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3 Elena Zima Russian painter 3 Article # 30 June 2023 My name is Elena Zima. I'm an artist. I live in Moscow. My mother dreamed that I would learn to draw. So through me she tried to realize what she herself was not available in childhood. She sent me to an art studio at the age of 6. I was good at it. Perhaps painting is the only thing that I was good at as a child and brought only positive emotions. As a teenager, I studied with the best artists. But at the same time, it was considered impossible to "become an artist" in the family and in society. This is not a profession, but condemning yourself to a poor life. So I went to study and work in a completely different direction. I graduated from the Faculty of History and Philology and went to work in the media. But wherever I was, I was always drawing. People noticed this and often asked to draw something for them. Orders began to appear, then I realized that I could earn more by painting than by working in a magazine. As a result, I quit and began to look for my own style in painting and develop as an artist. I paint in the classical realism and in the style of magical realism. I use magical realism to show the secret life of nature and objects. Every painting has an additional artistic layer: different reality, other life of objects and their history. Just like in childhood, looking at clouds, we saw different shapes. The same way the shadows in the foliage of the trees could fold into a shape of a person. The purpose of my art is not just to depict the outer shell of things but to reveal the inner world and personal history of objects. I have not big family: myself, my husband, our ten-year-old daughter Anna and a cat. My family is my main characters in my paintings and they often serve as models for my future artworks. They help me and inspire me. Well, except for those moments when they complain that I like painting more than them. My workday at the moment looks like this: I get up at 6:30 in the morning, see my daughter off to school, spend about an hour on myself (breakfast, checking email and social media), then I go up to my studio (I'm lucky - my studio is on the third floor of my house) and work on a painting until about 2 pm. I have lunch. If it;s not a busy day, I might go out for a walk. Then my students come into the studio and I give lessons. In the evening I help my daughter with her homework; we talk, do something about house, and have dinner as a family. Of course, this is an example of a perfect schedule where everything goes according to plan. But quite often the schedule changes: we have to take a painting to an exhibition or go to a colleague's exhibition opening in the evening, the child or I may fall ill and then the whole routine changes. To be honest, I have a hard time dealing with the sudden change in schedule. If I don't get to work on a painting in a day, I get very anxious. I'm just learning to let myself rest from the daily grind. And of course it wasn't always like this. I was able to work fully only when Anna went to kindergarten. Now my daughter is big enough to go to exhibitions with me. Of course, she does not always have the patience to endure a long event, but at least she is very interested in what her mother does. My husband helps me build an optimal daily routine - he often picks up my daughter from school, helps me prepare lunch or dinner, and I have extra time to work or rest. "I believe that my art will teach my daughter humanism, a humanistic view of the world. It will teach her to respect her vocation and her interests, regardless of finances or society's opinion. It is important to be yourself and to love yourself." I have many artist friends who also have to combine art and family. Some of them had to stop their creative work for a long time and work at another job to raise a child. But then they came back to art anyway. It helped me to stop being afraid that if I interrupted my artistic work for a while, I wouldnt be able to go back. I realized that sometimes artists (both men and women) can pause to solve their problems and then paint again and be fully in the art profession. Being a mum The birth of my daughter played a huge role in my development as an artist. If before the birth of Anna painting was more of a hobby for me (I did not participate in exhibitions, I painted mostly only to order), then after the birth of daughter, I realized that I need to find my own style of painting, to formulate what I want to convey to the viewer through my art. I must take part in exhibitions. I need to evolve. To become better and cooler, to make my daughter proud of her mother. While my daughter was baby and couldn't get along without me, I felt terrible because I really wanted to get myself back as a person as soon as possible, to stop being an "app"; to serving the child and to get back to being creative as soon as possible. I was in a big hurry and felt guilty that I was a bad mother and could not fully immerse myself in my child's life. When Anna was about two years old, we had a babysitter come over three times a week for three hours at a time. Those nine hours a week became my salvation. I was slowly getting myself back on track. I realized that I would only be a good mom if I had the opportunity to do what I loved. I learned how to leave for a few hours without “mum guilt”, to completely immerse myself in my world for that time, and then return to my child energized and ready to spend full and sincere time with my daughter. Probably the hardest situation was when my husband and I had to fly out to another country for a week for an exhibition, and left my daughter with her grandmother. She was too small to take with us. But my priority at the time was to develop my career as an artist. I don’t regret that I didn’t give up this trip, because then a year later there was a pandemic, problems with flights, obtaining visas, etc. And if I hadn’t taken advantage of this opportunity then, I still wouldn’t have had the experience of a foreign exhibition. What about Anna - she had a wonderful time with her beloved grandmother. There were no tears or heartache. She knows that her mum goes to exhibitions, it’s her job. And she always proudly tells her friends about me. I feel much more “mum guilt” when I do chores (washing dishes, cooking, cleaning) instead of spending time with my daughter. It really is a waste of time - no fun for me and no attention for the child! Fortunately, she;s old enough now that we can, for example, cook something delicious together. When a baby is first born, the first year (and more) a woman is completely devoted to her baby. Breastfeeding, caring for the baby, walking, sleeping - all this fills a woman's life completely. It is really hard to find time for yourself. And it's hard to believe that there will ever be time for yourself. You don't feel like a separate person, but like an infant's attendant. It was a really difficult period for me. I was used to a multi-faceted life - painting, equestrian, work, meeting with friends. All that had to be forgotten for a while. And then to return slowly back into my life. To choose what is most important and what to wait for, or what to give up. Of course, with the baby, life will never be the same again. Now there was the most important thing in it - a new life, for which you are responsible. But my life has not become more boring or monotonous. Now, 10 years later, I can definitely say that with the birth of a child, I have more things in my life, I just learned how to combine them all. And I also realized that only by my own example I can show my daughter what it means to live a full life. Do I want Anna, when she grows up, to devote her life to housekeeping? Absolutely not. I want my daughter to live an interesting and fulfilling life. And only from me she can learn how multifaceted a woman's life is. Not from my stories, but from the way I live. Because children are educated not by words, but by what happens before their eyes. "While my daughter was baby and couldn't get along without me, I felt terrible because I really wanted to get myself back as a person as soon as possible, to stop serving the child and to get back to being creative as soon as possible. I was in a big hurry and felt guilty that I was a bad mother and could not fully immerse myself in my child's life. " To be an artist is not to have a steady income. Of course, this is very damaging to one;s ego. When there are a lot of successful, well earning peers around, and your sales are down, or your online account is closed because of the political situation, you feel worthless, as if you've achieved nothing in life. Every time you fall down, you have to get back up and move on. But I believe that my art will teach my daughter humanism, a humanistic view of the world. It will teach her to respect her vocation and her interests, regardless of finances or society's opinion. It is important to be yourself and to love yourself. My mother's fate and her actions greatly influenced my character and attitudes. In my childhood in Russia it was not customary to divorce, it was considered shameful. But a man could simply leave a woman with children and not help them. But for a woman to file for divorce herself - that was rare. So my mother divorced twice, ecause she did not agree to tolerate bad treatment of herself. She was always very different from ordinary people. She was able to build a brilliant career as a lawyer on her own and she is still working today. Everyone admires her now, but few people shared her views then. She is strong and independent. Apparently that;s why it's important for me to be financially independent, too. It;s true that with the profession of an artist, this is hard to achieve in my country. Now I started two new series of artworks. The first is portraits painted on uncoated canvas. The lack of a background allows focusing as much attention as possible on the subject of the image. The hero of painting is captured in the process of working or interacting with the world around him. It is important to catch the character, or rather, one important detail through which the whole image is revealed. And the second is about the inner world of man. This inner world is not constant. It changes depending on our moods and the moods of the people around us. A person;s inner space can be very different from the outer space. This resonance of the internal feeling and the external environment is the main theme of the new series of paintings, in which silhouettes of people are filled by the second background, reflecting the general mood. Contact Elena My Instagram accounts: @elena_zima_artist – about art and life @elena_zima_art – only art BACK

Rachel Gresswell New Zealand expat illustrator S1 Ep16 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Today I am joined by the delightful Rachel Gresswell. Rachel is a visual artist based in Melbourne VIC, and a mum of 2. After initially training in painting in New Zealand, Rachel transitioned to drawing, and drawing for animation - creating moving image works out of drawings, or a series of drawings. She was particularly taken by the tequnique developed by William Kentridge. In this episode we deconstruct the concept of mum guilt and what it means to Rachel, how she uses her art practice to record the day to day moments of her children’s’ childhood how she find wonder and inspiration in the everyday mundane events of our lives and the shift that took place in her mindset in relation to how her art and her work and home life actually could co-exist, and even enhance each other. **This episode contains discussion around post natal anxiety** Rachels website and Instagram - http://www.rachelgresswell.com/ - https://www.instagram.com/rachelgresswell/ Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music used with permission - Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in Early Childhood Education. Welcome to the podcast. Today I'm joined by the delight from Rachel Cresswell. Rachel is a visual artist from Melbourne, Victoria, and a mom of two. After initially training in painting in New Zealand, right to transition to drawing and drawing for animation, creating Moving Image works out of drawings or a series of drawings. She was particularly taken by the technique developed by William Kentridge. In this episode, we deconstruct the concept of mom guilt, and what it means to Rachel, how she uses her art practice to record the day to day moments of her children's childhood, how she finds the wonder and inspiration in the everyday mundane events of our lives. And the shift that took place in her mindset in relation to how her art and her work, and home life could actually coexist, and even enhance each other. This episode contains discussion around postnatal anxiety My guest today is Rachel Cresswell. Thank you so much for coming on. Rachel, it's lovely to welcome you to the podcast. Thank you, Alison. It's my pleasure. Fantastic. So for those who are not familiar with you and your work, could you give us a little bit of a rundown on what kind of art you create? What kind of mediums you work with that kind of thing? Yeah, sure. So I'm a visual artist, and I initially trained in painting. But really, over the last few years have worked mainly in drawing, and a lot of drawing for animation, as well. Yeah, so creating Moving Image works out of drawing those areas of drawings, and just starting to dabble back into painting now as well. So that's, I guess, an overview of my work. Yeah. How did you initially get into to drawing in the painting, I did a Bachelor of Fine Arts in my late teens and early 20s. And in New Zealand. I did that straight after. After high school, I had some really great teachers all through high school, and they sort of encouraged me to apply. And I was accepted. And yeah, I absolutely loved my undergrad years. Four years of just yeah, having a great time. And yeah, I've maintained a practice since that period. Which, yes, it's quite a long time ago now, I guess. But I've just this year started my MFA. So my Master of Fine Arts at the Victorian College of the Arts here in Melbourne. So it's been a long sort of hiatus between study, but just really thrilled to be back in that environment again, and yeah, hoping to see, you know, what comes out of it and what the next stage looks like, I guess. Yeah, sure. So as a kid growing up, we always sort of an arty person. You're always into touring and things like that. Yeah, definitely. Yep. I loved. Yeah. All of that stuff. I love sewing, as well. You know, working with textiles, any kind of craft thing. My mom is really creative. So she always still, you know, we'll always have loads of projects on the go. So was definitely, yeah, all around me. And certainly encouraged. And, yeah, definitely, from early, early primary school years through through high school. All sorts of all sorts of different projects, I guess. Yeah. Oh, that's really good. I, when you said about your animation, I was just completely taken by your animation I saw on your Instagram account. I was just, ah, I was just blown away. My son. He's, he likes to draw and create things. And I said, Alex, come and look at this. And he was like, Oh, wow, that is so cool. Yeah. Can you explain just a little bit about that, like, I could explain it but I'm, I don't speak the same language. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. I'm, there are just so many possibilities with animation, moving image and and drawing and, you know, there's so many tools now that are also available. You know, with iPads and stop motion animation software, and, you know, Apple pencils and things like that. So the, I guess the possibilities are kind of endless, but my sort of technique is very old school. So that's literally, you know, drawing a frame, rubbing it out redrawing the next one and sort of photographing them all in between. And then they get laid out on a on a timeline and editing software. And you notice a shift between the small shifts between the drawings that create this sense of motion. And that's a technique. Really, that came to the fore, I guess, through William Kentridge, who is a South African artist. And he's made, you know, huge numbers of films, dealing with, you know, situations of apartheid in South Africa and all sorts of, I guess, geopolitical themes, and he's exhibited widely through, you know, in Australia a lot. So, I've been lucky enough to see a lot of his work in the flesh. So is that yeah. Are you into that style? Initially, when you discovered his work? Or how did you sort of get into salutely? Yeah, yeah. So I had a couple of lectures at whitecliff went when I was in work with college and Auckland, when I was doing my undergrad who, you know, shared his work and a lot. You know, we've talked a lot about it. And yeah, it really piqued my interest in I was just was captivated. really captivated by the magic of it. Yeah, yeah. I just love it. It's like, the the images are over. I think it's easy to steal five more recently on Instagram, a different technique, which has been super fun to discover. So that's, yeah, they're just using an Apple Pencil in procreate, which is just a little program that I got on the iPad. So they're fantastic. So they're just literally drawing over that that still image and that just seems that my boys playing? Yeah, I guess I'm gonna get the things that we've been up to and locked down. Yeah, just slower. And that's really funny. Actually, I've been finding that making those little animations are kind of almost like triggers for memory, I guess. So when I look back at those I can remember in quite in quite a lot of detail. Like being with the boys in that situation, whether it was you know, jumping in the puddle or playing in the backyard with a leather that type of thing. So, yeah, I have a terrible memory. But I find when I've invested the time to create, you know, these these drawings, which, yeah, they do actually take a bit of time work. But I find like, they really cement that event into my memory, which I'm super glad because you know what it's like with little kids like moments are so fleeting and anything that can help you to remember these day to day experiences as gold. Yeah, it really helps you to hold on to those. Those they seem like maybe, like you said, like, day to day experiences, but they are so special, because that's all those little experiences going to create, you know, their child. Yeah, it's an incredible way to record them growing up really. I mean, I'd be pretty psyched if I looked back and my mom was doing that sort of stuff for me. It's pretty special for before you had your children, like you just mentioned how the children are, they come out in your work. Can you talk about where your inspiration has sort of come from and I'm, I've always been really interested in the the idea of the every day so I guess the things that take up our day that necessarily special or memorable but that is They they take our time Our time has invested in doing these things every day. And I guess from after having kids, a lot of that does become very domestic just because you're in the house or around the house so much with them, and you're doing so much for them. So I guess it's me being interested in the everyday that's sort of channeled my attention that way. But I guess before having kids. Yeah, I was interested in things around work and around memory and kind of family and those sorts of things. It's almost hard to remember, in some ways, because I guess having kids is such an all consuming kind of thing. And it's such has such a profound effect on your life. Yes, it's almost hard to remember. Before that. What I would say at the moment is my MFA my, is a research program. So the theme of my research, or what I'm looking at investigating is more around representations of faith in contemporary visual arts practice and Australia at the moment, and I guess, looking at how that shifted in recent history, in line with Australia becoming a more secular nation. So I guess there's those two points that have influenced my work both before kids and now it's, it's, it's around questions of faith, and it's also around the idea of the everyday, and certainly how those things are connected, and how they influence and speak to each other. So that's words that you but yeah, quite well. Yeah, cuz your example, one of your work, so I was looking at it from above, it's at a desk, so the person might be moving the mouse or moving the pen. And it's like, it just makes you stop and think about, like you said, it's, you know, a lot of people might document like a birthday party or, you know, something a big event like, yeah, yeah. That you do, over and over and over and over again. You know, it just that when I saw that I just made me stop and think, oh, wow, like, that's an incredible thing to me, because you would have had to put so much focus into that to draw that many times. And, you know, I just found that yeah, incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that was a work. That was literally about work. And that was about, I guess, when you know, when you're growing up, and you think of being an artist or something like that, you think, yeah, you know, I'll be an artist, that'll be my job. But it's like, no, the reality is, I'm going to have to have a job, like a job job to support the arts practice. So I guess in that particular work that you're referring to, it's, yeah, it was me grappling with, I guess these two parts of my identity, or not even identity but the things that I do and I'm looking at one through, I think I said in the statement looking at one through the lens of the other, I've always seen them as two quite distinct camps, and in some ways, but this was an attempt to kind of reconcile that for myself, I guess. Yeah. So let's jump on in and chat about your children. So you've got a couple of boys. Yeah, two boys. They six, four. So currently at home with us with with lockdowns? Yeah. But now they're good. Most kids probably they're just big energy. People. Lots of lots of fun. Lots of nice, yeah, lots of everything. Before we had kids, I was working full time. And in some ways, I've found that more of a challenge to have an app practice With full time work in some ways, there's something about the energy that you expend, or that I found I needed to have in my job was just kind of greater than them what it is to be with kids all day. And in some ways, yes, kiss. Yeah. So so there's that I found it hard to come home after a day of work, I guess and, and sort of reset, and do a second shift with that, which I did do. But I found that I did find it really challenging. And then, when I was pregnant, I naively thought that, yeah, I'm gonna not work I'm gonna have all this time and it's gonna be amazing. And the baby's just gonna, you know, sleep quietly, and it's quite famous last was totally different, didn't happen. But in some ways, I you know, even with little babies still had tiny pockets of time through the day when Remi eldest son was born, I sent myself a little challenge of, of doing these contour drawings of his first 100 days of life. And they were just tiny, like little a five drawings and I've got this really clear memory of, you know, sitting beside the bassinet and he had quite a routine 25 minute sleep cycle that the first sleep cycle so I remember like at 20 minutes, I'd start rocking the bassinet trying to get them across that get to the next sleep cycle then I used to do these little contour drawings while I was doing that and then as they've gotten older I I only work three days a week now so yeah, I guess times just shift it around a bit but certainly on the days when I'm at home with the boys Oh, they definitely won't have more energy for that for that night shift on that yeah yeah, it's just everything's different at the moment because of COVID and lock downs. Yeah, like everything's just a giant kind of mess and we're making making the rest of it and trying to squeeze in things here and there but there's no real routine at the moment I guess I'll have them work there's a workers and yeah, every day's a school day I feel for you guys over there My goodness. Because your children in your art, do they like to look at themselves in your art? Like do they get excited to be part of Yeah, yeah, they do. They do. They love it. Actually. I love looking at it. And I've been surprised even some more abstract things they've been able to, you know, pick each other out. So yes, yeah. They're involved. I know that I do it. You know, we often paint together or not often we sometimes paint that's not a sort of a stressful activity. Yeah, you prepared for things like that? Don't you have to get ready to clean up and have not have to go everywhere? I work in childcare so I can understand what you're saying. Oh, goodness, childcare is amazing. I love my job. I get to like it's it's kind of a relief that the kids get to do all those types of activities at childcare because Oh, yeah. Okay, but you got to you got to get it out of childcare. And then you can get changed and it's fine. You can go home looking like you haven't touched any paint or text lately A couple of the big topics I like to chat to my guests about are mum guilt, and identity. I guess I can just ask him, What do you feel about the topic of mum guilt? It doesn't really resonate as a term so much with me. I guess. Yeah, I mean, of course, I would have worries about the kids or, you know, certain things that are going on on with them that you you worry about. I think after I had Remi, our first child I had, I had quite bad postnatal anxiety. Um, so I definitely would think that I had a lot of guilt then about certain things. And a lot of that was tied into breastfeeding issues. And I had all sorts of things that were misdiagnosed, and it kind of came to a head and I switched over to bottle feeding. So I definitely had guilt around those sorts of issues quite early on. And just the classic, you know, expectations on your stuff that, in hindsight, are unrealistic. And but, you know, it's very hard to see that for yourself. Yeah. But I guess now, I think my practice has always fitted in around the kids, probably, and especially until this year, when I started doing my masters. So I've never, I've never felt guilt in a sense that, you know, time that I've been investing in that has been taken away from them, because it's always been something that I've done at night. You know, occasionally, might have had a few hours in a day type of thing. Also, I think, when I think about the word guilt, it, it feels to me like it's something that you would feel after you've done something that you knew intentionally was wrong, or misguided, or bad or something like that. Whereas I think being a parent, you're always acting in their best interest you. You're trying to do your best even if, you know, maybe it's not, maybe it's, it's not quite right, but yeah, so I guess there's a term but it's not something that would sit, sit with me, I really am. I think if there was something that was bothering me, you know, be quite quick to talk to Simon and my, my husband about it and you know, thrash it out together type thing. Yeah. It does feel like a label. And it feels like it. It, it does a disservice to the very real and deep feelings that you would have towards your child. Like it feels like it kind of almost glosses over that depth of feeling that or concern that that you have for your child. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't. Yeah. Yep. It's so much more complex and detailed and unique. Individual then, you know, then being able to apply a label like that, I guess. Not all love that answer. Age dwellers Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben had it. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate, and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts. So then leading into identity and I you did mention it earlier, talking about your work and your art practice. When when you throw motherhood in the mix. Do you feel like that it's important for you to retain that the part of yourself that isn't the mother? Yeah, absolutely. So I guess like I was saying earlier I use I used to think about things being more siloed in these kind of camps, like I had my art practice and I went to work and those two things didn't really intersect, but over the last few years, and maybe it's an impact of having kids, I'm not sure. But when I think of all those different types of, perhaps of identity or other roles and embedded comments that that I would have, you know, as, as a mum, and as an artist, and as a spouse, daughter, everything, yeah, I see myself as being all those things equally. And fully, I don't see them as part of the jigsaw either that that would fit together. But, but that I'm all those things. And practically speaking, of course, they have different kind of biting, you know, different stages of life, or even through the course of the day, like those things fall into a natural kind of balance, but they're all part of an integrated life. And I've, I think I've finally gotten my head around that a bit more, and that they don't, they don't have to bite up against each other. It's just all they can sort of all everything all the time. Yeah, yep. And but they definitely feed into each other. So if I've, you know, had some space and time through the way to, to focus on my artwork and to be quiet in the studio, then absolutely, that reflects in the way that I am with, with my kids in the sense that I think it helps me to be more present. When I am with them. I'm not so much thinking about. But it allows me time and space, I guess, to really focus on them. So I think they shifted from thinking that they all these different things take away from each other, but they don't they all support each other and work together. Like I said, as part of an integrated life. So that's been a big shift for me, and, and being able to shift my thinking around there. And I think it's helped. Yeah, help me manage my expectations. I guess I've myself. Yeah, I think it just, it kind of satisfies that desire, I guess to for that part of your life that then enables you to concentrate on another aspect. And that's, that, that sounds very kind of cut and dried. But thanks, unconsciously, it's, it's all those things feeding into each other. And, and, yeah. It's a wonderful abs and no one's ever answered it in quite that way. I think that's a lovely thing. Yeah. That's really cool. Especially because, yeah, you've adjusted your thinking, and you've come to this realization, I think that's awesome. Yeah, helping me to be a bit more, a bit more settled, I think. Yeah, yeah. And not always, not always feeling like things are taking away from each other. I think that's a big thing. Things are not at the expense of each other. It's just a different balance of time and space in that moment. And then I guess you can feel quite comfortable with whatever you're doing at that time. Yeah, you like sort of keep saying it again. But you can actually be quite settled in that moment and not have your mind racing off. Elsewhere. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I think that's gonna help a lot of people actually. Hearing you say, that's something a lot of people's do struggle with. Yeah, definitely. It's, and it's not saying time for that as something selfish or only fulfilling yourself, but it has a broader impact out into kids and family life. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of people talk about needing that something for themselves, so they can feel fulfilled. And then that helps them present. I hate saying the word best version of themselves, but the version that they want to present to their children or to their spouse or to their work. So they they need that to fill them up. So then they can go out in the world and how they want to be, I suppose. Yeah. 100% agree with it. And it manifests in all sorts of different things. You know, for some people, it's exercise or cooking or whatever it is that I guess is is good for the spirit. Yeah, that's Sitting here. Yeah, absolutely. We talk a lot in childcare about having a cup filled up, like with the children have that emotional cup filled up and it's so important as adults not to forget that we actually do need that. Yeah, absolutely. Have you got other mums that have had a similar experience juggling the art and, and mothering that you've sort of been added to? Yeah. Probably not in my immediate network or my immediate friends group, but certainly call it colleagues or other people that are at school that you come into contact with. But I think what I found most valuable is just the friends who are juggling some sort of balance between being a mother and also like, we were talking about continuing to invest in those things that they feel it feels fills them up. So, you know, for some it's work completely and it's it's about maintaining that balance between work life and home life. And you know, for others, it's, I guess, different sorts of hobbies, but I guess yeah, there's probably no one specifically. With Ah, that's, that's close to me. But I would also listen to a lot of podcasts and things like that not not even so much to do with being a parent and managing an app practice. But I, I guess there's this so much available you can be you can kind of always find something that that helps you in some aspect of your life. I really enjoyed that episode you had with Rachel power. Yeah, I read her book. Very early on, when after we had me a son, that that was a real game changer for me because I was really struggling with postnatal anxiety. And I just lost myself in that book. I just, I just loved it. You know, just, I think, just realizing, which seems so obvious now. But realizing that you know, so many people are in the same boat juggling, dealing with the same issues. And I think having your first child, it's such a shock. Well, I found it's such a shock to the system. Just completely turned my life upside down. And I know it's the same for everyone. But I think reading that book. It really helped me early on. I think, yeah, yeah, a lot of people have said that to me that it almost it gave them validation that what they're experiencing was actually okay, and normal. And you know, this Yeah. And I told him to Rachel was amazing. She's such a generous person. To lovely to talk to. Yeah, and that's thing I think, even like, we know, everyone has kids, like, we know lots of people have children, but when it's happening to you, you can feel so alone and so confused and lost and just takes you know, in that case, one thing to say actually, this is normal you get liberated, you know, because there's so much information like there's so much information and and to find something that really help is helpful and really resonates it's that's yeah, it's worth the trawling through all the other stuff that you find yourself googling it. Three o'clock in the morning when the baby won't sleep or feed, but certainly you're taking advice from some, you know, mother and Midwest, Texas. Some time What am I doing? Oh man So my main focus at the moment is my MFA. I'm doing that part time. So it's going to be a four year process, which is great at the moment, because, you know, so much time has been consumed with lockdown and homeschooling and just being on full time as a parent. But definitely in the background, I'm chipping away at, at work that I'm developing as part of my, my studies, and some working with my, I have two supervisors as well, who I meet with, you know, kind of every three to four weeks to look at things. So I'm working on a new series of drawings, which are taking that concept of animation, so of sort of things moving through time, and, and displaying that kind of, or working with that visually, but they're not drawings that are layered on top of each other, as they have been previously for making animation. So I guess, I'm exploring the possibilities of, of time, like the passing of time in in drawing without the final outcome being an animation, so they'll stay as a suite of drawings that will, I think, be like the final outcome, but still dealing with these with the ideas of, of times, passing and how to represent that visually, and aesthetic to deform. Yeah, so that's sort of where I am at the moment with, with, with my studies. And, and, as I said earlier, my research is, is looking at representations of face I'm working with identifying artists who work with those sorts of things in their work currently, and, and also looking at the sort of working back in into recent history and, and looking at how questions of faith have been articulated in, in art. Yeah, it's really interesting. So yeah, it's almost like you're being a bit of an art historian. Yeah. And drawing threads from that into my own practice as well. You know, things that you you read and, and think about, you know, have a way of weaving themselves into your own practice. Certainly, that's, that's been my experience anyway, so it's quite loose. I don't have, you know, an endpoint mind at all. It's just starting to flesh out some of these. These ideas, I guess. Yeah. But it's very slow. And a lot of it is just going on and in my head, because we don't have the bandwidth at the moment to, you know, be spending a lot of time in the studio. Yeah, yeah. When this damn COVID moves or moves on. You'll be back. Yeah. Yeah. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet

Rose Dela Cruz New Zealand photographer S2 Ep37 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Rose Dela Cruz is a photographer from Auckland New Zealand and a mum of 1 daughter. Rose moved from her home country of the Philippines when she was 11 years old with her mum. Rose began her photography life in 2012 as a second shooter assisting at weddings as a bit of a hobby. At that time, she had no plans to peruse it as a career, just enjoying taking photos when her and her husband travelled. But when her daughter was born in 2020 she fell in love with capturing her. The seeds were sown and Rose began her photographic business, specializing in relaxed, candid and un-posed outdoor shoots, utilizing the surrounding beaches and “the golden hour” (about an hour before the sunset). Her favourite subjects are couples, expectant mothers and families. And she loves to make connections with her subjects and take time observing them, particularly the children. Rose also has a background in dancing, music, playing the guitar. She has an intense desire to create, in whatever form that my take. Rose's instagram https://www.instagram.com/journeybyrosephotography/ and new website www.journeybyrosephotography.com Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/artofbeingamum_podcast/ Music used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=yJPCGKTpSqyXh_l3zQfvDQ When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health and how children manifest in their hours. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bowhunting people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for tuning in today. It really is a pleasure to have you. My guest today is Rose Dela Cruz. Rose is a photographer from Auckland in New Zealand, and a mother of one daughter. Rose moved from her home country of the Philippines when she was 11 years old with her mum. She began her photography life in 2012 as a second shooter, assisting at weddings as a bit of a hobby. At that time, she had no plans to pursue it as a career, just enjoying taking photos when her and her husband traveled. But when her daughter was born in 2020, she fell in love with capturing her and the seeds were sown. Rose began her photographic business specializing in relaxed, candid and unposed outdoor shoots, utilizing the surrounding beaches and the golden hour, that hour before the sunset. Her favorite subjects are couples expectant mothers and families and she loves to make connections with her clients and take the time to observe them, particularly the children. Rose also has a background in dancing, music and playing the guitar. She has an intense desire to create in whatever form that may take. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Welcome along raise. Thanks so much for coming on today. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. Yeah, so you're over in New Zealand. In Auckland. Yeah. So what's your weather like there at the moment? Are you your summer is still in summer? Yes. Summer It's so hot. So humid. Reminds me of Philippines when when we were living there. Didn't you step out outside of the mall or somewhere cool. And it's just it hits here, you know? Yeah. Yeah. You came out of that air conditioned and you're like, Oh, yeah. Oh, dear. So how long have you been in New Zealand for you mentioned during the Philippines? Oh, we I came here when we came here. My mum and I when I was 11. So not really long time ago. And now I'm I'm 31. So 2020 years? Yeah. 20 years? Yep. Yeah. Pretty much pretty much grew up here. Yeah. Yeah. Very good. So tell me about your work. You're a photographer over there in New Zealand. Yeah. How long have you been out for? Um, I started back in 2012. But that was mostly as a hobby. I used to do, I used to be a second shooter for my friend down from 323 photography, and he does wedding photography. And I used to be a second shooter for him. So but it was mostly like I said, as a hobby. So I didn't really, you know, I, I didn't think I was gonna pursue it as a business. And so I had my baby. So for a long time, it was mostly you know, my when I got married my husband when we would travel. I will he would be the subject my photography, and then came along my baby. So she became the subject of my photography and I just fell in love with, you know, capturing her and I think I speak for most moms. When I say that once you have a baby, your cameras, your vet your videos are filled with that of your your children. Oh, absolutely. Do you so How old's your daughter? She's two. Yeah, right. Oh, fun time. So just trying to actually I know Oh, very talkative now. Yeah. It's a good age, though, isn't it when they can sort of they can, they can express their feelings to you a bit more. Yeah, there's a lot more. Yeah. Communications. Communication. Yeah. Which is, which is a relief because then, you know, she's able to she's not just crying all the time. And the more she's able to actually tell me what's bothering her or what she needs. So and as a mom, you know, you it's a relief to be able to provide exactly what you know. She's wanting and yeah, yeah, absolutely. So were you always sort of interested in photography? Like, did you grow up? Sort of surrounded? Yeah, artistic people or not? Well, I've always had the creative side, I've always loved like, dancing. Dancing is like, a part of me also. But right now, it's just not something that, you know, I've, I could, you know, spend time doing so growing up, like even art and stuff I've always loved creating. So in photography, you know, growing up with my friends, they we love taking photos of each other. But nothing like I said, growing up, nothing too serious. It was more of a hobby, but the more I, you know, I think it started when I first bought my DSLR which is, you know, like the, the big camera that I have, and it's, it's when I started to really, like started to learn about photography about composition. And like I said, doubt, my friend was a big part of that. He taught me a lot about photography. And being because I started in the wedding industry, it's there's a lot of detail to capture a lot of emotion, a lot of you know, it's, it's, there's a lot to learn from it. So it was a really huge part of my, how I develop my photography now. But now I I focus more on like families, expecting mums expecting parents, couples, and babies and toddlers. So that's where I kind of yeah, my passion grew into that. And yeah, I just love like watching the dynamics among families. Yeah, and children how they play and how they have so there's just so much joy like they find joy and everything and anything. So it's lovely to be able to capture that that innocence and just pure joy. Hmm. Yeah, that's it isn't like something we see is really mundane, or we take for granted. They're really drawn to something and they're like, fascinated by like tiny details. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. It's super interesting. Yeah. And I noticed I was looking on your Instagram feed you use the ocean a lot in your photos. Is that something that are connected to as well? Yeah, just the beach of I love the beach. I love going to the beach. My toddler loves the beach. I mean, if she while she sees the water she just kind of goes for it you know? And I had to kind of hold her in because otherwise she'll just keep going she loves so she it's there's just something about out another water that really calms me. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I guess you to your your subjects like you people that you've photography you're photographing, they probably quite relaxed too because it's you know, it's a space Yeah, most people feel comfortable in. They can just be themselves. Yeah, exactly. And that's it helps because because my style is more natural, more relaxed, it helps that ambience it helps set that tone. And I love doing it during sunset so I love I really love Golden Hour, which is about an hour before the sunset. That lighting is just because I use natural lighting in my in my photography. Even if I do indoors, I utilize natural lighting. So it's it's just there's something about that lighting during sunset. That's just so beautiful. Oh yeah, absolutely. And the funny thing is like, every, every time I do a sunset session, it's never the same. You think, you know, like, oh, the sunsets, you know, as the sunsets is the same lighting, but it's not it's just it's different. And it's that uniqueness. It's so beautiful. Yes, I love it. So even if two people have got like this roughly the same time, they're gonna look different then the same. Yeah, even the same place, same place, same time. Different, just different lighting. Yeah, it's cool, isn't it? It's really fascinating that people would love that too. Like, no one really wants to have exactly the same photos have a vision of what they what they'd like. And, but it turns out, not exactly the same. Even if it's similar. It's not exactly the same, which is, you know, it's lovely to see the differences sorry, forgive my lack of geographical knowledge. These are Auckland on the coasts. Now, well, we're kind of I have to, to be able to get to like the beaches. I have to drive quite a bit because we're like, I'm right. We're right in the center. I live in South Auckland, which the nearby beach like actual beach that I go to the west along the west coast is about maybe 15 minutes from here. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. And even the east coast beaches. It's about a safe half an hour. Yeah, right. Yeah. So your your though, hang on while I'm talking to you. I'm just going to bring him back up. Sorry. I'm really interested in when I talk to people I love to know them when the weather and all of a live. I'm like, I find it really fascinating. I see. So you're right up you're like right in. I say Oh, that would be cool place to be because you kind of like like you said you have access to Yeah, we're surrounded by beaches north. But yeah, in South Auckland, it's most like you have to do a better driving to get to. To the beaches. Yeah. But still, it's no it's not like, I don't know. It's not. It's not unaccessible you know, no, you can do it and it's not enraged. Yeah, that's the word. And like when when we were in Philippines, you have to drive six hours to a beach to make a trip out of it. It's not just and I think we're so blessed to be I were so blessed to be in New Zealand now where you know, you get to you could drive half an hour and get to a a wonderful beach, you know, a safe beach where the kids could play you know? Yeah, because not all people could have that. Oh, absolutely. I think I think when you're in a place like that you sort of take it for granted a little bit because he like it's so easy. But yeah, where I live I live well we're Brett 2530 minutes from the beach. But I also there's a really amazing swimming place about 20 minutes like on the way to the beach 20 minutes there. And it's called the little blue lake and it's this this naturally occurring like big like hole basically it's all got eight meter cliffs all around it and it's just this stunning place and we go there lately because it's been really hot we've been going there like every day I was just there last night for you. How lucky are we like we're in this amazing place it's 20 minutes down the road from our house like Yeah. Pretty special Yeah. So when you were pregnant were you still working doing your use second? What was sorry? What did you call it? Second cam second shooter. second shooter. Yeah, shooter. Yeah, we used to active taking photos but not so much. I think I stopped doing second shooting for weddings when I got married. It just after that things just got busy. You know, you adjust like with life as a wife, you know from being Single and and then you focus on much with work and because that was about around the time where I started working as well as you know, full time. So no, it's I kind of stopped and it became a hobby of whenever we would travel especially so my husband and I love traveling, especially during our, our, our anniversary, so we would go down to South Island, and we love to explore, you know, the different parts of South Island, and we would just do a lot of road trips. And I would do a lot of photography then like when we would travel. But other than that there was little or no time to actually pick up my camera. Yeah, yeah. So when you're when you had your daughter, and you and you sort of you, this renewed sort of passion for your photography came back, how long did it take you to decide to make a business out of it? I guess. It took me like, a solid year and a half. Yeah, I've been thinking about it. Like when my baby, when maybe we came along, you know, it's I had more more time being at home. And when she was a baby, you know, like I would hold her, I would hold her when she naps, she was a bit huge and settled that she didn't want to sleep in on her on her bassinet. And so there's a lot of time where I would hold her and so I would have a lot of ideas. You know, and if I decided that every time she would turn every month when it was on the 29th which is her birthday is 29th of January. So on the 29th Every month we would capture I do it like a photo shoot for her. So and I managed to get getting my husband to come do the photo shoot as well with us. He Yeah, so every month I would do that. And it became I just became like, my passion grew, you know, like you, you just I loved it. I was able to edit her photos, you know, as she was sleeping, I would do a lot of editing. So it really I think it became a good platform. For what I do now, if I didn't have that I don't think I would have had the same passion and same kind of standards with my work. Yeah, so that was a big part of it. When she was born. I had that though. It became like a project for me. Something that I had going for me, you know. So that was nice. And looking back, you know, now she has these photos, and I could look back on them and see how much she grew. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's really special. I'm gonna ask how did you go on the 29th of February when it wasn't a leap year? Actually, there was a leap year on where she was born. Oh, me. 20 Was it? Oh, I remember I think I think there was. And then the following year, there wasn't. So after she turned one year, I kind of stopped doing it, you know? Yeah. It became too much, you know, like, she would start to move around. And it was it became impossible to kind of have her stay still. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but added the added element then of movement, even when she was about nine months old when she was searching. Yes, exactly. I had to have the most ridiculous props, like I would get socks in front of the camera and just to try and entertain her better to look at the camera. So I've done it all like moms would say, you know, my clients would say I don't know how you would able to get my capture my my baby or my little one because they're so you know, they're, they want to explore, they can't just sit in front of the camera. And I tell them it's that's not my style. I my my two year old is loves to explore, she would not sit still. And I don't believe in kind of forcing, you know the kids to kind of sit there and stare at the camera and look at look at the camera to smile because the more they explore the more happy they are, the more natural they are. And then you don't need to guide them you just follow them around and kind of be ready when that when that moments there. And that's the thing. That's the challenge for me as a photographer is to catch those moments without them having to be conscious of the camera. Yeah, absolutely. And you'll see like their true personalities comes out because they're not they're not thinking about the camera in their face. They're just exploring and being living their life like normal. No, because when when you ask people to pose or when you ask people to smile, they kind of they post but they once you say okay, we'll take a five min. In a break, they relaxed. They tend to like that. And it's the most candid posts. And I like to. I like to take snaps of that too. Yeah. Yeah. When I say you know, it will take a five minute break. I don't actually mean that. I just wanted to relax and then I snapped them photos. But you know, you get a lot of you get a lot of good photos out of us. Oh, yeah, I bet. Yeah. Cuz we might see it like, as soon as, as soon as you're conscious of the camera is you do you tense up? And then you, you think, or how do I have to look? So you're thinking, you're trying to change how you look? You're not just being itself. So yeah, I have that. That's really, that's a great idea. When you're talking about doing your photos with your daughter, you said you had to have something going on for you. Was it important for you at that point to have something for yourself? Yeah, it was, I think, because especially when COVID hit, you know, and we were doing a lot of lockdown. It was important for me to have a project for myself. That is outside the routine of taking care of baby taking care of everything, you know, running the household. Yeah, you know, something that was for myself. A break? Because then once I, once I had that, it was kind of like I was able to, I don't know, be more relaxed. Yeah, when I take care of her, and she could feel that. Yeah, that's really that's a very common thing that moms talk about. If they've got something for themselves, then when they when they return to their parenting. They are, they're relaxed, they're less stressed. They've got more patients like all this, you know, you feel you feel like yourself, your needs have been met, so then it's easier to sort of meet other people's needs, I suppose. That makes Yeah, yeah. And you also mentioned dancing before, what style of dancing, like I used to help cop was because I was in the wedding industry. And I have a lot of friends during you know, that time. My age, it was the marrying age. Like, you know, 22 So I had a lot of friends. They're like 20s and 30s. So I would help them choreograph their first dance. But it was like a mixture. It was really a mixture. I did interpretive dancing. I at some point did hip hop, but now something like that, but it was a crucial part of me like growing up. I dance since I was able to walk. Yeah, right. Yeah, so it was it's kind of just been but I never turned that into a business. It was it was it was basically I'm I have this creativity that I need to kind of express and whether that be in dancing or music, because I play the guitar also, or just anything but the photography, I think that was really something where I could it worked a lot for our schedule. Because with my photography, I could whenever I have to drive out to the beaches to meet my clients and do a photo photo shoot there. I get time for myself, you know, when you drive out there when you drive back that hour of session where you're just you're not thinking about anything else. But you're, you know, the people in front of you their story there, you're able to share life with them in that hour that you meet them and get to know their family a little bit more. I think that's so special, but that time away from my family enables me to come back and sorry, that's okay. That's okay. enables me to come back home and just, I missed them. I missed them so much. And I'm excited to see them. Yeah. So it's like, you have this renewed energy when you come back. Yeah, brand new energy. Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. You mentioned about what works for your schedule. So how do you how do you schedule your clients around? Yes, so I do photoshoots and the weekends or at night, because sunset right now it's not until 845. So usually I come out at seven 730, something like that. So it works so well. And on weekends as my husband can watch her, and it's good time for them to bond. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm not at all worried. Yeah, you can relax and do your thing. You said you're not thinking about what's happening back at home. You're you're concentrating on in front of you. Yeah. Your mom still with you in in New Zealand? Yeah, she is. Yeah. Yeah. So she's for sometimes she would she would be with them. Yeah, she would be with her. We call her. Lola. Lola. Is grandma in Tagalog? Oh, that's special should be to have it with these two. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And obviously, she's I'm an I'm an only child. So she's, she loves spending time with her only granddaughter. Yeah. And you mentioned you've got your husband, obviously, you've got you've got some good support around you to be able to, to make it work. Yeah. I definitely, I don't think I'll be able, because my husband is my biggest support when it comes to my photography. He just pushes me to, you know, keep going and just encourages me, you know, and he loves that I do this. So it helps a lot when you have huge support like that. Because when you start a business, it's there's a lot of hurdles that come along the way. And it will really kind of question why would you do if you still want to keep going with what you're doing? But having support from your family from your friends it? Yeah. It's a big thing. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Do you ever sort of experience mum guilt or have any thoughts about mum guilt? That topic at all? Yeah, I, if, if we did, you know, I had a look at like, the definition of mom guilt. Because I've heard you know, you you hear once you become a mom, you hear you hear that term. It was a foreign concept to me before I had my baby, you know, and I looked it up answers, you know, where is that feeling when you feel like you haven't done enough or you're not doing? You think you're not doing everything? Right? Like there's something that that needs? That you're not? You, you feel like you're not doing everything right, that there's something missing? Yeah. So you have that feeling? And if by that definition, yes, I there, there have been moments, of course, where you feel like you you're not doing the right thing, because there's no manual that comes with, you know, being a first time parent. Everything is you to you. And even before when when I was pregnant, you know, you have friends, families, and they mean well, they give you advice, but you don't know exactly what it's like until the baby comes. And some things apply to you. That don't apply to other moms. Yeah, no, you do. Yeah. You deal with what comes in your child. Your children have different personalities as well. So you adapt to that. So yeah, there have been moments where I feel like oh, you don't know what I'm doing. But a big part of of the way we cope with that is our faith in God like my husband, I have such strong faith in God and it's it's a big part of how we parent and how we cope with the struggles and the challenges that come with it. I think all of us have. You know, we all have our different challenges when it comes to parenting with every stage. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then in terms of your work, do you sort of feel like I shouldn't be doing this? I should be home with my daughter, like, Does that ever crossed your mind? Or you're like, No, this is my thing. I know she's fine. It not at the moment, because of the schedule. With my photography, I think it's a nice balance. And that was one of the reasons why I'm not going to wedding photography. Just yet anyway, I'm not sure if I ever will. But with my with a solid photography, with my niche with families, and you know, maternity sessions, even like newborn and couples, like engagements I can I can do engagements that the type of sessions I do allows me to just be away from my family for a little bit of time. Majority of the work I do for my photography is actually either the editing or the admin around it. And I can do that at home. I can do the editing when she's napping when she's asleep at night. Yeah, I do the admin around the clock kind of around her schedule, basically. So it works well, because I have time away for a little bit from them. And I'm also able to do a little bit of work around her schedule. So right now it went because I'm not doing wedding photography, it works so well. But if I do, it's going to change a lot because wedding photography is a whole different ballgame where you're away for like the entire day. But even as I think about how I'm going to do that I need to prepare you know, food for her before I go out for the day. And then you don't come back until very late at night. Once the wedding has finished. And then even after the event, you have to backup the file. So if even as I do sessions now, after I come back, I always do backup. So you have to backup the raw files, save them in multiple storage, because the worst thing that can happen is have your photos deleted. You can't get back in time. But yeah, no film, there's no way to I mean, with digital files. Now, you know, there's some way to kind of retrieve some if you've lost them. But I don't ever want to go down that path because I have lost files before not for photography. But when I was studying, I would lose like reports and essays when my USB or laptop crashes. And it's not a good feeling. Oh, no, it is. It is the worst feeling in the world. I did it the other day. Actually, I was I don't know how I did. I was writing on a website. And then somehow I clicked back on my mouse and was like, how did I do that? And then it went back and everything just disappeared. So I thought I'll go forward and it'll be there. And it wasn't I was like, Oh, I just do it again. Anyway, I'm digressing. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. So the other thing I'd like to chat to moms about is identity. So how the concept of themselves might have changed when they became a mum. And you've sort of talked a little bit about it was really important for you to have that creative outlet, doing doing your photography when your daughter was younger, how did you sort of feel about that? That concept of identity change? It's, I mentioned before that like, my husband and I have such strong faith in God and my identity is also rooted on that. And yes, I'm a wife, I'm a mom. I'm a friend, I'm a daughter, but first and foremost, I'm a child of God. And when when I my beliefs, my belief system, my my faith in God, the truth, his truth from from the word it fuels everything that I do in fuel was how I I take care of my husband. It fuels how I become a mom For my two year old, it was how I do my craft, how I take care of the clients that I have in the work the standard of work that I do. So my identity because my identity is secure, and that it helps kind of it helps me figure out all the you know, the challenges, the how I navigate the different parts of my life? And, yeah, it's, it's definitely I would definitely say, you know, I have this thing, when I talk to my friends, where they asked, you know, you, you go from here to here, when you're engaged and from your from being engaged to being married, you go from here to there, it's like a step up. In terms of like, you know, more responsibilities, the different changes, you have to adapt to live a different lifestyle. And then when you become a parent, it's more like, there's this whole 360 Yeah, or one AB, just a huge turn of your life, that lifestyle is completely changed your your, so your identity definitely changes. Having a kid changes you, you know? Because suddenly, you don't look at everything the same way. Hmm. Even as you go. In every decisions that you make, you now have a little one to think of you now when you go to with my husband, I used to go to mall to, you know, around the malls in shopping. And we never really noticed parent rooms. When he became a parent. Yes. Like, where is the best parents? That kind of when, when you didn't have a kid kind of bypass you. Yeah. You just know about those things, right? No, it's not. And now when you go to when you travel somewhere, you used to just think about where you where your destination is. But now, as a mom, you think about all the different. Is there a playground nearby? Is there is it somewhere accessible? You know? Can I take my Prime Day? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So you're Yeah, you're definitely your identity definitely changes in terms of you don't think the same way. You have somebody that you care for now, it's not just about you. It's not just about your husband or your comfort. It's, it changes completely changes. So yeah, yeah, it's about navigating those identities, you know? Yeah. I like the way you put that, that your faith helps you. Helps you position like helps you navigate that you've always got some solid that you can come back to. Yeah, that's always there. Yeah, that's really nice. I love that. Yeah. That's because it's it's so it's so hard. It's all the changes that you have to go through it's hard enough as it is, it will definitely challenge like the way you think it helps you, man the learning. I mean, how much have I grown in the two years that I've had, you know, my toddler Yeah, it's it's just and the learning curve is like dude, like straight up in the air like you don't even get a warm up to it. It's just like, No when the during the day we when you chatting or you know, you you obviously have a connection to your clients, you don't just, you know, you don't just go snap, snap snap. You've talked about how you like to chat with them and get to know them a bit. Do you sort of find just say you've taken a photo of like a couple, like a pregnancy shot. And then you make them when they're, when they've got their baby? Do you find that people sort of share how they're going and how like the adjustments like do you do come across this sort of identity shift or change when you're chatting to your clients as well? Yeah, definitely. And because the you know, you I don't like to pry. I kind of they when they ask me a question about my life, or you know, I tell them about my kid I share stories about My baby and and they in turn share stories, you know how they're able to relate to that? And yeah, you see how it changes, it changed them. There's this connection also when you both know your parents, there's this kind of mutual understanding. And you know, you don't need to kind of say it, it's their fat connection where you know, you understand you understand exactly, you know, it might not be exactly the same story. Again, different babies different style of parenting, different exposures, different kinds of help that they get, or I get, but I think the main, the main thing that I always hear is the complete change of lifestyle. You know, it definitely changes you as a person. Yeah. Oh, gosh, it does. Amazing. It's hilarious. When you think back on what you used to do. I always say to people, I feel like I wasted so much time. Because when you have a child, it's like, any little bit you can get for yourself. Like, what can I do with my time? I still think that also I say I say to myself, I had so much time on my hand before I didn't even realize it. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? You just you didn't realize that? Nothing's free life, like, and then all of a sudden is like, oh, yeah, and now now it's not your schedule anymore. Yeah. Especially when you have little ones you know, it's definitely not your, like, time anymore. It's just you have to you cater, you cater first for your child, what do they need? How can I work around around this? So yeah, that's been, that's been an adjustment also, especially now that that pursued, you know, my photography, you do, you do need to. You can't just pick up your camera up and go and come back and then do all the other work that you need to do. Right. When you want to do them. You have to work around your baby schedule, because there he's she's still my priority. She's, you know? Yeah, yeah, that's it. And it's not like she can wait, like, you know, you just stay there while I do my thing. You'll be like, this doesn't sit there. Okay. I just need to backup my files. And then add that Do you understand this? You'll just look at me and say, milk come on priorities from priority. She'll point at the cupboards and say, yum, yeah. Which is food. And, okay, I'm gonna have to do this later because she's a sweetheart Can I ask you a little bit about having grown up in the Philippines will only listen to you were a little bit. What's the culture there like in terms of mothering? I was speaking to a lady the other day, who's from her, she's from China. And she said, mums in China, maybe not so much these days, but certainly in like her mum's era, their job was just to look after the children and look after the family, they didn't have any sort of interests for themselves. They weren't pursuing, you know, art or music. Their job was just to look after the family. Is there any sort of anything you can share around that in relation to the Philippines? What sort of culturally like mother's roles would have been? Yeah, we are very communal people like we we a lot you would see when you go to the Philippines, you will see a lot of families like living together with their in laws, or even even if they're not living together in the same house. Their houses are pretty much nearby. Like right next to each other. Yeah. So not all, but there's a lot like that. And you know how there's that saying, you know, you you raise your kid. What is that saying? Makes you feel a village? Yeah, it takes a village to raise this kid. Yes. That's exactly like Philippines. Yeah, you have that village. Everyone kind of helps out. Um, and they the concept of, you know, sleeping in a separate room is very, it's not popular there. One because sometimes the circumstances don't allow you it's Philippines is is not like New Zealand where you you have the luxury sometimes of having multiple rooms in the house sometimes, you know, you go into provinces and there's just one room and all of the families stay there. And that's the kind of, you know, for a lot of families that's the reality that they have to deal with. So yeah, co sleeping is not an option. I mean, you know, it's it's the only option. Yeah. And then so the kind of parenting that they have it's a lot of a lot of people help out which is a good thing which you get a mums get a lot of support in that sense. They can also have help you know, they can they sometimes have their their animals or their their own moms that come like almost every day that helped you know, who can help them out? Yes. How am I just making sure that we know he's still there. And this is kind of like it I mean, this this type of I guess, as as we talk and she's in the background, that's kind of how our community that's that's it. So you can't you engage them in every activity. They are they socialize like that there. They grew up there with their cousins and their their siblings together. They go out of the house and all the kids are on the street. Yeah, even even now, even at the age of having cell phones and, you know, computers, you still I love that about the Philippines, you go out of the house, and they're still there playing. Yeah, you see the neighbors kids? And yeah, because it's the kind of environment it's the kind of community that they have. Probably not right now with COVID, though. No. Oh, different story, hi, all different stories, or when the pandemic there and it's completely and completely changed the world. And on that to your daughters, too. So you've basically she the only life that she's known is during a pandemic, like that would have been challenging for you. I mean, you did mention before about having your, you know, your photography is sort of your outlet, during the pandemic, but literally her life has only existed during the pandemic, like that's extraordinary thing to think of, isn't it? Yeah. It's yeah, let's put it this way. We had so many lock downs. And then the last lap locked down and it's the, the longest to my husband for a year he's been telling me you know, I think we should we should build the deck, you know, just for the little one. I keep saying no, I'm not back at work. Yeah, it's a huge investment. I don't think we should go for it. And then after that locked down, I said to him, let's contact somebody to build the deck, because this is to go out and expel all that energy. She just needs to be out out of the house. Let's build that back. Oh, yeah. That's it in a nutshell. Isn't it? Really? Yeah. They need to you need she needs to explore she needs to play with other kids. And yeah, they need that stimulation. Otherwise you as a mom go crazy. Oh, yeah. It's like cabin fever. You're just trapped Correct. Right now I've got a list of all they'll be nice to do, you know, list for my photography. One of the main thing that I want to I want to launch go for it to go live is my website. I mean, I've been wanting to have a website to showcase all of my work there, you know, in one place, because right now I have my Instagram and I have my Facebook page, but I'm working on my website. Yeah, but I'm gonna throw in that maybe podcast in the future. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. So this is the thing, isn't it? Like, I've no, there's no, when you're in your creative person, like, you've talked about your dancing and guitar and photography, like, there's no limits to it, you know, if you want something, just do it, you know? Oh, great. Yeah, absolutely. And I think creative people are really good at doing that. Just giving things a try, you know? Yeah. And mostly without expectation, you can just try something because you think you want to try it, you know? And if it works, it works. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. And it's like, oh, I tried. You know, yeah, you can't you don't look back and say, what if? You know, the what ifs? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's another thing with now I'm a mom, I'm able to stay at home with my that's another thing why I decided to pursue my photography is i, it enables me to stay with her. Yeah, you know, it's not it's, I don't do it only for the financial reasons. But I can't ignore the fact that it also helps. So it's, you know, this is the timeout I have when I was working before my photography, I always wondered, oh, what would it be like to you know, have my own photography business, but like I said to you, it was more of a hobby thing, I was never going to turn this into a business one because I was too scared to I was more comfortable with just shooting for myself, then also providing it, you know, professionally asked for clients to have that expectations. But now I'm in the season of my life where if I have the courage, you can actually you're able to do it. You know, it gives me that platform, because now I have the time. Whereas before, it's mostly Oh, one day, maybe? Yeah. Whereas now, I'm in it, you know? Yeah. That's awesome. Good on. Yeah. That's good. You gave me opportunities they gave me you know, the opportunity to come meet you and talk to you. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I tend to, you know, meet a lot of people that I wouldn't have met through my photography, and that alone is a blessing to me. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I feel like that with this podcast, like, I'm talking to people that I would have had no reason to talk to you ever before. And it's wonderful meeting such amazing women, and learning so much. Like I love learning, particularly about, like, I love photography, I used to, I never did it professionally. But I used to take, do photos for weddings and stuff back in the day where it was on film. And I love the details of stuff like I was really drawn to, you know, like, the photos of the, you know, rings and like people's expressions, watching the wedding and things like that. I loved that. But it was just, you know, a hobby that I did a couple for friends, but my main thing is easic. So, when I talked to artists, it's so inspiring for me, because I'm like, Oh, I could give that. Like it's just, it's opened up all these new new ideas for me, and just fun things I can try for myself and learning. I really, really enjoy it. It's so much fun. That's good, because you need you do need that outlet. Hmm, absolutely. Yeah. Even if it's, I mean, some people resort to like cooking or baking and other people and to trying out different things that they've never tried before, or like me something that they've always wanted to try but they have been so afraid to try but also don't have the time nor enough motivation to actually pursue it. Yeah, and now and now that I do you know, I find and and my husband said you know, because I've been going back and forth on deciding whether to pursue you know, to pursue this business or not. And he said to me, you know, at least you won't have to look back and said you didn't try if it didn't work out then didn't work out it was a time in your life where you had you know, you were able to just try something new and just try and enjoy it just try enjoy the process all the things that you learn from it and I have been learning so much so much and I'm sure you have to as you started this journey Yeah. Oh, that's great. And like having the support like you said before, that's just you know, you can't you can't do things without having someone like that. Yeah, yeah, no, you can. Yeah, I put on him. You, thanks so much for coming on. It's been such a lovely chat this morning. And it's lovely to have some of your daughter's energies with Jana, thank you for having us. I'm sorry, I couldn't stay in just the one room and oh my lord, in order to oh, I mean, this is thing that we need people to. It's mum life, isn't it? It's what we do. The realities of being having to try and work. That's it, isn't it? But we make it work, don't make it work, whatever works. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Dr Melanie Cooper Australian mixed media visual artist + art historian S1 Ep07 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Dr Melanie Cooper is a visual artist and an art historian from Adelaide South Australia, and a mother of 2. Melanie combines painting + drawing with a mix of knitting, crochet, stitching and rug making techniques. In this episode we chat a lot about art, as Melanie’s expertise in the long 18th Century allows us to delve into the role and treatment of women artists during this era. We also discuss the importance of sharing our experiences as mothers, and the role of judgment in our current society – and how it got there. **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression** Melanie website See the Queen Victoria yarn bomb here Shop art supplies that Melanie uses here Podcast instagram / website Music in this episode used with permission - Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mom, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Dr. Melanie Cooper. Melanie is a visual artist and an art historian from Adelaide, South Australia, and a mother of two. Melanie combines painting and drawing with a mix of knitting, crochet stitching and rug making techniques in her art. In this episode, we chat a lot about art history as Melanie's expertise in the long 18th century, allows us to delve into the role and treatment of artistic women during this era. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression. Thank you for coming on, it's an absolute pleasure to have you. And I'm excited about the different sorts of things that you might be able to share as your role as an art historian, but you're also a visual artist. So let's start with that. Why don't you tell us about your own art practice? My art practice is pretty diverse. I as with my other work as well, I kind of consider myself to be an interdisciplinary artist. So I'm primarily a painter. But I also work across textiles and drawing and, you know, just a lot of a lot of different things I've been making. For as long as I can remember, like, even as a child I was, I've always been making stuff. My work is very personal to me it's very, it's, I guess it's a way for me to articulate things that I find very difficult to communicate verbally or in written language. I'm just kind of really interested in my, I mean, of course, my own experience, but also the spaces in between thoughts and ideas and experience and memory, like, you know, the things that we can't see, I try really hard to not just document experience, and those kinds of things, but also to kind of try and make my own thoughts and feelings visible in some form. So it's kind of it's a way for me to reconcile a whole heap of thinking and a whole heap of experience, but in a way that's really tangible. And so in a lot of ways, it's all about the process. For me, the end, the end point is always a great thing, because people can actually see it, but it's kind of it feels like it's work that's never finished, because I need to keep going. And it's almost ritualistic in a way, I guess, because I'm kind of quite often repeating myself, like, for example, in textiles, I'm using lots of the same sort of stitches. And as I'm doing that, I'm thinking and kind of integrating all of those ideas and thoughts and memories and, you know, and, and responses to place as well, I just kind of draw lots of connections from the outside world and sort of it kind of comes in, and then I sort of spit it back out into some sort of form. I don't I don't really, it's a really, really hard thing to explain. Like, it's just it makes sense to me anyway. And hopefully, when people when people will look at it, hopefully they kind of, you know, bring their own ideas to it as well their own responses, and there's no right or wrong answer. I'm not trying to deliver a precise message. You know, people don't have to have a perfect takeaway from it, as long as they kind of, you know, respond to it in some way. I'm happy. So. And that is the great thing about I think, too, in any of its forms that people will take what they need from I suppose in their own interpretation of what, what they're in their life or what they're going through or anything like that. So you're working with textiles, Melanie, what kind of materials are you working with? So with the with my textiles, this is a little bit confusing for people sometimes I consider that to be part of my painting practice. So I work with textiles in the same way that I mean, I know it's a different material. But the way that I you approach that practice is the same way that I approach my painting with the same ideas and the same motivations and the same kinds of thinking. But I use knitting and crochet. And I also use traditional rug making techniques and just a little bit of stitching as well, but predominantly things like punching, which is punching through a hashing surface with a needle and knitting and crocheting pieces of fabric that I sort of manipulate and stitch down and explore with that kind of material material. Process is a really good way For me to sort of like think through a whole heap of stuff, and I kind of figure it out as I go, I'm very intuitive, I don't really sort of sit down and draw up a plan or anything, I kind of work it out as I go. And product, of course, it's always really important, you know, you, you do want people to engage with something that you're really proud of. And it needs to be aesthetically appealing in some way. Whether whether that's a really positive thing, or you know, something that's a bit more challenging for people, that's cool. But it really is, like, the the, for me the whole, it's the process, you know, it's the end product is really, really important, of course, but the process? I mean, I wouldn't, I don't know that I would do it. If it wasn't for the process, you know, me like, I'm not just making stuff to decorate things. We thought we've got enough decoration. It's more. Yeah, I don't know, it's something that I still need to think about putting into words, because I find it really, really difficult. Yeah, it's kind of the process of experimentation and exploring, and just finding, finding out how far you can push something is really fun and really interesting as well. Yes, I like new techniques and, and working with things in different ways. And that sort of Absolutely. Tell me about your children. So I'm very fortunate to have a son who's almost 18, and a daughter, who is almost 11. So they're quite far apart in age. But they're just incredible. Little humans, you know, with very different different needs at the moment. They're both still at school, obviously. And, you know, they're both doing their own thing. And, you know, I'm, yeah, they're both. They're both very strong personalities. And of course, that comes with its own challenges sometimes, but I'm actually really proud of the relationship that I have with them. Both. Were really good mates. So I think, yeah, I love my children very dearly as all mothers do, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. You say this look seven years between your toy? I've got seven years between my two. Yeah. Some people think, wow, that's huge. And in some ways it is. But in some ways, it's not. Either. It's a funny thing is, Oh, yeah. And it's, I think, I'll be interested to see how they grow as they get older, because my oldest is 12, or 13. And my little ones about to turn six. So at the moment, they have times when they absolutely cannot stand each other. But I think as they get older, and dig becomes out of that little little person stage. They might, I mean, they get on great, don't get me wrong, but things might not be quite as explosive. Do you know, honestly, things can be quite explosive with my kids. And like, that's why I say, you know, they're both very strong personalities. They're both, they're both very, very clever. And they know how to test each other. And they do they, they do get explosive. But the funny thing is as intense as that is, sometimes they also have this really intense love for each other. It's and it's crazy. Like sometimes I'll just walk into a room and I'm like, oh my god, you guys are having a hug right now. What's going on? Is everything okay? Yes, fine. Mom is totally fine. You're sure? Yeah. And it's also because I think they're very different places in their own development. Like they have very, very different needs. Like, you know, Seth, my son, he, at the moment, he just really needs his own space. Sometimes he needs his own privacy and all those sorts of things. Like he's merely an adult. And his little sister likes to kind of walk into his room unannounced and jeans and he's just like, oh, my god, get out. And you know, he's never like, he's just playing a game or something. It's not anything major, but he's just like, leave me alone. And she Yeah, of course, you know, sometimes she just wants to be around her big brother. But and he does it to her too, though. Sometimes she'll be quiet. You know, she'll be sitting on the couch or in her room doing her own thing. And he'll come in and he'll be like, all over and, you know, just in the mood for a joke. And she's like, Oh, no. Yeah, and it all kind of kicks off and I have to Yeah, yeah. It's also really lovely though, when you find them playing, like, you know, when they they take their own initiative to get the ball guy outside and kick her around the backyard together, that kind of stuffs really lovely. Yes. Something good is here. So you said before you've been creating you pretty much your whole life. Has that sort of changed then as you had your children as they came into Your Life, we starting to find that challenge the balance between you and your role as a mother. In different times of my life, definitely. So I can't, I mean, there's a few different things I could say about this sort of stuff. Like, you know, before having kids, I really believed that I needed one full solid day to get something done, you know, I always had this kind of idea that you had to have a full day. And if you didn't have that full day, nine to five kind of idea, whatever those hours were, it really like there's no point. But I've since learned, especially with my second, with Scarlett half an hour, you can actually achieve so much in half an hour. Because sometimes that's all you get. And I mean, it kind of fluctuates, or depending on what's going on with them and where you are, in state, like the stage of their life and stuff. There's been times where I found it incredibly difficult. Like, with my painting practice, for example, I like when I had my son, Seth, I found that really difficult to get back into for a while because I had quite bad postnatal depression. So that kind of was a bit of a block for me for a while. But then after a period of time, I kind of learned when I was sort of working through that I was drawing and things but I kind of went back to knitting, which is something that I've kind of always been doing since I was like about five, but then I sort of realized, you know, this is a really portable medium, and I can just pick it up and put it down, I don't have to go out and studio. So I think that's where it kind of really started becoming this thing that I've incorporated into my practice. And over time, I kind of just kept pushing it more and developing it more. And that's so that's always been there. Like I'm always, you know, carrying around knitting or crochet because it is so portable, and I can't sit on the couch and not do things. So if I have to sit on the couch and nurse a baby or rock a baby to sleep, you know. So like there's, it's there's different ways that you can still be creative, without having to go out into the studio without having to have an entire day. And, you know, try and figure out all the other logistics around that. So I've just, I think I've always sort of looked for ways that I can still fit stuff in. And, you know, like, when they're not sleeping and stuff, that's really good thinking time. So you can use that time in the middle of the night to kind of think about what do I need to do tomorrow, and you start planning and organizing your thoughts. So that when you do have that time, you can just jump straight in, he's not kind of lost, not knowing where to go, what direction to take, or what needs to be done, you can just sort of like jump in and be productive. And I think that's that kind of motivates you and gives you the energy to keep going as well. Yeah, I think that's the thing that that mother who doesn't like I don't want to say adversity, but you know, just the challenges sometimes that you face and the things that you kind of find yourself up against, that you weren't prepared for. I think that's really taught me that yeah, actually, I'm really good at improvising. And, and that's really fun in itself too. Because sometimes you kind of you end up with outcomes you couldn't predict or better outcomes than if you planned and organized everything completely perfectly and down to the last minute. Like, sometimes you just kind of go, you know, do things by the seat of your pants, and you get up the other side of you think, wow, that's actually really great. And that could lead to something else. You know, like, never in a million years would I like when I was painting in art school, I didn't think that I would be you know, knitting in my actual painting practice. I kind of thought that's the thing that I do when I watch TV. And you know, it's not really part of my, my serious art career. But now it definitely is. Yeah, it's it's fun. It's fun. I think you've learned so much from being a mom. Yeah. And having to having to restructure your own thinking and just make things happen. You know, not just sit around waiting for the time, but actually just making that time you have to, otherwise it will never happen. Yeah, the thing for me as well, like, it's almost like a it's a compulsion for me to make like, it always has been even as a kid like, I just always have to make something and it doesn't always have to be like a big finished painting. Sometimes it is just, you know, something with a lump of air dry clay or, you know, a drawing in the mud out in the backyard or something like, I've just always had to do something. And yeah, it's a it's a compulsion, I think. But it's also I was thinking about this the other day, I think it's also about making a space for yourself, like making art or even just making and staff has just always been a way for me to take space for myself, even as a child. You know, and I think that's just become more and more important, as an adult, when you've got more responsibilities and have to divide your time or it becomes more challenging, but then also probably more important to do as an adult. Absolutely. It's like, mental health, you know, and it's, and it's so connected with looking Yeah, looking after yourself. And so, for me, it's very much part of my identity. I think, like, it's, it's not like, the job, the great job that I've got that I go to, and I'll retire from one day, so something that I think is always has always been a part of who I am. Definitely isn't. Yeah, it's one day, you just get to hang it up and go, right i that's finished now. I'm retired. What do I do? Exactly? Exactly. Yes. It's, sometimes it would be nice to sort of like bundle it up and pack it away. But it's no, that's not an option. I don't think. Wanted to ask you just you talked about your painting, how you never thought that your meeting would become part of you the way I think you said you serious art practice? How did how did it become part? Did you one day just decide to combine it like how did it physically happen? Um, it's a very, it's a very good question. So when I was in art school, I, I realized that I detested oil painting, and I. And so I couldn't do live painting anymore. And I wasn't really interested in that anyway. And so I dropped out of that subject. And I had to do another elective and sort of make that as like a, not just an elective subject, but like a major subject, and it was rug making. And I was like, Wow, this sounds really cool. And it's using wool. Awesome, I'll do that. So I learned some techniques. And, you know, just kind of played with that for a bit and then put it away. And when I thought, I just kind of, I kind of just stuffed around with it a bit and picked it up, put it down, and just put it played with those ideas for a while. And I kind of experimented without really taking it very seriously. And then, you know, fast forward a couple of years, I became a member of a studio here in Adelaide called voting booth studios. And I shared that space with several other artists. And at the time, I think there was 12 artists, but I had brought all my things from my old studio into the space and was unpacking stuff and messing around with things and just having a look at what I had. And one of the things that I had was a half finished, rogue or wallhanging, I wasn't really sure what to call it at the time. I pulled it out as looking at it. And one of my friends looked at it and said, Oh, what's this, and I was just this thing that I've just been playing with. And he's kind of like, oh, that's, that's kind of really cool. Maybe you should think about finishing it. I was really, okay. And, you know, I just wasn't at that time, I just wasn't really sure what I was doing. Because, you know, a whole heap of other stuff had just happened. And I was coming through a difficult place. But I just kind of thought, you know, this is an easy thing to pick up and just go on with, I'll maybe I'll figure out what I'm doing next. So I just kind of kept working on this thing. And then it became a finished piece. And I was like, wow. And there was just this one little engineer alpha, I don't really know what to do on this end bit. And I was mucking around with some knitting at home. And I just kind of something told me or compelled me to put that piece of knitted fabric onto the rug, and just see what it looks like. And so I was just like, wow, this is another way of combining surfaces and textures and different techniques, and actually really kind of like what's happening. And so that's what I started doing there. I sort of started messing around with it. And I was really excited by what I had discovered. And so I just kind of thought, what can I do next. And so I started making lengths of knitted fabric and started stuffing about with it in the next pieces and just kind of exploded from there. And I kind of realized, well, I can actually use knitting in the same way that I do. You know, brush strokes and different ways of applying paint, I can actually just make the paint and manipulate it and stitch it down or do something with it. And yeah, the more I do it, the more I do the more ideas or come up with and sometimes my head is just like swimming with ideas. I get really anxious because I don't know if I'm gonna get time to do it all because, you know, that's the exciting thing about knitting, sewing, and especially crochet too. It's only a couple of stitches. But the different ways that you can combine those stitches with different materials and different ways of like different combinations, you end up with so many different kinds of results. So it's exciting. And yeah, it just kind of it just kind of unraveled. And, like a very natural process. It just kind of kept expanding. From there. Yeah, really, that's really awesome story. And I think that's the thing about, that's the thing that I'm really grateful for being in that studio at that time. Because, you know, if it hadn't have been for someone walking past and looking at and going, yeah, that's pretty cool. Maybe you should see what happens if you finish it. Like just that little bit of encouragement from a friend, it was like, Yeah, okay, maybe this is worth thinking about. And, you know, the same friend was really amazing, too. I credit him with encouraging me when I had my exhibition, my first solo after that, will not my first solo but my first solo for a number of years, he sort of said to me, you know, the back is the back of that piece is really cool. Maybe you should think about hanging it so people can see the back as well. And that's, that was another really important part of developing my practice as well. He sounds like a pretty useful bloke to have around. I think, yeah, he's he's very generous person. And I think that's also one of the virtues and one of the great advantages of being in a studio with other people working around you. Because sometimes, you can give each other that sort of feedback, or, you know, just the comment of someone walking past is enough to make you think twice about, yeah, actually, maybe I won't throw that in the bin, you know, maybe that is worth spending some more time on. And that's been that's been incredibly valuable to me. So I'm very, I'll always be grateful for that. So you've done also yarn bombing, create, whatever, you're gonna make your knitting or crocheting, and then you go and put it out on structures in the town, or in the city? Yes, yes, I have. And I've had a lot of fun doing that, with a group of friends. We haven't done anything for a while, that tried to make something happen just after COVID. But it kind of fell through. That's a whole other story. But yeah, that's something that I got an enormous kick out of, I have to say, because it's different. It's a bit different now. But originally, the idea was, you make something and you attach it to a public structure somewhere, but you have to do it without being caught and without anyone seeing you because it's kind of illegal. So it's kind of like, yeah, hardcore ladies hit the town. You know, so much fun. The first time the first tag I ever did was just like, this crochet length of bright blue fabric, kind of like a scarf. And I went down one of the alleyways, just for Rundle Street, and my heart was beating. So it's in the middle of the day, and I was like, whipped it on around this pole, stitching it as fast as I could. And my heart was beating so loud, it was roaring you might use skipped off down the street afterwards on such a high. It was just, it was just this simple little band of blue, but it was like yes, I have done this really cool. Outlaw thing. Yeah, that was enormously fun. And then after that, we're just, you know, I kind of need some bow ties, and I attach these bow ties on to, you know, sculptures of people's heads and stuff down North terrorists and things and in the Botanic Gardens. But the really the really cool thing was, many years ago, I can't remember exactly what year it was. But there was this sort of like a street art festival thing that was happening. A former student of mine, Peter Drew, who's now done lots of lots and lots of other things. He was organizing groups of people to paint and, you know, sort of decorate, mini skips. And so I can't I can't remember exactly where I found out about it. I think it might have been a Facebook page or something like that. There was an idea to cover it with knitting like the st. yarn bombing stuff. So I kind of just went on my own. I had no idea I didn't had I didn't know anyone who was going to this thing. I just happened to meet this bunch of gorgeous women. Very different ages, very different backgrounds, and they're all just making these squares to cover this dumpster. It was so much fun and we just got along so well and so we kind of over a period of time. found ourselves in a group that we decided to call a play on the sly. It was enormous fun. We've done so many projects we did. You know, there was a festival coId called, boy you street art festival. There was a whole exhibition in the Festival Theatre. There are a couple of bank sees and other bits and pieces in there and we were asked to cover, I think are called the Mellie tree poles outside. That's like an installation. I'm not sure if it's still there. But we covered these big long poles with, you know, different lengths of fabric and attached insects and flowers and stuff to it. That was so much fun. But one of my favorite projects was a nano nano reckless Julie Collins and I went made a dress for the statue of Queen Victoria. And we had it installed by the Adelaide City Council at like, two o'clock in the morning. They had, they had cherry pickers and council workers attaching this big knitted dress with cable ties to the statue of Queen Victoria. And it was it was so much fun. And it was part like it was around Christmas time. So it was when the whole square was decorated with different things. And just going along, to see that in the middle of the day. And seeing all these people walking past it stopping looking and taking photos of this thing that you'd made. It was just so much fun, because, you know, you're just sort of like sitting there watching everybody else getting so much joy out of this thing that we just did. Yeah, it was it was it was a lot of fun. It was so much fun. Yeah, we did a lot of stuff like that. We've done stuff for Matthew Flinders and Douglas Mawson, one of my friends met him at balaclava. We've done things for the Robert Burns statue at the front of the State Library. Yeah, things like that. There's been lots of stuff that the group has done, and it's just been wonderful. Yes, we haven't doing that. We're still within the group doing stuff now. Um, well, we were going to do a project for Christmas last year, back in November. And I didn't know how to say in a short way, because I don't want to sort of I don't want to sound negative. But we were asked to do a project. And then the street that we were asked to do it on. People on the the people in the street like the business owners decided no, we don't want that. And that was really, that was really sad. And I found that really upsetting because for some of the people in the group that hadn't actually been able to work on anything, as a group or for themselves for a long time, there was a one mom in there, I know that she was, you know, it was really important to her to get together and to do this thing, because she hadn't done anything for herself for a really long time. And so all of a sudden, we had this thing that was really exciting. And we were we were so excited about getting back together and doing something and it was just taken away because of mismanagement and miscommunication. You know, like the person who was organizing the thing and had asked us to do it hadn't spoken to the business owners properly. So all of a sudden, she just sort of like sent me an email one day and said, You know what, sorry, they just don't want you here anymore. And it was devastating. Actually. It was really, it was really sad. Like, I was fine with it, because I had my own stuff to go with. But as I was saying some of some of the group members hadn't hadn't been doing their own thing for a long time. And it was very important to them that we were doing it. And yeah, all of a sudden, it just wasn't there. So yeah, we do we need to get back together and do something because I think, you know, we just had so much fun together. There's no reason that we haven't done anything for a while. I think it's just like the whole COVID thing and people being busy and life getting in the way. So I think yeah, we just we just need to do it. We just, we just really need to Yeah, you know, put a date in the diary and get together and do it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's so much fun. And we do we all work together so well. We just have very different lives in very different directions. And I think that's that's the only thing that kind of makes it a bit tricky sometimes. Yeah, yeah. When you were talking about when you put your pieces up, and then you see people their reaction to that. I get so much joy and I it almost it always makes me feel like a little child even reminds me of like Easter time when when I was a kid and you'd be looking for your Easter eggs and you find them hidden in the garden and that amazing feeling of finding things. That's how I feel when I see people's creations all around the place. I just love it. It's such a beautiful I love it too, because you, I think the reason that I love it so much is because, you know, it is that generosity and that sharing and the joy. But it's also like, it kind of feels a little bit naughty or a little bit not naughty, but like a little bit. You know, people, people being creative outside of the prescribed conventional spaces of institutions and galleries and high end things, it's kind of making things accessible. And it's also like the random accidental thing of finding stuff as well as it's kind of, you know, I'm gonna make this thing and I'm going to put it out there because I can, I'm not going to ask anybody's permission to do it, not going to apply to do it. I'm just going to do it. And I love I love that. It's so it's so much fun. And it's, you know, of course, it's always with the best intentions, but it's also a little bit, you know, it's very empowering actually think it's really empowering. I know it is for me. Yeah, I think it's incredibly generous to because you're not, you're not creating it with any sort of expectation of, I mean, you aren't getting something back. But like, you know, it's not a monetary gain, you're doing it because you love it. And because you know, you're going to bring joy to paper, I think that's just beautiful. I wanted to utilize your expertise as an art historian throughout this discussion, could you just let us know first what the era or the period that you are really drawn to with your art history. So my area of expertise is the 18th century. So that's, that's what I know most, the deepest part of my knowledge and research has always has been the 18th century. Insane. I'm really fascinated and have a really solid understanding of the 20th century as well, because I've studied that in depth too. But also, of course, I'm interested in contemporary art, art of the art that is being made now and the very recent past to and I'm kind of, I don't know, I think researchers, like artists, they develop their interests and their ideas in lots of different directions at the moment and kind of looking more things like iconoclasm as well, which kind of stretches across all periods really iconoclasm for for those who don't know, is the destruction or accidental or intentional of artworks, or buildings and monuments and things like that, too. Yeah. So what drew you to that? It's the 1700s, isn't it? If it's the 18th century, so how it works? Yeah. No, that's cool. And to make things even more confusing, people have different definitions around time periods as well, that so for, for the 18th century, we used to say, oh, you know, that's 1700 to 1800. But the truth is, most people now call it like, referred to that period as the long 18th century. So it's sort of like, T straddles the late 70s, sort of like 1685 1690, through to about 1820. And people kind of debate those precise use, but it does kind of overlap, centuries, either side is 70. Is that because of the work? Was it was the era of that art in that time? Or is that just how historians talk about time periods? It's more around world events and things like that as well. It's not it's not a facade. I mean, the hard thing with art history, whatever period you're looking at, it's, we kind of like to think in nice sort of compartmentalized boxes with nice start and finish points. But the truth is, is that things just overlap. And, and there's not like one linear narrative or style or thing that's happening. There's lots of different things that are happening all at the same time. And we're only really starting to do a better job at recognizing that now. There's multiple histories, and multiple styles and things happening all at the same time. So really history. It's not like this one linear thing. It's like a big spiderweb of, you know, and it's really messy. And that's, that's the thing that makes it really interesting and dynamic, but we're not very good at thinking about things that way. We insist on putting things in nice, neat little categories and everything has to have a neat timeframe. Like it can't be like 1521 to 1673 because that just doesn't feel neat and contained for us. We have this need to contain things, which is crazy because that's not how time Her explore life. I must point out and acknowledge though that that's a very Western way of thinking, like, I'm sure like, I don't have the understanding to talk about this at length, but you know, other cultures and other strange other philosophies or other systems of doing things, think about things in very different ways. So what I'm referring to is, it's a Western perspective. It's not, it doesn't account for everybody, for sure. So within that time period, that long 18th century, what, what drew you to that era, I suppose, like how, why, why that period for you? This goes back to art school. My practice is very, very different to the 18th century, I my my own art practice is radically different. But the reason I was drawn to that is because when we went to when I was in art school, we had to do art history and theory. And we had this lecture in first year, who was very handsome and very charismatic. And everybody hung on every word, he said. And so we went to every lecture thinking, these lectures are amazing, and they're brilliant. And I was one of the fans. I thought he was wonderful. But there was one subject that he did. And it was kind of, I think it was called, like the history of Western art, or something like this. And he started with the caves of Lascaux. And he kind of worked his way through lecture, lecture, the lecture going through the history of Western art. And I remember this one day, he, I can't remember the name of the lecture, but he did the 18th century in one slide. Like I just like, I just have to pause there, because it still blows my mind. It totally blew me away, like, you'd gone. You know, one lecture might have been on surrealism and data, like an entire one hour lecture on surrealism and data, which is a movement in 19, the 1920s, like, you know, a response to the wars and things quite, it's quite a complex movement. But the 18th century, he kind of did this thing where he put up an image by a painter called fraggin, ah, he did a painting called the swing, a put this, this slide up, and I was fresh out of arts, I mean, fresh out of high school, too. So I was very young, I really didn't know very much. And he just put this slide up, and everyone erupted into laughter. And he said, this is like, the 18th century chocolate box fluff and nonsense. That's it. See later, let's jump into the 19th century. And I was just kind of like, I remember sitting there thinking, Why does everybody think this is funny? And why does he just wipe out an entire century with one slide, like, to me, I was like, I had no interest in painting that way, I had no interest in that style from my own work at all. But looking at that painting, I thought, wow, this is actually really, really skilled work. It's really complex. There's all these things happening in that picture. I don't understand what it is. But there's a lot more to this thing. I was just intrigued, absolutely intrigued. And then, you know, I also saw films like Amadeus, and, you know, all the all the period movies and stuff, and I just kind of developed this love for, you know, the 18th and 19th centuries. And then, when I went to study art history, I did four subjects and kept going and, you know, the my love for the 18th century grew. And I was kind of when I came to do my masters. I was like, do I do my Masters on Australian abstraction? Or do I do it on the 18th century, and then I went 18th century because I feel like I know and understand a lot about abstraction, but don't really understand the 18th century enough. So that's what took me that way. And I think it's also because images of that period of very complex nerve, very rich and iconography, which is, you know, the study of signs and symbols to kind of untangle what a pitcher is telling us. And I think that kind of tapped into my love for detective novels, and Agatha Christie and solving the clues. So I think that's what drew me in the most was just, you know, again, fun, lots of fun. And, you know, that period is fascinating, because, so, so much is happening in a very, very short timeframe. When you think about it, so much stuff for life is radically changing. And we've, we've inherited so much of that, you know, bad things as well as good things in within that period of time. There were lots of different movements, or was it the same? Yeah. Yeah. So I'll just very, very quickly tell you that the difference between the 20th century In the age of the long, 18th century, the long 18th century is kind of broken up into three major styles you could argue maybe for. But the 20th century is a very rapid succession of multiple movements. So there's lots of movements all throughout the century, and some of those overlap as well. So, you know, I'd have to sit down and write them down and can't off the top of my head, but lots and lots of movements happening very quickly. So some movements might kind of, you know, be defined by a naysayer decade, but and they resurface and influence other artists as well. So there's lots of overlap. And there's just lots of stuff happening. The 18th century is a century that has been neglected in research and scholarship until up until about the last 10 or 20 years, you know, people just didn't take it very seriously. So there's still a little bit of debate and a little bit like there's a lot of work to be done still. The start of the period, some people refer to as late Baroque, but it's really the Rococo, which is that the very highly decorative style, and then the, from the Rococo, we move into neoclassicism, which is, you know, the more classical austere kind of painting where it's all about heroic virtue, and those kinds of things leading up to the revolution. And then, around the time, like after the revolution, you have a movement called romanticism, which kind of spills over into the 19th century. And that's where you have artists like Turner doing those beautiful images of shipwrecks and storms and things like that. So we're going back to nature and the the power of nature and the sublime and those kinds of things. So it's really like, three year three movements in one century, and they do overlap in some of those artists. So for example, some of the, the artists working the Rococo style, kind of they also, you know, depending on when they were born, and who they were working for, they do kind of creep into the other styles as well. So some of the new classical artists move into romanticism, some of them don't, some of the Rococo artists move into neoclassicism, it really depends on where they are. And I guess that that notion of things have to have a start and finish, it just doesn't work like that things are all overlapping. And, yeah. And it's really formed and shaped by what's happening in the political and social cultural context as well, like, you know, so the easy thing there is like the the revolution, the French Revolution had an enormous impact on artists. So you do see a lot of things happening in the artwork that, you know, as what an art historian does is we look at works that are made in different time periods, and try and understand them in the context that they were made in as well. And that helps us understand what people were concerned by what people were thinking and how lives were lived at that period. Art historians tend to specialize. Like, for example, I specialize in the 18th century, but also look at contemporary art. Also look at modern art, sometimes I look a little bit at the 17th from the 19th. But I couldn't tell you very much about the Byzantine period, for example, there's just so much stuff out there. Art historians, we don't memorize dates and titles of paintings and things because that's connoisseurship. What we do is we look at objects and images as primary sources of material that can tell us it's kind of it's like detective work, you know, historians look at letters and documents and things and to tell the story of a person or what's happening in a period of time. And that's what we're doing with objects and images, where, you know, we're talking about the history of the work and the artist itself, but we're also recognizing it, doesn't it? Nothing is made in a vacuum, like, you know, artists are working in all different kinds of circumstances and political climates. And it really does shape what's being made. And not just visual art, but music and literature as well. Yeah. I mean, I've given very, very short, brief overviews of things. I've felt I have simplified things a lot. But I think, like, for example, when I when I say, you know, that 18th century has been a period that hasn't been as loved up until now, it's very different now. But when I started doing my Masters, people were still dismissing the Rococo, which is like the earliest period of the 18th century, there was some really groundbreaking research happening and the art historian is really fighting for the for that area of the discipline to be taken seriously, and they've done amazing work since but I think, you know, art history, it's like any other discipline, I guess, you know, it is susceptible to fashion you know, sometimes it It's hard to, you know, study an Australian colonial art, you know, I don't know, like it does go through fashion. But I think the 18th century really was quite overlooked. I'm not sure about the other disciplines, but definitely in art history, it was overlooked and not taken very seriously for a long time. That's his, like you said there was so much happening at that time, there was so much going on, and so much changing. And then it's like, oh, we're not actually going to write it. You know what I mean? Well, I can, again, I'll give you a very short answer for that, um, things like neoclassicism and romanticism, which happens later in the century were studied and taken more seriously. Like I, you know, I, like I was saying I did sort of condense what I was saying, and I simplified it a lot. They were taken seriously, much more seriously, for a long time than the first part of the century, which is that period that I refer to, or everyone refers to as the Rococo. And that is, because when we look at and this is, this is why that slide that I mentioned, was laughed at. Because it is so pretty, it is so feminine, it is so over the top decorative, it's ostentatious, it's, you know, it's just the height of frivolous for some people. And, you know, people kind of look at that, and the thing Oh, that's so ridiculously chocolate box, which is exactly what the lecturer said, like, there's, it's all feminine, decorative nonsense, there's no substance to it. And in that period of time, you know, women were powerful patrons, and they were really helping to shape fashion. And so, you know, sadly, because there were so many women involved, it was denigrated as fluff and nonsense, and it's totally not, like, once you start researching and looking at those images properly, and like looking at the culture in the social context of the period, it was enormously sophisticated and very, very progressive. Um, but, you know, historic later historians, you know, sort of later, later, from the 19th century, in particular, kind of looked back on that time and said, Oh, it's, it's all just feminine. You know, let's look at the stuff that's much more serious. And, you know, much more interesting, because, you know, it's about war. You know, the forces of nature and exploration and things, which is, of course, fascinating. But that's, that's really why people didn't take the early period of the 18th century. Seriously, for a long time. Yeah, because it was too feminine. Isn't that lovely? Yeah, it's just about flowers and puppies, you know, but there's a lot there's so much more. That's hilarious. Yeah, and it's a very simplistic view, because, of course, they're really looking at, you know, paintings and fashion and things. But, you know, the Rococo, you have to look at what was happening in, you know, maths and architecture, like there is that period of the Rococo period, and that style, that movement informed mathematics. I don't understand how that is, but it does. I'm not a mathematician, but I have read that it informed architecture and garden design and, you know, philosophy. It's incredibly rich period, the artists were talking to, you know, writers and philosophers and musicians, they were all generating and exchanging ideas and these really amazing communities. Yeah, like you said, before the community having people together, and yeah, bouncing ideas off of each other. So we briefly briefly touched on the involvement of women in that era, during that time were women painting, or were they more, like you said, the patrons of that era. So this is really this is really, really interesting. So both in that period of time, you know, the, I'm trying to think of how to make this a short story, not a very long one. So, in that period of time, women, I've got to be careful how I say this, because I'm not saying women were completely liberated from, you know, systems of patriarchal oppression because they certainly weren't. But women with money and power became very influential patrons. So one patron in particular, I'll give you one example Madame de Pompadour or was the king's favorite. She was a woman from a middle class background, she worked her way up. And she became a very, very influential patron of the arts. And she was a very good friend to artists and philosophers, musicians, scientists, she was an intellectual woman. And she held her own salons. And she, yeah, she patronized, you know, she, she commissioned artists to, and not just visual artists, but all kinds of artists to make work for her. And so that kind of patronage was really, really important to artists, you know, in sustaining their careers and their incomes, but also in shaping the visual culture of the time as well. And so yes, women with money and power and privilege, were definitely heavily involved in shaping the visual culture. For artists, female artists, this is where it gets a little bit tricky. There were some really, and I'll use the word exceptional. And some some art historians do use that term, too. There were exceptional art, women artists who had the support to train in, you know, studios that have their brothers or their fathers, for example. And at that time, women weren't allowed to go into the academies, except for a couple of women that we call the exceptional women. So for example, Angelica Kauffman, and Elizabeth Vichy LeBron, were two examples of female artists who worked in like they entered, they were permitted entry into the French Academy. And they became very successful artists. And they worked for the crown. And for example, LeBron and Kaufman, they worked for the Queen's at the time as well, for Marie Antoinette. And so they were very good friends of very powerful people. But that was quite rare. It wasn't, it wasn't as common. It was, it was much. No, I think, I think the thing about being a woman artists at that time was, you know, you really needed to have the support of men around you, like you needed to, you know, have, especially early in your life, because you sort of started training, as a child, or as a very young adult, you really needed to have access to a studio. And that was really out of the reach for females, unless you had a brother or a father, you might have been helping them make their work in the studio and have access to materials, someone might look at what you were doing, and say that's really, that's really great, we're going to try and get you some teaching, they might go and work with another artist and you know, gain some more skills. But the process is much more difficult for a female to become a professional academic painter. There were also other artists who, and this is where it gets. Again, I don't I don't want to go on and on too much, because it's not an art history lesson. But there were other artists who worked in pastels, for example, they didn't do the traditional academic painting, they use pastels to make beautiful images of flowers and portraits and things. And some of those women were working very independent of the academy. And that's how they sort of sustained their practice. But they weren't considered professional in the same way that the members of the academy and the painters to the Crown were. So you had different groups, I guess the thing was, gaining entry into the academy was that you had to, you had to sort of like, do a whole heap of training and learning first, but then to enter into the academy, you had to paint what they what we call an academy reception piece. So it was always like it had to be a grand painting. With a mythological or historical subject matter. It couldn't be a portrait or a landscape. It had to be like a religious work or something like that. And then that was judged and if that was good enough, then they could enter into the academy. But when I shouldn't say too, when I say exceptional for the women, it wasn't just that they were exceptionally talented or exceptionally good. What I mean by that is that women like Angelica Kauffman, for example, she she was very successful. She was an independent professional artist. She was considered exceptional, not just because of her talent, but the fact that she was a woman. You know, it's like, women aren't really supposed to be good at these things. Women are, you know, the too imaginative. They're too irrational and emotional to be doing work. In the same capacity as men, right? Well, because because she's a woman, she's exceptional. And it's a heartbreaking thing to say like, and I still I find that really difficult because you know, in that period women, like Pompadour, for example, she was the king's favorite she was a powerful patron she was an intellectual she, she was also a printmaker, she was doing all these amazing things. She was, she was, of course, very, very powerful and privileged because of the position she was in. But she was also someone who came from a middle class background and worked her way up. But these, these women were standout figures. And we we call them exceptional, because that's not that's not the normal life of a woman in that period like that they are elite women. And even even when you do have privilege behind you, you're still you still have to go the extra mile to, you know, advance yourself and to prove your capacity more than your male counterparts. Do, you know, you have to work harder to get there and to keep that position. As you it's really, because men and women were considered to be completely opposite, like men were the rational creatures capable of higher thinking and academic pursuit and women were nurturers and mothers and imaginative creatures prone to hysteria, things like that. Let's see exactly how they spoke about them. You know, women, women had the creative impulse, but they're also too imaginative and emotional to sort of harness those qualities into our interior rational way to make something more, more worthy of the academy, for example, I don't really know how to explain it. It's, yeah, they couldn't harness all of that stuff that creative people have, in a way that was balanced and reasoned enough to achieve, you know, a great work of art. Yes, it's like the eyes of men. Yeah, in the eyes of men. And so that's an even in art criticism, like, we do have documents where art critics are saying, oh, you know, this particular artists would be much better, you know, doing their paper flower cutouts, because they were looking at crafting. And this is where our denigration of craft comes from, too. That's associated with the feminine stuff. So they're kind of I don't know, you're not really good enough to be a professional painter, just go into your crafty stuff instead, you know, is that hierarchy? It's very gendered? Yeah. I think that we are getting better at that. But I think that kind of does still persist, sometimes. So these women that you talk about that went to the academy, where they mothers as well. This is where I'm not, I don't know a lot about their biography. I know that LeBron had one daughter, and I think her name was Xian. And she actually appears in lots of her portraits. I don't know their story very well, I think. I think this little girl was in lots of portraits. And so she would have been very close to her mother at that time. But for some reason, I think, later in life, their relationship kind of disintegrated. I'm not really sure why. But you know, she was her mother was painting her, so she was subject matter. And there are, of course, other artists, especially in the 20th century, who have used and postmodern period as well, who have used their children as part of their artworks. Yeah. Is that something I'm really interested in? Is that that this challenge between their work and their role as a mother, is that something that women artists have faced in the past? I mean, I'm sure that it can you say you can you say it in the work? Or does it come out in the work or is it? Is it something that you've you can research? That makes sense? There's the Oh, wow. It's like, you know, there's so many different ways of being an artist, and there's so many different ways of being a woman in so many different ways of being a mother. So I think, like, for example, Barbara Hepworth, I'm just pulling out examples as I think of them. Barbara Hepworth was a sculptor and her work is quite abstract, but I know that she, she really considered being a mother integral to her practice. I don't know a lot about her work, but I know that she did consider her children to be as, like very influential on her like she loved being a mother and she thought that was really important to her practice, but also know that there are lots of artists like feminist artists who would have loved to have children but didn't have children because they knew having children would have a big, like a detrimental impact. on their career, so there are artists who have consciously made the choice not to have children. Louise Bush was another artist and nothing she had five children. She, again thrived on being a mother, I'm not sure how that shaped her practice for her. But there's another artists birth Maura, so an impressionist artist, and her daughter is, again, provide subject matter for her. We have lots of images where you see her daughter making an appearance. And I think she, I think her daughter was a model for other artists as well. So in, in lots of ways children have been subject matter for artists. In other ways, they've just, you know, I suppose, been around and provided their mums with energy. And, you know, I don't Yes, it's fair, it's very different for all artists, I think. I have friends who are mothers and artists now and I know, a couple of them motherhood is a very, like, it's a central theme in their practice. And their work is very specifically about motherhood and about their children. So I think I kind of get the sense that it's easier to make that kind of artwork now than it has been, like in the early modern period, for example. Yeah, the other thing I wanted to say, too, is just going back to the early modern period, there's lots of artists. This is another thing that's really sad. There's lots of other artists who are very, very good painters, but a lot of their work has been lost or destroyed. So a lot of their work we just don't even know, we don't have record of and there are other artists working in the Baroque and Renaissance periods, for example, where their workers that we were starting to learn now their work has been mis attributed to male artists. Ah, so there's a lot of stuff we just don't know yet. Hopefully, we do uncover more. But, you know, there are other artists who are very prolific, and then they have children, and, you know, their career finishes, or slows down, or some artists have been fortunate enough to have husbands who were very, very supportive and have nurtured their careers, other artists. I can't remember her name. Now. I read this in passing the other day. She was a composer. She was forbidden to practice by her husband when she had children. So she just stopped. And I think I'm trying to think of her name. It's just escaped me, which is really terrible. She was associated with the Bauhaus artist. So I think what happened with her is she stopped practicing. But it took over a period of years, it took her an enormous toll on her health and well being. And for some reason, I think her husband was convinced, actually, no, you need to let her do her work again. And so she did do some work before she died. But she lost a lot of time. Yeah. Well, that's what her name was. I have, I'll have to go back through the book that I was reading the other day and find her name for you if you're interested. Because she's Yeah, composer. I think her husband, I'm not sure if he was an artist, but he was definitely associated with the Bauhaus school, which is designers and artists in Germany. Yeah, I don't. It's just something that I came across the other day. I don't know very much about that about her. But that just kind of really struck me. Yeah. Yeah. terribly sad. So I think there's a lot more we could we could say, but it hasn't been written and recorded or research yet or hasn't been found yet or it's been raised. Yeah. In terms of your identity, as a mother, I asked my guests this question about, I do the air quotes, is it important to you to be more than just a mom and I say just a mom, because I know that's not a correct statement? Is it important for you to keep that identity and not become mum? Just mum? Absolutely. Um, for me, it's vital. And I think, again, as I was saying earlier, I think that's a really big part of my mental health. You know, being an artist, I guess is at the core of my identity. And I think it always has been, but also in terms of my children looking at me, I think, you know, it's important for both of them, not just my daughter, but for my son to to see that, you know, women, even in their roles as mothers and nurtures they're multifaceted multi dimensional beings and, you know, we have our own interest, not just career or art was have our own likes and dislikes and responses to things, we have our own feelings around stuff. You know, things impact us as much as they impact someone else would we hold everything together, but we need to be looked after as well. And sometimes we need to look after ourselves. And you know, that's critical. It's absolutely critical. And, you know, one day, we're not going to be doing the, the, the intense hands on mothering where our children are so dependent on us, they're going to go and live their own lives. And, you know, they need to, they need to acknowledge that we have our own lives going on as well. And we need to acknowledge that we need to take that we need to hold on to that. Because otherwise, you know, there's so much I think there's so much potential loss, if you don't, hold on, hold on to something for yourself. And I can't imagine what that would be like. Yeah, and I also feel like, as a, as a mother, myself, I never wanted to be that authoritarian, just just mum kind of person, I want it to be a friend, I want it to be someone that they would, you know, feel comfortable coming to want to have around later on in life. And they're doing their own thing, too. You know, I don't want to just be the mum who does everything for everybody. I want to be the person who is counted on as a friend as well. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's motherhood Being a mother is a multi dimensional thing. It's not just you do the shopping and the cooking and the cleaning, taking the kids to school, changing the nappies. It's much more than that. Like, there's, there's a whole unique, amazing individual underneath all of that. And that person still needs to live. Like, you know, and they need to, they need to thrive like everybody else does. Yeah, it's important, obviously, important to you, for your children to say that in you to recognize Yeah, yeah. Because otherwise, they're not getting the best of me. And I know, of course, there are days, they're not getting the best of me because I'm tired and worn out. And I haven't given myself enough time or something. But that's my responsibility. Right? Like, you know, I can't, I was saying to my cousin who's a single father the other day, he's really struggling, being a single dad in lockdown sometimes. And I said to him, like, if you don't, if you don't put self care at the top of your list, you can not be the best dad for your child. Long term. You can't sustain it like, you do have to look after yourself. Yeah, whatever. And that looks different for everybody. Yeah, no, but let's see. Yeah, absolutely. I really value the stay at home mum, as well, as much as I do the working mom, you know, I think we've got to be careful of, not sort of, I worry sometimes that we diminish the role that mums have if they choose to opt out of a career because they want to stay at home. I think that's a really powerful, meaningful, valuable thing to do. I think that's incredible. I know that I'm not capable of that. But also know that mums who are doing that, even if they're not working in a job that's paid and acknowledged, it's more important for them to maintain a sense of their identity, because, you know, otherwise, there's a danger of losing themselves in that. And then when their kids leave, like I was saying, what's left, you know, they need to have something that's just for them for themselves. Do you know what being a mum is? bloody difficult. It's probably one of the hardest jobs in the whole world. It is the hardest job in the whole world. For lots of different reasons. I think like it's, it's incredibly tough. And I think yeah, like I was saying, I think doing the stay at home mom thing is the toughest gig of all and I know that I'm not capable of that. I have an immense admiration for people who are doing that. They deserve everything, they deserve all the credit and they deserve that timeout and they deserve being looked after and acknowledged and honored and supported and I worry that they don't get that enough. I worry that even as women we don't give them that enough so I guess then that sort of leads me into the the concept of mum guilt. I think after you know, after the podcast that you're doing, I think you're becoming the expert on this. So I would love to know what you think on that. I think you know what I think I know that I've definitely suffered mother guilt for a different reason. There's a couple of strands of thinking here that I've got. So I think the whole thing with mum do I think, is reflective of a deeply patriarchal society that we live in. And what I'm going to say is I don't think that it's, and I'm trying to be careful about how I word this. I don't think it's necessarily men who are telling us to feel guilty. I feel like we're doing that to each other. I feel like I'll give you an example of this. When I, when I had my children, I was super, super lucky. I was able to breastfeed really easily, like I had absolutely no problem, I loved it. And it was, it was just like, falling away, oh, when my cousin had a child, not long after, and she found it incredibly difficult to breastfeed. She tried everything she could think of. And she was in agony. And I don't really know the particulars, but I know she really, she gave it a good crack. And she ended up having her her baby bottle fed and this nose. So this is like 18 years ago, too. It's not like yesterday. So I need to say things are changing. But, you know, the pressure and the judgment and the criticism that she got for that choice came from other women. And she really struggled with that guilt for a long time of like, I can't feed my child, the way everyone's telling me I should be. I'm not a good mom. And I'm like that, that is, to me, one of the most damaging things that we can do, is judging each other and not supporting each other. I think living in a patriarchal society means that if you're socialized as a heteronormative, woman, or girl, you're also taught that we're in competition with each other in lots of different ways. And I think that comes out in motherhood too. Like, if your child isn't sleeping all the way through at six weeks, you're doing something wrong. If you take a day home by yourself, and you're not working, you're doing something wrong. If you can't breastfeed, you're doing something wrong. If you don't give birth, naturally, you're doing something wrong. So I think I really feel like certainly for me, that's where a lot of guilt initially came from. I don't really do that anymore. Like, sometimes I kind of struggle with putting myself first like I bang on about that all the time. But I'm not always very good at doing that. But you know, my guilt, or my shame, I shouldn't say shame came from experiencing postnatal depression with my son. You know, I felt such shame for that. Because I really, at that time, I don't believe it anymore. But at that time, I really felt like I wasn't a good mom. And you know, and I think the other thing is, it's not always what we say to women is what we don't say to women, you know, we at that time, I know it's different. Now, I know it's changing. But at that time, people weren't really talking about postnatal depression, and I was terrified. I thought, you know, what, if I tell my doctor that something's not right, I think they might say that I don't deserve to have my child. Like, you know, I was honestly I was, I was petrified. And then, when things kind of settled down for me, and I was on medication, I just had that overwhelming shame. Like, I'm not good enough. I'm not doing I'm not doing a good enough job. Like, I'm not as amazing as that lady over there with her five kids is, you know, like, was so in love with this little baby, but I couldn't get it right. And something was wrong, and I couldn't understand it. So I think, yeah, I think that's the closest that I've really had to that full on mom guilt. And I just kind of feel like, we need to do more as women to encourage and support each other. But talk about and this is why I think your podcast is so amazing. We need to share all the crap stuff because there's so much crap stuff. And I'm sorry, being a mom is amazing. And it's an honor, it's a privilege, but there is so much crap in it. There's so much stuff that there's so much stuff that hurts there's so much stuff that's ugly and demoralizing and upsetting. And so many so many things that other people just don't understand. But you know, we need to at least acknowledge it and we need to, we need to tell our own children. You know what? Childbirth isn't easy. And it's okay, if you feel like shit after you've had your child like it's okay. Like all of these things are okay. And it's normal and a million other people are doing it too. Because it's so and you know, like I I learned so much from that experience, and I think it's, it's certainly taught me things so that hopefully I can be a much more empathetic ache mother friend, whoever I need to be for someone else, you might go through that. But, you know, like, there's so much unnecessary suffering and all that. It's, I don't know, I just kind of remember how confusing it all was too, because I desperately wanted my son like, he was a baby I literally prayed for, like, you know, I wasn't interested in becoming a mother for the longest time. And all of a sudden, I desperately wanted and wanted to have this baby. And he didn't come for a while. And then when he did come, and then I had him and I was looking at his eyes, I was absolutely honestly, had never felt such love. But at the same time, I was petrified out of my mind. And I was really sad and anxious. I felt like oh, my God, I've, I'm going to break this thing, I'm going to do something wrong. And then the more I plummeted into that, anxiety and depression, I thought, if I say anything to anybody, they're gonna take my baby. Like, though, in the very, very early days before I told my doctor, I thought someone's going to take him away from me. And I think that's why I didn't say anything. Of course, I didn't want to be judged. I did talk to my parents about it. I talked to, you know, my son's grand grandmother about it as well, very early on. And they're the ones who actually kind of steered me over to the doctor to get some medication. Thank goodness, because I wasn't in a very good way. So and, you know, that, yeah, it takes a really long time to get your head around that and a really long time to, to say those words. But there's so important. And I think this is another reason why I think your podcast is so immensely valuable, because I think if someone had just said to me, 18 years ago, it will be okay. And you were going to do great. And you're going to do all these other things, too. I think they would have made a big difference. And you're not a bad mom, and you're an amazing Mum, you just need a little bit of support like everyone does. So yeah, thank goodness, I think I think things are changing. I think we are starting to talk about mental mental health in the mainstream. Much more than we did, but yeah, geez. First time mother. That's crippling. It's really crippling. But again, I think, you know, I think there's a, there's a, there's a real depth of knowledge and wisdom that comes from that experience two things. I didn't have postnatal depression with my daughter at all. I had the postnatal depression with my son. And that was a very traumatic birth. And I think, yeah, maybe it was a PTSD thing. The I think the reason maybe I didn't have postnatal depression with my daughter is because I said, I'm not doing that. Again, I'm having this as Aryan thanks. Because, you know, I sustained some injuries and things as well. And like that was that was quite an ordeal for me. And I think because I made that decision early that might have had a bit of an impact. But I remember with my son too, like, there were nights, but I just didn't sleep. And I think that's that's the thing, you know, that was a big thing. I just did not sleep and not not because he was a bad sleeper, but I literally couldn't sleep. And I remember one of the nurses who came to the house to check in on me and stuff. She said to me, oh, when you can't sleep, why don't you just use that time to do your painting? And I was just like, I can't because I literally was paralyzed. I felt sometimes like I was paralyzed. And yeah, that's a really hard space to be in and being creative. I couldn't read a book. Like I honestly couldn't read a book. So I think to create work when you're in that space is I think it's probably impossible. It's like you barely functioning. It's like having a shower was just like, wow, this big achievement. Yep, absolutely. When you say it now, it seems like so unreal. But well, the energy that that takes is incredible. Like, yeah, it's something that you just can't be understated how, how debilitating that is and how we really need to support people who are in that I was gonna say I've always been very opinionated. And having that experience on these kinds of issues has made me even more opinionated and more vocal. And, you know, sometimes I get quite angry. And I think because it's like, yeah, I know what that's like. But you know, that to go back to that thing about the breastfeeding thing? Yeah, I had an awesome experience, I had an awesome pregnancy. But when I hear about someone who's not having that same experience, and who's really struggling and are being judged and criticized for become equally passionate about that, because I'm like, This is not okay. Like, you know, we need to be supportive of each other, especially women, we need to be supportive of each other, whatever our experiences and choices are, whether that's around motherhood, birth career, or not, whatever that looks like, whatever our choices are, we really need to, you know, support that. I think that's the most powerful thing we can do. That's interesting, by the way, that judgment? Yeah, it's interesting. Why do we judge each other like that? Like, is it because Is it is it going back to Days of having to compete for the affections of men or something? So you put other women down? So it makes you look better? Like, is it? Why do we do? I'm not, I'm not really I don't really know. But I have, I have read that in a patriarchal culture, like a Western patriarchal culture, women are socialized to be in competition with each other. And we are kind of socialized to think that there's limitations on resources and, you know, limitations on access to men and all of these kinds of crazy things. Like if you want to, you know, I mean, it goes back into history to like, you look way back into history, like it was really important to be engaged by a particular time in your life. And if you weren't engaged and married, it was a serious problem, you know, and so people, like, even if you watch Jane Austen Oh, yeah, there's always threads, you know, women are in competition with each other, because they want to get the best pick of the of the man to have them, you know, to validate who they are, as women and people in society, it's crazy. I think we've been doing that for a very long time. And not just not just around men, I think, you know, just as we frame ourselves as women in relation to each other and our positions in society, we might not think that consciously, but I think that's embedded in our collective consciousness or something somewhere, it's like, you know, a baby cries. And we have that no one says, When your baby cries, you have to do the thing you are compelled, like, your, your urge is to go out and check your baby, pick it, pick the baby up and do particular things. Because that's what you're built to do. And I think there are, I mean, we're animals, I think these things are so deeply embedded in our primal brain and our collective consciousness and all those things that I'm not familiar, like, I don't have enough knowledge on that. But I think that's got a big part to do with it. But I think we, you know, we're acknowledging it and talking about it. So hopefully, that's a really big step in starting to dismantle some of that stuff. In all of the things that I've said, I should also, you know, definitely point out that in all the the competitiveness and things that we've been talking about, there are some amazing communities that you find that you do find for yourself, where you do get that support, and that friendship, which is absolute gold. And, you know, for me, I've found that with two, two women when my son went to kindy. So it took me took me a long time to find that, but, you know, I've maintained those friendships for the last 14 years now, and I always will, you know, it's incredible. What we've, you know, the friendship that we've given to each other this whole time, it's unconditional, you know, like, it's it. Yeah, it's really unconditional. So there is there is all of that richness and beauty there, too. But, yeah, I really like it, if that became the norm, like if that was the biggest story, and the other things that we that we've been discussing were, you know, rare incidents. We can talk about, you know, what in history that used to happen, and yeah, exactly. The you know, what you're saying now to about the competitiveness thing, I actually get such a thrill. I'm always so excited when I see anybody regardless of gender, or whether or not there a mum or dad. I get such a kick out of seeing people take their own initiative and do their own stuff and make their own things happen. And so, yeah, I'd like to tell you that You know that you're taking your own initiative to do this podcast. When I, when I first found out about it, I was so excited about it because I thought, wow, this is, this is something that you're doing. It's your own project because you care about it. And it's meaningful, and it's, you know, sustaining you, it's wonderful, but you're also giving such a gift to so many people. So well done. That is a fair, that's a very, very long way away from being competitive. That's, that's incredibly generous. And it's really wonderful to see. Thank you. That's very kind of you. Okay, it's exciting. It's wonderful. And and you know, what, it's actually a really brave thing to do to, to do a podcast and to share and, you know, to talk to people about all this kind of stuff. I'm at the moment, I'm taking some time out to experiment and explore in my practice, because this year already I've had working for exhibitions. And I've been teaching and studying as well. So I'm sort of on a little bit of a, like, I've got little bits of paid work happening. But in terms of exhibitions and stuff for the rest of the year, I don't have anything on the go. At the moment, I'm just taking this time to play with ideas and materials in my studio, and have a bit of a break to probably for exhibition. Yeah, oh my gosh, though, they were amazing. But because of COVID, it meant that some exhibitions were pushed forward. And all it was all just in the timing. So, you know, three exhibitions, were pretty much back to back. And to two exhibitions that I had opened in the one week, that was pretty intense. It was pretty intense. And so it was kind of like, Yes, I need time to recover. I also need time to just play. Like, I just need to play with my materials. And I've already I've already got ideas for my next series of work, but I just want to explore the potential of different techniques and materials at the moment. Um, to kick that off, we then just take a bit of a breather you know, Oh, tell you something really funny. I'll never forget this. When I was doing my PhD, I had to, I was doing full time study. And then I had to go down to part time and stuff. So my PhD took a little bit longer than I thought it would. And I remember my son said to me, one day, see that little girl walking around over there. And that was my daughter. He said, that's your PhD. Because I, when I was doing my PhD, six months in, I fell pregnant, I didn't realize that this was going to happen, fell pregnant, and I had my daughter and I'm still doing my PhD when she was like, three. You know, I kind of submitted not that long after but he was like, there's your PhD running around over there, mom, and I'm like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It was and it was quite startling, because you already knew like I was when he said that I was sort of like in the process of winding it all up. And you know, I was on the homestretch. But he was like, there she is. A PhD. That is gone. Yeah, it's like, making visible the the length that it has taken me to do this thing. Yeah. And all the effort that you've put into here, rather than the PhD. It's just yeah. That is hilarious. Thank you very much, Melanie. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on. I've thoroughly enjoyed our chat and all the best with everything you've got coming up. Thank you so much, Alison, and congratulations on a fantastic podcast and wish you all the best for the future in this fantastic project that you have. It's been really fun talking to you today. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much, Allison.

Wedding Reviews Alison, it was a honour and privilege to have you sing on our special day. I couldn't have imagined anyone else to share our day with us. Alison is amazing and you definitely won't be disappointed. -Jess, happy Bride Alison sang at our wedding and was it absolutely beautiful. She is very professional, organised and went above and beyond for our special day. We try and catch her when she is singing around town as it always guarantees to be a great day - Tennille, happy Bride I first heard Alison sing on the night my now husband proposed to me. She was singing for a function at the Lakes Resort Restaurant, Mt Gambier. My husband and I loved the tunes and the atmosphere and I knew this was what I wanted my guest to experience on my own wedding day. Alison has such a marvellous voice I can still hear her singing “my song” A thousand years by Christina Perri to this day. My guests were blown away with her beautiful voice and I commend her for creating a magical ceremony.I would whole heartedly recommend Alison for any function or wedding as she is the “finishing touch.” Claire & James Buckley Alison recently sang at our wedding and it was absolutely beautiful to listen to her. She is incredibly talented and so friendly and easy going. Thank you again Alison for being part of our special day - Siobhan, happy Bride Alison is a professional, fun and flexible performer, with significant experience in helping couples set the soundtrack to their special day. I've loved working with Alison and highly recommend her calm and adaptable approach to delivering a professional and entertaining service at any venue. Tim Gerritsen—Pianist/Organist Alison performed at our wedding in 2009. The addition of live music meant that our songs were arranged by Alison in styles that we loved. Alison's professionalism saw this part of the day run smoothly, and we didn't need to worry about any part of this, including the volume or the quality of the sound. We would highly recommend Alison's singing to add a personalised and special touch to your wedding day, or any event. Emma and John Anderson

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More reviews Alison's kind and gentle nature made it easy to share these sometimes difficult conversations. Leah Franklin I've been listening to your podcasts and I love your interview style. You're natural, warm and have a good sense of humour! Rebeccza McMartin Congratulations on creating such a brilliant resource for creative parents!! What an honour to be a small part of it. Love what you’re building here. Georgia Fields You know, we have International Women's Day where you know, everyone posts on their social media, how good it is to support women. But you're an example of someone actually actively doing that. And I have a lot of respect for that and very grateful for the opportunity to join in with the fantastic work you're doing. Fleur Harris Powerful conversation with a healthy dose of fun. I do enjoy your style! The best! Bianca Morra Alison is a truly compassionate host who genuinely wants to have conversations that will have a positive impact on moms everywhere. She asks thought provoking and powerful questions to explore the good, bad and the ugly of motherhood, and to normalize the issues that challenge us. And she's not afraid to say that she doesn't have it all figured out, which I just LOVE! Lisa Sugarman I am so thankful for the work The Art of Being a Mum is doing for the art and parenting community. Mercedes Rodgers What you do is wonderful. I think what you're doing is so significant. And it's so important. And I'm so happy to be here and to talk to you. Shweta Bist It was such a pleasure talking with you and I would love to again anytime. You're a gem! Charlotte Condie What an absolute honour to speak with Alison, Alison has such a beautiful way of interviewing and is a beautiful soul. Carmen Bliss I have enjoyed your podcast so much. I’ve realized that unlike many other interviewers you don’t take over the interviews and make it all about yourself... you allow your guest to tell their stories. Louise Tye It was a pleasure chatting with you, you are so easy to talk to. Dr Melanie Cooper Such an amazing experience to be a part of! Thank you for allowing me to talk so openly, without judgement. It is so important to continue our creative journeys. Pariya Ziakas Thanks Alison you made that so comfortable. You are excellent at what you do. - Bianca Richardson Thank you for having me on your brilliant show. Katherine Collette I truly had a great time talking to you. You are very easy to talk to !! Daneille Kloberdanz I truly had a great time talking to you. You are very easy to talk to !! Daneille Kloberdanz

Singer, songwriter and mum of 2 Alison Newman chats to artists, musicians, writers and other creatives about what it is like being a mother - and being an artist. Juggling the day to day, retaining your identity, how their work is influenced by motherhood, "mum guilt", the pros, the cons and everything in between Be inspired by artistic + creative mothers who are passionate about continuting their work, no matter what. Latest Article READ HERE About Me ... and the changes Hi there I'm Alison, its so great to have you here! I'm a mum of 2 boys and a singer/ songwriter, so I know first hand how challenging it can be to balance your role as a mother with the intense need to create. I started this podcast to reach out to other creative mums, in a time of my own crisis, to see how they were handling things, but since then it has turned into so much more. The aim now being - to encourage mothers to see the value in their creating and to try to support them to know that they are not alone - challenge cultural norms and break down a few patriarchal stereotypes along the way. Recently, in May 2023 I my work hours changed, and I knew I wouldn't have the time or the capacity to continue the podcast each week as I have since July 2021, Instead of giving up my labour of love, I looked at how else I could do things, and I started a written interview series in June 2023. From time to time you will still see podcasts pop up, Id o have time to do a couple every month, but you'll enjoy reading about the amazing creative mothers we have in our societies, all around the world. Never miss an episode - SUBSCRIBE to my newsletter Email First Name Last Name Join Our Mailing List Thanks for subscribing! Would you like to be a guest? Email Your name Tell me a bit about yourself and what you create, ages of children, etc ... Send Thanks for submitting! I will be in touch soon x Get a taste of Alison's new album WOLF which she is currently working on. Branding + logo design by “This feels like the podcast version of Rachel Power’s book The Divided Heart and I think it’s what we need.” Katherine Collette - author and podcaster "We have International Women's Day where everyone posts on their social media how good it is to support women. But Alison is example of someone actually actively doing that. And I have a lot of respect for that and very grateful for the opportunity to join in with the fantastic work she's doing." Fleur Harris - illustrator and designer "Alison has a charming and disarming interview style. This makes for a podcast that proves to be a great companion, throughout its entended library of interviews." Steve Davis - podcaster, critic, comedian and educa tor.

Fiona Valentine Melbourne artist + artist business coach S2 Ep54 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes ) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Fiona Valentine, a visual artist + a business coach for artists based in Melbourne, Victoria, and a mother of 2. Fiona grew up a creative child, her mother enjoyed drawing, she was influenced by her, she received her first oil paint set at the age of 12, and she did some training in high school to hone her skills in oils and drawing. After high school finished, Fiona took a trip overseas. It was during this trip that she met her her husband and her life took on a whole new adventure. At 23 years of age Fiona found herself with a new baby, living in a mud hut in Niger in Africa. She put her art aside, feeling that in light of the poverty and suffering around her, that it felt frivolous, it didn't seem like it had a place. This was a decision she has since regretted. During her 30s Fiona was back in Australia, with 2 children. She then realised how crucial her art was to her life balance, she taught herself watercolour and acrylic. She delved into training, joining the Australian Guild of Realist Artists. The life changing training she received lead her to share her love of artwork and to become a business coach for artists. Fiona credits her deep relationship with God as a huge support in the time where she delved back into her creativity. We chat today about how finding your creativity can enhance other parts of your life, creating new neural pathways in your brain, finding new ways to create and looking at things differently. **This episode contains discussions around post natal depression, autism + Asperger's syndrome** Connect with Fiona website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website What is a lean specialist? Kate Northrup book "Do Less" Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the bonding people as the traditional owners of the land which his podcast is recorded. Thank you so much for joining me. My guest this week is Fiona Valentine, vas a visual artist and a business coach for artists based in Melbourne, Victoria, and she's a mom of two. Fiona grew up as a creative child. Her mother enjoyed drawing. She was influenced by her and received her first oil paint set at the age of 12. She did some training in high school to hone her skills in oils and drawing. After High School finished, Fiona took a trip overseas. It was during this trip that she met her husband and her life took on a whole new adventure. At 23 years of age, Fiona found herself with a newborn baby living in a mud house in New Year in Africa. She put aside her art, feeling that in light of the poverty and suffering around her, then it felt frivolous. It didn't seem like he had a place. This was a decision that she has since regretted. During her 30s Fiona was back in Australia with two children. She then realized how crucial her art was to her life balance. She taught herself watercolors and acrylics. She delved into training, joining the Australian guild of real estate artists. The life changing training she received led her to share her love of artwork, and to become a business coach for artists. Fiona credits her deep relationship with God as a huge support in the time where she delves back into her creativity. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression, autism and Asperger's syndrome. The music you'll hear today is from Australian New Age ambient music trio lmJ which features myself my sister Emma Anderson, and her husband John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Lovely to meet you. Lovely to meet you too nice to meet somebody who's podcasting on this continent. Oh whereabouts are you? I'm in Melbourne. Our lovely my mum was born in Altona that down at the beachside suburb. So it's been a lot of time going to Melbourne over the years. So yeah, we my sister was born in Adelaide. So while our family were there, so we've been done the South Australia Victoria. Have you gone through Mount Gambier much on your way? Between there you go the the upwards upwards route? Well, we were actually in Moogerah for a few years. So we often also between Algeria and Adelaide. Yeah, I've done that. And yeah, I don't I don't think we went through Mount Gambier very often. Is that where you are? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm getting an amount. Yep. Not many people like that. I talked to on you know, Mount Gambier at all. So I know people have lived there, but I don't think I've ever actually been there. Yeah. Okay, I was born here. But I've lived all over. I grew up pretty nomadic childhood. And I lived in like four countries. The first five years I was married. We've been settled in the same street in Melbourne for nearly 20 years now, which is great. That would be really hectic, like moving like countries, little line moving, you know, towns moving countries. Yeah, you get good at it. You probably wouldn't like want to accumulate too much stuff, either. Because you sort of, you know, when you go next place, you'd be like, Oh, I don't want to take too much baggage, I suppose. Yeah, you learn. You don't want to have to carry too much with you. But you also learn to I think that objects are they have a sacredness about them and you can't just clear out everything because they hold our stories. And you want to take some of that familiarity and comfort with you even in an overseas move, which gets trickier because you have to weigh everything Tell us about yourself. You're watercolor artists and you are an art coach as well can you share sort of how you got into painting like growing up what you was, was that sort of your main art form of there any influences how you got into it, I really, I just always enjoyed the idea of being creative. And painting and drawing. Were very interesting to me. My mom was really supportive. And she liked to sketch and I still have my first oil paint box that she bought me when I was 12. And I got some really good training, when I was in high school, living in the country, just a really tiny school. But we did some courses on drawing and watercolor. So I got some good skills early on, which was really helpful. And then later I had, I worked with an artist who taught us how to draw from little still life settings and things like that gave me a bit of oil painting, tuition, but then I didn't really do a whole lot with it. I went overseas after high school. And I thought I was going on a six month trip to teach kids to read. And the trip got extended, I met my husband, we got married here in Australia and went back overseas. So my life took a little bit different path than I thought it was going to. And so I found myself with a new baby in a madhouse in Africa, thinking that my creativity felt really self indulgent and frivolous. And I made a really bad decision to just sort of put it aside because in light of poverty and suffering, and it just didn't seem like it had a place. But that was just, you know, her 23. What did I know? If I'd had another voice at the time helping me see how these things could work together, it would have been really helpful. But instead, yeah, I hit my 30s, my, I had two girls, by now I was back in Australia. And I really started to understand how core creativity was, to me, as a person to all human beings. We're just we're born creative, we just don't always recognize it, or develop it. And I really began to treasure that and see how crucial it was to my balance and well being as a human. For me, it was a connection with God as well, just that was how I was wired, for relationship with him. So I really made it a priority. I'm mobile, I read everything I could from the library, and taught myself first of all, watercolor. And then I moved on to acrylic, and then finally got my brave up to try oil. And I just loved it. And that's where I started to get some training. Then I joined the Australian guild of realist artists. And they were running winter schools for a few years, we could go for a week and spend time with some master artists. And it was absolutely life changing fan tastic got introduced to much more skill based training for realism, and composition and drawing and painting and color use. And it was wonderful. So that really helped me build my skills and understand how to create the kind of art that I was really interested in. There are so many things you've just said in there that I want to ask you about. But the one that sticks out is the mud hot living in Africa. Can you give us a bit of background, how you actually ended up there? What was the circumstances that brought you to living there? It wasn't something I ever thought would happen. When I chose this trip of going to Africa, I thought I'd be in a fairly rural setting. But for just a few months, it turned out I was in a large town that was you know, had stores and cars and all that sort of thing, electricity. And I lived with another couple. After I met my husband, we went back to that same town and we worked in an international school. And so we were helping kids with transition. We did some training in the US, which actually helped us as well as everybody else on how to make those big moves and handle them. When you're going across cultures. Maybe you've spent many years in one culture and now you're moving permanently to another one. Just how that affects us was fascinating stuff. And then we moved in Tunisia and we live just south of the Sahara desert in very small mud village. And it wasn't actually a heart although it was mud. It didn't have electricity or running water. It was sort of like a three bedroom house, and we put a kitchen in one of the so called bedrooms, and and nothing was really square. And it was very hot. So we slept outside. Oh, wow. And sort of had to run the hose at three in the morning because we were on a bit of a hill, when the rest of the town didn't have the water on, we could actually get the hose to work and fill up some barrels with water. Oh my gosh. So it was pretty crazy. We had some solar power. Yep. And we would go bushing outfall drive because we were working with nomads, so we would go out and stay with them slip on sand. The stars were amazing. But it was a pretty full on existence, you know, just making sure you had clean water, putting it through the filter, baking bread, ground grinding meat, just surviving was an language learning was pretty tough with a with a new baby. It was a pretty extreme, really extreme time. But we weren't there terribly long. After about 18 months, we came back to Australia. And we had planned to go back. But for lots of reasons it it was clear to us it was right to stay here in Australia. And we had another baby and daughter life here. Yeah, though, like, let alone, you know, take the fact that you've got a baby out of the mix, that would still be incredibly challenging. But then obviously, that's a whole like, yeah, that's like I can't get around that was really big. And for lots of reasons. Although I loved it. I loved being there. And I was really committed to being there to what we were doing. It also took a heavy toll on me. And I think part of that, I mean, often, postpartum depression can be a thing that we face, whether that's hormones, or whatever it is. And being separated from my support system. I think that was a big part of it, too. A friend who's a psychologist who works with moms, has identified grief, actually, if we're separated from our mother, by, you know, could be relationship reasons, or, or death or distance. But when we don't have that mother support that village, that other women in our life caring for us, we actually go through grief, but it's often not recognized. Often it's misdiagnosed as depression. That was another piece I learned recently that made me think, Aha, I think there was some of that going on. Plus the creative piece of making that choice to think no, no. In this context, that would just be so self indulgent, instead of saying no, no, it would have been something to really help me navigate that tough time. Yeah, I can certainly appreciate where you're coming from both sides of the coin there. Yeah, I can imagine if you're if you're Yeah, if you if you're worrying about having, you know, potable water that you're, you know, that's important. And then if you're using water to paint, you'd think or is that the right thing to do you know what I mean? You'd be questioning this the ethics behind it, I suppose, like, you know, if people are struggling to get clean water, and I'm using it to dip my paintbrush eat like, you know what I mean? Yes, yes, just the simple things can feel indulgent. And there's also a strange feeling of if someone else is suffering, then who am I to not be suffering? And, yeah, you can't go into a situation in a third world country as a Westerner and not feel that there's a difference in lifestyle here. There has to be if I if I didn't maintain drinking water, or you know, some measure of Western food, I probably wouldn't survive. I haven't grown up learning to just deal with a particular environment. Yeah, a harsh environment. So there's some of it, that's necessity, but trying to work out. How much of that helps and how much just be free of it. It's just the way it is. And just be be myself and understand that these women around me, they're enjoying their creativity. It may be different than the way I would Yeah, but they're embroidering. They're making designs. They like the way things look. And they love having a new dress like I do. They're just doing it slightly differently in their context. I didn't need to feel that way. I understand why I did. But if I'd had, I guess, probably just some more time to grow up. If I had more understanding, I could have been kinder to myself. But I think even now, you know, I think people when they see trouble in the world, they can feel like their creativity isn't as important and the need to do something really makes a difference. And they forget that actually, our creativity is hugely powerful both for our own coping stress, and for the things that we make, and how they help create home environments that help us cope with stress, or work environments that help us be productive, or healthcare environments that heal. So if if creativity is something that's really your thing, whether it's music, whether it's art, it's so powerful. When you're saying, talking, then I just had that thought, just recently with the conflict in Ukraine, that there was a footage I saw of a, a gentleman whose son had been in the hospital with being traded in Ukraine, and as the son had been finally discharged, and the dad played his saxophone for the, the doctors and nurses and the other patients there as his little thank you. And, you know, you think that if you play the saxophone or sing or something, you think that so simplistic, I do that all the time. But in that context, you know, the, the joy that it can bring others in, you know, the emotions, and the connection that it creates, you know, is huge, you know, and remembering to do that for ourselves, and our own household, and the people who buy our albums or buy our paintings. It's not just about racing off to a part of the world that suffering and doing something about it, although we feel that it's often just seeing how am I bringing the healing of creativity, the joy of it to my everyday life? My family's everyday life? And my customers everyday life? Yeah, that's, that's so important. That's it, that's a massive point. When you came back to Australia, when was the point that you sort of realized, I'm feel like I've lost myself, I've lost my creativity. And I need to get it back. You talked about you started to do some reading and stuff was there one moment where you just went, I need to change this was it sort of, there were a couple of moments, I knew I was underweight, struggling with my mental health, and not in a good place, which kind of surprised me, because I had been so excited about being in Africa, and so committed to the work that we were doing. But that doesn't stop environments, and even the spiritual environment we're in, and an environment where placing curses on people is a part of normal, everyday life. And if you've never encountered that, and don't really think it's a thing, that doesn't mean it's not a thing. So it was a lot in that environment that I was perhaps only even partially aware of. So I knew when I got back, I needed something needed to change. And I, I kind of felt like creativity was part of it. So gardening was a gentle beginning. As I became more confident in how important my creativity was, quilting became part of it. And then eventually, I was like, Okay, I really want to make space for painting. And a few years had gone by at this point. And there were some, some theological learnings, really just discovering that God is three persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that their community of friendship and joy is creative. That was a real lightbulb moment for me as a Christian going, Wow, that my creativity is not just my thing, and a self indulgent thing, it's deeply core to the nature of God and the relationship has invited me into and for me, that was the biggest, okay, I get it, I get why this is core to who I am, and to my life and to my relationship with God. And it gave me the freedom to say I'm going to pour resources at this time I'm going to invest in growing my creative skills and drawing and painting in the way that I've been wanting to. For years I've been dabbling with music and gardening and quilting, but yeah, just it gave me the yes let's dive in. Yeah, yeah, almost like that. That not permission but that reassurance I suppose that you felt like yes, this is this is it and this is important and it is a value and I can see Yeah, that I'm supporting this I suppose as well. You felt really sure really comfortable with that. So you also work as an art Coach, can you share with us about what you do there? I've been teaching drawing and painting for a few years. And that was how I made the transition from being an admin manager. After homeschooling my kids, I needed a job, they went to school. And that's what I ended up doing. I learned a lot of business skills doing that. And then I just the desire to paint more got really strong. So I built up workshops and classes on the side until I could replace my salary. And during that process, that teacher, part of me, really came alive again. And so I've been juggling my own painting and teaching for quite some time. And I started to have this desire to teach beyond just the class session, because I could see the transformation that was happening in people's lives. So I started luxury art retreats, where women could come for three days, we went to the Yarra Valley, state and beautiful country hotel. And I taught them my six keys to painting, and just watching their dreams come alive, because I get them to start with, who are you? What do you love? What do you enjoy? What subject is most important to you? What style do you like the most start there. And then just learned those things, because there isn't time to learn everything. So learn how to make the kind of art that you most like making. I mean, if you're a musician, you don't feel like you have to sing classical jazz country. You don't have to do it all you kind of know what you like. And you go with that. Yeah. So I kind of took that pathway with helping my students find focus. And then watching these women come live and realizing as I was growing my own art business, and investing in courses and coaching, learning, aha, that this message, I'm hearing so often that it's really hard to sell art. Or you need to get into art shows and win awards. Or you need to get gallery representation. And this is how you do it. I started to think now I think there's another way and I started to realize the entrepreneurial opportunity of the internet for artists. So I started building, how to help artists move on from painting, to being able to do what I've done, and create a side hustle from the art and even a full time business. And so now that's really what I focus on. As a business coach for artists, I've created the profitable artist method. And I teach artists how to get clarity on what they really want to make, and who it's for. Get clarity on how much time they want to spend and how much money they want or need to make. And to build a simple business and marketing plan from there. Yeah, right. That's awesome. Because I think that there is there is this not what the word is, this can be a misconception, I suppose at least this way we see the starving artists, you know that, you know, art's not a real job, you can't make money out of art, you know, and you're basically kicking that to the curb and going no, actually, if you do it in the, you know, particular way, in a particular method, then there's so many opportunities for making a living from your art, for sure. I believe real artists don't starve they thrive. But it does mean recognizing that as an artist, you're not only an art ambassador, you're also an artist, entrepreneur, you're in business, if you want to make a living from your art, and that doesn't. That's not selling out. That's not compromising your creativity. It's an extension of it. Yeah, so it's looking at it in a different way of, you know, taking ownership of it and seeing it as a business rather than I don't know, just a hobby in real cities. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's it. And that can be a challenging mindset, I think for for some people to sort of see that in the barriers, like you said that that selling out mentality, which I'm putting in air quotes. That, yeah, it's, it's if it's what you want, then why should you be held back by you know, maybe some beliefs that you've had in the past or people around you have these certain beliefs? Do you encounter encounter sort of that sort of pushback from people when they're going through that transition? Yes, it can be there, even if they don't fully believe it for themselves. Maybe they doubt themselves? Have I got what it takes? Or they worry? It's about talent? How do I know if I'm talented enough? Whereas actually, I think the more we understand brain science, the more we realize, the people we have thought were the most talented, have actually benefited from training and practice. Those are skills that have been developed. It's not really even in the case of someone like Mozart. It's not just about talent. It's about the environment, the training, the practice, the discipline, that It's really liberating. Because if you can learn art skills to grow your art ability, you can also learn business skills to grow, that even if you're not techie, or you've never had business experience, there are some really simple things you can do. To make sure that as you create work, you share that work with people who love what you love, and can afford to buy it. And you make a buying experience, which these days we can do online, so that they can buy from you. And you create this whole ecosystem using social media and an email list and website. So you, I mean, you're asking that pushback. Yes, there's pushback, but really, there are a lot of people who hold on to this sort of toxic suffering starving artist thing. I just think why you don't need to. So ask yourself, Do I want to thrive? Do I want to make art I love and make a living and build a life I love or do I want to starve for me? I know which one I want? Yeah, that's awesome. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. I want to talk a bit about your own children. Can you share? You've got two children. I've got two girls and they're grown and in their 20s. Now, yeah. One's a nurse. And one has worked as a library assistant. She's currently doing some writing and working, helping me actually quite a bit at home. And yeah, they aren't at all. They yes or no, no, in the sense that neither of them have a desire to be making drawings and paintings. They're both quite creative. My oldest daughter who's a nurse is very creative. And she really brings just this amazing problem solving people caring, empathic sense to her nursing and palliative care. And the other ones come up with a really creative ways of challenging kids who don't love reading, to do a six chapter challenge. That's what she calls it. Read the first six chapters of this book I recommend, and if you still don't like it, I'll give you another one. By the time they get six chapters in their heart, yeah, lots of converts. So yeah, their creativity comes out in different ways than art. That sort of goes back to what you were saying earlier about how we are innately who humans are creative beings. But I think there's a lot of people that discount that in themselves. And even some women that I've approached to be on this podcast, perhaps looking at themselves a different way to where I am as a as an outsider, I see someone who is creating something who's, you know, has created something from scratch and is, is making it work and making changes to it as they go. And I see that as a creative person. And they'd say, Oh, but I don't make anything that cycle. It's not about necessarily making something and having something in your hand that right. Yeah, can you can you sort of expand on that a little bit? Yeah, my husband, Mike is a lien specialist these days. I don't know if you've come across the lien. But it's a whole system of tools and behaviors that helps businesses to work efficiently and helps them to value people and use tools and systems so that they can reduce waste, reduce overwork, not pass on poor quality, things like that. So it makes millions of dollars worth of difference to big companies. But the principles are really amazingly simple and helpful. So as he and I've talked over the years, you know, having a glass of wine sitting down, he's talking about Lean, I'm talking about art talking about our day. We've just seen how many of these things come together. So I actually created a program for businesses called The Art of innovation, using classical drawing to help businesses see 50% of people don't think they're creative. The reality is 100% of us are and if you're going to have a business committed to continuous improvement, you've got to help your people tap into their creativity. They're not going to be creative if they don't think they've got the goods. So add a drawing can be a great way to realize Oh, with a bit of training, oh my goodness, look at that amazingly realistic. Foot I just drew, with these three steps you just taught me Wow. Okay, I'm more creative than I thought. And it's not that being creative is about making art, as you said, or making anything is about recognizing I have this potential, to think of something, to think about it, to think about the problems, to think about the solutions, and to make changes. And my thinking, and my ideas want to understand how my brain works, and how I make tiny new connections that feel so awkward and uncomfortable, and how they can grow. And with repetition, they can practice and develop until we've got like these superhighways of information in our heads where things travel quick, fast, then we can have the courage to grow and change at work, and doing things new ways, problem solving, collaborating, where we've got different opinions coming together, we can realize this feels really uncomfortable right now. But as we persevere, we're gonna get through it, we're gonna come through to the solution. And drawing models that process, that life process. So these workshops are powerful in helping businesses unlock their creativity, for all of the applications within business. Because yeah, you're right, it's like, I think, in COVID, sort of presented so many opportunities for looking at doing things in different ways. And unless somebody feels as though they've got the confidence to think differently, or think like that, but they won't, I think, and then if you, like you said, you open up one tiny little bit of creativity, where they can physically see that they are capable. And then you must just see them thrive, they must just go, oh, my gosh, what else am I capable of, you know, and it gives them that confidence, to share their ideas and to look at things in different ways and challenge things. Yeah. And once you've got those neural pathways in your head, if you struggle through the awkward learning phase, the learning phase of anything feels like trying to write with your with the wrong hand. If you've ever broken an arm and had to write with your other hand, it feels terrible. Yeah, yeah. If you've never done it, try it. It's awful. That feeling is like, that's what learning anything feels like, but you get through it. And then those neural pathways are available for different skills. And that's where it gets really exciting. Yeah, yeah. It's like, just because it worked for one thing, then your brain can connect it to, to sort of reach other outcomes that possibly weren't able to be accessed before. Yeah, yeah, that's really fascinating. That's, like very clever to be able to recognize that you could put those two things together and, and make something that's of such value. Because I feel like, at different times, you know, the government comes out with these different ideas that they're going to train the next generation of whatever. And these these jobs haven't been thought of yet, and, and stuff like that. But then you think, how do they actually do that? You know, doesn't make sense to me. But then you say something like this, that makes perfect sense. Like, you know, it's like, you're just you're discovering things that haven't, you haven't had the chance to discover before? Because your brain hasn't been like that. Yeah. And that process that you're talking about? Michael Gallup, who wrote a book called, how to think like Leonardo da Vinci, he says that creative endurance is the most distinctive trait of highly creative people. And it's that ability to push through it when it feels yuck. When it feels uncomfortable, unfamiliar, I'm stuck at this, I can't do it. And you realize this is just a phase. And you get some help you get some training, you do some practice, you persevere, and pretty soon, you've got a new skill. That's what people need that. I am creative. I can learn new things. If we give that to people, then yeah, we can problem solve, change careers. Do whatever. Yeah, that's awesome. I love that that is really cool. One of the things I like to talk to my moms about on this show is the concept of mum guilt. Do you sort of find or talk about yourself, but also want to talk about people that you work with? Is that something that sort of holds people back creatively mums, in particular, that they feel like when they've got to do something, when they've got to paint or they've got to create, it's at the expense of their children so they feel guilty about doing it? I think it can be there. I think we're experts at coming up with guilt over all sorts of things, and mothering right? Am I living? Right? Have I done enough? Am I enough? And just recognizing that's part of the journey, particularly when you pick up creativity, for some reason. Creativity is just opposed. People have written books about it. It's not even just internal, it's something outside of ourselves. And recognizing that gives you a bit of something in your backbone that says, this does matter. This is good for my kids, when I'm being a whole person when I'm being creative when I'm modeling joy for them. I mean, the challenge is that our time is narrow, as moms, yeah, even when our kids are grown, you know, we're an important part of the family. And so often, the time we thought we'd set aside gets interrupted or changed or, but just knowing that when we think well, about creativity, when we think well about boundaries, when we think well, about being primarily responsible for ourselves, putting on our oxygen mask, before we help someone else, that's just a healthy way to live, then I think, I encourage the women that I work with, to make space for their creativity in three ways, some time, a place, and a process. And if you need to go to the dentist or the doctor, you make time you make an appointment, and understanding your creativity is healthy, it's healthy for you tell the kids to follow and watch the way that you're choosing to live. So making some time and last is going to look different, if you've got littles if you've got school aged kids, and you're working as well. But whatever it is, even if it's just five or 10 minutes, having a few sessions a week, in your diary, then your creative time, I worked with a businesswoman who was very time poor as a mum. And we built her a sketchbook that she could take on the train. Yeah, we built a plan, build a bunch of reference material and some training. So she could whip out a sketchbook and have a few minutes to draw on the train, whatever it looks like, if you can make some time learn a process, it's just gonna really help and to have a place to do it, her place was in a sketchbook on the train, which meant she had to have a little pencil bag that worked. And two, she could use without, you know, jabbing the person next to her. But if you you might have some space in your house, it might not be a whole room. But it might be a container with your art supplies. So you can just pull it out on the table and get started, whatever is gonna work for the life stage that you're in. It might be really, really simple. Yeah. And I think that's a really important point. Because I think it can be daunting for anyone, when they decide they're going to take up a new a new art or new craft or return to it, where it's like, oh, but I need all this space, or I need all this time, I need to have a room for it. And, you know, that can be really overwhelming and a real barrier. But like you're saying, it's about thinking maybe thinking outside of that, that box that you've you've put that into thinking outside of that and saying, you know, I love that example, you know, doing it on the train on the commute? Like, I've never thought of that. I mean, I don't have that in my life. So that's not something I ever thought of. But yeah, that's just it's so refreshing to think like that, that it's not limiting. And it's not. It doesn't have to be the way that you might have thought it had to be. That's right. And when you take stock of how much time do I really have? Am I a morning person or a night person? Where are those little pockets and being realistic about how big they are? I call that loving your limits? Yeah, right, and recognizing what they are because actually, I think it can really help you focus if your limit if you have a time and space limit that might influence the medium that you choose, you might stick to drawing, or you might choose watercolor over oils. And if you're really limited space wise that might affect the size that you choose to work. So as you're loving your limits and working it out, you're finding focus and finding your style finding your way I know an artist who paints gorgeous portraits, but she will just do the eye sometimes, and she'll paint it on a silver spoon. Oh wow. Or in a little teeny weeny box beautiful little box flip open the lid and put a tiny little scene inside. Oh, really mind blowingly creative stuff. So sometimes loving your limits can help you find a way that's really unique. Yeah I've had to say that's incredibly unique, isn't it? And then that I guess that you use that as part of your business that you have got this uniqueness. And you and you build on that. Exactly. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? I think it's a lot of it's about, you know, changing, long held beliefs about what it means to be an artist or be a creative. Right, right, from the very basic of, like you said, finding out what you actually enjoy. Like, I'm a singer, and there's no way that I would go through, like you said, sing all these different styles when I know, the style that I love, and what I like to sing or write about, you know, if someone said to me, you know, write, write about whatever I'd go, well, that's, that doesn't resonate with me. And I guess it's the same with your painting. It's in the medium that you want to work with. And also this, like you said, the thing you're interested in painting? Yes, that's gonna change so much for everybody's No, it really is. And I think when we start there, what do I like? What am I like, as well? Where do I live? What's my personality? What drives me crazy? What colors do I love? What colors do I hate? That when you just look at yourself, you know yourself pretty well. Even if you haven't been paying attention, if you stop paying attention, you know yourself, you're standing there instead of what's the right way to do this. Because our fear and insecurity can make us want to learn right so that other people won't see that we don't know what we're doing. If we can get out of that mode and get into who am i What do I like? That's a much more helpful pathway, I think. Yeah, and I think too, social media is really good at showing us the best of everybody, you know, like, it's a very curated environment where people aren't going to show you the painting that that they painted over because they didn't like it. You know, you you're comparing your starting point to someone else's finishing point. And that can be really daunting as well. It really can. Yeah, and I think that whatever that opposition is to creativity, the criticizing voices that come up, it can be quite surprising. And just recognizing that's part of it. And I tell people collect as many affirmations as you can, you're going to need them. Telling yourself those kind things that yeah, don't don't compare the end of their story with the beginning of your story. And everybody's got out. They're not showing you. Yeah, that's an important thing to remember, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Do you just don't affirmations is one of my favorite ones. There's a friend of mine, who's a watercolor artist. And I did a course with her and her thing was art has no rules. And she put that on her. Like the packaging that the the box with all the art supplies in Julia reader, if you're listening, thank you. So I've got that has no rules on my little backboard where I paint, because that was my biggest thing. Like I've never been a painter, because I didn't know how to do it. And I thought that you had to know how to do something. Right before you could do it. Like I didn't do it in high school. I've never really done much with it. But the more I spoke to moms, on this podcast, I realized that art can be absolutely anything and done in any way. And that was my, just my lack of understanding and my own insecurities holding me back. So now I just love fluffing around painting. It's just so enjoyable. And it's another thing that I've added into my sort of creative, like care taking care of myself. It's been amazing. Yeah, it's exciting, isn't it to just have those things that are holding us back knocked out of the way and it can be such a self healing thing. My second daughter is on the autism spectrum and has a truckload of health challenges. And it was very stressful, particularly when she was younger. And just being able to go somewhere and go into another space and paint for a while was such a healing thing. And that the whole thing about art not having rules, there isn't one right way to do it. I would add to that to that. If if you find the style, the look the kind of art that you like, and you borrow into learning how to make that kind of art, you might find that there are actually some rules or principles that help you. Yeah, which is the flip side of the freedom and there isn't one way to do it. There aren't rules you can it can be whatever you want it to be. Yeah, if you're drawn towards detail and realism and beauty. That's okay, too. That's a wonderful thing. And there are a whole lot of wisdom learning training rules if you like That kind of sift that journey that cannot limit your creativity but actually give Yes. Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like that if you want to do it a particular way, there's going to be some skills that are going to be really useful for you to be able to produce what you want to produce, I suppose. Yeah, so yeah, that's thing, isn't it. And I feel like that with music too. Like, there's so many. This, you know, a billion ways you could write a song and, and it's so freeing to see people do do things. But then within that, there's still you know, the notes on the scale, they never changed. You know, those basic things about rhythm and things like that. So you've got that sort of guideline within it. But then within that you can do whatever you want. I suppose I said, diving into it, knowing the style of music you like, learning from masters within that particular style or genre of music. When they give you a tip, try it like this, or there's this kind of pattern, or, you know, if you jump off from here, or use this kind of key for this kind of, it's so exciting, isn't it to get those tools from someone, you just think oh, my goodness, you can do that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Exciting. You're listening to the art of being a man podcast with Alison Newman. So just coming back to mum guilt, your own personal sort of thoughts on that? Well, for me, it probably one area like it really came up was around, not knowing what I was dealing with, with my daughter Mikayla and her health challenges I knew before I brought her home from hospital, something was going on. I called the doctors in mentioned a couple of things, and they couldn't tell me what it was. So we did a round of specialists for a long time, and they couldn't tell me anything that just take a home lover, she'll be fine. And I knew there was more to it than that. And it wasn't until she was eight, that my mom who knew this journey I was on of trying to figure out what's going on with this kid because it's we're not. This is not just normal childhood milestones. Something's happening here. Yeah. And I can't figure it out. And she she went back to teaching and she asked a fellow teacher, I know this kid, these are those symptoms are what, what, what does it sound like to you. And that was the first time we heard about autism or Asperger's Syndrome. So I started reading, did my thing, borrow books from the library, like I'd done laying to paint. And I just sat there reading the Oasis guide to autism and Asperger's in my room, and the tears just started running down my face, because I realized this is my kid, somebody has just described to me what's going on in the inside. And I had no idea. And I could just see all the things I could have done differently, or the things I've been doing wrong. And just realize what this kid had been dealing with. I was clueless about. I knew something but it didn't know what it was. And it was both, you know, you feel the guilt that why didn't I figure it out before? Or, but I could have helped. And what can you do? You can't do anything but go on and be grateful that now you know, and do the best you can to love and measure can not as you can't Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? I think as moms we're really good at beating ourselves up over things that we could do absolutely nothing about things that are out of our control. Yeah, we've got to sort of make make it feel good for everybody. And then when it doesn't, it's it's our fault, even if it's not our fault. Yeah, and then when we do blow it plenty of times you know, we get snapping get your into ball, we get bossy we get whatever unfair. And I think just being honest with our kids, especially as they get older and just being able to say I'm sorry, I was really cranky. Or I'm sorry that really wasn't fair. I think that just goes a long way to because the fact is we're never gonna be perfect anything's we're here. We're humans. Yes, we're honest. We can we're fatally flawed. So then going to another topic I'd love to talk about is the concept of identity about how the concept of your own identity changed. When you did become a mum, did you go through sort of a shift? I mean, I know you were in a really different place in the world, like do you graphically in a different sort of area, but yeah, how did you sort of? How did you feel about that whole process of that change? I really wanted to be a mum, I was really keen to be a mum, I, I'd been married nearly four years when my first daughter arrived. And my whole life was so extremely different. We moved into this mud village when I was eight months pregnant. So oh, you know, I was not just adjusting to motherhood, I was adjusting to a completely different existence, different language, different everything. So it and because that happened for me young, because I went overseas when I did I met Mike when I did. When he thought I was 24. I thought he was 24. Turns out, there's a 10 year age gap. I ended up being a teenage bride and uh, you know, people, mother, yes. But when we came back to Australia, and I had the two girls and then homeschooling them for a while, I felt like it was really, in my late later 20s and 30s that I started to figure out. So who am I? I can my wife and I'm a mom, and I've, you know, been overseas and done these things. But what am I really like? Yeah, because I'm married to a young and went overseas into an extreme situation. So Young, I didn't even really have those late teens 20s of figuring out who you are, as an adult being a single person, I was already making a life with another person, which was hugely transformative as it is when two opposites try and make a life together. But yeah, I think that discovering who I am, came later. And that's one of the things I love about getting older, I'll be 50 this year. And I love that I don't love the fact that my body is changing, my skin's getting all my hairs. But I do, I do love the internal change of just being so much more confident in who I am having had more life experiences and knowing I just know myself better. I know, my strengths and my weaknesses, and some of those weird limiting messages. I've learned other things that are true that have helped. So I like that side of identity as you get older of just knowing yourself better. And I think it's just always changing. You know, I knew I wanted to learn to paint. I thought teaching was the way to build more of a painting life. And it's reminded me that actually, I'm a teacher at heart. And I love that as much or more than the creative process itself. So for me helping artists step into their full art life, their career as an artist entrepreneur, that is so fulfilling for me that I'm willing to put limits on my own painting to pursue that journey, because I can't do everything I'd love to be and do everything. But there's not enough hours in the day are there? Yeah, that's it, isn't it? But I think what you said there about enjoying getting older and coming to these realizations, I think that's something that a lot of us can relate to. It's something I certainly can relate to, like I'm about to be probably 44 later this year. And you know, the best times mentally, you know, you go through this, all these things as a youngster about all this doubt. And what do people think of me and all this judgment, and you get to a point in your life where you just go, ah, none of that matters, who gives a toss, you know, and I joked with a guest recently, like, everyone should think like a 40 year old woman because you, you just you don't care anymore. You know, you've got the things in your life that are important, the things that matter, you've worked out yourself. And you're like, No, everything else can just go by the wayside. So it's incredibly liberating time of life. And I think you get over the shock of, oh my gosh, like, I thought, I thought youth would last longer. This aging thing that used to happen to other people, it's happening to me, there's kind of grief about that, or at least there was for me, and getting over that and realizing ah, actually, the opportunity in the next stage of my life is actually even richer because my baby making user behind me even much I mean for me I started young so yay, I've got adults now not nobody's in school anymore. And I'm, I'm free to move on to enjoying all those things I've learned about myself now in a different way in this part of my life, and I really like that. Yeah, yeah, I can relate to you talking about like grieving changes. When I had to get glasses. It was like, when I finally said I have to get glasses it was just like this. No getting like this. The worst thing in the world that could possibly happen to anybody. You know. It's so self referred. Isn't it? passes on in the store. I was is my first year of classes to literally the tears welled up in my eyes because I look like an old lady to myself. Yeah, yeah, because that's the thing, we have these concepts of what it means to be old and get old. And for me glasses was one of those things. So then when I, when I got my glasses, and I put them on, and I actually they look nice, like, they don't look like my grandmother's glasses, you know, they were never going to, you know, but that's what I had in my head. And then I first time I wore them to work, I was really nervous that because I hadn't worked with children for nine years in childcare, and I was thinking all the kids are going to be trying to pull them off, and there'll be like, making a big deal. And I wore them for probably 20 minutes before any of the children said anything I could tell they were looking, but one of them come up, they said, our you've got glasses on. And I was like, Yeah, I do. And that was it. You know, so my own, you know, worries about how they'd be received. You was nothing to worry about, you know, we build all this stuff, we build these stories in our minds of what's gonna happen in life. Well, I do certainly mean that it doesn't come true. And instead of going, Oh, well, that was nice. I don't have to worry so much anymore. We're finding things that we oh gosh, yeah. I put that down a lot of it to being a Cancerian I think YTD for about everything. You talked about that your your art take second place to your other sort of work that you're doing. But that is still your creative work, isn't it like it's not as though your own, the physical act of creating might not be there as much, but what you've created and what you're sharing is a massive part of it. That's really important to you, isn't it to be really important to me? Yes, yeah. And I actually love the whole creative process of crafting a message, and learning how to communicate that through social media, through my website, through an email list. Communicating and cultivating that audience, I run a Facebook group for artists called the confident artist. And so helping that community in their creativity, and then stepping into sharing their art with the world, designing the training materials, you know, and the graphics and all of that, that whole process of that teaching process of taking knowledge and experience and questions, and just shared experience. And communicating that with others. That's a really important creative process for me. And part of drawing and painting is that decision, fatigue is a big part, we're making so many decisions about the work all the way along, whether it's designing the idea in the first place, how we're going to compose the composition, how we're going to mix the colors, how we're going to actually create those clouds, or render those leaves, what painting needs next, which particular method I'm going to use to solve that particular problem, it can leave you mentally drained. So in a season, I've just learned I have to have seasons. And if, if I'm in a season of making a body of work, it may not be the same season where I can be really promoting a coaching program like the profitable artist. And that's a hard and costly choice. But sometimes that just has to happen, you have to mind using my creativity in this area. So it might not like I tell my students that really you need about a 5050 balance between making your creative work and marketing your creative work. And that can feel shocking in the beginning. But it also doesn't mean that you divide up every day, with a 5050, half to each, you have to find your own rhythm, it might work for you to make in the morning, market in the afternoon. But it might also mean that you have a week where you paint, and then you have a week where you do the business side of things. It just depends on what works better for you. And you might find it works different in different seasons. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because you can sometimes get on a real roll. We all the ideas are coming. And you don't want to sort of have to put a timer on that and say, Oh, no, no, can't do that. Now, you can let that come and let that happen. Because then there's always times when you're not feeling like that. So that's the time is when you can do the practical work and, you know, that other side of things. That's, that's really important too. So yeah, I mean, that's the thing. We things always ebb and flow, don't they? No one can be everything all the time at the same level. You know, that's just it's just the nature of things, and especially being the nature of women to Kate Northrup. I wrote a book called, do less more, I think it's called. And in there, she talks about the fact that as women, we're on a 28 day cycle, whereas men are on a 24 hour cycle. And in some ways, we know all about that. But in other words, we don't know much about that. How often do we expect ourselves to be on a 24 hour work cycle. And we forget the fact that our energy ebbs and flows in really different ways that she's done a great job of mapping, the kinds of energy we have at different stages, in even if we're not actually cycling, like we were, when we were younger, even if you're at that life stage, you still have these rhythms of energy, rest, being more extroverted and more introverted. And that is a really helpful perspective, I think, to end to get to know yourself, when you're in that, wow, the ideas are just coming. Capture them go with it. And then when you're in that quiet, I'm just doing the work mode, I'm smashing it out. Or you're in the extroverted making connection space, or just that, who I need to refill the well. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? Yeah. And that's the thing, too, I think because, you know, as we're, there's different times in our life when we're so conscious of where we are in our cycle. And then there's other times in life where we just, it's not even on our radar. So and that's the thing to get back in touch with what, where we're at and what we feel at that time, and how that affects our creativity. And, yeah, I think that's a really important thing to think about. Because sometimes just sneaking away for power nap, is actually going to be more productive in the long run, than just trying to push through. Yeah, that's so important. I think there's this, there's been this massive, sort of focus on, I don't know what they call it like the, you've got to be productive all the time. You're smashing out things. And you've got the, I can't remember what they used to be this hashtag about? I don't know, you get where I'm coming from that hustle culture? Sort of Yeah. And you've just, it's almost like wrist was something that you'd give yourself as a reward, not as something that is part of just your, your regular life, I suppose. And, yeah, I feel like it's changing is definitely I mean, certainly the people that I follow, there's this idea that we, the old self care Sundays, that the hashtag still gets around, but it's a night, you can be mindful of that any time of the day. And like you said, if you feel like you need a nap, because that's going to make you more productive later, then do it, you know? And that comes down to judgment to be that, you know, how are you sleeping in the middle of the day? You know, aren't you supposed to be doing something, you know, all those little voices from a naive, maybe capitalist or a patriarchal sort of society come into our head and say, Yeah, what do you do in that for? Yeah, and not recognizing that creativity doesn't like to be on 24/7. And you've actually probably only got about four hours max, of that really intense work, new work, creative work in you. And if you do any more, in a day of that kind of work, you're probably going to be in creative debt the next day, so mixing it up with admin, housework, whatever, without breaking concentration, but just knowing your limits, learning to feel where you're at, is this the time to go with the flow, this is the time to say, Okay, that's enough. And also, brain science is fabulous in this recognizing there are different ways our brain works different aspects of our brain for different tasks. And when we stop, and go away and do something different, like take a walk, take a shower, take a nap, chop vegetables, back in your floor, your brain flips into this different zone. And when it's in that zone, it's almost like neutral. Yeah, what it does is it starts making connections between all of these completely different areas in your brain, ideas, thoughts, memories, experiences, and it starts making solutions that are completely unique. Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? Like I find, it's almost like I think did Einstein call it the theta state or the theta state? It's something to do with when your brains at rest. And it doesn't have to be actual meditation doesn't have to be laying down meditating. But it's like you're doing a repetitive or, I don't wanna say mindless because, but you're basically chopping vegetables when you said that. It's like you're doing a repetitive thing and your body goes into like muscle memory, and it just does it. Yeah. And then that gives your mind the time to, like you said, makes the connection and you're not conscious of it. It's not a thing that you're thinking, necessarily, but like the shower, going in the shower and walking are the two biggest times I get ideas. It's like you're just open and stuff just comes in and it's just amazing. I quickly get out of the shower and just record things on my phone or exactly I need a whiteboard in the shower. But it's true, isn't it like you need you need the ebbs and flows and your body has to have time and your mind has to have time to process things and then get you ready for the next load of whatever you're doing. And as a mom, if you can embrace that, then that it just works, doesn't it because we spend a heck of a lot of time, and vegetables and cleaning things and driving and. And we need to exercise you know, just to keep ourselves together. And walking is such a great way to do that. Those things can be part of our life. And when we realize I'm not beating myself up while I'm doing those things about all the things I haven't done yet. I'm relaxing and recognizing this is a really powerful part of the rhythm. And if I'm open, I'm excited to see what floats into my head. Potentially while I'm chopping broccoli. Yeah, yeah, I love that. That is so awesome. So I, I do a lot of yoga. And it's that the best stuff is like you do all your asanas and do all the movement, do some breathing. And then you have a nice meditation and you have a heavy Shavasana. And it's like, okay, what can you give me now like, you know, you're so open, and you're so relaxed, and your body's in that, that state, and then you can just you just get the best ideas, but I do anyway, I just love it. I'm not a yoga practitioner at all. But I do like silent meditation before the just what I should say, I don't necessarily love the doing of it. But I love the effect of it and learning that just even 10 minutes of silence just ignoring the chatter that my mind comes up with. Actively just letting it go that Yeah, yeah, it does put you in an amazing place to think clearly and be more energized, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. I'd always get up from my shavasana and my yoga teacher, she'd be like, Okay, what if he got first this time, like, because it was become this joke that I just be like, Oh, guess what, I just thought of what some I just came up with like, it was just, yeah, I'll just. If there are people in your audience who are wanting to learn to draw paint, dive into that part of their creativity, then come Come find me, the confident artists Facebook group, there's a lot of people in there who are enjoying their creativity together at all different levels. And I have a blog on my website that's got some really helpful tools and tips for enjoying your creativity, learning to draw and paint. And if you already painting and drawing and you're thinking, Can I do this? Could I really make money doing something I love? How do I even start selling art, then head to my website, Fiona valentine.com, I've got a free guide on how to start selling your art that talks about how to get clarity, and how this works, how to think about your pricing. And there's a lot of other resources there on my website, you can find out about the coaching program, the profitable artist method. And if you've got questions, just let me know, there's a button where you can hop on a free call, and we can talk about your creative journey and how you can get some support are fantastic. Yep. So I was gonna ask you, what's the best way to go ahead and get in touch but you've just answered that for me beautifully. Thank you. And also on your website, you've got some information on Oh, yes, innovation workshop. You'll see that in the tabs on my website, there's a tab for business school that talks about the profitable artists method. And it's another tab that says the art of innovation workshop. And that's where companies or you know, collection of people who want to get together and do a two hour online zoom workshop to learn how to draw so that you can boost your creative potential. And you can use it like an exercise taking your brain to the gym. So yeah, you'll find all that information there too. Thank you so much for coming on today. I've really enjoyed talking with you is raised some points that I've sort of lost along the way somewhere, you know, especially that that you know, keeping in touch with your emotions and your cycle and that kind of stuff. So yeah, really valuable to have you here and thank you so much for giving me your time today. Thank you so fun to talk with you and your music is beautiful, Allison. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Oh, do you have to keep an ear out for the next year when which will hopefully be the end of the it's been a slow process, but I don't mind that. It just happens when it happens and amongst everybody else. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Bianca Morra US photographer + podcaster S2 Ep58 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest today is Bianca Morra, a photographer and podcaster from Cleveland Ohio and a mother of 2. Throughout her schooling Bianca was drawn to photography at different times, but pushed it aside to study mainstream subjects. She didn't seriously consider that photography could be a career path. Bianca stumbled on the work of American documentary photographer Jim Goldberg and his series Rich and Poor, and it was through this that she discovered that photography could be more than a pretty picture, it could be used to convey and tell stories. Feeling inspired, she went to Ringling College of Art and Design in Florida where she did a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Photography and Digital Imaging with a minor in Business Art and Design. After Bianca's employment abruptly ended, she took that as an opportunity to start her own business, She works as a professional photographer capturing memories for families, and as a course facilitator encouraging people to understand themselves more, through the understanding of why they take the photos that they do. Bianca believes in not being afraid to take your phone out and take photo, at any time, and for mums to get in the photos too. Bianca has created the Help Me See podcast - where she holds vulnerable, real conversations challenging the cultural norm & empowering listeners to harness their intentional vision for a purposeful life. Her photography style can be described as an intimate, she has a love for texture and imperfections in her photo editing that favours helping clients feel themselves back to the moment rather than just seeing it. Above all else she believes that photographing your life is a not a luxury, it is unequivocally essential. We are creating our nostalgia now, as we take each photo. **This episode contains discussion around mental health, post natal/partum depression ** I like your work podcast / Monika Crowley's work / Grace Tame Bianca Instagram / website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. My guest this week is Bianca Mora, a photographer and podcaster from Cleveland, Ohio, and Bianca is a mom of two boys. throughout school, Bianca was drawn to photography at different times, but pushed it aside to study mainstream subjects. She didn't seriously consider that photography could be a career path, Bianca stumbled on the work of American documentary photographer Jim Goldberg, and particularly his series rich and poor. And it was through this that she discovered that photography could be more than just a pretty picture. It could be used to convey and tell stories. She went to Ringling College of Art and Design in Florida, where she did a Bachelor of Fine Arts in photography and digital imaging with a minor in business, art and design. After Bianca is employment abruptly ended, she took that as an opportunity to start her own business. She works as a professional photographer, capturing memories for families, and as a course facilitator encouraging people to understand themselves more through the understanding of why they take the photos that they do. Bianca believes in not being afraid to take your phone out and take that photo at any time. And for mums to get in the photos to. Bianca has created the podcast called helped me see where she hosts vulnerable, real conversations, challenging the norms and empowering listeners to harness their intentional vision for a purposeful life. Her photography style can be described as intimate, she has a love for texture and imperfections in her photo editing that favors helping clients feel themselves back to the moment rather than just saying it. Above all else. She believes that photographing your life is not a luxury, it is unequivocally essential. We are creating our nostalgia now as we take each photo. Please be aware this episode contains discussion around mental health, postnatal depression, and anxiety. Today's episode you'll hear music from my trio called LM Joe. We create ambient and new age music, myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband, John, and you can find the links to listen to more in the show notes. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you. Or from the resources online. I've compiled a list of great international resources, which can be accessed by the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you for coming on, Bianca. It's really a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Oh, thank you so much, Alex. I'm so excited to be here. I mean, from the second I just read the title of the podcast when I first became aware of it. I was like, Well, I mean, the most perfect thing ever right up my alley. Oh, that's brilliant. So we're about to you in America. I am about 20 minutes outside of Cleveland, Ohio. Right. So where's that in relation to? I don't know. What's a big city that I know New York. Where is it new in realize now it's seven hour drive from New York? Ah, okay. So it's sort of sort of in the ballpark. there somewhere. Yeah, yeah. Cool. So what's it like over there at the minute is you're coming in to use spring it was summer, spring now. It's definitely getting warm that I feel like we skipped spring and headed straight to summer for some reason. It was like blistering cold and now all of a sudden, it's like super humid. Right. So what sort of degrees like daily temps to get there? We've been around from 70s to 80s in the last few days, but I don't know it's pretty turbulent. It really wavers. Yeah, right. I'm just gonna look at what that is. is in Celsius. So fair. I have this thing where I like I have a I've always been like, are 20? About 21? Yeah, that's nice. I like to know about people's weather. I don't know, it just helps me put things in context, if I can visualize and feel myself in, is I understand what your place is like. Oh, totally sure thing I've always done. And it's, it's weird, but I don't know, it's just one of those things. Like, I just want to know, when you wake up, do you put on a sweater or shorts? Let's see these in that. Yeah, you can feel like I can. Yeah, I want to say I can make a judgment about a face because that's not really true. It's very superficial. But you know, you can get a feel for a place if you sort of get the vibes. What's happening? Yes. You're a photographer and a podcaster, can you share with us what you do how you got into it, I never in a million years planned on creating a podcast at all. It wasn't something that I had planned to do. Basically, last year, about two weeks into my maternity leave, I got laid off from my full time job. And I really didn't see coming like, at all you'd like to think that. And I was there for about six years. And you'd like to think that you would kind of get a sense for it. And when I didn't, I felt very whiplashed I felt so something changed. And I knew that for the tail end of my employment there, it had turned into something that I didn't love. And I knew I wanted to make the switch, eventually to be full time on my own. But I didn't expect the rug to be pulled out from under me. So it was like a little bit of a humbling experience, but also an experience of if I could work that hard and be that loyal, and you know, kind of put that much energy in this one life that I have into someone else's venture, then I certainly can do that for myself. So you know, by the end of it, it was like, Oh, do you would you like to reapply blah, blah, blah. And I was like, You know what? No, I'm gonna double down on myself. At the worst possible time, we had just moved into my new house, our first house ever second baby, you know, it was just of all the times to take the plunge. But you know, in some ways, I feel like it was the best possible time to take the plunge. Because if I wasn't going to do it at the most uncomfortable than what was going to make me do it, you know, otherwise. So? Yeah, that's it. Because when things are really good, you're not your brains not going there is it's Yeah, yeah. Happy. And yeah. Have you had experience in, like photography and that sort of stuff? Like growing up? Or how did you get into that? Yeah. So I was, I really got into it in high school, I was taking all of like, the advanced placement classes, and like the calculus and the English, and it was just what I was doing, but I knew that the only class that I really loved was my photography class. But for some reason, there wasn't. It just didn't occur to me, it didn't dawn on me that I could pursue that it was just like, oh, but that is just too good. This too fun. And I didn't really take it like seriously as a career path. And then I had happened upon Do you know who Jim Goldberg is? He's a documentary photographer, and I happened upon his work. And I remembered specifically because it definitely was a moment where I felt like my brain changed. Like, it was like a, you know, one of those electric moments, where and it was particularly the series he did on the rich and poor, and it were these black and white photographs. They were just very honest, looking at the camera, and then he would hand it to them and have them just write something about what they thought about the photo. So it was just this moment where I was like, oh, like photography can be more than a pretty picture. Like it was just it seems very trivial, but it was a huge moment for me and my brain. And so after that I decided to go pursue it in college. So I went to a private art school, a Ringling College of Art and Design in Sarasota, Florida, and I graduated with a BFA in photography in digital imaging with a minor in Business art and design there and so yeah, that's that's my background and I had I mean, I had been photographing since you know, I could get those digital or those disposable cameras in a very composed The way I, I say that when I was in middle school, there was this moment of me laying in my bed, looking at the ceiling about to fall asleep, where I think the concept of death just dawned on me as well. Things kind of dawn on me like a two boys. I remember thinking about, you know, just like nothing mattering. And I don't know, something just panicked in me. And I felt like, oh, I need to make things to let people understand how I feel about them, I need to make things because eventually, what I think and feel might not matter, like my favorite color, and my favorite band, like might not matter. But whatever I make, can be left behind. So I very much became a maker from that point. Do you find when you watch movies, that you can't just watch it, you have to like find the deeper meaning in everything. Like, it's just I have to I honestly, I have like two modes. I either I have to watch the very, very, like easy to watch like Seinfeld, Curb Your Enthusiasm, the you know, deep emotion, or I'm in the depths of No, I don't know, I I I think I'm I just this past year became familiar with the term HSP highly sensitive person, I really think that I'm like, like, medically that I can't even if I know it's not real, and it didn't happen. I carry it like an anchor on my chest for like weeks. So I have to pick and choose my intake. Yep, no, I can relate to that. It's like that empaths sort of energy where you take it in. And it's like you're experiencing spirit experiencing yourself. Like, I can't listen to like true crime or anything like that. Because I can visualize myself and feel myself in the position of that person. Both people like the victim and the perpetrator. Like, I just can't do it. It's too much. Yes, yeah. And I dropped my sister mad when we watch movies, because there's darkness and she's up there like the I don't know, I can. Yeah. Settlers my, my partner, he is a computer animator. So if we're ever like watching a Pixar movie, or something we'll be watching and be like, Do you know how hard it is for them to do those bubbles. And like a few of us it's really, it's really should be hilarious. And it's like, you're gonna give it to us about your bubbles. Like, oh, my gosh. So I heard about this exercise to like write a letter to someone that inspires you deeply. And then to someone that drives you nuts and to after you're done writing it, change the name to your own name, and then read it again. And, gosh, I want to give credit where it's due, I believe it was on a podcast called I like your work. Yeah, I believe that's what it was. And I was like, that sounds so interesting. So I was in my studio. And I just started writing a letter to this photographer that I loved so much. And I was like bawling, like by myself up and he's like, passed like he passed young. I never met him no exposure to him. But for some reason I feel this like, deep soul connection to him. Anyway, but it made me want to get a tattoo for him because I a few years ago, I purchased a book of his on eBay. And I could have gotten it brand new. But I chose to buy the one that he signed, but he labeled it to bill. And I was like how could bill sell this? He touched it. He taught like I was like, No, I want it. I don't care if it's effed up like I want to have the book that he touched in some way like that. I don't know I carry something for me. So it was like if I get like a a tattoo that said Dear Larry love Bill Oh my gosh. Oh, fat. It reminds me I had a conversation the other week with a lady who's a potter functional product, but she also does some ceramic stuff. And we're talking about how, when you pick up a piece of pie, I've got a not a sugar bowl, what's it called a fruit bowl. And when I pick it up, sometimes I put my thumb in the same spot where there's an indent of the thumb of the person who made it. And it's just that incredible connection. Like, oh, I just spins you out. Like, I just love that, that. Yeah. That just gave me goosebumps. Ah, yeah. Tell us more about your podcast, what it's called, and what you do, and all that sort of stuff. So the podcast is called helped me see. And it it's funny, because it's probably the least planned thing I've ever done in my life. And it continues to be that. And I know that it has to be that for me to continue doing it. So helped me see is all around just having very real and honest and vulnerable conversations, you know, much like you do here, you know, challenging norms. And also just trying to make sense and meaning out of these, like, these feelings that we have that we swear we know better, but we can't help but have and like the wavering of it, and the waffling of it. And so I do have guests on the show. But I also do a lot of solo episodes that are just basically like my audio diary recordings of me just talking about the things that really rev me up. And I would say that one of the, although my focus is in Photographic Arts, and I really have a strong passion point for kind of reimagining the way that we think about our photographs and the way we photographs or our lives. I would say one of the main driving forces of me, being so radically transparent with my own feelings is when I had a bout with postpartum depression. And after my first child, and I was just so taken aback and kind of mad at no one and everyone, I felt like so shocked that I could feel this bad and not have had any sort of exposure to it. Like I and I feel like it is getting better. I do feel like I maybe it's the algorithm, I don't know. But I feel like I'm seeing so much more just like honest sharing. But I think that I just felt so shocked that I was so shocked by how I felt and didn't see it coming at all that I was like, I will never, I will never hide my truth, even if it helps one person. Like I remember coming back from maternity leave. And you know, people were so innocent and welling, well intentioned, but would be like, Oh, that must have been so lovely. And I was like, No, it was really terrible. It was really terrible. And I could see them be uncomfortable. But I had to I had to just be honest, because, you know, that's how I know. That's how I got there. So you know, that person innocently having that exchange with me? If I were to have, you know, glazed by it, perhaps they might be more apt to experience that. So, you know, I love that. Yeah, because I think I have had my own experience with postnatal depression as well. And it's really important, I believe, for what you're doing and what I attempt to do as well to normalize these emotions, that it's not bad, you're not a bad mother for feeling this way. It's a society has got this, this set of expectations of how you're supposed to feel. And I just want to smash them up and say that we can feel however, we want to feel how we need to feel and the more we talk about it, the better that we're all going to be because I think that's the thing the woman that said that to you might not have been a woman sorry. That's how she's been exposed to it. And probably the same thing has had people who maybe didn't have the courage that you did to say actually, no, that's this is not how it is, this is how it is, you know, this is reality. You know, if everybody goes around pretending that it's fine, then you know, it'll continue to be the way it is. Or has been. So yeah, good on you. I mean, in that it, it those are the more acute like I'd say heightened important areas but it, it is rampant. It's like when someone just says, Well, how are you? If you ever say anything other than fine or oh, great, then it's like, okay, that's too much. I just asked because it's a social norm, you're supposed to say, you the script, the script, you know, don't deviate from the script. Yeah, that's it, isn't it like the are there's a delay, I've just started following on Instagram. Who, I mean, there's a lot of women that are doing it now, which is great, you're basically telling it like it is, you know, I'm not a bad mother, because I, I got frustrated with my children today, because they wouldn't listen to me, you know, just just calling it out and saying, This is fine. This is life, and we're allowed to feel crap. You know, the thing that I found really challenging, when I was starting to tell people about my personnel depression is that I, no one said it to me, but I had this idea in my head that I should feel grateful that I was able to have children. So I shouldn't feel this way, you know. And, honestly, it's like, you cannot control the chemicals in your brain, you cannot control that, you know, I've had actually had someone tell me once that depression wasn't real, and I thought, you've never experienced it, you've got no idea, this woman that I met, that, that was reckoned through daily affirmations, you could keep yourself well. And I said to her short, that might be able to help with a low mood, you know, a bit of exercise never hurt anyone, you know, getting outside and talking yourself up a bit. That's great for low mood, but if you use you actually, physically in your brain, the chemicals are not doing what they're supposed to do, then you're going to experience an altered sense of reality. And that's the truth of it. You know, I feel like slapping this woman when she told me that I won't speak to her anymore, because it's like, how do you know, it's scary, it's scary that those those sentences can come out of, you know, because, you know, thank goodness that you have the understanding that you do, because I mean, the last thing someone needs is to feel even more isolated. And yeah, I definitely relate to what you were saying about oh, I should, all the things you should feel it's the least amount of helpful when I was going through it. I'm like, Oh, I'm not in the NICU. I was going through all the reasons why it didn't make sense. And I, you know, should be grateful that something that I was talking about recently is, you know, this, this not only toxic positivity, because I feel like that's was a huge thing for me. But also, I feel like the more nuanced version is weaponizing gratitude with yourself. Oh, I should be grateful. I'm grateful. Why am I feeling if I was more grateful, I wouldn't feel like this. And it's just the least amount of helpful thing ever. Oh, yeah. I want to mention a quote that I found through your Instagram, which was amazing, and I want to hear more about it. So you said the photograph is not just a souvenir to help you remember? Can you share more about that? And the sort of the deeper meaning behind that? Yes, it's strange to hear me quoted. I was like, what what did I say? Say your face you like? Yeah, the photograph is not a souvenir just to help you remember, I, I truly feel that. Photographs, although that is a huge benefit of them. It's not just something to help you remember, I think that it's something that can be used to help you engage more in your life. It's an active viewing and experiencing of your life. And I also there's no notion of, you know, a moment frozen in time, although it is very much an image that stays the same. The meaning transforms and transcends like, time and space. And you know, that staying the same, but we're continuing to grow our lives are changing circumstance, everything. So you can take a photo of something and feel a certain way about it. And two weeks later, a month later, 10 years later, feel completely different about it. First photograph is semi meaningless, and then all of a sudden, it becomes the most important thing because it's the last of whatever, you know, it's just this these magical little blips, I call them breadcrumbs for your life. because not only is it something that I believe to be like a form of acknowledging and, you know, being more present in the moment. But it's also this gift that you give yourself later in life to seek comfort, understanding, healing. I mean, just so much. There's just, it's just the whole world. I mean, that can dive into every nook and cranny. And it's incredible to me, because it's, you know, and I think that it's in today's day and age, it's almost being looked at as something that's like a gluttonous act. Right? Like, whenever you feel like the impulse to take a photo, it's almost like a shameful thing. Like, why can't I just be present? And that is like, yeah, yeah, that's my soapbox. Yeah. And this this thing that oh, you've always got your phone in the in your hand, because you're always thinking about a photo. Yeah. Yeah, I can relate to Yeah, hearing that. Feeling. Yeah. But I mean, you are your own internal compass. And I think that we are super sophisticated. And we know if it's coming to enough to distinguish where that's coming from, you know, if you are feeling the pressure to take a photo because of an expectation, or because you want to post it or, and you also know if it's a very organic spark that you just, it comes out of you. And it's before you even realize that your phone is out. And it's because you have this deep inner knowing that this is a moment for you. Like we see a bajillion things a day, like 360 degrees, like, if we're blessed with eyesight we see so much in a day. And when you have that spark of like, I want a photo of this. It is like a recognizing so many more levels into a moment than we I think we're aware of in that moment. It's like we're wise beyond her years. And, you know, if we just take the photo, even if it's a super snapshot, casual, not cute, whatever, I believe that those are breadcrumbs for leave or later for reason. I was thinking about this, leading up to talking to you I have I have a thing where I have to take photos of flowers, or what I see is intensely beautiful things. And I was thinking about it as you know, as I would because I think everything is that just because I like beautiful things? Or is it is there's something deeper in there. Like that they make me feel good. Or you know what I mean? Like it's not a frivolous thing. Like I was talking to one of the ladies on the mother world episode, Tasha was saying, like I have I collected a lot of artwork of, I'm not going to show you because it's an absolute mess. But I have a corner in my room where I put the proper artwork that real artists did that I put in frames, and I just I love having them. They're just so beautiful, and I love them. And she was saying how society can view beauty as a frivolous thing. You know, what's your take on that? I believe that. And also, Tasha is like a genius. I wish. I was like, I don't even understand the magic coming out of your mouth right now. I believe that we respond to things that we don't know until we know, I think that it's with the flowers, perhaps one day, okay, like, ah, that's why I get that a lot. I get that a lot. Like, I have these moments where I feel like I've had this incredible breakthrough. And then all of a sudden, I look back and I'm like, I've been doing the same shit for 20 years. It's just a different way. So far as to like, I think that what we're recognizing, and that the same way I feel about taking pictures like of your daily life, like whether it be a flower or whether it be a moment of your kids or whatever, not knowing what exactly you're responding to, until you look back at it from your bird's eye view and find that common thread and understand what it is you're responding to. You know, I just I don't know why this is making me think it's kind of it's similar but not exactly the same. I think about that photographer. I was telling you about my favorite photographer. Ever. I had this moment of like there's this other photographer that I usually am not like the biggest fan of his work. It's beautiful, but I found this one book of his and I was like oh my goodness like I'm I just have this and I didn't understand why. Because I'm like, he's not usually my fit might you know exactly for me, but this feels like, oh, and I open it. I could cry just talking about it. It freaked me out so much. I had no idea. Apparently, my that photographer that's my favorite Larry, she mentored him. And he specifically was the thank you for that book. I was sobbing, I was like, Are you kidding? Like, you can't make that up. And it's just what is for us is for us as for us, and the more we're able to like recognize it. I feel like the more we pull it in, which is why one of in my deep dive, of course, I made I late and it's all about this and our photographic tendencies, but it's called and some people, I don't know if I should change the title, because I feel like some people get confused by it. But it feels so true to what it does. I called it manifest your memories. Because I, I desire to help you just feel more confident in your ability to recognize your right moments, not better photos, not whatever. But the photos that are meant for you. Because once you know what your right moments are, you see more of them, and you create more of them. Yeah, yep. Yeah. When you're aware. And you you've got that in your mind. You're very conscious of it. And yeah, yeah. So you mentioned your course there. Can you share more about what you do in your career? You post creation in your education? For people? Yeah, yeah, it's, I mean, it's all about in uncovering of you. It really is. I know, it's, sometimes it takes me a bit to explain, because I think that because I'm a photographer, I think it's more expected that I'm helping you take better pictures, but really, it's helping you kind of understand what you're responding to, and what that process can give to you. Because it really can be depending on, you know, the emotional state you're in, you can take a snapshot, because you just want to quickly get it and just be in the moment or it could really be like inexperience, I think that we underestimate the amount of decisions we make, especially people that don't quote unquote, identify as creative, which is come on, I got a bone to pick with that everyone's creative. Yeah, absolutely agree with that. Yes. It's like all from the framing to the, you know, what, how far you're in or out, even if it's like an amateur, whatever. It's all very important, and just kind of helping us reimagine, and like gain a new respect and understanding for your unique vision of your life. Yeah, that's the thing I think you don't want to diminish, just because the photo might not be aesthetically perfect or pleasing or whatever, that does not diminish the fact that whoever took that photo was taking it for a reason that's relevant to them. Which, yeah, and I guess that's art, too. It's like, everything's subjective. You know, the person that painted something, was doing it for their benefit. They weren't doing it, to make it beautiful for you to put on your wall. Like, you know, everyone's got that meaning inside of them that comes out in their creativity. Yeah. Oh, I mean, I was just talking to someone who like, just burst out crying because she was flipping through her phone and she had been somewhere and she just saw, I could cry, she saw a picture that her son had took of her that she didn't know he took, and it's just the thought of, it's enough to bring me to tears, you know, like it just everything has like boundless opportunities for like meaning and to touch you and you know, when I think about our, you know, the quality of like, professional photos or whatever I think about just the complete catalyst for my whole business, which was like the passing of my beloved dog. I say that his passing was like this completely unplanned, unintentional, like, confirmation of my whole concept of like, the work that I'm doing and everything that has come since then, because it was my first real death. It like close to me lucky enough. It was my end. It just happened last year. And it was when I went back to look through the archives of my photos of him. They it was the weirdest thing because if they function the way I thought they would, it was like Yes, this is what I encountered like this fear I carried with me for so long of losing anyone and him. I was interacting with it the way I wanted to, but something that I wasn't shocked by but I was, I was impressed by how intense this was, was my comfort and desperateness for the photos that were the worst quote, unquote, like, the blurry cellphone photos, right just happened to Cat catch, like a really funny look on his face with the jowls or like, you know, us laying in bed, it was so dark, you can barely see. But I remember I just really wanted to capture, like how he was like, nestled in me. And it wasn't the gorgeous, Regal ones, like, I'm so happy to have them. I love them. But the ones that I was yearning for, were not the most beautiful ones. You know, that's, I'm so passionate and sharing that because I would never want someone to not take the beautiful responsibility of taking the most important pictures of their lives, because they're too busy, you know, waiting for a professional to do it for them. Because that professional could never take the most important pictures of your life. It's only you. Yeah, and that's the thing, like, and I have had professional photographers on the show before. So I'm not saying this to diminish their worth, by any means. But I feel like it's something that people they put off until the time's right? Like, I will wait to get the professional shots to finish having our family or I want to lose a bit of weight first before I do it. So you're putting off capturing the moments that are happening, actually your life is happening. Until you get to a point where you feel like things are, I'm putting that in inverted quotes, air quotes, again, a right or perfect, which is the horrible word. You know, so it's like, taking the photos every single day or you know, every time the moment calls to you wildlife is happening. And you can then you can get your photos that you want to have the beautiful photos on the wall, which look amazing. You walk into people's houses. I don't have them because I don't know, I just don't like seeing my big head everywhere. But you know, and what's important to to other people, you know, we're all different, and of what you know, we want. But yeah, like not letting life slip by and not letting life happen to you. But you're actually experiencing your life as it's happening to you. Yes. And I mean, I know that what you're saying makes me think about how, I mean, it's no secret that the most important moments of our lives are the tiniest, like it's the mundane, quiet ones. And, you know, the, the times that we usually think about hiring and investing in you know, photography tends to be the events and, and, you know, for for good reason, too. It's an investment and it's a production, it is a thing, but I mean, I, I think about how funny it is that I'm the photographer of the family. And oftentimes on the holidays, it's the last time I'm pulling out my camera, like unless it's like a camcorder or something because I just, I don't there's already enough going on that day. I don't, I don't need more on the plate like I don't I know for me, those are not the moments that are the most important moments. So unless something trips up inside of me and I do take the photo, but it's kind of like inverted, like those, like those milestone moments are, are very sweet. And they're important not to diminish them. Like the celebration is always important. But I mean, not to be cliche, but it is it's like your life is like everything. And then the graduation. A wedding. It's like, those are not a moment that are like the meat of your life. Yeah, I just as we're talking about that reminds me of I had a guest on the podcast, Monica Crowley. I had her on the podcast. She's an Irish visual artist, and she's really, really passionate about recording. The moment she's a predominant oil. Artists works with oils, and one of her works is of the items in the sink. So she did this series of things that were in a sink because she was spending a lot of time at the sink. So it was like recording just these mundane, everyday ordinary moments. Yeah, because as moms, we we do a lot of repetitive tasks. There's a lot of things we do a lot every day. Yeah. And what how what do you feel about this? Moms making sure they're in photos? Is that something that you're keen about as well? Yes. I actually have a I have a I have to send you the link. It's just a free challenge. I'm so passionate about it. I made this like inbox challenge. It's brilliant. You sign up and you can just get through it's over three days three prompts. I'm not reinventing the wheel, I'm saying very simple things. But the point is, my biggest point is in this topic is to not make permanent decisions off of temporary feelings. Because, listen, I'm not immune to this, like, we all know, when we feel like we're having a good day or not having a good day, or we're this or that. But not taking that moment to get in the photo regularly, is making a very strong decision for yourself leader, and not only yourself, but your kids to not, you know, not being in that frame. And also, I mean, I think about my whole life up until, like, last year, I hated my profile, I just hated the bump on my nose hated it. And then all of a sudden, I looked at this photo last year with me and my two boys, and I, it was a straight profile picture. And I was like, I don't care anymore. I was shocked. I was like, not only do I not care, but I actually quite liked that picture. And it's like, imagine if I would have been ducking from the camera, you know, we're very conscious of it. You know, I think that sometimes we can get caught up in like all of the posting in the social media, but we have to remember that, you know, not saying that, to make yourself uncomfortable, when it's not something that feels good to you. But at the same time, take comfort in not all of these photos are for anyone else to see, like your photographs, or you know, it's like your visual diary of your life, you know, so. And I think that we can underestimate our, the healing we get from that as well. I think about what my photos of me from postpartum Of course, I took the pictures of you know, I've made myself up and blah, blah, blah with the babies. But those pictures make me feel uncomfortable to look at because I see myself smiling. And I know, like, I know what it felt like. And it makes me uncomfortable to see those. And then I see the pictures that I took in my lowest hours. Because I do you have that weird thing where I'll take a selfie when I'm not well, and I find such compassion for myself that I don't know that I would have thought to even have for myself had I not seen the pain of like a previous version of myself, it's kind of like, you're looking at a picture of yourself as a little girl. Like you just have this compassion that you don't have for yourself as as naturally now, which is something that you know, I feel like also needs to be worked through and I'm working through but these photographs are openings for us, huh? Yeah, I love that. So one of your I don't know whether just call it a program or a course. Sorry, is called nostalgia now 10 member membership, can you share sharing with us what that is about? That is my newest creation. And I say that I knew that I was onto something when I had when it came to me. And I did a like a mock run of it by myself. And I was so excited that I was like panic, because if I haven't I've been doing this for myself in my life for longer. So in full transparency as as usual with me. So my course I was finding I'm like this is it's just hard to explain succinctly. Right? Like, I don't think that it's people understand it as quickly. And I think that it's it can be confusing if you're not already like a part of this world. And I was like what is a way to like, implement the theory and the function of like what I'm getting at here that in a way that's like doable, simple, sustainable, and like realistic for like busy overwhelmed moms. And this is what I thought of i It's a once a month meeting. And I also have like a portal of like different resources because we have an intention for each month. And I'll add like curated meditations in it and I'll upload the video versions of my podcast as a way to like keep momentum through the month. But at the in this meeting, it's two hours in the first hour is like coworking, so I send out these templates that are just artfully done and there's like only space for three or four photos. And I put like a vague prompts in it like something that made you feel expansive or something that you want to take with you for the rest of your life or something, whatever. And you're only allowed to look at all of the photos up on your scroll from the last month. And so you've been on your music, we are an hour your were muted on Zoom, and you're just looking at the photos that took place. Over the last month of your life, and you can only pick four, which is a weird, hard, but also fascinating thing, it's just this crazy way to get intentional. And also see the scope of what happens in a whole month, I'm shocked at what happens in a whole month. And to kind of like witness yourself from like a bird's eye view, because you know that you're the taker of these photos, and to like, look back and see, notice what you noticed, and then create this thing. So you have like this visual of the that month of your life. And then we go around, and it's like adult show and tell. And we just talk about why we chose each photo. And you know, like, what that month and that intention felt like for us. And I really feel like it's such a beautiful way to check in with yourself and make space for yourself in a in a cadence that is realistic, but also so helpful. Because how often do we look back? And we're like, it's been six months into the new year, what the fuck am I doing, like I said, I'm gonna do this, and I haven't and whatever. So it's a way to like, keep you account a gentle way to like, keep you accountable, and like connected to yourself and to your, you know, wrapping up a month and saying, Okay, this is the way this month played out. And like, this is what I'm hoping for this month, you know, and to keep you sort of anchored to the moment. So like, I know, I'm the same, like, it's June, this is insane. Like, what has happened. But yeah, and to actually take stock each month and remembering that Ah, that's right. And, and I think that's important that that why we took that photo and why we chose to include, you know, included in the prompts. In those four photos, like it gives you that time to reflect on yourself, and maybe how you feeling or things that you might like you said, things you want to do that you're putting off or, you know, it's like, I don't want this to sound rude at all. But it sounds so simple, but it's so big and meaningful. You know, like, it's just, I don't know, it's really powerful, isn't it? And as moms like we're so we are so busy, and we're always doing things for other people. And to be able to carve out time for ourselves can often feel like, you know, a luxury or guilt thing, you know, but to actually stop and take stock of ourselves, you know, instead of always saying to other people, how are you? How can I help you, you know, what does this person need? What are my children need, you know, looking at ourselves. And that can be challenging, I think for for many people would be hard to say Well hang on a minute, I'm the least person that matters here. You know that we're putting everybody else first all the time. So it would open up so many things for for everybody. Oh, it's incredible. And it's you know, right now it's a very intimate group. And I will I first to admit, I am a self proclaimed hermit introvert, like the community part of any up until a year ago, the community part of anything I was like, Okay, I mean, I'm a lone wolf. I'm the person that if I was in a group in high school working on a project, I'm like, I'll see you later I'll put your name on it fine. Like not at all, but the value of connecting with like, like feeling souls, not even like minded or like, it's just people that you just see each other. I mean, every time we like, there's almost tears, you know, and it's just so to be witnessed, to be able to like speak your truth and also be witnessed by people that you just know, get it. It's, I don't know that there are words for it really, like I feel like often people can kind of shrug it off and I know that I was one of those people before experiencing it for myself. But you know, I think that that element of it not only does it keep us accountable to actually do it, but it makes it so much more fruitful and if it gives it so much more space. Hmm. Yeah. Now I love it good on you. I think that's a wonderful thing. And I'll put all the links if anyone's interested in checking this out. I'll put all the links in the show notes and that is awesome. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. Now, let's talk about your children. Oh yeah. The D so you've got two children, boys, two boys. Oh boy. I'm hearing you in almost four year old caches, and then Silas is like 16 months. Oh, nice little boys. Yeah. And they are so different. So different. My first one. It's funny I, I have like, I really do wonder if like their births had something to do with how they are now because my first one was is a very sensitive, deep feeling intense, little boy. And like my labor was really hard. It was like a very, I got postpartum, the whole thing. And then my second son, I was like bopping on a ball Post Malone. And he is just a savage. She is like, nothing upsets them. Everything's a joke to him, like, different. You know what, there might be something in that because my first labor was very, very quick and intense and incredibly, horribly insane. And my sense, the same is a real is real impact. Everything's really deep. And he takes things in so sensitive. And the other one ah, water off a duck's back, you know, completely different. How old? So the older one, he's 14, and my little one is about to turn seven. So, so it stayed true. It stayed true to them as they grew. Oh, hey, personality? Absolutely. They're just like chalk and cheese. Unbelievable kids. Larry sees often wonder how that happens when you've got the you know, in our case, you know, the same the same parents? How are they? Ah, it's insane. How do you find then they're coming into your world, you becoming a mom, how has that affected the way you see things in your photography? I feel that they've definitely, it's like a, I don't know, it's making me think about like a magnifying glass like, wood on concrete. With the sudden I get it feels like a very acute, like heightened everything. But I definitely really didn't know I didn't understand what my transformation would be like in becoming a mother. I think I had this underlying belief that once I had children, my cup runneth over from them. And I would the emphasis like, because, you know, I'm a naturally anxious person, I get very overwhelmed, but I felt like once I have kids, like that will be my world. I will focus on that. And that will be so fulfilling and XYZ and this is how I'm going to be. That's not at all how I was like, it's just crazy to me. And it you know, it sounds so naive. But I really did think that like I had a friend who had a baby who, you know, she was very much on the fence and didn't know if she ever wanted one. And then when she did she was just on genuinely on cloud nine blissed out. And I was like, Oh my gosh, if she was blissed out, I'm gonna be like, correct because I have been wanting a baby for so long. Just not at all, how, how I felt and how I've kind of processed the change, but, you know, they are still like a boot camp for me. I mean, I am like, a they're a mirror for me in that. They intensify all of the best and worst in me. And I am so aware of when I'm at my worst in terms of what I'm feeling and what I don't want to project because I don't want to pass on the traits that I've inherited to my children. So there, they keep me honest, in not that I'm always you know, I always pass the test in, you know, not doing my natural reactions. I I have like a very overly protective worrywart, Italian New York father. And I just grew up with like, the most worry, fear consumed everything. And I'm very much trying not to pass that on. And I know that they can sense even when I'm not saying it, I know that they can sense that energy from me. So they're really helping me to become more aware and work through that. Hmm. Yeah, I can relate to that. That's yeah. I love that. It's interesting. I actually saw this quote, this just this morning when I was scrolling. I really want to find it now. But I don't know if I'm gonna be able to it was about the gist of it was how basically the gist of it was We're very different parents and our parents were deliberately we're trying to do things differently. We're trying to, and I'm not saying our parents did a bad job, that was the world that they lived in is a different world that we're parenting in. Yeah. What was, you know, acceptable, the norms of what you did and how you interacted with your children. So we're conscious of that. And we want to, I mean, I guess we don't, we don't want to put our kids through things that we went through, you know, being kind to our parents that are listening. And they probably say the same thing about their parents, you know, each generation learns as we go. So, it's, it's overwhelming, because it's like, it's everywhere. Like, it's in the most innocent of places, and the most normal of tongues, like, I think about something that'll fly out of my mouth. And, or I'll hear someone else say, and I'm, like, hold the phone. That is so effed up, like, so. It was, you know, if my kids no tears, be a big boy, no tears, I'm like, Just fucking terrible. But it's like, so it's so quote, unquote, innocent. But it is until it's not like, it's like, thank goodness, we're having these like, awakenings to it, but it's like, kind of, you know, if you sleepwalk through it, and if you just let it happen, because that's what has been done before. We all know how that goes, you know. So it, you know, all we can do is the best we can do, but it could drive you crazy. So I think that giving grace and being grateful for the awareness, because that is the most beautiful thing. And that, you know, I mean, it just does tie back to the way I think about photography. I the awareness and the impulse and the thought to take a photo, just the recognition of like, hey, that doesn't feel right saying that to my kid, or that is so much more powerful than any action you take. In that moment. Like, you could fuck it up. You could say you could have said that and like, then they went to school and you didn't have a moment to make it right in that moment. Or, you know, you know, you thought to take the photo, and then you did but it didn't feel right, you wish you didn't, whatever. It's, it's the awareness. It's the seeing it, that is the biggest breakthrough of all that unlocks everything that comes after and it builds from there. So I think releasing ourselves of like, doing it wrong, or like should have what occurs or regrets and just feeling gratitude for like, Hey, I saw that, like, I'm aware of that. Yeah, that was a big, that's a really good point, isn't it? It's, it's really relating to like this conversation that I'm having right now, presently, actually, ironically, about how, like presence and how this term feels like this elusive like, Yeah, can't ever grasp it. Like I, I always am hearing often that like, a lot of people, I feel this I've set it to, it's hard to be present in my life. And what really got me thinking about this in a more, like, problem solving type of way is that when I would tell people that I truly believe that you don't have to choose between being present and taking the photo, I would see their shoulders drop, like, as I was anyone to tell them give them permission how to be in their life the way they want to be. And it just made me think about how we are putting presence on this pedestal and like thinking that like, it has to be this, you know, this like come to whatever moment when really, we need to just recognize our own unique ways of being present. Because it's not just one way it's not just you know, we are when we are we are and it looks in different ways. Like sometimes I think about presence. He even when you look it up the definition is like to not have your mind stray from the current situation. And when I don't I don't even agree with that. It's like sometimes presence is like, okay, like, I'm looking at the pores on my kid's face and like, really like studying him. And I'm present and sometimes I'm present and I feel like I can see through like different lifetimes. I'm like looking at a moment. And I like zoom up and I can see like so much more and of course my brain is Going somewhere else, but like, I really feel like both versions of presence in my life like I don't Yeah, that see, I can agree with that too. Yeah. Because it's like, yeah, I can't even explain it but I know what you mean Yeah. Now I'll go to a subject that I really I love talking about. And I always say it sounds terrible when I say I love talking about guilt. But I just find it so fascinating. And I think that idea when you mentioned about this presents being this attainable thing, everyone's got to be present, because everyone's telling us we've got to be present. And if we're not present, we'll feel bad about it. This whole guilt laden thing, talk to me about your, your thoughts about guilt and like mum guilt, I put that in air quotes as well. It's like, it's like a magician that like keeps pulling like the flags out of his Our scars out of his bag, it just you keep peeling off the layers when you think you're clear of it. I think that guilt, mom guilt is a very specific type of guilt. And I also feel that artist, Mom yield is an even more cute version of it. Because being that intensely aware of the impermanence of something and being able to see the depths of the beauty, and so many moments of your life, can make you feel so beholden to meet that moment there. And sometimes you're just not there. Sometimes you do. The other night, my two little boys are in the tub together the most adorable thing you've ever seen. I just wanted to go on the bed and be scrolling my phone. I just wasn't i How many times are they going to be in the battle? It's like you go through the Rolodex like I know, I know, a B, C, D E, I know why I should be there. But I'm not right now being present for me and to my needs, is to go lay down on the bed and not handcuffed myself to this moment to like, keep my energy where I want it to be to feel like I can actually appreciate them when I'm in that space that I want. And I think about when I first drove the coast to California, for the first time ever, I'd never been to the West Coast. I drove from LA to San Francisco. At first I was like, Hi. I was not literally but like I just felt I was like, Oh, I never seen such beauty in my life. I was like vibrating. By halfway up. I was like, literally nauseous and I don't think it was carsick. I was like, I can't it's too much. Like I feel like I need to and I closed my eyes. I was like, I can't see any more. I can't I can't take in any more. Like, I'm you know, and that's kind of what I feel like about about guilt and about it's this it's the knowing it's that wise like I get it I know all of the reasons why I this is amazing, but I'm just not I'm not there and I think the more that you can feel confident about choosing yourself in those moments makes you even more richly there for the times where you choose that moment you know, that is brilliantly put honestly, I need to put a put a hand clap that was amazing. You have literally summed up how I feel about mom guilt. Don't make me cry. Like honestly. I'm going to take this moment and frame it like that is just so good. You will hear this quote again. Love it. Yes, it is so hard to like to know it's like you know, cuz you sit there and you can be so hard on yourself and you're like I know better. I see this is incredibly How could I not want to be there but you Just there's, there's only so much going on. And that's it, isn't it? And that whole thing of that if we can't, you know, we have, we can't be this martyr, we can't be this completely selfless person that puts our needs above everybody else's. Because we won't survive. And it's not sustainable. And it's not. I don't think it's a good thing to be showing our children either that, you know, the mother is the sacrificial lamb and yes. Yeah, how would you want your child to put themselves like to prioritize themselves and in their life? You know, it's funny, I this quote, I went to an artist talk in when I was living in San Francisco, and it was it stuck with me. It's one of those things that stuck with me, there's a couple of those. And you know, sometimes something sticks with you. And you're like, I don't know that this is going to be good to be sitting in me. But I've had a couple of those moments. But this one that in particular, I'm thinking of I'm thinking of it's Francis Ford Coppola. And it was a q&a part of the lecture. And someone raised their hand and said, Well, what advice would you give a young artists director in their career? And he sat there for a moment, and he said, It was the most honest thing you could have said, you can't even get mad at him. He was like, I'd say, if you're a male, the starting your career, get married, have children. If you're a woman, don't get married, don't have children. Like that was his career advice. He's right. He was right for what he was saying, for that time. I get it. Because I feel that I'm in a very balanced relationship. And it's still not balanced. It's still there is not apples to apples. If we had the same night planned, and he was out, my my partner was out. And then I was out, we took turns. I'm not exaggerating, the night would be three times harder. For me. They're different children with me, they feel there's so much more turbulent, absolutely. It's just the way it is. And unlike the natural, and he and my partner, he is so accommodating and helpful when I need it. But this the setpoint the state that is the weight sways this way. And, you know, there has to be work done to help balance that and we have to be extra vocal, in my experience, I have to be extra vocal to speak for my needs. And that requires excavating and that requires, you know, realizing inequities where we don't even realize it's happening, but it is so deeply ingrained. We don't even identify them. Yeah, yes, yes. Yeah, it's funny that I feel like my children like I had a perfect example last night where my little fella was some my husband and put him to bed. And he was out. Two minutes later, he came down to me and wanted to chat and I. And I said, I said, Hang on a sec, aren't you supposed to be in bed? And he goes, Yeah. And I said, I said, I, I did hate using these words, but I do. I said, I'll tell dad. And he goes, and he races back to bed. And my, my eldest son was there. And I said, Hi, why does that happen? And he goes, he goes, Yeah, I remember when when I was little, that wasn't even home. But you pretended he was home and called out to him. And that made me get back in my bed. You know, but like, my husband is not, you know, a big domineering men. He's not like physically like, he, you know, he doesn't there's no reason for my children to fear him. It's just this whole thing or wait till your dad gets home you know, like this. This culture is you know, dead serious. Our mom you know, she might let me stay up a bit longer because she's a softy. You know, it's just this it takes me an hour to get my son in bed if I he like puts a I say it's like his physical alarm system on me. He'll swing his leg over mine. So I tried to like double Oh, seven get out of the bed and I can so I'm like, half the time I fall asleep putting him to bed because he prisoner. And, uh, he, my partner will put them take him up. He sings to lullabies to him, and he's out and that's it. I'm like, Ah. And it's like, it's beautiful. And but that's the thing too. Like, what the girl it's like, sometimes I love it. I always used to think before I had kids. I'm like, How precious is it that they only want mommy? Now I'm like, wow. Oh, no. And sometimes I love it. And sometimes I hate it and that's fine. That was like when, when the boys were little they they often they say dad dad first, like, that's easier for a child to pronounce. Oh, when's he gonna say mom? When's he gonna? Like he says, Mom, and then he never stopped saying that kid is saying, Well, that's what we feel about my, my youngest walking, everyone's like, is he walking yet and we're like, we don't want him. Like, he'll be walking the rest of his life. It's a new world for us, like we joke about like kicking his knees out from under a cake curl and maybe ctrl T. Yeah, look, I love the way that this conversation has become, I know we're being quite light hearted. But it's, it's true. Like, there is nothing wrong with saying, I need a break in this situation, whatever the situation is, and not feeling guilty about I should be doing this, I should be there, you know, this should that, you know, we put on ourselves because of the external use sort of pressures that we feel. I don't know, I keep I have this thing with social media. You know, it's great. And I utilize it a lot for, you know, my needs for my, for my podcasts and my singing and stuff. But I think it's got the way that people use it. It's got quite bad at making us feel like crap. It's got quite good at making us feel like crap questions. Yeah. You know, all these things are getting better. And like I said before, it might be the algorithms, I'm seeing a lot of good things. But I still feel like there's this, we're just, we don't want to tell it like it is. We want to keep this facade up that everything's fine and everything's good. And this may be a parent's wave, like, you don't speak about who you voted for. And you don't talk about religion, you know, that sort of that way of doing things. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I think something that I heard recently brought up and like, oh, boy, yeah, it's true is it's like a a wave of curated authenticity, like, quote, unquote, real like, oh, yeah, this is this is Instagram real Instagram real. And then you don't get to see the real root. Like taking it like one step down from the manicured Yeah, I mean, and, you know, I get I get torn with thinking about it and talking about it. Because like, I I feel that just because I decide that I want to be a stand and a, like, take a stand with transparency, and realness doesn't mean that someone else should have to do that. So I, you know, people have very different levels of like, comfortability and privacy. And I totally respect that. And, you know, to be honest, I don't, I don't even quite I don't even quite know, like, what, what I want from it, because when I think about how it harmed me with the postpartum you know, anyone that I could get frustrated with, like, I would know that they also struggled, but they struggled internally, which is makes me sad, too. You know, it's not even that like, oh, you only post the highlight reel, and I know you struggle. It's like, what can we do to like, just bring these conversations up, like what you said about how we don't talk about that? Because it's like, oh, it's tacky or it's this or it's that it's like what you know, what, what is the hiding? Like, what is who by whose standards like I think it's so funny whenever my friends like planning something and she's like, well, what's the etiquette? Like, whatever the fuck you think is right like it what's the etiquette? Like, no, I don't, but we're gonna go look up whatever some woman said 200 years ago. even like the right way to be a lady, you know, just like so funny that these things, I think it's just, if nothing else, this constant questioning, it's like, let's keep asking questions like, why are we doing the things that we're doing? Why are we, you know, wanting to, you know, match our coordinator clothes for this the photos like, is it a passion point that you love? Great? Is it something that you feel beholden to? And everyone else is doing it that way? Probably not the best reason to do it, you know, it's like, it's something that's right for you are right for someone else's wrong. And I think as long as we just keep asking questions and keep having conversations like this, and you know, these platforms that we're used to just say, hey, it's been like this for this amount of time. But why, like, why, why are we doing it this way? I think that that is the most helpful thing that we can do. Oh, yeah. I completely agree with that. It's just, yeah, we had I'm not sure if it made it to the to your media over there. But we, we had a prime minister, we've changed prime ministers, thank goodness. His name was Scott Morrison and he he is a dickhead, sorry, sorry, sorry, liberal people. We have a is a young lady over here called Grace time. And she was she's an activist in the space of survivors of sexual assault. And she was named the Australian of the Year in 2021. And she's amazing. She's, she tells it like it is she gets up there. And she doesn't care who she's talking to. She's gonna tell she's gonna talk as she wants to talk. And she did amazing things. And she's do it. And at the end of her 12 months of being Australian of the Year, they have a function it was Parliament House where it was at the house of the Prime Minister. That's irrelevant, sorry. But anyway, he, they all go there, the Young Australian of the Year old Australian here, whatever. And she, we have in the Liberal government in the last three years, there's been this incredible, probably longer than three years, sorry, this incredible tone of misogyny. And there's all this stuff been coming out about sexual assaults happening in the workplace in at the Capitol. And, wow, the Liberal government sort of, I don't know, sort of tried to brush it off and hide it and support it continued to, to employ Members of Parliament while they're under investigation for for alleged sexual assault. And anyway, so she wasn't happy about that, as a lot of us weren't, and she called them out on it. So when she went to this long story short, she went to this end of the year event, and she refused to shake his hand, and she didn't look him in the eye. And all the men of Australia just went, how dare she, she shouldn't have been there if she wasn't going to smile. You know, it was just this huge moment of division, where so many women just went well, good on her, like, what is he done? He's he's trying to hide this stuff. He hasn't put things in place to sort it out, whatever. That it was this moment. And even my husband was like, Oh, she's not going to smile. She shouldn't have gone. It's like, men standards about how women have to behave in society. Like you're just saying that, you know, this etiquette. 200 years ago, this woman says you have to put your fork on you on the right, and the spine goes there. And then you have these cups for dessert, like, oh, just makes my blood boil. Yeah, like, yeah, and her and by her behaving in that way, it's caused this huge arrow, and it's done exactly what the women needed and wanted and it's brought it into the forefront. You know, she was so brave to do that, you know, just don't play Happy Families and don't think that everything's fine. And just smile and get on with life, like women have had to do for hundreds and hundreds of years. And, you know, oh, sorry. No, I think incredible to me, even if, even if he didn't have this huge scandal out and all of these very valid reasons. Even if it was something private that happened that no one else knew about. You don't want to shake someone's hand. You know what the funniest thing was? Probably 12 months before that. We had, we had a lot of big fires over here. We had a really bad fire season. And the prime minister went to okay, this how much of a decrease bloke was while the big fires were happening? He went on a holiday to Hawaii with his family. So everyone was like, He's not present. He's not here and his comment his comeback when he was questioned about he said, I don't hold the hose. Right. That was his comment. He doesn't need to be in Australia while this is happening because he's physically not there putting out the fire and everyone was like, you idiot. So he went in visited the fire grounds and went and visited the where it was all happening and he went up to this fire man put his hand out to shake his hand. And this man said, I don't want to shake your hand right? Everyone in Australia we could on your mate Good on you for not shaking his hand. Right but when when a woman does it for different reasons, but it's still women doing the men went apeshit and all we were Yes. Grown Your Grace. Just it's just incredible. I can't it's like you can't make this stuff up. You can't? Oh, yeah. Want to believe that? It's still like, I know sometimes you feel like you're like am I 100 years ago? Like what is that? What it but it is? It is? Yeah, sometimes you think the only things missing is our corsets in the big skirts, like we're still living in that world. Now I want to ask you about your it to do with that concept of identity about being a mother and, and your children? Do you feel like it's important for your children to know what you're doing and as they grow up to see that their mum is contributing to the world in other ways other than meeting their own needs. I think when I think about what I want my children to know, about me. I think first and foremost, I think about wanting them to feel fully seen. And although I mean, there is a child and you know parent relationship. i i I want them to feel like they I want to prioritize them knowing me like I don't want to have a shield them from the real me in many senses. Like something I heard one said that I thought was beautiful. And it's very simple. It it was actually do you know Dax Shepard is he's an actor. Yes. And Kristen. I forget. Anyway, Kristen Bell, and Dax Shepard. podcast as well. I was on one of his podcast episodes that they were talking about how if they have a fight, and if it's not like they go out of their way to fight in front of their kids, but like, if they have a fight, and they witness in any way or arguing or whatever, they make sure that they also witnessed the resolution and the working through it. It's just like this level of transparency of like, and just knowing like, knowing having my kids know who I really am is important to me, way more than them feeling like that their mom contributed, like whatever I end up doing. That is not as important to me as like, feeling them feeling like they knew who I was, and not having them like discover things about me that you know, and, and that's always kind of been even outside of like being a mother. I've always felt like that, like, one time was a maybe a spicy but whatever. I really like, you know, someone asked me once, how do you feel about being a woman? In a, in a industry where, you know, historically ABCD and bubbeleh have? How is it? How do you feel about your feminine perspective? And I was like, I don't want to sound ignorant and I so I'm grateful to the trailblazers and I you know, there's a wealth of history and there's so much to be said but also, I am not. That is not the lens that I choose to hold with me and frame. What I do and My life and what I put in the world. And I'm grateful that like, I don't have to feel like I'm like, That is a torch that I'm carrying now. And I understand, like, what came before me to enable that. But I'm here and I'm now and that is not something that I'm prioritizing. I'm not thinking about that in that way. So I don't, you know, I don't feel that, you know, being can, beholding myself to contributing in any sort of specific way is something that resonates with me, it's more this like, need of feeling truly seen and being able to say the things that I struggle to say, but I find the words for like, the other day, I was thinking about how, after one of my podcast episodes, I felt like a vulnerability hangover. And it was weird, because I'm always like, I always nothing different about that episode than all the others. But for some reason, I feel like maybe I said something for myself, like more strongly than I usually did. And I was like, you know, why? Why do I feel like that? And it's this idea that I'm growing so much, and, you know, sometimes our perspectives change, but like, if we're too afraid to say something, because we might change our mind will see nothing ever, you know, so yeah. And to be able to say, I actually actually have changed my mind about this, you know, yeah, to not feel afraid. Oh, well, there you go. Haha. You know, people Yeah, and it's like, actually, I've done the work, and I've gone through things, and I've experienced life. And now actually, I feel like this, there's, again, no shame in saying stuff like that. Exactly. And having your children bear witness to that, like, could enable them to, you know, maybe not have such a go with their, with their pride and being able to do the same. So, yeah, so that is like, my number one priority for for whatever my kids can see or think of me is just to see the wholeness of, of what I am. Yeah, I really love that. Baby's really, really lovely. I really love that. So that's the thing, like, I feel like, it's sort of related to times when you'd go to funerals for older relatives, and you discover that they did this, that and the other and, like, Ah, I wish I'd have known that. So I could have asked them about it, you know, saying like, I don't know, I, in my eye, again, challenging the cultural norms, this is what it was at the time, you know, my parents, they would hide, you know, certain conversations from us, and probably for good reason, you know, your child, you don't need to know things, but then that still happens a lot in my life now. And I think that's because of the way my parents were raised, to keep things hidden, you know, children are seen and not heard all this sort of, like I said before, about, you know, you don't talk about your political choices. I could not like my dad and I have the best talk about politics. You know, I could not imagine going through my life not having a sounding board for talking about politics, you know, and for my children to, you know, to grow up understanding about the world, you know, there's things that you do want to talk to them about, you know, and not just hideaway or don't talk about that, you know, again, I respect you know, people were living in different times you know, I'm not I'm not bragging that that was the way it was then. But yeah, and I think that's a really powerful thing to say that you want your children to to really see you and to know you as a person and I think that's that's awesome. Yeah. Thank you Do you have anything else that you want to share that maybe you haven't brought up or anything else that's on your mind? You want to know it's just this has been a very juicy conversation. It's been great. It's just so it's so incredible to me. I mean, that I'm able to connect with you on the other side of the world you know, and like we have, we have a lot in common tell you when in a short time, like I feel like we have more in common than we've even uncovered. Just how important this all is. And I think that, you know, something that I saw today, and it makes me think about, right, I'm just thinking about it now. And I'll just say it, I'm, I, I'm in a mastermind with Amber Lee strim. She's a, she's a business coach. And she's really incredible. And she, she said something, she posted something in one of the captions, and it was like, talking about how she put on this, this in person events, when she was going through a time in her business, and, you know, and she was brave enough to do it. And then she did it year after year, and it grew and grew. But at the end, she was saying that, like, even if you're not in the place to, you know, put on inventory, you don't have the resources to XYZ, like, we have such a powerful stage, like every post, every podcast episode, every thing you create has such a world of opportunity attached to it and like could really be the thing that like, helps, and changes and does whatever we just did, and like. And even if it's a needle at a time, it's like the compounding effects of this work is incredible. I mean, it's just like, I've been at this for a year. And you know, I can say that it's been a very slow burn, but at the same time, like the, the consistency and being like this tapped into myself, and the work I'm putting out and being able to make these connections has, you know, I can feel like, oh, you know, look at the numbers and think one thing, but then if I really pull myself up and look back and understand like the body of work, and the connections and the discoveries and the transformations I've gone through, it's it's really incredible. So I just want to thank you for being being a stand for this as well. And like creating the work that you do and connecting with all the incredible artists, I'm honored to be a part of your show. Oh, thank you. That's so kind of you to say and yeah, likewise, yeah. I don't know, I just, I feel like I feel the same way. We're all collectively contributing, contributing to a movement, I feel like things are really happening. And this is the time we'll look back on this time and go, you know, this was a significant period of our lives and, you know, society, Western society, in generals life, and we're a part of it, I feel like, you know, and I think that's the thing, because, perhaps previously, because of the work, the way the world was set up, there wasn't the internet or whatever, when someone did something, it was a big deal. Now, because we've all collectively got this access to, you know, the internet, we can do podcasts, we can do blogs, all this stuff, because there are so many people doing it. The reach might not be as broad. But that's the difference. There are so many people doing it now. You know, I feel like, you know, there's momentum in this and I just got goose bumps. If I get like, we are a ship, we are the ship, like you know, a thing isn't a thing until it's a thing. And then enough people I was just listening to. I think he's so cool. His name is Jeff Goins. He's a writer, and he has a podcast called he creator. And he was just talking about how you know, a thing isn't even a thing until someone comes up with it. And it's really weird at first because it's not an a thing. And then enough people believe it, and all of a sudden, that's the norm. And then, you know, and it's like, it's so true. And that's what, you know, all of these norms that we're combating through, like pulling the veil off, you know, that we are not separate from that we are we are doing the work on the ground floor of that. And I think it's so important. It's so incredible. And also, you know, even though it definitely is a, you know, the big pond a bunch, a little fish type of thing in some way, you know, leaning into who we truly are and like own the more we own ourselves, the more powerful we can be for whoever does find us and all of a sudden binge, like, oh my gosh, you were the vehicle that I needed this to come through, like kids. We've all been there where we hear something, and we know that we've heard that same sentiment a bajillion times before but there was something about the way this person said it in this moment that just was the thing you needed and unlocked you and you can never tell we know when that's going to happen but also there probably are no accidents right so yeah. I think you know, this divine timing like when you're ready for this message like yeah, I could tell you a million examples of Napoleon but you know, so many examples of you know, you're saying So you hear this and then one time you hear it, it's might not be delivered any differently, but it sticks in your right eye for you. Exactly. It's hilarious isn't it thank you so much for coming on Bianca. It just has been a really lovely conversation. I've just loved it so much. Thank you. And good luck with the rest of your endeavors doing your podcast and and yeah, just keep doing it. Because it's so good. So thank you so much, and I would be so honored and cannot wait to have you have you as a guest on my show as well. Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Katie Callahan US singer, songwriter + artist S2 Ep73 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore Maryland, and a mum of 2. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was 6 and grew up there until finishing her first year of College before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of 7 children and comes from a very musical family, she grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started song writing in high school. Her music is very lyric based, in the Americana, folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. She released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get It Right and her latest release The Water Comes Back from 2021, recorded in Nashville at Gray Matters Studio by Matthew Odmark from the band Jars of Clay, Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social medial followers, with them suggesting the theme for each song. Katie is also a visual artist, she studied painting at College it was her minor along with Theatre Performance. She paints primarily in oils and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our song writing styles, explore the difference between expressing ideas with words as compared to painting and discuss being able to ask for what you want. ***This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss*** Katie's website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here. Katie's music appears in today's episode with permission via my APRA AMCOS Online Mini Licence Agreement. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your company. My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore, Maryland in the United States, and she's a mom of two. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was six and she grew up there, living there until she finished her first year of college before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of seven children and comes from a very musical family. She grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started songwriting in high school. Her music is very lyric based in the Americana Folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. Katie released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get it right. Her most recent release from 2021 Is the water comes back, which was recorded in Nashville at gray matter studio by Matthew CodeMark. From the band jars of clay, which are Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social media followers, with them suggesting a theme for each song. This is a lot of fun. Katie is also a visual artist. She studied painting at college. This was her minor along with theater performance. She paints primarily in oils, and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our songwriting styles explore the difference between expressing ideas with words, as opposed to painting, and we discussed being able to ask for what you want. Today's episode contains discussions of pregnancy loss. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a helpful list of international resources which can be found on my podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. Katie's music appears throughout today's episode with permission and via my newly acquired APRA M costs online mini License Agreement, which means I can pretty much play whatever I want from now on. But I really hope you enjoyed today's episode we the moms thank you so much for coming on. Katie, it is so lovely to meet you. And to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. It's a pleasure to heavy. And like I was saying before, I've been meaning to ask you for so long to come on. Because I've been following you for ages on Instagram. And I really love what you do and your energy and just, you know, everything you do. It's really cool. So thank you for coming on. Thanks. I'm really I'm really excited to be here. Oh, you know, people don't ask me a lot of questions. I spend a lot of time with small people. They're more instructional, you know? Oh, yes. It's more of a demand than a question. Yeah. You weren't giving me some food? Yeah. Yeah. So we're about to you in America. I live in Baltimore, Maryland. So it's like it's just an hour about an hour from DC. Yeah, I had. I had someone on from Maryland the other day. And I made the mistake of saying Maryland instead of Mary. I mean, let's be honest. That's that's that's the history that's intended when they named this place. Yep. It was deeply Catholic in the beginning. Surprise. So are you is Baltimore on the Chesapeake Bay? Is that the either disowned or is it knee? The it's right, it's right near there. Yeah, so we're on that the harbor but it connects and feeds into the Chesapeake. So we're like if I drive for like 45 minutes, basically here, you're at the Chesapeake and there's a whole network of, you know, cities and things like that down on the Eastern Shore, which I think is where your guest is from. Because I did listen to that one. Yeah. When I saw that she was from Maryland. I was like, No way. What are the odds? You're gonna double dip and Maryland? In the span of a month or so? Yeah. Like, yeah, not even, like a couple of weeks. That is really cool. That's really cool. done that before. Like, have people from this apartment Australia, obviously, there's a lot of people. I've had a lot of Melbourne people on. But yeah, that's cool. So have you always lived there? And not always lived here? No, I came for college. But I was I my dad is, was in the American military. He's in the army. He's a pediatrician. And so I was we moved a bunch of places. But then when I was six, we moved to Hawaii. And I lived there through all of my school years through the first year of college. And that summer, then we they sort of relocated to this part of the world and I this is where I've been ever since. That's a bit of a different climate change going from one would wonder why one would do that. And I wonder every winter I feel the same way like, oh, no, it's happening again. So I didn't get pretty cold there. Were you you know, honestly, I'm complaining it's it's pretty moderate here. It's no it's probably but only in like January February, it stays in like the low 40s High 30s through most of the winter, it's cold for me. I'm cold all the time. But um, but it's really it's really not. We don't get like, you know, not like a further north they get feet of snow and things like we don't, every now and again, that will happen and everyone will panic, but I'm just gonna live. What? Because we talk in Celsius over here. And I want to find out what 30 and 40 Oh, well, that's four degrees. That's freezing. That's really validated. I think he's minus one. Like yeah, no, that's cold. Yeah, like when we we don't get snow like nowhere in Australia that on on normal land. Normally. Not on a mountain. Snow unless we're up high. And like that's cold like out I wind when like today it's you wouldn't be able to tell from what I'm wearing. I've got a massive big turtle neck roll jumper on it's meant to be spring almost summer here. And it's I don't know, maybe 14 And that's cold. Yeah, so like, Yeah, well, hang on. What's that in yours? That won't mean anything to you. I was just I just average what you said between the two. So I figured it's it's it's it's 57 I wouldn't be wearing a jumper jumper or Sweater Jacket. I would be I would be cold. I would be cold. That's kind of what today was outside too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's that transitional getting between between the things I find it to be this spring time, and impossible. Give so you are a musician, and also a painter as well. I shouldn't forget that. Let's talk music first. How did you first get into music and playing instruments? Oh, well, we are I come from a pretty musical family. I am one of seven kids. Somebody at one time was talking to me and they were like so when you weren't cosplaying the Partridge Family, like what were you doing with your life. But that was kind of what our growing up was. We all grew up. My family is pretty religious. And so we all played in like the church worship band. And that's kind of where we all learned how to play instruments and music. And for me singing was my primary thing. When my older brothers went to college, they took with them their accompaniment skills and so I had to learn how to you know, play something to keep me company. So I learned how to play acoustic guitar. And yeah, and then I guess Yeah, that's so we all have played music together for gosh, as long as I can remember. And I just kind of kept doing it. My brothers both still play. And my sisters they'll still saying but less formally. And or just have like releases and I just sort of took the took the ball and ran and kept doing it. Yeah, and I really fell in love with songwriting. When I realized it was like a thing that you could do you know what I mean? I was like, Wait, hold on, like, you can take a whole idea and makeup, like it's brand new thing out of it. And I just, I loved it. And so I started, you know, in high school and, and, and just kind of never, never stopped. Never stopped doing it. With you know, pauses here and there for various reasons. But yeah. Oh, that's great. So you play. Do you play? Sorry, I've just been distracted by a cat. I can't We can't if it's my cat or someone else's cat. So I'll stop now. Sorry. That was sorry, Katie. So your mind is up here too. I expected to interrupt. Like having chats with people's pets when they want to. So you play guitar? Do you play piano as well? Do you play lots of different instruments? I don't, I'm not a multi instrumentalist. We learned how to play Google Play. And, you know, my whole a public school education. Because you learn to do that along with a recorder. Exactly. So so but that is pretty much the extent of my instrument playing and I really have focused on on voice and on singing. I've had on enough teachers throughout since I was like, 12. But ya know, I've always focused on singing and always felt a little ashamed of that. I suppose a little embarrassed, but that was like, the only thing you know, only thing that I do. But you know, every now and again, it occurs to me that like, I'm really proud of it. I'm really proud of that being my primary instrument and I love it. I really love its relationship to my body and I love Yeah, yeah. So like I you know, I'm I'm in that way I play I play acoustic guitar in a in a medium minus way. And I'm a singer. That's it. That's it, I am. Now there's no shame in that, because I'm the same. I cannot play. I can play the piano just to bash out chords to work out, like songs in there. But I can't play anything in public, like well enough to play in front of people I just seen. And I shouldn't say just sing because we're not just singers. Because that's pretty awesome. But yeah, that's Yeah, I know. I'm like, Yeah, I think so there. I mean, like, the freedom to like when you're in front of somebody in a crowd, and like, it's only the singing Oh, my God, the freedom of that. Because like, you know, when you're just like, trying, it's sort of this like grinding out like, I have to get it right. And I have to do the right thing. And the time I'm thinking about is what my you know, like, where my my fingers are in the fretboard and not really, you know, coming into the song The way that I feel like it could be but yeah, that's a that's a total gift. When you get to do that. It's pretty special. I think. Yeah, that's something people forget is like, singing in itself is, is it? Like you said, it's a whole it's a whole body experience? Oh, my God, it's yeah, you know, and then with your performing, like, the connection, and the emotion and everything, like, it's not literally just a thing coming out your mouth, you know, it's, it's everything I've just loved, that I've loved. I just recently started lessons again. And with somebody that I studied with, like, eight years ago, when I was like pregnant with my oldest, and this last time I saw him and then you know, seeing him again, it was just it was a wild experience, just the difference of time. But also the reminder of just all the all the parts of your how your voice is really just trying to put you in your body. Like how singing is just really about living in your body feeling what your body needs at any given point. And reminding it that it can I just like I for you just forget, you just forget what it's like to to like to learn that again. And it's been both, like really humbling, because I forgot. Forgot all of it. And, and I've been doing it, you know, I don't want to say I'm doing it wrong. But like there have been so many times where I've struggled where like if I just remembered that would have been so helpful, you know? Yeah. Now is the series so much that goes into it. And I think that yeah, it's important to say that, that we're not just saying there's so much going on How would you describe your songwriting style? Songwriting style? Um, I would say, I'm a I'm a folk singer, primarily. I tell a lot of stories with songs, I process a lot of things through song. And so like Americana Folk, that kind of spirit is definitely where I tend to land. Pretty lyric heavy. Like that's really my focus agreement on singer birth. And so what the singers is the most important part for me, we just find it because my my spouse says he was a drummer a long time. And so like, sometimes I'll be listening to a song. And like, not even, I mean, like, oh, I hated that line. He's like, What line? He's listening to everything else at the song. And he's not even thinking about, like, what the song is actually saying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What about big differences? But I'd say I'm a folk singer, who writes primarily folk songs, and sort of the way they're produced feels a little bit irrelevant to me. That's the heart of it. Yeah, yep. And I've listened to your music. Thank you for sharing your music with the world because you have a divine gift and your voice. You've got such a beautiful voice. It's like, I can't even describe it's like, it's would you say you're an alto? You're like, yeah, deeper yet. But yet so rich? Yeah, I really, really like your voice. Yeah. Sorry. Thank you. It doesn't matter what I say about it. It you have a beautiful? I appreciate it. No, keep saying. No, yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate you listening all that I appreciate it. It's great. It's definitely a labor of love. Yeah. And you also through your Instagram, you share your journey of songwriting each month with a different theme that you put the call out for you, your followers to get involved in. Tell us a bit more about that. Yeah, oh, my project, this has been, I decided that, at the beginning of this year, I thought to myself, you know, I am one of those artists who could get really caught up in the preciousness of when and how I write a thing or make a thing like, well, I have to have this much time. And these must be the conditions and this must be the place. And I didn't want I didn't want those limitations. I wanted to think about songwriting. You know, in addition to the those magic moments, which I believe are very true and real. In addition to those magic moments, I wanted to be able to work at songwriting, like like a craft, like how is what is the practice of writing a song. And I don't know why I did this. But I asked everyone on Instagram to give me their suggestions. For what what would be good song topics. And some people took it seriously, and gave me very serious topics. And some people wrote like spaghetti and stuff like that. So we'll see when I put them I put that every year I put them on this little box and I shake it up every month and I pick one out and I yeah, I build a song around it at the top of every month and I'm I'm to be honest, like a very terrible at the production part of the recording part. Isn't that making If so, but I made it like I want to be able to put out these demos. They're just demos I can I release perfectionism enough to release these very imperfect versions of songs that maybe aren't all the way work through or, you know, maybe weren't my idea, can I can I release these things in in both the spirit of like, good fun, but also honesty and sort of a vulnerability in them. But it's been like a very challenging practice, but also like a really, I don't know, like an interesting sort of study, you know? Because we've had some weird ones. What, what do you reckon is the weirdest one that you've had? 111 once was unicorns and glitter. That was a weird one. I didn't know how we were gonna get around that one. We had dating apps that was I remember that was I've never done any of that. But the people feeling like the, like the gift of people sharing their experiences for that one was like, like flooring, like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. This is what your life is right now. That was really good on I don't know what else we had. We've had What if today was your last day? That was really intense. We've had But the most interesting thing is sort of like taking the idea that I can see like, I can sort of, like feel where the person was coming from, like, the very first month was ease, you know, and so like, the idea is coming to this with like a spirit of like, I'm not going to force this, I'm not going to stress about it. And then realizing sort of just like sizing out, like, what is this? What does this actually feel like? And how does it work within me? So like, with ease, like others, and nothing, there is not an easy boat. I'm gonna overthink this so hard. So like with, like, how to lean into both, but like the reality of my experience while dealing with these, you know, themes that maybe I would not have picked voluntarily has been I don't know, it's really interesting. It's really interesting and fun, and I'm not gonna do it again. I'm not gonna lie, but um talking to Mormons, but it has been a really good exercise, I think. Yeah, like, honestly, I think it's incredibly challenging. To do that, to say, I'm gonna write a song about a thing that means absolutely nothing to me, like that you can't resonate with that you can't draw on experience, because I'm the same as you. When I write, it's got to be something that I feel and it's got to be something that's, you know, I've experienced or I can relate to, I find it. I mean, I have written a few songs for like, electronic dance music, where it's, it's literally just lyrics because I imagined myself on the dance floor, and it's all very frivolous. And it doesn't, it's not the time for big, deep and meaningful, you know, my real proper writing. Yeah, it's got to have some depth, it's got to have some, some background to it. It can't just be blah, blah, blah. So yeah, that would be really hard to do so good for you for challenging yourself in that way. Again, I'm not sure it was wise. But it has I you know, what I did get, I got a song out of it for a new project I'm recording and so you know, if all else goes to pot, at least I have that. And I, you know, that makes me feel proud that like, oh, I can work sort of in a pressured situation and create something that I'm proud of. And yeah, no, I think the pressure like that time constraint on yourself, too. Yeah. I feel very uncomfortable with with pressure. I deliberately put pressure on myself is yeah, I'm not gonna do it again. It's been great. Well, it's lasted but yeah, not not returning to that. Way is the sign of the seed. He is why is this If so and says it should find his or Wayne Blasi, be this spring time, and even positive. Now, I want to mention to you it's been 12 months since you released your album, which is called the water comes back. Yeah. So you share that share with us about the experience? Where did you record that album? Yeah, the water comes back is it's the second full length album I've done and it is, you know, it was such a crazy, it was a crazy thing I grew up, like I said, it's sort of playing church music and in the church, and my favorite, you know, my favorite bands are all Christian bands and things like that. And one of them was called jars of clay. And they, you know, there were bands that I really was very, they felt like to me, I don't know how to say it, they didn't ever shy away from all the big feelings. And a lot of Christian music does a lot of you know, whatever, Christian quote unquote Christian music does not deal with hard or difficult things. And they have felt like there was a lot of permission in their music and in their songwriting style because it wasn't particularly genre, you know, sort of, and I just and they're very lyric heavy and told a lot of stories, and I always loved them, even as I moved out of out of church music and out of that world. I've always really appreciated them and after, you know, a project in a friend's basement over three, you know, over three years kind of a thing, like just trying to get myself going again, because it's been a really long time. Since I've been anything like that. I dropped them online at their info at you know, their website, email address, just being like, hey, hey, thanks for everything you've done for me. And, you know, a little bit of shade where like, I just did this project and you know, I wouldn't have ever written songs have not been for you guys bah bah bah lovey laughs and to my violent amazement, they responded, I got a response from Charlie who played the keyboard in the band. And, you know, in passing was like, you know, if you ever want to record let let us know. And about two months later, I realized I had sort of a stash of songs. And I wrote back, I was like, a thriller. Oh, he put me in Matthew, Mark, and he, he now runs a studio that they all own together, so. So they have a studio, it's in Nashville, and they recorded in it for the last few albums. And while they've all sort of, like, they only come together once a year to do like this Christmas concert, that's a benefit from a charity that they created, called Blood water mission. They don't you know, in the meantime, they use this space to do you know, production for people like me, you know, for local artists and strangers from Baltimore, who happened to send emails. But what was nuts about it was like, I emailed them, it had to be, it was like, you know, January, maybe February of 2020. And so we had our initial conversations, and then our world shut down over here, you know, all the way and so not only then were these wonderful people willing to chat with me about doing this future project. They also then we did like, Zoom co writes with Matthew and Mark and Heseltine, who is the one of the singers from from Jaws of Life in the band. And a guy named Luke Johnson who, who's in a different band at anyway, so I was able to do these things that just like were unfathomable to me over zoom in, you know, like, while the world is all the way shut down, and, and I got to go, I flew down there in January 2021. You know, everybody very scared of everything and masked and all that stuff. And but we were able to record the whole thing in a in sort of a, a whirlwind two weeks, yet. Yeah. And it was, it was wild. It was amazing. It was, you know, tense, but it was, it was really wonderful. And I'm so I'm just so grateful. So grateful. That is an awesome story. I love that. It's like, did you when you were writing to them? Did you think oh, I shouldn't be doing this? You know, where there? Was there any doubt that you were going to write that initial email? And then 100% I probably wrote it and rewrote it, you know, like, 60 times, and then I spent the next whatever how many days being like, why would you ever send that email to those people? That was so ridiculous. You know, and you think everything you do is so ridiculous until there's some evidence that like, No, it wasn't. Actually it was fine. Yeah, 100% definitely retraced this, this little digital steps a lot, a lot of times. That is just such a wonderful story. I love that. Yeah. Good Anya. And there's some lovely photos, I'm guessing that some of the photos you've sent me from that recording session. The actually that's from the recording session I just did in August. So I went back down and work with them again, I work with them again, for a new project that'll come probably April of this coming year. So we're just sort of at the on the cusp, you know, that big wave that comes where you're about to do like all the publicity and all that stuff and all the prep that goes into it. So I'm sort of like a about to be in the deep end but I'm not quite there. But yeah, I recorded a new project down there which was a lot more relaxed a little less COVID II and less less for that and just a real yeah a real delight to be back down and and there's something about building relationships with people that way and the trust that you have that that makes you know, rounds two and three and four or whatever so much so much more I don't know life giving you doubt yourself so much less Yeah, and yeah, and there's just there's so much to gain from I think for me anyway for building those relationships over time. Hmm No well done. It sounds like yeah, it's gonna be a lasting sort of connection that you've created that's really exciting. For sure, yeah. Yeah, love it there's no way to shame is refusing. Want to talk about your art as well that you're a painter Yeah, tell us all about that. Oh, man, that's a harder one to get into. You know, that is one of the ones that I studied painting in school in college. It was my minor, along with theater performance. But a funny degree I have, but it is, it's something I certainly love. And I paint primarily in oils. I do a lot of mixed media work, and things like that. Yeah, it's definitely one of those things that's fallen to the wayside a lot more, especially as I've been, especially, I guess, in this phase of my life, as in this motherhood phase. It is. It's, you know, it's messy, and it takes up time and space in ways that other art forms don't. Yeah. Man, this is, this is like, it's like, it's just, it's so it's not effortless. That's not what I'm trying to say. But it comes. So naturally, it's, it's so much like, you know, like an inhale and exhale. And it's just like, I love it so much. I love it so much. And that was when I was like, oh, man, this is this, I missed this, you know, I really miss this and the ideas that move differently, you know, in paint than they do with words or, or even with music, you know? And, yeah, yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's interesting. Because I've, recently, because of this podcast, and the people I've met, I've sort of gotten into trying painting, which, and I really enjoy it, and I just mess around, there's no structure with mine. And it is so different, isn't it, like, the way that you can express yourself? And an artist said to me, they can't imagine writing music or, you know, things with words. And I, I've struggle with the other side of it to get my point across without words. So it's like, you know, what, I mean? Like, how do you sit down? Sort of expression of your creativity? Oh, that's such a good question. I think, I think that I don't know, I'm trying to think now at the I was much better as a student at, at being willing to let the image be the message. And whatever somebody got from it, Soviet or like, you know, the the brevity of the title, letting that be the whole message, or like, the spark that made somebody curious about something else that made them maybe look twice at an image where they would not have looked twice before. Yeah, and like, you know, I've I, in my, one way that I've gotten back into visual art, in the last few years is doing these little, these little haiku squares, or four by four squares that I, you know, sort of abstractly paint and then sort of build on with whatever I have around, you know, the, the glue or varnish or like little things that I just have sitting around, and I write a haiku, you know, a 575. And I'll build sort of the image around around that. And I have these little tiny, these little tiny, you know, squares that I have that have, it's like art, but it's also words, and I wonder now just just like listening to that, I wonder if that is, like an element of me not willing to let the image be itself anymore. Because I mean, so far to songwriting, though, like, like, I can't, maybe I don't trust, you know, that the image is enough. Yeah. Or trust the view, even the consumer to take, you know, to take what they will take and, you know, and if it's different than I intend, so be it, you know, that's a Yeah, it's a real exercise. Interesting. That's, that's a really interesting idea that I hadn't even considered before. Yeah, cuz my son, my little boy, who's seven, he asked me, we had this conversation about how can you tell what the painting is about? And I said, it's really up to the person looking at it to work out how they want to interpret it. And then I thought to myself, that's sort of, I mean, that's fine. But then, are they missing the point? Are they missing what the artist wants them to say? Or is that okay, is that part of the whole thing? You know, what I mean, like, and I know, even in songwriting, unless you're extremely explicit with your Lyric like this, this this, this is like, it's no other way you could, you know, understand. You think there's songs that have been written about really different things to what they come across. So it's happening everywhere all the time. Exactly. Right. Right. And to some extent, there are lots of artists that prefer that right. Like there are lots of artists who are like, please don't understand exactly what I'm saying. Yeah, Please be misled. Like that's like, this is a silly example. But that song, you know, closing time closing time then the song is about his his kids being born. Not about a bar closing, you know, even though so so it's like a. It's like I'm gonna write this. I know you're gonna I know you're not gonna get exactly what I'm saying. That's gonna Delight me. That's part of the thing. By it. Yeah, exactly. Right. I'm definitely somebody who wants to be understood. I'm not sure. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? I don't know how big the Enneagram is over there. But I am not but I might not. It might be bigger than what I think it is. Because I don't know everything. You know what I mean? How do you spell it? E N N? D A gra M, I think and the growl? Yes. Yep. Oh, yeah. You mean? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So they're, you know, they're different types. And every type has a distinct like, desire and a distinct fear and whatever. And like the the large picture is, like, everybody's a little bit of everything. But everybody also has like, their own distinct little number. And like this is, for me, it's just it's been useful map specifically relationally just trying to like get a lot of empathy both for myself and others. But but my type is, is always wants to be understood, longs to be understood, but also wants to be very elusive. So it's exactly the tension that you're talking about. Like, it's like, I want you to get it but don't get it. Done. Tom looks so close, but pleased that he's challenged that one isn't that smelly? I mean, it sounds silly. But it but it is it's like it's like, I don't want to be obvious, but also please understand exactly what I'm saying. And if you don't, I'll be devastated for weeks. That's fine. I'm gonna do that I've never done like, I did, like, you know, the personality, like whether you're high or a J or I don't know. So yeah, that's Myers Briggs. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, but this one, I'm gonna have a crack at that one. That's really, I must say, I like I want this. I think this is why I struggle with just straight out visual art because I want people to understand what I'm saying. Because it's like, why would I do this is me, why would I do it? Unless my point comes across? I don't know that. That's that's just me. I have a very my sisters listening to this. She'll agree I have a very intense need to control things. The way I want them to read? Yeah, yeah, I'm getting better as I get older, to let go of control. And perfectionism, but it's truly work. It's truly work. It's truly work. And, and it takes a like, you know, perfectionism sounds cute, you know, you can be like, a perfectionist, but it's really deeply damaging. And, and, and it can really lead to a lot of self judgment and others judgment and it you know, it doesn't really serve it doesn't really serve and like I you know, I don't think I even realized that I was a very grown up person, like, Oh, this is actually not a compliment. No, this is actually hindering you quite a bit in your journey. So, yeah, yeah, I think age probably has a lot to do with that like aging perspective. And it's like that yeah, the best way I can describe my self is in this little anecdote from when I was five and I was singing at our school concert and the teacher was holding the microphone for me and I took a put my hand on it and moved it closer because she wasn't holding it in the right spot. And that's I sort of say that so you need to know and that same conclusion Oh, I love that so much. That's a great my five year old up here with someone take my well on that segues beautifully into your children, can you share how many children you have? You don't have seven days? Oh my God, no, no one should have seven now. Anybody who wants me to that seven, that's fine. A lot of personnel Ladies I have two I just have two kids, two daughters one is going to be nine and the other is five, five and a half. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, they're really fun, really precocious, super smart. Much more confident than I ever was certainly teach me things every day. are, you know, they are deeply Creative Kids, which is really fun for me to bear witness to because they're creative in different ways. And louder than I wish I was a kid. So, so it's like, they're creative. And also, like, demonstrative ly. So versus like, I was always a little bit ashamed. You know, for most of my life just kind of hid. I literally turned our closet. We had like a closet, where we would like would dump our backpacks at the end of the day. And I it was not big and I like that. I don't remember how it happened but there was a desk in it and I just like adapted that was like my little space do my little thing you know? Katie in a closet that's good. And that's what I was like at the chats all you need to know Oh, that's hilarious. I can just visualize that this little person sitting in the closet. Oh, man. Oh, so your girl sat in classes? They're they're doing their thing out in the world. Yeah, yeah, definitely doing their thing out in the world. And I love that honestly, they are real teachers for me. Um, and you know, and that showing me things that I I don't want to teach them you know, they're doing things that I wish I had learned as a kid versus like doing something that I you know should undo or you know, controlling them which is really a gift and when I can actually gain the perspective to see that it really is a gift for sure. Yeah, it's interesting like my is that your cat? Did your cat is you okay all right, yeah. I suppose it is a tight end I can't let my cats in here because they both got bills on their collars. So one day I was in here recording like actually properly recording vocals and I didn't realize the cat was in here next minutes again was a really good time. Oh, the nerve. I know you know I so I record this is my this is the third floor of our house. But it's like a you know, it was an attic. So it's you know to go. Yeah, let's shape it's not insulated. And so I have like a little recording like area but it's not it's not particularly sound proofed at all. And his little cat areas back behind it and so almost every single time I'm like doing a quick recording he's like is lit right now. Why? No? Every time you take scratch scratch scratch scratch was like yesterday I was recording a podcast How about seven in the morning? I don't usually do them that early but it's the time it was a Sunday afternoon in Los Angeles. And the wall that is right in front of like literally this far in front of where I'm sitting next on to our ensuite so my husband's in there having a shower and the fans on and then I never knew started squealing and I'm just like oh my god I'm trying to smile and just think this did not come through I didn't I don't know how it didn't it was a miracle sound engineering was amazing. Maybe this will stick and then I give it credit for I don't know it's like a one way sound only you can hear it to feel sensitive about it. Nobody else can hear but one like my window to my neighbor's is right here and every now and then the next door neighbor's dog will start up and he's actually if you listen really closely in because I just use the same introduction each time you can hear him man I'm getting I'm getting so many So, in terms of being a mum and having your daughters, how did that sort of fit in amongst your use of music? Were you able to you were recording or doing things or writing, you know, as they were children, babies, you know, that kind of stuff? That's it? Yeah, that's a great question. I, I always a little bit, I'm a little bit embarrassed when this question comes up, getting lost with it. I, so my life is, I mean, though, the rhythm of my life ended up being a little bit unorthodox, in that I was married very young, and divorced, very young. And, and then sort of married younger, to a much older, and in the course of that period of life, I think I just sort of fell, folded myself into a shape that fit the life he already had. So, you know, I moved into his home, and all my paintings, you know, I shoved them into closets, and I, you know, I kind of like tried to make my stuff as an invasive as possible, you know, and then I got pregnant within, you know, a month or two of us being married. And so not only was I newlywed in this new sort of life, I also had a baby. So suddenly, like, I felt like an invader, like, like, even the presence of my daughter, like, I had to be almost apologetic about everything about the way that we were changing my husband's life, from the sound in the house, you know, to, like, I was exclusively feeding her to, you know, like, I didn't, I didn't want to push any thing, or be too much, or take up too much space in anybody's world. And that, you know, then I, we had our second daughter three and a half years later, and, you know, it's kind of more of the same, it was a little bit, I'd say, a little bit more comfortable. And the idea that, like, we lived in this house, and it should look, it should look like it, we should be comfortable, existing, you know, in our space with our things, and babies are messy and loud and disruptive, and like, this is what I how I should embrace this all. But like, you know, throughout, throughout all of that I was I was playing music, in my, in the church setting. And, and that was about it, you know, I have had a few songs sort of that I written very periodically, over, I don't know, probably like 12 years. Before I really was like, I'm going to I'm going to record these I'm going to record the songs. And it was actually a friend from the church setting. Several of them that ended up helping me do that. But instrumentalists and also a producer. But, you know, all of that work is really, for the most part internal, and it's not super disruptive to a larger or larger home narrative. And I yeah, I think, um, you know, when I even when I left the church, which was sort of like a big deal, for me, that's a big, you know, it's a it's something that I had my whole life, and I was sort of trying, like, coming awake to things that I'd never really considered and, you know, ways in which I had been, that all these behaviors of hiding and of fitting a mold had been informed, you know, by that sort of education, spoken or unspoken from that environment. And, but all that work, again, was internal. So I think honestly, like, I'm, I don't think I would have tried again, I don't think that I would have started recording that first project, which again, was like 12 years of songs that recorded over three long years, you know, tediously, in someone's basement, I don't think that I would have even tried to do that had I not had my daughter's because through them was how I began to see and understand there was a self worth pursuing and saving. Not that I live for my daughters, but rather my daughters deserve to see me live. You know, and so that they can, they can do the same for themselves. Because the last thing I would want for these exuberant, you know, bright lights is for them to think that they should be folding themselves in any particular way, other than the way that they that they, you know, that they want to be. So, yeah, so that that's a very long winded way of saying I think I'm learning a lot even right now. That's pretty powerful. Isn't it like that you? You were so aware of the way you were living? The reflection that would have have on them? Like, that's massive. You know, a lot of people wouldn't even have that, you know? What's the word like a self actualization of actually, you know? That makes sense. Yeah. Massive. Its massive. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting, especially lately, a lot of this new music that I'm working with has a lot to do with. Like, the things that I, that I never learned how to do. And one of those things I've realized is is like to want, like, how to want and express want and desire and how to you know how to do that without and take that space up and be like, Yeah, I want to do that. I don't really particularly care if you don't want to do that, like I do, you know, how to, you know, how, what does that mean? You know, how can I differentiate my identity from the fact that maybe it doesn't agree with everybody else's want? And, you know, and like seeing in my oldest, like, say, I don't know, you choose? I don't know, you choose or, and like already seeing evidence that like there is there may be as evidence of, of, of my lack of ability to express one and teach one to them. So that like, you know, that sets a fire and you're like, Oh, God, I don't want that. Yeah, I don't want that for you. You know, I want to know exactly what you want. Even if you think it's gonna make me uncomfortable. I want to know exactly what you want. You know, that series? Yeah. And it's interesting. I had a conversation this morning, I recorded a podcast, we're talking a lot about people pleasing. And it's like, you feel like you have to say yes to everything, because you're going to offend someone. And that just reminded me, it's like, you're allowed to speak your mind, even if the other person is not gonna agree with you or not going to come along with that or whatever. You don't have to be worried about offending people. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because even if you do it, chances are it's, it's probably their problem. Yes, that'll be their thing to sort out. Yeah. And that was exactly what we said, too. It's like, it's, I think we get so caught up in that the response we get from someone, we think that it's all about us, just because it's directed at us. But really, it probably has nothing to do with us at all. But we're also egocentric beings that we think it's funny. Way to go listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I will send you money. While we're talking about the church, I want to mention if this is right to go there that you made an awesome post on your Instagram today. Rather than may describe would you like to take take the listeners to this and where it came from? And I guess the points you were making in it. So it's very intriguing. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, I so I have a I have a song. It's called witches. It's on the water comes back. And in it, the whole point of the song, basically, I went on this retreat in Ojai with two really amazing women leaders, once named Lisa Ganga, she's a musician as well. And the other is Dr. Hillary McBride. And she's a psychologist, and she's an author. And she writes a lot about embodiment. And that sort of is what that whole retreat was about, like the retreat was about sort of, like unifying, you know, our insides and outsides, which sort of culturally we've been taught to separate. And so I went on this retreat actually went twice. And I met this, like, sort of incredible group of women, and you just are like, you know, feminine identifying folks. And what you what I took away from that was just sort of like how all of us, all of us there would probably on some level, you know, have been burned at the stake. If we were born $500 Earlier, foreign did nothing. But yeah, so So I wanted to write a song that sort of emphasized the sort of the plight of just being sort of anybody who existed outside of a hetero patriarchal norm, and in a reclamation kind of way. So that's what that song is about. And the second verse is about is about Eve. And the lines are, it's Eve, basically the premises if if, you know, the prevailing narrative is that Eve ruined Adam. But what if the real fault of Eve was not that she, you know, gave him the fruit to eat? but that she kept him from doing the work of finding the fruit himself. And that's really her curse. Now, it's just assumed that we're just going to always do the work as women, you know, or whatever. So anyway, in the post, I had a, there was a print of, of Eve and the snake and I recreated it with a T shirt, and I drew boobs on a t shirt, and then I had an apple and a little stuffed snake and I basically yeah, just sort of parodying the, you know, the whole the whole visual narrative of that story. I love that take on it. I love that because the thing I've always struggled with, like I went to, I was baptized Presbyterian, but I went to a Catholic school, because it was just the nearest one to our house, really. I always thought, Well, Adam had to eat that apple. She didn't force it down his throat. Like that's the thing. I always just kept thinking, but why I don't get this like, yeah, I don't know, I just really frustrated me. So I'm having my little fella who's seven. Digby. He's starting to ask questions about religion. And they were teaching them about, like Easter, he wanted to understand about, you know, the Easter story. And um, yeah, oh, here we go. Like, I always just say to him, Look, some people believe this. Other people believe that, like, it's up to you to decide what you want to believe in. And I'm not like, I don't eat meat. And I don't force that on anyone else. My family like religion, I'm not going to force that on anyone else. My politics, my politics, I do kind of, I don't want to say I force it on them, but I make them understand things. That, you know, it's up to everyone to decide what they want to do. And then I think that respect to allow people to make the choices either way, you know, to be to live in a society that we can allow, you know, differences and not allow that to divide us. So violently, I guess, it goes back to what we were saying about the wanting like, can I say what I want and be interested both in like my own sense of self and the other person's sense of self that like, I can separate those two things that what and separate myself from my ego, like, No, I am not the center of the universe, it does not, you know, my center doesn't have to be their center and and is still valid, even if it's only mine. And that's such a that's such a hard thing. Yeah, to learn. And it's so great that you're telling your kids that now you know what I mean? All the things they don't have to unlearn later. It's really important to a lot and I mean, I'm sure there's gonna be something there. So I'm sure probably politics, but but on politics, but I do want to make sure you've got your midterm elections coming up shortly. And I love the posts that you're sharing around that there was the the advertisement where the little girl, she's 11 or 12. And she comes up to the counter and says, Oh, I've heard you've got babies for adoption. And the lady says, Oh, you're too young to adopt. And she's like, but I'm old enough to have a baby. And it's like, this the ludicrous see, like, I I'm, I don't know, I find it really. I feel very compassionate. I feel a lot of love for you guys over there. What? What is going on? Feel for women over there particularly? Just got it makes me so cross? Yeah. And I can't imagine won't be like living living that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I am in an incredibly privileged position in that, like, that is not a choice at this point in my life that I'd have to make, you know, I, but, you know, I, I'll tell you, when I, when I lost a pregnancy was probably the most affirming experience of choice I've ever had, you know, because you realize how much you do want something. And, and, you know, and then if I want something this much, what's the equal and opposite, you know, the opposite might be somebody really doesn't and shouldn't have to, shouldn't have to, and shouldn't be able to make a choice, a choice for themselves and, you know, in our, in our culture is so rot and so racially fraught, and, and so much of our politics have to do with, with with class and with with money and who has it and who doesn't, and, and that, you know, this is just another example of how the people with the least who have been sort of forced to have the least over the course of our of our country's history are going to suffer the most again, you know, and this is just another example. Yeah, it's a really that's really tough and, you know, I live in a state that's primarily choice leaning, and sort of is almost never at risk for not not being that way. So again, that's an incredible privilege I have, you know, like, I don't really have to worry about my immediate surroundings and friends here, but there, there are plenty of other places not very far away that don't have that. Yeah, it's just I just, I find it really unfathomable, like, and I'm not throwing shade on America at all. I'm just saying it's like, it just seems to me like such a basic, right. I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And it's perpetuated by white men, you know, like this thing have been? I feel like we've gone from you know, Adam, Wyoming to another. It's just it's. And I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And anyway, if you're in America, and you can vote, go vote and make your vote count, please. Yeah, please. Now it's time to register like now that the registration is going to start closing. So yeah. So when is it? When's the actual day? Like, when can you do go on one day and vote over there? Is that what you can I just got my early ballot, if I wanted to use that I could send it in. I just got it this week. So I could send that in starting I think now and then it might be next week. I think it's the two weeks preceding because November. I want to say that A is that right? Yep. The eighth is our election day. Yeah. Rados is usually the first Tuesday. That's what it is this year. Yeah, a lot of you know, a lot of important motions on a lot of ballots. It's midterms, and so people don't vote as much. So if you're, you know, if you're American, please, please vote in this midterm election. It's really important. And you guys you like over here we have to vote like it's the law to vote. No. Yeah. Which has its own sort of ups and downs on either side. Yeah, but over there, you get to choose if you vote, which has its own ups and downs as well. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's so complicated, isn't it by like people being limited by whether or not they can vote with our felony laws and things like that. And also just like, just a fundamental discrimination, like ID laws, and there's all sorts there's all sorts, like, keep people from voting here too. So it's almost like people are afraid. Well, that's the reason for everything. Isn't it? Like the fear? Yeah. Yeah, that people vote really then. Where does power go? And the powers and the people that were supposed to be? Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to watch. So all the best I'll be looking out for you guys. I'm sorry, that sounded very flippant, ya know, that we will. Back to you as as a mother, you've talked about how your choices that you made how you're going to live your life, were really influenced by your children, do you find that your, your writing your music is heavily influenced by your children is think I don't particularly separate my identities out anymore? I think that I, you know, I struggled with this on my, my elbow and the water comes back because I felt like, you know, I have a song that is about that, that miscarriage experience. And I remember being like, I don't want people to dismiss this song. Because it's about you know, like, a woman's issue, or whatever. Because in my mind, it's not a woman's issue, you know, like, it's, that's just like, that's a consequence of being a person, you know, and I didn't make that baby myself. You know, I didn't do that alone. It's not just my it's not just my issue to deal with. And and, yeah, so I felt like a little bit of like a conflict, you know, in that, like, I'm gonna write about who I am and who I am includes being a woman and includes being a mother and includes like, acknowledging that I have those roles. And I'm not gonna like pretend like I don't because they're really important parts of my life. They dominate most of my time, you know? But those I feel like a lot of women have to pretend like it's not the case like when they're writing and and like maybe that's a choice. Maybe, maybe, you know, maybe, you know, either other songwriters are like, this is my way of reclaiming, you know, Have an individual identity as to right, Mr. Not right about them. Not like them. But because my, my, the way that I write and what I write about is so immediate, and often very responsive to where I am in my, you know, environment and circumstance, then they show up, they keep showing up those girls. And maybe not like overtly like, this is the song about my daughter. Because only country singers can get away with that, but but, ya know, they definitely show up. And again, I don't I don't think that I would write honestly, in a lot of ways and in the same ways had they have they? Had they not been a part of my life, even when the songs are not about them overtly. presence has informed, you know, that the song exists. Yeah, for me. Yeah, that makes sense. Makes sense? Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. Because you literally, you are a different person. Like, to the person that didn't have children? Yeah, yeah, for better or for worse. Yeah. So talking about their identity. When you became a mum? Did you have like a big profound shift that maybe you were losing a part of yourself? Or was it all like a positive? I'm gaining this part? Like, how did you sort of go through that experience? I heard, it's such a funny part of my life. It's such a funny part of life. Because I think that because of the way that my life had shifted so dramatically, and that small window of time, my husband and I almost didn't date, even, like, we just like loops are married. And so my daughter came so soon after, you know, I, so he was the mayor of, so he was my, he was my boss, I worked in a wine shop, and he was my boss. And so we got married, and obviously, I stopped working immediately. And my thought was, like, Oh, I'm gonna find a job, whatever. And then I got pregnant. And I was like, No, hire me. I believe, again. So I stayed home for those nine months, and I was pregnant. And I felt a little wayward for sure. Like, what am I doing? And I felt a lot of shame. Like, I have to be better busy myself with a lot of little projects, you know? So that it looks like I'm doing some things that nobody can look at me and say that I'm not basically, I was unaccustomed to not doing and so I decided, you know, so like, I wrote for a little column, a little wine column and a little, a little flat like website, and I, you know, made a lot of art. And I didn't nursing didn't think. But, you know, I think I was so relieved to have as big a project as a newborn. Yeah. Because, yeah, because when you have that, nobody can look at you and say, You're not doing enough. You know, you have a kid, and a little small person. And, and I adopted the most of the work. I think now looking back, probably because I could then be like, Look at look at it. And I'm going to be the best, you know, housewife, and I'm also going to have this newborn strapped to me as I do it, and what are you going to do, then? You know, you gotta tell me now I'm not doing enough and yeah, so I think it wasn't that motherhood made my identity. I you know, I hear a lot of women say this, that their identity felt challenged or taken from them by motherhood, I think that I adopted a whole persona role. So that I, so that I could basically like prove that I had value that there was worth in me via though those roles, you know, in that, and so simplistically, you know, but I do think that that is absolutely something that happened when I became a mom. Definitely, definitely. And it wasn't until, I don't know, I think having them I just, I just think it sort of reminded me that I am a creative being, who cannot not create and and that in order to do so, in order to encourage them to be creative beings, like I had to be willing to sort of lean into that part of who I was. And yeah, and imperfectly very imperfectly to the point where like, even now like now, now was when I'm like, Oh man, I'm being a bad mom right now because I am you know, I'm leaning very hard into this one direction or being very annoyed at them for not allowing me to this moment or whatever. Yeah, but yeah, that's again very long winded way of saying like, yes, motherhood changed, changed my identity. But I think I think in this case it is sort of was like I took it on as like a persona. And almost like an attempt to shape and identity before I really realized that, like, there was one already there that was worth pursuing. Yeah. Was that something knees sort of realized after the fact? Or you were of it at the time, do you think? I think I think it was, I think it was after the fact. I think in the moment, I was really desperate to prove how good I was, um, and how much I could contribute to this life that already existed, you know, with my, my, my, my husband's life, and, you know, this, like, big life that already existed that I sort of married into, and yeah, I think I think it took a long time for me to realize like, Oh, I didn't, I didn't feel willing to try. For a long time, I didn't feel willing to, like, lean back into me, like the identity of me, like who I am as a person, outside of, you know, this, this, this this life, and how that could be a contributing beneficial positive force as well. Hmm. Yeah. Yep. That's very powerful thing, isn't it? That's, like, really profound. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really interesting thing to be in the middle of, and I know you're catching me at like, such a weird moment in my, like, creative process and journey and stuff with this with this new project, because these new songs are all about. They're all about that they feel like they're holding me accountable. You know, they feel like they're demanding something of me that I never really walked all the way into. And I feel like in order to be like an honest person and honest artist, I have to do all this work, you know, to, in my own identity, and you know, shifting, challenging what I have told myself the story was my story here in this life and allowing the discomfort of, you know, having once and you know, making something uncomfortable for somebody else, maybe you're not fitting into their timeline or you know, all those things. Even you know, given the small little things, yeah, are stuff that I have to like work out now. On a day to day basis being like, this is uncomfortable. Also, it's good. To go through that to that yuckiness to get out the other side and have achieved something I suppose I've gotten through that. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. And like right now, it's like, I don't know. Well, we get well, I get through it. I mean, I hope so. I hoped it's much easier to be fine all the time. You know, it's much easier to be like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. But like, what if I'm not and what if I like? Acknowledge it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What comes from that? You know? Yes. To take up that space and go actually no. So now what are you going to do? No, I'm not going to do that actually. Yeah, good on you. Be with you the subject or the concept of mum guilt is something that I enjoy talking to my guests about, and not because I like to say, hey, tell me all about your guilt. It's like, I just find it such a fascinating topic. And I love that I've had some guests on that have had to google it because they don't even know what it is. You know, it's a it's one of these things that everyone feels differently or doesn't feel at all, which is awesome. What's your take on the whole subject? Matter Okay, out? Well, I will it is 100% real and I don't know if that's again, because of my evangelical upbringing. Guilt just comes net. Feeling guilty about it. Everything as recently driving with my sister, and she's just like, We're just driving along and she looked at me, she's like, stop sakes, sorry, why do you keep saying sorry? It was like, Oh, it was, you know, I didn't just come so naturally. I think I think I spend a lot of time, you know, on on the internet, on Instagram and places like that trying to sort of like, feel out who my people are, like, what are what are the places that like, Where can I find the people who maybe would benefit from hearing my music. And that's where I spend a lot of time. And there, you know, in multitudes of accounts, you know, Mom accounts and things like this. And a lot of them are pretty fictionalized. And not real representations of what it is. And a lot of them are these like, you can go in extremes, right? I used to joke like I had when I had when I had a kid in preschool. All the parents are like, Yes, I'll show up for that 10am event, and I will bring treats and everything will be great. And I will make them myself and I'll knit Everyone is fine. And then I went to like, like, I took the same kid, you know, her her primary school. And all the parents were like, competitively like, disassociated. Like they're like, What? Forgot I even had a kid. When's the birthday? Oh, no. Goofy extremes of like, Oh, okay. So I think that I have felt guilty. I feel more guilty now about doing my work than I ever have. But it's because I'm doing more work than I ever have. Yeah. Yeah. And coincide. And like, conveniently for me, like my, my two children, this is the first two they're both in school for longer than like two hours at a time. So they're both gone for a large period of the day, for the most part, which gives me a little bit of space, which means that like in this in the time that they are home, I feel like I can participate more with them. Not perfectly certainly. Because a lot of the time I'm still trying to like eat go and a few hours, you know, just do this thing have to just look the other way for you know, three minutes more, or whatever. Yeah, but definitely, I'd say that I feel more guilty now about you know, oh, I didn't take my kids apple picking you like, that's a false thing I should have done with my children. Oh, yeah. Like, if there were these things that I shouldn't have done? Dang it. But like, I always joke like, I'm not a I'm not like a I'm not a I'm gonna participate or you don't like I don't? I'm not the volunteer, you know, at the magic show. Yes, Sydney covers. Exactly. I'm like, go ahead. And I, like I hate I'm not like an amusement park person. I don't, I don't, I don't, I want to sit at the back of the class, I can watch everybody else. You know, that's, that's where I am. And I sometimes just forget about, like, the very, you know, all the stuff, the stuff that kids get to do. And sometimes I feel really bad about that. Because I have, you know, relatives and friends who are really good at remembering that kind of stuff. But there are other times where I'm just so grateful that I've given my kids the space to be bored. And because they're so deeply creative, yeah, they're so creative with the way that they use their time their stuff. The you know, the, the imagination and their ability to be with themselves and not have to constantly be entertained by me or anyone you know. Yeah, yeah. I think I fluctuate between just feeling like, oh my god, I did you know, I'm failing them. I'm feeling them because we didn't go apple picking or whatever. And like, wow, I'm really glad that we spent the afternoon you know, upstairs learning how to use a hot glue gun or whatever. Whatever it might be. Yeah, that's CDs in it. Like, I don't know, it's just there was a lady I interviewed yesterday, who said her mom can't understand why this generation of mothers feels like we always have to be entertaining our children. It's like, like, going here doing this doing that doing that. And I feel like it's what you're saying is is awesome because when I remember my childhood, I don't remember. Like my obviously my parents were there doing doing doing doing doing doing doing things with them at my you know, we were when we're at home it was like, You go create your games or you go do what you want to do or you play your instrument. You just do things and my sister and I a two and a half years different so often, you know, together, you know fishing around doing something or You know, and that I feel like that's not, that's not what childhood is now, there's always going to be something that they're doing or something that they're given to entertain them. And, you know, devices are, obviously come to front of mind, but, and even in, I did some training at work the other day, I'm an early childhood educator and I work in a kindergarten. And we were asked to recall the words that described our childhood. And I remember, like, Freedom literally came to mind, because we were free to do what we wanted, decide what we wanted, we could go out and you know, ride the bikes around. So literal freedom, but the freedom to say, you know, let's just make up this game or, whereas now I feel like there's so much I don't want to say control. But it's, there's got to be things presented to kids all the time. So I love what you're doing with your kids. And it sounds like awesome. Yeah. Do you know what? Yeah, like, even just hearing you say that like that? I love that. You said that freedom is what came to mind. But I'm not sure that that's the word that I would that would come to mind. But like my, you know, my mom had four kids after me. Yeah, well, if there was not, there was no active like she couldn't possibly take us to an afternoon activity. You know what I mean? Unless we could very ourselves there or like, just stay after school longer or whatever. Like, it was not happening and. And yeah, the hours spent outside and like, with friends getting into trouble or whatever, or like, just being out being being around choosing to do spending hours with a painting, whatever, like, whatever it was bossing my sister's around and making them like, dress up and you know, little costumes and stuff. I like I live for. I loved it. And that's like, that's yeah, I just think there's like a lot to be gained from that. Now, of course, like, I feel a little conflicted, right, as somebody who wants to be performing too, because like, I wouldn't go to my show. I'd be like, Nope, I'm not going out. But maybe that's all the more reasons to start doing things like in house shows and whatnot. But, um, but yeah, no, I love I love that I love I love that freedom is the word that comes to mind. And I hope no, I hope that that's sort of hope that's what they feel a little bit of. Hope that is, I don't know, I don't know if that will be what they take away but. In terms of you being a creator, and a mother, is it important to you. And I put this in air quotes to be more than just a mom, because we're never just a mum, but to be doing something for yourself outside of your mothering role. I think it's become more important for me. This is a conflict, isn't it? I struggle sometimes because I realize I do a lot of things so that people can look at me and say, Wow, she's doing a lot of things. And like, I glean a lot of like, purpose and value from that, that I really wish I didn't, you know, like, I wish that I could you know, spend a day doing good, like, taking care of my kids, my house, whatever, you know, like just like Elon mom stuff. And at the end of the day, you know, when someone's like, what do you do today? Tell them what I did today. And feel good about it. Like I remember I was on a I was on one of those zoom co writes with somebody and they said, Tell me your story. This was a few years ago now. Tell me your story. Like what like what, you know, who are you whatever. And I said, Well, I'm a mom. I'm like, I couldn't think of another thing to say as though like, that was the only thing about me were saying but also like, I was under you know, I was undercutting it as I said it like just a mob. So, yeah, so I think I feel like that's a I do feel compelled to do more than quote just momming But I don't know that that's like for a very good reason. Because I think that momming is a really big. Making sure the next generation of people are not assholes is a really big responsibility that I wish more people undertook Yeah, no guarantees, I mean, but but, uh, you know, fingers crossed, things will work out me out there in the sunshine. Okay, when I can see, it's important to me that my kids see that I'm that I do things creatively and more than just see it, like, I want them to know it, I want them to I tell them, you know, like I, I don't shy away from being like, I need to do this thing now, you know, I can't look at your castle for the third time because I'm in the middle of writing something you're gonna have to wait, you know, and and showing them that I value what I'm doing as I'm doing it and, and I used to like really relish the fact that I could shove everything into the margins of my life because I you know, as a mom, that's kind of what you do. And I see no, of course, it's still I'm up here, you know, it's like 10 o'clock my time like it was we all that's what we do. But um, but also like, there's nothing wrong, you know, if it's 2pm and I have a lyric in my mind to say like, you have to do something else right now. I'm working and working on this thing or like, you know, if you didn't interrupt me six times, I could already be done. And then I would you would have me. So if you could just go do something else for a minute. Yeah, and I think it's become increasingly more important to me to articulate those kinds of things. Sometimes even just so I hear them, you know, like, it's important for me to be working yourself. This matters, you should you know, stop interrupting yourself. The laundry will get done, you know? Yeah. The bathroom, giggling whatever. Like, I know that you really want to get this, that that's looming over you. But also like, that will that will not change. But you might lose this line of thought, you know, like, you might lose this green light of hot. Exactly, the bathroom will stay dirty. So anyway. Yeah, that's the thing isn't like, as a creative person, you things will strike you at any time. There's no predictability about it whatsoever. It's like, you've got to get it down because it'll go and it won't come back. Yeah, I've had that happen so many times where I've thought to myself, just remember these just remember this dish. Remember this nap? Now, two seconds later? Yeah. Literally. I even I was saying to someone the other day that I at work, sometimes I'll be out in the yard with the kids and I'll get I'm very seem to pick up, like get ideas through rhythm. So I'll hear someone doing something so many times at work. I'd be petting babies to sleep and just get songs just from the rhythm of my party. So I have to have to put down so I'll run into the toilet. I like quickly. Record. That's good. I can relax now. I've got that damn. Oh my god, that feeling is so good. Yeah, nevermind the fact that I haven't named it and we'll have like a dozen more before I look at them again. But still, it's just a relief. And they're all like, like, somehow get an idea. Do you find with your writing process? Do you get a tune? Or do you get lyrics? Or like, how does it come to you? Yeah, yeah. I'm always interested in this because I don't know. Oftentimes, oftentimes, it'll be like a little phrase with a lyric. So like a little musical phrase with a lyric. And then like, where does that take me and then often, it'll be a melody that I kind of can can put words into, but it'll start usually with like, a little line of melody and lyric together. And then they'll move from there. But for me, like, like you said, you were saying earlier, it's it really helps when you're writing a song that you, like, comes from you, you don't even like I'm writing. This is what's on my mind. And so this is like, there's a folk, it's not like an amorphous, like, I love you, you know, like, and then we fell in love. You know, it's like something a lot more specific, or an idea that's a little more specific, that can kind of guide then you're like, whatever the narrative and and tone of the song evolves into. Yeah, you said for rhythm is that? Does it really become a melody does it become um, sometimes it becomes the melody. Sometimes it's just what I hear. And I make a melody over the top of, it's really random, like, I've had times where I've just been walking, and I think I've been conscious of my footsteps and I've just got stuff. Yeah, and yeah, padding, padding babies to sleep. I reckon I've written about four songs, putting babies to sleep, and then rushed out of the baby's room quickly whittling it down really quickly. Because you can have your phone with you there on the floor. So it's like, right, right, right, right. Yeah. That yeah, it's just and it Yeah, it just, I just find it so fascinating how it'll literally just, boom, it'll be there. Yeah. Yeah, it's not there. Like it just, it doesn't. It doesn't slowly creep in. It's like, bang, done. Like, it's just a masking. Yeah, it is such a neat process. And it's so different for every songwriter. Yeah, I've been following this guy named Derek Webb, he, he started this, the reason I followed him is because he started this project, he's like, I'm gonna write this album out loud, like, I'm gonna livestream my writing sessions. And I was like, can't wait to watch that happen. So I've been watching him, him write this album, and like, you know, watching the live, it's just, it's such a different, he's much more like intellectual than I am, and like, much more cerebral about the way that he does things. But he's like, you know, his, like, notes of all the lyric options, and then like, all the voice notes, and you listen through with them. And there are a lot of those, like, you know, things that go into a story or a vocal narrative. And, yeah, it's just been, it's been really interesting and inspirational, because you're like, oh, man, there's so many ways to go about this. And I don't have to be, you know, pigeonholed by what I've known, you know, in one way, like, maybe there's a lot of other ways too, which is cool. I've got to say, writing songs has been one of the few things that I've just completely trusted my gut on that I haven't, I felt like, Am I doing this, right? And I'm that sort of person. I think because of this perfectionism, or hence, everyone else do it. You know, like, I find them obviously, I find that interesting. But as a kid, like, I wrote a lot of poetry and stuff, and I don't think I ever, I didn't care what anyone else thought or need anyone else did. Or not, it's one of the few things in my life where I've really been able to say that, I just realized that just then. I love that. That's amazing. That's amazing. And that's, I mean, like, that's such a good word. Because you're like, because that's the whole thing with Sunrise. Like, you know, there are what I think the latest data, I just somebody just said this, I think it's something like 100,000 songs are uploaded, like a day, to Spotify, or something very depressing like that. But, you know, like, what makes you you like, what's the weirdest thing about you? Like, what's the most true, strange, specific thing about you that you can trust? And that's what's going to, you know, that's what makes it worth it. That's what makes it worth it, to have your voice and share it to be you. Like, you're not trying to be anybody else. And when you're not trying to be anybody else's, and when you new a new the most, you know, trustworthy really, you know, as an artist. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? That authenticity and Yeah, cuz I think you can get like that. That number is a scary number that like just made me shudder. Listening, God, has anyone ever gonna hear me? But it's like, I think sometimes. As an artist, you can be caught up in what? What is successful? What, what is being played on the radio? Or what is whatever your idea of success is? What is touring that space? And like, Oh, I'll try and do that. But it never works. Because it's not you. You know, it's just you can't fake yourself. I don't know. Like that's it. Take anything, don't take anything else from these podcasts. You can't fake yourself again. Remember that? So I don't know. It's just now anyway, that I've really gone. I mean, to me, it all makes sense. It all makes sense. It's online. Because it's just so authenticity piece. It's like you we were talking about, like, Do your kids show up in your music, do you? Well, if you're writing from an authentic place, and you happen to have kids probably one way or another, even if it's not explicitly, like I have kids, you're singing on some level, you know, for about because, you know, in this space between them, you know, whatever, it's gonna be informed by that because it's your life. That's the life that you're living. Yeah, absolutely. That's it. Yeah, I actually had another mom I had on the podcast, say, say very similar thing. She's like, this is the person I am. I'm a mother with children. So this is what comes out of me, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Sorry. Not sorry. I'm not sorry. Actually. You're not sorry. No, you're not sorry. So your cars you can And. So on that, something I used to talk about a lot in the podcast and sort of waned a little bit lately, but I'm gonna bring it back up about this, the role of sort of capitalism, I guess, in creativity. And when you say, you know, there's that many new songs coming out of Spotify every day. And as an independent artist, it's like, how the hell will anyone hear me? But it's like, it's like, you don't create it, for other people to hear it. You create it, because this is your way of expressing yourself. Yeah. And you have to, yes, yes. And the value that you place on that creativity doesn't be come diminished, just because you're not earning a financial gain from that makes sense. Yeah. I, yeah. Gosh, boy, is that a tough one, because you, especially if you are coming from a place of being primarily a parent, and not a breadwinner, and not an income earner. You, I always feel like there's, like, I have to make an excuse for doing my work or spending money on my work. And, or for my work rather, and, and spending the time either time to, you know, because that's a that's a pretty precious resource as well. But I was at a kid's party once, and this mom was looking at her four kids running around. And she was talking about how she and her husband, you know, took turns or whatever, for to pursue their particular passions, and she's a librarian. So she wanted to really wanted this one job at a university in a position and as a tenured position, whatever, but she was going to school and she said, You know what, to get really what you want to do, when you want, if you're in this position, you just gotta bleed money. What she's like, Yeah, just bleed it, you know what I mean? Just bleed it for a while, because at least you'll be happy. And I was like, And on some level, I think I've carried that around with me like, this is, it's worth it. If it leads to that, because your kids are not going to be like, my mom was financially secure. Your kids are going to be like, my mom was happy. You know, my mom did what she loved. And I'm not sure why I'm talking about myself, like I'm giving a eulogy. But my, you know, like, they're saying, like, my, my mom does what she loves, my mom pursues her passions in ways that allow me to feel like I can as well. Even you know, like, whatever the cost, financially was, like, within reason, obviously, like, within reason. But for me, I find like, that was very validating, because I was like, Oh, I'm not the only one out here being like, sorry may get a rain for a lot of other people, because I just, you know, it costs a lot of money to record. And to, you know, and to get processed and to like to get things heard in any sort of ways, hard and expensive and a little bit required, you know, on a lot of levels. Um, you know, depending of course, on your circumstance, but I don't know, I guess that that I ran into her just a few weeks ago again, and I was like, you know, you told me she's like, Yeah, I got that dream job. And then I left it. But that's she's like putting out a better one, but I got a better one. Okay. Okay. At least there's that. Yeah, yeah. Just like the the ability to believe that, that art exists outside of money, you know, that. It's, it's a real Fu, isn't it? It's a real fuck you to capitalism to be like, I'm gonna continue making my art and loving it and doing it well. And sharing it, you know, best I can. However I can, regardless and outside of the system that doesn't want me in it. Because, like, some days, I feel like I can't crack this and some days. I'm like, why am I trying to crack? You know? Yeah, but that it gets tricky. Yeah, it's something I've always struggled with is that I'm spend more money on my art than what I make from it. And yeah, I sort of feel I find that really hard to justify sometimes, like, you know, I could have paid paid for the kids to do something, you know, like that money could have gone to something else. But then I think I need to do this, like I need to have my needs met in this way. And this is just how it manifests. And I'm married to a financial planner, which makes life really challenging. So it says, this many of your CDs, or you need to sell this thing or whatever. And I'm like, I'm not listening to that, because I can't be held to that, you know, I'm doing it because I love doing it. It's really, really stressful. To receive that math to be a really stressful message. For sure, it's very helpful in other ways, because I know we'll have enough money when we retire. But it can be challenging at times. And it's like, these are literally the two worlds colliding, you know? Listen, yeah, for sort of that. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know. It's like, yeah, and I also find, I also get quite jaded by, you know, the commercial radio and the whole music industry. That is literally a money making machine. And I sort of think, I think, when I was younger, I had friends around me like, Oh, we've got to get a record deal. We've got to get signed and whatever. And it's like, I actually don't want anyone else to take ownership of anything that I've written or recorded, even if that means that I'm not going to be on whatever radio station because that's not who I am. And that might sound like I'm selling it, I'm making an excuse where I haven't gotten signed, you know what I mean? But like, you just look at the whole Miss Taylor Swift got herself in with that bloke that held all of her rights, and then sold them. And now she's had to go back and record everything. You just think like, even now, she probably truly doesn't own her work. You know? I don't I just I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. And that's I mean, and I think that in the artists, so this goes back, I think it goes back to just recording with those guys in Nashville, because I, you know, I'm, I'm on the east coast of the United States. And it's kind of like a gogogo mentality, and there's a lot of urgency, there's a lot of busyness. And that's just kind of in the air. And like, it's not even something I notice, unless I'm somewhere else. Right. And in, in Nashville, I just the first time I went down, you know, it was it was January of 2021. So the rug had essentially just been pulled out from under all these, you know, musicians are sitting there with the band hired to do this gig. And that was probably really good for them and everything. But Alexa, several of them are touring musicians that just didn't have a job anymore, you know? And you can get really down and have about that. And that can really sort of destroy you and your confidence. But like, every single one of them was like, Well, yeah. And then I learned how to do this from home. And then I figured out this thing, and I thought why isn't this possible? And that's sort of been the thing every time I've gone down there just the spirit of like, why not? Yeah, like, why don't we try. And these aren't like big, huge artists, you know, they're, they're usually little indie people. And, you know, I just this last project they recorded. The drummer, who we got her name is Megan Coleman, but she was, had just been on tour with Alison Russell, who's a really big Americana person who was on tour with brandy Carlisle. Like, that was the tour, she was just on, you know, and then she came and recorded my little rinky dink project, you know what I mean? And so like, to be a working successful musician, means so many different things. And it really has a lot to do with your belief and possibility. And also imagination. And I think that's really what that you know, what that what the these experiences have really shown me is that like, doing the thing, and actually, my son, my producers life said this to me, when we had dinner when I was there, and she was like, you know, that you're doing, you're doing the thing? You're already doing it, you know, like, you don't have to wait for some abstract, like, successful, like, you know, Sunday come up over the horizon. Like, yeah, you're doing the thing. And that is it, you know, like, congratulations, because you're doing the thing. And I don't think I'd ever really thought about it that way before where it's like, Oh, I get to, you know, am I making money? Absolutely not. What I like to be sure, that's a separate issue. It's a separate issue altogether. Am I Well, Getting to believe that my creative pursuits, instincts and outcomes are are worth trusting and pursuing. I do get to do that every day. And that's, that's pretty cool. And you've got your daughter's watching, which is awesome. Yeah, yeah. I mean usually pretty annoyed with me but later they're gonna be like even heard about bound? There's no way to shame is refusing Have you got anything in the future that you want to mention that's coming up or anything else you want to mention anything at all that's on your mind? Oh, what is on my mind these days? I'm, you know, I guess I want to emphasize that like you're not doing it wrong if it's really hard. You know what I mean? Because things worth doing are hard. That's just it. And like today, and this week, I've really been struggling because you know, people don't get back to me quickly, or with the right answers that I want. At that moment. Like today, I got frustrated because I was talking to a photographer and I have this idea for a photo shoot for this next project. And he wouldn't just say, like, do this, this is a good idea. And every time I leave a conversation with God, I think, what's that? Do they hate my idea? Like, is it not worth pursuing? Should I trust it? And like, you feel this really lonely? Because you're like, I'm the only one who thinks this. Yeah. And I guess I guess I want to say like, get even if you're the only one who thinks that, it's, it's your, you know, it's worth doing. It's worth doing. If you if, you know, if you're compelled to do it, you know, you can't stop thinking about it. It's, you know, if it's if it's becomes that sort of like obsessive thought, chances are like, you're not going to be able to not do it. And, yeah, and to just I guess, try trust it trust that difficulty. Not not because it makes it easier. Not because it makes it easier. But because it had no it reminds you, I guess maybe of the worth of the worth of it. And, you know, looking back on all the work from the last project that was predominantly solo and really difficult. I'm so proud of it, you know, so proud. And I know, you know, through all this, like, you know, every day it's sort of this like, well, the person making the video get back to me, well, the person booking the venue of the it's always just this like, silent prayer, like somebody's going to be like, Yes, this is good. But the first this is good, like has to come has to come from me, this is good. And it is worth it. And I'm not going to give up until somebody sees that it's good with me. Not because that validates it, but because it needs to be out in the world somewhere. And whoever needs to hear it. should hear it. And so I'm gonna do the best I can to make sure that they do. Well. Good Anya. Love that. That is a that is brilliantly said. I think we can all relate to that in different ways. Yeah, that's that's really good. Oh, thanks. I'm gonna get a new project coming out. But I don't have a specific date for that yet. So I can't pitch it. But you know, if you want to follow me on Instagram, I'd love to have you there. It's Katie, underscore Callahan underscore music. You know, that's, it's pretty fun. Pretty fun over there a lot. It is fun. It's a lot of snakes over shoulder snakes. Oh, God, I think about the people like oh my god, who's actually seen this, like periodically, like the preschool teacher will like it. And I'm like Sorry. I'll put the links to your to all your bits and bobs in the show notes so people can click along and yeah, and I mean, as soon as as soon as I have stuff to share about the new the new stuff. I'm so excited about it. And it's you know, it's for people like you interview you know, like, when i Whenever I listen, I'm like a man that is exactly. That's exactly the kind of person I want. You know that I want to hear this music that's coming out. So yeah, it's about it's badass guys, so I can't wait. I'm excited. That's awesome. Good Anya. Aw, thank you so much for coming on. It's been such a pleasure chatting and I just keep doing what you're doing because I just love love your energy and your enthusiasm and what you share with the world. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. This has been a true joy. I loved it loved meeting you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time moms chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

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