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Beck Feiner Australian illustrator S3 Ep78 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Welcome to the new season, season 3! It's so great to have you here, from wherever you are in the world My guest to start the year is Beck Feiner, Beck is an Aussie illustrator and designer based in Sydney, and a mum of 2. When Beck was growing up she was an avid drawer, keenly supported by her mum. Like many artists and creative people, when it came time to decide what career to pursue, Beck didn't think that being a working artist was possible, and turned to study design and became a graphic designer. After being inspired to create her own alphabet poster when her first child was young 8 years ago, she created her Aussie Legends Alphabet poster , this was subsequently turned into a book and from this she signed a publishing deal. Beck co-creates books with her husband Robin. With Beck illustrating and Robin writing. they have created 6 books together, Beck describes her style as vector-based conceptual illustrative art, embodying bold colours and punchy graphics. Beck uses her art to provide commentary on current social and political issues.. She is passionate about breaking down stereotypes and including children in the breaking down of cultural norms and encouraging kids to become more involved in political and leadership issues at a young age. Connect with Beck - website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, then we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone take people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Welcome to season three. It's great to have you here from wherever you are in the world. I hope you are able to have a restful and loving holiday season. Whatever you celebrate, what do I celebrate? My guest to start the year is BEC finer. Beck is in Australian illustrator and designer based in Sydney, and she's a mother of two that speck was growing up. She was an avid drawer. Like many artists and creatives, when it came time to decide what career to pursue. Beck didn't think that being a working artist was possible and turned to study design and instead became a graphic designer after being inspired to create her own alphabet poster when her first child was young. Eight years ago, she created her Ozzie Legend's alphabet poster. This was subsequently turned into a book and from there she signed a publishing deal that CO creates books with her husband Robin, with Beck illustrating and Robin writing, and they have done six books together. Beck describes her style as vector based conceptual illustrative art, embodying bold colors, sharp lines, and back uses her art to provide commentary on current social and political issues. She's passionate about breaking down stereotypes, and including children in the breaking down of cultural norms, and encouraging kids to become more involved in political and leadership issues at a young age. Thank you for being here. And I hope you enjoy today's chat. Welcome to the podcast Beck it's absolute pleasure to welcome you and to have you today. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, it's a pleasure. So you're and Ozzy is lovely to hear a fellow Australian accent I've been talking to a lot of people from overseas. Really? Nice. We're about to you based in Sydney, right in the middle of Sydney. Oh, I always have to live in the hustle and bustle of everything everywhere. I mean, I've lived in London and few other places but I like to be in the grip of things. holding me gritty. I know it's very pretty but you know where the action is where exactly Yeah, that's exactly the opposite to me into CDs that Oh, really? It's so funny. I love to have a break but I can't have a Yeah, I'm either gonna be right in the action or like somewhere quite removed from it, you know, one or the other? I think because I grew up in the burbs the burbs kind of kills me a little bit No offense to anyone living in the burbs, but just for me, it was slightly boring. Oh, that's funny. Oh, good on Yes. So you're an illustrator. And how did you first get into drawing? Have you always been a draw as you grew up? Yeah, it was one of those things where, you know, right from when I was super young, I was just constantly drawing drawing drawing, illustrating, my parents had to ban me from I used to draw on the walls. I remember drawing on all the photographs and being utterly dismayed when I got into trouble. I remember thinking I just made it all better. And yeah, and it was interesting though, and I often reflect upon this as though as I got older, I still did loads of art, but I kind of got a bit. And I think this happens with a lot of people, you get a bit shy about your work, I remember signing to hide my drawings and just being a bit self conscious about it. And I always knew I wanted to be creative and in the arts and my parents really let me do that. But I stepped away from illustration, because I thought, being a traditional artist or an illustrator wasn't a job. Yeah. Yeah. So I did, I went to university and I did graphic design, because, you know, I thought, well, that's a can pay the bills kind of things. And I loved University, I did a Bachelor of design, I absolutely loved it. And I went into graphic design, which is, you know, a lot of my work is quite graphic and has a typographic influence on it. So I went into that. And, but when I got into being an actual graphic designer, I found it. I mean, I was working at a great agency, you know, one of the top agencies, but I just found it a bit. Like, I liked it, but I knew it wasn't me. I was always very conceptual. So I actually stepped into and then I went into art direction and advertising for a long time. Yeah. You know, ads, and, and again, I loved it. And I love the creative side, but I just knew something was missing. So it was actually it took to having my first child. And going freelance, because advertising doesn't sometimes know where to put. This was, it was about 10 years ago, but it's so funny. It's come a long way since then, but I had no idea what to do with. And I think I was one of the only women in the creative department. I had a baby. And I kind of stopped being on the the top projects because I couldn't do the pictures overnight. Yeah. You know, all that kind of stuff. And so when I started freelancing, I just started thinking, There's got to be more to life. And I've always been illustrating, so it was kind of in the back of my mind. Yeah. So yeah. So was it like your needs weren't being met in terms of you expressing yourself? Is that sort of you were doing it for someone else in their ideas? Yeah, I started getting really disillusioned with advertising. I loved it at first, like I was, and then I suddenly it was like, I'd taken off the rose colored glasses, maybe childbirth does that to you? I don't know. And yeah, and I just, I started thinking I needed to work for myself, because I, when you have a kid, you almost like apologize for leaving to go to daycare to get them or them being sick. And I hated apologizing for that. And being almost embarrassed about having a kid and I was like, Why do I need to do that? And, and what happened was, I was actually teaching my son that the alphabet and I, this idea popped into my head. What a like, it was all such boring stuff. And I was like, I could make my own illustrative alphabet, you know, and why don't I merge? Legends of Australia, like, you know, all these incredible characters, diverse characters and put them on the heads of all these alphabets. And I opened an Instagram account that was actually I know, we all put people on social media, but it was actually the start of me kind of coming out as an illustrator. You know, like my, my little sneaky side that no one knew about. So I learned a launch this, this alphabet series. I did one a night, because it was you know, there's 26 letters in the alphabet. So I needed to give myself a goal, you know, with two by then I had another baby and I thought, I'm going to do one legend at night. So he was that a good day, it was for Bob Hawke, you know of morphing them, and I started releasing them on my Instagram account and getting this really amazing feed that. Yeah, that's awesome. Because we don't get a lot of like that Australian, sort of that route cloak you stuff. It's not Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. There's like the animals or the birds or I don't know, but that and that's something that I've really enjoyed looking on your account is the way that you do bring to the fore these these Australian icons, and you say diverse, which is awesome. Like, you've got, like, at the moment, I saw you had a post about Costa, the garden, Australia, man, and you've done the caffeine came in and dealing all caught like, yes, it's great. And I guess that's why it would have resonated with people because it was different and traditionally Australian, you know, I know and again, it was, I think about what happened. Okay, so it was about eight years ago when I released this poster series, and Australia has come and you know, I go to the bookstore now and I see so many multicultural books out there, especially for First Nation people, which it was so lacking before, it was only in the last. It's crazy to think that because now I think people are far more aware of it. But but even like 10 years ago, there wasn't a lot of stuff out there. So especially with Yeah, it was kind of when celebrating people's. It was just happening more for kids and that was my whole life. aim was to show kids that no matter where you come from your background, your ethnicity, religion, you know, abilities you can do, you can be anything you want to be. Yeah. And that kind of led to the book deal the publishing deal. So I made this poster. And that's kind of it was really funny I was. It all went a bit viral. And I remember kind of putting down my advertising pin. It's an advertising ban, but I just was like, I quit. And I didn't do any more freelance. I was like, I'm out. Yeah, yeah. And it's to and to have, like, your passion. And you're the thing you're excited about to be recognized and rewarded and saying, We, you know, someone else validating that. Yeah, be tremendous. You go right. This is it. This is what I've been sort of wanting, you know, that. express your creativity outlet. Yeah. And to all the parents out there, like, I thought that by the time I was quite when I got when I first got pregnant. And I was I mean, I was young, I was 30, which is young male by today's parenting. I just thought my life I hadn't reached my potential. And it was too late now that I was becoming a parent. I remember feeling like so sad about that. And I only really came into I found my purpose at about 35. And I think that's quite young doing now that I think of it. But at the time, I thought, if I didn't hit my stride when I was like, 25, then I hadn't made it successfully. And it was just such a nice feeling to know that you don't have to, like with maturity comes so many more insights into the world. They've allowed me to be to create this poster, my kids, you know, that was great. Yeah, no, that's good advice. I think, yeah, we can get a bit hung up when we're younger, looking at the future thinking, Oh, we've got to get this done. We've got to get this done. And I think that, that notion of when you have a child, then everything you've ever done, or everything you are just has to go out the window, because now you're a mother, it's like, oh, I can't do this anymore. And that's actual bullshit. I know you've actually it. I think the maternity leave actually gave me the time. And when with the first one, I was so exhausted, you know, first baby, but the second baby, I wasn't so over, whelmed by motherhood. And I did actually use that time to do my creative pursuits, which I know doesn't happen for lots of people. But for me, it was kind of what it allowed me to take some time off and figure out what I wanted to do. Now it's really important. I think that's yeah, it's really good to share that with others. That season, it's never too late. No, you can make it look like people. You know, you can see actors coming into the full bloom in their 60s and 70s. And it took me Yeah, I just feel like this whole pressure to achieve so young is total bullshit. Yeah. And unfortunately, it's not until you get older that you realize, yeah. I mean, it was hard. It has always been quite hard. I mean, I work for myself now. And I did that to allow myself to have that flexibility to not have to apologize for getting my kid early. From work, but I mean, I probably work a lot harder. And and there's a lot of juggling going on. So yeah, that's it isn't it? So tell me about your children. You have two children. Yeah. Is my labor i 10. And seven, and, and my third child, my sport is charged with it. loves getting a dog is probably harder than having a newborn as I worked out. Yeah. So they Yeah, they're in school. But you know, school finishes. It's a short period. It's a short day. They're great. They're really great. And they always inspire me to do you know, a lot of our kids books have come again, from our inspiration of from our kids, which has been great work and my husband and I co create a lot of the content out there. So we come up with book ideas together. And then I illustrate and he writes it, so it's quite a good team. Oh, that's pretty cool. Do you? Is it a bit if I was doing with husband or wife is it like me? I always say to everyone, you know, you've got to maintain a very healthy relationship. So we work together collaborate on the ideas for the ball, and then we go out several ways. You can't be on top of each other too much. Yeah, yeah. And I guess that's thing you need. You've got your own, you know, creative and aspects that you're capable of doing. You don't need someone looking over your shoulder Oh, no that that differently or yeah, whatever. Well, we do critique each other's work at times, but like, it's in a very kind of small window. And then we have space. Yeah. If you're working, and he also works in, you know, he's in an out, he's doing other stuff too. So I just, I always tell people, it's really wonderful because you have, you can relate to each other. And you have these common projects that you're building together, which is amazing, but it's always good to also have your own space. I think that's very important. Oh, my God, don't get me started about that. How many books have you done together? Um, we've done. So I did all the legends myself. And then and then we've done about seven mod six, six, we've done together yet. So the next one we did off. So as the legend alphabet, which was my post that got turned into a book, which was amazing. And then we got an app. So we got a bit of a publishing deal, which was, you know, a lifelong dream of mine. And the second book we actually came up with, was called if I was Prime Minister. And it was all about what kids would do if they were Prime Minister of the country. They lead the country, sorry. And it was amazing. Because, yeah, my son, we were on a trip to Canberra and he started coming up with all the things he would do if he was Prime Minister. And we were like, Oh, we're going to unique that idea of you. So we've added support to loads of kids and their ideas were incredible. And it just kind of took shape. And it's, it's, it's I think it's my favorite book, it's, it just shows that the world is going to be okay. Because kids have the most incredible, thoughtful, caring ideas that unfortunately, get a bit watered down as they get older. But it's, it's really inspirational. And I think people and we wanted to encourage kids to become more involved with politics and leadership at a young age. I don't know about you, but I didn't really understand what was going on when I was young. Oh, no, it took me a while because my parents were very, and my, my Nana, who was very close to us in the family. They were very secretive about like, who they'd vote for, like, Oh, yeah. Never tell anyone who you voted for. And it wasn't till I got older. And I realized, you know, they were working class, you know, blue collar workers that they will ever voted. And luckily, I sort of, I resonated with that. But yeah, but now like, I talk to my kids about all about politics, like they know who everyone is, and I tell them about, like, I want to understand stuff. So they don't just all of a sudden get thrust into the world of voting and have to go, oh, my gosh, what is this? Who do I vote? Yes, you know, I know, I think they need to be more educated. But But and again, they are planning to teach it more at school, which I think is fantastic. I don't think we ever got taught it at school. We got taught about the history of other countries and French Revolution. We don't learn Australian history. Yeah, so that thing, goodness, that's all changing. But yeah, I'm really hot on that. And actually, I had a guest on last week's episode that, well, this, I was talking the wrong tense because your episode will come out at one point, and the other person's. So a few weeks ago, I had Elise Adlam on the podcast, and she's an Australian philosopher, and feminist. And she was talking about how you can include your children in these big ideas in a childlike way. But right from the start, you know, including them in discussions about social justice, and, you know, this sort of stuff, which I thought was amazing. I think a lot of us do it in some way anyway. But it's really nice to know that it's actually a thing and you feel like you're validated a little bit to go, oh, yeah, we're actually doing the right thing, which is a bad thing to say because, you know, that whole sort of, you know, not mum guilt, but the sort of doubting yourself. But yeah, politics love politics. And I don't know, I think that's really important because I think I mean, I've been involved in this project that's not come out yet. So I'm not going to say what it is, but it is about breaking down stereotypes. And I think that that on a really basic level, you can start with kids I've been just exploring what a child looks like. Like on a very basic level like not what does it look like like a girl that a boy that likes to dress up as a girl, you know, like a nun address of his girl but you know, put on girls clothes and all those things. I've just breaking down what we're just taught and you can teach kids at such a young age, you know, Oh, yeah. And like he was saying before about the the ideas that these kids have Like, unfortunately, us as adults put so much of our own beliefs and mis judgments and all this sort of stuff on the kids, and if they just had the chance to just keep believing what they believe, Yeah, amazing to see, I know, someone actually put when we, these books, we talked to a lot of kids, and we and there was some hilarious ideas about what they would do if they were Prime Minister, like, come up with an extra day of the week called yum day, you know, like, so it wasn't all like, Oh, we're gonna, you know, change the world it was. But there was amazing stuff about, you know, giving to the homeless and all those kinds of things. And, um, and so that's it to us. It's a very lifting book, isn't it? I said, most kids aren't quite that way until? I think so too, because they do have that natural sort of here for others, you know? Yeah, I don't I think all of us are that way to start with. And then for some reason, capitalism, and yes, the world gets involved. And people start to pick whatever they want, if they want to go down, I think my son's a bit of a capitalist doesn't naturally some kids gravitate towards something one way or the other, and just, you know, teaching them to have all these these ideas. You know, look at the kids protesting about climate change. These are getting involved. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, that's the thing that their parents aren't telling him to do this. That's, that's something that they've, I mean, the parents have done an amazing job to allow them to keep thinking that way, yeah. I think um, yeah, and all I want my work to do, and I think I just naturally gravitate towards, you know, trying to shine a spotlight on these messages. I do it on my Instagram and my illustrations in my book, and I just want to look at those, you know, I like to keep current, what's going on? I'm always illustrating kind of as things happen around me, because it just interests me. And hopefully, you know, and people are hopefully able to relate to it, which is, is great. Yeah. political cartoonists. Yeah, it's common, the commentary on on, you know, relevant issues. I was actually, I was gonna ask you, what, what is your sort of inspiration? Yeah, I just get so inspired by what's going on in the news in the world? How are people reacting to things, and it's always excites me to draw something really quickly about it. You know, I just kind of, and I guess, you know, again, I don't regret any of my advertising background, because it actually teaches me to conceptually come up with something interesting on the spot quite quickly, you know, we're used to having to write down these ideas or get these ads out there. So none of the stuff that I've done before it's been a waste it all. So I always Yeah, and I kind of use all those skills. And when I see something come up, I go, Oh, I'd love to do an illustration about this, about that. You know, something that's just happened on the news. So I kind of jump on that. Yeah, no, that's, that's really cool. And you said, like your children, obviously influenced your books. Do you look at things differently now that you have children in terms of what is happening in the world? Yes. Yeah. I think just just constantly Oh, can you just hold on one second? The dog walkers? Yeah, no worries. One second. I'll be one word. Let's hear me. Oh, my God is so funny. They're like, they're going in the round. They all love each other. They just had a bit of a fight. Is that uh, is that like, they pick up lots of dogs and take them all at once? Oh, favorite thing like, I can't he can't even he gets so excited when he hears like a voice isn't the dog or the dog Olga says that I know and Clyde actually, you know, speak. We were talking about my children and firing our book and then our latest book. It's about a rescue Greyhound and my dog inspired me for that book. We always think he's got a bit of Greyhound in him and yeah, and it's it we just launched it. It's called got Clyde the greyhound. Clyde doesn't realize I've named the book after him. But um, yeah. Really beautiful story about a risky gram that doesn't know how to fit into inner city lifestyle. It's so funny. I had so much fun I mean, if you want to think about my day, it was really funny. I spoke to my sister in law who's a doctor, you know? And she was talking about these life saving operations. And she said, What did you do today? And I said, I drew a dog party. It took me that whole day. It's just so much joy to meet kids. You know, this whole world? Oh, yes. Yes, I work in, in early childhood education. So I'm, I love going into work and just immersing myself in a different world of fun and just Yeah. And you can truly be yourself like you can't, you know, there's no hiding yourself straight through you like, it's wonderful to be able to just truly be yourself. And yeah, yeah, a lot of my illustrations too. I actually also add lazing because I want when the parent reads the book, or you have the childcare to also get, you know, like, I like kind of feeding in different messages, some to the kid some to the adult for the adults will have a laugh about it, too. So I think that's really important. Yeah, I love books like that. It's like it goes straight over the kid's head for the parents to say. I'm in the Prime Minister. But we've got this, we talk about what a prime minister does. So we show a picture of the PMs office. And then so on all the spines. I've just written really funny names of books that adults would laugh at. But there's one that's called that's not my PM. And there's another one. There's another book called How to be a pm for dummies. Being just like, really funny. All the all the leaders of the world in one phone book, like a little phone book section, and he had so much fun, right? Yeah, but I've got to say, too, with the book, that's the my favorite teacher. I I like the neutral nod to the, to the Beatles in the music teacher. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Because one of my favorite pages. Thank you so much. Yeah, it was. And, um, and the line was, you know, my favorite teacher is I can't remember the teacher's name, but it's we love seeing getting better all the time, because he thinks we're getting better. You know, parent would like that. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I definitely appreciate the effort that you put into that. Oh, my God, I think I put in too much effort. Sometimes I just sweat over these little these pages on thing. Does anyone notice but I love hearing that type. Yeah. And that's really cool. Like to ask all my mums about this concept of mum guilt, and it's something that you've touched on a little bit when you were talking about having to feel sorry, like saying, Sorry, you'll feel bad because you had to leave when you're working in advertising, you know, for pickups, or whatever. Have you found that that's changed the way you think about that sort of stuff? Since you're, you're doing what you love? And you know what I mean? Yeah, that's a great question. I think that might now my mum guilt comes to you know, I do have that mum guilt towards my kids because I don't have that straightforward job. So I am often working in the evening. And I find that I have to be a bit more put my tools down when they're home because I could just work work quite a lot. Even what you know, when they're at home, which is not you know, sometimes, you know, you're gonna have to work it at nighttime or around but I do think they're aware of me constantly not being focused on them because my job doesn't have a nine to five. Always, uh, you know, get random emails and all that so I'm getting better at it. I think I was shocking at the beginning. And it depends, like if I hadn't been a really intense period where actually during COVID It was actually quite busy for me because a lot of people couldn't do photo shoots. So they would need illustrators and then you had kids homeschool. Are we saying to someone, what did you call the people that had to go to work? They were called essential work. Essential illustrator, I said to a friend. So that was really hard. Because yeah, I and I also saw I had that mum guilt, but I also know that I'm a happier person when I'm enjoying my work. So with that, you know, being balanced. We're never gonna get it right. Are we? Ah, I don't know if there is a right you know what I mean? Like, you feel bad no matter what you do too much time with the kids, and then you go on, I've been neglecting a lot of things. And then I think that I'm a good role model in terms of doing something that I think they can look at and go okay, so she's really loves what she does. So that's a really great thing. And, you know, I have toned back, you know, mealtimes and everything answering my phones and stuff, but I don't think I'm ever gonna get that perfect to be fair. So I yeah, I know. It's different that guilt because yeah, I think I do work harder now than I don't. I run it, you know, work in advertising. Because it for my business, and I want to be really successful. I think it's funny, when you go out and work for yourself, you kind of need to prove it so much that you are doing the right thing that I think sometimes you tend to actually go a bit too far. Like you're actually too, you know, you have to tick so many things off the list, yet. You feel accomplished. So I struggle with that a bit. Yeah, yeah, I can understand that. When you said before about doing something that you love, I think that is so important. And I feel like, because this society we're in is so driven by making money. It's like, a lot of people have lost that sort of, you know, in I don't know who said this quote, but you know, if you do, do something, if you work in something you love, you'll never work a day in your life. Like, I don't know that there'd be, you know, so many people out of 10 that could truly say, I know, and I can't be grateful that I you know, there's lots of people all around the world that have to go work in terrible work conditions. And how lucky am I that I get to? Yeah, I try and be grateful about that. It's funny being it's actually funny working from home, because I have this beautiful studio that I've kind of set up for myself, but then at the same time, I think I kind of do myself, I'm constantly putting the washing on or, yeah, you know, my day, sometimes I have really productive moments, and then I'm just around the house kind of trying to do both. It's we're in such a funny time period, as a woman, as women, you know, we are expected that whole, you can do it all. By us in the face a lot of the time, I think, yeah, because I am picking the kids up from school and not putting them in after school care, or anything like that. So I haven't really quite crazy a lot of the time. Both be there for them and also work and run a household. Yeah, and let alone you know, that's the physical stuff, but the mental, like, as an artist, like your brain doesn't stop in no creative mode, too. So you know, if you see something like especially you say you're inspired by current events, and what's happening, you know, you're taking that in, and then you might go, Oh, I've got this idea. It's like that little what's name needs something and you're like, oh, you know, it's this constant pool, constant push and pull from all sides. That's what I struggle with. Like, if I've got an idea, I need to write something down. But I'm in the middle of, I don't know, making lunches or something, you know, it's just like, how do you physically and mentally can do all this stuff. So true. And I also think that I've had a few when things are really truly gone a little sour is when I've, it's wet when everything is running perfectly, and there's no kids sick, there's nothing goes wrong with work, but if something say something happens during my work, we had something go wrong with one of our books. And so all those all those plates and I'm speeding, if one light, then everything can actually fall down. And so it's you have to be easier on yourself. And I think yeah, and be prepared for those moments. And I've had to learn how to rebound and not take all those moments to personally you know, my ego takes a bashing or any of those things and it sounds and I was yay if it's nice and calm, everything is fine but if things get hectic like a job I have to get out instantly things I mean it can go quite chaotic and I'm trying to learn you know through meditation a few other things I actually yeah, I've I've stopped drinking alcohol I was finding that too hard to balance with kids and locked down and all those kinds of things and it just I wasn't creatively feeling as well. You know, agile. So I've done a couple of things to actually be more present. And because it's you that was, yes, something I think was pulling me back a little bit and not and yeah, keeping all those plates spinning was hard work do you have like external support? And you have family around or Yeah, I can help. Yeah, yeah, I've got parents and I've got beautiful community around me and everything like that. So yeah, I do. And I'm learning to lean on everyone a bit more. Yeah. See, that's what I find that hard. Like, I've got people, but sometimes you feel bad for asking, because you think I should be able to do this myself. And, you know, and my ego, like, I can do this, I don't need to ask for help. But then it's like, Oh, my God, if I don't ask for help, like you said, the plates are gonna fall off, and then all the plates fall off and crash on the floor. And yeah, I know. And I also feel like having that time to myself to like, you know, I'll do exercise or something like I try and be quite rigid with when you work from home, you have to be quite rigid with your day, will fit in that exercise I have to in the morning or do meditate, because otherwise, I know, I've got to put the work in to kind of, you know, feel productive on those other sides of the equation here. Yeah, it's a common thing. A lot of moms I've spoken to that work from home, it's just there'll be, you know, doing something in their studio, and then they'll hear the, the, the dishwasher before the washing machine beeps or like, oh, just go do that, you know, and then you just, I don't know, if you think of, and I don't need to make the place perfect during the morning. Like, I can leave it a bit chaotic. And that's okay. Like, I don't have to clean up, you know, everything. So I'm trying to get better at doing things like that, I guess. Yeah. And just, and also leaving when you're in the creative world, it's, there's this time also, I just want to create for not for any commercial purposes, and just for myself, so I try and those times and then I try and be quite rigid with that other type of, you know, in the one that I still need to make money. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because it's almost like going back to the advertising days where you had that conflict between, you know, creating for someone else. And then your own, your own needs to come out. Sort of wasn't getting met. Yeah. I don't mind creating, I do a lot of freelance projects and actually, like, doing things with a purpose that are not just art for for, so I don't I don't mind working on briefs. And I love that side. I just need to know that I can balance that out with some other stuff for that. But you know, what? When do you ever get it perfectly? I think that weight exists. overthinking everything too much. Like just going just going with the flow of it like a kid is gonna get sick and lie next to you while you work is not the end of the world. That's That's it? Isn't it, like these expectations, letting go of what you think it's supposed to be like, or what society is supposed to be and looking on Instagram? Well, I mean, as I said, like when I started social media, for me has been such an amazing outlet, but it also makes me think everyone's doing a lot better than I am. Yes, yeah. And that's something we talk about a lot on this podcast, actually. And the best advice someone gave me was, if someone if someone's feed makes you feel triggered or uncomfortable, just just unfollow them, like, yeah. Oh, it's so amazing doing that, isn't it? It is a great feeling. But that's the thing like most people will only show the best bits, right? You only seeing the best bits and you can't compare your entire life to their best bit. It's like it's just not I think it's not healthy hunterson And you know, what's actually really good is that instead of being like, so we're stuck in these little was we're often quite isolated, especially as moms if you're working from home, you're quite isolated. If you're working in the studio, but actually to get and talk to other people in your creative industry, and talk and not be scared or jealous about them and actually try to learn from each other, and you'll see also that they're also going through their own struggles. I mean, not that you want to or complain, but it's nice to talk to people, rather than just seeing them as a competition. Yeah. And I think that comes from from age as well. Like, I feel like myself as a younger singer, was very competitive and would get jealous of people. And now, I just think, oh, good on. Yeah. Like, everyone, you for doing that. Yeah, I might think, oh, jeez, I wish I could do that. But then I think, well, I'm doing this. So that's like, you know what I mean, like, you don't lose sight of what journey you're on? Yes, you're able to have that maturity to celebrate someone else's success. And that's actually brought me a lot of joy. I know. And people are so generous when it comes to like giving me beautiful feedback. I was like, just kind of work myself to give other people like not think about yourself so much like get out of your own. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, what's interesting, too, is like you constantly creating for that kind of to get that positive feedback. And if you get too addicted to that it's actually really negative. And it's something I have to fight all the time. Yeah, I don't need everyone giving me compliments to feel better as a person. Yeah, see, I'm the same. I'm the same, this is going off on a tangent now. But when I was younger, in my relationship, like my husband, I'm married. Now before we were married, my husband doesn't do public displays of affection. He's not big on the art, you look beautiful sort of thing. And he's really good in a crisis, like he's, you know, really steady level raising. And so when I was younger, and all my girlfriends were with these blokes that had always have their arm around them when they're fatigued, telling them how beautiful they are, think we should do that. I wish she did. And then at some point in my life, I realized that I could actually say that to myself, I could actually say, Allison, you're amazing, you look really great, or you've done a really good job. I didn't have to wait for someone else to give me that validation. And that was tremendously, like freeing, because now I don't give a shit. You know, me, like, I don't need someone else to make me feel good about myself. And that felt really nice, because I think my dad was the same. He'd never give you like, I worked with my dad for a long time. You'd never get any sort of real positive feedback. You'd never get those comments. And my mum used to say, Oh, he never tells you done a good job. And it's like, I just have to tell myself, I've done a good job. Yeah. Because the same comes from their upbringing about what their parents are actually said it to me. And I know. And it's really funny though. Now my dad if he ever does say like, Wow, he's really proud. Both moments means so much. Yes, absolutely. Because they say no. Yes. But then at the same time, though, I've got to say, my mom was so positive, this is actually goes back to my creativity. And I have to she was so encouraging about it. And it was really important. Yeah, I needed that. Like, I always used to laugh before I even showed my mom and our network. She would gasp being like, oh my god, it's amazing. I was like, I haven't even showed it to you. I need someone in your life though. As long as you've got some sort of that kind of person just in those early stages to give you that confidence in Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's it because he's like, you might not have ever gone down that path if he didn't have that. That encouragement, ality and now I'm with my kids, although I always laugh that I don't want them to go into the creative world. I was like, I just wanted to be a chartered accountant. Something really boring and regular. But I know it's so funny. But i my i was always allowed to kind of do my thing and go into my creative choices. I was never stopped. Yeah, and art classes in the afternoon, all those things that are really important to work to making sure that your kid is well rounded in life. And it really gave me the tools to I think just be able to kind of go for it. Even though it took me a few years to get back to like my initial that kid drawing on the walls and she had to go, she had to go a few years, making $1 or two out and actually not just being a pure artist. I think it was important. I kind of know how the world works a little bit more now. Yeah, yeah. And like you said, you picked up those skills of being able to like get an idea and really quickly and you know, turn things around like from the advertising. Gonna Yeah, I think that that it all it Yeah, it all helped Are you kids creative as well they drawing and it's so funny. I didn't see early on the same obsession as I did, but now it's kind of coming a bit later. I don't know. And it's funny. I don't know if I I push it as much as I should or, but this just naturally coming out in in interesting ways like drama and and all those things it's so funny you see them, um constantly growing. You just you can't ever peek what they're gonna become. And for my son is 10 now it's really exciting thing I'm kind of on the verge of going into teenagehood and who is going to be? Yeah. Oh no. Yeah, I feel like it's I'm on the cusp before they go into like really negative space. How old are you? Well, I've got a seven year old and a 14 year old. Oh, so you're a bit older. So I've got a seven or 10 year old. Yeah, well over the shop. But yeah, gosh, it's just odd. And I that before Alex, like Alex is my eldest before he became a teenager, I just didn't know what to expect. I thought because I hadn't I've had no brothers with a sister. So I didn't know what the boys were going to be like. But he's just, I don't know, just the most straightforward, logical, well adjusted, settled child. It's just a miracle. It's just lovely. And I like you talking about like pushing the drawing or the creativity. I both my husband and I play instruments in a musical. But Alex, I always said to him, do you wanna? You want me to teach you something? Do you want to know I don't wanna do not he's not a really sporty kid. But all of a sudden, about 12 months ago, he decided he wanted to play the recorder. Just out of nowhere. I'm like, great. The recorder I had to pick something out. And then it was a bit much for me. So I bought him a tin whistle and Irish tin whistle because I had a nicer sound. And then he decides he wants to play the bagpipes. Oh, my now but he's so he's actually he's picked it up so quickly. Like for kid that's done nothing musical. I think it was just any, you know, they just get get it through. The Jains picked it up so quick. And he's he's actually good at it. So it actually sounds nice. Coming through the house with four doors shut between him and us. It sounds lovely. I love that you didn't push anything on him too much. Like I think we pushed the piano on my oldest to he hated it in the classic thing of pushing it and then being able to step back and just letting him naturally. It scared me though, because people around me like I was singing in a vocal group when he was born and other mums were getting their kids to join this junior group that we had. And I was like, Oh, maybe I should be doing this. And I actually got him to come to a Christmas carol gig, just real casual just to sing Christmas carols with us. And he just said, I didn't really I don't want to do that again. I'll say okay, that's fine. Like you've had a go, you know, and I just I've just really had to step back, which was hard for me. Because I'm, you know, do you want to do this? Do you want to do that? Yeah, that can. It's also like you, you want to make sure. Just because, you know, you've got all that experience in the music world, but and you don't and then you're like, Oh, have I deprived them? Should I have pushed harder? Yeah, yeah. And all these mums are doing it. Should I be on that? Was that felt like I was? Yeah. Am I doing the right thing. And in the end, it's just happened the way it's happened. So it's lovely. But my other ones completely different. He just wants to do everything he wants to. Like he's really sporty. He's trying out all different things. So they're very different children. And I don't think we'll ever play a musical instrument. He's just too sporty. But that's fine. I've got my bag. Oh my god, amazing. I'll talk to you and like, you know, 10 years from now and you'll be like he's a professional bagpipe. I've always had one of my good friend of mine from down here. She's Scottish and she wants him to play at a wedding. Oh, there you go, mate. That'd be your first professional gig. Oh my god. You gotta get into the wedding circuit. Wedding weddings and funerals Oh my god. I JC a poor boy that I think has been exiled to the park up the road from us playing the bag Oh God I had just so loud and he hasn't even got all the stops out of all of these things yet like they can get louder sunlight. Oh god help is when he loves that he really loves it. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison. Wanted to ask to your children obviously must be aware that mom and dad are creators and make does that make you like excited and play? They know that you do stuff apart from being their parents. Yeah, it's so funny though I talk about this quite a bit. So I, you know, at their local school, we just got to a really lovely public school, I do a lot of reading and, you know, kids are aware, and it's just so I think they before they discover influences, they're really love our books, and they're always coming up to us to the playground and talking to us and just being amazing. And my kids are really proud of that. Like, it's almost like this. They get a bit of fame out of us, but they're like, I mean, yeah, as I said, you know, like a five year old then, before they've discovered YouTube. But they, ah, I laugh. If I go, I've done a new book, you know, it's pretty amazing to get a book published, and they don't even my kid. My son's read a latest book. And I go to a, I'm going to stop did I dedicate the books to them? I go, I'm gonna stop dedicating these books to you. This is the last one. I don't know. Look. He's, he kind of get some bit embarrassed now and all that kind of stuff. But I know he loves it. But then they're really not that excited whenever we got a new board is that she's done another one. Oh, I know. I know. And it's so funny. Because when sometimes when their friends come over, they want to watch me draw thing and they don't really know underneath. Yeah. Would you like me to come in and do a reading of my new book? No, no. Okay. That's fine. I'm not coming in. But yeah, it's funny. But yeah, as I said, and then then they'll do beautiful things like make their own books. Both things. It's just not a constant, because I think it's it's everywhere around them. I think that must be that must happen for a lot of parents who are doing these interesting vacations, like kids just kind of it kind of becomes quite normal, doesn't it? Hmm, yeah. And the excitement of it, like has gone out? Because I see it every day. And I see it. I know. I know. So but yeah, I'm sure later in life, they'll be really proud. Hopefully. I tell you funny. And then I dedicated another book, I think to my siblings. I don't think they got that excited. Maybe that's my big hint that I think it's so wonderful to dedicate a wall. But it's not actually to animate. Oh, yeah, that's quite funny. I when I did my first album, I did it. I have so many dedications on it. And I think the most excited with the ladies because I have the I used to teach Aqua classes at my local church. And it was beautiful bunch of of elderly ladies. And they were just like, like I had 20 Nana's like they were just beautiful. And so and they'd always be like, Oh, when's your next gig because none of them were online. So they had to work out how they were going to get their tickets and all this sort of stuff. But they'd come I had, you know, a table of them come to I put them in my dedications. And they were, I think, the most excited. None amazing partners, the charity sort of thing. Yeah. And that support and you know, what's amazing? Is those those type of people, you know, when I've had book launches, and the most interesting people that I never would have thought come more than your close friends come to these things. And it's just good to have those type of people in your life. Oh, yeah. It's very, it's very, I don't know what the word is. It's validating but it's lovely as well, like going past the ego. It's yeah. It's just to see you meet in your journey. You know, in the creative world, you meet so many interesting characters. And some people are just more attracted to what you do than others. I think that's just, yeah, I'm sure one of my kids is going to follow me more than my other kid. And then I might get an accountant if dreams do come true. Just a regular paycheck. attracted to that stability, because there's no stability in the work we do. At the same time, I'm so addicted to like, you know, the highs and the, you know, that an email can avail like, you know, the other day we were on the news, and Anthony Albanese was reading our prime minister, but yeah, I mean, that just does not happen. That's on the news. And you're like, Wow, this is just so crazy. So the other day we had on and someone read our book on Play Store, which was just, yeah, that's almost like the peak, isn't it? That's like the summer. Right. You know, what's interesting, though, is sorry, I always go you know, what's interesting to me, um, you have these new summers and you think, Well, that's it. I'm retiring that I mean, how can you get better and then this little thing called ambition? Get in or are you going comes in your head and guess what are you going to do next? It was like when I got my first book published, I was like, Oh, well, I've done it. I've achieved what I wanted to because that was always my greatest ambition was to do that. And then like, what about that next book, Becky? Oh, that's funny. I love that now. Good idea. But thank you so much for chatting with me today. It's so lovely. I've just enjoyed meeting you know me too and it's so nice talking to someone in the creative field but on a different spin on you know, I love talking to people like that I've got to I yeah reminds me not just talking to people in the book world or the the art world music or anything. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Sarah Hens Australian blogger S3 Ep93 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Sarah Hens, Sarah is a blogger from the Blue Mountains in NSW Australia, and a mum of 1. Following a pregnancy that almost claimed her life, Sarah was compelled to record her own experience with preeclampsia , eclampsia and birth trauma . She used wriiting as a way to not only record what happened so she wouldn't forget (at times being in the ICU and coming in and out of consciousness), but to work through her experience and to make sense of it. Initially Sarah's words were only for herself, and she didn't expect to share it, however as time went on, she found that through sharing her own experience she could help others, and particularly share a voice in Australia. She also shares other's through her blog The Pesky Placenta Society. ***Please be aware this episode conains a lot of discussion around pregnancy and birth trauma, perinatal trauma, PND, PTSD and a near death medical episode*** Sarah - Website / Instagram / Sarah's pre ecampsia story Podcast - instagram / website Downtown Abbey episode If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online, I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. And welcome to the podcast. It's so lovely to have you here for wherever you are around the world. Want to take this opportunity to remind you to subscribe to my weekly email. You'll be the first to hear about the upcoming episodes, who's on next week, and some other little gifts and discounts and other things that I'd like to share. Just head to the webpage Alison newman.net/podcast and you'll scroll down and see the signup sheet. This week. My guest is Sarah hens. Sarah is a blogger from the Blue Mountains in Sydney, New South Wales, and she's a mom of one. Sarah has a background as a social worker and has spent many years working in the department for Child Protection. Following a pregnancy that almost claimed her life Sara was compelled to record her own experiences with preeclampsia, preeclampsia and a tremendous birth trauma. She used her writing as a way to not only record what happened so she wouldn't forget at times being in the ICU and coming in and out of consciousness, but to work through her experience and to make sense of it. Initially, Sarah's words were only meant for herself. She didn't expect to share it. However, as time went on, she found that through sharing her own experience, she could help others and particularly share a voice from Australia. She also now shares other's stories through her blog that pesky placenta society. Please be aware this episode is quite full on. It does contain a lot of discussion around pregnancy and birth trauma, perinatal trauma, postnatal depression, PTSD, and a near death medical experience. I really appreciate Sara's openness and honesty in sharing in today's episode. Thanks so much for coming on. Sarah. It's lovely to meet you today. Thanks for having me. That's absolute pleasure. And I I have heard that this is your first podcast so it's exciting to have you all. Oh, don't be nervous. We just pretend it's you and me. We're just having a fun chat. With like literally 1000s of people listening. Not that many maybe. So good. So good fun. So we're about to finish Australia. I am on Derek country in the Blue Mountains in South Wales beautiful Yeah, yes. It's very lovely. I've been from Derek country my whole life so I was on a different different part in the Hawkesbury in the mountains gal. Beautiful I've never been a bit I've seen plenty of photos and yeah you neither is it the three sisters and we've got 45 minutes from there so I'm not going to lower like pretty much the first bit of the ego call Mountain is where it is and then there's lots more mountain often Yeah, right i Oh awesome. Oh lovely. That sounds like a nice place to live. So are you a fairway from Sydney? Where you are then? All the closer Yeah. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Do you go into Sydney much you have to go in? Often I was it was weird. So obviously with COVID we're all stuck you know for ages but I went to the opera house for two different shows like three weeks taught and I haven't been there for so long. I went there twice in one month so that was pretty good. I do love a city day because I don't really there I find the city very interesting and like you Yeah, I couldn't imagine living in a city. I mean, I've I mean Adelaide and and if you've ever been to Adelaide, but that's not exactly a proper city. It's like a bit country town. Basically, everyone chases Adelaide because it's yeah, it's easy to drive in. So it's not really a city. Fucking like a map of Sydney. No one knew literally, was the first place that any one job like anything. Yeah, yeah, they weren't, weren't considering the future when they made Sydney. Really were they, too but yeah, that's nice for a visit. I haven't been there for a long time. But yeah, nice for trip. But I would hate to live in a place like that. I just, it's not my thing. I like a bit of space around me. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, so you by trade, a social worker? When did you first get into that sort of thing? Was it something you're always interested in? Being when you're growing up? Not professionally, I think I have been like a little social worker from the beginning. My mom actually said years like after I decided to actually study it. She was like, I knew you were going to be that because I was just always that person that like the kids at school that are having my mom and dad were having issues or, you know, they'd always come and find me and like be crying in the bathroom. So via without me for a long time, but actually going into it because I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was never one of those people that was like, Yes, I'm going to be a doctor or a teacher. And then I remember when I was looking at different degrees, I thought, Okay, this sounds pretty broad. Like, I feel like I could make this work in lots of different areas. And then as I did my best placement was with in child protection. And I love that, which sounds weird, because it doesn't sound like a sort of job you should love. You know, actually, I can relate to that, because I work on the other side of it in early childhood education. Yeah, I have actually great admiration for what you guys do on the other side, I could definitely not do it myself. So yeah. It's definitely a job that makes or breaks you for sure. Sometimes you're not really sure where it's going. But I did my placement there. Did another placement overseas. And I thought, yeah, this is a job that I want to do. So I was there for nearly six years before I went on that week. Actually resigned my position a couple of months ago, because the circumstances surrounding my birth left me with some more pressure issues that it's no surprise child protection does not help your blood pressure. Stay down. Yes, sort of gave that out recently, which feels still, it doesn't feel real. Like I still can't believe I'm not going back. But yeah, social work can take me anywhere. So I know that I have heaps of options and lots of experience now. So I'm excited to see where I am. Yeah, not good on yeah, like I said, I think what you guys do on that other side, oh, my god, like I, I quit, I was working in a law firm, just before I decided to completely change and go into child childcare and early childhood education because I was finding out things about things happening in my town that I didn't want to know about. Like, I'm, I'm a very sensitive person, and I find it hard not to take on other people's emotions and situations and experiences. So you know, I'd be sitting there typing, affidavits of people who are coming through the court system for, for doing horrible things to children and young people. And I thought I can't I can't keep doing this. And I said to my husband, I need to I need to help the children. Like in my mind, it was like help the children he's like, but you are helping the children and you're putting their perpetrators to court, you're contributing to that process. Like no, but I need to have my hands on the children like I just had this feeling I needed to be able to hold the children and you know, pick up stuff and reports and do that sort of stuff rather than, you know, the real hardcore stuff, which I'm just not cut out for at all. Because I mean, I honestly like I look at people that are in education, and I just think you have the patience of a saint. I'll protect the kids but after them skills, I think knowing where you fit is so important because you know, otherwise you're just forcing a job you hate and then if you think it's really cool perspective to early childhood, like most people just kind of love little kids and love working with them but I think bring a bit of an extra skill to it. Kind of having seen We're helping kids don't? Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, it really, it really makes your days so much more focused and more productive. Because a lot of people have an idea that childcare and I mean, it kindy at the moment is literally sitting on the floor playing with kids all day. Like, they think it's just some, like fancy way out of doing nothing. And so oh my gosh, like, no, like, people come in and do work experience or the they do their placement and they just go oh, it's not what I thought it was gonna be like, it is really demanding work and physically but also emotionally and mentally. You know, you're focusing on these little people and it's not just, I don't know, it's, it's such a broad scope of what you're looking at, for this child. Like this do the same job as you I'm just hearing the amount of just the admin side of it. Yeah, that's writing individualized notes for each child. And every day I'm gonna be like, favorite anything otherwise apathetic parent ever. Did you have lunch? Great, great. Good. Like I'm, I'm in awe of people that can keep up with that. Like, it's just not what I'm seeing, you know, she makes all her little activities and stuff you're taking and there's so much passion that goes into teaching kids question that I do not have. Very impressed. It's interesting how it all fits together, isn't it? How we will play a little cards and yeah, now good Anya, I really have a lot of admiration for you guys story. I first discovered you on Instagram, with your very awesome named account the pesky placenta society, which is brilliant. Can you tell me how you came up with that day? So it was it was not my first one. I was actually thinking today. I will come with the page like and I looked at some of the graphics I did in the beginning. Ugly. I had. Yeah, I had another name initially. And that was like part of one of my favorite quotes, which I still love. But you know, it wasn't mine. And I think as the space started to grow, and you know, people actually seem to care about what I was. I thought, No, I want to I want to move forward as something that's just me. And from the beginning of my pregnancy, I had the anterior placenta, which is at the front, so I would always call it pecky. Because it meant that I couldn't feel as much movement. I had so many trips to the hospital being like, oh, my gosh, and then the second thing had gone who'd be like, Connie told my Microcenter pesky from from day one. But then I ended up diagnosed with preeclampsia. So it became like, super speed as pesky as it can be. And I think that having a I was worrying people would think I was making light of it, that sometimes I do, like, that's just how I am. And I think it's quite the and it's weird. And that's, that's me. Yeah, absolutely. You know, there are so many people out there that not just for vanity reasons, there's so many issues you can have with your placenta. It's just a fun little way of honoring the journey. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love it. I think it's really cool. Because I think, I mean, there's so many people out there, everyone's got a different way of dealing with or processing issues and an account that might be really clinical and crisp and coming at it from a, you know, medical area, whatever, that might not see everybody, you know, like I I sort of have a joke when I talk about my placenta, that it's been pesky as well. It's sort of had a I don't know what the official name is. I've been trying to find it but it basically the blood flow was compromised from about 28 weeks. So then that meant that the baby didn't develop. And basically he stopped growing was dental insufficiency. Placental insufficiency. Yeah. So I sort of make a joke about that myself because my son when he was born, he was four pound 14. But he was completely formed, you know, he had his lungs were formed, everything was developed. He was all there. But he was just really tiny. He had no fat on him. He come out like looking like a skeleton rabbit. Like these tiny things, and you could see his diaphragm like when he was breathing like you could see every little muscle and everything inside him. So when people were still here quite little now. And they'll say, oh, yeah, he's a little little tack here. And I'll just say, oh, yeah, my plus Cena kind of stuff working. You know, I say it is a bit of a joke like. So yeah, I can appreciate where you're coming from. I mean, it's good. I think it's good to share in that way do you want to share a little bit more about that experience for you finding out you had that anterior placenta and sort of how things progressed from that point? Yeah, so um, well, I looking back now I had high blood pressure from like the beginning of my pregnancy, because life was quite stressful, and I got pregnant and stayed. So for probably about half the pregnancy to similar things happening in life. So I was pretty frequently stuck in hospital for the blood pressure profiles, or they can be there for like three or four hours and check it. So I was used to that. And preeclampsia is something that like, it was mentioned when I booked in, because they run through the symptoms, just keep an eye out for these. But I didn't, they never really went through what it was what would happen like, anything like that. So I knew it existed, I knew it was serious, I knew I needed to look out for it. And I, on the anxious side of the spectrum. I was constantly worried. I mean, really, pregnancy just amplifies any mental health that you have what in my experience. So I was constantly, you know, panicking, that I was gonna get sick or something. And all that kind of thing. And then when I started to actually get symptoms, you know, I was going, Oh, my gosh, like, am I just making a big deal out of this? Because I'm anxious, or is this really a thing and, you know, every appointment, I've run all this stuff by the obese, and I wasn't seeing the same person consistently, because I was just booked into public hospital. And towards the end of the pregnancy, I stepped on weight really fast, which is another symptom because you start to swell, and you get the edema and all that. But the conversation sort of turned to like trying to make me go to an obesity clinic instead. And this is not the same, like, I know what's healthy and what's not. And I wasn't in like the peak of fitness. When I got pregnant, I'll be the first one to acknowledge that this was different, like it was just so quick. And I had all these other things. Like in all the great times the symptoms, there was only one or I didn't in the end. And so I just didn't feel like I was being taken seriously. And I went to a different hospital, which has been more focused on women's health. And they're the high risk hospital for a huge geographical area. And so I went in and I was diagnosed that day. And I was there for about a week. My blood pressure still is an extreme, like, every doctor I see. They're like, that's not possible. And then my son was born rather than 35 Lakes, I got very sick very quickly and died. And I actually went into the realm of fantasy, which is where you start to see ease. So that happened literally a few minutes after they came and checked me. So the timing was all just perfect. And yeah, so it was all very fast and scary. And and yeah, just crazy. And I think it took me a long time to reassess what had happened. But that sort of then led me to this world of perinatal trauma and the online space has been so helpful, remain silent, not anyone literally in my personal life who's had a similar story. Lots of people like to tell you, they know how you feel when they actually do it. Yeah. And it's always well mannered, but it's not the same. And so, yes, trauma, you own that, but it's not the same. And so I think finding people who could say actually, oh, my gosh, that happened to me. And there's so many intricacies in processing your trauma that I think a lot of people generalize. When you find someone who can be like, No, I had that exact thought like it's just really, it's comforting and it makes you feel like you're not crazy. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And I think too, like I've been left with lifelong problems like I will be on blood pressure medication till I die. We which is more likely to be from like a heart attack now. And, you know, there's just so many things that preeclampsia makes you vulnerable to forever. So it's, it doesn't end with the birth. I think for some people it does, and that's great. But for me, you know, I'm in that sort of tiny categories, people who just another gonna have normal blood pressure. And that's still something I'm cranky on some days. But it's easily manageable. I think it's just another thing that I have to think about now. And you become a parent, like your brain is just going 100 miles an hour as it is, and then you've got to try and remember your own health, which it doesn't come first anymore. So that's what like, I have to have reminders on my phone, like to take a pill and I've never had to do that before, but it's just how my brain works now. Yeah. That's a real, like, brief summary of it. I mean, I have the whole story typed up for people to read on my website. But yeah, sure. Yeah. That's probably the quickest I can summarize what happened. Yeah, that's interesting. You know, this, the preeclampsia, I was the same like people would mentioned. And so yeah, watch out for this wherever. But it was almost like a passing comment. And it wasn't explained that if this did happen, then this this, this would happen. And we'd have to do this, this and this, like, it was just really general. And I think I knew one girl that had to get induced because she had it. But it was like, I didn't really ever understand what it was. And then when you're saying there about, you basically went from preeclampsia to actual preeclampsia. And then it's the thing that now you're dealing with for the rest of your life. I actually didn't know that. So yeah, I'm pleased that you sharing misinformation, because learning suddenly, your clients your side of things is not, I mean, it's not as common like pregnancy as a five to 8% of all pregnancies. So it's like not a lot, but also a lot of when we think of how many pregnancies there are a very small percentage of that. And I think, on paper, I don't think they would have diagnosed me with that, because it sort of started to happen as they were delivering him. So I think they managed to sort of stop it in time, but I did. So it was like my bottom haul, started seizing change. It was like I was trying to do setups like that I couldn't control it. But that's not like talks about the only thing I knew was there's like an episode of Downton Abbey where one of the characters dies from eclampsia. thing that we're talking about? So like it's really not like preeclampsia in and of itself isn't talked about. But then for the people who have that next step. It classier like it's even more quiet. So I try to be as honest as I can just because people need that, like, I need your help. I'm gonna do this. Yeah, I'm very open book. Yeah. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. It's wonderful. It's wonderful. I often say that. It's like, the people that are capable of sharing. It's not like, it's not like yeesh you've obliged to do it, or you have to do it. But it's good. If you can do it for the people that can't share necessarily. So I love that you can do it. And yeah, thank you for doing just on that. Was that. Was that Sybil? Did she have preeclampsia? Yeah, yes. Yeah. So they, I watched the episode. After, I think my son was a few months old. I was watching through it again. And I was like, okay, like, I can do this. But oh my gosh, like the whole I just cried and cried the whole way through. Because I think I have these moments where, like, I just realized, oh, man, I'm gonna cry now. I just realized how close I was like, and that's such a scary thought and watching it, you know, in a big show with all these famous people, like it was just a bit surreal kind of going, Oh, my gosh, that was me. I mean, obviously, in the show, she passes away, and there's a lot of people that do and, and I was so close to that. And so I think the feeling of getting that close, and then coming back is like its whole own category of using being as open as I can about it. Because I know that no matter how stupid I think authority is or how dark it might be, like someone else out there has either had it or is having it right now. And I think that's you gotta have people who can go like, you know, with, you know, crazy, you know, what processing looks like is what trauma does to our brains. Yeah. Trauma is my bread and butter. Like that's what Yeah. And so I know it very intimately on an academic level. I'm personally but then I sort of have these two halves of my brain where, literally, we have two halves. It was sort of like a kid is the emotional side, it's freaking out. And you know, what's happening? I don't know who I am anymore. And then there's the logical brain, my brain like we studied this, we know this. We know what's gonna happen next. Hobbs that we're constantly surprising each other, indicating very well. So he was very strange going through that, like knowing trauma as much as I do. And that's when it's you. All bets are off. Like, it's just totally different when you're the subject of it. So, yeah, yeah, I think there's a lot, a lot of sort of niche stuff, I guess that I can relate to the people. And in the context, like the preeclampsia world, and the perinatal Tron world online is so dominated by the US, which is not a bad thing. Like, they have a lot of people. But I think it's really nice when you can find someone that understands your culture, and your geographical context, and our health system is different. And like all that sort of thing. So I think it's been nice to be able to slot into that space. That was kind of empty. And obviously, there are a lot of survivors and stuff that have accounts, but I think that's more about just their, their life and that kind of thing. Whereas I wanted something that was more open to help people have a space to be like, Oh my gosh, this happened to me, and it sucked. So yeah, I always get very excited when I find other creators. Yeah, for sure. We are literally in comparison to the rest of the world. So I think it's nice that this space is growing in a way that is relatable and accessible to everyone. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. When did you decide that you wanted to share this with others and create this account and get it out there? When was that sort of, in your mind, I started so writing has always not always, but as an adult, I suppose it's been my outlet. And I've never really thought of myself as an autistic person, I think of myself as a creative person. And in my head, they're different things. So I, I was that 2023. So 10 years ago, I was very chronically disliked mystery illness. So I used writing to kind of express that to people because it's really hard to just like sit and talk environment about what's going on. And I found that to be really helpful just for me to get my thoughts out, but also to be able to give them to other people and be like, This is what I'm trying to say. And so from there, you know, I do a few little topical EcoLog stuff over the years about different social justice issues or, or things like that. And then you know, that kind of stopped his life got busier and, and then when my son was born, and I got really sick, I actually started writing it down just to try and remember what happened because neurologically impaired, but also, so called fentanyl, which is a really heavy duty, because they had to start my C section before the anesthetic studying. So he was like, I'm gonna pump you with as much as I can. So I was really out of it for several hours in and out of consciousness in the ICU. And so when I woke up like in the postnatal ward, I was like, I have no idea what just happened. And it's just in flushes coming back to me, I started to just jot those down, knowing that at some stage, I was going to need to write it out properly, and you know, make it sound nice. And then as I did that, like, I didn't have the intention of publicly sharing it. I think I was going to share it like with some close friends and family and just kind of Yeah, there was so much like, particularly the postpartum period as well, like there's so much that I could have verbalized that I could write about. And so I had planned to share it with some and then a few ladies in my life who are midwives and community nurses that I knew who were were very lovely and cared for me very well. After my son was born, and they were like this is get this would help people like if you share this, it would help someone. Yeah, and I just thought you know what, like, on the off chance that there is one person raised there goes and goes, oh my gosh, like, and has that moment that I had reading all the stories? You know, it's what, like, it's worth the vulnerability is that what you say? And experience could help another person start to heal. And I thought, Okay, I'll just do it. And it was lovely. Like literally the day that I started the account, I got a message from someone on the Central Coast in New South Wales. Oh my gosh, like you're the first person in Australia that I've come across who has had a story that's a bit like mine. And I was just so like, it was just the nicest thing to hear obviously, not that they went through that. I know. What I wanted happens, like so fast. And and that's been, it's really been twofold. Like, it's helped me get a lot of stuff out that I needed to, but it's also helped a lot of people start to do that for themselves. And that's just, yeah, it's been really helpful. For me, I think having something to occupy my mind when you're stuck with, you know, a feed or a nap or whatever it is, like having something I can focus on, and still have that best that's beyond just being a mom like that. That's so important to me in a way that I didn't see coming. Like I expected to just be so in love with motherhood, and then it happened. And I was like, this is not what's in the movies. Yeah. So I think having this has been really like, salvation. For me, I think for my mental health, but just having something to do, like, you know, you just feel so the immobile sometimes as a stay at home parent. Having having an outlet to still create and share and stuff has been essential for me. Yeah, and it's led me to some really lovely people. So that's always a bonus as well. Yeah. And on that. I noticed on your, your web, your web page that you share stories from other mums? Yeah. And did that start to happen fairly quickly? Or is that something that you sort of happened as you went along? Meeting people and stuff. I think that wasn't like, an intention that I have, in the beginning, it sort of organically happened, I think. And not just about like people with preeclampsia. Like, there's so many things that I'm passionate about, like, as a social worker, you care about a lot of things. You know, there's not really a topic that I'm not happy to share. But I just started with, like my sister's story, you know, she had pregnancy loss, and then had my nephew on Christmas Eve, and had a really difficult postpartum period. And so he wrote that up. And, you know, the more I sort of started sharing, the more I thought, there's so many things that are just like, what I went through that someone else is sitting there going like, Okay, I didn't have preeclampsia, but I had a miscarriage, it stopped. So I think I like to keep it fairly open. And I know like, all the advice you get with like social media is assigned a nation stick to it. And it was like, there's too many things. Like, I looked at some other accounts that have these beautiful, like, stains with the colors. And you know, that one's spotty. And that one's got flowers. And I just thought pink, so I thought I might as well be like that with my website. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. So I think it's really cool. Like the amount of people who hoo do contact me and go, like, I want to, I don't know where to start, like, so at first, it was just sharing stuff that people had already written out. But now it's kind of at a, you know, guiding people through that. And that's been a real privilege to, you know, sit with someone, well sit with someone online, and kind of help them say what they want to say in a way that fits who they are, and their experience, and just the excitement and the emotion that they have in their story going out there. And, like, it's just so special when someone comes to me and says, like, I've never shared this before, but I really want to, and that's just beautiful. Like, it's a connection that, you know, I've never had in any other way. Yeah, so it's been great. And there's just so many people in my own life that I think like your stories and people need to hear it. Yeah. So I do not have nagged a few people. But it's great for them. Like I love seeing other people have that moment of like, okay, people hear my story, and I take it seriously. And, you know, my story has value. And yes, yes, storytelling is like the ancient form of communication. And I think we lost that a little bit over time. And so I think, sort of stepping back into that has been more emotional than I expected. And just an honor, like I always just feel so privileged when somebody trusts me with that, like, it's a really big responsibility. So I do take it very seriously. Yeah, that's lovely. I think people can sometimes think that what they've got to say isn't a value because they don't hold a status in society, or because they don't have 100,000 followers or, you know, because whatever reason people can sort of, what's that? That? Yeah, they can, they can really diminish the value of the, of what they've got to say, and it's even people that I've had on this on this podcast over the years, they are I'm not creative, I'm not good enough. I'm not whatever it's like, I can see that you are, you know, I'm not telling you, you know, I'm not going to force people, you know, you have to be on the show. And just give people a bit of time to think about it, like to support them. And then people will come back to me and go, actually, yes, I would like to come on, you know, and that's like, yes. Like, I feel like, I want you to see yourself as we see, you know, like, you have so much to add and even someone the other day, just as are wrapping up the episode that like, I hope that was okay, I feel like I, what I've got to say isn't isn't good enough, or isn't big enough. It's like, seriously, like, I like you sit with someone for an hour or an hour and a half. And you just take, like what they've got to say so valuable. Like I just I want people to feel like empowered that they have a space and they have, they have people that will find value in what they have to say, you know, absolutely, people. We are our own worst critics as women. We're taught to believe that we need to be bigger and better than we are. And so I do it myself all the time. Like, I second guessed everything I look at even stuff like my life story, like Medically speaking, I should be dead. Like I survived something that even my specialists couldn't make sense. So, like I know that to be and still understand. Oh, it's not interesting. You know, we played Dan Brown it was actually your, like, you know, your list of things that you talked about on the podcast? Yeah. Yeah. So when I read through that, and there's the whole section on McGill, and I was just like, I mean, I've been reflecting on that so much, because I think I had this realization of like, obviously, I can relate to mom guilt, but it's just this extension of like, woman guilt that I've had my whole life. And, you know, a Carlin's like yeah, I've been a bit obsessed with that idea, since I read that a few weeks ago, and I just thought, oh my gosh, like, so much mental energy goes into being a woman that, then is exacerbated as a mother because there's all these expectations on you. And no, we really have this like, No, I'm not enough of the stuff that I should be in a hole, but I'm too much of stuff. And we have this contradiction that we just sit in all the time. And yeah, like, just my own experience happened. And I still doubt it. Like, I went through, like, medical evidence that it happened, and I still kind of feel maybe I'm just making a big deal. But like, I shouldn't even deal with it. Because that's what it is. And that's the same of any story. Like anything that's happened to you is important and relatable, and I'm trying so hard not to or to challenge I guess that that little voice that I have of like, got to make sure everything's perfect. Why? Yeah, yeah, Little did you know that your email like unleashed this whole war. I'm so pleased. And my work here is done. Exactly. Then I read the rest of your list as I got to my mind. It really did make me think about like, how I where I placed my value as a mom and just as a person. And how much subtle stuff there is out there telling us what we need to be like I'm well and truly good enough for my son and I know that but I still you know, I don't know how many times a day I convinced myself that's not true. Particularly because like my postpartum, I did not like my baby for a solid two months of his life. And that still makes me feel horrible to say out loud. But it's true like I was so like wrecked from everything that happened and separated from him, you know, I didn't get to meet him for 24 hours. But even then my brain just doesn't when other people have to wait more than that, like some people have to wait a week. You trying to justify Yeah, I still didn't meet my babies for 24 hours. And so I think that really affected the way that I make sense of it is that it affected my ability to bond to him, because even though I didn't meet him, like I met him the next day or the next night, and then I was still in the ICU a day or so. And then I was on a different word to him because he was in special care. And like I say, session was so fast that I could barely walk like it was yeah, you know, I find out how long other sections went for. And I think Oh, my God, mine was not that long, like, so it was very rough. And like, physically, I was quite damaged. I mean, nothing was wrong, but it was just super and yeah, so it was, it was a full week, like until we went home. And then, you know, I had this tiny human, and I just look at him and be like, I don't want to feel these things for you. And I don't. And so that was like a whole journey. And I think that really affected how I could view myself as a mom, because in my head, I was like, what sort of doesn't like me, like, what sort of mom doesn't want to spend time with her baby, you know, because we get told this beautiful view of motherhood, which it can be like, I have those feelings now of just joy. And you know, I look at him and I want to eat him. And but when you don't have that, from day one, I think the world sort of wants you to believe that there's something wrong with you. And there was something wrong with me that was completely out of my control. And I needed a lot of help. But that didn't make me a bad mom, you know, I met his needs, and that sort of thing. So I think going into motherhood that way, it really, really made that voice very loud. That told me that I wasn't enough of this. I was too much of that my son doesn't. Like all that kind of thing was so loud for the first little while of his life. And thankfully, you know, therapy and medication has made that voice much more quiet. But it's still there. And I think that's what sucks thing a woman like that voice is always in the back of your head kind of telling you that it's your fault, or you need to do this and you need to Yeah, you haven't done good enough or you haven't done the right thing. Yeah. I think women have the role. We are given the role of making sure everything's great. We get no credit for that. And then if something goes wrong, we get blamed for that. Yes, it's like an impossible task. Isn't it? Like, you're set up to fail right from the start? Yes. Yeah. I even tried to do an experiment last week. I was like, You know what, because I can't be the only one that's done this. I bumped into like a chair, my ankle, like get the chair like and I apologize. Yeah. What? I just apologize for pieces. Like that's how brainwashed I've been to believe that. Everything is my fault just for existing. I was like, You know what, I'm gonna do an experiment in the next 24 hours. I'm going to count how many times I apologize. Not so like stuff because I've actually done wrong, but just as apologies that we make, like, as an instinct. I couldn't keep up not because there was heaps, I just, it's so natural in my brain to be like, I'm so sorry I exist, that I couldn't count them. And I thought that's so sad. Like, it's so sad. My husband doesn't have that problem ever. Like, I've never seen him apologize to a chair. I've seen any man apologize to a chair. So I think like there's so much work for me to do, but it's exhausting that I have to do. And then like trying to do all of this at the same time as being a mom like, oh, yeah, we have a lot on our shoulders and no one you can't see it. It's there. And yeah, I just think the more honest we can be about motherhood the good guy, but I don't think we just need to focus So on the yucky parts, but everyone has yucky parts. And if we pretend that we don't we just, we do such a disservice to each other as women, and as moms by convincing ourselves that we need to be perfect. And, you know, so I am so grateful to have found, I think, a community of people who are all trying to be really honest about the crap, because we're all gonna have it, you know, we'll all have the great times too. But I think we need each other, to be really honest about how hard it can be to transition into parenthood, and then to stay there like, yeah, yeah. And then all those stages that come through, you know, like, it's brought up, and then they change. And it's like, yeah, you're just constantly learning from scratch. And so I think, yeah, I think stay at home parents are like the backbone of society. Podcast, honestly, that that is another group of people I have so much respect for, because I couldn't do it, I literally couldn't do it, I think I have a certain amount of minutes in my day that I can be completely focused on my children. And then I've got to go do something else. Because it's like, my brain just doesn't have the capacity for that. I need that outlet, I need something for me. But I feel like the patriarchy and that system that's been set up, it encourages us to compete against each other, you know, it's pits us against each other, she's doing this, or I can do this, blah, blah, and what you're saying, I totally 100% agree with, like, sharing what's real, sharing the challenges and saying, It's okay, we all have crap times, you know, like, I'm, I'm getting so good. Now, it just, you know, laughing about the fact that my kids can't find their shoes in the morning. Like, it's just, you know, it's we never, ever really sprays morning, and that's what life is. And then also, you know, being kind to myself and going, you're not going to You can't expect this, like TV or Hollywood version of life. You know, I found that really tricky. with mine, having both my boys by never had a spontaneous, like going into labor. So I never got that moment of oh, my waters broken down the street or, you know, like, the on the on the telly. And never, I never had a normal, normal. I'll put that in air quotes, because that's such thing as normal, but a straightforward birth without complications. I've had one that was born in an hour and a half, and one that was born by emergency C section. And you have these images in your mind of what's going to happen when the baby's born, they put it on you, and this happens, and you go home and everything's, it's like, it's bullshit. It's just setting you up for trouble and failure in your mind. Because that's not life. It's not real. So the more we can tell each other, that what is happening to us is normal, and his life and things are gonna go wrong. And things aren't always gonna go the way we expect. And the better, we'll all be, I think, absolutely. You have your dream book. And this is something that actually my therapist, that's me, I think, you know, first session, I was very lucky that I was able to get into see a perinatal trauma therapist who actually knows what she's talking about. And she said, You know, I see a lot of women like me that have bursts that are just horrendous, but I also see a lot of women who have the birth that they wanted, and still were left feeling traumatized by something. And so like, you know, I believe that women can birth and they can do it safely, and they can do it freely. But I also believe there are a lot of us that even if all goes to plan, we're still gonna walk away traumatized, and that's okay. And yeah, I just thought, oh my gosh, you think about like, like, just the baby blues, the hormones and my when my sister was about to have the baby, I said to her, I was like, isn't gonna make sense now. But it will was like those first two weeks, you're going to feel like the world is ending and that it never going to change. But it will like it just will when you hit that sort of two week mark, and you're home and settle down, like, the fog will pass and be able to see everything again. So remember that first time, she was like, What am I done? I don't know what I'm doing, like, everything's wrong, and it's never gonna get better. I was like, I told you this was gonna happen. I was like, it's predictable. And sure enough, within a fortnight, she's like, Oh, this isn't so that. Things like that, where we try and we make this sort of beautiful newborn bottle that. I mean, some people have gone yeah, but a lot of us don't like I feel like more people struggle than not. And, you know, we shouldn't be honest about that. Because otherwise we make parents who just feel like they're broken from day one. Yeah, yeah, there's something wrong with you. Yeah, it sucks because it's like there's something inherent about you that's wrong. And that's had like fighting that and challenging that is It's a lot of mental work and needs to go daily to keep alive. Like, yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's all encompassing. Yes, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. When you said before about not having that sort of the connection with your son a little bit of time, I wanted to say something about that, but I'm not sure how to word it. And I don't want to keep talking about myself, because this isn't my show. But what it is, but you know what I mean, it's not my special episode. So I'm conscious of that. So I might, but I'm sort of trying to lead into it with it. I had an experience where I was because of this the second child emergency C section, I was so and I might be a little bit selfish, but I was thinking, I have to heal, right, my body has been cut open, how many other layers you go through, it's the most invasive surgery you can have. You know, and then I'm not allowed to lift things. I'm not allowed to drive. So I can't you know, I'm physically bound to my home. I couldn't really walk that well. Like, I was still recovering from that. And I thought, No, I'm expected to take care of this baby. And I thought this is bullshit. You know, how is this right? And I was quite, I guess, resentful. Probably the right word. So I found it difficult to sort of be all in, in this happy bubble land of baby because it was like, hang on a second. What about me? Yeah, you know, and then I thought, I can't say that, because it's all about the baby. You know what I mean? Did you? Yeah, I think because my therapist asked me outright, she was like, Do you blame your son for what happened? Like, do you because I was talking about this, like, I don't feel anything like, I know that I'm supposed to be all mushy and love him more than anything. And I don't feel it. And she was like to blame him for getting sick and nearly dying. And I could honestly say, No, what I did blame him for was taking all of that time. And I couldn't focus on healing myself, like that. I felt like every time, you know, I'd need to do something. And not just like, medical appointments, because I don't want to have appointments. So appointment to do for the first two weeks of his life. So obviously, I had to go to those. But every time I wanted to pay, he'd start crying. And I'd be like, Oh, my gosh, I can't even go to the toilet without failing you as a parent. And so I did, I have a lot of resent, I think towards him. Not, I don't know, because that sounds like a strong word. But that's what it was. You know, I just I looked at him. And I'd be like, because of you I can't be okay. That's just that was my reality at the time. And thankfully, you know, I have a husband who loves being a dad, and, you know, spent the first week being really the sole parent. And he took that on and has just run with it, you know, from day one, and not everybody has that. So I'm very blessed in that way. I had a mom who was at my house every day, you know, to do all the chores, like, you know, I have my little village that and I still was like that I need to be me again. That was like, I think after you have any kind of traumatic birth, figuring out who you are, is hard. Because you can't go back to what you were not who you want to be yet. You're just this like in between person that you don't recognize. And then you have this little squealing child that you know needs. They're relentless, relentless, and they should be exposed today. But when you're in that space of trying to just like survive, it's sort of the last thing that you need. And so I did, I felt really like a lot of that struggle to attach to him was because he was the barrier at the same time and overcoming that is difficult. And I had lots of support, and I still struggled. So there are a lot of people out there and it may be gave me so much respect for the families that I've worked with in the past. I was like, you know, the fact that like, your kid is five and like, I'm only hearing you that now it's like this is not so stressed that I was under with every possible support I could want. Yeah, it really made me realize who was in my corner. So that was a good thing, but I definitely you know, I'd look at this perfect little face and I'd be like yeah, and that just felt like I felt like a monster. I felt like some awful like, troll that had crawled out from under the bridge and like hated the baby. But like that Here's how I felt, I felt like I was on my own. I felt like, I'd made this huge mistake and brought this child into the world that I didn't want. And that, you know, I really felt like I never would like I'd look at, you know, moms loving their kids. And I'd be like, how do you do? Like, I don't have that, and I want that. And I did get there. But, you know, two months is a long time really, when you think about how much I had to do to get to that point. So it's just yeah, I think it feels like it goes against our nature as women to say out loud, like, I do not like my baby. And that is that we have to stay in, because people feel that way. Like, and that's what I mean, like, you can care for a child and meet all their needs and still not have that joy. And that's okay. Yeah, yeah. One day might not be swimming, but it happens slowly. And thankfully, I got there in time. I needed to have that space to heal. Like, I don't think I think I'd still be struggling if I didn't have the ability to prioritize like it was a bit of a weird silver lining of a traumatic birth was that I could leave him with people. And know he was okay. You know, I know so many moms that who have that beautiful oxytocin rush at birth, who they'd be thinking about their baby nonstop and your brains. Our brains are supposed to be wired that way. Right? And so and I just be like, yeah, that's, yeah, that's a good point, actually. Now you say it, I feel felt the same way. But I hadn't really put my finger on it. Cuz he, he, as soon as you know, he was born, he was whisked off to the little box thing they put him in to keep them warm. And he was also given formula. And that was like a weight off of my shoulders. Because not all on me anymore. I am like, the biggest formula fan. In the world, I literally had no choice because my milk never came in. But I was so desperate diversity, and again, fell to the mother because I couldn't. But formula meant that I could recover. But I could leave who was my husband and I could have four nights of sleep. Like, it just gave us something that I don't think we could have had. I addressed it. And honestly, if I have another one, I don't think I even want to try breastfeeding because I was traumatized by the process of it not working. But I actually reflecting not that long ago, and I this is one of those things, I'd totally forgotten that. That sort of really emphasized my, where I was sitting in terms of like, not having a lot of emotion for my baby. I took him for a six week noodles. And my sister was with me and you know, the nurse was like, giving me all this prep on like, you're gonna be really distressed because he's gonna cry and it's gonna upset you. And I said, No, I'll be fine. She was like, No, really, like, everyone says that and then they burst into tears. So just be ready. And in my head, I was like, I don't care. Like, I don't care if he cried. And then he did. He started crying. And she looked at me and she was like, patting my arm. She's like, he's okay. And I literally looked her in the eye and I won't be sad, worse. And she just raised her eyebrows and I can see what's happening. My sister's sitting there with tears pouring down and she's like, just sitting there so indifferent. I completely forgot that happened. And my sister the other day, she was like, Yeah, you would not okay. Yeah, yeah. That's how I felt like I listened to him cry, and I felt nothing. And like, I was just what happened? I can't change it. And, you know, it didn't mean that I didn't care about him or like, I think I was. I did a lot of distancing, I think because I was just expecting to die like at any moment, I was not real panic of you know, it's not over yet. Because preeclampsia you can develop up to six weeks after you have a baby. So yeah, so you can have postpartum preeclampsia or help syndrome or pregnancy, which are like the sort of more severe versions. And so I knew that I was still in that time frame like I so I think I spent a long time trying not to get to know him because I thought if something happens to me like it's going to be harder for you. You to them not have a mom, like, you know, here's this big you didn't know what was happening. But that's how I was rationalizing. And so it was hard like trying to survive and care for a baby and still be yourself and find things that make you happy. And you just get bombarded with all of these things. I just need to rest, restaurants appearances is difficult. But I'm glad that I prioritized it because I think it gave me strength to then try and make the other things more positive or whatever. Yeah, but I mean, again, back to like, being a woman, resting is nowhere else. So even though I just been sliced open to my very core and back together really quickly, and you know, all that stuff. I was still like, no, like, I don't deserve rest. But, you know, that's just what I needed. So I think my body eventually just gave out and would just go to sleep, like at a moment's notice. You know, yes, my son had to wait, sometimes it meant that I could do it. And now, you know, I lost him. And I have all of those feelings that I wanted. And you know, that stuff came in time. It's hard, when the only stories that you're seeing and hearing are people that, you know, have that moment where they're on their chest, and they kiss the partner, and they have this beautiful golden hour. And, you know, and that's all you see, it's very hard to see your own experience as worth anything or real or, like, you just kind of look with envy, or these videos. Like, I still feel weird. I still feel weird seeing videos of, you know, moms that have their babies immediately placed on them, or like, I just instantly still feel jealous. You know, obviously, I would not wish my experience on anyone. But I, you know, I wanted that for me. And I didn't get it. And that was its own grief, like processing the loss of experience that I felt good about was a huge part of coming to terms. Yeah, yeah. What happens when your baby? Let's see, isn't it? And the thing that annoys me is like, people say, Arpit, women have been having babies for 1000s of years, blah, blah, blah, and it's like, but hang on a sec. So many things would have gone wrong over those 1000s of years. And I wanted to ask, and I don't know if this might be an insensitive question. So you can tell me to bugger off if you want to. But did you ever say that you sort of had any sort of feelings about when you talked before about being so close to death and surviving? Did you ever think like, imagine if I was, you know, in a third world country, or imagine if I was stuck at home, or you know how things would have gone 100% Particularly because preeclampsia I mean, the fatality statistics, the vast majority, like are in developing countries, because they don't have prenatal care and all that sort of thing. But even like, if I had done what my OB told me to do, I will be dead. If I had just gone home and relaxed and you know, not thought about it, and like, there's no way like I would have had a seizure at home, my blood pressure went insane. And then I would have died at home. Like it absolutely would have happened. So yes, that was on my mind, a lot like the timing of it was, was just, I see it as a miracle as someone who has faith, but like I said, when you have preeclampsia in hospital, they check your blood pressure, at least hourly. So it's very frequent. And mine was very unpredictable. So the medication wasn't really working. And so they were checking me super frequently. In the space of half an hour I went from like not concerning to our version of the code blue, which is called a map call. And that's where everyone runs in and they do all your tests. And, you know, within 15 minutes of that I started seizing 20 minutes later, my son was born and I was off to the ICU. So like the speed at which all of that happened. And like the fact that I was in hospital like I'm so proud of myself while listening to my gut instinct being like, Hey, I know you see the paranoid with your health, but let's go get checked in anyway. I yeah, I just thought and I still think so often of women who don't survive because they don't have access to what they need. To whether that's a medical professional or medication or whatever, like I think I was in the absolute best place I could have been when that happened. And even then it was a close call. So I marveled at the timing of everything and I just, my heart breaks every time I read a story about a mum, either a mum who dies or a baby like this preeclampsia can very quickly lead to placental abruption, which is very difficult for a little one to survive. And just a number of stories that I've read that sounds similar to mine, but they end with somebody passing away is heartbreaking. And, you know, regardless of what country you're in, but particularly for vulnerable women, you know, whether that's your racial background, or geographically where you live, like, there's just so much that factors into what kind of care you get. And like, I can't fault the kid that I had, like it was absolutely spot on and save my life. But yeah, the amount of people that don't have that is just so upsetting. And preeclampsia is just such a weird, like, no one knows why it happens. Like, it's still this big mystery that affects so many people, and particularly, you know, in developing countries, or even in some rural areas where you're really far away from your health care, I just think, oh my gosh, like if I even I was thinking about, like, I brought my mat lay forward because of my blood pressure. And I was like, I could have still been at work. Like, I could have still been, obviously, it was a Saturday. So, you know, wouldn't have been at work. But like that could have happened on a weekday, like the first day that I got really, really sick, was a Wednesday at lunchtime. And so I just couldn't stop thinking about like, the what ifs? What if person? Yeah, most anxiety people are, but I think I have to dwell on them a little bit. Like I have to give them some space to play out. Otherwise, they just played my mind. So you work through them? Yeah. There's so many aspects of my son's birth that I was like, Oh, my gosh, what is that? What is that? And thankfully, none of them came to pass. But yeah, it's very surreal, I think to look at what could have happened very easily what could have happened? And I'm reminded of that, because every time they see a doctor, they want to know, like, what happened to my blood pressure? And they looked at me like, I don't think you're right. Like, I don't think that's possible. And yet, yes, yes, it's possible because here I stand. So like, I get this reminder at every appointment, I thought there's no way you could have survived that. I think, I know, that's not like, as a yay, but it doesn't make me feel better. I hope to that in my lifetime, we see an answer to how to prevent it. Like, because that's what's scary about everything. Nervous gutters, and you can still get it. How do you? How do you? How do you fight that? I'm very passionate about and research and all that kind of thing now, on a witness just because, you know, I had everything I needed to know what it was. And it still took me by surprise. So the amount of people that you know, if they have a dodgy healthcare provider, or you know, there's so many things that could lead to you not not taking any notice, or just pregnancy being uncomfortable. Like there's so many symptoms of preeclampsia that you could just go oh, well, you know, I'm pregnant. So yeah, what I'm supposed to feel like shit. And like, sometimes. But I think like, yeah, it's just it's so important for women to trust themselves. Yes, yeah. We know that we know when we got feel good. And I can pretty much guarantee that everyone in the world, or at least in the developed world, will have a experience of trying to share something with particularly a male provider and being told like, no, that's not possible or like to go for a walk in assumption, or something like that when we're talking about a life threatening illness. That people can I walk away feeling dismissed. And then like within a week, I nearly died. That's a big deal. And the reason I didn't was because I went, you know what stuff you I'm gonna go and get it anyway. And 10 years ago, I wouldn't have had that, like, I wouldn't have had the confidence to trust myself. So, because we are taught to believe that what we think is less than why because of it, because we tell ourselves that we're just making a big deal out of nothing, but yet someone else knows better. So we couldn't possibly be right. To be like our own hype girl, like I'm getting, that's my goal is to try and be like, yes. I don't care if you can get stupid. Yeah, look this off. There was a post. I don't know how long ago I saw it on Instagram. It was basically people sharing their stories of times when, and this was in, in labor, particularly when they weren't listened to. And the amount of stories it was just appalling. And some of the outcomes were quite serious. And I mean, I didn't have it, I had a little a little moment like that, where by my like I said before, my son was born an hour and a half. And the he was my first delivery. And the doctor sort of joked I'll see you in 10 to 14 hours, you know, he went off to do a cesarean or something. And I literally felt within about half an hour that I felt like, I needed to push like, I felt like this, like I needed to do a poll. Basically, I described it as though there was a bowling ball coming out of my bottom. That's how it felt. And I said to the nurse, I feel like I've got a push. And she just looked at me with a shock on her face. And she she just she freaked out. And she went and got him. And he come in and he just went surely not like this. And I just thought you fucker. Anyway, he did an internal and he could feel the baby's head. I was like, Why don't you listen to us? We know what's going on in our bodies, like, Damn, you all makes us so cross. Yeah, it shouldn't be revolutionary for a doctor to believe that you're not feeling good. Like, literally your job. Guess to deal with sick people. So if I'm sitting here, whether that's I'm ready to push, or whether that's like, Hey, Doc, I've had a headache and dizziness for like two years, and I don't know what's wrong. Like, it's actually your job to listen to me and to believe me. And you know what my husband's never walked away from an appointment being made to feel like he doesn't know what's wrong. He just, he's always, I love him dearly. He's always like, just shocked when he hears these stories of like, this actually happened. Like I had an appointment once I went in, because I have it's a form of tinnitus, that like you can hear your heartbeat really loudly and it was getting me up at night, like I couldn't sleep. So it was really bad. And you know, because I don't trust doctors. Sometimes I Googled it. And I was like, Okay, this could be a brain tumor. So I should probably go check. I went into this doctor, I explained it. And he told me that I probably just need to drink more water. Oh, and then looked at my file and saw that I have PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome. And so she talked to me about that. And I said, I know like, I'm not managing that, like with my other doctor. I'm just here because I want to check that this isn't serious. And he proceeded to lecture me on my fertility for about 15 minutes, we really should start thinking about like trying to have a baby soon at this point. I was not with my husband, I was not in a place where I wanted to have a baby, or anything like that. And I was like, I just hear about my ear. Like, I'm here to talk to you about a noise in my ear. And you're trying to talk to me about my ovaries like this actually isn't any of your business, right? You're overstepping your boundaries. So much like energy has to challenge that in the moment. Like I think, again, experience I hear so often, including my own as women, as you sit in this appointment, just completely astounded at what you're hearing that the first time you try and challenge it, they shut it down. And it's like, you know what, whatever, like, do you speech? I'll go home. I'll Google it some more figured out. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we shouldn't have to resort to Google, we should be able to go to any doctor and say, Hey, these are my symptoms returned. What could it be? Yeah. And I think I look I've had these experiences with female healthcare providers to I think it's not just men but I immediately have like, my like antennas go up if I have to see a male doctor because I just my first ever experience that I was talking about at the start of this 10 years ago, I got Lyme disease when I was in America. Yeah, we don't have that here quote, unquote. So there's no testing for it. There's no anything so I was sick with this for nearly two years. But at the start of it, you know, I had all these symptoms. I went to a GP that I Just could get into. So I was 18 at the time, or sorry, just 19. So a baby, a baby with no backbone. And so I sat down and you know, they asked you if there's a possibility can be pregnant, which is fine, because they have to. And I said, No. And he came back to it. And he was happy. You sure? And I said, Yo, I've never been sexually active. So I'm pretty confident. And he literally he raised his eyebrows and said to me, I find that hard to believe. Ah, what do you say to that? Like, I dare anyone to say that to me now, like, with the amount of no crap given that I have now, you know, I hate him. But back then, like our baby, 19 year old with no self esteem. I just, I was like, What the heck. And that was my first experience of like, that feeling of going, okay, so you just think I'm crazy. Like you respect me at all. So I think like, it's it happens. It's real. And then, you know, fast forward to when I was pregnant. And I was being told that I needed to go to an obesity clinic at 33 weeks pregnant. And I was told, like, she told me I needed to lose weight. Like, these babies got another like kilo or two to go, like, in what way? Can I lose weight? She's like, What very least you can't gain any weight. I was like, Okay, again, my baby still got to like, chop out. Like, she was crazy. And what I mean, she was crazy. But it was just, it was mental. I was like, crying. So I was like, This is not like, you know, I had self esteem issues my way in anyway. I was like, Why? Why are we talking about this? You know, and then the next appointment, I was told all of these symptoms, just don't worry about it, you just need to relax more like enjoy your maternity leave. Can you just look at my flashing. That happened a week, I was gonna ask that actually, if any of these people you've come across again and be like, actually, I almost died. So get started, I haven't because I went, I switched hospitals. So I had like shared care with the high risk hospital. And that's where I ended up going because they had just completely redone. Like their birthing suites and everything and they have, it's really good. It's basically an emergency department, but for pregnant people. So I went there, because I was like, uh, you guys know, that I am trying to. And when I say trying to I mean, it's on my list and never at the top of my list, because maybe the Social Work team at the hospital, I burst that, like, open for feedback. So caliber long after your birth. And so I plan to have a meeting with them and just kind of go through. Because it's all in the same local health district. I can kind of point out like, Hey, can we have a look at like, who I saw at this thing, because they need to know that when I sat there, and I told them, that I had a headache, and that my vision was blurry. My right shoulder was hurting. And, you know, I was swelling up so much that like, I could push my finger in and it would just leave a dent like it was disgusting. And like all of that I was just told to relax and not to worry about it. And when you look at a list of symptoms of preeclampsia are all there like? So it's a matter of actual education? Like, I mean, I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a part of me that wanted to just be like, like, I nearly died, that. I also want them to do that. Like I wants to know that the next person they see that runs through everything that's happening. They don't just dismiss it and go, Oh, well, you know, you're pregnant, you're likely to be uncomfortable, you know? Yes, you're likely to be uncomfortable, but not to this extent. That's it. Yeah. So I do like, I'm quite passionate about health care providers, not just knowing more, because they know the symptoms. They know them, but seeing it and hearing it and actually taking it seriously. Yeah. Because you don't want to be the doctor that told someone they were fine. And not to worry about it. And then they die. And that's on you. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like your job is there to catch this stuff. And to help prevent it and manage it. And if you can't do that, then maybe find another job. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? I really saw and just the way that they were treated like I had one midwife, she was lovely. She had probably in the late 40s. And she was the first one to catch my blood pressure during the weird thing where it like split and went into opposite directions. And so she went and grabbed like one of the old days and here's a young, a young guy. He was so dismissive to her work when she was telling him what had happened. And he was like, No, that's not possible. And then he checked my blood pressure and I did the same thing. And then he went on like announced it to everyone because it was So interesting. Like, like, he'd found it. Cool. And I just like, looked at her and I was like, what just happened? And she just sort of rolled her eyes and she's like, Oh, young doctors, like they're all the same. And I was like, I know that like, still, you know, I'm watching this guy who looked younger than me, right? A woman with 20 plus years new recruit experience, or, you know, a new thing that he hadn't seen. And I was like, no, like, like, the midwives are the ones that I was crying on, and that were helping me like, try and walk after three days in an ICU. They were the ones helping, because my C section was so fast that by the time I got back to postnatal, they, they didn't even have time to wake me up, like I was still covered, like, in my blood is disgusting. And so like, you know, I was grossed out by that. But obviously, midwives they've seen everything so gentle and calm and and like, the doctors would come in for 30 seconds every day and be like, yeah, right, by, you know, but the midwives, they were the ones that like I hadn't read, like, who the one who respected them that call. She came and visited me three days after, like, interface, Natal, or just check in and I was like, That's so nice. Like, I know that I could go and find the doctor and he wouldn't have a clue who I was he wouldn't days ago. So I think there's yeah, there's at every level, women are really disadvantaged and made to believe that we don't know what we're talking about. We actually make the world go round. Absolutely. Oh, my gosh, she could not have said it better. I feel like sometimes, like if we just went on strike, what would happen to the world? You know, if we just went up not doing it anymore, you guys sorted out countries have successfully passed some pretty significant legislation because women go on a sex strike. story seriously, it's like radicals will ever read. And it's in countries that would surprise you to like, this is not happening in the developed world. And I was just like, oh my gosh, I'm getting that sounds awesome. Power. Yes. When men don't get what they want, it's a bit how much you have. But it's not taken seriously when we're actually trying to like use it. You know, beneficial things. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. That's thing you can sometimes you can feel like so amazing and wonderful. Like we birth we bring the next generation to the world we raise them and then somebody's like, just take the piss out of you at the petrol station because you don't know how to put the hubcap on or you know, it's just something like that, like, and then you're like, This is where I've made in the world. If I say something, and then a man copies exactly what I say and then everyone is good idea. And I used to just be silent and now I literally go Oh, I wish someone else had said the first like I always have to point it out now because I just get so nabbed. Yes. You can't let it go. Like Yeah. Yeah. A lot of like, a lot of guys that I know and love, don't even realize they do it. Like that's how subtle it is. Yep. And I was, how's this for a proud wife a moment. So my husband, we were having dinner because I caught myself Nan's gleaning today halfway through the sentence, and I immediately apologize. A little feminist izany put on him. You have no idea how much has changed. It's been so good. Like, it's been really a loved one. And I'm happy to learn about privilege. Like I think it's, it's only a good thing. And there's actually if you've not read it, I feel like you'd like it. There's a book called, say what you made me do by Jeff Hill, and it's about domestic abuse. But her chapter on patriarchy is just phenomenal. Like, if you could isolate that chapter on its own, it is the best break down and she's an Aussie. So it's using all these statistics, which I really like. But I think just writing in such a way that like my husband, and was like, Oh my gosh, I had no idea. This is how much the patriarchy hurts me. And yeah, like that sort of thing. So it's definitely it's a resource that I recommend to everyone when I talk about this, which is Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's really good. I think it's really powerful is if a guy can read something about patriarchy and not feel offended by it. It's written well, yeah, like he's not being attacked and it's kind of feel like his place is being threatened. I guess. Thank you so much for spending so much time with me today. I've loved chatting with you and going over some some big topics and breaking some stuff down was my favorite thing to do. I love it. Thank you for bearing with me. And thank you so much for sharing. So honestly, I really appreciate it and I know that the listeners will appreciate hearing from you. So thanks again. It's been wonderful. My pleasure and all the best and yeah, keep I'll keep my eye out on your Instagram and laugh along with you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Elim Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Rebecca McMartin Australian podcaster + mental health advocate S3 Ep80 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Today I welcome Rebecca McMartin to the podcast, Rebecca is a podcaster and digital creator based in Sydney, Australia, but sees herself first and foremost as a storyteller and mum of a little boy, nicknamed Pudge. Rebecca was always drawn to reading and writing as a creative and therapeutic outlet, and studied several creative writing and journalism courses in the hopes of pursuing her passion. Ultimately, she gave up this pursuit due to the fear of not being 'creative' or good enough. Following an acute mental health crisis when her son was born, Rebecca returned to writing as a way to process her pain and grief. It was from this experience that she decided to harness the power of storytelling and start Perinatal Stories Australia - a podcast, blog, and social media platform for Australian women to share their lived experiences with perinatal mental ill health, which she works on between motherhood moments. Through holding space for these vulnerable conversations, Rebecca hopes to increase awareness, to advocate for maternal mental health causes, to reduce stigma, to inform listeners about the support services available, to improve mental health literacy, and to make sure no mother feels alone in her struggles. This episode contains mentions of many mental health disorders including anxiety, depression, PTSD, panic attacks, as well as birth trauma and grief. Connect with Rebecca website / instagram / facebook Podcast - instagram / website Gidget House Subscribe to the podcast weekly email here - never miss an episode If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their works been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Thank you so much for tuning in. Today. It is lovely to welcome you into my studio here in Mount Gambier in South Australia. As I'm recording this today, it's a beautiful 22 degrees Celsius outside. That's about 70 and Fahrenheit. If the sun is shining, there's a light breeze, there's not a cloud in the sky. And you can probably hear the birds are singing. I thought I'd leave my window open and give you a little taste what it feels like to be in my part of the world. Today I'm welcoming Rebecca McMahon to the podcast. Rebecca is a podcaster and digital creator based in Sydney, Australia. But she sees herself first and foremost as a storyteller, and mom of a little boy nicknamed Pudge. Rebecca was always drawn to reading and writing as a creative and therapeutic outlet and studied several creative writing and journalism courses in the hopes of pursuing her passion. Ultimately, she gave up this pursuit due to the fear of not being creative, or being good enough, following an acute mental health crisis when her son was born, Rebecca returned to writing as a way to process her pain and grief. It was from this experience that she decided to harness the power of storytelling, and start perinatal stories Australia, a podcast blog and social media platform for Australian women to share their lived experiences with perinatal mental ill health, which she works on between motherhood moments. Through holding space for these vulnerable conversations. Rebecca hopes to increase awareness to advocate for maternal mental health causes to reduce stigma to inform listeners about the support services available to improve mental health literacy, and to make sure no mother feels alone in her struggles. Please be aware this episode contains mentions of many mental health disorders, including anxiety, depression, post traumatic stress disorder, panic attacks, as well as birth trauma and grief. Thanks again for tuning in. It really is such a pleasure to welcome me. Thank you so much for coming on. Rebecca. This is a real pleasure to meet you and to speak to you today. Thank you. Well, thank you for having me. I think I followed your podcast for a while now. So I felt very like privileged Whitney, like sent me a message saying if I'd like to come on, and I was like, Yes, please. It's lovely to hear. Thank you. So you're in Sydney. Yeah. What's it like up there today? Is it is it? It's disgustingly hot. But I mean, I can't complain. It's been terrible weather all year up until about a week ago started to feel like summer finally. So I guess, you know, you get what you wish for and like we've been the same. It's just we've had no sort of just nice average weather. It's been raining extremely cold. Yep. Or then we get 39. So it's like I said, I can't wait till it gets hot and then we can start whinging about how to exactly, exactly. I need something new to whinge about you know? Yeah, so your mom and Your Podcast, you've been very active on your social media, sharing your your story and your journey with your perinatal stories Australia, can you can you tell us all about that and what inspired you to start that whole experience for people? I mean, you know, perinatal stories Australia, it's it's a platform really to share stories about perinatal mental health, you know, what we go through? I mean, yes, there's contentious arguments in the community about whether perinatal anxiety or depression are actually different from non perinatal anxiety, depression, I feel like it is. And I felt like we needed a space to talk about that to share stories about that, because going through mental illness itself is hard enough, going through it as a mom during pregnancy and or postpartum is just on another level. And that all came about, you know, I've had a history with anxiety, I've had a history with depression. And I, you know, naively thought that, you know, if this does happen to me postcard, and then you know, I've gone through it before I'll get through it again, it'll be right. But you know, as we learn, it doesn't discriminate. You can be a psychologist or social worker, you could be a doctor, you could have all this experience and personal history or knowledge of mental health or mental ill health, and it can still hit us like a ton of bricks. And that's what happened to me, I, I guess I was in denial about how anxious I was during my pregnancy. And, you know, I was so focused on postpartum and wanting to control my postpartum in order to protect myself from depression, or anxiety, or psychosis, which I'd learned about during pregnancy, and it scared the absolute shit out of me. But yeah, I was in denial about the fact that my anxiety was really there in pregnancy, and it was getting worse and worse and worse, at the start, I kind of kind of brushed it off, because, you know, I could still go to work, I was still functioning. So therefore, it was okay. You know, we tell ourselves those things, and you know, it's fine. And it'll be fine. When he you know, my baby's here, it's just hormones, you know, we go through that we dismiss ourselves. And my anxiety just got worse and worse, to the point that I wasn't leaving the house. And I know, that's such a stereotype. But I was having panic attacks every day. And I, I developed this fear of birth, which became pathological and even I was just missing myself, like, all everyone's scared of birth, and I'd taken all the classes, you know, all the calmbirth classes and wanting to be prepared, and I was originally feeling confident about birth. And then I wasn't, then I was just convinced I was going to die. And so that anxiety just took hold, I couldn't move, I couldn't go to work without bursting into tears couldn't leave the house couldn't make decisions. And it just the closer and closer it got to birth, the more and more it felt like I'm getting closer and closer to death. So that just became obviously a very horrible, horrible experience. But again, I just kept thinking, oh, when he's here, when the bus over, it will be fine. Obviously doesn't happen. You know, we I mean, mental illness in pregnancy is so under diagnosed, and so brushed off because we're so focused on postpartum. Yeah, and, you know, unfortunately, if you don't treat it in pregnancy, it actually gets us into a spot of like, you know, though, shocked to me, but I'm sure a shock to a lot of people I've spoken to a lot of mothers who said the same thing, you know, it popped up in pregnancy, but all hormones, it'll get better. And it doesn't because you're then thrown into this whole new situation with a whole new human who you have to, you know, you have to look after them so that they can survive and Yeah, unfortunately for me, I will, unfortunately but I I ended up booking a planned cesarean because I just the thought of going through labor and not panicking. I just couldn't see myself doing that. And you know, I guess the C section wasn't exactly a walk in the park I wasn't looking forward to that either. But there was a bit more certainty and a bit more control and the thought of going through labor and ending up in an emergency sixth section anyway because I wasn't able to control my anxiety. I made that decision and you know, it may have been me and you know, your coping skills you think okay, if that's something that you're scared, okay, just kind of tune it out a little bit. And so I was in the surgery and I I was in the room, my mind wasn't in the room. And you know, that led to something that I wasn't expecting, which was actually birth trauma. I did get diagnosed with postpartum PTSD and from that, I think that dissociation So yeah, that took me by surprise because in theory On paper, I had a very textbook birth, I lost minimal blood, everything was okay. Everyone was so lovely to my obstetrician, the midwives, I was even allowed my social worker in that room because everyone in that room knew how anxious I was. And they were doing everything to make sure I was comfortable and safe and okay. But I was still scared. And that anxiety in late pregnancy just obviously manifested and became crisis point within a few days of my son's birth. So I couldn't sleep. Anytime I tried to close my eyes, I would, I would have nightmares. And it would just jolt me, you know. So for days, I was having like red flashing firework scary images in front of my eyes, and I was petrified. So I was already anxious in pregnancy, this then just scared the shit. Obviously, you know, and then you've got a baby to look after. And I developed well, I learned that I had OCD my whole life, but it was very mild. It then obviously became a bit more acute. At this point in time, everything just kind of bubbled up. It was, you know, the anxiety were full crisis mode, there was the PTSD, there was rapid onset of OCD, there was a lot going on. And within a few days of my son's birth, we were admitted to a mother and baby psychiatric hospital because I was so distressed and I wasn't sleeping. And yeah, that's obviously not the story, I thought I'd tell about my own motherhood, that's not the story. You know, here I am thinking, Oh, I've had experience with mental ill health. You know, I can see my psychologist, you know, I've got skills, all of that went out the window. And I was absolutely at rock bottom. And, you know, this is someone me who is comfortable talking about my mental health who's had that experience. I can only imagine going through that. And you haven't seen a psychologist before. You haven't. I didn't even know that there was such a choice was and I especially didn't know that there were any for mothers and babies. This was all intimidating as well. So I mean, that turned out to be the best thing I've ever done in my life. Obviously, at the time, I didn't think that I was, I was terrified. Because this just felt like another thing I'd failed, or, you know, I was crazy. I was broken, I had no reason to be there. You know, there are women who are single parents, or they've gone through a very traumatic birth, or they've, you know, they're victims of domestic violence, or for whatever reason, I thought, You know what, I'm coming from a place of privilege. I shouldn't be feeling this, I must be broken. I must be crazy. You know, you, you kind of say things to yourself, like, Well, someone else has a better reason for this. It's clearly I'm just broken. No, and yeah, yeah, we look for those reasons. And when we can't find it, we then blame ourselves even more. Which is ridiculous, isn't it? Because there's we have absolutely no control, no control whatsoever on how on all of this stuff. Yeah. And yeah, sure, you know, maybe if my anxiety had been managed, better in pregnancy, and you know, the hormones, you know, maybe there was something more we could do. But at the end of the day, it doesn't discriminate. It's in my psychopathy, or my psychology, or, you know, it just it was going to happen. And I think a lot of people had to validate that for me is that, you know, with your history, something like this was going to happen, maybe not 16, and it obviously just snowballed out of control. But, you know, and how lucky am I that I was able to go to that Mother Baby Unit, I say this a lot, but I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that, you know, my son and I were allowed to be admitted together. That's the whole point. You know, the mother gets treated, while still prioritizing that mother baby diet, making sure you know, mom and Baba together and i My heart breaks for women who have to go to, you know, the emergency department and they're separated from their Bob for days or weeks. And you know, they're in a place where they can't have visitors. And I mean, this was in the middle of COVID lockdown in Sydney as well. So I was lucky my husband was able to stay as well because you know, they prioritize that family unit. We were locked in this little hospital. But again, being a mum in a general, you know, a public hospital or whatever with an emergency department in that psych unit not being allowed visitors your phone's taken off, you kind of thing I just My heart breaks and like I said, I am so lucky, so fortunate that I was able to attend the only one in New South Wales at that time. Know, I guess that's to answer your question. That's where perinatal stories Australia came out because like I said, this wasn't the story of motherhood. I was excited acting. And despite my knowledge and my experience, this all took me by surprise. And there was so much that I learned about mental health, specifically maternal mental health. And I just thought we don't talk about this. You know, it wasn't until I started talking to, you know, family extended friends, that people were like, Yeah, my sister's been there, or you're my auntie went to that hospital. People knew about it, but we don't talk. And what a disservice we're doing to mothers, by not talking openly about this by maybe, you know, they will then feel ashamed. Like, I'm clearly broken, I had to go to a psychiatric hospital, I'll never talk about this in my life. And I thought, I don't, I don't want that I don't want this to just be a bad memory, I want to do something with it. I want to tell these stories, my own and other women's so that there are mums out there potentially going through this who don't think they're broken, they don't think they're alone, and that they can potentially learn about some of the options available. You know, when you're in that moment, or that moment that, you know, crisis point, you feel like there is no help hope there is no help. There is nothing that will save you. And to know that, you know, it's not just necessarily going to a counselor, it could be antidepressants, it could be a psychiatric hospital, it could be seeing a social worker, it could be there's an occupational therapist, there are so many different pathways to receiving help are a combination of all of these, you know, whether you go down the line of potentially doing therapy like the eye movement, desensitization reprocessing, so EMDR whether you do that, or whether you go down the line of TMS, so the transcranial magnetic? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't, I don't know the acronym at the top of my head. But there's so many options, and they sound scary. But then when you actually talk to women and hear their experience of it, it becomes less and less foreign. And you start to feel a little bit more of that hope. So that was my goal. That was my goal with the podcast. And it took me it's taken me a year now to actually release the episodes. I only released my first episode six weeks ago, but I've been thinking about it and working on the social media stuff, and just trying to, I guess, build that community, but also feel a little bit more confident, because I have no idea I'm doing, let's be honest, I'm not a podcast, I still don't see myself as that. I don't see myself as a creative. So that in itself is something I'm still trying to negotiate with myself. So yeah, me being me, I want to be great at what I do. So I didn't want to release an episode. Like, you know, I had to build it up and had to learn and I had to teach myself because I didn't want to get too excited. I wanted to make sure I did it. Right. Yeah, I worked on the social media stuff just as a little as a starting point. So that was a space. And it still is, you know, for advocacy for raising awareness for education for sharing some parts of my story, some of those personal bits and pieces. And now obviously, that the podcasts been released, I'm sharing the stories of those moms who've gone through that, which is phenomenal. And I'm so grateful that they've been open and honest about those experiences, because the amount of women who have messaged saying, you know, I didn't know that this was an option I or I've gone and booked in to see my doctor, I'm actually going to ask for help now. Yeah, sorry. I just get shivers that it's yes, I can totally resonate with that. I think that's just the way I sort of see it is like not everybody is capable of sharing. And that's fine. So it's, it's totally okay. The people that are I sort of feel like it's it's your I don't know what the word is. You're not obliged to do it. But if you know how to do it, do it because it just helps so many people and you have no idea like you said until people talk about it you don't know who in your life you already know or I've met that has had experiences similar or can learn from your experiences like you were saying about people go oh Jeepers, that's raise something in May. I'm going to do something about it. It's so powerful and I just think like Good on you because it's it is vulnerable to share. What is the definition of the perinatal time period so perinatal is pregnancy to a year postpartum technically that is the medical definition, I'm of the opinion and with some other people I've met on Instagram, but you know, it could also be preconception, you know, if you're going through infertility or loss, that doesn't discount, it's not that you shouldn't be included because you don't technically meet that pregnancy and postpartum one definition, I still include it. But I mean, on a technicality, it is that time period between pregnancy and one year postpartum. And that's when you are most vulnerable to a mental illness as a woman, you are never more vulnerable than in that time period in your life yes. When you talked about having been able to go to the hospital to admit yourself and your baby, I didn't know those plates existed either. When I went through my experience with my second child, I was offered to be admitted to hospital, but it would have meant that it was only for me and not baby. So I chose not to. Because I felt that it was more important for me to be with my child, because I actually had this feeling that he was going to help me heal. I just had this really, I don't know what it was a feeling that I had to keep him close to me. And I think that's what deep helped me get through it. Whereas with my first child, I was always pushing him away and pushing him away. And that's the thing too, I think, even though we do have these, these mental health issues, it can be so different with the each child that you have. Exactly. Which is was my experience. Yeah, it's it's a weird, weird thing, the brain and the way our bodies work. So when I want to go back to when you were pregnant? Yeah. And you talked about having your you said it was your social worker, I think, yeah. So you had support during your pregnancy. And so me being me and wanting to be in control and prepare for postpartum, I did go through a very informal postpartum planning, it was my way of being in control. And really, it was just a symptom of my anxiety. But it worked out well in the sense that I had, I had reached out to Gidget foundation, so digit house, they have their free talk therapy, during pregnancy and postpartum. So I reached out and I got on the waitlist for that. And I was able to speak to a psychologist throughout my pregnancy and postpartum one who was obviously well versed in maternal mental health. And through my obstetrician, she was phenomenal. I know so many people have not so great experiences I had, I had a wonderful one who was constantly checking in on my mental health and, okay, so at the hospital, I gave birth, she referred me to the social worker. So it's an obstetric social worker who's part of the hospital, my OB referred me through there, just just to make sure that I had like a safety net, just in case. And so I went to speak to that social worker just once give her a rundown of my history. It wasn't until we got closer to birth, that I was scared of the birth that my OB coordinated with her to be present at the time of the birth. And then obviously, she became such a key part in my postpartum my early postpartum while I was in hospital having that acute episode, she was the one who got me into the mother and baby unit, which I didn't even know existed. So I'm, I had that safety net in a way, which, you know, again, I cannot imagine where I would be. I know where I'd be. I don't want to imagine it. If it weren't for her, or even my OB to actually put me in contact with her, someone who knows maternal mental health and knows the services and support systems that are available to catch you when you fall. So, yeah, it's when I was saying before, I'm from Gambia, we're a small town. They say we're, we're the second largest city, and I say city in inverted commas. Because we're not a city. We're we're a large country. 10 second largest outside of Adelaide, like in Australia, which is quite scary. I mean, it is. Yeah. Got it. You can't compare the City of South Australia today via the capital city. Which is kind of nice to do. But yeah, I had no idea what's Ever since we had or didn't have, I just presumed we really didn't have anything down here. And it wasn't until that I needed them that all of a sudden you discover all this stuff. And I sort of I didn't have when, when my first child, I was sort of diagnosed after the fact, a few years later of having personnel depression, because I basically slipped through the cracks, because I wasn't giving them the answers that they needed for the takeoff checklist. Basically, I didn't fit the criteria. And unfortunately, there was wasn't the, you know, the services or the right people at the right time to ask questions, always really struggling. And it's not just because basically, I was trying to justify it. I was like, Oh, I'm just having a bad day. You know, I just haven't had a lot of sleep. I was in complete denial, and was my husband that said to me, I think you've got that thing that they talked about it. Any NATO class, I'm like, No, I don't I've just, you know, it's just a crap day. But it wasn't just a crap day. And it was really funny A Few Years Later. Not funny, but, you know, ironic using my gynecologist who was I kept saying, you know, between my babies, because I was having my Rainer, and then having that removed and all that and, and he said, Oh, yeah, sounds like you had some postnatal depression, or that's something that could have been solved with one, one tablet a day. And I just went off for God's sake. Just the other night, it was not that he was belittling, it was basically saying we could have fixed that we could have. Actually, nobody realized, you know? Yeah, and so then it was really good. When I had my second child. Like you were saying about having things in place, mine was a little different. Because I don't know, it was seven years between my children. And I had this idea that I was going to be fine. Yeah, it's like denial again. And when I was pregnant, because I don't know, my pregnancy hormones kept me right up here. I was cracking along, everything was great. I was journaling about all the things I do differently, and everything was gonna be different. And when I got into the hospital, they, they've sort of red flag to my file. You know, watch out for this one, sort of, which was the best thing they ever do. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. When it happened, things moved really quickly. And really, in the right, you know, everyone knew what had to be done. Because it did happen to have even made it to three days after I heard you, it just went back. And I, I also had a very traumatic birth and, and got diagnosed with PTSD from the birth. But the whole birth trauma thing was a new thing. Because it wasn't two years after that, I actually realized that that's what it was. And that was just through social media, following particular people and just went, Oh, I think that's what happened to me. And then I'd been vaccine was my counselor. Like for therapy and stuff, and I talked to her about it. And when I was really telling her my birth story, and she said, Oh, yeah, I don't want to diagnose you with something else. But yeah, you've got PTSD. And that's birth trauma and understood a lot. Like, oh, wow, just add it to the list. Just another thing to add Yeah. It's the weirdest thing. You just, some people just, you know, breeze through it, everything's great. Everything's fine. And you sort of think, like, I don't know, did you have an experience where you talked about not having the ideal birth? And do you ever feel like you've missed out? Did you ever feel completely, like almost jealous of other people that have got to have certain things, I went through a grieving process. And that grieving process actually lasted longer than that acute episode, I was in hospital. So I was in hospital until my son was six weeks old. That's when we were discharged the day after he turned six weeks old. And obviously, things weren't great, but I wasn't in that acute crisis state. I was back to maybe mild, moderate. And then, you know, once you're out of that distressed state, you can then work on therapy and all the skills that you had, that then starts to kick in. But then the grief hit until maybe my son was about six months old. And you know, I would my one of my friends had her baby boy. So I have a son. So she had a baby boy about three months after I did. And, you know, she had the vaginal birth she had the breastfeeding journey that I didn't. And yes, that's not to dismiss how hard motherhood is, but she had that newborn bubble. And I, I cried it. To put it bluntly, it felt like my heart broke into a million and pieces, because I just thought how much mental illness took away. You know, not just what I wanted, but it took away that newborn bubble, that breastfeeding experience, you know, the bonding that we're told, breastfeeding provides us it took away moments that I would never ever get back those first six weeks of my son's life, I would never get those back. And it took up until he was six months old for me to reconcile with that, and to Yeah, come to a place where I, you know, no matter how much I wanted to, I couldn't change what had happened. So in that up until he was six months old, that grieving process, I then reached stuck. I then wanted to reestablish breastfeeding and try re lactating. So I tried so hard at that I, you know, had the approval of, you know, the community nurse, and my psychologists, psychiatrists, because they said, Okay, you're in a different headspace, but I was still grieving. And in my head, reestablishing breastfeeding was my way of wanting to get back the time that I had lost, because if I just clung to breastfeeding as the answer to my problems, and it didn't work, which I knew it wouldn't work, probably for a few. I was, you know, you have to pump like seven times a day, 10 minutes each. So you know, it is just not happening when you've got a an infant and you're speeding, you know, playing, changing body, all of this, you know, and you need to eat yourself. And so it just wasn't happening, but I clung to it. And it wasn't until six months postpartum, that I just realized that even if it did work, even if I was able to reestablish breastfeeding, there was nothing that would change what had happened, there was nothing I could do to get that time back, even if it magically worked. And I was breastfeeding and we could enjoy this current time in this sense through breastfeeding. Those six weeks weren't coming back. And I needed to make peace with that and that grief was that like I said, it lasted a lot longer than even the acute episode and it was consuming it did a grief made me you know, suffer more than I already was. But yeah, there was that jealousy and there was that just I mean, I call it grief because it just I wanted so badly what they had not that I wanted to take it away from them, but I just wish I got Yeah. And no, I mean it's still even with me. One of my other friends had her beautiful baby girl about six weeks ago and you know, I didn't cry for a solid two months straight this time. I cried for a couple of hours but that just yeah, it it still hits you and you still think what did I miss out? You know, the last bit of my pregnancy that you know, you convince yourself you're not capable or you can't function and your anxiety is just in control. And you know, you just wish you was strong enough I guess I'm gonna use that in quotes to overcome your anxiety and be brave you know all that positivity. So you know, you wish you could just think it think your way out of it and have some positive affirmation. And it doesn't but you still hold on to that you know, you still think God I wish I could have just I wish I wasn't controlled by my anxiety or I wish I wasn't controlled by my mental health and because of that I missed out on some of the experience I wanted and it's not my fault it is an illness. But it still hurts it hurts like hell. And yeah, like I said I didn't like with my friend who had her boy at three months when I was three months postpartum I cried every single day for hours and hours and hours a day for maybe two three months. This time it was only a few hours but you know it that grief is mental illness takes away a lot from us you know and especially as a mom you miss out on on so much and your kids grow so quickly and in that six weeks I wasn't getting that time back you know and that's still something that eats away and sits with you and I don't know if I deliver not eat away at me but yeah, you know and that's okay. That's okay. I'm allowed to grieve that you know it's getting easier but yeah absolutely. You said how mental illness take so much away is that what's makes you really passionate about sharing your story. It's like you can, you can take this thing that's been so destroying and turn it into something. I don't want to say positive because it sounds cliche, but you know me like to sort of say, okay, so this has happened, this has been really shit really, really bad. But the silver lining is that maybe I can help someone else. Maybe I can, you know, has that been a factor in think so. But I think this was also my way of processing the grief and owning my story. You know, this was a strict like I said, I this is not the story, I want to be telling you about motherhood, I wish I had a very different story to be sharing. I wish I had the stories that my friends were sharing about their births and their newborn bubbles. And, yeah, I wish I had that. But this is my way of owning it. This is my way of acknowledging that I can't change those six weeks. And that's in it's hard. But I'm owning it. And by doing this by sharing my story, it's actually my way of processing my own bullshit. Processing my own grief and actually acknowledging, well this did happen. And I can, you know, try to sweep it under the rug, and, you know, pretend it didn't happen and just have it eat up my worth for the rest of my life, or I can own it. I can own that this was my experience, acknowledge that it wasn't what I wanted. And I can potentially do something with it that hopefully make someone else feel less alone so that they don't have to sit there in silence. Yes, they don't have to share their story with the world. But they can sit there and know that they aren't alone. And that this is shit, but that it does get better. Like I promise it gets better. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I think that's what kept me going with my second child is because I had that perspective of having one already and going. I know they grow. I know, it changes. I know, this isn't forever. That was a pretty important thing for me being stuck in that. Because the first time it was just like, oh my god, is this ever going to end? This is? Assuming Yeah, yeah. So hearing that is pretty important, I think to know that it's not always going to feel and you're not always going to have these emotions. You're not always. And it's okay. Like, even if you don't have mental ill health, it is okay to acknowledge that motherhood and especially that newborn stage can be shaped Yes, it can be awesome. It can also be really, really hot. And I think it's so important that we talk about that because there are mothers out there who feel alone, like yes, they might not have a mental illness, but they still feel like they're suffering on their own. We don't want anyone to feel like that. And that whole sort of pressure that society has on us that it's like we've touched on, it's got to be a certain way, mothers should be able to do it. And if you ever complain about how hard it is, oh, well, you wanted to have children, you know, this way that society just shuts lately completely, like, oh, but you wanted to have a job? Why are you complaining about your job? Like, it's the same bullshit, but we don't say that to someone who got a nine to five and is complaining in nine to five, you know, we, it is ridiculous, but I mean, that experience Yes, it you know, was a way to process my own stuff, but it also motherhood and the experience I went through helped me I guess, figure out my own values or the values will already there, but it was the way I it was kind of pushing me that I had to start to actually live by my values, which obviously influenced the work that I'm doing. Yes, I am doing podcasting now, but I've always been a writer. Yeah, I've always been into creative writing and storytelling, and, you know, I always wanted to write a book, but on no way that doesn't pay the bills. I need a nine to five. So you know, it's this third podcasting. It's actually my way of sharing stories like that journalism, that storytelling that interviewee you know, that's coming back to those values. And yes, you know, we don't want to sit here and say, Oh, you've gone through should experience Um, here's the silver lining, but my silver lining is that, you know, going through what I went through, I realize just how important it is to. Yeah, not to shut ourselves down and to just go through. Yeah, to prioritize what we feel is important. And yes, it doesn't bring in the bills. But it's still important that that doesn't make it any less important. Hmm, but mental health advocacy is something I've always wanted to do long before I became a mom. Yeah, storytelling was something I always wanted to do. So this platform has allowed me to do both. And that that's why I don't feel like I'm working like I mean, I can't even call it a job. Like I said, I don't get paid. But it feels it's work. But it doesn't feel like work to me. I wake up in the morning, and I want to do it, and go to sleep at night thinking about it again. And it feels important, and so I wouldn't. Yeah, the experience of what I went through, made me realize just yeah, that that direct show that purpose, that meaningfulness I guess, came through all of the shitty stuff. Yeah. Tell me about your writing. So, like I said, I only started to kind of see myself as a creative person recently. I've always been a creative child, though, like the witch. Yeah, I, I guess I forgot about that. You know, I was always doing drawing or cross writing. I'm always trying to make something. I mean, it would could be terrible, but I was doing it anyway. Yeah, you know. But then, you know, as you get older, and me being who I am, you need that praise that validation. And so you lose touch with that creativity, because it doesn't get you got a pluses or the ticks or the, you know, you don't get a job out of it, really. And so that led me down the path of, you know, wanting to pursue things that did get me that praise that did get me that a plus and that validation. So you think that you're not good at creativity, because you're not getting that. That to me, being me, I'm a perfectionist as well. But in my spare time I wrote, I wrote a lot. So outside of school or doing homework, that was my outlet to understand the world or whatever I was going through. But again, I never got that success. I can remember, like, as one of our school English teachers, she was an actual author. And she'd set up a book club at school. And I was so excited because I thought I just want to be part of this. And I'd written a novel when I was like, 13, or something. And so I submitted it to her. And she said, Rick, I'm not going to read it, because that wouldn't be fair. And I'm glad she did it. In hindsight, because it was absolute trash. I, you know, it kind of broke my heart a little because I saw I wanted her to read it. And I'd be famous author. And anyway, so she said, Why don't you submit a smaller piece of work? And you know, if it's good, we'll go into the book club, because I think you'll be great in the book club. So I submitted this piece of work to her and I didn't get into the book. So you know, it just, I guess all of that either. Just reinforces that I wasn't very good. You know, you don't get that praise, you don't get the you think you're not good at it. So you don't want to pursue it. Right. Like it's very discouraging. So yeah, I spent those teenage years telling myself I was so creative, I wasn't good at that. So I needed to be I needed to do things I was good at. I was good at I was actually very good at writing essays, probably the story writing helped with that. But, you know, I was excellent at writing essays, I'll toot my own horn there. Even at uni, I would get the high distinctions and things. So I pursued those lines of study and work because that's what got me the, the tick of approval, like, then that you know, if other people are telling me I'm good at it, then that's what I have to pursue. So I would always come back to writing though, you know, after school, I'd take little short courses or creative writing courses, certificates, or whatever. And I did so many of them because I just loved telling stories. And I thought the more courses I do, the better I'll get at it. You know, you want to be the best at it. You don't want to do it. Unless you're good at it. Yeah, yeah. It's that whole, I guess that's a societal thing. But yeah, that need for a job would just come and swallow up any creativity. So I shifted the focus from maybe writing to becoming a book editor, because that in my mind would be the closest I'd get to being in that field. And, you know, potentially could hypothetically do some writing around the nine to five kind of thing I even did. My university degree was in English Literature writing, linguistics, journalism edit, you know, I did all of that. And I loved it. Don't get me wrong, but of course, it was the essays and the, you know, the linguistics that got me. You know, the top of the class and the high distinctions but not the creative stuff. This is horrible. story. I did a writing work At university, it was the one creative writing unit I did. And I never did another one, we had to write a short story, bring it to class, and the class would workshop, the story with you, you know, provide feedback, potentially structure or character development. Anyway, I wrote a story about my own experience with mental illness. So in my early 20s, right. And it was received very simply. So, you know, I got told by one person that I was perpetuating the stereotypes of depression, because the character I had in the story was sobbing all day, and couldn't get up and work and go to, you know, what, couldn't get up and go to work. But at the time, that's what I was experiencing. In my early 20s, there was a point where my husband who was, who was my boyfriend at the time, he would have to help me leave the bed carrying me while I was sobbing to the shower, because I couldn't physically get up and go to work, you know, he would be there, he would help me wash my hair, he would dry my hair with the hairdryer because I just, I couldn't function, you know, and that was my experience. And so I thought I'd write about that. And that would be my, that was me processing my experience. And yeah, I I know, it's a cliche. And I know, that's not depression for everyone. Believe me, I've had the opposite end of depression, where you're just so numb, that there's no tears believe that I've had. But that was my experience. And I wanted to write about that short period of my life. And you know, I had the lecturer and tutor tell me, well, I shouldn't write about things I don't know about clearly, I didn't know what I was writing about. Obviously, this is just reinforcing that I shouldn't be a writer, I shouldn't be, you know, creative, I shouldn't be doing anything that I'm not good at, quote, unquote. I shouldn't write about things I clearly don't know anything. It was, it was my own personal. I mean, obviously, it wasn't very good. Clearly, everyone was telling me it wasn't very good, which is fine. But you know, as to maybe they weren't very good. Meeting me, I just, you know, unless I was getting that recognition that what I was doing was good and worthwhile and helping someone else or whatever, I didn't want to do it. So that then, you know, reinforced that I shouldn't be doing writing or anything creative. So that really pushed me into the editing and publishing. And I didn't do any more creative writing units, because I just thought, I'm not good at it. I'm, yeah, this isn't for me, I thought I want to do it. But if I'm not getting that feedback, then not this isn't for me, I'm not good at it, I'll do something I'm good at, which is the things that get you the a plus and the tickets. And you know, and I did don't get me wrong, I love editing, and publishing, I did a few courses around that as well. I have this fascination with the English language or with language in general. So I ended up getting a job at my university. I'm on Matt Lee from an hour, but I was an English language specialist. And I would edit documents and write glossary definitions. And I'd work in the data team and analyze data from that language point of view, rather than number seven. It was meaningful and fulfilling. And that was as close to creativity as I was gonna get. But it was still a real job in quote, marks, and I was enjoying it, potentially, because I was being praised for it, because I was good at it. And then obviously, becoming a mom, you know, your whole world and identity and opinion of yourself and values change. And, you know, I'm sitting here and it's like, yes, I would love that nine to five, but I want to do something that makes me excited to wake up in the morning that I'm doing something meaningful that I'm living to my values. So and again, I still don't see myself as a podcaster. Deep down my little my, my inner self still says sees myself Oh wants to see myself as a writer. Because that's how I've always wanted to see myself. Yeah. So you know, telling stories is a big part of what I do on Instagram, not just others, but my own and just little snippets here and there. And that that provides me the most. It's cathartic in a way for me, but yeah, that provides me the most meaningful and purposeful, you know, activity anyway, that's like I said, it's the I still don't see myself as a podcaster because I'm still figuring out but yeah, I guess now I I'm learning that I don't have to be great at something to enjoy doing it. And that's taking what don't get me wrong. I'm not 100% there yet, they'll still be a part of me that wants to be the best at everything and wants to know what I'm doing before actually do it. I don't want to learn by doing it because I don't want to be you know, it's that mentality that takes a while to get out of to break out. Oh, so like I said, I spent the last year just trying to figure out how to actually podcast and I would do so much and I do so much on the back end. So that actually now that I'm starting to podcast, it's coming easy, because I invested so much time into the back end But there was no way I was going to do it. At the start, at this time last year was actually when I set up my ABN and stuff. And anyway, but yeah, it. Yeah, it sounds ridiculous. But that's no. That's the thing that you're conscious of things that you want to improve or change. You know, that's, you know, a step ahead of most people, I think a lot of people go through life just oblivious to their behaviors or the way their behaviors affect others or things that they could, you know, change in their lives that would make life better for them. So, you know, good on Yeah, I know where I need to improve. Am I getting there slowly? Well, I get there, 100%, maybe not, I'm still, you know, those perfectionist tendencies that, you know that you hold on to that criticism, slowly unlearning that, but you know, and that's okay. I don't have to be perfect at not being. Yeah, a lot of what you're saying I can really resonate with. I mean, I think I'm a little bit older than you, I'm in my 40s. And I've got to a place now where I just don't give a shit of what people think anymore. And that is so different to the person I was growing up. I was so with what people thought that feedback was so important to me. You know, I, like you've said about situations where people have given you feedback that, you know, it wasn't what you wanted to hear, and it stopped you from doing things I've done that. And at this point in my life, I just think if I want to do something, I'll do it. And I don't care. So yeah, it's possible. It's possible and it's so freeing when you start caring what other people think it's a wonderful feeling it like you're just living your life the way you want to live it and, like, God, I would be, I'd be walking down the street as a teenager. And I would, I would tell myself, the stories in my head that are that person that just drove past in that car, they were judging my genes that they weren't the right. Like I would create all these things in my head. And then yeah, as you grew up, we just go, no, that didn't happen because people don't give a shit. Everyone's worried about themselves. Everyone's even if they were judging my genes. That's their problem. Yeah, exactly. Good. Yeah. No, it is. It's an amazing feeling. And you just think, My God, why couldn't I be like this when I was young? How much suffering did we have to go? To learn what we've learned? Now? You know that? Yeah. But the good side is that, you know, it's gonna be, you know, God willing, I live that long, but it's gonna be good next half of my life. Totally. And what a good example to set for your kids. Really? Oh, yes. Yeah, teaching them that it's okay to not actually care that other people will let you have to bend yourself over backwards to accommodate other people's. Whatever. Yeah, I think that that's a huge thing that we're unlearning and that we get to teach our children. Hmm. Yeah, I'm, I'm excited, I guess, for the future to see and hope that our kids don't carry that bullshit with them until they're in their 30s or 40s. Or whatever, that they can maybe live a little without that fear of judgment, or fear of upsetting someone else. Dramatic, you know, just by being themselves. Yeah, exactly. And making no apologies for how, how they want to dress and what music they want to listen to me. Ah, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. I talk to all my moms about this, this topic of mom guilt. And I find it really interesting. It's something that I'm, I don't know why I'm so interested in it. Because I hate it so much. And I wish you're allowed to be you just but yeah, what's your take on it? I mean, I do believe mom guilt is real. I haven't quite decided if it's based on you know, the way we compare ourselves or our unrealistic expectations that we have of motherhood, although unrealistic expectations society gives us about another. I don't know if it's that or if there is some intrinsic component to mom guilt, but it's definitely real and it does. rear its ugly head, I guess, in so many contexts. You know, there's so many shorts, you should be doing this, you should be doing that. And I, I'm guilty of it. I'm guilty of Mongo, I still feel like I should be doing more or spending more time with my son and you know, potentially if I wasn't working a little bit on the podcast, and maybe I could cook a better meal for him more, you know, whatever it is, but I'm also Learning. And again, this is a slow process, I'm learning to be self compassionate Sure, I could push myself beyond my, you know, human limits him to be better. But what would that wouldn't actually make the guilt go away or just make it appear in another way or in another form? Yeah, the context, there's no winning, you know, there's always going to be something better. There's always something going to be more you could be doing and then there's more sacrifices you make on yourself, and what's the cost? So I'm trying to learn to just, it's there, and it sucks. But I'm trying to keep it as background noise and trying not to let it control me because I don't think it would benefit myself or my son, or myself to be a mother who sacrifices 100% of my own wants and needs to be better, right? I don't think it's benefiting either of us. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So in one go, it's there and it sucks. But yeah, it's just learning to, I don't know, I don't like I said, I don't know where it comes from, or if it can ever go away, but I'm learning that if it's there, it can stay there, but I'm just gonna not try to feed into it or let it control my motherhood or my human experience, really, ya know, that it's so true. It's like when you say, you know, if you did do something, then something else would suffer. And then you feel guilty about that. And then if you do, then you feel guilty about that. It's like, it's just this constant juggling thing, you know, especially in motherhood, we talk about this work life balance, and I don't know if it actually exists, I think we're all just struggling to find that balance, or that ideal balance and really just doesn't exist, because you could be at work, you're feeling guilty, you're not at home, you're at home, you're feeling guilty, you're not working and there is or I could be exercise, or I should be doing this, I should be doing that. And there is no winning, there is no balance, because to have that balance, you've made that piece. And you know that you're doing 100% Yeah, do that. Is it possible? Yeah, it's impossible. So I'm, yeah, it's there. And it sucks. And I'm learning just to let it sit there and to just sit in that discomfort that it will exist, and I'm doing my best. And it will tell me, I could be doing more or I could be doing better, or that there is a different definition of best. Just trying to Yeah, let it just be let it lets myself sit with it and just do what I'm doing anyway. Yeah. Now, that's really good advice. I think that thing of being kind to ourselves, and not making ourselves feel guilty for feeling guilty, you know, just, you know, had an eye as long as you you'd like someone to put a post up the other day. And I just thought this is the epitome of life, you know, if you can take your child into bed, who's fed and loved. And, you know, I just think that we've made it you know, if your child wakes up in the morning with a smile on his face, and I don't know, I agree, because like you said, there are so many shoulds. And so social media just feeds into that or you should be bottle feeding or co sleeping or not put you shouldn't use a dummy you shouldn't use you shouldn't that and you get so caught up in doing it right and feeling like you're doing it wrong. But as you said, if your kids alive, if they're happy, you've got a roof over your head, you're doing everything bloody right? There is no wrong in that situation. And I wish we could say that more, we get so caught up on what we should or shouldn't be doing. And everyone's got a different opinion. And really, as you said, or as that quote said, I think I saw it yesterday on your stories, but you kids fed, they're happy there's a roof over your head, they're in a warm bed. You're the best mother for them, you're doing everything right, drown out everything else, because it's not doing any favors. Really. Hmm. Absolutely. And you also touched on that, that sort of context that that idea of martyrdom about giving up everything of yourself, that it's just like you just think I'd be crazy than what I am. To do. Every single moment of my time to my children. I just think, I don't know, a lot of people I talk to through the podcast, you know, creative women who weren't doing something before they had a child. And just because they happen to have a child doesn't mean that that creativity and that need to create and the outlet and the release and the regulation that they get from creating just dissipates you know, it's it's it's such a i don't i It's a ridiculous notion. For some women. Being a mother 100% of the time actually is fulfilling and meaningful to them and hats off to them. For other women. That's not the case. And we need to make space for both. There's no right or wrong, that you know, if you are 100% fulfilled in motherhood and you know, meeting the needs of your children, then go for it. No one is stopping you for other months. I know for me, I'm I don't know, if it's an only child thing, I'm an only child, I need my space. I don't care if it's to do nothing, I need my space from other people. And that includes my son, I love the kid, I love being able to see him smile and try new foods or play with him. Love him. I need my space. Yeah, one of your questions on the page was in terms of identity. And yes, I mean, I don't know if it's necessarily important for me to see myself as being more than just a mother. There's nothing wrong with being just a mother. But I always wanted to be a mother. But I think it's important for me to be someone who lives according to her values. And someone who acknowledges that I do have my own needs and my own wants, and that's okay. That's actually okay. I'd never really wanted to be a crew person. But I also didn't want to be a stay at home mom, I guess. And trying to find that balance between the two extremes was important, I guess. And I'm still trying to figure that out. I want to work but I also want to raise my son, but I also want to meet my own needs and live by my values and explore my own interests. And whether those changes, I just want to be able to do that. I don't know if I'll ever find that balance. But it's important to me that, you know, I meet my own needs. And it's important that my son can see that I am my own person. And, you know, if one day I want to be just a mother, or I'll devote 100% My time to them, I'll go with that, if that's intrinsically what I want to be doing. But I guess for me, it's important that I'm doing what intrinsically feels right. And just trying to balance being a mum, figuring out my own sheep, you know, healing and pursuing my own interests and giving myself the opportunity to do that without labeling it as good or bad. Without being able to judge myself or say, Well, I'm not good at it, I shouldn't do it, or it's not bringing in, you know, it's not paying the bills, therefore, I shouldn't even try, you know, it's just trying to fit it in, around all the other shit. You know, and I guess that probably goes to your other question about day to day. Creativity, like, how does that work? I mean, there is no structure to my day, it just whatever feels right. Like, if I feel like playing with my son, I'm gonna play with him. Or if I feel like doing podcast stuff, I'll work around his schedule. So for some background information here, my my husband's in the military. So up until two weeks ago, he was deployed for the whole year. So when my son, yeah, sorry, when my son was six months old, my husband got deployed out of Sydney. So he was still in Australia. But he was in intensive training, he was allowed to come home every blue moon for 24 hours. But then he had to go back. So yeah, I was solo parenting my son for a whole year up until two weeks ago. And I mean, I didn't go back to a, you know, my office job because with, I mean, I've been sick as well. I've had glandular fever for the last six months. So you know, everything that could happen could go wrong. This has but insane that I'm surprised myself with I guess, growing up, I always had that narrative in my head that I was not capable. I'm not capable of coping. I'm not an independent person. I need to rely on other people. I'm not an adult, you know, you tell yourself that stuff. And then you're thrown into the deep end and you're like, oh, shit, I can actually cope. Well, yes, we're not in Thrive mode. We're definitely in survival mode this year. But I did it. I actually did it. And I raised my son and not just that, I also got to work on something I was really, really passionate about. Yeah, in the background. Yeah. So in terms of day to day stuff with me and my son, it was just when he was having a nap, I would quickly try to do some podcasting stuff or when he'd go to bed at night. I'm I'm such a night owl. I get so much done. Night. But that was my me time I could, you know, sit down and figure out okay, what podcasting platform do I want to use or what's my calendar system that people can book through and I'll do my website. You know, I was just working on it piece by piece by piece and it's hard when you're in that moment because you think I'm not getting anywhere. But when you look back and it's like it she'd look at all this stuff that I've done, like, look, oh my god, it's actually I actually did all of that. And it was just little moments, little moments that I could just slowly build. And again, I wasn't getting feedback from that this was me doing something that felt right. And that was all the feedback or motivation that I needed is that it just felt purposeful. It felt meaningful. But yeah, I mean, that's not to say it was easy. My son, at eight months old, decided he didn't like sleeping in the car anymore. This was a kid who slept in a car. From the moment he was born, he was such a chill, calm, baby, all of a sudden, he wants to co sleep. So you know, there I am. Nine o'clock at night rocking him to sleep in my house, because he wouldn't sleep in the car, he wouldn't sleep alone, he had to be on me or near me. And then I was finally going to eat dinner once I was able to feel confident enough to you know, roll him off me. Then I could go be a human, have a shower, have dinner, and then I could go potty. And that's hard. It's hard solo parenting. And I'm so you know, lucky, my husband, I didn't have to go back to a nine to five job because you don't we could financially afford for me to be at home with our son, you know, working on my mental health, my physical health looking after my son who brought home every day care illness. He was there three days a week. And I swear this year, he was home more than he was actually at daycare because he'd been so sick. And then I'd catch whatever he caught. And it was just, we're definitely surviving. But just any moment that I could just do something for myself on top of, you know, having a shower or brushing my teeth and eating. Like, it was a hard game. It's a very hard. I've got so much respect for you seriously. Because what are my Lord days is my nightmare. Seriously, I just, I just I feel I always feel so incapable. When I when I had my first, like, real episode, I suppose. After my son was born, the thought in my head was, I can't do this. I can't do this. I don't know what to do. Which was ridiculous. Because I worked in childcare for years before I had him. So I knew how to look after children. You know, but it was just this irrational. I can't do this. And it took me a long, long time to even after I was, you know, medicated and things were honestly getting back to normal. Yeah, I was like, Ah, I can't know what I'm doing what's, you know, just this doubt, serious self doubt. And similar thing when my husband got COVID, earlier in the year, and so we're really trying to isolate him away from the rest of us. And my first thought was, oh, shit, I'm gonna say, How am I going to do it all myself, but then I actually did do it. And I was actually fine. And I think because, because I knew that there was no other option. It was like, I just had to do it. And so I actually didn't struggle that much. Because I was really accepting of the situation I was in and was like, okay, not saying, you know, it wasn't hard. And everything was wonderful. But I didn't let myself get to those extremes where I'd get to a complete meltdown. Because I knew that there was no saving me like, there was nothing. I mean, you know, and I think as well, we tell ourselves these stories that we can't do it. And yet when we're actually in a situation, yes, it's hard. But we've hate hearing I am like, what actually surviving and it's that build up? You know, I think a big part of my episode was, obviously I was in the hospital and all I could keep thinking was, how the fuck am I going to do this? When my husband's away next year? You know, this last? How the hell am I going to get through this? How am I going to cope? I can't even look after myself. How the hell am I going to look after the sun? I'm in this hospital. There's mothercraft nurses and pediatricians and psychologists around me all day was great. Am I gonna do this? Yeah, but I did. Yeah, I did. And we just figured it out. And it was hard. But we did it. But it's that build up and mental illnesses is mean, it is so mean to us. It tells us we can't do anything. It tells us we can't cope. It tells us we're incompetent. And that, you know, then you play into the other kids deserve better and Oh, but other people can cope. Why can't I? Yeah. And it's a bully. And really, the reality is we can actually do hard things and it sucks. Do not get me wrong. It sucks. But we can do it. And when you're in those moments, you just do it. There's no doubting yourself because you are actually doing it. Yeah, yeah, that was that was one of the words that I tell myself to help myself out of things when I'd get this. I can't do it. And I'd say no, but I am actually doing it right now. When I am doing it, you know, just to tell myself a different story and to trick my brain. Yes, we have to trick our brain because it's tricking us. Yes, yes. Yeah, it is. It's it is tricking us. And I know I, with my music I've, I've given my list posole depression, this persona of the wolf, I call it I've written I'm working on an album at the moment where the whole the whole album is about, it's called Wolf. And it's about the whole journey. And it's each song is a is a tiny little time frame of how I felt at different times. And it literally, that's how it felt it was consuming me it was this thing that wasn't me. Even though it was existing within me, and it was attacking me it was taking all the good things away, and it was making me scared and vulnerable. Sorry, I'm getting goose bumps. It's like, it's just this thing that inhabits you, you know, like people called the, the, you know, the black dog, you know, it's just, it's just this thing. And yeah, we can we can tell a different story. You know, it's, I mean, I don't That sounds so simplistic, but when you're in like you said before, when you're in the wind, it's really happening when you're in these episodes, you can't do anything, there is no, there is no rational thought there's no way of controlling but when you start to come out in the help of, you know, professionals and what have you, and then you can start to sort of rewire and, and what do they call that cognitive behavioral therapy, whatever it is, like telling yourself a different story, taking out the shirts, oh, we should do this, we should do. You know, that was one of the things someone said to me at one stage, take out the shirts, there's no shirt, it's you might do this or you might think about doing this or you know, just change the way around things simple things like that can make a massive difference. Going back to identity, not just motherhood, but mental illness, it feels like a part of you, it feels like who you are, it feels like your identity. So being able to separate yourself from those thoughts from that experiences is very hard to do. As you said, coming out of that you're able to look at it as something different, you're able to look at it as a wolf or whatever personification you give it. Because you're able to see that it's happening to you, but it's not you. And that's very, very powerful. And for me, that was where storytelling came in. The more I wrote about it, the more I tried to be poetic about my experience, or to just even just journal it I started to see it as not me, not my identity. And that's when your that's when you're healing. I know firsthand how easy it is to feel like this is who you are, and therefore it's you that's broken or it's it's never gonna get better because you're not getting better. You know, you you tell yourself these things that yeah, in terms of identity it Yeah, it's all consuming. Yeah. And that's the thing. There was no way when I was in the throes of the real depths. There was no way I was separating it out. I was there it was me you know, and it was the same gynecologist that I you know made the off the cuff comment Well, you could have just fixed it with one pill a day yes I pragmatic. He's he's an awesome bike and I have a great relationship with Him any he said he said you know, it's it's a chemical imbalance in your brain. That's what it is. It's a chemical imbalance in your brain. Yeah, and it was like right there you go. It's not me it's no it's I night and that really gave me the power to say I am not in control of this. I physically cannot. So I had this horrible experience between I had between having my two children where am I safe a friend I put the quotes because I don't see this person anymore or associated with it because of this next told me that that mental illness and depression don't exist because you should be able to keep yourself well by affirmations positive affirmations like that before. And I just You have no idea you have not experienced what I've experienced like and that was even before I had the big episode. The second child it's like Sure. I'm not dismissing the fact that you know if you're a generally well person, if you don't have massive chemical imbalances in your brain, sure keeping yourself you know, mentally well through positive thinking and eating well and exercising that that's great, but when you actually are so unwell severely unwell It's no amount of putting positive affirmations, it's good to save it. Like, it's not even on the radar night. And I think like you said, it's not to just dismiss the importance of that stuff eating well exercising, it is important. And it's very useful. Potentially, when you are in that mild category, you know, or if you had a bad experience, you know, and we're not even talking trauma, we're just talking something negative has happened in your life, going and doing those things. Even just a little talk therapy affirmation, they're so helpful, there's no doubting it. But there is a difference between, you know, feeling a little depressed, or a little anxious or depressed or a little anxious versus having the illness, there's a big difference. And again, it's not to invalidate those feelings, but the illness is something entirely different. And I'm, I'm with you, I see a lot of that on social media, I see a lot of all mental illness isn't real, or it's just a societal problem. And if we fix society would don't get me wrong. There are societal factors that do impact our mental health. It is an illness, like for God's sake, we need to stop invalidating it. Because this is the reason people don't get help. This is the reason stigma exists. There's so much so much misinformation about it. And sadly, this is the reason some people die. You're made to feel like it's your fault, you're positive. If you didn't do enough to prevent it, you didn't do enough to think positively, you didn't do enough to exercise. I was exercising four or five times a week during my pregnancy, I was eating well, pregnancy was physically the healthiest time in my entire life. I was also the most mentally unwell I ever was in my entire life. You know, we can throw these things out. And so you could just join I was journaling like we can do. I was seeing a psychologist, I was doing everything right, ticking all the boxes. It doesn't matter. It does not discriminate. And it is an illness. You know, give yourself some grace for that. Like it. Like I said before, I blamed myself a lot. I thought I'm doing everything right. I should have prevented this. It doesn't work like that. Yeah. How much more suffering Do we go through? Because we think of it they fought their way out of it all, but they just exercised and felt better. They went for a walk. Why isn't that fixing me? We suffer so much more because of this misinformation because of I don't know people, people aren't like this with physical illness. It's not like I'm gonna yell at my kidney for not producing enough insulin if I had diabetes. But we we dismiss anything in our mind because we think we have control over it. Really, we're only cognizant of what 10% Of our brain like it just does my head in that we still have these attitudes. It's 2022. Like, come on. But yeah, you still see it on social media, if you just take these vitamins, if you just work on your, you know, oh, you're clearly deficient in this might joke at me. Yes, having a balanced diet, having our, you know, vitamins and nutrients all important, but that is not the cure. Like we need to stop pushing it as the cure. Because it's not. Yeah, and yeah, I whenever I say stuff like that, I just think they that person who's wearing it, they have no idea. They actually have no idea. And they're seeing life in this fanciful sort of rose colored glasses sort of way. They've never suffered. No one ever struggled in that from actual mental illness, you know, and I just, I get so mad. I just have to unfollow people or block people. I just think there's no, there's no debating with people like that. They've got their heart ingrained views, they're not gonna listen to, you know, make writing a comment. But I do think sometimes when there's a big backlash to something in the media, like a celebrity said something, and everyone jumps on him. They're the times when people with these, you know, perhaps don't understand, have this glimpse into maybe understanding I don't know, like, I remember years ago, this has gone back ages Belkin was one of our killers, friends passed away through suicide. And he wrote this big thing on his Facebook. I'm sorry, you couldn't hold on for us. I'm sorry. It's like this had nothing to do with you. It had nothing to do with anybody else. And people jumped on him. And he and he was writing it from a point of view that he'd experienced seeing someone with depression. Right. And so people were saying, you obviously have never experienced this yourself. And it was a real big thing. And he kept turned around and said, I'm really sorry, didn't say, you know, and so moments like that, I sort of hold on to hope that other people will see that and go Oh, actually, maybe I don't understand this. Yeah, but yeah, in everyday stuff you There's no, there's no debating with these people that that's what they believe. And you're never going to change them. But I just hope, yeah, society. Yet it really pisses me off like it's done someone with a broken leg, you're not going to go along and kick their crutches away and say, Come on, you can control yourself fix your leg, you know? Yeah, I feel like sometimes going around with a T shirt. Like, I haven't been to where it's like, okay, so like, do I need a sign saying like, Be nicer to me? Like, I don't know, it just it shouldn't be that way. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I wouldn't wish it on those people. Because unfortunately, sometimes the only way you know is if you have gone through it personally. Yeah. But I mean, I wouldn't wish on them to know it. But yeah, unfortunately, there is still so much misinformation about mental health and so much bullshit, really so much that people don't know well, that they think they know. Yes, they think they know because they might have seen it, or they've had it or they felt a little bit depressed about something. One point in time, but it's very different from the illness, like very different. And I wish Yeah, I wish we didn't have to justify the illness. No one with diabetes has to I mean, sometimes people, you know, they weighed shame or whatever, oh, it's your own fault. It's not your fault. Like for God's sake, whether it's a physical illness or mental illness, we need to stop this shaming of people who aren't 100% Well, all the time, you know, it's not their own fault. It has is it something like gestational diabetes as well during pregnancy? There's so much blame and this mis misinformation that you caused it yourself. You weren't eating right enough. You weren't, you know, exercising, and it's nothing to do with that for God's sake. In terms of your support network, what does that look like for you? I mean, one of the best support networks if I can be honest, is the fact my son went to daycare like three days. That helped. You know, my mom and my dad have been an enormous help like practically, especially with my husband being away so they come help look after Pejic sorry, for my son punchy is what it is. nickname. Well, when I was pregnant, my bump we called it my punch. So it just the poor kid the name has just stuck. And even all my friends and family has punched doing my budget like the politics of tour. It stuck with him. But yeah, they all come over look after pajetta Yeah, I'm all look after some of the practical stuff around the house, especially when I was in the real real pits of glandular and I couldn't move, I was sleeping all day. And no matter how much I slept, I was still tired. You know, I was lucky my parents, they yesterday like an hour away in traffic, but they were still able to come over every now and then and help out and stay. And especially with both of us, me and being sick. Like, that was such a big help. I still have a psychologist. I still say my psychiatrist through the mother and baby unit Hospital, which is phenomenal. And yeah, obviously I had my husband via FaceTime and stuff, which I get a you know, it's not the same, but thank God for technology. Yeah, thank God, we have that stuff. So yeah, in a way I was. I was supported in that aspect. Maybe more. So for the practical stuff and the mental health stuff in terms of the artistic work creative stuff. And I still don't quite see myself as that just yet. We're working on that. I really don't think I had anyone to draw on. I don't have friends who really I don't know anyone who has their own business or who, you know, made a living out of something creative. So this is like I said, it's all very, very new to me, I'm still figuring this out. As I go. I'm teaching myself I'm learning. I mean, social media has been good in that sense that you create that community and you then are in touch with a lot of other women who are trying to be creative or they're trying to make a business out of something that they're passionate about. And so you do have that solidarity. Um, I guess none of us have it completely figured out but yeah, just doing the best we can and learning as we go. I like I said the support I've had has been very good I don't know, I've been very self taught. I guess I wish I wish I had someone to say how do I actually do this? So what the hell is an ABN? Like, either I'm really going from scratch. Yeah, yeah. I like that on social media. Like if I see if I see something, I think only 61 day. One of you think is like, how did you do that? I want to do that. Literally, my son's asleep in my arms, and I'm sitting there, whether it's two hours, however long he's having a nap, he won't move from my arms. I'll sit there on camera and just have a play, you know, and it's not perfect, but I'm just Oh, this looks good. I'm trying to do everything free, right? Like, I'm sure I could pay for extra or I could pay someone to do it for me, but I'm trying to do it all myself. I'm trying to do it as cheaply and freely as possible. So I'll just have a play. And if it looks alright, if I feel happy with it, then I'll post it. And yeah, I like I said, I wish I had someone just I just use this template or make my life a bit easier. But yeah, it's just figuring it out as I go. And if I'm playing while he's asleep, then I might learn something, or I might learn how not to do. I'm still learning either way. Really? Yeah. No, I love that. I think that's, that's awesome. I part of my experience of not wearing what people thought, I basically just jumped in and did it, because I had all my software from singing. So and I love editing. So there's that. But then same thing, like the things that you spent time on beforehand. I literally just did it by the seat of my pants, because I'm like, I really want to do this. And I'm going to do it right now. Yeah, so it's like, it can work either way you can make it work, however, it suits your personality. And I think for myself, I had to justify that, okay, if I want this to be real, then I have to know what I'm doing. And I have to do it. Like I have to put all the pieces together in the right order and do it slowly so that I can justify that this is going to be a valid thing. Not that I'm just I don't know, I mean, going to identity. I know this is such a stereotype. But you know, the whole the stereotype of Oh, you're just a mum, and you're working on a passion project while you're on maternity leave. I didn't want it to be just that I wanted to work against that narrative that, Oh, I get to, you know, play around with this passion project while my husband works a nine to five to financially support me so that I can work on this passion project. I really wanted to work against that narrative. And I wanted to be against that stereotype. And I wanted to be able to monetize and make it legit and real, not just something I'm slapping to get. I don't know, I wanted to be able to work against the stereotype and contribute to the family. I mean, I haven't done that yet. You know, not I haven't really challenged the stereotype, but in a way as well, sorry. You've mentioned on them the question she like the values we have as a society, on art and on creativity. And that narrative works against it. Right. Like we so I wanted to work against that stereotype. But I guess in doing so I'm just perpetuating the stereotype that creativity or women's work just doesn't matter unless it brings in money, you know? Yeah. And I think it is safe to say we just don't value art in society, which is ironic because we, we consume so much of it, whether it's art, whether it's listening to podcasts, or music, or watching movies, TV shows, even the design that goes into advertising, we consume so much of it, and yet we don't value the work behind it. Because it doesn't pay the bills. We are in a capitalist society unless they you know, we value competition, we value activities that can be monetized. But because it doesn't pay the bills, even I don't see myself as a creative person. Like I said, because I'm not really I'm not a real Podcast. I'm not a real writer, because that avenue of work is not bringing in money for me. At this point in time. As much as you know, somebody wants to sponsor me, I'll take it. Meaning to mean on the list and I'm doing it because it feels right. And I will go back to my job next month. But my nine to five job I should say, but I'm still going to be doing this and I've told my husband this is still a priority for me around mothering around my nine to five. Being able to share these stories and tell stories and advocate and educate about maternal mental health is something I hope to be doing. For the rest of my life. I will advocate for more mother and baby psychiatric hospitals. I think to the day I die because I don't think a lot unless something else happens in my life and that becomes the focus of my attention. That's my passion. You know, and I want I want to keep doing that. And I don't think if I stopped doing that, I don't think I'd be living authentically. As much as it doesn't bring in the bills. You know, I don't see it as real or important or valuable. Because it's not seen that way by other people because it's not bringing in money. And that's that's just what Yeah, so I'm yeah, I'm in this weird space of you know, not wanting to be the stereotypical mom on maternity leave just doing a passion project while hobbies at nine to five and then. But yeah, I'm, I guess in a way I'm perpetuating that because I'm because it's not bringing in money. I'm. Yeah. Yeah, it's such a minefield. Bullshit. Yeah, it's a frustrating one, that it's something that I've gotten more and more annoyed about. More I talk to people, and I've particularly on I've told this story a million times. So I'm sorry, if you've already heard this story. The, during the lockdown. And I say that I didn't really suffer too much. I wasn't like Melbourne was like, you know, the most lockdown city in the world or something. But we, we saw the sport continue. Yeah. All these these these AFL football as we're moving around the country continuing to play sport, and then money and for all the the TV companies with the right so you know, that was really important, apparently. So they kept going. But you know, all of the art stopped all of the gigs, all of the music, all that stuff. And it really annoyed me because like you said, we consume so much art and the the result of creativity of people. We're all sitting on our asses watching Netflix. I mean, who do you think made that? You know, like, it just really annoyed me. But that's how society views art and creativity. And like, ironically, to get through the lockdown, a lot of us turned to not necessarily creating but consuming at all. Yeah, like schools, like teachers would just say, Look, don't don't do all this maths homework, go paint a picture, go read a book, go do something creative and meaningful. And that was therapeutic. And we turned to that in those times when it was hard. And we know the value of it, we know how valuable it is on paper for our own therapy for our own meaningfulness for our own values and purpose. We know how valuable it is. But because there's not that monetary benefit, we don't value it as a society. So once locked down lifts, okay, we can all go back to normal and West, we're not going to prioritize art as therapy, or we're not going to, you know, look after our creative, you know, ourselves, there's so many different parts of ourselves that are practical self, our physical self, our creative stuff, when we're going to prioritize that part of ourselves. Because we just need to resume our, you know, nine to five activities, we need to contribute to the economy. Like, that's all that's seen as important. And I believe me, I understand why we have to go into lockdown to protect all of us, you know, I get it. It's still just, it's upsetting that there was some things that were prioritized over others. And you know, you do see society through a clear lens when you are in those situations where you see what we value. And ironically, we do value because that's what we were consuming. Yeah. That's not what society or our economy per se values. Because it's not got $1 attached to really, yeah, really frustrates me when you were growing up your mum, what sort of sort of role modeling did you get from your mom in terms of what a mother could look like? I suppose. I'm gonna I'm gonna bring up my grandmother here as well because I was very largely raised by my grandma. So my grandparents migrated from Italy in their 20s, I guess, they set up shop, they had kids. So in terms of mothering, from my grandmother's point of view, mothering was her whole life. Yeah. You know, you did everything for your children. You cooked for them, you cleaned for them. That was your Go. And I think as well, having that migrant background, you know, you do that for your kids so that they can go and succeed. So I guess mothering was her identity, or being a domestic worker, I guess, was the identity, that was her only role in life. But that's also a cultural thing, you know. And then, from my mother's perspective, my mother, you know, did go study and become that career woman. Because I guess, and I mean, maybe this is just my interpretation of it. But growing up with the migrant family, and that expectation that you have to do something with your life, they didn't suffer, they didn't sacrifice all of this for you to just not do it, you know, you want to succeed, you want to be good at what you're doing. And my mom was an excellent career woman. And I guess, as a mother was, I had those two extremes I had Korean woman and then I had the domestic and I'm, I guess, I don't know, where I see myself. Like I said, I'm trying to find that middle ground. That's not to say my mother wasn't mothering, or that my grandmother didn't have a job because she did have a job at some point. But in terms of the priorities, my own mother then carried the, I think, again, this is just my interpretation she carried that maybe the migrant mentality of you need to do everything for your children, my mother just did it in the sense of providing financially. Yeah, you know, it's you, she wanted me to go to a good school and to study and to work, you know, in order to do that it wasn't to stay at home, it was to go out and work and work her ass off, to be able to put me into private school or put, you know, just have that bit of life or have provide things that maybe she didn't have, you know, it's it's that cycle. And I don't know if it's a, I don't know, if it's a cultural thing, or a migrant thing, I don't know. But yeah, in terms of motherhood, I guess I had both examples of wanting to do everything for your child, but either way, whether it was through the home or through work, it was doing everything for your children, that was nice for you. And, yeah, I guess that that's something I'm trying to navigate, you know, I'm, I can genuinely say, I'm sorry, to my son, I'm not the mother, that's gonna do everything for him. You know, whether that's a good or bad thing I don't, I know that if I go down that road, that pressure will eat at me, I will not be an authentic person, and I will not be a healthy person. Because you know, even before I became a mother, you know, wanting to emulate that and have a career and push myself to my extremes. That's when the mental illness creeps in. Right? So I'm trying to find this balance between wanting to be the best mom I can for my son versus not sacrificing my sanity, or my passions, or my my soul. You know, I want to find that balance where, yes, my son is important. And I want him to feel important, and that I will do anything for him. But not at the cost of I don't know, I don't want to work until nine o'clock at night, or I don't want to just focus on the housework all day, every day. Like I want to find that balance. You're and I don't know what that looks like. I'm I'm figuring that out as I go. But yeah, yeah, I guess not. Motherhood was modeled like that. There was no creativity. There wasn't and, yeah, but that's okay. That was their experience. And that's what they did to survive. And, you know, obviously, I respect the work that they did, and how hard they worked for their children. You know, that's, that's the cultural attitude that I do want to take, I want my son to know, I worked hard so that he can have a roof of recital that, you know, we can then go out and play it, but I want also to enjoy the time with him. And not? Yeah, I don't know, I think this was probably the question that I struggled the most trying to think about. From your navigate that, do you think also in that you're, you're in context of working hard, is that working, and I feel like this, I feel like this for myself. So you may or may not feel like working hard on your own mental wellness, so you can be there for your child and you can meet their needs, in a way that you're happy with. And that, you know, is good for your child. I mean, that's a big priority for me. And it always has been before I became a mother, you know, with my prior experiences of mental health, I took my mental health very seriously. You know, I had been in therapy, probably since I was 16. Like just being able to work through that stuff. And I'd always said I didn't want to take it into motherhood. I didn't want my son to bear that burden. You Hmm. So I really focused on the skills and the therapy and the healing during my 20s. But I guess that kind of worked in a backwards way for me because it became that fixation. Like I said, at the start, pregnancy, I was consumed with planning for postpartum. And a big part of that was that first of all, I didn't want mental illness to get in the way of the earth or my parenting. But I also didn't want it to be something that my son inherited, I guess, by having that fixation it inevitably. Yeah, it worked against me, because I was, I was mentally ill. And I just didn't see it. I was so focused on postpartum that I just, I was really in denial about what I was going through through pregnancy. And, you know, it wasn't until I got to postpartum that I had that acute crisis episode that I was, you know, admitted to hospital that I was doing the best I could. And there's no such thing as 100% perfectly healed or recovered as much as I would like to think that or, as much as I held on to that belief that I could be cured and would never ever impact my son. I know now that healing, being imperfect, but still working on my healing is the best thing I can do for myself. It is absolutely best thing I can do for him in that working on myself acknowledging my own bullshit, being self aware, that is the best thing I can do for him not being perfect, like that perfectionism, or holding on to being perfect or cured or happy all the time would actually be more damaging to him. Then a mother who acknowledges her own shit, and is trying to work on it and apologizes. And like, that's what's gonna help him in the long run. Yeah. Yeah. And like, that's always been a priority, clearly, but now I'm approaching it from a different perspective. Yeah, no, I think like my eldest son's 14, and has his own issues with mental health. And I think it's really important to role model as a parent, that, you know, things are really hard. But if you're, if you put in the work, and you utilize the tools around you, and the things that you have access to, then that's really it is really important to it is you can't just sweep it under the rug, and you can't think everything's going to be fine. It's like you, you have to do the work. And it's as shitty as it is. And as horrible as it is. And he's had times where he's, he's hidden particular things from me, because he was like, Oh, I know, if I told you, I would have had to go back and talk to, like his counselor, he just didn't want to have to start the whole cycle. Again, it's like, this is what it is, it'll always be this, there'll be times in your life, where it will you rise up again, and you'll have to address it. You know, and I know, I've had times where I've finally found it very difficult to hide, you know, emotions, or episodes or things that I'm going through. And I sort of feel bad for that, because I sort of think my kids shouldn't have to bear the burden of, of, of my illness. At the same time, I sort of think this is our reality. And this is what would have happened, you know, 50 6070 years ago, everything was hidden. And that's probably why we have these issues with stigma and, and not understanding because it was so hidden away. So yeah, there's a balance there that I struggle with at times, but I think it is important that people know, and your kids know, maybe not to see it in all its glory. But you know, it's finding that balance between, you know, wanting to show, okay, this is, this is what it is, this is the reality versus making it their problem to solve, you know, we definitely don't want to do that. But we don't want to pretend that these things don't exist. But, you know, you're modeling to your son that if this does happen, you know, he knows where to turn, you are a safe place to turn to he will and He knows that you will understand. And you know, he's obviously seen you work on your mental health, so he knows, okay, I can do it too. And that, that is the best thing you can give to your kids. Honestly, it really is. And you know, it's not perfect, or it's not ideal, but you're not making it your son's problem. But you're showing him that it's okay to have mental ill health and that it's okay to talk about mental health and that we should be doing that. That's the only shot I'll ever say in my life is that we should be talking about mental health. Yes. Should be more of it. Yes. Yeah. And I think like, teenage teenage years, you know, through Tori, ously difficult to navigate regardless of any Other issues you've got. So it's like a no just talking, keeping the communication. Absolutely any kid will benefit from skills to help their emotional and mental health, even if they haven't, no mental illness, any of those skills are so valuable to any teenager because yeah, it's that hormonal thing. We want to sit there and say, Oh, it all has a reason. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's just our hormones go in flux. And that's what had happened to me as a kid. I had, you know, the, the anxiety as you know, as a child, but then when you get to your teenage years, hormones really kick in. And if he takes it to another level, you know, and it's all that's when, you know, the OCD and things really set in all those intrusive thoughts. You can't really ignore them anymore. Yeah. And it can be such a scary time because you're dealing with physical changes to your body, and then, you know, emotional and then mental and it's like, what's going on? And who can you talk to? And all this sort of stuff comes up? It's just here. And then social media, I guess these days? Oh, yeah. I got out of AZ without having phones and technology back in the day. I mean, I, I don't understand. I mean, this is probably going off topic. But there is such an attitude in society that what teenagers go through isn't real, or it's not important. And but you know, you'll get over it. It's, you know, and that attitude is so damaging. Yeah, I don't get it. Like we so quick to the little kid. And yes, you know, they might have their heart broken for the first time. And it's, you know, yes, it's different to, you know, something else you might go through as an adult, but that doesn't make it any less. You know, it's important for them. And, yeah, time in their life. That is the biggest thing. That's all I can think about. To shut that down. Yeah, I really dislike that. That attitude that a lot of people have, and you see it a lot on social media that all teenage. But anyway, that's going off topic. But yeah, that's frustrating. Yeah. And that that will contribute to mental unwellness. So of course, and then you get some motherboard and you're not meant to complain, because everyone's a mother and everyone does it and blah, blah, blah, like either we if we can actually support our kids when they're going through that hard stuff as kids as teenagers. Just yeah, it might not prevent a mental health episode, but it might just make it less severe. might make it easier to get through might make it quicker for them to you know, overcome. I guess it Yeah. Anyway, I'm yeah. My first degree was actually originally in early childhood. Ah, right. Yep. So yeah, that was yeah, it's always been important to me to see kids to see teenagers as people as valid. They have emotions, and that's okay. They're not Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that's, that's important. Yeah. And I'm sure there's a lot of moms listening that have, you know, children of different age. So, you know, it's good to share what you know, actually, speaking of this, I'm going off topic again. But my my, Alex, my 14 year old, the other day, I made a decision. That wasn't what we would have agreed with. And, and I said to my husband, we can't, we can't punish him too much for this because his brain physically hasn't evolved to the point where you can make decisions the same way we can. And I just thought, gee, we as a society, we've come a long way, because that's not how my parents would have traded. No, you should have known better. What were you thinking? Well, my frontal prefrontal cortex hasn't evolved yet. So. Yeah, and I mean, you know, we're trying to negotiate. I mean, our parents probably did the same. You know, it's either you, you treat us as kids all throughout, no, you're just a kid, you can't make a decision. Or, on the other extreme, you know, you want to be treated like an adult, why aren't you acting like an adult? You know, those two extremes that, you know, you're either treating them like a kid or you're expecting them to behave like an adult. We need to do better at treating them, or meeting them where they're at. Yeah, and I think we are getting better. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, there's so much science out there. Now, that tells us this stuff. Like the reason I it's in front of front of my mind. It's in your frontal lobe. Pardon. I was listening to the radio last night, and there was this, this. I don't know what they were talking about to start with. But then they got on to the brain and they said that your brain evolves or matures from the back to the front. Like it's that's what we know. And it's like, Oh, my God, no wonder I made foolish decisions as a teenager. Like it just it there. The science is there to back it, you know, and you know, it's you can't argue with that. I feel like You know, we've got all these other tools in these, this information at our disposal now to be able to treat, you know, people of different ages with appropriate, you know, responses, you know? And that's why I'm mixed. I'm excited to see the next generation grow up. Oh, yes, they'll have been parented very differently. And I'm actually looking for I'm hoping I'm hopeful for them that they don't know that things are better for them that they're easier for them. That's all you want for your kids you want. What's better for them either. Anyway? Yeah, no, that's fair enough. Can you just give me a sec? I've just heard a knock on my door. Oh, sure. Please. Come nice. Hello, Dolly. I'm going really good to come say hello. Yeah. This is Rebecca. You've said a little bit. Nice to meet you. degree. This is my little. Oh, he's a champ. He's so funny. He often does call in and say hello to people. Yes, shut the door. He's gone yeah. And thank you for this space, I think it's so important we talk about, you know, not just creativity, but as a mother, you know, being able to because that's, you know, that's the job being a mom, we're meant to do that. 100% of the time, and yet, where people? Yeah, so being able to talk about, you know, how we find that balance, or whether we can actually find that balance or how we do it, you know, being able to talk about that I think is so important, because there is still so much guilt, there is still so much shame. If you're, you know, I could be doing more, I should be doing more. But that person's doing that, why aren't I you know, and we beat ourselves up and at what cost? You know, so I got on you for doing this and encouraging all of us really to keep doing what feels right. Yeah, thank you so much. Is there anything else that you'd like to mention or share and you did say about, you're heading back to work, but this isn't going to stop for you. This is a, this is your passion, and you're going to keep doing this, which is I want to I want to get to a point obviously, where I can phase out of, you know, the nine to five, and I can work on this, I guess full time and you know, get paid two. That would be the goal. And I mean, I've got my little it's like a mini vision board. I'd say like it's got all my plans. Like I want to write a book, you know, finally, one that's not crap. I want to Yeah, I want to keep working in this field, whatever that looks like, whether it's also pumping out workbooks, like coming from my background with journaling or storytelling and being able to you know, facilitate. Yes, it's not a cure and God I would never market it as a cure but okay, he's something that we can maybe work on that might it helped me hopefully it helps you a little bit to like that's the stuff I would love to be doing doing the podcast doing the social media stuff. Yeah, just those kind of digital work you know, he's some journaling prompts was that like something like, you know, I'd love to just phase out of the nine to five and be able to focus on this because I I love sharing these stories. You know, I I was really worried when I started podcasting and interviewing people but the more I'm doing it, the more I realize. Yeah, like as much it's it's sad and it's confronting, like just hearing those stories and knowing that someone out there is actually trusting me with their story with their vulnerable experience just means the world and I don't take that lightly. Yeah, and I want to be able to do that justice and I want to be able to help them, you know, be able to facilitate the sharing of that story because I know that's not easy. But also help out The people that they're not alone. So if I can somehow figure out a way to make this work, you know, make this an actual job, so to say, then I'll do it. And hopefully one day I'll see myself as a creative. I still see myself as that organized planner, because that's, that was so indoctrinated in me. It's what I did to function in this world, I guess up until this point. Maybe I'll just have to find a balance between the two parts of myself. But yeah, one day. I'm hoping that that'll be what I can do. I can work in order to facilitate that right. Now, good on you. I really hope you do. That would be so awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been so lovely to talk to you and to meet you. And to talk face to face. Yeah. And I mean, I saw your story submission for my podcast. I was like, When can I message her to say she can come on my plane? I feel like I have to go on yours first. Because we've been trying to organize it. Yeah, that'd be awesome. I'd love to share your story too. If you're comfortable. Absolutely. It'll be pleasure. I'd be honored to actually be Yeah, thank you. We can we can negotiate. That good audio. Thank you. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alemjo, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

The Heart Songs Podcast Series To celebrate the launch of my debut album Heart Songs, I have put together a podcast series where I chat about each track on the album, the inspiration, where it came from, the production or anything else I feel like sharing! The Art of Being a Mum Podcast CLICK HERE

3 Elena Zima Russian painter 3 Article # 30 June 2023 My name is Elena Zima. I'm an artist. I live in Moscow. My mother dreamed that I would learn to draw. So through me she tried to realize what she herself was not available in childhood. She sent me to an art studio at the age of 6. I was good at it. Perhaps painting is the only thing that I was good at as a child and brought only positive emotions. As a teenager, I studied with the best artists. But at the same time, it was considered impossible to "become an artist" in the family and in society. This is not a profession, but condemning yourself to a poor life. So I went to study and work in a completely different direction. I graduated from the Faculty of History and Philology and went to work in the media. But wherever I was, I was always drawing. People noticed this and often asked to draw something for them. Orders began to appear, then I realized that I could earn more by painting than by working in a magazine. As a result, I quit and began to look for my own style in painting and develop as an artist. I paint in the classical realism and in the style of magical realism. I use magical realism to show the secret life of nature and objects. Every painting has an additional artistic layer: different reality, other life of objects and their history. Just like in childhood, looking at clouds, we saw different shapes. The same way the shadows in the foliage of the trees could fold into a shape of a person. The purpose of my art is not just to depict the outer shell of things but to reveal the inner world and personal history of objects. I have not big family: myself, my husband, our ten-year-old daughter Anna and a cat. My family is my main characters in my paintings and they often serve as models for my future artworks. They help me and inspire me. Well, except for those moments when they complain that I like painting more than them. My workday at the moment looks like this: I get up at 6:30 in the morning, see my daughter off to school, spend about an hour on myself (breakfast, checking email and social media), then I go up to my studio (I'm lucky - my studio is on the third floor of my house) and work on a painting until about 2 pm. I have lunch. If it;s not a busy day, I might go out for a walk. Then my students come into the studio and I give lessons. In the evening I help my daughter with her homework; we talk, do something about house, and have dinner as a family. Of course, this is an example of a perfect schedule where everything goes according to plan. But quite often the schedule changes: we have to take a painting to an exhibition or go to a colleague's exhibition opening in the evening, the child or I may fall ill and then the whole routine changes. To be honest, I have a hard time dealing with the sudden change in schedule. If I don't get to work on a painting in a day, I get very anxious. I'm just learning to let myself rest from the daily grind. And of course it wasn't always like this. I was able to work fully only when Anna went to kindergarten. Now my daughter is big enough to go to exhibitions with me. Of course, she does not always have the patience to endure a long event, but at least she is very interested in what her mother does. My husband helps me build an optimal daily routine - he often picks up my daughter from school, helps me prepare lunch or dinner, and I have extra time to work or rest. "I believe that my art will teach my daughter humanism, a humanistic view of the world. It will teach her to respect her vocation and her interests, regardless of finances or society's opinion. It is important to be yourself and to love yourself." I have many artist friends who also have to combine art and family. Some of them had to stop their creative work for a long time and work at another job to raise a child. But then they came back to art anyway. It helped me to stop being afraid that if I interrupted my artistic work for a while, I wouldnt be able to go back. I realized that sometimes artists (both men and women) can pause to solve their problems and then paint again and be fully in the art profession. Being a mum The birth of my daughter played a huge role in my development as an artist. If before the birth of Anna painting was more of a hobby for me (I did not participate in exhibitions, I painted mostly only to order), then after the birth of daughter, I realized that I need to find my own style of painting, to formulate what I want to convey to the viewer through my art. I must take part in exhibitions. I need to evolve. To become better and cooler, to make my daughter proud of her mother. While my daughter was baby and couldn't get along without me, I felt terrible because I really wanted to get myself back as a person as soon as possible, to stop being an "app"; to serving the child and to get back to being creative as soon as possible. I was in a big hurry and felt guilty that I was a bad mother and could not fully immerse myself in my child's life. When Anna was about two years old, we had a babysitter come over three times a week for three hours at a time. Those nine hours a week became my salvation. I was slowly getting myself back on track. I realized that I would only be a good mom if I had the opportunity to do what I loved. I learned how to leave for a few hours without “mum guilt”, to completely immerse myself in my world for that time, and then return to my child energized and ready to spend full and sincere time with my daughter. Probably the hardest situation was when my husband and I had to fly out to another country for a week for an exhibition, and left my daughter with her grandmother. She was too small to take with us. But my priority at the time was to develop my career as an artist. I don’t regret that I didn’t give up this trip, because then a year later there was a pandemic, problems with flights, obtaining visas, etc. And if I hadn’t taken advantage of this opportunity then, I still wouldn’t have had the experience of a foreign exhibition. What about Anna - she had a wonderful time with her beloved grandmother. There were no tears or heartache. She knows that her mum goes to exhibitions, it’s her job. And she always proudly tells her friends about me. I feel much more “mum guilt” when I do chores (washing dishes, cooking, cleaning) instead of spending time with my daughter. It really is a waste of time - no fun for me and no attention for the child! Fortunately, she;s old enough now that we can, for example, cook something delicious together. When a baby is first born, the first year (and more) a woman is completely devoted to her baby. Breastfeeding, caring for the baby, walking, sleeping - all this fills a woman's life completely. It is really hard to find time for yourself. And it's hard to believe that there will ever be time for yourself. You don't feel like a separate person, but like an infant's attendant. It was a really difficult period for me. I was used to a multi-faceted life - painting, equestrian, work, meeting with friends. All that had to be forgotten for a while. And then to return slowly back into my life. To choose what is most important and what to wait for, or what to give up. Of course, with the baby, life will never be the same again. Now there was the most important thing in it - a new life, for which you are responsible. But my life has not become more boring or monotonous. Now, 10 years later, I can definitely say that with the birth of a child, I have more things in my life, I just learned how to combine them all. And I also realized that only by my own example I can show my daughter what it means to live a full life. Do I want Anna, when she grows up, to devote her life to housekeeping? Absolutely not. I want my daughter to live an interesting and fulfilling life. And only from me she can learn how multifaceted a woman's life is. Not from my stories, but from the way I live. Because children are educated not by words, but by what happens before their eyes. "While my daughter was baby and couldn't get along without me, I felt terrible because I really wanted to get myself back as a person as soon as possible, to stop serving the child and to get back to being creative as soon as possible. I was in a big hurry and felt guilty that I was a bad mother and could not fully immerse myself in my child's life. " To be an artist is not to have a steady income. Of course, this is very damaging to one;s ego. When there are a lot of successful, well earning peers around, and your sales are down, or your online account is closed because of the political situation, you feel worthless, as if you've achieved nothing in life. Every time you fall down, you have to get back up and move on. But I believe that my art will teach my daughter humanism, a humanistic view of the world. It will teach her to respect her vocation and her interests, regardless of finances or society's opinion. It is important to be yourself and to love yourself. My mother's fate and her actions greatly influenced my character and attitudes. In my childhood in Russia it was not customary to divorce, it was considered shameful. But a man could simply leave a woman with children and not help them. But for a woman to file for divorce herself - that was rare. So my mother divorced twice, ecause she did not agree to tolerate bad treatment of herself. She was always very different from ordinary people. She was able to build a brilliant career as a lawyer on her own and she is still working today. Everyone admires her now, but few people shared her views then. She is strong and independent. Apparently that;s why it's important for me to be financially independent, too. It;s true that with the profession of an artist, this is hard to achieve in my country. Now I started two new series of artworks. The first is portraits painted on uncoated canvas. The lack of a background allows focusing as much attention as possible on the subject of the image. The hero of painting is captured in the process of working or interacting with the world around him. It is important to catch the character, or rather, one important detail through which the whole image is revealed. And the second is about the inner world of man. This inner world is not constant. It changes depending on our moods and the moods of the people around us. A person;s inner space can be very different from the outer space. This resonance of the internal feeling and the external environment is the main theme of the new series of paintings, in which silhouettes of people are filled by the second background, reflecting the general mood. Contact Elena My Instagram accounts: @elena_zima_artist – about art and life @elena_zima_art – only art BACK

ShanRong Janicijevic-tuo US violinist + music educator S2 Ep46 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Today I welcome ShanRong Janicijevic-tuo to the podcast, a violist and music educator based in New York City, USA and a mother of 1. Born in China, ShanRong started playing the violin at the age of 10, which was considered late to start. ShanRong grew up in a valley a long way from the city, so she didn't have access to teachers. Her mother trained to become a violin teacher so she could teach her. After just 4 years of lessons, ShanRong was accepted into her high school Conservatory talent programme, After school ShanRong travelled to Singapore to completed her undergraduate education at the Yong Siew Toh Conservatory of Music, where she was under the tutelage of Mr. Zuo Jun and Mr. Alexander Souptel, former Concert Master of Singapore Symphony Orchestra. ShanRong then travelled to Pittsburgh to do her Masters and 4 years later got into the Doctorate programme in New York City. ShanRong holds Master’s Degree and Artist Certificates in Violin performance and orchestra studies from the prestigious Carnegie Mellon School of Music as a full scholarship recipient, where she studied with Mr. Cyrus Forough, a pupil of legendary violinist David Oistrakh. ShanRong has more than 12 years experience working with students from different levels, ages, races and countries. Many of her college and pre-school students have accepted in major music schools and festivals in China and the United States. In academic teaching and researching, ShanRong was a teaching assistant in Western Music History and Rock Music History at Stony Brook University. ShanRong is a doctoral candidate in violin performance at Stony Brook University and recently appeared as soloist and chamber musician with Ms. Jennifer Frautschi, and Emerson quartet members at Stony Brook University Starry Nights Concert series, Arts of Violin and Chamber Music Festival. Today we chat about the unexpected injury that ShanRong has suffered since becoming a mother, role modelling the will to never give up and the appreciation she has for the support of those around her. You'll also hear chatter from her 8 month old and the rumble of the New York trains. Music from Dr Erica Ball US composer, pianist and music educator, and previous guest of the podcast ShanRong website / instagram Podcast website / instagram Mummys Wrist Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. On today's episode, I welcome Shan Rong gana ceviche Torre to the podcast, a violinist and music educator based in New York City and a mother of one. Born in China, SHAN Rong started playing the violin at the age of 10, which was considered late to start Shenron grew up in a valley long way from the city so she didn't have access to teachers. Her mother trained to become a violin teacher so that she could educate her. After just four years of lessons, Shenron was accepted into her high school conservatory talent program. After school Shan rung traveled to Singapore, to complete her undergraduate education at the young suto Conservatory of Music. Shenron then traveled to Pittsburgh to do her master's and four years later was accepted into the doctorate program in New York City. Shenron holds a master's degree and artist certificates in violin performance and orchestra studies from the prestigious Carnegie Mellon School of Music. Shenron also has more than 12 years experience working with students from different levels, ages, races and countries. Many of our college and preschool students have accepted in major music schools and festivals in China and the United States. In academic teaching and researching Shenron was a teaching assistant in western music history and rock music history at Stony Brook University. Today, we chat about the unexpected injury that shamrock has suffered since becoming a mother role modeling the wheel to never give up. And the appreciation she has for the support of those around her. You'll also hear chatter from her eight month old son and the rumble of the New York City trains. The music you hear throughout this episode was composed by a previous guest of mine, Dr. Erica ball from the United States. This episode contains discussion around anxiety. Is that lady talking to my mom? Welcome Shenron it's such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for having me. Yeah. So you're in New York City. Tell me a little bit about life in New York City. I think it's one of those places that people always sort of want to visit and and aspire to visit. Just tell us what it's like to live there. New York City is very busy. The living past is really fast. And I don't know if it's because I get I'm getting older. And that I'm a mom. So I just felt like Monday to Friday just like a flying so fast. You just don't notice that. And then time is gone. Yeah, we just live here. Day by day and just very busy. Yeah. Yeah. You are is always very exciting. It's a lot of going on a lot of arts going on and a lot of things going on. I'm really happy that after, you know, we sort of going through this kind of pandemic thing locked down and are kind of dead in that moment. And then everything's getting back slowly. Which I'm happy. Yeah, but in general is very, very fast. Very busy city. Yeah, for sure. Very good. What brought you to New York City. Oh, I sort of traveled all over the place. Orange finally I was born in China. I went to Singapore for my undergraduate studies. So I was in Singapore for many years and To come to state is really the reason that I came here to study my master's degree, pursue my further education. So yeah, I went to Carnegie Mellon for my master's degrees. And also my artists deploy my training over there in Carnegie Mellon, and I moved to New York in 2015, just to come here to complete my doctoral degree. So let's share with our listeners what you do you play the violin, and incredibly well to you, because I've watched some of your videos that were linked to your website, just beautiful. Tell us about how you got started playing. Yeah, I actually started on this road when I was 10. It wasn't, it wasn't early, because most of my colleagues theory, or starters, like two and a half and why? Well, I lived in your Valley in China. And it's kind of far from CD. So I never actually get a chance to actually get to touch this instrument. But I always see people playing back then in team on TV. So I was holding a chopsticks. Like, I'm pretending I'm playing. And I even like I wasn't sure what I was doing. But I always very excited to see people playing, even to hear just hear the music. Yeah. And just by occasion, that my mom's friend's daughter actually got a chance to go to Sydney to learn this instrument. And then they brought the teacher to the valley. So I actually started a group lesson. And I was one of those overdose coats in the class. And I was just basically running around. I wasn't learning in the moment, my mom was like, What are you doing after half year, I don't even know the open strings of my instruments. She sort of getting into it, it was like, and she started getting all those books. And she started to study by herself. And she started to just teach me and after half year, my mom sort of fired the teacher. And she brought me on this road. And we found a teacher in CT will occasionally go into that teacher's house, like every half year because it's only two hours by bus from the valley. I used to live to the city. So my mom does lead me there, like every half year. But the rest of time she won't be learning by those teaching tapes. And you know, that then, like 20 years ago, then we don't have like DVDs or those kind of things. We have like your VCR like you really big tape. Yeah, yeah, we do. And my mom bought all those teaching tapes and that she just, I don't know, she's amazing. You should learn about ourselves. She got all those books and she watched you have people play on the TV and she just learned how to hold a ball how to read music. She just taught her something and I just after four years and I got into high school consequently, talent, talent program. Yeah, by playing Czajkowski are actually not checkups me. I played school as planning concerto, the first movement when I was 14 years old. Yeah. Well, I started 13 years old. And I yeah, I do not know how I have no idea. How did I do it? Everything for me? Yeah. So that's how I started. And after, you know, years of studies, and I just auditioned, and I got into Singapore. That's long story short, so I got into Singapore finished my bachelor and I started my masters in Pittsburgh. And four years later, I got into the doctoral program is still over. Yeah, that's just the kind of trip. Wow, that is. That's an incredible story that your mom was so passionate for you to play that she basically she became your teacher. And she also ended up teaching her having her own studio. Yeah, brought up so many very, so many talented students. And actually, one of them now works for Amazon and she used to be playing a lot but now she's, she's working for Allah. Come like go scientists for the Amazon yeah what was it like having your mom as a teacher? Was she really tough on you because you were your daughter? Or she was she liked? Yes. I think she has a lot of patience for me. Because I wasn't an easy kid. I do not want to practice but she asked me do you want to practice? No, I definitely absolutely hate practicing with passion. Yeah. But she believes she believes in me and she trusts that I would have this as my career. She's for some reasons too. So that in my in my life, hmm. Yeah. I do not know how she did it. But that's she had been she gave up a lot to give up her work. And she dedicated to my practice. She gave up TV shows. She don't watch TV. And she just cut off her friends for me to just be with me and practice. Yeah, she sets all my lessons and she sets all my practice. Yeah. Is your mom still alive now? Yeah, she's she she now she's a she lives in China. Yeah, so she's been able to see your whole career like she's she's seen everything you've achieved. She must be so incredibly proud of you. Well, she was happy time to time well, she will also get very critical comment. So basically tell me I really don't like your dress that you wear on the performance punch you just tie your hair better I think that phrase you can do that phrase again, like in this way. So Interplay playing and she's so into my performance my like a progress. Yeah. Like a performance related or now like nowadays I teach a lot and she sometimes give me feedbacks or my teaching or she will give me some advice on how to handle my students. Oh, wow. That is incredible. So at that time in China was that something that was out of the ordinary for a mum to do? Well, that's back then. It's very rare that for someone will quit her job. Basically just to dedicate everything give everything to the child. Oh, very unusual. Yeah. Yeah. People don't seem I understand. People even laughed at her like you know, say Oh, I gotta see how is your young daughter going to be but turned out nobody knows what's gonna happen So how old you little boy there seven month and last. I love seeing his photos when you put things up on his on your Instagram. He's just the most gorgeous I bet you hear that a lot. You Yeah, people always like Well, yeah, like if they want people if people know me the result? Ah, he looks like Daddy or you look like mommy. I'd be if I walk on the street. I got someone asked me I knew the nanny. Like there's one day there's a lady random lady come up to me that people find that very respectful but like I just want that for fun. Yeah. Thinking that maybe because my, I wasn't dressed well, because nowadays when you become a mom, you don't have time to think, Oh, I got to put up makeup, I got to dress nicely, I have things first thing on my shirt, or just wear sweatpants and running out, just get some food, you know, like I don't have I could totally actually complain about that tell us about some of the things I was reading in your bio about places that you've performed and things that you've done and share with us a little bit about some of the things the performances or the things you've done that really stick in your mind that that you're like your favorites, I suppose? Well, I have to really say that I really enjoy performing, especially chamber music. And not even mention about solo music. Mean solo means just love it by yourself. So far, I have done a lot of performance with string instruments or piano a lot. And but last year in November, I performed it with a newly formed orchestra in New York City, which is right after, like not too long after I gave birth. I gave birth in August, and then that concert happened in November. I played with this chamber orchestra. Yeah. Yeah, so that's basically what I do. Yeah, the performance. Yeah. And hopefully, a new future that I can't have some more kind of like a chamber music series come up. So I can perform. During the pandemic is a little hard. Oh, like a 2020 2020 2021. Back then from 2020 was a first year. We don't, we don't like everywhere in New York City was shut down. Like retrim Metropolitan Opera was shut down and new. New York Philharmonic was shut down. And all the artists has no stage to perform. The concert halls was close. So but the time I still didn't give up. So I flooded positions we performed on the performance on the road on the side of the road. And we put we played a lot of string string works like like trills, Doros and solo violence. Yeah. And we played those kind of outdoor concerts. You have a pandemic, and we have great turnout. Yeah. And also, I also played a lot in church, which our church I played with organ and piano. Yeah. A lot. The only thing that I don't I didn't do much is in to play in the orchestra. I don't consider myself an orchestral musician. Although I love orchestral music. I love to be your audience. Instead of sitting in. Yeah, maybe hopefully, in the future, maybe I will have a different experience. Or maybe my, my feeling will change. But who knows. I enjoy chamber music. Oh, yeah. The only one of the videos I was watching, you're playing the solo for winter by the rowdy from the four seasons. Can you tell us a little bit about that? That performance? Oh, that performance was in 2013. And I was selected by the school. And that year was the 100 years anniversary for Carnegie Mellon University. So that was to the gala concert. So I was like, there were there was a call permutation is cool. Like, we have like a 10 students playing the same piece. And I got lucky got selected to play that gala concert. And it was it was broadcast at the same time on the wq. Ed. Radio Station classical. Yeah. And to all the December because it will happen in December, right. It was a winter concert and true December. Everyone can hear my flying on this radio station. It was just repeatedly playing during that season. It's like a holiday season. Like, if you hear winter. That's me. I forgot my friend called me. Turn on the radio. You were you were on the plane. Oh, that was wonderful experience for me. And costs a house for a beautiful two. Yeah, and playing in front of that orchestra would have been quite incredible for you. And we have a choir, the choir entire choir was behind me. Like it turned out because there's no time for people to stand out from the stage. So I just have to come out play and then off again Absolutely. So what are your, some of your favorite pieces or favorite composers that you enjoy to play? Well, over the years, it's changing so much. I remember when I was just out from college, I enjoyed the play. Chuck kowski. Like, you know, those very romantic pieces. And then time passing, right that you grow older and you experience a lot in life. And I figured I I do really, really like love Beethoven. And I love Brahms. And then later on, I started to get into a lot of contemporary pieces, too. And buy new composers. Yeah. But in general, my. My favorite composer, I have to say the pieces to play is Beethoven is controllable. And he's so novice and also Bach. Yeah, that's like, the top. Yeah, yeah. I have nothing to work on. If I have nothing to play, I will just do something. Yeah. was pregnant 2020 in November? Yeah. So 2021 is the time like, basically, I got pregnant. And I still manage the practice back then. Although the first three months was really hard, because I my body was just off. I couldn't get off the couch. Yeah. So and then after that I still kept practicing. And so I also managed to have rehearsals with my friend. Yeah. And I had rehearsals in my house. And I also did rehearsal with my friend who plays the viola we we've prepared, prepared for the concert to be happening in November last year. Yeah. But we hadn't rehearsed. So in May, June, July, and, like I go to give birthday August, sort of like that. And I managed to practice because I say is pandemic essence, I'm not going anywhere. So I sort of made a list of work that I wanted to practice. Yeah, but I never get a chance. But now I got pregnant, so I had a plenty time. And then I just started practicing all those pieces. Yeah, yeah. Great, great time to work on things that you don't have time for. But yeah. So like, during that time, I found myself I can sit down and to just focus longer. I do not know. Because if there's a because of hormones or like I have just been changed. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And there's a beautiful photo that you sent me. of you. I'm not can't remember how many months pregnant now, but you've you've got your violin. And then you've got the baby violin sitting on your name. Yeah, that was in June, July. Yeah, July. We're in year two. I watch any beginning of July. We're in year two. Yeah. That's yeah. So like, my friend. I was kept asking me if I want my boy to play instruments. I said no. I saw her daughter swollen. Because my friend she was still photograph. Until I saw that. I was like, oh, like, let me take a photo with it. Yes, I guess maybe we. Listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. You said that you went back and your first performance was when your sound was three months old. How How hard was that to do? Well, I think the trickiest thing for me back then was when we had to have rehearsal. I had the conductor and I had the other soloist came to my apartment. And the hardest thing is you're rehearsing babies all weekend. So the conductor, so they are they're both are my friends. So the conductor has to hold my baby in one hand and listen to us like it's kind of you Yeah, he was. He was to one month in house. Over two months. Yeah. It's amazing what we do, isn't it to make things work? Yeah. And also, sometimes he has to just see through my practice. Yeah, I have to, or like during the rehearsal when the conductor wasn't here, just me and the violist. I had to put him right next to me was not my turn. I sort of like, like a pedicab. Like him to calm down. And when those my term and to enter, I have to grab my esteros. Fast and join. Join her. Yeah, that was it was a challenge. But yeah, but that's the thing, though, isn't it? It's like, I guess you wanted to get back to playing it was important for you to keep that part of your life going. Yeah. So I have to say, if you if I look back from the time when I give birth to now, the hardest thing and making more than most is actually not because I don't have time to practice or I don't have energy is that truly the ones that I because I have to keep holding the baby and I sort of develop mommy's wrist Oh, third most last November when I performed with this collective 366 My wrist my full hand was really painful. I sort of have to change a lot of Boeing's because that to compensate, but a lot of boys that I do. So I because that reason hurts so much. I cannot do a post ago. So I have to sort of change the bowing that I used to do before I give birth. So now I have to change a lot of things to make it happen. Yeah, for sure. And then after performance, the baby is scoring bigger and I have to carry him continuously to calm him down. Right and, and then my left hand also developed the mommy's wrist. So now that I come to the question that uh, do I have to give up my plane? Now, yes, I sort of have to say a lot of said no to a lot of concerts performance. Yeah. It hurts even when I have to just demonstrate to my students. Yeah, I can do. I cannot do shifts. Yeah, on my left hand, I cannot really do shifts because it hurts the muscle when I have to use too. Well, the good thing is this just a temporary in just a moment. So I, I wasn't giving up the whole whole thing yet. So I'm just basically I'm not taking any performance. I'm not performing or having any rehearsal, but I still happen to manage that to practice self care basic skills. Yeah, yeah. Like to, like I'm now here. I'm actually a new mom taking baby steps. Yeah, I'll make sure to Yeah, isn't it? Yeah, physically, you can use I can play longer. longest time I have some some sort of movements that I can do. Yep. Wow. Was that something that you anticipated? When, when you were pregnant? No, I was actually shocked. I didn't know. I didn't do research that I might going to this. Some women, they were experiencing this kind of pain, even before the baby was born. I think it does have something related to the hormones. Do you sort of feel a little bit like, I feel a bit like it's not fair that I've got to give up? You know, playing or do you feel okay with it? I'm okay with it. Because children cared for, like, my baby is extension of my life. And it's from me and my husband. I don't really think it's not fair. And I, but I'm not. Also I'm not gonna say that. I'm enjoying every single moment. Fair. I'm not saying that I'm enjoying every single moment. But I'm, I'm just trying to experience every bit of it. Whether it is happy, whether it's tired, or even sad, or angry, or disappointed, sometimes love my husband is here if you're in there. I'm trying to experience because I believe this thing. Having a baby having a child in my life is should be part of my life. Yeah, let's see. Of course, it is very hard for a woman and to be a mom to be an artist to be a teacher to be an educator. It just so much to do even not to forget to be your wife. Yeah, that's it. I'm still struggling with how to balance sometimes I'm just like, Oh, I'm just really burnout. Yeah, yeah. I think that's something I can all relate to. Yeah, I'm really appreciate that. Although I don't have my parents with me, you know, in our culture, your, your parents can help you. Like, our parents can help us with baby. But we don't have our pants. It's basically me and my husband. So the daytime he is at work. And when he comes home, he will take over the baby then I can have some time to cook. And when the baby go to the bat, then we we finally have some time to eat and to clean it up, you know, just very busy. Oh, yeah. I'm still trying to figure out the time to practice not long, like at least an hour. Because my condition right now. Yeah, I did get angry. That angry and sad that my hands become like this mess, hence saturation. I was a little mad about this. But once I understood that was just gonna be a phrase of my life. And it's just differently. I have to be patient to slowing down with what I do now in life. Actually, actually started to enjoying the process of being with my baby. Because I know this one will never return. He will grow up bigger and this time we'll never return back. I can always go back to play and once he can go to daycare. My goal is not just in time to take here before to, yes. That's right. November last year, because it was just the three months, right, three months of after give birth. And then, you know, yes, before four month we are purely breastfeeding. So I don't really breast breastfeeding him. After two months, I was there pumping out so I can get some sleep. And so and my my friend who was of USA, her name is Makayla, and she was asking me, so what are you going to do when you're on the stage? Are you going to leak or something? Nope. I have. I said, I'm saying I have I think I have that figured out. So I will make sure that I come before I walk on the stage. So yes, you have sort of hot before you walk on the stage. Yeah. Yeah, because you I also have to dress like your performance dress. Right. And so yeah. I think go to time. Perfect. And cannot be too early. It cannot be too late. Yeah, because you also have to mentally prepared you're gonna do you have to perform. You have to be fully concentrate. Yeah. But then pumping is something jumping before the performance. Yes. Something that I got to figure it out. You mentioned about your teaching, you're still teaching now. Yes, I teach a lot. Yeah, I teach. So actually, I went back to teaching two weeks after I give birth. You know, it is pandemic. And it's not like I have to go somewhere. Yeah, it was online. So I spread my students to every day. So I have one hour for each student's per day. So it's not a lot work. So in fact, that's kind of like changing my how my brain works. So I it's so for me, actually teaching become a break for me. Yeah, I really enjoy teaching. That's the only time I don't have to work with baby. I don't have to work with baby. Yeah. And here I really have to, to say to my students, and the parents are so, so nice. So most of the time after New York back to normal, like meaning reopen. So I started to have private student come to my house. And the parents are either helping me carrying the baby or they will just allow me to carry my baby we're teaching. So my baby Jacob was exposed to music. So yeah, he will either sing along when I'm teaching. Yeah. Or he will just drag me my students for he is joining us most of the time. Yeah. That's so nice. Isn't it that he's such a part of it? Yeah. So I also teach in the weekend, weekends on Sunday. That's the time my husband wants so I have that day. I have that day. Just teaching Yeah, for sure. When you first had your son, did you feel like you went through a change in your identity about how you saw yourself? I think this part is very this part of me is very funny. And I don't know if other moms are like this too. After giving birth I cannot believe If I'm already on mom, I can question myself what is going on? And I cannot. Like if people are saying asking me Oh, how is the baby so your baby's fine, but I cannot. I find it really difficult for me to relate me as his mom. Yeah. Well, I have to talk to myself that I'm already a mom. Yeah. So, yes, my identity. I realize my identity changed over the months. For sure. Yeah. So I wasn't really, really aware of it. Even after I gave birth, I wasn't really aware for that. Yeah. Yeah. If you will tell me all your violinist Yes. You're a wife. Yes. But you're a mom. I was like, Let me think about it. But actually, yes. Yeah. This is a topic I like to talk to all my mom's about mom guilt. Is that something that you've experienced? Or? Or what's your thoughts about that? Yes, definitely. That frustration for me? I'm not exactly about because I I have to not been taken care of. It's just because it's because I have to learn how to sort of my What do you say that? Patients? Yeah, yeah. Patients, you know, musicians, artists are very, very emotional. They're very sensitive. We're very sensitive. So whatever. baby cries will make me really, really anxious. That's my gifts. Yeah, right. Make anxious and I find myself at the very beginning. I have very, very difficult time to actually sue him. And also calm myself down. And I will be actually crying together with. Yeah, that's the only mommy guilt. Yeah. Yeah. So well, I did my husband jumping and helping me. Wherever he crushed so much. He will just jump jumping in and take him. Yeah, yeah. Even like in the car riding like, I sometimes I can't really control my emotions when you know, anxious. That's totally normal. It happens to a lot of new moms. Oh, yeah. Well, like my husband won't help not appreciate and I had my students parents that I can talk to, and they won't give me a lot of advice because she had three three kids. Yeah, she got thing and I'm really appreciate these people in my life. Yeah, my mommy guilt is really just handling the baby. Learning. I just felt like I'm not learning that fast enough. I thought it's come natural, but actually not natural. Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah. But that's my mom. I told her this is way harder than playing a violin. Practice to protect your next moments. And you're you're actually caring about your past, past, present and future you can control sort of controlling even on the stage. You know how it's gonna go. If you practice a baby, you can't. Oh, yeah, everyday. Yeah. So that's, it's very challenging, isn't it? Yeah. Challenging. Yeah. And also, yeah, I just felt like it's having a baby has a very, very big impact in my career. Yeah. But no regrets. I'm happy this I still happy that I made a decision decision to be alone. Yeah. Yeah, like you said, it's a phase in your life and in he'll grow and change and then there'll be other things you know, As always, your violin will always be there also, I won't let my identity that's part of me, I don't want that to go. I want my children look at me in the future when they answer their own since I'm in their eyes, I'm not only their mom, I want them to see that. During the hardest time, I never give up what I love. Because rather than teaching is what I love. And making music, be able to play with people is what I love. And I want my children to see that. Even through the hardest time I have to make choice to give my life my time and attention to them. But I never give up what I love, and I always come back to it. Yeah, absolutely. And I will go get this encouragement from my wife, my mentor. His name is Philip Setzer. He's the violinist from Amazon, the famous Amazon quartet. He told me that his mom gave up her performance her career in for him to bring him up, spend all the time for the family to be a mom. But eventually, her mom came back and auditioned to kill Cleveland Symphony Orchestra and go into that orchestra and spend the rest of your life with that orchestra still be a professional Yeah, yes, he wrote this email to me he says he wants to give me some encouragement that never give up. Now that's wonderful that is so good. Hold on yeah I'm very happy and I'm also very appreciate that the people in my life my friends that I mentioned earlier, the music director of collective 366 That's new orchestra and they are my friend in life that they always told me never give up they always told me well we're gonna play again yeah I'm really really appreciate that those people who you my life wanted to make music with me. Yeah, that I never forget my identity. Absolutely. Oh, good on you. That sounds like you've got some really good people around yes fantastic. Have you got anything coming up any performances or things that you want to share with us? So a music festival coming up in May. This is organized by conservatory Lila, named Lila music conservatory and that they have Music Festival in May. And also in August there will be some masterclass happening in the same place. I don't have further concerts coming up yet because my hands addiction. But I have two concerts planned in my in my mind. One is a solo works cause that was on the fingertips. And basically I will play a lot of dance music by Bach and also some contrary pieces and collaborated with some dancers. And also there will be another concert just basically by Stravinsky some work by Stravinsky and Bach. Yeah, wonderful. With Anest let's update those informations once I have clear debt on my on my website oh good on you. That sounds great. Oh look, it's been such a pleasure chatting with you and having you little man there too. Yeah. Is very active. He wants to he already knows how to post them. Okay, by seven half. He hasn't had one taste yet. But he already can. He can already set up by himself. And he wants to pause then and just don't want to be just steel wants to move around. He wants to go ready to get very tired, but like Sometimes when I practice I just put him in a walker, or a Noona. Like the chair, and I just play for him. Yeah. Me, like, what are you doing? Yeah, most recently, last Saturday, I brought him to a piano masterclass. The professor played one phrase of Chapin. And it was so it's a it's a sad music. And he was he was so touched by the music. He was full tears in his eyes and start crying oh I'm gonna let you go now. You can have Mammootty yourself again. Oh, it was so nice to talk to you. Oh. My mom was a great example for me. Never give up. And that's the math was like I I learned I saw how that happened. Absolutely. I hope in the future, I can come back to the stage again and continue to share great music with people with everyone. I'm sure you will. I'm absolutely sure you will. We don't yet. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Edwina Masson Australian vocal loops artist S3 Ep88 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Edwina Masson is my guest this week, a musician and mum of one based on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia. Edwina was born in Brisbane and moved 5 states before she was 10 years old. She didn't have a lot of stability in her home location but her constant was the music that she listened to as a family, Paul Kelly, Led Zeppelin, The Who, Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. Edwina credits this time as the reason she gravitates towards music to cope with stress and emotions. She started composing music in year 5 on Garage Band, and began to develop a love for harmony. During high school she was music captain and sang, played clarinet and double bass. After high school she decided she was going to be a singer, much to the surprise of her family, and went on to study performing arts at university, and lectured also. Edwina describes her musical style as a vocal loops artist. She creates songs with many, many layers, using her voice as the instrument. and creating emotionally dense music which goes on a journey and often without lyrics. While Edwina was experiencing a traumatic pregnancy in 2020 and 2021 she began searching for music that would support her experiences, and couldn't find it. Edwina began to write music that she need to get though, initially only meant for her, but on realising that others could benefit from it in 2022 Edwina released the album Birth of A Mother. It's the music she wishes she had accessible to her at the time of being pregnant. Edwina has recently created the Live Loops Choir in the Noosa Hinterland, a non audition, any ability singing group to be able to create the music she loves in a live setting. If you are in the neighbourhood check it out, link below. This episode contains mentions of hyperemesis gravidarum, birth trauma, post natal depression, miscarriage and traumatic early childhood. Edwina - instagram / live loops choir / music Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Edwina throughout the episode When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. It is a pleasure to have you here from wherever you're listening around the world. My guest this week is Edwina Masson. a tweener is a musician and a mum of one based on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia. That duaner was born in Brisbane, and she moved around five states before she was 10 years old. It was these changes in location and schools that created the instability in her life. But the constant was the music that she listened to with our family. Musicians like Paul Kelly, Led Zeppelin, the WHO Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. Edwina credits this time as the reason she gravitates toward music to cope with stress and changes in emotions. She started composing music when she was in year five, using GarageBand and began to develop a love of harmony. During high school she was Music captain, and she sang play clarinet and double bass. After high school she decided she was going to be a singer, much to the surprise of her family. And she went on to study Performing Arts at uni and also became a lecturer at Duany described describes her current musical style as a vocal loops artist. She creates songs with many, many layers, sometimes up to 50, using her voice as the instrument and creating emotionally dense music, which goes on a journey and often without lyrics. While Edwina was experiencing a particularly traumatic pregnancy in 2020 and 2021, she began searching for music that would support her experiences, and she couldn't find it. So Edwina began to write music, the music that she needed to get through, initially only meant for herself, but on realizing that others could benefit from it too. In 2022, Edwina released the album, Birth of a mother, it's the music that she wishes she had accessible to her at the time of being pregnant. Dwayne has also recently created the live loops choir in the Noosa hinterland and non audition, any ability singing group to be able to perform the music she loves in a live setting. And if you're in the neighborhood, I encourage you to check it out. I've put the link in the show notes. Today's episode does get quite full on at times, just letting you know that it contains mentions of a traumatic pregnancy and birth and postnatal depression and also mentions of miscarriage. Throughout this episode, you'll hear snippets of a Dwayne his music, particularly from the album birth of a mother and I encourage you to check it out to again, the links in the show notes. It's just beautiful music and it just soothes your soul. No matter what stage you're in. Whether you are a new mother pregnant, or you've got kids that are 15 years old, it really speaks to all of us. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're gonna love this episode, and take care do doo doo doo doo doo doo doo Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Yeah, it's absolutely my pleasure. It's lovely to put a face to the sounds like I mean, I've seen you on Instagram, obviously, but to speak to you, after listening to, to your incredible music. It's really, really lovely to meet you. Oh, that's so that's so sweet. I get that. You know what, I actually get that more often than you think. Because other people listen to my music. And I don't actually, it's really interesting as a musician, like you put music out and you kind of think that, like, no one's listening to it. And then you just like, it's just for me. And then somebody's like, you're the person and I'm like, Yeah, my music sounds so deep. And then you meet me and you're like, you're a dork. Edwina. Yeah. I love it. That's awesome. Yes. So we're about to you at the moment. Where are you? What in the world are we has a really good question. We are currently on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland in Australia. And we've been here I think for about seven months now. Seven months we've been living here and it's just so beautiful. Yeah, beautiful. I am, we used to come up for a couple of years in a row, we came up to Caloundra for a family holidays. And I just loved it up there. I just loved it. We loved it so much. You went to exactly the same place two years in a row. We just loved it so much. It's like why do we need to go anywhere else? If it ain't broke? Don't fix it. We're in like the kind of like the Noosa hinterland. Oh, yeah. And it's just where it's so beautiful. It's like I spent years just like dreaming about living in like a rainforest. And we do now and it's just, oh, I look out my window every day. And I feel so lucky. So happy to be here yet. Do you have all those? I don't know what sort of birds they are. But I've never heard them because I'm from that Gambia right down south. And there's these birds like they made like a whipping with Yes. Yeah. Like the Lyrebirds. Like the Yeah. And they had like the rainforest bird. Yeah, yeah, that we do have them and you can go out on the balcony first thing in the morning, and you can hear them and it is just like, you are transported to deep rainforest when you hear those birds there. Yeah, we do have them and they are spectacular. Yeah. No, I love that I love. Yeah. And the other thing I remember there being up there was that it got it got light a lot earlier than what it does at home. And so like you'd be woken up with this beautiful bird song. And it was just like, oh my gosh, and then you'd see like, we're staying at the beach at the ocean. It was just like, why did we live where we live? What we need to do here? Yeah, it does. It's like both a blessing and a curse that the sunrise is so early, like the sunrises before five. At the moment, the sun is I can see the sun restarting, like it gets light at like 450. And like, I know that because my child wakes up at that time. So this is before the sun is even, like awakened. My child's like it's going to rise in the next 10 minutes, Mom, I'm ready for it. Like I'm just beating it up, they're ready to give it away when it comes. That's gorgeous. God, it's up to us to keep them I can see how close you are. So you're a singer, songwriter, performer? How did you first get into music? Wow, it's a great question. I grew up moving a lot. So I was born in Brisbane. And then we moved to states five times before I was 10. And yeah, and I didn't have a lot of stability and like the home that we were living in or the friends that I had. And so something that was always really constant in my life was the music that we listened to as a family. It was always like Paul Kelly and Led Zeppelin and the who and Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. And that was like such a core memory of stability and safety for me that I think that really had an impact on when I was getting older what I gravitated towards to cope with stress and to cope with emotion. And I think I was about I was about 10 And we had we just moved to Western Australia. And I remember going into year five and singing just like singing in class. And it was the first time that like a kid had told me that I had a good voice and I was like What do you mean, my family told me that I sound like a dying cat. Literally, they would say that and then I had all these kids being like, Oh, you can really sing. And then suddenly I was like oh that's the thing. Like in my mind. It was the thing that set me apart. So my Had I kind of developed a slightly unhealthy attachment to singing for a long time of like it was my entire self worth. Yeah. And I just kept singing. And then when I graduated high school, I was like to my parents, I'm going to be a singer. And like the shock and horror on their faces of oh, dear Lord, how is she gonna make this work? Because they barely knew that I was like a singer. I was always playing clarinet and double bass, but I never told them that I was a singer until the end of year 12, even though I was like Music captain sung in choirs as sung solo at school all the time. Like I just never told them. Oh, by the way, actually sing all the time. Yeah. So image in your head of this dying cat singer. They really had very little clue that I was as good as I was. Yeah. And I remember them. I remember singing at like the highest high school, entire school presentation that at the end of the year at this big old, like theater, and then hearing me really, for the first time seeing was like a 70 person choir behind me. And I remember afterwards and being like, Are you kidding? Like, what do you mean that you have been singing and being taught for like, what? Why didn't you want to tell us and it was like a whole thing of like me just not telling them that I was a singer, because I didn't want them to tell me that I sounded bad. Oh, yeah. So then I Yeah. And so then I went into performing arts university. And that was an experience and then I lectured and yeah, that was kind of how it all started for me. Yeah, right. Something that's really big for you is harmony, which is I love is I've spent so many years of my life two part singing, and I just adore it. When did you first sort of start to recognize harmony as an actual thing, and start to fall in love with it? Well, I started writing instrumental music before I ever started singing. So I was, I was in year five. And my family had just gotten like the first Apple Computer. And I remember GarageBand being on there, and it was free. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you mean I can put like, I can just make music. And I would spend hours on there just like bashing the typing keyboard as like a piano keyboard, just writing different parts and different. And that's when I started really, I had no idea what harmony was, I didn't know what intervals or anything like that was. But I remember, I listened to classical music growing up. And I had listened to such amazing artists that it was already like, clicking inside of my system, or this, this sounds good. And like this does not sound good. And so it was really very young that I started realizing that I loved harmonies, and then I sang in choir in school. And I always just had this obsession with like harmony was the tool that you could use to express emotion and not need words. And that to me when I was growing up was very important because I didn't necessarily want to talk about what I was feeling. Or there wasn't this wasn't necessarily a space for me to be able to talk about how I was feeling. And harmony was this tool that I was able to use to be like, I am feeling angry, or I'm feeling such pain or such joy and not have to actually with words, say those things. So it definitely was like my own form of therapy for many years. Yeah, that's it. I've never actually thought of it that way. But that is so true. It's like it evokes so much in you when you hear these particular, you know, chords and constructs of notes. That's really incredible. Thanks for Thanks for sharing that. So welcome. It was, honestly I remember being like, the melody, like in contemporary singers today. The thing I always talk to my students about is like, your Lyric should only be doing 50% of the work. Your melodies and harmonies that support the lyrics that you're using. should be doing. Like if you took away the lyrics does your melodies actually say anything? And that was the massive thing for me is like I spent so much time being like, How can I communicate how I feel, without ever having to say one word and harmony was such an amazing tool to use. So it was like a low key obsession of mine. Yeah, I'm pleased because you're very, you've got a very it's like an innate natural ability, which I love. I think that's awesome. Because I think sometimes you can't teach that stuff. I know you can. You can actually teach it but just to get it like I had no formal train Writing in harmony. My dad used to listen to a lot of country music. So Johnny Cash, John Java course all male, like male voices, and I have an alto voice, but that's not that low, you know? It's not John. Hello, thankfully. So yeah, I, I developed a way to sing along to the songs in the car, because I couldn't sing the tune in their, in their, in their what is their their vocal range, there's their register in that register, that's what I'm after. And I couldn't sing it up the octave because my voice was too low. So I started to sing harmony, harmony without knowing what it was just to be able to join in and sing the songs because I love the song so much. And that's just did that too. Oh, and it's like, I'd never been taught and I never knew the words for until years later when people started explaining to me or you're singing in thirds, or you're seeing in whatever is and I was like, Well, that's nice. Glad I know what that means. But I had that's cool. What I do, you know, yeah, and it's just it's worked really great because my sister and I have been together for years as a duo. And I just naturally take the harmonies because it's like, you know, it's just there in your body sort of thing and hear some people are much some people's ears are definitely more receptive and perceptive of harmony. And they find it a lot easier to hear for sure in like when I was lecturing, you could really tell the musicians whose ear was more sensitive to harmony. Yeah, it was yeah, it was something that it usually came down to the type of music that they'd listened to growing up. They were listening to music like country music, a lot of country music has a lot of harmony in it. Like particularly a lot of like, country groups. There's a whole bunch of there. It's so harmony dense in regards to like, there'll be three parts singing the melody like Yes, yep. So it is really interesting seeing how the music you grow up with hugely influences where your strength will lie if you are interested in being a musician. Yeah, that's really cool. That's really cool. The other thing I find I do find it frustrating though, because when you've got that ear and you're used to picking nights and hearing things, when you hear something that's not quite right, it really frustrates you are don't even honest to God. It's like it's a blessing and a curse being so trained in music. I honestly, I remember I went through a phase probably when I was at university, and I was studying it for literally like eight, nine hours a day, I was studying music. And it got to a point where I went definitely went through like a snobby snobby vase being like, What do you mean, you're singing flat? And it feels like, it's like, you know, the pee in the mattress? Yeah, like the old storytel. Yeah, yeah, it felt like that I would hear everything and hear something was flat, I would hear if it didn't match up, I would hear if the harmonies weren't falling. Like the same vibrato, like my ear was so trained that I for a while I actually couldn't enjoy a lot of music. Yeah, yeah. And I actually when I remember when I graduated, I actually had to take a step back and be like Edwina, why did you start singing in the first place? Because it wasn't about the academics. Yeah, it was, it was truly about how it made you feel. You just have the tools to express how you feel better now, but like, yeah, I definitely resonate with what you're saying. So I remember listening to other musicians and being like, they caught even saying, like no, I'm not. I don't think that at all now, but I definitely went through that phase. Oh, yeah. Because, like, I often think about the fact that like, if I wasn't as good as I was, I wouldn't be up there. Because I'm so judgmental on myself that, like, I used to have a habit of judging others with the same lens that I judged myself and because they would never level up to what the capabilities of myself I was like, Why do you think you should be up there? So definitely like to that. Yeah, it's it takes a takes a while to unpack it, for sure. So I understand that. Yes. And I personally had to let go of a lot of like jealousy, like, oh, how come they get to do it? I can do this. Why can I do it? And over the years, I've gotten very good at just going you know what, it's not nothing to do with you, Allison, this is this person. This is where they are in their life and their journey and you have no idea where they come from or what they're doing. And I've just gotten really good at like going that's good on them. I'm really pleased for them. That took a little bit. It's really hard as like a musician when for my personal experience when I was studying it was such a competitive environment that you couldn't help like that you weren't told that there was room enough for everybody. Yeah, space existed for everyone. So you would it was like inbuilt in you to become judgmental and to become competitive and to become this. This thing where you believe that you know if you didn't get that opportunity And then you like you were missing out on the break on the on the next opportunity. And I definitely went through that we will literally got ranked when I was at university. Yeah, we would end the top four singers would get all the opportunities. And I was lucky to always be in that top four. But I remember the, like, I remember the levels that I like, how much I work to be in that top four and how I had massive burnout at the end of studying because of it. Yeah. So it definitely like the music industry breeze you for competitiveness, and it actually takes active, unlike undoing to just allow someone to sing and not charge them. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I grew up doing a Stanford's. They used to put me in a sentence from a very young age. And I think it's the worst thing that ever happened to me, because I just think continued to go through life thinking I was being judged all the time all the time. Yep. Yep. Yep, I still work through that stuff. Yeah. And you have an expectation that whatever, whatever this person tells you must be right. Because they're the adjudicator, you know? And it took me took me years until someone said to me, Allison, are you going to let one person's opinion might like, change your opinion of yourself? You're gonna let that one person have that much control over you. And I just went? Yeah, no, that's what I've been doing since I was like, I don't know. Young Child. Yep. Like, and yeah, music is. So beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Every person will like a particular type of music and like a particular type of voice better. So it's really hard. I remember when I was lecturing, how hard it was to mark someone on the skill. Because it's like, I always knew that I had biases to the types of voices that I liked. So I had to really actively be like, Okay, if I take away my own bias, how do they technically like when we're looking at technique? How the technique because there are some vocal tones that I just love, and there are others that I am interested in. So it is a really, that's why studying music and it's so weird. It's so weird. Yeah, yeah, I have memories of like, but just before I set for the started, like the room is room, excuse me, the rumor mill would start up about who's the adjudicator? And what sort of voice Do they like? And then when we knew that they liked surprise all those hours ago, stuff, nice, you know, what we bother, you know, if you could get you down right from the start, you know, you'd go out there just thinking that they're not gonna like me, because they like sopranos, you know? Yeah. So that, that kills a little person's head. And, you know, it took me took me to I was certainly my young adulthood to actually say to myself, You know what, I don't need to do this anymore. Like, yeah, no one's making me do this anymore. Why am I doing this? I'm actually so thankful that I didn't do a lot of those things when I was that young singing was something that was so incredibly like, personal and like, sacred to me from a very young age. And I didn't have singing lessons until I got into performing arts university because of the fact that I was always like, I don't want someone else to take this, this thing that I have, but I was so young, and I recognize that I recognize. Yeah, and then when I started university, I was like, my song, my voice is the audible version of my soul, I will protect it with my life, because it meant so much to me. And I think that's the reason why I didn't want to have singing lessons in high school because I knew someone was going to come in. And like, I was just learning my voice. I was just like, in this point in time where I didn't want to compete for it. I didn't, I just knew, but then I went to university and it was like, wow, like whiplash? Oh, yeah. Suddenly coming into a highly competitive environment. Being so unlike I was on trained, but I was really passionate about it. So I was able to pick things up very quickly. And it went from being a therapy to being a sport. It was it was a real, a real change for me. And it took I wanted to quit so many times because I was like, I don't love this anymore. This isn't why I started singing. Yeah, and I remember just my lecturer who was spectacular, telling me you know, you have to think of these simply as tools that we're trying to teach you so that you can access your therapy even more specific specifically so I can sing with more nuance and I can have more vocal range to communicate how I'm feeling and I had to come back to that so many times because otherwise it just wasn't worth it. It just wasn't worth it. It was like could you you were you really protective of that because you thought people were going to try and change what you had. Well I would listen to people voices change like really change I was like, This is not you have any more or and I came later came to learn a lot about placement and how placement affects tone and, and I would hear singers mimic other singers. And I was like, well, that's no longer you. You're manipulating your placement to sound like someone else. And therefore it means that you're not actually authentically singing your voice and you're like your story. And that was something for really young age that I was like that's, that's I'm not I'm not willing to do that. Yeah, that's actually one of my pet peeves in in singers is people who manipulate their voice to sound a particular way. It just really makes me just, I just think, and then when they successful at that, and then I've got to finish back, you know, I think that's not even you. Yeah. Because, like we go through stages as a society as being told this is the voice like Christina Aguilera. Oh, my gosh, you had millions of young white children, young white females trying to sound black. Yeah, because of Christina Aguilera, Christina Aguilera had multiple vocal health issues because of her terrible technique in her lower part of her range. She can no longer belt as high as she could, because of how she treated her voice. Yeah. So it was definitely I remember being like, I want to be Christina Aguilera. Like when I was when I was really young. And then I was like, well, this hurts. Yes. Yes. Do this. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, definitely. I think about that often. And I just am thankful to the younger version of myself who was really protective of it. Because I probably wouldn't still be singing if I had been in a Stanford because I cannot compete when it comes to voice like I just I can't do it. I can't do it. I used to do piano. And I did one concert and I would never do it again. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it just, it just takes out like you said this. The soul things like it's just, I don't know. It's odd. I hate them. And I, I paint them with a passion. And I wish I mean, I guess it's taught me something. You get something out of it. But yeah, it wasn't that great. But anyway, enough of that. I know there are times when you feel like you can't do it on your own. I promise you, you're God. So tell me about your album that you released last year, which is amazing. Thank you. That was a birth of a mother. Yes. Yes. So I wrote those songs. When I was pregnant with my son in 2020s. Yeah, 2020 I, like started writing songs and 2021. And for me, they literally those songs were only ever meant for me. It was I had a really tough pregnancy. I had hyperemesis gravidarum I had every everything under the sun. When it comes to like side effects. I used to get pregnancy hives, my vocal cords was so swollen because of how much I was throwing up. Yeah, it was the like, it was so dark that period of time. And I remember being like, where is the music that is specifically for someone like myself, like, where's the music that is for someone who is terrified of becoming a mother, even though they want it so much or terrified of birth. I just needed like a, an audible birthing step. Like that's what it felt like to me, I just needed to write these songs to help me feel supported. And so that's what I did. And because I couldn't work because I couldn't. My vocal stamina was so affected by the sickness, I had a lot of time. To slowly record these songs, I listened back to the vocals, like the lead vocals on some of those songs. And I'm like, oh, man, you can hear the fatigue. Like I know my worth well enough, and I can hear the fatigue, I can hear just how hard I found that period of time in my life. And so they were just the biggest support for me. And that's why I decided after like after, I think I was pretty pregnant when I started releasing the songs, not on Spotify. And I remember other women being like, oh my gosh, thank you. Because like, I was never really into mantra music or like the, those types of things. I was like, I want it to feel contemporary enough that someone who is not spiritual at all, can listen to it and not be like what is this? Yeah. And so it was like bringing my very like specific type of writing into a space where I was like 50% of the population have mothers or mothering or parenting or birthing babies, and there was like, no music just for them. Oh my gosh, yeah. How, how? Oh, how and so I just, I just couldn't get over that. I was like, once again, there's so underrepresented as mothers in, like, I know, there were so many female mother artists, but where is the music that is actually for them. So that's why I created the music. And then last year, I was finally like, I just need these to exist in the world. I just need them to be somewhere easy, even though it doesn't make me money. Because Spotify or Spotify, but I was just like, it just has to exist somewhere. Because, like, I just got to a point where I was like, it's not just for me, it's bigger than me. It's just bigger than me. And so that's why they're on Spotify now. And I just love the album. I still go back and listen to it. I still go backwards to it. Yeah, yeah. So for for those who haven't heard it, how do you how can you describe? Because it is very unique. Yeah, the way that you put things together and you add delays? Can you just describe how you do it? Maybe a process of how you put it together? Yeah, so essentially, I'm a vocal looping artist. So I create songs 95%, just with my voice. So essentially, it is a song where every instrument that you might hear in a normal track is my voice in my music. Yeah, it's I don't know, I don't know, genre, in regards to my music, like it really is really hard to, but it definitely has influences of many different styles. And yeah, it was one of my all time favorite time to this day favorite artists and has been probably one of the biggest influences in the way that I write. But yeah, that's how I would kind of, I would say it's like a mix of ner with Gosh, I don't even know that's a really hard thing. I used to be really good at describing what I did when I wrote like, pop music. And how I'm just like, you have to hear it. Yeah, no, literally. But it is it's very vocally dense, harmonically dense music that takes you on quite the emotional journey. Hmm, absolutely. Now that's a great way of describing it. Did you make a sort of a considered decision to not include instruments in your work? Was it like, this is you're taking ownership of this yourself? Yeah, it was I, I, when I first started, like performing I had an 11 piece band, I had a big band, I had three horns, three backing vocalists, it was like the full shebang. And the first EP I ever released was, was that it was massive. And then I remember finding it so hard to ever do gigs or to ever, like it was just a really difficult thing. And I remember being like, these instruments aren't even accurately doing or playing what I exactly want in my head, because they're all bringing their own personality and their own filter to the souls. And I remember just starting to do vocal, I started vocal looping when I was 17. And I'm 29 now. So I started vocally exploring harmony and rhythm with my voice a long time ago. And I think I was 21 or 22 When I started writing, just vocal music. And it took me a really long time to accept that that's what felt most authentic for me as a musical expression. Because I was always like, this doesn't fit anywhere in music like this doesn't, it didn't fit anywhere. It was never going to end up on radio, in the radio stations that I dreamed of like I really grappled with that for a long time. Because I was like, this just isn't like anything else I've heard. And I didn't know where it would fit. So it took me a really long time to just be like, well, this is this is me like this is this is what goes on in my brain. And I just remember getting to a point where I was like this, I have to honor the fact that if I'm going to be a musician, I am going to be an authentic musician. And this is what is going to have to sound like and it might not be for everybody. But I can go back and listen to this music and know exactly how I was feeling and hear every single vocal harmony and know that It was placed there, because my brain was like it needs to be placed there. So intentional. Yeah, it is, it was really intentional. And it's like I love collaborating with others. However, I always loved being able to have a bit of a control freak, probably. I liked being able to control where everything sat and the I knew that I could sing certain things better than other singers. And when I was my song, I wanted to be able to exactly replicate my harmony, exactly replicate, like, my vibrato on certain things. So that it would wouldn't each pot Ness doesn't necessarily stand out. By itself. It kind of feels like a wall of sound. Yeah. And so I just practiced and did that and just wrote, and I look back at the first vocal looping songs that I ever recorded in my bedroom. And it's like three layers. And I remember being like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And now you now you look at my recorded files of my songs, and it's like, minimum 40 to 50 layers of stuff. Oh, wow. Because everything gets doubled, and we pull things to the left and pull things to the right. And there's parts that exact like work exactly, just as rhythmic stuff. And, and to me, I was just like, oh, this just feels so cool. To like, Okay, so my two biggest influences are Enya. And Bobby McFerrin. Yeah, right? Yep. I studied him when I was studying at university, and he had such a huge impact on me, because he's ranged was phenomenal. And his ability to move, I just had never heard anyone like that. And I went, so I dove so deep into his vocal past. And that's why I was like, Oh, my gosh, I have to try and replicate that on a looper because I couldn't sing as low as him. And that's kind of how it really like that love affair of like being able to just be voice because his was just voice you would hear him collaborate with other musicians. And he would be singing the baseline, while the double bass player was playing, like some type of melody. It was just like, holy moly, that just blew my mind. Like it was just had such a profound impact on me. So those two together is kind of how I ended up with what I do now. Bodies Yeah, a couple of things from that. I want to mention that when you talked about having to sort of have this, I'm gonna call it an existential crisis, but literally deciding between what was genuine and authentic for you to present as your music and what I think what music industry or being in the music environment tells us, our end goal is we have to be heard we have to be on radio, we have to get our break, we have to do this, you know, it's fighting against all that. Yeah, it's, it's pretty hardcore, I really had a hard time with it. I, when I go back on my own catalogue of music, you literally see the evolution of that crisis of me starting to write with that 11 piece band and then moving into one like almost electronic music. And that was the moment where I was like, you've gotten too far off, like you've gone too far away from I was singing lead vocals on like, EDM tracks, like, like club bangers. Yeah. And I was like, you have gone so far away from where you're meant to be. And because I had health issues, I remember thinking to myself, you only can sing a certain amount of hours a day, you only have the energy to do so much creation, if you're going to do it. It needs to be something that you will love. And it needs to be something that makes you feel like truly seen and truly heard. And that was something I was so passionate about is is what I'm putting out into the world. Is that Is that me? Is that me? And the more that I practice, and that's why I always say to people, you know, your first thing doesn't have to be this thing that gets you your followers that gets your big break, whatever that means to you. Like just start because I look back and I'm like, I'm so happy I recorded that music and released it because that you can literally see the evolution of myself as an artist and trying to work hard to get to a place where the music I'm releasing most accurately reflects my internal state. And I remember when I finally got there it just like that was the vocal loop. It was just like a clip. Yeah, and it was just like, Ah, this is it. Like this is me. This is all the everything I hear in my head. I can finally create something that like that everyone else can listen to. Because even when I was with the 11 piece band, I'd be hearing so much more in my mind that was never going to be able to be played by another instrument. And other singers would were having a trouble hearing the harmonies or I couldn't have 17 singers on stage with me. So I just couldn't do that it was just, I couldn't get paid any money doing that, like I just there was no, there was no money. So if it was just me on stage with my Looper one, I would actually make money. And two, I was able to have ultimate freedom and ultimate control. Yeah, and not have to worry about someone else keeping up with me. And it was just as like, oh, that's what it felt like, it felt like such a big sigh of relief. That's what it definitely felt like, yeah, I can relate to that on a slightly different level. But same sort of thing. I do have control issues. And my sisters listening should be nodding your head right now. Because I, as I'm gonna say, I hear things, and I know how I want it to sound. And I'm getting better. I mean, I think I've, since I've totally got over it, but I don't have to do at all. Like, it doesn't have to be me. But when I spent 20 years singing in a vocal group, and towards the end, it was just, it had gone from this massive choir to like we would I was involved in like the Committee stage of things. And we, we turned it into four or five, sort of niche groups. So I was in this, this group of there were six of us. And we're, we're doing part singing. And I guess every group is going to have a leader. And it wasn't me, which was fine, because I didn't want to lead but I wanted to have my ideas heard. And I wanted to be able to say, actually, can we do it like this? Or can we try it at this tempo or whatever. But the personality clashes made it really hard to do that. So I just went, I'm not doing this anymore. And I didn't do any anything except for I turned myself into a soloist and just got mine backings got all my own gear just made it possible that I didn't have to organize rehearsals with people, I could do everything I wanted. So I basically just went, nah, this this is too much for my head anymore. And around that time. You know, my, my first son was gonna say he was about seven. Were thinking about having another one. And I was like, No, this is just too much. And so I just brought it all the way back to me and then gradually added my sister back in, because we could communicate and and do things together. But it's I don't know, you just get to that moment where you just go, This isn't me anymore. Yeah. And I think it's like, you have to give yourself permission to be okay with that. Like, I remember accepting that my music will may not live in the spaces that we are told music should live in. I remember being like, you know what, it's okay, if it doesn't end up on this radio, because I'm not the type of person that listens to the radio like that. Anyway, like, I had to really get so clear on what if I was to be a musician my whole life? If I came at the end of it, what do I want to feel like I have done for myself? And am I proud of where my music has existed? And when am I creating music that actually helps people and makes people feel things? Or am I writing music for a record label? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I really came back to like, oh, I need this is I came back to that little like 10 year old girl who wrote music because it was therapy was is what I always came back to. I was like, I want to be able to look back on to her. And be like, I I kept, I kept going with that I using was first and foremost an emotional expression for me. And anyone who gets to enjoy it. It's like, you're welcome. Like, I write, I write for me, I sing for me, I perform for me. And it just happened to be the the moment I found the most authentic expression of myself at the moment where people were like that was that was a really interesting moments like when I I don't know it doesn't happen for everybody. But for me personally, it was like I just had this perfect combination of like, sound like the sound that I was producing people were looking for. Yeah, and I'm so thankful for that. But in the end, even if I didn't have that I can listen to my music and be proud that I did it for myself. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The way you're listening to the odd thing. You talked about being pregnant. How wild is your little boy here? He is to in May. So yeah, he's a wild. I was gonna say fun times. My gosh, my child has been In a wild since the moment he was conceived, like home I gosh, I could not prepare myself at all for that journey like it was. It has been the baptism of fire over and over again with my beautiful beautiful son. He's just so wild. Oh man. Yeah, he's Yeah, it's been big. It's been a big, big journey from being sick. My whole pregnancy. He went to 42 weeks. Yeah. Oh, yeah, he was coming out. No, he was very happy. And I was in severe pain, like a my body it was just like, well, we're gonna, we're gonna break now. We're done. And then birth going sideways. In regards to Yeah, it didn't go to plan. And then our postpartum with Fergus was honestly I didn't think between pote like pregnancy and birth, I thought they were going to be the two hardest experience, but it was our postpartum. It was like a first eight months with Fergus was the just the worst time in our lives easily. So definitely, I felt like I had what I suppose people call like ego deaths. I just felt like I died over and over and over becoming a mother. It was just so your identity was changing so much. And yeah, because I barely could sing when I was pregnant. And then after I gave birth, my plan was to go back to work back to being an artist at like three months postpartum. And then I had to have an emergency cesarean for our for birth, after a home tried home birth for 24 hours. And then we gave birth to Fergus and Fergus was a incredibly distressed child, he had so much stress in his body. So we spent the first almost year of his life just supporting him like he would scream and cry for about nine hours a day. It was we couldn't leave the house. He never was able to go into a carrier because he hated any type of pressure on his restriction on his body. We couldn't put him in a pram until he was six months old, seven months old. And still to this day, he doesn't doesn't like being a pram and then he started walking at eight months started crawling at four months. Yeah, he was we we had the hardest time no one could like look after him for the first nine months of his life because he would he just had he had a lot of trauma in his body. He came out holding his neck up screaming bloody murder. Well, he could take a turn his head from birth like he was never a floppy head, baby Cheevers Yeah, he used to he never he hated sit like I have forgotten so much. We've definitely blacked out a lot. But he hated sitting from the moment he was born. He was like 10 days old and he was his legs were straight and they wouldn't he just wouldn't sit. Yeah. He had just so much tension in his body. So we had to do a lot of work with him to help him basically unwind his nervous system and that involved a lot of like, trauma for us parents of listening, being with him as he expressed his emotions and we would sit with him. And he was like we knew he was fed in we we'd gone every Western medicine route to see if there was anything wrong. I say that in inverted commas wrong with him. Yeah. And then we found a way of parenting. Yeah, that was the game changer. We worked with like a birth trauma aware parenting specialist, and she changed our life. It was yeah, it was fantastic. But Ferg was a really, really intense child. And for the first year and he still to this day is massive feelings. So I didn't sing for a year for the first year of Fergus his life I didn't didn't touch my Looper at all. And it was the worst time of my life. Yeah, yeah. Is it's literally your that identity that part of you is just disappeared. Yeah, and I genuinely thought I was never going to sing again. Like I really thought that this was over because, like fit I couldn't sing with Fergus because Fergus just hate like he just couldn't. He wouldn't sit like he couldn't be still. He wasn't just the baby you can put in a bouncer like ever. I couldn't just put him in a carrier when he wouldn't sleep. He was such a light sleeper for the first year and a half of his life. So I couldn't sing like I could never leave the bedroom and sing. So he was honestly he was like 16 months the first time I pulled out my looper. Yeah, right, since before giving birth. But I had honestly thought, hey, and my voice was so wrecked because my body was so exhausted. That I had such limited vocal range, my muscles were just shot to pieces. And I just have such deep set I have so sad. Like, I remember being so sad about it. Like I was just like this has been my life for a decade. And then some I would I had so much anger because I would watch other musicians who were mothers be able to balance both. Like they were able to take their children to their shows their child was able to fall asleep on their body as they practiced, I would watch them record music with their kids in the room. And I had a baby that was so angry. Just such an angry and struggling child that I couldn't we couldn't do anything like our life didn't even look remotely like it had before giving birth and so we really, we really struggled and we were in lockdown. And we had no family man. And that's the thing the thing that you had always gone to to work through stuff with your music that wasn't accessible tea. Nope. So I pretty iced I had, I did suffer from like, postnatal depression. Because I had no I had nothing no, not only because the pregnancy was traumatic, the birth was traumatic and our postpartum was just the worst thing in the world. But also because I just had no outlet like I just had the tools that I would always use to express how I was feeling I didn't have that anymore. And it was just it was such a dark time. Oh my gosh, it was so dark. Which is the it was I would wear out over here being like we're one and done because the idea of going through that again is just yeah, we couldn't we couldn't even fathom it. It's just now that focus is almost two is the first time in years that we've been like oh, hello like to my husband. Hi. I haven't. I haven't seen you for a while. I haven't seen you for a while like he slept on the couch for a whole year. It was just Yeah, it was very hard. So I remember being him being focus being 16 months old and finally dusting like dusting off my looper and being like Oh, hello old friend. Yeah, Joy Joy choice to see these moments to catch up above God it's up to us to give them that's got me I nearly started bawling then. Oh, man. That's tough that hell yeah. How did you get through it? Literally. How did you get through it? It was it was the it was the toughest thing I have honestly ever been through. I don't even know cam has my husband has pretty well blacked out the first four or five months of focus his life. Yeah, really can't remember it. Because we were in straight survival mode. Like we couldn't leave the house like I we couldn't even walk up the street without various catatonic Lee screaming. And we used to sit on a bouncing ball for hours just to her to try and keep him like, that's when we were we didn't understand birth trauma or nervous system issues. And we just It was exhausting. And I, I don't even know how we made it through. We just were like, we just have to. It was like the mantra of survive the day, survive the day survive the day. And it felt like we and it's still to this day. It's a lot easier now. But it honestly felt like we never got a break of like Fergus was then he went from being a really distressed, massive feelings child to suddenly like, crawling so early, and then walking so early. Yeah. And so it was just like, we went from one thing to the next thing. And he was such an angry, frustrated kid because he wanted to do everything on top of like, Oh, I've got so much anger and like so much feelings and you need to and we could never pacify him. Like if we even if we tried. Even if we tried. He was like, No, you will hear me. Yeah, we used to just sit there with him. And we listened. And we listened to him. And it was like, I'm glad I took videos of it because I remember like, it was so intense. And you'd watch his little nervous system unwind. And I remember thinking to myself, I was like, Okay, we're probably only going to do this once because of this, like it's going to get better. And I and that's when I started reaching out on Instagram and I found other mothers who had gone through a very had very similar babies to Fergus Yeah. And because everybody around me all of the friends that I had that had been having babies had were experiencing nothing like we were like it was just and that was made it so hard. Because the we didn't even know a baby like Fergus was possible. Because we never seen anything like him in regards to his intensity and he his stress and his body and he never sat. He was always twitching. And oh my gosh. And so we really it was just, it was survived the day like I cried a lot at nighttime. Like I cried, I cried the first year of his life. That was the only way and we went into therapy. I started going and seeing a therapist because we were doing so much listening to Fergus his feelings that we just had to get that extra support. And we didn't have family support at all. So it was just kind of like we Yeah, it was dark. Oh my gosh, it was so dark. It's just started even though Oh, man. Yeah, it was it was definitely hard. And I remember the first time I met in person, another mother who had a baby like Fergus, and I just cried to just almost a relief like it was just me it was because I only met her in the last like two months because she lives over here. And she her experience, she gave birth to her child three days after Fergus and her child, her birth mirrored our birth and their her baby mirrored Fergus, and they might turned out that Kim and her husband had actually met each other through and aware parenting men's group online. And they so it was like, just meeting someone else who could relate to so many aspects of our parenting experience was just like, incredibly healing. And I didn't know that I needed that healing before until I met her in the flesh. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, there's someone who truly understands. Yeah, yeah. And that's thing like when you said before about, sorry, I've just realized that my camera's frozen up, but I am still here. In that position, look like or it's fun. Yeah, like the people around you that have having babies that are not experiencing what Vegas is experiencing. It'd be so easy for them to place judgment on your parenting as a reason why your baby's struggling and that it would that would be tremendously unhelpful and unkind. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I was pretty I was very lucky that the everyone around me knew that what we were going through was really different to theirs and that we were doing everything I like the everything we did to support Fergus, and then I came off with first we were like, it might it was a tongue tie. So we had his tongue tie snipped, and then we took him to osteo, cranial sacral therapy, physio, Cairo, naturopath, I came off basically all foods other than roast vegetables and chicken for four or five months, I have lunch and dinner. I used to give him a naturopathic tonic to try and help we thought it was might be a stomach. Everything, I changed the way that I was breastfeeding to try and help Oh my gosh, we went we did. We knew we knew that we were doing everything possible, like within, like, anything possible to try to help him. Yeah. Until we got to a point where we were like it, none of that it's his stress, like is so much you would look at his body. And you could tell that his nervous system was so wired. And I felt so much guilt in my body for that because I was like, he became like that when he was in my womb. That was definitely the the story that I told myself for a really long time. So I definitely think that I punished myself for that. And I took on a lot more of the listening to feelings and my husband because I was like, I did this. I have to undo it. Yeah, right. Was there a point where that became, you realized that that wasn't the truth? Um, I think over time, I just was like, even if it was me, what's done is done. Like I couldn't like I couldn't go back and change my pregnancy. Also, I was like, Yeah, I was incredibly stressed. We were, it was a pandemic. There was stuff that was happening within my family on the other side of the country that I could never, I couldn't go and be with them. We were told when we were pregnant, that Forbus was going to have Down syndrome. Like our pregnancy was really stressful. Yeah. And we'd also miscarried before Fergus, and so I was really stressed. Yeah, yeah. So even if, even if, like, there's certainly so many things that I probably could have done differently, but I just got to a point where I was like, I'm doing everything within my ability now to support his nervous system so that it can relax. I can't like I can't keep beating myself up for what the experience was for him because he's thriving now. Like I was. I was like Kim and I sacrificed a lot of ourselves and our relationship in that first year for Fergus to be How he is now. Yep. And I often think to myself, I can't even imagine the type of child that he would be now, if we hadn't supported him so much releasing the tension that he had in his body then. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What does your music look like now your music practice now that Fergus is a little older? Yeah. So he goes to date a family daycare two days a week. And so that's pretty much when I get to do anything outside of mothering. Because he is a full on child, I can't just set my Looper up. And when he's around this, he was just honestly, and it would be you'd set it up so that you could have fun with your child. Yeah. Yeah. So I Tuesdays and Wednesdays are the days that I can actually create music. And that's the days that I do all of my art and all of my work. And that's really it. Like, I sometimes do it in the evenings, after he goes to bed, because our My office is down the other end of the house, but I'm so tired. By the end of the day, he he wakes up between four and 430. Every single, every single morning, and he's ready to go. He's so turbo. Yeah, he's so turbo, that by the end of the day, you are us. You just you just absolutely exhausted. So I really, I just look forward to Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and I'm like, this morning, I was like, okay, I can actually like do all the things that it's hard. And the thing that I have struggled with the most is the fact that I used to spend my entire week. If I had any creative idea, I could write that in there, stick with it, and create and that was just, oh my gosh, it was so hard for me to have to, like lock in key ideas and be like later, later, later, later, because I was that person that was like, I'd have an idea in the morning and it would be recorded in the evening. Yeah, yeah. So that's been something the the amount of creativity that I am able to do is significantly less but because I think I went from so much to nothing. I two days a week feels like absolute heaven. I'm like, take it I'll take it oh my god one hour fantastic. Like cam can take focus out for like for an afternoon on the weekend. And I just get to stay home and do like anything to do with my art and I feel like a different woman. Yes. And so it's been like hard fought to get to this and I'm I think I'm like very grateful. I'm really quick at doing stuff now. Like even quicker than I was before. Because I go okay, you have four hours and you have to get all this done. Go like yes, like I don't I don't go with this work. I trust the idea. Trust the idea. And that's been the so it's definitely gotten me really like onto it. But right now it's two days a week that I have to do everything it's art is Chris's son so what sort of things are inspiring you at the moment with your, with your music? What are you sort of creating about, I guess, I am definitely processing my postpartum period through my music at the moment. I am writing songs that allow me to make sense of the experience that we had. Because we are kind of through that dark tunnel of that first really, almost two years of his life. I'm at a point where I'm like, Okay, I need to process what we what we went through, like I really need to, because my body still shakes when I talk about it. Like yeah, my body goes into like a trauma response when when we talk about that whole experience that we had, and I recognized that for me like therapy was great. But it didn't get everything that I needed out of my system. And so right now I'm the music that I'm recording for myself is definitely postpartum music that I'm hoping one day I can release because I know that there are other mothers that really need music that like validate is the experience that they're having? Absolutely. So that's the myself right now. That's the music I'm writing. But I'm also writing, actually, I'm running choir music. Because I have started a choir. Yes, I was gonna ask you about that. Yeah, well, I have been, I think most singers that love the voice fantasize about either singing in a choir or having their own choir. And I was like, I had been thinking about it for years. I was like, three years ago, it's so great to have a choir because I used to lecture. And one of the classes that I lectured in was creative arranging and voice and we do a lot of choir stuff in that. And I was always, like, I'd love to be able to transpose some of the music that I write into acquire setting, to be a hero at like, live and just to be able to have other people get the opportunity to experience singing my, my arrangements, and I was like, Okay, so we're not in lockdown anymore. I'm not in Margaret River anymore. I don't have a newborn baby anymore. Like, I think the time is now. And I was like, um, I'll probably just like, run it from my house, maybe like 10 people, that'd be great. And then I was like, I don't have space to 10 cars. And so then I had a friend that I've met who has a shop in this particular pavilion and your Monday. She was like, why don't you hold it in the pavilion? And I was like, Oh, my gosh, that mean that can hold more than 10 people? I don't know. And then I, and then I was like, Okay, maybe I'll just make the first choir session free so that people can come and have an idea about like, what is the type of music that I would create, and we were like, Let's hope for 20. And then I put the signup form, we had 70 people, oh, good for you. And I and my mind was blown, my mind was blown. I was like, oh, people want to sing. And I think the thing that I can recognize is that a lot of choirs around for an older demographic. And also, a lot of the music that they're singing isn't, if you haven't sung before, or if you haven't done in a while, it's can be quite daunting for a lot of people. And so my type of music that I write is, it's pretty repetitive, it's looping. So the parts once they have them, is a very easy for them. And I wanted it to be like focused on your part. And it might not be hard. But I want you to be able to understand how it fits within the context of the whole song, so that you can actually listen to all of the other parts going on. Yeah, and I suppose after being isolated for so long, I was just desperate to create something that allowed me to be with other people in a creative setting. Yeah. So that's kind of we had our first rehearsal on Sunday. And I think there was like 4045 people came, which was just wow, that was just amazing. And damn, they could sing. I was I went into it being like, I went into being like, I don't know, like, we'll see what level they're at. And they picked up parts so fast. I was like, Okay, I now know what type of choir I'm writing for. Yeah, and so it's just like, kind of like a dream, it's the first time that I'll be able to actually make money since becoming a mum. Because I have not really been able to work because of Fergus. And then we moved across the country. And so this is like really a really exciting and fulfilling way to actually make some kind of income for myself, as well, which is just like a added bonus, to be honest. Yes. Yeah. I gotta admit, when I when I saw that your Instagram reel that you created, you're working through that process of, do you think the terms right now and then you can tell us like, Oh, my God, I want to do that. Because it's like, no one does that everyone wants to sing, like, just crap songs, and, you know, versions of pop songs. It's like, getting back to what music is, you know, at its essence. Yeah, I had an experience years and years ago. Because through our, our vocal group, we'd get like, we go to places and learn things. And people come and visit and teach us things. And this guy just broke it all down one day said, he said, we're not going to sing anything, that we're not going to sing things with words, we're not going to, you're not gonna know this song. There's no structure to it. He didn't even give us sheet music. So straightaway, people are freaking out because this is not what we do. He gave us a chord and he just said, Pick a night in this court. And then he'd go over, like we had to hold it for a long time. So it was good way to practice our, you know, control vocal, and listen to the agility X to you. When are they going to breathe, you have to not breathe at the same time, all this sort of stuff that was held, it's good, it's good things there. But then it just go over to one part and it just say, just move your note. And so people are looking at each other like, oh, how do I move my note? What do I do? Where do I put it? I don't know what to do. And he's like, just trust yourself. Just just Just move your note. And so then people would just move their note. And then he'd come up to another group and just say, now you move on. And it was just the most freeing experience. And I still couldn't let as I'm telling you, I can see it in my head, it was so wonderful. I was like, we don't need all these bells and whistles and all this stuff that goes with it. You know, it's just getting back to the essence of it. And it was amazing. And I think the thing that I recognize is that people feel so intimidated by singing, for so intimidated by singing, because, you know, the music that you hear on the radio are either very auto tuned or from trained singers. And so there aren't many spaces that exist for them to have the opportunity to actually sing. And most people can hold a note, like, even those that believe they're tone deaf, it's just the muscle of super underdeveloped, so the more you use it, the better your ear and vocal muscle gets. Yeah. And I was just like, I want people to have the opportunity to sing something that's not a radio song, that where that you're expressing an emotion, because you're part of a whole, like really having that idea that you are a really important piece of this puzzle. And it might not be a hard part. But you actually have the opportunity to develop your ears and understand how your part is, like the context of it. Yeah, where you fit in and where we fit in. You know how important your party is like, yeah, I remember at one point being in was doing an SSA arrangement, and I was first our show, and we were literally a drone. We had a drone, honestly, one of the most important ones. Yeah, God. Yes. And I said that all the time. I say that all the time. I'm like, the Jerome note is literally one of the most important notes in almost every arrangement that I do, because of how all the other notes are affected by that one note. It's like the the level of tension that you can create from a moving parts and how that one note actually influences. Yeah, yeah, I, there was a group on Sunday that for one song, their note was a drone note and I was like, I want you to take this opportunity to feel what this drone note actually is here to make you feel like why is that drone note here? Like if without it? What are the other parts sound like? Yeah, yeah, it's and I, you almost as if you listen to my music, there's almost always a drone note in the songs. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's so important. It is so important. And then, years later, obviously, years and years and years later, my son now plays the bagpipes. And when you hear it, when you hear those drones fire up, they're like, Yeah, I get this, like, they're the heart and soul. Like they're the bits that you know, the hold everything together. And I always hated how people, they played, like these jokes on our toes like this, the joke like the sopranos says to the alto, the melody and they go, Oh, I don't get it. And they're like, Yeah, course you don't get it, like you never get the tune. But it's like, the tune is the most boring part of Yeah, it's always underneath that just drives it. Well, it's like that's the when I think about harmony, it's like, it's really easy for most singers to sing a third above. The third below is the like the harmony that creates like the most important texture, but it's also the hardest for someone's ear to actually be able to hear. So it's like something that I always work on. It's like the you've got your melody and you've got your Harmony above, but that harmony below is what gives like the rich texture of your sound. So low voices are just like, so important to me, because of the impact that they have on a harmony. Because it's like I when I think of harmonies, I think of like, a really important balance. And if you have too many harmonies that sit higher in a register, your your balance is like off put and suddenly, the top harmonies are starting to really ping out rather than it being like a really perfect balance. Yeah, and I mean, the only reason I am so obsessive over those because I've spent so much time listening to harmony, and so much time listening to how harmony impacts me emotionally. And when I go into a song, I'm always like, how do I want people to feel when they hear this and being able to pick notes that I know will elicit those emotions, but that just comes with like, a lot of a lot of time. Yeah, I think a real interest in in being able to express some like something audibly with no words. It's also like it's when, when it doesn't have words, people's minds don't have to think so much. Because what I often find is people who aren't necessarily singers, they get really stressed about having to remember words if you're not using a book. And what I found is with singers that aren't, you know, choir singers, like haven't had that type of training, their head will be so down in their book trying to remember their part that they're actually missing half What's the point of singing with other people? Yeah, that's it, it becomes this insular thing that you're just focusing on yourself. Yeah, yeah. And so that's just why I do it's like, quite simply, it's for them to be up at around each other. Yeah. My God My says, the memory of my legs. When you said before, about listening to each other, I feel like that is the most underrated part of part seeing people get so focused on themselves, like, and you said about heads in books. But I could, I could literally for years seeing other people's parts, because you spent so much time working out where you fit in, and perhaps why you fit in to this where you see as part of his whole group, it's so important, and I think it teaches you so much about, like life skills, you know, listening to each other. When When do you need to back off? When is it, you know, time for you to come forward? And you're blending and listening to those around you like that? When I said before about when you take your breath like, well, we're not good at listening as a society. Yeah, absolutely. It's when like, it's really easy to see that we're not very good at listening to others, because we're always thinking about the thing that we're going to say next. And so it's like, singing in a group l gives you the opportunity to, and it kind of forces you to have to listen to others. And it's like, it's why I make it's why I do things really specifically of not having like books to read from and making parts simple and repetitive. Because I want to give people the opportunity to work on their listening skills. Because then they just have that like ability to be like, Oh, I could switch parts I could. Like I can hear their part. If someone next to me is struggling to hear their part. I can help them find their part. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it definitely definitely oh my gosh, I remember singing in choirs, and your head would be down. And you'd just be following the words. And I just be following the music writing on the page. And I wouldn't be caring if I was singing too loud. Like that's the other thing is like, yeah, everyone wants to be the soloist. Yeah, that's like you go okay, but you're part of a hole. Which means if you can't hear the Alto or you can't hear the sopranos, then you're already singing too loud. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it teaches you so much doesn't Yeah, I think it's such a beautiful opportunity. Like, I love the spaces that choirs can, like the right type of wires can create. Put that caveat in there? That's so exciting. I'm so pleased you're doing that. I think it's a wonderful expansion of your, you know, sharing your, say your wave of music, but it's like, yeah, it can't you know what I mean? It kind of like no, I do. It's like my, the way that I write like I'm giving it. And the thing that I was told over and over on Sunday was it's like, people were really looking forward to having an opportunity to sing the type of music that I write. Yes. And I was like, oh, yeah, well, that's that that meant so much to me, because it's like, as we've said, I've spent so long worrying that the type of music that I wrote wasn't didn't fit anywhere. And then to have people be like, Oh, I've seen these parts at home, or I listened. Yes. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, absolutely. I sing. I sing these harmonies by myself in the shower. I'm like, You kidding me? Like, I yeah, it's just been such a beautiful validation of what I have chosen to be as an artist. Yes, absolutely. And I would love to be able to, like, I would want to create a choir in Sunshine Coast, but I want to take like a live loops workshop and be able to take what I do to a day long workshop somewhere in other places that because other people would love the opportunity to sing these types of arrangements. Yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, it is really it's a really exciting project. And I'm just like, feel so fulfilled, but it feels really like in alignment with what I do. Yeah. And I think that's what I've been trying to find is like, I don't want to teach people singing how to sing well, like I don't have no interest in teaching technique. I'm like, there are so many singing teachers out there. Like I want to create spaces where people get to experience harmony, because harmony has had such a profound impact on me. And my ability to cope with life. Yeah. Oh, that's why I'm so pleased for you. Honestly, it's just sounds crisp, I can be my heart swell. You know, it's just wonderful. I really I'm really, really pleased for you. And I'm very jealous that I'm not there. I'm I just have to come down the coast. Do you come down a long way? Right to the bottom of the mainland. Sorry, just on that if there's payment listening that are in your neck of the woods So what's the best way for them to get in touch if they're interested in in a bit more, we will be social media. So my instagram handle is the dot Edwina dot Masson, Ma, Double S O n. That's where pretty much everything that I do everything that I offer, all the links to all of my work is that's kind of where I play at the moment. So that would be that that would be the spot and just message me or email me any, like, beautiful girl up? I'm pretty, I'm pretty easy to contact. That's awesome. Yep. So we're just about to start term one. So it's going to run in terms, and at the end of each term, we're going to have like a little concert. And so that's kind of where my focus is at creatively focuses. Yeah, one thing at a time choir, establish the choir. Yeah. And on that, I think it is important for people to have a goal to be to perform, because I've been at times in a group where you don't have any, you're just singing, it's like, that's lovely. We love it. But to be able to then actually put yourself up there is like a whole new kettle of fish, you know, for people to get to witness the work that they've put in, you know, I mean, I'm just like, I really believe. Yeah, and because then it gives other people permission to do the same thing. It's like, this isn't a bunch of people that have grown up to having singing, training or singing in choirs, but then when you see them sing together as a group, and they can see how they've improved from the start of the term to the end of the term. Because it's important for me to be able to teach them technique and teach them how to braid properly and teach them how to warm their voice up. It's, they would be remiss of me to like, just get them singing and not care about their vocal health. Yeah. I even heard people saying at choir, they could hear the difference in their voice from the start of that two hours to the end of the two hours, because of the muscle, like because of them actually using that muscle. Yeah. And it's like, I want to give people the opportunity one to hear the work that these people have been putting in, but to then maybe even try it themselves. Absolutely. And see that it's actually it's not this way out scary thing that's only accessible to people who've been, you know, tracing. elite group of people. Yeah, that's how it definitely can feel. Yes, yeah. And so and then when you give people the opportunity to actually sing with other people, you realize that most people can sing everybody has a voice, like, Yeah, everybody has a voice. Yeah, there's people that tell me they can't see I'm like, you just don't know how to use your instrument. Literally. That's me, you know, every muscle a thing in your body that we all have, you know, it's just like some people are born with the ability to run faster than others before they've ever been trained. And then they choose because they have, they're better at that party, that muscle is more developed, then they might choose to become a runner. Some people's vocal cords, or their ears are born more developed with more of an aptitude for music. But it just because the starting point is different doesn't mean you don't have the ability to work to be as good or whatever, it's just a muscle a muscle that can be stressing it literally and you learn that that's really obvious when when you've been a singer for a while, and you get some training and you go Holy shit, I can do this as well. I didn't know that, you know? Yeah, it's like I don't sound like I sound like I did when I was 15 You know what I mean? Like I had a good voice when I was 15. But I sound nothing like I did then because I've had training so I've just worked on the muscle and the more you do it, the more flexibility the muscle has and the more agility it has. And yeah, so I definitely believe in like just give it a shot and I want to create spaces that give the people the the opportunity to safely do that. Yeah, no, I'm good on Yeah, that's it's so inspiring. I'm really pleased for you and I'm gonna follow the journey along on your Instagram I'm really really pleased for you that's wonderful too chatting with you it's been lovely. I feel energized and light and bubbly. Now I feel like I need to go record something for how Yeah, that's what I'm gonna be doing I would be like, like, peace out. I'll get my recording studio open. Yeah, thank you so much for having me these I always value having a space opera like opportunity to share my journey and to share my story with others because I I know that my experience and what I do can hopefully make other people feel less alone. And and so I I am very thankful to to you for having a space or Thank you. Thank you and I'm frozen still, but I'm sorry. No. I know I like you face has been frozen in some great position. It's hilarious, isn't it? Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review. Following or subscribing to the pod Fast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom ee the day Hi mean I know lives for was I must was five okay I will see you God

Season 1 Special Season 1 recap Special Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts A look back at my guests during Season 1 and a reflection on the origins of the podcast. The seeds for this podcast were sown early in 2021 when I had a lot of time on my hands, and more than the usual number of children in my home. I was finding it really challenging to create the ideal space which I needed to be able to make my music. Realising that I needed a little bit of a shift in my perceptions, and perhaps a little help, I decided to reach out to an artistic mum who was a friend of mine and find out just how she was doing it. From them I thought, I wonder if other mums would like to hear how other mums are doing it ! Thus the podcast was born. I have thoroughly enjoyed my chats with creative mum, and a few dads too, over the course of these past 6 months. I have found it incredibly interesting and insightful, having learned so many new things about topics that I would never have learned about, and meeting some amazing people too. And I have managed to change my perception and shift my thinking on a number of issues, and I hope this has been the same for you. Here’s a little wrap up of some of my favourite quotes from the episodes which made up Season 1, 2021 I hope you enjoy. Connect with the podcast here https://www.instagram.com/artofbeingamum_podcast/ Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to this special episode of The Art of Being a mom, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make that art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia, I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. The seeds for this podcast was sown early in 2021. When I had a lot of time on my hands, and more than the usual number of children in my home, I was finding it really challenging to create the ideal space which I needed to be able to make my music. Realizing that I needed a little bit of a shift in my perceptions, and perhaps a little help, I decided to reach out to an artistic mom who was a friend of mine, and find out just how she was doing it. And from then I thought, I wonder if other mums would like to hear how they're doing it. And also what other mums are doing. Thus, the podcast was born. I have thoroughly enjoyed my chats with creative mums, and a few dads too. Over the course of these past six months, I have found it incredibly interesting and insightful, having learned so many new things, about topics that I would never have learned about, and meeting some amazing people too. And I have managed to change my perceptions, and shift my thinking on a number of issues. And I hope this has been the same for you. Here's a little wrap up of some of my favorite quotes from the episodes that made up season 120 21 I hope you enjoy. What's interesting to me with hindsight, perhaps is that we'd hit this sort of point where our mothers had been the first generation of the second wave feminists. And so we'd been told a lot about what our expectations for our life could be, you know, what, that we could have it all, you know, all of those messages that that we were getting, and the sense of freedom and ambition that we all have, and should have. And then suddenly we have children and realize how compromised that can be. And that that is an age old problem and not really an easy problem to solve. So feminism or for you know, no matter how liberated you are. So the fact is we we love our children, and we want to be there for them. And our children love us and I desperately attached to us. And therefore finding space and time for something that we want to do for ourselves is incredibly difficult. Yeah, I don't know, I just it wasn't for me, not the newborn thing. I've loved their ages now, but would literally prefer to walk the depths of hell than have a newborn again. I'm not even kidding. Yeah, you can. I'd also think it's part of modeling, modeling behaviors around the things that you're passionate about. I think it's good if they can see that. Those things are priorities in our lives, that don't take away from their experiences. But in addition to that, it shows them how to care for that part of their life, the artists that they are. So yeah, I think it's important that the kids see that and see how that can happen if I really, really had felt that guilty, when I stopped doing what I was doing, deep down, I knew that what I was doing was giving me purpose and lining me up from within. And you know that old cliche making me a better mother. Deep down, I know that whenever things whenever I had a right to feel guilty whenever it really was affecting my children. I changed I let go of it. I moved away from it, I let it go every single time. So I kind of feel like you know I need with the time that I've got especially now I'm working full time. I need to be spending more time with my children now while they're young. Making sure I have that connection. But my husband always you know, he's really good. He'll go away. They love you. You know, they really love you. Remember when you weren't feeling well, and they were all worried about you. You know, they really love you don't worry. So my husband tries to sort of, you know, say no, don't worry, don't stress ratio are you here ratio me? Yeah Facebook keeps reminded me of my what my life used to be before Saturday nights at shadows or little adventures I used to do back in the day you know is a total lifetime ago for me. Yeah, and I guess when you do become a mom, you have to let go of that life. Yeah. You your your life comes second to your kids law. Development and their their health and well being is above above yours Yeah. But you do have to keep it leveled enough that you are your best self where you're at can't be can't be distant. You can't be unwell. You've got to be that for therefore them which I guess I've learned from the past that are needed for my kids first to get out of that for them. Yeah. Have you feel that mum guilt? Oh, it is real is definitely I observe it a lot with stuff. People around me say about others to like, Oh, she's doing his job. I was like, maybe she needs to do that. Like, I used to probably be the same in thinking that and it's taught me a lot that that might be her hour that she needs just to feel like a human and be a better mom. So it's been a lot lots of work to pick up on your own. Like, where you're being critical of others, where you like, oh, that's maybe I'm envious of that. Or, you know, I don't really know her story, but it's because they're like, We can't do anything. So you can spend too much time with kids and not and not do anything for yourself. I can spend too much on yourself and nothing for your kids like it's it's a losing battle the same time my writing have changed? Definitely. Yeah. I have a collection of songs I have a new body of work that I'm I've started recording. And it's it's very much inspired by motherhood and and relationships with my own mother and, and grief and, and yeah, identity and belonging and home. And I don't think I would have explored those themes. Pre children. I don't I don't pray children. My songs weren't all about love and breakups. You know, a number that were and then under that still I you know, but I don't think I would have been inspired to explore those really personal relationships, family relationships, had I not experienced that enlarging of your family, you know? To me, being a mum is the best thing I have ever done. It is just the biggest blessing. And I'm always it's always in the back of my head, that they're only this little months, like they're growing so fast. And it might not be everyone's cup of tea or how they want to do things. But I have just loved being there and doing that. I think. Yeah, I mean, I'd have 100 kids if I could. I'm not 100 Actually that that would. Yeah, maybe 90. If you were talking to me about an experience that you'd had, like, let's say, you were finding it hard, giving yourself time to do something. My advice to you would be Alson you're still the person you were before you had a baby. Get out there, you know, you need to spend some time on yourself. So I can give some great advice. But so I would like to say that I don't believe in mom guilt. But I've experienced it. So I think it's definitely it's there. I still have moments, even today where I feel like I could be doing better. I should be making a different decision. I think it's I think it's incredibly real. I think it would be great if it wasn't but I think we would be kidding ourselves if we said that it wasn't a real thing. Because yeah, I have felt it. I've probably even been in a category of martyrdom martyrdom. Is that what they call it? Where Yeah, yeah. Are you just real? sacrifice yourself, for somebody else. And yeah, it's really interesting because like, I've had an understanding prior to having jack of how important it is to look after yourself and to put yourself first and to know that that's actually not being. It's not being selfish. It's like, probably the purest form of self love, is to be able to put yourself before somebody else. But then falling into motherhood and, yeah, it's just a real, like, it just, it up ends that belief. And I think, for me, it probably just, it just happened. Like it was just, I think, a change of lifestyle, knowing that I had a little baby that was like, 100% reliant on me. And I felt I just sacrificed myself. I imagine for women, especially having kids, it's so important to nurture those kids, and you seem to be putting everything into the children, I know, from seeing it firsthand, through my wife that she puts everything into our kids and your wonder like, now I've you know, she's focused on going back to studying more nursing and, and, and that's something that she's passionate about, she loves, so we make time to fit her, you know, things that she needs to do to into into her life, if you don't have an outlet somewhere or a passion, and you've got nowhere to you know, to do it, and it builds up and you know, probably can end up being the falling down of your marriage because you just got no outlet and you feel like you're locked up with the children and just having this double life that you you know, that just ends up crashing around around you. If it doesn't have you don't have an outlet. And you know what, I had this conversation with Dan, the husband. And he said to me, Chanel, some people just don't get to he's he's seen the rise and fall, he's seen me get these opportunities, and then me crying a heat when they have just not gone the way I thought they should have at the time. And he said, some people just don't get to do their dream lobby, like and I and I, for me that didn't sit well. Because I was like, No, I'm going to because I need to do it for myself, what are we going to set up so I can see I'm having this premonition of me being 50 or 60 years of age, and kicking myself for not trying at least. So I said, he said, the kids, you're an amazing mum, the kids love you so much. And they will be proud of you if you just worked in a cafe or whatever. And I said, but I'm not proud of me. Because you can work in a cafe, absolutely, if that's what you want to do. But it wasn't what was in my soul to do. And I said, they need to see their mom chasing the path that is right for her, and then encouraging them to do the same thing. Because they're learning from me, don't just stand still, because it's easy to do. So. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, if it was easy, everyone would do it. It's something that women need to sort of let go of, and allow themselves to look at it in a way that if I'm doing something for myself, I'm bettering myself so that I can be better for my children. So if I have an art show, and you know, I gotta, you know, my husband has to put the kids to bed and they don't get me seeing them to sleep or whatever it's like, my kid is, is growing from that experience. They're not, it's not losing me for one night, and they're not going to be traumatized by that. I mean, they're learning to be adaptable. And they're learning that, yes, your mother has her own life and, and when you grow up and have kids, you're gonna have your own life too. And I think it sets an example for my daughter, that you don't have to give up your entire life and you don't have to martyr yourself constantly, that you actually deserve to have a life on your own and it's gonna make you a better mom. I didn't feel guilty about going to work because I knew in my mind that without all this external pressure and whatever else to be a perfect mum, because that wasn't around. You know, you just did the best record that I needed to go back to work for my own sanity. And I did not feel guilty about that. So that was it when Harry was 10 months old. I'm not a maternal person. I'll be the first to say I'm not a I'm not a A person who's in an apron baking a cake, breastfeeding their child at the oven. Like I am not that person. I work I thrive off work, I thrive off intellectual stimulation. Just being a man is not enough for me. So never once did I feel guilty to for going to work and making that decision back then. I mean, being a parent in general, but especially being a mom does not stop you from being an amazing musician and amazing artists and amazing teacher, whatever it is that you do. It's another thing in your life that is very, very important. And yes, your priorities change. But it doesn't stop you being amazing at what you do in that moment. And I've had people kind of, you know, second guests that I've had people be like, oh, so Oh, you're back at gigs. Oh, really? That's, that's soon? Oh, that's interesting. And you know what I just say to them, I'm like, why wouldn't I be? Actually, I think you'll find I'm playing better than I was beforehand, so that the mother guilt of putting yourself, you know, at head of your children, sometimes, I've definitely grown learned over time not to have that quite so much. I think as the kids were younger I did, but especially that like when my youngest son in high school, I was like, No, you know, what, I'm okay, I deserve to have some allocated time. And to actually let the whole family know, right? Well, this is actually something that's really important to me, and I'm going to make this happen. And it was actually really nice to see the support that they gave me to write Yeah, really, even my, my middle boyfriend, he would say, he was actually said to me, I'll be really inspiring me with the work that you're doing. And, you know, that's the biggest thing for me ever. And my husband's really supportive, as well just, you know, constantly telling me that he's proud of me, which is really lovely. That definitely helps with not feeling guilty. If I, you know, had some space and time through the week to, to focus on my artwork and to be quiet in the studio, then absolutely, that reflects in the way that I am with, with my kids in the sense that I think it helps me to be more present. When I am with them, I'm not so much thinking about that. It allows me time and space, I guess, to really focus on them. So I think they shifted from thinking that they all these different things take away from each other, but they don't they all support each other and work together. Like I said, as part of an integrated life. So that's been a big shift for me, and, and being able to shift my thinking around there. And I think it's helped me manage my expectations. I guess I have myself. And then when I found out it was twins, it was like, all the anxiety kicked in. Because I felt like, well hang on. What does that mean, for me returning to work can I return to I won't be able to return to work, you know. And then you have all the stress about how my, how's my body going to change with two it was, I felt great with one baby and I was happy with being pregnant. But then once I found out it was twins, it did really slow me and I had to really adjust to getting excited about it and not being too anxious. So I'm very lucky that I had twins. And I think that now and I love their bond and I love being a twin mom. But I didn't you know, I didn't initially I really I feel bad that I think that but I really was upset and I was really anxious. So I had pretty bad anxiety when I was pregnant actually, once I found out I think it's also about making a space for yourself. Like making art, or even just making stuff has just always been a way for me to take space for myself even as a child. You know, and I think that's just become more and more important. As an adult when you've got more responsibilities and have to divide your time more. It becomes more challenging, but then also probably more important to do as an absolutely it's like mental health you know, and it's and it's so connected with looking yeah looking after yourself. And so for me it's very much part of my identity I think when you have children you like if you're if you're a committed parent if you are completely into the next few years being, you know, in a state of creative upheaval If you commit to that, then you know it. It changes it changes everything. You know, you can't it's not possible to to have those those sort of positive relationships without making sacrifices. How do you feel about mom guilt? I think it's very alive and well and prevalence. And I, I guess I just had to decide that I didn't care about it. I have, have actually had a lot of flack. Over the years for I think I got, I got told at one point that I was handling my children to their dad. And yeah, so there was that comment? I think I've actually been pretty heavily criticized by other local museums as being ruthless and being overly competitive and quite a lot of other things. Because it seems like a lot of people, I guess, that's not just a mum thing. That's also a an Australian thing. I think we dislike anybody that plays a big, I had had an identity, I was a health care worker. And then I became a mom, and then I wasn't that anymore. And so you know, people would be like, Oh, what do you do? And I'd be like, Oh, I'm a stay at home mom. And so they would automatically say, oh, then okay, what is your husband do? Which I'm just like, it just felt terrible. To me. It felt terrible to me. I went through an identity crisis, really where I was just like, What am I besides a mom, like, it didn't feel good to me, I felt really, really lost during that kind of transition, because I didn't really know. And like, just, I mean, I'm not saying that, like, just being a mom isn't enough. But for me, it didn't. It just didn't. I just felt lost. You know. So yeah, I mean, it is really important to me to feel like I have something that is just mine. I spend a lot of time when I'm rehearsing and performing actually away from families. So that's easier for that in that regard for to be able to kind of just concentrate on, on the show that I'm doing with a foreign when now that I'm doing a bit more work here in that Gambia at home, and it's actually really tricky. When you when you work go to work during the day, and then you have to come home and can try and switch it off. So that's a real struggle for me, because I've kind of had and realized it was a bit of a luxury to be able to just get in that bubble. And, and kind of create and then not have to come home and parent that yeah, the really tricky part is trying to combine the two and pay. You know, I have huge admiration for you know, a lot of my working actor friends in Adelaide that have to do that all the time. organically, disclaim all that stuff is so much different for the mother. It's just this just the ladies thing for fathers, it does change. But nowhere near as much as a mother is going through all that sort of identity is just trying to separate motherhood, you can get lost in the water murky. But it's definitely very important to have those two separate because I think you're just running yourself silly and you lose maybe a lot of that passion that you might have wither away a little bit. Because you just feel like that you've got to put family as a priority. And then this is exhausting and draining. It's easy to just go in there. One day I'll get there but I think if you can find the time to even if it's a little bit just to separate them and educate that individuality neutrality variable. It's not just that monkey. It's like, it's the wife guilt. It's the brain guilt. It's the WHEN DO WE it's very hard to make time for everybody. I think now I think more so it's important for me to realize that not to think of it as mum guilt anymore, but, but realize that I think they need to have a better version of mum. And if Mum needs to be in that creative space, then they're gonna get a better version of me.

Mother Wild - Mother's Day Special A global group of women who believe in mothers mothering themselves. S2 Ep42 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Today I present a very special Mother's Day episode to mark the day in the US and Australia and many other countries around the world. I am joined by 4 creative mothers, Angeli Gunn , Tasha Miller , Karryn Miller and Carmela Fleury representing Mother Wild - a global collective of women who believe deeply in helping mothers mother themselves. Along with their 2 other co-founders Anna af Jochnick and Karin Hesselvik the girls facilitate festivals, workshops, courses, monthly activities and retreats (both virtually and in real life). 2 years ago the idea for their first book Mother Wild: A Book Of Mothers’ Dreams was born. Each one contributed their own unique set of skills and words to bring the book to life, together with 9 artists from 13 different countries, while collectively caring for 32 children during a global pandemic. The result is an inspirational book that has more than one purpose. While the book was designed as a simple bedtime story for children, the true intention is to re-awaken the wild, adventurous spirit in mothers - and not just through the words on each page. In the first year, all profits from the book will go towards supporting mothers in the best way they know how - by mothering them. ***This episode contains discussions around post natal anxiety*** Mother Wild website / book / instagram Podcast website / instagram The Lost Daughter movie Mercy on the Mother Quotes during this episode are taken from the book, thank you to Danni Reade for narrating. Music is from Australian new age trio Alemjo , and is used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast. Today I present a very special Mother's Day episode to mark the day in the US and Australia. I'm joined by four creative mothers, Anjali Gan, Tasha Mila, Karen Mila, and Camilla Fleury representing mother wild, Mother wild are a global collective of women who believe deeply in helping mothers mother themselves. Along with their two other co founders, Anna F. Chuck, Nick and Karen hustling. The girls facilitate festivals, workshops, courses, monthly activities and retreats, both virtually and in real life. Two years ago, the idea for their first book, Mother wild, a book of mother's Dreams was born. Each one contributed their own unique set of skills to bring the book to life, together with nine artists from 13 different countries, while collectively caring for 32 children during a global pandemic. The result is an inspirational book that has more than one purpose. While the book was designed as a simple bedtime story for children. The true intention is to reawaken the wild adventurous spirit in mothers, and not just through the words on each page. In this first year, all profits from the book will go towards supporting mothers in the best way they know how to run retreats for mothers to Mother themselves. Quotes during this episode are taken from the book, and a big thank you to Danny Reed for narrating music used from a limb joy with permission. This episode contains discussions around postnatal anxiety is this the first time you have more than one person? It absolutely is the fifth. And you don't have just one more you have. I have triplets. Yeah. Could I just take a photo of this? Like so let's see. How's everybody going? Oh, so good. Oh, my pleasure. Thanks, ladies. Sorry, I'm trying not to seem daunted. But I'm like, This is gonna be awesome. Some giggles Yeah. Thank you so much. This is really exciting. I've not just got one but I have got four creative months with me today. Welcome along, everybody. Thank you. Yeah, this is so exciting. We're here today we're celebrating creative mothers all around the world today. Lots of special guests. And we're talking about this amazing book that I've got in my hands, Mother wild and the the amazing group of women behind. We are mother wild. So I'm going to start by talking to Camila. Camila, welcome along. Thank you. Tell us a little bit about yourself where you're from a little bit about your involvement with the book and with the project as well. So I am part French part Spanish, but I was raised moving around quite a bit just because of my father's job and after birth. I think motherhood I don't know if I think Tasha calls it a beautiful transition. It broke me but also made me go deep into I became a very inquisitive spiritual seeker and I did a bunch of things. And I believe it was iOS go I was looking at a ceiling and there were broken knees, and they were about 24. And it was like you need to work with mothers and all of you might be broken. But together, you hold a new roof or a new paradigm. And so I just sought out to work with a couple of moms through a thing called the online moment village. And it was six moms at a time. And from this village, I offered a Wildeman Mastermind course, which these beautiful ladies joined. And from there, it was just magic and predestined. And I did nothing but just show up and let magic unfold. So that's how I actually happened. Wow. So it was really quite like an organic sort of thing. It sort of came from weight. Do you have a background in art before you had your children? And I'm sure I've always been an artist, but no, I got lost in engineering for school and and then I think doing a life coaching training that Tasha and I both did, they made us do vision boards. And then that took me on a vision board journey, which I'm still on on a daily basis, which keeps me sane. So I don't think I'm an artist, per se. Although writing is an art right, so I guess I've always been a writer. Ish. A bad one, but I've always been one. Awesome. All right. Karen, let's go to you. Can you share whereabouts you are in the world? what your background is and your involvement with the book as well? Yeah, I'm, I am originally from New Zealand. I currently live in Japan, and I left New Zealand when I was 20. And I haven't really besides having my two girls there. So they had some claims in New Zealand. I haven't really spent much time living back there. But yeah, so my involvement with the book. Yeah, I mean, it's been such a collaborative process together. And Carmela came up with the beautiful idea. And then we all kind of joined together and worked on it, to bring it to life and be clear with Darren, the idea would have stayed an idea. Like there was enormous momentum behind car and in terms of writing and making it I mean, publishing, editing all of that. So that should be it. She won't say that. But we're very, you know, it's funny, cuz I could like see your face and you're like, hang on, like, What did you say? Yeah. Yeah, no, it's been a beautiful process. Like I am, I was before becoming a mum, I was working as a travel writer for many years. And then I kind of switched and I moved into PR, and part of that was also the stability of PR, when I was working in as a travel writer, it was a little bit like any kind of creative pursuit, sometimes it's the income is high, and sometimes the income is low. And so, you know, like, travel writing was always my joy. And I work with hotels now. So it's still joyful, like, it's still in the travel industry. But I think for me, this project, gave me a chance to kind of flex a different side of creativity for me, whereas, you know, like, I'd been focused on, you know, what I need to do for the clients or what I need to do for the magazine. And this was like, Well, what do I want to do? What do I want to bring into this world? And what's the kind of message that I want to share with moms? And, you know, we had a collective vision, we all wanted to share something with mums, and we all wanted to impact mums. But um, yeah, I think that's like, part of what really excited me about this project, because it was, yeah, just that pure creativity versus having to meet someone else's. And in that, also, you know, we didn't have to meet like a publishers demands, you know, we like we followed our own rulebook when it came to this. You had to leave for two years for a very, very long birthing process. That was, yeah, but yeah, having that complete creative freedom to present whatever you wanted to. Yeah, yeah, that's tremendous. All right, Tasha, over to you. Yeah, I grew up in the United States and I live back here now but I met Carmela first and Tokyo and I was living over there with my family. I became a mom there. And I remember like you might see a meet cute in a movie I remember the first time I laid eyes on her she was just all hair and legs in this big pregnant belly and I just thought I don't whatever she's got I want some of that was just so magnetic. And it's still like a pinching me listening to all of these ladies talk and just thinking this is really my wildest dreams, not just the friendship, but the fact that we get to create and collaborate and go on this wild ride together is just, it's so energizing and invigorating. And I you know, for me, I don't know that I would have ever called myself an artist. Esther before having the opportunity to work with these women, they loved to travel, but I look, you know, I loved exploring, I loved making things, but I think, you know, we talk a lot together about uncoiled potential, and that inside all of us, there's just so much wrapped up in there and particularly under, like the weight of motherhood, it's so easy to sort of shrink and putting, put that part of ourselves, you know, back on the shelf in the back burner. But what I found with working with these women and then continuing to connect with other creative women who are mothers, too, is it It not only isn't uncoiled it's just like this fire that burns now and you know, a lot of times I feel like the such a construct or an idea in our minds that you know, we need to hold on to our idea of hold on to things till the right time, you know, to be able to get out there and do that and, or keep waiting or or be afraid that life is passing a spy or somebody else is going to kind of take our whatever, seize the moment, and it can create a lot of tension, and conflict inside and what we found with them. And these are like the most generous, incredible women but also every mother we've met along the road has been the most incredible, generous creative woman is like, when you see someone burning bright, it just lights you up more. And the more it's like a generative quality so I can look at so many things in my life now go yeah, I've always been an artist actually. Like, we're all in coke, Coke co creation with our lives, you know, and and looking for ways to express express that so yeah, it is. So it's it's been really dreamy. Yeah. And I must say you're you're you've got such an infectious way of talking about it. You can't help but get like, swept up with it. It's it's awesome. It was like a stoke, right? Like, I feel like for surfers when they're on the party wave. I'm like who's joining us? This is so good. That's it. Listen, I love that. All right, and finally to Anjali, welcome. Hi, thank you for having us. This is such an honor to be here. Yes, I share a little bit about your background where you're from. Yeah, just a bit of your involvement with the book as well. Yeah, absolutely. And before I do that, I have to say about these magnificent women. Carmela is like our visionary and our connector or community builder. With current the way she was in the writing process. It was like watching magic unfold right before your eyes, she would come up with most beautiful things. And so much of this book has like her heart just stamped on these pages. And she is so beyond organized because she helps make things happen. We wouldn't be here right now if it wasn't for her. And Tasha, even though she doesn't, or hadn't seen herself as an artist, she takes the most beautiful pictures. And she puts together the most incredible videos and she captures like heart and soul and spirit. And she found so many of our illustrators, and she just has this magic radar for finding talent in all its forms. And so I just wanted to give them a shout out before I dive into this because I really Yeah, I mean, it's everyone brings so many strengths and talents and gifts, that I actually think this is not just a once in a lifetime gathering, it's like a once in multiple lifetimes that you get just this beautiful confluence of talent coming together. And it's incredible that I look back on this and think, you know, during two of the hardest years of most of our lives, that we had this really incredible project we were working on. And for me, it gave me so much joy. And also it was a story of source of strength and inspiration. So I was born and raised in Canada, and I loved, loved traveling, and I still do. But once I became a mom, it became even more important to travel and see more of the world. So I was traveling in Japan, which is where I met Carmela and like Tasha said she just has this magnetic quality where it's like que you. You say the words and I will be there because we're going to make dreams come true. And the heart of this book really feels Like, we want to make sure that mothers don't get weighed down with the demands of motherhood and whatever it is that lights them up, or brings them joy, we want them to remember that. And, as well as they're reading this book, it's their children who understand the importance of their mothers having their own dreams, and finding their own joy in places outside of motherhood. And that is so important. The book I love on the back, six authors and nine artists from 13 Different countries created this book virtually while caring for 30 children during a global pandemic. That's just like, I don't know how else you could say this is amazing. No, it actually ended up being 32 children because it took so long for the book to come out to were born and the process the same mom, so there's two. So you could give them a shout out and then current who are not here. And they they helped get illustrators and help get our ducks in a row and funding for Kickstarter. And so they they're here in spirit, they can can you each share with us what what sort of your pages were in the book of what your your dreams are in the book, we really came together to to write and bounce off of each other. So now when we go through the words, like it's, it is hard to discern, oh, that was definitely you know, my thing. But I think that that has kind of been the spirit of how we've worked together the entire time. Of there's no ownership over one thing they there is not only a generosity, but a tremendous amount of trust. And we really looked like I always joke, I got my fountain of bad ideas like I like overflowing with them. But I use that term loosely because we love the idea of like nothing is off limits. You never know, you know what you say? Even if it's 50 iterations down the line, how that might have inspired somebody else's art or else's ideas in the world. And so in terms of that, but I will say the dream that I personally feel incredibly connected to is a beautiful illustration done by aura Lewis, who was our first Illustrator to jump on board and say yes. And it's mother's in a field of flowers. And it's all about mothers coming together and community and supporting each other supporting children running around wild and free. And when I look at that, I'm just like, that feels like home. Like that's the direction I'm going, you know, if only if only in my mind. Yeah. So So basically, like you're explaining not It's not each page isn't one person's it's you've all thrown your ideas together, and come up with it collectively. So Alison, if I can add, I think we've had windows of between like, because we're not, we weren't on the same plus we had the Europeans. And so it was over three, basically one of two or three were either waking up or falling asleep when we were all together. So we had maybe a window of 10 minutes when we were all clear headed. And so but just the act of showing up. And this is for mothers who are listening, just the act of I mean, I think we're just being each other's accountability. Coach, we just by showing up, we would just maximize our time together rather than like, oh, I would like to write a book. But I'll start tomorrow. And when it's just yourself, you might just put it off a little more than when you're showing up. And we're like for the next 10 minutes. We're going to brainstorm and so we would brainstorm. And what was funny and I remember Anjali, you know, when you said like watching card from a distance, like magic happened unfolding, like I feel like that happened at some point, because we sat down with, I think we had 120 dreams that we had all come up with together. And what we did is remove the location because it was like Thailand, Bali, this the other, you know, we remove the geographical location because the feeling was kind of the same, you know, dancing in the desert in Africa, you could be doing it in Australia. You know, it's just remove the geographical location and kind of bring in like, Who wants to go in the snow who wants to go in the ocean who wants to go deep sea, you know, and CDC diving who wants to, there were all these characteristics that were the same in all these different places. So we actually just collect you know, combined all of them and I think we came down to 18. And it's funny because we asked a couple of friends along the way and we all had similar daydreams or similar adventurous dreams of things that we'd like to do. So go ahead card on I was just gonna say to like, we wanted to make sure that we had like the big dreams, you know, like the maybe the once in a lifetime dreams, but we also wanted to have the dreams like just being able to have a bath by yourself without being interrupted. So I think it's just the act of dreaming versus what the dream is. And you know, we kind of say that as well, like whether you go off and do it or you know, like, it's not the point, it's just reminding yourself that you know, to dream. And I think you know, like to just give Anjali, a little shout out as well, since she said such beautiful things about us before. Like, I think, with this process, as well, rest was also like a really important one that we wanted to you know, they think we get caught up in doing these things, big things in activity, but especially as a mom, like resting and taking that time of solitude is really important. And that was one of the things that we wanted to get across. And one of the things that throughout this whole process like Angela was really good at reminding us about, yeah. Self Care. Yeah, self care guru, for sure. So Angela has got it nailed down. She is the cream of the crop when it comes to mothers. She's one of Yeah, one in a million. Love you girls. And I love it makes me so happy to see mothers taking exquisite care of themselves. So anywhere along the way, when we can remind each other that it just feels really, really good. Yeah, for sure. I actually saw a quote the other day on Instagram, and it was something about I can't remember verbatim, but it was about we see rest as a reward for something rather than as a part of just general life. Yeah. It's so true, isn't it? It's like, we have to get all this done. And then we can take the break. But no, we have to prioritize rest. And Alison, in creating this and even just creating mother wild, we we set out to define a few things that are really important to us. And one of the things we realize is like with that grind culture and with that hustle culture, it didn't quite feel feminine. And when Carmelo was talking about the new paradigm, you know, that was something that would come up often is how can we do this in a way that maybe feels more feminine or feels more delightful, or we're not necessarily trying to get to those same goals that we've been taught to believe are markers of success. And so Karen said something really beautiful. She's like, Guys, Friendship first. And so that kind of was like set the tone for us to take care of not only these friendships, but to take care of ourselves in the process of birthing this book. And Tasha would always say, Guys, it's the journey, right? So like any hard lessons and challenges and bumps is like, okay, it's part of the journey, and even the rest and the self care that factored into so many of our meetings and moments and even our time away from one another, that it kind of has got woven into the fabric of our lives, because this is how we want to do things and approach life now. Not just Yeah, yeah, we really want to walk the walk. Yeah. Have you noticed that your lives have changed since you've done this in the way that you care for yourself? Everyone's nodding. Yeah. At the very beginning of our, you know, when we first came together, and I feel like I'd love you to explain it in more detail, but Carmela brought this analogy, she said, Okay, we're a flock of birds, you know, and if you look up in the sky, birds flying formation, and there's always one at the front, the one that has the most energy, let's say, but when that bird needs to fall back, it falls back. And without any fuss. Another one comes forward and takes that so so she's like, so when you need to fall back, fall back. And when you want to fly harder and faster and flap harder and faster. Go to the front, there's no hierarchical thing. Again, it avoids boils down really to like a tremendous amount of trust. And it's not that I just that I like, trust that these ladies are going to be brilliant in what they do and all of those things, but I also really trust that they'll respect and understand and encourage me when I'm tired and life is demanding and a kid is sick, or I just need to lay down that that's going to be okay. But we're I think it's the educational system that kind of teaches us like oh, you know, get grades don't show your neighbor like while you're doing the test. And and I think that that that sense of collaboration is lost along the way. But scientists do show and birds don't know and they're not reading the scientific facts, but they know that by flying together, they will reach they'll not only go faster, further, but they'll reach together the destination they set because I don't know how they communicate again, but they reach it. So for survival. We need to Uh, and I do think creativity is needed. It's vital, vital force for any human school, you know, just by flocking together, we're reaching a goal together. And it's more fun. It's more lucrative. It's more everything. Why don't more women do this? We thrive in community. Yeah, absolutely. In my dream, children run wild and free. Mothers thrive together in community. I like talking about mum guilt. That sounds really nice. You want to go there? Let's go there. Yeah, let's do. It was the first to take that one up. And quick question, Alison, do you steer away from profanity? Or can we just oh, gosh, no, go for it. Okay, we can talk. I thought I remembered that. Yeah. I'll figure it out. first. You first Oh, okay. So just recently, on our Instagram, we had a post with like, a whole bunch of middle fingers up saying fuck off mom guilt. So this is definitely a topic that we discuss amongst ourselves. And for me, I don't have mom guilt. As in, I don't invite mom guilt in to stay for tea. That toxic voice is so not welcome. In my mind. It's a fucking waste of space. Bravo, I believe. Thank you. Yeah, put it in a timeout or just don't like it's permanent timeout. Because I believe I'm doing the best I can at any given moment. It's a fallacy to think that we can be at all all the time. So my intention is to be present. And it comes down to this. I really fucking love myself. And I also really care about my well being. And feeling guilty does not serve my well being. And it does not improve me as a human in any way. Guilt is for when you're doing something wrong, something bad, something malicious. So when a mom feels guilty about going out for a date night, instead of being with her kid, you're trying to tell me that her pleasure and her well being isn't a value. Or when a mom is with her kids and she's not working? She should feel bad about that. No. How does that help her in any way? So I just think it's absolute shit. And we have the choice to value ourselves and try not to be everything to everyone all the damn time. document that. Sorry. Yeah, I was clapping I was. Luckily I was muted. So distract from your beautiful, beautiful words. Yeah. I love that. Can you send that to me, please? Because that is amazing. I feel like I need to duck up next. I actually, I think you hit the nail on the head. Like the thing about presence because I think that you know like, that's when Mama guilt starts to enter when you're thinking about the future or the past. But you know, like that, that one line you talked about with presents really stuck with me there. That's the key. And Carmela, I know you're itching. To hear what you have to say. You think more I think I'm so happy I'll listen that you can't you ask this in every podcast because it is what terrifies women and and mothers from moving forward and it's that I don't know if it was passed on from generations. It definitely once you you do the work on delete Justin, things unlock and you can finally walk your path. I the first piece I wrote on medium and we're happy to I'm sure we all have our own versions of our own battling that that that demon of mom guilt. But um, I wrote a piece my first piece on medium was Dear Mama guilt, your fucking pitch. And it was I just talked about how Prince Siddhartha left at 29 to renounce it. Yeah, he left his family of origin for seven years. He left his wife with a newborn son behind. And he came back from meditating under the treatment and met his seven year old child, no biggie, what else he was substances subsequently named the Buddha, the enlightened one. And then, you know, it was at a time when I was like, I had a four year old and a two year old and I was about to go on to one of many things that the spiritual curiosity seeker was looking for. And it was just like, Oh, these voices and it was just like one man along the way, who was like, Oh, where are your kids and who's looking after them? And it's like, why are you leaving them? And I remember like, oh my gosh, he's right. Am I doing this? And then it was like, wait a minute, I have given so much already through the pregnancies through the daily mundane things that I can ask for little bit of time away and I didn't need the permission of my husband, they were thumbs up, didn't need the permission of my parents, they didn't know where I was going. And, and it was just culture at large that I just had to bat away. You know, he was just asking me a normal question, but I took it really personally and I had to have that argument back. So this poor man, I think it was at a chicken boat for a boat ticket. And I was like, I've been doing this and that and he's like, Okay, give me your ticket keep going. But then that thought behind if one at once I did that, that job on Julie did a bedding her away. I mean, it was just like, Alright, let's go walk the Camino. Let's go do this. Let's go. It was just one after the other. So I recommend moms to do that work first. And then things will unfold. Hmm, huh. Well said Well said, sir. I'm just conscious that my the way I'm looking here is changing quite a bit because of my you're enlightened. My son likes it. I love it. It's a halo. I'm just gonna close my brain. Literally glowing. blinding you all in a minute. I love your background. Allison. I'm so intrigued me. We're just lose back there. There we go. Yeah, I do a lot of different things for fun. Like my my core, I'm a singer and a songwriter. But I do all sorts of things just to switch off. So there's a lot of painting stuff and that there's all my put my kids paintings up there because I find that incredibly inspiring when I'm writing and, and I've got ever up there as well, because they're pretty amazing. Yeah, I love it. It's like a living vision board. Right? We make a lot of vision board. Yeah. It's like my whole my vision wall. And then I've got you can't see it, because it's out of picture. But real, real artists work that I've framed that I've purchased. So I've got like, that really awesome stuff over here is like the seven. Love it. But it's that whole idea of like to be beautiful. You have to take in beauty. Right? Yeah, absolutely. And we just were taught to think that that's really frivolous. But that's like the thing that gives us vital energy, you know, and in a generative like reciprocal relationship, if we're going to keep creating, whether it's creating art for others, or it's creating snack boxes and creating a plan to get three kids in a minivan before 8am, whatever it is, right? We're constantly meeting some sort of need or demand or whatever. Like, we've got to fill ourself up with beauty. And I think along with rest, it's incredibly valuable. And I always love coming across a woman who's killing herself often that way. It's like striking. In my dream, the drums and my body are one. I dance wildly, under the blazing sun. Yeah, I wanted to share too, and I'm gonna butcher the quote, so maybe somebody can help me. But a quote that we talk about a lot is the Carl Jung one that one of the greatest burdens on a child is the unlived life of the mother or the parents or however it was phrased. And that's for me, and I think a lot of probably the four of us here is kind of a compass to come back to, when, you know, Mama guilt inevitably rears its head, or I'm finding that tension within just like, I, I'm not going to be perfect. I don't you know, I also have take issue with the whole construct of a good mom and a bad mom or whatever, like, you know, I think that that's really loaded as well. But basically, at the end of the day, there's so much like I, I can try my best to be as healthy as I can and curate a beautiful childhood for my children. But at the end of the day, they're going to experience it in their own way. And that's not mine to choose, right. But the one thing that I can control is I'm not going to give them a mom, who is resentful, who is depleted, and who you know, is is yeah, just just unfulfilled and unsatisfied in her own pursuit in life, that part I can do and my hope is from there, those are kind of some keys and some tools for them to do that in their own way in life. Thanks, amazing reactions. We love we love giggling we love having fun. We throw dance parties all the time virtual dance parties 80s Dance parties. I mean, we want to feel that pleasure and that joy in our lives and we want to share it with others. And so along with rest, that's kind of one of our core principles or beliefs, if we're gonna get kind of corporate there, you know that it's like, we like taking deep breaths, dancing together, laying down and, and really supporting each other as much as we can. And like Carmela said, showing up. But what's interesting is that when we offer resting or dancing, or move, you know, mothers and we're generalizing here, but tend to run away a little bit. Whereas we're like, we're going to do a really intense intellectual, like, professors from the University of Jerusalem are coming to talk about the taboos of motherhood, like everyone shows up. So again, I don't know if it's something to do with our educational system that values research and, and you know, have lots of slides and lots of proof over just easy, playful, joyful, fun dancing, without a mental conclusion at the end. So that's an interesting, and arrest Oh, my goodness, mothers are like, not using my time efficiently, there's no chance you're wasting in my dream, I sail across the sea. destination unknown. Adventure beckons me. Color and before we move on to the next topic, is there anything you wanted to add to the mom guilt soup mix that we've got going on? You know, it's something we've we've, we've talked about internally so much, but yeah, I think through this process of working with these amazing woman is how I've really overcome Hmong girl. And I think, you know, they kind of let talks about, like, what we've been brought up to believe and stuff. And I definitely for the longest time, and I've talked about this internally, like, had my self worth tied up with productivity, and whether that's productivity through work, or whether that's how much I'm giving something children. And, you know, I'm on this constant hamster wheel, whether it's with Yeah, with all parts of my life. But yeah, like coming together, and like exploring these topics with these woman, and, you know, through the other things that we run with other amazing woman and stuff I've really come to learn, you know, like, it's not doing anyone justice, when I feel guilty about these things. Least of all my kids, you know, and especially like, I have two young girls, and it's something I don't want to model. Like, I want them to go out there. And, you know, like, do what they want to do and do it unapologetically. So how can I expect them to do that? If I'm not doing that? Yeah, that is so important, isn't it? And I think it's it I think if we're gonna change the world, we've we've got to be able to model it for the next generation so they can continue it on. I think that's so important. Is it Yeah, residue, just stop here. Do you want to say that we have relapses we have? Oh, yes. All into mom guilt. On a daily basis, were like, Oh, my goodness, I missed this moment. Because I was doing that and, and just letting letting go of them. I do think just that introspection of like, Oh, I think I did. I overdid it, I gave to too many people at once. So we really encourage mothers to take solid, you know, solo retreats and just a little pockets of recharging, re re re evaluating the you know, adding creativity and what an arrest and play and things that recharges Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's not not dwelling on it as well. Like I think I've got better you know, when you have the relapse that you don't beat yourself up about it, you know, like, Yeah, I think yeah, we're all work in progress. Yeah, absolutely. I had a I had a therapist I started seeing this year and I, you know, finally blocked at the time and she would do telehealth, I have three really young kids and so I'm like, okay, you know, I cut this one hour right and but that hour leading up to it be so stressful because you kind of do all the things and get them so set up and you know, when I'd arrived there and be exhausted and then our be up and I'd be like Okay, I gotta jump back into it. And she said to me, she's like, whether you can schedule five extra minutes or 30 extra minutes or an hour and what it all what do you do, all you do is lay there or you score your even whatever it is. He's got to give yourself that room that pause to integrate. And it was so simple, but I literally hadn't considered that you know, it's just how much can I squeezing. And now when I look at my schedule, and I'm probably the biggest offender with relapsing in a lot of ways, but I look at how can I give that little bit of space? Or if there's a lot that I can give, that's even better, because we have to be able to integrate, otherwise, we just holding on to so much all the time. It's no release, until we explode, our body breaks down. Yep, that's so true. That's difficult physical boundaries. I remember a mom was just like, had the kids at the same age and we were meeting and hers. She had like this peaceful salt lamp and like, she was just in her place. And my kids were hanging on asking for food. And I was like, why? Like, they're the same age. Like, it's not like, why do you mind need more than yours. And she's just like, they know that this is my space. And I was like, Oh, I got the salt lamp. And it has my dream, I speed through an open space. I howl as the wind whips my face. All right, so another big topic I love to talk about with my guests is identity. So the way that the concept of your own identity changed when you became a mother? Would anyone like to start us off on that? I'll dive in. I don't know what I'm gonna say. I'll just dive in. I don't know, I want to come back to like what Camilla said in the beginning of quoting Tasha about this beautiful transformation. I think, you know, like, for me, becoming a mum, like, during the whole pregnancy process, I was so consumed with what was happening inside me that I hadn't really thought ahead to what would happen when the baby came out. And I think, you know, like, I, I really had in my head that, like, when I had this child, like, that was not that it was it for me, but I would give it everything, you know, like, I just really had that in my mind that I had to give up. It was definitely that kind of mentality. And then I think like, within a week, I'm like, Oh, I don't want to give myself up. You know, like, I'm like, I'm exhausted and everything, but I'm like, I'm like, okay, that's not the version of motherhood, that like I want to have, and then connecting with these amazing woman, you know, and like, just finding people with similar. Yeah, you know, we just, we think similarly about motherhood, you know, that it's not this martyrdom, it's, you know, they that you still want to be your own person, you know, you're not, you're expanding as a person. You're not giving up, you know, and I think it was the hugest transformation, and I don't think I would be, I think it was a good transformation for for one, you know, like, what we're doing is all about mothers and I wouldn't we wouldn't be doing any of this if we weren't mothers ourselves. Because we've gone through the whole process. But yeah, it's, uh, oh, come on. I will add, and I don't know if anyone who had more than one felt the same way. I felt like from zero to one was a massive like, whoa, tidal wave. How will my I mean, I think suffering postpartum anxiety for sure. And then the second one, didn't feel it that much. It was like, oh, no, I can I can be a human too. And I remember when I had my first one, a friend that I used to work with. She was like, What are you doing? And I was like, I'm drowning in motherhood, in the early days of motherhood. And she's like, I knew it. Like you're one of those brilliant people who like has given up everything for motherhood and like, we need you. We need you to leave. You know, she had just read Sheryl Sandberg like lean in I was like, I Ali Wong, and I was like, I don't need to lean in, I need to lay the fuck down. I'm tired. And I remember being like, I felt like I was letting her down. But I was like, there's no other thing that could be doing right now than what I'm doing and wallowing in it. Whereas for when my daughter was born, it was a very different energy. It was definitely more and I think that's probably what women have when they have multiple choices like the first one you're like, oh, and then it gets a little bit easier, but maybe not. I think I've had mom I've heard of moms who have the third child was like they it took it took them down. Tasha or Anjali, would you like to add anything to that? What can I say? I always like to tell this story. So when my daughter was about my first child was six weeks old and I motherhood and postpartum just hit me like a tidal wave. I mean, the only way I can describe the level of anxiety is I constantly felt like I was in the middle of this ocean with storm When the waves all around me just treading water and just trying to hold up my baby and keep her from drowning, it was It surprised me, because I always assumed that everything would feel so natural. And that I would, yeah, that was really kind of where my unfolding would have been there with this title of motherhood. And, you know, it was more complex than that. And I think that was my real first sort of understanding of how we can all contain multitudes that it can be the most wonderful, beautiful thing and also, it can be so incredibly painful at the same time, and is that once I could kind of allow for that, I feel like that I might, I've been able to expand so much more and allow for so many more things to be true at the same time, but it's lucky with my husband just so anxious, so exhausted all the things like you're saying Carmela with that particular that transition to being a mom. And I'm like, Oh, I just feel like I'm failing. I feel like, you know, everything I'm doing is not the right thing. I'm so worried about this. And he just looks at me and he goes, it doesn't matter. And I'm like, What the fuck do you mean? Like, this is literally the only thing that matters, like everything and I do in life is all not you like gonna be measured. It's like how well I I'm performed motherhood, basically. And he went on to say he's like, it doesn't matter. Because you're the mother, she has let go of this idea of being a good mother or a bad mother. Those are just constructs, no matter what, your her mother. So that's all you can do is just be that. And I was still quite pissed off at the moment, like feeling really misunderstood. But those were some of the like, wisest words that really took a bit to seep in, but became that place not only in motherhood, did I start to let go of this idea that I needed to perform something so well, that I could really just be me and get really curious about who I was never given any given moment. And just kind of yeah, a lot allow myself to come out a little bit more in ways that before becoming a mom, I don't think I even really had the awareness of how much I think I was holding back and meeting others validation. Hmm, it's very good. Tasha, I love it. I love when you talk about containing multitudes. Because I think it's something that we often think it's either A or B, right? And it's like, no, it's a and b, c, and d, so many. For me, my creative energy comes from dance. So I've always been a dancer, there's a running joke in my family that I can dance before I could walk. And I've always loved choreographing dances in my head, and I like to perform them because I don't have to worry about controlling other people in their tempo and anything. And for me, motherhood kind of felt like stepping into a dance in partnership with my child. And I was very lucky in the early phases of motherhood to have my husband who's had children before. And so he came with this very calm, reassuring energy. And I just remember feeling like I had no expectations about how anything was going to be or how anything was going to go or what it could look like, it could look like what it should look like. And it was the most freeing thing because it allowed me to really just step into that role with like, my whole heart, and really enjoy it. And then in the last couple of years, there's been a shift if this kind of sense of like, oh, there's this independence. And there's this growth for both of us. And now it's starting to feel like I can dance on my own again, a little bit more. And so that's been really nice is finding that rhythm in our lives, where it's like, I was there when I felt like I needed to be the most. And now I can look beyond that, and get excited about what the future holds. But being a mother now is so massively a part of my identity because of the work we do together. Yet. We never ever talk about parenting, our kids come up, but it's really about us and introspection and kind of what that looks like in this chapter of our lives. So there's been an evolution and for me, it didn't come with a sense of struggling against that. It came with kind of just saying, Okay, it's like it's a dance. And I think when you try to give it a little bit more ease a little bit more grace, and you don't try to control things as much. In my experience, that's kind of been that sweet spot and feeling like, oh, okay, there's a time for everything. There is not this sense of needing to know all the answers, which has been really, really nice, especially in the last little while, we've all dealt with a lot of uncertainty. So kind of not having to know everything right now. But knowing that we are there to get there, like we show up together, Tasha has this really beautiful phrase where she talks about companion plants? Tasha, could you elaborate on that, because I feel like that's what I'm trying to say. But you say much more eloquently. I have to give credit where credit is due, I was, like, just introduced, I've never gardened until I moved to an island where there's just people garden like crazy here. So I've been learning a lot. And there's a mother here in particular, I'm going to shout her out. Her name is Rachel Phillips. And if you live on Whidbey Island, you know her, she's just sunshine mother of three young boys. And she talked about the idea of companion plants, how there are certain plants that grow better next to each other. And so that's something that we together really talk about, and think about and really find to be true. And think of each other as our companion plants that when we're together, we just we get more of the nutrients we need. We exchange ideas, we exchange energy, and we just watch each other bloom, it's and it's incredible. I love that, I completely relate to that, because I my parents used to have a plant nursery, so I know all about companion planting and how, you know, you might put something next to something else, because that plant attracts the bugs away from this other one or, you know, that kind of stuff. And it's interesting hearing all your different views and the way you speak about things. And the same, this is the same for all mothers is it some people will find things really easy. And some other people, I guess, because of their the way they've been brought up or the way they've been parented find things really challenging. So being able to, you know, when Angela, you were talking about, you know, allowing things to happen and not control things I can see that would be very hard for someone like me, who likes to know what's happening next, and what's coming up next. So it's like you can bounce off each other and support each other. Yeah, that that analogy of the companion funding is really awesome. Love it. And it takes some of like, the pressure off to write, like, it all goes down boils down to like, I just kind of have to show up and do my thing. Like, you know, a plant isn't like, think about like, how am I going to do like, it just it just happens and and we we think about nature quite a bit when we're sort of, you know, exploring a lot of these ideas and concepts and just like how can we live life in a way that is generative, regenerative, you know, so that we can utilize our energies in the best ways and look to nature, you know, things go fallow, and they need to go fallow takes rest when it needs to blooms when it needs to. And there's just so much wisdom there to be drawn upon. And it's a huge source of inspiration. But it's hard to shift and do that by yourself. Right? It really, really helps to have other people who are not only walking the past, but who who who inspire you and remind you, you know that Tasha has coined a brilliant term per mama culture. Great work credit. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, yeah. Play on the permaculture, that's brilliant. In my drain, I take a journey within. I meditate in a forest and a cheeky monkey swings in. So just like you guys to talk a bit more about, like, you've talked about things that you've done together the different sort of events, I suppose. That's the right word things that the group does. If there's someone out there that's listening, who thinks I need to know more about this? Can you share a bit more about the logistics, I suppose? Like, where do they go? What's the sort of things they're going to expect that kind of stuff? Everyone's looking at you. Oh, okay. All right, then. I'm like, I'm looking at everyone. Um, Okay, then there's many different ways and I think we're, if you want in a couple of hours, we're announcing the mommies, which is the Grammys for moms. So there's tons of free events that we'd like to just for moms who, who, sometimes it feels like too much like let's introspect, let's write, let's find out about ourselves. It's like, verily, just so we do things that feel a little bit easier to access. You. We have next is a monthly mother, the mother monthly, where you just get a taste of community, we're currently revamping current Do you want to say a little bit more about mother to Mother monthly? Because she, it was her I had, I had a feeling it put me on the spot with that. Yeah, I think mother, the mother monthly, we've just done one full year, and we're going to take a month break. And we're relaunching. And in the spirit, you know, one of the things that we wanted to do with mother, the mother monthly is build community. And so in this next iteration we're bringing more mothers on. And it's also the aspect of flying in a flock. So we can share the load a little bit more easier. Because we want to do other things as well. We're gonna have more mums. But with a previous version of mother, the mother monthly, we just kind of, I guess our tagline was like, we wanted to introduce mums who were doing cool shit. So each month we had a theme. And then we would bring on different mums. And they would talk about the topic and we would have like a movement session, then we would have more of the chance to talk it through. And then we would also have an open conversation, which was one of the most popular, I think sessions because it was just our chance to chat about things. And kind of going back to Tasha, how she was talking about nature and incorporating nature, like we followed the seasons in the northern hemisphere, so we kind of like have been wintering and resting and that and now we're kind of coming into spring again. But yeah, and also like our internal seasons was a big thing that we want to follow with mother, the mother monthly. So with the menstrual cycle in that so we're bringing all that kind of into it. I don't know if I really should talk too much about the next version of other than other months, because we're kind of finalizing a few of the details. Well, we there's a lot of virtual offerings, but we are also pivot towards, in we haven't actually met all together in 30 years of working together. So we're pivoting towards doing retreats, which we we did before. And now that COVID is opened up we have one coming up in Sweden, the summer, there'll be whipped be there's there's many things in the pipeline, but we really know how valuable and we get, you know, we give each other permission by showing up in person with each other to work on the things that are important. And reprioritize and get support. So that's that's the plan. Hope we get to listen. Yeah, I think the easiest thing is probably just to go to our website, and to subscribe to the newsletter as well. And our Instagram feed is the most up to date. And yeah, the brilliant Tasha and Anjali run that that social media side of things, and they're they're better at keeping things up to date than maybe we are on our website. And then, of course, as we've mentioned before, too, we also just published our book mother wild a book of mother's dreams, that we've worked in collaboration with nine incredible illustrators from all over the world. And we kind of like, gave him some words gave him carte blanche, like, like interpret this how you want and they came back with stuff beyond our wildest dreams. And we're really proud and excited. And we've come up Carmela who introduced a project initially and she said, You know, there's so many big heavy books which have which have of course incredible value as well. But we wanted to make something that was light and distilled in something that mothers could could read with their children. So we say it's a it's a bedtime book, designed to awaken mom was wild dreamer with ANSYS got that dual purpose there. And we're really excited. And it's been really fun to hearing back from people as it kind of opens the conversation because a lot of times it's hard to remember like, oh, yeah, what is my dream? You know, what? What would I like to do? What you know, if, if there were no limits and work from there, and yeah, it's really beautiful to watch that unfold and other women. Yeah, it's, it almost sounds like we're talking about the guilt before it almost sounds like a, like a selfish pursuit. It's like you're a mum now. You've got to do this stuff. There's no time to stop and think about what you want. What's the bigger picture for you? And it's just I think it's is a really clever idea that you can read this book with your child. They go to bed and then it's your time and you've already switched on. You know, this thinking, oh, yeah, that's right. I really wanted to do this or I really wanted to do that. So it's, it's like, right Oh, off you go. Like now it's your turn sort of thing. So it's really, really clever. I really love like, I'm so grateful that I've got my copy, like, thank you so much. Thank you, I just, it's on one hand, I don't and I don't want this to sound rude anyway, but it's, it's such a simple idea, right? It's a book the theory to children, but the outcome of it and what's contained in it is so immense and so limitless. It's just like Bravo ladies, it is amazing. That means that that means everything because you know, it's it's fun to do these projects, and it's fun to connect. But really at the heart of it what we want is just that little bit of space to open up inside a mother right like this is the most exciting trip will ever take is is internally getting to know ourselves, right? All of that other stuff is really just to facilitate that deep dive is Allison, can we ask you put you on the spot a bit? Like what's your dream? A dream? Maybe? Yeah, I would have to say the one the one where the the mums on stage. That is That is me when I saw that. I was like, Oh, that takes me back to when I was a kid and I used to pretend to be Madonna. And I Yes. We have Madonna fans in the group. There's a lot of enthusiasm here. Yeah. So this is my like I was born in 78. So I might be you know, a little bit older than you ladies. I'm not sure. But I used to have the old hairspray Ken and I used to pretend I was on stage and then I used to pretend I was getting an award so I'd have my my speech for collecting my Grammy or whatever. I don't think I knew about the Grammys then when I was a kid but no, that was my thing. So yeah, that's me on say doing my thing. Oh, I love it. Brilliant. Well, you're an incredible singer. I got to hear a little bit of your stuff before you're amazing. I'm glad we did. That was going to be the cut off dream we were we were on the fence on keeping it or not. So we were really lucky that you resonate. And you are invited to the to the mommies in a couple of hours you you can get your Madonna Grammy award award your mana? Madonna Madonna. Yeah. In my dream, I stand on stage. The band's lifts me up as I sing out my rage. Are you ready? Current said, because, you know, at some point, you go down this like rabbit hole of like, what makes a successful book? And do we want to go into the children's category? And then we do should we pitch it and then you know, then you go down. They're like, oh, we need this many followers. And we need to have this impact. And we need to sell this many copies. And we need to do all this promotion where like, Does this feel right to us? And we're like, no backtrack back. And Karen said a sentence she's like, we can measure our impact by how I can't remember the exact words you use car and maybe you remember better. But it was something like we can we can measure our success by the impact of like that space that mothers open up within and it can be just one mother it can be it doesn't have to be numbers. As long as we've connected with a handful of others along the way, I think that we will feel successful, quote unquote. Yeah, Karen, did you Karen sorry. Did you want to add to that, too? And I just Yeah, I guess just reiterating that. Like, I think that's a big drive. And you know, like, we yeah, we've kind of learned and I think especially through mother, the mother monthly that it feels more organic and it feels authentic. And it feels better for us when we actually have connection. And it's you know, we don't we're not so concerned about the big reach, we want it to just be meaningful. Like that. That's the bigger driver. And yeah, and I think that was really nice. Like we through this whole process. We kept coming back together and just reevaluating, and Angelique kind of briefly mentioned their core principles like you know, and one of the core principles there was the dancing the laying down and that but was keeping shit simple. And so each time we kind of get when into that masculine energy, where we really started to think about, you know, those key markers that we should hit and what we should do and how we need to get, you know, all this done. We were like, Nah, that doesn't feel good. You know, like, and it's a passion. You know, this is a big passion for all of us. And we don't want to do it, if it doesn't feel good, even though sometimes it's hard. You know, like, at the end of the day, like it brings us all joy. And yeah, we've got to do it in a way that's authentic to us. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like, there's a difference. When you say it's hard. There's a difference between hard work and you know, having to get something done, then actually going against what you genuinely believe, and makes you feel uncomfortable when you start seeping into that. areas that you might think like you said, it's just doesn't feel right for us. So yeah, you've honored that which is really commendable. There's something that I've, it's really interesting, when I talk to moms, I get things tend to go in cycles. So the last thing for interviews I've had, have all talked about this concept of value, and what how society places value on things. And this monetary idea that especially with creatives, you're not creating things to go out and kill a lot of, you know, some are making their business and their livelihood to sell them. You're creating because it's something that is meaningful for you. And you're sharing, again, that connection with people. And I think what we've sort of got to what we've come to the conclusion and feel free to share your thoughts on this, that this, I guess the patriarchal world values, you know, money, if you can earn money from something, there's a higher value on that than if you can't. Everyone was nodding then so I'm really keen to hear what he's got to say. wants to jump in? Everyone's go cool. No, it's really interesting, because I'm not gonna say anything about this topic. Particularly, I'm gonna let someone else dive in. But you should see us on a call. So we're like, talking over each other. We're also excited. And it's, it's kind of interesting to watch us all be polite, and wait for the other person to go first. But I see Carmela is unmuted. So I will let her lead the way on from from a zoom out perspective, we run this Whatsapp group that's called the glow mama village. And one of the girls shared this talk that's happening, and it's all about these really smart people. Harvard educated and, and not and, and celebrities and non celebrities, but who are talking about how can we leverage compassion, humility, and connectedness in our cultures? Rather, I think we're all shifting away from the what's the word I'm you, corporation, there's a word, someone helped me out, I'm having a complete brand capitalism, capitalism. Thank you, please. But we're still we're still we're still in it. And so it does break my heart a little bit to be completely transparent. When I see moms put a lot of effort and a lot of their time and you know, at the cost of not being with their children or doing a job that would give them a high salary, when it's not financially rewarded. Because then they don't value the work. And then they'll take on jobs that might not be as fulfilling, but that will pay the bills. And so to me, there's this like, fine balance of like, how can it? How can we value what we do and put up because No, but yeah, it was interesting, when we started putting a price tag to what we were doing, people would value what we were doing more to so it's a learning experience. And I would love to do it for free for the rest of my life, if I could, but it doesn't serve anyone doing that. And so there's there's this fine line of how can we make it sustainable? And we have to feed ourselves to from it and value of what we're doing. And yet, yeah, not only not not letting that monetary value be our only sense of value. Does anyone else have something else. I also wanted to add that Tasha discovered and shared this great website, which is called bill the patriarchy.com. And it's really, really an interesting way of looking at all the things that mothers and caregivers do. And what that would be worth if you chose the hourly wage that corresponds with what you believe you should be paid for. And I will say when we started our Kickstarter campaign, we had a millionaire by the way on Julian, if I remember correctly, right. Oh, yeah. In two years, I think I made a million if I didn't have to pay taxes, so before taxes, so I know it's interesting, right? We talk about the invisible load and all the emotional labor that goes into raising our child During and I think because a lot of us do it with love. It doesn't also mean that our time isn't valuable. So that's also one of our, our things that we looked at when we were doing our Kickstarter campaign, it was really exciting to see all the support flood behind us. And for us, it wasn't necessarily, even though the Kickstarter was fundraising, it also showed us the greater interest in the project we were doing, which meant we had traction and what we were pouring our hearts into, was something that people were excited about and interested in. So I think that was probably the better payoff. At the end of the day, wasn't the financial it was the sense of like, yeah, you're on the right path. And, and there's people out there who believe in what you're doing. So we felt pretty grateful and pretty energized after that. Absolutely. Hugely validating you know, you've got that, that collective energy behind you of people mums want this, they need this, you know, I think, for me, like and that just remind me about the Kickstarter campaign, like I still and I know you ladies do to the Kickstarter video, like, it makes me cry, and the amount of people who like watched it, and well, you know, like, teared up over it, it really had, like, it hit a nerve for a lot of people. I feel like I need to go watch it. Now. I really wish I had found you guys back then. Because I would love to have contributed to it, too. It's like, and I'm so glad you found me too. Yeah, but this is like this is yeah, it has how incredible that we found each other, you know, like these, these little zeros see, to be like, Okay, I'm going to take a leap, and I'm going to start a podcast, and I'm going to kind of put myself out there. And I'm sure along the way, you've just listened to, like incredible women that you've met along the way. And you know, you can't always measure exactly the impact, right? But there's this sort of trust, knowing that if I show if you show up with integrity, and and from a place of like i Yes, it's it's incredible to build and to grow and to be validated, you know, in that sense, but really, at the end of the day, like you're having these conversations that have this rippling effect where you don't exactly know where it's going to end up. Yeah, but you also kind of like, you have to release that too, right? I think Elizabeth, is it Elizabeth Gilbert for one of one of the ones that we refer to a lot, just kind of, maybe not even her but like talks about this idea of like, you pour all of this energy into creating into making something great, but then it's kind of like birth to you know, we might have this idea before we have children that like we're gonna mold and educate and make these people but really, they, they are who they are, right, it's our job then to just kind of help support their unfolding. And I feel like with creative projects, which again, can be so many looks so many ways, right? I feel like every, every mother is creative, like it's just, it's there every Yeah. But um, it's kind of like, you have to release the attachment, you know, or I'll see we'll just eat ourselves alive. And again, same in motherhood, if I am so attached to the outcome of how what my child is going to do, I will drive myself crazy. And that doesn't belong to me. And I think there's, it can be really helpful to have people in community who can remind you that because it's quite vulnerable, right? Like we want to be accepted. I want things to have in the intended impact. We want things you know, to be well received, and it's natural to want to feel validated. But But that can't be the only currency there. Right. Is other people's validation? Yeah, absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I also name and it's really nice to have the support within this group. Because I think if we were each going at a project alone, we'd probably be wandering and having doubts from time to time, like, are we going about this the right way, like you're trying your best to chart your own course. But sometimes if you don't fit in the mold that's been said, it can feel a little bit unstable. And I noticed one of your questions you had about the podcast was about support. And I think that that's been one of the best things is we all feel like we can go farther together. Because we were kind of creating this new paradigm together. We all agree on it and we're not afraid to try it out. And kind of recognize like Really what is our intention? Each step along the way, whether we're hosting a virtual retreat or whether we're launching our book? What what did these goals actually mean to us? What do we want to see come out of this and the community that we've built so far, I would venture to say, to me feels like our greatest achievement. You know, and that's not something you hear all the time. Usually, it's measured in other ways. But I think for us, genuinely, we feel like that's been one of the greatest thing. That's things that's come out of this. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Angelina, it makes me think to, you know, the idea of like, a rising tide lifts all boats. And like, yeah, the most valuable thing will be, you know, not the money that somebody might have spent to, to join our monthly community for the month. But maybe six months down the line, we're seeing all of these mothers like, like not only starting to write this incredible stuff, but share it. And that's only going to impact people in their sphere in their sphere, that there's really like this incredible expression that's coming out in different ways. And also, they don't have to be mutually exclusive. Right? Like, we can be proud and excited that we're able to sustain a business that's able to, you know, receive, like, financial compensation for the hours we put in. And also hold that the most valuable thing to us is watching mother's shine, like both are both are true. And we like want it also, I think, for me is made me really value and actively seek out ways that I can support other mothers and that that pursuit as well. Yeah, when we talk about community, I write lots of notes when I've speak to my guests. And I've written intense support, and I've put it in a big circle. And that's that is the vibe that I'm getting from you ladies today. It's is that incredible support for each other, which is just awesome to see. And awesome to be in a little group with today. It's just so uplifting. Happy to be your first group interview, by the way. You've done an amazing job in my dream, I go for a deep dive. The magic of the ocean makes me feel alive but I think that's what we feel like with all the things we do as well like with mother the mother monthly, especially like because we brought we brought on other speakers in the last one year and I'm like, wow, like, they we had to meet the most amazing people we learn so much. You know, we build this community. But yeah, I yeah, I think and we all like it's a ripple. For me, it's a ripple effect. Like I feel like the core principle of really begging the shit out of each other and like absolutely adoring each other, like, just makes me want to go do that everywhere in the world. You know, like, it just kind of ripples all out. And you know, like, especially, and our focus, of course is moms but it's everyone but you know, like I really feel like that when I meet a new mom. I'm like, oh, okay, like, how can I how can I help like what can I do and it's gets me excited. But I did want to give it just a shout out that Carmela really is the the glitter we refer to her as the glitter glue that brings us all together. And just to kind of come back to that again that like none of this would have happened and I can see your grown without you guys, it would just have remained an idea that I wanted to thank you because this is officially the first podcast I'm doing. We were all on it. We had our first friend do your podcast and my battery ran out and I basically took 30 minutes to come back on and I missed the whole thing. So this is officially my first podcast. Thank you for hosting us. delightful conversation. I do have to head and help my kids with breakfast and getting them to the bus but um, thank you for having us and absolute pleasure. And you're invited to the mommy's Awesome. Thank you. We're excited Can I just ask? I watched this amazing movie yesterday. I want to know Is anyone else seen the movie called The lost daughter on Netflix exec came up on our global mama village. Yeah, it's, it's, it's good. It's It's, yeah. It's like this. It's like you're taught it's, I don't know, it's like, all of a sudden, it's like this massive taboo subject has just got a huge audience. And it's amazing. Like, when when the girl, the one that shouldn't give things away the one with the big hat. I can't remember a name now. Yeah, she said to the lake later, is it later, I couldn't remember her name was later or later. But when she said to her, how did you feel when you're away from your children? I actually said, we spoke amazing, because I knew she was just and then when she said whatever she said was fantastic. Whatever I thought I was, it's just groundbreaking, isn't it to have something like that set out in public? It's like, Ah, I was just blown away by it. I just hope that it gets so much publicity and traction, and so many people say it, I just think it's amazing. So amazing. I think it's, you know, yeah, I think it's great, because it's it shone the light on that. And but you know, of course, there are such mixed reviews, if you've kind of gone down that rabbit hole of reading what people say about it. But it's we did taboo as a topic, and other than other monthly and it was the most popular month, like people want to talk about these topics. Yeah. What do you think that says about? Society? It's just, they're not ready for stuff yet that, you know, a portion of us are ready to talk about things and other people are catching up? Or is it a divide in an unknown generations? What do you reckon? I think that we've for so long, stripped mothers of their humanity, right, and the way that they're portrayed, and also what we expect, like love is supposed to have a child is supposed to then compensate for all of these other things. And we we live in, in societies where mothers are grossly under supported and, and every sense and the demands are massive. And yeah, there's the there's no space, in a lot of instances for mothers to really feel the whole breadth of their humanity. So I think that makes people largely uncomfortable, because you have to, like, reconcile that fact that women are mothers or are humans, again, to bring up Elizabeth Gilbert, and she's not a mother herself. Maybe I'll look for this. But she wrote this Instagram or Facebook posts a couple years ago called Mercy on the mothers. And it's absolutely beautiful. And it's a, you know, a paragraph or so. And she's just basically saying, what could happen if just for one moment, we could just give mothers grace, like maybe, you know, maybe they had mental health issues, maybe they were really tired. Maybe they battled addiction, maybe they just needed time for their selves, and on and on and on. But what if just for a moment, we suspend a judgment, and we just kind of allowed for them to be human. And it was so deeply moving. And validating not only as a mother myself, but I think also for me to look at my own relation with my mom and generations and generations and generations and really sort of feel the gravity of what happens when we took this whole, essential, valuable, you know, swath of society and, and actually looked at them as real people. It's incredibly moving. It is it's so profound. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, maybe I'll look for it really quickly, because I think it's Yeah, go for it. And isn't that amazing, though, for not a non mother to say that like, that's like, yeah, she's got an incredible insight, obviously You know, life somewhere. That's, that's what's going on. She was also, you know, and I feel like it was an maybe an a big magic book, I can't remember which one, but she talks about how her parents went off and did their own thing. And that kind of, you know, like, her parents were busy leading their own lives. And she didn't look at that as something as a negative, but I think it's an inspiration for her, you know, pursuing what she wanted to pursue? Yeah, that's pretty powerful, isn't it? Yeah, I can't help but feel so moved by the idea that mother's living out their own lives is a healing of what we've been taught for so long, which is that you should be a martyr. And that the unsaid words are, your needs don't matter as much as your child or spouses or society's opinion of you. And so, to me, when we bring up this topic of mother's dreams, it just feels like there's something really special there that we want to hold space for. Yeah, it feels like a healing for me. Yeah, yeah. I love it through that lens. Anjali, that's really true. Because I oftentimes think of, I guess, maybe this is true of every generations, here we are living, right. We're really like the bridge between past and future. And for so many mothers, of course, fewer and fewer opportunities for them, but really fewer resources, and to be able to openly talk about these things at once we can shed light on it, and we can process it right, then we can allow for it. And of course, you know, so much of the work that we do today around this, maybe we won't feel we feel we feel benefit for sure. But really, it's going to be future generations that that, you know, really can move forward from this place. But yeah, but every time I take time for myself, every time I you know, check in with me every time my mother, the mother, really, really look at that. It's it's a healing not only for me, but for all of us. That CDs, and it's that it's that ripple in the pond. And it is, yeah, it flows out. And that's something that a lot, I would say, every mum that I talked to on my podcast, is a question that I asked them is that it isn't important to you to be. And I put this in air quotes more than a mum, because there's nothing wrong with I mean, that statement to me just sounds wrong anyway. I don't even know why I would like that. But that's the gist of it, like more than the parenting role, the mothering role, and everybody says, yes, it's so important that another way that someone described it to me recently was that they were an artist before they had children, and they were an artist, even before they met their partner. And that all of a sudden, when they actually had a child, why was that going to go away? You know? Why? Why is there an expectation that what you've been for your whole life is all of a sudden going to change in the blink of an eye? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I love that, because that's really acknowledging the fact that it's not that, you know, mothers weren't all of these other things weren't more than mothers for generations. And still today, but that they were having to basically cut themselves off of, like parts of themselves off right to suppress them to, to disengage or disconnect from them. And that it was always there. Yeah, that's, you know, what you said, you said something before, that you're expanding as a person, you're not giving something up. And I feel like, that's what has happened for moms for so long. And still does happen. But I think the way that we're talking about it now, you're sort of giving yourself that validation and permission to go, oh, hang on a sec. That's not actually what I want to do. And there's people there to support me in in the way I want to live my life, I suppose. Yeah. So good. Just as a side note, Angelique, just message to say her Internet has crashed. I wondered where she taught. All right. Well, look, I think I'll let you ladies go. Now. We've had a wonderful chat today. I've thoroughly enjoyed meeting you all and share the space this morning. It's been so much fun. It has this is why we love doing this, like energized after this. Yeah. I feel you feel like you could take on the world now. But can you imagine we always share the quote too. I think it was Jana Romer, who we heard this, like a well rested woman is a dangerous woman, right? Because we love but can you think of like, if every mother had some ounce of this every you know, in her day, not every moment is meant to feel like we're all feeling right now. And that's okay. Like we're here to invite all of the challenging difficult parts of life to there is we need those right? And also, if every woman, every mother could could could feel this, like, what you can't help but think, how the world would shift. You know? Let's with that energy, can I before we go, just to read to you because I think it's a beautiful monastery. Only two, but just that quick mercy on the mothers because I just I go back to this all the time. It says Dear ones, recently I was at a conference where the question was asked how many of you are afraid of turning into your mother, nearly everyone in the room stood up. This made my heart ache. My heart ached, not only for, for the people in the room who were all beautiful, creative, imaginative and wonderful human beings. It made my heart hurt for their mothers who will never be stopped, stopped being judged as failures. Because oh my god, we never stopped blaming the mothers do we? How many years? How many dollars? How much energy have we all spent as a culture talking about how mothers have failed us? What I want to say today is can we take a break just for one day, and show some mercy to the mothers? Because being a mother is impossible, and I don't mean that it's difficult, I mean, it is impossible. What we as a culture expect from our mothers is merely that they cannot be human. Mothers are meant to be some combination of Mother Mary, Mother, Teresa, Superwoman, and Gaia. It is merciless standard of perfection, merciless. God help your mother if she had ever fell short. God help your mother if she was exhausted and overwhelmed. God help her if she didn't understand her kids, God help her if she had no gift for raising children. God help her if she had desires and longings. God help her if she was ever terrified, suicidal, hopeless, bored, confused, furious. God help her if life had disappointed her. God help her if she had an addiction or mental illness. God help her if she ever broke down, God help her it couldn't if she couldn't control her rage. God help her because she fucked up. And if she fucked up in any way, she will forever be branded bad mother. And we will never forgive her for this. So this is my question. Can we take a break today from judging the mothers and show them mercy instead? This doesn't mean that what happened to you at the hands of your mother was okay. This doesn't mean that any pain you have is not real. It just means that maybe her pain was real, too. And if you are yourself a mother, and you never stop judging yourself for how you are failing, can you let it go for one day? Just for one day? Can you drop the knife that you're holding to your own throat? Mercy just for one day? Let us find mercy, mercy on you. Mercy on everyone mercy on the mothers? So have that same feeling to that last question. Like me? I'm like caring for right now. Oh, my God, that is so true. And I really don't and, you know, I know we're gonna call me now. But we talk about this construct of good mother bad mother. And of course, we all want to come to this as our best healthiest self. Right? And that is a practice to do and there's ingredients we need to get there. But at the same time, like this idea of a bad mother of failing our children are you know, I don't think mothers any mothers really failing, I think that they some that are more under resourced than others. I think I love I think Glennon Doyle always says, you know, there's no such thing as other people's children. And I don't just take that as a sense of like, having responsibility for the collective well being of kids everywhere, but also that society also has responsibility and benefit from seeing to the well being of my children as well. Right. Like, I don't think mothers have failed I think society's failed mothers. And there's a bit of an internet like a revolution that little ripple when we say like what I have to say no matter what I feel what I need to express what I need to create, because it makes me feel alive. Like that's not nothing, right? That's everything. That's yeah, I'll send it to you. That's my goal. I go back to that all the time. Kissing like yeah, Oh that's so powerful oh man can we do this to me continue all look Thank you I've had such a wonderful time thank you to all the best with it all and and I'll put the links in the show notes where they can find your amazing website we are mother wild and yet all the best with the book as much as I thank you so much. And by the way, Allison like congratulations and thank you for this incredible space that you've cultivated like it's amazing be able to go through you know, your list of apps, I think it was 35 I feel like I can't remember the exact numbers. And I'm just like the cloud every conversation is so rich and and that it has it means so much so to the thank you and for giving us like the space to be able to share and hopefully connect with. With more moms. It's so valuable. Oh, thank you. No, thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

9 Thea Rossen Australian musician 9 Article # 24 August 2023 When I was young, I thought I’d be a civil engineer and even started a double degree of music and engineering at university. But 2.5 years in (and in spite of all the advice to ‘get a real job’) I decided to pursue music full time and have not looked back since. These days I wear many hats as a freelance portfolio musician, but can generally boil it down to being a percussionist, composer, educator and mum to 2.5 year old Felix. Though I work across a range of genres and disciplines now, I was originally classically trained with a BMus in orchestral percussion from UWA in boorloo/Perth and then a further three years with a scholarship at the Australian National Academy of Music in naarm/Melbourne. In the early days of my study I was working towards getting a job in an orchestra as a percussionist. It is such an exhilarating rush to play a huge cymbal crash or timpani roll at the climax of a Mahler Symphony, and in the music world a job in an orchestra is seen as the pinnacle of achievement. With the goal of that much precision in mind, we worked really hard at ANAM with hours of orchestral, solo and chamber rehearsals, as well as lots of back to back high stress performances. I loved every minute and am so grateful for my time at ANAM. While I was there, I also had my eyes opened to the world of animateuring which literally means to bring music alive for audiences. I presented my first eduction show with the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra in 2017 and have been writing scripts and delivering performances with orchestras around Australia ever since. It is such a privilege to work with some of the country’s most incredible musicians and conductors to connect their work with audiences of thousands of kids and families. Also while I was studying at ANAM, I discovered more about the contemporary ‘art music’ world of percussion and fell in love with the sounds that we find around us every day. As well as all of the more conventional percussion instruments including vibraphone, marimba, drums and gongs, I played music that featured water, paper, flowerpots and scrap metal. I also got really interested in music that involved theatre and gesture with pieces that can require the performer to speak, sing or perform a series of movements while playing. One of my favourite parts of being a musician is curating a performance for audiences and really thinking about all the stages of the experience from the staging to the lights, the concert program and the audience seating. This is how my ensemble Ad Lib Collective was born. At our core, we create transformative performance experiences for audiences that integrate all elements into an immersive event. Our first major show was at the Metropolis Festival at the Melbourne Recital Centre after a residency at the Banff Centre for Arts in Canada. We presented Music for Our Changing Climate which featured an installation of pieces of ice hanging in among the audience, melting and dripping throughout the show. Since then, we have built works in the US and throughout metro and regional Australia with collaborators from electronic music artists, climate scientists, dancers, media artists and more. I am passionate about collaboration and really excited to see where our latest project Conditions of Growth will take us as we work with media artist Sohan Ariel Hayes "I have found going through the process of birthing in a hospital and being a working /creative mum has really opened my eyes to the deep seated patriarchal norms in our world that are so easy to ignore if they don’t directly affect you and the root of mum guilt is one of those." After 7 years in naarm and during the first year of the pandemic my husband I and decided to move back home to boorloo. I was 7months pregnant by the time we made it across the hard WA border. While I miss so much about naarm and being more connected to the eastern states, I love being back home by the beach and with both sides of our family near by. It has also been a huge help to have so much support with Felix from grandparents on both sides, as I have continued to work since he was about 4 months old. Before the pandemic, a large chunk of my freelance life had been travelling both nationally and internationally, I was sometimes away for more than 6 weeks at a time. In hindsight this led to some pretty serious burn out at the end of 2019 and I knew something had to give after that. After Felix was born, I did initially bring him along on some tours with the support of my amazing mother in law. It was a pretty massive juggle managing breast feeding, regular wakes during the night and needing to drive and perform during the day. Now that Felix is a routine-loving toddler, I have found it makes much more sense to leave him at home when I go away for up to 5 days at a time. This is only possible because I have the privilege of an incredibly supportive husband and family around me who not only look after Felix, but also give me the support to acknowledge my work is important and that I am allowed to want to do this. Having said that I am certainly away from home much less than I used to be. Overall I am loving being home much more, but acknowledge that travel is always going to be a part of my work because I am passionate about connection and collaboration nationally and internationally. I am also very aware of the environmental impact of travel and I credit Felix for showing me how to slow down and notice the beauty of the world around. These days I am much more careful about the work I accept and am focussing on setting more boundaries around family and rest time, though it’s an ongoing process When I am not away, I generally have 3 days of childcare support per week from family which fill up with meetings, admin, rehearsals and projects. This leaves little time for dreaming and creating and so that is something I am working towards carving out more time for. I am also really passionate about being present with Felix before he goes to school, so am careful to spend those other two days a week mucking around in the garden or at the zoo with him. The juggle is sometimes quite jarring, and during busy times I am not great at stepping away from my laptop. But I am also grateful that my work life can be so flexible and really look forward to my Felix days after I’ve completed some solid work days. "I credit Felix for showing me how to slow down and notice the beauty of the world around. These days I am much more careful about the work I accept and am focusing on setting more boundaries around family and rest time, though it’s an ongoing process!" In the early days with Felix, so many of the women around me were on maternity leave from their jobs and I found that quite challenging at times because I wasn’t able to turn off from work like they could. But other musician and freelance mums reached out to me when I had Felix and I found a circle of women who were incredibly supportive. It didn’t take much more than a message or a cup of tea (I once had one delivered from a friend in naarm!), but just knowing that there were other people trying to make it work like me, was a huge help. Composer/mum Alice Humphries and I started working together when I was quite early in my postpartum days and it was incredible meeting up with her to improvise on found sounds, percussion and prepared piano. Through the fog of early parenthood it is easy to lose your sense of self, especially as a creative person. So having this connection with a likeminded creative mum was an incredible anchor point for me at a time when I was considering if I even wanted to do music again. We ended up presenting a program of works at the Ellington Jazz club that year and later recorded an album together which we are releasing through Tone List in a few months time. Becoming a mum influenced every part of my life and changed the way I make decisions, divide my time, connect with family and so much more. It redefined my tolerance for time wasting and really honed my drive to create. I am yet to find clear influences in my work connected to parenthood, but I’m not ruling it out for the future! "? a) when it comes to your art and b) general life. Do you feel differently about mum guilt depending on what you are doing? eg art or normal life? Yes/No/Why? Discuss - this is one of my favourite topics What triggers your mum guilt? (if you feel it) Mum guilt is a big one for me! I get it if I take time away from Felix that isn’t work related, even just for a few hours. Though I know I am a better mum and partner having had time away to recharge, I still feel terrible. I also get it when I am away on tour and he’s at home with family, even though I know he is safe and loved. It has certainly become more manageable as he’s grown older. I am curious to understand my own patterns within this narrative as well as the burden that society places on mums as the primary caregiver here. Why is it that fathers (however wonderful/ supportive and progressive) don’t feel the same level of crushing guilt the they go to work for the day, or out to exercise in the evenings? I have found going through the process of birthing in a hospital and being a working /creative mum has really opened my eyes to the deep seated patriarchal norms in our world that are so easy to ignore if they don’t directly affect you and the root of mum guilt is one of those. I find the concept of matrescence fascinating and one that I don’t understand deeply. But I know enough to understand that my transition through pregnancy, labour and into motherhood has changed parts of me forever including the the neural pathways in my brain, my micro biome and my sense of self. This is a pretty wild concept, but one that helps me to fully acknowledge that I am a different person since having a kid. I have no regrets about that and only wish I knew all of this earlier in life! Sometimes I imagine what it would be like to stop everything else and just be a mum 100% of the time. From the outside it looks like a beautiful time watching blades of grass grow and visiting the library every day. I see friends who do this and am in awe of their strength and eternal patience. For me I realised early that I need to be creating and connecting with other artists and audiences through performance creation as well as being present with my son and family to feel whole. There was guilt around this for me but I’m coming to terms with it and know that it makes me a better mum. Is it important to you that your children see that you do more than just the mothering role? I want Felix to see me dreaming big and creating incredible things, so that he can do the same for himself one day. And, importantly to see how supportive his dad is towards me and one day support a female partner, colleague or friend to do the same for herself. My mum was a single parent and did an incredible job, though I am sure there were all sorts of societal pressures on her. She is also a freelance artist and a big inspiration for me in the work that I do. I am so grateful for to her and my mother in law who have both been such an incredible support for us as I have got back into more work. Something else that has had a huge impact for me coming out of the early post partum days and since finishing breastfeeding was to start tracking my cycle and understanding the huge impact that the monthly fluctuation in hormones has on the mind and body. There is a point in the cycle just before ovulation when it has been proven that women can be up to 6 times more productive than at other times, and then of course times when it is important to rest in order to store energy for the next round of the cycle. This concept was completely new to me only 7 months ago and has has a big impact on the way I approach my creativity, overcome imposter syndrome and parent my son. I’m also excited for Felix to grow up with this knowledge of the female cycle as well, so that he can more deeply understand the people around him in his life. If you want to find out more about cycle tracking, the wonderful Lucy Peach has a podcast and a book, Period Queen that I cannot recommend highly enough. I experienced some trauma during my labour and birth and about a year later ended up working with a psychologist to process and understand its effect on me. I had never taken the time to understand and connect with my mental health before, but have since discovered how incredibly important it is to do. Since having Felix I have learnt so much about myself and how I understand and experience emotions and experiences, set boundaries and generally operate in the world. This has had a huge impact on every aspect of my life, but particularly on how I parent Felix and how I approach my creative practice. Contact Thea You can find me on Facebook , my website or you can follow me on instagram . I also have a mailing list that you can join to find out about orchestral education concerts, Ad Lib Collective shows and more. www.thearossen.com/contact www.adlibcollective.org I have an exciting large collaborative work being premiered in September at the Holmes à Court gallery in West Perth. Presented by my ensemble Ad Lib Collective, Conditions of Growth is a collaborative work that brings together exquisite chamber music for piano and percussion by Maurice Ravel with a new word for massed flower pots and bells written by me, Ochre. For this show I am working with media artist Sohan Ariel Hayes and electronic designer Nick Stark who have developed a custom designed system of sensors that pick up sound generated near by and connect to generative animations that are triggered on the screens in the performance space. It is going to be a truly immersive experience for the audience and I cannot wait to go live in just over a month. Tickets are available here BACK

7 Chelsea McCrae Australian podcaster 7 Article # 11 August 2023 Hello! I'm Chelsea McCrae (she/her), a mother, teacher, and, more recently, the founder, producer, and host of my podcast, Definitely Baby. Over the past 4 years, I have developed a deep love for podcasts. However, it was only after becoming a mother that I felt compelled to start my own. During my pregnancy, I found solace in listening to birth stories, and after giving birth, I longed to hear from other parents about their postpartum experiences. As the first among my friends to have a baby, I often felt isolated in those early days of parenthood. Around 3-4 months after giving birth, I experienced a surge of creative energy, leading to the idea of writing a children's book with my best friend and creating this podcast. However, I soon found myself grappling with my anxiety, and parenting became all-consuming for a while. Balancing this with running our own English tuition business, my partner and I resumed classes when our daughter turned 4 months old. Creating the book never took off, but the idea for the podcast stuck. But it took until her first birthday for me to fully dive into recording episodes, and it was another 3-4 months before the pod was launched. Despite having a minor in journalism from my undergraduate studies at Monash University, I quickly realised that I was ill-prepared to produce a podcast as a one-woman show. It has been a tremendous learning experience, but I am grateful for the supportive community it has created and the connections I have made with fellow parents. I finally feel like I'm finding my rhythm with it now. My family consists of myself, my partner Hagan (he/him), and our daughter, Hazel, who is currently 20 months old. Additionally, I am currently 14 weeks pregnant with our second baby, who is expected to join us in late December or early January. Starting a podcast has been an incredible journey, albeit one that has made my weeks incredibly busy. As fellow podcasters can attest, podcasting is a labour of love that offers minimal financial incentives. It often takes years, especially for those without a preexisting social media following, to monetize their podcasts. When I first embarked on this venture, I naively believed that growing a listenership organically would be easier and that my podcast would gain traction more rapidly. Currently, I follow a scheduling pattern where I book 2-3 interviews for a few weeks, followed by a few weeks without interviews. This approach allows me to dedicate my podcasting time to editing the recorded episodes. With about 3-4 days already occupied by work for our tuition business, my weeks are already quite busy, and I have to find a way to fit podcasting into my schedule. Hazel starting daycare recently has provided me with some much-needed ease and flexibility, and I'm thrilled to see how much she enjoys it now. However, there are moments when I worry that the additional workload brought on by podcasting may take away time with Hazel. I question whether it's truly worth it. But then, a heartwarming message from a listener or a guest expressing their gratitude for their experience after recording an episode reminds me of the power of sharing our stories and reinforces the purpose behind creating this podcast. Looking back, I wish I had known the true extent of the challenges and time commitment involved, sometimes with minimal perceived gains. Also, I realise now that I should have conducted more thorough research to understand the vast number of parenting podcasts already in existence. Although I initially thought I was filling a unique niche, I have since discovered numerous podcasts with a similar format to mine. However, this realisation is not necessarily negative, as sharing our stories and shedding light on these topics is an invaluable endeavour. For anyone considering starting a podcast, I highly recommend conducting extensive research, connecting with individuals in the field (fellow podcasters are often willing to share their experiences and answer questions), and identifying a niche that aligns with your values. To be honest, I often find myself editing portions of episodes or working on social media tasks after Hazel has gone to sleep. While I'm becoming more efficient in the podcasting process over time, I recognise the need to establish new methods and dedicated time for this work. It's crucial to avoid encroaching on my already limited "me" time to ensure long-term sustainability. Also, being pregnant again requires me to be kinder to myself and seek ways to lighten my workload, particularly in the coming months as I near my due date. I've considered the possibility of hiring someone to assist me with editing, mastering episodes, or creating social media content. However, given the current circumstances, it's not feasible at the moment. Perhaps in the future, this could be a step I take to continue producing this beautiful content. I have had the opportunity to connect with numerous amazing individuals who also host podcasts. The podcasting community has been incredibly welcoming and generous in sharing advice and their personal experiences. From what I have observed, balancing parenting, work, and podcasting is a significant challenge, and it seems that everyone else faces similar struggles as well. I have drawn significant inspiration from the experiences and advice shared by fellow podcasters in my niche. Their valuable tips have guided me in implementing time-saving strategies for my podcast and have made it easier to integrate into my weekly routine. "I do recognize the importance of maintaining my individuality. It's crucial for me to engage in activities that nurture my well-being, such as staying active, spending time with friends, and pursuing personal interests. These aspects contribute to my sense of fulfilment and enable me to be the best version of myself as a mother to Hazel." As mentioned earlier, the podcast community has been incredibly encouraging and supportive. Even though most of my friends do not have children themselves, they have been wonderfully supportive throughout this journey. A friend who has their own podcast generously taught me everything about setting up an RSS feed, scheduling episodes, and the process of recording. My partner contributed by composing the intro tune and recording it with a producer friend. That same friend also mastered the initial 4 or 5 episodes of the podcast and provided valuable tips on sound quality. Additionally, another wonderful friend designed the original logo, and a talented photographer friend captured beautiful photos of Hazel and me, one of which I have used for the new logo. Lastly, I am grateful for all my amazing friends with kids who agreed to be part of the first 6 episodes that I recorded prior to the release, as well as all the wonderful people who continue to share their stories on the podcast. I couldn't have started the podcast or continued with it without the support network I have. It has played a crucial role in motivating me to persist and has alleviated a significant amount of pressure in the initial stages. Their encouragement and assistance have had a positive impact on my work, art, and overall creativity. Absolutely. I personally experienced the concept of "mum guilt" during my early parenting journey, especially when I didn't have close friends who were going through the same challenges. Connecting with my local New Parent's Group and spending time with other mums helped me realise that comparison, shame, and guilt were common emotions in parenting. Initially, I felt inadequate compared to others who seemed to have everything figured out regarding sleep, feeding, and routines. However, as we got to know each other on a more personal level, I discovered that we were all struggling and none of us had it all together. One triggering factor for my "mum guilt" was questions about Hazel's sleep habits, as it was a particularly challenging topic for me in the first year. Additionally, when I started working again for our own business when Hazel was four months old, I felt guilty for not being with her enough, especially during evening classes when she would cry for me as I left for work. In the early months of Hazel's life, leaving her would often trigger intense "mum guilt" for me. It was challenging for me to enjoy myself or have "me time" because I constantly worried about her crying, being hungry, or needing comfort. However, as she grew more independent after her first birthday, I started to find it easier to enjoy time away from her, making parenthood feel less overwhelming and more manageable. Regarding my creativity and starting the podcast, the transition felt relatively smooth. While it can be overwhelming at times and requires a significant amount of work, the fact that the podcast's topic is deeply rooted in parenting helps alleviate some of my "mum guilt" when I invest time into it. The only concern I have is occasionally worrying that it may take away more time from Hazel. In summary, "mum guilt" has influenced my early parenting journey, particularly when comparing myself to others. However, as I formed connections with fellow parents and gained more confidence in my abilities, the intensity of "mum guilt" diminished. Starting the podcast has provided a creative outlet that aligns with parenting, and although it can be demanding, it doesn't trigger the same level of guilt as other aspects of life. Becoming a mother brought about a significant transformation in my sense of identity. This change was amplified by the circumstances surrounding my pregnancy, as it came at a time when I was completing my Masters degree and navigating a new relationship. Motherhood has unexpectedly provided me with a sense of purpose that I didn't realise I was missing. It has anchored me and instilled a newfound confidence within me. I now embrace the role of "mother" wholeheartedly and it has become a central aspect of my identity. While I don't specifically resonate with the idea of needing to be "more than a mother," I do recognize the importance of maintaining my individuality. It's crucial for me to engage in activities that nurture my well-being, such as staying active, spending time with friends, and pursuing personal interests. These aspects contribute to my sense of fulfilment and enable me to be the best version of myself as a mother to Hazel. As she grows older, I want to demonstrate the value of self-care and pursuing passions, and I hope to inspire her through my actions and the values I hold. Starting this podcast has become a significant passion of mine. I firmly believe in the power of sharing stories and creating a supportive and inspiring resource for other parents and individuals alike. I take immense pride in the effort and time I invest in building this podcast and fostering a supportive community. It's something I hope my children can someday admire in me, as it aligns with the values I strive to instil in them. The work of a mother, in general, is ridiculously underrated. The paid maternity leave we are given is so minimal, and women often take off more time than their work allows due to personal preferences. Consequently, there is a significant period without contributing to superannuation. Motherhood is, by far, the hardest, most time-consuming, and relentless job I have ever experienced. As for my podcast, it does not generate any income; in fact, I spend close to $100 per month on recording and editing platforms. The prospect of monetizing it seems distant, and this long-term impact affects how I perceive its value. While it remains my passion project, it demands a substantial portion of my time, leaving me uncertain about its sustainability going forward. Nevertheless, I must continue to nurture my love for it. I firmly believe that the work of artists, especially mothers who are also artists, is highly undervalued by society. "I aspire to model a range of values and qualities to my daughters, including financial and cultural independence, as well as the importance of self-discovery, empathy, and embracing their unique interests and aspirations." I was raised by a single mother, and due to her status as a single parent, she had no choice but to continue working from when I was a young age. She worked as an independent midwife, which meant that there were times when I stayed with family members or friends while she attended births. As I grew older, I even had the opportunity to accompany her to some of these births. Since she was self-employed and had a flexible schedule, she was able to spend a significant amount of time with me. Additionally, we had the chance to travel and also moved towns and states a lot. These experiences of being raised by a working single mother instilled in me a strong sense of independence. I have always rejected the notion of the heteronormative, patriarchal perspective that perpetuates traditional societal norms and expectations, assuming rigid gender roles where mothers are primarily responsible for parenting, cooking, and cleaning. As a result, it is extremely important to me that my children see both Hagan and me as equals in terms of our careers and the shared responsibilities of parenting. This value holds particular significance in raising my daughters. I aspire to model a range of values and qualities to my daughters, including financial and cultural independence, as well as the importance of self-discovery, empathy, and embracing their unique interests and aspirations. My podcast, Definitely Baby , is available on most major platforms. Simply search 'Definitely Baby' and it should come up. You can also find me on Instagram @definitelybabypodcast, where I share beautiful photos of our weekly guests, segments from episodes, and updates about my life and the podcast. Each week, I release a main episode featuring interviews with different parents, exploring their beautiful and unique parenting journeys. I ask each guest a similar set of questions to capture a diverse range of stories on the same topics. Additionally, I occasionally release bonus episodes where I delve into interesting topics with experts. I'm also excited to introduce two new upcoming segments.The first segment features casual chats with mums and parents discussing various topics related to parenthood. Think of it as eavesdropping on a parent's group catch-up and gossip. The second segment, which I'm incredibly thrilled about, focuses on VBAC (Vaginal Birth After Caesarean). As I'm personally planning for a VBAC later this year, I'm deeply passionate about providing a resource to empower others to make informed choices. I already have lined up a few exciting experts as guests, and I believe it will be an incredibly special series. So, for anyone out there who is considering whether VBAC is the right option for them, planning for one, or knows someone who is, keep your eyes peeled for this upcoming series! It's going to be a valuable resource. Contact Chelsea Links: Spotify / Apple Podcasts / Instagram BACK

Judy Richards Australian mixed media artist S2 Ep66 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) My guest today is Judy Richards, an artist, mother of 3 and grandmother of 8 from Mount Gambier Australia, and the first grandmother I've hosted on the podcast. Judy has been creative her whole life, she always loved to colour in and draw and learned to crochet as a 10 year old. Her mother would always buy always buy a few balls of wool for her when she did her groceries, and Judy would make blankets for everyone, brothers and for her dad's truck. As a 13 year old Judy learned to sew on her mum's old treadle sewing machine, her first major sewing project was a high school skirt, because mum couldn't afford to buy one. She used to make most of her clothes in her late teens and when she had children she would sew most of their clothes. In the late 80s and throughout the 90s Judy taught herself to paint, no social media back those days or YouTube to learn on, so Judy dove into the books. In 1995 Judy opened her own art studio called Omega Rose Crafts and Gifts, she painted, made dolls, quilts, you name it, Judy did it... she'd be up to all hours of the morning. The studio closed after 2.5 years when her husband's business circumstances changed, so Judy started selling at the local markets, and did so every Saturday for 7 years. By 2003 she was feeling so burnt out, Around 2010 Judy got back into drawing and penwork and occasionally painting, selling a bit but doing it more to keep busy and she loves giving them away. She's still very creating today, her favourites being crocheting and painting. As 40 year old Judy did some more study and became a nail technician, still utilising her creativity but on nails. After working from home for 20 years, and feeling the effects of covid on her business, Judy is now looking for her next challenge. Judy lives by the motto, If you don't know how to do something, learn it and try it, and you can't say you can't do something, until you have tried it! This episode contains discussions around suicide, depression, alcoholism, anxiety and domestic violence Judy has experienced many heartbreaks in her family, losing 2 brothers, one to suicide and the other alcoholism. Judy feared depression for a long time and used her creativity to keep her busy and would lean into it if she wasn't feeling mentally strong. Today you'll hear chatter and background noise from Judy's 3 year old grandson Leo. Follow Judy on instagram Connect with the podcast - instagram / website Christian Author Francine Rivers Judy's work in progress painting If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. My guest this week is Judy Richards. Judy is an artist, a mother of three and a grandmother of eight from Mount Gambia in Australia. The first grandmother that I've had on the podcast, Judy has been creative her whole life. She always loved to coloring and draw, learn to crochet as a 10 year old and her mother would always buy a few balls of wool for her when she did her groceries. Judy loved making blankets for everyone in the family. As a 13 year old Judy learn to sew on her mom's old treadle sewing machine. Her first major project was a high school skirt. Because mum couldn't afford to buy one. She used to make most of her clothes in her late teens. And when she had her own children, she would say most of their clothes to in the late 80s. And throughout the 90s. Judy taught herself to paint no social media back in those days or YouTube to learn on. So Judy dove into the books. In 1995. She opened her own art studio called omega rose crafts and gifts where she taught art and painted made dolls. Quilts. You name it, Judy did it. She'd be up until all hours of the morning. The studio closed after two and a half years when her husband's business circumstances changed. So Judy started selling at the local markets and did so every Saturday. By 2003. She was feeling so burnt out. Around 2010. Judy got back into drawing and pen work and occasionally painting selling a bit but doing it more to keep busy and she loves giving them away. She's still very creative today, her favorites being crocheting and painting. As a 40 year old, Judy did some more study and became a nail technician. Still utilizing her creativity but on clients nails. After working from home for 20 years, and feeling the effects of COVID on her business. Judy is now looking for her next challenge. This episode contains discussions around suicide, depression, alcoholism, and anxiety and domestic violence. Judy has experienced many heartbreaks in her family, losing two brothers one to suicide and the other to alcoholism. Judy feared depression for a long time and uses her creativity to keep her busy. And she leans into it if she isn't feeling mentally strong. Julie lives by the motto if you don't know how to do it, learn it. Try it. You can't say you can't do something until you've tried it. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a great list of international resources can be accessed by the website, www dot Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you hear on today's podcast is from my trio, LM Joe which is myself, my sister Emma and her husband John. And we play new age and ambient music. I hope you enjoy today's episode. And throughout the podcast today. You'll hear from a little visitor Judy's three year old grandson Leo. Thank you so much for coming on duty. Yeah, it's such a pleasure to meet you again. But to be in your home today, this is the first time I've actually taking my gear out and not being in my studio. So this is very exciting. It's exciting for me to lie to you and that's funny because that's what is going on. Yeah. I've watched a couple of your things. Yes, that's what it is. And that's the truth isn't it? Like nothing ever goes perfectly how you expect it and dance and that's why I think you know, we live in a world and everybody expects everything to be perfect. Your Home has to be perfect. Life has to be perfect. You have to have the perfect job, you have to have everything perfect. That's not life. Life doesn't work like that. I didn't grow up in the most perfect environment growing up as a child. But I had a mother who loved us so much. And even though my dad left, and my mom was me and my four brothers, and it wasn't easy, because she was a very sick lady. But she taught me who I want it to be. Yeah, I wanted to be like her, or wanting to be that woman that would. I'm a very forgiving person. I don't hold grudges, because I just I think life's worth it. And she taught me about being creative. Like, you know, she, well, that's crushering at 19 years old. Yeah. It's my brother's a blanket, manner blanket. And she would do the groceries and she'd bring home a couple balls a wall, that the next one like, you know, and then by the time I was 13, I was dressmaking. So I've been creative, my whole life. Just doesn't stop. I can't sit down. That's terrible. That's part of life, isn't it? Yeah. Well, it's not. It's not a bad sort of habit to have really, you know, to keep yourself busy and active minds. And I believe, you know, people go, Oh, I can't do that. You haven't tried. That's the biggest thing. My whole life. I like a challenge. In my artwork, I like a challenge. I'll try something totally new. And I thought, What am I doing that, you know, I never let it get to me and, and then, you know, I've got children, so and now they're out, and now I've got grandchildren and but it's just, it's just life, you just got to make the most of it. And I guess then you would have, it would have been important for you to instill that those sort of ideals into your own children growing up. And I'm really proud of who my daughters have become, you know, life's not always easy, you know, and I and I see that in our lives. And I've watched a couple of dollars struggle here in life at times, and I just encourage them to keep going. And, and my youngest daughter, Megan, I always say to her, he remind me of my mom, you're stronger than you think. And you'll nothing will get you there now, but you'll get through it like you know, and I think that's what you've got to look at in life that you can allow things to pull you down. And that's where depression can come in. Or you can allow life just to fight for what you believe in. And I've always believed in my marriage, I've always fought through it and we've had some really tough times but and instill that into my kids it's not perfect think this is the thing these days with all the social media that's on the same now like everyone shows that you know the the perfect photos and the perfect snapshots in life and it's not reality. It's just that tiny moment. That's right, you know, but then if you're feeling a bit insecure or you know you're you're a bit down on yourself or your circumstances that can make a massively negative difference to absolutely and I think the worst part about social media is how you look. It's like if you don't look a certain way, you're not good enough for society. That's not how it is. Now I get a lot of ladies that always look nice. It's not that hard. Like I have a skirt and a jumper on today like we all dressed up. It's just who I am. I like clothing and I like to look nice, but it's not hard to actually nearly 90% of my class come out of Kmart yeah It is not hard. I used to dress Mike all the time when I had my children. We lived on one wage, so there wasn't money to spend on clothing. And so my son che was sitting on my kitchen table all the time. My husband got so sick of it that he built me around the best. We could have the kitchen table for you, especially when I was being creative. And I was doing the markets and didn't have the social media that we have today. So I when I started painting, and then I had friends asked me to teach so they're not started teaching. And then in 97, I owned art studio, and it was called omega rose crafts and gifts. And so two and a half years, I hit that studio. And you know, I dropped the kids off to school, and I'll go to the studio and spend the day there. And either I would get to pick them up, or Pete's dad would pick them up, drop them off at the studio and they would go into their classroom and do their schoolwork or that go to their grandparents, either one and but it was a really good experience. For me it was about learning how to run my own business. The goods and the bads. Yeah, because there's always that. And then my husband's business partner decided he wanted out. So we had to buy our main breadwinner. And so my studio had to close. And then I was like, What am I gonna do with all this stuff was crazy. I had so much. So I went out to Fletcher job markets for five years. And so every Saturday, I'll say every Saturday for five years. And so I kept making stuff, making stuff making stuff. And then it came to the point where I got burnt out. And I think that's why now when I come to create the creative side of things. Sometimes I'll start something and I'll go out and start selling there. But the last couple of years, I've just liked the handout, I'm not doing that anymore. Because you've burned yourself out. And if you're not careful, that desire that you enjoyed, becomes a headache. And I loved crochet, or crochet blankets, and I sell some. But if I don't, I don't care. Yeah. There's no pressure. I just finished one I thought I had a solid it's not so I'm not fast. It's in my color. So I can always keep it in the box. I love giving away stuff as presents. When the grandchildren started coming along, I started crocheting and making fresh toys. Love it. Love it might I might have made hates. And I did a couple of markets. And one market I did a couple of years ago. And people are just like, Oh no, that's to do I'm not paying that is hours and days. And I'm just like, and me. I do stuff to make money. I do stuff because I enjoy it. But if I can sell something, it's fine. But I never put a high price on something. So I just figured that's the price I've put on it. Either pay for it or go with that. Yeah, yeah, I think that that's something I'm noticing a lot on social media at the moment is that people who make pain making things are actually you know, standing up for themselves and saying this isn't mass produced in some far off country by people who don't get paid very much. You know, this is like you said, it takes so long it's you know, you've got all these years of skills behind you that you'd build up. You shouldn't feel like you have to justify what you what you're asking for. It's like Dammit, this is what it costs you know, like you said you're not putting like a tremendous mark on top of it. It's like nine manufacturing materials and just a little bit extra. Yep. Yeah, I'm happy with that. I you know, kids are all grown up and gone. Now. I've got eight grandchildren and eight grandchildren, but only have three here. And I just say I've got little Leo today and he's just he's just my baby. You just loves me. It's just my grandma but you know and the rest of the in Queensland so that's really hard because I don't get to see them that often. But we keep in contact with one another But you know, and having that enjoyment with your family is so important, because before you know I've gone yeah. And I don't have much of my family left, because my mom died a long time ago. And I've lost a couple of brothers. And so I was always I've got my girls now, because I've been 20 years. And Megan spent on four and a half years. And I'm glad parts here, she nearly left but she came back. And she's just finishing I got nowhere. So at least I have someone but you don't realize how important family is. Until you don't have it, you sort of take it for granted a little bit. Don't ever let that just there. And they'll always be there. And then when they're not. Yeah, that's it. Lot My wife has some very nice kids. But he sounds like you've got the right attitude, though to, you know, to keep going, you have to believe. And my faith in God is the biggest part of my life. And I stepped away from it for a really long time. And I watched my life full and a whole year, I watched my marriage and he broke up quite a few times. And only a few years ago, I decided it was like there was something missing. And I decided I know what's missing. That's my faith in God. And, and it's strong, and it's what has kept me going over my life. And as I shared with you, I've watched depression, destroy my family, my brothers. I had a brother, eight years ago commit suicide. And him and I were not quite twins, but near enough. We're only 10 months apart. And so him and I were extremely close. And so that just rocked my world. I thought losing my mum when she was only 48 rocked my world until my brother died. So if you just have to. And people say to me, you don't get it, dude, you've never suffered it. No, I have lived it. Yeah, I have. I've been that other person sitting there living with it with all my brothers. And I've had two to three girlfriends that I have suffered extremely, really bad. I've got a really close friend that's going through lots right now. And I'm just there for her. You know, you can't and sometimes lose people. I lost one friend. It got to the point it was destroying me. Yeah. So you have to be careful. You do have to protect yourself. When it's your family. That's a little bit hard sometimes, but you do it. You have to go. Sorry. Yeah, you know, my brother's get that one that I've got here. It's not well, and the other one needs to wait. So it's just my two baby brothers. I've got left. And they suffer really, really bad. And it's really hard watching it. It's really hard watching it. So for many years, I had a fear of depression. The fear was, am I going to come down with that to watching my dad, and all my brothers pay for all attempted suicide. And it's it's heartbreaking. And so my faith is what has kept me. I truly believe my faith has kept me strong. Because I don't have a bad day. We all have bad days. And what do I do when I have a bad day? I pick up a book or I go into my painting like pick up the chromosomes that project I focus on something totally different. Yeah, get your mindset changed around My motto in life is today my mum was because she was so sick. My mum was a chronic asthmatic. From the day she was born to the day she died. And, and she was a very sick lady, but her motto in life was tonight. She would say, Well, yesterday, it's done. What can you do about it? Yep, don't let it destroy him. So what do we all do? Everybody likes the pest, control them, destroy them. And then we all stress about tomorrow. It hasn't even happened. Like, you know, someone asked me once, but how do you make plans? Okay, I'll make plans. That's That's simple. I don't stress about God, is this gonna happen? Is that gonna happen? I don't, I don't focus on that. I focus on today, I enjoy my day. Even if I don't do anything, and I'm sharing all day doesn't matter. I enjoy my day. And having eight grandchildren. Because being a grandmother is totally different from being on with your friends. Yeah. I loved being a mom. That was that something I absolutely loved. But having grandchildren. It's Sorry. It's what's so special. So special. I was there when the first two were born. And, and not being around five of them is pretty hard sometimes. Yeah. But the three that I have here, I spend as much time as I can. And I've been looking after Leo, every fortnight since he was born. So both could have some her time. And I just love it. I'll set their places like Grandma, Grandma Grandma that's so sweet, really sweet. When the kids were growing up and you're making you're making clothes, what are the things we're doing? At that time when the kids were growing up? I had just started teaching myself to paint. I tried to cut the class and send them thinking, oh, that didn't teach me anything. So I was determined to learn and how do you learn back in the old days, we never had YouTube. books, books, books. I just had a cupboard full of books and so teach myself to paint. Yeah, it was just high time. I don't know if you've ever heard about high tide. Yeah, we used to be at a Baptist church. Yeah, that was the go to. For us mums, yes mums. And it's quite sad. That's not around anymore, because I think there'd be a lot of young mums here that would benefit from it. But it was great because they had all these different craft groups. And so each month, you'd go from one to another to another. So you're learning different techniques. So you would learn something new. And like, you know how the modeling clay earrings are really been thought yeah, yes. Do I come back then? Yeah, I still got a brooch that I made. And, you know, just learning new things. I was always wanting to learn new things. And you know, even in dressmaking, you would learn that you'd say something and I'm like, by looks interesting, or I want to have a go there. And I remember my girlfriend Tracy, she actually gets in Queensland so so we still keep in touch. But she was going as well and then we'd get asked to teach. Yes, like, Whoa, dude, you can do that really? Well. Do you want to teach for us? I suppose. And I never we did these puff paint jump or year? Yeah, I asked my girls about oh my goodness. I didn't try Cisco. So I still talk about those puff paint jumpers. But so far, I mean, but the things we used to do, yeah, but ya know, they were good. times, like, you know, and I just think today I got a lot of social media, I watch a lot of home decor shows. And what, what inspires me now I see a lot of women out there building their own furniture and doing their houses. And I think that's amazing. Because I think you've got to have the mindset. Well, I don't know how to talk, but I'm going to try. Yes. And I think that is a really important mindset. Because as I say to people, you can't say you can't do something like this, you have to. I'm teaching myself watercolor. That's a whole new kettle of fish. I had a friend round the other day, my husband was away for the weekend. And so we did a bit of watercolor. And she said, Oh, look how much you've done. Do and I'm finding it easier, the more I practice is practice it. And it's like anything you do the same. You just can't say you can't do something. Because, you know, because there's a lot of people out there today, I suppose in a kid's generation. Don't know how to sell a button. Don't know how to cook properly. Because that guy can't do it. Yeah. Get out and try. Like, I'm learning to sew, I made my school uniform. Oh, wow. Because my dad didn't want to spend the money that it was gonna cost because even if cabling just strike gambling school skirts, I went to grant was still like $70. And back then that was a lot of money. And so I had this horrible skirt that I have plastic wasted. The boys would pick on me that pull it down. It was terrible. And so my mum brought some gambling, and that's I use it in my class at school. And my school I put a zip in a pencil case when I can make a skirt law, like, you know, for asking my teacher to I have to make a pencil case. And she said yes, it's a part of the class. I said, is it about a zip? She said, Yeah, well, I'm making my skirt for school. Why can't Why didn't zip in that? And she's like, Oh, well, there's no reason why. So I went from there and from there but my dress making just yet so it was good that you your teacher recognized, you know that you have that curiosity and that interest and supportive that you know, I think that's important. Yeah, to do that. Yeah, absolutely. I've taught a lot of things or these, you know, I've helped people to paint draw, or I've tried to question in class that was not easy. Yeah. Because so many different people at different stages. And I remember one class of you I just didn't stop I was just like, you pretty full on. A lot of people say, Oh, God teach us how to make those toys. And oh, can you crochet back to me, where do you think? A few. I so it's really robust, isn't he? Yeah. He's beautiful. So I'm doing just a few plank beers at the moment. Yeah. When my youngest daughter had a baby this year and I did her HIPAA bids and triple B's and stuff like that. And because I crush it baby blankets, I'm gonna do a couple of baby funds. And hopefully I can sell those so because that Not something you can just identify isn't it? Yeah, it's like when I was a baby, like I'm in the, the era of, of all that handmade, everything was made with love and special individual pieces. And then everything's just called mass produced company, that sort of stuff. And I feel like people are craving for that. And individual saving is by this very long. Yeah, I grow up so sleazy. And I think, also, like my mum used to say, back in her day, and we were dressed like baby babies for quite a long time. Yeah, yeah. held here in the zone. Actually gorgeous close out the best unless the other day looking at something kind of like, Oh, my goodness, I need another baby. Or I often get like that with girls clothes, because I've got two boys. And I've got a nice, so if I ever see something curious, Oh, get that for Ruby, you know, like into bike? Shop for boys kids. Yeah, so, but it's just crazy. Time just flies like, kind of 60s Just like I was about to turn 40 next year. And it's like, if you're 40. I'm the late 60s. Where's that time. But I think life is special. When I turned 50 I celebrated my 50th not just for me, but for my mom who never made 50 Because I thought she never got to this momentum of turning 50 which every year is upon. And a lot of people don't like to celebrate their birthdays, but it's an important part of our life. You know, it's just, and that milestone of 50. Like you said your mom's 48 Like, did that when you turned 48? Did you sort of go? Like, yeah, I noticed when Pete turned 48 Because he's a couple of years older than me. But then when I turned 48 online and see my mom because of her next sickness looks probably 1015 years older than what she was. So I'm like, 48 so young. Like it's so young. And why was unable to me it felt like it was only just beginning. Like it Yes. I'm coming up 60 In fact, nowadays we want to put 60 was really Oh, no, no, sorry, people. It's funny because I was the same I used to think 16 was really old. And then when Mum turned 66 It's not like anything. Like literally, like you said, you said you're not even you're not even like you hopefully, you know over halfway when you're 50 But you know, it's like, I don't I it's just did you have grandmothers used to dress older or subtle? Like, what? What might you do? Really all right now. I'm in coloring my hair for probably five, six years now. I just got it every now and then in summer. I put a couple of highlights in it, but that's about it. Because the cost factor is just getting too expensive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to say but then when I think about it, I look at peace parents and like Pete states money coming up 94 Just to kind of just raise any still leaves home, so it's a good effort. It's mum died. I think she was 86. And yeah, I think she always looked a lot older than what she was. I think it does. I think today we dress how we feel, you know? And when they go by you can't dress like that anymore because you're like the other 60 I'm gonna wear what I want. I'm not I haven't got the skin out everywhere and you know, I'm not trying to be like on 21 But yeah, that's what I want to dress like a no way either. Yeah, yeah. I reckon you know how everyone used to keep like the old ladies used to get that blue REITs and that here that they get like set they'll get their permits. Yes. Yeah, I reckon that had something to do with it. Definitely not gonna do. I wonder if that I've just like disappear out of the world. And it's not doing When I was talking before about it's never too late to learn new things. I have a camera now ticket 14. Yeah, I was actually I was gonna ask you that, you know, text sorry. Yeah, I, like I said, my price started to burn me out because it was like, I'd be up from one o'clock, two o'clock three o'clock in the morning making stuff ready for the market and stuff like that. And I remember I was doing a big fate I did a big fair, Tennyson, when they used to have a big fairs. And we had another one come up and I was just going to do this. And it was sold out in a day. Wow. And we have two days. And I'm like, so I was up till four o'clock in the morning, trying to get more stuff done to take the next day just to look like it was something there. And I remember saying to my husband, I don't think I can do this anymore. He said, Well, I said I'm just exhausted. I just can't do it. And the joys probably tape been taken out of it. Because it became too much of a job. Not an enjoyment. And so I get Okay, guys that I'm paying my now tech, she was going overseas and she said you never thought about being an outer and I just thought, oh hell no, I'm not working like you do. Anyway, she said to me, it's not like that. She said, You don't have to OSI. I'm in Adelaide and my train. And and yeah, I've worked from home for 20. Next January 20 years. COVID actually really affected my business. Yeah. In a big why. And then Pete and I went on a holiday and that affected my business. And in the end. You know, I think I think it's time time for a change. Yeah, so Yeah, John out, I'm gonna do something. Oh, yeah, I've got my eyes out on some filling work. You know. But yeah, I've got a few clients still, and I'm happy to stick with them for a little bit longer. And I know the time will come that I'll give it up because the body My back is not the best. And from leaning over 20 isolating. So I'm quite enjoying, like this work. I've only got four clients. That's fine. Like, you know, so I just enjoy it. And that's why I've really enjoyed the last few years of not being so busy and have to spend more time with my grandchildren to help out when it's needed if she's got to go into their business and do stuff. I mean, Pete just because my hat we sold we sold our main business five years ago. And so he works for the guy that brought it but he didn't go off when every law Yeah, so you know, last year we did two months traveling Australia in front of COVID. Everywhere we were when we left and to do that, we'll get to Queensland Raquel guys, Mum. Watch you guys were in lockdown. I saw that on the news. Like we've just got out of there. And the next place Oh my goodness to get stuck in our springs for a little bit. But yeah, it was crazy. We're just in front of it. I'm glad I'm glad life is going back to a bit of normality. There was more damage done in mental health than what there was in sickness. You know? It's just crazy and mental health. There's not enough support network. My brother has shared a lot with me about his and why he has been treated at that hospital is appalling. Not not being listened to. Nobody listened. As to nobody wants to believe it is all in your head. Yes, people that's mental illness, yes, get fired and do not have the support in mental health where it is needed. Like I said, I've lost two brothers due to mental health. One was so solid, and the other one had been an alcoholic since he was in his 20s. And I watched him wither away. And it was just really, really sad. byte of memory 49 They didn't get to 50. So, you know, and watching my baby brother, who lives here who is not well, and he shared some stuff with me other day. And when he left, I cried. Because I can't do anything. It's not my place to do anything. But it is absolutely the system's place. Yeah, just putting the right systems to help these people that need that help. And we live in a world it's all about money. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's something frustrates me so much. Everything is driven by money. Every single thing is driven by money. Unless you got money, you can't do nothing do and it's like, come on up. It's just crazy. I don't ever regret staying home being a mom. I loved being a mom. And I didn't go into the workforce and to make school so she was seven. So I was taught my girls, there's two things in life, you're going to sacrifice something. And I say it's going to be your family or it's going to be finance, you cannot have both. You cannot have lots of money, and be working, working, working. And expect to have the most amazing relationship. And I know there are some families that don't. But I know there are a lot of families out there that struggle. And I know, I remember my kids growing up, and I remember hearing their friends saying to them, You guys are so lucky that your mum is home. And their parents, both their parents say they could get whatever they wanted. Their parents brought them on it. It's not about that. It's about the quality time that you have with your kids. And, and I know their families out there because of the cost of living today and the cost of houses today. It isn't the best paint Nystrom to live. We the mortgage might not have been much back then. But neither was our high factor. Yeah, that's it's all relative. It's all relative like today. The pay packets are big, but your mortgage is a big. It's all the same packing line and pizza day. Like I've been in this house for 37 years. Yeah, this is the house he built when he was 23. Like, you know, I might have a lot now. But we've been here for a long time. Yeah. Let's see. It was instant. No, yeah. Worked out and made sacrifices. When I met Kate Kate heavies house when I met him. We had two beanbags in the lounge room. Yeah, we had beanbag, a bed, and a table. And that was it. There was no extras, there was no fancy stuff. And even as we're having our kids, we brought a lot of secondhand furniture, because the money just wasn't there. So you went without. And with my creative side, and during the markets, I brought some of my furniture from my house. And that was a good feeling because I'm not working. But I brought that yeah, it's such a good feeling. And, you know, but your life's not about money. You need money to live. But we don't, you know, you can't take it when you die. Nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow. And so I really feel that life. Sometimes, sometimes I believe that life needs to go back to the basics. teaching in schools need to go back to the basics. Yep. Everything needs to go technology. It has its it has its purpose in life. And it's great and lies but Perth technology has already, I've noticed has destroyed humanity in a big way. I believe that kids play and use their imaginations. It's got to have technology in their hands. You know, and it's really really, really sad. Lee Our grandson, he's just at that stage where he wants to grab the phone all the time. And he knows they're all in grandma's house. The phone's off limits. Yeah. None of my grandkids have ever touched my phone. Yeah, it is off limits. But I see what kids do with phones. And we just live in that world of that technology that they've got their faces in the phones or their tablets. Yeah, and I think, pick up a book. I love books, because they're awesome. There's some you're seeing the other day, because when I have people on the podcast that often send me their books if they're an author. And I think this is so good that bosses like I like music school online so much. But now records are coming back. You know, people still want things in the hands. You know, it's almost like projecting that so as the stage that pokes it was when the Kabu tablets come out to read books. Yeah. And I do use it at certain times, even on my phone, I use it at certain times. And that's when we're traveling. And I haven't really taken away the books. So that the purpose Yeah, but you can't read a book in your head. Yeah, there's no doubt about it. I just finished a book at the moment. And it was amazing and awesome, was away. And I was like, that's like yesterday, I was planning to do something for boys. And we went to the pub for lunch. And then I came home and I was laying down on Kashmir, and I'm like, I'm gonna have a man of that today. Don't do that. Yeah. And I laid on the couch. And I woke up at 530. And I'm like, Oh, my goodness, I slept through and it was crazy. So and then I didn't go to sleep till late last night. The concept of mum guilt is something that I'd like to talk to all my moms about on the show. And I guess I can throw it over to you to share your thoughts on that. We've had that before. My mum guilt has been Did I do it? Right? I say sometimes I'll say some struggles my kids go through. And I was quite a protective mum. One my five. But two because of where I came from. So I had an abusive father. So I went through a lot. So I probably tried to over protect my kids safe for a while. And, you know, I just made sure that I tried to spend as much time with my kids and do the kid things. And so most of the time my creative side didn't connect to them. Yeah, right. Yeah. So it was once they were in bed, then some shaman come out, or the paint brushes that come out. That when they were young definitely spent lots and lots of time. Because once they're at school, you have all the time in the world to do all the things that I needed. But what our little what I wanted to make sure. And then when they become teenagers, you do you have that monkey cool in the sense of Did I do it right? Did I overstep boundaries? Or, you know, I remember I have a lady asked me, What do you had three daughters? How do you do it? Like I remember, they're all different. None of them are the same. You can't treat them as the same because that individuals remember what you did. Because they're going to do it. So it doesn't matter. You can go well I did this and my kids are not going to do that. And guess what people? Yes, they are not going to tell you why girls have told me so many things now that they're adults. Am I happy about it? No. But you know it everyone's life. And yeah, we survived to house three teenage girls. Yeah, we didn't have two bathrooms. At the time. So far, my husband has been around him because he's got three sisters or goodness even the animals are females you're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I was in New Haven. As a mature woman these days, when I talk to younger mums, the biggest thing I say to women off today, don't feel guilty, like the mum guilt, or you no need to spend more time with them, or I haven't done this with them or that that only pulls you down. That doesn't help them either. But I remember reading something quite a while back. And if I hadn't known this, I think things might have been different. And it's putting, putting the aspects of your life in order. And this guy said, it's, you need to put yourself first, you have to look after yourself. Because if you don't look after yourself, and you fall into a hole, everything around you falls into a hole. So you've got to and it's not about being selfish, it's about just giving yourself a little bit of quality time, go away. My quality time with the kids while I'm having a bar hump and nighttime, yeah, they knew they couldn't come into their mum's time, you know. And it's just a time for you to just chill out or whatever. They put your husband next, not your children, yeah, marriages fall apart, because the husband comes to a point where it just think he's not loved and not wanted anymore. Because we were so busy with our kids, and everything else that they become lost. And so this gentleman said it should be you put yourself first put your husband next, then your children, then everything else comes after that. And being a mature person now and I can look at that guy. And that is so true. Because I know the struggles that my marriage went through and the hardship that my marriage went through. And if things if we had a built a marriage differently on those aspects, we would have had a stronger marriage, you know, we're still together, praise God, we're still together. But um, you know, and I think that's important. And you're not to allow those self doubts to control you. Because that can happen. Big time. You know? You can look back in life, I suppose. I've been through a lot in my life. And and it's there's been doubts, in fact, did this this way. That wouldn't happen. You can't do that. Yeah, that's yesterday. You can't do in the past. You know, forgiveness, huge thing, a positive thing that everybody needs to do. I bring an outtake, you hear a lot of things. Yeah. You hear a lot of things in I've heard a lot of sad things in my life with people, the hatred that they hold towards a family member, or the, you know, a mother and daughter that hadn't spoken for 25 years. And that just rips me to pieces because my mom and I were so close. We did so much together and then losing her so young. And I always, I always come back to what I say to my girls never allow anything to come between us. Not a disagreement. Not everybody has the right to have their own personal choice of something. But if something comes between us, don't be too pigheaded to go and say I'm sorry. Even if the other person did something wrong. You'd be strong enough to go I'm sorry if I offended you in any way. I love you. I care about you. Please don't let this affect everybody. unchecked, because we allow the little things for too long to destroy and take a look at the world. It's just distracting itself in life, you know? And it's quite sad answer keys, Nurse causes sickness in the body. Yeah, it causes depression, it causes so much more. And, you know, I've seen so much through my brothers. Everything, they still hold anger and resentment against my dad, for how he treated us and what he put us through. And I got to the point, I forgave him when I was 19. I became a mom at 19. And I wanted more and better for my life, and also for her life. And at that time, I wasn't even a believer in God. I believe now that God spoke to my heart, because I made that choice to forgive him and move on. And, you know, it took a long time for me to learn to love him again. And I think deep down I always did, because he was my dad. Did I like the person he had to come? No, not at all. And sometimes you don't have to, like, who's someone that comes. But that hatred, it's not a good thing. It will disrupt everything around you, it will destroy your marriage, it will destroy your life between you and your children. And it's, it's not a good thing. And you see so much hatred in the world. And that's why there is so much destruction. And I think, living a positive life. And I know some people find that hard. But being a positive person isn't that hard. It's just looking and believing for better, you know, believing that it can get better. And yes, sometimes it doesn't. But it's having that hope. That's what God gives me that hope in life, life will be better. And I think a lot of people blame culture a lot of things. I don't and we all have free will. And it does give us that free will. He gives me hope that even if you're going through a tough time, it can't get better. You have to want it and you just have to find a way to step out or our way. I love my artwork. Sweet German Yeah, a lot of my grandkids I give me enjoyment my children give me enjoyment. You got to find something that will give you a joy instead of just holding on to the negativity Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. Cuz you're right. It is incredibly disruptive and as physically you know festers in your body and comes out in illnesses and disease and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, it's it's it's a pretty massive thing to be able to forgive someone. You know, like you said, you don't have to lie. No, you don't have to like who they were at the time. Yeah. Or who you know, you don't have to like the situation. Yeah. But if you have that hatred in you, I know that person I became, in my teenage life, I didn't like who I was. And even though I tried really hard to be that bubbly person and be positive. I was felt like I was dying inside. And it wasn't until I made that decision to forgive my father. And it was pretty serious. The stuff that I went through in my family that most people thought, No way. Could I do that. But I did that because I wanted to. Yeah, it wasn't about him nice about that. Yeah. And you know what forgiveness isn't about the other person. But did you know, hatred is not about the other person? Because it actually doesn't hurt them? No, that's it, isn't it? You're the one suffering, you're the one that suffered. So the hatred festers in you makes you an angry person, a wild person out of control person, and the person you're putting all that hatred to, doesn't even know what you're feeling. So you know, and I realized that 19 isn't very profound. And I always look back at that. And I remember exactly, I could see myself doing it in my bedroom, it led straight just around the corner. And recall was one years old. I was before I met. So yeah, and I just, and I think that's fine. We can have bad days, we can get upset, that's life that happens, we can die have days of crime on the couch. Been there done that too. But if you allow those situations to fully control you, and not have to step out of them, that's when the depression really comes in. And I've watched that one of my closest friends, due to a situation that have ended depression has just taken a hold of it. And it's really sad. It's sad to watch. It said, I feel helpless, because I can't help it out of it. Try. But you know, that we can do is be there for them. Yeah, that's it. Like you said, it's, you can try. But that person has had gone to do the work, which is unfortunate, but also powerful for them. If they embrace that, you know, they're in control of this situation, they can get themselves out of it. Yeah. If people can get themselves out of it. But I think if there's support networks, not out there, oh, yeah. Let's say, you can't do it on your own. You know, watching my brother became an alcoholic, his whole life, you know, bumped into him down the street was really sad, because we sci fi switch up. And that's all that would come out. And I think, you know, I didn't know who he was. But I was there for him when he was dying, because I swore that he would never suffer on his own in the end. And that was really that that was really, really tough. That wasn't easy. Sitting at a hospital watching someone's life, you know, disintegrate like that. But it also made me a stronger person. Knowing that, you know, if we've got family members that are going through the hard times. Even though we can't always change the situation. All we need to show them is that we still love them. And I think that's the important thing. Because you see some families where they go, oh, yeah, I can't be bothered dealing with her anymore. It's just too much hassle. And she's over exaggerating. And data added. I just think she's your family. Just love her. Just love her for who she is. Yeah, it's not easy, but it's not easy for them to know how to how they can even comprehend what goes through their heads. You just can't comprehend it. And and so it's just a matter of loving and caring about those people that are in your family, whether it's your children. You know, I saw a lady the other day and she came up and said hello to us at lunch yesterday in Shetland baby in arms and it's all babies it's been fostered and, and fine. I just looked at each other and it just went Oh, that is so sad. Like, you know, it's been in the foster system since he was five days old. And, you know, it's we had to help society. How do you help people to change? I think trying to teach people how to be positive how to have hope. Yeah. It's a pretty good message. I have heart. Yeah. That was a big thing that's really important. When you became a newer, like, you talked about having a bath and like this is this is your time, you know, you've got three girls in the house. Was it hard to keep your own identity? As Judy, when you was putting so much into you? I think you do focus a little bit. When when, especially when your children are really young. Because when they're really young, they totally depend on uni and everything. So you know, that might drive Yes. Oh, oh, later on, when I gotta get out, I'm going to shut off. Yeah, yeah, I do think you do lose a little bit. Like I said, giving yourself some space. And having a bit of you time is important. Going out on a date with your husband. It's important. They are important things. And I think a lot of time we get so busy with everything around us. And I know I'll definitely do. Like I said, it wasn't until way after the kids were gone that I made that bet how to put your family, you know, you, your husband, and then your children. And so a lot of time, you're so busy with your children and doing this and doing that and doing this and that you don't give yourself and so you do lose a part of yourself. My goal, it was really funny. Growing up, I wanted to be a beautician. Yeah. That's what I wanted to do. A lot of fun cover a lot of fashion like that has brought right from a little girl mom was always in my mom's wardrobe. She's like, you know, so, but it didn't happen. And then I became a nya tech at 14. And I actually went and did a little bit of makeup artistry. Because I was gonna do that with the now. But now it's just too much more time. So I just ended up letting go. But it was it was a dream as a child, that's what I wanted to do. And so there for a while, I felt like I had lost a part of myself because I didn't get to do what I wanted to do. But I loved being a mum. So and I made that choice. My husband and I we sat down and we discussed I have a daughter when I met Pete she was two and I met him. And so then when we had our children we discussed and I said what do you want? If you want me to go and find a job or gone and he said no. This is it really for the girls. You know, and I think that's because we've commanded the passport mums did yeah, I can i and t they were time financially, that extra money would have been handing, but we need to go without you learned to go without you learn to just live off what they've got, you know, they still have food in their stomach and a roof over their head. You know, and at that stage that sort of opened my eyes up to my mom, because my mom bringing us five kids up on her own. But same thing we had a roof over our head, clothes on our back feed on their feeding or something. We're closed speech at night though A lot of times over secondhand clothes, mom did a bit of work in one of the secondhand shops. And she picked right through it and buy some nice things. But, you know, she did what she had to do as a single mom in the end. And I mean, in the early days, there was no pension. Yeah, she was lucky, because my mom was so sick, she couldn't actually hold a job down. But the pension had just come in and wholesome very much, but she managed. I was 16 When my dad left, so I left school to go out work to help provide for my family, you know, it wasn't well, and it wasn't easy. I didn't have the best model with work in my early days. And, and I was on the dole, well, that's fine. I handed that over to my mom, like, you know, yeah, I did what I could do. But losing a part of your identity. I think happens to all of us at some stage in our life, I think that have a life. And they should become a really big, career driven one. Do you think that helped you come back to yourself? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. It was all they always say. I caught up with an old girlfriend at Christmas time. We were best friends growing up. And I hadn't seen her for a long time. And she come in and she said, Where did it come from? I said, I think it was always there. I used to draw a lot as a young girl, I'd sit my bedroom, paper and Palin. I think growing up in a house full of men. It was my only way to get away from everything. So I'm sitting in my bedroom a lot with drawing whatever car I knew I loved cars. And so I said it was always there. Just the finances weren't there for me to do it. So even being a single mom, the finances were there to do it. My creativity was really big on my dressmaking. I would go into this fabric store that we used to have in town. And and I knew Margaret quite well, because her daughter and I went to school together and I would go in and she said so what are we looking for today? Do just a bit of February. She said I function on the weekend. Okay, yep. Gotcha. Yeah, didn't have the money to go and buy a fully priced fabric. So I would go through and reminisce. And I'd say that my oldest is big enough for school. Why can I pick that? And then I'd go through. Oh, hey, this. That'll work. Yeah. Spend $5. Yeah, I think sometimes it cost me February. And I could back then because I used to write really simple basic stuff. I didn't need a pen color pattern off something that I had. So that creativity Big Time Bank as a single mum. And because I used to put my money into my daughter to buy her clothes or make some clothes for her. So I would just buy the scrap fabrics to make something for myself. Yes. So and I worked on my mom's trailside washing Peter gown. Oh, wow. And then then I met Pete and his mum gave me her old Brother Song fishing. She said you know don't use it anymore. You can have it. And I was like what Christmas is kind of what Yes, like I really miss the old treadle they are they have do French things really well. Yeah. That stitcher was also funny So, I think if you can look back at your life and, and not look at the negativity of your life, because we've all had bad stuff, a lot of us have had bad stuff in life. But look at the things that have made you who you are. You know, my mom, she was my biggest inspiration. I want it to be like her. I think she'd be proud of. So she's smarter than me. She'd be laughing at something she'd be like, Jeanne kitchen. I look at my girls. And like, I was blessed to have daughters hung up in a house for me. All I wanted was a sister. Yeah. I want a sister. That's not gonna happen. I have it all. I have my sister in law that I'm really close to. But, you know, I really believed I was blessed to be given dollars, because it was like given me something that I credit for as a child. That sister. You know, I'm the oldest in the family. And then it's boy, boy, that was five of them. Five, very close in age. My mom had six kids in five years, Holly, Molly's twins. Goodness gracious. And I used to say to her, Hey, did mom and then when the kids were growing up, she would say something like I had one you've got three teenagers and I knew what she was going oh my god. Yep, I've got three that's a challenge. whities get to teenagers. My oldest grandson just turned 16. Yeah, right. Goodness. So what's the age range of your grandchildren? So from 16 to four months? Oh, wow. Yeah, right. Yeah. Oh, lovely. So there's four boys and four girls. I have here two boys and girls just steaming. And then the other girls listen to this. Now there's no favoritism. But Stevie's here, and she's the only girl that I've got to spend time with. And so I love spending time with her. But I love going to Queensland and spending time with my other grandkids. So I've got three here and five up there. So yeah, so there's two boys and three girls. Yeah, so yeah, oldest to 16. And the youngest is five months. So and that brothers, by the way, yeah. Right. To say, to say Brooklyn, with his baby brother in his arms. And like it, he's six foot to six foot three. And he's got a photo of his brother in his arms. just melted. And honestly, when he was born, I was just like, wow. So, you know, that's pretty big age gap. And I know that gap will be there for a long time. But there will come a time where that gap will disappear. You see that with a siblings where there's, you know, ages between them. So you know, I hadn't hadn't families don't like 13 kids. So that's when the mom really would have lost her identity. She reminds me of down at Kleiner. D. There's a gravestone because my grandparents buried there. My dad saw it. And it just says, Mother, it doesn't even say good night. It was like literally that's what she was just being a mother. You know, she probably had just finished reading a novel and it was written in the times of before women could vote. Yeah, and how go home and breed. Anyway, this one woman, she was quite well to do. But she got kicked out and she ended up in a mining town. Well, she inherited a news agency from her while she thought it was her uncle, and as she found out it was actually her father. So she inherited this and everybody said now she's not gonna laugh. She's not gonna laugh. And she was determined and she changed that whole town. Yeah, aspect of that whole town. How people looked at things and how people do things. I mean, it was a Christian novel, and it was so well written. Francine rivers, she's one of my favorite horses. But he was how women were looked at. Oh, yeah. And I know we've come a long way. In that sometimes I worry about, have we taken away too much from the Ventus identity? Because there are a lot of families out there that women roam the house. And I don't know, something my husband and I have talked about that, you know. And I don't believe we have to live in a world where the husband just goes up and works all day and the woman stays home and does nothing, I don't believe in it. But I definitely believe in equal, equal equal, not. Even a woman shouldn't be higher than men. And women should be equal treat each other equally. And I know there's still men out there that are like cavemen who want to, you know, hold the roast and drag the woman by the hair, like, you know, Oh, guys, just time for a while, but the world technology has definitely changed the world. I suppose Britain and abroad changed the world to. I remember, a lady sent me a lot of print. And she separated from her husband. And like I said, pipeline, and we separate the fact that she said, How did you say that you said, because we wanted to make it work. We could have just taken the easy way out. But at the end of the day, it was only gonna hurt our kids, it's gonna hurt ourselves. And at the time, could have quite easily just walked out and started a new life. And that wasn't my that wasn't my motto. That wasn't my dream. My dream was to be with Caleb for the rest of my life. And to watch, I think, because I grew up in it. You know, my dad walked out on us. No, I did not want to do the same thing. And this made us stronger. Because we fought harder. And I think we need to fight harder for things in the world that we're living today. It's too easy just to go on. I'd love you. Anyone leaving? Yeah. Do you think that's why the the, the percentages of of divorce have skyrocketed. A couple of generations of people scattered jihad, and off they go. I know, I know a few people that said they wish that given a better chance. You know, if I only had, because it's more of my screen. Offense, that's the thing isn't? Fair, it's just go with the same thing. Yeah. Like, you know. Some, and I think that's where if we do the right balance in our lives, in our families, with you, your husband, your children, then everything else after that. If you do that right balance, then I really believe that the balance will be right in your family too. Because you're so busy with the kids, you're so busy with everything else running around, you don't give that quality time to your partner. And then what happens you drift apart. So you don't connect the way you used to. And to try and make that connection again, isn't easy. It's hard work. But you know, and then try it once your kids move away. Yeah. And you're living in a house and I know, lots of marriages that break up at that point. Because, you know, you're not even talking together. Yeah, you just live in a house together. And so, you've got to start again, to build that relationship. And some people just can't be bothered to do that. So they just think well, I'm done on on out of this. You know, my husband has his creative side. He loves work given he's done like we've renovated our house and picked it a lot of stuff in the house. The petitioner the door, he built it in my fireplace mantel piece. He built the book all over that they sit under he built um so he he has his creative side of things. And he races off road buggies and he was just a way this weekend. You got to allow them to have their space to wait Want to have our space but they've got to have their space as well. And my husband and I, we don't live in each other's pockets. Quite comfortable. Pricing, I didn't want to go this time. So I did last month I went this month I stayed on. I was quite happy to stay home. And, and sometimes I don't go away as much as I used to. I used to go away a lot as a now ticked go away with training and stuff. And he was quite happy with that. I think you just got to come to an agreement. And learn to live together in that way. And learn to work together, work together as parents for your children. Not allow one person to make all the decisions. Yeah, not to allow poor moms. I think moms get bad rap, really. Because that's a wild die and mom's busy. Gone. Don't do this. Don't do that. Don't do this. And then dad walks in the door and go, you can do what you like. Yes, you know, yeah. And my mom used to say that we were always really naughty girls for her all day, and the dad would come home and then we'd be on our best behavior. Daddy was bowing. It was going be too scared to be naughty. Don't try to your father ago. I remember watching Pete sit down behind Barbie dolls with the girls. You know, his role was when he walked in the door. Let me have more coffee. Stop having coffee. We I know in business. So yeah. And it's hard to switch off from that. It's like you just you're all the time because it's you. And you know, like he's loving right now being semi retired because he goes to work, he comes home for lunch. And then he comes home at the end of the day. And he has no headaches. We had a business for 36 years. So we had those headaches for 36 years. And but he always made quality time for his kids. We always made sure we weren't working on the weekends, every now and then he'd pop into the office on a Saturday morning or hid behind, I would pop into the office because I'd have to go and do a bit of work. But let's say that when we took over the business, that was something I had to step into. Yeah. Because before that we had a secretary when we had the two partners. So then when he left financially, we couldn't afford to pay anybody. So it was like I gave up my art studio to go work in the office. And that wasn't too bad because I didn't need to be there 24/7. So I would be there a couple of days a week to do or okay paydays these days, I'd go in there for two hours and leave. So being an outtake, and doing that, it was a bit of a juggle, but it worked. Because I could still do business more than myself in my own business, and juggle that, but still be there to do what I had to do with the other business. And I was so happy when that was so quiet my monthly you know, best. And I remember when it takes changing from and then the GST came in and everything and that slightly, I had to go and do training, like, and then we had to get all this special. And the technology and when you're in business and thinking of like we started, Pete started his business in the IDs. And then, you know, the technology year after year after year changing and how things were done. I remember even in the early years, he would come home with written codes. And I would sit down at the table to do them properly. Yeah, he would do the rough. Like yeah, I'd be on that boat what does this mean? And then because he wanted to go computerized and his business partner didn't want to spend the money so in the end when we brought him out we went for computerized so I'm going to type to how to work a computer. Yeah, I think we have a special program so that didn't even work anyway. So it was like my general this training all over again. Because yeah, this program it was because we had a panel breeding business was specially made for that. Yeah. And then you go from the das System to Windows system. Everything changes so off just completely changes over time. But yes, I'm so glad I've done so Want to know? What do you want to know how will sleep? Three just turn three? He just said his birthday. And his favorite thing amongst attracts nah. Yeah, I mean yet lots of them lots of of hate here. He just loves him and he gets them away. We've lined them all up around the island. Bye, guys. How about this one? Down the hallway of her house. Okay, so quiet getting busy. Kind of interesting. So I want to ask you, bear, I've been watching on your Instagram, this evolution of this painting that you're working on at the moment. I used to do a lot of fine art paperwork for probably seven years. And that's great. But a lot of hours go into it. And not because I stopped doing the paintbrush because it's just so much miss and time and being an artist. I just didn't have the time because I was pretty much working full time. And so then the payment was good, because I can't watch TV without doing something. Yeah, I could have that sitting on it. Or just don't attend to live pieces. How can you do that and watch TV at some point. I'm not watching on this thing. Yeah, yeah. If I need to look I can. I can I can teach the white crow strings crashing. I watched the video guy that Crusher Crusher Crusher really fast one Yeah. No. Why would you even do that? It's about enjoyment. Enjoy. Yeah. There's not a competition to say how quick you can crusher a blanket, right? Yeah. Anyway, I was watching this video on this boy. And he was crushing so fast. He kept me here. But anyway, so I was doing all this paperwork for a long time. And then I decided to challenge myself on watercolor. And so I enjoy that, because that's just an easy, relaxed. And what got me back into the brushes also did a painting for both her house and was huge. Yeah, absolutely. Two meters by 1.5. It was enormous. She had brought a piece of artwork for a bedroom, and she wanted to get one for a dining room and kept saying, show me like two guys go and say Ma'am, you can do that. Yeah, I can do. So I said I can do that. Anyway. So I'll jump for you if you want might as well even copy the painting that you love. And just change it up a little bit. Anyway, because it was it was pretty much block car, like there was no detailing in it. So anyway, she walked away. And she came back she was already righty. So I'll do up here for Christmas present. So it was kind of paint brush back in my hand. I'm liking this. So I'm doing at the moment is what it's going to hang out front door. I just have a picture of these big flowers, and it's gonna have a butterfly in the middle of it. So butterfly. And then I was looking at photos of butterflies and flowers. And I'm like, well I have can I do that because butterflies are actually bigger than flowers. I just don't want a butterfly on a canvas doesn't matter. It's just the concept of it. And what I'm enjoying at the moment is this no rush. It's when I'm in the mood, go up there and do a little bit more, you know, non flowers. And I like to think about what I'm doing I like to think about and I like to study flowers. So I like a bit of detail work not just a block color. And I mean, before I started I was on Pinterest looking I get lots of paintings, modern artwork and lots of stuff trying to work out what I wanted. I just wanted I just decided I wanted to pop a color in the house. As you can see, my places hasn't been of color, but not a huge amount. It's a very nice color you teach you and yeah, so when we renovated the house, we wanted everything. It used to be Craven flooring. Anyway, so when I repainted I went for that really nice. It's called like rice in the living room. And that's pretty much true the rest of the house when I come to the kitchen, I need some color in here. Because otherwise it would just look playing from the tiles and everything would have just got lost. Yeah, yeah. The paychecks I know and I painted some colors. Well, he went down and I painted my kitchen. Oh, my friends laughed about it. When he come home is like we've had this color before our bedroom yesterday this car. Okay, but it's my favorite color. So decayed blue. It's easy to live with. But yeah, I wanted to pop a color. So I've done these flowers and they're like, apricot a terracotta Yeah. And then it'll have a butterfly that I've been looking at lots of peaches, butterflies. I'll find one that really jumps at me. And she's been in the shade these first I was at the Melbourne Zoo and Melbourne Museum during the week. And the amount of dead animals that they have there are people who have like the the wooden sort of frames and then in the butterfly oh my gosh, there was some absolutely gorgeous one. Oh, that's amazing. Butterflies are like the like the the vibrancy. I can't see the reflection of the grass. But the vibrancy in these colors. I was like, Oh my gosh, yeah, they exist like that. Yeah, I'll continue that one. That's it kids birdwing? Yeah, just because I've got the ICER caught on something with a bit of blue on it. Yeah. You have to have blue in it. That's a trademark is nobody goes on about my turquoise and aqua colors. But it's just an easy color to take come home. And it was great posturing, the chairs and the old Dawn swing. I had done three and I needed to do the other three. Because I finally finishing those. I said yes. And sorry. Anyway, come back and said I just need to tell you because I sit down. I'm finishing these because I've solved the tables. Why have you sold it? Because I probably knew that my girlfriends and I was showing her and she said what are you gonna do and I went by the phone technology is good sometimes. It has. So reposting so you're quite adept at that is not intricate, but the seats were just plain and I got a quote to get them down like you're not paying that. So I think I could do a count to I'd love to have my couch reupholstered in there because it's just gotten really glossy and also dependent Yeah, I'm actually tempted to make a slip cover for Yeah, so I said depends on me. I'll try and make a slip cut before I said because the cushions I can cover the cushions is enough to try and get that couch that rams Yeah, so I just thought oh, maybe a challenge for you. Yeah. Every now and then that's literally like your motto in life be seen. Give it a crack and see how it goes. I even my son little bit of money, but there's a feeling when you give something a challenge and you do it. It's like I did that. Wow, that makes me feel good. You know. I had my friend that came in the other day that did a bit of painting with me. She's looking at my artwork. She's like, No, no, we're not buying artwork. When I do artwork. I don't see the point. Yeah, and this. I have one case that I brought. I have a friend in Victoria And I was chatting with her. And she's a quirky artist. And, and obviously my early days of joining the penwork and I just fell in love with this place. And she was funny. She thinks it's one of the worst places she said I still got, you know, but I don't have the money to go out and spend 1000s of dollars on a piece of art. But I can have a painting up on a wall and I can go Yeah, I'm over that now. Yeah, can I change? I need to change and change that. Yeah. Because I've got another big canvas that's gonna get on that wall. Yeah, and that's a meter and a half by meter so it's quite few so I'd have thought about what I'm gonna do my not yet finished. Yes, it finished your flowers. So what inspires you then with you? You're painting like natural the natural world it's just anything that anything anything that bugs me yet you know, at the moment, birds have grabbed me as you can see, I've got a few birds. I follow he's a Krishna has over in Russia or somewhere over Ukraine or wherever, somewhere over that way. And he does these most amazing food paintings. And there's actually a lady in Australia. who works at Castlemaine. And she does really good ones, too. I kik messenger, so many to teach. I want to come over for a workshop. You know, it's not about if something just grabs my attention, yeah, like, you know, yeah. I've had a go at some of the really ultra modern art. Yeah, and that's easy. Five Year Old can do that. Like real abstract, sort of, yeah, splashes and things like that. Yeah. Pete's got one in the family room. I've been going to get rid of at night Smart Girls. So yeah, and I say that you know, it's like when you decorate your home if you think over the years I've been here 37 years Yes. Big coats of paint and with that cover so and right now what's coming really big apricot? Yeah, I forgot become a huge again. Well, ladies, guess what? It was really big in the 90s. So you know, you go you go through those changes and country country. Oh, my goodness. I had chickens walking around my walls. Yeah, you know, chicken phrase wallpaper and and we all have a laugh about it. Remember, mom's kitchen. Terracotta rag down the bottom and change changes, good changes. Good. You're not afraid of change. Now. You know what? I went and visited my mother the other day. And their house still looks like the way it was when they brought it. They've never done anything new to us that they did put in a new kitchen. But when you go into their lounge room, we've still got the 70s couch. But it's really clean and it's really tidy. And doesn't feel oh, yeah, right. But it's so them and they're not at 90s. And I just think what I love fresh. It's not about changing the furniture. It's about just having a fresh coat of paint or if a curtains I've just replaced my curtains do these? Yeah, it's about and I've done that expensive. Paying, you know, someone to make curtains now comes as spotlight. Yeah, it's ready to hang on. To him. Yep. But But yeah, it's, you can you can decorate your home on the smallest budget, but you can decorate your home on the biggest budget. And you know, I think it's people so you've got so much and you can do it. Oh, you see on the site in my studio. There's a lot of stuff. Like because I like things. Yeah, I'm very sentimental. Yeah, so if someone gave me something or I've got something from somewhere special, that's not going away. That's gonna, you know, I just like it's clean and tidy, but there's just a lot of stuff in there. I like a homely feel in a house of like a lift in your house that feels like someone lives in a not a house like that. Yeah, I couldn't live like that, like kitchens clean at the moment. Like, you know, it's like you said before, it's a lot of things. So Do you know when? When when you're a mum of three young children, and there's plenty of us out there that you stress yourself out because your house doesn't look a certain way. Don't worry about it. Don't let the things of what other people think, get to you. Because I remember I met a girl for the first time. Anyway, we were going to a function of something. And she said, I'll pick you up, dude. I'm not Yeah, right now. Anyway, and she knocked on the door and I yelled at come in and, and I was sitting at the fire rating the girls here and just had their boss they had their pajamas on. And I was going to be away for two nights. And so I wanted to make sure everything was right and whatnot. And when I was in her car, she goes, I owe you an apology. I say why? And she said, because I've judged you without actually getting because someone told me that you live in a pigsty. And I said to her, what, because I have three children there. Sometimes it's Washington everywhere. And this and that. And I said to her, I said, I don't judge people by their homes. If I want to be friends with someone, and things get on top of them. Who can't go and visit them for them. Don't make people because that what happens is then you stop wanting people to come to your house. Because you put yourself in a box and you go, Oh, if that's what people think I don't want them to come and listen, I'm not good enough to have people into my mind. Yeah, that's right. And it's not this not a nice feeling to have. I just laughed. I was just like, No, but I knew who it was. I was gonna say it was that first and saying things like, yeah, it was and I just thought, you know what, that's a problem. Okay. Because I have a home. Yeah. And it probably shows to, you know, some people judging people. So people can look very superficially, like, what's really important to this is worrying what people think of them. Yeah, you know, I don't care what people think, you know, I've got a brother who's really, really sick, has no energy, and his house is upside down. Now, I've lost a superficial person, I wouldn't even step into his house. I try and offer to help him because might not know. But it's not. It's not about, you know, I get a lot of comments from people come into my house, and I take that. Thank you very much. But I don't do my house up, plays out. There's yeah, I've done my house that I like. And it's like all of a sudden, a few have, because I love the Hamptons. Yeah. And on a few blocks, and I've put up a couple of photos. It was a couple of negatives. And I said, You know what, if you don't like what I've done, that's fine by me. But you can keep your opinions to this thing. And so now I don't do social media. Yeah. It's always gonna be someone, there is always someone even if, even if they don't necessarily mean what they say there's someone who wants to cause drama, you know, they want to say negative comment because they want to interaction, you know, most people that say negative comments are people that are not happy with what they've got. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's a real reflection on them. You know, same thing. bullies, and bullies, because something's going on in their life. Yeah, that's, you know, that wasn't what another big thing that I taught my children was, don't judge a book by its cover, you know? And have I been guilty of it? Absolutely. I remember a person who I became really good friends with. I judged her the first few times I met her. I thought she was stuck up, really. And then I was working for Justin jeans. And we had to do an ad. And so we had to spend a bit of time together because she was one of the other models. And then I got asked to take home and she invited me in for coffee. And we got sat down and had a chat. And she told me her life story and it broke my heart. Nobody knows what's going on in somebody's life. You know, I, myself, growing up through some pretty horrific stuff always came across a bubbly person that nobody knew deep down what I was going through. I still remember the good times. Yeah, because there's probably a lot more good times and negative. And sometimes the negatives can be really strong. So it's really hard to get your eyes away from Yeah, once you start looking back in and then I just think it's all the good times that we need to remember. Think wisdom comes from age. And if we can, I've learned a lot from older women. If I can't pass a bit of wisdom on to others that are listening in, I think then what are we here for? I think I think it's really wise and sustainless when our, my girls, once they get to, you get to a certain age and you go, Wow, if I hadn't done that a little bit different. Well, they've got kids pass it on to your kids. Yeah, because things won't change. Things aren't going to change unless we pass the wisdom on to our, to our children and our grandchildren. And, you know, my biggest thing is, give it a go. Don't be scared to give anything go. You know. It doesn't matter if someone else doesn't like it if you like it, that's fine. This is good. This is like a different dimension, a different perspective. You know, all the things you've been able to share today is wonderful. Because yeah, there's, I think sometimes when you're down in the trenches with your little ease, or you know, your newborns or different years that you're working through, you can think, Oh, it's so bad, I'll never get better. It's like, you know, you've been through all of that you're enjoying this next phase of your life. And it's really lovely to be able to share those experiences a good spot, you might cap live and let go of all and how you said those times where we feel like, do we do the right thing? It doesn't matter? Because you can't get back? Yeah. So what you do is you just take the next step on for July, and just love on your children, because the biggest thing is just love on them. And even when they become teenagers, like driving the same. And you know, one males and 17 You just love on your kids, and that should never stop should never stop you should constantly and they will definitely do things that you might agree with. And you know, and even as adults, they will do things that you won't agree with. And at the end of the day, they're still your children. And you still should love them no matter what. Because if they're not around you, it makes you really miss them lots and I miss my girls every day. And I miss my mum every day. And I'm watching now my friends dealing with their older parents. So part of means I miss my mum but a part of me it's glad I don't have to watch her get old and wither away either. But she she suffered enough in her early years. But you know, you just got to take life as it is. Make the most of it. But you're most of it, because nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow. Yeah, you know, that's why we just need to leave for today and make the most of it and don't whinge about not doing something. Yeah, just go and do it. Just do it. Yeah, that's it. Thank you for today. Oh, thank you. Thanks. So lovely. Thank you for having me. Beautiful home. Welcome. I love these blues. It's like my jury. I gotta thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom