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Holly Norman

Australian professional musician + wellbeing practitioner

S3 Ep81

Holly Norman

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This week I am pleased to welcome Holly Norman to the podcast. Holly is a musician and wellness pracitioner from Perth WA and a mum of 1.

When Holly was growing up, her dad used to listen to big band jazz records at home, and early on she was listening regularly to classic swing and big band – Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong and so on. At the age of 11, a self confessed, late starter Holly took up the drums. She went through high school and university as a dyed-in-the-wool classical percussionist and back then you couldn’t have paid her to get behind a drum set. Once she started playing in bands in her mid-twenties, Holly realised that there was a whole world of music that could become accessible to her, if she moved over to drums.

As a musician Holly has worked with the likes of The Cat Empire. Ash Grunwald, the Australian String Quartet, and the West Australian and Canberra Symphony Orchestras.

She released her own EP of original songs in 2013 called Hollypop, recently released a single called It's Only Weather in late 2022, and has a new song out now, called Isolation, written about the covid-19 lockdown periods experienced over the past couple of years.

Holly spent 10 years as an event producer and arts manager, working on some amazing projects like the Melbourne International Jazz festival, Perth PRIDE Parade, and Perth International Jazz Festival.

Holly is also passionate about health and wellness practicing yoga for over 15 years and she's also a yoga teacher. Musicians need so many different types of mobility, and functional/postural support to play their instrument, so Holly developed the Yoga for Drummers session. She is really passionate about keeping musicians safe and ensuring longevity in the industry.

This episode contains discussion around miscarriage and loss.

Connect with Holly - instagram / website / facebook

Podcast - instagram / website

If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here

Holly's music is used throughout today's episode, with permission.

When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies.

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Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page

Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast

I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world!


Thank you!


Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region.


Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoy honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Welcome to another episode of the podcast is a pleasure to welcome you from wherever you are in the world. Whether this is your first episode, or your at first, thank you so much for being along for the ride. I've just come back from a week away with the family in a city called Ballarat, which is about three hours away from where I live here, Matt, Gambia. It's over in Victoria and it was lovely to be out of my own space somewhere completely different enjoying the sunshine, swimming, being a tourist and sightseeing and spending a lot of time with the family. Although the car trips with the two boys in the back, were always a bit of fun and the huge pile of washing that we've accumulated. Now that we're home is also great. I'm sure many of you can relate. But nevertheless, today I'm very excited to welcome Holly Norman to the podcast. Holly is a percussionist a singer, a songwriter and musician from Perth in Western Australia, and she's a mom of one. When Holly was growing up, her dad used to listen to Big Band jazz records at home. And early on, Holly was listening regularly to classic swing and big bands such as Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, and Louis Armstrong and so on. At the age of 11. A self confessed late starter, Holly took up the drums. She went through high school and university as a dyed in the wool classical percussionist, and back then you couldn't have paid her to get behind a drum set. Once she started playing in bands in her mid 20s. Holly realized that there was a whole world of music that could become accessible to her if she moved over to the drums. So that's what she did. As a musician, Holly has worked with the likes of the cat empire, Ash, Grunwald, the Australian String Quartet, and the West Australian and Canberra symphony orchestras. Holly's also released in a piece of her own work, entitled Holly pop, which is available through Bandcamp. And you can find that through the link in the show notes. Holly spent 10 years as an event producer and arts manager working on some amazing projects like the Melbourne International Jazz Festival, the Perth Pride Parade and the Perth International Jazz Festival. Holly is also passionate about health and wellness, practicing yoga for over 15 years and she's now a yoga teacher. Musicians need so many different types of mobility, and functional and postural support to play the instrument. So Holly developed the yoga for drummers sessions, which can be found via the link in the show notes. This episode contains discussions around miscarriage and loss. The music you'll hear on today's episode is from Holly herself. There's a little bit of holly solo on her piano self accompanied and with her behind the drum set for her jazz quartet. Thanks again for tuning in. It's a pleasure to be with you and I hope you enjoy my chat with Holly.

name is Deanna Manzi.

Season seems to be

thanks so much for coming on today, Holly. Welcome to the podcast.

Thanks you for having me.

Yeah, it's a real pleasure. So we were just chatting before we hit record that you're in Perth and the massive time difference between Perth and the rest of Australia. So it's 12 o'clock here. What time? Is it over there?

It's 9:30am. Yes, it's a three hour time difference in summer.

Yeah, that's yes. Yeah, it

is. Yeah. We just got back from Canberra a couple of days ago. So my husband's family lives there. So we spent Christmas there. And yeah, luckily, it actually didn't hit us too hard with the sort of body clock adjustment for my daughter who's two and a half. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was expecting it to be more of a pain. But as soon as she got back in bed, she just has slept like a dream. So that's really nice, actually.

Yeah, yeah, that's a consideration because I don't like you were saying you don't have daylight savings there. But whenever the clocks change here, like there's this whole big Yeah. How do we manage daylight savings with the

calculator? Yeah. I mean, we we had our daughter in Melbourne. So the first 18 months of her life, we were there. So yeah, we did have to do a little bit of that when she was still a baby and napping. And I remember trying to adjust to like, how do you get them to think it's an hour later or an hour earlier? Like starting the naps? Like 15 minute increments like Yeah,

yeah. Oh, that's so funny. And the other kids just they just click into it. Like, you know, like, I don't know, just bizarre like, because I've got two kids and they're just completely different. So yeah, you just never know what's gonna happen to Yeah, totally Divi?

You're a musician, you do some other things, too. But is musician, your first sort of passion, your first love?

Yeah, it definitely is my first love. It's interesting, the whole kind of, I guess the topic of like, how you identify yourself, because I haven't made I haven't tried to make my living from playing music for a really long time. And that was sort of a deliberate choice. I had a day job. For the last, I want to say 10 years as a event producer and arts manager. So I sort of did that as like a nine to five. But yeah, the music part has always been there. Since I was in high school, really, it's, I would say it's like the great love of my life, for sure still is even more so now. Like coming out of the pandemic and and rediscovering music and what it means to me. Yes, definitely the main thing.

Yeah. Do you remember how you first got into music? Yeah, it's

funny. I was actually talking to someone about this yesterday, we're talking about Disney movies, because my daughter has just entered like the frozen phase that phase. I reckon Disney is like the reason that I'm I took out music. I loved the way that it could merge narrative with musical form. That and yeah, when I went to high school, I went to a school that was some specialists music. So we did a lot, a lot of music there. And when I arrived, I was sort of felt like I was a little bit behind the other kids because there were lots of lots of families and lots of children that came from these big like classical music sort of dynasty families and had been listening to records and like knew all this repertoire. And I didn't really have that kind of an upbringing. Like I there was lots of music played in our family home for sure. Like I was brought up on, you know, all of the sort of classics, but nothing classical music. So when I went into that style of studying and that sort of foundation of learning music. I used to take myself into the State Library actually on a Saturday morning is such a nerd and like listen to record of like, you know, Beethoven and yeah symphonies to try to catch up on all of the learning that I felt like I'd missed. I was Yeah, I was just really obsessed by that the sort of properties of music telling a story and Star Wars and big scores. Stuff that I just loved it like the kind of majesty of it all.

Yeah, when you say about Star Wars, I've got I keep like things that inspire me. Because I just love here you can hear a Tiny Toon and relate that to a character and relate that to a whole storyline. And then you just taken into this whole world, like, I just find that so amazing. I just love that. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah.

My first instrument was actually the flute, and I was the world's worst flute player. So when I was a child, you could have opened a can with my face like I had such a pronounced Overbite that I had I had a full Year flute lessons with a very, very patient, lovely woman, who at the end of the year took my mother aside and politely said, Holly has musical aptitude. But I think it's best if she were to play an instrument that doesn't require her mouth, as you know, as an ombre. Sure. Yeah, I couldn't make a sound after a full year of lessons. And that flute teacher specifically said, for some reason, take her to have have lessons with this teacher who teaches play percussion. So yeah, that was the instrument because you know, you just hit it. So you don't need big lungs. You don't need an Ambusher you don't need to use your mouth. She was obviously thinking that I was rubbish at all of those things. Right, yeah. Yeah, like, I guess that's like, the instruments sort of found me by like being disqualified from other instruments that I yeah, I just, I really fell in love with it. It's it's quite physical, I suppose percussion, which I enjoyed this, like, you know, striking the instrument. And the variety of it really appealed to me. So I'm, I'm a sort of being multi passionate is a pretty core facet of my personality. So with percussion, you know, we never really had to choose one instrument like you can have you play snare drum, xylophone, vibraphone, bass drum crash cymbals timpani? Like you get to play everything at the back of the orchestra. And that that really appealed to me, I think, being able to sort of jump from one thing to the other.

Yeah, and keep keep things interesting to like, totally not just sitting on the same instrument they have today. Yeah. And I think also

another another big thing that I got from that those early years sitting at the back of the orchestra is that, you know, percussionist, they don't play for most of the time. You know, it's like an icing on the cake philosophy, you really are there for like the one or 2% of you know, the moments where the music becomes really exciting, or, you know, that sort of skill of just listening, I think is something that's really carried through to my adult years into the musician that I became because yeah, it's just a lot of listening to other people play. Yeah. And yeah, trying to fulfill that that role. Yeah.

Yeah, cuz that's it, isn't it? It's like when when something interesting is happening in the music, whether like you said, it's really big or something really small, like, whether it's like the xylophone or one of those twinkly, chime things that we like, it's really something interesting is happening. I've actually always wanted like, because I'm a musician myself. But I I've always wondered like when I've seen orchestras play, like the person at the back on the, on the percussion, like they're waiting for their turn. Yes, like, a long time. 4550 minutes? Do you sort of, do you have to read the music the whole time to know where you are? Like, do you ever get scared, you're gonna get lost, like key comes up? And you're like, Oh, is it my turn? Like, do you ever get that? Or is it? I mean, I suppose it would, for someone who's just stepped into it, you'd be like panicking. But I guess because you've rehearsed it that many times. But have you ever had that moment? Where you go? Oh, I'm coming up now. But I'm not exactly sure where it is. Oh, yeah,

totally. I mean, look, it's I guess, being generally when you have a long period of rest. You know, you get you get to know what what's happening in that gap. So yeah, you usually no and like, that's why when I said I used to go to the library and listen to records, I just used to kind of like rote learn an entire piece of music and just listen to it a lot. Again, I was such a nerd. I had like, I stayed at home when I had braces for about two and a half years and I had no social confidence as a team. So I used to put on I used to play Playstation, but I turned down the game volume and put on like Gershwin and just memorize memorize the whole thing. But yeah, generally, but by the time that I got to playing that sort of stuff, I usually knew where I was. But having said that, I fallen asleep on the stage of the Perth concert hall. And very, very nearly missed an entry. Because I'm have a weird like, borderline it's not narcolepsy. It's not narcolepsy, but when I'm seated I can lose consciousness pretty easily if I'm not doing something so I often like will sleep in a meeting in class in school our sleep chronically is it's horrible. I slept in jury duty. Oh, so yeah, onstage just with a really really long time of rest. It doesn't I was sitting there like in my full concert blacks people in the class who was behind me peering over my shoulder and yeah, basically passed out and very, very nearly missed an entry. Oh, gosh, yeah. Oh my god. That's a nightmare. Yeah, it's not a great feeling.

Oh my goodness.

So you can play a few different instruments. What else can you play?

Ah, so play a little bit of ukulele definitely not wizard at it. And I play a bit of piano. So I'm just self taught on piano and keys as well. I write most of my own songs on the keyboard, that's sort of the median that I prefer. Yeah, I would have loved to have probably been more competent on piano. But it just wasn't I sort of had quite a late start with music. Like I only started playing percussion when I was about 11. So it wasn't something that I ever really did as a kid, a younger child. But yeah, I would I play mostly drumset now, like, you know, after all that talk about like, playing in orchestras and playing percussion, I probably defined myself more now as as a drummer. That was a transition that happened in my 20s. And I sort of started to, yeah, just relate more to the kind of musical styles and, and settings that I could play in just on drum set, which is mostly jazz. So yeah, I would say mostly drummer percussionist, I sing as well, again, I would never, I would never say I'm the singer. I think I sing my own songs. I like seeing a bit of backing vocals. But I've definitely I can't belt would never get up and do a covers gig. It's just not how I sort of identify.

So when you say you write, like you're writing in the jazz style, is that the sort of songs you write? Oh,

gosh, not necessarily. I'm a bit of a folky at heart. Really? Yeah. So I would say singer songwriter, folk pop is sort of the main style that I write in. But then, since I've been playing more drums, i Something I've always sort of struggled with creatively is like finding the right performance context of what what instrument am I actually going to play. Because I drums is my first instrument, but you can't really accompany yourself as a soloist, if you're playing drums. So the band that I play with now over here, I play drums, and I sing from behind the drum set, it's my compositions, but then they'd been rearranged and like more of a jazz style, and I've got a bass player, a keyboard player and a saxophone player. So yeah, really, it just depends on the context, I suppose. Like, I did a house concert in December. And that was lovely, because I was just playing solo, piano bit of ukulele. And that was like, very intimate. So yeah, that's not something that I do very often. And I felt pretty bad. Because the morning after that house concert, I woke up with COVID and then had given COVID to six people at a house concerts. I felt horrific about it. But yeah, that's I guess it just depends on the context. Really? Yeah. Yeah. A little bit of everything. Yeah. Cool.

And you also you talked a bit before about your arts and event project management that you've sort of in the day job? Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that. And what you do with that? Yeah, so

I've actually I've sort of recently, I'm in the middle of a bit of a career transition at the moment. So I've done like arts management as my sort of day job yet for, like I said, about 10 years, I got into it, because I think a lot of musicians once you know, I went to uni for music, so I went to work. And like a lot of sort of tertiary educated musicians, if you want to make a living from music, he often ended up doing a lot of teaching. So I came out of uni, and I started doing quite a lot of instrumental teaching. And I just felt like it wasn't really the right fit for me. And I felt quite strongly that if you're going to be in that position of, you know, influencing a child's relationship with music, that you should really care about being there. And it wasn't that I didn't like teaching, I actually really enjoyed it. And I still, I'd still be open to some teaching. But I feel like the framework of a school and the way that instrumental music was taught in schools because it just didn't really resonate with how I wanted to teach and how I felt like kids should be connecting with music. So I was looking for something else to do, I suppose that could make money and be sort of crossed. And yeah, I always liked being really organized. And I liked making things happen. And I yeah, just sort of fell into it. Like I started working with you, the youth orchestra here. And when I'm working with, started working with arts organizations, and then sort of went into festivals and just climbed up from sort of smaller roles to working as a producer and a programmer. A lot of that was when I was in Melbourne, I really focused on that sort of festival work and like working on the national festival circuit. It's yeah, it's a chapter of my life that I would probably consider is coming to a slate and because I'm studying counseling now, so I'm halfway through a Master's in Counseling. And yeah, I guess like just you know, during the pandemic and watching the way that the Australian arts community was placed it festival work is it can really yet chew you up and spit you out. It's long hours. Not necessarily super family friendly. So I was sort of looking for a way to transition out of that work, but Yeah, making that decision, which was only about six months ago, it was a really, really tough choice. Like, it's hard to step away from something that you really do love, and I still love it. Like, you know, it's incredible work, you're working with people that just care so much, and making things happen. It really getting blood out of a stone, like working with almost next to no budget, which is difficult at times. And I think that was also part of the quandary for me, ethically, as someone, you know, in the music community, as well, as a performer, I thought, I'm finding myself in a situation where I'm often having to ask people for to do things for less than I feel they're worth. And that made me feel like, as someone that, you know, sort of has a presence where I often talk about well being and in the arts industry. I don't I just didn't want to feel like I was feeding into that problem, I suppose. People working for less than they're worth, because I do feel like that's part of the issue. Yeah, yeah. So I thought I was pulled back on that, for the time being focus on being a musician again, and focus on studying and working with people in in health

plans to work on.

Snap crack, with a smoker, Dini accident, good news, to make the gazal disappear. But there's some things you should consider. Rebel.

I'm glad you raised that issue about the pandemic and how the arts were perceived and how they were treated. And if any regular listeners will know, they'll hit they've heard this before. I just get so cross and so angry about how the sport kept going, like, yeah, exactly. Players were moving the country, all these bubbles and whatever. Like all everything else that, you know, it was like, that's the only thing of value because that brings in the most money, you know, yeah. And I just, I just kept saying to people, but everyone's sitting at home watching Netflix, you know, who do you think made it made all the stuff, you know, the arts created all of it. And everyone, it was just really made me so mad. And it still makes me mad. And yeah, and then thing to even before that happened, like I've been a performer, just in my, my town here for, you know, I don't know, I'm 44. Now, it's been a long time. And the attitude towards performers is like, they expect you to do stuff for nothing. And this whole thing of Oh, it's great exposure. And it's like, the amount of times I've heard that bullshit. And I've gotten better as, as I've gotten older, just to say no, sorry, if you're not going to pay me this such whatever this amount is, I'm sorry, I can't do it. You know, and it's, it makes me so cross and then so they'll just, they won't change anything, because they'll just go get the next young kid who's just a geek and just take advantage of them. Yeah, that whole thing just makes me really mad.

It's so hard. And I mean, I think, for me, my boundaries have always been like, fairly strong, because I had worked on the other side of the fence, and I understood how much budget organizations usually did have to allocate, which is not heaps, but you know, if you are worrying about, you know, quoting 200 bucks versus 500, like, just quote 500, because they can usually afford to pay it like, I guess I had a level of insight from working on the other side of like managing projects for organizations, but I think being a mum becoming a parent is the ultimate like line in the sand of really having to learn, you know, it's not only that the financial value of an opportunity, but like the energy value of an opportunity and like, What's it costing your family and your household for you to be out of the house for six hours. And for them to not be food in the fridge or to not get any of the other stuff done that you need to get done. But yeah, having said that, I'd certainly don't get it right all the time. And it's, I mean, I've only been really, I've only had to be a parent and be in the regular world for less than 12 months because Matilda was born in April of 2020. So you know, most of her life was in the Melbourne lockdowns, which were some of the toughest and we didn't have a regular life at all until we came to WA and then very abruptly had this like pre pandemic existence, which was like difficult to stomach. Yeah, time. Such a huge culture shock from the way that we have been living so yeah, just even like balancing a social life with work and study and gigs. And having a kid that's only I would say, I've only been I've only had a year of experience even though she's two and a half.

Yeah, so what took you to Western Australia?

Yeah, so I was born here, and I live most of my life here. I love it over here. I've always been a big advocate and like very proud for the arts community. There's some great people over here, even though it is very isolated from the rest of the world and the rest of the country. And then I'd moved. What year was it? 20 End of 2015. I think I met my now husband. And he had been living in the US studying over there, he'd moved back to Australia. And He's based in Sydney, He then moved to Melbourne, we basically met, we went on one day, and we started, we were like, Let's have a long distance relationship. Then I moved up to Darwin. So I left and went up to Darwin for a festival contract. And then after that, I moved to Melbourne and we were there for about six years together. But yeah, it was, it wasn't the plan to move to Perth. When we did I think that was one of those, you know, sort of sliding doors scenarios that so many families experienced during the pandemic, it was, I think, the hard border with WA, I got to a point where it was causing me I would say, real trauma to not be able to come in. We tried five times to get in I had pretty severe postnatal depression after my daughter was born. It was yeah, it was just a horrible feeling, really, to have everyone over here. And I feel a really strong connection to the to the land over here and like to country, and it was just just knowing that it was something that was prohibited and, and a lot of the attitudes that I felt were being displayed towards us as being like, dirty Victorians and like don't come in and like there was this total xenophobia that was Yeah, revolting. Yeah, I've seen I've seen, I would say, I've seen a side of who that I can say. And, yeah, it's been like a bit of a rocky road to rebuilding that relationship with somewhere that I always loved and said was my home before that? Yeah, I think we basically just got to a point where we didn't have any family in Melbourne. So my husband, like I said, was from Canberra, my family's here in Perth. You know, Melbourne at the time, during COVID, it wasn't what it had been. And we were sort of looking at each other saying, you know, how long will it take for it to rebuild to what it was in terms of the the art space? And I think we just wanted some way that we could live with more family support. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was just so wild. It was we made that decision so quickly. Really, when I look back on it, it's, I often reflect that it's kind of remarkable that we made a good decision in in the place that we were mentally like we were, we were in survival mode, big time. Yeah, when we got here, it was just like having a lot of panic attacks. And really, it all just had to come out at some point. Like, it was tough over there that start part. Yeah. But yes, I think it has been the right choice for sure. And my husband as well was in the military band, he's he's a saxophone player. So he was playing in the Air Force Band. When we lived in Melbourne, which sort of that was like the equivalent, I suppose, is like doing a full time nine to five. So it was like, relatively secure, but he didn't have heaps of freedom outside of that job to pursue other creative stuff. So I think now that we're here, we're sort of, we've regained a balance of being both a portion freelance, you know, and a portion teaching or doing other work and for me study, so it feels like a better balance for us to both have that flexibility. And that's something that we're only really able to do because we've got the family support with a young child.

Yeah, no, I did. Yeah. It's massive, isn't it? How much difference it makes when you've got that, that support? When you were saying before about this dirty Victorian mentality, where I leave, my town is Matt, Gambia. We're about 20 minutes from the border. To Tory and the amount of abuse that Victorians cops like people would go home like I worked with a there was a because you had to have all these permits to cross the border. For anyone that doesn't know it was pretty full on. So people that there was a lady that I worked with who was Victorian and she said she would cop abuse people would see her number plate in the car pocket coals and we're just abused get out of here and falling over your fires like it was just disgusting. And they're people who are part of our community basically, you know, they work here horrible been their money here, but then they happen to live in a little tiny little, like, basically a rural little thing just over the border. And yeah, it was really horrible. It was horrible. Because, yeah, like you said, this whole new side of people the way people ostracizing people.

Totally, it's hard. Yeah, it's hard to think back on it like a lot of I feel like I sort of just blank a lot of it out. Yeah. But yeah, it was I mean, who obviously had the, you know, proudly the world's hardest border.

He built the one didn't

you know, I can You kind of laugh about it now, but like this, like my heart's like Slack, silently clenching. Still, as we talk about it like, it's still it's totally still hard to think about. Yeah. But you know, having said that, when we got here, I did understand, I suppose, from the side of people that were here, why they were pleased, in a way to have that protection because they were, you know, artists were able to live relatively unencumbered. Like they didn't have to shut down in the same way that you know, certainly that that Melbourne did so. Yeah, I do get it. But yeah, it's just, it's just a whole chapter of life that I'm so glad is over. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Finding my guys when I thought about it,

so you're also into the wellness side of things you do yoga? And I guess that's where you counseling sort of coming in to thing? Yeah, yeah. You've been practicing yoga for a long time.

Yeah, I have. I want to say I sort of got into it. Like a lot of, you know, yoga, people got into it, just for exercise. That was when I was in my early 20s. And I remember going to classes and that the teacher would spend ages and the breathing and I'd mentally have this dialogue of like, Can you hurry up and get to the fast paced stuff, like get to the poses, I'm here to you know, get a workout on and it's so funny now, because as a teacher, now, I'm a yoga teacher. And, you know, after what 15 years of practicing is, the breathing is my favorite part. And I would have happily spend two hours in one shape like I don't, I'm not in a hurry, the way that I my home practice has completely changed. You know, I love a slow Hathor as opposed to like a fast vinyasa with a million Chaturanga is, but yeah, it was sort of something that I got into it. And I've never done any real movement training, I'd never did dance or anything like that. But I, when I was at uni, I had a bit of like, RSI, and performance injuries, you know, stemming from how many hours of practice I was doing when I was first studying. So I started going to Pilates. And that was helpful to understand, I suppose my physicality and like how my muscles worked. And, you know, being a relatively petite female and playing an instrument that's traditionally made for, you know, German men like classical percussion. It was yeah, it was just helpful to understand how to support my body and what what sort of strength I needed to build in sort of muscles and that sort of thing. Yeah, so I sort of just started and then kept going, and I did something called Yoga for drummers a few years ago, which had sort of like to start getting that going again. So I had a YouTube class and I did a few workshops as well, you know, drummers pit like all musicians, I would say, not hugely on top of looking after their health in on any level. But you know, it's just, it's easy to injure yourself. And I've met so many musicians in their sort of later years, like, you know, 50s, who say, ah, you know, I wrecked my hearing, and I'd never write what earplugs and I've got chronic back pain. And it's like, all of that stuff can actually be really easily prevented. And I think we're starting to get a handle now. You know, sort of globally and in terms of the Australian arts community, I think there is more of a narrative of like prevention is better than cure, you know, trying to give resources to younger people coming into the industry in terms of how do you look after yourself when you're out on the road? How do you eat well, when you're touring? How do you combat this industry that you know, by and large is so unregulated and requires you to work incredibly long hours and usually unwind with, you know, alcohol or drugs? Healthy Choices are the first ones that you reach for on the shelf, I suppose. But for me, I was never somebody that I've always liked to have a good night's sleep. I'm a total Nana, like, even before I love to happy becoming a monk because I was like, finally, I feel like I'm validated in this choice. Like, people aren't gonna hang shit on me for like wanting to go to bed early because I've got to get up early for the child but but I was doing that before I was a mum. Yeah, so yeah, I guess like, you know, just wanting to feel good and and also, you know, with my own mental health, you know, yoga and well being has been a massive tool and like essential, I think for for managing my own mental well being. So yeah, it's just been really helpful. And I think the more people that I've talked to about it now, I think there's more and more museums and artists that are like happy to have those conversations and say like, I really struggle with this or I use this and You know, barefoot running like people are into all sorts of things. Like, it doesn't matter what it is, unless you've got something that works for you. And it's just, it's just trial and error.

Yeah, yeah, that whole sort of culture of, you know, sex, drugs and rock and roll soda. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like drinking, you know, their boots and going. On they got Hell yeah. A little bit funny. It's good. I've practiced yoga for a long time, as well. And I find nowadays, I just, I just, I do a lot of yoga. I just have been in the photos and breathing. And yeah, I just don't have the energy for anything else. Like, my whole life is so busy and doing. So when I go to uni, I'm just like, ah, like, just just chill out. Yeah,

it's so different. I sold my husband on yoga, the only way I could get into a greater guy was to explain that it's basically lying on the floor with a blanket for 75 minutes. Sounds like you can wear your pjs like, you will be in a flat position. Yeah, it's very chill.

Yeah, and that's the other thing too, like now like, because I used to also work in the fitness industry. So it was, it was all about what your looks like, and what the latest fashion was on the chain and all these whatever's. And now I just literally will wear my DAG is trackies. And I don't care, like if I've got an old jumper or whatever, because then I'm not going upside down. So I don't have to worry about you know, things coming up. And it's like, it's totally changed. And yeah, it's, and there's actually this guy now that does classes, just with breathing. All he does is breathing. And so this is amazing that he's actually guy went to school with that it'd be the last face at the world. We have a you know, a revelation and come come to that sort of sort of living. But yeah, it's wonderful. Love it.

You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I was naming. I think during the early stages of the pandemic, I remember that first lock down that everyone did like the sort of month long one, the very, you know, March or April 2020 whenever it was, and I remember all of my musician, friends, because we everyone had got job keeper. So no one was worried about making ends meet because they were getting paid to stay home or not work. i The overwhelming rhetoric coming out of every single person that I knew was I am so relieved to have this time off like people were just yeah, you know, and obviously, it got worse. And it got more complicated. And people wanted to go to back to work after that. And they couldn't. But yeah, I remember that strike, it was just like this exhale of like, wow, we're just on this hamster wheel 24/7. And just not only being able to not work and not have things in the calendar, but giving yourself the permission to not have to be constantly practicing and hustling and looking for the next thing. I remember thinking like, wow, we're going to learn so much from this. And then if I look at myself and the people around me, I think that we've struggled to implement those lessons on top. Certainly,

I feel the same. Yeah. Yeah. Because you

know, coming back, and then you've got to make hay while the sun shines, right. Like that's, that's it? Yeah. As soon as we had the opportunity to make money and to rebuild profile, and to get those opportunities, sort of, you know, rolling again, we all sort of had to do that. And that's unfortunately, how this industry works. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think there's been a return to balance really,

because I think we're all being sold to that society was ready to open up and everyone, everyone wanted to get out. And everyone wanted to do things. It's like, yeah, oh, we have to be there on the other side of that to meet these people. You know, so there wasn't this. Yeah. Like, I can relate to that completely. I had, we had a we have a thing called the it's like the, it's not as big as the Adelaide Fringe Festival. We call it the Fringe Festival down here. Sorry. I hadn't mean. And I had two shows. And I because I was doing a show with my sister, which I wanted to do. And then I'd said yes to this other one without them thinking, Oh, I actually have to rehearse for this and promote this and organize this. Some reason all I had in my head was the geek just being on stage throwing up and do it. Yeah. And I just said, Oh, my God, what have I done? And so yeah, when they pulled the pin on it, I actually was so relieved. I thought, yeah, God for that, like all the pressure of rehearsal. Yeah. Balancing family life and everything and pushing it the promotion and all that sort of stuff was like, Oh, thank God, that's not happening. But yeah, as time went on, it became like, oh, okay, so yeah, everything's canceled now. And obviously, we weren't locked down. but people weren't doing anything. No one was taking bookings. And I was encouraging groups of people and you couldn't dance. There's no dance. Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you what, but yeah. And I said to myself, I'll just remember this time how good it is. And then you forget, but now I've really pulled back from gigs since then, like I've really, and, and I think, to just looking at, you know, my family life and the balance that we have, like you said about before, we're talking about the monetary reward for doing a gig, you also have to look at, you know, the emotional strain and the physical titling. And I just also got sick of carrying my stuff around, like, just the thought of loading the car just made me do it.

Like I complain constantly about being a drummer. I'm like, why? Worst life choice? I wouldn't change it. But yeah, totally. It's, I for me to say yes to things. Usually, there has to be a house kit like that. It has to be a gig I really, really want to do if I have to be wiring my own stuff. Because, you know, maybe our sport when I was in Melbourne, and there are lots of house kits and venues but yeah, I'm just that it has to be the this the path of least resistance. Yes. This is my philosophy for taking on new things. Yeah, I and I do a lot of like, you know, guest lecturing and stuff in unis with music students, and you know, younger people coming into the industry. And I always one thing I always say as a piece of advice is like, if someone asks you to do something, before you say yes, just pause, pause. Because once that yes is out there, you can't retract it. Yeah. And like you've probably said yes, without really understanding the true scope of, of what's within that opportunity, you know, because like, you probably just gonna get a text that says, hey, free on June 16, for a gig and of text. We need we need a little bit more detail here. Like, you know what time? What's the soundcheck? What's the repertoire? How many hours do I need to commit to learning this material? Do I need to bring my own key out? What will I wear? What's the fee? Like? You really you need to I always say that you should reply with a big laundry list of questions. And you know, really, like put them on the back foot like this is a way that everyone in this industry, I think can be trying to educate each other as to what's an acceptable working environment. Because like you said before, there's so many young people, unfortunately, he'll just jump at the chance to do something for exposure. And like I'm not saying that doesn't have a place it does. For a very, very limited time in your early Korea. But it's I think the way that we fall over is like, oh, when is the point when you transition out of that? And who tells you when to transition out of it. Unfortunately, there's no one else standing there being like, Okay, it's time to do this now. You know, we found that coming back to Perth, I think that's why my husband and I were both completely run ragged at the end of what's today's the second of January. So the end of last year, we you know, transition back, we packed up our house in Melbourne on four days notice to be able to get into wa so like when I say it was quick, it was quick. You know, we really just had to hit the ground running, readjust to living here readjust to living in a pre pandemic society drop all of our trauma or somehow like hardly process it. Yeah. And then like, start getting back into the music community and be like, Hey, we're here. We want to work. You know, that was massive transition, like you know, starting again in a new city is just the same I think as as starting your career. When Yeah, yeah. It's like that process of having a duel that networking and stuff again. That's yeah, took a toll for sure. I think it's good to have that first 12 months back in Perth, like under the belt now, even though it was from here. I hadn't been here for a long time. And he hadn't been here at all. So

yeah, it's like basically starting afresh, isn't it? Because yeah, yeah, that that was something I had. I'm not sure if you know, Georgia field. She's a Melbourne. Yeah, amazing. Yes, she is. She's amazing. I love Georgia. So she came on the podcast in its first season. And she sort of related the time she had off when she had her children to basically starting her career again, because you're going back into venues, there might be a different, you know, manager and they're like, oh, what we're going to bring, you know, yeah, yeah, it was that was really challenging for here. And yeah, yeah. And I

think one of the things that I was really lucky actually, when I had when I became a mother was that it wasn't like I disappeared from society because I was on this sort of mat leave and the rest of the world kept going, the whole world stopped. So it was actually there was like a bit of solidarity in that I was protected from that, I suppose unique isolation in that everyone was isolated. And everyone was sort of going through That existential crisis of like, oh my gosh, should I just start playing easy to become a data analyst? Everyone was going through that at the same time. So that was I would say that was one of the Silver Linings for sure. Some they were the

last the sky seven days to slow down it's only when made outside your daughter's

two and a half. Yeah. So what are your days look like now?

Yeah, so we are she has been going to childcare she started pretty early. I think that was because I wanted I wanted to go back to work at the time in Melbourne, because we were in lockdown. And I, I was just really struggling, you know, with having no life. So we put her in, and she started going three days a week, and she's kept going three days a week, which has been really good. And she now goes to my mums as well like another sort of one or two days a week. So actually were extremely privileged and fortunate is basically what I'm trying to say and that we have close to five days a week of of care for her. Which means in those five days, my husband, I both pretty much just flat out working. I wouldn't say that we get a lot of time to practice, even though we have all of set with all of that care, like I'm studying as well. So my course load is sort of one to two days a week. And I work I work as a peer support worker now. For a business where we support people on NDIS for mental illness. So I work two to two and a half days a week. Then my course load, I would say is at least 20 to 30 hours a week. And then yeah, there's all this like practice that I'm allegedly doing, which I can tell you in full confidence that I just never do. And does she look after my daughter goes to bed at night? It's so funny. I often I'm like there's parents out there that keep going after their kid goes to bed base. I'm not one of them like that. That is the end of my day. Come 738 o'clock at night. I'm a vegetable. I am good at getting up early. Actually he is too because he was yeah, he's we're an early rising family, my daughter included. So I will usually we will set our alarms for about 430 or five and get up an hour before her. And that time. For me that's really, really integral time for sort of self care. And like I'll do my own yoga practice then and just like, yeah, just get a jump on the day, maybe go and make a quick list of what else I need to get done. And yeah, once she's awake, obviously, it's just like a long form negotiation and getting dressed and eating rice bubbles. You can leave the house and yeah, that's sort of the routine really weekends. I usually try to keep like the Saturday morning as a really quiet family time. Because you know, she's got a big week to like, yeah, being out of the house every day. So that's Yeah, even though the weekends is like, you know, it's it's work time, I reckon. Yeah. sandeels and I both probably work in some form or capacity. Seven days a week, we're chipping away at stuff, I would say seven days a week. We're using her nap time and like tag teaming on the weekends for sure. To get stuff done. But yeah, that Saturday morning is like sort of the Sacred Family time of yeah, just being really slow. And in our jammies.

Yeah. Because that's the thing like, I don't know, I don't want to judge other people in the way they do things. But I could not be bothered rushing around on the weekends. Like I feel like we rushed around enough during the week and saying being respectful that your kids are rushing around to a time to to reset and readjust and decompress. And that sort of thing, too. It's like, like we've we've managed to avoid Saturday morning sport for nearly 15 years.

Oh, wow. That's actually remarkable. Yes, it is.

We've been very lucky. But now my youngest is started playing tennis. So it's like tennis. Is that safe anyway? Oh my god. What is this

world? Yeah, I know. I mean, look, when I was a kid, I went to school on a Saturday morning for concert band. Oh, yeah. Right. So yeah, I had before school and after school every day. And then my parents would have to drive me on a Saturday morning to band wait in the car for three hours. Yeah, yeah. But I guess things are different then because you could trust your kids to go out and make their own way around a little bit more and like sort of get public transport. Like I don't know what it's like in that Gambia. But I think you know, when I sort of forecast what it's like to be the parent of a teenage girl which I will be I'm like, oh my god, it's things are gonna have to be so it's just so different to the way that my parents were so relaxed and bohemian with us. We were just doing our own thing. Like, you know, lucky, everything worked out fine. But yeah, we were on a pretty long leash. And I don't I, I just don't think you can parent that way. Probably. anymore with the same confidence, unfortunately, I wish to think about it all the time.

Yeah. And yeah, the whole social media thing that's been that's a tricky one to navigate to, because we didn't grow up with that ourselves. And how do you sort of had an eye? It's a tricky one. That's that's one that's constant work in

China, it's so hard, like, I'm really conscious of being on my phone in front of Matilda. And, you know, the more that she's going to see me on my phone, the more she's going to desire a phone as as cool thing to play with. So yeah, I do. Yeah, I tried to sort of be in the other room, if I have to, like send a quick text or, you know, get back to somebody. But it's also that thing, I suppose if just, if someone needs a response from me, and I'm with my child, they will they'll, they can just wait until, until I'm ready to respond to them. Like, I definitely don't feel that pressure to send someone an instant response. Like I think that there's enough. There's enough conversation and visibility around parenting and working for yourself now that I think we can all support each other to I've had other mums say to me, like, I can't get back to you right now. My kids like doing a poo in a park in the lawn. can relate? I don't even need to write that message like exactly.

Yeah, absolutely. Yes. And I think, yeah, in the same way, I feel like businesses because of the social media, and because they're on like, it's 24/7. People feel like they can send people messages anytime day or night. And because sometimes I'm so guilty

in the morning, because I'm like, Hello, world.

Yes, I feel like people have to be really strict with their boundaries. And then people have to respect that. It's like, oh, we're gonna do so yeah. Great. It's a whole new world, isn't it? We're learning to navigate together.

I'm struggling to find a genie. And

so you say about your working on the weekend? Do you ever feel like I like to talk to all my moms about this concept of mom guilt? And I hate the term. I wish it didn't exist, but I know it does. What does that mean to you? Or how do you feel about that?

Yeah, I mean, I think it certainly exists. And I think it's an almost inescapable phenomenon. Yeah, a couple are earlier last year now. 2022. So I went away to Tasmania for 10 days. And I did a a creative music intensive with the Australian Art orchestra, which, when I applied for, I mean, I started the year last year, like, I was still breastfeeding, like, I breastfed until she was just under two. And I just applied for it and thought, you know, what, if this is meant to happen, I'll get in, they'll give me a place, I'll rediscover what it was like to be a museum again, and like be a creative person, because I'm really deprioritize being a creative in my own right. That whole time, really, I'd say I was living in Melbourne, like I just really focused on festival work, and which is a different type of creative work and problem solving. But it's not writing and playing music. So that was a really, that was a really big thing, you know, going away for such a long time. And I'd waned her by then, but still, I remember right up until I got on the plane. I was like, I'm gonna turn around and go home. This is crazy. Like, who am I to take 10 days away from my child and to put that load on to my partner? And yeah, I did. I did have a lot of guilt for sure. About what, like I said before, what the cost of that was for everyone else. And you know, we're lucky that we have so much family support, so I really just didn't have to worry about her. She could not have cared less that I was gone. Definitely was harder for me. But yeah, I it was that was a big shift for me going on that trip. I'm so glad I did it like it was there was about 25 of us from around Australia and a couple of people came from overseas and we were in the central highlands of Tasmania, super remote, little village. It was just just out group each day. And one of the other producers from the orchestra who was sort of the operations manager He brought his partner and their young child down from Melbourne and their child was very similar age to my daughter. And I had this moment where we were watching a performance, which was a very, very moving performance of some Aboriginal singers and song makers from up in Arnhem Land. And I was sitting there watching and I was watching this mum play with her, bought her little boy, and I just my whole being just imploded into tears, like it was just like this catharsis of really profoundly missing my daughter. But at the same time, I was so grateful for being able to be there. But I think just realizing, really, really realizing in my core for the first time, that my whole identity was completely different. And that that person that I was watching, play with her child was me like, that was myself. And that was, yeah, I just sort of hadn't really realized it and looked at it from the outside. Like that until that moment. But yeah, the guilt that I had to sort of wade through, I think to take that time for myself was immense. Yeah, and yeah, there's always like people, and I feel like people make comments as well. You know, if you're, if you happen to be related to anyone who parented in a different generation, it's very hard to escape. Yeah. Other people's points of view. Absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, it is, it is a thing. And I think that's probably for me why? Because I do, like I said, you know, I've got her almost in five days of care, which is a lot. So the time that I do spend with her, I want to be really, really present. And I think that's for me, I'm able to sort of put them on gear on the back burner, because I know that I am really present with that time. And nothing else is allowed to intrude into the time that we spend together. You know, like when she comes home at the end of the day we play we have a dance party like um, yeah, I feel like I'm a fairly present parent. Maybe I'm just telling myself that to obey the monkey. But yeah, I usually I wouldn't say that. My thoughts elsewhere when I'm with her, I suppose.

Yeah. So after you went on that trip, was it then did you feel like I guess you talked about the realizing who your your identity had changed was that then when you came back? Did you then find it difficult to then have those two parts of your identity coexist? Was that a challenge then? Or was that really?

Yeah? No, I haven't found it to be a challenge. I think, you know, what it's actually makes it a lot easier is the fact that I'm able to share music with my daughter. And it's such a huge, I can see in her that that's something that she loves. And I guess I'm quite fortunate. Like, I mean, for example, she wouldn't let she never let me Of course play my instrument at home. I'm not allowed to do any practice ever because toddlers are very self centered world to revolve around them. So if your attention is elsewhere that she and she's not like a wallflower about it. She's like a flaming volcano of rage about I'm not paying attention to her. So yeah, I was never able to even even like, you know, anecdotally play the ukulele and sing her song was not allowed. So I was thinking when I was in Tassie, I was like, what, what's the get around for this, because this is really pissing me off. And so I thought she's, she, she wants it to be about her. So I'll write her a song about her. Yeah, write this song about her, which I recently actually recorded. And I'm just gonna go on a release that I'm doing in a few months time. But that was, you know, one. So I was just looking for creative ways to bring her into the that world so that we could share it together because it's not going to look the same as when I wasn't a parent. And I could go into a room and sit down and have uninterrupted time working on songs or playing my instrument. I can only do that when she's not in the house. Or when she's in theory asleep, like it's getting that time is hard, I suppose is what I'm trying to say. So there's other ways that we can engage together in music. Luckily, it's something that she really loves. Like I took her to a gig last night. There's a band that plays here first Sunday of every month at at the fish pub, and it's just so family friendly and such a vibe like I actually the same bands been going for more than 30 years. So I used to go and see this this same band with my parents. It's so wicked like yeah, being able to kind of bring it into the new generation take her and Yeah, lucky for me, she does. She loves to boogie. Like I've set a pretty strong role model that the dance floor is a place for like cutting sick and inhibitions go so yeah, she's got good staying power on the dance floor. And that's that was it's just so much fun to include her in that so I feel fortunate that it's something that she's willing to get on board with because I definitely if that wasn't the case, there's no way I could bring myself to force her to love music like I I couldn't care less if whether or not she you know wants to become a musician. Despite having two musician parents. I just, I suppose I care that She feels a sense of release from listening to music and a sense of joy and happiness and fulfillment on some level, because that's what I get from it. So yeah, trying to share that with her it has, I would say been the number one joy as a parent being able to share that with her

it's soundly whether that Rolla cries this guy.

I'm sad. And, you know, the worst thing you can do with music is tell someone how it's supposed to be like, there's Yeah, there really. And I think there's so much of that, that I see in, you know, particularly studying music at a tertiary level, like trying to unlearn the learning of someone being like this is this is jazz, this is classical lateral, this stupid labels that we put on ourselves, which, for me, coming back to Perth has actually been really beautiful and liberating, because I'm fine. I'm in the part of my life now where I just don't care anymore about any of that stuff, like I, you know, sort of was identified so strongly with this like box of, you know, being a very classically educated person for so long and only being, you know, playing in orchestras. And that was what I wanted to do. And then I was like, Well, I couldn't possibly play jazz, or I couldn't be a drummer. And then when I went to Melbourne, to live, I remember going to a jam session that one of the first weeks I was there with a friend and he said, Are you going to get out? But I was like, No. And then I just had a moment of realizing like, no one knows me. Like, I could get up right now. And just, for all they know, I'm a badass drama. Like, maybe, maybe I just like start something new, you know? And so I just sort of got up and was like, I'll just gonna, I'm going to say this is the thing that I do. And yeah, overcoming that self stigma, I think is a really a big, it's takes time. I would say that's the best thing about betting in my 30s. And just not caring what people think anymore. It's definitely because it's your it's your everyone's just their own worst enemy. Really? Like that's what takes the longest to overcome.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's a common theme with people chat, too. It's like 30s and 40s. It's like, literally, you could not give a shit. It's wonderful. When you

think back on your younger years, and it's like, Oh, my God, what did I think I What will I think was wrong with me like,

yeah. And you think all the things that you could have done, but you didn't do? Because you held yourself back? Yeah. Barney Hill. Yeah. So funny thing is,

I can tell I'm super old now. Because I find myself thinking things like youth is wasted on the young. I'm like, I'm an old person. I'm there I've arrived

Is there anything else that you want to mention about what it's like being a mom and doing your thing?

God just said, I just don't, don't get it right, more than half the time or, or any of the time ever. I think it's just so funny, because, you know, sometimes you have days that you just think I nailed it. And then the next day is just like, the apocalypse. Just like the tire can change. So so quickly, you know, you go from and as I think, this year, I for the past year, maybe we were just really, you know, our immune systems were compromised for being in lockdown. But as the sickness just really got to us, and that was a really difficult thing to contend with. So yeah, we had days where everything was like, perfect. And then the next day, like, you know, my daughter's in emergency on a respirator. They can just take so quickly. No, I don't have anything else. Really, I've got no words of wisdom, just just try to you know, take it one day at a time. I think everyone just needs to be more gentle on themselves. So that's probably and particularly where we are now. I don't want to say post pandemic, because we're still in it. But I think everyone's very tired. Actually, I think there's a deep fatigue and exhaustion for people in the creative industry, that, you know, we're picking up the tab now for the last couple of years, like in terms of, you know, emotionally in the energy and it's taken a toll. And I think, I think just to acknowledge that for ourselves, as well as you know, acknowledge that the space that we're holding for our children and and For other mums as well, like, I'm so lucky, I've got some of my, my best friends who I went to uni with, you know, a million years ago. And we all studied music together, there were all mums over here together at the same time. And it's so funny because even though I finally after years, we all live in the same place, the majority of our contact with each other is just sending each other like frantic voice memos and never seeing each other and just being like, I really want to see you. It's been three and a half months. And you finally see each other and it's just like, you get five minutes of conversation, because your kids are just running around. Doing Yeah, someone's trying to throw themselves in front of a car like,

yeah. Oh, yeah. My sister. And I often joke about that. Like, it was nice to catch up. I don't feel like I spoke to you at all. But

yeah, totally. Yeah. So I think you know, just try to have that space for each other as well. But also know that you can, you can take up that space, that's something that I'm still working on that very much, just allowing myself to take up the space of feeling tired and feeling overwhelmed sometimes. And I've, I'm also very guilty of putting myself down because I've only got one child. So I often invalidate my own parenting challenges, because there's only one of her, which is really stupid. And I'm trying to work on not doing comparing myself to people that have more children and being like, Oh, they've got it worse than me. Yeah, those are all things. For sure.

No, I'm good on you. But thank you so much for sharing your time with me today. It's been lovely chatting to you.

So lovely. And thanks for just like running the podcast. It's so awesome.

Oh, I just love it. I just love talking to people. And I don't know, I just, it's just a lot of fun. I don't know. It's just a fun thing. Yeah. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

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