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Sami Lange US mixed media paper artist S2 Ep31 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Sami Lange is a mixed media paper artist living and working in Phoenix, Arizona, and she's mum of 2 children. Sami grew up in a creative home, and sees art and creativity as a fully incorporated part of family life, with her children having access to her studio. Her paper artwork is made of hundreds and sometimes thousands of paper circles and shapes stitched together. Each shape is hand-cut by Sami with scissors, dyed multiple times in water baths, and then dried, taped and stitched. Sami has worked with paper dyeing for over 14 years. She has also done furniture painting, drawing, collage and print making. After an evacuation of her hometown of Santa Rosa, California in 2017, Sami's family was blessed to have their home spared after the Tubbs fire swept through the city and burned down over 5,000 homes. This life changing event forced Sami to re-evaluate her art practice, reflect on what is truly important and what makes a thoughtful piece of art worth making. **This episode contains discussions about post natal depression and anxiety** Visit Samis website - https://www.samilangeart.com/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/samilangeart/ Frogmans http://frogmans.net/ Shop the art supplies Sami uses here Connect with the podcast - https://www.instagram.com/art_of_being_a_mum_podcast Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Semi Lang semi is a mixed media paper artist living and working in Phoenix, Arizona, and she's a mom of two children. Semi grew up in a creative home and sees art and creativity as a fully incorporated part of family life, with her children having access to her studio. Her paper artwork is made of hundreds and sometimes 1000s of paper circles and shapes stitched together. Each shape is hand cut by Sammy with scissors died multiple times in waterbirds. And then dried, taped and stitched Sammy has worked with paper dyeing for over 14 years. She's also done furniture painting, drawing, collage and printmaking. After an evacuation of our hometown of Santa Rosa, California in 2017 semis family was blessed to have their home spared after the Tubbs fire swept through the city, and burned down over 5000 homes. This life changing event for Sammy to reevaluate her art practice, reflect on what is truly important. And what makes a thoughtful piece of art worth making. This episode contains discussions around postnatal depression and anxiety. Thank you so much for doing this. So it's just lovely to meet you and to have you on so much for having me. I'm so excited. So you're in Phoenix, Arizona. So what's it like there at the moment? Is it is it cold and snowing or anything? Live it? So Gloria, so in Phoenix, it doesn't usually snow, I mean, not really a couple hours north it will. But here it's about 65 degrees in January, that's about 18 degrees Celsius. And it's just so glorious. It's basically the perfect time and weather. We've only lived here for about a year and a half, we essentially moved the day everything shut down when the pandemic started. That's when we moved out of state. Yeah, so it was a little bit of a wild ride. And it was very, very hot, like 120 degrees for what felt like two straight months, and that's about 48 degrees Celsius. But they always joke that the whole state is air conditioned. And you know, it was a little bit better this last summer. So we transitioned really well now, I think. So where were you before? Where did you move from? We were in Northern California, and I was there for close to 20 years. So as a little bit of a change of pace, but the fires hit where we were at. And so we just we kept having to evacuate. And we knew a lot of people that were losing their houses, and we just eventually decided that we really couldn't raise our kids there. You know, we just we just was really stressful. And so I was actually a tenured librarian there. And I decided, okay, I'm giving up tenure, we're just going to start over, we'll just do whatever. And so we put our house on the market even before I had a job. And then thankfully, everything worked out because then the pandemic hit, and then the job almost didn't come through. And so it was a little wild there for a while, but we're settled. And, you know, we're grateful that we've kind of had, you know, as much luck as we've had, but I mean, you know, it's been rough for all moms everywhere. Oh, yeah, goodness. Yeah, that sounds really scary. The fire's like, we've got like, we get quite a lot of bushfires here in Australia, so I can appreciate what you say. I've never been in that position personally, but I'd certainly understand what you're saying. We had to evacuate. We actually chose to be one day and then that afternoon all of the police came around our neighborhood and told everyone to get out. Well, there was one night where we were we were thinking about if we wanted to or if our home was going to burn down we didn't know and And we're kind of reflecting like what choices we wish we'd made. You know, that was 2017. So was the Tubbs fire. So I had a lot of friends and colleagues lose their homes in that fire and it just sort of hit randomly. Yeah, I remember that night thinking about the studio and thinking about my work and be like, well, that's okay. If we lose everything, you know, that's fine. We're safe, which of course, that's, you know, the truth. And then we got back and it just was this very surreal experience. There was ash everywhere, you know, and then I went into the studio, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, like, it made me question everything. And of course, the whole community was in trauma, and then it just kept happening. You know, it just kept like, every year we would evacuate and then someone else we knew would lose their house. And it was a really stressful way to live. I don't know how people do that year after year, and it dangerous things like that. So you are a paper artist, I've never chatted to anybody that does your kind of art. So this is cool. Can you tell me about what you do in the process and all that kind of stuff? I would love to and I it's so funny. I have such a hard time deciding what to call myself. Occasionally, when I'll send out emails, it'll say simulating paper artists. And then next week, I'll send you mixed media, paper artists. And then I'll say print maker and mixed media artists. You know, it's just, I mean, when I think of paper artists, I don't think of my work, but I'm making work out of paper. So I'm actually a printmaker, which is kind of where the mixed media piece comes in. I I consider myself conceptually a print maker by trade. And that was what my BFA was in. That's what I went to school for. And about 15 years ago, I did some assistantships at print and press workshop called Frog man's in the US. And it's this amazing workshop. And it lasts for two weeks. And I had gotten an assistantship for three weeks. And so you go and then you kind of help run a class. Yeah, so I had been in a class with an artist, Tim high. And he does these amazing screen prints. And what's so interesting is he basically takes like a wood stipple. So it's kind of as almost a sharp as like a very sharp pencil point. And he'll block out the parts. And he basically stippled an entire scene in a gradation gradient of screen printing, which is just insane from a technical standpoint. But he would start that by dyeing the paper, which I loved, because it's like, instead of being a white printmaking paper, you just went to pastel yellow, or you just went to PDH, or, you know, and he would kind of just let the process flow. And so that was the first introduction, I got to the paper, dyeing it all. And then I sort of like did that, you know, it sort of became this tool that I would use for, I guess, about 11 years, but I kind of didn't know what to do with it. You know, it's like I do a painting. And then there would be this cut shape that I like, glued on the painting. And then I finished me like, okay, but like, why is that glued piece of paper? They're like, what is? Yeah, and so then I then we had the fires. And then I had that night where I thought, gosh, you know, what happens if the studio burns down? That would be okay, so then when I got back, I just had this sensation of thinking, Okay, well, if I was okay with it burning down, then like, what are we doing? You know, at that point, I've been an artist professionally for about 13 years, but I was working in education full time. So it's always on the side. And I just, I thought, Okay, well, maybe this isn't me, it was sort of the first time that I'd ever questioned if I was an artist, or if that was my identity or anything like that. Yeah. And so I took a break, I took like a three month break. And that was the biggest, that was probably the only break I can think of in my entire life of not making art. Yeah. And then I've always had a home studio. And so I did at the time, my kids were really little, they were like two and three. And so we had a baby gate up on that studio, which was a room and I would just I would walk by like 30 times a day because I was always chasing them. And then one day, I saw a little circle that was on the ground. And it's like something clicked and I thought, oh my gosh, the work is the paper like stop putting in a drawing, stop putting in a print, stop putting it on painting, stop doing it. It's just the paper. And so it sort of was this avalanche of creating what I call the paper quilts. I don't really know what to call them but they're basically hundreds and sometimes 1000s of cut paper that I hand cut with scissors, and then I dye them 123 times in water baths I'm just using die in like jars with the shapes put in them and then I dry them. Thankfully in Arizona they dry really quickly. And then I tape them down and then stitch them and so they just kind of become On this piece that's created from, you know, white printmaking paper to start. So that's an incredibly intense, like labor labor intensive process, that's incredible. When it comes to like, choosing your colors, is it just a really intuitive thing, like when you're mixing up your dyes, it's a really intuitive thing. I, sometimes I wish I was a more organized, you know, methodical color picker, sometimes I have this vision that I'm going to make all of these color formulas and have this book and I go through it and I, but it never works. That way, there's something that's so that is so out of my control when I do the water bath. And I feel like the process in general is so controlled, that it's this way that forces me to not have control. And so I need to keep that incorporated. And there will be sometimes I mean, I kind of learned my lesson repeatedly with this because sometimes I'll do you know, a light read or kind of a reddish orange. And then I'll do maybe a deep dark blue purple dye, I don't think this will be so beautiful. And then it comes out and it's basically mud. It's like they died over each other and it looks horrible. And it's like, oh, well, they're just hand cut 100 circles, and then I killed them and that way around. Like, I know that. But there's something kind of exhilarating even though this is not a big risk. It's like this small risk way to have fun. And so because the process and the cutting and the dying is just so a part of our daily lives, I always have a home studio. So it's always like there's something in the die pads or something that I'm cutting. I think when I didn't, didn't do as well, with my time when I was younger in the studio, that would have bothered me. But now I just sort of embrace all the failures. It's almost like I'm trying to fail a lot. Because when I, when I feel big, sometimes I fail forward. And so that really helps my practice. And so even though the work is really tight, there's a ton of play, which is refreshing and you know, uplifting. So, yeah, absolutely. I love that. So does that challenge you like your own thinking then? Like, is that been a process for you to work through of accepting? When things don't work? It's okay, that sort of stuff. Yeah, I think I've had to do that for like seven straight years. I feel like my my youngest is, or my oldest is seven. And I feel like this idea I had, what being an adult was is hysterical. I look back to being a kid and thinking, oh, when you're an adult, you can choose everything. I feel like, you know, I had really bad postpartum depression after my kids were born. And so that was a real shocker. And that lasted for several years. And then kind of right when I sort of came out of that in the fog it cleared and I was feeling good, then the fires hit, then that lasted for like four years, then we you know, we transitioned to an out of state move, I gave up a job that I thought I would basically have my whole career and then a global pandemic hits. So it's like seven years of this like straight sort of, you never know what you're gonna get. And I would say in the past couple of months, it's been sort of exhilarating because I'm just like, Okay, we never know what we're gonna get let's just go for broke in the studio you know, it's like this safe space to just go why Oh, yeah, it's almost like it's just it gives this giving you permission just to just to just take the pressure off and have no expectations because you know, the unknown is there and it could happen at any moment. So it's like well, okay, let's just go for it. Go for hot pink in the water bath. So you've always been a creative person, like as a child and growing up you've always been making? Yeah, I would say it's a it's a serious core identity. I think I mean Some of my earliest memories were like looking at art books. My mom was primarily a stay at home mom. But until I was seven, she was a graphic designer. So some of my earliest memories are going with her. And I'm at the age and she's at the age where nothing was digital. So it was all storyboard. So like, I remember going into her work office and seeing all the transparent paper and the different layers taped down, you know, like, kind of the more old school graphic design. And so she was always doing art stuff with me, and she's more of a realist er. And then I got into I mean, I took art classes all the way up through high school, then I I was doing like furniture, painting and mosaics, I mean, just something always creative. And then college is really where a printmaking head, and I sort of happened into it accidentally, I didn't, I wasn't, I was not planning on being an art major. But then you go to college and things happen, and then I got a BFA so. I was gonna ask you about your children. So you briefly mentioned your oldest is seven. So how many children have you got? I've got two, I've got a girl that seven and a boy that six. Yeah, right. And they are yet the same age as yours. They're hysterical. It's a, I have to say someone told me years ago when mine were babies that these were sort of the golden years. And they were right. I mean, I just I absolutely love, I love that they can tell me what they want. I love that we're past potty training. I love that. They can hold a pencil and a paintbrush, like in a different way. You know, because we do a ton of creative time. I get up early before I go to my librarian job. And I'm in the studio every morning. And we just, I think, I think because I grew up with such a creative mom. And in such a creative household. I never sort of questioned that as, as how you live, you know, it's like, that was how we lived. And my dad worked full time in the government and then retired and became a teacher. And he was always writing, you know, it's like creativity was just the lifestyle. And so I never, I never had any other expectation of what I would be like and how I would raise my kids. And so and we didn't have kids right away. My husband and I, we waited like 10 years not not as a plan, just, that's when we decided we were ready. And you know, and so then I had always been art making. And so then my kids always made art with me. And I remember right before I got married with my husband, we were just talking about this the other day, and I said you remember, like the week before we got married, and we got married really young. I was 21. Or I thought that was young, because I freaked out. I'm like, we're too young. I'm like, This is crazy. We should do this, what are we thinking? And then I said, you know, I just I need to tell you, I'm never going to make less art. I said, I'm not going to get married to you and you know, clean or something like that. I was like, I just need you to know, this is who I am. And you guys I know, this is who you are like, we're good. You know, and granted, I will occasionally clean now. I did go back on that. But but as far as the studio time, it has never changed, you know, and so even when they were babies, it's like they were painting with me and they were in the studio and I've always had a home studio, which I have to say is really really important. I mean, that's just a total game changer. And so there's always we've always had a room that's been my studio, the dedicated space and that it's just super important. You know, we were talking about how you have all your kids artwork. I have drawers in my flat files that are theirs. It's like they know that those are their drawers and there's their paper and there's their work and you know, so it's just kind of how we live I guess which makes it possible to make the work and also work so I'm grateful for that so you get up early, you do some in the morning. Do you do do you then go back to it at night? I do. i i This is so I have this funny story. And it has to do with me wearing a bikini to work, and it will, like we're going on a tangent, but really, it's going to come back, if I can remember to get us back, it's gonna come back. So Right. So right after my son was born as a college librarian, you do a lot of teaching. And so I had gone back, and I had both my kids at my last job when I was on the tenure track. So I had, you know, I was trying to get tenure, I was teaching or student observations. And I was teaching a class and I was wearing, I remember this beautiful blue linen dress, it was so beautiful. And underneath that I was wearing a bikini, because I had just returned to work. And I had not done laundry. And so I remember be teaching in this class, and like, you know, pointing to something on the screen. And in my mind, I'm thinking about this bikini that I'm wearing, and the fact that I have no backup bikini. And it's not like it was a bikini that fit. It was like the pre pregnancy bikini. So it's like, dire, you know, and so I'm, I'm like, Okay, what should I do? I had to stay late teaching that I'm like, should I go to Target and buy a backup backup bikini, or should I, like I because I didn't have time to do laundry, like, forget that they were the kids are gonna be up all night. At that point, my son was five months old. And my daughter was 19 months. Yeah. And I was like trying to, you know, teach and all this stuff. So then as I'm trying to teach this class, I'm like, You know what, clearly, this isn't working. Like you need to figure out a way to change your schedule, cut stuff out, do whatever it takes, so that you're not thinking about backup bikini is like is your emergency work plan. And so I ended up just getting totally into productivity research, and like trying all these different time hacks and all this stuff. It got to such a point that then I started talking about it so much at work that then one of my supervisors was like, Could you start doing some productivity trainings, then I started making videos and classes and like kind of creating these mini cohorts. And so then I started doing all these very enjoyable, small groups about productivity and how we think about our energy and what choices we make. And that how much time and energy our decisions take us and cognitive load, and like, and all that stuff. And so that kind of helped me reset everything after my kids were born. So I started just really focusing on the art making, as opposed to worrying about this idea that the dishes had to be done, or this idea that like, there was one year where one of my strategies was, I thought, I don't need matching socks, who cares if I have matching socks, so I stopped doing all map all socks hurting, like, you know, but then I realized I'm like, You know what people actually can see your socks. Like, maybe that's not the strategy that you want to do, you know, like, a snowflake sock. And like, you know, like, so. So anyways, I tried a whole bunch of stuff. And I ended up cutting a whole bunch of things out. And then kind of over the last year, I realized that I had gotten really, really good about managing the time so that I could have studio time and Eve, like in the morning and night. But then I realized I was tired at night. And I was like, alright, well, what's the deal, like, You got everything down, you need to get down and you have this time. So what's the block and so then I just sort of started paying more attention to my energy. You know, like, when we're at the park, normally I'm, you know, talking to the kids and engaging with the kids and, and then I started taking more photos, there's some really beautiful photos on my camera, things like bark, you know, things that are kind of make, they're the textures, and colors and stuff that will eventually make themselves, you know, back into the studio and back into my water baths and things like that. And so it just sort of started checking in a little bit more about how I was feeling and how my energy was, which one makes me a lot more patient. And two, I feel like then it gives me that little push so that when the kids are asleep, then I can go in and do like 30 minutes in the studio and listen to a podcast or, you know, Pandora or like just a little music, and then I can go to bed. And then when I get up early, I'm ready to roll. You know, like that early time with coffee in the studio. That's probably my favorite time of day. Aside from the hysterical jokes and questions were like, I don't know how to answer that. And I know you're six. But I don't know how to answer that was like constant skill testing as a parent, like, what's the answer here? When when Diggs asked me he asked me really wacky question the other day, and I had I could not think of a thing and I said, Well, what do you think? Because I just thought, I cannot think of anything to say, Hey, this is ridiculous. And then he came out with this great big, long winded explanation. Excellent. That sounds good on you. So we're going to use that strategy. My daughter asked me last week, how was man created? She gets one question at bedtime. And I'm like, um, what was your other question? Oh, you know, using your strategy. It's dates, definitely. Because then the main probably bedtimes not the greatest time for it because it gets them thinking again, but Why is that at bedtime? All these questions come out? It's like I wrote this ridiculous Facebook post years ago. And I don't know how I can remember exactly what it was now but Digby asked, How do you make bricks? What is this thing happened where the colors come from? He clearly thought of the language why do we talk in this accent? All this stuff just one after the other understanding going tomorrow we'll do this tomorrow so I'm guessing the the, the key dyes and stuff that you use then like non toxic and stuff like were you able to keep keep doing that while you were pregnant? Like there was no sort of worry there. So I use red dye, you know that really, really common dye that you can find with fabric and at all the craft stores and, and I've used both powder and liquid but right now I primarily use liquid. And as a printmaker, you know, I just threw down the hours in the studio, I mean, I would go to the shop and be there for like 12 hours, and I would leave with these horrible migraines. And so when I graduated college, I just decided I wanted a totally non toxic studio. So after college, I transitioned to essentially everything non toxic, non toxic print inks, acrylic paint, you know, so, and that was kind of part of the plan with having a home studio was that I wanted everything to just be comfortable. And so I've never fortunately had to transition any of the materials when I was pregnant, I could just use everything. Yeah, so that's been really, really helpful. Just having the kids around, and they use all my supplies. I ran into a photo the other day, my son when he was two, and he had, you know, those little edges, sketch those magnetic things gone. So he was too and he hadn't shirt off. And he was so proudly holding up on his little belly, that I just sketch with, like some circles cut on it. And at the time, I was excluded or drawn on it. I was exclusively doing circles. So he was like, so proud that he had his circle. And then I started finding and we got them into looking back, probably they were really little we got them into using kid scissors really young. Yeah. And so I would find these really jagged edges, like circle square shaped things in with my servers. I'm like, Oh, he was contributing to my pile, like he got on scissors. And so it's nice, because they just think they make merit. And sometimes I'll find these piles of glue and circles. And they're mine on like, something I'm like I didn't make has been in here stealing my materials. But it's pretty, that's beautiful. Isn't it like that, obviously, it's, you know, they see it, and it's made such an impact on them and that they want to they're a part of it, you know, that's their way of being a part of it. And that's lovely that they're welcomed into that space that they they can be there. And it's not like oh, you have to stay out because it's either it's not safe, or I don't want you to touch or whatever. Like it. That's lovely. It's such a beautiful environment. They're like little human bodies of glue. It's like wherever you go. They go. Attached to I had a funny conversation with my daughter the other day. We have, I have these rules. Like one rule is don't talk to mom while she's in the bathroom. So that's to me, like even if I don't need to go the bathroom. That's a safe space. So I was walking to the bathroom. I've I like announced I put my arms up and they go, I'm going to the bathroom. My arms are up. I'm like announcing to the household. And I'm walking and she's finally and I'm walking and I go I'm going to the bathroom. She's following still talking. I go I'm going to the bathroom and she goes, Yes. And she stops and she kind of puts her finger up and she goes, but you're not in the bathroom. And I go you know what? You're ready. You are so right. Okay, what do you need so that I can go to the bathroom? Oh my gosh, it was so hysterical. That's gold and not bad. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. So if you don't mind would Is it okay if we talk a little bit bit about your postpartum depression? Is that okay? Talk? Yeah. Yeah, I can definitely relate, I had had it bad with the first one, but super bad with the second one. So. So did you did you find at that point that you are either ramped up or sort of went the other way and decreased? How did that sort of impact? Ya? know, I've always been pretty consistent with the practice, I think, I honestly don't even remember. I mean, that was such a dark time, but I probably leaned into it more at that, at that time, I wasn't doing the paper quotes, I was still doing a lot of drawing and a lot of hand printed printmaking. I do remember because I had kind of tried everything for the postpartum depression, you know, it's like, everything that you were supposed to do, I just, I feel like I was in a hole. And I was like, trying to climb out of it. And, I mean, I did the journaling, and I did the exercise, and I get I got a therapist, and I, you know, I did the art and I did the walking like, I just, I tried everything and, and for me, I just kind of had to wait it out. You know, it's like, I did everything so long, and so consistently, and then one day, the fog just sort of cleared. But it wasn't like a switch, it just was like, gradually, eventually, everything sort of worked. And I had a therapist at the time. And I use this a lot. So my work is so much about color, you know, it's so much about color, and emotion and color really brings out, you know, feelings. And so she would say to me sometimes she said, we'll just sit there, you know, because we would talk about my art. And she would say what color are you? You know, and I would have to think about well, what color do I feel like? Am I read on my, you know, what color do I want to be? And so I started meditating a lot at that time, too. That was one of the strategies. And so then when the fires hit, and we came back, and everything switched to the paper quilts, I used a lot of the quilting as meditations, you know. And so a lot of those blues and most common greens, that was kind of what I hit first, because it's like, I just needed the space to sort of watch my community heal, to see what was gonna happen, you know, was such a shock. So I, I really did make a lot of art, but not necessarily that much different. I've just been this massive producer, I used to try and recycle everything because I used to make a lot of really ugly, like a really hideous work. I mean, I didn't like it, but it was like I was trying to get to something. And so I'm finally at the place where I'm making what I want to make. But I mean, it was like, it was like 12 years of just junk. And I would put it in the recycling bin and I would like tear it off and throw on the trash. Like that was nice when I transitioned to non toxic because I feel like I could recycle more stuff. But, you know, it was a real push there. And I just kind of had to wait it out. Yeah. Good on you. You obviously had a lot of support that time. Yeah. Husband helping out a lot. Yeah, I'm an only child. And my parents were, you know, in really close with them. When we moved from California to Arizona, we actually said that I'm like, Are you coming? Because you know, we kind of need you to come like are you going to come in. So now and they came. They're now neighbors. So they knew Yeah, it's just amazing. And so they knew what was going on. And I had some really close friends that knew what was going on. And then my husband, I kind of hit the jackpot. And he's the Marriage and Family Therapist. So he like kind of had this language, you know, there's a sort of a therapist language that he has never he can help me identify things or talk to things and, and you know, therapy is actually really hard. I mean, therapy is really charged to especially if you're going through something like postpartum depression. And it's funny, but like, I basically found the therapist that I needed to help me through that time. And it was so hard that she was just an amazing person. But I think sometimes people need therapy and they try a therapist, and then it's not the therapist, they should do it. So then they think therapy doesn't work. Yes, I'm grateful that I had a husband who could be like, well, you need support. And so why don't you find a therapist, but then if you don't like that person, keep looking. And so even that is a simple idea. I have no I had never heard of that. I would have never known that. You know and so, so I kind of had everything going for me as far as like the support network, which I'm super grateful for. Yeah, it's hard. Like transitioning from motherhood and having postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety. It's hard. Yep, absolutely. Oh, yeah. Talking about that transition, like, did your identity or how you saw yourself did that sort of go through some some adjustment, then as well, I think mine was more of an adjustment that I will not be able to plan myself into a relaxed life. It's like I'm such a planner, in life in general, and I am one of the most efficient people. And so it's sort of like, well take that really nice attractive schedule to do you write that up, you throw it up in the air, and you see what lands a chair, and then that's what you're going to do that. So I think just that idea of being flexible, and now I've, I would say I'm very comfortable with it. I also think that now that my kids are a little bit older, and now that, you know, we do so much creative stuff that actually really helps a lot. There was so much diaper changing and breastfeeding and like, oh my gosh, what am I supposed to do with that? Oh, my gosh, what do I do with the crying or that this or that getting up, or those sort of walking zombie exhaustion in those early years. And my kids are so close that it was like, we had an under two for three straight years. I mean, they're 13 months apart. And so just the sleep deprivation, it was like a free for all, you know, it was just like, What day is it? Yeah. So I've really acclimated. And I've really, they're really good sleepers. Now, I kind of have one night owl and one early bird, which is okay. Because there's like a solid time in there to sleep. So I think just my idea of getting stuff done how to transition. But as far as the creative part, or, you know, I kind of never lost that part of the identity that just sort of carried through with me, yeah. One of the topics I really like talking about is mum guilt. And I'm going to I'm guessing that it's sort of, from who other people have talked to you from America, that it's something that's quite universal? Is that something you've ever experienced? Or sort of? What's your opinion on that? I love this question. And the reason I love it is because of course I listen to your podcast, and there's a couple artists and creatives that you've had on that say they don't have it. And then Mike, Ooh, what's that, like? Triumph on that idea. And I think no, can't even can't even put it on. It's like a try. And I just, I feel like I could sprinkle mom guilt across the world. And that's leftover like. So then after, after I hear all these other people say that they don't have it. I'm like, Okay, well, what is mom guilt to me? You know, because then it's like, kind of this really interesting question of like, well, what is that mean? And? And then when do I have it, and I never have it with the creative stuff. I think it comes back to you know, when I talked about sort of the core identity of being a creative and like, this is a lifestyle, instead of a choice. Yeah. And so I think where I have had the most trouble with mom guilt is, I feel like I always want to look at each individual kid, and try and make the best choice for that kid, you know, and in the pandemic, I feel like there were no good choices. You know, it's like we wanted to pod we moved here, one to get away from the bears, but to also to be with my grandparents and family. And, you know, we chose to pod with them during the podcast. Until then that meant online school. And we didn't want to do zoom school because we didn't think that would work for our kids. So then we didn't you know, so it's like you, you pick, you keep picking the best choice of all these choices you just don't want and so then we ended up homeschooling my six year old son in kindergarten, you know, it's like, it just gets to this point where you're like, Well, how did we get here? And it's sort of, I think that's where my mom guilt goes up, like, Okay, I want us to eat healthy, but I, I don't want to argue about this cookie or you know, it's like just those little things that then by the end of the day, you're tired. And so I'm always trying to tell myself well, that's okay. Because you're gonna refresh at night like get back, good sleep if you can, and then just start over and start fresh. So the module is more about just trying to look at every like, look at every like I have, like 10 look at each one of my kids. And just try and do the best by them. Yeah, if I had more or a dog, heaven forbid, like, I'm, I'm working on it to do. Yeah, I actually thought when I, when we talked, when I was leading up to ask the question, I thought to myself, I don't think you're gonna have any guilt related to your artwork, just because it's part of your life, your children are included in it. You're not doing your art at the detriment of anybody else. So I knew that was coming. Yeah. So it's so funny, you knew that because I had to process it. I was like, What would my answer be to this? Because in my mind, I'm like I've done so long ago. But then when I started noticing what it was, it was really those small individual things, you know, that just add up, and then you feel this collective weight? Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting, you say about, you know, resetting the next day. But this is, this is the same sort of topic that came up with another lady that I interviewed just the other day, and was saying the same thing. It's like, you when the kids were little, you always knew the sun would rise. And you could start again, and see what happens if you just wipe the slate clean and start again, the next day, and then you felt like you were doing that every day. You know, there's always hope, because you can have that time to reset and then off, you go again. Or there's a locked door to our chocolate, like whatever it takes. I'm here and yet. So have you got some projects that you're working on at the moment that anything in particular that you want to share with us about that up? Yeah, I have a magazine article that I'm working on. So I'm working on a feature article for women's artists magazine, which I'm super excited about. I just got invited last week to a local show, which I'm super excited about in Chandler, Arizona. And then last year, in the last quarter, I just got invited to practical art, which is this absolutely amazing and really neat community of artists. And it's like a gallery and a little art shop in Phoenix, Arizona, and they just love them. It's about 100 local artists. And so now I'm one of their artisans that's featured at their shop, and they're open, which is nice. And so they have like gallery exhibits all the time and sort of like wearable, livable art. So yeah. Oh, that's psycho. So you're very active in your, like, your local community with your art, getting it out there. And, yeah, I'm really trying to be you know, it was odd moving in a pandemic, and then trying to build an in person community. So we kind of, but now I feel like you know, we're almost two years and I am back physically in work at my library and job, which is just glorious. It's so nice to work with people in person. I've just been trying to make as many connections as I can in Arizona and in Phoenix, I want to start going to shows and, you know, just really trying to connect with this art community, it makes such a difference. As an artist, being a member of a community. It's so inspiring studio time can be really lonely, even if you've got kids in there. And you know, it's like, even if you have a ton of ideas, it's just so nice to see other people's work and their creative energy and support them too. So I'm looking forward to doing that more. Yes, thanks. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, someone else I spoke to talk to about how their art changes when they do when they're not in isolation, like when you're around other people. And even if you're not doing the same style of art, you can sort of feed off each other and someone might make a comment about your piece. And it's like, you can take it in another direction that you never thought of, you know, having a fresh pair of eyes look at it or someone that has no understanding of your what you do that, you know, it's can be really good thing. So 100% agree and a lot of my pushes have been based on just sort of one side comment or one observation and right now my stuff, I don't know where it's going, but it used to be behind the frame. And now it's out from behind the frame. And it's just sort of, you know, the open so you can see all the texture and nothing is protecting it. It's just hanging on the wall and then it sort of getting into these more sculptural pieces for the while and stitched in wood and so we'll see where it goes. We're still in experimental phase, but that was just kind of Based on one person's comment of how nice it was to see the texture, and sort of have more visual access to it, so it's always so interesting what creative juices are flowing from other people's comments and their minds. And yeah, absolutely, you put that very well. I couldn't find the words what I was trying to say. It's still early IV. It's not really bad. I'm, is it over there? Well, it's nearly 10 o'clock. But you know, it's early, let's do it. That's early. That first time that you saw that circle, and then you went into down that path? Is there anything you sort of find an imagery of the circle? Do you find yourself like, is there any deeper meaning in that, that circle for you? There initially was, you know, when I started doing the circles, when I started cutting the circles, it was only circles. I mean, it was only circles. And I was, in my mind, because I'm such a, I'm such a planner to the court was like, I'm going to cut circles for the rest of my life. And I will be a circle cutter. Like, I just, I go really deep in this stuff. Like, this is the plan. Yeah. And so, and I remember walking, I walk a lot with my dad. And I remember one day, he's like, Have you ever considered like, a square? And I stopped, and I looked at him, and I was like, why would I do that? Like, I cut circles. We have very funny conversations. And we're, he's a very enjoyable, and it's funny, because now I cut every shape, you know, it's like, I don't want to give him credit for that. But, you know, it's sort of like there was, there was something that was so meaningful about it never ending, you know, there was something that was very peaceful. And with all the meditation, when I first started doing all the circles and all the die, I had a totally silent studio. So I wouldn't listen to music, you know, it's like, I just used it as a full meditation. And so it's like, you could also because I was hand cutting these, and now the circles are really clean, you know, they're very circular. But when I started, I was making really bad circles, ovals. These, like lobby egg things, you know, it's like, it takes you a while to kind of clean up your, your free hand cutting. And so there was something that was so also freeing, where you could just keep editing, it's like, you just keep cutting that circle around and around and around until it looks like something that it should look like. And so I think that was really peaceful. And so it was just more sort of this personal process of meditation, and kind of getting, you know, back into the studio and back into making what I wanted to make. But there's not like a final symbol of it just being a circle. I mean, I know, there's a lot of, you know, like eternity symbols and like the circle of life and things like that, but not from a conceptual standpoint. And now I'm doing just all different shapes and trying out different dye techniques, and just sort of really experimenting with what imagery comes out. And the colors and the my palette is never consistent. I mean, it's like, it'll be hot pink and black, or you know, and I'm starting to incorporate a lot more of my printmaking. That's kind of the direction that I'm going and then doing a lot of hand printing now and then drawing the circles and then printing on top, and then taping and then stitching. And so just the processes the process, I guess that's lovely. It's quite freeing, isn't it just to be able to say, I'm going to do it this way? Or I'm going to do it that way. And that's probably probably you mean, you don't want to give the guy credit for it. But it's probably good that he said that, because it sort of gives you permission to say, well, this isn't what I'm going to do forever. I can fiddle around and and try different things and different techniques. So yeah, thanks. Thank you, Dan. So when it comes to retail, you've got all these these shapes, they're dyed, and they're ready to go. What's your sort of thinking or your process when it comes to laying them out deciding where they're going to, to lie on the paper. So there's a lot of decision, there's probably like 10 or 12 important decision points, but one of the most important is how big the final piece is going to be. Because because I don't use formulas. All the dyes are really specific. So it's like I'll die 400 things. And then okay, you have 400 things, so I didn't so I'm kind of thinking about how large I want that final piece to be before I ever even do it and then usually I'll make templates. You know, I'll cut out paper. I do a lot of drawing in my sketchbook that never makes it to Instagram because it's nothing that anybody wants to look at my guiding path and so I I kind of know all the shapes that are going to be and I Use color a lot just to think about the world. I, you know, I work in education. And sometimes education gets a little contentious people get really in, you know, rightly so about certain issues. And I've been in some very contentious meetings before and environments that are really stressful. And to try and sort of step back from some of that stress, I usually go to color. And so sometimes I'll just ask these not almost nonsensical questions of like, if that person was like, a blob of color, what would it be right now, you know, and so it's like, I'm constantly kind of drawing out these visuals or asking these questions are like relating things into shapes. And so some of that comes out into the work. Some of it is just that I'll be on a walk, and I'll see a visual or I'll see a gradation with, you know, a cactus, and then its variation with what's on the ground. And I'll take a picture of that. And then those are the two colors that end up in the work or the piece, and then part of that line, or that shape, or that feeling, then is the shape that shows up in the piece. So a lot of it is a reflection of what I'm seeing, and what photos that I'm taking or how I'm cropping things. Basically, I try and pull inspiration from everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, I will say to that, even though I'm super intentional, there's always an element of surprise, because when you dye stuff, you're putting it in the full water bath. So there's always two sides. It's like, I might, you know, do a pink and around, but then I pulled the water back, I pulled it out really quickly for half of the batch, and I left it in overnight for the other half the batch. Even though the overall shape might have been a circle, what I end up with is like a really beautiful, soft brown and pink combo, and then like an almost black and pink combo. And so then I might decide when I'm laying it out, but then it's going to be striped. Yeah, it's sort of like I'm making a decision every single time even though I have the templates, and I have the overall colors. And those are fixed. Yeah, then I'm still doing a ton of experimentation. And then I actually take the back of it, flip it over, and then I obviously am stitching the top. Yeah. Ben from the top. So what sort of material do you use to stitch with? Like, whoa, you know, I have a brand. Let me look, I think it's the Lisbeth I do used a lot of different threads. And I had a quite a bit of difficulty over the pandemic, finding some of the papers and threads that I was using, like with production delays and stuff. So I ended up switching to Lisbeth thread, which I pretty much only use now it's, this will sound funny, but it's actually super important. They, they treat it in a way I think it's something called gasps injure, it's some process that they do that makes the thread rounder. So when I'm stitching with it, you know how sometimes of embroidery thread when you stitch it on paper or wood or something and you stretch it out. It's sort of like it lays flat. I know that that's a very detailed observation. But I need it to be round, because the mark making is important. I choose the colors of the thread really carefully. If I don't have a color of thread, then I die. I individually hand die the thread. And so I want that crisp color. And it just needs to pop like that, because it's sort of like I'm drawing on the paper boats, but it happens to be with thread. And so that I'm I now just exclusively use that thread. Yeah, so you want it to sort of have that three dimension where it actually sits up a bit. It's not, it doesn't fade into the work, it's sort of up on top of it. So adds that texture as well. I just hope that people keep going, I think, you know, I think I struggled for so many years making such bad work for so long. Because I could have given up like at so many points. And I'm grateful that I did it because I I honestly feel like it took me 13 or 14 years to figure out the type of work that I wanted to make. And so sometimes I just I think people really have to be in it for the long haul and just sort of the eye on the prize is that you'll find your path whenever it decides to show up. And I'm so grateful that I kind of had the practice you know, the practice of just showing up to the studio and making really bad work for many many years. So that I could kind of come into this nice space you know, now like, not the physical space but just the emotional space with my kids. You know, now we can share it and now it's kind of this enjoyable thing. That and I just I'm so enjoying your podcast. So listen to other mothers like honestly It just being a mother being a creative is so lonely sometimes. And so hearing podcasts of other women creatives, it's just awesome. You're just you're doing such a nice job. I just love it. Thank you. I appreciate that. And that's a sentiment that a lot of women have said that it's like, it's so nice to hear that other people are going through the same thing. Because it like even a lady that I spoke to the other night both in Belfast, not Belfast, Dublin, in Ireland. And she said, it's lovely to hear that everyone around the world is going through it too. You know, it's just this universal thing that we're all struggling with. And yeah, it's that support in knowing that we're not alone is just so important. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, that's a beautiful night to finish our phone. Thank you so much, sir. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Lyss Morton US event florist, podcaster + entrepreneur S2 Ep72 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Lyss Morton is an event florist and entrepreneur from New Jersey USA and a mum of 2. 2 years ago Lyss and her husband began a floral design business, doing weddings and events, and floral preservation. Lyss credits her love for flowers to her grandmother. Lyss describes herself as multi passionate, and a serial entrepreneur. She produces 2 podcasts, The Making Mommy Moves podcast and The Power Couple podcast, has a digital production company called Mama Media and another florist related business. Lyss is also writing her first book and has plans for more. Today we chat about boundary setting, people pleasing, our old favourite mum guilt and cultural role modelling. **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and birth trauma** Connect with Lyss - website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. My guest this week is Liz Morton. Liz is an event florist and entrepreneur from New Jersey in the USA and a mom of two. Two years ago Listen, her husband began a floral design business doing weddings and events and floral preservation. Liz credits her love of flowers to her grandmother. She describes herself as multi passionate and a serial entrepreneur. This produces two podcasts, the making mommy moves podcast, and the power couple podcast with her husband. She has a digital production company called mama media, and another floral related business. Lisa is also writing her first book and has plans for more. Today we chat about boundary setting people pleasing our perennial favorite mom guilt, and cultural role modeling. This episode contains discussions around postnatal depression, and birth trauma. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a list of great international resources, which is listed on the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you'll hear today is used with permission from LM J, which is my new age and ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoy today's chat. Welcome to the podcast. Listen, that's really lovely to have you and to meet you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I appreciate you having me on your show. Oh, no worries at all. Now, we're about to you based. I'm in New Jersey, over across the big pond. Yeah. Yeah. Whereabouts is that in America? We're on the east coast. So right around your Pennsylvania. tri state area. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, I can visualize where that is. It's good. Yeah. And you're coming into what you call it fall over there. Do we call it autumn here? Yeah, it hit us in the face a couple of weeks ago. We have a garden that we grow in all the time. And we're like right on the cusp of everything dying. Yeah, that changes seasons. Always fun. Where where are the other side? We're coming into summer like we're in spring and everything starting to grow like crazy. And all the weeds are coming up because it's raining and feet of warmth. And yeah, I feel like I'm just forever picking waves out of a garden now. A good time of year though. Ah, do you see love say Oh, my roses have come out now. So it's it's good. Like, like this time of year? You do lots of different things, don't you but your use? Did you say am I right in saying you started out as a florist? Is that right? Yeah. Um, well, I'll give you a little bit of a backstory. I wasn't always a florist. I started as a medical biller in a chiropractic office for about 10 years of my life. And I was like, I hate this. So I started working with flowers. And I became an event florist and now we serve events all throughout New Jersey and the surrounding area, bringing weddings to life primarily for couples. And how long have you been doing that for about two years? Yes. So no, I'm, but we went. We grew really quickly in that time. Yeah. So do you do you source your flowers or do you grow a lot yourself? Or do both? Yeah, we started primarily growing our own flowers. And then it was time management wise. We couldn't with everything that we were doing for the events and planning and meeting send everything, we didn't have the time to commit to growing everything ourselves. So we like to say that we work some of our garden and grown blooms into their designs. But we actually are sourcing and then like in her bridal bouquet will incorporate some of our envelopes. Awesome. That'd be really fun. One of my favorites. My wedding was was picking out my flowers. I really enjoyed that part of it. And I reckon I spent, like, percentage wise, I spent a pretty high percent on my flowers because like, I just love them. I just wanted them to be like, really big. Yes. Oh, so what's, what are the flowers at the moment over there that a lot? Or do you buy them like from people that grow them all year round, like the stuff that's particularly in season at the moment. Right now we're finishing out the season locally, there are a couple of growers that have some greenhouses that were able to get stuff. But right now, like we're getting the end of the dahlia is for santha mums. And then like anything that is grown in the greenhouse is amazing. But we primarily sourced from other wholesalers that import flowers from, you know, the Ecuador and South America and other places like that some California stuff. So primarily, we're integrating the local flowers in with the overseas stuff. Yeah, cool. Oh, that's awesome. What made you go into flowers, we've been we've always been a gardener or just thought it would be fun to do for if I give a lot of the credit to my grandma, because she had the most amazing garden and she still does, it's, it takes up her entire backyard. And it's like on a nice beautiful creek. So it just looks like it's meant to be there. So I I blame her for my flower bug that I have. Um, but I really like I can't say that like, they were my go to thing. I loved getting flowers. And then when I wanted to create my own business, I was like, what brings me joy. And I love flowers. There was like, let's start that. And I just took every workshop and every course that I could find on the topic and dug in. Yeah. Well, that's great. Good news. And you say wait, I'm guessing that's your your husband and you work together? Yes. Yeah, we're we're good partnership. Okay, ego right together, you don't have to renew legally disagree with anything awesome. You also do podcasting, and lots of other different things. So can you share with us? What else do you do that keeps you busy? Yeah, I'm thinking to say that I'm multi passionate, I've got a lot of different things that I have going on. So I'm in the process of writing my first book, I've got a podcast, it's called the making mommy moves show. I've got our floral design business where we do events. And then we also preserve flowers for our couples and anywhere in the US or that they're able to ship them. We had one come from Mexico, where we encase their flowers and resin or press designs. We've got another business where it's very, very niche specific, we help other event floors, clean up their events. At the end of the wedding, we help them collect all the rental items and any other decor that they have. And then something more recently that I started was it's called mama media. It's a digital like production company where we do like podcast editing and YouTube Editing and stuff like that. Hmm. There's a lot of different things going on. And yeah, multi passionate, that's a great way of describing it. So you just really like, like, like doing things you like being busy and being creative. Like, that's, that's what drives you. Yes, very much. Yeah. Yeah. People think it's a little crazy. But you know, when you have a knack for something, and you just I'm, I say that I'm a quickstart personality. So it's like I get an idea. And I have to jump on it. My husband and I were actually just talking about that this morning, because it's actually a little overwhelming at times, trying to manage it all, especially being a mom and everything else that we have going on his family. So we're trying to be more intentional about the things that we take on and limit the project so that we're able to actually follow through on them too. Huh, yeah, cuz that overwhelm is a big thing, isn't it? And then you get all the different things thrown at you family wise and children wise things are always jumping up and surprising. It's out of the blue. Exactly. Tell me more about your book, what is the Book about? So I'm reading my book about different business processes as a wedding florist. I'm working with Jake Calper. Like he's doing a fun, like challenge. So every day for 90 days, we're working on a book together. And it's just an hour a day that I'm dedicating to the process. And it's been really enlightening, because he just wants you to just do it and get it done. So I'm following his framework in order to do it. Because you know, as moms and business owners, we have very little time, or at least it feels that way. So I'm just trying to break it down into smaller pieces. And it's nonfiction obviously. And I'm just trying to get the parts one done and out and make it mean something and also be helpful to other business owners and mompreneurs. And then I'm gonna move on to my next one. Yeah. So if you got, you've got your idea for you to explore, I've already got a couple of them. And it was like difficult for me to choose one. So this one is about business ownership. And then I have one that I want to like write about with my mom and like our relationship together. I've got a couple different ideas like it works. Well, that's great. So you say you, you can eat just an hour a day? Do you ever find that you just cannot get the hour in? Or is that something that you make sure you definitely do every day no matter what. I give myself some grace. So especially as a wedding florist, like we're just getting out of our peak wedding season, there were some weeks that we had four weddings in the weekend that we're trying to get out the door and servants. Obviously, they're our priority next to my kids. So it's like we're trying to make sure that they're taken care of that our contracts are fulfilled. And that's taken care of. So I am giving myself some grace if for some reason I am too busy dividend. What about your podcast? Tell us a little bit more about that. Yes, so it's called the making mommy move show. And it's primarily a come along with me, because we don't have it all figured out. But we want to be able to document the journey as we create our we have a lot of big goals that we're working towards. So one of them is financial freedom. Another is like fitness and health and just general wellness and happiness. So we want to be able to be an inspiration for other moms to live the life they want to live. Because I know too many of the ones that I grew up around, just sacrifice their life, to work the nine to five and for their kids. And it's like you can have it too. Like you can have your cake and eat it too in the sense that you can live the life that you want. So we created it as a come along with me. I share different stories and strategies and tips and just milestones in our life as we're learning different things through business ownership. But as a mom, I just want it to be really inspiring and helpful. And all the things. Yes. How long have you been doing that for now works? So not a long time. Yeah. And it's great. It all really heavy. I started off with a three time a week podcast schedule, and we're just now dropping down to once a week because it's a lot of demand. Yeah, as you know. Yes. Do you and you record like you visually record you a lot of things as well for Instagram I've seen. So that's another sort of element to it as well. Yeah, we set up the camera and the microphone, and I put it on YouTube, the different podcast platforms and then we use it for Instagram and Tiktok and things like that. I'm trying to make sure that it's more curated for the different platforms. I just today I recorded a whole bunch of videos for YouTube in particular so that it's because you know every platform is specific to their own. I want to say like audience and the way that that people interpret the information. So yeah, I'm trying to be more intentional about that too. Yeah, cuz that's it, isn't it? It's like the way people consume things on different platforms. You is very different. I actually thought it was quite funny. A comedian made a made a reel about people coming in for like a it was like an audition. And they were saying they were presenting the way they talk and they're like, right you go to YouTube and the next one coming up are your for Tik Tok. Like, it was quite funny the way it happened, but they are very different, aren't they? Yeah, like, I've been watching a lot of different content creators obviously. And like seeing the way that they put things out into the world. And it's like, third priority. So some people prioritize YouTube and some people prioritize their blogs or Tik Tok or Instagram. And I'm feeling like YouTube is actually like a good place for me. So it's like helping me to be more intentional about where I put my time and like my focus. So it's like, YouTube is growing the quickest. So it's like, oh, I need to put more of my effort there. As opposed to Instagram that's really slow. So it's like really interesting to think about that too, yeah. So you've mentioned your kids a couple of times being a mom, can you share a little bit about your children? Yeah, I've got two little girls. My oldest is two and a half. And my youngest is going to be one next week or the week after the seventh. So it's been fine with them. I had my second when I just started my business, we had a wedding do a contract. It was supposed to be two days after my due date. And I ended up like wheeling the heck out of that girl coming sooner to keep 13 days early. And tell because it's like you booked a wedding two days after your due date. And it's like, I had faith that God was gonna let me fulfill the event. He wouldn't let me book it if I couldn't do it. Oh, did say you had a 13 days early. So that means you were up and about doing this waiting? Oh, my gosh, how did that go? It worked perfectly. It was fairly small. So I had like backup plans in place, like just in case I was in the hospital or something. But it worked out? Well. I'm glad that it wasn't any bigger than it was because you know, postpartum is difficult. And fulfilling. And event after that was not not exactly fun. But it wasn't bad either. Working up to that point was difficult. I worked until 39 weeks like doing weddings and freelancing with other florists and there was one venue in particular that I was going into and big ol belly in front of me. And the chairs were like this close together. And I can't squeeze through them. It was respond. Did so it was always Daisy having fun. Doing it. Yeah. Trying to carry stuff and they don't want you to carry anything because you're nine months pregnant. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Ah, hey, good. But obviously, you've got your support. If your husband in the business site, you're able to sort of be be flexible with things like that. He's such a tremendous help but everything. Lately I've been trying to teach him designing so he's able to actually jump in if I need him helping processing all over flowers to get them prepped to design. helping deliver. Yeah, they help in every way. And like not just that but also like with the kids being able to watch them when I have to go out or having some other family or friends or babysitters helped. Hmm, yeah, that's definitely the supports a massive thing, isn't it? Having people around you? Yeah, makes it really tricky. If you don't have that doesn't that I've spoken to quite a few people on the show that are just like away from their family for whatever reason, and you sort of got to create create your family then I suppose for one of a better word to find the people. Yeah. So yeah, I'm really fortunate. I still live in the town that I was born in and my sister lives around the corner. My mum lives up the road and it's like, I've got him here. If I need him. It's really, really lucky. You need it, you really can't do it without the support system. That's for sure. In terms of then sort of the juggling that goes on, how do you sort of manage? Like your children are still quite young? How do you sort of? Is it a lot of help from others to make it happen? Or how do you sort of juggle everything? Question. So during the week, they're in daycare, I can't live without daycare, it's like, every day, like, Thank goodness for it. And then a lot of late nights. So we try to prioritize and maximize or our family time that we do have. So from five to eight, we have our family time we do dinner, we do baps some quality, like book times, stuff like that, and then we put them down for bed. And then it's usually like eight to 11 is crunch time for whatever we need to make happen. So whether that's designing for an event, or working on a computer, or meetings, stuff like that. Yeah, cuz that's thing you've actually got to meet with your clients, I suppose. Do you do a lot of that? It does that work in the day or you do meet people have an evening as well. Usually, it's in the evening, because most of the people work that we're working with. So they don't typically get out of work or have the time to that they're both home until seven, you know, somewhere in there. So I'll you do accommodate the late night meetings. I prefer when they happen during the day and the girls are at school. But yeah, I'll make it happen for them. Yeah. Oh, that's good. So I want to go back to when when you first had had your first daughter, did you sort of find did you have sort of an identity shift of how you saw yourself, and how that sort of changed when you became a mom, I had a really bad postpartum depression with my first. And I actually want to call it like a disassociation, because I was not attached to her. Going through my first, like, postpartum experience, I had a really traumatic delivery with her. And after I got really fit, like in the gym, like I prioritize that, and I really went through a time that I wasn't connected to her. So I have a different experience with her than I do with my second one. So it's like hard to say like in that sense, but throughout, I want to say like the first six months of our life together, I became more attached to her. And obviously, we have a really close relationship now. But as a mom, it was interesting, because I felt unattached, like, I still felt like myself. So I can't really say I felt like I had gone through this metamorphosis of like, shifts and personality change. But with my second and getting pregnant with my second, I really felt it. Hmm. So the way that you sort of, I guess, I had postnatal depression with both my kids. So I can definitely relate to what you're saying. And I guess that's the thing, it does make it hard to sort of talk about that identity. Because you feel so different anyway, like, because you're experiencing these mental health issues. And I guess, maybe going to your second daughter, how did you sort of when you had your second daughter, did you experience the same sort of postnatal depression or was everything different that time it was really different the second time, and I kind of associated more with starting my business like I felt the build. So it was a different kind of feeling like with my first I was still working as a full time mom and working full time. So I didn't feel like I had the same flexibility I didn't work my second I was able to snuggle up with her. And I was working on my computer and breastfeeding her at the same time. So I was still able to have like that skin to skin contact and everything up until she went to daycare when she was like five months old. Whereas with my first like immediately from the get go, she was in daycare with my mom with anybody that could watch her I was working full time. So I guess I didn't have the same kind of connecting experience with her. And also that affected our relationship and the way that my mental health was and everything else. Yeah, it's interesting, like, oh, yeah, no, thank you for sharing that because it's interesting. I've spoken to some mums who had postnatal depression first or second, or both, or like it's just there doesn't seem to be any consistency to it. Like when I had mine quite bad with my fist. So then the doctors were like, sort of put like, a red flag to me, but they had on all my files, you know, watch out for this one sort of thing, you know, which was good because when it did happen, you know, the ball moves really quickly and all the care that I needed came really quickly. But then yeah, I've spoken to some people who had it with their first didn't have on their second or didn't have with their first head it was like they doesn't seem to be any, you know, rhyme or reason like it. And I sort of had talked to my I talked myself into the fact like, there's seven years between my kids. And I thought, you know, I'm seven years older, I'm more mature, I've worked in childcare. Now I know, physically how to look after a child. And I kept thinking, I'm gonna be fine. This isn't gonna happen, you know, but then actually happened worse the second time and the first time. So it's like, so bizarre. It really is. And it's like, I went through so many mental changes, just evolving as a person and a business owner and everything that I associated with that, but maybe it could just be a different experience, just hormonal wise, like you're saying, like seven years older, and it's hard to say exactly why it happens the way that it does. Oh, my gosh, it is It is bizarre. Like it's just odd. And I wish it didn't happen to any of us. But it's just one of those weird things. And I feel like I've never quite been the same sense. I don't know. Now that I'm getting older, my hormones are changing more. I don't know. I mean, I still feel like me, but I just feel like I haven't quite gotten back to how it was before. I don't know. It's really weird, but never go back, either. Like, you've got so many new experiences now, like having been through childbirth twice, and the postpartum experience twice and everything in between. You'll never go back. Which I guess is a good thing. Yeah. It's a strange thing isn't that happens to us? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was named. One of the big topics I like to talk about with my moms is this concept of mom guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because I have spoken to moms who didn't even know what it was and had to google it. And I reckon that's awesome. That's how we should all be. But unfortunately, most of us, what's your sort of take on that whole topic? Oh, I feel guilty about everything that I do. I'm guilty. If I'm not being productive, I'm guilty. If I'm not spending enough time with them. I'm guilty. If I am not sleeping enough, I'm guilty. If I'm not eating right, I'm guilty of I'm prioritizing the wrong things. I'm just a big ball of guilt in every way, shape and form. So I'm curious to hear like what you have to say about it, and how you try to overcome it. Like with me, I just remind myself of what I'm working toward, and get myself grace as best as I can. Hmm. Yeah, I think that acceptance is a really big thing. And that's what I'm finding. It's interesting, the people that I've spoken to one in particular comes to mind that that did not even know what it was, which was brilliant. I think it was something to do with, she was basically in this little bubble, where she hadn't been around a lot of people with children, and wasn't sort of all over social media, looking at all things to do with children. And I think a lot of it comes what will in certainly in my experience of people I've spoken to, I'm not saying this is right for everybody, but the expectations that we feel from the outside world to behave a certain way or to do a certain thing or to not do a certain thing. And then that pressure that comes on us, is what sort of manifests neck yoke, because I don't know, there's just so many outside, outside forces with all this conflicting information, like I actually saw a really funny reel the other day about was like a new mom. And she was saying, I can't even think what they were. But it was things like don't hold your baby too much. But make sure you have a lot of skin to skin contact. But don't feed them too much. But make sure that they get enough food, like it was just this constant back and forth and the mums like what am I supposed to do? And I think you're right, that that sort of giving yourself grace and acceptance and in the moment feeling like I'm doing all that I can right now. And then try not to beat yourself up about later, which is so easier said than done, but it's just a horrible thing. And I wish it didn't exist. I wish no one had to go through it, too. I think you're right about the Instagram and like the social media aspect of it too. Because we have this new way to compare ourselves to like what other people look like they're doing as opposed to what we should be doing or comparing what they're what they have done. going on with their kids, because we don't know, we only see the highlight reel on Instagram. So it's like somebody else might look like they're in the gym all the time and spending time with their kids and having the best of everything. They probably have a nanny or somebody living in the house that's able to take care of the kids. Like you're not seeing it all. Yeah, that's so the best. You have to just give yourself grace, knowing what you're living through and your situation and the way that you're dealing with things when it's like you can do that season. We can just do that and not, and the judgment that I was talking to a mom the other day, about that mums and women were really, only if we're really good at what we're really bad at. I can't work out the way to say it, but we judge each other a lot. Like we're like the number one worst judges of each other. We need to know if we could just stop there. Yeah. But I think a lot of that also might come from guilt too, is that, you know, if you see someone doing something and you think, Oh, bloody hell, and then you think, wow, I should be doing that. You know, it's all that that internalized stuff. Again, you are you're judging them because you're not doing it or whatever it is. I'm really bad at that. I'll see something that looks like I should be doing it. And I get bad that they're doing and I'm not, or feeling like I should be further along in my journey. And it's like I just started so I can't get mad at it. Yeah, yeah. But I think you're right about this, this Instagram and the socials. It's like, people will only show you what they want you to say they're not going to show you all the bad stuff that's happened that day, or the how hard it was to get your kid to eat breakfast and then get them in the car to go wherever it like. Yes. But I feel like they're having. Yeah, yeah. It's, but yeah, I feel like people are getting better at sharing things. And I'm trying to change the people that I follow. So that the people that resonate with me more, not the people that I feel challenged by I suppose, if that makes sense. Yeah, surrounding yourself with positive, the positive stuff. I've been getting better at that, too. I've been restricting a lot of accounts that so I'm not like unfriending them or unfollowing them, but I'm not seeing their stuff purposefully. Cuz it either makes me mad or makes me feel guilty or something negative that I shouldn't be feeling. And it's just preventing me from working the way that I should be. Hmm, that's a really good point. And actually, that that point has come up, I reckon in the last two or three podcast chats that I've had that about just, you know, surrounding yourself with the people that make you feel good. Like, yeah, like, like, you know, in real life we do. So why not do it? You know, in a socialist, yeah, it's funny, because I find that even, I have to restrict, like, some friends and family because like, I'll see them and like, hold myself to like a new level of criticism, or guilts. Or, however I'm interpreting it, and then like, I can't be looking at this all the time, just because it makes me feel like I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing, or it's bad or something. Yeah, those things that trigger Yeah, it's like, you know, remove them. And that's true, even if it is family, you know, or friends, it's, we're still allowed to sort of set the boundaries and say, you know, I don't need to consume this, because it's going to affect me in a certain way. I think that's really powerful. Because I feel like in the past, we sort of have felt like, because their family, we've got to accept just everything that they do to us their behaviors. I feel like people are starting to sort of go, oh, actually, that's not okay. Even though, you know, you're my sister, or you're my mom or whatever. That That doesn't work. For me. That's a pretty powerful thing, isn't it? Very, very powerful. And to have the emotional intelligence to say, You know what, this is a little toxic or a little triggering for me. So I'm just going to remove myself from the situation and go from there. Yeah, that's really good. I think. Yeah. I don't know. Certainly the people I'm following. It's like, you know, that that emotional intelligence that and feeling like you have permission to do things? Like I don't know, you've always sort of feel like, is it okay for me to say to such and such that I don't want to do that, you know, that. That people pleasing sort of got to say yes to everything. I feel like yeah, people that I follow. I do follow a lot of psychologists to actually that's where this is going rather, you know, you are allowed to say that you don't have to please everybody. Thank you say that with like, yes to everything because I'm really bad people pleaser, at least I'm getting better at it. And for the holidays all the time, everybody would want us over their house. So We'd be trying to go to four or five different houses in the course of Christmas. And it's like that's not enjoyable like to just go from house to house. Yeah. So it's like, either had them on different days, or like, Come to us, because now we have kids, and then she's difficult to go from, you know, breakfast to late breakfast to brunch, to lunch to dinner, an early dinner, late dinners next. Bedtime is somewhere in the middle. Yeah, that's the thing. And you like the age of your girl. So probably still napping is like, how do you even, you know, fit that in? Yeah, but that's the thing too, I think. Yeah, for years are a family like, I'm lucky because everyone's in the town. And we all just gather at one point. But yeah, I've heard lots of stories of people of these, because we've got lots of little towns all around our big town, like little sort of out in the countryside. And people would be going from here to there to their to their similar to your story. Now, just think, God, that wouldn't be a very nice day, you know, it wouldn't be a very enjoyable day. And they'd say things like, you know, the kids get their presents, but then they can't play with them, because they've got to rush off to the next place. And you think it sort of takes all of that? What it's supposed to be about it takes all of that away. And you're right, why can't do it on another day, like, you know, make it a boxing? Or do you have Boxing Day over there to call it that? You know, yeah, we have like the day after Christmas is like a relaxing day, you're supposed to we, most times there's a cricket match on. It's like this tradition, the Boxing Day test match. So everyone like, relaxes in front of the telly and watches the cricket and has a drink because it's summer here. So it's all very, you know, laid back. So that's thing why not doing on the next day, like, you know, why does that have to be this pressure just for this one? Day? Yeah, that's like the thing, like, both my husband and I, like both of our parents were divorced. So it's like, we were having like, four just with them. And then it was the extended family and, you know, siblings wanting to get together in the morning to open gifts and then do dinner later. It's like, we're seeing you already, like agree don't need to do it twice. You know? Yeah. So if anyone's listening to this, if this is triggering for you, this might really to say actually, no, I want to do it this way. Or, you know, have a chat here from this time to that time, and you're welcome to stop by. Yeah, that's a great way of saying it. Yeah. And it's not, it's not like you're saying, we don't want to see you like it's not a bad. You know, it's like just to shuffle things to make it work. And I mean, other people probably feeling the same way too, you know? So by starting the conversation, you might be taking the pressure off someone else to go Oh, thank God, I've been wanting to say this, you know? Yes, 100%. That's really cool. I love it that conversation with. Growing up as a kid, did you, I mean, a lot of the moms I speak to were of the same sort of age roughly. I have had a couple of grandmas on. And that's been really interesting, too. But the way that the way that we were parented has changed a lot. I feel like I mean, culturally in Australia, certainly. And I'm sort of guessing similarly, in the US. What sort of role modeling did you have for being a mum, and the way that you've decided to parent your children? Interesting? Um, I? Oh, tough question. My mom worked all the time. So I can't really say that she was like, super involved. Like when she was really like, when we were young, I guess she was a stay at home mom for a while. But when my parents and I were in a rough relationship, so she worked pretty much around the clock. And we were with my grandparents most of the time. So essentially, my grandmother raised me. I guess, as far as like parenting styles, I have a lot of the same kind of styles that they do. Some things have evolved. Like, we don't force them to eat everything on their plate, like I was forced to, because I'm like, she's a toddler and she's not hungry. She'll eat when she's hungry. So she snaps and that's the way that she eats and the pediatrician have told us the same thing like to just let her you know, she's gonna go through phases. My mom was a big fast food mom, like I don't do that. Stuff like that. Yeah, I feel like we're sort of listening to our children a bit more like, like that example of, you know, the parents saying you have to eat this. And it's like, I remember as a kid, just shoveling the ends of my tea into my mouth and just feeling like seek just so full of food. It's like, we've sort of got to the point where we Going well, actually, I think children are capable of deciding when they're full, you know, obviously you want them to try and, you know, eat more than one bead of toast or whatever, you know, you want them to, to try encourage them. But, you know, I think this that sort of, for me, at least, I don't know if it did, or it didn't, but might have been something to do with the relationship that I now have with food, that I've got to eat everything, you know, we don't know what Yes, what little seeds are being planted in little people's brains when we're doing these behaviors, and we're putting our, our judgment now behaviors onto them. 100% I'm on a similar note, like, trying to, I've learned that my mom wasn't exactly like a well rounded eater, she ate a lot of SP foods, a lot of the same things. So I'm finding like, as a mom, myself, that my kids eat everything that I eat. So if I'm showing them that I'm eating broccoli, and like home cooked meals, they're gonna want to eat them, too. So if I'm not giving them those options, they're not going to eat them. And they're not encouraged to because if I'm drinking soda, my daughter wants to drink soda. If I'm eating a nice polite with turkey bacon, she's gonna want to eat that too. So it's just a matter of introducing them to the right things and setting a good example. Hmm. And that's, that's really good point. Because that's thing if they don't see things they're not, they're not even, you know, gonna, they're not gonna choose one day go, Oh, I'm just gonna eat some broccoli just for no reason. You know, it's, it's got to be a part of. Yeah, exactly. And you were talking earlier about, like, you know, eating well, and fitness. Is that something that you're you guys are conscious of. So that's really great that you're sort of encouraging that right from, you know, the beginning of their lives. Yeah, really trying. With the business and everything. It's honestly taken a bit of a back burn. But we've been recommitting ourselves. And it's really important to show them that this is a priority for us if it is for them to. Absolutely, yeah, that's so that's so important. And I think like, exercise just being a part of life, like you can just go for a walk anytime. And that's, you know, that it's not some big deal that can I just, it's just a normal part of life, that it just is what you do, you know, maybe not every day, depending how your day is going. But it's just there all the time. That makes sense. Yeah, that you don't have to make it a special. Like, you don't have to get up and go to the gym at 530 Every morning, like you could squeeze it in with a bike ride or make it fun, and a family activity or different ways to go. Do you feel like it's important to you, and I'm gonna say this in air quotes again, to be more than just a mum, because we're never just a mum, that Yeah, is that that's important to you to maintain who you are outside of your mothering role. Very important. Um, I never want to be just anybody. I want to be myself. And I, you know that I'm really ambitious. So I've got a lot of goals. So I can't imagine like just being a mom, I have to be me and fulfilling and successful. And I just have a lot of these deep rooted things that I need to fulfill myself. Where do you think that drive comes from? Is that was there anyone in your life that sort of role model that or is that just, that's just you. It's just me, it's many of you ask, like my mom or my grandma, they'll tell you that I have this number one syndrome that I have to be number one in everything. And it's funny because as a kid, it was true, I needed to be first in line, I needed to be the top of the attendance roster, I needed to be like, number one on the honor roll like all of those things. And I guess it still rings true, but in different ways like it's fueling to want to be and accomplish all of these things. So it's like I have a bucket list of stuff that I want to do before I die and set a good example for my kids and be this person. Hmm. Yeah. Can you share some of the other things that are on your bucket list? If that's appropriate? I haven't asked you this before. You Yeah, sure. Well, writing a book is obviously on the top of the list. I have places that I want to travel. I want to have some speaking opportunities, like I want to get on a TEDx stage or something fun like that, um, surround myself but some people that I consider like, I don't know if you have like bucket list people that you want to like have conversations with Yeah, couple things. Yeah, people that I keep annoying with emails to come on my podcast. And I never hear back from you, we'll keep trying. And like, that's the thing like this has got this experience, doing this sort of stuff has got me really good at just being rejected and not worrying about any more like to just go, no, oh, that's fine. Who's next on my list? You know, and not getting hung up about stuff. It's been a really good teaching experience for me to learn this stuff, you know? Well, it's like it boils down to, it's always going to be no, if you don't ask, yes, yes. Or no, like somebody might have an opening in the calendar, or they might actually be available that weekend. They, you know, whatever the situation is, like, the reason that they're saying no, probably has nothing to do with you. You know, it's probably that they have their kids baseball game that they actually are able to attend this weekend. So they want to go. And that's, I feel like that if you don't ask you don't know. And that, yeah, I've asked some awesome people that have come on, and I thought they would never come on, but it's like, Thank God ask because, you know, just, yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Like? And that's the thing, too, like, I think we just we never know what's going on in other people's lives, like in any in anything, you know, and I think we sometimes can be really quick to judge a person's reaction and put it back onto ourselves. Where it's probably not about us at all, like you said, it's, it's something that in their lives or whatever. Yeah, like, as we know, like all of our lives, we're bound to rob ourselves. Like, I like to think of like Jenna Kutcher, a lot. I always hear that she's just says no to everything. And it's like, it has nothing to do with anybody else. It's just that she has like three priorities. And those are the priorities. So if it's not one of those three things, it's going to be no. And I feel that way about like, when I'm even asked to, let's say, like, over a friend's house or something. If it's, if I'm not feeling up to if my kids are not feeling good, like whatever it is, it's like it's gonna be no, if it doesn't feel any of those things. Hmm, yeah. And there's nothing wrong with saying that like, again, this boundary setting, looking after ourselves, not just saying yes, because we feel we feel bad if we say no. Yeah, well, then you feel guilty or resentful, or saying yes, if you didn't say no. And that's the worst is like saying yes. And not meaning it or wishing that you said no, or being mad that somebody isn't giving you something? Because you said yes. Because you said yes. You know, exactly. Yeah. It's like watching there, isn't there? Yeah, I have a good example to go along with that. One of my girlfriends is getting married. And I told her that I would do her wedding flowers. And I wished that I didn't say, and I'm feeling resentful now. Because it's like, I would rather not commit the time and my own finances to do it. And it's like a really generous gift. And I was like, Is this really like, Why did I say yes, and I'm going back and forth with it. And it's like, I need to just commit myself and I am going to commit myself because I agreed to it. But that's like a really good example of something that you should think, before you say yes. And try not to be resentful of the fact that you did. Because that's the thing isn't like, things can seem really good at the time. And then when you think about it, and you go, oh, like I've done that with singing gigs. And I've said yes to things because I thought, oh, yeah, that'll be fun. And then I thought, ah, but I have to rehearse and I have to learn these songs. And I'm, like, I'm, in my mind. I'm thinking of the gig. I'm thinking, Oh, that'd be awesome. But then I step back and go, Ah, crap, all this stuff that needs to happen to do that. And I think, ah, like, it's not just the thing. Yeah, everything else to go with it. So it's like, my friend's wedding is like Thanksgiving weekend, it's, so it's gonna be a pain in the neck to get flowers. And for her, it's gonna be I have another wedding the next day. So it's like, I'm gonna be adding more work to my load. And it's like, all these other things that make it a lot more difficult than just doing the thing. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, I've gotten I think, I don't know if this is a bad thing to say. But the COVID Everything that happened with COVID actually gave me a time to think about like saying no more like I really enjoyed not rushing out because everything got canceled, all the gigs got canceled, which to start with was quite bad. And then I sort of went actually I'm enjoying not going out all the time now and I'm glad the pressures off because now I don't have to do this. And I know that obviously I'm not dismissing COVID at all like it's very bad a lot of people have have suffered because of it and economies and everything. But one good thing came out of it is it made me start saying no to things because I remembered how good it felt not doing things. Yes, I agree with that. And I agree wholeheartedly with that conversation. cuz, yes, COVID was awful for many people. But there were so many good things that also came out of it like my business, like, as a floral designer took off because of COVID. Because all of the other floors were booked. And there were so many delays so that I was able to actually do 50 Weddings last year and was my first year of business. So it's like, that shouldn't have been possible. But it was because of COVID. And, like you said, like enjoying the actual time, but you had to yourself because of it, we had that same kind of situation, like in 2020, that we were able to just enjoy ourselves and our little family. I actually enjoyed being not having visitors in the hospital when I gave birth, because I had two COVID babies. So it was like I enjoyed being able to actually just be the three of us and not worry about everyone in their brother coming in while I'm breastfeeding and stuff like that. Yeah, I think there was a good stuff. Yeah, that's a really good point, isn't it? Because I think that can that's another whole issue about people not having boundaries, when people have babies that it's like, you just assume, Oh, you've had a baby, great, we'll go see them. And, you know, a lot of people are now saying, we'll let you know, you know, even waiting till they get home and even you know, settling in waiting till breastfeeding is established or, you know, any challenges. I've got an even, like, over here, not so much now. But a few years ago, there was a big thing with whooping cough. So people were saying until you're vaccinated, we don't want you to come to see the baby. So yeah, and I think people just getting more respectful of other people's, you know, wishes, just because it's always been done a certain way doesn't mean that that's, you know, how we should keep doing things. Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. Having the boundaries, and not holding it to like, the expectation that that's how things have to go, you can make it, you can make those decisions and say that this is the new way of doing things. And then actually like it better having the babies like during COVID and saying no, or at least like in the postpartum experience. I can't imagine, like, this is something that I had establishes boundaries, like if you want to come over, you have to bring dinner. Love that, that people are like, can I come over visit? Like, you know, what are you bringing for dinner? Like, are you gonna come over and do some laundry for me? Because I don't want to entertain you. Yes, that is awesome. Like, literally, what are you bringing with you? What are you going to do while you're here, you're just going to sit on your ass and hold my baby while I sit there and think of all these things I've got to do. Or I could be asleep right now. You know. I love that. So we have a digital production company that we just started. And it came to be because of all of the stuff that I've been doing with the YouTube and the podcast and all the social media management and all of that stuff because I had to put together a team to do it. I'm sure you have one too, with editing and whatnot. So I was like, Oh, my goodness, it's a game changer. I've got time, right, you know, it's this is, yeah, I've got time. I can do it. I did not time. So I was like I cannot be sitting here on my computer doing all this. So I hired a team to help me do it. And I realized I'm like, this is a need that I can fill and I need to at least monetize what I'm doing. Because at this point, I was just shelling money out trying to get everything edited and monitor my podcasts and just everything. Social media service, like let me share my team with people to see well that's where that came to be. Yep. So primarily, we help people with podcast editing and production, YouTube Editing and the SEO that goes with it, like the keywords and the titles and the thumbnails and the backlinks and all those fun things that I didn't even know was a thing until I started doing it. Yeah. And social media management. Yeah, right. So where can people find find you online with that if people want a Fievel interested in that. So it's mama media, ma ma M Ed ia.org. And that's where you could find us for those services. was cool. I'll put a link to that in the show notes if anyone wants to check that out. Yeah, it's interesting, like when you say, like, I do it myself because I can and because I really, I had all the equipment here from my singing, so I didn't have to purchase anything and got my mixer, I've got my mic and everything, and I can do all my editing myself. And I actually really love doing it. Like, that's part one of the parts that I actually I really look forward to doing because I love fiddling around doing things, you know, that's just my thing. But there'd be a lot of people that don't love that and don't have the time and don't have the equipment to do it. So I think that's a really good service and good on you for for like, being able to like you've got that team you can share with other people. It's already there. And you can go right, I mean, you can do this for other people. Yeah. Yeah. And like I said, like, it came, like I was just showing money out the door. And I'm like, I can't keep doing this. Like I need to be able to bring something in here. Somehow. I was like, How can I monetize this. And I was like that, like, you've got a perfect little formula right here, like just put it out there. And I love the name T that's a really cool name. Thank you. Just like to share with everybody that listens, that you can do whatever you want in this life, and you don't have to be defined because you're a mom or by that title, you can seriously have your cake and eat it too. And what I mean by that is you can create the businesses that you want, you can create the financial freedom, that financial security that you want, you can do the hobbies that bring you joy, you can create anything that you want in this life. So don't let being a mom define you by that. I grew up with so many people that did and they are not happy, like at the end of the day. And it just is a shame because they're meant for more than that. Hmm, yeah, that's a really, really well said, Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? We just because we have a child doesn't mean that our whole rest of our life has to stop existing. Yeah, like, there's a trend going around right now. That's mom before she was mom. And it's like, all the photos of her having fun. And then like, as a mom, it's just she's holding the kids and putting them down for bed. And it's like, you can do all those fun things with them. Like, it doesn't have to be an end to your life. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It doesn't stop. And I think that's the thing like our, my parents generation, that there was very much, it was very much of us in them. Like, obviously, we're crazy family. But, you know, parents would do so much stuff without the kids. Whereas now I feel like we're involving our kids in so much more other parts of our lives that I wasn't involved in with my parents. So that's really good change, I think. Yeah, I think it's really positive and important and impactful for them to to be part of it. You know, if I were watching my mom, like, do the things that she wanted to do, I think you'd one like have like a newfound respect for them, because you're seeing them doing what they love and happy and joyful. And it's also like setting an example for you that you can do it too, huh? Absolutely. Yeah. It's great. That's a lovely note to end on. Thank you. It's been such a joy chatting with you. Thank you so much for giving me your time today. It's not time over there, isn't it? What time is it? There? They go. It's quarter past 10 In the morning, over here. So it's really a lovely start to my day. Thank you and all the best with everything. I'm sure you're gonna keep keep ticking things off that bucket list and keep achieving things because you Yeah, very motivated, very driven. And it's it's lovely to chat with you. Thank you, Alison. It's been so fun. I hope that everybody enjoyed our chat too. If anybody wants to come over and listen to more than we've got going on come to the Mickey money moves show. I'd love to have Allison on. And you can find me on Instagram at list dot Morton. Awesome. And yes, I'll put all the links so everyone can just click away and find you and that would be awesome. Thank you again. It's been great. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor and she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes Your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage dotnet forward slash podcast

Rosie Rutherford British clarinettist and freelance musician S2 Ep32 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Rosie Rutherford, a clarinettist, composer, freelance musician and educator from Darby in the British Midlands, and a mum of 3 children. Rosie grew up in a musical household with her father and sisters being quite musical, she started on the keyboard at 5, piano at 6 and clarinet at 8 - after there being no flutes available at her school. Rosie studied at the Royal Birmingham Conservatoire , playing in the Folk ensemble, and later met her husband Jamie. She formed a trio with Jamie on guitar and violinist Ning-ning Li called Threaded. They are at their core a folk band, but take their influences from all types of music. They’ve released 3 albums- of what we spoke (2016) Fair Winds & Following Seas (2017), When The Raven Comes Calling (2019) Threaded was commissioned to create the musical score for Red Earth Deaf Accessible Theatre performances in 2018 for Soon Child. going on a live theatre tour around the UK before covid hit. In the past months they have been involved with another show with Red Earth Theatre, The Red Tree. which came out virtually in January 2022. They have also created 5 music videos incorporating Sign Song for the deaf community which you can watch here - https://www.threadedmusic.com/sign-song Rosie also runs Teenie Tempos, a parent and baby/toddler music group based in Derby. Red Earth Theatre https://redearththeatre.com/ Podcast - instagram / website Threaded's music is used throughout this episode with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks for tuning in. My guest today is Rosie Rutherford. Rosie plays the clarinet. She is a composer, a freelance musician and an educator from Darby in the British Midlands in the UK, and a mum of three children. Rosie grew up in a very musical household with her father and sisters all playing instruments, and she started on the keyboard at age five, piano age six and clarinet at age eight. After there were no flutes available at his school. Rosie studied at the Royal Birmingham Conservatoire, playing in the folk ensemble, and she later met her husband Jamie, who also attended the same Conservatoire. She formed a trio with Jamie on guitar meaningly on the violin, and herself, called threaded. They are at their core a folk band but take the influences from all types of music. They have released three albums of what we spoke in 2016, fair winds and following seas in 2017. And when the Raven comes calling in 2019. testable theaters performance of soon child in 2018 and went on a live theater tour throughout the UK with the show before COVID hit. In the past months they have been involved with another show with radio theater called the red tree, which came out virtually in January 2022. They've also created five music videos incorporating sign songs for the deaf community, which you can find through the links in the show notes if you're interested in watching. Rosie also runs teeny tempos a parent and baby toddler Music Group based in Darby. I hope you enjoy our chat. It's a pleasure to have you. Thanks so much for coming on. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. So it's nice to have have a good natter isn't it about all things moms? Absolutely. It's so enjoyable. Whereabouts are you? What's What town are you? Darby? Yeah, so in East Midlands Oh, very good. Yeah. So as you mentioned, it's very misty and, you know, a bit sort of Sunday morning ish there. What, what sort of what's the weather like, there is cold and you know, horrible winter, what's what's going on there is absolutely freezing. It was funny during over the year, it was actually fairly warm. I think it's one of the most warmest years on record. And I thought oh, this will be alright. I can cope with them. And then last week, it was just like really freezing and icy. Yeah, yeah, I'm not I don't mind the cold. I like cold if it's crisp. You know, if you've got the nice bright sunshine. Yeah, but it's just a misty and you drive in and you're like, or can't actually see anything two cars in front of me. And I think the problem with weather here is it's just it changes so fast. So you can't ever you know, cold is absolutely fine. And snow is fine and hot sun is fine. I think it just always takes your body a while to acclimatized to it. So if it just happens really fast. You just feel like a sore all the time. You just like going on. It's like it's catching up with what's going on. And then it changes again and then you've got today here it's been what 30 Probably got up to 32 Today your associates. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so not Yeah. summer's day here. It's been beautiful like, oh, sorry, I shouldn't say. I could just pretend although I said the other day, I spoke to a lady who was in Canada and she had snow. And I was like, so jealous because I've never skied. I've looked at I've seen snow and I've touched it, but I've never actually been to the snow. So I'm like, Oh my gosh, that'd be awesome. As my sleep comes the same playing field across my chest, and the softness All right, so tell me about your music. I've discovered you as a, of course. That white thing that you're playing, it looks like a storm true for wind Institute. It's like, can you tell us about what you play with the proper names of things? Not like the Stormtrooper instrument? Yeah, no. So I'm a I'm a clarinetist is my is my main thing. And so I play clarinet, bass clarinet. But I also play all the woodwinds as, as a protective music teacher and stuff like that. So the Stormtrooper instrument, which is a discord and electronic wind instrument, which for a project that I'm working on at the moment, has to try and get my fingers around it so we can use it to because it's, it uses MIDI, so it can import into the computer. So it's the same thing. Dreams is a saxophone. It's just like electronic saxophone, but, but it has like the same functions as a keyboard. So you can you can have all these different all these different sounds. So it's proper novelty. So just for like having when I get a minute to have a little go and find another different different core sounding things. I can I can play yeah, so it is cool, but it's really it's really crazy instruments really strange. I've been enjoying watching a little Instagram, little posts you put up when you're finding all the different settings and this one sounds like like you've been sucked through vortex or something. So cool. It is. And I thought because I got it literally at the start of December just landed on my mat. And I was like, right, so I'll try and be festive. We're trying to a different Christmas carol every single day on it, then um, it gives me a chance to like play every day, but it's very, I don't have to commit much time to because that's always the problem, isn't it? Like is you want to do something every day but actually finding the time to commit that and I was like a Christmas carol. I can probably do. I still didn't manage every day, but I managed most days. Think I've got through a lot of the core settings. Yeah. It's good fun. It's like yeah, into discovering what what all the buttons do. Yeah, that's it. So how did you get into music? Have you always been musical? Did you grew up in a musical household? Yeah, I think so. So my dad plays. He's a he's a blues man. So he's a guitarist and harmonica player. But actually, when I was a child, he didn't he plays a bit of guitar but he didn't kind of gig or anything like that. So I think we just we just always got into music. me I've got two sisters. And we're always quite musical. And yeah, so I think I started playing the I think I started on the keyboard when I was about five and then did piano at six and then I picked up the clarinet when I was eight. Yeah, right. Do you remember why you went to the clarinet? Was there a sort of something that drew you to this is one of those questions that is like so so I want to play the flute but they didn't have any in school. So I want clarinet sure did around No. Oh, my second choice. Now I'm so glad I'm actually so glad because the character is like I just thought Do you love it? And it's so me. So it was meant to be there was meant to be no flutes left that was always meant to happen. Yeah. Have you ever gone back and tried to play the flute? Has that ever been something you've tried? Yeah, so what do I do now? Yeah, not not like not that well, but um, is it you know, but I can play it well enough to double on it and then I can teach it I can teach it so. Yeah, so I do play it and it is really nice as well but it isn't the current app. So it's alright. It's funny how things work out isn't it? How many other instruments do you play? Mainly so clarinet and bass clarinet kind of my main things and then I play a bit flute player play sax, and I've tried to get into the whistle so absolutely love Yeah, I love the Irish we're so big fake lover. So during the lockdown I was trying to get a little bit better at that. And but it's like everything once you start delving in a little bit, it's just becomes it's just a minefield and there's and then you want to be able to do everything and amazingly you don't you and you're like well if I'm gonna say that I'm doing this then I have to be able to do this. But it's just a complete like it's just a whole life time of musical knowledge to fit into learning a new thing so it's Work in Progress see your glances involving a Tree Yard quote. Fred is telling you say threaded is it's, I guess it's like my little baby in terms of musical stuff. So it's me my husband Jamie on guitar and then our friend lighning who plays violin. And we got together. We all studied at Birmingham, Conservatoire, Royal Birmingham Conservatoire as it is now. So and they're all and we all did classical music degrees, performance degrees on our instruments. And we played in a big, massive folk group, they're called Joe Biden's conservative folk ensemble, which is amazing. It's, I mean, it differs in numbers, but it's around 60 people. And you know, and we do the festival circuit and everything. And it's just all like, it's amazing. You should absolutely check out check out Conservatorio contemplate screen, it's still going. And every because it's a it's used. The people that are in Conservatoire, and then the personnel changes kind of, sometimes yearly, sometimes every four years, but it's, it's grown over the past 20 odd years. It's brilliant. And we and we played there and that kind of spot, I've always referred music, because like, like I said, my dad's been a blues man. And he and my mom have always been into music. So always growing up growing up around it. But funnily, in a clarinetist, I kind of thought I can't play folk music as a kid, you know, because it's such a classical. Well, I think it's either a classical or jazz journey that you take with an instrument like the clarinet because you think, Oh, the clarinet, so and because of the teachers and the era, they live and the I guess the pathways that are open to you to start studying, it was straight. Classical, is the path that I took. And so you kind of think, oh, you know, I can't really play folk music on the clarinet. It's not a folk instrument. So although I loved it, I didn't really do much on it until I got to college. And then because we had the folk ensemble, and I was like, Oh, this is great. Learn to do some tunes, and, and things. And then, and obviously, when you start then exposing yourself to this new world of all this free music, you kind of think, well, folk music actually. Like it's the music of the people. It's our music. This is what I love play. I love it. And so me and Jamie and Nunes because we love playing together anyway. We just thought we're going to create our own group and, and we're just going to play our own music. So the great thing about Fred it is that it's all devised. We generally one of us will bring a tune or a song and then we just get together. We turn it into a piece and and it's all original stuff. So it it's so it's really beautiful. Like it's beautiful for us because you know it takes that creative box because you just don't and you've got this outlet. And it's a safe place as well, because we're all, you know, we're all on the same page. So it's nice and easy. So, yeah, I feel really, really lucky to kind of have that place to just be creative with people that you can bounce off so easily. Yeah, so that's kind of where it came from. So we were like, we're not really focused. We don't really know what we are to be honest. Like, we're developing, I guess it's developing all the time, but kind of started with like, folk influence, but it's definitely like, we take influences and inspiration from everywhere and everything. So yeah, that's good. Yeah. And it must feel good to like, I've got two things I want to ask you, just from what you said, but the first thing is like to have, like you said, how it's a safe space. Like you can go there with your ideas and not feel like judged. You can play the thing you want to play and not feel like everyone's going, Oh, that's no good. You know, if you have that trust with each other, that you can play something and not feel scared or, you know, yeah, I don't know what the word is. I'm trying to intimidate. Yeah, that's what I'm going. Yeah, you feel really good to be able to share stuff and be honest with each other. And, yeah, that's it. And also, you know, that you know, that whatever you bring will, like we I don't know, it's like, because I think we do, I mean, obviously, I'm play. But recently, I've been doing a lot more composing and songwriting for various other things as well, not just threaded, but the great thing is that, whatever you see, whatever we seem to bring, we managed to make something work out. Even if it's completely different by the end of the session, then it is the start. But it's like that having everyone's kind of collective voices in there. Just always, we think, yeah, it just feels so easy. Because that it's such a positive experience. Always, you know, whatever you bring, and then you get to the end of it, you're like, oh, this, this has made this really great thing. Now that's, and you feel quite satisfied at the end. So yeah, I feel very lucky to have that place to be able to be creative. Absolutely, um, I've thought of something else to ask you. I'll come back to that. So do you guys do? Maybe COVID? You know, been annoying. But do you guys do a lot of live shows with the music? Or is it mainly recorded stuff that you chose? Um, well, pre pandemic? Yeah, so when we first started, and I guess for the first chunk of our time together, it's just kind of, we were just doing lots of like, mainly live stuff. So kind of small art centers festival type stuff, because I think that's where our musics best suited. And then in 2018, we got commissioned to work with this company called Red a theater. We do differ decibel performances. And so we wrote the score for a show with them and their show soon child, which was amazing. So that was kind of our first commission. So and then we did a live theater tour around the UK with them as onstage musicians and actors. Yeah. And then, and then it was pandemic hit. So when, but in between that we did three albums as well. So I think the first album was out in 2016, I want to say and then 27 teen and then 2019 was when we did the last album, which was the music from seeing child that we recorded. Yeah. Yeah. And then since then, since pandemic, obviously we've done a couple of live shows. But we because I mean me and Jamie are married so that's quite easy we can we can work and well I say it's easy next not easy with having we also have three children but that's another story that we can you know when we've got stuff we can create and write in evenings, but nothing slips in Birmingham. So it's not too far distance it's about four to five minutes but obviously we were all in lockdown as you guys were as well. I think we couldn't get together for quite a long time. So yeah, so we've done a lot we've tried to put a few things together last year just online just kind of over the Instagram to do some stuff but we haven't. So this year we're hoping that we're going to be able to do a lot more we did a reason we did we did something last year which we got some funding for which was turning so off the back of soon child like I said read out there to the Deaf accessible. They did deaf accessible theater so we and what we did with them with our songs is worked with science on directors and used a lot of science song in it so all of their shows is integrated in BSL to British Sign Language. So the actors are sign as well as talk so then when we did it when we put the songs in they are they were all signed in and off the back of that we kind of thought, you know, like, it gives an extra layer to our music, which we've never had before, like this visual element. And it's beautiful sign song is absolutely beautiful, because not only is it a language, and it's obviously a communication tool, but it's also just like this form of, it's just almost like dance with the performance when it's so beautiful. And so that that enhances the music so much, actually. And we kind of thought, Oh, well, we want to, once you've also kind of connected with the deaf community, we were like, We want to be doing this all the time, like the inclusion is just, it's just so important. So we've started trying to work and make find ways to make our music more accessible. So we've developed like, threaded, which is still going started the three of us, but we've kind of got a tangent as well called the threaded collective. And with that we're doing lots of different projects, working with other artists. So one of them is going to be the Deaf accessibility and music and how we can work and develop that and work with some deaf performance. It's not doing the sign song with us and things like that. So we're hopefully got a couple of festivals in the summer already. And we're going to work on developing that. So yeah, it's amazing. It's kind of all doing this. And you're just like, oh, I never expected that this would finish here. But that's where it's going. And we're just gonna go with it. Yeah, amazing. I've never heard of sign song before. Is that like, how did you said, signing? Two songs that don't have lyrics? Or like, how does it? Can you explain? Yeah, so I mean, I'm no expert. But it's mainly it's it's just Deaf, Deaf people, interpretation of the songs, so and how they sign it. So. And therefore, the beauty of it is that everyone's interpretation might be slightly different. So you can obviously some will do a literal translation. And but then sometimes, obviously, songs songs are really interesting, aren't they? Because obviously, a lot of songs are metaphors. And though you use metaphors within the songs, or the song is a metaphor for something else, or it's emotive, so when you're when we're working with them, with the science on performers, often it's talking about the context of it, what you mean by that line, and then they will interpret it, I guess, like any will, it's like any translation is if you translate in a book, but they'll work on it. So the signing that they do isn't necessarily like literal signing, it's all trying to create the metaphor. So it's so it's just this whole thing is just as beautiful performance, because it's just that everything working together. It's just amazing. That seems to be able to create music that can become a part of that. Do you know what I mean? Really, really? Absolutely. I'm gonna do some Googling when we get get off here, because that sounds amazing. Yeah, a whole new thing I've I've never known. Yeah. Yeah. Well, within theater, the accessible theater is becoming quite rightly, much bigger here. So there is a lot more access. And I think the UK really working on it. And but in music, sometimes, you know, there's been some performances, there's been some stuff that's on festivals and Glastonbury, they had a big, big thing, there was a signer with a wrap up, but still, it's not it that we've got so far. We need to go the long way to go. So yeah, it's we feel like quite strongly, it's important. And it's a way that that so many people could quite easily add this access level in a beautiful way. And then, you know, and it's just and it's just like, it's amazing to watch and it means you're including so many more people within your performance. So it's really good. Yeah, well done. That's wonderful. I love that wage, roll up your brain pole to get not far to go on what I was gonna ask before, what's it like working so closely with your husband? Basically. It's actually amazing. I think our relationship it came from being musical together I think. So. I think we're at we're often at our best as a couple when we are being creative together. I think we probably find that things are more strained when we're not getting the opportunity and it's just home after you know what I mean. So when because Because yeah, so much of it is so much of I guess why we love being together is being creative, and I definitely feel like much better music session with him. And I think because instrumentally dynamically because he's a guitarist. So any tune i i write or any kind of like songs he will be like. And then it kind of makes it like quite quickly being on that same wavelength. Whereas I didn't necessarily have the scale to be like, I know exactly how I'm going to accompany this. Jamie will be like, this sounds good. And I'm just like, yes, that is what I was aiming for. So yeah, it's actually really nice. But obviously, with having the family it has become a much bigger juggle for us to be able to work together. In terms of like childcare and other logistics, so at the moment, he's working. So the, the theatre company, Red Earth, which we did scene child with, me and Jamie, right, have worked on the music for their next show, which she is currently rehearsing called the red tree, which is a book by shot and it's beautiful picture book. And so we've written the music together, or like the main terms of music, some of it, he'll divide in the process. But originally, we were both kind of going to be on it in stage, but then I had my third little baby in August. So I haven't been able to do the tour. And that's going to be live streamed at the end of the month. So I feel like, I feel like a solo parent. Because normally you work with you're going around each other and it's like I'll do this day he does this day or this evening, and, you know, work around it. Whereas because it's every day, it's Monday to Saturday for the whole month. I'm just like, Yes, I actually have all the admiration for single parents, because I did about three days. And I was like, oh, people do that. The school run. I mean, like, I feel like the school run is harder than having a third child. Like having to be in the same place twice a day and get everyone ready to get out of the house on time. Yeah, that is just that is the kettle of fish do. I was like something. Show me what you've got something. What I can do. So you have three children. How old are your older children? So my daughter Ruby is four. My son is three. And then the little baby Louie is four months old. I love that name. Louisans says Did you meet your husband at like in a music capacity? Do you only ever known each other through music? Yeah, yeah. So we we studied at the same same Conservatoire. But we didn't know each other while we were studying. Because he was here above me. And Qataris Tantek. They kept themselves to themselves classical guitarists that come in for their things. Whereas obviously, the clarinetists you'd be in the orchestra in the band. So I was in a lot more. So I never, I didn't really know him. It wasn't until after we'd finished that through friends and stuff. We met each other. So yeah, so it's weird because we went to the same place, but we have completely different, you know, but before being together, we just have completely different experiences of being there. Which is a bit strange, but you know, it's funny, isn't it? Do you remember seeing him there? Like, did you ever seen you see each other there to remember? I don't really remember. I think I think I did go to one of his projects is major project, but um, but I didn't really know him. Just because we're friends with the painful. Yeah. And then. So it was mainly after we'd finish that we got to know each other. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So every since you got together, we've always played music together, or did it take a bit of time to sort of warm up to the fact that you were going to share this? It was like, instant sort of? Yeah, yeah. It was pretty instant. Pretty instant. So. So yeah, that's always been really nice. It's always been something that we've done, and we've been able to able to do together. And then it's, you know, and and then being able to kind of get together and stuff. It's really nice, because it's almost like date night. Date Night is just going and doing a gig. So it's like working day, but but it is nice. It's like a nice experience. So I feel like we get to share with each other. She's really good. Absolutely. That's lovely. So you talked briefly about how it's a bit tricky with now that you've got the kids with childcare, how to how do you manage if you've got some good support around you? For the kids? Yeah, I'm really lucky so my mum and dad live fairly Place and my sister and Jamie's parents are retired. So they've that when we did the when we did the tour they kind of came down and stayed for a chunk. So we were able to do it. So yeah, I mean we can only we've only been able to facilitate the word being able to tour and stuff because we've got like family and friends support so we are really really lucky. Yeah, it makes all the difference doesn't it really does. Like when you said before about people that do it on their own soul parents I've Yeah, I just don't understand how they do it. I go out of my brain if I was the only one doing this never made that absolutely amazing Absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I will see you. When you I'm interested to ask you this because I'm a singer. That's my background. When you were pregnant with the with each child, did you find it really hard to breathe while you were playing your instrument? Yeah, I think, well, I had I had different pregnancy experiences. So and which affected which affected my play in and I think some of them are more mentally than others. But with with Ruby, my first one I had a really big bleed at 13 weeks. And they never knew why. Yeah. So they were kind of like, you know, take it easy. And I got like tours booked. And in the end, I just had to I couldn't I didn't pay because I was because you know like you have this degree. And it's all tummy muscles isn't it and I was scared to use them because it was like, because they don't know why I've had this. And then so I didn't really play for the first kind of six months. And then I've got some stuff in and I think probably felt a little bit more confident to kind of hit but I still never supported properly, often just playing from here because I was going to use my dummy. And then. And then with Arlo, I think I think I did have some bleeding again. But I think it was really early on. And then I was kind of fine for playing and stuff. So I did quite a lot of work with him. And he that was that felt like generally a much easier pregnancy. But he was got pregnant after nine months after having reap. So I think I was just such in such a sleep deprived state from her because she just didn't sleep until she was about four that I just probably didn't didn't think about I was just in autopilot. So I think I just kind of work through a bit more. And then with live, it's really similar. I had a had a really big bleed at 11 weeks, or just performance, we scan. Really, really it was on the birthday, actually, I'd had a burger were locked down. But we'd ordered this burger I was really excited. And then it started bleeding. And then I had to go to AD. But I knew that was a similar thing to read, like had that gut feeling like that he that it was fine. So I was like I knew it was but it's obviously still terrifying. And then after that, I was a bit like oh, I've been scared. I was scared to play again because I just don't want to put any pressure on you don't want to rupture anything. So yeah, and I felt really tired for a lot of that pregnancy. So that's when I did a bit more whistle playing because it's just not the same type that you just don't have to put the same type of like support on and everything. But then then you don't know whether some of it's just because you know it's their time on your body's tired it's just like you're doing this again. You've got the other two that you're actually got to look after I did lockdown because this you know, you're trying to be so positive and you know, for the kids especially. And but there isn't that much to do either. So you you know you think you're tired because you just like the whole situation is just exhausting, isn't it? The pandemic itself is just so it's exhausting. Just so yeah, yeah. Oh, that's interesting. I always like to ask musicians that are that are in that area that can relate to I had a shocking first pregnancy it was fine. I don't know why but the second one, I don't know. He sat up right on my diaphragm. It was ridiculous. I couldn't breathe to save myself. And that was starting to use up here too much putting too much strain on my on my actual, you know, in my voice and I had to give up a few gigs was like I can't actually project anymore. This is you know, there's nothing I can and the problem is you you feel really bad because you did you know Like, you don't want to cancel stuff anyway, because you know, you pregnant you're absolutely candid, but you don't know until the time d that actually this this isn't and it can change so quickly. Yeah, I was kind of Alright, doing this. And then I got to about seven months, and I was like, I literally have no space that I can do. So yeah, yeah. It's a funny thing, isn't it? Good on him? Day to day with the kids now, do you basically set time of an evening just to work on your music with your husband? Yeah, generally, generally. I mean, when when we've had commissions, like when we were working on the theater stuff, we did block out days to do it. And, and the same when we were working on the collective stuff last year, we would we blocked out days to do it. But when we've been in lockdown, obviously, we haven't been able to use the chat we had, we couldn't use the childcare at some point of it. So then it would have to be evenings. So in the summer, it's alright, because you still feel like you have like evening time, but in the winter, it doesn't, it doesn't mean that you don't end up getting very much done. The kids are in bed, and it's like half past eight, nine o'clock. And then you're like, right, we've got to have dinner. And then we've got to try. And we've got to try and create. So I think I think it depends on what we're creating for as well. Like if it's commission stuff. Because there's a brief and it's kind of got to get done, you can be a bit more pragmatic about it, it's like, well, you know, if we are doing the evenings, we'll commit three or four evenings to it. And we will get it done in that time, because that's the time. Whereas if it's our own stuff, like if it was just kind of like more. So if we take the threaded or stuff about rain, then you can be a little bit more like, well, we'll just get together in an evening and have a bit of a jam and see what happens. And that's a lot. I feel like that the winter months are never that good for that type of thing. For me, I think fat. And I don't know whether it is just because I'm so brain dead by the time it gets to the I can't I can't think and also a lot of a lot of creating on my instrument. It's just playing. So it's a lot of improvising and seeing what comes out of improvising. And the current house isn't that big. So you can't really do that. When the kids are in bed loudly. And in the winter. In the summer. We've got we've got a conservator on the back so you can kind of go in there. And it's warm. But in the winter, it's actually freezing because the Conservatives the court really typically delivery very much just ended up not doing a lot which was probably the attic. But I think if you're trying to be creative, if it's your job and you've got to write stuff on top, then it's like any job isn't it? You've got to get it done. So you will find find the time and the space. But I think if it's for me, I have to be in the right frame of mind to do it. And yeah, and in the right space for it to for it to be enjoyable. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And and that's the thing, like if you're forcing it, it's you're not you're creative. tivity is not going to come you could because you're just like, Oh, I've got to do it and nothing's going to come when you put pressure on yourself like that. Like, like you said, you need the time to just fiddle about and see what comes out on. Yeah, absolutely. Oh. What's your thoughts about mum guilt? I think that I feel like we shouldn't have it. But I think so many of us do. And I think even if, from people I spoke to and friends and everything, and I think and I think it's like anything, I think it's, I think it just stems because you care, and you want to make the right choices. And I think for your children, and I think as mums. I don't know you kind of there's this thing, isn't there anything that you do for yourself? It's at the expense of doing it for your children. And that isn't, but it isn't. But I think we'd have to go through that process, don't we? And it seems, seems that lots of people have to, you know, go kind of through this process and find, find out how you're going to work and what you need to do. And what you would class is something that makes you feel bad, and something that makes you not feel bad. So I think it's different for everybody. I know, I've definitely had it, I get it a lot. I think it's, but I know I shouldn't have it. Because a lot of it is like work. It's because I've because, you know, if you're gonna go and do something for work, then you feel bad, because you're like other kids are being having to go so this person isn't going to this person, but then you need to earn a living. So yeah, then you can't have the quality of life that they're gonna have if if you don't earn any money. So yeah, I think it's really it's really interesting. And I feel like now my attitude towards it has developed after like being on my third child, because I know, when I just had Ruby, you know, kind of anything feel really, really bad. And I wouldn't, I'd be like, Oh, no, I can't do anything for myself, I can't go for a run because the house is a mess. And I've got to do this, I've got to do the washing and everything before I do this little thing myself. And now, I'm a bit like, well, if I want to play my bass clarinet for 10 minutes, the house has missed and I'm just going to do it because I only have one life and it's not fair and everyone else that I'm resentful because I don't get to do it. Because actually, it's my choice. But it's taken, you know, it's taken a long time for me to kind of get to that point of that I will do that. I still haven't been out the house for a run yet. anyone to do anything because it because you know, it's like, well, if I've got if I have got half an hour for me, then what am I going to do with it? If I was to have if I was to probably have longer than that and start feeling a bit like, oh, I probably should be doing this and probably shouldn't be doing that. Yeah, and you know, I'm taking on gigs and things and I When Ruby was little we did a lot more gigging because it was the, you know, the other side of the pandemic. So things were actually booked in. And I didn't feel bad about that, because I didn't everything was booked beforehand. And I didn't know and I think I just struggled leaving. But I think when there are as I don't know, I think you know, like, once you've gone through it, you know, they're going to be fine as well. You know, when that it's always worth thinking of what, what's it gonna be like? Whereas, you know, it is always okay. So yeah, yeah, with that benefit of experience, then you know, that your your next two children, it's actually going to be fine. We'll be fine. Yeah. But it is hard. Because, you know, I think everyone feels guilty to some degree. I think people just have different. Some people and people feel different, like guilty about different things, don't they? And for some people, their guilt might stem from work related. So for some people, it might stem from like socializing, they feel like they shouldn't go out and have a drink because or see their friends. Because you know that because the children have their bedtime routine. And, and yeah, I think everyone will have something that they struggle with in terms of mum Gill. But, yeah, yes, finding the balance. I think that's so true. Because I think it's yeah, the balance of like, I think you still need to do something for yourself. Like, you can't just be a mum all the time, you actually still have to be yourself and especially, you know, with your husband, you still have to have that relationship. And it's a funny thing, like when you have kids, it's like, I don't know, this is expectation that your whole world has to completely stop and revolve around the kids which is fair enough for for a period of time like it has to because they're so little and they can't do anything but I think it's a no from what I'm finding talking to different mums through this. It's like well, there's a point when you actually go hang on a sec. I'm still me and I actually want to go do stuff that I did before. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really important for for your children to See you? And I think them's. I mean, we notice it loads with Ruby because she, with, with coming from a very musical household, she's now like, she's so into it. And we haven't, you know, for a while, like, would you want to do this? And she'd be like, No, I don't want you to show me how to do that. I do it my way, when we can have gotten your clarinet, and I'd be like, because kids want me to, I don't want you to show me I just want to do it, which is like, you know, fair enough. But now she's gonna, which is making a pro songs, and she's doing all this stuff. And she's only four. But, but I think, for me, I want her to see me go, you know, especially for as a as a woman that I can, I can still be an artist, and I can be a performing musician, and I can do this, and I can still have a family, and be a present mom, but be still be creative. And be me because, you know, that's, you want, I don't know, like, that's, I feel, I feel proud, I guess that I'm managing to juggle these plates, because I always wanted to be be a musician. And, you know, and it's tough. There's lots of tough elements about it. And, you know, a lot of people feel that they can't balance a family and be a musician, because, because it, you know, you end up having to turn down so much work because of various things. And I think, you know, if they can still see if your kids can still see you being you that's, that's really good for them to know that or they could, you know, they can still have the life that they want to do. And, yeah, I think it's, I think it's really nice and also have an understanding that time is that their time is or that your time is split, but over things that are important, you know, and especially our, whatever your artistic discipline, that's something that you've worked at, usually your whole life, or, you know, from an age of being able to do it, you know, with dance or art or whatever, and you've committed so many hours that just because, you know, you decide to take on the responsibility in whatever capacity of being a parent, you don't stop. That doesn't stop, because that's part of who you are. And so I think it's important is for your children to see that that time still happens in time still exists, like I still have to practice because otherwise, if I get a call to go and do a gig, I can't if my lips not in I'm not going to be able to do it. So, but it's not at the expense of time with them. Yeah, it's, it's just part of our daily life and routine. And so yeah, I do think that that's important. But I'm only kind of starting to, like, put that time and now you know, it's taken me a while of not feeling bad for doing practice, even though I believe that I shouldn't feel bad for doing it. And I have to do it. It's still, you know, it's still actually doing it. But yeah, it is good. Yeah, I love that. I love the way you describe that. Because that's like, that's how I feel. It's like, I think it's wonderful. Especially, I mean, I don't have any girls, but for my boys to see, you know, the woman who if they end up with a woman that they, you know, that becomes a mother should their children, but she still does all the things that she did before she had kids, you know, it's just in your slotted into your life, like you said, you you're practicing your you know, it's part of what you do, and your children see you do that, which is just, I love that it is so wonderful. Yeah, I love it. And I think you know, like, for, for our kids as well, we're definitely noticing that they, they all seem to love. Like either whether it's performing or I think kids kids respond to what they're exposed to, don't they so but as they're always making up songs now, even though their three year old, he's really started to get into the dispersing in and they'll be they'll be doing that payment, these payments, dinosaurs and he's making up songs. And you think that's just because it's exposure, and I'm sure it's like, you know, all children or children are sponges, aren't they. So whatever you do in your house, your children will pick it up. And whatever. So I think that's the thing, whatever it is that you love, and you want for any mom, even if they're not, if it's not art, if it's you know, yoga or, or climbing, or whatever it is that you want to do is kind of your hobby, if the kids can see it, that they absorb it. It's something that that often it can be something you end up doing together because they think oh, my mom is this, I'm interested in it. mom or dad's doing this. And that's what we've kind of found with ours, whatever it is, we're kind of doing that they want to do. And then you end up still being able to do the thing that you love and you do it with them. I my husband really loves drawing. And he's always drawn and he's you know, he's really good at drawing but it's just something that he does for himself and he really enjoys it and so the kids are annual sit and draw with the kids. And so their art is amazing. Well, me I know I'm so it's my kids, but I think that there is really, it's really brilliant. But I'm just like since they've been able to hold a pen you sat there and drawn with them. And so that's something that they are really like to do. I mean so then when I I see it and if we, you know, draw it or whatever, and I'll draw, they're just like, Oh, what's that meant to be mommy? Daddy's is better, just like, I'm trying. No, but they do they just pick it up so much that I think it is important, therefore, for them to see you doing things that you enjoy. Yeah, it just becomes a part of life. It's like, it's not a sure thing. That it's like, Okay, now, we're now done going to do this, but it's just incorporated in your life. It's just what you do. Yeah, I love that. That's this beautiful, that's so good. How did you feel then this, I like this concept of identity about how we view ourselves as a woman, then we have children, you know, how do we see ourselves? Did you sort of have a concept of your own identity change when you became a mom, I don't know, you know, I don't know whether it really has. If I think about it, like, I still feel like I'm really easy. And I'm very lucky, because I've got the same friends, I haven't. And a lot of my friends from school, we all move back to the same place. So we all kind of went out to study, whatever we did at university, and then we've all kind of come back to the same place. So I've got a lot of the same friends, a few of them have also had children at the same time. And all my friends from studying at college, still fairly close with them. And I think I've still I've been very lucky that I've been able to be facilitated to still work. And so I kind of feel like I don't think I've changed. Does that make sense? It does. I don't feel any different. I think I just, I just Yeah, I think I don't feel any different. I have literally got more responsibilities, but I think I try and yeah, it's yeah, I'm not putting words in your mouth. But it's almost like, because you've got this musical practice, which is endemic to you, and you've got the relationship with your husband, who's also got the music, it's like, you're able just to bring the children into your world. And continue with that, what you had, and the children and sort of they have joined into your world, and you'll still be able to maintain who you are without any sort of like, oh, I have to give this up, or I have to do this. Now whatever. I think so. I think and I'm very lucky that I guess I'm surrounded by people that have supported that. And being with with me and my husband both being artists, you know, that has challenges, you know, it because it's not like often, often, for other friends who are artists, they're married to someone who has got a stable job. And not that not all artists are stable, but we're freelancers so it is up and down. So one of them, you know, so they can be they can kind of project work that they want, but they know if they're gonna if they're going to have a family or whatever, there's going to be a stable income coming in nine to five sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. Whereas obviously, we both of us, we haven't got that. And we've always relied on because, you know, very lucky, we're very, very equal. We've always kind of both worked in both, both on whatever. So having a family for us and me being a moment. We've we've, we've kind of thought, well, we're going to do it and we'll make it work around this and Jamie chipped in just as much as me. So I don't know, I yeah, I've been able to just kind of carry on and also have things in place. For the work that I do that I will take the children if I need to. So I've been very lucky that I've been able to do it. My work that's kind of more artsadmin like I've gotten I've done, I've done like training and I've just had the baby in the sling. Because so because I'm breastfeeding and I'm gonna go to work and have to take the baby and that's just it. So and but I've been very lucky that people have been very accepting of that. Because if I was maybe in a business where that wasn't acceptable, you know, not all businesses, it isn't acceptable, you know, if you're a nurse or whatever, can't take your baby to work. So I do feel very lucky that I've been able, you know, the support network around me at work as well as home as men that I have been able to have children and still work as an artist, you know, and that so and I know not everybody does have that support. So I do feel very lucky. I think sometimes it's what it's wanting to do it though, isn't it like I think I am. I'm quite proud RTX I'm like, Well, I still want to do this, and I want to have children. So therefore I have to, I have to make it work. And so I have to put myself in positions, that I can do it. So yeah, a lot of it is setting things up that I've had to do myself. You know, a lot of my work and everything I've gone out to find and projects I do the funding applications for and everything which I have to do my own time, there's been a lot of midnight 1am is writing funding bids for you. But that means that when we've been lucky, and we've been successful, it's meant I've been able to do the work I want. And because I've been project manager, and they've been able to make things work. So yeah, it's it is. It is hard work to make it work. But it's worth it. If you want to make it if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. You also teach music. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So I do peripatetic teaching. So I go around some schools, it's mainly been primary schools, and I do private teaching at home as well, which is, some kids are mainly adults that I teach privately. Yeah. Yeah. Is that changed a lot through COVID? Did you have to do lots of stuff online? Yeah, so a lot of it was online, which is tough. I think teaching online is really, there's some really good things about it, in the sense that it's actually you can fit more people in, you know, condense it. So and, and you you don't have in, yeah, you're not having to do too much traveling. So that's good. And it's convenient, especially for adults. Because often if you finish work, and then you have to go out to the clarinet lesson, you can be bothered to go and do that, you know, on a dark evening. And actually, that timelines worked quite a lot for them because they can slot in the parents with the children because they're, you know, if you've got to having to take little Germany to x and x. You know, it's tiring, isn't it after your work? So some parents are actually quite good. But but it isn't. It isn't the same. Yeah. Nothing can nothing is the same as having face to face lessons. So that was tough during the pandemic, but everyone that I teach cope so well. And it was amazing to be able to keep it going. Yeah, yeah. So your place is called Darby. That's it. Right. Yeah. And you're near Birmingham? Yeah. Are you from the North? This is one of those questions. Because, you know, I think it's because if you're from the south, everything north of Birmingham is the North. Whereas if you're from the north, then like, then it depends on where you, you know, if you were from Yorkshire, you would not pass me as a Northerner. It'd be like, Midlands, that's not enough. Whereas if you were London, you'd probably class be a Northerner. So that depends on who you talk to. Looking at the map, like there's still quite a lot of north north of you. Yeah, quite a lot going up. Yeah. To be to be safe. I'm in Midland, you're indecisive. I don't know where I am just hovering around. That's funny. It's like your relative to other people telling you where you are. That's it. That's it. Sorry, I'm scrolling now. What sort of projects? Can you share any projects that you've got on the go stuff you've got coming up that you want to share? With the list? Yes. Yes. So what am I doing? So we've got a work one of the jobs that I do I work for a hospital trusters arts coordinator on Amis music coordinator, and during the pandemic, we did some Commission's and writing some stuff. So this year, we've got We've got quite a big project coming up in the summer, which is going to be a reflection on the pandemic and stuff with the staff. And so we've written a song for that, which we'll do with the staff choir. And it's hopefully going to be a sharing a lot of the staff wrote poems and things like that as part of like reflection for them. So I'm organizing that which will be hopefully really beautiful and really reflective and really nice. And then threaded wise, we've got at the moment, putting together some for some summer festivals. And we're working with the University in Nottingham as well to develop some tech which will support the access. So that's a bit of a kind of experiment as to what they are developing and we will try will pilot is from festivals and see, see how it works. And if it works. So we're going to be doing that in the summer, as well. And that's ongoing and yes on collective performances. And we're going to try we're going to we're getting back on with some threaded stuff this year as well. So we've got some dates of the day with names and we're gonna write some new music. Yeah, which I'm really looking forward to. And then, yeah, we've got the red tree, which is the the music I've written for the theatre company that's been live streamed. On Sunday, the twin, it's Sunday, the 29th of January at Wolverhampton theatre. So I mean, if it's live stream, I imagine that anybody could get one even if you're in Australia, you could watch it I imagine if it's live streamed, yeah, for sure. So that story, the red tree, I think it's aimed at children six upwards, and it's about, it's about the little girl who she wakes up in a room and she's got nothing to look forward to. And each book, each picture of the book is a different kind of scenario. And it's about anxiety, depression, really, I think the book, but then at the end, it's all hopeful. So they've been doing a lot of work. And so it's going to be live streamed into schools during the week. But anyone with children that especially after the pandemic that has that type of, you know, children, because children have experienced a lot of isolation and anxiety more than I think. I know, I know, that happens anyway. But I think just so it's just such a big thing. At the moment, I think they thought it was going to be a really great book, because it might help children reflect on their feelings a little bit. So for sure. A good one to check out if anyone wants to watch some live stream theater. So yeah, and then. Yeah, and then I think, and then apart from that, I just got to try and get some more gigs in but I am being honest, because I'm on maternity leave. So yeah, real thing, but. But I have just after LUMION and really started school in September. So that juggle, I've got on with some stuff, but I need to get back on that. And then I'm also starting my baby music classes back at the start of next month as well, because I do a little group called Ed tempos. And it's really lovely. And so because I've got Aluna, I can take him and I do that, because that's really nice. And it's really good now, because I've got the children and I've seen them go through that. So did did it with the others. It's like it actually is amazing. I know. I know, music is amazing for children's development. But I've seen firsthand that now. Like seeing it go from nought to five. Because they did all this stuff like rubes is like her ear and all those musical issues that the pianos just work like to work out tunes. And that that's just because of exposure, you know, and you don't have to come from a musical household for your children to be able to do that. I think all children can do it. It's just exposure. Yeah, that's Yeah. How long have you been doing you? Is it teeny? Temporary? Tiny? Yeah, TV tempos? So we started it when Yeah, we started it when I was little. And so when was that? 20. I think it started in 2019. And we did a bit of it before the pandemic. And then then we did it. We moved it online for a term. But it was one of those things that was just tough to do online. And then I could have gone back and started it face to face, but because of a lot of the restrictions, and the and just the risk assessments and all the cleaning and everything, I was just a bit overwhelmed. I was like, oh, you know, I'd be really stressed about under disinfect everything because I have to do that in teach with teaching in schools, but it's kind of with older kids, you can disinfect the stones you can disinfect everything I've touched, but with babies and children and putting things in their mouths and using the right cleaners and I was like Ah, there's just too much. So I thought I'll just wait until things have calmed down a little bit and find a way to make that work. So we're starting the face to face stuff, but that's really really nice and it's nice to help other parents use music as a way to communicate with their babies and be confident to do it as well because it's like you know so many people and but you find that being a vocalist as well, that we can all sing and We have different levels of as my dad always says Rosie likes to sing. Definitely doesn't mean that Gabby, I think, but I think what's really what everybody can and babies don't care about how, whether or not you're any good, they just love that sound and the connection. So, and sometimes it's just finding, it's just knowing what to do and how to do it. Give mums and dads the confidence, or grandparents or whoever it is the confidence to communicate with your baby through music and song because it just enhanced their development so much. And you know, into even intonations between words, there's some specific things that they can they latch on to, and tones of voice for positive and negative and things like that, which, once you know it, it's really nice for you to be able to use that and communicate with your baby. But a lot of it is confidence and parents not having the confidence to sing or not, not even knowing the nursery rhymes because it's been such a long time. You know, if you did it as a child, and if you don't have any other children in your family, you know, if you've not got siblings or children or cousins of children, your child could be the first one for a long time. And you just have no idea what any of these babies absorb. Yeah. Yeah, so that's really nice. Yeah, I work in childcare. That's my day job. I mainly work with what are they probably 18 months to two and a half, maybe nearly three year olds. thing I find, like, I don't care. I've been doing that job for nine years now. And I'll old and I don't sing properly. When I'm at work. I just you know, hey, you've got that proper singing voice and then you've got you this this when you sing Happy Birthday to someone in a group you just sing. You don't do your prophecy voice? You know what I mean? Yeah, I just I just crack on and sing the silly songs. And I think a lot of stuff for parents, I just get so embarrassed because they think you've got to be able to sing properly, to sing and so like, your kids just want to hear you sing like they don't they're not going to judge you. And they're not. They just and you're right. It's like the rhythms and like almost like, you know, when you read a really good book with the, like, the poetry the way, the like the rhythm of the words coming out like it just expanding on that and singing something or, you know, just I don't know, like, it's just this, this expansion of language and the kids love it so much, especially if you can throw into actions. That's always good. Yeah, I think I think parents just get embarrassed because they think, Oh, I can't do this. And who's watching me and, you know, it's yeah, it's like, Just do it. Yeah, enjoy the process. The end result doesn't matter. Yeah. And your kids just love it. They just they want to hear it. Thank you so much for being on the show. It's been a pleasure chatting to you, Rosie. It's been lovely. Thank you so much for having me, Alison. It's been lovely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Melissa Condo Francis Australian musician, singer, songwriter and educator S1 Ep13 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Melissa Condo Francis. Melissa is a singer/songwriter, collaborator, producer and performing arts teacher from Portland Victoria, and a mum of 3. Describing her genres as wide ranging as folk, electronica, jazz and alt pop, Melissa has performed as a duo, and soloist under the guise ‘ Sleuth ’, done international collaborations and released 4 albums as an independent artist, as well as producing and performing in an operetta. She talks about the way music has bonded their family, how she deals with criticism and finding 'your people', and the challenges of writing music with your significant other. **This episode contains discussions around mental health issues, loss of a parent and grief** Connect with Melissa on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sleuthmusic11/?hl=en Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Melissa's music used with permission Spotify Listen to all recent musical guests' tracks on this Spotify playlist When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Melissa Kondo France's Melissa is a singer, songwriter, collaborator, producer and a performing arts teacher from Portland, Victoria, and a mom of three, describing her genres as wide ranging as folk, electronica, jazz and old pop. Melissa has performed as a duo and a soloist under the guise of sleuth, she's done international collaborations and released four albums as an independent artist, as well as producing and performing in an operetta. On the episode she talks about the way music has gone to their family, how she deals with criticism, and finding your people and the challenges of writing music with your significant other. This episode contains discussions around mental health issues, loss of a parent and grief. Welcome, Melissa, it's great to have you on the podcast. Thanks for coming on today. Thanks for having me. So, for those who aren't familiar with your music and what you do, can you give us a rundown about the style of music you create and all that kind of thing? Yeah, so I perform and right under the artist name of sleuth, which is kind of a bit of a parody harkening back to my days in the police force, actually. But I did my music style would be eclectic, really. I've done everything from sort of folk music to electronica to hardstyle, drum and bass. What else would I have done, I've got a lot of jazz elements to quite a bit of my music, as well. And probably the more prolific music or this stuff that's been out there a little bit more than the other stuff that in the back catalogue, we'd be all pop. Yeah, it's yeah, it's really, really, I have actually been openly criticized for not picking a particular genre to stick with. But I actually like it. I do a lot of international collabs with different artists. And they're all from all sorts of different genres, which is great. So keeps it interesting. And it really pushes my creativity, I think, to be able to write two different styles. Hmm, keep keeping it keeping it really interesting. Yeah. How did you first get into music? I've, I can't remember a time when I haven't been a musician. I learned piano from age three. So sort of earliest memories. Piano from age three till about, I did formal lessons till I was about 1516 years old. And yeah, I just stuck with that, really, and a lot of music theory, had a fair amount of personal family stuff go on for about a decade after that, which meant that I was sort of not playing music or writing. And I never really, in that decade, pushed myself to do anything musically. And then just found myself in a sphere, I guess, after after meeting my husband, where I could pick it up again, which was great. So from about age 26 onwards, just re fostered that, that love of music again, and threw myself into it. guns blazing, wrote four albums, did a couple of reasonably reasonably local regional tours. And yeah, I was I was probably a bit old really to be. And I say that with a big smile on my face, because I don't believe in age, defining how creative you can be. But yeah, I was probably a little bit too old to be marketed that successfully to the current pop scene, but that's okay. It doesn't. It certainly didn't stop me doing what I was doing. And I guess I was very fortunate that I could write music as a hobby, which allowed me to be a lot more authentic with what I was writing rather than try and write to a contract. To feel obligated to push out the music. I just sort of got on a creative wave, wrote it as long as the wave lasted and fortunately Um, the right the wave sort of has subsided a little bit about probably the start of 2021. I stopped, I haven't, I haven't actually released anything of my own. Since then I've released collaborations with other artists, but I haven't. I haven't written anything since Lux was finished. That was my fourth album. So just having a bit of a rest at the moment and dealing with COVID and dealing with other other scenes. I think my life at the moment that are taking a little bit more of a forefront. School I have three children, I had three under four, which was insane. So they're currently aged 10, nine and six. So my daughter is 10 and my two sons, nearly nine and six and a half. And they are in grade four, three and one. So they're, especially with remote learning in Victoria because of lockdowns, it's pretty mentally consuming to try and get them through a school day at home. Yeah, they do. Amazingly, I think we, I was fortunate enough to be blessed with a very large, extended inlaw family. And so they've had a lot of one on one time, they've had a lot of reading, they've had a lot of the early groundwork done. So they're actually, I think, probably a dream, realistically, speaking up to homeschool, but it doesn't feel like that a lot. But yeah, I think they're, they're amazing. So where did the having the children fit in with doing your music, I think the probably the scene for me to be reviving my, my musical abilities and interest really happened when I met my husband. We've been married for 13 and a half years. And that love of music has never really left me but I sort of didn't have any space to really inject any any deliberate effort into it or any sort of passion. Obviously, a piano is not that easy to transport to various different rental properties and that sort of thing. So my, my family piano stayed with my dad. And I've only just last year got got the piano. But I've been playing on since and everything since my husband actually gifted me one. My kids I had sort of I started having children about two and a half years into being married. So my husband and I were writing mainly folk music together, and just playing very sort of small, intimate Restaurant and Bar gigs in the local music scene, which, incidentally, I found super hard to get into it. There's a lot of ego I think involved in particularly the regional music scenes in Victoria, I don't know if it's like that in the rest of the country. But yeah, the covers scene is alive and well. And certainly if you if you play covers, you can get gigs just about anywhere, if you're any good. But to play original music, it's really really hard to garner a local following. So that that probably was a factor I think in in it just being sort of more smaller, intimate stuff at first. And then I had my children wrote music at home around doing all of that. But I was lucky that I never really needed to have it as a career. So I've always had a wage from another sort of job, or alongside being a musician that I think I was fortunate as well that when I did invest money into the music, I was able to do it under a performing arts business, which was one of my side jobs. So a lot of my expenses were tax deductible. And I had a very clever accountant that knew how to make it work for me. So I was able and my husband was amazingly supportive as well, which was, which was really nice. I don't think many musicians have that level of acceptance of spending 1000s of dollars on musical equipment, so that you can record an album which of course no one's paying you to record either. So then to produce CDs then costs 1000s of dollars more, and then you're really just taking a punt on whether or not there'll be enough I often local support to buy those albums just to recover your costs. So I think I've been quite lucky. That one, I have the support from him. And then secondly, I was lucky enough to have won a couple of competitions, which funded the subsequent album that I was about to release. So I released my firt, my debut album, number anima, which was very favorably received, which blew my mind, I got a five star review from a julong music publication, then independent music magazine, which just did not expect that at all, I remember getting the email with a review and just bawling my eyes out in the kitchen because it had been 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of hours of work, unpaid, nearly, like, oftentimes causing a lot of marital tension because of the amount of focus and just sheer ignorance that I had of whatever else was going on in my family scene. Because I'm pretty singularly focused like that, I often shut things out. So I've had an amazing amount of support to allow me to do that for a period of time. So those albums, were partially funded by me winning competitions, which was nice. And then also the sales of CDs, which I don't recommend doing either. Like, I must admit, I have chosen a medium to produce albums, which is not really that financially viable, but I'm lucky that at least it's paid for itself. So as far as a hobby goes, it's not costing me any more money, which is nice. That sort of takes a bit of a strain off. But yeah, it certainly is a privilege that not many, not many musicians get to get to enjoy your children into music as well. Yeah, absolutely. They don't have a choice really. Sorry. I had, as I said, I had music lessons from age three. My kids have been learning piano from or how old were they? I think I started them at age six or seven on piano. So they all play piano and they all start read music. They all play a little bit of drums. My son Austin plays guitar and Zach is learning all those a bit little. Zara plays ukulele they write songs, my daughter actually wrote a couple of songs with a girlfriend, which is super cute. I think that she was eight at the time and her friend was nine. And they put it on YouTube. So because of course they're watching mum do these music videos at home and things like that. Because obviously, I don't have a marketing budget to spend 1000s of dollars on music videos. So I just do the home job variety. I had a rude wake up call the other day actually, on a complete side tangent, I put one of my we've just recently got a pretty nice TV at our house. It was my husband's tax return present to himself. And I put one of my YouTube clips up on the TV. And on a phone or a small laptop screen, you can't see various errors. And then you put it on a massive 76 inch television. And you can see all these little blotches on the screen where I haven't edited properly and all this sort of thing i Oh my God, that's just an amateur hour. So yeah, it's it's been interesting, but I mean, unfortunately I don't have to. I don't have to answer to anyone about my my home job music videos, which is nice. But yes, in answer to your question, getting back on topic, my kids are all very musical. And it's a great way of bonding I think, particularly with my husband and the boys. They play drums and they also play like basic guitar. So they we all swap over instruments. One of our we had a we built a music studio during the first big lockdown in Victoria in the downstairs part of our house and so we have a bass rig a drum kit thing, an electric guitar rig a couple of my since the piano, the interface for recording and a big PA system down there as well. And so we'll have that family band time a lot of the time down there and the boys will they love it. It's actually really good bonding for them with with their dad and I don't think they would have been able to do it quite so early. If it wasn't for them. Piano Lessons might be at the beginning, my husband was thought I was crazy for insisting that they do theoretical piano lessons from a young age because it was quite expensive. And so, and he just didn't see the value in it initially. And now a few years in when they're playing sight reading music themselves and learning blues riffs, with their left hand and being able to have show independence on the piano between their hands and play some really cool little little jams, which he can then put bass or guitar or drums to. It's yeah, it's quite a good bonding thing for him. And for them, as well. Oh, yeah. Do you find them that because they've learned piano? Because they know the basic skills? They can transfer that then into the other instruments? Yeah. For them? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Especially with with the drums. For Austin, he, he's quite gifted at drums. He's only eight years old, nearly nine. And he, he can play with a lot of independence between his feet and his hands. Which means that he can play quite complex drum beats, compared to basic sort of four on the floor, rock ACDC type sort of stuff, which is not criticizing it. It's a fundamental part of Australian music. And there's a reason why it's so successful and accessible as well. It's because it's just so simple. There's a lot of space in the music for everybody to ramp up the vibe when I listen to it, but he can actually do quite a lot of creative fills. And different. I'm not a drummer. So I don't know the correct word, but like different textures with different different types of drums, because of it, because of that independence. And that really transcends from from playing piano, especially blues piano. He's quite lucky. I wish I'd learnt blues piano rather than just classical. But that's where I can teach myself now I've been teaching myself drums, which is pretty exciting as well. So padded, it's great. It's very therapeutic, though. I hit that the other day. Actually, I did some interviews with some dads for like the Father's Day special. And one of the dads was like, yep, Jones is very therapeutic. Yeah, yeah. That was drinking wine, as well as the other thing I've been doing. I had a conversation about that, too. I think all of Australia is actually that that could be the way to get our economy back up and running. Apparently, we had all this wine that China wasn't buying a while ago. I'm sure it's getting put to very good use right now. We won't waste it that's for sure. Did the kids come along to gigs or some of the kids I suppose with the ages? Some of them have yeah, I've done like I said, I've done quite a lot of different types of gigs. So I've put together a few years ago, an opera ready. Operator actually, I think it's a so called deal was two events. I did one in Hamilton and one in Portland and one was called Baroque on the hill and Baroque by the bay. And that was in conjunction with Hamilton and Alexandra college. So I, I put together a performance with a student ensemble where a couple of their most gifted string students were able to join in I obviously had the the core of the ensemble with a professional musicians which were the teaching staff at Hamilton and Alexandra college. And I had a singing student of mine, Medline and Meister performed the soprano to Starbuck murder and I performed the Alto part. And so that was the the settings for those two performances were in churches, one in Hamilton, one in Portland. And so the kids were able to come to that, which was really quite special for me because obviously, there's a certain amount of discipline and rigor that is involved in performing a 45 minute opera. That, like, I just rehearse, I was obsessed with it. I was obsessed with most of my projects anyway, musically, but there was I think the kids knew every single note of the opera by the time by the time I actually performed it. They had had heard it being rehearsed every hour of every waking minute of every day. So you Yeah, they, it was good for them to see that performance get put together. And then there's been a couple of other performances that they've been out. And most of them, though, are in pubs and wine bars and things like that. So it's not really suitable for the kids to attend. And I think it's certainly, because we're not famous enough to have our own roadies to do all the gigs set up for us. gigs where we're having to stuff the car with all the PA gear and transport it means that there's no room for children in the car. So those gigs I've been very fortunate to have my inlaws out at, but my kids have certainly seen me on bigger stages like the foreshore, New Year's Eve and, and that sort of thing, where I've had a proper tech crew and that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, that's and they, I've talked to some parents whose children do that, do this. When you're stopped, your kids wouldn't be like that. And I think it's actually been, it's taken a long time for my daughter to decide that my music is actually okay. But there was a really special moment that I had, when my kids were doing swimming lessons at the local YMCA. And this is long time ago, right before the release of ombre anima, which was my debut album that I'd been obsessively working on the nine songs on that album. And so the kids had heard it all over the house, they'd had it in the car when I was dropping them off to school so that I could get an idea of what it sounded like on different speakers and all sorts of things. And they were very sick of it. And they were at the YMCA with school swimming lessons, and I had turned up with my laptop to sit on the side of the pool and do the good mum thing and watch my kids or pretend to watch my kids have swim lessons. And so I had my headphones in, and I had my laptop there and I was listening to music and rehashing different bars and that sort of thing to just see what what sort of mixing I'd need to adjust on it. Not an optimal mixing environment. I know. But I was. It was my first album, give me a break. And I had heard I heard over like it was so it's such a surreal moment. My kids were in the pool behind me. I was sitting was poolside and then all of a sudden on the PA system of the YMCA can blaring my song in the dark. And I didn't realize at first I was sick because I had headphones in and that was the song I was working on. I was like what's going on here. And I took my headphones out and I looked over and the local water aerobics class had chosen that song because they obviously knew I was there to do their water aerobics class. And so they just bled it at the top of their of their system through the YMCA and my kids borrow in particular was sitting in the pool doing a lesson and she's gone. That's my mom's song. And so I hear this this big, like all the water aerobics ladies started clapping me from the other side of the pool and then my daughter is gone. That's my mom's music. So I think she suddenly realized that it wasn't such an uncool thing to be like to write music and to actually have people listen to it. I think she finally realized that it was actually something that people enjoyed and that they appreciated. Even if she didn't Yeah, they often sing my stuff which is nice to hear to also realize that other people value what you're doing exactly yeah, that is the big that was the big moment but it was it was quite a special moment for me because I not only was it really quite surprising and confusing for me to have it not playing in my headphones and playing beside me. Yeah, to have just audiences from all like, in so many different ways in that moment. It was really nice. Quite a weird experience but yeah, that's the lesson story yeah I talk to all my guests about mom guilt and I put it in a quote. What how do you feel about mom guilt? I think it's very alive and well and prevalence. And I I guess I just had to decide that I didn't care about it. I have have actually had a lot of flack over the years for I think I got I got told at One point that I was handling my children to their dad. And yeah, so there was that comment. I think I've actually been pretty heavily criticized by other local museums as being ruthless and being overly competitive and quite a lot of other things. Because it seems like a lot of people, I guess that's not just a mum thing. That's also a an Australian thing. I think we dislike anybody that plays a big, we have to play small. Because otherwise we step on too many people's toes. And for me to sort of, and I really, it really graded with me, particularly that one, I think there was this idea that I was I was too old, or I was too, too aggressive, or I was too Ultra focused, and I needed to be sort of more. I needed to be more flexible on some things, which I actually didn't think I needed to be more flexible on because they were my standards. So I've had a lot of flack from that along the way. But I, as far as with parenting guilt and mum guilt. I think I've been amazingly lucky in that my husband not only understands music, so he had, he was a bit of a rock star before I met him. So he had been in bands for years. He plays everything. So he plays drums, bass guitar, sings writes music, and he reckons he can't play piano, but he can. He just doesn't play it as well as me. And so he considers that an abject failure because he's super competitive. But yeah, he I'm lucky that the two of us both being musicians value that highly so he could see the value in what I was doing. And I think I was kind of lucky that I could lord it over him a little bit in the beginning, because he, he had his Rockstar years when I first met him. And so that consisted of band practice two or three times a week, for hours, like come home at two in the morning. It was a bit of a boys club. They're great guys, but it was very much I was The Good Wife that just sort of let played second fiddle really to it. And I was pretty supportive, like I was I was very enthusiastic about his music, pushed his, but pushed him to really push himself with it was very supportive, most of the time of band prac. Because I had my own obsessions at the time I was writing to fitness and running and everything. So I just instead of playing music, I threw myself into that. Then we had babies. And of course I was the only way that I could really sort of have any time was with him musically, was to write softer, more folky sort of stuff that was just the two of us. So we, he, he was very present with all of that, although we we nearly ended up divorced a few times with writing music, because he's got very different writing style. To me, he's incredibly it's a, it's a good thing that we have those differences. But it took us probably about 10 years to work through it. He is very critical of everything that he does, to the point where he'll refine and refine and refine, whereas he can play a couple of notes to me, and I just see endless possibilities. And I roll with with my creative vision on it. And then he'll stop and start and go back and change. And it just pulls the rug. For me it feels like it pulls the rug out from under my feet when writing, but it's because he he doesn't have the same way of visualizing. And it was incredibly deflating to me over and over and over again, it was my fault because I didn't what was kind of that was anyone's fault. It was just a mismatch in how we wrote music together. And then when I started writing my own music, all of a sudden, we had this freedom where he would criticize what I wrote in a good way and I'll critique it, I should say, not criticize it. And I would take it on board and I would refine what I was writing and everything because it was my vision that I was working with. And because every now and then I would tell him to go shove is critiquing. And I didn't sort of compromise my what my vision for the song was. It took all the ego out of all the previous discussions and we're just suddenly like, I just I don't know, it was amazing. So he's very lucky that he's very supportive of my writing. He's not afraid to tell me if he thinks something should be made better, which is great, because a lot of my stuff on Lux is hugely involving of him. We've he's been very critical in a good way of what I've done. And then regarding the mum guilt thing. Occasionally he will be critical of how much time I have spent focusing on music instead of a family. But yeah, he's he's pretty good. With all of it. I think most of the time the criticism comes from other family members or other museums, really, that sort of don't handle my day directness, I think in my singularity of focus, which I think it is a bad thing sometimes, I think, my blinkers on with my family for a while, it definitely couldn't have endured forever. But I think I've been very lucky that I've been allowed to have a season where my dad just let me ride the creative. Talking about how you caught flack from people that had your style, I suppose. And your decisions, when you got that feedback? Does that drive you and make you? Yeah, yeah. So one of my songs on my debut album, ombre anima is entirely written because of that. It's called empty room. And I think it was, it was written in direct response to two people, I'm not going to name them because I don't think it's very nice of me. But basically, a big fu to some people that had criticize the way that I taught my performing art students, people that criticize the way that I was so uncompromising on certain things. And they, they actually saw that as a real character flaw rather than a positive thing as far as being disciplined and staying the course towards what you actually were trying to achieve. I think there are dreams where it does become a bad thing. But I don't think like I look at what I've achieved with, with, with my performing art students, and also with my music for such a, like, I've never had a grant paid to me, I've never had any sort of funding support from a label or anything like that. And I've still produced four albums, and been nominated for awards and won some awards and that sort of thing. So I think, I think considering all of that, I think I've done what I needed to do to do that. And I don't think that I've lost anything along the way, despite obviously upsetting a few people here and there that felt a bit threatened by it. Yeah, so that song that definitely inspires me to write, I wrote empty room about that, I think, would have lyrics to that song, there's little things I do, giving up of me, just to prove to you that there's somehow sunlight breaking through. So in other words, that whole verse is about me trying to prove to someone that I was a nice person inside. And giving up on what I actually wanted to do and needed to do in order just to prove to them that I was a nice person. And I just went nuts, I'm actually done with that, like, it feels like I'm living in a cage, screw all of you, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna do what I need to do. And it took me I actually needed to work through it, it took probably a couple of days of being really, really like almost on the point of breakdown, I think I was really low from it, because I really felt like it was a I took it, I took it on board too much at first, and I believed them. At first I didn't instead of actually going hang on a minute, what's your motivation for having a crack at me? Instead of doing that I actually took on board what they said way too much. And then I think I think I just came to the realization that those people aren't my people. They don't get it. They don't support drive and ambition and the pursuit of making something the best that it can possibly be. And they don't take feedback very well either. Interestingly, so yeah. Yeah, so yeah, that that was where that comes from that Yeah, certainly I have been inspired by that. That's what I need. Maybe I need someone to help me and then I've run another. The other big thing that I like to explore is entity so and I'll put in air quotes again being more than just a mom, you're still listening. You're still musician. Louisa, you you have children, but you You're really strong on on maintaining your own see outside of being a mother? Yeah, definitely. I think that comes through in the themes of what I write as well, I. Yeah, my, a lot of what I've written is sort of autobiographical. Which is not to say that it's all about falling in love and having your heart broken, and that sort of thing, which is fine. Like those are, those are significant moments for a lot of people. And there's a reason why those sorts of songs resonate with so many people. But my music is often inspired by either just what I'm going through in the moment. So an example of that would be vinyl scratch on my album lacks where I was mucking around with some jazz stuff. And was really interested in just making a song entirely composed of jazz chords. And so I started mucking around with that, and I had a flashback of, because we're in lockdown, and we couldn't go anywhere. And it just sort of seemed like time was just dissolving in front of us. I wrote, I wrote about how music was timeless in that respect, like when you listen to music, you stop worrying about how long the song goes for or, or what you've what you've got going on. And so that was what vinyl scratch was about. So it's not necessarily a theme of, of a tragedy or whatever. But by contrast, as well, there's another song that I wrote, wrote on Lux, which was probably the biggest song I've ever written, maybe that's the reason why I'm not writing a lot now. It's called umbilicus. And that was probably the most autobiographical song I've ever done. It was about the death of my own mother. But in a way, the lead up to her death, as well. She had she had brain cancer. And so she was quite, quite ill for years prior to dying. And it was a very confusing time for me and my sister as teenagers trying to navigate being told that it was just us and it was just our attitude problems. And it was just, you know, what the reason we were finding life so hard was because we were teenagers. And it wasn't because we had someone who was mentally unstable, and entirely unpredictable and quite a difficult person to be around. It wasn't anything to do with that, like the outside world couldn't really didn't know a lot of what was going on. And so yeah, that was it's quite a painful song. It's called umbilicus. And so it's really about that connection between babies and mothers. And I think it's taken, it's taken me I'm 39 now it's a it took me 38 years to really be able to articulate what, what happened. Because it's not just about mom dying when I was 20. It's also to do with my identity because my my own biological father died when I was five weeks old. And so my whole life I've had questions. I found out about that when I was 11. And it kind of just erased 11 years of childhood identity for me when I found out my stepdad is an amazing man. And he was a great dad to me. He's a great dad to me still, but it was my identity that really just took a massive hit. When I learned I learned to have that And then of course mum, in the years after that was very confusing to be around. Yeah, so I think having children of my own in particular has informed a lot will have what happened with mum has informed a lot of the way that I parent with my kids, I'm unfortunately very much like my own mother. In a in a lot of firm ways with my kids I hear I hear her voice coming out of me when I tell them off with various things. And I think I have much less of a sense of humor these days, which is very much like my mum, I think she would just would have been so bloody tired. That that's where that lack of sense of humor comes along. Like my husband plays a lot better with my children than I do. Which I look at and I go, yep, that's my mum, to a tee. But yeah, that a lot of the negative things I went through with mum definitely inform the way that I parent, my kids, I've sort of don't ever want my kids to feel confused about who they are and who I am and, and what, what I really think I think my mum often toed the conservative line a lot of the time, just because that was what the neighbors would want her to do. And I don't think I'm like that at all. So those those little retaliations against, against what I've been through, I guess, coming out, and umbilicus is is a lot about, about that I sort of felt like there was a large level of deception going on, not because Mum was a liar. But because cancer and brain cancer turned her into someone that she wasn't. And she did lie when she was really ill, she would make up things and then remember things differently to how they actually happened and all sorts of really confusing stuff. And then try and tell you that you were wrong, because you're only 15? And don't answer back and that sort of thing. So it was it was a really, it was it was probably the most difficult thing that I've been through. And that comes out in that song. Do you children come out in new songs as well. That'd be quite a confronting thing to have to think about. Actually, I don't know that they do a lot. Yeah. Probably because my kids are a huge source of joy. For me. And they are, they are a joint project, I guess as well between me and my husband. And music for me is quite a selfish pursuit. So maybe I don't write them into my songs. For that reason. I certainly dedicate all the albums to them, because they have to listen to them in the car, when we're driving them to school. As I'm, as I'm writing albums, I have to listen to them over and over and over again, then they've certainly been exposed to them a lot that way. But yeah, I don't think I don't think I so much write my children into my songs. But I I am the person that I am. As the as a songwriter and an author lyrically, particularly in response to my to who I am as a mum and who my kids are. There's, there's a song I wrote called Boy Who Cried Wolf, which is quite a partly a political song. And it was written as part of the me to movement, when all these women were suddenly coming out and saying that they had been sexually assaulted or oppressed or prejudiced against because of not putting out or they've just been subjected to sexual abuse in their careers. And had we're now speaking up and I wrote that song, partly as being inspired by that movement, but also also probably as a as what I hope for my daughter, as well. I probably doesn't come across that personally in the song, but it's certainly like, I hope that my daughter never actually apologizes for who she is, and never never just submits because of who someone else is. I don't Yeah, I don't know if it comes across that personally in the song but yeah, but certainly I am I had hair in my mind when I was writing a lot of the time Jesus see graphs I'd love to write more, more jazz pieces I've been listening to. I'm sort of in that in that calm behind the wave of creativity at the moment where I'm listening to other people's music a lot. And vocally, I think there are some areas where I still need to build a bit of strength in my voice, which Yeah, I've been I've been pushing it certainly singing, singing different techniques and different types of music. So I'm really kind of focusing on all of that. So there might be some more cover. Cover work done, I think, if I can, if I can ever play again. But yeah, that maybe, maybe some more, I'll pop style music. I think I've been listening to a lot of Hayley Williams lately, just because she's got such an epic voice and trying to improve a bit of brightness at the top end of my voice, just listening to her and singing along with her stuff. And my husband has been very accommodating and playing a few few of her songs acoustically. So we've been wiling away a bit of the time, musically that way. I haven't hopped on the piano for a few weeks now, other than to play some classical stuff. I've just wanting to focus a bit on my tech, my technique. So I've been playing a bit of Mozart and a bit of yeah, there's some classical stuff. Just to try and get my speed up again. Is my fingers are actually for a pianist. I've got quite arthritic fingers. But yeah, it's alright. We'll improve again with a bit of practice. It's so lovely to see you. Thank you, sir. Likewise, I appreciate it. Thank you, given my kids an hour break from home school, which is nice as well. So yeah, they need it. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman dotnet

Dani Venn Australian host, presenter and Masterchef star S2 Ep45 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify and Google Podcasts I am very excited to welcome Dani Venn to the podcast this week. Dani is a Melbourne based cook, lover of all things food and mum to Harlow (7) and Oscar (4). As a self-taught cook, Dani loves nothing more than spending time in the kitchen with her kids, preparing nourishing meals using fresh, wholesome ingredients. Dani is most widely known for her time on MasterChef Australia ; as a finalist in 2011, All Stars in 2012 and contestant on MasterChef: Back to Win in 2020. Her cooking talents have taken her across the world, from live food events, to hosting foodie retreats in places like Bali and Sri Lanka, as well cooking for events of all sizes, from intimate dinner parties to 400 people in Mumbai! After being awarded her immunity pin for winning dish “Taste Of Sri Lanka” on the first episode of MasterChef Back To Win, Dani also released a collaborative range of Sri Lankan inspired simmer sauces with Coles Supermarkets and currently has two flavours on the shelf inspired by her travels and one of her favourite places on earth. Recently Dani has launched her first podcast, Falling For You , a podcast about getting comfortable in your own skin where Dani interviews inspiring guests that have changed their life. Falling For You reached #1 in education on Apple Podcasts and Season One has consistently ranked in the top 20 podcasts on education and self-improvement in Australia and New Zealand. Dani is a regular guest cooking live on air with her kids on Studio 10 and has been a cooking guest on Everyday Gourmet and Farm to Fork . Dani has also hosted her own TV show Weekend Feast (10) and hosted summer radio on Nova FM Melbourne. Currently you can catch Dani on the insta live show, Undercooked Overseasoned, where she and Conor Curran catch up and chat about the latest Masterchef Australia episodes. Dani is also proud to be an Ambassador for the Royal Flying Doctors. Today we chat about Dani's adventures on Masterchef, the joys of feeding our children and how becoming a mother changed her approach to not only food but to how she approached +business. ________________________ Dani website / instagram / facebook / podcast Podcast website / instagram Music on today's episode from Australian trio Alemjo is used with permission. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to welcome to the podcast Danny van Danny van is a Melbourne based Cook, lover of all things food and mum to Harlow and Oscar. As a self taught cook Danny loves nothing more than spending time in the kitchen with her kids preparing nourishing meals using fresh wholesome ingredients. Danny is most widely known for her time on MasterChef Australia as a finalist in 2011, the old stars in 2012 and on Master Chef back to win in 2020. Her cooking talents have taken her across the world from live food events to hosting foodie retreats in places like Bali and Sri Lanka, as well as cooking for events of all sizes from intimate dinner parties to 400 people in Mumbai, India, after being awarded her immunity pin winning dish taste of Sri Lanka on the first episode of Master Chef back to when Danny also released a collaborative range of Sri Lankan inspired cinema sources with Coles supermarkets, and currently has two flavors on the shelf inspired by her travels, and one of her favorite places on earth. Danny recently just launched her first podcast falling for you. A podcast about getting comfortable in your own skin where Danny interviews inspiring guests that have changed their lives. Danny is a regular guest cooking live on air with her kids on studio 10 and has been cooking guest on everyday Gourmet and farm to fork. Danny has also hosted her own TV show we can feast on channel 10 and hosted summer radio on Nova FM in Melbourne. Today, we chat about Danny's adventures on Master Chef, the joys of feeding our children and how becoming a mother changed her approach to not only food, but to how she approached her business music on today's episode is from Australian trio. Lm Joe. And he's used with permission. I hope you enjoy. Hello. Hello. How's it going? Thank you. How are you? Yeah, really good. Thanks. It's so lovely to meet you. And to have you here. Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me. So it's very nice to be interviewed on a podcast and and being the you're in the driver's seat be in the past. actually interviewed a lady yesterday, he ran her own podcast as well. And she said the same thing. It's like she can just enjoy and next thing, so oh my gosh, yeah. So most people would know you from Master Chef. But before we sort of talk about anything like that, can you share with us? Where did your love from cooking come from initially? Well, I always have loved eating and I feel like to be a good cook, you have to be a good eater. And I was never the kid that went to a restaurant and ordered nuggets and chips or the same thing. I'd always be interested in ordering something a little more exotic, something that I perhaps hadn't tried before, much to the dismay of my parents, I guess because they had to pay more for a meal. I'm always really supportive of that. And I think my mom loved cooking. still does. And when I was a kid, she went off to cooking classes with I don't know if you remember Elizabeth Chang, but she was one Yeah, one of the first sort of celebrity chefs. So she went to her house and learn how to cook Chinese food. She'd come back with all of these exotic recipes. And we would you know, we would cook them. Mom's pantry was full of exotic ingredients. I mean, exotic for the 90s You know, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. You know, black vinegar or something like that, which is kind of stead these days but and so I grew up with mum really being a little bit more adventurous than your average, suburban cook. And so I just loved. I loved eating, I think I think I just get so much joy from tasting new flavors and trying new techniques. And I think what I love about food is that there is net. I think what I love about food is that you there is you can never know everything. There's always room to learn, especially when it comes to different countries, cuisines, and always learning about food and cooking. So yeah, yeah. So where did your mum's sort of adventurousness come from was she sort of just that kind of woman that she was just really keen to learn? Or was there any sort of like cultural background that sort of drove here? Yeah, um, my mom's dad actually, is, I always get this wrong. I shouldn't know this. Half, half Chinese. Yeah. So his family actually came from China back when Chinese people came to Australia during the Gold Rush period. So it was sort of the mid 1800s. And I think that my mom's love of food came from that wanting that connection to her cultural heritage, even though it went back quite a few generations. And my great great grandfather would have assimilated quite quickly to Australian culture, he married into an Irish, an Irish woman. But food was always a constant in their family. As well, they had a stall at the Queen Victoria Market. They had a Chinese restaurant. And even though my mom's dad passed away when she was really, really young, and never really knew him, I think it was her way to connect to her father, and that Chinese background plus it's just a little bit more exciting than meeting through veg. Oh, you said your your story of going out for dinner with your family sounds the exact opposite to mine, because I was so afraid of eating different foods. I'm sure I sent my mom crazy, because all I wanted was at that time I ate meat. So I had sausages and chips. Literally. That's all I'd have. And I remember one time going to this restaurant, and they didn't have sausages on the menu. And I started crying because I didn't know what else I was gonna eat. And eventually, they dug around in the freezer, and they found me something. It's like, oh, so it was now completely different, thank goodness, but oh my gosh, it was often the way kids don't want to eat veggies or they don't want to eat anything exciting when they're little but then when they get up get older and they start cooking for themselves. Their palate changes completely. And I know a friend of mine who was on MasterChef was exactly the same. She didn't eat any any veg didn't eat anything. And I feel like as a parent, you're freaked out because you're like, Oh, I'm not a good job. But now she's she's a kitchen garden teacher. She's obviously been a master chef. She loves food and cooking. So you know, there is hope for us parents if your kids very much when they do Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of people that can relate to that. Listening to this. It is it's such a stressful being and you think oh my god, what am I doing to them? Before you went on MasterChef was cooking like a part of your job or your career or was it just something I don't say just because it's not just but something you did as a hobby, just a passion sort of thing? Yeah, it's really weird that I never even had any interest in say doing. I think it was called. What was it called at you at school, or like Homeric or something? Homeric. I never had an interest of doing homework or anything like that when I was at high school. And I didn't think of hospitality as a career, or cooking even when I was at uni, because I studied media communication. And even though I worked in restaurants, it wasn't until I actually had my first job out of uni. And I was working at Circus Oz actually, which is modern Australian performance circus. And I started just getting really obsessed with cooking Vietnamese food, because I had lived in Vietnam when I had first left school. And I just got really obsessed with trying new recipes and really following recipes to a tee which is not something I do anymore. But I was just interested in like, not mastering cuisine, because you can never do that. But just really just get nailing those flavor combinations, and understanding how Vietnamese people cook. So that was kind of the first thing that I was like, and I just just Hey, more alarming, I think because I spent so much time on, like taste.com. And I was reading recipes and I was supposed to be working. And I think it was when you know when you're younger and you have like a dream job, and my dream job was to work at the Malthouse Theatre, which I have sort of a driver background at school and things like that I love performance. And that was kind of like the ultimate place that I could work at. And I got a job at the Malthouse theatre. And I was in the publicity team, which I didn't know, at the time, I was really excited. But then when I actually got into the role, I was like, This is not what I expected. It wasn't very challenging for me. And I also was just like, I loved the theater, and I loved the team. But it just didn't feel right. And that's when I sort of saw the applications for Master Chef and I thought this could be something and at the time, I was considering even doing a chef apprenticeship. But I wasn't it was kind of like two forks in the road. Do I do a chef apprenticeship? Or do I stay here in this job that I thought was gonna be amazing with doesn't really feel right, or do I, you know, take the plunge and apply for mastership? Hmm. And I don't want to say the rest is history, because there's a lot of things that happened in there. But that was the start of it. Yeah, I was. And I did actually get offered some apprenticeships, some chef apprenticeships at really great restaurants that I still love today. And it was funny, because I remember thinking, I want to do this, I remember being offered $10 an hour, and I've been working a few years, so wasn't used to getting paid $10 an hour. And then I feel like I love talking too much. And in a kitchen, you have to really be kind of quiet. It's very regimented. And you have to put your head down and work. People liken it to sort of an army, some kitchens, because it is like everyone has a specific role. And I'm not sure if it suited my personality, as well. I love the creativity around cooking. And when you're a part of a team and a kitchen often you're assigned just one part of a dish rather than creating a whole dish for instance. Oh, Master Chef, what's seem to me more of an exciting adventure, which is kind of how I make most of my decisions in the game so fun, yeah. Say you said that you were following recipes like to the tee at that point. When you go on like a show like that? Do you have to like learn and remember so much stuff? Because you're thrown in the deep end? And then does that challenge you? When you when they open up that mystery box? And you're like, oh, what like it? Is that really a confronting thing? Like challenges the way that you like to work? Oh, yes. I mean, I, being a master chef is honestly the most scary thing ever. And I think the first time I went on, which was 2011, I was a really recipe based Cook, and I crammed as much information as I could remembering recipes and ratios. And then now I am very much more of a go by feel based Cook, which doesn't necessarily work with when you're a master chef. Because you have to know how to, especially with dessert, you have to remember how to make things properly. And and I'm not really a precise cook, I can never make a really great pastry chef. But when you open up that mystery box, do you know what it's, it's not so much the mystery box of ingredients because I do that every night when I open the fridge and cook my kids you know, it's more the fact that you're on masters. And especially when I was on back to win and you take a look around the room, and you're like you're against some of the best cooks in the country and people that have you know, written recipe books, they've hosted television shows, they have incredible restaurants, they're they're the best at what they do. And then you're standing there for me personally and I was like, I think the whole impact of that and the lights and the cameras and it's a it's a really stressful situation. So you think oh yeah, I'm gonna make dumplings and then you go sit in standing next to pole which you're probably much better at me than that. Oh, make a cake. it Oh, Reynolds standing there, you know? So it's very, I think that that was so extreme that situation. But I like to cook like that I love getting a box of veggies or for instance and going okay, cool. Well I can make something was a Kenyan can make something with that and following my intuition I think is more important for me than following a recipe. But I did start with following recipe. Yeah, it's like getting that grounding, that sort of basics, like you said, the ratios and understanding of the flavor combinations, and then you can go right, and then you let that creativity coming up. Yeah, that's right. I feel like once you've got the nuts and bolts of how cooking as a science works, you can then play around with, with obviously, flavor, accommodations and all sorts of things. But, you know, I'm a mom at the end of the day, and a lot of my cooking is so boring. Like, you know, I've, I've got my kids. So my husband and I separate my ex husband and I separated a few years ago, so I've got nights where I cook for the kids and I've got nights where I cook for myself or sometimes I cook for my boyfriend or friends. And it's so amazing the difference when you cook like and I like the kids complain about every single thing I cook I Yeah. Even like what's for dinner? I don't even know chickens do ever I yak like, absolutely instant reaction. And I'm like, thanks. Just try it first. And then you know, they're actually good eaters. But that instant reaction is a Yeah, so it's so nice when actually do get a little bit of time to be a bit more creative and cook for someone that actually appreciate rather than just cooking with beef. But you know what, I think what you just said that is so reassuring for I don't want to call anyone an ordinary mum, because we're all amazing, but you've been on Master Chef and your children still have that mentality. It's like you can't change children. That's just how they are. So no, that's 100 say unless it's like, what's something that they'll always say? Yes. Oh, like spaghetti carbonara always yes, but I try not to make that all the time. So the most nutritious meal pork crackling Absolutely. But you know, yeah, nine times out of 10 I'm still getting I'm still getting shut down. But with all my meals. Oh, that's cool, isn't it? So you've got you've got two children Harlow and Oscar. They seem like very fun children like you incorporate them on your social media and things like that. Yeah, tell us a little bit more about about your kids. Oh, they are very fun. And so funny, I think especially asked, isn't that very cute age, he's just turned four. So everything that comes out of his mouth is kind of funny and very cute. He still hasn't really mastered the whole language thing, which is fine. He's only Justin four. And then Harlow, she's seven and just shooting up before my very eyes. I honestly think she'll be taller than me in a few years. She's super. Just just so wonderful in that she. It's so nice to see her go back to school and really flourish this year. I mean, Melbourne. So we've had basically her first two years of school being taken away from her. So it's really nice that say her getting into that flow of school and making new friends and all of that. So both of them are very outgoing. I would say they're both extroverted personality and just interested in the world, which is lovely hollows, especially. She's got a very kind, caring environmental conscious conscience. I'm very bad at pronouncing words. And Oscar's just ridiculously energetic wants to give everything a go and very loud, very loud. But yeah, they're great. And life with them has been here so different. And we've had so many changes over the last few years. And it's sometimes you get worried because it's like, oh my gosh, so much has been thrown at our young kids, not only with the pandemic, but with like our personal situation as well and but they come at, you know, stronger and they also are so resilient. And they're such good kids. So I'm very lucky Yeah, that's awesome. I work in childcare. It's my day job. And I think I think parents, like adults are constantly being surprised by children how resilient, resilient that they are and how adaptable they are. And I think sometimes we don't give them enough credit that they're actually good better at coping at some things than what we were stocking our ways. And they're very much more flexible. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? I can go with the flow and not have this whole big head full of stuff. They're just concentrating on what's happening right in front of them. Well, that's right. That's right, Oscar, especially because he's that bit younger. He's just he lives in the moment right now. So he doesn't understand when I say all in you know, a few days time we're going to do this. He's like, No, I want to do it now. Right now? Because, like, why wouldn't you want to do it right now? Oh, that's a cool, little D. Since you left Master Chef, give us a bit of a rundown of all the exciting things that you've been able to do and create and Oh, yeah. It's such a big question. It's been, I think it's just your 10, almost 11 years or something. Something like that so long. I feel like when I finished master chef, and my whole attitude, when I was first on master chef was like, a constant surprise, like, surprise that I got through the next challenge surprise that I've, you know, made it to the last week on the show, surprise, once I finished that people wanted to work with me. And it was just like, oh, my gosh, I could actually make a career out of this, you know, and it's not, you know, I was in my mid 20s At the time, and I was like, oh, you know, I could get do something out of this situation. It's always a bit of a surprise. But it doesn't come without pushing yourself and hard work, I guess with, you know, creating relationships with people as well. So my life has changed so much since, you know, being on the show the first time when it comes to those really big exciting things. I've done. Talent, lots of television presenting. So that's been really fun. We've got a new project in the pipeline as well for later on this year. Again, just like pinch me that these things are still happening. I've done breakfast radio, which has been which was really fun. That was that was quite a while ago now. But that was definitely something that I loved. And I would still love to do radio. I I've done lots of traveling like overseas, working with people like in India, for instance, they wanted me to come over and do a massive event over there. So that was amazing. Lots of traveling myself, I do retreats. So I've done retreats in Bali and Sri Lanka. Now now with COVID I'm doing the more in Australia. I Gosh, events just throughout the country cooking, like live cooking events, all of these amazing fun things. And and since being on the show the second time around, which was in 2020 collaborated with Cole's producing the Danny van sama source range, which has been really great. And then I've done lots of, I guess, during the pandemic, it's changed from a lot of live events and lots of traveling to more online. So that's probably why like, I guess like Instagram has become so important for work. Our marketing teams are now doing a lot more online content. So that's really fun, because I do have a media communications, you know, branding background, so to be able to use those skills for my own personal brand has been really great. And then I've done the boring stuff as well like boring stuff that actually when I look back on was amazing. I loved which was like just cooking in kitchens, launching I've helped launch people's restaurants I've worked in like an organic whole food, food delivery service just in the kitchen cooking. That was one of the first jobs I did when I after I had Harlow because I just needed to get out of the house and it was only I've only worked there for like three or four months but I still put it down to was one of the best jobs I've had I liked it. You know, so many different things. And things keep coming and I think that's a result of me knocking on people's doors making connections and building relationships over a period of 10 years. Yeah, that's the thing. It's not like an instant HIGO have all this stuff in the world that you've ever trained with second, you actually have to do the work. Yeah. And I still every year, I'm like, I think I do enjoy, you know, plotting my urine, writing down goals and all of those things. And yes, sometimes I write the same thing every year, because it's okay. But yeah, it's, it's a work in progress. And you just never take anything for granted. And I also never, I think, after working for myself for so long, I never. If something comes along with opportunity, I never get too excited about it. Because again, a lot of things come to you, but not a lot of things get pulled off. So over the years, there's been so many exciting things that I'm like, oh, yeah, we could do this. We could do this. We could do this. But you know, everything has to align for certain projects to actually happens. For sure. Yeah. So when you're going through and looking at your goals, like over the period of time, how did you How was your thinking changing when you became a mum? Yeah, I think having Harlow changed my life so much. And the way I think about work and everything, I think, not only did it influence my food, but it also influenced my business. So I guess before having Harlow I cooked like any normal cook does with traditional ingredients. And then when I had Harlow, it sort of, I had an opportunity to feed a human from scratch. And I think lots of new parents are like alright, well what do we feed this child. So it really sparked my interest in more whole foods and Whole Foods being just less processed foods. So I went down for many, many years, I became really so intrigued with just creating more alternative recipes. It was kind of when you know, raw food was even like a thing. And then gluten free. And all of these allergies that people had developed over other lifetime or born with I was really interested in creating recipes that helped people and help people feel better. And I still very much am. And to me, I felt like it was a whole new set of ingredients where my creativity flourished, because it was just a different way of approaching things. So how can you make something tastes happy and make a cake tastes good when it's dairy and gluten free and still have a great texture. So I was really, I just became really fascinated with those ingredients. And then I would obviously use it was guinea pig as well. Which which actually didn't turn out great at one point because she ended up having a cashew nut Island. And a lot of my food that I was making was cashew bass, because that's what happens when you make a lot of robes and change the way that I cooked. And now I feel like I'm a lot more relaxed, especially after the pandemic. I still use like traditional ingredients, but I mix it up like I think some of the stuff that my body rotates, I would never given up. But I think everyone's just relaxed for the last few years. Yeah, and also, I guess, with business. I think, um, I think it was, I think I think I changed because I realized I had a human that I needed to be recycled had to be responsible for. And when Harlow was younger, there was a certain point where my ex husband and I like temporarily broke up and I remember thinking, shit, I've got like a five month old. I think it was around that time. And I need to be financially responsible enough for myself to be able to fend for myself and also hurt. So it really motivated me to start. I actually started consulting business when she was about one. And I had this drive inside of me that I feel like I just didn't want to be one of those parents, which I mean it's hard because everyone's situation is different, but I just didn't want to be in a situation where I had to be in a relationship because financially I couldn't afford not to be and I kind of Yeah, I feel like that was a really big thought whether it was real or imagined or whatever, but it was just there. So we got back together soon after and everything was fine for quite a few years. But I Still was like, had that thing I was like, I've got a I've got a mum, I need to be able to be responsible and financially independent as well. So that changed. Yeah, for sure. Because yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? Like you say, it's not just you anymore, you've got this other little person. And maybe if it was just you, you'd go, Oh, I'll make it work. I'll you know, do this and that, but it's like, oh, no, I've got this other person, I've really got to, yeah, I started taking business a lot more seriously. And I started being like, you know, kind of get my shit together. I can as a freelancer for so many years, just going from one job to the next. And, you know, I think like, it changed. I was like, No, I want to make a proper company. I want to have proper clients, I want to set myself up like a proper business. And so I learned a lot more and in that, and I also did a lot more self development stuff as well, which I think happens when you get a little bit older. I'm actually finding that a lot of people I talk to, I'm glad it's not just me, it's like this point in your life and you see things differently. I don't know. It's an incredible thing. My bookshelves are lined with all sorts of self help books. I love them. I love. My one that I read last night was about. I did not do the thing today about productivity. And yeah, yeah, I just find all of these books. Interesting. Even if they potentially don't even relate to me. I just I love hearing other perspective, people's perspectives on life and business and psychology and human behavior and all of that. Yeah, me too. It's really fascinating, isn't it? It's cool. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. You mentioned your Instagram, which I'm really glad you did. Because your Instagram if anyone listening has not looked at Danny's Instagram, please go look at it because it's so vibrant and so fun and just so uplifting. And that's interesting. You say you've sort of had that background in drama, because you're very good actress. Thank you. There's a lot of fun on your Instagram. I do enjoy making those little videos. It's quite funny. And yeah, drama is one of those things that as like, at high school, I flipped like loved that was like my life I wanted to do that as a living. And when I sort of got out of school I was like maybe I'm not I don't know, you doubt yourself but I but I loved that spin in me so you really have all of these different elements V passions that you're actually able to sort of combine in what you're doing now you've got your cooking you've got your your acting and your you've got like your your background in promotions and publicists that you can do with your your social media. So it's really like I bet you didn't have that on your on your goals. Let's just it sort of happened that way. Yeah, it's amazing. What Yeah, how I guess your life experiences then go on to form you and your life and what you're doing work and I'm very lucky that I have been able to Yeah, follow my passions and and I think make money from it as well, which is really important. And even now I'm like, alright, well, what's my next thing? And I did, I started a podcast last year, which was really, again, something I was scared. But something I love, I love talking on on the microphone, and I love audios and medium, but it kind of scared me a little bit as well to do that. So I am interviewing someone which I think you're doing a great job, by the way. But interviewing people is kind of scary as well. So, you know, I'm always trying to think alright, what is it that I want to do? And how can I? How can I use my skills to to to create a new project? So yeah, it's always vulnerable with I have an overactive brain. It's ridiculous. Like I do regret from one thing to the next to the next and, you know, ADHD videos on Tiktok are really making me consider going to a psychologist Oh, thank goodness you are doing what you're doing because it's it's awesome. I think a lot of people are really enjoying and relating to what you're putting out there. So yeah, keep it keep doing it. So day to day, have you sort of managed to juggle I guess, between trying to create what you want to do? Maybe if you have like a business you you're working with or whatever you're doing, how do you manage to do that with the children around as well? Yeah, good question. I don't know if you're allowed to say this. But ever since separating and co parenting, I feel like, I've been able to do a lot more. And that's because I have a amicable, amicable relationship with my ex partner, and we should split the time and the kids 5050. So being able to have my own time, which I don't think I had in my previous relationship, as much like I really didn't, I felt like I was the primary care of the kids. But ever since having my own time, I've feel like I've been able to manage, work and be able to do things like work on my own creative projects a lot more. And it's funny, because when I do have the kids, it's like, it's everything's a massive juggle, you know, obviously, with co curricular stuff as well as parenting and still having to do bits and pieces of work, I find I don't work a normal nine to five job, I'll find myself you know, what, people would think I'm just looking at Instagram something but I'm not I'm usually working at nighttime at, you know, eight o'clock, editing a video, for instance, on my phone, or I work in, in between hours when I perhaps don't have the kids or other things like that. So, yeah, it's it's, it's I don't know how a lot of people who have their kids full time as well as work full time, it's really, really tough to find your own time. But yeah, I guess that's one of the silver linings are separating, not saying that you should go and do it, saying that, like me and my work like it has been able, I have been able to just have more time for myself on my projects, which is, which is great. But at the same time, you're dealing with a whole lot of other emotions. But, um, I guess people don't really talk about the positive sides of separating, but that's kind of why I was saying, Oh, I'm not allowed to say this. But I guess when you do work for yourself, you take what you can in terms of when you've got time. Yeah, for sure. In whatever way that might present itself. Yes, thank you grateful for Yeah. So when you first had your children, when you first had Harlow How did the way that you view yourself changed like this identity? A lot of moms talk about having, you know, like they were themselves and now they only exist for their child and they feel like they lose themselves or that kind of stuff. Did you sort of have experiences like that? I feel like most people go through an identity crisis when you become a mom because you sort of mourn the loss of your former self, which was someone that for me, it was someone that was pretty independent could do we wanted all of that stuff that everyone knows what it's like and you don't have kids. And I think yeah, there's definitely, especially that first year. There's, you just don't know what you're doing. It's kind of like when you start a podcast. You just try and do what you think is right. That's it. And I had an amazing I lived out in the country when I had Harlow and I lived abandoned towards Yarra Valley in the Nillumbik hills and on a 20 acre Bush block with no neighbors in sight and in a hut that honestly was like an old miner's cottage with a dirt floor. I'm not even kidding, like, dead for wattle and daub. It was a beautiful home. I loved it, but it was very different to a normal suburban house, which is where I am now and it was and it was bushy and there's snakes and there was like, my whole environment was so different to a normal I guess like just a normal person. I found this amazing can be Yeah, they're through mother's group of other women that were kind of, we call ourselves like pining women because we were out out on the farm you know, I had to light the fires just to keep warm all of those things that now I just turned the heater on. But I like your life was so different. And I I was, I had already lived out there for a while. So I was used to not being around a lot of people. And not being able to say for instance, just go into the city and stuff like that. But yeah, life was really different. And I felt like I love those years, though, like I look back now. And I'm like, they were really beautiful and really special. I had an amazing group of women that I'm still friends with. I love going out that way because it's really relaxing and quiet. But yeah, my identity, I felt like completely changed. But I feel like I've had multiple identity shapes since then. I think I reclaimed myself. Again. I've never been the type of mom that only lives vicariously through children and children's activities. Although I feel like when Harlow was really young, I was more like that. Now, obviously, life so different, like I have my kids 50% of the time, which is still hard to say. And like I've, I go and do adult things like and like my former self, like, I've got nights of the week where I'm able to go out for dinner if I want to or you know, I've got a boyfriend, which is really like different. And so like, it's really, I'm still a mum, though, and I'm still in my children's life as much as I was before, I'm probably a better mum for it. Because when I do have the kids like, we always make the most of that time. And I've thankfully I still see the kids often when you know it's Christmas night or something like that as well. So we actually see each other quite a lot. But yeah, like identity is a funny one and you lose it for a while. But I also think that you get it back the other thing I like to really talk to mums about is the concept of mum guilt. And I sometimes put that in the air quotes. Is that something that you've sort of experienced or you have thoughts about in relation to your creativity in your work? Yeah, I think there's definitely mom guilt in all, in everyday life. Especially when the kids a little and you know, you want to be there with your kids all the time. Like I remember dropping off Harlow to daycare when I was doing that job I was talking about earlier going and chopping veggies and making these organic meals for people. I felt so bad about doing that. Like, I like when I got there. You know, I felt good, I was able to just go into a job that I didn't really have to think about too much. And it made me feel good. But God I felt bad about just dropping off at daycare and picking her up late, early, late. And I feel like Yeah, it's like, do we carry this guilt? Like, why do we carry this guilt? I don't know if fathers are carrying as much guilt. I don't know. I don't know. I don't like Yeah, it's hard. But I feel like I do I have less guilt now. I would say so. I think I've, I've think I've tried to accept that, you know, things are as they are. I'm still my own person. My kids are their person. We're all just trying to do our best. But yeah, there's still guilt around, I think during the pandemic as well. Like, we had to stop doing the things that we were doing. No, you had no control over that. Like for instance, like co curricular activities and things like that. So maybe I lost a little bit of the guilt around doing so much with the kids. Yeah, yeah, like during the pandemic. Now, I've you know, I I guess I want them to experience lots of different things and find their things that they like to do but yeah, probably not putting as much pressure on myself. Yeah, for sure. So with your creativity and being out there and doing doing what you do, is it important for you that your children say, and I don't want to say not just a mom, because we're never just remember that you've actually got your own life, you're doing things you're contributing to the world, you've got an important place. I always think that a lot, actually, because my kids say, Me, I bought my own house late last year, I do try to do everything around the house, although don't look at my loans at the moment. But they see me as someone that works for themselves that, you know, does everything for themselves, takes them to the things they want to do. And I think they might not realize that now. But I feel like especially Harlow being female, when she gets older, is like, well, I can I can do that as well. And I think I think people often as well, maybe stay in a relationship for the kids. And I think that's kind of I find that to be problematic for some people for some things and because are they saying really happy version of their parents in some situations? But my kids are seeing Yeah, definitely a times at times, it's stressful, and you've got to do you know, all the nighttime routines yourself. And that can be hard. But they're also saying someone that is really happy, and is trying to give them the best life and for themselves as well. And also they say me as an independent person from them. And I think that's important. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love that answer. I'm gonna put a big tick next to that. I like that That's good. night you said before you've got some projects in the pipeline, is there anything? I don't want you to feel like you have to tell things that you you know, you're not ready to? Have you got some some stuff coming up in the future that you can share with a severe? Yeah. Well, as I was saying, before I get excited about things. And then I try not to. Sometimes I don't have it. There is a project hopefully, I'm sure. Yes. I'm gonna say yes, it will go ahead. But yeah, it hasn't been completely psyched up. Yeah, a television program that we're working on with my manager and the team that my manager works with. So that will hopefully be later on the year on channel 10, which is great. My podcast, which is falling for you. And it's an interview based series interviewing was just women. But now it's everyone about people's lives and becoming more comfortable in your own skin. And that's really exciting. I love that. And I started another podcast with my friend last year, may or may not do that. We're not sure yet. But I love podcasting. I think like once you've got a microphone and you set up like I do, like you can well droid stuff. So I probably would love to do more in audio and potentially like a Yeah, either podcasting or something like radio or something like that. That would be amazing. Now the retreat that is also brewing for later on in the year. I usually take only one retreat a year, and it's usually is always actually in an amazing location in a beautiful accommodation. And it's kind of like a great mix between adventure, wellness, amazing food, and just like a really fun time. It's not too hard core health or anything like that. We still do Santa cocktails, you know, it's got to be balanced. There's got to be a balance. And yeah, I feel like this year I've approached it a little bit differently rather than putting too much pressure on myself with goals because we've all been in survival mode for so long. I'm sort of saying what happens and unfolds around me rather than she's stuff too much. But already this is becoming Yeah, it's it's been a year, I think the last month or so a really big one. I think that's what happens when school goes back all of a sudden, easy again. Yeah. But yeah, there's always there's always exciting projects on the horizon. And yeah, we'll just see what happens, but ya never know. Yeah. Well, that's the thing, isn't it? It's like you don't seem to, you're very sort of open to any sort of possibility. It's like you don't shut yourself off from things. So. Yeah, that's a really great way to live your life. Yeah, I think it's funny reading that productivity book because it's like, rather than trying to over schedule yourself, it's like trying to be more open and flexible. And I think that's what how I approach my days. It's like, I don't know sometimes what's going to happen, which is what I like about my life. On a day to day basis, though, I don't have it planned out to a tee I've got, you know, I kind of like to see what happens and what comes up and what I end up doing. And I like that approach. But yeah, it's certainly not everyone's approach. It's probably a few people out there that are getting feeling really uncomfortable listening to that. Checklist and Midori? Yeah, no, but whatever works works. It's the truth isn't everyone's different. And we just do what works. Yeah, that's right yeah. It was important to you that you got back to doing things for yourself. Like you said, when how I was? I think she was she fought high. How old? Was she when you started doing the chopping up? So no, she was she was actually quite young, she would have been about 10 months or 10 months a year. So was that was that because you want to? You needed? Like you said before you needed something for yourself. It was like, that was really important for you to get back out and be Danny again, I suppose. Yeah, I think I definitely I think I do not want to do something that actually involved that much thinking, if that makes sense. Because you're so tired. And I think when you first have a new baby, it's like I was anyway, I was exhausted. And I didn't want to do too much like I just wanted to be told what to do. Which is quite, that's not usually what my jobs are. I have obviously a lot more creative than that. But I at this for this job, I just wanted to get out of the house. And I wanted to talk to adults again. And got beat just go somewhere and do something for the day that didn't really involve too much thinking. Like it wasn't overly stressful. It was it was very sort of a monotonous job where I went and we prepped a whole lot of food. But I was still having these really engaging conversations. Because the women that I worked with in the kitchen were all and still are some of my most favorite people. And we keep in contact and it was just like, it was not glamorous at all. We were in this weird, like factory and spring Vale or something I don't know, it was a bizarre place. It was nowhere near my house. I had to leave my kid at daycare for too long, but I wanted to the pay probably wasn't great. But it was more for me as well, to know that you know that you can still be your own person and you can still go and do something that makes you feel good about yourself that you're being productive. And I was learning I learned quite a lot about Whole Foods then as well. That was when I was really interested in that. And that so he kind of set me up for other things. I then started a blog about Whole Foods after that because that's when we used to do blogs. And I started writing recipes for Whole Foods and then all of a sudden I started working with Melrose health which I still work with today who you know, I've been working with Microsoft, Melrose health I then went on to launch you know, that brand in Japan and I cooked dinner in China and I like we did all these amazing things. And that just started because I went and worked at a factory in Springvale, because I was interested in Whole Foods, like any job or any anything that you want to do for yourself is going to be bad. And you just don't know what's going to happen from it. And you never, never think you're too good for something as well. Like, I'm always like, you know, these jobs that are, you know, not glamorous as such. Like, they're actually also and you meet amazing people. And I find, I think it was a really formative part of my life, just being able to go, yeah, it's okay. I can go to daycare, I can do this job. And if you know, your partner or someone turns around and goes, Well, why would you do that for it's going to cost more to do daycare, tell them to get by? Because I hate also that that's that, that thinking around daycare fees being only for women to pay? Like what? No, no, it's just all right. Yeah. All right, back yourself and do if you feel like you really need to do something for yourself, go and do it and do what you can to get the support around you. And if and tried to let go of that guilt. Hmm. Yeah. Well said. That's a fantastic note to end on. Danny, thank you so much. Okay. It's such all talking to you. You. It's so nice. It's actually nice to Yeah, as we were saying before this interview started to not be in the driver's seat and just overshare which is what I'm really good at. Yeah, do jump over to Instagram, if you do want to follow me because at Danny, Ben, I do love to connect with people. I'm always DME We're always having like these little DM chats. And you know, I've got a great, I think it's like great community of, of women, mainly that sort of that follow me and I love creating content that makes people laugh and helps people in some small ways. Yeah. And it's very relatable to like, it's, I don't know, it's like, people might put people on pedestals and think that people are not real. You know what I mean? Like, you're, you're a mum, and you've got two kids, and you've got to cook for every night. You know, it's like, it's the realities that we're all going through, like opening that fridge and going, Ah, what's the mystery rocks, gonna return that sort of thing. Thanks for sharing what you share in such an honest way. It's really valuable. Thank you. Yeah, I do have this little thing on my coffee machine. And I read it like every day, and it's, I'm doing the best I can. And I feel like that's all we can do. And we can just try. And some days, we might not feel very good, but we're all just trying to get along and doing doing what we can. We are all just humans at the end. So absolutely, now Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Season 1 Special Season 1 recap Special Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts A look back at my guests during Season 1 and a reflection on the origins of the podcast. The seeds for this podcast were sown early in 2021 when I had a lot of time on my hands, and more than the usual number of children in my home. I was finding it really challenging to create the ideal space which I needed to be able to make my music. Realising that I needed a little bit of a shift in my perceptions, and perhaps a little help, I decided to reach out to an artistic mum who was a friend of mine and find out just how she was doing it. From them I thought, I wonder if other mums would like to hear how other mums are doing it ! Thus the podcast was born. I have thoroughly enjoyed my chats with creative mum, and a few dads too, over the course of these past 6 months. I have found it incredibly interesting and insightful, having learned so many new things about topics that I would never have learned about, and meeting some amazing people too. And I have managed to change my perception and shift my thinking on a number of issues, and I hope this has been the same for you. Here’s a little wrap up of some of my favourite quotes from the episodes which made up Season 1, 2021 I hope you enjoy. Connect with the podcast here https://www.instagram.com/artofbeingamum_podcast/ Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to this special episode of The Art of Being a mom, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make that art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia, I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. The seeds for this podcast was sown early in 2021. When I had a lot of time on my hands, and more than the usual number of children in my home, I was finding it really challenging to create the ideal space which I needed to be able to make my music. Realizing that I needed a little bit of a shift in my perceptions, and perhaps a little help, I decided to reach out to an artistic mom who was a friend of mine, and find out just how she was doing it. And from then I thought, I wonder if other mums would like to hear how they're doing it. And also what other mums are doing. Thus, the podcast was born. I have thoroughly enjoyed my chats with creative mums, and a few dads too. Over the course of these past six months, I have found it incredibly interesting and insightful, having learned so many new things, about topics that I would never have learned about, and meeting some amazing people too. And I have managed to change my perceptions, and shift my thinking on a number of issues. And I hope this has been the same for you. Here's a little wrap up of some of my favorite quotes from the episodes that made up season 120 21 I hope you enjoy. What's interesting to me with hindsight, perhaps is that we'd hit this sort of point where our mothers had been the first generation of the second wave feminists. And so we'd been told a lot about what our expectations for our life could be, you know, what, that we could have it all, you know, all of those messages that that we were getting, and the sense of freedom and ambition that we all have, and should have. And then suddenly we have children and realize how compromised that can be. And that that is an age old problem and not really an easy problem to solve. So feminism or for you know, no matter how liberated you are. So the fact is we we love our children, and we want to be there for them. And our children love us and I desperately attached to us. And therefore finding space and time for something that we want to do for ourselves is incredibly difficult. Yeah, I don't know, I just it wasn't for me, not the newborn thing. I've loved their ages now, but would literally prefer to walk the depths of hell than have a newborn again. I'm not even kidding. Yeah, you can. I'd also think it's part of modeling, modeling behaviors around the things that you're passionate about. I think it's good if they can see that. Those things are priorities in our lives, that don't take away from their experiences. But in addition to that, it shows them how to care for that part of their life, the artists that they are. So yeah, I think it's important that the kids see that and see how that can happen if I really, really had felt that guilty, when I stopped doing what I was doing, deep down, I knew that what I was doing was giving me purpose and lining me up from within. And you know that old cliche making me a better mother. Deep down, I know that whenever things whenever I had a right to feel guilty whenever it really was affecting my children. I changed I let go of it. I moved away from it, I let it go every single time. So I kind of feel like you know I need with the time that I've got especially now I'm working full time. I need to be spending more time with my children now while they're young. Making sure I have that connection. But my husband always you know, he's really good. He'll go away. They love you. You know, they really love you. Remember when you weren't feeling well, and they were all worried about you. You know, they really love you don't worry. So my husband tries to sort of, you know, say no, don't worry, don't stress ratio are you here ratio me? Yeah Facebook keeps reminded me of my what my life used to be before Saturday nights at shadows or little adventures I used to do back in the day you know is a total lifetime ago for me. Yeah, and I guess when you do become a mom, you have to let go of that life. Yeah. You your your life comes second to your kids law. Development and their their health and well being is above above yours Yeah. But you do have to keep it leveled enough that you are your best self where you're at can't be can't be distant. You can't be unwell. You've got to be that for therefore them which I guess I've learned from the past that are needed for my kids first to get out of that for them. Yeah. Have you feel that mum guilt? Oh, it is real is definitely I observe it a lot with stuff. People around me say about others to like, Oh, she's doing his job. I was like, maybe she needs to do that. Like, I used to probably be the same in thinking that and it's taught me a lot that that might be her hour that she needs just to feel like a human and be a better mom. So it's been a lot lots of work to pick up on your own. Like, where you're being critical of others, where you like, oh, that's maybe I'm envious of that. Or, you know, I don't really know her story, but it's because they're like, We can't do anything. So you can spend too much time with kids and not and not do anything for yourself. I can spend too much on yourself and nothing for your kids like it's it's a losing battle the same time my writing have changed? Definitely. Yeah. I have a collection of songs I have a new body of work that I'm I've started recording. And it's it's very much inspired by motherhood and and relationships with my own mother and, and grief and, and yeah, identity and belonging and home. And I don't think I would have explored those themes. Pre children. I don't I don't pray children. My songs weren't all about love and breakups. You know, a number that were and then under that still I you know, but I don't think I would have been inspired to explore those really personal relationships, family relationships, had I not experienced that enlarging of your family, you know? To me, being a mum is the best thing I have ever done. It is just the biggest blessing. And I'm always it's always in the back of my head, that they're only this little months, like they're growing so fast. And it might not be everyone's cup of tea or how they want to do things. But I have just loved being there and doing that. I think. Yeah, I mean, I'd have 100 kids if I could. I'm not 100 Actually that that would. Yeah, maybe 90. If you were talking to me about an experience that you'd had, like, let's say, you were finding it hard, giving yourself time to do something. My advice to you would be Alson you're still the person you were before you had a baby. Get out there, you know, you need to spend some time on yourself. So I can give some great advice. But so I would like to say that I don't believe in mom guilt. But I've experienced it. So I think it's definitely it's there. I still have moments, even today where I feel like I could be doing better. I should be making a different decision. I think it's I think it's incredibly real. I think it would be great if it wasn't but I think we would be kidding ourselves if we said that it wasn't a real thing. Because yeah, I have felt it. I've probably even been in a category of martyrdom martyrdom. Is that what they call it? Where Yeah, yeah. Are you just real? sacrifice yourself, for somebody else. And yeah, it's really interesting because like, I've had an understanding prior to having jack of how important it is to look after yourself and to put yourself first and to know that that's actually not being. It's not being selfish. It's like, probably the purest form of self love, is to be able to put yourself before somebody else. But then falling into motherhood and, yeah, it's just a real, like, it just, it up ends that belief. And I think, for me, it probably just, it just happened. Like it was just, I think, a change of lifestyle, knowing that I had a little baby that was like, 100% reliant on me. And I felt I just sacrificed myself. I imagine for women, especially having kids, it's so important to nurture those kids, and you seem to be putting everything into the children, I know, from seeing it firsthand, through my wife that she puts everything into our kids and your wonder like, now I've you know, she's focused on going back to studying more nursing and, and, and that's something that she's passionate about, she loves, so we make time to fit her, you know, things that she needs to do to into into her life, if you don't have an outlet somewhere or a passion, and you've got nowhere to you know, to do it, and it builds up and you know, probably can end up being the falling down of your marriage because you just got no outlet and you feel like you're locked up with the children and just having this double life that you you know, that just ends up crashing around around you. If it doesn't have you don't have an outlet. And you know what, I had this conversation with Dan, the husband. And he said to me, Chanel, some people just don't get to he's he's seen the rise and fall, he's seen me get these opportunities, and then me crying a heat when they have just not gone the way I thought they should have at the time. And he said, some people just don't get to do their dream lobby, like and I and I, for me that didn't sit well. Because I was like, No, I'm going to because I need to do it for myself, what are we going to set up so I can see I'm having this premonition of me being 50 or 60 years of age, and kicking myself for not trying at least. So I said, he said, the kids, you're an amazing mum, the kids love you so much. And they will be proud of you if you just worked in a cafe or whatever. And I said, but I'm not proud of me. Because you can work in a cafe, absolutely, if that's what you want to do. But it wasn't what was in my soul to do. And I said, they need to see their mom chasing the path that is right for her, and then encouraging them to do the same thing. Because they're learning from me, don't just stand still, because it's easy to do. So. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, if it was easy, everyone would do it. It's something that women need to sort of let go of, and allow themselves to look at it in a way that if I'm doing something for myself, I'm bettering myself so that I can be better for my children. So if I have an art show, and you know, I gotta, you know, my husband has to put the kids to bed and they don't get me seeing them to sleep or whatever it's like, my kid is, is growing from that experience. They're not, it's not losing me for one night, and they're not going to be traumatized by that. I mean, they're learning to be adaptable. And they're learning that, yes, your mother has her own life and, and when you grow up and have kids, you're gonna have your own life too. And I think it sets an example for my daughter, that you don't have to give up your entire life and you don't have to martyr yourself constantly, that you actually deserve to have a life on your own and it's gonna make you a better mom. I didn't feel guilty about going to work because I knew in my mind that without all this external pressure and whatever else to be a perfect mum, because that wasn't around. You know, you just did the best record that I needed to go back to work for my own sanity. And I did not feel guilty about that. So that was it when Harry was 10 months old. I'm not a maternal person. I'll be the first to say I'm not a I'm not a A person who's in an apron baking a cake, breastfeeding their child at the oven. Like I am not that person. I work I thrive off work, I thrive off intellectual stimulation. Just being a man is not enough for me. So never once did I feel guilty to for going to work and making that decision back then. I mean, being a parent in general, but especially being a mom does not stop you from being an amazing musician and amazing artists and amazing teacher, whatever it is that you do. It's another thing in your life that is very, very important. And yes, your priorities change. But it doesn't stop you being amazing at what you do in that moment. And I've had people kind of, you know, second guests that I've had people be like, oh, so Oh, you're back at gigs. Oh, really? That's, that's soon? Oh, that's interesting. And you know what I just say to them, I'm like, why wouldn't I be? Actually, I think you'll find I'm playing better than I was beforehand, so that the mother guilt of putting yourself, you know, at head of your children, sometimes, I've definitely grown learned over time not to have that quite so much. I think as the kids were younger I did, but especially that like when my youngest son in high school, I was like, No, you know, what, I'm okay, I deserve to have some allocated time. And to actually let the whole family know, right? Well, this is actually something that's really important to me, and I'm going to make this happen. And it was actually really nice to see the support that they gave me to write Yeah, really, even my, my middle boyfriend, he would say, he was actually said to me, I'll be really inspiring me with the work that you're doing. And, you know, that's the biggest thing for me ever. And my husband's really supportive, as well just, you know, constantly telling me that he's proud of me, which is really lovely. That definitely helps with not feeling guilty. If I, you know, had some space and time through the week to, to focus on my artwork and to be quiet in the studio, then absolutely, that reflects in the way that I am with, with my kids in the sense that I think it helps me to be more present. When I am with them, I'm not so much thinking about that. It allows me time and space, I guess, to really focus on them. So I think they shifted from thinking that they all these different things take away from each other, but they don't they all support each other and work together. Like I said, as part of an integrated life. So that's been a big shift for me, and, and being able to shift my thinking around there. And I think it's helped me manage my expectations. I guess I have myself. And then when I found out it was twins, it was like, all the anxiety kicked in. Because I felt like, well hang on. What does that mean, for me returning to work can I return to I won't be able to return to work, you know. And then you have all the stress about how my, how's my body going to change with two it was, I felt great with one baby and I was happy with being pregnant. But then once I found out it was twins, it did really slow me and I had to really adjust to getting excited about it and not being too anxious. So I'm very lucky that I had twins. And I think that now and I love their bond and I love being a twin mom. But I didn't you know, I didn't initially I really I feel bad that I think that but I really was upset and I was really anxious. So I had pretty bad anxiety when I was pregnant actually, once I found out I think it's also about making a space for yourself. Like making art, or even just making stuff has just always been a way for me to take space for myself even as a child. You know, and I think that's just become more and more important. As an adult when you've got more responsibilities and have to divide your time more. It becomes more challenging, but then also probably more important to do as an absolutely it's like mental health you know, and it's and it's so connected with looking yeah looking after yourself. And so for me it's very much part of my identity I think when you have children you like if you're if you're a committed parent if you are completely into the next few years being, you know, in a state of creative upheaval If you commit to that, then you know it. It changes it changes everything. You know, you can't it's not possible to to have those those sort of positive relationships without making sacrifices. How do you feel about mom guilt? I think it's very alive and well and prevalence. And I, I guess I just had to decide that I didn't care about it. I have, have actually had a lot of flack. Over the years for I think I got, I got told at one point that I was handling my children to their dad. And yeah, so there was that comment? I think I've actually been pretty heavily criticized by other local museums as being ruthless and being overly competitive and quite a lot of other things. Because it seems like a lot of people, I guess, that's not just a mum thing. That's also a an Australian thing. I think we dislike anybody that plays a big, I had had an identity, I was a health care worker. And then I became a mom, and then I wasn't that anymore. And so you know, people would be like, Oh, what do you do? And I'd be like, Oh, I'm a stay at home mom. And so they would automatically say, oh, then okay, what is your husband do? Which I'm just like, it just felt terrible. To me. It felt terrible to me. I went through an identity crisis, really where I was just like, What am I besides a mom, like, it didn't feel good to me, I felt really, really lost during that kind of transition, because I didn't really know. And like, just, I mean, I'm not saying that, like, just being a mom isn't enough. But for me, it didn't. It just didn't. I just felt lost. You know. So yeah, I mean, it is really important to me to feel like I have something that is just mine. I spend a lot of time when I'm rehearsing and performing actually away from families. So that's easier for that in that regard for to be able to kind of just concentrate on, on the show that I'm doing with a foreign when now that I'm doing a bit more work here in that Gambia at home, and it's actually really tricky. When you when you work go to work during the day, and then you have to come home and can try and switch it off. So that's a real struggle for me, because I've kind of had and realized it was a bit of a luxury to be able to just get in that bubble. And, and kind of create and then not have to come home and parent that yeah, the really tricky part is trying to combine the two and pay. You know, I have huge admiration for you know, a lot of my working actor friends in Adelaide that have to do that all the time. organically, disclaim all that stuff is so much different for the mother. It's just this just the ladies thing for fathers, it does change. But nowhere near as much as a mother is going through all that sort of identity is just trying to separate motherhood, you can get lost in the water murky. But it's definitely very important to have those two separate because I think you're just running yourself silly and you lose maybe a lot of that passion that you might have wither away a little bit. Because you just feel like that you've got to put family as a priority. And then this is exhausting and draining. It's easy to just go in there. One day I'll get there but I think if you can find the time to even if it's a little bit just to separate them and educate that individuality neutrality variable. It's not just that monkey. It's like, it's the wife guilt. It's the brain guilt. It's the WHEN DO WE it's very hard to make time for everybody. I think now I think more so it's important for me to realize that not to think of it as mum guilt anymore, but, but realize that I think they need to have a better version of mum. And if Mum needs to be in that creative space, then they're gonna get a better version of me.

Dana Stephensen Senior Dancer with the Australian Ballet S2 Ep39 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Dana Stephensen, Senior Artist with the Australian Ballet Company and a mother of 3 children, including twin girls, At the age of three Dana began her dance training with Davidia Lind in jazz, tap, ballet and singing in her hometown of Brisbane. She later trained with Mary Heath and Sandra Ashley before studying with the Queensland Dance School of Excellence in 2001, obtaining her Royal Academy of Dance Solo Seal. Dana joined The Australian Ballet School in 2002. In her graduating year she was seconded to The Australian Ballet to perform in various seasons before joining the company full-time in 2005. She has since enjoyed international tours to Los Angeles, New York, UK, Auckland, Shanghai, Tokyo, and Paris. At the end of 2008, Dana was awarded the Khitercs Hirai Scholarship, which enabled her to gain invaluable experience training with numerous ballet companies in Europe. Dana was promoted to coryphée (a leading dancer in a corps) in 2010 and went on to win the Telstra Ballet Dancer Award later that year. She was promoted to soloist in 2014 and to senior artist in 2018. In 2020 Dana took what she thought was to be her final dance with the company, at that stage 11 weeks pregnant with her twin girls with fiancé Lachy Gillespie AKA the Purple Wiggle . Today Dana shares her story of her experience with post natal depression and anxiety, and how she used her ballet as therapy to aid in her recovery. I also indulge my own curiosity of the ballet world so we talk a lot about ballet! **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and anxiety** Read more about Dana and follow her on instagram Dana would love you to visit : www.cope.com.au www.panda.com.au www.gigetfoundation.org.au Upcoming Australian ballet Shows Read and listen to the part of Swan Lake I was trying to describe Read the Sydney Morning Herald article Read about Wayne McGregor and Dyad 1929 Podcast - instagram / website Music used in this episode is in the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright, and is taken from the ballets Swan Lake, Peter and the Wolf, The Nutcracker and Giselle. Photo by Jeff Busby of Dana performing in the ballet The Sleeping Beauty. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me. I'm thrilled to welcome to the podcast today. Danna Stevenson, Donna is a senior artist with the Australian ballet and a mother of three children including twin girls. At the age of three, Diana began her dance training with de Vidya land in jazz tap ballet and singing in her hometown of Brisbane. She later trained with Mary Heath and Sandra Ashley, before studying with the Queensland dance school of excellence in 2001, obtaining her Royal Academy of Dance solo seal, Donna joined the Australian ballet school in 2002. In her graduating year, she was seconded to the Australian ballet to perform in various seasons before joining the company full time in 2005. Since that time, she's enjoyed international tours to Los Angeles, New York, the UK, Auckland, Shanghai, Tokyo and Paris. At the end of 2008 Danna was awarded the catex HiRISE Scholarship, which enabled her to gain invaluable experience training with numerous ballet companies in Europe. Donna was promoted to Cara fee, a leading dancer in a core and went on to win the Telstra ballet dancer award later that year. She was promoted to soloist in 2014, and two senior artists in 2018. In 2020, Donna took what she thought was to be her final dance with the company at that stage 11 weeks pregnant with her twin girls with her fiance, Locky Gillespie, also known as the purple wiggle. Today Diana shares her story and her experience with postnatal depression and anxiety and how she used her ballet as therapy to aid in her recovery. I also indulge my own curiosity of the ballet world. So we talk a lot about ballet and music. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression and anxiety. The music used in this episode is in the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright, and is taken from the ballets of Swan Lake, Peter in the wolf, the Nutcracker. And Giselle, I hope you enjoy. Welcome, Donna, thank you so much. It's lovely to have you today. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to have a chat. Yeah, for sure. So you're a senior artist, you've obviously been dancing ballet for quite a while. Can you tell us how you first got started? I started dancing when I was three. So my earliest memories really are of me being a dancer, obviously a little bit different to what I am now. But I think it is quite interesting that that's kind of where memory kind of starts to form for children, here and there. And so my earliest memories are of dancing. So I actually started because my sister was dancing at the time. She's two years older than me. And she had started a general jazz class at the local dance school with some school friends. Because she was really shy, really, really shy like hiding behind mom shy. So it was a way of kind of getting her into something social and something to bring her out a bit. Yes, it was parent watching week that week, and I went with mum. And I was sitting at the back and I just started, I just stood up and started joining in the class. And then they were doing cartwheels. And I just was all a part of it, basically. And the teacher came over to mom and said, Oh, I think this little one probably wants to have a go, you know, come around to the little little East class and other day. And I think it just started like that. And then quite quickly, I started the Stanford team. I was there five days a week, and then six days like, by that before I started school, probably a bit more. It was like, more is more. I just danced all the time. I was at school or I dance that was that was how it was. Yeah, right. So it was literally your sister got you into it, which is really cool. My sister got me into singing, like formal singing, like because she joined. And I wanted to do it too. So that's a really cool, so it's your sister older. Now she's younger. And I think that's why I wanted to do it. Because it was like, well, she gets to draw, I should be doing it. Because yeah, I mean, I think it's a little bit ironic because my sister started doing a jazz class. And I started with that. And then I started taking ballet and tap, and then all the different, all the different things. And my sister stuck with that one jazz class a week until maybe she was 10. She would, she would get so worked up before it and we didn't know this until she was older that she would get so sick to her stomach about going to dancing because it was such a big deal for her to have people looking at her. And meanwhile, her little sister was just you know, couldn't get enough of it. Interestingly, Brie my sister Bree, she would have done so well in ballet. Yeah, I was very much metrical one. And then I found ballet to be my path a lot later. Whereas my sister, she would have actually loved ballet. And she says that now I wish I'd just done ballet, not jazz, because that's all out there. And yeah, a bit chunky. Whereas ballet, she's she actually would have loved the discipline. And the, you know, the teacher sets the exercise. And you do that, and it's a bit quieter? Not not so much like, like jazz hands in the spotlight kind of thing. Yeah. So then how did you get into the ballet side of things? Was it just something you were offered? And, and then you sort of just thought, I love this so much. I'm just gonna go with it. Yeah, it's quite interesting, because I think as a child, I am sure this is the case. For most children. I just love dancing. I didn't really, obviously there were the dance styles. But I didn't differentiate between what each one was, I just loved the whole thing. And then once I started doing istead, fits and being on stage and the lights and the feeling of that, and taking on a different character, it was all one in the same. Obviously, there's different elements to each sort of style, but I just loved all of it. So it wasn't until I was a teenager, and every time that musicals would come to Brisbane, I'm from Brisbane. So you know, once he went fame would calm or Chicago or whatever it was, we'd go and but also every time the Australian ballet would come, you know, on the Saturday matinee mum would take me to that. And that was a big event of the year too. So it all just kind of was coinciding, and I had no preference whatsoever, until as a teenager, you do start to need to take a bit more of a structured path if you are going to follow ballet, but my school at the time did video in Dance Center where I went when I was three, she she had never had a ballet dancer. So that needed more ballet training as a teenager because no one had kind of got that fire in their belly exams at the time. So I actually had to find some teachers externally to help me. And then I was an interstate associate with the Australian Ballet School, which is in Melbourne, which is the school that does feed into the Australian ballet company. And so that meant I could come down for a week, every year to do like a winter school. And when they came to Brisbane, we do a master class, but it was still just happening bubbling along. But then the audition came to do for the first level five year which is about 15. At the Australian Ballet School, the senior school is level six, seven and eight. That's like your finishing training. But they're just started a level five and that was half ballet half school. And so I auditioned for that and was very hopeful about getting in and I didn't get in. And I was really really disappointed. And I couldn't have said it at the time. But I think that was a really big catalyst in thinking I obviously really want to do this. It's not happening right now. And I, I think I really, I want that to be happening. So the next year, I went to a school in Brisbane called the Queensland at school of excellence, which was, again, half Valley High School, but a version of that in Brisbane, and auditioned again for the Australian ballet school the next year. Yep. And got in the next year, and then did my three years and then got into the company. Yeah, so yeah, that moment, it's like, the level of disappointment you felt made you sort of realize i, this is how much I want this. This is it's almost like, it's not great that you didn't get in, but it's almost like you needed that to confirm it for you to make you go right, I'm gonna go for this really, this is what I want to do. So I think so it was an probably a strong indication to that I needed to probably blinkers on a little bit. And just focus a bit more on that. Having said that, I was I loved my high school, and I loved my school friends. And I, I think that's something you know, I've always had, I have always kind of needed to have a balanced sort of life. I was never like a Betty bonehead. And I'm still not. But at the same time, I think I needed to probably think, Okay, well, if this is what you want to do, there's a few steps that need to be taken. And so I took those steps and worked really hard and I was very lucky to get in that next time. So then what what sort of direction did you Korea take from then after that, getting in there. So they strain bicycles, three years and then. So your final year, you start to do a lot more performing. And very fortunately, at the time, the company who's in the same building, so it's really special at the school, because you can't just walk down the corridor, and like, put your little face at the windows, and you see the company dancing and rehearsing and all your idols and like it's, you know, coming from Brisbane, and coming down into this world. It was so scary, overwhelming, amazing, exciting, just all of those things. And then to, to think and dream about getting to the other end of the corridor and getting into those company rooms one day. But yeah, at the time, when I was in my last year at the school, that company had, we're doing lots of different seasons, but there was quite a few injuries. So they needed some extra dancers. And at that time, they often seconded dancers from the school to go join that company. So they had a couple of us learn a particular ballet symphony and see, and then the next night I was on, basically, Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was like a baptism of fire. But at the same time, I feel like looking back at that age, you're so ready. And that's what you're training for. And obviously, that's an amazing opportunity. And then that opportunity turned into a longer opportunity. I danced with the company for almost all their seasons that year. And so I was very lucky to have the, the staff and obviously the artistic director at the time, David McAllister, he could see me across a whole year almost, as opposed to going in one day for an audition somewhere, they have no idea who you are, where you've come from any story. And you have to somehow impress someone in in a glimpse or in a half an hour class, then, you know, to this day, I still find that hard when people come into cars valets, I'm like, I don't even know what you want to see like, and that's fine. By this point. You're just like, I need this is what I've got. And if you like it, great. And if you don't, all right, then that's kind of the nature of the industry. There's still something that I I find quite challenging. But like I said, at that at that time of, you know, trying to get my first job, I was very fortunate to have a long audition process. And not for a second though, did I think I would get a job the following year, but then at the end of the year, when they gave contracts out, they gave two female contracts and two male contracts and I was one of the females. That was lucky enough Did you get a job with the company then? Yeah, right. So then that meant you're part of that, that room that you've been sort of peeking in and looking out for those years, that would have been incredible. It really is. It's, you know, there's so much looking up to in ballet, you know, you watch videos in such a different world now, with the internet and YouTube, but back in the day, you'd have back in the day. But so, but no, I would watch the same videos at the Australian ballet company every Saturday over and over, and over, and I knew everything they did inside out. And then he walked down once a move to Melbourne. And then he walked down the corridor and that person, right there real quick. So, yeah, it's, I think it's a really lovely thing. And there's substitution traditions in ballet that really need to move forwards. But there's certain traditions that are really lovely, like when you're doing the company, and there's a lot of respect, obviously, for the principles. And if they don't have a passport, and you're absolutely a first year, you do not take a spot at the bar. And some of those things seem a bit archaic. But I also think in our, our industry and our career, those people have worked to where they've got to, and they who we look to and the epitome of that. And I actually loved that. Yeah, it's like that level of respect that you can show someone's in that, like, we were talking before about being called a ballerina. That's a title that you've earned. And, you know, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's, I guess all dancers feel differently about that. And that's a personal preference. But I don't feel that comfortable when people refer to me as a ballerina, because I'm not that, in my mind. I'm, for many reasons, I'm not that I'm a bit left field as a ballerina, but also, they're the people I look up to. They're the people who have earned that title as ballerinas of the company. And I've done a lot of amazing work, and I'm so proud of where I'm at, and the rain. COVID chi is something beyond my wildest dreams. But yeah, I even in like, you know, the smallest context when you know, even like, when a little girl calls me a ballerina like, Oh, I'm not quite I'm sorry. No, okay. Yeah, in my by myself, like, oh, that's, that's, that's those people. That's not me. Yeah, yeah, I can I just say that. It's, yeah, I think, like you said, there's probably a lot of things that can change. But I think there's nothing wrong with respecting people like you, like you the story that you've just outlined the amount of work that's gone in, you know, and there's people you know, that's what they do, they dedicate their entire life to their art. So I think there's, you know, there's a time and space for like, you know, some tradition, respect Yeah. Just while we're talking about that, I'll just mention quickly, my I went to school with two girls who went on to become dancers, dances with different ballets. I'm not sure if you know, Rachel Walsh, or if you've heard of Rachel, she was happy to fall. Yeah, we went through school together, up to I think she left you 10 might have been a last year in that Gambia. And then she went off to do her thing, which she's done, amazingly. And we've been chatting a bit. So we're organizing that she'll come on the show in the future, which is really cool. And another girl called, she's Lisa Robinson, and she went to Canada, I think, to do her dance, he or she ended up in Canada. She's there now. But it was just amazing that at that time, when you're when you're teenagers, you have no idea what these girls are doing what they're going through, you just go Oh, yeah, they're dead. They're dancing, you know, but they're, like you've described your whole world you switched on, that's your focus. And everything involved in that too. Like your, your way you eat, I suppose and the way you look after your body and the exercises you do and the training that you do. And here we are just you know, teenagers worrying about, you know, what the boys are up to or you know, it's just all different, different world. Like that's it. That's a really interesting point because I I think ballet dancers have to make certain decisions much earlier. You know, it would it's, it's comparable with elite athletes, but they have to make quite adult is an adult grown up decisions about what they'd like to do how they'd like to achieve it. But at quite a young age, I moved to Melbourne, I was 16. But I know there's other kids, I'd say, Yeah, you know, at 1415. And they might be in the boarding house or, you know, different, different home setups. And I can't comment on anyone else's experience, obviously. But you look back and you think, oh, that's, that's actually a massive deal. But at the time, and this is, this is the sort of people we are, who are who are drawn to what, to who are drawn to doing what this what we do, you have to be so driven, and dedicated, and focused, single minded focus and determined, resilient, they're all the skills that you're building up in your teenage years, which is not often I'd say, traditionally, the years you're building up those things. Oh, and, you know, staying open to things and so you, you did, probably there's a sense of isolation in that. I mean, I had great school friends around me who they were just like Danna does ballet. And that's really great. I know, other people have had different experiences by being so different. Obviously, a lot of men in the company, I've had lots of bullying experiences, I got a little bit about how small I was, and how, how focused I was, I guess, but I had really good people around me and I have a really amazing family who's not involved in ballet at all, really grounded. And it was all a bit of a new experience for me. And I felt a bit protected in that honestly. But yeah, it is it is. It feels like you're a bit ahead in many ways, at that age, because you have to be, but that's what prepares you for the career you're about to have. And to be able to handle the pressure that you have to at really quite a young age. Would you say, Don't put words in your mouth, but I've never been in the ballet world. Is it? Like I don't want to say cutthroat but is it a hugely intense? Like you talked about the having to audition? Like is there so much pressure to keep yourself at a certain level or and you're competing with other people all the time? Or if I got that really not on the mark? No, you're pretty spot on. What's probably a bit less expected is that it's it's a lot more nuanced than that in terms of it is cutthroat and it's competitive. And in a company, and I've been in a company for 18 years now, which I can't believe I still feel like I'm 16 It's a bit like that, I feel like you just keep you a little bit young somehow, in some way. But anyway, I do. It's a really interesting competitiveness. Because essentially, you're vying for the same roles all the time. And you're Korea is in is ideally solely in your hands and your work and the effort you're putting in and energy and your commitment, and your training, your resilience and your reliability. There's so many skills that are in your control. But there's also a really big one, which is someone else's opinion, and that at the end of the day, sometimes trumps everything. And I think a good thing to remember with that, though, is that across your career, you will be on both sides of that, you'll be on the side where someone comes in and just thinks you're the bee's knees. And they'll then there's the times that you're on the other side of that, which is someone who's not interested in you at all. And so everyone has their moments either side. And you know, you might have a couple of bad years where you feel like nothing's going your way. And trying to stay motivated in that time and internally driven and internally motivated, is very challenging. And I think that again, we move into this career quite young, I was performing at 17 with the National Ballet Company, which you know, there were younger people than that even so, especially young, but at that age, you're dealing with quite a lot of pressure and competitiveness. And you know, I've got children and you know, what would you want to tell your children You're perfect as you are, you know, just go out there and do a good job. Just work hard, and that's the most important thing. How do you tell someone or they just don't want Like, how you look? Yeah, like, that's just always, you know, obviously, in ballet, there's, you know, a lot of scope to talk about body types and body aesthetics. And the Australian ballet is really healthy in terms of that. There's, we all look really different. There's lots of different heights, and different body styles and different ways of moving, which ultimately, is the most important thing. But there is a lot of versatility in our company now. But sometimes it really is, they don't like how you look, or how you can't, which is the way you personally express yourself. So it's pretty heart wrenching sometimes because they're like how someone else does it more. And some, sometimes just thinking about almost as clearly as as brutal as it is, is the best way. Like, that's how they're doing it. I'm doing this over here. And as you get older, and more experienced, and I think weed life experience, obviously kind of boosting you. On all sides, you realize that this is all you have is what you are and what you bring. And if it's not your turn right now, it might be your turn next month. Yeah, I'm, that is such a incredible way of looking at things like that. It's so pragmatic. It's just an I personally, it took me a long time to get to that point with music, because it's, it's the same thing people like what you're doing or you don't, and it's you, you're putting yourself out there. And I got to a point. Like I used to do a Stanford to for singing. And one year I just thought, why am I doing this, I'm letting one person's opinion, decide how I feel about myself. And I just thought, I'm not doing this anymore. I don't, I don't want to feel like this. And I just stopped doing it. And then I can sort of like put myself up for different awards or put things online. And I feel like, if it's not my turn, it's someone else's turn. And that's they need that right now in their life. And it's become a really great way of me being able to just go, Oh, that's good, that's nice and not be worried about stuff anymore. Which took a long time, like, I'm nearly 44. So it's like, it's a thing that you have to go through, I think because no one can sit you down and say, right, this is how you should feel about failure. I think it's something you have to sort of work through yourself. But I love that I really love that the way I've described that. I think experience, you need experience on both sides of that coin. And you know, another thing in the company, you join the company, and we all have, we all have a certain level of talent that makes us ballet dancers. And then beyond that we all have our unique talents. And some of us, I'm a really good jumper, for example, because of how I'm built and I'm really athletic. But my whole life my whole career, I've wished I've looked like the other girls who are so beautiful and so elegant. And just total ballerinas and I have lots of energy, and it serves me really well sometimes. And other times I hold over a lot. I've just come to embrace and everyone's like Dan is on the floor again. Because I've gone through obviously different phases with what I've felt like on my own failures or weaknesses. Yeah. And of course, as a younger dancer, there is something so much about your work ethic. If I just work hard enough, I can change that. And there is merit to that, about working on our weaknesses, but ultimately, focusing on our strengths and amplifying them actually, is so much more. I don't know, it's you're so much more yourself, if that's what you're focusing on what you're putting your attention to. I spent, you know, my early years in the company were quite tricky. And I was having battles with, with what eventually became Hashimotos thyroiditis. So thyroid disease, which was undiagnosed for a long time. Yeah, and my body's a lot and being a professional ballet dancer and having a really low it's an autoimmune disease. But yeah, it's, it was really challenging. And so I was finding it very hard to have confidence in anything about myself and then when it came to my dancing, I was still in that mindset of if I could just make my legs look nicer if I you know, I've got really strong feet but they're not aesthetically beautiful like a lot of the other girls like I don't know, how about it, it's a really honor. Some other people probably say that to which I say hats off to you. But yeah, I just if I could just make that better. Yeah, my career will be better. But ultimately, it's it's not it's your career is going to be what it is. And they're, they're in a ballet camp, there is always room for a dancer like me. And that took time and maturity to realize there is someone has to be the person jumping, someone has to be the one moving fast. I'm a bit messy. And I'm always working on my footwork and trying to clean things up. But someone has to do that. And once I felt confident in that, that was something I could do that those other girls were like, how do you do that? I was like, I don't know, I just get in the air man, like, Oh, I'd love to be able to do that. I'd love to be able to stand still like you is a place that can be a place for everyone. And sometimes when it comes to casting things swing your way. And other times, they don't you realize your opportunities out there, you make the most of them. And then when you can see maybe there, what's tricky in the company, there might be a season you're not in very much, or there's not a lot of work for you. But you never know what's coming up next. And you know, often we do know what's coming up, but you never know what your next opportunity might be. So if you drop the ball, and think, Oh, this is my, this is my season where it's a bit average, or I'll just won't bother. Ya know what Julie, you might miss next because you're not ready. And that's these are the things that I have no doubt, I can say 100% have have created the opportunities that have actually made me and made my career not because, you know, I was built a certain way, being in the right place at the right time has has been very good to me. Yeah, and that you're right. It's like, it's you unless you're, unless you're ready for that opportunity when it comes? Well, actually, this person sort of slackened off a bit this year, because, you know, they didn't get so many roles. And we can see that. So we'll go to the next person, you know, so yeah, you've got to, you've always got to be motivated and still working and which would be intensely draining. Like it sounds like, you know, it's a full on life. Like you're just, I mean, obviously, lots of people do it. So it's sustainable. But from my point of view, someone who's not a dancer at all, and not highly motivated. It really it is and again, as a young student, you don't, it's what you want to do. It's your passion, it's your drive, you love it, you can't imagine not doing it. And you're willing to give up almost anything to do it. And it's so enjoyable. Like, I love dancing. I know last night I was on stage, and my old nanny actually was watching and she hadn't seen me dance after all these years. And she said, Oh, gosh, it just looks so much fun. And I said to her, I was like, I just have a stupid amount of fun when I'm on stage. And I know I've got my little kids at home, and I hope they're asleep and they ate them. And then I just had this. I know it's not a guilt, like guilty pleasure. I just, it's just so fun. Like, and I'm just lucky, I still enjoy what I do so much. But it is a lifestyle. It's it's not. It's not it's not a job for us. And I think, again, I can't speak for everyone else. But if it becomes a job, I don't think it's right anymore. Because it is so much more than that. And you have to put so much more into it. And in terms of just your hours, you know, we work really long hours, unusual hours. We rehearse in the days. We train every day, six days a week. We have Sundays off but we try and live every morning. We rehearse every day. We perform at night, but we don't just go in for the show at night. We train in the morning, rehearse show, two shows Wednesday two shows that day. 200 shows a year. It's yeah, it's the Australian ballet is one of if not the top amount of you know shows per year in terms of ballet companies. Yeah. Which takes a certain amount of resilience and managing your body and your mind over that time becomes a really important skill that you learn. It takes years to learn how to manage that. Yep, yeah. Can I help? Sorry, we were really doing a lot of talking about your ballet, which is dope, we will get to your family, it's okay. I'm just so honored to be able to speak to you. And I really want to squeeze everything out that I can because it's just really exciting. Like I said, my exposure to ballet, like with the girls that I grew up with, it was it was a world that I knew nothing about. I loved it. And I love watching ballet, it's just blows my mind how graceful and incredible it is. So I just want to ask you lots of things. I'm more than happy. You know, it's a lot of people find it quite a you know, it is this mysterious kind of world. And I'm, I'm always wanting to encourage people to ask questions. And it's, you know, there's obviously that version of ballet people often think about in their heads. And often it's a bit different to that. Or then there's the other one, which is like, Oh, is it like Black Swan? And it's like, well, there's little bits that are absolutely true. I'll be the first to tell you that it's not quite like that. But I think it's lovely that people are interested in in what we do. It's always a lovely thing. Awesome. Well, that's good. You can indulge me a bit longer than Absolutely. All right. So I'd like to ask you what your favorite roles have been that you've played and why. And I didn't even I didn't even give you a heads up. I was gonna ask you this. Sorry. No, that's, that's really I like being on the spot. Oh, that's really tricky. Because I'm, I mean, I've been so lucky. fortunate to have had such a wide range of roles and opportunities. Yeah, and across, you know, the starting Valley does a lot of strict classical ballet performances, you know, your swan lakes, you're not crackers does owls, kind of structurally classical ballet, Sleeping Beauty. And then we do a lot of contemporary modern work. And usually the year it's kind of somewhat, the balance is somewhat split. And I have had opportunities in kind of both sections of those repertoire groups. And it's kind of like when I was younger when people said, oh, did you like jazz or ballet? And I just liked it all. Yeah, it's the same thing. In what I do. Now, I just love it all. There's not one that's better than the other. And even as I get older, often people lean one way or the other. And I just, I just love it all, because I love dancing. And they all bring different challenges. I will say though, often certain roles at certain times in your career do seem to feel like they mean, even more. The one of my favorite, like all time, classical roles was Giselle. And I was very lucky I, I was able to dance the title role of Giselle, which I would never normally be casting because there's so many other girls who are so beautiful at it. And that's just the nature of it. Sometimes you don't get it, you know, you might get a go of all those girls weren't so good. But also, you know, stylistically, you know, some people might not cast me in that role, but it came out it came about because it was the regional tour of the Australian ballet goes out. And that year on I had my son Jasper a few months earlier. And I was talking with David McAllister, my director at the time about coming back and the the main company, we're actually going to London on tour then. And I was like, not up for that. Yeah. Actually, this is really great opportunity, if you would like the regional tour is taking out Giselle, and I think you'd make a really lovely Giselle, would you like to do it and this is like the Holy Grail of ballet. And I'm like, How can anyone say no like, like coming back after maternity leave? You know, talk about like not working your way up. It's like, it's the most incredible ballet role. It's the romantic ballet period. So it's not, you know, it's your long kind of soft tutus. Not your sticky outy. tutus. Yeah. And it's it's a beautiful ballet about this young peasant girl who falls in love. And then she realizes that he's actually a royal and he's engaged to someone else. And she has a weak heart anyway, and her she basically, cat, you know, goes into such a state and her heart gives way and she, she dies. And then the second act is the ethereal, otherworldly spirit world. And so she is one of the willies. They're called. And this beautiful quarter ballet scene, that's the big roof of the company, create this amazing atmosphere. They're like ghosts. And so Albrecht, who was the man she fell in love with comes to find her grave and her spirit. And she basically saves him because the Queen Miyata, Queen of the willies. So queen of all of these, you know, these girls who were jilted before their wedding days, they dance the man to death, anyone who dares enters the forest, you know, after dark, and Giselle with all her compassion and forgiveness dances until sunrise with our breaks this love of hers to save him. And, you know, it's a role that is so intricate, in terms of its dancing, but more than anything, just the story is so, so beautiful to tell, and you can really make your own mark on it. And to cut back after having a baby at that point, that role was so, so perfect and cathartic for me to dive into. Because there was just a whole new level of me that was able to have that absolute 100% all in love, compassion, forgiveness, I'll do anything for you know, that you have to have a child, that's just, you know, I don't even know how it comes out. But it's just a part of you. And I had this beautiful art form this beautiful music, this atmosphere and to just, you know, pour that all into so the timing of that roll, that roll in itself is is a gift to any ballet dancer or ballerina. Yeah, it's a real ballerina role. And, you know, I haven't had a lot of those ballerina moments, I could say, that might have been my one. But it was the timing of that, particularly that was so special in every single show. It's not about you know, if you got all your face positions, or if your turns were perfect. It's about, you know, your connection with your partner the atmosphere you create, and, and every show, I walked away just so happy and proud. And so touched and humbled by being able to do that at that time. You know, and I was like camping before the show. Yeah. And, you know, always bath in Jasper and then would rush to the theater and go into this other world. But that whole time did have this really special magic. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I will assume you. You've actually answered a question that I was going to ask you later about, because there's so much acting involved in your dancing. I think I think a lot of people realize that, that that's such a massive part of what you do. The way that you'd approach a role changed after you became a mom and you've just answered that without even asking it. It's just Yeah, I love I really think, again, that's a craft that you you have to learn across your years. You know, you come to as a young dancer and you're you're dancing and you know, you might do a bit of like, acting in terms of the ballets you're putting on it students, but that is a craft that you you learn and you know, I've been so fortunate that I've grown up in the company watching these incredible ballerinas and several of them were became mothers while they were still dancing, and I could see that transformation. I don't know how well they've had babies, but just the depth that the expression, the naturalness, the freedom, like there's so many things that come out of that, but you know, you sit there and you watch all those full rehearsals for the whole company in a room, running all these big ballets. And you you watch over the years how many We'll do those things. And when you get a chance to be able to wish I had at that point in time to put all of that in to a role. That was, yeah, such a magical time. Obviously, then there's valleys that don't have a story. And so, in terms of, you know, you're not acting per se, but you might, you know, there's obviously always envision in your mind that you're thinking of, or, you know, a vision the choreographer wants you to create, or an energy or a feeling or something in those kinds of contemporary works. And, you know, conversely, that's what I also enjoy about the contemporary repertoire that we, you know, we perform, is those kind of really physical, the expression is the physicality and the physical physicality almost has a persona, and you have a persona, when you're, you're dancing that even if there's not a story, yeah, that's your input, you embody those emotions or whatever the you're trying to get out. Yeah, yeah. And often, you know, obviously, ballet. For me anyway, the music is, it's the marriage of the ballet and the music, it's, that's when it comes to get it that alchemy, that's, that's what's, you know, goes across that, you know, the fault lines, that's what the audience takes on that their experience is that, you know, Alchemy that's happening in front of them, and that can be equally as powerful. In a contemporary work, I was very lucky I, when a choreographer call Wayne McGregor came out from the UK. He's a very, very renowned choreographer. And at the time, he just started as a resident choreographer at the Royal Ballet. So he was a contemporary choreographer, and then he started to move to the ballet space of it. And then not long after lots of ballet companies across the world, we're grabbing him to, like get a work by Wayne. Yeah, we were quite early in the piece, really, at that sort of time, we're able to, somehow now became, and he created a work called diet 1929 here, and that was a time he came into the room to obviously cast the ballet, we're in class, and I was quite young at the time, or maybe 24 or something, and, and I knew his work, I was like, so cool to be here. But you know, like, how do you how do you get in it? Yeah, you standing there doing fundraising? Like what can you see in my Tonberry, that's not very good, because I'm not very good at them still, that might show you that I or so want to be in your way. Anyway, really, you know, often ballets a cast from the hierarchy. So from the top of the company down, I was still in the quarterback at the time, which is, you know, the big ensemble down the bottom. But not everyone cast like that he came in, and he looked at the whole company as a whole. And it didn't matter where you were. Yeah, I think, anyway, very fortunately, got cast and his ballet, and then that ballet across my time. You know, that was such a, you know, working with him at that time was like groundbreaking for all of us. We've never worked with someone like this. He's so fast. He's so smart. He is. He does a lot of work with brain science and how he puts that into, you know, ballet and art a lot of people wouldn't even understand but for him, like, that's how he creates it. You watch his brain work. And you think, wow, I just like, you just see all the neurons firing. It was a really exciting time. It felt very, like we're in the moment cutting edge. And I, I was very fortunate to learn a spot in that. And so I was performing that and then across my career, every time we've done that ballot, then moved on to a different spot. Yeah, right. So for different spots in that valley, you know, we took it to New York. And you know, I did a different spot in that. And so I've kind of grown up in that valley. So that's one of my favorite contemporary pieces. Yeah, that's been my journey as well in terms of, I stepped up into, you know, different roles. And then my last show before I had my twin girls actually was in that valley in a white leotard, which is absolutely what you want to be in when you're pregnant with twins at 11 weeks. It's all it actually has been saying in about a month. So Valley mountains that you just, you cannot time it any better. But you are usually when you're, you know, early, you know, first trimester dancing, if you're pregnant, you have to be in a flesh leotard or while you're tired because it always happens like that. Nobody's like a free free dress or like something coming it's just always happens to fall in the most exposing of all so yeah, but same time that I knew that those were my last shows and I actually thought they were my last shows ever. And so to for it to be in that work. That particular work was really special to me, and I've done Lots of contemporary works. And they're all fantastic too. And they could so easily be my favorites. Yeah, but the timing again and what that whole valley and journey meant that yeah, that's a really special suspicion yeah I don't want to talk too much more about your ballet. I do want to, but I'm gonna make myself stop. But you've mentioned the music. And it's like, I absolutely that is. I don't want to say it's my favorite part of ballet because of course, the dancing is pretty awesome. But like you said, the way that it's all wrapped up together, and the costuming and everything and my favorite bit ever was in Swan Lake when because, you know, you've got that theme that dad did it, it did. I don't know what any of this is called. So just go with me here. When it turns when it changes at the end. And it's goes from being in a minor key tool, major key. And it's just it gives you goosebumps, it's like it just taught it tells you the story through the music, they don't even have to tell you what's happened to this character, this transformation. It's like you just hear in the music. And it's just that moment, every time I hear it, I just go Oh, survive. And to rely, you could just imagine how you How could you contain yourself when you're actually onstage doing that, like I always think like, it could just be like envelopes in it, you're just your whole body and your senses, it just be like charged, it'd be amazing. It's such a full body experience, I think and we are so used to that. And so it did that. And it's an incredible feeling, you know, some of the, the scores we dance to and, you know, some scores, you know, like the the big Tchaikovsky's or, you know, it's, you've heard them over and over. And I bet you've rehearsed. And I went and stopped going back. I can't stop, go back. You know, you've heard them cut up many times, you're often counting certain things. You know, the ballet we're dancing at the moment is Anna Karenina, and the score was made for this particular production. So it also marries so perfectly. Yeah. And, you know, it's a really tragic story, obviously. And there's some absolutely just heartbreaking musical moments that are just matched so beautifully with what's happening on stage. That, you know, we've seen it so many times. And it still it gives me goosebumps, and it still feels like ah, this is just like so. Yeah, it's just, I don't know, it's yeah, it's such a privilege, you know, to, to watch people in that moment or to be in that moment. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. It's beautiful. I love it all right, let's talk about your children. You've mentioned them briefly in passing. Tell us a little bit more about your family. I have three children, which still doesn't seem real when I say that to me. I'm not doing I do I do. Just make sure. I don't mean to discount the massiveness of that and I'm, I'm so fortunate to have been lucky enough to have three beautiful children. But I do still feel quite I don't know, I guess each day I'm just like treading water. So sometimes I don't stop to like acknowledge. Yeah, I've got three beautiful children. Jasper, my son is six. And he has grown up around the valley, which is a really unique, you know, he hasn't been here every every second but he's grown up around it. And He's toured with me and I went back to dancing after I had him dancing Giselle in that regional tour when he was nine months old. So he came out on the road with me and my mom and my mom has been like the biggest To support save, You're everything to me for my whole career. I mean, she was the one who took me to every dance class. And she is not a ballet mom at all. She doesn't know one step from the other. But she has just been there every moment. And so he's been very lucky to travel a little bit with me too, but he has a real appreciation for it. But yes, I have twin girls, Lulu, and Lottie, who are 18 months old now or a few days time. So they're little, very cheeky, very funny. little toddlers at the moment, were in that sweet stage before the that yes, I was. There's no twins in our family. And that came as a bit of a shock. Yeah. And, you know, I, this is something I think this is another part of the ballet world that, you know, I don't think he's really, I guess, thought about talked about, you know, obviously a woman's choice to have children when she has them. How that works with her career is a very, very personal choice. And I absolutely respect that people don't talk about it. But I think it's really interesting. And it's probably very similar for elite athletes. But again, I can just talk about the ballet experience. You know, artistically, you are, finally, after so many years of training, learning the craft, performing, you know, working, just optimizing, you get to your 30s, artistically, you're finally coming into your straps, you're not even there yet, probably you're just coming into your straps, you're coming into that zone, where it all starts to be cohesive and make sense. And you can feel that you can trust yourself, you can go for it. And that's also the years where you need to start about a family. And if you'd like to have one how that might work. And I think that is quite a battle for the dancers in that kind of part of their career, because how can you How could you possibly choose to stop? And then there's always thinking, Oh, what's it going to be like, on the other side, I'll lose a year I've got really good, you know, flow I've got, you know, you might be in a really good trajectory, you know, not just a ranking sort of thing. But just like with the roles, you're getting the impetus, the momentum, you're building your reputation, but just like how you feel in yourself, and then to then I'm just going to stop that now. And just take, firstly, nine months to have a baby. And I'm talking very pragmatically here. I know, this is obviously, you know, there's a whole lot more to it. But I'm just like to say it kind of nine months for that and then getting back into into it. How will that work? Who's my where's the support system? How would it work? It's I think it's a really daunting prospect. And you know, there's always like, Oh, but there's that ballet coming up next year. I've always wanted to do that. We can't dance till we're 60. It's not a career that lasts forever. So, yeah, I feel like you entered. I was lucky. I had Jasper when I was 30. And I was ready, then I was ready to stop. I was ready for it to not be about me. And I left it quite open in that sense. But yeah, I just think and you know, that's, you know, on the flip side, it's such a beautiful thing, that becoming a mum only makes your ballet career so much richer and so much more beautiful. And, you know, you can't know that beforehand. You see that in other people? But yeah, yeah. Also, then, you know, not that long after you might be thinking about retirement, I just think there's like this even like five year window, that's hyper pressure about what choices you're making, when you're making them. He's now a good time. If I'm, if I step away now, to do this, all those other girls are gonna get my impetus. And then when I come back when it's my place, it's, you know, but fortunately, I feel like when I chose to have my children, and when I, when I chose to have, you know, to say, Okay, I think I think I'm happy with what I've achieved here now, and I'd like to look at having another child in this case to that one. I was happy with what I'd achieved and it was too important. For me, it wasn't about what ballet was coming up. It was. It wasn't about that it was I would love the opportunity to have a child, another child and obviously we'd lucky to and so that trumps everything and very fortunately, we're lucky to have him At a beautiful girls. And we're a family of five. I love that so when you when you did have Jasper, did you think that was the end? And you were happy with that? Or were you still thinking I can come back? You know, I've got the support of my mom, I can, I can do this. And I could, I was very lucky that I'd seen women in the company go before me. And quite a lot of them honestly, because David McAllister, the director at the time, really pioneered the maternity leave and process of the Australian ballet, which is, again a front runner of worldwide standards, I could see that it was possible. I was encouraged by that. Again, they were the ballerinas as the company, I was a soloist at the time, so I wasn't on the same level as them. But also like an by level, I also mean, as a principal dancer, as principal artists, you are mostly not dancing every night and and show because you have your two or three Shows a week. This is not every week, but let's just change your Time Season. They're on all the time. But generally speaking, they have their specific shows, and you know, perhaps a bit more saying what they're doing and their timings. When you're Junior in the company, you don't you're in the biggest scene. So you're there rehearsing in the bigger scenes every day that need more time, you're not just rehearsing you and your partner, or can we do that at one today, because I've got to go or you're kind of at the mercy of the group. And then you're at the mercy of all the shows. So it's not about I'll be in the theater, like three nights a week, it's like, I'll be there six nights a week, like every week. So I had worked to a point where I'd got I was really happy with what I achieved. And again, at that point, I had a very clear mind that having a child was the most important thing. And if that was it, I was very open ended, you know if something if he was, you know, sick as a baby, or if I didn't feel like it felt right for me anymore. I would have stopped dancing. I just left it quite open. So a few months after he was born, I started doing some Pilates. And I thought now I've still got it in me and even though we don't have family in Melbourne, I was mum was able to talk with me. So I gave it a go. And then after when I knew I was pregnant with the girls I I then knew like at that first scan appointment, when I saw there was two, and I gasped he started crying. No. I'll never forget that moment. It was just it was such a indescribable, like, so many feelings. Not instantly, but I thought you know what, I think this is life telling me that this is probably time, it's time to enjoy the bit you've got left. And I was just hoping to get to that particular season that I was talking about previously to get to do that ballet died 1929. Yep. Because I thought that was a beautiful full circle. I was really sick and tired. Like really sick with the girls being pregnant with them. So I didn't know if I'd actually be able to make it to that point. But I just tried. Just gave myself each day at a time and I was able to get through those shows before COVID shut us down anyway. So I was able to do those shows. And then and thought they were my last. Yeah, yeah. I want to ask you, you've mentioned feeling sick with the girls. What's it like? Being like dancing when you are pregnant? Like do the does the company sort of make allowances? Do they? Do you have like special things that you're not allowed to do like that? How does it sort of work? Yeah, well, it is quite different for everyone. Obviously, you're not you know, you're not able to sit at your desk and hide away a bit and you know, discreetly go to the bathroom. If you're feeling a bit nauseous and I look it's a very vulnerable time for any woman and I it doesn't matter how many times you've been pregnant what the circumstances are. I think every woman feels very vulnerable until you feel like the pregnancy is safely on its way so I think you That's really tricky to balance with the fact that it's a very public public profession, you're in a leotard. People can look at you and you're not feeling great. You sense that other people can tell that they're still many, many weeks to go before you're in the clear, or you feel comfortable to tell your boss or other dancers. So it's actually a really yucky time. Irrespective if you're tired or sick. It's a very it feels really confronting and both pregnancies I felt really. Yeah, not. I don't enjoy that, you know, it's my first pregnancy with Jasper, I sprained my ankle ankle at seven weeks. And I think that was just a blessing, because I wasn't about maybe nine weeks, and I wasn't coping with just, like, feeling like it was so obvious, but you've got a long time to go, you've got to pretend you're still able to do everything, obviously, at any point you can, you can speak to staff, and they'll absolutely, you know, just keep like, keep that in mind. And, yeah, obviously, that that level of duty of care is absolutely there. But you know, as as a woman, you don't feel comfortable. Just you know, saying I'm eight weeks pregnant, you know, there's still four or five weeks to go before I really feel okay about this. But yes, it can affect the repertoire you're doing and obviously different partner and different lifts and things. Some some girls tell the partner they're dancing with, and some don't, because they don't want their partner to freak out. They're going to do something wrong, and you're guided by your health, your health care professionals, and I had a lovely obstetrician for the girls who said to me when Okay, let's talk about twins. And I just said, I surely can't do anything that I meant to be doing. And he said, No, no, you're and obviously, this is not medical advice. This is just what he said to me in my circumstance. He said, No, no, just you just do what you're doing. That's your life. Normally, just keep doing that. I want you to do that. He gave me some options for the sickness. But other than that, and he was just said, you keep doing that. And I told David at the time, when I was 10 weeks pregnant, I was so close to getting to the shows, but I just had to say no. And he was so excited. I love it. So excited. Yeah, certainly I'm sure in many years, not that long ago gone by it was not at all a comfortable conversation to have. Yeah, I that's something in itself. I always felt like this was exciting news to share. It wasn't like, oh, well, that's, that's going to be a shame. Or why did you choose now like you're just doing so well, there's none of that, in my experience. And so there shouldn't be but I'm sure in the years gone by it was seen as a, you're not as dedicated because you've chosen to do this. Yeah, absolutely. And there probably wouldn't be the option to come back, because people would judge you on that and go, Well, they've chosen that so that you don't come back? No, I think traditionally, absolutely. And David was very clear about making that cultural, you know, a huge, a huge change in that, that it was only supportive, and you don't want to be losing all your top women, just because they they realize they don't want to miss out on something that has a finite time. Our career has a finite time. And so does you know, the years where you are able to have your children and care for them and deal with, you know, their early years. That's what's so tricky. Our job is so demanding to what we often feel as ballet moms feel at odds with is that you know, those early child hood years are so intense also. And you don't want to miss lots of it. And you want to be forming that bond and that connection, but also your career there. They are your best years. And they're kind of endears. So it's like a really tricky. And you just find your way and they do complement each other. But yeah, it's a big, I think it is a big decision to kind of be confident enough. If you do want to continue to ask him to put a pause button and say this is really important that I have a family as well. And then I'm going to come back and I'm still going to be able to do what I can do. Yeah, absolutely. When you found out you're having tweens and you mentioned those emotions. Did you think how's my body going to? I mean, I suppose at that point you weren't thinking Coming back, necessarily. But did you think how's my body going to go? Then? After all the changes? It's going to go through having to at one time, will I will I be able to dance the same way? Or, you know, how will my body come back from that with its, you know, flexibility? All that that kind of stuff. Did you did that sort of? Was that something was you thinking? I guess, because I wasn't thinking about coming back. And, again, I'll just like the timing of it. Literally COVID had just hit Australia. A few days before that. Last season I did opened and we only were able to perform three shows a Friday into Saturday. And then everything was close. That was when everything shut down. Yeah. Sorry about it only recently performed in Melbourne this last week, since then, sorry. Which everyone thinks is actually some kind of miracle. Right? Do they days, you know, give this to them, care for them? And then come back. And, you know, oh, it's the opening of Anna Karenina that was meant to open two years ago. And yeah. But I guess yeah, my mindset wasn't on, on anything regards to ballet. Yeah, when I was, I wasn't absolutely dead set against coming back. But I just in my mind, I was leaning towards that. And I've never actually, you know, really thought too hard about that kind of physical change. In terms of my career, with, you know, with pregnancy, I did, you know, I was pretty concerned about having a twin pregnancy genuinely, it's, it is a high risk. And, you know, we had our own complications along the way. And so nothing's taken for granted. And I think that perspectives enough to be like, you know, if you, if you can't get your leg up pie anymore, it's really, it's really not important. So I was just amazed my body could handle the twin pregnancy generally. Because I'm not, there's not a lot of room. Amazingly, they make room but pretty, pretty uncomfortable at the end. And, but it's also like I, a lot of people think somehow being a valid answer must help you in birth or something. And perhaps it does, but I think more than anything, it's just that you've been so strong your whole life, that on the flip side, your recoveries probably a bit. A bit easier, even from a twin pregnancy, then yeah, maybe someone who hasn't been as active and just so aware of, you know, muscles and how things feel. And yeah, I mean, I think a lot of valid answers. So if they do go back, they try to go back really quickly to dancing and they miss it. Like, I think physically, they miss it, and they miss feeling like that. And they have, you know, a really clear vision and for whatever other reasons, which are their own, they want to dance so quickly again. I mean, I didn't have that. That's just not part of me, but also after the twins. I mean, I wasn't sleeping until they were like 10 months old, proper properly. So I don't know where in that I was meant to be. In that to be thinking about doing ballet. i If there was ever a 10 minutes, I would try to lie on the couch. You know, I wasn't like oh, just do some exercise. It wasn't really my headspace. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I want to bring up I've had my own experiences with postnatal depression. So I can relate to a lot of stories that my guests share. And you've been really vocal about your journey. And I want to commend you for that, because I think it's so important that we talk about it so that it becomes like a normalization of this is, this is something that happens to a lot of people. And it's not something to, you know, be scared of or hide away from, we're going to talk about it so everyone can sort of help each other and, and ways to get through it. If you're comfortable sharing we can you tell us a little bit about that experience. Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, it's, you know, I I agree. It's, it's a topic that I believe should be spoken about more. You know, I can also understand you don't want to put that on to new months in that, oh, you know, it can be this hard and it can be so bad and you know, when they're going through such a transformative experience, and some people are not affected in that way. So you don't want to be Putting that experience onto everyone. But by the same token, there are so many women who are really battling with something that is out of their control. And it's meant to be the happiest time of your life. And it isn't, you feel quite unhappy, really. And on top of that, you're so sleep deprived, and so unable, what feels like so unable to cope, and then the guilt of not feeling like it's the happiest time of your life. There's so many levels of that, and the layers just kind of keep building each day. And it is, it's this, it's this kind of base and I can see, you know, externally now that why you feel like you can't say anything, and I felt that like that at the time, and I have such amazing support. And, you know, Locky is, is my greatest support in every way. And, you know, I had to sometimes some days, I had to feel, find the bravery somewhere in myself to actually say how it was. Because it felt like such a big thing to put on to someone else who's already supporting you, you know, and if that's your mom, or if that's anyone, but just to be like, it's actually really bad. You know, these are actually the thoughts I'm having. And I don't mean to be dramatic, because it's actually is that bad, you know, and mine. My postnatal depression, and anxiety kind of set in quite quickly. And, you know, I know everyone has a different experience. And yeah, I guess I'll just share mine. But yeah, twins is quite a shock. And I was so euphoric, I had this amazing, beautiful birth with them. And yeah, I had natural deliveries. And they were, you know, we, they were almost full term, and they were healthy. And after a really long pregnancy, worrying, like the relief for that. And I couldn't believe my body could do that. And I was like, This is great. And, you know, they were feeding well. And I was managing to feed them, somehow duck tanned and feed them, which is just somehow managed to do that. And you know, so you know, that first bit that first week or so, like, wow, I made two babies. And it's, um, yeah, I was, I actually did feel that pride and that, you know, we were ecstatic. And then, you know, the actual care of twins, and obviously, multiple births, you actually are just statistically at a higher risk of postnatal depression, because it's just hard. Yeah. And I was very lucky, I had people around me who said it like that, you know, and I had a really great obstetrician in Brisbane, where we had the girls eventually, I remember the six week appointment we had, I had it at four weeks, because we had to go back to Sydney at that time. So like, he could go back to work. And we had it a bit early. So it was even earlier than you know. And I walked in, and he was like, how he going and I said, like, death warmed up, and we'd had a terrible night, 20 minutes sleep the whole night. I was feeding them. At that point, trying to establish as is to better at once is one everyone says put them on a schedule schedule, put them on a schedule. And for someone who's had a schedule my whole life, like I, I would take to that like a duck to water but these babies still didn't know that. willing to do it. And I'm still feel like there's a part of me that, you know, was was perhaps keeping twins for a reason because I can stick I'm determined, I will make them do the same things at once. But not at that stage. They you know, and they're so you know, their tummies are so little and all of the, you know, you're up padding and tap, you know, do they need more and all of that, but times two. And so after even just four weeks of that, and no sleep. And I was feeding them so that's exhausting, obviously. And it really came on like a, you know, like a freight truck, even by that point. And then we moved back to Sydney. And I met a really wonderful, very just by chance. My maternal child health nurse there was incredible and a really important person in my journey because straightaway, even though she'd never met me, and I told her our, our story, and you know, my I hadn't seen my son Jasper, who was in Melbourne with his dad. And he'd been there 10 weeks and because the borders were closed with COVID Oh, yeah. And it's like, right, so you're here. You had the girls in Brisbane, because you had to fly up, go up, drive up there do hotel quarantine because of the risk. There was a risky birth situation anyway. So we had family support, so you had to leave your son in mail. When you're here in Sydney, you've been around a bit, you've just had twins, feeding them. And she's just like, this is, this is a lot. And she's like, No, you're not around your friends like, and you know, my work friends are my family. You're not around you use your usual people. You're at a really high risk here. And, and I was like, really? Ah, no, I'll be right. And she's, and she was like, no, no, we're, we're going to look at this. And I'm going to tell you like in a really great pragmatic way with someone who's so sleep deprived, and emotionally drained, needs to sometimes hear it so bluntly. And she's like, it's, you know, twins, it's about twin management. And, you know, I was like, but I meant to be like, loving them and like caring, and like looking at their toenails. And I'm like, I don't even know what their toes look like. That feeling of like, how much your adoring them and like staring at them. And with twins, you feel like, in fact, I can see you're getting, you're trying to get to know two people at once. So you're getting double the input, like feedback, but you can't process so I felt like it took me so much longer to know which one liked what and which one needed and to feel equally as close and in connection with an in tune with both, because it was just like, kind of like not a production line. But it's just it's just all routine. Yeah, yeah, it was. And, and that was to our to get to a point that it was to our benefit, so that you weren't up all day and all night with one baby at a time. So it was all working towards that. But to make that happen is is like hard work like effort, like one's up, okay, get the other one out. Okay, feed, that one's going out, put the other one down. Like it's, it's not just go with the flow. And I thought being a second pregnancy second baby, I'd love to be that like go with the flow parent, which ultimately probably doesn't suit my personality. But to just be more relaxed and to know it all passes. And to know, you get through it. And but it was it was such a different experience. So how could I and I, I really needed so much support. And I'm just to this day, every day. So grateful I had access to support. I know it makes me so sad to know that there's women out there who just don't have that support, or someone saying you need, I'm going to funnel you into a system and you're going to go to that mother baby and or you're going to have this appointment, or we're going to squeeze you into a telehealth to talk to someone because right now, that's crucial. It's not just like, oh, you know, four weeks time we'll do. It's like, right now this needs to happen. And very, very fortunately, with twins, in those sorts of areas, you do sometimes get a little bit of a, you get a priority. It's like we know this, this is yes has to happen. Yeah, which I you know, I was really grateful for that so I had people checking on me, and I felt so incapable. And just, you know, yeah, just so out of my depth. And, you know, I was just like, I think back and it is an every time. It's like, it's like a dream, like, and not always a good one. But it's like and I with my son, he came up to see us and I'd you know hadn't seen him it's so long, which was just so hard in itself. And he was meeting his new sisters and he had so much energy and I had so little to give him and it's just you know, there was always a baby that needed something and you know, he's been so patient and had to adjust but it took me a long time, especially with how I was feeling and how low I was feeling. And so anxious. You know, even when I got to sleep, I couldn't sleep. I didn't know again until I'd spoken to my nurse and to the psychologists I eventually spoke to that I that that feeling of rage or like anger, but mostly that that rage that like volcanoes up inside you and you just need like a you know, the pressure valve just needs to release is is a real, real sign of anxiety you You just think I'm just a horrible person. And I'm just so mean to everyone. And I'm so angry, and it's not fair. And why am I so awful? And he's like, No, it's the pressure release of you're so anxious. And I think in my career, I'm so used to dealing with pressure. And even if you're anxious, you're able to deal with it. Either squash it, compartmentalize it, do something with it. I didn't have an outlet. I didn't have time. You know, anyone talks about moms having time for themselves. It's like, that was a joke. When was like, understandably, it's just not, it's also not a fact, when he had young twins, and leaving the house, and people would talk to me at the cafe, and I just, I wouldn't even know how to talk. Like, I just, I just looked down, please don't talk to me, please. Lovely, have more and just like so. And, and you feel and it's another point where you just let I just don't feel that. Like they're so beautiful, and I love them. But my experience is just like, I can't get through this. I'm I'm just floundering. And that mismatch between what what people expect or think, is another layer of like, RC like I should be. And if I could just like what I said earlier about, but if I could just work harder if I could just think differently. I'm sure I could turn this around. But really, I needed a lot of help and support. And in time sleep. Yeah. Yeah, I needed an iron infusion. I needed, you know, there was a whole plan that I was very lucky, multiple people, you know, and I had an incredibly supportive partner who sat there and looked me in the face. And you know, how old were you when I said awful things, you know, really was like, I don't like having to say this. But if I get this out, it has less power. And then we could kind of like, move through it. And so over time, and I noticed too, this is something that it feels like too much to be like, I need an hour to do my telehealth with my psychologist, you know, especially with a young family and Jasper was at school. And there was always a reason I could have just cancelled that I was lucky to get into a psychologist with the Gates Foundation in Sydney. And so that really worked, especially not having to go out of the house. If I had to go to an appointment, I probably wouldn't have prioritized it again. I was lucky in that COVID time that telehealth was a thing. And yet, when I dropped a few weeks, it wouldn't happen immediately. But it would start to come in again, I'd feel that that ends all day anxiety. And as soon as one of the girls would wake up before I wanted her to it was so frustrating. And why are you? Why are you not doing what I thought you're meant to be doing. And now I have to get the other one out and restart again. And it's school pick up tight and just it would my coping mechanisms would start to fall away again. And obviously, everything feels like it falls apart. So definitely talking to someone, you know, weekly became a priority. And if that meant I heard, you know, my mom with the girls, and they're both screaming as hard as that was, yeah. It, I had to at some in some way. Prioritize that hour. And then once the girls were able to be in a routine that was more consistent, they didn't sleep as well as my son ever did. And, you know, every time they went through a sleep regression, one of them would always hit it worse than the other. And, and you know, not that long ago, you know, one of my girls was up for like six hours a night for a couple of weeks. And you're just like, What do I do? How How is ones just sleeping? And but you what do you do with a baby for six hours says every Monday, every overwhelmed of all time. And of course you get through it. But I could get through that because I'm in such a better place. And I've had some sleep. And it seems so simplistic to say, Oh, you just need time and sleep. But really, fundamentally, they're two really important things that help you with young babies. Yeah, absolutely. Sleep is sleep is king. You just get anxious about it. And so I'm like set on how everyone's sleeping how the baby's sleep times to this case, which it was ultimately everything. How you're sleeping, how my son like anyone who'd make a noise that would potentially you know, a lot of symptoms of postnatal depression and anxiety I you think all you feel pretty, pretty sad and pretty low bit unmotivated. You're not enjoying it as much. A lot of the Symptoms like I couldn't handle light. I couldn't handle sound my son's footsteps running down the corridor. We're just like, Ah, it's just so loud in here one night, I was asking people to turn off the lights and the TV. And everyone was so lovely and, you know, receptive, but they looked at me like, oh my gosh, yeah, it's really not that bad. But the sensory overload for someone who was already at the end of it, like wit's end on every level, I think was just too much of a trigger. When I, I had my first son 14 years ago, and we, you know, you go to the prenatal classes, and this guy came in from Beyond Blue, I think, Oh, I can't remember where he was from, he might have just been from the hospital. So basically, he, he said to us, you're going to have times when you feel beat down, it's going to be hard. You're going to have, you're going to feel you're gonna get the baby blues. So good luck with that. And that was what, that's what they told us about, about postnatal depression. And it was like the intensity, oh my gosh, actually can be. And also, by this point, for anyone, when you're having a child, it's the responsibility you feel like, is overwhelming at times. Even though this is something you desperately wanted in that it doesn't change the fact that it's a huge responsibility that everything to do with this little person, or these two little people, it is about you and your decision. And every decision you make, you know, it's I think, trivialize it like that, compared to, obviously, you know, what it's like, it's couldn't, couldn't be, you know, more polar opposite to how intense it feels. It's absolutely not baby blues. And you know, that's what I say to anyone I know, who's having a baby or has had a baby, you know, like, I'm up in the night often anyway, so if you need to call anyone, please just know, you can always message me or call me or anything, because it's, it's not trivial. And there are some moments in time that you might actually just need someone. And as someone who, it doesn't matter what you've done in your life previously, as someone who by that point usually feels a bit capable are a bit like, you know, I can manage things to feel so incapable is, and so at a loss is such an unsettling, despondent feeling, let alone then feeling like that, and being responsible for someone else. Hmm. Yeah. I want to touch on when you said, when you spoke to your, the nurse that you said was really, really good. When she sort of told you all these things, these were massive things that were impacting, and, and you sort of said, I'll be right. Were you feeling like at that point? And you don't have to answer this if I'm trying too much. Did you feel like because I'm sort of trying to relate it to my experience? Did you feel like you had to pretend it wasn't happening? Or did you really genuinely feel like it was wasn't happening? I don't think I was aware how bad it was, even though I felt really bad. I knew it was I think it's like everyone has that pride. And I think I thought I could get through it. Or a bit like if I just do this in this a nice it'll, it'll go away or or it will get better. Yeah, I guess that was her point was just, you know, it's it doesn't have to be okay. You have so much going on, not to mention a pandemic. Yeah. Parents of the last two years, have not been able to access for their children for themselves for their families, the same levels of care, the lack of, you know, the lockdowns, the restrictions that the people popping over the all of those little things that at such a critical time, might be that one person you spoke to who you got to have a hug with, or might be, you know, all of that wasn't there. And I think I'm used to coping with quite a lot. I'll be the first to say I don't cope very well with change, or with anything going not to plan. Even though a whole lot of things in life in my life. You know, like, really there's been A lot of change and a whole lot of things that I've actually had to cope with. I think I cope externally very well. But internally, I, I battle how well I'm coping. And also I you know, you don't want to be a downer for everyone. I think that's another layer that no, we will women who are feeling, you know, like they are postnatally depressed, that you don't want to be a burden on other people. You want to live up to what you're meant to be living up to, you know, yeah, that is so true. You just not. And again, sometimes it has to be as plain as day is that. And also that first appointment, I think, you know, I had all these questions about the babies and you know, this feeding this and, you know, sleeping in their tummies, all this stuff, you had this list of things like all every new moms, dads, and she's like, I don't want to talk about babies. It was so amazing. So experience is I want to talk to you my mind anxious me, I just wish we could get to the things I want to talk about. So I'm getting to know both of us, myself lucky, our stories, how we got to this point, and you know, obviously with the traveling and the quarantine, and all of the know driving on the highway and all of this and Jasper and and she's like, you know, it's a pyramid structure. And she said, everyone thinks that the parents are, you know, come last, and there at the bottom, but it's actually the other way around. If you're at the top, and it filters down. If you guys aren't okay, no one's okay. And then when it came to me, if you're not, okay, no one else is okay. And that's not a burden to you, that's just where we need to put you in this picture. Because you're going to be putting yourself down here and everyone else comes first. And that the baby's needs come first. And as someone who does like perfection in that way, whenever they'd cry, I'd feel like a failure. When I couldn't settle them, I'd feel like a failure. And like lots of mums do because that's your feedback. And you equate that to how well you're doing at being a mum. And when you've got two of them at once doing that. Or when you've just got one settled and the other you think your status quo is constantly being disrupted. So therefore, you must be doing a terrible job. And someone else would be doing this better than you. But she, she kind of was the right person for me to be saying, you know, they're going to cry sometimes, and you're not going to like it. But if that means you got to eat something that is okay. Because if you don't put any of your needs first with twins, you will never ever look after yourself. And that's going to trickle down. And that's no good for anyone. So I had to relearn I have to actually in my very sad, anxious, not really, you know, really fuzzy how fuzzy you feel. Yeah, you are in that, that place like other than the tiredness, but there's a fuzz that, you know, you can't even make a sentence. Even still, I had to with practice with time, we support and someone checking in and going over this, again, really learn about putting some of my needs first, to then be able to help other people. That's it's a massive, a massive thing. To, for someone to ask you to do that. And then more massive to actually put into practice. That's, it's huge, isn't it? Because that's not how we're not, we're not wired to think that way. We've we've just got to give given given given give. So we kind of do feel, perhaps all mothers always do. But I do you sense in this time when I talk to my mom and you know, women of that age, that the pressure younger parents now put on themselves to be everything for their children. every second and every moment is a teachable moment. And, you know, if you did it this way, they won't have tantrums because they'll have all the food and you know, because you will have practiced these strategies and all of this and you sat with your child and looked him in the eye and all of that, you know, someone's having a meltdown in Kohl's and you've got to get back to work in like half an hour. It's really hard to be that parent. And we have that vision in ourselves. Like I want to be this parent and myself. I wanted to be that parent and then I had new born twins and I thought I knew some some things about having a baby turns out with twins it's a totally different story. And I just did absolute like sleep deprivation doesn't you know and that's what I just you know, I can't even believe I got through and any twin parents is because it's such a. Anyway triplets. quarters don't even single babies are really tricky to and it's, it's separating that like having that difficult baby or that tricky baby does not relate to how well your mothering like, it is not the same thing it's so hard to. And again, you need other people drumming that into you, reminding you and I, you know, I'm lucky that I have, I have those people around me. So I've found my way through and to, you know, not just to an end that big story. Sorry, very long story positive, but I do feel like and not that I wish this on any other mother, ever. But I do feel like the enjoyment I get from my girls. And the joy I have with them now that I had been through that experience of being so down. It really is amplified because I see it. And I remember when I first started feeling better over time, and then you have your bad days again. And then you know it's incremental. But when I actually enjoyed them, I just like cried with happiness. I just thought, oh my gosh, I'm enjoying them. Oh my gosh, like, and I think the appreciation for that was so huge. And I you know, I know there's challenging times ahead, children, but I do, I do have a greater sense of that appreciation for that, you know, enjoyment. And the present illness after feeling so not present. So spacey, so unable to be in the moment because you don't even know where you are. And sometimes you just wished you are asleep. Most of the time. Do not thank you for sharing that. So candidly, I appreciate it. And I'm sure there's a lot of people that listening that are going to kind of take a lot from it. So thank you. Sorry, that that's the only you know, that's what not that I mean, but I do feel like that is the one one blessing of going through that experience is that you were able to help so many other people by sharing yours. And that is the only reason I have you know, I've shared about that in my own in my own space. And you know, I'm very lucky that I've had that support and I just like I said before, I just so hope that other women have that too. And if that means one day when they're having a really bad day and they happen to read something you know, which has happened to me before to you read something on a particularly bad day and might just help you see that evening witching hour, just somewhat a bit differently for that one day. If I can help one person one day by them reading something, then I'm I'm really glad. Yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom, if my mom Alison Newman. After you start to feel, well, you're enjoying these moments and things are feeling feeling improved for you. When did you get that spark that you thought? I'm gonna go in depth again? Well, I wasn't actually feeling much better when I first started thinking about that. Yeah. Yeah, so dancing again, in, in a kind of condensed fashion, which I'm not good at, as you can see it again, was part of me feeling well, again, and I couldn't have known that at the time. Like I said, I really didn't think I would dance again. And the most exercise I would get would be when I was in the girls room, and they might have just like settled and I didn't want to open the door and the light come in. So I'd lie on the floor. And do you know, my pelvic floor exercises, that's that's the extent of where I was at. And that wasn't so I could get back on stage that was just to be a functional person again, and I have a really incredible Women's Health physio, which I also very much recommend to any any woman anywhere, no matter what you've done in your life. But you know, that was something that was just good for me. That was not, I'm just going to start with this because that'll be helpful when I'm dancing. There was no dancing thoughts. I would go over ballets when I was like rocking them to sleep in in their room, or like settling them like sometimes a random step would come out. But I was thinking about my retirement speech more than anything. And then COVID At the time I thought I probably won't even have anything and then I thought that's so sad like After 18 years like that, it just, you know, some people choose to have it that way. And I wouldn't have had a fanfare but I always thought when I retired, I'd have my family there. But yeah, I think about what I'd say. And they're the thoughts that would come and go in my, you know, spacey state that was my dance world. And so it was actually people around me mainly Locky. Because he's so supportive of me and my career. And it would be very easy to say, Oh, this is too hard. Donna, you know, Donna, you know, he tours, obviously, he's very busy with his job. And he loves his job. And, you know, he, you know, that's his dream job. And he is so good at it. It's, you know, we love watching him and but just, you know, the, the, we both have very demanding jobs in the eyes. Yeah, there was never a question of like, are from anyone that my mind was less significant in any way, or that it would be easier if I stopped dancing, because then that would work better for the family or just be easy, at some point, that probably will become part of the reason you know why we shift into a different way of how our family works. But just because I'd had two babies was not a reason for that to happen. So here's the first person who wanted to see me dance again, if that was something I wanted to do. So he he was very supportive over time in his beautiful way, not in your face just a little bit every day. Go in and have the conversation, you've got a contract still, your position is there. It's not trying to get a new job. It's your job. It's your position, have a chat, but not like what how could I talk? This is ridiculous. Don't even think about that. Go in and have a chat with David David Hallberg, our new director. So this was a new director for me, so I'm gonna who doesn't know me. And that was quite daunting in itself. So eventually, by about seven months, the company was in Melbourne at the time, they just had a Sydney season that somehow managed to squeeze in with COVID. And I arranged an appointment and decided to go in and you know, I could have not gone that day, I felt terrible, you know, I was going to miss a feed from the girls. And, you know, they'd never been left do that anyone else? Really? My mom was there lucky. I don't know if lucky was there that day. But yeah, it just all felt too hard. Of course, it's too hard. You know, there's so many other things. When you're in that, like baby space, that's too hard, leaving the house, one of them any variable for someone who is very much struggling with the day to day, a variable is too hard. Like go in and have a chat. So I put, like proper clothes on which I hadn't done and drove my car, which I also hadn't done in a while. And, you know, all of these things, and it felt like stepping out into the world again. And that was incredibly I remember, also being in this state I was, it was a sensory overload all of it, like the light, the sounds, just everything's coming into the carpark going in the left, I felt sick. Coming up, you know, it wasn't like, Oh, I'm home. And this is, you know, this is so lovely. I spent all my life here, it's, I was not in that stage. And also things had really moved on. That building felt different. I'm so glad I did, obviously. And David was very gracious in probably accepting me in that state. And, you know, I'm also a new person to him, and I just kind of flat out said, I've had a really, really rough time, and I didn't think I'd dance again. And he's like, you know, what would you like to talk about? And I said, I just I think I might want to try. You know, it wasn't a hugely confident telling yourself. I might want to try. It's like, what would that look like? I don't know. I've run out. I couldn't look him in the eye. And, you know, I just I was a shell of myself. And he just said, Well, how about you to start somewhere? I said, I don't know what, what I could come back to, you know, I was thinking like roles or seasons or and he's like, just don't even think about that. Just start somewhere, just babysit. And I was like, you know, you feel like you've got to offer something. I'll, I'll work I'll come back and I'll do that or I'll try for that series that just just don't yeah, don't think that far ahead. Just just in me Reality, if I'd actually thought about everything I have to do to get in this building every day, and to tour, I would not have gone in that day at all. So it was absolutely right on all fronts. So then I started coming in. And that was my therapy, I guess I'd come in and do Pilates kind of conditioning exercises that are quite specific what we do here. And, you know, I've done them for years. And I was very lucky that everyone knows me very well here. And in terms of, you know, the artistic health team, know me very well. I know how I function best and they weren't in my face. Some, you know, there's some mums amongst them. And they, they know, they knew instinctively what I needed. Sometimes that was just done. This is done a space, she's coming in today. And she's, you came in today, and I was like, and they're like you came in today. And then I start doing my little toe push up to the theater events. Yeah. And, you know, they could sense the days, I just needed space for myself. And that's essentially what it was. Because if I was home, I was always doing something I couldn't, we just coming back from Jessa, it was different, I could do a lot at home and he was asleep. The girls were still up and down all the time. There was always something to do food to cook a snack to get Jasper to, like, I had to go somewhere to have my that my time. And so that started like that incrementally. Then I joined our like daily training class. And that was, again, usually we work with Megan Connolly, who's our rehab coach, you normally go in with her and you know, do a couple of weeks, just one on one. And she's like, so you're gonna go into class today. And I said, Oh, but like, what are we going to do? And she's like, on in and I just go in there. I was like, no, that's just like, this is a studio with people, other people. And like a teacher and a penis. And I was like, I just, I can't, I can't like so many people in the eye, it really, you know, was a full body experience trying to get myself back into the world. And I did that by coming back into ballet, into something I knew. And that even like, all at that point. And even to vary up to when I did my first shows, I had to think if I don't get to do shows, if I don't get if I stop before I get to the like the goal or the cherry on top that I've this has been a successful worthy process, because this is what needed to happen for me. So it's more about the process rather than the end goal. It was about all those steps, and how that was like your therapy. It was actually it was and my maternal child health nurse had commented on that so much earlier. So how are we going to get you back to work? Like, that's just can't too hard. It's just we're gonna have to think about if you want, but we'll have to think about that. And I was not in that headspace. Whereas someone like her externally so much experience, I think could see pinpoint. This, this woman is going to need even for a short window of time to find a part of herself that has been so not thought about. And so I started in class for a little bit. Some days, I'd have to leave because I was overwhelmed by it wasn't even the ballet, the actual dance and everyone's like, Oh, it looks like you've never left and I'm standing there like a shell of myself and can't even express how different I felt. Physically. I was going through the motions. So and that's what I think is is tricky externally, after 18 month sort of dancing. Twins. i And I don't mean to say this, in a sense, it's precocious, but I was actually just going through the motions giving the actual dancing side of things such little thought because it was actually so much more a mental battle for me to stay in the room. People are there. They're going to look at you sometimes their eyes. Okay, you did it like, yeah, yeah, it was it just Yeah, it's like your body just almost had its own experience there. It knew the muscles knew what to do. It just did its own thing. And you could let it do that. In the meanwhile, the you know, inside your head. All this is happening. And yeah, and it's hard. People don't say that. Like literally, like you said, they said, it's like you never left. So they're only seeing this outside and they're not, you know, seeing the whole picture. So yeah, it's the realizations that come to me when I'm dancing. That's always been the case. But especially in that time and even still, the distance I have from being at home when I'm At the ballet, and when I'm dancing, things come to me and I solve problems in my head. And yeah, you know, I have these epiphany moments all the time about my kids and about mothering. When I'm at the bar. It comes to me then. Ah, so it is there's something about that. And maybe just because I've grown up doing it, and there's live music the first day, when someone started, we have, you know, a live pianist. So they start playing plays, and they improvise every day, all these exercises, and I just, like, my mouth was open, I was just like, oh my gosh, that's right. So I'm gonna just plays music for your day. Someone amazing, just plays music, music all day for you. was a really profound one. But I think I could unravel a lot of what had happened over the last 18 months, by being in that space. Yeah, wouldn't have to do at home for sure. Or even, you know, gone for a run or something it might have might have worked that there was something about, like you said, my body being a little bit on autopilot, that my mental chat could start to unravel a little bit. Okay, the space, it's, it's almost like, like a meditation in some ways that, like, I mean, I know, traditional meditation, you lay down, and then your body's at rest, so your mind can work. But sort of, in that way, like, your body's just doing its thing. You don't have to think about it. And then yeah, all this stuff, you're open to process, like it's a problem solve. And I feel very, I had such like a vehicle actually, that was way too daunting at the start, but actually became, you know, the art form that I've loved forever, actually, was the way into, you know, the new version of me that was all put together. Every kind of come before. Yeah, that's, that's incredible. It's like it truly is a part of your identity. And it just needed it was like that. Yeah, like I keep coming back to this word therapy was and that nurse was was experienced enough to see that, that that was going to be part of your healing was to get that part of your life back again. Yeah. And that's how long you know, who knows, and it's not about that. And I was lucky enough to be able to, after Melbourne, got out of the last longtown last year, we had a gala celebration season in December, it was a 10 day runner shows at the Art Center. And I was lucky enough to be ready at that point. I I'd only just come back full time. And so that was a personal choice, too. I extended my maternity leave beyond the 12 months, because I wasn't ready yet to leave the girls. I wasn't ready to have my schedule dictated to. I still needed to have because everything just took longer. And with twins, it just does. I think for everyone to find their feet for the tweens to settle into life like everything. Yeah, yeah, but certainly I wasn't ready to be after that long fighting to be there and enjoying them to then just evacuate and be at work you know, for 1012 hour days. So I took a really slow slow ride in and that meant I was working Training Training obviously you can't just turn off on day one. So from you know, from when they was eight months maybe not wasn't actually was like 10 months old. That's when I started some physical stuff and then I did all of that on my own time on my own schedule and then the week before shows opened as I'd planned but they everyone knew but I was like that's when I finish things that you've got a week and then a week of shows and I'm going on holiday Yeah, so again like compartmentalizing things like right from the start how lucky was saying just go into a chat and then you had you had David just saying well just try the sword you know it was it's breaking that down because the overwhelm if you think about everything is just too much it's just it's not it's not good yeah. The topic of mum guilt in and I guess everyone has different views. Use of what that is some people think it's a load of rubbish, which is great. Other people have like really relate to it, which is fine. Everyone's different. Have you ever had any experience with that? Or your thoughts about that are definitely have experience with mom guilt. That's something I feel all mums do face. And I will I'm certainly I certainly do. And a lot of the ballet mums here, that's a big one for us. Obviously, feeling guilty all the time serves no one. So I'm aware of that, too, that it's, it's a, it's a sensitive feeling that isn't really helping anyone. But what we do here at the ballet feels very self centered and self absorbed. It's such a giving up form, but our experience of how hard it is and the work we need to put in and the conditioning and the focus. And the I've got to get to the theater at this time. Because I've got to get my hair, I've got to do my makeup, I've got to think about my steps. And all of that changes after you become a man, you minimize everything and into the small amount of time as you can. But there's still the sense that I'm doing something for myself here. Like I'm, I'm focusing on myself, and I want that role. And I want to do that on stage and every one. I want to feel that. And you can't help but think I've got these little people who are like, Hey, Mom, I want you to but yeah, you know, so I very much relate to that. Whilst also understanding it's not really helpful. But there was something that I come back to, and what has often come from people reminding me and then I try to repeat it for myself is that your children, seeing you as a whole person is really important. And your children, especially with what we do seeing, seeing, you're so dedicated and so passionate, and loving something so much. What brought to you is really, really important to especially as a mother. And I think the uniqueness of what we do and touring half the year, the you know, the changeability, that pulling kids out of school or daycare and taking them to Sydney for two months, can feel like a bit of a liability and a bit of a, you know, kind of mixing their life up so much. And you know, with my son, I felt really guilty, he hasn't been able to do regular swimming lessons. And he hasn't been able to do soccer. And you know, I can't always be the one at the school gate. And even though when I was at home with the little girls with my twins, and he started school, when I stood at the school gate, I felt so out of place, I felt, I just felt so out of place. I just, I just I just yeah, it was actually a really uncomfortable feeling. And he didn't actually really care if I was if it was me there or not. Some days he does, and he is but he's also had such a colorful, interesting childhood already. I tried to flip that round, to say actually, he's had exposure to things that other kids haven't had. Yes, they've had playdates regular playdates, they go to soccer every Saturday, and the routine of that, and, you know, maybe the social constancy of that, you know, he hasn't had, but he's also had exposure to so many other things. So in context of my work and knowing it's not forever, knowing at some point, and probably, you know, by the time the girls are at school, I will be at the school gate every day, makes this time even more precious. And, you know, I do hope that, you know, they can see that their mom, you know, in did look after themselves, so that I could look after them. I do hope at some point in their lives, they can, they can see how valuable that was. And I might Santi now at the ballet, and he just had the best home ever so football with with the dancers, and that's something that other kids don't get to do. That's it. Yeah, absolutely. It's about although I think it's um, it relies again, on, you know, routinely reminding yourself of the value that your your art and your work is giving to you, and then how that's trickling down into your family. I definitely have more energy and more, more empathy, more support, more, more valuable time, if I've just had a bit of time for myself. At the moment that time is being spent doing something that I love, which is dancing. And at some point in the future, I have to find something else that that time is for so that that can still trickle down. Yeah, absolutely. You have you have that thing that feels that pick up and then you can you can give to others. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's good. You said about that. Because yeah, one of the things I like to mention is that it's, it is important for children to say, what their mums and dads are doing. I didn't matter what didn't actually mean to ask this, I was about to say something different. But as you mentioned before the girls like see their dad on the telly like, that's just like, did they? Did they make the connection? Do they like this? Yeah, yeah. I mean, probably assisted by the fact that like, hey, look, this study the girls, this is something I think all kids love music and dancing and our all of our kids do, but especially the girls are so absorbed in music and dance. And I mean, maybe some of those genetic I found with Queens, one of the only ways especially when they're early, you know, when they're lying on their little playing mat. That was one thing to keep them both entertained at once, which wasn't holding both of them at once was to lay them on the floor. And I'd put Wiggles, you know, playlists on and dance around like a little crazy person, you know, crazy person and try and sing not as well as their dad. And they would kick their little legs and you know, smile and giggle and that, you know, they obviously had exposure really, really early on to that. And still those particular wiggles that I've obviously drummed into them are their favorites. I you know, I love that they, I love so much, you know, we at 410 Every day we put you know, ABC Kids on and that's when we will design that's our little 10 minutes of you know, TV. They start dancing around and you know, Emma twirls around and they're, they're twirling around and they're trying to actually trying to do a sign language. It's amazing what young babies are picking up because there's me involved like, yeah, it's how they are learning because their music and dance involved. It's so innate. Yeah, I think it's really lovely. Obviously, Daddy's out there too. And that's pretty special. And yeah. We're taking them to the wiggles concert next week. And by we, I mean me. And I can't wait. Because even when they were five months old, I think, you know, I was on the sides with the girls. And my mom and Lulu especially was transfixed, and you know, five months old for 45 minutes. Oh, yeah, totally transfixed. And I think the power of music and dance is so, so beautiful. And I'm so glad they're growing up. So, so all amongst it. Yeah, it is beautiful, isn't it, it's like, like you're saying before, it might not be the, you know, going to soccer every week or the, you know, whatever it might be. But it's you're giving the children such an incredible life, just this exposure to things that other children might not get. And it's just, it's so awesome. It is. And it's challenging, obviously, and logistically, it's a jigsaw puzzle, turn it upside down and back to front and try put it back together again, every day is like that we have so many moving parts of our lives function. were two of us trying to tune out as well. It's just pretty, pretty full on and we're desperate school and trying to keep that consistent. And but it but it is it's it's it's good. I think I always try to remember to this is such a short amount of time. Yet ultimately, it's the best time for it to be like this. Yeah. Jess was starting us kit this year. And he'll he'll he'll do that, you know, he'll do that in years to come. He'll have enough soccer on Saturdays and he will get to your swimming lessons. But this is a unique time where I'm able to still do this. I can't do this again in 10 years time, being the level I'm at and want to be in 10 years time. So I might say you can but I'm, you know, I'm more than every day. I'm aware of that. You know, I do I have the best job in the world. And I get to go on stage and be different people and have world class orchestras playing music for me and do something I felt mostly quite natural doing my whole life. You know, it's it's hard to say no to that. And yes, hopefully my children can benefit from that too. Yeah, absolutely. I've got a wrench and the there was a beautiful article. Sydney Morning Herald where they took all these amazing photos of your family dressed up, and there's this one photo. I think it's Lulu. Like you've got this beautiful dress on and you're holding it and she's like, whatever like her facial expression. It's like, Oh, come on. I just every time I look at that, I just think she's in this world she gets, she knows what's going on. And she's like, Yeah, I'm in front of the camera again. With that particular photo, I know you're talking about it was one of her actually smiling. Yeah, they didn't using it. So when I saw that particular shot, when she's looking at, yeah, like, whatever. I thought it's a bit of a shame. But for whatever reason, maybe my leg looked better. Or, you know, the dress looks, you know, had a bit more flow or something. But I yeah, I did think that oh, interestingly enough, she's the one who loves her dress, and you put it on and she doesn't actually turned around. I just find those things. So interesting. Yeah. I don't know what Mommy does. Really. They don't. They haven't been able to come in most of my friends here at work. haven't even met the girls because of COVID. And, yeah, we're still very careful here, obviously. So those sorts of things aren't allowed. But yeah, they actually only know dancing through what they know themselves and through Wiggles. Um, but it's I love watching them just like, you know, dance along. Yeah, yeah. No, I just love I had to mention that. It's really funny. She's, she's really theatrical one. Currently in our Melbourne season of Anna Karenina, which was meant to be in the 2020 season, but has been postponed several years. So it's so lovely to have been able to get the this ballet on here. It actually made it to Adelaide last year and a little sneaky little week. It's a big, bold, intense drama. So beautiful, amazing costumes, scenery, a real modern day story of such a classic novel, obviously. So we're performing out here now. And we move that to Sydney, in April. Yeah, for three weeks. And we open also in Sydney in May a massive production called Kunstkammer, which is a whole huge evening of work. It's an amazing show from Netherlands dance theater and dt, which is the premier absolute, contemporary dance creative Maverick company from the last 60 something years. So this concept of Karma is a collection of incredible, four different choreographers who came together to create this incredible work, and there's so much in it. So it's a big undertaking for the company, but an absolute gift for us. No one else in the world has performed this ballet. So to have this in Australia is like having, you know, the rarest gem. So we're currently working on that at the moment, which is really exciting. You know, the some of the choreographers, I never thought I would ever be in the same room as them. Last year when we started workshopping and are just learning the early bits and I thought this is already enough like day one I've seen in the room with Paul Lightfoot. I never thought that would happen. This is unbelievable. So that's so exciting. We're doing that in Sydney in May. We bring that to Melbourne in June. So Melbourne gets to see that too. And then we open a ballet called Harlequinade here, which is a great commedia dell'arte, ballet, slapstick kind of comedy, but really clever, lots of dancing. Really funny, a real family sort of fun piece, which I'm really excited about. It's the sort of dancing that I get really excited by it's virtuoso, kind of pumping and turning and lots of fast movement but also lots of comedic timing and storytelling, which you know, I think is challenging but so, so rewarding. And then we have to finish off the first half the year we have our Adelaide season actually of counterpoint which is double bill, a double bill of Raymonda and which is a classical to to act. And then I got, I got artifacts, we really emphasize artifact suite, which is kind of like, again, a ballet that you know, the Eastern invite to have in their repertoire is a real coup. Yeah, that pushes dancers to like next level. So a whole lot of work. So, so you are performing something but then learning something else at the same time. Like you're doing different man that must does that screw with your head a bit, though, that you're like, which character am I today? That if you're doing the same dance, but several roles in the same dance that is quite tricky for the brain. Yeah, but I find the role is in the music. So whatever musics on it just getting to Yeah, we only did we did two versions of Swan Lake back to back. And that was a bit like, Oh, which one are we in? This one was modern was restoration, or, Oh, it's kind of similar, but not quite hit it in a music. But again, that's a skill that you kind of have to pick up along the way. And that's the challenge as well. But yeah, it's that's the sort of thing that I think people don't realize they do. Yeah, I never realized that till you just said that then, because I think musically, we're certainly my experience, you've got a show coming up. So you work on all this stuff for that show, then that show finishes, then you start for your next thing. But your world is just constantly constantly going, revolving door. And the different dance styles really challenge your body in different ways. And it's often when you start a new dance style, like as in a new piece of repertoire, it often you get quite sore or a bit, you know, using different muscles to do what you have been doing, and it feels a bit not quite the same as last night, and you're all caught up to my coin. How do I do that today? It is a constant challenge in that respect. But also it's the richness of the work we get to perform in the company here is that it's so diverse. And we actually are all very versatile dancers and very capable of that. So yeah, yeah, there was always lots to look forward to. And that's why you know, if you're not in a season this season heavily, you're there's something coming up always to think about. So we're very lucky. It's like a feast for us here. Everyone's very jealous overseas, how many shows we do? Talking about the kids like the dancing, I've worked in childcare, that's my day job. And I've certainly had a lot of wiggles over the years. But like it, they will that's what they want to hear the kids like, oh, we have this computer that we set up the music and and we have different music for sleep time. And anytime anyone walks over there we go squiggles or we will lose or they'll just they'll just start doing actions and they just love it. And same, like you said about the sign language. Like it's just becoming more mainstream a part of culture. Because of that, that, you know, the AMA, and it's like, it's just wonderful. It's, there's so there's so much like education value in what they're doing. It's not like, you know, they're not just a bunch of people to stenciling and having a party. It's like, they're actually educating and it's our like, my eldest son, he grew up with the originals. And then it was lovely to meet everyone in a different way. And some new faces when I had Digby, he's, he's six. So yeah, the year is and it's just a wonderful thing that it's still going and they've got the new faces now and it's just it's a wonderful part of our culture, I think. Yeah, yeah. It's, um, it's a it's a pretty special experience to be able to, you know, share that with children. And I do think, like I said, Before, they children just learn so innately through through music and dance without even knowing they are. And I think that probably goes across the ages and that goes into, you know, children who are well about, you know, three, four or five years old who love all those sorts of songs and things and so much scope for for learning with music and dance and how that can help all kids and all sorts of education kind of settings. With a ballet you know, we have storytime ballet which is, you know, the ballet for kids and Jasper seen those shows and a lot of kids come to those shows and you know, that is also what sparks a lot of children's in imaginations and a lot of what becomes the future generation of ballet dancers here and overseas, because they started at that first storytime, ballet performance, you know, that their mom or their grandma or someone took them to when they were three, four or five, six? Yes, spark something of that experience that took them somewhere. And then that takes them on their life to, you know, what they might like to become? And I'm sure that's how it happened with me like I just How can you not get take with that whole experience? And I think, you know, with ballet and music you that's pretty special to have that spark at such a young age and to play a part in that little person. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. That's it. That's a beautiful note to end on. I think. Thank you so much, Donna, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on. Thank you for giving me so much time and, and chatting. So candidly, I've really, really enjoyed it. I have to thank you for giving me the space to you know, just like I said, I hope I can always help. The only reason I'd ever share anything about what I'm doing in my life or at home is that I can help someone else. And it's really lovely that ballet dancers now have the choice to become mums. And that, you know, we're working through this space of working out how they kind of feed and inspire each other. So thank you for giving me the space. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum

Suzanne Culberg Australian writer + coach S2 Ep65 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) This week I welcome Suzanne Culberg to the podcast. Suzanne is an author, coach and speaker from Sydney Australia, and a mum of 2 children. Suzanne is known as The ‘Nope’ Coach who helps over-givers and people pleasers learn to say ‘No’ without feeling like a Bitch. Suzanne is a memoirist, and she wrote her first book The Beginning is Shit reflecting on her experience with over eating and weight loss. The lessons she learned about why she was eating was the catalyst to drive Suzanne to help others. Suzanne’s passion for helping women is fuelled by her own experiences of over-giving, over-consuming, and over-doing everything. She’s on a mission to not only help women set boundaries for themselves but also to make boundaries normal. We should be saying ‘No’ more often. Through her signature online program Why W8? Suzanne has helped hundreds of women break the cycle of putting themselves last and instead build the confidence to set boundaries. Suzanne is a Certified Practitioner of Neuro Linguistic programming (NLP) and holds a Bachelor of Medical Science (Honours). She also has Certificates III and IV in Fitness, and is a Certified Sacred Depths Practitioner. Connect with Suzanne website / instagram / facebook Connect with the podcast website / instagram If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. My guest this week is Suzanne Kohlberg. Suzanne is an author, coach and speaker from Sydney, Australia, and a mum of two children. Suzanne is known as the note coach who helps over givers and people pleasers Learn to say no without feeling like a beach. Suzanne is a memoirist, and she wrote her first book, The beginning is shit. Reflecting on her experience with over eating and weight loss. The lessons she learned about why she was overeating was the catalyst to Dr. Suzanne to help others. Suzanne's passion for helping women is fueled by her own experience of over giving over consuming and overdoing just about everything. She's on a mission to not only help women set boundaries for themselves, but to also make boundaries normal. We should be saying no more often through her signature online program. Why wait? Suzanne has helped hundreds of women break the cycle of putting themselves last and instead build the confidence to set boundaries. Suzanne is a certified practitioner of neuro linguistic programming, and holds a Bachelor of Medical Science. She also has certificates three and four in fitness and is a certified sacred depths practitioner. Please music you'll hear today is from my new age ambient music trio, LM Joe which is myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband John. And apologies for the quality of my voice at the moment. I do have a bit of a sniffle. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Lovely to meet you. It is lovely to meet you. So Mount Gambier in South Australia. Is it? Yeah, right down the bottom. We're about 20 minutes from the coast. So we're like south southeast corner really close to them. Yeah, we're about to you. I'm in Kellyville. So Western Sydney, an hour out of CBD. Okay. Yeah, right. I I've never been to Kellyville to the UK. What's funny, I only moved here three years ago, my mum grew up in Sydney. And then we moved to Tassie. My husband, I've moved around quite a bit. But anyway, mums like killer whales like farmland, and I'm like, might have been 40 years ago. But now it's very much suburbia. Right? And only 40 minutes from Sydney. So I'd like be pretty, pretty intense sort of building. Sort of, it's actually awesome. It's such a lovely kind of like suburbia plays. It's funny because I grew up in Tassie, and then we've lived in Kingaroy. So also rural. And when we first moved here, because I'm not much of a driver in traffic, and a friend invited me to drummoyne I didn't think to look where it was. And I was like, I assumed it'd be like this, but I had to end up going at the Cross city tunnel over the Harbour Bridge. And, like my anxiety was like, just not good. Yes. Welcome along. It's really lovely to have you and I I'd love you to just start by sharing about what it is that you that you do and what you create. Oh, I love this because I've never really to be honest, consider myself creative. And it was like, Yeah, but I've written a book. So I grew up in a very family that was kind of against the arts. It was like there's no money in that. And yeah, but I'm like closet creative. And I really love to journal and I write a weekly newsletter which you're technically supposed to be at my about my business, but usually it's just like a journal entry. Last week I wrote about my child's first concert in the choir. And I love the responses because like they're right there with you. It's like yeah, I am creative. All my life people said you should write a book So I eventually did and I self published that last year. And I have a few others in the works. But it's yeah, it's a it's a commitment to put a book out there. But I do. Yeah, I've written a newsletter every week now. Rain, hail or shine for five years. Oh, well done. Thank you. That's an achievement, isn't it? It's certainly yes. So you say that your sort of family were against the idea of being, you know, having making a career when you're a child, were you sort of, were you doing art and creative stuff when as you were growing up? I wanted to so I, it's funny. I'm an introvert and a socially awkward person. But at one stage, I wanted to be an actor. Yeah. My parents are like, so few people make it like, what's it's interesting, what's modeled to you. And I'm sure they had the best of intentions. But it was kind of like, if you can't do really well at something, why do it at all? So yeah, not the kind of attitude that I want to inspire in my children. But anyway, I remember at one stage, trying out for a play, and we lived really, and there was no bus service out to our house. And I got in and my parents were like, well, how are we going to? He gonna go to this? Because it was two weeks at the Playhouse Theatre in Hobart. Oh. And anyway, a friend also got in and her mom, they had four kids, what was one more, so I just lived with them for the two weeks that the show was on. And it was so fabulous for me because I'd always lived out in the country. So to live with this buses, and you can actually go to things instead of having to sit outside your parents work after school. It was just fabulous. And yeah, I loved I loved it, though, as I said, socially awkward, and that not really was ever going to be a career. But I do like to dabble. Oh, good on. Yeah. It's interesting isn't those blocks that we get from other people in our lives? And I mean, I've got a had an interesting one recently, with my husband regarding my work, and it was the same the words that just came out of your mouth literally the same as is like, well, how are we going to make that work? And it's like, well, can't we just be pleased that this is happening, you know, look at look at the achievement level of something. And then it's like, the rest can work itself out later, is interesting that like, that's the initial response. I'm always really fascinated by what's going on for that person to make them. That's the that's the first thing they say, You know what I mean? He will those his story I read once, it's like a parable. And it's about this gentleman who fishes for a living. And this like lawyer or businessman or something comes along to him and goes, well, you could, you know, get extra boats and hire a team and charter and all this sort of stuff. And he's like, to what end? And he's like, well, so then like, you know, you can retire and go fishing. And he's like, but that's what I'm doing now. So I think sometimes we get caught up in the hustle and bustle of, you know, how much is this gonna make or how's this going to support us or whatever, but we're miserable. And the thing is, we always tend to like make do not in a like, sad way. But you know, there's there's a joy that we miss when we're chasing $1 or chasing a certification or achievement of some sort. I definitely agree with that. I feel like our capitalist societies got so much to ask for in that respect is 100% D. So you mentioned that you've written a book and you've got more in the works, what does the sort of what are your books about? And then memoirs, and I laugh at when people say memoirs is in plural, and I'm like, it's never been official, but I love Glennon Doyle before she was going well, she's always been claimed or before she was famous. I came across her with her first book, which was carry on warrior. And then I read Love warrior and then obviously I've read untamed but they're all kind of memoir style, like the all little snippets of her life. And so my first book is a weight loss memoir. It's about my journey with weight and body image. And the second one will be a business memoir, like from one printer to entrepreneur, like the real thing, not the six months to six figures in six steps. Yeah, nonsense. Right. slogging the reality of final one I have in the works for now that there may be more because as I said, I've moved around a lot. So I could write about that as well. It would be a parenting one like my, I love the harasser gene and a few other people who write about like real parenting, not the thing. And my kids actually have, I think, a bigger following than I do. The number of people who like I follow you for your son. So yes, he's destined for the stage. But yeah, like, and people have said to me a number of times that I should write something like funny things my kids say, because I often put the little snippets on Facebook purely for me. So when the memories come up, I'm like, Oh, I remember that. But then they just have kind of taken off. I think the last thing I shared with him had nearly 100 likes so I was like something of mine. 10 likes something if my son 100. Let's go. Yeah, so you mentioned your son, how many children do you have? towards you? You have two children? Yep. So Xanthi is nine. She's a girl, I say because the names are unusual. And beautiful name. Thank you and Casimir. He is seven. Oh, that's a lovely name to what they like unusual names gonna say were they inspired by like literary or anything particular? Well, my husband and I both wanted unusual names. So not commonplace. So we like read through the baby book and highlighted ones and finding ones we both agreed on was the biggest challenge. And Santi We just liked them baby book. But then Casimir is also it's French was also polish. And in Poland, it's spelt Cazal own France is spelt kazimier with a K and is it spelled it with a C and S has actually been like seven King customers in Poland. But it was also a character and a couple of books that I've read. So we liked that name. And then they've both got like more traditional middle names. If for whatever reason they didn't like their first name, they could just go by their middle name. That's cool. It's funny you say I don't know how I fell upon it the other day on the net, as you do, you know, you just see these random stories, there was this lady that has changed her child's name. He's 18 months and she changed it because it didn't suit him anymore or didn't suit the child that she thought he would become. So she named him Aspen because she thought he was going to be like a outdoorsy kind of child and take after his father. And his clear opposite. So they've changed his name to Luke and sloth would like to start I don't know, I just don't I it's really weird, because I don't know I don't understand it. I think I just I don't know. James fascinate me. It's really interesting because mites of mine, I'm the youngest of four. My name is Suzanne, and my sisters all have names that start with C. And I was going to be Korean. But then my sisters are like, Oh, I know someone like that. And she's not a nice person. And every name my mum came up with one of them because they were all significantly older than me. And in the interest like, is it a boy after your father? If it's a girl after me, Don Oh, wow. So I was like, I just I know I wanted a name. But then I didn't want any of that nonsense of people telling me I didn't like it. So I didn't tell anyone. Neither my husband nor I did. And my daughter was not quite two. When Cassidy was born, she knew it. And I can still remember my family asking her but she couldn't quite pronounce it so that she was telling it was catch me. It was really funny. Oh, that's hilarious. On names, like my youngest is called DP, which is it's not unusual. It's just not very common. And I deliberately didn't test that out on anyone because I thought I might get a lot of pushback from that. And then I'll feel uncomfortable about it. So my husband and I sort of didn't say the same to anyone. But then when he was born, and we said, oh, well, it's a boy. It's Digby, the midwife said, Oh, I've got a friend with a dog called DB. And I've just got a Thanks for telling me that you know, like, it's not necessary. Listen to one of your episodes. You mentioned dig because one of my friends when we were pregnant, our children had the same due date. Her Yeah, how you give your baby a name. Fenty was just Jelly Bean. But her son was Digby while she was pregnant. And I thought that was so funny. I ended up calling him something else. Yeah, sometimes I still refer to him as Digby, the midwife he said a dog and Cassidy was born. And I said to the midwife, she's like, Oh, cashmere, like the sweater. But then I thought Oh, that'd be one. So After he gets a quite a bit actually cashmere, and he gets embarrassed about it like you can always correct somebody on the pronunciation like that is your name. So once you do it politely, yeah, absolutely. Oh my gosh, yeah. And giving the children that, that empowerment to set their boundaries, I think from a young age is incredibly important. That's certainly not something I had as a child. So I think it's great to be able to give them give them that as their when they're little. On your Instagram bio, you've got there that you help women say no, without feeling like a bitch. Can you expand on that for you? You're allowed to work on the show wasn't sure? Sometimes in a way that feels good. So I'm like, okay, that just sounds nicer. So it's funny, you mentioned boundaries. Because growing up and I had never made this connection. This is why I love being on podcast, because the things that come up, the only boundary that was instilled in me was my name. Because my mother had the same name as me and stuff I remember at school. This teacher always called me Susan. And I always corrected her and said it was Suzanne. And when one time she's like, Well, I'm just going to call you Susan. And I'm like we can but I'm not going to answer. She called my mom, like the only time in my school history because I was a bit of a teacher's pet. When my mum got called in. And then she came, she had to leave work. And my mum was like, Okay, well, what's this about? And a teacher told her that my mum was like, I took time off work for this. That's not cheeky, that's her name. felt like the only time in my life and I'd forgotten about like, I remember, but I've forgotten to we're having this discussion. But ya know, I wasn't conditioned to have boundaries, it was children should be seen and not heard. And always be respectful. And, and the school motto, the school I went to was others first yourself last. Oh, like that's a bit much reflect the things that you just take as a child and you don't question. Yeah. So basically, I think that by saying yes to everybody else, and no to myself, is a what have led to me over eating a lot. Because it was kind of like food doesn't talk back food doesn't care. food's always my friend. And yeah, the less space I allowed myself to take up with my personality, because I couldn't say no, and I didn't want to be an imposition. The more I took up physically, because it just had to have an outlet. So when I originally went into business, I was funny, I was an accidental entrepreneur, I basically had issues at the beginning. I'm not creative. I started a Facebook page that was just chatting about what it is that I was doing a newsletter list that's just talking about my life. And then people were like, Oh, can you work with me? Okay, and then I got certified as a coach. And I had the most fun that first year of my business in terms of what lit me up. And then I was like, well actually should like make this profession and the business coach was like, What do you Nish and what's your people don't just ask to work with you. Like you have to make offers. Like that's been my entire business. Yeah, never made an offer. Yeah, um, so then I niched into weight loss because I'd had a big weight journey, but I must admit, I've never been passionate about weight loss because it's more about what's going on internally. The weight the number the size of the clothes. Yes, that is a big deal when you're struggling with it. But you can force yourself to lose weight and still be miserable and unhappy. So anyway, I recently I'm in the process my website's still coming have at the time recording this anyway. rebranding to the nope, coach and helping people say no women say no without feeling like a bitch. Yeah. Because you know, when we say yes to others, and no to ourselves, there's that that resentment, the seed of resentment, like and I just think it's so much better to say an honest no. Then a resentful Yes. And you're baking the cookies now do it and it's about how to do that in a way you know, without feeling like a bitch and in a way that honors both of your needs. Because I'd much rather if I'm like, Hey, Alison, I'm having a Tupperware party. You want to come and you're like, Suzanne, I can't stand Tupperware but if you have a I don't know. I'm not really into the things that I've seen and you can feed me come on over like that to me so much nicer then you saying? Yeah, sure. I'm going to come canceling on the day when I've cleaned my house and made all the food. So I think sometimes we think and they ended up The example of it wasn't I can still remember when I was growing up. I thought my mum liked white linen, the perfume, I saved up for it. And for every Mother's Day and I thought I was so amazing. And I eventually found out she's like, I can't stand it. Oh, I didn't you tell me yes ago like this was money and I thought, and then when my kids, I've got my own kids now. And my daughter bought me something for Mother's Day, it was like a hand cream thing. And I said to her, I love this. Thank you so much. Please don't buy me things like this again, because I've got a sensitive smell. There's some things that I like to buy on my own. And I remember my mom like raking over the coals and saying how horrible it was. And I said no horrible is accepting something for two decades. And then telling me you didn't like it. It's that fear of offending people, isn't it? It's, we've got a hold this, this is something that's become really evident that when we're recording this, the Queen passed away in the last few days. And I feel like it's brought up all this stuff about doing the right thing and be seen to be doing the right thing. So everybody thinks you're good. And I don't I just this that English, stiff upper lip sort of behavior that, you know, keep calm and carry on. It's like, No, you can actually be honest with people, it might be a little bit uncomfortable. When you first say actually, sorry, I don't want to go out for tea with you. Because I haven't seen you in 10 years, and I don't really feel comfortable reconnecting in that way. Everyone goes, Oh, that's like, well, that avoids uncomfortableness for everybody in the future. You know, if someone says, Yeah, sure, I'll come out for tea. And then next time, they say, oh, let's all catch up next month, and it becomes this great big thing. And you're going I don't want to say these people I've moved on I've grown or whatever it might be any situation. That's Brene Brown her quote, choose discomfort over resentment. So it's uncomfortable to say in the moment, no, or no, thank you, or not right now. But then there's the you know, the resentment where you get stuck, because the thing is, so like, it's say, the movies too, if you're like, you're gonna go see this. It's like, actually, I don't like horror, or I don't like whatever it is, but if it was something else, because then it's really clear. And another thing Brene Brown says he's clear, he's kind. So I would much rather like you know, and I think it also to the thing with saying no, without feeling like a bitch, a lot of us are over givers, like we give and give and give to others. And we're unable to receive. And I think that's why we over consume over eat over, stay up late over watch Netflix. And you know, it's kind of like, well, when we can actually say no, and not over gift to others, then we can start giving to ourselves. And instead of having passion projects, littering every available space in our house that we don't actually make time to do, we can do the things that we want to do, rather than doing the things that are expected of us. Because also to sometimes say I said to you, Hey, you want to go and see a movie and I'm actually not contributing worse. I honestly would not be offended. I'd rather that's I was talking to a client recently. And sometimes it just takes someone to point it out to you. She went to a friend's house, her best friend had just bought a coffee maker, the Caribbean best friends with her best friend would know. But anyway, I digress. She's like, do you want to a coffee or whatever? My client doesn't drink coffee. And she didn't want to offend her. So she says she draw. And then she's trying to drink it. Because she was I couldn't I couldn't drink was that bad? Yeah. And the person said, Oh, what's wrong? And then she admitted, I don't actually drink coffee. And she's like, why don't you say I could have made you a hot chocolate? Like, wow, oh, anywhere. And people say hey, do you want to drink? I used to in the past always say no, because we're conditioned. Don't take anything. Don't ask for anything or whatever. I say, What have you got? Yeah, the thing is, I don't want to be demanding and say like, if I'm a you know, I only drink hot chocolate. We don't have any. What do you have? Yeah, open it up. I don't eat meat. And I used to get really nervous and uncomfortable at restaurants, asking if thing was in particular things. And I got over that pretty quickly. Because I once had an experience where I'd asked what was in a particular source or can't think what it was. Oh, it was it a Thai restaurant, it was in some sort of like a soup, like a broth. And I didn't ask and as I was eating it, it was like, I am pretty sure this is like fishing or whatever. And I thought, right, this is this is a lesson G Alison that you need to actually open your mouth and say, so now I don't care. I just say a sheltered from the roof. And if there's nothing else I say, I'll just eat a plate of vegetables so you can stay with vegetables and that'll be fun. Yeah, but being scared to actually honor yourself. Like as a kid when I grew up, I was so afraid to even you know, I'd be at the back of a line waiting and sharp and I get to the front of the line and I'd be so nervous to even just ask for what I wanted. Like, just I've got my dad he pretty sure I got it from my dad. He would walk backwards and forwards past this little deli in this small town where he lived, waiting for them to notice him. So they've let him in because he was too nervous to go in by himself. So it's like, we've all got these little things that we're carrying around. And it's great that, you know, you're offering women that opportunity to do the work to move past that. And then perhaps not pass that on to the next generation. So we're breaking those those habits that have continuously come down. I think that's been what's the most important thing for me not passing my habits on to my children, because children learn through modeling, not what we tell them. So by me modeling having really clear boundaries and me modeling, asking for things, and then also dealing with the disappointment, because just because you asked for something doesn't mean it's going to be a yes. So it's funny with both my kids and my clients, I'm like, you guys can ask me for whatever you want. Don't expect to Yes, though, like, negotiate? Absolutely. So yeah. Yeah, I love that. That's really powerful isn't it? So in your experience, and what was it? How did that sort of play out for you personally, then through it through? Or how did it start for you to sort of realize that your behaviors were connected to the way that you were eating the way you were using food? How did that sort of spark for you? It? Well, they say hindsight, life's leap forward, but understood backward. So I'd been a lifelong Dieter, my parents put me on my first diet when I was four. Oh, that's spoken about in the book. I have to send me your address later, I will not post your copy. Yes. And so I knew how to diet and I knew how to lose weight. And I'd lost and gained in excess of 500 kilograms in my life. Like, I'm, I, I'm good at it. But I was like, there must be something else going on here. Like I'm a fairly smart person. Like, what, what else is beyond? Because the thing is, so many of us know what to do, eat less, move more. It's not that hard. But we just don't do it. Like, why do we eat when we're not hungry? What are we really hungry for? And if true physical body hunger, hunger isn't the issue foods not going to solve it? Yet we we go like most of us are really good all day. And then at night, especially once you have kids and the kids go to bed, start going into town, or for me now my tell is when I buy something for the kids. It's like, yeah, that's totally for you. But it's kinda like, when we don't do anything for ourselves. So like, we make the plans. So we've got a fridge full of vegetables that are wilting, while we buy cheap and cheerful because it's just easier to keep the peace, or we've got the gym membership. But we know that kids don't want to go in the crate, or they're going to cry. So we like just don't go. And, and I believe like giving and receiving. And like inhaling and exhaling, they're paired, you can't have one without the other. So over giving, saying yes to your kids, the school, your parents, your neighbor, your husband, your friends, is paired with over consuming. So so many people think I've just got no willpower, or I can't control myself or whatever. And it's like, it's because you say no to yourself all day, every day. That in the evening, it just levels out and the body is just like nope, so this and then with that then leads into this big shame spiral. So it's really how many of us do have passion projects and love. Creativity is one of them art or things that we've been conditioned as well because you can't make a career out of it. Why bother? Or because someone else's is better than yours. Like, I have my two children they're only two years apart. But my my son's still at the age where whatever he draws he thinks is the best thing ever. And my daughter's reached that critical age where she's like, but hers is looking better or the you know, that kind of thing. And we still have the part of his inside that wants to draw a purple horse with foreheads and glitter and that's it. But we don't indulge that because we don't have time yet. But then we have time to stay up to 2am binge watching shows and eating. So so often when I say to People like the secret not so secret is to actually indulge those passions. And they're like, Well, I don't have time, or money or space, or this or that or the other. And it's like, but you've got four hours to, you know, scroll Facebook and watch cat videos and boom, scroll. It's like, yeah, you do have the time, you just not purposing it in a way. And it's not gonna be like a switch that you can understand intellectually. But it's like actually making that time in small pockets during the day. Like, it was funny. This morning, I was in a funk. And I was like, I just want to eat chocolate, like nothing else. It's like, what do I really understand son, I just say, five minutes to breathe. I'm like my husband, he take the kids. And I come back here, and I'm ready to go. But normally, we wouldn't allow ourselves that. And I think the other reason eating is so easy is because we don't have to read or create or sculpt or paint, but we got to eat. So we tend to not have as much guilt associated with that because we need to survive. So once you you developed this understanding of how your behaviors or thoughts were affecting the way you're eating, you're talking about little changes, over what sort of timeframe were you able to sort of implement this, like, I've got this, I hate these, you know, six week gym, you know, come and lose so many kilos. And we're like, I just test them. I was involved in the fitness industry for many years as an instructor, and then I took a break, and then came back and instructed in a different way, which I loved. But I'm very, very aware of the way that certain industries will latch on to people's insecurities, and will make them think that if you go hard for this short period of time, sure you, you might lose a few kilos, and you'll feel really empowered and amazing. But then you can't sustain this, you cannot go to the gym twice a day, for the rest of your life. And it's not, it's not good for you, it's not good for your family, your relationships, anything around you. So was that sort of on your mind, too, that it wasn't going to be a quick fix. It was something that implementing your life and sort of see how it changed over a period of time. 100% Someone who read my book recently and sent me a message was like, the part I loved. Whereas you're like, I'd rather be fat forever. Then keep doing this to myself. Yeah. And it's like, it's it's hilarious, because now I have a program not targeted at weight loss. It's over consuming in whatever way we do it. Because anyway, I digress. But originally, I opened that as a membership for the very reason that you just touched because six week eight week challenges, like I was already dreaming about the Mac has been John is going to have at the end, and how you lose the weight is how you keep it off. And none of these things are sustainable, and they profit and benefit from the fact that you praise them. Like this thing is the best thing ever. When I'm on it, I lose weight. And then you self blame yourself. I'm the fat lazy fuck who can't keep doing it. Yeah, yeah. So that's what I'm from. And I never wanted my business being that way. But what I found, interestingly about having a membership rather than a program, is people would get to a point where it was time for them to move on. Like they had spent enough time they kind of just slunk out like there was guilt or whatever. Like no, let's celebrate. And like you know, and also to sometimes what should have been a graduation became a divorce when people stayed too long. So I actually re adjusted my business and now it is a 10 week program. I just delivered the last call of the current round today, where the difference in the in the last week we celebrate we harvest like what have we done over these last 10 weeks? And what I love it because every time I run it, we get to that point and there's a people who are always like, cringing or shattering or feeling so guilty because I thought I was going to and I'm like no, let's nip that go hard or go home stuff in the bud. Because I believe it's like you when you're a kid you play that game warmer and colder. Someone finds something and you go What am I what my heart heart? Well, if you are used to doing this challenge type things where it's all or nothing and you get to the end and you're like I didn't go hard. It's like colder, colder, colder, freezing like you're telling the universe Like, what's the point and then you're saying to yourself, I'm just gonna binge on everything and then get so sick of myself, I start again, like, that's not good. Whereas if you get to the end of the 10 weeks and you're like, Okay, you know, I listened to two of the 10 modules was eight modules. I turned up to a call I did one action is like warmer, warmer, warmer, warmer. And that gives us the momentum. So that you asked, and I got on a whole tangent, but releasing the weight took me three years. Yeah, right. So sometimes people will be like, Oh, that's so long. But when you're there, it's like, it doesn't matter. The time is gone anyway. And it stayed off. Like I'm a little bit heavier right now. I'll be honest, COVID hasn't been the kindest, I don't want any more, because I don't want any inanimate object telling me what I should think about myself anyway. Yeah, tell him my clothes. But it's kind of like it's you only ever hear now. Whereas when you force yourself to eat miso soup in shakes and go to the gym four hours a day, yeah, you're gonna shed a lot of weight. But really, it's water and muscle as well, anyway. But as soon as you actually eat again and calm, it's all gonna come back. And that's no way to live that's on or off. So let's see, yeah, this all or nothing approach? Yeah, no, I love that. And it's not. And when you're talking about, you know, your, the content that you're presenting to people, I'm guessing this isn't, you know, go for a run or do some squats or whatever this is all what's going on in your mind and working on yourself. I don't actually give them a prescription as in, here's what you do. I help them uncover what it is for them. Because I like that saying the same water that softens a potato hardens and egg. So whenever you do a program, there'll be some people who get great results, and other people who get nothing. And then some will be like, Well, you didn't cheat it or you didn't try hard enough, we did this, but your body is just not the same as their body. So it's about finding like the habits and the things that you want to cultivate that work for you. Like one of the people in my current round is a writer, like a professional writer who publishes books, like why and to, but one, I count myself as a writer for evermore, because I've done one, she's a traditionally published body of work type person. And the penny habit that we're working on for her is just writing for. Because the thing is, you sit down, you go, Oh, I'm gonna write for an hour, and then our half an hour, and then I'll do it tomorrow. So it literally she has to open her thing and write the date. And then from there, we can keep it going. Because what we tend to do is we like set our goal exercise, writing, meditating, whatever, like 45 minutes or nothing. And then six out of seven days a week, we ended up with nothing. Yeah. Whereas if you made it really, really small, like write the date, or for my walking on its go to my mailbox, which is 12 steps from my house, you usually keep going because you've got your shows, or you've got into the rhythm. So the the work we do in the program isn't like a secret thing. It's, you know, cultivating these habits that we do consistently and persistently, and looking at our resistances because we've all joined something, this is gonna be the thing. Two weeks later, you're like, No, next thing. Exactly. And I guess that the importance that you're talking about is you make it, you tailor it to your own life. It's not like you're getting these rules shoved out, you have to do this, you have to do this. And then it's like, Whoa, it just becomes overwhelming. It's like you look at yourself, you look at your life and where those changes and adjustments can be made. And that's different. We have different numbers of kids, we have different jobs. We live in different locations the world because the thing is my pet peeve, The Biggest Loser like I was always obsessed with going on the sharks, I thought that would change my life. Why did they not all but almost all of them gain weight when they go home? Like what is with that? It's because when you go into a show, or in my book I wrote about when I went to fat camp was a health retreat, but I call it fat power. While you're there, you've got no other responsibilities. You don't have to work. You don't have to show up. You don't have family, you don't have drama, you don't have internet, you don't have anything. He's just there to focus purely on you. And then you have this wonderful time and you go home and you're like, I'm going to keep this up. And then you've got real life. So the thing about the program that I run, like every round, there'll be people who are disappointed. It always pulls on my heartstrings. But we have life stuff goes on. And I've caught my program. Why wait? Because what are we waiting for? There's never going to be the perfect time. Oh, there's people who get sick kids who get unwell. You know, some people home away from home for the first time this round. We had somebody moving out and there's empty nest and all this stuff. That's life, but not as in like, let's just wait but as in like this, we are a cog in this and how can we make these things that become part of our life rather than putting your life on hold to fix ourselves? We're not broken. Yes, yeah, no, that's really valid. I think that's that's something that I spoke about on a podcast. I was a guest on it last week about we've all got this idea that, Oh, when this happens, we'll be happier or I have to wait for this to happen. And then I can do that and then I'll be happier. It's like, there is no perfect time. It's literally life is just rolling and it just keeps going and there's always going to be something like you say the kids get sick and throw things out the window and whatever it is there's always something happening. Yeah, and I guess that's the thing you touched on earlier about that horrible motto of your primary school where, you know, putting yourself last, like, as a mother, I feel like we're conditioned to do that. It's like, everybody else has to be happy before us, and our needs come last. And I, I, I hate that so much. And I find that talking to women on this podcast, it's, it's imperative and important and almost essential that they do put themselves first and think of themselves as worthy of, of their commitment and their time and with their art practice, you know, but I feel like women who feel like they don't have that something, that passion project or that whatever, can sort of get lost then about well, how do I put myself first, what does that look like for me? Growing up, my mom never had friends. She never had hobbies. Like, I don't want to say she was just a mom. That sounds horrible. But like, I remember looking at her. And I was thinking, I don't want to become a mom. Like, honestly, if this is what it means to be. Your wife kind of ends, you don't have anything. And it was interesting. I met my husband when I was 18. And we, when we got married when I was like 22. And we were never sure on the kids thing. I could be really honest. Like, I love my kids and everything, but we weren't sure. And then we decided or wait till I was 28. And then we would decide. So we had, you know, by the time I was 2010 years together, and then we were like, Okay, we have kids got pregnant the first month, I had a very lucky journey in that respect. But it was kind of like, I remember when we got the positive pregnancy test, he was over the moon. And I was just sitting there kind of like, whoa, because I didn't think you know, it's like, this is what we wanted. And I was like, yes, but like, there was a little bit of mourning there. Oh, and, and then I was like, I don't have to be the mum. But my mum was. And yeah, like, I have friends. I have hobbies, I have a business. And I model really good boundaries to my children. And some people think that I'm too harsh, or this or that or the other. But then other people like, wow. And I'm like, Yeah, because I don't stand for anything else. But also to encouraging them that their needs and their things are important. And that we all have time. So we have different games that different ones of us like to play and we have a little chart on the fridge when we take turns about who gets to choose and all that kind of thing rather than it's just kind of like I remember the the Goldilocks story and mommy mama bears porridge was always cold. And I had a story about that with my son recently because I always say to my kids, I like porridge. And like if your breakfast takes 12 minutes before I have it, do you want anything? No, I want it later today. And I'm like You do realize mommy's making hummus. Yeah, that's fine. He was like, Oh, mommy, but it's cold porridge. I'm like, Yeah, I mean, Damn straight. It's like you had the thing. You can wait. I think it's kind of like it's just learning. And in life, we don't always get our way. And yet we say to our kids, they're first but then suddenly, when you have your own kids, you've now got to go from first to last. It's really it's kind of like an identity shift. And even with choosing TV shows, it's funny. I live away from my family, my husband and I interstate. So we don't have we see them that often. But I don't really like kids movie. So it's funny. I was on a podcast recently somebody asked me about bluey because I'm Australian. And I had to admit that that's the show my husband watches with the kids. But anyway, I hired a babysitter to take my kids to the movies and other some people will like that's the best idea ever. Because I'm an introvert. I don't want to go out. I don't want to hire a babysitter and go out. I want them to take them. But I didn't have to see the kids movies. And I could stay at home. Like that was like just groundbreaking for me. The kids get what they want. Yeah, I get what I want. And we're all winning my husband I went to Phantom of the Opera in the opera house awesome. And my kids went to see whatever the latest 3d pet movie or I don't know, some super pets or so like everybody was happy. That it's almost like it's normalizing doing things differently. It's breaking down that what we think we're supposed to do, because that's what has always been done. I love all these posts at the moment. People have like normalized naps, you know, having a nap in the middle of the day, you know, normalize something like, it's just like, Why? Why are we pretending that life has to be perfect? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was. You know, when you're talking about your porridge, and you know, the kids having to wait, there is nothing wrong with your kids having to wait, like, I have this thing that, that we've got that, you know, the kids want something. So we will have to drop everything and go do it for them. And the same with the games, like, my little one always wants to play the same board games. And like, I don't mind it so much, because I enjoy some of them. But my husband's like, I want to play this game, you know, it's like, well, let's say to him, we don't want to play this, let's pick something else, you know, they don't always have to come first. Yes, I think that's the thing, that it's been conditioned from previous generation, that the kids come first and we protect them. But then it's actually not teaching them the skills they're going to need when they're older. And that your parents are people too. And they have their own wants and needs and passions and interests that might not necessarily align with yours. And it's just yeah, it's modeling good boundary setting and the family as a cohesive unit. So we're going on a holiday for Christmas. And, you know, we each get to decide for a day what we want to do, rather than just doing stuff for the kids, because, you know, yeah, so because then it's like you're even on holiday, you're just taking your children on holiday. Yeah, I think that's the thing too, like so many times, you there's a difference between never doing anything, it's been I think so many of us are so fearful of being self centered, or self focused or selfish. And that actually, you know, self care and self first isn't bubble baths and this sort of stuff. Yeah, doing the daily things that we don't want to do. But then, you know, modeling that, you know, we all get, we all have to do things like my kids now with their chores. It's so funny. Some days, like, I just don't do this. I'm like, do you think I want to work or cook? Yeah, whatever. Like, left my own devices? Yeah, I'd sit in the backyard and sun or pay with paint or whatever. But you know, it's their life is, you know, 5050 or whatever balance it is. Yeah, you know, if we all do it, we all follow the washing or whatever, then we can go and play a game. But if it's left to mom, then you know, yeah, yeah, I love that my wonderful one. Boy can't be I don't, I'm so tired. I don't want to go to school. I said, mate, I'm tired. I don't want to go to work. But, you know, this is what we do. It's life. You know. That example of the holiday, we went to Queensland recently, and we did the same thing. We all wrote down a list of all things we wanted to do. The some of the things were aligned. So that was fine. Those days sort of suited a few people. But I desperately wanted to go away or watching and I was going to do that. No matter if no one came with me or everyone came with me. I didn't care. But in the end, we all booked a ticket. And unfortunately, my eldest son was too unwell to go. So my husband stayed with him. So I took the little taco. And he was good for a while until he just decided I just don't wanna do this anymore. And I'm like, we're in a boat in the ocean. Where would you like to go sort of thing. And I was getting pretty impatient. Because this was my thing. I was like, pumped to see these whales, and we'd already seen a few whales. So I think he was like, over the whole thing. He wanted to sit inside and I said, if we sit inside, we won't see them. And I said to him, I have waited to see these whales. I'm going to go and stand out there. And it was just, I mean, I could say, I'm just going to send out there. I'm going to look at these whales. And he huffed and puffed and he said, Well, I'm going inside. So I stood out there, took photos of the whales, and he went inside. We told this lady, this old lady that we've never met, Mom and I are having a disagreement. Dr. Leakey and I came back. I gave it five minutes. I thought I probably shouldn't even too long. But damn it, I would say my wife. And I thought we can't go anywhere. I'm not going to lose him. So I went back in and the lady said, Oh, you've got such a lovely boys come over and told me that you're having a disagreement. Thanks, Digby for sharing. But I was like, there was no, that was not the time for you to get your own way. dB. This was my thing. You know, I was letting that go. Yes. And I think sometimes to you, when we do give in and you know, put everyone else's needs first. It's another reason that we end up over eating or over shopping or over whatever, because that part of us that you know what's going on I get my way does in a way that's not nourishing for anyone. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Yeah, it's good for you. I think that's the best thing ever. I think of a few times my kids have, but I love it like on a boat. Yeah, you know, like, you're stuck here. Honestly, they went through my mind I thought, am I being a bad mother because I'm letting my kid wandered around on a boat. And I honestly, it all flashed, I thought someone's gonna think I'm bad because I've left Makita on my own. I thought, No, dammit, he's fine. He's absolutely fine. I can see him. He's safe. I mean, I couldn't see him when I was looking at the whales. But I thought what's the worst that could happen? On here? No, he's not going to jump off the boat. Yeah, and I think that's the thing, too. It's our own inner talk or our own guilt. Yeah, some people might have thought you're a bad mother. And some people would have thought Look at that. Yes, yeah, that's what I want. And then the end of it, I thought, damn it, I've come this far. I'm glad you brought up guilt, because that is a big topic that I love to talk about this whole mom guilt concept. What are your thoughts about that? Though, very significantly, because I think it's something that we can't escape we all have. But it's just like for me, you know, when it happens, it's interesting. So like, you can say something to your kid and be like, I shouldn't have said that. And apologize. I'm all for apologizing when I'm wrong. Not as a way like, whatever. But like, you know, I shouldn't have said that. I feel bad. And then the kids can move on their merry way and skipping and happy. And, and it's I'm the one. So what's that saying that? Pain is inevitable. But suffering is optional. So the pain of like, oh, I shouldn't have done that, like, you know, but then the suffering and the stuff that we tell ourselves. So I can think of examples of like, when my son has hurt himself, like he's fallen over or whatever it happens. But then I'm like, well, I should have been watching him or I shouldn't have the room arranged like that, or it doesn't make any sense. Yeah. And then if I want to go to the other extreme, and I know I'm not the only one who does is a couple of 100 share this. But anyway, it's kind of like, Wolf, I really was. I'm not a bad mother, because at least I'm like, not burning them with cigarette butts or something like that. But like, it's sometimes like, yeah, if you really were a bad mother, would you be questioning? Am I a bad mother? Like, yeah, I think, yeah, you know, we all doing the best we can with what we have. And there are moments where we yell, or say something that we later like, makes us cringe. Like, you know, I open my mouth and my own mother comes. Like, I'm never gonna do this. And then you do it. You're like, Oh, yeah. And it's just kind of like, it's, yeah, it's all the skills, we want them to learn humility, you know, apologizing, being honest, sharing our feelings and not putting our stuff onto our kids. But yeah, kind of like, you know, so it's interesting. I I'm very strict in some people's rules, when I go out with my children. And I have a one warning policy. And I hold it. So we've literally gone out to dinner before ordered, and left, even though I've paid like, because the restaurants not missing out. And the kids think that they can get away with it. Because I've already paid like, No, we will leave we've left the cinema before. And it's like, I'm disappointed too. I wanted to watch this. But I would rather like take it to learn this. And anyway, some days, I'm just like, I've got nothing. So I'll be like, this is a no warning kind of day. Yes, you can go to the park or yes, we can do this, but everything is gonna go swimmingly. Or we will go home as soon as you poke prod breathe into the air. I don't know. It's like, I mean, it's just being honest with where I'm at. And also upholding that, because I think I know, my sister. She never she's like, I don't understand why my kids are so good because her kids are. Well, it's funny. She was just here this morning. Her kids are now in the 20s. And it because our age gap. But anyway, when I said if you clean your room, we can go the movies or whatever. If they didn't clean their room, we wouldn't go as as my own parent now my own children. It's like making sure I choose that not punishment, but the consequence. That's not going to be a detriment to me, because I remember a few weeks back, I was like, okay, no electronics for a week. And I was like, this was not a great idea because so it's picking up thing that but also to something because like if I sent my daughter to her room, she'd love it. Yes, like me, whereas my son, that's a punishment. He's like, I need to be around people. So it's kind of like, yes, it's gonna happen. Yes, we learn from it. And whenever we need to, like break that pattern so for me, for me, it's the cigarette butts story. It's not my finest moment, but it's just, it's just enough of ridiculousness for me to go Of course, yeah. In some out of it. That's viral. Yeah. And like you said, the mere fact that you that we are questioning if we're good enough, that's telling us that we're not good enough, you know, because we care because we're aware of stuff. Done and again, I just have all these thoughts, and I brought them down, then it's gone. All right, understand you're in the other thing I was gonna say that helps me with mum guilt, or any sort of guilt or times that I feel not enough yet, is I have a folder on my phone. It's called nice things. People say, whenever I get an email, or a text or a comment or whatever, I screenshot it, and I go and save it to that album. And when I'm having those things where I'm like, I'm the worst person in the world. And everyone hates me, because we all have that. I read back over it on my phone. Awesome. Yeah, I love that. I'm getting really used to the fact that mothering is not right or wrong, black or white? Yes or no, there's this this gray area, it's literally an entire gray area and this level of ambivalence of, yes, you can have a bad day and and yell at your kids because they misbehaved. But you can also love them so much, you would you know, throw yourself in front of a moving car for them like that. And I think some people depending with the, you know, left brain or right brain, how you your brain works need to have a yes or no, they need to have a straight answer. They need to know, was this right or wrong? And this whole motherhood conundrum just throws that completely out the window. So then I think for some people, it can be confusing. If you are and I've put this in air quotes, doing it right, from your own perspective, because there are so many gray areas. For me, there's something that another thing I think, is I always love my children without a doubt. I don't always like them. Yeah. So it's like, you know, I if something happens, like I love you, fiercely. I don't like this. So it's it's separating like the love is always, as he said, jump in front of a bus or take on a intruder or whatever. Yeah, you're not drawing on my walls. Okay, how pretty it is? No. Yeah, absolutely. That's a good one, actually. Because my background is in early childhood education. And something that I learned straight away when I started working at this particular center, about nine years ago was that we wouldn't use terms like you're a good boy, or, you know, you're being bad or whatever. Because it's the behavior that you're not happy with, not the person. Yeah. And I've been really, really, what's the word focused, or it's important to me that I talk to my kids like that, in terms of their friendships. Because there's a whole thing of kids of a certain age, I'm not your best friend, I don't like you're not my best friend, you're not coming to my birthday party, all this sort of behavior? Yeah. And it's like, yes, you you were frustrated with your mate is because he keeps your ball on the roof, it then doesn't mean that you're not friends, you know, just breaking things down separating an actual person to the behavior that you don't like, or, you know, I think that's really important to set up because that's not something I grew up with normally changing that, that thing is the way we speak to ourselves, too. And, you know, because the thing is, you can't be what you don't see. So it's like modeling it for you for your children. So my son, he sees a psychologist, he has autism. And they he calls her his emotions, doctor, which Oh, that's good. And she works a lot with him with how he speaks to himself, because he's got a very critical inner voice and anything that I think it's part of his autism to, doesn't take a joke. So like I'm very, very jovial and can take a stab, but I don't mean it, but he will take it to heart. Yeah. And it's the way he speaks to himself in any way I have. I use a Voxer voice messaging app for my business. And the other day, someone left me a message and most of the time I can listen to them in front of the kids and it's not a big deal or I don't actually I usually have my headphones, but I couldn't find him anyway, whatever happened, I press play. And the person's like, Oh, I'm such a dick. Like the message, you know, he was like, why would they talk to them about themselves like that? And I was like, see, we all do we all have our ways that I'm not good enough, or, you know, this is wrong, or I'm bad. And then it's catching that. And, you know, so it was actually such a great learning experience. I don't know, I told the person about and like, I've always wanted to be the reason somebody needed to laugh about it. But it's just kind of like our inner talk, like, you know, and distinguishing. Like, I, I made a bad decision. Not I'm a bad person. Yeah, the thing is, the message was that we're supposed to message me like two weeks ago, and I hadn't, so I've had to deconstruct sorry. And it was like, you know, life happens. I get it. But it was like, you know, I did a dick move or IV is not I am so yes, exactly. Yeah, I think that's a really important thing that self taught because Matt and I, we, we tend to beat ourselves up so much, and talk to ourselves, the way that we'd never speak to anybody else. You know, we're so so harsh and horrible to ourselves. A lot of the time. Yeah. And then who wants to hang out with somebody like that, and then we're stuck with ourselves all the time. So no wonder we end up in you know, behaviors that don't serve us because at least gives us a break or numbs it out for a short period of time. Yeah, that's so true. My website is Susanne kohlberg.com, which you'll probably spell in the show notes. Because it's an interesting I think I've ever had anybody get Kolberg. Right. Again, anything from Collberg to gold. It's about to be updated. I don't know when this show will end. So if you guys come across it as not quite yet, just put your email in there. And I'll let you know. I've been rebranding, it's been such a process, I tend to really significantly underestimate the amount of time things will take person who works long term on goals, but anywho. And it's got all about my program on there, it has the first two chapters of my book, if you do sign up for the first two chapters of my book, it doesn't automatically add you to my list. It's one of my pet peeves, so I can never get away from it because I just wanted a freebie. So it literally is just the two chapters, I send two emails, and the podcasts I've been on if you wanna listen to me anywhere else, and all that kind of thing. But my program, it's, it's 10 weeks, it's called Why wait visiting, what are you waiting for. And it's for people who are overdue us over consumers to kind of overcome our inner resistances and our all or nothing mindset and take small sustainable changes, and it runs for 10 weeks at a time. If you do at once, then you're an alumni and you get a significantly discount if you want to come back some people in my life is we come back every round, some people dropping once a year, it's you're always welcome. And it's about showing up as you actually are, there's none of this kind of pretense or whatever you can wear your pajamas, I really don't mind. Just kind of like what's actually going on, and a space to be seen and heard and witnessed. And then, you know, work through it if you want to, or just be seen because so many of us, we don't have a place where we can say what really happened. We have like the highlight role, which is Facebook or Instagram. And it's just yet about breaking these really big goals down into small ones. And, and starting out and celebrating the things we celebrate. And why won't you be humiliated to say anywhere else because it's just so small. But it's like, I'm so excited. I walk to my mailbox. Yeah, then that's that competence that's playing warm up with the universe and then that building excitement of others, rather than just kind of ho hum, I've missed my work like that. So it's about learning to witness the times that we're in struggle and struggle of others not wallow in them. Hmm. That's very important, isn't it? Like you said before about you know, we can choose to suffer or not? Yeah, pain is inevitable stuff. Stuff. Thumbs up. Like, it's interesting, every round, it's finishing now, but towards the end, we say like, you know, I have a list of things, how many of these come up that you weren't expecting? And because so often people will be like, I thought this would be the time I thought this would be the thing. And it was like, somebody's passed away. Somebody had COVID, somebody's moved, somebody's lost a job like all these stressor indicators. And then we're like beating ourselves up. And it's like, still in the room. Accounts. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. Like that deserves acknowledgement and celebration. 100%. Yeah. Because I think as a society, as this capitalism come up again, but it's like, you have to meet some incredible goal, some massive thing, and then you're worthy of being celebrated. Yeah, and every quarter is going to be better than the last quarter. And that's the thing to like, because a lot of people do come back round after round for my program, and like this round might not have been a growth round. So I taught I teach it in seasons. So we start in an artificial spring, because obviously, a we're from all over the world. So some of us it is spring, and some of us isn't. But also it's the seeds. It's the planting, it's the initiation, a lot of us, especially your daughters, were really good at Spring. This is gonna be the thing. Oh, yeah. And then we move into the summer, which is the persistent and consistent action. A lot of yo yo dieters at all, and I think people were terrible at summer. This is where we go away, then we go into the autumn or fall, depending on where you are in the globe, which is the harvest of what have we done this round. And then the winter, a lot of people are really good at winter. So spring, winter, spring, winter, spring, winter, and it's like the break either between rounds or you know, a longer break the time for rejuvenation. And because we need to prune in order to grow in a capitalist linear society. We fear winter, because it's the end, like then it's over. Yeah. Whereas in a cyclical natural rhythm after every winter comes the next spring. Yeah. And I think with the power of the program, and the people who are coming back, you know, you can see like, some of it is disappointing. Sometimes you have around where everything's happening, and you're making so much progress. And other rounds, you feel like you just keep your head above water. And as a facilitator, I get it out. Because I teach the program live every time none of its pre recorded. It's like, what's going on for me shapes that as well as what's going on for the people in the container? And I think there's some power in that rather than us just pretending that everything's hunky dory all tile here. Absolutely. I was just this, this whole issue of, of being transparent and honest and sharing. When things are going bad. This is a thing that I feel like there's a movement happening. You know, and you talked about the socials where everyone just puts their highlight reel and people like, you know, people that are capable of it, I guess I able to share when things aren't going well. And then other people say that and go, ah, that makes it okay for me to say that this is normal, you know, it normalizes life. I think the big work of like, my life's work on my passion is teaching people and modeling how to sit with people when things aren't going well. Like, the first time someone told me I was a space holder. I was like, What is this space blank, and I was thinking about the hospital, bear hug up. And it's like, we aren't taught how to sit with people in their discomfort. We either taught to fix it, which is very masculine thing, what can I do? Have you tried? Have you tried keto? Have you tried paleo? Have you tried, which is like really frustrating. Or we're told to diminish? It's not that bad. It's not that bad. And people have it worse. actually sit with someone who's having a hard time and just listen. Yeah, it's the most powerful thing or normalize like, of course, this happens happens to everyone. I think, you know, the inner talk thing with my son, like he explained to him and normalizing we do all speak to ourselves in ways you know, but it's like having tools or things or just noticing it the power of noticing, rather than eating like that. For me, that's been the hardest thing becoming a mother. When my kids are struggling. I just want to throw food at them. Because that's what was done to me when I was a kid. Yeah, exactly. Same, same. Yes. Like food and alcohol were the common threads through every situation, you know? Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? But yeah, that I'm noticing a lot of posts lately about toxic positivity about calling out that behavior to say, Oh, well, at least you You should be grateful of this and blah, blah, and just that diminishes the actual problem, or the issue just skirts over it by making you feel happy. Like you know, and you complain about your kids are where you should, you know, you should be glad that you can have children. That's like that's not a helpful thing to say. No, it actually I think that that toxic positivity really increases mental struggles and depression, anxiety, because you don't have anyone to speak to. And people think that being helpful, but it's like struggle isn't a competition. Yeah. And then who do you turn to because the thing is, like, I was very fortunate that I didn't have any struggle conceiving. And it's like, oh, I can't talk about that because other people do it. But there's other things that I had struggle with that other people don't. And it's not like a tit for tat thing like, oh, well, I can't you know, it's just kind of like, that sucks. And all that's awesome. Because sometimes when you get what you want, like we were talking way back at the beginning, if this then that. So you were saying your once this, sometimes once you achieve the thing, it's not what you thought, and then you can't like so I dropped 78 kilograms. So like an entire person off my body. Yeah, the number of people who tell me how I must feel You must be confident you must be this, you must be this. And it's like, honestly, it was hard because I didn't have an identity like this. And people didn't recognize me. And I didn't recognize myself. And when nobody wants to hear that. They just want to life's perfect and you're confident. That's it. That's the headline, isn't it? That's click on on the internet, they don't click on woman loses 78 kilos and doesn't feel this way. Like, it's, that's not that's not what society is built to see here. You don't burst the bubble. And it's like, I think we should be bursting more bubbles and not. So it's not saying you don't do the thing. It's just that we don't set ourselves up. I think that's the reason so many of us want to avoid being disappointed. So we kind of live our life preemptively disappointed. But then there's other things like there's always going to be new problems. Like once you reach this goal, there's going to be another goal. So it's focusing on how much you've gained and how far you've come. But realizing there's always going to be a gap. Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it? I feel like we could talk forever about this. So often not spoken off, because it's kind of you know, like, I remember when I first started coaching, I coached for an organization, they wouldn't put me on their website, because I wouldn't have my makeup done. Like, I'm always like, you know, Mumba. And this is how I am, this is who I am. And it's like, well, nobody wants to see that they want to see, you know, the after, like, you know, the fancy clothes and the makeup and hair. It's like, they don't get around like that. Like, for me, it's funny, if I see someone all done, and then I get a call with them. And you know, it's like, this is it as interesting. My first iteration of my website, it was Sue's professional. I didn't do full makeup or whatever. But I wore like nicer clothes. And I had my head straightened. But I don't look like that. So this part of my website, I showed my current clients and like what we love is you've got the ridiculous T shirts, and you haven't done your hair. Yeah, cuz that's how I am. We think, Oh, I can't go out like that. I can't be seen like that. And we kind of almost living two lives. And it's like, no, no, this, this is how I am but and then there's also with the kids like teaching them when it's appropriate to say certain things like I'm very much just very fairy, I will own that. And in the house. I don't mind so much if my kids do a little bit but in public never. And it's funny my books called the beginning you shit. And my son will either say the beginning is bad word. Or the beginning is sure. He knows as big it's kind of like, there's so much awareness there. And I remember at the therapy session thing will pint we play cards at the end and I get to come in, because we're teaching him about turn taking and whatever. And we've got this game called uno flip it. Oh, yeah, one year. Anyway, sometimes at home, I'll say let's flip this bid sheet. And pass music to the data therapist. My mommy says let's flip this bad word that starts with a beat I just think there's something about the realness as opposed to like I know growing up, it was like, This is who we are. Like when we go to church, my family's religious, or when we go here, and this is who we are at home. And I just didn't understand that. Whereas with my kids I explain you know, there are things that are allowable in the house of words, and these but not to be different. But to just be mindful of others. Yeah, that's it. Isn't it that respectful of others and other people's boundaries? I suppose. And yeah, that's good. Well, I do love playing that flip it sometimes I get confused. Because some of the things aren't really clear if it means it's going to flip Well, this summer. This one took me a while to work around the world one in five, nothing nasty, because we make it compound. So like for us one time and recently I did pick up 25 cards. Oh my goodness. I feel like we've got the core of the decade now, but he's a good guy. I really like that one. All right, well, have you got anything else you'd like to share? Sort of finishing up any sort of final thoughts that you'd like to tell everyone? For people, it's kind of you can listen to a podcast or read a book or whatever, and separate yourself into you know, me and them or I'm different because or things like that. And I encourage anybody who's listening it If that's the case for you, to look at how we're the same with the hotter and colder game of the universe, when we look at, well, she has two kids and I have four. Well, she lives here and I live, there we are, where we're making the distance greater. And it's kind of like when we look for, you know how we're similar, like, oh, wow, she was on her first diet at four, I went on my eighth or, you know, she lost and regained, like hundreds of kilos. I've done that, too. So, why not me is what I've been encouraging anybody listening to think, because we can think why me all the reasons I couldn't do this. But why not you? And I just, I really hope that that that really lands or resonates with someone because I know for me, for years, I'd be listening and reading and like I was obsessed with before and after stories, when I was losing weight, hence why I never found one like mine. They were always before my life was terrible, after my life is magical. And it was kind of like this Disney Princess story. Yeah. And I was like, whereas I felt more like the Disney movie that had multiple sequels. Something bad happened again, next book. And it's just kind of like, you know, this is life. And then also to, even within people being honest and transparent. There's the selectivity about about what we share, because sometimes to people like, oh, well, despite them having all this going on, you know, they've still had it or they've still gotten there. We all have our our dark moments are the moments that you know, we wouldn't share. And it's not that they disappear. It's that we know how to move through them. Or they go through them faster. Luckily, I still gone slammed entire packet, Tim Tams not proud of it. But less often or less amount, or I catch myself and go. This is really solving it. No, yeah. So those moments of awareness, it's, it reminds me of that. There's this model about how we learn. And it's like unconscious. Whatever, like you don't know that you don't know. So like my son. He didn't know he didn't know how to drive a car, because it wasn't his frame of reference. Yeah. And there was conscious not knowing. So like, my daughter's like, I don't know how to drive a car. And I want to. So sometimes when we go from Yeah, unconscious incompetence, to conscious incompetence. So when you first start making these changes, it's often harder, because you're aware. And that's when we can stop and quit and start and stop and whatever. But when you get through that, then you get to the conscious competence. But you have to think about it until you get to the unconscious competence, where you just do it. So like recently, I watched that. The other reason why Facebook memories instead, it comes back up my first Facebook Live. Oh my gosh, it's so bad. So often people take that stuff down. I leave it there because I watch it. And I'm like how far I've come. Yeah, literally breathe into a paper bag for nearly an hour beforehand. I couldn't go on without my own. So I had one of my kids in it. It was just, I had the dot points on the screen. And one of my friends was just like, you sound like you got to pull up your ass. But you know, it gets better. Your best gets to get better. But you've got to start to wear someone else's. Oh, yeah, that's a good point. Absolutely. Because we're all in different little ways. In long the journey. You know, we're different seasons. Nobody's ahead of you. You're not behind. You're just in a different season. Yeah. Now that I love that analogy. That's really, really cool. Well, thank you so much for coming on Suzanne so much for having me. It's been such a lovely chat. And it's a pleasure to meet you. And I'm thank you for doing the work you're doing and sharing what your experiences and I'm sure it's helping. It's helping people and it will continue to do so. So thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Alison Newman is an Australian singer songwriter and has released her new EP 'Wolf': a musical masterpiece that delves deep into the complexities of postnatal depression. BUY MUSIC ON BANDCAMP “Was great to have Mt Gambier singer-songwriter Alison Newman as support when I played in her town. Her new EP is excellent and the hometown crowd loved her performance.” Ross Wilson - Daddy Cool/Mondo Rock Alison's EP album 'Wolf' is out now .... FIND OUT MORE LISTEN

Heather McClelland UK singer, songwriter, musician, composer and music educator S2 Ep40 Listen and subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest this week is Heather McClelland, a singer, songwriter, musician and music educator based in Sussex UK, and a mum of 1. Heather grew up in a very musical family. Her family were a travelling band with West African and Irish influences, and Heather’s first gig was the at an Irish Busking Festival at the age of 6. She has been writing songs since the age of 13. In her high school years, Heather sang backing vocals for her mother’s performances and was playing in bands. During her university years Heather and her band toured Ireland supporting Mad Dog Mcrea . After finishing school Heather went to Brazil for three years, studying music and performing with some of Brazil's leading musicians. This trip cemented her decision to pursue her music as a full time career. On returning to the UK in her mid-twenties, she continued to perform Brazilian-influenced music (appearing at Festinho, The Royal Festival Hall and Favela Chic) as well as collaborating with other artists including champion beatboxer Bellatrix, Wah Wah 45's Stac, and Ninja Tune's Submotion Orchestra. As a soloist, Heather's debut EP China Mind was released in 2020 just before the pandemic hit. It occupies the space between folk and electronica, singer-songwriter and neo-classical. Her songs are ethereal and haunting, featuring her uniquely pure-toned voice and her evocative harmonies Heather’s vocal group The Sugar Sisters is a 40s inspired trio, specialising in close 3 part harmonies. While busking, the trio were spotted by the producer of Irish radio presenter Sir Terry Wogan and that lead to some amazing opportunities, including performing on BBC Radio 2 and at Royal Albert Hall. Heather has many years experience in music education. She currently works at the Royal Brompton Hospital as lead Artist on the Vocal Beats programme, which she helped to create and develop. The project works with paediatric heart and lung patients from birth to 25 years, offering a diverse range of music, including lullaby singing, beatboxing classes and singing for breathing sessions. Heather also works as a musician in residence at Great Ormond Street Hospital for children. **This episode contains discussion around the loss of a parent and grief. ** Heathers Website / youtube / spotify The Sugar Sisters VocalBeatsOnline Read about Royal Brompton Hospital VocalBeats project The vocal Beats Nursery Rhymes album Georgia Fields ' Find The MotherLode Heather's music is used throughout this episode with permission. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch all music used on the podcast. He's done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bowl antic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to today's episode. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest this week is Heather McClelland Heather is a singer, songwriter, musician, and music educator based in Sussex in the UK, and a mom of one Heather grew up in a very musical family. Her family were a traveling band with West African and Irish influences, and Heather's first gig was at the age of six in an Irish busking festival. Heather has been writing songs since she was 13 years old, and in her high school years, she sang backing vocals for her mother's performances, who is a singer songwriter in her own right, and she was playing in bands. During her university years, Heather and her band toured Ireland supporting Mad Dog McCray. After finishing school, Heather went to Brazil for three years where she studied music and performing with some of Brazil's leading musicians. This trip cemented her decision to pursue her music as a full time career. On returning to the UK in her mid 20s, Heather continued to perform Brazilian influence music, as well as collaborating with other artists including champion beatboxer Bellatrix and Ninja tune to sub motion orchestra. As a soloist Heather's debut EP Chyna mind was released in 2020. It occupies the space between folk and electronica, singer songwriter and neoclassical. Her songs are ethereal and haunting, featuring her uniquely pure tone voice and evocative harmonies. Heather's vocal group the sugar Sisters is a 40s inspired trio specializing in close three part harmonies. While busking the trio was spotted by the producer of Irish radio presenter, Sir Terry Wogan, and that led to some amazing opportunities including performing on BBC Radio and at Royal Albert Hall, in addition to writing and performing him has many years experience in music education. She currently works at the Royal Brompton Hospital As lead artist on the vocal Bates program, which she helped to create and develop. This project works with pediatric heart and lung patients from birth to age 25 offering a diverse range of music, including lullaby singing, beatboxing classes, and singing for breathing sessions. Heather also works as a musician in residence at the Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children in London. This episode contains discussion around the loss of a parent and grief. carry with me, huge huge. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Heather. It's such a pleasure to have you today. Oh, thank you. It's a real pleasure to be speaking to. Especially across the waters like it's nice to be speaking to someone it's a totally different time as well. You're in your night and I'm in my morning. Yeah, and yeah, so what what we're about to lunch. Are you in London? Where are you willing to? No, I'm actually so I'm in Sussex we were I love them. My husband just walked in the door so probably downstairs might hear him talking to the neighbors outside currently. But anyway, so I live in Sussex now which is southeast. We spent I spent a lot of time living in London and yeah during like living in a flat in London with a child in lockdown was definitely like a good like push to leave. We've been wanting to do it for ages. But yeah, so I now by now I work in London a lot. Like I just live an hour from London, but it's very much in a beautiful village in Sussex. So kind of the best of both worlds. Yeah, nice because you can sort of escape that intense busyness and sweat. Yeah, for me. Definitely. And I go to London, like at least once a week, sometimes twice. So it's really Yeah, it's still totally a part of my life. But it's very much like it when I get back to the country. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Things You just reminded me of, I'm already going off topic. We went to London, it would have been 2005 everything before we had kids. And I just felt like, I didn't feel nervous at all. I just felt like I was at home because we watch a lot of English TV shows. Yeah, in Australia. And it was like, Oh, I just felt so relaxed. And like all the accents, I found myself starting to into, like, do people's accents, like he would say, Yeah, and it was just really fun. And it's so relaxing. And then so nicely think London's relaxing night. I mean, there's no doubt that it's often when I go overseas, I mean, I haven't been I've saved for a long time now. But we'd go to Asian countries, because they're close for us. And you just don't know what you're going to get. But obviously, the language barrier, the smells are different, like, the culture is slightly different. And I get really nervous. As soon as I get in the airport, you could always tell if there's a guard holding a gun, you're sort of like, yeah, it's a totally different vibe. Yeah, London was just like, Ah, this is, ya know, it's so great. It's so great. And it's so great. It is great when you have child children, like there was a lot of stuff to do. But it's such a great place to be pre kids as well. Like, I really enjoyed this period, like late 20s, early 30s, living in London and just go into parties and go to magazine party just doing really fun, you know, just having that live for a bit. It was great. And then you have kids and then you're like, God, it's quite an effort. With my child. I'm already going out. Yeah, the organization. It's just like, it's a whole like, lane for like, this whole. Yeah, so that has to happen. The other thing you reminded me when you talked about leaving an airway, there's a show we get over here called escape to the country, but and visions of people how they go, Oh, we just want to get out of this city. And oh, it's like, that is literally what England is like right now. I mean, there's so many people that are moving from London, especially like in this village. Everyone's just like, Oh, God, country, so yeah, it's so much that's why Yeah, I I'm gonna have to do some Googling when I get off and I'll have a look at some pictures of your what your little areas like? Yeah, like it's gorgeous. Yeah, totally. The other thing I love asking people about is their weather. What's your weather like at the moment? Um, yeah, it's pretty good. It's okay. It's just like, yeah, it's just gray skies. And I think it's very, you know, you can really feel by the beginning of March, you know, we're all just like, desperate for spring, it's been this kind of really intense winter, and it was really sunny the other day, and I was like, Oh, my God, like, hope you live like, there's that kind of vibe. And then, yeah, so I think it's like, although it is a bit gray, you also kind of know that it is hopefully, I mean, it's England, so it has snowed at Easter before, but do you hope that we're kind of coming out of there, like, sigh like back end of that kind of wintry vibe. And I think for us, it's really nice, because we've only been here like, we've been here just over a year. So we kind of saw, like, you know, the blossoms coming out and like sort of discovered it, but it was very much when we moved here, you know, we were still in a lockdown. And we also were kind of, you know, just figuring out the house and whatever, just basically very, very new to it. And now I'm quite excited about the fact that like, I know that the sun is coming and like just sort of discovering this area and watching like the blossoms come on the trees and stuff because that is quite special, isn't it when that starts happening after you know, because it's so I mean, as with most people, I definitely know I'm quite affected by the weather. And after you've had like really bleak winter, you're just a bit like oh my god another day and then suddenly the sun the sun shines and you're like, okay, yeah, okay, like life is good. Yeah. So yeah, it's quite great right now. It's fine. Yeah. drizzly with with a view to sun. Every time it's sunny, you felt like you have to do something. And then you're like, Yeah, it's fine. To do like, I can be sunny and like, we can also just be like, oh, yeah, we don't have to go on these massive trips. My husband was like, sunshine and we have to go on a walk and you know, so it's like, knowing that we're in a nice place now that we're gonna have hopefully a whole lifetime sun coming in. Yeah, you don't have to do it all at once. Yeah, exactly. I love that. You're a singer and songwriter and a musician. Can you tell us about how you got started? And the meat of it? Yeah, sure. It's so weird. I was thinking about this today because I was thinking it's like I do so many different things musically in terms of my life is like, it's yeah, there's there's a few like very different things that kind of obviously intertwine. But it's quite rare almost to like, talk to someone about all of them at the same time, do you not like because it's almost like you're kind of like, oh, this is me when I do music and hospital or this is my singer somewhere and stuff. Well, this is the vocal true, like, so you kind of have these quite different, like mindsets. And then you're like, oh, yeah, it's really nice to reflect on everything. So I basically, yeah, so I grew up in a musical family, but in a very alternative way. So like, I didn't have it wasn't like I had like four more lessons or anything when I was a child. I mean, I would have loved that. But like, I had kind of quite the opposite, like really alternative parents that just did music, like so I kind of just grew up around music. My dad was Irish. So I like had a lot of like, Irish music, which is actually I think that does feel quite important because in the Irish culture, it's just so like, natural and instinctive. So I kind of grew up a lot around, like all my, his family would always just be singing at gatherings like my granddad, even when he was like 95 would be like singing into into the early hours of microphone at party, you know, that kind of vibe. So, yeah, so I just grew up with that. And then, and then my first performance was when I was like, about about five in Ireland. So we're basically traveling around and a boss in Ireland. And I had my first ever performance was with my all my family, and my mom and my dad, and my brother and my sister have more since then. But at the time, it was just the three kids. And we were performing in a busking festival. So like, they basically had to like go round, you'd go and get kind of basket and then get chosen and be the finalists on the stage. So we got chosen to be the finalists on the stage. So I have this memory of being about five and like fighting over a microphone with my brother and sister because we're slightly different heights. And then we like sang. And I don't know, I mean, I think that the whole town came in my mind and my memory there like 1000s of people watching. I mean, I don't know, they're probably a couple of 100. I don't know, like, you know, so that was Yeah, so I guess that kind of it was always like, it's weird, because it was always very natural. But because of that I kind of it wasn't like a big thing that I saw. It was just like, oh, yeah, cool, like, and then your family broke up. Yeah, it's just what I did. And then my family broke up, my mom and dad broke up. And then my mom got together with an African musician and had a few children with him. So I grew up in with like, a lot of like, West African music around me. So then that was all like, we're kind of always traveling with that. And they were working doing a lot of music in schools. And, and performing. And then and when I was a teenager, my mom used to sing. And I used to basically sing like backing vocals for her. So it was quite a weird like, I was saying this the other day, I say this gig that is like, literally the moment where I was really embarrassed about my mom because you just go through that phase when you're a teenager right? Where you're like, oh my god, mom, like what are you saying? I was literally standing on stage with her at the same time as being like, totally, like singing her songs was like, oh my god, like so it's really interesting conflict. But yeah, but then I think I kind of Yeah, it was like not they did obviously, like, encouraged my singing, but it was weird because it was like, it was just quite a sort of like, it wasn't like I'd meet someone and they'd be like, in my family, they'll just like oh, yeah, cool. You sick rather than like, was kind of later in life when I would go and do stuff with other people that would be like, Oh, wow, like you can really sing. Whereas it was just kind of like just what people did. And then yeah, and then it was kind of when I went to uni that I started really like having my own bands and like started you know, I was always writing stuff since I was a teenager but then it was like when I started going to university I started performing with my own bands and then I went I spent a few years living in Brazil and doing music there and that was like for me that was a really nice again, it was very much like kind of culture that you know, it's very on British in the way that music is very much like everyone there and it was just you know, you have no no space to be like really shy and like oh, I don't I feel a bit self conscious about singing. It's just like you sick, sick. So it kind of so going into Brazil really helped me kind of with you know, overcoming any sort of shyness and also it was a really nice it was a period where I just met all these new people, and no one knew anything about me and It was the first time I'd kind of had these people that were like, Wow, you're a singer, and you've really got some income, we want to really support you. And I had a whole group of people that really sort of supported me to go and do recording. And like it was the first time almost that I kind of, I don't know, like, yeah, that was almost like an adult away from everyone. And someone knew nothing about me that just had me. So it was like, a really important chapter in my confidence, I think. And that's where I made a decision in Brazil, like, whatever happens, even if I have to, like bask on the street, like, I'm going to pursue a musical path. And yeah, and I have done that. I mean, it's been, obviously, as you will know, is a very up and down journey, but like I have pursued it, and then it's taken me to lots of like, different, you know, places and yeah, really exciting things. And yeah, like, we'll mix and stuff from where I don't see myself to him. Yeah, so then I did like a lot of stuff with my solo staff in Brazil. And then I came back and I and I've kind of carried on pursuing that. And then I also speaking of busking on the streets, like I kind of had a, a trio that, like, I have a couple of friends who are really, really incredible singers. And one summer we were like, oh, like we need some money over summer. Why don't we just go and Bosque and so we put together this, this trio called the sugar sisters, which is very much like, you know, close pot harmony, but all very visual as well. So dress up like 40s clothes, and it was all like, so we did that. And we just like went to Baskin from doing that. It's so funny that there's these two kind of formative things in my life with busking, but from busking with them. We can't like just so much stuff happened from that, you know, like someone I don't know if you know, this, I don't know if you know, do you know? I don't know how well known he is. But there's this person called Terry Wogan, or there was an amazing presenter here that like everyone loves like it was like, absolutely like he is he's not alive anymore. This Irish radio presenter that like, absolutely like one of the like, any person here is like, oh my god, Terry Wogan, my husband's amazing Irish man. So his, his producer spotted us busking. And then we went on to tear away his radio show, and then did quite a lot of different stuff with him. And then like, just on all these really nice gigs came and so like, I just had this kind of, you know, like, where you didn't know, something happened and went from being like, Oh, we let's go get some money. Like, we're also going to risk in this summer to like, going and being like, Oh, wow, this is so yeah, this kind of one of these random little chapters of life. And then, yeah, yeah. And then I do music as well. In a hospital, a few hospitals that I've had as a musician in residence where I get to work with some really amazing other artists. And that's a whole kind of other chapter almost, but I kind of do that. And then I Yeah, and then I write my own stuff still. And I continue performing. And I do work alongside my husband with the stuff that I write. And he's helped produce, he's amazing musician himself, and does lots of other stuff too. So yeah, kind of. It's an interesting thing, thinking about all this stuff. You've done all the stuff you kind of content like, yeah, there's so many different things that you're kind of balancing and then obviously, with parenthood and then obviously, with a pandemic, so it's felt like quite a strange time. Being musician now I'll say, but I feel like I'm only just post COVID Like, starting to believe that music can happen again do because there was a period probably like a year ago where I was like, oh my god, is this life now? Are you like, are we ever going to do the cake again? No, that was a really big stream of consciousness. So please ask a question. That's fantastic. Oh, it's it has it's been such a shocking time. I mean, Touchwood we've, personally we've been pretty good. We're in South Australia. So we're quite away from like the big centers like Melbourne Sydney that have had the big outbreaks. And we certainly haven't had the level of lockdowns Melbourne had been locked downs but like we haven't had the same level of lockdown as what you guys have had over there so but even in that was just like stuff was just getting cancelled left right and center and it was like Oh, really like my phone's my cherry lips kiss There we go. Did you find sort of new ways to be to K Playing music like is it really important to you to keep it to be honest, I found it like a really difficult time because I think I'd love to say like, yeah, it was amazing. And I like, did this and I went there and I wrote this and but actually, the reality is I like had a two year old. And I, I really struggled like it with it, because I think it's like, especially when some of my friends were, you know, we'd be like, Oh, I've just like, I mean, everyone's different. But some people were, you know, having a lockdown. And maybe they felt like, they were getting using it as an opportunity to write songs or something. But like, I know, I didn't, I couldn't write anything. I mean, I mean, I tried to I wrote little bits and bobs, but I just didn't really have the headspace I, I worked. So all the hospital stuff I was doing, I was really lucky to so I did that online. And so it was really interesting taking a whole practice online so that in a way it was you know, still doing creative stuff. I collaborate with these incredible like, this other singer stack, and he's World Champion beat boxer. So we kind of had to find a way to do a whole like, yeah, online offer to patients and young people that we work with. So in a way we were like, you know, we made a kind of like, harmony and beatboxing nursery rhyme album, while we were doing these, like live streams, also, you know, so I was doing stuff with them. But in terms of my own writing, I was sort of desperately trying to, like carve out a little bit of time, but it was like, and me and my husband, you know, the good thing is, is that we were at home together. So sometimes we would like you know, maybe just have like a little jam session in the evening or play through some stuff. But then it's funny with that, because you get like irritated like, oh, I want to play this or blood or play that like so then it's like I've got so we kind of bicker through what we're gonna play. But I yeah, I just found it like a really difficult time because there just wasn't. It just felt like survival because it was like, we were in a flat, we had no childcare and I had to work and my husband had to work. So it was kind of like if I wasn't doing the hospital work, I was doing child care and a flat with a two year old who is as an only child will sit away will say not was was never been the most self sufficient child never want to go and play by himself. But you know, I mean, it's not like, not a kind of, like, entertain himself if he's now four. But he's and he's amazing. He's really sweet. But you know, it's not a kind of like, oh, it just sits in the corner with the drawers while I sing. It's like, just on that I saw a video of you on your Instagram, you were seeing Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered. Yes. And you could hear this little boy's calling out. But that is literally, exactly I mean, we had that was that was actually during that period as well. Because that would be like we'd be there. And we had a piano in the living room. So at least I'd be like, you know, what I would always try and do is I think, okay, when can I sing? So it's like, he'd be eating breakfast. And I'd like you know, have a book of like, standards. And I played them on the ukulele and like, oh, like, yeah, get my house was there but exactly, you just learn how to just be like, the seeming like, yeah, okay, later, you know, but you can kind of weave it in. And then people are like, Oh, god, that's amazing that you can weave it in and you like literally the only way I get to do it. But actually recently, I'd say which has been so nice is I had a gig last week, and I had a few rehearsals. And he was so amazing. And I wasn't like it was the first time where I would say okay, I'm just rehearsing and someone's come around, and we're just singing some harmonies, I've set up your toys and stuff in your room. So you can come in if you want to play. And it was kind of the first time that he was actually just sort of doing that. And then also we went right, yeah, I went into someone else's house. And he was like, playing with a train set listening to us rehearse. And I was like, Okay, this is this is really nice. I'm really you know, so he's, as he gets older, he's like, he loves music. And he's more sort of getting a bit more not respectable, but like, he's sort of getting more of an understanding that like, this is important. And he like, you know, he'll go to sleep every, every night. He has phases that will either be like my out and he'll listen to or my husband's album or like when we were rehearsing, he was listening to my husband the other day, like doing some little electronic triggers for some of one of my songs, like really kind of abstract part of the track that like no one would really know what that was probably listen, he walked into when someone's can't be enough, right. So he's just got this like, really? You're like, yeah. Well, I'm glad you brought that up, because there's an incredible video. And I've got to commend you for teaching your child about amazing musicians about Yorke's. He must know her inside out. Yeah, just I'll just give you a bit of background for the listeners. There's a video where you're basically playing like literally snippets of songs, even like, it's like intro like the intro could even be like, the sound of a like one drum beat or something like the very beginning of a song. Yeah. And he's just yelling out the name. So, that's that Yeah. That is like bravo to you for not maybe not doing that with the wiggles but you know what I mean? Like, I know I did. Yeah, I know it's funny my husband's like tried really, he's he's always got a carrot into quite nice music and Akira loves it. But he's got this real like memory he's got. He's like that about your to a level that I know loads of incredible Buick fans. I mean, I love New York, but I don't think I know an adult that would be able to go head to head with him. Like he's so good at knowing what the title is. But every time he will listen, he won't just go like, I like this. He's like, so what's the name of this song? Can I see the cover like so he kind of just takes it all in. And then he'll say I want to listen to something I've never heard before. But Bjork, so he knows, like to give it like, the good thing about Bjork is she's got such a big back catalogue that you can keep discovering. And he's like that About Flags of the World and geography as well. He's got kind of crazy, great, amazing. Yeah. Yeah, that is so so it's actually been really nice with him to kind of discover and listen to music with him. You know, it's been a really nice thing. And like, yeah, some of our favorites. So he's just got a real quite a niche. And at his birthday party, he is his fourth birthday party. And anyone that that knows be, well, like, There's a song called Earth intruders, which is like, quite sort of. Yeah, quite intense. It's like quite rhythmical and quite heavy. And he was like, I want Earth intruder. So he's like saying he doesn't know his friends. He's just literally like, What the hell is going on? And then he's like, and then for lights and then musical statues. He's like, I want human behavior. And again, they're all just they're dancing. These guys. I think they're really enjoying it like. Now, Nasr, he likes to get the teacher to always plays on Bjork songs and come home. So they played possibly, maybe, but it wasn't the right version, but all the other kids are just like yeah, I love that. It's funny. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That brought him a Bjork t shirt for his birthday, which was what she loves is his favorite t shirt. And we did actually send because I have a friend who's like, who works who's kind of has connections of people that have connected to Bjork. So she did send me the video we didn't get a reply, but hopefully nonetheless, she's she got to watch it even if she just got to watch the video of Akira naming us she'd be pretty proud of it. I hope so. Oh, that's great. Day from all the things that you were exposed to how could what what way do you describe your style of music that for your singer songwriter? I guess I would sort of I would describe it as a ethereal very harmony driven. Yeah, I love strings. I love harmonies. And I love music that kind of creates like a sense of atmosphere and slightly otherworldly. Like yeah, so I guess it's very, like, female vocalist, but very much and yeah, and the theory away and I don't, I don't feel like it's like, oh, yeah, it's just phone call. Like it's I find it hard to kind of categorize it in a way Yeah. Yeah. So I'd say like it's it's, you know, a bit acoustic a little bit electronic. There's kind of fragments of like electronic fragments of acoustic and staff fragments of folk but all together, it's like, yeah, Ariel is kind of what I'm going for. And it's really nice because I it's taken me a long time to develop that sound like obviously, I've worked through I've been writing songs since I was like, probably 13. And I have gone through like, lots of different phases and recorded stuff that I would now say like, oh, that doesn't represent me at all. Like I kind of, you know, it's taken a while to sort of discover like, what my voice is. Yeah, what kind of musical sound I want. And I definitely think that has has my husband he's been really helpful in like yeah, I really trust his musical instinct, but I think it's the closest to I think as when you're first starting out, it's very hard to kind of sometimes trust yourself when you're like with someone that may have a louder voice or you're working with a producer or an especially because you know, I'm very much I have done more music training as I've got older and I went and studied musical in Brazil and I did different things. But I, as I said, like when I was younger, I didn't have less than I grew up and I sang in a very instinctive way. So like, actually, when you first start coming, and you're suddenly going into a world of people that kind of have different sets of theory, and then you're trying to articulate your ideas when you don't necessarily have the language for it, that can feel quite intimidating. And I think with Taz is like he is the closest I could get to like putting my ideas out so he can start. So sometimes, for example, like a lot of the stuff I've done, like, I've got a seven string guitar from Brazil, and I like, wrote a bass line on that. And then he helped translate that onto a piano like, but he did exactly what I done and was like that, or like I've got, sometimes I've written some stuff on a ukulele, I'd like some interesting chords, and then he's put that onto a heart. Or then I've written all these vocal lines, like I love writing those layers of vocal harmonies, and then he's helped translate all of those and put those onto strings. So it's like, a, you know, so it says, directors, my ideas could be with someone that can kind of translate help me translate them. Yeah, so that's, so that's been really interesting, like us working together. And obviously, he brings all his own stuff as well. But the first time we work together, I wrote this song for him. And when we first got together, and he and I knew like that, I couldn't just say the word like love, because he's he is really into lyrics, we kind of bonded over lyrics. So I remember writing the song was very pre pre kids, when you could spend hours thinking about how you wanted your lyrics to sound. So I had like, 36 pages of lyrics to get to these one lyrics. And, and I Yeah, so I wrote the song and, and then I sent it to him. And then he, like, wrote this really beautiful, outdoor piano back and then like, sent it back to me. And then from that, then that was the beginning of our collaboration. And now like, that whole outro section just has this beautiful like, Scott. It's kind of almost a track on its own. And it's got really gorgeous strings. And so yeah, we kind of always tried to collaborate in a way where like, he has sort of space to bring his style and taste and then yeah, finding his his voice comes through as well. Yeah, yeah. So how would you describe his style of music? So he has his own desk called Taz Modi. And he has his own solo project. And it's like, it's contemporary, classical, I guess. So it's very, I mean, it's really beautiful. But it's very, he plays piano and yeah, does a lot of stuff with piano strings. But he also does a lot of stuff that's electronic in it like, yeah, kind of contemporary electronic stuff. Well, doesn't really describe it very well, but quite subtle electronic stuff in there. And then he plays with a band called sub motion orchestra, and he plays a band called portico quartet. And again, both of them are kind of like elements have elements of like, electronic jazzy like. Yeah, very cool. So I first met Taz through hearing through my friend Ruby, who plays in submission orchestra who I also sing in the trio with so fast. Yeah, so I met her through that, because he plays in the band with her. And it's like, it's really nice to meet someone that you really respect as a musician. And then and then like, and then to make a connection, because I think it's so important. Like, I feel like music is such an A part of me that it's like you really, even if you just met someone, and they were like, so perfect, but you just really like, I don't know, I know, like, I have, like, you're just on a totally different wavelength musically. Like that would be I don't think that would work very well. You know, like, I know, if I did once I once was seeing someone, and he just was just he just had a really bad music taste and like, but we just, and that sounds really harsh. But it's like, we were just on a different wavelength. And I was like, it's not. It feels like such an integral part of me that if I play your song, you just don't get it like you don't get me like so. Yeah. So it's really nice that we like connect on that level. Absolutely. It has good taste. Yeah. So that's the thing is, it's about looking deeper into things and maybe seeing, seeing why you've created what you've created. And that gives you gives you a glimpse into you. And so yeah, if people are only seeing like, you know, the surface, there's, yeah, yeah. So they're like, Yeah, it's really nice. And you're like, Okay, I don't want to say that. I'm sorry. But like, with your partner, you're just like, how are you getting like, who are you? Anyway? So yeah, we do. And it's funny with Chad's because it's like, it's a really good connector between us because like, if we're really like, if we're annoying each other or kind of irritated by each other, we're having a little period of finding things challenging. Actually, probably the best way we could reconnect is like seeing each other doing music and sort of remembering who each other is, you know, because sometimes when I go and see him playing, I really kind of just see him and I like, do you not? Yeah, if you're not, I mean, and I hear the sort of sensitivity of the music that he plays. It's really beautiful. It kind of reminds me of like, really who he is like at his core, and that's like, yeah, and I think probably the same for him. It kind of really reminds you of like that. really big thing that's like a really big connection. And like I said, we connected through music, we connected through a shared love of different different styles move through a shared love of lyrics and stuff. So that is very much kind of an integral thing for us. Yeah, so. So when you guys decided to have a family? Was that Yeah. Were you conscious of how that would affect your community? Definitely. Yeah. And I really, it's still something that I found. Yeah, I just feel a little bit like, in this creative world, you're always kind of striving to do something or to like, reach some I don't know. For me, I kind of feel like there's always felt like, I've done all these really cool things, but there still feels like oh, there's this thing to actualize. And you kind of can't take your foot off, but you can't just be like, Oh, I'm just having a total break from everything. And I'll get back to my career later. You know, it's felt so i think i Yeah, so I definitely felt I was quite scared. Like having a baby. I was quite scared about like, losing my place, I guess. And actually, in a way, looking back, I actually did things like, probably in hindsight, to say, I don't, it's too soon, but like, I think, I think I'd have another baby, maybe I would give myself a bit more space. I mean, maybe I wouldn't, but like in like, I think looking back, it's like when Akira was so tiny. I was like, back doing like a really big gig when he was like seven weeks old. And he came with me. You know, and it was this like, completely silent audience of like, in a really formal place like 400 people in silence, like watching and I'd like just been like trying to breastfeed like backstage and then I like, went to sing. And then I was like, Tas came with me. So you could hold a care. But again, it's like, you know how, when you have a baby, you're completely like, it's the one thing you don't have any control, like their timing. So you know how you're like, if you like, need to get dressed up on stage, do my thing. This is timing. Suddenly, you're like, Oh, I kind of got little baby. I'm trying to get them alive. And yeah, so I kind of I remember doing that and being like, Whoa, this is actually like, I've just, I've really just had a baby. And my voice was really weird, which I get no one told me that my voice would be weird for a while after having a baby or the hormones. So yeah, it was quite, you know, and, um, and then I also went back to work at the hospital really, really soon as well, because a really good opportunity came up and I was like, oh, so I'd like you know, I do all these things like my in laws. Well, like, they'd look after I go, I'd be expressing it like, you know, when he was like, literally, like three months old, where like, I just go, I mean, I mean, little snippets, but it's like, yeah, I really, I just didn't want to Yeah, lose my place. I guess. So. And, yeah, and I think I, I want to I wonder how, if looking back if I think like, how has it affected me? And I think yeah, it has affected in lots of ways, like having a child is amazing. And I love like being a mum. It's amazing. It's given me like a sense of purpose. And also maybe that thing that you're always trying to achieve that kind of maybe, I don't know, finding a bit more peace with that and being a bit more present to the moment because actually, I think what I like one of the things about being a mum I've kind of learned since through time is if I try and do too many things at the same times as being with a carer, that's when it's stressful. Like I need to kind of, I don't want to say I need to separate my life, but I need to like it's great. Like we say in the mornings I can sing with him isn't terrible. But if I've got a gig, like actually, I really just want to have headspace to get ready for that gig. And if I am if I'm with a career in the day, I really don't want to be trying to work at the same time. You know, it's like trying to like not do it all at the same time. Because that's when I feel this real pool and I've done stuff like you know, when you're trying to get ready for a gig and you're trying to remember all the stuff you need to take and then like your child just happens to have a tantrum then and you're just like, oh god, what's been like right types hairclips things like find a deal. And what else like doing a vocal warm up? Well, like, you know, and that's when it's like, so maybe as a mom, as I'm getting older or more experienced. I'm sort of like, yeah, like I had a gig the other day and I said I was like, Oh no, we'll just get my mum to like, come over. And she will look after him. And then, and then we'll like in the night and all this stuff. And I was like, No, I just want to drop him to London and let him stay with your mom. So I don't have to have to headspace. It's like, I want to have the day to just like, prepare for this gig like mentally and practically, like, I just want to do that. And like him have a great time where he's with someone that can just be present to him. And then you know, and then and actually, it was great. And I think his task didn't quite get it. And then on the day, he was like, oh, yeah, this was actually really good. It wasn't it. So yeah, ya. I come to you it is important, I think to not only you're going out to do your gigs and have your own thing, but you still have to, while you're in your home or with your family, you still need time to be away from them. Like you need that separation, like for your sanity, you know, just to get in that zone, like you talk about just how you make sure you don't forget something for you getting ready. And, you know, definitely because it's a totally different headspace. And I think that's the thing, like when, and when you're a parent, you can't like nobody can prepare you. And I think that you can't explain the feeling of like, when you go from not being a parent to being a parent and having a baby and suddenly you're like, oh my god, I can't go for a Wii when I want or, you know, suddenly you've got this other person who is like, totally dependent on you. And it's like, it's a real shift, like you almost don't exist, I know you're getting learn your identity. But at the beginning, it's really like, what the hell like where am I bought? And I'm just now I feel like I'm a vessel for this other person. And I don't know who I am. And it's quite a weird transition period. But I think, yeah, I think that actually, and that's, you know, and I think obviously, as your child or children grow up, then you get better at like, maybe being with that. And I'm not saying that, like, you're just living for your kids, and you're not in there. But I'm, but what you have is like, when you're with your child, ultimately, like you could be about to walk out the door, and they'll be like, I need a poo or like, it's like, that's the thing, you're suddenly in this other world that you don't have really all this control of time. It's like you're in this kind of situation where actually no matter what, you're there, and you're kind of when they're little, you're there, and you're kind of helping and supporting them. So actually, it's not that it's difficult for them as well, if you're totally being like on focusing completely on something. It's like this kind of balance, isn't it? So let's see. Yeah, and then and then when you're on mute when you're being a performer, or when you're doing that is like the other extreme, isn't it? Where it's all about, like, Okay, actually, I need to think about what I'm wearing, I need to think about how I sound I need to think about what I'm gonna say like, there's all of these things, which is very much a kind of insular, like, focusing on like, you and your identity, or, you know, like the kind of the other extreme and like, so I've had a few conflicting moments where I definitely tried to do both and got really stressed. Yeah, it's an intro. But yeah, so I don't and I think that kind of sense of identity, I've really, it's still something that I yeah, I'm sort of always grappling with. And I think some people as a parent would, you know, like, I remember someone saying, like, Oh, I just want it whenever I meet anyone, I just wanna go up and tell them like, oh my god, I'm a mom. This is a no baby. And I was like, wow, I kind of I mean, obviously, that's lovely. And it's lovely that they could see my mum, but I also want to go and be like, Oh, what's the opposite was like I'm saying, this is like, I know, like, you know, because I guess it's that like, you're kind of grappling with how to be all of those things and like, yeah. I come to you. Yeah, my biggest thing was when I had my boys, it's like, you do everything for them and you like you say you exist to keep them alive. And then when you see someone down the street or someone comes to the door, the first thing they want to do is see your child. It's like, Hold on a sec. I'm the one that's keeping this thing going. I'm going you know, exactly. And I know that's natural because people are excited, but it's like you just feel like you get shafted you just Yeah, it's like, yeah, okay, whatever. I don't know. And it's Yeah. And it's weird, isn't it? Because I guess everything, everything changes. And I think, you know, I was saying that, you know, I had a really difficult experience of pregnancy because I, when I was pregnant, my mom died when I was pregnant. So I kind of had this other extreme where I was like, also, I kind of went through this identity shift where it's like, I guess, when you lose a parent anyways, already, like, who am I? And how do I exist in the world and where you exist in the world. It's like a weird, it's again, it's like one of those things that you can't, it's very hard to explain. I think it's quite an experiential thing. But when through the loss of a parent is like, your position in the world changes because you have this foundation, and suddenly you don't have a foundation, I That's how I felt so and then, but then it was like, I didn't have the foundation. But then also, I'd kind of gone up a level because I then had this other, like, needs to keep someone else alive. So I felt like in the middle, I was like, Oh, my God, I'm just sort of like, I don't have any sort of foundation below me. And now someone else needs me like, What the hell, I'm just in the middle. And it was really difficult, because you know, my husband, also, like, he would normally be very doting. But like, suddenly, all his energy went towards our son, because that's what happens. You know, when you have a pet, that's also the nub of reality, I think when you have a child is that your partner kind of they suddenly they have to also try and keep this child alive, and you don't have any sleep. And you know, so it's like this other thing where the 10 that, yeah, the support you get from them has sort of shift or you're, you know, I don't know if you find that, but your role is like sort of shifted a bit, because suddenly, you're both putting a lot of energy into another human being. Yeah, absolutely. It's like your relationship between you has changed from the energy give each other to the energy that you both give to something. Yeah. 100%. And then you have to learn how to find that energy for each other, too. But actually, in the beginning, it is definitely like, yeah, it's a shift and like, so yeah, to be honest, like that period for me was just, you know, well, pretty, like, yeah, awful. Really. I mean, it's weird, because I you know, and it's so weird looking back at those early that early stage, because it's like, on the one hand, it was lovely. And Akira is a beautiful little boy. He's lovely. And he's, you know, so on the one hand, like, I have all these special memories, but I'm also like, oh my god, that was the hardest moment in my life, because I was just like, new mom, who the hell am I really sleep deprived in total grief, desperately trying to like, bring together my own, like, really trying to hold on to like my identity with you know, like, just that kind of thing. Like, it's incredibly true. Yeah. Yeah. So it was very full on. Yeah. I'm sorry. That's Thank you. Yeah. I wanted to ask them, he said that you your face kickback was at seven weeks. Mine was at seven weeks to you. So when you said that. But within that timeframe, where you and I know we've just talked about everything that we're doing for the baby, but I guess you would have been having to rehearse the gig like we, you were still we're still in music. You just like, yeah, I must have done. I'm trying to think of that. Did I? Yeah, it was kind of blur, isn't it? I probably would have done? Yeah, I don't think I think in that time, I probably wasn't massively, but then I would know, not knowing that gig as well as you normally they'd be like, can you learn a new cell or something? So maybe I thought, yeah, I would have probably been rehearsing, but very much like the people I was playing that gig with. It was with the sugar sister. So it was with the two other females and like, one of them also had a daughter, so they would have been very, like, you know, come to our house and like a Cadillac here. Right. You know, like, it would have been that kind of way of rehearsing, you know, it would have been sort of, okay, yeah, really support. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But I do remember even trying to get to the gig was just like, Oh, I just remember like, it was really stressful. Like it was, I just kind of have this memory of me and he was like, trying to, you know, trying to leg it to get a train and it's like, raining and he was like, cry. And then we're having to like go to like pub on the way to, like, change it or I don't know, some kind of like, you know, it's like, but again, it's like you're trying to make two worlds of like a world that existed like, you have to be here on time to time with a world that is like with babywearers that actually, that is not the world you're living is this to happen right now. Okay, let's stop everything I need to feed him or whatever. Yeah, exactly. It's an interesting time to doesn't exist the same way. It's definitely a classic world. Fragments on that support element, did you have other people around you? You mentioned one of your co singers in your group had a child was there people around you that could sort of empathize and help you out and go, Oh, yeah, we get take a bit of pressure. Yeah, it kind of it was weird because I met. Or I did meet like a lot of other moms. And my, my sister also had a few has two children that are before me. So she's and we're really, really close in age. And we're really close. So she was like a really big support. But she lived in Devon. So that's quite far. And, you know, I mean, I guess it's probably not in Australian terms. But in the UK. We think it's quite far, because it's like five hours away from where we were. But yeah, but I did meet a lot of other moms. But it was a really weird time for me, because it was like, I felt very isolated. Because I had met all of these people. Like, we went to NCT. And do you have entities you know, that like the parent like, so it's the kind of thing? Yeah, so you go when you're pregnant, and you meet people, and, and it was, you know, and I've now met people that are like, I've got a few really, really close friends from there. And you know, we all had babies at the same time. But it was weird, because it was like, I was dealing with this. Like, I just couldn't, I went there. Can you imagine this was like, literally about four weeks after my mom had died. And everyone's just, they're like, Hi, what's going on for you? And I was like, Okay, guys, like, I just need to, like, this is my thing. I can't not this is what's happening. You know, I didn't Yeah, it's not like I chatted about it all the time. But it's like, I think and I think people didn't realize at the time, because I was like, I recently lost my mom. And I think it was only like, a bit after that. They were like, oh my god, I thought you'd meant like last year, I didn't realize it was just now. So I kind of like I felt this. Yeah, it was quite a weird sense of like being with everyone and having these amazing people who are lovely, who I became friends with, but no one else was having the same experience. And so it was quite isolating time at the same time, because you're just feeling something so full on I guess it might be, I guess, if you're feeling like, postpartum depression or something where you're like having something where you're like, you know, you're having such a kind of different experience of things. And I guess all like, you know, people were, your worries are very different to other people's you. I mean, if someone's talking about like, the color of the nursery, and you're just like, oh my god, like, what is my life good, like, you know, and then yes, invalidate those concerns, but like, you're just in a different place. But yeah, I did. And I really worked to, you know, build those relationships and carried on nonetheless, I'm not someone that would just sit in my house like and not do, like, I'll like, go out and meet people and keep trying and go into groups, you know, and, like, I'm very much a kind of was, I don't know, like what the word is. But, uh, I'm high functioning. I am high functioning. Grievers. You know, I mean, it's not like I didn't, I could have definitely not out there. But I didn't that was that was also the thing. It's probably the way I'd love to ignore get outta bed. But I needed to because my child was like, you know? Yeah, so, but now I've got a really nice network of friends. And then even here, you know, we've met some other really nice people even moving here. And Akira is still friends with like, you know, the people that we were with in London, and I had a great that, that, that first period of time where it was like, you know, like, yeah, like doing lunch, just being on a totally different time schedule with, you know, just sort of just getting into living in the moment and stuff with with other parents and stuff, you know. But yeah, it's very mixed time looking back on that, I guess, for me. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that's right. Like you say, like, you're experiencing something at the same time as everyone else, you're but you're experiencing something so much more. Greater. Yeah, the emotional pull on you is just incredible. And yeah, yeah. Then, like you said, you're talking about all the, you know, the superficial things and you're like, yeah, no, there's actually yeah, you know, this is and it's and it's not fair, because you also know that like, and that is important to those people, like, you know, like that, that is totally valid, like what they're going through is totally valid. It's just that you're going through something very and that's sometimes their experience. It makes it you know, and, and it's hard like, it's so when you lose your thing for me, that was really difficult. It's like seeing people with their moms and stuff like that was so painful, you know, there's a constant reminder so that like, you go to the playground and someone's there with their mom and dad, and you're just like, oh, like Yeah, yeah, it's all around you. Definitely. Yeah. Listening to the art of being my mom I listened wanted to ask about Akira festival. That is an awesome name we have. Yeah, it's so random. I think that we like, I remember that it was kind of random that my sister sent me. I was texting my sister on I suppose pregnant about like names. And then I think there was some like spell misspelling. And it came up with some really sort of random name that sort of sounded slightly Japanese that was like, I can't remember it was but it was really cool. And I was like, What are you suggesting this like Japanese name and then we, and we thought it was brilliant. But then it was like, Okay, well, maybe not that well. But then we were just like, okay, it was really cool. And there was a there's a director called Akira Kurosawa who my mom really liked. And like Taz, who's really interested in MMA, like loves and like so it wasn't, it wasn't in any way because we were like, We love the director, we have to honor him. It was just that we were just like, that's kind of a cool name. And there's an I think it's a my mum was was Scottish. And I think it can apparently it is, has like Scottish like, yeah, roots, and it's sort of Scottish for Yeah, maybe for girl I can't remember. But I feel like it is in Scotland, apparently. And also, apparently it's in India and has his family has his dad's Indian. So we're like, Well, clearly there's like some connection and yeah, it's bold. It's a bold choice. But honestly, I think the energy leads to Brits I've seen on videos. Yeah. Satine. Perfect. Yeah, no, it's good. He's Yeah, we haven't met another. Okay, we're actually we did meet we met one girl that was called Akira. So I think it is a unisex name. Right? Like, yeah, but apart from that, and I yeah, I haven't met another girl. And I think she was Japanese. But I think parents in Japan, it's very much like a it's quite common, like, so I think it's in Japan. It's just like, Dave or something. You know, it's not like it's not unusual. So whereas here, it's like, just great. Yeah, it's I work in childcare. So I see a lot of different dates. Yeah. When I when I eat when that I like that. Oh, well. Oh, thank, you know, what I was gonna ask you about, about him? Did you find your songwriting has has changed, or, or sort of been influenced by becoming a mother? Yeah, I yeah, I think so I don't, I feel like, it certainly has, to an extent of like, I used to spend a really long time writing lyrics. And that's like what I like doing. I mean, I feel like the process is, like, laborious, and I don't necessarily enjoy it when it's happening. But I kind of like the results. So it's like, obviously, you know, I can rise, it's really easy to write some, like kind of throwaway lyrics I can, that's something you can do like quite quickly, but then to like, really create depth and like imagery and kind of take it, I would normally spend a really long time going through it. And I found that quite challenging in a way because I'm like, Oh, that's not really the way like you don't when you're a parent, you don't really have the privilege of being like, I'm just gonna spend a few days just really delving into this time. And suddenly you're like, right, there's a window, I just really need to be creative in this small time I've got so yeah, I think that's a that's quite interesting. And then it's funny how I'm like, also on the other side of that is like, at work, I'll often, you know, we'll be writing songs really, really quickly with people like that's what you do, like, you can facilitate other people to write really quickly. Or I'm running these like, Yeah, different sort of somewhere in sessions for different organizations. And yeah, it's so I think it's, um, I feel like in terms of content, I haven't I have kind of written some stuff around it, but I haven't I don't know how the contents like changed in a way because I feel like interestingly, for me, there was so much like, wrapped up around Yeah, parenthood and loss. And it was it was so like, sort of wound up like it was so I've kind of you know, I did like lots of different like grief counseling stuff to kind of try and unwind stuff. And I feel like at the beginning when I first had a carer, I just couldn't like I really want to point out like, I feel like it sounds like a really negative one. No, because I looked like it was really nice, obviously, you know, yeah, there's all these amazing positives. But equally, there was so much there was so much wound up in it that for a while, I found it really hard to like, write anything because it just felt like, you know, it was just like, well, this is just opening. Like, there's just, I can't really express this. There's too much in here. And I think now only in the last kind of couple of years, or actually, to be honest, only really, I started writing bits and bobs in lockdown, but not really having that much space. But only recently have I started to like really have a bit more sort of headspace and like time. And yeah, I guess it has changed because I guess I have changed, in a way is what I'd say. But I don't. But I haven't written like anything up for like specifically for him. Sometimes he's like, can you write a song for me, please? He's like, one day can I write? Can I be in it? Okay, cool. So yeah, that will come but it's so hard isn't it sometimes, like expressing all of this? I think I used to like when he was a little baby. I used to just like make up little songs and sing them to him when he was a child. Like make little all these little voice notes. But yeah, it's an evolving process, I guess is what I'd say around like Yeah. Yeah, when you mentioned their hair, he's, he's saying write songs for me whenever he's obviously quite aware that what you do and what dad does? Oh my god, like, yeah, he literally, like analyzes my lyrics more than anyone, like, in a way that like, no one pays any attention. So I'll go in and he's like listening to one of my songs at night. And he'll be like, so when you say this, what do you mean? He's like, learn the lyrics. And like, yeah, he wants he picked up I have this on on one of my lyrics. It's like, the oceans part. We meet and falling through Blue scenes. Night unveils the see unraveled, you find me. And he was like, Oh, I like the way you say unraveled there. It's kind of similar to be Oxon unraveled, isn't it? And I was like, no one has ever noticed. Like, and I'm always like, inspired by BJOG, like, unraveled, that's a great word. The only person who was three at the time, I feel anyway, but yeah, sorry for interrupting. Oh, no, no, no, that literally is about Yeah, it was heading down that path about he's, do you think, is it important to you? For your identity? I suppose that he's aware of what you do. Yeah, definitely. I think it is. Because I think, yeah, it's really nice for him to kind of know us. And, yeah, and it is, and it's nice for him. And because there's a part of him as well, in a way, you know, it's like such a Yeah, so I think it is, and it's important for him also, to kind of understand us as human beings as well, like, not just as parents, which is, you know, really not I think that's that's great, isn't it? When they're like, Oh, you, you exist, and you do all this stuff. And it's funny, because he always wanted me to go to his nursery, I think, yeah, like last it was about a year ago, we were singing a song together and he said, Oh, can you sing it at nursery so I had to go and like he got got me he was really sort of nervous. But he asked me to like, sing the song together. And it was teacher so we did. And he was like saying we need like we need to do it was really cute. But then like at Christmas I when he I went and I thought okay, I'm gonna go and just offer like, you need to go and do some Christmas singing in his nursery because it's like a really as a little Christmas present to them as that I'll go and sing with them. And so he was really excited about it. And then when I got there, he was literally just so like, it was really interesting, because he obviously all the kids are there. And like you said, you work with the MPC. Like, you know, you start seeing them. Oh, yeah, they're all really you know, and they're always wanting to cut like, yeah, they're already close. And they're all right, right there. And he was a bit like, about really kind of possessive like hugging me. He was also going after I started sang a couple of songs. He was like, Yeah, can I go play now? And I was like, oh, like singer, your master, but it's like his way of processing it. So yeah, he was really really proud as well. Yeah. I feel like it's a nice thing seeing you know, he, he's frequently kind of saying like, Oh, can I make up a song? And I'm like, Yeah, sure. And then we'll, like make little voice clips of him singing and, but the hilarious thing is because he loves Bjork. He was like he thinks in a really big walk away like a really like, Yeah, he'll be like, all this other ground like, expressive way. But yeah, I think it's like, you know I love that that's his he's very much music is a natural thing for him and I love that he knows that about us and also isn't just kind of like oh yeah mom and dad now I love that he wants to listen to us like he'll let literally I'll go in and he's listening to my music on repeat but he also does it with my mom, my mom's got an album and he will also listen to Yeah, so he'll might listen to one of her songs on repeat like in the night as well sometimes. So that's really lovely as well just like having that connection with people through music. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's so yeah, hopefully. Yeah. What was What's your mom's name? She was called net net McClelland the guy Oh, that's just lovely. Yeah, yeah this thing should be done yet. Though you try so hard. Those things you won't want to? Be. Know, we've sort of touched on identity a little bit, and talked about like the pool between the two and separating and stuff. One thing that I really liked to talk to moms about so bad for us, I really like to talk to you about your mum guilt. You know, like, it sounds really bad that I'm excited about it. But yeah, what are your thoughts about it? How do you feel about it? All that kind of stuff? No, I didn't know I was thinking about this. Before the interview. I was like, how, what is what do I think about mum? Gill? Yeah, I think I don't know how I know some people suffer from it really badly. And I was trying to be like, do I like how do I feel? And I guess it's when you? Yeah, when you're trying to do staff or like, if you're like, leaving, and he, like, going to do something, and then he's really upset or something like that. Like, that's when you could start feeling it. I think when I go, like, I think, you know, I've done some kind of like residentials have gone away and done some stuff. And it's like, when I do it when I'm there. I I'm okay, like I think I'm I'm quite good at sort of existing, like we have a really strong connection, but I'm quite good at like doing stuff being present in a different thing. And actually with Akira he's really good because because we've always, like worked and stuff. He from a really young age has gone and been the tases parents or the TAs or you know, he's actually very adaptable. Like he's not, I don't think he's a massively clingy child. Because, yeah, not that there's anything wrong with that. But like, it's like, that's just always been a lifetime. I mean, like, I went back to work really early and I. But then I'll also have like, really intense time with him. So it's not Yeah, I wouldn't go back to work full time. But I think so I think he is really happy. Like when he's with tases parents. He'll be like, I didn't miss you at all, sometimes. But at the moment, he's really like, never leave me. So we kind of go between these but anyway. But he's like, Yeah, I think we're quite good at like, being he's very confident and settled in a way. So we're quite good at like, sort of it not existing separately. But you know, like doing, like if I do things, having a great time with his grandparents, and I'm like, a way and I'm doing something creative. Like what I'm doing. I'm working on doing something like I don't I don't know, I'd not I? Yeah, I don't know if I feel guilty. But I Yeah, but I definitely can feel that pool when you're like, if they're really upset or they need you or like obviously, when you're kind of going I basically one of the things I do is I work for this amazing organization called Ultra young musicians. And I go and every month I go to Suffolk and work with really great artists and I'm like the songwriting specialist there. So every month I'll go away for a couple of days. So it's like and typically when you're about to get on the train to leave, they're like nursery phones and they're like, yeah, he's just been sick. You know, it's always like that, isn't it when you go away that that's when they're just kind of like randomly they'd get sick and stuff. So there's that wasn't that but yeah, and that's when you're a bit like, Oh God, my child and they're gonna be okay and leaving I'm like really far away and then without me and yeah, so I don't know the answer to mom guilt to be honest, that's really good now how do I feel about it? That's good we go you mentioned that you do your residency at the hospital. Can you share more about what, what's involved? About the other artists? And yeah, yeah, so basically, I started working there in 2015, and it was like this project that so it's on pediatric wards on the children's ward. And they weren't, they already had like music stuff. So it's a heart and lung hospital, I started working and they already had this whole singing for breathing program there for our adults. And then they wanted to look at like bringing music for children and young people. So I went and I was like, the first person that to do it, it was like just little old me like sort of trying to bring music to this ward. And then as it started, it was and it was great. So you're doing Yeah, a real mix that went through different ages. So that can be anywhere between like, like leading mums, you know, creating a kind of music group that people like that they would normally be going to these like groups of babies, for example, it says, so you're kind of doing like that with songs or doing kind of performance, the staff more like you're going to sing soothing lullabies, or you're like doing a singing for breathing session with young people, or Yes, it's very much like led by the young people that you work with, it's sort of guided by what's needed in the situation. And then after I'd been working there for about a year, we, we were like, Oh, this is great. And people are really engaging. But there's a whole like group, so maybe sort of teenage boys, for example, as a total generalization, but it was gonna probably be more difficult to be like, you want to do a singing breathing session, you know, like that. Yeah, some, some say yes. But so then we decided, like, then I had some really good friends who have beat boxes. So then we're like, oh, let's maybe bring beat boxing. And so then it developed into this whole big project now, which is basically singing and beat boxing. And yeah, and I play ukulele there as well. And just kind of, and so we just do a whole range of things. And it's amazing, like, I get to collaborate with lots of different artists, and we go in onto the water, they kind of, you know, you'll go there. And it's like, everyone knows, okay, you come in on this day, and there'll be like, a waiting for you. And then you seal that because it's a heart as a specialist hospital. So you'll frequently have people that will come like a couple every couple of months, or maybe it's that maybe some people will say, really long term, or some people will, like keep returning because they have cystic fibrosis, or they'll come back for different treatments. So it's like, you build a whole relationship with them. It's been really intense through COVID. Because obviously, we couldn't go on to the ward for like, yeah, yeah, over a year. And, and now even now, I'm there by myself at the moment, but like, we still I still can't sing. So it's been really full on. So I've had to do a heartlight develop a whole new practice. But hopefully soon, we'll be able to, but Yeah, cuz it's like, the more that restrictions open up here, almost the more intense it needs to become on the ward because obviously COVID is still happening, especially for vulnerable people, you know, there's clinically vulnerable people that like, you know, are very affected. So, yeah, so it's been it's been a really interesting journey for me like doing that without singing, which is like exactly what I love doing. And yeah, and I do and I also work at Great Ormond Street Hospital, which is another like, that's a really big Yeah, Children's Hospital where there's like all that's has all different specialisms. And then there's another one that I do some work out to which is which we which the vocal beat that's called vocal beats the project that we do at Royal Brompton Hospital with beatboxing and, and singing and like we've got there's lots of stuff like, online there's a whole there's like a nursery rhyme album on YouTube, but it's kind of like nursery rhymes that I could deal with listen to because as a parent and as a musician, a lot of them are just like, you know, you know, I'm saying Okay, so these are like, you know, nice nursery rhymes with harmonies and things that we, you know, that I would be happy to listen to. And then we've also got like a YouTube channel that we that because we started on the project, where at first it was just from nought to 16 year olds, but then it was like, Okay, actually, there's this whole group of young people from 16 to 25, that when you leave the children's ward, you're suddenly like an adult, but you don't really feel like an adult. So we then started, like, developed a whole program to support young adults in their transition. And then part of it we like CO design the YouTube channel with them. So there's a whole YouTube channel where I've done all these like, singing tutorials and beatboxing tutorials. It's called vocal beats, and it's gone. And I wrote, I wrote a ukulele book recently. There's always like, ukulele videos and like, so yeah, there's a lot of people like hospitalized or not like for any young people that just want to engage. Yeah, so yeah. Yeah. So it's something I mean, I'm really lucky to have done it. Like, it's great to do that as well. It's like, that must be just so rewarding to like, feel like you really feel real. I hate to using the word privilege now, because it's got a new home. Yeah. So yeah, show you that, you know, yeah, definitely. And it gives you like, it's really good. I think it's a really good. I mean, it's, it helped me a lot as an artist, because I think, you know, when you're working on a ward, it's as much as it's about obviously, it's like being talented, or, you know, so it's like, you want to have a really high caliber of musicians. And that's great. And we, you know, the program is like, really specialist and really amazing musicians. So you want to have that, but actually, an equal part, it's not like you could have the best musician in the world. And they it's not, it's almost more about the personality, like they need to be good musicians, but it's about being able to kind of relate, communicate, connect with people, because like, you are essentially walking into their bedroom in a really vulnerable situate, like, you know, you're going in to that someone's like, room when they're like child might just be about to have surgery, or like you're dealing in an intimate space. So actually, it's a real human to human connection. So you need to, like, have these like, yeah, like this kind of, you need to be able to connect and be really empathetic, but like, yeah, it's just, it's really interesting. And I think that as definitely, as an artist, there's kind of, it's really helped me actually on stage. Because it's like, when you go and sing an award, you can't like just like, say, for example, you were like someone that always only ever had your eyes closed. Like if you went in there and started seeing with your eyes first. That would never work because it's like, you have to be like I'm here. I'm another human. And we're like, connecting, and I'm making you feel really comfortable. And it's 100% not about me, it's about you. And I'm not gonna sing song. Like, there's not really any ego in this. It's about me providing something that's like, great for you. You know, like, yeah, yeah, when you're on stage, it's like, actually, it's really helpful with like, how to kind of be intimate and talk to the audience and stuff. Even if you've got like hundreds of people. It's like, you can create intimacy. Yeah, yeah. It's so yeah, I remember, as a kid singing, our teacher taught us to look over the top of people's heads. He used to teach us not to eyeball people, because I think he thought it would put us off, or, you know, we'd start laughing or whatever. Then I came to this point in my singing that I thought, Oh, my God, I'm connecting to people. I'm just looking at. Similar thing. Like, you have to, you have to look at these people. Because they're in your you're in their space. Yeah, yes. No ego. It's about what you're giving to them. So like, it breaks down that barrier. Yeah, your audience almost becomes a part of your performance. Like, it's not like you're exactly. And then, like, you're all together. Yeah, yeah, I can do that. Yeah. And there are people out there who are like, you know, the greatest. They're certain artists who are so amazing. Like, they can sit on stage with, like, 1000s of people. And it's as though they're like, having a really intimate chat is that you know, yeah, absolutely. That like that relationship with them. Yeah. Yeah. So it's been a really interesting and yeah, you do feel really privileged. It's also you know, it's, it can also be really emotionally challenging as well. I do a lot of, you know, also working with, you know, yeah, kids with cancer are working with, oh, you know, that dealing with loss, which you do, like, or, you know, that is some of the patients we work with are really, really sick. So, that can be really challenging, but also it's like you do equally. The same reason it's really challenging. You get to like, it's also really rewarding, because you're like, Oh, my God, like this person had a really short life. And I made a really big impact. Like the other day, I was just working and I went and like, there was some parents and they were sitting in the room and their child had gone down for theater. So they're obviously like, anxious as you would be if your child is going off to theater. And I went to do music with another little kid in the bay that we're in and the mom before I started, oh my god, like I just need to show you this before she had these really beautiful photos on her phone or when her child that was like about four I think now had been a little Baby to take most photos of me singing to her child. And she was like, Oh, we've had these all printed out. Like they're in this book. You're such a big part of his journey, you know? So like, it's really nice when you're like, yeah, yes, this makes feel emotional. I know. Oh, my God, I could go on. That's a really like, light story. But yeah. I know. I know. Yeah, it's very. So it's it was interesting. Like, I would also say that as the headspace, like, sometimes I feel very pulled in different directions, because it's such, it's like, you need so much headspace that that work is amazing. But it's like you are processing so much, you know, because it's like you're taking in, you're going into like, really emotionally charged atmospheres. And you're trying to like, and you can't go, like you're trying to process something, you know, which can just be that you're, you're there and you're seeing someone dealing with a really complex situation. Or sometimes you see someone that's the same age as your own child, and you're like, Oh, my God, you know what I kind of really resonate with you. Or there's sometimes obviously you do deal with loss. And so it's like, you kind of and it's again, it's very hard to explain that, like you're in this world, and then you come home and then you're trying to like, process that as it takes quite a lot of headspace. And then obviously, then you've got like the headspace then obviously, that that headspace doesn't exist in parenting, you know, like, then you come home, and it's like, you're just there for your family and stuff. And then you're dealing with like, headspace of like, being your own artist. And so it's like, and then you're just doing the headspace of like, I really need to just sort my house out because I just need to decorate or needs to be tidied or whatever, you know. So there's so many parts of you that you're always like, Wow, it really, there's so many different directions isn't there that you feel like you're kind of being pulled in. And, and I really, I, you know, so grateful to have created a life where I am able to do music, you know, like, I'm still into, like, I'm still doing singing and performing. And then with the staff, the hospital work that I'm still doing some, like, I'm still using my musicality to do the work that I do. And that's like, you know, it's really like lovely, and you really get to see the impact of music in a way that you don't see in like many other places, I would say like it just it like, it just lands in that space. Because it's such an emotionally charged space. It's just like, you really see this kind of very immediate impact. If you're not like yeah, it's Oh, yeah, yeah, it's amazing. Actually, I'm getting goosebumps when you say that. It's just like, it's so music is just incredible, like the connections and yeah, out to can transform you from one time to another and totally amazing. Yeah. 100% Yeah. And I think people are starting to see it, like a bit more in a way. You know, I guess that the way that they're seeing that, like, the impact that music can have on dementia patients or like people, you know, that it's like, how like, just stuff that is like, wow, this is kind of magic. Stuff that you see that music does, and it happens literally all constantly with the work we do. There'll be these things that have happened that you're like, Whoa, you know, like this the first time that someone has come out of surgery, like they haven't stood up for days and suddenly the music makes the baby stand out. Well, you know, this is a little you're just seeing like this amazing impact. Yeah, I mean, music is and music is the best thing ever. Think singing is like the best thing and then harmonies best really love. Honestly, when I read like Instagram bio and have kids like I'm like probably 2020 years formally in a in a vocal group. Like because. So harmonies but right right from the beginning of my life. Sorry, I'm gonna I'm gonna talk that was selfish. To talk to a fellow musician. Yeah. My sister and I were there's two and a half years between us and we're both got very similar voices, except she can go lower, and I can go higher, but we're still got the same. Like when we're both singing It's really hard to tell us apart. So we Oh, that's so nice. Yeah, something about blood singing Isn't that likes people when you're related? It's awesome. And yeah, so we've always sang together. We used to mess around and do concerts on the on the Sunday afternoon like push the the coffee table. Table do concerts for mom and dad. And my parents weren't like not they weren't like musical at all. They loved music, but neither of have them actually played or sang but their siblings or mums. Dad was very, very good singer and his mom. So my great grandmother was an opera singer. Not I don't think she was a formal but she had an amazing, amazing. Wow, I never heard it in real life, but I've heard lots of stories. And then my dad's side, his sister and his brother by sing, and his mum was really good thing. And his dad was a good thing I found out later in life. So it was, but it wasn't right there for my sister we just had they just had it in your blood. Yeah. And I first discovered harmonies because dad used to play a lot of American country music like Johnny Cash and Don Williams, and don't John Denver, and they're all obviously male singers. And I wanted to sing along, but I couldn't sing low enough in their register. And because I'm an outer, I couldn't sing an octave up. I mean, I probably could now but at that point, as a kid, I couldn't. So I had to learn a way to sing along. So I just started singing in harmonies, and wow, it was just this innate thing. I don't read like I couldn't read music to get by. But I'm not like a theory person by any means. So things by Yeah. Yeah. And that used to really annoy my, my, or like my organ teacher and my chill. I could read bass clef though. I can read bass clef. Not anymore, but it was really odd how your brain works. Yeah, so yeah, my sister and I've always saying she's always saying that she and I've always seen the harmonies, and it's just we've been like that our whole life. And it's so much more interesting as well, isn't it? Sometimes it's not like, you're like, hey, I want to do the harmony. Today, we'll be talking about how your husband you and your husband get on musically when my husband is musical. And not he doesn't do much these days. But he used to play in a in like a covers band in a country pub sort of environment. And when we first got together, I realized very quickly that he actually sang the harmonies. And I was like, oh, yeah, this is gonna work. That seems like a split second. And Alison, it's okay. And I grew up listening to like, my mom listens to like Crosby, Stills and Nash and I don't like like very much like, I grew up listening a lot to Harmony stuff. And that's kind of how I learned to sing harmonies was like, you know, singing in the car with my mum, and I'd be like, I'll try and do this one. And you do that one, and then she gave to my one. I'm gonna stick to your one. Anyway, yeah, but the staves are kind of like a modern day. I mean, they're gorgeous. You're like, if you're a harmony enthusiasts, they they are incomparable. I would say, you know, I've seen this live a few times and they've got the big sisters have which is like, there's something about blood people like related to each other Singing isn't there but you have sometimes like, is that a magic that you just have? It's like you have like an you have a what's the word? Not a telepathic connection? Is that what it is? Yeah, you can actually read each other and you know what someone's about to do and you can Yeah, like you change at the exact same time it's just yeah, it's always pretty special. Yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah, I've been doing stuff with Yeah, with some new singers recently, some really great singers are doing backing vocals to me and, and they sound lovely, but I was thinking, I wonder if I would do like because I've always done my own harmonies and it is like in tears was saying, oh, you know, actually in a way it's always the best he was like No, I think the best is always having people that blend really well. It was like you know I think the Beach Boys like they've all got so yeah, also you have got away like when you write yourself like in your mind it sounds like Yeah, it's interesting was recorded that you're like, yeah, how so? I've always ended up my own harmonies but yeah, maybe maybe I'll graduate to but it has to be so freakin tight doesn't have someone else's harmonies on your track but they are excellent at blending. And you're so critical of it because you know how you want it done. And you know how you could do it. So you're like yeah, every little bit you like yeah, Yeah, I guess I'm just kind of in terms of stuff that's coming up is like, yeah, it's just I think I'm getting gradually, like a little bit more space and time, you know, as Akira is getting a bit older, and we're sort of settling in here. And things are shifting a bit with COVID. And, you know, you can see sort of a bit of light at the end of that tunnel that, you know, starting to find because when I first moved here again, it was like, it was again, like, how do I you know, bring my identity, this singing identity here, because I kind of, I was in London, and then I came here on a lockdown. And then I really wasn't music. And then it's like, you meet all these really lovely people. But then you kind of also want to share like the other aspect. You know, it's like, yeah, of yourself. And actually, one thing that's been really nice is when I did a gig recently, and it's a fast game I did in Brighton, which is near to where we live, which is the biggest city where the city near where we live. And you know, it's fairly close. But it was really nice to see. All of like, my new neighbors, and we've met some really great people. Yeah, all of our new neighbors, just being so like, supportive and like really, yeah, just really excited and like coming to the gig. And you know, and it's really nice, because I guess that felt kind of, I don't know why it felt so important. But I just really, you want, you know, yeah, you kind of want to feel because I guess music is like, it's such a part of like who I am. It's not this kind of thing that I'm just like, oh, yeah, I just like do this thing. It's like, it feels like this. Yeah, this big part of who you are. So it's like, you kind of want to be able to bring that aspect of yourself. And I guess it's been a real the last couple of years. For me personally, I have found it a real challenge in terms of music, because it's like, you know, all the live, like the whole live industry is pretty much sort of, you know, shut down. And then also like, not even being able to sing on the wards. So it's like, I just had this thing where I've just been, like, you know, for the first time in my life is just like, oh my god, like, I'm sort of desperately trying to do this thing. But then you're like, why this is so feels like such a kind of uphill struggle. But then at the same time, you're like, oh, but who am I if I don't do that, because that is kind of who I am. Yeah, so it's just, it's been really nice to have a bit of time to yet I kind of am starting to feel again, like, Okay, I'm reconnecting with that, you know, like that side of myself doing music rehearsing people performing in like, the last gig that I did, I really tried to enjoy the process as well, rather than just, you know, like all the because it is a bloody lot of work, isn't it when you're doing stuff, but try to enjoy, like, every rehearsals when you're like getting to hear your songs being played and singing harmonies with all these really amazing singers I was working with and like, yeah, so it's like, trying to bring that in, rather than just Yeah. Because if you don't enjoy the process, then it can just feel like a hell of a lot of work, you know? Yeah. Do you think that that's also because? Because you are now a mom. It's like, every little that you do, you're holding on to that, and you see the importance in it. Whereas before it was, yeah, I've got to get this done. And then the gigs the big thing? Oh, yeah, definitely. And I also feel like as a mom, I mean, you get really good at just like, using your time well, don't you because you have so little time, so you get really good. And you know how you asked about? I guess like creatively, a really positive thing about being a mom, is that you don't that you don't wait for inspiration. Do you? If you're like, I need to do something creative. I've got like these hours on a Friday. Yeah, that's my creative time. You know, like, it's not like, I feel like it's just like, No, that is my creative time. Yeah. And like, and also I don't feel like you know, in the evening and stuff, like sometimes in the evening, you feel like doing stuff but equally in the evening. If you're just you know, you're pretty knackered against our writing songs. I mean, it's much more of a like, I'd way prefer to, like get up really early and do stuff like that'd be my my thing. Yeah, so I guess like, because I feel it's funny thinking about all the the way we've discussed stuff because I don't, I don't want to feel it sound like a really negative parent, because I feel like I'm really not. You don't sound like that. Because, like, I feel like but it is, you know, but the reality but I think I'm also very honest, because the reality of parenting is that, you know, it is like in terms of a whole identity of being an artist being a mom. Yeah, like it really is a big shift, isn't it? You're learning it takes time to kind of come to terms and all that to kind of find who you are. And I guess for me, because I have had such an intense like You know, journey of parenthood, like loss of a mother, then the pandemic, there's two, like quite intense things have happened at the same time. So you're like processing so much stuff. And then just finding. Yeah, and then the other side of being a parent is I think it gives you like, freedom with Akira, I think it's also sometimes I'm very much someone that like, feels I'm very much someone that likes to be doing stuff, you know, quite, there's quite a lot of pressure of like, oh, I need to be, you know, I like to achieve things I like to do. So it's like quite a river. And then like, always, like, oh, I should be trying to do this and do that. And I want to write this and I want it you know, there's always a sort of drive. And I think with a, when you have a child, it's been quite good for me to learn to like, just be in the moment as well German and not feel guilty that like, I haven't been creative, like, on that day is like, oh, yeah, you can, like, get some foam out and play on the tray or whatever. You know, it's like, you're just like, in the moment doing stuff with him and kind of discovering things and having like, these days, so yeah, you know, and he's gonna go to school in September. So it's gonna be like, this whole new chapter of like, getting sort of, you know, different time back and stuff. A new chapter. Yeah, it's exciting to look forward to that too, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. next five days. Now, good on. Yeah. And look, honestly, you you have not come across as negative at all. Please don't like that. Because everything you've said, People mums have said it before. It's like, yeah, it feels the same way. It's like, yeah, it's just what it is. Yeah, and it's really hard. I think the difficulty is with parenting, is if you said to something like if someone who hasn't got a child hears this, they'd be like, Oh, that sounds awful. You know, I mean, because but what you don't always like what you can't really express is that sort of sense of love, isn't it? So you don't go around being like, Oh, my God, I love my child so much. It's amazing. He's given me purpose. It's just so brilliant. You kind of like the part that you will be like, yeah, because obviously, that's just like a given, isn't it? So it's like, another parent, you just know, like, yeah, obviously, like, you think your child is incredible. And it's the best thing you've ever done. And it's amazing. Like, that's a given. And it's really hard, because it's this, this, this, this and that, but that's the stuff you're talking about. But like, yeah, so that's the difficulty is I think people would just be like, Wow, that really doesn't like sound. Like, like the benefits outweigh the costs. Somehow, if you and I remember hearing someone say, it's like, if you tally everything up, actually, definitely the costs do not outweigh the benefit. Like there are a lot of costs, but then the benefits are so incredible in that small like that, that it makes it all worth it. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. My I've got a 40 CD and 14 He's turned 14 over a six year old and a 14 year old and my 14 year old the other day. I like not the other day all the time. If we're having trouble with the little one. Alex will go this is why I'm not having kids. I'm not having children and like if he just keeps coming up with this stuff. I'm not doing that. I see how to use b I'm not doing that. Like mate but it is so good. Like you just say yeah, the hard stuff that's the stuff that's loud and gets noticed you know the the activity whatever exactly the challenges, the challenges, but it's all the other lovely things that you're not notice the Commodores isn't it? It's like the cuddles or getting woken up with a little kiss or whatever. Like stuff that you can't really explain that could happen when you have those like hugs and stuff. Yeah, and she's just hanging out and chatting or like we do some painting together and he plays on the keyboard and like just all the other stuff because it's not loud and noticeable. Yeah, he just can't say that stuff. And I said you'll change your mind one time. No, I'm not I'm not either. I think I have so many younger brothers and sisters and I was very much exactly like similar like 14 When I had when my mom had my little sister and I think for that reason. All of my family like my siblings all had kids like what it was anyway yeah, we've all had kids quite late because I think we would just sort of watch the galaxy like wow that is very intense. Yeah, like never have like loads of kids because we're like no, no, no. Yeah. Follows With us get lost. And I feel like I've got quite a unique voice as in like, I think I've got quite a unique experience of parenthood were actually like a lot when when I was going through my own journey of loss and motherhood, like I found it really, I desperately wanted to find people that had that direct because you know, when you're kind of experiencing it, you're so desperate to find connection, because I desperately wanted to find other people that had that specific experience, like, loss, but yet actually losing your mom when you're pregnant. Because that even before after feels so different, like for me, it was so specific. Yeah. And I couldn't find any, I find it really hard to find that. So I feel that I have quite a sort of unique point of view. And there's quite a big sort of gap. Like, there's definitely a space there. And I feel like when I'm in the right space, and as times moving on, I feel like I've got a lot of stuff to write or join me or some way that I can use that experience creatively. Like as an artist bringing that together, like that experience, and whether that comes through in songs or speaking like, I don't know what that's gonna look like, but I feel like there was there's this there's a story to be told in some way. You know, like, that's how I feel about it. Yeah, yeah. Good on you. Yeah. What's the space? And that's the thing. You could be helping by sharing that in your future, the amount of people that you can be helping through that, because, you know, like you said, it's hard to find people have that, that specific experience, you know, totally. And yeah, and there could be loads, but it's just like, I couldn't find like I was there, like, looking on all these platforms, like asking, you know, grief support group like stuff, you know, and it was, yeah. And there were people that had lost their mom, there were like, groups with that, but there weren't specifically in pregnancy. And I was just like, I just, yeah, it'd be really good to like, hear. And I remember listening to one podcast where there was another singer, actually, who had had that same experience. And it was very intense. And like, yeah, listening to that, but it was it was also really helpful being like, Oh, yes, someone? Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, yeah. It's important, isn't it to be to be able to express yourself and, and make those connections? Like, yeah, yeah. And it's so good, what you're doing, like, it's really great, like, made the time and space and like building this thing, because I'm sure it is making a difference to like lots of people. And I think you can leave like, it's so important, isn't it? I guess we're creatives that, you know, yeah. I imagine that for most people. That feeling of your own identity and creativity, and like, you know, grappling with how that exists, and how that CO exists? As a parent, like, yes, it's quite a big thing, isn't it? How that. Yeah. And coexist as well. Yeah, the way you described about that fear of whether you'd get back to the point you were or, you know, remaining in that space, that is a really common thing, like, especially like performers. Yeah, I've really expressed that like, because, you know, when you're, you know, you're building you build relationships with venues or, you know, other bands or whatever, and then you step away from it for for a period of time. And then it's like, you've got to start again, like, maybe someone else is running that venue, and you have the like, or who, who are you and you know, you've got to try and sell yourself again, and just remain relevant. Yeah, there's a lady Georgia fields who I interviewed last year, and she actually runs platform like her Instagram, it's called Finding the mother lode. And her her whole setup is providing resources for moms who are musicians about how to sort of navigate that whole space and how to get back into it all the emotions you're feeling and that sort of stuff. She's really amazing. Yeah, she said the same thing. It's just she thought she had this fear that that part of her life might actually be over. And that was a really horrible thought to have. Yeah, yeah. Because you can't do like, the reality is, life is different. Like you're not the thing is, when you have a kid, like you can't operate at the same, like, life has changed, hasn't it? So it's suddenly you know, you're not going to track up and down the country doing like unpaid gigs, I mean, things are nice. And you're in your 20s, where you're like, building my status as an artist or whatever, like the things that you could do. It's like, you cannot physically do that stuff anymore. Not that I want to do that necessarily. But you know, I'm saying it's like, everything has shifted, so it's like a whole like, how can you still keep building something but then you know, and my husband is like, going on tour in April as well. So then you're always navigating like his staff with my staff and then yeah, it's that's that's the other interesting side of it. dynamics. But yeah, so life has changed. And that's kind of great. And kind of challenging is when it has changed like, yeah, there's nothing you can like. Yeah. Yep. You just got to sort of work through overburdened Yeah. Yeah. And hope that more parents are like speaking about it thank you so much for coming on here though. And it's just been so lovely to chat with you. Oh, no, thank you for having me. It's been really nice to have this chat to it's been really lovely. Yeah, getting to talk about all the stuff that you don't really get to talk about. So it's so nice having someone asking questions about all these things. So thank you. Now it's been a pleasure. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcasts or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom. This thing was done yet though you try so hard those things you won't want to Oh there is inside Combi? Inside distressed distress distressed

Shanelle Franklin Australian MC, podcaster and producer S1 Ep23 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Shanelle Franklin is a presenter, producer, podcaster, voice over artist, MC and writer who is based in Adelaide, South Australia, and a mum of 2. Shanelle has worked in radio, television and the music industry for over a decade with brands such as Channel 9, SAFM, Fresh 927, Foxtel, Music SA and the BBC. She began her career in community radio on Fresh 927 where she presented in the drive and breakfast time slots. It was here that she was able to develop her craft within the media industry. She has worked in television, presenting a national music TV show on Foxtel called Music Room, and she produced, directed and presented her own tv show Jam LIVE which aired on Chanel 9 Adelaide and 9NOW. She has conducted the Red Carpet Interviews and Emceed the South Australian Music Awards, along with many other MC gigs. Currently Shanelle writes and presents a podcast called Motherhood: A Beautiful Nightmare with Tamara Linke, the podcast for the mother who is flying by the seat of her pants. As they discuss topics like incontinence, mumneisia and toddler tantrums, all in a fun and judgment free environment. Connect with Shanelle on her instagram - https://www.instagram.com/shanellefranklin_/?hl=en Listen to Motherhood: A Beautiful Nightmare Find out more about Catherine House Adelaide Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Chanel Franklin. Chanel is a presenter, producer podcaster voice over artist MC and writer who is based in Adelaide, South Australia, and is a mum of two Chanel has worked in radio, television and the music industry for over a decade, with brands such as Channel Nine SCFM, fresh 97 foxtail, music SA and the BBC. She began her career in community radio on fresh nine to seven where she presented in the drive and breakfast time slots. It was here that she was able to develop her craft within the media industry. Chanel has worked in television, presenting a national music TV show on Foxtel called Music Room. And she produced directed and presented her own TV show jam Live, which aired on Channel Nine, Adelaide, and nine now. She now has conducted the red carpet interviews and emceed for the South Australian music awards, along with many other emcee gigs. Currently Chanel writes and presents a podcast called motherhood a beautiful nightmare, with Tamara link, the podcast for the mother who is flying by the seat of her pants as they discuss topics like incontinence, Mum, nasia, and toddler tantrums all in a fun and judgment free environment. So I came first came across you through the South Australian music awards, doing your hosting and the red carpet interviews and interviews with the winners. So you've done presenting producing voiceover work emceeing podcasting that you first got your start in community radio, which I thought was really cool, because community radio, I don't think gets enough credit. No, it doesn't. Yeah, so tell me how that sort of started and, and what made you It's again, one of those things really were community radio and the same with 3d. It gives you this my my start was fresh 97. But 3d is exactly the same radio Adelaide as well. Where you have the opportunity to learn on the job, you make mistakes, you learn from them, that's, that's the key thing. So I used to be an event coordinator before that, and events are great, but they just they they age you before your time, you have the unbelief. You look like you've been dragged through a bush backwards when you finish one of them. As much as I love it, I'm not it's not it's not in, it's not in my soul. And I think until you acknowledge something that's in your soul, and truly what your inner being is telling you that this is your purpose, you'll be met with constant things of trying to guide you in that direction. So the event coordinating was definitely not for me, but it certainly is for so many people that are excellent at it. So I remember having this moment and saying to my husband, I'm miserable. And he said quit. We will just live simply. And we did and I think sometimes the more money you've got the the more you spend I know it's very difficult to just quit your job and whatever. But we ended up living quite simply. And not lavish too in order to still keep our heads above water. We weren't going to get ahead because we were spending some of our savings but savings at what cost you know you need to be happy. Yeah, absolutely threw myself into fresh I gave it my my all and I then decided, Well if no one's going to do it for me. I've got to do it myself. So I ended up grabbing the audio breaks off of the off of the track system that got there and put a reel together and sent it to the highest person in radio Eric who happened to live in Adelaide at the time. His name's Craig Bruce. But he was like the boss of Kyle and Jackie O at the time when they're on today FM. But he loves Adelaide, and this is his home. So I thought, What's What am I going to lose? He's not going to reply. I'll give it a go. And email you can kind of hide behind you a week. Yeah, absolutely. So it was easy to kind of do it that way rather than face to face. And he wrote back and said, you sound great. Come in for a chat. So I did that. And I got on air two weeks later. And now I get up plenty of times. I remember the studio door flying over from one of the content assistants saying what was that air brake and I'm like, I was trying to put a call to air and I press the wrong button and I fired that sweeper off and I didn't really oh my god, like it was just it was stressful. And I was like, Okay, I've just got to give this a go. And then I had an opportunity to move to Hobart to be their afternoons announcer. And I was I really love Adelaide. I don't want to move at this point where I'm thinking about having children soon. Maybe I am not going to do it. So I said to them, I won't go and that was like well if you don't take this opportunity, someone else is going to take it up. So they literally said we've got no more work here in Adelaide. And there was some on my bum is what I felt like and it was a low points I thought I've worked so hard to get here and now it just stopped maybe I should have taken it but I had to consider dance job as well. So it was a tricky time. And then I got picked up by a woman that was producing a music TV show called Music Room. It was airing on Foxtel all around the country. It was low budget, but again a great experience. And she said I'm looking for a female presenter. I thought Great. Okay, audition for that got it with another guy. He was the CO presenter and we did three seasons learn an incredible amount. We filmed it here in Adelaide. And it was a music show that was just for rock and heavy artists. And I know where she was coming from she was trying to create a show because the rock and heavy artist didn't weren't getting enough air time maybe on Triple J or things like that. But then I'm thinking we'll need this the folk Carter's and neither is this and neither is that yeah, there's a lot of genres that miss out so that that for me, I was like something's missing here. So after that, I got a job opportunity to run rip it up magazine. But it was at the time where they just folded the magazine and made it online. So upset a lot of people so I'm like great I'm going to be the scapegoat for everyone being devastated when I wanted the print to stay as well but it was a question of money and who was funding it really. So they so they did that and I thought as much as I love music it's that's not what I want to do. That's not my passion or really want to do the presenting side of it. So I thought okay stuff so I'm going to have a baby this is my quick way out of out of river. And that was that was in my mind. So I was lucky enough to get pregnant quickly with summer I had summer. And then I thought what do I really want to do? Because they just made me redundant when I literally was like I have to go back there. I want to go back so I love music but it's not really what I'm passionate it was that inner being going it's not for you. It's not for you, but I'm kind of ignoring it because it was a safe job and money. I remember sitting on the couch breastfeeding and I got the phone call and they said we're making you redundant we're shutting the whole thing down. And I went right okay, that's a good thing. Maybe it is alright Clean Slate What do I want to do? Maybe I can write a TV show who who bloody nose I literally just decided that I was going to back myself which is hard to do. Because the little person on your shoulder one side Jiminy Cricket as a supporter and then this person here is a pain in the ass who says well you're not a producer you can't do this you didn't you haven't gone to film school you you know, all this self doubt. Yeah. Which can be incredibly damaging anyway because often we listen to the negative stuff more And we talk to ourselves I believe far more than what we actually speak out, huh? Yeah. You know, and and I thought, I'm just gonna do it. Okay. So I wrote wrote a show up. And it was going to be a music TV show that was inclusive of all artists. It was celebrating artists that were traveling through South Australia and playing live music venues. So it's hearing them, but also hearing a local artist every single week. From a variety of different genres. I made sure there was heavy in there, there was folk there was pot, there was soul, punk, electro electronics, I wanted to cover as much as I could. So I presented it to the to Channel Nine Adelaide, and they picked it up, but to say they picked it up, that was a year of back and forth and back and forth. And I literally I felt like I was almost due for a nervous breakdown because I signed up these sponsors to invest in this show. And because you need to pay creatives to work on it, I was 100% going to be that person that was paying people for their work, the film guy, the editor, graphic design, work, all that sort of stuff. And then from there, it literally I had sponsors it invested I had a letter from nine saying we're going to air it but they also could have gone the minute they seen it. Now we're not liable for anything. They said he puts up to our standard we'll air it. So people invested in the show. I spent that money and paid the creatives then sat in the wings and went please add this because if you just put this in the bin, I'm up ship creek without a paddle, but it was just the most terrifyingly living on the edge but so much so that of course so much anxiety. During this old time, I decided it was a wonderful idea to get pregnant with my son what plan Oh, I've got no idea. Shit. Wow. So you've got the you got the 18 month old some are running around little girl, SAS pot, and then so much morning sickness and literally crawling around on the floor trying to appease this programmer at Channel Nine and pretend everything's rosy and you know what? Pregnancy I can do this I like the phone I'm like, oh, like really good. Oh, it was this facade and that I was putting the mask on the whole time. And Lisa Bishop from the external manager from music essays said to me because they jumped on board and they were supportive and she said it's alright you know I've got kids too it's it's hard loving and unloved is really hard like Why have I done a TV show when I'm pregnant and got a baby and I just Oh my god and she wasn't a child carry that so you know you you go to the point where I remember I was on the phone to a Sony record label getting approval to have an artist on and I'd left it for a second because she was carrying on so I thought I'll just go down the hallway to have this cool conversation on the phone with the Sony rep. Having a great time I've walked past she got into the friggin manuka honey. And I took one look and I went I can't do anything about that because I've got this into something cool last yes given her yay. Three jobs she's ever no not my kids got the honey all over the floorboards and they're all floorboards so there's cracks in them on like that's going to be ants for about 100 years Yeah. Oh my gosh. These moments where I've gone oh my gosh, just that's too much. And so we finally we finally got it on so that was that was great. Yeah. And I literally when it was on TV I was hanging my head because our in some of the TV Go Mommy There you are. Like, yeah, let me but I'm hanging on a thread because I was 37 weeks pregnant. And it got on and it was received really well. And it was it was great. And I then was it was due to watch the last episode air on TV and I went into labor Oh well he was only was 37 minute labor so that was trying to get out of me no time for anything except survival is what I was feeling at the time. Yeah, it was just so anyway had him he came out not breathing. So then there's that moment of when we're nothing else matters but but life because it was just a bit quick for him. And then suddenly I had this moment and every TV went down in the hospital. And I thought, well, that's a bit ironic because I think the universe is telling me to just stop and be in this moment with my child. And don't worry about the TV because it was going to end no matter what don't do an Instagram post don't do a Facebook post, just leave it and be with your child who who that was that moment I would never forget because he finally started breathing. You know, so thankful and and then that moment of realization and my husband took a photo of me and it's the most raw photo I've got, I've got no makeup. I'm not an absolute mess. And he's just putting put on my chest and got feta cheese all over his face. And I just held him in like cried and I was like, Oh my gosh, that was just all the tears of everything. Yeah, that I was trying to be the best version of myself and honor my career so to speak and be your mum to summer and be a new mum to Ali and live in this moment and then, a week after the show, after after, I'd had Ali boobs out of control milk everywhere, not sleeping. Great. You know, as women do your bleeding a lot after you've had a baby. And the Channel Nine people say all the one guy said can you have a meeting? I mean, like Sure, sure. Sure. Well, I'll just make it happen. So suck got set summer up with a endless snacks in the back car seat. Dan was still off from work. He pulled into a loading zone, Ollie feed him one one boob was bigger than the other committed to one move. You and he was reflexes so constantly through that threw up so put him in the in the car seat. Dan was idling in the car because you know, they're like the hum of the car. Just you know, release all those emissions anyway, thanks. And then I walked in, and I sat there and had this meeting with this big rig at Channel Nine. And they said we're not going to renew it for a second season. You did great. We did awesome. But music TV is just not where we're going. People were viewing music TV very differently. It's all very online. They don't sit and watch TV like they did count. And this was a very different show to count down. It wasn't on a set it was we were in the venue's filming. And it was it was great. But he was like people aren't watching live TV like that anymore. And I actually in the one season got the same amount of viewers that the loop got on channel 10. So which had a crapload more money behind it. So I was really stoked with that. And one and the second to last week, we actually I beat the football ratings. Oh, we can't get that Kenya. I was sorry. I was like, right. So they put me on at 430 on a Saturday afternoon, which is a tricky time. And you only get the ratings of people that are physically sat there at that point. You don't get the people that catch up. And let's be honest, most of us catch up on TV. Most of us don't just sit where the TV tells us that something's on we work around what we're doing. So that was a kind of a moment. I remember walking out one big big and the other side was lopsided. And thinking to myself, Okay, this is just the different I don't know what's happening and I remember feeling excited for the future. But then two weeks later felt really low. You know, where the where you've had no sleep, and you just exhausted and I thought and now I appreciate the time I had to just be still but as a creative. It's a really restless feeling. We don't I don't think we do very well when we're told to stop. If we stop ourselves, it's fine. But if we're told to stop, and we're halted and press pause, and we can't do our art form, it feels really Yeah, it's not it's not nice feelings. It's you get filled with anxieties, frustration, quit your question, everything question everything is what have I done enough that should have taken that phone call or should have done this should have done that to push yourself more. So I did a stood still for a while. And I then a year later wrote a podcast, because podcasts. In America 80% of people listen to podcasts. But in Australia, it's about 35 to 40%. But the rate here is growing faster than it did in America. So Aussies are really getting this trajectory, because I think podcasts are the medium where it gives the listener respect, because they've actually chosen to tune into unlike radio, again, like commercial TV where it just feeds out you when you've got the car on or you're told to listen to a song or you're told, here's an ad break, or the weather break, the podcast is completely the business choice, whatever they decide to listen to, whether it's crime, whether it's your podcast, whether it's something to make them laugh, it's an active thing. And it is almost a bit of therapy, because they're escaping whatever, they're escaping for a bit and having some downtime, whatever it is, so it is so they're really powerful. When you get into them, and they can be addictive, because you go What else can I listen to and learn? It's great. Yeah. So So yeah, so that was I wrote a podcast idea. And I wrote it with a friend of mine, who is a football star. And she got picked up to do the mix Breakfast Show, and could no longer do the podcast with me. So I wrote this idea. And then it went down the Pope. I remember having a chat with her. And she's like, I'm so sorry. And when it's your friend you like don't make you you chase what's happening for you, you go like back to 100%. And I truly still mean that to this day, I was just sad for myself, that I fell on my bum again. And I remember handing the children a packet of tiny TEDx whether it was the dinner time or not, I didn't care I handed the major packet of tiny Teddy's and just said just watch the Sun TV for a minute. And I went in the pantry and had the ugliest cry. Loud real, like God again. And the end, my face was all fat and bloody puffed. And it was just I it was the release that again, I needed. But I then had this moment where I just needed to fall apart, not in front of them because they'll come over and go What's wrong mommy and white, you're iron and you crying more? starve yourself. And then you look at them. And they're so cute sat there in their Teddy's watching boy, then you cry again. Yes, you have another second wave coming. So you're in the shower, and you do that again, whatever. And then you finally get this thing where you've completely dehydrated. And you pick yourself up. And I literally was in the shower. I love a good thinking session in the shower. And I thought what podcasts do I really want to write, I want to write something that is and I always thought I would never do a career to do with my kids or motherhood. Always thought I'd be different to that. And somehow it's led me to that. So I wrote this podcast that I wanted to share a bit for the mother who's or the dad but mostly the mums flying by the seat of their pants. And for someone that just needs to listen to it and go you know what? I'm going through the same stuff. And it's hard but together we're stronger because that village doesn't exist anymore. Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, it really doesn't and so many feel so isolated and almost don't realize how isolated we are. Until we hear something that someone else does that's the same and we go yes my kid does that to drives me crazy or or the incessant shouting in them with a drill sergeant in the morning to get ready for school we you know, we all kind of do it or issues with the pelvic floor where we worry about doing lloween and knickers or something. All these? Yeah, yeah. So we are actually more alike than we think we are. So I wrote this podcast and I pitched it to a girl that I started off working at fresh with she was volunteering to but when she got picked up by Nova that was when I got picked up by sa femme and then we both didn't work for them anymore. I'm and I said to her, Do you want to start for coffee? And it's one of these things that I am so glad I did we sometimes second guests should I should or not? Should I ask that person for coffee? Should I make that call? Should I send that text or email? Yes. For again? Yes. Because what have you got to lose? Yeah, absolutely say no. Well, okay, it seems a bit but you the worst is the regret or not knowing that's when you feel your crappiest. And it might not be now it's often later that it rears its ugly head. So I just sent her a text and said, Do you want to go for a coffee? And she went, Hey, lady haven't seen you know, just as short. I sent my shout let me you know, halfway. So we did that. And we I pitched it to her. And she went, Ah, yeah, sounds good. I've actually got my studio. She's a voiceover artist. So she's got a little studio that she's, she's made about her husband's warehouse. And it was perfect, because you don't need to pay for studio space. So we threw ourselves into that. And then it all kind of started falling together. Apple did a feature on us early on. And then we teamed up with Katherine house and raised just over $5,000 for their helping a system, we created this chemical to help a sister out. Because again, we wanted to be this kind of help. When you went out one of our fellow sisters needs us we stand up whether whether we're a mother or not, you know, it might be if you're in a position of power to help in a position of power means do have a house and a job, or you know, something like that. So we're all most of us and the majority of us are in that position of power, who might not have a lot we might have been loaded, but we can spare 10 bucks. So we can give up one coffee. Yeah, to donate. So that was the behind that. So we did well there and then it started to creep creep up a bit. And then Apple did a big feature on us only last week. So I remember checking the dashboard of our listeners and it shot up and I went a week prior they needed so they sent us an email, sent us an email and said, Can you submit your artwork a different way? And I've just done it in Canva because it was an easy option. And they said oh, we need it in Photoshop. Fine. I'm gone. Again. I'm not a graphic designer. So I run an old friend and said, I need your help. Please. Can you help me if I send you the elements? Can you just put it in? He said sure. That's fine. He's a muse. Oh, yeah. And he's a bit he's a brilliant graphic designer. He said, Sure, send it over, it's fine. So they sent it back and then they featured us and then since then, we've started to do well with it. But the idea is just to give mums that point to have a laugh and a break and see that their journey is much the same as the rest of us. Yeah, it's almost like it's like a validation that you're not alone. You're like I mean some of these there's the episode titles I've just got to read them out because they're so good. It's a bunch of don't wait your pants which is hair I can relate to that one my you know my amnesia when you're the baby sucks your brain out and you can't think of anything ever yeah x let's talk let's talk six which is good and chic man which I really like this shit well yeah, it's like it is where you're honest it's yeah, it's it's we do get that title of being you know I remember being so caught up with it a few things and work related or pressures you put on yourself that's probably more what it is. And then someone was just not listening. Far out kids like listen, listen to us. Not listening. Actively not listening. I've had their hearing has both been checked. They exceptional here is hearing me banging on about nothing. And I lost my lost my shit. And then you feel so I was like, wow, and then ship on ship on ship on ship. And that's what you do because you go I didn't mean to but actually was your fault that I know, you don't tell them that you just You're so wound up sometimes it is like a rubber band that just goes snap when you're in that moment. Since doing the TV show music, they got me on board to do their red carpet and backstage interviews, which I loved because it was chatting to all the artists and the winners and people coming in. And that was all good fun. But since doing that one of the people that one is nameless for Hansa, and he won the Best International collaboration award last year. And someone asked him, Do you know anyone that can see? And this was at just the last few seminars and he said, Oh, yeah, Chanel, Chanel can MC had an MC the thing in my life, but and I again, there's that short shot of doing that. Figure it out later. Then I had this meeting. And it was to be the it was at the convention center to be an MC for it was the Iftar dinner, which is a Muslim Ramadan thing. So how am I going to say these words, but anyway, I practice, practice, practice, did the MC gig and I felt that I came alive in myself. I was like, I love doing this. This is great. Like I really I just I felt validated, I felt like because always, I loved music so much, but I couldn't seem couldn't play an instrument. And I always thought the presenting side was my connection to it. But now the emcee work to I felt that that was where I could bring something that is inside me rather than something that isn't like playing an instrument or whatever I will sit there and have a vino and just play all the different tunes and just love it so I'll do it on my own don't even need anyone there. So I've got such a passion for it, but I can't bring a skill set to it. Apart from the the art of the communicating and the chatting. Yeah, so once that finished I then got brought on by Flinders uni to do their bands, the MC and book their artists COVID came with everything. Thank you COVID And I was I was cursing COVID for them because it was it was squashing me I was like I've just got this opportunity. And now it's going down the beam going in the bin. And then from there a few other big events like there was a big cheer competition and a few other big things that were coming out of the entertainment center. They needed an MC a school mom put me forward she goes I think Chanel does stuff like that done at once. But who worked it out later. Yeah, I put myself forward for that. It went really well. And then I started then Live Nation contacted music essay and said we need someone to do our ones to watch launch. Who can you recommend? They put me forward. And then suddenly, it all started just the universe seem to be working in my favor for what it seemed like for once. And I said to a girlfriend of mine who did a Reiki session on me because Reiki is fantastic. And she said, Have you ever I said I'm just sick of my career being stopped start stop, start, stop start. And she said think of it as stepping stones. Not stop start one lily pad to the next rather than hold stop progression. And I think when I started thinking of it like that, I actually changed my mindset and felt a million times better. And then music essay said we can't fly over the Triple J presented Can you do it? Sure. Yeah. And then that was that and then I had I just I felt like I was living my true self being out there and I truly loved being a part of the being next to the artists that were winning being amongst the finalists, hearing the cheese being amongst the performers, the Aboriginal opening ceremony like the smoking ceremony. Yeah, that just makes you come alive. I felt really connected to it and truly grateful. So that's that's been me. That's been my my journey of motherhood career a juggle. Yeah, and I've learned as I've failed, pretty much that's been the sense of it. Day Yeah, yeah, there is hearing hearing you express all of that. There's so many common themes about, you know, you can, you can feel that little bit of the self doubt. But you've got to do it anyway. Because you're so you're very open. Like you say to the universe, which is awesome, because I'm the same and a lot of our listeners are so that is so cool. Then you mentioned the Reiki, it's like, you're willing to let go of it and say, right, Oh, am I meant to be doing this? What am I meant to be doing and allow yourself to be guided in that way? There's absolutely no hesitation in that. And that's when you know, I think when you're living the true version of yourself, when your inner being and your physical self match up, it is pure harmony. And it is it is felt you really do feel it. I read a quote in a book once that said, I lied to myself, but my heart never believes me. Yeah, so hard for me. It's basically you can tell yourself, I need to be in this lawyer job, or I need to be working for a good ship boss, but he does pay me well, or whatever, you know, to do all this sort of stuff. But really, you know, you actually know and whether or not you're going, you know, but what I really want to do doesn't bring a lot of money. Find a way to turn that into a business because my husband what he does for work, he loves his golf is obsessed with his golf, and he's obsessed with Liverpool Football Club and Port Adelaide and all that sort of stuff. That's his thing. That's his passion. Some people have a passion and have a job. And they're happy to swap the hats when needed to be and then he's got his dad hat, husband hat friend hat. That makes him happy. Because his dream was to be a professional soccer player. He's 41. So he's an bus with a busted knee. So he's like, Okay, well, I can still do the other things and live and enjoy that. When I've got my job. Me I need to my job needs to fill my soul. I'm a Pisces, I feel things real deep. And I need it to, to I can't just I don't want to switch those hats. I want them to to be in as one. But one thing I did find really important was that I had an outlet away from my kids away from my husband away from my work. Yep. Which is my presenting MC work. I needed something completely different. And I found kickboxing. So it's bloody great. Anyway. Great time. So I go there twice a week. And this is a pressure report. And so so the kids come home from school. Yep, I'm like, right, throw him in a shower, and or a bath, use your shower, because a bath means that the it's reminiscent of a raining rainforest in there after they've left. It's like a slip and slide for me. I got to tell them often I slip. Oh, good driving up. So I put them in a shower quickly. Because the those nights I need them to be doing what they're told. And then I get them dinner. And then when dad comes home, all he has to do is do readers with summer read only a book and put them to bed and have a little play. So then I'm not at the minute he's coming home shoving it all on him. And then it's he's like, I'm struggling with this. So I feel like I've ticked those boxes. Now I can do it. This is what we do. We try and get it all organized. And then I'd go there for one hour, no phone. No, I'm uncontactable for one hour of that day, and I just do my thing. And it feels good to just give it a feel that I come home and I'm in that even though they're in bed some of some time still shouting, using every excuse under the sun is why she doesn't need to go to school tomorrow. Half anyway. Oh my god. She's a teacher. And then there's money. I I love you. I love you too. Please go to sleep. So I've come in, but I'm in the best mood because I've had that release. Yeah, that's somebody who's been really powerful because if works been frustrating or tricky, and the kids you know, be it's been, it's been a day, let's just say that's my way of just forgetting about everything and having a reset whether someone chooses to meditate. Another I read in a book recently about meditating and you can literally set your phone for 10 minutes, set the alarm for 10 minutes, put it on flight mode, and just be at peace and know that you're not going to over you're not going to go into this deep state where you are going to not forget to pick up your kids from school or sorry gonna forget to pick them up. You can just have 10 minutes to yourself and that's powerful too. We need that reset away from the whole thing. Oh yeah. That Is this something that every mother that I speak to on this is exactly the same thing. And that's thing, it doesn't have to be some great big thing. It doesn't have to be that you go out, you know, for hours and do some crappy thing. It's the hour at the kickboxing or the 10 Minute Meditation, as long as it's something I think is consistent. And that you can say, Yes, I'm going to do this, it's important enough to you. And yeah, like, make, make it so it's easy for the people that you're leaving at home, you know, like what you've done, you've you've got it all prepared. And then you're like, right, I don't have to worry about anything, because I know that everything's sorted. So it's Yeah, I think it's just so important is just that the most important thing really, is because I'm a better mother and a better wife. And then absolutely say, and I think when you live with a creative when you're not, I mean, everyone's creative in their own way. But when they don't do it for a living, when they've got more of a job, that kind of makes sense, or maybe a little bit more serious in like, let's say a banking field or a law field, as opposed to being a musician or another type of creative credits can be up and down a lot. And it doesn't mean that they're manic depressant or anything like that. And some of them are, and that's absolutely fine. But that doesn't mean you need to label them. It's just it's just, they're in their head a lot. And they have moments of feeling wonderful about things. And then sometimes they're just feeling like they're plateauing a bit. And I think that that can be tricky, too. So doing that kickboxing for me, is the best way that I go and reset, you know, you could be getting, you could have got an email that just wasn't wasn't the email you're hoping to get. And then you wear that on your shoulders all day real heavy. And then the kids are at you, for whatever reason the dog has put on the lawn and you've stepped in it all the just it does. It's got it's one of these things, it's never usually one thing, usually piles of things that we don't realize are accumulating until someone puts that last little bit and then it all goes bowl. And then we wonder why we're feeling so exhausted, tired, overwhelmed. It's the stuff we didn't realize was piling up before. Yeah. Yeah, then if you can, if you can knock down that pile, just like you know, by doing these things for yourself, just not allowing it to just keep keep going and going going. Exactly. That's really good advice, yeah Absolutely. Because mental health is something that I mean, I've got my own background with mental health and a lot of people I speak to have, but I feel like it's still not something that we're really great. I mean, we're good at talking about it. But the people listening to us perhaps aren't that great at listening and accepting and going oh, yeah, that's actually normal. Yeah, it's I'm finding in this in this podcast that people are being so honest, it's actually that same thing of like, people realizing with with your podcasts with the mums, we all have these things that go crazy. And we all have the same experiences and we've mental health to it's like it's actually normal. It's actually part of life. Yeah, you know, and we throw kids in the mix too. There's a whole lot of different levels of hormones and things going on that again, it's that hat moment where you're like I don't have a minute to cry and then a banks up for the next time. So you're wondering why you crying harder the second time because it wasn't the right moment for the kids needed. You're at that point. So you kind of just pushed it to the back of your mind, but I think mental health Is, is such an umbrella term. And I think every mother at some point, several times will go through their spurts of it, whether it be good, especially because you're still trying to live that version of yourself, be there for everybody else, it is really tricky. And a lot of mine was down to my work being frustrated me and just giving me what I what I did see was roadblocks. But now I kind of look at it as a stepping stones while I was trying to be a mother. So I'm having these moments of self doubt constantly, until I finally started to put the pieces of the puzzle still coming together. And when I had that Reiki session, my friend pulled a card for me and said, keep the faith. And literally weeks later was when that second MC gig came. Yeah. And then I started getting all started getting really great feedback, which was incredibly humbling, but also nice for me to feel that what path I thought I was on is right. And I am I in a different spot to what I was, when I did the TV show, yes, but so much happier, like doing the podcasts. And during my MC work. I am so much happier than what I was on on SFM. And during the TV show. Something still wasn't right. But I felt I needed to learn. I learned so much. And I'm so grateful for those experiences. But I feel like my career's evolved, and I'm happier for it. Because where it looks now is not where I thought it would look back then. But I'm ungrateful because it was obviously the universe's plan to say, we needed to stop that season of jam live, but only one to give you one for the experience. And then you're moving on to the next journey of what that's going to be. Yeah, at that moment in time. I felt really low and really bloody sad. And I'm like, is it the breastfeeding? Is it the fact that my son has reflux? And I can't put him down? Is it the fact I've got an 18 month old who's very attached to me, mommy, mommy, mommy, or what? I didn't know why I was crying, I was just crying. But then you get to the point where you know, you give yourself more credit than probably what we've been given in the past or that we give ourselves. You take a look into the things that you have done. And you give yourself that validation that you deserve. Because there's no better thing to do than to back yourself. That's the thing everyone else validating. Yes, yes. You've got to back first. Yeah. And that's the thing to you. It's sort of reminding me of when you said right at the beginning, how you, you were doing your announcing on the radio, and you thought I'm gonna make up this little show reel of all my little grabs of stuff and just go for it, you know, like, no one's gonna mean, it will I say no one, but some people this happens, but no one's literally going to tap you on the shoulder and say, hey, I want you to come and do this. Like, you actually have to be our way to go. Yeah, I was waiting for it that whole time for someone to tap me on the shoulder and say, Chanel, we're gonna plunk you here, or do this, and it didn't happen. And I that's when I was like, well, the again the age old saying that if you want something done, do it yourself. And that if you have an opportunity, you need to you need to just you need to do it if it's innate in you and your inner being is telling you this is what your purpose is. Get up, send that email, do that thing that you need to do to start that progression and Rome was not built in a day. So it won't happen overnight. You will get roadblocks but if it was easy, everyone would do it. One more saying which is my absolute favorite Oprah when you know when when you know better you do better. That's that sense of me now being so much more proud of what I've achieved as a sense of where I was on the radio and on telly going. I still didn't feel as grand as I thought it would feel I'm here now I'm doing it. I'm on SFM I'm on channel nine. This is great. And I'm like I'm still I didn't know whether I didn't have a chance to enjoy it because I was pregnant. Or I don't know or I was trying On a high debt with baggy tops who does that? Just wear your belly wet be proud of that. But I felt shamed a bit because I thought I'm not cool being pregnant on telly at a music festival. I should be home singing Kumbaya with nice tunes that were you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, place I felt really out of place until someone like Lisa Bishop who's a mum herself from from music essay said it's okay. Chanel, you can celebrate what you're doing. Show show your bumper off. And I reckon I hid my pregnancy for a good six months. And I shouldn't have Yeah, you can play play doh. Yeah. Yeah, so I shouldn't have, I really should have allowed myself to celebrate that. Yeah, again, the girls that were on TV for music were not pregnant. And they were just a bit younger than me as well. They seemed cooler. So that was what I was trying to emulate when really I wasn't being true to myself. And the better way was to just be me. Knowing this now. So when you know better you do? How's that played? Out? Right now? Oh, that's not the bag and go happy? Want to ask you. This sort of ties into was saying earlier about what we learned from our mothers and they learned from their mothers? Is it important for you, for your children to see you in your own identity as Chanel? Yeah. 100%. And you know what, I had this conversation with Dan, the husband. And he said to me, Chanel. Some people just don't get to he's he's seen the rise and fall. He's seen me get these opportunities, and then me crying a heat when they have just not gone the way I thought they should have at the time. And he said, some people just don't get to do their dream lobby like and I and I, for me that didn't sit well. Because I was like, No, I'm going to because I need to do it for myself. What am I going to ask that? Because I can see I'm having this premonition of me being 50 or 60 years of age and kicking myself for not trying at least so and he said, the kids, you're an amazing man, the kids love you so much. And they will be proud of you if you just worked in a cafe or whatever. And I said, but I'm not proud of me. Yeah. Because you can work in a cafe. Absolutely. If that's what you want to do. But it wasn't what was in my soul to do. And I said, they need to see their mom chasing the path that is right for her, and then encouraging them to do the same thing because they're learning from me. Don't just stand still because it's easy to do. So. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, if it was easy, everyone would do it. So I said to him, I need them to be proud of, of what I've achieved that I was true to myself. And as I'm getting getting older and talking to different people, people's truths are different. So someone might want to be a doctor, someone might want to own their own cafe or health food store, work in childcare work in the music industry. It's also different to what makes you marched and beat of your own drum. Yeah, but is that was one of my main drivers was that my children were able to be not proud of me, but just see, because I think that when you do what's innate in you, there's a glow about you. Yeah. And I can feel that energy in that sense. And I want them to do the exact same thing with you. If my son's obsessed with Ben trucks, stinky Finn trucks. Drive a big truck for the rest of your life, mate. You ready? Go for it? Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Happy. That's what that's the thing you know, like I can imagine both of them running away from the microphone. They're just not like me in that sense. Yeah. But whatever it is, it's in your soul you do it and and back yourself first and then others will back you two pages How do you feel about followers of your social media or colleagues, knowing that you do have children, you sort of happy for them to be aware of that. I often feel that it's gives a sense of who you are really, as a person when you because we, yeah, I spent time hiding them away. And not from the media spotlight, but from the fact that I was trying to have it all together and my kids, you know, you need to just thought now I just need to bring them along with the journey. And I've brought all the team meetings before and he's watched trucks and on my phone who not great, but it needed to happen. Yeah. And then you move something spilled his snacks all over the floor. And it's really embarrassing. And I was trying to scrape by he cuz yeah, that's the thing. We just need to don't worry about it, bring them with us get stuff done, because what we're doing multitasking is brilliant. And it has not been done before. Yeah, absolutely. It's like we're paving the way for the future, paving the way for fellow sisters that will come come up the ranks and need us to set the platform. Because half the time we haven't had the chance to learn off of a lot of people. Oh, yeah, it's literally like flying by the seat of your pants is a great explanation for it. Because you're you're like, is this gonna work done? I haven't done this before. Gonna give it a try. What's gonna happen? You know, you're just feeling your way as you go. Yeah, I think it's contagious because other women then in a similar position might go you know what, I'm gonna do that, because I needed that reassuring kick up the bum to do what's right for me, you know? Talking about mom guilt, oh, I had this moment recently where I was, uh, my little one kept asking me to record him doing some tricks on the trampoline. And I went out there and I was so ready to record him. And he's doing his tricks. And I realized I hadn't hit record. Because I ma are in storage is full. And you've taken too many pictures of the kids. And there's deleting them. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a great topic. That one, isn't it? Isn't it? Oh, and you go through and you're like, actually take none of myself. And not that we could walk around taking selfies, but would be nice to have some, you know, inclusion on your phone. Because they're all of the kids doing their little moments of grandeur, aren't they? Oh, yeah. We're always behind the camera. We're never in front of it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that's like a whole topic. That one is pretty well. I think this is innate in us, even though and this is probably applicable to a lot of women that you deal with being mothers in the arts industry. In the media industry. We're used to being on the front of things because of our art form, whether it is emceeing speaking, presenting, playing an instrument singing anything like that mentoring, when you get your children you're on the back because you push them forward to shine in whatever they're doing whether it's so summer's teacher, my five year old she's asked her to read a little sentence at the liturgy on Friday so I've literally move mountains to go and see this one sentence. I'm making a practice practice Indian getting right what one thought he said to carrying on and anyway I was because of COVID you can have that many people there. So it's just you know, a small amount so I was literally moving heaven and earth to make sure I got a spot at this liturgy so I can wave and record the whole thing on my phone. Yeah, and maybe watch it back after I've had a few videos. isn't having to. Yeah. And then so that's the thing we push them to the front of they're the kind of shines in our life. But when you put your work hat on, you are the opposite of that you're the woman that's either you know, you're playing your instrument, or you're talking on the microphone, or whatever it is. Yeah. So it's funny how we kind of wear many hats. Absolutely, and are able to just like, swap them in, in a millisecond, like it's even milli second, there's no hat stand is no time for the hat stand. Instantly, and then your friend needs your help. So you're instantly there for her or him, whatever, whatever. Whoever is needing you at that point. And then you're back on the Mon bandwagon because you've realized it's 530. And you've not sorted dinner. So then, you know, all the time. Yeah, it's so true. It's incredible. I saw a image main things on Instagram yesterday, and it was of a mom, that was, you know, how you have those plates, spinners, and you've got to keep the plates going. And it was like all the different elements of what moms and I noticed that whoever wrote it hadn't put your own. When I looked at, I think, when you're supposed to do your own thing, like your music or your you know, it was like that wasn't even on there. It was like, Oh, my God, like add that in as well. And it was just well, and that's where I think if you don't add that in, you run into trouble later on. It's a difficult task to put it in. It's, it's something we've got to be really conscious of, and really mindful of, but I think if we don't have that element of putting ourselves not before our kids, but making ourselves a priority to Yeah, or something else. You know, it's, it's really, it's, yeah, it's so important. Because then you go through something where you later on your kids don't need you as much anymore. You always need your money, but as much and then you're trying to fill that void with other things where you and then there's that regret where you missed out on doing that for yourself. And I think we're better at doing that now. I think our mom's generation, our grandmothers, I think learned the hard way. Yeah. And then some of them now at age 50, and 60 are living their best version of themselves, because they've realized they've got that freedom. Where is that? When given that, that grace or that exception? Years years ago? Because you were told to just follow what your mom did? You did what her mom? Do they do what her mom did? Yeah, you know, so now we're kind of having this awakening where we're celebrated for having children and doing this as well, because it's not just that we're able to multitask, but we're able to show that the talents that we do have in a certain area. Yeah. And it's like, I've always struggled with this, this identity thing that deep down, like, you're still the same person that you were, act, like you just happen to have a child. It's like, why should all that, you know, goodness and potential and you know, the stuff you give to the world? Why should that just go? Not finished, your mum now, doesn't matter. Yeah. And the thing is, we work so hard in our careers in our early years, you know, especially in the arts, a lot of that is volunteer work based to get base there to get your skill set up to get your name out there to get runs on the board as far as experience, because nine times out of 10 There's no better way of learning something than just doing it. You know, you study at university, and that's all great, but having actual tangible experience doing something, or you know, playing an instrument, the best way to play an instrument is to do it. Public speaking, emcee work, it's all of that. So it's, it's really, it was really something that I think once you start to get that in in a row, and really start to get some runs on the board for yourself, then you get to the point where you're clock's ticking. And you feel like you're literally two versions of yourself because you're like, I want to have children. I've got that yearning, but I'm just starting to get somewhere. And it's like, and then you finished your apple. Oh can I have the chocolate chip biscuit? I promised him a chocolate chip biscuit if he sat quietly. Oh my gosh, that was the best timing. That was amazing. 73 So sorry, no, no, no, you're fine. Honestly, it's this is being a man. Exactly. Yeah, just just say you get that moment of where you start getting some traction in your career, and then something else innate in you comes a knockin, and then that knot gets louder and louder and louder and you can't ignore it but you're torn between doing what you want. to do and what what is what your body wants you to do. And there's no shame in whether you have children or not. But if there's a desire in you, it's very, very difficult to turn that switch off possible. So when you said before, like you just said, you're choosing between what you want to do, it's literally and what you want to do, like you want to do both things. But how you actually do both things. Like it's just this constant, like the juggling out, it's just yeah. And it was interesting. You said earlier, you're doing you do what you want to do. It's not at the expense of your children. You're not saying you're not putting yourself first that's what it was. It's not like you're choosing put yourself first, but you're choosing to acknowledge that part of your life has been worth and it's important that you are going to choose to do that. Yeah, it's not at the expense of everyone, anyone else. You know what I mean? You know, I think a lot of that stigma years ago, where they would have assumed that you are just selfish, and putting yourself first couldn't be any more further from that. Because the love that a mother has for her child is something that science can't explain, the best poet can explain in words, it's felt so deeply, rather than and it can be described as best possible but it's it's so deeply felt that's where so many mothers have turned around to each other and go now, you know, that feeling? And they agree, yes, they get it. So it's not possible to for a mother that wants to be there for her children to just go, oh, well, I'm putting myself first it's not that it's acknowledging that you are a priority to and that you deserve to still be who you are. Because often we're having children at an age where we have still sick, we're not having them at 50 years of age 60 Some, some women are but very unlikely. We're mainly doing it between the ages of 25 and 45. Yeah, it's like we're still young to do what we want to do in our careers. change careers. 5060 Yeah. Yeah, whatever it is, where they go, You know what, I never did this. And I'm kicking myself, but I'm doing it now. Great. Yeah, absolutely. Motherhood and work is no mean feat. And it is incredibly challenging. But I think what's more challenging is the not doing and then not owning who you are, and then not giving yourself an opportunity to shine. Like you being a singer, an incredible singer, I might add you you get this opportunity where if you weren't using your voice and writing music, theory has the opportunity to hear you music and in itself has the opportunity is this art form really that that allows people to feel something when they hear you. And most artists are truly themselves when they are either playing that instrument or sing that song. Most often that they're most often that songs. So what if you're not using your talents that have been the universe has given to you? What a waste? You? Yeah, absolutely. Give yourself back yourself. Know that? Yes, it's it's certainly not easy, not easy at all, by any stretch of the imagination. But what I feel is worse is the lighter the not doing the regret because then you can't change it. That's it, isn't it? It's buy time back. So if there's any any kind of kick up the bum, if anyone needs anything is that moment where you said you were at your your old workplace. And you said I just had this moment of realizing that I needed to follow my passion. And the passion just came things just have a funny way of linking up. Oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah, you just gotta you've got to be, you've got to be open to it. You've got to be like, right, I'm willing to not be in control of this, you know, that little bit of surrender to say, right. Do with me what you will, I guess? And, you know, lately leave me where, where? Where might you know that I'm going to be happy, you know, I'm going to be fulfilled. And yeah, you know what, I also had a conversation with one of my best girlfriends the other day and she said, I'm just feeling lost. I don't want to go back to my old job. But I don't know what I want to do. And I said, the fact that you say that now and she said I'm frustrated because I need to know, I'm getting impatient. I want to know what I want to do. And I said, You got to take your foot off. For starters, take the pressure off yourself and know that if you don't want to go back to your old job, fine, that's something you definitely do know that that's not right. So sit with it for a bit, had these moments of either like meditation or just calmly thinking, I want to I am open to receiving whatever it is that's out there for me. So do some soul searching, don't get frustrated with yourself that you don't know. Just start that those moments of trying to figure it out slowly step by step, because once you've gone one step, two step three step and you've linked up those little lily pads. That's quite a journey. Hmm. And you will get Yep. But there's there needs to be that moment in time where you take the pressure off yourself and not knowing to, which is ahead. So you're so vulnerable, and you're at the whim of whatever. And if you're used to being in control, it's very confronting thing to do. Yeah, especially. And often sometimes we feel that we if things aren't going right in the workspace that we not hide behind our kids, but just throw ourselves into that role more, because we're not ready to make the decision to do a leap in our careers yet. Yeah, because what I would say to that is, that's, that's fine. If you want, if you if you all you want to do is spend all your time with your kids, that's if that's in your soul, and you go for it. But if you're using it as like a bit of a not a hide behind, but a moment to not spend time thinking about what's truly deserving of you, it's only going to fester and get more frustrating and more, you know, pent up. So that's where you go, Okay, well, I am going to spend time with my kids, I'm going to just enjoy them for a minute. But I am also going to take that time to slowly map out my next chapter. Because they will go off to school. And they will, you know, start to be a little bit more independent. When then when you have that time, then that's when maybe you can send other big seeds to things, send those emails or look to do courses, the amount of people that have gone back to do courses, you being one of the mature mature age. The amount of people that have gone back to to study later on because because what they wanted to do has made sense later, it didn't make sense to you to work in childcare. When you were 20 years old, it never entered my mind ever been to the right time. So it was that's where they said you needed to do some other things first, and you were at that prime moment where you could give your maturity you could give your your knowledge. And you could give yourself that that real sense of okay, I'm at a point now where I'm ready to learn because not a lot of us know what we want to do. The minute we finish year 12. Honestly, this is thing I'm not looking forward to my son, my oldest son's in high school is his first year. My youngest son's just 10 seats. So we're highly different ends of things with schooling. But yeah, this thing with Alex, they're saying to him, or what do you want to do start thinking about subjects and it's like, no, stop this. And I keep reminding him, I say to him, remember, I've only been doing this job for nearly nine years, you know, you don't have to decide now, like take that pressure off yourself. Like often it's there's not a lot of, of us that it makes sense. The minute we leave school, and that frustrates us because we go we need to get you know, especially as mothers, we need to get this time in before we have a baby. We need to you know this rush, rush, rush, rush, rush. And that's where I'd kind of come in and remind and say, well, there is time before, during and after. Because people can't get away this day and age just being discriminatory towards mothers and women and pregnant women. It's not allowed. It's a big fat no. And we're deserving of that, that that grace to be given to us. And that that moment of reassurance where we go, You know what, you can do this, because you are more than just who you are to your children, you are still yourself too. And if you combine those two wonderful elements, you live your best version of yourself. Like that was the second best quote. That was brilliant. On that one that is gold. That is on. Oh, please. Thank you. Shinya. That's a beautiful note to end on. Actually. Thank you. That's Oh, my pleasure. To be involved. I was as I said, I was peeling off my fake eyelashes. When your email came through, and I was thrilled to be it so I thought, what better way to start your morning then chat With a like minded sister and have a coffee. No thank you. distraction device that my son moved to biscuits. Oh, I love that. Oh, you had any of your kids come in whilst you've been doing the nasty No, I haven't got to go there even Dan will give me a hug in the kitchen. Yeah, some will be like Stop. Don't Don't don't like it. Yeah. Get your hands off mom. Y'all wanna talk? Wait, okay now from the beginning, motherhood beautiful nightmare. When your child eats something healthy that you make, and they will sit down, and you are literally strutting in the kitchen as if you are Beyonce. You are like Jamie Oliver, you've just served the queen. You know, a palm reader did tell me it looks like you've been treading water your whole life until you're 50. As in the thing you meant to do is not going to happen to you. 50 on my for another lesson that's treading water. I'm like, that's a long time to wait, lady. Yeah, some good legs. I'm gonna we're gonna do in that time. Read a book. First thing I was thinking with my vagina. Like, yeah, isn't it what you know, asking the obstetrician that couple a couple of small sutures, but we're okay. bodies just come away from the top. But it's fine. Have you ever had a push present? I got my son's weird my third ring. My vital Is it better? Yes. Tell us more about your bottle of the eternity ring. As you said Hang on. Do you say eat turd? If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Holly Norman Australian professional musician + wellbeing practitioner S3 Ep81 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week I am pleased to welcome Holly Norman to the podcast. Holly is a musician and wellness pracitioner from Perth WA and a mum of 1. When Holly was growing up, her dad used to listen to big band jazz records at home, and early on she was listening regularly to classic swing and big band – Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong and so on. At the age of 11, a self confessed, late starter Holly took up the drums. She went through high school and university as a dyed-in-the-wool classical percussionist and back then you couldn’t have paid her to get behind a drum set. Once she started playing in bands in her mid-twenties, Holly realised that there was a whole world of music that could become accessible to her, if she moved over to drums. As a musician Holly has worked with the likes of The Cat Empire. Ash Grunwald, the Australian String Quartet, and the West Australian and Canberra Symphony Orchestras. She released her own EP of original songs in 2013 called Hollypop , recently released a single called It's Only Weather in late 2022, and has a new song out now, called Isolation , written about the covid-19 lockdown periods experienced over the past couple of years. Holly spent 10 years as an event producer and arts manager, working on some amazing projects like the Melbourne International Jazz festival, Perth PRIDE Parade, and Perth International Jazz Festival. Holly is also passionate about health and wellness practicing yoga for over 15 years and she's also a yoga teacher. Musicians need so many different types of mobility, and functional/postural support to play their instrument, so Holly developed the Yoga for Drummers session. She is really passionate about keeping musicians safe and ensuring longevity in the industry. This episode contains discussion around miscarriage and loss. Connect with Holly - instagram / website / facebook Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Holly's music is used throughout today's episode, with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoy honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Welcome to another episode of the podcast is a pleasure to welcome you from wherever you are in the world. Whether this is your first episode, or your at first, thank you so much for being along for the ride. I've just come back from a week away with the family in a city called Ballarat, which is about three hours away from where I live here, Matt, Gambia. It's over in Victoria and it was lovely to be out of my own space somewhere completely different enjoying the sunshine, swimming, being a tourist and sightseeing and spending a lot of time with the family. Although the car trips with the two boys in the back, were always a bit of fun and the huge pile of washing that we've accumulated. Now that we're home is also great. I'm sure many of you can relate. But nevertheless, today I'm very excited to welcome Holly Norman to the podcast. Holly is a percussionist a singer, a songwriter and musician from Perth in Western Australia, and she's a mom of one. When Holly was growing up, her dad used to listen to Big Band jazz records at home. And early on, Holly was listening regularly to classic swing and big bands such as Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, and Louis Armstrong and so on. At the age of 11. A self confessed late starter, Holly took up the drums. She went through high school and university as a dyed in the wool classical percussionist, and back then you couldn't have paid her to get behind a drum set. Once she started playing in bands in her mid 20s. Holly realized that there was a whole world of music that could become accessible to her if she moved over to the drums. So that's what she did. As a musician, Holly has worked with the likes of the cat empire, Ash, Grunwald, the Australian String Quartet, and the West Australian and Canberra symphony orchestras. Holly's also released in a piece of her own work, entitled Holly pop, which is available through Bandcamp. And you can find that through the link in the show notes. Holly spent 10 years as an event producer and arts manager working on some amazing projects like the Melbourne International Jazz Festival, the Perth Pride Parade and the Perth International Jazz Festival. Holly is also passionate about health and wellness, practicing yoga for over 15 years and she's now a yoga teacher. Musicians need so many different types of mobility, and functional and postural support to play the instrument. So Holly developed the yoga for drummers sessions, which can be found via the link in the show notes. This episode contains discussions around miscarriage and loss. The music you'll hear on today's episode is from Holly herself. There's a little bit of holly solo on her piano self accompanied and with her behind the drum set for her jazz quartet. Thanks again for tuning in. It's a pleasure to be with you and I hope you enjoy my chat with Holly. name is Deanna Manzi. Season seems to be thanks so much for coming on today, Holly. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks you for having me. Yeah, it's a real pleasure. So we were just chatting before we hit record that you're in Perth and the massive time difference between Perth and the rest of Australia. So it's 12 o'clock here. What time? Is it over there? It's 9:30am. Yes, it's a three hour time difference in summer. Yeah, that's yes. Yeah, it is. Yeah. We just got back from Canberra a couple of days ago. So my husband's family lives there. So we spent Christmas there. And yeah, luckily, it actually didn't hit us too hard with the sort of body clock adjustment for my daughter who's two and a half. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was expecting it to be more of a pain. But as soon as she got back in bed, she just has slept like a dream. So that's really nice, actually. Yeah, yeah, that's a consideration because I don't like you were saying you don't have daylight savings there. But whenever the clocks change here, like there's this whole big Yeah. How do we manage daylight savings with the calculator? Yeah. I mean, we we had our daughter in Melbourne. So the first 18 months of her life, we were there. So yeah, we did have to do a little bit of that when she was still a baby and napping. And I remember trying to adjust to like, how do you get them to think it's an hour later or an hour earlier? Like starting the naps? Like 15 minute increments like Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's so funny. And the other kids just they just click into it. Like, you know, like, I don't know, just bizarre like, because I've got two kids and they're just completely different. So yeah, you just never know what's gonna happen to Yeah, totally Divi? You're a musician, you do some other things, too. But is musician, your first sort of passion, your first love? Yeah, it definitely is my first love. It's interesting, the whole kind of, I guess the topic of like, how you identify yourself, because I haven't made I haven't tried to make my living from playing music for a really long time. And that was sort of a deliberate choice. I had a day job. For the last, I want to say 10 years as a event producer and arts manager. So I sort of did that as like a nine to five. But yeah, the music part has always been there. Since I was in high school, really, it's, I would say it's like the great love of my life, for sure still is even more so now. Like coming out of the pandemic and and rediscovering music and what it means to me. Yes, definitely the main thing. Yeah. Do you remember how you first got into music? Yeah, it's funny. I was actually talking to someone about this yesterday, we're talking about Disney movies, because my daughter has just entered like the frozen phase that phase. I reckon Disney is like the reason that I'm I took out music. I loved the way that it could merge narrative with musical form. That and yeah, when I went to high school, I went to a school that was some specialists music. So we did a lot, a lot of music there. And when I arrived, I was sort of felt like I was a little bit behind the other kids because there were lots of lots of families and lots of children that came from these big like classical music sort of dynasty families and had been listening to records and like knew all this repertoire. And I didn't really have that kind of an upbringing. Like I there was lots of music played in our family home for sure. Like I was brought up on, you know, all of the sort of classics, but nothing classical music. So when I went into that style of studying and that sort of foundation of learning music. I used to take myself into the State Library actually on a Saturday morning is such a nerd and like listen to record of like, you know, Beethoven and yeah symphonies to try to catch up on all of the learning that I felt like I'd missed. I was Yeah, I was just really obsessed by that the sort of properties of music telling a story and Star Wars and big scores. Stuff that I just loved it like the kind of majesty of it all. Yeah, when you say about Star Wars, I've got I keep like things that inspire me. Because I just love here you can hear a Tiny Toon and relate that to a character and relate that to a whole storyline. And then you just taken into this whole world, like, I just find that so amazing. I just love that. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. My first instrument was actually the flute, and I was the world's worst flute player. So when I was a child, you could have opened a can with my face like I had such a pronounced Overbite that I had I had a full Year flute lessons with a very, very patient, lovely woman, who at the end of the year took my mother aside and politely said, Holly has musical aptitude. But I think it's best if she were to play an instrument that doesn't require her mouth, as you know, as an ombre. Sure. Yeah, I couldn't make a sound after a full year of lessons. And that flute teacher specifically said, for some reason, take her to have have lessons with this teacher who teaches play percussion. So yeah, that was the instrument because you know, you just hit it. So you don't need big lungs. You don't need an Ambusher you don't need to use your mouth. She was obviously thinking that I was rubbish at all of those things. Right, yeah. Yeah, like, I guess that's like, the instruments sort of found me by like being disqualified from other instruments that I yeah, I just, I really fell in love with it. It's it's quite physical, I suppose percussion, which I enjoyed this, like, you know, striking the instrument. And the variety of it really appealed to me. So I'm, I'm a sort of being multi passionate is a pretty core facet of my personality. So with percussion, you know, we never really had to choose one instrument like you can have you play snare drum, xylophone, vibraphone, bass drum crash cymbals timpani? Like you get to play everything at the back of the orchestra. And that that really appealed to me, I think, being able to sort of jump from one thing to the other. Yeah, and keep keep things interesting to like, totally not just sitting on the same instrument they have today. Yeah. And I think also another another big thing that I got from that those early years sitting at the back of the orchestra is that, you know, percussionist, they don't play for most of the time. You know, it's like an icing on the cake philosophy, you really are there for like the one or 2% of you know, the moments where the music becomes really exciting, or, you know, that sort of skill of just listening, I think is something that's really carried through to my adult years into the musician that I became because yeah, it's just a lot of listening to other people play. Yeah. And yeah, trying to fulfill that that role. Yeah. Yeah, cuz that's it, isn't it? It's like when when something interesting is happening in the music, whether like you said, it's really big or something really small, like, whether it's like the xylophone or one of those twinkly, chime things that we like, it's really something interesting is happening. I've actually always wanted like, because I'm a musician myself. But I I've always wondered like when I've seen orchestras play, like the person at the back on the, on the percussion, like they're waiting for their turn. Yes, like, a long time. 4550 minutes? Do you sort of, do you have to read the music the whole time to know where you are? Like, do you ever get scared, you're gonna get lost, like key comes up? And you're like, Oh, is it my turn? Like, do you ever get that? Or is it? I mean, I suppose it would, for someone who's just stepped into it, you'd be like panicking. But I guess because you've rehearsed it that many times. But have you ever had that moment? Where you go? Oh, I'm coming up now. But I'm not exactly sure where it is. Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, look, it's I guess, being generally when you have a long period of rest. You know, you get you get to know what what's happening in that gap. So yeah, you usually no and like, that's why when I said I used to go to the library and listen to records, I just used to kind of like rote learn an entire piece of music and just listen to it a lot. Again, I was such a nerd. I had like, I stayed at home when I had braces for about two and a half years and I had no social confidence as a team. So I used to put on I used to play Playstation, but I turned down the game volume and put on like Gershwin and just memorize memorize the whole thing. But yeah, generally, but by the time that I got to playing that sort of stuff, I usually knew where I was. But having said that, I fallen asleep on the stage of the Perth concert hall. And very, very nearly missed an entry. Because I'm have a weird like, borderline it's not narcolepsy. It's not narcolepsy, but when I'm seated I can lose consciousness pretty easily if I'm not doing something so I often like will sleep in a meeting in class in school our sleep chronically is it's horrible. I slept in jury duty. Oh, so yeah, onstage just with a really really long time of rest. It doesn't I was sitting there like in my full concert blacks people in the class who was behind me peering over my shoulder and yeah, basically passed out and very, very nearly missed an entry. Oh, gosh, yeah. Oh my god. That's a nightmare. Yeah, it's not a great feeling. Oh my goodness. So you can play a few different instruments. What else can you play? Ah, so play a little bit of ukulele definitely not wizard at it. And I play a bit of piano. So I'm just self taught on piano and keys as well. I write most of my own songs on the keyboard, that's sort of the median that I prefer. Yeah, I would have loved to have probably been more competent on piano. But it just wasn't I sort of had quite a late start with music. Like I only started playing percussion when I was about 11. So it wasn't something that I ever really did as a kid, a younger child. But yeah, I would I play mostly drumset now, like, you know, after all that talk about like, playing in orchestras and playing percussion, I probably defined myself more now as as a drummer. That was a transition that happened in my 20s. And I sort of started to, yeah, just relate more to the kind of musical styles and, and settings that I could play in just on drum set, which is mostly jazz. So yeah, I would say mostly drummer percussionist, I sing as well, again, I would never, I would never say I'm the singer. I think I sing my own songs. I like seeing a bit of backing vocals. But I've definitely I can't belt would never get up and do a covers gig. It's just not how I sort of identify. So when you say you write, like you're writing in the jazz style, is that the sort of songs you write? Oh, gosh, not necessarily. I'm a bit of a folky at heart. Really? Yeah. So I would say singer songwriter, folk pop is sort of the main style that I write in. But then, since I've been playing more drums, i Something I've always sort of struggled with creatively is like finding the right performance context of what what instrument am I actually going to play. Because I drums is my first instrument, but you can't really accompany yourself as a soloist, if you're playing drums. So the band that I play with now over here, I play drums, and I sing from behind the drum set, it's my compositions, but then they'd been rearranged and like more of a jazz style, and I've got a bass player, a keyboard player and a saxophone player. So yeah, really, it just depends on the context, I suppose. Like, I did a house concert in December. And that was lovely, because I was just playing solo, piano bit of ukulele. And that was like, very intimate. So yeah, that's not something that I do very often. And I felt pretty bad. Because the morning after that house concert, I woke up with COVID and then had given COVID to six people at a house concerts. I felt horrific about it. But yeah, that's I guess it just depends on the context. Really? Yeah. Yeah. A little bit of everything. Yeah. Cool. And you also you talked a bit before about your arts and event project management that you've sort of in the day job? Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that. And what you do with that? Yeah, so I've actually I've sort of recently, I'm in the middle of a bit of a career transition at the moment. So I've done like arts management as my sort of day job yet for, like I said, about 10 years, I got into it, because I think a lot of musicians once you know, I went to uni for music, so I went to work. And like a lot of sort of tertiary educated musicians, if you want to make a living from music, he often ended up doing a lot of teaching. So I came out of uni, and I started doing quite a lot of instrumental teaching. And I just felt like it wasn't really the right fit for me. And I felt quite strongly that if you're going to be in that position of, you know, influencing a child's relationship with music, that you should really care about being there. And it wasn't that I didn't like teaching, I actually really enjoyed it. And I still, I'd still be open to some teaching. But I feel like the framework of a school and the way that instrumental music was taught in schools because it just didn't really resonate with how I wanted to teach and how I felt like kids should be connecting with music. So I was looking for something else to do, I suppose that could make money and be sort of crossed. And yeah, I always liked being really organized. And I liked making things happen. And I yeah, just sort of fell into it. Like I started working with you, the youth orchestra here. And when I'm working with, started working with arts organizations, and then sort of went into festivals and just climbed up from sort of smaller roles to working as a producer and a programmer. A lot of that was when I was in Melbourne, I really focused on that sort of festival work and like working on the national festival circuit. It's yeah, it's a chapter of my life that I would probably consider is coming to a slate and because I'm studying counseling now, so I'm halfway through a Master's in Counseling. And yeah, I guess like just you know, during the pandemic and watching the way that the Australian arts community was placed it festival work is it can really yet chew you up and spit you out. It's long hours. Not necessarily super family friendly. So I was sort of looking for a way to transition out of that work, but Yeah, making that decision, which was only about six months ago, it was a really, really tough choice. Like, it's hard to step away from something that you really do love, and I still love it. Like, you know, it's incredible work, you're working with people that just care so much, and making things happen. It really getting blood out of a stone, like working with almost next to no budget, which is difficult at times. And I think that was also part of the quandary for me, ethically, as someone, you know, in the music community, as well, as a performer, I thought, I'm finding myself in a situation where I'm often having to ask people for to do things for less than I feel they're worth. And that made me feel like, as someone that, you know, sort of has a presence where I often talk about well being and in the arts industry. I don't I just didn't want to feel like I was feeding into that problem, I suppose. People working for less than they're worth, because I do feel like that's part of the issue. Yeah, yeah. So I thought I was pulled back on that, for the time being focus on being a musician again, and focus on studying and working with people in in health plans to work on. Snap crack, with a smoker, Dini accident, good news, to make the gazal disappear. But there's some things you should consider. Rebel. I'm glad you raised that issue about the pandemic and how the arts were perceived and how they were treated. And if any regular listeners will know, they'll hit they've heard this before. I just get so cross and so angry about how the sport kept going, like, yeah, exactly. Players were moving the country, all these bubbles and whatever. Like all everything else that, you know, it was like, that's the only thing of value because that brings in the most money, you know, yeah. And I just, I just kept saying to people, but everyone's sitting at home watching Netflix, you know, who do you think made it made all the stuff, you know, the arts created all of it. And everyone, it was just really made me so mad. And it still makes me mad. And yeah, and then thing to even before that happened, like I've been a performer, just in my, my town here for, you know, I don't know, I'm 44. Now, it's been a long time. And the attitude towards performers is like, they expect you to do stuff for nothing. And this whole thing of Oh, it's great exposure. And it's like, the amount of times I've heard that bullshit. And I've gotten better as, as I've gotten older, just to say no, sorry, if you're not going to pay me this such whatever this amount is, I'm sorry, I can't do it. You know, and it's, it makes me so cross and then so they'll just, they won't change anything, because they'll just go get the next young kid who's just a geek and just take advantage of them. Yeah, that whole thing just makes me really mad. It's so hard. And I mean, I think, for me, my boundaries have always been like, fairly strong, because I had worked on the other side of the fence, and I understood how much budget organizations usually did have to allocate, which is not heaps, but you know, if you are worrying about, you know, quoting 200 bucks versus 500, like, just quote 500, because they can usually afford to pay it like, I guess I had a level of insight from working on the other side of like managing projects for organizations, but I think being a mum becoming a parent is the ultimate like line in the sand of really having to learn, you know, it's not only that the financial value of an opportunity, but like the energy value of an opportunity and like, What's it costing your family and your household for you to be out of the house for six hours. And for them to not be food in the fridge or to not get any of the other stuff done that you need to get done. But yeah, having said that, I'd certainly don't get it right all the time. And it's, I mean, I've only been really, I've only had to be a parent and be in the regular world for less than 12 months because Matilda was born in April of 2020. So you know, most of her life was in the Melbourne lockdowns, which were some of the toughest and we didn't have a regular life at all until we came to WA and then very abruptly had this like pre pandemic existence, which was like difficult to stomach. Yeah, time. Such a huge culture shock from the way that we have been living so yeah, just even like balancing a social life with work and study and gigs. And having a kid that's only I would say, I've only been I've only had a year of experience even though she's two and a half. Yeah, so what took you to Western Australia? Yeah, so I was born here, and I live most of my life here. I love it over here. I've always been a big advocate and like very proud for the arts community. There's some great people over here, even though it is very isolated from the rest of the world and the rest of the country. And then I'd moved. What year was it? 20 End of 2015. I think I met my now husband. And he had been living in the US studying over there, he'd moved back to Australia. And He's based in Sydney, He then moved to Melbourne, we basically met, we went on one day, and we started, we were like, Let's have a long distance relationship. Then I moved up to Darwin. So I left and went up to Darwin for a festival contract. And then after that, I moved to Melbourne and we were there for about six years together. But yeah, it was, it wasn't the plan to move to Perth. When we did I think that was one of those, you know, sort of sliding doors scenarios that so many families experienced during the pandemic, it was, I think, the hard border with WA, I got to a point where it was causing me I would say, real trauma to not be able to come in. We tried five times to get in I had pretty severe postnatal depression after my daughter was born. It was yeah, it was just a horrible feeling, really, to have everyone over here. And I feel a really strong connection to the to the land over here and like to country, and it was just just knowing that it was something that was prohibited and, and a lot of the attitudes that I felt were being displayed towards us as being like, dirty Victorians and like don't come in and like there was this total xenophobia that was Yeah, revolting. Yeah, I've seen I've seen, I would say, I've seen a side of who that I can say. And, yeah, it's been like a bit of a rocky road to rebuilding that relationship with somewhere that I always loved and said was my home before that? Yeah, I think we basically just got to a point where we didn't have any family in Melbourne. So my husband, like I said, was from Canberra, my family's here in Perth. You know, Melbourne at the time, during COVID, it wasn't what it had been. And we were sort of looking at each other saying, you know, how long will it take for it to rebuild to what it was in terms of the the art space? And I think we just wanted some way that we could live with more family support. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was just so wild. It was we made that decision so quickly. Really, when I look back on it, it's, I often reflect that it's kind of remarkable that we made a good decision in in the place that we were mentally like we were, we were in survival mode, big time. Yeah, when we got here, it was just like having a lot of panic attacks. And really, it all just had to come out at some point. Like, it was tough over there that start part. Yeah. But yes, I think it has been the right choice for sure. And my husband as well was in the military band, he's he's a saxophone player. So he was playing in the Air Force Band. When we lived in Melbourne, which sort of that was like the equivalent, I suppose, is like doing a full time nine to five. So it was like, relatively secure, but he didn't have heaps of freedom outside of that job to pursue other creative stuff. So I think now that we're here, we're sort of, we've regained a balance of being both a portion freelance, you know, and a portion teaching or doing other work and for me study, so it feels like a better balance for us to both have that flexibility. And that's something that we're only really able to do because we've got the family support with a young child. Yeah, no, I did. Yeah. It's massive, isn't it? How much difference it makes when you've got that, that support? When you were saying before about this dirty Victorian mentality, where I leave, my town is Matt, Gambia. We're about 20 minutes from the border. To Tory and the amount of abuse that Victorians cops like people would go home like I worked with a there was a because you had to have all these permits to cross the border. For anyone that doesn't know it was pretty full on. So people that there was a lady that I worked with who was Victorian and she said she would cop abuse people would see her number plate in the car pocket coals and we're just abused get out of here and falling over your fires like it was just disgusting. And they're people who are part of our community basically, you know, they work here horrible been their money here, but then they happen to live in a little tiny little, like, basically a rural little thing just over the border. And yeah, it was really horrible. It was horrible. Because, yeah, like you said, this whole new side of people the way people ostracizing people. Totally, it's hard. Yeah, it's hard to think back on it like a lot of I feel like I sort of just blank a lot of it out. Yeah. But yeah, it was I mean, who obviously had the, you know, proudly the world's hardest border. He built the one didn't you know, I can You kind of laugh about it now, but like this, like my heart's like Slack, silently clenching. Still, as we talk about it like, it's still it's totally still hard to think about. Yeah. But you know, having said that, when we got here, I did understand, I suppose, from the side of people that were here, why they were pleased, in a way to have that protection because they were, you know, artists were able to live relatively unencumbered. Like they didn't have to shut down in the same way that you know, certainly that that Melbourne did so. Yeah, I do get it. But yeah, it's just, it's just a whole chapter of life that I'm so glad is over. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Finding my guys when I thought about it, so you're also into the wellness side of things you do yoga? And I guess that's where you counseling sort of coming in to thing? Yeah, yeah. You've been practicing yoga for a long time. Yeah, I have. I want to say I sort of got into it. Like a lot of, you know, yoga, people got into it, just for exercise. That was when I was in my early 20s. And I remember going to classes and that the teacher would spend ages and the breathing and I'd mentally have this dialogue of like, Can you hurry up and get to the fast paced stuff, like get to the poses, I'm here to you know, get a workout on and it's so funny now, because as a teacher, now, I'm a yoga teacher. And, you know, after what 15 years of practicing is, the breathing is my favorite part. And I would have happily spend two hours in one shape like I don't, I'm not in a hurry, the way that I my home practice has completely changed. You know, I love a slow Hathor as opposed to like a fast vinyasa with a million Chaturanga is, but yeah, it was sort of something that I got into it. And I've never done any real movement training, I'd never did dance or anything like that. But I, when I was at uni, I had a bit of like, RSI, and performance injuries, you know, stemming from how many hours of practice I was doing when I was first studying. So I started going to Pilates. And that was helpful to understand, I suppose my physicality and like how my muscles worked. And, you know, being a relatively petite female and playing an instrument that's traditionally made for, you know, German men like classical percussion. It was yeah, it was just helpful to understand how to support my body and what what sort of strength I needed to build in sort of muscles and that sort of thing. Yeah, so I sort of just started and then kept going, and I did something called Yoga for drummers a few years ago, which had sort of like to start getting that going again. So I had a YouTube class and I did a few workshops as well, you know, drummers pit like all musicians, I would say, not hugely on top of looking after their health in on any level. But you know, it's just, it's easy to injure yourself. And I've met so many musicians in their sort of later years, like, you know, 50s, who say, ah, you know, I wrecked my hearing, and I'd never write what earplugs and I've got chronic back pain. And it's like, all of that stuff can actually be really easily prevented. And I think we're starting to get a handle now. You know, sort of globally and in terms of the Australian arts community, I think there is more of a narrative of like prevention is better than cure, you know, trying to give resources to younger people coming into the industry in terms of how do you look after yourself when you're out on the road? How do you eat well, when you're touring? How do you combat this industry that you know, by and large is so unregulated and requires you to work incredibly long hours and usually unwind with, you know, alcohol or drugs? Healthy Choices are the first ones that you reach for on the shelf, I suppose. But for me, I was never somebody that I've always liked to have a good night's sleep. I'm a total Nana, like, even before I love to happy becoming a monk because I was like, finally, I feel like I'm validated in this choice. Like, people aren't gonna hang shit on me for like wanting to go to bed early because I've got to get up early for the child but but I was doing that before I was a mum. Yeah, so yeah, I guess like, you know, just wanting to feel good and and also, you know, with my own mental health, you know, yoga and well being has been a massive tool and like essential, I think for for managing my own mental well being. So yeah, it's just been really helpful. And I think the more people that I've talked to about it now, I think there's more and more museums and artists that are like happy to have those conversations and say like, I really struggle with this or I use this and You know, barefoot running like people are into all sorts of things. Like, it doesn't matter what it is, unless you've got something that works for you. And it's just, it's just trial and error. Yeah, yeah, that whole sort of culture of, you know, sex, drugs and rock and roll soda. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like drinking, you know, their boots and going. On they got Hell yeah. A little bit funny. It's good. I've practiced yoga for a long time, as well. And I find nowadays, I just, I just, I do a lot of yoga. I just have been in the photos and breathing. And yeah, I just don't have the energy for anything else. Like, my whole life is so busy and doing. So when I go to uni, I'm just like, ah, like, just just chill out. Yeah, it's so different. I sold my husband on yoga, the only way I could get into a greater guy was to explain that it's basically lying on the floor with a blanket for 75 minutes. Sounds like you can wear your pjs like, you will be in a flat position. Yeah, it's very chill. Yeah, and that's the other thing too, like now like, because I used to also work in the fitness industry. So it was, it was all about what your looks like, and what the latest fashion was on the chain and all these whatever's. And now I just literally will wear my DAG is trackies. And I don't care, like if I've got an old jumper or whatever, because then I'm not going upside down. So I don't have to worry about you know, things coming up. And it's like, it's totally changed. And yeah, it's, and there's actually this guy now that does classes, just with breathing. All he does is breathing. And so this is amazing that he's actually guy went to school with that it'd be the last face at the world. We have a you know, a revelation and come come to that sort of sort of living. But yeah, it's wonderful. Love it. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I was naming. I think during the early stages of the pandemic, I remember that first lock down that everyone did like the sort of month long one, the very, you know, March or April 2020 whenever it was, and I remember all of my musician, friends, because we everyone had got job keeper. So no one was worried about making ends meet because they were getting paid to stay home or not work. i The overwhelming rhetoric coming out of every single person that I knew was I am so relieved to have this time off like people were just yeah, you know, and obviously, it got worse. And it got more complicated. And people wanted to go to back to work after that. And they couldn't. But yeah, I remember that strike, it was just like this exhale of like, wow, we're just on this hamster wheel 24/7. And just not only being able to not work and not have things in the calendar, but giving yourself the permission to not have to be constantly practicing and hustling and looking for the next thing. I remember thinking like, wow, we're going to learn so much from this. And then if I look at myself and the people around me, I think that we've struggled to implement those lessons on top. Certainly, I feel the same. Yeah. Yeah. Because you know, coming back, and then you've got to make hay while the sun shines, right. Like that's, that's it? Yeah. As soon as we had the opportunity to make money and to rebuild profile, and to get those opportunities, sort of, you know, rolling again, we all sort of had to do that. And that's unfortunately, how this industry works. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think there's been a return to balance really, because I think we're all being sold to that society was ready to open up and everyone, everyone wanted to get out. And everyone wanted to do things. It's like, yeah, oh, we have to be there on the other side of that to meet these people. You know, so there wasn't this. Yeah. Like, I can relate to that completely. I had, we had a we have a thing called the it's like the, it's not as big as the Adelaide Fringe Festival. We call it the Fringe Festival down here. Sorry. I hadn't mean. And I had two shows. And I because I was doing a show with my sister, which I wanted to do. And then I'd said yes to this other one without them thinking, Oh, I actually have to rehearse for this and promote this and organize this. Some reason all I had in my head was the geek just being on stage throwing up and do it. Yeah. And I just said, Oh, my God, what have I done? And so yeah, when they pulled the pin on it, I actually was so relieved. I thought, yeah, God for that, like all the pressure of rehearsal. Yeah. Balancing family life and everything and pushing it the promotion and all that sort of stuff was like, Oh, thank God, that's not happening. But yeah, as time went on, it became like, oh, okay, so yeah, everything's canceled now. And obviously, we weren't locked down. but people weren't doing anything. No one was taking bookings. And I was encouraging groups of people and you couldn't dance. There's no dance. Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you what, but yeah. And I said to myself, I'll just remember this time how good it is. And then you forget, but now I've really pulled back from gigs since then, like I've really, and, and I think, to just looking at, you know, my family life and the balance that we have, like you said about before, we're talking about the monetary reward for doing a gig, you also have to look at, you know, the emotional strain and the physical titling. And I just also got sick of carrying my stuff around, like, just the thought of loading the car just made me do it. Like I complain constantly about being a drummer. I'm like, why? Worst life choice? I wouldn't change it. But yeah, totally. It's, I for me to say yes to things. Usually, there has to be a house kit like that. It has to be a gig I really, really want to do if I have to be wiring my own stuff. Because, you know, maybe our sport when I was in Melbourne, and there are lots of house kits and venues but yeah, I'm just that it has to be the this the path of least resistance. Yes. This is my philosophy for taking on new things. Yeah, I and I do a lot of like, you know, guest lecturing and stuff in unis with music students, and you know, younger people coming into the industry. And I always one thing I always say as a piece of advice is like, if someone asks you to do something, before you say yes, just pause, pause. Because once that yes is out there, you can't retract it. Yeah. And like you've probably said yes, without really understanding the true scope of, of what's within that opportunity, you know, because like, you probably just gonna get a text that says, hey, free on June 16, for a gig and of text. We need we need a little bit more detail here. Like, you know what time? What's the soundcheck? What's the repertoire? How many hours do I need to commit to learning this material? Do I need to bring my own key out? What will I wear? What's the fee? Like? You really you need to I always say that you should reply with a big laundry list of questions. And you know, really, like put them on the back foot like this is a way that everyone in this industry, I think can be trying to educate each other as to what's an acceptable working environment. Because like you said before, there's so many young people, unfortunately, he'll just jump at the chance to do something for exposure. And like I'm not saying that doesn't have a place it does. For a very, very limited time in your early Korea. But it's I think the way that we fall over is like, oh, when is the point when you transition out of that? And who tells you when to transition out of it. Unfortunately, there's no one else standing there being like, Okay, it's time to do this now. You know, we found that coming back to Perth, I think that's why my husband and I were both completely run ragged at the end of what's today's the second of January. So the end of last year, we you know, transition back, we packed up our house in Melbourne on four days notice to be able to get into wa so like when I say it was quick, it was quick. You know, we really just had to hit the ground running, readjust to living here readjust to living in a pre pandemic society drop all of our trauma or somehow like hardly process it. Yeah. And then like, start getting back into the music community and be like, Hey, we're here. We want to work. You know, that was massive transition, like you know, starting again in a new city is just the same I think as as starting your career. When Yeah, yeah. It's like that process of having a duel that networking and stuff again. That's yeah, took a toll for sure. I think it's good to have that first 12 months back in Perth, like under the belt now, even though it was from here. I hadn't been here for a long time. And he hadn't been here at all. So yeah, it's like basically starting afresh, isn't it? Because yeah, yeah, that that was something I had. I'm not sure if you know, Georgia field. She's a Melbourne. Yeah, amazing. Yes, she is. She's amazing. I love Georgia. So she came on the podcast in its first season. And she sort of related the time she had off when she had her children to basically starting her career again, because you're going back into venues, there might be a different, you know, manager and they're like, oh, what we're going to bring, you know, yeah, yeah, it was that was really challenging for here. And yeah, yeah. And I think one of the things that I was really lucky actually, when I had when I became a mother was that it wasn't like I disappeared from society because I was on this sort of mat leave and the rest of the world kept going, the whole world stopped. So it was actually there was like a bit of solidarity in that I was protected from that, I suppose unique isolation in that everyone was isolated. And everyone was sort of going through That existential crisis of like, oh my gosh, should I just start playing easy to become a data analyst? Everyone was going through that at the same time. So that was I would say that was one of the Silver Linings for sure. Some they were the last the sky seven days to slow down it's only when made outside your daughter's two and a half. Yeah. So what are your days look like now? Yeah, so we are she has been going to childcare she started pretty early. I think that was because I wanted I wanted to go back to work at the time in Melbourne, because we were in lockdown. And I, I was just really struggling, you know, with having no life. So we put her in, and she started going three days a week, and she's kept going three days a week, which has been really good. And she now goes to my mums as well like another sort of one or two days a week. So actually were extremely privileged and fortunate is basically what I'm trying to say and that we have close to five days a week of of care for her. Which means in those five days, my husband, I both pretty much just flat out working. I wouldn't say that we get a lot of time to practice, even though we have all of set with all of that care, like I'm studying as well. So my course load is sort of one to two days a week. And I work I work as a peer support worker now. For a business where we support people on NDIS for mental illness. So I work two to two and a half days a week. Then my course load, I would say is at least 20 to 30 hours a week. And then yeah, there's all this like practice that I'm allegedly doing, which I can tell you in full confidence that I just never do. And does she look after my daughter goes to bed at night? It's so funny. I often I'm like there's parents out there that keep going after their kid goes to bed base. I'm not one of them like that. That is the end of my day. Come 738 o'clock at night. I'm a vegetable. I am good at getting up early. Actually he is too because he was yeah, he's we're an early rising family, my daughter included. So I will usually we will set our alarms for about 430 or five and get up an hour before her. And that time. For me that's really, really integral time for sort of self care. And like I'll do my own yoga practice then and just like, yeah, just get a jump on the day, maybe go and make a quick list of what else I need to get done. And yeah, once she's awake, obviously, it's just like a long form negotiation and getting dressed and eating rice bubbles. You can leave the house and yeah, that's sort of the routine really weekends. I usually try to keep like the Saturday morning as a really quiet family time. Because you know, she's got a big week to like, yeah, being out of the house every day. So that's Yeah, even though the weekends is like, you know, it's it's work time, I reckon. Yeah. sandeels and I both probably work in some form or capacity. Seven days a week, we're chipping away at stuff, I would say seven days a week. We're using her nap time and like tag teaming on the weekends for sure. To get stuff done. But yeah, that Saturday morning is like sort of the Sacred Family time of yeah, just being really slow. And in our jammies. Yeah. Because that's the thing like, I don't know, I don't want to judge other people in the way they do things. But I could not be bothered rushing around on the weekends. Like I feel like we rushed around enough during the week and saying being respectful that your kids are rushing around to a time to to reset and readjust and decompress. And that sort of thing, too. It's like, like we've we've managed to avoid Saturday morning sport for nearly 15 years. Oh, wow. That's actually remarkable. Yes, it is. We've been very lucky. But now my youngest is started playing tennis. So it's like tennis. Is that safe anyway? Oh my god. What is this world? Yeah, I know. I mean, look, when I was a kid, I went to school on a Saturday morning for concert band. Oh, yeah. Right. So yeah, I had before school and after school every day. And then my parents would have to drive me on a Saturday morning to band wait in the car for three hours. Yeah, yeah. But I guess things are different then because you could trust your kids to go out and make their own way around a little bit more and like sort of get public transport. Like I don't know what it's like in that Gambia. But I think you know, when I sort of forecast what it's like to be the parent of a teenage girl which I will be I'm like, oh my god, it's things are gonna have to be so it's just so different to the way that my parents were so relaxed and bohemian with us. We were just doing our own thing. Like, you know, lucky, everything worked out fine. But yeah, we were on a pretty long leash. And I don't I, I just don't think you can parent that way. Probably. anymore with the same confidence, unfortunately, I wish to think about it all the time. Yeah. And yeah, the whole social media thing that's been that's a tricky one to navigate to, because we didn't grow up with that ourselves. And how do you sort of had an eye? It's a tricky one. That's that's one that's constant work in China, it's so hard, like, I'm really conscious of being on my phone in front of Matilda. And, you know, the more that she's going to see me on my phone, the more she's going to desire a phone as as cool thing to play with. So yeah, I do. Yeah, I tried to sort of be in the other room, if I have to, like send a quick text or, you know, get back to somebody. But it's also that thing, I suppose if just, if someone needs a response from me, and I'm with my child, they will they'll, they can just wait until, until I'm ready to respond to them. Like, I definitely don't feel that pressure to send someone an instant response. Like I think that there's enough. There's enough conversation and visibility around parenting and working for yourself now that I think we can all support each other to I've had other mums say to me, like, I can't get back to you right now. My kids like doing a poo in a park in the lawn. can relate? I don't even need to write that message like exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. And I think, yeah, in the same way, I feel like businesses because of the social media, and because they're on like, it's 24/7. People feel like they can send people messages anytime day or night. And because sometimes I'm so guilty in the morning, because I'm like, Hello, world. Yes, I feel like people have to be really strict with their boundaries. And then people have to respect that. It's like, oh, we're gonna do so yeah. Great. It's a whole new world, isn't it? We're learning to navigate together. I'm struggling to find a genie. And so you say about your working on the weekend? Do you ever feel like I like to talk to all my moms about this concept of mom guilt? And I hate the term. I wish it didn't exist, but I know it does. What does that mean to you? Or how do you feel about that? Yeah, I mean, I think it certainly exists. And I think it's an almost inescapable phenomenon. Yeah, a couple are earlier last year now. 2022. So I went away to Tasmania for 10 days. And I did a a creative music intensive with the Australian Art orchestra, which, when I applied for, I mean, I started the year last year, like, I was still breastfeeding, like, I breastfed until she was just under two. And I just applied for it and thought, you know, what, if this is meant to happen, I'll get in, they'll give me a place, I'll rediscover what it was like to be a museum again, and like be a creative person, because I'm really deprioritize being a creative in my own right. That whole time, really, I'd say I was living in Melbourne, like I just really focused on festival work, and which is a different type of creative work and problem solving. But it's not writing and playing music. So that was a really, that was a really big thing, you know, going away for such a long time. And I'd waned her by then, but still, I remember right up until I got on the plane. I was like, I'm gonna turn around and go home. This is crazy. Like, who am I to take 10 days away from my child and to put that load on to my partner? And yeah, I did. I did have a lot of guilt for sure. About what, like I said before, what the cost of that was for everyone else. And you know, we're lucky that we have so much family support, so I really just didn't have to worry about her. She could not have cared less that I was gone. Definitely was harder for me. But yeah, I it was that was a big shift for me going on that trip. I'm so glad I did it like it was there was about 25 of us from around Australia and a couple of people came from overseas and we were in the central highlands of Tasmania, super remote, little village. It was just just out group each day. And one of the other producers from the orchestra who was sort of the operations manager He brought his partner and their young child down from Melbourne and their child was very similar age to my daughter. And I had this moment where we were watching a performance, which was a very, very moving performance of some Aboriginal singers and song makers from up in Arnhem Land. And I was sitting there watching and I was watching this mum play with her, bought her little boy, and I just my whole being just imploded into tears, like it was just like this catharsis of really profoundly missing my daughter. But at the same time, I was so grateful for being able to be there. But I think just realizing, really, really realizing in my core for the first time, that my whole identity was completely different. And that that person that I was watching, play with her child was me like, that was myself. And that was, yeah, I just sort of hadn't really realized it and looked at it from the outside. Like that until that moment. But yeah, the guilt that I had to sort of wade through, I think to take that time for myself was immense. Yeah, and yeah, there's always like people, and I feel like people make comments as well. You know, if you're, if you happen to be related to anyone who parented in a different generation, it's very hard to escape. Yeah. Other people's points of view. Absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, it is, it is a thing. And I think that's probably for me why? Because I do, like I said, you know, I've got her almost in five days of care, which is a lot. So the time that I do spend with her, I want to be really, really present. And I think that's for me, I'm able to sort of put them on gear on the back burner, because I know that I am really present with that time. And nothing else is allowed to intrude into the time that we spend together. You know, like when she comes home at the end of the day we play we have a dance party like um, yeah, I feel like I'm a fairly present parent. Maybe I'm just telling myself that to obey the monkey. But yeah, I usually I wouldn't say that. My thoughts elsewhere when I'm with her, I suppose. Yeah. So after you went on that trip, was it then did you feel like I guess you talked about the realizing who your your identity had changed was that then when you came back? Did you then find it difficult to then have those two parts of your identity coexist? Was that a challenge then? Or was that really? Yeah? No, I haven't found it to be a challenge. I think, you know, what it's actually makes it a lot easier is the fact that I'm able to share music with my daughter. And it's such a huge, I can see in her that that's something that she loves. And I guess I'm quite fortunate. Like, I mean, for example, she wouldn't let she never let me Of course play my instrument at home. I'm not allowed to do any practice ever because toddlers are very self centered world to revolve around them. So if your attention is elsewhere that she and she's not like a wallflower about it. She's like a flaming volcano of rage about I'm not paying attention to her. So yeah, I was never able to even even like, you know, anecdotally play the ukulele and sing her song was not allowed. So I was thinking when I was in Tassie, I was like, what, what's the get around for this, because this is really pissing me off. And so I thought she's, she, she wants it to be about her. So I'll write her a song about her. Yeah, write this song about her, which I recently actually recorded. And I'm just gonna go on a release that I'm doing in a few months time. But that was, you know, one. So I was just looking for creative ways to bring her into the that world so that we could share it together because it's not going to look the same as when I wasn't a parent. And I could go into a room and sit down and have uninterrupted time working on songs or playing my instrument. I can only do that when she's not in the house. Or when she's in theory asleep, like it's getting that time is hard, I suppose is what I'm trying to say. So there's other ways that we can engage together in music. Luckily, it's something that she really loves. Like I took her to a gig last night. There's a band that plays here first Sunday of every month at at the fish pub, and it's just so family friendly and such a vibe like I actually the same bands been going for more than 30 years. So I used to go and see this this same band with my parents. It's so wicked like yeah, being able to kind of bring it into the new generation take her and Yeah, lucky for me, she does. She loves to boogie. Like I've set a pretty strong role model that the dance floor is a place for like cutting sick and inhibitions go so yeah, she's got good staying power on the dance floor. And that's that was it's just so much fun to include her in that so I feel fortunate that it's something that she's willing to get on board with because I definitely if that wasn't the case, there's no way I could bring myself to force her to love music like I I couldn't care less if whether or not she you know wants to become a musician. Despite having two musician parents. I just, I suppose I care that She feels a sense of release from listening to music and a sense of joy and happiness and fulfillment on some level, because that's what I get from it. So yeah, trying to share that with her it has, I would say been the number one joy as a parent being able to share that with her it's soundly whether that Rolla cries this guy. I'm sad. And, you know, the worst thing you can do with music is tell someone how it's supposed to be like, there's Yeah, there really. And I think there's so much of that, that I see in, you know, particularly studying music at a tertiary level, like trying to unlearn the learning of someone being like this is this is jazz, this is classical lateral, this stupid labels that we put on ourselves, which, for me, coming back to Perth has actually been really beautiful and liberating, because I'm fine. I'm in the part of my life now where I just don't care anymore about any of that stuff, like I, you know, sort of was identified so strongly with this like box of, you know, being a very classically educated person for so long and only being, you know, playing in orchestras. And that was what I wanted to do. And then I was like, Well, I couldn't possibly play jazz, or I couldn't be a drummer. And then when I went to Melbourne, to live, I remember going to a jam session that one of the first weeks I was there with a friend and he said, Are you going to get out? But I was like, No. And then I just had a moment of realizing like, no one knows me. Like, I could get up right now. And just, for all they know, I'm a badass drama. Like, maybe, maybe I just like start something new, you know? And so I just sort of got up and was like, I'll just gonna, I'm going to say this is the thing that I do. And yeah, overcoming that self stigma, I think is a really a big, it's takes time. I would say that's the best thing about betting in my 30s. And just not caring what people think anymore. It's definitely because it's your it's your everyone's just their own worst enemy. Really? Like that's what takes the longest to overcome. Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's a common theme with people chat, too. It's like 30s and 40s. It's like, literally, you could not give a shit. It's wonderful. When you think back on your younger years, and it's like, Oh, my God, what did I think I What will I think was wrong with me like, yeah. And you think all the things that you could have done, but you didn't do? Because you held yourself back? Yeah. Barney Hill. Yeah. So funny thing is, I can tell I'm super old now. Because I find myself thinking things like youth is wasted on the young. I'm like, I'm an old person. I'm there I've arrived Is there anything else that you want to mention about what it's like being a mom and doing your thing? God just said, I just don't, don't get it right, more than half the time or, or any of the time ever. I think it's just so funny, because, you know, sometimes you have days that you just think I nailed it. And then the next day is just like, the apocalypse. Just like the tire can change. So so quickly, you know, you go from and as I think, this year, I for the past year, maybe we were just really, you know, our immune systems were compromised for being in lockdown. But as the sickness just really got to us, and that was a really difficult thing to contend with. So yeah, we had days where everything was like, perfect. And then the next day, like, you know, my daughter's in emergency on a respirator. They can just take so quickly. No, I don't have anything else. Really, I've got no words of wisdom, just just try to you know, take it one day at a time. I think everyone just needs to be more gentle on themselves. So that's probably and particularly where we are now. I don't want to say post pandemic, because we're still in it. But I think everyone's very tired. Actually, I think there's a deep fatigue and exhaustion for people in the creative industry, that, you know, we're picking up the tab now for the last couple of years, like in terms of, you know, emotionally in the energy and it's taken a toll. And I think, I think just to acknowledge that for ourselves, as well as you know, acknowledge that the space that we're holding for our children and and For other mums as well, like, I'm so lucky, I've got some of my, my best friends who I went to uni with, you know, a million years ago. And we all studied music together, there were all mums over here together at the same time. And it's so funny because even though I finally after years, we all live in the same place, the majority of our contact with each other is just sending each other like frantic voice memos and never seeing each other and just being like, I really want to see you. It's been three and a half months. And you finally see each other and it's just like, you get five minutes of conversation, because your kids are just running around. Doing Yeah, someone's trying to throw themselves in front of a car like, yeah. Oh, yeah. My sister. And I often joke about that. Like, it was nice to catch up. I don't feel like I spoke to you at all. But yeah, totally. Yeah. So I think you know, just try to have that space for each other as well. But also know that you can, you can take up that space, that's something that I'm still working on that very much, just allowing myself to take up the space of feeling tired and feeling overwhelmed sometimes. And I've, I'm also very guilty of putting myself down because I've only got one child. So I often invalidate my own parenting challenges, because there's only one of her, which is really stupid. And I'm trying to work on not doing comparing myself to people that have more children and being like, Oh, they've got it worse than me. Yeah, those are all things. For sure. No, I'm good on you. But thank you so much for sharing your time with me today. It's been lovely chatting to you. So lovely. And thanks for just like running the podcast. It's so awesome. Oh, I just love it. I just love talking to people. And I don't know, I just, it's just a lot of fun. I don't know. It's just a fun thing. Yeah. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom