in adrenal fatigue, she was miserable. She was hungry all the time. She was exhausted. Yeah, right. And so you know, I make it really very clear to anyone who was listening and who, you know, gives a fig about what I have to say that I think health is incredibly important. And so when you kind of look at that example, it's like, no, we actually need to be eating more fruits and vegetables. So if you're eating a fruit, let's kind of first of all, like, let's talk about do you have, you know, like, like, do you get enough of the right behaviors to promote health and wellness? And if you're making healthy choices, your body's going to go where it naturally is designed to go at that stage in your life? You know, given all of the other factors and can we be okay with it? Because it's actually a far more freeing enjoyable place to live. Like, I think if you were to ask most women, here's all the list of desserts, which one is the least calorie? Like and then to ask them, Is that also the one that you would enjoy? Or is that the one you actually want? Most? saying no. Right? Yeah. Honestly, like, I'm 46 years old. I don't know where it's going. I feel like I should still be 27 like life is moving. It's too short, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think we all kind of have these reminders, if we're looking for them that like, hey, life is short. It's okay. It's also hard. like Life is short, and it's hard. So can you give yourself a break, and let yourself enjoy the dessert that you want to enjoy. You don't have to eat all of it. If your body's telling you, if you're eating intuitively, you might not even want all of it, or slowing down and being mindful and eating intuitively, you might get halfway through that desert and say, I'm actually full. And I really enjoyed that. Right? Um, or you might eat it on say, That was lovely, and then move on with your life. Right? Yeah. And I think I think the diet culture will tell you, if you do that, you're going to be so overweight, you're going to be so unhealthy and all these terrible things are going to happen. And the reality is diet culture kind of sets us up for the opposite, right? deprivation, deprivation, deprivation, to your point, things we can't maintain and sustain. And then we drop it. And then we don't persist in asking ourselves like, what are the health promoting behaviors that might actually get me closer to where I want to be? Right. So from a medical standpoint, we mess up our metabolism. So that's why most diets fail metabolically, we throw ourselves you know, this you worked in gym you Oh, you know, like, we throw our saw our bodies into chaos and disarray, because we're not taking care of it. But culture was a Oh, good job, you lost weight. You said, I lost it by being miserable, and depriving myself and it's going to come back on because I'm not changing my behaviors. I'm focusing on the number. Right, yeah, it's that external validation. Like you said about that lady. That was she was the best at the gym and going awesome. It looks great from the outside. But yeah, the inside wasn't going so great. And I think that's yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of people listening that can relate to this. Because there's, I feel like, at the moment, there's a really big movement on social media to destroy this dark culture and to change the way that we think about food. And I don't know, the other day, so we're recording this in the middle of November, the heroin chic sort of things, this through the media now. It's like, oh, really, are we really going to go there? Again, like these people that don't eat, they have like cigarettes for lunch? And, you know, to look a certain way, because one particular industry wants, you know, them to, like, it's just so damaging. I know. And that actually, I mean, look, I I've been doing this for a lot of years. And I mean, I came up in that generation. So I'm very familiar with that body type in that messaging. And not a lot shocks me, I have to say when it comes to the things that we see in media, but that actually took my breath away for a minute when I was seeing that there was a particular publication that had posted, you know, this article that was saying, like, curves are dead and heroin chic is back. And I thought, you know, I actually had a couple of people messaged me, because I reposted kind of in shock and horror and outrage, and I had a couple of people messaged me, like, is that even real? And I'm thinking I agree, right? Like, in this day and age did did a journalist in a in a fairly sizable publication, actually, seriously post that I mean, in the midst of the opioid crisis that we're having, right. And in the midst of, you know, everything that we are really coming to understand about the importance of size, inclusion and diversity and all of the things that we've been working so hard for, are we now going to have a couple of news outlets post a trend about heroin chic for our bodies and get it like status back and I just was like, heartbroken. So yeah. If anything, it just kind of galvanized me even more about this book, and the messaging behind it. And the work that I do with my photography to say, you know, enough is enough, enough is enough. You know, because eating disorders, you know, outside of, you know, suicide do have the highest mortality rate of psychiatric illnesses and they are very dangerous and I think just even outside of that women walking around depriving their bodies and not taking care of their health is a crisis. So yeah, yeah. Totally crazy. Yeah, just shifting tech slightly. You mentioned before that your two boys and only boys now, so I have a 13 year old and a 15 year old. Yep. I'm in a house full of boys. I don't Muay Thai, clinical practice for you too. Oh, my gosh. We could talk all day about that. Yeah, I kind of joke in my clinic. Got practice I've raised you know, I raised a lot of girls over the years, but technically I am a boy mom, even my dog is a boy. It's all boys. Oh, do you? Did you have brothers growing up? Or you? Yeah, so I actually have one brother. He is one year older. Yes. You did say that earlier. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So we're kind of I think, I think, you know, here in the States, I think that's referred to as being the Irish twins, because we are literally one year apart almost to the day. So that's interesting. But, but it's funny, because when I was in high school, I mean, I had like, some really amazing girlfriends and close girlfriends. My whole life, I've always, you know, been lucky to have some very special girlfriends in my life. But I just, like, always felt really comfortable hanging out with the guys, you know, I had a ton of guy friends. So I think having a brother and like, you know, just kind of in a lot of ways throughout high school and college being kind of like one of the guys or that girl that was just always like friends with all the guys that had the girlfriends that the guys all wanted to go out with, like, that was me, right? Like, I was like the net friends. And like, I had all the really cute blonde girlfriends that everyone wanted to date. And that was like, that was like my life. And so I just was always really comfortable around, you know, the guy. So now I'm like, move with me and the guys, you know. And so as you know, the World Cup is coming up. So that's what we're starting to go how like, it's all of a sudden going to be like soccer locked down. And this is just all we do is watch sports and soccer and talk about soccer. So I have to kind of sometimes get my head in the game and be like, Yes, I have to pretend to know who these players are and all these things. Yeah, on that I'm gonna dampen the mood a bit on the soccer. How do you feel about where it's being held? And, you know, the ramifications of being in a country that doesn't treat women very well? Yeah, that's a yes, I know. And honestly, I, I, I feel like I've, I've not been following closely along with it. So I do kind of want to, you know, reserve too much comment. I think that I know, there's been a lot of controversy. I know, there's been a lot of, you know, just questions as to what's really going on, you know, in the inner workings of FIFA and so, you know, yeah, I don't know, it's gonna be really interesting to watch and to kind of see, but yeah, I think I think that we are definitely at a time historically, where I think it's really important for women to kind of champion other women all across the globe in any way possible. Right. And I just, you know, I know there's all parts of the world where there are things happening against women and for women that is not honoring the dignity and the spirit of women and it's truly heartbreaking. And I think it's really doing a disservice to our planet. I think that you know, women have such a incredible nurturing you know, kind of differently creative way of being in the world and I think I think kind of the the, the surgence of women to kind of come out and say, you know, we really need to kind of fight up and stand for you know, stand up and fight for you know, our rights and the rights of other women is really important right now. Absolutely. Because yes, there is a lot there's a lot of going on particularly like you know Iran and Afghanistan off the top of my head but I'm sure there's a lot going on in a lot of other places that we don't see on the New Zealand day too so yeah. question that I like to talk to all my moms about is the concept of mum guilt. Or Mum Mum guilt so that was a really bad attempt. Mom guilt minute. Yeah. How do you feel about that? Concept and the topic? Yeah, my mom guilt so mum guilt. Um, yeah, it's interesting. I, I mean, find me the mom that doesn't, you know, experienced this to some degree. I just, it's interesting because in my mental health work, I talk a lot with my clients about how the interesting thing is that we're truly like cave for If cave people living in this modern world, right, like our world has evolved in this incredible way, but like our bodies, and our brains have not caught up with it and have not kept pace. So there's a lot of things that I think happened psychologically, for the human race right now in modern culture that actually is kind of like trying to reconcile sort of these primitive parts of the brain are these primitive ways that the brain operates. And then like our kind of modern culture, and I think, mom guilt is kind of an interesting one, because I sort of wonder if that isn't a part of that, right? It's like, if you think about how the survival of our species literally is dependent on Mothers not only giving birth to the babies, but nursing them, nurturing them, feeding them caring for them, so that they can go on and propagate the species forward. So it's interesting when you think about like, Is mom guilt, almost one of these things that is hardwired into us that we're like, supposed to feel so that the species doesn't die out? Right? Yeah. And so I think so I think that, you know, it's interesting, like, it's so primal and primitive, like if we didn't have mom guilt, and we didn't feel tethered to our kids, no matter where we were, like, who would be taking care of the kids, you know, what I mean? So, I mean, really, because if you look at, you know, culturally, at least in sort of modern Western culture, you know, my generation is the first generation where I feel like, dads kind of have a very active part in sort of the upbringing and the rearing of their kids, right, the generations prior to us that were very well delineated gender roles. And so up until very, very, very recently, like right now in human history, if moms weren't feeling mom guilt, the children wouldn't be thriving. Right? Yeah. And that's a biological thing. So I think that we're just kind of trying to figure it out of women, right? It's like, I biologically primally primitively feel so tethered and kind of needed by my kids, and I want to be there. And I feel like I'm needing to be there. And I'm reconciling the fact that maybe I can't, I can't be there all the time. Right? Like, I literally don't have live in a village with my children around me all the time. And we don't go any farther than like these five huts. Yeah. So we have to as modern moms, we have to venture away from our kids. Some of us are in situations where financially we have to work, we have to be in the workforce, right? Some of us want to be in the workforce, some of us choose to stay at home, and raise our children and have the financial, you know, kind of benefits and wherewithal to be able to make that choice. But it still might not be good for us to be there all the time. Because we still might need to go out and pursue our own, you know, our own endeavors, our own, you know, friendship circles, our own things. And so I think it's really interesting when you kind of look at this idea of mom guilt, because, you know, I know, I know, everybody kind of grappled with it to some degree and struggles with it. But I do think it's kind of rooted in something very primitive that we need to kind of, just try to understand from the perspective of, you know, maybe looking through that lens, looking at it through that lens, but also giving ourselves permission to, you know, continue to kind of pursue whatever it is we need to pursue, or we want to pursue in the world with with maybe a little less guilt, you know, because, yeah, guilt is such a heavy emotion, you know? Absolutely. And I think you're definitely right. We do need something else other than our role as mothers and fathers. Because I'm pretty sure we did lots of things before we had children, we felt we fit lots into that time, you know, now we've got the children, but we still probably have things that we want to do. And, you know, some of us are fortunate enough to be able to do that, like whether it's, you know, we've got the time, we've got the resources or the way, just the way, our you know, our circumstances are, but I'm sure there's a lot of people that do want to do things and can't quite make it work, which would be very frustrating. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like you know, I was I was, you know, like I said earlier, I was lucky that I, you know, was able to kind of take a few years off from my clinical practice when I needed to, I was kind of doing that juggle, and that hustle of all the things when my kids were babies and trying to figure out that stage of life with working. When I did take time off. I was, you know, such a, I was so kind of kind of fortunate to be able to be a very present mom. You know, and involved mom and in those years and so, now that I've shifted to being more involved with my work writing this book having different, you know, interests and passions outside of raising my kids, I would say that I personally am not in a season of my life, where I'm feeling an excessive amount of mom guilt, it's a little bit different. I think with teenagers, it's, you know, they have just very different needs of your, your, your presence and your focus and your your time and your energy. And so that's, I'm at a season of life where I'm just trying to figure out the trickiness of that, right, you know, and so, if I like, miss that little window, and then it's gone, you know, because we're on the same room for a while, or, you know, they're kind of out doing something or whatever, you know, I'm kind of at this stage of life, where I see how quickly it's all going and I can count, you know, with, with both my kids the number of years, they'll still be in this house on one hand with less thing you know, and so to me, that's, I think it's less about guilt, and just more about really wanting to double down on making the most of the time that we do have, because, you know, from from from my kids, it's a very busy stage of life, and everybody's going in lots of different directions. And the time that we do have all together that's kind of meaningful quality of time, just feels like it's constantly slipping through my fingers. So it's less of a guilt and more of kind of a melancholy a little bit and sort of a bittersweet, you know, reckoning of the reality of time. So, yeah, now I can definitely relate to that. I've got a almost 15 year old and a seven year old, so Oh, yeah. It's interesting. I want one to Well, I want them both to stop growing up, that would be nice. But the needs, the needs that they require are incredibly different. And it's, it's sometimes a very tricky juggle. Because yeah, you're right, when with those teenagers, you only get a limited time when they're available to you, I suppose. So. Be ready at the same time as gratiae with their presence. Okay, in Australia, what age do kids learn how to drive a car? I think we do come up if it's 16 or 17, six, okay. So you're not quite there yet. In the states where I live in Illinois, when you're 15. You can be learning to drive a car. Yeah. And you get your license when you're 16. So so I'm teaching my 15 year old how to drive right now. Which is, so I think, for me, the predominant emotion, going back to the question about manga isn't guilt, it's fear, right? It's like straight up anxiety and fear. Like my kids about to be on the road, he's on the road with friends who already have their license. They're out in the world, you know, when they kind of talk about like, bigger kids bigger problems, and having worked in mental health for teenagers for 20 years. I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I think the predominant mental health issue for myself is less about guilt and worry about anxiety. Just straight up, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not looking forward to that stage. I'm really not. I'm really not. Because there's, there's a bit of a culture. We live in a country, sort of country area. And there's a bit of a culture about boys in cars, and, you know, driving fast and challenging each other and taking risks and all that sort of thing. So definitely not looking forward to that phase. But I think Alex is he's got his head screwed on right he's gonna be pretty right I think. I'm sure yes. Yeah, so the other thing that I really liked to talk about is this identity, so the way that we see ourselves and perhaps how that might have changed when you became a mother, did you sort of go through any sort of big shifts? Yeah, um, I mean, definitely, I think there were, like, right off the bat. So many events and things that just felt so deeply powerful for me that it you know, you just don't know to expect it you just think oh, I'm going to be a mom and you know, it's going to be great or it's going to be whatever it's gonna be, but like, you know, the things that really kind of knock your socks off, right? That just completely make you be like, Wow, I can't even believe I just experienced this or I experienced that feeling or whatever. So I definitely think, you know, becoming a mom really changed me in a lot of ways. It's, it's interesting because, you know, I think I am a bit of a kind of, naturally sort of perfectionistic sort of controlling type of person, and personality. And so, being a mom has really forced me to look at, you know, some of the things kind of in that shadow for me that I needed to kind of continue even, you know, 15 years later to just try every day, to kind of grow up myself a little bit like, my kids are kind of growing me up a bit too, in terms of like, faith and patience and things that you know, I'm trying to learn, I think that it is easy to feel that mothering and motherhood is so all consuming in so many ways, right? You have like the all consuming emotion you have the all consuming, especially when they're little all consuming need of like, literally your body in every last ounce of your energy and your whole kind of world does, especially in those early years get gets so caught up in the the role of mom or mum. And you know, and I think that it is it was interesting, I'll say, for me personally, it was interesting for me to kind of start to get curious about like, Okay, I love this, but like what else? You know, I love this, but who else? What, where else do I need to grow as a person? You know, I, I was kind of thrilled to get back into my work as a clinical therapist, because I think it just really drove home for me that we're all kind of like these little pie charts, right. And that was a big part of my pie chart was, you know that I'm a helping person and I have this skill set. And I have these kind of natural inclinations to help people in this way. And then photography became this other part of my pie chart, right. And then I've had other life experiences outside of being a mom that just happened in my 40s That made me really need to grow in my faith and my spiritual relationship and kind of caused me to really stop and question, you know, what do I really believe? And how do I want to live? And what are the areas of my life where I want to continue to grow just as a person outside of being a mom, just to be a, you know, a person who is constantly evolving and learning and growing and changing and not stagnating? Right. So I think, you know, there's been a little bit of all of that, for me, I think, you know, the, the fun surprising piece for me was that I think it was through becoming a mom that I was finally able to realize that I was a creative person. And that's just been the most beautiful gift in my life, right to kind of go through life with young boys doing creative things with them. I mean, we used to, like, you know, paint all the time. And we you know, we're redoing our basement one year, so we just kind of had like, you know, unfinished walls, and we just, like started painting big murals on the walls. And I just really got so into creative thinking, creative, living, creative being and of course, my photography was a part of that, but it's bigger than that, for me now, and I just love living life through that lens. And I think motherhood kind of birthed that for me. You know? It's interesting, you say that I was talking to someone the other day for a podcast, it said almost the same thing. was almost like having children gave them permission to let that creative side come out of them that they might have been holding in. Yeah, yeah. It's really good. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, it for sure. Did that for me. And I think, you know, part of the thing that's hard, you know, and being a mom and being an or being a parent, or just being a busy person who is also a creative is like kind of finding time for all of that, you know, and so I think you know, really kind of reminding myself that you know, it's okay to make that a priority and it's okay to set aside some time for that. And if there isn't time for that in certain seasons for whatever reason, how can you still be a creative being in the world right? I mean, as mothers we are inherently creative, we created babies we created life. Yeah, we are all we are all creative beings. So so that very much kind of got switched on. All those lights got switched on for me. Wow, that's awesome. That's really good. With your creativity and in your book that you've made in the work that you do, is it important to you that your boys see that and see that you are capable of creativity outside of what you do with them as a mother? Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I think I think they are probably constantly underwhelmed by me, and there's like, not a thing I could do that would be interesting or noteworthy. I mean, actually, I think they would go like the other way and say that, like, everything I do is actually cringy. And embarrassing. And I stop just even being in the room. Because it's so embarrassing. But but it but it really is important to me, I think, first and foremost, you know, like I said, we're kind of, you know, I have two boys that are kind of naturally athletically inclined, and, you know, my husband was an athlete. And so I kind of always want to remind them, like, hey, you know, we all have all five to Earth. And even though you're so aligned with, you know, your athletics and the sports that you love to do, like, don't forget that you used to really love to draw, don't forget that you used to actually really love to paint or you like, picked up musical instruments, when you were little or learn to, you know, play something for a time. And so, I think having my life having lived really well into my 30s, not thinking I was creative, it was almost, I felt like, you know, I kind of looking back on that just sort of feel sad at the thought that like, I wouldn't have been able to kind of be in touch with those parts of myself that now give me so much incredible, like inspiration and motivation and, and are such a part of my day to day life that I do want them to kind of see, hey, you know, you can have lots of different sides. And creativity is something that, you know, maybe mom does from time to time, or we do as a family or whatever, and like, you know, that they can always come back to those things or explore those things. You know, I'm a big believer that, you know, as you go through life, it is important to keep kind of growing and changing and learning new things. And it's kind of that, you know, fixed mindset, or open mindset or growth mindset type of thing, where it's like, you know, I think, you know, showing them like to just kind of always be open and have a growth mindset that, hey, you might not know how to do watercolours, but if you're interested in it, like you can certainly, you know, give it a try. In terms of the book, you know, it was really interesting, I do feel like, I was kind of able to recognize that the boys were kind of putting that together a little bit at the time that that book was launched, and we did a local launch, and it had a really good turnout. And it was kind of neat to see them be able to recognize that I had done something that hopefully is meaningful and kind of giving back. And it was very important for me to role model that for them, you know, I dedicated the book to my boys, even though it's a book about women's body image issues. And then I did that very intentionally, because I just really, so deeply want them to know, if you feel called or pulled in any direction to do anything. Go for it and do it and don't hold back. And you know, they, they did kind of see the blood, sweat and tears that went into that. And they did kind of get the behind the scenes of kind of what it took out of me and where I had to sacrifice in my life to make that happen. And all of the steps that I had to take to get there. And I was really proud that they were able to kind of see that model through the work that I had done. So yeah. Now that's really important. And I think when you're talking about including boys in things, like there's two points to that, I think it's important to note that any sort of eating disorder or disordered eating can happen to anybody. It doesn't just fit. Absolutely. But also I think it's really important that possibly the the hand that men have had, in creating this world, that women are so judgmental of themselves. And perhaps if they weren't doing that he might help us a little bit. Yeah, putting that in a nice way. But you know what I'm absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And I do think there are, you know, it was hard for me to kind of look at that project through, you know, the lens of just kind of one gender, because I don't believe that my overall messaging is just about one gender, right. And in treating eating disorders, I certainly have seen and treated my fair share of boys and men with eating disorders and body image issues and their issues are just a little bit different. It's like, you know, there's kind of a different approach that you know, I would take or a different way that we kind of spin it I did think it was important to just kind of speak to the very specific cultural experience of God. Throwing up female. Yeah, yeah. And where that landed, but yeah, for sure. It can, you know, the insecurities or the the kind of Hey culture handed me this and, you know, now I don't know if that's really working for me can apply to all of us in some way, shape or form so yeah, cultural norms, that's something that I find interesting, I sort of, as I do this, I've been doing this podcast for 18 months, roughly. And as I've gone through, I sort of find these interesting threads that often come up. So then I add them into, like, the permanent thing that I like to talk about. And the cultural norms is something that I find really interesting. And we did talk briefly, we did sort of mentioned about, you know, this is the first generation where the dads are really involved, was your mum of that era, were mums had to just be at home, look after the family, or was your mum able to, you know, get her own interest and do our own interests and have our own outlet as well? Yeah, so my, my upbringing, I think I kind of have a, you know, generation that can kind of take the best of, you know, kind of both sides of that equation. In terms of my upbringing, you know, my mom was very much of the generation where, at least where I grew up, you know, most of the moms were stay at home moms. My mom was a teacher before, you know, my brother and I were born and when we were little, and she, you know, kind of did some work when we were little, but she's a very, she's, she is a very gifted writer, you know, but my mom, my mom is just so great. And that she has, you know, she, she has this spirit about her, she has this very kind of feisty spirit about her. And so when we were growing up, she was very involved, she was incredibly nurturing, she was always, you know, kind of helping us with whatever we needed and involved with our sports in school and all that. But she also, you know, kind of modeled that, hey, I'm gonna go out with my friends. And we're gonna go, you know, for doughnuts every Friday morning, or we're gonna go out and play golf, and she used to kind of go play rounds of golf. And, you know, I'd be, you know, we'd all be at the pool with our moms all off playing golf, like the whole day. No, so she definitely and you know, she always love to have a good party and have lots of great friends. And, you know, so my mom, I think very much, you know, kind of modeled for me, hey, you know, just because, you know, I'm here at home, you know, most of the day, and I don't work outside of the home right now, there are all these things that I want to go and do an experience. And, you know, my dad actually was, in the medical field, my dad was a dentist, and he had his own practice. And so I, I was kind of able to also have modeled for me through my dad, the importance of, you know, the importance and the challenges of being self employed. So I think that always really impacted me, you know, I would kind of see the benefits of him being self employed and being his own boss, but I certainly would see, like, the hard work and like that, the harder aspects of that, I don't think it's a coincidence that, you know, I kind of very early on, even when I knew I wanted to work in mental health knew I wanted to be in private practice, because I kind of knew I wanted to, you know, kind of call the shots and have, you know, be self employed if, if at all possible. So, so I kind of had that, you know, modeled for me on both sides. And I think, you know, my family is very kind of, you know, my family of origin. My parents and my brother are very supportive of like, you know, hey, like, if you got a dream or something, go for it, you know, like, don't let life kind of pass you by without, you know, kind of pouring yourself into something creatively or something that you feel called to do. I mean, my dad is, you know, 75 in two weeks and up in like, you know, last month he was on a on a racetrack in Texas for the support races for the IndyCar Series and he loves like racing karts, so he's still at 75 out chasing his dream of being a racecar driver. So in my family, there's no shortage of hey, you know, if you want to make something happen, do everything in your power to try to make a go of it. So, you know, but also from my mom very much like the loving nurturing support side of that, too, so, hmm, it sounds pretty ideal. Yeah, thank you gave you that. That awesome start. That's great. Good luck. Dad, I hope he keeps doing it. I love that so you've got the book yet now, we I'm really excited about the book, I hope that, you know, there's something in there that speaks to girls and women, you know, at some level in some way, I just hope it's kind of inspirational and meaningful. Yeah, but the launch of it's been really exciting. Now I'm kind of in this place where I get to go and just kind of enjoy it being done, because it wasn't you forever, but also just enjoy being out in the world, right. So I'm kind of doing some local book events, or, you know, I may kind of plan some things for 2020, we're 2023 Sorry, where I, you know, I'm kind of partnering up partnering up with different female local businesses or different bookstores are different things just to kind of talk to people about the book and its contents and, you know, share a little bit more about it. You know, one of the things that's been really fun for me, and having done the book is this idea that I really want to kind of double down on, you know, through my clinical work helping girls and women specifically with their body image issues. So I'm kind of really have been kind of crafting and creating what I'm calling the body beautiful set series or sessions, and they're really just going to be kind of time limited therapy sessions with me, where we're going to set aside a certain number of sessions. And we're going to just kind of go through the nuts and bolts and nuggets of trying to live in the world with more positive body image. And some of that can kind of track off of the book, I've almost created kind of like a workbook or sort of PDF that, you know, if people are working with me in these series, they can kind of go through and even if they have an outside therapist, or they circle back to it later, you know that it just kind of reminds them of you know, some of this work that they want to do to have a better relationship to their bodies. And those sessions will include a photo shoot, which I'm super excited to do, and then we therapeutically can kind of walk through the images and what they're seeing and, and make sure that they can kind of resonate with something about it being beautiful or positive. And then in addition to that, I'm just really excited to get back into doing some more of my photography. You know, I think it's really important that we debunk the myth for women that we can like do it all simultaneously. I think it's really toxic for women to just kind of look and be like, Oh, look at her, she did the same, she did this thing. She's doing this, she's doing that, like she must be able to have this magic secret sauce that, you know, she can credit juggle all of these things. And, you know, the reality for me in the last, you know, now, you know, two over two years is that I had to backburner a lot of things in my life in order to still be a mom and still have my clinical practice and write this book. And so there are areas of my life that I've kind of missed out on a little bit that I'm really wanting to get back to. And my deep love of photography is one of those things, you know, my my kind of side hustle of photography business, you know, I was writing the book and I was like flexing all these new muscles as an author and writing this book and working on this project. And even though there's photography in the book, my actual photography, business muscles kind of atrophied a bit and so, you know, I really am excited to hopefully continue to grow my photography work I really want to specialize specifically in portraiture, celebrating anything having to do with female beauty and empowerment. So I call these sessions portrait her and they are just custom special photo shoots. It's really it could be like milestone, it could be maternity motherhood, you know, so the last year of high school here in America is like senior year so senior portraits are things that we do in the States, you know, when it's your last year of high school before you maybe go away to school or go to your job or whatever you're going to do so senior portraits, empowerment, you know, sessions, you know, so I just really want to kind of be able to focus in on my photography, I found myself drawn back into those photography books that first inspired me to write the books to begin with, I'm kind of playing around with you know, different cameras that I haven't had a chance to play with in a while different lenses and I just some really feeling hungry to be an artist in that way again, and kind of have a fresh body of work there. So I'm hoping that in 2023 that kind of takes back off and I can be creating more work there. But you know, it's always a juggling act. I mean, I definitely feel like you know, time is always what is in the Most short of supply for any and all of us, right so you know, I certainly wish I had more time to devote to you know, the creative artistic pursuits. Well, you never know. I'm sure we all do you awesome, so your website is life lens and love.com Yeah, awesome. And you're active on Instagram. That's where I found you. You're on. Are you on Facebook or any other of the social medias? I'm I am on Facebook. Not that well. On I have a I have a page on Facebook it primarily Mitch matriculates from my Instagram feed. I've not been very good about checking it on Facebook for quite some time now. But I've gotten off the off the chair off the rails on Facebook. It's just like, I'm like you, I link my Instagram. So anything that goes on Instagram is on Facebook. And then I just don't go on it. I just I've just really dropped off. I really have no desire to be on it to me. And I and honestly like sometimes it confuses me like I was on there after a long time and realizing that there were messages for me hidden in there for people that literally were very old. And I was like, I didn't even know where to find these. But they popped up and now I feel terrible that I never responded to these messages that people sent me on this separate messenger thing of Facebook that I somehow missed. So yeah, I've done that, too. I've done that too. It's NBA anyway, I could talk all about how much I don't love Facebook anymore. Me too. Me too. Me too. Instagram, like is making me kind of sad these days, you know, I feel like just this algorithm is really tricky. And I think there's a lot of people whose pages in work I love but I'm not seeing and you know, you really have to play the game. And I, you know, think if you if you want to jump on and make a real and be dancing and doing something fun and free spirited and I think that's amazing. But I just really want to see like photography, I want to see stills I want to see, you know, I want to see things that like I can kind of really, you know, kind of take away from and I don't know, I think it's kind of gotten a little too tick talky and I jump on Tik Tok, and it makes my head want to explode. And I don't know why he would want to spend any time there. It's, yeah, goldfish with a three second, you know, attention span. And so I just feel like, oh, I kind of hope that Instagram can kind of revert back to the original spirit of the app, because I really loved it. And it's early days. And now I feel like we're kind of getting in a space where I don't know how much longer I'll be, you know, trying to play that game. But we'll see. Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of people. I say a lot of people, not a lot of people. A few people I've noticed lately have been getting completely off everything and just saying this is my email, but this go on my email list or visit my webpage. That's how I'm going to talk to people now. Because I think people are worried that if the like, we don't own our content that we put out. Like, if Instagram goes down, there goes all our stuff, you know. And so I think some people are starting to get a bit worried specifically with the way that Twitter has just been desecrated for one word, but knew who knows what could happen to anything at any time. So I don't know, if people get a bit worried. But you're also on YouTube, I saw you've got some content on YouTube as well, what sort of, to share on on YouTube? You know, it's that is an evolving bag of tricks. I don't know what's going on on YouTube. I still sometimes like why did I build this channel. But I know part of it was that I last year around the holidays, I felt like I was kind of seeing some just trends in my clinical practice that I thought a lot of people could really kind of relate to in terms of like different issues that come up with the holidays or stress at the holidays or whatever. And I just felt compelled to like make some short video clips or content and I just didn't really know like, where those should live and where to put those and, you know whether or not it's even helpful or meaningful so I just I've started to kind of say like, alright, if I ever do anything, you know, that is video related, certainly with a book launch, there were a few things that were, you know, kind of a few interviews that I did, and a few things with the publication of the book that were more video content, my publisher wanted me to kind of post a video of me like seeing the book for the first time. So that's on there, you know? And I thought, gosh, where does one go to post random video clips of themselves promoting their work in the world? I guess it's YouTube. Oh, you know, I was traveling with my kids, like, hey, Mom's got her sights set on being a YouTuber. A couple of subscribers. So if you're listening, and you are at all interested, you can join the other couple of people. But yeah, I don't know. You know, I mean, I very much relate to what you were saying that you were kind of hearing, I think I am in very many areas of my life feeling old to more of a just kind of an old school way of doing things. And technology's kind of shaping me a little bit in some ways, and kind of the modern pace. And the ways we're supposed to do everything is kind of grinding on me a little bit. Maybe it's just the time of year and coming to kind of coming off of this big year professionally. But I don't know what next year is going to hold for me in terms of how much I'm pumping all this stuff out there with the content and kind of trying to, you know, maybe have a presence on YouTube or social media, whatever we'll see. I mean, certainly with Instagram, I find it's just crazy. I do love the creative aspect of it. You know, I mean, I just feel like I share the music that I like, and I share the some of the stuff with different artists that I like and whatever else and some of it's super random, and I just feel like if anyone cares, they can check it out. Maybe, then I don't I don't know. But, you know, we'll see. We'll do we'll see. I mean, I certainly understand that bowl of you know, like, let's just kind of get back to like, meaningful relationships with the small circle of people and just kind of spend our time less on technology. Maybe. Yeah, see how that feels. They can get actually get bored again, like, remember what that feeling felt like? Like that? Yeah, fit nowadays. It feels like a rest. You're not bored. You're actually just having a rest from everything. That's overwhelming. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, if you can get that, that's awesome. We have to actively hunt for that. Right? I mean, I really look for pockets where we can create, we have to create that we won't get it right. That's so true. That is so true. Yeah, well, I'll put all the links, I'll put some hyperlinks in the show notes, so people can click away and find you and the link to purchase your book, which is pretty important. You're selling that through Amazon exclusively for Amazon. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. There's, there's a couple of other places you can find it in the States. I don't know if it would translate, you know, kind of, you know, outside of the states. It's like, yeah, there's a couple of other But Amazon is the best one to kind of go and find I feel like that's kind of the pipeline for all the books in the world is through their platform for just about everything, isn't it? Yeah, I haven't really, I have been really pleased that some of like, my local boutiques have picked it up and some other local businesses, which has been really nice to kind of see local places showing interest. It's good. I know. Some people have strong feelings about Amazon. Oh, that's great. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Gina. I've really loved meeting you and chatting with you. And thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and your experiences and all the best with everything I love. I love what you're doing. I love how you've combined these two completely different elements of your life into this. This book is amazing. And I love I love the ideas you've got coming up for the future. So yeah, thanks again. Thank you so much. And can I just say I am so in awe and inspired by your vocal talents and your singing and I love honestly I mean, I when I found out you were a musician, I was like, Oh, can I just tell you that that is like the the thing that I want to come back in my next life and be because I love music. I have a terrible singing voice. If I do anything it would be to sing. So I'm just like, I'm so in awe of what you do. And I Oh, thank you. That's lovely. We just say but I do have a belief a very long held belief that everybody can sing. We just not everyone knows how to use their instrument. So you never know if you're a good teacher. You might be right. That I don't know here's what I will tell you about that when my kids were babies like before they could even string together sentences you I would like because I always have music going I love to sing. I always had lullabies for them like, like hand like curated CD mixes of lullabies for like babies. Right? But But I would be in the car and I would be singing and they would quit like they were strapped in their little car seats. They couldn't even say sentences, but they will be like, Mommy, No, mommy, stop. Mommy, no. Mommy stop. So I did feel like you know, out of the mouth of babes confirmation that I am not a vocal talent. I got one the other day. I was singing along to a song and my seven year old said Ma'am, can you stop singing? You're wrecking the song. I pick your pardon. I said yes. Sure, mate. No worries. Right, right. I know. Yes. There's nothing honest. Yes. Why would she want about two and I love that you're doing this because I think really, you know, just introducing women to things that other women are doing and you know, just everyone kind of I think we learn through stories and relating. Absolutely no, and I think it's so powerful. I just love that you're doing this. So thank you. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for coming on. That's my always think people thank me, but I got to thank you because you're the people that make it without you guys. There wouldn't be a podcast. Right. Thank you. Good on you. Thanks so much. I've had I've had lovely time to

Singer, songwriter and mum of 2 Alison Newman chats to artists, musicians, writers and other creatives about what it is like being a mother - and being an artist. Juggling the day to day, retaining your identity, how their work is influenced by motherhood, "mum guilt", the pros, the cons and everything in between Podcast Shop Here are displayed the products used by, or created by our guests. The Art of Being a Mum is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Programme. Some of the links on this site are affiliate links. If you choose to buy a product from any of our recommendations by clicking on one of those links, we stand to earn a small commission, at no extra cost to you. Books The Competition written by my Season 2 guest Katherine Collette The Mother Fault Written by my Season 1 guest Kate Mildenhall Skylarking Written by my Season 1 guest Kate Mildenhall The Helpline written by my Season 2 guest Katherine Collette Bird of Paradise written by my Season 2 guest Emily Johnson Inner Compass Mom written by my Season 2 guest Danielle Kloberdanz Life: It Is What it Is written by my Season 2 guest Lisa Sugarman How to Raise Perfectly Imperfect Kids And Be Ok With It written by my Season 2 guest Lisa Sugarman Untying Parent Anxiety written by my Season 2 guest Lisa Sugarman Art Supplies Matisse Acrylic paints Used by Season 1 guest Melanie Cooper Liquitex Acrylic paints Used by Season 1 guest Melanie Cooper Atelier Acrylic paints Used by Season 1 guest Melanie Cooper Mont MarteAcrylic paints Mont MarteTable Top Easel Jo Sonja's Acrylic paints Used by Season 2 guest Andrea Rees Used by Season 2 guest Andrea Rees and host Alison Newman Used by Season 2 guest Andrea Rees Derwent Pencils Used by Season 2 guest Andrea Rees Staples Matte Paper Used by Season 2 guest Charlotte Condie Micador Acrylic Paint Brushes Used by Season 2 guest Andrea Rees Rit Dye Used by Season 2 guest Sami Lange Winsor + Newton Watercolour Travel Set Used by Season 2 guest Fiona Valentine Lizbeth Threads Used by Season 2 guest Sami Lange Legion Stonehenge Paper Used by Season 2 guest Sami Lange Moleskine Art A4 Watercolour Notebook, Black Used by host Alison Tech Supplies Apple iPad 10.2inch Used by Season 2 guest Charlotte Condie Apple Pencil Used by Season 2 guest Charlotte Condie Canon Pixma PRO-200 A3 Printer Used by Season 2 guest Charlotte Condie Podcast Supplies As used by host Alison Newman for producing the podcast and for vocal album recording Ambient Reflection Filter Yamaha MG10XU Mixer w/Digital FX and USB Vonyx Studio Nylon Pop Filter XLR Cable Behringer B-5 Condenser Mic Behringer C-1 Studio Condenser Mic NEEWER Microphone Suspension Boom Arm Stand, Zoom H1n Portable Recorder Hard Case for YAMAHA MG10XU

7 Chelsea McCrae Australian podcaster 7 Article # 11 August 2023 Hello! I'm Chelsea McCrae (she/her), a mother, teacher, and, more recently, the founder, producer, and host of my podcast, Definitely Baby. Over the past 4 years, I have developed a deep love for podcasts. However, it was only after becoming a mother that I felt compelled to start my own. During my pregnancy, I found solace in listening to birth stories, and after giving birth, I longed to hear from other parents about their postpartum experiences. As the first among my friends to have a baby, I often felt isolated in those early days of parenthood. Around 3-4 months after giving birth, I experienced a surge of creative energy, leading to the idea of writing a children's book with my best friend and creating this podcast. However, I soon found myself grappling with my anxiety, and parenting became all-consuming for a while. Balancing this with running our own English tuition business, my partner and I resumed classes when our daughter turned 4 months old. Creating the book never took off, but the idea for the podcast stuck. But it took until her first birthday for me to fully dive into recording episodes, and it was another 3-4 months before the pod was launched. Despite having a minor in journalism from my undergraduate studies at Monash University, I quickly realised that I was ill-prepared to produce a podcast as a one-woman show. It has been a tremendous learning experience, but I am grateful for the supportive community it has created and the connections I have made with fellow parents. I finally feel like I'm finding my rhythm with it now. My family consists of myself, my partner Hagan (he/him), and our daughter, Hazel, who is currently 20 months old. Additionally, I am currently 14 weeks pregnant with our second baby, who is expected to join us in late December or early January. Starting a podcast has been an incredible journey, albeit one that has made my weeks incredibly busy. As fellow podcasters can attest, podcasting is a labour of love that offers minimal financial incentives. It often takes years, especially for those without a preexisting social media following, to monetize their podcasts. When I first embarked on this venture, I naively believed that growing a listenership organically would be easier and that my podcast would gain traction more rapidly. Currently, I follow a scheduling pattern where I book 2-3 interviews for a few weeks, followed by a few weeks without interviews. This approach allows me to dedicate my podcasting time to editing the recorded episodes. With about 3-4 days already occupied by work for our tuition business, my weeks are already quite busy, and I have to find a way to fit podcasting into my schedule. Hazel starting daycare recently has provided me with some much-needed ease and flexibility, and I'm thrilled to see how much she enjoys it now. However, there are moments when I worry that the additional workload brought on by podcasting may take away time with Hazel. I question whether it's truly worth it. But then, a heartwarming message from a listener or a guest expressing their gratitude for their experience after recording an episode reminds me of the power of sharing our stories and reinforces the purpose behind creating this podcast. Looking back, I wish I had known the true extent of the challenges and time commitment involved, sometimes with minimal perceived gains. Also, I realise now that I should have conducted more thorough research to understand the vast number of parenting podcasts already in existence. Although I initially thought I was filling a unique niche, I have since discovered numerous podcasts with a similar format to mine. However, this realisation is not necessarily negative, as sharing our stories and shedding light on these topics is an invaluable endeavour. For anyone considering starting a podcast, I highly recommend conducting extensive research, connecting with individuals in the field (fellow podcasters are often willing to share their experiences and answer questions), and identifying a niche that aligns with your values. To be honest, I often find myself editing portions of episodes or working on social media tasks after Hazel has gone to sleep. While I'm becoming more efficient in the podcasting process over time, I recognise the need to establish new methods and dedicated time for this work. It's crucial to avoid encroaching on my already limited "me" time to ensure long-term sustainability. Also, being pregnant again requires me to be kinder to myself and seek ways to lighten my workload, particularly in the coming months as I near my due date. I've considered the possibility of hiring someone to assist me with editing, mastering episodes, or creating social media content. However, given the current circumstances, it's not feasible at the moment. Perhaps in the future, this could be a step I take to continue producing this beautiful content. I have had the opportunity to connect with numerous amazing individuals who also host podcasts. The podcasting community has been incredibly welcoming and generous in sharing advice and their personal experiences. From what I have observed, balancing parenting, work, and podcasting is a significant challenge, and it seems that everyone else faces similar struggles as well. I have drawn significant inspiration from the experiences and advice shared by fellow podcasters in my niche. Their valuable tips have guided me in implementing time-saving strategies for my podcast and have made it easier to integrate into my weekly routine. "I do recognize the importance of maintaining my individuality. It's crucial for me to engage in activities that nurture my well-being, such as staying active, spending time with friends, and pursuing personal interests. These aspects contribute to my sense of fulfilment and enable me to be the best version of myself as a mother to Hazel." As mentioned earlier, the podcast community has been incredibly encouraging and supportive. Even though most of my friends do not have children themselves, they have been wonderfully supportive throughout this journey. A friend who has their own podcast generously taught me everything about setting up an RSS feed, scheduling episodes, and the process of recording. My partner contributed by composing the intro tune and recording it with a producer friend. That same friend also mastered the initial 4 or 5 episodes of the podcast and provided valuable tips on sound quality. Additionally, another wonderful friend designed the original logo, and a talented photographer friend captured beautiful photos of Hazel and me, one of which I have used for the new logo. Lastly, I am grateful for all my amazing friends with kids who agreed to be part of the first 6 episodes that I recorded prior to the release, as well as all the wonderful people who continue to share their stories on the podcast. I couldn't have started the podcast or continued with it without the support network I have. It has played a crucial role in motivating me to persist and has alleviated a significant amount of pressure in the initial stages. Their encouragement and assistance have had a positive impact on my work, art, and overall creativity. Absolutely. I personally experienced the concept of "mum guilt" during my early parenting journey, especially when I didn't have close friends who were going through the same challenges. Connecting with my local New Parent's Group and spending time with other mums helped me realise that comparison, shame, and guilt were common emotions in parenting. Initially, I felt inadequate compared to others who seemed to have everything figured out regarding sleep, feeding, and routines. However, as we got to know each other on a more personal level, I discovered that we were all struggling and none of us had it all together. One triggering factor for my "mum guilt" was questions about Hazel's sleep habits, as it was a particularly challenging topic for me in the first year. Additionally, when I started working again for our own business when Hazel was four months old, I felt guilty for not being with her enough, especially during evening classes when she would cry for me as I left for work. In the early months of Hazel's life, leaving her would often trigger intense "mum guilt" for me. It was challenging for me to enjoy myself or have "me time" because I constantly worried about her crying, being hungry, or needing comfort. However, as she grew more independent after her first birthday, I started to find it easier to enjoy time away from her, making parenthood feel less overwhelming and more manageable. Regarding my creativity and starting the podcast, the transition felt relatively smooth. While it can be overwhelming at times and requires a significant amount of work, the fact that the podcast's topic is deeply rooted in parenting helps alleviate some of my "mum guilt" when I invest time into it. The only concern I have is occasionally worrying that it may take away more time from Hazel. In summary, "mum guilt" has influenced my early parenting journey, particularly when comparing myself to others. However, as I formed connections with fellow parents and gained more confidence in my abilities, the intensity of "mum guilt" diminished. Starting the podcast has provided a creative outlet that aligns with parenting, and although it can be demanding, it doesn't trigger the same level of guilt as other aspects of life. Becoming a mother brought about a significant transformation in my sense of identity. This change was amplified by the circumstances surrounding my pregnancy, as it came at a time when I was completing my Masters degree and navigating a new relationship. Motherhood has unexpectedly provided me with a sense of purpose that I didn't realise I was missing. It has anchored me and instilled a newfound confidence within me. I now embrace the role of "mother" wholeheartedly and it has become a central aspect of my identity. While I don't specifically resonate with the idea of needing to be "more than a mother," I do recognize the importance of maintaining my individuality. It's crucial for me to engage in activities that nurture my well-being, such as staying active, spending time with friends, and pursuing personal interests. These aspects contribute to my sense of fulfilment and enable me to be the best version of myself as a mother to Hazel. As she grows older, I want to demonstrate the value of self-care and pursuing passions, and I hope to inspire her through my actions and the values I hold. Starting this podcast has become a significant passion of mine. I firmly believe in the power of sharing stories and creating a supportive and inspiring resource for other parents and individuals alike. I take immense pride in the effort and time I invest in building this podcast and fostering a supportive community. It's something I hope my children can someday admire in me, as it aligns with the values I strive to instil in them. The work of a mother, in general, is ridiculously underrated. The paid maternity leave we are given is so minimal, and women often take off more time than their work allows due to personal preferences. Consequently, there is a significant period without contributing to superannuation. Motherhood is, by far, the hardest, most time-consuming, and relentless job I have ever experienced. As for my podcast, it does not generate any income; in fact, I spend close to $100 per month on recording and editing platforms. The prospect of monetizing it seems distant, and this long-term impact affects how I perceive its value. While it remains my passion project, it demands a substantial portion of my time, leaving me uncertain about its sustainability going forward. Nevertheless, I must continue to nurture my love for it. I firmly believe that the work of artists, especially mothers who are also artists, is highly undervalued by society. "I aspire to model a range of values and qualities to my daughters, including financial and cultural independence, as well as the importance of self-discovery, empathy, and embracing their unique interests and aspirations." I was raised by a single mother, and due to her status as a single parent, she had no choice but to continue working from when I was a young age. She worked as an independent midwife, which meant that there were times when I stayed with family members or friends while she attended births. As I grew older, I even had the opportunity to accompany her to some of these births. Since she was self-employed and had a flexible schedule, she was able to spend a significant amount of time with me. Additionally, we had the chance to travel and also moved towns and states a lot. These experiences of being raised by a working single mother instilled in me a strong sense of independence. I have always rejected the notion of the heteronormative, patriarchal perspective that perpetuates traditional societal norms and expectations, assuming rigid gender roles where mothers are primarily responsible for parenting, cooking, and cleaning. As a result, it is extremely important to me that my children see both Hagan and me as equals in terms of our careers and the shared responsibilities of parenting. This value holds particular significance in raising my daughters. I aspire to model a range of values and qualities to my daughters, including financial and cultural independence, as well as the importance of self-discovery, empathy, and embracing their unique interests and aspirations. My podcast, Definitely Baby , is available on most major platforms. Simply search 'Definitely Baby' and it should come up. You can also find me on Instagram @definitelybabypodcast, where I share beautiful photos of our weekly guests, segments from episodes, and updates about my life and the podcast. Each week, I release a main episode featuring interviews with different parents, exploring their beautiful and unique parenting journeys. I ask each guest a similar set of questions to capture a diverse range of stories on the same topics. Additionally, I occasionally release bonus episodes where I delve into interesting topics with experts. I'm also excited to introduce two new upcoming segments.The first segment features casual chats with mums and parents discussing various topics related to parenthood. Think of it as eavesdropping on a parent's group catch-up and gossip. The second segment, which I'm incredibly thrilled about, focuses on VBAC (Vaginal Birth After Caesarean). As I'm personally planning for a VBAC later this year, I'm deeply passionate about providing a resource to empower others to make informed choices. I already have lined up a few exciting experts as guests, and I believe it will be an incredibly special series. So, for anyone out there who is considering whether VBAC is the right option for them, planning for one, or knows someone who is, keep your eyes peeled for this upcoming series! It's going to be a valuable resource. Contact Chelsea Links: Spotify / Apple Podcasts / Instagram BACK

Kate King US counsellor + art therapist S2 Ep60 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Kate King, a licensed professional counsellor and a certified art therapist, and a mom of of 2 based in Boulder Colorado. USA Kate grew up with a lot of art around her, her grandmother was always very creative as were her parents, her dad was a stone sculptor. Her family supported expression through creativity. Kate had a number of black sketch books that she would always carry around with her. Kate was actually doing a lot of art therapy already before knowing what it really was. Her formal schooling began at the University of Denver where Kate graduated with a dual Bachelor’s Degree in Psychology and Art. It wasn't until she completed College that she googled what to do with these studies and found art therapy. From there Kate eagerly pursued post-graduate education at Naropa University (a Buddhist-inspired school in Boulder, CO) where she earned a Master’s Degree in Transpersonal Counselling Psychology and Art Therapy. Kate is a Licensed Professional Counsellor and Board Certified and Registered Art Therapist. Her private practice is a colourful, creative, cozy space located in the Ken Caryl area of Littleton, Colorado. Under the umbrella of her business, The Radiant Life Project , Kate offers a holistic, preventive health perspective which incorporates verbal, creative, and body-centred therapy skills and techniques. She operates from a perspective that considers each person in their mental, spiritual, physical, and emotional entirety. It is her genuine belief that each person is capable of choosing their life's path, and re-creating their story along the way. Kate began writing her book The Authentic Mother - Creative Art Engagement to Support the New Parent when her son was 3 months old, as she was unable to find a book that could help her in the creative way she was seeking. Kate has also created a set of oracle cards, The Ink & Wings Oracle Deck , and I was fortunate enough to receive a reading from Kate in this podcast! If you are interested you can take a look at the cards she drew for me here Connect with Kate website / instagram / facebook / youtube Connect with the podcast - website / instagram *** This episode contains discussion around mental health, anxiety, post natal depression and birth trauma. *** If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is a pleasure to have you. My guest this week on the podcast is Kate King. Kate is a licensed professional counselor, and a certified Art Therapist, as well as being a mom of two based in Boulder, Colorado in the United States. Kate grew up with a lot of art around her. Her grandmother was always very creative, as were her parents. Her dad was a stone sculptor, her family supported expression through creativity. Kate had a number of black sketchbooks that she would always carry around with her. And Kate was actually doing a lot of art therapy already, before really knowing what it was. Her formal schooling began at the University of Denver, where Kate graduated with a dual bachelor's degree in psychology and art. It wasn't until she completed college that she Googled what to do with these two modalities and found art therapy. From there, Kate eagerly pursued postgraduate education at Naropa University, a Buddhist inspired school in Boulder, Colorado, where she earned a master's degree in transpersonal, Counseling Psychology and art therapy. Kate is a licensed professional counselor, and board certified and registered art therapist. Her private practice is a colorful, creative and cozy space located in the ken Carroll area of Littleton in Colorado. Under the umbrella of her business, the Radiant Life Project, Kate offers a holistic preventative health perspective, which incorporates verbal, creative and body centered therapy skills and techniques. Kate operates from a perspective that considers each person in their mental, spiritual, physical and emotional entirety. It is her genuine belief that each person is capable of choosing their life's path and recreating their story along the way. If today's episode is triggering for you at all, I encourage you to seek help from those around you medical professionals or from resources online. I have compiled a list of great international resources on my website, Alison newman.net/podcast. This episode contains discussions around mental health, anxiety, postnatal depression and birth trauma. The music used on today's episode is from my new age, Ambient Music trio called LM Joe and is used with permission. Lm j is myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you so much for being a part of this. It's really it's lovely to meet you. It's lovely to meet you. I'm grateful to be here. Yeah. So whereabouts are you in the US? I am in Denver, Colorado. Yeah, right. That's pretty nice there, isn't it? It's beautiful. And very close to the infamous Red Rocks. concert venue. So I don't know if you've heard of that. But it's really pretty place. Yeah, right. So what time of year is over there now? You're in your summer, aren't you? Yes. This is the hottest time of the summer for us. Yeah, right. So jealous of where you are. I would love to be winter right now. Don't be jealous. It's horrible. Here. It is just fair. I just, we've just come back from a week up in Queensland where it's like nicer. Because it's just so gray. Like I can deal with cold but I just can't deal with lack of sunshine. Like it's just just gray. And it just makes me annoyed. And yeah, you're like in Colorado. We have like 300 days of sunshine here. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Don't tempt me. That sounds really. Maybe it's time for a vacation. Yeah, I've actually never been to America. So there you go. And I've never been Where You Live either so I would love to visit. Australia is pretty good. A lot Australia. Yes, I've heard beautiful things you after your name, you've got lots of letters. Can you just just tell us what, what you what you do? Yes. So the M A is representative of my master's degree, which is in transpersonal, Counseling Psychology and art therapy. Transpersonal Counseling Psychology is a form of psychology that considers where the psyche and the spirit meet. And so there's a lot of influences around spirituality and just kind of open mindedness and open heartedness into different traditions and modalities. So that's the MA, the LPC is my Licensed Professional Counselor certification. So that's my therapy license here in the state of Colorado. And the ATR since I wrote this book, actually, I have a new credential now it's ATR dash BC, which stands for board certified registered art therapist. And so that's a art therapy designation. Excellent. So going right back to the beginning, I guess, how did you first get interested in? Was it the art that came first? Or sort of the thinking about people? Like how did you sort of get drawn into this sort of area? Yeah, it was the art. My my family is sort of creative at the roots. My grandmother was always very creative. My dad is a stone sculptor. And so I had a lot of art surrounding me growing up, and my family really supported just expressing that way. And I used to have these black sketchbooks that I just would fill with drawings, I would carry these with me everywhere I went, I had bookshelves filled with them. And, you know, they were, I wouldn't go anywhere with them. They were always with me. And so I think I was doing art therapy on myself before I knew what it was. It wasn't until I was about to graduate from college. And I had a Bachelors of Arts Degree and a psychology degree in a double bachelor's focus that I was like, What do I do with my life? And I actually Googled, what do you do with an art degree and a psychology degree? And that's how I first learned about art therapy from Google. Yeah. And then did you sort of go, this feels very familiar to me, like, Was it something that just sat naturally with you anyway? Yes, it resonated so strongly that I just, I stopped really looking and I just started looking for a graduate program where I could really studied what I wanted to study. And I ended up at a school here in Colorado called Naropa University that was founded by a Buddhist monk. And it has a strong background of meditation and different kinds of spiritual practices. And so the coming together of science and spirituality and creativity and psychology, it was just like, everything that I was interested in. Yeah, that sounds amazing. I didn't actually know that places like that existed. That is really cool. It is very cool. I did not know either, until I plugged them into Google. So for people who aren't familiar, how would you describe art therapy? Art Therapy is it's a form of, there's actually two different schools of art therapy. One is considered art as therapy, which is that the art is inherently healing, and you don't really need to talk about it, do anything, you know, just creating heals things within us because it helps us to sublimate or move the energy through our body and out from us in a way that's productive. And the other school of art therapy is art as psychotherapy, which is more of what I do in my private practice where I would provide specific directives, kind of projects for people that are designed with the intention of helping them investigate what's going on in their lives and have sort of a visual representation of that, rather than just the talking that we normally do in therapy, which can so often, kind of people can Avoid talking about certain things, or they can hide information from themselves from their therapists that way. But art therapy is just a really gentle kind of backdoor into the psyche that allows you to work through the metaphor of color, and line and shape and image. So you see what you're ready to see in your art. And the art therapist can sort of gently reflect like, wow, it looks like you only used you know the color blue today, what does blue mean to you? And then we can sort of have a collaborative dialogue about what this symbology looks like in your life and how your art can be kind of a roadmap for your psyche? Hmm. Do you find then that people that what actually comes out of people is often it's it's things that you can't put words to generally, because it's so deep, maybe people don't even realize what they're bringing out of themselves? If that makes sense. Yeah, sometimes, sometimes, people, they don't know, they don't expect the art to move through them in the way it does. But usually, once they do create something, it's easier to talk about it because it already exists in some form. Now that they've made it, it doesn't feel so pent up. And sometimes talking about things through metaphor just feels a lot safer. Instead of someone talking about their trauma, they can talk about the, you know, the lightning bolts that are in their imagery, and that holds the kind of energy of that trauma without it feeling so triggering that it shuts them down. Hmm. Yeah. So it's a really good way for people to communicate without feeling. I don't know, scared, I suppose that. Yeah, wonderful. It's like a natural titration process where they can, they can kind of go as deep or as as intensive as they want to go. And they don't have to do anything they don't want to do their art kind of helps to guide their comfort. Yeah, yeah, that is really cool. Because I've had my fair share of, of therapy over the years, but I've never done art therapy. And it's sort of a kind of wonder, it's just to see what happens. Especially as a creative person, I'm surprised that surprise, you wouldn't do that. Although, you know, you don't have to be a creative person to benefit from art therapy, I actually, I really enjoy seeing people come to art therapy, who have no art background at all, because they don't have any picture in their mind for making something beautiful or frameable. It's just expression for the sake of expression. And sometimes that takes a lot of pressure off. So for people who are already artists, sometimes we need to move through the layers of like, releasing some of the pressure. And so I'll have them make art with their nondominant hand or with their eyes closed, things like that, so that they don't have that pressure to make something beautiful. Sometimes you need to make something messy or ugly. Yeah, cuz that's the thing is in a restaurant, you're not really addressing the issues. I mean, you're showing new issues, I suppose the the lack of letting go and control and the pressure that you feel and the expectation, whatever. But yeah, perhaps not then allowing you to go into that next layer of what you kind of might need to work through, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. But it's all it's all good work. And I think whatever is ready to be worked on comes up in this session. And so we don't really have to dig too deep. It just shows up, because ultimately, our systems want to heal. Yeah, I've heard that actually like that, that I can't, I don't know how to describe it. But it's like your, your inner, whatever that is, knows where it's supposed to be. And it will do what it needs to do to try and get you there. But then the humaneness of us and the ego stops us from getting there. Right, exactly, yeah, we get in our own way, a lot of the time. Art is a really great way to help to sort of release some of those narratives and just let you connect with the part of you that knows what you need to heal and express and grow. Yeah. Coming back to your own art, what sort of style or is there a way you can describe like the mediums you like working with what what's sort of your art? Yeah, so my art has sort of changed over time. It's interesting. As an art therapist, I know now that the different kinds of art I made over time were reflective of how healed I was in my own psycho emotional process. So what I do now is I love watercolor and goulash like a like the pigmented like the tubes of watercolor, not the palette necessarily because I like it when it's really vibrant. And I also like to draw I like a lot of detail and I love just black rollerball pens, and then sort of working with them together with watercolor can be interesting. But in the beginning for the longest time, most of my life, I it was just black and white, really intense, patterned, organized drawings. And I now know that that was my way of containment and of kind of holding myself together. And as I went through my own therapeutic journey, I was able to explore more with, you know, watercolor that drips and bleeds and it's less than control. I also really liked colored pencil, just colors really vibrant colors are important to me. And lately, I've been drawing a lot of imagery about goddesses and the divine feminine and sort of the celestial. I have pictures with like a goddess with horns and wings and a sun, you know, solar systems. So it gets a little magical for me. Oh, that's so cool. It's interesting, isn't it, there's probably people out there now thinking, they're thinking about the stuff that they make, that they're starving, they're thinking, Oh, I wonder what that means. Like, we can, we can draw so much from what we're doing. And it's interesting, you say how it changes like I, I have times when and this is just me personally, and I'm sure there's people, you know, we change all the time. But there's some days I really like to draw, and I can't draw like I'm not a draw at all. But I love coloring and I love the sound that it makes. And it makes me feel really grounded. Almost like I have an urge to write in lead pencil like that kind of feeling where I don't know back to the earth where you know, it's I don't know how to describe it anyway. And then other days, like the watercolor, you happy to let things just wish wash everywhere and you don't mind if something dripped somewhere? Or well, maybe then you do. And then you go, Oh, actually, no, I don't want to do this today, I need something that's going to stay more I want it to stay. So we sort of change, even, you know, day to day of what we're using, based on how we're feeling and what we're going through, I suppose. Yes, the materials can mirror what we're feeling. And they can also be used to sort of like nudge us when we're ready for growth. So a really controlled person, when they're stable and resourced. Watercolor would be great for them, because it would sort of push them to become more comfortable with less control. And when you practice that with art, your brain starts to become more familiar with that. And then it's more likely to repeat that in other areas of your life that are not art, like maybe your relationships, you don't have as much control. And you're more okay with that. So it kind of pairs well with all of life. Yeah, that just reminded me of a lady I had on the podcast just a couple of weeks ago, Fiona Valentine, and she's in Australia. And her and her husband do classes for businesses, like groups of employees, who want to try and extend their creativity. So they, they get them to draw, and it's something that's achievable. So it's not going to make people feel like alienated that they can do it. And then when they realize that they can actually draw, then it changes those neural pathways. And then like you say, it flows over to the other parts of their life. So the idea is that then it might help them in their work to think differently, or, you know, see things in a different way, I suppose. So it's absolutely a thing, isn't it? It's amazing. Yeah, yeah, our brains are really malleable. And so if we can find some mechanism that helps to teach our brains to think differently, it affects our whole life, it has a ripple effect that reaches really far. Now, I want to start talking about some of the things you've created. And I'm gonna start about your book fairs, which you've kindly sent me a copy of thank you so much. It's called the authentic mother, creative art engagement to support the new parent and I have read through this and it is sensational. It is really, really, like I was blown away. I really, I wish we shouldn't say things like this, but I wish I had had this when I had my first child because I think it would have made a massive difference to my mental wellness and my journey through mental illness. Can you see We've asked what the sort of impetus was to create it and telling us in your own words, rather than me, telling people what it is to share, share what it is all about. Yes, absolutely. And thank you so much for your kind words, it really, it really is a labor of love. So, I wrote this book in the very beginning stages of my motherhood journey, after I had my first child, probably when he was, I don't know, maybe three months old, I started writing it because I needed a book. And because I was feeling really, like, shocked and lost and overwhelmed by motherhood, because it was not the beautiful picture that everyone said it would be. The birth was totally traumatic, like it was very, very challenging. And so I kept trying to find a support resource. And everything I looked for it was either kind of shaming or not really validating for the truth, it really didn't give a lot of creative support, which was very important to me at that time. And so I just started to journal and write about my experience. And one day when I was journaling about it, I had left it on my computer, and a friend of mine came over. And she saw it, and she's like, What is this? And I told her and she was like, Kate, you have to publish this. This is what so many moms need. And I'm like, no, nobody wants to read this. And so ultimately, that was the beginning. And she said, Yes, moms need this, for sure. And so because it's an art therapy book, it talks a little bit about the neuroscience and kind of the psychological aspects of what happens in the brain in the body when we become mothers, fathers when we all go through this, but it felt important to have real artwork in it. And so I sent out a beacon to moms and I ended up getting over 35 Real moms who don't identify as artists. And they I sent them the directives that I write about in the book. And they made art for the book. And so I have real, real pieces of artwork for the projects and directives that I've designed to help support moms, dads, just new parents, as they're navigating everything from body image stuff to mental health challenges to issues with your family and your in laws and boundaries, cultural expectations. So it's a really wide variety of directives. And the intention here is really just to support that the motherhood experience is very vast and broad and unique for everyone. And it's important that we have a creative outlet for that, so that we don't spiral down to a place where we feel isolated, and things get worse. So literally, that was this book is what helped you and stopped you from doing just that. Man, thank you for sharing it with the world. That fringe, whoever you are, thank you. Because it is so valuable. It's I don't know, I, I, when I was flipping through it, I just kept thinking, I wish I'd known this, I wish I thought like this, I wish I'd had, I wish like literally I wish I had it would have even with my second child when I was seven years older, I had more experience in the world, I was now working in childcare. So I physically knew how to take care of a child. And I kept telling myself, it's not going to be the same, it's gonna be totally different, you know, for all these, whatever reasons, and my personnel depression was far worse than it ever was when my first child. So the talk that like, and you're saying, Hey, you talk about I guess, what's the word, the jargon? I don't know if that's the right word, but of your background, you know, the the psychology behind things, and you know, the neural pathways and what have you. But that's not overwhelming. It's not like you pick it up and you feel alienated by the words, if you know what I mean. Anyone can pick it up without having any understanding or any background or knowledge in that field. So that's really good. So you don't feel you know, you're already going through enough as a new mother. Like, I don't know this, and I don't know that. But you pick this up and it feels familiar. Which is lovely. It's like, if I'm getting really sloppy now but it literally it feels like you're right here next to me if you know what I mean. Like it feels like you're right here. So I'm getting really emotional. Really does it really feels like that and, and I love that you call it the authentic mother because it's you know, because we have all these, you know, versions of what a mom's supposed to be and the good mom and the bad mom and you're not doing this you're not doing that and you're not doing it right. It's like Get rid of all of that those labels, and you go back to who you are, in your core. You're this child's mother and how to sort of look after yourself and keep yourself well. Sorry, that was really blurry. I appreciate it. No, I It really warms my heart that the book has touched you because that was, that was what I so needed. And that was my intention. I wanted people to feel with this book, like they were talking to a friend. And I wanted it to feel accessible to people who wanted to kind of understand what was going on with them, but didn't have the psychology background. So I'm happy to hear that it doesn't feel dense and jargony accessible to you. Because that's, that was my intention. Now, it's lovely. Sorry, I've just raved on so much. But honestly, I just even as I'm sort of thinking that because I want I want to do this stuff in it, I want to use it in a way. I'm not gonna have any more children. But I feel like I could benefit from doing the the exercises and like you said, the directives in here, thinking it from looking at through another lens, perhaps as other issues going on in my life. So Oh, yes, all of legally. All of these directives are applicable outside of early motherhood as well. I mean, I couldn't really honestly flip to any of them. I just flipped to one that was about just creating this called the insecurity image. It's on page 138. And this is just about creating imagery about what you feel insecure about. A new mom to feel insecure. This could be about your workplace, your relationship, your your new gray hairs, like I don't know, it could be about anything. Yeah, let's see, I've just got glasses. I don't want to wear them. Yeah, so any of these are applicable inside of motherhood, outside of motherhood in groups. I've done a lot of these directives with my friends. I've done them with my husband. I've even done them with children because they're really fun. Yeah. So there you go, everyone, even if you're not having another child, you can definitely gain something from this. And something else you you've got that you've made, which you just shared with me before we went live is your I don't want to come to do a column tarot cards, or you call them Oracle Card, Oracle Card. Sorry, yeah, this is the ink and wings, Oracle deck, because you know, my art is magical. And it includes wings. So there you have it. So this is a deck of cards that is comprised of my artwork. And it is very, sort of spiritually rich, and it helps with insight and just gaining navigation for your for your life. I I pull cards almost every day and my kids love it. We pull cards for what you know what's gonna happen today, or what do I need to focus on right now? And it seems like it's always really spot on. I love doing my cards. I often do them overnight when about when I'm about to fall asleep. And I'll do the three card spreads. I will do like the past, present or future. And then other times just there'll be another card that's like poking its head out and like okay, yes, you obviously need to tell me something. And then I've just end up with like, all these. Oh, just one more, just one more. But yeah, I love them. We might. We might talk about them a bit later and possibly do a reading if you're up for that. Oh, yes. I would love to do a reading. That will be a first for the podcast to no one's ever done. I love it. It's always so fun when I do those because I'm like, is this gonna work? And then usually it kind of does. So we'll see if it works. We'll test it out. All right. Ready? Now you mentioned one of your children there when you said he was sorry, he or she I'm not sure was three months old when you started writing the book. Can you share a little bit more about your children? Yes. So my son is named Bridger. And he's nine. So he in this book are about the same age. I birthed them at the same time at the same time they birth myself as a new mom. So I have Bridger who's nine and I have Heidi who is six, and no more babies for me because my hands are so full with those. I can relate to that. So you said you you share your sort of experience with the oracle cards, you're obviously quite sort of open and communicative with the children and share a lot of your things you enjoy, I suppose. Are they into do some art. They do the artwork as well? Yes, yeah, we have set up a designated art space in our home. And so sometimes when it's a weekend and we have some extra time we get Really excited about having our time together. And I had a teacher in graduate school in my art therapy program that always said, you have to lay out your art materials like like you're in a candy store, so that they all just look so enticing, that you just can't wait to dive in. And so we keep our room like that in our home where everything has its place, and it's colorful, and the boxes are open, and you can see what's inside. So the kids will just go into the art space with me, and some days will paint some days will make a big mess, some days will, you know, be very, very tidy and neat. And we'll do collage, we'll do everything. And it is such amazing bonding time. Even my husband will join us sometimes. And he I don't think he identifies as being very creative. But I think he really enjoys it when he's there. What not what I would read it, yeah, and you just kind of get lost in the art process. And we do have, at the end of every year, we have a family vision board kind of ritual where we all go through collages and create imagery about what we want to bring into the next year. And so that has become something my husband has really enjoyed. And he actually invited his father to join us a couple of those years. And it was so fun just having the whole family make vision boards. And then you put up all our vision boards. And it's interesting to see what everyone wants that's similar or different and how they overlap and how they kind of coordinate. So when you had your daughter, then I don't want to say you breeze through it. But did you find it easier because you have those tools and you knew what you needed to do to incorporate your art to help you manage the transition to have? I think it was easier for me? Yes, I think having the tools was a big a big deal. And it really supported me. And also, I think it also helped me that I had already sort of stretched my life around one baby. And so I felt like, you know, there's no, there's no selfishness left, like might as well throw another one in here. While we're while we're the bottomless pit of caregiving. Yes, but it definitely was interesting to have art. When I had my daughter, my son was two and a half. And so he was active in the art process. So we would be able to make art together at that period, which was really a kind of neat thing. So that when the baby was, you know, nursing or sleeping, I had something to do with my son that actually benefited both of us. That's really important, isn't it? Because I feel like a lot of the time, pardon me, the the first child, depending on their age can sort of feel a little bit shafted, like there's a new baby here. And now I'm number two, and I don't like this, and then you can see the sort of perhaps some changes in behavior, you might not like putting it that way. But yeah, to be able to do that you keep your relationship really strong with him. And I guess to its, it allows him to realize that this new little person isn't a threat to him. So he's might be more anonymous and more accepting. But maybe I don't know, it sort of helps all of the three of you together to create, you know, a little unit as a three rather than a, it's me, it's mum time, or it's not my mom time, you know that that conflict? Right? Yes, the art can be sort of like a joining force. That's a really good word. Yes. That's really good word. I like that. I'm going to take that quote. Yes, go for it. I also think it's good with when when babies are around moms who are creative, then creativity is a normal part of life. And so it feels more accessible to the kids. It's like, if you grow up, you know, eating vegetables, then vegetables are just normal and you just eat them, right? It's the same thing with creativity and moms get to model that by their own creative process and the inclusion of their kids through that and sort of joining. Absolutely. And I think then as you as the kids get older, perhaps then realizing, seeing that deeper meaning behind the art, like sneaking into that art therapy sort of realm that it's not, I'm not just making marks on the paper. I'm not just painting I'm actually using this as a tool in my life, which is Powerful to give kids from a young age, isn't that, right? Because we all have this tool, even the people who identify as non creative, we are all creative if we tap into it, and if we allow ourselves to be and it's, it can be completely free, you can go make art with nature, it does not have to be expensive, it does not have to cost really anything. And so I think it's accessible. And a lot of us just forget, or a lot of people are really traumatized by their kindergarten art teachers. So I get a lot of clients who come in and they're like, I am not an artist, I'm not artistic. My kindergarten art teacher told me that I'm bad at art. So I haven't made art since. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, it's time for a corrective experience. Because art is about being expressive. It's about making, it's not about the end product. Yes, I'm really glad you said that, actually. Because as you were starting that conversation there, something came into my head and what you just said to completely confirmed it. I come from a background of working in childcare, I was in childcare for nine years. And our center had this really big philosophy about, we had this art room that was available all the time to any child of any age, or like the candy store, like everything was there, you could pick what you wanted to. And you didn't have to have an idea of what you're going to make before you went in, which I think is really important, because I think some people can be like, to the children. Now what are you going to make, it's like, well, you don't really no till you there and you're experimenting and experiencing, then something might come out. But then a lot of kindergartens and I know a lot of like early, maybe reception in new ones, teachers would have just like a cut out like a printed stencil, each child will get the exact same picture, maybe just say it's Christmas time and everyone's got to make a Christmas tree. And it all has to be green. And it all has to have the same things on it. And it all has to be folded the same way. And we used to have this poster up in our staff room, and it was like a picture of a child created a painting of whatever. And then it had this, you know, repetitive, exactly the same image. And it said, This is art, this isn't and it sort of helps you realize that it's not about the end product, it's not about having that whatever looking tree to give to Mum and Dad, it's about, you know, I always valued like you can see behind me, you might not be able to cause the sun, but I've got I put most of my kids paintings around the room. And a lot of them are just I have no idea what they are. Or they might be just some whatever's on a page, but I love them and I value them so much more than I value, you know, that stencil carbon copy, because I know that they haven't done that. That's the teacher's intention is to make everybody make the same thing. And I just think it's damaging to the little imaginations that want to run wild and be magical and be inventive. And maybe your tree has horns, maybe it's purple, maybe it has six trunks, you know, we need to be able to have that expressive freedom. Yeah, maybe it's not actually a tree, maybe it's a rocket ship. Or, again, if it was my chart, if you like you're picking up. Right. Right. And, and having a place where they can have, you know, the sky be the limit to their creative ability and capacity is so valuable for kids. Absolutely. And I think I've spoken about this with a lot of moms is that fear that we can have about and probably coming from our sort of, perhaps issues with control and having things done. Right and not having mess is it's really can be really challenging to set your children up with with paints and sit there and not freak out because it's going everywhere. And it's on them. And it might not be on the paper that can be quite challenging for for moms to get over as well. Yes, I think I tell moms who have that, that kind of issue with the messiness piece to go outside and make art in the grass or to have a designated set of clothing. That's art making clothing that we just don't worry about, or to put down a giant piece of tarp or a sheet that you don't care about so that you really you can let go of that. But it's also valuable for the mom to notice that that kind of anxiety around the mess, and to do her work around that too, because the art is actually helping her to see an area where she still needs healing. And so the art therapy is happening for her even if she's not the artist, she's the witness. But she she has a thing revealed. So it's notation back into herself. Hmm, that is so true, isn't it? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Two topics that I love to sort of delve into with my guests on this show. One is identity. And we've spoken briefly about that, but we'll talk about it more. And the other thing is mum guilt. How do you feel about that? I think mom guilt is a real thing. And I think most if not all, moms feel it. And I love that it is something that's out in the open as a real thing. So that it takes the shame out of it, if possible. And if you can name your experience of having mom guilt, I think just the power of naming it takes some of the charge out of it. But yeah, I think we, I mean, I think you're in a different culture than I am. But I think collectively, many cultures on our globe have these sort of predetermined rules and expectations and structures that mothers are supposed to fit into. And it really does us a disservice. Because it doesn't allow us to be who we are. And so that's a big reason why my jam is authenticity. Because I really, I want to see what, what is real for people. And if someone is inundated with guilt, about working a lot, or not working a lot, or not being creative or not lending baby food in their home, blender, whatever. I think it's really important that they not avoid that, and that they actually say, Gosh, I feel really ashamed and guilty that I'm feeding my kid food from a pouch instead of you know, homemade. And what's that about? Right? It's another example of how we can kind of turn the arrow back at ourselves, and really invite ourselves into inner work around. What is this guilt? What is it reflecting about me? Where did it come from? Maybe it's even a lineage pattern that has been alive for generations in my own family. And how many women in my family felt unsupported as mothers? I don't know, because they didn't talk about it until maybe this generation. That's so true, isn't it? And I feel like because we're all talking about it, it takes the sting out of it a bit. You don't have to feel guilty for feeling guilty. You know, for one of a better description, it's, you know, it exists. I hate it. I think it's a load of, I hate it so much. I wish it didn't exist, but and I think that's why I like talking about it, because the more we talk about it, you know, like I said, it, it takes a feel like it takes the power out of it. Because once it's named, it's almost like I don't know, I'm trying, I had this thought come through my head, like, you know, like, if it's a monster, it doesn't exist, but it scares you. But then you discover that it exists. And then you realize it's actually doesn't have power over you. I don't know, that's a really long pole to try. And I've been watching a lot of Avengers lately. Like you said it, you'd name it, you own it, and then you can do the work on and it doesn't hold that control power fear over you because you like facing it head on and, and doing something about it. Yes, I think even though so many moms are now talking about mom guilt in a way that's really supportive and compassionate, there still is a huge part of the world that isn't talking about it. And that's laying those old narratives on motherhood. So I think it's really important for moms to find their people who can support them, and who can align with the type of authenticity that lets you feel guilty and supports you in your guilt and helps you to not feel alone and to work through it. Because if you're an authentic person, in an inauthentic system, it's gonna feel really invalidating and it's gonna, it's gonna crush you in you're not going to continue to express that because it's, it's not being validated. You just have to feel like you're pushed down. Yeah, that's really important. Isn't it about finding, finding the people that share your views? And have that, again, that authenticity? It's keep coming back to that word, but it's so true, isn't it? Yes. And I think there's a lot there about aligned relationships. You know, people like the buzzwords like toxic relationships, or that person's a narcissist or whatever. But if you just take all the labels away, and it's just about alignment or misalignment, you know, it doesn't make anyone bad or wrong. It just makes them misaligned with you. So then you go find your people who you can be more aligned with so that you have that congruence. See and that feeling of resonance when you're with people who actually see you and support you for who you are not for some charade that you're pretending to uphold. Yeah. Pardon me? That is That is so true. What sort of role do you feel like social media has to play in all this sort of guilt driving and judgment sort of thing? I think it's kind of the both sides of the coin, I think you can find that support and that authenticity. I think there's people like you and like me who are on social media trying to spread this compassion and this authenticity. And I think you can easily get down the rabbit hole of really narrow minded, rigid thinking that is related to old narratives and a lot of guilt and shame. So I think you have to be discerning with social media. Yeah, it's that same thing, as in real life is in finding those people, finding your tribe, and following the people that you don't allied with. Right, yeah. And I also think it's important to remember that what you see on social media isn't always the truth. It's hardly ever the truth. So it's everyone that you see on social media is smiling with their new baby, and they look so happy. I think it's important to remind yourself like, maybe that's partially true. But what am I not seeing about what's hard for this person, and just know that the snapshots on Facebook or Instagram are just snapshots there, they don't have depth of reality. And if you want more depth of reality, find real live humans to go spend time with instead of social media feeds. Yeah, that's really, really good advice. Because there are a lot of rabbit holes to fall down into, on social media. I find in terms of unfollowing, I'll go through phases where I felt I'll be on a different sort of tracks or follow a lot of people in that sort of area. And then all of a sudden, one day, I'll just go, Ah, no, I don't want that anymore. And I will just go through and unfollow, unfollow, and then another day, I'll find something. It's really interesting how you like, depending how your thoughts have evolved, you know, maybe you've been surrounding yourself with people that have allowed you to see things in a different way or opens your mind to a different way of thinking and then you go, Oh, actually, that stuff doesn't feel right anymore. You know, it's there's nothing wrong with doing that. Yes, that's clearing, right? So when we grow and we learn new things, we see the world through a new way, we naturally need to let go of what no longer aligns, so that we can create space for what does align, because you can't just fill yourself and your social media feed endlessly, you have to clear to let in. I once heard, I've had a few readings with psychic mediums over the years. And one of my favorites, he told me, you only have a certain amount of room in your backpack. So you know, you have to take out things sometimes to be able to fit those new things in. So I sort of use that sort of visual analogy that, you know, you can only carry so much. I love that. And it's important to be discerning. Yeah, absolutely. The other topic about identity and you touched on it. When you were talking about writing your book when your son was three months old. Let's just talk about that a bit more. So that shift that we go through. And I everyone feels this differently, too, which is awesome. Which, you know, we talked about earlier, everyone's motherhood journey is so different. Personally, the feelings you were feeling, can you sort of share a bit more about that? About what felt hard at that time? Yeah. And I guess about how, if you felt like, you know, your previous say, your previous self, you're still the same person. But, you know, you were changing into this, this mother role. How that sort of felt that transition? Oh, yes. Well, I think what made it so hard was that it was so abrupt that you know, during pregnancy, I was so happy. I loved with both of my pregnancies. It felt like an immensely spiritual experience. I felt like a vessel I felt like oh my gosh, like if the aliens could see how we make people they would be amazed. It's just so it's incredible. So even when I felt nauseous or, you know, when I was 30 pounds heavier than I was used to being, I was like, This is amazing. Yeah, I had such a great experience. And then, right at the end of my pregnancy with my son with my firstborn, our midwife found out that he was breech. And they were like, Oh, well, we're gonna have to flip this baby. And I'm like, what is that a thing. And so I tend to get very urgent about, like, when something is abnormal, medically, I just have my own anxiety triggers around health and medical stuff. And so I was like, Okay, we gotta flip this baby. And it pregnancy stopped being enjoyable, and it started feeling stressful. And I kid you not, I read somewhere that I was supposed to do a handstand and go upside down in a swimming pool to turn my baby. So if you can imagine someone at eight months pregnant, like trying to do a handstand, in the swimming pool, in like, community swimming pool with all of these people, it was humiliating. But I was so committed, I'm like, You're gonna turn this baby. Like, it didn't work, you know, it's such a silly thing. And so I tried that I did Chinese Chinese medicine called moxibustion. And I was, it's like this little, like a charcoal lit charcoal thing that you put close to a chakra. And it energetically is supposed to help, whatever it didn't do it. But what it did do is it triggered labor. And so I went into labor, just in this really stressful state of being like, my baby's not coming out the way I want my baby to come out. So that went into a birth, that was a cesarean after I was really attached to the idea of a vaginal birth. And then my baby was born with a bilateral pneumothorax, which is a puncture in each of his lungs. And so he had to go to NICU and we didn't get to bond. And I didn't get to hold him. And I was like, strapped down on a table with a open surgical wound. And it was just so different than what I envisioned. And so I was set up for motherhood, like with this trauma. And so I think, I actually think now, you know, nine years later, I look back and I'm like, Well, I learned my first lesson of motherhood, right off the bat, that I'm not in control of everything anymore. And my rigid thinking and my attachment to what I want and how I want it needs to soften and it needs to be more flexible. And so that was probably the hardest transition for me was that it was just this very abrupt sort of message that was in my face, like you are not in control. And you have got to learn how to be more flexible. Just while you're saying that I'm getting goosebumps, because that literally feels like the message that I was given. similar sort of, you know, I had all these expectations I had my first baby was a vaginal birth, but he was very quick. So I had this idea that this time my waters would break, everything would be, you know, planned and go to nap, we had a very traumatic scenario. And same thing, he was a, he was very tiny. But he, he was fully developed. But he was very tiny. Because it turned out my placenta had stopped working after 26 weeks, and no one don't know how no one discovered it. So then he was away from me for a while. So I had this, I just kept like, right from the beginning, he had to have formula. So that control I had in my last, my last baby, that I had to feed him against all odds, I was going to feed this child that was taken away from me. So it was like, Okay, you are really not in control of this. And you you're being forced to let go of these, you know, these beliefs that you are holding on to. And then when I got him back, I just had these, I just kept hearing in my head, just keep him close, keep him close. So I would just sit and hold him and nurse him and he'd sleep and I'd miss him. And it just was completely different to my first child. And I'm so glad that I was thrown all those curveballs because it just made me completely relaxed and and go, there is no routine, there is no predictability. And I was happy with that. And it was weird because I've never been happy with that. Like when I was five years old, on my first gig performing on stage, it was just at a school Christmas concert. The teacher held the microphone for me and she wasn't holding it in the right spot. So I pulled it closer. You know, this has been me my whole life. It's good. Try it Hmm, yeah, very suddenly and violently, and traumatically. That was all taken away from me. And I'm so grateful for that. Now, you know, in hindsight, the lessons that I've learned, although at the time was pretty full on that, you know, I've always, I've always felt like the, like our babies, teach us the lessons that we would not learn from anyone else, we would not let anyone else get close enough and honest and vulnerable enough as we let our children get to us. And so some of our biggest issues will never come up for healing. If our kids don't reflect them back to us, you know, and control is a really big one for a lot of moms. And it's really healing to be able to finally sort of unpack it and work through the layers. It's amazing, isn't it? Because I save the children choose us for the lessons we have to learn in this life. So it's prevalent? Yeah, I think we choose our families. So talking more about yourself in the work that you're doing? Can you share what you've sort of got coming up or anything you want to share about the work that you're doing? Yes, I actually have a huge movement that I am in right now with my business, I am in the process of transforming my private therapy practice into a large scale mental health platform called the Radiant Life project. And the Radiant Life project is all about helping people find that radiance, and that glow. That is part of our human birthright. But we forget, and we get stuck in our mental illnesses, and we get stuck on autopilot. And so this is about really getting unstuck, whether you're a mother, whether you're not a mother, whether you're a man or a woman, or non binary, anyone, this is about lighting your life up from the inside out and feeling full and resourced. Not without challenges in your life, but with the challenges and feeling empowered to live as a whole person. So I have a new book that I'm working on, that's almost ready to go to publishing called the Radiant Life project. And it's a big download of my 15 plus years of clinical experience, plus some of my own personal journey. And I've also got some courses coming up that will be available on my website. And I'll be offering retreats and workshops that are all geared toward helping people build a radiant life. Wow, that sounds awesome. I'm really excited for you. That's fantastic. Thank you, I am so excited by it, I actually took a three month sabbatical from my therapy practice because I got really burned out working sort of on the frontlines as a mental health person in the pandemic. And I thought I was just going to spend my sabbatical like curled up in bed watching movies, but actually, I have felt so energized and so excited about the Radiant Life project that I am just writing, and building and creating and making art and talking to people like you and it feels, talk about alignment, it feels very aligned. That's wonderful. I can just see your face like literally radiant, as you told me about it. It's just wonderful. Thank you. So share with us, what's the name of your website where people can best find you and find out more information. Yes, the website is the Radiant Life project.com. And you can also follow me on Instagram at the Radiant Life project. I'm I'm posting reels every other day with little therapeutic tidbits and kind of helpful, helpful little gems for people. And I have a free newsletter that I'm sending out once a month that gives inspirations and little offerings and keeps people up to date with my new releases and the progress of my book. So if you want to be part of my mailing list, you can sign up for my newsletter on my website, which is the Radiant Life project.com And that's probably the best way to reach me. Awesome. I'm glad you mentioned about your Instagram because I do enjoy your reels. And there's something very soothing about your voice too. I must say when you're sharing you know little tips about I think one was how you had to give a good apology like the three steps and there was another one about boundaries that I really liked. But the way you present them is just so it makes To stop scrolling and just go, ah, like, it's just so calming. And I don't know really connective, if that's not the word, but you know what I mean? Like, it's, again, it feels like you're right there, you're talking, you're talking to me. And you're saying, Allison, this is this is a thing you should be listening to. Thank you. That is my intention. And I am trying to, I'm trying to give away free support for people and Instagram as a great resource for people. And so I really am, you know, these aren't like promotional videos that I'm trying to hook people, I'm really just trying to give away knowledge that people can use to support themselves. Because the Radiant Life project is not about using anyone else as a crutch or expecting anyone else to rescue you. It's about doing it from the inside out. And, and being so radiant, that it extends through and beyond you and affects the world. Absolutely. We need to sit there about doing the work yourself. And there's no one's going to do it for you. When I was in the real depths of my postnatal depression, with my second child, I had that exact feeling I had, and it was incredibly daunting, and scary. But on the other hand, it was so empowering, it was like, no one can help me, and a fearful thing, but then it was like, Uh, no one can help me because I'm capable of doing this, I can do this. So it was like, flicking the switch. It's, it's scary, when you know, you've got to do it yourself. And when you're not in a great place, you know, in your own head, they can feel like the worst news in the world. Like, literally, you want someone to save you, you want someone to fix you. But working with someone like yourself, you know, a trained professional, you will have assistants, but at the end of the day, it is you that goes deep inside you and changes, you know, whether it's, you know, the habits or the way you think about you yourself, think about the world, all that sort of stuff is on you. And I think I learned that during my sabbatical it, it took me 15 years of clinical practice to realize that, oh, I don't want these people to need me, I want these people to not need me. Yo, now I'll be going back to this Radiant Life project with the new perspective of I'm here as a guide and as a supportive resource. But ultimately, this is your show. This is your life. So reclaim it. Yeah, let's see. So well said I love that. And also just a point I wanted to mention, you are trained and experienced, like you said, 15 years of clinical experience, it really annoys me when I see people on Instagram sprouting out do this, do that, whatever. And they know they have none of that. So just to point out the you actually know things. Thank you. You're right, there are a lot of snake oil salesmen out there. So make sure you know as people are being discerning about aligned relationships and the right resources, make sure that the support that you receive is from credible places. All right, well, I'll let you lead the way, Kate with this reading using your beautiful deck. Okay, thank you. So what I always do with this is, I just want the cards to know that this is for you and not me. So I just sort of say to the cards. This is a reading for Alison. Okay, so would you like to stick with your your three card? Pull? You do whatever feels right over there. But I'm gonna leave it up to you. Do you have any specific questions or any specific? Anything that's on your mind that you're curious about? Look, I'd like to just know that where I'm at right now I'm actually feeling because I see my full disclosure, I see my therapist monthly. So I do a lot of work. And I feel like right at this moment in time, I actually had a mental health check with my doctor this morning. And you know, we have this thing over here called a I think it's called K 10. And you check, no, based on the last four weeks, have you experienced different emotions or situations. And mine was the lowest score I think it's ever been ever so right now I'm going really good. So I guess I just like, you know, some feedback on that, I suppose. Yes, that's perfect. How about like, why are you feeling so well? What's working? Yeah, And what are some areas of? Oh, I got it. Okay, what's working? What is an area of growth that you can work through now that you have so much strength? And I'm wondering if maybe there was something to let go of now. So maybe I'll pull three. Yep, that sounds awesome. Okay, so the first one is Why are you feeling so good? Okay, and the second one is what area of growth feels accessible now that you're so resourced? Okay, and the third one is, what can you let go of? What do you no longer need? All right. So I'll give you these three. And then if we need an additional minute, sometimes we need one more card. So we'll see. So why are you feeling so good. This is the card that I pulled. And this is the card of companionship, this is a relational card. And for you, this could mean anything from like, either not being codependent, like just coexisting peacefully with people or it could mean that you have a new kind of support or a connection that's really sustaining and filling you up. But this is about kind of like peaceful coexistence and relationships. Yeah. And I'll screenshot these these cards and put them in the show notes for everyone. But it's, it's a pair of Dragon is it to dragonflies and flowers, and then color that is my color, that background? That's like that aqua, sort of It's a mixture between throat chakra and the heart chakra. It's kind of that that really beautiful Aqua. Love that. That's beautiful, by the way. Thank you. Okay, so number two, now that you're in a strong place, what work can you do? So this is the card that's about being both rooted, and also free. So the work now is kind of working with this binary that you don't have to be so grounded that you don't fly, and you don't have to be so airy, that you're ungrounded. So the work now is about having both Hmm. It's finding that balance, isn't that? Which kind of Yeah, you should, one sorry to cut you off. I'm usually one way or the other, I made the Full Tilt one way or nothing. So this card is telling you that now that you're in such a strong place in your life, it's time for you to kind of have a fusion of Mind Body Spirit, and not be only in one or the other. Yep, yeah. So where can you can you describe that? That beautiful picture? Fairly? Yes. So this is a an image of a figure that has sort of golden energy coming in through the crown chakra at the top of their head and moving through the body, and actually growing roots that reach down into the earth all the way down to sort of the molten lava core where there are pure crystalline energies and resources. And the figure also has large wings that are open and expanding and kind of taking off. Yeah, I have a thing with wings, we fly with feathers, I collect a lot of flat Earth, this flower girl articulates a lot of flowers, too. But wings is a big thing for me. Yes, I also love wings, well, then you're gonna like this one, too. So your third part, which is about what to let go of. This is an image that's about like magical thinking, this is about I think what this message is, is that you should let go of the sort of spiritual bypassing of avoiding things by being too kind of too spiritual, and not actually facing what's real. There is magic in the world. And there is spirituality in the world. And we can also use them as avoidance mechanisms. So I think that this card is asking you to release that. Hmm, that definitely makes sense. I love how you're, you're female, I guess presuming it's a female figure there has got the wing on one side. And then it's sort of like it's reality, and, and sort of the spiritual world sort of shining one figure and if that makes sense, and the columns and it's similar to your second card with sort of a feeling of grounding, but also flying at the same time. And I think that's part of the message with With when you don't want to let go of all of your magic, you don't want to let go of your spirituality that's important. You just want to let go of the parts that are keeping you from doing the work you need to do. Hmm, yeah, that makes sense. It's almost like I can use it as a justification to avoid things. I think you just said that. Yeah. Yes. John Wellwood has a term called spiritual bypassing. And it is just all about how we use spirituality to avoid things. And it's not that's not a healthy use of spirituality. Yeah. I love that. So do you need do you need another car? Do you feel like there's any anything lingering? No, I don't actually, I feel like that's, that's actually incredibly spot on. That's, and it's really not, I've always felt really reassured after having cards pulled like, it just feels like a nice warm hug from the universe. And, you know, there's, there's never, I don't know, all the all the decks I've ever read. If they want to tell you, you know, to improve on something, it's always in a kind way, you know, they're never gonna pound you on the head with a with a horrible, you know, mean thing. But you know, they're looking after. So if there's things I need to say, they'll tell us, you know? Yes, I talk about it as like the shadow side and the sunny side where everything has the shadow like Carl Jung talked about in his in his groundbreaking psychological work. But there's a dark side to everything. But there's also a bright side to everything. And if you can find the place where you can hold both and glean the gifts from both than that's like holistic, balanced living, right is not getting too lost in the shadows or too blinded by the light. It's getting that union the Yang sort of just it's balanced. Yes. Balance. Yes. Oh, look, thank you. That is just, ah, I feel very special. And everyone listening, you should feel special, because that's the very first time we've ever had a reading on the podcast. So thank you, Kate, for sharing that with us. You're welcome. And you'll be can people purchase your cards from your website as well? Yes. So at the Radiant Life project.com There's a page where you can purchase the deck, you could purchase the book, the authentic Mother, you can also purchase prints of my artwork. Oh, lovely. Excellent on thank you I have just had a such a lovely morning chatting to you. Thank you so much for coming on. It's just so welcome. I've enjoyed it as well. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

6 Magdalena McGuire Australian author 6 Article # 4 August 2023 Hi, I’m Magdalena. I’ve always loved stories, books and words. Reading has been one of the great loves of my life, so it’s no surprise that I’ve always wanted to be a writer. When I was a kid – like many people – I didn’t know that writing could be a ‘job’. I thought it was simply something that you did. That is, that writing was a verb, not a noun. I wrote stories, therefore I could call myself a writer – or so I thought. When I got older things got more complicated. Self-consciousness kicked in and the stories didn’t flow from my imagination to my fingers like they used to. Even worse, it dawned on me that only some people got to go around calling themselves ‘Writers’ (most of these people seemed to be men). Suddenly, it seemed that writing was a very serious and very intellectual business. I’ve tried to rid myself of these archaic ideas but they’re difficult to exorcise altogether. Maybe this is why I still feel sheepish calling myself a writer. It feels like I need a whole lot of credentials (maybe a different gender?) to claim this title. Which is silly, really, because if another woman writer told me this, I’d tell her to own it – own her space, call herself a writer. So, ok. I’ll say it: My name is Magdalena, and I’m a writer. Along with my partner, I’m raising two very funny, and very chaotic, young boys. My older son is in grade one and my younger kid is in kinder. One of the nice things about having kids is that it’s given me the chance to delve into children’s literature. At the moment we’re reading a lot of Andy Griffiths in our house! I’m always encouraging my older to kid to get into other Australian authors, but he always wants to go back to Andy Griffiths. Reading these books together has made me think about what a skill it is to tell stories that grab the reader, that make them laugh and that keep them on the edge of their seat. It’s such a talent! Reading books with my kids has also re-connected me to my childhood love of literature. "It kind of grates on me when, as women, we are compelled to say, ‘I’m really lucky because I have a supportive partner who helps with the housework and looks after the kids.’ I mean, wouldn’t it be nice if this was simply a given? And wouldn’t it be nice if we heard men waxing lyrical about the fact they’re lucky to have partners who ‘help out’ with the domestic load? " Like many women, my creative life is somewhat fractured and haphazard; it takes place in the cracks and margins. My writing time contracts and expands depending on other people’s needs and competing demands like earning money (I work part-time in the research department at a children’s hospital). Something that has helped me immensely in my creative journey is the notion of closing the gap between my writing life and my life. When I first got back into writing fiction as an adult, I thought that I had to make everything up in order to, well, prove that I could. Some people get very sniffy about ‘autobiographical’ writers – particularly when these writers are women. I used to come up with all kinds of outlandish fictional situations in order to prove to myself, and other people, that I really was writing fiction. When I had kids that slowly started to change. I realised that becoming a mother is one of the biggest transformations that a person could go through and that this makes the experience worth writing about. More and more, I started to use my own experiences as catalysts for my fiction. This escalated when I had my second child in 2020. When I went to hospital to give birth, the world was ‘normal’. When I came out, we were in lockdown. It was a point in time in which my own life – and the broader world – were undergoing massive change. So I began to write about it. And because my writing responded to the world around me, it became easier to write in the small slivers of time that I had. Many of these experiences – of having a baby during uncertain times, of finding the funny side of parenting – have made their way, in fictional form, into my short story collection, Born for You. Now, when I’m spending hours shivering in a playground, or when I’m faced with a toddler’s meltdown in a supermarket, I think to myself: ‘Oh well, it’s research. I’ll be able to use this, somehow, in my work.’ In this way, my mum-life has also become my writing-life. Closing the gap between these things has helped me to see motherhood itself as a creative act. To see it as something that, yes, takes time away from my writing but also enriches it. It kind of grates on me when, as women, we are compelled to say, ‘I’m really lucky because I have a supportive partner who helps with the housework and looks after the kids.’ I mean, wouldn’t it be nice if this was simply a given? And wouldn’t it be nice if we heard men waxing lyrical about the fact they’re lucky to have partners who ‘help out’ with the domestic load? Having said that, I know I’m extremely lucky. My husband is a feminist, a man who’s great at caring and cooking. How did he end up this way? He was raised by a feminist mum, that’s how. I’m hoping that this sharing-of-the-load helps us set a good example for our own boys (time will tell!). This support enables me to keep writing. If I had to manage the entire domestic load on my own, as well as do paid work, I don’t think it would be possible for me to be a writer. Motherhood is an incredibly emotionally intense experience. This intensity is something that I try to channel into my work, which examines motherhood as a catalyst for, and symbol of, personal and systemic change. In my short story collection, Born for You, we meet women at the crossroads of change. Sometimes these changes are global, in the cases of war or pandemic. And sometimes these changes are more personal, like, for example, a woman who is grappling with a catastrophic lack of sleep. Each story asks the question: What is it like to love and care for another person when your world has tilted on its axis? I guess this sums up my own transition to motherhood: it felt like my entire world had tilted on its axis. This sense of the ground shifting beneath my feet has been destabilising but also fruitful: it’s something that continues to provide creative fuel for my work. Likewise, I find myself obsessed with writers who explore the territory of motherhood in their work. International authors like Rachel Cusk, Deborah Levy, Bernardine Evaristo, Patricia Lockwood and Celeste Ng. And Australian authors like Angela Savage, Melanie Cheng, Maxine Beneba Clarke, Stephanie Bishop and Kate Mildenhall, to name but a few. These are the writers who inspire me. "I realised that becoming a mother is one of the biggest transformations that a person could go through and that this makes the experience worth writing about. More and more, I started to use my own experiences as catalysts for my fiction." After I had my first child, writing became something I had less time for, as well as something that I desperately wanted to do. It became more important than ever to guard my interior life; to have something that was just mine. Those early days, and nights, were fractured and sleep deprived. Just about all my outings were child-related: trips to the park or rhyme time, or the children’s gallery at the museum. When my child was still a baby (I can’t remember how old he was – that time is a bit of a blur!) I treated myself to an afternoon workshop at a writer’s centre. It was my first big solo outing in a long time. The workshop was hosted by a short story writer, Irish, gregarious, and after class he invited all of us to go downstairs to a wine bar – it’s a very ‘literary’ wine bar, where all the writers hang out, so it was exciting to be going with a crew of writers. We were sitting outside, a large group of us, split over a few tables. On my table, a woman asked about my writing life. I said that I had a baby and that I was working on a novel. I talked about the challenges of doing both these things. There was a pause. Then she said: ‘I have grave concerns for your baby. When I became a mother I gave up writing for twenty years. The wellbeing of my children came first.’ Even as I’m writing this, my heart is speeding up; my fingertips are thrumming. Nearly seven years later, the shock and humiliation still burns. I can still feel the heat of that accusation landing in my chest. I was too shocked to respond. I had too many questions to process: was I doing something wrong by going to a literary event instead of staying at home with my baby? Was I damaging my child because I wanted to be a writer as well as a mother? Did nurturing my literary ambitions inevitably mean that my child would develop a host of psychological problems? Was this a thing? This happened years ago and that baby is now a soon-to-be-seven-year old, and he’s fine. In fact, he’s amazing. But that comment still burns. Recently, I spoke to my friend about what happened. This friend of mine is eminently sensible – and I mean that in the best possible way. She has a finely tuned bullshit detector. She’s also childless by choice and there’s something about this fact that enables her to be completely objective about these motherhood-dilemmas. When I come to her with an issue like this I know that she’ll approach it without any hangups or vested interests. When I told her what happened she laughed in a kind of horrified way. Then she said, ‘I had a mother who dedicated her whole life and her whole identity to looking after me. And you know what? It was a burden. I wanted her to have her own life, her own interests and friends. I wanted her to show me how to be a well-rounded person.’ This is the thought I keep returning to: my job as a mother is to care for my children, yes, and also to show them, through my example, how to engage with the broader world. And that soon-to-be-seven-year old who I stole slivers of time from so I could write? Well he’s ridiculously proud that I’m publishing a book. He says that, one day, he’s going to publish a book too (as well as build houses and look after children and plant trees and make millions of dollars, and, and, and….). He’s seen me work hard at my writing and grapple with the highs and lows, the wins and rejections that come with this sort of work. And I think – I hope – that that’s setting a good example for both my kids. Contact Magdalena I’m super excited that my book about motherhood, Born for You, has now been launched into the world. I’ll be posting any news and events on my website BACK

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Shweta Bist Indian born photographer S2 Ep51 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) , Spotify and Google Podcasts Welcome. This week my guest is Shweta Bist, a photographer currently based in New York City, USA, and a mother of 2 girls. Shweta was born in New Dehli in India. Both her parents were artistic but put it aside to work. Shweta painted a lot, drew, sang, was in the theatre, acted and danced. Art was an outlet for her even as a child, spending time doing oil canvasses . Art was a way for her to find solace and process things that weren't going right for her as a teenager. In 2007 Shweta moved to Dubai with her husband and lived there until 2013 when she moved to New York with her young family. It was during this time of being a new mother that her interest and enjoyment from photography came to light. As her experiences with photography developed, Shweta found that the pictures became more art-like, and began to reflect her inner thoughts and feelings, more so than doing work for others. While drawing attention to her maternal identity and the intimate relationship she shares with her daughters, Shweta stages conceptual photographs to draw attention to the emotional labour of mothering, highlighting maternal love and the reciprocity of mothering between mother and child. Her endeavour is to create images that urge the viewer to contemplate the complexities of the maternal experience in its ambivalent entirety, and to contribute to a narrative about the lives of women and their children, told from their perspectives. **This episode contains discussions around anxiety and depression** The COVID Family Portrait ©️2021 Shweta Bist Motherhouse ©️2021 Shweta Bist Caught in Single Use - from the Plastic Series ©️2021 Shweta Bist Shwetas article in The Lockdown Mothers Spilt Milk Gallery / Great Pacific Garbage Patch / Andrea O'Reilly Susan Maushart - The Mask of Motherhood The Divided Heart - Art and Motherhood by Rachel Power Rachel's Art of Being the Mum podcast interview / The Museum of Motherhood Connect with Shweta Connect with the podcast Music heard today is from Australian new age trio Alemjo , and is used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... My guest today is Shweta Bist. Shweta is a photographer, currently based in New York City in the United States, and a mother of two girls. Shweta was born in New Delhi in India. Both her parents were tested, but put it aside to work. Shredder painted a lot drew sang and was in the theater. She acted and danced. Art was an outlet for her even as a child spending time doing oil canvases. Art was a way for her to find solace and to process things that weren't going right for her as a teenager. In 2007, Shweta moved to Dubai with her husband and live there until 2013 when she moved to New York City with a young family. It was during this time of being a new mother that her interest and enjoyment from photography came to light as her experiences with photography developed. She later found that the pictures became more art like and began to reflect her inner thoughts and feelings more so than doing work for others. While drawing attention to her maternal identity, and the intimate relationships she shares with her daughters Schwitters stages conceptual photographs to draw attention to the emotional labor of mothering, highlighting maternal love, and the reciprocity of mothering between mother and child. Her endeavor is to create images that urge the viewer to contemplate the complexities of the maternal experience in its ambivalent entirety and to contribute to a narrative about the lives of women and their children told from their perspective. So whereabouts are you from originally? So I'm from? I'm from New Delhi. I'm from India. And yeah, I was born in in New Delhi. And I lived there for for most of my life really? Up until now. Yeah. Yeah, I left after I got married two years after I got married to my husband. We first moved to Dubai, from Delhi. And then after that, we moved to New York. From Dubai. Yeah, in 2013. So yeah, right. And I left home in 2007. So it's been a while yeah. A company that managed were basically a manufacturer of garments and protective wear for corporate clothing and industrial clothing. And I only had time on the weekends, and I loved taking the camera everywhere I went. And gradually over a period of time, I'd developed much love for it. And you know, when you have children, you know how moms are, and we're always taking pictures of our kids. And that happened with when my first one was born. And even then I didn't think I do this for a living. But, you know, we moved to New York, and after the second one was born, about eight weeks after she was born, we moved here, and I was home with the kids, and, you know, of course, snapping away. And I think somewhere after a year, I kind of thought, you know, I love this, I should, I shouldn't do this for a living. So, but I never really, you know, you know, when the kids were little it was I didn't, it was hard for me to kind of pull myself out of where I had gotten, you know, as a stay at home mom. And I was really very focused on building a life for them and a community for us, because we didn't know many people when we moved here. And so when the little one started going to kindergarten, that's when I, that's when I went back to school a little bit, I went, I took evening lessons at the School of Visual Arts. And, and I started taking pictures for small sums of money, you know, just working freelance, like, family photographs, shooting events, performances. And, but, but I wanted to do something else is what I realized, while doing all this, I was thinking I needed to make art. And because I had so much to talk about, I felt you know, about what I had experienced about being a mother. And it just became important for me to reach out to other women, perhaps, who are going through what I was, in a sense. And for me, it became became mostly therapy. And what I do is I staged conceptual photographs that are that talk about my experience of mothering and my experience as a woman and a mother. Really, basically, that's what it is. And so my work basically evolved over a period of time where it came from a place of necessity, to process what I was going through. And also because I was interested in making art, rather than just doing freelance paid paid work, yeah. Yeah, something like meaningful and then something, I guess that would satisfy what what you needed to get out of it. Like you said, you needed to make art you needed to, you know, communicate to others and share your thoughts, I suppose. Yes, yes. And I think, Well, I think of myself as a thinker, and an image maker, I, I've always thought a lot. Since I was little, my mother was like, You think too much and everybody was mad? Almost You think too much. I'm like, in the beginning, I used to think that something's wrong with me. But, you know, now I've come to a point that I'm like, I'm so old. No, I don't think this is going away. This condition is not going away, I should do something about it. So um, so you know, I, I harness all of that now, you know, because you must, I guess some of us such as thinkers, and it's important for me to make pictures to visualize my interiority. I think that's, that's what I'm doing really. And taking pictures is it's meditative for me. I use it as therapy. Like one might experience flow when you swim, or you run and some people meditate. For me, this is meditation. And in that moment, I connect with the world in this uncanny way. That I'm so aware of the present, you know, in that one moment where the future doesn't exist, and the past doesn't exist, either, really, in a sense, because everything I've known up until that point, is already influencing how I'm thinking and feeling in that moment. And so therefore, it's just that one moment for me at that point and what I do with it, so I just find photography, a very meditative exercise, and I engage in it to shut everything else down. The noise, if that makes any sense? Yeah, no, it does. And I think in the beginning, when I, when I started, it was take pictures of what was in front of me waiting for a circumstance to emerge, you know, the wait, wow can be endless. And, but I think now what I do is because I want to use this as a tool to convey how I feel, and I think, so I construct images, instead of waiting for the image to happen, I, I construct them. So you use your daughter's a lot in your work, it's a wonderful connection between your art and your children. And I guess it's sort of makes sense because of what you're trying to convey. Can you share a little bit more about that? Yes. I think that when I started taking pictures of the girls in the setups in the state in the the stage photographs with the children, it was at the start of the COVID pandemic. And, you know, we were home and the kids were wanting to be busy. And I thought, well, instead of the iPad, why don't we just why don't we take pictures together. And they were quite excited about the idea. And, you know, they still like doing it with me, although now kind of waning from it, you know, the excitement is dying down. But how it started was that basically, and, and over the course of taking pictures with them, what I realized was that when I was sitting with the work, after that, post, the fact I realized that I've been living through them, in a sense, reliving my past, and reliving my childhood, you know, as we do as mothers, I write Allison, like, when you're raising your kids, and you're thinking back, like, how was I when I was how I was, you know, how was I raised and I think all of those questions are raised. And, and I think slowly, I was kind of trying to express that through my work with them. And for me, it became essential than to, to, for them to, for me to give to allow them to have a different experience than what I did in the sense not that I had that my parents had anything to do with the poor experience, but just the fact that I had when I was a little girl, I was in Delhi and you know, life is hard there for girls and I think a lot of people are aware of that. And I wanted them to grow up feeling strong about who they were as, as who they are as girls and you know, and I think therefore, for me now it seems that we take pictures together and I take pictures with them for a sense to role model how you know, that they should feel empowered and feeling in being girls and also to because I talk about motherhood and I talk about how how I feel I think it's essential for them to see that it's okay to talk about the hardships of of being a mother and not pretending that all the time that it's all fun and games and that I'm happy all the time. I think it's the role modeling aspect for me is important because I want to raise empowered girls. So when you were growing up in India, you sort of touched on the way that the guilt life for girls is hard. But you've also talked about being a deep thinker, that and your need to express and to I guess work through things you know, you've talked about your your art being a therapy. Did you have any sort of outlet or any sort of creative things that you were doing as you grew up? Or was that not even an option because you were a girl growing up in India. You know, I was very creative actually, when I was young, I actually think most kids are but especially in my house, I think because my father and my mother both were quite creative themselves. But I think they didn't have the opportunities, you know, they had to make a living and, and also for girls, and anyone in general, I think pursuing a career in art is not something that is considered as a career choice. In India at that time, it wasn't I think, now there's one liberal arts school in, in north India, the first one of its kind. So, um, but I did have a lot of artistic pursuits when I was younger I was I painted a lot. I also sang I was, I was in theater. And, you know, I used to act and I had to Hindustani classical voice lessons. So I had a very my extracurriculars, were all creative. There was I really didn't, I was no sports, nothing. It was all creative work. So I loved it. And I think that, even then, for me, art was an outlet I used to make, I remember these massive oil paintings, which I hated eventually, and I would paint all over them. Again, like my canvases. I call my mother the other day, I said, Do you still have any of my canvases, she's like, which ones. But because I was so such a perfectionist, I would paint and then I was like, Oh, this is rotten. And then I would go paint over them again. But I remember feeling like an oddball. Always because I was such a thinker. And remember, I said, I was told I was thinking too much. So I would spend time by myself a lot. And I would paint and I would listen to music and, and draw, and I think I would just spend time with myself a lot. Yeah, so it was it was a way for me to find solace. And, and process things that weren't going right with me as as a teenager or as a as a young girl. Yeah, yeah. Coming back to your photography, I'm really fascinated by some of the work that you've done, I've been having a look on your Instagram account. And I just want to go through a few of the, I guess the titles in and the projects that you've done. There's one that you did, called the COVID family portrait, which I thought was really, really cool. Tell us about that? Well, you know, I mean, do I, what happened to all the mothers during COVID, it was just, and when I say mothers, I don't want to limit it to just women who are taking care of like, I opening it up to anybody who cares for other people, you know, and I just feel like we were all exhausted. And I remember in the beginning, it was, it seemed like a we're on a holiday.It didn't last too long. And very quickly, I realized that this is not looking good, because we had groceries coming into the house. And I remember there was a scare about it spreading from surface since and my husband and I were like washing bags of stuff. And it was just really so really so frightening. And so there was a lot of work and we all know that and I was exhausted, but then I was so angry too. And in the middle, we started we started the project, I think in some in the summer, the one with the girls, and and then I was like wait a second, but I feel so angry. And I didn't I don't think I got to express that frustration until later. When I was like okay, I think I should make a picture about this. And, um, and so but I had to wait to be less upset, I think because in the moment, it would have been I wanted to I wanted it to be just something whimsical because I guess when I make work I also think about it Being somewhat beautiful for me like it has to it has to communicate something essential. But it also, for me, I feel like I needed to be beautiful. I mean, and whatever my concept of beauty is, is what I'm obviously going out here. And so it took me a while to mull this one over. It's like, how should I shoot this one? And I love pink. And it was springtime, when I shot that one. So, you know, then it became a no brainer, fatigued, mom, kids on their devices and father on the phone all day. So that was that. Yeah, so that was a, you know, an interesting one. And I think a lot of people related to it. It resonated with a lot of families. Yeah, so interesting. Shooting that one with everybody. They were laughing my whole family, they were like, are we really doing this? I said, Yeah, isn't this the truth, though? Then the kids looked at me. And they had a nice laugh. And my husband's like, I do not, do not circulate this. If my colleagues see this stuff. I'm like, relax. It's only the truth. You're not You're not showing anything? That's not, you know, real. Yeah, but just on on that, when you said about how you're really angry, and then you sort of waited before you did the shoot? Did you have any sort of idea in your head? How that might have looked if you had a shot at when you were angry? I think the reason, there's two reasons why I think I don't, I don't make work when I'm extremely. When I'm when I'm in that emotion. I think the one reason is that my thinking brain doesn't work quite well. It's a very basic and a very standard, like a really technical reason is that when I'm really emotional, I'm not able to focus very well, if that makes any sense. I wouldn't be able to make it fun for the family is the second reason because I think when I'm taking pictures with the kids, I need them to know that even though that this is something that is difficult, difficult emotion or a difficult message, that we're going to do it in a way that's light and acceptable for the children, because I don't want them walking away feeling that they did something that was upsetting to them. Yeah. And I'm actually overall quite conscious about that when I work with them, because I want them to have good feelings. And I'd be agreeable about the work we make together the work they make with me. Because they're old enough to have that conversation with me. You know, it's not like they're there. You know, when we started, they were I think they were seven and 10. So, so they were old enough to understand what was going on. And so it's always been important to me that they that they're okay with what I'm sorry, that's such a long winded reply to me, no, this is perfect. This is where I'm trying to go with it. I think that you don't just use your children as a prop, you don't just put them there and say, look like this, you're actually explaining to them what the message you're trying to convey so they can understand their part of what you're creating, I suppose. Yes, yes, absolutely. when they were younger, of course, and I was taking pictures of them playing on the beach or doing something like that. It was different, you know, and but I've always been quite conscious about their agency, you know, I want them to have that agency. And I think it's because when I was young, I didn't and I feel also that if I want them to be people who express themselves and ask for what they want, then they then I have to, I have to start giving them that authority in their lives. Yeah, that's so important, isn't it? Yeah. Well, this was, you know, Well, initially, this was a part of community where, you know, my daughters and I made over the pandemic, massive, it was a very big series. And then I think later, I thought about the little bits that we did talking about plastic pollution with a an eye that I did, specifically, specifically, just with the little one. And I saw I pulled it out as another set. But, um, in that we, the little one was had assignment from school, she was very interested in the pollution of our oceans. And she became very upset when she watched the video on the, you know, the Great Pacific Garbage Patch. Yes, yeah. And she couldn't believe it. She was she was beside herself. She is also she's between my two children. I think she's also quite, she feels a lot more she's kind of like, she's kind of, you know, how can I describe, she feels the pain of everybody that lives. And so when she read that, and she learned about all the, the sea animals than the sea life that was being harmed, she was upset. And I think it gave me an opportunity to go in there and, and talk about that a little bit more. And we talked about things like using straws. And using plastic bags, and plastic water bottles. And I said, Listen, you know, I think that we, we can agree that we should refuse the straw when you go to the restaurants and they seem to agree. Yeah. So I think I just use that as a moment for them to educate them and to, to solidify what they learned and, and specifically with a little one, she and I thought let's make pictures with it. Because that's what, that's what I do. Let's make pictures. No brainer. So So I think with the series, we were just trying to communicate how you know, this how a sea creature or a sea animal or a turtle or a you know, a pelican might feel or a seagull might feel when they ingest plastic or and how enlightening the suffocation of the planet to the suffocation of this little girl, my daughter who's in who's in the series. So kind of drawing attention to that subject. And having my daughter who is seven to present the subject to kind of to convey the the the need for people to consider this being you know, a significant issue that our world faces today. Yeah yeah. Yes. Yes, it is. It's absolutely that because I'm I mean, I'm you know, in my case, I don't you know, might be different for but I think mostly it is. It was like that. My mother didn't we didn't ever talk about it. My mother never talked to me about how it was. And I remember I had my my first my daughter and I came back home. Obviously I thought now I know how to feed my child. Because the nurse showed me how to do this. I can do this. And I came home and that night I remember I was sitting on the edge of the bed Then I was sobbing because I had no idea how to breastfeed my child. And I was like, Oh, I have no milk, I have no milk. And I remember sobbing, because I thought, I'm not lactating. And, she looked at me, she says, You have, she just comforted me, and she just sent me back home, give me a big hug and said, you fine, everything's fine. Go back home. But I guess what I was trying to say was that that was the first time I ever felt guilt. I was like, I'm a horrible mother. I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to have milk, which is like, so stupid. Why would I know how to have milk? Why would I? Why would I know this stuff? Like, yeah, oh, no, no, I'm supposed to know it. Because like, this is natural. No, it's not. I don't, you know, so I. Yeah, I think that I'm not even. .. In fact, I'm gonna say this. I don't, I don't think that I ever thought about who I was before I realized didn't know who I was. You know, I mean, it was. And I think the loss happened over a period of time. I remember I quit work when the older daughter was born when our oldest daughter was born. Because I didn't have adequate maternity leave. And I couldn't imagine leaving her in like 40 days and going back to work. So my husband could support us. And I said, Okay, you know, I'm just going to this was in Dubai, and I said, Okay, I'm just gonna stay home. And I was really excited to be a mother, actually, I was really looking forward to it. I always wanted to be a mom. And so this was very exciting time for me. But, you know, over a period of time into the birth of the second girl, I, I started realizing how much I was losing control over elements of my life. Does that make any sense? But my, my little girl was about one and a half, I think it was 2014 some time. And I started to realize that I was so fragmented. I didn't know who I was. Like, who am I, I was always so invested in everyone else's life. And I think we were out to a friend's house. And we were, you know, talking and my friends and my husband, they were engaged in this very riveting conversation about something current, which I was not current with. And I was trying to follow through desperately, the conversation and my kids came over. And as always, you know how they come to you when they my older daughter, and she started, you know, I need to go to the bathroom, I need to go to the bathroom. And so I took her. And when I came back, I was totally lost. And I realized that, in that one moment, it hit me when I realized and probably, you know, you'd wonder why. But I think I'd been feeling it for a while feeling like, I don't fit in feeling like I don't understand what's going on. And I think in that one moment, I was like, Alright, that's it. I need to do something about this. Yeah, I can't, I can't live like a normal like, I don't who am I? I need to find myself again. I think that's what happened. Yeah. And you weren't going to perhaps let the fact that you were a Mum, stop you from that, like in that that actual physical act of your child needing you and removing you from a conversation was sort of an analogy of you've been removed from the world because you are a mother. And if I don't put words in your mouth, but that's how I guess I'm hearing. It's like, that's a really powerful thing to connect and go. Ah, not not liking this. This is going to change. Yeah, yes, yes, absolutely. I think you phrase that very well. And I think I think what happened was that it was a crisis. Really, when I think back at that time, I didn't think I really had to. Even now, like every day that passes, I, I see it better. I yeah, I see I see myself better now than I did then. And I was lost, and I was very unhappy. And only I knew that. And I was I felt guilty that I had everything that I needed. I had a I had healthy children, you know how it is like you have a you have a happy family in a sense and and saying why do I still feel so empty? And and you know, I said, I'm a thinker. So what do I like what's going on? My children are flourishing and I was diminishing that It was something wrong there. And I think I had to acknowledge that. And, and, and I knew, and I knew that it was because I, since I was about 16, I had been working part time. And I think that being dependent, and being and being on, and, you know, kind of losing myself was very hard for me to. And yeah, so I decided that I'm going to take pictures for a living, but I had to wait a bit, I had to wait for the little one to, you know, get to a point where I can kind of pull myself out, it takes time, once you decide, but then by the time you get to it, you know, that you made that decision. And that's, that's the most important step, I think. Because without that, you nothing else come. So, you know, you've got an in your head that this is where I'm going to be this is what's going to happen, and you can make it happen slowly, you know, over a period of time. And, you know, physical barriers, you know, you still have to actually, you know, you've got a child here, you you can't just go off if you sort yourself out while I go do this, you know, physically, you know, limitations that life gives you, but you made it happen. You did it. And that's just tremendous. Just love that. Yeah, yeah, I think that it's, I think I think eventually in life, as you said, it's just essential that we all try, you know, trying is all that is needed. And I think no matter how hard it is to balance your professional life or whatever, your whatever, something for yourself with being a mother, because that's not just who we are. We're so much more than that. And I think that it's very important, even if we have to, even if it takes time, like you said, no matter how long it takes, and we may not get there. But I think as I'm saying this, you know, it might sound crazy, and I mean it get there like, but I think the trying is what is most essential. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah that's. I find it so fascinating that there can be such liberated women that have been raised by women that maybe weren't like that. It's like, you must have got a sense of it from something, you know what I mean? Like, where did that come from? And yeah, yeah, and I just find it. So think that it's very interesting. And I think and I think about that, because I kind of all my role models were women who, who have, you know, mothered in a patriarchal world. And I also mother like that for for many years. I guess the time that I realized I needed to make a change, quite frankly, was when I when I got introduced to I don't know if you know about her birth name is Andrea O'Reilly. She's, she's written. She teaches motherhood studies. In Canada in I think it's York University. Don't quote me on it. But um, she she's written a book about theory and practice of Metro centric feminism. And probably taking this totally off tangent. Oh, no, but I guess what I was trying to say was that I think that when, you know, when I was making work about mothering and motherhood, I became introduced, I got introduced to a whole bunch of, of my other artists who, you know, who I met, just because I, you know, spoke at a conference, I think in 2021. Oh, yeah. Last year. Yeah. And and I gradually learned about these. I mean, I was making look about put the mother first you know, like, let's talk about what it really looks like without knowing that. There are so many people out there who do the same thing. Of course, you there are others. photographers as well, who've done it, who you know whose work I was aware of. But that is a movement now and that more and more we're talking about this, and how important this identity is, and how important it is to kind of live the life that you want your children to have. And I think reading reading the books that have read now, and reading the, you know, opinions of, I think there have been some psychologists who have talked about this, that you have to model the behavior that you expect, and it's not enough to, like I was telling my kids all the time, should never compromise, you should never do this, you know, but it's all just talk unless you actually live it. So I think then it became really important for me to have a life and a career and pursue something that I love to do, notwithstanding my circumstances, and, you know, trying really hard to make way for myself and speak my mind. And yeah, so I guess that's how, I guess we all we all. And also, I think it's when I stepped away from where I was the environment in which I was, which was, you know, India, or, you know, the family that I was surrounded by, that I could actually see it objectively from a distance. And I think that kind of then helps, then it helped me kind of put things into perspective being the distance helped. And yeah, yeah, that from a different angle from a long way away, yes yeah. Alison : I had a sort of similar situation to some degree, when, when my first son was born, and I'd worked full time since I was, I left school, and I actually got a job before I left school. So I basically just went into work, and I'd worked full time till I was 20. He's 29 When I had my first child, so that's a long time. And I was very independent, I was raised. You know, I had a lot of strong, independent women around me that always said, make sure you have your own money, you know, this, that and the other. Even my husband and I, to this day, we still do our own washing, you know, we don't I don't iron his clothes, because I don't know how to because he can do it better than me. You know, we're very, we've got a weird setup, but, but when I actually had my child, and I was sitting at home on the floor one day playing with him. And I had this realization that this is my life now. Like, there is nothing else for me to go and do. I was thinking I've got to what do I need to do? I had this sense in me like, What have I got to do? There was like, you don't have to do this is you now this is this is your life. Now I just sort of sat there and just thought, Oh, God, like I had this. It just made me feel so almost defeated. Like, I'm not independent anymore. You know, I've got this little person to look after who I loved, you know, obviously, but I just thought, oh, wow, this is me now. And I felt really defeated. It was just a really feeling like, Yeah, this is you now like, yeah, and that's horrible to say it out loud. But yeah. And so then I had to make myself find things that would be a part of my life now that would make me feel uplifted and give me the feelings that I had, you know, being an independent woman and going to work. How else could I get those feelings that I wanted to feel? And like and same thing over time? You know, over time? Shweta: Yeah. I mean, I think it's really important to talk about that. And I'm so glad that you mentioned that. And I don't think that it's horrible at all. Like I just I feel like it's so real. Because you're someone right and then overnight, you're not that person anymore. Yeah, it's pretty. It's huge. And it isn't like it's just so why doesn't anybody talk like, why don't we talk about this? It's such a significant thing the mental Oh, no transition. It's so significant. And there's no conversation about it. And I remember like talking to my mom, like, why wouldn't you ever tell me? And she said, Well, there's no, there was nothing to tell you. I'm like 50% of the population go through it. She looked at me. I said, that does not make it any less significant. Hmm. You know, that's the thing that I don't I'm like, Just because people just add weight that 50% is women. If it was men. My elbow hurts. I'm like, just you know. I thought kids out, buddy. You don't get to talk about your elbow. Yeah. Yeah. Like CSC is like, if those 50% were men, it would be a diff. This would be a different. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we would be having like, classes for these things. Like, many are about to pop babies out. Come and roll yourself. Yeah. You. This is how you're going to feel lessons. Yes, yeah. Oh, boy. Oh, you're spot on that you spot on? And I think, yeah, like, you're a little bit crazy there. Oh, no, oh, my god, grab this opportunity to make fun do it. You know, and it just sounds like I'm not a man hater. I love him. You know, it's, it's just that it's just that I feel that it's high time we just, we were, you know, talking about these things and not, and moms and I want to mention this, this. I was reading a book, I think it's this Andrea Riley's book where she takes a little excerpt from Susan Maushart. yeah, who talks about the mask of motherhood, basically, Mask of Motherhood. And it's basically is not just a mask, it's not just a facade of what, you know, a facade that which we hide behind, you know, telling ourselves that everything is perfect, and everything is beautiful. And not only are people around us responsible for that, but it's also us that we have to take ownership for, for putting on that mask for letting it propagate. So I think that it's essential for us to be more honest about how we feel and, and talk about it. And, and it's okay, because we love our kids. You know, it's, we love them. We I mean, if if, if there was a bison coming at us, we would we would be the ones under the bus, not the kids like we would give our lives for our kids. But the ambivalence, you know, there is ambivalence, and it's important to talk about that. And it's human to talk about that. Yeah, yeah. I think the way I sort of make sense of it, like you were saying before, it's meant to come naturally, you know, you're meant to know how to breastfeed you meant to know how to feel you're meant to know what to do. And because I think there's that, that what's the word, expectation that you're meant to know what to do? So everybody just goes up? She's got a baby now, she'll be fine. Because she isn't, she'll know what to do. You know, it's just, that's what I think sets everything up for, for all this, these feelings. Because then when we don't know what to do, you know, we get that guilt we get, we feel like we failed. Alison: You know, I felt like, like I had trouble breastfeeding my first child. Turns out, it's because he was so sleepy. He just wouldn't wake up to be fed. He was ridiculous. And then all of a sudden that six weeks he woke up and we were fine. But in that time, when it was a struggle, I felt like an absolute failure because like, I'm the Mum, I'm the one who's meant to feed this child. And why isn't it happening? It must be my fault. You know? It couldn't be anybody else's fault. It was my fault. You know, this is what we put on ourselves because we're conditioned to think that we were meant to know what to do and it's all natural and normal. And, you know, we've got to Change You're listening to the art of being a mum with my mom, Alison Newman Shweta: I don't know if I'm raising you up to this, but I thought this was a great time to talk about mom guilt. Oh, yes. I just, you know, and I could write a book on this. Because also, like, it's such an awful emotion guilt in itself is such an awful emotion. And, and I'm saying this, you know, off the heels of what you just said, guilt is a socially enforced emotion. And it's, we're raised to experience guilt as a marker that will guide us towards more socially acceptable behaviors. Yeah, all humans feel it. But but because those who mother feel responsible for a huge variety of things. Right, it opens up more avenues for us to experience guilt in our lives as carers. Yeah, absolutely. It's like just so much more that we do and taking care of other people's lives. And, but, but the truth is that the practice of of mothering responds to circumstances in which we raise our children. You know, like, if you're a mother in India, you're different than a mother in the US. Or if you're a mother in the UK, you might be different than somebody who's raising their children in a tribe in Africa, like, or Japan like, I think that motherhood is a socially constructed. Institution. It's a patriarch, I mean, I think it's Adrienne Rich, who, who distinguishes the institution of motherhood, from the practice of mothering. And the fact that mothering is in response to circumstance and to the needs of the place where you're raising your child. And it is, and the institution of motherhood is influenced by the expectations loaded onto us by society, by cultural representations of what mothers should look like, like, oh, you know, you should know how to breastfeed really? No, I don't. Or you know, like, things like that, and, or, like, you know, mothers are supposed to, I don't know, making this up, stay home with the kids not go to work. And but in places where neoliberalism is all the rage, mothers are supposed to go to work and take care of their kids and take care of their husbands and have beautiful, shiny homes, and do all of it all, like, How can you even possibly do it all and feel like and feel like a success? Like something's got to give, you know, like, you're going to understand the problem with this is that no matter how you look at it, because of all of these expectations that we're trying to live up to, we will never feel like successes. You know, it's like we're in a sense, we're set up to fail. Yes, we think, yeah, no, I agree with that. It's interesting. You're talking about? It just reminded me of it. I had a guest on probably, I think it was episode three or four. Her name is Rachel power. And she's written. You know her! I loved that. It did. Oh, yeah, please. Yeah. Yeah. I love that one. Yeah. And she was her book, The divided heart art and motherhood for anyone that's interested. It really goes deep into this. And she the way she described the, you know, the feminists have had sort of led the way for us and told us that we could have it all we could have a job, we could do this, we could do that. Yeah. But then the moment you become a mother, you know, what happens that all of it just disappears. And then you're left questioning yourself, like, I thought I could, I thought I could do this, but now society is going actually no, you can't like, you know, it's really challenging to lose, we lose all the gains of feminism when we become mothers. And, and, and, you know, Andrea O'Rilley talks about this in her book, and she talks about how mothers need their own feminism. We need our own because we have different needs. You know, yeah, women have mothers and mothers have their needs and mothers and mothers including anyone, em slash mothers, mothers, you know, like anybody mother and other who's taking care of, you know, because now there's different ways of being of being a mother and doing the job of mothering. Yeah, but I think, you know, absolutely. Spot on there. You know, that there is no gain when it comes to us and we need we need a feminism of our own innocence. Hmm. So Andrea O'Reilly I'm going to look her up because she sounds like someone that I want to talk to. Goddess. Goddess in the flesh. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think oh my god, it would be quite smashing. If you'd If you can, if you can have her because I mean, I, I just I think there's so much of what I read that opened me up when I read her books. And I think it's it's what I've drawn from what I've drawn from it really is that we have to really be open to talking about this and asking for what we need. And I don't know how far you can go to exert political influence, because at the moment, you know, as far as where I live in America in in, you know, the US, we don't even have universal maternity leave. It's it's absolutely bizarre to me that look, this country does not have. Yeah, it's yeah, it's really, I mean, I remember being here and coming here and thinking, I really honestly think if I was somewhere else, my experience would have been different. And what I realized over here was that women mothers were doing so much, so much, so much. And overwhelmed. And the ones who were home with the kids like me, when I was a stay at home mother for a very long time, I still think I am one, I don't think that's ever going to, you know, my kids are my central focus. But, uh, you know, I, you know, when I went, and those women were so isolated. And yes, you might come out and meet other moms in your coffee chat groups and things like that. But it's, there was no real, like exchange of conversation where you could say that, what do we really need? And how can we get there? I think one cannot really get too far. If, you know, the, you know, you don't have much support. Apparently, we have no political consequence. You know, so yeah. Alison: And honestly, I'm, I'm, I'm not gonna sound like I'm bagging America, do it. I don't know, Australia is an amazing place. When I compare it to other places in the world, you know, we have universal health care. We have paid maternity leave system, we've got paid paternity leave system. And then you think America is supposed to be the best place in the world, the greatest country on Earth, and you think you can't even go to the hospital and get fixed up without paying a bill of 20 $30,000? And I just don't understand, I just think how can you not be up with the times of the world of what people deserve and expect and worthy of, you know, like, how hard is it? You know, we we've got this Medicare system over here where everybody, you know, that earns over a certain amount of money, a portion of their tax goes to Medicare. And it's simple. I mean, and it's not simple, but you know what I mean, it sounds very simple and traightforward. And I know this, there's still issues with our health care system, nothing's perfect, and nothing can ever be perfect. There's always things that can be improved. But I think, God, the amount of times I've taken my children to the hospital in the middle of the night, because they've had a bit of a croupy cough, or they're in pain, and I'm not sure why. If I had a barrier of money, in a way, I would never have done that stuff. And you just think, How can a society a modern society functioning that way? Where money Is the the thing that stops you from taking care of yourself? Shweta: Yes, I think it's definitely something of concern. And of course, they're riding on the backs of so many women who, who, who basically raised the next generation without any support, in a sense. And it's essential, what recently what is bugging me is that we do not have good mental health insurance. And there's an there's, there's a different pandemic now. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and it's, and it's really upsetting that I go to the doctor's like, oh, I need a therapist. There isn't any good therapist that your insurance covers. I don't first of all, I don't even know, good, bad. But I just feel like if I start the process with someone, I should trust that person. And I'm not going to go, oh, after three sessions, you're no good. I'm gonna go. Like it's very hard. I think for people who like for someone who like when I go into depression, or when I have anxiety I have, I've always managed anxiety for many years. And for me to actually pick up the phone and say, I'm not going to call a therapist and make an appointment takes a lot of effort. And when you don't have faith in the system, it just gets so much harder. And then I'm sorry But he who can probably even afford to pay? You know, a few, a few sessions, and I think about all of the millions of people who can't. And it's when healthcare becomes a thing of privilege, it's frightening. Yeah, it is, isn't it? It really is. Yeah, it is. I think it's quite, it's quite saddening, and I think the fact that even if there have been many ways to have physical health care, I think, I think what's really very important is men's mental health care. And which I think we're really far behind on. It's frustrating. Yeah. Yeah. Look, honestly from observing from across the world. It's just it makes no sense. It really makes no sense. I think if you are going to be a capitalist, sorry, sorry. No, go on. Go on. I was just going to continue going. Oh, it makes no sense. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, I can totally understand how it looks from far away. And I mean, I honestly, like I just feel like because we are such a capitalist country, like, the most. Something has to suffer.We're about making money. Yeah, exactly. No, yeah. matriarchal systems of business, where you're, you're basically respected for how much? How much money can you make. And so therefore, in a place like this, where you're somebody who's paying attention, just raising your children, and raising them to be good human beings, and with values and, and all of this, none of that has value? Yeah. You tell the mother that she's noble, yet, you know, you create a circumstance in which she cannot feel fulfilled, because what you really value is money, and money making. Yes. So I think that that's very demoralizing for so many people who, who care for other lives and compromise on, you know, livelihoods. Absolutely. And then you add to that the fact that there's so many makers, you know, that make art or, you know, music or any sort of thing, and because they're not making a living from it, then that is devalued, as well, because you're not making money. So it's less worth than someone who is making money from it. You know, that's a house, I think it's really hard to balance a Korean art and be somebody who's, who's caring to occur. Because just by the nature of art itself, right. Like, it's, it's difficult to know what you're doing and how it's going to be appreciated. And when you're making work, it's so personal, sometimes the work you make, and, and soI think that circumstances, make it so difficult for artists, mothers, and you know, so we need each other basically, you know, we need to lift each other up. And I think that's, yeah, yeah. That's the thing. We've got to feel like, we've got to sort of the change has to come with from within first, I think, because the outside have their own views, and they're the ones continuing to hold these views. But then if Yeah, all the mothers say No, that's wrong. And everyone, you know, revolts against that, if for one have a better word. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know why was saying that, you know, like, you know, that the fact that we actually turn a blind eye to others and things like that, and I remember, it's like, you can obviously see them at drop off cant you see their faces? You know, I mean, sorry, I don't know where that came from. No, but I was just thinking about that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's quite obvious that they need that, you know, and I and I, and I feel sometimes like we live such isolated lives. And the whole idea of the nuclear family and living in you know, a capitalist country and a nuclear family is the fact that you're isolated in your experiences. And, you know, and so, I think that, that just aggravates an already difficult situation. Because I was like, always imagine and fantasize, oh, my gosh, if my mother lived across the door from me, how wonderful would that be? Yeah, I can't handle this get any more "throw". Catch mom catch!! Oh, I love that. But that's true, though, isn't it? It's like in years gone by, you know, this the saying of, you know, it takes a village to raise a child. That was true. That was actually what would happen. You'd have people all around you all the time. And it's like we're forcing people apart seems to be no way the world is really a lot and I I'm glad we're talking about it. It's you know, yeah. He said what's the first steps to making changes? You know, yes, in deciding Think it was to 2021, there was a conference that was held by the University of Bolton and in the UK. nd we talked and the conference was about the idea of the missing mother. That's what the conference title was. And how the mother has been missing in the representation of the representation of the mother has been missing in various disciplines and in art in particular. And the invitation was for, you know, academics and artists, to researchers to come and talk about to talk about the subject and share their work. And yeah, I so I, you know, talked about my experience and how, how, basically, our helped me pivot, in a sense, that's what I used it for. It was my lifeline, to be quite honest. Yeah. And, and it brought me back to life. And, yeah, so yeah, I, I also present people's I talk about, I talk about my experience, I can, you know, that was one conference, I talked. And just quite recently, there was a conference that was held by the Museum of motherhood in Florida. And I also presented a paper and my work at that conference. And basically, the idea is really to, you know, to talk about my experience to meet other, you know, individuals who, you know, have research to share, constantly learning about wonderful issues related to the lives of mothers and mothering and, and, you know, because the representations come from various fields, it's always enriching to learn about, and hear from such people. And I think, because it was always important for me to, I had decided I'm going to talk about this. Because it was important to me, because I felt that I didn't find many people that would talk to me, and how I felt. So I think I, for me, it's not just enough to make, you know, work like photographs and, you know, stage photographs. I also like to present and talk and listen to other people who are doing research in these areas, huh? Oh, good on you. That's great. I'm gonna have to look some of these things up. You've given me so many things. I'm happy to share. Yeah, I'm gonna share some I can share some links with you and right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, thank you, that would be wonderful. I was, I was thinking about this when we talking about the guilt thing. And I thought that a lot of a lot of mothers who end up working, while they're kids a little will will say to me, you know, I, I'm a better mother when I go to work. And I always used to wonder about that. And I still do, and I just feel that I always, you know, you know, consider that you're a better mother if you go to work, but then why do we Why do we always have to make it about the kids? You know, why? Why not for you? Like, I think that because society has so much pressure on us for putting the kids first, you know, so everything that we do is for the kids, but I actually hope that we can come to a point where we can say I go to work or I do this because it makes me happy. You know, because I need it for myself. Exactly. And not and not say because, you know, I'm not saying that's the wrong thing to feel. I'm just I'm just hoping that we could claim we can claim that thing that we do for ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting perspective, isn't it? It's like, we have to be feel good for somebody else, you know, not just for ourselves, if that makes sense, right? Yeah. I yeah, I think that really it is what it is, is that I think, once your mother that that's the only identity that you perhaps feel very strongly about, but we're more than mothers and wives and, or partners and, and daughters, where we, you know, like, individuals? Yeah, no, I haven't heard any dads say that. I'm a better dad when I go to work. LOL Now that the girls are older, I have more time to spend on my practice. But when they were younger, and until almost a year ago, I was doing a lot of housework and Mother work. You know, and I think during the pandemic, I developed a practice to journal every day, and make, you know, Things To Do list because without that, I'm just like, headless chicken all over the place. Um, so, you know, I make a list, and I and I, and the list has a lot of chores on it, it has, you know, freelance work stuff that I have to do on it, it has, you know, make creative, make room for admin work on it, you know, so it's a, it's an extensive list, but everyday doesn't have too much on it. Because I've realized that there's only so much time you have, right, and, but I follow the list, and I, and I put tick marks on the list, like a little child's like, yes, yes. Yes. That's right. Like, it's so satisfying, tick things off. And, and, you know, and then of course, I also write whatever I didn't write down on the list, also, that I ended up doing. Because sometimes once you feel like, oh my gosh, where did my day go? I just did like two out of five of my list. But what was I doing? So I think that earlier, I would feel defeated. But now I just write it all down. So, you know, I end up with some sense of accomplishment, like, alright, I was doing this. And I stopped being hard on myself, really, I think I, I have, you know, take it with a little grain of salt. Okay, I didn't get to doing this today. So I do tomorrow, you know, so I, I think that you also have to build in a little humor in your life. You know, you're like, Okay, I got rejected by this residency. Alright, on to the next one. And I just got, you know, got a rejection letter for an exhibition. And I was really bummed for about, like, I don't know, 16 hours. And then, of course, I have such a wonderful support group. And I reached out to my mentor, and, and I reached out to another mom, and she's like, you know, what, sometimes you just need people to remind you of the stuff that you already know. So it's so important to have like people in your life who will, you know, lift you up? And you know, just give you that little bit of a lift when you need it. Yeah, like, this one's not going. So let's go on to the next one now. So yeah, yeah. And I think the important thing that I, that I didn't do before that I do now is that I asked for what I need from my family and my kids. You know, like, it's not all about them. Obviously, but you know, you're Yes, yes, you're setting them up for failure. I think if you just, you know, I'm the same if I'm in here, editing or recording or something, and someone will come in and say, Mom, can you do this? I'm like, actually, I can't do it right now. But same thing, you know, give me five or 10 minutes, and then I'll do it. You know, and it's like, yeah, that's reasonable. You know, that's a reasonable expectation for your child to to understand that. That is actually okay. You know? Yes, absolutely. You know, I think that in the beginning, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't do that at all. And I had, right, I was like, I and I, and I still know a few mothers who, who live like that. And, and, you know, it's hard, because then you it's said, what about me? Exactly. And I think that that question is very important. You know, what about me? What about what I want? And I think that you definitely cannot hope to achieve anything for yourself, if you don't set the boundaries. So that I think that's pretty. And it's good for them. I think that the children also will learn when they if they choose to become mothers, that, that it's okay to do that. Yeah, I remember when I, when I was little, my mother would, my mother would be like, I'm drinking tea right now come back to me later, you know, so she was definitely not there. Because, you know, she also worked and, you know, she was not there for me all the time. But she was lovely mother, and she still is. And I think that. But you know, I kind of got into the trap of saying, oh, whatever you want, guys, whatever you want. But I think the significance. Yeah, so just simple things, writing everything down. I journal every day. And I make lists. And I asked for what I want. And I also think that everybody's experience is different of mothering. And what they need is different. So I think the real need is to sit with oneself and ask oneself, what do I need? What do I really need? And go for it? You know, like, you matter? I think that you matter, and you're important. And you know, I'm just asking for what you need is important, because because a lot of times we don't ask because we're afraid of we're afraid of what might happen. You know, what the answer might be, but I think that it's we don't mothers don't really ask the things we just give and I think that's, it has to you, we have to ask for what we want. Yeah, I agree. I think I think we're also afraid of inconveniencing other people, because the mums job is supposed to be making everybody happy and making everything good and right for everyone. But then if we sort of upset the applecart so hang on a second. Yeah. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot to be said. Yeah. And I think, and I think the other thing is that there's no straight path to this. And we all have to pivot. I think because of what we do, and the nature of what we do is, and every moment presents itself differently, sometimes you don't know, like, suddenly my kid is going to fall from the swings, and I have to rush like, this has happened right? With you, too, I'm sure where you have to rush your kids to the doctor, like drop everything and go. And usually it's me because my husband has a corporate job, and I'm closer to the kids locationally You know, school is closer to, to our house than it has to his office besides, you know, he's in calls and, and, you know, like, it's my primary responsibility. So I have to drop everything and go. But, you know, in the beginning, I would be like, quite, you know, helicopter in a sense, I would be hovering around them making sure like going overextending myself and, and I still do those things, but I don't, but I but I have, you know, everything what i've what I figured is that everything will be all right. You know, eventually, you know, like, we, you know, like, we don't have to lose sleep over every second of the kid's life, like, you know, it will be alright, and I think that I have to be ready to pivot and to take everything, you know, lightly laugh off some serious things in life. And the kids also learned to do that with me. So now, they also learn to pivot so I think it's a it's a work in progress. You know, it's still hard but we make it work, and I'm good on you know, yeah. So if you've got anything you're working on anything coming up that you want to share with the listeners to sort of look out for any, any sort of projects or work? well, you know, these days I'm I'm working on a new series, I haven't started posting that on Instagram yet, I've suddenly feeling quite protective of the work that I'm making, you know, because everything is just so personal. And it comes from a place of deep feeling. And I you know, that with this particular work that I'm making with the girls. They'll walk up to me, and they'll be like, so what are we doing today? It's funny, they'll come to me. And you know, the way I've trained them, so Well, I feel like they'll come to me and say, so what are we shooting today? Because when I set the lights up and things, and then I'll say, and I'll tell them, then they say, then the next question is, so what is that supposed to mean? Like, do you really have to know every time? But that is absolutely I love it. It's amazing. And sometimes I'm like, can we just get through it? And then I'll tell you, No, Mama, how about you tell it tell us first? And then and then well, I'm like, Okay, fine. Stop being lazy. And like, so I tell them? And then and then my next question always is, are you okay doing this? And then they'll say yes. Or they say no. But usually they'll say yes. Because I'm, you know, I'm quite clever in the sense that I don't, I don't pursue subjects that I know will put them in a spot, you know, because I don't want because they will they. I revere my kids. I mean, this might sound crazy, but I have this deep reverence for them. It's not just love, I, I really respect and look up to them for so many things. Like, they're just so wonderful. And they're so innocent, and they're just so loving and so inclusive. And so they're there, you know, when they're agreeable to do something, and when, when they're not, they will still look at me and think, Is mom gonna get hurt? Because I say no. So sometimes, they will say yes, and I don't want that. Because I don't want that. I don't want them doing that. So I'd be like, Are you sure? Anyway, so So these days, I'm making something, and I'm, they both are growing older, and my older daughter has started her periods, and the little one, you know, she, she's now nine. And she suddenly changed over the past year or so. And, you know, like, how we talk about kids having coming to the age of reason, you know, I was the kind of, I think it's kind of between seven and nine years old. And she, she knows her place in the world, and she knows, you know, if and when, you know, consequences, and of actions, and good and bad, and morality, and she's quite in that space right now, where she's thinking about all these things, and she's no longer a child. And, and I can see that they're becoming more independent. And I've become obsessed with, with time, I feel I can feel my biological clock. And I'm so concerned with time, and it's impermanence, and how my daughters have my time in their hands, you know, and the fragility of this moment, and how little we think of now, you know, like this moment. And I become so conscious that they're letting go of me in so many ways. And so, so I'm thinking, I, I want to let go, but I also want to hold on to them. And, you know, I'm aging, and they're blossoming. So these things are happening all at once, and I'm thinking of all these things, and you know, they're maturing, I'm happy, but I'm also I'm also Chad melancholic, you know, at the loss of their childhood. And I'm relieved that I have more time, but I'm wistful for the tender moments that I've spent with them when they were little. So there's this we're in this liminal space, and I'm curious about it. And that's what I'm hoping to explore. Hmm, yeah. Theres this song. One of my guests, wrote. Jen Lush she was in one of the episodes last year and she wrote this song and it started off with I want to put you in glass. And that was the way she wanted to stop her children from growing and it was just this. When I when I heard that I was like, oh, you know all the pulls on the heartstrings like oh my gosh, my babies are growing up, you know, and it's just you just want to stop like every, like, every time you look at them. They're growing. They're getting older, every moment that goes past they're getting older and you just think no, slow down. No, no, it's Yeah. Yeah, it's, it is quite a difficult. Every, every every time as the ages is presents something different to us. And a different volley of emotions again, you know, like, I feel like it never ends. It's like, I need to breathe. Like, wait a second. Can I ever be happy? Like my kids are not finally growing up. I don't have to clean their bums. I don't have to stand in attendance. I don't have to say, now write this down. And like I'm like, oh my god, can I just do that again? Lovely. I'm looking forward to seeing how that presents itself. That will be very exciting to see. Oh, yeah, I love that. Let's listen this has been a delightful discussion. I've it's been beautiful. Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast and thanks for joining me. It really is a pleasure to have you. This episode contains discussion around anxiety and depression, and was recorded prior to the United States Supreme Court's overturning of Roe versus Wade. Music you'll hear today is from Australia New Age trio, LM J, which features myself my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John, and is used with permission. I hope you enjoy. Thank you so much for coming on today. It's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you, Alison. Yeah, it's lovely to meet you. Likewise, you at the moment you. You're in New York City. Is that right? Yes. Yes. I live in I live in Manhattan. Wow. So like right in the thick of it? Yes. Yes, it can get busy here. So you're a photographer, but not the sort of necessarily the style of photography that most people would think of when they think of a photographer. So can you share with us what your sort of style is and and perhaps why you do do things the way you do? So well, I when I started taking pictures, it was before the children were born. And I remember I bought my first camera in actual camera in Dubai in 2008. And at that time, I worked for love. Thanks. And the other one I want to ask that is, you did a plastic series? I'm glad you brought up about that, what you're just saying about the identity, because that's something I really love to explore with moms on this show is how, how violently your life changes and how you see yourself changes. You know, and that analogy you said, Have you felt like you've been hit by a truck. You know, that's literally what it is, isn't it? If you just Yes, you just get belted. I'm having tea right now, give me 10 minutes, come back to me in 10 minutes. Because, you know, they see us and they just come running into the room is like, I need this right now. And I look at them, and I'll say, you need to give me 10 minutes, and I will come to you. Or, you know, whatever you need to do you need me to do per posted on my computer. So they write what they need. And they stick it on my screen at the bottom of my on the bottom of my computer screen. And so that's like a reminder for me. Alright, so when I get done with my task, then I do what they need me to do. So I think that I've built up a system where the kids also know now that they just can't walk into the room and declare, I need grilled cheese right now. I'm like, sorry, you're not gonna get it. You need to wait. Yeah, you're just asking for things. Yeah, I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with setting your boundaries with your children. I think throughout my work in childcare, I think parents have this idea that they have to be at the beck and call of their children. They have to keep the children happy. And you're actually an you know, you've you've you've got to set them up for for the real world to like, you know, when they get out in the world. The world isn't gonna stop for them when they want something, you know, I think it's actually responsible of a parent to SET set boundaries and expectations around where children fit into the world and not in a kind way. Wipe your bums. But can you hold my hand? Exactly. Yeah, it's just like, it's it's it's a ride. We're on a roller coaster here. I guess. Yeah. I'm you know, it's just something all of us. I think as you know, like mothers, we go through this and it's, it would be interesting to see what response I get once I put the work out there. But right now I'm, I'm just quietly making it. It's been fun. Yes, it has. Thank you. You have something good to say, you know, one with and oh, so nice to talk to you. My lovely. I've just had such a lovely chat. I get so much out of everyone that I speak to I take different things from it's really it's such a wonderful thing, personally, that I love to do. I just love to talk to people and, you know, challenge ideas. And yeah, why? Why did we do this and all this. I just love it. So yeah, thank you for indulging. What you do is wonderful. I think I think what you're doing is so significant. And it's so important. And so I'm so I'm so happy to be here and talk to you. Thank you so much for forgiving me for giving me your time. Oh, nice. Thank you. Thank you. It's been lovely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Carmen Bliss Australian holistic counceller S1 Ep17 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts **Please be aware this episode contains discussion about stillbirth, miscarriage, grief, panic attacks, PTSD and anxiety. Carmen opens up very honestly and at times graphically about her stillbirth experience and procedures in the aftermath** My guest today is Carmen Bliss, holistic counsellor and mother from Mount Gambier South Australia. I invited Carmen onto the podcast to share her knowledge and expertise as a holistic counsellor, particularly around the areas of identity and mum guilt - that we discuss in each episode. Carmen founded and runs her own business, Inspired Wellbeing Co. providing support for individuals, couples, parents and workplaces. What follows today is an honest and open discussion about self worth, identity, setting boundaries and the ego, where Carmen not only shares her expertise, but shares her own experience with parenting, loss and finding your true calling in life. Connect with Carmen here - Connect with the podcast here - Music used with permission - Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest today is Carmen bliss, holistic counselor and mother from Mount Gambier South Australia. I invited Carmen onto the podcast to share her knowledge and expertise as a holistic counselor, particularly around the areas of identity and mum guilt that we discuss in every episode. Carmen founded and runs her own business inspired wellbeing co providing services for individuals, couples, parents and workplaces. What follows today is an honest and open discussion where Carmen not only shares her expertise, but shares her own experiences with parenting loss and finding your own true calling in life. Please be aware this episode contains discussion around stillbirth, miscarriage, grief, panic attacks, PTSD and anxiety. Carmen opens up very honestly and at times graphically about her stillbirth experience and the procedures in the aftermath. Today, I'm really excited to welcome a very special guest, a guest with a little bit of a difference. Welcome Carmen bliss, who's from inspired wellbeing code, you met Gambia thank you for coming on, Carmen, it's so lovely to have you. Thank you. It's, um, pleasure to be here. So I sort of thought I approached you because I've probably recorded 20 or so of these now, these chats with these artistic moms. And I have some particular topics that I love talking about. And they're the responses, I get a very different but quite similar in a lot of ways, but slightly different. And I thought, so I thought it was about time I spoke to someone who's got some expertise in this area, he could perhaps help shed a little bit of light on what's going on for moms when they're experiencing these things. Maybe some sort of ways we can look at it differently. To help us through before we delve into all of that nitty gritty stuff. Let's chat about you for a little while Carmen. So tell us a little bit about yourself and, and the business that you run and how you got into all that sort of stuff. Well, I probably fell into this profession, it was not a planned profession, my personality type, which you'll learn, I love all that sort of stuff. So as we go along our discussion, you'll pick up on bits and pieces that I'm really passionate about, including understanding personality types and stuff. My personality type is quite I don't want to use the word rigid, but it but it is like it's quite structured. I like structure I you know, like numbers, data, all that sort of stuff, which people who know me probably think, oh, I don't think so. But that that is the the crux of my personality. So I was never going to be a counselor. So even when I was working as a student counselor, I said I'm never training in counseling ever. It's not my thing. I don't like it, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And then here I am, with my own piece was in counseling. Go figure. Um, so yeah, so I sort of got into the business because of a few personal situations that kind of changed my view on the world. Like it was like a not like a wake up moment or I suppose it was a wake up moment, but like a daunting period. And then if that's the right word, but you kind of know what I mean. And what you think okay, life's not as black and white as I've made it out to be for the last 36 years or 35 years or whatever, it was 32 years you know, I was very black and white before before that point. So yeah, here I am doing counseling which I never thought I would be doing. Yeah, so family I've got a lovely husband who we've been together nearly 20 years I think next year, which is seems like a long time. I'm still learning things about him every day. Which is probably a good thing because it keeps me interested. I've got two children. And Harrison he just turned 13 on the weekend. Lucky he's a pretty quiet child. So we haven't really hit that crazy teenage stage yet. I mean, there are, you know, the smelly bedroom and not showering and the greasy pair of the pimples and stuff. But yeah, nothing outrageous, which I'm thankful for. And then I've got my daughter Anna, who's just turned seven in August. And yeah, God help us when she turns 13. Because it's a completely different story. I've been managing her behavior since she was two. So just yeah, she she, her here as a teenager, I'm just pretty apprehensive about that. We'll deal with it when it comes. And then. So my family journey hasn't been like an easy one, obviously. So we had Harrison, he was not planned. So I was only 25 not really thinking about kids, you know? And then Oh, hello, I'm pregnant. But we owned our own house. And you know, we're in a really good position. We have jobs, and you know, everything like that. So yeah, wouldn't change it for the world. Absolutely. So then, when Harry was about three, we started trying for another baby, and had three miscarriages sort of in a row. Didn't really get to the point of testing, like, what, why there was a few things like to think it's progesterone levels, and just little things like that. But then fell pregnant with Anna after that, and she was just like, a normal, healthy kind of pregnancy. So it was, yeah, it was a bit weird. And then we lost a baby through stillbirth when Anna was two, so that that kind of put us you know, you know, the whole family situation number one, like that was unplanned. So you know, you have those freak outs, like, Oh, my God, like, Baby number three, what the hell are we gonna do? You know, I love my job, I don't think I want to take maternity leave, you know, all that sort of stuff. At the time, I was earning more than Brad. So you know, tossing up? Does he be the stay at home dad, and all of that sort of stuff. So you kind of go into this whirlwind, and I went into denial. So I think because it rocked our world so much. And because Anna was still only like one and a half to when we fell pregnant. But yeah, with the third baby. And so went into kind of like, I don't think I want this baby. Like, you know, there was all that, like self talk. Like, I don't know how I'm gonna handle three kids, you know, and as Harry was this perfect textbook, baby, you know, that slept through the night and his cot from day one. You know, he was just like this perfect baby. And then Anna came, and it was like, holy shit. Why don't we? why don't why did we choose to go back? No, she's got the biggest heart. But the biggest personality? So. Yeah, so she's totally and I'm trying to manage a two year old and then yeah, we bang. We're pregnant again. So yeah, I felt in those early stages, I felt like I didn't want to be pregnant, I, you know, was in a lot of denial and stuff. And then when we went to our ultrasound and at 20 weeks and found out that we lost the baby, then all the guilt started. Because you know, you think you think was that? Like, did I do this by wishing it away? Did I do this by thinking that I don't want this baby, you know, all that sort of stuff sort of starts to creep in. But luckily, I've got a really, really good support network around me. But it wasn't easy. I don't think anyone tells you about these things. So like I had to give birth. So so it's like no one tells you that. You know, do you get what I mean? Like now you think but you know, people say oh, you know, we've had a stillbirth, whatever, whatever. Yeah. But they don't actually say, Oh, you have to give birth. You know, like the follow up stuff. Yeah, so I was completely shocked by that. Because I was like, oh, like, I don't know whether I can do that. I don't know whether I can, like, you know, go into a labor room and give birth to a baby that's not alive. You know, like that. That was a really big fear. And I think that's the point where I really broke down. Like when the doctor told me that I had to give birth like I was kind of not in shock. But yeah, in I don't know. Yeah, it would be shocked, I suppose. And I hadn't showed any full on emotion yet. Obviously, it's a whirlwind. But when the doctor said, and I was so lucky, I had an amazing doctor. And it was, you know, when people were there, the right people at the right time. She was One of those people because she was literally only my doctor for six months. And it was that period where I got pregnant, and then lost the baby. And she was there through the whole thing. And then she was gone. She just left town. So it's like, so weird. She was she was obviously there for the right time, you know, the right time for me. So she was amazing. And she was really comforting and talked to me through the whole thing. And yeah, and the midwives at the hospital were also really, really amazing. So I feel like I had, like, the support that I that I needed, like, throughout that whole journey, even though it's you know, it's horrible. It's I'm probably speaking about it. Maybe some people think candidly, but I've processed a lot of that stuff. You know, I've worked very hard over the last five years to, to process, all of that. So, you know, and had intense counseling myself, and to sort of work through all of that. And but yeah, the midwives were amazing. And I just remember this, this one, there was two main midwives and there was one whose name was Gloria. Oh, yeah. You know, her. I know, Gloria. Yeah. How amazing is she? Yeah, she, she, I think she's still working up there. Like she's been. But yeah, I think she just recently retired, oh, God, cuz she was there. When we had ally eggs. She's like, like, I've got seven years between my two. So she was there when I had Alex 13 years ago, nearly 14 years ago. And then she was still there. When I had Digby, and we were just like, Oh, my God. And actually, I'm digressing now. But she was the first person I told about my, when I was up there, my postnatal depression was coming back. And so I just trusted her so much. She was just like the most like, she'd just come in. And she'd just sit down and have a chat. And my husband thought she was awesome. Like, she was just here. So like, Gloria was there for the first half of the labor. And she was just like, this guardian angel, I suppose, you know, that had been sent to nurture me in that time. And, you know, she she was telling me about how, you know, how many of the births that are not live for her, you know, in her whole career standard? Yeah. So she, she told me about, you know, all the pregnancies and births and everything that she had come across in her career and what her life was like, and, yeah, that she didn't have any children of her own. I think she was, like, am I right in saying Not, not a nun, but something similar to that, like a sister or something? Yes, she was. She was a sister. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she she served, you know, in that way, sort of got in that way? I suppose. So yeah. And then there was another lady Fiona, who, who actually was there when I when I birth Lucy. And she was amazing as well, like, she was just so amazing. But no one tells you about all this stuff. And you know, that I think that's the hardest thing that I found is, you know, no one tells you those steps. And I don't know, maybe it's better to be naive. Yeah, I don't know. And I think the hardest part of that, because when you're in labor, like they drug you up. Yeah. Like you can say no, obviously. But yeah, that emotional and you know, you just want to be a bit numb. Which was probably, I don't know, I don't think I would have changed that. Because you just want you don't want any pain, you know, it's not like you're going to be rewarded at the end, you know, you just want to be numbed out for a little bit. But probably the hardest part of that, of that whole process was like walking out with without a baby. So like that, like you're in the maternity ward with with everybody else, and you have to exit that maternity ward with no baby. So that was probably, I felt like I was like the walker shame almost like people were looking, you know, I don't know, it was just a really weird experience. And quite confronting, like, that was pretty, you know, because, you know, you imagine, you know, and because I've had two children, you know, I have experienced this before, you know, that feeling when you're taking your baby home, and you're like, you know, it's just such a big moment of putting the baby in the capsule and getting it in the car. And, you know, all of that. So yeah, it was like the complete opposite of that. So yeah, it was really weird. And Gloria sent me and it's like, blew me away. She sent me a postcard Exactly a year later, on the exact date that I gave birth, saying, like, how she was still thinking about me and that she was in some conferences and midwifery conference and yeah, she was thinking about the date and yeah, like I bawled my eyes out. When I received that in the post because I was like, oh, How does she have time to even remember these dates? And she said like it was on the date. So yeah, I keep that because Oh, yeah, I made you cry now. Oh my Well, sharing that yeah honestly. Bla bla bla so I lean I, it's not that. And I know people talk about grief differently. And I know that it's very different for every individual. You know, I've worked with grief in my counseling work, you know, I understand that people handle grief and loss differently. But I had a period of denial, not denial of what had happened. Denial of my feelings. You know, like, I just shut them all the way. I didn't want to process them. Yeah, so that was for about a year. Then, then it came like that, then all of the emotions came and I had to get counseling and stuff because I ended up with post traumatic stress disorder, because I had quite an invasive operation afterwards. Which looking back now I if I could preach one thing to to young women, or young mums even is make informed decisions about your, about your own body. So I was tucked into a procedure and ablation of the uterus when I didn't actually need it. And it was one of the most invasive procedures that I've had, because it was really like, extremely painful. And now I don't, and I can't have children anymore because of it. And it was quite soon after that stillbirth. So the gynecologist who I won't name shouldn't not like they shouldn't be making people who've just gone through that make those decisions. Yeah. It's not an informed decision. How can you make a decision like that when you're not in the right frame of mind? And the same as Brad, so he was booked in for a vasectomy? Already. Like before, we found out that we were pregnant with Lucy. And so then all of this happened, and it was about three months later. And he was still booked in for this discectomy. And, you know, like, we kind of discussed it and everything but looking back like you don't i don't know you can't you're not in the right frame of mind to December the never gonna have children again. I mean, I didn't find pregnancy easy. So I'm not sure that I would have gotten back for another pregnancy anyway. But it's nice to have the option, isn't it? Yeah, that's thing, isn't it? Yeah. That's that's quite appalling. Isn't it to fronted with that? It's such a when you're so vulnerable, and obviously not having the time to, like you said, to find out what you need to find out and the ramifications of this. Yeah, that's That's appalling. Yeah, so yeah, you're working through that as well. As Yeah, so yeah, yeah. So that's a grief and loss in itself. Because, you know, as a woman, we have periods, and then there was no longer so that's a that's a grief and loss in itself. And yes, it's fantastic. Not bleeding every month. But also, I feel like something's missing. Some months, you know, like, that's a process that we get used to it. It's a womanly thing. Yeah, it's spiritual and all the rest of it. So yeah, I ended up with PTSD, because that operation didn't go as planned. And a few few hiccups went wrong when I was going under, and yeah, so then I was presented with, you know, having these panic attacks, you know, multiple times a day and just felt completely out of control for probably three, three to four, three years, probably three, three solid years. Oh, wow. I didn't Yeah, I didn't want to go on medication or anything, because medication has its place. Absolutely. Like I am not anti medication, but for me and my body and knew that it wouldn't be the right choice. So and only because I'm so sensitive to all of that sort of stuff. Like I know that my body would have probably reacted, you know, unpleasant way rather than helping the situation. So yeah, I just got intensive intensive counseling and yeah, worked through it that way. And I mean, I still have anxiety a little bit and still moments. have panic every now and again. But it's pretty much under control at the moment. Yes, my family laughs and Poor Anna, she was too when all this happens. So I feel like we're having a lot of issues with her at the moment. And I feel like some of it has contributed to my probably lack of emotional availability around that time. All right, well, I'm gonna take you back right back to the start. You refer to yourself as a holistic counselor, can you share what that holistic element means? And how that changes? How you approach your work? Yeah, sure, um, I like the word holistic, because I don't believe counseling is just of the mind to holistic when when you talk about counseling is mind body spirit. So not only are we looking at what's going on in the mind, but the mind doesn't operate separately from the body, and separately from spirit, or energy, and genetics. So holistic integrates everything. So, you know, not only are we looking at what thought patterns and, you know, are detrimental to your mental health? Well, no, I don't even like the I know that the word mental health is, is recognized. And I don't know what else I would call it. But it's not just mental health. It's like Holistic Health, because every little bit contributes to the mental health. So when I practice, I look at the people's lifestyle, like are they sleeping? Because sleep has an a massive detrimental impact on mental health? Are they really low in vitamin D? I mean, I can't test that I'm not a medical doctor. But I will always suggest that they go and have a look at their blood work. Because if they're hugely low on vitamin D, or hugely, you know, they're not taking magnesium or just a really simple stuff, then that affects your mental health. You know, are they having bodily symptoms that they think are normal, but actually contributed to their mental health? Like their nervous systems on regulated? And then the energetics of it, you know, are you in a environment where there's yelling and screaming every day or, you know, that plays a part in your spirit and your energetics, which then plays a part on your mental health? You know, so that's kind of the holistic thing that we look at. It certainly is all it all. Everything affects everything else, doesn't it? It's not. Like I think the Western doctors way of treating the what do they do they treat the symptoms instead of treating the cause? It's like, they just look at one thing in isolation. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I think that's probably what spurred me on to, to look at the holistic stuff is, you know, I had like, some really significant sort of adrenal issues, that the Western doctors ah, made me feel horrible. You know, they they made me feel like I was making it up. Yeah, because they didn't have they didn't have an answer for it. So it must have been. Yeah, it must just be all in your head. You know, it takes me back to the description, when psychology was first around of hysteria. You know, like so, you know, women who are young mothers would be diagnosed with hysteria, which means, these days that they're not coping, you know, they might have postnatal depression, or they might have really bad anxiety. But back then, it was just labeled hysteria, and I feel like that has, you know, in the western Doctor world, they don't use the word hysteria, but basically, I was told that I was tired, or bored housewife. And I was working for 40 work. So yeah, that's what made me so passionate about holistic. Hmm. You'd never say that someone in a medical setting these days? No, and I think because psychology was so new. You know, like, it's such an emerging field and the I'm sorry if I bore you with the details of the history and stuff. Like that sort of stuff. but back then they didn't believe that the brain like they didn't know about neuroplasticity. So if someone was in that state, you know, quote unquote hysteria, or you know, soccer or whatever, they didn't understand that that could be changed. They just labeled that person and put them incident in, in an institution. And they never got the chance to actually heal. Yeah, so all these people who were labeled, you know, hysterical or psycho or, you know, needed to be institutionalized. And they didn't believe that the brain could change. So that's where the research is now that the brain can change. And we can mold, mold, neural pathways to be in a better shape than what they were, you know, when we were suffering from mental health or experiencing anxiety or depression or whatever. Yes, you've definitely come a very long way, very, very long. So the there's two, two topics that I love to talk about. And so they are the mum guilt, which I like to put in inverted commas because and the second one is identity. So the way that when a woman becomes a mother, how they see themselves changes. So well, let's let's do the mum guilt first. So, do you have any idea? I'm really intrigued by this? And I'll ask you this question. And you might not know and that's fine. But where did this term come from? Like, how was it created? Is it been like a social media hashtag like? Or is it like people who have to label things we have to call something we have to have a term for everything? What What's your take on that? I think it's, and I don't know, I only know I'm not an expert, or I don't know, like, this is only my opinion. One person. I feel like it's a product of social media, the media. Because when, like when I had my son, I was 25. Like social media had only just started because don't forget, I'm old. I'm, and I wasn't on social media. I didn't look at websites. I just parented from my heart, with my mom's advice, kind of like the traditional way that people would parent without all of this outside influence. And the only time I experienced mum guilt was when I put my son in childcare. And he didn't, he didn't gel with the carer for the first probably three months. But I don't, I can, I felt guilty I did, I felt guilty for dropping him off there. Because he wasn't settled. You know. I didn't feel guilty about going to work because I knew in my mind that without all this external pressure, and whatever else to be a perfect mum, because that wasn't around then you just did the best record that I needed to go back to work for my own sanity. And I did not feel guilty about that. So that was it when Harry was 10 months old. I'm not a maternal person. I'll be the first to say, I'm not a I'm not a person who's in an apron baking a cake, breastfeeding their child at the oven. Like I'm not that person. I work I thrive off work. I thrive off intellectual stimulation. Just being a mum is not enough for me. So never once did I feel guilty to for going to work and making that decision back then. And I did feel guilty for for because my child was quite upset in those first three months. But you know what, once we found the right fit, once we found the right person to care for him in that childcare setting. He absolutely loved it and he thrived. So I didn't have that. That my mum guilt. So I feel like mum guilt is a product of everybody else's judgment of what society should or shouldn't do or be. And then we take that on that we take that those feelings on from externally internally And then they manifest. And I don't think that's right. Oh, yeah, I don't think it's as a man, like, you're going to be very different to me, you know, do you get what I mean? Like, we can't see a social media stereotype of a mum and say, we all have to fit in that round peg, when we're triangles square diamond. That makes sense. And I can sort of sense perhaps the connection, then you talked at the beginning briefly about the personality types. So it's like, everyone will experience things different because of the way just the way they are. Don't get me started about the patriarchal stuff that goes, get started on it. Because I would call myself like a feminist because I hate patriarchal systems, I, it actually makes me feel physically sick to my core. And I don't know whether that's, you know, from my past life, so, you know, whatever happened there, or because I've always had great men figures in my life, my husband is like, absolutely amazing. Like, honestly, like, we share hubs in everything, like, he comes in, and he does the dishes, or I'll go outside and weed the garden or, like he is, yeah, really, really amazing. I'm so blessed to have someone like that. So it's not because I haven't had these, you know, beautiful men, male figures in my life. It's just the systems. And what a mum, the word Mum, I suppose the peaks is, you stay at home, you look after the kids. And that's it. You do all the stuff around the house, you do all the washing. And I feel like that. That's society's mo of what a mother should do look like, etc. We shouldn't be going to the gym because mums shouldn't be doing that we shouldn't be spending money on ourselves because, you know, earning any money. You know, like, all of that is bullshit. Like, I really despise that patriarchal kind of thing. And that is sometimes where I think this mom guilt comes from, like it's generational trauma of having this patriarchal system. That is outdated. And really sexist. Hmm. Yep. So that's the other part of it. Yeah. So it's almost like, because women men the way that they mother is changing. They've got to be reined back in. So they've got to be made to feel guilty to pull them back to this the traditional way that they're supposed to supposed to be mothering. I've used a lot of lately. Yeah, absolutely. And why aren't we, you know, why aren't big organizations, including family daycare as part of their well being program at work? So mothers can return to work when they want to? You know, why do we have waiting lists of hundreds of children at childcare? Like, why aren't we doing something about that? You know, so women can actually get back into the workforce, and do what they love? Or, you know, you get what I mean? It's a big problem. Oh, yeah. So I guess then people experience it differently then, because of how they were parented, what their role model then was from their mother, maybe they feel guilt because they're doing something different to their mother, or what do you think about the way that perhaps the other women and other mothers? What's their role in driving this as well? Because I feel like, I know, we're getting better at it. But I feel like there's a lot of judgment, from mums to other mums and women that don't have children, they're judging mothers. We've got a lot of work to do there, too. I feel Do you agree with that? Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And it really stems back to the basic values and beliefs. And yes, role models come into the values and beliefs of people. So we grow up with a certain set of values. So our core values pretty much don't change throughout our lives. They might change slightly. And, and if you have ever come and done any of my counseling, you know, come and done counseling with me. You know, there's a few key things that I bang on about which probably people get sick of hearing. And one of them is values and beliefs. Because values are our core values. So it might be you know, a set of values that don't change that inherently ingrained in us from from our parents or whatever. And then we have beliefs on top of that. So values are things like, like family, so like, you know, I value family a lot, because you know, I'm very close to my family, I get a lot of support from my family, I love my family dearly. So that is one of my core values is having family around me and having them support me. And, you know, if I go a month without seeing my mother, I'd probably, you know, gets a bit tense, you know, we have a really good relationship. So that's a that's like a core value. And then we have these beliefs on top of that. So beliefs are a little bit more they are what can be changed and influence. And as we grow and evolve, they change and open and all the rest of it. So I feel like everyone has that. But what we need to work on and you talk about moms being judgmental towards other moms, etc. is actually a lack of awareness for our, and I'm going to speak in riddles, probably. Yeah. So pull me up if you don't understand anything, because probably I need to explain it a bit more. But the opinions and judgments of other people towards other people, whether that be mums to mums etc, or non working or non mothers to mothers is a lack of self awareness and reflection. about unconscious bias. Yeah, explain that a little bit. Yeah. So I'll try and put it in simple terms. Okay. So if we think about a drug addict, right? Some people might think that it's their fault, that they can stop anytime that they want, that they have control over what they're doing. And they want to penalize that person. I think that, for me, is a underdeveloped opinion of a drug drug addict, because that has unconscious bias behind it. They don't know what that person has gone through in the in the startup their life, to the trauma that they've experienced, and the depth of the pain and emotional pain that they're trying to numb or, or whatever it might be. They don't need prison, they need healing. So that would be being aware of the unconscious bias, because once upon a time, I would have been the person that said, drug addicts need to go to prison, because they're just ruining life for everybody else, you know, like criminal criminal behavior, etc. But because my beliefs have evolved, I can now see a hole a picture. So instead of looking through a pinhole, we're now looking through a 20 centimeter diameter window. So it kind of makes sense. Yeah. So it's like you, maybe because of the way you grew up, or the way you your parents views where you've got that in. And so you have that until that time where you have whatever happens in your life, for whatever reason, or you start to educate yourself, whatever, you can change your opinion. So that unconscious bias is what you just have in New necessarily without realizing that's just how you see things, I guess. Is that Yeah, yeah, it's funny. Yeah. And there's a there's a saying, and I've got to get it right. You don't know what you don't know. Until you know more. Yeah, so that information, like informed like those informed beliefs. And not everyone wants to have informed beliefs or decisions. It's hard. It's actually very challenging. And it's sometimes it's just easier not to. Yeah. Because you're not going to change somebody else to change their beliefs. Unless they're coming to you because they want to change, which is in my holistic counseling situation. They're coming because they want to be there. Yeah, they pay to be there they want they're paying me to help them to change their beliefs. But if you have someone that doesn't want to change, then there's no way that anyone else is going to check. You can argue with them until the mangoes blue, they're not going to change their beliefs because you told them to. Yeah, when you're talking about this, I'm just reminded of actually my father in law. We caught up with him on the weekend and he's in his early 80s. And we had this discussion about because I said about how childcare is really busy and we're, we're really full up at the moment. He says I do do you accept children from mums who don't work? I said, Yeah, we do. said Ah, I don't I agree with that. You said mums should be home with the children. And I went into this great big rampage about what so what's great about childcare, what's for the children and for the moms and I said, all this stuff, and you just don't know, whatever. I thought you haven't heard a single. I've said, like, literally, you have this as if you've got your beliefs, and you're not changing your beliefs. It doesn't matter how long I went on about my great, big, impassioned views of what I think so great about Chuck. That's great. Yeah, it's a prime example. And the only way that we can help people view the world differently, or view the situation differently as be a good role model. not preach, we don't, I don't preach to people, I don't, you know, lay it on the line of what they have to change. I'd be a good role model. You know, I talk about the science behind it, and you know, why things are better, you know, try and give them information, which doesn't, I don't, with no expectation information with no expectation. You couldn't have given your father in law, all of that information, and then expect it to change for him to change his belief. Because that expectation leads to disappointment on your behalf, which leads to anger on on your behalf. So we have to give people information without expectation. And I think a lot of the time people expect people to change because of their own. You know, if they've shared information, they expect that person to change straightaway. Which is just ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. Cuz then they get disappointed and and then it affects relationships, then it doesn't it? It's like, yeah, absolutely. Yes, so identity, let's talk about that. The reality that when you have a child when you become a mother, that the way that you see yourself changes, and I guess that can also be influenced by society as well, about how you're supposed to see yourself. It really is the words I've heard mothers talk, like, they've experienced, like an identity crisis, basically, who am I, what am I, I only exist for this child. So what does that mean for you know, who I was before? It's in a grieving process to I suppose of the life that's, that's lost? Yeah. Share what you are how you feel about that. I definitely went through that. But probably, and a little bit when when I became a mother, like a little bit, but probably more so when I was forced to make a decision about whether to leave a job or not. And that was a important high up job. And I had this identity crisis around that. But as a mother, I think, this identity crisis, because literally, like, at the start of this year, I had an elderly couple come in, and they said we want to do couples counseling. And I said, okay, like, yeah, like, Absolutely, everyone's welcome. And I think they would have been in their late 70s. Um, he was quite active in the community. So, you know, he did lots of stuff around the, around their local community, and it's quite involved, and she just sat at home. And it just blew my mind that she had no purpose in her life. Other than being at home and doing the stuff at home. So she still hadn't found her identity from when she had kids like 50 years ago, for the last 50 years, she had not had her identity. And whether she even had that identity before she had kids, because don't forget, that was in a different era, like women, you know, to be seen and not heard, you know, married quite young, and that was their purpose, to marry to have children and to look after the house like that was their purpose. Yeah. And she spoke about being really sad and, you know, not looking forward to the future and really resentful that he was out doing things in his community. so I gently sort of spoke to her about finding her identity again. What are the things she loves to do? You know, does she love to go and have coffee with friends? Does she love to go hiking? Does she love to go dancing? And including some of those things in her life again. And she was really she really had a lot of trouble understanding that she can and has permission to to find all those things again. Yeah, that's literally give her permission to find all those things again, because she she thought that that was not okay. Yeah, when you were saying that I was the word permission was going through my mind too. It's like she was actually saying, Is it okay if I actually do this? Like? That's yeah. That's quite fun, isn't it? That's someone's Yeah. Wow. So, the back the mums that I work with, quite often who, you know, either their child's just gone to school, or they're a little bit older, and they're in childcare or the mums going back to work or whatever, is always around identity. And it's also around the self worth. So thinking of yourself as worthy. And I always say to them, Why aren't you worthy? Give me you know, give me a good reason why you aren't worthy to have two hours to yourself on a Thursday night to do whatever you want. Like, why are you not worthy of that? You know, so it's really, that identity thing is, again, I feel like it's patriarchal in society, you know, born from society. And then when social media comes along, it's like, it's amplified, like, 200% with this massive magnifying glass. I, I actually, I know, social media has its place. But it's destructive and damaging. And I can you know, in my other job, I am in high school counseling, high school students. And I just cannot even fathom why they enter into this bullshit on their phones, like I just. And these kids are, like, literally stuck to their phone and have probably the worst self esteem issues that I have ever come across. And it just blows me away. And it saddens me, It saddens me to the core, that these young girls, you know, starting at, say 1312, or 13, probably even know probably 11, they're starting at 11. Like caring so much about what other people think of them. Like, that's what they base their whole life on. And then, of course, then we have the identity stuff that comes later with with moms. And I know that, you know, it might be two different topics, but I think they're into the interplay because of the self worth stuff. Absolutely. I think it's almost scary to think how these young girls now and how they're going to cope with that motherhood. Because of the they've been in this world. I think it's interesting, like people like you and I, and probably a lot of people listening to this did live in a world before social media. So we can look at that and go, like my son, and something will happen. And I'll boost like, ah, that's no big deal. You know, because I'm not I have the hindsight and whatever I've lived that I've lived in a lot longer than him. And I can say that, obviously, that's not very helpful to him. But we know there's a world outside of social media, but for them, their whole world is that tiny, whatever exists on that phone. And it's really quite scary that absolutely, and I agree. And it leads to this identity and, and even identity, and I know, this is the probably not the identity that you're speaking about. But, um, gender identity. You know, a lot of the young people at the moment, you know, that plays into the identity because they have got so much information at their fingertips. It's like, this is like before the internet before social media, etc. You had to go and you had to look up scientific papers and encyclopedias, you know, remember those big Oh, yeah, like 100 of them? Yep. You know, it was it was qualified information. So you had to go and do research. Whereas now you can just type in Google. And it's not quantified information. It's not research backed. It's not evidence based. It's not. So I feel like the kids get overwhelmed. Like instead of just sitting with themselves sitting still within themselves or exploring the outside Oddworld all that information is just like an information superhighway. And it's just bombarding and it's confusing is honestly confusing for them. And I feel like that's the same with moms as well, you know, especially with raising babies, etc. Is that information overload. But I think the identity of mums, I hope that it's changing. And I think it is slowly but it's like, really, really slowly. It's like the snail. Yeah, yeah. And I, I hope that we can instill enough self worth in these mums to say that raising a baby is a two person job, you know, if you have got a partner, you know, that that other partner needs to step up. Or if you're a single mom, that doesn't have that partner, having that support network that they can call on, you know, to be able to take the baby for, you know, a day or a couple of hours or whatever. So the mom can actually fight, like, find herself and do things for herself. And I get it, like, when you're immersed in that newborn stage, you know, like, it's full on like that you live in breathing. Like it's, it's pretty suffocating. Like, you know, you're sleep deprived, your brains not functioning properly, you feel like, you know, you're either, you know, depending on how you feed, you either got the baby stuck to your boob or heating up bottles or sterilizing bottles. The hours on end. Yep. Okay, you do you fall into this world of just Baby, baby, baby. But I think at some point, when the baby gets out of that, being dependent on mum stage all the time, then we have to start exploring ourselves again, as Mum, you know, as as Carmen or Alison. Yeah, as a mum. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And being confident enough to, like you said, ask for help. Using fit like, yeah, it really comes down to it really comes down to but the heart of this, from my perspective, anyway, the building up that self worth, so to feel like, you can ask for help, like, you're worthy enough to have that conversation with your partner and say, Can you please do this? Or I need your help, what can you help with for, you know, reaching out to people and then feeling confident enough in the way that you are parenting in the way that you are? living your own life that you don't feel so influenced by what you see around you, whether it is social media, or what were the what your best friend's doing? Or that kind of thing? Would that be? fair comment? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, definitely. Um, and I feel like teaching our young girls self worth, you know, that's where it really starts doesn't, you know, teaching our young boys how to, you know, be sensitive and all the rest of it, you know, in tune with their emotions and all the all of that sort of stuff, and then with our young girls teaching themselves where. Like, I'm a huge believer of boundaries. I feel like women who don't necessarily have an identity or feel lost in their identity, don't have boundaries, because they feel like they need to please everybody else. And so that's, you know, another thing that I do harp on about is having these boundaries, you know, saying no to things, you know, not being afraid to upset people, because at the end of the day, you have to honor who you are and what resonates with you. And it is kind of like the whole the holistic picture, you know, you've I'm very introverted. So, you know, if I was to if you were to invite me to a big party, Allison, like, if I didn't have an identity, I might say yes, because I feel like I need to appease you by coming. But me as Carmen says, that environment and would really, really drain me. So it's not even about feeling uncomfortable because at this point in my life, I'm okay with feeling uncomfortable. I have a cold shower everyday like, I'm okay with feeling uncomfortable. So it's not about feeling uncomfortable in that environment. Although I would sit, you know, I would feel uncomfortable, but it's about okay, if I go to that party. So say if I go at eight, and I don't leave till 12am, Around 50 people that I don't know, I have to exchange small talk with 50 people that I don't know. That to me would take two days to recover from energetically. Yeah, be that be that draining and that, yeah. But you know, like, maybe 10 years ago, I would have gone to that party. And then and then wondered why I felt like shit for two days afterwards. But you know, like an extrovert. So my mom's really extroverted. So that would be her ideal situation to go to a party with 50 people that she didn't know. And I think that's part of our, you know, part of this identity stuff as well is learning. What gives us energy, what drains our energy, you know, what do we love? What don't we like, you know, exploring all of that stuff. Because that becomes the foundations of your identity, and being more authentic to yourself. Hmm. And actually like recognizing, because I'm, I, I'm sort of guessing, but there might be people listening today that might not have made that connection between that city save being in a situation that wasn't that great for you. And then you didn't realize why you felt pretty ordinary, you know, in the next day or the day after. So making those connections and realizing that there is more, maybe there's more to it than what we think there is if that's the way Yeah, absolutely. And also, it's about because if you have no boundaries, so say, say if I said yes to your party, then you you might feel great about that. But if I was to if I was to have the confidence to say no to your party, that takes a certain level of self worth, from me to say no, because I might think Alison won't like me anymore, because I didn't come to our party. Together. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But I think the more you know, yourself, the more you're self aware about what what works for you, which is part of the holistic counseling process is, is rediscovering what, what works for you. And makes you and maybe for the first time actually looking at that, like, like, we talked about the lady before in your 70s that maybe wasn't even had that self awareness to actually go there. Their whole life maybe? Absolutely. And I feel like the identity comes from the seasons in our life as well. People get lost in the seasons in their life. So we give ourselves labels. So you know, mum is a label. You know, that's a season in our life where we're raising children. But then, you know, maybe after I have the stillbirth, I get, you know, rabbit holed into looking at support groups for stillbirth and everything and then I become Carmen who had a stillbirth. Does that make sense? Oh, Carmen, who works at dot, dot, dot dot, like this, this identity thing comes with these seasons in our lives. But it takes a lot to shed that ego because it is ego. Like when we identify with these things that we attached to. It takes a lot of, you know, courage and bravery to get rid of all those layers. And just be Common. Common. That's it. No labels attached. It's just me. This is who I am. You know, without all of that. Kind of makes sense. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and courageous enough to actually look at yourself. Like take away all those things that you think you are, or that you're seen to be? And just look at, actually, who is this person without? Yeah, without all that stuff? Why? Why do we have this obsession with labels? Like even when I start to speak to you, I asked you what, what do you call yourself? Like, you know, why do we have this thing that we've got to know? It's an E, it's definitely an ego thing. And it's not even like a conscious ego thing. You know, it's like when you say, when you when you meet someone for the first time, you know, say you're at a networking, lunch or whatever. And, you know, you say to people, well, Hi, I'm Carmen, and they say, Hi, I'm Allison. And then I say, what do you do? What does it matter what you do? Yeah. It's I'm here to meet Alison, you know, not Allison, who is the podcast person What do you call yourself? Podcast fears? It's not common the holistic counselor, yes, it's common. Yeah. Because there's so much. There's so much. I don't I don't know if this is the right way. So but there's so much more to pick a person and then just how they, how someone perceives them. So like, he could say, I'm Alison, that, that I, I am a mom of two and they'd go Alright, so that's what you are. You don't do anything else you have nothing else that you do. That's what you are, you know? Maybe pigeonhole. You don't mean, hmm. That's very interesting, isn't it? It is, it's very interesting. It's, and it takes guts to and vulnerability to stand there and say, I'm calm and full stop. Yeah, you're leaving yourself wide open for people to make their own opinions. Which kind of weapon enough to not care about that. Which is when you have when you have that self worth, then you can stand there and say, Hi, I'm Allison booster. And let you know and the way on the other side of things, if you know, if you are meeting someone new or whatever, and you don't want to subscribe to, you know, the labels or whatever. You can use curiosity. So, you know, Hi, I'm Carmen. I like to read, Allison. You know, you say Hi, I'm Allison. And I say, oh, Allison, what are some of your favorite things? Be curious about your person? Yeah. Tell me tell me about what you enjoy doing? Or, you know, yeah, it's not reaching for this, this label to describe someone. And it's almost like you feel when someone tells you the label, you feel like you found out all about them. It's like you've you've created that image, in your mind are what they are. And it's like, well, that's I don't need to know any more about you, you know, but then when you have that conversation, you actually, like you said, Be curious. Yeah, it's a completely different way of looking at it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if anyone will take that tip and try that at the next networking function are the x winning from a meeting some people are really. In spite of all Benko is on Instagram, we are on Facebook. And the sad thing about LinkedIn people told me that I need to know more about LinkedIn, but I'm there somewhere. I do check it occasionally. But yeah, you can just reach out and if you have any questions, you can email me and pretty responsive on on email and pretty try to be pretty responsive, responsive on social media as much as I can, at the moment. And have got one day a week where I'm canceling. Like for the full day. Again, I have to be careful with my energetic so I you know, I'm not I don't want to be a business. That's five days a week. I couldn't handle that. Unless I employ someone else. So yeah, and at the moment, I'm like, completely booked apart from one appointment for October, and which I'm truly truly grateful for. But it doesn't make it easy to get in. But what I say to people is please just always message me because if I get enough people I will open another day. It's just Yeah, balancing that. Yeah, get in touch. Like if you're if you're thinking about counseling or have any questions or just want to ask me a question, like I always am open for those questions. Yeah, that's lovely. And yeah, I think if anyone that's listening today if it's sort of sparked something in them that they think oh, I'd like to know more about that. Yeah, definitely reach out to Carmen I'll put all the links in the description so you'll be able to find it that's yeah, it's that's it you're so you're very very authentic person because you're like you said your your energy it's you have to be aware of yourself so you could go you know, like I think there's this idea in business that business has to be this great aggressive well that you know, the be all and end all everyone has to be busy, busy, busy, busy, busy at the at the expense of everything else in their life. That you're you're saying and you're you are showing that that is not how it works. And you can actually that's, again, you're setting your boundaries, you're respecting yourself your own self worth. So you're living the talk, you're literally living what you what you don't say you're practicing what you preach. You know what I mean? Like you are modeling. This is this is how I want to live my life. This is how I want to run my business. This is what's important to me. So I think that's, that's fantastic. It's, you're very, I'm not perfect. Oh, no one's perfect. Put that out there. Like, you know, I'm authentic 85% of the time, the other 15% I question myself and go, should I be, you know, aggressively marketing to you what I mean, like you always have that, those self reflection points. So, you know, we're not I'm not, you know, always. You've always got to have self reflection and awareness, I think is my point. Yeah, navel gazing. Yeah, exactly. Being still in the moment and absolutely about me waiting. Yeah. It's been a really, really enlightening episode, and I really appreciate you sharing and sharing so honestly, your own storytelling and I'm really grateful for your time calm and thank you. No, thank you, Allison. I'm grateful for the opportunity to be on here. So yeah, thank you. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet. Edge to Ellis Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben habit. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Leah Franklin Australian plant based chef + entrepreneur S2 Ep68 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) It is such a joy to welcome Leah Franklin to the show this week. Leah is a plant based chef and entrepreneur from Mount Gambier Australia, a mum to 3 girls, and grandmother of 5. From an early age, Leah had dreams of becoming a mother. She recalls the time in year 10 when students shared what they would like to be when they left school, and Leah said 'a mum'. When she met her husband and got around to living that dream, it was everything Leah had hoped and more. Leah was enjoying life as a full time stay at home mum. After almost 22 years, Leah's marriage started to break down. She was struggling with an eating disorder which she fought hard to overcome. It was during this time that Leah also found a plant based lifestyle - vegetarian at first for her health, however she soon educated herself into the treatment of animals and found that an ethically plant based life was what she felt compelled to live. Once her marriage did finally end, it was at this time that she faced some of the most challenging times of her life, transitioning from a married woman with security, to a single mother of 3 girls with no job or financial safeguard. Thinking of the things she was good at, Leah dug deep, literally, and turned her love of gardening into a business, Serenity Home and Garden Care. She bought a $1000 ute advertised on the side of the road and returned home to her girls to announce her new venture. The next 5 years saw Leah not only pour her love into the gardens of Mount Gambier, challenge the gender stereotype of the gardening industry at the time but she developed some incredible bonds with her often elderly female clients. When her body told her it was time to give up the lugging of chainsaws and hours of gardening, Leah turned to her other love, cooking. It was through mixed experiences of being a vegan in Mount Gambier, thought she could improve the food choices for people who lead this kind lifestyle. Thus, Just Frank was born. years on, her business, and her health are thriving, AND she has almost paid off her home loan as a small business owner. Later in life, Leah has dealt with the identity shift of becoming an 'empty nester' and the different emotions brought on by becoming a grandmother. Leah shares openly and honestly today, and I am sure you will, as I have, appreciate it greatly. Mount Gambier residents may know Leah as the face behind Just Frank plant based treats and meals, but today you will find out there is so much more to this inspirational, kind and determined woman. ***Please be aware this conversation contains discussions around an eating disorder, mental health issues, birth trauma + grief.*** Find Leah on facebook / instagram Podcast website / instagram If you would like to chat about any aspect of a plant based or vegetarian lifestyle (in a non judgemental environment), Leah would love to hear from you! If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on.It is such a joy to welcome Leah Franklin to the show this week. Leah is a plant based chef and entrepreneur from Mount Gambier Australia, a mum to 3 girls, and grandmother of 5. From an early age, Leah had dreams of becoming a mother. She recalls the time in year 10 when students shared what they would like to be when they left school, and Leah said 'a mum'. When she met her husband and got around to living that dream, it was everything Leah had hoped and more. Leah was enjoying life as a full time stay at home mum. After almost 22 years, Leah's marriage started to break down. She was struggling with an eating disorder which she fought hard to overcome. It was during this time that Leah also found a plant based lifestyle - vegetarian at first for her health, however she soon educated herself into the treatment of animals and found that an ethically plant based life was what she felt compelled to live. Once her marriage did finally end, it was at this time that she faced some of the most challenging times of her life, transitioning from a married woman with security, to a single mother of 3 girls with no job or financial safeguard. Thinking of the things she was good at, Leah dug deep, literally, and turned her love of gardening into a business, Serenity Home and Garden Care. She bought a $1000 ute advertised on the side of the road and returned home to her girls to announce her new venture. The next 5 years saw Leah not only pour her love into the gardens of Mount Gambier, challenge the gender stereotype of the gardening industry at the time but she developed some incredible bonds with her often elderly female clients. When her body told her it was time to give up the lugging of chainsaws and hours of gardening, Leah turned to her other love, cooking. It was through mixed experiences of being a vegan in Mount Gambier, thought she could improve the food choices for people who lead this kind lifestyle. Thus, Just Frank was born. years on, her business, and her health are thriving, AND she has almost paid off her home loan as a small business owner. Later in life, Leah has dealt with the identity shift of becoming an 'empty nester' and the different emotions brought on by becoming a grandmother. Leah shares openly and honestly today, and I am sure you will, as I have, appreciate it greatly. Mount Gambier residents may know Leah as the face behind Just Frank plant based treats and meals, but today you will find out there is so much more to this inspirational, kind and determined woman. ***Please be aware this conversation contains discussions around an eating disorder, mental health issues, birth trauma + grief.*** If you would like to chat about any aspect of a plant based or vegetarian lifestyle (in a non judgemental environment), Leah would love to hear from you! If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Thank you so much for welcoming me into your home layout. It is such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me on the show. Yeah. And I got to point out that you've got some delightful traits here for us, and you are an amazing vegan cook wouldn't be me. If I didn't have that. You tell us what you've put up? Well, I've got some Biscoff KitKat. And I've also got some Biscoff rocky road for you today. So that's having a big moment. It's massive. Yeah, and I don't only make maybe three things with it. But it's so well received, and everyone loves Biscoff if you haven't tried it, I'm gonna have something you need to try it. So yeah. Oh, man. But do you find people that eat this that aren't vegan or vegetarian? They can't believe that it's actually being? Yeah. And but believe it or not, at that about 80? We've done a bit of market research, Tony from metros sort of, you know, filled me in here and there. Yeah, that approximately 80% of my customers aren't vegan. So it's like, it's across the board. And, and literally, if you don't tell anyone, it's vegan, they wouldn't have a clue. So I promote that it's vegan slash plant based. But it appeals to everybody. So which is fantastic. Yeah. That was just like lifting the remnants in my back. There's a bit there to eat. So how did you first become interested in veganism? What was the say, when I was 30. And I'd had my third daughter, I was unwell. And when I say unwell I was it was nonspecific, like, I was just felt like rubbish, probably ate a bit of rubbish. I had all sorts of tests and nothing came back with any particular disease or chronic condition. had chronic back pain, body aches, all the things went into hospital had a had a bit of an exploratory on my lady bits. And I remember coming out of the anesthetic, and the doctor said, Well, you're good for another 10 Kids, there's nothing going on in there. And I said, Okay, so what's happening? And he said, Well, we call this nonspecific pelvic pain, so we can just start off for you. Because it's because it's cyclic, we can, we can just give you a hysterectomy, and we'll take everything out, and you'll be all good to go. Which, which back in the day back then, which was 1995 was probably happened a lot. They just don't we just take everything out. And that'd be good. Well, we know now that comes with a whole host of other problems. So I said, just give me a minute, you know, so I think I might just take I'll just take 12 months, and let's just see how I go. And I'll try a few conservative things myself. And he said, Okay, but you know, you know, this referrals for 12 months, so you know, I said, okay, so went away, I started off just taking all the junk food, a lot of chips, drink a lot of coke, you know, just the standard things that people have to call that out first. Then I took red meat out. And that made a huge difference year information. And back then, I mean, I keep I'll keep saying through this back in the day, and I know it's not that long ago, that we're talking 2526 years ago and a lot has happened since then a lot to come to the fore about gut health and you know, inflammation in your body. Yeah. And I didn't know it was inflammation then but once I took red meat out of my diet and dairy I'd always had a bit of a an issue with dairy I'd as a kid I if I ate ice cream always got a belly ache or I remember throwing up at several like school Fairs and things like that because I drink this massive milkshake. Great, yeah, come out. Of course, lactose intolerance wasn't a thing back then you didn't know anything about it. So I took those red meat and dairy out. And I just felt amazing. Within probably two, three months, I just all my pain went away my back pain was so bad. But if I got on the floor of changing nappy, I couldn't stand up, I have my then husband would have to get his arm and help me off the floor. So that that was that. And so I left in chicken and fish. And I, I kept going with that for a while. And then something funny happens when you start to then do a bit of research around. You know, what, why is that making me feel awful, that I started to then come across things more of an ethical nature around factory farming and things like that. And I was literally mortified. So I was vegetarian for quite a while. And then took out the eggs and all the things and, and of course, back then, it was like I joined a cult. My family didn't understand my my birth family didn't understand my dad, your dad listened to this, I'm not knocking him. He just he knows he used to make all the jokes about you know, or that hasn't got a face and that hasn't got a face if I was eating anything. And he always made fun of me. And I said him to stop that stop, you know, I get really offended and but I learned to just let that wash over me in the end. And thankfully now I don't have to explain myself anymore. Because, you know, look, now, the world's evolved to catch up with you caught up with me. I'm not a freak show anymore. I can actually just ask for a vegan option. And no one laughs or no one questions what I'm talking about. I know what you're talking about now. Yeah. And, and I'm sure people that aren't vegan now. If they're, you know, younger, they probably can't imagine a world where people had no concept of what I was talking about. If I if I went somewhere and asked, can you serve that without this and that? And it was like, what? Yeah, like I finally been, like not eating meat. Probably. I'm gonna say maybe 12 years. And even in that time, you'd ask people in restaurants or what's in this stock when what's in, you know, often their body and bones and stuff. And the people be like, What do you mean? And whenever we went to Melbourne, or Adelaide, no worries at all. It's like the country's charm. Yeah. Yeah. But now it's just so my it's, it's, it's crazy of I've watched it and it's like, just warmed my heart. Because it's how my business started too. It's my business started. Basically, when I met Rob, and Rob's as far from vegan as you could possibly be, say, I live in a house with him, him there and me here. And you know, we're just completely opposite ends of the spectrum. But we make it work. And that's how my business started. Because I was tired of going to a cafe, and he could get something and I couldn't get anything, we couldn't go together. And both have something. So I just thought, I think there's something, something there. So that's how it started. And like you said before, 80% of your customers, certainly Metro vegan anyway, so it's just things are amazing. Regardless, it is beautiful. And for someone who says, I'm not sure if I'd like it, I've don't eat vegan foods. If you've never eaten a banana, you've never eaten so Tanner's. I'd like to just name off our 1000 foods that are vegan, they're accidentally vegan, if you just want to put them in that category. I mean, and vegans just it's in inverted commas. It tends to make some people shy away from trying something. So yeah, sometimes you need to change the language, which the diehard vegans don't like. But I, my philosophy is if we can get 80% of people eating less meat in a week, it's going to make more of an impact than 20% of the population only being vegan and the rest not doing anything. So if you add that all together, I think it is going to make more of a difference. So I'm all for incremental changes, if that's what you need to do, but definitely more plant based meals is the way to go. And being accepting of people like I feel like the hardcore, it's like it's my way or the highway, sort of off putting. Yeah, that's that's sort of sad. It's like it's alienating to Pete yet. I want to educate, not alienate, I want to I want people to be able to say to me say anyway, because people know why they should. They don't know how they should. Yeah, that's what I think I think people need to be shown how to do it or, or have some tips on because I take it for granted that everyone knows how to cook something without meat, eggs or dairy. But it's not if that's what You've been brought up with and that's what you've done your whole life. Yeah, that's it's hard to know. Yeah. I remember when I started work as a first job I had outside of my family when I was not eating meat at me, and the girls will operate, what do you eat? Like everything else except for me. Like, it was just people couldn't get their head around that there is other things in the world, everything that doesn't come from animals. Like it's just. Yeah. And that was only 10 years ago. Yeah. It's just Yeah. It's a funny thing, isn't it? Is it is, but it's, it's coming along? Yes, the fastest growing social justice movement in the world. So. And I think too, because of this whole focus on the climate to show the meat industry contributes so much to that, you know, the US so much water, they the emissions from the cows. And actually, someone told me the other day, that the biggest consumer of fish in the world is the meat industry, because they catch the fish to feed to the cows. And I don't think many people would know that. So this is the first time you're hearing that, and I hope you feel shocked. You're shocked desire was, look, it's important. We could You could sit here all day and talk about the statistics on some things, you know, it's terrifying, really. But there's no excuse for not knowing any more. We've got the internet, Google it. It's not, don't don't shoot the messenger. You've got your fine if you really want to know. It's all there. And once you know some of the stuff from listening, and not if you've watched any of the documentaries, you can't unsee it either. So yeah. So yeah, off my soapbox now. It's a great, it's a great topic. And I like those conversations peacefully with people. I don't. I'm not here to have an argument. And I and I've been targeted many a time at a at a dinner where someone knows I'm the I'm the vegan at the table. And you know, it doesn't happen very often. But it has happened to me before where I've sort of been baited, if you like, and goaded into a. And I just put my hand I'm sorry, I'm not I don't, I won't debate it. This is where I'm at with it. And you can do your own research. But I'm certainly not going to have a stand up argument with anybody. Yeah. And I think sometimes that says more about the person that's doing that, but they hear that they're feeling insecure about their choices, and, and it's coming out in that way. But yeah, I people used to say to me, people still do say to me, if we're out for tea, and they're eating meat, and they're like, oh, sorry, we're eating this in front of you. I'm like, You do what you do. Like I've never judge anyone names. So you know, if you want to eat it, you eat it, that's fine. That's up to you. I'll do my thing. You do your thing. And, you know, for feeding to get such a bad rap, you know, make somebody like a joke on social media or, you know, best way to start an argument and barbecue invited vegan, you know, like all this sort of rubbish. It annoys me people that don't choose not to eat animals, I think the most kind and caring people you'll ever find. Definitely, definitely. And there's always those figures and I'm doing the right Yeah, but there's always those Christians too. There's always those everything is yeah, it's it's the person not the cause. Yes, that is so true, right? That person. If they weren't vegan, they would be something else. They'd be an extreme something else. Yeah. So it's unfair to label all vegans as extreme because we're not. We just want a better world. I guess. I started it for my health. And that's why I went forward with it. At first, but once I knew, I knew so I was talking to someone the other day actually, he started for the health too, and then discovered more and more and same thing that ethical side comes in. It's very interesting. It is an interesting topic, but yeah, yeah. So tell me more about your business. What sort of products are you making in your business and and what's your sort of most popular? Well, the snickers Cup, the snickers cup? I do digital invoicing so I can tell in my program, what's the biggest seller and which outlet sells the most and whatnot and snickers four to one of everything else. Close second are the Biscoff rocky roads coming along? Quite quickly behind it, but the granola bars are probably set canned, and I've, I've packaged those now, I'm not a fan of the plastic, but due to the health regulations, I have to have them in packaging at in the shoes of things, fridges and things like that. And at this point, there's no other option that's come up, you're working on lots of different options that are a bit more, you know, compostable, compostable. So that will be good. But I've got the packaged granola bars for different outlets now. And they're proving to be really popular because people can pick them up and throw them in the bag, and you know, take them to the gym or whatever. So that's really good. But my range of granola is amazing. It's, I mean, it's like mine. But the sales speak for themselves and the feedback that I get with my package granola, and the original Dayton Arman has been around for seven years now, that was my original one that I took to the markets when I started to do the markets. And I haven't changed the recipe at all, it's stayed the same. And I'm passionate about the same recipe, rub off and jokes with me, and any says, oh, you know, you know, go and get that recipe and, you know, you probably should write that recipe down or, and I'll say something about an ingredient who was so go and check your recipe. So it's not actually written down. He says, how does that work? I say because I know, I just know, I know the recipe. I've, I've scaled that one from, you know, six little bags that I used to take to the market to you know, I make 20 2300 gram bags in one batch of each flavor. So you know, the bowl has gone from, you know, the business can't see but it's gone from this to I've got these massive big stainless steel balls on the bench, you know, that I'm super, super proud of my granola, I'm proud of all my products. I'm really proud of my products. I've gone into sweets, but it didn't start like that it started with savory meals. That's how it started. But it's just evolved into sweets and, and most of them are, you know, whole food, sweets with, you know, not massive amounts of sugar or anything like that little bit of sugar in the chocolate. And then it was my youngest daughter who was vegan for some time and she just said to me one day she said mum, she said I love all the healthy stuff or the you know, air quotes again, the healthy you know, super wholesome stuff. But she said I'm craving something rubbish. something sugary, something she she's the she was the one that got me to start with the donuts. Yeah, she said I just would love a doughnut that's vegan, but it's oozing sugar and you know, all that decadent stuff. And I sit on it goes so against my grain. She said no, ma'am, but, but maybe that's what people would like. And I went oh, like it was like a cheddar arm up behind my back. Please, please. So I relented and the donuts went gangbusters. Yeah, they were just couldn't keep up with cheese, which would call me every second day. Um, random doughnuts. Doughnuts. And yeah, I had my whole bent kitchen bench was just wall to wall doughnuts, you know, laid out, you know, steaming, you know, calling and I was icing and getting them into containers and labels and taking them back down to shoes apples and, and, and my daughter's gone. See what I'm talking about? Mom? Okay, you're right. So then, you know, I've got I've got a few lines that aren't the wholesome type. But you know, people love those as well. So there's a place for both. Yeah, but I will always always focus on the whole food. You know, the really decadent or the decadent, healthy lines. And I'll always have some decadent, not quite so many lines. But it's the balance. Yes, exactly. Balance. Yeah. So you you make it all here, nothing gets made anywhere else will perish. And with oh, he saw with these two hands. Yeah. And I thought and I thought and had it suggested to me many a time that I should scale the business and, you know, do more and send it to more places and get it out there more. But I'm a real people person. And I I don't know, maybe it's cutting off my nose to spite my face because I'm sure the business could be much bigger. But I I want it to be my two hands. And I want to I like to hand deliver my things, you know, go down to Metro and Tony and I'll have a hug and stand out the back and talk about the meaning of life. And yeah, we talked for five minutes about just Frank and you know what she's doing there and then and then we go Want to other things and, and I love that. And if I don't if I don't do that I'm just in the kitchen by myself. And that's quite isolating at times, just to be by yourself, you know, with your own thoughts. And when you're an anxiety sufferer like I am your own thoughts aren't always the best thing to be with by yourself. But yeah, I love to get out. And sometimes if I'm lucky, I'll I'll sit in the cafe and I'll see somebody eating my food, which is like, blows my mind every time I'm nearly eight years down the track and to see someone with a plate with my food on it, enjoying it with their coffee. Yeah, it's us to have to pinch myself. It's pretty awesome. It is pretty awesome. It's pretty awesome. I love that. So you do have some of your products do go to Adelaide when you go to Adelaide. With Yeah, take a I've got a cafe in West Croydon up there. Joy flora, and beautiful Mark. He he supports my little business and his customers love my goodies. They're completely different to what he has there. So yeah, he's he's always flicking me a message saying when you're coming next, I need some more. Or if my girl was at home, they'll take they'll take him. They've just taken a delivery back this weekend for him. So he claps his hands. He says, Yeah. And he has to ration it out. Like yeah, keeps it keeps it in his cool room. And he just puts out a couple at a time because he says he wants them just buy it all. And then I don't know when you're coming next. And freight so expensive. It's just, it's just ridiculous to probably cost me $40 To send him a box, and you lose that personal connection is so cool. Yeah. You say, Yeah, I love it. I love going up there and seeing him and we have a have a certain. And again, talk about the meaning of life. And I don't know, I just seem to attract these really deep people. And you don't talk about the weather. We talk about other stuff. And I love it. You love it. So you've also had a gardening business in the past? I have, I have and a lot of people don't know that. And what a contrast from this to that. So in 2009, after 22 years together, my husband and I separated. And I've been a stay at home mum for you know, probably 16 of those years and had done paid work in that time. But I've always we made a we made a very firm decision together when we first had children that I would stay home. And he would go to work very traditional. Probably the feminists now would be like, What the hell? What century are you from, but we loved it. We absolutely loved it. It was that whole, you know, he had well, he'd call me he was he at the time he was a rep on the road. And he would call me and he would say I'm going to be home at 530. So 530 on the dot, he'd walk in the door, he'd go straight to the bedroom get changed, and I put tea on the table, the kids would all come in and it was our family times that we'd sit down and talk about our day and it was the highlight of the day. And you know, he had come home to the fire was going and he quite often comments on it's just so nice to walk inside and the kids were laughing and laundry they were laughing every day. And mum wasn't either. But it was a very traditional in air quotes, you know, that kind of situation that we had and we just we both loved our roles. So, when we separated I thought what am I going to do? So I was offered a part time job which I was happy to take and we agreed when we separated on a 5050 split which we discussed at length and we were both happy with that situation we were freehold so we just decided who was having what car and I'm making it sound very cold and emotionless. But you know, I think we can probably you can probably gather that it wasn't like that. But for the purposes of just saying how it was. And we had also we'd been in the house for 20 years so it was very firmly a family home and and when we bought the house there was no garden there was nothing so we I'd spent the majority of that time building the most beautiful if I do say so myself, it was just a magnificent garden with big trees and you know, it was gorgeous. And my ex husband wasn't a big fan of gardening on that scale. So it was agreed that I would buy him out of his share. And he would he would then go on and and do whatever he needed to do with that then the girls would then stay in the home as well. So That's what we agreed to say. We got the finances sorted. We, we got a solicitor each for the purposes of paper signing, not for arguing. And he went off and sign his and I went off and signed mine. My solicitor highly encouraged me to take him to the cleaners basically, and take more than what we'd agreed upon. And when I, when I said to him, No, I'm not doing that. And he, he said, Well, I can't believe you're gonna do that cuz you are entitled to more. And I said, that's what we've agreed to. We've worked together to build what we had. And I said, No, my girls are watching. And I want to be able to look at my children one day, and then look at me, and no, I didn't take their dad to the cleaners, because there's no need for that. And I just didn't want to do that. So we settled and, you know, did our thing. I went off to the bank, and made an appointment and sat down with the, the male bank person, you know, stated my case, I had a part time job coming up, and I had more than more than, you know, like, I had more than what I needed to, you know, do what I needed to do. And he flipped through his papers. And he said, All I can see, you know, I can see your husband's name here as the financial contributor. I mean, it were the house was jointly owned, but he, he was the one that, you know, his name was on the finances and things like that. And he said, I can't see. Can't see here anywhere where you know, you've done too much. And, you know, you'll need to, because, because stay at home, mother was not only raised the children, yeah, the next generation of taxpayers, if you like. So he said, Well, I said, Well, I've got part time work. So and it was, you know, like, for me to pay his share out was, you know, it wasn't a massive, it's not like I was I was asking for the whole amount. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And he said, Well, you need to, you need to go out and get full time work. And you'll need to do that for 12 months before, we will look at the fact that you can actually contribute to your repayments. So, I mean, I'm reparable about that. Now, when I look back, and every time I think about it, it makes my makes me so angry. But at the time, I understand they had to, they had to know they were going to get their money, I get that. So I walked out of the bank, devastated and devastated. It's probably an understatement. But turns out that because of time, my husband didn't want to wait. So he ended up buying me out. But he he got he got approval medically, he got overnight approval, he bought me out, paid me out the whole thing, the whole thing was settled. So my girls and I moved out, got a rental. And the only way I could get the rental because I had no rental history was to pay six months rent upfront. So out of my share of our settlement, I had to take $8,000 and pay for a house for us to live in for six months. And then I thought, well, what am I going to do for work now? Because you know, if I'm going to buy a house, eventually I'm going to need full time work. So I thought I have no idea what I'm going to do. Say, when one day I was driving along, whatever new and I saw this, little youth parked on the side of the road, and it got me thinking I thought what am I good at? Well, I'm good at cooking, and I'm good at gardening. And there, that's the extent of my skills, really. So I thought, right, so anyway, I went back, I drove back to the UK, and I got the guy's phone number and I called him up and I made an offer and it was it was like a $1,200 unit nothing. I got it for $1,000. So I called up my girls and I said I need someone if I come home. I need to pick someone up and come back and help me pick this caravan. They're like, what the hell man? What are you doing? And I said, Well, I've just bought this little unit. I'm going to throw my gardening tools in it. And I'm going to try and get some gardening work around town. And they said a rodeo. Okay. So I got the you took it home threw all my tools in and at the time I lived. You know, we live in a colder SAC and Father Brian Ashworth lived at the end of the cold reset for the Anglican Church. And him and his wife were walking past and then I said oh, what are you what are you doing here? And I said, Oh, well um, I didn't know what I was going to do for a job. So I'm going to see if I can get some gardening work. Ah, well, we've got some things down here that we need doing. They had like a terrorist garden, and he couldn't get up anymore. The steps to do the gardening, so they got me to have a look. And I said, Yeah, that's great. I'll come down to your wedding and mow your lawns. And, of course, big congregation at the Anglican Church isn't. So Brian told someone and that person told someone and before I knew it, I had six or seven clients. So I thought, well, I probably need to get myself a an accountant to sort out all these 1000s and 1000s of dollars that I'm going to make. that I needed to, I needed to get tongue in cheek for sure. I needed to sort my finances out. So I invested an accountant and I went to the accountant, and we're going through all my, my things. And he said, so watch this lump sum of money that you've got sitting here in the bank, which was the settlement from the house. And I said, I Well, that's my, that's my settlement. And he said, Well, why is it sitting here in the bank? He said, You know, you would probably really should be doing something with that. And I said, Well, I wanted to buy a house, but the bank have refused to give me any money. And he said, Well, that's interesting. He said, Have you sought the services of the financial advisor? And I said, No. And he said, Well, Marian Kilsby, she's just around the corner. at MITRE, she said, You, you need to pop around there and have a chat to her, she'll be able to help you out. And I said, Ah, you know, Jennifer really want to do that I'm pretty broken by that. And I just don't want to be refused. Again, I'd rather just sit the money there. And I'll just see what happens. It's a nice, and I think she'll be able to help you. So I made an appointment with Marian, I'd never met Mary. And before I got to my appointment, and I had, I remember having a hanky stuffed in my pocket, and I was walking my eyes, I just didn't want to have to go in there and, and go through this again. So she called me in, got to walked up the hallway and got to the door. And she stopped at her door to sort of, you know, flag me through and she looked at me, she could see I'd been crying. And she said, what's wrong. And I said, I, you know, I'm just broken by all this. And you know, I just didn't really want to have to go through this whole situation with the bank. And she kicked the door shut with her stiletto heel, she pushed a box of tissues across the table. And she said, that'll be the last time we're going to cry about this. She said we've got some work to do. So we we spent the next hour going through everything. And she said, Nope, she said, look, let's let's get your house, she said, have you seen something you're like I see I have I've seen this beautiful house that I would like to buy. And it's not huge. And it's you know, it's an older home. And I really, really love it. And it's just I probably didn't realize at the time, but it was a similar style to the home that that had been married to her money, it was just a bit smaller. But the layout was literally exactly the same just minus didn't have the big family room, and I didn't need that anymore. So she said, Well, you go and get yourself an inspection. And this is the amount that I think we'll be able to get for you if you want to go and borrow some money from the bank. And I said, Are you are you joking? She said, No, no, she said, off you go. So I booked it. I booked an inspection at the house and went through the house by myself. I didn't take the girls, I just thought I just need to do this in case in case it all comes back to bite me. I don't want to get anyone's hopes up about it. Had a look. Went back to Marian and I told her about it. She said if you go and make an offer, go make an offer on it. So I made an offer. And we did a bit of that was in forwards and put the offer in, gave that to Marian and she called me that night and she said well, you've got phone approval from the bank. And like I literally dropped to my knees. And I said, Don't tell me you're not joking. I said what are the chances of this all going sour? And she said, it's probably not. It's it's for real. And you know, I think I think you'd be right. So back to the real estate agent and my loan was approved and I bought my house. So that's how the gardening happened. And the gardening just grew and grew and grew. And it got to the point where I couldn't keep up anymore by myself. So I employed someone that didn't end up end up working out because you know, it wasn't quite the right person. And by then my body was pretty broken. I was I mean I was wielding chainsaws and you know, I my husband, my ex husband called me up one day and he said, he said someone's just come back to work and told me they saw you on wheel street with a chainsaw cutting the limbs off an overhanging tree on the footpath. That's right. What are you doing? I say, Well, I'm trying to earn a living here. He said, My goodness. He said that's a lot. And I said yes, a lot. But I did that for almost five years. And my customers were when I look back on that my customers were I really struggled with empty nesting. And my customers were my people. They were my family. They were I go Mostly for the elderly, mostly elderly women who were on their own. I had a few beautiful elderly gentleman as well. He lost their wives. And almost every gardening, like I booked, I booked an eight hour day. But probably six hours was working two hours was cups of tea. Yeah. So I mean, you can't can't garden for an 85 year old without having a cup of tea at the end and connection for them as well. I had one particular lady who used to wait on the footpath for me to come, she was coming at a certain time. And she would, she would wait out for me. But the bonds are built with those customers. Where was everything for me, they were they were like another family, it was the best. So yeah, I did that. And then my body started to break. And my GP at the time was one of my very, very dearest friends. And she kept saying to me, Leah, you just cannot keep doing this. I had neck issues, I had shoulder issues, my back was virtually broken. And I just kept going and going and going because A, I didn't want to let my people down. They were I just couldn't let them down. And I didn't know what else I was going to do for a job, or now had this mortgage, which wasn't huge. But I used to have, I used to wake up in the night in a hot sweat. And I used to lay there and like I'd wake up startled. And I'd think and I'd be crying. And I'd say to myself, You are totally responsible for this mortgage on your own. Like there's, there's no one to bail you out. Now, like I said, it wasn't big, but just that, like when you've been married for so long. And you've always got that person next to you. If you know if something happens, you've you've got them and you can feed off each other and get through it together. But when you when you're doing it by yourself and I was doing Need I say or hesitate to say man's a man's job. It was a male dominated business that I was working in. I did find out once there was a crew of gardeners who have more than one vehicle around town. That one Christmas one of their Christmas shows they had they were making bets on how long it would last in the business. They were laughing Ah at my at the fact that I was doing it. And they were making taking bets as to how long I would be in the business. So but anyway, five years ago, five years. So yeah, that was that was seen, well offered, I would have thought that would have upset me when I was told that. And I was told by another gardener who was at that Christmas show. And he came back to me and he said that we said you wouldn't you should have heard them. I thought it would have made me sad, but it actually infuriated me. And it drove me to work even harder. And it's probably how I broke myself. Because I'm like, I'll show you Yeah, and then and then now, you know, I had a lot to prove I had a lot to prove to myself and to the fact that it was a male dominated industry that I was working in. And at that time, I was the only female out there doing it. And I think that's why I appealed to the female, the elderly females that I worked for, because I think they felt safe. I had the keys to a lot of gates and gardening sheds and and I often wouldn't tell them I was going to be there I'll just open the gate and walk in knock on the door. So I think they felt safe me wandering around the yard. And yeah, you know, it was a different a different thing for them rather than having a guy No offense to the guys. But yeah, I think it's just a fact very, very reasonable to say. Absolutely. So my body was telling me it was time. And I had been sharing recipes on my Facebook page just to my friends, you know, I made this and, and it's funny a memory came up the other day. And it was funny how many people would say Oh, well, that's really nice. And then I'd write I'll share the recipe with if you like, and someone would say, Oh, yes, please. And then someone would go, Oh, me too, please and meet it. And it just went from two people asking for the recipe to you know, 789 people and then I started a blog. So I had a blog and I'd share my recipes on the blog and that that grew. And then I thought, Ah, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to do a little trial. I'm going to make some morning teas and I'm going to take them to a couple of places for free. And I'm not going to tell them they're vegan. And I'm just gonna say so Marian from modest home loans was one I messaged her and I said hey, Marian, you want to be part of a little trial. Just want to bring in some morning teas for you. So off, and I just want to see how they use and mortgage real estate was the other. So I did that for a while and they're like, ah, that's amazing. Yeah, where were you know, it was no one no one could tell. And that's good. Then I then I started making morning teas and advertising them on my Facebook page that I would deliver to workplaces. And that went really well. Then I thought, Oh, that's cool. Maybe I could make a menu. So I made a menu. So it was a three course lunch. So it was a snack, a main and a dessert. And I made a different menu every week. And people could order from the menu. And they would, they would pay me in cash when I got there, or they could direct deposit and, and I just put them in my car and I would drive them around. So I registered my kitchen and got all that past and started that. Now I was working. I was working four days a week in my gardening business from 630 in the morning to whenever it was dark was when I backed the youth back into the driveway. Fly out of the year on a Thursday night jump in the shower. check my emails to get all my how many people were going to order I'd literally do an all nighter and I kid you not I would I would work and you asked my girls, the couple that were still home. I would work literally through the night to four or five o'clock in the morning. Have quick sleep, jump up, pack all the orders up. And Friday was delivery day. So I'd work Friday morning, throw everything in the car and 11 o'clock and deliver everything. Well that just got out of control. Like you got to be careful what you wish for. So that so then I cut Thursdays out of my gardening business. So it was manage Tuesday, Wednesday gardening, Thursday, Friday menus. That group started doing markets on the weekend. So it was Monday, Wednesday gardening, Thursday, Friday, Saturday preparation for a Sunday market. And I was just working I was working 18 hour days every day. So it was Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday gardening and getting out of the ute, throwing all my dirty clothes in a pile having a shower, getting dressed and then straight into the kitchen. It was ridiculous. Yeah. And it wasn't long before. My not only my physical body, but my mental health just did a spiral when I can remember the day that it happened. It was like a, it was an actual moment that I remember, this is out of control, and I can't keep doing it. But then, then I just don't know how to put it into words. I'd built these businesses from scratch. And I still get really emotional about my gardening business about letting it go. Because the process of letting something go that you built from scratch. And that was a crutch for me through some of my darkest moments after my marriage breakup. And I couldn't just give these people to somebody else. Yeah. You had a real relationship, didn't you? Yeah. And Mike can bless his heart. He said, You know, you've got a sellable business here. Let's let's value the business. And because I had one, I bought a beat up all year, but I upgraded to a near New to our highlights that I paid cash for. I had a trailer built from scratch a great big trailer with all the toolboxes and I paid cash for that. And I was so proud of what I've built. And my ex husband was proud of me too, you know, he, he, he was really proud of what I what I what I built and how I pulled myself up and got back on my feet. And I said to my accountant, I can't. This is exactly what I said to myself, I can't give I can't sell my people. And he just looked at me and he said, I know what you're saying, but, but this is a sellable business. I said I can't sell my people. That's the bottom line. I understand that I'm probably throwing money down the drain, but I can't do it. I said I can sell all my plant and equipment. But I need to find homes for my people. So I hand picked other gardeners that I knew. And I had a couple of guys that had often helped me throughout the years. And if I had a really heavy job that I couldn't do, I call up these couple of guys who are friends to this day. They're just the most beautiful men. And I rang them and I said, Hey, how many people can you take on because I've got this lady and I think she'd really suit you. And I've got this gentleman who's got a big lawn so your ride on mower would be really cool. And between us, we worked it out. They took they took this one and that one and I took I met them there and introduce them to these people. I couldn't I couldn't it took me it took me 12 months to ease myself out of the business and and it wasn't until I knew everybody was okay. That I let it go and I still kept to to Alienware I was doing just Frank full time and I was in the full swing of it. I had two beautiful women that I kept that I just couldn't let go. And I knew one sadly was not going to be with us for a long time. So I kept her to the end. And the other lady I eventually left Got it because I just couldn't keep doing it. So that was how I got out of gardening. That's massive, isn't it? It was it's a real big, almost grieving process. It was that 12 months, I'm moving through those stages. That's huge. And my partner now Rob, he, he held my hand all the way through. At first, he was a bit like my account, and he's like, just sell it, let it go. And he saw how many meltdowns I had. I said, I can't and it won't matter how you how you explain it to me. I just can't do it. It just meant it. Just it was like it'd be like selling my mum. Yeah, because that's who they were to me. They were just, you know, beautiful, beautiful people, and I couldn't do it. So I sold my plant and equipment. And that was easy. Yeah. It was easy, but But I worked hard for those things to that I partnered with those and I swapped the Toyota Hilux for a little Holden Combi van that I had signed, written with just Frank emblazoned all over the site. And I had a different vehicle to sell a different thing. So yeah, and it just grew. She's apples and matrei. I cannot speak highly of for the support they've given me Tony from Metro was the first person to put a hand up and say, bring it in here. We'll have it in. I took my first products in there. And she's apples. Yeah. There have been amazing they. They let me do they just give me free rein. Yeah. I know. That probably sounds if they they'll listen to this. And they'll be like, Yeah, we pretty much do. I mean, I just I just went in the other day and spoke to Raleigh and I said, Hey, Raleigh. I've got he handles all the all my granola on the shelf. It's his department. I said, Hey, Raleigh, I've got a new product coming that's that I want to put on the shelves. It's not not refrigerated. It's a do it. Like a make it home mix in a bag? Yeah, cool. Let us know when you bring it in, we'll make it make a space on the shelf. I mean, how good is that? Yeah. I mean, they're just, they're just that my biggest supporters, and they support so many small businesses in our community. You can ask for more than they can. Yeah, that's fantastic, isn't it is it is I'm so grateful. And as I said, Tony has been a mentor as well. She's mentored me through some break down moments where I've said, I don't know which way to take this, you know, maybe I'll just throw it all in on it's too much. And she said, just take a minute, just scale it just take out the things you don't want to do. You know, she's, she's sat there and talked me off a cliff a few times. And she doesn't need to, she probably wonders why haven't come in lately, but to have those chats, but I've I think she's taught me a lot about how to manage things. And don't let things get out of hand, don't do things you don't want to do say no, when you need to say no. And I'm pretty good at that. Now. Yeah, that's a big thing, too. For women, but also people that are really highly sensitive energetically, you are, because our first instinct is to just please go yes, no worries, I'm gonna do that. And then you think about afternoon, Oh, crap, how am I going to do it, and then you burn yourself into a hole to satisfy other people. So that is a big thing to be able to say that. And you know what, I'd be lying. If I said it also wasn't an ego thing. Yeah. Because, of course, if people love your stuff, and they want it, you just want to keep on giving, giving, giving, giving, because he would I feel would I be to say, you know, no, I don't want you to showcase my product, you know. And if I was 20 years younger, maybe I would have scaled it, maybe I would have, maybe I would have found the right person to help me and I would have scaled it. But you know, I don't want to do that. Now. I want it to be me. And I love and I've contained it now. You know, you've made it manageable for you to keep maintaining what you're doing because I was going to burn out for sure. And I saw that and my mental health was suffering big time. And menopause is a bitch. Let me tell you menopause is nearly bought me unstuck. Anxiety was like it hit me. You know, I thought menopause was hot flashes. And that's really all I'd seen my mum go through. Yeah. And yeah, when it when it hit, it was a bitch. And it nearly took me anxiety was mean, Rob will tell you I used to. It kept me in the house. Yeah. And when I was when I was delivering meals, I would I would get all my deliveries lined up ready to go. And I would quite often have to call him because we didn't live together then. I would quite often have to call him and he would. He would literally have to talk me step by step out of the house, to the car. And to the first place once I was at the first place. I was fine. But actually leaving the house and I think it was a bit of impostor syndrome, as well. I think I was like it, I was fine while I was cooking it was fine while I was getting the orders off my website and you know, my emails and all the things, but once it came to actually coming face to face with the people I was like, Who do you think you are? Who do you think you are? With your name written on your car driving around, pretending you're somebody you know people think you do these things and oh, wow, that's so cool. She's, you know, got this successful business. They really have no idea what goes on. In your mind sometimes. Yeah, because it's not it's not all what it appears on the outside. I want to go to a point where you you talked about being an empty nester. So you have three daughters. I do, obviously they're not living in your wetsuit. I have two in Adelaide. So my eldest and middle daughter, Cassie and Mia. They're both in Adelaide. And I had Georgia here and Matt cambia. Thank Good. Thank goodness, one of them stayed. I yeah, I don't, I totally understand why they've, you know, gone. Mia went off to uni when she was 19. And and I remember driving my husband I had had separated not long before. And I can't swear because he swore when he said it to me, but I can't swear on here, can I? So we were so we we made a pact with each other when we separated that we would always parent Well, together, we would continue to parent, our girls were 2119 and 14 when we separated. So they weren't babies. But it's still it's still impactful on the family unit. No matter what age they are. But I guess a little bit easier when they're older. They they knew things weren't great at home. So the writing was on the wall. But we We vowed that no matter what happened between us, we would we would still do our best to parent with the first 12 months were a bit bit rocky while everyone navigated and there was a lot of hurt and the normal things that go on in in a breakdown. But we wanted to drive me to uni ourselves together. So what who does that who separates from the husband then gets in a car in a confined space for five hours and drive somewhere? You can't get out. But you can just open the door. It was quiet. Let's just say it was quiet. So we drove her up to Flinders, and we took her in and it was orientation day and all the things and we, you know, took her up to her room and we got her settled and then it was time to go. Well, me, Cassie, Cassie had moved out that Mia was the second one. Cassie was still in town that me was the first one to move away. Say I was I was such a hands on mum. I'll stop short of saying I was a helicopter parent because I don't think I was a helicopter parent. I've actually asked my girls since that terms been thrown around. I've said to my girls, do you think I was a helicopter parent? I said no. But I just was there. I was just there. When I was needed. I was there and sometimes probably when I was not needed or not wanted I was there. But it was it was gut wrenching to leave her there. And we walked out of we walked out of the building. And we were walking back to the candidate like I was sobbing. I was sobbing and he was walking behind me. And he knew what kind of Mama was say, you know, he probably shouldn't have said it. But he said, What's wrong with you? And I turned around, I said, you know what's wrong with me? And he said, Oh, I don't know why you're crying. I'm actually not fucking dying. Well, it's a long way from Adelaide to make me when you're just looking out the window. You're not speaking to each other because I never spoke. I never spoke to him all the way home I just sobbed and sobbed and sobbed. I cried. I cried all the way home and I probably cried for the next week, because I knew I knew she wasn't coming back. I knew once she went to Adelaide and she found her new life. She wasn't coming back. And that's okay. That's okay, because that's what they're meant to do. And, and we're meant to let them spread their wings and fly. But nothing prepared me for, for how I was going to navigate that myself. And because I'd been such a hands on Mum, I didn't know who I was. And I think even when, when our marriage was nearing the end, I could see the writing on the wall, like, you know, the oldest one starts leaving the house a bit more. So you've got to, and then the next one starts to go. And we had a, we had a five year gap between our middle daughter and Georgia. So say, they the two were gone, and Georgia was still home a lot. And then they'd come back. And you know, things ebbed and flowed. But the times when it was just Georgia and, and my husband and I, I remember, I could feel it, I would look, I would look around and I could feel the anxiety and I was looking around, I was thinking like, I'm doing the movement, no one can see me, but I'm doing the movements. Now. While I'm telling you, because I can tell you that it makes me anxious, because I could see it coming. And the panic. And for anyone that knows me, well, I had an eating disorder. Around that time, sort of maybe maybe four years before we separated. And I think it was, I think it was the struggle of me trying to find myself. And I didn't know who I was I had I had, I didn't have anything else yet. I mean, I didn't have I hadn't made it. I didn't have a career. I mean, I've been an Avon rep for 15 years, I sold Avon. And that's how we saved that extra bit of money. And I worked at spotlight part time for a few hours here and there. But I've never I didn't know who I was apart from being someone's mom, someone's wife and someone's mom. So when I when I actually was present in the moment, and I could see it coming. I was literally panic stricken. What the hell am I going to do with my life? And I looked across at my ex husband bless his heart, and I thought we hadn't worked on our relationship. We didn't do these date nights that people do now. And we didn't have holidays by ourselves. We had one night out a year. And that was for our anniversary. So we did. We took holidays with our children. I mean, we took our kids on a honeymoon because we had to before we were married. Yeah. So we took the kids on our honeymoon. So when we dropped me off and came back, I, my marriage had fallen apart. My daughter had just left and gone to Adelaide, which I'm not, I'm not blaming her. I'm just saying this was a huge thing to get happened all together in my life. My eldest daughter have moved out when once I bought my house and moved into it, she moved out it was and she was ready to do that she was probably going to do that anyway. So I moved into my new home with with my middle daughter, my youngest daughter, well, then, my middle daughter went to Adelaide and I came back. And it was it was Georgia and I in the house. And that was fantastic. Because we shared some wonderful moments together. But I just didn't know what was going to happen next. I had no clue what was going to happen. And Georgia had a boyfriend and so she was out of the house a lot. And man a man did I have to do some soul searching in those times. There were like, you know, have you ever cried that guttural kind of cry? You know, there's the kind that it hurts every part of your body. And it's that, that I remember sitting in front of my fireplace on my little stool that I had there. And it was just Yeah, I was empty. run dry? Didn't I just didn't know how I was going to go to the next bit. That you did, though? I did. Yeah, I did. And all these, you know, there's, you look back and you think of all the people that you think you did it by yourself, but no one does it by themselves. No one does it without little things that happen, you know, Marian, with the the finances and my accountant. You know, people like that who you just he just steered you a little bit in that direction. I had a had a wonderful mentor while I was gardening and Rolton he mentored me, he taught me off mini cliff when I was because it was it was hard being in that industry. And he supported me. You know, he supported me and his wife, Kate, they were just amazing to me in that time. And they you know, I was often on the phone to him having a spoke about something and I remember one day he said to me, Leah, he said, he said this is this is hard for me to tell you. He said you need to take your big girl hat off and you need to put your business hat on. He said you need to get your tissue out of your pocket, wipe your eyes and straighten yourself up and you need to get back to it if that's what you're going to do. And and it was hard to hear because I was because you know I had my my little girl hat on the inside. And that was what was driving me was my little girl heart. But I had to I put my little girl hat there. The Big Business Big Man business heartening because I was dealing with the men out there. Yeah. And my little girl hat wasn't gonna cut it. Big life lessons they were because I, I mean, you know, and trust me to, I don't just do things in half, I never do. So rather than just ease myself into life on my own gently, I'm now just going to rip off all the band aids and I'm going to throw myself into that, you know, gotta get a chainsaw. And I'm gonna change my Lego to cut so Yeah, no worries. Yeah, no, I did. And I'm going to, I'm going to change mine. Mine flat tire out there on AB flat when I get stuck and, you know, got bogged, got bogged, and had to get someone to come and help me out of the matter. I could do a whole podcast on that. Listen stories in there, but I did. I did. But yeah, you've done some massive stuff, haven't you? Do you look back on that and feel really proud of all the stuff that you've done? If you've achieved this stuff? Yeah, I do. But it's still. I still have terrible self esteem. Yeah, after all, that I still don't feel good about myself. And I still, I still struggle terribly with impostor syndrome. Terribly with that, you know, I have to pinch myself. And, and people think a comment on Facebook is like, you know, I put a post up yesterday about my, my famous veggie burgers. And so many people have commented on this thing, though. My favorite thing, though, my favorite thing. And look, I was reading them last night. And I'm thinking, are they talking about me? And you think you think that you read that? And it's an ego trip? Because everyone's telling you how good Yeah, but I'm looking at that. And I actually had to go back through some old stuff. And and remind myself that I did do that. Or like the Neil deliveries, I have to remind myself and it's only if it comes up in my Facebook memories. And I go into Robin, I say, how was I doing that? And gardening as well. And he said, I remember. I don't even know how you did it. He said you just I was on autopilot the whole time. But yeah, when I look back, I think you know, I wasn't well, when I left my marriage. I was still quite unwell. I was my I was very underweight, very underweight. And that could have gone either way. Like I could have taken that work on and literally killed myself doing it because it was pretty physical. But I somehow I found it, I found it in myself. I'm divine intervention, call it whatever you will. I got on top of it. And you know, I don't consider myself to have any eating issues anymore. And eating it, like an eating disorder. It's not about the food. Yeah, anyone that knows anything about it, ya know? So it's just the vehicle which manifests just be any vicious. How could be alcohol can be gambling, it could be drugs. Yeah. Be exercise. Yeah. Anything? Yeah. Because I've had I had that all the comments, you know, why don't you just go home and start eating again. You know, you'll be fine. I'm like, Well, I wouldn't think that what a great idea. Well, yes, oh, well fell apart. And my kids had to witness it. If i Girls witnessed that, and I'm not, you know, talking about regrets and things. If I could go back and change anything. I wished my girls hadn't seen that. Because I lost time with my girls too. I was fighting for my former life. Come on this time with them. And I guess having them there too, might have what it did, it was it was it was all of it. You know, it was all that kept me going and I think I think all these achievements in my life since particularly since my marriage ended. I've always not not watching in a way that they're supervising but I've always known who's watching and I've always wanted to be a good role model for my girls. I've always wanted to be to be able to show my girls that I got up every time I was down I got back up. Yeah, yeah. And I continued to get back up Yeah. I said I don't do things in house. But I got and and I tell them you know, you can do anything. You can do anything. Good for you want to give your heart or your mind saying we just do what we do. Right? No. I come from a family of fighters, you know, my, my mum and dad, this can be okay. If you weren't, I might go into detail. I come from a family of fighters. My, my parents both had, you know, quite traumatic childhoods themselves, you know, things that happened in their lives. And I've it's obviously not spoken about much because that's the generation Yeah, but I know, I don't know all the details and the the strong people, you know, they've come through those things and my sister as well she's had her own mental health battles, you know, like me. And she's stood up and said, Not today, Satan. She's gotten on with the show, and I'm super, super, super proud of her for how she's gotten on with her life, too. So, you know, I've had had that around me, but I think it's, I think it's from a mom's perspective, I always knew my girls were watching on. And like I said, I just didn't ever want to, I want to show them strengthen. You know, I wanted to be able to look back and say, and I didn't want to miss. I didn't want to miss anything. I didn't want to miss being a grandparent. Yeah, I mean, imagine if I hadn't fought and I just lost my battle with that. I would have missed all of this. And they missed out too. They missed, you know, how many phone calls I get during the week. And hey, mom, or, you know, it can be for advice, or it can be, you know, just when they're having a moment, you know, and I'm so blessed that I still have my mum. Yeah, I had my mum and my dad in very good health at a dad's 86 and mums at one. And I've got so I've got my parents on this side. And I've got my now got my grandchildren. I've got three beautiful grandchildren over here. And I have, it's an interesting place to be, because I'm in the middle. And I'm, I'm helping mom and dad with this. But I've also had the absolute blessing of being able to call my mom and say, Hey, ma'am, you know, when I was really unreasonable when this was happening, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I didn't realize. But shit. It's happening to me now. And man, I'm sorry. I understand now why you were like that, or why? You know why that happened? Because and I know a lot of people don't have their mums. When they get to the point I met with grandchildren, they don't have their mums. And my heart hurts for those women who don't have the mums to say that too. But I'm just lucky. And I do it. I do it. Because it's important to me to be able to tell my mum that I understand now Mum, you know, I get it. And and I'm proud of you mum for it for the way you got through that or you know, whatever. And mother nice to do lock horns. Sometimes she's the only one she's still feisty. We're about that as family though. We got more sometimes that we are lucky that I've been able to tell her. That's lovely and fit. Like, my my pop passed away. Almost a year ago, he was 94 for my boys to have their great grandfather. Like I just kept saying to him, You are so lucky to have a great crowd. Oh, yeah. Like not many people get to have, you know, I just wanted to impress that upon them. Yeah. Well, while they had him, you know? Well, I think I have that relation. Yes. Oh, definitely seen? Definitely. And I look on, you know, I could probably still pick on mum and dad for bits and pieces of things. But you know, we, we will all work with the tools we've got. Yes, we absolutely is no instruction manual. I know that's thrown around a lot that thing, but it's so true. It is. And I tell my girls now that they're parenting themselves. I say that to him. And there's, you know, I say to them, you know that feeling you get here in the pit of your stomach. That's called your gut instinct. And you need to trust it every single time over, over your friends over sometimes your partner if you've got a gut, say got this I don't want to get troubled is the medical profession. They have their place. But I've seen to answer magazines. And you know what, when I look back on all the times, I didn't trust it. I was right every time. Every single time. There's I don't think there's a time that I wasn't right about trusting my gut. And I got myself into some, you know, terrible situations at times because I just went ah, I'm sure this will be fine. It wasn't fun. It was never fun. And yeah, probably go back. You can't honor that. I told I use that for them. I say to them, trust it. Because most of the time, you'll be spot on. Because you just know you know your own babies. So yeah, that's it. No one knows your children better than you do. them. I did it I find it incredible the amount of stories I hear, like through so Sure media mums who weren't listened to? It's like, even now, you think, haven't we evolved enough to know? You know, obviously medicine has its place? Absolutely. But to be able to just don't know. I don't know. I hear what you're saying. And even as women, imminence women off, you try you try getting an appointment, or you try getting into see about a women's issue or anything like that. I'm not going to go into into that. But anyway, it's it's a catastrophe, the system is a catastrophe. And, and I'm not surprised more women don't die. Because of it. Yeah, that's so and I'm sure it happens to men too. If there's any men listening, I'm not. I'm not saying it's, you know, but I can only speak from a woman's perspective because I'm a woman. So I can just say from my experience, I think it's a catastrophe scary. Yep. When with your butt, okay, you've said in the past, haven't you girls, you know, always, you're conscious of them, you know, they're always watching in your role modeling. Do you feel like that even now, when they're, you know, moved away, and growing up that it's there watching how, you know, you run your business authentically. And you've had the chance to, you know, upscale it and do whatever, but you're sticking to this. What's important to you? Probably, I mean, to be perfectly honest, I'm most often think that not even looking. They're so busy with their lives. But but every now and again, they'll come up with a somewhat, we have a Facebook chat. And we have all versions of that we have the family chat group, which is the three girls, their partners, and my partner, then we have the three girls and meet, I'm sure they have a private one of their own that they discussed things that I want to talk about with me. Well, I know they do. Then we have all the versions. So I've got Mara and Cassie, I've got Cassie in Georgia, I've got Georgia and you don't I mean, someone's birthday, and you just want to talk probably maybe we got to check the names really carefully. But every now and every now and then I'll get a message from someone, or they're in the group or out of the group. And they've noticed something. And it makes me cry. Like, there's such beautiful human beings. And they just say the most beautiful things. They're so supportive. They're so they're so proud. They're proud of both their dad and myself. But when they when they say it, almost, I almost feel undeserving of it. Yeah. And it shocks them if they if if they do something like that, or they say something nice and I react that way. So why why does it upset you Mimosa just feel so undeserving of, of their, of their love and care. They're just such beautiful humans, they really are. And I and I do think they see what I'm doing. Because they tell me they're proud. They see it, they see what I'm doing. Or if I get down on myself and I say something in front of them. They remind me they'll say, man, look at what you've done. Like you've run these two successful businesses and like I'm, I'm literally a breath away from paying my house off. It's I can I can touch it. It's happening very, very soon. And they'll they'll say, but you did that yourself. And, and as I said, you don't do anything useful if you've had help, but I haven't been employed by anybody else in that time. Yeah. So I've created these two businesses and and I've done that. And that's, if I think about that, that's big. And that shows them that, although I've had I've had my partner support, you know, here now, I've done that part of it myself. And they've they've watched me come from being a crying mess, literally when it first all started to you know, have stood up and, and got on with the show. And I'm and I think they're great. The product is a great thing for them to see from their mom. I think particularly from their mum. Yes, yeah. And then growing up in that era where there was the traditional role. Yeah, you know, if anyone was going to go out and earn the money was the Dad Yeah. So to have their mother achieve this, you know, that's, that's massive. And it just gives them that confidence that you know, you don't need someone you don't need to be married or a partner of someone who's bringing in money for you. You can go out and do it yourself. Which is huge. And I didn't I mean, it's not like my mum didn't work. My mum worked from the time I went to school my mom worked for so long. I didn't see it. Yeah. But it's what I wanted to do. Yeah. And I remember having a discussion on the humanities floor at Grant High School in year 10. And you know, you're all standing around on What's everyone doing? You picking your subjects and all that. And, and I didn't realize it was going to be such an embarrassing topic. But everyone was saying, oh, you know, what are you going to do and someone was going to be a teacher, and someone was going to be a pharmacist and did it at air and, and I sit on, it came around to me, and I said, I just want to be a mom. And like, it was just this deathly quiet because even then, it was an unusual thing for someone who knew 10 to say they wanted to just be a mum. And it was just, you know, air quotes again. Yeah, just be a man. And they said, oh, and I said, Yeah, I can, like, I just want to have the house with the fence and the whole thing. And it's, it's truly all I saw for myself. Yeah. Very ambitious. What do you think that came from what you said, your mom, I don't, I don't want to. If my mom listens to this, I don't want my mom to think that she did anything wrong. But my earliest memory as a child was and truly is my earliest memory. And it's really emotional for me is when my mom dropped me off at kindy. Standing it was the head like a, this is how vivid it is. They had a like a cement box that covered the gas meter. And I was and I stood up on the gas meter box held and held it held on to the front fence and I was screaming for my mom she was I can see her walking to the little green Maurice mana that we had, and her getting in the car and leaving me there, which everyone did. And when I left the kids at kindy it's not like she did anything, you know, horrible. And I was out, I was just wanting her to come back. Come back and update. Don't leave me here, ma'am. And I was beside hysterical. And back then. I didn't know what I was wearing. That's how vivid it is. I haven't seen a photo. It's just like, it's like a trauma to me. And I had this beautiful little dress that mom had made and a hand knitted cardigan with buttons down the front and mum used to pin a hankie on the outside with a gold safety pin. And I had my hankie pinned, and I was tugging at my hanky, and she's driving off in the car lift me at kindy. That's my earliest childhood memory. And I think it's stuck with me. It's just stuck with me. And I, and I just never wanted my kids to feel like that. And I know it was a moment, and I'm sure once mom left, and they took me inside. I mean, I don't even remember anyone coming to get me that's I just remembered that. But I'm sure I was fine. I'm sure once I got inside, I was okay. But that sorry for me that that may wanting my mum, I didn't want my girls to have a moment of that. So for me, and and Tony and I spoke about it very early on, he was in full agreement with we that was something we chose together to. I just wanted to be home and I wanted to raise my own children, um, and I locked horns many a time because Mum, mum would say, I will, I'll come and you know, I can come and take them and do this, or I can come and do that. I said, I want to do it myself. And I remember having a big argument with them. When he said you and your bloody independence, it shifts me. And I said, Mom, I didn't have my children for someone else to have them. I want you to be a Nana. But I don't want you to I don't want you to take them and parent them. I don't. I don't want that. And that's how I that's how I chose to be a mom. It's what I wanted to. It's what I wanted to do, you know, I did the and we didn't have much money. It came with sacrifices, because we, you know, it was back when I make it sound like it's back in the ice age. But it was it was a different it was a different time. It was a different time. I mean, so, so much different to now we had, we got paid in an envelope, you know, the money came in a pay envelope, and it came with a pay slip, you know, and we had an exercise book, and Tony would come home on a Friday night with the pay. And we'd get the kids off doing something and we'd sit down, open up the book now. And this is when you paid all your bills you drove you got into cars. I remember doing that with we went to the bank and you paid your house payment. The house payment was just a number of $100. So we'd sit down we'd put all the cash down and we'd sit together and it's like okay, so 100 for that 100 there. The telephone bills $44 If you put everything out to put it in a little envelopes. Got $60 left, that's going to pay for the groceries, anything to do with candy or anyone need clothes or that was that was everything. So when I wrote my shopping list, we can't get the chocolate biscuits and I grew all my veggies from scratch. All of them. I had a we had a big backyard. I had a massive veggie patch. And Tony was Italian and his mum. I mean they were just amazing. They what they didn't gray. Yeah. So she My parents grew veggies too. So between all of us, we all you know, we all were self sufficient. Tony's dad also used to work at the abattoir. So he used to kill all their meat. And this is before Well, before I went vegetarian, but even so we had meat eaters in the house, they they quite often would kill a pig or a sheep or something and bring us around a heap of meat that went in the freezer. But I grew in our grave 50 tomato plants at once and make all my own Persada and yeah, and all the girls, snacks and cakes and biscuits are all cooked from scratch. Didn't not not only could I not afford it, it's it's what I wanted with my day. Yeah, we didn't have we didn't have YouTube to watch or we didn't have Netflix, or we had two channels late and channel two wasn't much to choose from TV actually went off the air. Like it didn't start till 10 o'clock in the morning or something and I took the test pen at night when they're closing this day. Yeah, yep. So So you also couldn't entertain your children with tablets. Yeah, there was no such thing. So you know, you'd get them at the table painting or they'd stand up at the bench I had blue aprons for them and because there was a five year gap between the first two and and the last one that the oldest two would stand up at on chairs at the bench with a little aprons on and they'd help me make biscuit they put the fork marks on the biscuits or make the bowl or you know, I mean the days were full by the time I did all that and we had cloth nappies and no it was a competition between me and the neighbor as to who had the widest nappies on the line and I one by one great soaking soaking nappies and rinsing nappies and all those things. They took time it was though the days were full. Yeah, literally was a full time job. Yep. We've talked about your identity, sort of shift, you know, when the guilds moved, yeah. Because you so strongly wanted to be a man when you became a monk. Was it? Was it what you thought it was gonna be? Or did you was did you sort of your idea? It was it was mostly it was to everything. Yeah, right. I wanted it to be. Yeah, it was. It was everything and I and I'd be lying if I said it was like that every day. Yeah, yeah, there's always ups and downs. Because there were, there was many a day, sitting on a nappy bucket in the laundry with the door shut sobbing into my own arm. While while I could hear the kids laughing out there, you know, there was many a day and I had horrible postnatal depression with my second baby. I had a planned C section she was breech, and they she wouldn't turn say 10 days before her due date. I had a C section. I was partway through her had had an epidural. So I could be awake for it. But they were partway through, bring her out and the epidural wore off. And at that time, it was it was up on the Hill Hospital. And it was a teaching hospital. They were 13 Student midwives in the theater. And I could see my reflection in the theater light. I could see the screener. Oh, it was it was the worst. It was the worst. So they had a head out. And I got I started to get feeling back. And And I'm saying I can feel that I can feel it. And I was starting to panic. And Dr. Foy is saying remember Dr. For you at all, Dr. Boyce saying no. It's just the you can feel the sensation. I said, No. I can feel it. I can feel it. And I was like I was starting to arrive. Oh, God. He's saying can you keep that? Can you keep that woman still? And so like I said, What had happened is the epidural had had blocked but she hadn't blocked the nerve she was laying on. So once they moved her the it just it hadn't worked in that particular spot. Oh my god. So I've got this gaping wound. And I've got complete sensation. So my last memory that they got her out and they put her on my chest thinking that that would calm me down and I'm just pushing her off, you know, so she they grabbed her and lost my last memories, then putting the air hose down my throat while I wasn't out and I'm like I was clawing at it trying to get out. Anyway, I woke up in recovery and all was good. Sorry, I had a big reaction to that because I had zerion and I felt that I didn't feel the pain that you feel but I could feel everything and it scared the shit out. I just did not enjoy it horrible. It was either now I'm feeling goosebumps. Sorry. No, I should have warned you. Yeah, no, that's all right. Yeah, that's a horrible story. I'm so sorry. I mean, they ushering all the once they realized it was serious, it was for real. Like she's not pretending like as if you would like it was bullshit. absolute bullshit. Don't listen to a woman and she's brilliant, but it wasn't them that I thought it was bullshit. It was once I got a bit stronger in the years later. I'm like, that was bullshit. Yeah, because you should listen to me the first time and not worry Well, I would it was wasn't April Fool's Day, by the way I wasn't, you know, it wasn't a joke. But I knew, I knew they knew I was serious when they started ushering all the midwives out and like, ya know, everybody out and Tony had to go out so it was, you know, they put me under and, and then I woke up. I woke up and everyone had already handed my baby around. You know, it wasn't it wasn't it was in that time where that stuff wasn't sensitive either. Maybe students stay with you. They went into a little room didn't No, no, no, no, she she she was in the room. But once they got me from recovery and took me back to the room. Yeah, the baby was me. It was already in the room and family were there and they had already passed around. And because I because it took me a long time to understand why I got postnatal depression cuz I didn't get it the first time. Yeah, yeah. But when I look back, I felt robbed. I felt wrong because I had to have a C section. Yes, I had a fantastic vaginal birth the first time so I just assumed that I was gonna be able to do that again. And she was nine pounds one so I thought well, I heaps of fun. Really. I'm gonna get this one out because she was a lot smaller. But you can't plan a breach. I mean, she just wasn't she was a footbridge. So she had one leg straight and one arm up over her head and went down the side. So she was all over the shot. And if one legged come out first, it was going to be a bit of a catastrophe. They said, so anyway. And then following that, like breastfeeding went, Well, I loved breastfeeding. I mean, I know. I know. There's mums that don't like it but loved it, love, love, loved it. That went well. Then when I got discharged from hospital, I got a urinary tract infection and had a reaction to the antibiotics. And I'm talking a urinary tract infection where I was walking around with an ice cream bucket. Because I literally couldn't get to steps without feeling like I had to pee and I was paying blood and it was pretty hard. So once I got the antibiotics, right, that started to clear up but me it was 10 days old and postnatal depression hit like, like a sledgehammer. Like I was in the fetal position in the laundry on the floor. Just asking for my mom, I couldn't don't don't even give me a baby don't even hand it to me because I'm not interested in even looking at looking at her plus, I had a toddler as well. So my husband called my mom and my mum came in and mum said You know, you've got two kids to look after here, you need to pull yourself together. And, and that was the right thing to say in the moment for mum. But it's probably not what I needed to hear. I wanted, I think I wanted mum to say. And again, I don't want them to think that she did anything wrong. But I think I wanted them to say it's going to be okay. It's just going to be okay. So they're not calling the GP to the house. And anyone that knows Dr. Krause Doctor class came, she was whispering. And I'm like, I'm sobbing and she's whispering so to hear her had to stop crying. And she's kneeling at my feet. And she's got her hands on my knees and and she's, you know, tapping me and she's talking me through it. So I end up back in hospital for seven days. And no visitors just just me and the end the baby and family could come look at the girls and had Cassie and Tony could come but no other visitors. And they sent me she was a clinical psychologist but she was specialized in postnatal depression. So, I've got, I've got my A C section, I've got my urinary tract infection. I've got these these boulders on my chest that are just squirting milk everywhere you feel like a piece of shit. And they send me this blonde blonde bombshell. She walks in and she's stunning. She's got she's got the she's got it all going on. And I'm like, What the fuck. So you think you are not going to be able to help me in any way. Anyway, she was the best thing that ever happened. And I use skills that she taught me then as I still use them today. You know, like, reverse to do lists, you know, you're right, you're right you to do list. But you add the things on at the end of the day that you also did so that you feel like you really achieved at the end of the day. She also taught me she taught me to write a to do list with two things on it, get out of bed and feed everybody. That's it. That was all all I had to do when I went home was get out of bed and feed, just feed everyone, nothing else. And that got me through because I realized who they really were the two, the only two things I needed to do and the most important things and yes, she was amazing. I saw her for quite some time after just doing a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy and just you know how I was talking to myself and I those things and yeah, she got me back on my feet. Yeah, looks are deceiving. She looked amazing, but she had some great skills. Yeah, I know saying that was just how I felt in the moment. But I remember thinking that I remember thinking what? Yeah, what could you send me everyone the actual opposite to exactly. But as far as being a mum, I just, I just loved it. I just loved it. You know, I didn't like it every day. And it wasn't a reflection on my girls, I loved my girls every day, you know, there were days and plenty of milk downs, but in the, the essence of being a mum, I loved it. And I loved. Yeah, I loved. And I just I tried so hard. I remember being very conscious of how I parented my girls, and tried so hard to get it right. And I didn't always because there's no such thing as a perfect mom, or a perfect human being for that matter. But I did my best. And, you know, the, the, you know, for me the the biggest evidence that I that we as parents got something right, is watching them as adults is, is watching them as functional human beings in the community. And hearing other people that have interacted with them tell you that they're beautiful people, or that they did something for them, just out of the goodness of their heart and how amazing that was. And I don't know what to tell the girls when I hear that. Yeah, but I quite often do. And it just, you know, tear up my mom and I have a stray dog syndrome, we call it where we take in people. And we rescue people. Yes. And my mum, like we never knew who was going to be at our Christmas table because Mum and Dad did Meals on Wheels. And they often picked up a stray along the way and we'd love them all. But that's mum and dad were like that. And I think, you know, I was a bore witness to that through my life. Yeah. And I was rescued the animals as a kid, I bought the bird home that had been, you know, clawed by a cat or, you know, whatever. I bought lots of things home that had to go back. Because we couldn't keep more than something you can't walk past something and not do something and not who wants to do that with worms. Yeah, you're in the wrong spot could go back into nails. I know this, you're gonna get eaten up eventually. Because that's the cycle of life. But I feel like you gotta give them a crack. Yeah, you gotta give me exactly what I think you should have seen me and my gardening business. You know you if it was an early morning, mow all the snails. Pick them all up all of them. Yeah. And I had one customer saw me doing one day and she actually she actually told me off, she said, So you're putting them all back. And I'm gonna put snail bait over there. So we you do what you need to do when I'm gone. But I can't run them with my lawnmower. I'm sorry. And I would spend ages because sometimes there's 3040 Snails going across the lawn at seven o'clock in the morning. Now Leah would have to pick them all up in the bucket and put them all over there. That's just me. But that's it was it's yeah, it's not. For me. It's not what my girls have achieved in their work life or, you know, they've all done amazing things. It's who they are as people who they are as human beings and and now that I've watched them parent and they all parent, I've got two that have human babies and one that has had beautiful cat babies. And that all she parents, those cat babies, just like they were here human babies. And they're just they just have beautiful hearts. And um, that's what I'm proudest of. Yeah, I think Well, we did something right to make them to give them that start. They can choose to do whatever they want to do with that, but they've certainly gone on and you know, continued on with that, which makes me happy. Yeah. I love that. That is wonderful. There's one point about it that blindsided me when I became a grandparent for the first time. Yeah. And I realized, probably just to say it now. Yeah. So when my first grandchild was born, all my mum friends that had already become grandparents had sent you just wait, you just wait. You're not going to believe how amazing it is. And I knew it would be amazing. But nothing prepared me for not only how amazing it was, but the emotion had bought up. For the end of an era for me. Yeah, right. And I never ever thought about it. Someone should write a book. Maybe Maybe I'll write a book. But when when she came home from the hospital, and they, they, because COVID hit pretty soon after. So once we got through that, and I was able to then go to the house and be a part of it. I couldn't stay. Because it because it wasn't my it wasn't my turn. It wasn't my baby. Yeah. Yeah. And that was, that was heart wrenching. And I don't know if that makes sense. But it was I knew I knew. I mean, it wasn't delusional. I knew she wasn't my baby. Right? Yeah. But the last time I'd been hands on with a baby, they were my babies. And I got to witness the whole journey. And all I wanted to do was witness the whole journey. But when the realization came that I had to go home, and I couldn't witness the whole journey. It broke my heart. Yeah. Yeah. Because I wanted to watch. I wanted to watch my daughter, parent. Her daughter. Yeah. And I couldn't I couldn't watch it all. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So I found that really hard. Once I got once I once I realized, and I, and I sort of went through my own emotions. Yeah. It was fine. Yeah, he right. No, didn't expect it out that day. No, it's not. It's all this excitement and happiness. And but it literally is an it is a defined end of, you know, one year at the start of another year, and all the the emotions and they're involved in that transition. Yeah. Because if you can picture to, like, I've got my two hands up facing each other, if you can picture. This was this is my daughter, and this is me. And we're facing each other. Yeah. When when your children have their own children, they turn, they turn around, and they face a different direction. Yeah. And she's still they still turn back. And they're still. I mean, we're, we're very close. We're all very close, I get a lot of phone calls, and I get a lot of sharing and all the things I don't miss a thing. But it's different. It's it's like, okay, well, it's a definite, it's a it's a transition. It goes from, what it's just you, it's just the mother and the daughter. I think maybe it's particularly with mothers and daughters, I would imagine, to, it's now it's now well, you're there, and they'll they'll come to you when they need you. But But you literally have to just stand in the background. And you only get to be a part of what you're allowed to be a part of. Yeah, that makes sense. And like it was a very generous, I'm not making it sound like, you know, they're very inclusive and share so much. I mean, FaceTime, I get FaceTime. And I get all the things and it's amazing. But you really you only get to be a part of what that will enable you to be a part of or what time allows you to be a part of because you're not hands on all the time. That was a really big. Yeah, they were big realizations and very emotive for me. I'm and I'm a very feeling person. I feel deeply. And that was not something I expected to feel at all. Yeah, that's that's a really good point. Yeah, that's a really good point. And you want to be there? Oh, yeah. Like you light up? No, it's not. And I don't mean to tell them what to do. Because they're doing amazing. But just to be just to be there. Again, part of the party for finding your identity again. Yes. Well, now, I have to learn what a grandmother is because I've never been a grandmother. So I have to learn what that means and how I navigate that to how it works for me, but most of all, how it works for them. Yeah, it's always things you don't think I was like, I'm thinking of that. Oh, great. I'm not making it sound like life is a series of lessons. Yeah. And he's always evolving and changing in your learning all the time. You know, you think you think puberty, childbirth, menopause, you think maybe there's just the three men let me tell you, I've, there's there's been a million of those and you just think, okay, are we there yet? Please, I don't need any more details with this one. I know I could be I could. You know, I admire some people for their care and easy, free and easy attitude and they can just You just move on. I'm not that person. Because I feel I just feel everything exactly. And I have what I have to feel it. And I have to go through the whole process to understand it. And if I can't understand it, then I struggle. But once I can understand it and and you journal about it or read a book about it, then I can. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good to go. Do you mind if we talk about the shared experience we had with decluttering? No, not at all. Yeah, it's interesting. As I over the long weekend, no joke would have been 15. Garbage bags full of clothes. Plus, for more, just probably 20 to five more now that I've given to my mom and my sister. And the emotional experience of going through those clothes. I just thought my husband laughed at me because I every now and then I have to break and I was in tears. He's like, What are you doing? I'm like, that this was the when I had the baby. This is what I was, you know, all these boots. Huge, much stuff. And I can't believe the amount of stuff I had stickerless the amount of stuff I had. But yeah, would you mind sharing the experience you had doing that? So I've got a massive wardrobe, but I had a lot in it. And I'm not a hoarder. But I hold on to things that mean something to me or for whatever reason. Anyway, my oldest daughter, Cassie Blissett. And Hart said, when I come home on the long weekend, why would you want me to help you clean out your wardrobe? I said, Sure. Let's do that. And I'm pretty sure Mia was going to be a part of it too. But she had to fly back a day earlier. So she was had already gone home. But as it got closer, I was backpedaling. And I was saying to her, ah, look, honestly, I'll be good. I'll just do it when you're gone. Because I think we're going to run out of time. It's you know, like, want to spend more time with Ali and you know, all the things. She said, I'm not going to make you but I'm happy to do I really love doing that. Anyway, we all end up going to bed. That's her little boy who end up going to bed and we thought oh, now's a good time. So we she said look, let's just take everything out and we'll throw it on the bed. So we took it all out put on the bench. He said you just pick up each item and I'm not going to pressure you just do whatever you want it well some things were an absolute that's got to go that's got to go and I had no problem with those. And then there was a so we had it that's got to go pile. We had a might try that on and just see pile. And then we had a definite that's not because I really love that. So the definitely not going things. Cassie was color coding. And because that's her. She was colored. She she she was a bit visual merchandiser for JJs for many years. So she's got it. I think she was color coding all my clothes as they were going back in the wardrobe. We did we got that all done. And it was some of them. I was holding up and she's shaking her head before I even made her mind up. She's going No. So I took her lead and got rid of it. So then we've got we've got that done. And she she pulled the door closed and the walking robe and I had all my dressing and hang up. And she said, for God's sake, how many dressing gowns does one person need? And I said, Well, that one's my winter one because I like that color. And that one's my winter one because that one collects cat here. Well, now that the cats are outside and don't come inside anymore, I can wear that one. And this is my summer one that short is my summer one that's long. And this one's one that Georgia brought me back from Thailand. And this one's one that you guys bought me for Mother's Day and I can't bear to part with it. She said what about and she said okay, so pick your favorite long one and pick your favorite short one. And I said, like took me ages. I just couldn't. I ended up narrowing it down. And we did that. And she said, What about this skanky? Oh, green thing here. And it's not it's it's just a short telling dressing gown that I absolutely love. And she said, I think I gave this to you. Like years ago. She said, I think we were still I think your dad was still together when I had this. And I said, Yeah, that's right. And I couldn't I could feel the emotion coming up. Yeah. And she said, Well, you don't you'd can't possibly need that now. And she was she didn't realize that I was getting emotional about it. She said you can't possibly need that. Now you got all these other ones that are much nicer. She said, Oh, that's nice, but it's not that nice. And I said I just like to keep it because it means something to me. It's sentimental. And she said I don't I don't understand. Or I just burst into tears because I don't think I understood it myself. And I said to her I think I think it's one of the last connections to our family life. I said because I remember you wearing it when we used to sit in the lounge around Fire. We were watching TV all together, the five of us together. And she said, are really, ma'am. And I said, Yeah. And I said, and you know, I said, I know it's a funny thing to say, but sometimes I put it on. If I'm feeling really flat, I'll wear it. Yeah. And it makes me think of a view. And, you know, it's not like I miss my sight. Like, I want my husband back, saying that it's the vehicle. It's the unit. It's the family unit. And they weren't all bad times. There were some really good times in there. And we wouldn't have been together for 22 years. I said, sometimes I put it on when she said on. And she said, I wished you just said that I wouldn't have pressured you. And I said, Well, you didn't really pressure me, I said, but I would like to keep that one. So then she just lovingly picked it up, and she just hold it back on the, on the coconuts, and I've kept it and you know, probably I may not ever wear it, you know, but I like to, I like to have it because that's what it means. But yeah. How, like how emotion fueled, is addressing again, like, it's crazy. And I didn't realize until it looked like it was gonna go. Yeah. And it's the one warning item that I kept. It's the only thing I kept that that made me really emotional. I got rid of so many. I mean, I don't know how many garbage bags you said, but I think I had eight. I got it all went to the shop. And yeah, and I was I was happy to see them go. Just an add on to that. My beautiful partner. He's He's so hands on when it comes to helping with things. And the next day, I went back into finish off things in there. And I had all the bags all lined up. And he said are how much have you got left to go? And I said, I've just got a couple of things to finish. And I'd really like to take them all together when I'm finished. And he said, Well, how about I just laid all these in the car and take them. And then when you finish the others tomorrow, you can take them and I said Ah, but I really I really am selective about where I want them to go. Because I know where I know which up shop I want them to go to and everything. And he said, Oh, that's right, I can do that. I'll just do that. And I said, ah might just wait till tomorrow. And then when I'm finished and I was trying not to make a big deal. But I will say could see he just wanted to help. And I'm thinking oh, he just wants to help. So I said, Okay, all right. Well, you do that. I think I was a bit huffy. When I said it. I said to you just you just take them then. So he loaded them all in the car. And when he got them all in the car, I thought, I've got one last reason why maybe he'll just bring them all back. So when at the end, I said, I just want to take a photo of them all together. So I could send them to Cass and show her how I ended up. And he said we'll take a photo of him in the car. So I looked at the car, and I said it's not quite the same. And so I just came back inside. So he drove off. And I watched him. Like I watched him drove off and I sat there sobbing on the bed. Because I wanted to do it. It was it was closure for me to do it. And I wasn't going to take anything out and keep anything but it was just closure for me. When he came back. He could see I'd been crying. And he said, what's wrong? And I said, I didn't want you to do that. I wanted to do it myself. And he went anyway, sadly, we had a bit of an argument about it. Because he said you should have made it clear. And I said Well, I'm not going to spell it out like you're five. I said I didn't want you to take him and there was a reason. And he was heartbroken. He had he got really emotional too. He said I wouldn't hurt you for the world. And I said, I know that. And I know you didn't do it to hurt me. And maybe I should have really explained myself. But I said I feel like that's been ripped away from me. And I haven't had a chance to close it. But I got over it the next day, but it was so yeah, so powerful. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I can really I can understand that. Because it's like that last, it's that last act of letting it go. You know, I did that when I put my stuff in the in the funny bin thing. And as I was driving away, I was just bawling. It's like I I wanted this stuff to go. So it's not like oh, yeah, I get that. It's just that. I know that part of my life is truly gone. Yeah, that was exactly what it was. Yeah. Because I had I had other things in there too, like, like yourself that, that I can tell you when I bought them and where I was and all the things and they had meaning. And that's why I wanted to select where they went. I wanted to see where they went. Yeah. And I wanted to be responsible for where they went, Jeremy I wanted it to be me that did it. And and even though he came back and said exactly where he took them and I believe that he did you know I'm not saying that. I just wanted to do what like you did drive away and if I needed a tear I needed a tear and I probably want to do it by myself. Yes. Oh, yeah, I did. My mom was here. Yeah, it's yes. Yeah. And yeah, it was like some of the stuff. I laughed. I thought why if I still got these and then I'd be going oh, I know what I still got this because you know, it reminds me of this. This particular time in my life or whatever. And some things I was so happy to let go of Yeah, I didn't even think twice like you know how you say when you picked it up my daughter said that being before it sort of lifted. I was like oh what am I stupid that for whatever but then other things. Some things are just definite. There's no and even the keepers some things would definitely always keep it even if she said no. Now we say well, I love it. I actually love this and I love wearing it. I feel good when I wear it. So I'm keeping it. I kept stuff that I'll never wear again, but the sentimental value years sentimental like that. Like you're not I don't. I don't my husband would say I'm a hoarder, but I don't think I'm a hoarder. But I think important to me. Yeah. So I've got these jumper jumper that my Nana wore, than I used to wear when I was a kid. So I've kept that I've got a little drawer now we're off. Yeah, I've cleaned out keepsakes. I don't want to pay. Yeah. And yeah, so many things I gave to my mom and my sister because I didn't want to part with. I'd like to still see them in my life. Yeah, so you know where they are. Lovely. But no pressure. I say no pressure. If you don't like it, you know, obviously, but I don't see I can live with that. Yeah, I can give it to someone and say, Look, I'd like you to have it. And if you feel like getting rid of it, just get rid of it. Yeah. Because once I've left it, they're not it's out of control, then yeah, you just want what happens? Yeah. You know, I'm gonna sign him. You have to keep that? Yeah, no, no, no. And I say that to my girls, like I've got, you know, I've got a couple of big tubs of things of my mum and dads that are from their grandpa from my grandparents or from their parents that are out there all wrapped up in some, you know, probably probably some valuable things maybe. But I've shown my girls where they are and what they are. And I've explained what they are. And I said to them, I'm keeping them because it means something to me. Obviously, when I'm gone, I won't know but do not have an ounce of guilt. If you need to take the whole box to the shop. Because they might not mean anything to you. It's another generation or Yes, so don't seem cool. I just don't want them to be saddled with that guilt that that people feel when Sr. But someone gave that to me back in 1927. And I don't want to part with it. It probably doesn't mean anything to them. You know, she found that that reminds me of when grandpa passed away when we're going through his stuff. And you'd find things What the hell is he kept this for? Now? It's obviously very good reasoning. He was more of a hoarder. My Dad Yeah, my dad's got. Yeah, but you know, there's a reason for Yeah, no, yeah. And I sort of felt a little bit like, I should keep this because he was important to him. But then the end of the day, I thought I can't keep everything. There's just so much stuff here. And as it was I took boxes of stuff that I hadn't even done anything with. They're just sitting there because I just couldn't bear to let them go. Yeah, but you know, over time, that might change. You know, it's only been coming up 12 knots. I think, I think from what I saw of Rob's situation when his mom passed away and we we cleaned her house he bought we bought a heap of stuff here and a lot of we had a garage sale or we gave it away or whatever. But there's some stuff that we kept in the shed. Yeah, and bit by bit some of its gone. Yeah, over time. But it's time and I've said that to rob my my parents, there'll be things that I said prepare to clear out half the shed to make room for it when I have to do it for my parents. And I said and over time, I'll whittle it down. But in the moment I'll it'll be a part of them and I'll have to hang on to it. I just won't be able to part with it. So you just have to bear with that. I think that's a it's a process that is part of the morning. I think it is part of the grieving it's it happens stage by stage as you go through. Yeah, absolutely. So what's worse, I'll put all the links to all your socials but we're what's Where do you Where are you most active is like Instagram or Facebook. Where do you like people to get in touch with? I loves Instagram Stories. I've had to cut down my Instagram stories because I think I love your story when you're going from Yeah, but I think I put too many. I think I put too many slides. I'm like I've I do whatever you lost, share them like I'm doing it. But yeah, but people's eyes glaze over. I'm sure that I can probably swipe past most of those, you know, it's who I am. That's the thing. Yeah. Do you do what you like, and then everyone else can sort themselves out I love I love Instagram stories because I feel like I'm a loves telling stories. So I like I like that part of it. I mean, I'm I'm on Facebook and Instagram. So that's pretty much pretty much all I'd like to blog again. But yeah, I don't know. I'd like to blog about so many things. And I've come back to Facebook several times and told everyone Hey, because because I might sometimes I'll write something that's nothing to do with food. It's a life thing because I'm deep in and I like all that sort of stuff. And people love it. Yeah, like, like the response I get from people. I get it. I'll get private messages from all of them. And then I'll come back straight after and Okay. Ah, seems like people really liked that. I'm going to do more of it now like i and publicly announced I'm doing it, then I don't do it. Because then again, I get that whole. Well, really who wants to hear about my grandparenting journey? And how I feel about that? Probably no one, but I think I can see, but I can see who my audience are like that three and a half 1000 people, but I can see how many of them are my age demographic. Yeah. And probably at a similar life stage. And even if they're not, what's going to happen to them do see, it's probably worth talking about. So I often think of doing that. And I think maybe we'll have a separate blog, and I think I want to just do it there. Yeah. If people don't want to, they can scroll by Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Don't read it. If you don't, if it's not your thing, don't read it. Then I feel bad because I've got men in there. And I think I'm always going to speak about women's things. But I'm a woman. yet. I don't know how to talk from a man's perspective. They can start their own blog if they wish I you know, this whole thing with social media. It's like you can think too much about Yeah, I think just do what yeah, maybe I should stop overthinking at you. Yeah, sorry. I'm pointing and everyone else like complete themselves. Yes, what I probably say, because sometimes I feel like sometimes a topic comes into my head, like, like talking about the grandparent thing. And I think I'm gonna write so much about that. Yeah. And, and like a couple of things. I said that you see, you hadn't thought of Yes. Because you haven't had that experience yet. I guess I also don't want. I don't want to get on there and tell a story like that. And people think, Oh, is it does it seem like a wind but anything my stuff sounds like a winch. No, doesn't sound like I like I like to just sharing it a deep feeling or a thought, you know, I really, I really enjoy that. That's how I connect with people. And I think it gives people other people permission to share the same vulnerabilities that I share. I'm very, I'm very, very for that. I think that we don't talk enough about stuff. When it comes to mental health issues. I am all about that, like just got to talk about, because the more we talk about it, the more we talk about it, and it just grows on itself. You know, it becomes not a stigma thing that we're all too scared to mention. It's part of life, and more people would have it than wouldn't mass. You know, it's just gonna say that. Yeah. And I don't anyone that mocks anyone with any kind of mental health issue, mild, severe or otherwise needs to have a look at themselves because it's debilitating. And as I said, people, like, out there, I'm one of the most bubbly, you know, like, that's the thing. It's easy. And I'm not putting that on. I'm like that when I get comfortable. Yeah. But I'm, if anyone's seen the not so great side of me as in, you know, they've, I've not been my best self and my best behavior are probably don't feel comfortable with them. Because when I because when I truly feel comfortable with someone, I'm the most loving, giving, thoughtful, deep, sharing person you could ever meet. But I have to feel comfortable. Yeah. And if if I've got my guard up, I can't be myself. I can't give the best of myself. So it isn't it. And it's sad that I can't do that. But I can't pretend either. I'm very transparent. So I can understand so what's, what's in the future for jazz? Frank? What's here? Oh, if I could claim me. I mean, I'm a grandparent. Now. I think, man, just Frank will, it will be there as long as you know, I can. As my body will stand there and do that as long as people wanting my, my goodies. I'll keep doing it. Because I really, I really love it. And just a little side note to that, I think. I think my business also grew from the perspective that it's we're not empty nested. My just Frank family became the people because that's how I show my love. So I show I love people, I cook for them. If I care about you, you can be sure you're gonna get some food because that's how I look I just add even and it's probably why I want it to be my two hands because anyone that buys my food, you can be guaranteed I love what I do. And I'm usually listening to something amazing while I'm doing it might be a Formula One podcast because I'm a massive fan. Oh my god. Oh, All right, folks, let's not get started that was talking about David Ricardo said the whole thing said I just My heart breaks for him and I and he's such a such a. He's such a beautiful character on on track like he's in the paddock. He's just so loved there. I can't believe that haven't given him a seat. I can't believe it. Just yeah. But anyway, that's another podcast. I'll be talking to you later about that. Next week after the Japan Grand Prix. We'll have a chat about that. Yeah, yeah. So I wouldn't do that. You know, what, you're, it's you it's literally us. It is, and, and my family. My my girls were grown on home cooking. And that's that was part of when I started the business. I just wanted to, like I wanted to keep cooking for other people. I couldn't. I literally stopped cooking when I have done nested because when I was looking when when there were no children around, it was hard to cook for one. Yeah. So I just cooked something random for myself. But I stopped baking, I stopped making all these beautiful things that my kids used to have, of course, then the girls went through there were watching our Wait, man, we can only have two biscuits, not the whole jar, you know, whereas back then they gobble them up, not have to make some more. But yeah, that's, I mean, so anyone, anyone listening that buys my food for my family. That's, that's why I do it is I love it. I love it. And I'm meant to, someone told me once it was actually Maurice Dickens from I said to He wants us I can't keep up with like the range of stuff that I've got. And he said, narrow it down to your pick your top five, and narrow it down to that. Now also anyone that's listening that sees how many products I have out there, I think I think there's about 35 different things that I make and counting. Because Because Tony, Tony Verona so so she would message me say we're the shelves that their mother hubbard shows up there, we need some more goodies. She doesn't she doesn't order, it doesn't tell me what she wants. So I just go, right, had this idea. I reckon that fudge that they would be great dipped in chocolate with more chocolate drizzled with grated chocolate on the top. So then I'll just come up with the 35 goes to 36. So I've got and of course, I have to put all these in the computer for my invoicing system. So I can see how many there are. So I just keep using my imagination and making new things. So on that all the recipes are your own, that you tweak or people come up with. Yeah, you asked Rob, they're just things that I come up with come in there. And he'll say, so what are we making today? And I'm not sure yet. Not quite sure yet. And most of them aren't written down, which I've just started to document them. Sorry, for because what it is, it is pretty funny. If you're not, maybe you're going to sell your business one day. But one day if I'm going to sell the business, and I and and someone says okay, so what are you selling up sell what's all in here? It's all in my head. They can't sell that. And besides that, I mean, if I don't sell the business, and my girls want to do something with it, I'm going to give it to them. And they might decide to do something with it. And I need to have them written down. So I've just started to do that. So yeah, so if you buy something, and I mean, actually, having said that there are the things that I package are written down. But like these things aren't written down. So if you do happen to buy the rocky road, and it tastes different one day than the next Can I tell you a funny story. I just sent the Biscoff rocky road to Adelaide. And when I was cutting it up ready to box it I realized I hadn't put the almonds in. Ah, so I rang. I message him and I said I've boxed it all up and it's on its way but just be prepared. There's no harm in doing this. I think it's because everyone was home and I had had my kitchen door shut and I was working in there but I could hear everything going on. I'm like I just want to get this done because I want to get back to being with the family. There's no elements in that one. There's extra biscuits because when I was mixing I thought I don't know what's going on. He doesn't seem like there's enough. So I had an extra biscuit. So it's really crunchy but just not with almonds. Sorry about that Adelaide. So yeah, so I'm not sure what's next. Um, I'm just doing what I'm doing. Loving doing what I'm doing and while people are still wanting me to do it, I'll keep doing it. That's awesome. Would it be fair to say, I'm just taking the liberty here? There's anyone that's listening that's interested in veganism or vegan lifestyle. Would you be happy to chat? 2%? And as I said, very, I'm very, you know, fluid with all of that I, everyone's got to start somewhere. I mean, I didn't go vegan overnight. Yeah, it wasn't a cold turkey thing. So I get the transition. And I can certainly give people plenty of tips on how to add, just add a few meals or I mean, there's no end of recipes out there. Yeah, I mean, you've just got a Google vegan curry, vegan anything. And you'll find some recipes. But yeah, I'm more than happy. And if anyone wants to talk about the ethical side of it. I'm pretty passionate about that topic. Yeah, I just don't. I just don't go there a lot. Because not everyone wants to hear that. Yeah. But if someone wants to, you will share 100% Yeah, absolutely. I'm always open to that inbox me, you know, my phone numbers on all my products on the label. So call me message me whatever. I need say, Yeah, of course, I'm always and I've done a fair bit of that over the years, I've done a, you know, talk to a lot of people about that kind of thing. I mean, I've, I've wanted to get back to doing another talk at the library at some time. It's something like that would be fun. Not necessarily about that, but maybe a cooking, you know, like a cooking demonstration where we can just casually chat at the same time. You know, I know the library's open to that. So that's if that's something that's interesting to people and they'd like to do that. Perhaps give me a yell or comment on your on the podcast post or whatever. And yeah, we can organize that too. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much. I've really loved it. love chatting with you. And thank you for your honesty and your openness and your vulnerability. It's just been such a joy chatting with you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you very much to thank you for your goodies which have made a hole in we can take the rest time if you're lucky you have your everyday thanks, Alison. Thank you

Andrea Rees Australian mixed media visual artist + creativity coach S2 Ep47 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts My guest today is Andrea Rees, a mixed media artist and creativity coach from East Corrimal, NSW, and a mum of 2 boys. Originally from Vancouver, Canada, Andrea left for Australia at the age of 20 to study mixed media, her main mediums being photography, painting, drawing and ceramics. After graduating Andrea spent 4 years in advertising in account management. After realising it was not filling her creative cup enough. Andrea did further study and became a high school art teacher. After her 2nd son was born, ongoing health concerns meant that the ongoing level of support that he needed guided Andrea to make the decision to return to her art, and the next phase of her life began. Andrea is also a coach for mums who are searching for their creativity. She wants to help and support mums who went through what she went through, who lost themselves in their motherhood, and can find themselves again through art and creativity. Today we chat about trusting our mothering instincts, how the urging from a friend turned her life around after having her first child and the joy Andrea takes from supporting other mums. And the ever popular topic, the value we as society place on art, and the people who make it. **This episode contains graphic descriptions of birth stories, birth trauma, PTSD and a childhood chromosome disorder** Andrea links / Instagram / Creative Village Facebook page Podcast website / Instagram MakeShift Creative See the painting my son Digby helped me complete When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is a pleasure to have you here. My guest today is Andrea Reyes. Andrea is a mixed media artist and creativity coach from East caramel in New South Wales, and she's a mom of two boys. Originally from Vancouver in Canada, Andrea left for Australia at the age of 20. To study mixed media, her main mediums been photography, painting, drawing and ceramics. After graduating, Andrew spent four years in advertising in account management, after realizing it was not feeling her creative cup enough. Andrea did further study and became a high school art teacher after his second son was born. Health Concerns meant the ongoing level of support he needed, guided Andrea to make the decision to return to her art and the next phase of her life began. Andrea is also a coach for moms who are seeking and searching for their creativity. She wants to help and support mums who went through what she went through those who have lost themselves in motherhood, they can find themselves again through art and creativity. Today we chatted about trusting our mothering instincts, how the urging from a friend turned her life around after having her fifth child. And the joy Andrea takes from supporting other moms and the ever popular topic, the value where society plays on it, and the people who make it. This episode contains graphic descriptions of birth stories, birth trauma, PTSD, and childhood chromosome disorder. Welcome to the podcast today, Andrea, it's a pleasure to have you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. You're in Sydney. Yes. So your accents, not from Sydney. We're events. So originally, I'm from Vancouver, Canada. And I've got an Australian father and a Canadian mom raised me in Vancouver. And then when I was 20, I took off and finished my degree of Visual Arts at Sydney Uni and just wanted to do something different. So yeah, that's it. Awesome. So you mentioned visual arts tell us what you do what you create. So I'm a mixed media artist. And I'm also a coach for moms who want to find their creativity. So my main medium is photography and painting. Drawing. And my major at uni was ceramics. So I really love ceramics, but it's just a bit of a harder medium to work with when you don't have the equipment. And it's kind of like a three stage process. So yeah, it's a lot more a lot more. More complex. That's why I think I've fallen really into photography and stuff because it's much more accessible and workable in motherhood. Yeah, for sure. So let's go back to the beginning. How did you first get into all these different types of creative? Oh, I guess I'm just through high school and my parents put me in ceramics from the age of 10. Just in our neighborhood. There's a lady who was doing it out of her garage, a mum and yet I did some workshops like a raccoon horse and stuff like that when I was young, just loved clay and then went through to college and like, just before and to uni and and yeah, you you do your foundational year where you kind of have a try of everything and yeah, I just really loved photography and in high school I just I loved the darkroom so much. And yeah, I was really fortunate that we had one in our school and yeah, I think it just sort of just developed it definitely was just a creative kid. And like, I remember days when it would be raining and mum would pull out like a paint by number set for me. And I just work on it at the dining table. And I just loved that sort of thing. So yes, over the years it kind of built and built and yeah, then yeah, did my degree and yeah, I just really, yeah, I loved ceramics at Sydney, uni. And, yeah, it was just, it was just really unfortunate. When I came out of there. I just had this concept in my head because I did clay that why can't do it now. Because I don't have the money. I don't have the materials. I don't have the equipment. So what am I going to do? So I kind of Yeah, stepped away for it for many years, which was now I look back and I think that's so sad. I lost so many years not being able to create. Yeah, but I think with everything you you create, like, everyone's creative, and I think you you express your creativity somehow, some way, you know, and I probably that's when I probably fell more into photography, because it was accessible. And I could use it all the time. Hmm, yeah. Did you sort of decide you were going to make a life with art, I suppose that it was going to be what you did? Mmm hmm. Yeah, I just kept coming back to it. And so after uni, I because I had this idea in my head that I couldn't continue with ceramics. I was like, you know, I'm an adult. I'm in the big world, like, how am I going to make money and but I still obviously, I'm interested in the arts. So I went into advertising, and I sort of fell into account management. And it just was not filling my creative cup enough. It was very administrative. And I liked working with the designers and stuff. But even a lot of them were really like, not super, you know, they they just said it was kind of making art for other people. It was what they wanted. Even the end decision was like the clients choice, obviously, some so they could be really creative with it, but it usually didn't fly. So yeah. So yeah, so I left advertising after four years. And then I decided to sort of my husband and I were going to settle down. So we moved down this way from Sydney. And then I studied at Wollongong, uni and did my Graduate Diploma of education. So became a high school art teacher. So yeah, that was kind of always my dream. And like growing up, I always thought I would be a great teacher. And yeah, it was I was kind of making that happen now. So I was at a good time in my life where you were going to start a family and stuff, and I thought this will be a good job for me. Yeah, but yeah, it's just funny, like just reflecting back and thinking about it, that there's just such a, you know, an idea in society that arts just not like the pathway to go for stability. And, you know, which is just so sad, because now being on the other side of that, I think it's totally up to you, like you're fully in control of making that happen. So yeah, it's just I think you just feel really unsupported along that journey. In Yeah, in society. So. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, you say that a lot of conversations I've had lately with mums have been around the value, and I mean, monetary value that we place on the arts. And a lot of it sort of has become really evident, I think with the shutdowns through the COVID time, like, all the footy clubs going and all the footy players were traveling across the borders, but there were all these restrictions, so no one could put on their shows like, you know, visual artists, performance, anything like that all shut down. It's like, well hang on a minute, like, every time you turn the radio on or the TV or, you know, you're watching a streaming service, everything's been made by a Creator by an artist and it's, I think it I hope people sort of woke up to that. People on the other side of the You know, yeah, the value of the arts in society is actually so huge. And it really makes our, it allows us to connect. It really makes our world like so much more interesting than if. Yeah, like, we went through a period of like two years where we just locked it down and how sad and people really, you know, struggled and suffered in that time. Like, just even just live music. Like, I don't think I realized how much I enjoyed going to live music and I'm not like a huge live music. You know, follower. I don't kind of, you know. Yeah. But, um, but I definitely, yeah, I enjoy it. And when bands come to town and stuff for gigs, yeah, play locally. Like, I love live music. So yeah, yeah. It's been an interesting time. Do you have an eye opener? So you've got some children? Can you share a little bit about them? Yes. So I've got two boys. So yeah, I think this is when my, like, I came around to my art and creativity was actually from motherhood. So my first boy is five years old now. So he's just starting kindergarten this year. So I feel like it's developing more and more as they grow up. But yeah, he's off to school. And my youngest is three now. So he's at daycare this year, three days a week. So he was two days last year. So yeah, it's exciting, because I'm just getting a little bit more time where I can do awesome stuff like this, and coaching and work on creating and art shows and stuff like that. So yeah, it's exciting. What's developing? Hmm. So going back to when maybe when it wasn't, so I wouldn't say exciting. I have so much time. How did you go? Sort of continuing to be able to create when you Oh, first child? Yeah. So um, I guess. So with my first child, I had a, I had a great pregnancy, like, I thought I was gonna be a really, I wasn't gonna thrive as a pregnant woman. But I actually just have absolutely loved it. I really enjoyed being pregnant my first time. But then I ended up having a traumatic birth and I had a really bad birth. So that was just, I think, such a shock to my husband and I, what we went through, and just such a poor start to parenthood. And then he had a lot of complications like reflux and food intolerances and that sort of thing. So we struggled, like in that first year, a lot just trying to survive. And then I really lost myself, I just thought the way to go with motherhood is like you devote your you know, just, you know, devote yourself to your kid, and, you know, give them everything you've got. And yeah, really depleted myself and lost my identity. And then it actually was a friend, another art teacher, an artist and a teacher, who I studied with, and we've worked together and stuff since that, she kind of approached me and was like, there's this art show coming up. I really think like, You should do it with me. And I was just like, oh, no, I can't do that. Like, oh, I think it was like, in three months time or something. And she was like, Yeah, you, you know, you could easily, you know, work on this on the weekends or something. And she just talked to me realistically, like, kind of make making these excuses that she doesn't have children. And I kind of thought, Oh, you don't know, because you don't have kids yet or what it's like, but what she was saying was making a lot of sense. Like I was just making these excuses. That completely didn't make any sense. And so I said, Yeah, you're right, actually, I could, I could go and photograph that. And then I could, you know, I could get it printed, and then I could start to put it on to it was plywood that we were working on. And I could probably lay that down and she offered to come and help me and everything. She was so supportive, great friend. And I thought Yeah, I can do this. Like I can totally do this. And then I ended up Yeah, I just I was so blown away by the result I got that I was so excited by it. And I felt amazing. Like through the process, I was like, This is me this is like, I've found myself again. And like, I was just, yeah, so happy that I was still mothering and but yet I was creating and being myself and I had this like, wonderful balance. And so after that, I entered another show, and I ended up making us at all, I'll just do one artwork again. And then I ended up producing for it was so that was great. I really loved it. Yeah. And then that's kind of been the way I've just continued. And she's been there along beside me saying, you know, what do you think about this? Like, should we enter this again? And yeah, she's been such a wonderful friend they fell pregnant again, we kind of got to a stage where we felt like things were manageable and easier. And, and yeah, we our son was kind of at the age where we wanted to add our second child, we wanted to have two kids. So we had our second child, that pregnancy was okay. Not as easy as the first but it was okay. birth was completely controlled planned, Cesar, because we were just so terrified of something happening again. But then, probably three months after he was born, we started realizing that he had a lot of complications, health concerns and stuff. And he wasn't thriving, and was so confusing, and really, really difficult time. And basically, it went on and on every month, there was something new going on. Something new popped up. That wasn't good. And you Yeah, I kind of had seen so many specialists and doctors and talked to so many people and everyone kept telling me to, you know, stop worrying and that you're you know, he'll he'll catch up because he was delayed and stuff. And all these red flags that were going off there was saying Don't worry about it, you know, it's nothing, nothing severe or anything. And anyway, by a year and a half, and neurologists said to me, you've kind of exhausted every avenue and do you want to do genetic testing? And I said, Yes, I want to do genetic testing, if that, you know, confirms anything. And so sure enough, it came back that he's got a chromosome disorder. So yeah, that was kind of like a huge relief, a bit, you know, difficult as well. But we finally had an answer to what was going on. And yeah, so he's got he's got some difficulties physically and mentally and like growth wise and stuff like that. So yeah, it just kind of then I kind of had all my answers. And I knew what I was dealing with what I was working with and going, Okay, this is going to change now because I don't think like I had returned to teaching. After having my first and in between there. I was also starting to teach art workshops and stuff with a company locally here called makeshift creative. So they, yeah, connect, like creative people in the community with the community. And so I was teaching art workshops, and I was entering art exhibitions and getting back into my art while raising my first son. And then I returned to work had my second son, and then I just could not get back to work. And I was like, Everyone kept saying, you know, when are you going to return and I wasn't, like coping very well. So people were kind of pushing that because they thought that might be good for me, I think, because I'm definitely someone who, yeah, I was happy to go back to work at like eight months with my first. Um, so then yeah, I just couldn't get back there. So then I decided, You know what I've got to, like, rethink this because I think going back to a high school setting and trying to teach art as well as like, my son is he goes to, you know, our sorry, speech therapy, physiotherapy, occupational therapy and music therapy. We take him swimming, so he's in a lot of things and it's kind of like a part time job in itself just working with him and stuff. So yeah, supporting him, so I just couldn't kind of return to that. So that's when I was like, I'm gonna start a business And art is definitely what I want to work in, like, definitely my passion. So yeah. And it's taken me that in itself has been like a year long journey of just discovering what exactly is it that I want to do? So I've kind of come all the way around and said, I want to help like moms who went through what I went through who kind of lost themselves in their motherhood. And I definitely feel like there needs to be more support for moms. And yeah, I'm just, I coach them and help them get back to their creativity find their creativity, or even moms who've never been kind of creative, and they see the benefit in it, because it's so important. So yeah, that's awesome. That is so great. Yeah. I love that. So long winded but no, no, no, no, that's so good night. I think that's just so wonderful. Because you're right there isn't there? Isn't anyone out there? I mean, you are now but there's no, I mean, like your friend said to you, like, there's no, like, it's not a formal thing that people go, right. Okay. So this is what happened. But now you can do this, and have you thought about this, or, or try this, or, you know, you're essentially taking on that role of the person that can. And because you've got that, you know, perspective yourself, you know, how hard it is, you can sort of see all the, the barriers, I suppose, and then just break them down and go. Yeah. A lot of my coaching is actually, like, it's, it's, it works on your thoughts. It's not, it's not strategy, like you should be doing this. Like, I'm not going to tell you, hey, what worked for me was entering art exhibitions, that got me back to my creativity. It's actually like, all mindsets. And it's like even looking back at my uni days, and when I left, like, I literally put my art down and walked away from it for probably, like, 15 years, like, like, serious artmaking for so long of my life, which is now I just feel so sad that that happened. And it was just a mindset thing that I was like, I can't I can't do this anymore, because I'm not at uni, and I don't have a job to like, support it, or I can't be successful with this and make money from it. Which actually, there's there's definitely, you know, that's just the thought that I had that stopped me from creating. Hmm. Which is the thing if you had had someone like, yeah, so yeah, actually, have you? Yeah, yeah. So that's why I feel like coaching is so important. And I meet with coach, so after this time, meet with my coach on a Tuesday. And, yeah, I have an hour session with her and she helps me with my business and, and supporting those moms. So yeah, I think it's such important work. It's, it's really, and it's all that kind of self care work. Like you're investing back into yourself. And like I yeah, basically, I create my art from, you know, the work I do with coaching and with, like, the work that my friend did for me, you know, that all came from that kind of work. So, yeah, that's so important. I think that's so great. Honestly, it feels like in a way, like you received that help, and you're sort of paying it forward. Yeah. You're, you're giving other moms the tools that you were able to gain? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So just basically taking, like what I've learned from my own experience, and then, yeah, helping other moms with it, who might be dealing with the same sort of thing can relate and stuff. So yeah, absolutely. I feel like it's really not, there's not too much of it out there. You know, like, it's kind of Nishi like, it's a little bit. Yes, specific, but I think it's really important. And I think, yeah, there's lots of mums. So and there's a whole range, like, there's moms who, you know, were quite successful before and have lost themselves completely, or there's, you know, moms who've never done it before. And they're like, Wow, I really like I love the benefits that she's getting from this. Like, I might have a go at art or some that are like, I used to love it in high school. I've had lots come to art workshops and say, you know, I've, I loved it in high school, and I've just never gotten back to it again. And I'd like to now in my motherhood like I would like to have a go again. Yeah. Is it really it's so important to have something for yourself, isn't it? Yeah. Away from your role as a mother? Yeah, that's been a huge like realization. I've got a five and a half year old it saved me five years kind of come around to the fact that actually, it's so important that my husband have his he's a surfer. And now he's just gotten really after at the end of COVID. He's gotten we live between the ocean and the escarpment. And so he's gotten really into downhill mountain biking. Right now he's kind of got the two to use, you know, if one's not good, or something like that. Appropriate. So, um, yeah, like, I think before I was very much like your father, now you need to be a dad and be here, you know, 24/7 and devote everything to your children. And actually, that just burns you out. And then you're completely useless. And that's not healthy for your kids, either. To see parents like that, you know, just and upset and create, like, you will burn out and then it will come out in other ways, you know, so absolutely. It's just not healthy for a family unit to just be kind of, it'd be like, in a relationship, like just living and working and everything together and never having a break. Like you need that break to miss, you know, the other person and then come back and be, you know, completely full and giving. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? And that's the thing too, like, if you've had a lot of moms I've spoken to, they've been artistic their whole lives. Yeah. And even when they got married, one of my, one of my previous guests, Sammy Lange said to her husband, just before they got married, you know, this is what I do. I'm not gonna all of a sudden start cleaning the house. And the same thing happens when you become a mom. It's not like all of a sudden, you go, Well, I'm gonna forget all that thing. That thing that I loved my whole life. I'm just that part of me is gone. Now. Now I have to be on, you know, certainly for a portion of time, that might be the case. Because you know, early, early babies are like, the babies. Yeah, the first, you know, few months is incredibly demanding. So yeah, challenging to find even the time to sleep, let alone do something for yourself. But as time moves on, it's like that part of you is still there. It's just a matter of sort of getting back to it, I guess. Yeah. I think like, she was so I think, wow, because she was so emotionally mature at that age, like at that time to be able to recognize that because I didn't, I was like, well, here I go. Like, I'm into the next stage of my, my life. And like, I'm becoming a mother. And this is who I'm going to be now. Like, you can't Well, for me, it was a very confusing period where I just didn't know what I was doing a whole I was I felt like, kind of, yeah, I was out of control life was happening to me, not like I wasn't in control of it, kind of so now I've realized that actually, you can do whatever you want. You have full control of everything. And but yeah, like, wow, for her that she's just been able to do that right from the get go. And she made that a priority. It's taken me like, a long time to realize that and make it a priority for myself. Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, it happens, isn't it? And I guess, it depends how you've grown up what your, you know, your role modeling was like, from your parents about, you know, what was what value was placed on what I suppose? Yeah, we're also different, aren't we? Yeah. But I think it's so important to spend that time becoming conscious and aware of that, and like, figuring that out, and realizing how that impacts you. And yeah, recognizing your, your own individual, you know, upbringing and, and the person you become and then you're in full control of changing that and, you know, controlling your future moving forward. So take that and then consciously choose like what you want to do. Yeah, your future. Yeah. So you raise your kids right. Yeah, exactly. That's the thing, isn't it? Because they're watching like, you know, they're observing what's going on around them and yeah, even at such a young age, and like you said before, we you know, if you burnt out you know, you start to get impatient and you you know, your relationships suffer like the kids they see and feel all of it so, oh yeah, it's so important, isn't it? Yeah. So identities a big thing, be yourself and feed them Moms who code What about mum guilt? Is that something that sort of comes into it as well, that idea that moms shouldn't be doing something for themselves? They should be mums. Or? Well, I yeah, I thought about this. And I think we all suffer from Mum guilt, like, must be in US innately. But I would say I probably I probably suffer less than average, like, I definitely I am constantly. Yeah, looking for ways to you know, get a break, or that sort of thing. See my husband, he works interstate, every week, he travels around Australia. And so there's like three nights a week where I'm on my own. Luckily, I've got my parents, they've moved here from Canada, eight years ago, and they live like five minutes up the road from me. I don't know how I would do this. Yeah, without having my parents nearby. They've been such great support. And through all, like, the medical journey we've been on with our youngest and stuff, so. Yeah, so I'm always looking for things that I can, you know, a weekend away or like, a night away, or like a workshop to attend or? Yeah, where can I get go for like, a float or like, a massage or just for Yeah, bushwalk I can go and do or friends where I can catch up with like, ways that I can fill my cup. So I'm, yeah, I feel like I don't have enough of that stuff. I need to always that's a constant work is trying to make sure I'm taking a break. And when I get it, I like I'm out. I don't find home and check in or night or anything like that. Like I'm like, switched off. I'm enjoying it for as much as possible. Because yeah, I just know that when I'm back, you know? Um, yeah, it's just all about mom like 100% Yeah, so I don't tend to get to about a mum guilt. I guess you kind of like, you kind of have moments where you look at it. Well, for me, I look at it like big picture. And you know, the time flies with kids growing up and you think, yeah, I guess you kind of reflect and say, you know, did I do enough of that? Or did I do enough of this? Or, like, you know that I missed out on that or something like that. So I think that mom guilt kind of creeps in and yeah, but I think I don't know I'm I try to be pretty compassionate with myself and say, like, you're doing a bloody good job. And you know, like, cut yourself on Slack. You've got a lot on your plate. So um, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I feel for the moms like that's, that's why I'm doing the work. I'm doing feel for the moms too. But that's my art art workshops are a big part of that and getting the moms out of their house. My art workshops are minimum three hours, because I might you need three hours, don't need an hour and a half. Like, you know, you need three hours to walk out a home to connect with other moms, other women to really get into the art and relax and be you know, in the moment, being mindful and like, yeah, just filling your cup for a good three hours and then returning home, you know, and that's healthy for the carer who's on the other end to have that time with the kids too. And for the kids to have that time with the the other partner or carer you know, to? Yeah, to be to be taken care of by someone other than mum or, huh. I think that's something we forget to it's like they have relationships with other people. Yeah, they need to have the time to build on them as well. Like, yeah, I mean, maybe I'm saying that to justify it. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, they make time with other faithful. Yeah, my boys are really good with everybody else. They go to other people. They Yeah, they happily have, you know, they'll go for a sleepover or something with their cousins or, like, yeah, they're really good like that. And I think that's probably just how we've been raising them. Yeah, maybe. You're listening to the odd thing I'm gonna ask you a question. Yeah, that wasn't on the list. So I'll give you some time to think about it. If I just just as we've been talking, I just wondered what in your experience with your coaching what is like the biggest issue or the biggest? Yeah, I guess It's an issue that stops me from creating or holds them back from creating. Um, I would say, I think, initially, everyone thinks that it's time. Or it's energy. That they don't have enough time as a mom more time poor. Or we're tired, you know, we're exhausted. Surely I can't take on something else like, but that's not what arts about, like my creativity, I should say. Because when I say creativity, I'm talking like the mums I help can be anyone from you know, just like the moms you interview from singers and musicians, to writers to artists. So yeah, I think we think that we're kind of time poor, and we don't have time to take this on. But yeah, it's actually adding to you it's not like something that is meant to be more work, it's meant to be enjoyable and a break, and then it feels your carbon gives back to you to your mothering. So, um, yeah, I would say that's probably a big one. But that's what I kind of worked through them with their thoughts is that, you know, we use time kind of as like an excuse. But is it really time? Or is it actually something deeper than that? So we kind of work on that deeper level of what's really what what are you really thinking in your head? What's really, what's the fear there that's kind of holding you back from from doing this, you know, whether it's creating your art or it's sharing your art, you know? Yeah. Are you doing things like procrastinating? Or are you being a perfectionist about it like, so it's more that sort of? Yeah, thought work, then. Yeah, any of those kind of surface level excuses? Yeah. Do you find people feel? And I'm just saying this from the feedback I've had, when I've chatted to other mums? Does the some of them feel like what they're doing will be judged as being a bit of fluffing around and not that important? So it's like, what are you doing that for? sort of thing? Is that just coming into it a bit? I yeah, that definitely comes into it, I think. Yeah, that's just, yeah, you're always going to have I think people around you who have their own thoughts about art, and that's, you know, might come from society's value of art. But yeah, everyone's got their own thoughts and values. And so you just have to kind of think that's fine, that's your thoughts, but that they're not mine. And I'm not going to take that on, I'm not going to kind of let that affect me. But it is hard, because that can be someone like your partner, or it can be like a parent or something like that. So somebody who you really want for support, or you really think or your support team can actually be kind of not the people you should go to, to get to seek support from for this sort of thing. So yeah, I think again, just being conscious and knowing, like, yeah, being aware of what's kind of around you and being selective as to what you take on and what are your own values? And what are your own thoughts? And yeah, and running with those and not sort of letting? Letting? Yeah, other thoughts kind of influence? Yeah, yeah. And I guess then being sort of, like you said, the people that perhaps you shouldn't go to for this sort of stuff, like seeking out those people that are your tribe, I suppose. Yeah, he's not ready. But you know, what I made the paper that are on the same page that will support you and give you the confidence that you might be needing Exactly. So my girlfriend is definitely like someone I would go to, who supported me when I was with my first child, I would go to her for, you know, a bit of a boost or some feedback. But I have made a Facebook group for this because I've found that this is something that's kind of missing is like that community support of other like minded women. So we can, you know, in there, we can encourage each other or ask for feedback or, you know, just talk about different topics or struggles that we're kind of going through or even sharing just our motherhood challenges that are happening. So it's really niche. Nishi kind of like, what we're dealing with, is really specific that other people can't kind of relate to so there's, there's certain aspects that people do and that's great. Um, I'm glad that kind of helps. But yeah, it is it is quite specific. What we need need that community that network for so yeah, I've got a Facebook page called Creative village. So it's like, you know, your village, but creatively it takes a really? Exactly. Yeah. Well, that's great. Well, I'll put a link in the show notes for anybody that's, that's keen. And I'm sure there'll be a lot of people that are. And I'll certainly be checking it out. But yeah, when you're talking before about this, like, you know, it might be your partner or your, your parents or maybe parents in law that no, don't see the value I just want to reflect on there was an experience with a mum that I interviewed, I think last season, who's the parents in law were babysitting the dog? There was like, the hammer square, but they would, because she's the daughter in law, right? So she's not like number one. So the daughter was getting the child babysat by these grandparents, because she was going to work. Yeah, but then the grandparents didn't want to babysit the other child, because the mom was just making her art. Yeah, it was like, they didn't value in that at all. And that's like, ah, it just makes you just so cross, you know, that. I know, everybody's different. And I shouldn't judge people, but it's hard not to see, like, how devalued that that mum would feel. Yeah, you know, by that one person saying, Oh, well know what you're doing isn't worthy enough. It's not real work. Yeah. And that's just like demoralizing. So having people around you that can go? That That's a load of crap. support you? Yeah. So important. Really, that's really tough. Because it would that would have an impact on you. And you would probably question, you know, what is this a waste of time or something like that? You're like, you, you get all these thoughts coming to you about like, that are coming from that. And you know, so? Um, yeah, I think just being really strong on what you value and what's important to you what you need is so is so important. And then yeah, finding the right people around you that can kind of support you. Like, when I the last art exhibition, I entered, it was a still life show. I'm still like prize, I ended up painting. Like, I just paint around the house. So I just painted on my back. Entertaining table, like my dining table, outdoor dining table was beautiful as like, sunny, we yeah, we were really lucky with the weather. And the kids just want to get involved. And I've talked to other artists, moms who they've got like a studio in their home and that sort of thing. And they say the kids come in and out like all the time and that's so beautiful to for, for, you know, the kids to grow up in the studio and to be around that creativity and value that growing up like, Yeah, I think there is a bit of a balance there between, like having your own space to focus and stuff. Certain work requires that like this, for example, with the kids in the background, but like, yeah, if you can involve them and have them working beside you like some there's an artist that I follow. Um, I can't remember her name now. Um, she gets her she's quite famous in Australia, and she gets her daughter to work on her paintings, like, and they're in galleries and everything. And they're beautiful. And it's so no, I think more of that needs to kind of happen with Yeah, with with artists, moms that just it just adds that layer into like artists mom's work that for sure. Yeah. You know, I think that's, I think that's so cool. I would love to do that. At one point. If I can get my boys involved in my work. That would be amazing. I'm just trying to see if I've got it. I can't see where it is now. But I did. I'm not I like to paint just to fluff around because yeah, my main thing is singing and writing music and stuff. But I love I love fluffing around with brushes and stuff. It's just I just feel really nice when I'm flowing. So I did this, this like it's all abstract, mostly fuel Watercolor, I'm getting better at making flowers. But it's Yeah, practice my gosh, it's practice in that. Yeah, yeah, I have the patience for it. But I did this big abstract bits and bobs. And then I gave it to my six year old and said, and gave him my pastels and said, he goes, you finish this off, and I look at it. And it's like, I would never thought to do what he's done. Like, it's so kids look at their creativity. And it wasn't like he'd even I think I can't remember how he described it. But like it was his idea of whatever this thing was, he tried to represent it. So he's gone. I'm going to draw this thing. And he just tried to draw that to me. It just looks like amazing marks on the page. It just looks so cool. I'm like Digby, that looks that looks like a proper art now thank you for your I didn't touch I couldn't have done that. Because I'm a lot of my create my art stuff is like, I've got to get it to look the way I want it to. And because I can't do that because I don't have the skills. I just end up getting frustrated when I'm digressing. I wanted to talk a bit more about your own art that you create in your photography and such. Yeah, what sort of things influence your work? Well, I'd say, like, when I first started, I was, I would say I was more influenced by making art that people would buy. I think that's a big thing. Artists kind of deal with is like, making Yes, stuff to sell or just expressing themselves and working. And I would say like if I was in, if I had more, yeah. If I had more time, it's just kind of funny. But I'm like, because I do the coaching and I do my art making my art making is really like a I wouldn't even say part time like It's like quarter time because I've got you know, parenting and then my coaching. And so anyway, if I was like a full time artist, and I wanted to do that full time, like I would think that I would be in a studio for a long time. And I would be you know, just spitting out artwork that I wanted to express and how I was feeling and that sort of thing. But when I'm making for exhibitions, there's usually like a theme I'm working with, or Yeah, like, or in the beginning, I was thinking a lot about what would people want on their walls. So I was making things more about and I used to be really into because I grew up in Canada. And then I moved to Australia, I was really interested in landscapes and that kind of like the juxtaposition of the two. And yeah, that I just really love both, even though they're so different. So I did a lot of landscape stuff. But now I'd say the most recent show, I did the still life prize, it was all about motherhood and I'm really interested in starting to yeah, really, I obviously value that so much. It's such an important part. To me. It's really like the most important thing in my life that's happened to me is what I've gone through and becoming a mum. So I really want to express that more and just yeah, it's just not in society. It's just not spoken about enough. And it's there's not enough awareness about what what happens. So I think using art as a medium to express that is awesome. So that's probably what I'll be doing more of the next pieces I do. Yeah, will be more about motherhood and hopefully I can get to a place where I start to, you know, work through I get to express like my experience of my motherhood, like the trauma from my first birth and complications that I've gone through with my second son so yeah, we'll see how it goes. You know, like right now? Yeah, a lot of us feel really helpless. And you know how, as a mom at home with my kids, can I help like what's going on in the world, but really, that work is so important. Like, we wouldn't have, you know, a Putin out there right now if, you know, there was a different upbringing, or that's an incredible way of looking at it. So important, our work was really valuable, really important and, you know, doing that work of whatever you whatever way you parent, your parenting style, but mine's probably more like gentle parenting. So, yeah, all that work you put in as a mom with your kids is you're bringing the future, you know, generation of people into this world. And that's really, really important. evety Like maybe if Putin did a bit of art like right, maybe I bet he was stifled every now. He wasn't even allowed to get out. Or anything. She was like that you're not doing it? So this is Charlotte Conde who was one of my guests in season two. And she said as mothers were asked to raise human beings and also contribute to society, as if those two things were different. Yeah. It's like, yeah, yes. It's like, what we're actually doing is CRISPR is still messy. You have to know you have to contribute to society. It's like what we Yeah. Seriously, motherhood? Just just, yeah, there's just this. Yeah, this there's no clear idea about what it is or what it what it does or anything. And yeah, I think this is such a different perspective. Like before you become a mom on what it's going to be like and what to expect. And you know, and you just think, like, that's why my husband and I were in such a shock when we had our, our first because no one told us that that was gonna be a possibility or like, yeah, that we were gonna have a tough year or anything like that, like we thought, you know, we're gonna have this beautiful baby and then bring them home and we're just gonna cut along and it's gonna be wonderful. Yeah, no screaming and like sleepless night. Yeah. So yeah, that's it sounds very similar to my story. It took me seven years to have my second because the first one was just like, What the hell yeah. And just Yeah. And that's the thing. Like, I feel like people, they try to give you an idea of what it's gonna be like, yeah, based on their experience, but you're not even in that headspace to even understand what they mean. Like when they say you're not going to get sleep. You go, Oh, that's nice. Like, whatever. You don't actually realize that. That's what they mean. Yeah, totally. I remember reading a book. And it said about this particular type different types of babies like ancient babies, or grumpy babies or whatever. And I'm like, my baby's gonna be perfect. I don't even need to read this. Like it was just denial complete. It's hilarious. Yeah. And there's just this like, you know, idea from society that moms just stay home and they live such good life, because they're just at home and like, they just are watching soap operas all day and have their feet up. And it's so easy, and the kids are easy. And it's like, yeah, you have no idea. No idea. No idea. You happy to talk a bit more about your first birth with the trauma involve? Yeah, I'm a pretty open book. Basically, like, I had a similar experience. I mean, I'm not saying similar because I don't know what you're about to say. But with my second birth, yeah, first birth was first one. I got induced because I had really high blood pressure. Yeah. He come out in an hour and a half. And it was horrific because they didn't have time to do pain relief. And that was the thing like when you have your first everyone says, Oh, it'll take 12 to 14 hours. Yeah, blah, blah, blah. And even the doctor when he came in and administered the drug to and broke my waters. He said, I'll see. I'll see. And I'll see you in 12 to 14 hours. He was joking. And then when I was laying there, and I felt like I felt like I needed your poo. But basically, I felt like I needed to push. And I told them, I said, I need to push. And they said, they looked at me like I was an idiot. And I was like, I feel like there's a bowling ball coming out of my bum. Like it just, that's the only way I could describe it. And they race to get this doctor. And he come up. And he was like, surely not like, again, like I was an idiot. And did a check on me. It was the first day it was surprising. It was horrible. Yeah. So he didn't check any could feel here. And it was like, You're literally about to these babies coming out of you. And it was horrible. It was horrible. And then with my second I said straight up, I need an epidural. Because if he comes, this one comes really quick. I need to be prepared because obviously last one was too late. And because he he was very tiny, he was only four pound 14 When he was born. Because he'd they, I don't know how, but between I had shared care between my midwife at the clinic and then the actual doctor. So between the two of them, they'd somehow missed that his growth had sort of plateaued at about 34 weeks. They hadn't picked that up. So it wasn't too Yeah, nine days before he was due. He the doctor did the scan you guys, your baby stopped growing. And I was like, I didn't know I had this feeling. I didn't have this beautiful big round bump. I had like a lopsided weird bump. And basically all the amniotic fluid had gone. And he'd stopped growing because my placenta had the blood supply was not working properly. So all of a sudden, it's like to get this baby out. Yeah, I didn't do it that day. Thank goodness. It was like two days later. Yeah. And we just had the worst experience like right from the start. We got to the hospital. We had this horrible midwife who told us we were late. And it was like, we got we got told to be there at a certain time. We were like five minutes late, because we couldn't get in through the door of the hospital. And then just thing after thing after thing went wrong. He came, they did the epidural and the epidural was too. He done it too high. So my lungs were starting to stop working like Oh, my breathing is compromised. Then he broke the waters there was nothing there. What did they do? It was just my husband. I think he's still traumatized by watching happen. So they're nice. They tend to to me sideways to let the to move the the epidural stuff, somehow they tilted me sideways because I could feel one leg but not the other. And it was just thing after thing after thing. And eventually, when it came time to push like not a not even push the contraction started. And his his heart rate was going down but it wasn't coming back up. So they were like, well, it's okay that it goes down. But it needs to come back up like a real set shows he's in in stress. They basically they said to me, we've got to get this baby out. And I was like, right and the like, we've got to go have a cesarean so I went to do that. And I'm thinking, Oh, this would be great. We'll get this over with but then when they were doing it, I could, I couldn't feel like I thought I'd be numb, like completely numb. And I wouldn't even know what they were doing down there. But I could feel stuff. So then I started to get all panicky because I couldn't. And I was it was horrible. My midwife when stood over by the wall, and just basically abandoned us. And thank God there was this beautiful theater nurse who came over and she was like stroking my head like it's okay, this is what's happening. This is what's happening next, whatever, she just took charge. And then eventually he come out and you know, he was he's fine. He just was very small. He just didn't have any fat on him. So his lungs were developed. Like everything was fine. Yeah. And then and then the OH MY GOD on the way back to the, to the room. She asked what we're going to name him. And his name is Digby. And she goes, Ah, I know a friend with a dog called Digby. And I was like oh my gosh, really doing this to me after everything's done to me. Now you're doing this. And then sorry, I'm really going on about it now. Obviously need to work through this today. We got back to the room and they decided he needed to be in this like the box thing because he couldn't keep his temperature up for himself. And then they said the specialist pediatric doctor come over and she asked me if I'd been drinking and smoking when I when I was pregnant and I was just like, I just burst into tears. I was like, I wouldn't do that. To my child, like, and she goes, I'm sorry, we have to ask because he's so small. And I said, Well, I overheard the theater people say my placenta was gray and grainy. And she goes, Oh, that explains it then, but then didn't tell me what that meant. Like, no one was telling me what was going on. And then the next thing was, I didn't move all night, because basically, I think I was in shock. And I couldn't move. My body was just in that same position. I came back from theater, and they sat me up for something. And they discovered that the epidural thing was still in my bag. And I was like, seriously, what else could you guys tell like going to end? It was just one thing after another, and I was like, I have to get out of here. And in the end, he the babies did. We stayed there for like two weeks, and I ended up going home and just coming to visit him, like through the day and then go home at night because I just couldn't bear to be there. It was like, well, you must have hated going back in there. Like you just would want to take him out of there. It was the as quick as possible that you can get him home and get out of that place was horrible. And I felt and then I felt really guilty for leaving him there every night saying goodbye and then rushing home trying to get as much sleep as I could pumping in the middle of the night because they messaged me when he was when they were feeding him. So then I was like, right, I better pump now. It was just like, it was hell. But anyway, you had a you had another child to take care of as well. He was he was good though. Because he was he was seven. So he basically had to learn how to make his school lunch. He had to learn how to do so many things like that, like was like Sorry, Alex, we can't do this. You have to do it. Like grow up so quickly pull little bugger. But yeah, so anyway, I've just I've just had an awful horrendous I have like, I had similar things kind of happened in there. But yeah, some of the stuff that happened to you just and that that was it like that, what my OB said to me, and my first birth was, it was really, you were really unlucky, like everything that kept happening to you. And I was like, yeah, it just kept happening to me. And, and he said, like, if it could have gone, you know, if you got to one thing like say an induction, like, it could have gone good or bad, it went bad. Then you went to the next thing could have gone good or bad. It went bad. Like everything just failed the whole way through. And I was just, he was like, you're just really unlucky. And I was like, was like, my husband's really like, would this have happened if we were in, you know, with a different team or in a different environment? Or whatever, you know? Yeah. And you just don't know, I think just this stuff happens, you know, in life. And I think the best thing you can do is try to work through it. Like the more you talk about it and just really figure it out. Because I did that after mine. I was like, I literally called it a puzzle. Like I was trying to piece together what the heck had just happened to me and figure out everything that went on because I actually was in so much pain, I lost my vision. So I have like, yeah, so I just, I think like for months afterwards, I just told people in front of my husband that like, I got to a certain point. And then I just close my eyes and I just bared through it. And I just could hear everything but I couldn't see. And he was like, he ended up telling me like two months later, he's like, your eyes were open, like the whole time. And I was like, oh my god, like I've lost like my vision, like recollection of it, or my body must have just shut that part down or something just to try and survive the pain I was in. But yeah, I think the best thing you can do is just like, you gotta debrief and like talk through it and and then just try and grow from it and figure out like, how did ya how did it kind of make you stronger? Or what did you learn from that? You know, like for me, like I everything I've gone through with my kids. Before I was really probably I didn't trust my instincts too much. I didn't know what to do. I relied heavily on other people around me for advice, you know. And now I feel like I am my son's like my little son's, like best advocate. I know more about him than any doctor. I pretty much tell them what he needs. I don't do anything they advise me to do unless like I feel like it's necessary like so I feel like I'm really confident on now. To who I used to be because yeah, like in the beginning, you know, you got this newborn and you're like, oh, like when do I feed it? What do I do like a rocket? Do I pad it? Like how do I you know, this like what do I what do I give him like? So yeah, now I feel I feel more like I can I can listen to my my instincts more and trust them. So but yeah, my worth was um My waters partially broke in the night on like a Sunday. And then we called the hospital they said to come in. And the nurse that was on she ended up checking if they had broken and because I just had like wet shorts in bed, but then that was it. No nothing else. And I was like 41, and one or something like I was oh, whatever way overdue and I had a big baby like he ended up being was he was like, close to four kilos. That's about eight pounds, eight ounces. And I'm like five foot four, like, I'm not a big person. Anyway, and um, and when she went to check, she ended up scraping or cutting me and I had I had bleeding and I had this like, beautiful pregnancy before this. And then this was like, the start of the horror that I like went through was she had done that. And my husband is not good with blood and hospitals. And he was just like, why? Like was that meant to happen? Like, what's going on? Like, this is like, he was really concerned already. Yeah. And then they basically said, like, you have to go home. Nothing's happening. We I can't how are you? And she was like, I can't tell because now I've like those, those blood and I can't, I can't. And I was like, well, thanks for that. You've just started this off on a great note. Like, everything was fine. I was healthy and everything. And then. And then so we ended up going home. And then like, I think I came in the next day to see my obstetrician or something. And he sent me over to the hospital to get monitored. And I ended up just standing in the waiting room and like no one can help me no one was seeing me I was in pain. I had really bad back labor and my birth. And and then yeah, they couldn't even give me a hot water bottle because they're all used in the rooms and stuff. And I was just really uncomfortable. And I said, I called the the OB and said I don't want to be here anymore. Like can I just go home? This is I'm not getting any treatment here anything. And so he said, Yeah, you can go. And then they ended up calling me and saying oh, your GBS positive. So we like legally in New South Wales, we have to induce you within 24 hours of your water breaking and like, we think they've partially broken and you need to get in here in the next hour. And we need to induce you. And I was like, so now you want me they're like, send me away, like, twice now. So then I went in and then and then they induced me but mine took a long time. And my OB said it was like night, I think it was nine o'clock when they induced me. So he said same thing. Like I'll see you in the morning for a birth. But I said do I do What do I do? Like do I do an epidural? Like I really don't know what to do. And again, I was very much like looking for other people's advice, like not listening to my body or anything like that, and just going by the professionals and trusting that they have done this a million times. And so anyway, he said, Well, I would take an epidural and get some sleep because you're you're going to need some rest. So I took the epidural and then I think yeah, anyway, in the morning, I started like having contractions and start started going into labor and I think that was at like 6am and Oh, and in the night my epidural had worn off or something like that. And so I said to them, like that was so so painful like because it takes them a while to come in and top it off or whatever so I said can you just um when it when it started in the morning I was like can you just make sure like it doesn't go low again like that because that was I was in so much pain there and I'm like in the middle of the night. So they talked it up, like really high or something and then I went into it I was pushing and then he was stuck. He was in the wrong position. He was like, sideways kind of and anyway and then I ended up being in like I would push and then when I rest I just endure like back labor I turn to my side and just be like it it got to the point I just felt like someone had broken my back like it was I was in so much pain. And I couldn't and I just kept saying to them I need a top off of this epidural like I can feel like I'm in so much pain. And they were really perplexed by it and thought you know, you shouldn't be in any pain with the epidural and anyway and Then he got right to the end, like they could see his hair and everything. And then they said, he should be further along by now, you know, you've been pushing for a while, and he hasn't been able to get any further out. And so they said, they said, like, we're gonna do an emergency Caesar. I said, Yeah, it's fine. Just like get him out. I'm just in so much pain right now. And then they went into the operating room, and the OB said, I just want to try a vacuum because he's right there. And I think I could if I twist them a little bit, I think I could pull them out. And anyway, the midwife the head midwife was arguing, saying, Don't do that. Like, that's not going to work. And so anyway, he did it and pop like this. It came off and he got this huge hematoma on his head. No, yeah, poor little guy. And then. And then they said, We're going to do a Cesar and then same thing they went to do like test if I was numb, and I was like, I can feel everything. Like I can feel all of that. Yeah. And they were like, Oh, my gosh, I think your epidurals fallen out, like I think it failed. Oh, not explain why I was in so much pain. And then, um, and then they, they said, We're gonna have to give you a general we're gonna have to knock you out. So I said, Whatever, I don't care. Just knock me out. By this point. My husband was so traumatized and like, so concerned. And so they sent him out by himself, sat him in a room all by himself. And then they knocked me out and they pulled out my son, and he went limp in blue. And they had to resuscitate him and CPR and everything, because he had the trauma from the, from the vacuum. And then he had a bit of a general so he wasn't in a good way. So he was in the NICU for five, five days, I think, or maybe a week, we were in the hospital together. But luckily, I could stay on the ward because I was in the public. And I was a private patient. So I was paying. So yeah, they kept me they kept me on the ward and let me feed him and all that stuff in the hospital. But yeah, it was just awful was horrible. But that whole week in the hospital, I like just wanted to kind of, yeah, figure everything out and get out of there. And like, yeah, it's just not nice, ya know, Banner, kind of, and no one else, like around me had anything like that. So I was just like, Why me like, yeah, for a long time, I think we went through that, like, you know, the whole Why did this happen to us kind of thing. But then a year later, I think I kept going, I kept going. I kept going, like, when I went back to school, I kept coming on school break, and I was having like a real struggle. And I didn't know why I was kind of having these outbursts and lashes out to my husband when it was a time when I should be so relaxed and feel so good. And I was like, actually not coping in the in the break time when I was like, I want to do all this stuff, but I can't do anything. And I'm really struggling and and then I went and saw my GP and they ended up diagnosing me with PTSD, like a year later, when I finally could kind of deal with it. So, yeah, yeah, it's that PTSD. That's something they diagnosed me with too. And it's interesting that I don't think I realized at the time, how, but how bad had been for me like, I don't think I just thought I similar thing. I've been really unlucky stuff happens. No one else around me had the same thing. And it wasn't till I was, I think I was on Facebook or Instagram, Amanda and I were talking about birth trauma and like recognizing an actual, it's an actual thing. birth trauma is a thing and they were talking about there needs to be more said about it and more support. And I was like, I think that's me. I think they have been trained like it's just, there's no, there's no, I don't know, when you're in the hospital. It's basically once you've had that baby. All the support goes to the baby like everything's about a baby and it's like, hang on a sec. I've just literally had my guts ripped open. Yeah. With little very little preparation, and under really, you know, stressful circumstances. And then I'm expected to look after this child like it just seems there's no care for the mothers that have been there. Yeah, and yeah, it took me a long time to realize that I was one of those people and then done a lot of work with my therapy. His two sort of things. And yeah, it's well done. Yeah, that's so important. I think you've, you've got to go through it and everything or else. Yeah, you just kind of hold on to it. And then, you know, you don't you kind of fall apart later in life, so yeah, yeah. Oh, so healthy to keep all that in. And that's a really horrible thing to keep in, you know, that's huge. That's not just like, you know, something minor. That's happened that's really big. And I think, yeah, everyone just thinks going into having a baby is, you know, this natural thing that we are all made to be able to do and stuff and actually, you know, sometimes it's, it's major surgery in someone's life, like, yeah, that's not a normal thing. Yeah, cuz you don't sort of plan like, you know, you and I are having a C sections. It's like, you can't drive for a certain amount of time after Yeah, yeah. So you don't think that that's going to happen to you don't sort of plan beforehand, right? Who's going to take me around and whatever, because you just don't think that that's going to happen? That in itself is like really limiting? Because then you have to ask people are really vulnerable that I can't even go down the shops, I've got to ask someone to do it. For me, it took me a long time was learning how to ask for help. Because, you know, and I still work on that and stuff. But yeah, like that. That's a huge part of motherhood is you literally can't do it yourself. So you have to learn that skill of asking for help. And you've gone from being this independent adult who doesn't really require anybody else's help, you know, to suddenly you have to be really vulnerable. Put yourself out there and ask for it. Yeah, to like to be able to do what you do. Yeah, it that's a big one, I think for a lot of bumps. was for me, yeah, yeah. Yeah, me too. Oh, gosh. Oh, thanks for sharing for sharing that. Yeah, no problem. Your story. It's yeah. It's beneficial to talk about things. I think it's like, yeah, definitely. Yeah. And just, the more we kind of communicate and like put stuff out there, the more people become aware, you know, and, and it's not or, and people can relate and be like, Oh, I'm not like the odd one out, huh. Like what happened to you actually, is very similar to you know, a lot of it has similarities to what happened to me and I went into my birth being like, like, I pretty sure my husband and I toured the hospital and we went through the NICU. And we were like, I looked at him and I was like, we won't be in here. We were in there for a week. Like, we weren't definitely in there. So but yeah, and when we were in there, like we our son was nicknamed the basketball player because he was so huge. He was long and big. And there was all these preemie babies. And that's what you think when you think of the NICU is like, preemie babies and stuff in there, you know, but it can be all sorts of reasons why you end up in there. So yeah, that's really true, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I feel like you need to shake myself down. That's it exactly. Yeah, all sorts of things. So like, I've just recently done a yeah, I've done so much like different stuff and kind of trying to work on myself and self care to take care take care of ourselves. And yeah, I recently did like a retreat, a women's retreat down the south coast here. And yeah, we did all sorts of stuff like that, like after you kind of tell your story or whatever you do, like an experience, like a cacao ceremony, or like shamanic breathwork and stuff. And then afterwards, it's kind of like, okay, like, we've gone through all that, shake it all out of your out of your body. And it's like, all that stuff is like really important. It really helps. So just lighten the load, like every time you kind of talk about it, and that sort of thing. It just gets a little bit lighter. So yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. Like I mean, I used to be, you know, talking about all this stuff and be in tears talking about it, like I could barely even talk about it, right? It's so painful and you feel such a victim, whereas now I'm like, this is something that's happened, but I've worked through it, I've moved through it, and this is where I'm at now and like I would never be where I am if I hadn't gone through all that, like, you know, trying to see it as like, somewhat of a blessing that it's like improved your life, you know, instead of Yeah, this horrible thing. Yeah, that's it, isn't it trying to see the positives and, and learn, I guess, what your lesson was, like what you had to what you had to learn through experience. And that's like, you know, it's like, COVID we've all gone through that. And, like, what, you know, there's probably some people who are still in, uh, in kind of like a victim state saying, you know, that was a horrible time in my life. And like, always, you know, that's really affected me or there's people who are like, I learned so much from that experience. Like, I now know what's really important to me, like, I know what I want to do actually changed my whole career. Like I did this. I did that, like, going through it, you know, and, and it's not just COVID that happened, like people had lots of horrible things happen because of COVID in there, you know, but they've become more resilient from it. So I think that's really important. Really important to do. Yeah, that's, that's a tree. Have you got anything coming up that you want to share? You've talked about your, yeah, for boats. By the time this episode comes out, that would have happened. But I'm definitely going to share that whatever I got coming up soon. I'll be having like it for people who are local, I'll be having. I want to try and make the monthly, but I've just collaborated with a gin bar in town to hold my art workshops at called juniper. So I'm going to be Yeah, I'll have an art workshop there next month in April. I've got my online community. This is kind of like my goal for this year, that I'm doing my art workshops to help moms get out of out of the home and women in general. And then yeah, the online community to connect and have that support and then the coaching. So my coaching is it's like ongoing, anybody can can sign up, but it's for a six month period. So anything less than that, just, you know, that's not enough time to sort of make some change and see some real results. So yeah, I commit to one hour every week for six months. And art wise. I've got I've applied for an exhibition actually in New York with my recent paintings. So it's an artist's mother exhibition. But yeah, I really keep my eye out for those sorts of artists mother kind of opportunities flying around, there's, there's a couple coming up. So I might apply for a couple others. But there's also my son's chromosome disorder. There is an an art competition for like rare disease art. So I think I really want to make something for that this year. That's in the middle of the year. I think it's like August or something, or maybe, might actually July. Um, but yeah, I'm hoping that's going to be an opportunity for me to sort of delve into that side of expression and trying to represent visually like my experience of, you know, having a son with a rare disease and raising a child with disabilities. Yeah, and I don't know what I'm going to create, but we'll see how that goes. But I do really want to do that. Because yeah, it's something really personal to me, huh? Yeah, not good on Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you so much for coming on, Andrew. It's just been a lovely chat today. And thank you for sharing so honestly, yeah. Cool. Thank you for having me and chatting with me, with all your honesty as well. Wonderful. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast already. In sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.