Australian musician and podcaster
This week I am pleased to welcome Claire Tonti to the show. Claire is a musician and podcaster from Melbourne VIC and a mum to 2 children.
Claire was right into music in her early 20s, and has come back to it later in life. She recently released her album Matrescence which she began writing at the beginning of 2022. She returned to music after having long covid and being at her lowest point mentally and physically .
Matrescence was inspired by what she was feeling and going through post partum and a lot of the songs are inspired by people and women particularly who she had listened to speak over many years of podcast interviewing.
Claire hosts 2 podcasts, currently Tonts and Suggestible with her husband, and she has previously hosted Just Make The Thing, She runs a podcast company with her husband who is a comedian, podcaster and youtuber.
You can tell Claire is a podcaster/interviewer, as she somehow turns the tables on me during this episode and at times it is hard to tell who is interviewing who! This is a really vulnerable and emotional episode.
Matrescence is the physical, emotional, hormonal and social transition to becoming a mother.
This episode contains mentions of post natal depression and anxiety, pre natal anxiety, birth trauma, post natal depletion,
If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here
Music used with permission from Claire, tracks from her recent album Matrescence.
When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies.
Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page
Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast
I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world!
Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region.
Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mom guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music plate, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone dig people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the podcast. It's great to have you here from wherever you're listening, whether it be Australia, United States or in Ireland. This week, I'm pleased to welcome Claire tante to the show. Claire is a musician and podcaster from Melbourne, Victoria, and she's a mom to two children. Claire was right into music in early 20s and has come back to it later in life. She recently released her album called muttrah essence, which she began writing at the beginning of 2022. She returned to music after having long COVID And being at her lowest point mentally and physically. Her album muttrah essence was inspired by what she was feeling and going through postpartum. And a lot of the songs are inspired by people and women particularly who she had listened to speak over many years of podcast interviewing Claire hosts to podcast currently taunt and suggestible with her husband, and she's previously hosted just make the thing. She runs a podcast company with her husband who is a comedian, a podcast and a YouTuber. Claire is an ambassador for cope and the Gidget foundation and she is so passionate about supporting mothers. When you listen to this today, you can tell that Claire is a podcaster and an interviewer as she somehow manages to turn the tables on me during this episode. And at times, it's hard to tell who exactly is interviewing her. This is a really vulnerable and emotional episode with both Claire and myself sharing a lot of intimate details regarding our childbirth experience and postpartum. This episode contains mentions of postnatal depression, anxiety, prenatal anxiety, birth trauma, and postnatal depression. Throughout today's episode, you'll hear snippets of Claire's music tracks taken from her brand new album called mitr essence, which is available on all of the streaming platforms now, we can head to the link in the bio to purchase them. Please take care of yourselves and enjoy the episode
bye. It's been two knees hands yours and mine. beaten, beaten in time. Same rhythm, same kind cause the light brown things clickety clack in and trains long the music came to heart beat the same.
Well thank you, Claire, thank you for coming on. Appreciate you being part of the podcast. It's a pleasure to welcome you today. Oh,
thank you so much. It's such a joy to be here. I've been really looking forward to this.
Oh, good. Excellent. I actually I have been looking forward to change you too. Because as a musician, I love talking to musicians. I love talking to everybody. But you know, it's always good to converse in something that you know.
Yeah, you kind of get the weird and wild well don't you like being amused though, and all the different like personality stuff and egos and just like the magic of it too, you know, I guess right? It's really nice. And also to say someone who else is a mom and a musician today, I think to kill a hybrid.
Yes, yes. It's its own whole new world really isn't it?
Absolutely is exactly right. All right, Alison. Yeah.
So yes, you're a musician. People know that now. But you're also, you're also a podcaster. And I think you do too to podcast. Is that right?
I do. Yeah, we're not Well, like I think a lot of parents and mothers particularly would say, it's a total mess or time and a rolling feast. But it's also been so much fun, I sort of, I started, just make the thing with my first podcast, which is how to start a thing and keep on making it. And that was an experiment to kind of find my voice. And if I could make a thing, I wasn't doing music. At that point, I had two little kids and running a podcast company doing all the behind the scenes, because my partner's a podcaster, and a YouTuber. And so after I was a primary school teacher, and then went on maternity leave, I sort of started there, helping him to monetize his show, and then other local comedians around the tracks. And I had convinced myself that I wasn't a creative person, but that my role in life was to help other people to be creative. And that's what I loved about teaching and what I kind of built my world as. And for some reason, didn't think I deserved my own space for creativity. And music was certainly the biggest and scariest thing for me. And so I also convinced myself that it wasn't really something I could do, and I wasn't good enough at it. So I probably stopped did music in early 20s, and then came back to it. And so yeah, all that is to say, I started with just make this thing which was just this kind of little dipping my toe in the water. And then I started suggestible, which is a recommendation show with my husband, where we recommend things watch, read and listen to we argue every week, he brings his post apocalyptic style was like, like vibe. And I bring my books written by mainly women, and rom coms, and we kind of like discuss it, he actually, to be fair, he also brings a lot of content made by diverse voices. And he's got a really big depth of knowledge in that space. So it's actually been a beautiful show to do. A lot of people listen with their partners, which has been really beautiful as well and recommend recipes, and that kind of things, that sort of comedy, and recommendations. And then Tonsai began couple of years ago now. And that's my interview show where I look at emotions really. And I talk to people about their stories. I really am interested in women's stories and diverse voices, activists, writers, experts, and thinkers, and deeply feeling humans really. And that's been the biggest joy to create that show. I'm currently working on Season Four at the moment. And interestingly, as I've grown in this space, I've found that I'm now talking more and more about women's health and hormones, interviewing women about chronic stress and how to make it all work as mothers even I interviewed Jane Harper, and that was a thing we talked about for ages, which was how to deal with mother guilt, and the complex nature of all of that stuff. So even the people you think that have it all figured out? Definitely don't. That was a long winded way of saying yes. No, that's fabulous. I love that.
So I can breathe easy. I want to making space from me, like where Paul's pie. But what you've done is breaking me down so far. I can't get up. Because you so call now. Just call taunt
is obviously like a play on your username tante. Where is that surname from was what's the heritage of that?
So yeah, my full surname is Tonti Filippini. But I just shortened it to 20. And then my friends call me Tom. It's been a nickname that's been around for a while. So that's why I use that. I love it. Yeah, my dad didn't tell you.
Yeah, cool. And I love that, like what I'm finding through this podcast, it's just so awesome to talk to other people. Like just like I was saying before about, you know, the mother, the mother, musician, like there's all these different worlds. And, like, I'm discovering so much stuff that I never knew before and learning so many things aren't even new and seeing different perspectives. And I guess you'd experienced that too with talking to so many different people.
Yeah, absolutely. I've learned so much. I think that now I've released this album called nitro essence, which I started writing at the beginning of last year. And I realized I came to music after long COVID And I was really at my lowest point and I've been speaking and talking to women for a really long time. And by that point, and listening to a lot of different voices and artists and writers and creatives, but not actually really stepping into my identity as an artist, but I think all of that listening and all of those conversations kind of came together for me at that time, and when I couldn't watch TV I couldn't, I was really so depleted after having my second baby during COVID. And also homeschooling and doing all the things that we all did during that time, particularly if you had kids that everyone had their own struggles, and, you know, as musicians and artists as well, it was a really, really challenging time for the industry overall. But yeah, when I got long COVID, and had postnatal depletion, and I really just could parent and rest, I couldn't work and then use it kind of came back into my life, there's a way to listen. And then I developed this cough and as a podcast or a coffee is not very good to have like real coffee feeds. And so I decided to go and get some singing lessons. And I was still telling myself it was just because I had this cough that I needed to figure out. And then very quickly after I started singing lessons with my teacher, Bianca fan, she saw my songwriting, and said, Did you know you're a songwriter? And what are you doing with them. But I do think so many of the songs that came from that place, I took them to her nephew, they heal, and he's a music producer. And initially, it was going to be two songs we'd record and very quickly, it exploded to be 11 songs about I didn't realize what my tresses was at that point. But it was really just about what I was feeling and going through. A lot of those songs are inspired by the people and the women, particularly who I've listened to fake overseas. And I think that's the beauty of podcasting, you get these kind of lovely microcosms of connection with people that you may never speak to otherwise, doing work that you really admire or that you're interested in, you learn so much. And then as an artist, and as a creative, you almost like absorb it or like a sponge, and it sits there somebody in the back of your brain, I always think I have like a spider that lives in the back of my brain collecting things. You know, just like a bow a bird. You don't have a lot of time to like, we wait for the right moon to come out in the sky to like write your beautiful sonnet or whatever. So it just sits there collecting things while I'm busy doing other stuff. And I think for me, it was like 15 years of busy doing other stuff. So when I finally let that spider out, sounds strange, but you know, it was suddenly like, excellent. Here's all these things and all the stuff that you've learned and heard about from other women and also your own journey. So yeah, yeah, podcasting, it's a magic space to be well,
I can definitely relate to that. Like, I found that by hearing other people's perspective on their creativity, it allowed me to be a lot more free with mine and not have these, like I'm can be quite a perfectionist and have the standards that things have got to be a particular way, which is good in some respects with my music. But then in other, like my painting, I never thought I could paint or draw because it was it didn't look very good. So that was my thing, I won't do it, because I can't do it sort of thing. And then just, I mean, it sounds really obvious, but there's a lot of different kinds of painting, but because I've never really delved into it, or talk to anyone about it. It just was the one of these things I just didn't do. And just by talking to people and realizing that you can do whatever you want, like, oh, wow, this is great. And so now I enjoy that as part of like, it's almost like a bit of a self care sort of thing, where if I'm processing, you know, as situation or emotions, whatever i i will often just be drawn to the painting side of things. So it's become a really good tool for me, you know, to look after myself and my mental health. So yeah, like, I would never have tried that or done that if I hadn't talked to so many people about it. So that's been really good for me.
Yeah. I think that it's so magical. And having that kind of tactile outlet that we've the paint in the color, we can just imagine that would be so soothing. Yeah, and I do really believe deeply that creativity in the arts is a big tool in the toolkit of healing. And I think and particularly matriculants, for those who don't know, is a word that describes the complex transition to motherhood that happens through adolescence, similarly to adolescence. So if we think of hormone to use identity crisis, body changes, social networks change, who we are as a person shifts, the people, the way people see us in the world shifts when we become an adolescent. It's the same in retracements. And I think there's a really powerful way that art and creativity can really help women and people who give birth to move through that transition. And I think in our culture, it's often underrated and undervalued. Yeah, absolutely. I thought it would be it was the last thing I tend to when actually, it was a thing that worked for me. And it's not as tight. You know, obviously, there was diet related changes and medication is also really amazing and going to see medical professionals but yeah, creativity cannot be underestimated for effective. Yeah.
Are you watching? Video thing? Yeah, I don't know, more than rolling. Blame news. Five. DNA, me,
and just on that, like, the Moto essence has become a word that's very common now, I suppose. And it's only been in the last few years, I think that it's really been something that people talk about and refer to in that way. And I can't feel like, you know, you're talking about the teenager is a similar sort of comparative time with all the changes, like, I feel like we give teenagers a break, like, we say, oh, you know, they're really struggling, because it's this time, you know, the hormones are changing, and we seem to give them a lot of, sort of give them a break. But when it comes to mums that are struggling, it's like, well, that's what you're supposed to do, you're supposed to have a baby, you know, like, it's, it's almost like suck it up, because that's your body. And like you're a woman, that's what you're supposed to do. So just do it. You know, do you feel like we said, that's not a feeling that is
not a culture, it's the culture we live in. And it's not the culture that exists across the globe. I know, for example, in India and in China, and a lot of other traditions Bali have a lot of traditions like this to a woman when she gives birth, particularly for the first time is seen as a newborn, just like a newborn is, there's a phrase the newborn mother that I love, because really you are your child, like you don't know yet what you're doing yet, you don't know how to feed your baby yet you don't know what this new body is even going to look like or what it's going to mean, there's milk coming out your boobs, how did that even happen? And often, even in the lead up, that the word mature essence should be spoken about before women or people who give birth even embark on parenthood. It's so it's a really huge transition to make. And in our culture, we just push women out of the hospital after two days and say figure it out yourself. And you'll be right. And part of it is underfunding. But I also think it's a loss of village. And it's also a lot of and a devaluing of wisdom and knowledge that used to be passed down through generations. And so in those traditions, like there's a beautiful woman who works at our local bookstore, Mira and I went in there with my album, and we were talking and she said, yeah, when I was becoming a mother, my mother moved in with me for 40 days, I wasn't allowed to leave the bed, she brought all the food to me really warming foods cleaned, my house cooked, we had a whole lot of people coming in. All I had to do was feed my baby, and then and then they would put her down. And so she said during the pandemic, she prepared her bags to do that for her own daughter, and then couldn't go because of COVID, which and there's just so many micro mini stories of tragedy through COVID. And but one of the big overarching stories is that all the problems that were there inherent with the lack of care from others, a lack of honoring of their journey, the lack of knowledge around what they actually need, and let me tell you, it's not nurseries and Pinterest boards and special bugaboo prams, it's, it's psychology before they even get to start to become pregnant. It's really knowing themselves. It's understanding they can advocate themselves in the birth for themselves. In the birthing room, they can be in charge of their birth and not handed over to the doctors who technically know best in inverted commas. They know their body, and they know what they need, and should be empowered to know all of their options. So that when they get in there, if there's someone in that room who isn't being supportive of them, they can tell them to eff off. Yeah, yeah. And also then moving from there having postpartum planning. So that's where I hadn't even heard of the word doula when I had my kids. And then I think I thought the word doula was like a boozy thing that maybe Gwyneth Paltrow did in Hollywood. Like, why would you do that? When actually it's just a woman who understands the process of birth and can advocate for you if your partner doesn't know and often, your partner is a bloke and he is just as much in the dark as you are. So having someone there that can also then come and care for you afterwards if you don't have that village support. So all of that is to say that essence was coined in the 1970s by Donna Raphael. And she's an amazing anthropologist, and then brought back in kind of the early 2000s, by early Athan, and she was an academic based in Canada. And she brought that term back, but it's coming back again. And I think it's really because COVID highlighted just how ginormous, the problems are in a culture that doesn't care for mothers and honors them in the way they should be. And now, with this knowledge that I have, I totally get what I went through when I have my kids. And I just think so many women, when they hear that term go, Ah, okay, it wasn't just that I needed to suck it up. And I couldn't hack it. And, you know, I couldn't be that perfect mother and I was good. I thought I'd love it every minute. And I did in all conversely, I love it, but I'm different to who I was. And maybe my friendships look different, and my body looks different. And this understanding that I think he's powerful, I will say as well. And I wonder if you resonate with this that just like some people went through adolescence, and we're bloody great at it, like just knew what to wear. You had to go to I don't know, neither right parties to go to seem to have less glamorous photos of them, you know, just by party. Love. Yeah, really rocky adolescence, like, very awkward times, terrible outfits, incredibly nerdy. And I love that girl now so much, because I think she was so unique and weird and great and kooky and wrote a lot of poetry and just thought didn't know who she was in. Glorious. But I just think that's the same for women, like, go through retracements and love it, and some are gonna struggle on it's a huge spectrum. And then on the other end of it is a question I've been asking a lot I don't have an answer to and I'm not an expert. I'm just a mother and a musician with my stories. But what is a same reaction to a really difficult time in your life in contrast, and so what's a very difficult for tresses versus what is clinical diagnosis of postnatal depression or psychosis, and things that need medical intervention. And I think it's a really gray area. And something I've been speaking to professionals about now. And I'm interested to talk more about on my podcast because I think some of the rocky part of that early motherhood is just like, of course, you find these hard because it is bloody hard. But then there's also a line there, when is it appropriate? And medication and other options are very fast.
So like Coca Cola in summer like soap is a pattern no matter what though, as your last flowers in bloom found the blue love if you don't
become an ambassador for Coke, and also the Gidget foundation. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I'm really passionate about letting women and people out there know about their services. So cope has an amazing e directory where you can put in your postcode, and it will show you all of the services available in your area for whatever you need in that early parenthood, Merit Peri natal space. And lots of research. There's also a great app that you can download on your phone. So you can do screening for postnatal depression, privately, rather than having to go to a maternal health nurse necessarily. And there's wonderful maternal health nurses too, but can often be very confronting, and sometimes you feel a bit judged. And so doing that privately is great. So Koch is amazing. And the Gidget Foundation, have free counseling available online. So you can call a number and speak to someone immediately, as do Canada. And I would really encourage anyone listening to this to suspect they have a friend who's struggling a family member who's struggling, if they're struggling, it doesn't matter how long ago you had your baby, either. That or whatever you went through in the kind of perinatal mental health space, those surfaces and services are available. So anyway, I keep giving you very long winded answers.
No, it's really good. Because you say you, you there's so many points you've raised, and I keep writing them down to come back to which is it's cool. But yeah, thank you for mentioning that. And that's really cool that you're you're an ambassador for them because I feel like I was actually talking to someone yesterday, and I can't even think who they were this is really bad when you talk to so many people. It all runs around in your head but it's same thing like I hacked back to my days of 15 years ago, prenatal class was basically teaching you how to watch a video of a natural birth. Just to freak you out a bit more and to scare all the dads. And basically the extent of you know, they taught you how to change a nappy, they gave you hints on settling, which were one of them was run your baby's pram over, like a lump on the floor, like, and I was like, Okay, now I realize how dumb that is. Sorry, not dumb, unhelpful. Some of it was. And the they got a guy to come and talk from Beyond Blue. And all I remember from him, was saying, I It's good going to be a bit rough. Yeah, so good luck with that. Like, I literally remember him saying, so good luck with that. And I just thought afterwards when, like, this is the culture of what you're giving mothers, this is what this is normal to give mothers and yeah, looking back on that I think my God, no one has struggled and just about lost it, you know. But the other thing you said, too, and I was actually thinking that the same thing when you were talking about it about the fine line, or the difference between just having a really crappy experience in that mattress since period? Or when does it get to that point of that, you know, needing medical intervention or whatever. And I was thinking the same thing. I was like, Wow, that sounds like my first experience. With my first son. I kept saying, like, my husband said to me, I reckon you've got that thing. They taught to be able to impregnate a class and like, No, I don't, I don't have postnatal depression, I'm just having a bad day, you know, and everything I could justify, I could say all night, just because I had a bad sleep all night. It's just because he didn't sit or, you know, I was telling myself these stories. And I even managed to slip through the cracks with the nurse that come round to and did like one of those cute hands or whatever. They are like the screener. You know, have you felt like this? Like, oh, I think it was like every day for the past two weeks. I was like, No, I haven't not for the past two weeks. But it's been a lot of days. But because I didn't meet those criteria. I was like, see, I have fun. So yeah, I didn't like that. There's still a lot to be said for that sort of intervention as well. But I wonder if that was it was just a really difficult period. And then because I had the next one there seven years between my kids for that reason of harrowing, not the greatest start, but I got really bad postnatal depression, and I was medicated and and almost hospitalized. But we didn't do that, because I wouldn't have been able to keep breastfeeding. So yeah, you sort of wonder if that first experience had have been a little more positive and more like sort of picked up by professionals or whatever that are maybe could have avoided the second one. I don't know.
I'm so sorry, Alison. I mean, I had a really, it's so hard. Yeah. And do you know what I think too, I think we have to really kind to ourselves, because like with each baby, it's a new start of matriculants each time. Yeah. Which I don't think people say that you think I've had one? So the second one easy, I've done it like I'm warning, you know, right out. There's a difference between having no, it's not. And then the difference between having one and two is massive. And so and for each woman, it's really different, or each person I should say especially and I'm just so sorry, that happened to you, I think it's much more common than we think. And I know now, the rates are even higher from COVID. And I do think that this system is just failing women emotionally and spiritually, particularly, I think it's really undervalued just how important it is to really care from others. And that caring that needs to begin in the early part of your life really, before you even start to have kids and then through the transition in the hospital setting and then afterwards, and then the spaces that are okay to for you to actually be able to talk about how you feeling I agree. I I suspect I had postnatal but it went undiagnosed for that reason, because it was like, Are you feeling like this everyday? Well, no, not really. And also, you've asked me so many questions about my baby and he wasn't putting on weight and he had really bad reflux and I was advocating so much to him. I felt so scared that they would be like, well, she's a bad mother. She's not doing well. He's not putting on weight. And now she's like, What feeling like this and you just feel like you can't be honest. And even if you are honest, what support is there for you? Yeah, you know, is really, really super challenging. But I think the first step is talking to someone about it and having someone on the phone I think I didn't know at the time. That for me having someone to reach out to on the phone who's like a qualified counselor who can talk to you? And they're not, you know, without judgment where you can be honest and yeah, and all that stuff and just being real about the fact that Yeah, it's really hot.
Yeah. Was like, yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't imagine having another child. Like, I just kept seeing myself in difficult situations. Like when I think about having a baby, it was all native. And that went on for, you know, almost seven years. Like it was just, I couldn't get past that. It was bizarre. Yeah. But now I've gotten two of them. And it's wonderful.
Yeah. As I've gotten older, how old are they now?
So 15 and nearly eight. So yeah, it's, I wouldn't recommend seven years age gap, if you're deliberately thinking of age gaps. They get on they get on well, at different times, depending on who's in charge, or who wants to do a particular thing. Because they are, you know, completely different places in their lives can be a little tricky. But I think the older that. Digby, my youngest, the older he gets, the easier it been for them to get on. Well, I think it's probably a fair thing to say.
I'm ready to be given a find a flat by car. Taken. No one knows me here.
That's what I was trying to say about who I was speaking to yesterday, that when were when we're thinking of becoming parents, and like you were saying, you think about what pram you're gonna get and what, you know, making your Pinterest board to make your nursery really beautiful. It's like, that should be like the last thing we do like that. It should be ingrained in our culture that you you search up, you have the support services in your phone, you know, you know, where you're gonna go, if you need help you have people who are going to make food for you all, you know, all this sort of stuff. It's, it's the after the birth stuff, when your home that you need the help with, it's the lady I spoke to yesterday, Mary, she said, she had this beautiful nursery in this beautiful car, and the baby never went in the car. She ended up giving it away. So yeah, I feel like I mean, I guess capitalism and commercialism drives that need for things to be new and pretty imperfect, and whatever, and this Instagram world where everything's got to look really good. But you know, getting back to the basics of actually caring for each other. And actually, I'm crapping on a fair bit now, but, but what I was what I noticed, when you were talking about the culture, I'm sorry, I can't remember what culture it was, but the lady you knew from your bookshop, and that basically, all she had to do is feed her baby nurse the baby, and then they'd even settle it and do everything else. And when I was in the worst throes of my postnatal depression, that was literally all I could do, I would feed him and give him back to my husband, and he would do everything else with him. So it was like, I was putting myself in that position without even you know, consciously realizing, I just needed so much help. And I was just, that was all I was capable of, and I couldn't even see myself leaving my bedroom. I had to be in my bed. You know, it was like this safe cocoon. So yeah, I was creating without even knowing I was creating that environment.
Which is really, yeah.
So interesting to hear. How
did that change for you? But over the trajectory? Was there a point where you started to feel like I've got a handle on this, now I'm starting to heal.
It took a while, like, we have, I mean, a regional town in my Gambia in South Australia. So we don't have a huge amount of services. But again, I didn't know they were there till I needed them. So it was this scramble, you know, when you need it, it's like, oh, my gosh, Googling things and whatever. But I was pleasantly surprised that we do actually have more services than I thought. So I had a a mental health nurse who would come over and just sit with us. And she wouldn't say anything. She was just there. And I got really familiar. My I think my husband, he found it a bit tricky, because he wasn't, you know, obviously he was in a different mental state than me. So he found it a bit weird that this lady was just sitting in our lounge room with us, but I really liked his, she was just there and she'd observe us and if I if I wanted to talk about things I could, and if I didn't want to, you know, she was just there and so I had her come on. For many weeks, and then one day, she said to me, I don't think I don't think you need me anymore. Because she said, she could just see the change in me physically, you know, from the first time she'd met me to, you know how I was interacting with the baby. And, you know, I was laughing a bit more, not just my demeanor had changed. And I was medicated pretty early on. So you know, you have that period of time, like, you know, three or four weeks for that to kick into your system. So that was a bit horrible. But yeah, if months, I guess my husband slept in the baby's room in a in a single bed, probably for about six months, I reckon, because I just couldn't bear the night times, they were the worst, because that was where all my triggers were when my previous baby was just being in the dark with a baby was just like, the worst thing I could imagine. So he took all that away from me. Yeah. And then one day said, Oh, do you reckon you reckon you might like to have a go or the way he said it? It was like a really kind way. It wasn't like, yeah, it was almost like a playful way. Like, do you think you might like to try and see how you go? I was like, God, not yet. No, not yet. It was sort of like no. But yeah, eventually. Yeah. So within the first year, I was back to relative normality. In my mental wellness, I think, what was
it about the dark and babies that night?
I think it was because I couldn't I had a lot of trouble settling him. And when I'd get him settled, he, he would wake up really easily. So it was like I felt trapped in there. I think it was like that. I'm in the dark. I'm by myself, like, no one else is helping me and I'm stuck here with this baby sort of thing. It was almost like a like I was Yeah. Yeah, like I was not abandoned. But I was the one that had to do it. And no one else was going to help me. sort of thing. Yeah. And yeah, it was horrible. And even in the daytime, he'd only sleep for 45 minutes. And, you know, to my detriment, I was reading this book that said, you know, you've got to get him to sleep for an hour and a half, blah, blah, blah. And so I'd be sitting in there in the dark, just patting and shushing, and patting his shushing, and this kid was ready to get up. But all the book told me I have to have to get him back to sleep. So in with my second child, are just like, I'm just going to do whatever the hell this kid wants, you know, like, he was just like, he's, he knows what he wants in his life, he wants to get up, he's gonna get up, just, you know, I just went in a completely different, completely different way. And I had a lot of time to think about it. So I had like, this list that I'd made, of all the things that I do differently. And I was actually just talking about this the other day to about and it wasn't necessarily practical things it was about myself, you know, like, don't be hard on yourself. It's doesn't matter if the house isn't clean. It's not a reflection on you how often the baby sleeps. And I was like, it doesn't matter if he has formula or if he's breastfed like it was all about taking the pressure off myself, basically. Because that's how I think I'd build up the first one, that it was all about me, I had to do everything I had to breastfeed him. You know, it was this real martyr sort of mentality, which wasn't very nice. Yeah. And
do you know what the breastfeeding thing so I really struggled with breastfeeding. And I had been told by our hospital, like classes that you know, all women can breastfeed, some just can't have the pain. It's the only best way, blah, blah, blah, yeah, I remember writing it down. So I would play with such an a kind of a like, student, I was like making my little notes and being like, well, of course, I've run long distances, I know how to push through things, I'll be fine. And when it didn't work, no one said to me, formulas, fine. No one said, actually take the pressure off. A happy mom is much better for your baby than a mum that's struggling to breastfeed in an extraordinary amount of pain. And then, remember, the advice I got was, well, what you need to do is just keep on feeding. I remember calling like the breastfeeding hotline, and they'd be like, well, you're bleeding. You just keep feeding through that. And then you're not getting much milk. So what you need to do is feed the baby then you need to express and pomp and then you need to go and give them a top up a formula, because they're not putting on weight, then will weigh them all the time, like every day coming to the hospital. And because he vomited so much, he wasn't putting on weight anyway. But then I would be basically given advice, just not to sleep. But really, because by the time you do that, do it. You're not sleeping like what did that takes two hours, and then you're feeding them every two hours because they want you to increase their weight. And so I remember doing the same thing when I went to have my daughter and she's three my son's seven and she's three. I wrote myself a note because your hormones change so much. So you think you're going to be this rational person that you are before you have your baby. And during your pregnancy. You're pretty rational for me as soon as you have the baby It all kind of goes out the window. And remember, I'm reading my note to myself that said, you are doing this for two weeks. If it's not working, your formula is perfectly fine. And your baby will be perfectly fine. And I'm so glad I did that, because I did I just against their medical advice, because they like, I remember that this beautiful pediatrician was like, Well, yeah, you can actually stop. But like, don't tell anyone that I told you that you can stop breastfeeding. What total bullshit, like, everybody is unique. Everyone's baby's unique, you are unique. If someone had said that, to me that like just like some women are great at yoga, other women produce so much milk, they come back and feed a whole village. And you like I one of the women that probably in the village who's out organizing the fields, because you don't like sitting still. And so someone else would have fed your baby. Like, it's fine. Just like some women, it's just like all of us are unique. And even the relationship I didn't realize is that some babies have a different shape now to the nipple of the woman. And so there was just no way that they'd be able to feed because the baby has to come to the party just like you do, not to mention whatever you went through during your birth. And if you had a huge impact, and then also the way that you burst now I know can have an effect on your afterbirth and your motor presence because of the type of hormones and whether there was an interruption there, whether you had trauma from that, whether you were low in iron, all of that goes into milk production. And so there's just so it's so we're so mean, in a way the system feels me Yeah, yeah. And Jaggi. And yeah, like you're doing it wrong.
Don't call me.
And I'm actually interested in your perspective on this. This is not something that I have read in a study, it's just a gut feeling that I have full caveat. I'm a very creative person. I'm really great at a lot of things, talking music, writing, doing things that scare other people. Bloody Great. Admin, cleaning, turning off on time, total garbage. Fire on a calendar can't clean the fridge. Yeah, tell you the bloody I don't know, whatever day it is, I don't know, half the time. So like I have the skill set. But the other type of skill set for motherhood, I'm real shitter. And I think now excuse my language, I'm starting to progress. But now as I get all that, and my kids are getting older, I have the skill set that I think is really suited to that. But a lot of the baby stuff is like routine, and resting and staying still all the time, and not sleeping that much. And then like being at home in the same place doing the same thing every single day over and over again. And I wonder too, if you're a highly creative person who also needs that creativity to feel fill you up and feel like you and the excitement and adrenaline of new experiences. Motherhood rock can rob you of that. And I I wonder whether that's a piece of it to that as creatives and I think we're all designed to be creative, but highly sort of creative people with that scratching their head that needs to be etched because they constantly have to make stuff. Yeah, that I wonder whether that was a piece of it too.
Huh. That's really interesting. I can totally resonate with what you're saying about cleaning. I seriously I just sometimes it's just not even on my radar. I don't even think about it. Because I'm just thinking of doing things. And I don't know. And then I think shivers, look at that carpet probably could do with a vacuum. But then do I go do it? Probably not straightaway. But you know what I mean? It's like your brain doesn't live in practical land, it lives in, I don't know, this different thing,
which is finding their bodies. And also unique and special and great. And I think part of this struggle. I've written a song on my album called this mother thing which speaks into this fact the Lyric, will you go but also say will you grow but also never change? Tiny lungs, tiny beating hearts. This mother thing is full of scars. And it's kind of this idea that as a creative, I just constantly want to be left to my own devices to get weird and make it and get excited about the world. But then also I love my kids and I want them to be with me as well. And I'm constantly in this state of juggling of how do I make being a mother and a creative work. And actually I I think part of it is, we need if you are someone that has that creative urge all the time, and you're not great at cleaning, like, we actually have a cleaning, which I know is a real privilege, but also is the probably the thing that saves me parenting, because I just otherwise, it's just a disaster. And so I now see my cleaner as part of our company, as an employee, really, and I would keep for all go many things before I let them go. Really, life which is employed, which I know is a real privilege, and not everyone has access to that. But I but what I will say is having someone and speaking to Mira from my bookstore, in a village context, you would have so many other people around to do those kinds of chores and jobs for you that the light the load is lighter. And even I'm not surprised that having a mental health nurse come and sit with you was the thing that helped is really human beings are designed to be in community and with each other. And if you just had someone else with you during those night times, who can just say it's okay, you're doing a great job, and sit down and he's a cuppa, like, not even do anything just be around. I just think some people and I think most of us as humans, we just want connection we want community, which is what we were designed to have and modern lives in our particular Western Australian context, just a really detrimental for our heads and our hearts. And as mothers, you know, like I was speaking to a woman on PBS who was telling me in Ghana, where she grew up. Like she just didn't have any identity loss as a mother because everyone was she had like aunties, uncles, cousins, brothers, Little Kids, Big kids, people were around and everyone's breastfeeding together. And she'd seen women give birth around her for a long time. So it wasn't this like hidden experience. It's same with death. Death is hidden here. But it's not in other cultures. It's a part of everything. You know, like her grandparents were buried in her front garden. You know, it's like that kind of thing, which I'm not suggesting we do. But I guess what I mean is like our humanity, our ability to be present and alive in the world and understand what motherhood really means. It is, shouldn't be something that we wait to experience until we're eight and a half months pregnant. It should be like, we're breastfeeding with 10 other women, and you've seen it happen so much. And if it doesn't work for you, there's another woman there cannot who actually could feed your baby or can tell you, your nipples. We're not it's probably not going to happen to you. Let's get you some formula. You'll be fine. You know? Exactly. Yeah. Normalizing that experience.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. When you're talking about the breastfeeding before, that was something that my first child that I was just like, I have to do this. I remember sitting at the table, my kitchen table, and my mom was there. And I was just in tears, because I couldn't get this kid to attach properly. And I pushed through eventually things got better. And I fed him for a long time. But it was like I had this, this ridiculous, controlling thing that I had to do it. And my husband was like, Oh, do you want me to just go get some formula. I was like, No, don't get the formula. I'm doing it. Like it was just irrational, basically. So then, with my second one, one of my things was like, if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't doesn't matter if he has formula, you know, 30 is best that was the thing I was telling myself not breast is best Fed is best doesn't matter how you baby gets fed. And just by a stroke of luck, I suppose not lucky for him. But when he was born, he was very, very small. And he was born by like, emergency severe. And so that's where sort of all all the started. So he was in one of those little humidity crib things, which I've been calling a hot box for a long time, but it actually has a name that I just referred to the baby in the Hotbox. So because he was in there, and he was away from me a bit. They just gave him formula. And I was like, this is fantastic. That's out of my hands. Now I haven't made this decision, you know, the pressures off me. It was just wonderful. You know, like, it was bad that he was in there. But you know what I mean? It was just the best thing that happened to me like, he couldn't live without me.
Yeah, and that means that you can get some sleep. And if you're someone that does need a lot of sleep and you're not enjoying breastfeeding, or it's hard or you don't have enough milk or a million other things, some women who take medication they need to have means they can't breastfeed. Some women have had mastectomy is like there's just like a million different reasons why you might not need you might not be able to breastfeed. And it's just not that big a deal. And obviously in an ideal world, like there are lots and lots of benefits to breastfeeding. I'm not saying there aren't there are heaps and if it had worked for me, that would have been wonderful, but this idea that somehow we need to guilt mothers about it and be so hard and I said I think that paste, I'm so passionate about women being kind to themselves in. Because I think that's where so much of this stat is. And it's not an accident because culture is hard on us, then we are so hard on ourselves. And then we compare and think about what it should be. And if my friend can't breastfeed, but that's fine for her. But no, no, no, I must have these ridiculously high standards for myself. And I think also, something I write about in my songs self. So one of the lines that song talks about, I think birth trauma, which is what I experienced, and I'm assuming you had some deaths from the to from your story. So part of is that and actually one in three women, I think the statistic in Australia at the moment experience birth trauma form, which is a giant. Yeah, and it speaks into like, then the mental health outcomes for that flow on from there. And there's lots of reasons as to why that might be the case. And part of it is the system. There's lots of things that are broken. But that song self talks about that. The first line is a woman at the start broken open now thinking that shields fail, you can hold your own damn self, your self can still prevail. I remember being told it won't hurt. Miracle can push through the pain, but I'm bleeding, just try harder. And you should be better at it all. Here, take take all this shame. And to me that feeling of shame, and failure, and you should be better, why can't you do it was at the crux of so much that I struggled with in those early days of motherhood and it wasn't just what I was putting on myself. It was the culture that I gave birth in and then some of the midwives and the doctors that I came up against who was so dismissive of me and my needs and judgmental when I couldn't make what I thought you know, what I thought was gonna happen happen with the breastfeeding piece I just think there's there's just so much room for so much compassion, knowledge and education around all of it. And love I think we need to put love back in
this love this
that's a really good point. And when you were talking about that judgment of, of medical professionals, like, this kindness, this compassion, like, it's like, I know they deliver babies every day, like they've done millions of them, whatever. But in that moment, you need a person that's gonna have your back and gonna support you like, I Sorry, I'm gonna get emotional but when the worst the thing that really now this isn't my podcast, this is your episode. But when when we arrived at a hospital to have Digby, the second one, the midwife that greeted us her first words to us, what are your late you were told to be here for an early induction. Why? Why weren't you here? And it's like, I just I almost burst into tears right then, because I have this thing. Just before like, the few days before I have a baby. I get really anxious. Like, oh my God, my life is gonna change. Oh my god, how's this gonna get out of me? Like all those big things. And on the way in the car, I was just so anxious, like both my boys have been induced. So I knew it was coming. You know, I had this time to build myself up into this frenzy of anxiousness. So when she said that I was just like, oh my god, really? Like I'm already feeling so vulnerable. And so yeah, vulnerable and she just spiked bang. And then she just kept going. It was like, Oh, he's in there waiting for you. It was like, Oh, my God, like, seriously, you're going to speak to me like this. Like I started I got really like, we're I was really upset. But I sort of tried to hold it together. And then she said something else about she wanted a a urine sample. And she just handed me the thing and just points that one just goes going there. I was like, oh my god, seriously, like it was just, I sat on the toilet and I burst into tears. And I just thought that she's not going to do this, like this is not okay. And I went back out there and I thought, okay, I can either tell her as I want a new midwife or I can just try and make peace with this woman, whatever's happened in her morning like she's bringing this to us. You know, it's obviously, you know, things aren't going well for this lady. So I basically walked out there and I put my hand on her shoulder and I said, Look, can we just start again? place. And she just took a massive sigh and she just sort of went like this. Like if she realized I think what she what she'd been doing. And she was totally different from that point. Apart from pride at the end, where we went for the urgency Cesar and she went and stood next to the wall like I can literally see an hour I'm pointing it was at the wall stood at the side of the wall with a back to the wall and just left me to it. And I was so afraid. And so like, because they'd already stuffed up my epidural. So I could still feel my contractions on one side of my body, he put it up too high. And so my at one point, my lungs, like my breathing was compromised. All these sort of, you know, stuff was happening. So I didn't trust that they were going to get this beat, right? Like I was in fear that I was going to feel everything that was my biggest fear. And so they were like, holding like a bag of ice on me. Can you feel that? And I said, I can feel the pressure, like Piglet, but can you feel cold? Like they were like, not attacking me, but they were like, Can you feel that sort of thing? It's like, but I can I can feel you touching me am I supposed to feel that, you know, I was there using their medical terms. And I'm using my like, and I can feel you touching me. So I was just in total fear. And thank God, this beautiful, amazing theater nurse came over and she held my hand and she stroked my head and she said, I know you're scared, it's going to be okay, we're all here to help you. And I burst into tears because like thank god, somebody cares for me sort of thing. You know, it was, again, maybe they've got themes of abandonment and stuff going on. But somehow I needed someone to help me. And she was amazing. And that entire that entire Severian I could obviously feel them pulling and whatever. But I laid there in fear because any second now I thought, I'm going to feel something really painful. Like I was just so afraid. Plus officer I was afraid for my child because he's, you know, he had to be gotten out quickly. Yeah, just this this kindness, kindness and compassion. And even you know, people mean well, but like, in my sister and I both talked about this, like nurses that had come in to help you breastfeed or whatever. What are you doing that for here? Or what's wrong here? What's wrong today, but just the language they use? I was in tears at some point because some woman just looked at me and said, What's the matter with you today? And I was like, Whoa, like just sent me off. Like, you know, you're so vulnerable when you read the you know, you feel like every nerve endings exposed and everything is going to set you off and then someone says something so off the cuff and they don't mean anything by it. But you just lose it. It's like they don't know that you know, they don't see that they're everything they do has an impact on us at that time. So yeah, compassion love caring after all, oh,
sorry. Sorry for that experience. And I hope you leave the scene because I owe more stories that we can share my tears now.
I know it's hard on it
tell you that shame isn't your to hold your body
let it sink in.
see your beautiful, wonderful
you're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom. I will certainly
do you know what I know now having spoken to a lot of women in this space, and there's a podcast episode I did with a friend of mine, Kim Beale, who's a woman client physio, and she does birth preparation and lots of things. She said one of the number one things to indicate that you're going to have a good birth is feeling safe. Because when you think about a cat, they will go under the house in a really dark warm spot. It's really enclosed. It's very quiet, in order for your body to do the things that it actually needs to do and it naturally should do. You need to feel so safe and your body needs to know that you're safe. It's not even just your mind. It's your body as an entity needs to breathe that safety and that calmness. And it's so fragile and precarious. So if you have a person like I had a woman when I went into labor and I started singing into the pain, I was told to shut up get back on the bed, you'll exhaust you Stop making that noise. Oh my god. Yeah. And I now know that singing into contractions. If you're a music person, or just anyone that has that vibration is perfect. It's perfect for opening new opening your cervix allowing for you did give the and I just think that even just that interruption let alone how that woman spoke to you and I had other interactions with her, of course your body when you're already anxious, and then your body is supposed to open. Of course things are gonna go right not to mention intervention and sometimes intervention is necessary. But there's so much research showing that if you intervene early, then things are more likely to be more painful, like with inductions and things I was induced to. And things just cascade and having that power and the knowledge that you need to set up this birth space for you. In however that looks however weird, you might think it is particularly as a creative being. Like I think about what I like and need when I'm making music. When I'm in my zone. I didn't think about my birth like that. I thought about it like a medical procedure, when actually I needed some weird and wonderful dark space with like insane music and candles and like, really cool witchy women in with me. So I could sing my way through it, you know, and it happened with my daughter. But by that point, I'd had such a sort of difficult birth injury for my son, that I had a planned cesarean with her because I just couldn't envision having lifelong or worse injuries and I already had with him. And in hindsight now I kind of wish that I had been able to have a birth where I felt I could sing her into the world. And it still breaks my heart. Because she's a singer she already singing. As a three year old, my son is so creative too. And I I get so sad thinking that I could have sung her into the hook her very first sign of life was this vibration. And I also think that's not my fault. And it's not something that I'm just I'm sad about. And I think it's important to acknowledge you can feel sad, but not beat yourself up about it. You're stuck in a system that isn't designed for you. And so I'm sorry, that experience happened to you too. So sorry. And I also feel like for other women going forward for my daughter, I'm just so passionate that she can find if she decides to have kids. If my little boy decides to have kids like that they've got all this knowledge they're armed with so that it may not go the way you plan in Him there will say that in that tonight's episode, like it may still go awry, you may still end up with an emergency subject to them. But if you've got this kind of birth map, where you know from the outset, right, when I get in there, these are the people that are going to be there, I know them and they know me, they care about me. That's a big one. They really care about me, whoever they are whoever they look like, if they're a midwife, I've known for years for my pregnancy, if they're a friend who's also human birth, who's going to make me feel safe. But then if things go wrong, these are all the different things that will happen. Because then if you feel in control and educated, you're less likely I was terrified to go I had surgery afterwards. And that fear of you just not trusting that they will do the right thing. And that's smart, because they hadn't didn't do the right. They stuffed up your you know, Fe juror which happened to a friend of mine to hers fell out of her back. And no one believed her. They said we put it in you can't be feeling anything, you know, like that. There's also inherent misogyny in the system that stems from that Christian Christianity really and that idea that Eve was cursed in childbirth. And so from that point on, you can see that in the medical profession, that women's pain overall is just less acknowledged less believed. The babies as well for my son's reflux. It took me six months to get a diagnosis. They just don't believe you weird, a particular and they think like endometriosis, all of these different conditions. I speak to another naturopath called Freya, Lola, about endo and chronic stress and hormones. I'm just so passionate that women get as much information not only about their birth, but also about menopause. How we go through our birth will affect how we menopause, about how we integrate our hormones, about the changes in our bodies and how our hormones fluctuate how to care for and eat better. So that when we do have these hormonal changes when we enter perimenopause, which I didn't even know it feedback. So that we write that we know why we feel rage, why we feel exhaustion, why we feel brain fog and how to eat and exercise around those things. And part of it is bringing our stress levels down, thinking about what our life looks like, and whether it's actually sustainable in its current form. It's there's so much care and knowledge that needs to be put back in that we used to have that's been taken from us. Even talking about periods and all that stuff without shame. Like, I just think it's just so important. And I think podcasting is a great medium for that, too, during having these discussions, because, and having like, What are you talking about your birth like that? I'm so hopeful there's someone listening to these studies and midwife or a doctor or an obstetrician or someone in the hospital setting, because I have found that with telling my story and my songs now that I do, and I did a live show over the weekend, where I did the same thing. Because so many of the women I've met since who are midwives on maternal health nurses have said to me, yes, I can imagine exactly who that woman was that Pat said that to you. I've met her I've met someone like her. But also, it's a great reminder for us, because we are just ticking boxes, we're going through the motions, we're exhausted, we're tired, we're underfunded and devalued. And so like that woman you met, you've had her she's lived her whole life before she's got there. And so being reminded that for each woman that comes in this is life or death, for her that view, it might be the seventh woman you've seen for the day, and how precarious and fragile, and in need of love and care we are in those spaces and, and allowing us to bring the love of the people in our lives, if we're lucky enough to have them into that room, or at least the people that we'd like to be there and not just thinking it's a purely medical thing. Because I think that would have made a difference. And at So, anyway, gosh, how did we get to here?
But no, I have got a couple of medical people that listen. And there's one midwife in particular, who often will message me after some episodes, and be like, suggest, they'll suggest the name of maybe the doctor that I talked about, or someone they know, like, we're anywhere relatively smallish. I mean, we're not a small town, but we're a small regional center. So most people know who people are. So you know, if you're listening, Yvonne Hi. Hello.
And I will say as well, through this work I've been doing taking this album around the kind of like that. So So for example, on Sunday, at the Wesleyan, there was this old pub, it was it used to be a church, and they've made this kind of bandroom we had candles everywhere. And all these women came it was so incredible. And just like midwives and maternal health nurses, women who are physios and women who are interested in birth, women who are just moms who've, like had a rough trot or just brought their mother's group along. And then there were couples that came in. We had Lauren Beatty, who's a psychologist who now runs these sessions called maternal journal, which are bringing mothers into circle to journal and make basically a very experiences. And so she spoke about the treatments. And then I played my story and my songs. And we all crying, it was like a pack sold out roots. So completely happened. Still wild to me. But just the feeling that people kept said to me afterwards, I feel lighter, I feel seen, I feel connected. I feel like so many other women in my life are going through something that I didn't know that well, their birth story, they told me in a kind of funny way, but now I actually understand how traumatic it was for them. And I noticed when the show finished, rather than people leaving, they all sat for ages having a glass of wine, just like laughing and talking. Yeah, that's that. That's really I mean, starting to do regional shows now because I do think women in regional areas, from what I've heard from you too much more isolated in lots of ways. And I did did one in yackandandah. And when in my whaler recently, I'm doing another one in ships. And I'm just really passionate now about taking the show on the road. going make women cry all over the country. All alone out. There but really, it's that meeting of all of the professionals in the space and the women who have cared for them, by them kind of connecting and bringing empathy back in and understanding.
Can you come down here plates? genuinely love? Yes, seriously? Seriously? They will be. We have to talk about that after.
Totally. I'm actually planning a show in Newcastle. And I'm thinking about going to the Northern Rivers, planning little adventures. I'm actually also been invited to go to the UK would leave it in Chile, so no oh my god for two weeks. I'm going over there with Amy Taylor to bad season. Oh, yeah. I know, she reminded me I know. You're gonna go play music to women in the UK and Ireland, and Scotland. And just for two weeks, I'm taking my music producers EQs 30 is like big burly biker tats. He's like, gonna play music with me. And he's a lot of fun. So very special. But yeah, let's talk. I would love that.
Yes. Now, I've just realized that I haven't asked you about your children. Here are kids.
I have to one of these three, my daughter and then my son is eight. He'll be eight in October.
Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So I think coming to England, are you having a
child, I'm going on my own. So I talked about lucky. He's amazing. And also, we just co parented from the very beginning, we have lucky like that we both worked from home in the company together. So he's probably a better parent means always. He's much more routines and like, he's great. So I'm very, very lucky to have that. And also family support to so yeah. A long time need to be away. But
how and how are you feeling about that? But one of the topics that and I'm not wondering, like leading you into this to say that you have to feel this way. But I'm just linking it together, that we have, we have this thing called mum guilt in our society, unfortunately. Are you feeling you know, apprehensive about going or leaving them? Because you're going to do something that doesn't involve them? Or you'd like, Yes, I'm going,
Okay, this people put up here, we're going to turn the podcast off. Once I save you know, that guilty in the beam. In the beam, I have huge amounts of guilt about a lot of things over time I was raised Catholic, it's part of it, the guilty, giant, giant guilt. And so but what happened to me over the past couple of years speaking to a woman after woman person after person was I started to hear this guilt month or guilt being like of the wanting to be with them, but wanting to be a way that this mother thing some speaks into this constant struggle. And I just realized, I ran hard at this creative project last year, for the first time in my life, I prioritize my work over my husband's, I prioritized it over a lot of other admin things and cleaning, and I just threw myself into it with as much gusto as I possibly could. Partly to save myself, I think because I was at such a low point, that was the thing that brought me back into myself. And what I've realized is, I thought, my kids would a suffer hate me, I'm the worst parent, everyone's gonna think I'm a terrible mother, all of this stuff. And that was my greatest fear in doing that. And so I didn't do it for a very long time. But what was kind of interesting about throwing myself into this work and creating something I'm so proud of is that, like, my son started drawing me for the first time, he usually draws like Pokemon transformers, and sometimes he's dead. And it's dead. There I am. Front and center in his drawings is a big heart on my chest with me standing on a stage. And he sees me as a person, not only as his mum, which is a really special thing. I know. Also, I'm privileged to have a partner who is on board, and I trust completely with all of it. That part of doing that was also writing down the list of everything I was doing for the mental load. So there's been a lot of layers, but it didn't happen overnight. The guilt in the beginning, like a lifelong process, will probably backstory, who knows, but I sat down with him. And I wrote down everything that I did in our lives, like I did the admin for our company, I facilitated so much of his creative work. Plus all the kids stuff. I wrote it down from the get go in my new detail, for example, uniforms. What size are they where to buy them from? How much are they? How many pairs? Like, yeah, he did the same. And I thought maybe it would be when we looked in. It was so powerful to see though that because he thought it was equal really, he's a one he's so aware and maybe that he could finally see all of the things and now I don't micromanage anything anymore. He takes on board like so many things. And I it's not a boss employee relationship. It's a Boss Boss. So he'll be like the vaccination did you I booked the GP appointment or the kids, this person's going to a party and I bought the present, I'm going to drive them, it's on Sunday at 10 o'clock. Like, that enabled me to fully expand into this credit project. And so the mother guilt thing, I just don't think serves us, I just don't think guilt is a is a helpful emotion. I think rage is, I think love is I think empathy is I think compassion is I think being critical, in a way, particularly in your art are like self critical. But in a way that's like I would call it as when I was a primary school teacher, being a critical friend, you know, like being real with yourself about like, what you could improve on. But the guilt thing doesn't help anyone. So I'm still going to do it anyway. So or what am I going to do spend the whole time feeling bad about the fact that I'm enjoying myself, like, get in the bin, that it would say, I love these, this idea of tempering joy, and I grew up doing this a lot that like I can enjoy this too much. Because something bad will happen? Or what if this happens, or like seeing your kids asleep? And you're like, Oh, this is beautiful. What if they die? You know, like, Oh, I do like to fail them? You know, like, yeah, we tempering our joy, but it doesn't actually change the outcome. So now I'm trying as best I can mangle in the been fully running towards the creative project that I get to do feeling bloody lucky and privileged that I'm getting to make it knowing that I think it's important to me as a human, for my kids and for my daughter to see me making and doing and being a full happy person. And oh, well if they go to school and their uniform labels peeling a bit. And I know they've had to forage around the back of the cupboard for some biscuits put in their lunchbox, so be it.
Yeah, oh, yeah. Absolutely. That's it, isn't it. And that this whole, I don't know that what we're trying to do, of breaking that cycle and changing this patriarchal society and all these things we've talked about with health care and mental wellness and things like it has to start somewhere. And if we keep showing their kids, that what we're doing is okay, and acceptable, then they'll just keep doing it in their next generation. So we have to make the changes, and we have to let the kids see the changes.
Because kids will do much more of what they see than what you tell them and what you want. And when I've had my daughter, especially but for my son, just the same. What I want him to be is a person that isn't always happy because no one's happy all the time. But is content finds work that feels the map is purposeful, that has meaningful relationships that is kind to themselves, that notices the world and is curious about the world that understand their place in things and feels connected. And for them to be that I need to be that. And I'm not going to be that by obsessing over whether or not I've mopped the floors every day and how perfect my hair looks and whether my kids are perfect. Like I have a friend who I text MSC cupboards to. And I love that. That's good. Friends you miss, find them over when your house is a disaster zone, not when you've spent like an hour being sweaty and crying, fixing it. So perfect. So when they arrived, you're like, Oh, this is the, you know, like, and obviously I still do that too, because I carry a lot of shame around making things clean and having that organized stuff. But I think that's the real stuff. That's connection. That's what heals us. That's what makes us whole and that will make our kids whole let me tell you, they're not going to remember how perfect your house was. But they will remember how they made how you made them feel. And what they see do in the world.
Yes, so well said absolutely. Yeah. Love that. Oh, do you feel like I'm gonna shake myself down? You know, we need things and you're like
yeah, that's actually that's that's a real appeal. That's what I didn't get on the show. And like ducks do and honestly, you just have to shake off that shake up all the stories and the emotion like genuinely that's why we should do it more. Oh, yeah. Really? Yeah.
Yeah, like there's a sock on Play School about shaky sillies out and like you let's we got to get it out of here. So then you could sit down because actually, that's fine yoga, they do all the assignments and then you sit down and meditate afterwards. It's like you've got all the movement.
Yeah, yeah, I totally I think so much of healing is movement. And often now I've thought to myself, it's body to mind for me anyway. Like talk therapy is great as well and has its place but I think I met committees like getting your body right getting you got health right?
Yeah. And that's yeah, that's something else but science is finally catching up with like, you know Western medicines finally realizing that we're naturopaths have been right for so many years love it when the heavens likes me
I was thinking about my friends and hate him. When you walk across the room, I couldn't help us. Sad Hello
You sad hello
what I wanted to mention to you, I've been listening to your our, the matrices album on Spotify, which it's just, it's such a I don't know, it feels so reassuring. And I think from people that have been through this stuff, when you listen to it, it just makes you like you said it makes you feel heard. It makes you feel validated. But there's a couple of tracks that I was really, I thought were pretty cool feature to have. And at the start, you've got this incredible, like, inhale and exhale, and love. Was that like a deliberate thing? Or did you accidentally do that and then decide to leave it in there. Cuz I just love it.
Look, I yelled done it now. So why that particular inhale happened when I wrote that song. When I sang, right? What I do is get very still. And I wrote that song in the back room of my singing teachers studio, as by myself. Very rare to get that as a mom, I think, but that's what I needed. It's almost meditative for me. And that song came out in about 20 minutes.
I love it. When that happens. It's like, you know that it's meant to be like that don't yeah, it's just yeah, it just pours out of you. Yeah, it's like
a creature, I feel. And that particular moment was that was when I record the way I write because I have a voice memo recording, so that I can just capture it all. Sometimes I'll be walking and stuff. And I'll capture that. But I had the voice memo on and if you listen really closely, there's like a feedback speaker as well, kind of making a sound that we then used in the track. And also, there's breath as beat track that runs through it. And yeah, that was from the original the moment when I wrote it. Took this like inhale, exhale, breath to kind of center myself. And then I wanted it left in there. That song was the first one I brought to zekiel Feminine music producer. And he seems on my other staff. And that was a brand new one and written like the day before. And I was like this is what I had. So clearly in my head. I wanted to snare drum run through it. I wanted this to use that breath and use that speaker sound and yeah, so we use the original voice memo, quite a lot of them in the in the album have that original voice memo recording.
Wow. Oh, that's awesome. That's so cool. I love that. And the other thing I really liked too, is in one of the tracks free I think it is with this. There's a child counting like bringing in the template is that wonderful kids to either that's my daughter.
Yeah. And you know, she was jumping off a bed. That's the same. That's a voice memo. She was jumping off the bed and just counting yourself down and check yourself again again. She's their own biggest, super loud and joyful and I just grabbed my voice memo on my phone and recorded it. And I will say that for anyone who's a songwriter, that voice or an app that Mike's actually really great.
Quality is very good.
I just like captured it and then I took it to Zeke and was like, I want to add this into free and Saturday.
Yeah, yeah. I love that. It's like, oh, no, like, it reminds me of years ago, I went to a training call of training course a local person that was telling people how to run their Instagram accounts. And they said, You've got to keep like, because she did a like a one on one with her. And she said you've got to keep your own account, your private account separate to your singing account. You've got to create a new account just for you. And Kevin, keep you singing one I'm like, but that's me. Like that's who I am. And she's like, No, but that's that's like your business that's you think I'm like, but that's an I didn't do it because she was telling me to take all these things out and change them. It's like, but everything that's in that account is inspiration to me like my children are a massive inspiration to me. And I love that. You've got that crossing over it in your actual music that you're releasing of, of your children. And you're singing like it's literally the two worlds are together. I just love that.
I love that. Thank you. That's such a big compliment. I agree with you. I I think people have a lot of opinions about how you should do the things. And I really think for me, that you just have to follow your gut really deeply. And the thing that you know, the most and the best is your lived experience. And when you make art that deep seated place, like and, and you can feel like it's small and very specific and kind of weird. But actually, everyone's their own special, unique brand of weird. And you're more likely to touch people when you're making art from these really specific, close places. And I think that was social media, which is this kind of unfortunate base that we're all in. But connecting. And yeah, I don't have a separate one for you know, it just all leaves in my account. Really, I have someone else that runs one futons pod into decimal, but we don't do much on there. Because really, I just Yeah, I want to make it from that place. And I don't speak too much about my kids. And I don't use their names because I'm also conscious, I want them to choose how they represent themselves when they decide to. But definitely, I wanted to just be to operate my music and my art and the same with my podcast as much. With as much heart and integrity and honesty as I could. Because that's what I needed. Like I really did it selfishly. I think there's a mate and amazing book, Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. Have you read that? No, I haven't. I do love it as a creative. It's just like, I go back to that book, like the Bible every so often, just like her voice just seems out at you. And there's a really great section which talks about Tom Waits and his songwriting, and how he sees songwriting as creatures, which I had never, I've always felt like that and songs following me around. And I just thought everyone had that turned out. No, not the case. They were gonna get drunk and then write songs into their phone in the toilet cubicle. I thought that was I thought that was um, everyone that you know that he she there's a section in there about his creativity and songwriting and he talks to his songs and like, Come on, mate, you gotta get on the bus. Stop mucking around. Anyway. But this particular would be magic is so much great advice for creatives. And one of the things you said is for the love of God, don't make something for everyone else make it for you. And then if other people love it cool, like she's the author of Eat, Pray Love. She said, she wrote that book for her. Turns out lots of other people saw themselves in it. But yeah, that's so that's so the whole album I made. For me, I listened to those songs like friends when I was struggling in different parts of my life, which sounds weird that you might listen to your own music, but on their friends, their friends of mine, I wrote them, because that's what I needed in particular moments. And I seen them in particular moments. When
we spent so long making good girls come read through as we wrap that up, we're gonna tear down this k two rounds, because we
had this conversation. I can't remember who it was with now, but it was someone to do with music, the music industry, and it's like, it's literally an industry, it is a money making machine. And if you're going to try and get into that, you've got to be prepared to let go of who you are, and what your voice has got to say. Because you're not going to be doing it for yourself, you're going to be doing it for someone else who's trying to make money out of you. So it's like, don't write music for other people. That was literally where we're going. We're going with it. Same thing. Like if someone resonates with what you've written, that's amazing. That's like that connection is incredible. But that's not why you do it. You know? Yeah.
Yeah. And I think that's, um, I guess where I would say too, it's such a privilege and my, my therapist, Jules, who's just this incredibly amazing person and a creative to just says to me, don't put the guilt in the bin. Don't talk about like age, or where you're at or shoulda Coulda, Woulda, all that bullshit, bow down to the altar of the fact that you have the time and resources to make the art you want to make. And I'm at a point in my life. And I'm very privileged to say this, that I can make the music I want because it's completely independently funded. And I can do it how I want and the power of that, I think and at this time in my life as a mom, not a lot of women have that space and time in their life when I'm writing from this particular moment. On this new URL The Parenting phase when the kids are little. And I'd also say to that I couldn't have written this music. When I first had my newborn. I needed enough time to pass. Someone said this. You can't write from trauma you have to write from the scar. And I think that's really valuable advice to.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, yes. Because we're going to talk about myself. Now, again, because I haven't done enough of it on your podcast clear that I've been at the very end of an album that I've been working on, for, I'd say almost three years about my posts now depression. And it's only six tracks. But do you think I could do it within you know, any cricket? No, because I think that's the thing you have to, you have to let time go. And also be able to mean, you have a lot of my stuff I've written from the point of view as back in there. And that's really hard to go back into. So sometimes you have to let a lot of time go before you're ready to actually go. Okay, I can go back into this now without make letting myself I'm not going to fall apart. If I think about it. You know what I mean? Yes, I think that's very true. That that I'm saying, Yeah,
I can't wait to hear that album.
No, neither can I No, it's, it's so different. Like my first album, I made, what 2019. And it's all just very, very under produced. It's like acoustic instruments, there's a couple of upbeat tracks. But this is just like, hardcore. They calling it a duck pop. So it's like, there's a lot going on. And this the tracks run chronologically from when it first came when I first got the post out depression, like couple of days in hospital, up to happy, wonderful land. So the tracks, you know, from the musical standpoint, like through the instrumentation, and the treatment of the songs tell that story too. So I'm really, really happy with with how it's gone. And yeah, it's, it's been a long time, but I don't know it. I think it just had to be that way. You know, things just happen when they happen. And also need to person.
Yeah, but I totally agree with you that things got takes time. And really good art and truthful art takes as long as it's gonna take. Yeah, and you want to just feel like you've left nothing on the table?
Or yeah, yeah. And that was I'm particularly felt like that with this. Because, I mean, who knows? What, if I'm gonna get another opportunity to, to, you know, have an album come out, you know, you just don't know what life will give you. And I don't know, I'm a little bit conscious to that, you know, because I'm an independent artists that the money's not coming from elsewhere. So it's like, you know, am I being really self indulgent, using, you know, family's money to do this thing. So it's like, I wanted to do give it the best go, it could have, you know, and make all the sounds that I wanted it to make and go back and forth with the producers because they're in Spain and Argentina, the people I'm working with, so Wow, it's like I've, if I'm the sort of person I've been a bit of a people pleaser, sometimes with my music. If someone's had a suggestion, oh, yeah, that sounds fine. And really, inside, I'm going no, I don't like that at all. But I don't want to rock the boat. I don't want to be the person that causes trouble. I want you to like me, you know, that sort of stuff. But with this, I've gone no, I'm paying you to make this. And I don't have to talk to your face to do it. So I'm going to tell you if I don't like something, which I really haven't had to do much off. To be honest, they've been pretty amazing. But yeah, be conscious of, of, you know, you never know when you'll get your last shot at something. That sounds really morbid, but not I'm not talking like a mike die necessarily. I'm just it's like, you know, I'm 40 How old am I? 45. I hope my voice lasts forever. But I mean, I've had to, I've also had two rounds of COVID. So I don't even know. Like I tried to sing yesterday. And it wasn't that great. So I don't know if my voice is actually permanently damaged from you know, COVID pneumonia. COVID. Again, bronchitis for the last six months, like who knows, you know, just in general life. So anyway, sorry, I'm rambling a bit now. But
no, you know, it makes so much sense. It absolutely. Isn't the right I can really believe that. And I think I like you know, it's jewelry for the inside of people's mind. So it doesn't matter. No. But also, yes, absolutely. All of it matters. It's the most important thing. And I think that's that that was inescapable talks about that those two things can be absolutely true. That if you're going to make something you make it absolutely the absolute best that you can and and I think as women, particularly we're socialized to not be difficult to want people to like have all of that stuff. But we just need to you need to trust your own instincts in your own gut and go it's not good enough, not good enough. It's not good enough. And I want it to be this I want it to be that this is my vision and and I think blokes have been doing that for a very particular white boy. For a very long time, you know, and I think the more interesting art is coming from that place where you, you don't want to ever think that you've got to the end of it and gone. Just that bit. What if I'd taken that risk? What if I, you know, go back into the work when you think it's done? And you're like, well, it'll probably do No, you'd go back in, you'd go back in and dig a bit deeper. And you and that's what I think I felt at the end of my album that like, however it comes, whatever happens after this point. I know that thing within the introverts life, I decided how you know, and I worked with Zeke, and I was lucky in that he was really amazing to work with. And also could do what I wanted, and I could hear it, but I could tell him, no, that's not what I want. This is what I want and change it and put ego out of it. And yeah, so I was very lucky in that collaborative process. But I think also I just, yeah, like you were saying, you just want to feel like you've given it your absolute best shot. So you're proud of it? Yeah, then you walk with it in the world. It doesn't matter if anyone else likes it or not. You are proud of it. Yeah, that's it is, you know, every inch of it. And you can be like, well, look at this thing. That's amazing that I've done. And then you know, in your heart when it's really as good as you could have made it, you know, yeah.
Oh, yeah. And that's the thing, like, too, you know, you're talking about hearing bits and thinking are, you know, I wish I had done that I do that so much with my first album, and to the point where I actually recorded some of the songs with other people, with other producers, and did remixes of them, because I just felt like, and also, it was very rushed. Like, we did it in two weeks. And it was just, I'd never recommend doing that. My mom wouldn't do it again. So I take three, so the next one. But yeah, it's just like, bang, bang, it's got to be done. And it's like, no, there's so much that I listened to and I think, Jesus, I wish I'd said something about that. But then, you know, over time, I have the opportunity to, to re record things, which is also privilege, up through the whisper, laugh. Do I think I need you to let me show you.
Want to ask you about when are you going to
the UK. So it's just happened a couple of days ago. So I'm going I'm leaving on the 28th of June. I'm going over there for the first of July, most likely for a conference, I'm playing in a conference and then I'm just going to be touring. So I'm currently figuring out how to do that, what venues to go to where to play. I'm going to Exeter there's a group of women down there who are running mothers who make which are these big kind of motherhood, creativity stuff. So going there to do some, a little couple of songs in shows. But really, I'm going on my own same with my music producers at an a&e. And yeah, just putting on shows probably ticketed shows in pubs and that kind of stuff, learning how to do that as I go. But yeah, really super excited about it. And then I actually have a show in Sydney on the 30th of July at the great club in Marrickville.
Oh, yes, I know. Alison, who runs it? She used to live in that game. Yeah, yeah. She's pretty awesome seeing it yourself.
Wow. Yeah. Well, I sort of I saw that there was women running it. And I thought I want to be involved in that. And I haven't actually been there to the venue. But I've, from what I've seen, it looks really cool. So I've actually got Amy Taylor kebabs. He's going to speak first. So she's doing a speech about my dressing. And then I performed my album. And there's a dancer from Sydney called Aryan Basten, who's also an author that her book on perinatal mental health is coming out this year. And she's written about her experience of postnatal psychosis. But she actually sent me a dance that she'd created to my song self over Instagram. That just blew me away. I didn't know anything about her story. I just saw her dancing. And I saw in her movement that she understood me.
She's that's pretty, that's pretty powerful. And
so she's going to perform duet with me. So I'm going to sing self, which is that song about breastfeeding and, you know, woman at the start broken open now and that story, so she's going to dance and I'm going to see, Amy will speak and we're going to tell stories. And yeah, so Tickets are available now for that, and that's on the 30th of July.
Oh, beautiful. Well, I'll put the link to your website in the show notes. And so people can click on there and see all your goodies. It's a lovely website Who does your drawings of like on your hour? and your little icons and things.
My friend, Annabel one. So she's an illustrator from Melbourne. She's a friend of my brothers Actually, she's great. And I had a vision for the image of the front cover, and I do it in pencil. I'm a terrible visual artist. But I had the vision of it. And so she kind of brought it to life.
It's lovely. Got the like, the heart is like exposed. It's like, yeah, we'll talk about that a bit about your ID for that front cover.
Yeah, so I wanted an image that would capture how I felt when I became a man. And, to me that, it's like having you everything's exposed as like a raw nerve. And also, I think, that idea of an open heart, you are changed. And your heart is now kind of walking around in the world without you sometimes they're at school at your kids. And I wanted to show like, also, like, I'm not wearing any, it's not nude painting, but at the I don't have any like clothes on, you can just see me down to my clavicles with my open heart. It's kind of also reminiscent of sort of biblical art as well. And I got the inspiration to from Florence and the machines album lungs, you know, she has her lungs exposed on her artwork. Yeah, right. Yeah. So but really, I wanted an image that would capture all of it, because I actually when I drew that image, I didn't know I was gonna call it my presence. I didn't know that word. I just was writing what I was feeling. And the songs aren't just about motherhood they're about because of the complexity of being human really, and having big feelings. And so for me, I'm a very deeply feeling person, and my heart is very close to my skin all the time. So that's what I wanted to capture.
Yeah, yeah. No, it definitely works. It's Yes, really good.
Shoulder to face.
So many faces go to places where we get to find books and battles, songs and schemes, somehow left,
is there anything else you want to mention before I let you go? A lot today.
Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. I'll look, I would just like to say if you're a mom listening to this, you're doing a great job, be kind to yourself, give yourself a massive hug, make a cup of tea, put your feet up, if you can. So that I would love to say again, what I would also say is if you want to find me, I'm on Instagram at Claire 20. That's probably where everything lives. My website, Cliff twenty.com Is the other spot where you can find about all my events and ticketing, all of that stuff. And I've got beautiful t shirt designs too. So if you like the artwork, you can t shirt with some of them on there's a moss, which is this Each song has its own symbol. So when you come to my show, I give you a lyrics booklet, like a an old school CD cover that has a artwork for each song. And each one has a symbol. So self has the mark because it's the idea of transformation in the darkness. And moths seek light. And to me that's what motherhood and mothering was, in those times so much time spent in the dark, waiting for the light to come. And I was transforming and I didn't realize so that's that kind of I have a T shirt with the math on it for that reason. Really powerful symbol. Lots of things to do with the moon as well, really. So yeah, you can find me over there. I have records as well. I would also say my podcast tons. The new season will be coming out later in the year. But I've got three seasons worth of really rich discussion with women and diverse voices about lots of topics. If you're particularly interested in chronic stress and hormones and you're feeling depleted, gone find that episode with fryer will tell you you won't regret it. It's the story of how I healed outside of music. Everything I did from food and medication and looking at diet and testing and just lots of things that helped me recover from long COVID symptoms. Yeah, that's a really valuable one. And, and yeah, come to a show and if you want me to come play in your area, I bloody love to I'm looking for places to come and bring the music so if you're someone out there that thinks your group of parents or women or community would like some music hit me up.
Yeah, good on you. Oh, look. Thank you Claire. It's been so lovely and thank you for spending so much time with me today. We just looked at the clock. Just always made it to Uh, well before my little stuff up in the middle you know what, you know how I fixed the camera? I literally turned the computer off and on and then I started working
that's The IT Crowd isn't it?
Have you tried turning it off and on? I always joke about that someone made a joke once about if your car wasn't working you just get out shut the door open get back in again. And it should work.
It's like a computer we often think that human beings are the same sometimes you just need to turn ourselves off
face it yeah right yeah
that's what people who do me a favor just go radical rest. I'm really all about that. Reading on Nast. Oh, just bloody. Yeah, so much can be solved in life with a bit more rest. I know that's a privilege but I also think some of the things we do we do out of obligation and guilt checking in the bean and have a nap.
Yes, there you go. Chuck it in the bin. That's that's the theme of this show today chuck in the
thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum