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Heather McClelland UK singer, songwriter, musician, composer and music educator S2 Ep40 Listen and subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest this week is Heather McClelland, a singer, songwriter, musician and music educator based in Sussex UK, and a mum of 1. Heather grew up in a very musical family. Her family were a travelling band with West African and Irish influences, and Heather’s first gig was the at an Irish Busking Festival at the age of 6. She has been writing songs since the age of 13. In her high school years, Heather sang backing vocals for her mother’s performances and was playing in bands. During her university years Heather and her band toured Ireland supporting Mad Dog Mcrea . After finishing school Heather went to Brazil for three years, studying music and performing with some of Brazil's leading musicians. This trip cemented her decision to pursue her music as a full time career. On returning to the UK in her mid-twenties, she continued to perform Brazilian-influenced music (appearing at Festinho, The Royal Festival Hall and Favela Chic) as well as collaborating with other artists including champion beatboxer Bellatrix, Wah Wah 45's Stac, and Ninja Tune's Submotion Orchestra. As a soloist, Heather's debut EP China Mind was released in 2020 just before the pandemic hit. It occupies the space between folk and electronica, singer-songwriter and neo-classical. Her songs are ethereal and haunting, featuring her uniquely pure-toned voice and her evocative harmonies Heather’s vocal group The Sugar Sisters is a 40s inspired trio, specialising in close 3 part harmonies. While busking, the trio were spotted by the producer of Irish radio presenter Sir Terry Wogan and that lead to some amazing opportunities, including performing on BBC Radio 2 and at Royal Albert Hall. Heather has many years experience in music education. She currently works at the Royal Brompton Hospital as lead Artist on the Vocal Beats programme, which she helped to create and develop. The project works with paediatric heart and lung patients from birth to 25 years, offering a diverse range of music, including lullaby singing, beatboxing classes and singing for breathing sessions. Heather also works as a musician in residence at Great Ormond Street Hospital for children. **This episode contains discussion around the loss of a parent and grief. ** Heathers Website / youtube / spotify The Sugar Sisters VocalBeatsOnline Read about Royal Brompton Hospital VocalBeats project The vocal Beats Nursery Rhymes album Georgia Fields ' Find The MotherLode Heather's music is used throughout this episode with permission. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch all music used on the podcast. He's done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bowl antic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to today's episode. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest this week is Heather McClelland Heather is a singer, songwriter, musician, and music educator based in Sussex in the UK, and a mom of one Heather grew up in a very musical family. Her family were a traveling band with West African and Irish influences, and Heather's first gig was at the age of six in an Irish busking festival. Heather has been writing songs since she was 13 years old, and in her high school years, she sang backing vocals for her mother's performances, who is a singer songwriter in her own right, and she was playing in bands. During her university years, Heather and her band toured Ireland supporting Mad Dog McCray. After finishing school, Heather went to Brazil for three years where she studied music and performing with some of Brazil's leading musicians. This trip cemented her decision to pursue her music as a full time career. On returning to the UK in her mid 20s, Heather continued to perform Brazilian influence music, as well as collaborating with other artists including champion beatboxer Bellatrix and Ninja tune to sub motion orchestra. As a soloist Heather's debut EP Chyna mind was released in 2020. It occupies the space between folk and electronica, singer songwriter and neoclassical. Her songs are ethereal and haunting, featuring her uniquely pure tone voice and evocative harmonies. Heather's vocal group the sugar Sisters is a 40s inspired trio specializing in close three part harmonies. While busking the trio was spotted by the producer of Irish radio presenter, Sir Terry Wogan, and that led to some amazing opportunities including performing on BBC Radio and at Royal Albert Hall, in addition to writing and performing him has many years experience in music education. She currently works at the Royal Brompton Hospital As lead artist on the vocal Bates program, which she helped to create and develop. This project works with pediatric heart and lung patients from birth to age 25 offering a diverse range of music, including lullaby singing, beatboxing classes, and singing for breathing sessions. Heather also works as a musician in residence at the Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children in London. This episode contains discussion around the loss of a parent and grief. carry with me, huge huge. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Heather. It's such a pleasure to have you today. Oh, thank you. It's a real pleasure to be speaking to. Especially across the waters like it's nice to be speaking to someone it's a totally different time as well. You're in your night and I'm in my morning. Yeah, and yeah, so what what we're about to lunch. Are you in London? Where are you willing to? No, I'm actually so I'm in Sussex we were I love them. My husband just walked in the door so probably downstairs might hear him talking to the neighbors outside currently. But anyway, so I live in Sussex now which is southeast. We spent I spent a lot of time living in London and yeah during like living in a flat in London with a child in lockdown was definitely like a good like push to leave. We've been wanting to do it for ages. But yeah, so I now by now I work in London a lot. Like I just live an hour from London, but it's very much in a beautiful village in Sussex. So kind of the best of both worlds. Yeah, nice because you can sort of escape that intense busyness and sweat. Yeah, for me. Definitely. And I go to London, like at least once a week, sometimes twice. So it's really Yeah, it's still totally a part of my life. But it's very much like it when I get back to the country. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Things You just reminded me of, I'm already going off topic. We went to London, it would have been 2005 everything before we had kids. And I just felt like, I didn't feel nervous at all. I just felt like I was at home because we watch a lot of English TV shows. Yeah, in Australia. And it was like, Oh, I just felt so relaxed. And like all the accents, I found myself starting to into, like, do people's accents, like he would say, Yeah, and it was just really fun. And it's so relaxing. And then so nicely think London's relaxing night. I mean, there's no doubt that it's often when I go overseas, I mean, I haven't been I've saved for a long time now. But we'd go to Asian countries, because they're close for us. And you just don't know what you're going to get. But obviously, the language barrier, the smells are different, like, the culture is slightly different. And I get really nervous. As soon as I get in the airport, you could always tell if there's a guard holding a gun, you're sort of like, yeah, it's a totally different vibe. Yeah, London was just like, Ah, this is, ya know, it's so great. It's so great. And it's so great. It is great when you have child children, like there was a lot of stuff to do. But it's such a great place to be pre kids as well. Like, I really enjoyed this period, like late 20s, early 30s, living in London and just go into parties and go to magazine party just doing really fun, you know, just having that live for a bit. It was great. And then you have kids and then you're like, God, it's quite an effort. With my child. I'm already going out. Yeah, the organization. It's just like, it's a whole like, lane for like, this whole. Yeah, so that has to happen. The other thing you reminded me when you talked about leaving an airway, there's a show we get over here called escape to the country, but and visions of people how they go, Oh, we just want to get out of this city. And oh, it's like, that is literally what England is like right now. I mean, there's so many people that are moving from London, especially like in this village. Everyone's just like, Oh, God, country, so yeah, it's so much that's why Yeah, I I'm gonna have to do some Googling when I get off and I'll have a look at some pictures of your what your little areas like? Yeah, like it's gorgeous. Yeah, totally. The other thing I love asking people about is their weather. What's your weather like at the moment? Um, yeah, it's pretty good. It's okay. It's just like, yeah, it's just gray skies. And I think it's very, you know, you can really feel by the beginning of March, you know, we're all just like, desperate for spring, it's been this kind of really intense winter, and it was really sunny the other day, and I was like, Oh, my God, like, hope you live like, there's that kind of vibe. And then, yeah, so I think it's like, although it is a bit gray, you also kind of know that it is hopefully, I mean, it's England, so it has snowed at Easter before, but do you hope that we're kind of coming out of there, like, sigh like back end of that kind of wintry vibe. And I think for us, it's really nice, because we've only been here like, we've been here just over a year. So we kind of saw, like, you know, the blossoms coming out and like sort of discovered it, but it was very much when we moved here, you know, we were still in a lockdown. And we also were kind of, you know, just figuring out the house and whatever, just basically very, very new to it. And now I'm quite excited about the fact that like, I know that the sun is coming and like just sort of discovering this area and watching like the blossoms come on the trees and stuff because that is quite special, isn't it when that starts happening after you know, because it's so I mean, as with most people, I definitely know I'm quite affected by the weather. And after you've had like really bleak winter, you're just a bit like oh my god another day and then suddenly the sun the sun shines and you're like, okay, yeah, okay, like life is good. Yeah. So yeah, it's quite great right now. It's fine. Yeah. drizzly with with a view to sun. Every time it's sunny, you felt like you have to do something. And then you're like, Yeah, it's fine. To do like, I can be sunny and like, we can also just be like, oh, yeah, we don't have to go on these massive trips. My husband was like, sunshine and we have to go on a walk and you know, so it's like, knowing that we're in a nice place now that we're gonna have hopefully a whole lifetime sun coming in. Yeah, you don't have to do it all at once. Yeah, exactly. I love that. You're a singer and songwriter and a musician. Can you tell us about how you got started? And the meat of it? Yeah, sure. It's so weird. I was thinking about this today because I was thinking it's like I do so many different things musically in terms of my life is like, it's yeah, there's there's a few like very different things that kind of obviously intertwine. But it's quite rare almost to like, talk to someone about all of them at the same time, do you not like because it's almost like you're kind of like, oh, this is me when I do music and hospital or this is my singer somewhere and stuff. Well, this is the vocal true, like, so you kind of have these quite different, like mindsets. And then you're like, oh, yeah, it's really nice to reflect on everything. So I basically, yeah, so I grew up in a musical family, but in a very alternative way. So like, I didn't have it wasn't like I had like four more lessons or anything when I was a child. I mean, I would have loved that. But like, I had kind of quite the opposite, like really alternative parents that just did music, like so I kind of just grew up around music. My dad was Irish. So I like had a lot of like, Irish music, which is actually I think that does feel quite important because in the Irish culture, it's just so like, natural and instinctive. So I kind of grew up a lot around, like all my, his family would always just be singing at gatherings like my granddad, even when he was like 95 would be like singing into into the early hours of microphone at party, you know, that kind of vibe. So, yeah, so I just grew up with that. And then, and then my first performance was when I was like, about about five in Ireland. So we're basically traveling around and a boss in Ireland. And I had my first ever performance was with my all my family, and my mom and my dad, and my brother and my sister have more since then. But at the time, it was just the three kids. And we were performing in a busking festival. So like, they basically had to like go round, you'd go and get kind of basket and then get chosen and be the finalists on the stage. So we got chosen to be the finalists on the stage. So I have this memory of being about five and like fighting over a microphone with my brother and sister because we're slightly different heights. And then we like sang. And I don't know, I mean, I think that the whole town came in my mind and my memory there like 1000s of people watching. I mean, I don't know, they're probably a couple of 100. I don't know, like, you know, so that was Yeah, so I guess that kind of it was always like, it's weird, because it was always very natural. But because of that I kind of it wasn't like a big thing that I saw. It was just like, oh, yeah, cool, like, and then your family broke up. Yeah, it's just what I did. And then my family broke up, my mom and dad broke up. And then my mom got together with an African musician and had a few children with him. So I grew up in with like, a lot of like, West African music around me. So then that was all like, we're kind of always traveling with that. And they were working doing a lot of music in schools. And, and performing. And then and when I was a teenager, my mom used to sing. And I used to basically sing like backing vocals for her. So it was quite a weird like, I was saying this the other day, I say this gig that is like, literally the moment where I was really embarrassed about my mom because you just go through that phase when you're a teenager right? Where you're like, oh my god, mom, like what are you saying? I was literally standing on stage with her at the same time as being like, totally, like singing her songs was like, oh my god, like so it's really interesting conflict. But yeah, but then I think I kind of Yeah, it was like not they did obviously, like, encouraged my singing, but it was weird because it was like, it was just quite a sort of like, it wasn't like I'd meet someone and they'd be like, in my family, they'll just like oh, yeah, cool. You sick rather than like, was kind of later in life when I would go and do stuff with other people that would be like, Oh, wow, like you can really sing. Whereas it was just kind of like just what people did. And then yeah, and then it was kind of when I went to uni that I started really like having my own bands and like started you know, I was always writing stuff since I was a teenager but then it was like when I started going to university I started performing with my own bands and then I went I spent a few years living in Brazil and doing music there and that was like for me that was a really nice again, it was very much like kind of culture that you know, it's very on British in the way that music is very much like everyone there and it was just you know, you have no no space to be like really shy and like oh, I don't I feel a bit self conscious about singing. It's just like you sick, sick. So it kind of so going into Brazil really helped me kind of with you know, overcoming any sort of shyness and also it was a really nice it was a period where I just met all these new people, and no one knew anything about me and It was the first time I'd kind of had these people that were like, Wow, you're a singer, and you've really got some income, we want to really support you. And I had a whole group of people that really sort of supported me to go and do recording. And like it was the first time almost that I kind of, I don't know, like, yeah, that was almost like an adult away from everyone. And someone knew nothing about me that just had me. So it was like, a really important chapter in my confidence, I think. And that's where I made a decision in Brazil, like, whatever happens, even if I have to, like bask on the street, like, I'm going to pursue a musical path. And yeah, and I have done that. I mean, it's been, obviously, as you will know, is a very up and down journey, but like I have pursued it, and then it's taken me to lots of like, different, you know, places and yeah, really exciting things. And yeah, like, we'll mix and stuff from where I don't see myself to him. Yeah, so then I did like a lot of stuff with my solo staff in Brazil. And then I came back and I and I've kind of carried on pursuing that. And then I also speaking of busking on the streets, like I kind of had a, a trio that, like, I have a couple of friends who are really, really incredible singers. And one summer we were like, oh, like we need some money over summer. Why don't we just go and Bosque and so we put together this, this trio called the sugar sisters, which is very much like, you know, close pot harmony, but all very visual as well. So dress up like 40s clothes, and it was all like, so we did that. And we just like went to Baskin from doing that. It's so funny that there's these two kind of formative things in my life with busking, but from busking with them. We can't like just so much stuff happened from that, you know, like someone I don't know if you know, this, I don't know if you know, do you know? I don't know how well known he is. But there's this person called Terry Wogan, or there was an amazing presenter here that like everyone loves like it was like, absolutely like he is he's not alive anymore. This Irish radio presenter that like, absolutely like one of the like, any person here is like, oh my god, Terry Wogan, my husband's amazing Irish man. So his, his producer spotted us busking. And then we went on to tear away his radio show, and then did quite a lot of different stuff with him. And then like, just on all these really nice gigs came and so like, I just had this kind of, you know, like, where you didn't know, something happened and went from being like, Oh, we let's go get some money. Like, we're also going to risk in this summer to like, going and being like, Oh, wow, this is so yeah, this kind of one of these random little chapters of life. And then, yeah, yeah. And then I do music as well. In a hospital, a few hospitals that I've had as a musician in residence where I get to work with some really amazing other artists. And that's a whole kind of other chapter almost, but I kind of do that. And then I Yeah, and then I write my own stuff still. And I continue performing. And I do work alongside my husband with the stuff that I write. And he's helped produce, he's amazing musician himself, and does lots of other stuff too. So yeah, kind of. It's an interesting thing, thinking about all this stuff. You've done all the stuff you kind of content like, yeah, there's so many different things that you're kind of balancing and then obviously, with parenthood and then obviously, with a pandemic, so it's felt like quite a strange time. Being musician now I'll say, but I feel like I'm only just post COVID Like, starting to believe that music can happen again do because there was a period probably like a year ago where I was like, oh my god, is this life now? Are you like, are we ever going to do the cake again? No, that was a really big stream of consciousness. So please ask a question. That's fantastic. Oh, it's it has it's been such a shocking time. I mean, Touchwood we've, personally we've been pretty good. We're in South Australia. So we're quite away from like the big centers like Melbourne Sydney that have had the big outbreaks. And we certainly haven't had the level of lockdowns Melbourne had been locked downs but like we haven't had the same level of lockdown as what you guys have had over there so but even in that was just like stuff was just getting cancelled left right and center and it was like Oh, really like my phone's my cherry lips kiss There we go. Did you find sort of new ways to be to K Playing music like is it really important to you to keep it to be honest, I found it like a really difficult time because I think I'd love to say like, yeah, it was amazing. And I like, did this and I went there and I wrote this and but actually, the reality is I like had a two year old. And I, I really struggled like it with it, because I think it's like, especially when some of my friends were, you know, we'd be like, Oh, I've just like, I mean, everyone's different. But some people were, you know, having a lockdown. And maybe they felt like, they were getting using it as an opportunity to write songs or something. But like, I know, I didn't, I couldn't write anything. I mean, I mean, I tried to I wrote little bits and bobs, but I just didn't really have the headspace I, I worked. So all the hospital stuff I was doing, I was really lucky to so I did that online. And so it was really interesting taking a whole practice online so that in a way it was you know, still doing creative stuff. I collaborate with these incredible like, this other singer stack, and he's World Champion beat boxer. So we kind of had to find a way to do a whole like, yeah, online offer to patients and young people that we work with. So in a way we were like, you know, we made a kind of like, harmony and beatboxing nursery rhyme album, while we were doing these, like live streams, also, you know, so I was doing stuff with them. But in terms of my own writing, I was sort of desperately trying to, like carve out a little bit of time, but it was like, and me and my husband, you know, the good thing is, is that we were at home together. So sometimes we would like you know, maybe just have like a little jam session in the evening or play through some stuff. But then it's funny with that, because you get like irritated like, oh, I want to play this or blood or play that like so then it's like I've got so we kind of bicker through what we're gonna play. But I yeah, I just found it like a really difficult time because there just wasn't. It just felt like survival because it was like, we were in a flat, we had no childcare and I had to work and my husband had to work. So it was kind of like if I wasn't doing the hospital work, I was doing child care and a flat with a two year old who is as an only child will sit away will say not was was never been the most self sufficient child never want to go and play by himself. But you know, I mean, it's not like, not a kind of, like, entertain himself if he's now four. But he's and he's amazing. He's really sweet. But you know, it's not a kind of like, oh, it just sits in the corner with the drawers while I sing. It's like, just on that I saw a video of you on your Instagram, you were seeing Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered. Yes. And you could hear this little boy's calling out. But that is literally, exactly I mean, we had that was that was actually during that period as well. Because that would be like we'd be there. And we had a piano in the living room. So at least I'd be like, you know, what I would always try and do is I think, okay, when can I sing? So it's like, he'd be eating breakfast. And I'd like you know, have a book of like, standards. And I played them on the ukulele and like, oh, like, yeah, get my house was there but exactly, you just learn how to just be like, the seeming like, yeah, okay, later, you know, but you can kind of weave it in. And then people are like, Oh, god, that's amazing that you can weave it in and you like literally the only way I get to do it. But actually recently, I'd say which has been so nice is I had a gig last week, and I had a few rehearsals. And he was so amazing. And I wasn't like it was the first time where I would say okay, I'm just rehearsing and someone's come around, and we're just singing some harmonies, I've set up your toys and stuff in your room. So you can come in if you want to play. And it was kind of the first time that he was actually just sort of doing that. And then also we went right, yeah, I went into someone else's house. And he was like, playing with a train set listening to us rehearse. And I was like, Okay, this is this is really nice. I'm really you know, so he's, as he gets older, he's like, he loves music. And he's more sort of getting a bit more not respectable, but like, he's sort of getting more of an understanding that like, this is important. And he like, you know, he'll go to sleep every, every night. He has phases that will either be like my out and he'll listen to or my husband's album or like when we were rehearsing, he was listening to my husband the other day, like doing some little electronic triggers for some of one of my songs, like really kind of abstract part of the track that like no one would really know what that was probably listen, he walked into when someone's can't be enough, right. So he's just got this like, really? You're like, yeah. Well, I'm glad you brought that up, because there's an incredible video. And I've got to commend you for teaching your child about amazing musicians about Yorke's. He must know her inside out. Yeah, just I'll just give you a bit of background for the listeners. There's a video where you're basically playing like literally snippets of songs, even like, it's like intro like the intro could even be like, the sound of a like one drum beat or something like the very beginning of a song. Yeah. And he's just yelling out the name. So, that's that Yeah. That is like bravo to you for not maybe not doing that with the wiggles but you know what I mean? Like, I know I did. Yeah, I know it's funny my husband's like tried really, he's he's always got a carrot into quite nice music and Akira loves it. But he's got this real like memory he's got. He's like that about your to a level that I know loads of incredible Buick fans. I mean, I love New York, but I don't think I know an adult that would be able to go head to head with him. Like he's so good at knowing what the title is. But every time he will listen, he won't just go like, I like this. He's like, so what's the name of this song? Can I see the cover like so he kind of just takes it all in. And then he'll say I want to listen to something I've never heard before. But Bjork, so he knows, like to give it like, the good thing about Bjork is she's got such a big back catalogue that you can keep discovering. And he's like that About Flags of the World and geography as well. He's got kind of crazy, great, amazing. Yeah. Yeah, that is so so it's actually been really nice with him to kind of discover and listen to music with him. You know, it's been a really nice thing. And like, yeah, some of our favorites. So he's just got a real quite a niche. And at his birthday party, he is his fourth birthday party. And anyone that that knows be, well, like, There's a song called Earth intruders, which is like, quite sort of. Yeah, quite intense. It's like quite rhythmical and quite heavy. And he was like, I want Earth intruder. So he's like saying he doesn't know his friends. He's just literally like, What the hell is going on? And then he's like, and then for lights and then musical statues. He's like, I want human behavior. And again, they're all just they're dancing. These guys. I think they're really enjoying it like. Now, Nasr, he likes to get the teacher to always plays on Bjork songs and come home. So they played possibly, maybe, but it wasn't the right version, but all the other kids are just like yeah, I love that. It's funny. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That brought him a Bjork t shirt for his birthday, which was what she loves is his favorite t shirt. And we did actually send because I have a friend who's like, who works who's kind of has connections of people that have connected to Bjork. So she did send me the video we didn't get a reply, but hopefully nonetheless, she's she got to watch it even if she just got to watch the video of Akira naming us she'd be pretty proud of it. I hope so. Oh, that's great. Day from all the things that you were exposed to how could what what way do you describe your style of music that for your singer songwriter? I guess I would sort of I would describe it as a ethereal very harmony driven. Yeah, I love strings. I love harmonies. And I love music that kind of creates like a sense of atmosphere and slightly otherworldly. Like yeah, so I guess it's very, like, female vocalist, but very much and yeah, and the theory away and I don't, I don't feel like it's like, oh, yeah, it's just phone call. Like it's I find it hard to kind of categorize it in a way Yeah. Yeah. So I'd say like it's it's, you know, a bit acoustic a little bit electronic. There's kind of fragments of like electronic fragments of acoustic and staff fragments of folk but all together, it's like, yeah, Ariel is kind of what I'm going for. And it's really nice because I it's taken me a long time to develop that sound like obviously, I've worked through I've been writing songs since I was like, probably 13. And I have gone through like, lots of different phases and recorded stuff that I would now say like, oh, that doesn't represent me at all. Like I kind of, you know, it's taken a while to sort of discover like, what my voice is. Yeah, what kind of musical sound I want. And I definitely think that has has my husband he's been really helpful in like yeah, I really trust his musical instinct, but I think it's the closest to I think as when you're first starting out, it's very hard to kind of sometimes trust yourself when you're like with someone that may have a louder voice or you're working with a producer or an especially because you know, I'm very much I have done more music training as I've got older and I went and studied musical in Brazil and I did different things. But I, as I said, like when I was younger, I didn't have less than I grew up and I sang in a very instinctive way. So like, actually, when you first start coming, and you're suddenly going into a world of people that kind of have different sets of theory, and then you're trying to articulate your ideas when you don't necessarily have the language for it, that can feel quite intimidating. And I think with Taz is like he is the closest I could get to like putting my ideas out so he can start. So sometimes, for example, like a lot of the stuff I've done, like, I've got a seven string guitar from Brazil, and I like, wrote a bass line on that. And then he helped translate that onto a piano like, but he did exactly what I done and was like that, or like I've got, sometimes I've written some stuff on a ukulele, I'd like some interesting chords, and then he's put that onto a heart. Or then I've written all these vocal lines, like I love writing those layers of vocal harmonies, and then he's helped translate all of those and put those onto strings. So it's like, a, you know, so it says, directors, my ideas could be with someone that can kind of translate help me translate them. Yeah, so that's, so that's been really interesting, like us working together. And obviously, he brings all his own stuff as well. But the first time we work together, I wrote this song for him. And when we first got together, and he and I knew like that, I couldn't just say the word like love, because he's he is really into lyrics, we kind of bonded over lyrics. So I remember writing the song was very pre pre kids, when you could spend hours thinking about how you wanted your lyrics to sound. So I had like, 36 pages of lyrics to get to these one lyrics. And, and I Yeah, so I wrote the song and, and then I sent it to him. And then he, like, wrote this really beautiful, outdoor piano back and then like, sent it back to me. And then from that, then that was the beginning of our collaboration. And now like, that whole outro section just has this beautiful like, Scott. It's kind of almost a track on its own. And it's got really gorgeous strings. And so yeah, we kind of always tried to collaborate in a way where like, he has sort of space to bring his style and taste and then yeah, finding his his voice comes through as well. Yeah, yeah. So how would you describe his style of music? So he has his own desk called Taz Modi. And he has his own solo project. And it's like, it's contemporary, classical, I guess. So it's very, I mean, it's really beautiful. But it's very, he plays piano and yeah, does a lot of stuff with piano strings. But he also does a lot of stuff that's electronic in it like, yeah, kind of contemporary electronic stuff. Well, doesn't really describe it very well, but quite subtle electronic stuff in there. And then he plays with a band called sub motion orchestra, and he plays a band called portico quartet. And again, both of them are kind of like elements have elements of like, electronic jazzy like. Yeah, very cool. So I first met Taz through hearing through my friend Ruby, who plays in submission orchestra who I also sing in the trio with so fast. Yeah, so I met her through that, because he plays in the band with her. And it's like, it's really nice to meet someone that you really respect as a musician. And then and then like, and then to make a connection, because I think it's so important. Like, I feel like music is such an A part of me that it's like you really, even if you just met someone, and they were like, so perfect, but you just really like, I don't know, I know, like, I have, like, you're just on a totally different wavelength musically. Like that would be I don't think that would work very well. You know, like, I know, if I did once I once was seeing someone, and he just was just he just had a really bad music taste and like, but we just, and that sounds really harsh. But it's like, we were just on a different wavelength. And I was like, it's not. It feels like such an integral part of me that if I play your song, you just don't get it like you don't get me like so. Yeah. So it's really nice that we like connect on that level. Absolutely. It has good taste. Yeah. So that's the thing is, it's about looking deeper into things and maybe seeing, seeing why you've created what you've created. And that gives you gives you a glimpse into you. And so yeah, if people are only seeing like, you know, the surface, there's, yeah, yeah. So they're like, Yeah, it's really nice. And you're like, Okay, I don't want to say that. I'm sorry. But like, with your partner, you're just like, how are you getting like, who are you? Anyway? So yeah, we do. And it's funny with Chad's because it's like, it's a really good connector between us because like, if we're really like, if we're annoying each other or kind of irritated by each other, we're having a little period of finding things challenging. Actually, probably the best way we could reconnect is like seeing each other doing music and sort of remembering who each other is, you know, because sometimes when I go and see him playing, I really kind of just see him and I like, do you not? Yeah, if you're not, I mean, and I hear the sort of sensitivity of the music that he plays. It's really beautiful. It kind of reminds me of like, really who he is like at his core, and that's like, yeah, and I think probably the same for him. It kind of really reminds you of like that. really big thing that's like a really big connection. And like I said, we connected through music, we connected through a shared love of different different styles move through a shared love of lyrics and stuff. So that is very much kind of an integral thing for us. Yeah, so. So when you guys decided to have a family? Was that Yeah. Were you conscious of how that would affect your community? Definitely. Yeah. And I really, it's still something that I found. Yeah, I just feel a little bit like, in this creative world, you're always kind of striving to do something or to like, reach some I don't know. For me, I kind of feel like there's always felt like, I've done all these really cool things, but there still feels like oh, there's this thing to actualize. And you kind of can't take your foot off, but you can't just be like, Oh, I'm just having a total break from everything. And I'll get back to my career later. You know, it's felt so i think i Yeah, so I definitely felt I was quite scared. Like having a baby. I was quite scared about like, losing my place, I guess. And actually, in a way, looking back, I actually did things like, probably in hindsight, to say, I don't, it's too soon, but like, I think, I think I'd have another baby, maybe I would give myself a bit more space. I mean, maybe I wouldn't, but like in like, I think looking back, it's like when Akira was so tiny. I was like, back doing like a really big gig when he was like seven weeks old. And he came with me. You know, and it was this like, completely silent audience of like, in a really formal place like 400 people in silence, like watching and I'd like just been like trying to breastfeed like backstage and then I like, went to sing. And then I was like, Tas came with me. So you could hold a care. But again, it's like, you know how, when you have a baby, you're completely like, it's the one thing you don't have any control, like their timing. So you know how you're like, if you like, need to get dressed up on stage, do my thing. This is timing. Suddenly, you're like, Oh, I kind of got little baby. I'm trying to get them alive. And yeah, so I kind of I remember doing that and being like, Whoa, this is actually like, I've just, I've really just had a baby. And my voice was really weird, which I get no one told me that my voice would be weird for a while after having a baby or the hormones. So yeah, it was quite, you know, and, um, and then I also went back to work at the hospital really, really soon as well, because a really good opportunity came up and I was like, oh, so I'd like you know, I do all these things like my in laws. Well, like, they'd look after I go, I'd be expressing it like, you know, when he was like, literally, like three months old, where like, I just go, I mean, I mean, little snippets, but it's like, yeah, I really, I just didn't want to Yeah, lose my place. I guess. So. And, yeah, and I think I, I want to I wonder how, if looking back if I think like, how has it affected me? And I think yeah, it has affected in lots of ways, like having a child is amazing. And I love like being a mum. It's amazing. It's given me like a sense of purpose. And also maybe that thing that you're always trying to achieve that kind of maybe, I don't know, finding a bit more peace with that and being a bit more present to the moment because actually, I think what I like one of the things about being a mum I've kind of learned since through time is if I try and do too many things at the same times as being with a carer, that's when it's stressful. Like I need to kind of, I don't want to say I need to separate my life, but I need to like it's great. Like we say in the mornings I can sing with him isn't terrible. But if I've got a gig, like actually, I really just want to have headspace to get ready for that gig. And if I am if I'm with a career in the day, I really don't want to be trying to work at the same time. You know, it's like trying to like not do it all at the same time. Because that's when I feel this real pool and I've done stuff like you know, when you're trying to get ready for a gig and you're trying to remember all the stuff you need to take and then like your child just happens to have a tantrum then and you're just like, oh god, what's been like right types hairclips things like find a deal. And what else like doing a vocal warm up? Well, like, you know, and that's when it's like, so maybe as a mom, as I'm getting older or more experienced. I'm sort of like, yeah, like I had a gig the other day and I said I was like, Oh no, we'll just get my mum to like, come over. And she will look after him. And then, and then we'll like in the night and all this stuff. And I was like, No, I just want to drop him to London and let him stay with your mom. So I don't have to have to headspace. It's like, I want to have the day to just like, prepare for this gig like mentally and practically, like, I just want to do that. And like him have a great time where he's with someone that can just be present to him. And then you know, and then and actually, it was great. And I think his task didn't quite get it. And then on the day, he was like, oh, yeah, this was actually really good. It wasn't it. So yeah, ya. I come to you it is important, I think to not only you're going out to do your gigs and have your own thing, but you still have to, while you're in your home or with your family, you still need time to be away from them. Like you need that separation, like for your sanity, you know, just to get in that zone, like you talk about just how you make sure you don't forget something for you getting ready. And, you know, definitely because it's a totally different headspace. And I think that's the thing, like when, and when you're a parent, you can't like nobody can prepare you. And I think that you can't explain the feeling of like, when you go from not being a parent to being a parent and having a baby and suddenly you're like, oh my god, I can't go for a Wii when I want or, you know, suddenly you've got this other person who is like, totally dependent on you. And it's like, it's a real shift, like you almost don't exist, I know you're getting learn your identity. But at the beginning, it's really like, what the hell like where am I bought? And I'm just now I feel like I'm a vessel for this other person. And I don't know who I am. And it's quite a weird transition period. But I think, yeah, I think that actually, and that's, you know, and I think obviously, as your child or children grow up, then you get better at like, maybe being with that. And I'm not saying that, like, you're just living for your kids, and you're not in there. But I'm, but what you have is like, when you're with your child, ultimately, like you could be about to walk out the door, and they'll be like, I need a poo or like, it's like, that's the thing, you're suddenly in this other world that you don't have really all this control of time. It's like you're in this kind of situation where actually no matter what, you're there, and you're kind of when they're little, you're there, and you're kind of helping and supporting them. So actually, it's not that it's difficult for them as well, if you're totally being like on focusing completely on something. It's like this kind of balance, isn't it? So let's see. Yeah, and then and then when you're on mute when you're being a performer, or when you're doing that is like the other extreme, isn't it? Where it's all about, like, Okay, actually, I need to think about what I'm wearing, I need to think about how I sound I need to think about what I'm gonna say like, there's all of these things, which is very much a kind of insular, like, focusing on like, you and your identity, or, you know, like the kind of the other extreme and like, so I've had a few conflicting moments where I definitely tried to do both and got really stressed. Yeah, it's an intro. But yeah, so I don't and I think that kind of sense of identity, I've really, it's still something that I yeah, I'm sort of always grappling with. And I think some people as a parent would, you know, like, I remember someone saying, like, Oh, I just want it whenever I meet anyone, I just wanna go up and tell them like, oh my god, I'm a mom. This is a no baby. And I was like, wow, I kind of I mean, obviously, that's lovely. And it's lovely that they could see my mum, but I also want to go and be like, Oh, what's the opposite was like I'm saying, this is like, I know, like, you know, because I guess it's that like, you're kind of grappling with how to be all of those things and like, yeah. I come to you. Yeah, my biggest thing was when I had my boys, it's like, you do everything for them and you like you say you exist to keep them alive. And then when you see someone down the street or someone comes to the door, the first thing they want to do is see your child. It's like, Hold on a sec. I'm the one that's keeping this thing going. I'm going you know, exactly. And I know that's natural because people are excited, but it's like you just feel like you get shafted you just Yeah, it's like, yeah, okay, whatever. I don't know. And it's Yeah. And it's weird, isn't it? Because I guess everything, everything changes. And I think, you know, I was saying that, you know, I had a really difficult experience of pregnancy because I, when I was pregnant, my mom died when I was pregnant. So I kind of had this other extreme where I was like, also, I kind of went through this identity shift where it's like, I guess, when you lose a parent anyways, already, like, who am I? And how do I exist in the world and where you exist in the world. It's like a weird, it's again, it's like one of those things that you can't, it's very hard to explain. I think it's quite an experiential thing. But when through the loss of a parent is like, your position in the world changes because you have this foundation, and suddenly you don't have a foundation, I That's how I felt so and then, but then it was like, I didn't have the foundation. But then also, I'd kind of gone up a level because I then had this other, like, needs to keep someone else alive. So I felt like in the middle, I was like, Oh, my God, I'm just sort of like, I don't have any sort of foundation below me. And now someone else needs me like, What the hell, I'm just in the middle. And it was really difficult, because you know, my husband, also, like, he would normally be very doting. But like, suddenly, all his energy went towards our son, because that's what happens. You know, when you have a pet, that's also the nub of reality, I think when you have a child is that your partner kind of they suddenly they have to also try and keep this child alive, and you don't have any sleep. And you know, so it's like this other thing where the 10 that, yeah, the support you get from them has sort of shift or you're, you know, I don't know if you find that, but your role is like sort of shifted a bit, because suddenly, you're both putting a lot of energy into another human being. Yeah, absolutely. It's like your relationship between you has changed from the energy give each other to the energy that you both give to something. Yeah. 100%. And then you have to learn how to find that energy for each other, too. But actually, in the beginning, it is definitely like, yeah, it's a shift and like, so yeah, to be honest, like that period for me was just, you know, well, pretty, like, yeah, awful. Really. I mean, it's weird, because I you know, and it's so weird looking back at those early that early stage, because it's like, on the one hand, it was lovely. And Akira is a beautiful little boy. He's lovely. And he's, you know, so on the one hand, like, I have all these special memories, but I'm also like, oh my god, that was the hardest moment in my life, because I was just like, new mom, who the hell am I really sleep deprived in total grief, desperately trying to like, bring together my own, like, really trying to hold on to like my identity with you know, like, just that kind of thing. Like, it's incredibly true. Yeah. Yeah. So it was very full on. Yeah. I'm sorry. That's Thank you. Yeah. I wanted to ask them, he said that you your face kickback was at seven weeks. Mine was at seven weeks to you. So when you said that. But within that timeframe, where you and I know we've just talked about everything that we're doing for the baby, but I guess you would have been having to rehearse the gig like we, you were still we're still in music. You just like, yeah, I must have done. I'm trying to think of that. Did I? Yeah, it was kind of blur, isn't it? I probably would have done? Yeah, I don't think I think in that time, I probably wasn't massively, but then I would know, not knowing that gig as well as you normally they'd be like, can you learn a new cell or something? So maybe I thought, yeah, I would have probably been rehearsing, but very much like the people I was playing that gig with. It was with the sugar sister. So it was with the two other females and like, one of them also had a daughter, so they would have been very, like, you know, come to our house and like a Cadillac here. Right. You know, like, it would have been that kind of way of rehearsing, you know, it would have been sort of, okay, yeah, really support. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But I do remember even trying to get to the gig was just like, Oh, I just remember like, it was really stressful. Like it was, I just kind of have this memory of me and he was like, trying to, you know, trying to leg it to get a train and it's like, raining and he was like, cry. And then we're having to like go to like pub on the way to, like, change it or I don't know, some kind of like, you know, it's like, but again, it's like you're trying to make two worlds of like a world that existed like, you have to be here on time to time with a world that is like with babywearers that actually, that is not the world you're living is this to happen right now. Okay, let's stop everything I need to feed him or whatever. Yeah, exactly. It's an interesting time to doesn't exist the same way. It's definitely a classic world. Fragments on that support element, did you have other people around you? You mentioned one of your co singers in your group had a child was there people around you that could sort of empathize and help you out and go, Oh, yeah, we get take a bit of pressure. Yeah, it kind of it was weird because I met. Or I did meet like a lot of other moms. And my, my sister also had a few has two children that are before me. So she's and we're really, really close in age. And we're really close. So she was like a really big support. But she lived in Devon. So that's quite far. And, you know, I mean, I guess it's probably not in Australian terms. But in the UK. We think it's quite far, because it's like five hours away from where we were. But yeah, but I did meet a lot of other moms. But it was a really weird time for me, because it was like, I felt very isolated. Because I had met all of these people. Like, we went to NCT. And do you have entities you know, that like the parent like, so it's the kind of thing? Yeah, so you go when you're pregnant, and you meet people, and, and it was, you know, and I've now met people that are like, I've got a few really, really close friends from there. And you know, we all had babies at the same time. But it was weird, because it was like, I was dealing with this. Like, I just couldn't, I went there. Can you imagine this was like, literally about four weeks after my mom had died. And everyone's just, they're like, Hi, what's going on for you? And I was like, Okay, guys, like, I just need to, like, this is my thing. I can't not this is what's happening. You know, I didn't Yeah, it's not like I chatted about it all the time. But it's like, I think and I think people didn't realize at the time, because I was like, I recently lost my mom. And I think it was only like, a bit after that. They were like, oh my god, I thought you'd meant like last year, I didn't realize it was just now. So I kind of like I felt this. Yeah, it was quite a weird sense of like being with everyone and having these amazing people who are lovely, who I became friends with, but no one else was having the same experience. And so it was quite isolating time at the same time, because you're just feeling something so full on I guess it might be, I guess, if you're feeling like, postpartum depression or something where you're like having something where you're like, you know, you're having such a kind of different experience of things. And I guess all like, you know, people were, your worries are very different to other people's you. I mean, if someone's talking about like, the color of the nursery, and you're just like, oh my god, like, what is my life good, like, you know, and then yes, invalidate those concerns, but like, you're just in a different place. But yeah, I did. And I really worked to, you know, build those relationships and carried on nonetheless, I'm not someone that would just sit in my house like and not do, like, I'll like, go out and meet people and keep trying and go into groups, you know, and, like, I'm very much a kind of was, I don't know, like what the word is. But, uh, I'm high functioning. I am high functioning. Grievers. You know, I mean, it's not like I didn't, I could have definitely not out there. But I didn't that was that was also the thing. It's probably the way I'd love to ignore get outta bed. But I needed to because my child was like, you know? Yeah, so, but now I've got a really nice network of friends. And then even here, you know, we've met some other really nice people even moving here. And Akira is still friends with like, you know, the people that we were with in London, and I had a great that, that, that first period of time where it was like, you know, like, yeah, like doing lunch, just being on a totally different time schedule with, you know, just sort of just getting into living in the moment and stuff with with other parents and stuff, you know. But yeah, it's very mixed time looking back on that, I guess, for me. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that's right. Like you say, like, you're experiencing something at the same time as everyone else, you're but you're experiencing something so much more. Greater. Yeah, the emotional pull on you is just incredible. And yeah, yeah. Then, like you said, you're talking about all the, you know, the superficial things and you're like, yeah, no, there's actually yeah, you know, this is and it's and it's not fair, because you also know that like, and that is important to those people, like, you know, like that, that is totally valid, like what they're going through is totally valid. It's just that you're going through something very and that's sometimes their experience. It makes it you know, and, and it's hard like, it's so when you lose your thing for me, that was really difficult. It's like seeing people with their moms and stuff like that was so painful, you know, there's a constant reminder so that like, you go to the playground and someone's there with their mom and dad, and you're just like, oh, like Yeah, yeah, it's all around you. Definitely. Yeah. Listening to the art of being my mom I listened wanted to ask about Akira festival. That is an awesome name we have. Yeah, it's so random. I think that we like, I remember that it was kind of random that my sister sent me. I was texting my sister on I suppose pregnant about like names. And then I think there was some like spell misspelling. And it came up with some really sort of random name that sort of sounded slightly Japanese that was like, I can't remember it was but it was really cool. And I was like, What are you suggesting this like Japanese name and then we, and we thought it was brilliant. But then it was like, Okay, well, maybe not that well. But then we were just like, okay, it was really cool. And there was a there's a director called Akira Kurosawa who my mom really liked. And like Taz, who's really interested in MMA, like loves and like so it wasn't, it wasn't in any way because we were like, We love the director, we have to honor him. It was just that we were just like, that's kind of a cool name. And there's an I think it's a my mum was was Scottish. And I think it can apparently it is, has like Scottish like, yeah, roots, and it's sort of Scottish for Yeah, maybe for girl I can't remember. But I feel like it is in Scotland, apparently. And also, apparently it's in India and has his family has his dad's Indian. So we're like, Well, clearly there's like some connection and yeah, it's bold. It's a bold choice. But honestly, I think the energy leads to Brits I've seen on videos. Yeah. Satine. Perfect. Yeah, no, it's good. He's Yeah, we haven't met another. Okay, we're actually we did meet we met one girl that was called Akira. So I think it is a unisex name. Right? Like, yeah, but apart from that, and I yeah, I haven't met another girl. And I think she was Japanese. But I think parents in Japan, it's very much like a it's quite common, like, so I think it's in Japan. It's just like, Dave or something. You know, it's not like it's not unusual. So whereas here, it's like, just great. Yeah, it's I work in childcare. So I see a lot of different dates. Yeah. When I when I eat when that I like that. Oh, well. Oh, thank, you know, what I was gonna ask you about, about him? Did you find your songwriting has has changed, or, or sort of been influenced by becoming a mother? Yeah, I yeah, I think so I don't, I feel like, it certainly has, to an extent of like, I used to spend a really long time writing lyrics. And that's like what I like doing. I mean, I feel like the process is, like, laborious, and I don't necessarily enjoy it when it's happening. But I kind of like the results. So it's like, obviously, you know, I can rise, it's really easy to write some, like kind of throwaway lyrics I can, that's something you can do like quite quickly, but then to like, really create depth and like imagery and kind of take it, I would normally spend a really long time going through it. And I found that quite challenging in a way because I'm like, Oh, that's not really the way like you don't when you're a parent, you don't really have the privilege of being like, I'm just gonna spend a few days just really delving into this time. And suddenly you're like, right, there's a window, I just really need to be creative in this small time I've got so yeah, I think that's a that's quite interesting. And then it's funny how I'm like, also on the other side of that is like, at work, I'll often, you know, we'll be writing songs really, really quickly with people like that's what you do, like, you can facilitate other people to write really quickly. Or I'm running these like, Yeah, different sort of somewhere in sessions for different organizations. And yeah, it's so I think it's, um, I feel like in terms of content, I haven't I have kind of written some stuff around it, but I haven't I don't know how the contents like changed in a way because I feel like interestingly, for me, there was so much like, wrapped up around Yeah, parenthood and loss. And it was it was so like, sort of wound up like it was so I've kind of you know, I did like lots of different like grief counseling stuff to kind of try and unwind stuff. And I feel like at the beginning when I first had a carer, I just couldn't like I really want to point out like, I feel like it sounds like a really negative one. No, because I looked like it was really nice, obviously, you know, yeah, there's all these amazing positives. But equally, there was so much there was so much wound up in it that for a while, I found it really hard to like, write anything because it just felt like, you know, it was just like, well, this is just opening. Like, there's just, I can't really express this. There's too much in here. And I think now only in the last kind of couple of years, or actually, to be honest, only really, I started writing bits and bobs in lockdown, but not really having that much space. But only recently have I started to like really have a bit more sort of headspace and like time. And yeah, I guess it has changed because I guess I have changed, in a way is what I'd say. But I don't. But I haven't written like anything up for like specifically for him. Sometimes he's like, can you write a song for me, please? He's like, one day can I write? Can I be in it? Okay, cool. So yeah, that will come but it's so hard isn't it sometimes, like expressing all of this? I think I used to like when he was a little baby. I used to just like make up little songs and sing them to him when he was a child. Like make little all these little voice notes. But yeah, it's an evolving process, I guess is what I'd say around like Yeah. Yeah, when you mentioned their hair, he's, he's saying write songs for me whenever he's obviously quite aware that what you do and what dad does? Oh my god, like, yeah, he literally, like analyzes my lyrics more than anyone, like, in a way that like, no one pays any attention. So I'll go in and he's like listening to one of my songs at night. And he'll be like, so when you say this, what do you mean? He's like, learn the lyrics. And like, yeah, he wants he picked up I have this on on one of my lyrics. It's like, the oceans part. We meet and falling through Blue scenes. Night unveils the see unraveled, you find me. And he was like, Oh, I like the way you say unraveled there. It's kind of similar to be Oxon unraveled, isn't it? And I was like, no one has ever noticed. Like, and I'm always like, inspired by BJOG, like, unraveled, that's a great word. The only person who was three at the time, I feel anyway, but yeah, sorry for interrupting. Oh, no, no, no, that literally is about Yeah, it was heading down that path about he's, do you think, is it important to you? For your identity? I suppose that he's aware of what you do. Yeah, definitely. I think it is. Because I think, yeah, it's really nice for him to kind of know us. And, yeah, and it is, and it's nice for him. And because there's a part of him as well, in a way, you know, it's like such a Yeah, so I think it is, and it's important for him also, to kind of understand us as human beings as well, like, not just as parents, which is, you know, really not I think that's that's great, isn't it? When they're like, Oh, you, you exist, and you do all this stuff. And it's funny, because he always wanted me to go to his nursery, I think, yeah, like last it was about a year ago, we were singing a song together and he said, Oh, can you sing it at nursery so I had to go and like he got got me he was really sort of nervous. But he asked me to like, sing the song together. And it was teacher so we did. And he was like saying we need like we need to do it was really cute. But then like at Christmas I when he I went and I thought okay, I'm gonna go and just offer like, you need to go and do some Christmas singing in his nursery because it's like a really as a little Christmas present to them as that I'll go and sing with them. And so he was really excited about it. And then when I got there, he was literally just so like, it was really interesting, because he obviously all the kids are there. And like you said, you work with the MPC. Like, you know, you start seeing them. Oh, yeah, they're all really you know, and they're always wanting to cut like, yeah, they're already close. And they're all right, right there. And he was a bit like, about really kind of possessive like hugging me. He was also going after I started sang a couple of songs. He was like, Yeah, can I go play now? And I was like, oh, like singer, your master, but it's like his way of processing it. So yeah, he was really really proud as well. Yeah. I feel like it's a nice thing seeing you know, he, he's frequently kind of saying like, Oh, can I make up a song? And I'm like, Yeah, sure. And then we'll, like make little voice clips of him singing and, but the hilarious thing is because he loves Bjork. He was like he thinks in a really big walk away like a really like, Yeah, he'll be like, all this other ground like, expressive way. But yeah, I think it's like, you know I love that that's his he's very much music is a natural thing for him and I love that he knows that about us and also isn't just kind of like oh yeah mom and dad now I love that he wants to listen to us like he'll let literally I'll go in and he's listening to my music on repeat but he also does it with my mom, my mom's got an album and he will also listen to Yeah, so he'll might listen to one of her songs on repeat like in the night as well sometimes. So that's really lovely as well just like having that connection with people through music. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's so yeah, hopefully. Yeah. What was What's your mom's name? She was called net net McClelland the guy Oh, that's just lovely. Yeah, yeah this thing should be done yet. Though you try so hard. Those things you won't want to? Be. Know, we've sort of touched on identity a little bit, and talked about like the pool between the two and separating and stuff. One thing that I really liked to talk to moms about so bad for us, I really like to talk to you about your mum guilt. You know, like, it sounds really bad that I'm excited about it. But yeah, what are your thoughts about it? How do you feel about it? All that kind of stuff? No, I didn't know I was thinking about this. Before the interview. I was like, how, what is what do I think about mum? Gill? Yeah, I think I don't know how I know some people suffer from it really badly. And I was trying to be like, do I like how do I feel? And I guess it's when you? Yeah, when you're trying to do staff or like, if you're like, leaving, and he, like, going to do something, and then he's really upset or something like that. Like, that's when you could start feeling it. I think when I go, like, I think, you know, I've done some kind of like residentials have gone away and done some stuff. And it's like, when I do it when I'm there. I I'm okay, like I think I'm I'm quite good at sort of existing, like we have a really strong connection, but I'm quite good at like doing stuff being present in a different thing. And actually with Akira he's really good because because we've always, like worked and stuff. He from a really young age has gone and been the tases parents or the TAs or you know, he's actually very adaptable. Like he's not, I don't think he's a massively clingy child. Because, yeah, not that there's anything wrong with that. But like, it's like, that's just always been a lifetime. I mean, like, I went back to work really early and I. But then I'll also have like, really intense time with him. So it's not Yeah, I wouldn't go back to work full time. But I think so I think he is really happy. Like when he's with tases parents. He'll be like, I didn't miss you at all, sometimes. But at the moment, he's really like, never leave me. So we kind of go between these but anyway. But he's like, Yeah, I think we're quite good at like, being he's very confident and settled in a way. So we're quite good at like, sort of it not existing separately. But you know, like doing, like if I do things, having a great time with his grandparents, and I'm like, a way and I'm doing something creative. Like what I'm doing. I'm working on doing something like I don't I don't know, I'd not I? Yeah, I don't know if I feel guilty. But I Yeah, but I definitely can feel that pool when you're like, if they're really upset or they need you or like obviously, when you're kind of going I basically one of the things I do is I work for this amazing organization called Ultra young musicians. And I go and every month I go to Suffolk and work with really great artists and I'm like the songwriting specialist there. So every month I'll go away for a couple of days. So it's like and typically when you're about to get on the train to leave, they're like nursery phones and they're like, yeah, he's just been sick. You know, it's always like that, isn't it when you go away that that's when they're just kind of like randomly they'd get sick and stuff. So there's that wasn't that but yeah, and that's when you're a bit like, Oh God, my child and they're gonna be okay and leaving I'm like really far away and then without me and yeah, so I don't know the answer to mom guilt to be honest, that's really good now how do I feel about it? That's good we go you mentioned that you do your residency at the hospital. Can you share more about what, what's involved? About the other artists? And yeah, yeah, so basically, I started working there in 2015, and it was like this project that so it's on pediatric wards on the children's ward. And they weren't, they already had like music stuff. So it's a heart and lung hospital, I started working and they already had this whole singing for breathing program there for our adults. And then they wanted to look at like bringing music for children and young people. So I went and I was like, the first person that to do it, it was like just little old me like sort of trying to bring music to this ward. And then as it started, it was and it was great. So you're doing Yeah, a real mix that went through different ages. So that can be anywhere between like, like leading mums, you know, creating a kind of music group that people like that they would normally be going to these like groups of babies, for example, it says, so you're kind of doing like that with songs or doing kind of performance, the staff more like you're going to sing soothing lullabies, or you're like doing a singing for breathing session with young people, or Yes, it's very much like led by the young people that you work with, it's sort of guided by what's needed in the situation. And then after I'd been working there for about a year, we, we were like, Oh, this is great. And people are really engaging. But there's a whole like group, so maybe sort of teenage boys, for example, as a total generalization, but it was gonna probably be more difficult to be like, you want to do a singing breathing session, you know, like that. Yeah, some, some say yes. But so then we decided, like, then I had some really good friends who have beat boxes. So then we're like, oh, let's maybe bring beat boxing. And so then it developed into this whole big project now, which is basically singing and beat boxing. And yeah, and I play ukulele there as well. And just kind of, and so we just do a whole range of things. And it's amazing, like, I get to collaborate with lots of different artists, and we go in onto the water, they kind of, you know, you'll go there. And it's like, everyone knows, okay, you come in on this day, and there'll be like, a waiting for you. And then you seal that because it's a heart as a specialist hospital. So you'll frequently have people that will come like a couple every couple of months, or maybe it's that maybe some people will say, really long term, or some people will, like keep returning because they have cystic fibrosis, or they'll come back for different treatments. So it's like, you build a whole relationship with them. It's been really intense through COVID. Because obviously, we couldn't go on to the ward for like, yeah, yeah, over a year. And, and now even now, I'm there by myself at the moment, but like, we still I still can't sing. So it's been really full on. So I've had to do a heartlight develop a whole new practice. But hopefully soon, we'll be able to, but Yeah, cuz it's like, the more that restrictions open up here, almost the more intense it needs to become on the ward because obviously COVID is still happening, especially for vulnerable people, you know, there's clinically vulnerable people that like, you know, are very affected. So, yeah, so it's been it's been a really interesting journey for me like doing that without singing, which is like exactly what I love doing. And yeah, and I do and I also work at Great Ormond Street Hospital, which is another like, that's a really big Yeah, Children's Hospital where there's like all that's has all different specialisms. And then there's another one that I do some work out to which is which we which the vocal beat that's called vocal beats the project that we do at Royal Brompton Hospital with beatboxing and, and singing and like we've got there's lots of stuff like, online there's a whole there's like a nursery rhyme album on YouTube, but it's kind of like nursery rhymes that I could deal with listen to because as a parent and as a musician, a lot of them are just like, you know, you know, I'm saying Okay, so these are like, you know, nice nursery rhymes with harmonies and things that we, you know, that I would be happy to listen to. And then we've also got like a YouTube channel that we that because we started on the project, where at first it was just from nought to 16 year olds, but then it was like, Okay, actually, there's this whole group of young people from 16 to 25, that when you leave the children's ward, you're suddenly like an adult, but you don't really feel like an adult. So we then started, like, developed a whole program to support young adults in their transition. And then part of it we like CO design the YouTube channel with them. So there's a whole YouTube channel where I've done all these like, singing tutorials and beatboxing tutorials. It's called vocal beats, and it's gone. And I wrote, I wrote a ukulele book recently. There's always like, ukulele videos and like, so yeah, there's a lot of people like hospitalized or not like for any young people that just want to engage. Yeah, so yeah. Yeah. So it's something I mean, I'm really lucky to have done it. Like, it's great to do that as well. It's like, that must be just so rewarding to like, feel like you really feel real. I hate to using the word privilege now, because it's got a new home. Yeah. So yeah, show you that, you know, yeah, definitely. And it gives you like, it's really good. I think it's a really good. I mean, it's, it helped me a lot as an artist, because I think, you know, when you're working on a ward, it's as much as it's about obviously, it's like being talented, or, you know, so it's like, you want to have a really high caliber of musicians. And that's great. And we, you know, the program is like, really specialist and really amazing musicians. So you want to have that, but actually, an equal part, it's not like you could have the best musician in the world. And they it's not, it's almost more about the personality, like they need to be good musicians, but it's about being able to kind of relate, communicate, connect with people, because like, you are essentially walking into their bedroom in a really vulnerable situate, like, you know, you're going in to that someone's like, room when they're like child might just be about to have surgery, or like you're dealing in an intimate space. So actually, it's a real human to human connection. So you need to, like, have these like, yeah, like this kind of, you need to be able to connect and be really empathetic, but like, yeah, it's just, it's really interesting. And I think that as definitely, as an artist, there's kind of, it's really helped me actually on stage. Because it's like, when you go and sing an award, you can't like just like, say, for example, you were like someone that always only ever had your eyes closed. Like if you went in there and started seeing with your eyes first. That would never work because it's like, you have to be like I'm here. I'm another human. And we're like, connecting, and I'm making you feel really comfortable. And it's 100% not about me, it's about you. And I'm not gonna sing song. Like, there's not really any ego in this. It's about me providing something that's like, great for you. You know, like, yeah, yeah, when you're on stage, it's like, actually, it's really helpful with like, how to kind of be intimate and talk to the audience and stuff. Even if you've got like hundreds of people. It's like, you can create intimacy. Yeah, yeah. It's so yeah, I remember, as a kid singing, our teacher taught us to look over the top of people's heads. He used to teach us not to eyeball people, because I think he thought it would put us off, or, you know, we'd start laughing or whatever. Then I came to this point in my singing that I thought, Oh, my God, I'm connecting to people. I'm just looking at. Similar thing. Like, you have to, you have to look at these people. Because they're in your you're in their space. Yeah, yes. No ego. It's about what you're giving to them. So like, it breaks down that barrier. Yeah, your audience almost becomes a part of your performance. Like, it's not like you're exactly. And then, like, you're all together. Yeah, yeah, I can do that. Yeah. And there are people out there who are like, you know, the greatest. They're certain artists who are so amazing. Like, they can sit on stage with, like, 1000s of people. And it's as though they're like, having a really intimate chat is that you know, yeah, absolutely. That like that relationship with them. Yeah. Yeah. So it's been a really interesting and yeah, you do feel really privileged. It's also you know, it's, it can also be really emotionally challenging as well. I do a lot of, you know, also working with, you know, yeah, kids with cancer are working with, oh, you know, that dealing with loss, which you do, like, or, you know, that is some of the patients we work with are really, really sick. So, that can be really challenging, but also it's like you do equally. The same reason it's really challenging. You get to like, it's also really rewarding, because you're like, Oh, my God, like this person had a really short life. And I made a really big impact. Like the other day, I was just working and I went and like, there was some parents and they were sitting in the room and their child had gone down for theater. So they're obviously like, anxious as you would be if your child is going off to theater. And I went to do music with another little kid in the bay that we're in and the mom before I started, oh my god, like I just need to show you this before she had these really beautiful photos on her phone or when her child that was like about four I think now had been a little Baby to take most photos of me singing to her child. And she was like, Oh, we've had these all printed out. Like they're in this book. You're such a big part of his journey, you know? So like, it's really nice when you're like, yeah, yes, this makes feel emotional. I know. Oh, my God, I could go on. That's a really like, light story. But yeah. I know. I know. Yeah, it's very. So it's it was interesting. Like, I would also say that as the headspace, like, sometimes I feel very pulled in different directions, because it's such, it's like, you need so much headspace that that work is amazing. But it's like you are processing so much, you know, because it's like you're taking in, you're going into like, really emotionally charged atmospheres. And you're trying to like, and you can't go, like you're trying to process something, you know, which can just be that you're, you're there and you're seeing someone dealing with a really complex situation. Or sometimes you see someone that's the same age as your own child, and you're like, Oh, my God, you know what I kind of really resonate with you. Or there's sometimes obviously you do deal with loss. And so it's like, you kind of and it's again, it's very hard to explain that, like you're in this world, and then you come home and then you're trying to like, process that as it takes quite a lot of headspace. And then obviously, then you've got like the headspace then obviously, that that headspace doesn't exist in parenting, you know, like, then you come home, and it's like, you're just there for your family and stuff. And then you're dealing with like, headspace of like, being your own artist. And so it's like, and then you're just doing the headspace of like, I really need to just sort my house out because I just need to decorate or needs to be tidied or whatever, you know. So there's so many parts of you that you're always like, Wow, it really, there's so many different directions isn't there that you feel like you're kind of being pulled in. And, and I really, I, you know, so grateful to have created a life where I am able to do music, you know, like, I'm still into, like, I'm still doing singing and performing. And then with the staff, the hospital work that I'm still doing some, like, I'm still using my musicality to do the work that I do. And that's like, you know, it's really like lovely, and you really get to see the impact of music in a way that you don't see in like many other places, I would say like it just it like, it just lands in that space. Because it's such an emotionally charged space. It's just like, you really see this kind of very immediate impact. If you're not like yeah, it's Oh, yeah, yeah, it's amazing. Actually, I'm getting goosebumps when you say that. It's just like, it's so music is just incredible, like the connections and yeah, out to can transform you from one time to another and totally amazing. Yeah. 100% Yeah. And I think people are starting to see it, like a bit more in a way. You know, I guess that the way that they're seeing that, like, the impact that music can have on dementia patients or like people, you know, that it's like, how like, just stuff that is like, wow, this is kind of magic. Stuff that you see that music does, and it happens literally all constantly with the work we do. There'll be these things that have happened that you're like, Whoa, you know, like this the first time that someone has come out of surgery, like they haven't stood up for days and suddenly the music makes the baby stand out. Well, you know, this is a little you're just seeing like this amazing impact. Yeah, I mean, music is and music is the best thing ever. Think singing is like the best thing and then harmonies best really love. Honestly, when I read like Instagram bio and have kids like I'm like probably 2020 years formally in a in a vocal group. Like because. So harmonies but right right from the beginning of my life. Sorry, I'm gonna I'm gonna talk that was selfish. To talk to a fellow musician. Yeah. My sister and I were there's two and a half years between us and we're both got very similar voices, except she can go lower, and I can go higher, but we're still got the same. Like when we're both singing It's really hard to tell us apart. So we Oh, that's so nice. Yeah, something about blood singing Isn't that likes people when you're related? It's awesome. And yeah, so we've always sang together. We used to mess around and do concerts on the on the Sunday afternoon like push the the coffee table. Table do concerts for mom and dad. And my parents weren't like not they weren't like musical at all. They loved music, but neither of have them actually played or sang but their siblings or mums. Dad was very, very good singer and his mom. So my great grandmother was an opera singer. Not I don't think she was a formal but she had an amazing, amazing. Wow, I never heard it in real life, but I've heard lots of stories. And then my dad's side, his sister and his brother by sing, and his mum was really good thing. And his dad was a good thing I found out later in life. So it was, but it wasn't right there for my sister we just had they just had it in your blood. Yeah. And I first discovered harmonies because dad used to play a lot of American country music like Johnny Cash and Don Williams, and don't John Denver, and they're all obviously male singers. And I wanted to sing along, but I couldn't sing low enough in their register. And because I'm an outer, I couldn't sing an octave up. I mean, I probably could now but at that point, as a kid, I couldn't. So I had to learn a way to sing along. So I just started singing in harmonies, and wow, it was just this innate thing. I don't read like I couldn't read music to get by. But I'm not like a theory person by any means. So things by Yeah. Yeah. And that used to really annoy my, my, or like my organ teacher and my chill. I could read bass clef though. I can read bass clef. Not anymore, but it was really odd how your brain works. Yeah, so yeah, my sister and I've always saying she's always saying that she and I've always seen the harmonies, and it's just we've been like that our whole life. And it's so much more interesting as well, isn't it? Sometimes it's not like, you're like, hey, I want to do the harmony. Today, we'll be talking about how your husband you and your husband get on musically when my husband is musical. And not he doesn't do much these days. But he used to play in a in like a covers band in a country pub sort of environment. And when we first got together, I realized very quickly that he actually sang the harmonies. And I was like, oh, yeah, this is gonna work. That seems like a split second. And Alison, it's okay. And I grew up listening to like, my mom listens to like Crosby, Stills and Nash and I don't like like very much like, I grew up listening a lot to Harmony stuff. And that's kind of how I learned to sing harmonies was like, you know, singing in the car with my mum, and I'd be like, I'll try and do this one. And you do that one, and then she gave to my one. I'm gonna stick to your one. Anyway, yeah, but the staves are kind of like a modern day. I mean, they're gorgeous. You're like, if you're a harmony enthusiasts, they they are incomparable. I would say, you know, I've seen this live a few times and they've got the big sisters have which is like, there's something about blood people like related to each other Singing isn't there but you have sometimes like, is that a magic that you just have? It's like you have like an you have a what's the word? Not a telepathic connection? Is that what it is? Yeah, you can actually read each other and you know what someone's about to do and you can Yeah, like you change at the exact same time it's just yeah, it's always pretty special. Yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah, I've been doing stuff with Yeah, with some new singers recently, some really great singers are doing backing vocals to me and, and they sound lovely, but I was thinking, I wonder if I would do like because I've always done my own harmonies and it is like in tears was saying, oh, you know, actually in a way it's always the best he was like No, I think the best is always having people that blend really well. It was like you know I think the Beach Boys like they've all got so yeah, also you have got away like when you write yourself like in your mind it sounds like Yeah, it's interesting was recorded that you're like, yeah, how so? I've always ended up my own harmonies but yeah, maybe maybe I'll graduate to but it has to be so freakin tight doesn't have someone else's harmonies on your track but they are excellent at blending. And you're so critical of it because you know how you want it done. And you know how you could do it. So you're like yeah, every little bit you like yeah, Yeah, I guess I'm just kind of in terms of stuff that's coming up is like, yeah, it's just I think I'm getting gradually, like a little bit more space and time, you know, as Akira is getting a bit older, and we're sort of settling in here. And things are shifting a bit with COVID. And, you know, you can see sort of a bit of light at the end of that tunnel that, you know, starting to find because when I first moved here again, it was like, it was again, like, how do I you know, bring my identity, this singing identity here, because I kind of, I was in London, and then I came here on a lockdown. And then I really wasn't music. And then it's like, you meet all these really lovely people. But then you kind of also want to share like the other aspect. You know, it's like, yeah, of yourself. And actually, one thing that's been really nice is when I did a gig recently, and it's a fast game I did in Brighton, which is near to where we live, which is the biggest city where the city near where we live. And you know, it's fairly close. But it was really nice to see. All of like, my new neighbors, and we've met some really great people. Yeah, all of our new neighbors, just being so like, supportive and like really, yeah, just really excited and like coming to the gig. And you know, and it's really nice, because I guess that felt kind of, I don't know why it felt so important. But I just really, you want, you know, yeah, you kind of want to feel because I guess music is like, it's such a part of like who I am. It's not this kind of thing that I'm just like, oh, yeah, I just like do this thing. It's like, it feels like this. Yeah, this big part of who you are. So it's like, you kind of want to be able to bring that aspect of yourself. And I guess it's been a real the last couple of years. For me personally, I have found it a real challenge in terms of music, because it's like, you know, all the live, like the whole live industry is pretty much sort of, you know, shut down. And then also like, not even being able to sing on the wards. So it's like, I just had this thing where I've just been, like, you know, for the first time in my life is just like, oh my god, like, I'm sort of desperately trying to do this thing. But then you're like, why this is so feels like such a kind of uphill struggle. But then at the same time, you're like, oh, but who am I if I don't do that, because that is kind of who I am. Yeah, so it's just, it's been really nice to have a bit of time to yet I kind of am starting to feel again, like, Okay, I'm reconnecting with that, you know, like that side of myself doing music rehearsing people performing in like, the last gig that I did, I really tried to enjoy the process as well, rather than just, you know, like all the because it is a bloody lot of work, isn't it when you're doing stuff, but try to enjoy, like, every rehearsals when you're like getting to hear your songs being played and singing harmonies with all these really amazing singers I was working with and like, yeah, so it's like, trying to bring that in, rather than just Yeah. Because if you don't enjoy the process, then it can just feel like a hell of a lot of work, you know? Yeah. Do you think that that's also because? Because you are now a mom. It's like, every little that you do, you're holding on to that, and you see the importance in it. Whereas before it was, yeah, I've got to get this done. And then the gigs the big thing? Oh, yeah, definitely. And I also feel like as a mom, I mean, you get really good at just like, using your time well, don't you because you have so little time, so you get really good. And you know how you asked about? I guess like creatively, a really positive thing about being a mom, is that you don't that you don't wait for inspiration. Do you? If you're like, I need to do something creative. I've got like these hours on a Friday. Yeah, that's my creative time. You know, like, it's not like, I feel like it's just like, No, that is my creative time. Yeah. And like, and also I don't feel like you know, in the evening and stuff, like sometimes in the evening, you feel like doing stuff but equally in the evening. If you're just you know, you're pretty knackered against our writing songs. I mean, it's much more of a like, I'd way prefer to, like get up really early and do stuff like that'd be my my thing. Yeah, so I guess like, because I feel it's funny thinking about all the the way we've discussed stuff because I don't, I don't want to feel it sound like a really negative parent, because I feel like I'm really not. You don't sound like that. Because, like, I feel like but it is, you know, but the reality but I think I'm also very honest, because the reality of parenting is that, you know, it is like in terms of a whole identity of being an artist being a mom. Yeah, like it really is a big shift, isn't it? You're learning it takes time to kind of come to terms and all that to kind of find who you are. And I guess for me, because I have had such an intense like You know, journey of parenthood, like loss of a mother, then the pandemic, there's two, like quite intense things have happened at the same time. So you're like processing so much stuff. And then just finding. Yeah, and then the other side of being a parent is I think it gives you like, freedom with Akira, I think it's also sometimes I'm very much someone that like, feels I'm very much someone that likes to be doing stuff, you know, quite, there's quite a lot of pressure of like, oh, I need to be, you know, I like to achieve things I like to do. So it's like quite a river. And then like, always, like, oh, I should be trying to do this and do that. And I want to write this and I want it you know, there's always a sort of drive. And I think with a, when you have a child, it's been quite good for me to learn to like, just be in the moment as well German and not feel guilty that like, I haven't been creative, like, on that day is like, oh, yeah, you can, like, get some foam out and play on the tray or whatever. You know, it's like, you're just like, in the moment doing stuff with him and kind of discovering things and having like, these days, so yeah, you know, and he's gonna go to school in September. So it's gonna be like, this whole new chapter of like, getting sort of, you know, different time back and stuff. A new chapter. Yeah, it's exciting to look forward to that too, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. next five days. Now, good on. Yeah. And look, honestly, you you have not come across as negative at all. Please don't like that. Because everything you've said, People mums have said it before. It's like, yeah, it feels the same way. It's like, yeah, it's just what it is. Yeah, and it's really hard. I think the difficulty is with parenting, is if you said to something like if someone who hasn't got a child hears this, they'd be like, Oh, that sounds awful. You know, I mean, because but what you don't always like what you can't really express is that sort of sense of love, isn't it? So you don't go around being like, Oh, my God, I love my child so much. It's amazing. He's given me purpose. It's just so brilliant. You kind of like the part that you will be like, yeah, because obviously, that's just like a given, isn't it? So it's like, another parent, you just know, like, yeah, obviously, like, you think your child is incredible. And it's the best thing you've ever done. And it's amazing. Like, that's a given. And it's really hard, because it's this, this, this, this and that, but that's the stuff you're talking about. But like, yeah, so that's the difficulty is I think people would just be like, Wow, that really doesn't like sound. Like, like the benefits outweigh the costs. Somehow, if you and I remember hearing someone say, it's like, if you tally everything up, actually, definitely the costs do not outweigh the benefit. Like there are a lot of costs, but then the benefits are so incredible in that small like that, that it makes it all worth it. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. My I've got a 40 CD and 14 He's turned 14 over a six year old and a 14 year old and my 14 year old the other day. I like not the other day all the time. If we're having trouble with the little one. Alex will go this is why I'm not having kids. I'm not having children and like if he just keeps coming up with this stuff. I'm not doing that. I see how to use b I'm not doing that. Like mate but it is so good. Like you just say yeah, the hard stuff that's the stuff that's loud and gets noticed you know the the activity whatever exactly the challenges, the challenges, but it's all the other lovely things that you're not notice the Commodores isn't it? It's like the cuddles or getting woken up with a little kiss or whatever. Like stuff that you can't really explain that could happen when you have those like hugs and stuff. Yeah, and she's just hanging out and chatting or like we do some painting together and he plays on the keyboard and like just all the other stuff because it's not loud and noticeable. Yeah, he just can't say that stuff. And I said you'll change your mind one time. No, I'm not I'm not either. I think I have so many younger brothers and sisters and I was very much exactly like similar like 14 When I had when my mom had my little sister and I think for that reason. All of my family like my siblings all had kids like what it was anyway yeah, we've all had kids quite late because I think we would just sort of watch the galaxy like wow that is very intense. Yeah, like never have like loads of kids because we're like no, no, no. Yeah. Follows With us get lost. And I feel like I've got quite a unique voice as in like, I think I've got quite a unique experience of parenthood were actually like a lot when when I was going through my own journey of loss and motherhood, like I found it really, I desperately wanted to find people that had that direct because you know, when you're kind of experiencing it, you're so desperate to find connection, because I desperately wanted to find other people that had that specific experience, like, loss, but yet actually losing your mom when you're pregnant. Because that even before after feels so different, like for me, it was so specific. Yeah. And I couldn't find any, I find it really hard to find that. So I feel that I have quite a sort of unique point of view. And there's quite a big sort of gap. Like, there's definitely a space there. And I feel like when I'm in the right space, and as times moving on, I feel like I've got a lot of stuff to write or join me or some way that I can use that experience creatively. Like as an artist bringing that together, like that experience, and whether that comes through in songs or speaking like, I don't know what that's gonna look like, but I feel like there was there's this there's a story to be told in some way. You know, like, that's how I feel about it. Yeah, yeah. Good on you. Yeah. What's the space? And that's the thing. You could be helping by sharing that in your future, the amount of people that you can be helping through that, because, you know, like you said, it's hard to find people have that, that specific experience, you know, totally. And yeah, and there could be loads, but it's just like, I couldn't find like I was there, like, looking on all these platforms, like asking, you know, grief support group like stuff, you know, and it was, yeah. And there were people that had lost their mom, there were like, groups with that, but there weren't specifically in pregnancy. And I was just like, I just, yeah, it'd be really good to like, hear. And I remember listening to one podcast where there was another singer, actually, who had had that same experience. And it was very intense. And like, yeah, listening to that, but it was it was also really helpful being like, Oh, yes, someone? Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, yeah. It's important, isn't it to be to be able to express yourself and, and make those connections? Like, yeah, yeah. And it's so good, what you're doing, like, it's really great, like, made the time and space and like building this thing, because I'm sure it is making a difference to like lots of people. And I think you can leave like, it's so important, isn't it? I guess we're creatives that, you know, yeah. I imagine that for most people. That feeling of your own identity and creativity, and like, you know, grappling with how that exists, and how that CO exists? As a parent, like, yes, it's quite a big thing, isn't it? How that. Yeah. And coexist as well. Yeah, the way you described about that fear of whether you'd get back to the point you were or, you know, remaining in that space, that is a really common thing, like, especially like performers. Yeah, I've really expressed that like, because, you know, when you're, you know, you're building you build relationships with venues or, you know, other bands or whatever, and then you step away from it for for a period of time. And then it's like, you've got to start again, like, maybe someone else is running that venue, and you have the like, or who, who are you and you know, you've got to try and sell yourself again, and just remain relevant. Yeah, there's a lady Georgia fields who I interviewed last year, and she actually runs platform like her Instagram, it's called Finding the mother lode. And her her whole setup is providing resources for moms who are musicians about how to sort of navigate that whole space and how to get back into it all the emotions you're feeling and that sort of stuff. She's really amazing. Yeah, she said the same thing. It's just she thought she had this fear that that part of her life might actually be over. And that was a really horrible thought to have. Yeah, yeah. Because you can't do like, the reality is, life is different. Like you're not the thing is, when you have a kid, like you can't operate at the same, like, life has changed, hasn't it? So it's suddenly you know, you're not going to track up and down the country doing like unpaid gigs, I mean, things are nice. And you're in your 20s, where you're like, building my status as an artist or whatever, like the things that you could do. It's like, you cannot physically do that stuff anymore. Not that I want to do that necessarily. But you know, I'm saying it's like, everything has shifted, so it's like a whole like, how can you still keep building something but then you know, and my husband is like, going on tour in April as well. So then you're always navigating like his staff with my staff and then yeah, it's that's that's the other interesting side of it. dynamics. But yeah, so life has changed. And that's kind of great. And kind of challenging is when it has changed like, yeah, there's nothing you can like. Yeah. Yep. You just got to sort of work through overburdened Yeah. Yeah. And hope that more parents are like speaking about it thank you so much for coming on here though. And it's just been so lovely to chat with you. Oh, no, thank you for having me. It's been really nice to have this chat to it's been really lovely. Yeah, getting to talk about all the stuff that you don't really get to talk about. So it's so nice having someone asking questions about all these things. So thank you. Now it's been a pleasure. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcasts or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom. This thing was done yet though you try so hard those things you won't want to Oh there is inside Combi? Inside distressed distress distressed

Alex Williams South Australian interior designer S1 Ep05 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Alex Williams is an interior stylist, creator, dancer and business owner from Mt Gambier South Australia, and a mum of 2. We chat about why it is so important for her to retain her self identity, how she is going against the mothering modelling that she was shown, and the importance of supporting your husband as much as they are supporting you.... as well as plenty of laughs and light hearted moments too! Alex instagram Check out Alex's infamous Instagram reel here - Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from artists and creative mothers sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mum and continue to make art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Alex Williams has been a creative her whole life from writing songs and poetry as a teenager to dancing fashion, shooting to fame as an Instagram content creator and her current work as an interior designer. This mother of two hails from Matt Gambia, South Australia. Welcome along. Alex, it's wonderful to have you on the podcast today. Hi, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here. What is the best way to describe what you do? What do you like to sort of call yourself? Well I like to call myself an interior decorator interior stylist. Yeah, I love to create I love to style people's homes and create Yeah, interiors that make you very happy to walk into the room pretty much no matter what room that is. I like all kinds of you know, bedrooms and living rooms and office buildings and oh, yeah, at home offices and every all the all the interior kind of things that can be done. I love to do it. So yes, interior stylist. That's my name. Very good. And could I also call you a sort of a Instagram real superstar? I'm not gonna stop you. So funny. I put that reel up. And then my boss. I also worked for Ashley Lauren. And she messaged me and she were both obviously quite, you know, we're well aware of how Instagram works. And we're on it all the time. And she said, Oh my god, can you believe how many views you're getting on that reel? And I was like, No, I could not be more famous. And she was like I don't. And then she had Googled it. And she said apparently 3 million is when it's considered to go viral. And so now I'm up to 2.8 million, so I'm just waiting for it to take over. That is hilarious. Like, who knows how these things work. But I don't like I've done nothing. You know, it took no kind of smarts or skill. It just, you know, it did what it did. It was hilarious. But yeah, it's funny. And it's so funny because I didn't post it for ages because my husband didn't think that's funny. He's like, That's not funny. And I was like, Oh, really then I showed a couple of girlfriends and they're like, that's so funny. And really, because it's taking the piss out of him hit that. So I didn't like Absolutely. I have one single guy has liked it. And but all the women are on board, they're fully on my side. So it's definitely something that women can relate to, that's for sure. Exactly, exactly. I speak to the women, the women have you always been a very creative kind of person, like growing up and I've seen jobs in one way or another and that hasn't always been I mean, you know, growing up I was always the kid in my household that had the clean room and they had the nice things in the room you know that nice bedding and I wanted everything in its right place whereas my siblings were very messy. But that was pretty much it and I always loved I don't do it anymore but I used to love ride writing songs and poetry and then when I moved to mount Gambia I got a job at random country fashion retail store and I even fashion I think is such an creative and expressive you know things so I've always been into fashion and loved you know dressing up and finding you know things with if it's got a bit of leather or not, not real leather fake leather. Got a bit of sequins or fluff or you know anything that's just a little bit textural and catches my eye that I just love all that sort of stuff. So I think yes, on some kind of level I've always been I used to love making jewelry. Yeah, I think I have always been creative in one way or another. Yep. So it's a recurring theme throughout your life. Yeah, absolutely. So you work as as your former work as a an interior stylist. Is that something that you've formally started recently but have been doing for a while as well? Um, I have only been doing it for me before I obviously launched the business. I yeah, I I just pretty much did my own house and you know you have your friends That's a you need to be doing this as a job. It's you're so good at it, and can you come into my house and law, and I couldn't avoid brushed it off because it's just such a career change. And then one day, I just and this is me, I just decided I was going to do it. And that was it. And I. And then that's, that's all I think about now. So I started the business before I studied and I've been studying during, because I just, I'm, I'm Well, two reasons. I'm really impatient. And I love to just do it. I love to get my feet in the water and just start. And also, I believe the best teacher is experience. So I don't think I could have learned anything as valuable as what I have learned working with my clients so far. And then during working with them, I've been doing courses and master classes and things like that, which I have loved as well. So it's been full Bogo, just get into it. It's been awesome. But so that's that's how you tend to sort of do things you just like, right? I want to do it. So I'm doing it. Yeah, exactly. I think if anyone can do it, I can do what anyone else can do. And if I want to do it, I'm gonna do it. Love. So tell us, tell us about your family. Alex, you've got three children. I do a daughter, Savannah. She's five and a little boy named Luca. And he is three. So they're two years apart. And I have a husband, his name is Chris. He is very handy in my business as well. Because he's you know, good at the heavy lifting. He's a painter. So he is great. He you know, he's Williams Way second employee, even though he doesn't know it. The full thing gets worked quite well. So yeah, so yeah, that's my little family, too. And I'm done. I'm all set with them. Because most recently, you were doing doing a photo booth. So yeah. How did that sort of your creativity about fitting in with the kids? I suppose? Like, how, how did you find that the balance? I guess early on when they're little. And then as they've grown up, did you find that was a good kind of working hours that it suited? Yeah, that's pretty much that wasn't obviously that well, not obviously, that wasn't so much of a creative path of something like I have always dreamed of owning owning photos. Yeah. But that was purely, not purely a few different reasons why we open now. You're always in a fun environment you're never at, you know, you're at some of people's happiest days, their birthdays, their weddings. So we love that. And I'm such a people person I love you know, I'm a hot girl. I'm like, Yeah, I'm so excited. You look amazing. Like I'm all about that life. I don't care if I know you or not. So that was right up my alley. When I said before I had children, I worked all day at red gum at the retail store. And then I taught dance at nighttime until, you know, late hours of the night. So I was very busy. I love to be busy. I love to be doing things. So when I was pregnant with my daughter, obviously, both of those jobs stopped. The teaching wasn't something I loved teaching. But it wasn't something I wanted to continue because the hours after school hours into night, which is which in my mind was when I was only going to have time to send my kids because they'd be at school eventually. So that wasn't a career path I wanted to continue on. And I wasn't going back to retail that was just you know, I did like it while I was there. And I met some of my best friends working there. But that was a chapter to close as well. But I said to Chris, there's no way I can not work, like not do anything. So what can we do? And him and I were just brainstorming one night and he said we'd had a photo booth at our wedding. And he said, Why don't we open a photobooth business. There's only one there was only one in town I think at that time, possibly two. And they were blowing up and everyone wanted them and we've got a pretty big town here. So we knew a third could definitely be supported. So that was it. We decided to do that. I wanted something where I could still stay home with the kids during the week were with Savannah during the week. So that was perfect. It was it was nighttime work on a weekend where Chris's parents could watch her. So it just really fit well into our lives. That's what that's how that started. It just was one of those things that was just going to fit perfectly and still where I can earn my own money and you know, contribute to I just like to add I know I noticed one of your questions later is do you need your an identity besides being My mother and I'm like a billion times. Yes. Well, we can talk about that now, if you want. I couldn't just, I know just being mothers. That's that's the sentence that sounds a bit sad. I didn't want to just be a mother. That's not the way I think of a but I know the mother. When I say it, I sort of I like to do air quotes, because you're never just a mom. But yeah, it's, it's I didn't want to be just slave. That's what it's like at the start. Let's be honest. Yeah, you're getting nothing from this newborn. And you're giving every single thing that you've got to, to this little human. So yeah, I definitely needed something else that I could some adult interaction. So yes, that's how that happened. And we've recently just sold that business. Because that's it was weekend work. And now the kids are a bit older. I can work during the week. And we want our weekends free for the kids. So it's first served its purpose. Yeah. And really ideal for everybody at that time to eat satisfied your need for your outlet as well, which like, is just so important, as our Absolutely, yeah. So while we're on the topic, why don't we talk about that now, the concept of identity, it's obviously very important to you. Let me give you a little context of my life. When I was growing up, my mom was a stay at home mom, and my oldest sister. Oh, and you know, any other woman in my life was a stay at home mother. My sister had her firstborn when she was young. She's eight years older than me. But she was young. And so she went straight into motherhood as well. And no, I'd never seen anyone follow a career path. And so when I was young, I, that's all I wanted to do. I want to grow up and I want to be a mom and I want to get married. And Lola. Then when I moved to I moved from I grew up in Queensland, when I moved here, I was 18. I got a job at red gum with Wendy. And I just feel like my eyes were open though. These women, these working women, she got me very involved in the community. And I really, yeah, it's not like I've always felt like that I've always actually been opposite. When growing up, I wanted to be a mum. And now and then as I grew up from 18 onwards, I was the complete opposite. I loved being a part of the community. I loved getting out there. I love socializing. I loved doing my own thing and traveling and things like that. So now yeah, now I'm the complete opposite. Feel like that, then you're sort of role modeling to your own daughter that there are options out there for women now, it's not that 100% That's actually where I was going. Thank you for saying that, though. Was I read? them? Yeah, you really did. Yes, that was my point. So watching my of my people I'd seen that's all I wanted to do. And that's exactly what I don't want to teach my daughter or my son. I want him to see that. You know, maybe when he grows up, he's a stay at home dad and the mom is the one who goes and has the career and Savannah I want her to be the same. I never was taught that I could have a career or, you know, what are you going to do? And you know, nothing like that. And now I am yeah, if I had my time over again, I'd be definitely going straight into career first and and going all in. So I want to I want her to definitely learn and watch me take over the world find it very important that that your children see that you are argues that again? More than just the mother that you actually know Alex that has an existence that is outside of of that mothering role. That's important. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I feel like when well from my personal experience when you think of like my mom, well she left when we were 12 so I didn't have her for very long but thinking of her from when I was younger. I always was very much like that. I was like mom's mom she's there to make me a sandwich and she's there to put me to bed and she's that's that I remember that being my thought process I never saw her do as she never socialized with any of her friends. I never saw her do anything. Obviously it was different back then as well that was definitely the culture you know the stay at home mom and that sort of thing. But yeah, I think that's a little indulgent for children to be able to think that way and and a little not selfish but yeah, I think it's important for them to know that they're not the be all and end all of the entire world. They're not the center of the universe. New love like obviously I love them more than life at Self no do anything for them. But I don't want them to think that my life revolves around them. You still think that there? Yeah, it's not going to set them up for real world? Yeah, no. That's it. You just it's it's unrealistic. It's unrealistic. It's like what your mum modeled to you. And then when you got out there you went, Oh, actually, there is something different. It's like you don't want your children to have that terrible realization all of a sudden that life could have been different for them. Right and some way Exactly. That's right. Yeah. Oh, now I want to touch on you mentioned that you're a dancer. Did you keep dancing through your pregnancies? i Yes. Yep. So I taught. I was still teaching with Savannah. So I taught up until I was I can't remember seven or eight months pregnant, I think, pretty pregnant. And I look back on some of the dance teaching videos. And I was like, Oh, I competed. I competed. I was six months pregnant when we won a Melbourne Hip Hop championships. So that was exciting. My photos of me holding a trophy with my little bumps are very, very cute. And yes, still dance with Luca. When I was pregnant with him. I was asked to be in swing with the stars that year, Kim Sela, who owns hot, one of the owners of hat. She asked me to be in and I hadn't told anyone I was pregnant. I said, you know, I'd love to but guess what, I'm actually pregnant. And this poor guy won't want to lift me by the time senior stuff comes around. He's gonna get good 20 kilos more than what he bargained for at the start. So, but yes, yes, I have never stopped anything. There hasn't been a year, I haven't danced since well, perhaps been open for 12 years. So since then. And again, that's something that you've got that, you know, satisfies your need, and then gives you that creative outlet as well. That's separate to the family side of life. Yeah, that's right. Another hobby? For sure. For sure. Yes, I can attribute a lot of my husband's amazing, he's very supportive. And you know, if I'm like, I'm going to the gym, or I've got dancing, or I'm just going to do a console or I'm doing this and that he's very supportive. He's like, yep, yep. And he knows what he married. So he doesn't not much surprised. And I'm saying with him, he's playing, he plays poorly. And he, you know, loves to go golfing. And we're very, we're very much like, we know, we need to go and do our own thing. And we need to be our own people. And so we try and definitely give each other as much time to do that as we can. When you first had Savannah, how how did you feel I was horrible. It was horrible. It was the hardest thing I have ever done. And it got no easy when I had Luca. When I had Savannah I think well, because I don't have I mean, my mum was here but we're obviously as I mentioned, she had left when we were quite young. So we're not we don't have a super close, you know, Mother Daughter bond that a lot of the people I see have. So I feel like possibly because I didn't have only Chris is literally my support. He's my support system. So I think because I only had him not only had him, he's great. But yeah, he doesn't know anything about being a mom, because he was doing that same time I was so yeah, I really struggled. I found the most difficult. Yeah, I don't know. I think the breastfeeding that that was I remember that being just I remember thinking that was gonna be so easy. They just latch not didn't even know the word latch. And they're just like, oh, and then you you have them and you're like, What the hell is this? Oh my God, everything hurts. Everything is so hard. Everyone's telling you different opinions. At one of I'd only had one other friend who had had a baby. So it was just Yeah, it was really difficult. I was very, very sad. Very sad for probably the first three months and then we decided to sleep train her. I know everyone's got different opinions on that. We decided to slip trainer took two nights was the best thing we've ever done and and yeah, I was just a different human once I started getting some sleep. Yeah, everything became a bit easier on a routine. So yeah, and then Luca came along two years later, and I fell in a heap again, I was just like, Oh God, this is no easier. I had a two year old running around and yeah, I don't know. I just wasn't for me, not the new bond thing. I love their ages now. But I would literally prefer to walk the depths of hell than have a newborn again. I'm not kidding. Yeah, you can I think I don't think enough people are honest about it's it's not all sunshine and roses and sparkles. It's it's bloody hard work and it's definitely not and it depends on your support system. I think I think it depends on who you've got around you to help you. And, and you know, people have good babies not good babies but people have different kinds of babies. Some babies are great. Some babies are just harder than others. Some are have colic, I don't know, you know, there's just so many variables that no one that's why no one can tell you what it's going to be like, because no one knows. We're just gonna have to wait and see. Yeah, surprise to go. Lucky no healthy and happy. Oh my God So were you able to then once we talk about Savannah, like you're able to, as she got older, you got more sleep able to return to some of the things that you really wanted to? Yes, see. So I never stopped dancing, which was great. But when I used to go, it would literally be I'd, I stopped teaching but I went just to I think I was doing two classes a week, when I could, you know, after the six weeks when I could go back and every every time for the first I can't even remember, maybe like two to three months, Chris would message me and say home as quick as you can. And find him with, you know, on the bathroom floor with a hairdryer going on the vacuum going just trying to cut them down until I'd got home. We were honestly like the blind leading the blind around here. Um, so, you know, but every week I was like good luck. So yeah, I'll be back. Like there was a one or two hours a week that I had. So I definitely kept doing that. And then probably she started going to childcare. And, um, I was that was pretty much just for me time I wasn't I did a little bit of photobooth work, but that pretty much that wasn't like a big you know, admin job that was mainly when you're at the events on the weekend. So yeah, look, just being able to eat lunch in peace and clean the house and you actually get a job finished that was I highly recommend that I feel like some parents or mums who don't have a job, they never have a day off from their child. And it's like, no, you need to be getting that child into childcare and having an idea so you might need to get your eyebrows down. You might want to cook a meal you might want to go out for lunch with someone and you know, absolutely that is so important teacher that I mean at some point they're gonna have to go to school and kindy so you might as well get them used to little kitten you know hanging out with other kids before they get so old that they no different you know, when they're young and they're you know, under two they're like, so palatable. Is that the world? Yeah, yeah, you can try to just make them do whatever. They don't have this little sass attitude where they'll tell you what's up so yes, I, I she started doing that. And then I can't remember I was I must have had Luca already. And I was at a women in business dinner and Kelly nodes who worked for Ash, who does still, she was pregnant. And so I walked over to the table. I didn't really know I knew ash and Kelly, but I didn't know them super well. But I was just like, I would love that job. What a time. Yes, that is right up my alley. And so I just walked over there and I was like, Hi girls. How are you? I'm just so you know, if you need someone to replace Kelly, I'm your girl. And that was it. She hired me straightaway. So that was fantastic. I love that and I've been there for a year and a half two years I think so yeah, that was another little I added because Luca Luca was probably a year old by that stage so I was ready to take on a bit more work and I yeah work there two days a week with her so yes, yes, it's great timing to sort of start something new and get a bit more back into the work work industry again. Yeah, absolutely. Another example of you deciding you want something and just going in doing it. Exactly yeah. I'm always I'm always scared but I'm very big on the just because like scared and can't be the reason you don't do something you can be scared three years scared as you're likely still got to do it. You still have to do it. So I was like, petrified to walk over to that table. You know, in front of everyone and I love it. I was like well you still have to do it though. Like you can't not do it just because you're a big scaredy cat like get to But So yeah, I went missing you just gotta you gotta take what you want. Like, yeah. weaken, and they're lucky to have you whoever you are. If you want to do something and you know you're good at it, go and do it. I'm definitely quote me on that one. For me, yeah. Sorry. Well, something else I'd like to explore with my guests is the concept of mum guilt? And I'm going to put that Yes. Once again. Yeah. What's your take on that? How do you feel about that? Oh, yeah, I feel like mom guilt is definitely a thing. Whether you want to call it that, or not, definitely, I feel I feel mom guilt. But I don't really let it weigh me down. I, I feel like, yeah, you know, I might not be so well, this is a great example. I've got my my son's home with me two days a week, he goes into care three days a week, and he stays home with me two days a week. And on those two days, I'm working from home for my business or for Ash, or I'm doing something, you know, around the house, I'm cleaning, or there's a million things to be done. If I hadn't taken on a second job, which is my interior design, I would have all this time in the world to spend with him. And, you know, whatever, you know, play. And sometimes I think he's getting the wrong end of the stick. But then I think he's not really he's so happy to be here, he's happy to have a couple of rest days. Because these are above the days, he's so busy and going and doing stuff. And I think at the end of the day, you might feel guilty doing something or going here and doing something for you. But you can take you can see that your child's happy, like I can see my kids are always happy. When I leave the house, I do leave the house a lot. Like I'll go to the gym, or I'll go dancing, or I'm going to consult or I'm going to see a client about something they're either going to do a job, and they're quite often, especially Savannah shoes, like please don't go again. Mom, please don't leave me. And you do you feel bad knitting, I'm sorry. But you know, what are you gonna do? personal message me and I won't have men down the down the end of the street? And he'll be like, she's fine. Hmm. And, and I always think this is what when I start to feel guilty, I think, Do I have any memories of my mom leaving to go and do something? No, because I happened every single day, it's not something that's gonna they're going to remember, it's not going to impact them, you know, it's not going to scar them for life that you've gone to the grocery store. Like, just yeah, I really, I'm really not into the Yeah, the guilt thing. I just, I mean, obviously, I feel it, but that's not going to stop me from doing whatever needs to be done that day. And you can definitely gauge those moments, you know, she's sick, or you know, or something. And they really do need you. Um, you know, they're the moments where you're like, no worries, like, I won't go today, or I can, I can skip that that's easy, you know, we'll stay home. And, you know, I think every mother can tell what their child really needs. And when the child is just putting on a show. Because they do it every day. So you just have to start to learn which shows you need to pay attention to. And also I think I've been home with you all day, or like we've been together, you know, we spent three hours this morning together. And then two hours this afternoon, your father's just walked in the door, you can spend half an hour with him before it while I'm gone. I think you can. Like it's not I'm not a one parent show. You've got to and you need to learn to enjoy both. Do you find that that experience that you have, as a mother might sort of sneak through into the way that you've reflected in the way that you might put a room together? I think definitely I think that the experience of being a parent and a mother probably affects everything. Every every way, everything I do in life, a great gives great perspective of on, you know, when you're when you're younger, and you don't have children and think I'm so tired. And now you think, Well, that was funny. Like it gives you such good perspective on actual what's really hard in life. And so it definitely is I yeah, I love the perspective it gives being a mother. And definitely in my design work, especially when doing family homes. If the family has children, it's always very handy because you just yeah, it gives me such a great insight as to what actually needs to be considered the height of a bench, how sharp it's going to be where coffee table is going to sit. They're going to be able to run through without you know, hitting a toy, you know, 10 different things, what their bedrooms are going to look like and how they're going to use them. So yes, definitely definitely handy. Having kids is gives great perspective on all things in life, whether you realize it or not probably. Yeah. And I guess you'd be able to maybe make recommendations to clients that might not have considered something because you've got that experience. So the Especially during like nurseries and things like that with new Yeah, when they, when they're new, I think my main thing is don't spend too much because it's gonna get covered in vomit. Don't make it too expensive, because if you want to throw it out and it's expensive you aren't, whereas it's not too bad, you just like, throw it out, donate, I don't want to look at it, let's not even bother with it. Ya know. And I guess too, because you've been there, you realize that maybe I don't want to say things, the things that they think are important, maybe aren't as important. I don't want to say in that way, but has a nice, I feel like it's always nice for someone to be able to give you some guidance. If from I am like this in life, if someone knows something more than me, and they've had more experience with something, I want them to share their, their opinions with me, I feel like a lot of people get their backup when someone tries to tell them. I mean, obviously, there's ways of doing it tries to tell them a certain way. But if someone has more experience in something than you do, and I'm loved, like, especially with my line of work with carpenters and things like that, they know so much. And I want to learn it all I, you know, learning how to use the drill for the first time a couple of years ago, like I don't do it for me, I want to learn how to do it. And I'm more than happy to take on the criticism and the constructive criticism, not just criticism. And you know, I'm happy to listen and tell me as many times as it's going to take for me to get it right. And I think that about everything. I think if someone knows more than you and obviously they're happy and willing to teach you in a kind way, then it's amazing. Like you can never learn too much and every everything in life is going to turn into a skill if you can learn it the right way. So thank you so much for coming on the show. Alex. It's been an absolute pleasure having you. Thank you so much for having me. This has been awesome. I look forward to chatting with you again soon.

Fiona Valentine Melbourne artist + artist business coach S2 Ep54 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes ) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Fiona Valentine, a visual artist + a business coach for artists based in Melbourne, Victoria, and a mother of 2. Fiona grew up a creative child, her mother enjoyed drawing, she was influenced by her, she received her first oil paint set at the age of 12, and she did some training in high school to hone her skills in oils and drawing. After high school finished, Fiona took a trip overseas. It was during this trip that she met her her husband and her life took on a whole new adventure. At 23 years of age Fiona found herself with a new baby, living in a mud hut in Niger in Africa. She put her art aside, feeling that in light of the poverty and suffering around her, that it felt frivolous, it didn't seem like it had a place. This was a decision she has since regretted. During her 30s Fiona was back in Australia, with 2 children. She then realised how crucial her art was to her life balance, she taught herself watercolour and acrylic. She delved into training, joining the Australian Guild of Realist Artists. The life changing training she received lead her to share her love of artwork and to become a business coach for artists. Fiona credits her deep relationship with God as a huge support in the time where she delved back into her creativity. We chat today about how finding your creativity can enhance other parts of your life, creating new neural pathways in your brain, finding new ways to create and looking at things differently. **This episode contains discussions around post natal depression, autism + Asperger's syndrome** Connect with Fiona website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website What is a lean specialist? Kate Northrup book "Do Less" Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the bonding people as the traditional owners of the land which his podcast is recorded. Thank you so much for joining me. My guest this week is Fiona Valentine, vas a visual artist and a business coach for artists based in Melbourne, Victoria, and she's a mom of two. Fiona grew up as a creative child. Her mother enjoyed drawing. She was influenced by her and received her first oil paint set at the age of 12. She did some training in high school to hone her skills in oils and drawing. After High School finished, Fiona took a trip overseas. It was during this trip that she met her husband and her life took on a whole new adventure. At 23 years of age, Fiona found herself with a newborn baby living in a mud house in New Year in Africa. She put aside her art, feeling that in light of the poverty and suffering around her, then it felt frivolous. It didn't seem like he had a place. This was a decision that she has since regretted. During her 30s Fiona was back in Australia with two children. She then realized how crucial her art was to her life balance. She taught herself watercolors and acrylics. She delved into training, joining the Australian guild of real estate artists. The life changing training she received led her to share her love of artwork, and to become a business coach for artists. Fiona credits her deep relationship with God as a huge support in the time where she delves back into her creativity. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression, autism and Asperger's syndrome. The music you'll hear today is from Australian New Age ambient music trio lmJ which features myself my sister Emma Anderson, and her husband John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Lovely to meet you. Lovely to meet you too nice to meet somebody who's podcasting on this continent. Oh whereabouts are you? I'm in Melbourne. Our lovely my mum was born in Altona that down at the beachside suburb. So it's been a lot of time going to Melbourne over the years. So yeah, we my sister was born in Adelaide. So while our family were there, so we've been done the South Australia Victoria. Have you gone through Mount Gambier much on your way? Between there you go the the upwards upwards route? Well, we were actually in Moogerah for a few years. So we often also between Algeria and Adelaide. Yeah, I've done that. And yeah, I don't I don't think we went through Mount Gambier very often. Is that where you are? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm getting an amount. Yep. Not many people like that. I talked to on you know, Mount Gambier at all. So I know people have lived there, but I don't think I've ever actually been there. Yeah. Okay, I was born here. But I've lived all over. I grew up pretty nomadic childhood. And I lived in like four countries. The first five years I was married. We've been settled in the same street in Melbourne for nearly 20 years now, which is great. That would be really hectic, like moving like countries, little line moving, you know, towns moving countries. Yeah, you get good at it. You probably wouldn't like want to accumulate too much stuff, either. Because you sort of, you know, when you go next place, you'd be like, Oh, I don't want to take too much baggage, I suppose. Yeah, you learn. You don't want to have to carry too much with you. But you also learn to I think that objects are they have a sacredness about them and you can't just clear out everything because they hold our stories. And you want to take some of that familiarity and comfort with you even in an overseas move, which gets trickier because you have to weigh everything Tell us about yourself. You're watercolor artists and you are an art coach as well can you share sort of how you got into painting like growing up what you was, was that sort of your main art form of there any influences how you got into it, I really, I just always enjoyed the idea of being creative. And painting and drawing. Were very interesting to me. My mom was really supportive. And she liked to sketch and I still have my first oil paint box that she bought me when I was 12. And I got some really good training, when I was in high school, living in the country, just a really tiny school. But we did some courses on drawing and watercolor. So I got some good skills early on, which was really helpful. And then later I had, I worked with an artist who taught us how to draw from little still life settings and things like that gave me a bit of oil painting, tuition, but then I didn't really do a whole lot with it. I went overseas after high school. And I thought I was going on a six month trip to teach kids to read. And the trip got extended, I met my husband, we got married here in Australia and went back overseas. So my life took a little bit different path than I thought it was going to. And so I found myself with a new baby in a madhouse in Africa, thinking that my creativity felt really self indulgent and frivolous. And I made a really bad decision to just sort of put it aside because in light of poverty and suffering, and it just didn't seem like it had a place. But that was just, you know, her 23. What did I know? If I'd had another voice at the time helping me see how these things could work together, it would have been really helpful. But instead, yeah, I hit my 30s, my, I had two girls, by now I was back in Australia. And I really started to understand how core creativity was, to me, as a person to all human beings. We're just we're born creative, we just don't always recognize it, or develop it. And I really began to treasure that and see how crucial it was to my balance and well being as a human. For me, it was a connection with God as well, just that was how I was wired, for relationship with him. So I really made it a priority. I'm mobile, I read everything I could from the library, and taught myself first of all, watercolor. And then I moved on to acrylic, and then finally got my brave up to try oil. And I just loved it. And that's where I started to get some training. Then I joined the Australian guild of realist artists. And they were running winter schools for a few years, we could go for a week and spend time with some master artists. And it was absolutely life changing fan tastic got introduced to much more skill based training for realism, and composition and drawing and painting and color use. And it was wonderful. So that really helped me build my skills and understand how to create the kind of art that I was really interested in. There are so many things you've just said in there that I want to ask you about. But the one that sticks out is the mud hot living in Africa. Can you give us a bit of background, how you actually ended up there? What was the circumstances that brought you to living there? It wasn't something I ever thought would happen. When I chose this trip of going to Africa, I thought I'd be in a fairly rural setting. But for just a few months, it turned out I was in a large town that was you know, had stores and cars and all that sort of thing, electricity. And I lived with another couple. After I met my husband, we went back to that same town and we worked in an international school. And so we were helping kids with transition. We did some training in the US, which actually helped us as well as everybody else on how to make those big moves and handle them. When you're going across cultures. Maybe you've spent many years in one culture and now you're moving permanently to another one. Just how that affects us was fascinating stuff. And then we moved in Tunisia and we live just south of the Sahara desert in very small mud village. And it wasn't actually a heart although it was mud. It didn't have electricity or running water. It was sort of like a three bedroom house, and we put a kitchen in one of the so called bedrooms, and and nothing was really square. And it was very hot. So we slept outside. Oh, wow. And sort of had to run the hose at three in the morning because we were on a bit of a hill, when the rest of the town didn't have the water on, we could actually get the hose to work and fill up some barrels with water. Oh my gosh. So it was pretty crazy. We had some solar power. Yep. And we would go bushing outfall drive because we were working with nomads, so we would go out and stay with them slip on sand. The stars were amazing. But it was a pretty full on existence, you know, just making sure you had clean water, putting it through the filter, baking bread, ground grinding meat, just surviving was an language learning was pretty tough with a with a new baby. It was a pretty extreme, really extreme time. But we weren't there terribly long. After about 18 months, we came back to Australia. And we had planned to go back. But for lots of reasons it it was clear to us it was right to stay here in Australia. And we had another baby and daughter life here. Yeah, though, like, let alone, you know, take the fact that you've got a baby out of the mix, that would still be incredibly challenging. But then obviously, that's a whole like, yeah, that's like I can't get around that was really big. And for lots of reasons. Although I loved it. I loved being there. And I was really committed to being there to what we were doing. It also took a heavy toll on me. And I think part of that, I mean, often, postpartum depression can be a thing that we face, whether that's hormones, or whatever it is. And being separated from my support system. I think that was a big part of it, too. A friend who's a psychologist who works with moms, has identified grief, actually, if we're separated from our mother, by, you know, could be relationship reasons, or, or death or distance. But when we don't have that mother support that village, that other women in our life caring for us, we actually go through grief, but it's often not recognized. Often it's misdiagnosed as depression. That was another piece I learned recently that made me think, Aha, I think there was some of that going on. Plus the creative piece of making that choice to think no, no. In this context, that would just be so self indulgent, instead of saying no, no, it would have been something to really help me navigate that tough time. Yeah, I can certainly appreciate where you're coming from both sides of the coin there. Yeah, I can imagine if you're if you're Yeah, if you if you're worrying about having, you know, potable water that you're, you know, that's important. And then if you're using water to paint, you'd think or is that the right thing to do you know what I mean? You'd be questioning this the ethics behind it, I suppose, like, you know, if people are struggling to get clean water, and I'm using it to dip my paintbrush eat like, you know what I mean? Yes, yes, just the simple things can feel indulgent. And there's also a strange feeling of if someone else is suffering, then who am I to not be suffering? And, yeah, you can't go into a situation in a third world country as a Westerner and not feel that there's a difference in lifestyle here. There has to be if I if I didn't maintain drinking water, or you know, some measure of Western food, I probably wouldn't survive. I haven't grown up learning to just deal with a particular environment. Yeah, a harsh environment. So there's some of it, that's necessity, but trying to work out. How much of that helps and how much just be free of it. It's just the way it is. And just be be myself and understand that these women around me, they're enjoying their creativity. It may be different than the way I would Yeah, but they're embroidering. They're making designs. They like the way things look. And they love having a new dress like I do. They're just doing it slightly differently in their context. I didn't need to feel that way. I understand why I did. But if I'd had, I guess, probably just some more time to grow up. If I had more understanding, I could have been kinder to myself. But I think even now, you know, I think people when they see trouble in the world, they can feel like their creativity isn't as important and the need to do something really makes a difference. And they forget that actually, our creativity is hugely powerful both for our own coping stress, and for the things that we make, and how they help create home environments that help us cope with stress, or work environments that help us be productive, or healthcare environments that heal. So if if creativity is something that's really your thing, whether it's music, whether it's art, it's so powerful. When you're saying, talking, then I just had that thought, just recently with the conflict in Ukraine, that there was a footage I saw of a, a gentleman whose son had been in the hospital with being traded in Ukraine, and as the son had been finally discharged, and the dad played his saxophone for the, the doctors and nurses and the other patients there as his little thank you. And, you know, you think that if you play the saxophone or sing or something, you think that so simplistic, I do that all the time. But in that context, you know, the, the joy that it can bring others in, you know, the emotions, and the connection that it creates, you know, is huge, you know, and remembering to do that for ourselves, and our own household, and the people who buy our albums or buy our paintings. It's not just about racing off to a part of the world that suffering and doing something about it, although we feel that it's often just seeing how am I bringing the healing of creativity, the joy of it to my everyday life? My family's everyday life? And my customers everyday life? Yeah, that's, that's so important. That's it, that's a massive point. When you came back to Australia, when was the point that you sort of realized, I'm feel like I've lost myself, I've lost my creativity. And I need to get it back. You talked about you started to do some reading and stuff was there one moment where you just went, I need to change this was it sort of, there were a couple of moments, I knew I was underweight, struggling with my mental health, and not in a good place, which kind of surprised me, because I had been so excited about being in Africa, and so committed to the work that we were doing. But that doesn't stop environments, and even the spiritual environment we're in, and an environment where placing curses on people is a part of normal, everyday life. And if you've never encountered that, and don't really think it's a thing, that doesn't mean it's not a thing. So it was a lot in that environment that I was perhaps only even partially aware of. So I knew when I got back, I needed something needed to change. And I, I kind of felt like creativity was part of it. So gardening was a gentle beginning. As I became more confident in how important my creativity was, quilting became part of it. And then eventually, I was like, Okay, I really want to make space for painting. And a few years had gone by at this point. And there were some, some theological learnings, really just discovering that God is three persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that their community of friendship and joy is creative. That was a real lightbulb moment for me as a Christian going, Wow, that my creativity is not just my thing, and a self indulgent thing, it's deeply core to the nature of God and the relationship has invited me into and for me, that was the biggest, okay, I get it, I get why this is core to who I am, and to my life and to my relationship with God. And it gave me the freedom to say I'm going to pour resources at this time I'm going to invest in growing my creative skills and drawing and painting in the way that I've been wanting to. For years I've been dabbling with music and gardening and quilting, but yeah, just it gave me the yes let's dive in. Yeah, yeah, almost like that. That not permission but that reassurance I suppose that you felt like yes, this is this is it and this is important and it is a value and I can see Yeah, that I'm supporting this I suppose as well. You felt really sure really comfortable with that. So you also work as an art Coach, can you share with us about what you do there? I've been teaching drawing and painting for a few years. And that was how I made the transition from being an admin manager. After homeschooling my kids, I needed a job, they went to school. And that's what I ended up doing. I learned a lot of business skills doing that. And then I just the desire to paint more got really strong. So I built up workshops and classes on the side until I could replace my salary. And during that process, that teacher, part of me, really came alive again. And so I've been juggling my own painting and teaching for quite some time. And I started to have this desire to teach beyond just the class session, because I could see the transformation that was happening in people's lives. So I started luxury art retreats, where women could come for three days, we went to the Yarra Valley, state and beautiful country hotel. And I taught them my six keys to painting, and just watching their dreams come alive, because I get them to start with, who are you? What do you love? What do you enjoy? What subject is most important to you? What style do you like the most start there. And then just learned those things, because there isn't time to learn everything. So learn how to make the kind of art that you most like making. I mean, if you're a musician, you don't feel like you have to sing classical jazz country. You don't have to do it all you kind of know what you like. And you go with that. Yeah. So I kind of took that pathway with helping my students find focus. And then watching these women come live and realizing as I was growing my own art business, and investing in courses and coaching, learning, aha, that this message, I'm hearing so often that it's really hard to sell art. Or you need to get into art shows and win awards. Or you need to get gallery representation. And this is how you do it. I started to think now I think there's another way and I started to realize the entrepreneurial opportunity of the internet for artists. So I started building, how to help artists move on from painting, to being able to do what I've done, and create a side hustle from the art and even a full time business. And so now that's really what I focus on. As a business coach for artists, I've created the profitable artist method. And I teach artists how to get clarity on what they really want to make, and who it's for. Get clarity on how much time they want to spend and how much money they want or need to make. And to build a simple business and marketing plan from there. Yeah, right. That's awesome. Because I think that there is there is this not what the word is, this can be a misconception, I suppose at least this way we see the starving artists, you know that, you know, art's not a real job, you can't make money out of art, you know, and you're basically kicking that to the curb and going no, actually, if you do it in the, you know, particular way, in a particular method, then there's so many opportunities for making a living from your art, for sure. I believe real artists don't starve they thrive. But it does mean recognizing that as an artist, you're not only an art ambassador, you're also an artist, entrepreneur, you're in business, if you want to make a living from your art, and that doesn't. That's not selling out. That's not compromising your creativity. It's an extension of it. Yeah, so it's looking at it in a different way of, you know, taking ownership of it and seeing it as a business rather than I don't know, just a hobby in real cities. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's it. And that can be a challenging mindset, I think for for some people to sort of see that in the barriers, like you said that that selling out mentality, which I'm putting in air quotes. That, yeah, it's, it's if it's what you want, then why should you be held back by you know, maybe some beliefs that you've had in the past or people around you have these certain beliefs? Do you encounter encounter sort of that sort of pushback from people when they're going through that transition? Yes, it can be there, even if they don't fully believe it for themselves. Maybe they doubt themselves? Have I got what it takes? Or they worry? It's about talent? How do I know if I'm talented enough? Whereas actually, I think the more we understand brain science, the more we realize, the people we have thought were the most talented, have actually benefited from training and practice. Those are skills that have been developed. It's not really even in the case of someone like Mozart. It's not just about talent. It's about the environment, the training, the practice, the discipline, that It's really liberating. Because if you can learn art skills to grow your art ability, you can also learn business skills to grow, that even if you're not techie, or you've never had business experience, there are some really simple things you can do. To make sure that as you create work, you share that work with people who love what you love, and can afford to buy it. And you make a buying experience, which these days we can do online, so that they can buy from you. And you create this whole ecosystem using social media and an email list and website. So you, I mean, you're asking that pushback. Yes, there's pushback, but really, there are a lot of people who hold on to this sort of toxic suffering starving artist thing. I just think why you don't need to. So ask yourself, Do I want to thrive? Do I want to make art I love and make a living and build a life I love or do I want to starve for me? I know which one I want? Yeah, that's awesome. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. I want to talk a bit about your own children. Can you share? You've got two children. I've got two girls and they're grown and in their 20s. Now, yeah. One's a nurse. And one has worked as a library assistant. She's currently doing some writing and working, helping me actually quite a bit at home. And yeah, they aren't at all. They yes or no, no, in the sense that neither of them have a desire to be making drawings and paintings. They're both quite creative. My oldest daughter who's a nurse is very creative. And she really brings just this amazing problem solving people caring, empathic sense to her nursing and palliative care. And the other ones come up with a really creative ways of challenging kids who don't love reading, to do a six chapter challenge. That's what she calls it. Read the first six chapters of this book I recommend, and if you still don't like it, I'll give you another one. By the time they get six chapters in their heart, yeah, lots of converts. So yeah, their creativity comes out in different ways than art. That sort of goes back to what you were saying earlier about how we are innately who humans are creative beings. But I think there's a lot of people that discount that in themselves. And even some women that I've approached to be on this podcast, perhaps looking at themselves a different way to where I am as a as an outsider, I see someone who is creating something who's, you know, has created something from scratch and is, is making it work and making changes to it as they go. And I see that as a creative person. And they'd say, Oh, but I don't make anything that cycle. It's not about necessarily making something and having something in your hand that right. Yeah, can you can you sort of expand on that a little bit? Yeah, my husband, Mike is a lien specialist these days. I don't know if you've come across the lien. But it's a whole system of tools and behaviors that helps businesses to work efficiently and helps them to value people and use tools and systems so that they can reduce waste, reduce overwork, not pass on poor quality, things like that. So it makes millions of dollars worth of difference to big companies. But the principles are really amazingly simple and helpful. So as he and I've talked over the years, you know, having a glass of wine sitting down, he's talking about Lean, I'm talking about art talking about our day. We've just seen how many of these things come together. So I actually created a program for businesses called The Art of innovation, using classical drawing to help businesses see 50% of people don't think they're creative. The reality is 100% of us are and if you're going to have a business committed to continuous improvement, you've got to help your people tap into their creativity. They're not going to be creative if they don't think they've got the goods. So add a drawing can be a great way to realize Oh, with a bit of training, oh my goodness, look at that amazingly realistic. Foot I just drew, with these three steps you just taught me Wow. Okay, I'm more creative than I thought. And it's not that being creative is about making art, as you said, or making anything is about recognizing I have this potential, to think of something, to think about it, to think about the problems, to think about the solutions, and to make changes. And my thinking, and my ideas want to understand how my brain works, and how I make tiny new connections that feel so awkward and uncomfortable, and how they can grow. And with repetition, they can practice and develop until we've got like these superhighways of information in our heads where things travel quick, fast, then we can have the courage to grow and change at work, and doing things new ways, problem solving, collaborating, where we've got different opinions coming together, we can realize this feels really uncomfortable right now. But as we persevere, we're gonna get through it, we're gonna come through to the solution. And drawing models that process, that life process. So these workshops are powerful in helping businesses unlock their creativity, for all of the applications within business. Because yeah, you're right, it's like, I think, in COVID, sort of presented so many opportunities for looking at doing things in different ways. And unless somebody feels as though they've got the confidence to think differently, or think like that, but they won't, I think, and then if you, like you said, you open up one tiny little bit of creativity, where they can physically see that they are capable. And then you must just see them thrive, they must just go, oh, my gosh, what else am I capable of, you know, and it gives them that confidence, to share their ideas and to look at things in different ways and challenge things. Yeah. And once you've got those neural pathways in your head, if you struggle through the awkward learning phase, the learning phase of anything feels like trying to write with your with the wrong hand. If you've ever broken an arm and had to write with your other hand, it feels terrible. Yeah, yeah. If you've never done it, try it. It's awful. That feeling is like, that's what learning anything feels like, but you get through it. And then those neural pathways are available for different skills. And that's where it gets really exciting. Yeah, yeah. It's like, just because it worked for one thing, then your brain can connect it to, to sort of reach other outcomes that possibly weren't able to be accessed before. Yeah, yeah, that's really fascinating. That's, like very clever to be able to recognize that you could put those two things together and, and make something that's of such value. Because I feel like, at different times, you know, the government comes out with these different ideas that they're going to train the next generation of whatever. And these these jobs haven't been thought of yet, and, and stuff like that. But then you think, how do they actually do that? You know, doesn't make sense to me. But then you say something like this, that makes perfect sense. Like, you know, it's like, you're just you're discovering things that haven't, you haven't had the chance to discover before? Because your brain hasn't been like that. Yeah. And that process that you're talking about? Michael Gallup, who wrote a book called, how to think like Leonardo da Vinci, he says that creative endurance is the most distinctive trait of highly creative people. And it's that ability to push through it when it feels yuck. When it feels uncomfortable, unfamiliar, I'm stuck at this, I can't do it. And you realize this is just a phase. And you get some help you get some training, you do some practice, you persevere, and pretty soon, you've got a new skill. That's what people need that. I am creative. I can learn new things. If we give that to people, then yeah, we can problem solve, change careers. Do whatever. Yeah, that's awesome. I love that that is really cool. One of the things I like to talk to my moms about on this show is the concept of mum guilt. Do you sort of find or talk about yourself, but also want to talk about people that you work with? Is that something that sort of holds people back creatively mums, in particular, that they feel like when they've got to do something, when they've got to paint or they've got to create, it's at the expense of their children so they feel guilty about doing it? I think it can be there. I think we're experts at coming up with guilt over all sorts of things, and mothering right? Am I living? Right? Have I done enough? Am I enough? And just recognizing that's part of the journey, particularly when you pick up creativity, for some reason. Creativity is just opposed. People have written books about it. It's not even just internal, it's something outside of ourselves. And recognizing that gives you a bit of something in your backbone that says, this does matter. This is good for my kids, when I'm being a whole person when I'm being creative when I'm modeling joy for them. I mean, the challenge is that our time is narrow, as moms, yeah, even when our kids are grown, you know, we're an important part of the family. And so often, the time we thought we'd set aside gets interrupted or changed or, but just knowing that when we think well, about creativity, when we think well about boundaries, when we think well, about being primarily responsible for ourselves, putting on our oxygen mask, before we help someone else, that's just a healthy way to live, then I think, I encourage the women that I work with, to make space for their creativity in three ways, some time, a place, and a process. And if you need to go to the dentist or the doctor, you make time you make an appointment, and understanding your creativity is healthy, it's healthy for you tell the kids to follow and watch the way that you're choosing to live. So making some time and last is going to look different, if you've got littles if you've got school aged kids, and you're working as well. But whatever it is, even if it's just five or 10 minutes, having a few sessions a week, in your diary, then your creative time, I worked with a businesswoman who was very time poor as a mum. And we built her a sketchbook that she could take on the train. Yeah, we built a plan, build a bunch of reference material and some training. So she could whip out a sketchbook and have a few minutes to draw on the train, whatever it looks like, if you can make some time learn a process, it's just gonna really help and to have a place to do it, her place was in a sketchbook on the train, which meant she had to have a little pencil bag that worked. And two, she could use without, you know, jabbing the person next to her. But if you you might have some space in your house, it might not be a whole room. But it might be a container with your art supplies. So you can just pull it out on the table and get started, whatever is gonna work for the life stage that you're in. It might be really, really simple. Yeah. And I think that's a really important point. Because I think it can be daunting for anyone, when they decide they're going to take up a new a new art or new craft or return to it, where it's like, oh, but I need all this space, or I need all this time, I need to have a room for it. And, you know, that can be really overwhelming and a real barrier. But like you're saying, it's about thinking maybe thinking outside of that, that box that you've you've put that into thinking outside of that and saying, you know, I love that example, you know, doing it on the train on the commute? Like, I've never thought of that. I mean, I don't have that in my life. So that's not something I ever thought of. But yeah, that's just it's so refreshing to think like that, that it's not limiting. And it's not. It doesn't have to be the way that you might have thought it had to be. That's right. And when you take stock of how much time do I really have? Am I a morning person or a night person? Where are those little pockets and being realistic about how big they are? I call that loving your limits? Yeah, right, and recognizing what they are because actually, I think it can really help you focus if your limit if you have a time and space limit that might influence the medium that you choose, you might stick to drawing, or you might choose watercolor over oils. And if you're really limited space wise that might affect the size that you choose to work. So as you're loving your limits and working it out, you're finding focus and finding your style finding your way I know an artist who paints gorgeous portraits, but she will just do the eye sometimes, and she'll paint it on a silver spoon. Oh wow. Or in a little teeny weeny box beautiful little box flip open the lid and put a tiny little scene inside. Oh, really mind blowingly creative stuff. So sometimes loving your limits can help you find a way that's really unique. Yeah I've had to say that's incredibly unique, isn't it? And then that I guess that you use that as part of your business that you have got this uniqueness. And you and you build on that. Exactly. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? I think it's a lot of it's about, you know, changing, long held beliefs about what it means to be an artist or be a creative. Right, right, from the very basic of, like you said, finding out what you actually enjoy. Like, I'm a singer, and there's no way that I would go through, like you said, sing all these different styles when I know, the style that I love, and what I like to sing or write about, you know, if someone said to me, you know, write, write about whatever I'd go, well, that's, that doesn't resonate with me. And I guess it's the same with your painting. It's in the medium that you want to work with. And also this, like you said, the thing you're interested in painting? Yes, that's gonna change so much for everybody's No, it really is. And I think when we start there, what do I like? What am I like, as well? Where do I live? What's my personality? What drives me crazy? What colors do I love? What colors do I hate? That when you just look at yourself, you know yourself pretty well. Even if you haven't been paying attention, if you stop paying attention, you know yourself, you're standing there instead of what's the right way to do this. Because our fear and insecurity can make us want to learn right so that other people won't see that we don't know what we're doing. If we can get out of that mode and get into who am i What do I like? That's a much more helpful pathway, I think. Yeah, and I think too, social media is really good at showing us the best of everybody, you know, like, it's a very curated environment where people aren't going to show you the painting that that they painted over because they didn't like it. You know, you you're comparing your starting point to someone else's finishing point. And that can be really daunting as well. It really can. Yeah, and I think that whatever that opposition is to creativity, the criticizing voices that come up, it can be quite surprising. And just recognizing that's part of it. And I tell people collect as many affirmations as you can, you're going to need them. Telling yourself those kind things that yeah, don't don't compare the end of their story with the beginning of your story. And everybody's got out. They're not showing you. Yeah, that's an important thing to remember, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Do you just don't affirmations is one of my favorite ones. There's a friend of mine, who's a watercolor artist. And I did a course with her and her thing was art has no rules. And she put that on her. Like the packaging that the the box with all the art supplies in Julia reader, if you're listening, thank you. So I've got that has no rules on my little backboard where I paint, because that was my biggest thing. Like I've never been a painter, because I didn't know how to do it. And I thought that you had to know how to do something. Right before you could do it. Like I didn't do it in high school. I've never really done much with it. But the more I spoke to moms, on this podcast, I realized that art can be absolutely anything and done in any way. And that was my, just my lack of understanding and my own insecurities holding me back. So now I just love fluffing around painting. It's just so enjoyable. And it's another thing that I've added into my sort of creative, like care taking care of myself. It's been amazing. Yeah, it's exciting, isn't it to just have those things that are holding us back knocked out of the way and it can be such a self healing thing. My second daughter is on the autism spectrum and has a truckload of health challenges. And it was very stressful, particularly when she was younger. And just being able to go somewhere and go into another space and paint for a while was such a healing thing. And that the whole thing about art not having rules, there isn't one right way to do it. I would add to that to that. If if you find the style, the look the kind of art that you like, and you borrow into learning how to make that kind of art, you might find that there are actually some rules or principles that help you. Yeah, which is the flip side of the freedom and there isn't one way to do it. There aren't rules you can it can be whatever you want it to be. Yeah, if you're drawn towards detail and realism and beauty. That's okay, too. That's a wonderful thing. And there are a whole lot of wisdom learning training rules if you like That kind of sift that journey that cannot limit your creativity but actually give Yes. Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like that if you want to do it a particular way, there's going to be some skills that are going to be really useful for you to be able to produce what you want to produce, I suppose. Yeah, so yeah, that's thing, isn't it. And I feel like that with music too. Like, there's so many. This, you know, a billion ways you could write a song and, and it's so freeing to see people do do things. But then within that, there's still you know, the notes on the scale, they never changed. You know, those basic things about rhythm and things like that. So you've got that sort of guideline within it. But then within that you can do whatever you want. I suppose I said, diving into it, knowing the style of music you like, learning from masters within that particular style or genre of music. When they give you a tip, try it like this, or there's this kind of pattern, or, you know, if you jump off from here, or use this kind of key for this kind of, it's so exciting, isn't it to get those tools from someone, you just think oh, my goodness, you can do that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Exciting. You're listening to the art of being a man podcast with Alison Newman. So just coming back to mum guilt, your own personal sort of thoughts on that? Well, for me, it probably one area like it really came up was around, not knowing what I was dealing with, with my daughter Mikayla and her health challenges I knew before I brought her home from hospital, something was going on. I called the doctors in mentioned a couple of things, and they couldn't tell me what it was. So we did a round of specialists for a long time, and they couldn't tell me anything that just take a home lover, she'll be fine. And I knew there was more to it than that. And it wasn't until she was eight, that my mom who knew this journey I was on of trying to figure out what's going on with this kid because it's we're not. This is not just normal childhood milestones. Something's happening here. Yeah. And I can't figure it out. And she she went back to teaching and she asked a fellow teacher, I know this kid, these are those symptoms are what, what, what does it sound like to you. And that was the first time we heard about autism or Asperger's Syndrome. So I started reading, did my thing, borrow books from the library, like I'd done laying to paint. And I just sat there reading the Oasis guide to autism and Asperger's in my room, and the tears just started running down my face, because I realized this is my kid, somebody has just described to me what's going on in the inside. And I had no idea. And I could just see all the things I could have done differently, or the things I've been doing wrong. And just realize what this kid had been dealing with. I was clueless about. I knew something but it didn't know what it was. And it was both, you know, you feel the guilt that why didn't I figure it out before? Or, but I could have helped. And what can you do? You can't do anything but go on and be grateful that now you know, and do the best you can to love and measure can not as you can't Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? I think as moms we're really good at beating ourselves up over things that we could do absolutely nothing about things that are out of our control. Yeah, we've got to sort of make make it feel good for everybody. And then when it doesn't, it's it's our fault, even if it's not our fault. Yeah, and then when we do blow it plenty of times you know, we get snapping get your into ball, we get bossy we get whatever unfair. And I think just being honest with our kids, especially as they get older and just being able to say I'm sorry, I was really cranky. Or I'm sorry that really wasn't fair. I think that just goes a long way to because the fact is we're never gonna be perfect anything's we're here. We're humans. Yes, we're honest. We can we're fatally flawed. So then going to another topic I'd love to talk about is the concept of identity about how the concept of your own identity changed. When you did become a mum, did you go through sort of a shift? I mean, I know you were in a really different place in the world, like do you graphically in a different sort of area, but yeah, how did you sort of? How did you feel about that whole process of that change? I really wanted to be a mum, I was really keen to be a mum, I, I'd been married nearly four years when my first daughter arrived. And my whole life was so extremely different. We moved into this mud village when I was eight months pregnant. So oh, you know, I was not just adjusting to motherhood, I was adjusting to a completely different existence, different language, different everything. So it and because that happened for me young, because I went overseas when I did I met Mike when I did. When he thought I was 24. I thought he was 24. Turns out, there's a 10 year age gap. I ended up being a teenage bride and uh, you know, people, mother, yes. But when we came back to Australia, and I had the two girls and then homeschooling them for a while, I felt like it was really, in my late later 20s and 30s that I started to figure out. So who am I? I can my wife and I'm a mom, and I've, you know, been overseas and done these things. But what am I really like? Yeah, because I'm married to a young and went overseas into an extreme situation. So Young, I didn't even really have those late teens 20s of figuring out who you are, as an adult being a single person, I was already making a life with another person, which was hugely transformative as it is when two opposites try and make a life together. But yeah, I think that discovering who I am, came later. And that's one of the things I love about getting older, I'll be 50 this year. And I love that I don't love the fact that my body is changing, my skin's getting all my hairs. But I do, I do love the internal change of just being so much more confident in who I am having had more life experiences and knowing I just know myself better. I know, my strengths and my weaknesses, and some of those weird limiting messages. I've learned other things that are true that have helped. So I like that side of identity as you get older of just knowing yourself better. And I think it's just always changing. You know, I knew I wanted to learn to paint. I thought teaching was the way to build more of a painting life. And it's reminded me that actually, I'm a teacher at heart. And I love that as much or more than the creative process itself. So for me helping artists step into their full art life, their career as an artist entrepreneur, that is so fulfilling for me that I'm willing to put limits on my own painting to pursue that journey, because I can't do everything I'd love to be and do everything. But there's not enough hours in the day are there? Yeah, that's it, isn't it? But I think what you said there about enjoying getting older and coming to these realizations, I think that's something that a lot of us can relate to. It's something I certainly can relate to, like I'm about to be probably 44 later this year. And you know, the best times mentally, you know, you go through this, all these things as a youngster about all this doubt. And what do people think of me and all this judgment, and you get to a point in your life where you just go, ah, none of that matters, who gives a toss, you know, and I joked with a guest recently, like, everyone should think like a 40 year old woman because you, you just you don't care anymore. You know, you've got the things in your life that are important, the things that matter, you've worked out yourself. And you're like, No, everything else can just go by the wayside. So it's incredibly liberating time of life. And I think you get over the shock of, oh my gosh, like, I thought, I thought youth would last longer. This aging thing that used to happen to other people, it's happening to me, there's kind of grief about that, or at least there was for me, and getting over that and realizing ah, actually, the opportunity in the next stage of my life is actually even richer because my baby making user behind me even much I mean for me I started young so yay, I've got adults now not nobody's in school anymore. And I'm, I'm free to move on to enjoying all those things I've learned about myself now in a different way in this part of my life, and I really like that. Yeah, yeah, I can relate to you talking about like grieving changes. When I had to get glasses. It was like, when I finally said I have to get glasses it was just like this. No getting like this. The worst thing in the world that could possibly happen to anybody. You know. It's so self referred. Isn't it? passes on in the store. I was is my first year of classes to literally the tears welled up in my eyes because I look like an old lady to myself. Yeah, yeah, because that's the thing, we have these concepts of what it means to be old and get old. And for me glasses was one of those things. So then when I, when I got my glasses, and I put them on, and I actually they look nice, like, they don't look like my grandmother's glasses, you know, they were never going to, you know, but that's what I had in my head. And then I first time I wore them to work, I was really nervous that because I hadn't worked with children for nine years in childcare, and I was thinking all the kids are going to be trying to pull them off, and there'll be like, making a big deal. And I wore them for probably 20 minutes before any of the children said anything I could tell they were looking, but one of them come up, they said, our you've got glasses on. And I was like, Yeah, I do. And that was it. You know, so my own, you know, worries about how they'd be received. You was nothing to worry about, you know, we build all this stuff, we build these stories in our minds of what's gonna happen in life. Well, I do certainly mean that it doesn't come true. And instead of going, Oh, well, that was nice. I don't have to worry so much anymore. We're finding things that we oh gosh, yeah. I put that down a lot of it to being a Cancerian I think YTD for about everything. You talked about that your your art take second place to your other sort of work that you're doing. But that is still your creative work, isn't it like it's not as though your own, the physical act of creating might not be there as much, but what you've created and what you're sharing is a massive part of it. That's really important to you, isn't it to be really important to me? Yes, yeah. And I actually love the whole creative process of crafting a message, and learning how to communicate that through social media, through my website, through an email list. Communicating and cultivating that audience, I run a Facebook group for artists called the confident artist. And so helping that community in their creativity, and then stepping into sharing their art with the world, designing the training materials, you know, and the graphics and all of that, that whole process of that teaching process of taking knowledge and experience and questions, and just shared experience. And communicating that with others. That's a really important creative process for me. And part of drawing and painting is that decision, fatigue is a big part, we're making so many decisions about the work all the way along, whether it's designing the idea in the first place, how we're going to compose the composition, how we're going to mix the colors, how we're going to actually create those clouds, or render those leaves, what painting needs next, which particular method I'm going to use to solve that particular problem, it can leave you mentally drained. So in a season, I've just learned I have to have seasons. And if, if I'm in a season of making a body of work, it may not be the same season where I can be really promoting a coaching program like the profitable artist. And that's a hard and costly choice. But sometimes that just has to happen, you have to mind using my creativity in this area. So it might not like I tell my students that really you need about a 5050 balance between making your creative work and marketing your creative work. And that can feel shocking in the beginning. But it also doesn't mean that you divide up every day, with a 5050, half to each, you have to find your own rhythm, it might work for you to make in the morning, market in the afternoon. But it might also mean that you have a week where you paint, and then you have a week where you do the business side of things. It just depends on what works better for you. And you might find it works different in different seasons. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because you can sometimes get on a real roll. We all the ideas are coming. And you don't want to sort of have to put a timer on that and say, Oh, no, no, can't do that. Now, you can let that come and let that happen. Because then there's always times when you're not feeling like that. So that's the time is when you can do the practical work and, you know, that other side of things. That's, that's really important too. So yeah, I mean, that's the thing. We things always ebb and flow, don't they? No one can be everything all the time at the same level. You know, that's just it's just the nature of things, and especially being the nature of women to Kate Northrup. I wrote a book called, do less more, I think it's called. And in there, she talks about the fact that as women, we're on a 28 day cycle, whereas men are on a 24 hour cycle. And in some ways, we know all about that. But in other words, we don't know much about that. How often do we expect ourselves to be on a 24 hour work cycle. And we forget the fact that our energy ebbs and flows in really different ways that she's done a great job of mapping, the kinds of energy we have at different stages, in even if we're not actually cycling, like we were, when we were younger, even if you're at that life stage, you still have these rhythms of energy, rest, being more extroverted and more introverted. And that is a really helpful perspective, I think, to end to get to know yourself, when you're in that, wow, the ideas are just coming. Capture them go with it. And then when you're in that quiet, I'm just doing the work mode, I'm smashing it out. Or you're in the extroverted making connection space, or just that, who I need to refill the well. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? Yeah. And that's the thing, too, I think because, you know, as we're, there's different times in our life when we're so conscious of where we are in our cycle. And then there's other times in life where we just, it's not even on our radar. So and that's the thing to get back in touch with what, where we're at and what we feel at that time, and how that affects our creativity. And, yeah, I think that's a really important thing to think about. Because sometimes just sneaking away for power nap, is actually going to be more productive in the long run, than just trying to push through. Yeah, that's so important. I think there's this, there's been this massive, sort of focus on, I don't know what they call it like the, you've got to be productive all the time. You're smashing out things. And you've got the, I can't remember what they used to be this hashtag about? I don't know, you get where I'm coming from that hustle culture? Sort of Yeah. And you've just, it's almost like wrist was something that you'd give yourself as a reward, not as something that is part of just your, your regular life, I suppose. And, yeah, I feel like it's changing is definitely I mean, certainly the people that I follow, there's this idea that we, the old self care Sundays, that the hashtag still gets around, but it's a night, you can be mindful of that any time of the day. And like you said, if you feel like you need a nap, because that's going to make you more productive later, then do it, you know? And that comes down to judgment to be that, you know, how are you sleeping in the middle of the day? You know, aren't you supposed to be doing something, you know, all those little voices from a naive, maybe capitalist or a patriarchal sort of society come into our head and say, Yeah, what do you do in that for? Yeah, and not recognizing that creativity doesn't like to be on 24/7. And you've actually probably only got about four hours max, of that really intense work, new work, creative work in you. And if you do any more, in a day of that kind of work, you're probably going to be in creative debt the next day, so mixing it up with admin, housework, whatever, without breaking concentration, but just knowing your limits, learning to feel where you're at, is this the time to go with the flow, this is the time to say, Okay, that's enough. And also, brain science is fabulous in this recognizing there are different ways our brain works different aspects of our brain for different tasks. And when we stop, and go away and do something different, like take a walk, take a shower, take a nap, chop vegetables, back in your floor, your brain flips into this different zone. And when it's in that zone, it's almost like neutral. Yeah, what it does is it starts making connections between all of these completely different areas in your brain, ideas, thoughts, memories, experiences, and it starts making solutions that are completely unique. Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? Like I find, it's almost like I think did Einstein call it the theta state or the theta state? It's something to do with when your brains at rest. And it doesn't have to be actual meditation doesn't have to be laying down meditating. But it's like you're doing a repetitive or, I don't wanna say mindless because, but you're basically chopping vegetables when you said that. It's like you're doing a repetitive thing and your body goes into like muscle memory, and it just does it. Yeah. And then that gives your mind the time to, like you said, makes the connection and you're not conscious of it. It's not a thing that you're thinking, necessarily, but like the shower, going in the shower and walking are the two biggest times I get ideas. It's like you're just open and stuff just comes in and it's just amazing. I quickly get out of the shower and just record things on my phone or exactly I need a whiteboard in the shower. But it's true, isn't it like you need you need the ebbs and flows and your body has to have time and your mind has to have time to process things and then get you ready for the next load of whatever you're doing. And as a mom, if you can embrace that, then that it just works, doesn't it because we spend a heck of a lot of time, and vegetables and cleaning things and driving and. And we need to exercise you know, just to keep ourselves together. And walking is such a great way to do that. Those things can be part of our life. And when we realize I'm not beating myself up while I'm doing those things about all the things I haven't done yet. I'm relaxing and recognizing this is a really powerful part of the rhythm. And if I'm open, I'm excited to see what floats into my head. Potentially while I'm chopping broccoli. Yeah, yeah, I love that. That is so awesome. So I, I do a lot of yoga. And it's that the best stuff is like you do all your asanas and do all the movement, do some breathing. And then you have a nice meditation and you have a heavy Shavasana. And it's like, okay, what can you give me now like, you know, you're so open, and you're so relaxed, and your body's in that, that state, and then you can just you just get the best ideas, but I do anyway, I just love it. I'm not a yoga practitioner at all. But I do like silent meditation before the just what I should say, I don't necessarily love the doing of it. But I love the effect of it and learning that just even 10 minutes of silence just ignoring the chatter that my mind comes up with. Actively just letting it go that Yeah, yeah, it does put you in an amazing place to think clearly and be more energized, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. I'd always get up from my shavasana and my yoga teacher, she'd be like, Okay, what if he got first this time, like, because it was become this joke that I just be like, Oh, guess what, I just thought of what some I just came up with like, it was just, yeah, I'll just. If there are people in your audience who are wanting to learn to draw paint, dive into that part of their creativity, then come Come find me, the confident artists Facebook group, there's a lot of people in there who are enjoying their creativity together at all different levels. And I have a blog on my website that's got some really helpful tools and tips for enjoying your creativity, learning to draw and paint. And if you already painting and drawing and you're thinking, Can I do this? Could I really make money doing something I love? How do I even start selling art, then head to my website, Fiona valentine.com, I've got a free guide on how to start selling your art that talks about how to get clarity, and how this works, how to think about your pricing. And there's a lot of other resources there on my website, you can find out about the coaching program, the profitable artist method. And if you've got questions, just let me know, there's a button where you can hop on a free call, and we can talk about your creative journey and how you can get some support are fantastic. Yep. So I was gonna ask you, what's the best way to go ahead and get in touch but you've just answered that for me beautifully. Thank you. And also on your website, you've got some information on Oh, yes, innovation workshop. You'll see that in the tabs on my website, there's a tab for business school that talks about the profitable artists method. And it's another tab that says the art of innovation workshop. And that's where companies or you know, collection of people who want to get together and do a two hour online zoom workshop to learn how to draw so that you can boost your creative potential. And you can use it like an exercise taking your brain to the gym. So yeah, you'll find all that information there too. Thank you so much for coming on today. I've really enjoyed talking with you is raised some points that I've sort of lost along the way somewhere, you know, especially that that you know, keeping in touch with your emotions and your cycle and that kind of stuff. So yeah, really valuable to have you here and thank you so much for giving me your time today. Thank you so fun to talk with you and your music is beautiful, Allison. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Oh, do you have to keep an ear out for the next year when which will hopefully be the end of the it's been a slow process, but I don't mind that. It just happens when it happens and amongst everybody else. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Beth Stephen Australian singer + songwriter S2 Ep74 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts I am very excited to welcome to the podcast today Beth Stephen, a singer, songwriter and mother of 2 from Melbourne, Victoria, and one half of the Teeny Tiny Stevies. Beth grew up in a very musical family, her parents were working musicians and she has fond memories of seeing her parents all dressed up ready to go to a gig and listening to her parents band rehearse. In her teenage years Beth and her sister Byll decided to start their own indie-folk group, The Little Stevies and they performed on the folk festival circuit in Victoria playing their own songs. (The girls actually still release music as The Little Stevies) In 2015, inspired by the need to teach Byll’s three-year-old about the challenges of toilet training, the sisters started playing around writing children’s songs. What began as a side-hobby became so fun and effective that they decided on a complete change of direction and The Teeny Tiny Stevies were born. Before they knew it, their debut album ‘Useful Songs for Little People’ had become a word-of-mouth sensation around Australia. They’ve since released 4 albums through ABC Music, won both the ARIA Award and AIR Award for ‘Best Children’s Album’ in 2020, been commissioned to write music for Sesame Street’s online channel in the US, and signed a book deal with HarperCollins. Their first book, released in December 2021, was nominated for the 2022 ABIA Best Children’s Book Award. They’ve also licensed 18 animated music videos to ABC KIDS TV, which have been played over 21 million times on the ABC KIDS iView app. And at the time of recording this, the girls are up for another ARIA Award for their album How to Be Creative, the winners announced this week. Beth website Podcast - instagram / website Tiny Tiny Stevie's music appears in today's episode with permission via my APRA AMCOS Online Mini Licence Agreement When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for tuning in. It really is such a pleasure to have you. today. I'm very excited to welcome to the podcast bet Stephen. She's a singer songwriter, and mother of two from Melbourne, Victoria, and one half of the teeny tiny Stevie's Beth grew up in a very musical family. Her parents were working musicians and she has fond memories of seeing her parents all dressed up ready to go to gigs and listen to her parents bands rehearse. In her teenage years, Beth and her sister veal, decided to start their own indie folk group, the little Stevie's and they performed on the folk festival circuit in Victoria, playing their own songs. The girls actually still released music as the little steamies in 2015, inspired by the need to teach Bill's three year old about the challenges of toilet training, the sisters started playing around writing children's songs. What began as a side hobby became so much fun and effective that they decided on a complete change of direction and the teeny tiny Stevie's were born. Before they knew it, their debut album, useful songs for little people had become a word of mouth sensation around Australia. They've since released four albums through ABC music won both the ARIA Award and the air award for best children's album in 2020. They've been commissioned to write music for Sesame Street's online channel in the US and signed a book deal with HarperCollins. Their first book released in December 2021 was nominated for the 2022 Abia Best Children's Book Award. They've also licensed 18 animated music videos to ABC Kids TV, which have been played over 21 million times on the ABC Kids IP app. And at the time of this recording, the girls are up for another ARIA award for their album how to be creative in the 2022 areas. The winners will be announced this week. The teeny tiny Stevie's music appears today with permission by my APRA m cos online mini licensing agreement. Thank you so much for listening. I really hope you enjoyed today's chat. When it's time to end everything is I lay down my head say good night. Thanks so much for coming on today, Beth. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome me and to meet you as well. Alison, it's an absolute delight to be here. Thank you. You are a little bit of a famous person, you and your sister. Are we are we famous, you're famous. I don't know that. I did just do like a heap of shows at the Opera House. We did. And my goodness, have we been telling everybody because it's not every day that you get to perform at such such an amazing venue. And so look, we may never be able to do it again. But hopefully we do. So I think I'm starting to go through life with that sort of mind frame which which I'm quite enjoying it just going enjoy this as it may be the last time which has been actually really great to just really lean into enjoying things as much as you can. Yeah, that's thing isn't it? Because sometimes we can take things for granted in the moment. It's just happening. But yeah, if you can sort of stop and go actually, yes, I'm going to experience this fully and and there's nothing wrong with telling people to because you can be really proud of yourself you know to sing at the Opera House is a pretty big achievement. So yeah, I quite enjoyed the the secret of skates. You know, bringing the ring what was it the physio Are you because I've just done some shows of the opera house? Yes. And I should ask you that, you know, credit to my sister bill, my big sister bill. She is quite the comedic talent. And look, she she entertains me as much as she entertains. Everybody else who follows follows us on on the socials. You get the feeling she quite enjoys doing that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think it could be a throwback to a few drama. Training that she did. I remember going to hear VCA drama, final performance, and it was quite quite entertaining and amusing outside the UK. So using skills in different parts of life. So as good. So tell our listeners, what you are and who you don't what, sorry, what you do. You do. That is it. You ever said introduction to to yourself and what you are passionate about with your music? Well, as you said, I am a musician and songwriter. And I work with my sister, Bill Stevens Avila. And we are the teeny tiny Stevie's and we started this project maybe six or seven years ago, after we had been playing music together as the little Stevie's since we were teenagers. And we sort of got to the point where Bill was starting to have kids herself. And we just sort of got to the point where we had to start asking ourselves some, you know, difficult, challenging questions, a lot centered around how we're going to keep doing this, if we want to, you know, with the money that we're making at the time, which essentially wasn't really enough. And so the way that life was changing, we sort of had to ask ourselves, those questions of how we were going to do it, what should we do going forward, we still want to keep doing music. And that's when we decided that we wanted to do a bit of a pivot, you know, reinvent ourselves a bit. As you have to do all the time, going through life, when you sort of you find yourself getting stuck a bit, and you sort of have to think about things differently. And that's when we started seeing tiny Stevie's. And we thought, at the time, actually, we were thinking about potentially writing some comedy music, which I feel ridiculous even saying that sentence, because I'm not, not the naturally funny one. But I sort of thought, you know, maybe I could be the straight person, you know, again, side by side with Bill and I should be the funny man. And we did actually, you know, try and write some music like that. But then the other thing that we were exploring was trying to write some kid songs. And I sort of, say, Kids Songs in quotation marks, because I guess, the journey that the team science babies has been on, and what we have discovered about ourselves, and what we like to do, and our skill set is that it's not specifically for kids, it's for families. And we like to write about things that can be great conversation starters, within the household and within, you know, social settings and, and friendship circles. So yeah, and really, you know, over the last six or seven years, it's just gone from strength to strength, and it has definitely become the main thing now that we do, which is incredible. I never really thought that. I mean, I certainly hoped and dreamed that music would become the main thing that was has always been the dream. But, you know, for it to actually become that that's pretty special. So, you know, going back to trading each thing that we do, as you know, this could be the last time so we're definitely going to enjoy it. I think maybe those two things are connected a bit of just going off got to pinch ourselves. Sometimes we get to do all this amazing stuff. Yeah, it's fantastic. I love speaking to people who have have made their love into what they do every day. I think it's just wonderful. It's just, it's such a fulfilling life to have, like, I can't, like not speaking from experience with the music side of things, but the job that I have with children I absolutely adore. And I'm so lucky that I do it every day. And I sometimes think that I think God I get paid to do this, like, yeah, I would do it anyway. You know what I mean? Yeah, and that's the thing, isn't it? Fortunately, or unfortunately, you do it anyway. And we would do it anyway, at least, you know, if I think if you do have something that you're just driven by and so passionate about, you will you will fight for it and you will do it no matter what. in some capacity, you know, not always in the capacity that you would hope. Hope see, because obviously there are lots of things in life that can that impact that. But yeah, it's uh, yeah, fortunate later on unfortunately, forget on the day. Yeah, yeah in my mind in my head so your sister, how how many you guys twins? Or is there a bit of an age gap? Sorry, I'm not really sure. No, that's okay. Looking with Bill was listening she she'd love that comment that you just made? No, we're not twins. But you are probably the third person that's asked that question this week. Oh, I think is a huge four years older than I but she just doesn't seem to age. So somehow she managed to get that really fantastic, Jane. Yeah, that's actually I can, I can appreciate what you're saying. Because my sister and I, I'm two and a half years older, but for years, you know, and even now, sometimes people will get us confused because they're speaking voices and our singing voices are almost identical. And I used to trick people on the phone when we were younger. That who they're talking to, and my sister, the she used to work in our family, plant nursery, and people would see me down the street and ask me questions about their Protoss drums or their whatever's and I just, I don't like to embarrass people like I wouldn't, I wouldn't say I'm not Emma, I just sort of play along. Oh, gosh, oh, it was because I just I felt I wouldn't do it now. But I felt really bad for the person. And I'll pop into the nursery, and I'll help you in. And then you find yourself into doping. You're like, Oh, yeah. And I don't want to have to be like, Emma, there's a person gonna come in and think that they've already spoken to you. So get ready, you know? Yeah. I mean, did you girls ever do stuff like that? Like, cheeky things? Do you know what I actually don't think we did? I don't have any memories of it. Which, that sounds very boring. I know. Now you sound like fun. Very fun. So you girls have always sang together? Is this been a thing that's happened right from the present? As you know, for as long as you can remember? Absolutely. Yeah. So our parents were musicians, full time musicians for a good period of time in their working life. So certainly, as a little kids, you know, we as young kids, we saw Mom and Dad, you know, going off to work at night, they would pick up, you know, they'd get all dressed up in their stage view, and then pack their know their bags, and the babysitter would come around, and we, you know, go to bed just after they left. And yeah, that was just lots of strong memories of that. And then lots of big memories of the band coming over to rehearse in the garage. And we would either be, you know, in there listening with them observing everything, I don't know, rolling around on the floor, probably, or in the main house, you know, sort of listening through the baby monitor type scenario. So yeah, I've got really fond memories of all that. So you know, as a household music was always encouraged. Mum and Dad have always been extremely enthusiastic about us taking an interest in it. And I think you know, now that I've got kids in my own, I think probably when we reached those teenage years, when we started to show interest separate from Mum and Dad, and we started to explore things together a bit more. And we kind of discovered each other in our teenage years. Though, I can imagine that they were wrapped, you know, that we just had something to focus that energy into, because I guess, you know, sometimes teenagers can be a bit. You know, you can find yourself a bit lost and distracted. And so I think to have that, yeah, had to have that focus was probably a great thing. You know, maybe they probably weren't so stoked when it became obvious that we were really going to pursue it seriously. In terms of, you know, the money of them probably thinking to themselves, Oh, I don't I don't know if it's the most secure. Most secure Korea, but you know, as parents, it's yeah, it's a hard thing to balance all those feelings, I imagine. Yeah, that's the thing is a lot. I'm going through that with my son at the moment. He's thinking about what he wants to do. And I keep saying choose something that you love. Just pick something you really love. And my husband's a financial planner, and he's going Yeah, but make sure you know, you got enough money. I know it's, it's, yeah, I imagined their hard conversations to have. Yeah, yeah. So did you start learning instruments like formally or do you just pick things up from your parents? I had that sort Okay, both we do Yeah, we both did, you know, formal training on instruments through school, I think that was a bit of a expectation that mum and dad had. But then we also did it just ourselves, you know, at home, pick up picking up the guitars and stuff like that, and started to write songs. But really, you know, learning the guitar, and instruments like that was really just a vessel to be able to write songs and start writing songs. And I think at some stage, Mom said to me, she goes up to both of us, but she said, You know, one of the best things that you can do is to just learn an instrument that you can accompany yourself with. So you're not reliant on anybody else. To be able to write and perform your own songs, if that's what you want to do. And that was really great advice. And I'd probably give that year on to anyone else. Because it's great if you can just be self reliant, and then you can collaborate with others. But you know, if there aren't other people to collaborate with, and you can't rely on other people, you can still do the thing that you love. And you can still do it really well. And you don't have to be a superstar on your instrument. You just, it's just handy to be able to, you know, play a few chords. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? And then yeah, as a tool for songwriting, that you've actually got something you can not get you, your chords on, or, you know, he trains and things. Yeah. So can I ask with your parents, with a songwriters, as well, what sort of band did they have? They were, so they did their own original stuff. And they also did a bunch of covers. So I think for them, it was a mixture of the cover work, you know, really paid the bills. And then they also did their original stuff, and sort of kind of integrated the two a lot of the time, and also did separate things within music. So yeah, and when they were younger, before we were on the scene, as kids, they had their separate original groups when they you know, in their early 20s. And they did lots of touring, and you know, had their their own success doing that. And then when they got together as a couple started the new thing. And, and they continue doing that while Bill was a young kid, and then for a little bit when I came along, but I think certainly me as the second child, I sort of burst the dream a little bit, and they got some more reliable jobs, or better paid jobs. If everyone was gentle all the time, everyone would feel so good. I'm jumping into this early in the conversation, but have you found that you've sort of that role modeling of how to balance the two has been useful for you with your own children? Oh, definitely. But I would probably say, only because, you know, I've, I was a kid when my parents were doing this themselves. So there's not really I can't really have a great understanding or, or perspective on that, I guess, now, but what I do have, and what I've had been so lucky to have is Bill, who has who went through it all before me, you know, at least sort of six or seven years before me and because we spend so much time together, and we also have a business together, and we work together in so many different capacities. I've seen that very, very closely what she's gone through. And that's just been hugely beneficial for me. I mean, it's still it's not like having your own kids and going through that yourself. By any means. Yeah, you'll, you'll sort of never really understand that to that level until you're doing it yourself. Because you're always going to have a different experience for someone else. But yeah, to be able to see all those peaks and Trump's very closely was very helpful. I think it made me go in with very low expectations, to be honest. And I think that was quite handy. Yeah, that's true, isn't it? Because I think that's the thing, like, unless you see it, you can have all these wild ideas, like I'm gonna wear the baby while I'm, you know, recording or you know, all these sort of things, and then you just happen to have it happen to you and you go on, that's never gonna work like so at least you sort of had this rough idea of what was perhaps achievable and, and what wasn't. Definitely, and the stress, you know, the stress of, you know, if you're doing here with another person, and you know, there's a partnership or relationship involved, like, what a huge thing. What a huge stress to put on a relationship like that's, it's enormous and it's and it's and it's ongoingly stressful, it's also can be great and beautiful and all of those things, but it's a constant negotiation and compromise and, and just because you talk about one thing once doesn't mean that it's going to remain that way for In the next 20 years, and, you know, you've got to nurture and meet everyone's needs involved is really tricky. Obviously, we all know that. So yeah. 22nd We're in the summer holiday, people rush to get this stuff done. So they can stop and take a break Christmas movies on the TV, Sunday's up close to the tree. So back to you girls in as the little Stevie. So what sort of how old? were you when you first started sort of that project? And what sort of things were you doing with that? So we started when I was 15. And I think Bill had just finished high school. And we, we basically just started applying for folk festivals around Victoria. And we were really lucky to get a couple of opportunities, doing those. And because we'd already started writing some songs, we really just, yeah, we started on the folk festival circuit for those years after that, and we just kind of learnt on the job, you know, which can be can be difficult when you're learning everything in front of an audience. And at that age to like you, I mean, not 15 Is not that old to be getting out there. And, you know, perhaps in a more adult sort of world as well. Yeah, look, it's um, you know, there's, there's so many different aspects to them, is it? I mean, it's, it's just, it's such a steep learning curve, when you are, how can I put this, we've never sort of been a group, you know, or sort of done music where we've just done it at home, in the privacy of our own space for years, and years and years. Before we go and perform it, or share it in front of an audience or with people, it's always been our rally song. Okay, well, I guess we better go and, you know, do something with it, you know, or not, and perform it. And that's, and that's when some of the embarrassing moments can happen when you're literally, you know, you're learning in front of an audience and in front of people. But gosh, you do some quick learning. And, yeah, I think sometimes if you if you spend too much time, just creating at home and sort of not sharing it, and you know, and it's hard to share it because you got to means you got to be vulnerable. And you know, you're putting yourself up for criticism. Yeah, sometimes, then you can sort of risk just never putting anything out and never showing anyone anything, and never been happy with anything as well. And then all of a sudden, so much time can pass. Anyway, so does that mean then you feel really comfortable on stage? Because, you know, literally anything could happen, anything could go wrong. And you're okay with that? Oh, no, I wouldn't say I'm okay with that. Okay. No, I like I know, I still get nervous all the time. And we still get nervous all the time. If, yeah, if there was a there was a video sort of videoing us when we get off stage every time Oh, my goodness, it would be just so embarrassing. Witnessing the conversations that we have, like, it's you know, I'll say isn't it's all literally let's just jump into just like talking about all the things that we you know, all the things we did wrong and all the mistakes that we made and oh, oh, what do you think they thought when we said this or did that and It'd be terrible if if, if people actually knew that, you know, the critique that we put ourselves through after we got off stage. But look I just mentioned i i just love performing. I love it so much. And Bill does too. So yeah, we just gotta get out there and do it. Hmm. So what aspects of performing Do you love the most when you say you really love it? What what do you look forward to? For a gig? Well, I love singing like I love the action of seeing the physical action of singing and it's you probably feel the same way or just it just makes you feel so joyous you know? It's a it really there's I don't know it's like exercising it just makes you feel incredible as endorphins go Yeah, you know mentally and physically so I think just that alone, I love the feeling that I get whilst doing it and after but I also love I love this is going to probably sound like I'm sort of I love the sort of validation or or positive affirmation and look, I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy that. I think everyone enjoys you know, getting positive feedback and but you know, we've been so If you go and someone comes up after a show or emails us and says, I've connected, or this, these lyrics that you wrote, have made me feel like this, or this has been my life experience, you have just summed that up so beautifully. You know, and they said something deeply personal about themselves, because they heard something that you've written like that is beyond special. And, you know, that's just, yeah, that makes you keep going. Because you're just like, wow, I don't I'm not sure. I think anything gets much better than this. Yeah, that is pretty awesome, isn't it? It's sort of I liken it to, it will never happen to me on this scale. But you know, when you're at the concerts and the famous people, they hold out the mic, and everyone knows the words, it's like that, yeah. Oh, you get it, you get me like, yeah, resonating with something that I'm putting out there. And that that is hugely validating? It's sort of, I mean, I know, we don't necessarily do our art for that reason. But it's a lovely, sort of side thing of that, that, that you're connecting with people, you know, and if you can't, yeah, you can reach somebody who might get so much out of what you're sharing like that, that example you gave. And it's so special, it is an awesome feeling. It is awesome. And, and we all know what it's like to have another person write a song. And for us to feel like there's just something up for us, and how special that is to be on the other side of things. Yeah, and there's so many people that I wish that I could say that to, you know, if I saw them in a physical sense that I just love to say, how much of an impact they've had on me. Which Yeah, now when I'm saying that loud, I should just do that more often. Through the wonders of social media, we actually have access to people we for I don't know, I used to write fan mail and post it off into the nether and you know, oh, that's so good. You remember the old Smash Hits magazine? Back? Yes. It was like, you know, they'd have their their fan mail address. And I'm swear, no one ever got those letters. But now you can literally just message someone and say, You're awesome. Yeah, it's pretty great, isn't it? Yeah. I really love that. This is totally off topic. But the other day, you know, Constantino, that magician? He's like, the grand illusion. Oh, yes. Yeah, he came to me at Gambia. And that was a big deal. Because we're just, you know, a little country town in the middle of Adelaide. And afterwards, because, you know, when you're, when you're in the know, you know, where the stage door is, and, you know, roughly how long people take to come out. So, my little, my little seven year old, he's a massive fan. He's got his books, you know, he's into him. And I said, Come on, let's wait till he comes out. And he's like, Oh, really, I said yet. It'll only be like half an hour. And it was only us and one other group of people were there. And he came out. And I said to him, I said, Because and Taylor said, what you're doing, you know, he writes books for kids with reading difficulties or ADHD dyslexia. Yeah, he went through that as a kid. And I said to him, thank you so much for what you're doing for the kids. Yeah. And he was so chuffed that did be had his book. You know, I think that meant that meant so much to him. You know, everyone loves his show, you know, he knows that everyone thinks he's amazing, but I think that connection with a child who was really into his stuff, and I made sure I told him because I'm like, This is great, like, yeah. Oh, that's great. I'm sure he appreciated that. And I can I can get a bit fangirl sometimes. And you will. It's hard to find the words though, isn't it? It is literally I don't know one day I met Kate soprano because my sister and I were this is really random store I don't know why I'm coming out with this. But we were at this corporate gig corporate event in on the Gold Coast for for plant nursery. And she just happened to be the the entertainment and so she was she called for people to come up sage singer backing track they didn't have the mics turned on so we were like off for God's sakes then we can sing we can sing proper backing but you know they had the microphone. And when I when I walked off I all I could say was I love you so much. It was just so embarrassed. I just love you so much and she's probably thinking God Who are these drunk women up on stage but anyway, I'm digressing now. These I don't go in my pants when I saw this this time you saying six or seven years ago you guys decided to do you change the direction And I'm really intrigued to know how you were received initially. And I don't want to I'm not comparing you to the wiggles at all, because you're completely different. The depth and the thought that goes into what you write and what you share is phenomenal. And so I'm just wondering, like, how, how it went down, as he would just ask that question, I was thinking to myself, Oh, my gosh, I wish I can maybe I recall. Sounds like a long time ago now. But look, I feel I feel as though probably for us, during the whole time that we've been doing music stuff. Sometimes, and often we have you know, we've we've written something, or we've taken a sort of decided that we take these kind of an approach. Yeah, we're even thinking to ourselves, Well, I'm not sure how this is gonna be received. But it feels right, it feels like the right thing to do. And she feels like the right thing to do for us. I think when we started, we definitely knew what we didn't want to do. And we had a pretty clear vision of what we did want to do what we didn't want to do. And we want to keep performing music alive, in pretty much the same capacity of what we're doing with the little Stevie's, which is really just a live band. Wearing what we would normally wear on stage, playing our instruments. But yeah, we weren't interested in doing anything else other than that. And yeah, there was there was probably a lot of questions around though I don't know, if that's going to necessarily been engaging enough. Or so there was a bit of, there was definitely some trial and error for sure. I think one of the first gigs that we did, as a team timings was at a festival, it was a festival slot. And, you know, we kind of like even scripted a bit of dialogue in between the songs, and, and sort of tried to, like, you know, order the songs to tell a bit of a story. And after we came on stage, that time we were, it was very obvious. We're just like, oh, no, this is not, this is not what we want to do. But this didn't work. And it was, unfortunately, you have to live through some things like that, to really realize what you don't want to do, and what's not going to work. So there was a bit of that in the first instance. And also, when the first few songs that we wrote, you know, having really young kids to try them on, as well was extremely valuable. You know, Bill's eldest child at the time was three, and we started with a toilet training song. And the rainbow song, they were one of the two of the first songs that we wrote. And they'll really taken very well and received very well by him. So, so then that gives you confidence to keep going. So yeah, having that immediate feedback from kids was really valuable. And it just sort of developed from there to be honest. Green roughly being beans, celery and apples, spinach, peas and lettuce, I. I am on my way. I mean, you've written to my favorite ones that the I'm the boss of mind, body, that's one that really gets stuck in my head. I really like that one. And you've written songs by song about COVID about staying home? Like do you basically look at what's happening? And what's important to you, and maybe look at your kids and see what's happening with them. And that's where your inspiration comes from? Yeah, has in the past the first three albums that we did useful, helpful, thoughtful songs, or little people, they were pretty much mostly, the ideas are sort of crowd sourced. So I mean, the first, the first, like the first step, and we came up with those things ourselves. And then the second two, we put a call out and we said to parents and educators and carers what, what what would be helpful to have songs written about, and they gave us lots of ideas, and people were really, really engaged with that, which was awesome. And lots of the same things started getting mentioned. So the ones that were repeatedly mentioned, were like, well, obviously, there's a huge need, and desire for a song about this. So then we just give it our best go at writing about that particular theme and, and I should sort of emphasize the fact that it's, yeah, it's the the lyrical process is a long process. And all the lyrics are very sort of, you know, scrutinized by by ourselves and so there's Yeah, it's not a it's not a quick job, the lyrics because you know, We also know that your lyrics are incredibly powerful and, and kids, in particular, listen to things on repeat. And again and again and again and again. You know, I'm an adult that listens to things on repeat to I got, I bought everyone around me with just watching their same movies and the same TV show that I, you know, I think for some people that gives a lot of comfort to, you know, repeatedly listen and watch and hear things. So, yeah, we're just we're just very much very aware of that. So we want to make sure that we put a lot of thought into them. Hmm, that's a really good point. Speaking of things being on repeat, I've had Hamilton the Hamilton musical only my car for about three years now. The other day, we finally saw the actual stage show. So that was nice. So now we've moved on to something else. But yeah, you had your flight? Yes, I've had the fix now. And it's funny because now I've seen the stage show that Australian actors do the nuances and the intervene to nation a slightly different and so now when I listened to the state the the I called Broadway, I'm like, Oh, that's not how it went. Jason era didn't do it like that. You know, everything. Yeah, the older days out. But I do that, too. I get fixated on things. Or the Beatles. I'm back on the Beatles now. Listen to this same album, but it never gets old. You just know it doesn't. They will never get out. Ever. Thank goodness. One male body, male body? I am. So with you guys with your singing with your harmonies and stuff, have you always just naturally like, I guess I'm comparing it to my sister and I like our voices is she's slightly lower than me and I go slightly higher, but in that general with both our toes, but I can go slightly up a bit. And so I've always just taken the higher harmony. Do you guys have like a? What's the word, a system or a method that works for you? I mean, I think when we were kids bill would always take the harmony just because she was always much better than me. I've been able to pitch in arrange harmonies, she's got a real real knack for it. But yeah, giving myself a bit of credit to as I've become an adult and also grown and developed, I think. Yeah, I think I think we're both pretty good at doing that now and and we both just, you know, take it into singing lead singing harmony. And it's really fun. Keeps it really interesting, huh? Do you guys have like, again, I'm comparing to myself like a sort of an invisible, like connection of communication when you're on stage, like, someone might move their eyebrow a little bit or look a certain way. And the other person goes, Oh, crap, that bit, you know, like you have this this way of communicating with each other without anyone really knowing. Yeah, I think so. Although, although, I've often told that I think that I'm smiling to my bandmates interview on stage. And then they go on stage saying that you're just looking at us like this the whole time. Like I've done something wrong. No, I was just smiling at you like I'm really having fun. So, so there is communication there. I'm not sure if we're really receiving the correct communication, but the other ones trying to communicate all the time. But we think we're communicating. But look, in terms of singing the actual, you know, the actual singing that we Yeah, we're, because we've been doing it for so long together. I think we're pretty good at predicting what the other one is going to do. And to be able to match each other and shadow each other and that type of thing. Yeah, yeah, I couldn't relate to that. It's like, sometimes when we've been performing like, we both start singing the tune or something. And for Amelie say it'll like literally a millisecond. And then it'll be like, Oh, she is in the hammock, like, and it's like, watching would ever get that we've just stuffed up. Yeah, but yeah, exactly. So quickly. And so intuitively. It's so much fun. I just like we did a wedding just the other week. And we hadn't been together for so long because of COVID. And just, I really pulled back from gigs, but we did this wedding and we're just sitting there. Obviously, it's so fun. You know, we've forgotten so lovely. And it was so great. Yeah, it was so lovely. It was a great was great fun. They had the the photo booth right next to us though, so it was like laughing and I'm like him as always on my left. I've got to have her in my left ear. I don't know why it's just a really, it's a quick that I have so I've tried to shut out this site and listen to her on so I'm sure why that's so nice that you said those things out loud. And you acknowledge the fact that it was really fun. Because it is. And I feel like I'm really guilty of not doing that enough. And I'm trying to do that a bit more. Over just yeah, really acknowledge and verbalize when something's really fun when you're really enjoying doing something with another person, so they know so they know that you're really enjoying this time that you're spending together. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. But that doesn't make it easy. Nothing says everything. starts again. So back on to your your children. How many kids do you have? So we've got two kids. We've got a four year old and a nine month old. Oh, little tracker. Yeah. So yes. Again, back to you. Your stories on Instagram. How hard is it really traveling with the kids? Like, there was a funny, funny, one of like, pushing the pram and there's things hanging off every single like, on the frame? And, you know, that is that literally the realities of going on tour with the kids? Oh, yeah, absolutely. And look, we, I wouldn't say that we it's it for our collective kids to come away with us. Because as we can all hopefully agree, it's so hard to work and parent at the same time. And when you're trying to do both at the same time, inevitably, something something somewhere, you don't do it as good a job as you could, if you're not doing the two at the same time. So, so yeah, it's this year, my baby has come away with this a lot, because she's been so young, hopefully into the future. That won't necessarily be their regular thing. But again, you know, each each, every few months, you know, we sort of need to look at things again. And say and sort of went through all the different commitments that have come up. Because, you know, all the touring commitments that we've had this year has been a lot more intense than previous years. So and our circumstances have changed again, you know, family wise. So yeah, it's just a constant juggle and a constant. Yeah, just renegotiation? Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because the children are always growing? Stages? Yeah, the needs are changing and what they what they're capable of, or what you're capable of doing with their mare. And, you know, yeah, it's always been, like constant reassessment. Yeah. Yeah. What I want to ask you about are not just on that for a change tab. So where have you Where have you been this year? So far? What what's you've been your sort of, I don't want to say your schedule, your tour schedule. You've been we have some places you've Oh, my gosh, we've been everywhere. We have been. We've been to most states this year already. And we're going and we're just continuing to do more over the next six, six to 12 months. So we've been all around New South Wales and Northern Territory went there for the first time this year, which was amazing. All around Victoria, South Australia. We're going all around Queensland, over January this year. So yeah, just just everywhere, and look, the nature of our music, because it's for kids and families. It's mostly weekend and school holiday work, where we do most of our touring. And look, because you know, my partner and I do very different things. So he has a weekday job, pretty standard office hours, and then I'm doing weekends and school holidays. That does work quite well. And I don't know, I just don't know how people who are working in the same industry. They manage exam time. Yeah. I mean, there's challenges to everybody. But that because I'm not living that. That experience. To me, that just seems huge. If you're competing for the same time. Yeah. Yeah, literally the same time to try and work. Yes, yeah. There'll be so many conflicts in schedules. And it's like, yeah, someone would have to have to sort of let things go, I guess at different times. It would be very challenging. Yeah, exactly. I have tripped up to some space. But human beings names they shall always leave to them. You're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I was singing away from my dreams with your songwriting process? Like, do you just pick up ideas here, there and everywhere? And then come together with your sister and just bang it out? Or do you often like come to each other with, like, with a half done song, like, how do you sort of work in that way, it's a bit of everything, we often, because we're now living in different places, the, we don't often sit in a room together, and just create something from scratch, it'll be one of us coming up with an idea, you know, maybe a nearly finished one, or maybe just the beginnings of something, and then we just send it to the other person, the other person has their time with it, I send it back. And then when it's goes back and forth a few times, and then when it's, you know, pretty much in its fully formed song, or, you know, or book or whatever the thing is, then we'll get together and we'll just knock out the last little bit and just rehearse it up. So suppose in a state that we can perform it or you know, get the Voice Memo recording out and just do a acoustic recording on our phone. Imagine if we lost our phones. And imagine if we lost all the voice memos thinkable. It is unthinkable. And it's also think of all because it's like, how I don't it's like I barely know how to backup my computer, or what's on my phone onto my computer. So just Just don't be lost. Oh, what a disaster that would be. Oh, man, I was talking to a I had on my podcast the other day. It's not out yet. It will be seen. I recorded an episode. That's what I was meant to say, with as a songwriter. And we were joking about how you could be anywhere doing anything, and you'll get an idea. And until you've written that down or recorded that idea, you just cannot relax, like you're just in this state of, I'm going to forget it. I quickly have to do something with this. And you'd like she was joking. She's got all these little voice recordings if you're going in and new stuff. And then you listen to it later. And you've got to try and make sense of what your idea. Oh, I know. And to anyone else. Oh my gosh, it would be so embarrassing for someone else to just start listening to them all, online. All of mine start with this a standard tuning Capo one, five. This is what tuning Capo on blah. And it's just so it's just so boring to listen to. Do you ever wake up in the morning and have something in your head? No, no, that's never happened to me. A lot of people but no, not to me. I actually I love talking to musicians because I love it. I love it. Everybody has these, you know, all the different ways that they write or the different ways they get used. I just find it so fascinating. It's just fun. All right, well, I'll stop indulging myself. Yeah. That's great. I love I love hearing all of this, all of this stuff that you do yourself, too. It's so very interesting. It's so much fun. Love it, it is fun. And you know, on that, it's like when it stops being fun, then maybe that's, you know, that's usually the time that you got to change something, isn't it? Or maybe time to stop doing something and then start something else. Yeah, because, yeah, you definitely want there always to be an aspect of fun for that, and that's the thing, like when I said to my son, you know, you've got to you've got to do this every day. You don't want to literally wake up every morning and just go Oh god this again, you know, you want to be energized by what you do. And and if you're passionate about something, you know, if it's your your music or whatever you're doing that you're you're sharing that with people you know, I sort of feel like you've got this thing in you that you've managed to make into something and then sharing it with people is just the icing on the cake you know like she can wait to me she can't lie to me. I know some families back on to you being a mom. I like to talk to moms about the concept of their identity. So You know, you've always been a musician, singer songwriter doing your thing. When you became a mum? Did you? Did you really want to hold on to that part of your life? Did you feel like that was important? You weren't going to just go? Now my mom not going to do anything else? I'm just going to be mom. I mean, totally, I think, I think whether we care to admit it or not, we're all changed immensely when you have accused because your whole world changes. And that maybe I shouldn't assume that everyone's the same. But But yeah, for me, absolutely. I mean, your whole identity sort of changes. I mean, you know, in the first instance, all of a sudden, you go from being this independent person, who really, you know, if you've got a partner, and you know, you are thinking about him, to a degree and kind of do I mean, but you're still kind of two individuals. You know, doing life together, but there's still so much of that, that is separate and individual and independent from each other. But then when kids come on the scene, like, yeah, their needs, then it have to come first. And so, and that can be really hard to swallow. In terms of, you know, I really, there are still things that we all want to do. So fulfill us and to fulfill our own needs. And just sometimes, yeah, and often, you just can't do that. So yeah, definitely. And also just, you know, all the sort of the biggest sort of society, the society, sorry, societal things, you know, of becoming a mom and, and some things to do with gender as well, all of this stuff changes, you know, sometimes, and you can often work out how you feel about it, or actually work out what's going on at the time, but it doesn't feel right. And it can take some time to sort of explore those things and work out where you are, and how it's affecting you and what it is what it actually is to be able to verbalize what the thing is. I'm not sure if any of that made sense. Gosh, it is. Yes. And that's where I was leading you to because I look, I've spoken to a few members on this show. I've got to be careful how I ask questions, because I assume that everybody feels sometimes feels the same way that I did. And I've spoken to some mums who have just gone. No, I just went, I'm going to be mum, that's great. And I just went, that wasn't me. Yeah. You know, and so I've got to be careful how I don't want to ask leading questions. But I did lead you into that, because I had a feeling you'd say that. Yeah, well, I mean, I, yeah, gosh, the idea of? No, I definitely, I'd say definitely the person, a type of person who likes to have a good balance of both. I'm just happy, I'm just a happier person, if I'm also doing unstuff. Otherwise, I just get too cranky. Allison, too cranky. And I don't I don't like listening to myself. I can totally relate to that. I think I'm just a happy presence for everyone. If and it's funny, like, you know, both my partner and I, we acknowledge that and and say those things out loud. And it really has to be like, Okay, we have to we have to let each other do these things that we want to need to do to various degrees so that when we're when we're coming back and interacting with the rest of the family, you know, we're out of the we're close to the best versions of ourselves. Absolutely otherwise said that. Otherwise, there's too much resentment. Hey, that can just simmer up very quickly. Yeah, that's the word that I can definitely relate to is that resentment is just Yeah, and I'm not saying that in a negative like, God, I feel like I've got to justify everything I say now. But you know, I love my children. I love being a mom. But I also love doing things that I love to do that don't involve my children, you know? Oh, definitely. And that's, there shouldn't be any shame in saying. No, exactly. And here's the thing, right? We feel we feel guilty saying anything like that. Of course we love our kids. Yeah, of course. We love them. I love mine. Immensely. When I'm not with them. I miss them. And then when I'm too often, they can drive me absolutely nuts. Yep. I mean, and then yeah, and then I feel guilty about that. And then it's just crazy. And then and then you can't fully enjoy the time when you're away from them. Because you have all these feelings too. And then, you know, and then yeah, you're missing them a little bit. You're like, What is wrong with me? is wrong. It is just this perpetual thing isn't it's like we cannot escape it. Whether we're with them or without them. There's some element of guilt that We feel it's just, ah, it's horrible. I know it's huge. And yeah, you start to then see your own parents in a different light to realize that, oh, they probably felt all of these things, too. Yeah. Maybe I should have been more kind to them. You get new appreciation? Yeah, maybe I should be less judgmental of my parents. It is it is an interesting science lesson. But it's an interesting experience to be an old to be older and have your own children and look back on your parents with so much compassion. You think my God, you know, that what? You know, I don't know. I think we're so hard on ourselves. And everyone's just doing the best that they can with what they've got at the time. And yeah, you know, give me a break. Absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Yeah, cuz Yeah, mom guilt is something that I do like to chat to all my moms about. And I have had two people in this last week was the 78th episode that went out to mums. Wow, that have said they don't know what it is. They had to google it. And I was like, Yes, this should be all of us. We should not even have this word, you know? Yeah. And I feel like, you know, a lot of the people I talk to sort of share the view that, that it's this, the it's the external judgment, and the external societal norms or expectations placed upon us and making us feel this way, you know, if we just mothered the way we wanted to, and didn't feel this pressure, we wouldn't feel guilty because we'd be doing what we wanted with you. No, no. No, external helps. It helps to move your arms does help. You know, you know me. Ah, yeah. And social media. I think it's just been, it's got a lot a lot to answer for when it comes to this judgment of each other and things like that. It's yeah, totally. I mean, yeah. I mean, there's so many great things and so many bad things, that social media, it's to have it, it's a hard, hard balance to get a feel. With social media. Yeah. Because most of the mums I speak to are on there for you know, their art sharing their work, or, you know, they're for business. So yeah, you sort of feel like you've got to be on there. But then it's interesting to the last few people I've spoken to have been really had some, you know, the great advice, which should be obvious, but sometimes when other people say things, you notice it more than if you thought it yourself, but you know, only following people that make you feel good. You constantly see someone come up and they they trigger something in you don't keep looking at them. I know. It's such a simple thing. But yeah, so simple and so obvious. But why do we Why do we find ourselves doing it? I don't know. Yeah, it's a funny, funny world. Imagination tell me they're under my bed when worries come in and like wave rushing up to my, my superpower. It's essential that you have your support network in whatever way that you need that support. I'm sure that support comes in different forms for each individual and each family and each household. But, yeah, I mean, personally, I certainly feel very appreciative. And I was I was thinking in the car the other day and thinking how I would say this, and answer this question. If it came up with going, I don't think I feel lucky. I feel nervous using the word lucky because I feel like the insinuation is that I've had nothing to do with it. You know, if I say I feel lucky to have a partner that I do, I feel very appreciative. Because we certainly, I think we're doing okay, and again, ebbs and flows, I think we're going doing all right, you know, so far of trying to let each other you know, flourish kind of professionally and sort of try and really strive for those things that we want to do outside of having kids and parenting, which is so important. I think if I felt like I was just battling, you know, against someone or really trying to fight for time, all the time, and vice versa. That's not conducive to being creative at all. So yeah, that's really important. And I think everyone needs to be on the same team to make it work. So this year, for example, you know, we've had a baby at the beginning of the year. Everyone has needed to be on board for for it to be successful. You know, so and that's, you know, partner, SR manager, you know, all the people who are involved in the team, to be on board to make that work and to be happy to make that work. And, and for that to be successful. So, yeah, that's, that was the thought that I had driving for hours yesterday in the car. Yeah. And I think it to being able to ask for what you want and make your needs clear that this is not going to work for me, or this is what I need to make myself comfortable here like not being afraid to speak, speak up, I suppose. Definitely. And yes, to be really clear about those expectations that you have of each other, and, and to have those high standards of each other. I think, you know, to have those high standards, and to have those, you know, a level of expectation, and also to communicate the expectations that you have of each other as well, because, gosh, if we, if we assume too much, we're generally wrong, or incorrect in our assumptions that we make. So we may as well just talk about it and clear it all out from the get go. So everyone's on the same page. Yeah, that's a really good point. Because I feel like, as much as you know, you, you're obviously, you know, we're attracted to our partners for a particular reason. That's great. We love them. But those people are still different to us. And I feel like, I know what I do is, you know, for example, in a situation, I'd do something this way, and I can't assume that my partner would do that. I've got to go, actually, what would you do? I've got to ask him stuff. Because I've learned over the years, we're very different in certain areas. And there's and when you assume you make an asset of you and me, so yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Third, ask Allison. Yeah. Yeah, I can play. Yeah, exactly. I agree. I think it's, it's just yeah, it's just so beneficial to just be really clear about what you want. You might not get what you want. Where you stand and ask for something. They won't be surprised because they know that's where you're hitting with things. And there's nothing up for interpretation. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. No mixed messages. Yeah, I had Adam Paige who's a South Australian. He's from Adelaide. He's a musician. And he said, when they had kids, he had to set like, literally have the conversation. This is what I need. From my music. This is what I need from this man. I should say also, that was Father's Day episode. Yes. Yes. Sorry. randomly say there's been a man on my show. That's a bit. Oh, no, I mean, it sounds great. I will get through all 70 episodes. Wow. Very impressive. You said you're up to the 70th episode. My goodness. It's a huge achievement look, honestly, I'm gonna say it again. It's just good fun. I just love doing it. I love talking to moms I love you know, chatting about stuff and sharing stuff and and I love the beat afterwards where you edit and stuff. I love doing that. So it's you know, it's a win win. That's great. Okay, doing at least peppers, strawberries, beets, rhubarb, and berries. Green, green, green. broccoli, beans, celery and apples. Spinach. Peas and lettuce. What do you got coming up the rest of the year? You said you you're still you still touring? Are you? Are you ever coming to mount Gambia? Just Well, I'm, I've got you. Gosh, I don't know, we probably will at some stage. But I can't for the life of me. Recall all of the places that we're going because there's too many. Which is actually awesome. I actually love that. That's always been a dream, you know, to just be able to to so much. But look what's coming up. I mean, we're about to we are we've, we've got so we've always got so many things on the go, which is great. We've got more books coming out. We've been very fortunate to be able to start writing and publishing some books, which is sort of based and expanded on from our songs. Obviously more touring. We've got some new music coming out towards the end of the year in preparation for Christmas time. And, yeah, I'm trying to think Is there is there anything else there's just there's just always stuff. There's always projects, and that's what I love. And, and that's yeah, that's the thing that we're hooked on. We just you just got to keep making projects for yourself, don't you? Because if you don't do it, if you don't initiate them yourselves, no one else is gonna initiate them for you. So funny I was in. I was in the shower yesterday. I get so many I don't know about you. But when I'm in the shower, it's like a portal opens up and I think of everything ever in the world. It's this Yasha thing. I'm in the shower and I'm thinking oh my god He's, I don't want to do this. And once he did, and then I got out the shower and went, Oh, but first I have to go make some school lunches and back to reality. Yeah, I'm gonna do all those jobs that actually make the day sort of just run successfully and smoothly. Oh, it was it was it was like one of those moments where it was just like a slap on the face like, yeah, you'd have to actually look after your children. You shouldn't do right. All those things download just so you don't forget them. I do. I'm an intense note writer, like I have to write down so often. I'll just like record voice messages in my phone for later. Oh, great. Yeah. There's probably quite a lot I've never really listened to. But I think if you're writing all those things down, then you're one step closer to actually achieving them than someone who doesn't. It sort of just forget tangible doesn't it's like yeah, actually, it's on a list. So it means it's, you're gonna keep thinking about it and keep, you know, well, it's all part of just making yourself accountable in a way. Yeah, it's the first step really? Yeah. Yep. Not the boss and many things. I'm just little and still learning. But I am the boss one thing. I'm not the boss of anyone else. I gotta let them be themselves. But I am the boss of one. Look, thank you so much for coming on, Beth. It's just so lovely to meet you and to chat with you. Everything keep doing what you're doing, because I think what you guys bring to the space is really important. And it does open up conversations, which is obviously that's your aim, and you're doing it beautifully. So thank you and say hi to your sister for me tell her I love her on it. I will it never gets old. Her hearing that people actually find what she does funny. If she could just mention a couple more times, you know, playing at the Opera House, that'd be good. I'm not sure if everyone's got the memo yet. I know it's too funny, isn't it? And hopefully, hopefully we do get to neck Gambia at some time or somewhere you know, you know somewhere close will if you do you know I'll be stalking you at the stage door. Oh yeah, I love that. Absolutely love that and funny. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage dotnet forward slash podcast

Jedda Glynn South Australian florist, designer and small business owner S1 Ep19 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Jedda Glynn is a designer and small business owner from Burrungule, South Australia and a mother of 3. Jedda Grew up in a small country town, surrounded by a creative family. She’s been a dancer her whole life, running the Kongorong Calisthenics Club for many years, and recently starting her own small business, The Springs Creative, where Jedda arranges rustic dried flowers, with the help of her young children. We chat about how being creative kept her sane during a difficult time in her life, the joy of sharing the creative side of the business with her children and the importance of having a supportive family around her, and the perks of living in the country and raising children on a farm. **This episode contains discussions around domestic violence and an abusive relationship** Connect with Jedda on Instagram Find out about Squib Group Find out more about the Kongorong Calisthenics Club Connect with the podcast here Music used with permission in this episode is from Alison Newman and Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... elcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with the music played, and the link to find the podcast on Instagram. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship that traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. Thank you for joining me. My guest today on the podcast is Jeddah clean. Jeddah is a designer and small business owner from barren gold, South Australia, and a mother of three jeder grew up in a small country town surrounded by a creative family. She's been a dancer for her whole life, running the conga and calisthenics club for many years. And recently, she started her own business, the springs created where She arranges rustic dried flowers with the help of her young children. Today, we chat about how being creative kept her sane during a difficult time in her life. The joy of sharing the creative side of the business with her children, the importance of having a supportive family around her and the perks of living in the country and raising children on a farm. Please be aware this episode contains discussions around domestic violence and abusive relationship. MUSIC Today is used with permission from Alison Newman, and LM Joe. Welcome, Jenna, thank you so much for coming on today. Thanks for having me. Your project is called the springs creative. Can you tell us about that and how you got started and what you make? Um, well, it's very, a very new business. Earlier in the, my partner took myself and our kids on a little holiday up to Victor Harbor. And I just snuck away from them for a while and went through a little market that they had along the foreshore and I noticed a lady up there was selling like bunches of dried wheat and little ponytails and things which we see on the side of the roads down here everywhere. Like it's a very rainy, a lovely little nature. I concept I guess. Yeah. And that's, I don't know identities, were something that I can do here on the farm. I can go out exploring with kids. And we can cut down the branches of trees that we like or that have flowers in the garden. And we just tried to dry some and it worked out really easy. So I decided, oh, let's sell them for Mother's Day. So I put together I think it was 30 odd little recycled jars with some bunches in them and started a little Instagram platform. And it sort of escalated from there. And I had it was messaging me for weddings coming up this season. And then I decided to create a website. And yeah, the little businesses grown and grown from there. So we called it the springs creative because that's where we are in Baringo it's called a little area code the springs and where we live runs alongside the Springs Road so it's sort of just clicked that little Yeah, idea. Yeah, that's great. And yes, have a look on on the Instagram. Anyone that's listening to this because they're just gorgeous. They're They're very, it's it's different, isn't it? They? I guess because they're dry. They're gonna last and last and last. They're not like the fresh flowers that are gonna do they're gonna wilt in and die. They just look amazing. You've got a real talent to for these. Putting them together. Have you always been sort of a creative person making things? I guess so. Even as a little girl I didn't have that many dolls I was writing to pencils and paper and drawing and in my room and making things my my mum and my And both bananas are right into quoting and making. So I've always had that, you know, a home I guess my dad's even quite creative being he's a farmer as well. Making things out of junk like building things and building machinery very clearly like that. And then when I was younger, my mum got me into calisthenics. So I've been in dance my whole life. I'm also a part of the conquering calisthenics club and running that club by myself as a coach. Yeah, so I've been into making costumes and sequencing and creating teens and yeah, smart my life I guess I love I love being a being hands in mind and in our guests during high school. I was in love with all the art subjects and design and things before before I go to maths and science like me, so yeah, it wasn't a great fan of school. But yeah. I can totally relate to that. Say you mentioned that your children help you gather and collect things for your work? Tell us about your children. I have three kids. I've got a son and two daughters. Yeah, what are they nearly nearly six nearly four and just turned one. Busy but a lot of my making and business planning I guess is done when they go to bed. So you spend all night doing your hypnosis because your daily times for your kids your day times for school drop offs in washing and housework. Yeah, it is. It is a big a big commitment to decide to open a business because you do have to give me your free time to to that. Yeah. That's it, isn't it? And especially having a little one too. I guess you're not. You're not guaranteed a full night's sleep either. So no, I am honestly very lucky. All the kids are great sleepers. They go to bed at seven and they they wake up at about seven the next day. So yeah, I am pretty strict on their routine. So I can by eight o'clock jump on in my office and get some stuff done. Yeah. Well, that's great. You mentioned about the farm. So do you do actually have a farm as well that you run? Yeah, my partner's a part of a family trust. So we're surrounded by family. There's Yeah. Every day there's something happening was sharing to be done. There's harvest and silage, there's Yeah, sheep work or whatever needs to have happen. They've also got a theory that they run as well. Yeah, so I am surrounded by a lot of business minded people. So it's been really great to bounce ideas. And they've actually shown quite a great interest in what I'm doing, which is exciting and encouraging. Yeah. Yeah. It's great to have that support, isn't it? And especially with having three children, you'd sort of you'd need to have a pretty good support network around you. Yeah. And my parents lived down in Congress, they're not far away, as well. So yeah, my mom has my kids a lot for me to do my calisthenics. So yeah, go away to competitions and things like that. She Yeah, she takes all that on talking about the concept of mum guilt, you know, this idea that yeah, just supposed to be doing mum stuff all the time, and we're not supposed to do anything for ourselves and Yeah, my eldest three kids from a previous marriage. So I went through a lot of dv relationship. And I left that relationship when my daughter was only, not even one years old. So I've had them longer for a long time. I don't remember much of my daughter's life, because I was going through a lot of things behind the scenes. But I feel that the calisthenics especially, was my escape from what was going on in my home, I could go to castings, and be creative and find my happiness, then come home, and it wasn't okay. So then I moved in with my parents and I could, I could let go, I could be who I wanted to be, and find my happiness again. And I still, I still have a lot of mom guilt. Because I chose to be creative over being there for my kids. But now things are a lot different in a lot happier relationship, happier home, I can juggle both I can be creative, and I can be I can be mum, and can be present. Like it's been very different. Having my youngest and going through bringing her up and, and a little the joys of breastfeeding and things we support around me. It's been a lot. lot different. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess creating the springs creative. He's also something I can do with the kids like exploring the farm, going going out into nature, and oh, look at these wondering what that's going to look like in a couple of weeks after we've hung it up and dried it, or what color could we try and make this grass because we've been experimenting with dyes and food coloring and things to try and suck up into the stems and create new colors and things like that. So that's been fun to do with kids? Oh, yeah. It's almost like a little like, like a science project or so. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it was, it was great to do through COVID as well, not their way here in South Australia had much COVID dramas, but it kept us saying that we could do a little bit of schoolwork in the morning and then get out in the garden. And we'll go for a walk around the paddock and see what we can find. Yeah, for sure. And it's like, I guess, I mean, the kids probably aren't on social media, the ages. But can they sort of delay See, they see the finished product? And they they sort of have an understanding that what they've Yeah, has made this beautiful product, I guess. Yeah, let my my daughter especially, I'll make up a bunch of flowers, and they've got to be delivered up to the hospital. Let's say this to a new baby. And she gets so excited that we're going to Yeah, make someone say brighter with something that we've made. Yeah, that's beauty. And that whole, that whole giving concept that it gives the learning that you can spoil someone without it being a toy or something materialistic it can be a bunch of flowers is enough for somebody as well. Yeah. Yeah, that's really lovely. Do you mind if we delve into this previous relationship a bit more? Is that appropriate? Obviously, if there's anything you don't want to talk about, I'm just interested this the connection that you you raised about the way that being creative was like your outlet. It was your escape. Yeah. Yeah. Can you talk a bit more about that? Is that? Yeah, well, at the time, I was teaching classes at the Congress home. And, like it was a commitment, good scribble gene for classes, two or three times a week. I had to go. I couldn't be having a worse day. But at four o'clock, I had to be there to open a hole up for these kids to come in for their classes. Like when I opened that whole door and walked in. It was I'm free, like, I can do what I want to do for the next year and a half. But when I shut that door and walk out, I have to go back to reality. So I guess it was it kept my, my my I know my gears going it kept kept me alive. You could be honest that. Yeah. And then when I guess when things got to that point where I decided that enough was enough, it still was my, my my little I was my therapy, I guess I could I was going through counseling, going through mediation and things. And yeah, I can be really stressed out. And it was my Yeah. A little a little escape from what was really going on in my life. Yeah. forever grateful for those those kids. I have no idea of what they helped me through. But yeah, they got me through some of the darkest days. Yeah, yeah. And that sense of community. I suppose having having people around you that valued you. And looked up to you. Yeah, yeah. With Yeah, definitely. I love being a part of small communities, because for that reason, your next door neighbor knows what's going on in your world. And they're there for you. Yeah. Well, yeah. My parents were my brother, my sister in law. And then, after 12 months of living with my parents, I moved into a home with my kids, just me and the two kids. And we're only a few doors down for my parents and my brother like it was a little safety net. And yeah, we got we got through it. Yeah. I met my current partner and moved down to Cancun for the first time in my life. When he moved 10 minutes up the road into Boingo. Yeah. Well done. Good for you. Yeah, that's a great, it's a great outcome. You know, you hear a lot of a lot of things not going going the other way when it comes to domestic violence. And I always consider myself one of those lucky ones. Yeah, I felt I felt like I had people behind me to push me through through that mountain because a lot of girls get to that point and they turn around if you go back to like it. I totally understand why girls go back. And it's not only girls it's guys too. But when I took those steps it was crazy how many doors were open for me with counseling. Support hearing about Gambia there's a lot a lot of things I didn't even realize to exist for people ya know, I met some amazing humans who encouraged me to keep going to keep climbing Yeah, I got there in the past I guess yeah, let's go yeah you born and bred in Congo wrong. Usually I've lived here my whole life and even the ceramics which is a beautiful area. It's only what would it be from the man it's like 15 minutes would it be yeah if that Yeah. So we're right on the highway so pretty much where the Grand Council turns to what arrange Council? Yeah. And there's the old springs hole that's still there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Often drive past that and think Oh, wonder how many lovely you know, dances and parties and stuff. They have their history around this. Phenomenal No luck there. The beautiful old homes at the old Baringo homestead there on the hill. Yeah. Love beautiful properties, like the hills and green grass and the scrub lands and stuff like that. And then like then all you can see is the bluff as well. Yeah, some fucking mornings. It's really quite eerie. When you look at over. Yeah. It's a beautiful park. That's the thing. I guess. Most people would just drive straight through there. They're on their way to somewhere else. And they just, you know. Yeah. I always did like living here in Congo. He drafted like, oh, every now and then to go to football or netball. You never paid any notice to him? Yeah, yeah, that's it, isn't it? We used to spend a lot of Sunday drives driving around with mom and dad that was just sitting on a Sunday. Go for a cook For, ya know that that tracks between here and anywhere, my dad knew them. So we spent a lot of time driving around, which I probably took for granted as a as a teenage girl or even a bit younger like I was, this is so boring. And it's my going home. And now I love it. Driving around, we decided to go in a different way home every now and then. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. And like, yeah, you kids, you kids who grow up with that different sort of view on the world, too. I suppose that there's all these hidden hidden places that people don't know about and all this cool stuff. It's a great lifestyle raising kids in, in the country and on a farm that they they see and learns things so differently. My son knows about the birds and bees now like he's just worked out for himself. Like when I was pregnant with my youngest, Haney how it all happened. So the Rams in the shape have it. That's one less conversation you've got to have as anyone have to even think about it. I guess to then the concept of death to life and death. It's not a dog. Because they see it, you know, often, I guess, yeah, like that we eat our own meat off the farm like lamb and pork. You know, kids know where it comes from. They know. They know what goes into what they have to they may the hard work that goes into raising the lambs to be that to that point, and when they go on the back to the abbatoirs. Or if the when the pigs go to the piggery from the piggery to abiqua. And they know what's happening where they're going. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's a great thing to teach children. I think too, because there's no denial then. You're not hiding things and no wedding milk comes in this year. Oh, I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a that's a good one. I think. Not recently, even a couple of weeks ago, I think my pop said to me Oh, I saw this article the city kids they don't even know where milk comes from. And it's kind of like a joke but I think it's true. You know, like there's so many kids that are detached from from that they don't understand they probably think it just goes it's in a factory in squirts out of some big machine you know, it's not Yeah, connection. Yeah, yeah. But then we don't know what goes on in city life like what it's like to ram or bus or gosh, like, yeah, yeah, what it's like to drive around you around in a car park at the shopping center trying to get apart. We don't have to deal with that. Yeah, that's a great way of looking at it. I've never thought of it that way that's really good. perspective or even when it's like to walk to school we drive to school or drive the bus stop or not that we're hugely remote but we are in a way Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's it isn't it? All these little differences and we just I guess we take for granted what we know and don't think about what we don't know the concept of identity is something that I love to chat to moms about on the podcast. Yeah. How do you feel about that? Like is it important to you to sort of put in air quotes to be more than just a mum to have your own your own identity and your sense of self? I guess I guess I know Facebook keeps reminded me of my what my life used to be before kids Saturday nights it shadows or I don't know even just little adventures I used to do back in the day is a total lifetime ago for me. Yeah, and I guess when you do become a mum you have to let go of that life yeah. You your your life comes second to your kids slow development and their their health and well being is above above yours. Yeah. But you do have to keep it leveled enough that you are your best self where you're at can't be can't be distant you can't be unwell. You've got to be that for that therefore them which I guess I've learned from the past that are needed to put my kids first to get out of that for them. Yeah. Yah, yah, yah. Yah, I love being on I probably love I love being a stay at home mom, I'm very lucky that I can have that role. But yeah, you don't can't get a break. I don't get to go to work and have seven hours without my kids. I've got to be with them. 24/7 so that so that time when they're in bed and you're doing, you're doing your thing that is that is really precious. Isn't it that time that you get? Yeah. And that that they use my time? Yeah, that's my, my. My therapy. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess you you've got to look at look at it like that, that you can use the time that you aren't with your kids to be productive, but also using it to have your time out of work. You've got to go to trade like that, like your time and Once Upon a Time was going out for dinner with friends are going out getting your hair done, but you're going to look at it differently that that's a trait it's not your everyday. Yeah, yeah, that's it. And even even having an opportunity to go to Woolies and get some groceries without the kids such Some. Some new time. Yeah. Yeah. You're still doing your mum work. It's it's your chance to Yeah, timeout or that moment before school pick up and you see the car on your phone. But your your time? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it think things take on this new perspective? And? But yeah, you're right. Like it's in finding those little moments, and then being aware of how they're fitting in for you. And not just sort of not just sort of going through the day, like mindlessly I guess. Yeah, yeah. Really pinpointing those moments saying, right, this is my time and you know, owning it and making the most, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it could be a morning the kids sleeping that little extra 20 minutes, and you get to watch sunrise on TV and have your coffee hot? Like it's yeah, those things. Yeah. Yeah. That's your time. A little things before before the answer. It's working, really getting down to the road. It's a little five minutes of freedom. I think that that sort of shifting perspective, it's, it's challenging, but I think that looking at it that way will help a lot of people too. I think just just shifting, shifting the way because yeah, life life is not going to all of a sudden say, Hey, I'm gonna look after your kids for two weeks while you go on a holiday. You know, it's an if you've got to, you've got to sort of find those little moments in the in the mundane every day, day to day activities. Yeah, and you also got to find that. I guess in your relationship to that mum and dad can have their time out when they want to, it's okay. If dad wants to go fishing or whatever mums allowed to go, go for a walk or go do what she likes to do. Yeah. Yeah. It's not just all about mum. Both and the kids, the kids also need to see that. We both we both can go do what we're gonna do. We don't have to be at the same time, I guess. Like, yeah. Yeah, like, we both can go do our own things. As parents, we don't have to rely on each other. I guess. Like, yeah, you can have something for yourself. Do something by yourself. It doesn't have to always be with someone. Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, like our relationship is like dunking, going go fishing, or go catch up with his mates or his brothers in so so it's okay. Like, it's not. We have to do everything all together all the time. Yeah. And if I go down to the sick, catch up with my friends, or go to dancing or whatever, that's, that's okay. It's yeah. Yeah, it's great for the kids to be able to say that it's not to stand like the strength in relationships. You know, you don't have you have to be with each other all the time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I guess I guess the lock the lifestyle around. Things don't stuff on the farm. You can't have Saturday and Sunday off. Things still need to be done. The weather's right after the sun been near like this weekend. We weren't planning on doing anything as such, but we ended up sharing 15 games, but yeah, the kids and I had planned to go to narracott yesterday, so we still went and yeah, we still got to do what we plan to do. Yeah. But yeah, things on the farm still have to be done. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. And I guess that teachers, sort of models, I guess, like that adaptability and that resilience. I suppose that if whatever is thrown at you, you've you've just got to deal with it at that time. And yeah, yeah. And it teaches the kids too, that plans change, as well, that it's okay. It's not something you fit. Yeah, it can be disappointing, but you keep up and walk on. And it goes on. Yeah. Because change is a big a big thing for anyone, for adults, but for children, especially when plans change. So I think that's, that's a really valuable thing for for kids to grow up with that idea that it is okay for things to change. And, and it's not a thing to be scared of, because I think a lot of people are asking. Yes, yes. Yeah. I've never thought of this stuff before. It's really cool. It's like your children are getting this their own special brand of, of life education, I suppose. Will these these little thick tools? Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And I guess I was, I was brought up the same like I was brought up that you talked about what you want to talk about, get it sorted out, there's no worrying, there's no need to go round and round in circles so that you can you can find a solution to a problem. Yeah, work it out and move on. Or? Yeah, yeah. And talk it out rather than, you know, dwell on it, hide it and internalize it and go around around around forever. Sometimes I still overthink everything. It's what we do as humans. A blurry that things are the same things. And then ends and you move on you just Yeah. Yeah, I'm blown away with our area, like, how supportive other small businesses are of small business startups. Yeah, it's fantastic. That you can reach out to other little businesses and they'll give you a heads up on things or CVS, things like I had, had a couple of girls. Say, Go for it, go to the library, market, get yourself and your branding out there and see what happens. But just Instagram alone has been amazing for me. The followers and the shares. Yeah, the inquiries for weddings has been amazing and exciting. It's exciting to share that happiness with those people. Because a lot of them have had their weddings canceled because of COVID. And to be a part of that excitement for them, and then they're still worrying that things will get canceled. But yeah, yeah, that's, I'm really looking forward to got my way our first wedding coming up on the 20th of November. So yeah, I'm super excited to. Yeah, bring all those ideas out and show what we what we can do. Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. And then to see where things go, like if we can get more into the wholesale of dry flowers. The boys this year have a lot of wheat crops in two of my partner's brothers own a business in Millicent called squeak group, which is a stock feed plant so they make a lot of canola meal and canola oil and other products as well, which has been super exciting watching them growing their business. Like it's a multi million dollar thesis, but my little flowers is flooding along but it's so good having family that around, like who are very business minded and say you should be doing this you should be doing that. Have you thought about this or? Yeah. How much did you make on it this week? What was your profit like? You should be looking at this. You shouldn't be doing that. Like I'm just a little, little, little check making some flowers. It's no big deal. No. It is great having having people like that to bounce off decisions, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's thing even though you you're the scale might be a little different, but they might, you know, have a suggestion of something and you go, Oh, I didn't realize that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, one night, every now and then they have a fire and catch up at our place. And I was saying how much dried wheat is on the wholesale market. And they all is what you can make a driveway in their crops and firewood with scissors, cutting down wheat. So I'll make a profit off their crop, so it shouldn't be fun. And even like, fracking, we've got all our scrub weeds that we spray for weeds. Yes. Huge, popular over in America like looking at the summer. And bouquets they've got those in there bouquets. Like that's something I've got my back door. Yeah, easily. Yeah. So it's cool watching trends from overseas that come into Australia and yeah, trying to get my head around things and what all the whatever on locks and yeah, that's, that's awesome. Again, that perspective shifts like something that that we spray we get rid of, because it takes you know, takes up room in the grazing and it's just a pest. People People love and they want in their bouquets. It's like the Pampas grass and things like that. Like it's, it's classed as a weed. Yeah. And I've been looking at, had a lot of people inquire for me to post them bouquets or post them arrangements, so looking by security in different states, and each state has a different role. It's amazing how Australia can be one country but have all these different laws in different states. Yeah, okay. Hey, Sydney. I've really liked to get into his posting them, but it's going to be very complicated to do it. Yeah. Oh, it sounds like you've got some fun coming up in the future. Yeah, hopefully, building and growing. Yeah, hopefully. I feel like I've finally found my little niche and my little, little thing and laughter run when I left high school in 2008 with no clue at all what I wanted to do following year 12. So it is nice. It's nice to finally find my my life but yeah. life a life that I can still be mom and still be there. For school pickups and drop offs or volunteering at the canteen or whatever. I can still do both. Yeah, I need to see where things go. That's for sure. Yeah, well, absolutely. I'll be I'll be watching. I'm sure a lot of people will be after this. Because yeah, it's a great story. And I'm really, yeah, and your products are beautiful. You know. I just thank you for having me. Yeah. I love listening to your thought your podcasts and very interesting guests you've had on so yeah, and it seems foreign to someone like me. I'm just a little little piece of the pie out here so young. It's nice to Yeah, listen to other people's journeys and find inspiration from what they've done. Yeah, it's good. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman dotnet. Age to Ellis Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Kate Mildenhall Australian writer, podcaster and educator S2 Ep26 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Welcome back to 2022, Season 2. My first guest of the year Kate Mildenhall, a writer, educator and podcaster from Hurstbridge Victoria on Wurundjeri lands, and a mum of 2. Kate is the author of two novels. Her debut novel, Skylarking , (2016) was named in Readings Top Ten Fiction Books of 2016 and longlisted for Best Debut Fiction in The Indie Book Awards 2017 and the 2017 Voss Literary Prize and The Mother Fault (2020) which was Longlisted for the 2021 ABIA General Fiction Book of the Year and Shortlisted for the 2020 Aurealis Awards, Best Science Fiction Novel. Kate also co hosts The First Time podcast a podcast with fellow author Katherine Collette about the first time you publish a book, and she is currently working on her third novel and undertaking a PhD on creative process. We enjoy a lively chat about failure, creating in a covid world, judgement of mothers, how her mothering influences her writing and why everyone should think like a 40 year old woman. **This episode contains mentions of post natal depression* Kate website / Instagram Twitter @ katemildenhall Books mentioned Rufi Thorpe article - Mother, Writer, Monster, Maid Four Thousand Weeks - Oliver Burkeman The Divided Heart - Rachel Power Making Babies - Anne Enright Listen to Claudia Carvan read The Mother Fault on audible Purchase Kate's books here Podcast instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo - Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome back to season 220 22. My guest today is Kate Mildenhall, a writer, teacher and podcaster. From her speech Victoria orangerie lens, and a mom of two. Kate is the author of two novels her debut novel skylarking, released in 2016, and her most recent released the mother fault from 2020, Kate also co hosts the first time podcast with fellow author Catherine collet. About the first time he published a book, she's currently working on her third novel, as well as undertaking a PhD on creative process. Today, we enjoy a lively and fun chat about failure, creating in a COVID world judgment of mothers, how her mothering influences her writing, and why everyone should think like a 40 year old woman, I hope you enjoy. Thank you so much for coming on case. Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's delightful to chat to you. It's lovely to meet you. Let's share with the listeners. what your background is in what you create. Well, these days, I am a writer. So I've written a couple of books. And my last one was called the mother fault. My first was called skylarking. And I'm currently working on my third book and just added a PhD because you know, COVID times was like times to do crazy things, right? So I'm doing that so and beautifully at the moment. I'm getting to do that, you know, full time in whatever kind of capacity being a full time writer is what that looks like. I know, it looks like really different things for different people. But that's what I do. eautiful So, can you share what your new book is gonna be called? Are you still working on a time we're still working on that one. And I've actually just been away for a week, which says lots of things both about motherhood and guilt and Christmas and being an artist and to work on it. Because it's just been so crazy to try and work on creative projects during the homeschooling and the rest of it. I'm over here in Melbourne. And and I've exploded the book. I've I've I've done something quite radical with it. So that's fine. Just letting it simmer all the all the crazy things I've just done. But yeah, but it's been really fun. I've been working on that for about a year because the mother fault came out last year in the midst of of lockdown. So yes, I've been I've been working away. Oh my goodness. So what's your PhD? So the PhD is is it's really fun and exciting. It's at RMIT. And it's practice based. So it means that I get to do my writing. And I also am a podcaster. So I co host the first time podcast, which is interviews with writers. And a lot of just oversharing myself and my co host Katherine about our general publishing journeys. And, but I get to include all of that. So I get to include the my kind of interviewing and my obsession with creative process because that's what I am utterly obsessed with. So I'm and then my novel is kind of part of it as well. So it's a little bit different to a traditional kind of PhD. So I'm looking really particularly at journaling, and dealing with the kind of creative process and how writers do their thing how writers do their process. That sounds really fun. Like it sounds like it's just it's just a part of what you're going to be doing anyway. So it's not going to be like a tremendous I mean, I'm not saying it's going to be you know, hard to make your life anyway, but it sounds quite doable. Yes, and like it's almost like it's given it a kind of a shape all of the other work that I do you know sometimes when you're in a position and you can describe vibe, you know, this is my writing, this is the podcast and it all kind of links, you know, and having the PhD kind of around that goes, oh yeah, this is really validating to me, because it's a serious thing that I'm doing. Yeah. And also just community. Yeah, you know, I think one of the things that happens when you're writing often and might in before I was a teacher, so I was really used to having lots of people around me and a big collaborator. And so I have often found the writing process to be quite lonely. And so even just having the system of the PhD and colleagues and supervisors and to be able to part be part of that network already, like I'm in the six months in MIT, it's, that's wonderful. Yeah, so it's really meeting that need the that creative space that Yeah, to do so. Also, now the kids are really excited, cuz they like, oh, my gosh, you're gonna be adopted one day? Yes. So they're super pumped about that? Before we get to the kids, I know that was you gave me a beautiful segue there, but I'm gonna go take you back. Yeah. Did you do have you always been a writer? Or you know, when you? No, no, no. So I was at school, like, passionately into it kind of wanted to be a writer, wrote lots, you know, at high school and did the Friday anthology and won awards and things like that. And then I wanted to do this tape degree, Brian MIT writing and editing as, when I left, I went talk to the careers teacher about it. And apologies to people who've heard this story, if any of your listeners had, because I've told it so many times, but the TAFE their careers teacher said, Kate, Smart Girls don't do TAFE and basically said, don't do that course. And I was like, Ah, right. And, you know, not having not having kind of much goal of my own at that stage. I went off and did something else, which I promptly dropped out of, you know, after a year and went off traveling. But I went back and did that, that that course, eventually, which is the delightful thing, but no. So I went and traveled for a while, then I went back to uni and did teaching. And at that time, I kind of, I was writing a little bit like journaling a lot, but writing a little bit, and I, I put something in for a competition, and I didn't get anything, didn't, didn't get anything at all. And after all of these years of like, you know, winning things or getting commended in them. It was such a rude shock to me. I mean, I laugh at it. Now I tell this story to students because and they have a laugh at my expense. But I just I saw it as a huge failure and rejection. And I was like, Oh, I can't I can't write, I'm not going to write. And so I stopped. I stopped for like, all of these years, and I taught and you know, I was passionate about reading about teaching writing, and but I just I, other than my journal, I don't think that I wrote anything during all of those years. And then it was actually when my firstborn arrived that I felt compelled to write again. So yeah, so I writing wasn't, I never thought that I could be a writer when I grew up or that you know that that was a crazy outlandish kind of a thought. It's really interesting you say about that validation that you put that entry in, and it didn't get anything. And then that defines how you feel about your creativity. I had a similar experience years ago, because I used to do in a we had to do a Stanford's when we were proud of this group. And I was used to doing pretty well. And then I went in this larger competition and didn't even place and so I stopped performing. Because I'm not as good as I thought I was. You know, and for years, I let that define me that I wasn't, I wasn't as good as I thought I was. So I just went well, I must be very good anymore, isn't it? It's how do we it's ridiculous. I know. And, and heartbreaking. And often, when I'm talking about it with other writers, I'll say, you know, prepare for it and expect it and like get them in early, get as many values as you can eat early because I wasn't you know, I wasn't I hadn't developed any muscle in that area. So I so exactly like you say I just I did let it define me and like what a waste. I mean, I eventually came back to it. And I'm so glad and I think that you know, anyone who is an artist of any description probably has that kind of pulse in them that it's going to come out at some stage like you've got to make space for that at some stage or else it'll eat you up. And I'm so glad that it did. But I still think gosh, those, those wasted years in there as well. So these days, how do you view that kind of experience? Now? Like, if if you put yourself in something and you don't get it? How do you process that for yourself? That's such a good question. The, the, the last one that I had was actually, in the middle of the kind of process of the mother fault. I, I lost the original publisher and had to go and kind of start, start shipping it out again. And I was in, you know, I was broken for a little bit like it was it was rock bottom, I, I didn't think that I would be able to look at the manuscript again, I was hurt, and yet felt a lot of self loathing, I think. And what I realized during that period, was that I was going to do the damn thing anyway. You know, like that, I think that I had got to a point where I was like, Well, I don't care. I'm going to, you know, this, this book is kind of bigger than may sounds a bit wonky. But you know, we're in that sense, where you're like, I've got to see this thing through to the end, and see what it does. And so that was the thing, in the end that that got me through, and I think it's just layers, isn't it of rejection and failure along the way. I mean, you know, often, and you might be in the same position that, you know, people will say, Oh, yeah, but you your published like, How could anything ever go wrong from here, or you've got the thing, you know, you've already reached the goal, or you've been able to perform there or do that. And, and, I mean, the stakes just get higher, in a sense, and you just get rejected more publicly, with, with bigger stakes along the way. So yeah, yeah, that, that it's been a good, it's been a good learning process. For me, I think. And I just, I really do wish that I just failed more and failed more often. I think, too, when you're younger, no one sort of teaches you how to how to fail, like no one, no one says, Okay, now that now that you've lost, or they were better, or someone thought they were better, what how do you talk to yourself about that? Like, how do you do that, like, no one teaches so true. So you sort of know, just find your own way through. And unlike in both of our situations, it takes a long time. So you sort of think, gosh, if I hadn't done that earlier, what could I have achieved, you know, in all that time and space, instead of pushing things away, you know? Yeah, yeah. I agree. Teachers listening tapes. Had a flat. And that's I'm going on a tangent now. But that's the thing too, like, are we so afraid of those emotions that we don't want kids to lose? We that's why we give them everyone gets a for trying sticker and everyone gets Yeah, more than when we play pass the pass like kids parties. Everybody has to get a wrap up? You know, I know. And it's really hard. Everyone has to keep one has to be happy all the time. Yeah, I think that the hardest thing to do you find like sitting with your kids disappointment, and all those emotions that you can't fix, you know, something going on at school, and you just have to have to resist the impulse to try and fix it and make it make it better all the time. You know, and to take the discomfort away because it's, you know, you do have to feel all those horrible emotions and get and get used to them. That's thing if you don't have the opportunity to feel them, you could never work through them. So then all of a sudden you feel them and you go, what's this? I don't know what to do with this. And yeah, you deal with it in inappropriate ways. Like eating too much or drinking. Absolutely. All of the above. Oh, my gosh. Let's lean into your children. Tell us about your family. Okay, so I have I have two daughters. Gracie is my eldest. She's 10 going on 11 kind of you know, going on 19 And she is fiery and amazing. And then my youngest is Etta. And she's eight. Also fiery and amazing. And, you know, it feels very funny kinda I'm talking about them. At this point, I was actually really looking forward to, you know, to doing this because the book that I wrote is the last one is very much informed by my experience of motherhood. But you end up kind of packaging it in certain ways, like for the book world, you know, you package it in these kind of little sound bites. And, and in fact, the girls think it's hilarious because they were around so much when I was doing promo for the book, because we were all in lockdown. And they, they got really cross a couple of times, because they must have heard me say things like, you know, parenting is really hard. And I didn't like it all the time. Like, yeah, it's true, you know, and I'm gonna have to live with the fact that there's all these sound bites out in me talking about, you know, how kind of shit parenting has been at various times. But they are, they are glorious beings. We've just spent a lot of time together in the last 18 months. And, you know, it's kind of, I never realized the joy of watching them go off to their independent things, and all come back at the end of the day and be able to like, we've all done different things for the day is a very new and strange experience that I think only parents who've lived through this kind of last 18 months really understand. So they're my two. Yeah, they've done things during the day that you don't know about. That would be nice. Yeah, exactly. We're all really, really excited to tell each other about what? Oh, my goodness. So during that time, how did you manage to continue to do stuff during lockdown? Ah, we, you know, we didn't I think we just we just kept on failing beautifully. And when we first went in, so who even knows when that was maybe March, last year, I'm I'm sitting here in this little studio that my darling partner built for me in the backyard, and it was just finished, like, literally just finished the week before locked down. Where Of course, he also moved home and had to kind of write out do his work from home as well. He's a psych nurse. So he was kind of out and about, but also doing a lot of his work here. So this saved us having this actual separate space, because I used to work in the corner of the lantern. So I actually don't think that we would have survived at all, had we not had this. And the other beautiful thing was that because Adam, you know, his workplace was really good and quite flexible, so that he could do a lot of the homeschooling stuff in the mornings and then go out, you know, we just kind of juggled a bit between each other. And, and the kids, we live, we live kind of on the outskirts of Melbourne, there's a lot of trees, there's a big reserve behind us, like, I did feel extremely lucky that we had a bit more space around us. And, and we did you know, some of it, maybe the first two locked, it wasn't really, some of it was really lovely. And I think we did do that stuff of going, okay, we can have a fire in the backyard on a Wednesday night. And, you know, I would walk with one of the girls in the morning before they started just to give them a bit of space away from each other. And we did really pay attention to the flowers and the mushrooms and the birds and you know, so So for all that it was incredibly difficult. And there's also quite a few kids in our street. And we live in, you know, a little space where we could offer each other that support with other families and, you know, playing in the street, and across driveways and things like that. So I think really, we didn't you know, I lost a fair bit of work but but was still able to carry on, you know, we weren't in a really difficult kind of position with our jobs, and Adam kept his job. So for all those things, I think, you know, we were in incredibly, incredibly lucky. But also, as I said, to all of my mates and all of our WhatsApp threads, who had kids, you know, as we all kind of know, you know, we would all spiral down at certain points and just say like, I can't do this, I cannot do it anymore. I can't because it was never part of the deal that we signed up for right as parents, especially when then especially when you've already sent them out into the world and off to school and the rest of it like to suddenly have these big, curious, active social kids home with you all the time. And we're just we're just not equipped to provide everything that was partly out of the better the deal. Oh, man, look, hats off to you guys over there like we've we've had Touchwood we've had nothing as extreme as that. So yeah, you guys were often in our thoughts over here, all the Melbourne people, it's just unreal what you've been through. So, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, it's sad, and to be able to maintain your creativity maintain. Yeah, and I think creativity, you know, at times, and I've talked about this with a few friends in the writing world. You know, I was like, oh, gosh, maybe I should just go and train, retrain, I'll retrain to be like, a personal care attendant, or, you know, like, if there was that sense of, like, what is the point of doing my art in, you know, in a burning world, in a burning world, in a world that's collapsing, and so there was that pressure, but also the kind of focus or deep work that I find I need to do creative work just wasn't there, you know, I couldn't you at any stage knew you're going to be interrupted, couldn't get purchase on any kind of thought to go deep on it, I am often need to go away, or that's the way that I've done my kind of writing practice is that a few times a year, when it works, I'll go away for a few days, either with a writing group or on my own and, and go really deep on it. And that's where I find you know, I have real breakthrough, so to not have any of that, but also to not have any of that kind of friction of being out in the world, you know, and, and seeing people or interacting with people or observing things, or being able to go to the ocean, or all the things that would normally fill me up so that I have some kind of something to give some output. Whereas I felt like what what do I possibly have? I've been inside my house, with my children, you know, worrying and that anxious, you know, that kind of being in lizard brain mode of at any stage about that uncertainty, but also thinking? Am I supposed to panic now? How am I protecting my children, you know, and being fearful of other people, for the first time was a very strange kind of thing. And I think it'll take a while for us all to get to the other side of that. Hmm, absolutely. It's sort of I had a moment where I was going for a walk one day, and all of a sudden, I just thought, oh, shit, has that person got COVID? Like, I was just starting to panic. And I felt myself sort of shiver and, and I just sort of backed up and went home real quick. I thought, this is a horrible thing to be thinking. Yeah, well, but it was like, and then every time you turn the telly on everything on the radio, you just couldn't escape it. And it was just disastrous. So that's when I basically came into my studio and started music, more music stuff, I just had to get out of the current world and go back into a different world. So you found it. So you could do that. You could then put your energy into that space. Yeah, that's I basically had to, I use it as an escape. Maybe. I just had to end. What I ended up doing was I look, I was I was listening to a lot of older music, I think to take myself out of the current time space to Yes, yes. So I started doing covers of, of older songs. And I ended up releasing them all because it was like, I created different versions of the songs, got different backings, got a piano player, change the tempo, all this stuff. And it was sort of my way of looking back on it. Now. I don't think I realized at the time, but, but making sure that things were different. That changing. I didn't like what was happening. So I was changing it in some way. You know, I love that. Yeah. It's really that's the first time I've actually articulated that out loud. That's really interesting. Well, it's very profound. You mentioned before about your mother's hope novel, now you write fiction. So yeah, at school, I could never remember the difference. That's your struggle. I'm just, yeah, fiction made up, which means it's made up. But you mentioned that your mothering role had a lot of influence over that. So what sort of themes were you exploring in the book and I apologize, I haven't read your books. No, absolutely. Read say that. Because I I'm not a very good reader. I don't like to sit still and read. Isn't that terrible? No, not at all. Not at all. Then they, the mother fault is a it's a kind of a thriller. It said in the very near future, and it's about a woman MYM, who's got two kids, Sen. Sam and when the novel opens, her husband, Ben has gone missing on an overseas mine site. And in this very near future, Australia, everyone has tracking chips in their hands. But he's offline, they can't work out where he is. And very quickly, she's told to stay where she is, and not to investigate it any further. And so she does. So she does, because they kind of threatened to take her kids away from her. And she says stuff this, I'm gonna go and find him. And so she goes on the run. So she crosses Australia, with the two kids and then gets on a yacht and, and sails to Indonesia to try and search for him. So, you know, where the idea came from. My first book was historical fiction, so nothing at all in this kind of world. But when I finished skylarking, I was kind of sitting with this idea of the kids at that stage. Maybe Esther was like, two and Gracie was four, I think. And I was deep in that bit that those trenches where you like, wow. Not at school yet. So you're doing that kind of childcare, kinder, you know, crazy run every day is no more than kind of two hour, lots of anything. And I, and still that period, where it's just really hard. It's just really hard, you haven't I hadn't kind of totally I'd had this moment when the book came out of kind of re re identifying as, as, as a writer, and while I'm a professional out in this world, but also, then I just come home, and it's just, you know, back to packing snacks and feeling guilty about them not being organic, and the rest of it. And so there was that stretch, there was that kind of huge amount of feelings, both positive feelings, I adore these kids, I will do anything for these kids, I would kill for these kids at the same time as sometimes wanting to run away. So there was those feelings that I had. And at the same time, it was very deep in the political kind of craziness of the asylum seeker debate, and which, of course, we haven't at all fixed or done anything good about in this country. And so I was kind of like having that daily thing of the news of watching, particularly women who were, you know, crossing oceans in really unsafe ways to try and make their kids safe. At the same time going, I just want to run away from my kids like, how, how are these two? How can I reconcile these feelings? Yeah, so for that reason, you know, over time, I realized that I wanted to write about a woman, you know, on the run, trying to kind of protect our kids, but also trying to make sense of who she is, and what she's allowed to want. Now that she's a mother, and is she allowed to want the things that she used to want. She you know, she has a kind of crazy affair with an ex lover on the boat, in, in the book, not not a real spoiler, because lots of people talk about it when they read the book. And, you know, it was that kind of thing. And people have got cross, like, it's one of the things in the book that people are really cross about. Because that, I think, when we, when we look at mothers in fiction, and mothers in general, in society, we have all these expectations of how they're supposed to behave and how they're supposed to feel, and what they're supposed to prioritize. And if you kind of, you know, poke the bear, I suppose, and say, well, maybe this isn't what, what we want, or what we always want, and maybe it's complicated. You can get some big responses out of people. So, you know, that's what I kind of wrote in my, my feelings. I also, you know, there's a kind of thread of, it's not named, but postpartum depression, which I think I probably had but never really understood. The first time around with my first with my first daughter. Yeah, so everything, all of the feelings, all of the feelings, I kind of composited into the book. Did you find that was the way view of you're dealing with that stuff? Like you use that as a way to work through things? Yeah, I do think so. I think I was so compelled at that point to write about the motherhood experience, and in a way where I really wanted him to be kind of this superhero figure. And in fact, beautifully a couple of reviewers have kind of commented that you know, like, she's the kind of Jack Reacher of she's just like mum version of Jack Reacher and I love that. I love that because it was about it. saying, you know, I definitely don't have any answers in there. But, but being able to talk about it and being able to look at this idea that instead of, instead of what I feel like there's some pressure to do, which is to say, oh, okay, I'm a mum now. And so now I do things in a, in a mum way, like, I erase this kind of version of myself that was there before, which, it just seems so crazy, but I think to a level where or compelled to do that a little bit like, okay, you know, now we do things this way. And, and it was great to be able to examine this, this feeling of going on, I am still that young version of myself too. As part of it, I went on a yacht, I'd never been on a yacht before. And I, I crude, I volunteered to crew on a yacht, from Darwin to Indonesia, in a race. And, like, it was, it was crazy. It was one of the craziest things I've ever done. And it was incredible. And part of what was incredible about it is that it was scary, you know, and, and I, I reached new levels of fear. And when I was underneath, you know, at one night in my cabin, before, when I came off the late shift and thinking, we're going, you know, this boat is going to tip over which of course, that's not what happens. But if you think I'm gonna die in this boat, and that's going to be ridiculous. And my daughters are going to think, Oh, Mom was doing this stupid research for a stupid book. And she drowned in the middle of the table. It's a, but when I got to Amazon as well, I got to travel around a bit. I stayed there for a few extra days. And on my own, like traveling on my own, like I hadn't, you know, kind of really ever, but also, I remembered that my 19 year old self who was a backpacker who, who could make a decision on the corner about which way they were going to go and not to reach consensus with an entire family about what they wanted to eat or what snack they wanted it. You know, it was remembering that kind of that kind of sense of myself, which I think was powerful. Oh, that's incredible. That's, that is so good. And that's when you had your sordid affair. Yeah, no, definitely not. That part wasn't true? Yeah, that's that is so cool. Because what you're saying about society's expectations of what a mother should be? I feel like that is that that's what seems to drive the mom guilt. I think it's like, you see, or you do a post on your socials or whatever, or you see someone else's. And there's all these comments and you think, across what are we supposed to be doing then? Are we supposed to be spending time with the kids? And we're not supposed to be spending time? Are we supposed to be going getting our hair done? Without? Like, it's all this constant? Yes. Judgment. Yeah. Yeah. How do you do that? So I think, you know, I actually had a gorgeous, gorgeous dinner last night with, with very old friends that I went to school with. And, you know, as always, as we talk about work and life, and our marriages and our kids, you know, we were commenting and we've all just we're in the the years of old turning 40 that we've just reached part where we an excuse the language, you can put a language you want to have no fucks left to give. And, you know, but but we were commenting, like how that's been a slow process, and that in all those early years, like, all those things, am I packing the right snacks? How many cakes? Should I bake for the cake store? Should I be on the Kinder committee? Should I you know, how will we how are we approaching this way of parenting the kids like, just constant self judgment, constant comparison? And then additionally, if you're a creative, so you've got all that world over there, and then if you're a creative, you've also got the like, how much of myself can I give to my parenting and how much of myself can I can I keep over for my art and how selfish I was just rereading this amazing article by roofie thought which I'll send through to you. It's called Mother writer monster made and it was something that I was really touchstone for me while I was writing the book, and it's about her kind of really grappling with this idea of, I think it's Jenny awful, who says about being an art monster, like, you know, that, that, that there's this sense that throughout history, you know, all of the, you know, the old white male writers like they just set up in their studios or whatever their attics writing while they had a wife to do everything else, they didn't see their children, they could, they could spend all of their energy, all of their intellectual space, all of it on, on doing their work. And I don't, I don't want to do that, like I, I do want to kind of be involved and go down and see the carols at lunchtime and do those things. Like I feel very lucky that it's worked out in a way that I do get to be present. But also sometimes I do not sometimes I want to go away for two weeks and work on my book and forget, honestly, forget for a minute that I have children, because I think part of it is that that enormous part of our brain, which is constantly, constantly with the kids somewhere, you know, worrying about or just ticking over slightly, you know, have they got something today? Have they got that bag, all that present that I need to get, you know, and then and then the biggest thing is, are they happy? Have we made the right decision? Should we send them to an alternative school sheet, you know, all of the things that just wind around in your head all the time? And sometimes I think, Wow, if I? What could I do with that space? You know, what can I do with that space? And I think I had the most I had the beautiful kind of opportunity to interview Helen Garner for our podcast. A couple of weeks back, you bring that up? Well, it was incredible. But you know what I had? I you know, I've read her for so long. And I asked her about why she hasn't had to answer the motherhood questions so much. I mean, she talks about motherhood in her journals, particularly, but I was kind of wondering whether it was just my age that she did get asked that, you know, maybe when she first published monkey grip, and she says, this most glorious thing about, you know, when she had her daughter who's about to turn 50. So that gives you a sense, or who's a bit older than 50, I think. She said we didn't have a choice. Like it wasn't a decision to make, we just had kids, there was no anxiety about it, there was no thinking that it was a choice. And she's she tells this beautiful story about you know, for better or for worse that basically she kind of strode out into life. And she, she told her daughter to, you know, to kind of keep up. And she and she, you know, typical Garner always says, I don't know if that was the right way to do it. But that's how I could do it. And I and and she acknowledges also that there's just an an incredibly different level of anxiety around even the decision to have children now, which has made it all the more complicated. Think, yeah, because everything is a decision and you're so conscious about what am I saying? Yes to what am I taking away from my kids? Should I just be sitting here kind of being around for them? Or should I go out and do the thing that I really want to do, which takes me away from them, but, you know, maybe in 20 years, they're going to say, Gee, mom really did what she loved. You know, that's what you have to kind of hope right? across you. Be in therapy talking about us? Exactly, exactly. We can I mean, we can't do it. Right. You know, there's ways that we can, I suppose, try and mitigate against a failure and really bad ways every day for them. But I, I have got better we talked about failure before I've also got better at realizing that um, you know, I'm going to stuff this gig up this parenting gig up constantly, constantly, I'll stuff it up and, and being able to say that to the kids as well, you know, maybe is, is one way of getting through it. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I wasn't even. You mentioned, do you have girls have heard you say comments like that, while you're at home doing you your book launch? Is it important to you that they actually see that you are going out and doing stuff? I don't want to say not just being a mom, because there's no Yeah, being a mom? Of course, you're I'm hearing that. Yeah, no, it really is. And you know, the first time that that was truly validating, so I went on mat leave from at that stage. I was working in this at the State Library doing education there. And I went on mat leave. And that's when I realized I think I said before, you know, when Gracie was born, I just felt this extraordinary urge to write again and it kind of came at me in different ways. I tried to join a local writing group, it didn't work then you know, and not until Esther was born. Did I really go Okay, that's it. I'm gonna I'm going back to uni. I'm going to do it. And which led to some of the first kind of guy games that the kids played when they were, you know, doing imaginary play, were picking up laptop bags and going to you playing going to uni. And I thought I remember thinking, Oh, this is a good thing, let you know, like that they are seeing me do this, that it's this kind of crazy working life that I have. But they're, you know, incredibly proud of it. They like googling me, they think that's really fun. But, you know, and so they liked that part of it. On the other hand, it you know, at some point they will, maybe they will read, the mother felt and that's terrifying. Like, I think I will feel really unscanned by that process, because I you know, it has, it is really revealing of the fact that sometimes you don't want to have to be both, you don't want to have to be a mother and artist and friend, and you know, partner and all of those things. You just like, just give me some space, just do one thing. But But I also think I've tried to be really open, the kids have seen me at rock bottom, the kids have seen me on the days where I've had to close the door and have a cry and say, just let me have a cry, Nia, you know, I need I need time out. And for better or for worse. That's the kind of way that we've run with it. So hopefully, they will, you know, they will see that as an honest part. But I am conscious to that. You know, I haven't written memoir, and I think it must be really hard for people who are writing nonfiction and kind of living living their lives. And their children's stories far more openly. Like I'm conscious of that. And I do read with with close interest how people navigate talking about their kids, when they start to have a profile in terms of what their art does as well, I think that's just hard. I don't have any answers to that. Is you have to think you'd have to be so considerate of them. Have them exactly be so aware of. Yeah, it can be quite hurtful for them. You know, it's Yeah. And as they start to talk about, you know, I think one of the things that happened which is really funny in the process of it took me four years to write the mother fold is that, you know, Gracie, Gracie grew up, and I and so I changed the one of the characters se she actually grew older, I made her older in the course of it because it was suddenly became so fascinating talking with my daughter, you know, like, when they get to that part where they start, you know, you start having really interesting kind of conversations and they're curious and and they've kind of leveled up in the intellectual stakes. So much so that you think whoa, whoa, what have we got ourselves into here? This is a real little human who has like, really big thoughts about the world. So you know, that's interesting as well, to me, that's, that's wonderful. And I love their perspective or perspective on the world and the way that they can so throw you with their truthiness. Sometimes, oh, gosh, yeah. I work in childcare. That's That's my day job. And I see you get those. I'll never tire of the amazing things children really funny things, but things yes. Just makes you stop and think and go, Oh, my gosh, you're seeing the world in such a different way to me and it's wonderful. You know, it might pull yourself back of seeing this whole you know, where they're oblivious of so much stuff and it's wonderful love to be able to be like that again. Be overawed by all these big things that are happening and just be concentrating on this. This crayons not not the crown the next sharpening biggest thing in my world right now is to get that sharpener, or I'm not gonna be able to do what I need to do you know, just Yeah. Oh, just living so simply and in the moment, in the moment, not worrying about not worrying about you know, the possible trials that will come when they're teenagers. I love that they're doing it right. It's beautiful. I love that. Do you think that that huge desire and drive that you had to get back into your writing when when Gracie was a baby was that some of that born from sort of finding your, I don't wanna say, reclaiming your identity, but perhaps trying to discover who you were at that time. Like, I'm a mom, it's really interesting that mean for pre K, yeah, it was, you know, I had, I had done these little tiny baby steps to stepping away from what I thought was expected of me. So, you know, I thought that my parents were both teachers, while I had attempted to do this little kind of attempted at the end of school to do this, something else, you know, media, TV, whatever, it didn't work out, and I thought I will, you know, what you do as a, as a good member of societies that you work in nine to five job and you it's actually more than nine to five, because they were teachers. So it was kind of, you know, all consuming, and you do that really well and passionately, and then you, you know, you have a partner and you get married and, and buy a house and, you know, go camping and all the things like I was really like, this is what you do with your life. And when I had this opportunity to go to the State Library to work for under secondment kind of thing just for for three months. And suddenly I was like, Oh, wow. Like, the world is not just like a school, you know, like, there are other people and they have better like work life balance than I do, you know, and all of this kind of stuff. So I started unhooking myself a little bit from what I thought was expected of me. And then the shock of being a parent. And, you know, it was we had, we were 10 days late, Gracie was breached out to have an emergency cease, like it was not, it wasn't how we planned it at all. So it was all a bit of a shock. And in the first six months after Grace's birth, I lost two grandparents, both who have whom I was really close to. So it was kind of just a bit of a shitshow. And I think I found the capacity to write things down. Kind of hilly or like that there was this enormous force, you know, that visceral kind of thing, when you when the kids are born, you're kind of leaking, no one tells you how much you're going to leak like you just kind of wet for, I don't know, for six months, maybe longer, you know, like and how much and the sleep deprivation and all of those the just the craziness of the world that you're in, as well as that feeling of being affronted that no one told you it was gonna be like this, even though they attempted to. But no one really, no one really kind of told you and then I think being out in the world, I clearly remember, you know, I had that I had a year's worth of maternity leave. And I remember like, I don't know, go into the park or something immediate friend for a coffee on a Wednesday, lunchtime and going like, Wednesday, lunchtime is a time in the world where people are not just at their work, like people are out there in the world. And they're doing other things. And I know it sounds really crazy now. But I really did have to deprogram myself to what I thought life was meant to be. And even in that first year after skylark in, you know, and since the mother faults come out, it's still a daily practice of going this is a kind of a life that I've made for myself, that makes me incredibly happy and fulfilled and it does not meet, it does not check all the boxes, like doesn't check the financial box doesn't check, you know, a lot of the boxes, and yet I am so much kind of mentally healthier and happier than I was when I was killing myself trying to you know, be a teacher lot of the writing of the mother fault is about geology as well, I did all of this incredible kind of reading about geology, and I think it is that, um, you know, you kind of, they shift you off, they shift the axis, you know, you kind of it's kind of like and start you're spinning in a in a different kind of direction. I think having having the kids and I don't think, you know, I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that they make you better or wise or anything like that, because I know plenty of incredible humans who are not parents and they are incredibly wise and amazing and have kind of lived the full breadth of experience. But I think in terms of what it does for you personally is that it kind of just kicks you off where you are, and you have to look at you have to look at everything differently and and in that act of shifting I think I think Matt label or you know if you're lucky enough to have it or at least that space where you're kind of recovering from actually birthing or or having a newborn in any way that because it it so dramatically changes your day to day that you are forced to to reconsider things and often I think it's a real shame like, especially for friends who, particularly the men, who didn't necessarily get any parental leave or things like that, like life just kind of rolled on. And that, that what I'm so grateful for is the big kind of abrupt shift that made me go, Okay. Well, how do I want this to be? You know, how do I want my life to be? And I've got, I've now got a little human on the outside of me, who's also my responsibility. But how do I want our life to look? Yeah, and without that, you probably would never have come to that realization, you would have just kept going along, doing it slowly along exactly. I just wanted to touch on, you mentioned about the mother for having like, the geology. And so the title of the book is that, I'll give you my take on it. Yeah, because I really loved English at school, and I loved analyzing things. And to this day, my sister, it drives me nuts. When we watch movies, I'm always picking up the love that she's in the light. He's higher than her. She's all this sort of, you know, so basically, this is my take on it. And I say, again, I haven't read it. So I can't say, but it's, to me, it's two things, right? It's the fault. As in fault, as in the mother does things wrong, whatever, you know, no, one's perfect. Finding your way, whatever. And then the fault of like, the geology, like the fault lines of the things that move the earth, sort of Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Brilliant. Absolutely perfect. And it's not, um, it's not a technical one, someone who did a read for me at one stage was like, Is this a technical term? Like the greatest, you know, fault line? And I said, No, I totally just made it up. But in terms of, but yes, absolutely refers to that. But the funniest thing was that when I kind of got to it, and and it is that one of those beautiful things we I, I came up with the title myself, because often, you know, often publicy and you know, the publisher will do a title for you, because the one that you've got is shocking. But um, so I did come up with it myself. And I called my mom. And I was like, Ma'am, I've got it. I think I've got the titles of calling the mother felt. And she said, Oh, you can't call it that. And I said, why? And she said, Ah, because it's always the mother's fault. Like people associate those words together all the time. And I was like, Yeah, I know. Like, that's the point. And so many people have said, booksellers, particularly that like, women will comment on it, whether or not they buy it, and sometimes they do, but they will comment on the phrasing of it, because, and, and it provokes a lot of feelings. And I think that I think, you know, we love to a fault. As well as all of that guilt stuff about, you know, me in the book, you know, is kind of like running across the country, you know, escaping from the government, these shady government forces who are looking after her looking after the kids, and she's still wearing, like, oh, maybe we've had takeaway too much this week, like, you know, you know, because that is, that is how the brain works, you know, that you're, you're in absolute kind of danger mode. And the other thing is that, you know, when, when I won't give away the ending in the book, the part that I often read out, too, is that towards the end of the book, when MIM kind of works out what her husband's been up to, and she's really cross and she says, You know, I would have liked to be a hero too, but I was at school pickup, you know, and that, that in the end is what happens to us, you know, like, that is, that is literally in a nutshell. Brilliant, yeah, you know, that you you could do anything you could do you could be anything, you know, that this the possibility of what we have available to us. And of course, part of that is also being a parent and, and that the possibilities that are opened up with that, and the kinds of highs of our our extraordinary, but also the day to day logistics of it are just shit. You know, they just really, and I'm sure some people enjoy it, but I do not. And I know lots of people who do not, and they take up time and brain space and energy and and if there was one thing that I think kind of delicious thing that came out of COVID and lock downs is this tendency, which I hope we can try and hold on to which is to say, okay, maybe we can just have a fire in the backyard on Wednesday night and not do 18 afterschool activities and go to every party and say yes, they have We think maybe we can just, you know, hold on to a little bit less to think that it's enough the way that we're doing things. And then we have space for those other big, crazy wild possibilities that we want for ourselves or for our families. That would be a nice thing. I think I totally, totally agree with that. I can recommend a book which I just listened to on as an audio book. It's called 4000 weeks. Oliver Berkman, I think his name is. And the premise is, if we live to AD, that's what we've got 4000 weeks, that's only, you know, 4000, Saturday nights, 4000, Sunday mornings, and it was kind of like, it was very confronting when I first started listening to it, but his premise is, you know, it's limited, it's finite our time here. So you got to be when you can't do everything. And we think we've been fed this lie that we can, particularly women, particularly in the last 20 years, you can do everything you can have you agree, you can be kids, you can look amazing, your house can look amazing. You can see all your friends, you can have a great marriage, like bullshit. Yeah, you actually just cannot get to doing this. Yeah. It's impossible. It is impossible. And, you know, the book, I keep saying to my partner, you know, like, it's changed my life. He's like, your only two days in my blog post finishing the book. So just, maybe it hasn't changed your life yet. But I feel like it's got the capacity to have I keep reminding myself like, you know, I'm 40. Now like, that's it. I'm halfway through my 4000 weeks, like, come on, what are you going to do with the rest of them? You know, make them count? Can I ask I don't know if this is a sacred or not, but does mean get another book about it? Does she? Does she ever come back? You know, what she not at this stage? Lots of people were super duper interested in that, because it's left on a bit of a cliffhanger. Oh, hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah. I hadn't I hadn't planned there to be and hopefully. Yeah, I can't, I can't make any large announcements about such things. But hopefully, hopefully she gets a turn to, you know, be adapted into screen in some way. Oh, yes, but not that I would say anything about that. But hopefully, that's something that happens. I love this podcast because I find out things about other artistic pursuits that I know nothing about. So tell me how, when you write a book, do you then have to go you have to go find someone to publish it for you. You have to send it off to lots of people and stuff. Well, essentially, what we're how it works, that that's essentially how it works. One of the one of the great lucky breaks of my life is that when I was starting the course that I did the writing course at RMIT, I started writing skylarking as part of, you know, subject to their novel subject. And I actually managed to get that picked up by a publisher before it was finished. So it's very rare that that happens. And that happened. Which was incredible. And since then I've got an agent. So in Australia in particular, definitely in the overseas, the best thing to do is to find a literary agent, if one can you know, I mean, the other thing about it that's been so strange, is you kind of think, oh yeah, I got my first book published. And now I'm just gonna get books published. Like, that's the way it rolls. And of course, that doesn't happen either. Like every single one is still, you know, has to be great. It has to be ready to be published, it has to there has to be space in the market, there has to be all those other you know, everything has to kind of align and combined. So that's why so often, you know, writers in this country, in on average $12,000 A year from their writing, like it's ridiculous. I mean, there's a few outliers, but that's why so often they've got all the other hustles that they have, whether or not they're in writing, like any artists in this country, in fact, because we're so ridiculously and chronically underfunded and undervalued. But you know, that's why having this little bit of time where it has been, I have been able to do it because I got an advance for the book. So I have been able to just focus on writing and feel validated that I don't also have to take on every teaching gig and every workshop key you know, and because that's, that's really hard and that's the other side of the you know, Being an art monster, or, you know, being creative is that then you've got to also manage your own business, about that. And all everything that that comes along with that, which I think often too, is not instinctively where an artist strengths might be. Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, it's very hot, you know, and we want to collaborate, and we, and we want to do all the things and we want to be excited. And it's really hard to kind of insert yourself in there and say, Actually, but hang on, am I being paid for this? Or Hang on? How many hours? Is this gonna take me? Um, one of the things that one of my gangs do have women all have, we're all right, as we're all parents. And at certain times, we've written each other's like, hardcore emails for each other. Whether we're saying, no, actually, we need to be paid more than that, or this is how much I'm charging, because it's still so instinctively hard to do it yourself. I'm getting better at it. But it's still really hard to do it. To do it yourself. Yeah, so the business side of it is just an absolute mess. But I must say that having a my incredible agent on board now. And she's amazing, and she just no bullshit. And she does the, the bits that I both don't understand. And I have no energy for and she lets me in, which protects the time that I have then to write, which is what soulmates? Absolutely. Wow, that's awesome. So because you've written because, like you said, about getting your advance is that because you sorry, if I'm Hope I'm not being too personal. Like, no, no, go ask. This is what we should be doing. We should be talking about the business stuff. Yeah, really? Yeah. So did you have to present the idea for the book? And then they were so we really liked this. So we're gonna give you the funds to give you the time and space to create it? Yeah, what often happens is that you'll get sued by Agent took the mother fold out and took it to various publishers, and then the publishers all kind of, you know, I was in the fortunate spot to kind of have a number of bids in from different publishers. So then you kind of talk about it, you talk to everyone and see who's a good fit. And who's let's be very frank, who's got the most money. And at that stage, they'll often say, so people will often get contracted in a two book deal or a three book deal. So they'll say, What have you got next. And hilariously, we were off, and we were doing a trip around Australia to visit our mates who live up in the Kimberley. So we take him through, you know, eight weeks off, put the camper trailer on, we were way out in this remote community had very little phone reception. And I'm trying to like pitch my new book, which I hadn't written a word of. The second book is cut, it's kind of a little bit of this, it's kind of a little bit that so that's often what happens is that you kind of pitch a concept or, and some people really don't like being contracted, like some writers will say, Oh, the pressure of having a contract hanging over my head for the next book is too much. I can't write like that. I'm a bit of a deadline person. So I kind of like it. Having said that, I've already missed my deadline. So that's that's the way things go to. So I wanted to ask you about your podcast. Yes. The first time. It's funny. Do you get this a lot when people google it, they think it's about something else? Yes, yes. Yes, we do. We do. And in fact, there is another one which is about the which came after us. And of course, now we've now it's hilarious, because it's we're forcing we're about to start our fifth season next year. And we've also now you know, I'm up to publishing my third book, Katherine's publishing her second book. So the premise at the start was that it was about the first time you publish a book. And because Catherine was about to publish her, so we chat to each other about all the things you know, what do you do for a launch? The kinds of questions you're asking as well, like, how do you find an agent, you know, what's meant to cost? As well as interviewing Australian writers about their kind of the first time they published a book and what they've learned since which is, which has been nice. Yeah, cool. So you're gonna change the show to the third time that you've heard? Yeah, I know, we were like the first and subsequent times. And now we've got such a brand that I feel like we can't change it. But this year, or next year, we're actually going to, we're hoping to focus we got some really kind of, I talked to Maggie Chipstead, US writer who was shortlisted for the Booker Prize this year, and, you know, getting Helen Garner to speak, you know, we've kind of been begging our friends in the first season to like, Well, you talk to us to now. You know, all these books arrive every day the publishers are out. We get pitches all the time, we can't possibly fit on everyone who, you know, we've been asked to have. So it's this real switch. But you know, a bit like you I think I just I'm, I'm so obsessed and curious about how other people do the thing that they do and how they manage To make it work, and I'm like a bow burden. So I saw I still little bits of everyone's processes and ideas. And, and I just think it's incredibly, it's incredibly interesting. It's incredibly interesting to have those conversations with people. And, and also, I don't think I realized Katherine actually was at an event the other night, and she messaged me afterward. And she said, people really listened to us, like people really came up and said, like, it's really helpful. I really, you know, your voice is so familiar. And I think the beauty now of podcasting, and you would know this is that it feels you know, you forget that however, many people are going to download it later. And you just, you're very, you're sitting often now in your own home, and you're very intimate, and you're very frank. And then you forget sometimes, what you've said, when someone comes up to you are random, and oh, I loved what you said about this about your marriage. I'm like, shit, and I say that. But yeah, you know, I I've become, yeah, I've become really digital. I mean, my dream, my dream is that I get to write books. And then someone on the ABC gives me a show. And I can just talk to creatives about what they do. You know, and someone can pay me to do it. That's the That's the dream. Really, let's be frank Ellison. That is, that's my train. That's what I want to happen. That is so good. I love that anyone listening for the AV? Yeah. Give us by the show. I found the same thing. I, I found that mostly why I started this is I needed to find out other people's opinions on how not necessarily how to do the physical stuff. Because everyone's so different in there are different, you know, requirements or whatever, but how to change my perception about stuff because I was finding I was getting really challenged, being interrupted and that kind of thing, like, you know, having to having to look at things in a different way and needing to for my own sake, because it was I was just going to have to stop creating, because I just was too wound up and too, you know, almost resentful. That sounds horrible. Yes. But yeah, so I've really enjoyed hearing how other people do it how how they think about things. Yes. And how they, how they still meet their needs, but not at the expense of their own mothering. Yeah, so yeah, I've just love it. I think it's the range too, don't you think Allison that like I am? Have you read the divided heart? Oh, I interview? Yes. You have you? Yes, of course you did. You interviewed Rachel. That's how I knew about your podcast. You know, like, that was such a profound book. For me. I got that really early because someone recommended it to me. And then since then, I've read lots of this and and right, who's a writer, her extraordinary book on being a mother and all this, there's heaps, there's heaps and, and often you're drawn to those ones, too. Like I read all of them, for people who aren't parents as well. But I think it's the range of going, well, this person did it like that. And then this person didn't like that. It's so permission giving when you go, okay, I can be away from my children, and do my work that way. Or I can do it amidst the interruptions. And I can write a chapter on my phone while I'm doing, you know, there's no right way to do it. And I think in the end, sometimes I worry about my obsession with reading about other people's process, but then I'm like, no, because the more you read, the more expensive your idea of what it can be is. And yeah, so I'm totally there with you. It's made my practice so much better. And which is why it's so important that you know, and so amazing in such a generous kind of actor that you that you do this podcast, too, I think because it is. It's that talking about the unspoken or which, which, you know, there were there were people. Yeah, there were definitely people who, who let me know, I'll always remember a gorgeous friend, Amy, who messaged me on day three and said you might start crying today. And that's okay. And I have since then, I have always sent that message to people, you know, to because I was like, that was so incredibly helpful, that she told me that, you know, and then and I think that there is this act of and you have to know when to say it because you don't want to burst that gorgeous, pregnant, first time pregnancy bubble either for people but the sharing of stories and the way that women in particular share stories. What a lifeline that is. Oh, that's that's happened. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more and I think the rise of Social media of this showing this perfection this, you know, this beautiful staged photo like we're talking about the Christmas tree, you know? Yeah. Is that really reality? You know? Or if you've got that Christmas tree hidden in a different room where no one can tell you why can't we just be honest with each other and just getting rolled out like don't be afraid to, to share and I think that would help so much not just in, like what we've talked about, but also like the whole mental health thing like actually saying, Yeah, I had a lot of trouble. And now I'm going to use that to help everybody else. Yeah, it's just so powerful. And it's not incredibly ashamed often scared of and embarrassed about, you know, it's laugh and it's reality. And the more we talk about it, the better. No, absolutely. I get a bit precious I think sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And scared, scared. Scared of how scared of what people will think, you know, I can say this as a 40 something year old, but there's no way I would have said this 20 years ago, you know, yeah, like we're talking right back at the beginning about this judgment. Yeah, absolutely. What he has to start thinking like a 40 year old woman. Yes, we actually, oh, that's. So basically, I was gonna ask, what you've got coming up. I've actually got a couple of, I've got some great workshops that I'm teaching in the new year in 2022. And the first one is a kind of a kicking off your creative year. So it's for writers Victoria, I'll send you through the details. But it's a full day online workshop. So people can do it from wherever they are in Australia. And we're looking at it's for emerging, or mid I think it can be for anyone really, but just looking at ways to kind of really kick off the year going, how am I going to make space for my creative work in whatever kind of situation that I'm in that my my work and my family is in? And how I'm going to do that. So that is that's really fun. And yeah, people I mean, people can find I try and keep up to date on socials, I'm having a bit we're having our three weeks at the beach offline, which I'm just so excited and thrilled about. So January's always off. But yeah, podcasts new podcast season, coming up with the first time and then lots of lots of little events in the New Year as well. So and then the book eventually. You know what, now that now that I've spoken to you, I'm gonna read your books. And a big thing for me because I love that well, and you know, if you're if you are into audiobooks, I can highly recommend although I haven't listened to it myself, because it's just too weird and hard to do. But the gorgeous Claudia Karvan read the mother fault for Audible. Yeah, or audio book or whatever. And I got to talk to her quite a bit. She's really into it. And everyone who I know who's read it that way, has loved it. So that might be a way that works for you. That is definitely something I can do. Thank good. That's okay. That's it's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you. So, so lovely speaking to you, Allison. I feel like that's like been a debrief as well as just a little therapy session. Thank you as Digby, it was lovely to meet you, too. Are you in the middle of your first publishing experience long to get a deal for already been there and want to know how others experienced it? Maybe you're a writer, a reader, a lover of Australian fiction, this podcast is for you. Here's the deal. Adams first book, the helpline is hitting shelves in Australia very soon. And she has got some questions. Like how do I plan a launch party? What else should I expect? In the Green Room? If I get invited to a festival? Will I get invited to a festival? What if I get invited to a festival and no one shows up? Like my day job? Is my life gonna change? What does it feel like to have a bad review? Do I need to get my nails done to match my book cover? Should I be on Twitter more? And even though my first book skylarking came out a couple of years ago, and I can give Katherine some advice already has lots of our experiences that are vastly different. So we thought we'd cast the net a little wider. And ask some other Australian writers about that first time. I just ticked that box novel and started this incredible adventure. It's great to have a deadline to work towards you know, there's this tendency to obviously procrastinate or not even procrastinate. Just keep reworking and reworking and never really deciding that it's finished never pressing them and I distinctly remember the moment I got the idea for what With become the first novel, that moment is vivid in my mind full of those things had a choice, I write the story down or I go completely mad that first shortlisting that you get is just this amazing validation. And for some reason, it tends to happen when you're at your lowest point. And it always just kind of buoys you up, and allows you to keep going. There's three parts to being an artist of any sort, there's talent, there's hard work, and the third one ever forgets as luck, good luck, the lucky chance comes and you're not ready for your lucky chance, you're not gonna make it either. In each episode, we'll ask a writer to come clean on all the fields and the logistics of their first time, and will hone in on advice on a particular aspect of the publishing process. I'll also ask Catherine to update us on where she's at with her own adventure into the world of a debut novelist. Whether it's chatting to her editor, getting her social sorted, or speaking to an audience of booksellers, we are taking a bit of a risk here. We want to take you behind the scenes of the hype, and the instant deliciousness of the debut Experience and find out all the lows along with the highs. We're asking our guests to be candid, and to give us the warts and all of how it feels. And we don't know how it's gonna play out. But Katherine, Will her book end up on billboards at the airport? Will she hit the coveted top 10 On release? Will Hollywood come knocking? Or will As one writer attests the experience all be a little anticlimactic? subscribe via iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts and check out our website, the first time podcast.com or connect with us via Twitter and Instagram at the first time pod. And let us know about your first time and the questions you want answered. We look forward to getting into your ears. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Rosie Rutherford British clarinettist and freelance musician S2 Ep32 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Rosie Rutherford, a clarinettist, composer, freelance musician and educator from Darby in the British Midlands, and a mum of 3 children. Rosie grew up in a musical household with her father and sisters being quite musical, she started on the keyboard at 5, piano at 6 and clarinet at 8 - after there being no flutes available at her school. Rosie studied at the Royal Birmingham Conservatoire , playing in the Folk ensemble, and later met her husband Jamie. She formed a trio with Jamie on guitar and violinist Ning-ning Li called Threaded. They are at their core a folk band, but take their influences from all types of music. They’ve released 3 albums- of what we spoke (2016) Fair Winds & Following Seas (2017), When The Raven Comes Calling (2019) Threaded was commissioned to create the musical score for Red Earth Deaf Accessible Theatre performances in 2018 for Soon Child. going on a live theatre tour around the UK before covid hit. In the past months they have been involved with another show with Red Earth Theatre, The Red Tree. which came out virtually in January 2022. They have also created 5 music videos incorporating Sign Song for the deaf community which you can watch here - https://www.threadedmusic.com/sign-song Rosie also runs Teenie Tempos, a parent and baby/toddler music group based in Derby. Red Earth Theatre https://redearththeatre.com/ Podcast - instagram / website Threaded's music is used throughout this episode with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks for tuning in. My guest today is Rosie Rutherford. Rosie plays the clarinet. She is a composer, a freelance musician and an educator from Darby in the British Midlands in the UK, and a mum of three children. Rosie grew up in a very musical household with her father and sisters all playing instruments, and she started on the keyboard at age five, piano age six and clarinet at age eight. After there were no flutes available at his school. Rosie studied at the Royal Birmingham Conservatoire, playing in the folk ensemble, and she later met her husband Jamie, who also attended the same Conservatoire. She formed a trio with Jamie on guitar meaningly on the violin, and herself, called threaded. They are at their core a folk band but take the influences from all types of music. They have released three albums of what we spoke in 2016, fair winds and following seas in 2017. And when the Raven comes calling in 2019. testable theaters performance of soon child in 2018 and went on a live theater tour throughout the UK with the show before COVID hit. In the past months they have been involved with another show with radio theater called the red tree, which came out virtually in January 2022. They've also created five music videos incorporating sign songs for the deaf community, which you can find through the links in the show notes if you're interested in watching. Rosie also runs teeny tempos a parent and baby toddler Music Group based in Darby. I hope you enjoy our chat. It's a pleasure to have you. Thanks so much for coming on. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. So it's nice to have have a good natter isn't it about all things moms? Absolutely. It's so enjoyable. Whereabouts are you? What's What town are you? Darby? Yeah, so in East Midlands Oh, very good. Yeah. So as you mentioned, it's very misty and, you know, a bit sort of Sunday morning ish there. What, what sort of what's the weather like, there is cold and you know, horrible winter, what's what's going on there is absolutely freezing. It was funny during over the year, it was actually fairly warm. I think it's one of the most warmest years on record. And I thought oh, this will be alright. I can cope with them. And then last week, it was just like really freezing and icy. Yeah, yeah, I'm not I don't mind the cold. I like cold if it's crisp. You know, if you've got the nice bright sunshine. Yeah, but it's just a misty and you drive in and you're like, or can't actually see anything two cars in front of me. And I think the problem with weather here is it's just it changes so fast. So you can't ever you know, cold is absolutely fine. And snow is fine and hot sun is fine. I think it just always takes your body a while to acclimatized to it. So if it just happens really fast. You just feel like a sore all the time. You just like going on. It's like it's catching up with what's going on. And then it changes again and then you've got today here it's been what 30 Probably got up to 32 Today your associates. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so not Yeah. summer's day here. It's been beautiful like, oh, sorry, I shouldn't say. I could just pretend although I said the other day, I spoke to a lady who was in Canada and she had snow. And I was like, so jealous because I've never skied. I've looked at I've seen snow and I've touched it, but I've never actually been to the snow. So I'm like, Oh my gosh, that'd be awesome. As my sleep comes the same playing field across my chest, and the softness All right, so tell me about your music. I've discovered you as a, of course. That white thing that you're playing, it looks like a storm true for wind Institute. It's like, can you tell us about what you play with the proper names of things? Not like the Stormtrooper instrument? Yeah, no. So I'm a I'm a clarinetist is my is my main thing. And so I play clarinet, bass clarinet. But I also play all the woodwinds as, as a protective music teacher and stuff like that. So the Stormtrooper instrument, which is a discord and electronic wind instrument, which for a project that I'm working on at the moment, has to try and get my fingers around it so we can use it to because it's, it uses MIDI, so it can import into the computer. So it's the same thing. Dreams is a saxophone. It's just like electronic saxophone, but, but it has like the same functions as a keyboard. So you can you can have all these different all these different sounds. So it's proper novelty. So just for like having when I get a minute to have a little go and find another different different core sounding things. I can I can play yeah, so it is cool, but it's really it's really crazy instruments really strange. I've been enjoying watching a little Instagram, little posts you put up when you're finding all the different settings and this one sounds like like you've been sucked through vortex or something. So cool. It is. And I thought because I got it literally at the start of December just landed on my mat. And I was like, right, so I'll try and be festive. We're trying to a different Christmas carol every single day on it, then um, it gives me a chance to like play every day, but it's very, I don't have to commit much time to because that's always the problem, isn't it? Like is you want to do something every day but actually finding the time to commit that and I was like a Christmas carol. I can probably do. I still didn't manage every day, but I managed most days. Think I've got through a lot of the core settings. Yeah. It's good fun. It's like yeah, into discovering what what all the buttons do. Yeah, that's it. So how did you get into music? Have you always been musical? Did you grew up in a musical household? Yeah, I think so. So my dad plays. He's a he's a blues man. So he's a guitarist and harmonica player. But actually, when I was a child, he didn't he plays a bit of guitar but he didn't kind of gig or anything like that. So I think we just we just always got into music. me I've got two sisters. And we're always quite musical. And yeah, so I think I started playing the I think I started on the keyboard when I was about five and then did piano at six and then I picked up the clarinet when I was eight. Yeah, right. Do you remember why you went to the clarinet? Was there a sort of something that drew you to this is one of those questions that is like so so I want to play the flute but they didn't have any in school. So I want clarinet sure did around No. Oh, my second choice. Now I'm so glad I'm actually so glad because the character is like I just thought Do you love it? And it's so me. So it was meant to be there was meant to be no flutes left that was always meant to happen. Yeah. Have you ever gone back and tried to play the flute? Has that ever been something you've tried? Yeah, so what do I do now? Yeah, not not like not that well, but um, is it you know, but I can play it well enough to double on it and then I can teach it I can teach it so. Yeah, so I do play it and it is really nice as well but it isn't the current app. So it's alright. It's funny how things work out isn't it? How many other instruments do you play? Mainly so clarinet and bass clarinet kind of my main things and then I play a bit flute player play sax, and I've tried to get into the whistle so absolutely love Yeah, I love the Irish we're so big fake lover. So during the lockdown I was trying to get a little bit better at that. And but it's like everything once you start delving in a little bit, it's just becomes it's just a minefield and there's and then you want to be able to do everything and amazingly you don't you and you're like well if I'm gonna say that I'm doing this then I have to be able to do this. But it's just a complete like it's just a whole life time of musical knowledge to fit into learning a new thing so it's Work in Progress see your glances involving a Tree Yard quote. Fred is telling you say threaded is it's, I guess it's like my little baby in terms of musical stuff. So it's me my husband Jamie on guitar and then our friend lighning who plays violin. And we got together. We all studied at Birmingham, Conservatoire, Royal Birmingham Conservatoire as it is now. So and they're all and we all did classical music degrees, performance degrees on our instruments. And we played in a big, massive folk group, they're called Joe Biden's conservative folk ensemble, which is amazing. It's, I mean, it differs in numbers, but it's around 60 people. And you know, and we do the festival circuit and everything. And it's just all like, it's amazing. You should absolutely check out check out Conservatorio contemplate screen, it's still going. And every because it's a it's used. The people that are in Conservatoire, and then the personnel changes kind of, sometimes yearly, sometimes every four years, but it's, it's grown over the past 20 odd years. It's brilliant. And we and we played there and that kind of spot, I've always referred music, because like, like I said, my dad's been a blues man. And he and my mom have always been into music. So always growing up growing up around it. But funnily, in a clarinetist, I kind of thought I can't play folk music as a kid, you know, because it's such a classical. Well, I think it's either a classical or jazz journey that you take with an instrument like the clarinet because you think, Oh, the clarinet, so and because of the teachers and the era, they live and the I guess the pathways that are open to you to start studying, it was straight. Classical, is the path that I took. And so you kind of think, oh, you know, I can't really play folk music on the clarinet. It's not a folk instrument. So although I loved it, I didn't really do much on it until I got to college. And then because we had the folk ensemble, and I was like, Oh, this is great. Learn to do some tunes, and, and things. And then, and obviously, when you start then exposing yourself to this new world of all this free music, you kind of think, well, folk music actually. Like it's the music of the people. It's our music. This is what I love play. I love it. And so me and Jamie and Nunes because we love playing together anyway. We just thought we're going to create our own group and, and we're just going to play our own music. So the great thing about Fred it is that it's all devised. We generally one of us will bring a tune or a song and then we just get together. We turn it into a piece and and it's all original stuff. So it it's so it's really beautiful. Like it's beautiful for us because you know it takes that creative box because you just don't and you've got this outlet. And it's a safe place as well, because we're all, you know, we're all on the same page. So it's nice and easy. So, yeah, I feel really, really lucky to kind of have that place to just be creative with people that you can bounce off so easily. Yeah, so that's kind of where it came from. So we were like, we're not really focused. We don't really know what we are to be honest. Like, we're developing, I guess it's developing all the time, but kind of started with like, folk influence, but it's definitely like, we take influences and inspiration from everywhere and everything. So yeah, that's good. Yeah. And it must feel good to like, I've got two things I want to ask you, just from what you said, but the first thing is like to have, like you said, how it's a safe space. Like you can go there with your ideas and not feel like judged. You can play the thing you want to play and not feel like everyone's going, Oh, that's no good. You know, if you have that trust with each other, that you can play something and not feel scared or, you know, yeah, I don't know what the word is. I'm trying to intimidate. Yeah, that's what I'm going. Yeah, you feel really good to be able to share stuff and be honest with each other. And, yeah, that's it. And also, you know, that you know, that whatever you bring will, like we I don't know, it's like, because I think we do, I mean, obviously, I'm play. But recently, I've been doing a lot more composing and songwriting for various other things as well, not just threaded, but the great thing is that, whatever you see, whatever we seem to bring, we managed to make something work out. Even if it's completely different by the end of the session, then it is the start. But it's like that having everyone's kind of collective voices in there. Just always, we think, yeah, it just feels so easy. Because that it's such a positive experience. Always, you know, whatever you bring, and then you get to the end of it, you're like, oh, this, this has made this really great thing. Now that's, and you feel quite satisfied at the end. So yeah, I feel very lucky to have that place to be able to be creative. Absolutely, um, I've thought of something else to ask you. I'll come back to that. So do you guys do? Maybe COVID? You know, been annoying. But do you guys do a lot of live shows with the music? Or is it mainly recorded stuff that you chose? Um, well, pre pandemic? Yeah, so when we first started, and I guess for the first chunk of our time together, it's just kind of, we were just doing lots of like, mainly live stuff. So kind of small art centers festival type stuff, because I think that's where our musics best suited. And then in 2018, we got commissioned to work with this company called Red a theater. We do differ decibel performances. And so we wrote the score for a show with them and their show soon child, which was amazing. So that was kind of our first commission. So and then we did a live theater tour around the UK with them as onstage musicians and actors. Yeah. And then, and then it was pandemic hit. So when, but in between that we did three albums as well. So I think the first album was out in 2016, I want to say and then 27 teen and then 2019 was when we did the last album, which was the music from seeing child that we recorded. Yeah. Yeah. And then since then, since pandemic, obviously we've done a couple of live shows. But we because I mean me and Jamie are married so that's quite easy we can we can work and well I say it's easy next not easy with having we also have three children but that's another story that we can you know when we've got stuff we can create and write in evenings, but nothing slips in Birmingham. So it's not too far distance it's about four to five minutes but obviously we were all in lockdown as you guys were as well. I think we couldn't get together for quite a long time. So yeah, so we've done a lot we've tried to put a few things together last year just online just kind of over the Instagram to do some stuff but we haven't. So this year we're hoping that we're going to be able to do a lot more we did a reason we did we did something last year which we got some funding for which was turning so off the back of soon child like I said read out there to the Deaf accessible. They did deaf accessible theater so we and what we did with them with our songs is worked with science on directors and used a lot of science song in it so all of their shows is integrated in BSL to British Sign Language. So the actors are sign as well as talk so then when we did it when we put the songs in they are they were all signed in and off the back of that we kind of thought, you know, like, it gives an extra layer to our music, which we've never had before, like this visual element. And it's beautiful sign song is absolutely beautiful, because not only is it a language, and it's obviously a communication tool, but it's also just like this form of, it's just almost like dance with the performance when it's so beautiful. And so that that enhances the music so much, actually. And we kind of thought, Oh, well, we want to, once you've also kind of connected with the deaf community, we were like, We want to be doing this all the time, like the inclusion is just, it's just so important. So we've started trying to work and make find ways to make our music more accessible. So we've developed like, threaded, which is still going started the three of us, but we've kind of got a tangent as well called the threaded collective. And with that we're doing lots of different projects, working with other artists. So one of them is going to be the Deaf accessibility and music and how we can work and develop that and work with some deaf performance. It's not doing the sign song with us and things like that. So we're hopefully got a couple of festivals in the summer already. And we're going to work on developing that. So yeah, it's amazing. It's kind of all doing this. And you're just like, oh, I never expected that this would finish here. But that's where it's going. And we're just gonna go with it. Yeah, amazing. I've never heard of sign song before. Is that like, how did you said, signing? Two songs that don't have lyrics? Or like, how does it? Can you explain? Yeah, so I mean, I'm no expert. But it's mainly it's it's just Deaf, Deaf people, interpretation of the songs, so and how they sign it. So. And therefore, the beauty of it is that everyone's interpretation might be slightly different. So you can obviously some will do a literal translation. And but then sometimes, obviously, songs songs are really interesting, aren't they? Because obviously, a lot of songs are metaphors. And though you use metaphors within the songs, or the song is a metaphor for something else, or it's emotive, so when you're when we're working with them, with the science on performers, often it's talking about the context of it, what you mean by that line, and then they will interpret it, I guess, like any will, it's like any translation is if you translate in a book, but they'll work on it. So the signing that they do isn't necessarily like literal signing, it's all trying to create the metaphor. So it's so it's just this whole thing is just as beautiful performance, because it's just that everything working together. It's just amazing. That seems to be able to create music that can become a part of that. Do you know what I mean? Really, really? Absolutely. I'm gonna do some Googling when we get get off here, because that sounds amazing. Yeah, a whole new thing I've I've never known. Yeah. Yeah. Well, within theater, the accessible theater is becoming quite rightly, much bigger here. So there is a lot more access. And I think the UK really working on it. And but in music, sometimes, you know, there's been some performances, there's been some stuff that's on festivals and Glastonbury, they had a big, big thing, there was a signer with a wrap up, but still, it's not it that we've got so far. We need to go the long way to go. So yeah, it's we feel like quite strongly, it's important. And it's a way that that so many people could quite easily add this access level in a beautiful way. And then, you know, and it's just and it's just like, it's amazing to watch and it means you're including so many more people within your performance. So it's really good. Yeah, well done. That's wonderful. I love that wage, roll up your brain pole to get not far to go on what I was gonna ask before, what's it like working so closely with your husband? Basically. It's actually amazing. I think our relationship it came from being musical together I think. So. I think we're at we're often at our best as a couple when we are being creative together. I think we probably find that things are more strained when we're not getting the opportunity and it's just home after you know what I mean. So when because Because yeah, so much of it is so much of I guess why we love being together is being creative, and I definitely feel like much better music session with him. And I think because instrumentally dynamically because he's a guitarist. So any tune i i write or any kind of like songs he will be like. And then it kind of makes it like quite quickly being on that same wavelength. Whereas I didn't necessarily have the scale to be like, I know exactly how I'm going to accompany this. Jamie will be like, this sounds good. And I'm just like, yes, that is what I was aiming for. So yeah, it's actually really nice. But obviously, with having the family it has become a much bigger juggle for us to be able to work together. In terms of like childcare and other logistics, so at the moment, he's working. So the, the theatre company, Red Earth, which we did scene child with, me and Jamie, right, have worked on the music for their next show, which she is currently rehearsing called the red tree, which is a book by shot and it's beautiful picture book. And so we've written the music together, or like the main terms of music, some of it, he'll divide in the process. But originally, we were both kind of going to be on it in stage, but then I had my third little baby in August. So I haven't been able to do the tour. And that's going to be live streamed at the end of the month. So I feel like, I feel like a solo parent. Because normally you work with you're going around each other and it's like I'll do this day he does this day or this evening, and, you know, work around it. Whereas because it's every day, it's Monday to Saturday for the whole month. I'm just like, Yes, I actually have all the admiration for single parents, because I did about three days. And I was like, oh, people do that. The school run. I mean, like, I feel like the school run is harder than having a third child. Like having to be in the same place twice a day and get everyone ready to get out of the house on time. Yeah, that is just that is the kettle of fish do. I was like something. Show me what you've got something. What I can do. So you have three children. How old are your older children? So my daughter Ruby is four. My son is three. And then the little baby Louie is four months old. I love that name. Louisans says Did you meet your husband at like in a music capacity? Do you only ever known each other through music? Yeah, yeah. So we we studied at the same same Conservatoire. But we didn't know each other while we were studying. Because he was here above me. And Qataris Tantek. They kept themselves to themselves classical guitarists that come in for their things. Whereas obviously, the clarinetists you'd be in the orchestra in the band. So I was in a lot more. So I never, I didn't really know him. It wasn't until after we'd finished that through friends and stuff. We met each other. So yeah, so it's weird because we went to the same place, but we have completely different, you know, but before being together, we just have completely different experiences of being there. Which is a bit strange, but you know, it's funny, isn't it? Do you remember seeing him there? Like, did you ever seen you see each other there to remember? I don't really remember. I think I think I did go to one of his projects is major project, but um, but I didn't really know him. Just because we're friends with the painful. Yeah. And then. So it was mainly after we'd finish that we got to know each other. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So every since you got together, we've always played music together, or did it take a bit of time to sort of warm up to the fact that you were going to share this? It was like, instant sort of? Yeah, yeah. It was pretty instant. Pretty instant. So. So yeah, that's always been really nice. It's always been something that we've done, and we've been able to able to do together. And then it's, you know, and and then being able to kind of get together and stuff. It's really nice, because it's almost like date night. Date Night is just going and doing a gig. So it's like working day, but but it is nice. It's like a nice experience. So I feel like we get to share with each other. She's really good. Absolutely. That's lovely. So you talked briefly about how it's a bit tricky with now that you've got the kids with childcare, how to how do you manage if you've got some good support around you? For the kids? Yeah, I'm really lucky so my mum and dad live fairly Place and my sister and Jamie's parents are retired. So they've that when we did the when we did the tour they kind of came down and stayed for a chunk. So we were able to do it. So yeah, I mean we can only we've only been able to facilitate the word being able to tour and stuff because we've got like family and friends support so we are really really lucky. Yeah, it makes all the difference doesn't it really does. Like when you said before about people that do it on their own soul parents I've Yeah, I just don't understand how they do it. I go out of my brain if I was the only one doing this never made that absolutely amazing Absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I will see you. When you I'm interested to ask you this because I'm a singer. That's my background. When you were pregnant with the with each child, did you find it really hard to breathe while you were playing your instrument? Yeah, I think, well, I had I had different pregnancy experiences. So and which affected which affected my play in and I think some of them are more mentally than others. But with with Ruby, my first one I had a really big bleed at 13 weeks. And they never knew why. Yeah. So they were kind of like, you know, take it easy. And I got like tours booked. And in the end, I just had to I couldn't I didn't pay because I was because you know like you have this degree. And it's all tummy muscles isn't it and I was scared to use them because it was like, because they don't know why I've had this. And then so I didn't really play for the first kind of six months. And then I've got some stuff in and I think probably felt a little bit more confident to kind of hit but I still never supported properly, often just playing from here because I was going to use my dummy. And then. And then with Arlo, I think I think I did have some bleeding again. But I think it was really early on. And then I was kind of fine for playing and stuff. So I did quite a lot of work with him. And he that was that felt like generally a much easier pregnancy. But he was got pregnant after nine months after having reap. So I think I was just such in such a sleep deprived state from her because she just didn't sleep until she was about four that I just probably didn't didn't think about I was just in autopilot. So I think I just kind of work through a bit more. And then with live, it's really similar. I had a had a really big bleed at 11 weeks, or just performance, we scan. Really, really it was on the birthday, actually, I'd had a burger were locked down. But we'd ordered this burger I was really excited. And then it started bleeding. And then I had to go to AD. But I knew that was a similar thing to read, like had that gut feeling like that he that it was fine. So I was like I knew it was but it's obviously still terrifying. And then after that, I was a bit like oh, I've been scared. I was scared to play again because I just don't want to put any pressure on you don't want to rupture anything. So yeah, and I felt really tired for a lot of that pregnancy. So that's when I did a bit more whistle playing because it's just not the same type that you just don't have to put the same type of like support on and everything. But then then you don't know whether some of it's just because you know it's their time on your body's tired it's just like you're doing this again. You've got the other two that you're actually got to look after I did lockdown because this you know, you're trying to be so positive and you know, for the kids especially. And but there isn't that much to do either. So you you know you think you're tired because you just like the whole situation is just exhausting, isn't it? The pandemic itself is just so it's exhausting. Just so yeah, yeah. Oh, that's interesting. I always like to ask musicians that are that are in that area that can relate to I had a shocking first pregnancy it was fine. I don't know why but the second one, I don't know. He sat up right on my diaphragm. It was ridiculous. I couldn't breathe to save myself. And that was starting to use up here too much putting too much strain on my on my actual, you know, in my voice and I had to give up a few gigs was like I can't actually project anymore. This is you know, there's nothing I can and the problem is you you feel really bad because you did you know Like, you don't want to cancel stuff anyway, because you know, you pregnant you're absolutely candid, but you don't know until the time d that actually this this isn't and it can change so quickly. Yeah, I was kind of Alright, doing this. And then I got to about seven months, and I was like, I literally have no space that I can do. So yeah, yeah. It's a funny thing, isn't it? Good on him? Day to day with the kids now, do you basically set time of an evening just to work on your music with your husband? Yeah, generally, generally. I mean, when when we've had commissions, like when we were working on the theater stuff, we did block out days to do it. And, and the same when we were working on the collective stuff last year, we would we blocked out days to do it. But when we've been in lockdown, obviously, we haven't been able to use the chat we had, we couldn't use the childcare at some point of it. So then it would have to be evenings. So in the summer, it's alright, because you still feel like you have like evening time, but in the winter, it doesn't, it doesn't mean that you don't end up getting very much done. The kids are in bed, and it's like half past eight, nine o'clock. And then you're like, right, we've got to have dinner. And then we've got to try. And we've got to try and create. So I think I think it depends on what we're creating for as well. Like if it's commission stuff. Because there's a brief and it's kind of got to get done, you can be a bit more pragmatic about it, it's like, well, you know, if we are doing the evenings, we'll commit three or four evenings to it. And we will get it done in that time, because that's the time. Whereas if it's our own stuff, like if it was just kind of like more. So if we take the threaded or stuff about rain, then you can be a little bit more like, well, we'll just get together in an evening and have a bit of a jam and see what happens. And that's a lot. I feel like that the winter months are never that good for that type of thing. For me, I think fat. And I don't know whether it is just because I'm so brain dead by the time it gets to the I can't I can't think and also a lot of a lot of creating on my instrument. It's just playing. So it's a lot of improvising and seeing what comes out of improvising. And the current house isn't that big. So you can't really do that. When the kids are in bed loudly. And in the winter. In the summer. We've got we've got a conservator on the back so you can kind of go in there. And it's warm. But in the winter, it's actually freezing because the Conservatives the court really typically delivery very much just ended up not doing a lot which was probably the attic. But I think if you're trying to be creative, if it's your job and you've got to write stuff on top, then it's like any job isn't it? You've got to get it done. So you will find find the time and the space. But I think if it's for me, I have to be in the right frame of mind to do it. And yeah, and in the right space for it to for it to be enjoyable. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And and that's the thing, like if you're forcing it, it's you're not you're creative. tivity is not going to come you could because you're just like, Oh, I've got to do it and nothing's going to come when you put pressure on yourself like that. Like, like you said, you need the time to just fiddle about and see what comes out on. Yeah, absolutely. Oh. What's your thoughts about mum guilt? I think that I feel like we shouldn't have it. But I think so many of us do. And I think even if, from people I spoke to and friends and everything, and I think and I think it's like anything, I think it's, I think it just stems because you care, and you want to make the right choices. And I think for your children, and I think as mums. I don't know you kind of there's this thing, isn't there anything that you do for yourself? It's at the expense of doing it for your children. And that isn't, but it isn't. But I think we'd have to go through that process, don't we? And it seems, seems that lots of people have to, you know, go kind of through this process and find, find out how you're going to work and what you need to do. And what you would class is something that makes you feel bad, and something that makes you not feel bad. So I think it's different for everybody. I know, I've definitely had it, I get it a lot. I think it's, but I know I shouldn't have it. Because a lot of it is like work. It's because I've because, you know, if you're gonna go and do something for work, then you feel bad, because you're like other kids are being having to go so this person isn't going to this person, but then you need to earn a living. So yeah, then you can't have the quality of life that they're gonna have if if you don't earn any money. So yeah, I think it's really it's really interesting. And I feel like now my attitude towards it has developed after like being on my third child, because I know, when I just had Ruby, you know, kind of anything feel really, really bad. And I wouldn't, I'd be like, Oh, no, I can't do anything for myself, I can't go for a run because the house is a mess. And I've got to do this, I've got to do the washing and everything before I do this little thing myself. And now, I'm a bit like, well, if I want to play my bass clarinet for 10 minutes, the house has missed and I'm just going to do it because I only have one life and it's not fair and everyone else that I'm resentful because I don't get to do it. Because actually, it's my choice. But it's taken, you know, it's taken a long time for me to kind of get to that point of that I will do that. I still haven't been out the house for a run yet. anyone to do anything because it because you know, it's like, well, if I've got if I have got half an hour for me, then what am I going to do with it? If I was to have if I was to probably have longer than that and start feeling a bit like, oh, I probably should be doing this and probably shouldn't be doing that. Yeah, and you know, I'm taking on gigs and things and I When Ruby was little we did a lot more gigging because it was the, you know, the other side of the pandemic. So things were actually booked in. And I didn't feel bad about that, because I didn't everything was booked beforehand. And I didn't know and I think I just struggled leaving. But I think when there are as I don't know, I think you know, like, once you've gone through it, you know, they're going to be fine as well. You know, when that it's always worth thinking of what, what's it gonna be like? Whereas, you know, it is always okay. So yeah, yeah, with that benefit of experience, then you know, that your your next two children, it's actually going to be fine. We'll be fine. Yeah. But it is hard. Because, you know, I think everyone feels guilty to some degree. I think people just have different. Some people and people feel different, like guilty about different things, don't they? And for some people, their guilt might stem from work related. So for some people, it might stem from like socializing, they feel like they shouldn't go out and have a drink because or see their friends. Because you know that because the children have their bedtime routine. And, and yeah, I think everyone will have something that they struggle with in terms of mum Gill. But, yeah, yes, finding the balance. I think that's so true. Because I think it's yeah, the balance of like, I think you still need to do something for yourself. Like, you can't just be a mum all the time, you actually still have to be yourself and especially, you know, with your husband, you still have to have that relationship. And it's a funny thing, like when you have kids, it's like, I don't know, this is expectation that your whole world has to completely stop and revolve around the kids which is fair enough for for a period of time like it has to because they're so little and they can't do anything but I think it's a no from what I'm finding talking to different mums through this. It's like well, there's a point when you actually go hang on a sec. I'm still me and I actually want to go do stuff that I did before. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really important for for your children to See you? And I think them's. I mean, we notice it loads with Ruby because she, with, with coming from a very musical household, she's now like, she's so into it. And we haven't, you know, for a while, like, would you want to do this? And she'd be like, No, I don't want you to show me how to do that. I do it my way, when we can have gotten your clarinet, and I'd be like, because kids want me to, I don't want you to show me I just want to do it, which is like, you know, fair enough. But now she's gonna, which is making a pro songs, and she's doing all this stuff. And she's only four. But, but I think, for me, I want her to see me go, you know, especially for as a as a woman that I can, I can still be an artist, and I can be a performing musician, and I can do this, and I can still have a family, and be a present mom, but be still be creative. And be me because, you know, that's, you want, I don't know, like, that's, I feel, I feel proud, I guess that I'm managing to juggle these plates, because I always wanted to be be a musician. And, you know, and it's tough. There's lots of tough elements about it. And, you know, a lot of people feel that they can't balance a family and be a musician, because, because it, you know, you end up having to turn down so much work because of various things. And I think, you know, if they can still see if your kids can still see you being you that's, that's really good for them to know that or they could, you know, they can still have the life that they want to do. And, yeah, I think it's, I think it's really nice and also have an understanding that time is that their time is or that your time is split, but over things that are important, you know, and especially our, whatever your artistic discipline, that's something that you've worked at, usually your whole life, or, you know, from an age of being able to do it, you know, with dance or art or whatever, and you've committed so many hours that just because, you know, you decide to take on the responsibility in whatever capacity of being a parent, you don't stop. That doesn't stop, because that's part of who you are. And so I think it's important is for your children to see that that time still happens in time still exists, like I still have to practice because otherwise, if I get a call to go and do a gig, I can't if my lips not in I'm not going to be able to do it. So, but it's not at the expense of time with them. Yeah, it's, it's just part of our daily life and routine. And so yeah, I do think that that's important. But I'm only kind of starting to, like, put that time and now you know, it's taken me a while of not feeling bad for doing practice, even though I believe that I shouldn't feel bad for doing it. And I have to do it. It's still, you know, it's still actually doing it. But yeah, it is good. Yeah, I love that. I love the way you describe that. Because that's like, that's how I feel. It's like, I think it's wonderful. Especially, I mean, I don't have any girls, but for my boys to see, you know, the woman who if they end up with a woman that they, you know, that becomes a mother should their children, but she still does all the things that she did before she had kids, you know, it's just in your slotted into your life, like you said, you you're practicing your you know, it's part of what you do, and your children see you do that, which is just, I love that it is so wonderful. Yeah, I love it. And I think you know, like, for, for our kids as well, we're definitely noticing that they, they all seem to love. Like either whether it's performing or I think kids kids respond to what they're exposed to, don't they so but as they're always making up songs now, even though their three year old, he's really started to get into the dispersing in and they'll be they'll be doing that payment, these payments, dinosaurs and he's making up songs. And you think that's just because it's exposure, and I'm sure it's like, you know, all children or children are sponges, aren't they. So whatever you do in your house, your children will pick it up. And whatever. So I think that's the thing, whatever it is that you love, and you want for any mom, even if they're not, if it's not art, if it's you know, yoga or, or climbing, or whatever it is that you want to do is kind of your hobby, if the kids can see it, that they absorb it. It's something that that often it can be something you end up doing together because they think oh, my mom is this, I'm interested in it. mom or dad's doing this. And that's what we've kind of found with ours, whatever it is, we're kind of doing that they want to do. And then you end up still being able to do the thing that you love and you do it with them. I my husband really loves drawing. And he's always drawn and he's you know, he's really good at drawing but it's just something that he does for himself and he really enjoys it and so the kids are annual sit and draw with the kids. And so their art is amazing. Well, me I know I'm so it's my kids, but I think that there is really, it's really brilliant. But I'm just like since they've been able to hold a pen you sat there and drawn with them. And so that's something that they are really like to do. I mean so then when I I see it and if we, you know, draw it or whatever, and I'll draw, they're just like, Oh, what's that meant to be mommy? Daddy's is better, just like, I'm trying. No, but they do they just pick it up so much that I think it is important, therefore, for them to see you doing things that you enjoy. Yeah, it just becomes a part of life. It's like, it's not a sure thing. That it's like, Okay, now, we're now done going to do this, but it's just incorporated in your life. It's just what you do. Yeah, I love that. That's this beautiful, that's so good. How did you feel then this, I like this concept of identity about how we view ourselves as a woman, then we have children, you know, how do we see ourselves? Did you sort of have a concept of your own identity change when you became a mom, I don't know, you know, I don't know whether it really has. If I think about it, like, I still feel like I'm really easy. And I'm very lucky, because I've got the same friends, I haven't. And a lot of my friends from school, we all move back to the same place. So we all kind of went out to study, whatever we did at university, and then we've all kind of come back to the same place. So I've got a lot of the same friends, a few of them have also had children at the same time. And all my friends from studying at college, still fairly close with them. And I think I've still I've been very lucky that I've been able to be facilitated to still work. And so I kind of feel like I don't think I've changed. Does that make sense? It does. I don't feel any different. I think I just, I just Yeah, I think I don't feel any different. I have literally got more responsibilities, but I think I try and yeah, it's yeah, I'm not putting words in your mouth. But it's almost like, because you've got this musical practice, which is endemic to you, and you've got the relationship with your husband, who's also got the music, it's like, you're able just to bring the children into your world. And continue with that, what you had, and the children and sort of they have joined into your world, and you'll still be able to maintain who you are without any sort of like, oh, I have to give this up, or I have to do this. Now whatever. I think so. I think and I'm very lucky that I guess I'm surrounded by people that have supported that. And being with with me and my husband both being artists, you know, that has challenges, you know, it because it's not like often, often, for other friends who are artists, they're married to someone who has got a stable job. And not that not all artists are stable, but we're freelancers so it is up and down. So one of them, you know, so they can be they can kind of project work that they want, but they know if they're gonna if they're going to have a family or whatever, there's going to be a stable income coming in nine to five sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. Whereas obviously, we both of us, we haven't got that. And we've always relied on because, you know, very lucky, we're very, very equal. We've always kind of both worked in both, both on whatever. So having a family for us and me being a moment. We've we've, we've kind of thought, well, we're going to do it and we'll make it work around this and Jamie chipped in just as much as me. So I don't know, I yeah, I've been able to just kind of carry on and also have things in place. For the work that I do that I will take the children if I need to. So I've been very lucky that I've been able to do it. My work that's kind of more artsadmin like I've gotten I've done, I've done like training and I've just had the baby in the sling. Because so because I'm breastfeeding and I'm gonna go to work and have to take the baby and that's just it. So and but I've been very lucky that people have been very accepting of that. Because if I was maybe in a business where that wasn't acceptable, you know, not all businesses, it isn't acceptable, you know, if you're a nurse or whatever, can't take your baby to work. So I do feel very lucky that I've been able, you know, the support network around me at work as well as home as men that I have been able to have children and still work as an artist, you know, and that so and I know not everybody does have that support. So I do feel very lucky. I think sometimes it's what it's wanting to do it though, isn't it like I think I am. I'm quite proud RTX I'm like, Well, I still want to do this, and I want to have children. So therefore I have to, I have to make it work. And so I have to put myself in positions, that I can do it. So yeah, a lot of it is setting things up that I've had to do myself. You know, a lot of my work and everything I've gone out to find and projects I do the funding applications for and everything which I have to do my own time, there's been a lot of midnight 1am is writing funding bids for you. But that means that when we've been lucky, and we've been successful, it's meant I've been able to do the work I want. And because I've been project manager, and they've been able to make things work. So yeah, it's it is. It is hard work to make it work. But it's worth it. If you want to make it if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. You also teach music. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So I do peripatetic teaching. So I go around some schools, it's mainly been primary schools, and I do private teaching at home as well, which is, some kids are mainly adults that I teach privately. Yeah. Yeah. Is that changed a lot through COVID? Did you have to do lots of stuff online? Yeah, so a lot of it was online, which is tough. I think teaching online is really, there's some really good things about it, in the sense that it's actually you can fit more people in, you know, condense it. So and, and you you don't have in, yeah, you're not having to do too much traveling. So that's good. And it's convenient, especially for adults. Because often if you finish work, and then you have to go out to the clarinet lesson, you can be bothered to go and do that, you know, on a dark evening. And actually, that timelines worked quite a lot for them because they can slot in the parents with the children because they're, you know, if you've got to having to take little Germany to x and x. You know, it's tiring, isn't it after your work? So some parents are actually quite good. But but it isn't. It isn't the same. Yeah. Nothing can nothing is the same as having face to face lessons. So that was tough during the pandemic, but everyone that I teach cope so well. And it was amazing to be able to keep it going. Yeah, yeah. So your place is called Darby. That's it. Right. Yeah. And you're near Birmingham? Yeah. Are you from the North? This is one of those questions. Because, you know, I think it's because if you're from the south, everything north of Birmingham is the North. Whereas if you're from the north, then like, then it depends on where you, you know, if you were from Yorkshire, you would not pass me as a Northerner. It'd be like, Midlands, that's not enough. Whereas if you were London, you'd probably class be a Northerner. So that depends on who you talk to. Looking at the map, like there's still quite a lot of north north of you. Yeah, quite a lot going up. Yeah. To be to be safe. I'm in Midland, you're indecisive. I don't know where I am just hovering around. That's funny. It's like your relative to other people telling you where you are. That's it. That's it. Sorry, I'm scrolling now. What sort of projects? Can you share any projects that you've got on the go stuff you've got coming up that you want to share? With the list? Yes. Yes. So what am I doing? So we've got a work one of the jobs that I do I work for a hospital trusters arts coordinator on Amis music coordinator, and during the pandemic, we did some Commission's and writing some stuff. So this year, we've got We've got quite a big project coming up in the summer, which is going to be a reflection on the pandemic and stuff with the staff. And so we've written a song for that, which we'll do with the staff choir. And it's hopefully going to be a sharing a lot of the staff wrote poems and things like that as part of like reflection for them. So I'm organizing that which will be hopefully really beautiful and really reflective and really nice. And then threaded wise, we've got at the moment, putting together some for some summer festivals. And we're working with the University in Nottingham as well to develop some tech which will support the access. So that's a bit of a kind of experiment as to what they are developing and we will try will pilot is from festivals and see, see how it works. And if it works. So we're going to be doing that in the summer, as well. And that's ongoing and yes on collective performances. And we're going to try we're going to we're getting back on with some threaded stuff this year as well. So we've got some dates of the day with names and we're gonna write some new music. Yeah, which I'm really looking forward to. And then, yeah, we've got the red tree, which is the the music I've written for the theatre company that's been live streamed. On Sunday, the twin, it's Sunday, the 29th of January at Wolverhampton theatre. So I mean, if it's live stream, I imagine that anybody could get one even if you're in Australia, you could watch it I imagine if it's live streamed, yeah, for sure. So that story, the red tree, I think it's aimed at children six upwards, and it's about, it's about the little girl who she wakes up in a room and she's got nothing to look forward to. And each book, each picture of the book is a different kind of scenario. And it's about anxiety, depression, really, I think the book, but then at the end, it's all hopeful. So they've been doing a lot of work. And so it's going to be live streamed into schools during the week. But anyone with children that especially after the pandemic that has that type of, you know, children, because children have experienced a lot of isolation and anxiety more than I think. I know, I know, that happens anyway. But I think just so it's just such a big thing. At the moment, I think they thought it was going to be a really great book, because it might help children reflect on their feelings a little bit. So for sure. A good one to check out if anyone wants to watch some live stream theater. So yeah, and then. Yeah, and then I think, and then apart from that, I just got to try and get some more gigs in but I am being honest, because I'm on maternity leave. So yeah, real thing, but. But I have just after LUMION and really started school in September. So that juggle, I've got on with some stuff, but I need to get back on that. And then I'm also starting my baby music classes back at the start of next month as well, because I do a little group called Ed tempos. And it's really lovely. And so because I've got Aluna, I can take him and I do that, because that's really nice. And it's really good now, because I've got the children and I've seen them go through that. So did did it with the others. It's like it actually is amazing. I know. I know, music is amazing for children's development. But I've seen firsthand that now. Like seeing it go from nought to five. Because they did all this stuff like rubes is like her ear and all those musical issues that the pianos just work like to work out tunes. And that that's just because of exposure, you know, and you don't have to come from a musical household for your children to be able to do that. I think all children can do it. It's just exposure. Yeah, that's Yeah. How long have you been doing you? Is it teeny? Temporary? Tiny? Yeah, TV tempos? So we started it when Yeah, we started it when I was little. And so when was that? 20. I think it started in 2019. And we did a bit of it before the pandemic. And then then we did it. We moved it online for a term. But it was one of those things that was just tough to do online. And then I could have gone back and started it face to face, but because of a lot of the restrictions, and the and just the risk assessments and all the cleaning and everything, I was just a bit overwhelmed. I was like, oh, you know, I'd be really stressed about under disinfect everything because I have to do that in teach with teaching in schools, but it's kind of with older kids, you can disinfect the stones you can disinfect everything I've touched, but with babies and children and putting things in their mouths and using the right cleaners and I was like Ah, there's just too much. So I thought I'll just wait until things have calmed down a little bit and find a way to make that work. So we're starting the face to face stuff, but that's really really nice and it's nice to help other parents use music as a way to communicate with their babies and be confident to do it as well because it's like you know so many people and but you find that being a vocalist as well, that we can all sing and We have different levels of as my dad always says Rosie likes to sing. Definitely doesn't mean that Gabby, I think, but I think what's really what everybody can and babies don't care about how, whether or not you're any good, they just love that sound and the connection. So, and sometimes it's just finding, it's just knowing what to do and how to do it. Give mums and dads the confidence, or grandparents or whoever it is the confidence to communicate with your baby through music and song because it just enhanced their development so much. And you know, into even intonations between words, there's some specific things that they can they latch on to, and tones of voice for positive and negative and things like that, which, once you know it, it's really nice for you to be able to use that and communicate with your baby. But a lot of it is confidence and parents not having the confidence to sing or not, not even knowing the nursery rhymes because it's been such a long time. You know, if you did it as a child, and if you don't have any other children in your family, you know, if you've not got siblings or children or cousins of children, your child could be the first one for a long time. And you just have no idea what any of these babies absorb. Yeah. Yeah, so that's really nice. Yeah, I work in childcare. That's my day job. I mainly work with what are they probably 18 months to two and a half, maybe nearly three year olds. thing I find, like, I don't care. I've been doing that job for nine years now. And I'll old and I don't sing properly. When I'm at work. I just you know, hey, you've got that proper singing voice and then you've got you this this when you sing Happy Birthday to someone in a group you just sing. You don't do your prophecy voice? You know what I mean? Yeah, I just I just crack on and sing the silly songs. And I think a lot of stuff for parents, I just get so embarrassed because they think you've got to be able to sing properly, to sing and so like, your kids just want to hear you sing like they don't they're not going to judge you. And they're not. They just and you're right. It's like the rhythms and like almost like, you know, when you read a really good book with the, like, the poetry the way, the like the rhythm of the words coming out like it just expanding on that and singing something or, you know, just I don't know, like, it's just this, this expansion of language and the kids love it so much, especially if you can throw into actions. That's always good. Yeah, I think I think parents just get embarrassed because they think, Oh, I can't do this. And who's watching me and, you know, it's yeah, it's like, Just do it. Yeah, enjoy the process. The end result doesn't matter. Yeah. And your kids just love it. They just they want to hear it. Thank you so much for being on the show. It's been a pleasure chatting to you, Rosie. It's been lovely. Thank you so much for having me, Alison. It's been lovely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Sarah Broekensha Australian actor and producer S1 Ep18 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Sarah Brokensha is an actor and producer from Eight Mile Creek, South Australia, and a mother of 2 boys. Acting since the age of 23, Sarah has performed numerous times with Patch Theatre Company , including an off-Broadway season in New York City. She performed in Mutzenball which was awarded the 2008 Green Room Theatre Award for Best Cabaret Ensemble, Other shows include Ruby Bruise , Emily Loves to Bounce , Me and My Shadow, Yo Diddle Diddle and The Girl Who Cried Wolf. Her film and television credits include Wanted Season 3 , Wolf Creek 2 and Rabbit (feature film). Sarah created her own production company, Control Party Theatre , and received rave reviews for her one woman show "The World is Looking for You" in August 2021. In addition to all this she runs a farm with her husband Liam, which incorporates a free range egg farm The Splendid Egg We discuss how covid has levelled the playing field in the theatre industry, how important support for expectant and new mums is in the industry in keeping your sense of identity, and building resilience in her children, and herself. Connect with Sarah here More info about The World is Looking For You Connect with the podcast here Audio of the promo video for The World is Looking for You that appears in the intro, is used with permission Music used with permission in this episode is from Alison Newman and Alemjo Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... oday on the podcast, I would like to welcome Sarah Brokenshire. Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. It's great. So you are an actor, which is exciting. I haven't had an actor on my show yet. So, welcome. Thank you. I feel honored to be the first. Yeah. So tell us about yourself how you got into being an actor and share anything else that you'd like to around that? Yeah, okay. Well, I think I was I loved acting or the drama at school, high school, I guess. And then I didn't quite have the confidence, I don't think to audition for drama schools at that stage when I was 17. So I kind of put that aside and I went traveling, went skiing, I was kind of snow ski instructor actually, and then did like a business degree and did all sorts of other things. But really, ultimately, it got to a point where all I was thinking about was having a go having a crack at acting and, and so finally, when I was, it was it was when I was about 2024 2423 24, I finally plucked up the courage and started auditioning for drama school. So then I went to drama school. In had the best three years, I've had the best time and then as a mature age students, so everyone else was kind of 1718 and I was very old, 24 year old. I felt very old looking back now. That um, and then yeah, and then I left drama school. I finished there in 2004 and just been kind of slowly chipping away doing just getting gigs where I can and not experiencer independent theater and working with a lot of the professional theatre companies in Adelaide mainly spent a couple of years in Melbourne and then made the odd decision to move regionally. Which was really weird way has been the best thing. All my career. It's a very interesting journey for me, but to be leaving early. Yeah, I was gonna ask you that. And you've brought it up. So I'll ask you now have you said it's really good for your career of being in my Gambia which is 500 kilometers away from Adelaide 500. Club. Know, but how, how is that so good? I think initially, it was actually was quite hard. But it made me become a bit more resourceful made me think about what I kind of work I wanted to make I wanted to be a part of. And when things were quite quiet, I kind of went alright, well, maybe. How can I make the work come to me? How can I get I'd made some really good I spent a good 10 years in Adelaide making a really great network of creatives and friends that were doing amazing things. And then I looked for avenues where I couldn't bring them to me or yeah, how can I open up an opportunity that maybe I'm not, you know, outside of the box, and that's kind of where that started. And and I mean, it's not it doesn't all happen really quickly. That's happened but I've been here for 11 years. And now I'm starting to get quite busy but it's taken, you know, taken it's a slow burn definitely. That's interesting, too. I guess that would also be It's really beneficial for us as audiences in regional areas to be able to maybe get shows that we wouldn't get here because the main actor is from here. Would that be fair to say? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And one or the other. And also, when I got invited kind of created down to me, I've also tried to have opportunities where I get them out into the community. So we, and it's also been a really good way for me to an inroad into my community in a way as well, it's been a really good way for me to kind of understand where I live and get to know the people that surround me. But, yeah, definitely, like, I think the more Yeah, I think more professional artists seem to be kind of leaving the cities. And I think that definitely draws those kind of different shows and works and performances, whatever, out of the city. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I was gonna ask you to share with us some of the shows that you've been in, I know that I had a ticket to come and see you in the world is looking for you. And then my son broke his arm that night, so I couldn't. Stressful, I've actually very disappointed because I've had wonderful, wonderful feedback about that show. So I don't know how we're ever gonna get to see Do they ever? Do they record them? Like, yeah, it often doesn't translate quite as well. But we did get a really beautiful, archival recording in Adelaide, actually, an amazing filmmaker kind of came in and took a few different, got a few different cameras in there. But I think hopefully, we'll get to do it again, down here, I only got to do it three times and to very small audiences, which was intentional, to keep it very intimate. But I think I would like it just was over so quickly, in such a, I guess this work was very personal, and had a lot of my personal story in it. And then to be able to do it to my local community was was so humbling and profound for me, that I just selfishly want to have that experience again. It was just, it was really very grateful to have had that moment in time. Yeah. No, I want you to do it again. So I can say it. Yeah. So front row ticket. Yeah, absolutely. So you said that you'd had some of your own personal story. So how did that come about? Were you involved in actually like brushing it? Or how how did that come about? Um, I went long story is that when I first moved back here, I was definitely a bit of a loss of what to do and thought I had isolated myself from my creative community I kind of initially I thought I possibly made a mistake in terms of career not not in terms of family because I'd moved back to be closer to family to for limb, my husband and I would start a family together. But I did feel quite isolated from Adelaide and in Melbourne and thought maybe I'd made a mistake, but in that regard, but then I just kept getting these little invitations from the regional funding body country out to say and they kind of one of them kind of heard that I had moved from Adelaide to or from and to Matt Gandy. And so he just kept sending me these little invitations to meet up with someone just to talk about this or come to Adelaide for the fringe and meet some other regional artists and so slowly, I kind of, and then I kind of got the courage, I guess, which is sounds a bit strange, but the courage to have an idea that in my mind that I kind of put out there usually I just perform other people's ideas or, and so I applied for a grant to develop a show with a director, friend of mine, Daisy Brown, she's this incredible director that we've worked together on a few shows in Adelaide. And so we applied for funding to commission, an amazing writer Finnegan Cucamonga to come and work with us. So I didn't write the show. Thank goodness. I am. So this is part of that, that process of who are the people that I'd like to sit in a room with and work with. And it was Daisy and Finn, and, and Mario, who Daisy, Mario, and I have a company to get a fairly company together. And we all want to work with those people. And I had just had an idea, which was a, an article that I'd found in a, based on an article I'd found on Facebook essentially used before. And so I got the got the funding. And I think you've got to come down here to Adelaide, Gambia, and we sat in a room for a week, and talking and talking talk. And then we did that, again, we probably had a four week rehearsal process over a year. And then we just started from there. And we it was a four year process. play that. Yeah. It was a big one. And it was meant to happen in last year, but it got postponed because COVID But there was almost a blessing. I think that yeah, and so and, and why I wasn't really sure what it was going to be none of us were when we started talking. And then it's just kind of evolved over evolved over four years and became this one woman show which wasn't my intention, either, because that's terrifying. It ended up being Yeah, this this. Yeah, this is theta work that we're very proud of. Oh, yeah. That's, that's no, I really have to say it was on stage with the composer he, he played live. And then we had this amazing vocalist as well. So she was part of the EU, I think to what maybe I can like start a petition to get it back. So other things that you've done? I know, with my connection with childcare, you've done some work with the patch theatre group, they do shows for children. Yeah, tell us the other things that you've done over? Yeah. Yeah, I've done a lot of work with patch theatre, and I actually do a lot of work with them over my presidency. Yeah, so that kind of saved me a little bit, in many ways. Like, it kept me kind of, in the, in the, with my finger, it felt like my finger was still on a pulse of some description. Because I'm, you know, I mean, I'm sure you understand as well, when you when you have start having kids. It's just, it's hard to kind of, you know, still figure out who you are amongst the midst of motherhood and beautiful mess in some in some respects, I guess. But you do. It's hard to kind of, you know, there's a life that was and then you as another kind of just trying to figure it out. And somehow I got to kind of keep a little bit of my artistic identity alive at at that stage, which I think was very crucial to my feeling. Like, I could still do it. I was still an artist still. Yeah. And so I kept my head above water a little bit. So patch I did, I got a pet like 10, or maybe even more than 10 years ago, now, I was lucky enough to start working on two different pet shows. They'll call them. Emily loves to bounce, and me and my shadow, which is two beautiful, beautiful shows that just happened to have these amazing tours and I got to tour with them every you know, once or twice a year. You know, back when we could go overseas and got to go to you know, travel to New York and perform in New York with a little two year old in tow and Oh, yeah. And also while I was pregnant, they kind of would shift rehearsals so that, you know, I could still do rehearsals before my due date and because you're gonna have some times when, when you're acting you feel when you get job. You feel like what I did, I felt like when I found out I was pregnant. I felt like if I told them, you know, that might be the end of that gig, no other jobs in sight. And yeah, so there's all this. Yeah, but something you know, both times when I was pregnant I had patched up and they kind of would go out. No worries, let's just move this here and there. So you can still be, we still want you to be part of the soul and how they will kind of crash into my ceiling. valued, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it's a bit more than just jobs. I guess. Now that looking back on that. acting jobs hilarious. And then, yeah, so. And then I've just done a few little tiny TV roles and things like that, where, where I've been able to, and they've been amazing, and, and just basically, I'll take any job I can get. Like, I'll do whatever, I'll do anything. Identity? Yeah, so you mentioned there, how crucial and really valuable that wasn't being able to keep doing what you love doing, rather than having to stop while you're pregnant? What about when, when you first had your first child? Did you have a break at all, then? Or were you able to just sort of keep, keep going? I guess, I kept going by the day, the shows are fairly, you know, sporadic. So there was long periods of time where there wasn't much happening, or there were periods of time where I wasn't sure if there was anything in the pipeline, you know, and then something would come up, and it'd be okay. And we'd kind of boy, me, I guess for a bit and then. So it's that old kind of, you know, it's never, you never know, really what's happening and what's coming up next. And, you know, so that job insecurity that comes with being an actor or creative, probably. But, um, so it was definitely a struggle. And then I guess, you know, for me, I have to, usually for the most part, but go to Adelaide, usually to work. So there's that added kind of stress of added stress of having to figure out what to do. Whether to, yeah, how to make that work. Because I will often desperately feel like I wanted to do that job. You know, because you hardly know when you're going to get the next opportunity or, or, yeah, but also trying to look after little tiny babies or, like, some of the patch touring I did, I did these big tourism. So Liam would come with me for a few weeks, and then taking with his mum. And so my mother in law would come and tour with me for a couple of weeks, and then my mom and so it always involved having a very good support network around me. And that was kind of the part of the reason for coming home as well was because I knew that there would be that support network is when my mum lives here. My sister and her. Her husband, they moved back here about six months before I did and we're very close. So yeah, having having that support has been crucial. Absolutely. I wouldn't have been Yeah. Tell me about your children is nearly 10 Finnegan and Fergus, he is seven, seven coming up seven and a half, two and a half years apart. Of course I am very fond of them. And I think they're very amazing. And I printed in funny and, and yeah, I've luckily just been able to either bring them along on tour or have them in rehearsal rooms when required or, you know, and they, they've loved kind of growing up in that, that little world. And I'm working on a children's show just finished a little bit of a rehearsal now and we're doing a bit more rehearsal in December and we need a test audience. That six kids so they're going to come in and be our test audience. I feel very smug about that. Cool huh. So they work just as well. Do they like to have a bit of a go? Yeah, I don't know. I think it seems like to me oldest might have a guy but yeah, I don't know. This guy doesn't know, folks too keen to get up in front of people. But I think maybe maybe seen he's got a bit more of that. Or not that a lot of actors are kind of overt an extrovert. Actually, most of us aren't think but yes. Jimmy's got a bit of a flair, I think. Have you come across any other mums doing sort of similar thing to you that are able to keep working with the little ones or while they're pregnant? Um, yeah, I think it's becoming more and more. I don't know, like, commonplace. I think that your work around pregnancies and small children and it's kind of crucial now I think for theatre companies to be inclusive of mothers of tiny babies. So make those rehearsal rooms comfortable and safe for new mothers and things that I think it's becoming just normal now. Which is great. I don't know. I don't know. I know a lot of friends in Adelaide that have babies that working in Adelaide. I don't know, so many regional artists, personally that don't have to leave home for you know, long stretches, which I've done a little bit of that which has been very challenging. Like I really appreciated the work and the experiences, but yeah, very, very challenging. For me and for Lee and my husband, as well. And. You also run a chicken not a chicken farm. It's an egg egg farm. Yeah. Well, I guess it's a we're trying to make it a regenerative farm basically, and so that the chickens are part of that ethos or that philosophy. So they we've only got a couple of caravans, I guess, they called but then sheds, mobile sheds, and we pull it around the paddocks. And chickens just cruise around wherever they want. And kind of basically fertilizing and sanitizing the soil in hopes that we don't have to spray and do all those kinds of things. And we have those beautiful Miranda dog Guardian dogs that look after them out in the paddock. So, you know, there's no fences or anything that I wander around and do it like that. Um, so yeah, that's an interesting been an amazing kind of little add on to the farm. So my, my family, I grew up on this farm that I'm living on now. And my husband is now running it, which is not something that we both really thought we'd be doing, like 15 years ago. We love it. And yeah, so the chickens, we've got this brand called the splendid age, and we sell these beautiful, I think it'd be passion free range eggs. And yeah, just as part of a byproduct of trying to create more diversity on the farm. So traditional farmers will like run other we run we run low prime land, we sell walls well across from that and then we have just some cattle from other neighboring kind of properties. So we look after cattle for other farms and you know trying to got a bit of a rotation of a few different animals through their property. Yeah. And I have read online that they the the chickens have so much space it's even beyond like the traditional what they classes it's like even more yeah just get back in. There's no other offenses to keep they're like Kelvin shooting but they can just walk through the under those or they can go wherever they like essentially, right at the beginning we have these kind of movable fences so we can teach them where to lay and where to sleep and things like that. But you in Yeah, and I can just walk anywhere they're like, I mean, obviously, they walk too far and then come back then it's it's on them if they caught my socks. Yeah, man, some of them just won't walk for case but um, yeah, no, no, no, we'll just kind of wander back to the caravans to roost at night. Yeah, I can go wherever you're like, really? Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, it's lovely. So you came to be easy, really? Like with a bit of a weird mix? Ah, okay. People like oh, look, that's the egg lady. I won't say. I won't say you're the egg lady. Egg lady. But it is a weird combination of kind of acting. And I quite like wearing a few different hats as long as I can have something creative in the pipeline, or yeah, just be able to kind of continue auditioning and things like that. Then I I really enjoy having such different hats. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Have gone in COVID. Obviously, you've been able to put on you your big show. But like, you talked about auditioning in that? Or have you had to do lots of stuff online? Or has it sort of worked? Yeah, in a way, it's kind of leveled the playing field a little bit for people that don't live in the city. Because I mean, it was kind of hanging that way in the industry was starting to do a lot more self taping, for auditions and things like that. So it was kind of heading in that direction anyway, when rather than walking into a impersonal audition, you'd send in a tape and then go through all the tapes, and then pick the field that they want, and then get those people to come in. And now that's kind of the norm. And obviously, preferred method of auditioning is actually just sending you the tape. And because it's harder to get, you can't fly from Melbourne to Sydney, just, you know, for the day to do an audition. So it's, yeah, it kind of leveled the playing field a bit. And I kind of that isolation weirdly, for me, was minimized, I guess, or Yeah, so I felt more connected. People. I mean, and you know, it would go crazy. Like, people were zooming like crazy in the beginning, but I started connecting with all sorts of people. And creatives that were doing interesting things through zoom, and because everyone was like, well, right, well, how can we still connect with that? Yeah, that Zoom each other or? Yeah, can you send in a tape for this? And it's for me, it kind of was good in many ways. Cuz you probably you probably wonder I've got the chance to meet these people have opportunities if if it wasn't there, that like you said, it's got to tell its upside. Yeah, it definitely has its upside because I have been doing tapes for a little while. Now. I also feel quite comfortable doing that, but almost prefer going into a live or digital real audition because I get all not great. auditioning. I get nervous and you know, when you start talking in your head, like just stop talking. And you just keep going or go back. So I've had to like I have so much more control over a self tape audition, so I don't know concept of mum guilt. What how do you feel about that? Yeah, I've been thinking about that a bit. Navigating motherhood is, is tricky, that I definitely felt a lot of guilt I guess, but about starting going back to work about leaving the kids about leaving my family to go and do a theater job or, and whether it was worth it. And I think, mum got it, I feel like it implies that you've done something wrong, do like numb guilt. And I don't think that's correct. So I wonder if are thinking about it today, because I often feel guilt about not doing this because I'm doing this so you know, I'm doing an acting job. So I can't put as much energy into the farm and so it puts more pressure on them or so I'm feeling guilty all over the place. And, and that's the kind of I feel like I'm being that conditioning thing. So it's not just mom guilt, I don't think I just always felt a bit kind of like I should be in all places all the time. But I think I think I when you when I was going away a lot, I struggled with feeling guilty, feeling, I guess, stressed and stretched and, and then and just not being around. And Liam is just amazing. And being so supportive, he would say well, you know, is that I think he kind of stress to me that it's important that the boys see that you're doing what you love, I guess. And that maybe it's just about finding the right compromises. So your husband, Liam, he must be very supportive, to be encouraging you to keep keep doing what you love doing. And all my whole family right from the beginning. And I think that lame would always say look, because leading up to going away for a show, or just a couple of weeks before I just feel wretched and I feel sad, and I'd feel super guilty about leaving and that he would just remind me that it's a beautiful time for him and the boys to to have a different kind of relationship. Often leaves mum would come over with her partner while I was away to help. And then so then she'd have this different relationship with Liam and the boys than she would if I was here, which I thought was really a lovely thing to say and a lovely thing for me to be reminded of that. She Yeah, she gets to have this different relationship with with the boys while while I'm away. And that she loves that time. She because she doesn't get to see them often. She was encountering, like regional Victoria eight hours away. So and then they get to see me during my love, I guess, or they get to see me going to do that. I mean, they don't necessarily see the shows each time but they get to understand that I'm making a sacrifice to do the things that I love or making. And, and that yeah, it's just about trying to find the right kind of compromise because I think you need your own thing as a as a human and as a as a mum as a parent, but definitely as a mom you need your own whatever that is like even if it doesn't have to be work but and so to have your own thing you do need to compromise and sacrifice a little bit. That kind of relationship with your children or your husband and it's about finding the right compromise or the right balance I guess of sure feeling a bit guilty but also feeling that you Are you doing the right thing for you? I guess? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think that's an that's it's always a struggle, it's never the same, it's time, it's always a different lead up to me leaving, it only happens a couple of times a year. If I have a good deal, it's, it's a couple of times a year. And the lead up is different every year as the kids get older to. Like, Finn, especially he really misses. Or he gets away, he kind of worked himself off as a lead up to me going away, but then he's finally gone. But so that anxiety, those anxieties are a bit different now for the boys leading up to because they can communicate how they're feeling. And they don't want me to go and this and that, and the other. But I guess that opens up opportunities to talk about why I'm doing what I'm doing. And that it is, although it is hard, it means I get to kind of do the thing that I love, but they also get to hang out with Liam in a different way. That's a really great way of looking at it too. It's stringer strengthening other relationships in your family unit, as well. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and lame. Duck put obviously, a lot of pressure on him, but and he really appreciates that kind of bond he gets with the kids that different when I'm around. This is the kind of mommy's boys a bit at the moment. And so on kind of the, you know, but when I'm out of the picture for a bit, he becomes the kind of parent I guess. Yeah, so how do you step into those different roles? And I hope it's building resilience as well, a little bit maybe what's building resilience for me? I miss them so much. And, and it's, it's tapping away, because I'm also constantly going, is this worth it? Am I doing the right thing? It's only a theater show? Should I be home? Like all of that still going on? Even if I am having an amazing kind of time, you know, being in the rehearsal room, or something like that? And then do you tell yourself that it is worth it? Like, do you do it yourself? Then? Say yes, yeah. Yes, exactly. And that I am reminded, and my mom actually said, the last time because Oh, my God, I'm feeling really anxious about not being around. And it's just like, well, you know, if you just have to, you know, kind of weigh up. And if it's too much, like, if it's, if that's outweighing if you're, if you're miserable, and doing in a way during the show, then there's no point to doing that. So, but if you're, if you're, if you're happy, then and, yeah, then it's kind of it's worth it. I'm not like damaging my children. I just think it's wonderful though, for for boys, in particular, to say that a mother's a mother can be any, anything that they want to be to, like, the mother is the traditional role that they might sit might have seen, maybe the grandparents in a different way. But then mothers of today can can do whatever they want. And I think that's awesome for boys to say that that, you know, as they grow up their expectation of what, you know, their relationships might look like is, you know, endless. I suppose its boundless. It hasn't got these constraints that the previous generations would have had, I guess. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I guess when when I'm at home, I do we do tend to kind of fall into Liam's kind of out doing the labor on the farm, although I do come out and help and, and I tend to be them on that kind of nurturing and doing like book work and, and taking the score and doing those kind of almost, you know, those stereotypes, the stereotypical kind of role that we've kind of fall into which I don't sometimes I feel funny about that. I yeah, I agree with you that I think it's great for them to kind of see me Yeah. forging a bit of a path that's a bit tricky, as well, I guess. Yeah, it's just it's tricky and hard and as a performer, I think and an actor it's definitely a build resilience. Yeah. I get out pretty quickly, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Like, you would have to have pretty thick skin I suppose to, you've always putting yourself up for stuff. And you're at the whim of someone else to tell you whether you're good enough because or not, whether you're right for the role or not, but I don't think there'll be many people. Exactly, yeah, it's definitely pretty tricky. And I think that's part of the reason for starting to be a bit more rigorous in creating my own work is so that you can have some kind of control over what you're doing. And, and so you can still get your voice out there and your stories out there. And, and, and, you know, it's hard, like, I'm sure you probably feel the same when you like, write a song or or write an album, and then you've kind of put put your heart and soul into it. And then you just have to go, Matt, ego, what do you think? Why do you not I mean, like, Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's very, you're so very, very vulnerable situation to put yourself in and, and, yeah, sometimes when standing out, outside, just recently are standing out the front of the foyer after doing the show. And I'm just like, God, this is, I feel like I basically just kind of, you know, cut over my chest poured out my heart. And I just smoked it down in front of everyone for you to skate. You know, I was a bit late for a bit but like, God, it is. Yeah, it's thank God, people do it now. Like when you hear a piece of music that just like rips your heart out, or you see like, for me watching a theater show that can either punches you in the gut for the best. I love it so much. And so, you know, thank God, artists and people are creative, because for me, that's like, that's the stuff of life. But I'm not for everybody, I guess. But yeah, it does take a bit of Yeah, resilience and determination. And it's not really a choice is that you're just Oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's very true. Yeah. Yeah, it's just you just make you just have to. Yes, you are compelled to do it. Yeah, yep. Yep. Yeah, I think it's great. I have so much admiration for all of us and relishing myself. And yeah, I think it's just, Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think I think that's why it's so hard for moms, you create, because of this, the sheer determination that you're going to do what you want to do, you're going to put out what you want to share, you're going to create what you want to create. But then you go, Oh, hang on a minute. There's these other people here now that I have to consider. And it's like trying to reconcile the two. Yeah, it's just, absolutely. I mean, I don't know how you feel when you're kind of writing songs or, but I know that when I'm rehearsing or performing a show, especially leading up to opening night, or things like that, I find it very hard to be present. Because I'm always thinking about just feeling nervous, really, or you kind of consumed about the characters I'm exploring. And so it's a tricky balance to be kind of be present. With the kids walking something at the same time, but also, yeah. Enjoy the privilege. Yeah, it's, it's, that's a, it's a really hard one. There's the episode that came out today with Rachel, she said that she always tried to keep the two things really separate the, the parenting, and her art practice. And I think it's different. Because when you're actually, you know, you physically holding a paintbrush or physically holding a pen, you can go to this space and do it. But you're in this, here. And so then she she found that if she could get some time doing her art, then she could go right, that's done. Now I can go see my children, which works great, you know, for that sort of medium. But I find like, your mind can be really challenging because you've always got stuff going around in your head. Like, yeah, always there. And how do you switch that off? Well, your children have come over and said, Hey, what should we do this and you're going when I'm watching but my brains back here thinking about what I was really challenging just to but when I come in here to actually record something, that's the easy bit because I can go right I'm shutting the door. Give me 10 minutes to record. Yeah, it's all the other step the other times the hard, you know, yeah. And yeah, it's rattling around in here. And you just, you just want to grab, like, things will come to you in a second and you're like, Oh, hang on, hang on. I have to write this down. Yeah. Because the truth is Do you know? Oh, I don't know. It's just like, ah, yeah, heads looks like splitting. Yeah, I'd be I find it tricky as well. And because I, I spent a lot of time when I'm rehearsing and performing actually away from the family. So that's easier for that in that regard for to be able to kind of just concentrate on, on the show that I'm doing. Whereas I find now that I'm doing a bit more work here and in my Gambia at home, and it's actually really tricky. When you when you work go to work during the day, and then you have to come home and and come try and switch it off. So that's a real struggle for me, because I've kind of had an realize it was a bit of a luxury to be able to just get in that bubble, and, and kind of create and then not have to come home and parent that yeah, the really tricky part is trying to combine the two and, you know, I have huge admiration for, you know, a lot of my working actor friends in Adelaide that have to do that all the time, because that's tricky. Yeah. Just these endless challenges that we're faced with. Yeah, something comes up. Show that you've got coming up that you're working on the children show, how when's that sort of looking like it will have its opening and that sort of stuff? Yeah, so that's a company called the paper boats and theatre theater, Michael de Brown, who used to work at patch theater, so that when I was doing my shadow, and he was the artistic director there, so we've had a long kind of working relationship. He is developing a show with another creative down here called Kevin Clark. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So dancer musician, I feel like it's the triple threat. And he, so I'm working on a little show called Seven little wonders that will be performed, I think, as part of the Fringe Festival Matt gave me that. March. Yeah. So we're kind of slowly kind of developing. It involves like six little six kids on stage the whole time. So I've never it'll be an interesting and interesting experience, I think and so that's why we're starting we're gonna get a few test audiences in early but hopefully the the beautiful kind of, you know, little show for for kind of four to eight year olds. Oh, wonderful. That sounds awesome. Yeah, that sounds Yeah, gag, gag just he plays all these different instruments. And I just kind of stand there and say words every now and again. But the fairy wouldn't have the show without your words. Thank you if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman H dwellest Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Alex Sinickas Australian engineer + designer S2 Ep76 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Alex Sinickas, an engineer and designer from Bright, Victoria, and a mum of 1. Alex grew up playing outdoors with her older brother, re-creating the achievements of her childhood heroes Indiana Jones, MacGyver and James Bond. She spent a lot of time digging up things and blowing things up, This sparked her curiosity of how to build things and how things worked. When it came time to go to Uni Alex studied engineering and also economics, She got into design a bit later, whilst working in structural engineering with architects, she wanted to be able to help people to be able to achieve their visions. 4 years ago Alex was breastfeeding her daughter and found herself on the end of a breast pump and found it to be quite a shocking and painful experience, needing to pump extensively for her daughter who refused the breast. This got Alex thinking about how she could make this experience more comfortable. She ordered some silicone and a robotics kit and set about creating 3D printouts of silicone cushions, which lead to Alex collaborating with a roboticist and a prototype coach, and her husband's insight as a GP also proved useful. They produced prototypes and each time Alex had to pump she would try them out, until they found the perfect fit. Thus began MilkDrop Pumps , a soft silicone pad that stretches over most brands of existing pumps. They launched in Australia in April 2021 and in the US in late 2022. Alex - MilkDrop Pumps Podcast - instagram / website What is STEM? ***This episode contains discussions around pregnancy loss, post natal depression and an IUGR pregnancy.*** If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler. How mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is a pleasure to have you. This Week on the podcast. My guest is Alex cynic s. Alex is an engineer and a designer from bright in Victoria, and she's a mom of one. Alex grew up playing outdoors with her older brother, recreating the achievements of her childhood heroes, including Indiana Jones, MacGyver and James Bond, she spent a lot of time digging up things and blowing things up. This sparked her curiosity of how to build things and how things worked. When it came time to go to uni, Alex studied engineering and also economics. She got into design a bit later, whilst working in structural engineering with architects. She wanted to be able to help people to be able to achieve four years ago, Alex was breastfeeding her daughter and found herself on the end of a breast pump and found it to be quite shocking and painful experience needing to pump extensively for her daughter who refuse the breast. This got Alex thinking about how she could make this experience more comfortable, not just for herself. But for other mothers. She ordered some silicone and a robotics kit and set about creating 3d printouts of silicone cushions, which led Alex to collaborate with roboticists and a prototype coach and her husband's insight as a GP also proved useful. They produce prototypes, and each time Alex had to pump she would try them out until they found the perfect feet. Thus began milkdrop pumps, a soft silicone pad that stretches over many brands of existing pumps. They launched in Australia in 2021, and in the US in late 2022. This episode contains discussions around pregnancy loss, postnatal depression, and an IUGR pregnancy. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a list of great international resources, which can be found on my podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. And while you're there, please take a minute to subscribe to my new weekly email, which I'm sending out at the beginning of each week. I'm a little bit conscious that we don't actually own all the content that we post on social media. And in light of Mr. Elon Musk's recent takeover of Twitter and the changes he's made. I'm even more aware than ever that things could disappear in the blink of an eye. So I'd love to be able to keep in touch with you before that disappears. So jump on and subscribe to my weekly newsletter. The music you'll hear today, as usual is from my ambient music trio called LM Joe. We are based in Australia and it's myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoy today's chat. Welcome, Alex. It's a real pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so you're based in your in Australia. Whereabouts are you in Australia? Yeah, I live in Brighton, which is about three and a half hours northwest of Melbourne. Yeah, I know. Right? Yeah. A lot of people when you say that, they say, Oh, I um, I went on family holidays there when I was a kid or something like that. Yeah, that's probably doesn't change that much. It's probably a little bit more popular now. And it's, you know, in winter, it's all about skiing. And in summer, it's all about mountain biking and road riding. And I remember the because I'm one of those people that not from family holidays. And the autumns are beautiful, which is stunning. Yeah, well, I'm I'm married to a Canadian and he reckons that it's the closest he can get to to Canada in Australia. So I feel like that's a nice, it's a nice compromise. We get to live here but you're Similar to Canada. Yeah, it's beautiful. It really is. And yeah, about three hours from Melbourne. Yeah, yeah. I have some great memories of that part of the world. Yes. Totally Beautiful. Very lucky. Oh, that's awesome. So you're an engineer and a designer. Can you share with us how you got into that field? I think I was just following my brother, actually, I might have a brother who's two years older than me. And through school. And growing up, he, he sort of involved me in all of his activities, really. So it was kind of just trotting around following him. And so our sort of childhood heroes were, you know, Indiana Jones and MacGyver, James Bond for that kind of stuff. So we spent a lot of time outside, digging up things and blowing things up, which is probably okay, these days. And so I just sort of learned about how to build things and curiosity about how things work from him, and probably my parents. And then I was always fairly good at maths. And so when it came time to go to, I knew I always wanted to go to uni, but not I didn't really know what I wanted to study, I thought, oh, maybe you know, medicine that's like what you do if that's what you're good at maths, which is a really strange concept, but that's kind of where it was at the time. But it just didn't really kind of make sense. And so I, yeah, I ended up doing engineering. And I did dumb economics as well, as my dad had said, like, oh, you know, I never really understood how money works and how businesses work. And I wish I'd known that. And maybe you might like that, too. So I was pretty, like, aimless. Although I was academically fairly, you know, good. But I really had no like idea about what I wanted to do. So that's how I ended up in engineering. And then, in terms of design, I got into that a bit later, one of the things you learned you do when you're engineering is you work in really big teams full of lots of different people. And I was working in structural engineering. And you end up working with architects quite a lot. And I loved what they did. Yeah, right. Grandfather was an architect. And I'd always loved design. And I'm probably not very good at it. But I know what looks good. I like being able to help people achieve that. And so I was always drawn to architecture and just, like, beautiful design, good design. Yeah. Right. So what sort of things had you been doing? Like you said, structural? Engineering, is that, like building bridges? And yeah, anything above the ground. So there's like a thing, you know, with engineering, there's lots of different kinds. My choice was, you know, electrical, chemical, environmental, and civil and so like, electrical seem too hard, I didn't really understand electricity, can't see it, you know, chemical like, I wasn't really that into chemistry, again, too hard to understand, can't see it civil, well, that's everything you can see. It's everything on the ground. So roads, rail, you know, it's water management, and then structural, which is things you can see above the ground. So buildings, bridges, anything like that. And so that kind of made the most sense to me, because I could see it, and I could understand how I, you know, I could make that. And so that's kind of where I ended up. And, yeah, luckily, I ended up working with this brilliant consulting firm called Eric, which is a, which was started by a guy who was an architect, also a philosopher, and an engineer. And he had this idea that if you worked closer with, you know, the designers at the very start, and with the people who were building it, you could create these really beautiful pieces of art. And so he started I think, in the 1960s. In the UK, he was Danish, and created this firm of engineers who were really oriented towards the dream of the architect, like, what did they want to create? And how could we bring the real world to that in a way that didn't like shut down their ideas, but was like, okay, yeah, you want to put, you know, some crazy structure up here that can't be built? Well, maybe it can be built, if we, you know, changed it like this. So use the physics in that way. And so, so he was, you know, he created this firm out of that and so I was lucky enough to fall into working for them, and that's where I learned about, you know, not necessarily being the artist yourself, but, you know, making art come alive. And I think architecture is one of those disciplines where, like, they can create some crazy stuff like, in the real world that exists, you know, and it's amazing to see what what, you know, what people can come up with. And I especially liked the kind of teamwork aspect of it, you know, you kind of needed a whole lot of things to come together to create these, you know, beautiful pieces. So, I didn't work very long in that, you know, as a structural engineer only a couple of years, but I worked in that firm for quite a while. Yeah, recently doing more research and development with them. Yeah. So up until that point, before this guy came up with this idea was this, was that a really sort of radical idea that people would work together in that way? Was it more like sheep would have an idea, and architects would just do their thing? And people wouldn't say, yeah. I mean, I don't know, there's probably historians, or people who were alive and working in that time, that would know better, it was always sort of shared with us, as part of the Kool Aid, you know, like about how it was not, you know, together. But I guess if you go back to like, you know, the idea of the Renaissance man, like art and science were very, very close, right. And I think as, possibly as you know, as society grows, and as disciplines grow you, you know, to be able to be an expert in your area, you have to get more and more narrow in your focus. And so it's very hard to be on top of everything anymore. Because it'll mean that you actually can't do that project, like you can't make it happen. So you get so individual people have to get more and more specialized. And so I wonder if like, you know, art fell off the way there. I think also, like, the economics of things changed. So the, the people with the power in the built environment now, which is what they call, you know, cities and things that get built. It's not necessarily the architect, I think it used to be that, you know, you might commission an architect to do a design, and then they might bring in like a bad engineer and some contractors to build it. And but the architect was like in control of the project, I'm not sure it's totally like that anymore. It's sort of shifted a little bit to the person who owns the property being the, you know, the person who's really making the big decisions. And so I'm not sure that we get quite as daring architecture anymore. Like, you know, would we have the Sydney Opera House? If it was 2022? Probably not. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. Yeah. Yeah. So I think like that, that's probably changed. But yeah, I'm not sure what it was like, before, but in my view, it's always good to have more people earlier on working together, because often, often, you can actually make the thing happen that everybody wants, if you're there at the start. It's just Messier. It takes longer. And it's got a higher chance of failure. So it's easier to like go with what you know. Yeah, that's what you're trying to do. Yeah, that's interesting. And you've raised a point there that I'll bring you back to later won't dive into that just yet. But I've written that down for later. But I want to talk about what you're doing right now. So you have used your extensive experience in your engineering and your designing background to create a business called milkdrop. Can you tell us about that, please? Sure. So, yeah, so I was working for this company. And I went on maternity leave for my daughter, who's now three, nearly four. And I found myself on the end of a breast pump to feed her, which I found to be quite a shocking experience, I think, you know, we had trouble feeding directly at the breast. And so I was pumping on a breast pump, like six to eight times a day, just trying to express milk for her. And I ended up with really damaged nipples. And I found it really painful. And it just like, after a while, you know, I dealt with it for a bit, but after a while, it started to really annoy me that this product had been made that it wasn't clear how to use it, and it was hurting me, but I still kind of had to. And I started to think about how I could make that different. And so I had seen these experiments that people had Um, it's soft robotics are like, robotic. Yeah, like robotic creations that were made of soft silicone. So it's like hands that could pick things up. And it's like, why are breast pumps made out of robotic hands? I mean, the reason is that it's really creepy. And people just wouldn't accept that idea is super creepy. You know, like, everyone's always like, why don't you just make it well, like a baby? And like, would you put a fake baby on your breast to express milk? Like, it needs to be a little removed? Since but, so what I did was, I ordered a kit of silicone and a robotics kit. And I started trying to build something that would feel better than a breast pump, but still work. I mean, within about one hour, I ran into my own limitations of like, how to use these things, because I have no idea about robotics. So I called a friend Daniel, who is a roboticist. And he introduced me to a friend of his who worked at Swinburne University as a prototyping coach. So basically, students in any of the design subjects who have their final projects and want to create, you know, a piece of furniture or a piece of metal or whatever, he's there in the lab, helping them make it so he knows how to make stuff. And both of these guys are lovely. And so we sort of started working together on creating prototypes of breast pumps, that would feel better. I'm also married to a GP. So we had all of this like, insight into how the breast actually works, from sort of a medical perspective. And so the four of us sort of sat around and just started pumping out prototypes. And then every time I had to press pump, I would use Yep, try it out. And then we go back, 3d printed another model, pour some silicone, try it again. And so we did that, like 20 times. That was like the creative bid. And then after that, it's all just been full on, you know, manufacturing, fundraising, websites, kind of thing. But yeah, so that's where I got to. So yeah, the products called what we ended up doing was actually just creating a soft silicone pad that stretches over most breast pumps, we didn't even redesign the breast pump. Because we figured this would, you know, help more people, they've already got a breast pump. And then you just, you know, get this cushion and attach it over the top. So that's what we've been doing. And we launched that in Australia last year, and just launched in the US last month. So that's pretty exciting, helping a lot of women with pain and discomfort. And then we're still also working on other products in the background as well, because it's all good on Yeah, that is such an awesome story. Because it's like you've literally solved a problem, not just for yourself, but for everyone. Like that is so awesome that you can do that. You've got the skin. Yeah, you can. Yeah. I love. Well, I mean, it's not it's not always so straightforward. Like, the first product that we did. You know, it worked for about 75% of people, which firm in the medical world is insane, right. But about a quarter of people were finding they were collecting less milk because the cushion was kind of dulling the sensation of the pump. And so then we were like, Okay, what can we do about that? So we created a cushion that was thinner, or had less material on it, you know, sent that out to the people it wasn't working for dudes were like, yes, great, you know, and then we're like, doesn't fit everybody's nipple size, because everybody's different. So then we added more sizes. So you're like, just constantly trying to find something that works for everyone. And I think it's really easy to be like, oh, yeah, you just like created this thing. And then it works for everyone is amazing. It's never quite like back lossy. Yeah, there's a lot to improve. And we, you know, we think we're sitting now at like about 90%. So we can help nine out of 10 women, and one out of 10 Unfortunately, we you know, we're still working on it. But you know, we can't help but what what we do instead is have free trial for 30 days. So you try it if it doesn't work, send it back, we'll refund you, you know, so we're not trying to add stress, but his you know, that's kind of our way of, you know, making sure that we're actually helping women rather than rather than sort of making it worse. So yes, yeah. Interesting process Yeah. When did you sort of first start this process? What year was Yeah, yeah, it took about six months to do the design, and then about 18 months to do the manufacturer. And really the holdup was not our design skill or manufacturing capability, it was money to be honest and time. So, you know, you've got jobs. Everybody's got jobs. And I feel like it's like, it was it. Who was it that said, like, you need A Room of One's Own? Is it Virginia Woolf, if I got the wrong English author, anyway, someone was like, you know, women will never be able to write until they have an income and space. And, you know, Shakespeare's sister wouldn't have become Shakespeare just by virtue of being female, right? Because women, you know, you, you don't have the luxury of being able to fail and have constant monies anyway, we all have jobs. And we had to sort of do it in our own time. So if we were employed by milkdrop, now, with funding, we probably would have only taken us sort of four weeks to do a design, and then it might have been like, nine months for manufacture. Yeah. So so we sort of had this process of like, you know, in our spare time making up these prototypes, testing them, redesigning them, you know, maybe we did like once, once a week, or once, once every two weeks or something, you know, then we'd go and try and patent that, and then take that around, apply for grants to get funding, and take that around to investors, or accelerators try and prove that there's a market without having a product to sell, you know, convincing people that this was worth investing in. And then, you know, finally, we managed to, you know, accumulate enough funding and investment to then manufacture it. So it wasn't that it took that long it was that it took that long to get them the money to pay for it. You know, the tooling just for these just for reference, it's like 40,000 bucks to make it all. Yeah, right. Like, if you're an existing company, that's fine. But if you're starting from scratch, that's a lot of money. You know, that's not, you know, you know, doesn't come pass by easily. And so yeah, so that's kind of what it took. So it was sort of two years from the idea to being in market. And then you know, it's really been a year and a half for us to even get enough traction to, for people to know about us, like the marketing is almost harder than the design. Yeah, it was like that was the I don't say that was the easy because, yeah, well, it's like, and then all this other stuff that has to happen afterwards. Yeah. Back when? And if this is appropriate question to ask. So you can you can say no, if you want, but because you've got money from other people, or then are you accountable back to them to show what you've made? And everything? And how does that feel really, like? nerve wracking? Sort of? Like, I don't know if that's the word. But yeah, I feel pressure from that. Yeah. You can make it feel like it's full of pressure. You know, like, It's always, it's always a challenge to report back. But, you know, we, we have really good investors, we, you know, we have mostly private investors, and then also the Victorian Government. And I think it's a challenge. Yeah, like, we read, like a monthly report back, right. And every time like, something doesn't quite go, right, you always find yourself wanting to put a spin on it and catching yourself being like, no, just tell it how it is. Because next month, you know, you're not going to be able to say this, I think actually, I've, I've been able to take a lot of the lessons from working in big teams on big engineering projects from that, that one of the good things about, you know, working in construction, or on big projects is that if it's a good culture, there's no blame, you just say what the situation is, you know, nobody's made a mistake on purpose, or like, you know, your prototype hasn't failed on purpose, you're not being lazy, you're not misusing money, you're trying your best to get something over the line, it's really hard to do if it was easy to be done. So you just have to kind of make sure you don't fall into that trap of like treating your investors. Like it's the media, you know, that it has to be a spin on a story or whatever. So yeah, I'm pretty blunt with where things are at. We share as much information as we can, as we have. And the usually the way it works is the investors are far less worried about the things I'm worried about than I am, you know, usually the, you know, usually they're saying things like, no, no, you got this just keep going, like, you know, tell us about your thinking about this. And then they want to talk you through it. It's not like a reprimand relationship or a bad boss. It's like a group of people who want you to succeed. You got to tell them what's going on if you if you want their help. It's kind of Yeah, it's almost that nurturing sort of environment where if you've got a problem and no, because I guess they've had many years experience in business or it'll the diary is they'd be like, well, actually, this isn't a big deal like you know, Oh, it is easy. Yeah. Have you looked at this? Like, how come you haven't looked at this? Like, oh, I didn't even know that was the thing, you know? So I think like, it's just, it depends how you frame it. And it could I think, if I was a little younger, and you know, hadn't learned all of those other lessons, it would be an easy trap to fall into, but I think, yeah, with a little bit of experience, like, oh, no, this is an asset. This is awesome. Just gonna, you know, be grateful that these people want to be involved in this project. And, you know, ask them for as much help as I can get and communicate as often as I can. So I think, yeah, we've we've been really lucky. I'm sure it's not like that with everyone. And I think also by the fact that this product is about women's health, which is, you know, notoriously under served and chronic pain for women is overlooked in or you attract, you attract a certain kind of investor, right? You know, they're already, they're already thinking differently. And they already probably really care about this. So it's a bit of a filter, as well, like, it can be frustrating, because like, oh, how come I'm not getting more investment? How can I seem like the same person as me, also called Alex, but a dude, you know, raising twice the amount and half the time kind of thing. And you can get annoyed at that. But then when you look at who you've got the quality's so good, that you think well, you know, yeah, so yeah, no complaints. Yeah. Good question. I know I sorry. That's okay. I didn't I didn't pre warn you with that. Well, I just thought of it as we're talking about, I thought, I wonder what's that? Like? Yeah, sounds like can be stressful. There's always there's always things that are going well, and things that aren't going well. And yeah, you've just got to like bite the bullet and talk about things not going well. Because if you were in that position, you'd want to know and help us. You'd want to be able to help to like having kids, right, because they don't tell you what's going on. How can you help them? Yeah, that's a whole new conversation. Oh, man. So speaking of children, you mentioned that you started this out with you when you had your daughter. So how old is your daughter now? She would be she's studying for next month or Yeah, right. Yep. And that's your only child. You've got one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we had. We have tried since but I just keep having miscarriages. Which sucks. I'm so sorry. Oh, that's okay. It happens to lots of people. So, yeah, it's just it's been a fairly big gap. Maybe we'll be able to have another one. Maybe not a I've got seven years between mine Never say never. Yeah, exactly. So just sort of taking it easy with that, I think, you know, the last few years of the pandemic and also trying to grow business and life's busy my husband just is just about to sit his final exam for for, you know, final final, the last one after, you know, 15 years of study. So that's all been pretty full on like, we're just yeah, just kind of trying to take it easy. What's your sort of your days look, like you said before about how you all had jobs? And that what is your main thing now? Yeah, so about a year ago, I moved to almost be more than that. Actually. I moved into full time on milkdrop. And, but most people working with us are part time. We have a fully remote team and I call hyper or extreme flexibility with hours. So we have some people, you know, brilliant people doing marketing and content for us. And, you know, two of the three of them are mothers. And, you know, my view is like you work whatever works for you. So if you need time off, you take out if you don't, whatever, if you want to work at midnight, that's fine. If you want to work at 7am that's also fun. No rules, and no requirements, as long as you're getting the work done. And as we all know my There's a total machines when it comes to getting work time because we don't have time for bullshit. Yeah, so like, you know, for the parents, that's what we do, and then we try to make sure that, um, for people who aren't parents that, you know, they are able to use that flexibility how they want as well. So it's not just sort of something that's provided to one group of people. Because they made a choice. It's everyone gets that. And it seems to be working quite well so far. But it's super early days. Yeah. So my days, I like to have a bit of structure, actually. So I'm Monday to Thursday, you know, nine to five. My daughter has daycare here, Monday to Thursday. And then on Fridays, I'll do I'll sort of do a few hours for sort of Friday over the weekend, like customer service stuff and other things that need to happen on the weekends. So I kind of break that up. But I try not to do anything too taxing. And yeah, the days like, I work best in the morning. So I do like the hard work in the morning. And then I moved to the kind of Bitsy tasks that you have as a business in the afternoon. We have our design meetings once a week, always. And that's with those same two boys that I was working with at the start. He Yeah, we basically try to either prototype, a design that we're working on during that week. So we've got something to report back. So we sort of operate on like a weekly cycle. But both of those guys are working in other jobs as well. But yeah, we that that seems to be working quite nicely and moving fairly quickly. Yeah, and then you know, it's a total mess whenever grad is sick, or were sick, or you No, okay, closers for some reason, or they issue random public holidays, you know, which is great for people with jobs, but not if you and your business. So I sort of feel like on average, we're getting about four days a week worth of work. So I've just tried to get really, really efficient. And some days that works better than others. Most of the time, I feel like a failure. And then every time, every now and again, something good happens. And like oh, maybe I'm not such a terrible business person after all. Yeah. But I did learn one of the great things I did learn from one of our investors and mentors is to print out good reviews that you get, or comments that people send you. And when you're having a crappy day, just kind of read through those. And yeah, that does make you feel better. Because it's kind of like, you know, the whole reason I started with because I was annoyed that women weren't being you know, that the, you know, this dis product shouldn't be hurting women, and we could do a better job. And so, you know, when you hear that back that you've changed, your product has meant that someone isn't having pain anymore, and they're able to feed their baby breast milk, which is what they really wanted to do. And you know, they were feeling awful, because they felt like they might have to give up and now they don't you know, that kind of stuff like, Oh, that's really cool. You know, it's nice to have that effect. Yeah. And never underestimate that. Because that I went through an experience with my breastfeeding journey, where at one point, I was producing so much milk that my baby couldn't latch, and then they suggested that I use a shield, which was great, because he could latch but then it decreased my amount of production because the baby wasn't touching my breast. So it was an I went through a lot of issues. And when things finally were good, you know, it changes your whole world. Like it literally changed everything, you know, so I can imagine. I mean, yeah, I was lucky. I never struggled with a lot of pain. But I had other issues. So yeah, it's, it's anything about like the context that you're operating in, right? Like you've got a woman here who got pregnant, stay pregnant, managed to have a baby. And then if things aren't going super well with feeding or any other part of their babies, like it is full on, especially in that first week or two after birth. Yeah. So no matter how you had the birth, no matter how the baby is going, something is going wrong, like nobody cruises through this period. And so this is the situation that you're in. And this is like, this is the point where we're kind of trying to help and so I think like, that always makes it pretty real. Sometimes, like you you kind of wish you were involved in something more fun. Like you know, when you go to do your marketing campaigns, you're like, Oh, I'm so sick of it being such a downer all the time and Be like, No, you just feel like that because you're four years past it. But back in that moment, yeah. Any help is good to help and numb. Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because yeah, like when you. I mean, I had a lot of experiences with postnatal depression and I'm sure you know, all these little things that were happening but all all combining to make this a massive oh yes that's it isn't it I remember with my my second baby because he was born, he wasn't early, he had IUGR. So in my when he was being made, my placenta sort of stopped working about 26 weeks, but no one brought that up. So he was completely formed all these organs and everything like his lungs were mature everything but he had no meat on his bones. Basically, he was in a bind. So he was four pound 14, and he come out. And it was like, you can see every breath he took, you could see his diaphragm second, like it was, it was like I couldn't I had these ideas that I you know, I exclusively breastfed my first baby. And I said, Yep, I'm going to do this with my second. But right from the very beginning, he had to be on formula because he just had to be fed straightaway through this, like the tube, the gavel into his stomach. So they had me pumping. That's all I was doing was pumping. And luckily, they had an electric pump at the hospital. The only other pump would ever use was a manual one. And that was Yeah. Oh my gosh. Just not fun at all. Yeah, and it was like, they just like just just do it. And I was like, But how, like, she was just like, we'll the TV and and show you this video. That must be like 50 years old. And I don't know. And every time I'm not, I'm not begging, you know, midwives at all. But just about every person had their own idea of how to attach and how to latch and how to hold and how to listen. Oh, man like to listen to? Exactly, yeah. Yeah. You know, I was in the public system. So every time you rang that bell, you didn't know which nurse, you're going to say, you know, it's the same in practice sounds like, you know, it was the same credit. Yeah, it was just like, my head, I want to go home. I just want to go home and just do it one way, just pick away and do it. But then it has the questioning, like well, is one way that I'm choosing the right way? And like, this is the biggest consequence decision in my life, because I've got this baby I'm responsible for now. Like, if I do it the wrong way. Will they get enough food? Like, it's just, it's just, yeah, I Your story is not unfamiliar. Like? Yeah, we've spoken with a lot of women now. And that that whole, like, conflicting information? Thing is, yeah, it's everywhere. Yeah. And not always ending up with the best outcome for the for the mom or the baby. So yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. They used to say to us, when we'd ask, what what do we do? What should we do with the baby? And they'd go every baby's different. And yeah, would drive us crazy. Good. We know that's true now, but at the time, when you've got no idea what you're doing, it's your first baby. And you just want someone to tell you what to do. Yeah, yeah. In the end, my husband said, If I hear every, every baby's different one more time, I'm bloody going like he was just like, yeah, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, find sites beautiful thing, but gee whiz? Well, you know, like, one of the reasons why we don't know that much is because we don't invest in the research to learn that much. So there's, there's, you know, good evidence base about skin to skin and good evidence base about a whole lot of things, but not, not everything. And so quite a bit of it is kind of left up to people's individual experience with what they've seen. Or just kind of intuition about stuff, and that's fine. But if if we researched the lactating breast, like we researched other body functions, you know, the same amount of money, we would know a lot more, there would be much more coherent programs, and you know, you wouldn't have be left feeling like that. So, you know, part of this is, is, you know, we have no problem saying All women should breastfeed and it's best for baby blah, blah, blah, but then, you know, where are the programs and funding to support having someone there in the hospital who's not run off her feet looking after all the other babies that just got born? You know, where's the funding to provide you homecare, like we do have these people who are super skilled and really good at what they do, but we didn't have funding for them, like, you know, so I think a lot of this is kind of see like problems around the places like, are these problems that can feasibly be solved, you know, in science are these like problems that can feasibly be solved with just a bit of cash? Yeah. And it's just you haven't chosen to put our cash in that area. It's a little cynical, but I think that's true. No, I agree with that. I disagree with that. Also something cynical, if it was a man's problem, like to put more money, we wouldn't even have to have to have babies, it will be done. Yeah. Yeah, that's another one. So what I want to ask, and I'm not asking you to give away your secrets or anything, but with the other you said you're working on some other things? Are they things that are born from that similar? Like experiencing something or seeing something that you've you've got this passion? Yeah. Yeah, it's all about breast pumps. At the moment. I'm like, we would love to do more products. Like one big area that I've been really interested in is incontinence. It's another one of these, like, everybody has it. You know, so, but, you know, what we're really good at what we've learned how to do is silicone products and, and things that have something to do with the human body. So yeah, so we're still working on breast pumps. And we're working on creating a, you know, these are just cushions at the moment, but we're working on a full breast pump. So that's what we're doing. But in terms of how that works, I'll probably keep that under wraps. It'll be a while before that. So yeah, that's what we've been working on. Which has been fun. Card. Yes. Fun slash card. Yeah. When you say about incontinence, it's really funny, all of a sudden, it's almost like it's cool to have the incontinent Sandy's and it's like, where were they 15? A woman who needed them. Right? Yeah. Another reason why we need more women in STEM, right, you know, that you have a habit of solving problems that you see if you don't see the problem, you know, and solve it. So I think, you know, the, this kind of world of these? Yeah, like, Where was that when I was, when I was pregnant or suffering from this, I think we'll see less and less of that as we go. Or, like, we'll start to see these problems solve more and more, as, you know, you start to see these professions that are in charge of designing things, start to have more women in them, or, you know, people who identify as women who are having those problems. So I think it's only gonna get better. But yeah, there's a lot once you start scratching the surface, you're like, oh, and that Oh, and that oh, you know, yeah. So on that, do you think that it's like, because I know, with the schools, they're always saying, you know, girls getting into STEM and all that sort of stuff? And at the other end of it having women who are the ones with the money, I guess, who are the investors? Is it sort of a bit of both? It's like, encouraging the girls to break through these glass ceilings, I suppose. Or the boys club or whatever. Yeah. But then at the other end, having having the women who sit who might say, Yes, I'm passionate about this, because it's a women's issue, and I want to support it. Yeah. It's like, my grandpa always used to say, like, follow the money. He was Lithuanian, adult, very thick accent and, you know, follow the money, where's the money coming from? And it kind of does make sense, like, you know, why aren't these problems solved? Because, like I said, before, you know, it could have taken us four, six weeks to make this thing and took us two years, because we had to convince people to give us the money now we were able to convince them. And that was awesome. Thank you. But there are plenty of people who aren't able to convince other people to fund to fund these sorts of things. And I think, yeah, well, you know, when you look at the proportion of startups that are led by women that are funded, it's a lot lower, like there's you can Google all of this, like it's pretty, it's pretty dire. And there's a lot of arguments why, like people say, Oh, well, there's not as many women asking and not as many women in technology. And so then you say, Yeah, but why, you know, I don't think there's anything innate about or girls and boys when they young about their problem solving abilities or their ability to design or do art or anything like that. I think it comes a bit later. Yeah. And so yeah, I think it's sort of, you know, what are we teaching them? What are we making look exciting and cool? Yeah. What? You know, you have a lot more often, people say they have more women enrolling in engineering disciplines, such as Humanitarian Engineering, and Environmental Engineering. And then we start putting all of these like stereotypes on women, like, they just want to work for their community, they want to work for environment, like, they don't want to do dirty stuff, you know, so that, that the, you know, they're a little like, flashes everywhere. I guess my point is that it's very complex. But it is, you know, multi multifactorial, which is like a fancy way of saying, we don't really know, and there's lots of things that happen. But you know, part of it is fun. Part of it is education. Part of it is society, part of it is, you know, when we're not putting enough effort into retain people, part of it is like the dropping out after having babies, because it's too hard to get back into work. Like, there's just so much stacked up. It's not really there to prevent this from happening. It's yeah, yeah, like, in a nice way, but we're living in that society, and the odds will be stacked against us, you know? Yeah. And I don't think anyone's doing it intentionally move to this new phase, where it's kind of just like, hung around. And those systems have been designed in a way that are like that, you know, no, one person in that system is like, I'm gonna push women down exam, but maybe they are, but they've never said it to me. And I haven't actually seen that. But what I have seen is, you know, maybe you go and pitch your idea. And they're like, oh, I'll just text my wife to find out how she found pumping you like, No, how about you go and investigate the market, and take a look at the opportunity. And think about this as a solution in the same way that you would investigate any other pitch or any other product, you know, maybe someone wants to auto turn petrol cars into electric cars, you wouldn't go and ask your mate who drives a car, whether or not that's a good idea, you would do your research at a, like, you know, market scale. So it's stuff like that, where, you know, it's not intended to, to be sexist, or whatever, but it kind of ends up like that way, because we have all of these biases. So I think, yeah, you know, it's hard to hard to combat but there are people who are trying to combat it, you know, there are plenty of groups where they're actively, you know, recruiting, not majority female investors, necessarily, but trying to find founders who have women, you know, running their companies or whatever, and presenting those to people who have the cash. You know, there's funds, government funds that are set up, to try to sort of make up that difference that women don't see in funding. So if they're, if they're receiving, you know, 50% of the funding or less of a man, you know, equivalent man, so like, a man is able to raise a million dollars, and the woman has to raise 500,000, or something like that, then the government's are stepping in to try to make up that gap. You know, there's plenty of people doing lots of good things. So it'll work. But, you know, sometimes it needs a bit of a kick up the bum to Yeah, but that is good that, you know, everyone's I feel like everyone's aware of, like you said, the systems that have are in place, and if we go to my hands, like, they're floating around us, it's not like someone standing there, you know, enforcing all this stuff. It's just the world we live in. It is and it doesn't make it better. And in some ways, it makes it harder, because you can't put your finger on it. Like, you know, I, I sort of, it's like, you know, back in the 60s, if you had a person who was working, you know, who happened to be a woman who's probably a secretary and, and someone hits her on the bum, like, clearly sexist harassment. Yeah, that never happens. It doesn't happen so much. These days, it's sort of all under the, you know, feels like it's more under the radar, it's not as easy to point to. Obviously, there's lots of cases where that's not the, you know, the case, and there's a spectrum and, you know, really serious stuff happening, you can see it all over the news. And not on the news. But but for the sort of like little tiny things that are happening during the day, like, you know, you can't call out all of it. But you do know, when you look at it empirically, the results are that women are getting funded, less women's problems are getting solved less. Women's pain is more overlooked. You know, all of this stuff on you know, when you look at it in the big picture is definitely happening. So, how do we go about addressing it? I'm not really sure. I'm sure there are much more experienced people who know more about what they're talking about. But you're part of what I don't see part of the solution that sounds like really And police, I think literally are you're in the trenches doing the work by creating these products. And by getting women involved in making these products funding these products. And I think that's fantastic. Because it has to start somewhere literally, like, it's what I always say, when I read things about how to make change, it's like, but where do you start? Like, really actually start, but I feel like what you're doing is, yeah, well, you start with what you can control, right? Like, you know, there are plenty of businesses that are aimed at trying to improve that postpartum experience or the fertility experience are plenty of them. You know, some of them are based on building up communities of women, you know, that's like what you're doing right? So that happens to be your skill, I'm not good at that. I'm not good at designing things. So this is the one thing I can change. So I think it's just, you just like, you know, you look at the all of the things that are in your sphere of concern, and you look at them the next ring down, which is your sphere of influence, you can't actually change it, but maybe you can influence it a bit. And then there's your sphere of control. So what can you do in that sphere of control that's going to have the biggest influence? And then maybe, over time, you can make that change? But I mean, it's hard. We've got, you know, cop 27, or whatever it is this happening while we're recording. You know, these people haven't been able to make change on like, such an obvious threat. So I think like, change is hard. Yeah, I think you've just got to kind of do what you can control. And hopefully don't go, you know, don't let it sort of derail you too much when it doesn't change as quickly as you'd like. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it Yeah. So when you work before you had your daughter, were you working? Like full time? Or? Yep. And then how did how did you sort of feel about that change of them, becoming a mom and having you focus almost solely on your daughter? Did you go through any sort of, I don't wanna say existential crises. But how was that experience for you? Um, I didn't find out too bad. My husband is really involved in daughter like, we definitely 5050 Maybe he's 6040 We will also at the time of the she was actually my second pregnancy, I had a first and it had ended in a stillbirth at like, 20 Something weeks. And so I was quite anxious throughout the pregnancy. And so that was my challenge. It was like, am I gonna get through this? And so we'd moved back in to mom and dad's house. And we were just all living as I know, it sounds very old school. But I'm European. I don't know, but we loved it. So we were living in my parents house had the baby, and everyone was there to help. So I didn't, it was a shock in that year. Now I've got this child and feeding wasn't going super well. But once we kind of got through that. actually really liked it. I didn't expect to I thought that I thought that I'd hate not working. But I was kind of working on milkdrop Like I had things to work on. And I've always have you know, as long as Yeah, and I wasn't 100% on the baby. So it was sort of quite balanced. I probably not remembering a whole lot of stuff. But yeah, I guess we had three adults before adults for one child. And and we had help and meals and time to walk outside and you know, if I needed a shower mum or dad would take Grettir if Andrew was working like it just wasn't sort of as stressful. So I think I had a lot more community. And also all of my friends had been through it too. And I'd been kind of dealt a blow beforehand. So I'd already had Add that like, oh, maybe you can't have everything you wanted. And it's not all that easy. So when I did have that, when I did have Greta, I was just thankful that, you know, I could have a baby. So, I think, yeah, it wasn't such a big deal for me. I didn't like how when, before that, when I'd said that I was getting married, how I suddenly like people were saying, like, oh, when are you going to stop working or like, you know, or when you got pregnant, the first time I was commenting about it, and feeling like I had to go into a different part of the business to keep my job because you know, engineering can be pretty full on and so like, all of that sort of stuff. I just, again, it's like the unsaid thing, but that was more about a phase in life. And, you know, I did work in a company that really wanted women to stick around, and they really supported me and I, you know, felt very loved and included and all the rest. So it wasn't sort of that much of an issue for me, maybe that's just, yeah, maybe it's, in hindsight, I did find that I wanted to get back to working within about four weeks, as in not working, but like working on something. So I didn't, I didn't like, I'm just, you know, I didn't settle in very well to just being with my baby. Like, I found myself like walking down to the cafe, getting her sleep. And then, you know, getting out my laptop and investigating something that's silicone, you know, but that's just what worked for me. And so yeah, I was lucky enough that I could do that. And, you know, for maternity leave and all these other privileges. So, yeah. But, like, something that I do talk to moms about on this show is having that outlet, because we can't, I mean, I'm sure there's somebody that can but it's not may be 24/7. Thinking about my children, like, I'd go insane. Yes. Yeah, I think that that's normal. Like, I mean, we also I think when you, you know, you have Yeah, like identity is an interesting one. Because, I mean, I had Greta at 35. So you know, you've got your life, like, I didn't change my name in marriage, because I've always been called by my last name, all the way through school and uni. So I kind of was my identity, I had already worked for a decade, like I'd, you know, felt like I'd sort of fought my way through a fairly male, I wouldn't say I don't say dominated because they weren't aggressive. But yeah, majority male environments like so I sort of felt like I had, like, gotten to this point. And then actually what, what I had trouble with was, then all of a sudden, you're sitting on the end of a pump, you're like, oh, no, wait, I'm just a mammal that's here to be milked for the benefit of my offspring. That felt like shit. Sorry, that felt terrible. No, you can say that. Yeah, I think, you know, that's why I sort of started to design that because I felt like, well, no, hang on. Women who have been through this shouldn't be feeling like this, I think I did a survey at the very start to see if anyone else had these issues. And for every 10 women, seven had nipple pain or discomfort using pumps, and eight felt like a cow. So like, I expected the physical thing. But I didn't expect everyone to feel that way emotionally about their product. And the other thing that I didn't like was that people are on pumps, because they're trying really hard to feed their baby breast milk, because that's what they want to do, if that's what they want to do. So, but then they're kind of like, given this experience where like, this thing's wheeled in at them, they're not really explained how to use it. It's sort of like a punishment, but these women should be held up, you know, like they should be, they should be held up on pedestals, these people are sitting on the end of a machine to milk their breasts to give breast milk, like they've trying really hard, really, really hard. Especially, you know, some of them pumping like 12 times a day, they're up in the middle the night turning this machine on, you know, I think so that kind of bothered me. And I think, um, yeah, I did struggle with that. And that's why I created these. But I kind of didn't necessarily see it as just motherhood or my particular reaction to it. I saw it more as, here's another case of where women's experience is overlooked. And, and I didn't want to also, you know, be too critical of these restaurant companies, because they're trying to design something that is affordable, that fits lots of people, the human race is super diverse, like, how do you get something that works for everybody's anatomy and physiology? Like it's not an easy thing to do? And people expect a lot you know, off their products for a certain price. Like I get how they've come into being and I'm glad that they exist, whatever, but I just felt like, you know, we could we could do a better job. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now that's so good. Like, I can definitely relate to this the cow feeling and that then feeling feeling like literally like an animal. Like, like you said, you're supposed to, like if you shouldn't be revered if you're feeding your child and then you go out of your way to get the milk out of your body to continue feeding your child you should you shouldn't be held up on a pedestal, you know. And just like I saw, I see it all the time on like, people I follow on Instagram, but all these particularly in America, they've got an something's going on over there. With the they don't have as much maternity leave or any maternity leave. Like it's not set up, like here in Australia. Yeah, it's tied to their employment. Yes. Yeah. And, and the fact if anyone actually wants to pump, it's like, what do you want to do? What are you talking about? Like, it's not actually something that, like employers give any credit to. And I know from myself as a, as a musician, like, I've had to pump a lot of times, like most like gigs, when you're away from the kids for, you know, more than at least three hours, you know, you're gonna have to, and being in toilets or out in the car, and it's like, you just feel like you're like shamed, shunned away from everybody? Yeah. Oh, I don't know. It's just it's pretty rough. I think. I mean, America is a fascinating place, right? Like, they, they have these conditions, but then they also have, you know, there's an entire company set up there, they're called Minerva. And they create pods for lactation. So you can pop them in stadia, or you can put them in the airport or at university campuses, or downtown or whatever. And there's another one company called Milk stock, which will collect your milk pumped milk, like say you're away for work for a couple of days. And you know, you need like, you need to pump if you're feeling you need to keep that milk supply up. So, though, pick up your milk and send it back to your baby, wherever they are, like so there's all these like, it's, it's not like, yeah, the US is a very diverse and fascinating place. But yeah, they have terrible maternity like terrible government parental leave schemes and like people that kind of on their own, but it doesn't mean they have these other services around and businesses that kind of help them sort of difficult to grasp sometimes coming from coming from Australia, we've definitely learned a lot starting to sell these cushions over there. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Something else I like to talk about is the topic of mum guilt. And I find this really fascinating one because some mums I've had on have actually had to google it to find out what it was. And I think that is brilliant. And I wish that was me. And what's your thoughts on mum guilt? What it is or how to deal with it? Like do you have you experienced it? Or did you have to Google it? Like, where are you at? Yeah, I mean, mom guilt depends how you define it. Like, do I think I'm being a good mother to my daughter? Yes. Have I felt guilty that I'm not around for her sometimes, but I'm not not around for her. Like she's, she's living her best life? For sure. Yeah. She has a lot of people looking after. So like I said, My husband is there a lot. You know, she's, she's got a lot of friends. And because we live in a small town, the community around her is quite strong. You know, she knows her friend's parents, that kind of thing. So I think, you know, she's having a good childhood, she's safe. She's learning lots. She's, you know, she's pretty lucky. So I don't feel guilty about my parenting. But I do have the mom guilt about work. So, you know, am I working fast enough? Am I working hard enough? am I delivering for these people who invested in us like do they realize that I am only working nine to five? You know, am I okay with that? Because there's this culture in that kind of startup world of, you know, working 100 hours a week, which you just can't do. You know, it also comes when And you know, my daughter is sick, and I can't work that day. So there's this like, constant feeling of never getting through the pile of stuff you got to get done. And I've had to learn ways to deal with that, and not get riled up by it so much. But yeah, I find that side of it really, really hard. But in terms of like, am I being a good enough mom compared with the moms I see on Instagram? Yeah, most of the stuff that I see on there is like material stuff. You know, like, are they dressed in the right clothes? Well, no, she's always filthy. But that's because she's been playing outside in the mud, which I think is a good thing. So I think I just, yeah, I don't really have that too much. I did feel guilty that I wasn't feeding her properly. But since she's gotten older, and, you know, we, I was sort of worried like, Oh, um, you know, breast milk is, you know, it says here that it's better for them, and you know, better for their development. And like, what if I'm stunting our growth or, or making a too big? Or like, what if, you know, she's not able to, you know, develop emotionally because she's been fed formula, all that stuff, like at four, there is nothing wrong with this kid. And it's, like, I think, I think I sort of, in the sort of emotion of that time, I think I took overall statistics, too seriously. And, you know, I'm sure there's cases where that's the truth, but you know, you're not looking at it holistically, like, you know, she's got, you know, she's lucky enough to have parents who love her and look after her and she's fine. So I think I'm, I'm much less concerned about that. And that that was like a fairly big lesson. And so, you know, when you go through all those milestones of kid hood, you know, toilet training, really, like we're going through breeding right now, like, I'm not too fussed about it, I just figure well, you know, she'll figure it out. When she's ready. We'll just keep teaching, she seems to like to learn. You know, the only time I get upset is when she's not nice to other kids. And I think I'm kind of a psychopath. But But like, you know, all of that is fixable as well. So I think like, it's not pretty age appropriate. Yeah, I just don't get too stressed about that. And I think she'll, you know, she'll be fine. She's, she's, she's not the one that, you know, we need to be improving things for. Hmm, no, that's really great answer. Yeah. And I'm wondering if I were going before when you talked about living with your parents and having perhaps that, that village that we don't sort of, say so much every day now. And you talk about coming from a European background? I wonder if that I'm not a psychologist, by the way, I'm just I have ideas and I say them out loud. I wonder if that's contributed, like that level of support has allowed you to relax and mother the way you want to mother and not feel any outside? You know, expectations from outside? Because you're really secure in the unit that you've got. Potter? Yeah, I think so. And I've never really been particularly like that concerned about peer, maybe peer pressure or like, perception of others. I think I the thing I do care about is if someone felt that I was being unkind or untruthful or mean or anything like that, I would be totally distressed. But in terms of like, someone judging me to be parenting the right way, or cool, or any of that stuff, I've never cared, and I don't think I ever will. And so, I think that really helps because going into parenthood, you're just like, well, this is, you know, this is what I think is good for my kid. And I just look around at the other parents and I see and I like, take what I like and don't do what I don't like, and, you know, every kid's different, every parent's different. Everyone's juggling their own thing. Like I actually think there's probably less judgement than we think and a lot of that actually, coming from ourselves. So yeah, I mean, I've got really supportive parents. You know, my mum's a super practical, like, pragmatic woman. And, you know, sometimes I'd go to her and say, How do you think I'm doing this? Right? She's like, after worrying about it's fine, you know? Like, she just sort of shuts it down. You're like, Alright, cool. And you're like, well, that's kind of drama. Yeah, that's, that's obvious. Yes. I think that's nice. Yeah. It's nice to have that grounding. Because I think if you're like on your phone, and you start Googling this stuff, you're like, Oh, my God, I'm doing all these terrible things. And I think, you know, you can't hear one thing that made me feel better was like, okay, You look at like Louis, for example, in those parents, like super involved in their kids lives and into their imaginations or whatever, but then you realize it's a seven minute episode. Seven minutes. So you've got like, 24 hours times, 60 minutes, whatever that is, like, you just can't perform to what's out there. So as long as you're keeping them safe, they know they can come to you, if they've got a problem. They get to try to do things and meet different people nurture their curiosity, like I just, you know, we're going to stuff them up in some way. You can't predict it. Like you just kind of wait to see what happens and try to build there. Like, I think you just got to build the sort of building blocks of coping and joy and curiosity and hope that they come to you when they have problems. That's, that's, yeah, no, I really like that. It's very, like I can, I can tell you a lot like your mom like that pragmatism and straightforward. It's like, Yep, it's fair. I mean, I'm not really Yeah, like, I still. So we live, like I said, we live in Brighton, there's a lot of people who are very good at sport here, I'm not one of them. But the kids around here are very free. You know, they're the bike track, they ski, they climb, they do all sorts of stuff. And they're very, I would say, like, physically aware, like, physically pretty good. And so, and some of the other parents are a lot better at this than I am like, they'll let their kids you know, experiment like, you know, ride down that steep slope that ends in a, you know, Cliff, and they'll be totally fine with that. And I'm like, Oh, my God, this is my group is child. I don't want to know how to self I just wanted to be competent, you know, so I definitely have issues with that. But I also know that if she learns her limits now, it'll be better for her later. So yeah, I mean, you know, I'm not perfect. No, apparently, is. It is that balance, isn't it? It's because that's the thing. We still have to sleep at night, you know, even if they want to do like, jump off the roof. It's like, well, hang on a sec. Oh, that's where I draw the line. You know? Yeah. You gotta hit boundary. Yeah. Like, my, my boys are so active in so into everything. And yeah, they're great. I just let them go to the point where I don't feel comfortable. It's like, yeah, I figure. If they think they can do it, they probably can. And if they're willing to give it a go, that probably means it will go okay. Yeah. And if they don't know, then like, I think where I draw the line is like, how they treat other people. So I think that stuff I try to come down fairly firm on. And sort of, yeah, treating other people with respect to being kind and all of that, but like in terms of everything else. Just go for it. We've met a few broken out. That's quite a lot, isn't it? Yeah. The Rite of Passage. Yeah, so I wanted to, I wanted to ask you, back in the beginning, we talked, you mentioned a little bit about how art and science used to be really close together. And you mentioned a little bit in your email that you'd send to me, and it really got me thinking, at what point did these two sort of practices for one of a better word start to go away from each other? You know what I mean? Because you're right rennet. The Renaissance period was massively, massively science, all of that. Yeah, no thinking. And then art somewhere has just floated off into this thing. That's, it's unnecessary for pretty much everything. Things need to be designed, like the designer of art, but then almost the I don't want to say the frivolous element of art, because it's not about probably seen like that, in terms of a capitalist society. So things sort of, yeah. What's your take on that? I think it's shocking that we don't fund it more like one of the sort of down point down. Down points for me, it was I don't know if it's last year, the year before when we started defunding, pure mathematics, and arts degrees and things because they don't have practical application. And as someone who is in the business of practical applications, I think that is the stupidest thing that we could do as a country. You know, our, our new ideas, the things we're going to be using in 30 years time come from people doing art, we're doing pure Mathematics or doing pure? You know, even studying history like these are these are things that, you know, don't have like a monetizable tangible outcome, yet they're absolutely critical, you know, yeah, they're so linked. The idea that universities have to beg industry to do research projects, because the only research projects that have value are ones that industry can use. I just, I just think it's disgusting. Into You know, we've, we are a country that has benefited off, you know, really strong science for such a long time. And then, I don't know, 2015 20 years ago, we started defunding it now with like, the lowest spend on research and development as a proportion of GDP in in the whole OECD, I think, you know, that is really short sighted to me, yeah, when it cut in. So that's just like the, that's just, you know, if you think about it as a spectrum from like, engineering, through mathematics, or applied mathematics, mathematics, and then you get to these humanities and art, like, you know, we're just, we're struggling in applied mathematics right now funding that. And to me, that's all wrong. In terms of, I think, you know, there are people who are mixing these together. And, but it feels more like a luxury than common place, you know, it might be like one artist in residence, might come in and do a few research projects or something like that, but it's not ever part of how we function so much. And I think that's a real shame. And I think it's going to bite us in the air soon. Maybe it already is. And I think art is really important for communicating, and exploring how we feel about things, I think that is responsible for, you know, going into the sort of imaginary world and dreaming up what things could look like. And if you can't dream up what they look like, how can you possibly make them? Yeah, so yeah, I think it's, I think it's really important. I used to I once had this workshop, a guy in, in our company was working with some city designers, and government, people who are in charge of designing cities. And he used to run these workshops for people. And on day two or three, he would put a creative writing piece up on the walls, like he would go home and write this story about the future of this city, from the perspective of a person, and then the whole exercise in the workshop would get these, you know, very pragmatic people to go and highlight the things in that story that kind of like, got them thinking. And then you know, and then the next the next part of it was like, Okay, well, what could we create today that would help us test whether that idea could exist? Now that whole exercise came from him being able to do some really, really beautiful creative writing that got people thinking, and so, yeah, to me, like, all of that is critical. And, you know, and yeah, just because it's not monetizable doesn't mean it doesn't have value. And you can argue that the case for so many other different things, like just because our ecosystem is not monetizable doesn't mean it doesn't have trillions of dollars of value in all of the things it does for us clean air, clean water, all of these, you know, safe climate to live in, you know, yet we devalue them because we can't monetize them straightaway. So I think that that's a real issue that we're going to have we're facing at the moment, and we're going to have to get our heads around, you know, the value of things that are intangible. Anyway, that's my rant on it. Ya know, I look honest, I don't know how to fix it. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Like it really frustrated? The hell out of me in COVID? And I know, you're probably in Victoria, you have a lot worse with the lock downs. And we did. But the thing that shocked me was that the sport kept going, like the all of the AFL footballers, could travel around Australia do what they want, but all of the arts like, at a very basic level, like I had gigs canceled, you know, and then you've got people like, more people traveling into state to do concerts, they couldn't do it. And then all sudden, you'd have 40,000 people at a football match. And I was like, What is going on? And Devin said to me, it's because it doesn't make as much money or you know, that's dumb, money stuff. But you look at this stuff that we look at the things that we identify ourselves as even as a culture like they're not, I mean, sport is a part of it, but it's there's a huge cultural value to these things. And even within the arts. Like I was listening to Richard Flanagan, the authors speak about the value of writing versus film. He's not saying that films would be de invested in, but he was just saying like, you know, Australian authors, like we have an enviable, enviable, you know, culture of writing here, which actually is a very, it sounded like it was a fairly new thing like Australia used to be looked at as like an outpost of British writing, right? Like, yeah, British authors will write, and then Australians will buy it. And then somewhere along the way, they started investing in Australian stories. And, you know, it's been remarkably successful, but we've had the any funding, and it's easier, just like, well, there's all these parts of the arts that are so critical to who we are and what we do. And I just, I think we've kind of like skewed over to this, like, you know, practical, which is great. I don't just obviously, I'm benefiting from it. But I just, it just makes me a little bit sad. And yeah, I sort of, yeah, remember this one? I had this friend at uni. Who's, who was? Who was talking to his dad? He was like, oh, yeah, I've got this friend Alex. And his dad was like, oh, yeah, what does she do? And he was like, A, she's studying engineering and commerce. And then his dad was like, oh, charming. And so my friend, my friend told me this, and I was like, super offended at the time, because like, today, you know, I'm doing all these great things. And then, as I've gotten older, I'm like, Oh, I get your point, like, things are not things are very practical things that are very useful, but like, what am I actually contributing to? Like, what am I really learning? Like, am I actually getting an education? Or am I just like, you know, learning how to get stuff done, which is a useful skill, but, you know, shouldn't be at the expense of people. You know, interpreting the world and thinking about how I'm, you know, telling stories and thinking about how things could be different imagining how things could be different, which is where I see, you know, arts or arts could be if they were funded better. Yeah, no, I totally agree with all that. It's just like, I think they cut the CSIRO. Like, they just was at the Liberal government that did that. I can't remember when it happened. Yeah, and I just think, oh, like you said, it's gonna bite us in the ass. And it might already be doing that. But there has to come a point where all of a sudden, they go off sheet. We've stuffed this up like, yeah, and this obsession with everything happening, like you said, the money, the monetization, if you can't make money out of it. It just diminishes the value of it so much. And that really, is something that really annoys me. Yeah, but I mean, I guess like the consolation is at the community level, people still love it. Like, I mean, you remember the first gig you played when you got back? Right? Where people crying, you know, like, I think, you know, it's pretty overwhelming and even even after you know, log, it's been what, a year and a half since lockdowns here. And anytime I see live music, I'm still super emotional about it. And everyone is. So I think at the community level, like people get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's not. Yeah, I guess it's easy to get down about I'm not in that position. But yeah, yeah. I just don't like the way that you write about, like, people. It's the people in front of you that make the difference. And then the people that make the rules and tell everyone what to do, especially with all that locked down stuff, it's like it just shows you what they think of it. And it's like, even the people that aren't the performers, you know, the people that were allowed to dance but a just like everyone was frustrated at how this whole industry was being judged. I don't know just anyway, I gotta stop. No, no, I can I can unless. With when you were growing up, did you have like your mum, your mum, sort of these cultural norms that are like to sort of look at about where you learnt your stuff. I suppose you have talked about how you mum, you know that pragmatic nature to sort of? Yes, yeah, that's fine. Oh, no, that's not did she work? Like after she had you or anything like that? To sort of show you how you could do it? I guess. Yeah. Probably not at the time you realizing that, you know, you weren't taking note, but you know what I? Yeah, I mean, so I mean, I was I was I had a mom and dad. So dad is a scientist. And so he's The opposite, right? It's super intellectual, very slow pace, slow thinking, precise, like, wants to get to the bottom of everything analytical. And mom is like, on the other end of the spectrum, like, get it done, get it done quickly. 8080 20 rule, like, just come on, you know. So the balance of those, you know, I sort of feel like it's almost a superpower. Like, who am I going to channel today? Like mom or dad? Because both of them are, you know, right for the moment. Hmm. Um, so in terms of like the family balance, I guess. It like on the surface, I guess it would seem very traditional dad worked a full time job. He was like the primary breadwinner. Mum is a physio and she worked locum jobs. So she just only it was kind of like being a replacement teacher equivalent. But she was a physio. And it was with the same group every time, she was really good friends with all the people she worked with. And if someone you know, someone went away for a holiday, or whatever, she might cover them for a couple of weeks. And she actually was kind of working full time. But doing loads of work. Yeah. And what it meant. And what I've learned since is that it allowed her to like, it allowed her to work, but not be emotionally involved in it. So she loved it. She loved helping people. She loved working with those people. And then but she had no like, she didn't have to do paperwork. She didn't have to do admin, she didn't have any politics. She had no commitment. It was just like all the good parts. And I think I remember thinking like, how could you do you know, like, don't you want to like sink your teeth in a bit more. And now I'm like, Oh, I get it. This is awesome. That is fantastic. So I think that's sort of how she made that work. Whereas dad was much more like, you know, I'm, I'm here working in this job. And, you know, he loved I think he loved the job, but there was much more sort of obligation and doing the right thing and Yeah, sort of a more balanced like, you know, slog slog like, yeah, yeah, I know, he loved his work and like the the work that he was doing, and the people that he worked with, and all the rest, but it was definitely much more like, I'm going to plod through here and this is you know, I need to do this and yeah, so I think, yeah, they were different. And in terms of home life, like mum basically just made everything happen. So, you know, dad's job was pretty full on. So he, he was working and then, you know, mum looked after us. You know, all the extracurricular stuff. Got us for school organized. All it just everything for mental load. Yeah. So yeah, but I think I learned a lot from them. They had a very even sort of even decision making it home so that, you know, the power dynamic was very even. You know, I think, especially when it came to discipline. Yeah, it was it was quite even there as well. I don't know. You only kind of like, Yeah, I think they did a remarkable job. I'm grateful that I was born into the family. Yeah, can't really can't really take too much. I was lucky. Yeah. Sounds very balanced. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't perfect. No family is perfect. Like, we definitely have our flaws. I'm sure if you spoke to my husband. He really thinks I think, you know, our two families are quite different. We're definitely more argumentative. We, but it's not like a mean, argumentative. It's just a question like, What do you think about this? So you're wrong? This is how it should be that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, but, you know, strong families are the way which is very lucky thing to have, I think. Yeah, that's for sure. That sounds lovely. You made the argument. My husband and I, we like to debate topics. Yes, we come from very different headspace and backgrounds. He's a financial planner. And yeah, I don't like maths at all. And we have different views when it comes to politics. So we'll often be having discussions and the little one will say, Stop arguing. And we'll both be like, but we're not talking about this and I'm getting passionate about. Yeah, yeah. So and I think that that's kind of like it's sort of like a, you know, you're not you're not gonna get in trouble. Yeah. Sometimes I find you need to sort of argue things out to understand what you think yourself as well. And so I'd agree with that. It's nice to have that space. Yeah. Less, you're less and less able to do that in public. Oh, or you basically get shut down for a while and I offending someone or saying the wrong thing or something. So yeah, you do need those safe spaces to debate things and to, to thrash out ideas and, and like my eldest child, he's 50, nearly 15. So he's asking some interesting questions and you want to be able to feel like you can ask them. You know, like I said before, you hope that your child does come to you. And he certainly comes to us with interesting things. And we're like, Yep, okay, we can talk about that, you know. It's good. I quite enjoy a conversation like that. I enjoy conversation. Can you share with us the website? Or any socials that you active on that you? Oh, yeah, sure. So, yeah, so milkdrop pumps.com. And in the new year, we'll be running a campaign. You know, I mentioned a couple times about how there's not a lot of research in women's health, or not as much as they could be. And one of the things there's not much research on is women's nipple anatomy, and lactating or otherwise. And that's a real problem, because it means when you're trying to figure out how to design products for women, you actually don't have the basics available. A lot of research on women's nipples is older research that was about nipple attractiveness. Where should the nipple be placed on the breast? How big should it be? What shape should it be? That kind of thing. Some of that was used for cosmetic surgery, some of it was used for breast reconstruction. And then, the other area of nipple research is for social media, identifying female versus male nipples to take down the female nipples, because it's illegal to post them not illegal, but against, you know, Getty policy to show a female nipple, which we could go into another podcast about that. And so what we're trying to do is ask women to measure their nipples to help us build up an understanding of what women's bodies actually look like, so that we can design things for actual women. So we've got our campaign on that. Coming up, in the New Years, watch out for that. Be on Instagram at milkdrop, underscore pumps, or tick tock, ah, your tick, DECA. I still haven't gone there. I feel like it's too much of a big rabbit hole for me to go down. It's pretty full on news. And I'll put hyperlinks in the show notes so people can find you. Yeah, thank you so much. It's been so lovely to chat with you and to you to your achievements. And thank you for for thanks for having me. I feel like a bit of an interloper in the in the art world. But who? Artists, hopefully Yeah, to hear from someone who appreciates it, but doesn't do it. No look, and I think that the things that you've shared are extremely relevant. So please don't feel like you're, you know, I don't know what the word is. But you're not. You're not and you know, you, you've seen it, you've created something amazing. I'm really, really happy that you did it. And I'm really happy for you for what you've done to say. Good on you. And stop blabbing now to say thanks very much. Okay. Awesome. All right. Thanks again. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time moms chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parent called Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Season 2 Special Recap of Season 2 Special Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts We've come to the end of another year. As we say goodbye to 2022, I thought I'd take this opportunity to relive some of my favorite moments from the podcast over the past 12 months. It goes without saying that without my amazing guests, this show would not happen. They put so much trust in me. They open themselves up, make themselves incredibly vulnerable. They hand me all of their thoughts and their feelings. And they trust me to put it together and present it to the world to complete strangers, like you, dear listener. And it goes without saying that if it was not for you, then I probably wouldn't keep doing this podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for giving these incredible mothers your time for inviting them into your homes. And I hope that by hearing their story, it gives you courage, it gives you confidence and it sends you a big virtual hug, to know that wherever you are in the world, we're all in this together. We all feel the same way. Enjoy this special episode to round off Season 2 of The Art of Being a Mum **We discuss mental health issues, miscarriage, body image and diet culture on this recap** Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio, Georgia Fields Australian indie artist and guest in Season 1, and Scott Maxwell Father's Day episode from Season 2 Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes, together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. We've come to the end of another year. As we say goodbye to 2022, I thought I'd take this opportunity to relive some of my favorite moments from the podcast over the past 12 months. It goes without saying that without my amazing guests, this show would not happen. They put so much trust in me. They open themselves up, make themselves incredibly vulnerable. They hand me all of their thoughts and their feelings. And they trust me to put it together and present it to the world to complete strangers, like you, dear listener. And it goes without saying that if it was not for you, then I probably wouldn't keep doing this podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for giving these incredible mothers your time for inviting them into your homes. And I hope that by hearing their story, it gives you courage, it gives you confidence and it sends you a big Virtual hug, to know that wherever you are in the world. We're all in this together. We all feel the same way. And we all at times have a lot of trouble expressing that to other members of society. Thank you again. Enjoy this special episode to round off season two of the art of being a mum Kate Mildenhall, Australian writer podcaster and educator. I'd had this moment when the book came out of kind of re identifying as as as a writer and well I'm a professional out in this world. But also then I just come home and back to packing snacks and feeling guilty about them not being organic and the rest of it. Monica Crowley, Irish printmaker, oils, artist and visual artist, I find it very hard to do a picture doesn't have some kind of personal or autobiographical meaning for me, I don't just sit down and do something that looks nice. Which is it's a weird layer to put on myself. i Some people are just able to enjoy the process of painting. And but, uh, sometimes I feel like, you know, I think about it, I overthink things maybe I don't know. Is it sort of like a way of processing experiences or remembering things or making sure you remember things is anything like? Yeah, I think actually, my art is really therapy. For me, it's how I work through my own emotions. Like, initially, I know my, my print practice, I started, I was actually doing a lot of prints of places I traveled and using photographs I took him I think when I became pregnant with my first child, just this huge wash of terror and emotions. And you know, this, the weight of expectation of, you know, actually, I often say is, in my like, artist statement, like, my work is all about identity crisis. And you know, and I think that was the point when my art practice changed to become this personal thing, where I needed art to work through my own emotions to try and make sense of them. And sometimes I'll do like a body of work and then step back from it and go, Okay, now I understand what that was about. And this is an I can totally see. When I finished where it all came from, and kind of understand myself that little bit better, right. Jessica Mendez, Canadian water colorist and illustrator. Well I started was more, like I said, when, like our evenings became our own again, like when my daughter was around six months. And at that time, I've just kind of like, use the time that you need to, like, clean or do laundry and just boring things. Or if I wanted to, like sit down, I would just, you know, like scrolled the news, which is so negative during this time. So I just, I just wanted something that was fun and more positive. And it ended up being like a really good thing that I chose to do. Charlotte Conde, US artist, Illustrator, and designer. You're worrying about someone else all day, and you're meeting all their needs all day long. It feels almost like you're disappearing as a human being the roughest part for me. While it was so hard when they were little, and I felt lost sometimes was when my son went to school, though. Because then I was like, What am I gonna do with my life? Like? It's not like, they don't need me now. But it's a different need, like that kind of self sufficient. And they're going to school for a good chunk of the day. Like, what am I going to do? And that is when the art got pretty intense for me, because I needed to explore that for myself. Submit the red fin, British expat mixed media visual artist, this recurring dream, where we had a house and one day just discovered this door and opened a door. And it's this whole wing, like a house. Like there's stuff that we didn't even knew we had. And it's like, Oh, my God, when did we get bought this house this week. And you just like, I had this dream so often. And then looking into it and doing a bit of research. And they say it's when you're, there's a part of yourself that you're ignoring, and neglecting. And it's there the whole time going, come on, come discover me. And it made total sense. And like, because this is I've done, I've literally shut myself off. My interests, my creativity just was like, just not being utilized. I used to tell my kids stories and made them up and that kind of thing. So it was creative in different ways. But in terms of actually physically creating an art piece, it was totally neglected. Semi line, us mixed media, paper artist. Life feel like I could sprinkle mom guilt across the world. And that's leftover like so then after after I hear all these other people say that they don't have it. I'm like, Okay, well, what is mom guilt to me? You know, because then it's like, kind of this really interesting question of like, well, what does that mean? And? And then when do I have it? And I never have it with the creative stuff. I think it comes back to you know, when I talked about sort of the core identity of being a creative and like, this is a lifestyle, instead of a choice. Yeah. And so I think where I have had the most trouble with mom guilt is, I feel like I always want to look at each individual kid, and try and make the best choice for that kid, you know, and in the pandemic, I feel like there were no good choices. Rosie Rutherford, British clarinetist and freelance musician. What's your thoughts about mum guilt? I feel like we shouldn't have it. But I think so many of us do. I think it just stems because you care. And you want to make the right choices for your children. And I think as mums, there's this thing isn't in there anything that you do for yourself. It's at the expense of doing it for your children. And I feel like now my attitude towards it has developed after like being on my third child, because I know, when I just had Ruby, you know, kind of anything feel really, really bad. And I wouldn't, I'd be like, Oh, no, I can't do anything for myself. I can't go for a run because the house is a mess. And I've got to do this. I've got to do the washing and everything before I do this little thing myself. And now, I'm a bit like, well, if I want to play my bass clarinet for 10 minutes, the house isn't there, then I'm just going to do it because I only have one life and it's not fair on everyone else that I'm resentful because I don't get to do it. Then Lin, Australian pianist and influencer in China Social Media what they tried to say that woman needs to wake up. So I guess it's a bit late, but at least they asked me to have this slogan. Woman You have to wake up. You're not just a mom. You're also different. So I guess the Australia this is so natural, like, I saw my friend like yesterday, they get butts today they already you know, grabbing the baby just at the workplace. Yeah. And you cannot do that you turn up people just like what are you crazy and that's why I love Australia because I just feel like I can race and I can do whatever I want. So I know I was born in China, but there are things I don't like. And what I'm doing now is I don't judge about the things I don't like I just support the things I like and let more people know about it. And I wanted to let people know about it no matter how many children I have, I'm still a woman get and masa kindler, Hungarian born flautist, composer, and pianist people around me, reduce me from this to this biological being, you are now a mother, you have to do this, this and this and this, and you should not do more. And we don't want more from you. This is now what you have to do. This is your responsibility now, to be your biological being. Not a person, not a woman, and not an artist. And in the first few months, I felt it. I was on the road with with my baby in the pram and you know, that people seeing in you just the mother, you will not recognize. Like, like a woman. This is this is a mother with a small child. And that was Kelly knives, Australian professional stylist. And I just thought, you know what, I just I need something I need something to take my mind off of just motherhood to make me feel like me and I, I genuinely think you know, it was the best thing I ever did in everyone's different some people are like, Yep, I need to get back to work for the same reason other people are like, No, I need to just give motherhood, my all and that's my focus. And I don't think there's a right or a wrong, I think it's about what what you feel is best for you and what you think is best for your family and your mental health. And I know I said that to my daughter quite a few times. And like, you know, it's not just about the baby, it's about me too. And sometimes when I've said that I almost felt a bit selfish because I felt like oh, you know, like, I should be giving motherhood, my absolute everything. Alex McLaughlin, Canadian acrylic and watercolor artist. So is that where the watercolor started to come in a bit. Like you're just sort of testing out what else you can do. And that does have a lot to do with just like incorporating my practice into my life and trying to be more efficient. Because I've never really been able to involve my kids in the studio too much. I have two really active boys. I tried I really did try to to just be casual about it and set them up and then but yeah, my oldest was could not sit still he'd get into the the worst things, you know, like climbing the walls. So and I didn't want to say no, I didn't want to say no all the time. Right. So we kind of avoided being in the studio too much. earlier on. Now I am learning with a prefer rose Dela Cruz, New Zealand photographer. It was important for me to have a project for myself. That is outside the routine of taking care of baby taking care of everything, you know, running the household. Yeah, you know, something that was for myself a break because then once I once I had that, it was kind of like I was able to I don't know be more relaxed. Yeah, when I take care of her and she could feel that. Dr. Erica ball, US classical music composer, violinist pianist and educator. I've been to concerts by myself and people who knew me and they would you know make remarks like oh, you're missing bedtime. I'm so glad you came to the concert. Like I'm so sorry. I'd missed bedtime and I love missing bedtime. It is my least favorite part of day. Hi, I'm so glad to be here. My husband is perfectly capable of putting our children to bed. Yeah, he does it most states even if I'm home. Isn't that it's Interesting have the judgment people just assume that it's like, that's what you should be doing your mom, that's what you should be doing. It's like, hello, they have two parents like, exactly. Ah, it really frustrates me and comments like that they just don't go very far to help Donna Stevenson, senior dancer with the Australian ballet. And also that first appointment, I think, you know, I had all these questions about the babies and you know, this feeding this and, you know, sleeping in their tummies, all this stuff, you had this list of things like all every new man does. And she's like, I don't want to talk about babies. It was so amazing. So experience is I want to talk in my mind anxious me, I just wish we could get to the things I want to talk about. So long getting to know both of us. myself lucky, our stories, how we got to this point, and you know, obviously with the traveling and the quarantine and all of the know driving on the highway and all of this and Jessica and and she's like, you know, it's a pyramid structure. And she said, everyone thinks that the parents are, you know, come last. And they're at the bottom, but it's actually the other way around. If you're at the top and it filters down, if you guys aren't okay, no one's okay. And then when it came to me, if you're not okay, no one else is okay. And that's not a burden to you. That's just where we need to put you in this picture. Because you're going to be putting yourself down here and everyone else comes first. And that the baby's needs come first. And as someone who does like perfection in that way, whenever they'd cry, I'd feel like a failure. When I couldn't settle them, I'd feel like a failure. And like lots of mums do because that's your feedback. And you equate that to how well you're doing at being a mum. And when you've got two of them at once doing that. Or when you've just got one settled and the other you think your status quo is constantly being disrupted, so therefore, you must be doing a terrible job. And someone else wouldn't be doing this better than you. Heather McClelland, UK based singer, songwriter, musician, composer, and music educator, I'm very much someone that like feels I'm very much someone that likes to be doing stuff, you know, I've got this quite a lot of pressure of like, oh, I need to be, you know, I like to achieve things I like to do. So it's like, we're quite driven. And then like, always, like, oh, I should be trying to do this and do that. And I want to like this. And I want to, you know, there's always a sort of drive. And I think with, when you have a child, it's been quite good for me to learn to like, just be in the moment as well jamming and not feel guilty that like, I haven't been creative, like on that day is like, oh, yeah, you can get some foam out and play on the tray or whatever, you know, it's like, you're just like, in the moment doing stuff with him and kind of discovering things of having like, these days, so yeah, you know, and he's gonna go to school in September. So it's gonna be like, this whole new chapter of like, getting sort of, you know, different time back and stuff. Chapter. Yeah, it's exciting to look forward to that too. Because yeah, definitely. Yeah. Five days, five days. Louise Agnew, Australian photographer. A lot of people believe and I added to that, once you're a mother, then you're complete. So there's this idea, this idea that becoming a mother will solve everything. But then once you become a mother, you don't feel like you're doing that job well enough all of the time. So therefore, you're not complete. And you have to keep this cycle of Yeah, that was just a thought that popped in. Ideal that you're working towards this thing, and that's when you reach the top, but it just keeps getting higher and higher. That point. The goalposts keep shifting, I thought it was Anjali Gan, Tasha mula, Karen Mila, and Camilla flurry representing mother Wilde, a global collective of women who believe deeply in helping mothers to Mother themselves. I really fucking love myself. And I also really care about my well being. And feeling guilty does not serve my well being, and it does not improve me as a human in any way. Guilt is for when you're doing something wrong, something bad, something malicious. So when a mom feels guilty about going out for a date night, instead of being with her kid, you're trying to tell me that her pleasure and her well being isn't a value. Or when a mom is with her kids and she's not working. She should feel bad about that. No. How does that help her in any way? I can try my best to be as healthy as I can and curate a beautiful childhood for my children. But at the end of the day, you can experience it in their own way. And that's not mine to choose, right. But the one thing that I can control is I'm not going to give them a mom, who is resentful, who is depleted, and who, you know, is, is, yeah, just just unfulfilled and unsatisfied in her own pursuit, and life, that part I can do. And my hope is from there, those are kind of some keys and some tools for them to do that in their own way in life. We wanted to make sure that we had like the big dreams, you know, like the maybe the once in a lifetime dreams, but we also wanted to have the dreams like just being able to have a bath by yourself without being interrupted. So I think it's just the act of dreaming versus what the dream is. And, you know, we kind of say that as well, like, whether you go off and do it or you know, like, it's not the point, it's just reminding yourself that you know, to dream. And then, you know, it was at a time when I was like, I had a four year old and a two year old and I was about to go on to one of many things that the spiritual curious seeker was looking for. And it was just like, Oh, these voices, and it was just like one man along the way, who was like, Oh, where are your kids? And who's looking after them? And it's like, why are you leaving them? And I remember like, oh, my gosh, he's right, why am I doing this. And then it was like, wait a minute, I have given so much already, through the pregnancies through the daily mundane things that I can ask for little bit of time away, and I didn't need the permission of my husband, they were thumbs up, didn't need the permission of my parents, they didn't know where I was going. And, and it was just culture at large that I just had to get away. LED Australian music publicist, if you're trying to do something, and it's not working, it's not getting to you to where you want to go. Be creative and think up a solution. Think of a different doorway. For me, you know, I could have sat here 2020 When I was like, Well, you know, being a mum is not enough for me, I want more. I've got to just wallow in self pity and feel bad for myself. And I'm the victim. You know, at the end of the day, I I've kind of rose above those thoughts and went well, Can I switch? Course you can pocket. I've got a certain amount of assertiveness within myself, I have the self belief. I feel empowered. Fuck it, I'm going to make it happen. And I'm going to keep building on my empire of creative projects. And I'm not gonna stop Catherine Colette, Australian author and podcaster I think Mum, guilt is hard to escape, on some level. What has made a massive difference for me and I would say it's probably in other writers lives as well is publication. So pre, it's like that gives something a legitimacy and a validation that all of those years where, you know, you might get an article here or a short story here and all that sort of stuff, is the real turning point in terms of perception, because I think there is a relationship and, like a real life relationship between perception and and that that kind of valuing of what you're spending your time doing. There's also an element that is in your head as well. Danny van Australian hosts presenter and Master Chef staff, like I remember dropping off Harlow to daycare when I was doing that job I was talking about earlier going and chopping veggies and making these organic meals for people. I felt so bad about doing that. Like, I light up when I got there. You know, I felt good. I was able to just go into a job that I didn't really have to think about too much. And it made me feel good. But God I felt bad about just dropping off at daycare and picking her up. Light really light. And I feel like Yeah, it's like do we carry this guilt? Like why do we carry this guilt? I don't know if fathers are carrying as much guilt. I don't know. I don't know. I don't like Yeah, it's hard. But I feel like I do I have less guilt now. I would say so I think I've, I've think I've tried to accept that, you know, things are as they are. I'm still my own person. My kids are their person. We're all just trying to do our best. But yeah, there's still guilt around. SHAN Rong Janessa Jovic tore us violinist and music educator. Also I won't let my identity that's part of me. I don't want that to go. I want my children look at me in the future, when they answer understand. I'm in their eyes, I'm not only their mom, I want them to see that. During the hardest time, I never give up what I love. Because playing a violin teaching is what I love. And making music, be able to play with people is what I love. And I want my children to see that even through the hardest time, I have to make choice to give my life my time and attention to them. But I never give up what I love. And I always come back to it. Andrea Reyes, Australian mixed media visual artist and creativity coach. Well, here I go, like I'm into the next stage of my, my life and like I'm becoming a mother. And this is who I'm going to be now. Like you kind of all for me, it was a very confusing period where I just didn't know what I was doing or who I was, I felt like, kind of, yeah, I was out of control life was happening to me not like I wasn't in control of it kind of so now I've realized that actually, you can do whatever you want. You have full control of everything and Ms. Coleman, Australian indie musician, I think I would love to live in a world where the term mum guilt is just not a thing. And if we're gonna have anything, it's parent guilt. And I don't even think parent guilt should be a thing, but at least that crosses genders and roles, you know, like, why, for instance, because I'm a woman should I feel really bad about, you know, the dishes piling up and you know, an unhealthy dinner. If, like, you know, a male parent really doesn't. Now I'm not saying they don't. And I'm not saying it's that simple. But yeah, like, what is it about? Like, why have we been conditioned to kind of carry that burden or that? Yeah, so yeah, if we, if we have to feel guilty, can we all please feel guilty TKF. Just on the women, John Cook Father's Day episode, US conductor and educator, but the generation of our parents. They had to give up stuff. I'm sure that you know, like, my mother never went out on our own. And my father, who was in the restaurant business was out every night. And come home till two three in the morning. So I wish they almost did some stuff for them. You know? Yeah. And that certainly is not you know, your parents or my parents reality they had to give up things that they might may have wanted to do. But I feel bad for that. You know that that was the case then. But it's not now. Mercedes roaches us claim maker and Potter. As a woman, it's a strange thing like the post feminist woman like we're no, we're, we're still expected to be these amazing moms. Keep a good house not look like a big mess. Right and like, show up for everybody all the time. And I think it does create a huge amount of guilt. We're like, we are never enough. There are never enough hours in the day for us to do all of the things for all the people and then I think the more than anything, we don't like there's no value on recharging for ourselves, right? Like it's almost like a like this weird luxury like, Oh, you're gonna go have quiet time for yourself for an hour and that's a priority for your life. What about your dishes, you know, and it doesn't create this like, very uncomfortable level of guilt. And it's like, Well, why don't you ask my husband about the dishes because he's a partnership. It doesn't matter how much we do. It is never ever enough. Shweta based Indian born photographer based in the United States, even now like every day that passes I, I see it better. I I see I see myself better now than I did then. And I was lost and I was very unhappy. And only I knew that. And I was I felt guilty that I had everything that I needed. I had a I had healthy children, you know how it is like you have a you have a happy family in a sense and And saying why do I still feel so empty? And and you know, I said, I'm a thinker. So what do I like what's going on? My children are flourishing and I was diminishing. There was something wrong there. And I think I had to acknowledge that Danny Oh, covenants Netherlands born author based in the US, technically I did, it looked like that on the outside, I had exactly a good list, a great husband, Healthy Kids, great neighborhood, beautiful home, good schools. And something was still missing. And I wasn't happy. And I, for the longest time, I would beat myself up. Stop being so ungrateful. Be grateful for all the gifts in your life. You should be happy, you should be happy, you should be happy, why you're not happy. But at some point, when my youngest was in preschool, I realized, stop, you got to start listening to yourself. Because if you don't make a change, now, you're going to end up being bitter and unhappy and resentful, and you do not want to go. You don't want to be that person. Emily Johnson, US author. It's hard. I mean, that's the you know, people think physically being a mother is hard. But there is a lot of emotional second gasoline. And you know, and I'm doing this correctly, what you know, am I a terrible mother? Am I a good mother? Am I you know, am I completely screwing my kit up for the future? And unfortunately, a lot of people don't talk about that unless their moms themselves. Fiona Valentine, Melbourne artist, and artists business coach, I think we're experts at coming up with guilt, over all sorts of things, and mothering right? Am I living, right? Have I done enough? Am I enough, and just recognizing that part of the journey, particularly when you pick up creativity, for some reason, creativity is just opposed. People have written books about it, it's not even just internal. It's, it's something outside of ourselves, and recognizing that gives you a bit of something in your backbone that says, this does matter. This is good for my kids, when I'm being a whole person when I'm being creative when I'm modeling joy for them. Simone wise, South Australian visual artist, I'm encouraged by there are a lot of artists, female artists who are going strong into their older years, or even like, fully come into themselves as artists later on. So while I do get frustrated that I don't have the time to dedicate that I would like I still feel like I've got the foundations of skills in who knows what will happen in the future, I might have more time to push things further. Amy Siegfried, US podcaster and entrepreneur, my mom and I talk a lot about how being a mom has shifted so much since she was since I was little till now, because a lot of the, you know, in her from her perspective, a lot of these women's movement movements have really taught us to take care of each other, versus fight each other when it really comes down to it. And so, I do think the mom guilt looks a little different. You know, I joke that, you know, we we, the cookies come out of the little package that you buy from the store, and you put them on the pan and my mother takes my son and makes them with a mixer and the whole nine yards. This is how mom does them. This is how Grammy doesn't and they're both okay. And that's okay. And we go do this where you guys don't do that. It's it's truly one of those things. And I think the challenge is probably getting out of our own heads. So much us feeling like we need to put ourselves in this box and her whatever that might be or, you know, we see people on Instagram who you know, cut their children's sandwiches into fun shapes and sizes every day. And then they also take the zoo, but somehow they work full time. And then they go and you're like how how do you possibly make dinner and go to the zoo and go to work from nine to five and then cut their sandwiches to look like the Taj Mahal? Like I don't understand how this works. So yeah, I think it's just it's setting our own perspectives of what we're able to do and what we just have to let go. Lisa Sugarman us writer, more and more people are starting to show their real selves on social media, which I love. And saying, I'm actually not okay. I'm actually a disaster. And I'm this and I'm bad and that's owning it and being honest. In the same way. I think moms are starting to recognize that this whole guilt thing is complete bullshit that they shouldn't buy into you because it's just going to chip away at your soul and your confidence and your self esteem. Because if you don't, and this goes back to perfection if you don't, if you don't do everything the way you think you're supposed to do it, now you're riddled with guilt. And now you're in capacity. So it doesn't know what, yeah. Bianca, Mara, US photographer and podcaster. The other night, my two little boys are in the tub together the most adorable thing you've ever seen. I just wanted to go on the bed and be scroll on my phone. I just wasn't I, how many times are they going to be in the battle, it's like, you go into the role of like, I know, I know, A, B, C, D E, I know why I should be there. But I'm not right now being present for me and to my needs, is to go lay down on the bed and not handcuff myself to this moment to like, keep my energy where I want it to be to feel like I can actually appreciate them when I'm in that space that I want. And I think about when I first drove the coast to California, for the first time ever, I've never been to the West Coast. I drove from LA to San Francisco. At first I was like, Hi. I was not literally but like, I just felt like I was like, Oh, I never seen such beauty in my life. I was like vibrating. By halfway up. I was like, literally nauseous and I don't think it was carsick. I was like, I can't it's too much. Like I feel like I need to, and I close my eyes. I was like, I can't see anymore. I can't I can't take it anymore. Like, I'm you know, and that's kind of what I feel like about, about guilt and about. It's this, it's the knowing, it's that wise, like I get it. I know all of the reasons why I this is amazing, but I'm just not, I'm not there. And I think the more that you can feel confident about choosing yourself in those moments, makes you even more richly there for the times where you choose that moment, you know, that is brilliantly put, honestly. Dr. Sophie Brock, Australian motherhood studies sociologist, what I really hope to try and do in my work and for us to do as a culture is to break open this dichotomy of, you're either a mother and you love your children, and you have this connected relationship and you've lost yourself, or you need to actually break away and step away from the mother. In order to be the self there's these two polar opposites set up and it's like actually know that there's a third way here, there's a way for us to flexibly move between our roles and to integrate our sense of self without mothering. And how much of a gift that is for our children. Right that we we don't need to break away pieces of, of who we are, and have our own authenticity in order to somehow hold up a mirage of them of who we are like that doesn't actually serve them. Kate King, US counselor and art therapist, I've always felt like the, like our babies, teach us the lessons that we would not learn from anyone else, we would not let anyone else get close enough and honest and vulnerable enough as we let our children get to us. And so some of our biggest issues will never come up for healing. If our kids don't reflect them back to us, you know, and control is a really big one for a lot of moms. And it's really healing to be able to finally sort of unpack it and work through the layers. Scott Maxwell Father's Day episode, Australian musician and educator. I know through experience that, you know, kids love kids like to sing, but sometimes they may annoy their parents. And it might be just natural for the parents to tell them, hey, you know, you sound like a dying dog or something like that, you know, and the kid might sound like a dying dog too. But that can really pay detrimental to that the psyche of that. So, a lot of the times, you know, I like to tell parents that if your kids if your kid is learning music, and it sounds horrible, then that's probably good because they're actually probably trying something that they've never done before. Some of my best singers and their parents will say that they make really silly noises a lot and that's that's experimentation of, of the voice or whatever. It is part of what my studio is still, I'm still experimenting. You know? I'm 50 years old and I can't stop Since I was 11 years old, Steve Davis Father's Day episode, marketing consultant, comedian, educator, and podcaster. Alexandra was born, Nadia was taken to a room to sort of recover. And I was taken back into the room and there was AJ, in a little caught. And I was quietly getting my laptop out to do work. And just as it was about to open, I was struck by fear that the first thing AJ would hear was the Microsoft music when the computer opened, and I slammed the lid, I couldn't let that be the case. And so I reached into my bag and brought out the complete works of William Shakespeare as you do, as you do, and I went over by her, and I read a sonnet to her. So that that was the first thing they actually heard. And then I opened up and I played Alexandra leaving, which is the Leonard Cohen song that she's named after. Fleur Harris, an Australian illustrator and designer, I realized that taking taking time for myself is important. And, you know, a couple of times, I've said to my husband, you know what, I'm gonna go and get a hotel room in the city. And I'm gonna go out for dinner by myself, and I'll be home tomorrow. Look, I've only done it a couple of times. But it's been at those points where I've thought, oh, my gosh, I am. I'm really maxed out here, like, stress wise. As or, you know. And I've gone and done that. And I've thought I haven't felt guilty about actually need is for the sake of, you know, my sanity and, and also, I'll come back, you know, better. And I almost feel like not doing those sorts of things is actually would actually be remiss of me in being a good member of my family. And a good mom. Janelle Thomas, Dubai based singer and songwriter. So then with Hendrix, I actually was back on stage six days after he was born. Oh, we had a gig that were waiting for us. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll be there next Monday. Yeah, I'm coming. That is incredible. That is amazing. How did you do it? Like physically, like we did? You must have like, a good birth and everything like good after? Or was it like really? I did. Like, I really, you know, I had great pregnancies. And the actual deliveries were a little bit tough. At times, I have babies who really enjoyed their accommodation. So they kind of had to be like, convinced to join us on Friday, you know, but then once they were out, they were perfectly healthy. I was healthy. I was moving around, you know. That being said, like I had, I had said, I'm gonna be back on stage. Everybody was going, Are you sure I was like, that is the wrong thing to say to me. I've said I'm sure you know, I'm just going to do this. Obviously, the week between birth and actually having to leave newborn baby for, you know, the six, seven hours that is required when you're when you're doing again, even if it's in town. That week was just so stressful. All I could think was I just need to pump enough. I need to be ready. I mean, one of the things that made it easier is we've had the same nanny since Theo was born. So at least she was really ready for that, you know, feels perfectly comfortable with her. So there wasn't any of that kind of stress of who's going to mind the baby like I had someone I trusted implicitly, but still. Yeah. And then on the day of just, I was getting ready for work, and I didn't have a single pair of shoes that fit because my feet are so swollen. And I thought and you know, and it's a jazz gig in a nice restaurant, and I thought I'm gonna have to go there in like, trainers that aren't even done up because I literally can like I was totally miss piggy. You know, I was just I couldn't even put my feet in anything and so I found this like, ghastly pair of slip ons that were really stretchy. And all I could think is please everybody look at my huge massive cleavage. Don't Don't look down at my terrible footwear. Just keep it all up here and then the top half. I'll be fine. Yeah, but, but I got there. And I really, we you know, we played three sets and I really spent the first two sets thinking that I was gonna take Like I was on stage thinking, this was not a great idea, I maybe shouldn't have done this. And I'd had an episiotomy. So I was still healing from stitches, so I couldn't use it. Also, you know, sitting was actually really uncomfortable. So everyone was going to want to steal. I'm like, no, no, no steal, that's worse. So I've just kind of, you know, trying not to, like, cling on to the mic stand for the first few seconds. But, you know, Felix was great. And the staff were great. It was a place that we we love we play there a long time. And so everybody just welcomed us back with open arms are so happy to see us, you know, even six months since we'd been there, because of COVID. And the audience was amazing. Like the audience were so ready for live entertainment to after COVID. So actually, the third set, good. The third set was better, and it was kind of, okay, well, this is the power of music that, but oh, yeah, I was in like the fall on adult diaper for that show. Now, when I look at it, I'm like, that was kind of a terrible idea. You know, and I can't believe that all of you guys, let me do you know, and my husband is just like, oh, yeah, like, I'm absolutely not going to tell you that you're crazy person. You know, you were doing it. So you did it. Suzanne Kohlberg Australian writer, and coach, my mum never had friends. She never had hobbies. I don't want to say she was just a mom. That sounds horrible. I remember looking at her. And I was thinking, I don't want to become a mom, like, honestly, your wife kind of ends, you don't have anything. And it was interesting. I met my husband, when I was 18. When we got married when I was like 22. And we were never sure on the kids thing. I could be really honest. Like, I love my kids and everything. But we weren't sure. And then we decided we wait till I was 28. And then we would decide. So we had, you know, by the time I was 2810 years together. And then we were like, Okay, we have kids got pregnant the first month, I had a very lucky journey in that respect. But it was kind of like, I remember when we got the positive pregnancy test, he was over the moon. And I was just sitting there kind of like, whoa, because I didn't think I do is like this is what we wanted. And I was like, yes, but like there was a little bit of mourning there. And then I was like, I don't have to be the mum that my mom was Judy Richards, Australian mixed media artist. When when you're a mum of three young children, there's plenty it isn't out there. That you stress yourself out, because your house doesn't move a certain way. Don't worry about it. Don't let the things of other people's things get to you. I don't judge people by their homes. If I want to be friends with someone, and things get on top of them. My CDs now and visit them for them don't make people because that what happens is then you stop wanting people to come to your house. Because you put yourself in a box and you go, Oh, if that's what people think I don't want them to come and visit you. I'm not good enough to have people into my mind. Yeah, that's right. And it's not this not a nice feeling to have. Leah Franklin, Australian plant based chef and entrepreneur member having a discussion on the humanities floor at Grant High School in year 10. And you know, you're all standing around on What's everyone doing, and you're picking your subjects and all that. And I didn't realize it was going to be such an embarrassing topic. But everyone was saying, oh, you know, what are you going to do and someone was going to be a teacher and someone was going to be a pharmacist and you did it at air and, and I set out and it came around to me and I said, I just want to be a mom. And like it was just this deathly quiet because even then, it was an unusual thing for someone in year 10 To say they wanted to just be a mum. And it was just, you know, air quotes again. Yeah, just be a man. And they said, oh, and I said yeah, I can like I just want to have the house with the fence in the whole thing. And it's it's truly all I saw for myself. Khalifa Holland, Australian entrepreneur and business owner. I've always loved working in what I do. But I made that I always knew my mom was very much there for us like even though we had coffee shops and that my mom was a sort of person. Get off the bus. We had a massive drive thru on a farm. Don't be riding with get inside and nominate harmala When somebody called me up before us, so I knew that if I was able to I wanted to have that fortune. Rachel Lawson waiver us photographer and artist educator. I thought when I didn't see people like me in TV, or movies or magazines or catalogs I didn't think that, that the problem was them and representation, I thought that the problem was me. And if I could just make myself thinner and different, then I deserved to be represented. And, like, That's bullshit. And so, now that I have like a little bit of a platform, a little bit of a way to make images, a little bit of wit, a way to share those, I'm like, and I had to start, it's one of the reasons I'm, like, pretty passionate about self portraiture, because I wanted people of different sizes, and abilities and bodies to hire me. And I felt like well, I have to start by showing mine. Like, I feel like it's one of those things that especially photographers, if you want to be telling people, like, I want you to feel comfortable in your body, you kind of have to like, walk the walk and prove it a little like they can see through your BS. And so if you haven't really done the work, to love and accept yourself, the best thing I can do is model that. And then when I show up, I kind of show up and I give people permission to be like, I get to do this to Jillian Lauren, us best selling author and journalist, I think it's important that your kids see that you're leading a meaningful and engaged life. You know, there's no such thing as just mom. You know, if you're meaningful and engaged, and your primary, you know, your primary activity is taking care of your children, you know, then I think that that would be wonderful and nurturing. And at the same time, that's not me, I was never going to give up my career. Sally refun, Australia's highest selling female author and illustrator. In the years where I did carry a lot more guilt than I allow myself to now, I used to worry a lot about working a lot, because I worked really, really, really hard. And so often I might be away on tour, or I might have to, after dinner, go back into the studio to work or, and would sometimes mean that I've missed some school things or, you know, and then I would feel bad about that. But I think all my working mothers can relate to that. But I guess what I hoped is that what I'm role modeling is that if they have a female partner in the future, there won't be an assumption that it just falls on one person to do the domestic labor or the childcare, that I can model what it's like to be an independent person in the world. I've always been financially independent, I've always, you know, worked really hard to forge a career for myself. And so even though I have sons, not daughters, I think it's as important to role model that for them, as it would be if I had daughters, Liz Morton, US event florist podcaster and entrepreneur, I've learned that my mom wasn't exactly a like well rounded eater, she ate a lot of spirits, a lot of the same things. So I'm finding like, as a mom, myself, that my kids eat everything that I eat. So if I'm showing them that I'm eating broccoli, and like home cooked meals, they're going to want to eat them too. So if I'm not giving them those options, they're not going to eat them. And they're not encouraged to because if I'm drinking soda, my daughter wants to drink soda. If I'm eating a nice polite with turkey bacon, she's gonna love to eat that too. So it's just a matter of introducing them to the right things and setting a good example. Katie Callahan, US singer, songwriter and artist, so I felt like a little bit of like a conflict, you know, in that, like, I'm gonna write about who I am and who I am includes being a woman and includes being a mother and includes like, acknowledging that I have those roles. And I'm not going to pretend like I don't because they're really important parts of my life. They dominate most of my time, you know? But those I feel like a lot of women have to pretend like it's not the case like when they're writing and, and like maybe that's a choice maybe maybe, you know, maybe you know, either other songwriters or like this is my way of reclaiming, you know, an individual identity is to write was to not write about them. Not like them. But because my, my, my, the way that I write and what I write about is so immediate, and often very responsive to where I am in my you know, environment and circumstance then they show up they keep showing up those girls and maybe not like overtly like this is the song about my daughter because only country singers can get away with that but uh, Elise Adlam, Australian philosopher and feminist women and mothers are really put in this catch 22 situation you can't win either way, right? If you stay home, you want to be a stay at home mom, no, you're not doing anything meaningful, you're not producing. And then you're in your, you know, even some people will say, Are your bad feminists, which is completely not true, because feminism should be about women choosing what they do with their lives, as long as they're not harming anyone else. And then on the other hand, you have, if you want to go back to work, you're abandoning your child, your, your role as a woman is to look after your child. So yeah, women really can't win in this bed, Steven, Australian singer and songwriter, everyone needs to be on the same team to make it work. So this year, for example, you know, we've had a baby at the beginning of the year, everyone has needed to be on board for for it to be successful, you know, so, and that's, you know, partner, System Manager, you know, all the people who are involved in the team, to be on board to make that work and to be happy to make that work. And for that to be successful. Alex cynic is an Australian designer and engineer. One of the reasons why we don't you know, know that much is because we don't invest in the research to learn that much. If we researched the lactating breast, like we researched other body functions, the same amount of money, we would know a lot more, there would be much more coherent programs. And, you know, part of this is, you know, we have no problem saying All women should breastfeed, and it's best for baby bla bla bla bla, but then, you know, where are the programs and funding to support having someone there in the hospital who's not run off her feet looking after all the other babies that just got born? Where's the funding to provide you homecare, like we do have these people who are super skilled and really good at what they do, but we don't have funding for them? Are these problems that can feasibly be solved? You know, in science? Are these like problems that can feasibly be solved with just a bit of cash? Yeah. And it's just you haven't chosen to prepare cash in that area? It's a little cynical, but I think it's true. genogram, US clinical social worker, and photographer. Yeah, yeah. So I was kind of, you know, like I said, I had taken a little bit of a break, when my kids were babies, I was kind of trying to juggle, you know, like life as a mom working in a very clinical, you know, very kind of demanding field at the time, I was in private practice work. And, you know, so it was just kind of me servicing these clients that had a lot of needs. And you know, it was a pretty high risk population, I've always worked, treating the field of eating disorders, and you can have a lot of medical complications and a lot of extra things, you kind of have to kind of keep tabs on from a medical perspective. And so I was juggling a lot at that time when my babies were small, and, you know, was just kind of increasingly able to work less and less because of difficulty with finding the right childcare. And, you know, my husband works in a job where he travels a bit and you know, commutes into the city, and sometimes it's gone long hours. And so, you know, it became obvious to me that, I just kind of felt ready to take a little break, I felt ready to kind of be home a little more and not try to do that juggle. So I was, you know, fortunate enough to be able to take a couple years, and step away from that work. And in that time, I was loving being a mom. But I think I kind of had a combination of, you know, just all of the emotions that gets stirred up when you're a mom, and you're raising kids and wanting to capture it and seeing how fast it goes. And then I think I just kind of started to get really curious about, you know, it's like that I think the expression is like the date, the years are short, but the days are long, and I had some like long days at home with two very active young boys. And I just kind of got curious about what I was interested in. That could be a part of that day that could also be kind of meaningful. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll be back on the sixth of January, with a new season of The Art of Being a mum

Dana Stephensen Senior Dancer with the Australian Ballet S2 Ep39 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Dana Stephensen, Senior Artist with the Australian Ballet Company and a mother of 3 children, including twin girls, At the age of three Dana began her dance training with Davidia Lind in jazz, tap, ballet and singing in her hometown of Brisbane. She later trained with Mary Heath and Sandra Ashley before studying with the Queensland Dance School of Excellence in 2001, obtaining her Royal Academy of Dance Solo Seal. Dana joined The Australian Ballet School in 2002. In her graduating year she was seconded to The Australian Ballet to perform in various seasons before joining the company full-time in 2005. She has since enjoyed international tours to Los Angeles, New York, UK, Auckland, Shanghai, Tokyo, and Paris. At the end of 2008, Dana was awarded the Khitercs Hirai Scholarship, which enabled her to gain invaluable experience training with numerous ballet companies in Europe. Dana was promoted to coryphée (a leading dancer in a corps) in 2010 and went on to win the Telstra Ballet Dancer Award later that year. She was promoted to soloist in 2014 and to senior artist in 2018. In 2020 Dana took what she thought was to be her final dance with the company, at that stage 11 weeks pregnant with her twin girls with fiancé Lachy Gillespie AKA the Purple Wiggle . Today Dana shares her story of her experience with post natal depression and anxiety, and how she used her ballet as therapy to aid in her recovery. I also indulge my own curiosity of the ballet world so we talk a lot about ballet! **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and anxiety** Read more about Dana and follow her on instagram Dana would love you to visit : www.cope.com.au www.panda.com.au www.gigetfoundation.org.au Upcoming Australian ballet Shows Read and listen to the part of Swan Lake I was trying to describe Read the Sydney Morning Herald article Read about Wayne McGregor and Dyad 1929 Podcast - instagram / website Music used in this episode is in the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright, and is taken from the ballets Swan Lake, Peter and the Wolf, The Nutcracker and Giselle. Photo by Jeff Busby of Dana performing in the ballet The Sleeping Beauty. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me. I'm thrilled to welcome to the podcast today. Danna Stevenson, Donna is a senior artist with the Australian ballet and a mother of three children including twin girls. At the age of three, Diana began her dance training with de Vidya land in jazz tap ballet and singing in her hometown of Brisbane. She later trained with Mary Heath and Sandra Ashley, before studying with the Queensland dance school of excellence in 2001, obtaining her Royal Academy of Dance solo seal, Donna joined the Australian ballet school in 2002. In her graduating year, she was seconded to the Australian ballet to perform in various seasons before joining the company full time in 2005. Since that time, she's enjoyed international tours to Los Angeles, New York, the UK, Auckland, Shanghai, Tokyo and Paris. At the end of 2008 Danna was awarded the catex HiRISE Scholarship, which enabled her to gain invaluable experience training with numerous ballet companies in Europe. Donna was promoted to Cara fee, a leading dancer in a core and went on to win the Telstra ballet dancer award later that year. She was promoted to soloist in 2014, and two senior artists in 2018. In 2020, Donna took what she thought was to be her final dance with the company at that stage 11 weeks pregnant with her twin girls with her fiance, Locky Gillespie, also known as the purple wiggle. Today Diana shares her story and her experience with postnatal depression and anxiety and how she used her ballet as therapy to aid in her recovery. I also indulge my own curiosity of the ballet world. So we talk a lot about ballet and music. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression and anxiety. The music used in this episode is in the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright, and is taken from the ballets of Swan Lake, Peter in the wolf, the Nutcracker. And Giselle, I hope you enjoy. Welcome, Donna, thank you so much. It's lovely to have you today. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to have a chat. Yeah, for sure. So you're a senior artist, you've obviously been dancing ballet for quite a while. Can you tell us how you first got started? I started dancing when I was three. So my earliest memories really are of me being a dancer, obviously a little bit different to what I am now. But I think it is quite interesting that that's kind of where memory kind of starts to form for children, here and there. And so my earliest memories are of dancing. So I actually started because my sister was dancing at the time. She's two years older than me. And she had started a general jazz class at the local dance school with some school friends. Because she was really shy, really, really shy like hiding behind mom shy. So it was a way of kind of getting her into something social and something to bring her out a bit. Yes, it was parent watching week that week, and I went with mum. And I was sitting at the back and I just started, I just stood up and started joining in the class. And then they were doing cartwheels. And I just was all a part of it, basically. And the teacher came over to mom and said, Oh, I think this little one probably wants to have a go, you know, come around to the little little East class and other day. And I think it just started like that. And then quite quickly, I started the Stanford team. I was there five days a week, and then six days like, by that before I started school, probably a bit more. It was like, more is more. I just danced all the time. I was at school or I dance that was that was how it was. Yeah, right. So it was literally your sister got you into it, which is really cool. My sister got me into singing, like formal singing, like because she joined. And I wanted to do it too. So that's a really cool, so it's your sister older. Now she's younger. And I think that's why I wanted to do it. Because it was like, well, she gets to draw, I should be doing it. Because yeah, I mean, I think it's a little bit ironic because my sister started doing a jazz class. And I started with that. And then I started taking ballet and tap, and then all the different, all the different things. And my sister stuck with that one jazz class a week until maybe she was 10. She would, she would get so worked up before it and we didn't know this until she was older that she would get so sick to her stomach about going to dancing because it was such a big deal for her to have people looking at her. And meanwhile, her little sister was just you know, couldn't get enough of it. Interestingly, Brie my sister Bree, she would have done so well in ballet. Yeah, I was very much metrical one. And then I found ballet to be my path a lot later. Whereas my sister, she would have actually loved ballet. And she says that now I wish I'd just done ballet, not jazz, because that's all out there. And yeah, a bit chunky. Whereas ballet, she's she actually would have loved the discipline. And the, you know, the teacher sets the exercise. And you do that, and it's a bit quieter? Not not so much like, like jazz hands in the spotlight kind of thing. Yeah. So then how did you get into the ballet side of things? Was it just something you were offered? And, and then you sort of just thought, I love this so much. I'm just gonna go with it. Yeah, it's quite interesting, because I think as a child, I am sure this is the case. For most children. I just love dancing. I didn't really, obviously there were the dance styles. But I didn't differentiate between what each one was, I just loved the whole thing. And then once I started doing istead, fits and being on stage and the lights and the feeling of that, and taking on a different character, it was all one in the same. Obviously, there's different elements to each sort of style, but I just loved all of it. So it wasn't until I was a teenager, and every time that musicals would come to Brisbane, I'm from Brisbane. So you know, once he went fame would calm or Chicago or whatever it was, we'd go and but also every time the Australian ballet would come, you know, on the Saturday matinee mum would take me to that. And that was a big event of the year too. So it all just kind of was coinciding, and I had no preference whatsoever, until as a teenager, you do start to need to take a bit more of a structured path if you are going to follow ballet, but my school at the time did video in Dance Center where I went when I was three, she she had never had a ballet dancer. So that needed more ballet training as a teenager because no one had kind of got that fire in their belly exams at the time. So I actually had to find some teachers externally to help me. And then I was an interstate associate with the Australian Ballet School, which is in Melbourne, which is the school that does feed into the Australian ballet company. And so that meant I could come down for a week, every year to do like a winter school. And when they came to Brisbane, we do a master class, but it was still just happening bubbling along. But then the audition came to do for the first level five year which is about 15. At the Australian Ballet School, the senior school is level six, seven and eight. That's like your finishing training. But they're just started a level five and that was half ballet half school. And so I auditioned for that and was very hopeful about getting in and I didn't get in. And I was really really disappointed. And I couldn't have said it at the time. But I think that was a really big catalyst in thinking I obviously really want to do this. It's not happening right now. And I, I think I really, I want that to be happening. So the next year, I went to a school in Brisbane called the Queensland at school of excellence, which was, again, half Valley High School, but a version of that in Brisbane, and auditioned again for the Australian ballet school the next year. Yep. And got in the next year, and then did my three years and then got into the company. Yeah, so yeah, that moment, it's like, the level of disappointment you felt made you sort of realize i, this is how much I want this. This is it's almost like, it's not great that you didn't get in, but it's almost like you needed that to confirm it for you to make you go right, I'm gonna go for this really, this is what I want to do. So I think so it was an probably a strong indication to that I needed to probably blinkers on a little bit. And just focus a bit more on that. Having said that, I was I loved my high school, and I loved my school friends. And I, I think that's something you know, I've always had, I have always kind of needed to have a balanced sort of life. I was never like a Betty bonehead. And I'm still not. But at the same time, I think I needed to probably think, Okay, well, if this is what you want to do, there's a few steps that need to be taken. And so I took those steps and worked really hard and I was very lucky to get in that next time. So then what what sort of direction did you Korea take from then after that, getting in there. So they strain bicycles, three years and then. So your final year, you start to do a lot more performing. And very fortunately, at the time, the company who's in the same building, so it's really special at the school, because you can't just walk down the corridor, and like, put your little face at the windows, and you see the company dancing and rehearsing and all your idols and like it's, you know, coming from Brisbane, and coming down into this world. It was so scary, overwhelming, amazing, exciting, just all of those things. And then to, to think and dream about getting to the other end of the corridor and getting into those company rooms one day. But yeah, at the time, when I was in my last year at the school, that company had, we're doing lots of different seasons, but there was quite a few injuries. So they needed some extra dancers. And at that time, they often seconded dancers from the school to go join that company. So they had a couple of us learn a particular ballet symphony and see, and then the next night I was on, basically, Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was like a baptism of fire. But at the same time, I feel like looking back at that age, you're so ready. And that's what you're training for. And obviously, that's an amazing opportunity. And then that opportunity turned into a longer opportunity. I danced with the company for almost all their seasons that year. And so I was very lucky to have the, the staff and obviously the artistic director at the time, David McAllister, he could see me across a whole year almost, as opposed to going in one day for an audition somewhere, they have no idea who you are, where you've come from any story. And you have to somehow impress someone in in a glimpse or in a half an hour class, then, you know, to this day, I still find that hard when people come into cars valets, I'm like, I don't even know what you want to see like, and that's fine. By this point. You're just like, I need this is what I've got. And if you like it, great. And if you don't, all right, then that's kind of the nature of the industry. There's still something that I I find quite challenging. But like I said, at that at that time of, you know, trying to get my first job, I was very fortunate to have a long audition process. And not for a second though, did I think I would get a job the following year, but then at the end of the year, when they gave contracts out, they gave two female contracts and two male contracts and I was one of the females. That was lucky enough Did you get a job with the company then? Yeah, right. So then that meant you're part of that, that room that you've been sort of peeking in and looking out for those years, that would have been incredible. It really is. It's, you know, there's so much looking up to in ballet, you know, you watch videos in such a different world now, with the internet and YouTube, but back in the day, you'd have back in the day. But so, but no, I would watch the same videos at the Australian ballet company every Saturday over and over, and over, and I knew everything they did inside out. And then he walked down once a move to Melbourne. And then he walked down the corridor and that person, right there real quick. So, yeah, it's, I think it's a really lovely thing. And there's substitution traditions in ballet that really need to move forwards. But there's certain traditions that are really lovely, like when you're doing the company, and there's a lot of respect, obviously, for the principles. And if they don't have a passport, and you're absolutely a first year, you do not take a spot at the bar. And some of those things seem a bit archaic. But I also think in our, our industry and our career, those people have worked to where they've got to, and they who we look to and the epitome of that. And I actually loved that. Yeah, it's like that level of respect that you can show someone's in that, like, we were talking before about being called a ballerina. That's a title that you've earned. And, you know, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's, I guess all dancers feel differently about that. And that's a personal preference. But I don't feel that comfortable when people refer to me as a ballerina, because I'm not that, in my mind. I'm, for many reasons, I'm not that I'm a bit left field as a ballerina, but also, they're the people I look up to. They're the people who have earned that title as ballerinas of the company. And I've done a lot of amazing work, and I'm so proud of where I'm at, and the rain. COVID chi is something beyond my wildest dreams. But yeah, I even in like, you know, the smallest context when you know, even like, when a little girl calls me a ballerina like, Oh, I'm not quite I'm sorry. No, okay. Yeah, in my by myself, like, oh, that's, that's, that's those people. That's not me. Yeah, yeah, I can I just say that. It's, yeah, I think, like you said, there's probably a lot of things that can change. But I think there's nothing wrong with respecting people like you, like you the story that you've just outlined the amount of work that's gone in, you know, and there's people you know, that's what they do, they dedicate their entire life to their art. So I think there's, you know, there's a time and space for like, you know, some tradition, respect Yeah. Just while we're talking about that, I'll just mention quickly, my I went to school with two girls who went on to become dancers, dances with different ballets. I'm not sure if you know, Rachel Walsh, or if you've heard of Rachel, she was happy to fall. Yeah, we went through school together, up to I think she left you 10 might have been a last year in that Gambia. And then she went off to do her thing, which she's done, amazingly. And we've been chatting a bit. So we're organizing that she'll come on the show in the future, which is really cool. And another girl called, she's Lisa Robinson, and she went to Canada, I think, to do her dance, he or she ended up in Canada. She's there now. But it was just amazing that at that time, when you're when you're teenagers, you have no idea what these girls are doing what they're going through, you just go Oh, yeah, they're dead. They're dancing, you know, but they're, like you've described your whole world you switched on, that's your focus. And everything involved in that too. Like your, your way you eat, I suppose and the way you look after your body and the exercises you do and the training that you do. And here we are just you know, teenagers worrying about, you know, what the boys are up to or you know, it's just all different, different world. Like that's it. That's a really interesting point because I I think ballet dancers have to make certain decisions much earlier. You know, it would it's, it's comparable with elite athletes, but they have to make quite adult is an adult grown up decisions about what they'd like to do how they'd like to achieve it. But at quite a young age, I moved to Melbourne, I was 16. But I know there's other kids, I'd say, Yeah, you know, at 1415. And they might be in the boarding house or, you know, different, different home setups. And I can't comment on anyone else's experience, obviously. But you look back and you think, oh, that's, that's actually a massive deal. But at the time, and this is, this is the sort of people we are, who are who are drawn to what, to who are drawn to doing what this what we do, you have to be so driven, and dedicated, and focused, single minded focus and determined, resilient, they're all the skills that you're building up in your teenage years, which is not often I'd say, traditionally, the years you're building up those things. Oh, and, you know, staying open to things and so you, you did, probably there's a sense of isolation in that. I mean, I had great school friends around me who they were just like Danna does ballet. And that's really great. I know, other people have had different experiences by being so different. Obviously, a lot of men in the company, I've had lots of bullying experiences, I got a little bit about how small I was, and how, how focused I was, I guess, but I had really good people around me and I have a really amazing family who's not involved in ballet at all, really grounded. And it was all a bit of a new experience for me. And I felt a bit protected in that honestly. But yeah, it is it is. It feels like you're a bit ahead in many ways, at that age, because you have to be, but that's what prepares you for the career you're about to have. And to be able to handle the pressure that you have to at really quite a young age. Would you say, Don't put words in your mouth, but I've never been in the ballet world. Is it? Like I don't want to say cutthroat but is it a hugely intense? Like you talked about the having to audition? Like is there so much pressure to keep yourself at a certain level or and you're competing with other people all the time? Or if I got that really not on the mark? No, you're pretty spot on. What's probably a bit less expected is that it's it's a lot more nuanced than that in terms of it is cutthroat and it's competitive. And in a company, and I've been in a company for 18 years now, which I can't believe I still feel like I'm 16 It's a bit like that, I feel like you just keep you a little bit young somehow, in some way. But anyway, I do. It's a really interesting competitiveness. Because essentially, you're vying for the same roles all the time. And you're Korea is in is ideally solely in your hands and your work and the effort you're putting in and energy and your commitment, and your training, your resilience and your reliability. There's so many skills that are in your control. But there's also a really big one, which is someone else's opinion, and that at the end of the day, sometimes trumps everything. And I think a good thing to remember with that, though, is that across your career, you will be on both sides of that, you'll be on the side where someone comes in and just thinks you're the bee's knees. And they'll then there's the times that you're on the other side of that, which is someone who's not interested in you at all. And so everyone has their moments either side. And you know, you might have a couple of bad years where you feel like nothing's going your way. And trying to stay motivated in that time and internally driven and internally motivated, is very challenging. And I think that again, we move into this career quite young, I was performing at 17 with the National Ballet Company, which you know, there were younger people than that even so, especially young, but at that age, you're dealing with quite a lot of pressure and competitiveness. And you know, I've got children and you know, what would you want to tell your children You're perfect as you are, you know, just go out there and do a good job. Just work hard, and that's the most important thing. How do you tell someone or they just don't want Like, how you look? Yeah, like, that's just always, you know, obviously, in ballet, there's, you know, a lot of scope to talk about body types and body aesthetics. And the Australian ballet is really healthy in terms of that. There's, we all look really different. There's lots of different heights, and different body styles and different ways of moving, which ultimately, is the most important thing. But there is a lot of versatility in our company now. But sometimes it really is, they don't like how you look, or how you can't, which is the way you personally express yourself. So it's pretty heart wrenching sometimes because they're like how someone else does it more. And some, sometimes just thinking about almost as clearly as as brutal as it is, is the best way. Like, that's how they're doing it. I'm doing this over here. And as you get older, and more experienced, and I think weed life experience, obviously kind of boosting you. On all sides, you realize that this is all you have is what you are and what you bring. And if it's not your turn right now, it might be your turn next month. Yeah, I'm, that is such a incredible way of looking at things like that. It's so pragmatic. It's just an I personally, it took me a long time to get to that point with music, because it's, it's the same thing people like what you're doing or you don't, and it's you, you're putting yourself out there. And I got to a point. Like I used to do a Stanford to for singing. And one year I just thought, why am I doing this, I'm letting one person's opinion, decide how I feel about myself. And I just thought, I'm not doing this anymore. I don't, I don't want to feel like this. And I just stopped doing it. And then I can sort of like put myself up for different awards or put things online. And I feel like, if it's not my turn, it's someone else's turn. And that's they need that right now in their life. And it's become a really great way of me being able to just go, Oh, that's good, that's nice and not be worried about stuff anymore. Which took a long time, like, I'm nearly 44. So it's like, it's a thing that you have to go through, I think because no one can sit you down and say, right, this is how you should feel about failure. I think it's something you have to sort of work through yourself. But I love that I really love that the way I've described that. I think experience, you need experience on both sides of that coin. And you know, another thing in the company, you join the company, and we all have, we all have a certain level of talent that makes us ballet dancers. And then beyond that we all have our unique talents. And some of us, I'm a really good jumper, for example, because of how I'm built and I'm really athletic. But my whole life my whole career, I've wished I've looked like the other girls who are so beautiful and so elegant. And just total ballerinas and I have lots of energy, and it serves me really well sometimes. And other times I hold over a lot. I've just come to embrace and everyone's like Dan is on the floor again. Because I've gone through obviously different phases with what I've felt like on my own failures or weaknesses. Yeah. And of course, as a younger dancer, there is something so much about your work ethic. If I just work hard enough, I can change that. And there is merit to that, about working on our weaknesses, but ultimately, focusing on our strengths and amplifying them actually, is so much more. I don't know, it's you're so much more yourself, if that's what you're focusing on what you're putting your attention to. I spent, you know, my early years in the company were quite tricky. And I was having battles with, with what eventually became Hashimotos thyroiditis. So thyroid disease, which was undiagnosed for a long time. Yeah, and my body's a lot and being a professional ballet dancer and having a really low it's an autoimmune disease. But yeah, it's, it was really challenging. And so I was finding it very hard to have confidence in anything about myself and then when it came to my dancing, I was still in that mindset of if I could just make my legs look nicer if I you know, I've got really strong feet but they're not aesthetically beautiful like a lot of the other girls like I don't know, how about it, it's a really honor. Some other people probably say that to which I say hats off to you. But yeah, I just if I could just make that better. Yeah, my career will be better. But ultimately, it's it's not it's your career is going to be what it is. And they're, they're in a ballet camp, there is always room for a dancer like me. And that took time and maturity to realize there is someone has to be the person jumping, someone has to be the one moving fast. I'm a bit messy. And I'm always working on my footwork and trying to clean things up. But someone has to do that. And once I felt confident in that, that was something I could do that those other girls were like, how do you do that? I was like, I don't know, I just get in the air man, like, Oh, I'd love to be able to do that. I'd love to be able to stand still like you is a place that can be a place for everyone. And sometimes when it comes to casting things swing your way. And other times, they don't you realize your opportunities out there, you make the most of them. And then when you can see maybe there, what's tricky in the company, there might be a season you're not in very much, or there's not a lot of work for you. But you never know what's coming up next. And you know, often we do know what's coming up, but you never know what your next opportunity might be. So if you drop the ball, and think, Oh, this is my, this is my season where it's a bit average, or I'll just won't bother. Ya know what Julie, you might miss next because you're not ready. And that's these are the things that I have no doubt, I can say 100% have have created the opportunities that have actually made me and made my career not because, you know, I was built a certain way, being in the right place at the right time has has been very good to me. Yeah, and that you're right. It's like, it's you unless you're, unless you're ready for that opportunity when it comes? Well, actually, this person sort of slackened off a bit this year, because, you know, they didn't get so many roles. And we can see that. So we'll go to the next person, you know, so yeah, you've got to, you've always got to be motivated and still working and which would be intensely draining. Like it sounds like, you know, it's a full on life. Like you're just, I mean, obviously, lots of people do it. So it's sustainable. But from my point of view, someone who's not a dancer at all, and not highly motivated. It really it is and again, as a young student, you don't, it's what you want to do. It's your passion, it's your drive, you love it, you can't imagine not doing it. And you're willing to give up almost anything to do it. And it's so enjoyable. Like, I love dancing. I know last night I was on stage, and my old nanny actually was watching and she hadn't seen me dance after all these years. And she said, Oh, gosh, it just looks so much fun. And I said to her, I was like, I just have a stupid amount of fun when I'm on stage. And I know I've got my little kids at home, and I hope they're asleep and they ate them. And then I just had this. I know it's not a guilt, like guilty pleasure. I just, it's just so fun. Like, and I'm just lucky, I still enjoy what I do so much. But it is a lifestyle. It's it's not. It's not it's not a job for us. And I think, again, I can't speak for everyone else. But if it becomes a job, I don't think it's right anymore. Because it is so much more than that. And you have to put so much more into it. And in terms of just your hours, you know, we work really long hours, unusual hours. We rehearse in the days. We train every day, six days a week. We have Sundays off but we try and live every morning. We rehearse every day. We perform at night, but we don't just go in for the show at night. We train in the morning, rehearse show, two shows Wednesday two shows that day. 200 shows a year. It's yeah, it's the Australian ballet is one of if not the top amount of you know shows per year in terms of ballet companies. Yeah. Which takes a certain amount of resilience and managing your body and your mind over that time becomes a really important skill that you learn. It takes years to learn how to manage that. Yep, yeah. Can I help? Sorry, we were really doing a lot of talking about your ballet, which is dope, we will get to your family, it's okay. I'm just so honored to be able to speak to you. And I really want to squeeze everything out that I can because it's just really exciting. Like I said, my exposure to ballet, like with the girls that I grew up with, it was it was a world that I knew nothing about. I loved it. And I love watching ballet, it's just blows my mind how graceful and incredible it is. So I just want to ask you lots of things. I'm more than happy. You know, it's a lot of people find it quite a you know, it is this mysterious kind of world. And I'm, I'm always wanting to encourage people to ask questions. And it's, you know, there's obviously that version of ballet people often think about in their heads. And often it's a bit different to that. Or then there's the other one, which is like, Oh, is it like Black Swan? And it's like, well, there's little bits that are absolutely true. I'll be the first to tell you that it's not quite like that. But I think it's lovely that people are interested in in what we do. It's always a lovely thing. Awesome. Well, that's good. You can indulge me a bit longer than Absolutely. All right. So I'd like to ask you what your favorite roles have been that you've played and why. And I didn't even I didn't even give you a heads up. I was gonna ask you this. Sorry. No, that's, that's really I like being on the spot. Oh, that's really tricky. Because I'm, I mean, I've been so lucky. fortunate to have had such a wide range of roles and opportunities. Yeah, and across, you know, the starting Valley does a lot of strict classical ballet performances, you know, your swan lakes, you're not crackers does owls, kind of structurally classical ballet, Sleeping Beauty. And then we do a lot of contemporary modern work. And usually the year it's kind of somewhat, the balance is somewhat split. And I have had opportunities in kind of both sections of those repertoire groups. And it's kind of like when I was younger when people said, oh, did you like jazz or ballet? And I just liked it all. Yeah, it's the same thing. In what I do. Now, I just love it all. There's not one that's better than the other. And even as I get older, often people lean one way or the other. And I just, I just love it all, because I love dancing. And they all bring different challenges. I will say though, often certain roles at certain times in your career do seem to feel like they mean, even more. The one of my favorite, like all time, classical roles was Giselle. And I was very lucky I, I was able to dance the title role of Giselle, which I would never normally be casting because there's so many other girls who are so beautiful at it. And that's just the nature of it. Sometimes you don't get it, you know, you might get a go of all those girls weren't so good. But also, you know, stylistically, you know, some people might not cast me in that role, but it came out it came about because it was the regional tour of the Australian ballet goes out. And that year on I had my son Jasper a few months earlier. And I was talking with David McAllister, my director at the time about coming back and the the main company, we're actually going to London on tour then. And I was like, not up for that. Yeah. Actually, this is really great opportunity, if you would like the regional tour is taking out Giselle, and I think you'd make a really lovely Giselle, would you like to do it and this is like the Holy Grail of ballet. And I'm like, How can anyone say no like, like coming back after maternity leave? You know, talk about like not working your way up. It's like, it's the most incredible ballet role. It's the romantic ballet period. So it's not, you know, it's your long kind of soft tutus. Not your sticky outy. tutus. Yeah. And it's it's a beautiful ballet about this young peasant girl who falls in love. And then she realizes that he's actually a royal and he's engaged to someone else. And she has a weak heart anyway, and her she basically, cat, you know, goes into such a state and her heart gives way and she, she dies. And then the second act is the ethereal, otherworldly spirit world. And so she is one of the willies. They're called. And this beautiful quarter ballet scene, that's the big roof of the company, create this amazing atmosphere. They're like ghosts. And so Albrecht, who was the man she fell in love with comes to find her grave and her spirit. And she basically saves him because the Queen Miyata, Queen of the willies. So queen of all of these, you know, these girls who were jilted before their wedding days, they dance the man to death, anyone who dares enters the forest, you know, after dark, and Giselle with all her compassion and forgiveness dances until sunrise with our breaks this love of hers to save him. And, you know, it's a role that is so intricate, in terms of its dancing, but more than anything, just the story is so, so beautiful to tell, and you can really make your own mark on it. And to cut back after having a baby at that point, that role was so, so perfect and cathartic for me to dive into. Because there was just a whole new level of me that was able to have that absolute 100% all in love, compassion, forgiveness, I'll do anything for you know, that you have to have a child, that's just, you know, I don't even know how it comes out. But it's just a part of you. And I had this beautiful art form this beautiful music, this atmosphere and to just, you know, pour that all into so the timing of that roll, that roll in itself is is a gift to any ballet dancer or ballerina. Yeah, it's a real ballerina role. And, you know, I haven't had a lot of those ballerina moments, I could say, that might have been my one. But it was the timing of that, particularly that was so special in every single show. It's not about you know, if you got all your face positions, or if your turns were perfect. It's about, you know, your connection with your partner the atmosphere you create, and, and every show, I walked away just so happy and proud. And so touched and humbled by being able to do that at that time. You know, and I was like camping before the show. Yeah. And, you know, always bath in Jasper and then would rush to the theater and go into this other world. But that whole time did have this really special magic. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I will assume you. You've actually answered a question that I was going to ask you later about, because there's so much acting involved in your dancing. I think I think a lot of people realize that, that that's such a massive part of what you do. The way that you'd approach a role changed after you became a mom and you've just answered that without even asking it. It's just Yeah, I love I really think, again, that's a craft that you you have to learn across your years. You know, you come to as a young dancer and you're you're dancing and you know, you might do a bit of like, acting in terms of the ballets you're putting on it students, but that is a craft that you you learn and you know, I've been so fortunate that I've grown up in the company watching these incredible ballerinas and several of them were became mothers while they were still dancing, and I could see that transformation. I don't know how well they've had babies, but just the depth that the expression, the naturalness, the freedom, like there's so many things that come out of that, but you know, you sit there and you watch all those full rehearsals for the whole company in a room, running all these big ballets. And you you watch over the years how many We'll do those things. And when you get a chance to be able to wish I had at that point in time to put all of that in to a role. That was, yeah, such a magical time. Obviously, then there's valleys that don't have a story. And so, in terms of, you know, you're not acting per se, but you might, you know, there's obviously always envision in your mind that you're thinking of, or, you know, a vision the choreographer wants you to create, or an energy or a feeling or something in those kinds of contemporary works. And, you know, conversely, that's what I also enjoy about the contemporary repertoire that we, you know, we perform, is those kind of really physical, the expression is the physicality and the physical physicality almost has a persona, and you have a persona, when you're, you're dancing that even if there's not a story, yeah, that's your input, you embody those emotions or whatever the you're trying to get out. Yeah, yeah. And often, you know, obviously, ballet. For me anyway, the music is, it's the marriage of the ballet and the music, it's, that's when it comes to get it that alchemy, that's, that's what's, you know, goes across that, you know, the fault lines, that's what the audience takes on that their experience is that, you know, Alchemy that's happening in front of them, and that can be equally as powerful. In a contemporary work, I was very lucky I, when a choreographer call Wayne McGregor came out from the UK. He's a very, very renowned choreographer. And at the time, he just started as a resident choreographer at the Royal Ballet. So he was a contemporary choreographer, and then he started to move to the ballet space of it. And then not long after lots of ballet companies across the world, we're grabbing him to, like get a work by Wayne. Yeah, we were quite early in the piece, really, at that sort of time, we're able to, somehow now became, and he created a work called diet 1929 here, and that was a time he came into the room to obviously cast the ballet, we're in class, and I was quite young at the time, or maybe 24 or something, and, and I knew his work, I was like, so cool to be here. But you know, like, how do you how do you get in it? Yeah, you standing there doing fundraising? Like what can you see in my Tonberry, that's not very good, because I'm not very good at them still, that might show you that I or so want to be in your way. Anyway, really, you know, often ballets a cast from the hierarchy. So from the top of the company down, I was still in the quarterback at the time, which is, you know, the big ensemble down the bottom. But not everyone cast like that he came in, and he looked at the whole company as a whole. And it didn't matter where you were. Yeah, I think, anyway, very fortunately, got cast and his ballet, and then that ballet across my time. You know, that was such a, you know, working with him at that time was like groundbreaking for all of us. We've never worked with someone like this. He's so fast. He's so smart. He is. He does a lot of work with brain science and how he puts that into, you know, ballet and art a lot of people wouldn't even understand but for him, like, that's how he creates it. You watch his brain work. And you think, wow, I just like, you just see all the neurons firing. It was a really exciting time. It felt very, like we're in the moment cutting edge. And I, I was very fortunate to learn a spot in that. And so I was performing that and then across my career, every time we've done that ballot, then moved on to a different spot. Yeah, right. So for different spots in that valley, you know, we took it to New York. And you know, I did a different spot in that. And so I've kind of grown up in that valley. So that's one of my favorite contemporary pieces. Yeah, that's been my journey as well in terms of, I stepped up into, you know, different roles. And then my last show before I had my twin girls actually was in that valley in a white leotard, which is absolutely what you want to be in when you're pregnant with twins at 11 weeks. It's all it actually has been saying in about a month. So Valley mountains that you just, you cannot time it any better. But you are usually when you're, you know, early, you know, first trimester dancing, if you're pregnant, you have to be in a flesh leotard or while you're tired because it always happens like that. Nobody's like a free free dress or like something coming it's just always happens to fall in the most exposing of all so yeah, but same time that I knew that those were my last shows and I actually thought they were my last shows ever. And so to for it to be in that work. That particular work was really special to me, and I've done Lots of contemporary works. And they're all fantastic too. And they could so easily be my favorites. Yeah, but the timing again and what that whole valley and journey meant that yeah, that's a really special suspicion yeah I don't want to talk too much more about your ballet. I do want to, but I'm gonna make myself stop. But you've mentioned the music. And it's like, I absolutely that is. I don't want to say it's my favorite part of ballet because of course, the dancing is pretty awesome. But like you said, the way that it's all wrapped up together, and the costuming and everything and my favorite bit ever was in Swan Lake when because, you know, you've got that theme that dad did it, it did. I don't know what any of this is called. So just go with me here. When it turns when it changes at the end. And it's goes from being in a minor key tool, major key. And it's just it gives you goosebumps, it's like it just taught it tells you the story through the music, they don't even have to tell you what's happened to this character, this transformation. It's like you just hear in the music. And it's just that moment, every time I hear it, I just go Oh, survive. And to rely, you could just imagine how you How could you contain yourself when you're actually onstage doing that, like I always think like, it could just be like envelopes in it, you're just your whole body and your senses, it just be like charged, it'd be amazing. It's such a full body experience, I think and we are so used to that. And so it did that. And it's an incredible feeling, you know, some of the, the scores we dance to and, you know, some scores, you know, like the the big Tchaikovsky's or, you know, it's, you've heard them over and over. And I bet you've rehearsed. And I went and stopped going back. I can't stop, go back. You know, you've heard them cut up many times, you're often counting certain things. You know, the ballet we're dancing at the moment is Anna Karenina, and the score was made for this particular production. So it also marries so perfectly. Yeah. And, you know, it's a really tragic story, obviously. And there's some absolutely just heartbreaking musical moments that are just matched so beautifully with what's happening on stage. That, you know, we've seen it so many times. And it still it gives me goosebumps, and it still feels like ah, this is just like so. Yeah, it's just, I don't know, it's yeah, it's such a privilege, you know, to, to watch people in that moment or to be in that moment. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. It's beautiful. I love it all right, let's talk about your children. You've mentioned them briefly in passing. Tell us a little bit more about your family. I have three children, which still doesn't seem real when I say that to me. I'm not doing I do I do. Just make sure. I don't mean to discount the massiveness of that and I'm, I'm so fortunate to have been lucky enough to have three beautiful children. But I do still feel quite I don't know, I guess each day I'm just like treading water. So sometimes I don't stop to like acknowledge. Yeah, I've got three beautiful children. Jasper, my son is six. And he has grown up around the valley, which is a really unique, you know, he hasn't been here every every second but he's grown up around it. And He's toured with me and I went back to dancing after I had him dancing Giselle in that regional tour when he was nine months old. So he came out on the road with me and my mom and my mom has been like the biggest To support save, You're everything to me for my whole career. I mean, she was the one who took me to every dance class. And she is not a ballet mom at all. She doesn't know one step from the other. But she has just been there every moment. And so he's been very lucky to travel a little bit with me too, but he has a real appreciation for it. But yes, I have twin girls, Lulu, and Lottie, who are 18 months old now or a few days time. So they're little, very cheeky, very funny. little toddlers at the moment, were in that sweet stage before the that yes, I was. There's no twins in our family. And that came as a bit of a shock. Yeah. And, you know, I, this is something I think this is another part of the ballet world that, you know, I don't think he's really, I guess, thought about talked about, you know, obviously a woman's choice to have children when she has them. How that works with her career is a very, very personal choice. And I absolutely respect that people don't talk about it. But I think it's really interesting. And it's probably very similar for elite athletes. But again, I can just talk about the ballet experience. You know, artistically, you are, finally, after so many years of training, learning the craft, performing, you know, working, just optimizing, you get to your 30s, artistically, you're finally coming into your straps, you're not even there yet, probably you're just coming into your straps, you're coming into that zone, where it all starts to be cohesive and make sense. And you can feel that you can trust yourself, you can go for it. And that's also the years where you need to start about a family. And if you'd like to have one how that might work. And I think that is quite a battle for the dancers in that kind of part of their career, because how can you How could you possibly choose to stop? And then there's always thinking, Oh, what's it going to be like, on the other side, I'll lose a year I've got really good, you know, flow I've got, you know, you might be in a really good trajectory, you know, not just a ranking sort of thing. But just like with the roles, you're getting the impetus, the momentum, you're building your reputation, but just like how you feel in yourself, and then to then I'm just going to stop that now. And just take, firstly, nine months to have a baby. And I'm talking very pragmatically here. I know, this is obviously, you know, there's a whole lot more to it. But I'm just like to say it kind of nine months for that and then getting back into into it. How will that work? Who's my where's the support system? How would it work? It's I think it's a really daunting prospect. And you know, there's always like, Oh, but there's that ballet coming up next year. I've always wanted to do that. We can't dance till we're 60. It's not a career that lasts forever. So, yeah, I feel like you entered. I was lucky. I had Jasper when I was 30. And I was ready, then I was ready to stop. I was ready for it to not be about me. And I left it quite open in that sense. But yeah, I just think and you know, that's, you know, on the flip side, it's such a beautiful thing, that becoming a mum only makes your ballet career so much richer and so much more beautiful. And, you know, you can't know that beforehand. You see that in other people? But yeah, yeah. Also, then, you know, not that long after you might be thinking about retirement, I just think there's like this even like five year window, that's hyper pressure about what choices you're making, when you're making them. He's now a good time. If I'm, if I step away now, to do this, all those other girls are gonna get my impetus. And then when I come back when it's my place, it's, you know, but fortunately, I feel like when I chose to have my children, and when I, when I chose to have, you know, to say, Okay, I think I think I'm happy with what I've achieved here now, and I'd like to look at having another child in this case to that one. I was happy with what I'd achieved and it was too important. For me, it wasn't about what ballet was coming up. It was. It wasn't about that it was I would love the opportunity to have a child, another child and obviously we'd lucky to and so that trumps everything and very fortunately, we're lucky to have him At a beautiful girls. And we're a family of five. I love that so when you when you did have Jasper, did you think that was the end? And you were happy with that? Or were you still thinking I can come back? You know, I've got the support of my mom, I can, I can do this. And I could, I was very lucky that I'd seen women in the company go before me. And quite a lot of them honestly, because David McAllister, the director at the time, really pioneered the maternity leave and process of the Australian ballet, which is, again a front runner of worldwide standards, I could see that it was possible. I was encouraged by that. Again, they were the ballerinas as the company, I was a soloist at the time, so I wasn't on the same level as them. But also like an by level, I also mean, as a principal dancer, as principal artists, you are mostly not dancing every night and and show because you have your two or three Shows a week. This is not every week, but let's just change your Time Season. They're on all the time. But generally speaking, they have their specific shows, and you know, perhaps a bit more saying what they're doing and their timings. When you're Junior in the company, you don't you're in the biggest scene. So you're there rehearsing in the bigger scenes every day that need more time, you're not just rehearsing you and your partner, or can we do that at one today, because I've got to go or you're kind of at the mercy of the group. And then you're at the mercy of all the shows. So it's not about I'll be in the theater, like three nights a week, it's like, I'll be there six nights a week, like every week. So I had worked to a point where I'd got I was really happy with what I achieved. And again, at that point, I had a very clear mind that having a child was the most important thing. And if that was it, I was very open ended, you know if something if he was, you know, sick as a baby, or if I didn't feel like it felt right for me anymore. I would have stopped dancing. I just left it quite open. So a few months after he was born, I started doing some Pilates. And I thought now I've still got it in me and even though we don't have family in Melbourne, I was mum was able to talk with me. So I gave it a go. And then after when I knew I was pregnant with the girls I I then knew like at that first scan appointment, when I saw there was two, and I gasped he started crying. No. I'll never forget that moment. It was just it was such a indescribable, like, so many feelings. Not instantly, but I thought you know what, I think this is life telling me that this is probably time, it's time to enjoy the bit you've got left. And I was just hoping to get to that particular season that I was talking about previously to get to do that ballet died 1929. Yep. Because I thought that was a beautiful full circle. I was really sick and tired. Like really sick with the girls being pregnant with them. So I didn't know if I'd actually be able to make it to that point. But I just tried. Just gave myself each day at a time and I was able to get through those shows before COVID shut us down anyway. So I was able to do those shows. And then and thought they were my last. Yeah, yeah. I want to ask you, you've mentioned feeling sick with the girls. What's it like? Being like dancing when you are pregnant? Like do the does the company sort of make allowances? Do they? Do you have like special things that you're not allowed to do like that? How does it sort of work? Yeah, well, it is quite different for everyone. Obviously, you're not you know, you're not able to sit at your desk and hide away a bit and you know, discreetly go to the bathroom. If you're feeling a bit nauseous and I look it's a very vulnerable time for any woman and I it doesn't matter how many times you've been pregnant what the circumstances are. I think every woman feels very vulnerable until you feel like the pregnancy is safely on its way so I think you That's really tricky to balance with the fact that it's a very public public profession, you're in a leotard. People can look at you and you're not feeling great. You sense that other people can tell that they're still many, many weeks to go before you're in the clear, or you feel comfortable to tell your boss or other dancers. So it's actually a really yucky time. Irrespective if you're tired or sick. It's a very it feels really confronting and both pregnancies I felt really. Yeah, not. I don't enjoy that, you know, it's my first pregnancy with Jasper, I sprained my ankle ankle at seven weeks. And I think that was just a blessing, because I wasn't about maybe nine weeks, and I wasn't coping with just, like, feeling like it was so obvious, but you've got a long time to go, you've got to pretend you're still able to do everything, obviously, at any point you can, you can speak to staff, and they'll absolutely, you know, just keep like, keep that in mind. And, yeah, obviously, that that level of duty of care is absolutely there. But you know, as as a woman, you don't feel comfortable. Just you know, saying I'm eight weeks pregnant, you know, there's still four or five weeks to go before I really feel okay about this. But yes, it can affect the repertoire you're doing and obviously different partner and different lifts and things. Some some girls tell the partner they're dancing with, and some don't, because they don't want their partner to freak out. They're going to do something wrong, and you're guided by your health, your health care professionals, and I had a lovely obstetrician for the girls who said to me when Okay, let's talk about twins. And I just said, I surely can't do anything that I meant to be doing. And he said, No, no, you're and obviously, this is not medical advice. This is just what he said to me in my circumstance. He said, No, no, just you just do what you're doing. That's your life. Normally, just keep doing that. I want you to do that. He gave me some options for the sickness. But other than that, and he was just said, you keep doing that. And I told David at the time, when I was 10 weeks pregnant, I was so close to getting to the shows, but I just had to say no. And he was so excited. I love it. So excited. Yeah, certainly I'm sure in many years, not that long ago gone by it was not at all a comfortable conversation to have. Yeah, I that's something in itself. I always felt like this was exciting news to share. It wasn't like, oh, well, that's, that's going to be a shame. Or why did you choose now like you're just doing so well, there's none of that, in my experience. And so there shouldn't be but I'm sure in the years gone by it was seen as a, you're not as dedicated because you've chosen to do this. Yeah, absolutely. And there probably wouldn't be the option to come back, because people would judge you on that and go, Well, they've chosen that so that you don't come back? No, I think traditionally, absolutely. And David was very clear about making that cultural, you know, a huge, a huge change in that, that it was only supportive, and you don't want to be losing all your top women, just because they they realize they don't want to miss out on something that has a finite time. Our career has a finite time. And so does you know, the years where you are able to have your children and care for them and deal with, you know, their early years. That's what's so tricky. Our job is so demanding to what we often feel as ballet moms feel at odds with is that you know, those early child hood years are so intense also. And you don't want to miss lots of it. And you want to be forming that bond and that connection, but also your career there. They are your best years. And they're kind of endears. So it's like a really tricky. And you just find your way and they do complement each other. But yeah, it's a big, I think it is a big decision to kind of be confident enough. If you do want to continue to ask him to put a pause button and say this is really important that I have a family as well. And then I'm going to come back and I'm still going to be able to do what I can do. Yeah, absolutely. When you found out you're having tweens and you mentioned those emotions. Did you think how's my body going to? I mean, I suppose at that point you weren't thinking Coming back, necessarily. But did you think how's my body going to go? Then? After all the changes? It's going to go through having to at one time, will I will I be able to dance the same way? Or, you know, how will my body come back from that with its, you know, flexibility? All that that kind of stuff. Did you did that sort of? Was that something was you thinking? I guess, because I wasn't thinking about coming back. And, again, I'll just like the timing of it. Literally COVID had just hit Australia. A few days before that. Last season I did opened and we only were able to perform three shows a Friday into Saturday. And then everything was close. That was when everything shut down. Yeah. Sorry about it only recently performed in Melbourne this last week, since then, sorry. Which everyone thinks is actually some kind of miracle. Right? Do they days, you know, give this to them, care for them? And then come back. And, you know, oh, it's the opening of Anna Karenina that was meant to open two years ago. And yeah. But I guess yeah, my mindset wasn't on, on anything regards to ballet. Yeah, when I was, I wasn't absolutely dead set against coming back. But I just in my mind, I was leaning towards that. And I've never actually, you know, really thought too hard about that kind of physical change. In terms of my career, with, you know, with pregnancy, I did, you know, I was pretty concerned about having a twin pregnancy genuinely, it's, it is a high risk. And, you know, we had our own complications along the way. And so nothing's taken for granted. And I think that perspectives enough to be like, you know, if you, if you can't get your leg up pie anymore, it's really, it's really not important. So I was just amazed my body could handle the twin pregnancy generally. Because I'm not, there's not a lot of room. Amazingly, they make room but pretty, pretty uncomfortable at the end. And, but it's also like I, a lot of people think somehow being a valid answer must help you in birth or something. And perhaps it does, but I think more than anything, it's just that you've been so strong your whole life, that on the flip side, your recoveries probably a bit. A bit easier, even from a twin pregnancy, then yeah, maybe someone who hasn't been as active and just so aware of, you know, muscles and how things feel. And yeah, I mean, I think a lot of valid answers. So if they do go back, they try to go back really quickly to dancing and they miss it. Like, I think physically, they miss it, and they miss feeling like that. And they have, you know, a really clear vision and for whatever other reasons, which are their own, they want to dance so quickly again. I mean, I didn't have that. That's just not part of me, but also after the twins. I mean, I wasn't sleeping until they were like 10 months old, proper properly. So I don't know where in that I was meant to be. In that to be thinking about doing ballet. i If there was ever a 10 minutes, I would try to lie on the couch. You know, I wasn't like oh, just do some exercise. It wasn't really my headspace. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I want to bring up I've had my own experiences with postnatal depression. So I can relate to a lot of stories that my guests share. And you've been really vocal about your journey. And I want to commend you for that, because I think it's so important that we talk about it so that it becomes like a normalization of this is, this is something that happens to a lot of people. And it's not something to, you know, be scared of or hide away from, we're going to talk about it so everyone can sort of help each other and, and ways to get through it. If you're comfortable sharing we can you tell us a little bit about that experience. Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, it's, you know, I I agree. It's, it's a topic that I believe should be spoken about more. You know, I can also understand you don't want to put that on to new months in that, oh, you know, it can be this hard and it can be so bad and you know, when they're going through such a transformative experience, and some people are not affected in that way. So you don't want to be Putting that experience onto everyone. But by the same token, there are so many women who are really battling with something that is out of their control. And it's meant to be the happiest time of your life. And it isn't, you feel quite unhappy, really. And on top of that, you're so sleep deprived, and so unable, what feels like so unable to cope, and then the guilt of not feeling like it's the happiest time of your life. There's so many levels of that, and the layers just kind of keep building each day. And it is, it's this, it's this kind of base and I can see, you know, externally now that why you feel like you can't say anything, and I felt that like that at the time, and I have such amazing support. And, you know, Locky is, is my greatest support in every way. And, you know, I had to sometimes some days, I had to feel, find the bravery somewhere in myself to actually say how it was. Because it felt like such a big thing to put on to someone else who's already supporting you, you know, and if that's your mom, or if that's anyone, but just to be like, it's actually really bad. You know, these are actually the thoughts I'm having. And I don't mean to be dramatic, because it's actually is that bad, you know, and mine. My postnatal depression, and anxiety kind of set in quite quickly. And, you know, I know everyone has a different experience. And yeah, I guess I'll just share mine. But yeah, twins is quite a shock. And I was so euphoric, I had this amazing, beautiful birth with them. And yeah, I had natural deliveries. And they were, you know, we, they were almost full term, and they were healthy. And after a really long pregnancy, worrying, like the relief for that. And I couldn't believe my body could do that. And I was like, This is great. And, you know, they were feeding well. And I was managing to feed them, somehow duck tanned and feed them, which is just somehow managed to do that. And you know, so you know, that first bit that first week or so, like, wow, I made two babies. And it's, um, yeah, I was, I actually did feel that pride and that, you know, we were ecstatic. And then, you know, the actual care of twins, and obviously, multiple births, you actually are just statistically at a higher risk of postnatal depression, because it's just hard. Yeah. And I was very lucky, I had people around me who said it like that, you know, and I had a really great obstetrician in Brisbane, where we had the girls eventually, I remember the six week appointment we had, I had it at four weeks, because we had to go back to Sydney at that time. So like, he could go back to work. And we had it a bit early. So it was even earlier than you know. And I walked in, and he was like, how he going and I said, like, death warmed up, and we'd had a terrible night, 20 minutes sleep the whole night. I was feeding them. At that point, trying to establish as is to better at once is one everyone says put them on a schedule schedule, put them on a schedule. And for someone who's had a schedule my whole life, like I, I would take to that like a duck to water but these babies still didn't know that. willing to do it. And I'm still feel like there's a part of me that, you know, was was perhaps keeping twins for a reason because I can stick I'm determined, I will make them do the same things at once. But not at that stage. They you know, and they're so you know, their tummies are so little and all of the, you know, you're up padding and tap, you know, do they need more and all of that, but times two. And so after even just four weeks of that, and no sleep. And I was feeding them so that's exhausting, obviously. And it really came on like a, you know, like a freight truck, even by that point. And then we moved back to Sydney. And I met a really wonderful, very just by chance. My maternal child health nurse there was incredible and a really important person in my journey because straightaway, even though she'd never met me, and I told her our, our story, and you know, my I hadn't seen my son Jasper, who was in Melbourne with his dad. And he'd been there 10 weeks and because the borders were closed with COVID Oh, yeah. And it's like, right, so you're here. You had the girls in Brisbane, because you had to fly up, go up, drive up there do hotel quarantine because of the risk. There was a risky birth situation anyway. So we had family support, so you had to leave your son in mail. When you're here in Sydney, you've been around a bit, you've just had twins, feeding them. And she's just like, this is, this is a lot. And she's like, No, you're not around your friends like, and you know, my work friends are my family. You're not around you use your usual people. You're at a really high risk here. And, and I was like, really? Ah, no, I'll be right. And she's, and she was like, no, no, we're, we're going to look at this. And I'm going to tell you like in a really great pragmatic way with someone who's so sleep deprived, and emotionally drained, needs to sometimes hear it so bluntly. And she's like, it's, you know, twins, it's about twin management. And, you know, I was like, but I meant to be like, loving them and like caring, and like looking at their toenails. And I'm like, I don't even know what their toes look like. That feeling of like, how much your adoring them and like staring at them. And with twins, you feel like, in fact, I can see you're getting, you're trying to get to know two people at once. So you're getting double the input, like feedback, but you can't process so I felt like it took me so much longer to know which one liked what and which one needed and to feel equally as close and in connection with an in tune with both, because it was just like, kind of like not a production line. But it's just it's just all routine. Yeah, yeah, it was. And, and that was to our to get to a point that it was to our benefit, so that you weren't up all day and all night with one baby at a time. So it was all working towards that. But to make that happen is is like hard work like effort, like one's up, okay, get the other one out. Okay, feed, that one's going out, put the other one down. Like it's, it's not just go with the flow. And I thought being a second pregnancy second baby, I'd love to be that like go with the flow parent, which ultimately probably doesn't suit my personality. But to just be more relaxed and to know it all passes. And to know, you get through it. And but it was it was such a different experience. So how could I and I, I really needed so much support. And I'm just to this day, every day. So grateful I had access to support. I know it makes me so sad to know that there's women out there who just don't have that support, or someone saying you need, I'm going to funnel you into a system and you're going to go to that mother baby and or you're going to have this appointment, or we're going to squeeze you into a telehealth to talk to someone because right now, that's crucial. It's not just like, oh, you know, four weeks time we'll do. It's like, right now this needs to happen. And very, very fortunately, with twins, in those sorts of areas, you do sometimes get a little bit of a, you get a priority. It's like we know this, this is yes has to happen. Yeah, which I you know, I was really grateful for that so I had people checking on me, and I felt so incapable. And just, you know, yeah, just so out of my depth. And, you know, I was just like, I think back and it is an every time. It's like, it's like a dream, like, and not always a good one. But it's like and I with my son, he came up to see us and I'd you know hadn't seen him it's so long, which was just so hard in itself. And he was meeting his new sisters and he had so much energy and I had so little to give him and it's just you know, there was always a baby that needed something and you know, he's been so patient and had to adjust but it took me a long time, especially with how I was feeling and how low I was feeling. And so anxious. You know, even when I got to sleep, I couldn't sleep. I didn't know again until I'd spoken to my nurse and to the psychologists I eventually spoke to that I that that feeling of rage or like anger, but mostly that that rage that like volcanoes up inside you and you just need like a you know, the pressure valve just needs to release is is a real, real sign of anxiety you You just think I'm just a horrible person. And I'm just so mean to everyone. And I'm so angry, and it's not fair. And why am I so awful? And he's like, No, it's the pressure release of you're so anxious. And I think in my career, I'm so used to dealing with pressure. And even if you're anxious, you're able to deal with it. Either squash it, compartmentalize it, do something with it. I didn't have an outlet. I didn't have time. You know, anyone talks about moms having time for themselves. It's like, that was a joke. When was like, understandably, it's just not, it's also not a fact, when he had young twins, and leaving the house, and people would talk to me at the cafe, and I just, I wouldn't even know how to talk. Like, I just, I just looked down, please don't talk to me, please. Lovely, have more and just like so. And, and you feel and it's another point where you just let I just don't feel that. Like they're so beautiful, and I love them. But my experience is just like, I can't get through this. I'm I'm just floundering. And that mismatch between what what people expect or think, is another layer of like, RC like I should be. And if I could just like what I said earlier about, but if I could just work harder if I could just think differently. I'm sure I could turn this around. But really, I needed a lot of help and support. And in time sleep. Yeah. Yeah, I needed an iron infusion. I needed, you know, there was a whole plan that I was very lucky, multiple people, you know, and I had an incredibly supportive partner who sat there and looked me in the face. And you know, how old were you when I said awful things, you know, really was like, I don't like having to say this. But if I get this out, it has less power. And then we could kind of like, move through it. And so over time, and I noticed too, this is something that it feels like too much to be like, I need an hour to do my telehealth with my psychologist, you know, especially with a young family and Jasper was at school. And there was always a reason I could have just cancelled that I was lucky to get into a psychologist with the Gates Foundation in Sydney. And so that really worked, especially not having to go out of the house. If I had to go to an appointment, I probably wouldn't have prioritized it again. I was lucky in that COVID time that telehealth was a thing. And yet, when I dropped a few weeks, it wouldn't happen immediately. But it would start to come in again, I'd feel that that ends all day anxiety. And as soon as one of the girls would wake up before I wanted her to it was so frustrating. And why are you? Why are you not doing what I thought you're meant to be doing. And now I have to get the other one out and restart again. And it's school pick up tight and just it would my coping mechanisms would start to fall away again. And obviously, everything feels like it falls apart. So definitely talking to someone, you know, weekly became a priority. And if that meant I heard, you know, my mom with the girls, and they're both screaming as hard as that was, yeah. It, I had to at some in some way. Prioritize that hour. And then once the girls were able to be in a routine that was more consistent, they didn't sleep as well as my son ever did. And, you know, every time they went through a sleep regression, one of them would always hit it worse than the other. And, and you know, not that long ago, you know, one of my girls was up for like six hours a night for a couple of weeks. And you're just like, What do I do? How How is ones just sleeping? And but you what do you do with a baby for six hours says every Monday, every overwhelmed of all time. And of course you get through it. But I could get through that because I'm in such a better place. And I've had some sleep. And it seems so simplistic to say, Oh, you just need time and sleep. But really, fundamentally, they're two really important things that help you with young babies. Yeah, absolutely. Sleep is sleep is king. You just get anxious about it. And so I'm like set on how everyone's sleeping how the baby's sleep times to this case, which it was ultimately everything. How you're sleeping, how my son like anyone who'd make a noise that would potentially you know, a lot of symptoms of postnatal depression and anxiety I you think all you feel pretty, pretty sad and pretty low bit unmotivated. You're not enjoying it as much. A lot of the Symptoms like I couldn't handle light. I couldn't handle sound my son's footsteps running down the corridor. We're just like, Ah, it's just so loud in here one night, I was asking people to turn off the lights and the TV. And everyone was so lovely and, you know, receptive, but they looked at me like, oh my gosh, yeah, it's really not that bad. But the sensory overload for someone who was already at the end of it, like wit's end on every level, I think was just too much of a trigger. When I, I had my first son 14 years ago, and we, you know, you go to the prenatal classes, and this guy came in from Beyond Blue, I think, Oh, I can't remember where he was from, he might have just been from the hospital. So basically, he, he said to us, you're going to have times when you feel beat down, it's going to be hard. You're going to have, you're going to feel you're gonna get the baby blues. So good luck with that. And that was what, that's what they told us about, about postnatal depression. And it was like the intensity, oh my gosh, actually can be. And also, by this point, for anyone, when you're having a child, it's the responsibility you feel like, is overwhelming at times. Even though this is something you desperately wanted in that it doesn't change the fact that it's a huge responsibility that everything to do with this little person, or these two little people, it is about you and your decision. And every decision you make, you know, it's I think, trivialize it like that, compared to, obviously, you know, what it's like, it's couldn't, couldn't be, you know, more polar opposite to how intense it feels. It's absolutely not baby blues. And you know, that's what I say to anyone I know, who's having a baby or has had a baby, you know, like, I'm up in the night often anyway, so if you need to call anyone, please just know, you can always message me or call me or anything, because it's, it's not trivial. And there are some moments in time that you might actually just need someone. And as someone who, it doesn't matter what you've done in your life previously, as someone who by that point usually feels a bit capable are a bit like, you know, I can manage things to feel so incapable is, and so at a loss is such an unsettling, despondent feeling, let alone then feeling like that, and being responsible for someone else. Hmm. Yeah. I want to touch on when you said, when you spoke to your, the nurse that you said was really, really good. When she sort of told you all these things, these were massive things that were impacting, and, and you sort of said, I'll be right. Were you feeling like at that point? And you don't have to answer this if I'm trying too much. Did you feel like because I'm sort of trying to relate it to my experience? Did you feel like you had to pretend it wasn't happening? Or did you really genuinely feel like it was wasn't happening? I don't think I was aware how bad it was, even though I felt really bad. I knew it was I think it's like everyone has that pride. And I think I thought I could get through it. Or a bit like if I just do this in this a nice it'll, it'll go away or or it will get better. Yeah, I guess that was her point was just, you know, it's it doesn't have to be okay. You have so much going on, not to mention a pandemic. Yeah. Parents of the last two years, have not been able to access for their children for themselves for their families, the same levels of care, the lack of, you know, the lockdowns, the restrictions that the people popping over the all of those little things that at such a critical time, might be that one person you spoke to who you got to have a hug with, or might be, you know, all of that wasn't there. And I think I'm used to coping with quite a lot. I'll be the first to say I don't cope very well with change, or with anything going not to plan. Even though a whole lot of things in life in my life. You know, like, really there's been A lot of change and a whole lot of things that I've actually had to cope with. I think I cope externally very well. But internally, I, I battle how well I'm coping. And also I you know, you don't want to be a downer for everyone. I think that's another layer that no, we will women who are feeling, you know, like they are postnatally depressed, that you don't want to be a burden on other people. You want to live up to what you're meant to be living up to, you know, yeah, that is so true. You just not. And again, sometimes it has to be as plain as day is that. And also that first appointment, I think, you know, I had all these questions about the babies and you know, this feeding this and, you know, sleeping in their tummies, all this stuff, you had this list of things like all every new moms, dads, and she's like, I don't want to talk about babies. It was so amazing. So experience is I want to talk to you my mind anxious me, I just wish we could get to the things I want to talk about. So I'm getting to know both of us, myself lucky, our stories, how we got to this point, and you know, obviously with the traveling and the quarantine, and all of the know driving on the highway and all of this and Jasper and and she's like, you know, it's a pyramid structure. And she said, everyone thinks that the parents are, you know, come last, and there at the bottom, but it's actually the other way around. If you're at the top, and it filters down. If you guys aren't okay, no one's okay. And then when it came to me, if you're not, okay, no one else is okay. And that's not a burden to you, that's just where we need to put you in this picture. Because you're going to be putting yourself down here and everyone else comes first. And that the baby's needs come first. And as someone who does like perfection in that way, whenever they'd cry, I'd feel like a failure. When I couldn't settle them, I'd feel like a failure. And like lots of mums do because that's your feedback. And you equate that to how well you're doing at being a mum. And when you've got two of them at once doing that. Or when you've just got one settled and the other you think your status quo is constantly being disrupted. So therefore, you must be doing a terrible job. And someone else would be doing this better than you. But she, she kind of was the right person for me to be saying, you know, they're going to cry sometimes, and you're not going to like it. But if that means you got to eat something that is okay. Because if you don't put any of your needs first with twins, you will never ever look after yourself. And that's going to trickle down. And that's no good for anyone. So I had to relearn I have to actually in my very sad, anxious, not really, you know, really fuzzy how fuzzy you feel. Yeah, you are in that, that place like other than the tiredness, but there's a fuzz that, you know, you can't even make a sentence. Even still, I had to with practice with time, we support and someone checking in and going over this, again, really learn about putting some of my needs first, to then be able to help other people. That's it's a massive, a massive thing. To, for someone to ask you to do that. And then more massive to actually put into practice. That's, it's huge, isn't it? Because that's not how we're not, we're not wired to think that way. We've we've just got to give given given given give. So we kind of do feel, perhaps all mothers always do. But I do you sense in this time when I talk to my mom and you know, women of that age, that the pressure younger parents now put on themselves to be everything for their children. every second and every moment is a teachable moment. And, you know, if you did it this way, they won't have tantrums because they'll have all the food and you know, because you will have practiced these strategies and all of this and you sat with your child and looked him in the eye and all of that, you know, someone's having a meltdown in Kohl's and you've got to get back to work in like half an hour. It's really hard to be that parent. And we have that vision in ourselves. Like I want to be this parent and myself. I wanted to be that parent and then I had new born twins and I thought I knew some some things about having a baby turns out with twins it's a totally different story. And I just did absolute like sleep deprivation doesn't you know and that's what I just you know, I can't even believe I got through and any twin parents is because it's such a. Anyway triplets. quarters don't even single babies are really tricky to and it's, it's separating that like having that difficult baby or that tricky baby does not relate to how well your mothering like, it is not the same thing it's so hard to. And again, you need other people drumming that into you, reminding you and I, you know, I'm lucky that I have, I have those people around me. So I've found my way through and to, you know, not just to an end that big story. Sorry, very long story positive, but I do feel like and not that I wish this on any other mother, ever. But I do feel like the enjoyment I get from my girls. And the joy I have with them now that I had been through that experience of being so down. It really is amplified because I see it. And I remember when I first started feeling better over time, and then you have your bad days again. And then you know it's incremental. But when I actually enjoyed them, I just like cried with happiness. I just thought, oh my gosh, I'm enjoying them. Oh my gosh, like, and I think the appreciation for that was so huge. And I you know, I know there's challenging times ahead, children, but I do, I do have a greater sense of that appreciation for that, you know, enjoyment. And the present illness after feeling so not present. So spacey, so unable to be in the moment because you don't even know where you are. And sometimes you just wished you are asleep. Most of the time. Do not thank you for sharing that. So candidly, I appreciate it. And I'm sure there's a lot of people that listening that are going to kind of take a lot from it. So thank you. Sorry, that that's the only you know, that's what not that I mean, but I do feel like that is the one one blessing of going through that experience is that you were able to help so many other people by sharing yours. And that is the only reason I have you know, I've shared about that in my own in my own space. And you know, I'm very lucky that I've had that support and I just like I said before, I just so hope that other women have that too. And if that means one day when they're having a really bad day and they happen to read something you know, which has happened to me before to you read something on a particularly bad day and might just help you see that evening witching hour, just somewhat a bit differently for that one day. If I can help one person one day by them reading something, then I'm I'm really glad. Yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom, if my mom Alison Newman. After you start to feel, well, you're enjoying these moments and things are feeling feeling improved for you. When did you get that spark that you thought? I'm gonna go in depth again? Well, I wasn't actually feeling much better when I first started thinking about that. Yeah. Yeah, so dancing again, in, in a kind of condensed fashion, which I'm not good at, as you can see it again, was part of me feeling well, again, and I couldn't have known that at the time. Like I said, I really didn't think I would dance again. And the most exercise I would get would be when I was in the girls room, and they might have just like settled and I didn't want to open the door and the light come in. So I'd lie on the floor. And do you know, my pelvic floor exercises, that's that's the extent of where I was at. And that wasn't so I could get back on stage that was just to be a functional person again, and I have a really incredible Women's Health physio, which I also very much recommend to any any woman anywhere, no matter what you've done in your life. But you know, that was something that was just good for me. That was not, I'm just going to start with this because that'll be helpful when I'm dancing. There was no dancing thoughts. I would go over ballets when I was like rocking them to sleep in in their room, or like settling them like sometimes a random step would come out. But I was thinking about my retirement speech more than anything. And then COVID At the time I thought I probably won't even have anything and then I thought that's so sad like After 18 years like that, it just, you know, some people choose to have it that way. And I wouldn't have had a fanfare but I always thought when I retired, I'd have my family there. But yeah, I think about what I'd say. And they're the thoughts that would come and go in my, you know, spacey state that was my dance world. And so it was actually people around me mainly Locky. Because he's so supportive of me and my career. And it would be very easy to say, Oh, this is too hard. Donna, you know, Donna, you know, he tours, obviously, he's very busy with his job. And he loves his job. And, you know, he, you know, that's his dream job. And he is so good at it. It's, you know, we love watching him and but just, you know, the, the, we both have very demanding jobs in the eyes. Yeah, there was never a question of like, are from anyone that my mind was less significant in any way, or that it would be easier if I stopped dancing, because then that would work better for the family or just be easy, at some point, that probably will become part of the reason you know why we shift into a different way of how our family works. But just because I'd had two babies was not a reason for that to happen. So here's the first person who wanted to see me dance again, if that was something I wanted to do. So he he was very supportive over time in his beautiful way, not in your face just a little bit every day. Go in and have the conversation, you've got a contract still, your position is there. It's not trying to get a new job. It's your job. It's your position, have a chat, but not like what how could I talk? This is ridiculous. Don't even think about that. Go in and have a chat with David David Hallberg, our new director. So this was a new director for me, so I'm gonna who doesn't know me. And that was quite daunting in itself. So eventually, by about seven months, the company was in Melbourne at the time, they just had a Sydney season that somehow managed to squeeze in with COVID. And I arranged an appointment and decided to go in and you know, I could have not gone that day, I felt terrible, you know, I was going to miss a feed from the girls. And, you know, they'd never been left do that anyone else? Really? My mom was there lucky. I don't know if lucky was there that day. But yeah, it just all felt too hard. Of course, it's too hard. You know, there's so many other things. When you're in that, like baby space, that's too hard, leaving the house, one of them any variable for someone who is very much struggling with the day to day, a variable is too hard. Like go in and have a chat. So I put, like proper clothes on which I hadn't done and drove my car, which I also hadn't done in a while. And, you know, all of these things, and it felt like stepping out into the world again. And that was incredibly I remember, also being in this state I was, it was a sensory overload all of it, like the light, the sounds, just everything's coming into the carpark going in the left, I felt sick. Coming up, you know, it wasn't like, Oh, I'm home. And this is, you know, this is so lovely. I spent all my life here, it's, I was not in that stage. And also things had really moved on. That building felt different. I'm so glad I did, obviously. And David was very gracious in probably accepting me in that state. And, you know, I'm also a new person to him, and I just kind of flat out said, I've had a really, really rough time, and I didn't think I'd dance again. And he's like, you know, what would you like to talk about? And I said, I just I think I might want to try. You know, it wasn't a hugely confident telling yourself. I might want to try. It's like, what would that look like? I don't know. I've run out. I couldn't look him in the eye. And, you know, I just I was a shell of myself. And he just said, Well, how about you to start somewhere? I said, I don't know what, what I could come back to, you know, I was thinking like roles or seasons or and he's like, just don't even think about that. Just start somewhere, just babysit. And I was like, you know, you feel like you've got to offer something. I'll, I'll work I'll come back and I'll do that or I'll try for that series that just just don't yeah, don't think that far ahead. Just just in me Reality, if I'd actually thought about everything I have to do to get in this building every day, and to tour, I would not have gone in that day at all. So it was absolutely right on all fronts. So then I started coming in. And that was my therapy, I guess I'd come in and do Pilates kind of conditioning exercises that are quite specific what we do here. And, you know, I've done them for years. And I was very lucky that everyone knows me very well here. And in terms of, you know, the artistic health team, know me very well. I know how I function best and they weren't in my face. Some, you know, there's some mums amongst them. And they, they know, they knew instinctively what I needed. Sometimes that was just done. This is done a space, she's coming in today. And she's, you came in today, and I was like, and they're like you came in today. And then I start doing my little toe push up to the theater events. Yeah. And, you know, they could sense the days, I just needed space for myself. And that's essentially what it was. Because if I was home, I was always doing something I couldn't, we just coming back from Jessa, it was different, I could do a lot at home and he was asleep. The girls were still up and down all the time. There was always something to do food to cook a snack to get Jasper to, like, I had to go somewhere to have my that my time. And so that started like that incrementally. Then I joined our like daily training class. And that was, again, usually we work with Megan Connolly, who's our rehab coach, you normally go in with her and you know, do a couple of weeks, just one on one. And she's like, so you're gonna go into class today. And I said, Oh, but like, what are we going to do? And she's like, on in and I just go in there. I was like, no, that's just like, this is a studio with people, other people. And like a teacher and a penis. And I was like, I just, I can't, I can't like so many people in the eye, it really, you know, was a full body experience trying to get myself back into the world. And I did that by coming back into ballet, into something I knew. And that even like, all at that point. And even to vary up to when I did my first shows, I had to think if I don't get to do shows, if I don't get if I stop before I get to the like the goal or the cherry on top that I've this has been a successful worthy process, because this is what needed to happen for me. So it's more about the process rather than the end goal. It was about all those steps, and how that was like your therapy. It was actually it was and my maternal child health nurse had commented on that so much earlier. So how are we going to get you back to work? Like, that's just can't too hard. It's just we're gonna have to think about if you want, but we'll have to think about that. And I was not in that headspace. Whereas someone like her externally so much experience, I think could see pinpoint. This, this woman is going to need even for a short window of time to find a part of herself that has been so not thought about. And so I started in class for a little bit. Some days, I'd have to leave because I was overwhelmed by it wasn't even the ballet, the actual dance and everyone's like, Oh, it looks like you've never left and I'm standing there like a shell of myself and can't even express how different I felt. Physically. I was going through the motions. So and that's what I think is is tricky externally, after 18 month sort of dancing. Twins. i And I don't mean to say this, in a sense, it's precocious, but I was actually just going through the motions giving the actual dancing side of things such little thought because it was actually so much more a mental battle for me to stay in the room. People are there. They're going to look at you sometimes their eyes. Okay, you did it like, yeah, yeah, it was it just Yeah, it's like your body just almost had its own experience there. It knew the muscles knew what to do. It just did its own thing. And you could let it do that. In the meanwhile, the you know, inside your head. All this is happening. And yeah, and it's hard. People don't say that. Like literally, like you said, they said, it's like you never left. So they're only seeing this outside and they're not, you know, seeing the whole picture. So yeah, it's the realizations that come to me when I'm dancing. That's always been the case. But especially in that time and even still, the distance I have from being at home when I'm At the ballet, and when I'm dancing, things come to me and I solve problems in my head. And yeah, you know, I have these epiphany moments all the time about my kids and about mothering. When I'm at the bar. It comes to me then. Ah, so it is there's something about that. And maybe just because I've grown up doing it, and there's live music the first day, when someone started, we have, you know, a live pianist. So they start playing plays, and they improvise every day, all these exercises, and I just, like, my mouth was open, I was just like, oh my gosh, that's right. So I'm gonna just plays music for your day. Someone amazing, just plays music, music all day for you. was a really profound one. But I think I could unravel a lot of what had happened over the last 18 months, by being in that space. Yeah, wouldn't have to do at home for sure. Or even, you know, gone for a run or something it might have might have worked that there was something about, like you said, my body being a little bit on autopilot, that my mental chat could start to unravel a little bit. Okay, the space, it's, it's almost like, like a meditation in some ways that, like, I mean, I know, traditional meditation, you lay down, and then your body's at rest, so your mind can work. But sort of, in that way, like, your body's just doing its thing. You don't have to think about it. And then yeah, all this stuff, you're open to process, like it's a problem solve. And I feel very, I had such like a vehicle actually, that was way too daunting at the start, but actually became, you know, the art form that I've loved forever, actually, was the way into, you know, the new version of me that was all put together. Every kind of come before. Yeah, that's, that's incredible. It's like it truly is a part of your identity. And it just needed it was like that. Yeah, like I keep coming back to this word therapy was and that nurse was was experienced enough to see that, that that was going to be part of your healing was to get that part of your life back again. Yeah. And that's how long you know, who knows, and it's not about that. And I was lucky enough to be able to, after Melbourne, got out of the last longtown last year, we had a gala celebration season in December, it was a 10 day runner shows at the Art Center. And I was lucky enough to be ready at that point. I I'd only just come back full time. And so that was a personal choice, too. I extended my maternity leave beyond the 12 months, because I wasn't ready yet to leave the girls. I wasn't ready to have my schedule dictated to. I still needed to have because everything just took longer. And with twins, it just does. I think for everyone to find their feet for the tweens to settle into life like everything. Yeah, yeah, but certainly I wasn't ready to be after that long fighting to be there and enjoying them to then just evacuate and be at work you know, for 1012 hour days. So I took a really slow slow ride in and that meant I was working Training Training obviously you can't just turn off on day one. So from you know, from when they was eight months maybe not wasn't actually was like 10 months old. That's when I started some physical stuff and then I did all of that on my own time on my own schedule and then the week before shows opened as I'd planned but they everyone knew but I was like that's when I finish things that you've got a week and then a week of shows and I'm going on holiday Yeah, so again like compartmentalizing things like right from the start how lucky was saying just go into a chat and then you had you had David just saying well just try the sword you know it was it's breaking that down because the overwhelm if you think about everything is just too much it's just it's not it's not good yeah. The topic of mum guilt in and I guess everyone has different views. Use of what that is some people think it's a load of rubbish, which is great. Other people have like really relate to it, which is fine. Everyone's different. Have you ever had any experience with that? Or your thoughts about that are definitely have experience with mom guilt. That's something I feel all mums do face. And I will I'm certainly I certainly do. And a lot of the ballet mums here, that's a big one for us. Obviously, feeling guilty all the time serves no one. So I'm aware of that, too, that it's, it's a, it's a sensitive feeling that isn't really helping anyone. But what we do here at the ballet feels very self centered and self absorbed. It's such a giving up form, but our experience of how hard it is and the work we need to put in and the conditioning and the focus. And the I've got to get to the theater at this time. Because I've got to get my hair, I've got to do my makeup, I've got to think about my steps. And all of that changes after you become a man, you minimize everything and into the small amount of time as you can. But there's still the sense that I'm doing something for myself here. Like I'm, I'm focusing on myself, and I want that role. And I want to do that on stage and every one. I want to feel that. And you can't help but think I've got these little people who are like, Hey, Mom, I want you to but yeah, you know, so I very much relate to that. Whilst also understanding it's not really helpful. But there was something that I come back to, and what has often come from people reminding me and then I try to repeat it for myself is that your children, seeing you as a whole person is really important. And your children, especially with what we do seeing, seeing, you're so dedicated and so passionate, and loving something so much. What brought to you is really, really important to especially as a mother. And I think the uniqueness of what we do and touring half the year, the you know, the changeability, that pulling kids out of school or daycare and taking them to Sydney for two months, can feel like a bit of a liability and a bit of a, you know, kind of mixing their life up so much. And you know, with my son, I felt really guilty, he hasn't been able to do regular swimming lessons. And he hasn't been able to do soccer. And you know, I can't always be the one at the school gate. And even though when I was at home with the little girls with my twins, and he started school, when I stood at the school gate, I felt so out of place, I felt, I just felt so out of place. I just, I just I just yeah, it was actually a really uncomfortable feeling. And he didn't actually really care if I was if it was me there or not. Some days he does, and he is but he's also had such a colorful, interesting childhood already. I tried to flip that round, to say actually, he's had exposure to things that other kids haven't had. Yes, they've had playdates regular playdates, they go to soccer every Saturday, and the routine of that, and, you know, maybe the social constancy of that, you know, he hasn't had, but he's also had exposure to so many other things. So in context of my work and knowing it's not forever, knowing at some point, and probably, you know, by the time the girls are at school, I will be at the school gate every day, makes this time even more precious. And, you know, I do hope that, you know, they can see that their mom, you know, in did look after themselves, so that I could look after them. I do hope at some point in their lives, they can, they can see how valuable that was. And I might Santi now at the ballet, and he just had the best home ever so football with with the dancers, and that's something that other kids don't get to do. That's it. Yeah, absolutely. It's about although I think it's um, it relies again, on, you know, routinely reminding yourself of the value that your your art and your work is giving to you, and then how that's trickling down into your family. I definitely have more energy and more, more empathy, more support, more, more valuable time, if I've just had a bit of time for myself. At the moment that time is being spent doing something that I love, which is dancing. And at some point in the future, I have to find something else that that time is for so that that can still trickle down. Yeah, absolutely. You have you have that thing that feels that pick up and then you can you can give to others. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's good. You said about that. Because yeah, one of the things I like to mention is that it's, it is important for children to say, what their mums and dads are doing. I didn't matter what didn't actually mean to ask this, I was about to say something different. But as you mentioned before the girls like see their dad on the telly like, that's just like, did they? Did they make the connection? Do they like this? Yeah, yeah. I mean, probably assisted by the fact that like, hey, look, this study the girls, this is something I think all kids love music and dancing and our all of our kids do, but especially the girls are so absorbed in music and dance. And I mean, maybe some of those genetic I found with Queens, one of the only ways especially when they're early, you know, when they're lying on their little playing mat. That was one thing to keep them both entertained at once, which wasn't holding both of them at once was to lay them on the floor. And I'd put Wiggles, you know, playlists on and dance around like a little crazy person, you know, crazy person and try and sing not as well as their dad. And they would kick their little legs and you know, smile and giggle and that, you know, they obviously had exposure really, really early on to that. And still those particular wiggles that I've obviously drummed into them are their favorites. I you know, I love that they, I love so much, you know, we at 410 Every day we put you know, ABC Kids on and that's when we will design that's our little 10 minutes of you know, TV. They start dancing around and you know, Emma twirls around and they're, they're twirling around and they're trying to actually trying to do a sign language. It's amazing what young babies are picking up because there's me involved like, yeah, it's how they are learning because their music and dance involved. It's so innate. Yeah, I think it's really lovely. Obviously, Daddy's out there too. And that's pretty special. And yeah. We're taking them to the wiggles concert next week. And by we, I mean me. And I can't wait. Because even when they were five months old, I think, you know, I was on the sides with the girls. And my mom and Lulu especially was transfixed, and you know, five months old for 45 minutes. Oh, yeah, totally transfixed. And I think the power of music and dance is so, so beautiful. And I'm so glad they're growing up. So, so all amongst it. Yeah, it is beautiful, isn't it, it's like, like you're saying before, it might not be the, you know, going to soccer every week or the, you know, whatever it might be. But it's you're giving the children such an incredible life, just this exposure to things that other children might not get. And it's just, it's so awesome. It is. And it's challenging, obviously, and logistically, it's a jigsaw puzzle, turn it upside down and back to front and try put it back together again, every day is like that we have so many moving parts of our lives function. were two of us trying to tune out as well. It's just pretty, pretty full on and we're desperate school and trying to keep that consistent. And but it but it is it's it's it's good. I think I always try to remember to this is such a short amount of time. Yet ultimately, it's the best time for it to be like this. Yeah. Jess was starting us kit this year. And he'll he'll he'll do that, you know, he'll do that in years to come. He'll have enough soccer on Saturdays and he will get to your swimming lessons. But this is a unique time where I'm able to still do this. I can't do this again in 10 years time, being the level I'm at and want to be in 10 years time. So I might say you can but I'm, you know, I'm more than every day. I'm aware of that. You know, I do I have the best job in the world. And I get to go on stage and be different people and have world class orchestras playing music for me and do something I felt mostly quite natural doing my whole life. You know, it's it's hard to say no to that. And yes, hopefully my children can benefit from that too. Yeah, absolutely. I've got a wrench and the there was a beautiful article. Sydney Morning Herald where they took all these amazing photos of your family dressed up, and there's this one photo. I think it's Lulu. Like you've got this beautiful dress on and you're holding it and she's like, whatever like her facial expression. It's like, Oh, come on. I just every time I look at that, I just think she's in this world she gets, she knows what's going on. And she's like, Yeah, I'm in front of the camera again. With that particular photo, I know you're talking about it was one of her actually smiling. Yeah, they didn't using it. So when I saw that particular shot, when she's looking at, yeah, like, whatever. I thought it's a bit of a shame. But for whatever reason, maybe my leg looked better. Or, you know, the dress looks, you know, had a bit more flow or something. But I yeah, I did think that oh, interestingly enough, she's the one who loves her dress, and you put it on and she doesn't actually turned around. I just find those things. So interesting. Yeah. I don't know what Mommy does. Really. They don't. They haven't been able to come in most of my friends here at work. haven't even met the girls because of COVID. And, yeah, we're still very careful here, obviously. So those sorts of things aren't allowed. But yeah, they actually only know dancing through what they know themselves and through Wiggles. Um, but it's I love watching them just like, you know, dance along. Yeah, yeah. No, I just love I had to mention that. It's really funny. She's, she's really theatrical one. Currently in our Melbourne season of Anna Karenina, which was meant to be in the 2020 season, but has been postponed several years. So it's so lovely to have been able to get the this ballet on here. It actually made it to Adelaide last year and a little sneaky little week. It's a big, bold, intense drama. So beautiful, amazing costumes, scenery, a real modern day story of such a classic novel, obviously. So we're performing out here now. And we move that to Sydney, in April. Yeah, for three weeks. And we open also in Sydney in May a massive production called Kunstkammer, which is a whole huge evening of work. It's an amazing show from Netherlands dance theater and dt, which is the premier absolute, contemporary dance creative Maverick company from the last 60 something years. So this concept of Karma is a collection of incredible, four different choreographers who came together to create this incredible work, and there's so much in it. So it's a big undertaking for the company, but an absolute gift for us. No one else in the world has performed this ballet. So to have this in Australia is like having, you know, the rarest gem. So we're currently working on that at the moment, which is really exciting. You know, the some of the choreographers, I never thought I would ever be in the same room as them. Last year when we started workshopping and are just learning the early bits and I thought this is already enough like day one I've seen in the room with Paul Lightfoot. I never thought that would happen. This is unbelievable. So that's so exciting. We're doing that in Sydney in May. We bring that to Melbourne in June. So Melbourne gets to see that too. And then we open a ballet called Harlequinade here, which is a great commedia dell'arte, ballet, slapstick kind of comedy, but really clever, lots of dancing. Really funny, a real family sort of fun piece, which I'm really excited about. It's the sort of dancing that I get really excited by it's virtuoso, kind of pumping and turning and lots of fast movement but also lots of comedic timing and storytelling, which you know, I think is challenging but so, so rewarding. And then we have to finish off the first half the year we have our Adelaide season actually of counterpoint which is double bill, a double bill of Raymonda and which is a classical to to act. And then I got, I got artifacts, we really emphasize artifact suite, which is kind of like, again, a ballet that you know, the Eastern invite to have in their repertoire is a real coup. Yeah, that pushes dancers to like next level. So a whole lot of work. So, so you are performing something but then learning something else at the same time. Like you're doing different man that must does that screw with your head a bit, though, that you're like, which character am I today? That if you're doing the same dance, but several roles in the same dance that is quite tricky for the brain. Yeah, but I find the role is in the music. So whatever musics on it just getting to Yeah, we only did we did two versions of Swan Lake back to back. And that was a bit like, Oh, which one are we in? This one was modern was restoration, or, Oh, it's kind of similar, but not quite hit it in a music. But again, that's a skill that you kind of have to pick up along the way. And that's the challenge as well. But yeah, it's that's the sort of thing that I think people don't realize they do. Yeah, I never realized that till you just said that then, because I think musically, we're certainly my experience, you've got a show coming up. So you work on all this stuff for that show, then that show finishes, then you start for your next thing. But your world is just constantly constantly going, revolving door. And the different dance styles really challenge your body in different ways. And it's often when you start a new dance style, like as in a new piece of repertoire, it often you get quite sore or a bit, you know, using different muscles to do what you have been doing, and it feels a bit not quite the same as last night, and you're all caught up to my coin. How do I do that today? It is a constant challenge in that respect. But also it's the richness of the work we get to perform in the company here is that it's so diverse. And we actually are all very versatile dancers and very capable of that. So yeah, yeah, there was always lots to look forward to. And that's why you know, if you're not in a season this season heavily, you're there's something coming up always to think about. So we're very lucky. It's like a feast for us here. Everyone's very jealous overseas, how many shows we do? Talking about the kids like the dancing, I've worked in childcare, that's my day job. And I've certainly had a lot of wiggles over the years. But like it, they will that's what they want to hear the kids like, oh, we have this computer that we set up the music and and we have different music for sleep time. And anytime anyone walks over there we go squiggles or we will lose or they'll just they'll just start doing actions and they just love it. And same, like you said about the sign language. Like it's just becoming more mainstream a part of culture. Because of that, that, you know, the AMA, and it's like, it's just wonderful. It's, there's so there's so much like education value in what they're doing. It's not like, you know, they're not just a bunch of people to stenciling and having a party. It's like, they're actually educating and it's our like, my eldest son, he grew up with the originals. And then it was lovely to meet everyone in a different way. And some new faces when I had Digby, he's, he's six. So yeah, the year is and it's just a wonderful thing that it's still going and they've got the new faces now and it's just it's a wonderful part of our culture, I think. Yeah, yeah. It's, um, it's a it's a pretty special experience to be able to, you know, share that with children. And I do think, like I said, Before, they children just learn so innately through through music and dance without even knowing they are. And I think that probably goes across the ages and that goes into, you know, children who are well about, you know, three, four or five years old who love all those sorts of songs and things and so much scope for for learning with music and dance and how that can help all kids and all sorts of education kind of settings. With a ballet you know, we have storytime ballet which is, you know, the ballet for kids and Jasper seen those shows and a lot of kids come to those shows and you know, that is also what sparks a lot of children's in imaginations and a lot of what becomes the future generation of ballet dancers here and overseas, because they started at that first storytime, ballet performance, you know, that their mom or their grandma or someone took them to when they were three, four or five, six? Yes, spark something of that experience that took them somewhere. And then that takes them on their life to, you know, what they might like to become? And I'm sure that's how it happened with me like I just How can you not get take with that whole experience? And I think, you know, with ballet and music you that's pretty special to have that spark at such a young age and to play a part in that little person. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. That's it. That's a beautiful note to end on. I think. Thank you so much, Donna, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on. Thank you for giving me so much time and, and chatting. So candidly, I've really, really enjoyed it. I have to thank you for giving me the space to you know, just like I said, I hope I can always help. The only reason I'd ever share anything about what I'm doing in my life or at home is that I can help someone else. And it's really lovely that ballet dancers now have the choice to become mums. And that, you know, we're working through this space of working out how they kind of feed and inspire each other. So thank you for giving me the space. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum

Alisha Burns Australian podcaster + author S3 Ep82 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Alisha Burns, a podcaster and author based in Melbourne Australia, and a solo mum by choice (SMBC) to her daughter Lexi. Alisha was born in New Zealand and moved to Australia 8 years ago. After getting married, going through a stressful IVF journey, and then experiencing a pregnancy loss, Alisha's marriage broke down. She spent the next 6 years searching for 'Mr Right,' on all the dating apps, even moving countries. It was during a time of great loss for her family that Alisha made the realisation that what she was looking for wasn't actually a husband, it was to become a mother. Alisha then began the journey of having her own daughter Lexi using a donor. After appearing as a guest on another podcast for SMBCs, Alisha became inspired to not only share her own story, but of those who had also experienced this journey, and also to make available resources and information for those thinking of taking this path. Thus began the No Need for Prince Charming podcast and online communty. Alisha is also an author, with her book My Perfect Family available now . Her book aims to normalise the language around families, that all kinds of families are perfect, no matter how they are made up, and that all children are really just the same. **This episode contains mentions of IVF and pregnancy loss** Connect with Alisha - podcast instagram / podcast website / listen to podcast Her book instagram / book website Podcast - instagram / website Alisha would like to offer a special for podcast listeners - 15% off her book. Use the code ART15 at checkout before the end of February 2023 If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone dig people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Thank you so much for joining me today on another episode of The Art of Being a mum podcast. It is a pleasure to have you here, wherever you are all around the world. As I record, this is the final week of school holidays here in South Australia. We've had six weeks and I'm ready to go back to work and my kids are ready to go back to school and I think most of you, if not all of you in South Australia or Australia, probably feeling the same way. It's been a long six weeks. My guest this week on the podcast is Alicia burns. Alicia is a podcaster and author based in Melbourne, Australia, and she's a soccer mom by choice to her daughter Lexi. Alicia was born in New Zealand, but she moved to Australia eight years ago. After getting married, going through a stressful IVF journey and then experiencing a pregnancy loss. Alicia his marriage broke down. She spent the next six years searching for Mr. hight on all the dating apps, and even moving countries. It was during a time of great loss for her family that Alicia made the realization that what she was looking for wasn't actually a husband, it was to become a mother. Alicia then began the journey of having her own daughter, Lexi using a diner. After appearing as a guest on another podcast for solo mums. By choice, Alicia became inspired to not only share her own story, but of those who had also experienced this journey, and also to make available resources and information for those thinking of taking on this path. Thus began the no need for Prince Charming podcast and online community. Alicia is also an author, with her book, my perfect family available now. Her book aims to normalize the language around families, that all kinds of families are perfect, no matter how they are made up, and that all children are really just the same. This episode contains mentions of IVF and pregnancy loss. I hope you enjoy today's chat. Thank you so much for coming on, Alicia. It's an absolute pleasure to have you welcome. Thank you so much for having me today. Yeah, it's my pleasure. So we're about to you can detect your necks in you in Australia or New Zealand. I'm in Australia. I'm in Port Melbourne. I've been here coming up eight years. So they're still I think it's ease I can't say properly apparently. But a lot of the time people don't pick it. I haven't read anything for accents. I really love imitating and doing accent. So it's like, I'm really like listening to how people talk and how they shape their mouth when they talk. So yeah, don't take it personally. It's not a while I still pretend that most people can't tell. I'll go with that. Yeah, cool. Idea. So whereabouts were you born? Or where did you grow up? So I grew up in Wellington and I moved over here when I was 35. But yeah, I spent most of my life in Wellington City for a little stint in Palmerston North when I went to uni, and that was it. In other words, yeah, Wellington for most of my life. Yeah, you are a podcaster can you share with us what, what your podcast is about and how it all came about? So my podcast is interviewing Australian women who have decided to take motherhood into their own hands by having child using donor conception. So it's called no need for Prince Charming and basically Plan A didn't work out or maybe that wasn't even your plan or you just didn't want to partner and you've gone on to to have a child alone. It was inspired because that's the journey that I've been having to take. It's been a long road to get to that point but at 30 I decided to have a child on my own because Plan A wasn't working out, though this will hopefully help inspire and empower other women who are considering this journey, because it's something I wish I had when I was going through. Yeah, it's I mean, it's certainly a lot more common than I think people realize. It's, I mean, personally, I've known I mean, I, my, my town's only got a 30,000 people. And I know two people, like friends of mine, that that have taken that journey. And I'm sure there's so many more, but we just don't hear about it. So yeah, like having having the podcast. In the end, you're very active on your Instagram, sharing the stories and sharing experiences. And I think that's really important. I think going into it, I knew one person that I worked with who had done it, but I didn't really know her to have a proper open conversation about it. And I had a different perception in my mind about who does this sort of journey. So I was very big on joining the Instagram community and finding a lot of other like minded women. And then once I start the podcast, I'm just blown away by the variety of people, and the variety of ways and stories that they've had to go through it. But at the end of the day, they all tend to be very strong, very determined woman. So I'm building an amazing village of incredible woman surrounded with which is fantastic. The reasons that that mothers decide to do this, what sort of reasons are they very varied reasons paths are for for quite a few. It's just, they've tried the internet dated, they've been married, they've had relationship failures, whatever else. And they just get to the point where they just haven't found the right partner to have a child with. And for me, personally, I am divorced, I went through a pretty, pretty rough time and went through three years of infertility, a lot of IVF and ended up unfortunately, my son was stillborn. And after that my marriage didn't survive. And what was it? Six years later, I still hadn't met anyone. I even tried moving countries to see if I could find my elusive Prince Charming. I've done all the dating sites, I've done everything, but just nothing close to a relationship. So the day my dad died was actually the day I decided to do this. I thought what was most important to me was finding a partner. But actually what was most important was having a mother. And I'm glad that it happened when it did. Otherwise, it could have been too late. And yeah, and now I have my beautiful little Alexandra and having a partner is probably the last thing on my mind. At the moment. I don't know how he'd fit in, to be honest. But my life is so full, and I feel so content and just feel how I was always meant to be. So if anyone else is in the same situation where motherhood is the most important thing to them, rather than compromise or do something slightly dodgy, like doing a one night stand or something. There are other options nowadays, and it is a lot easier than it used to be. Yeah. on that. Are there particular sort of rules in different states in Australia, about accessing the treatment or the procedures to get pregnant by yourself? Yeah, so all states are different. Of course, there was one thing that really surprised me about Australia. And so I'm in Victoria, which is one of the most regulated in Australia, you basically can only use clinic referral recruited sperm. So every donor will be based in Victoria themselves, they asked darling to tweak the rules a little bit that they might be able to do overseas sperm, but it does mean that each individual clinic has to recruit its own donors. And it can be quite hard for them to do that. So you might have, especially after the pandemic, people are finding very hard to get access to sperm. So whereas I had a choice of, I think, 30, and 14 of which were Caucasian, and I wanted my daughter to look like me, so I wanted a Caucasian donor. So I could have like a fun party with my girlfriends and have champagne and, you know, made sperm cookies and sperm, bruschetta, toasts, and we, we went through all the profiles and, and worked out which one we want to cut out heads for magazines, and we gave them names, you know, made a really big deal about it to try and make it really fun. Women going through it today might have a choice of two, if they're lucky. So it's a little bit different. So any men if you're listening, and you would consider being a donor, please go and contact a clinic. And there's a definite need for it. Now, there are quite a few rules in regards to how many families can be created from a donor as well. So you would have probably potentially seen a lot of media, especially coming out of the states, where you know, there's donors that I've got hundreds and hundreds of children all around the world. In Victoria you can only give to 10 families so potentially there are nine other families that my daughter has half siblings created. and they can have unlimited children in their family, but it's only 10 families total. Yeah, there are other ways, I suppose that you could go down this path using a known donor, or there are some that aren't clinic recruited, that are doing through websites and that sort of thing. And just have to be very careful, if you are going to go down that route is just there are a lot of legal potential implications and other things that could come about. So the safest way is to go either with someone that you know, and get the proper legal documentation, or to do it through a clinic. So also in Victoria, there's a governing body, I guess you call it called Vatta. And they look after managing all of the donor donors and donor recipients. And then in the future, if my child wants to make contact with her donor, they'll help manage that for us, because you can't actually be an anonymous donor anymore. So you have to be what's called an ID release. So when the child turns 18, they can get access to contact you. I was actually going to ask about that, like, what's the ramifications down the track if if a child decides they'd like to meet their, their biological father? Yeah, right, it's really interesting with that are as well, they do counseling and things before you make the donor. So they help facilitate their contact in the first place. And then you do counseling for yourself, your child and the donor before those meetings happen as well. So everyone's going into it in the best frame of mind to get the most out of it. A lot of donors will say that they are open to contact before the child is 18 as well, if the child wishes that. So that's something you can push through again through Varta. And I think all states are different. But I think Victoria is the best for that sort of support, which is great for us because we live here. Yeah, absolutely. And is there also screening or testing to make sure there's no genetic abnormalities or illnesses or Yeah, so it's actually quite a process. If you're going through a clinic recruited donor, I think they have to have they do a lot of blood test, and they do a donation, and then they have to wait six months, and they do another donation and do more health checks, just to make sure nothing's changed in that time. And when you get the donor paperwork, when you're selecting which one you want, it's got the full family history in that as well. So if they had some sort of, they're a carrier for some sort of, say chromosomal issue, potentially, they wouldn't be allowed to be a donor, or it will be clearly displayed on the billing profile, so you knew what you're getting into. But you can see you know, that your grandmother, the grandmother had cancer, or their father died of a heart attack, all of that sort of thing. So you've got the full medical history, if you're going clinic recruited, that you can see exactly what you're getting yourself into, because some people might have in their family a high chance of cancer. So they might want to avoid a donor that's got that as well to try and minimize and passing things on. So you get a lot of information if you do the clinic, recruited path. Yeah. Just another question. I'm finding this really interesting. When when you get that the little book to look through to see who you're choosing from, do they give you information on what they're like, personally, like, their traits and stuff like that? Like how much information do you receive about the donor, the mind is going back, what, three, four years now. And things have changed a little bit. But I got you get a list of the profiles was very simple information, like the age height, not the age, just the height, hair color, eye color, nationality, I think. And then from that list, you would narrow it down to the ones you want to get full profiles for the full profiles, then give the demographic demographic information for the parents as well. So you can see so I could sit there and do like my fifth form biology and I've got brown eyes, my dad had blue, there's a chance that you know, and hit his mother had green so and it worked out because she got Hazel, so bad, but you can do that sort of thing better than it also they answer some questions. And then it's up to the donor, really how much information they put in there. Some are very short answers. Some are very long, but it can give you a bit of an indication about their personality, my donor, specifically when I read his profile as that I know, I feel like I know if I met you in real life, we'd get on really well. We had very similar values. He was all about family and animals. And just the way he'd written his answers. I could have written that myself. So yeah, and there's there's a wide variety there's, you know, highly educated there are some concrete workers there's there's everything. So there should be someone for for everyone, because everyone has different tastes and what they're looking for. But you do get quite a bit of information. And since I, what had my success well, for my daughter, though, they have changed things and they have a new sort of donor Bank, which they call Adam, I went through City Fertility and that's that's who they use. And when I rang up because you can ring and find out if there are any siblings, you can't get much information, you can just know that there's one or not. And they had more information from him, including toddler photos. So I now have title photos of my daughter's donor, which is really interesting because I always thought she was identical to my dad. Yeah. And then I saw the donor photo and it's like yeah, so some some clinics give you a lot of information. I think if you're in other states, but particularly in Western Australia, they use more American sperm banks and you get a lot of information. Some people even get recordings so they can hear the voice of the donor. So there is quite a bit that you get. But it's not quite like the movies where you've looking through the books. Oh, that's so interesting. Thank you for sharing that. So I want to go back a bit to obviously you went through the journey, and you were compelled to share it. Why did you choose podcasting? Like, are you do you have a background in like, writing? Or have you done anything like this before? Or? Not really? No, I was actually asked to be a guest on a podcast, a girl in America who runs a similar podcast called The single greatest choice. And I did the first half of my episode, the day before I got induced, know, the day I got induced, I think, Oh, yeah. And then six months later, I did the follow up to and so from that, then I sort of started listening to them. I hadn't really listened to podcasts a lot. Before that, I used to listen to kind of self help motivational ones, maybe on my walk to work, but nothing specifically to pregnancy, or solely mom by choice. And then it just got me thinking, and I think I had her in the beginning of the pandemic. So I first year maternity leave was basically the two of us at home, and couldn't leave the house more than an hour a day. Yeah. And I didn't realize how much I would love being a mum, and how much I became myself as a result. And it just made me really want to help other women make that choice as well. The amount of women that I met who are a bit older than me, will I wish that had been an option or that I'd gone down that path. I didn't want other people to be in that situation. So I thought this is a resource that I could help create. And what was most important was that there was an Australian voice for it, because there were many podcasts around the world, but not specifically with an Australian voice. And of course, every state is different, what you go through, and just want to provide a variety of stories, but also give people hope. I have some people who got pregnant they first IUI I have people who've had to go to South Africa to get egg donors as well. You know, there's a wide variety. So no matter where you are on your journey, or what you're contemplating, hopefully you can find a story relate to. And that's fantastic. I think that's wonderful. On to the more about your podcasting, how did you find setting it up and getting into a week? Are you the sort of person that I was talking to someone else the other day about when they started their podcast, and we're comparing our styles? Do you need to have everything like organized ready to go before you do it? Or are you the sort of person that just does it, and then sort of works things out? As it comes up as you're going? I think I watched quite a few YouTube videos that I found. I didn't even know how to do the RSS feed or how it even got on to Spotify. So I just did a bit of Googling and research and I'd work that much out and was like, okay, so I need to get a website where I can do this all and then I need to find some guests and how am I going to record it. So just Googling again, I found some great YouTube content and just watch that and my garage band. Sure. That's already on my computer can't be that hard. Need a microphone. Okay, buy a microphone. And then I just put the call out on Instagram and just said, you know, if I was to do this, would anyone volunteer and immediately I had I think 15 woman go yes. It was like, Okay, I've got the bass, I can do this. And it's just, I just backed myself and the first one probably took the longest to record because that was my story. Yeah, yeah. You're always so critical of yourself and what you sound like and everything else. And I think honestly, one of the biggest surprises is people keep commenting on how nice my voices never had that my whole life. Like I could listen to you for hours. You're so relaxing. I'm like, Am I okay? My dad always told me off for talking too fast. So maybe maybe I've grown up with a microphone in front of me. I don't know. But yeah, it's and then yeah, I just I just winged it. I don't get it. A lot of it. I have basically the same format for all and it seems to work. I have some feedback along the way which I've tried to incorporate so making it less about pregnancy and more about the conception and then life. So yeah, same kind of format everyone kind of know As what's coming if they've listened to an episode? Yep. And just whatever they're talking about, I guess which is probably the same for you. Yes. Very similar. Yeah, I find it's good. I like to have the the rough idea of the way I do each episode. Same thing people know what's coming, but then yeah, wherever it goes, it goes and I like that because I think people will talk about what they need to talk about. And same thing I don't eat it too much for takeout in my library and you stumble over my words, so do be careful you, daughter, how old is it? You call it Alexei? I've noticed on your Lexie on your Instagram and she calls herself Alexandra though so she will be she was Alex to start with but she was had no here for so long. Even though she was wearing a lot of pink. Everyone thought she was a boy. So my favorite Grey's Anatomy character. Or I loved I was actually watching that this morning. I've been rewatching it rewatching all the rewatching it for like the fifth time. Yeah. That's easy background noise when you're doing other things. You know what's coming? So yeah, that's thing you you miss a little bit. You've you've sort of know where they're going to be at when you come back to it. They're not going to do anything radically different. I'm actually I'm up to the what I don't even know what season it is now lose track. But Christine has just like quit. And so Derek's taking her fishing, and it's like this. It's just hilarious. So anyway, so far, I'm at the point where Christina and Burke are just about to get married. So ah, yeah, that that's that's that's a long time back. Yes. But now it's it's really I love that show. I never used to love it. I thought I'd watched it because everyone else was watching it. And I was like, oh, what's the so I'm gonna watch it. And then I sort of got off of it. But now it's up and you can watch everything on streaming and just sit there and watch it all day long. And Shonda Rhimes is another Solomon by choice. Oh, there you go. He's up via adoption. But yes, she has three kids by herself. Yeah. So there are a lot of inspiring, very successful woman who have gone down this path as well, which I think that's an interesting lessons just on it, Natalie. Yeah, baby guy. And I think that, can that be? I don't know, I was gonna say it can be inspiring, but it's at the same time. Could that make? I don't want to say normal people, because we're all normal in some, you know what I mean, but non celebrities who have access to buckets of money, you know, you might think, well, they're doing it because they've got a nanny or, you know, that sort of thing. Like, so I guess it could go either way. Couldn't? Yeah, I made a real a long time ago, which had a lot of different celebrities that most people weren't even aware of had done it by themselves. Yeah. And I think it's just if you see a powerful, successful woman, and she has been able to have do it as well, because of my Hollywood romances don't seem to last very long do they? But there are other options. And if they can do it, why can we? Yeah, no, I think that's that's fantastic. So How old's your daughter now? She will be three at the end of April. And times three year old? Oh, yes. I've been seeing your journey with a giving up the debris. That's fine. It has gone surprisingly well. Very glad. But now we're battling. I don't want to go to bed. And now she's climbing out of a cot. And yeah, I was at 1030 last night, and I thought was 10. And in my bed, which I'm not overly keen on. But it also means that I'm not getting any time for me, which I struggle with a bit mentally because that's, that's when I have my creative time and go after all my passion projects that I'm doing. So you know what it's like with a two and a half year old, if you're in the room, they need to be doing whatever you're doing. So you can't do anything for yourselves. Yeah, I had some really good routines previously. Yeah. Yeah. They like to throw spanners in the works, right. So I'm about to start recording the next season is like, how am I going to fit this in? If you're not going to sleep? I don't want to just stick you in front of an iPad or night. It's not the best habit. So hopefully, we can get that sorted in the next couple of weeks. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was gonna ask like, how what? When do you fit in doing the things that you'd like to do? So when, when she's in bed, you just go to go to work? So I get up at five in the morning now. Oh, wow. So I have to read two to two and a half hours to myself in the morning and most of that the last year has been spent on the podcast or my book. But this year, I need to start prioritizing my health so I'm going to try my gets on doing some exercise in that time as well before I move on to the passion project, so yeah. And then I used to be able to do it when she went to bed at seven. And that gave me a few hours at night as well. But yeah, that's not going to work if she goes to bed at 10, so I can get that fixed soon. So your book, I'm guessing that's about your journey and your experiences? No, no, tell me what it is. It's actually an illustrated children's book. And it's trying to bring awareness and normalities and language associated with donor conception. So it's showing that that all families are beautiful and perfect, no matter how they're made, and that all kids are just the same as everyone else. So there is 12 families in it. And I've got everything, same six families, divorced families, widower, and solid mom by choice and just normalizing the language. So you know, if the same sex family they had their child as a result of a surrogate or it's written better than that, but and then with me, it's with the help of a donor. So just normalizing that language that ideally, kids will get to the stage where they say, oh, Lexi doesn't have a dad, she has a donor and not think anything more of it, and possibly comments and just completely normalized. So yeah, I'm just waiting for my first print run to arrive. Really excited. Oh, congratulations. That's so exciting. So did you did you illustrate as well, you knew, you. Give me another surprise. That was probably the hardest part out of all of it. So when you asked him before how I went about doing the podcast, this was something I've had ideas about writing books for, oh, my God, I don't know how long I've started my memoir, probably about 50 times, and never done it. But then I had the idea of doing a children's book. And then this idea kind of came to me that there's nothing really in the market that normalizes that language. I think my target market is, shall we call air quotes, normal, traditional families. So then if they've got, you know, little Sammy comes to school, and he's got two dads, how do I explain that to my child? Here's a book that just shows you all that. And it makes it really normal and really fun. So a woman that I'd met through Instagram had published some donor conception books, which are more targeted to couples who've had us donate eggs, or sperm, or I've done it by themselves and and talks more for the child about how they were conceived. And I didn't want to do another book like that, because there are a few out there. But I had a really good conversation with her to understand exactly what she went through. And then I got over that whole paralysis of how, and they had a clear plan. Okay, this is what I need to do to get it. The words were probably the easy part was finding an illustrator, that was the hardest. Yeah. And I went through a few through on Fiverr, and everything else, and I ended up putting a call out on LinkedIn and Instagram to see if anyone knew anyone. And then I got recommended my my beautiful illustrator through that. She's got a friend that's actually solid mom by choice, it was following me. And so then I got in contact with her and Oh, my God, I loved the process, like both here and I miss it. Because like, every day, she'd be drawing different pictures. And we'd be having calls on it and going, Oh, what about doing this and these changes and tweaks and, and she learned a lot on the process as well. She's comes from a very traditional family construct her husband's a detective, she's got three kids, she lives in a small town, Victoria, you know, very different from the world that she was, she was illustrating. But she managed to take the pictures out of my head onto paper. And I just love the result. And the collaboration that we did to do it as well was just a really beautiful process. So fantastic. So what did you call the book? My perfect family? Yeah, right. I love that. So when will people be able to get their hands on it? So pre orders are open now. And I'm just waiting for the first print run to arrive. And so yeah, you can order it now. And by the time this podcast comes out, I'm sure it'll be in my hot little hands. And I'll be sending it out and spending my nights fighting a toddler to package up books, but you know, that's okay. Oh, fantastic. So you've got a website? What's your website called? It's my perfect family. book.com beautiful. All right, I'll put a hyperlink in the show notes for people to click away on. Oh, well download. It's fantastic. I work in early childhood education. So I've worked in childcare, long daycare setting for nine years and now working kindergartens. And I'm really amazed by I want to say the quality of children's books and then the knock quality of children's books. There are some really really poorly written books and I think how the heavens did this ever get printed, like how did this get past the checking of what's appropriate? You know, and then there are some lovely books but I've never seen a book that is doing what you're doing so well done. I'm really excited on the graphic Copy. Yeah, I think there's some beautiful books out there that show different families. But they don't talk about how they made. Yes, yes. Hopefully just solve that little gap as well. And I'd love to get it into daycares and schools. And yeah, like I say, I think their target audience is actually more traditional families so that they can help explain to their children, that families made all sorts of different ways. But every family is perfect, no matter how they're made. So yeah, absolutely. And I've spoken a bit lately to particular people about getting children involved in social issues, and from a young ages possible, because when they get to a certain point, they're really led by what adults, what sort of beliefs that they hold, so then they put them on their children, they change, you know, the innocence of that what that child held before that point. So I really think it's yeah, this will be really, really helpful for adults too, because it can be a little bit confronting and confusing to know how to refer to people and how they like to be referred to, I think it's the whole thing of my daughter doesn't have a father, she doesn't have a dad. It's not that there, he lives in a different house, or overstays, although I don't know who he is, is that she doesn't actually have one, she has a donor. So the more we can normalize that language, and that kids just say she doesn't have one share the donor. And there's, there's an acceptable alternative that they can put in there instead of dad, then hopefully, that will help build acceptance out of everyone. So like you said earlier, you can get that information into kids, the better. Yeah, and then be like, Oh, they've got donor, oh, well, this, this family's got two mums, or they had to use a donor as well. Okay. Donors are useful for lots of people. Yeah. And it just becomes that's just the normal way of speaking. It's not, Oh, don't say that. Or do you know, like this dad, and I think it when I was growing up, yeah, growing up in such inclusive times anyway, then it's not going to be like, what it would have been for us in the 90s. You know, if someone didn't have a dad, it would have been very strange. And now we'll just be like, I have one. And yeah, it's really great time to be embarking on this, because there's so many different families. And I feel that they are all really accepted no matter how much how they constructed. Yes, great. No, I love it. And I put on Yum, that's fantastic. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. Now, I want to talk about your identity before you became a mom. So you mentioned before, it was really a really positive thing that becoming a mum allowed you to be become who you are sort of thing. How was that experience for you? It really, really positive, positive thing really? Yeah. So I think when I look back on it, as long as I can remember, all I wanted to do and all that determines success was for me was to get married and have children. I don't know where that's come from. If that was just, you know, I grew up in the 90s. And watching Beverly Hills nine to one, I don't know. But as long as I can remember, the most important thing was to find that husband. So I found a husband, and got married, when he eight turns out he wasn't the best husband for me. And I probably just settled because I wanted to tick those boxes, and have the husband had the white picket fence, everything. I also wanted the career. And that was kind of what defined me. So once I lost the husband and the big house, and the only thing that was left was my career. So I started focusing really strongly on that, and doing everything possible, and usually not in the best ways to find the new man and the husband. Number two, I was convinced. So New Zealand, you have to be separated two years before you can get divorced, I was convinced I would be engaged by the time, you know that I was divorced. And I think so much of my self worth and everything else was determined by whether I had a partner or not. Which is, in hindsight, very sad. But I haven't got to the point, I moved to Australia, and I contemplated freezing my eggs, but I thought no, what's more important is that I find that other person to share my life with and if it's meant to be a workout. And that was I think just probably bearing down the trauma of having to go through infertility for so many years. And Lester Watson and the rest of that. When I made this decision that night when I when I got pregnant, I had quite a bit of anxiety throughout the pregnancy after obviously, pregnancy after loss. But once I could start feeling her move and that sort of thing. I relaxed a bit more into it and I just I just had this overwhelming feeling that it was going to work out. And I just had faith from that one that I was going to and then went to it was just me and her. So like I said it was full pandemic. I think my last seven weeks of work. I was at home and then my neighbor dropped me at the hospital. So I could have stayed in the hospital for five nights came home. And then it was basically just us for the first six months. And it was just a beautiful little bubble, I didn't have to worry about work, I didn't have to worry about proving myself to anyone, I couldn't have visitors. So my house ended up being the tightest it's ever been. But you know, it wasn't that pressure because people were here or just because I had nothing else to do. They were so relaxed, she was a great sleeper. And either and I don't know, I just I just felt so content in myself and my own little life. And I still feel that way. Now. I mean, it's a bit bit of a hustle at the moment, because I have a full time job, as well as all my side things. And her and I want her to experience as much as possible and do things that, you know, interests here. So we're doing swimming lessons, and dancing, and all of that stuff. So it's a pretty busy life. And the thing that's gone is my social life. Yeah. But I don't need that. Like I used to. I used to fixate on that being a definition of how popular or how like there was whatever else and it's like going out to a bar is the least interesting thing possible to me right now. I want to spend it with quality people and doing quality things. And ideally, that involves my daughter as well. So yeah, life has changed considerably. And then a element. Yeah. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. So sure, I keep looking at your cat sitting there. Teresa. What what breed is she is Burmese and she had her teeth done last week, so it's just a bit too late today. She hasn't been very quiet since normally. She just jumps up and down on my desk and cries the whole time. So yeah, at least quiet. But yeah, she's seen a lot of meetings, like Jilin like, oh, I used to have a bit of maize. And his name was Teddy. And he was because she's gorgeous. What's your name? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, he was he was a beautiful boy. But he, when he came, sort of matured, he started attacking my other cat that he had leaving with us and older cat. And we ended up having to find him a new home. But she had a lovely home as a single cat. He just wasn't the sort of cat that could live for you. That was she had a brother, who I lost last year, a year ago. And then I got the dog. And they were not happy about that. And the old cat that her brother used to beat up the dog when we lost Rodrigo. Now knocklyon Let me like cuddle up together and things and nothing they protecting each other from the toddler states. Oh, love it. topic that I really like to talk about with mums is the concept of mum guilt. And I'm wondering what you think about that, if you have any thoughts on that. It's interesting one, I don't feel like I have much mum guilt. But then I questioned whether I'm doing a good enough job quite a bit lately, as and I think maybe the mum, guilt will come more as she gets older. And I think if I do not have the downtime to be able to have time to myself and pursue my things, that really starts taking a toll on me. And unfortunately, that can come out on her as well. So you know, if she's not going to be detained 30 My Yeah, not my best morning, I have never felt guilty about going back to full time work. And my mum and dad both worked full time, what I am very conscious of is that I don't want her to see me working and prioritizing work over here. So going back to work, I've had very strong boundaries, and I've managed to stick to them. So previously, before her, I would be working sort of 60 to 80 hours a week, sometimes now, you don't get me out of nine to 530. That's it. And I think going back to work and working from home for most of it because of the pandemic did help make that transition a lot easier. And we have really strong routines that mean that we have some quality time in the morning and we have quality time when I pick her up at night as well. And we try to do the same sort of things. So don't think that daycare is actually the best thing for her as well like being with your little buddies and what she's learning in that social interaction. So I don't feel guilty about that. And I don't think I'd be a very good stay at home mom anyway. My dream would be that I don't have to work for someone else. And then my book and whatever else I pursue, can allow me to have sort of an income where I can be the more present especially when she goes to school and she has no shorter days. I would love to be able to drop her off and pick her up each day and take Get your whatever activity she's doing and be more involved in her life rather than leave that to someone else. But my mum actually moved over here when I had my daughter. Yeah, so she lives 10 minutes walk away. So if it's not me, it will be it will be grandma. So I'm very, very lucky for that. But yeah, ideal world, by the time she's at school, I'll be able to be even more involved. She definitely is the priority when I'm not at work. So you're trying to get that balance between working from home and work in the office makes a big difference, as well for trying to have that quality time at home to just focus and do work and do most of my meetings. They when I go to the office, it's just back to back meetings all day. But take all those things off so that my days at home, I can just focus and get work done. So again, and then trying to do so like do the washing during the day, that sort of thing. That's always waiting for a meeting. Yeah. So again, when it's my daughter and I, it's just quality time, it's not doing bullshit chores and that sort of stuff. I knew you wouldn't put on your truck, that monkey, I just had a feeling that that wouldn't be like feel like it. It's yeah, I think that's awesome. I love that I once had someone, give it to people on who didn't have it. And one of them had to google it, because they just didn't even know what it was. And I thought that is so awesome. That's what we all should be like? Well, I think most of it is sending them to daycare, isn't it, but I think that's the best thing for him. Honestly, I feel guilty about that. I never feel guilty for that. Because I've been like I've been in that industry. And it is wonderful that the children thrive, the social interaction, what they're learning, and just the stuff that they can do there that they could never do at home. You know, it's just when you pick them up, you get these lovely compliments, and it's like, well, I must be doing something. No. And then the thing the other thing is by working full time, it means that I can afford the lifestyle that I want to give so I'm not gonna feel guilty about that. Yeah, I would rather have that and then struggle and have to worry about you know, if I had enough food to feed or or pay the bills, I'd rather be able to, you know, go to Fiji. Yeah. Yes, that'd be excellent. Have you done much traveling? The two of you. We went to New Zealand at the end of last year. I'm gonna say that was a trip not a holiday. It was it was hard work. New Zealand is not a great place for toddlers. And I think we probably went too long. But it was really important for mum to go. And it helped her solidify that she had made the right decision. So that was good. And it was lovely for me to be able to introduce Lexi to my friends that you know, haven't seen in years. But know next time I want kids clubs so that I get a holiday to sound sounds perfect. And I'm actually going with another solo mom friend that I've met through Instagram. It's one of those people like she feels like your bestie but we've never actually met in real life, but her daughter's similar act. So I think we'll have a really great time together. Oh, lovely. That's exciting when you get when you're doing that in June, so I'm going for my birthday. Love anymore does it so and you'll be escaping the Melbourne weather in winter two, which we love with that's usually not too bad. By this ages. I've could have lifted longer to really escape but it no good on Yeah, you got to do these things. So do you find that? Um, no, I think people and even families with young kids, regardless of whether they're, there's one parent or two can be really reluctant to do things with young kids because they're put off you know, this is going to be hard or whatever. Like do you have any advice for for people listening that might feel like that? No, I'm already feeling like it's gonna be hard. I'm hoping this time though, she'll be a bit more open to just sitting with the iPad on the plane. But the first time it was like this is all new. I did have to make a big call on it though. Stupidly, if I went via Sydney it would save me $1,100 Oh, so I had to really wait out but that's a lot of money. Yeah, to a save it and take nine to 10 hours to get there and have to get through like Sydney Airport with a bag and potentially sleeping toddler because we were getting to Melbourne and live 11 o'clock at night or something or do I just pay the money? And it's like, no, I'm just gonna pay the money. It's just easier just to fly direct get here hopefully have lounge access if I can Wingull that. And then just like direct and be there not two flights, having run in between and all the rest of it because it's the time at the airport I found was probably the hardest. When we went to New Zealand was coming home she just knows time of day. So it's like if you can get an early flight I think that we're really helped us or when they're going to likely sleep. But yeah, there's just no easy way I think to travel with kids. So just suck it up and go, because it'll be amazing once you're there. Let's see theory. Don't let it stop you from doing it. Just do it. Yeah, and it depends on the kid to like, they're so different, like my two, I've got seven years difference between mighty. And one, you could do so many things within the other one you've just been, you'd just be a full believer and try certain things. Oops, you know, it's it's like, you just never know how things are gonna work out. And you just don't know how much they're gonna change. And that time as well. I mean, that's six months from now. Yeah, be like a little angel. That's the or she could be a complete terror that wants to run around the whole plane. I'm not sure. Let it put me off booking. So yeah, that's what you said a time. Yeah, no good on. Yeah, I think that's really good. Other things that I wanted to trips we want to take, but I just need to wait till she's older. Like I can't wait to take it to Disneyland. But there's no point doing that until probably about eight and actually appreciate it properly. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. So you talked before about the needing to do your passion projects like that as your outlet is that is that something that you really hold on to is as something that's really important to you and, and part of who you are? I think so I think previous to Lexie, it was my outlet was sewing in the did a lot of that. And when my first year maternity leave again, I still did a lot of sewing and I was making a lot of things for her. But now it's going to, I've got a why, since I've had her. It's I'm so passionate about creating these things. And actually having follow through as well. I think I've been someone who's always had a lot of ideas, but just not the courage to back myself to follow through with them. And I want her to see me as someone who does that, so that she can be encouraged that she has ideas, she can just go ahead and go after her dreams as well. And I think maybe it started with my dream was to become a mom and I had the follow through to have it on my own. So if I can do that, I can do anything. And I think getting really clear. So I did some some dream life work through an is Kiki K book or something and that I would love, I would love to not have to work for someone else. And so it's finding one of those things, and I guess getting over the imposter syndrome a lot of the time as well. To say, you know, I can be that person and I can do these things and that there is worth and what I'm doing and I think the podcast was the first start, the fact that I have people volunteering, I haven't really had to go out too hard or chase people down. And I've got enough to do the full season. And I've already got, you know, the first few months of next of this year, done, I just have to eat at them. Sure you put that off to like, I can do that. And that was successful. I just need to work out a way to monetize it. And it's like, now I've got an idea for a book. Why not? It's just understanding the how to do it. I'm getting the networks that will back what I do as well. And it's helping them help their kids. So yeah, yeah, good on. Yeah, I love that. It's very inspiring. It's awesome. Have you always felt like that throughout your life? Or is that something that's happened as you've gotten older, do you think? I think I've always had ideas, and I've always ideally would work for myself. But I've just never had the courage to do it. And I haven't I think I've been surrounded by the cheerleaders that I needed to do that. And now, I guess I've got the cheerleaders in the online community, but it's also I've become my own cheerleader with things. Yeah, but it's also who I've met, that can help and to actually ask for help. So you know, talking to Nat, who'd already published her book to understand how she did and I basically just completely copied exactly what she did. It's just with my illustrations and my words, but you know, the same size book so that I know that all fit into a certain size envelope, so that I can put it as a large envelope instead of having to pay package, you know, postage and all those sort of things. Yeah. Consider things when you can just learn from someone who's already done it. So yeah. And then doing a few kind of self development courses as well. Just to really get clear what my vision is. And what why I want the life that I do for Lexi and I and I think it's because I want it so much for her. Yeah, it just gives me that real drive to try and create it. I've got it really clearly in my head what it looks like and I can't wait to have that with her but it's gonna take some work so she needs to go to sleep that's a part in the plan because she all she has to do is go to sleep. Go to sleep and we're going to have an amazing yeah, yeah. I have funny. Oh, that's great. So obviously, in the future, you've, you've got the book coming out, which is so exciting. I'm really excited to get a copy of that, actually, and to take it to my work T. What can you share this coming up, I would love to actually write my memoir. Like I said, I've started about 50 times, I would think there'll be really, and I think the ending has changed so much, and what the focus would be has changed so much as well, that exists every, every year, it evolves a little bit more. And I think I'm probably getting to become one of the best versions of myself at the moment. So the journey of how I got to that, and maybe it's just part a, I don't know, but I'd love to do that. But again, that's going to take considerable amount of my child being asleep to write that. I've got other ideas about building a body more resources and community for other women embarking on this journey, and, and to help support them just to kind of have everything in one place, really. So if you're thinking about, you know, finding information needs, maybe some online courses and that sort of thing. But again, for that it's time and getting over impostor syndrome, I think is the biggest one for them. I've got the domain name and I've got the Instagram page. I just haven't done anything with it. It's got to coming soon. So yeah, right. It makes you do solo solo mum society. So Oh, I love it. I've got a cool name. Yeah, do something. Yeah, no good on. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. I really love chatting with you. And I've learned so much. And I'm sure a lot of my listeners have learned a lot to you. So thank you for sharing. So honestly, it's been great. Yeah, and all the best so I'm really excited for you. If you want to learn more, no need for Prince Charming is the podcast on my Instagram page. So I share probably way too much on that but good on. Yeah, that's awesome. Thanks again, if the music you heard featured on today's episode was from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.