Alisha Burns Australian podcaster + author S3 Ep82 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Alisha Burns, a podcaster and author based in Melbourne Australia, and a solo mum by choice (SMBC) to her daughter Lexi. Alisha was born in New Zealand and moved to Australia 8 years ago. After getting married, going through a stressful IVF journey, and then experiencing a pregnancy loss, Alisha's marriage broke down. She spent the next 6 years searching for 'Mr Right,' on all the dating apps, even moving countries. It was during a time of great loss for her family that Alisha made the realisation that what she was looking for wasn't actually a husband, it was to become a mother. Alisha then began the journey of having her own daughter Lexi using a donor. After appearing as a guest on another podcast for SMBCs, Alisha became inspired to not only share her own story, but of those who had also experienced this journey, and also to make available resources and information for those thinking of taking this path. Thus began the No Need for Prince Charming podcast and online communty. Alisha is also an author, with her book My Perfect Family available now . Her book aims to normalise the language around families, that all kinds of families are perfect, no matter how they are made up, and that all children are really just the same. **This episode contains mentions of IVF and pregnancy loss** Connect with Alisha - podcast instagram / podcast website / listen to podcast Her book instagram / book website Podcast - instagram / website Alisha would like to offer a special for podcast listeners - 15% off her book. Use the code ART15 at checkout before the end of February 2023 If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone dig people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Thank you so much for joining me today on another episode of The Art of Being a mum podcast. It is a pleasure to have you here, wherever you are all around the world. As I record, this is the final week of school holidays here in South Australia. We've had six weeks and I'm ready to go back to work and my kids are ready to go back to school and I think most of you, if not all of you in South Australia or Australia, probably feeling the same way. It's been a long six weeks. My guest this week on the podcast is Alicia burns. Alicia is a podcaster and author based in Melbourne, Australia, and she's a soccer mom by choice to her daughter Lexi. Alicia was born in New Zealand, but she moved to Australia eight years ago. After getting married, going through a stressful IVF journey and then experiencing a pregnancy loss. Alicia his marriage broke down. She spent the next six years searching for Mr. hight on all the dating apps, and even moving countries. It was during a time of great loss for her family that Alicia made the realization that what she was looking for wasn't actually a husband, it was to become a mother. Alicia then began the journey of having her own daughter, Lexi using a diner. After appearing as a guest on another podcast for solo mums. By choice, Alicia became inspired to not only share her own story, but of those who had also experienced this journey, and also to make available resources and information for those thinking of taking on this path. Thus began the no need for Prince Charming podcast and online community. Alicia is also an author, with her book, my perfect family available now. Her book aims to normalize the language around families, that all kinds of families are perfect, no matter how they are made up, and that all children are really just the same. This episode contains mentions of IVF and pregnancy loss. I hope you enjoy today's chat. Thank you so much for coming on, Alicia. It's an absolute pleasure to have you welcome. Thank you so much for having me today. Yeah, it's my pleasure. So we're about to you can detect your necks in you in Australia or New Zealand. I'm in Australia. I'm in Port Melbourne. I've been here coming up eight years. So they're still I think it's ease I can't say properly apparently. But a lot of the time people don't pick it. I haven't read anything for accents. I really love imitating and doing accent. So it's like, I'm really like listening to how people talk and how they shape their mouth when they talk. So yeah, don't take it personally. It's not a while I still pretend that most people can't tell. I'll go with that. Yeah, cool. Idea. So whereabouts were you born? Or where did you grow up? So I grew up in Wellington and I moved over here when I was 35. But yeah, I spent most of my life in Wellington City for a little stint in Palmerston North when I went to uni, and that was it. In other words, yeah, Wellington for most of my life. Yeah, you are a podcaster can you share with us what, what your podcast is about and how it all came about? So my podcast is interviewing Australian women who have decided to take motherhood into their own hands by having child using donor conception. So it's called no need for Prince Charming and basically Plan A didn't work out or maybe that wasn't even your plan or you just didn't want to partner and you've gone on to to have a child alone. It was inspired because that's the journey that I've been having to take. It's been a long road to get to that point but at 30 I decided to have a child on my own because Plan A wasn't working out, though this will hopefully help inspire and empower other women who are considering this journey, because it's something I wish I had when I was going through. Yeah, it's I mean, it's certainly a lot more common than I think people realize. It's, I mean, personally, I've known I mean, I, my, my town's only got a 30,000 people. And I know two people, like friends of mine, that that have taken that journey. And I'm sure there's so many more, but we just don't hear about it. So yeah, like having having the podcast. In the end, you're very active on your Instagram, sharing the stories and sharing experiences. And I think that's really important. I think going into it, I knew one person that I worked with who had done it, but I didn't really know her to have a proper open conversation about it. And I had a different perception in my mind about who does this sort of journey. So I was very big on joining the Instagram community and finding a lot of other like minded women. And then once I start the podcast, I'm just blown away by the variety of people, and the variety of ways and stories that they've had to go through it. But at the end of the day, they all tend to be very strong, very determined woman. So I'm building an amazing village of incredible woman surrounded with which is fantastic. The reasons that that mothers decide to do this, what sort of reasons are they very varied reasons paths are for for quite a few. It's just, they've tried the internet dated, they've been married, they've had relationship failures, whatever else. And they just get to the point where they just haven't found the right partner to have a child with. And for me, personally, I am divorced, I went through a pretty, pretty rough time and went through three years of infertility, a lot of IVF and ended up unfortunately, my son was stillborn. And after that my marriage didn't survive. And what was it? Six years later, I still hadn't met anyone. I even tried moving countries to see if I could find my elusive Prince Charming. I've done all the dating sites, I've done everything, but just nothing close to a relationship. So the day my dad died was actually the day I decided to do this. I thought what was most important to me was finding a partner. But actually what was most important was having a mother. And I'm glad that it happened when it did. Otherwise, it could have been too late. And yeah, and now I have my beautiful little Alexandra and having a partner is probably the last thing on my mind. At the moment. I don't know how he'd fit in, to be honest. But my life is so full, and I feel so content and just feel how I was always meant to be. So if anyone else is in the same situation where motherhood is the most important thing to them, rather than compromise or do something slightly dodgy, like doing a one night stand or something. There are other options nowadays, and it is a lot easier than it used to be. Yeah. on that. Are there particular sort of rules in different states in Australia, about accessing the treatment or the procedures to get pregnant by yourself? Yeah, so all states are different. Of course, there was one thing that really surprised me about Australia. And so I'm in Victoria, which is one of the most regulated in Australia, you basically can only use clinic referral recruited sperm. So every donor will be based in Victoria themselves, they asked darling to tweak the rules a little bit that they might be able to do overseas sperm, but it does mean that each individual clinic has to recruit its own donors. And it can be quite hard for them to do that. So you might have, especially after the pandemic, people are finding very hard to get access to sperm. So whereas I had a choice of, I think, 30, and 14 of which were Caucasian, and I wanted my daughter to look like me, so I wanted a Caucasian donor. So I could have like a fun party with my girlfriends and have champagne and, you know, made sperm cookies and sperm, bruschetta, toasts, and we, we went through all the profiles and, and worked out which one we want to cut out heads for magazines, and we gave them names, you know, made a really big deal about it to try and make it really fun. Women going through it today might have a choice of two, if they're lucky. So it's a little bit different. So any men if you're listening, and you would consider being a donor, please go and contact a clinic. And there's a definite need for it. Now, there are quite a few rules in regards to how many families can be created from a donor as well. So you would have probably potentially seen a lot of media, especially coming out of the states, where you know, there's donors that I've got hundreds and hundreds of children all around the world. In Victoria you can only give to 10 families so potentially there are nine other families that my daughter has half siblings created. and they can have unlimited children in their family, but it's only 10 families total. Yeah, there are other ways, I suppose that you could go down this path using a known donor, or there are some that aren't clinic recruited, that are doing through websites and that sort of thing. And just have to be very careful, if you are going to go down that route is just there are a lot of legal potential implications and other things that could come about. So the safest way is to go either with someone that you know, and get the proper legal documentation, or to do it through a clinic. So also in Victoria, there's a governing body, I guess you call it called Vatta. And they look after managing all of the donor donors and donor recipients. And then in the future, if my child wants to make contact with her donor, they'll help manage that for us, because you can't actually be an anonymous donor anymore. So you have to be what's called an ID release. So when the child turns 18, they can get access to contact you. I was actually going to ask about that, like, what's the ramifications down the track if if a child decides they'd like to meet their, their biological father? Yeah, right, it's really interesting with that are as well, they do counseling and things before you make the donor. So they help facilitate their contact in the first place. And then you do counseling for yourself, your child and the donor before those meetings happen as well. So everyone's going into it in the best frame of mind to get the most out of it. A lot of donors will say that they are open to contact before the child is 18 as well, if the child wishes that. So that's something you can push through again through Varta. And I think all states are different. But I think Victoria is the best for that sort of support, which is great for us because we live here. Yeah, absolutely. And is there also screening or testing to make sure there's no genetic abnormalities or illnesses or Yeah, so it's actually quite a process. If you're going through a clinic recruited donor, I think they have to have they do a lot of blood test, and they do a donation, and then they have to wait six months, and they do another donation and do more health checks, just to make sure nothing's changed in that time. And when you get the donor paperwork, when you're selecting which one you want, it's got the full family history in that as well. So if they had some sort of, they're a carrier for some sort of, say chromosomal issue, potentially, they wouldn't be allowed to be a donor, or it will be clearly displayed on the billing profile, so you knew what you're getting into. But you can see you know, that your grandmother, the grandmother had cancer, or their father died of a heart attack, all of that sort of thing. So you've got the full medical history, if you're going clinic recruited, that you can see exactly what you're getting yourself into, because some people might have in their family a high chance of cancer. So they might want to avoid a donor that's got that as well to try and minimize and passing things on. So you get a lot of information if you do the clinic, recruited path. Yeah. Just another question. I'm finding this really interesting. When when you get that the little book to look through to see who you're choosing from, do they give you information on what they're like, personally, like, their traits and stuff like that? Like how much information do you receive about the donor, the mind is going back, what, three, four years now. And things have changed a little bit. But I got you get a list of the profiles was very simple information, like the age height, not the age, just the height, hair color, eye color, nationality, I think. And then from that list, you would narrow it down to the ones you want to get full profiles for the full profiles, then give the demographic demographic information for the parents as well. So you can see so I could sit there and do like my fifth form biology and I've got brown eyes, my dad had blue, there's a chance that you know, and hit his mother had green so and it worked out because she got Hazel, so bad, but you can do that sort of thing better than it also they answer some questions. And then it's up to the donor, really how much information they put in there. Some are very short answers. Some are very long, but it can give you a bit of an indication about their personality, my donor, specifically when I read his profile as that I know, I feel like I know if I met you in real life, we'd get on really well. We had very similar values. He was all about family and animals. And just the way he'd written his answers. I could have written that myself. So yeah, and there's there's a wide variety there's, you know, highly educated there are some concrete workers there's there's everything. So there should be someone for for everyone, because everyone has different tastes and what they're looking for. But you do get quite a bit of information. And since I, what had my success well, for my daughter, though, they have changed things and they have a new sort of donor Bank, which they call Adam, I went through City Fertility and that's that's who they use. And when I rang up because you can ring and find out if there are any siblings, you can't get much information, you can just know that there's one or not. And they had more information from him, including toddler photos. So I now have title photos of my daughter's donor, which is really interesting because I always thought she was identical to my dad. Yeah. And then I saw the donor photo and it's like yeah, so some some clinics give you a lot of information. I think if you're in other states, but particularly in Western Australia, they use more American sperm banks and you get a lot of information. Some people even get recordings so they can hear the voice of the donor. So there is quite a bit that you get. But it's not quite like the movies where you've looking through the books. Oh, that's so interesting. Thank you for sharing that. So I want to go back a bit to obviously you went through the journey, and you were compelled to share it. Why did you choose podcasting? Like, are you do you have a background in like, writing? Or have you done anything like this before? Or? Not really? No, I was actually asked to be a guest on a podcast, a girl in America who runs a similar podcast called The single greatest choice. And I did the first half of my episode, the day before I got induced, know, the day I got induced, I think, Oh, yeah. And then six months later, I did the follow up to and so from that, then I sort of started listening to them. I hadn't really listened to podcasts a lot. Before that, I used to listen to kind of self help motivational ones, maybe on my walk to work, but nothing specifically to pregnancy, or solely mom by choice. And then it just got me thinking, and I think I had her in the beginning of the pandemic. So I first year maternity leave was basically the two of us at home, and couldn't leave the house more than an hour a day. Yeah. And I didn't realize how much I would love being a mum, and how much I became myself as a result. And it just made me really want to help other women make that choice as well. The amount of women that I met who are a bit older than me, will I wish that had been an option or that I'd gone down that path. I didn't want other people to be in that situation. So I thought this is a resource that I could help create. And what was most important was that there was an Australian voice for it, because there were many podcasts around the world, but not specifically with an Australian voice. And of course, every state is different, what you go through, and just want to provide a variety of stories, but also give people hope. I have some people who got pregnant they first IUI I have people who've had to go to South Africa to get egg donors as well. You know, there's a wide variety. So no matter where you are on your journey, or what you're contemplating, hopefully you can find a story relate to. And that's fantastic. I think that's wonderful. On to the more about your podcasting, how did you find setting it up and getting into a week? Are you the sort of person that I was talking to someone else the other day about when they started their podcast, and we're comparing our styles? Do you need to have everything like organized ready to go before you do it? Or are you the sort of person that just does it, and then sort of works things out? As it comes up as you're going? I think I watched quite a few YouTube videos that I found. I didn't even know how to do the RSS feed or how it even got on to Spotify. So I just did a bit of Googling and research and I'd work that much out and was like, okay, so I need to get a website where I can do this all and then I need to find some guests and how am I going to record it. So just Googling again, I found some great YouTube content and just watch that and my garage band. Sure. That's already on my computer can't be that hard. Need a microphone. Okay, buy a microphone. And then I just put the call out on Instagram and just said, you know, if I was to do this, would anyone volunteer and immediately I had I think 15 woman go yes. It was like, Okay, I've got the bass, I can do this. And it's just, I just backed myself and the first one probably took the longest to record because that was my story. Yeah, yeah. You're always so critical of yourself and what you sound like and everything else. And I think honestly, one of the biggest surprises is people keep commenting on how nice my voices never had that my whole life. Like I could listen to you for hours. You're so relaxing. I'm like, Am I okay? My dad always told me off for talking too fast. So maybe maybe I've grown up with a microphone in front of me. I don't know. But yeah, it's and then yeah, I just I just winged it. I don't get it. A lot of it. I have basically the same format for all and it seems to work. I have some feedback along the way which I've tried to incorporate so making it less about pregnancy and more about the conception and then life. So yeah, same kind of format everyone kind of know As what's coming if they've listened to an episode? Yep. And just whatever they're talking about, I guess which is probably the same for you. Yes. Very similar. Yeah, I find it's good. I like to have the the rough idea of the way I do each episode. Same thing people know what's coming, but then yeah, wherever it goes, it goes and I like that because I think people will talk about what they need to talk about. And same thing I don't eat it too much for takeout in my library and you stumble over my words, so do be careful you, daughter, how old is it? You call it Alexei? I've noticed on your Lexie on your Instagram and she calls herself Alexandra though so she will be she was Alex to start with but she was had no here for so long. Even though she was wearing a lot of pink. Everyone thought she was a boy. So my favorite Grey's Anatomy character. Or I loved I was actually watching that this morning. I've been rewatching it rewatching all the rewatching it for like the fifth time. Yeah. That's easy background noise when you're doing other things. You know what's coming? So yeah, that's thing you you miss a little bit. You've you've sort of know where they're going to be at when you come back to it. They're not going to do anything radically different. I'm actually I'm up to the what I don't even know what season it is now lose track. But Christine has just like quit. And so Derek's taking her fishing, and it's like this. It's just hilarious. So anyway, so far, I'm at the point where Christina and Burke are just about to get married. So ah, yeah, that that's that's that's a long time back. Yes. But now it's it's really I love that show. I never used to love it. I thought I'd watched it because everyone else was watching it. And I was like, oh, what's the so I'm gonna watch it. And then I sort of got off of it. But now it's up and you can watch everything on streaming and just sit there and watch it all day long. And Shonda Rhimes is another Solomon by choice. Oh, there you go. He's up via adoption. But yes, she has three kids by herself. Yeah. So there are a lot of inspiring, very successful woman who have gone down this path as well, which I think that's an interesting lessons just on it, Natalie. Yeah, baby guy. And I think that, can that be? I don't know, I was gonna say it can be inspiring, but it's at the same time. Could that make? I don't want to say normal people, because we're all normal in some, you know what I mean, but non celebrities who have access to buckets of money, you know, you might think, well, they're doing it because they've got a nanny or, you know, that sort of thing. Like, so I guess it could go either way. Couldn't? Yeah, I made a real a long time ago, which had a lot of different celebrities that most people weren't even aware of had done it by themselves. Yeah. And I think it's just if you see a powerful, successful woman, and she has been able to have do it as well, because of my Hollywood romances don't seem to last very long do they? But there are other options. And if they can do it, why can we? Yeah, no, I think that's that's fantastic. So How old's your daughter now? She will be three at the end of April. And times three year old? Oh, yes. I've been seeing your journey with a giving up the debris. That's fine. It has gone surprisingly well. Very glad. But now we're battling. I don't want to go to bed. And now she's climbing out of a cot. And yeah, I was at 1030 last night, and I thought was 10. And in my bed, which I'm not overly keen on. But it also means that I'm not getting any time for me, which I struggle with a bit mentally because that's, that's when I have my creative time and go after all my passion projects that I'm doing. So you know what it's like with a two and a half year old, if you're in the room, they need to be doing whatever you're doing. So you can't do anything for yourselves. Yeah, I had some really good routines previously. Yeah. Yeah. They like to throw spanners in the works, right. So I'm about to start recording the next season is like, how am I going to fit this in? If you're not going to sleep? I don't want to just stick you in front of an iPad or night. It's not the best habit. So hopefully, we can get that sorted in the next couple of weeks. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was gonna ask like, how what? When do you fit in doing the things that you'd like to do? So when, when she's in bed, you just go to go to work? So I get up at five in the morning now. Oh, wow. So I have to read two to two and a half hours to myself in the morning and most of that the last year has been spent on the podcast or my book. But this year, I need to start prioritizing my health so I'm going to try my gets on doing some exercise in that time as well before I move on to the passion project, so yeah. And then I used to be able to do it when she went to bed at seven. And that gave me a few hours at night as well. But yeah, that's not going to work if she goes to bed at 10, so I can get that fixed soon. So your book, I'm guessing that's about your journey and your experiences? No, no, tell me what it is. It's actually an illustrated children's book. And it's trying to bring awareness and normalities and language associated with donor conception. So it's showing that that all families are beautiful and perfect, no matter how they're made, and that all kids are just the same as everyone else. So there is 12 families in it. And I've got everything, same six families, divorced families, widower, and solid mom by choice and just normalizing the language. So you know, if the same sex family they had their child as a result of a surrogate or it's written better than that, but and then with me, it's with the help of a donor. So just normalizing that language that ideally, kids will get to the stage where they say, oh, Lexi doesn't have a dad, she has a donor and not think anything more of it, and possibly comments and just completely normalized. So yeah, I'm just waiting for my first print run to arrive. Really excited. Oh, congratulations. That's so exciting. So did you did you illustrate as well, you knew, you. Give me another surprise. That was probably the hardest part out of all of it. So when you asked him before how I went about doing the podcast, this was something I've had ideas about writing books for, oh, my God, I don't know how long I've started my memoir, probably about 50 times, and never done it. But then I had the idea of doing a children's book. And then this idea kind of came to me that there's nothing really in the market that normalizes that language. I think my target market is, shall we call air quotes, normal, traditional families. So then if they've got, you know, little Sammy comes to school, and he's got two dads, how do I explain that to my child? Here's a book that just shows you all that. And it makes it really normal and really fun. So a woman that I'd met through Instagram had published some donor conception books, which are more targeted to couples who've had us donate eggs, or sperm, or I've done it by themselves and and talks more for the child about how they were conceived. And I didn't want to do another book like that, because there are a few out there. But I had a really good conversation with her to understand exactly what she went through. And then I got over that whole paralysis of how, and they had a clear plan. Okay, this is what I need to do to get it. The words were probably the easy part was finding an illustrator, that was the hardest. Yeah. And I went through a few through on Fiverr, and everything else, and I ended up putting a call out on LinkedIn and Instagram to see if anyone knew anyone. And then I got recommended my my beautiful illustrator through that. She's got a friend that's actually solid mom by choice, it was following me. And so then I got in contact with her and Oh, my God, I loved the process, like both here and I miss it. Because like, every day, she'd be drawing different pictures. And we'd be having calls on it and going, Oh, what about doing this and these changes and tweaks and, and she learned a lot on the process as well. She's comes from a very traditional family construct her husband's a detective, she's got three kids, she lives in a small town, Victoria, you know, very different from the world that she was, she was illustrating. But she managed to take the pictures out of my head onto paper. And I just love the result. And the collaboration that we did to do it as well was just a really beautiful process. So fantastic. So what did you call the book? My perfect family? Yeah, right. I love that. So when will people be able to get their hands on it? So pre orders are open now. And I'm just waiting for the first print run to arrive. And so yeah, you can order it now. And by the time this podcast comes out, I'm sure it'll be in my hot little hands. And I'll be sending it out and spending my nights fighting a toddler to package up books, but you know, that's okay. Oh, fantastic. So you've got a website? What's your website called? It's my perfect family. book.com beautiful. All right, I'll put a hyperlink in the show notes for people to click away on. Oh, well download. It's fantastic. I work in early childhood education. So I've worked in childcare, long daycare setting for nine years and now working kindergartens. And I'm really amazed by I want to say the quality of children's books and then the knock quality of children's books. There are some really really poorly written books and I think how the heavens did this ever get printed, like how did this get past the checking of what's appropriate? You know, and then there are some lovely books but I've never seen a book that is doing what you're doing so well done. I'm really excited on the graphic Copy. Yeah, I think there's some beautiful books out there that show different families. But they don't talk about how they made. Yes, yes. Hopefully just solve that little gap as well. And I'd love to get it into daycares and schools. And yeah, like I say, I think their target audience is actually more traditional families so that they can help explain to their children, that families made all sorts of different ways. But every family is perfect, no matter how they're made. So yeah, absolutely. And I've spoken a bit lately to particular people about getting children involved in social issues, and from a young ages possible, because when they get to a certain point, they're really led by what adults, what sort of beliefs that they hold, so then they put them on their children, they change, you know, the innocence of that what that child held before that point. So I really think it's yeah, this will be really, really helpful for adults too, because it can be a little bit confronting and confusing to know how to refer to people and how they like to be referred to, I think it's the whole thing of my daughter doesn't have a father, she doesn't have a dad. It's not that there, he lives in a different house, or overstays, although I don't know who he is, is that she doesn't actually have one, she has a donor. So the more we can normalize that language, and that kids just say she doesn't have one share the donor. And there's, there's an acceptable alternative that they can put in there instead of dad, then hopefully, that will help build acceptance out of everyone. So like you said earlier, you can get that information into kids, the better. Yeah, and then be like, Oh, they've got donor, oh, well, this, this family's got two mums, or they had to use a donor as well. Okay. Donors are useful for lots of people. Yeah. And it just becomes that's just the normal way of speaking. It's not, Oh, don't say that. Or do you know, like this dad, and I think it when I was growing up, yeah, growing up in such inclusive times anyway, then it's not going to be like, what it would have been for us in the 90s. You know, if someone didn't have a dad, it would have been very strange. And now we'll just be like, I have one. And yeah, it's really great time to be embarking on this, because there's so many different families. And I feel that they are all really accepted no matter how much how they constructed. Yes, great. No, I love it. And I put on Yum, that's fantastic. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. Now, I want to talk about your identity before you became a mom. So you mentioned before, it was really a really positive thing that becoming a mum allowed you to be become who you are sort of thing. How was that experience for you? It really, really positive, positive thing really? Yeah. So I think when I look back on it, as long as I can remember, all I wanted to do and all that determines success was for me was to get married and have children. I don't know where that's come from. If that was just, you know, I grew up in the 90s. And watching Beverly Hills nine to one, I don't know. But as long as I can remember, the most important thing was to find that husband. So I found a husband, and got married, when he eight turns out he wasn't the best husband for me. And I probably just settled because I wanted to tick those boxes, and have the husband had the white picket fence, everything. I also wanted the career. And that was kind of what defined me. So once I lost the husband and the big house, and the only thing that was left was my career. So I started focusing really strongly on that, and doing everything possible, and usually not in the best ways to find the new man and the husband. Number two, I was convinced. So New Zealand, you have to be separated two years before you can get divorced, I was convinced I would be engaged by the time, you know that I was divorced. And I think so much of my self worth and everything else was determined by whether I had a partner or not. Which is, in hindsight, very sad. But I haven't got to the point, I moved to Australia, and I contemplated freezing my eggs, but I thought no, what's more important is that I find that other person to share my life with and if it's meant to be a workout. And that was I think just probably bearing down the trauma of having to go through infertility for so many years. And Lester Watson and the rest of that. When I made this decision that night when I when I got pregnant, I had quite a bit of anxiety throughout the pregnancy after obviously, pregnancy after loss. But once I could start feeling her move and that sort of thing. I relaxed a bit more into it and I just I just had this overwhelming feeling that it was going to work out. And I just had faith from that one that I was going to and then went to it was just me and her. So like I said it was full pandemic. I think my last seven weeks of work. I was at home and then my neighbor dropped me at the hospital. So I could have stayed in the hospital for five nights came home. And then it was basically just us for the first six months. And it was just a beautiful little bubble, I didn't have to worry about work, I didn't have to worry about proving myself to anyone, I couldn't have visitors. So my house ended up being the tightest it's ever been. But you know, it wasn't that pressure because people were here or just because I had nothing else to do. They were so relaxed, she was a great sleeper. And either and I don't know, I just I just felt so content in myself and my own little life. And I still feel that way. Now. I mean, it's a bit bit of a hustle at the moment, because I have a full time job, as well as all my side things. And her and I want her to experience as much as possible and do things that, you know, interests here. So we're doing swimming lessons, and dancing, and all of that stuff. So it's a pretty busy life. And the thing that's gone is my social life. Yeah. But I don't need that. Like I used to. I used to fixate on that being a definition of how popular or how like there was whatever else and it's like going out to a bar is the least interesting thing possible to me right now. I want to spend it with quality people and doing quality things. And ideally, that involves my daughter as well. So yeah, life has changed considerably. And then a element. Yeah. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. So sure, I keep looking at your cat sitting there. Teresa. What what breed is she is Burmese and she had her teeth done last week, so it's just a bit too late today. She hasn't been very quiet since normally. She just jumps up and down on my desk and cries the whole time. So yeah, at least quiet. But yeah, she's seen a lot of meetings, like Jilin like, oh, I used to have a bit of maize. And his name was Teddy. And he was because she's gorgeous. What's your name? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, he was he was a beautiful boy. But he, when he came, sort of matured, he started attacking my other cat that he had leaving with us and older cat. And we ended up having to find him a new home. But she had a lovely home as a single cat. He just wasn't the sort of cat that could live for you. That was she had a brother, who I lost last year, a year ago. And then I got the dog. And they were not happy about that. And the old cat that her brother used to beat up the dog when we lost Rodrigo. Now knocklyon Let me like cuddle up together and things and nothing they protecting each other from the toddler states. Oh, love it. topic that I really like to talk about with mums is the concept of mum guilt. And I'm wondering what you think about that, if you have any thoughts on that. It's interesting one, I don't feel like I have much mum guilt. But then I questioned whether I'm doing a good enough job quite a bit lately, as and I think maybe the mum, guilt will come more as she gets older. And I think if I do not have the downtime to be able to have time to myself and pursue my things, that really starts taking a toll on me. And unfortunately, that can come out on her as well. So you know, if she's not going to be detained 30 My Yeah, not my best morning, I have never felt guilty about going back to full time work. And my mum and dad both worked full time, what I am very conscious of is that I don't want her to see me working and prioritizing work over here. So going back to work, I've had very strong boundaries, and I've managed to stick to them. So previously, before her, I would be working sort of 60 to 80 hours a week, sometimes now, you don't get me out of nine to 530. That's it. And I think going back to work and working from home for most of it because of the pandemic did help make that transition a lot easier. And we have really strong routines that mean that we have some quality time in the morning and we have quality time when I pick her up at night as well. And we try to do the same sort of things. So don't think that daycare is actually the best thing for her as well like being with your little buddies and what she's learning in that social interaction. So I don't feel guilty about that. And I don't think I'd be a very good stay at home mom anyway. My dream would be that I don't have to work for someone else. And then my book and whatever else I pursue, can allow me to have sort of an income where I can be the more present especially when she goes to school and she has no shorter days. I would love to be able to drop her off and pick her up each day and take Get your whatever activity she's doing and be more involved in her life rather than leave that to someone else. But my mum actually moved over here when I had my daughter. Yeah, so she lives 10 minutes walk away. So if it's not me, it will be it will be grandma. So I'm very, very lucky for that. But yeah, ideal world, by the time she's at school, I'll be able to be even more involved. She definitely is the priority when I'm not at work. So you're trying to get that balance between working from home and work in the office makes a big difference, as well for trying to have that quality time at home to just focus and do work and do most of my meetings. They when I go to the office, it's just back to back meetings all day. But take all those things off so that my days at home, I can just focus and get work done. So again, and then trying to do so like do the washing during the day, that sort of thing. That's always waiting for a meeting. Yeah. So again, when it's my daughter and I, it's just quality time, it's not doing bullshit chores and that sort of stuff. I knew you wouldn't put on your truck, that monkey, I just had a feeling that that wouldn't be like feel like it. It's yeah, I think that's awesome. I love that I once had someone, give it to people on who didn't have it. And one of them had to google it, because they just didn't even know what it was. And I thought that is so awesome. That's what we all should be like? Well, I think most of it is sending them to daycare, isn't it, but I think that's the best thing for him. Honestly, I feel guilty about that. I never feel guilty for that. Because I've been like I've been in that industry. And it is wonderful that the children thrive, the social interaction, what they're learning, and just the stuff that they can do there that they could never do at home. You know, it's just when you pick them up, you get these lovely compliments, and it's like, well, I must be doing something. No. And then the thing the other thing is by working full time, it means that I can afford the lifestyle that I want to give so I'm not gonna feel guilty about that. Yeah, I would rather have that and then struggle and have to worry about you know, if I had enough food to feed or or pay the bills, I'd rather be able to, you know, go to Fiji. Yeah. Yes, that'd be excellent. Have you done much traveling? The two of you. We went to New Zealand at the end of last year. I'm gonna say that was a trip not a holiday. It was it was hard work. New Zealand is not a great place for toddlers. And I think we probably went too long. But it was really important for mum to go. And it helped her solidify that she had made the right decision. So that was good. And it was lovely for me to be able to introduce Lexi to my friends that you know, haven't seen in years. But know next time I want kids clubs so that I get a holiday to sound sounds perfect. And I'm actually going with another solo mom friend that I've met through Instagram. It's one of those people like she feels like your bestie but we've never actually met in real life, but her daughter's similar act. So I think we'll have a really great time together. Oh, lovely. That's exciting when you get when you're doing that in June, so I'm going for my birthday. Love anymore does it so and you'll be escaping the Melbourne weather in winter two, which we love with that's usually not too bad. By this ages. I've could have lifted longer to really escape but it no good on Yeah, you got to do these things. So do you find that? Um, no, I think people and even families with young kids, regardless of whether they're, there's one parent or two can be really reluctant to do things with young kids because they're put off you know, this is going to be hard or whatever. Like do you have any advice for for people listening that might feel like that? No, I'm already feeling like it's gonna be hard. I'm hoping this time though, she'll be a bit more open to just sitting with the iPad on the plane. But the first time it was like this is all new. I did have to make a big call on it though. Stupidly, if I went via Sydney it would save me $1,100 Oh, so I had to really wait out but that's a lot of money. Yeah, to a save it and take nine to 10 hours to get there and have to get through like Sydney Airport with a bag and potentially sleeping toddler because we were getting to Melbourne and live 11 o'clock at night or something or do I just pay the money? And it's like, no, I'm just gonna pay the money. It's just easier just to fly direct get here hopefully have lounge access if I can Wingull that. And then just like direct and be there not two flights, having run in between and all the rest of it because it's the time at the airport I found was probably the hardest. When we went to New Zealand was coming home she just knows time of day. So it's like if you can get an early flight I think that we're really helped us or when they're going to likely sleep. But yeah, there's just no easy way I think to travel with kids. So just suck it up and go, because it'll be amazing once you're there. Let's see theory. Don't let it stop you from doing it. Just do it. Yeah, and it depends on the kid to like, they're so different, like my two, I've got seven years difference between mighty. And one, you could do so many things within the other one you've just been, you'd just be a full believer and try certain things. Oops, you know, it's it's like, you just never know how things are gonna work out. And you just don't know how much they're gonna change. And that time as well. I mean, that's six months from now. Yeah, be like a little angel. That's the or she could be a complete terror that wants to run around the whole plane. I'm not sure. Let it put me off booking. So yeah, that's what you said a time. Yeah, no good on. Yeah, I think that's really good. Other things that I wanted to trips we want to take, but I just need to wait till she's older. Like I can't wait to take it to Disneyland. But there's no point doing that until probably about eight and actually appreciate it properly. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. So you talked before about the needing to do your passion projects like that as your outlet is that is that something that you really hold on to is as something that's really important to you and, and part of who you are? I think so I think previous to Lexie, it was my outlet was sewing in the did a lot of that. And when my first year maternity leave again, I still did a lot of sewing and I was making a lot of things for her. But now it's going to, I've got a why, since I've had her. It's I'm so passionate about creating these things. And actually having follow through as well. I think I've been someone who's always had a lot of ideas, but just not the courage to back myself to follow through with them. And I want her to see me as someone who does that, so that she can be encouraged that she has ideas, she can just go ahead and go after her dreams as well. And I think maybe it started with my dream was to become a mom and I had the follow through to have it on my own. So if I can do that, I can do anything. And I think getting really clear. So I did some some dream life work through an is Kiki K book or something and that I would love, I would love to not have to work for someone else. And so it's finding one of those things, and I guess getting over the imposter syndrome a lot of the time as well. To say, you know, I can be that person and I can do these things and that there is worth and what I'm doing and I think the podcast was the first start, the fact that I have people volunteering, I haven't really had to go out too hard or chase people down. And I've got enough to do the full season. And I've already got, you know, the first few months of next of this year, done, I just have to eat at them. Sure you put that off to like, I can do that. And that was successful. I just need to work out a way to monetize it. And it's like, now I've got an idea for a book. Why not? It's just understanding the how to do it. I'm getting the networks that will back what I do as well. And it's helping them help their kids. So yeah, yeah, good on. Yeah, I love that. It's very inspiring. It's awesome. Have you always felt like that throughout your life? Or is that something that's happened as you've gotten older, do you think? I think I've always had ideas, and I've always ideally would work for myself. But I've just never had the courage to do it. And I haven't I think I've been surrounded by the cheerleaders that I needed to do that. And now, I guess I've got the cheerleaders in the online community, but it's also I've become my own cheerleader with things. Yeah, but it's also who I've met, that can help and to actually ask for help. So you know, talking to Nat, who'd already published her book to understand how she did and I basically just completely copied exactly what she did. It's just with my illustrations and my words, but you know, the same size book so that I know that all fit into a certain size envelope, so that I can put it as a large envelope instead of having to pay package, you know, postage and all those sort of things. Yeah. Consider things when you can just learn from someone who's already done it. So yeah. And then doing a few kind of self development courses as well. Just to really get clear what my vision is. And what why I want the life that I do for Lexi and I and I think it's because I want it so much for her. Yeah, it just gives me that real drive to try and create it. I've got it really clearly in my head what it looks like and I can't wait to have that with her but it's gonna take some work so she needs to go to sleep that's a part in the plan because she all she has to do is go to sleep. Go to sleep and we're going to have an amazing yeah, yeah. I have funny. Oh, that's great. So obviously, in the future, you've, you've got the book coming out, which is so exciting. I'm really excited to get a copy of that, actually, and to take it to my work T. What can you share this coming up, I would love to actually write my memoir. Like I said, I've started about 50 times, I would think there'll be really, and I think the ending has changed so much, and what the focus would be has changed so much as well, that exists every, every year, it evolves a little bit more. And I think I'm probably getting to become one of the best versions of myself at the moment. So the journey of how I got to that, and maybe it's just part a, I don't know, but I'd love to do that. But again, that's going to take considerable amount of my child being asleep to write that. I've got other ideas about building a body more resources and community for other women embarking on this journey, and, and to help support them just to kind of have everything in one place, really. So if you're thinking about, you know, finding information needs, maybe some online courses and that sort of thing. But again, for that it's time and getting over impostor syndrome, I think is the biggest one for them. I've got the domain name and I've got the Instagram page. I just haven't done anything with it. It's got to coming soon. So yeah, right. It makes you do solo solo mum society. So Oh, I love it. I've got a cool name. Yeah, do something. Yeah, no good on. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. I really love chatting with you. And I've learned so much. And I'm sure a lot of my listeners have learned a lot to you. So thank you for sharing. So honestly, it's been great. Yeah, and all the best so I'm really excited for you. If you want to learn more, no need for Prince Charming is the podcast on my Instagram page. So I share probably way too much on that but good on. Yeah, that's awesome. Thanks again, if the music you heard featured on today's episode was from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Lisa Sugarman US writer S2 Ep57 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest today is Lisa Sugarman, a writer and mum of 2 grown daughters from that famous town of Salem Massachusetts, USA. Before having her children Lisa was a newspaper (news and feature) reporter, writing for magazines and papers in the US. Lisa was a teacher for 15 years in local school system, as a class room teacher, coach administration and one-on-one aid for children with special needs. It was after her children were a little older and she working in the school system that Lisa got back into her writing, writing about her own personal experiences in parenting, producing a column for her local paper just for fun. in 2009 her column "It Is What it Is" became a nationally syndicated column throughout the US and then around the world. This lead her to the opportunity to write books, full of content the helps and inspires families, and in particular mothers, and based around how to embrace your perfect imperfectness. Let the mistakes happen and embrace them. This lead her to the radio in Boston for many years. **This episode contains discussion around mental health, suicide + the death of a parent ** Lisa lost her dad to suicide when she was 10 years old, but didn’t find out that he took his own life until about 35 years later. Now, because of that life-changing experience, Lisa is a passionate and vocal advocate for suicide awareness and prevention and she's telling her story as a way of encouraging others to tell theirs. Lisa is also a proud ally and member of the LGBTQIA+ community. She lives by the motto "It’s okay that life is messy…because we're all a work in progress." Today in addition to my regular topics, we end up talking a lot about social media, and the role it has played in creating 'helicopter parenting'. and the affects of its portrayals of unrealistic perfection on our guilt and parenting expectations. If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Lisa's website / The Vomit Booth Read about the Salem Witch Trials We mention the Uvalde School shooting and The Beaumont Children Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman.I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to today's episode. Thank you so much for joining me it really is an absolute privilege and an honor that you've chosen to listen to my podcast. My guest today is Lisa Sugarman. Lisa is a writer and a mum of two grown daughters from that very famous Town of Salem, Massachusetts in the United States. Before having a children Lisa was a newspaper, news and feature reporter writing for magazines and papers in the US. Lisa spent 15 years working in local schools as a classroom teacher, a coach in administration, and a one on one aid for children with special needs. It was after her children were a little older, and she was working in the school system that Lisa got back into her writing, writing about her own personal experiences in parenting, producing a column for her local paper just for fun. In 2009 Her column it is what it is, became a nationally syndicated column throughout the US and then around the world. This led to the opportunity to write books full of the content that helps and inspires families and in particular mothers and based around how to embrace your perfect imperfectness. This led Lisa to host her radio show in Boston for many years. This episode contains discussion around mental health and suicide and the death of a parent. Lisa lost her dad Jim to suicide when she was 10 years old. But she didn't find out that he took his own life until about 35 years later when she was 45. Now because of that life changing experience, Lisa is a passionate and vocal advocate for suicide awareness and prevention. And she's telling her story as a way of encouraging others to tell theirs. Lisa is also a proud ally and member of the LGBTQ plus community. She lives by the motto. It's okay that life is messy, because we're all a work in progress. Today amongst the usual topics I like to discuss, we end up talking a lot about social media and the role that it's played in creating helicopter parenting, and the effective it's portrayals of unrealistic perfection on our guilt and our parenting expectations. The music you'll hear today is from my trio, LM Joe, which is made up of myself, M Anderson, my sister and her husband, John, we play new age and ambient music. If you're triggered by anything we discussed today, please reach out for help, either to those around you, or by seeking assistance online. I've compiled a great collection of international resources. If you're looking for a place to start, you can head to the podcast landing page. Alison Newman dot net slash podcast. Thanks so much for coming on today. Lisa, it's a real pleasure to welcome you to the podcast. It's such a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So you're in America, we're about to you. So we live about 15 miles north of Boston on the east coast of the country. And we're in this cute little, semi famous city of Salem. Wherever you might be in the world, you can recognize that name, because it's got a lot of history attached to it. So we just we just moved actually from my hometown about a mile down the road. A little a little sea coast town and the birthplace of the American Navy. We just moved out maybe nine months ago, we just our girls are grown women now and we didn't need a house in any particular neighborhood anymore. And we just kind of took advantage of the crazy real estate market and sold and moved down the road. So we're in Salem. Oh, very good. So you're getting yourself set up in that special little town is it how many people live there? Is it very big Salem? In Salem? Um, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say that at this point. I know the exact population but it's a pretty densely populated city and it's it's fairly Large. So there are definitely, definitely a lot of people i We live in an area of Salem that's kind of not in the hustle, we're a little bit removed from where people who are tourists would typically come to see and everything involving the witch trials. And, you know, you know all of that history you would go maybe two or three miles away from where we are, but it's a pretty it's a pretty densely populated little city. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. I think that pretty much everyone that's listening, probably recognize the name and the connections and the history. Yeah. I remember reading the crucible in year 11, or 12. Yeah. Yeah, that's something like we obviously have our own sort of histories here. But we've got we've got nothing sort of along those lines. So it's really fascinating to sort of, and I don't know how much of that is really true, either. Like, is there a bit of sort of folklore that goes along with? Yeah, there's, there's, there's some lore attached to it, for sure. And it's definitely I'm sure been embellished over the years, but I think, you know, so much of it, believe it or not, is, is actually very true. And it's been very well documented. And I mean, we haven't taken the tours since I was in grade school. And we would, you know, we would always, it would always be like a little junket to Salem to, you know, kind of take advantage of all that history. That's there. So I mean, I, I know that, you know, there is there's a lot of truth, kind of woven into all of those legends as well. So it's, it's a pretty deeply historical spot with so much significance. And it's neat, especially around October, Well, depends on your perspective, if you're from here, you want to be as far away from here as possible. If you're not here, like the entire world seems to converge on Salem, for the month of October. So everybody that that I know, knows to stay far away, because it's a little chaotic. Yeah. It's also kind of cool that everyone was, would be really interesting. Living in a place like that. So tell us a little bit about yourself lay. So what you do what you've done, I guess you can expand for as long or as short as you wish. So the floor is yours. Yeah, I appreciate that. So first and foremost, I mean, I'm I'm a mom, I have two very grown daughters, my youngest just turned 22. And our oldest is turning 25 in another few weeks. So I've been at it for a while that a little motherhood game. I was a teacher in our local school system for many, many years, probably close to 15 years and wore a lot of different hats in kind of in that role was a classroom teacher was a coach worked in administration was a one on one aid supporting just individual children with special needs over the years. So I had a really, really big open wide lens to really kind of view the parent child relationship, that that whole dynamic, the way the whole family system works, the way kids are, are educated and supported. So that's kind of what tracked me over toward what I've been doing most recently, in the last decade or so. I've always been a writer. So before I had children, I was a newspaper reporter for many, many years and wrote for magazines here in the US, and this way pre pre internet and that whole explosion. And we kind of took a break, or I took a break from that and stayed home and raised our daughters. And then it's just so funny how, how things happen. So unexpectedly, like you're you're tracking in one direction, and then you get an opportunity. And it kind of puts you on a on a totally different path. And that's what happened to me. I was working in the school systems. And just for fun, I started writing again, I had never written a column in my life, I was always a news and feature reporter and I just for fun started contributing to my local paper, because I had had some pretty deep connections there when I was in college. And they're always asking, you know, these these little hometown newspapers or I was desperate for people to, you know, to give them content. So I just started writing about what I was living at the time and what I was living with parenthood. So I started writing. And little by little, it just started catching on and people started responding really well to it. And it just birthed this whole brand new career. So the column was syndicated, it's called it is what it is. And it was just syndicated throughout this media organization, it was all over the country and then it kind of, you know, by virtue of the internet, it goes all over the world. So that happened for men. I've got like 12 years 11 or 12 years I was writing the column I still do and from time to time less so because I started focusing on books. And that led me to the opportunity to write books. And I've written a few of them, parenting focused all about kind of how to embrace your perfectly imperfect, this is really the easiest way to understand it. Let the mistakes happen, embrace them, and, and really kind of find the good nuggets that are within that. And then that kind of led me to the radio, and I ended up on the radio for a couple of years here in Boston. And so it's just, it's just been this, this really cool little flow of opportunities that have all kind of centered around creating content that helps support and inspire families and in particular moms. So that's, that's kind of the long answer to the How did I get to this point? And what kind of stuff do I do? So? Yeah, I still very much enjoy writing parenting content, although I've kind of shifted my focus a little bit. And I'm doing a lot of mental health advocacy, and suicide awareness and prevention and doing a lot of speaking and, and writing about that as well. So that that's, that's all interrelated, because it really, it impacts our kids an awful lot. And, you know, it's important to start and have those conversations. So that's kind of what I'm doing now. Yeah, right. So with your books, do you sort of draw on your own personal, like things that have happened to you, things that you've learned, or, I don't know, wish you'd known that kind of stuff? Yeah, that's exactly where it comes from. That's, that's where everything, just about everything that that I've done has come from, it's all anecdotally based. So it's really just either, you know, stories and experiences from my own childhood, or from, you know, the experience of raising my own children. And all of that experience being in the school system, both in the classroom and kind of in the administration role, and working with parents and kids so closely, and I just started seeing, you know, I started seeing such a pattern with parents and with children and parents were just getting so overwhelmed by this, this invisible need to be the perfect parent to have the perfect kid to make sure that they didn't make any mistakes, to make sure that their kids never fell on their face to make sure that, you know, there was no struggle. And in doing that, and it was all based from a place of love and caring for their children. But they were absolutely crushing their kids with these crazy expectations of how they should behave and what they should accomplish and how, I guess how, just how perfect they should be. And and it was it was really debilitating. And you can see the kids being affected by that and such negative ways. Kids kids couldn't couldn't build resilience, because they couldn't do things for themselves. They weren't allowed to do things for themselves. So I just started voicing my opinion, I guess, is what you could say about how counterproductive I thought that was. And that we really need to let our kids figure it out by failing by trying one way doesn't work. You go another way and, and it just really stirred up. You know a lot in me in terms of wanting to help parents understand that they don't have to be perfectly you can give yourself permission to trump the balls. And, you know, to kind of embrace that madness because parent parenthood, like if you can't laugh at parenthood, then you're in the wrong job, you know, yeah, that's it, isn't it? I've got just after you've said that, I've got that many things I want to ask you. I've got so many questions, I can take you in lots of different directions. So I'm gonna go, let's go. I'm gonna go with so talking. I mean, the phrase that sort of comes to mind when you're talking about that, that method of parenting, that helicopter parenting where you've always got to be over the top of your kids making sure things go right. Like you said, they don't. They don't get that chance to build their resilience because they don't get the opportunity to fail and experience Is that sort of emotions and that sort of stuff? I wonder, because often we talk about different generations and how they were parented and the sort of norms that were around, then, when do you think things started to really change and become this different way of parenting? Because I remember, as a kid, you know, being allowed to go out for most of the day, ride my bike around the neighborhood, do all this sort of stuff. And now it's like, oh, no, you can't do that something will happen to you like, when did that start to change? Do you think and what might have brought about that change? You know, it's funny that you should say that because I talk about that with my daughters, what we you and I have had similar experiences. The town that I grew up in this little coastal Harbor Town, just north of Boston, a mile from where I am right now is just this little peninsula town, surrounded by a harbor, four square miles, we would get on our bikes, there were train tracks, paths all around town, where you could get to and from one end and the other and that's all we did, we would be outside until Billy Fallon's mom rang the bell or blew the slide whistle and like the whole neighborhood would scatter and go home because they knew it was time to go home. But we out for like a second the sun came up. And we'd be on the path and we'd be downtown, we'd be in the harbor, and, and my kids, my kids were bike riders, not to that same degree. But they were the kids playing manhunt. I don't know if it's manhunt is a game that that, you know, it's it's tag, it's just like, all throughout the neighborhood and in the trees and in the fields and whatnot. So it still existed when my kids were young, but I feel like I can't say that there was a catalyst, like, I don't necessarily know that I can say, okay, that at that exact time, because of that exact event, everything shifted. But I do think it was somewhere in between our generation and my children's generation, where, you know, I think, I think meet the social media influence has just brought so much fear, it's done so much good. But it's also done so much damage. And I think that, with that constant connection, and that constant flood of information, and news and, and trauma, we're all living through trauma. I mean, look, no further. I don't know if the news has arrived yet. Of what happened in Texas. Okay, so, and I'm really my heartbreaks. For you guys over there. It's just shocking. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, as as someone who taught for so many years, and as the mom of two daughters, both of whom are teachers currently. You know, it's hard, I have so many teacher friends, and just a mom, and anyone who, of course, especially as a parent, can just hear that, that situation about those those poor children and those teachers who were killed. And it's just, it's devastating. And it's like, but we the reason why I'm bringing that up is because the second that happened, the world knew about it. It was everywhere. It was on, it was buzzing on every phone and every tablet on the planet. And so everyone is sharing in that trauma, everyone is experiencing that fear. Everyone is making plans because of it to protect their children. What else can I layer around my child? How else? How better Can I bubble wrap my child and my family and my world. And so we've got those influences in ways that we never had them before. So on the one hand, having something like social media or a phone or the ability to connect with your kids, when they're off in the world, is great, because it's kind of like that umbilical cord is still partially connected. And that's a comforting feeling. But I think we've leaned too heavily into that, to the point where everything is about instant gratification now. Why is my kid not texting me back? What happened to them? Did they get hit by a car? Did they get abducted? Did they I mean, like, so I think that you know, there's a there's a good side and a bad side to this whole social media phenomenon. But I think that, that right there. If I were going to point to one thing that has really done more damage, it's that because now everyone's hearing from every possible angle in the world. What could happen to your kid if you let them out the door? Yeah, you know, and so I think because of that, we've just, maybe our generation, my generation, I guess, has just clamped down an awful lot harder. Out of fear. Yeah. Yeah, it's very fear driven, isn't it? It's that need to keep people safe or stop, stop the bad thing happening or stop them from feeling upset or bad or, you know, emotions that we see as negative or that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because I don't want to talk about bad stuff. But as an example, there was years and years ago in Australia, there was some children abducted though, called the Beaumont children. And for years and years and years. That was like the only, I guess, episode of that nature that we all knew about it. This was back in the 60s, I think. And so you know that that thing you're saying about, we're all connected now. Any everything in anything that happens? We all hear about it. So there probably was other stuff going on, but we just didn't know about it. Yeah. So once we know about it, we'll go Oh, no. And yeah, go into that fury action. I'm glad you brought up social media, because that was something I was going to ask you about this notion of perfection, the the way that now because we see this curated version of people's lives, we not everybody, but a lot of people want to present the very best of themselves on social media, you know, which is fair enough, I suppose you want to even want to look good or whatever, but unrealistic, to the point where, you know, it's really not reflective of people's lives. And so it's giving off this false sense of perfection. So then everyone else that's consuming that information, starts to think, oh, no, I must be doing something wrong. My life doesn't look like that. Yeah. Is that something that you sort of you agree with? Oh, yeah. Not only do I Gree with it, but I talk about it, often, I write about it even more often. And I really appreciate the fact that you use the word curate, because when I do talk about it, that is always my go to word. Because that is exactly what's happening. People, people are filtering or curating the best of the best of the best. And in most cases, and I mean, you know, there, I think there's now a happy to see now that there seems to be a little bit of a shift, where people are like, No, that's bullshit. Why am I doing that? Why am I why? Why are we only putting this facade out there? It's this veneer of what's you know, of what we think people want to see or what we want to project. And I think people are getting tired of it quickly, because it's sending such a, you know, such a damaging message. And it's creating, you know, we fall as parents into such a comparison trap, and I write about this, my co author and I write a lot about this, in our most recent book, we have an entire chapter devoted to not know, not falling into this comparison trap. And I think the biggest, the biggest suck into that trap, is what we're seeing on social media, and we really can't avoid it. I mean, do you know, do you honestly also know, a human being at this stage of life that does not have some kind of a device? I mean, unless it's like a newborn. And even I think the newborns, there must be like a newborn tablet or something, right? And they give you this push on. So I mean, it's like, granted, you know, people use things to different degrees. And not everybody who has social, you know, social media is on Instagram, and not everyone is part of Facebook or not, but the majority are, and, you know, when you're in that world, it's impossible to avoid seeing what's being put out there. And when you, you look at that, and you start comparing yourself to that, it's, I don't want to use the word traumatizing because I think that that might be a little bit of a strong word to use, but it's it definitely leaves a mark on you. If you're like, Well, wait a minute, like, how come that mom of 12 children is so beautifully, like she's perfect looking and dressed, you know, dressed like to the, to the nines, and she's, you know, she's she's driving her SUV and she's got her coffee in her hand and all of her children have braids. They're all wearing dresses. She's all made up, like, like, come on, like, this is crap. Like people like you know, I know so many moms who are Like, I couldn't even like, find a robe, to put on myself to get my kid to, like, conceal my, my pajamas to drive my kid to school, you know, you know, like throwing kids into into the school, like throw an apple and a handful of Cheerios at your kid and then dump them in the car. And so it's like, we need, we need that reality check. And we need to stop comparing ourselves because it's just so toxic. And it's so unfortunate because it really I think weighs heavily on people. Even though our rational brains most of us are like, okay, come on, this is dumb. Why am I trying to compare myself to that person? My situation is different. There's this different, but it's like human nature. Oh, yeah. And that's the thing you're not when you're, you know, you're scrolling through your Instagram or your Facebook feed, you're not in, you know, switched on rational mode, you're in relaxed looking at stuff mode. So you do you use, that's your first reaction is to go to that, oh, how come? I can't do that? Or how come she can do that? Or, you know, and then yeah, you might think about it later and go, Oh, this is the list of reasons why perhaps, you know, but yeah, we will we go to it? You mentioned that you're interested in mental health issues. Do you find that that a lot of issues with around people's mental mental health comes from this kind of bombardment of social media and the comparisons and that kind of stuff? I do? I absolutely do. And, you know, again, I'm the mom of two children. And I think back to that time, which was not long ago, it was in my children's lives, when they didn't have this influence, they didn't have this gateway, into a world of other kids their age doing doing all these things. And you know, they didn't have the ability to see the, the birthday party or the bar mitzvah, or the event that they weren't invited to, you know what I mean? Yeah, you can now and, you know, they couldn't get harassed. In this way. It was like, back in the day, when you went to school and you got bullied on the playground, which was bad enough. Now, it's like, there's nowhere in the world you can't get bullied, because you've got, you know, this vehicle that allows that to happen, right in your hand all the time. So I think, again, it's like, you know, I keep using social media, and technology as kind of the catch all for why so many things have escalated. But it's in all fairness, like it is it exists and, and impacting kids mental health is definitely one our mental health to forget about just kids, but it's just as bad, you know, for us to see the, you know, the the girls trip that a whole bunch of the moms, you know, went on, and you didn't go or the big garden party that someone had or, you know, day on the boat that you weren't invited to, it's, you know, it's impossible to ignore it. I think that it depends on who you are. And it depends on how seriously you take that, being bombarded with that all the time. But, I mean, look at the suicide rates in young children right now in adolescent and teenage children. And it's startling, and it's going up. And, you know, every other day, you turn on the news, and you hear about a child who was cyber bullied, and they jumped off a bridge and you hear about a child, you know, who was shamed, you know, who was shamed because of their size? Or, you know, something, you know, that it's, there's bigotry, there's, like, every negative thing in the world can flow through your phone just as easily as every positive thing, and our kids are right there on the other side of it. So I think it's, it's absolutely had a really negative impact. And it's, it's sad. It's sad, and I don't know, you know, aside from putting things like parental controls in place, and really just understanding what your kids are looking at when you're younger kids are a part of that even even as they navigate it and start to be part of it and grow into it. Like we've got to, we've got to really be super focused on what they're focused on. It's too easy to let a lot of the negativity slide Under our radar, and still reach them. And I think it's hard for some parents too, because because we didn't grow up in this world of what's happening to be actually actually aware of what is happening, because I mean, a lot of teenagers aren't, you know, super forthcoming with what's going on in their lives or what they're consuming on their phones. So yeah, to sort of, I don't know, yeah, I don't want to say educate yourselves, because that sounds really patronizing. But, you know, being aware talking to other parents and sort of finding out what sort of stuff your child could be into, or being exposed to, so you actually can help them out and put some boundaries in place, perhaps to sort of limit what they're what they're exposed to. Yeah, I don't I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say to say that I don't think it's patronizing to say that at all, I think it's necessary to say that and even more necessary to act on that, because we're that line of defense, it is our job when they aren't rational enough as young people and they're developing and, you know, those connections are all being made in their brains. It's up to us to create those boundaries. And to keep talking the same talk. And I don't want to say it's rhetoric, because it's not rhetoric, it's important. But it's one of those things as parents, especially young kids, that we have to just keep saying over and over again until you want to throw up and until your kids want to throw up because they're so sick of hearing it, but we keep saying it anyway. Yeah. I want to turn to still looking at social media as a little bit. But the something I really love to talk about guests as talk about with guests on my show is mum guilt and or mommy guilt or mom guilt, whatever you want to call it. What are your thoughts about that whole topic? Oh, wow, I have a lot of thoughts about mom guilt, I also at times have had plenty of mom guilt. It, it is a toxic emotion, because it keeps us from doing the things that I think we need to do. And instead causes us to do things that we think we're supposed to do, like keep our young children busy from the second that they open their eyes in the morning, until the second thing go to bed at night. And we are so afraid of and so consumed by guilt, if we don't have, you know, a four course dinner on the table every night, if we don't have the house clean, if we don't have activities planned, if we don't have social events, if we like all all these things in that and this, this ties in all of this mom guilt ties very heavily into the whole comparison issue. Because we're all looking at everything that everybody around us is doing. And I'm not just talking about on social media, I'm talking about just like in general, we're looking at what everybody is doing around us. And we're feeling such intense feelings of guilt because we're not doing what that family is doing. Or we're that mom is doing and you know, and we're feeling guilty about things that we shouldn't feel guilty about. Like if you love your child, and you're dedicated to supporting your child and inspiring and encouraging your child and, you know, and you're not gonna let your child go hungry, like it's okay, if they have a bowl of cereal for dinner. It's okay, if the laundry is not done. It's okay. If you didn't get dressed today. It's okay. Like, that's the stuff we have to start emphasizing more than the whole idea of checking off every single box or else our day sucks, and we accomplished nothing. And we're guilt ridden because we didn't accomplish all the things that we feel like we're supposed to do. So it's a huge issue. And, and again, you know, it also is another issue similarly in the way that more and more people are starting to show their real selves on social media, which I love. And saying, I'm actually not okay. I'm actually a disaster, and I'm this and I'm bad and that's owning it and being honest In the same way, I think moms are starting to recognize that this whole guilt thing is complete bullshit that they shouldn't buy into it, because it's just going to chip away at your soul and your confidence and your self esteem. Because if you don't, and this goes back to perfection, if you don't, if you don't do everything the way you think you're supposed to do it, now you're riddled with guilt. And now you're in capacity. So it doesn't know what yeah, it just serves no purpose to anybody does. It's such a, it's a horrible thing. I hate it. I just think it's a load of crap. It is even just makes me so cross. It's. Yeah. And I just want to hug all the moms all at once every moment, like, let go. Yes. Yep. Yeah, I had, I had some ladies on, I had like, four, four mums on at one time for a Mother's Day special few weeks ago. And they one of the ladies had written a letter to mum guilt. And it was like, Mum, guilt, you're a bitch, I need to read that it was really good. Really. And that's the thing, like, as well as like, not, like admitting that we're not going great admitting that, you know, I don't want to say a failure, I'm putting that in air quotes. But you know, that it actually is normal to not be doing everything, as well as you had hoped, like, these expectations that we feel like, we've got to do it this way. You know, for whatever reason, because we've been judged, or because someone told us, we should do that this way. Or, for whatever reason, you know, and to say, I actually, I don't buy into that stuff, you know, it's a really, it's a really powerful thing to say, and then to share with other mums. And they might go, oh, actually, I was feeling a bit like that. But I didn't know whether I should feel like that, you know, doubting yourself. And creating this whole movement of this, you know, giving the middle finger to monkeys. I know, I love that. And I appreciate and support that so much. Because I think that so much of what motivates us to, to, to, to reach a place of guilt, or to compare ourselves to other people in the first place comes from, directly from our ego, as we're doing this thing that so many millions of people before us have done and so many people alongside us are doing. And there's this internal voice that says like, Oh, of course, like, I can totally do it, like they do it, like I should be able to do that. Right? I should be able to have six kids, and also run a business and also have a like, a Better Homes and Gardens house and look amazing. And besides to and, you know, it goes on and on and on. But, and I think that when we can't, or don't do the things that, you know, we feel are the things that should be done. You know, that's, that's when it chips away at us. And, and it kind of breaks us it breaks our spirit, because then it's like, well, how come they can do it? I can't show that I'm failing at it. Yeah, that's the reason that we've we've got a hold up that, again, that perfection that everything's fine this facade of, you know, I see. Yeah. I really think people are getting more comfortable with that feeling of saying that, that they you know, not projecting the perfect world. I think I think we are getting better slowly. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's what I've been begging people to talk about now, for? Well, well over a decade. You know, I moderate a group on Facebook that I that I started now, it's been years, it's been several years ago. And it's on Facebook, it's a public group, and it's called the vomit booth. And it's just a place that marries kind of everything that I do in terms of, you know, writing and speaking and kind of philosophies of parenthood, the humanistic common sense views of parenthood, and I brought it to this place where it could have an interactive component and people could actually come into this group and talk about the good stuff and the bad stuff and bond together and share together and the idea of it being a place where you could kind of like hurl out vomit up whatever it is, that's that's troubling you or holding you back and that people someone's there to hold your hair back while you let it out. And you can listen and vent and, and some incredible conversations over the past several years have come out because it's a place that I really encourage people to like If you're not okay, if you're struggling with XY or z, if you feel inadequate, like, let it out, share it, start that conversation, because I guarantee you that there are 10 million other people feeling the same way. But nobody wants to be like, nobody wants to be the first one to talk in the elevator. Yeah, like, just but once somebody does, everybody starts talking. So that's what we want to do. Yeah, that reminds me that analogy of the first one to talk when I in Australia, we have this thing called Moms groups where after you have your baby, they, they put you with complete strangers, they're just people that happen to have their child at the same time as you. So you put in with these people that you have nothing else in common with, apart from your baby came out at the same time you need. That's all you need. That's the common denominator. And I remember one of the first sessions we went to, and I was, you know, things were not going well. And everyone goes around the circle and says how they're going. And everyone seemed to be going really well. And I was sitting there thinking, why is everyone going so good? What is wrong with me? You know, what's wrong with my baby? Why am I struggling? And then, when it was my turn, I think I said something. I tried to make a joke like, Oh, I'm glad you're all going so great, because I'm not and then just My life sucks. Right now. I shared all the crap things about the no sleep and the sore boobs and we couldn't breastfeed. And when I broke the ice with that, that's when everyone started to be more honest. And it was like, Oh, thank God, like we can be honest. Yeah. Yeah, it's just yeah. That's what it takes. And then then, then everybody comes out of the woodwork. And then everyone's like, Oh, but wait, but me, but this, but that we're outdoing each other with worse stories. Exactly. And, and you know, not not to take the focus off of parenting, which is what I know we're spending so much time talking about to circle it back for a second to mental health. That is exactly. And this applies to children. And parents, obviously, it applies to mental health in the sense that once we start vocalizing are not being okay, or our struggle, or our fear, or whatever it is, once we put it out there, there is almost always going to be someone who will then connect with that, and then we'll have some kind of a similar experience or know someone or, or understand on a deeper level, and then it just, it's like self perpetuating, then all of a sudden, that dialogue starts and it's that's why it's so important what whatever space you're in, in the world, whether it's the mental health space, or the parenting space, or the marriage space. It's not communication, that can change everything that can elevate you from a place of silently suffering or feeling shame or being stuck to it elevates you to a place where okay, I'm not alone anymore. And other people know what I feel like and other people may have done some things can suggest some things that will, that will be useful to me. And that's why this there's so much incredible power in our shared experiences. But they do no one any good if we don't share them Yeah. Yeah, that mental health is at least interesting one, I think. People are really afraid to share that. It's like, the way I sort of compare like, if you've got a broken leg, you're not going to be scared to go to the doctor to say, Hey, could you fix my leg? But for some reason, we were so worried about being judged by I don't know, it's, it seems like we've we've failed somehow, but we're not actually in control of the, you know, the chemical imbalances in our brains. But we've sort of learned, I guess, from previous generations that that's something you don't talk about. And, you know, I had an experience where I had quite bad postnatal depression with both my children. And I shared I did a podcast years ago with a mental health group in my town. And then that then snowballed into it was like a group of community people that were known in the community members that that would be identified, sort of through whether they like it as me as a singer. There was like, people that own shops like just pick faces that you know, in the community, and we ended up with these great big banners. They put us on these banners and put us all around town with the little like cute barcode scan, listen and listen to the podcast. And my dad said to me, are you sure you want everyone to know what happened to you? I said, Yes, that I do. This is exactly why I'm doing it. Because I want people to know that it is normal is nothing to be ashamed of. It's like normalizing this discussion around mental wellness or mental unwellness. And I don't know, it's like, yeah, that generation, it's like, Oh, don't don't talk about that sort of stuff, you know? Well, we had no, you're right. 1,000%. Right. And I love the fact that you did that, because that is what we should all be doing. And I know, it's a lot harder for some than others. There are a lot of people out there who are, you know, very introverted, and very uncomfortable sharing. But the fact of the matter is that there has always been such a deep dark stigma associated with mental illness. I mean, I think back to, you know, another generation before me to my parents generation, though, I lost my father to suicide when I was 10 years old, thank you. And I didn't find out about his suicide until I was in my mid 40s. So 35 years later, I found out about it. Not at all, because my mother felt like it was shameful, had nothing to do with it whatsoever, my mother was just strictly trying to protect me, I had already lost my person to have told me at that time, when I was 10 years old, that it was his decision would have shattered me beyond repair. So in that sense, I'm so grateful that she did that. But it had nothing to do with a stigma. But still, at that time, and for so many decades later, until just really in recent history, it isn't, wasn't something you talked about, it was something that automatically, by default, gave you kind of a black mark, and made you feel less than or made you appear less than even if it didn't, it did in your own head because of the narrative that was associated with it. And, you know, it's like the same reason why parents were so reluctant to say that their children had learning disabilities, or that their children had mental health issues. And same thing, they didn't, they didn't want that stigma to be attached, but it's only in doing what you did, or what I began to do, which is to talk in every space I possibly can about my father's story, to help encourage other people to share their story, or their trauma or their grief or their, their illness, because that's how we change. That's how we normalize it. And that's how we change that narrative. You know, I think of it in in so many different ways, when I think of what happened to my father, and how it's impacted me in my life. You know, there's the loss that I felt as a 10 year old, then there's the loss that I felt, so I have grieved his death now twice in my life, you know, once his child and once as a grown, married mother of two children. And, you know, I think about the power that's within that story, both as a child and a survivor of suicide loss, and someone who has had to kind of travel that arc of forgiveness. And I also think about it in terms of like, when I really found out the truth, my girls were teenagers, I had one, just entering high school, I had one who was graduating from high school, and, you know, my oldest, has, has had mental health issues and has had anxiety and some depression and is very open about it. And, you know, getting help for it has changed your life, it's changed, you know, because as you said a little while ago, these are things it's like, if you were born, if you were born with six fingers on your hand, you would be someone who was born with six fingers on your hand, and that was beyond your control. And in that same exact way, like someone's born with a heart condition or someone God forbid, has cancer. It's, it is no different. The mental health challenges, issues, diagnoses, whatever you want to call them, that we have as human beings like that is that is beyond our control. And we need to be treated in the same way that you would treat someone with heart disease or cancer or whatnot or a broken leg. Yep. So yeah, my my, my goal at that time once I kind of arrived at a place of really, truly understanding why my father, I don't know the reason why I will never know the reason why. And that haunted me for a long time. It doesn't anymore. I just know that my father had so much mental illness that was undetected by anybody in our family, but he it was not being here anymore, whether it was for our benefit or his was the only solution. And so I've come to accept that but I've also accepted the fact that my father had so much gin netic like the genetic cocktail in my poor dad's body, from where he grew up and how he grew up, and the mental illness that existed in his family, like that's in my destiny that's in my children. And what really inspired me, I think, to start talking in general about it to my children in particular, was, like, you guys may not feel this way or that way now, or have these feelings or emotions or thoughts now, maybe when you're 22, maybe when you're 26, maybe when you're 30, maybe, you know, these, these things don't always surface immediately. And I wanted them to know like, look, this is, here's your DNA. Here's, here's what could be in your DNA. And here's what it might look like in you. Because here's what it looks like in him, I have certain tendencies or issues. I'm an empath. I feel everything as though I'm grabbing on to like an electrified wire, all the good and the bad in my life house, and I feel it like I'm holding a live wire. And I know, that's how it manifested in me, but I wanted to have that conversation with my kids so that they would know and be able to have an open line of communication. Like, I'm okay, I'm feeling weird. I need to talk to someone I knew. So, yeah. Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that it's worth. It's yeah, thank you. It's really great. So that, that you're able to share it. Because like you said, there's so many people that can't for whatever reason, and that sort of reason why I feel like I sort of want to help those people in my own way by sharing my story, because maybe they can't, but that, like you said before, you know, they might take something from it, they might go, oh, I can empathize with that I, I experienced that. Or I understand what you mean by that. And that might give them the little nudge to, to reach out and do what they need to do. Yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. Identity is another thing that I really love talking about this, you know, that we're, we're a woman, we're having this amazing life. We're doing all these things, and then we become a mother. And then it seems that our sole purpose is then to, you know, be a mother, that we might lose other components of ourselves that we had three children, or all? Yeah, yeah. So Oh, and yeah, I've spoken to a lot of people through these podcasts. And there's so many varying degrees of experience with that, which is wonderful. Because, you know, we're all different in that it's great to share. Have you got some thoughts about that? Topic? Yeah, yeah, I do have a lot of thoughts, a lot of odds, a lot of experience with it. Yeah, I mean, I was definitely lost for a period of time, for sure. In my life. Probably around the time that I chose to stay home, my husband and I agreed, you know, that, that I would stay home. He was, you know, the primary breadwinner at the time. And, and it made sense, just economically, that I would be the one. And I was in that place that you talked about, like that incredible place of, Oh, I know exactly what my purpose is. My purpose is those two little humans and, and teaching them and growing them and nurturing them and loving them and doing everything for them. And you get lost in that place. And I'm not saying that that's not a beautiful place, and you have children, and obviously you have children to be devoted to those children and raise them and whatnot. But as I think we've all realized, over the past, I would say probably five years or so 10 years or so, maybe just even five self care is something self care and preserving or creating our own identity simultaneously, is so necessary, it is imperative that we do that. And so many of us just kind of pack up our former identity, and just put it in a little box and put it in the back of the closet. And that's where it stays. And we're so you know, laser focused on our kids. That then all of a sudden, and it happens all of a sudden, you know, it is gradual, but then it's not because all of a sudden you're at that point where you're like, well, they don't need me at all, for almost anything except maybe some cash from time to time. And laundry and food. So, and then all of a sudden you're like What the hell am I What am I supposed to do now? Like, where do I go? What do I do and, and it's really hard. And I was definitely in that space. And what really did help me was kind of this organic, tripping and falling into this life within the school system that I had. And that became a path that felt right to me for so many years. And for so many reasons. You know, and then I had a chance to, you know, write books for a living and do what I'm doing now. And it evolved, but it was only because I basically, like pulled on my big girl pants and said, I, I have to have something that is for me, I have to figure out what that is, and who that is. And you know, and honor what I need for my life. Because I've just spent the last, you know, 20 something years, giving my children what they needed. And the more attention that I started paying on myself. And the more I did for the benefit of my own growth, and the more I prioritized that the healthier I was everywhere else in my life, like bottom line, and it was work. It was working, and it continues to be work. But it's such powerful, unnecessary work. Hmm. You know, so lately, That's it, isn't it? Yeah, that's something that I, I could not exist without things for myself, honestly, I just go, like, go more mental than I am now. No, I get it, I get it have to have, it's just, ah, I don't know. I, it's so it is so necessary. And you know, it's interesting, like, like, I was saying before, like, I couldn't, I couldn't be a stay at home mom, like I just, I have so much respect for for moms that do that, because I just couldn't do it. You know, and we're all different in what we need. And, and that kind of stuff. I just Yeah, I don't know. But first of all, there's nothing I love better than a good Blab. That's, you know, that's where all the best ideas and you know, and experiences come from our blabbing. But like, I just have such respect for for all the different varieties of parenting that there are out there, like you've got the stay at home mom, or you've got the mom that those the hybrid, or you've got the mom that goes into the office every day or, you know, and every thing in between. And, you know, there's, there's just so much credit, I think to be given, for people who understand, like, this is where I'm really good. This is where I'm really great. And this is where I need to make sure that a lot of my attention is focused, and but it's also over here too. So it's like, you know, it's just it, we're constantly building on ourselves. And, and, and I love that there's so much inspiration for doing it in so many different ways. And there isn't one way that's, that's better or more accomplished than any other way. They're just great examples. And that just inspires me when I see that. Yeah. And it kind of this, this, someone's going off on a tangent never it kind of makes me it makes me sad for a lot of sets the word, but it Yeah, it does. It makes me sad for for previous generations of women whose role it was exclusively to be a mother, you know, like, there wasn't a choice. It was like, when you got pregnant, you left work, because you had to give the jobs to the single women, right? When they got married, they had to quit their jobs. You know, just all the things that women would have wanted to do. You know, and if they did do it, they were judged so harshly for, you know, doing the wrong thing. And putting that in air quotes again. You know, just the opportunities that we have now, because of the work that previous generations have done to get us to this point is tremendous. Because I just think if I hadn't lived in that era of my grandmother, yeah, I would. I would know, you and I would have gone on an island somewhere. Like another community where we could do anything we wanted because i It's funny, I often think about that my daughter, my oldest and I seem to fall into this conversation all the time about different periods of time, where we felt she she would have preferred living during like, caveman era for something she's got lots of wrist very funny, lots of reasons why, but with that I don't need to go into but that was like her period of time. And I, you know, I would have loved to have lived I think during the 60s. I mean, I was a child of the 60s but I was an infant. I would have liked to have had that experience because it was such an explosive period of time in the world. But I also think that you I don't think I could have survived it just like you like, I know, like, I would have known if I was the person I am today that back then I would have been like, Oh, hell no, like, I'm gonna work. No, like equal salary equal opportunity. I'm gonna work from home, my husband's gonna raise the kid, you know, and I think I made it would have made a lot of enemies back then because I just wouldn't have tolerated it. But yeah, we owe a huge debt of gratitude to those, you know, those pioneers who came before us for sure. Absolutely. stuff without them. Oh, yeah. See, even like, when I watch, I really love period dramas. I can't even think like the Jain is and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, you just think those those skills there are in? What's that one that's on the British and, you know, you get a taste for it. There's one of the daughters, who just, you know, wants to do our own thing doesn't want to get married, you know, you just think how much of that would have gone on. But no one would have had a choice. It's just you had to do this, you had to marry this bloke for money, because it kept your family going, you know, all the sacrifices that women would have made to think Christ at night. Just, it's, it's really disturbing. Like, read it. i Yeah, it's disturbing. And I also feel like such deep sadness that so many generations of women had to live such a pressed lives, and we're so limited and these brilliant, capable humans, were forced to do like, one of three things. Either you were going to be a teacher, or you were, you know, a mother or a homemaker or that was it. And, um, yeah, we we've, we've definitely come a long way. And, you know, I'm excited to see how much further we can go. But like, I'm just really grateful that I'm kind of living in the period of time that I'm living right now. Yeah. I would not have made it yet. You, so you mentioned your daughter there. Briefly, I wanted to ask, as a mom of two girls, is it important for you to sort of role model the fact that as a mom, you can do anything you want? That? You can? You can? Yeah, the sky's the limit, basically. Yeah. Yeah. That's always been incredibly important to me. And I think that the reason why it's, it's so deeply embedded in me is because of my own mother, and because of what my own mother has both gone through and accomplished in in her life. I mean, my mother, you talk about, like what people were supposed to do at certain times, you know, in history, my mother, when she went to school, went to high school was, was just such a strong and capable student she loved, she loved school, she loved the whole learning process. But she came from a family that was a very lower income family, everybody worked, and she wanted to go off to college, they couldn't afford college. So as soon as she graduated with honors from high school, she went to work with my grandmother. And so, you know, then my mother got married and worked a part time job in a nursing home. And my all of all of my experiences with you know, when I think of strong women, it all traces back to what my mother did. My mother was became a widow when she was 40. She had never had a college degree. She had to raise now a family by herself, a child by herself live in a home by herself. And my mother went back to school, six months after my father passed away, went back to college for five years at night, got her degree, worked, got a good job, you know, was the most present and hands on parent and it was because of that, like, I saw that. I saw that, you know, my mother and I used to do homework together in her bedroom at four and 5am in the morning, because that's the only time she could do it. She wanted to do it in a way that it wouldn't disrupt our dynamic. And so I started doing that with her and it just she and she alone was the one that that proved to me that like the sky is the limit. You can do anything that you set your mind to that women are so resilient. Humans are so resilient and I always wanted my daughters to feel that way. So it's, you know, when I started getting opportunities to do the things that I really wanted to do, like, I wanted to be on the radio, I wanted to write books, I, you know, I wanted to put myself out there, it was scary as hell, because, you know, you put content out there on a regular basis, and you know, that not everybody receives what you put out there well, and I was like, nope, gonna, gonna go gonna go ahead and do it. And as a result, you know, my, I've watched my daughters grow into their independence and want to just kind of, like, grab life by the throat and say, here I come. And it's beautiful. And it's, it's necessary, and if it doesn't come from us, it's gonna be a lot harder for them to be wired that way in their life. So that's it, isn't it? Yeah, when they get from us, and, and my husband too, is, is has always been so is, you know, inspiring in that way, and supportive and, you know, has built us up and motivated us and encouraged us to, you know, and supported us to get out there and do all the things. You know, so having those positive influences really makes a huge impact. Yeah, that's it is it? It's like they, if they grow up with that, that that positive messaging from the beginning, it's like, that's, they're gonna take that through their lives and keep passing it on. And, you know, that just keeps rolling on all that. All that good stuff. Yeah, yeah. Something I've just started talking to moms about, I'm gonna make it an official topic, because I'm getting really interested in this lately. It's funny how like, like, you're talking before how you get led in certain ways, and you do different things that you might have been planning. Same happens with, like, the topics I talk about, they sort of evolve over time. And one thing that keeps coming up is this, the value, a big thing is through the pandemic, when things got shut down, as particularly in Australia, you know, we had the restriction on movements between our states, but our sports people, mainly sports men, were able to basically do whatever they liked, or the football and the soccer or continued, but the arts and anything sort of creative, like performance, you know, the shows, all that sort of stuff, that all got shut down. And that sort of is sort of sparked a bit of a, a conversation or a thoughts around the value that we place on the arts, and then that sort of snowballed into the value that we place on a mother that is a creator, you know, is it? Is it okay for her to do that? Because that's not a roll. Putting that in air quotes again. Yeah, you know, she's meant to raise children. So how do we view the mother? That is the Creator? Do you have any thoughts on that? I've just spread me sweat on you. Yeah, no, I like I like when people throw questions like that at me that I don't see coming. You know, I think that it goes back to what we talked about a little while ago, that we, we and I say we, in terms of women, mothers have had to fight for our position. And, and it's been a very challenging fight. And, you know, I think by default, we, you know, when you think of parents, you naturally just automatically assume that the mother is going to be that prime caregiver. And that that has to be kind of the ultimate responsibility that, you know, that overshadows any other thing that that woman may be that you know, that she she may be a professional, she may be an artist, she may be a creator, any of those things, like, we've got to shove all that aside for 18 or so years. And we've got to focus on on, you know, the mom being the mom. I think, I think it's trending, but I don't know what you're seeing in Australia now that we're, I don't want to say that we're out of a pandemic, because we are by no means out of it. But I think that you know, I don't want to put it in these terms, but I think it is just, it's just but in these terms by default, you talk about like, oh, well, it was okay for the footballers and the men to keep doing what they were doing. Well, they were making money. It was commercial, they were making money. And I'm not to say that artists like I know that you're a singer and a songwriter, and you know, and those who are kind of deep within the arts aren't making money but they sure as hell aren't making money on the same scale, as you know, professional teams and things like that. So I think that they just got a free pass. Yeah. And we still had to stay kind of, you know, had to be kept in this role of, Oh, you guys have to be there to take care of everything else. While you know, well, well, you know, the money is being made. And, you know, there's, you know, the energy surrounding this, these, these sports and, and what comes from them has to be supported, you guys have to do the rest because by virtue of you know, parenting, I mean, it's you know, it's not a stretch to say that the majority of caregivers are moms are women. Not that there aren't plenty of stay at home dads and caregivers who are dads, but that's our role. And we have to just keep kind of breaking out of that. That, that place of that identity. And, and I think it all goes, it travels right back to the whole, you know, self care and identity conversation that we had a few minutes ago. Where's it we can't tolerate that anymore. That's the thing. We have to say, our art or our craft or our inspiration, or our creativity is just as important. And just as as necessary, and we have to fight for it. And it sucks that we have to do so much active promoting it and fighting for it. But we do and we have to do that collectively. And that's that's how we change that tide. Yeah. You know, your thoughts about it? Yeah, the thing that, yeah, then the monetary thing is a big one, isn't it? Because we obviously live in a capitalist society. So money drives pretty much everything. And that's something that has really been annoying me lately, too. It's like, because because what you're doing doesn't have a similar monetary value to what someone else is doing. It's just automatically not given the credit that the other thing is given. And that's something that annoys me. Oh, and, and I think it annoys me too. And I'm glad that we're talking about it, because it's by virtue of conversations like this, like whoever it is, that's listening to us right now. If they share that feeling, well, then that's, then there's a domino effect there. And then this conversation extends beyond you and I and extends beyond the podcast, and then it gets other people talking and gets other people aware. And then there's, then we have to kind of collectively not tolerate it anymore, recognize it? And then start talking about it so that it can be addressed. And it can change. Absolutely, yeah. And I think an example that I always go to, with this show, whenever we start talking about value, monetary value, and how society generally, judges creativity, or the arts. There was a, I'm gonna get this story wrong every time I feel like I change it every time I tell it. But one of my guests gave me an example of how her and her sister in law both had young children that the grandma was going to be looking after, while the moms were working. The grandma would look after the sister in law's children, because she was going to a proper job in a proper office, putting their near quotes again. But she wouldn't look after the artists children, because she was just fluffing it out. She wasn't actually working. And I'm praying that air quotes get. And that's just, I mean, that's could be potentially a generational thing too. But oh, sure, for sure. Yeah, it's just that kind of view of the arts and mother's creating, it just gives me the sheets and really, you know what it is? I think it's not it's like it's there's a stigma about it, that you're like taking your one in a million shot. Like if you think of, of someone who's a singer, songwriter, you know, you're doing that as a as a child or young person, you'd come home and tell your parents I'm not going to conventional following the conventional path and going to college. I'm going to pursue my degree in acting or my my acting, passion or my music, passion or my songwriting, passion, whatever it is. And I think that because it there's such a minority of people who become successful on a level that people equate with success, like you have to have like an album out to be successful. You have to have a book out to be successful. You know what I mean? There's so much. There's so many different degrees of success within that but I think that that it's it's based on? Well, it's not really legitimate, like, you're just, you know, you're just writing, you know, some some fluffy little songs here or there or you're, you know, you're painting some pretty little pictures here and there that there's no real substance or value or, or monetary piece that you can attach. So that it's like, it's it legitimized. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I think that's where a good deal of the issues come from. And, you know, you think of these proper tracks, college leads to job leads to financial security. Well, people are only now just recognizing that that is not the only way. That is not the only path that is not the only measure of success like that, that that dollar sign cannot, cannot be attached to the word success anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, it just reminded me of this conversation, my son, my oldest son's 14, and he's just having to start choose his subjects for next year school. So this, you know, the pathway to whatever job he wants to do, they're starting the subjects now. And I keeps my husband's a financial planner. So humans are completely different brains, the way we think about a thing. And I keep saying to him, just do something that you enjoy doing, you know, find the thing you're passionate about, work out, if there's job around that, you know, if there's not one, make one, you know, what I mean? Like, find something that you love to do. And then my husband's like, I'll make sure you get enough money. So it's like, yeah, covering it from both sides. Yeah, that's, it's hard. Because I mean, look, we can't ignore the fact that bills have to be paid. Our kids at some point, down the line are going to have to be self sufficient. They're going out, they're going to need to live on their own, or they're going to have to buy food and gas and, and, you know, support all the things that, you know, are involved in living independently. But it's like, it's it just bums me out, when we attach like, well, you have to do you have to have a six figure job to do that well to mean that, that you are successful. And it's, it's crap. And it's setting our kids up, to be really disillusioned about doing what they really want. It's, you know, it's setting them up to believe that they shouldn't do what they really want. They should do what they really have to do. Yeah, I mean, we do have to keep it real in the sense that our children do have to learn how to support themselves. But at the same time, too, we can't, we can't make them believe that, you know, there's only one way to do that. And there's only one level at which they should aspire to do that. Yeah, that's it, isn't it. The other thing that I think is changing when we're talking about money, and, and things, there's the whole culture, I don't know. I certainly noticed over here, but it's changing now, but this culture on social media of this hustle, and you've got to always be doing something and, you know, I can't think of any, like, Girlboss and all these sort of hashtags. And it's like, you have to be driving really hard. And it's just, it's exhausting. Like, you just think when do you have time when, like, this self care, you know, actually, resting rest is not a reward for doing rest is, you know, should be something that we do naturally, because our bodies aren't supposed to go full bore all the time. You know, that culture around that, I feel like is, is definitely shifting, which is really good. It definitely is. I mean, you know, there's definitely this population that believes, especially these millennials, who believe like, you've got to have a side hustle. And you've got to also have a side hustle. And you've got to be in constant motion, and you've got to be that much more driven and that much more successful and that much more capable. And, and I think that's just coming from a place like in particular with women, it just comes from everything that you and I have already talked about in terms of like, we're kind of fighting for a position we're fighting still, to be taken seriously to be viewed equally, to be respected to, you know, and so it's, it's almost like we just, you know, we have to just go at it a lot harder to be taken even more seriously. And that's unfortunate that we that we kind of innately feel that way Yeah, it's just, it's unfortunate. And I hope that as as time goes on, and we begin to kind of normalize success, you know, you know, across across the gender spectrum, like it's, it's, you know, be just as successful as a man or a woman anything. That's, you know, it's going to take time for, I think, us to let go of that, that internal drive. Because I think it's burning a lot of people out, it's really hurting people out. You know, and I think it's causing people to be, you know, to put themselves in positions that they might not want to put themselves in, because they, you know, or do things in terms of like, jobs and opportunities, just because they feel like they have to versus they want to. Yeah, so hopefully those two scales will eventually balance. Hmm. Yeah. composure of hustle the way we do? Oh, yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like, it's funny, like, all this stuff that is ingrained in us as, as kids and growing up like, you always had, like college, like we call it University over here, but it doesn't have the same I don't think has the same sort of end goal. Like for you guys, like every, I'm making an assumption, but on TV shows and movies, it's like, everyone goes to college. Over here, uni is not, we don't all go to uni, it's like, if you get a job out of school, that's almost the best thing you can do. But I remember, like, like, my dad worked really long hours. You know, I think a lot of us grew up with that, that nine to five, or, you know, eight to six sort of culture around you, your parents or your your dad working. And it's like, that's what you're supposed to do, you know, and then all of a sudden, you go, Oh, actually, I don't really like this. And it's like, you start to no question stuff and see what people around you are doing. I remember the first time I realized that, I had a friend who was only working part time. And like this was when I was, you know, just out of school working as like, how can you do that? Are you supposed to be working full time? This is like, No, it was a foreign concept. From what I'd grown up, we'd say, you know, again, these little changes. And, yeah, well, it's like the whole millennial mindset. Now. And I talk about this a lot with my older daughter in particular, because even though there's only three years in between our girls, it was a, it's a big enough gap that my oldest mindset about certain things is quite different than my youngest. And they're both very, very hard workers. You know, my oldest is in graduate school right now to be a teacher. And she's also working full time and my youngest works full time in the school system. But it's funny, like, you look at the millennial, the millennial mind nowadays, and they're all like, I don't want to be an I'm not going to be in an office, I'm not going to take that job that I'm applying for, if it means I actually have to go into an office or if it means I have to travel, they're like, no, no, I'm really focusing on my work life balance right now. Like that whole generation is not having it at all. And I think too, that you know, and this goes back to one of the, like, if you have to attach a silver lining to what's happened pandemic wise, it's allowed us to do so many things from home that we otherwise just that weren't allowed before. And so it's brought the world much closer, it's made everyone and everything much more accessible as the upside. And, you know, I just look at the way that my children are now and all of these millennials are like, yeah, um, so I've been working from home for like, the last 18 months, and I'm really not planning on continuing my company, if my company is not going to allow us to do that, you know, it's just so funny. You know, and now they're all like, converting vans, and living van life and working remotely from like, deserts and, you know, and, and beaches. And, and I absolutely know that if I had been born now, if I was my 25 year old age, I would 1,000% be working remotely, I would have like a Ford van that was converted, and I would be like on the coast of Australia somewhere down the road from you, and I take home from a van and you know, and and they're they're not settling for that so they things so I guess the reason why I'm saying all that about my own kids is because it's just proof that that that tide has changed. thing that they're prioritizing. They're worse. And they're prioritizing that, that work life balance and that self care a lot more in this generation. And they're not tolerating the idea of the whole, like, nine to five and the way that it used to be like, he's so good, it's wonderful. Yeah, that's interesting about during the pandemic, like all this stuff that people would sit on, that's never possible. You can't do this, and you can't do that. And it's like, actually, you can. It's wonderful. You know, and I don't know, we learned a lot. I mean, it was horrible, still is a horrible thing that, you know, a lot of families and people have gone through, which is been really not very nice. But there has been some positives come out for, for the whole of humanity, I think, looking at things differently and challenging. Yeah. And it's that old saying, like, you know, why do we do it this way? Because we've always done it that way, you know, that, that? And I think that's a real sort of, I don't know, almost a masculine mindset. And I want to say that it sounds nasty, but no, reminds me of something my dad would say. Yeah, no, I get it. I understand why you would say that. It's, it's just because historically, that has been the mindset. That's the way things were for generations. You know, think of the hierarchy who it was that instituted those ideas and those values and you're not wrong. Yeah, I don't want to blame all the boys but we're finger pointing at you guys history. Have you got anything you want to share that you're working on at the moment or future projects coming up? Anything you want to give a shout out to and share? Where people can find you online? And that kind of stuff? Yeah, sure. I'd love to. I think I mentioned a little earlier that one of the things that's got a lot of my focus right now is mental health, and suicide prevention and awareness. And that that actually slides right into the project that I'm working on right now, which is another book that really uses my father's story, the story of my my father suicide, as just a vehicle for starting conversations and for helping people just through my own personal experience, helping people kind of travel that that road to forgiveness, if they're a survivor of suicide loss. And so that's, that's something that I'm kind of deep in the weeds with right now, doing a ton of work on and then working to be a crisis counselor with a crisis agency here in, in the United States, that I'm actually very, very excited about because that kind of all goes hand in hand. So I'm working on that. And just continuing to do lots of speaking and writing about parenting, just the way that I'm doing now on all the outlets here in the States and around, you know, around the world that that help families be happy. So that's what I'm working on. And you can find me anywhere. I mean, you can find me, my website is Lisa sugarman.com. And everything I'm working on is kind of in that one spot. Instagram is Lisa underscore Sugarman, the Lisa Sugarman on Facebook, you can join the vomit booth if you search the vomit booth on Facebook we can I will I will let you in you can just curl it all up oh definitely going to check that out. I'm really really interested in that. That sounds really good. I want all of your moms in your in your community in your area in your part of the world I want to know what's you know, what's affecting you and bringing all this it's like a clown car you can I'll millions of moms and dads and stuff you. I love it. Thank you so much for coming on later. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been a really great conversation. I I've loved I've loved every minute of it too. And it's so fun for me to just to especially to hear what's going on in places where I you know, I don't I don't frequent I don't I know know what, you know what's happening in your part of the world the way You do. And so it's it's often fun to find out, you know that some things are different and some things are similar. And at the end of the day like we still It proves my point that no matter where you are and what you're doing as a mom, it's like, we're, you know, we're all part of the same community and the same family here, and we're all dealing with the same stuff. So it's fun to be able to come together and share that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. And thank you for sharing so openly. And honestly, I really appreciate it. And I know my listeners will appreciate it, too. So yeah, thanks so much. Pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Rose Dela Cruz New Zealand photographer S2 Ep37 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Rose Dela Cruz is a photographer from Auckland New Zealand and a mum of 1 daughter. Rose moved from her home country of the Philippines when she was 11 years old with her mum. Rose began her photography life in 2012 as a second shooter assisting at weddings as a bit of a hobby. At that time, she had no plans to peruse it as a career, just enjoying taking photos when her and her husband travelled. But when her daughter was born in 2020 she fell in love with capturing her. The seeds were sown and Rose began her photographic business, specializing in relaxed, candid and un-posed outdoor shoots, utilizing the surrounding beaches and “the golden hour” (about an hour before the sunset). Her favourite subjects are couples, expectant mothers and families. And she loves to make connections with her subjects and take time observing them, particularly the children. Rose also has a background in dancing, music, playing the guitar. She has an intense desire to create, in whatever form that my take. Rose's instagram https://www.instagram.com/journeybyrosephotography/ and new website www.journeybyrosephotography.com Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/artofbeingamum_podcast/ Music used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=yJPCGKTpSqyXh_l3zQfvDQ When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health and how children manifest in their hours. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bowhunting people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for tuning in today. It really is a pleasure to have you. My guest today is Rose Dela Cruz. Rose is a photographer from Auckland in New Zealand, and a mother of one daughter. Rose moved from her home country of the Philippines when she was 11 years old with her mum. She began her photography life in 2012 as a second shooter, assisting at weddings as a bit of a hobby. At that time, she had no plans to pursue it as a career, just enjoying taking photos when her and her husband traveled. But when her daughter was born in 2020, she fell in love with capturing her and the seeds were sown. Rose began her photographic business specializing in relaxed, candid and unposed outdoor shoots, utilizing the surrounding beaches and the golden hour, that hour before the sunset. Her favorite subjects are couples expectant mothers and families and she loves to make connections with her clients and take the time to observe them, particularly the children. Rose also has a background in dancing, music and playing the guitar. She has an intense desire to create in whatever form that may take. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Welcome along raise. Thanks so much for coming on today. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. Yeah, so you're over in New Zealand. In Auckland. Yeah. So what's your weather like there at the moment? Are you your summer is still in summer? Yes. Summer It's so hot. So humid. Reminds me of Philippines when when we were living there. Didn't you step out outside of the mall or somewhere cool. And it's just it hits here, you know? Yeah. Yeah. You came out of that air conditioned and you're like, Oh, yeah. Oh, dear. So how long have you been in New Zealand for you mentioned during the Philippines? Oh, we I came here when we came here. My mum and I when I was 11. So not really long time ago. And now I'm I'm 31. So 2020 years? Yeah. 20 years? Yep. Yeah. Pretty much pretty much grew up here. Yeah. Yeah. Very good. So tell me about your work. You're a photographer over there in New Zealand. Yeah. How long have you been out for? Um, I started back in 2012. But that was mostly as a hobby. I used to do, I used to be a second shooter for my friend down from 323 photography, and he does wedding photography. And I used to be a second shooter for him. So but it was mostly like I said, as a hobby. So I didn't really, you know, I, I didn't think I was gonna pursue it as a business. And so I had my baby. So for a long time, it was mostly you know, my when I got married my husband when we would travel. I will he would be the subject my photography, and then came along my baby. So she became the subject of my photography and I just fell in love with, you know, capturing her and I think I speak for most moms. When I say that once you have a baby, your cameras, your vet your videos are filled with that of your your children. Oh, absolutely. Do you so How old's your daughter? She's two. Yeah, right. Oh, fun time. So just trying to actually I know Oh, very talkative now. Yeah. It's a good age, though, isn't it when they can sort of they can, they can express their feelings to you a bit more. Yeah, there's a lot more. Yeah. Communications. Communication. Yeah. Which is, which is a relief because then, you know, she's able to she's not just crying all the time. And the more she's able to actually tell me what's bothering her or what she needs. So and as a mom, you know, you it's a relief to be able to provide exactly what you know. She's wanting and yeah, yeah, absolutely. So were you always sort of interested in photography? Like, did you grow up? Sort of surrounded? Yeah, artistic people or not? Well, I've always had the creative side, I've always loved like, dancing. Dancing is like, a part of me also. But right now, it's just not something that, you know, I've, I could, you know, spend time doing so growing up, like even art and stuff I've always loved creating. So in photography, you know, growing up with my friends, they we love taking photos of each other. But nothing like I said, growing up, nothing too serious. It was more of a hobby, but the more I, you know, I think it started when I first bought my DSLR which is, you know, like the, the big camera that I have, and it's, it's when I started to really, like started to learn about photography about composition. And like I said, doubt, my friend was a big part of that. He taught me a lot about photography. And being because I started in the wedding industry, it's there's a lot of detail to capture a lot of emotion, a lot of you know, it's, it's, there's a lot to learn from it. So it was a really huge part of my, how I develop my photography now. But now I I focus more on like families, expecting mums expecting parents, couples, and babies and toddlers. So that's where I kind of yeah, my passion grew into that. And yeah, I just love like watching the dynamics among families. Yeah, and children how they play and how they have so there's just so much joy like they find joy and everything and anything. So it's lovely to be able to capture that that innocence and just pure joy. Hmm. Yeah, that's it isn't like something we see is really mundane, or we take for granted. They're really drawn to something and they're like, fascinated by like tiny details. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. It's super interesting. Yeah. And I noticed I was looking on your Instagram feed you use the ocean a lot in your photos. Is that something that are connected to as well? Yeah, just the beach of I love the beach. I love going to the beach. My toddler loves the beach. I mean, if she while she sees the water she just kind of goes for it you know? And I had to kind of hold her in because otherwise she'll just keep going she loves so she it's there's just something about out another water that really calms me. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I guess you to your your subjects like you people that you've photography you're photographing, they probably quite relaxed too because it's you know, it's a space Yeah, most people feel comfortable in. They can just be themselves. Yeah, exactly. And that's it helps because because my style is more natural, more relaxed, it helps that ambience it helps set that tone. And I love doing it during sunset so I love I really love Golden Hour, which is about an hour before the sunset. That lighting is just because I use natural lighting in my in my photography. Even if I do indoors, I utilize natural lighting. So it's it's just there's something about that lighting during sunset. That's just so beautiful. Oh yeah, absolutely. And the funny thing is like, every, every time I do a sunset session, it's never the same. You think, you know, like, oh, the sunsets, you know, as the sunsets is the same lighting, but it's not it's just it's different. And it's that uniqueness. It's so beautiful. Yes, I love it. So even if two people have got like this roughly the same time, they're gonna look different then the same. Yeah, even the same place, same place, same time. Different, just different lighting. Yeah, it's cool, isn't it? It's really fascinating that people would love that too. Like, no one really wants to have exactly the same photos have a vision of what they what they'd like. And, but it turns out, not exactly the same. Even if it's similar. It's not exactly the same, which is, you know, it's lovely to see the differences sorry, forgive my lack of geographical knowledge. These are Auckland on the coasts. Now, well, we're kind of I have to, to be able to get to like the beaches. I have to drive quite a bit because we're like, I'm right. We're right in the center. I live in South Auckland, which the nearby beach like actual beach that I go to the west along the west coast is about maybe 15 minutes from here. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. And even the east coast beaches. It's about a safe half an hour. Yeah, right. Yeah. So your your though, hang on while I'm talking to you. I'm just going to bring him back up. Sorry. I'm really interested in when I talk to people I love to know them when the weather and all of a live. I'm like, I find it really fascinating. I see. So you're right up you're like right in. I say Oh, that would be cool place to be because you kind of like like you said you have access to Yeah, we're surrounded by beaches north. But yeah, in South Auckland, it's most like you have to do a better driving to get to. To the beaches. Yeah. But still, it's no it's not like, I don't know. It's not. It's not unaccessible you know, no, you can do it and it's not enraged. Yeah, that's the word. And like when when we were in Philippines, you have to drive six hours to a beach to make a trip out of it. It's not just and I think we're so blessed to be I were so blessed to be in New Zealand now where you know, you get to you could drive half an hour and get to a a wonderful beach, you know, a safe beach where the kids could play you know? Yeah, because not all people could have that. Oh, absolutely. I think I think when you're in a place like that you sort of take it for granted a little bit because he like it's so easy. But yeah, where I live I live well we're Brett 2530 minutes from the beach. But I also there's a really amazing swimming place about 20 minutes like on the way to the beach 20 minutes there. And it's called the little blue lake and it's this this naturally occurring like big like hole basically it's all got eight meter cliffs all around it and it's just this stunning place and we go there lately because it's been really hot we've been going there like every day I was just there last night for you. How lucky are we like we're in this amazing place it's 20 minutes down the road from our house like Yeah. Pretty special Yeah. So when you were pregnant were you still working doing your use second? What was sorry? What did you call it? Second cam second shooter. second shooter. Yeah, shooter. Yeah, we used to active taking photos but not so much. I think I stopped doing second shooting for weddings when I got married. It just after that things just got busy. You know, you adjust like with life as a wife, you know from being Single and and then you focus on much with work and because that was about around the time where I started working as well as you know, full time. So no, it's I kind of stopped and it became a hobby of whenever we would travel especially so my husband and I love traveling, especially during our, our, our anniversary, so we would go down to South Island, and we love to explore, you know, the different parts of South Island, and we would just do a lot of road trips. And I would do a lot of photography then like when we would travel. But other than that there was little or no time to actually pick up my camera. Yeah, yeah. So when you're when you had your daughter, and you and you sort of you, this renewed sort of passion for your photography came back, how long did it take you to decide to make a business out of it? I guess. It took me like, a solid year and a half. Yeah, I've been thinking about it. Like when my baby, when maybe we came along, you know, it's I had more more time being at home. And when she was a baby, you know, like I would hold her, I would hold her when she naps, she was a bit huge and settled that she didn't want to sleep in on her on her bassinet. And so there's a lot of time where I would hold her and so I would have a lot of ideas. You know, and if I decided that every time she would turn every month when it was on the 29th which is her birthday is 29th of January. So on the 29th Every month we would capture I do it like a photo shoot for her. So and I managed to get getting my husband to come do the photo shoot as well with us. He Yeah, so every month I would do that. And it became I just became like, my passion grew, you know, like you, you just I loved it. I was able to edit her photos, you know, as she was sleeping, I would do a lot of editing. So it really I think it became a good platform. For what I do now, if I didn't have that I don't think I would have had the same passion and same kind of standards with my work. Yeah, so that was a big part of it. When she was born. I had that though. It became like a project for me. Something that I had going for me, you know. So that was nice. And looking back, you know, now she has these photos, and I could look back on them and see how much she grew. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's really special. I'm gonna ask how did you go on the 29th of February when it wasn't a leap year? Actually, there was a leap year on where she was born. Oh, me. 20 Was it? Oh, I remember I think I think there was. And then the following year, there wasn't. So after she turned one year, I kind of stopped doing it, you know? Yeah. It became too much, you know, like, she would start to move around. And it was it became impossible to kind of have her stay still. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but added the added element then of movement, even when she was about nine months old when she was searching. Yes, exactly. I had to have the most ridiculous props, like I would get socks in front of the camera and just to try and entertain her better to look at the camera. So I've done it all like moms would say, you know, my clients would say I don't know how you would able to get my capture my my baby or my little one because they're so you know, they're, they want to explore, they can't just sit in front of the camera. And I tell them it's that's not my style. I my my two year old is loves to explore, she would not sit still. And I don't believe in kind of forcing, you know the kids to kind of sit there and stare at the camera and look at look at the camera to smile because the more they explore the more happy they are, the more natural they are. And then you don't need to guide them you just follow them around and kind of be ready when that when that moments there. And that's the thing. That's the challenge for me as a photographer is to catch those moments without them having to be conscious of the camera. Yeah, absolutely. And you'll see like their true personalities comes out because they're not they're not thinking about the camera in their face. They're just exploring and being living their life like normal. No, because when when you ask people to pose or when you ask people to smile, they kind of they post but they once you say okay, we'll take a five min. In a break, they relaxed. They tend to like that. And it's the most candid posts. And I like to. I like to take snaps of that too. Yeah. Yeah. When I say you know, it will take a five minute break. I don't actually mean that. I just wanted to relax and then I snapped them photos. But you know, you get a lot of you get a lot of good photos out of us. Oh, yeah, I bet. Yeah. Cuz we might see it like, as soon as, as soon as you're conscious of the camera is you do you tense up? And then you, you think, or how do I have to look? So you're thinking, you're trying to change how you look? You're not just being itself. So yeah, I have that. That's really, that's a great idea. When you're talking about doing your photos with your daughter, you said you had to have something going on for you. Was it important for you at that point to have something for yourself? Yeah, it was, I think, because especially when COVID hit, you know, and we were doing a lot of lockdown. It was important for me to have a project for myself. That is outside the routine of taking care of baby taking care of everything, you know, running the household. Yeah, you know, something that was for myself. A break? Because then once I, once I had that, it was kind of like I was able to, I don't know, be more relaxed. Yeah, when I take care of her, and she could feel that. Yeah, that's really that's a very common thing that moms talk about. If they've got something for themselves, then when they when they return to their parenting. They are, they're relaxed, they're less stressed. They've got more patients like all this, you know, you feel you feel like yourself, your needs have been met, so then it's easier to sort of meet other people's needs, I suppose. That makes Yeah, yeah. And you also mentioned dancing before, what style of dancing, like I used to help cop was because I was in the wedding industry. And I have a lot of friends during you know, that time. My age, it was the marrying age. Like, you know, 22 So I had a lot of friends. They're like 20s and 30s. So I would help them choreograph their first dance. But it was like a mixture. It was really a mixture. I did interpretive dancing. I at some point did hip hop, but now something like that, but it was a crucial part of me like growing up. I dance since I was able to walk. Yeah, right. Yeah, so it was it's kind of just been but I never turned that into a business. It was it was it was basically I'm I have this creativity that I need to kind of express and whether that be in dancing or music, because I play the guitar also, or just anything but the photography, I think that was really something where I could it worked a lot for our schedule. Because with my photography, I could whenever I have to drive out to the beaches to meet my clients and do a photo photo shoot there. I get time for myself, you know, when you drive out there when you drive back that hour of session where you're just you're not thinking about anything else. But you're, you know, the people in front of you their story there, you're able to share life with them in that hour that you meet them and get to know their family a little bit more. I think that's so special, but that time away from my family enables me to come back and sorry, that's okay. That's okay. enables me to come back home and just, I missed them. I missed them so much. And I'm excited to see them. Yeah. So it's like, you have this renewed energy when you come back. Yeah, brand new energy. Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. You mentioned about what works for your schedule. So how do you how do you schedule your clients around? Yes, so I do photoshoots and the weekends or at night, because sunset right now it's not until 845. So usually I come out at seven 730, something like that. So it works so well. And on weekends as my husband can watch her, and it's good time for them to bond. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm not at all worried. Yeah, you can relax and do your thing. You said you're not thinking about what's happening back at home. You're you're concentrating on in front of you. Yeah. Your mom still with you in in New Zealand? Yeah, she is. Yeah. Yeah. So she's for sometimes she would she would be with them. Yeah, she would be with her. We call her. Lola. Lola. Is grandma in Tagalog? Oh, that's special should be to have it with these two. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And obviously, she's I'm an I'm an only child. So she's, she loves spending time with her only granddaughter. Yeah. And you mentioned you've got your husband, obviously, you've got you've got some good support around you to be able to, to make it work. Yeah. I definitely, I don't think I'll be able, because my husband is my biggest support when it comes to my photography. He just pushes me to, you know, keep going and just encourages me, you know, and he loves that I do this. So it helps a lot when you have huge support like that. Because when you start a business, it's there's a lot of hurdles that come along the way. And it will really kind of question why would you do if you still want to keep going with what you're doing? But having support from your family from your friends it? Yeah. It's a big thing. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Do you ever sort of experience mum guilt or have any thoughts about mum guilt? That topic at all? Yeah, I, if, if we did, you know, I had a look at like, the definition of mom guilt. Because I've heard you know, you you hear once you become a mom, you hear you hear that term. It was a foreign concept to me before I had my baby, you know, and I looked it up answers, you know, where is that feeling when you feel like you haven't done enough or you're not doing? You think you're not doing everything? Right? Like there's something that that needs? That you're not? You, you feel like you're not doing everything right, that there's something missing? Yeah. So you have that feeling? And if by that definition, yes, I there, there have been moments, of course, where you feel like you you're not doing the right thing, because there's no manual that comes with, you know, being a first time parent. Everything is you to you. And even before when when I was pregnant, you know, you have friends, families, and they mean well, they give you advice, but you don't know exactly what it's like until the baby comes. And some things apply to you. That don't apply to other moms. Yeah, no, you do. Yeah. You deal with what comes in your child. Your children have different personalities as well. So you adapt to that. So yeah, there have been moments where I feel like oh, you don't know what I'm doing. But a big part of of the way we cope with that is our faith in God like my husband, I have such strong faith in God and it's it's a big part of how we parent and how we cope with the struggles and the challenges that come with it. I think all of us have. You know, we all have our different challenges when it comes to parenting with every stage. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then in terms of your work, do you sort of feel like I shouldn't be doing this? I should be home with my daughter, like, Does that ever crossed your mind? Or you're like, No, this is my thing. I know she's fine. It not at the moment, because of the schedule. With my photography, I think it's a nice balance. And that was one of the reasons why I'm not going to wedding photography. Just yet anyway, I'm not sure if I ever will. But with my with a solid photography, with my niche with families, and you know, maternity sessions, even like newborn and couples, like engagements I can I can do engagements that the type of sessions I do allows me to just be away from my family for a little bit of time. Majority of the work I do for my photography is actually either the editing or the admin around it. And I can do that at home. I can do the editing when she's napping when she's asleep at night. Yeah, I do the admin around the clock kind of around her schedule, basically. So it works well, because I have time away for a little bit from them. And I'm also able to do a little bit of work around her schedule. So right now it went because I'm not doing wedding photography, it works so well. But if I do, it's going to change a lot because wedding photography is a whole different ballgame where you're away for like the entire day. But even as I think about how I'm going to do that I need to prepare you know, food for her before I go out for the day. And then you don't come back until very late at night. Once the wedding has finished. And then even after the event, you have to backup the file. So if even as I do sessions now, after I come back, I always do backup. So you have to backup the raw files, save them in multiple storage, because the worst thing that can happen is have your photos deleted. You can't get back in time. But yeah, no film, there's no way to I mean, with digital files. Now, you know, there's some way to kind of retrieve some if you've lost them. But I don't ever want to go down that path because I have lost files before not for photography. But when I was studying, I would lose like reports and essays when my USB or laptop crashes. And it's not a good feeling. Oh, no, it is. It is the worst feeling in the world. I did it the other day. Actually, I was I don't know how I did. I was writing on a website. And then somehow I clicked back on my mouse and was like, how did I do that? And then it went back and everything just disappeared. So I thought I'll go forward and it'll be there. And it wasn't I was like, Oh, I just do it again. Anyway, I'm digressing. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. So the other thing I'd like to chat to moms about is identity. So how the concept of themselves might have changed when they became a mum. And you've sort of talked a little bit about it was really important for you to have that creative outlet, doing doing your photography when your daughter was younger, how did you sort of feel about that? That concept of identity change? It's, I mentioned before that like, my husband and I have such strong faith in God and my identity is also rooted on that. And yes, I'm a wife, I'm a mom. I'm a friend, I'm a daughter, but first and foremost, I'm a child of God. And when when I my beliefs, my belief system, my my faith in God, the truth, his truth from from the word it fuels everything that I do in fuel was how I I take care of my husband. It fuels how I become a mom For my two year old, it was how I do my craft, how I take care of the clients that I have in the work the standard of work that I do. So my identity because my identity is secure, and that it helps kind of it helps me figure out all the you know, the challenges, the how I navigate the different parts of my life? And, yeah, it's, it's definitely I would definitely say, you know, I have this thing, when I talk to my friends, where they asked, you know, you, you go from here to here, when you're engaged and from your from being engaged to being married, you go from here to there, it's like a step up. In terms of like, you know, more responsibilities, the different changes, you have to adapt to live a different lifestyle. And then when you become a parent, it's more like, there's this whole 360 Yeah, or one AB, just a huge turn of your life, that lifestyle is completely changed your your, so your identity definitely changes. Having a kid changes you, you know? Because suddenly, you don't look at everything the same way. Hmm. Even as you go. In every decisions that you make, you now have a little one to think of you now when you go to with my husband, I used to go to mall to, you know, around the malls in shopping. And we never really noticed parent rooms. When he became a parent. Yes. Like, where is the best parents? That kind of when, when you didn't have a kid kind of bypass you. Yeah. You just know about those things, right? No, it's not. And now when you go to when you travel somewhere, you used to just think about where you where your destination is. But now, as a mom, you think about all the different. Is there a playground nearby? Is there is it somewhere accessible? You know? Can I take my Prime Day? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So you're Yeah, you're definitely your identity definitely changes in terms of you don't think the same way. You have somebody that you care for now, it's not just about you. It's not just about your husband or your comfort. It's, it changes completely changes. So yeah, yeah, it's about navigating those identities, you know? Yeah. I like the way you put that, that your faith helps you. Helps you position like helps you navigate that you've always got some solid that you can come back to. Yeah, that's always there. Yeah, that's really nice. I love that. Yeah. That's because it's it's so it's so hard. It's all the changes that you have to go through it's hard enough as it is, it will definitely challenge like the way you think it helps you, man the learning. I mean, how much have I grown in the two years that I've had, you know, my toddler Yeah, it's it's just and the learning curve is like dude, like straight up in the air like you don't even get a warm up to it. It's just like, No when the during the day we when you chatting or you know, you you obviously have a connection to your clients, you don't just, you know, you don't just go snap, snap snap. You've talked about how you like to chat with them and get to know them a bit. Do you sort of find just say you've taken a photo of like a couple, like a pregnancy shot. And then you make them when they're, when they've got their baby? Do you find that people sort of share how they're going and how like the adjustments like do you do come across this sort of identity shift or change when you're chatting to your clients as well? Yeah, definitely. And because the you know, you I don't like to pry. I kind of they when they ask me a question about my life, or you know, I tell them about my kid I share stories about My baby and and they in turn share stories, you know how they're able to relate to that? And yeah, you see how it changes, it changed them. There's this connection also when you both know your parents, there's this kind of mutual understanding. And you know, you don't need to kind of say it, it's their fat connection where you know, you understand you understand exactly, you know, it might not be exactly the same story. Again, different babies different style of parenting, different exposures, different kinds of help that they get, or I get, but I think the main, the main thing that I always hear is the complete change of lifestyle. You know, it definitely changes you as a person. Yeah. Oh, gosh, it does. Amazing. It's hilarious. When you think back on what you used to do. I always say to people, I feel like I wasted so much time. Because when you have a child, it's like, any little bit you can get for yourself. Like, what can I do with my time? I still think that also I say I say to myself, I had so much time on my hand before I didn't even realize it. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? You just you didn't realize that? Nothing's free life, like, and then all of a sudden is like, oh, yeah, and now now it's not your schedule anymore. Yeah. Especially when you have little ones you know, it's definitely not your, like, time anymore. It's just you have to you cater, you cater first for your child, what do they need? How can I work around around this? So yeah, that's been, that's been an adjustment also, especially now that that pursued, you know, my photography, you do, you do need to. You can't just pick up your camera up and go and come back and then do all the other work that you need to do. Right. When you want to do them. You have to work around your baby schedule, because there he's she's still my priority. She's, you know? Yeah, yeah, that's it. And it's not like she can wait, like, you know, you just stay there while I do my thing. You'll be like, this doesn't sit there. Okay. I just need to backup my files. And then add that Do you understand this? You'll just look at me and say, milk come on priorities from priority. She'll point at the cupboards and say, yum, yeah. Which is food. And, okay, I'm gonna have to do this later because she's a sweetheart Can I ask you a little bit about having grown up in the Philippines will only listen to you were a little bit. What's the culture there like in terms of mothering? I was speaking to a lady the other day, who's from her, she's from China. And she said, mums in China, maybe not so much these days, but certainly in like her mum's era, their job was just to look after the children and look after the family, they didn't have any sort of interests for themselves. They weren't pursuing, you know, art or music. Their job was just to look after the family. Is there any sort of anything you can share around that in relation to the Philippines? What sort of culturally like mother's roles would have been? Yeah, we are very communal people like we we a lot you would see when you go to the Philippines, you will see a lot of families like living together with their in laws, or even even if they're not living together in the same house. Their houses are pretty much nearby. Like right next to each other. Yeah. So not all, but there's a lot like that. And you know how there's that saying, you know, you you raise your kid. What is that saying? Makes you feel a village? Yeah, it takes a village to raise this kid. Yes. That's exactly like Philippines. Yeah, you have that village. Everyone kind of helps out. Um, and they the concept of, you know, sleeping in a separate room is very, it's not popular there. One because sometimes the circumstances don't allow you it's Philippines is is not like New Zealand where you you have the luxury sometimes of having multiple rooms in the house sometimes, you know, you go into provinces and there's just one room and all of the families stay there. And that's the kind of, you know, for a lot of families that's the reality that they have to deal with. So yeah, co sleeping is not an option. I mean, you know, it's it's the only option. Yeah. And then so the kind of parenting that they have it's a lot of a lot of people help out which is a good thing which you get a mums get a lot of support in that sense. They can also have help you know, they can they sometimes have their their animals or their their own moms that come like almost every day that helped you know, who can help them out? Yes. How am I just making sure that we know he's still there. And this is kind of like it I mean, this this type of I guess, as as we talk and she's in the background, that's kind of how our community that's that's it. So you can't you engage them in every activity. They are they socialize like that there. They grew up there with their cousins and their their siblings together. They go out of the house and all the kids are on the street. Yeah, even even now, even at the age of having cell phones and, you know, computers, you still I love that about the Philippines, you go out of the house, and they're still there playing. Yeah, you see the neighbors kids? And yeah, because it's the kind of environment it's the kind of community that they have. Probably not right now with COVID, though. No. Oh, different story, hi, all different stories, or when the pandemic there and it's completely and completely changed the world. And on that to your daughters, too. So you've basically she the only life that she's known is during a pandemic, like that would have been challenging for you. I mean, you did mention before about having your, you know, your photography is sort of your outlet, during the pandemic, but literally her life has only existed during the pandemic, like that's extraordinary thing to think of, isn't it? Yeah. It's yeah, let's put it this way. We had so many lock downs. And then the last lap locked down and it's the, the longest to my husband for a year he's been telling me you know, I think we should we should build the deck, you know, just for the little one. I keep saying no, I'm not back at work. Yeah, it's a huge investment. I don't think we should go for it. And then after that locked down, I said to him, let's contact somebody to build the deck, because this is to go out and expel all that energy. She just needs to be out out of the house. Let's build that back. Oh, yeah. That's it in a nutshell. Isn't it? Really? Yeah. They need to you need she needs to explore she needs to play with other kids. And yeah, they need that stimulation. Otherwise you as a mom go crazy. Oh, yeah. It's like cabin fever. You're just trapped Correct. Right now I've got a list of all they'll be nice to do, you know, list for my photography. One of the main thing that I want to I want to launch go for it to go live is my website. I mean, I've been wanting to have a website to showcase all of my work there, you know, in one place, because right now I have my Instagram and I have my Facebook page, but I'm working on my website. Yeah, but I'm gonna throw in that maybe podcast in the future. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. So this is the thing, isn't it? Like, I've no, there's no, when you're in your creative person, like, you've talked about your dancing and guitar and photography, like, there's no limits to it, you know, if you want something, just do it, you know? Oh, great. Yeah, absolutely. And I think creative people are really good at doing that. Just giving things a try, you know? Yeah. And mostly without expectation, you can just try something because you think you want to try it, you know? And if it works, it works. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. And it's like, oh, I tried. You know, yeah, you can't you don't look back and say, what if? You know, the what ifs? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's another thing with now I'm a mom, I'm able to stay at home with my that's another thing why I decided to pursue my photography is i, it enables me to stay with her. Yeah, you know, it's not it's, I don't do it only for the financial reasons. But I can't ignore the fact that it also helps. So it's, you know, this is the timeout I have when I was working before my photography, I always wondered, oh, what would it be like to you know, have my own photography business, but like I said to you, it was more of a hobby thing, I was never going to turn this into a business one because I was too scared to I was more comfortable with just shooting for myself, then also providing it, you know, professionally asked for clients to have that expectations. But now I'm in the season of my life where if I have the courage, you can actually you're able to do it. You know, it gives me that platform, because now I have the time. Whereas before, it's mostly Oh, one day, maybe? Yeah. Whereas now, I'm in it, you know? Yeah. That's awesome. Good on. Yeah. That's good. You gave me opportunities they gave me you know, the opportunity to come meet you and talk to you. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I tend to, you know, meet a lot of people that I wouldn't have met through my photography, and that alone is a blessing to me. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I feel like that with this podcast, like, I'm talking to people that I would have had no reason to talk to you ever before. And it's wonderful meeting such amazing women, and learning so much. Like I love learning, particularly about, like, I love photography, I used to, I never did it professionally. But I used to take, do photos for weddings and stuff back in the day where it was on film. And I love the details of stuff like I was really drawn to, you know, like, the photos of the, you know, rings and like people's expressions, watching the wedding and things like that. I loved that. But it was just, you know, a hobby that I did a couple for friends, but my main thing is easic. So, when I talked to artists, it's so inspiring for me, because I'm like, Oh, I could give that. Like it's just, it's opened up all these new new ideas for me, and just fun things I can try for myself and learning. I really, really enjoy it. It's so much fun. That's good, because you need you do need that outlet. Hmm, absolutely. Yeah. Even if it's, I mean, some people resort to like cooking or baking and other people and to trying out different things that they've never tried before, or like me something that they've always wanted to try but they have been so afraid to try but also don't have the time nor enough motivation to actually pursue it. Yeah, and now and now that I do you know, I find and and my husband said you know, because I've been going back and forth on deciding whether to pursue you know, to pursue this business or not. And he said to me, you know, at least you won't have to look back and said you didn't try if it didn't work out then didn't work out it was a time in your life where you had you know, you were able to just try something new and just try and enjoy it just try enjoy the process all the things that you learn from it and I have been learning so much so much and I'm sure you have to as you started this journey Yeah. Oh, that's great. And like having the support like you said before, that's just you know, you can't you can't do things without having someone like that. Yeah, yeah, no, you can. Yeah, I put on him. You, thanks so much for coming on. It's been such a lovely chat this morning. And it's lovely to have some of your daughter's energies with Jana, thank you for having us. I'm sorry, I couldn't stay in just the one room and oh my lord, in order to oh, I mean, this is thing that we need people to. It's mum life, isn't it? It's what we do. The realities of being having to try and work. That's it, isn't it? But we make it work, don't make it work, whatever works. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Elise Addlem Australian philosopher + feminist S2 Ep75 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Today I am very pleased to welcome Elise Addlem to the podcast, a philosopher and feminist based in Europe, and a mum of 1. Elise is an Australian philosophy educator with a background in academic philosophy (MA) and Early Childhood Education. After teaching philosophy at an academic level and to the public, and working with kids, Elise became passionate about public philosophy. In particular, she is developing resources and courses on feminism, neoliberalism and general philosophy for parents. She believes that philosophical and intersectional feminism connects directly to our everyday, lived experience. Elise is passionate about sharing her ideas and encouraging others to challenge norms and think critically, and putting ideas into practise in realistic and achievable ways ... and bring to the public the academic ideas without the condescension and jargon. Connect with Elise Instagram / YouTube / Website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mothers work is influenced by their children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for tuning in. It's a pleasure to have you back if you're a regular listener. And if this is your first time, welcome. It is such a pleasure to have you here. Today I'm pleased to welcome Elise Adlam to the podcast. Elise is a philosopher, and a feminist based in Europe, and she's a mom of one. Elise is an Australian philosophy educator with a background in academic philosophy, and early childhood education. After teaching philosophy at an academic level, and to the public, and working with kids, Elise became passionate about public philosophy. In particular, she's developing resources and courses on feminism, neoliberalism, and general philosophy, parents, she believes that philosophical and intersectional feminism connects directly to our everyday lived experiences. Elise is passionate about sharing her ideas, and encouraging others to challenge the norms and to think critically. And to put those ideas into practice in realistic and achievable ways. And to bring to the public the academic ideas. Without the condescension and jargon. I discovered Elise by Instagram. And I really resonate with her thoughts, and her opinions and also the ways that she shares these. And I really hope you enjoy hearing from her today. And I encourage you to check her out on Instagram, her YouTube and her website. The music used on today's podcast is from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, M Anderson, and her husband, John, thanks so much for tuning in. I really hope you enjoy today's chat. Thanks so much for coming on. At least it's a real pleasure to meet you and to welcome you today. You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me on your Instagram. I'm sure you might be on other platforms. But I've come across you on Instagram. Yeah, what you're doing is awesome. And I just had to have you on the show. We're not going to spin it that you're an artist of any kind. Yeah, because you do creative to get your point across. But I just wanted to have you on because you're one of those people I really resonate with. I really love what you're sharing. And the way you share it too. It's very concise and straightforward. So without me blabbing on can you tell us what your sort of pedagogy and childcare? Your your? Yeah, like your one on one? Yeah. Yeah. So basically, my background is in childcare, I worked with kids for quite a long time. I studied it a little bit. And then I worked as a nanny for a long time. And that was at the same time as studying for a lot of years, I was studying philosophy. So I did my undergrad degree, that took me a long time, then I did my honours that we have in Australia. And then I did my masters overseas. And so yes, I was really interested in academia. But as I went on, I really came to become more interested in what I like to call public philosophy. So basically bringing philosophical ideas to the public. And I thought it was really important to do that in a way that's digestible in a way that people can understand. Because often it seems like philosophy is something that's really removed from society and people will purposely or not be talking about things in a way that's really hard for people to understand. I think that it doesn't need to be that way. And I really wanted to try and communicate things to people in a way that makes sense. Because why do we have all these big ideas, these ideas about society if we can't communicate them, as well as that? When I worked with kids, and then when I became a mother, I really got focused on this idea of how we can communicate these ideas to children and to parents because I think the children have these amazing minds where they're so so open minded. They don't have these constructs in their minds yet, like we come to Have which societally given to us, and which we are given through certain binary ideas through the schooling system, and just through the progression of, I guess how our, how our minds grow. So, yeah, that came to be really interesting to me. As well as that, obviously, the as well as that political philosophy and ethics is really important to me. And, obviously, so many problems with the capitalist system with patriarchy, and things like that affects parents, particularly mothers. And so all of that I kind of try and bring together in this way that I can, yeah, I can share with people on social media. What sort of got you first got, and it's interesting. I didn't realize you're in childcare before. That's my I was in childcare for nine years. Now, I'm in the kindy system. So I'm sort of switched into. Yeah, it's very interesting. But what got you interested in philosophy? Do you remember sort of what was the Yeah, I do. I do. So yeah, the childcare thing. I mean, to be honest, that was a way for me, because I always love kids. That was a way for me to work while studying because I mean, to be honest, I just didn't want to do retail or something like that. For years. I loved working with kids. And I thought, why not do that at the same time. And it's such meaningful work. It's really difficult work. But it's so meaningful, and impactful with the philosophy, so I grew up in a working class background, and I didn't even know philosophy existed until I went to uni. I was the first one to go to uni, my family. I'm the oldest of my siblings, my sister also ended up going. But yeah, I discovered it before that I was really interested in literature and writing. And they're really linked, I think, because it's both to do with ideas. So yeah, I took that first philosophy class in first year, and I kind of had my mind blown. I thought, well, you can talk about all these ideas and think about things. And then it took me a few years to sort of realize, yeah, this is something I'm really interested in and want to do. But it is quite a, it's quite a tough area to be in, in the, in the sense that I mean, you probably know, within neoliberalization of education, all levels of education, higher education, really, the number of positions in the humanities departments is very, very low. And like, the grind for academics is really, really hard. And so yeah, so actually, I'm completely obsessed with it. But I'm still wondering, Am I going to go on and do my PhD? I think I have this pardon me, you know, this academic part of me that really wants that, because that's like, you know, like to have that recognition from academia that I was trying so hard in. On the other hand, after I had my daughter, I really, you know, I thought, I don't want that life. I don't want the life where I'm just grinding away, barely seeing my daughter. And if we have more kids having to move everywhere, just for these jobs where you barely get paid anything. You don't have job security. So yeah. I think that I kind of had to work through my ideas of what it means to do philosophy. And and yeah, and I think this idea of public philosophy is kind of a white assault that I like that it's like, yeah, you're not completely consumed by that. Academia world where at night, it's almost like the outside world doesn't exist. You go to high school, you go to in you go to uni, and you stay in this system forever. You've come. Like, honestly, I had a few years out of it anyway. Because I, I went, I went straight from school to uni. And then I kind of had, I realized that because I initially thought I wanted to the journalism then I kind of dropped out ahead a few years and then I went back. And I kind of did it a slow way. Just because I had to work and things like this as well, you know, like, and then yeah, I, but what I've observed and experience with people, there's this there's a really insular quality to academia. I don't know about other departments, but particularly in philosophy, maybe because it's to do with ideas. It can become really abstract. And sometimes the things you hear are just not related to people's real lives, you know, like, there will be people should do this, or people should behave this way. It's just not recognizing the real nature of life, the real struggles people go through, you know, like, because there is a elitist quality to university, and there are still a lot of privileged people there. Mostly, of course, white men, especially philosophy has mostly white men. And I mean, I'm a white woman, you know, I'm not, I'm not a black or brown woman, I'm, I live in a smaller body. So I also don't experience I'm able bodied. So you know, even having said all of that, I feel like I experienced a lot of I don't know whether I would call, I wouldn't call it discrimination, but just little microaggressions and things like that, you know, you feel it, you feel that you're not the main type of person. So, yeah, so that's another one of the reasons why I think I maybe don't suit that, huh. Yeah. And like you said before, there can be this sort of particular way of speaking, like you said, whether it's deliberate or not, it's almost like a condescending way that like, you don't know this. So I'm going to say, I really, really dislike this. And I admit that I drank the Kool Aid as an undergrad. Because I think because when you're learning and you're thinking, wow, this is so exciting, I need to be, I need to be that person that I admire you who can talk in this way. So using all these neologisms, all the all these new words that have been made up? And, yes, sometimes, for sure, that can be helpful for the theory. But if you've made up a term, you can also then explain what that term means. And yeah, I just think, I guess that some, some people are, you know, really made for theorizing, and some people are made for teaching. And I feel like maybe teaching is my, my thing. You've got a very sort of down to earth approach with that, like, you can see that it's an important thing. And we've all got to, you know, challenge these, the norms, and this critical thinking is really important. But then you actually have to be able to put into practicing in your life in a realistic way. You can't just be barking theories and ideas at people. To be honest, yeah, I mean, some people do do that. And it frustrates me a lot. This is one gripe I have, of course, it's not everyone. There are some fantastic people there. And, you know, some just amazing people that are so down to earth, and that really are fantastic teachers and are able to communicate things in a really clear way. But there are also a lot of people that just aren't interested in doing that, to be honest. They're not interested in the real world in there. Yeah, exactly. Well, to be honest, the all the ones you know that the other ones they've never been in the real world things you hear from people, you know, these older men who their father was in academia, then they were in academia, and they literally maybe have never caught public transport. Or they've never, you know, they've never done a job, they've never had to, you know, serve someone at a takeaway plate, or MCAS or something, or they've never had to, you know, get yelled at by a boss in retail, or you know, just those everyday things that are part of life for most people. And so then to then theorize what a good life is, or what we need to fix in the world. Wanted to ask you about you mentioned Neo liberalism, and that's something that you do know about a lot on your Instagram. Can you explain to people who might not be familiar with what it's about? Of course, yeah. So I think it's important first to talk about what liberalism liberalism is, and then neoliberalism came after. So liberalism, generally came from the enlightenment. So this was a movement in France, in Germany in the UK, in the 17th century, that focused on the liberation of people from a kind of, I guess, cloud of closed thinking now. The idea was that we should be free to To govern our own lives. So, thinkers like Immanuel Kant, John Jacques Rousseau, who some people might have heard of, they had these ideas that people should be able to govern their own lives, they should be able to choose what they do insofar as it doesn't hurt, but as long as it doesn't hurt other people. And importantly, they should be free to think, in a free way, not restrained by outside ideas. Importantly, at this time, their context was a religious society. So it's important to mention that we're still religious men. And this is the interesting thing, perhaps because of the times, but they, they believe that these rules shouldn't govern all of society. So that was super important to be. So to have your thoughts led by reasoning, by thinking does this make sense? Instead of buy doctrine from the church. So this was an enormous moment, because really, at the time, you know, people still couldn't read. So a lot of people still couldn't read, only the elite could read. So that means that if you were told something by a religious leader, that is the truth, you didn't come to truth, by some sort of scientific process or some process of reasoning, it was just what you were told. So this was a huge, huge moment. Then we also have lived in come to have liberalism as a political system. So this is a system in which in which people should be free to do what, sorry, people should be free to do what they want. Or sorry, I'll say it again, people should be free to do what they want, insofar as it doesn't hurt other people. And people should have their rights protected to be free. Now, neoliberalism then, is a political system that began in the 1980s. So in America, you had Ronald Reagan in the UK had Margaret Thatcher, who people probably might have heard of these people's names, because they're pretty important. Australia, I don't remember who we had. So basically, they were really pushing for everything to be privatized. The idea of near liberalisation is that anything that is owned by the government, any sort of welfare state, so a welfare state is like, where the where the government will give people a pension, where they'll give people disability payment, they'll give people payment, if they are without a job, they will give and all these other things like they will fund the schooling system fund, hospitals, even some things we don't even think about, like the Postal Service, ambulances, everything that is public. The neoliberal process, made all of these things private. So that means that companies, some, some rich person bought it. And then that is now owned by a private person. That means that there's no longer this sort of idea that it's a public good, or it's something that everyone should be able to use just because they live in this society. Rather, it will be something that you have to pay for, and that will be based on whatever the company decides. So this process was a really ideological one. And it meant that so many things were privatized, to varying extents. So we've seen the we see in the UK, and particularly in America that so so many things have been privatized, that society comes to disintegrate. So in Australia as well, we had it. But America is really kind of the hallmark of this because in America, even things like the Postal Service has started to be privatized, we see that the schooling system has just been absolutely gutted. And you know, teachers even have to pay for their own resources and things like this sometimes. The other important thing that I do talk about a lot. I hope I'm not explaining in too much detail. No, this is great. Okay, so the other thing that's really central to this that I love talking about is the idea of the neoliberal individual. So going back to the enlightenment, the idea of individualism is really invented, at least in Western thought. So like I said before, enlightenment thinking and liberalism was based on this idea that we should be able to be free as individuals. So then we start to have this idea of an individual, I think that now we probably don't even think about it because, you know, we just think we're all people. We're all separated. But this is actually a really cultural thing and a really I really within our historical context, some societies today don't have this idea, you know, they're more collective societies they don't think always i. So this was brought to light through this enlightenment process. And this kind of shows how these ideas do affect real life, because first of all these thinkers came up with them, then they come to be proliferated, or, or they reach the world, through governments and through leaders through schooling. And eventually, it becomes common sense thinking that we are just all these individuals who are separated from one another. And the most important thing is that I get to choose what I do, and I am in competition with you. In neoliberalism, this becomes even harsher. So like, like I said, before, under neoliberalism, there's really this idea that the government should not infringe upon our rights. Because if the government is doing anything to it, if the government is telling us anything to do, then that is immediately an infringement upon our rights. And it's interesting, because in philosophy, we have these two ideas. They're called positive and negative freedom. So positive freedom is my ability to act. So I am free to do, I'm free to do something. Negative freedom is something that was completely forgotten in neoliberalism. But it's something that's also really important, it's when you are given some restrictions that allow you to be more free. So for example, they protect you. So for example, you can really think about it, I think, a really easy way is when you think about a toddler, right? With a toddler we're always trying to do, we were always having to protect them from doing certain things, or we're always having to sort of given the conditions in which they can flourish. Because if that if they are just if they're just allowed to do anything ever actually, they can't develop and they can't become self governing people. Because they can't become people that can look after themselves as human beings that you need these restrictions on yourself. So other ways. Other things that would be examples of negative freedoms are like a schooling system, you have to, you have to learn this in this, these in these things, mathematics, reading, and things like that. So that you will actually be able to be more free in the world, because you have then have this logical understanding of how things work. You can read and write, and so you can manage yourself in the world. Neoliberalism kind of completely did away with this idea. And I think that that's a real detriment. So everything is rather just seen as a intervening on an individual who, who really needs to be deciding 100% for themselves all the time, what they should do. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's also Yeah, it's also a huge mistake, because of course, we are still living in a society and we, everyone has roads, right? There's still a push for good. There's still a social thing, we still always have stuff that is part of society that actually taxes and the government has given us. So I think it's kind of misunderstanding the world. But yeah, this is so important to me, because I just think that this really impacts every everything we do, really every part of our lives. It seems to me, sorry, that's not a way to start a sentence that sounds like I'm gonna say something really profound, but I'm not. I've never really learned about this in like a steady kind of way like I'm aware of. But I sort of find it so interesting that it seemed to start out as a good idea that you question things and you learn things, but then at some point, it's just gone to the extreme kind of like, when did it become a good idea not to support people in our society that need help, like, yeah, it just and that's, I think worth, like Thatcher has got such a poor reputation in a lot of cultures. Yeah, in a lot of circles, because she just, it was like, I don't know if I enjoyed watching her portrayal on the crown on that series. Yeah, it was fantastic. Ryan, I really liked it. If anyone wants to learn about Aaron in an accessible way, that's a really good introduction. It's not all true, obviously. But I also I also really enjoyed that because I think they did portray really well. How Yeah, kind of the her really special nature because she was a very special person, I think an interesting political figure, not one that I agree with a lot. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely an interesting path for now. And it was interesting to see the conflict between, you know, two women I'm taking this in a different direction now. But in the term feminism, something that I'm really all over I love the other day, it seems like the other day because I happen so quickly. But when, when Liz truss became prime minister in the Yeah. And everyone was like, Oh, it's so it's a woman, we should all be so happy. And I felt like saying, but will we all happy with, you know, Thatcher? And she was yeah, you know, this this? I don't know. Absolutely universal. I mean, just because it's a woman. You know, it's really a simplification, I think. And yeah, I really agree with you. I'm exactly the same. I think just because it's a woman, it doesn't mean it's suddenly going to be fantastic. And I we still have, and this is the importance of I think when when feminists are being intersectional, which has, you know, this idea that we look at all these different ways that people are disempowered, different power structures. So yeah, she's a woman. But she's already within this power system. You know, so she and she already has these values. So, you know, she just because she's a woman, doesn't mean that she's immediately going to stand up for women stand up for black and brown women stand up for trans women, you know, urge poor women? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I thought, yeah, there was a lot of that. That was funny. That was a funny, funny few weeks in the UK, wasn't it? My gosh, I listen to BBC Radio, like at night. Overnight, I have an EN. And gee whiz, even they were just, you know, for country that everything's meant to be proper and seem to be right from the Yeah, I? Yeah. Gosh, I mean, I think my husband and I were talking about a lot. And we, I don't know, I kind of have an idea that it's like a bit of a falling empire. Like in the, in the past, you know, it was this world empire that really, obviously colonized everywhere, you know, an empire and in a terrible sense, usually empires a lack of that they do a lot of colonizing and all these terrible things. But yeah, it was an empire. And you know, they thought, the leader of progression and it's not that anymore, and it's interesting. Yeah, it's not in a very good situation. So nearly realism, bad putting it? We don't like it. We don't like it. Yeah. What, what's the opposite to that? Is there a term that Yeah, yeah, tell me all about that. Look, I never, I never like to just prescribe and say, Look, this is 100%, what we should do, we always say, to look at the individual conditions of a particular society. So every society is different. But in general, I argue that a social welfare system would be much better for a system of government where there are these basic protections for everyone. So all these things we talked about. So you know, childcare would be affordable, the minimum wage would be really high so that everyone can afford to live. Health care would be really accessible to everyone, there'll be a universal health care system. They wouldn't schooling wouldn't have public and private schooling, you would just have a schooling system that was accessible to everyone. There would be less of a gap between rich and poor. And at the level of decide ideology, or the idea of the individual, there would be less of a sense that we all need to be completely separate from one another, and more of a sense that we do live in a collective and that we are as human beings, in our very nature. We are collective beings and that we do flourish, we live better lives when we're more connected to one another. So there would also be these grassroots and bigger level structures that really facilitate us always connecting with people. I think that then people would also be flourishing, they'd be leading better lives, but they would also hopefully be less lonely and less isolated. Hmm, yeah. Yeah, this sort of it's such a weird Student thing, isn't it that we've all got to be in tune, we've lost this sense of, you know, it takes a village, you know, that still rings dry. So many countries, it literally does take a village because you've got everyone around you look at even in even my husband's culture, he's not Australian. I just see how people behave. And it's so different. You know, like in Australia, we kind of have this idea that we'll all help each other. And it's kind of true. But when I see it in these small collective cultures, it's just a totally different thing. Like you don't even I don't know you, you don't people don't even think about it. It's just part of life, you know, that you everyone's always helping one another. You never really feel alone. Sometimes it's the opposite, you know, you feel feel smothered by people. But I don't know, even things like, look, I think when it comes to being a mother, which is obviously something that both you and I are really interested in being a mother, you know, mothers are so isolated. In Australia, America, Canada, these so called Western countries, because we've been told we have to do it all alone, it doesn't make any sense. Even. You know, we have that these ideas that grandparents, you know, they shouldn't be around the family all the time. And I'm not I'm not saying that they have to have to be some slave to their grandchild or something. You know, everyone has their individual circumstances. But but you know, that other cultures do have a different idea of family where, where you're just always together and you're, you're coming popping in and out. It's not the scheduled thing where you know, you're like, Okay, well, Grandma will look after you on set at Saturday from two to four. And then I don't know, it's more just like, more of a floor. Yeah. So yeah, I think we've kind of gone wrong in that way. It's really, it's really sad thing. Yeah, I can, I mean, people are becoming more aware. And I think it's something we can change, you know, you know, if we, if we recognize a problem, I think we can start to change it. Absolutely. And that's what I love about this, like, you know, so many people on social media, and through podcasts, and all sorts of things that are saying how they feel about things, and questioning, you know, just because we've always done this a certain way. Why do we have to keep doing it this way, is really important. The really important thing is we haven't always done it this way. And this is something that is really, really what happens with ideology, you know, an idea becomes the main idea about something. And then the best the way it works, the best is that everyone thinks, well, we've always done this, you know, I've heard people say, like, with capitalism, a woman and older woman said to me, we've always done it this way. University has always been, you know, really expensive. And I said to her in your life, it was free. Like, in your own life, not not only so it's amazing in the cultural imagination, how we can forget. Yes, that is very true. That is a good point. Yeah. And it's almost like, whatever idea is at the forefront of the time, that that idea wants us to forget everything else. Sort of going down. Yeah. Yeah. No. with critical thinking, because you know, this idea of thinking about things and picking apart why something is the way it is, particularly Yeah, for kids because I think that you know, if they grow up always picking things apart. I hope that then there'll be a little bit less, like you said, brainwashed or a little bit less accepting of everything. Yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. Talk about this idea of introducing children to these to the, to the notion of critical thinking and to social what is you had something really good on your Instagram? Social justice? Oh, social justice concepts? Yeah. I said, You should introduce them from the very beginning, rather than sort of when they're old enough to what we think old enough to understand them. Yeah, I guess my big thing for me is that we can really break this down into ways that kids can understand whether because, yeah, I worked with kids a lot. I have my own kid. And I think it's really fun to think about for me as a challenge. Think about how we can break them down into things Kids will understand. So you really got to bring them to their level. So, yeah, if we're going to talk about social justice concepts with little kids say toddlers, we got to think, what are we really talking about with social justice? You know, we're talking about inequalities in the world and the way that some people are prejudiced against other people. Some people don't get as good a life as other people. We're really talking about what's fair, aren't we, that's the basis and you know, actually, we talk all the time to kids about what's fair, anyway, because we're really, we're teaching them this, they don't sort of come out and have an idea we anyway, we have to teach them. So why not then bring it up already, you know, in ways, you know, when I've talked to people, um, for example, on my Instagram, I've collaborated a bit with this wonderful woman Kinesia, and she does work on anti racism. And she says that, you, you, you need to actually name the things you like pretending, not saying black, not saying that kid is black, that's not going to help anyone, if they are black. And there are differences, we need to point them out and point out how they're beautiful. And point out how they're great and interesting. So you know, from the very beginning, when we're reading books with kids, make sure that they're diverse books and say, Look, you know, that mommy has white skin, that Daddy has black skin, that mommy has red hair, that day has brown hair, it's sort of you know, everyone's different. And that's what's special about us. And that's what's beautiful. And then you can point out instances, you know, in the playground of like, people being, I don't know, maybe, you know, that kid was being mean to that other kid, because they're smaller than them. That's not nice. Because just because they're bigger than them, that doesn't mean that they should be allowed to push the person around. And they you're talking about power structures? Yeah, but it's not. Yeah, I think I'm not being naive when I say that all these things are connected, I think that you're, you're setting them up to think about these things. And I just think that children are so so capable of thinking, you know, the questions they come up with are just the most amazing questions. So we should just really kind of feed into that. Yeah. And, and you're right, like kids, they don't come out. Like, we were the same, you know, we were little the world has formed us into who we are by, you know, the concepts in the world about racism, and, you know, all those sorts of negative judgment of other people. Yeah. And if we can sort of be aware of that, and I don't know, not to that to our kids like, exactly, putting it. Yeah, like, Yeah, I think we can never be, you know, part of human nature is to group ourselves. That is something which, you know, I think there's always going to be, it's always going to be a process of learning and unlearning, and it's never going to be a thing where I'm like, now I don't, now I'm not prejudiced against anyone. I like to kind of pull myself I mean, take it that I'm always racist, you know, I have internally not on purpose, but I'm always gonna have inside me, or I'm always I always have misogynistic ideas. So I always have ideas about men and women that are based on their gender that I've learned, because these are internal, we're always going to kind of have them to a certain extent. And as much as we try for our kids, they will have different prejudices, or the same ones that continue. So it's also teaching them to constantly question those as well. And to say, it's not that not to feel guilty not to say that I'm a bad person, because of this, that doesn't help anyone. But just to say, look, I'm not perfect, no one is perfect, but we're trying to build a better world. And let's kind of all be vulnerable in saying that none of us you know, none of us have pure thoughts or something like this, you know, but we're all we're trying. Yeah, we were all doing our best. Exactly. We're all doing our best, be realistic and just try our best. Yeah, I think that children are capable of, you know, of taking on the complexity of the world. And you know, like, yeah, you're not gonna say, you're not gonna make it kids obsess about it, or something. You're not gonna be like, but also we, you know, and this is something that it's hard for all of us. It's hard for me, children are people and they're, you know, they have all different emotions, like everyone, they can't be happy all the time. And, you know, so it's not a bad thing that they feel sad. And I think when when we grew up often, there was this idea that you just shouldn't point these things out. You shouldn't talk about it. Yeah, at least where I grew up, and yeah, and yeah, but If you didn't see it, right, like, as a kid, you're kind of confused because you're like, why someone talking about this stuff? And then you think it's a bad thing to even address or talk about, I kind of feel like we're living in a different context now, because we live in a much more global society. And, you know, we have access, and our kids have access to people from all over the world via the internet, and, and I kind of knew that they might grow up having a more global sense. And having said that, yeah, I think the only way things really change in the end is kind of at a smaller level. So that's it, isn't it? Yeah. But I was gonna rely on it today, we decided it was a good idea not to use plastic straws. And on the, you know, it's just one straw said, you know, 13 million people, you know, so it's like, every single person and do something. And yeah, you know, it does start with little actions. And I don't think exactly, the value of those. Exactly. I'm always kind of the arguing that the minute that it needs to be we need to as individuals push for structural change, we need to stop, you know, governments and big companies from doing the things that they are because often with this, with our society being so focused on individuals, they, the dialogue on purpose is pushed towards these individual changes. So yeah, for us are important, but as long as they speak, all companies is still mining. And still, you know, as long as governments are still in Australia, you know, the government is heavily heavily embedded with a big mining companies. As long as this is the case, then, if we recycle, that's only going to do so much that's going to be both. Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that. Yeah, for sure. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. I want to read out one of the quotes that you have on your Instagram, completely relate to and I love it so much, I want to frame it and put on my wall, a mother's identity and sense of self is tied to the and then in brackets, lack of social recognition she receives for her labor. Now that basically in a nutshell, is how I felt. After I had my child, my identity went down the drain, because all I was expected to do was look after a child and I kept thinking, I'm so capable. I've worked full time I've done all this stuff. But now all society wants me to do is sit on the floor and play with this baby. And it just felt so weird. And I was challenged very much. So yes, yeah, that's, that's, um, yeah, I think so many of us go through this. And you know, on the one hand it is there are two sides to it. On the one hand, you have that. For some, for some women, this is so monotonous. And this is just, you know, women are told that they need to absolutely love being a mother every single moment. And this is a this is a patriarchal idea, because it's based on the idea that women are just naturally made to be nurturers. This is your God given role. And some women simply don't feel that and that's totally okay. And, you know, one person isn't meant to completely bring up a child. On the other hand, I think that capitalism really puts this emphasis on our job, and our identity is totally tied to our job. And I talked about that a little bit in the in the Instagram post. So identity is so tied to our job that when we go on maternity leave, have this complete identity crisis. You know, it's an existential crisis, that just means crisis related to our understanding of the meaning of life existentialism, yeah, meaning of life. So yeah, whole idea is what does my life actually mean? I'm not doing anything, and that's because doing is always within capitalism producing. Yeah, and also, I'm not earning a wage for this. And so therefore, this is meaningless. When actually what you are doing is you're contributing to society by bringing human beings into it. You know, you this is a huge part of it. I mean, this is one of the biggest ways that you are contributing to society, like babies fundamentally cannot look after themselves. So Yeah, so I think that we're kind of women and mothers are really put in this catch 22 situation you can't win either way, right? If you stay home, you want to be a stay at home mom, no, you're not doing anything meaningful, you're not producing. And then you're in your, you know, even some people will say, Are your bad feminists, which is completely not true, because feminism should be about women choosing what they do with their lives. So as they're not harming anyone else. And then on the other hand, you have, if you want to go back to work, you're abandoning your child, your your role as a woman is to look after your child. So yeah, women really can't win in this literally cannot win. I'm just looking for this quote, I had a guest last the last year or this year, I can't remember now. Charlotte Conde who's an an artist from the US, and she had a quote that I love, and I'm finding it because I've got to say it right? I can't, I can't not say it right, because it's awesome. Where is it? Hello, Charlotte, if you're listening, alright, here we go. This is it says, as mothers were asked to raise human beings and also contribute to society, as if those two things were different. It's exactly what's so well, what's because society somehow under capitalism has become the economic world. Yeah, it, it has become just that and not all these other aspects of society. Yeah, and, you know, sometimes the word care economy is used to talk about how this is that, you know, is also a sort of economy where we're producing but I think even we don't even need to use those terms. It's just the fact that nurturing one another is one of the main human acts in the way that we, you know, part of being human and living a good life. Not to mention that we, there's no way around it like either way. Either way, look after our children at home or other people look after children in a childcare center. It is still this care, right? Yeah. Yeah, people need that. So yeah, we is really the fact that they consider different things as a real problem. Hmm. And again, I think that's, yeah, this one off, like I sometimes bash men too much. But this whole it's not individual men. It's the snobbery. It's been going for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's not a new thing. But here's an interesting post. I can't remember who wrote it. Just last night, I was reading that. The whole idea of being a natural mother. Nurture is a concept that was created by men by the patriarchy. Exactly, I'm sure. Because that's yeah, I felt that when I was first giving my baby his very first bath, and did not know what to do. I thought, how, like, I remember saying to the nurse, I was verbally like, how do I push with the facewash? Like all these? You don't know, just your instincts. I'm like yeah, you got this tiny, tiny little, little alien looking thing. That's the funny thing. Yes. Somehow, when actually moms and dads Oh, parents, just learning the same as one another, you know, like, what? Yeah, when, when my daughter was born, my husband and I were both equally terrified of giving her a bath. Because you know this. So like, how do I hold them? What do I do? And it's like, yes, you're all learning together? Yeah. absolutely absurd. This idea. And you're right, it, of course, does come from patriarchy. Because there's this thing called Gender essentialism. I'm sure you kind of know the idea, or at least maybe not the term. So I was gonna say not probably not in those words, but I know, you would know it for sure. Yeah. So gender essentialism is basically just saying that certain qualities are inherently female, and certain qualities are inherently male. So the female ones would be nurturing, soft, emotional, kind of soft, and all these things and then the male ones would be hard reasoning. unemotional because of anger isn't an emotion in this context. And kind of separated from other people. And these ideas, yeah, are really fundamental to the way that we think about people of different genders and then yeah, becoming a mother. You're just so pushed into this. Because I guess in the workforce, you know, you can kind of there are a lot of still a lot of limits on women, but you can kind of go into a field that you're interested in that but with mothering, you're really, really pushed into that. I am a nurturer. I have to be a nurturer. And it's done. You know, like like with any things some people take more than that. And some people don't. And that's totally okay. And also, we're all learning mums and dads we all learn when none of us are just just born to be parents. Yeah, that's so true. And like, even with my two kids, like, I've adjusted the way I've parented them, because they're different people. So I'm learning as I go. Yeah, because not every child is the same everywhere, like every person is different. So it's an interesting concept, isn't it? I love all this creep. I love this stuff like this. Just why? Why do we think like this? When we started, get addicted to it, and sometimes people are, my friends are annoyed at me, because you know, you kind of have a normal conversation. You're like, Oh, I love that. Other things that you've sort of delved into, on your page? Obviously, politics, but diet culture? is a good one. Can you share some of your interesting thoughts about that about? Oh, yeah. And I noticed earlier, when you described yourself, you said, I've got a smaller body. Yeah, I live in a smaller body. Yeah, sorry, are you live in a smaller body? I'm not an expert on this whatsoever. The with this, just like, you know that I would never say that I am the person that everyone should be listening to about racism. I'm not the person that people should be fundamentally listening to about diet culture. But I do think that it's a really important thing to talk about. But look, it's women that are people that are living in larger bodies, that really the ones we should be listening to, because they're the ones that experience, the experience, prejudice, and fat shaming and all these things. So I'm trying, I'm really in the process of learning as well, I think. Because, you know, this idea that to be thin is good. And to be bigger is bad. This is something that's so deeply ingrained, you know, that like, somehow these are moral things. And also, somehow these are things that we can totally control. And, and if you're not, then you just need to try harder with them. So, yeah, so yeah, I like all of us, I grew up, just hearing from everyone around me, people are constantly criticizing themselves about their body, you know, and especially women, not only women, but especially women is such a collective thing we do you know. And then, of course, after you have a baby, it's the thing we do, and we just waste so much time focusing on our bodies, how much were the things we want to change and what we paid about our bodies and things like this. But the reason why I think it's important to talk about it as a diet culture, like as an ideology we have in societies because what we learn from fat people are people that are living in larger bodies. So I purposely use the word fat because, you know, when we grew up, we're taught you shouldn't use the word fat. It's like an insult to someone. And there are some activists like Aubrey Gooden who I don't know whether, you know, the podcast maintenance phase, it's one of my favorite podcasts. Yeah, yeah. You know, she, she kind of says this, this is a descriptive term. I believe that different people kind of have different ideas like about this. But what I've learned is that, yeah, it's just a descriptive term. And as well as that to say things like I'm living in a smaller body, I'm or someone who's living in a larger body with saying that this is just the body we live in. We're not. We kind of haven't chosen this. And we know, it's just based on genetics. It's based on, you know, our stress levels. It's based on what our social context is, you know, how much money we have the availability of food, how much time we have to prepare food or exercise, what sort of weather conditions, we have just so many things we cannot control, we fundamentally cannot control it. And so I think it's so important to talk about how there's so much prejudice against people who are not thin, just fundamentally and this is quite a new thing that is being talked about now. And there's so much pushback against it because we have so much obsession with thinness and, you know, the things that people talk about that they you know, the prejudice that they face, even just simple things like to get medical care you would know, from listening to maintenance phase, you know, the stuff that Aubrey Gordon talks about and how people you know, as kids, they will be put on diets. And everyone says that, well, that's okay. Because they just, you know, we just want them to be healthy. And the psychological effects of that are just terrible. So I think it's so important to talk about. So while Yeah, you know, while I, as a person, of course, have gone through a process of, you know, learning to have more neutrality toward my body, and things like this, and I am really trying to teach my kid to have a positive relationship with food. So for nothing, this is good food. This is bad food. Often Intuitive Eating is a term that's caught that's used around this. I think, really, though, the fundamental thing is that we need to think about these power structures and how fat people are just completely completely, you know, they really suffer from inequality in so many ways, because of this prejudice. And someone pointed out to me correctly that, you know, on social media on Instagram, so many people talking about intuitive eating and talking about diet culture, are people living in smaller bodies, and often white women, you know, so. So we, you know, I, we can only say so much about this, it's not really our authority, I think we need to really have a lot more diverse people talking about this, and, you know, to really listen to them. Yeah, I think that's really true. Similarly, with, like, we're talking about before about how I sort of speak to my children about things, we found weight, like I I'm a fat person, I'm not ashamed to say that because there it's like saying, I'm, I'm tall, and I'm fat. You know, they're descriptive. Exactly. This. Yeah, this is the thing. I think, also, it's like about everyone's own relationship with themselves, like, whatever, I guess whatever you choose to identify with. Yeah, is important. Yeah. But like, I explained to my kids that, you know, I showed my, my youngest son's never seen me, in a thin body, I was, I have a different time in my life. My weights fluctuated. But I showed him a picture the other day of when I was my lightest, and he couldn't believe it was me. And I said, I'm exactly the same person that I am, as I was, then like, I'm actually a happier and more settled person now. It doesn't change, like, you know, whether I'm good at something or bad at something, maybe, you know, Netflix is different. But you know, I'm still, but it's not like a moral a moral thing. It doesn't say that. Because, like, Okay, I live in a smaller body, but I'm not good, athletic, you know? And I'm not my diet isn't the best, you know, that's the other thing that like, no one ever is sort of looking at me eating pancakes or something and being like, oh, you know, gee, you should pick a healthier option or something. I mean, of course, like, maybe my grandma did, because, you know, like, that's that generation. And that was like, you know, just so ingrained for them that they're always kind of policing and worrying, maybe you will get bigger, maybe we'll you know, like as it but you know, no one, you know, for fat people that it's a public thing that can go in, you can go in public without being harassed in this way. And this constant microaggressions. And yeah, so I just don't think it makes sense. Because, yeah, people don't know what anyone's diet is. And also, it's irrelevant. totally irrelevant to other people what someone eats. I mean, I just think tying the moral thing as if it makes you a good or bad person is absolutely absurd. Like, how is it got to do with anyone else? Or whether you're a good person? Because like I said, it also depends on so many factors like, like, ultra if you're, you know, if you're tired parent, if you don't have much money, or so many things, and even if you even if you do have the ability to eat healthier and choose Not, not the word health isn't very good to eat more whole foods or something. If you don't, it's your own choice. You know, like, just like people choose to do different jobs, people choose to have leisure time doing different things. And it's funny, though, like, we talked before about this, neoliberalism is all about the self, but we're so obsessed with everybody else. It's like, yeah, there's you so big, like, has it always been? Yeah. People always. I think, I think it has, yeah, I don't like this something about, you know, like, I don't agree with the idea that, you know, society is worse than ever, in that sense. Because, you know, also even when we talk about neoliberalism, look, there were periods where we had greater social welfare and things like that, but fundamentally looking back In history, it was much worse, you know, because we were like, kings and staffs. We were there was just slaves and slave owners, you know. So that was funneling until there are still slaves in the world. You know, there are a lot. So, yeah, we have to put it in context like that. And when it comes to beat judging each other. Yeah, I think that now we just, it's more public because we have these avenues. But look, when we, I mean, I don't really know what happened before writing was a thing. But you know, you look at these old publications from few 100 years ago, newspapers, that it's all gossip there, it just does seem to be this human thing. to gossip about each other, and to compare and to judge. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, we, we kind of do do that. Yeah. And, but the difference is with this constant, it's more constant now. Because we just can't, I mean, think about the amount of different opinions and messages we're reading a day, or we're listening to a day, it's just so much. So I think that's why it can feel so overwhelming. Now, I'm gonna lead this into something that I talked to all my guests about, is this concept of, of guilt, or particularly mom guilt. Yeah. And the more that we talk about it, the more I believe that the whole culprit of it is this, what society expects us to be as mothers, so that we think we've got to do so we put these on ourselves, and when we don't meet them, then we feel bad about it. So it's an external construct. It's a thing that's coming at us. And I feel like, because of social media, it's just heightened the whole thing, because we can see so much more, you know, before we heard that, such and such down the road was doing such and we go, oh, shouldn't do that. Blah, blah, blah. There's she might not have known that. But now, it's, you know, people can tell each other what they think of them all the time. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You're right. It's, it's just constant. And also, it's, it's really difficult, because I think as well, we seek out connection on social media. And I think, and I think that, you know, for isolated mothers, we do kind of want to see others that are in the position like us that are also mothers at home with their kids, especially when they're little you know, when you're on maternity leave, or when you're in that really difficult phase, then you really want to think like, and you and like you said before, you're thinking what is my life, all I'm doing is Baby Alive. So on the way Yeah, and that is kind of maybe part of the reason why we do also we're so vulnerable. And then, and then we look to these images of other people and social media. And I think that there is just there are parts that are really positive, and I kind of try and stay stick to them. There are parts that are really saying that, you know, we just need to be good enough parents, and you know, we're all doing our best. And then there are parts that you know, they'll have this really nicely curated feed where it just shows them doing this lovely activity with the kids and they're all wearing matching outfits, their hair is washed, and they're like, there's no mess. There's no crumbs on the ground. There's no like, and you know that it's not real. It's not real. It's not real. But on the other hand, like when you're in this vulnerable mental position, you kind of can think how can how can I live that way? And how come I don't? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like, for me personally, I don't know. I think in those early days of being a mom, like in the newborn phase, I never I never thought that you know that that was real. I never thought I want it to be like that. But at the same time I I definitely did. And I still do experience mom guilt just thinking because we have these were socially conditioned, like you said, to have certain ideas about what a mom should do. We have. I think that this is ideal of a mother that it's not even it's not a person. It's like this thought, you know, that we all have in our cultural thinking. And we compare everything according to that. And it's this idea that's been perpetuated by patriarchy so not by men, but by this idea that women are a certain way and that women are meant to do this. And women play a big part in perpetuating it as well. You know, women also perpetuate patriarchy we all we all do. But because this is they are ingrained thinking. And yeah, so I, I would think, you know, I think I would compare a bit more with like other mothers I saw around, you know, like, why does she look so well dressed and I'm wearing trackies and haven't washed my hair and have stressed pimples or whatever, you know, like, or why do I feel? Yeah, or I don't know, when my daughter started becoming an older baby. You know, my daughter is on super energetic side is she's amazing. She, I mean, she's just full of life and ready to go all the time. And it's completely amazing. Like, people always comment on it, but it's tiring. Yeah. Like, I mean, even. And so once she started, I don't know, I was so obsessed in love with her and still am. But as a baby, I sort of said to my husband, like, do you think? What would you think if I took longer maternity leave? So I am in a really lucky position that we've sort of could choose how long I would stay home with it. I don't get paid for any of that. And we're not like, in a insanely good financial position. Like we sort of said, Then during this time, we won't save. But of course, having said that, compared to most women in the world, that's a hugely privileged position. Like for me, for us to even say that. So yeah, and he was like, Yeah, of course. But you can, however long you want, you know, maybe till two or whatever. And then she got close to one. And I was like, starting to think, Oh, my God, I cannot handle these days of constant energy, like, because it would just be like, if we were at home, she'd be running around, and she would be kind of annoyed. And it makes sense, because she's, like, pent up, she needs to get this energy out. There's not enough to do in it. We live in an apartment. That's not enough. You know, in Australia, houses are super common. And a lot of the world people live in apartments, and it's fine. But um, yeah, and we would, I would take it apart twice a day, and it wasn't enough. And I felt really guilty because I was, like, I love my daughter. I should be loving this, when actually it doesn't make sense. But just because I love her doesn't mean I need to love every second of it. Yeah, yeah, we ended up sending out a daycare. And we're all she asked if she is thriving, you know, I, and I'm a much better parent for that. Sometimes I do still feel guilty. You know, my husband has to remind me. And it's interesting that he reminds me, he's, he's a very good feminist. You know, he, he understands why he wouldn't say that, because I think he always he doesn't like to say, you know, like, as a man, he doesn't want to say that. But I think he is aware of all these things and sort of tries to think critically about it. But anyway, he says to me why you feel guilty? You know, she loves it. She wants to be there. But then I don't know just decide. I guess it is just this cultural ideas of like, oh, but she should be with me, even though it doesn't make sense. If she was like, the other day she was home sick with me. And we're both are not in. Too much. You know, she wants to be there playing with other friends and doing the million activities they do at daycare. Yeah, I can't provide her with like, 10 activities a day. Yeah. Yeah, look, what you're saying is so, so true, and so relatable. It's that notion that, like you said, we love our children, but we don't have to love every second of this mothering roles that were you know, an expectation. We love every moment. We don't love every moment of anything, but yet, but then he was coming back. We're hauled over the coals if we say, if we publicly you know, say, Oh, gee, this was really hard today. Well, you want to become a parent. Yeah. Many people whinge about their job. Like they love their job. But jeez, I had a hard day. Oh, well, you shouldn't winter is reserved for us. Of a year, this is our natural role. That's what we're supposed to be doing it. Yeah, it's absolutely ridiculous. And I think that, yeah, like, like, we really need this outlet to just say this is hard, sometimes just like everything, and also fundamentally that, like, society doesn't really support mothers. And so because we don't have that village, because we don't have the it makes it that much harder. That's for sure. I don't know how many of us do it, to be honest, when you think about everything we've got going against us. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I don't know. I feel like I'm, you know, in such a privileged position, and I'm really tired all the time. And like, you know, people do that so much harder, you know, and I had to know, it's, I'm just in awe, really, but they shouldn't have to, they shouldn't have to, you know, yeah, that's so true. It's frustrating, isn't it? Now I want to ask you, there's a great reel that you made a few weeks ago. It's great. I'm really that bad. This is a big thing for me, because I actually want to, I want to talk about this again, because this is like this obsession, absolute obsession with AD generation. I feel like all parents at the moment, and yeah, look, if you look at it, if you look at it in a historical context, like I say, I'll just kind of repeat what I said in the real because I mean, it's true that every generation has this crisis about some new technology that's going to destroy young people in the time of the ancient Greek philosophers like Plato, so this is like, about 2000 years ago, they thought that writing was going to destroy everyone, because the oral tradition was how we, how they communicated. And you know, through memorizing, that was a huge thing. Because of course, if you didn't memorize, then how were you going to ever remember anything? And how would ideas ever be passed on so that I will now we write it down, now the kids aren't going to remember anything, how, you know, this is going to be a catastrophe. And then, of course, then the printing press, we have books proliferated, that was a crisis. And then of course, the ones we know, which are like, radio, radio was a disaster. Now, of course, it's funny, because people think the radio is like a good alternative to screen time. Not watching. People just gonna be listening all the time. And then they're sitting there listening, and they're not moving around. And then TV, of course, which still goes on, and then the internet, you know, so I just think that yes, there are these recommendations that we have. But when we obsess over them, we're just really not thinking in context. Because we're, we're not thinking about the fact that, like, the alternative, we think that the alternative to screentime is like this, this 100% quality time with a parent or with some other caregiver, where they're just flourishing, and they're, you know, they're just absolutely taking everything in and learning. And, you know, for like, in the past, the alternative was probably working for a lot of children in the world. Now. The alternative is working, bored, either working in paid labor or working at home helping with the helping maintain the home. Or if it's not that, you know, it won't necessarily be this quality one on one time, all the time. And even if we talk about, even if we don't talk about that, we just talked about our own context. Then it, I just don't think it's the worst thing in the whole world. They don't. Kids don't need 100% quality time, all the time. It's impossible. And you're also going to have parents who are kind of regulated and feeling okay, and, and I really think it's part of this mom guilt, it feeds into this mom guilt thing again, because realistically, how are you going to cook dinner? With, you know, a few kids around you, especially if they're young? Or how are you gonna, you know, get all chores done? Or how are you audits? Maybe you just need to relax. It doesn't even need me that, you know, maybe you just need a minute. Yeah. You know, without them doing this. And I think that often the people that do do no screen time ever, at least the ones that I've heard are in a really privileged position, you know. And so then for people who have juggling so many things just feel so bad that their kids watching TV. I just think it just, I don't know, it's just guilt for nothing. And also, I just think that when we look back historically, like, maybe we won't be like, Oh, my God, look, they were staring at screens all the time. Maybe because that's just part of our world. Yeah, like springs are part of our world. Yeah. And the truth is, I think if you don't give your child a little bit of access to that technology, they're gonna get left behind at school. That's the other thing. Yeah. Because Because actually, they need to learn these skills. And that's kind of the approach we're taking that we're going to try and as soon as we can I don't know what age they started at, like four or five or I haven't looked into it yet, but it tries to do like kids coding for. Yeah, yeah. because, I mean, that's kind of gonna be really important. And yeah, that's the future. That's the world now, and I don't know anything about coding. And so I'm kind of like, in the dark already, you know. And so I just don't think that, yeah, that track, we're trying to protect our kids from things. I think rather, we just need to think how we can nurture them to safely and, and in a nice way, use those things. This is a really long bow to draw. But it's like, in the times when you'd say to teenagers don't have sex, it's like, well, they're gonna have sex, so teach them how to use a condom. Right? So Right, exactly, you just say just don't use it. And then they're gonna go on the internet themselves. Or watch shows? Well, anyway, they watch shows on the internet, go on social media, whatever themselves, and they're gonna have no understanding if you don't teach them, like how to tell if something is factually based How to tell if something is safe, you know, or something that is comfortable for them, you know? Or how to ask you if it's something uncomfortable on the internet happens to them to tell you and yeah, exactly like this creepy purple, they're selling to me or something. Instead, they'll just hide it. And then they're getting more on. Yeah, yeah. So I'd say waiting until they're teenagers to talk about their safety on the internet, and to let them have access. I think it doesn't make sense. That's not to say that I'm gonna let my kid sit there and do anything on the internet. Yeah, of course not. But but you got to, you've got to give them I think, begin was small levels of freedom and make it bigger and bigger in ways that they can cope with. Yeah, and it's no different to like, if you sent your kid out a little, a little toddler out into a big kid's playground, or, you know, just gonna go get run over and go sit and drink your coffee and not watch you know, it's, it's a part of life and trying to do it in a safe way. So your child's protected and, and if that's important, that communication to like, to bid for them to come to you and say, Hey, this happened, what do I do? Or how do I navigate this? Or, you know, it's so important that they keep talking to you? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you, of course, would have so much more experience with this. For me, this is all theoretical, and just thinking about it. Because I know it's so hard for parents to work, navigate this whole online thing. But like you said, we just got to, we got to acknowledge this is the world this is the world they live in. They don't, you know, they don't remember a world before the internet. You know, we, you and I remember when it shows our age, but we remember, you know, I had the time before the internet. And so I really think of it as something that happened. They don't think like that. They're just like, yeah, that's the world like when I my toddler she has she's on a tablet. And I don't think that it's some huge disaster that she knows how to, like change the video or something. You know, she can press it as like, yeah, like, because that's just like she's learning all these other skills in the world. Yeah, just letting her do that. Yeah, of course. It's so much easier for her. Yeah. And yeah, it's a story I often reflect on my seven year old we were talking once about how we used to have our phones on the wall so you remember to pick up the phone it only went a certain distance like the cord was stuck to the curly cord Yeah, and he said how did you play your games while it was stuck on the wall? I'm like what? Because had it because he's imagining I've got my phone stuck on the game's amazing I love it. It's not normal world that didn't have this stuff in it and it got it blows my mind like how different because especially because we live in a time when technology progressed so rapidly and now it's kind of seems like it's a little bit plateauing again, like we haven't you know they're trying to do like VR and things like that now but but you know, within the last kind of 20 years it's just been massive with the smartphones and with how fast the internet is and things like this. But yeah, it's so funny. This is really good channel on YouTube, which is something like teenagers try out old technology or something. Yeah, yeah, I know what you're a funny how like they're trying to use a video player and they're trying to work out like how you would put it in. And the funniest thing is when you know that cord comes out, you know the tape or whatever. The real inside it comes out and every one of our generation discuss art because then you have to fix it with a pen. I love that. There's a post it's like what's the relationship and they show? Only certain faithful over certain days you'll know what you find mental part of our life and now like, yeah, they just have no idea what it is. And yeah, it's okay to because, you know, things change and we don't need to, like be romantic about it, but I think you know, because but yeah, it is funny. It is quite incredible, but I think that they're gonna be, you know, do amazing things with this technology is such capability. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And again, I think if your kids not aware of it or understands or knows what even what it is like that is the future they will they will get left behind that's not present. It's literally sorry. Yes, it is. It's the present. It's happening right now. And if you can't engage in that way, you are just not going to be involved in the conversation, which is Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Bla bla what what platforms are you on? I know you're on Instagram. Are you on? Yeah. Yes, I'm on Instagram. I've just started a YouTube as well, because I wanted to do longer videos. Because obviously, all of these concepts. I think it's really fun. And I really like it that I can communicate things to people in a really short way on Instagram, but I'm, yeah, I'm on YouTube. So I'm, I'm, yeah, so you can find me there. And I'm on Twitter as well, if you use Twitter, and I'm just, I'm just developing my website, I hope that it will be out soon. And my kind of hope with this whole project is and this is why I started this whole thing is I wanted to move toward or incorporate doing courses for parents and really for people in general, but focusing on parents like feminism for parents and different critical thinking for parents things like that, and provide different resources. So yeah, I'm really working a lot on that at the moment. Yeah, excellent. I love that. I'll put all the links in the shownotes for people if they want to find you. I've just found that I mean, I'm still learning. I'm still learning. It's good fun. My. Yeah, it's good, fun. Look, thank you so much for sharing your ideas with the world and for communicating in a very non condescending manner. It's really lovely. Honestly, I think if there's one thing like, we're all learning, and I just, I don't know, we're all learning and yeah, and the more we can all talk about things, the better, I think but it's been so nice. Thank you so much. Yeah, no, no worries at all. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for mums of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Bianca Richardson Australian illustrator, watercolourist and graphic designer S1 Ep22 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Bianca Richardson is an illustrator, watercolour artist and graphic designer from Mount Gambier South Australia and mum of 2. Bianca studied graphic design and made this her core business, creating websites, logos and branding for clients, Bianca has maintained her own art practice, her favourite mediums being watercolour, ink and pencils as well as using her iPad Pro. Her relaxed, illustrative style has garnered attention from her corporate clients in recent years. Her blog "Just Draw More Bianca" was born in 2010 as a message and reminder to herself, to just keep drawing! Her fun spark and humour shines through to this day with this name remaining as her online identity. **This episode contains discussion around anxiety** Connect with Bianca on her website and instagram Follow along with The Portrait Project Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity for day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram and to get in touch with the podcast. All music used on this podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respect to the relationship that traditional owners have with this land and water, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. My guest today is Bianca Richardson. Bianca is an illustrator, watercolor artist and graphic designer from Mount Gambier, South Australia and a mom of two. Bianca studied graphic design and made this her core business creating websites logos and branding for her clients. Bianca has maintained her own art practice over the years, her favorite mediums being watercolor, ink, and paint shows as well as using her iPad Pro. Her relaxed, illustrative style has garnered attention from her corporate clients in recent years. Her blog, just draw more Bianca was born in 2010 as a message and reminder to herself to just keep drawing her fun spark and humor shines through to this day, with this name remaining as her online identity. Today, I'd love to welcome to the podcast. Bianca Richardson. Thank you so much for coming on, Bianca. Thanks for having me, Alison. It's a pleasure. You're an illustrator and a graphic designer. How did you first get into that sort of creativity? When I was in high school, I guess I always loved drawing illustrating, and I, you know, ideally, I think I wanted to always be an illustrator, but I found that graphic design was the career I could follow up with those kinds of skills, and then maybe potentially look at illustration later on like I am. Now. I studied multimedia. So that was like a mix of like websites and a bit of animation and video and design work as well. So that's fell into that kind of career path. Like I had a few mentors in that field that, you know, inspired me and I took that on. And I've loved it, like graphic design has been great. But I've always had that urge to draw, like, I really enjoy drawing, I get a lot of satisfaction out of people enjoying my drawing. And I think the big turning point was in 2010 I started a blog just to keep myself going it was like a Blogspot blog just drove all the anchor I called it just to keep myself going. They had there's a project called illustration Friday that every Friday they'll bring out a topic and you draw anything based on that topic it was a really cool community. So I got into I get into that and then just sort of snowballed from it like I had I sort of have graphic design and separate am I drawing blog was separate two separate things. And then I think more so about four or five years ago clients started seeing my drawing work and wanting that included in the designers that kind of merged more there so slowly happened like it was a real slow burn it still isn't slaving but people wanting my art more than my graphic design lately is that that's that's really cool. Yeah. Touching on your the name that you that you give yourself just your more Bianca is that sort of like a message to yourself like I can't let it go now. I love it. Like I kept thinking I'll change my name because gone to my own name, but I'm like, I just love this. It's just so honest. Like that's what it was for me in 2010. And it still is now so just drum all the anchor. Did that sort of tie into any particular period in your life? Where was it around being a mum or? Yeah, was there any trigger for that that you you wanted to encourage yourself to draw more? No, it was pretty kids. My husband was mad about triathlons and Ironman at the time. So we started to blogs he was because because everyone kept asking us like how is Toby going with this training? So I had a blog how is Toby going? And it's brilliant. That's true. We go let's just check that little life stock of personality and humor like that, that interests me like I'm very I'm not. I'm not clean cut professional. Or be dork. I love that. I'm sure they'd be Yeah, there'd be plenty of people out there. You know that want you services that would be the same that bit of quirkiness that you know bit of fun and yeah, yeah, so really, yeah. relate to a lot of people I think what sort of mediums do you work in with you? I like good. pencils like regular pencils. Ink I love kind of ink. I love watercolor. More so the last few years I've really gotten into using procreate on my iPad. Like it's it's been convenient because I can take it anywhere. And it's lit up so I can do it at night. Once the kids go to bed. I can sit on the couch and coloring I can it's yeah, it's been really good for my lifestyle at the moment. I still like hand drawn with I love to actually draw on paper first and then transfer it across the iPad. And then color so it's a meet it's mixed radio, I guess is the classic term for let's launch it and talk about your family then you mentioned you you're able to do your procreate when the kids are in bed. How many children do you have? So I have two kids. I've got an eight year old daughter and a two and a half year old son. So bit of a gap between the two. I don't sleep that great. I don't really do that much work at night. But I like the idea of it. I think I use my iPad more driving around town for a daytime nap with my son out of pocket around the lake and get it out and do some coloring in. Yeah. My siblings were all five to six years apart. And like, I'm someone that needs my own space a lot. So I found like, I love the time my kids but I could my brain would explode if I had kids too close. I think I just I really Yeah, I I need my own time and I need sleep to be a better person. So yeah, please to the beautiful kids. I love them. It's a perfect fit for me. Yeah, good. Yeah. No sleep sleeps good sleeps important. So were you able to keep up with that after the birth of your first child? I was a bit of an idiot when I was lecturing at TAFE when I was pregnant with my daughter, and I was doing a semester so I decided to do one term before I had her and a term after thinking well, I'll be able to balance this out. I've done it. There's only six hours a week but my gosh, I went back when she was five or six weeks old. Three hour sessions and it was so hard like you know you breastfeeding so it's painful words your brain you have no brain it's just the mashed potato like it was just it was madness but in my head I had this idea that I've read all the books I'm at a pretty stable point in my life I'll be I'll be able to do all this and yeah, it was a massive Eye Opener it's one of those things you can't you can't really prepare yourself for Isn't it like like I said you can read the books but when you're actually in it, it's like it no one can even warn you about it because you take relief those books are a waste of time what those are very good burst skills or something. I had all these ideas like I'll take my stressful when I would take all these little things like I just lost. After you did that the summit stir when you returned back to TAFE were you sort of were you working on your own art as well at that time, or just focusing on your teaching? I did, I actually produced the calendar, like I was doing little desktop calendars. So I've managed to she was born in September, so I managed to get one out for Christmas time, which was pretty amazing. I had her laying on the floor in the office. I tried to do a little bit so I just think it helped my brain even though coming back from having a kid or having both times to get a computer and like, I don't know what to do anything anymore. Like, you know what form I can't remember anything like it takes me way longer than what it should it's just like becoming a new person again, it's really it's a really weird feeling. Just feel brand new. So did you run it? Sort of important then to get back into doing stuff for yourself? Was that something that that you wanted to do? You were focusing on? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I guess growing up like I drew that was my thing, just my time out my relaxing thing to do. So I need it in my life. Like I find if I don't even just a little quick sketching session. It's just something to get out. If I really feel wound up or don't move away. I need I need to use it like it's it's just my my time. And as clearly that my daughter is quite creative. So when she was young, she was always wanting to do stuff with me would collaborate and paint paper and collage stuff. And so fun. And like even now, Ultra, I'll be doing a client job. Normally, I've left it out on the table, and she'll come by and draw a picture next to me. Just this is excellent. Oh, God. Actually, I think I saw that on Instagram the other day that you posted something you're working on. And then there was your daughter's picture. That's wonderful, isn't it? And it's like she's seeking it out from you. It's like you're not. I mean, I know you would do it. But you're not saying Come on, come and do this. It's like she's actually you know, she's the one instigating it. So that's really lovely. Yeah. What about sorry, God. But I was glad to have a creative kid. Yeah. What about your other little one? Hey, likes to join in. So we'll get the day we painted baubles for the Christmas tree. We do a lot of bits and pieces. But I remember a few a few months ago my daughter had gone to the dentist has had a procedure coming up she was nervous about so she ended up drawing a picture of her mouth that was open with teeth and other dentists instruments just for her to cope with it. Oh, no, that was really clever way about using art to deal with feelings. And then my son comes along and he liked it it was a dental instruments that she designed just you know, his mouth just seemed great. But how mature is that though? Like she's got a real gift, hasn't she? That's what she does. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's pretty special to you what is your day to day sort of art life or artwork? Clients? How does that sort of look today? As you as you move through each day, I majority of my work at the moment is my design work. I have a couple of days of daycare. So that was really good. I was really funny about daycare. My first I just found I was scared of the germs. I was scared of everything. So she did family daycare this time around. I was working in that and it was just mental because I still have to do school pickup. So there was like I had to have a nap by certain time to get working. And it was very, very, very, just it was silly, but I've had my son in daycare or childcare this year, and it's for two days. Wagan it's been so helpful. Like, even though today I left him and he's upset, which is sucky, but it just helps. I don't know like I've got a block of time now to work. So I do majority graphic design work. I still try and fit in my illustrations at the moment, the Christmas coming up and doing a lot of help home portrait commissions. That's my little outlet, the art is good. And I get enough satisfaction by doing people's memories at the moment that I've built. I've got a fix in my illustration fix going on. Yeah, I got like some other projects in line with April, Hague set up this portrait project that I'm part of, for the next six months with a group of like, 10 other women and I just signed up to that I thought, you know, I need just good to learn new things and meet new people. And yeah, out of my comfort zone. So I'm excited about that. Yeah, I was actually chatting to Julia, yesterday, we recorded her podcast, and she was telling me about it. And I thought that sounds amazing. Because it's gonna be, it's gonna be incredible for people like Julia said, she doesn't paint portrait, so it's going to be challenging for her put her out of her comfort zone. And it's okay, it's going to be amazing to see everyone's different styles and everyone's take everybody's take on on everybody else as well. But I did put out to receive how you're gonna feel about having your head out in the world. Yeah. That's a bit confronting, sort of, do you feel better? Are you okay with that? I do. I'm very, I wasn't very self conscious person. I guess I'm working on it. So I'm trying to be like, oh, like I'm choosing I think, to do myself. So it'd be an exploration of myself. So I can just extract as I want. Yeah, I'm looking like you might look like nothing. Someone completely did. The back of my head. Hey, that's cool. Yeah, there you go. We find it's really it's really out of the comfort zone. But there's no undo button when I'm, I don't just do a painting. So it's gonna be fun. That's really exciting. It was amazing models in the group to like, it's yeah, you're working alongside some really, really talented people. So there's heaps to learn? Yeah. Do you get daunted at all by that? Or do you just straight out see it as just an email? I was like, I went and spoke to Juliana, like, I don't know, like, I'm not an artist. I felt like she was like your dig? For me, and I'm like, what about that to lose? Like, she's asked me, I'm just like, yeah, that's, you know, I've always just downplaying myself, I was like, Oh, you just do you know, but I enjoy that that sort of is a fine artists all look good for you. I'm, that's, I'm really pleased you're doing it. Because like, personally, I like I love your style of drawing. And I think that's the thing with that, like, there's so many different styles and so many different ways of representing things. And like, this is something I'm learning to, as I go go through this project, just sit, you can do whatever you want. You know, like, there's no, there's no limits on stuff. And it's so liberating and, and amazing. So yeah, no, I'm glad you're doing it. Like I like to say I can't wait to see everybody's it's gonna be awesome. Because I do follow you on Instagram, I see the houses pop up. When someone gives you a photo of a house, it's obviously special to them. Do you sort of take that take that on board? You know, when you're, when you're illustrating? Does that sort of seep into you a bit that emotion and the connection? Yeah, absolutely. And I try and ask them things that make that home the home. Like, if you're taking a photo that's recent, it won't have things that they you know, the special flower or there was a special chair at the front or you know, there's a bird that regularly visits like all those things. Make it the home. Yeah, so I'm doing now at the moment, there's heaps of like, I'm actually doing one that's the 70s home in Queensland. So they're going back over old photos and doing the home back in the day and it's really cool. I just, I love hearing people's memories. Like I don't know, I really it's fulfilling so I'm, yeah, I'm gonna really focus next year on pushing it a bit more on getting a website that's up just years kind of fell in my lap at the moment. We're not feeling like I've worked for it, but it's like I haven't quite streamlined yet, but I will focus on that next year. Yeah, really? really love it like a lot of sense that satisfaction out of it. Yeah, absolutely, I can totally relate to that. I think it's it's really special and then I guess the people couldn't appreciate that the amount of work that's gone in not just the the physical drawing of the work but you know the effort that you've put into it to find out these other details and yeah, it's really special. Yeah, make sure no one requests horses in this table over this just have to like swishing that's really cool Do you have family around you in the mail? Like, do you have support, you know, down at Millison, or, you know, people around you that can can help you when you, you're trying to get work done. And, you know, you just need the kids out to be here. My family, my parents are still in Millison. And my in laws live in medical area, and my sister lives in the area. So I call on all them a lot. And lately, I've got a lot to just because it's coming close to the deadline time for the year. But they're all really helpful. But I'm very, very lucky to have a support network like I do. And I've got a good relationship with my mom and sister that I you know, I asked them everything, anything, you know, it's, it's good, it's really helpful. And my sister actually, she had her first child 13 days after I had my second and we've like, got, you know what it's like we forget everything about having a baby, that she's been really helpful, which is actually a good I didn't have a mother's group again, the second time around, she was a good friendship for me to have because you just become lost again, like you're going back. You're my other friends have all had their second kid or whatever, or no kids and they're just, you know, at that level, we're all going back to newborn land. They're having my sister was so helpful. Celia, she's still reminds me of things. I just overlooked, I guess. That's about 10 of us, we still catch up where we can like they really were just good people. You're like me because I would wrap up to a mother's group. And I had to go to TAFE after the lecture, so I'd be all dressed up ready to go to TAFE which is like you just looked like you had your life so together like that's funny that's heavy and honestly I just shit scared like what am I doing? What am I do we have perception of me or these new mom who just had a life all sorted and was able to like rocked going to the work and it was not like that. That perceptions and interesting thing, isn't it? It's it's just you see this little snippet of someone and you think you've, you've got it all worked out. Because you only told me like a year or so ago. What that is so funny. So like, if what do you think that's the same with social media, like people say people's posts, and think, oh, wow, their life must be perfect. They look like they've got their life together. Yeah. Me when I'm feeling not great. I can't handle it. I have to go on big following moments. I just can't like I know. I know that. It's all a glossy highlight reel. But just when you're not feeling level, it's not a good thing. Oh, yeah. I can relate to that. Yeah, it's gonna be more. Hey, people have to be more real, like. Yeah, I totally agree with that. It's like, it's like, what? What's the words? Like? It's like, Who are you trying to impress? Why do you think you have to do this? Why do you think you can be honest, and, you know, just show life as it is. And we all can go? Yeah, we agree with that. You know, it's weird. It's very odd these days anyway, because people were trying to get the most likes, so comments, so you know, views it's all about that now. It's very it's a very weird place. Like it's not just, I'm just here doing my thing. But most artists I follow are just like, I'm just gonna keep posting as I do. And it's awesome because their work is just wicked and it's normal. It's not trying to get it's not trying to you know, be viral out there for that little minute of fame like it's Yeah, download my group I think yeah, it's very genuine. Like yeah, yeah. Creating like you're not always it's not like you can have something to show every week or twice a week like they sort of want you to do is ridiculous like, you know at the moment all these homes I can't show you because their Christmas presents. Yeah have upgraded stolen I can't show because they you know early days of like some really cool stuff out because I have nothing really to show, but I'm just, you know, do what I can. Oh, yeah, I think that's a lot of pressure, I think that some people probably have to put on themselves to just be noticed. And yeah, everyone works in peaks and troughs, you'll have your moment. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? It's like some days and eight when, like, you know, goes hand in hand with your creativity, I suppose. Like, I mean, different for your situation where you actually got to work, you're doing a job. It's like, some days you would go, I don't want to do this today. I don't feel in the headspace. There's nothing creatively coming out of me. What do you do then on those days when when you do have a like a deadline? How does that sort of work? Created deadlines? Or crap? Oh, okay. Well, go go graphic designs. You just go play out for my first job out of study was working at a local magazine. So let to work really quickly. So even if i I hate being rushed, I you know, if someone says to me a sap that was like, serious, like, just, it's the worst thing to do, because you just, I can't do it quickly. But I hate that pressure. But I can do this. I just think I can do it. But you just don't get the best result. Because you can't have it all. You can't have the best product ASAP. So I still I get it done. I meet deadlines. I just might not be as satisfied as I could be. You've got to think about it a bit more. But with my permission deadlines, I've I've padded them out so much. Because you know like when you're a parent, your life's not just about you. It's about like to other people in the family, your husband as well. So it's up to you know, if one of them falls sick, that throws the whole balance out of my life, because that's what it is. So I've had it out heaps of time in between everything to make sure I can still reach the printer deadline for Christmas. Yeah. Yeah. It's just yeah, you have to plan because I don't know like, so far so good. We're all healthy. But I'm always worried about sending him into Chipotle, like, oh, my gosh we're just getting tired, like the weekends are getting a bit busier. And I think last week, he just started slowly getting a bit more sad than today actually cried as I was leaving, not usually it's a bit after I leave. I know. I'll check soon on the app, and he'll be playing and hopefully okay, but yeah, it's it's hard to clear that headspace to get to work. And I find that's the hardest part, I'll feel in a slump, you'll get a copy. And then I might just try and ease into it. Like I just I lose productivity because I feel trapped for doing it. But yeah, that that's leading into the sort of mum guilt topic. How do you feel about mum guilt? Oh, it is real. It is definitely, I observe it a lot with stuff. People around me say about others to like, Oh, she's doing this blah, blah. And it's like, maybe she needs to do that. Like, I used to probably be the same in thinking that and it's taught me a lot that that might be her out a lot that she needs just to feel like a human and be a better mom. So it's been a lot lots of work to pick up on your own, like, where you're being critical of others, where you're like, oh, that's maybe I'm envious of that. Or, you know, I don't really know her story, but it's because they're like, We can't do anything. So you can spend too much time with kids and not and not do anything for yourself. You can spend too much on yourself and nothing for your kids like it's it's a losing battle. to juggle isn't it? It's a constant juggle. That is, I guess that ties into the identity topic that I that I talked about, too is that you do have to have something for yourself that you're going you do. And I do like I think I worked out like I my time out when I was younger was drawing and just I was a pretty like hit in the clouds kind of kid I must always had like a little bit of anxiety. So I'll draw and chill out. Until once I became a parent and had a few other triggers in my life and I wasn't drawing as much I realized, Oh, I do carry anxiety. I just have to find my way of dealing with it because I was guest I was always able to do it myself before without having a distraction of a kid. So to me it's just a like a peaceful, peaceful place to go like I you know, I've had a pretty you know, come by in life but it just it's my little. I overthink I'm a big worrier. Like, you know, I'm petrified of my kids getting sick. I know. It's not a big deal, but for me taking my son to childcare is a sign that I can do it. So I How much of both like, yes, you can do these? Like, you know, like, there's germs, but there's not always germs. You know? Yeah, it's all those things to make me get over my fears. Yeah, I think you know, and like drawing, I don't think you could, you know, people who don't feel creative understand, but we need these don't worry, like it's just a little, you know, you need that time to just, yeah, it's good. It's like you've got, you've got yourself medicated, you know, this is your therapy to work through, you know, like you said, you know, your life, your life's great, you know, but whatever goes on between the ears is like, you have to deal with that in some way. It might not be affecting, you know, what's going on outside, in your home, everything's going great. But you've still got to sort this out for yourself. So yeah, using that as your therapy, to sort of, to give yourself a break to work through things, and then you come back fresh and ready to go again, you know, for the onslaught. Yeah. I was thinking, my major feeling sometimes of working, and art and kids. Feeling is frustration. And that's how we're thinking about it. Like, I think I was, because I get ideas and I want to act on them. Like, I'm not gonna go do this thing. You can have a whole weekend of just having an art retreat, frickin awesome. But I could ask and get that and get the sitter's and do it. But at the moment, I don't feel like I'm ready to do it. But yeah, this is finally I'm starting to do something like oh, you know, someone needs you know, it's just that flow. You don't quite get that stage as much anymore. But it's that point in my life. And I know that things change. And they'll be time and the kids don't want to talk to me for a week so we to call for me so my dad always said to me, like don't wish your life away because when we're second was a newborn. I was just like, let's just get 12 weeks. I know the first four weeks the hardest. I've countdown like eight weeks. Yeah, we're nearly there over halfway. Like, I was kind of, I was kind of wishing it away. Then I looked at my daughter because she was in reception at the time. And I'd look at it and like she has grown so much in this face. Like oh, here I am wishing this time away because I'm like, This is so hard. I just feel like a zombie then I look at her and I'm like she's changed so much like just slow down. So now I'm sort of got that you know, it's all phase I can I break it down to this is what it is like, I still am frustrated quite a lot, but I just have to Yeah. Isn't it it's like Yeah, yeah, it's I don't know how we do it. Honestly. It's just a It's screwing with your head every single day. Yeah. Sad you how you carry their sadness that you carry. Everything that's really it's really intense. Sometimes. You have a good run, you're like this is great. This is good. Yeah, to just get up and to go somewhere would be such a privilege. Like you know, I can't I get I think it was employment, that's for sure. Like my husband wanders while we get out when the dishwasher has been stacked so shapely because in the morning, then I have to then reclaim them. And I'm like, Well, this is time like in the morning. It's just like, bing bing, bing, bing. Have you brushed your teeth? You don't need any like, it's just you just the robot. I try like I try and get up earlier. I still get woken up for the night so I maximize my sleep like yeah, that's my that's what I need. Yeah, it's just it's a different life. Like as soon as you become a mom, it's just I don't know like it's a massive, massive shift in your life. You're so responsible for other people and still yourself you know, because you don't want to let yourself go when you have kids. I love how you put that I love seeing the kids be close to their family because I grew up like one side of my family's Italians is a quite a big family caught up all the time like Sunday lunches every Sunday. It was you know they did my grandparents, those family that were important to them. So yeah, I've always grown up with lots of cousins and the other side to like always close cousins as well. There had heaps of cousins and my poor kids. They've got one cousin he might give you because the rest of the Victoria is still walk away FaceTime, but it's you know, I was so grateful for the dynamic they get they get to the grandparents here at least which is good because it helps. I don't know, it's family and friends are different. It's yeah, they're very lucky. Yeah, yeah. And it's lovely to see your own parents, as grandparents. I love that. Watching my dad with my kids and thinking oh, he would have told me off for that but he's laughing Do your children influence your work at all? Yeah, they do. So when my eldest, I would always do a lot of things based on what she was learning. So I observed her in the, in the yard and she'd be wearing her like hooded towels and kids were just speaking on the painted stick. Like, we were painting the sticks. And she was like a little saucer. And it made me laugh so much. If you're a picture of her, then I'd draw a picture of her. And that point of time, we like all the questions you'd ask like, little picture, there's always speech bubbles, like we're going to Bunnings and all the random stuff. I always say. I'll just call it old memories for me. So I kind of I'm not very good at their photo albums. I've got them but I don't I find during a memory for me makes it more fun. So I'm actually my little nieces and nephews, etc. I've been drawing them at this point in their life for their birthdays. Oh, that's a little like keepsake of time for them. Yeah, that's so special. Yeah. So hope I've been, I would have to get a bit better at making people look like the people will be more I can see your real future for that. If you put that out into the world. There'll be so many people that would would pay for that for their kid. Yeah. Ah. Yeah, I find it hard because I cannot unless I know the person to helps me work out how to draw them. I find it tricky. Like I did my brother recently. And I found that hard, and he's someone that should really know how to draw. But I think about the life was pretty close. Yeah, I find that Yeah. I was like a certain kind of character. I draw like really, like long, tall, you know, big round heads. So I've got off sort of, you know, keep working on my character developments. Practicing just drawable. Do your children I mean, your daughter, does she? How does she feel about seeing yourself in those drawings? Is she get super excited? And yeah, she laughs Yeah. He or she regularly draws family pictures like and, you know, she goes through and changes their hair every year. She's a certain hairstyle. She'll draw characters like her or her makeup. She does. Yeah, it's a sort of a self. Kind of funny word. You know, that is like an exploration of yourself that you'll hear that point in time with who you are. So yeah, I think she doesn't find it embarrassing at the moment. So that's good. Yeah. That journey with a boyfriend and Darcy moon. Yeah. loves that. He loves seeing that too. Like he, he loves the art side of things like seeing the family pointing everyone out. And yeah, yeah. So hopefully I've just I'm not giving him a nod to just saying I got to be creative. So yeah, let's see, just find that see what happens. So I was doing my design work. I don't know if you've seen it, but it's all very, like, clean, you know, as design is like, clean vektory style. And I had a client, male at the old jail. And she's, I was doing their branding. And then she goes to me at one point, she's like, Oh, we want to have an illustrated map down of the jail and like, okay, cool. But I kept the first few designs I was doing was just much you know, I was doing it very graphic designer, like straight lines. Is that like the ad and make it more like you're like, we love it, but we want it to be like your style. Yeah. Okay, so that make it a little bit looser, which is like no, no, no, like, oh, you watercolor stuff you do on Instagram. We love that. So next minute, I just did inky watercolor. And it's exactly what she wanted. So she sort of made me realize that it doesn't have to be two separate entities anymore. Like it's not just design and illustration that can combine. It was realized really thankful to that because I just kept sort of thinking I'll just keep drawing for my own fun. And it's not going to cross over but majority of my work now They were going off. They want the illustrative aspect in their design. So, yes, she was the defining moment, that's for sure. I think it was about four or five years ago. And grateful because he sort of pushed me. Yeah. And a lot push because males are so odd, which is awesome. Oh, yeah. She kept she kept prodding, like, Oh, like this, you know, I like to try to wake up and I'm like, yeah, right, like people want this as cool. I have a project that I can't really say much about yet. Which is very exciting, because it's something will be super interesting, a massive learning curve for me. And yeah, I'm excited about doing it and lots of fun work. So that's happening next year, I was in the early early stages of planning now, I always have side projects going on, because that's a sound my brain rolls. Like, plans one day to do some project about the buildings. I love drawing as well. So I'm just slowly working out a project plan on that and how to attack that in the future. But I just keep that to the side, just slowly chipping away while I do my design work. Excellent. And always, always drawing. Just draw more Bianca. And every time I write that I have a little I have a little moment of like, oh, you know, yes, I can't let it go. I was like, Oh, I changed it to be accurate, just boring. But I just, I can't let go of that because it's exactly how I talk and how I've talked to myself like it's, it's me, so it makes me laugh. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us at the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Melissa Condo Francis Australian musician, singer, songwriter and educator S1 Ep13 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Melissa Condo Francis. Melissa is a singer/songwriter, collaborator, producer and performing arts teacher from Portland Victoria, and a mum of 3. Describing her genres as wide ranging as folk, electronica, jazz and alt pop, Melissa has performed as a duo, and soloist under the guise ‘ Sleuth ’, done international collaborations and released 4 albums as an independent artist, as well as producing and performing in an operetta. She talks about the way music has bonded their family, how she deals with criticism and finding 'your people', and the challenges of writing music with your significant other. **This episode contains discussions around mental health issues, loss of a parent and grief** Connect with Melissa on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sleuthmusic11/?hl=en Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Melissa's music used with permission Spotify Listen to all recent musical guests' tracks on this Spotify playlist When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Melissa Kondo France's Melissa is a singer, songwriter, collaborator, producer and a performing arts teacher from Portland, Victoria, and a mom of three, describing her genres as wide ranging as folk, electronica, jazz and old pop. Melissa has performed as a duo and a soloist under the guise of sleuth, she's done international collaborations and released four albums as an independent artist, as well as producing and performing in an operetta. On the episode she talks about the way music has gone to their family, how she deals with criticism, and finding your people and the challenges of writing music with your significant other. This episode contains discussions around mental health issues, loss of a parent and grief. Welcome, Melissa, it's great to have you on the podcast. Thanks for coming on today. Thanks for having me. So, for those who aren't familiar with your music and what you do, can you give us a rundown about the style of music you create and all that kind of thing? Yeah, so I perform and right under the artist name of sleuth, which is kind of a bit of a parody harkening back to my days in the police force, actually. But I did my music style would be eclectic, really. I've done everything from sort of folk music to electronica to hardstyle, drum and bass. What else would I have done, I've got a lot of jazz elements to quite a bit of my music, as well. And probably the more prolific music or this stuff that's been out there a little bit more than the other stuff that in the back catalogue, we'd be all pop. Yeah, it's yeah, it's really, really, I have actually been openly criticized for not picking a particular genre to stick with. But I actually like it. I do a lot of international collabs with different artists. And they're all from all sorts of different genres, which is great. So keeps it interesting. And it really pushes my creativity, I think, to be able to write two different styles. Hmm, keep keeping it keeping it really interesting. Yeah. How did you first get into music? I've, I can't remember a time when I haven't been a musician. I learned piano from age three. So sort of earliest memories. Piano from age three till about, I did formal lessons till I was about 1516 years old. And yeah, I just stuck with that, really, and a lot of music theory, had a fair amount of personal family stuff go on for about a decade after that, which meant that I was sort of not playing music or writing. And I never really, in that decade, pushed myself to do anything musically. And then just found myself in a sphere, I guess, after after meeting my husband, where I could pick it up again, which was great. So from about age 26 onwards, just re fostered that, that love of music again, and threw myself into it. guns blazing, wrote four albums, did a couple of reasonably reasonably local regional tours. And yeah, I was I was probably a bit old really to be. And I say that with a big smile on my face, because I don't believe in age, defining how creative you can be. But yeah, I was probably a little bit too old to be marketed that successfully to the current pop scene, but that's okay. It doesn't. It certainly didn't stop me doing what I was doing. And I guess I was very fortunate that I could write music as a hobby, which allowed me to be a lot more authentic with what I was writing rather than try and write to a contract. To feel obligated to push out the music. I just sort of got on a creative wave, wrote it as long as the wave lasted and fortunately Um, the right the wave sort of has subsided a little bit about probably the start of 2021. I stopped, I haven't, I haven't actually released anything of my own. Since then I've released collaborations with other artists, but I haven't. I haven't written anything since Lux was finished. That was my fourth album. So just having a bit of a rest at the moment and dealing with COVID and dealing with other other scenes. I think my life at the moment that are taking a little bit more of a forefront. School I have three children, I had three under four, which was insane. So they're currently aged 10, nine and six. So my daughter is 10 and my two sons, nearly nine and six and a half. And they are in grade four, three and one. So they're, especially with remote learning in Victoria because of lockdowns, it's pretty mentally consuming to try and get them through a school day at home. Yeah, they do. Amazingly, I think we, I was fortunate enough to be blessed with a very large, extended inlaw family. And so they've had a lot of one on one time, they've had a lot of reading, they've had a lot of the early groundwork done. So they're actually, I think, probably a dream, realistically, speaking up to homeschool, but it doesn't feel like that a lot. But yeah, I think they're, they're amazing. So where did the having the children fit in with doing your music, I think the probably the scene for me to be reviving my, my musical abilities and interest really happened when I met my husband. We've been married for 13 and a half years. And that love of music has never really left me but I sort of didn't have any space to really inject any any deliberate effort into it or any sort of passion. Obviously, a piano is not that easy to transport to various different rental properties and that sort of thing. So my, my family piano stayed with my dad. And I've only just last year got got the piano. But I've been playing on since and everything since my husband actually gifted me one. My kids I had sort of I started having children about two and a half years into being married. So my husband and I were writing mainly folk music together, and just playing very sort of small, intimate Restaurant and Bar gigs in the local music scene, which, incidentally, I found super hard to get into it. There's a lot of ego I think involved in particularly the regional music scenes in Victoria, I don't know if it's like that in the rest of the country. But yeah, the covers scene is alive and well. And certainly if you if you play covers, you can get gigs just about anywhere, if you're any good. But to play original music, it's really really hard to garner a local following. So that that probably was a factor I think in in it just being sort of more smaller, intimate stuff at first. And then I had my children wrote music at home around doing all of that. But I was lucky that I never really needed to have it as a career. So I've always had a wage from another sort of job, or alongside being a musician that I think I was fortunate as well that when I did invest money into the music, I was able to do it under a performing arts business, which was one of my side jobs. So a lot of my expenses were tax deductible. And I had a very clever accountant that knew how to make it work for me. So I was able and my husband was amazingly supportive as well, which was, which was really nice. I don't think many musicians have that level of acceptance of spending 1000s of dollars on musical equipment, so that you can record an album which of course no one's paying you to record either. So then to produce CDs then costs 1000s of dollars more, and then you're really just taking a punt on whether or not there'll be enough I often local support to buy those albums just to recover your costs. So I think I've been quite lucky. That one, I have the support from him. And then secondly, I was lucky enough to have won a couple of competitions, which funded the subsequent album that I was about to release. So I released my firt, my debut album, number anima, which was very favorably received, which blew my mind, I got a five star review from a julong music publication, then independent music magazine, which just did not expect that at all, I remember getting the email with a review and just bawling my eyes out in the kitchen because it had been 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of hours of work, unpaid, nearly, like, oftentimes causing a lot of marital tension because of the amount of focus and just sheer ignorance that I had of whatever else was going on in my family scene. Because I'm pretty singularly focused like that, I often shut things out. So I've had an amazing amount of support to allow me to do that for a period of time. So those albums, were partially funded by me winning competitions, which was nice. And then also the sales of CDs, which I don't recommend doing either. Like, I must admit, I have chosen a medium to produce albums, which is not really that financially viable, but I'm lucky that at least it's paid for itself. So as far as a hobby goes, it's not costing me any more money, which is nice. That sort of takes a bit of a strain off. But yeah, it certainly is a privilege that not many, not many musicians get to get to enjoy your children into music as well. Yeah, absolutely. They don't have a choice really. Sorry. I had, as I said, I had music lessons from age three. My kids have been learning piano from or how old were they? I think I started them at age six or seven on piano. So they all play piano and they all start read music. They all play a little bit of drums. My son Austin plays guitar and Zach is learning all those a bit little. Zara plays ukulele they write songs, my daughter actually wrote a couple of songs with a girlfriend, which is super cute. I think that she was eight at the time and her friend was nine. And they put it on YouTube. So because of course they're watching mum do these music videos at home and things like that. Because obviously, I don't have a marketing budget to spend 1000s of dollars on music videos. So I just do the home job variety. I had a rude wake up call the other day actually, on a complete side tangent, I put one of my we've just recently got a pretty nice TV at our house. It was my husband's tax return present to himself. And I put one of my YouTube clips up on the TV. And on a phone or a small laptop screen, you can't see various errors. And then you put it on a massive 76 inch television. And you can see all these little blotches on the screen where I haven't edited properly and all this sort of thing i Oh my God, that's just an amateur hour. So yeah, it's it's been interesting, but I mean, unfortunately I don't have to. I don't have to answer to anyone about my my home job music videos, which is nice. But yes, in answer to your question, getting back on topic, my kids are all very musical. And it's a great way of bonding I think, particularly with my husband and the boys. They play drums and they also play like basic guitar. So they we all swap over instruments. One of our we had a we built a music studio during the first big lockdown in Victoria in the downstairs part of our house and so we have a bass rig a drum kit thing, an electric guitar rig a couple of my since the piano, the interface for recording and a big PA system down there as well. And so we'll have that family band time a lot of the time down there and the boys will they love it. It's actually really good bonding for them with with their dad and I don't think they would have been able to do it quite so early. If it wasn't for them. Piano Lessons might be at the beginning, my husband was thought I was crazy for insisting that they do theoretical piano lessons from a young age because it was quite expensive. And so, and he just didn't see the value in it initially. And now a few years in when they're playing sight reading music themselves and learning blues riffs, with their left hand and being able to have show independence on the piano between their hands and play some really cool little little jams, which he can then put bass or guitar or drums to. It's yeah, it's quite a good bonding thing for him. And for them, as well. Oh, yeah. Do you find them that because they've learned piano? Because they know the basic skills? They can transfer that then into the other instruments? Yeah. For them? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Especially with with the drums. For Austin, he, he's quite gifted at drums. He's only eight years old, nearly nine. And he, he can play with a lot of independence between his feet and his hands. Which means that he can play quite complex drum beats, compared to basic sort of four on the floor, rock ACDC type sort of stuff, which is not criticizing it. It's a fundamental part of Australian music. And there's a reason why it's so successful and accessible as well. It's because it's just so simple. There's a lot of space in the music for everybody to ramp up the vibe when I listen to it, but he can actually do quite a lot of creative fills. And different. I'm not a drummer. So I don't know the correct word, but like different textures with different different types of drums, because of it, because of that independence. And that really transcends from from playing piano, especially blues piano. He's quite lucky. I wish I'd learnt blues piano rather than just classical. But that's where I can teach myself now I've been teaching myself drums, which is pretty exciting as well. So padded, it's great. It's very therapeutic, though. I hit that the other day. Actually, I did some interviews with some dads for like the Father's Day special. And one of the dads was like, yep, Jones is very therapeutic. Yeah, yeah. That was drinking wine, as well as the other thing I've been doing. I had a conversation about that, too. I think all of Australia is actually that that could be the way to get our economy back up and running. Apparently, we had all this wine that China wasn't buying a while ago. I'm sure it's getting put to very good use right now. We won't waste it that's for sure. Did the kids come along to gigs or some of the kids I suppose with the ages? Some of them have yeah, I've done like I said, I've done quite a lot of different types of gigs. So I've put together a few years ago, an opera ready. Operator actually, I think it's a so called deal was two events. I did one in Hamilton and one in Portland and one was called Baroque on the hill and Baroque by the bay. And that was in conjunction with Hamilton and Alexandra college. So I, I put together a performance with a student ensemble where a couple of their most gifted string students were able to join in I obviously had the the core of the ensemble with a professional musicians which were the teaching staff at Hamilton and Alexandra college. And I had a singing student of mine, Medline and Meister performed the soprano to Starbuck murder and I performed the Alto part. And so that was the the settings for those two performances were in churches, one in Hamilton, one in Portland. And so the kids were able to come to that, which was really quite special for me because obviously, there's a certain amount of discipline and rigor that is involved in performing a 45 minute opera. That, like, I just rehearse, I was obsessed with it. I was obsessed with most of my projects anyway, musically, but there was I think the kids knew every single note of the opera by the time by the time I actually performed it. They had had heard it being rehearsed every hour of every waking minute of every day. So you Yeah, they, it was good for them to see that performance get put together. And then there's been a couple of other performances that they've been out. And most of them, though, are in pubs and wine bars and things like that. So it's not really suitable for the kids to attend. And I think it's certainly, because we're not famous enough to have our own roadies to do all the gigs set up for us. gigs where we're having to stuff the car with all the PA gear and transport it means that there's no room for children in the car. So those gigs I've been very fortunate to have my inlaws out at, but my kids have certainly seen me on bigger stages like the foreshore, New Year's Eve and, and that sort of thing, where I've had a proper tech crew and that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, that's and they, I've talked to some parents whose children do that, do this. When you're stopped, your kids wouldn't be like that. And I think it's actually been, it's taken a long time for my daughter to decide that my music is actually okay. But there was a really special moment that I had, when my kids were doing swimming lessons at the local YMCA. And this is long time ago, right before the release of ombre anima, which was my debut album that I'd been obsessively working on the nine songs on that album. And so the kids had heard it all over the house, they'd had it in the car when I was dropping them off to school so that I could get an idea of what it sounded like on different speakers and all sorts of things. And they were very sick of it. And they were at the YMCA with school swimming lessons, and I had turned up with my laptop to sit on the side of the pool and do the good mum thing and watch my kids or pretend to watch my kids have swim lessons. And so I had my headphones in, and I had my laptop there and I was listening to music and rehashing different bars and that sort of thing to just see what what sort of mixing I'd need to adjust on it. Not an optimal mixing environment. I know. But I was. It was my first album, give me a break. And I had heard I heard over like it was so it's such a surreal moment. My kids were in the pool behind me. I was sitting was poolside and then all of a sudden on the PA system of the YMCA can blaring my song in the dark. And I didn't realize at first I was sick because I had headphones in and that was the song I was working on. I was like what's going on here. And I took my headphones out and I looked over and the local water aerobics class had chosen that song because they obviously knew I was there to do their water aerobics class. And so they just bled it at the top of their of their system through the YMCA and my kids borrow in particular was sitting in the pool doing a lesson and she's gone. That's my mom's song. And so I hear this this big, like all the water aerobics ladies started clapping me from the other side of the pool and then my daughter is gone. That's my mom's music. So I think she suddenly realized that it wasn't such an uncool thing to be like to write music and to actually have people listen to it. I think she finally realized that it was actually something that people enjoyed and that they appreciated. Even if she didn't Yeah, they often sing my stuff which is nice to hear to also realize that other people value what you're doing exactly yeah, that is the big that was the big moment but it was it was quite a special moment for me because I not only was it really quite surprising and confusing for me to have it not playing in my headphones and playing beside me. Yeah, to have just audiences from all like, in so many different ways in that moment. It was really nice. Quite a weird experience but yeah, that's the lesson story yeah I talk to all my guests about mom guilt and I put it in a quote. What how do you feel about mom guilt? I think it's very alive and well and prevalence. And I I guess I just had to decide that I didn't care about it. I have have actually had a lot of flack over the years for I think I got I got told at One point that I was handling my children to their dad. And yeah, so there was that comment. I think I've actually been pretty heavily criticized by other local museums as being ruthless and being overly competitive and quite a lot of other things. Because it seems like a lot of people, I guess that's not just a mum thing. That's also a an Australian thing. I think we dislike anybody that plays a big, we have to play small. Because otherwise we step on too many people's toes. And for me to sort of, and I really, it really graded with me, particularly that one, I think there was this idea that I was I was too old, or I was too, too aggressive, or I was too Ultra focused, and I needed to be sort of more. I needed to be more flexible on some things, which I actually didn't think I needed to be more flexible on because they were my standards. So I've had a lot of flack from that along the way. But I, as far as with parenting guilt and mum guilt. I think I've been amazingly lucky in that my husband not only understands music, so he had, he was a bit of a rock star before I met him. So he had been in bands for years. He plays everything. So he plays drums, bass guitar, sings writes music, and he reckons he can't play piano, but he can. He just doesn't play it as well as me. And so he considers that an abject failure because he's super competitive. But yeah, he I'm lucky that the two of us both being musicians value that highly so he could see the value in what I was doing. And I think I was kind of lucky that I could lord it over him a little bit in the beginning, because he, he had his Rockstar years when I first met him. And so that consisted of band practice two or three times a week, for hours, like come home at two in the morning. It was a bit of a boys club. They're great guys, but it was very much I was The Good Wife that just sort of let played second fiddle really to it. And I was pretty supportive, like I was I was very enthusiastic about his music, pushed his, but pushed him to really push himself with it was very supportive, most of the time of band prac. Because I had my own obsessions at the time I was writing to fitness and running and everything. So I just instead of playing music, I threw myself into that. Then we had babies. And of course I was the only way that I could really sort of have any time was with him musically, was to write softer, more folky sort of stuff that was just the two of us. So we, he, he was very present with all of that, although we we nearly ended up divorced a few times with writing music, because he's got very different writing style. To me, he's incredibly it's a, it's a good thing that we have those differences. But it took us probably about 10 years to work through it. He is very critical of everything that he does, to the point where he'll refine and refine and refine, whereas he can play a couple of notes to me, and I just see endless possibilities. And I roll with with my creative vision on it. And then he'll stop and start and go back and change. And it just pulls the rug. For me it feels like it pulls the rug out from under my feet when writing, but it's because he he doesn't have the same way of visualizing. And it was incredibly deflating to me over and over and over again, it was my fault because I didn't what was kind of that was anyone's fault. It was just a mismatch in how we wrote music together. And then when I started writing my own music, all of a sudden, we had this freedom where he would criticize what I wrote in a good way and I'll critique it, I should say, not criticize it. And I would take it on board and I would refine what I was writing and everything because it was my vision that I was working with. And because every now and then I would tell him to go shove is critiquing. And I didn't sort of compromise my what my vision for the song was. It took all the ego out of all the previous discussions and we're just suddenly like, I just I don't know, it was amazing. So he's very lucky that he's very supportive of my writing. He's not afraid to tell me if he thinks something should be made better, which is great, because a lot of my stuff on Lux is hugely involving of him. We've he's been very critical in a good way of what I've done. And then regarding the mum guilt thing. Occasionally he will be critical of how much time I have spent focusing on music instead of a family. But yeah, he's he's pretty good. With all of it. I think most of the time the criticism comes from other family members or other museums, really, that sort of don't handle my day directness, I think in my singularity of focus, which I think it is a bad thing sometimes, I think, my blinkers on with my family for a while, it definitely couldn't have endured forever. But I think I've been very lucky that I've been allowed to have a season where my dad just let me ride the creative. Talking about how you caught flack from people that had your style, I suppose. And your decisions, when you got that feedback? Does that drive you and make you? Yeah, yeah. So one of my songs on my debut album, ombre anima is entirely written because of that. It's called empty room. And I think it was, it was written in direct response to two people, I'm not going to name them because I don't think it's very nice of me. But basically, a big fu to some people that had criticize the way that I taught my performing art students, people that criticize the way that I was so uncompromising on certain things. And they, they actually saw that as a real character flaw rather than a positive thing as far as being disciplined and staying the course towards what you actually were trying to achieve. I think there are dreams where it does become a bad thing. But I don't think like I look at what I've achieved with, with, with my performing art students, and also with my music for such a, like, I've never had a grant paid to me, I've never had any sort of funding support from a label or anything like that. And I've still produced four albums, and been nominated for awards and won some awards and that sort of thing. So I think, I think considering all of that, I think I've done what I needed to do to do that. And I don't think that I've lost anything along the way, despite obviously upsetting a few people here and there that felt a bit threatened by it. Yeah, so that song that definitely inspires me to write, I wrote empty room about that, I think, would have lyrics to that song, there's little things I do, giving up of me, just to prove to you that there's somehow sunlight breaking through. So in other words, that whole verse is about me trying to prove to someone that I was a nice person inside. And giving up on what I actually wanted to do and needed to do in order just to prove to them that I was a nice person. And I just went nuts, I'm actually done with that, like, it feels like I'm living in a cage, screw all of you, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna do what I need to do. And it took me I actually needed to work through it, it took probably a couple of days of being really, really like almost on the point of breakdown, I think I was really low from it, because I really felt like it was a I took it, I took it on board too much at first, and I believed them. At first I didn't instead of actually going hang on a minute, what's your motivation for having a crack at me? Instead of doing that I actually took on board what they said way too much. And then I think I think I just came to the realization that those people aren't my people. They don't get it. They don't support drive and ambition and the pursuit of making something the best that it can possibly be. And they don't take feedback very well either. Interestingly, so yeah. Yeah, so yeah, that that was where that comes from that Yeah, certainly I have been inspired by that. That's what I need. Maybe I need someone to help me and then I've run another. The other big thing that I like to explore is entity so and I'll put in air quotes again being more than just a mom, you're still listening. You're still musician. Louisa, you you have children, but you You're really strong on on maintaining your own see outside of being a mother? Yeah, definitely. I think that comes through in the themes of what I write as well, I. Yeah, my, a lot of what I've written is sort of autobiographical. Which is not to say that it's all about falling in love and having your heart broken, and that sort of thing, which is fine. Like those are, those are significant moments for a lot of people. And there's a reason why those sorts of songs resonate with so many people. But my music is often inspired by either just what I'm going through in the moment. So an example of that would be vinyl scratch on my album lacks where I was mucking around with some jazz stuff. And was really interested in just making a song entirely composed of jazz chords. And so I started mucking around with that, and I had a flashback of, because we're in lockdown, and we couldn't go anywhere. And it just sort of seemed like time was just dissolving in front of us. I wrote, I wrote about how music was timeless in that respect, like when you listen to music, you stop worrying about how long the song goes for or, or what you've what you've got going on. And so that was what vinyl scratch was about. So it's not necessarily a theme of, of a tragedy or whatever. But by contrast, as well, there's another song that I wrote, wrote on Lux, which was probably the biggest song I've ever written, maybe that's the reason why I'm not writing a lot now. It's called umbilicus. And that was probably the most autobiographical song I've ever done. It was about the death of my own mother. But in a way, the lead up to her death, as well. She had she had brain cancer. And so she was quite, quite ill for years prior to dying. And it was a very confusing time for me and my sister as teenagers trying to navigate being told that it was just us and it was just our attitude problems. And it was just, you know, what the reason we were finding life so hard was because we were teenagers. And it wasn't because we had someone who was mentally unstable, and entirely unpredictable and quite a difficult person to be around. It wasn't anything to do with that, like the outside world couldn't really didn't know a lot of what was going on. And so yeah, that was it's quite a painful song. It's called umbilicus. And so it's really about that connection between babies and mothers. And I think it's taken, it's taken me I'm 39 now it's a it took me 38 years to really be able to articulate what, what happened. Because it's not just about mom dying when I was 20. It's also to do with my identity because my my own biological father died when I was five weeks old. And so my whole life I've had questions. I found out about that when I was 11. And it kind of just erased 11 years of childhood identity for me when I found out my stepdad is an amazing man. And he was a great dad to me. He's a great dad to me still, but it was my identity that really just took a massive hit. When I learned I learned to have that And then of course mum, in the years after that was very confusing to be around. Yeah, so I think having children of my own in particular has informed a lot will have what happened with mum has informed a lot of the way that I parent with my kids, I'm unfortunately very much like my own mother. In a in a lot of firm ways with my kids I hear I hear her voice coming out of me when I tell them off with various things. And I think I have much less of a sense of humor these days, which is very much like my mum, I think she would just would have been so bloody tired. That that's where that lack of sense of humor comes along. Like my husband plays a lot better with my children than I do. Which I look at and I go, yep, that's my mum, to a tee. But yeah, that a lot of the negative things I went through with mum definitely inform the way that I parent, my kids, I've sort of don't ever want my kids to feel confused about who they are and who I am and, and what, what I really think I think my mum often toed the conservative line a lot of the time, just because that was what the neighbors would want her to do. And I don't think I'm like that at all. So those those little retaliations against, against what I've been through, I guess, coming out, and umbilicus is is a lot about, about that I sort of felt like there was a large level of deception going on, not because Mum was a liar. But because cancer and brain cancer turned her into someone that she wasn't. And she did lie when she was really ill, she would make up things and then remember things differently to how they actually happened and all sorts of really confusing stuff. And then try and tell you that you were wrong, because you're only 15? And don't answer back and that sort of thing. So it was it was a really, it was it was probably the most difficult thing that I've been through. And that comes out in that song. Do you children come out in new songs as well. That'd be quite a confronting thing to have to think about. Actually, I don't know that they do a lot. Yeah. Probably because my kids are a huge source of joy. For me. And they are, they are a joint project, I guess as well between me and my husband. And music for me is quite a selfish pursuit. So maybe I don't write them into my songs. For that reason. I certainly dedicate all the albums to them, because they have to listen to them in the car, when we're driving them to school. As I'm, as I'm writing albums, I have to listen to them over and over and over again, then they've certainly been exposed to them a lot that way. But yeah, I don't think I don't think I so much write my children into my songs. But I I am the person that I am. As the as a songwriter and an author lyrically, particularly in response to my to who I am as a mum and who my kids are. There's, there's a song I wrote called Boy Who Cried Wolf, which is quite a partly a political song. And it was written as part of the me to movement, when all these women were suddenly coming out and saying that they had been sexually assaulted or oppressed or prejudiced against because of not putting out or they've just been subjected to sexual abuse in their careers. And had we're now speaking up and I wrote that song, partly as being inspired by that movement, but also also probably as a as what I hope for my daughter, as well. I probably doesn't come across that personally in the song, but it's certainly like, I hope that my daughter never actually apologizes for who she is, and never never just submits because of who someone else is. I don't Yeah, I don't know if it comes across that personally in the song but yeah, but certainly I am I had hair in my mind when I was writing a lot of the time Jesus see graphs I'd love to write more, more jazz pieces I've been listening to. I'm sort of in that in that calm behind the wave of creativity at the moment where I'm listening to other people's music a lot. And vocally, I think there are some areas where I still need to build a bit of strength in my voice, which Yeah, I've been I've been pushing it certainly singing, singing different techniques and different types of music. So I'm really kind of focusing on all of that. So there might be some more cover. Cover work done, I think, if I can, if I can ever play again. But yeah, that maybe, maybe some more, I'll pop style music. I think I've been listening to a lot of Hayley Williams lately, just because she's got such an epic voice and trying to improve a bit of brightness at the top end of my voice, just listening to her and singing along with her stuff. And my husband has been very accommodating and playing a few few of her songs acoustically. So we've been wiling away a bit of the time, musically that way. I haven't hopped on the piano for a few weeks now, other than to play some classical stuff. I've just wanting to focus a bit on my tech, my technique. So I've been playing a bit of Mozart and a bit of yeah, there's some classical stuff. Just to try and get my speed up again. Is my fingers are actually for a pianist. I've got quite arthritic fingers. But yeah, it's alright. We'll improve again with a bit of practice. It's so lovely to see you. Thank you, sir. Likewise, I appreciate it. Thank you, given my kids an hour break from home school, which is nice as well. So yeah, they need it. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman dotnet

3 Elena Zima Russian painter 3 Article # 30 June 2023 My name is Elena Zima. I'm an artist. I live in Moscow. My mother dreamed that I would learn to draw. So through me she tried to realize what she herself was not available in childhood. She sent me to an art studio at the age of 6. I was good at it. Perhaps painting is the only thing that I was good at as a child and brought only positive emotions. As a teenager, I studied with the best artists. But at the same time, it was considered impossible to "become an artist" in the family and in society. This is not a profession, but condemning yourself to a poor life. So I went to study and work in a completely different direction. I graduated from the Faculty of History and Philology and went to work in the media. But wherever I was, I was always drawing. People noticed this and often asked to draw something for them. Orders began to appear, then I realized that I could earn more by painting than by working in a magazine. As a result, I quit and began to look for my own style in painting and develop as an artist. I paint in the classical realism and in the style of magical realism. I use magical realism to show the secret life of nature and objects. Every painting has an additional artistic layer: different reality, other life of objects and their history. Just like in childhood, looking at clouds, we saw different shapes. The same way the shadows in the foliage of the trees could fold into a shape of a person. The purpose of my art is not just to depict the outer shell of things but to reveal the inner world and personal history of objects. I have not big family: myself, my husband, our ten-year-old daughter Anna and a cat. My family is my main characters in my paintings and they often serve as models for my future artworks. They help me and inspire me. Well, except for those moments when they complain that I like painting more than them. My workday at the moment looks like this: I get up at 6:30 in the morning, see my daughter off to school, spend about an hour on myself (breakfast, checking email and social media), then I go up to my studio (I'm lucky - my studio is on the third floor of my house) and work on a painting until about 2 pm. I have lunch. If it;s not a busy day, I might go out for a walk. Then my students come into the studio and I give lessons. In the evening I help my daughter with her homework; we talk, do something about house, and have dinner as a family. Of course, this is an example of a perfect schedule where everything goes according to plan. But quite often the schedule changes: we have to take a painting to an exhibition or go to a colleague's exhibition opening in the evening, the child or I may fall ill and then the whole routine changes. To be honest, I have a hard time dealing with the sudden change in schedule. If I don't get to work on a painting in a day, I get very anxious. I'm just learning to let myself rest from the daily grind. And of course it wasn't always like this. I was able to work fully only when Anna went to kindergarten. Now my daughter is big enough to go to exhibitions with me. Of course, she does not always have the patience to endure a long event, but at least she is very interested in what her mother does. My husband helps me build an optimal daily routine - he often picks up my daughter from school, helps me prepare lunch or dinner, and I have extra time to work or rest. "I believe that my art will teach my daughter humanism, a humanistic view of the world. It will teach her to respect her vocation and her interests, regardless of finances or society's opinion. It is important to be yourself and to love yourself." I have many artist friends who also have to combine art and family. Some of them had to stop their creative work for a long time and work at another job to raise a child. But then they came back to art anyway. It helped me to stop being afraid that if I interrupted my artistic work for a while, I wouldnt be able to go back. I realized that sometimes artists (both men and women) can pause to solve their problems and then paint again and be fully in the art profession. Being a mum The birth of my daughter played a huge role in my development as an artist. If before the birth of Anna painting was more of a hobby for me (I did not participate in exhibitions, I painted mostly only to order), then after the birth of daughter, I realized that I need to find my own style of painting, to formulate what I want to convey to the viewer through my art. I must take part in exhibitions. I need to evolve. To become better and cooler, to make my daughter proud of her mother. While my daughter was baby and couldn't get along without me, I felt terrible because I really wanted to get myself back as a person as soon as possible, to stop being an "app"; to serving the child and to get back to being creative as soon as possible. I was in a big hurry and felt guilty that I was a bad mother and could not fully immerse myself in my child's life. When Anna was about two years old, we had a babysitter come over three times a week for three hours at a time. Those nine hours a week became my salvation. I was slowly getting myself back on track. I realized that I would only be a good mom if I had the opportunity to do what I loved. I learned how to leave for a few hours without “mum guilt”, to completely immerse myself in my world for that time, and then return to my child energized and ready to spend full and sincere time with my daughter. Probably the hardest situation was when my husband and I had to fly out to another country for a week for an exhibition, and left my daughter with her grandmother. She was too small to take with us. But my priority at the time was to develop my career as an artist. I don’t regret that I didn’t give up this trip, because then a year later there was a pandemic, problems with flights, obtaining visas, etc. And if I hadn’t taken advantage of this opportunity then, I still wouldn’t have had the experience of a foreign exhibition. What about Anna - she had a wonderful time with her beloved grandmother. There were no tears or heartache. She knows that her mum goes to exhibitions, it’s her job. And she always proudly tells her friends about me. I feel much more “mum guilt” when I do chores (washing dishes, cooking, cleaning) instead of spending time with my daughter. It really is a waste of time - no fun for me and no attention for the child! Fortunately, she;s old enough now that we can, for example, cook something delicious together. When a baby is first born, the first year (and more) a woman is completely devoted to her baby. Breastfeeding, caring for the baby, walking, sleeping - all this fills a woman's life completely. It is really hard to find time for yourself. And it's hard to believe that there will ever be time for yourself. You don't feel like a separate person, but like an infant's attendant. It was a really difficult period for me. I was used to a multi-faceted life - painting, equestrian, work, meeting with friends. All that had to be forgotten for a while. And then to return slowly back into my life. To choose what is most important and what to wait for, or what to give up. Of course, with the baby, life will never be the same again. Now there was the most important thing in it - a new life, for which you are responsible. But my life has not become more boring or monotonous. Now, 10 years later, I can definitely say that with the birth of a child, I have more things in my life, I just learned how to combine them all. And I also realized that only by my own example I can show my daughter what it means to live a full life. Do I want Anna, when she grows up, to devote her life to housekeeping? Absolutely not. I want my daughter to live an interesting and fulfilling life. And only from me she can learn how multifaceted a woman's life is. Not from my stories, but from the way I live. Because children are educated not by words, but by what happens before their eyes. "While my daughter was baby and couldn't get along without me, I felt terrible because I really wanted to get myself back as a person as soon as possible, to stop serving the child and to get back to being creative as soon as possible. I was in a big hurry and felt guilty that I was a bad mother and could not fully immerse myself in my child's life. " To be an artist is not to have a steady income. Of course, this is very damaging to one;s ego. When there are a lot of successful, well earning peers around, and your sales are down, or your online account is closed because of the political situation, you feel worthless, as if you've achieved nothing in life. Every time you fall down, you have to get back up and move on. But I believe that my art will teach my daughter humanism, a humanistic view of the world. It will teach her to respect her vocation and her interests, regardless of finances or society's opinion. It is important to be yourself and to love yourself. My mother's fate and her actions greatly influenced my character and attitudes. In my childhood in Russia it was not customary to divorce, it was considered shameful. But a man could simply leave a woman with children and not help them. But for a woman to file for divorce herself - that was rare. So my mother divorced twice, ecause she did not agree to tolerate bad treatment of herself. She was always very different from ordinary people. She was able to build a brilliant career as a lawyer on her own and she is still working today. Everyone admires her now, but few people shared her views then. She is strong and independent. Apparently that;s why it's important for me to be financially independent, too. It;s true that with the profession of an artist, this is hard to achieve in my country. Now I started two new series of artworks. The first is portraits painted on uncoated canvas. The lack of a background allows focusing as much attention as possible on the subject of the image. The hero of painting is captured in the process of working or interacting with the world around him. It is important to catch the character, or rather, one important detail through which the whole image is revealed. And the second is about the inner world of man. This inner world is not constant. It changes depending on our moods and the moods of the people around us. A person;s inner space can be very different from the outer space. This resonance of the internal feeling and the external environment is the main theme of the new series of paintings, in which silhouettes of people are filled by the second background, reflecting the general mood. Contact Elena My Instagram accounts: @elena_zima_artist – about art and life @elena_zima_art – only art BACK

Emily Johnson US author S2 Ep53 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts Welcome! Today's guest is Emily Johnson, an author and mother of 1 from Raleigh, North Carolina, USA. Emily grew up with a creative mother, she spent many years dancing ballet and golf. Emily has a background in journalism and marketing, When Emily was 13 her mum was diagnosed with advanced stage Ovarian Cancer. Statistically, she had very little time left and shortly after, she began writing a novel entitled Bird of Paradise , She lived for another 17 years. Shortly after her mum's passing, Emily opened her mums laptop and found her unfinished novel, and a letter from her mother requesting that Emily finish the novel for her. It took Emily 8 years to complete this epic task, and along the way the process took her through emotional ups and downs, processing grief, learning more about her mother and creating a legacy for her family. Bird of Paradise was finally published on what would have been her mother's 71st birthday. **This episode contains discussions around grief and the loss of a parent, having a baby without your mother in your life and anxiety.** Purchase the book - Bird of Paradise Read the article by Rachel Harris that inspired Emily Connect with Emily Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for listening. It really does mean so much. My guest today is Emily Johnson, an author and mother of one from rally in North Carolina in the United States. Emily grew up with a creative mother. She spent many years dancing ballet and golf, and she enjoyed many trips to say The Phantom of the Opera. Emily has a background in journalism and marketing. When Emily was 13, her mom was diagnosed with advanced stage ovarian cancer. Statistically she had very little time left and shortly after she began writing a novel entitled bird of paradise. Emily's mom lived for another 17 years. Shortly after her passing, Emily opened her mom's laptop and found her unfinished novel. Together with a letter from her mother requesting that Emily finished the novel. He took Emily eight years to complete this epic task along the way, processing her grief, through emotional ups and downs, learning more about her mother and creating a legacy for her family. Bird of Paradise was finally published on what would have been her mother's 71st birthday. This episode contains discussions around grief and the loss of a parent, having a baby without your mother in your life and anxiety. The music you'll hear today is from Australia New Age ambient music trio LM job, which features myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you so much for coming on today. Emily. It's a real pleasure to welcome me. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. So you're in North Carolina in the US. So what's it like there at the moment? What's your weather doing? It's doing the typical North Carolina spring. So one day it's winter and the next day it is oppressively hot and humid. So I believe today is supposed to be warm tomorrow. Thunderstorms tornadoes last week, and who knows? Maybe snow by the end of the week. Oh, wow. I'm joking about the snow. We're over that. But it's a funky time of year here. Yeah. Right. And like tornadoes. Like that doesn't sound that fun. Is that? No, no, it's not. I mean, we're not not like the tornadoes they get in the Midwest, but a tornado is a tornado as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Oh, goodness. Well, that's one thing I have never had to come across here. So that's, you know, I have no experience on that. But and you said just while we're chatting that you're not originally from North Carolina. Where are you from? Originally? I am originally from Aspen, Colorado. Ah, yep. Yeah. They were born there. Yeah. I was there for 13 years before my family moved to North Carolina. Yep. Oh, beautiful. That's, that is a beautiful part of the world. I kind of think of my creativity as being two folds. By Day and profession. I'm in marketing and advertising, which is certainly creative. I call it box creativity because you can only go so far. You've got clients and, you know, length. Regulations. And you know, I mean, a tagline can only be so creative. And then unexpectedly, I just published a book, while I guess just is a year ago. And it's a work of fiction. So a lot of creativity. It was actually originally begun by my mom when she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. And she passed away leaving it unfinished and a couple weeks after she passed away I found a letter from her that had her unfinished manuscript And she asked me to finish it for her. So, yeah, it was a Titanic, you know, trying to do that. But after eight years, I finally finished it. And I am still shocked and surprised that it's published. Congratulations. That's an epic, epic story. So you had no idea that Did you know that she was working on it? And you just assumed that it it sort of just been left to one side until you read the letter? Yes, I did. I mean, I knew for years she was writing it. And I knew she'd spent hours doing it. And I'd always ask what she was writing about. And she told me I'd find out eventually, and then I'd asked, Can I read it? And she said, you'll find out about it eventually. You know, and said, I had no idea what it was about. I mean, the first time I sat down to read it, after she passed it, I was just, I was blown away. I was shocked. Never in a million years could I have I imagined my mom writing something like this. And she's a brilliant woman. But it was just amazing to me. And so yeah, it was shocking. Oh, goodness. So I'm gonna go I'm gonna leave that story there. For sake just leave everybody on the tip of the chairs waiting. But I want to go back to, to you as a as growing up. And as a child, I guess. Were you creative? Then? Were you interested in the arts or music or things like that when you're growing up? Yeah, I mean, I loved it. I danced ballet for years and years and years. Certainly not professionally. But it was something that I really enjoyed doing. And so I had an appreciation for the classical arts. I've always been a big fan of musical theater. When I was in fourth grade, my parents took me to go see Phantom of the Opera. And I was pretty much hooked since then, I think I've seen at about 14 times, all over the world, which is kind of, I don't know, crazy, maybe fanatical. But I just I love going to the Broadway shows. And I've just always loved the symphony. And you know, any of the arts has just been a huge part of my life. I even wrote grants for the professional ballet company here for several years. Yeah. Anytime I get a chance to go and see anything in the theater on there. Yeah, that's interesting. You say about the Phantom. That was the first show that I ever saw. The town that I live in, were sort of 500 kilometers between. I don't know what that is in miles, sorry. But we're like halfway between these two major cities in Australia, Adelaide and Melbourne. So we don't have we don't have big things come here. But this one time, I don't know how maybe I was 11 or 12. And mum took myself and my sister on the bus to go over and say it. And then as soon as it finished, we got on the bus and drove back home again. Like it was just this quick trip. But that was ah, yeah, I can definitely relate to you about that. That being the first show that you see. It just it's incredible shows and it's just I love it. I mean, I when I was a kid, I even put on a one woman show the Phantom of the Opera in my living room from my parents so that they were chandelier falling and everything. Fabulous. I play the piano, you know, just for fun and kind of stress release and things like that. And I'm a golfer I played competitive golf throughout my high school years. I still play not competitively, but there's some creativity to that. And when you end up in the woods, you got to figure out how to get yourself out of their vision what could be I never thought about golf that way actually, my husband used to play and I never thought he was very creative. But you know, that's a good point. If you're hitting it straight, it's not creative. But if you're all over the place, you gotta get yourself over to that green. I love that. That's awesome so, your mum, she said You said she was you know, a brilliant person in your words was Was she always sort of creative and doing things and and you're exposed to that when you were growing up? Yeah, I mean, she was very artistic. Her art did not pass down to me at all. She never really did anything, you know, other than just for pure joy of it. She used to love doing paper cuttings, and I still remember her doing Apple birds and grapefruit roses for dinner parties. Oh, you know, she she just loved that kind of creativity. She was a school teacher. She taught elementary school. She was actually my teacher in second and third grade is the only teacher ever sent me to the principal's office she Yeah, that was embarrassing. But, you know, after she retired when we move North Carolina, she did a lot of work with curriculum and she worked for I can't think it's the American Curriculum Development Society, I think is what it was called, don't quote me on that. And so she did a lot of talks around the country about developing curriculum for elementary school level. But I just I always enjoyed watching her create things. Yeah, that would have been like a really awesome sort of environment to grow up with having that, like encouragement. And, yeah, yeah, it was, she's, she's like, every year, we used to go to New York and go to some Broadway shows. And that was kind of our celebration of our birthdays. And it always would be fast with the opera would be number one, and then we'd go see a couple others as well. So I have a lot of memories of that. So that's it. Like that's a really good setup for you, regardless of whether then you actually have this incredible task given to you by your mom to, to complete the book, what what was your first thoughts? I mean, you have shared that you couldn't believe that she had written it, when you had to think about you then writing it, how did you feel about taking on that task? You know, it's really funny writing, it was the easy part for me. I think I just I knew my mom's so well, that once I read through this and got to know her characters and, and their motivations and who they were, I actually the story came to me fairly quickly, I wrote the end before anything else, and then backtracked my way to that black and white line of where she ended. And then, you know, when I, when I created the ending of the story and the story arc, I had to complete it. So I had to go back to what she had written, and add in events and some conversations just to make it cohesive. But it, you know, it and so I guess, in part, it was almost therapy for me, because so much of her even though it's fictional, is in this book that I was able to, you know, really continue a conversation with my mom, for nearly eight years after she passed away. And in that immediate moment, after her passing is, is very difficult. You know, and everyone has a different way of grieving. And this helped me through it enormously. Because it just felt like I could talk to her. Yeah. So how did it feel then when you're coming up to finish it? Did that feel like you didn't really want to finish it? Like you knew that would be the end? You know, of the? Yeah, I, I think part of the eight years of me trying to write this, yeah, I changed careers, I had a child, which I know we'll probably be talking about. So I had a lot of distractions. But part of me also thinks I never really wanted to finish it. Because I knew that would close a chapter on my life with my mom. And I could have gone over and over and over this, you know, indefinitely, but just decided I have to stop at some point. And just type the end. And I really thought that was it. I mean, I never really intended to publish it. And then I just happened to know someone that knew someone who was in publishing and got my manuscript to them. And all of a sudden, they wanted to publish it. So it was amazing, but I just, you know, and now I can look back on it. It's been 10 years since my mom passed away. So now I can kind of look back on it. And it's a new way of connecting with my mom, you know, our words are gonna be forever intertwined in this book. And so, you know, I can kind of think to that as well. Yeah, that's such a beautiful story. Like, yeah, and um, yeah, sorry, I'm getting emotional. That's just so special, isn't it? Like, you're right forever. You're in your mom's words and your ideas and concepts and everything will be together in this one document. That's pretty massive, isn't it? Yes. I mean, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. It was so much fun getting to do it. And just knowing that that her dream of being published was was going to be fulfilled Yeah. Like on one hand, it's like, I want to say it's a lot of pressure to put on you because she obviously knew you're capable. She wouldn't have done it, I guess. But yeah, that achieving it is just, you know, like you said, it's, it's meeting that dream that your mom had. And that's pretty special, isn't it to be added, I think she always intended me to be the one to finish really put the letter in the copy of the unfinished manuscript somewhere, which she knew I would find it. It was in her closet under her computer. And she, I think she knew I'd go snooping for it because I wanted, I knew it was on her computer, I knew her password. And I think she just knew, you know, I was gonna go try and find this. And So lo and behold, there it was. And yeah, I am I, my mother never did anything, unintentionally. That just wasn't her way. And I really think that she, she knew how much I'd need this, she knew that I'd be capable of finishing it, even if I didn't think I was gonna be. And so I think she really, this was her way of, of making sure I was going to be able to make it through the next few years, until I got to that point in my grieving period, where I knew that I was going to make it through versus this is where I'm going to be forever in this empty space, you know, without my mom. So you know, and I and the way with the story goes, I don't want to give anything away. But there's a ton of me in this, I mean, you can, you can almost in a sense, feel my emotional growth throughout, you know, the book as well. And because the book follows a young girl who starts out at the age of 17, at the beginning, which is in 1967, in San Francisco, which is when my mom was in San Francisco, that's where she grew up. So the 60s in San Francisco, she's got some had some great stories. But you know, the in the book follows a decade long journey of this girl, as she, you know, learns to find her place in the world and who she is and, and learns that you have to overcome things in order to find the beauty in life. And so it it there's a very strong central family in it. That is very much like what my family was. And so I can see little bits and pieces and the characters and the stories and things. And I think she you know, she knew I'd need that there's a lot of life lessons that you really hope you can pass on to your children, but she didn't know if she'd be there. She had terminal cancer. I mean, I was 15 She got diagnosed with ovarian cancer. She had had breast cancer before that. And they told her, you know, statistically, people don't survive this. And she made it nearly 17 years past that. She wished she told her doctors, you know, you, you better make sure on there to see my daughter walked down the aisle. That was her ultimate goal. And I put, you know, like I said, I was 15. That was a long ask for terminal cancer. But she was there, she saw me get married, to have her doctors that were with her the whole time. Also, were there to see me get married, which was really special to me. And you know, she just she wasn't going to take no for an answer. She was just, that was it. She wasn't going until she was ready to go. And that's I think what? What made her the survivor? She was. Yeah, well, that is just an inspiration in itself, really, isn't it? Yeah. All right, well, let's talk about your family that you mentioned that you had a child during this process. And yeah, share us share with us about your family. Well, I have one son, he's seven and a half now, which is absolutely unbelievable to me. And my husband and the three of us live in Raleigh, North Carolina. My husband's an engineer. And like I said, I do marketing advertising. And my son his full time profession is to be crazy. I joke that he's solar powered, going and going and going to use the joy of my life. Yeah, I can relate. I've got a six and a half year old. So you know, around that time? They are they like the Energizer Bunny, they just go and keep going and going and go and they just don't stop. Do they know they never do. So how was that like then trying to write and then, you know, raise a little ball of energy. Yeah, well, I mean, I, you know, I started, I started writing, I got pregnant, I guess a year and a few months after my mom passed away. And so I I had already started writing this a little bit prior to getting pregnant. And then during the pregnancy process, I was actually I feel like my creativity went up tenfold. I don't know why. Once I got past that third trimester that or the first trimester that was a little rough week. We could do it without that. But you know, I had this time I slowed down my my actual profession quite a bit during my pregnancy, it was kind of a rough one. So I spent a lot of time at home. And this is how I filled my time. And then once he was born, I put it down, I almost forgot about it. It was it was a couple years. I mean, it wasn't until he went to preschool that I was able to pick it up again. And he was in preschool for about six hours a day. So I dropped them off. And then I'd go to a local coffee shop with my computer and just sit and write. And that's kind of how I went about and then we, you know, when he went immediately, well, not immediately, he actually ended preschool early because of COVID. And did virtual kindergarten. So that was a bit rough. And I did not, you know, it's during that virtual kindergarten is when I was able to get this published. So he'd be sitting there and I'd be editing it and listening to him on the computer as well. So so it was definitely on and off. And that's I think, why it took me eight years to bash hmm, yeah. Well, I was gonna ask you about your identity when, when you became a mom, did you have the sort of shift in? I don't know, we sort of joked that feels like we've been hit by a truck. And, you know, we don't know, if we're up the right way or the wrong way, whatever. Did you sort of experience that sort of emotions when you had yourself? I did. I mean, it was funny. I was, you know, it was very hard for me giving birth without my mom. My dad's older sister actually came out for several weeks to be there with me. And then I was so late in my delivery that she left a couple days after, because she, she needed to get back to our family. But you know, so I think for the you know, it's just such a shock. It's like hitting a brick wall, where you have those moments of pure joy. And then all of a sudden, you think, Oh, my gosh, I'm responsible for another life. And I don't know what I'm doing. And, you know, it was, you know, my son sneezed. And I immediately wanted to call my mom and ask if I needed to take him to the hospital or not. But she wasn't there, you know, and my dad was completely overwhelmed as well, I don't know, what do you do? You know, and it was, you know, so for the first few years, it was really difficult. Not that it's not still difficult, but it was just kind of, I really just became Nate's mom. That's what I did. And then I ended up going back to work. I'll be it a little differently. It wasn't in the ad agency, or nonprofit world. But I ended up going back to work and did that for several years, my college roommate, who I was still really good friends with, actually ended up watching my son while I was at work, which was, you know, I had someone to trust. But I just got to that point where I felt like I was missing him, I felt guilty that he was away from me. And so I stopped working, which I never thought I do. I always intended to be that career person that would have a family and juggle their full time career and figure it out. And then all of a sudden, that wasn't important to me. I just, you know, I lost that, that drive to have that type of career. And in advertising, it is very difficult not to be 100% committed to the career if you want to move up. It's just it's a cutthroat business. And so yeah, my my identity as a career woman completely went out the window. And I became a full, you know, full time mom. And now I'm able to do freelance marketing advertising. So I have my own clients, I can work from home on my own schedule. And I've built a business that way, which has been fabulous, but I still remember hitting that moment where I I looked in the mirror and I was like, I don't even know who I am. I mean, I've I've everything is now revolved around my family, which is great. But I saw myself starting to go downhill because I had lost who I was. Yeah, yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? If you if you don't sort of look after yourself and know who yourself is, I suppose you do. You do risk just sort of dis dissipating. I suppose just like you said, just being nice mum. And, and that's all you exist for. And then that can be I don't know, I actually spoke to a lady a couple of days ago when I was recording. And she had the same experience. She always wanted to have four children. That was her dream was just to have four children. And she had to and realize how hard it was but she just kept pushing on and she got the four and then she thought she'd be happy. They she thought Once I've met my goals, this is what I want. Now I should be happy. And then she couldn't work out why she wasn't happy anymore. And it was because she'd lost sight of who she was. Like she was just existing for her children, basically. So, yeah, it's scary when you get to that point. I mean, there's a lot of feelings that go into that. And I actually, you know, I had started to try and find my point of passion, again, that fit into, you know, that circle of family, I mean, there's things that I would love to be going to do. But you just can't, as a mom, I mean, there's, you know, the logistics of babysitting, and school and things like that. But I needed to find that thing that was just mine. And I started to do it, I got really into kickboxing, and I went to the gym. I had a trainer who had I've known for years, because I broke my back when I when I think from years of playing competitive golf, I had fractured my back unknowingly, but it came to a head in 2011, and I had to get surgery. And so he was my physical therapist when I was able to kind of start getting back to it. So, you know, I'd always been working out, but it really became a central focus for me, when I found out that I had completely lost who I was. And, you know, I obviously, you know, if some, my son needed something, I had to put the working out on the back burner for a little bit. But, you know, I tried very hard to protect that hour of my day. And but then, you know, you kind of start losing it a little bit when when something happens, or your son goes to school, or, you know, there's a life change. And then I read an article in a magazine that Rachel Harris wrote, she's an actress, and you know, about her becoming a mom in in the acting world, and what she learned about it, and she got really into fitness as well. You know, and she just, she realized that being a happy mother made you a good mother, you know, and that, so I didn't feel the guilt anymore about really taking that time for myself, because I realized what I was doing was actually helping my son and not harming him. So, absolutely, yeah, that's something that really common theme on the podcast is people talk about having their own needs met, so then they're able to meet the needs of others. And I think that's, you know, as a mom, who's there for everybody, not, you know, you're not just there for the children, but you know, your, for your partner and your job. Or if you've got, you know, pets, you've got to look after, like, you're there for everybody, like, there's so hard, you know, and I suffer from anxiety, I was always a type A personality, and then the older I got, and then having a child, I took my anxiety up to a huge level, and that would interfere with my ability to do things. And so, you know, working out came became the way to combat it. I took it a bit too far, not that long ago and broke my ankle doing it. But you know, you have to be, you know, a little careful. You know, I really did. I mean, if I'm happier, my family's going to be happier, I'm going to be more present in the moment, which is so important. Rather than thinking of the what if this happens, or I didn't do this, right, or, you know, it, it's so important, I think, to do that. And I I fall, you know, off the wagon every once in a while and have a moment of complete, you know, panic about things, but I think I'm getting better. I'm a work in progress. I think we all love to be honest, everyone has their moments. And then, but I think it's having that goal, like you said that, that point of passion, which I think is awesome, saying I'm going to start using that is, is really does, you know, even if you, you're conscious that you haven't done it for a couple of days, whatever, it's always in your mind now because you've got something that you know, makes you feel amazing. And, and that in turn, you know, helps you, you know, be the mom that you want to be I suppose for one, it's very much. That's a lot of my mom, my mom, because it's a theme throughout the whole book is finding that thing that you're passionate about and finding your sanctuary, which she always said was you know, finding who you are and knowing you know, knowing who you are and liking who you are. And once you find that place, you know, things the good will come. But she was always one to live passionately, you know, she had to face her mortality. So she lives you saying she lives every day to the fullest. It's kind of weird because someday she just you know, throw up her hands and you know shout and yell and say things I can't say on a podcast. But everyone's allowed to do that. You know, I mean if you don't if you're perpetually perky, it's you're hiding things that's just not human nature. She was a big proponent of of Never Letting Go Have passion in your life. And unfortunately I did. And you know, since that's a theme throughout the book, I mean, this, this book is really almost a guide for me at various stages of my life, and I'm forever thankful for that. Yeah. It's awesome. It's like, you've got your own personal little, you know, I don't want to call them a self help book, because it's not, but you know what I mean? Like, it's a, it's a little, little reminder for certainly self help, you know, it's not what to expect when expecting, but it is definitely self help. For me. I mean, I just, there's little reminders in there, where I just have to say, oh, yeah, you know, I forgot to do that I forgot, I forgot me, I forgot to hold on to that passion. And I really, it has changed my life to remember to go back and take care of myself. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. That's an incredible gift for your mom to give you to like to raise you in that way. And to, to actually role model that for you for you. And then, you know, I'm sure as your son grows up, like, he's going to have the same sort of mentality, because that's how you're authentically living your life in that way. It's just I hope so. I mean, it's, you know, I can see a lot of meat in him with his personality, you know, he looks just like my husband, except for his hair, his hair is as wild as mine is. But, you know, he, he's very type A, I can see the anxiety in him. You know, and I'm hoping that I can combat that. You know, from being on the other side, I know what it's like to have that anxiety, you know, in college, sometimes it can be, you know, detrimental. It can, it can make things very difficult sometimes, you know, particularly with exams. And so I'm hoping, you know, that I can I can impart that wisdom on him, like my mom did to me, or tried to do to me. But it took me to getting an adult in my mother myself to understand exactly what my mom was trying to say to me the whole time. And you know, and this book is his grandmother's legacy, and his mom's legacy. I did very similar to my mom, I tried to put in, you know, like I said, it's a fiction, but there's some very deep, you know, things for me, not only, you know, with the storyline and places that the book goes that I wrote from experience. I mean, he'll get to, you know, see some of my experiences in life. But it's also I tried to put in, in those lessons that I want to pass on to him as well. Yeah, you know, and it's, it's, he's very proud of it, which just makes me feel warm and fuzzy. He drew an art in art class, he drew a picture of the cover. And I just, you know, I went to tears when I saw that. Oh, that's beard focus. Yeah, that's, that's was something I was going to ask you is like, how does you know? Does he know that his mom's an author? And obviously he does and yeah, like, very proud of it. I mean, to hear him talk you think I was like a best selling you know, New York Times famous author. So yeah, it's great to see I mean, you you hope that your children see you as this hero figure in your life. Y'all not so I saw my parents I was very close to my parents. I was an only child just like my son is going to be because I was after his birth I was one and done. It was not gonna happen again. Oh, I was yeah, that was not I'm so thrilled with the way it turned out but it was not pleasant. Yeah, but it's just you know, that's just it makes it worth it. Yeah, I nearly I nearly only had one because I had a very terrible delivery and then a very challenging baby. So my kids have got seven nearly seven half years between them. It took a while to get back on the wagon. I understand that I just never got back on the wagon Yeah, no good on you. will get a dog that's all. Yeah, now I could have easily have done that. was at the point where I was either going to get a hysterectomy or have another child like that's how my brain was like flip flopping between the two options. You know, it was my husband it was not was not not in the cards. Tell us the name of the book called Bird of Paradise. Can you share what it's called that? Or is that sort of comes out in the book more? Would you rather know? Yeah, it's funny, I don't, you know, my mom titled it. And I found out from the very little notes that she left that at one point, she was gonna call it letters to my daughter, which just gives me the warm fuzzies. Because a lot of it is kind of have that relationship between the mom and the daughter. It's it's a lot of that. But she her favorite flower in the world was bird of paradise, she had one in the room that she did the majority of her writing. So it does, you know, for her it, there was a bird of paradise flower that the mother took everywhere the family went, because the father's job takes them to all these different exotic locations like London and Paris and Hong Kong and Jakarta and all these amazing places. And so she always brings the bird of paradise with her. But that's where it ended with my mom. It's part of the story. And because I knew how important it was, I carried it into a much larger theme where it became symbolic and not necessarily just the flower. So there's it's twofold. You know, and there's bird of paradise all over the cover. There's a there's an island in the book, which is the family's true home, even though they live all over the world. And that island is, is the one place in the book that doesn't really exist. It was all made up in my mom's mind. I've had so many people ask me, you know, where is it and I have no earthly idea. But it is this beautiful idea like tropical islands that I would love to find Sunday. And of course there's bird of paradise on. So just coming back to how you approached writing the book, did you have to? Did you find that your style of writing was already, like similar to the way that your mom had written? Because you've been reading? Or did you have to make a real conscious effort to try and make the way that you're writing blending with your mom's? It was a very conscious effort, because just my background is in journalism and marketing, which is not descriptive and poetic. I mean, you have to say what you want to say and get out of there. And so, you know, for me, it was I wrote very black and white. My mom was very descriptive. You know, very, I've had people compare it to a movie in the mind. So there was no little detail she left you know, hidden and you know, so my first draft of this, you could tell it was two different writers. It was my draft was very, you know, just this is what happened. These are the facts. And here's the story and, and I knew that was going to happen. So I had to go back over, you know, my my sections of it. And just I've said several times, and I hold true to it that it was like an oil painting, where you just add layer upon layer of description until I got to that level of what my mom's writing was. And that took you know, it took a massive amount of some of it was evaluating my internal feelings and using that to get to that level. A lot of it was finding Google Images that spoke to me that made sense within the story and just scribing them, or finding, you know, this book goes somewhere, and I don't want to reveal where it is, but this book does go to a location that is one of the most special places in the world to me. And so I was able to pull out old family photos and, and the feelings I had of seeing these things in person and, and use that, to really describe it, I'm still shocked that I was able to do it. I'm shocked that nobody really knows the true line of where I took over 100% Not even my publisher. You know, it's just my father is the only one that knows, and I hope it stays that way. I've had people guess, and you know, and things like that. But I don't want really any I don't want to reveal that. No, I Yeah, even if they guess, right, you're not going to tell it because it's gonna smile and say, you know, no. Yeah, that's true. No, but that's the thing, too. It's, it's part of this incredible story. It's the joining together. But at the same time, it's the same. It's one in the same if you know what I mean. Like, yeah, you you wouldn't want people to to like to tell people because I don't know. It just doesn't it wouldn't feel right, wouldn't it? I know. And it was very important to me, you know that I stay true to my mom's story. This was her story. You know, I, I made sure her name was listed first on the cover. That was really, really important to me. For some reason, it's small, little detail. But that was that was essential that that happened because it is hers. These characters are hers. Just because I completed their story art doesn't mean I took them over. And I didn't want to take away from her writing, you know, I could have easily gone in here and just stripped her writing down to match more my writing style. The book is over 550 pages long. It's a saga of a book. But and I could have certainly done that. But then I would have it wouldn't have been hers anymore. And that's what's so special about it. And she didn't leave any notes. For me whatsoever. There was no outline, she created every character with the exception of one I just had a name and knew who that character was supposed to be in the story. And that was a lot of fun for me to create that particular character. I have a feeling she did that on purpose. I don't think she wanted to box me in. I think she wanted me to be able to take the story where I wanted to take it. I actually don't even remember her writing for the last year of her life. Granted, I didn't live at home, but I think she stopped intentionally. I mean, I just I I don't know why I just have this feeling. But I think she, she did not want me to feel like I had to stick to one particular story. I like to think where I took it is exactly where she would have. Because I knew her like that. I knew that the way she thought, you know, this is this book starts as a coming of age family saga. And then as the main character gets older and more experienced, it works its way into a romance. And you know, I think you know, and I just think that's something she wanted me to experience as well. This is such an awesome story. Honestly, how many people can say that they've done what you've done. Like, it's just you must feel like incredibly, like proud and privileged. And, you know, all the all the big words and emotions like to have been able to do it. I'm so honored by the fact that she entrusted me with something that she had worked so hard on and, and I am very proud of it. I'm blown away by the reception. It's gotten the things that people have said, I mean, I've been compared to famous authors that I never had a million a barber freebie, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is so cool. And, you know, and then you know, so it's just been absolutely incredible, you know, the experience and the almost the confidence that has given me again, I mean, that's something as a mother, I don't know, if it's just me or a lot of mothers, you start losing your confidence in your ability to do things. Am I ever gonna be able to do this again? Or is this any good? Or am I any good? You know, and I think a lot of that comes down to a first time Mother, you don't know what you're doing. So there is not a lot of confidence in that and you carry that through other aspects of your life. Because that's just the mode you get into is you just don't know if you're, if what you're doing is right. And that's the thought patterns you have. And I've always had a bit of a confidence issue anyways, so it just amplified itself. But you know, and then the thing that's really been special is the people that have reached out to me less about the book and more about the fat They've experienced losing a parent or they grew up with a parent that was facing a terminal illness and what that was like for them, or somebody that I hadn't even spoken to, since middle school reached out because his mother had just been diagnosed with cancer. And, and that has, where things have so surprised me. Because I've done a lot of podcasts that have been more grief based podcasts than writing technique. And that's, I think, a gifts, my mom left as well, she was, you know, she'd be in the chemo treatment room in the middle of eight hours of chemo, talking to the person next to them and encouraging them and getting them talking about things that were not cancer related. And that was just the person she was she was this larger than life personality that put so many people and so much ahead of her, not to her detriment, but I think it was part of what kept her going as well. You know, and now I'm getting to do that and carry that legacy on. Everyone talks about the seven stages of grief for what it is which, which to me is a bunch of hooey because nobody goes through grief the same way. You know, you might feel the guilt, which for me was the hardest part, you know, and obviously, you're going to fill that empty void and things and, and I'm still 10 years out grieving. But I think I've hit this point where it's, it's therapeutic to me to now talk about it, I spent years where I could not talk about it. It just was something. You know, I wasn't in denial, but I didn't want to bring up the memories. And that last few days, because she, despite the fact that she fought cancer for 17 years. The end was very quick. She was there one day and on life support the next day, and she passed away the day after Christmas in 2012. And, you know, in a sense, you know, you never want to lose someone, you kind of hope it goes that way. You don't want to see them with a slow decline. We were lucky I got a chance to say goodbye because she knew where things were going. I knew where things were going. And she had prepared me very well for it. You know, not that you can really say you're prepared for that. But I was lucky I got a chance. The last thing I ever said to her was I love you. And she said that back and that was it. And I was I just that's a gift that I will have forever. But, you know, I'm still I'm still like I said I'm still grieving and being able to now talk about it from a way of maybe helping other people is my new stage of getting through this. Yeah. You know, so it's not just helping, you know, it's helping me talk about it. Yeah, absolutely. And like you say, you can feel like you're prepared. I mean, yeah, there's you can do some preparation, I guess. But when that actually happens, it's like yeah, it's I got that closure that that conversation actually she was fine the night before she went on life support, she's in the hospital, but she was fine. And she and I stayed up almost all night with that, that conversation of closure where you you know you talk about things I mean, when I was a brat as a teenager you know when I got a chance to apologize or I got a chance to tell her you know, hey, I'm gonna be okay you know, I've married this wonderful man I've I've got this in store for me, you know, be comfortable with the fact that I've gotten to that place in my life where I'm I'm happy where I am you know and and I didn't need to apologize for that stuff. But it's you say everything you need to stay knowing that that's the conversation you're having. Yeah, yeah. Just take a moment and have a drink of water. Gonna have some coffee but you're right about grief. I mean, gosh, there is no there is no linear checklist of all the things that you go through in In this particular order, and, you know, my Nana passed away when I was 10. So that's like 40, sorry, 3034 years ago, and I still have moments where I just burst into tears because something's reminded me of a smell something, usually it's a smell. That's me, or I see a particular bird. Pardon me? And I just like, oh, no, I used to love those bits. And then off I go, you know, it's like, you're never, you never stopped grieving someone. I don't think it's just in different ways as time. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I've told you know, there's a lot of people that say, Hey, it'll be okay. But you know, it's not, you know, I used to hate it, when people would tell me that, because it's never going to be okay, that I lost my mom, but it's going to be different. I'm gonna get to that point where I can look back at the gift of the time I had, and not at what I've, what's been taken from me. Because it would be, you know, it's in times like that, it's very easy to get angry and, and resent, you know, whoever or whatever, you know, it's not fair. You know, all this sort of emotion, did you sort of go through that, as well. I didn't go through the it's not fair kind of stage. I remember the first few weeks afterward, you know, you're you're calling the banks and taking care of the credit card from the medical bills and things and I had my dad to go through all of it with but you're very, you know, systematic once you right away, which I think is a blessing, because you're you're not I don't think at least for me, I was not capable of facing the fact that she was gone. And those first few weeks, it was just not going to happen. It was actually the day I found the letter about the book that I finally realized, you know, it's the casseroles have stopped coming, the family's gone, people have gone back to their lives, and mine will never be the same again. And that's the first day that I really let myself go. And, you know, but I think for me, this, the place I stayed the longest, is also the place, that's the most detrimental, and that's the guilt. The guilt that, you know, things you said the smallest little things, you know, teeny tiny little things that the person probably had didn't even remember. And all of a sudden, they come flooding back and you just feel so guilty about the things you've said and, and certain things and the fear that, you know, I had, I went into an instant state of fear with my dad, I wasn't I couldn't lose my dad, I every little thing you know, don't get in a car dad, or make sure you're taking your medicine or so all this kind of stuff. And I stayed down with my dad for a couple months afterward. Because I was able, you know, thank God, I was able to do that. But you know, and so it's those two feelings that really were hard for me. And that guilt took a lot of time to get over, I did go see a therapist. I am not despite the fact that I talked about it on podcast. Now. At that point, I was not someone that would share my emotions. I don't cry in front of people. It's just not, not me. You know, I don't want to I don't want to show it's not a weakness whatsoever to express your emotions. But to me, I felt like it was showing a weakness. And I couldn't do that. I also wanted to be strong for my dad, he'd lost someone he'd been married to for 43 years. And, you know, it's it's and he was young. I mean, my mom was only 63 when she passed away. You know, and so my dad was in his mid 60s as well. And you just don't expect something like that. And, you know, but instead I let myself stay, you know, and it was it was not a therapist that got me there. She said something about guilt. And I all of a sudden realize that's what's preventing me from moving forward. I have got to get this guilt. I've got to work through it. I have got to let it go. And and so that was the biggest part for me. But you know, I never went through the anger. I never went through the denial. I think I just let myself be overcome with the guilt. Yeah, my dad sold their house and moved into another house. And that was a hard thing to say goodbye to and then you know, going through clothes. And you know, my mom had a lot of beautiful jewelry. So I've gotten to keep that and you know, but I did get rid of clothes except for the few that I will never wear. But they just hold special memories for me. I mean, one of them was this, you know, duster jacket she used to wear to fan with the opera every time it was her thing that's not going anywhere. And there's pieces of furniture that are memories of my childhood, which are completely not my style, but I can't give them up. So they're in my you know, guest room, which is the collective room of things that I don't know what to do with. You know, it's the memory room. Yeah. But it's a difficult thing. I think with every little thing. I've been able to let go I've healed a little bit. Knowing that, you know, it's, it's just a process. Yeah, yeah. And it will just take as long as it takes to go through different motions at different times. And it's just It's an ongoing thing, isn't it? It doesn't have an ingress. No, it never has an end, but it gets better. Just going back to you to what you said earlier, you said about how you've gained confidence. Do you think you write another book? I have another book idea. It's actually related to birth paradise. And it's the story of the parents that are in it. I see a lot of my parents and those two characters. And it's funny, because there's a little bit of everybody and all the characters. I mean, there's a lot of my dad and the little brother, my mom, you know, clearly didn't like my high school boyfriend. And I didn't know that until I read the character, the high school boyfriend, I was like, Oh, okay. I know who that is. And the, the way the parents met in this book, is the way my parent my parents actually met, they met at UC Berkeley. And so it would be really neat for me to go back, I'd have to go back much further. In time, since this book starts in 1967, which was a whole nother issue with turning to write it was that it happened during time period, I wasn't alive. That was, that was a lot of research going into that. But yes, I'd have to go back quite a bit. But it would be it would almost start the connection again. And it would give me a chance to go to my dad and find out about his life and use that to put into it. So it's, it's there, it's in my mind, I've tried to start it and it's I just can't get past the first sentence. You know, and I think that's an important thing for a writer to recognize when you've hit that writer's block and just walk away for a while. I've got too much going on with my clients and, and keeping up with my seven year old. Ish, just not right now. It's more of a stress than it is of a way to relieve stress. And that's, you know, writing Berta paradise was very stressed, you know, a way for me to escape the world, a way for me to let go of some stress and get that emotion out. It's, and it went in very positive way, this new book trying to write it, I just felt this is a negative thing for me. And it's time to walk away. So I don't know, is really the answer to the question. I hope so. Yeah, I hope you dig through it when the time's right. You know, when, when life when life gives you that little nod and says, Okay, now it's your turn. And I'm a big believer in that, that, you know, things happen for a reason. And there's little, you know, I, I always my mom always kind of taught me that, you know, you can't control what happens in life, but you can control how you respond to it. And that there's moments where you're given gifts, but whether or not you choose to take them is completely your choice, and you're the one that writes your own story. And that actually, is heavily put into bird of paradise, because it's something that my mom and I had talked about so many times that you know, nothing, nothing is going to be, you know, necessarily given to you, you have you're presented with these gifts, and then it's your choice whether or not you go with it, and they can they can come to you at any moment. But they'll come to you at the right moment when you need it the most. And so hopefully that that gift of writing a new book will present itself at some point and then I will jump on it that is so good. Can you share with us how readers can get a hold of your book? Yeah, it's sold exclusively on Amazon. It is theirs Believe it or not a lot of books called Bird of Paradise. Most of them are nonfiction about the actual flower and bird. So be careful there. But it's a yes. So it's it's by Maryland and Hughes and Emily HUGHES JOHNSON. And it's on Kindle Unlimited. There's a paperback Kindle itself. So yeah, I would love people to read it. I mean, sharing my mom's work with the world has just been incredible. Yeah, absolutely. Well, if you like it, review it because it's really important. Read these reviews make the world go round. I do. And unfortunately, I mean, it's something I find myself doing more since having published a book as an unknown author. I mean, I'm completely no one knows who I am. My goal was to sell one book to someone that wasn't related to me. Yeah. And, you know, it's happened, it's been great. But, you know, I find, you know, reviews are so difficult, particularly with Kindle Unlimited, you know, people aren't going to go back and take the time, because we're all busy to go write a review, even though you know, I know what the sales are and things like that. And so, I've tried to find, you know, books that don't have a lot of reviews, because I think a lot of incredible books are missed, because people look at that, and not the book. Yeah. And I have found some incredible books that don't have that many reviews that I just wish, you know, I hope I don't, you know, I don't want to miss out on something from these authors. I'm not trying to tell people to get well, yes, go buy my book. But I'm not trying to say, don't miss it because of reviews. But you know, and I think that's something the publishing industry is so incredible now that they have opened up smaller hybrid publishers, self publishing, you know, things like that, that you have this option for really talented writers who, for one reason or another, can't get in with the top five publishers, and a lot of that is money. It takes a lot of, you know, money and time to go query and get an agent and then get into these publishing companies, and they're so rigid about what they will and will not, you know, published and I follow a lot of writers on Instagram and Twitter, and one of the things from the smaller writers is they get turned down, you know, they get these letters say, it's an incredible story, we love it, but you don't have enough social media followers. You know, and that's, that's, that is so limited. Just you have to wonder how many incredible stories are out there that will never be seen, because of something so unrelated. It's not about you know, in I'm sure, you know, the top five publishers are wonderful, but, you know, you almost concerned about sales more than getting a beautifully written story out there. And that's a real shame, because, I don't know, I have this feeling that, you know, social media exists now. But will it be around forever, you know, like, these, the stories and, and books will probably outlive all of this stuff, you know, and that would be a shame for something to have, just because it was in this time period, when social media was around. And it's being judged by that, for that not to be shared. It's a it shine. Social media is great, and being able to connect, you know, this huge world, but it is also so detrimental to society. And I use it I have to, I mean, that's one of the ways that I market the book, I don't have a choice. But if it wasn't for that, I would start giving up social media, because I just, you know, it's just not it can be you can go down the rabbit hole very quickly. And it's not necessarily a good thing. Oh, I basically got I ended up getting off Facebook for my own personal stuff, because I just, I just couldn't put up with the rubbish anymore. I just thought, like rabbit hole stuff, I just get dragged into things and think why am I caring about this, you know? So now I just go on Instagram, and then I just link it to go on my Facebook. So I never have to go into Facebook. But then I miss a lot of things. If people tag me and stuff or invite me to things. I'm like, oh, sorry, I missed your best friend's having a baby and you don't know about it? Exactly, yeah, put it on Instagram, then Oh, no. Share it with everybody. And then I'll be able to, you know, call and say, Hey, congratulations. But it is funny, like this whole thing that's meant to bring us closer, like we know what people are doing. So we feel like we know what they're doing. But we're not really knowing what they're doing. Because we're just seeing all these little tiny curated aspects of their lives. And it's, it's sort of pushing us apart more in a way. Well, and I think you try and present your best self on social media. I mean, who doesn't you know, you don't you want to make sure you're presenting the the highlights and so many people forget that. It doesn't matter who you are, life is dirty. I mean, it's there's going to be moments where you don't want to present yourself to the world. And so you don't and I think it gives a false sense of who people are, unfortunately, unless you're one of those people that is blatantly you know, getting yourself out there to just showing all the aspects of your life and there are some people out there and I appreciate you know, the people that do that. I think it takes a lot of courage to be able to put Good, the Bad and the Ugly out there. But I think that's something a lot of people unfortunately forget that this isn't showing the whole story. And I think it it negatively influences a lot of people. It's happened to me, I've looked at things and I'm like, gosh, you know, it's it's that that big, ugly, jealous. forbear, yeah. You're like, why can't I be doing the ad? Or or you know, and it's, it's not necessarily happening that way few you know, mom is like that too, you start comparing yourself to other mothers. And you know, every mom is different, every situation is different. And, and you know, you, you want this pride and you're your child and you want your child to excel and exceed, but if you're not careful, you're starting to compare them to others, and not to their best self. And, you know, and I've had to pull myself back from that every once in a while. Question, am I being a good mom? You know, and but it's, it's, am I being a good mom, for my son? Not for the kids of the entire world? Yeah, yeah. It's hard. I mean, that's the you know, people think physically being a mother is hard. But there is a lot of emotional second guessing. And, you know, and I'm doing this correctly. What, you know, am I a terrible mother? Am I a good mother? Am I you know, am I completely screwing my kid up for the future? And unfortunately, a lot of people don't talk about that unless they're moms themselves. Oh, yeah. That's the thing like this, the mom guilt, that sort of label that we've got, I call it a hashtag mom guilt, because it's like, it's just been created for, for social media, but it's huge, like the way that we're forced to judge ourselves. Because I don't know what I find mostly. Is it? Other mums too, but mostly people that don't have children? Or like, or how come she's doing that? Why isn't she with a child? Or? Oh, she, she's going out again that night? You know, like, they're just always making judgments upon you, which makes, then you question yourself, like you said, you, you know, you don't have that self confidence. So you're like, I don't know what I'm doing. But I don't know is this, I get sick of this whole guilt guilt trip that moms feel like they have to go on? Well, I think just you know, societal norms, I think a bulk of society hasn't gotten past the 1950s. Mom, you know, where the mother is 100% The mother, you know, and that's your focus. And that's what you do. And you You know, I don't want to say you give up life, because that is wrong to any mother and the 1950s. It's not that but there's this almost, you know, it's almost Hollywood created view of what a mother should be. And that hasn't, that hasn't morphed to match the sign of the times, you know, we're way past the 1950s. Now, things are different. Women can be more independent, and they can start putting themselves you know, ahead of things because it's the healthy thing to do. And I think when someone sees a mother that does that doesn't understand that, that that is not being a bad mother is being a good mother. That is That is how, you know, we we deserve to be able to do stuff like that, so that we can come home and then put 100% focus into our families again, because it's impossible. i It's exhausting. And I don't think I've seen my friends that are moms that have just stopped everything to be a mother, which you know, when you have a newborn, you kind of have to do that you don't really have a choice. But if you never change as your child grows older, either. It's very detrimental. And it was for me, I mean, I've learned to start going out with my friends a little bit, not to date the podcast, but COVID put a stop on that one pretty good. But I'm really excited to start doing that again. You know, it's funny because I, during the last few years with everything that's been going on, I have found myself going back to that time where I'm not able to go to the gym, I'm, you know, my son's home, I don't have that that time to myself while he's at school. And I've I've relapsed into that forgetting about myself every once in a while. And when I do that, I go back to that article I talked about from Rachael Harris and reread it gives myself a little bit of a kick in the rear like oops, give yourself a pep talk and then off you go again. To find that letter, it would just be like, oh, man, like, I don't know. It's just It's huge, isn't it? I'm gonna go on the tie at the time, I didn't realize just how big it was. Yeah. You know, you kind of don't you're not thinking so much at that point. Yeah, yeah. Like you said, you going through the motions and doing all the practical stuff that it's got to be done and good on you. I'm really glad my curiosity got the better of me and I tried to get to her computer. I mean, she's, I'm sure she's you mile and down. She knew I would try and do that. Good on it. I really loved having a chat with you today, Emily and hearing your story. It's such a unique story. I'm sure I'll never speak to anyone again in my life who has done what you've done. Congratulations. It's a massive undertaking, and it's it's incredible. And I'm really looking forward to reading in. Yeah, well, thank you. Yeah. It's been crazy. Yeah. Wow. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Danielle Kloberdanz Netherlands born author S2 Ep52 Listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts (itunes) Spotify and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Danielle Kloberdanz, an author based in San Diego, California and a mother of 4. Danielle was born and raised in the Netherlands. A child of 3, Danielle was always interested in children, and began baby sitting the neighbours children when she was 12. She was drawn to big families, and the energy they bring. Danielle was fascinated with children's growth and development and went on to study Developmental Psychology at College, It was on a trip to the US for her sister's wedding that she met the man who was soon to be her husband, 9 months later in fact! They enjoyed a whirlwind romance, travelling Europe together, before being married and settling down. Her dream was to have 4 children, and Danielle was determined to make that happen, even in the face of health issues, bed rest, premature births and miscarriages. But when Danielle finally realised her lifelong dream of having 4 children, it was then that she slowly realised that she no longer existed as a person, and her idea of what being a 'good mum' meant, was challenged. Danielle released her first book Inner Compass Mom: Finding Peace and Purpose in the Midst of Motherhood in May 2021 which outlines her journey, and the life changing experience which lead to her new outlook on motherhood. **This episode contains discussions around miscarriage, premature birth, ** Connect with Danielle Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to gain touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest this week is Danielle Clover Dan's an author based in San Diego, California, and a mum of four children. Danielle was born and raised in the Netherlands, a child of three. Danielle was always interested in children and babies, and she began babysitting the neighbor's children when she was 12. She was drawn to big families and the energy they bring. Danielle was fascinated with children's growth and development, and went on to study developmental psychology at college. It was on a trip to the US for her sister's wedding that she met the man who assumed to be your husband. Nine months later, in fact, they enjoyed a whirlwind romance traveling Europe together before being married and settling down. Her dream was always to have four children. And Danielle was determined to make that happen. Even in the face of health issues, bed rest, premature births and miscarriages. But when Daniel finally realized her lifelong dream of having those four children, it was then that she slowly realized that she no longer existed as a person. And her idea of what being a good mom meant was challenged. Danielle released her first book, inner compass mum finding peace and purpose in the midst of motherhood in May of 2021. The book outlines her journey and the life changing experience which led to her new outlook on motherhood. This episode contains discussions around miscarriage and premature birth. Music you'll hear today is from Australian ambient music trio LM Joe, featuring myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John N is used with permission. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Welcome along today, Danielle, it's such a pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast. Well, thanks for having me. I am intrigued by your podcasts and listened to several and Oh, thank you. I was excited to be on this one. Awesome. Wow, what time is it in your your zone? Well, we've just gone past 11:30am So it's quite a nice Sunday morning. Just nice and lazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. It looks sunny in your place. Yeah, I've had to close the blinds because the sun's coming in so much. It's like distorting, like how I look to you. Yes, I can see the glow. I have to do some artificial glow because the sun is going down here. So yeah. What's the what's the time there? It's 7pm. Right. Yeah. We just had the time change the, you know, daylight savings. Yeah, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So we're about to you right now. In San Diego, San Diego, San Diego, California. Right now you're in San Diego. But whereabouts did you start out in life? Well, I was born and raised in Holland, in the Netherlands. And I well, I moved to San Diego or to actually to Orange County, California, at the age of 26, barely 26. But before I met my husband, I you know, just did the normal thing and went to college to study developmental psychology in Amsterdam. And then I, I had, you know, a job for about a year it was hard to find a job in my field actually. And I worked at a temp agency for a year and that's when I met my my husband during that time. But yeah, so I just I, to be honest, I never really cared about a career. I just wanted to have a family and but what do you do? You're not just gonna sit around wait for some guy to come along. Are you, you know, you got to make some of your life and then hopefully it all happen. So I went to college, and I always loved babysitting, I loved hanging out with kids, I loved watching their, you know, development and how they think and how they would learn. So I was intrigued by children's. So developmental psychology really seemed to fit fit me. And so that's what I pursued. And yeah, until I met my husband, when I was 25. Actually, he got married when I was 26. And then I moved over to the United States. Yeah. So that that interest in wanting to become a mom, that intense drive, was that something cultural or something that you'd been exposed to growing up? Was that sort of the norm that you would grow up? Women would have children? Or was that something innate in yourself? Do you think? Well, my mom was a stay at home mom, until I was and I'm, I'm the youngest of three, I have two older sisters, and we're all a couple of years apart. And then my mom started working when I was in my mid teens, so to say, but I always just I wanted to be a mom, I wasn't sure what I would. I wasn't really sure what I was good at. Like in school, I was kind of an average student, like, nothing really stood out. The actually the best the subject that was that was easiest for me, was actually English, English is mandatory middle school and high school. And that was the only subject that was kind of came more natural to me. It turned out came in handy later, for sure. But I was intrigued by by science, but I wasn't very good at it. You know, like math, oh, my gosh, you know, just just not my thing. So I was like, What am I good at? What is my passion. And then I started babysitting the family across the street from us when I was like, 12, just an hour. So mom could do groceries, and I just loved it. And they, they had a big family, they ended up having five kids. And the parents themselves were from large families. So whenever there was a birthday party, I was invited, and the whole house was just filled with this wonderful energy. People were laughing and having wonderful comfort stations. And everybody just seemed happy. And I just wanted to create a big happy family for myself. And that's all I really wanted. I just wanted to be a stay at home mom, and I thought I would thoroughly enjoy it. Well, we'll talk about that later how to, you know, the life that I wanted happen and then, you know, it turns out isn't really as fulfilling as I had hoped it would be. talking us through, you know, you met your husband, you got married? Was it then like straight away? Right, let's do this. We're gonna have this family that I've always dreamed of. How did how did it sort of go from there? Yes. So when? So I met my husband at my sister's wedding actually, she was able, I mean, we all grew up in Holland. You know, we my sister, so but she was able to get a two year visa to work in the US. And during that time she met a guy decided to marry him. And so we went to the wedding. And that's where I met my husband. And we so we dated for a while. I mean, nothing happened at the wedding. People can read the story in my mom, they can read all the details and how all that went down. But basically, because I was living in Holland, we basically dated internationally and we traveled in Europe and we dated in you know, Belgium like Bruges and Antwerp and Barcelona and then basically, seven months, but no, it was eight months after we met he proposed to me in in Prague, so and the next month we were married so like within like nine months out After we met, we were married. And we, we read it, and then a couple months later was able to emigrate. Yeah, we were married in February. And I emigrated in April. So that all happened really fast. And so we decided to wait a little bit with having kids because also, my husband wanted to get his master's in business. So we decided to just get that out of the way before we'd have kids and enjoy a little bit more freedom before you know, babies would arrive and get to know each other even better each other nine months. But I will say, when you travel together, you get to know each other really fast. And it's either going to work or it's not. And it was going to work. So we we were just both convinced, you know, once you know, you just know. And we just celebrated our 24th wedding anniversary. Stories isn't it's a real love story. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. My husband comes from a large family. By the way, I was thrilled to find out when I met him, and we get to know each other, that my husband is one of eight children. He's number five. And I just loved it. And his older siblings already had kids. And so every family get together was just filled with, you know, that same kind of energy. The laughter everybody's talking, and just having a great time and bringing up both stories from the past. And just I don't know, there's just something about big families that I just love. And yeah, so he's like, Okay, you want to have kids? Okay, well, three, or fours. What do you have in mind? Well, first half of what I grew up with, so I guess, we'll figure out how to manage that my mum managed to, you know, raise eight children. I don't know how she did it. Anyway, yeah. So yeah, so you're pretty happy with four. Four is a good number. Well, it's an even though it I was I was the last one of three. So sometimes I did feel like, you know, my two older sisters would, would play together. And I was always a little too young or third wheel basically. So I always figured, you know, if possible, even numbers, and my husband loves numbers. He loves even numbers. He's, he's his background is in accounting. He's not he does production now. But he, he loves even balance. And it worked out well actually. Having two sets of kids basically. Yeah, tell us about that. Yeah. Yeah. The first two are close in age. They're 19 months apart. And and then I felt tell you after the second one, because I always had complicated pregnancies. I was putting bedrest I had preterm labor with every every child. With the first one. I made it to 38 weeks, so I thought, well, maybe it wasn't that big of an issue. Maybe we'll be fine. So we tried for another one. And I, I got pregnant, fast. And so they're 90 months apart, but I was definitely put up that this again with the second one. So she was actually born five weeks, early at 35 weeks. But the fine she was in the NICU for like eight days, I think. And then she came home. So that was a bit like, oh, wow, that's, you know, you know, a second pregnancy and now you know, we are preterm here, but 90 months is is a bit challenging. I think any parent who has kids close in age knows that you probably will have to in diapers for a while. And then there's this sibling rivalry that really was an issue. And it's a lot. So I actually thought, oh, and at the time, my husband was really busy. Like he worked 60 hours a week. He traveled a lot. So I felt like I was a single mom. So after having to I thought there's no way You can have more kids, I can barely manage to what was I thinking, wanting to have all these kids, it's just no way. But as life went on, and the kids got to be a little bit older, and you know of the diaper phase and things like that, I did start secretly longing for another baby, there's just something in me that said, I don't want to be done, baby, there's something about having babies, and I don't know, I just didn't want to be done. And then actually, what happened was, I had, I had just regular you know, bloodwork done just a doctor's appointment to suit annual checkup, or whatever it was just like, hey, we haven't checked your blood. And while let's just see. And it turned out that my platelet count was really, really low. And so they sent me to a specialist. And the specialist said, this is this is not good. This is not a good situation, we got to figure out what's going on, because you could have an autoimmune disease disorder. It might be leukemia, it might be a mess. And I was just shocked. Because I mean, I did feel healthy, but you just never know what's going on, you just don't know. So I went back for several months to get checked and checked. And it turned out what probably happened was my birth control, which my naturopathic doctor said, like, why don't you stop taking birth control, because I had switched and sometimes that I guess, with some can be the cause of, you know, but the platelets start to stick anyway, not a doctor. So, but after several months, my blood started. So unlike normal levels again, and then I think it was like seven months. And my doctor said, Okay, I guess you're, you're healthy. It must have been that and, you know, you have a clean bill of health. And I remember sitting in my car after that appointment, and I just started crying like, oh my gosh, you know, like, this is like a miracle you because, you know, I had so much fear, like, what if I have a disease? What if I have something that's really life changing? Or, you know, potentially worse, so? And I remember it so well, that moment, because I think our youngest was about two or three, two years old. And I thought, Well, what do I want to do, you have a second chance of living healthy life. And I just remember, I know exactly what I want. And I want to I want to have more babies. And I want to stop living in fear. Because there are no guarantees in life. There really aren't, you don't know what tomorrow's gonna bring. So I figured I might as well go for my big dream and figure it out. And right at the time, I My husband was able to get the job in San Diego. And we ended up moving and everything became a lot more manageable and simple. And just a normal 40 hour workweek and a short commute. So that created space for us to have another baby and and then yeah, number girl number three came along and and then you know, I was ready like after yours ready paid. Let's do this. Let's have another one. Come on baby number four, right all in well. And then I think God or the Universe told me that so fast, not so fast. So I miscarried a couple of times, which was, which was really shocking to me that really, that really messed with me. Well woke me up actually, just to be the more I think the more grateful for how easy it was always for me to get pregnant. I would always get pregnant right away and the Healthy Kids and that's something you can never take for granted, you know. But I was going through a trying time of Wow. So I am feeling this really strong desire for a fourth child. That just felt so right to me like, No, we're gonna have four kids. This is what I wanted. This is what I'm gonna get. This is yeah, why wouldn't I Why wouldn't that happen to me or for me? And because of the two miscarriages and because I get pregnant And right away. I'm like, I need time I need to figure out, I need to get some answers. And I was already very spiritual. And what I do is I basically asked the universe guide me show me, what am I supposed to do? Give me some answers. And I knew I had to just give it some time and like, I'm not gonna, we're not going to try for a few months, several months, we're just going to wait and then try to think about it and just just give it maybe even half a year. And then we'll see if I get any signs if I changed my mind, I don't know. And then, pretty quickly after I decided actually, to just wait for a few months, I had this dream. I don't know if I should go to all these details. It's all in the book. But it basically was, I was at this convention. And there was this Native American Chief is very wise man that anybody had questions? He could answer like he was connected to God university could just channeled answers. And I was waiting patiently for my turn. And I kind of close my eyes kind of meditating is it was all in my dream. And, of course, I knew what I was going to ask like, are we meant to have a fourth child because I believe you can want something but I also believe it has to like, integrate with what maybe the universe wants for you. Or there's some mystery around that. Like, what is freewill? What is destiny? What are we meant to do here? So I just wasn't sure. Anyway, in my dream, when I finally it was my turn to ask this chief. I opened my eyes and it was kind of waiting. I had been it's gonna be kind of weird. The teeth was not there. But there was big poster that said, Yes, of course, you meant to have another child just don't wait. You need to try now. And I'm like, gosh, I woke up and I go, Oh, my gosh, it's here. This is it. And it's I don't know any any listener who who's worked with beans before and has had these guiding dreams, the energy that comes from these dreams. It's so different. You feel transformed, you wake up, and you know, this is different. This is not just oh, you're just processing your day today. Your worries, your anxieties. This is this is a lot more and you just know, this is it. I have to follow this. And yeah, sure enough, nine months later, we had our baby boy. It's like, I will live my life that way. If I if I'm stuck. I don't know. I throw my I know, there's an answer for me. And I throw it out there in the universe to God or whatever you want to call it. Just expect an answer to come and it always comes you got to learn to receive it. Yeah, that's it isn't about being open and allowing it to come and not questioning or not trying to second guess it's just what do you have to tell me and just waiting for it to come? Yeah, it does. If you Yeah, if you're open to it, you'll you'll get it? Yeah, I'm a big believer in that too. Yeah. So you hate we've got your four kids, you've got your dream. And how did things go from them? So I think moms who are listening can recognize that you know, the first couple of years the baby years toddler years, they're just intense It's physical. It's draining I mean, you don't sleep at night you're just chasing them they're starting to crawl I mean it's it's very demanding. And and then you think well, it's gonna get easier as they get a little older and it does it does get easier so that's what I thought you know, let's see had you know, first of all, after I had two kids that well it's gonna get easier it was very hard in the beginning with only 19 months apart, and then it got easier and then yeah, we added more kids so I thought okay, it's a lot I got a kid in elementary school and a preschool and then again, a toddler at home and a newborn but it's gonna get easier we're gonna get through this and many others have done this before me. And and and something Of course, they'll get easier. But there's also other things that got harder, you know, you're dealing with four kids with very different personalities, and every kid needs something else from you. And I think one of the frustrating parts is, you think you've figured something out with one kid, and you're like, Oh, this is great, it's working, this is working, my kid is actually doing what I needed to do, or everything is kind of flowing better, and you try to apply it to another kid forget, it's not going to work. Or two weeks later, a month later, the same system, same approach, it's just not working anymore. So you constantly have to, like reinvent yourself or something. And so, it, it was harder and or in different ways. And that feeling that I was looking for, and longing for, of like creating this, basically, this this house full of joy, these kids running around and being all happy and bringing me joy and liveliness, and you know, the whole purpose. It. Yeah, there were moments like that. Absolutely. You know, but not enough for me to say yes, now I have exactly what I wanted. Technically I did it looked like that on the outside, I have exactly a good list, a great husband, Healthy Kids, great neighborhood, beautiful home, good schools, and something was still missing. And I wasn't happy. And I, for the longest time I would beat myself up stuffing so ungrateful. Be grateful for all the gifts in your life. You should be happy, you should be happy, you should be happy. Why are you not happy. But at some point, when my youngest was in preschool, I realized, stop, you got to start listening to yourself. Because if you don't make a change, now, you're going to end up being bitter and unhappy and resentful, and you do not want to go. You don't want to be that person. So that's when I went on my my journey of getting some answers of how I would make some changes in my life. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming four kids, you've outlined you know all the different stages. It's also demanding like weird. Did you actually fit in there? Did you feel like you were just that you existed only for your children? That was the only thing that you did was meet the needs of your children? Basically, yeah, I basically I was wanting to be moms. So now I know, the way I define being a good mom. And I'm connected to a lot of moms in especially in my neighborhood. And basically, I now know why I got so stuck and why I wasn't as fulfilled with my situations because I the way I defined what it means to be a good mom. And that's how we get stuck. That's how I got stuck. I will find being a good mom as someone who you got to give everything to your children and you just do everything, maybe not do everything for them. Because you know, they gotta learn to do things on their own. But, you know, you you create that family, you create the memories and you you know, you drop everything and you make sure to go to the birthday parties, and they go to try different sports and music and, and everything because you give give give because that's a bit mum. Because when you're a good mom, you make sure you you give them the right education and that they do really well in school. So you support all their education, their school, and if they need anything, you're right there talking to the teacher, whatever it takes to give this child and all these kids the best possible situation so that they can go to college and have a good career later on because then there'll be happy and then and I didn't realize that that's where it all came from until I had my spiritual awakening a few years ago. It was so because I thought if they did well and checked all the boxes, you know The boxes, graduating high school, going into college graduating, they're finding a good company to work for getting married, given me grandbabies, that will mean that I had done a good job as a mom. And when I had my spiritual awakening, I realized all the flaws in my thinking, because it's just not true. It's just not true. And it doesn't mean the opposite is true. Like, yeah, that. Because, yeah, we all influence our lives. Our kids, like they influence everybody that who we meet, who, whose lives we touch we do. But when I had my awakening, I saw that the picture is so much bigger than we experience in our day to day life, or at least that than what I had experienced in my day to day like, it's like, almost like I used to have tunnel vision. And then even the narrow vision I had of my life and life in general, was also tainted by this lens that was so colored by life experiences, by biases by judgments by your culture by a roll up. Yes. So when I had that, that awakening, which just basically happened in broad daylight in my kitchen, not being under the influence of anything, every reason? Why did you smoke? Me? And people can read about that in the compass. Mom, how that all went down? I won't go into details. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It shifted my perspective completely about everything that I believed was true, you know, waking up to all my false and limiting beliefs. Yeah, so when you had that, how did you then make the changes, I suppose like, it's, like you say, had this moment, and it's the sixth you've had this. I don't know what the word is epiphany, it's, you've realized how you can live your life in a different way to, to, to feel, you know, meet your needs, I guess, where you like practically, then like, how did you think, Oh, how am I actually going to do this? I suppose. That's a big question, I suppose. Yeah. Well, let me let me try to answer that. Because about a year before it had that awakening, I had already decided that I needed to make a change. I think my youngest my son was about three years old. And I already had recognized or acknowledged that. I'm not happy. Stop denying it. You need to make a change, because this is not going to get any better automatically. I have to, and I didn't know how I was going to make a change. But I realized what I was what I was craving was silence. I just needed solitude. Just silence. And not all that mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, you know, it isn't just constant. They always need as soon as they see you for a while. This has just always been fascinating to me. They're playing nicely in their room, the doors open. So you walk by often they realize, oh, we need more. I'm like, No, he didn't need me for like half an hour. You didn't need me. And I'm walking by. And it's awesome. They need you. They need you for whatever, they'll come up with something. They make it up on the spot. They just need mom. So anyway, I was really craving just solitude and I was craving reading books again. I was never a big reader. But I was always interested in spirituality and psychology. And I hadn't read a book in 10 years or so. Because if you have kids, you don't even want to I mean, I talked to a lot of moms who are going through that now. I mean, I I published my book a year ago, almost. And a lot of moms with young ones. They say, I have your book. I just I just can't get to it. I am like I hear you. I hear you. So I actually recorded the audiobook because moms can listen to audiobooks or podcasts while they're folding laundry or commuting to work or whatever. So yeah, that'll help solve that. But yeah, I didn't. I didn't read a book for like 10 years and then it was Breathing, oh, information and getting that inspiration again, about you know, so I started reading. And then what actually happened was, I was so intrigued by what I read. In these books, I started taking notes, I started journaling about all these amazing insights, it was like, it was like I had been asleep for 10 years. And also, there's a whole new world out there, that doesn't really have kids in it. And it's like, so amazing. And I was just inspired again. And so yeah, I that's how I started to come alive. Again, reading and journaling, and even doing a little bit of art, drawing a little bit of painting again, and just taking time for myself. There's a quote in the book where you say that you discovered parts of yourself that you had forgotten about. And that would have been just an incredible thing, like you say, you got back to painting and creating, did that sort of take you back to a time where you didn't have children? That? Yes, yes. And I think the biggest thing that has to do with creating art is its flow. You need and you need time to get into that flow. And it's when you have you have kids at home, forget it, every few minutes, you're going to be interrupted. And that's you just can't have that flow. So when when my youngest started going into peaceful kindergarten, I had just more time and of course, I was very realistic, I was very lucky that I was able to stay at home with my kids and that I didn't have to have a job outside of the home, a paying job outside of the home. So I could actually do that and take some time. To myself and just schedule it. I had to schedule it like schedule a block of a couple of hours a week to make sure would happen because it's still busy. You know, you're doing all kinds of stuff. Yeah. Yeah, just because the children aren't there. It doesn't mean everything's that long and keeps on coming somehow. Yeah. That's why it's actually funny when you say about laundry. That's like the Bane I think every mother's existence, it just doesn't stop. And one day I was complaining about it to my own mom, and she said, You know, one day you're gonna miss doing their laundry. And I was like, Okay, mom. All right. Like, I could see that that was saying, you know, you grow up and you move out and we miss it. So I thought, right, I don't take it for granted. Like you're saying before, don't take things. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Let's do that. It's okay. Yeah, I hear that too. From I remember people saying, well, one day you're gonna miss this man. Yeah, but I still am struggling right now. Exactly. You still got to do it deprived and still and I think it's okay. For moms who are hearing this are overwhelmed because I think all moms go through this stage, but they're just overwhelmed. And when somebody tells them one day, you're gonna miss it. So try to enjoy it and it's like, no, you're not listening to me. I'm overwhelmed. It's okay to feel overwhelmed and and don't feel guilty about it. It's it's part of the journey it's it's okay it's a lot raising kids is a lot especially in today's world it can be overwhelming Yeah. comes down to even like 20 years ago like very different worlds. Yeah, that's for sure. You briefly mentioned guilt there. I'd love to bring you to one of the topics that I chat to my mom's about on this show is mom guilt and I always put it in air quotes because I know it's it's contrived word that I feel like our our social media society has made this this special word hashtag mom guilt. Yeah. That you know that experience for you. How do you How can you sort of relate to that? That mum guilt. I have definitely had my my share of mom guilt a lot, actually. Especially when you have four different kids and some some kids just need more support than other kids and it's kids don't come with a manual for First of all, and when you really think about it, I think somebody wants told me that there are more parenting books than dieting books. And to me, that only tells you one thing, nobody has really figured it out yet either. Otherwise, there would be one book, and we'd all be reading it. And so nobody has figured it all out. We have to just keep learning as we go, you can read all the books you want before you have that baby, and you will never be prepared for what is to come. Once that baby is there, you never will be you. So you just do the best you can you figure it out. But in the meantime, we definitely go through things. I can't imagine any mom and sister in law, and like mom's figured it all out. But I think all moms go through guilt. You go to bed at night, and you're like, Why did I raise my voice? Why did I bite my tongue? Why did I say this? Why did I? Or should I should have done this or should have done that? I've done this. You're constantly doubting yourself, like wondering if you should have done this or that. And you just feel guilty? Like? Because you're not sure what to do? Because nobody? Well, nobody will tell you that's not really the right thing. Because we don't even well, sometimes we want people to tell us but on the other hand, one size does not fit all. It's a thing that I've been frustrated with before when you see titles of books. And it sounds like Oh 10 steps to raise and that begins or well adjusted kids. And for some foster kids who have well integrated brains, for example, the the like the sticker system or the reward system, you know, to get kids to maybe clean up their room and do their chores. For kids who have well integrated brains and rebalance, it works like a charm. It really does work well. But for kids who are not forget it, it's not that easy. And it's frustrating when when you have a child that is, you know, a little more complex. And I know there's a lot of moms out there who struggled with that, like, well, it doesn't work for my kid, or you need to have a lot more layers to that system of support, to have somewhat of an effect. But anyway, I kind of digress here, but back to mom guilt. So yeah, it's real because we feel we're not sure if we're doing the right thing. But when I had my awakening, instantly, it was gone, all the guilt was gone. All the guilt, it was gone, all the should haves could have they were gone, be saved did not matter at all. What mattered was what I realized, as I was showered with this incredible, unconditional love that washed away anything negative. Whether it was guilt. I mean, I felt forgiven, even though forgiveness wasn't even really needed, because we're not guilty. We we just it's not easy being a human being. It's that's just the reality that because we live in our mental world, and that's it gets very conflicted. There's a lot of conflict happening in our mental world. And then when he was in that state, the guilt was gone, because I knew, I knew with every fiber of my being that all I needed to do was the best I could and it was enough. We're here to learn to grow and to evolve as individual souls and also as a collective and, and bold influence. You know, we influence the collective and the collective influences. As it turns out, there's just no way around that. It's hand in hand. And he, yeah, I realized I had such a narrow perspective before that experience. And all of a sudden, my perspective was so big. And I realized we are not born a blank slate. You know, we carry the DNA of our ancestors. We are influenced by our culture, our families, our teachers, society. And then I also believe we we carry energies from possibly past lives. And that all of that merges into one, individual. And so now, as a parent, we are trying to guide children who come with, let's call it baggage. And some have some lighter baggage and others have navvy baggage. And we think we can fix it, we think we can, we're supposed to fix it, we think we're supposed to pull them up on that mountaintop. And it's like an uphill battle. Because we don't realize that we actually have very little control, we actually have, like, no control, we can control anybody else really not really. And the thing was, I was completely surrendering to whatever was happening. I was completely in the moment, the past was just not important at all, they would just the past was just stories that got me to where I was now. And anything that I've ever maybe felt bad about. It didn't matter, because their stories. And what mattered was now I experienced the pure moment of awareness, which is now which is really all we have, because the past is gone. And when you really think about it, the future hasn't happened, we really only have the present moment. And I live purely in the moment, I didn't worry any more about the future, because there is no use to be worrying about anything. Life just unfolds moment by moment. And I just surrendered. And I had this profound trust, that life just evolves, and unfolds mysteriously. And you don't have to understand at all, that was a big thing. You don't have to understand that though. Because you will never understand all of life, you will never understand this incredible masterpiece that we are part of the end, it was fine, I was fine with it. I just had this deep trust, that somehow life will unfold. And I will always continue to exist as a soul or whatever energy level. So I didn't have a worry in the world. And that lasted almost for a week. And it was just amazing. Oh, my problems are gone. It was it was yeah, the most incredible experience that I ever could have imagined. And to get back to the practice of wanting an answer. And throwing it out there into the universe. That Spiritual Awakening was an answer to my burning question. At the time, I had become very spiritual. And I was already was energized. I felt better about myself. But what happened was, I felt like a spiritual island in my family. I couldn't connect to my family because they were not all that spiritual. And I knew I couldn't just preach to them. Well, it's this is how it is. And because it was my truth, but it doesn't mean that it's the ultimate truth. But who knows, you know, nobody can prove anything. I can't prove God exists. And I can't prove God doesn't exist. You know, it's one of those things that you believe what you believe. And you know, what do you know? But I felt very kind of isolated. And one day I realized, I don't have to put up with that. There's got to be an answer. And so I threw it out in the US into the universe. And I I do this thing where I follow signs, you can read about it in the book. And one day I had this deeper awareness and I'm like, Okay, that's a sign I got to follow this lead. And it was leading me to a book and once I read this paragraph, it took me through this whole process, this mental process of kind of analyzing some things from my past. And also it got me into this awakening. And basically the answer to my question, how do I connect at a deeper levels, more spiritual, conscious level of my family? And it was unconditional love. It was complete acceptance of my family members. They're all flawed. We're all flawed. That that's the Oh only way we can learn and evolve. It's through our shortcomings to our flaws and the Nadeen flaws. They're just imperfections, because that comes with being a human being. And I loved my family unconditionally, I was showered with an unconditional love. And I can see, I was made whole. That was the whole thing was made whole, I felt complete. And I could see that everybody was holed. Also, I could see it in my family members, anybody who I would run into in the supermarket, like it's, it's a weird, I can't even describe it. But I knew and I could see David Hall, complete already at that soul level. But the problem is, we live in our mental world, where there's all this inner conflict and these judgments and these limiting beliefs of how we think we should live life the best way and all that. But it's so flawed in prisons as really, but it's part of the whole human journey. But that Awakening was an answer to this burning question. So you do get answers, you just need to be really eager to get the answer. So then, how did your relationships with your family change? They would have been able to notice the way that you know, Mum was now things are a bit different did that? How did that sort of go? i To be honest, I hardly even really talked about it. During those days, I talked a little bit to my husband about it bit by bit because I it was such a kind of shocking experience that like, well, not even shocking, it was actually something that I recognized like, I remembered the state of being I had just forgotten about and like, how did I forget that this is another way of being but anyway, I couldn't find the words to describe what had happened to me, it took me a long time to figure out how to talk about it, and how to write about it. But basically, what happened was, I approached my kids differently I saw because I saw motherhood through completely new lens. And the lens was our children are born with their own purpose. They have to find their own purpose, and they have their own inner compass. to guide them, I realized I have my own inner compass, it's our intuition. It's listening to that own your inner voice that will guide you to life because your soul knows what you love what you're fascinated with what and that leads you to your purpose, just follow the path of inspiration, and you will find your purpose in purposeful life. And our kids have the same and has nothing to do with us really. It's not the way I defined motherhood being a good mom was like I said, you have to check the boxes to make sure they get a good education and you just invest in your family, you give, give give. But what I had learned was we all are responsible for our own happiness, we have to find our own purpose too. And raising kids is part of our purpose. That often there's more, there's more, and I knew there was more for me. And it's our own inner compass that will guide us there. And I realized our kids have their own inner compass, even though we still have to guide them in life when they're young. They know what they want in this lifetime. It's it often gets covered up that they know what they're passionate about. If the opening is there, if you if you let them and it might not look like high school, college, whatever. Yeah. Every kid has to follow their own path. And what we have to let go of is feeling like if a kid doesn't follow that path, that we were not good parents. It is the biggest BS in the world. Our kids are meant to follow their own path. And it might look completely different than what you had in mind because what you had in mind is likely has to do with what you want for for them because then you can feel good about yourself that you did a good job. Yeah, all we really have to do is our very best and they will find their path in life. But it's important that we as parents also create our own fulfilling life if we don't feel fulfilled, if you feel completely fulfilled with raising your parents, fantastic. But if you feel something is missing, I highly encourage anyone figure out what it is and add it to your life. Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, I love that. So they would all be at the age where they would be aware that, you know, mums written a book mums put a book out mums or you know, published author. Yeah, how do they feel about that? They, it's kind of curious. They, they like it, they kind of accept it, or actually, for a while, because it took me six years to write it. Basically, I had, I had the funny thing is I had already started writing my book before I had this awakening, because I had done so much work, where I love myself to simply pursue what excited me. And I started thinking about, Gosh, I want to write a book, I want to integrate all these wonderful ideas about spirituality and psychology that I get from all these different books, and integrate it into my own book, and then write about my own experiences and insights and whatever. So then after you know, my ego, shut it down many times, like you're not going to write a book, forget about it, who do you think you are, you're going to be a failure, you'll never succeed. You know, one morning, I had a deeper awareness, and I knew you are going to write this book, this is what you're supposed to do. So we started slowly figuring out what I wanted to write about. And then a year later, I had the spiritual awakening. And for a while I thought there is no way I'm going to write about this, forget about it, there is no way I'm going to stick to what I wanted to write about in my book, and forget about it. This is impossible. People will think I'm crazy if I write about this stuff. And lo and behold, of course, I started realizing no, you need to find the courage to, to write about it. So the whole process basically was six years, so much of my youngest kids life is like mom is writing a book mom is writing. They were waiting and waiting. And finally the book is published and this and that. And it's kind of interesting, because we have a lot of families in our neighborhood. And then just the other day, my 13 year old, came home and she said yeah, a friend of mine. She said, Yeah, her mom had to read your book. And she really liked it and like, Oh, that's great. You know, like, it's kind of weird. It's like in our community and and yeah, so yeah, they like they just now think it's normal that Mom Mom wrote a book and doing a podcast and now she's got an audio book coming out and she's getting into life coaching which is really my passion. So yeah, it's interesting definitely. Is it important for you personally, for them to see that you're not just a mum, you're not just you don't just exist exist for them. You're capable your own passions and, you know, achievements. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And what I what I realized during that awakening, and that's what I how I approach my kids now, like, you really have to sense what are you interested in? And listen to that. No. Yeah, we have a responsibility for ourselves and our kids one day when you know, they're adults, too. You do need to find actually take care of yourself. So, you know, if something is a hobby, and you know, it's not gonna make money, it might have to stay a hobby for a while you figure out how to, you know, pay the bills. And then over time, maybe you can see how you can make a living, you know. But it's very important to, to listen to that voice. And also, if you haven't figured it out yet, which is very common for 1618 year olds, like I want to do, you just trust you keep moving forward and trust, you will figure it out, you will keep trusting, just keep moving forward and just relax, you'll be fine. You'll figure it out. It's very important. Yeah, that that kids see that mom is not just mom, especially, I think, with having three daughters. If they ever want to have their own children, I think it's important that they will allow themselves also to not just be mom. And to figure out they're more than just mom. They're whatever they want to be however they want to feel that in. And it doesn't mean it takes away from being the best mom, you want to be. I think it adds I think it makes you even well, it makes you happier mom, you might not spend as much time like I spent time away from my kids, but they're older now. So it is easier, they're very independent. But I don't feel bad about it. Because I know it's good for them to spend time on their own figuring things out on their own. And I still spent plenty of time with them. And unhappier mom for it, and more fulfilled, and therefore also renewing more fulfilled as a parent, you actually give your kids a little more space to figure it out also, on their own. And I think it also shows that, you know, we're all responsible for our unhappiness, nobody can make you happy, you can't make your kids happy. You can make a happy for a day doing something fun. But do happiness, it really does come from within itself, fulfillment and purpose and meaning and only we ourselves can configure that out. Yeah, that is so true, isn't it? When you said before about kids not knowing what they want to do. I feel like over here anyway. The kids like my son, my oldest is 14. And they're already, you know, trying to decide the pathways for their, you know, their education for the job they want to do. And it's like, how can you possibly know at that age, what you want to do for the rest of your life, that is just an unreasonable thing to put on anyone. And I say to my son, you know, I've found my dream job when I was 35. You know, there's never, you're never gonna run out of time, you know, you're gonna go through experience in life, and maybe the thing you think you want to do, you start doing it and go, actually, this is not what I thought change to something else. So that, you know, there's there's no pressure to decide right this second. And that's something I'd love to see sort of change in schooling. I really think we need to have a cultural shift, Big time, big time and education, I see some of the shifts happening already. Because there's so many parents who say, we need to bring back the trades. You know, we're like, for so long, we have been preparing all these kids for higher education. But not all kids want to do higher education, they want to work with their hands, they don't, they don't want to dive into all these, these books and read and they're not all kids are meant to do that. And we have to change as a society really, and and put the same value on on a trades education and a four year college degree. Really, that's what's got to shift. And we also tell our kids that just keep moving forward, make the best decision at that moment. And just know that allow yourself to change your mind if there's a gift you can give yourself is to allow yourself to change course. If you get stuck like well, I want to be let's say I want to be a doctor and from a young age on and then you get older and you realize the reality of it is not really what do you want to do but now you've kind of painted yourself in a corner like I have told everybody for years, I want to be a doctor and then it becomes so hard to acknowledge you want to do something else because now you have to do maybe with family that's like but he was wanting to be a doctor. No, you want to be something else. So we tell our kids always be open minded and allow yourself to change course if you really feel this is not the right direction anymore. You know, and I do think it's just need more time. And they need to have more fun too. And more hands on classes. Yeah, they gotta bring the trades back into the classroom. You know, it's sorry that I'm seeing that shift a bit, but it needs to happen more. That's the thing. Like, you're always going to need someone to fix your roof or, you know, carpentry, you're always going to need people to create with the hands, you know, someone's got the toilet or Yeah, so yeah, that is a great saying some one of the ladies I had on my podcast said, we can't all be astronauts, we have to have a balance in life. Yeah, it's bad knowledge, and I've always found it fascinating. You say you're talking about how it's a different time for the kids. But then the parents like it's really hard to parent children at the moment. Because most of us depending on our age, we didn't have social media, when we were growing up. So it's like, how do you navigate that when you've had absolutely no experience of what it's like to be a teenager? And have that whole new world that you're dealing with? So I think that's something that's, it's really challenging for a lot of parents at the moment. And yeah, I'm so glad I didn't grow up with thank God. It's just a whole, just a whole extra thing you'd have to be worried about all the time. Like life was so simple. When I think back to my childhood and my teenage years. Absolutely, yeah, I think it's, it's a very challenging time for parents to be raising kids. Life, just even just just for adults, life has become so full and fast, are nervous, as soon as actually not wired to process so much information from the 24 hour news cycle, to social media, to all the emails. I always think our parents didn't get all those emails from the schools, you know, from teachers, from the principal, from, you know, the PTA and the fundraisers, and everything that comes our way, we have to process and it is so much more intense. And that's just for the parent. And now we have to manage our children and social media, and doing homework on their computers that we can't watch every second that they're on a computer, like how do we guide I will keep them safe. It's stressful. It's a lot. And we're the first generation of parents that has to figure this out. Our kids were guinea pigs. Yeah, really? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, and it's still developing exponentially. All the apps and all the ways that they can figure out how to get online and we won't even know about it. Yeah. And so it's, yeah, some, I don't know, ever thought that social media was a good idea for for middle schoolers. I don't know, but that it's not. Talking about your coaching that you do now, do you want to just share a little bit about that with this, if you know anyone's listening that thinks that this is something that they'd you know, benefit from? Can you share a little bit about what you do? Yeah, absolutely. Yes, thanks. There's just so many moms who kind of feel stuck and it often has to do with that guilt again, they they feel guilty for not being happy because their lives are good this and that. They feel guilty if they even think about taking some time to themselves, or or pursuing something. And what I do is making people aware of all their beliefs that are tied to what it means to be a mom and kind of waking up to how they're thinking and sometimes it has to do with the culture they grew up in. Like, I remember one mom who I think Her background was Vietnamese. And she said, In my culture, the family comes first always you always give to the family, the family is the center, you give, give, give. So it, it just was conflicting with her wanting to have time to herself to pursue something. She didn't even know what it was. But she said, like, I gotta make a change, because I just, I'm just so stressed and whatever, I'm just not not happy. And I know there's she had a few ideas of what she wanted to do, but she just struggled with the guilt. And once we started talking about a different perspective, like, well, how are you now when your kids need you? When your husband needs you? Are you just happy to, you know, be there for them? Or are you like, oh, my gosh, what do they need? Now? What is it now? You know, it's like, the last I'm always like, Oh, my gosh, I never have time to myself. So I told her, Well, what if we reframe it, and you set aside some time for yourself, and then be inspired and enjoy, really be in it and enjoy what you do, guess what's gonna happen. Then when you're present with your family, you're much more present. And then you don't feel so drained. Because you know, every week, you've got this time for yourself. And it's coming every week, and you do what you love. And you keep pursuing different things that maybe it'll shift over time. And then you can just be there for your family even more and more present and more positive. And once you started seeing that, she's like, Oh, no, I get it. Okay. Okay, that's compatible, okay. I can still, like, honor my culture, and honor what I need, you know, so it's always about finding the right perspective. That is healing, because we're often just not seeing it. Right. You know, because we have ideas and beliefs and limits, limiting thoughts. It's about uncovering those. And I, yeah, that's definitely passionate mind to help moms find the right perspective, and then help them pursue what they want to pursue. Yeah, that's wonderful. Good for you. That is just Yeah, it's really wonderful that you can pass that gift on for the, you know, that amazing experience that you've had, and then you can, you know, help so many other moms and, and then that helps, you know, it goes down the line. Like you said, before, we're all connected. Yeah, no, it's further, because I had to change my perspective. I felt guilty taking time. So I know what these moms are going through. So I know, and I know how hard it is to change your perspective. And to break these patterns. I know how hard it is. But I also know the rewards are incredible, not just for yourself, but for your whole family, your whole family will benefit once you become happier. everybody around you is going to feel it. And also another thing when mom is happy, kids feel it. And now, they don't have to feel any responsibility to like, make mom happy. Some kids are sensitive that way. Yeah, they feel kind of responsible. And they don't have to worry about mom anymore, too. I've heard about that, too. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point. It's always it's all good. You know, life might shift. Things might change. But it's always the fear of the change that holds us in place, but gradually integrate the changes. It can be so powerful. Absolutely. It's just it's finding that balance, isn't it? Like your your example of your client? You know, she's honoring what's important to her culturally, but then she's also honoring herself, which is so important. Yeah. Yeah. And getting that balance, right. And that'll be different for every single person. Exactly. That's the whole journey. But I do believe there's always a way in which we can gently integrate some changes. You don't have to make massive changes right away. You know, for some people, that's why they do or they quit their job and this and that, but most people can't do that. So I've done the way I've made it changes was gently integrating all the little changes over time and then, you know, you look back and it's it's a big shift, ultimately. Yeah, that's it. All these little, little tiny things add up to this massive, massive effect over time. Yeah. And then that makes it less daunting. Like you talk fear. Fear certainly holds us back, you know that. Oh, no, what if this doesn't happen or if this doesn't work, or you know, the what ifs that like you were talking before about, you know, we jump forward, we think about the future. But, you know, the only time we really have is, is the present. And there's, there's really no point in jumping forward. And we really only have now and, and what I also realized is, even though we want to make changes on the outside, like, we want to do something, do a hobby or start something, whatever it is, the shift always has to happen mentally, we have to shift our thinking. And sometimes it's a tiny little shift with our thinking. And you know, but then it starts to show on the outside and just a tiny little mental shift is huge, energetically you feel it, and then the world around, you starts to respond differently. It's a fascinating process, I've experienced it, all of a sudden, you need different people, you find yourself in different situations that actually support what you want to do. And it just opens everything up with just tiny little changes that you're making, basically, mentally, it's the mental shifts that you create, and then it starts showing up in your outfit and out for you know, in your world. Absolutely, yeah. Thank you so much for coming on today. Danielle, it's been so lovely to talk to you this. Wonderful, thank you so much for having me. I love chatting with you. Yeah, absolutely. I'll put the links for people to get in touch with you in the show notes. But do you have a website or somewhere you'd like to direct people to head to if they'd like to know more? Yes, the easiest one is inner compass. living.com. So inner compass living.com. And they can also reach me at inner compass. living@gmail.com . And if people want to know when my audiobook is coming out, it should be late April, early May. They can sign up for my newsletter that's on the website, and then they'll get my newsletters and a blog and whatever, they'll they'll be in the loop on the latest. So inner compass living.com Fantastic. Oh, wonderful. Look, good luck with it all. And I'm Yeah, excited to, to check out the audio book to because I mean, obviously I've read it on the page. But I think when you hear the person that wrote it, reading, it just adds a completely different dimension to it, you know? So yeah, I'll be excited to check that out, too. Yeah,

Scott Maxwell Father's Day Ep - SA musician + educator S2 Ep61 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts Welcome to the first of 2 special episodes released to coincide with Father's Day here in Australia. Scott Maxwell is a musician and educator from Mount Gambier South Australia and a dad of 4 boys, including a set of twins. Scott's dad was a guitarist in a band, as an 8 year old he was listening to Tears for Fears and Duran Duran, the Shadows, surf pop and his dad taught him lead guitar. In his early high school years Scott created a band with his mates and his interest in music kept developing throughout high school. He wanted to get in the education system because he could see that it was broken and did not cater for all learners and wanted to be a force for change. He made a career of teaching music and did so for years. Scott was the winner of an ARIA Award in 2018 - , The Telstra Music Teacher Award . Scott left his class room teaching position in 2020 to begin a new adventure in sound, working as a mentor in a not=for=profit organisation that teaches transformative learning through creativity, enabling teachers to deliver music to their students. In addition to his day job Scott's experimentation in sound has evolved to him running fortnightly sound baths in Mount Gambier called "Frequency Fridays" with all the incredible instruments he has collected. Connect with Scott instagram youtube Podcast - instagram / website Music you'll hear today is from Scott and is used with permission. If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the first of two special episodes released to coincide with Father's Day here in Australia. Scott Maxwell is a musician and educator from Mount Gambier, South Australia and the dad of four boys, including a set of twins, Scott's dad was a guitarist in a band. As an eight year old Scott was listening to Tears for Fears and Duran Duran and the shadows. His dad taught him some lead guitar, he loved surf pop music, and in early high school, Scott created a band with his mates. His interest in music just kept developing throughout high school. Scott wanted to get into the education system because he could see that it was broken and did not cater for all learners, and he wanted to be a force for change. He made a career of teaching and did so for many years, and Scott was the winner of an aria award in 2018, winning the Telstra music teacher award. Scott left his classroom teaching position in 2020 to begin a new adventure in sound. He works as a mentor in a not for profit organization that teaches transformative learning through creativity, enabling teachers to deliver music to their students. In addition to his day job, Scott's experimentation in sound has evolved to him running fortnightly sound baths in Mount Gambia, called frequency Friday is explored meditation, new instruments, including crystal bowls, and gongs. And this has triggered a new Sonic obsession for him. Today, we chat about the place that music and sound holds in our culture and society. A little bit about partner guilt and the way that Scott wanted to make a difference in the educational system. The music that you hear throughout this episode is from Scott on all the amazing instruments that he has collected in recent years. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you so much for coming in. Scott. It's a real pleasure to welcome me and good to get the other side's perspective on the special fallacy episode. Yeah, thanks for having me. Awesome. This is a very unique opportunity. Indeed, it's actually unique that you're in my studio, because I kept many people in my studio. I spend most of my most of my my time in studios. There's nothing like being in a creative space with the Lego guy. Like I was creative. I tried to keep some of it at least nice. But it just That's not me at all. I have to have stuff around me. Like, just sort of, if there was a creative office that was clean, I'd be worried. Yeah, you know, yeah, the fact that this isn't clean, it's just staffing, stuff everywhere. Yeah. And yet most studios are saying this stuff everywhere. So yeah, that's how, you know. I mean, if you could, you know, open a door to inside my brain. That's how my brain looks as well as the stuff everywhere. I think that's most creative people have an idea there. And then there's something else there. And and I need to get to do that. And yeah, yeah. I know. That's right. And then you get so hyper focused on something that you just like, oh, well, what was I thinking? Oh, I don't even know. And then, you know, yeah, it's like, everything else just doesn't exist. And you just, yeah, I've done that many times in here. I've been editing or doing something and then I've sort of lifted my head up and gone. Ah, what are we having fatigue? You know, you just get so fixated on something. Yeah, you do. You do? What are the children doing? Yeah, it's like, I've got 15 minutes before I need to do something. I just gotta go out to my studio just to look at something. And you know, and then you look at the time and you're like, Oh, my God, where did the time go? You know, I'm five minutes late now. Yeah. It was very important is very important. Yeah. Yeah. So tell our listeners, obviously I know what you do. But I'm seeking to tell me more about what you do button, your studio. What do you do in your studio? So my studio is like it's like a rehearsal space. For me a practice space, it's a administration place for my day job. It's it's just a it's an it's like the center of my existence. Really? Yeah, I love it. I love it. I love it so much. And it wasn't until I was a parent, did I feel that I needed one? Because I needed a space that that was separate from the world that I was, I was living, I guess, you know, so that I could just be there with be present with, you know, my brain and the creative force. And yeah, so otherwise, it would have just been, you know, up until that stage was just my bedroom. So, you know, because that was a space where there was no one else anyway. So. Yeah, so I think that's, that's probably, that's, that's my studio. Yeah, it's a, it's, it's a spot where it's a spot where I Yeah, where I escaped the world, and I'd be present with myself and, and whatever, whatever I feel, needs to needs to come out. So it's quite a it's quite an unstructured zone. Unless that unless things are unless there's a time when I've got a deadline coming up, then it can be quite a focus structured area, but a lot of the time, it's me researching, it's me experimenting. It's me, yeah. Finding coming down, you know, rabbit holes, and because I'm, like, I'm a, I love sound. So anything to do with sound is really excites me. And, you know, I think as a culture that we could have, we could have easily not built our culture around money and capitalism, but instead built it around sound. Ah, what a cotton said, I know. Like, honestly, this this thing of capitalism. I have been on this for the last probably half a dozen episodes with people all of a sudden it just came to the forefront. And we've been talking about how not just creating mothers but anyone who creates that doesn't receive a monetary renumeration from that, why are they less important to society as people who earn money from their creativity? Like it's just been this massive topic? And we might come into that after? Yeah, I mean, that is something that I've been worried about. Yeah, it's, well, it's, you know, like sound has been at the center of what we do. And there's a school of thought that believes that sound and music was how civilization civilizations formed. Because there was that need for a group mentality there was a need for ritual and there was a need for people to be joining in with whatever whatever it was, but sound was what brought them together. And you think about that pre language stuff as well as sound communication. So you know, anything about humans on the earth have been here for you know, for we don't even know how long but it's only in this last sort of snippet of humanity where, you know, we're pushing the cache and returning the world into a giant shopping mall. Yeah. Yep. I feel like we can talk more about the company. You said your day job do you? Are you still involved in teaching? Are we doing something? Yeah, I am. I'm, I work for an organization called Sovereign or non for profit organization come in Victoria. And I'm involved in a program called transformative learning through creativity. And my job is to mentor primary school teachers in To feel uncomfortable about teaching music in their day to day classrooms, so incorporating music into the into their work, and helping them plan for lessons and deliver and play games and all that sort of stuff with the that music focus. So that's what I get to do I work at five schools in the area. And I go out and work with these work with these amazing teachers, with their wonderful kids. And yes, it's a blast. It's, it's it. Yeah, it's a really, really cool. It's a great job. And it's one where I have a lot of, I have a lot of creative scope as well. No one really tells me what it is that I need to do. So everyone sort of trusts my my own intuition. Yeah, it's that goal to achieve. But it's up to you. How are you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And there are challenges that come with the job. But you know, the, that's the challenges that come with any job, but it's usually teach teachers that move, and that sort of thing. So the teachings are very transient sort of occupation for a lot of people, some people stay in the same spot for X amount of years. But a lot of people do move over a lot of contracts going around and that sort of stuff. So yeah, that's what I get to do during the day. And, yeah, yeah, it's a pretty cool gig. So is that like, so the teachers that are sort of teaching the students they don't, it's not sort of like a formal education in music, they don't have to have like training in musical theater. It's about just as the incorporating it in sort of, I mean, I used to work in childcare. So yeah, we put music in, I'm just comparing it to that, like, yeah, anytime someone was doing something, and a child paid attention to one particular thing, or whatever you did, I know, there'd be a song that went with that, you know, like, I had a friend that used to do this, every time you'd say something, she could break out into a song lyric, it's like, you just, you just go off, you're picking up something, or let's sing the song about picking up, you know, that sort of that sort of way. It's like making it part of just everyday life sort of thing. Maybe not to that extreme, but it's probably not to that extreme, but there's no reason why it couldn't be is to sell. You know, that's because that childcare settings, is that a little bit younger? There's just, I mean, I don't have I actually don't have all those songs in those skills, but we have songs for making circles. And, you know, we do do lots of songs in class, in class time, and that sort of thing, but not necessarily those. You know, like the alphabet song, you know, only because, probably, me, you know, I could get skilled up in that area myself. You know, we used to call it the Play School. So yeah, actually, if someone was building it, start saying, build him up build anything a child? Yeah, there's a song that goes with it. And what I found really interesting was that some educators were just so natural at it, like you could tell they just grew up like that, or were really comfortable with it. Other people would get that certain level of judgment about I can't sing properly, so I won't do it or, you know, that confidence, and they feel like they're being judged by other people, not by the children, because they love it. They know, it's right. What are you saying? No, that's a very interesting sort of reflection on people's, you know, yeah. Well, you know, I tend to think the way I look at it is that you know, and you're right, that the majority of people that I teach, so no, it's best, they don't have any formal music education. Because if you did, then you should be able to teach music, you know, but, so these are people that weren't pretty much not teaching music in in their classrooms, maybe doing a few songs or doing assembly pieces or lattes sort of thing, but not really understanding. You know, I mean, most teachers don't even they can read the music curriculum. They wouldn't have ever had a clue of what some of these things are, like, the the elements of music, you know, they might not know what tambor or texture or you know, even pitch, most of them know what rhythm rhythm are. But that's pretty. That's pretty important. But coming to what you're saying. I think that's a really interesting point. Because, you know, I think you think about the education system and you think, Well, you know, it wasn't the education system that created that well. So that was it that a lot of the time when we as adults think about the education system, you know, we sort of there's a lot of trauma involved in schooling. For for all of us, as adults, we can trace that back to when we were kids. And, you know, sometimes schools are better at telling us what we feel like we're not good at and what we are good at, say, I mean, that I think the education system as a whole has a lot to answer for that. Like, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty nuts. Yeah. And certainly in Scotts perfect world, we wouldn't be doing it the way we're doing it. So that was a nice to be that little. And that's why I got into education anyways, because I knew it was broken. And I'd like to be a crack in the system. And I feel like, you know, this job gives me the opportunity to be a little bit of a crack in the system, because, you know, the kids really look forward to me coming in, even if I'm not taking a lesson to teach might be taking them because they know, this fun stuffs gonna happen, you know, they know that they're gonna have a license to be creative. They know that there's no, no, they don't have to be frightened that they're gonna get something wrong. The only time that happens is if you're playing a game, and they might get out. But that's all it is. Yeah. And they're probably not even aware that they're learning so much through the process through what you're, you know, giving Yeah, I'm thinking that it's that they've been taught to know, well, that's what learning learning should be like. Yeah. And, you know, and being a musician, it's challenging. You know, it's challenging, you've got to, you know, and you know, this yourself, there's this, there's this part, this is Part in music, where you have to grind. And if you don't grind, you don't, you don't get any better. And it's that rote repetition, which, unfortunately, the, you know, there's a lot of schools of thought that don't even, you know, right is like a dirty word universities was when I went to uni, that's for sure. However, that's the way I learned. And prep, perfect practice makes. I was interesting. I'm a great speller. So yeah, I think, I also think that one of one of our problems with people being hard on themselves, it's a cultural thing. So you know, I lived up in the ipy lands, for for a couple of years. And culturally there, you sort of, you stand out if you if you don't sing, because songs or songs are part of their daily life. That's, you know, the stories are all told through song. Like, it has been fun, you know, 10s of 1000s of years. So it's ingrained in their culture. Whereas we have, you know, flip it over to, to us, our urban culture. And, and, you know, the game shows the X factors, the voice and all that sort of thing, then all of a sudden, you know, is everyone that sings being judged, you know, by, you know, by Guy Sebastian? Yeah. That's, I think that's part of where we've got to. Also. Yeah, also, I know, through experience that, you know, kids, like kids like to sing, but sometimes, they may annoy their parents. And it might be just natural for the parents to tell them, hey, you know, you sound like a dying dog or something like that, you know, and that might sound like a dying dog, too. But that can really pay detrimental to that, the psyche of that. So, a lot of the times, you know, I like to tell parents that if your kids, if your kid is learning music, and it sounds horrible, then that's probably good, because they're actually probably trying something that they've never done before. And the only way you can do it, you know, if their practice if they're a piano player, and they're practicing a piece and it sounds beautiful, then then not nothing's happening. They're rehearsing they're not practicing. Yeah, that's some of my best singers. You know, I've spoken to their parents and their parents will say that they make really silly noises a lot. And that's that's experimentation of, of the voice or whatever it is. You can do your voices. That's part of what my studio is still. I'm still experimenting, you know? 50 years old, and I haven't stopped since I was like, 11 years old. I haven't stopped at all. Maybe Maybe there will still be Hi yeah, that's a that's a good question. You know, when I look back, I think, you know, definitely had something to do with my father and seeing a picture of him in his early 20s playing guitar in a band, I still remember the photo. And you know, I listened to music, but there was no, there was no depth. I did like the I did like the hooky, sort of minor stuff, you know, I knew that I liked it, because it had an emotion, like an emotional draw for me, and I knew anything and then these, these these minor keys, and this was the, you know, going to the early 80s. Here, you know, as sort of about eight, you know, 19 ADLs, I would have been eight years old. So, heading towards probably 10. Nine and 10 had some, some pretty big songs out there. I can't even think I mean, I know I used to love. Everybody Wants to Rule the world, but it is, it is. I mean, I remember that when that came out. And that was that was one of those jarring things. My first album was Duran Duran. It was an EP The wild boys EP, I'm not sure if that was my first that was my first album. And my first cassette was seven in the record, Tiger. So Duran Duran, there you go. They had some big minor hooks. And I was right into that. But yeah, my dad taught me a couple of things on the guitar and taught me some shadows. So Apache, and the benches walked around, so bit of surf, sort of style instrumental stuff. So it was the lead guitar. And I just took it from there, I just just didn't stop at a couple of mates, we got together at that transition stage from year seven to year eight, was high school for us. And we played we had this little band going on, and yeah, and then just did not stop from there. So we played those songs and then just kept developing throughout high school. And, yeah, that's how, that's how it started. You know, I can't, I can't pinpoint a particular there been moments that have completely blown my mind. But, you know, it was big becoming invested in music. And by invested in music, I mean, that, you know, when we talk about the first album, or your first cassette, like that, no longer exists. Yeah. So and that was an investment because you needed money to start off with, and however, you got your money back in the day, whether it was pocket money, or, you know, pleading to your folks or whatever it was, you had to there was something you had to do. And then you had to physically, you know, I had to walk down to Kmart, which is a couple of days down the road, go go to the local record store, look through all the staff and say, this is the one that I'm going to buy, take home, and listen to. And that investment in music was was, you know, that's what you get. You're accountable to the music, then you sit there and you look at the artwork, and yeah, play the final say, yeah, that was that was how musics sort of I got involved in music. And yeah, just on that, do you think it diminishes the importance or the value we put on music because it's so accessible now? Yeah, yeah, I do. I definitely do. So there's, there's there's positives and negatives. And, you know, it's such an exciting time for independent artists to be able to release stuff and have it so accessible and available. The I mean, the music industry's it's cutthroat you know, it's intense. And you've got artists now being able to bypass the industry. Yeah, so that's, that's amazing. So for the artists, it's, it's probably pretty cool but on a cultural level, having having that access unprecedented access to music is? Well, it's going to it's going to affect the monetization of artists. Tell me, I know. Exactly. Ah, but yeah, yeah, you've got that. If it's, you know, it's just like saying, hey, if if our roads were made of of diamonds, how precious would they be on your fingers? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's, yeah, it's it's a it's an issue. It's an issue. Yeah, I can say like, I, as an independent musician, myself, like being able to release music is amazing. But then at the same time, you think, because there's so much there? It's just, you know, will it ever get listened to it? Or will anyone's ever get listened to unless you are within, you know, a big company that can provide stuff like there's just so much stuff out there? And I didn't realize. So, when I, when I did the ARIA stuff. Yes. Yeah. It was such an insight into industry that I'd never had before. And so you know, I remember I remember having a chat to this to this bloke outside outside the toilet at the areas. And he was asking me all about this staffing. I, this is at a this is sorry, at the areas I actually got presented the area at a what was the, what was it called? It was an industry meeting. So it was all the big it was all the CEOs of sonar, Warner, Music, Spotify, all that it was this, you know, huge thing Bob Geldof was there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, chatter was amazing. I said, thank you for all you've done for music. You know, he picked up the award he's going he's a very weighty you're, he's like, you get back to school, tell them all the award should be this heavy. Yeah. But anyway, I was chatting to this guy. And he was saying how, you know, he wished that he continued learning whatever instrument and now that sort of dawned on me that these people aren't musicians, you know, they're business people, and are speaking to another guy, we're sort of moving from one place to the other. And he was talking to me, and he said, Well, you know, congratulations, and all that we're hoping for our first aria for I forget which one it was, was like the big one, like, Song of the Year or something like that. And I'm like, ik you know, who, whose team you're part of, and this is a there was about nine business guys in suits. And so that was Amy sharks team. So who knows? And she actually ended up winning that, so they got it. But I don't even know what they do. What are these guys in suits, they are just like, well, this is that's how I know that this is. This is massive industry. Yeah. And there's something that happens there. I don't know. It's secret. Squirrel. Yeah. Doors, things going on. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that's, that's the type of thing that I'd be bad at this. See, that's the thing that I sort of think, on one hand, having, having all the music in the world possible on a platform and letting people decide what they want to listen to, is good, because it sort of cuts that control that the commercial radio stations have because the people make deals with the execs are you give us that much. And we'll play the song four times a day, you know, takes out that like, that's why I love community radio so much because the only stipulation they have is they've got to play. I think it's only 20 something percent Australian music apart from that they can do whatever they like, you know, there's not that nice deal sort of being made. So I've just taken the conversation. I love community radio. Yeah, I think that's it's literally what it is. It's, you know, everyday ordinary people sharing their love and their community and yeah, the people think it's awesome. Yeah, no, you're right. And, you know, and today we have access to community radio from Hundreds and 1000s of community writers Yes, we would be would be ensnared. Yeah. So such an interesting, interesting concept. But yeah, so music is freely available as as we want it. But yeah, the power the Pat, the the actual power of music gets lost within within its within its easy access. You know? So getting back to your area, can you share with us that story and how you got involved and what the award was, and that kind of stuff for people who might not be aware? Yeah, so the story goes, the, there was a couple of teachers at my school who wanted to put me up for a nomination. And so they asked the kids to write some type of thing for for me, and it was voluntary, you know, kids could do it if they thought that I deserved that, blah, blah, blah. So I ended up getting nominated for this for an aria Award, which, which was really, really amazing. Yeah, it was like, awesome. And then it was up to a community vote. So the community had to get behind it. And, you know, I thought, you know, how I was, like, how I had to develop the campaign, which really helped me in my you know, because you're obviously, you know, there's five teachers, everyone's, everyone's an amazing teacher, everyone deserves the ARIA, you know, it's a, it wasn't about that it was just, for me, it was a childhood dream. You know, ever since ever since I started playing in bands and knew about what the area was. I thought, wow, you know, I'd love to win that. And there's funny stories that actually go go there now. Because so, I'm rewind, and I'm a good musician, um, you know, possibly 23 years old playing in bands. And I see some people that I was sort of involved in scene nosing. Getting this aria award? Yeah. Because their band was the super Jesus. Oh, yeah. And I remember watching it that day, and thinking, Oh, wow, maybe have made some real decisions in my musical path. Because I was playing. I was playing surf punk at the time, but I come from, you know, thrash metal. Really high energy. Yeah. angry music. Yeah. Which was, which was, which was cool. And I loved and that's why I did it. And that was the moment where I thought, Oh, maybe I should look at something else. And that was a moment where I signed up to do the stat test for uni. Yeah. And that's how I got to university. And that's how I became a teacher. So, you know, fast forward 2020 years, 25 years, or whatever it was, and there it was in front of me, like a carrot on the stick. And I'm like, Oh, yes, this is a childhood dream. I'm gonna go for it. So what I did is I recorded, I've written this song on guitar, and it was a real flashy guitar thing. And because I thought, I thought to myself, I thought, how could I? How can I get people up? I am one of those people, you know, like, I don't like asking for money, like from people, you know, or your vote. Vote for me vote for me. Yeah. So I thought, how can I do this, which isn't, you know, so I thought, well, what can I give, you know, how can I give something? And so I had this guitar thing that was really, really intense. And so I was able to just chop it up into little snippets. And as I build a Facebook page called riff of the day, yeah. And every day, I post a little bit of a riff, and with a vote for me, don't forget to vote. Yeah. And that's, that's basically, it was pretty popular. There was and that's how, that's how it works. So, you know, and that's, you know, that's how, obviously, the people, the people of this community really got behind me, and that's how I won the Aria. So, you know, it was it was a vote of confidence from the community, which was very, very humbling. Yeah, extremely humbling. So and going to the IRS was just you know a dream come true. Now I've done it now walk that red car. I've done. You know, I can cross that off my bucket list. Do you want to drop some names? Who else do you talk to? There was George Shepherd from shepherd he was he was my buddy. But who was sitting next to somebody really fast? I don't either. We're not listening. We really offended Oh, they weren't getting an hour. But yeah, I don't I don't I just I didn't speak to that many people. Like I was a little bit I say humbled by by everything. Who else did I speak to? I don't know. Yeah. Cuz it was like, everyone wanted to speak to me. Like that key rule rule is like, this was an up and coming out of spec thing. It's like 15 years into care come up to me and shake my hand and rule. I think it's a rule came out. So he shook my hand. And it was like, you know, munching on some Cheetos as you do when you're 15. Right. And he's just won an hour here as well. And, you know, there was like, you know, Troy QSI. Daily, you know, chatting to him at the end of the night, but we weren't chatting. We're chatting about school drop offs. Funny, Murray wiggle. He's gold. So yeah. And all the like, it was easy to be involved in meeting all the wiggles who were all there. So but Mary's Marisa, you know, he's a great musician. Yeah. He, he looks after these lads called the DZ death rays. I think they are. Yeah. And same sort of thing. Right. Yeah. So it was it was a it was just an amazing experience. I was. I was in the I was in the elevator. Oh, I got to sign I got to sign these posters. And, you know, my name was on with all the other ARIA award winners. It was so weird signing, you know, they took me to this vector, which is little room up, stay stays in there. Like, you get a photo. And then, which is the official RFID. And then you sign this and they follow you around with, like beers and stuff like that. Other beer said another beer. Yeah, that's what the arrows are. Like, there's like, every, every five rows, there's an esky. Oh, wow. And it's got like water and beer and champagne, whatever it is in there. And they fill it up. Just like, Whoa, yeah, there you go. This is an insight inside that. I could only because I was gonna say, like, people, I think I remember seeing the footage of you getting like the mayor with your award. And so people were so appreciative because you're literally, you know, bringing the future of musicians to life, you know, you're giving them the passion. And, you know, there's the actual skills, but you know, that love of music, and that appreciation for it is, you know, what's going to, you know, bring on the next generation of performance. So, yeah, you know, I think that's, that's important. Like, and it's, it's, it's the, for me, it's the musical experience, you know, it's the experience that you have with music. So, you know, so anyone listening out there now, you know, if you want to feel that power of the experience of music, you know, think back to think back to when you were 16. And there's some songs you're listening to, like you can you can latch on to memories, that, you know, that have been a part of the soundtrack to your life. That's how important music is. You know, there's not too many people will say, Oh, well, I wasn't really listening to music when I was whatever you know, about that. 1617 is when we start to really sort of capturing but you know, music has been, you know, think about how you felt after the last concert. You've you went to a big concert. Last because how did you feel that? That feeling stays with you for days and days, and then forever? Yeah. As you'll always remember those because there's this shared experience and that's part of the power of music is that it gives us the the the the opportunity to have amazing shared experiences. It's this real energy exchange. So and I tell students well, I used to tell the older students this, but this happens when I teach music anyway, but you I'm on stage. And you know, the energy that you give to the audience comes straight back at you, you know, and it doesn't necessarily matter how many people are in that audience. But you know, you get that energy times, whatever times whatever is close to you, you know, I don't know what it's like to pay. And like a big stadium or anything like that I think the most people ever paid to was about 4000. That's pretty rad. But it wasn't, yeah, the energy exchange was a little bit disjointed, because it was a big stage was lifted up. And it's not quite like, you know, I remember playing and I remember playing at the Tivoli in the Thrash band, and there were literally people running off the bar and jumping into the crowd. And now, we're sort of, I had to play with my back turn to the audience, so I could just push them out a little bit. So give me Oh, I was so cool. Yeah. So and that's, you know, you're in the midst of that energy. Just Just amazing. That's the power of music, you know, you know, music gives us an opportunity to express that energy. And music is energy in itself with sound energy, you know, we just can't see it. But it's, oh, it's there. You're listening to the art of being a mom, my mom, I was. Interesting story, fast forward, just passed the area. And I'm starting to think, oh, what next? You know, I've achieved this massive goal, where am I going? I don't want to go backwards. I don't want to turn into Oh, that was that guy that that was that teacher who won that area. And now, you know, now he's just like a cobweb in the corner. So really made me start to think. And then there was all this all this friction in my workplace as well. And then and say, all that all that stuff. There was a lot of stuff going on. And, and it boils down to that I felt like, you know, the arts were being attacked for being too popular. You know, yeah, it was, it was lit, it was literally, literally, kids aren't handing up their English assignments on time, because they're too involved in your musicals. And it's just like, what, and that's when it that's, and so that started to weigh real heavily on my shoulders. And, and I just went down, down with stemmer, you know, into it into, like, you know, into a really sort of horrible mental position where I wasn't sure what, where I was going, what I was doing, how I was going to combat this. And through that, I ended up I ended up looking into altered states of consciousness and, and meditation, that sort of stuff. And then I came across all these meditation instruments, I didn't even know they existed. So I came across a crystal ball. So I work a lot with digital. In the past, I've worked a lot with digital sound. And there's a thing called a VST, which is literally a virtual instrument. And so I ended up I was looking at this virtual instrument, they had all these meditation instruments. And I'm like, Well, I've never heard of these things before. And then I found this crystal ball, and it's literally a frosted crystal ball, and bigger than your normal salad bowl, and shaped a little bit differently, but it has a tone, pure tone. And I thought, Okay, what's this and I, I listened to one and it just it's one. It's like a sine. It's like a natural sine wave. And I was listening to her and it just, it was still it did not move. It was it's oscillates with itself. Yeah. That that beautiful. And I was like, oh my goodness, what, what is it and I felt I felt amazing. It was like, I'd spent my entire musical career trying to be as fast as I possibly could then never, never stopped to savor what it could be like to be still with a musical note. And it just drew me in and from that moment, Ain't unlike us hooked Yeah, absolutely hooked and two crystal balls together creating whatever how many you want in a room is yeah, it's just outstanding, you know, for me, for me and everyone, everyone would react different because everyone you know musics unique experience and listening to sound as well as a unique experience. So, you know, the person next to you would experience that sound differently. Some people those crystal balls are really activating this seat in the middle of the head, you know? And some people find them you know, they might need to move or whatever. Yeah. So that's what that's what started this journey and then it was you know, gongs, gongs are the opposite gongs are like, like opening a doorway to, you know, a million cosmic frequencies at once. Yeah, it's just like, there's they're everywhere. And, you know, the idea about I found the idea of a sound bath. And I like, I just love the term. It is sound, isn't it? It's like you luxuriating in. I mean, I've always loved I've always loved baths, myself, and sitting back and contemplating life and so forth. But to think that you could do it in sound, I'm like going, is this I'm really excited about it. And I did an online course. And, you know, which was okay, but sort of showed me the ins and outs of of what it's all about, I guess, like the practicalities, the practicalities of it, and your uses for it, and so forth. And then yeah, I just went down that rabbit hole. And I've now managed to bring my guitar into that space. And now I'm starting to, you know, do the sound baths and it's so cool. It's so cool. Like it is. It's, it's like unbridled creativity, you know, you really just you, you have to have a plan. Like, you know, like, like my life. You know, the plan is just there. It's not like, it's not like, I'm gonna, something bad's gonna happen if I don't follow up. But the plan is there that that's the, that's the plan is planned. But be. Yeah, it's so, but yeah, once you once you're in that zone, it's, it's so cool. And you know, it's such an individual experience, it can take, you know, you can take one person on this fantastic imaginative journey through time and space. And for others, it can, you know, it can give them the space to release emotions or whatever they, they need to. So, there's certainly been a lot of that at at the sound bars as well. And like I say, to people, you know, I'm going to fill this room with sound frequency, you know, the sound frequency itself is pretty neutral. You know, it's, they're just their frequencies there sound frequencies, there's research on how they affect the body. But if you want to, you can release negative thoughts outwards, into those frequencies. Or, you can allow those frequency if you are really enjoying them, and then they're, you know, they're turning you on or whatever, you can just let that evening and, and, you know, really switch on, which is, you know, it's just, it's just amazing. And you know, we've, the thing is with, that's the way that I listen to music as well, you know, that's, you know, if there's something that I let in, I'll let it in, but if the sub A lot of the time, it's letting out. Yeah, particularly. Yeah, you know, when I particularly like, you know, young kid listening to thrash music, you know, pretty, pretty upset with the state of the world. And the inequalities of the world and getting out all that angst with, with heart hard, fast, heavy music was the same type of thing. Just now, now, everything's a little bit different. And yeah, it sounds pretty cool. But, you know, along the way, I've learned so much about sound. And, you know, sound is one of those. It's one of those things, it's like, yeah, it's like gravity. It's always there. You know, very rarely do you sit in silence. And if when you are in silence, I swear you can hear something anyway, this this just the sound that's always there. Yeah, listen, that's just my brain tinnitus. But you know what I mean? Like, it's just the sound was very rarely get solid solids yet like proper silence. Yeah. And yeah, sound is Saturday, we said the weird thing about sound this is. So sound needs the human ear to be to perceive it. It's like if a tree falls in the forest. Now, is it too soon to make a sound? You know? Yeah, like I said no, because I produced it produced sound waves. And but if there's nothing to receive the sound waves, then it doesn't make a sound. So it's gonna be relative isn't it is it is really interesting. I love that one. It's like, that's, yeah, it's pretty cool every thing that I've done it always everything always comes back to music, you know? And, yeah, yeah. It's a wonderful way to live your life isn't to have that sort of piano reflect on it like that? Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Yeah, it is. It is. And, you know, it's funny, because you always ask myself, what is it about music? You know, what do what do i What is it that I want to get out? But you know, and you know, the answer I always, always came up with even at since I was a kid is that I want people to feel the way I feel when I'm listening to music. I want as many people to feel that because such a good feeling. And, you know, and it just reminds me of that. That, you know, it's like, you're holding up, like, a mirror to the universe. So that it may know itself better. But so that's that, you know, that's, that's that style of thinking? That I think that for me, you know, music. That's That's what music is? It's pretty profound isn't it is. And you sort of think something was simplified at all, but something so simple? Like I said, it's with us all the time, every day. That it's so he has so much meaning. Yeah, well, music is simple. Like, you know, and this is the thing, this is what my my job is to try and tell teachers that think that they don't know anything about music, it's like, well, you know, you only think you don't know anything about music. Because a lot there's a lot of a lot of people have hijacked music and music education. And they want to make it smarter than what it needs to be they want to make it more academic than what it needs to be. Doesn't need to be academic at all. You know, you don't need academics in music, you know, but there are people that like to what's the word? Academic, non academic, academic, I want to do that to everything. And you can, it can break something, you make it so inaccessible. To make it accessible, and I know that I know that the education departments had trouble with that, you know, trying to make the try and make your subject because music can be more complicated than physics. Yeah, of course. How complicated Do you want to it? Yeah, you can make it as complicated as you are. And this never stops. It's like a fractal. It's, you know, and it's exciting the other way it can be as simple as a drumbeat going. Yeah. Yeah, it can be as complex as the most weirdest harmonies in combination with strange texture. B, you know, there's, it's endless. It is it is it's like Yeah, yeah, find the ocean. Yeah, we've only we've only explored what is it 5% of the ocean or something like that. It's the same. It's the same with music. So I didn't and now we're finding sound. You know, I was reading an article from Stanford University the other day where you know, they're using acoustic technology and sound technology to pack heart cells into places where they can't that's the only technology that they that they can use. Yeah, they're also using sound as a deterrent for malaria carrying mosquitoes they found that there's sound that I heard Yeah, we'll send frequencies and frequencies Yeah, well, they do they use for dogs for like making them stop barking frequency collars. We can't hear it. Yeah. As you get those big, I mean, you've got those big Sonic Weapons was actually about to say yeah, see that's breaky. It's sort of freaky, it's freaky. So but, you know, people, I think people need to understand that, you know, from my understanding of what those those things are, is they're just very fucking loud speakers. Yeah, right. And this so loud that they're they are extremely and they're very focused on like, point them. So, you know, that's how they're using them and so that, you know, they can point it at you and say, Hey, you get out of it, and it will be so annoying and loud that you move. Yeah, because there's nothing else you can do. I sort of the way I mentioned, I don't know, this sounds terrible. I'm sorry to be little war. But you know, when surprised would seem really high and the glass would shatter. That's how I was imagining that like, like, just send this this frequency through and, and things would just go just like, explode. Yeah. You know, there's nothing to say that doesn't, you know, they couldn't have that power is, you know, if you could do it if the sopranos could do it. Wow. But yeah, you know, there's, there's all types of research to say that, you know, if you think about, think about things having frequency, and if you think about harmonic resonance, so for those people who don't know how might resonance is, you can take a particular notes, say, let's say for example, my crystal balls are great. So I could record a crystal bowl, and I can then apply it and record it. And if I play that, recording back to that crystal ball, it'll start making its own sound because it is resonating with the frequencies in the room. It's, it's unreal, it's unreal. It's just, well, it's just like, if you have guitars, if you have guitars, in your in your and you play the sound of a string loud enough, the strings will start to resonate. So like if I had my singing bowl? Yeah, like dinged it. Another one, if it was the same, would start to go. Possibly, possibly. Yeah. It's probably because it's because of that. Because of the bowl, it probably needs a little bit more to get it right. Like if it was bigger, it would go but it's because it's small. And it's contained. Yeah. But it might, you should try it. But that's how money, let's get this harmonic resonance. Like that's a thing. Just got a cold shiver. We go. It's amazing. So if you think about that, and if you think about everything is frequency, so my god, so people, like things can literally communicate with each other in a way? Well, that's really interesting, because I was reading an article. I was reading an article the other day, who they're looking into research saying that actually, cells communicate with each other through sound waves. Because it's the fastest way to travel through. It's not like a sound that we can hear. Yeah, it's a vibration. Yeah. So but that vibration, create contains information. There's so much we don't know, there is so much we don't know. I mean, I, I know. And you know, me, I'm sure there's people out there that don't call bullshit. But like, we don't know, we just we don't like anything, you know? And, you know, so where do you think this is gonna take you like, you're on this, this amazing sort of journey of you could go anywhere. It's really, yeah, could I sort of feel I do feel a little bit lost at the moment. Like, I want to, like, I would love to turn this type of thing into my day job, this exploration of sound because there's probably nothing that really makes me feel like I'm serving my purpose, or being me then offering that sound stuff to people. But then to do that, there's that there's that part of having the other side which is the business sense and, and you know, and looking at that, that that is as in that is like the inner wellness industry space as well so that I'm not particularly good at like, you're good at the creating stuff, so I'm not not 100% Sure, you know, of Yeah, I don't know where it's gonna take me so I'm gonna let it take me wherever it's gonna take me because I know when I started with all this stuff that that felt like that felt like home. It's like, right here we go. You know? Like, I think I've been looking for something like that ever since I started playing. Playing music and you know it was looking for something you it, I've sort of feel like I've found it. Yeah, it's almost like you had to as a, as a beam as a person had to experience something that was really going to challenge you and push up against you, for you to, to make a switch, I suppose and go nuts. This isn't right. And to go into that, like, almost like you had to come to a head. Yeah, yeah. And I'm bringing my hands together, like, you know, something had been had to happen. Yep. For that shift to take place. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, at a deep, and then there was the highs. And then there was the lows. And then there was the piecing back together. With with, with a new, a new outlook, I guess. So that's, it's been it's been such an such an interesting journey. Up to this point. And yeah, like, I'm really interested to see, you know, how well this type of this type of thing is going to be received, like, in our community, at the moment is really positive. So you know, I can see I can see it a lot of space for growth. It's such an interesting thing, you know, coming from, you know, playing in punk bands and all that sort of stuff. You know, which I'd still do if, you know if if there were the right people. But having people rock out with some blankets and pillows and beanbags. You know, maybe something that cover the eyes, and lay down and listen to music, like really listen to music is phenomenal, just like that, that concept. I love it so much. I mean, it's great to go out to venue and go and see live music and feel that high energy stuff. But it's also great to go within and to feel, you know, it's high, low energy, high energy stuff as well. And then there's also some more calming sort of energies. That yeah, so it's so amazing. And so mind blowing. It's a it's a thing, but yeah, I'm not glad that you had to go through what you had to go through to get there. But I'm very glad that you got that. Yeah, I mean, yeah. You know, I'm a very much very much, you know, you're gonna philosophize about, you know, the good and evil in the world. And you're sort of saying, Well, okay, well, there, there's, there can only be evil, if there's good, and there can only be good if there's evil. Otherwise, there's no any of that stuff. So yeah, I think that's that, that is sort of that. Yeah. You touched on earlier about having your studio. You only needed it since you became a parent. Yeah. Tell us about your your four lovely boys. Yes, sir. Thank you. I mean, incredibly exciting place to be. Yeah. Yeah. So my four boys are very energetic. They are very, very inquisitive. And they are very physical. Yeah, as well. So they can all play music. But whether they'll go down the music path, is there no, no one's chosen that as their main thing yet. That's so how do you feel about that? Well, I don't know. Well, you know, the eldest of 15. So I didn't really start playing. And, like, seriously until I was 12. My 12 year old can play as good as I could when I was 12. But, you know, whether he chooses, you have to have that. I mean, I had my friends, my friends were playing so I played, you know, so whether he can manage us to surround himself with other people that are thinking the same, which is going to be pretty difficult in the current state of music. In in the mount it's just that seems to be we were at this really high about two or three years ago, and now and now. Something's dropped out. And, and musics really taken a backseat and there's a there's a few there's definitely a few people in it in the education scene here that sort of don't see the importance of music and have seen that just sort of slip out from under us, which is quite significant. But you know, I'm not gonna blame it on the schools. You know, it's just it's just We'd have a cultural thing happening. What the way I sort of equation if you've got a town of our size, how many 1000? What are we got? 35? Last time I'll do is 2525. Okay, I'm getting excited. And we don't, yes, that's yours. We don't have a music shop anymore. You know, that just to me shows that we're the level of importance that, you know, that we play we're placing on it, you can't even go in the shop and get your guitar really strong anymore. You know, it's, it's a tough one, that one, you know, knowing the ins and outs of that business. And business business is, you know, we're talking about capitalism earlier. I know that's, you know, you can't give, give money away or, you know, lose money and just keep being a charity. But I just thought how can we not have a music show? You know, just Yeah. Really, it was it was? Yeah, it was heartbreaking for me to I mean, I remember looking at the Facebook posts and thinking, you know, it was almost like, lost, lost somebody. Yeah. Yeah. Had that had that feel about it? And because, you know, to me, the importance of, you know, a place like that is is, is for community. Yeah, but I understand, I understand. I mean, I fully understand what happened and why, you know, they had to shut up and close, but who knows. But that's not so bad community. Like we'd always put out if we had a gig, we put our posters up in there. We had our, like, my albums with Assange there. I could bring the guys when I, whenever I had trouble with our PA, I'd be like, Michael, why can't I get it to turn on? You know, they were just they're not just think. You know? Yeah, it does makes me sad. I mean, at the end there are they're all like students of mine. Yeah. Right. And yeah. You know, I've also, you know, they're not the first students to, you know, work there. So it gave them a bit of a rite of passage. I know that likes because you said like to do work experience there. And that's, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a shame, but I feel I feel that, you know, there's 25,000 people here, but musics just not big enough to sustain that type of thing. You know, but it's all goes back to how much importance do we want to put on music? You know, so, you know, with, with my boys, I know, I know, it's not right, to force anything onto them, because it's nothing forced onto them by Daddy's going to be cool. Not once they like once they hit the teenage years. Yeah. So they played in a band when they were like, in year five. They did like a talent show and are really, really good. Did you watch it? Yeah, they're very good. To me when I watched I don't know if it was just like a proud parent thing. But they made it look so bloody effortless. I must say your your kids doing things? Like very natural. And like, No one. No one was there when I worked with them for, you know, maybe five weekends in a row of working on this Boulevard of Broken Dreams, whatever. Some yeah, there's Boulevard of Broken Dreams, I think it was and put the staff that like the the work and effort that went into making that look like that was huge. You know, it wasn't that that was this easy thing. It was it was difficult. There was a lot of that when we're talking before about, you know, grit, there was a lot of grit. And that was really tired, grumpy children at the end of those sessions. So, you know, I'm hoping that I didn't ruin the experience for music because they didn't get to perform and yeah, but they didn't win. Say they won. But yeah, I think they made it look so easy that it just like, Oh, these guys. They're good. But so yeah, that's it's interesting. But, you know, with anything with with kids, you've got to let them find find it themselves and find that passion rather than live out. Your passion, you know, that lands on last thing. I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be that parent that is living through their children. I don't want to be that person. So they can, they can do whatever they they like and do they listen to you like and value what you tell them? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I try until you know, Alex plays the bagpipes, right? Oh, yeah. And I think he chose that because neither Ben or I have any experience. Yeah. We kept doing this for years. I'd be like, Oh, do you want to play? You know, play the piano, and then be like, join play guitar? Nah, I don't want to do that. Now all of a sudden popped up the bagpipes. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's funny because um, You know, I've spent a fair bit of time with with the kids lately, due to COVID. And due to, we went to went to Melbourne, the other the other week, just me and the boys drive up in the morning and drove back in the evening. And it's funny, you know, when I'm with them, the conversations that we have can be quite intense, like, the other day, we were driving a football, and the conversation was about how everything came to be, you know, it was that deep. Yeah, it was, you know, okay, so science says there was a big bang, what was before the Big Bang? That's that type those types of questions. Yeah. You know, and that's the type of, I love having those conversations with the kids the whole big, expansive, mysterious, inquisitive style of conversations where we sort of just riff over things. You know, I was having having a chat to one of the elders the other day, and he was talking about and, you know, he gets through that stage where, I mean, schools always push your career path, and what do you want to be and all this sort of stuff. And he was sort of riffing riffing on that. And I said to him, do you want to do you don't want to? Because he's going to be say, said, like, you know, what? Would you rather? Would you rather me be a millionaire? Or would you rather, and be like an asshole? Or would you rather me be the guy that people come up and shake their hand says back now he's a good bloke? And I said, Well, I can't say is that clear? Cap? Yeah, you know, I can say that. You should think about, you know, what you want to do in the world by asking yourself? What type of contribution can you make to humanity? And if you can answer that question, then that's going to put you on the right path to where you want to go. Because that's sort of you know, that's what it's all about. You know, so you could, you can become a millionaire doing that, or you can become a millionaire, being self centered and thinking, it's all about me, and just wanting to climb the ladder and step on whoever I need to decline that letter, wherever I'm going, you know. But at the end of the day, you know, you got to be happy with who you are, and, and what you're doing in the world. So, yeah, they listen to that side. That's a lot. I love that sort of stuff. They may not listen to me when I say you dirty, go and have shower, please. Yeah, it's time for bed. Or we just said he's ready. You know, they might not listen as much, but they certainly listened to those big questions, but they don't. They go off and they ponder, yeah, that sort of thing. And so I'm really impressed that particularly they do that. So that's, that's really good. And, you know, even my youngest, we talk about all different types of things. He's, he's, he's into wondrous things. So you know, if there's a great sunset, I'll call him out or so we're gonna go and have a look at it. We've been what we've been looking at how, you know, I mean, I can't because, I mean, the weather's shitty, but it's rainbow season. Yeah, you know, and been looking at the angle of the eyes compared to wherever the rain might be to the sun. You can you can predict where these rainbows are gonna come and then you can see them before they even arrive. Yeah, and we've been, you know, get excited. Over there. Is that is that is that going to turn into a rainbow? Yeah, is if you can, that's that's pretty cool. So I love doing that type of thing. You know, there's really really sporty so they're, they're very focused on sport. And I think you know, my wife's very, very that was her type of upbringing as well country sport. Where I was city kid, so I was into music and then hanging out with my mates and being hoodlums. There's plenty of that going on in the country. Yeah, there is there is bad The twins have got a year before they get a license. So yeah. I'll have I'll have less to worry about if they're more like their mother. stories with you from Ben. Yeah, So is it important to you that your boys see you as more than I don't say just dad, because, you know, you're not just you do a lot of other things is important that your children say that do you feel? I think I think if we talk about, I think if we talk about contributing to society, if there's one thing that I would like them to do is to, you know, contribute to helping others. Your positive. So, that's something that's important that they see me being that, that positive change that you want from other people, you know, and doing all those those things that, you know, that you put in being like a helpful client, you know, all that sort of thing. That's important to me, they see that and they take that bet on all those positive aspects to life, I guess, not worried about, you know, often think about, you know, winning in our head is that, how does that how does that how does that impact the kids, you know, they streamed it live in their classroom and all that sort of stuff. You know, because I don't put much emphasis on on awards, you know, for them, and grades and that sort of thing, because it's not really about that. But there I am winning this big award. Yeah. How does that how does that how does that factor in NSO competitive? So I don't have the answer to that. But it is something that I have thought about, like, ah, yeah, wow. I wonder how that's going to impact them. But I guess also, if they see how you deal with that, too, like, they don't see you wandering around the streets going, Hey, look at my art, you know, what I mean? Like that you can achieve something and receive something and be rewarded for your work, but not make a, you know, a song and dance about us? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we have the odd conversation about how like, it's the best qualification ever. Looks good. I thought I can I can, I can literally argue to anyone about music now. What do you have in our particularly music education? Yeah, there's all these people that are way more trained than I am in music, education. They don't have an art. Here we are saying how modest I am. So always a joke. And it's always it's always it's always good fun. So, yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's important. You know, I want them to be I want them to be good people. And, yeah, I want to, yeah, I want them to make positive contributions, I think, you know, it's, it scares me that the world is so messed up. And that they, they are going into, they're going to grow up into a world that needs action. We've all we've all the, you know, all the crappy things that has been done to it. And, you know, it's still being done to it, you know, so, I'd love for them to be part of the solution of whatever that is. And I don't think shooting off to Mars is the solution. But yeah, but they're the types of things like humanity actually needs to look after each other and, you know, get back to relationships and don't get political. But, you know, we vote reverse voting in the Labour government and labor is for the people. I think there's this big change about, you know, looking after each other, you know, social housing and looking after elderly and childcare and like, just getting back to basics. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And, you know, there's a Yeah, yeah, there's a and there are a lot of there are just a lot of systems that, that aren't working, you know, in our society. And I think they need I think they, there's a lot of systems that need overhauls and they need to read they need rethinking? Yeah. So, you know, there's, there's so many, and, you know, if we, if we went into that mindset, you know, if of of looking after each other and humanity and relationships and not perpetuate the classes, which, you know, I believe that schools will perpetuate classes, you know, these people are going to go off and have these topics Little jobs in the majority of you probably the in the middle here, and then some of you fail and be down the bottom. And, you know, you'd be delegated to not having a job or having really low wage or whatever it is, you know, we can patch right that in the school, there's no need to do that, if we focused on relationships, and we were looking after each other, and that would be less likely to happen. Yeah, that's, that's pretty scary. That, you know, that that's literally meant probably begins before, but that's, you know, where people learn how to treat each other, and how, where they're going to be in the world. And that's a difficult thing to shake. If someone already thinks that they're wherever, you're not going to change from that. Yeah, I mean, any of us can think back to school. And, you know, like, once it's over, you've only got those, those bits and pieces that stick with you, you know, the rest of it sort of just falls away, you know, didn't matter. You know, it didn't matter. It didn't matter who was popular. It didn't matter what you learnt in geography, you know, but what mattered was how you felt. And that's what sticks with you. So oh, shoot at school. So did you have a good time? I feel good, right? Yeah, yeah. I failed. I did school at the end of year 11. First time, I went back and did the 12. But anyway, did shoot. I found music and they, they found easy. They should be telling people Yeah. Well, it's important to know, no, it's actually important. Because, like, if I had thought that, oh, my god, I gotta do music. I must be crap. If I had thought that, then I wouldn't have the life. You know, I just had the foresight to know that I was actually good at music, but I just didn't want to do what they wanted me to do. You know, I didn't. I wasn't interested in theory, because that's not what that's not what was, I was inquisitive about. I was inquisitive about the skill set. And I was inquisitive about how I could get better at playing my instrument. That's all I wanted to know. Yeah. And, you know, and I was a guitar player, so that that theory, stuff didn't have didn't bounce off me very well. And it was taught like shit, oh, my God. You know, theories theory is not very boring at all. But the teachers continue to teach it in such a boring fashion. It's actually really exciting theory is really musical theory is really, really exciting. But it's, it's, it's very, you know, you've got special teachers out there that can do it beautifully. But that's not how I was taught. So I just didn't listen and probably didn't go to class and that sort of thing. So that's how that's how it is, you know, so it was one of the, like I said, it's one of the reasons why I became a teacher to be because, like, I knew something had to be wrong with music, or I'm sorry, something had to be wrong. We let go because I was, I knew I was good at music. There was I wouldn't listen to my English class because I was too busy looking at the glossy pages of guitar magazine then again, same music and like, yeah, I just knew that that that wasn't me. That that was the system. Yeah, I was. Yeah, yeah. And I was just ready to give the whole world the middle finger then. And, and I didn't went up and got an apprenticeship and yeah, it just took me a little while to get back to I just need to spend my days you know, doing stuff and dreaming about songs. Yeah. So yeah, I drink Oh my God, when I get home, I'm gonna I'm gonna write this song. It's been in my head all day. But I wouldn't do it. But it was it was in my head. Yeah, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom. I also name and so when I talk to my moms on this show, we talk about this thing called mum guilt. So this idea that mums should exist for their children, and if they do something for themselves, they should feel guilty about that or they should feel bad if they don't think do things right and bring that in air quotes based on you know, society's expectations of what a mum should be when management. And I've been like asking deaths then. Do you have a Thoughts On a thing? Is there a thing of dead guilt? Do you experience those sort of emotions of You know, the pressure is on you as a dad, to whatever roles in your family, you've got to fulfill that. And if you don't, you know, how does it make you feel? Is that something that you've sort of never encountered? Um so I would say that I've never encountered dad guilt. But I've definitely encountered husband guilt. You know, it's a I know, I know, my wife is relentless in what she does around the house. You particularly washing is huge, because yeah, it was it was a big family. It's just It's endless cycle and you live in Mount Gambier, and there's no way to dry it and that sort of thing. So there's always washing hanging from the wherever, yeah, it's like a cave of washing all the time. So you know, there are times there are times where, you know, I think, oh, maybe I should pitch in there a little bit more, and that sort of thing. So that's it. But not as a parent, there's nothing, there's no, there's no, I don't feel, you know, I think I do as much as I can say, and then when I do as much as I can, as much as I think I can, that's probably a better way to explain it. So then I don't feel guilty when I'm out doing my own thing. Yeah. And also know that the important that like, see, it's a you know, you have to sacrifice your time, every now and then to do things for yourself, and you have to sacrifice time to do things for your kids. And, you know, time time is. Okay, and you're gonna get to this because you posted a really interesting post today about time or Yeah. Well, that's the time is three, but how do you spend it? Yeah. And then, and then, yeah, you talking about the quote that I posted? Yeah. Like it read that book. Yeah, the time is precious. Yes. Yeah. It's pretty cool. I love the quote from that book of the, the, the, the Emerald Tablets, and, and, you know, it's like, time does not move. But yet we move through time. It's like, whoa, that's pretty cool. You know, and, you know, we exist as events in time, our consciousness exists it as events in time. But yet, all time is at once. It's about Yeah, so it's, it's such a mind blowing time is mind blowing. And which is, this is the thing. So, you know, when we talk about music, and we talk about rhythm. So rhythm is just fractions of time divided. Okay. And then if we keep going, and we keep dividing and dividing and dividing, dividing, divided by the value, that we get pitch, and then pitch and how fast how fast, you do want to play with the sound waves, because you know, and it's like, and then you keep going, going, going, going, going, you'll get light. And so, you know, so that's, that's the thing, because quantum physics, this is a thing, like when we talk about light frequency, you know, we talk about sound frequency, we're talking about how fast things are vibrating. And, you know, so it's, that's pretty, pretty interesting. I love that sort of stuff is so cool spins. Yeah. I mean, and, you know, part of the reason why I've reposted that is is, you know, something that we really have to be mindful of, and I have to remind myself all the time, is the amount of distractions. You know, it's like, it's like, we almost live in a society that is just distractions, everything's a distraction. So you would have be, whether it be on TV or on your phone, definitely the Doom scrolling is a distraction, but it's not just the phones, it's, it's like, it's, it could be it's your job, it's whatever it is distracting you from me, you know, distract me from being present. And we're coming back to the relationship stuff before just being present with you know, and we're all guilty of, of being distracted while while a loved one wanted us. And, you know, we were so into it, we're into a rabbit hole. We're like, well, hang on, don't interrupt me because I'm so into this distraction. So, you know, I've been thinking about distractions a lot and being present and you know, and that fact that you can't, you know, you can't get you can't get that back. You can't get that time that being present with somebody. If you're fully there with somebody and you know who Oh, that person is, you know, you can, you know, that moment is going to be as precious as I said we're going to be. But if you're distracted, then you know, that moment. There's lost. Yeah. So and that's it and that you can't get that target time back. Yeah. Yeah, you can't get it back. It's gone. So, but you can be there with it when it's happening. And that's a that's a, that's such a, you know. That's they, that's what they should be teaching in schools. But instead, instead of my kid came home the other day, and he goes, Dad, that I learned something that at school, I'm like, Oh, what do you learn? He goes, if I have my left hand in my hoodie, I can actually be on my phone in the middle of the class and the teacher. Right? It was Yeah. And misaligned even sees and I'm like, Wow, you did learn something today. You know, it's like, yeah. So But isn't it great that I that now you're literally in the trenches? Now you're teaching the teacher? I'm gonna say teaching the teachers, you're sharing your experience with it? Yeah. Yeah. And allowing that to change it from the inside. Yeah, it's the ultimate sort of Gotcha. Isn't it? Like, haha, I'm right here now. Yeah, doing this, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it was, it's, it's, it's, you know, we talk about, you talk about imagination. And if you, I was reading, I heard quote, the other day of something he was about, you know, if you're imagining something, you're literally bringing it into existence. So it's like a movie for the premiere of a movie. So just like that ARIA thing came into existence, you know, me being a crack in the system, sort of manifested over time, because that was where, you know, your life had some intellect. So if you have positive thoughts about about where the future could be, you know, then most more than likely, you're gonna end up, you know, in that in that scenario, some one way or another. Yeah, it just seems to be like that. But if you're if you're always, you know, negative, and you have that negative, and I was like, Oh, my God, I'm not gonna have anything after this finishes and blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's the type of thing you sort of manifest and then all of a sudden, you don't have anything. Yeah, you make your reality happen. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy. It is in positive ending, it is. You know? And, yeah, so yeah, that's, that's the way it is, there's always there's always someone that's going to have an easier path. There's always someone that's going to have a tougher path. Yeah, I'm going back to when you had to have the twins? And how did your sort of concept of yourself your own identity change when you became a dad? When I think back to those hazy times, it is a bit of a haze. We don't know what it was like to have one kid. So you know, it was always too. And. And, you know, it was just asking about Gambia, so there was no, there was no real like family network that was able to be here. So it was very tiring. And it was very, I don't think the concept of myself changed at all. One thing that I wasn't ready for is like, when my wife was pregnant. I remember. I mean, at first, the first looking after looking after this, this unborn baby here, scared that something was going to happen, you're scared that, you know, eat the wrong food, or whatever it was. We actually got a phone call from the doctor 20 weeks into the pregnancy, and it was something's something's happening this, we've got some results that are that don't look very, very promising. That's like the chromosome test. And so we had this conversation about, you know, what, what would happen if if this was the case, you know, and so and it was, it was quite foreign. But we hadn't had a ultrasound yet. And so when we went to the doctor, put on the ultrasound, and he goes, Well, you went for an amniocentesis that needle thing. And the doctor goes, well, here's your baby's heartbeat. It goes on. See this thing? Here's your other baby's heartbeat and he was gone. Oh my God, we've just gone from thinking something's wrong with the baby to we're having another baby. So it was in May. It was that was a roller coaster. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, really exciting. hugely exciting. I mean, I was excited to have twins. But me as a person It didn't change. I felt, I felt great because, you know, because I felt like me. I didn't feel any pressure to be a different person. I was already a teacher, so I had that experience with older kids. You know, I wasn't much of a colicky sort of guy, you know, sort of like the girls had a baby or something like that. I'd be like, Yeah, I can keep the baby. I still am that guy. I'm still around, you know. But yeah, it was different when when are my own? So you know, I guess you just have so much love for the kids that. I mean, yeah. So it was probably wasn't a thing. My identity probably wasn't much of a thing to me at that time. And that it was just his head down. You know, it was go, it was because it was go all the time. And there was no time to do anything else. But do parenting. Yeah, really. In that time there was work. And then there was parenting. And there's probably a little bit of sport that went on as well. And so there was a lot of juggling between my wife and I and all that stuff. But yeah, I think I remained reasonably intact. I still saw myself as an immature young boy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It probably wasn't until I turned 50. Where I've gone might not be that little immature like 16 year old that you've always thought you'd been even in your 40s. Again, time it's a it's an interesting concept. Like, you just think I don't feel any different to how I've always felt my whole life. But I look different. People think you'd be different because you're getting older, but you just feel exactly the same. Yeah, it's such a weird thing. Yeah, it's yeah, it's still that same inside of your consciousness, you still that same person that you were, you know, you read my report, remember, read my report, when I was in primary school, still, they still that kid, probably distract the class less. You know, I still got the if I'm in a big crowd that when we have in front of someone who is trying to do something, you know, still feel the urge to distract people because I'm distracted. You know, I talked about distractions before, but my brain is distracted all the time. With whatever. Yes, yeah. Yeah. So when did you then we were able to point to things to sort of sit down with the boys and you're able to get back into your music. So what happened was it was being organic, really. I was just thinking, what? When was it that happened? So the what happened was, it was the first time where as for sort of, we'd bought a house, we bought a cheap house was getting a pretty good wage. And I remember buying a guitar. As a first it was a guitar that I wanted ever since I was a kid. And I had the money to buy it. And it was all systems go and bang, I bought it. That really sparked my, my interest. And then what I did was, as soon as, as soon as that comes back to you, you know, after you've had your head down for so long, and the kids were still, you know, that one, the red one then, and maybe a little bit younger. But you know, but the first six months is head down and get, you know, you're doing literally everything for kids. Yeah, everything except for breathing. Yeah. And I ended up enrolling in this online course at Berklee School of Music, which is orchestrating for film and TV. And that's where I did all my theory chops and all my orchestration skills and everything like that. And I found that, you know, in in looking back on that, that kitten that certainly kept me grounded through that period of parenting with music connected with music, and ended up landing me the job because then I had some sort of qualification behind me. That wasn't just education based. So, you know, that was sort of worked in really beautifully. And then we only had two years before we got the next one. So you know, and then it was head down again. And, you know, I don't remember, like the specifics of that time. I've kept a journal of that sort of stuff. And so, you know, you can look back at those times. I know looking at the videos that our house is trashed, like, you know, as soon as, you know what we had for under four under four, definitely for under five anyway, the house, you know, and my kids always doing shows and, you know, show means that you have to have a Stage and Stage means you have to have every blanket in the house draped over chairs, and you have to buy the tickets and all that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's a theatrical production. That's right. It's funny, it's funny, but it's and all the toys and you just get toys. And then they have a birthday and you get more toys. And they're like, you know, so. I know, when we had that first lockdown. Last, we decided that we tried to start to declutter, and so we had so much stuff that so much stuff. Oh, my God, particularly, particularly out toys and stuff like, that the kids really didn't really play with. There's a few toys they played with. But you know, there were there were definitely like cardboard box kids. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's something that's. Yeah, that said, you know, we talk about capitalism and consumerism. And at the end of the day, all they needed was a cardboard box. It's the old joke, isn't it? Like you give the kid for the Christmas present. And I play with the wrapping bag. Like, it's just like, the whole thing just frustrates me. I was on the airplane come back from LA the other day, and I was thinking, how did it all start? Like, how did it actually start? That that became important? And then what role is advertising played in, in that to get inside people's minds and make people think they need to have this and they have to have this? And you know, I love madmen. That's one of my favorite TV shows. Okay. Some, it's based in the 50s. In the 60s, in New York City, it's an ad agency. And like, you sort of think, when you watch it, I don't know how much of its true. But you think, well, that's why we all want such and such because somebody told us we, you know, I just, I, I wish I would understand more about it. Like, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's super powerful psychology, you know? Yeah. And it's all it's all to make make people money. You know, that's, that's what it is. It's about, you know, who wins, wins, wins the most whatever, you know, but, you know, it goes that I don't know how we got how we got there, you know, you know, it's a, it's a strange thing, you can have everything you want, without having that. But, you know, I heard a good story about that the other day, you guys can't put it into context of something about this guy's fishermen. And you know, he did official day, and get all this beautiful fish and take 100 His wife and make love to his wife and his beautiful, beautiful life. And one day, this other, this other person comes along and says, Well, why don't you? Why don't you fish like this. So you can then sell, you take some of the fish, and then you can sell some of the fish. And with that money you buy given so you buy a bigger boat, and then you can do more more fishing and get more efficient, and you can buy fleet of boats, and then you know, and the guy will go, okay, and then what would I do? Yeah, you know, then you can franchise it out. And you can, you know, have an international cooperation, you want to learn what I do? Yeah. But at the end of the day, you know, he already he goes, Why would I want to do that already? Has every you know, because yeah, then what would you do? Well, you can have everything you want, because I've already got everything I want. And that's that type of thing. Yeah. Where we don't think like that, as a society. You know, there's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of pressure to be thinking about, and schools do it. So let's do it right at the beginning, what are you going to be when you grow up? Yeah, you know, yeah, it's like, and the answer is, well, I'm going to be me, when I grow up. That's true. That's what I'm going to be I'm going to be me, you know, I'm not defined by what I do. You know, I'm not defined by I'm not defined by, you know, being working in a cafe or that doesn't define me, you know, not even being on stage defines me. I'm just me. You know, there's just trying to put my best self forward to the world and you know, that's, that's not what we teach. We teach, you know, you've got to get this job. If you don't do this, then your options are. Oh, you know, it's like, what complete bullshit. Actually, your options are. What Yeah, whatever you want to make them to be like and Your options can be anything you want to have to school. So that's why I keep telling Alex, like, he's at that point now, like choosing subjects for what you want to be when you grow up. And I just keep reminding him that I found the best job I'd had. Up until recently, only nine years ago. And about three months ago, I found the best job that I've ever had in my life. You know, like, you just cannot expect someone to know at that point in their life, anything about the job they're going to do? Because they haven't been in the world and experience things and seeing what they might like or might not like, yeah, how can you? How can it's all this towards this end goal? I can't, like have these experiences as they're going through, you know, each day be? What are we going to do today? That's going to be great, rather than let's look 30 years in the future and see what's gonna happen there. And you miss out on all this? What's in front of you? Yeah, yeah, that's right. And, you know, the subject selection in my eyes should be about whatever makes you happy. You know, what, what you think you can be, you have the most fun or that sort of stuff. You know, not because all your mates are doing it. But you know, kids want to do that they want to do something, because they might spend that not might not be the best thing for them to do. Not not not in every circumstance. And I my children would literally choose something because they might so doing it. But I'd rather than that I'd rather than go or what is my interests? Yeah. Where does that lie? Like, who cares about if it's going to lead to whatever, because you can do that later anyway? No, it's not. Nothing's finite. Oh, that's it isn't? Yeah. And that's what I did. You know, I 24 years old, or whatever I was did the stat test. So instead of slugging over a year of year 12, I did a two and a half hour test. And you want to know, yeah, I'm a teacher. Yeah. Got a degree? Yeah. Yeah. Now that's like, yeah, I say now, it's just he was saying, What do you want me to do when I grow up? And I'll say the same thing, like, whatever makes you happy, you know, been to financial planner. So he brings that other side of all, we have to have enough my live on? Yes. One that I know that. But you still have to enjoy yourself every day. You know, you have you actually have to have a reason to get out of bed and think What am I going to do today? That's, you know, contribute to the world? And I don't know. Yeah, well, that means I. Yeah, that's, uh, yeah, putting through and that's that thing about being an artist, you know, I'd love to be an artist, but I can't put the food on the table, the practicalities of you have mouths to feed. You know, I could do it. I could, you know, I'd be quite happy living out of like, a tiny house and off grid or whatever, just to start and just doing sound and stuff like that. But you know, when you have responsibilities, responsibilities, when they all move out? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I've kind of finished asking the main questions aren't cool. Do you have anything else you wanted to share? around this topic? That's sort of on your mind. Oh, we've been quite we've talked about life universe and everything. We have covered a lot. Yeah. I mean, it's probably important to it's probably important to note that you know, the partnership I have with with my wife is that she's, she's, she's not creative, you know, she's practical. And and that sort of makes for a you know, this stability in particularly in my sort of crazy stinking start type of thing so that's probably something that's that's worth that's worth mentioning that that sort of made it work may will gave me the the license to be creative as well. To know that that practical side of things getting looked after and you know, finances and all that little that type of thing so that's probably something that's that's helped a lot throughout the throughout the child rearing years as well and having you know, and also she's really good at this because the full boys there's so much stuff on and someone's got to be here and someone's got to be Oh, yeah, yeah. And and there's and there's excursion on this day, and then there's a carnival over here and then there's we have to go away for six hours or whatever it is all those types of things. You know, she manages all of that. I don't really want I'd just you know, it's literally Ah, you What's going what's happening? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's been an important thing that's allowed me that's, that's, you know, I'm grateful that that's allowed me to have that. That license to think think out in the clouds and out in the cosmos wherever my brain goes while I'm trying to think of new ways to explore sound and music. So, yeah. Good on it. It to me it takes a team doesn't it? Like it's you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, it would, you know, it's obviously much. I mean, it has its challenges as well. So you got to gotta acknowledge that it's, you know, that takes work. And it's not just something that sort of is something you just breeze through. Yeah. Conversation certainly change from talking about stuff to talking about children. Yeah. And yeah, that's it. And then you just go to sleep because it's stuffed Yeah. Plenty of times now where sleep before? Tick, they're older children. Yeah. And, you know, they're not too bad though. They're, they're pretty good at getting themselves to sleep. But they say teenagers have a completely different body clock. Yeah, they do. They designed. They're designed to, they're designed to and this is, again, you know, this SSID is strange. But yeah, teenagers are designed to get up later and go to go to sleep later and get up later. Yeah, that's what they're there's Cayden rhythms. That's what they're designed to do. Who knows what that's for? I don't know what that's for. I read any research. This is the thing, right? Like, this is the I was reading about this the other week. Because same thing, Alex is up, I go to bed, and he's up for like, 14, it was up to me. And it's like, what special pair I have these kids got that were stifling, because we're making them get up and go to school at eight in the morning. Yeah. What are they supposed to be doing with this? Well, you know, if you think about the way I like to think about these things, is that, you know, if humans have been around for like, who knows? Like, I'm gonna just pull out 100,000 years, you know, we've spent the last, you know, say 90 90,000 years in this evolving as humans like, that tribal sort of situation. And what were they what were the what were teenagers? Doing? Yeah. What is their role late at night, up until about 12 o'clock, when someone else might have taken over from whatever they were doing? Yeah, keeping the community doing something. Who knows? I'm just guessing, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And then we've just gone shook. Yeah, yeah. Everything we have. And we've, we've, we've, it's good. The cookie cutter, you know? And, you know, but it's funny, because, you know, we look, you look back to Pink Floyd the wall. And that's what that was all about, you know, and we're still I mean, we wrote a musical about Mark back, we wrote a musical about that, you know, and we wrote a musical about, you know, music had been ousted in society. And if you were caught playing music you'd be asked to do to wastelands. And, you know, and that all came from the psychological damage that this the leader of the community had as a child. Right. And that's pretty deep in US. Classic. It's classic. Yeah. It was, it was it was a classic show will well, quite intense about, about the system and the education system. And, you know, and the way that sometimes it gives, it also gives people interesting positions of power as well. And they might not always be the right person for that particular role that they're doing. And, you know, and everyone, everyone listening would have had that experience in schools, you know, whether, you know, whether it was a teacher, or somebody else but someone that was just abusing their, their power. And that's another interesting thing about because they're the school models in the world where the kids actually choose Is the employment that happens that that the school including the principal and everything that yeah, Sudbury schools? Yeah. And they don't have to study anything. They can spend their time playing video games if they choose where are the sky? And I don't know if there are any in Australia or not say, wow, there's interviews with schools and so some kids are works and doesn't work for all kids. But yeah, see, that's the thing isn't nothing's going to because there's not a one size fits. It's not a one size fits all. Yeah, well, you know, yeah, like, yeah, yeah. So So were you able to use your platform as like, writing these musicals to, to sort of I don't want to say we're putting ideas into children's head, but you were you were getting your ideas across of your thoughts of the schooling system and challenging and perhaps getting the kids to think about things a bit differently? Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. Probably didn't think of it like that. But yeah. You know, that. What are we going to tell the kids? No, we wanted. So what we wanted, what we really wanted, when we did our musicals was that we wanted to, because I was sick of seeing these musicals that were meant for adults, you know, they were and you just see kids playing out our roles. And it's like, Well, it'd be, it'd be much more appropriate if kids could play kids roles. And what we wanted to do was empower kids in the musical. So the heroes, we're always going to be the kids, the kids save the day. And then all three musicals that we write kids save the day, because it's empowering for the kids. And they are, you know, most of them are playing kids. There's some kids that play on this, because you can't get around that. So that was the main thing. But yes, we were talking about, we're talking about issues that that we liked to talk about, that we were passionate about, you know, and the first one was the education system. The second, the second one was the earth. Yeah. And it was built around this story about some, some indigenous people were talking about the effects of uranium mining in Central Australia. So it was built around that idea. And then the third one was a multi storey development going to be built on top of this beachfront. And the kids are worried about their Lou's gonna lose their fish and chip shop. So and of course, there was a local environmental problems as well. And it was all about plastic. And that's the stuff. So we had stuff that we were sort of really passionate about, we wanted the kids to know about. And we wanted, you know, we wanted them to know that this is this is this is the world you growing up in. And there's no reason why you can't be a hero in that world. And that's sort of where we giving them the eight ships of agency that they can have an impact, even though in in the world set up of the adults are in charge, and the adults do everything. But the kids actually, they have so much power that they can, you know, bring? Yeah, well, I mean, you know, literally the kids, the kids are the future. So, I mean, you know, and we're stuffing up their world. Yeah, I mean, seeing Whitney Houston, yeah. But she was right, she was in school rock, Jack Black says that the staff, you know, teach them well and let them lead the way. Frequency Fridays, every second Friday, I'm going to be offering some type of sound bath at the inner Sanctuary Collective and be super reasonably priced. And the idea is to build a community around sound, which is when price gets so reasonably. And there'll be different things. But at the end of the day, you know, the themes are just there for a framework, you can come for any type of experience. I like that. I might have a, I might have a stillness theme where everything is going to be a bit still or might have an electric theme or everything's going to be electric. You just see where it takes you. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. And, yeah, I'm pretty excited about that. That's, you know, I think that for it to happen, I need to I have some consistency. So you know, try and offer it. Yeah, every fortnight. Yeah. And yeah. And if people want to find out which fortnight so you're just hitting me up on Instagram is the best thing to do. So, yeah, I'll put the links in the show notes. Yeah. today. Thank you so much for coming on, Scott. It's been an absolute pleasure. I've really enjoyed this chat. We've gone to some deep, interesting places, and I've really enjoyed that. Thank you. Yes, absolutely. My pleasure. Have a lovely day. You know, just have a feeling. Yeah, let the conversation sort of late itself. So yeah, very grateful. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Mercedes Rodgers US claymaker + potter S2 Ep50 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Welcome to Episode 50. My guest this week is Mercedes Rodgers, a clay maker and potter from Fort Walton Beach in Florida, USA. Mercedes is a mum of 3 sons. Mercedes studied a Degree in Art History and thought she would go into photography, but she was always drawn to clay, She was fascinated and influenced by a neighbour who was making tiles for her kitchen out of clay from the river bed. When she finished her degree she moved up to New York with her husband, Mercedes worked in art centre that had an amazing pottery studio where she was able to really delve in deep. She learned the craft in the traditional way of learning from others in an apprenticeship kind of way. In additional to her pottery, Mercedes also enjoys painting, photography, knitting, dying fibres and has taught pottery for many years, as well as owning a gallery, She feels deeply connected to the earth, turning to traditional methods to make charcoal from grape vines and ink from acorns and her kiln is powered by solar energy. She loves to try new things and be playful within her work. She loves how pottery has forced her to slow down and be patient, you can't rush the kiln or disaster ensues. **Please be aware this episode contains discussions around stillbirth + infant loss, PTSD, anxiety attacks + grief** Today we chat about how art and journaling helped Mercedes through the loss of her 1st son Conrad, appreciating the connection between the artist and the art they create through practical, functional objects and good old mum guilt gets a big mention. Take a look at Mercedes' marionettes Read about Ruth Duckworth 1000 Paper Cranes Mercedes - instagram / shop Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to Episode 50. It's really exciting to be still hanging around after all this time, and thank you for sticking with me. My guest this week is Mercedes Rogers. Mercedes is a playmaker and a potter from Fort Walton Beach in Florida, United States and Mercedes is a mom to three boys. Mercedes studied a degree in art history and thought she would go into photography, but she was always drawn to clay. She was fascinated and influenced by a neighbor who was making tiles for her kitchen out of clay from the earth. When she finished her degree, she moved up to New York with her husband, she worked in an art center that had an amazing pottery studio, where she was really able to delve deep. She learned the craft in the traditional way, learning from others in an apprenticeship kind of way. In addition to her pottery, Mercedes also enjoys painting, photography, knitting, dyeing fibers and has taught pottery for many years. In addition to owning a gallery, she feels deeply connected to the earth, turning to traditional methods to make charcoal from grape vines and ink from acorns amongst other things, and Akun is powered by solar energy. She loves to try new things and be playful within her work. She loves her pottery has forced her to slow down and be patient. You can't rush the kiln or disaster in shoes. Please be aware this episode contains discussions around stillbirth and loss, PTSD, anxiety attacks and grief. Today we chat about how art and journaling helped Mercedes through the loss of her first son Conrad, appreciating the connection between the artist and the art they create through practical functional objects. And we give good old fashioned mum guilt. A bit of a mention music you'll hear today is from LM J, an Australian New Age ambient music trio featuring myself, my sister Emma, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy welcome to the podcast Mercedes. It's such a pleasure to have you today. Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. I'm looking forward to our conversation. Absolutely. So tell me a little bit about where you are in America. I live in Northwest Florida so the very northern western corner of Florida some people we jokingly call it La lower Alabama. So it's it's the south it's about as much southern as Florida can get not like like culturally is what I'm trying to say but it's really beautiful we I live like five minutes from the beach. It's just like crystal white sands you know the granite that's come down from the Appalachians and crystal clear water and beautiful river so it's really it's kind of like there's a place about an hour and a half down the coast from here that's called the Forgotten Coast. So I think when people think of Florida they have a very like Miami Tampa way over built up kind of vibe and yet here I think maybe because we're so close to Alabama, I don't know. It's just it's pretty like you know, Southern Sorry, sorry. What are you doing in here? Okay, well can you please go take it up with him? Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry. I scheduled like this is great. We just lock it it's fine. It's not a problem it's all right. This is like so much this is so much mom life right where you're like yes, our normal routine is blah blah this should fit in perfectly and today he mapped until like five o'clock in the afternoon so of course now he's just like up rampaging my husband you know, I mean, this my husband he works remotely so he just gave it him like lock the door so hopefully we should be so good yeah, Northwest Florida. It's an OK place. I love the I love the environment here. Sometimes the politics in the southern culture is a little much and I miss the arts. I mean, there's not the biggest The Art scenes here, you know, yeah, right. Yeah. I noticed on your Instagram stories that you, you'd like to do a bit of camping and you're not very far from like woodlands and sort of really? It almost looks like you're in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, it's pretty primitive we there's a very large air force base here that has they call it the Eglin reservation. So it's like, I don't know, 1000s and 1000s of square miles of land that they don't do anything with. And it's been great on the beaches to they have huge swaths of completely undeveloped beaches because of the Air Force. So we can just go out there. Yeah, it's like 15 minute drive from our house and from you know, the relatively small city that we live in to just be in a primitive camping area. And it is, it's wonderful. I love it and being a potter. And my work is so grounded in dirt. Like I just I'm a very much I like being outside being that connection to nature really helps to fuel the work that I do. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. What's the weather like there at the moment? Oh, it's so nice. It's been like in the high 60s, low 70s. That's about 20 degrees Celsius. So just beautiful weather. Yeah, I always like to gardening and yeah, I always like to ask my guests about whether I have this thing about, you know, other places in the world and what it's like and what the weather's like, I don't know, it's the environment really affects the way that we work too. That's what I thought I lived in upstate New York for a while and I didn't believe it as much then. But the transition from moving back down here, I really noticed the change in my work from the environment and just those influences. Yeah, like like in upstate New York, it gets very cold freezes intense amounts of snow. I mean, in the darkness, it's so much darker for longer and all the leaves fall off the trees and here we never even have a real winter. Right so here you know, it's never really that cold and and so the what I see every day is just it's very different because of the weather and the environment. Yeah, so I just noticed I went from carving like doing this graffito work of you know, barren trees on vessels to much more like fanciful mermaids and sea creatures and things like that. Like it was a big ship. It was no but it was it was big. Yeah, absolutely. Now that's awesome so you mentioned there that you you're a potter, can you tell us about what you do? How you got into it? All that kind of stuff? Yeah. I feel like it just goes all the way back to the beginning. Yeah, so I'm predominantly a functional Potter. I mean, that's the way that I have made a living at this. But I love I love like the line in ceramics that line between functional and fine art. So I feel like that's something I'm always kind of playing with like putting little sculptures on my mugs are drawing or screen printing or making little sculptures that have some functional aspect to them that like maybe it's a sculpture of a mermaid but then she's like a jewel secretly a jewelry box or something like that, you know? Yeah. And so. So, the pottery, it's interesting. I got my degree was in art history. So I wasn't sure you know what I was going to do. I wasn't 100% Sure, like what medium I really thought it was good to go in to study I studied quite a bit of photography. But I was I've always been drawn to clay. Since I was young. I was always one of those kids like in the backyard digging up clay when I was an adolescent I lived near this woman who had was digging clay out of a string bed, made herself a wood fire kiln and then was making these tiles and tiling her kitchen. It was amazing. And I just remember being like as a child just in awe that you could take this dirt and make something so permanent. So I think that really stuck with me. And so then, while I was in college, I worked in an art center that had a pottery studio. And then when I got out of when I finished my degree, my husband moved up to New York to do his PhD studies and there was a amazing art center there and he you know, he was like, oh, you should go, you know, check it out and see. And I started, they had an amazing pottery studio there. And then that's when I really like, just delve in deep. So it wasn't something that I studied in university. But it was one of the things that I, I learned it more like in the old way of Craps, like through apprenticeships, and just like self driven study. Yeah. So again, going back to the old ways of, you know, the traditional ways of doing things, and which sort of ties into, I guess what you're saying before, like, you're drawn to the earth and making things it's like, the traditional pathways, I suppose, sort of ties in. Yeah. And, and I think, I mean, this is also that line between fine art and craft, right? Like, because fine art has this elevation in the history of art of like, you know, it's what's in the galleries, and it's what's possible. But the craftsmanship that's like, underneath that is the key, but you have to have the craft before you can have the fine art. You know. I'm just interested to ask you going down your art history route, I spoke to an art historian, an art historian from Adelaide on this program in season one, talk to Melanie Cooper, and she said, just what you've you've just piqued my interest, and I could be off the track here. But she said a similar thing about how fine art, you know, is the thing in the museums and whatever. And then craft got, like a really bad rap, like the women can do the craft, the arts and crafts sort of thing is that that's sort of where you're coming from. I think that yes, when I was studying art history in school, I definitely, that was one of the big things that I picked up on. And kind of just like the, like, if you if you look through our history, it is predominantly men in all of the art forms that that are the majority of the people that are in the museums that are in the galleries, right. And then the crafts, not in all cultures, but in a lot of them. It is like the women in the those once it's a utilitarian, somehow it loses its worth. And then I just personally thought that, in worst for society, it's almost the other way around, right? Like, we need well designed objects that we use every day, like, like, I always think, like my work is like, just like simple beauty for every day. Right? Like I'm a big coffee and tea drinker. Right? So that like handmade mug full of coffee or tea in the morning, it's just like, there's, there's something like so whole about that functional experience. For me, that's also beautiful. And the work of art. Absolutely, yes, I love that. It's like you can celebrate this experience and take this moment, to appreciate everything that's gone into, you know, the thing you're holding in your hand and the vessel that you're experiencing your drink from, it's like there's this massive connection with, you know, where it's coming from and how it got made. And what's the story behind the person that made it and you know, it's just this huge cultural connection. Yeah. And I think maybe our culture has got so far away from that, I think that that's also one of like, my earlier memories of like, seeing between commercially produced products and handcrafted things. My, my grandmother, I love this story, my my grandfather raised horses, and one of my grandmother's friends, her husband was a potter. And so her friend like horse riding horses, and my grandmother loved pottery, so they got the women got the husbands to trade. And so my grandmother has all these beautiful pots by this potter has been very gifted, actually, when you were talking about the influences, that people who influence me, I think his work had such a profound influence on me as a child because I could remember, you know, being with my grandmother in her kitchen, cleaning the plates and the bowls and putting them in, in you know, in the dishwasher and being very careful with them because we knew the person you know, you can feel the finger marks and like somebody that we know created these objects versus like at home, you know, with like the plastic plates or the you know, slip cast mass produce things like there was just a very different feeling in the weight in the whole act of how we use them. And I think that that just really kind of just a huge impact on my life in general. You know, I love in my home as much as I can having things that are either like, old or hands, you know, handcrafted like my, a lot of our furniture was is from my husband's ancestors were from Germany and they were all Woodworkers. So we have like this civil war and all this old like handmade, you know, like a headboard that his grandfather cut down the tree. Yeah, right. It was a wedding gift, right? In the time we like in order to like, ask the person to marry you like this is how you did it. And we're just well, with Amazon, right? We're in like such a different world now. So I think that part of what I do as an artist is like, remembering that and also trying to share that with people, you know, continue sharing the craft and teaching people and yeah, absolutely going forward. Yeah, I love that. It's so important, isn't it? Because we do we just get caught up in this fast, fast culture. Like we need things right now and everything if it doesn't, you know, if you break something, you just throw it out and get a new one because it costs more to repair something that does to buy new and like this whole consumerism is just out of control, isn't it? Yeah. And you think like, we're a potter. I mean, it takes it's such a slow process. I mean, it takes like weeks and weeks for one mug to go from like that ball of clay to something that you can drink out of, you know, it's very, and if you try to rush it, that's the best part. If you try to rush it, it just explodes in the kiln. I mean, it's one of those things like you just you can't, you can't force it to be fast, because you cannot do it yet. It's like it's forcing you to be slow and take your time and be patient. Have you ever struggled with that patients? Like are you naturally a patient person? Or is that really challenging for you? Oh, no. I mean, that's, I think, part of like, maybe the universe, like made me a product that because I'm not patient. And I come like from a long line of very impatient people. Like it's ridiculous. So that's what I'm, that's what I'm always like, Okay, if I rush this, I mean, yes, it really has helped to be, you know, like, I have to be slow or it's just not gonna work. Yeah. So cool. I love that. It's like, yeah, the universe sent you this. So you could just appreciate you know, I love that. You said before about, you could feel the finger marks in the, the plates and the cups. There's a piece of pottery that my mum brought been back from a holiday once and it's it's a fruit bowl. It's beautiful. And it's hand painted. And, and I picked it up one day and realized I'd put my thumb in the same spot as there was a thumb mark. And I just had this like shiver like, oh, like it was just this amazing moment of like, I'm touching where someone has physically made this and my hand is right where their hand was. It was just incredible. I'm getting shivers now thinking about it was just yeah, that connection. That connection is energizing. Yeah. When Yes, I 100% agree. I love Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And I think that also that's part of in a way like what has always drawn me to the arcs when I think about it, like thinking about the people who influenced me. I don't know if you know the sculptor Ruth Duckworth. Have you heard of her? She did a lot of she was a ceramicist. And mostly in porcelain, and made these like very abstract sculptures. And but they so I only saw them in history books. And they were so perfect. Like I just why shiny, beautiful porcelain. And the first time I was in the Museum of Modern craft, I think in Manhattan. And they had a exhibit of her work. And I saw, I got to see some of the larger installation pieces. And as I walked up in the close, there were all these little cracks and imperfections in the pieces. And I might I was just like, it was that same moment of connection of like, here's this person that I've idolized, but also is just a human being who has the same problems in her kilns probably that I have in mind kills, right just like that. That connection of human the human struggle. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Like? Yeah, it's interesting that that we put, and I'm not saying this in a bad way, but we we put people up on a pedestal, it's like, we can't do that. That's unachievable. But then we realized that at the end of the day, they're still human beings. And it's like, we're all going through the same struggles. I think that that's what's great about your podcast, too, right? It's for us artists to realize, like, you know, we create these things from our heart and our soul when we put out in the world to see. But what people see is that finished product, right? They don't see the hours and hours of labor and struggle that goes into it. And I think that especially as moms that's all reminding each other of like, how many days we don't get into the studio to do the work or how many interruptions that we get, but we still somehow you know, collectively figure how to get through it, you know? Yeah, that is so tricky. Talking about your connection to the earth, I had a look on your Instagram, you've played around with making ink from acorns and making charcoal from grape vines. Tell us about that. It's really cool. Yeah, so I think when you know when people ask me, you know, what is your main medium or like, you know, what kind of artists are you? It's always hard for me because I do love to try to try new things. And so, oh, I've done a lot of work in, like fiber work, I worked on a sheep farm for a while. And so I learned some about natural dyeing there. And then that so then recently I was getting interested in sewing and trying to not spend a bunch of money on materials. So I was like buying white sheets from the secondhand stores. And then I was trying to dye them with these organic materials. And then that just like spiral, right, like into the rabbit hole of all these, so then I started looking around where I live, to figure out like, what pigments are naturally available. And the tannins in acorns, I mean, that are everywhere where I live, are very easy to you know, you just have to boil them down and boil them down. And then you're left with a really nice ink that, you know, if you leave it sitting in the sun over time it fades. But like in a sketchbook or a journal. I mean, it really is color fast, and it drives really nicely. So that's wonderful. And then yes, the great fine charcoal, that was just another it was like a recipe, I found a book and it was so easy. I just took a little altoids tin, cut the pieces of vine, put them in the tin and then put the pin in my fireplace. And then after like three hours pulled it out, and I had nice, nice piece of the charcoal. Just love that. It's again, it's just that patience waiting for things to happen. And you know, not rushing. Yeah, like just the playful nature of like, what I think that that's like what I get out of being an artist, right? It's just like that continuous curiosity. And my husband, my husband's background is a chemical engineer. So chemistry, like he's really deep into the chemistry. So it's very interesting. For us like together like, you know, when I go on these these missions to make a coordinate, you know, he's breaking it down on the molecular level and trying to figure out like, you know, the best way to get it to be the richest color. It's It's really wonderful. And exciting way to look. You know, art science and art together. Hmm, that's it, because it Yeah, it's there's so much science. That's thing my kids forget when I talk about let's do some science when we're homeschooling. So let's do some cooking. It's like, that's not science, like Yeah, it is. Because if you get your recipe wrong, it doesn't work. So yeah, that is a really cool connection to have. Yeah, do you and can also talk about your Marionette Bender that that describes my artistic and my bender. So I think that came out of COVID. And being in Northwest Florida were I don't know. I mean, I don't know what you see from the news about what life is like here. But I mean, people really just pretended like COVID wasn't a thing. It was really it was really emotionally, kind of difficult, because I just felt so gaslit a lot of the time. And so like for the first you know, like the first shutdown, things were pretty serious. And, you know, my community and friends like took it pretty seriously. But slowly as the COVID fatigue went on, like people just got less and less, I don't know what the word is, like had less and less self control, or were just more and more tired of, of the, the different waves, you know. And so, again, my husband being a scientist, like he's very much like, we're just going to follow the CDC guidelines, you know, this is how we're going to do it. So that last Omicron wave when pretty much everybody around me was just doing whatever and my little family is back in on nucular thing I was like well, I guess if I can't hang with my friends, I will just make myself some friends and so that's how I started making marionettes and entertaining the kids you know, but they're, they're less entertained by it than I am. I'm really having a lot of fun with it. It has really like it's really like I get I think this is why I love the play in art because that it's really like planted the seed for this very this next step in the sculptural pieces that I'm making that I think you probably saw those on Instagram too that it's like they're almost like I'm imagining them as like altar pieces that you hang on the wall so it's like the human form and that torso area you could put like a candle or a stone or you know leaf or something you know, whatever thing you want to be in there your rings. And then yeah, it will have like the marionette legs and I don't know I'm imagining like some wire pieces I haven't I need to fire a tail load full of stuff. But we it's spring break here right now. So I'm really just in KidZone. So but yeah, that's the marriage and I'm interested to see where it goes. I'm really hoping that that is going to be my next I haven't done any solo shows since the kids have been born. And so I'm hoping when my two year old is going to start in like a preschool next year and so I'm really good Well this year in August, so what I'm really hoping is that I will have a solid body of work I'm imagining those sculptural pieces I'm sure some kind of functional piece will come along and and then some paintings kind of around that that subject, but we'll see right now just a dream. You know, I have to I have lots of big dreams, and then we see what really manifests itself in the end. Yeah, sure. Yeah. I've got to say I'm a bit. I mean, it's one of those things that really freaked me out. I have like a, I don't say it's not a phobia. I just look at them. And I go, Oh, the same with them. You know, those dolls that people have on there when they do ventriloquist dummies. Yeah, freaked me out a lot, too. So when I saw them, I was like, I feel a bit funny, but I'm gonna watch this, because, you know, this is Mercedes work. I'm gonna get into this. But at the same time, I could just feel my skin falling just a little bit. A little bit weird, right? Because you're like making these sculptures and trying to like breathe life into these like inanimate objects. Right? So I think there isn't something like inherently kind of creepy to them. And they have a particular look about them too. Like it's that that traditional? I don't know what the word is. I don't know what I don't know what to describe them as, but they look they have these look about them. It's just me. Don't mind me. All right. I think you're probably not the only one. I'm sure that other people are very. Oh, goodness. But you know how you said about the, like, their, their bellies being like, open. I sort of when I first saw it, it reminded me like of a fireplace of like a, I don't know, that's just where my head went. When I first saw them. I was like, well, that's cool. Anyway, there you go. I can see that. Well, I definitely imagine having candles in some of them. Hmm. So I mean, that's what I love to about like that, you know, like, making functional work or making less representative work is I love like the eye of the beholder, right. I love hearing. Like, when I first when I first started my first real like selling artwork was at a farmers market I then did for like, I think four years straight, where I make my pottery, and then I would take it to the farmers market to sell it. And I always love that interaction with people like hearing what they thought something that I made was where I wouldn't like, you know, like a little tray that I'd imagine it's like a ring holder or a salt dish, you know, and they're like, Oh, my rings would look really beautiful on that, or that would be great. So you know, like they see it as something completely different than that then sparks another idea for me of like, oh, it could be a you know. Yeah, absolutely. And also want to mention that your kiln is solar powered, which is really cool. Yeah. Yeah. That was a big dream that I really never thought would, would happen. But there's been a pretty big push here in Florida. It's so weird. Again, like the politics. We only have Gulf power, which is our power comes from coal, which of course is not good for the environment. And there has been a big push from the solar companies because Florida, there's so much sun, it's a great place to harvest solar. But yeah, we went bankrupt. So we got it at a good time where it was like we could get a decent return for the solar that we produced that we don't use. And it is really exciting to know that I'm not burning coal when I fire my kilns but I am you know, harvesting the energy from the sun and, and using that because it killed I mean, it's amazing. I fire this count the 2300 degrees Fahrenheit, which I don't know what that is. And whoa, Celsius, but it's like it's like volcanic temperatures in there. That's about 1260 degrees Celsius. It's a lot of energy that it takes. Yeah, that's insane. Isn't that the sort of thing? What would something have to be to actually just disintegrate something like, because that's really hard, and your stuffs not disintegrating? Like that's amazing. Well, it depends on where you put in there. I mean, definitely can disintegrate things, but that's like where the chemistry comes in. Right? Because you have to have the right play body to fire you know, that fires at that temperature that ensures at that temperature because essentially what we're doing is we're creating a stone it's called stone layer, because you're putting it through a process that on the molecular level, it becomes a stone stone. That's really fascinating. Yeah, I think that that's what's the hook for me. You know, this idea that you pick a material that's so malleable and soft and just very easily returned. To the earth when you start out with it, and at the end, it's something that's so solid and permanent. I mean, if you think about the things that laugh through the Millennium that we dig up from other cultures often it is shards of pottery. Yes, that's so true, isn't it? You know that we're digging up plastic from from an era anyway, I'm digressing. You briefly mentioned your children there. Tell us a little bit more about your family? Well, my husband, James, we have been together. Oh my gosh, it's 20 years now a lot like our whole adult life. And so we were together for 10 years. And then we started having kids. And so we have three sons and Conrad, he would be 10 years old this year, if he was still with us, and then at Red are middle one is six. And then Arthur, the one who came charging in here earlier is two is quite a little. He is the sweetest little firecracker. They're wonderful. They really just have brought so much joy to my life. Yeah, there was a, again, on Instagram, I'm videoing, again, the Instagram store crews when I'm going to chat to people. So yeah, that was if I keep saying that, but when you're you're painting some mugs, and I'm guessing it's your two year old who's sitting next to you. And he's having a go as well. And it's in fast motion. And you can see, you know, he's painting on his little play, and then suddenly falls down and something happens. And then he paints underneath the plane. It's just such a sweet little thing to watch. It's just so busy doing his painting, it must be so nice to be able to involve them in what you're doing. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's really the only way that I've been figured able to figure out how to continue working, because I do have some help. My mom just lives around the corner, and my husband's dad lives down the street. So that's really nice. But I am I am with them, you know, all the time. So and I struggle, like, you know, I go through these phases where like, Oh, I'm gonna get up before them and work. But then somehow they like, figure out that I'm awake and come in there. You know, it's like, I don't know. So yeah, so that's what I'm always trying to devise a way for them to, like, be part of be part of the process. And you know, also learning along, you know, yeah, absolutely. When they see your work, I guess they're, they're well aware that you're making. You're making things that are going to be used in homes and other people buy them. And it's sort of what I'm getting at is like, it's, it's great that they can see that you're contributing to the world, I suppose, outside of their own home. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah, they're very aware. And one of the main places that I sell my artwork is a place called artist Fano here in Fort Walton, that she sells all local art and our six year old, he's actually started making beads and making necklaces, and he has a little line of stuff that he's selling in our store, too. So yeah, I mean, we really do, you know, I really do try to, you know, show them yes, the process and where the things are going. And, you know, like, let's give them their kits. I don't know if you have this experience, but they just don't want to part with anything, my children, they just want to keep everything. So trying to talk to them about like, you know, I'm making this to sell and it's going to go out into the world, and we're not going to keep everything that we make, you know, and then seeing that process, I think is really, really good for them. Hmm, that's true, isn't it? I hadn't thought of that. That's, that's cool. It's just amazing to me to how much I see them learning in the studio, for example, Everett, who's six now I think it was for his fourth birthday, which seems extremely young to me. As someone who has taught pottery throughout the years, I decided to make little sippy cups for all the kids who are coming to the birthday party to like give them as gifts and he was you know, in the studio with me one making them and then I made a bunch of extra ones, you know, just because in pottery, things break or get broken. And then I just decided I was like, you know, I think I'm going to just let him glaze these because these are his gifts to his friends. I took some videos of it I was shocked at how he there's a tool like this clamp tool that I use that you hold the pot with to dip it down into the glaze bucket. And how this four year old who had been in the studio with me for the last four years watching me could just reel that tool. He glazed all the cups. He did not break a single cup. I mean, I had to like still wipe the bottoms down and stuff, but it just it really hit me how much he had been learning and taking in that I didn't even realize he was born. If that makes sense, that's it like the first time he ever did it. He just knew how to do it because he'd watched you do it for so many years. That is awesome, awesome story you're listening to the art of being a mom was my mum, Alison Newman. Want to talk about Conrad a little bit. So you said he would have been 10 at the moment? Can you share with us a little bit about him and how he's affected your work and maybe continues to affect your work? Yes. So well, Conrad, he was our first son and he died when I was 33 weeks pregnant. So that would be turned to stillbirth. So he, I mean, he was our everything. It was one of those things. You know, I don't know, I think a lot of people of our generation go through this where James and I had like, spent a decade like, trying to build our careers and you know how to get our life together and doing air quotes there. And then we're like, okay, like, it's time to have kids. And it was just like that really easy thing where it was like, two months later, we were pregnant. I was, you know, like this just picture of health birth, there was like no signs of any problems. We were just so excited to be bringing him in the world Captain Awesome, is actually what our like nickname for him was before we had a name. And, and then and I at that time, I owned an art gallery and teaching studio. So everybody at the gallery in the studio. I mean, everybody was just so excited about this new life, you know, new life, like everybody's so excited about it. And so I think then, I'm here he was already like a big part of my creative process I was doing these watercolor is when I really started painting and watercolor. And I did this whole kind of, like creative series about a little boy and a bunny rabbit costs known as a little boy and a bunny rabbit, and they just like went on these adventures and these watercolor paintings, and I don't know, I just I kind of maybe this sounds really weird, but I felt like he was like, you know, this little life in me like, you know, I don't know, I don't know how to put it into words. But like, kind of we were co creating these things. And then yes, after he passed away, I mean, it just shattered my whole existence. There was just, it was so incredibly unexpected. I just I don't even know. Like, I it was one of those things where I didn't even really understand stillbirth was a thing. You know what I'm saying? Like living in this western culture. I just assumed like, we were gonna get pregnant, we're gonna have this baby we had. Like I said, everybody was so excited about the baby, I had three baby showers thrown for beer, like celebrations of life type of things. You know, we had like, like, I wasn't wanting to, like, need to set up a nursery or do any of that stuff. But we definitely were in that like nesting, preparing, so excited to be with this little person. And yeah, and then just one morning, I woke up and actually, at night before I went to bed, I had like, massive fetal movement. I remember because my mother lived in California at the time, and I was like, trying to video my belly. So I could like send it to her and be like, Oh, the baby's going wild, you know. And then the next morning, when I woke up, there wasn't much movement. And James who is very, like, conscious of what's going on, he's in like, in the mornings, you know, we would often like lay there and he would have his hands on my stomach and like, feel the baby moving or whatever, and even comment, he was like, oh, maybe it's really still this morning. And I was like, Yeah, Miss I just sleeping or stuff that he was really, I think even said he was like real wild last night. And then as the day progressed, I still like wasn't feeling any movement. And so didn't know I didn't want to like freak, it just didn't seem like it just didn't seem like how could this what is happening, you know, and then then by the afternoon, I just, I was actually watching one of my friends, kids, like they were at a soccer game, and I guess it was like babysitting them or whatever. And I was sitting there. And I had like, you know, they demonstrate to do the kick counts, and you know that I was like, Okay, I'll get up and I'll go watch the kids and I'll like drink a big glass of orange juice, and he'll definitely be moving around by them. And so I'm sitting like, at the soccer field, and I still didn't have the field with it. And it was so strange. It was like, right about the time that I had decided that I was going to have to call the midwife and say like, I feel like something's wrong. I need to have this checked out. James called me and he said, I feel like something's wrong. Are you okay? And I just like broke down. I was like, I don't know. I don't know what's going on. Like feels really weird. I think I'm gonna go up to the office and have them check things out. And I was you know, because of that like, just Like blissful naivety I think I was like you don't have it's Friday afternoon like, you don't have to worry about coming with me. I'll just go by myself. I'm sure everything's fine. You know, he's like, No way. I'm definitely coming with you come home and pick me up. And we'll go out there. And we drove over there. And yes, she did the sonogram. And like, I don't know, if legally, she couldn't tell me or if she just didn't want to, or whatever was, but she was like, Oh, this machine isn't very good. Let's just go to the hospital. And it's just like, I knew I just knew. But like, what? I don't know. I mean, it's just like, even now like saying it's like, such as just a surreal a shocking experience. It was the day before my birthday, which even sounds like maybe selfish but weird, right? And I just remember being like, This is so weird. I have to go to my birthday party tomorrow, like how was this like that, like, out of body out of mind experience. So we got to the hospital. And they did a sonogram and you know, is just so weirdly an impersonal where they're like, Okay, that's, you know, shutting down a machine is like, there's what the baby's heartbeat supposed to be, there's no heartbeat. And I'm just like, I'm gonna do I don't know, I just like, I was like, I just was like, I gotta go to the bathroom. Like, got up in the bathroom, and just like laid on the floor and was just didn't know you know what to do. And then it was just a weird deal of like days, where they, I mean, this is why I'm so thankful for medical intervention, right? Because in the past, like, you would just have to wait. And he was a four and a half pound baby, like he was a fully full, I mean, he could have been born and lived, if we would have known whatever had like, we still don't really know for sure what happened to him. So we had to go through all of that. And induction and it took a couple days of like, I they tried to induce me and then didn't work. So I had to go home. And then I had to go back to the hospitals and find like this form. And there's just so much like, I think that like we're learning about this type of grief, because our society has gone so far away from the I mean, it's like, it feels like so unnatural, right for the children to die before the parents and things like that. But so they were they had, um, they have volunteers that will come and take photographs. So they had some A, and at the time, I'm like, I don't want any of this. I remember one nurse coming into the room and being like, she said something I can't remember verbatim, but something about, you know, what a beautifully handsome baby we had. And I just wanted to like screaming her face and be like, Yeah, except for He's not breathing. Yes. You know, he looks like baby doll. But he isn't alive, you know. And so I really thought it they are pretty adamant at least at this hospital that the parents should like see the baby and hold the baby, I guess they have figured out has something to do with you know, the way our brains process the trauma later. And I was really, I was really reluctant like I just I think I was in such deep shock right? I was still very much in the life this is a real you know, if I don't maybe if I don't see it, it will be real. But they did they got me to hold them and it was sweet. My my baby shower that the people from the Art Gallery through for me, they had made me this beautiful quilt that everybody had like drawn pieces like they had drawn on each square, and then somebody who made quilts like sewed it all together. So we had like, wrapped him up in that. And that was what he was cremated in which I think kind of helped me feel a little bit better. Like he was like, you know, like, wrapped in love. And yeah, and then. And then after we came home. I mean, I was just incapacitated, I was absolutely essential. I still don't really know how my gallery just didn't close down. And to be real honest with you. I didn't literally I mean, in retrospect, I realized, like spent the next two years like trying to burn into the ground. Like, I don't know how anybody dealt with me. I mean, I was such a like, post traumatic stress, fight or flight. Like, I just I don't even I don't even I wonder still. I mean, I have really good friends I guess. And that's why they're so my friends. But I was just like, a ball of just like fear and anger and confusion. And I just at one point, I finally realized it was like my life has become, I just want to get through the day so I could get back into my bed. And like not deal with life like that. That was like there's about a two year period. And it deeply affected my art. But at the same time, it was art that brought me through it, it was journaling. I did so much journaling, I would go to this park, which at the time I had dubbed my sadness park and I would just sit and cry and drink coffee and journal and throw watercolor paint on things and I mean, it's nothing that's profound or that I would ever want to really like show other people but for me, that journaling process really like helped me kind of move through the process. And then I think the other thing that was so incredibly difficult for me is I have been teaching art as almost as long as I've been making art in In some facet or another, like I really deeply care about that, like the transfer and passing down of the knowledge and I had such a strong aversion to being around children, I've always like I have a very childlike behavior yummy. You see with my Marionette dolls, like I just, I love hanging out with children, I love their overall just pleasantness and wildness and, and creativity and lack of self doubt. But then all of a sudden, I just, I just didn't I mean, being around children was so incredibly painful for me, I just, I couldn't do it, it was a very, very strange, difficult feeling. And I think it's something like it will never like, he will always be present. And he will always be a part of our family. And it's something that will has changed who I am, and I will always be this different version of myself now because of it. But then we had, you know, eventually we had a happy, you know, turn of events, and Everett was born. And then not really, I mean that. I think him being born as much as like no child can ever replace another child is him being born really was a lot of healing for me. And then I didn't even realize it. But then when Arthur was born, so many years later, I think even more I was able to be present and really like, come to a greater level of peace, where it's not like I don't you know, I don't know if you've ever suffered with PTSD. But it is just, I didn't even understand I had before on my diet. I never really experienced panic attacks or anxiety or anything like that. And so it was just earth shattering for me all of a sudden, to kind of have my mind just working against me all the time. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, it's a heavy story. That's, but it's like in our life and death. Yeah. And I think like, like we spoke about before we started recording, I think it's, it is so valuable, if people can share their stories for other people to be able to hear it and relate to it. And, you know, maybe, I think I just think the more we talk about things more, we normalize things like the PTSD, like the grief, you know, any sort of mental illness, like, you know, I talked to a lot of moms with postnatal depression, I experienced that myself, anxiety, I think the more we just are able to talk about it, the more it becomes a part of life that is normal, like because it is a normal part of life. But then there's this part of society that makes us go, oh, no, no, no, no, you can't talk about that. We don't want to hear about that. Yeah, you just had a new baby, you should be so happy you should be. You should be having all of these experiences. Why are you not happy? What is wrong with you that you're not celebrating this? You know? And it just really, yeah, it's a horse really takes away from, like, what's really happening with us? And I think I always think of it as like, if I had my leg chopped off, people would treat me in a certain way, right? Like not like, like, like, I would no longer be able bodied. And there are things going on. And I think when people are going through extreme emotional duress and trauma, because it's not a visible thing. I mean, sometimes I wish that I had a shirt that would be like, I've been traumatized. You probably want to give me some space. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And yeah, this this thing about it being in your head, you know, is it real? Is it not real? Because people can't see it, you know, all that kind of questioning from from outsiders, instead of just trusting that we like that, that, that we're having a hard time and that it's hard. And that's okay. I think that's the other thing, too, like, I find so much now in my conversations with people like around the holidays and different times, you know, when we're supposed to feel a certain way. And I'm so much of a place is like, I hope you're happy today. And if you're not, that's okay, too. You know, these are even with the kids, you know, my two year old right now is very much into like, you hurt my feelings. I'm angry at you, you know, and then it's like, my, I feel like my mom always wants to kids like not to ever be angry and not in and I'm like, we just need to bail in my opinion. let their emotions be seen and validated. Okay, I hear that you're angry with me? Do you want to talk to me about why you're angry? Or do you want some time to think you know, like, we're all going to be angry, we're going to be sad. We're going to have these negative feelings sometimes. But also, we don't have to say that's what I feel like, for myself. Like, I was in such a horrible, dark, sad, sad place. But I didn't stay thank God. I didn't stay there forever. Right? Like I came. And I think even if I hadn't had children, eventually I would have come out of that place. But grief takes time. And people need to allow others to have the time and not be like when are you going to be better? When are you No? Yeah. Well, when are you going to be how you used to be? Well, I'm never going to be how I used to be a new version new season. No experiences, just let me you know, if you think that I need to be that same person, we probably aren't going to be that person. So now Yeah, that's so true. And there is no time limit because people experience everything so differently. You know, it's just there is no and see that 100 I feel like the, if you're not an I don't want to this is a big generalization now. But if you if you're not an artist, if you're, you know, an academic who's an accountant, or, you know, someone that thinks very rationally and straightforward about things, your PhD in chemical engineering. Yeah, yeah, this expectation that when you do this, this and this, you will get this outcome, and everything has a method that's been done before, and you know, what's going to happen? And it's like, no, all this stuff has its own way of happening in its own time. And there's no right or wrong. And I think that can be really hard for some people to, to get their heads around. Because it's so different to the way that they used to experiencing life. Yeah, they want it to be a formula. Grief isn't, you know, now? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I definitely don't wish that experience on anyone. And I still, I mean, every day, I wish that he was here. And I wonder always, you know, what, what would the other boys like? Like, what would Everett's life be like, as a middle child with an older sibling, I have a nephew who is three months older than Conrad would be. And so when and we live close to them, and so whenever I see them all together, I just, it's you know, I'm always in my peripheral kind of imagining him in those moments, you know, and how much it would change the dynamic of our of our lives. With your six year old and your two year old, being a mother has changed the way you approach your work and all your outcomes how you expect these things? Yeah. Is that is that all moms and all career things I can remember I have a really good friend too. She's a painter. And we got we we actually became friends she had to, she had two baby girls that died in utero. And so that kind of like, is like how, like, we became friends with the arts. But then when we realized we had this shared experience it like, you know, was someone to go through that hard time with that was having similar social reactions, if that makes sense. Like, like, when once we did both get pregnant again, neither of us wanted any baby things. Like I did not want any baby things in my home until there was a baby in the home, right? And I remember my mother in law was like, so distraught about this and, and but then I had Anna and she was like, no, she was having the same feelings. I'm like, this isn't irrational, right? But I can remember we got pregnant with our boys who were born three days apart. And we would go to we lived like down the road from each other. So we would go on these morning blocks a lot. And we would spend all this time talking about how when we had our children are living babies, it was not going to change the way that our careers were going. And we were definitely going to make sure that we set aside time and we had all these, you know, I always joke that, like, pregnant moms are the best moms because we're so delusional about what the reality of being a parent is really going to be like, right? We're just so dreamy about what it is. And then going through the experience. She has three boys now living and yeah, I mean, both of us. We talk she lives in Japan right now. And we we tried to Skype, you know, for awhile, it was like every week, but we you know, we tried to talk pretty regularly and we kind of already each other's like, supports system of like, you'll get back in the studio again, soon, you know, where we have a journal that we like, send back and forth to each other to just kind of like, keep it going. Because yes, having kids, it takes so much time and energy, you know, so with the other two boys and especially like over COVID When I was like the old, you know, the main person, I never imagined as a parent, that I would be with my children 24/7 I always imagined that I would have more external babysitters, and family members and people that could be there with the kids too, because I just think it's important for their development. You'll see how other people navigate the world, not just me and my husband. So yeah, it really I mean having the children well, to be honest with you. I closed the Galerie down after Edward was born, he was like, four months old. I can just remember James, I would have, you know, I would go into work and relieve him. James has always worked from home. So like at home with the baby, and then he'd be calling me at work. And I can hear ever like crying in the background, he's like, I can't get him to take this bottle. I don't know what to tell you, I don't bottle feed them, I nursed him, I don't know how to give him a Bob, you know. And I can just remember one point sitting in the gallery and just being like the two people that I love the most in the world or at home suffering. Because I want to do this thing. And maybe I'm a creative person, maybe I can just think of another way to do this, that works better for my family. And so that's when I made the decision that I would get a different house and that I would move the studio into the house and be more focused on the parenting thing for right now. I mean, my first, you know, 12 or 13 years of being an artist were very driven, eating, sleeping, dreaming about our all the time. But I think after Conrad dining, and not getting to experience his life, more than those nine months that I was pregnant with him, I just wanted to I do want to be with my kids as much as I possibly can. And especially in these little years. I mean, it gets exhausting, I'm not trying to glorify it, you know, when you're trying to go to the bathroom, and their fingers are under the door, and you're just like, you're so worn down and exhausted, I definitely have a lot of those moments too. But I just, they're not going to need me this, I already see it right, like the six year old, like he does not need me nearly as much. And there's going to be a time when they don't want to come climb in the bed with me and they don't want to snuggle me and there's gonna change. And so I think that like, I have been willing to put a lot of my studio time on hold, so that I can be with them. And that it's been a pretty conscious decision. I mean, my husband, I kind of go back and forth about it. Like if I'm going to take on a big commission like I do. Some production work for like historic Pensacola like art gallery, gift shops. And a lot of times those will be like a lot, a lot of pieces that all consistently have to be the same, like relatively same size and shape. And that is not something I'm really good at, like that type of precision. And also working on any deadline with kids is really hard. So that's when we kind of like go like now at before ever I take any larger Commission, we kind of look at both of our schedules and say like, is this something that I can realistically do? And we we definitely try to value a time over money. Like we're in a comfortable position where like, you know, our our we have a decent house, we couldn't get enough food. And so we would prefer to spend less, you know, more time family time and have less money. That'd be like rushing around and fighting the clock and, you know, making it more difficult for the kids because at the end like it just stresses us all out if we don't if we try to cram too many things in not enough time. Absolutely. And yeah, it impacts everyone then doesn't it just stay home and how everyone's feeling about life? I think that's like as a as a parent. And as an artist like that is one of the hardest things, right? Because especially I feel like a big part of my happiness is tied into my creative time. Right? So that's the mental conversation they have internally, it's not always 100% About the money either. It's about like I gain, like this is where being an artist and like the financial aspect, like all that stuff gets so intermingled and weird, right? Because there is some like, personal fulfillment that comes out of creating those things, too. And like, how do you put a value on that? Oh, yeah, that's a big one. I've found the last few people that I've spoken to, for the podcast, this, this value has come up a lot this this concept of how society values places value on something, and it's just so money driven. It's all about the money. It's like, if you can't sell that and have $1 figure attached to it, then it's less value than you know, I really frustrates me. Yeah, conversation and I think that maybe because I own the gallery, and oh my gosh, when I first opened the gallery, it was quite ridiculous. I might not have had the best business plan ever. And we had like a 200 square foot revolving gallery that changed about every other month and then like a retail space that sold all like kind of local handmade goods and then a very large art studio and like teaching studio. And I hadn't really done the math on how much money I needed the revolving gallery to make I don't know why I originally just thought about it kind of as this fun experimental art space like coming out of New York and coming back down here like I really wanted that right. But very quickly, I realized that like we have to have something that we can sell like, it's really cool for someone to like come in here and hang a bike from the ceiling and paint a mural on the wall and do like whatever the thing is that they're feeling at the time. But if we don't have something to sell, then then how am I going to keep the space open and like riding that line right between like commodification, and just expressing ourselves and being. So that's where James and I have come to a place now, where when I'm coming up with some because I've done some wild projects, like after the BP oil spill, I've made this thing called the SOS security blanket, which was like a community art project around pollution. And there's no way that's making any money, like it totally was just like a heart project that I needed to do to process what had happened to our, our land to our you know, our environment. And so that's what so that's something else that him and I look at together is like, how much time like do you think this is going to take? And like, is this something that you're doing because of your love? Or your need of expression? Or is it something that's going to make money, and it's nice to kind of have that partition, right, and it's a freedom to be able to say like, well, I'm going to do this project, even if nobody pays any attention to it. And I'm just doing it for me, I'm doing it, but I'm going to do these other things, you know, to sell in this gallery, or to sell in this gift shop or to you know, for this coffee shop, or whatever I'm doing afford, and that's where the money is going to come from. Hmm. So it's a it's a good balance. Yeah, yeah. Did you find in your previous conversations like that people are saying, like, they want to do things. And but they feel like they can't because? Because if you can't make money off of it, then it's not worth the time. Yeah, not so much they can it the judgment that other people place on them for choosing to do that. Or, you know, an example that I give, I can't remember now, and it's really bad. But one of the mums I spoke to back in season one, she had her mother in law, right was babysitting her sister in law's child, and would do that quite happily, because the mum was going to work and act like a day job, right? In an office doing whatever. But she wouldn't babysit her children, because mom was just fluffing about doing her art. Right? So that judgment that comes, you know, that's not a serious job. That's, you know, that's not a real job, you're just fluffing about it's like, is that how society really sees creatives? Like, how bad is the first you know? And I think it kind of even goes back to the early part of this conversation with like, form or function, right? Like how people view the worth of what we do. But in the end of the day, like, if it worked for us creatives, what would we have? Who would design the cars who designed the computers? Who would make the television programs and like every night clean? Everything is the world that we live in? I don't know, how has it come to this valued the thing? I have said this many times in these podcasts. So apologies if you've heard this story before, but in Australia during COVID with the lock downs, right? We had, the movement between the states was quite limited. You weren't allowed across the borders, it was really quite full on it was, you know, probably a bit much to be honest. But football teams were Australian rules football, right? They were allowed to cross borders, they were allowed to go and play football wherever they wanted. But it was ridiculous, you know, and it was all the arts was shutting down. People couldn't go on tours with their, you know, bands, music, whatever, that was all shut down. But these these footballers, could just go do whatever they liked. And it just really showed the stark division in our culture. And I've talked to other people around the world and similar things, you know, sport is way up here. And that's again here, but it's like, who's making all the shows that you're watching while you're in lockdown? Who's creating content? Who's, like you said, physically designing cars and building houses and, like everything you can touch and see and feel has been made by somebody creative. You know, I think society just just makes me like get on this bandwagon. It makes me so good. It's legitimate, right? And I mean, football is like fun or whatever, you know, like people enjoy it. It's good to be healthy. But what what is that really contributing towards society? I don't know if that sounds like a shallow unappreciative thing, but I personally am not really into sports. Like that's not something that I enjoy. But I also don't see like what service are they, you know, what, you know, what they were doing? They were making money. It was money, you know, all the, the advert the advertising, people that pay to have their, you know, on the shows, you know, all that sort of that commodity driven, that's what it was, and they had to keep that going at the expense of everything else. And, I mean, that's very much like the same COVID politics here. It's really for me, makes me think that we need to have some kind of universal income or that guaranteed income, right like if We had something that was like, you just had like a basic living wage, right where like everybody has enough to like, be close, because that's what I've noticed. Like, there was a time when James and I, like we had no money, we were living so far below the poverty line. And it was such a struggle. And we're both very creative people who are driven and want to contribute to society. And beyond all of these, all of these great ideas. I'm trying to think of, do you know the program? FreshBooks? Oh, no. Oh, it's like, it's like a, it's like a program to help you with your bookkeeping and stuff like that. So my husband before that was a program when I was like, starting my gallery, you know, he had the idea to make a program like that, but he had to, like, you know, be so driven to make money to spend so much of his like, mental bandwidth on how to make money to like, get gas in our cars, and he thinks that there was no space to do these things that could be really beneficial to society. And so that's what I keep thinking, like people like, oh, people are gonna be lazy and just hang out and do drugs and blah, blah, they have guaranteed income. And like, look, there's already people that are lazy, and do drugs and are just hanging out. So why don't you give the rest of us and the majority of people I think, want to do something to entertain themselves. I mean, I don't think people would just sit around and be so lazy, right. And the people that are creatively driven, would then be able to really manifest so much more of what they're capable of, instead of just like running in that wheel of making money. Yeah. In Ireland, I think I saw something not long ago that they, they going to have a living wage for artists. So they're going to get a certain amount of money. I don't know if it's per month, or per week. And I was like, That is amazing. Because just the creativity is just going to explode. Like, you know, people with no limitations. What are they gonna make? It's gonna be amazing, you know? Yeah, yeah. Well, hopefully, we'll move there. That was one of the things I was hoping out of COVID that people would see is like, it's interesting how we can all not go to work. And that means the economy isn't what does the economy even me? Like, it's really just like a made up? Like, it's a system that human beings have made up? Who maybe we should try to make a better system that works for everybody instead of like a minority of people. Hmm, absolutely. That's getting off topic now. But my husband, my husband's a financial planner, so we are incredibly different mindsets, right, like, so different. Tonight. Yeah. And so during COVID, they all of them had to work remotely. They're all at home, whatever, if they had a conference, they do it all online, on Zoom, whatever. And then this week, they've announced that they, they want them to go like interstate to go to this big conference. And I said, why? Like, just because you can now why go back to normal like, you not only like, what does the environment, you know, the cost of plane, the plane travel? You know, like, why? We've shown that we can do it without it. What? Why are we learning from this? Yeah, I think it's some people are, you know, it's just maybe a slow transition. I don't know. I think I'm forever an optimist to like, I want to believe that we're getting we've gotten something out of out of this difficult time. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I agree with that. You touched on earlier about your feeling when you're in the gallery and you had your husband on the phone trying to give the bottle and things weren't working. And you had that moment where you went, you know, the two most important people in my life are there and I'm here that sort of I don't want to put words in your mouth but like that, that guilt sort of creeping in trouble. Yeah, it was. Mum Mum gives us a topic that I asked all my guests about. Can you share sort of your thoughts about put it in air quotes? Monkey? Oh, cuz it's like a construct to think about? Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think it doesn't matter what your career is. Right? Like as a woman, it's a strange thing like the post feminist woman like we're no we're we're still expected to be these amazing moms. Keep a good house. Not look like a big mess. Right and like show up for everybody all the time. And I think it does create a huge amount of guilt. We're like, we are never enough. There are never enough hours in the day for us to do all of the things for all the people and then I think the more than anything we don't like do There's no value on recharging for ourselves, right? Like, it's almost like a like this weird luxury like, Oh, you're gonna go have quiet time for yourself for an hour. And that's a priority for your life. What about your dishes? You know, and it doesn't create this, like, very uncomfortable level of guilt. And it's like, Well, why don't you ask my husband about the dishes? Because he's a partnership. You know, like, I mean, he is great. Like, I'm not dissing on him at all. Like, he is an amazing 100%. Like, we are partners, we both do all the things, but like, from people looking in, right, whatever that social guilt is that social structure guilt, societal guilt of like, it doesn't matter how much we do, it is never ever enough. Yeah, I think that it caused me something, there's definitely days that I like, I'm in my pottery studio, and I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna set a timer. And the kids have like, their 45 minutes of screen time that they can have. And I'm going to do X amount of projects, and then that timer goes off, and I ignore it, the kids are happily in there with their screen time. And I'm just like, in the zone, and so happy. But then I come out of the zone. And I'm so guilt ridden. I'm like, Oh, they watched an extra hour of TV, you know, and just really write myself, but then I'm like, Oh, my gosh, what's an extra hour TV to me being refreshed, and able to be more present with them? And I think that that's like how I'm trying to navigate the mom guilt. But it is. It is real, and it is hard. And it it just it makes doing everything difficult, right? Like I want to say being a creative difficult, but it's not just being a creative, right? It's just that like, constant need to make sure that your kids are in the right schools, your kids are playing the right sports or doing the right extracurricular activity, or I don't even know and I don't know what, like you were saying before about like, some people just want a formula, you know, or like a way like to know what to do. And sometimes I feel like that is a mom and like, I wish you could just I guess they do right? They say like the pediatric recommended recommendation for hours of free time, right? I don't. I don't know what the answer is. But yes, definitely. struggle with it so much. And sometimes I have a studio assistant that comes and helps me sometimes. And she also has a small child. And she came in the other day. And Arthur was like, in a diaper in my studio, sitting in a chair with the iPad, like prop of the stool in front of it. And she was like, Oh my gosh, it's so refreshing to see that this is how you get things done. And I'm like, Yeah, I guess maybe I should put more of that, like on social media. I think that that's always the hard thing, too. That creates a lot of guilt within us, right as we have these very meticulously cure. I mean, I don't, I would not, say a meticulously curate my, via social media, but like, it's not like I want it to be a snapshot of the reality of my life. But I definitely am not taking pictures of my kid in my underwear with like, boogers all over it. Watching his iPad, like eating pirate booty, you know? I mean, maybe we should do that. Maybe we should do that more. I don't know. I mean, it's not beautiful. It doesn't fit into that. It's the gram. But that's the thing, too. I think so many times. I know personally, I've taken a photo of a similar sort of situation, like I'm trying to record something. So I've got the kids doing something, whatever it is. And I'll hesitate posting because I think the amount of people that are going to judge me for that, that don't know, my, that aren't in my home. And I think for a second I think Oh, bugger. Um, and then I think, no, because how I don't know, I just can't wear it. You know what I mean? I I'm not ready for I suppose. judging me judgment is real. And it doesn't feel like I think that's it like the mom guilt is feeling like we're not adequate. Like, we're suddenly to the people that we love the most in the world. We're somehow damaging them or like not doing good enough for them. Right. And so the idea that some stranger is going to kill him, and he's going to say that to you. It's like, yeah. Oh my gosh, that just heightens that inner voice that somehow I'm not doing this, right. Absolutely. Or I'm not doing it well enough. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe we need to have some kind of like, social media space. It's like, like, what was that? Oh, I think it was like a Pinterest fails or something like one of those. Like, some grandparenting disaster thing where like, we all just like put the reality. You know, here's my kid, like covered and whatever, do something crazy. We could just be honest, without fear. Yeah, without the fear of judgment. Judge freezone Yeah, yeah. Yeah. First, yeah, another thing that frustrates me and then I frustrate myself because I think why am I letting other people that I don't know. You know, I do know a lot of people that I follow but a little follow me a lot of people I don't know, why am I letting that worry me? Why don't I just like, the way I approach my music is like, I'll make my music for me, right? I don't make it for anyone in Most people are going to love it, there's people that aren't going to love it. But that doesn't affect the way that I make my music. I just do it because I want to. So why don't I have the rest of my life like that? You know, it's like, maybe because it's so? I don't know, because it affects you, like you said, it's you're talking about the people that you love the most, and you try to do the best for them. So if someone then brings to your attention that perhaps, maybe you shouldn't be doing this, you're like, oh, no, I'm ruining my children, you know, because it affects somebody else. It's harder to do. Yeah. And I feel like the way you're describing creating is also my same process, right? Like, it's this weird, like, I'll get like, the spark of an idea. And then it's like, I'm like, I want to, like, I want to see it manifested or maybe for you, like you want to hear it like in this three dimensional world. And so it's like, spending this time to, like, bring it forward from a very, from like, a complete non existence into the world, right. And I don't know what the kids is like, they're already here. And they're already like, throwing tantrums sometimes and why, like, they definitely do things that I mean, my children regularly do things that make me question like, am I somehow doing this wrong? So then I think when someone you know, when someone has the audacity to tell me that I'm doing it wrong, because they saw some picture that I thought I was funny that I put on Instagram, it really? Yeah, it makes me question more. And I think, I don't know, I'm definitely no parenting expert. But I think no matter what happens, everybody experiences some kind of trauma in their life. So it doesn't matter. Like how good of a parent we tried to be or how, you know, wonderful. We tried to make everything for our kids like they're, they're going to run into bullies or difficult times, you know, so I don't know. Yeah, somehow we have got to let go of I'm gonna think about that. More like that idea of like being the perfect parent and why? Or maybe the perfect isn't even my work. But what is it that causes that guilt? Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's something for us to think about. Yeah, to get to the root of it, because maybe if we can understand it, we can stop feeling it so much. Yeah, you know, absolutely. That's good. We've had a bit of syrup. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, there was a joke. At one point in my pottery studio, they were like, oh, pottery, Mercedes, it's cheaper than therapy. And I was like, you guys, I'm gonna have to raise my prices. Because I don't know if I could be handled via your therapist, and your pottery teacher. That's a lot of pressure. A lot of pressure. Moving back to your, your art and your work. Have you got anything coming up in the future that you want to share about or anything that you've got work you're working on now that you want to give a bit of a plug? Tell us what you're up to. Well, I don't I mean, I have a lot of ideas in the works but I don't have anything like for sure dates. Like I was saying earlier, I'm hoping that the fall of this year to have a show together a full body of work around the marionettes but I'm not 100% Sure but that like that is what's in what I'd like crafting in my mind for my next like big group work. And then I'm currently working on a series that will just go into retail shops that is something that I tend to touch on almost every spring which is kind of like botanical themed pieces. So I've been creating these I'm calling them plates but it's not like it's like a printer's plate not like a plate that you would eat off of. So I'm pushing the flowers into the clay and then I'm gonna use those to like make the plates off of I've got a few of them I think I might have posted them on my interest Instagram, but I'm going to do a whole spring collection around like that there's so it'll all be like you know, things that are in bloom right now on bowls and plates and probably some planters so usually I tried to do a spring collection in the fall collection so that and that main relief will be like online, through artists on a boutique, but I don't have a date or anything like that, that yet. And then during COVID I started folding the 1000 paper cranes. Again, it's a second time that I've done it and I'm about I think about a little over 400 in so I'm hoping I'm still not sure how what that is going to manifest into other than like I did it you know, I don't know if you know the story of the 1000s papercraft as I can ask you. Yeah, so it's a it's a Japanese tradition that I think I don't know where it really originated, but a lot of the stories that you hear revolve around the Hiroshima Like the bombing of Hiroshima, and the the people trying to heal after that. So the idea is the person that folds 1000 origami cranes, like it's like a meditation and a wish for something. And so people didn't really people that are ill, or people that are getting married, things like that the 1000 frames for them. So during COVID, I decided, I think it was like during the second wave or something like that, that I was going to fold it for, like, you know, the end of like, for a healing for our world for COVID. And also like for my COVID anxiety because I think that cry crafting a just moving my hands really helps me just deal with that like anxious energy. So anytime I would feel really overwhelmed about something to do with COVID, I would just like pull the crane pull the crane. So I'm not sure. I may do some kind of installation with that after the fact that haven't 100% decided where those credits are going to end up. But so far. So that's another project that I'm currently in the works on. But nothing was solidified. Because that's one of my things as like with the being a parent and an artist. I tried not to give myself very many deadlines. Because that that if you're stressed out, and not a very good parent, or artists. Yeah, that's it. It's hard to do anything with that sort of pressure over your head, and then you everything suffers because you like you can't stop being a parent. And you can't stop being an artist. But sometimes they can't work at the same time. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Yep, I love that. This has been a nice talk. Oh, it's been awesome. I really enjoyed. I've really, really enjoyed talking to everybody, because I enjoy talking to everybody. But I've really, really enjoyed talking to you. It's been really lovely. Yeah, well, what a great job to get to talk to artists about art, you know, and that's what we love. It's so good. Oh, yeah. Well, thank you for doing this. I mean, I think it's so good for the global mom, community for all of us. You know, it really, it's, it's lovely to like be in the studio and just listening to other artists like talk about how they do it and get ideas, you know, yeah, that's it. A lot of people have said that, actually, it's really good to hear how the people are doing it. And it's just reassuring to hear that we're all in the same boat. Like it's just, we're all gone through that evacuation. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Edwina Masson Australian vocal loops artist S3 Ep88 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Edwina Masson is my guest this week, a musician and mum of one based on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia. Edwina was born in Brisbane and moved 5 states before she was 10 years old. She didn't have a lot of stability in her home location but her constant was the music that she listened to as a family, Paul Kelly, Led Zeppelin, The Who, Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. Edwina credits this time as the reason she gravitates towards music to cope with stress and emotions. She started composing music in year 5 on Garage Band, and began to develop a love for harmony. During high school she was music captain and sang, played clarinet and double bass. After high school she decided she was going to be a singer, much to the surprise of her family, and went on to study performing arts at university, and lectured also. Edwina describes her musical style as a vocal loops artist. She creates songs with many, many layers, using her voice as the instrument. and creating emotionally dense music which goes on a journey and often without lyrics. While Edwina was experiencing a traumatic pregnancy in 2020 and 2021 she began searching for music that would support her experiences, and couldn't find it. Edwina began to write music that she need to get though, initially only meant for her, but on realising that others could benefit from it in 2022 Edwina released the album Birth of A Mother. It's the music she wishes she had accessible to her at the time of being pregnant. Edwina has recently created the Live Loops Choir in the Noosa Hinterland, a non audition, any ability singing group to be able to create the music she loves in a live setting. If you are in the neighbourhood check it out, link below. This episode contains mentions of hyperemesis gravidarum, birth trauma, post natal depression, miscarriage and traumatic early childhood. Edwina - instagram / live loops choir / music Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Edwina throughout the episode When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. It is a pleasure to have you here from wherever you're listening around the world. My guest this week is Edwina Masson. a tweener is a musician and a mum of one based on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia. That duaner was born in Brisbane, and she moved around five states before she was 10 years old. It was these changes in location and schools that created the instability in her life. But the constant was the music that she listened to with our family. Musicians like Paul Kelly, Led Zeppelin, the WHO Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. Edwina credits this time as the reason she gravitates toward music to cope with stress and changes in emotions. She started composing music when she was in year five, using GarageBand and began to develop a love of harmony. During high school she was Music captain, and she sang play clarinet and double bass. After high school she decided she was going to be a singer, much to the surprise of her family. And she went on to study Performing Arts at uni and also became a lecturer at Duany described describes her current musical style as a vocal loops artist. She creates songs with many, many layers, sometimes up to 50, using her voice as the instrument and creating emotionally dense music, which goes on a journey and often without lyrics. While Edwina was experiencing a particularly traumatic pregnancy in 2020 and 2021, she began searching for music that would support her experiences, and she couldn't find it. So Edwina began to write music, the music that she needed to get through, initially only meant for herself, but on realizing that others could benefit from it too. In 2022, Edwina released the album, Birth of a mother, it's the music that she wishes she had accessible to her at the time of being pregnant. Dwayne has also recently created the live loops choir in the Noosa hinterland and non audition, any ability singing group to be able to perform the music she loves in a live setting. And if you're in the neighborhood, I encourage you to check it out. I've put the link in the show notes. Today's episode does get quite full on at times, just letting you know that it contains mentions of a traumatic pregnancy and birth and postnatal depression and also mentions of miscarriage. Throughout this episode, you'll hear snippets of a Dwayne his music, particularly from the album birth of a mother and I encourage you to check it out to again, the links in the show notes. It's just beautiful music and it just soothes your soul. No matter what stage you're in. Whether you are a new mother pregnant, or you've got kids that are 15 years old, it really speaks to all of us. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're gonna love this episode, and take care do doo doo doo doo doo doo doo Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Yeah, it's absolutely my pleasure. It's lovely to put a face to the sounds like I mean, I've seen you on Instagram, obviously, but to speak to you, after listening to, to your incredible music. It's really, really lovely to meet you. Oh, that's so that's so sweet. I get that. You know what, I actually get that more often than you think. Because other people listen to my music. And I don't actually, it's really interesting as a musician, like you put music out and you kind of think that, like, no one's listening to it. And then you just like, it's just for me. And then somebody's like, you're the person and I'm like, Yeah, my music sounds so deep. And then you meet me and you're like, you're a dork. Edwina. Yeah. I love it. That's awesome. Yes. So we're about to you at the moment. Where are you? What in the world are we has a really good question. We are currently on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland in Australia. And we've been here I think for about seven months now. Seven months we've been living here and it's just so beautiful. Yeah, beautiful. I am, we used to come up for a couple of years in a row, we came up to Caloundra for a family holidays. And I just loved it up there. I just loved it. We loved it so much. You went to exactly the same place two years in a row. We just loved it so much. It's like why do we need to go anywhere else? If it ain't broke? Don't fix it. We're in like the kind of like the Noosa hinterland. Oh, yeah. And it's just where it's so beautiful. It's like I spent years just like dreaming about living in like a rainforest. And we do now and it's just, oh, I look out my window every day. And I feel so lucky. So happy to be here yet. Do you have all those? I don't know what sort of birds they are. But I've never heard them because I'm from that Gambia right down south. And there's these birds like they made like a whipping with Yes. Yeah. Like the Lyrebirds. Like the Yeah. And they had like the rainforest bird. Yeah, yeah, that we do have them and you can go out on the balcony first thing in the morning, and you can hear them and it is just like, you are transported to deep rainforest when you hear those birds there. Yeah, we do have them and they are spectacular. Yeah. No, I love that I love. Yeah. And the other thing I remember there being up there was that it got it got light a lot earlier than what it does at home. And so like you'd be woken up with this beautiful bird song. And it was just like, oh my gosh, and then you'd see like, we're staying at the beach at the ocean. It was just like, why did we live where we live? What we need to do here? Yeah, it does. It's like both a blessing and a curse that the sunrise is so early, like the sunrises before five. At the moment, the sun is I can see the sun restarting, like it gets light at like 450. And like, I know that because my child wakes up at that time. So this is before the sun is even, like awakened. My child's like it's going to rise in the next 10 minutes, Mom, I'm ready for it. Like I'm just beating it up, they're ready to give it away when it comes. That's gorgeous. God, it's up to us to keep them I can see how close you are. So you're a singer, songwriter, performer? How did you first get into music? Wow, it's a great question. I grew up moving a lot. So I was born in Brisbane. And then we moved to states five times before I was 10. And yeah, and I didn't have a lot of stability and like the home that we were living in or the friends that I had. And so something that was always really constant in my life was the music that we listened to as a family. It was always like Paul Kelly and Led Zeppelin and the who and Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. And that was like such a core memory of stability and safety for me that I think that really had an impact on when I was getting older what I gravitated towards to cope with stress and to cope with emotion. And I think I was about I was about 10 And we had we just moved to Western Australia. And I remember going into year five and singing just like singing in class. And it was the first time that like a kid had told me that I had a good voice and I was like What do you mean, my family told me that I sound like a dying cat. Literally, they would say that and then I had all these kids being like, Oh, you can really sing. And then suddenly I was like oh that's the thing. Like in my mind. It was the thing that set me apart. So my Had I kind of developed a slightly unhealthy attachment to singing for a long time of like it was my entire self worth. Yeah. And I just kept singing. And then when I graduated high school, I was like to my parents, I'm going to be a singer. And like the shock and horror on their faces of oh, dear Lord, how is she gonna make this work? Because they barely knew that I was like a singer. I was always playing clarinet and double bass, but I never told them that I was a singer until the end of year 12, even though I was like Music captain sung in choirs as sung solo at school all the time. Like I just never told them. Oh, by the way, actually sing all the time. Yeah. So image in your head of this dying cat singer. They really had very little clue that I was as good as I was. Yeah. And I remember them. I remember singing at like the highest high school, entire school presentation that at the end of the year at this big old, like theater, and then hearing me really, for the first time seeing was like a 70 person choir behind me. And I remember afterwards and being like, Are you kidding? Like, what do you mean that you have been singing and being taught for like, what? Why didn't you want to tell us and it was like a whole thing of like me just not telling them that I was a singer, because I didn't want them to tell me that I sounded bad. Oh, yeah. So then I Yeah. And so then I went into performing arts university. And that was an experience and then I lectured and yeah, that was kind of how it all started for me. Yeah, right. Something that's really big for you is harmony, which is I love is I've spent so many years of my life two part singing, and I just adore it. When did you first sort of start to recognize harmony as an actual thing, and start to fall in love with it? Well, I started writing instrumental music before I ever started singing. So I was, I was in year five. And my family had just gotten like the first Apple Computer. And I remember GarageBand being on there, and it was free. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you mean I can put like, I can just make music. And I would spend hours on there just like bashing the typing keyboard as like a piano keyboard, just writing different parts and different. And that's when I started really, I had no idea what harmony was, I didn't know what intervals or anything like that was. But I remember, I listened to classical music growing up. And I had listened to such amazing artists that it was already like, clicking inside of my system, or this, this sounds good. And like this does not sound good. And so it was really very young that I started realizing that I loved harmonies, and then I sang in choir in school. And I always just had this obsession with like harmony was the tool that you could use to express emotion and not need words. And that to me when I was growing up was very important because I didn't necessarily want to talk about what I was feeling. Or there wasn't this wasn't necessarily a space for me to be able to talk about how I was feeling. And harmony was this tool that I was able to use to be like, I am feeling angry, or I'm feeling such pain or such joy and not have to actually with words, say those things. So it definitely was like my own form of therapy for many years. Yeah, that's it. I've never actually thought of it that way. But that is so true. It's like it evokes so much in you when you hear these particular, you know, chords and constructs of notes. That's really incredible. Thanks for Thanks for sharing that. So welcome. It was, honestly I remember being like, the melody, like in contemporary singers today. The thing I always talk to my students about is like, your Lyric should only be doing 50% of the work. Your melodies and harmonies that support the lyrics that you're using. should be doing. Like if you took away the lyrics does your melodies actually say anything? And that was the massive thing for me is like I spent so much time being like, How can I communicate how I feel, without ever having to say one word and harmony was such an amazing tool to use. So it was like a low key obsession of mine. Yeah, I'm pleased because you're very, you've got a very it's like an innate natural ability, which I love. I think that's awesome. Because I think sometimes you can't teach that stuff. I know you can. You can actually teach it but just to get it like I had no formal train Writing in harmony. My dad used to listen to a lot of country music. So Johnny Cash, John Java course all male, like male voices, and I have an alto voice, but that's not that low, you know? It's not John. Hello, thankfully. So yeah, I, I developed a way to sing along to the songs in the car, because I couldn't sing the tune in their, in their, in their what is their their vocal range, there's their register in that register, that's what I'm after. And I couldn't sing it up the octave because my voice was too low. So I started to sing harmony, harmony without knowing what it was just to be able to join in and sing the songs because I love the song so much. And that's just did that too. Oh, and it's like, I'd never been taught and I never knew the words for until years later when people started explaining to me or you're singing in thirds, or you're seeing in whatever is and I was like, Well, that's nice. Glad I know what that means. But I had that's cool. What I do, you know, yeah, and it's just it's worked really great because my sister and I have been together for years as a duo. And I just naturally take the harmonies because it's like, you know, it's just there in your body sort of thing and hear some people are much some people's ears are definitely more receptive and perceptive of harmony. And they find it a lot easier to hear for sure in like when I was lecturing, you could really tell the musicians whose ear was more sensitive to harmony. Yeah, it was yeah, it was something that it usually came down to the type of music that they'd listened to growing up. They were listening to music like country music, a lot of country music has a lot of harmony in it. Like particularly a lot of like, country groups. There's a whole bunch of there. It's so harmony dense in regards to like, there'll be three parts singing the melody like Yes, yep. So it is really interesting seeing how the music you grow up with hugely influences where your strength will lie if you are interested in being a musician. Yeah, that's really cool. That's really cool. The other thing I find I do find it frustrating though, because when you've got that ear and you're used to picking nights and hearing things, when you hear something that's not quite right, it really frustrates you are don't even honest to God. It's like it's a blessing and a curse being so trained in music. I honestly, I remember I went through a phase probably when I was at university, and I was studying it for literally like eight, nine hours a day, I was studying music. And it got to a point where I went definitely went through like a snobby snobby vase being like, What do you mean, you're singing flat? And it feels like, it's like, you know, the pee in the mattress? Yeah, like the old storytel. Yeah, yeah, it felt like that I would hear everything and hear something was flat, I would hear if it didn't match up, I would hear if the harmonies weren't falling. Like the same vibrato, like my ear was so trained that I for a while I actually couldn't enjoy a lot of music. Yeah, yeah. And I actually when I remember when I graduated, I actually had to take a step back and be like Edwina, why did you start singing in the first place? Because it wasn't about the academics. Yeah, it was, it was truly about how it made you feel. You just have the tools to express how you feel better now, but like, yeah, I definitely resonate with what you're saying. So I remember listening to other musicians and being like, they caught even saying, like no, I'm not. I don't think that at all now, but I definitely went through that phase. Oh, yeah. Because, like, I often think about the fact that like, if I wasn't as good as I was, I wouldn't be up there. Because I'm so judgmental on myself that, like, I used to have a habit of judging others with the same lens that I judged myself and because they would never level up to what the capabilities of myself I was like, Why do you think you should be up there? So definitely like to that. Yeah, it's it takes a takes a while to unpack it, for sure. So I understand that. Yes. And I personally had to let go of a lot of like jealousy, like, oh, how come they get to do it? I can do this. Why can I do it? And over the years, I've gotten very good at just going you know what, it's not nothing to do with you, Allison, this is this person. This is where they are in their life and their journey and you have no idea where they come from or what they're doing. And I've just gotten really good at like going that's good on them. I'm really pleased for them. That took a little bit. It's really hard as like a musician when for my personal experience when I was studying it was such a competitive environment that you couldn't help like that you weren't told that there was room enough for everybody. Yeah, space existed for everyone. So you would it was like inbuilt in you to become judgmental and to become competitive and to become this. This thing where you believe that you know if you didn't get that opportunity And then you like you were missing out on the break on the on the next opportunity. And I definitely went through that we will literally got ranked when I was at university. Yeah, we would end the top four singers would get all the opportunities. And I was lucky to always be in that top four. But I remember the, like, I remember the levels that I like, how much I work to be in that top four and how I had massive burnout at the end of studying because of it. Yeah. So it definitely like the music industry breeze you for competitiveness, and it actually takes active, unlike undoing to just allow someone to sing and not charge them. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I grew up doing a Stanford's. They used to put me in a sentence from a very young age. And I think it's the worst thing that ever happened to me, because I just think continued to go through life thinking I was being judged all the time all the time. Yep. Yep. Yep, I still work through that stuff. Yeah. And you have an expectation that whatever, whatever this person tells you must be right. Because they're the adjudicator, you know? And it took me took me years until someone said to me, Allison, are you going to let one person's opinion might like, change your opinion of yourself? You're gonna let that one person have that much control over you. And I just went? Yeah, no, that's what I've been doing since I was like, I don't know. Young Child. Yep. Like, and yeah, music is. So beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Every person will like a particular type of music and like a particular type of voice better. So it's really hard. I remember when I was lecturing, how hard it was to mark someone on the skill. Because it's like, I always knew that I had biases to the types of voices that I liked. So I had to really actively be like, Okay, if I take away my own bias, how do they technically like when we're looking at technique? How the technique because there are some vocal tones that I just love, and there are others that I am interested in. So it is a really, that's why studying music and it's so weird. It's so weird. Yeah, yeah, I have memories of like, but just before I set for the started, like the room is room, excuse me, the rumor mill would start up about who's the adjudicator? And what sort of voice Do they like? And then when we knew that they liked surprise all those hours ago, stuff, nice, you know, what we bother, you know, if you could get you down right from the start, you know, you'd go out there just thinking that they're not gonna like me, because they like sopranos, you know? Yeah. So that, that kills a little person's head. And, you know, it took me took me to I was certainly my young adulthood to actually say to myself, You know what, I don't need to do this anymore. Like, yeah, no one's making me do this anymore. Why am I doing this? I'm actually so thankful that I didn't do a lot of those things when I was that young singing was something that was so incredibly like, personal and like, sacred to me from a very young age. And I didn't have singing lessons until I got into performing arts university because of the fact that I was always like, I don't want someone else to take this, this thing that I have, but I was so young, and I recognize that I recognize. Yeah, and then when I started university, I was like, my song, my voice is the audible version of my soul, I will protect it with my life, because it meant so much to me. And I think that's the reason why I didn't want to have singing lessons in high school because I knew someone was going to come in. And like, I was just learning my voice. I was just like, in this point in time where I didn't want to compete for it. I didn't, I just knew, but then I went to university and it was like, wow, like whiplash? Oh, yeah. Suddenly coming into a highly competitive environment. Being so unlike I was on trained, but I was really passionate about it. So I was able to pick things up very quickly. And it went from being a therapy to being a sport. It was it was a real, a real change for me. And it took I wanted to quit so many times because I was like, I don't love this anymore. This isn't why I started singing. Yeah, and I remember just my lecturer who was spectacular, telling me you know, you have to think of these simply as tools that we're trying to teach you so that you can access your therapy even more specific specifically so I can sing with more nuance and I can have more vocal range to communicate how I'm feeling and I had to come back to that so many times because otherwise it just wasn't worth it. It just wasn't worth it. It was like could you you were you really protective of that because you thought people were going to try and change what you had. Well I would listen to people voices change like really change I was like, This is not you have any more or and I came later came to learn a lot about placement and how placement affects tone and, and I would hear singers mimic other singers. And I was like, well, that's no longer you. You're manipulating your placement to sound like someone else. And therefore it means that you're not actually authentically singing your voice and you're like your story. And that was something for really young age that I was like that's, that's I'm not I'm not willing to do that. Yeah, that's actually one of my pet peeves in in singers is people who manipulate their voice to sound a particular way. It just really makes me just, I just think, and then when they successful at that, and then I've got to finish back, you know, I think that's not even you. Yeah. Because, like we go through stages as a society as being told this is the voice like Christina Aguilera. Oh, my gosh, you had millions of young white children, young white females trying to sound black. Yeah, because of Christina Aguilera, Christina Aguilera had multiple vocal health issues because of her terrible technique in her lower part of her range. She can no longer belt as high as she could, because of how she treated her voice. Yeah. So it was definitely I remember being like, I want to be Christina Aguilera. Like when I was when I was really young. And then I was like, well, this hurts. Yes. Yes. Do this. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, definitely. I think about that often. And I just am thankful to the younger version of myself who was really protective of it. Because I probably wouldn't still be singing if I had been in a Stanford because I cannot compete when it comes to voice like I just I can't do it. I can't do it. I used to do piano. And I did one concert and I would never do it again. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it just, it just takes out like you said this. The soul things like it's just, I don't know. It's odd. I hate them. And I, I paint them with a passion. And I wish I mean, I guess it's taught me something. You get something out of it. But yeah, it wasn't that great. But anyway, enough of that. I know there are times when you feel like you can't do it on your own. I promise you, you're God. So tell me about your album that you released last year, which is amazing. Thank you. That was a birth of a mother. Yes. Yes. So I wrote those songs. When I was pregnant with my son in 2020s. Yeah, 2020 I, like started writing songs and 2021. And for me, they literally those songs were only ever meant for me. It was I had a really tough pregnancy. I had hyperemesis gravidarum I had every everything under the sun. When it comes to like side effects. I used to get pregnancy hives, my vocal cords was so swollen because of how much I was throwing up. Yeah, it was the like, it was so dark that period of time. And I remember being like, where is the music that is specifically for someone like myself, like, where's the music that is for someone who is terrified of becoming a mother, even though they want it so much or terrified of birth. I just needed like a, an audible birthing step. Like that's what it felt like to me, I just needed to write these songs to help me feel supported. And so that's what I did. And because I couldn't work because I couldn't. My vocal stamina was so affected by the sickness, I had a lot of time. To slowly record these songs, I listened back to the vocals, like the lead vocals on some of those songs. And I'm like, oh, man, you can hear the fatigue. Like I know my worth well enough, and I can hear the fatigue, I can hear just how hard I found that period of time in my life. And so they were just the biggest support for me. And that's why I decided after like after, I think I was pretty pregnant when I started releasing the songs, not on Spotify. And I remember other women being like, oh my gosh, thank you. Because like, I was never really into mantra music or like the, those types of things. I was like, I want it to feel contemporary enough that someone who is not spiritual at all, can listen to it and not be like what is this? Yeah. And so it was like bringing my very like specific type of writing into a space where I was like 50% of the population have mothers or mothering or parenting or birthing babies, and there was like, no music just for them. Oh my gosh, yeah. How, how? Oh, how and so I just, I just couldn't get over that. I was like, once again, there's so underrepresented as mothers in, like, I know, there were so many female mother artists, but where is the music that is actually for them. So that's why I created the music. And then last year, I was finally like, I just need these to exist in the world. I just need them to be somewhere easy, even though it doesn't make me money. Because Spotify or Spotify, but I was just like, it just has to exist somewhere. Because, like, I just got to a point where I was like, it's not just for me, it's bigger than me. It's just bigger than me. And so that's why they're on Spotify now. And I just love the album. I still go back and listen to it. I still go backwards to it. Yeah, yeah. So for for those who haven't heard it, how do you how can you describe? Because it is very unique. Yeah, the way that you put things together and you add delays? Can you just describe how you do it? Maybe a process of how you put it together? Yeah, so essentially, I'm a vocal looping artist. So I create songs 95%, just with my voice. So essentially, it is a song where every instrument that you might hear in a normal track is my voice in my music. Yeah, it's I don't know, I don't know, genre, in regards to my music, like it really is really hard to, but it definitely has influences of many different styles. And yeah, it was one of my all time favorite time to this day favorite artists and has been probably one of the biggest influences in the way that I write. But yeah, that's how I would kind of, I would say it's like a mix of ner with Gosh, I don't even know that's a really hard thing. I used to be really good at describing what I did when I wrote like, pop music. And how I'm just like, you have to hear it. Yeah, no, literally. But it is it's very vocally dense, harmonically dense music that takes you on quite the emotional journey. Hmm, absolutely. Now that's a great way of describing it. Did you make a sort of a considered decision to not include instruments in your work? Was it like, this is you're taking ownership of this yourself? Yeah, it was I, I, when I first started, like performing I had an 11 piece band, I had a big band, I had three horns, three backing vocalists, it was like the full shebang. And the first EP I ever released was, was that it was massive. And then I remember finding it so hard to ever do gigs or to ever, like it was just a really difficult thing. And I remember being like, these instruments aren't even accurately doing or playing what I exactly want in my head, because they're all bringing their own personality and their own filter to the souls. And I remember just starting to do vocal, I started vocal looping when I was 17. And I'm 29 now. So I started vocally exploring harmony and rhythm with my voice a long time ago. And I think I was 21 or 22 When I started writing, just vocal music. And it took me a really long time to accept that that's what felt most authentic for me as a musical expression. Because I was always like, this doesn't fit anywhere in music like this doesn't, it didn't fit anywhere. It was never going to end up on radio, in the radio stations that I dreamed of like I really grappled with that for a long time. Because I was like, this just isn't like anything else I've heard. And I didn't know where it would fit. So it took me a really long time to just be like, well, this is this is me like this is this is what goes on in my brain. And I just remember getting to a point where I was like this, I have to honor the fact that if I'm going to be a musician, I am going to be an authentic musician. And this is what is going to have to sound like and it might not be for everybody. But I can go back and listen to this music and know exactly how I was feeling and hear every single vocal harmony and know that It was placed there, because my brain was like it needs to be placed there. So intentional. Yeah, it is, it was really intentional. And it's like I love collaborating with others. However, I always loved being able to have a bit of a control freak, probably. I liked being able to control where everything sat and the I knew that I could sing certain things better than other singers. And when I was my song, I wanted to be able to exactly replicate my harmony, exactly replicate, like, my vibrato on certain things. So that it would wouldn't each pot Ness doesn't necessarily stand out. By itself. It kind of feels like a wall of sound. Yeah. And so I just practiced and did that and just wrote, and I look back at the first vocal looping songs that I ever recorded in my bedroom. And it's like three layers. And I remember being like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And now you now you look at my recorded files of my songs, and it's like, minimum 40 to 50 layers of stuff. Oh, wow. Because everything gets doubled, and we pull things to the left and pull things to the right. And there's parts that exact like work exactly, just as rhythmic stuff. And, and to me, I was just like, oh, this just feels so cool. To like, Okay, so my two biggest influences are Enya. And Bobby McFerrin. Yeah, right? Yep. I studied him when I was studying at university, and he had such a huge impact on me, because he's ranged was phenomenal. And his ability to move, I just had never heard anyone like that. And I went, so I dove so deep into his vocal past. And that's why I was like, Oh, my gosh, I have to try and replicate that on a looper because I couldn't sing as low as him. And that's kind of how it really like that love affair of like being able to just be voice because his was just voice you would hear him collaborate with other musicians. And he would be singing the baseline, while the double bass player was playing, like some type of melody. It was just like, holy moly, that just blew my mind. Like it was just had such a profound impact on me. So those two together is kind of how I ended up with what I do now. Bodies Yeah, a couple of things from that. I want to mention that when you talked about having to sort of have this, I'm gonna call it an existential crisis, but literally deciding between what was genuine and authentic for you to present as your music and what I think what music industry or being in the music environment tells us, our end goal is we have to be heard we have to be on radio, we have to get our break, we have to do this, you know, it's fighting against all that. Yeah, it's, it's pretty hardcore, I really had a hard time with it. I, when I go back on my own catalogue of music, you literally see the evolution of that crisis of me starting to write with that 11 piece band and then moving into one like almost electronic music. And that was the moment where I was like, you've gotten too far off, like you've gone too far away from I was singing lead vocals on like, EDM tracks, like, like club bangers. Yeah. And I was like, you have gone so far away from where you're meant to be. And because I had health issues, I remember thinking to myself, you only can sing a certain amount of hours a day, you only have the energy to do so much creation, if you're going to do it. It needs to be something that you will love. And it needs to be something that makes you feel like truly seen and truly heard. And that was something I was so passionate about is is what I'm putting out into the world. Is that Is that me? Is that me? And the more that I practice, and that's why I always say to people, you know, your first thing doesn't have to be this thing that gets you your followers that gets your big break, whatever that means to you. Like just start because I look back and I'm like, I'm so happy I recorded that music and released it because that you can literally see the evolution of myself as an artist and trying to work hard to get to a place where the music I'm releasing most accurately reflects my internal state. And I remember when I finally got there it just like that was the vocal loop. It was just like a clip. Yeah, and it was just like, Ah, this is it. Like this is me. This is all the everything I hear in my head. I can finally create something that like that everyone else can listen to. Because even when I was with the 11 piece band, I'd be hearing so much more in my mind that was never going to be able to be played by another instrument. And other singers would were having a trouble hearing the harmonies or I couldn't have 17 singers on stage with me. So I just couldn't do that it was just, I couldn't get paid any money doing that, like I just there was no, there was no money. So if it was just me on stage with my Looper one, I would actually make money. And two, I was able to have ultimate freedom and ultimate control. Yeah, and not have to worry about someone else keeping up with me. And it was just as like, oh, that's what it felt like, it felt like such a big sigh of relief. That's what it definitely felt like, yeah, I can relate to that on a slightly different level. But same sort of thing. I do have control issues. And my sisters listening should be nodding your head right now. Because I, as I'm gonna say, I hear things, and I know how I want it to sound. And I'm getting better. I mean, I think I've, since I've totally got over it, but I don't have to do at all. Like, it doesn't have to be me. But when I spent 20 years singing in a vocal group, and towards the end, it was just, it had gone from this massive choir to like we would I was involved in like the Committee stage of things. And we, we turned it into four or five, sort of niche groups. So I was in this, this group of there were six of us. And we're, we're doing part singing. And I guess every group is going to have a leader. And it wasn't me, which was fine, because I didn't want to lead but I wanted to have my ideas heard. And I wanted to be able to say, actually, can we do it like this? Or can we try it at this tempo or whatever. But the personality clashes made it really hard to do that. So I just went, I'm not doing this anymore. And I didn't do any anything except for I turned myself into a soloist and just got mine backings got all my own gear just made it possible that I didn't have to organize rehearsals with people, I could do everything I wanted. So I basically just went, nah, this this is too much for my head anymore. And around that time. You know, my, my first son was gonna say he was about seven. Were thinking about having another one. And I was like, No, this is just too much. And so I just brought it all the way back to me and then gradually added my sister back in, because we could communicate and and do things together. But it's I don't know, you just get to that moment where you just go, This isn't me anymore. Yeah. And I think it's like, you have to give yourself permission to be okay with that. Like, I remember accepting that my music will may not live in the spaces that we are told music should live in. I remember being like, you know what, it's okay, if it doesn't end up on this radio, because I'm not the type of person that listens to the radio like that. Anyway, like, I had to really get so clear on what if I was to be a musician my whole life? If I came at the end of it, what do I want to feel like I have done for myself? And am I proud of where my music has existed? And when am I creating music that actually helps people and makes people feel things? Or am I writing music for a record label? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I really came back to like, oh, I need this is I came back to that little like 10 year old girl who wrote music because it was therapy was is what I always came back to. I was like, I want to be able to look back on to her. And be like, I I kept, I kept going with that I using was first and foremost an emotional expression for me. And anyone who gets to enjoy it. It's like, you're welcome. Like, I write, I write for me, I sing for me, I perform for me. And it just happened to be the the moment I found the most authentic expression of myself at the moment where people were like that was that was a really interesting moments like when I I don't know it doesn't happen for everybody. But for me personally, it was like I just had this perfect combination of like, sound like the sound that I was producing people were looking for. Yeah, and I'm so thankful for that. But in the end, even if I didn't have that I can listen to my music and be proud that I did it for myself. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The way you're listening to the odd thing. You talked about being pregnant. How wild is your little boy here? He is to in May. So yeah, he's a wild. I was gonna say fun times. My gosh, my child has been In a wild since the moment he was conceived, like home I gosh, I could not prepare myself at all for that journey like it was. It has been the baptism of fire over and over again with my beautiful beautiful son. He's just so wild. Oh man. Yeah, he's Yeah, it's been big. It's been a big, big journey from being sick. My whole pregnancy. He went to 42 weeks. Yeah. Oh, yeah, he was coming out. No, he was very happy. And I was in severe pain, like a my body it was just like, well, we're gonna, we're gonna break now. We're done. And then birth going sideways. In regards to Yeah, it didn't go to plan. And then our postpartum with Fergus was honestly I didn't think between pote like pregnancy and birth, I thought they were going to be the two hardest experience, but it was our postpartum. It was like a first eight months with Fergus was the just the worst time in our lives easily. So definitely, I felt like I had what I suppose people call like ego deaths. I just felt like I died over and over and over becoming a mother. It was just so your identity was changing so much. And yeah, because I barely could sing when I was pregnant. And then after I gave birth, my plan was to go back to work back to being an artist at like three months postpartum. And then I had to have an emergency cesarean for our for birth, after a home tried home birth for 24 hours. And then we gave birth to Fergus and Fergus was a incredibly distressed child, he had so much stress in his body. So we spent the first almost year of his life just supporting him like he would scream and cry for about nine hours a day. It was we couldn't leave the house. He never was able to go into a carrier because he hated any type of pressure on his restriction on his body. We couldn't put him in a pram until he was six months old, seven months old. And still to this day, he doesn't doesn't like being a pram and then he started walking at eight months started crawling at four months. Yeah, he was we we had the hardest time no one could like look after him for the first nine months of his life because he would he just had he had a lot of trauma in his body. He came out holding his neck up screaming bloody murder. Well, he could take a turn his head from birth like he was never a floppy head, baby Cheevers Yeah, he used to he never he hated sit like I have forgotten so much. We've definitely blacked out a lot. But he hated sitting from the moment he was born. He was like 10 days old and he was his legs were straight and they wouldn't he just wouldn't sit. Yeah. He had just so much tension in his body. So we had to do a lot of work with him to help him basically unwind his nervous system and that involved a lot of like, trauma for us parents of listening, being with him as he expressed his emotions and we would sit with him. And he was like we knew he was fed in we we'd gone every Western medicine route to see if there was anything wrong. I say that in inverted commas wrong with him. Yeah. And then we found a way of parenting. Yeah, that was the game changer. We worked with like a birth trauma aware parenting specialist, and she changed our life. It was yeah, it was fantastic. But Ferg was a really, really intense child. And for the first year and he still to this day is massive feelings. So I didn't sing for a year for the first year of Fergus his life I didn't didn't touch my Looper at all. And it was the worst time of my life. Yeah, yeah. Is it's literally your that identity that part of you is just disappeared. Yeah, and I genuinely thought I was never going to sing again. Like I really thought that this was over because, like fit I couldn't sing with Fergus because Fergus just hate like he just couldn't. He wouldn't sit like he couldn't be still. He wasn't just the baby you can put in a bouncer like ever. I couldn't just put him in a carrier when he wouldn't sleep. He was such a light sleeper for the first year and a half of his life. So I couldn't sing like I could never leave the bedroom and sing. So he was honestly he was like 16 months the first time I pulled out my looper. Yeah, right, since before giving birth. But I had honestly thought, hey, and my voice was so wrecked because my body was so exhausted. That I had such limited vocal range, my muscles were just shot to pieces. And I just have such deep set I have so sad. Like, I remember being so sad about it. Like I was just like this has been my life for a decade. And then some I would I had so much anger because I would watch other musicians who were mothers be able to balance both. Like they were able to take their children to their shows their child was able to fall asleep on their body as they practiced, I would watch them record music with their kids in the room. And I had a baby that was so angry. Just such an angry and struggling child that I couldn't we couldn't do anything like our life didn't even look remotely like it had before giving birth and so we really, we really struggled and we were in lockdown. And we had no family man. And that's the thing the thing that you had always gone to to work through stuff with your music that wasn't accessible tea. Nope. So I pretty iced I had, I did suffer from like, postnatal depression. Because I had no I had nothing no, not only because the pregnancy was traumatic, the birth was traumatic and our postpartum was just the worst thing in the world. But also because I just had no outlet like I just had the tools that I would always use to express how I was feeling I didn't have that anymore. And it was just it was such a dark time. Oh my gosh, it was so dark. Which is the it was I would wear out over here being like we're one and done because the idea of going through that again is just yeah, we couldn't we couldn't even fathom it. It's just now that focus is almost two is the first time in years that we've been like oh, hello like to my husband. Hi. I haven't. I haven't seen you for a while. I haven't seen you for a while like he slept on the couch for a whole year. It was just Yeah, it was very hard. So I remember being him being focus being 16 months old and finally dusting like dusting off my looper and being like Oh, hello old friend. Yeah, Joy Joy choice to see these moments to catch up above God it's up to us to give them that's got me I nearly started bawling then. Oh, man. That's tough that hell yeah. How did you get through it? Literally. How did you get through it? It was it was the it was the toughest thing I have honestly ever been through. I don't even know cam has my husband has pretty well blacked out the first four or five months of focus his life. Yeah, really can't remember it. Because we were in straight survival mode. Like we couldn't leave the house like I we couldn't even walk up the street without various catatonic Lee screaming. And we used to sit on a bouncing ball for hours just to her to try and keep him like, that's when we were we didn't understand birth trauma or nervous system issues. And we just It was exhausting. And I, I don't even know how we made it through. We just were like, we just have to. It was like the mantra of survive the day, survive the day survive the day. And it felt like we and it's still to this day. It's a lot easier now. But it honestly felt like we never got a break of like Fergus was then he went from being a really distressed, massive feelings child to suddenly like, crawling so early, and then walking so early. Yeah. And so it was just like, we went from one thing to the next thing. And he was such an angry, frustrated kid because he wanted to do everything on top of like, Oh, I've got so much anger and like so much feelings and you need to and we could never pacify him. Like if we even if we tried. Even if we tried. He was like, No, you will hear me. Yeah, we used to just sit there with him. And we listened. And we listened to him. And it was like, I'm glad I took videos of it because I remember like, it was so intense. And you'd watch his little nervous system unwind. And I remember thinking to myself, I was like, Okay, we're probably only going to do this once because of this, like it's going to get better. And I and that's when I started reaching out on Instagram and I found other mothers who had gone through a very had very similar babies to Fergus Yeah. And because everybody around me all of the friends that I had that had been having babies had were experiencing nothing like we were like it was just and that was made it so hard. Because the we didn't even know a baby like Fergus was possible. Because we never seen anything like him in regards to his intensity and he his stress and his body and he never sat. He was always twitching. And oh my gosh. And so we really it was just, it was survived the day like I cried a lot at nighttime. Like I cried, I cried the first year of his life. That was the only way and we went into therapy. I started going and seeing a therapist because we were doing so much listening to Fergus his feelings that we just had to get that extra support. And we didn't have family support at all. So it was just kind of like we Yeah, it was dark. Oh my gosh, it was so dark. It's just started even though Oh, man. Yeah, it was it was definitely hard. And I remember the first time I met in person, another mother who had a baby like Fergus, and I just cried to just almost a relief like it was just me it was because I only met her in the last like two months because she lives over here. And she her experience, she gave birth to her child three days after Fergus and her child, her birth mirrored our birth and their her baby mirrored Fergus, and they might turned out that Kim and her husband had actually met each other through and aware parenting men's group online. And they so it was like, just meeting someone else who could relate to so many aspects of our parenting experience was just like, incredibly healing. And I didn't know that I needed that healing before until I met her in the flesh. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, there's someone who truly understands. Yeah, yeah. And that's thing like when you said before about, sorry, I've just realized that my camera's frozen up, but I am still here. In that position, look like or it's fun. Yeah, like the people around you that have having babies that are not experiencing what Vegas is experiencing. It'd be so easy for them to place judgment on your parenting as a reason why your baby's struggling and that it would that would be tremendously unhelpful and unkind. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I was pretty I was very lucky that the everyone around me knew that what we were going through was really different to theirs and that we were doing everything I like the everything we did to support Fergus, and then I came off with first we were like, it might it was a tongue tie. So we had his tongue tie snipped, and then we took him to osteo, cranial sacral therapy, physio, Cairo, naturopath, I came off basically all foods other than roast vegetables and chicken for four or five months, I have lunch and dinner. I used to give him a naturopathic tonic to try and help we thought it was might be a stomach. Everything, I changed the way that I was breastfeeding to try and help Oh my gosh, we went we did. We knew we knew that we were doing everything possible, like within, like, anything possible to try to help him. Yeah. Until we got to a point where we were like it, none of that it's his stress, like is so much you would look at his body. And you could tell that his nervous system was so wired. And I felt so much guilt in my body for that because I was like, he became like that when he was in my womb. That was definitely the the story that I told myself for a really long time. So I definitely think that I punished myself for that. And I took on a lot more of the listening to feelings and my husband because I was like, I did this. I have to undo it. Yeah, right. Was there a point where that became, you realized that that wasn't the truth? Um, I think over time, I just was like, even if it was me, what's done is done. Like I couldn't like I couldn't go back and change my pregnancy. Also, I was like, Yeah, I was incredibly stressed. We were, it was a pandemic. There was stuff that was happening within my family on the other side of the country that I could never, I couldn't go and be with them. We were told when we were pregnant, that Forbus was going to have Down syndrome. Like our pregnancy was really stressful. Yeah. And we'd also miscarried before Fergus, and so I was really stressed. Yeah, yeah. So even if, even if, like, there's certainly so many things that I probably could have done differently, but I just got to a point where I was like, I'm doing everything within my ability now to support his nervous system so that it can relax. I can't like I can't keep beating myself up for what the experience was for him because he's thriving now. Like I was. I was like Kim and I sacrificed a lot of ourselves and our relationship in that first year for Fergus to be How he is now. Yep. And I often think to myself, I can't even imagine the type of child that he would be now, if we hadn't supported him so much releasing the tension that he had in his body then. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What does your music look like now your music practice now that Fergus is a little older? Yeah. So he goes to date a family daycare two days a week. And so that's pretty much when I get to do anything outside of mothering. Because he is a full on child, I can't just set my Looper up. And when he's around this, he was just honestly, and it would be you'd set it up so that you could have fun with your child. Yeah. Yeah. So I Tuesdays and Wednesdays are the days that I can actually create music. And that's the days that I do all of my art and all of my work. And that's really it. Like, I sometimes do it in the evenings, after he goes to bed, because our My office is down the other end of the house, but I'm so tired. By the end of the day, he he wakes up between four and 430. Every single, every single morning, and he's ready to go. He's so turbo. Yeah, he's so turbo, that by the end of the day, you are us. You just you just absolutely exhausted. So I really, I just look forward to Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and I'm like, this morning, I was like, okay, I can actually like do all the things that it's hard. And the thing that I have struggled with the most is the fact that I used to spend my entire week. If I had any creative idea, I could write that in there, stick with it, and create and that was just, oh my gosh, it was so hard for me to have to, like lock in key ideas and be like later, later, later, later, because I was that person that was like, I'd have an idea in the morning and it would be recorded in the evening. Yeah, yeah. So that's been something the the amount of creativity that I am able to do is significantly less but because I think I went from so much to nothing. I two days a week feels like absolute heaven. I'm like, take it I'll take it oh my god one hour fantastic. Like cam can take focus out for like for an afternoon on the weekend. And I just get to stay home and do like anything to do with my art and I feel like a different woman. Yes. And so it's been like hard fought to get to this and I'm I think I'm like very grateful. I'm really quick at doing stuff now. Like even quicker than I was before. Because I go okay, you have four hours and you have to get all this done. Go like yes, like I don't I don't go with this work. I trust the idea. Trust the idea. And that's been the so it's definitely gotten me really like onto it. But right now it's two days a week that I have to do everything it's art is Chris's son so what sort of things are inspiring you at the moment with your, with your music? What are you sort of creating about, I guess, I am definitely processing my postpartum period through my music at the moment. I am writing songs that allow me to make sense of the experience that we had. Because we are kind of through that dark tunnel of that first really, almost two years of his life. I'm at a point where I'm like, Okay, I need to process what we what we went through, like I really need to, because my body still shakes when I talk about it. Like yeah, my body goes into like a trauma response when when we talk about that whole experience that we had, and I recognized that for me like therapy was great. But it didn't get everything that I needed out of my system. And so right now I'm the music that I'm recording for myself is definitely postpartum music that I'm hoping one day I can release because I know that there are other mothers that really need music that like validate is the experience that they're having? Absolutely. So that's the myself right now. That's the music I'm writing. But I'm also writing, actually, I'm running choir music. Because I have started a choir. Yes, I was gonna ask you about that. Yeah, well, I have been, I think most singers that love the voice fantasize about either singing in a choir or having their own choir. And I was like, I had been thinking about it for years. I was like, three years ago, it's so great to have a choir because I used to lecture. And one of the classes that I lectured in was creative arranging and voice and we do a lot of choir stuff in that. And I was always, like, I'd love to be able to transpose some of the music that I write into acquire setting, to be a hero at like, live and just to be able to have other people get the opportunity to experience singing my, my arrangements, and I was like, Okay, so we're not in lockdown anymore. I'm not in Margaret River anymore. I don't have a newborn baby anymore. Like, I think the time is now. And I was like, um, I'll probably just like, run it from my house, maybe like 10 people, that'd be great. And then I was like, I don't have space to 10 cars. And so then I had a friend that I've met who has a shop in this particular pavilion and your Monday. She was like, why don't you hold it in the pavilion? And I was like, Oh, my gosh, that mean that can hold more than 10 people? I don't know. And then I, and then I was like, Okay, maybe I'll just make the first choir session free so that people can come and have an idea about like, what is the type of music that I would create, and we were like, Let's hope for 20. And then I put the signup form, we had 70 people, oh, good for you. And I and my mind was blown, my mind was blown. I was like, oh, people want to sing. And I think the thing that I can recognize is that a lot of choirs around for an older demographic. And also, a lot of the music that they're singing isn't, if you haven't sung before, or if you haven't done in a while, it's can be quite daunting for a lot of people. And so my type of music that I write is, it's pretty repetitive, it's looping. So the parts once they have them, is a very easy for them. And I wanted it to be like focused on your part. And it might not be hard. But I want you to be able to understand how it fits within the context of the whole song, so that you can actually listen to all of the other parts going on. Yeah, and I suppose after being isolated for so long, I was just desperate to create something that allowed me to be with other people in a creative setting. Yeah. So that's kind of we had our first rehearsal on Sunday. And I think there was like 4045 people came, which was just wow, that was just amazing. And damn, they could sing. I was I went into it being like, I went into being like, I don't know, like, we'll see what level they're at. And they picked up parts so fast. I was like, Okay, I now know what type of choir I'm writing for. Yeah, and so it's just like, kind of like a dream, it's the first time that I'll be able to actually make money since becoming a mum. Because I have not really been able to work because of Fergus. And then we moved across the country. And so this is like really a really exciting and fulfilling way to actually make some kind of income for myself, as well, which is just like a added bonus, to be honest. Yes. Yeah. I gotta admit, when I when I saw that your Instagram reel that you created, you're working through that process of, do you think the terms right now and then you can tell us like, Oh, my God, I want to do that. Because it's like, no one does that everyone wants to sing, like, just crap songs, and, you know, versions of pop songs. It's like, getting back to what music is, you know, at its essence. Yeah, I had an experience years and years ago. Because through our, our vocal group, we'd get like, we go to places and learn things. And people come and visit and teach us things. And this guy just broke it all down one day said, he said, we're not going to sing anything, that we're not going to sing things with words, we're not going to, you're not gonna know this song. There's no structure to it. He didn't even give us sheet music. So straightaway, people are freaking out because this is not what we do. He gave us a chord and he just said, Pick a night in this court. And then he'd go over, like we had to hold it for a long time. So it was good way to practice our, you know, control vocal, and listen to the agility X to you. When are they going to breathe, you have to not breathe at the same time, all this sort of stuff that was held, it's good, it's good things there. But then it just go over to one part and it just say, just move your note. And so people are looking at each other like, oh, how do I move my note? What do I do? Where do I put it? I don't know what to do. And he's like, just trust yourself. Just just Just move your note. And so then people would just move their note. And then he'd come up to another group and just say, now you move on. And it was just the most freeing experience. And I still couldn't let as I'm telling you, I can see it in my head, it was so wonderful. I was like, we don't need all these bells and whistles and all this stuff that goes with it. You know, it's just getting back to the essence of it. And it was amazing. And I think the thing that I recognize is that people feel so intimidated by singing, for so intimidated by singing, because, you know, the music that you hear on the radio are either very auto tuned or from trained singers. And so there aren't many spaces that exist for them to have the opportunity to actually sing. And most people can hold a note, like, even those that believe they're tone deaf, it's just the muscle of super underdeveloped, so the more you use it, the better your ear and vocal muscle gets. Yeah. And I was just like, I want people to have the opportunity to sing something that's not a radio song, that where that you're expressing an emotion, because you're part of a whole, like really having that idea that you are a really important piece of this puzzle. And it might not be a hard part. But you actually have the opportunity to develop your ears and understand how your part is, like the context of it. Yeah, where you fit in and where we fit in. You know how important your party is like, yeah, I remember at one point being in was doing an SSA arrangement, and I was first our show, and we were literally a drone. We had a drone, honestly, one of the most important ones. Yeah, God. Yes. And I said that all the time. I say that all the time. I'm like, the Jerome note is literally one of the most important notes in almost every arrangement that I do, because of how all the other notes are affected by that one note. It's like the the level of tension that you can create from a moving parts and how that one note actually influences. Yeah, yeah, I, there was a group on Sunday that for one song, their note was a drone note and I was like, I want you to take this opportunity to feel what this drone note actually is here to make you feel like why is that drone note here? Like if without it? What are the other parts sound like? Yeah, yeah, it's and I, you almost as if you listen to my music, there's almost always a drone note in the songs. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's so important. It is so important. And then, years later, obviously, years and years and years later, my son now plays the bagpipes. And when you hear it, when you hear those drones fire up, they're like, Yeah, I get this, like, they're the heart and soul. Like they're the bits that you know, the hold everything together. And I always hated how people, they played, like these jokes on our toes like this, the joke like the sopranos says to the alto, the melody and they go, Oh, I don't get it. And they're like, Yeah, course you don't get it, like you never get the tune. But it's like, the tune is the most boring part of Yeah, it's always underneath that just drives it. Well, it's like that's the when I think about harmony, it's like, it's really easy for most singers to sing a third above. The third below is the like the harmony that creates like the most important texture, but it's also the hardest for someone's ear to actually be able to hear. So it's like something that I always work on. It's like the you've got your melody and you've got your Harmony above, but that harmony below is what gives like the rich texture of your sound. So low voices are just like, so important to me, because of the impact that they have on a harmony. Because it's like I when I think of harmonies, I think of like, a really important balance. And if you have too many harmonies that sit higher in a register, your your balance is like off put and suddenly, the top harmonies are starting to really ping out rather than it being like a really perfect balance. Yeah, and I mean, the only reason I am so obsessive over those because I've spent so much time listening to harmony, and so much time listening to how harmony impacts me emotionally. And when I go into a song, I'm always like, how do I want people to feel when they hear this and being able to pick notes that I know will elicit those emotions, but that just comes with like, a lot of a lot of time. Yeah, I think a real interest in in being able to express some like something audibly with no words. It's also like it's when, when it doesn't have words, people's minds don't have to think so much. Because what I often find is people who aren't necessarily singers, they get really stressed about having to remember words if you're not using a book. And what I found is with singers that aren't, you know, choir singers, like haven't had that type of training, their head will be so down in their book trying to remember their part that they're actually missing half What's the point of singing with other people? Yeah, that's it, it becomes this insular thing that you're just focusing on yourself. Yeah, yeah. And so that's just why I do it's like, quite simply, it's for them to be up at around each other. Yeah. My God My says, the memory of my legs. When you said before, about listening to each other, I feel like that is the most underrated part of part seeing people get so focused on themselves, like, and you said about heads in books. But I could, I could literally for years seeing other people's parts, because you spent so much time working out where you fit in, and perhaps why you fit in to this where you see as part of his whole group, it's so important, and I think it teaches you so much about, like life skills, you know, listening to each other. When When do you need to back off? When is it, you know, time for you to come forward? And you're blending and listening to those around you like that? When I said before about when you take your breath like, well, we're not good at listening as a society. Yeah, absolutely. It's when like, it's really easy to see that we're not very good at listening to others, because we're always thinking about the thing that we're going to say next. And so it's like, singing in a group l gives you the opportunity to, and it kind of forces you to have to listen to others. And it's like, it's why I make it's why I do things really specifically of not having like books to read from and making parts simple and repetitive. Because I want to give people the opportunity to work on their listening skills. Because then they just have that like ability to be like, Oh, I could switch parts I could. Like I can hear their part. If someone next to me is struggling to hear their part. I can help them find their part. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it definitely definitely oh my gosh, I remember singing in choirs, and your head would be down. And you'd just be following the words. And I just be following the music writing on the page. And I wouldn't be caring if I was singing too loud. Like that's the other thing is like, yeah, everyone wants to be the soloist. Yeah, that's like you go okay, but you're part of a hole. Which means if you can't hear the Alto or you can't hear the sopranos, then you're already singing too loud. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it teaches you so much doesn't Yeah, I think it's such a beautiful opportunity. Like, I love the spaces that choirs can, like the right type of wires can create. Put that caveat in there? That's so exciting. I'm so pleased you're doing that. I think it's a wonderful expansion of your, you know, sharing your, say your wave of music, but it's like, yeah, it can't you know what I mean? It kind of like no, I do. It's like my, the way that I write like I'm giving it. And the thing that I was told over and over on Sunday was it's like, people were really looking forward to having an opportunity to sing the type of music that I write. Yes. And I was like, oh, yeah, well, that's that that meant so much to me, because it's like, as we've said, I've spent so long worrying that the type of music that I wrote wasn't didn't fit anywhere. And then to have people be like, Oh, I've seen these parts at home, or I listened. Yes. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, absolutely. I sing. I sing these harmonies by myself in the shower. I'm like, You kidding me? Like, I yeah, it's just been such a beautiful validation of what I have chosen to be as an artist. Yes, absolutely. And I would love to be able to, like, I would want to create a choir in Sunshine Coast, but I want to take like a live loops workshop and be able to take what I do to a day long workshop somewhere in other places that because other people would love the opportunity to sing these types of arrangements. Yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, it is really it's a really exciting project. And I'm just like, feel so fulfilled, but it feels really like in alignment with what I do. Yeah. And I think that's what I've been trying to find is like, I don't want to teach people singing how to sing well, like I don't have no interest in teaching technique. I'm like, there are so many singing teachers out there. Like I want to create spaces where people get to experience harmony, because harmony has had such a profound impact on me. And my ability to cope with life. Yeah. Oh, that's why I'm so pleased for you. Honestly, it's just sounds crisp, I can be my heart swell. You know, it's just wonderful. I really I'm really, really pleased for you. And I'm very jealous that I'm not there. I'm I just have to come down the coast. Do you come down a long way? Right to the bottom of the mainland. Sorry, just on that if there's payment listening that are in your neck of the woods So what's the best way for them to get in touch if they're interested in in a bit more, we will be social media. So my instagram handle is the dot Edwina dot Masson, Ma, Double S O n. That's where pretty much everything that I do everything that I offer, all the links to all of my work is that's kind of where I play at the moment. So that would be that that would be the spot and just message me or email me any, like, beautiful girl up? I'm pretty, I'm pretty easy to contact. That's awesome. Yep. So we're just about to start term one. So it's going to run in terms, and at the end of each term, we're going to have like a little concert. And so that's kind of where my focus is at creatively focuses. Yeah, one thing at a time choir, establish the choir. Yeah. And on that, I think it is important for people to have a goal to be to perform, because I've been at times in a group where you don't have any, you're just singing, it's like, that's lovely. We love it. But to be able to then actually put yourself up there is like a whole new kettle of fish, you know, for people to get to witness the work that they've put in, you know, I mean, I'm just like, I really believe. Yeah, and because then it gives other people permission to do the same thing. It's like, this isn't a bunch of people that have grown up to having singing, training or singing in choirs, but then when you see them sing together as a group, and they can see how they've improved from the start of the term to the end of the term. Because it's important for me to be able to teach them technique and teach them how to braid properly and teach them how to warm their voice up. It's, they would be remiss of me to like, just get them singing and not care about their vocal health. Yeah. I even heard people saying at choir, they could hear the difference in their voice from the start of that two hours to the end of the two hours, because of the muscle, like because of them actually using that muscle. Yeah. And it's like, I want to give people the opportunity one to hear the work that these people have been putting in, but to then maybe even try it themselves. Absolutely. And see that it's actually it's not this way out scary thing that's only accessible to people who've been, you know, tracing. elite group of people. Yeah, that's how it definitely can feel. Yes, yeah. And so and then when you give people the opportunity to actually sing with other people, you realize that most people can sing everybody has a voice, like, Yeah, everybody has a voice. Yeah, there's people that tell me they can't see I'm like, you just don't know how to use your instrument. Literally. That's me, you know, every muscle a thing in your body that we all have, you know, it's just like some people are born with the ability to run faster than others before they've ever been trained. And then they choose because they have, they're better at that party, that muscle is more developed, then they might choose to become a runner. Some people's vocal cords, or their ears are born more developed with more of an aptitude for music. But it just because the starting point is different doesn't mean you don't have the ability to work to be as good or whatever, it's just a muscle a muscle that can be stressing it literally and you learn that that's really obvious when when you've been a singer for a while, and you get some training and you go Holy shit, I can do this as well. I didn't know that, you know? Yeah, it's like I don't sound like I sound like I did when I was 15 You know what I mean? Like I had a good voice when I was 15. But I sound nothing like I did then because I've had training so I've just worked on the muscle and the more you do it, the more flexibility the muscle has and the more agility it has. And yeah, so I definitely believe in like just give it a shot and I want to create spaces that give the people the the opportunity to safely do that. Yeah, no, I'm good on Yeah, that's it's so inspiring. I'm really pleased for you and I'm gonna follow the journey along on your Instagram I'm really really pleased for you that's wonderful too chatting with you it's been lovely. I feel energized and light and bubbly. Now I feel like I need to go record something for how Yeah, that's what I'm gonna be doing I would be like, like, peace out. I'll get my recording studio open. Yeah, thank you so much for having me these I always value having a space opera like opportunity to share my journey and to share my story with others because I I know that my experience and what I do can hopefully make other people feel less alone. And and so I I am very thankful to to you for having a space or Thank you. Thank you and I'm frozen still, but I'm sorry. No. I know I like you face has been frozen in some great position. It's hilarious, isn't it? Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review. Following or subscribing to the pod Fast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom ee the day Hi mean I know lives for was I must was five okay I will see you God