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Sarah Broekensha Australian actor and producer S1 Ep18 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Sarah Brokensha is an actor and producer from Eight Mile Creek, South Australia, and a mother of 2 boys. Acting since the age of 23, Sarah has performed numerous times with Patch Theatre Company , including an off-Broadway season in New York City. She performed in Mutzenball which was awarded the 2008 Green Room Theatre Award for Best Cabaret Ensemble, Other shows include Ruby Bruise , Emily Loves to Bounce , Me and My Shadow, Yo Diddle Diddle and The Girl Who Cried Wolf. Her film and television credits include Wanted Season 3 , Wolf Creek 2 and Rabbit (feature film). Sarah created her own production company, Control Party Theatre , and received rave reviews for her one woman show "The World is Looking for You" in August 2021. In addition to all this she runs a farm with her husband Liam, which incorporates a free range egg farm The Splendid Egg We discuss how covid has levelled the playing field in the theatre industry, how important support for expectant and new mums is in the industry in keeping your sense of identity, and building resilience in her children, and herself. Connect with Sarah here More info about The World is Looking For You Connect with the podcast here Audio of the promo video for The World is Looking for You that appears in the intro, is used with permission Music used with permission in this episode is from Alison Newman and Alemjo Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... oday on the podcast, I would like to welcome Sarah Brokenshire. Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. It's great. So you are an actor, which is exciting. I haven't had an actor on my show yet. So, welcome. Thank you. I feel honored to be the first. Yeah. So tell us about yourself how you got into being an actor and share anything else that you'd like to around that? Yeah, okay. Well, I think I was I loved acting or the drama at school, high school, I guess. And then I didn't quite have the confidence, I don't think to audition for drama schools at that stage when I was 17. So I kind of put that aside and I went traveling, went skiing, I was kind of snow ski instructor actually, and then did like a business degree and did all sorts of other things. But really, ultimately, it got to a point where all I was thinking about was having a go having a crack at acting and, and so finally, when I was, it was it was when I was about 2024 2423 24, I finally plucked up the courage and started auditioning for drama school. So then I went to drama school. In had the best three years, I've had the best time and then as a mature age students, so everyone else was kind of 1718 and I was very old, 24 year old. I felt very old looking back now. That um, and then yeah, and then I left drama school. I finished there in 2004 and just been kind of slowly chipping away doing just getting gigs where I can and not experiencer independent theater and working with a lot of the professional theatre companies in Adelaide mainly spent a couple of years in Melbourne and then made the odd decision to move regionally. Which was really weird way has been the best thing. All my career. It's a very interesting journey for me, but to be leaving early. Yeah, I was gonna ask you that. And you've brought it up. So I'll ask you now have you said it's really good for your career of being in my Gambia which is 500 kilometers away from Adelaide 500. Club. Know, but how, how is that so good? I think initially, it was actually was quite hard. But it made me become a bit more resourceful made me think about what I kind of work I wanted to make I wanted to be a part of. And when things were quite quiet, I kind of went alright, well, maybe. How can I make the work come to me? How can I get I'd made some really good I spent a good 10 years in Adelaide making a really great network of creatives and friends that were doing amazing things. And then I looked for avenues where I couldn't bring them to me or yeah, how can I open up an opportunity that maybe I'm not, you know, outside of the box, and that's kind of where that started. And and I mean, it's not it doesn't all happen really quickly. That's happened but I've been here for 11 years. And now I'm starting to get quite busy but it's taken, you know, taken it's a slow burn definitely. That's interesting, too. I guess that would also be It's really beneficial for us as audiences in regional areas to be able to maybe get shows that we wouldn't get here because the main actor is from here. Would that be fair to say? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And one or the other. And also, when I got invited kind of created down to me, I've also tried to have opportunities where I get them out into the community. So we, and it's also been a really good way for me to an inroad into my community in a way as well, it's been a really good way for me to kind of understand where I live and get to know the people that surround me. But, yeah, definitely, like, I think the more Yeah, I think more professional artists seem to be kind of leaving the cities. And I think that definitely draws those kind of different shows and works and performances, whatever, out of the city. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I was gonna ask you to share with us some of the shows that you've been in, I know that I had a ticket to come and see you in the world is looking for you. And then my son broke his arm that night, so I couldn't. Stressful, I've actually very disappointed because I've had wonderful, wonderful feedback about that show. So I don't know how we're ever gonna get to see Do they ever? Do they record them? Like, yeah, it often doesn't translate quite as well. But we did get a really beautiful, archival recording in Adelaide, actually, an amazing filmmaker kind of came in and took a few different, got a few different cameras in there. But I think hopefully, we'll get to do it again, down here, I only got to do it three times and to very small audiences, which was intentional, to keep it very intimate. But I think I would like it just was over so quickly, in such a, I guess this work was very personal, and had a lot of my personal story in it. And then to be able to do it to my local community was was so humbling and profound for me, that I just selfishly want to have that experience again. It was just, it was really very grateful to have had that moment in time. Yeah. No, I want you to do it again. So I can say it. Yeah. So front row ticket. Yeah, absolutely. So you said that you'd had some of your own personal story. So how did that come about? Were you involved in actually like brushing it? Or how how did that come about? Um, I went long story is that when I first moved back here, I was definitely a bit of a loss of what to do and thought I had isolated myself from my creative community I kind of initially I thought I possibly made a mistake in terms of career not not in terms of family because I'd moved back to be closer to family to for limb, my husband and I would start a family together. But I did feel quite isolated from Adelaide and in Melbourne and thought maybe I'd made a mistake, but in that regard, but then I just kept getting these little invitations from the regional funding body country out to say and they kind of one of them kind of heard that I had moved from Adelaide to or from and to Matt Gandy. And so he just kept sending me these little invitations to meet up with someone just to talk about this or come to Adelaide for the fringe and meet some other regional artists and so slowly, I kind of, and then I kind of got the courage, I guess, which is sounds a bit strange, but the courage to have an idea that in my mind that I kind of put out there usually I just perform other people's ideas or, and so I applied for a grant to develop a show with a director, friend of mine, Daisy Brown, she's this incredible director that we've worked together on a few shows in Adelaide. And so we applied for funding to commission, an amazing writer Finnegan Cucamonga to come and work with us. So I didn't write the show. Thank goodness. I am. So this is part of that, that process of who are the people that I'd like to sit in a room with and work with. And it was Daisy and Finn, and, and Mario, who Daisy, Mario, and I have a company to get a fairly company together. And we all want to work with those people. And I had just had an idea, which was a, an article that I'd found in a, based on an article I'd found on Facebook essentially used before. And so I got the got the funding. And I think you've got to come down here to Adelaide, Gambia, and we sat in a room for a week, and talking and talking talk. And then we did that, again, we probably had a four week rehearsal process over a year. And then we just started from there. And we it was a four year process. play that. Yeah. It was a big one. And it was meant to happen in last year, but it got postponed because COVID But there was almost a blessing. I think that yeah, and so and, and why I wasn't really sure what it was going to be none of us were when we started talking. And then it's just kind of evolved over evolved over four years and became this one woman show which wasn't my intention, either, because that's terrifying. It ended up being Yeah, this this. Yeah, this is theta work that we're very proud of. Oh, yeah. That's, that's no, I really have to say it was on stage with the composer he, he played live. And then we had this amazing vocalist as well. So she was part of the EU, I think to what maybe I can like start a petition to get it back. So other things that you've done? I know, with my connection with childcare, you've done some work with the patch theatre group, they do shows for children. Yeah, tell us the other things that you've done over? Yeah. Yeah, I've done a lot of work with patch theatre, and I actually do a lot of work with them over my presidency. Yeah, so that kind of saved me a little bit, in many ways. Like, it kept me kind of, in the, in the, with my finger, it felt like my finger was still on a pulse of some description. Because I'm, you know, I mean, I'm sure you understand as well, when you when you have start having kids. It's just, it's hard to kind of, you know, still figure out who you are amongst the midst of motherhood and beautiful mess in some in some respects, I guess. But you do. It's hard to kind of, you know, there's a life that was and then you as another kind of just trying to figure it out. And somehow I got to kind of keep a little bit of my artistic identity alive at at that stage, which I think was very crucial to my feeling. Like, I could still do it. I was still an artist still. Yeah. And so I kept my head above water a little bit. So patch I did, I got a pet like 10, or maybe even more than 10 years ago, now, I was lucky enough to start working on two different pet shows. They'll call them. Emily loves to bounce, and me and my shadow, which is two beautiful, beautiful shows that just happened to have these amazing tours and I got to tour with them every you know, once or twice a year. You know, back when we could go overseas and got to go to you know, travel to New York and perform in New York with a little two year old in tow and Oh, yeah. And also while I was pregnant, they kind of would shift rehearsals so that, you know, I could still do rehearsals before my due date and because you're gonna have some times when, when you're acting you feel when you get job. You feel like what I did, I felt like when I found out I was pregnant. I felt like if I told them, you know, that might be the end of that gig, no other jobs in sight. And yeah, so there's all this. Yeah, but something you know, both times when I was pregnant I had patched up and they kind of would go out. No worries, let's just move this here and there. So you can still be, we still want you to be part of the soul and how they will kind of crash into my ceiling. valued, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it's a bit more than just jobs. I guess. Now that looking back on that. acting jobs hilarious. And then, yeah, so. And then I've just done a few little tiny TV roles and things like that, where, where I've been able to, and they've been amazing, and, and just basically, I'll take any job I can get. Like, I'll do whatever, I'll do anything. Identity? Yeah, so you mentioned there, how crucial and really valuable that wasn't being able to keep doing what you love doing, rather than having to stop while you're pregnant? What about when, when you first had your first child? Did you have a break at all, then? Or were you able to just sort of keep, keep going? I guess, I kept going by the day, the shows are fairly, you know, sporadic. So there was long periods of time where there wasn't much happening, or there were periods of time where I wasn't sure if there was anything in the pipeline, you know, and then something would come up, and it'd be okay. And we'd kind of boy, me, I guess for a bit and then. So it's that old kind of, you know, it's never, you never know, really what's happening and what's coming up next. And, you know, so that job insecurity that comes with being an actor or creative, probably. But, um, so it was definitely a struggle. And then I guess, you know, for me, I have to, usually for the most part, but go to Adelaide, usually to work. So there's that added kind of stress of added stress of having to figure out what to do. Whether to, yeah, how to make that work. Because I will often desperately feel like I wanted to do that job. You know, because you hardly know when you're going to get the next opportunity or, or, yeah, but also trying to look after little tiny babies or, like, some of the patch touring I did, I did these big tourism. So Liam would come with me for a few weeks, and then taking with his mum. And so my mother in law would come and tour with me for a couple of weeks, and then my mom and so it always involved having a very good support network around me. And that was kind of the part of the reason for coming home as well was because I knew that there would be that support network is when my mum lives here. My sister and her. Her husband, they moved back here about six months before I did and we're very close. So yeah, having having that support has been crucial. Absolutely. I wouldn't have been Yeah. Tell me about your children is nearly 10 Finnegan and Fergus, he is seven, seven coming up seven and a half, two and a half years apart. Of course I am very fond of them. And I think they're very amazing. And I printed in funny and, and yeah, I've luckily just been able to either bring them along on tour or have them in rehearsal rooms when required or, you know, and they, they've loved kind of growing up in that, that little world. And I'm working on a children's show just finished a little bit of a rehearsal now and we're doing a bit more rehearsal in December and we need a test audience. That six kids so they're going to come in and be our test audience. I feel very smug about that. Cool huh. So they work just as well. Do they like to have a bit of a go? Yeah, I don't know. I think it seems like to me oldest might have a guy but yeah, I don't know. This guy doesn't know, folks too keen to get up in front of people. But I think maybe maybe seen he's got a bit more of that. Or not that a lot of actors are kind of overt an extrovert. Actually, most of us aren't think but yes. Jimmy's got a bit of a flair, I think. Have you come across any other mums doing sort of similar thing to you that are able to keep working with the little ones or while they're pregnant? Um, yeah, I think it's becoming more and more. I don't know, like, commonplace. I think that your work around pregnancies and small children and it's kind of crucial now I think for theatre companies to be inclusive of mothers of tiny babies. So make those rehearsal rooms comfortable and safe for new mothers and things that I think it's becoming just normal now. Which is great. I don't know. I don't know. I know a lot of friends in Adelaide that have babies that working in Adelaide. I don't know, so many regional artists, personally that don't have to leave home for you know, long stretches, which I've done a little bit of that which has been very challenging. Like I really appreciated the work and the experiences, but yeah, very, very challenging. For me and for Lee and my husband, as well. And. You also run a chicken not a chicken farm. It's an egg egg farm. Yeah. Well, I guess it's a we're trying to make it a regenerative farm basically, and so that the chickens are part of that ethos or that philosophy. So they we've only got a couple of caravans, I guess, they called but then sheds, mobile sheds, and we pull it around the paddocks. And chickens just cruise around wherever they want. And kind of basically fertilizing and sanitizing the soil in hopes that we don't have to spray and do all those kinds of things. And we have those beautiful Miranda dog Guardian dogs that look after them out in the paddock. So, you know, there's no fences or anything that I wander around and do it like that. Um, so yeah, that's an interesting been an amazing kind of little add on to the farm. So my, my family, I grew up on this farm that I'm living on now. And my husband is now running it, which is not something that we both really thought we'd be doing, like 15 years ago. We love it. And yeah, so the chickens, we've got this brand called the splendid age, and we sell these beautiful, I think it'd be passion free range eggs. And yeah, just as part of a byproduct of trying to create more diversity on the farm. So traditional farmers will like run other we run we run low prime land, we sell walls well across from that and then we have just some cattle from other neighboring kind of properties. So we look after cattle for other farms and you know trying to got a bit of a rotation of a few different animals through their property. Yeah. And I have read online that they the the chickens have so much space it's even beyond like the traditional what they classes it's like even more yeah just get back in. There's no other offenses to keep they're like Kelvin shooting but they can just walk through the under those or they can go wherever they like essentially, right at the beginning we have these kind of movable fences so we can teach them where to lay and where to sleep and things like that. But you in Yeah, and I can just walk anywhere they're like, I mean, obviously, they walk too far and then come back then it's it's on them if they caught my socks. Yeah, man, some of them just won't walk for case but um, yeah, no, no, no, we'll just kind of wander back to the caravans to roost at night. Yeah, I can go wherever you're like, really? Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, it's lovely. So you came to be easy, really? Like with a bit of a weird mix? Ah, okay. People like oh, look, that's the egg lady. I won't say. I won't say you're the egg lady. Egg lady. But it is a weird combination of kind of acting. And I quite like wearing a few different hats as long as I can have something creative in the pipeline, or yeah, just be able to kind of continue auditioning and things like that. Then I I really enjoy having such different hats. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Have gone in COVID. Obviously, you've been able to put on you your big show. But like, you talked about auditioning in that? Or have you had to do lots of stuff online? Or has it sort of worked? Yeah, in a way, it's kind of leveled the playing field a little bit for people that don't live in the city. Because I mean, it was kind of hanging that way in the industry was starting to do a lot more self taping, for auditions and things like that. So it was kind of heading in that direction anyway, when rather than walking into a impersonal audition, you'd send in a tape and then go through all the tapes, and then pick the field that they want, and then get those people to come in. And now that's kind of the norm. And obviously, preferred method of auditioning is actually just sending you the tape. And because it's harder to get, you can't fly from Melbourne to Sydney, just, you know, for the day to do an audition. So it's, yeah, it kind of leveled the playing field a bit. And I kind of that isolation weirdly, for me, was minimized, I guess, or Yeah, so I felt more connected. People. I mean, and you know, it would go crazy. Like, people were zooming like crazy in the beginning, but I started connecting with all sorts of people. And creatives that were doing interesting things through zoom, and because everyone was like, well, right, well, how can we still connect with that? Yeah, that Zoom each other or? Yeah, can you send in a tape for this? And it's for me, it kind of was good in many ways. Cuz you probably you probably wonder I've got the chance to meet these people have opportunities if if it wasn't there, that like you said, it's got to tell its upside. Yeah, it definitely has its upside because I have been doing tapes for a little while. Now. I also feel quite comfortable doing that, but almost prefer going into a live or digital real audition because I get all not great. auditioning. I get nervous and you know, when you start talking in your head, like just stop talking. And you just keep going or go back. So I've had to like I have so much more control over a self tape audition, so I don't know concept of mum guilt. What how do you feel about that? Yeah, I've been thinking about that a bit. Navigating motherhood is, is tricky, that I definitely felt a lot of guilt I guess, but about starting going back to work about leaving the kids about leaving my family to go and do a theater job or, and whether it was worth it. And I think, mum got it, I feel like it implies that you've done something wrong, do like numb guilt. And I don't think that's correct. So I wonder if are thinking about it today, because I often feel guilt about not doing this because I'm doing this so you know, I'm doing an acting job. So I can't put as much energy into the farm and so it puts more pressure on them or so I'm feeling guilty all over the place. And, and that's the kind of I feel like I'm being that conditioning thing. So it's not just mom guilt, I don't think I just always felt a bit kind of like I should be in all places all the time. But I think I think I when you when I was going away a lot, I struggled with feeling guilty, feeling, I guess, stressed and stretched and, and then and just not being around. And Liam is just amazing. And being so supportive, he would say well, you know, is that I think he kind of stress to me that it's important that the boys see that you're doing what you love, I guess. And that maybe it's just about finding the right compromises. So your husband, Liam, he must be very supportive, to be encouraging you to keep keep doing what you love doing. And all my whole family right from the beginning. And I think that lame would always say look, because leading up to going away for a show, or just a couple of weeks before I just feel wretched and I feel sad, and I'd feel super guilty about leaving and that he would just remind me that it's a beautiful time for him and the boys to to have a different kind of relationship. Often leaves mum would come over with her partner while I was away to help. And then so then she'd have this different relationship with Liam and the boys than she would if I was here, which I thought was really a lovely thing to say and a lovely thing for me to be reminded of that. She Yeah, she gets to have this different relationship with with the boys while while I'm away. And that she loves that time. She because she doesn't get to see them often. She was encountering, like regional Victoria eight hours away. So and then they get to see me during my love, I guess, or they get to see me going to do that. I mean, they don't necessarily see the shows each time but they get to understand that I'm making a sacrifice to do the things that I love or making. And, and that yeah, it's just about trying to find the right kind of compromise because I think you need your own thing as a as a human and as a as a mum as a parent, but definitely as a mom you need your own whatever that is like even if it doesn't have to be work but and so to have your own thing you do need to compromise and sacrifice a little bit. That kind of relationship with your children or your husband and it's about finding the right compromise or the right balance I guess of sure feeling a bit guilty but also feeling that you Are you doing the right thing for you? I guess? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think that's an that's it's always a struggle, it's never the same, it's time, it's always a different lead up to me leaving, it only happens a couple of times a year. If I have a good deal, it's, it's a couple of times a year. And the lead up is different every year as the kids get older to. Like, Finn, especially he really misses. Or he gets away, he kind of worked himself off as a lead up to me going away, but then he's finally gone. But so that anxiety, those anxieties are a bit different now for the boys leading up to because they can communicate how they're feeling. And they don't want me to go and this and that, and the other. But I guess that opens up opportunities to talk about why I'm doing what I'm doing. And that it is, although it is hard, it means I get to kind of do the thing that I love, but they also get to hang out with Liam in a different way. That's a really great way of looking at it too. It's stringer strengthening other relationships in your family unit, as well. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and lame. Duck put obviously, a lot of pressure on him, but and he really appreciates that kind of bond he gets with the kids that different when I'm around. This is the kind of mommy's boys a bit at the moment. And so on kind of the, you know, but when I'm out of the picture for a bit, he becomes the kind of parent I guess. Yeah, so how do you step into those different roles? And I hope it's building resilience as well, a little bit maybe what's building resilience for me? I miss them so much. And, and it's, it's tapping away, because I'm also constantly going, is this worth it? Am I doing the right thing? It's only a theater show? Should I be home? Like all of that still going on? Even if I am having an amazing kind of time, you know, being in the rehearsal room, or something like that? And then do you tell yourself that it is worth it? Like, do you do it yourself? Then? Say yes, yeah. Yes, exactly. And that I am reminded, and my mom actually said, the last time because Oh, my God, I'm feeling really anxious about not being around. And it's just like, well, you know, if you just have to, you know, kind of weigh up. And if it's too much, like, if it's, if that's outweighing if you're, if you're miserable, and doing in a way during the show, then there's no point to doing that. So, but if you're, if you're, if you're happy, then and, yeah, then it's kind of it's worth it. I'm not like damaging my children. I just think it's wonderful though, for for boys, in particular, to say that a mother's a mother can be any, anything that they want to be to, like, the mother is the traditional role that they might sit might have seen, maybe the grandparents in a different way. But then mothers of today can can do whatever they want. And I think that's awesome for boys to say that that, you know, as they grow up their expectation of what, you know, their relationships might look like is, you know, endless. I suppose its boundless. It hasn't got these constraints that the previous generations would have had, I guess. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I guess when when I'm at home, I do we do tend to kind of fall into Liam's kind of out doing the labor on the farm, although I do come out and help and, and I tend to be them on that kind of nurturing and doing like book work and, and taking the score and doing those kind of almost, you know, those stereotypes, the stereotypical kind of role that we've kind of fall into which I don't sometimes I feel funny about that. I yeah, I agree with you that I think it's great for them to kind of see me Yeah. forging a bit of a path that's a bit tricky, as well, I guess. Yeah, it's just it's tricky and hard and as a performer, I think and an actor it's definitely a build resilience. Yeah. I get out pretty quickly, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Like, you would have to have pretty thick skin I suppose to, you've always putting yourself up for stuff. And you're at the whim of someone else to tell you whether you're good enough because or not, whether you're right for the role or not, but I don't think there'll be many people. Exactly, yeah, it's definitely pretty tricky. And I think that's part of the reason for starting to be a bit more rigorous in creating my own work is so that you can have some kind of control over what you're doing. And, and so you can still get your voice out there and your stories out there. And, and, and, you know, it's hard, like, I'm sure you probably feel the same when you like, write a song or or write an album, and then you've kind of put put your heart and soul into it. And then you just have to go, Matt, ego, what do you think? Why do you not I mean, like, Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's very, you're so very, very vulnerable situation to put yourself in and, and, yeah, sometimes when standing out, outside, just recently are standing out the front of the foyer after doing the show. And I'm just like, God, this is, I feel like I basically just kind of, you know, cut over my chest poured out my heart. And I just smoked it down in front of everyone for you to skate. You know, I was a bit late for a bit but like, God, it is. Yeah, it's thank God, people do it now. Like when you hear a piece of music that just like rips your heart out, or you see like, for me watching a theater show that can either punches you in the gut for the best. I love it so much. And so, you know, thank God, artists and people are creative, because for me, that's like, that's the stuff of life. But I'm not for everybody, I guess. But yeah, it does take a bit of Yeah, resilience and determination. And it's not really a choice is that you're just Oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's very true. Yeah. Yeah, it's just you just make you just have to. Yes, you are compelled to do it. Yeah, yep. Yep. Yeah, I think it's great. I have so much admiration for all of us and relishing myself. And yeah, I think it's just, Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think I think that's why it's so hard for moms, you create, because of this, the sheer determination that you're going to do what you want to do, you're going to put out what you want to share, you're going to create what you want to create. But then you go, Oh, hang on a minute. There's these other people here now that I have to consider. And it's like trying to reconcile the two. Yeah, it's just, absolutely. I mean, I don't know how you feel when you're kind of writing songs or, but I know that when I'm rehearsing or performing a show, especially leading up to opening night, or things like that, I find it very hard to be present. Because I'm always thinking about just feeling nervous, really, or you kind of consumed about the characters I'm exploring. And so it's a tricky balance to be kind of be present. With the kids walking something at the same time, but also, yeah. Enjoy the privilege. Yeah, it's, it's, that's a, it's a really hard one. There's the episode that came out today with Rachel, she said that she always tried to keep the two things really separate the, the parenting, and her art practice. And I think it's different. Because when you're actually, you know, you physically holding a paintbrush or physically holding a pen, you can go to this space and do it. But you're in this, here. And so then she she found that if she could get some time doing her art, then she could go right, that's done. Now I can go see my children, which works great, you know, for that sort of medium. But I find like, your mind can be really challenging because you've always got stuff going around in your head. Like, yeah, always there. And how do you switch that off? Well, your children have come over and said, Hey, what should we do this and you're going when I'm watching but my brains back here thinking about what I was really challenging just to but when I come in here to actually record something, that's the easy bit because I can go right I'm shutting the door. Give me 10 minutes to record. Yeah, it's all the other step the other times the hard, you know, yeah. And yeah, it's rattling around in here. And you just, you just want to grab, like, things will come to you in a second and you're like, Oh, hang on, hang on. I have to write this down. Yeah. Because the truth is Do you know? Oh, I don't know. It's just like, ah, yeah, heads looks like splitting. Yeah, I'd be I find it tricky as well. And because I, I spent a lot of time when I'm rehearsing and performing actually away from the family. So that's easier for that in that regard for to be able to kind of just concentrate on, on the show that I'm doing. Whereas I find now that I'm doing a bit more work here and in my Gambia at home, and it's actually really tricky. When you when you work go to work during the day, and then you have to come home and and come try and switch it off. So that's a real struggle for me, because I've kind of had an realize it was a bit of a luxury to be able to just get in that bubble, and, and kind of create and then not have to come home and parent that yeah, the really tricky part is trying to combine the two and, you know, I have huge admiration for, you know, a lot of my working actor friends in Adelaide that have to do that all the time, because that's tricky. Yeah. Just these endless challenges that we're faced with. Yeah, something comes up. Show that you've got coming up that you're working on the children show, how when's that sort of looking like it will have its opening and that sort of stuff? Yeah, so that's a company called the paper boats and theatre theater, Michael de Brown, who used to work at patch theater, so that when I was doing my shadow, and he was the artistic director there, so we've had a long kind of working relationship. He is developing a show with another creative down here called Kevin Clark. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So dancer musician, I feel like it's the triple threat. And he, so I'm working on a little show called Seven little wonders that will be performed, I think, as part of the Fringe Festival Matt gave me that. March. Yeah. So we're kind of slowly kind of developing. It involves like six little six kids on stage the whole time. So I've never it'll be an interesting and interesting experience, I think and so that's why we're starting we're gonna get a few test audiences in early but hopefully the the beautiful kind of, you know, little show for for kind of four to eight year olds. Oh, wonderful. That sounds awesome. Yeah, that sounds Yeah, gag, gag just he plays all these different instruments. And I just kind of stand there and say words every now and again. But the fairy wouldn't have the show without your words. Thank you if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman H dwellest Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Alex Sinickas Australian engineer + designer S2 Ep76 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Alex Sinickas, an engineer and designer from Bright, Victoria, and a mum of 1. Alex grew up playing outdoors with her older brother, re-creating the achievements of her childhood heroes Indiana Jones, MacGyver and James Bond. She spent a lot of time digging up things and blowing things up, This sparked her curiosity of how to build things and how things worked. When it came time to go to Uni Alex studied engineering and also economics, She got into design a bit later, whilst working in structural engineering with architects, she wanted to be able to help people to be able to achieve their visions. 4 years ago Alex was breastfeeding her daughter and found herself on the end of a breast pump and found it to be quite a shocking and painful experience, needing to pump extensively for her daughter who refused the breast. This got Alex thinking about how she could make this experience more comfortable. She ordered some silicone and a robotics kit and set about creating 3D printouts of silicone cushions, which lead to Alex collaborating with a roboticist and a prototype coach, and her husband's insight as a GP also proved useful. They produced prototypes and each time Alex had to pump she would try them out, until they found the perfect fit. Thus began MilkDrop Pumps , a soft silicone pad that stretches over most brands of existing pumps. They launched in Australia in April 2021 and in the US in late 2022. Alex - MilkDrop Pumps Podcast - instagram / website What is STEM? ***This episode contains discussions around pregnancy loss, post natal depression and an IUGR pregnancy.*** If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler. How mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is a pleasure to have you. This Week on the podcast. My guest is Alex cynic s. Alex is an engineer and a designer from bright in Victoria, and she's a mom of one. Alex grew up playing outdoors with her older brother, recreating the achievements of her childhood heroes, including Indiana Jones, MacGyver and James Bond, she spent a lot of time digging up things and blowing things up. This sparked her curiosity of how to build things and how things worked. When it came time to go to uni, Alex studied engineering and also economics. She got into design a bit later, whilst working in structural engineering with architects. She wanted to be able to help people to be able to achieve four years ago, Alex was breastfeeding her daughter and found herself on the end of a breast pump and found it to be quite shocking and painful experience needing to pump extensively for her daughter who refuse the breast. This got Alex thinking about how she could make this experience more comfortable, not just for herself. But for other mothers. She ordered some silicone and a robotics kit and set about creating 3d printouts of silicone cushions, which led Alex to collaborate with roboticists and a prototype coach and her husband's insight as a GP also proved useful. They produce prototypes, and each time Alex had to pump she would try them out until they found the perfect feet. Thus began milkdrop pumps, a soft silicone pad that stretches over many brands of existing pumps. They launched in Australia in 2021, and in the US in late 2022. This episode contains discussions around pregnancy loss, postnatal depression, and an IUGR pregnancy. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a list of great international resources, which can be found on my podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. And while you're there, please take a minute to subscribe to my new weekly email, which I'm sending out at the beginning of each week. I'm a little bit conscious that we don't actually own all the content that we post on social media. And in light of Mr. Elon Musk's recent takeover of Twitter and the changes he's made. I'm even more aware than ever that things could disappear in the blink of an eye. So I'd love to be able to keep in touch with you before that disappears. So jump on and subscribe to my weekly newsletter. The music you'll hear today, as usual is from my ambient music trio called LM Joe. We are based in Australia and it's myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoy today's chat. Welcome, Alex. It's a real pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so you're based in your in Australia. Whereabouts are you in Australia? Yeah, I live in Brighton, which is about three and a half hours northwest of Melbourne. Yeah, I know. Right? Yeah. A lot of people when you say that, they say, Oh, I um, I went on family holidays there when I was a kid or something like that. Yeah, that's probably doesn't change that much. It's probably a little bit more popular now. And it's, you know, in winter, it's all about skiing. And in summer, it's all about mountain biking and road riding. And I remember the because I'm one of those people that not from family holidays. And the autumns are beautiful, which is stunning. Yeah, well, I'm I'm married to a Canadian and he reckons that it's the closest he can get to to Canada in Australia. So I feel like that's a nice, it's a nice compromise. We get to live here but you're Similar to Canada. Yeah, it's beautiful. It really is. And yeah, about three hours from Melbourne. Yeah, yeah. I have some great memories of that part of the world. Yes. Totally Beautiful. Very lucky. Oh, that's awesome. So you're an engineer and a designer. Can you share with us how you got into that field? I think I was just following my brother, actually, I might have a brother who's two years older than me. And through school. And growing up, he, he sort of involved me in all of his activities, really. So it was kind of just trotting around following him. And so our sort of childhood heroes were, you know, Indiana Jones and MacGyver, James Bond for that kind of stuff. So we spent a lot of time outside, digging up things and blowing things up, which is probably okay, these days. And so I just sort of learned about how to build things and curiosity about how things work from him, and probably my parents. And then I was always fairly good at maths. And so when it came time to go to, I knew I always wanted to go to uni, but not I didn't really know what I wanted to study, I thought, oh, maybe you know, medicine that's like what you do if that's what you're good at maths, which is a really strange concept, but that's kind of where it was at the time. But it just didn't really kind of make sense. And so I, yeah, I ended up doing engineering. And I did dumb economics as well, as my dad had said, like, oh, you know, I never really understood how money works and how businesses work. And I wish I'd known that. And maybe you might like that, too. So I was pretty, like, aimless. Although I was academically fairly, you know, good. But I really had no like idea about what I wanted to do. So that's how I ended up in engineering. And then, in terms of design, I got into that a bit later, one of the things you learned you do when you're engineering is you work in really big teams full of lots of different people. And I was working in structural engineering. And you end up working with architects quite a lot. And I loved what they did. Yeah, right. Grandfather was an architect. And I'd always loved design. And I'm probably not very good at it. But I know what looks good. I like being able to help people achieve that. And so I was always drawn to architecture and just, like, beautiful design, good design. Yeah. Right. So what sort of things had you been doing? Like you said, structural? Engineering, is that, like building bridges? And yeah, anything above the ground. So there's like a thing, you know, with engineering, there's lots of different kinds. My choice was, you know, electrical, chemical, environmental, and civil and so like, electrical seem too hard, I didn't really understand electricity, can't see it, you know, chemical like, I wasn't really that into chemistry, again, too hard to understand, can't see it civil, well, that's everything you can see. It's everything on the ground. So roads, rail, you know, it's water management, and then structural, which is things you can see above the ground. So buildings, bridges, anything like that. And so that kind of made the most sense to me, because I could see it, and I could understand how I, you know, I could make that. And so that's kind of where I ended up. And, yeah, luckily, I ended up working with this brilliant consulting firm called Eric, which is a, which was started by a guy who was an architect, also a philosopher, and an engineer. And he had this idea that if you worked closer with, you know, the designers at the very start, and with the people who were building it, you could create these really beautiful pieces of art. And so he started I think, in the 1960s. In the UK, he was Danish, and created this firm of engineers who were really oriented towards the dream of the architect, like, what did they want to create? And how could we bring the real world to that in a way that didn't like shut down their ideas, but was like, okay, yeah, you want to put, you know, some crazy structure up here that can't be built? Well, maybe it can be built, if we, you know, changed it like this. So use the physics in that way. And so, so he was, you know, he created this firm out of that and so I was lucky enough to fall into working for them, and that's where I learned about, you know, not necessarily being the artist yourself, but, you know, making art come alive. And I think architecture is one of those disciplines where, like, they can create some crazy stuff like, in the real world that exists, you know, and it's amazing to see what what, you know, what people can come up with. And I especially liked the kind of teamwork aspect of it, you know, you kind of needed a whole lot of things to come together to create these, you know, beautiful pieces. So, I didn't work very long in that, you know, as a structural engineer only a couple of years, but I worked in that firm for quite a while. Yeah, recently doing more research and development with them. Yeah. So up until that point, before this guy came up with this idea was this, was that a really sort of radical idea that people would work together in that way? Was it more like sheep would have an idea, and architects would just do their thing? And people wouldn't say, yeah. I mean, I don't know, there's probably historians, or people who were alive and working in that time, that would know better, it was always sort of shared with us, as part of the Kool Aid, you know, like about how it was not, you know, together. But I guess if you go back to like, you know, the idea of the Renaissance man, like art and science were very, very close, right. And I think as, possibly as you know, as society grows, and as disciplines grow you, you know, to be able to be an expert in your area, you have to get more and more narrow in your focus. And so it's very hard to be on top of everything anymore. Because it'll mean that you actually can't do that project, like you can't make it happen. So you get so individual people have to get more and more specialized. And so I wonder if like, you know, art fell off the way there. I think also, like, the economics of things changed. So the, the people with the power in the built environment now, which is what they call, you know, cities and things that get built. It's not necessarily the architect, I think it used to be that, you know, you might commission an architect to do a design, and then they might bring in like a bad engineer and some contractors to build it. And but the architect was like in control of the project, I'm not sure it's totally like that anymore. It's sort of shifted a little bit to the person who owns the property being the, you know, the person who's really making the big decisions. And so I'm not sure that we get quite as daring architecture anymore. Like, you know, would we have the Sydney Opera House? If it was 2022? Probably not. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. Yeah. Yeah. So I think like that, that's probably changed. But yeah, I'm not sure what it was like, before, but in my view, it's always good to have more people earlier on working together, because often, often, you can actually make the thing happen that everybody wants, if you're there at the start. It's just Messier. It takes longer. And it's got a higher chance of failure. So it's easier to like go with what you know. Yeah, that's what you're trying to do. Yeah, that's interesting. And you've raised a point there that I'll bring you back to later won't dive into that just yet. But I've written that down for later. But I want to talk about what you're doing right now. So you have used your extensive experience in your engineering and your designing background to create a business called milkdrop. Can you tell us about that, please? Sure. So, yeah, so I was working for this company. And I went on maternity leave for my daughter, who's now three, nearly four. And I found myself on the end of a breast pump to feed her, which I found to be quite a shocking experience, I think, you know, we had trouble feeding directly at the breast. And so I was pumping on a breast pump, like six to eight times a day, just trying to express milk for her. And I ended up with really damaged nipples. And I found it really painful. And it just like, after a while, you know, I dealt with it for a bit, but after a while, it started to really annoy me that this product had been made that it wasn't clear how to use it, and it was hurting me, but I still kind of had to. And I started to think about how I could make that different. And so I had seen these experiments that people had Um, it's soft robotics are like, robotic. Yeah, like robotic creations that were made of soft silicone. So it's like hands that could pick things up. And it's like, why are breast pumps made out of robotic hands? I mean, the reason is that it's really creepy. And people just wouldn't accept that idea is super creepy. You know, like, everyone's always like, why don't you just make it well, like a baby? And like, would you put a fake baby on your breast to express milk? Like, it needs to be a little removed? Since but, so what I did was, I ordered a kit of silicone and a robotics kit. And I started trying to build something that would feel better than a breast pump, but still work. I mean, within about one hour, I ran into my own limitations of like, how to use these things, because I have no idea about robotics. So I called a friend Daniel, who is a roboticist. And he introduced me to a friend of his who worked at Swinburne University as a prototyping coach. So basically, students in any of the design subjects who have their final projects and want to create, you know, a piece of furniture or a piece of metal or whatever, he's there in the lab, helping them make it so he knows how to make stuff. And both of these guys are lovely. And so we sort of started working together on creating prototypes of breast pumps, that would feel better. I'm also married to a GP. So we had all of this like, insight into how the breast actually works, from sort of a medical perspective. And so the four of us sort of sat around and just started pumping out prototypes. And then every time I had to press pump, I would use Yep, try it out. And then we go back, 3d printed another model, pour some silicone, try it again. And so we did that, like 20 times. That was like the creative bid. And then after that, it's all just been full on, you know, manufacturing, fundraising, websites, kind of thing. But yeah, so that's where I got to. So yeah, the products called what we ended up doing was actually just creating a soft silicone pad that stretches over most breast pumps, we didn't even redesign the breast pump. Because we figured this would, you know, help more people, they've already got a breast pump. And then you just, you know, get this cushion and attach it over the top. So that's what we've been doing. And we launched that in Australia last year, and just launched in the US last month. So that's pretty exciting, helping a lot of women with pain and discomfort. And then we're still also working on other products in the background as well, because it's all good on Yeah, that is such an awesome story. Because it's like you've literally solved a problem, not just for yourself, but for everyone. Like that is so awesome that you can do that. You've got the skin. Yeah, you can. Yeah. I love. Well, I mean, it's not it's not always so straightforward. Like, the first product that we did. You know, it worked for about 75% of people, which firm in the medical world is insane, right. But about a quarter of people were finding they were collecting less milk because the cushion was kind of dulling the sensation of the pump. And so then we were like, Okay, what can we do about that? So we created a cushion that was thinner, or had less material on it, you know, sent that out to the people it wasn't working for dudes were like, yes, great, you know, and then we're like, doesn't fit everybody's nipple size, because everybody's different. So then we added more sizes. So you're like, just constantly trying to find something that works for everyone. And I think it's really easy to be like, oh, yeah, you just like created this thing. And then it works for everyone is amazing. It's never quite like back lossy. Yeah, there's a lot to improve. And we, you know, we think we're sitting now at like about 90%. So we can help nine out of 10 women, and one out of 10 Unfortunately, we you know, we're still working on it. But you know, we can't help but what what we do instead is have free trial for 30 days. So you try it if it doesn't work, send it back, we'll refund you, you know, so we're not trying to add stress, but his you know, that's kind of our way of, you know, making sure that we're actually helping women rather than rather than sort of making it worse. So yes, yeah. Interesting process Yeah. When did you sort of first start this process? What year was Yeah, yeah, it took about six months to do the design, and then about 18 months to do the manufacturer. And really the holdup was not our design skill or manufacturing capability, it was money to be honest and time. So, you know, you've got jobs. Everybody's got jobs. And I feel like it's like, it was it. Who was it that said, like, you need A Room of One's Own? Is it Virginia Woolf, if I got the wrong English author, anyway, someone was like, you know, women will never be able to write until they have an income and space. And, you know, Shakespeare's sister wouldn't have become Shakespeare just by virtue of being female, right? Because women, you know, you, you don't have the luxury of being able to fail and have constant monies anyway, we all have jobs. And we had to sort of do it in our own time. So if we were employed by milkdrop, now, with funding, we probably would have only taken us sort of four weeks to do a design, and then it might have been like, nine months for manufacture. Yeah. So so we sort of had this process of like, you know, in our spare time making up these prototypes, testing them, redesigning them, you know, maybe we did like once, once a week, or once, once every two weeks or something, you know, then we'd go and try and patent that, and then take that around, apply for grants to get funding, and take that around to investors, or accelerators try and prove that there's a market without having a product to sell, you know, convincing people that this was worth investing in. And then, you know, finally, we managed to, you know, accumulate enough funding and investment to then manufacture it. So it wasn't that it took that long it was that it took that long to get them the money to pay for it. You know, the tooling just for these just for reference, it's like 40,000 bucks to make it all. Yeah, right. Like, if you're an existing company, that's fine. But if you're starting from scratch, that's a lot of money. You know, that's not, you know, you know, doesn't come pass by easily. And so yeah, so that's kind of what it took. So it was sort of two years from the idea to being in market. And then you know, it's really been a year and a half for us to even get enough traction to, for people to know about us, like the marketing is almost harder than the design. Yeah, it was like that was the I don't say that was the easy because, yeah, well, it's like, and then all this other stuff that has to happen afterwards. Yeah. Back when? And if this is appropriate question to ask. So you can you can say no, if you want, but because you've got money from other people, or then are you accountable back to them to show what you've made? And everything? And how does that feel really, like? nerve wracking? Sort of? Like, I don't know if that's the word. But yeah, I feel pressure from that. Yeah. You can make it feel like it's full of pressure. You know, like, It's always, it's always a challenge to report back. But, you know, we, we have really good investors, we, you know, we have mostly private investors, and then also the Victorian Government. And I think it's a challenge. Yeah, like, we read, like a monthly report back, right. And every time like, something doesn't quite go, right, you always find yourself wanting to put a spin on it and catching yourself being like, no, just tell it how it is. Because next month, you know, you're not going to be able to say this, I think actually, I've, I've been able to take a lot of the lessons from working in big teams on big engineering projects from that, that one of the good things about, you know, working in construction, or on big projects is that if it's a good culture, there's no blame, you just say what the situation is, you know, nobody's made a mistake on purpose, or like, you know, your prototype hasn't failed on purpose, you're not being lazy, you're not misusing money, you're trying your best to get something over the line, it's really hard to do if it was easy to be done. So you just have to kind of make sure you don't fall into that trap of like treating your investors. Like it's the media, you know, that it has to be a spin on a story or whatever. So yeah, I'm pretty blunt with where things are at. We share as much information as we can, as we have. And the usually the way it works is the investors are far less worried about the things I'm worried about than I am, you know, usually the, you know, usually they're saying things like, no, no, you got this just keep going, like, you know, tell us about your thinking about this. And then they want to talk you through it. It's not like a reprimand relationship or a bad boss. It's like a group of people who want you to succeed. You got to tell them what's going on if you if you want their help. It's kind of Yeah, it's almost that nurturing sort of environment where if you've got a problem and no, because I guess they've had many years experience in business or it'll the diary is they'd be like, well, actually, this isn't a big deal like you know, Oh, it is easy. Yeah. Have you looked at this? Like, how come you haven't looked at this? Like, oh, I didn't even know that was the thing, you know? So I think like, it's just, it depends how you frame it. And it could I think, if I was a little younger, and you know, hadn't learned all of those other lessons, it would be an easy trap to fall into, but I think, yeah, with a little bit of experience, like, oh, no, this is an asset. This is awesome. Just gonna, you know, be grateful that these people want to be involved in this project. And, you know, ask them for as much help as I can get and communicate as often as I can. So I think, yeah, we've we've been really lucky. I'm sure it's not like that with everyone. And I think also by the fact that this product is about women's health, which is, you know, notoriously under served and chronic pain for women is overlooked in or you attract, you attract a certain kind of investor, right? You know, they're already, they're already thinking differently. And they already probably really care about this. So it's a bit of a filter, as well, like, it can be frustrating, because like, oh, how come I'm not getting more investment? How can I seem like the same person as me, also called Alex, but a dude, you know, raising twice the amount and half the time kind of thing. And you can get annoyed at that. But then when you look at who you've got the quality's so good, that you think well, you know, yeah, so yeah, no complaints. Yeah. Good question. I know I sorry. That's okay. I didn't I didn't pre warn you with that. Well, I just thought of it as we're talking about, I thought, I wonder what's that? Like? Yeah, sounds like can be stressful. There's always there's always things that are going well, and things that aren't going well. And yeah, you've just got to like bite the bullet and talk about things not going well. Because if you were in that position, you'd want to know and help us. You'd want to be able to help to like having kids, right, because they don't tell you what's going on. How can you help them? Yeah, that's a whole new conversation. Oh, man. So speaking of children, you mentioned that you started this out with you when you had your daughter. So how old is your daughter now? She would be she's studying for next month or Yeah, right. Yep. And that's your only child. You've got one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we had. We have tried since but I just keep having miscarriages. Which sucks. I'm so sorry. Oh, that's okay. It happens to lots of people. So, yeah, it's just it's been a fairly big gap. Maybe we'll be able to have another one. Maybe not a I've got seven years between mine Never say never. Yeah, exactly. So just sort of taking it easy with that, I think, you know, the last few years of the pandemic and also trying to grow business and life's busy my husband just is just about to sit his final exam for for, you know, final final, the last one after, you know, 15 years of study. So that's all been pretty full on like, we're just yeah, just kind of trying to take it easy. What's your sort of your days look, like you said before about how you all had jobs? And that what is your main thing now? Yeah, so about a year ago, I moved to almost be more than that. Actually. I moved into full time on milkdrop. And, but most people working with us are part time. We have a fully remote team and I call hyper or extreme flexibility with hours. So we have some people, you know, brilliant people doing marketing and content for us. And, you know, two of the three of them are mothers. And, you know, my view is like you work whatever works for you. So if you need time off, you take out if you don't, whatever, if you want to work at midnight, that's fine. If you want to work at 7am that's also fun. No rules, and no requirements, as long as you're getting the work done. And as we all know my There's a total machines when it comes to getting work time because we don't have time for bullshit. Yeah, so like, you know, for the parents, that's what we do, and then we try to make sure that, um, for people who aren't parents that, you know, they are able to use that flexibility how they want as well. So it's not just sort of something that's provided to one group of people. Because they made a choice. It's everyone gets that. And it seems to be working quite well so far. But it's super early days. Yeah. So my days, I like to have a bit of structure, actually. So I'm Monday to Thursday, you know, nine to five. My daughter has daycare here, Monday to Thursday. And then on Fridays, I'll do I'll sort of do a few hours for sort of Friday over the weekend, like customer service stuff and other things that need to happen on the weekends. So I kind of break that up. But I try not to do anything too taxing. And yeah, the days like, I work best in the morning. So I do like the hard work in the morning. And then I moved to the kind of Bitsy tasks that you have as a business in the afternoon. We have our design meetings once a week, always. And that's with those same two boys that I was working with at the start. He Yeah, we basically try to either prototype, a design that we're working on during that week. So we've got something to report back. So we sort of operate on like a weekly cycle. But both of those guys are working in other jobs as well. But yeah, we that that seems to be working quite nicely and moving fairly quickly. Yeah, and then you know, it's a total mess whenever grad is sick, or were sick, or you No, okay, closers for some reason, or they issue random public holidays, you know, which is great for people with jobs, but not if you and your business. So I sort of feel like on average, we're getting about four days a week worth of work. So I've just tried to get really, really efficient. And some days that works better than others. Most of the time, I feel like a failure. And then every time, every now and again, something good happens. And like oh, maybe I'm not such a terrible business person after all. Yeah. But I did learn one of the great things I did learn from one of our investors and mentors is to print out good reviews that you get, or comments that people send you. And when you're having a crappy day, just kind of read through those. And yeah, that does make you feel better. Because it's kind of like, you know, the whole reason I started with because I was annoyed that women weren't being you know, that the, you know, this dis product shouldn't be hurting women, and we could do a better job. And so, you know, when you hear that back that you've changed, your product has meant that someone isn't having pain anymore, and they're able to feed their baby breast milk, which is what they really wanted to do. And you know, they were feeling awful, because they felt like they might have to give up and now they don't you know, that kind of stuff like, Oh, that's really cool. You know, it's nice to have that effect. Yeah. And never underestimate that. Because that I went through an experience with my breastfeeding journey, where at one point, I was producing so much milk that my baby couldn't latch, and then they suggested that I use a shield, which was great, because he could latch but then it decreased my amount of production because the baby wasn't touching my breast. So it was an I went through a lot of issues. And when things finally were good, you know, it changes your whole world. Like it literally changed everything, you know, so I can imagine. I mean, yeah, I was lucky. I never struggled with a lot of pain. But I had other issues. So yeah, it's, it's anything about like the context that you're operating in, right? Like you've got a woman here who got pregnant, stay pregnant, managed to have a baby. And then if things aren't going super well with feeding or any other part of their babies, like it is full on, especially in that first week or two after birth. Yeah. So no matter how you had the birth, no matter how the baby is going, something is going wrong, like nobody cruises through this period. And so this is the situation that you're in. And this is like, this is the point where we're kind of trying to help and so I think like, that always makes it pretty real. Sometimes, like you you kind of wish you were involved in something more fun. Like you know, when you go to do your marketing campaigns, you're like, Oh, I'm so sick of it being such a downer all the time and Be like, No, you just feel like that because you're four years past it. But back in that moment, yeah. Any help is good to help and numb. Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because yeah, like when you. I mean, I had a lot of experiences with postnatal depression and I'm sure you know, all these little things that were happening but all all combining to make this a massive oh yes that's it isn't it I remember with my my second baby because he was born, he wasn't early, he had IUGR. So in my when he was being made, my placenta sort of stopped working about 26 weeks, but no one brought that up. So he was completely formed all these organs and everything like his lungs were mature everything but he had no meat on his bones. Basically, he was in a bind. So he was four pound 14, and he come out. And it was like, you can see every breath he took, you could see his diaphragm second, like it was, it was like I couldn't I had these ideas that I you know, I exclusively breastfed my first baby. And I said, Yep, I'm going to do this with my second. But right from the very beginning, he had to be on formula because he just had to be fed straightaway through this, like the tube, the gavel into his stomach. So they had me pumping. That's all I was doing was pumping. And luckily, they had an electric pump at the hospital. The only other pump would ever use was a manual one. And that was Yeah. Oh my gosh. Just not fun at all. Yeah, and it was like, they just like just just do it. And I was like, But how, like, she was just like, we'll the TV and and show you this video. That must be like 50 years old. And I don't know. And every time I'm not, I'm not begging, you know, midwives at all. But just about every person had their own idea of how to attach and how to latch and how to hold and how to listen. Oh, man like to listen to? Exactly, yeah. Yeah. You know, I was in the public system. So every time you rang that bell, you didn't know which nurse, you're going to say, you know, it's the same in practice sounds like, you know, it was the same credit. Yeah, it was just like, my head, I want to go home. I just want to go home and just do it one way, just pick away and do it. But then it has the questioning, like well, is one way that I'm choosing the right way? And like, this is the biggest consequence decision in my life, because I've got this baby I'm responsible for now. Like, if I do it the wrong way. Will they get enough food? Like, it's just, it's just, yeah, I Your story is not unfamiliar. Like? Yeah, we've spoken with a lot of women now. And that that whole, like, conflicting information? Thing is, yeah, it's everywhere. Yeah. And not always ending up with the best outcome for the for the mom or the baby. So yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. They used to say to us, when we'd ask, what what do we do? What should we do with the baby? And they'd go every baby's different. And yeah, would drive us crazy. Good. We know that's true now, but at the time, when you've got no idea what you're doing, it's your first baby. And you just want someone to tell you what to do. Yeah, yeah. In the end, my husband said, If I hear every, every baby's different one more time, I'm bloody going like he was just like, yeah, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, find sites beautiful thing, but gee whiz? Well, you know, like, one of the reasons why we don't know that much is because we don't invest in the research to learn that much. So there's, there's, you know, good evidence base about skin to skin and good evidence base about a whole lot of things, but not, not everything. And so quite a bit of it is kind of left up to people's individual experience with what they've seen. Or just kind of intuition about stuff, and that's fine. But if if we researched the lactating breast, like we researched other body functions, you know, the same amount of money, we would know a lot more, there would be much more coherent programs, and you know, you wouldn't have be left feeling like that. So, you know, part of this is, is, you know, we have no problem saying All women should breastfeed and it's best for baby blah, blah, blah, but then, you know, where are the programs and funding to support having someone there in the hospital who's not run off her feet looking after all the other babies that just got born? You know, where's the funding to provide you homecare, like we do have these people who are super skilled and really good at what they do, but we didn't have funding for them, like, you know, so I think a lot of this is kind of see like problems around the places like, are these problems that can feasibly be solved, you know, in science are these like problems that can feasibly be solved with just a bit of cash? Yeah. And it's just you haven't chosen to put our cash in that area. It's a little cynical, but I think that's true. No, I agree with that. I disagree with that. Also something cynical, if it was a man's problem, like to put more money, we wouldn't even have to have to have babies, it will be done. Yeah. Yeah, that's another one. So what I want to ask, and I'm not asking you to give away your secrets or anything, but with the other you said you're working on some other things? Are they things that are born from that similar? Like experiencing something or seeing something that you've you've got this passion? Yeah. Yeah, it's all about breast pumps. At the moment. I'm like, we would love to do more products. Like one big area that I've been really interested in is incontinence. It's another one of these, like, everybody has it. You know, so, but, you know, what we're really good at what we've learned how to do is silicone products and, and things that have something to do with the human body. So yeah, so we're still working on breast pumps. And we're working on creating a, you know, these are just cushions at the moment, but we're working on a full breast pump. So that's what we're doing. But in terms of how that works, I'll probably keep that under wraps. It'll be a while before that. So yeah, that's what we've been working on. Which has been fun. Card. Yes. Fun slash card. Yeah. When you say about incontinence, it's really funny, all of a sudden, it's almost like it's cool to have the incontinent Sandy's and it's like, where were they 15? A woman who needed them. Right? Yeah. Another reason why we need more women in STEM, right, you know, that you have a habit of solving problems that you see if you don't see the problem, you know, and solve it. So I think, you know, the, this kind of world of these? Yeah, like, Where was that when I was, when I was pregnant or suffering from this, I think we'll see less and less of that as we go. Or, like, we'll start to see these problems solve more and more, as, you know, you start to see these professions that are in charge of designing things, start to have more women in them, or, you know, people who identify as women who are having those problems. So I think it's only gonna get better. But yeah, there's a lot once you start scratching the surface, you're like, oh, and that Oh, and that oh, you know, yeah. So on that, do you think that it's like, because I know, with the schools, they're always saying, you know, girls getting into STEM and all that sort of stuff? And at the other end of it having women who are the ones with the money, I guess, who are the investors? Is it sort of a bit of both? It's like, encouraging the girls to break through these glass ceilings, I suppose. Or the boys club or whatever. Yeah. But then at the other end, having having the women who sit who might say, Yes, I'm passionate about this, because it's a women's issue, and I want to support it. Yeah. It's like, my grandpa always used to say, like, follow the money. He was Lithuanian, adult, very thick accent and, you know, follow the money, where's the money coming from? And it kind of does make sense, like, you know, why aren't these problems solved? Because, like I said, before, you know, it could have taken us four, six weeks to make this thing and took us two years, because we had to convince people to give us the money now we were able to convince them. And that was awesome. Thank you. But there are plenty of people who aren't able to convince other people to fund to fund these sorts of things. And I think, yeah, well, you know, when you look at the proportion of startups that are led by women that are funded, it's a lot lower, like there's you can Google all of this, like it's pretty, it's pretty dire. And there's a lot of arguments why, like people say, Oh, well, there's not as many women asking and not as many women in technology. And so then you say, Yeah, but why, you know, I don't think there's anything innate about or girls and boys when they young about their problem solving abilities or their ability to design or do art or anything like that. I think it comes a bit later. Yeah. And so yeah, I think it's sort of, you know, what are we teaching them? What are we making look exciting and cool? Yeah. What? You know, you have a lot more often, people say they have more women enrolling in engineering disciplines, such as Humanitarian Engineering, and Environmental Engineering. And then we start putting all of these like stereotypes on women, like, they just want to work for their community, they want to work for environment, like, they don't want to do dirty stuff, you know, so that, that the, you know, they're a little like, flashes everywhere. I guess my point is that it's very complex. But it is, you know, multi multifactorial, which is like a fancy way of saying, we don't really know, and there's lots of things that happen. But you know, part of it is fun. Part of it is education. Part of it is society, part of it is, you know, when we're not putting enough effort into retain people, part of it is like the dropping out after having babies, because it's too hard to get back into work. Like, there's just so much stacked up. It's not really there to prevent this from happening. It's yeah, yeah, like, in a nice way, but we're living in that society, and the odds will be stacked against us, you know? Yeah. And I don't think anyone's doing it intentionally move to this new phase, where it's kind of just like, hung around. And those systems have been designed in a way that are like that, you know, no, one person in that system is like, I'm gonna push women down exam, but maybe they are, but they've never said it to me. And I haven't actually seen that. But what I have seen is, you know, maybe you go and pitch your idea. And they're like, oh, I'll just text my wife to find out how she found pumping you like, No, how about you go and investigate the market, and take a look at the opportunity. And think about this as a solution in the same way that you would investigate any other pitch or any other product, you know, maybe someone wants to auto turn petrol cars into electric cars, you wouldn't go and ask your mate who drives a car, whether or not that's a good idea, you would do your research at a, like, you know, market scale. So it's stuff like that, where, you know, it's not intended to, to be sexist, or whatever, but it kind of ends up like that way, because we have all of these biases. So I think, yeah, you know, it's hard to hard to combat but there are people who are trying to combat it, you know, there are plenty of groups where they're actively, you know, recruiting, not majority female investors, necessarily, but trying to find founders who have women, you know, running their companies or whatever, and presenting those to people who have the cash. You know, there's funds, government funds that are set up, to try to sort of make up that difference that women don't see in funding. So if they're, if they're receiving, you know, 50% of the funding or less of a man, you know, equivalent man, so like, a man is able to raise a million dollars, and the woman has to raise 500,000, or something like that, then the government's are stepping in to try to make up that gap. You know, there's plenty of people doing lots of good things. So it'll work. But, you know, sometimes it needs a bit of a kick up the bum to Yeah, but that is good that, you know, everyone's I feel like everyone's aware of, like you said, the systems that have are in place, and if we go to my hands, like, they're floating around us, it's not like someone standing there, you know, enforcing all this stuff. It's just the world we live in. It is and it doesn't make it better. And in some ways, it makes it harder, because you can't put your finger on it. Like, you know, I, I sort of, it's like, you know, back in the 60s, if you had a person who was working, you know, who happened to be a woman who's probably a secretary and, and someone hits her on the bum, like, clearly sexist harassment. Yeah, that never happens. It doesn't happen so much. These days, it's sort of all under the, you know, feels like it's more under the radar, it's not as easy to point to. Obviously, there's lots of cases where that's not the, you know, the case, and there's a spectrum and, you know, really serious stuff happening, you can see it all over the news. And not on the news. But but for the sort of like little tiny things that are happening during the day, like, you know, you can't call out all of it. But you do know, when you look at it empirically, the results are that women are getting funded, less women's problems are getting solved less. Women's pain is more overlooked. You know, all of this stuff on you know, when you look at it in the big picture is definitely happening. So, how do we go about addressing it? I'm not really sure. I'm sure there are much more experienced people who know more about what they're talking about. But you're part of what I don't see part of the solution that sounds like really And police, I think literally are you're in the trenches doing the work by creating these products. And by getting women involved in making these products funding these products. And I think that's fantastic. Because it has to start somewhere literally, like, it's what I always say, when I read things about how to make change, it's like, but where do you start? Like, really actually start, but I feel like what you're doing is, yeah, well, you start with what you can control, right? Like, you know, there are plenty of businesses that are aimed at trying to improve that postpartum experience or the fertility experience are plenty of them. You know, some of them are based on building up communities of women, you know, that's like what you're doing right? So that happens to be your skill, I'm not good at that. I'm not good at designing things. So this is the one thing I can change. So I think it's just, you just like, you know, you look at the all of the things that are in your sphere of concern, and you look at them the next ring down, which is your sphere of influence, you can't actually change it, but maybe you can influence it a bit. And then there's your sphere of control. So what can you do in that sphere of control that's going to have the biggest influence? And then maybe, over time, you can make that change? But I mean, it's hard. We've got, you know, cop 27, or whatever it is this happening while we're recording. You know, these people haven't been able to make change on like, such an obvious threat. So I think like, change is hard. Yeah, I think you've just got to kind of do what you can control. And hopefully don't go, you know, don't let it sort of derail you too much when it doesn't change as quickly as you'd like. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it Yeah. So when you work before you had your daughter, were you working? Like full time? Or? Yep. And then how did how did you sort of feel about that change of them, becoming a mom and having you focus almost solely on your daughter? Did you go through any sort of, I don't wanna say existential crises. But how was that experience for you? Um, I didn't find out too bad. My husband is really involved in daughter like, we definitely 5050 Maybe he's 6040 We will also at the time of the she was actually my second pregnancy, I had a first and it had ended in a stillbirth at like, 20 Something weeks. And so I was quite anxious throughout the pregnancy. And so that was my challenge. It was like, am I gonna get through this? And so we'd moved back in to mom and dad's house. And we were just all living as I know, it sounds very old school. But I'm European. I don't know, but we loved it. So we were living in my parents house had the baby, and everyone was there to help. So I didn't, it was a shock in that year. Now I've got this child and feeding wasn't going super well. But once we kind of got through that. actually really liked it. I didn't expect to I thought that I thought that I'd hate not working. But I was kind of working on milkdrop Like I had things to work on. And I've always have you know, as long as Yeah, and I wasn't 100% on the baby. So it was sort of quite balanced. I probably not remembering a whole lot of stuff. But yeah, I guess we had three adults before adults for one child. And and we had help and meals and time to walk outside and you know, if I needed a shower mum or dad would take Grettir if Andrew was working like it just wasn't sort of as stressful. So I think I had a lot more community. And also all of my friends had been through it too. And I'd been kind of dealt a blow beforehand. So I'd already had Add that like, oh, maybe you can't have everything you wanted. And it's not all that easy. So when I did have that, when I did have Greta, I was just thankful that, you know, I could have a baby. So, I think, yeah, it wasn't such a big deal for me. I didn't like how when, before that, when I'd said that I was getting married, how I suddenly like people were saying, like, oh, when are you going to stop working or like, you know, or when you got pregnant, the first time I was commenting about it, and feeling like I had to go into a different part of the business to keep my job because you know, engineering can be pretty full on and so like, all of that sort of stuff. I just, again, it's like the unsaid thing, but that was more about a phase in life. And, you know, I did work in a company that really wanted women to stick around, and they really supported me and I, you know, felt very loved and included and all the rest. So it wasn't sort of that much of an issue for me, maybe that's just, yeah, maybe it's, in hindsight, I did find that I wanted to get back to working within about four weeks, as in not working, but like working on something. So I didn't, I didn't like, I'm just, you know, I didn't settle in very well to just being with my baby. Like, I found myself like walking down to the cafe, getting her sleep. And then, you know, getting out my laptop and investigating something that's silicone, you know, but that's just what worked for me. And so yeah, I was lucky enough that I could do that. And, you know, for maternity leave and all these other privileges. So, yeah. But, like, something that I do talk to moms about on this show is having that outlet, because we can't, I mean, I'm sure there's somebody that can but it's not may be 24/7. Thinking about my children, like, I'd go insane. Yes. Yeah, I think that that's normal. Like, I mean, we also I think when you, you know, you have Yeah, like identity is an interesting one. Because, I mean, I had Greta at 35. So you know, you've got your life, like, I didn't change my name in marriage, because I've always been called by my last name, all the way through school and uni. So I kind of was my identity, I had already worked for a decade, like I'd, you know, felt like I'd sort of fought my way through a fairly male, I wouldn't say I don't say dominated because they weren't aggressive. But yeah, majority male environments like so I sort of felt like I had, like, gotten to this point. And then actually what, what I had trouble with was, then all of a sudden, you're sitting on the end of a pump, you're like, oh, no, wait, I'm just a mammal that's here to be milked for the benefit of my offspring. That felt like shit. Sorry, that felt terrible. No, you can say that. Yeah, I think, you know, that's why I sort of started to design that because I felt like, well, no, hang on. Women who have been through this shouldn't be feeling like this, I think I did a survey at the very start to see if anyone else had these issues. And for every 10 women, seven had nipple pain or discomfort using pumps, and eight felt like a cow. So like, I expected the physical thing. But I didn't expect everyone to feel that way emotionally about their product. And the other thing that I didn't like was that people are on pumps, because they're trying really hard to feed their baby breast milk, because that's what they want to do, if that's what they want to do. So, but then they're kind of like, given this experience where like, this thing's wheeled in at them, they're not really explained how to use it. It's sort of like a punishment, but these women should be held up, you know, like they should be, they should be held up on pedestals, these people are sitting on the end of a machine to milk their breasts to give breast milk, like they've trying really hard, really, really hard. Especially, you know, some of them pumping like 12 times a day, they're up in the middle the night turning this machine on, you know, I think so that kind of bothered me. And I think, um, yeah, I did struggle with that. And that's why I created these. But I kind of didn't necessarily see it as just motherhood or my particular reaction to it. I saw it more as, here's another case of where women's experience is overlooked. And, and I didn't want to also, you know, be too critical of these restaurant companies, because they're trying to design something that is affordable, that fits lots of people, the human race is super diverse, like, how do you get something that works for everybody's anatomy and physiology? Like it's not an easy thing to do? And people expect a lot you know, off their products for a certain price. Like I get how they've come into being and I'm glad that they exist, whatever, but I just felt like, you know, we could we could do a better job. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now that's so good. Like, I can definitely relate to this the cow feeling and that then feeling feeling like literally like an animal. Like, like you said, you're supposed to, like if you shouldn't be revered if you're feeding your child and then you go out of your way to get the milk out of your body to continue feeding your child you should you shouldn't be held up on a pedestal, you know. And just like I saw, I see it all the time on like, people I follow on Instagram, but all these particularly in America, they've got an something's going on over there. With the they don't have as much maternity leave or any maternity leave. Like it's not set up, like here in Australia. Yeah, it's tied to their employment. Yes. Yeah. And, and the fact if anyone actually wants to pump, it's like, what do you want to do? What are you talking about? Like, it's not actually something that, like employers give any credit to. And I know from myself as a, as a musician, like, I've had to pump a lot of times, like most like gigs, when you're away from the kids for, you know, more than at least three hours, you know, you're gonna have to, and being in toilets or out in the car, and it's like, you just feel like you're like shamed, shunned away from everybody? Yeah. Oh, I don't know. It's just it's pretty rough. I think. I mean, America is a fascinating place, right? Like, they, they have these conditions, but then they also have, you know, there's an entire company set up there, they're called Minerva. And they create pods for lactation. So you can pop them in stadia, or you can put them in the airport or at university campuses, or downtown or whatever. And there's another one company called Milk stock, which will collect your milk pumped milk, like say you're away for work for a couple of days. And you know, you need like, you need to pump if you're feeling you need to keep that milk supply up. So, though, pick up your milk and send it back to your baby, wherever they are, like so there's all these like, it's, it's not like, yeah, the US is a very diverse and fascinating place. But yeah, they have terrible maternity like terrible government parental leave schemes and like people that kind of on their own, but it doesn't mean they have these other services around and businesses that kind of help them sort of difficult to grasp sometimes coming from coming from Australia, we've definitely learned a lot starting to sell these cushions over there. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Something else I like to talk about is the topic of mum guilt. And I find this really fascinating one because some mums I've had on have actually had to google it to find out what it was. And I think that is brilliant. And I wish that was me. And what's your thoughts on mum guilt? What it is or how to deal with it? Like do you have you experienced it? Or did you have to Google it? Like, where are you at? Yeah, I mean, mom guilt depends how you define it. Like, do I think I'm being a good mother to my daughter? Yes. Have I felt guilty that I'm not around for her sometimes, but I'm not not around for her. Like she's, she's living her best life? For sure. Yeah. She has a lot of people looking after. So like I said, My husband is there a lot. You know, she's, she's got a lot of friends. And because we live in a small town, the community around her is quite strong. You know, she knows her friend's parents, that kind of thing. So I think, you know, she's having a good childhood, she's safe. She's learning lots. She's, you know, she's pretty lucky. So I don't feel guilty about my parenting. But I do have the mom guilt about work. So, you know, am I working fast enough? Am I working hard enough? am I delivering for these people who invested in us like do they realize that I am only working nine to five? You know, am I okay with that? Because there's this culture in that kind of startup world of, you know, working 100 hours a week, which you just can't do. You know, it also comes when And you know, my daughter is sick, and I can't work that day. So there's this like, constant feeling of never getting through the pile of stuff you got to get done. And I've had to learn ways to deal with that, and not get riled up by it so much. But yeah, I find that side of it really, really hard. But in terms of like, am I being a good enough mom compared with the moms I see on Instagram? Yeah, most of the stuff that I see on there is like material stuff. You know, like, are they dressed in the right clothes? Well, no, she's always filthy. But that's because she's been playing outside in the mud, which I think is a good thing. So I think I just, yeah, I don't really have that too much. I did feel guilty that I wasn't feeding her properly. But since she's gotten older, and, you know, we, I was sort of worried like, Oh, um, you know, breast milk is, you know, it says here that it's better for them, and you know, better for their development. And like, what if I'm stunting our growth or, or making a too big? Or like, what if, you know, she's not able to, you know, develop emotionally because she's been fed formula, all that stuff, like at four, there is nothing wrong with this kid. And it's, like, I think, I think I sort of, in the sort of emotion of that time, I think I took overall statistics, too seriously. And, you know, I'm sure there's cases where that's the truth, but you know, you're not looking at it holistically, like, you know, she's got, you know, she's lucky enough to have parents who love her and look after her and she's fine. So I think I'm, I'm much less concerned about that. And that that was like a fairly big lesson. And so, you know, when you go through all those milestones of kid hood, you know, toilet training, really, like we're going through breeding right now, like, I'm not too fussed about it, I just figure well, you know, she'll figure it out. When she's ready. We'll just keep teaching, she seems to like to learn. You know, the only time I get upset is when she's not nice to other kids. And I think I'm kind of a psychopath. But But like, you know, all of that is fixable as well. So I think like, it's not pretty age appropriate. Yeah, I just don't get too stressed about that. And I think she'll, you know, she'll be fine. She's, she's, she's not the one that, you know, we need to be improving things for. Hmm, no, that's really great answer. Yeah. And I'm wondering if I were going before when you talked about living with your parents and having perhaps that, that village that we don't sort of, say so much every day now. And you talk about coming from a European background? I wonder if that I'm not a psychologist, by the way, I'm just I have ideas and I say them out loud. I wonder if that's contributed, like that level of support has allowed you to relax and mother the way you want to mother and not feel any outside? You know, expectations from outside? Because you're really secure in the unit that you've got. Potter? Yeah, I think so. And I've never really been particularly like that concerned about peer, maybe peer pressure or like, perception of others. I think I the thing I do care about is if someone felt that I was being unkind or untruthful or mean or anything like that, I would be totally distressed. But in terms of like, someone judging me to be parenting the right way, or cool, or any of that stuff, I've never cared, and I don't think I ever will. And so, I think that really helps because going into parenthood, you're just like, well, this is, you know, this is what I think is good for my kid. And I just look around at the other parents and I see and I like, take what I like and don't do what I don't like, and, you know, every kid's different, every parent's different. Everyone's juggling their own thing. Like I actually think there's probably less judgement than we think and a lot of that actually, coming from ourselves. So yeah, I mean, I've got really supportive parents. You know, my mum's a super practical, like, pragmatic woman. And, you know, sometimes I'd go to her and say, How do you think I'm doing this? Right? She's like, after worrying about it's fine, you know? Like, she just sort of shuts it down. You're like, Alright, cool. And you're like, well, that's kind of drama. Yeah, that's, that's obvious. Yes. I think that's nice. Yeah. It's nice to have that grounding. Because I think if you're like on your phone, and you start Googling this stuff, you're like, Oh, my God, I'm doing all these terrible things. And I think, you know, you can't hear one thing that made me feel better was like, okay, You look at like Louis, for example, in those parents, like super involved in their kids lives and into their imaginations or whatever, but then you realize it's a seven minute episode. Seven minutes. So you've got like, 24 hours times, 60 minutes, whatever that is, like, you just can't perform to what's out there. So as long as you're keeping them safe, they know they can come to you, if they've got a problem. They get to try to do things and meet different people nurture their curiosity, like I just, you know, we're going to stuff them up in some way. You can't predict it. Like you just kind of wait to see what happens and try to build there. Like, I think you just got to build the sort of building blocks of coping and joy and curiosity and hope that they come to you when they have problems. That's, that's, yeah, no, I really like that. It's very, like I can, I can tell you a lot like your mom like that pragmatism and straightforward. It's like, Yep, it's fair. I mean, I'm not really Yeah, like, I still. So we live, like I said, we live in Brighton, there's a lot of people who are very good at sport here, I'm not one of them. But the kids around here are very free. You know, they're the bike track, they ski, they climb, they do all sorts of stuff. And they're very, I would say, like, physically aware, like, physically pretty good. And so, and some of the other parents are a lot better at this than I am like, they'll let their kids you know, experiment like, you know, ride down that steep slope that ends in a, you know, Cliff, and they'll be totally fine with that. And I'm like, Oh, my God, this is my group is child. I don't want to know how to self I just wanted to be competent, you know, so I definitely have issues with that. But I also know that if she learns her limits now, it'll be better for her later. So yeah, I mean, you know, I'm not perfect. No, apparently, is. It is that balance, isn't it? It's because that's the thing. We still have to sleep at night, you know, even if they want to do like, jump off the roof. It's like, well, hang on a sec. Oh, that's where I draw the line. You know? Yeah. You gotta hit boundary. Yeah. Like, my, my boys are so active in so into everything. And yeah, they're great. I just let them go to the point where I don't feel comfortable. It's like, yeah, I figure. If they think they can do it, they probably can. And if they're willing to give it a go, that probably means it will go okay. Yeah. And if they don't know, then like, I think where I draw the line is like, how they treat other people. So I think that stuff I try to come down fairly firm on. And sort of, yeah, treating other people with respect to being kind and all of that, but like in terms of everything else. Just go for it. We've met a few broken out. That's quite a lot, isn't it? Yeah. The Rite of Passage. Yeah, so I wanted to, I wanted to ask you, back in the beginning, we talked, you mentioned a little bit about how art and science used to be really close together. And you mentioned a little bit in your email that you'd send to me, and it really got me thinking, at what point did these two sort of practices for one of a better word start to go away from each other? You know what I mean? Because you're right rennet. The Renaissance period was massively, massively science, all of that. Yeah, no thinking. And then art somewhere has just floated off into this thing. That's, it's unnecessary for pretty much everything. Things need to be designed, like the designer of art, but then almost the I don't want to say the frivolous element of art, because it's not about probably seen like that, in terms of a capitalist society. So things sort of, yeah. What's your take on that? I think it's shocking that we don't fund it more like one of the sort of down point down. Down points for me, it was I don't know if it's last year, the year before when we started defunding, pure mathematics, and arts degrees and things because they don't have practical application. And as someone who is in the business of practical applications, I think that is the stupidest thing that we could do as a country. You know, our, our new ideas, the things we're going to be using in 30 years time come from people doing art, we're doing pure Mathematics or doing pure? You know, even studying history like these are these are things that, you know, don't have like a monetizable tangible outcome, yet they're absolutely critical, you know, yeah, they're so linked. The idea that universities have to beg industry to do research projects, because the only research projects that have value are ones that industry can use. I just, I just think it's disgusting. Into You know, we've, we are a country that has benefited off, you know, really strong science for such a long time. And then, I don't know, 2015 20 years ago, we started defunding it now with like, the lowest spend on research and development as a proportion of GDP in in the whole OECD, I think, you know, that is really short sighted to me, yeah, when it cut in. So that's just like the, that's just, you know, if you think about it as a spectrum from like, engineering, through mathematics, or applied mathematics, mathematics, and then you get to these humanities and art, like, you know, we're just, we're struggling in applied mathematics right now funding that. And to me, that's all wrong. In terms of, I think, you know, there are people who are mixing these together. And, but it feels more like a luxury than common place, you know, it might be like one artist in residence, might come in and do a few research projects or something like that, but it's not ever part of how we function so much. And I think that's a real shame. And I think it's going to bite us in the air soon. Maybe it already is. And I think art is really important for communicating, and exploring how we feel about things, I think that is responsible for, you know, going into the sort of imaginary world and dreaming up what things could look like. And if you can't dream up what they look like, how can you possibly make them? Yeah, so yeah, I think it's, I think it's really important. I used to I once had this workshop, a guy in, in our company was working with some city designers, and government, people who are in charge of designing cities. And he used to run these workshops for people. And on day two or three, he would put a creative writing piece up on the walls, like he would go home and write this story about the future of this city, from the perspective of a person, and then the whole exercise in the workshop would get these, you know, very pragmatic people to go and highlight the things in that story that kind of like, got them thinking. And then you know, and then the next the next part of it was like, Okay, well, what could we create today that would help us test whether that idea could exist? Now that whole exercise came from him being able to do some really, really beautiful creative writing that got people thinking, and so, yeah, to me, like, all of that is critical. And, you know, and yeah, just because it's not monetizable doesn't mean it doesn't have value. And you can argue that the case for so many other different things, like just because our ecosystem is not monetizable doesn't mean it doesn't have trillions of dollars of value in all of the things it does for us clean air, clean water, all of these, you know, safe climate to live in, you know, yet we devalue them because we can't monetize them straightaway. So I think that that's a real issue that we're going to have we're facing at the moment, and we're going to have to get our heads around, you know, the value of things that are intangible. Anyway, that's my rant on it. Ya know, I look honest, I don't know how to fix it. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Like it really frustrated? The hell out of me in COVID? And I know, you're probably in Victoria, you have a lot worse with the lock downs. And we did. But the thing that shocked me was that the sport kept going, like the all of the AFL footballers, could travel around Australia do what they want, but all of the arts like, at a very basic level, like I had gigs canceled, you know, and then you've got people like, more people traveling into state to do concerts, they couldn't do it. And then all sudden, you'd have 40,000 people at a football match. And I was like, What is going on? And Devin said to me, it's because it doesn't make as much money or you know, that's dumb, money stuff. But you look at this stuff that we look at the things that we identify ourselves as even as a culture like they're not, I mean, sport is a part of it, but it's there's a huge cultural value to these things. And even within the arts. Like I was listening to Richard Flanagan, the authors speak about the value of writing versus film. He's not saying that films would be de invested in, but he was just saying like, you know, Australian authors, like we have an enviable, enviable, you know, culture of writing here, which actually is a very, it sounded like it was a fairly new thing like Australia used to be looked at as like an outpost of British writing, right? Like, yeah, British authors will write, and then Australians will buy it. And then somewhere along the way, they started investing in Australian stories. And, you know, it's been remarkably successful, but we've had the any funding, and it's easier, just like, well, there's all these parts of the arts that are so critical to who we are and what we do. And I just, I think we've kind of like skewed over to this, like, you know, practical, which is great. I don't just obviously, I'm benefiting from it. But I just, it just makes me a little bit sad. And yeah, I sort of, yeah, remember this one? I had this friend at uni. Who's, who was? Who was talking to his dad? He was like, oh, yeah, I've got this friend Alex. And his dad was like, oh, yeah, what does she do? And he was like, A, she's studying engineering and commerce. And then his dad was like, oh, charming. And so my friend, my friend told me this, and I was like, super offended at the time, because like, today, you know, I'm doing all these great things. And then, as I've gotten older, I'm like, Oh, I get your point, like, things are not things are very practical things that are very useful, but like, what am I actually contributing to? Like, what am I really learning? Like, am I actually getting an education? Or am I just like, you know, learning how to get stuff done, which is a useful skill, but, you know, shouldn't be at the expense of people. You know, interpreting the world and thinking about how I'm, you know, telling stories and thinking about how things could be different imagining how things could be different, which is where I see, you know, arts or arts could be if they were funded better. Yeah, no, I totally agree with all that. It's just like, I think they cut the CSIRO. Like, they just was at the Liberal government that did that. I can't remember when it happened. Yeah, and I just think, oh, like you said, it's gonna bite us in the ass. And it might already be doing that. But there has to come a point where all of a sudden, they go off sheet. We've stuffed this up like, yeah, and this obsession with everything happening, like you said, the money, the monetization, if you can't make money out of it. It just diminishes the value of it so much. And that really, is something that really annoys me. Yeah, but I mean, I guess like the consolation is at the community level, people still love it. Like, I mean, you remember the first gig you played when you got back? Right? Where people crying, you know, like, I think, you know, it's pretty overwhelming and even even after you know, log, it's been what, a year and a half since lockdowns here. And anytime I see live music, I'm still super emotional about it. And everyone is. So I think at the community level, like people get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's not. Yeah, I guess it's easy to get down about I'm not in that position. But yeah, yeah. I just don't like the way that you write about, like, people. It's the people in front of you that make the difference. And then the people that make the rules and tell everyone what to do, especially with all that locked down stuff, it's like it just shows you what they think of it. And it's like, even the people that aren't the performers, you know, the people that were allowed to dance but a just like everyone was frustrated at how this whole industry was being judged. I don't know just anyway, I gotta stop. No, no, I can I can unless. With when you were growing up, did you have like your mum, your mum, sort of these cultural norms that are like to sort of look at about where you learnt your stuff. I suppose you have talked about how you mum, you know that pragmatic nature to sort of? Yes, yeah, that's fine. Oh, no, that's not did she work? Like after she had you or anything like that? To sort of show you how you could do it? I guess. Yeah. Probably not at the time you realizing that, you know, you weren't taking note, but you know what I? Yeah, I mean, so I mean, I was I was I had a mom and dad. So dad is a scientist. And so he's The opposite, right? It's super intellectual, very slow pace, slow thinking, precise, like, wants to get to the bottom of everything analytical. And mom is like, on the other end of the spectrum, like, get it done, get it done quickly. 8080 20 rule, like, just come on, you know. So the balance of those, you know, I sort of feel like it's almost a superpower. Like, who am I going to channel today? Like mom or dad? Because both of them are, you know, right for the moment. Hmm. Um, so in terms of like the family balance, I guess. It like on the surface, I guess it would seem very traditional dad worked a full time job. He was like the primary breadwinner. Mum is a physio and she worked locum jobs. So she just only it was kind of like being a replacement teacher equivalent. But she was a physio. And it was with the same group every time, she was really good friends with all the people she worked with. And if someone you know, someone went away for a holiday, or whatever, she might cover them for a couple of weeks. And she actually was kind of working full time. But doing loads of work. Yeah. And what it meant. And what I've learned since is that it allowed her to like, it allowed her to work, but not be emotionally involved in it. So she loved it. She loved helping people. She loved working with those people. And then but she had no like, she didn't have to do paperwork. She didn't have to do admin, she didn't have any politics. She had no commitment. It was just like all the good parts. And I think I remember thinking like, how could you do you know, like, don't you want to like sink your teeth in a bit more. And now I'm like, Oh, I get it. This is awesome. That is fantastic. So I think that's sort of how she made that work. Whereas dad was much more like, you know, I'm, I'm here working in this job. And, you know, he loved I think he loved the job, but there was much more sort of obligation and doing the right thing and Yeah, sort of a more balanced like, you know, slog slog like, yeah, yeah, I know, he loved his work and like the the work that he was doing, and the people that he worked with, and all the rest, but it was definitely much more like, I'm going to plod through here and this is you know, I need to do this and yeah, so I think, yeah, they were different. And in terms of home life, like mum basically just made everything happen. So, you know, dad's job was pretty full on. So he, he was working and then, you know, mum looked after us. You know, all the extracurricular stuff. Got us for school organized. All it just everything for mental load. Yeah. So yeah, but I think I learned a lot from them. They had a very even sort of even decision making it home so that, you know, the power dynamic was very even. You know, I think, especially when it came to discipline. Yeah, it was it was quite even there as well. I don't know. You only kind of like, Yeah, I think they did a remarkable job. I'm grateful that I was born into the family. Yeah, can't really can't really take too much. I was lucky. Yeah. Sounds very balanced. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't perfect. No family is perfect. Like, we definitely have our flaws. I'm sure if you spoke to my husband. He really thinks I think, you know, our two families are quite different. We're definitely more argumentative. We, but it's not like a mean, argumentative. It's just a question like, What do you think about this? So you're wrong? This is how it should be that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, but, you know, strong families are the way which is very lucky thing to have, I think. Yeah, that's for sure. That sounds lovely. You made the argument. My husband and I, we like to debate topics. Yes, we come from very different headspace and backgrounds. He's a financial planner. And yeah, I don't like maths at all. And we have different views when it comes to politics. So we'll often be having discussions and the little one will say, Stop arguing. And we'll both be like, but we're not talking about this and I'm getting passionate about. Yeah, yeah. So and I think that that's kind of like it's sort of like a, you know, you're not you're not gonna get in trouble. Yeah. Sometimes I find you need to sort of argue things out to understand what you think yourself as well. And so I'd agree with that. It's nice to have that space. Yeah. Less, you're less and less able to do that in public. Oh, or you basically get shut down for a while and I offending someone or saying the wrong thing or something. So yeah, you do need those safe spaces to debate things and to, to thrash out ideas and, and like my eldest child, he's 50, nearly 15. So he's asking some interesting questions and you want to be able to feel like you can ask them. You know, like I said before, you hope that your child does come to you. And he certainly comes to us with interesting things. And we're like, Yep, okay, we can talk about that, you know. It's good. I quite enjoy a conversation like that. I enjoy conversation. Can you share with us the website? Or any socials that you active on that you? Oh, yeah, sure. So, yeah, so milkdrop pumps.com. And in the new year, we'll be running a campaign. You know, I mentioned a couple times about how there's not a lot of research in women's health, or not as much as they could be. And one of the things there's not much research on is women's nipple anatomy, and lactating or otherwise. And that's a real problem, because it means when you're trying to figure out how to design products for women, you actually don't have the basics available. A lot of research on women's nipples is older research that was about nipple attractiveness. Where should the nipple be placed on the breast? How big should it be? What shape should it be? That kind of thing. Some of that was used for cosmetic surgery, some of it was used for breast reconstruction. And then, the other area of nipple research is for social media, identifying female versus male nipples to take down the female nipples, because it's illegal to post them not illegal, but against, you know, Getty policy to show a female nipple, which we could go into another podcast about that. And so what we're trying to do is ask women to measure their nipples to help us build up an understanding of what women's bodies actually look like, so that we can design things for actual women. So we've got our campaign on that. Coming up, in the New Years, watch out for that. Be on Instagram at milkdrop, underscore pumps, or tick tock, ah, your tick, DECA. I still haven't gone there. I feel like it's too much of a big rabbit hole for me to go down. It's pretty full on news. And I'll put hyperlinks in the show notes so people can find you. Yeah, thank you so much. It's been so lovely to chat with you and to you to your achievements. And thank you for for thanks for having me. I feel like a bit of an interloper in the in the art world. But who? Artists, hopefully Yeah, to hear from someone who appreciates it, but doesn't do it. No look, and I think that the things that you've shared are extremely relevant. So please don't feel like you're, you know, I don't know what the word is. But you're not. You're not and you know, you, you've seen it, you've created something amazing. I'm really, really happy that you did it. And I'm really happy for you for what you've done to say. Good on you. And stop blabbing now to say thanks very much. Okay. Awesome. All right. Thanks again. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time moms chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parent called Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Season 2 Special Recap of Season 2 Special Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts We've come to the end of another year. As we say goodbye to 2022, I thought I'd take this opportunity to relive some of my favorite moments from the podcast over the past 12 months. It goes without saying that without my amazing guests, this show would not happen. They put so much trust in me. They open themselves up, make themselves incredibly vulnerable. They hand me all of their thoughts and their feelings. And they trust me to put it together and present it to the world to complete strangers, like you, dear listener. And it goes without saying that if it was not for you, then I probably wouldn't keep doing this podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for giving these incredible mothers your time for inviting them into your homes. And I hope that by hearing their story, it gives you courage, it gives you confidence and it sends you a big virtual hug, to know that wherever you are in the world, we're all in this together. We all feel the same way. Enjoy this special episode to round off Season 2 of The Art of Being a Mum **We discuss mental health issues, miscarriage, body image and diet culture on this recap** Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio, Georgia Fields Australian indie artist and guest in Season 1, and Scott Maxwell Father's Day episode from Season 2 Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes, together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. We've come to the end of another year. As we say goodbye to 2022, I thought I'd take this opportunity to relive some of my favorite moments from the podcast over the past 12 months. It goes without saying that without my amazing guests, this show would not happen. They put so much trust in me. They open themselves up, make themselves incredibly vulnerable. They hand me all of their thoughts and their feelings. And they trust me to put it together and present it to the world to complete strangers, like you, dear listener. And it goes without saying that if it was not for you, then I probably wouldn't keep doing this podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for giving these incredible mothers your time for inviting them into your homes. And I hope that by hearing their story, it gives you courage, it gives you confidence and it sends you a big Virtual hug, to know that wherever you are in the world. We're all in this together. We all feel the same way. And we all at times have a lot of trouble expressing that to other members of society. Thank you again. Enjoy this special episode to round off season two of the art of being a mum Kate Mildenhall, Australian writer podcaster and educator. I'd had this moment when the book came out of kind of re identifying as as as a writer and well I'm a professional out in this world. But also then I just come home and back to packing snacks and feeling guilty about them not being organic and the rest of it. Monica Crowley, Irish printmaker, oils, artist and visual artist, I find it very hard to do a picture doesn't have some kind of personal or autobiographical meaning for me, I don't just sit down and do something that looks nice. Which is it's a weird layer to put on myself. i Some people are just able to enjoy the process of painting. And but, uh, sometimes I feel like, you know, I think about it, I overthink things maybe I don't know. Is it sort of like a way of processing experiences or remembering things or making sure you remember things is anything like? Yeah, I think actually, my art is really therapy. For me, it's how I work through my own emotions. Like, initially, I know my, my print practice, I started, I was actually doing a lot of prints of places I traveled and using photographs I took him I think when I became pregnant with my first child, just this huge wash of terror and emotions. And you know, this, the weight of expectation of, you know, actually, I often say is, in my like, artist statement, like, my work is all about identity crisis. And you know, and I think that was the point when my art practice changed to become this personal thing, where I needed art to work through my own emotions to try and make sense of them. And sometimes I'll do like a body of work and then step back from it and go, Okay, now I understand what that was about. And this is an I can totally see. When I finished where it all came from, and kind of understand myself that little bit better, right. Jessica Mendez, Canadian water colorist and illustrator. Well I started was more, like I said, when, like our evenings became our own again, like when my daughter was around six months. And at that time, I've just kind of like, use the time that you need to, like, clean or do laundry and just boring things. Or if I wanted to, like sit down, I would just, you know, like scrolled the news, which is so negative during this time. So I just, I just wanted something that was fun and more positive. And it ended up being like a really good thing that I chose to do. Charlotte Conde, US artist, Illustrator, and designer. You're worrying about someone else all day, and you're meeting all their needs all day long. It feels almost like you're disappearing as a human being the roughest part for me. While it was so hard when they were little, and I felt lost sometimes was when my son went to school, though. Because then I was like, What am I gonna do with my life? Like? It's not like, they don't need me now. But it's a different need, like that kind of self sufficient. And they're going to school for a good chunk of the day. Like, what am I going to do? And that is when the art got pretty intense for me, because I needed to explore that for myself. Submit the red fin, British expat mixed media visual artist, this recurring dream, where we had a house and one day just discovered this door and opened a door. And it's this whole wing, like a house. Like there's stuff that we didn't even knew we had. And it's like, Oh, my God, when did we get bought this house this week. And you just like, I had this dream so often. And then looking into it and doing a bit of research. And they say it's when you're, there's a part of yourself that you're ignoring, and neglecting. And it's there the whole time going, come on, come discover me. And it made total sense. And like, because this is I've done, I've literally shut myself off. My interests, my creativity just was like, just not being utilized. I used to tell my kids stories and made them up and that kind of thing. So it was creative in different ways. But in terms of actually physically creating an art piece, it was totally neglected. Semi line, us mixed media, paper artist. Life feel like I could sprinkle mom guilt across the world. And that's leftover like so then after after I hear all these other people say that they don't have it. I'm like, Okay, well, what is mom guilt to me? You know, because then it's like, kind of this really interesting question of like, well, what does that mean? And? And then when do I have it? And I never have it with the creative stuff. I think it comes back to you know, when I talked about sort of the core identity of being a creative and like, this is a lifestyle, instead of a choice. Yeah. And so I think where I have had the most trouble with mom guilt is, I feel like I always want to look at each individual kid, and try and make the best choice for that kid, you know, and in the pandemic, I feel like there were no good choices. Rosie Rutherford, British clarinetist and freelance musician. What's your thoughts about mum guilt? I feel like we shouldn't have it. But I think so many of us do. I think it just stems because you care. And you want to make the right choices for your children. And I think as mums, there's this thing isn't in there anything that you do for yourself. It's at the expense of doing it for your children. And I feel like now my attitude towards it has developed after like being on my third child, because I know, when I just had Ruby, you know, kind of anything feel really, really bad. And I wouldn't, I'd be like, Oh, no, I can't do anything for myself. I can't go for a run because the house is a mess. And I've got to do this. I've got to do the washing and everything before I do this little thing myself. And now, I'm a bit like, well, if I want to play my bass clarinet for 10 minutes, the house isn't there, then I'm just going to do it because I only have one life and it's not fair on everyone else that I'm resentful because I don't get to do it. Then Lin, Australian pianist and influencer in China Social Media what they tried to say that woman needs to wake up. So I guess it's a bit late, but at least they asked me to have this slogan. Woman You have to wake up. You're not just a mom. You're also different. So I guess the Australia this is so natural, like, I saw my friend like yesterday, they get butts today they already you know, grabbing the baby just at the workplace. Yeah. And you cannot do that you turn up people just like what are you crazy and that's why I love Australia because I just feel like I can race and I can do whatever I want. So I know I was born in China, but there are things I don't like. And what I'm doing now is I don't judge about the things I don't like I just support the things I like and let more people know about it. And I wanted to let people know about it no matter how many children I have, I'm still a woman get and masa kindler, Hungarian born flautist, composer, and pianist people around me, reduce me from this to this biological being, you are now a mother, you have to do this, this and this and this, and you should not do more. And we don't want more from you. This is now what you have to do. This is your responsibility now, to be your biological being. Not a person, not a woman, and not an artist. And in the first few months, I felt it. I was on the road with with my baby in the pram and you know, that people seeing in you just the mother, you will not recognize. Like, like a woman. This is this is a mother with a small child. And that was Kelly knives, Australian professional stylist. And I just thought, you know what, I just I need something I need something to take my mind off of just motherhood to make me feel like me and I, I genuinely think you know, it was the best thing I ever did in everyone's different some people are like, Yep, I need to get back to work for the same reason other people are like, No, I need to just give motherhood, my all and that's my focus. And I don't think there's a right or a wrong, I think it's about what what you feel is best for you and what you think is best for your family and your mental health. And I know I said that to my daughter quite a few times. And like, you know, it's not just about the baby, it's about me too. And sometimes when I've said that I almost felt a bit selfish because I felt like oh, you know, like, I should be giving motherhood, my absolute everything. Alex McLaughlin, Canadian acrylic and watercolor artist. So is that where the watercolor started to come in a bit. Like you're just sort of testing out what else you can do. And that does have a lot to do with just like incorporating my practice into my life and trying to be more efficient. Because I've never really been able to involve my kids in the studio too much. I have two really active boys. I tried I really did try to to just be casual about it and set them up and then but yeah, my oldest was could not sit still he'd get into the the worst things, you know, like climbing the walls. So and I didn't want to say no, I didn't want to say no all the time. Right. So we kind of avoided being in the studio too much. earlier on. Now I am learning with a prefer rose Dela Cruz, New Zealand photographer. It was important for me to have a project for myself. That is outside the routine of taking care of baby taking care of everything, you know, running the household. Yeah, you know, something that was for myself a break because then once I once I had that, it was kind of like I was able to I don't know be more relaxed. Yeah, when I take care of her and she could feel that. Dr. Erica ball, US classical music composer, violinist pianist and educator. I've been to concerts by myself and people who knew me and they would you know make remarks like oh, you're missing bedtime. I'm so glad you came to the concert. Like I'm so sorry. I'd missed bedtime and I love missing bedtime. It is my least favorite part of day. Hi, I'm so glad to be here. My husband is perfectly capable of putting our children to bed. Yeah, he does it most states even if I'm home. Isn't that it's Interesting have the judgment people just assume that it's like, that's what you should be doing your mom, that's what you should be doing. It's like, hello, they have two parents like, exactly. Ah, it really frustrates me and comments like that they just don't go very far to help Donna Stevenson, senior dancer with the Australian ballet. And also that first appointment, I think, you know, I had all these questions about the babies and you know, this feeding this and, you know, sleeping in their tummies, all this stuff, you had this list of things like all every new man does. And she's like, I don't want to talk about babies. It was so amazing. So experience is I want to talk in my mind anxious me, I just wish we could get to the things I want to talk about. So long getting to know both of us. myself lucky, our stories, how we got to this point, and you know, obviously with the traveling and the quarantine and all of the know driving on the highway and all of this and Jessica and and she's like, you know, it's a pyramid structure. And she said, everyone thinks that the parents are, you know, come last. And they're at the bottom, but it's actually the other way around. If you're at the top and it filters down, if you guys aren't okay, no one's okay. And then when it came to me, if you're not okay, no one else is okay. And that's not a burden to you. That's just where we need to put you in this picture. Because you're going to be putting yourself down here and everyone else comes first. And that the baby's needs come first. And as someone who does like perfection in that way, whenever they'd cry, I'd feel like a failure. When I couldn't settle them, I'd feel like a failure. And like lots of mums do because that's your feedback. And you equate that to how well you're doing at being a mum. And when you've got two of them at once doing that. Or when you've just got one settled and the other you think your status quo is constantly being disrupted, so therefore, you must be doing a terrible job. And someone else wouldn't be doing this better than you. Heather McClelland, UK based singer, songwriter, musician, composer, and music educator, I'm very much someone that like feels I'm very much someone that likes to be doing stuff, you know, I've got this quite a lot of pressure of like, oh, I need to be, you know, I like to achieve things I like to do. So it's like, we're quite driven. And then like, always, like, oh, I should be trying to do this and do that. And I want to like this. And I want to, you know, there's always a sort of drive. And I think with, when you have a child, it's been quite good for me to learn to like, just be in the moment as well jamming and not feel guilty that like, I haven't been creative, like on that day is like, oh, yeah, you can get some foam out and play on the tray or whatever, you know, it's like, you're just like, in the moment doing stuff with him and kind of discovering things of having like, these days, so yeah, you know, and he's gonna go to school in September. So it's gonna be like, this whole new chapter of like, getting sort of, you know, different time back and stuff. Chapter. Yeah, it's exciting to look forward to that too. Because yeah, definitely. Yeah. Five days, five days. Louise Agnew, Australian photographer. A lot of people believe and I added to that, once you're a mother, then you're complete. So there's this idea, this idea that becoming a mother will solve everything. But then once you become a mother, you don't feel like you're doing that job well enough all of the time. So therefore, you're not complete. And you have to keep this cycle of Yeah, that was just a thought that popped in. Ideal that you're working towards this thing, and that's when you reach the top, but it just keeps getting higher and higher. That point. The goalposts keep shifting, I thought it was Anjali Gan, Tasha mula, Karen Mila, and Camilla flurry representing mother Wilde, a global collective of women who believe deeply in helping mothers to Mother themselves. I really fucking love myself. And I also really care about my well being. And feeling guilty does not serve my well being, and it does not improve me as a human in any way. Guilt is for when you're doing something wrong, something bad, something malicious. So when a mom feels guilty about going out for a date night, instead of being with her kid, you're trying to tell me that her pleasure and her well being isn't a value. Or when a mom is with her kids and she's not working. She should feel bad about that. No. How does that help her in any way? I can try my best to be as healthy as I can and curate a beautiful childhood for my children. But at the end of the day, you can experience it in their own way. And that's not mine to choose, right. But the one thing that I can control is I'm not going to give them a mom, who is resentful, who is depleted, and who, you know, is, is, yeah, just just unfulfilled and unsatisfied in her own pursuit, and life, that part I can do. And my hope is from there, those are kind of some keys and some tools for them to do that in their own way in life. We wanted to make sure that we had like the big dreams, you know, like the maybe the once in a lifetime dreams, but we also wanted to have the dreams like just being able to have a bath by yourself without being interrupted. So I think it's just the act of dreaming versus what the dream is. And, you know, we kind of say that as well, like, whether you go off and do it or you know, like, it's not the point, it's just reminding yourself that you know, to dream. And then, you know, it was at a time when I was like, I had a four year old and a two year old and I was about to go on to one of many things that the spiritual curious seeker was looking for. And it was just like, Oh, these voices, and it was just like one man along the way, who was like, Oh, where are your kids? And who's looking after them? And it's like, why are you leaving them? And I remember like, oh, my gosh, he's right, why am I doing this. And then it was like, wait a minute, I have given so much already, through the pregnancies through the daily mundane things that I can ask for little bit of time away, and I didn't need the permission of my husband, they were thumbs up, didn't need the permission of my parents, they didn't know where I was going. And, and it was just culture at large that I just had to get away. LED Australian music publicist, if you're trying to do something, and it's not working, it's not getting to you to where you want to go. Be creative and think up a solution. Think of a different doorway. For me, you know, I could have sat here 2020 When I was like, Well, you know, being a mum is not enough for me, I want more. I've got to just wallow in self pity and feel bad for myself. And I'm the victim. You know, at the end of the day, I I've kind of rose above those thoughts and went well, Can I switch? Course you can pocket. I've got a certain amount of assertiveness within myself, I have the self belief. I feel empowered. Fuck it, I'm going to make it happen. And I'm going to keep building on my empire of creative projects. And I'm not gonna stop Catherine Colette, Australian author and podcaster I think Mum, guilt is hard to escape, on some level. What has made a massive difference for me and I would say it's probably in other writers lives as well is publication. So pre, it's like that gives something a legitimacy and a validation that all of those years where, you know, you might get an article here or a short story here and all that sort of stuff, is the real turning point in terms of perception, because I think there is a relationship and, like a real life relationship between perception and and that that kind of valuing of what you're spending your time doing. There's also an element that is in your head as well. Danny van Australian hosts presenter and Master Chef staff, like I remember dropping off Harlow to daycare when I was doing that job I was talking about earlier going and chopping veggies and making these organic meals for people. I felt so bad about doing that. Like, I light up when I got there. You know, I felt good. I was able to just go into a job that I didn't really have to think about too much. And it made me feel good. But God I felt bad about just dropping off at daycare and picking her up. Light really light. And I feel like Yeah, it's like do we carry this guilt? Like why do we carry this guilt? I don't know if fathers are carrying as much guilt. I don't know. I don't know. I don't like Yeah, it's hard. But I feel like I do I have less guilt now. I would say so I think I've, I've think I've tried to accept that, you know, things are as they are. I'm still my own person. My kids are their person. We're all just trying to do our best. But yeah, there's still guilt around. SHAN Rong Janessa Jovic tore us violinist and music educator. Also I won't let my identity that's part of me. I don't want that to go. I want my children look at me in the future, when they answer understand. I'm in their eyes, I'm not only their mom, I want them to see that. During the hardest time, I never give up what I love. Because playing a violin teaching is what I love. And making music, be able to play with people is what I love. And I want my children to see that even through the hardest time, I have to make choice to give my life my time and attention to them. But I never give up what I love. And I always come back to it. Andrea Reyes, Australian mixed media visual artist and creativity coach. Well, here I go, like I'm into the next stage of my, my life and like I'm becoming a mother. And this is who I'm going to be now. Like you kind of all for me, it was a very confusing period where I just didn't know what I was doing or who I was, I felt like, kind of, yeah, I was out of control life was happening to me not like I wasn't in control of it kind of so now I've realized that actually, you can do whatever you want. You have full control of everything and Ms. Coleman, Australian indie musician, I think I would love to live in a world where the term mum guilt is just not a thing. And if we're gonna have anything, it's parent guilt. And I don't even think parent guilt should be a thing, but at least that crosses genders and roles, you know, like, why, for instance, because I'm a woman should I feel really bad about, you know, the dishes piling up and you know, an unhealthy dinner. If, like, you know, a male parent really doesn't. Now I'm not saying they don't. And I'm not saying it's that simple. But yeah, like, what is it about? Like, why have we been conditioned to kind of carry that burden or that? Yeah, so yeah, if we, if we have to feel guilty, can we all please feel guilty TKF. Just on the women, John Cook Father's Day episode, US conductor and educator, but the generation of our parents. They had to give up stuff. I'm sure that you know, like, my mother never went out on our own. And my father, who was in the restaurant business was out every night. And come home till two three in the morning. So I wish they almost did some stuff for them. You know? Yeah. And that certainly is not you know, your parents or my parents reality they had to give up things that they might may have wanted to do. But I feel bad for that. You know that that was the case then. But it's not now. Mercedes roaches us claim maker and Potter. As a woman, it's a strange thing like the post feminist woman like we're no, we're, we're still expected to be these amazing moms. Keep a good house not look like a big mess. Right and like, show up for everybody all the time. And I think it does create a huge amount of guilt. We're like, we are never enough. There are never enough hours in the day for us to do all of the things for all the people and then I think the more than anything, we don't like there's no value on recharging for ourselves, right? Like it's almost like a like this weird luxury like, Oh, you're gonna go have quiet time for yourself for an hour and that's a priority for your life. What about your dishes, you know, and it doesn't create this like, very uncomfortable level of guilt. And it's like, Well, why don't you ask my husband about the dishes because he's a partnership. It doesn't matter how much we do. It is never ever enough. Shweta based Indian born photographer based in the United States, even now like every day that passes I, I see it better. I I see I see myself better now than I did then. And I was lost and I was very unhappy. And only I knew that. And I was I felt guilty that I had everything that I needed. I had a I had healthy children, you know how it is like you have a you have a happy family in a sense and And saying why do I still feel so empty? And and you know, I said, I'm a thinker. So what do I like what's going on? My children are flourishing and I was diminishing. There was something wrong there. And I think I had to acknowledge that Danny Oh, covenants Netherlands born author based in the US, technically I did, it looked like that on the outside, I had exactly a good list, a great husband, Healthy Kids, great neighborhood, beautiful home, good schools. And something was still missing. And I wasn't happy. And I, for the longest time, I would beat myself up. Stop being so ungrateful. Be grateful for all the gifts in your life. You should be happy, you should be happy, you should be happy, why you're not happy. But at some point, when my youngest was in preschool, I realized, stop, you got to start listening to yourself. Because if you don't make a change, now, you're going to end up being bitter and unhappy and resentful, and you do not want to go. You don't want to be that person. Emily Johnson, US author. It's hard. I mean, that's the you know, people think physically being a mother is hard. But there is a lot of emotional second gasoline. And you know, and I'm doing this correctly, what you know, am I a terrible mother? Am I a good mother? Am I you know, am I completely screwing my kit up for the future? And unfortunately, a lot of people don't talk about that unless their moms themselves. Fiona Valentine, Melbourne artist, and artists business coach, I think we're experts at coming up with guilt, over all sorts of things, and mothering right? Am I living, right? Have I done enough? Am I enough, and just recognizing that part of the journey, particularly when you pick up creativity, for some reason, creativity is just opposed. People have written books about it, it's not even just internal. It's, it's something outside of ourselves, and recognizing that gives you a bit of something in your backbone that says, this does matter. This is good for my kids, when I'm being a whole person when I'm being creative when I'm modeling joy for them. Simone wise, South Australian visual artist, I'm encouraged by there are a lot of artists, female artists who are going strong into their older years, or even like, fully come into themselves as artists later on. So while I do get frustrated that I don't have the time to dedicate that I would like I still feel like I've got the foundations of skills in who knows what will happen in the future, I might have more time to push things further. Amy Siegfried, US podcaster and entrepreneur, my mom and I talk a lot about how being a mom has shifted so much since she was since I was little till now, because a lot of the, you know, in her from her perspective, a lot of these women's movement movements have really taught us to take care of each other, versus fight each other when it really comes down to it. And so, I do think the mom guilt looks a little different. You know, I joke that, you know, we we, the cookies come out of the little package that you buy from the store, and you put them on the pan and my mother takes my son and makes them with a mixer and the whole nine yards. This is how mom does them. This is how Grammy doesn't and they're both okay. And that's okay. And we go do this where you guys don't do that. It's it's truly one of those things. And I think the challenge is probably getting out of our own heads. So much us feeling like we need to put ourselves in this box and her whatever that might be or, you know, we see people on Instagram who you know, cut their children's sandwiches into fun shapes and sizes every day. And then they also take the zoo, but somehow they work full time. And then they go and you're like how how do you possibly make dinner and go to the zoo and go to work from nine to five and then cut their sandwiches to look like the Taj Mahal? Like I don't understand how this works. So yeah, I think it's just it's setting our own perspectives of what we're able to do and what we just have to let go. Lisa Sugarman us writer, more and more people are starting to show their real selves on social media, which I love. And saying, I'm actually not okay. I'm actually a disaster. And I'm this and I'm bad and that's owning it and being honest. In the same way. I think moms are starting to recognize that this whole guilt thing is complete bullshit that they shouldn't buy into you because it's just going to chip away at your soul and your confidence and your self esteem. Because if you don't, and this goes back to perfection if you don't, if you don't do everything the way you think you're supposed to do it, now you're riddled with guilt. And now you're in capacity. So it doesn't know what, yeah. Bianca, Mara, US photographer and podcaster. The other night, my two little boys are in the tub together the most adorable thing you've ever seen. I just wanted to go on the bed and be scroll on my phone. I just wasn't I, how many times are they going to be in the battle, it's like, you go into the role of like, I know, I know, A, B, C, D E, I know why I should be there. But I'm not right now being present for me and to my needs, is to go lay down on the bed and not handcuff myself to this moment to like, keep my energy where I want it to be to feel like I can actually appreciate them when I'm in that space that I want. And I think about when I first drove the coast to California, for the first time ever, I've never been to the West Coast. I drove from LA to San Francisco. At first I was like, Hi. I was not literally but like, I just felt like I was like, Oh, I never seen such beauty in my life. I was like vibrating. By halfway up. I was like, literally nauseous and I don't think it was carsick. I was like, I can't it's too much. Like I feel like I need to, and I close my eyes. I was like, I can't see anymore. I can't I can't take it anymore. Like, I'm you know, and that's kind of what I feel like about, about guilt and about. It's this, it's the knowing, it's that wise, like I get it. I know all of the reasons why I this is amazing, but I'm just not, I'm not there. And I think the more that you can feel confident about choosing yourself in those moments, makes you even more richly there for the times where you choose that moment, you know, that is brilliantly put, honestly. Dr. Sophie Brock, Australian motherhood studies sociologist, what I really hope to try and do in my work and for us to do as a culture is to break open this dichotomy of, you're either a mother and you love your children, and you have this connected relationship and you've lost yourself, or you need to actually break away and step away from the mother. In order to be the self there's these two polar opposites set up and it's like actually know that there's a third way here, there's a way for us to flexibly move between our roles and to integrate our sense of self without mothering. And how much of a gift that is for our children. Right that we we don't need to break away pieces of, of who we are, and have our own authenticity in order to somehow hold up a mirage of them of who we are like that doesn't actually serve them. Kate King, US counselor and art therapist, I've always felt like the, like our babies, teach us the lessons that we would not learn from anyone else, we would not let anyone else get close enough and honest and vulnerable enough as we let our children get to us. And so some of our biggest issues will never come up for healing. If our kids don't reflect them back to us, you know, and control is a really big one for a lot of moms. And it's really healing to be able to finally sort of unpack it and work through the layers. Scott Maxwell Father's Day episode, Australian musician and educator. I know through experience that, you know, kids love kids like to sing, but sometimes they may annoy their parents. And it might be just natural for the parents to tell them, hey, you know, you sound like a dying dog or something like that, you know, and the kid might sound like a dying dog too. But that can really pay detrimental to that the psyche of that. So, a lot of the times, you know, I like to tell parents that if your kids if your kid is learning music, and it sounds horrible, then that's probably good because they're actually probably trying something that they've never done before. Some of my best singers and their parents will say that they make really silly noises a lot and that's that's experimentation of, of the voice or whatever. It is part of what my studio is still, I'm still experimenting. You know? I'm 50 years old and I can't stop Since I was 11 years old, Steve Davis Father's Day episode, marketing consultant, comedian, educator, and podcaster. Alexandra was born, Nadia was taken to a room to sort of recover. And I was taken back into the room and there was AJ, in a little caught. And I was quietly getting my laptop out to do work. And just as it was about to open, I was struck by fear that the first thing AJ would hear was the Microsoft music when the computer opened, and I slammed the lid, I couldn't let that be the case. And so I reached into my bag and brought out the complete works of William Shakespeare as you do, as you do, and I went over by her, and I read a sonnet to her. So that that was the first thing they actually heard. And then I opened up and I played Alexandra leaving, which is the Leonard Cohen song that she's named after. Fleur Harris, an Australian illustrator and designer, I realized that taking taking time for myself is important. And, you know, a couple of times, I've said to my husband, you know what, I'm gonna go and get a hotel room in the city. And I'm gonna go out for dinner by myself, and I'll be home tomorrow. Look, I've only done it a couple of times. But it's been at those points where I've thought, oh, my gosh, I am. I'm really maxed out here, like, stress wise. As or, you know. And I've gone and done that. And I've thought I haven't felt guilty about actually need is for the sake of, you know, my sanity and, and also, I'll come back, you know, better. And I almost feel like not doing those sorts of things is actually would actually be remiss of me in being a good member of my family. And a good mom. Janelle Thomas, Dubai based singer and songwriter. So then with Hendrix, I actually was back on stage six days after he was born. Oh, we had a gig that were waiting for us. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll be there next Monday. Yeah, I'm coming. That is incredible. That is amazing. How did you do it? Like physically, like we did? You must have like, a good birth and everything like good after? Or was it like really? I did. Like, I really, you know, I had great pregnancies. And the actual deliveries were a little bit tough. At times, I have babies who really enjoyed their accommodation. So they kind of had to be like, convinced to join us on Friday, you know, but then once they were out, they were perfectly healthy. I was healthy. I was moving around, you know. That being said, like I had, I had said, I'm gonna be back on stage. Everybody was going, Are you sure I was like, that is the wrong thing to say to me. I've said I'm sure you know, I'm just going to do this. Obviously, the week between birth and actually having to leave newborn baby for, you know, the six, seven hours that is required when you're when you're doing again, even if it's in town. That week was just so stressful. All I could think was I just need to pump enough. I need to be ready. I mean, one of the things that made it easier is we've had the same nanny since Theo was born. So at least she was really ready for that, you know, feels perfectly comfortable with her. So there wasn't any of that kind of stress of who's going to mind the baby like I had someone I trusted implicitly, but still. Yeah. And then on the day of just, I was getting ready for work, and I didn't have a single pair of shoes that fit because my feet are so swollen. And I thought and you know, and it's a jazz gig in a nice restaurant, and I thought I'm gonna have to go there in like, trainers that aren't even done up because I literally can like I was totally miss piggy. You know, I was just I couldn't even put my feet in anything and so I found this like, ghastly pair of slip ons that were really stretchy. And all I could think is please everybody look at my huge massive cleavage. Don't Don't look down at my terrible footwear. Just keep it all up here and then the top half. I'll be fine. Yeah, but, but I got there. And I really, we you know, we played three sets and I really spent the first two sets thinking that I was gonna take Like I was on stage thinking, this was not a great idea, I maybe shouldn't have done this. And I'd had an episiotomy. So I was still healing from stitches, so I couldn't use it. Also, you know, sitting was actually really uncomfortable. So everyone was going to want to steal. I'm like, no, no, no steal, that's worse. So I've just kind of, you know, trying not to, like, cling on to the mic stand for the first few seconds. But, you know, Felix was great. And the staff were great. It was a place that we we love we play there a long time. And so everybody just welcomed us back with open arms are so happy to see us, you know, even six months since we'd been there, because of COVID. And the audience was amazing. Like the audience were so ready for live entertainment to after COVID. So actually, the third set, good. The third set was better, and it was kind of, okay, well, this is the power of music that, but oh, yeah, I was in like the fall on adult diaper for that show. Now, when I look at it, I'm like, that was kind of a terrible idea. You know, and I can't believe that all of you guys, let me do you know, and my husband is just like, oh, yeah, like, I'm absolutely not going to tell you that you're crazy person. You know, you were doing it. So you did it. Suzanne Kohlberg Australian writer, and coach, my mum never had friends. She never had hobbies. I don't want to say she was just a mom. That sounds horrible. I remember looking at her. And I was thinking, I don't want to become a mom, like, honestly, your wife kind of ends, you don't have anything. And it was interesting. I met my husband, when I was 18. When we got married when I was like 22. And we were never sure on the kids thing. I could be really honest. Like, I love my kids and everything. But we weren't sure. And then we decided we wait till I was 28. And then we would decide. So we had, you know, by the time I was 2810 years together. And then we were like, Okay, we have kids got pregnant the first month, I had a very lucky journey in that respect. But it was kind of like, I remember when we got the positive pregnancy test, he was over the moon. And I was just sitting there kind of like, whoa, because I didn't think I do is like this is what we wanted. And I was like, yes, but like there was a little bit of mourning there. And then I was like, I don't have to be the mum that my mom was Judy Richards, Australian mixed media artist. When when you're a mum of three young children, there's plenty it isn't out there. That you stress yourself out, because your house doesn't move a certain way. Don't worry about it. Don't let the things of other people's things get to you. I don't judge people by their homes. If I want to be friends with someone, and things get on top of them. My CDs now and visit them for them don't make people because that what happens is then you stop wanting people to come to your house. Because you put yourself in a box and you go, Oh, if that's what people think I don't want them to come and visit you. I'm not good enough to have people into my mind. Yeah, that's right. And it's not this not a nice feeling to have. Leah Franklin, Australian plant based chef and entrepreneur member having a discussion on the humanities floor at Grant High School in year 10. And you know, you're all standing around on What's everyone doing, and you're picking your subjects and all that. And I didn't realize it was going to be such an embarrassing topic. But everyone was saying, oh, you know, what are you going to do and someone was going to be a teacher and someone was going to be a pharmacist and you did it at air and, and I set out and it came around to me and I said, I just want to be a mom. And like it was just this deathly quiet because even then, it was an unusual thing for someone in year 10 To say they wanted to just be a mum. And it was just, you know, air quotes again. Yeah, just be a man. And they said, oh, and I said yeah, I can like I just want to have the house with the fence in the whole thing. And it's it's truly all I saw for myself. Khalifa Holland, Australian entrepreneur and business owner. I've always loved working in what I do. But I made that I always knew my mom was very much there for us like even though we had coffee shops and that my mom was a sort of person. Get off the bus. We had a massive drive thru on a farm. Don't be riding with get inside and nominate harmala When somebody called me up before us, so I knew that if I was able to I wanted to have that fortune. Rachel Lawson waiver us photographer and artist educator. I thought when I didn't see people like me in TV, or movies or magazines or catalogs I didn't think that, that the problem was them and representation, I thought that the problem was me. And if I could just make myself thinner and different, then I deserved to be represented. And, like, That's bullshit. And so, now that I have like a little bit of a platform, a little bit of a way to make images, a little bit of wit, a way to share those, I'm like, and I had to start, it's one of the reasons I'm, like, pretty passionate about self portraiture, because I wanted people of different sizes, and abilities and bodies to hire me. And I felt like well, I have to start by showing mine. Like, I feel like it's one of those things that especially photographers, if you want to be telling people, like, I want you to feel comfortable in your body, you kind of have to like, walk the walk and prove it a little like they can see through your BS. And so if you haven't really done the work, to love and accept yourself, the best thing I can do is model that. And then when I show up, I kind of show up and I give people permission to be like, I get to do this to Jillian Lauren, us best selling author and journalist, I think it's important that your kids see that you're leading a meaningful and engaged life. You know, there's no such thing as just mom. You know, if you're meaningful and engaged, and your primary, you know, your primary activity is taking care of your children, you know, then I think that that would be wonderful and nurturing. And at the same time, that's not me, I was never going to give up my career. Sally refun, Australia's highest selling female author and illustrator. In the years where I did carry a lot more guilt than I allow myself to now, I used to worry a lot about working a lot, because I worked really, really, really hard. And so often I might be away on tour, or I might have to, after dinner, go back into the studio to work or, and would sometimes mean that I've missed some school things or, you know, and then I would feel bad about that. But I think all my working mothers can relate to that. But I guess what I hoped is that what I'm role modeling is that if they have a female partner in the future, there won't be an assumption that it just falls on one person to do the domestic labor or the childcare, that I can model what it's like to be an independent person in the world. I've always been financially independent, I've always, you know, worked really hard to forge a career for myself. And so even though I have sons, not daughters, I think it's as important to role model that for them, as it would be if I had daughters, Liz Morton, US event florist podcaster and entrepreneur, I've learned that my mom wasn't exactly a like well rounded eater, she ate a lot of spirits, a lot of the same things. So I'm finding like, as a mom, myself, that my kids eat everything that I eat. So if I'm showing them that I'm eating broccoli, and like home cooked meals, they're going to want to eat them too. So if I'm not giving them those options, they're not going to eat them. And they're not encouraged to because if I'm drinking soda, my daughter wants to drink soda. If I'm eating a nice polite with turkey bacon, she's gonna love to eat that too. So it's just a matter of introducing them to the right things and setting a good example. Katie Callahan, US singer, songwriter and artist, so I felt like a little bit of like a conflict, you know, in that, like, I'm gonna write about who I am and who I am includes being a woman and includes being a mother and includes like, acknowledging that I have those roles. And I'm not going to pretend like I don't because they're really important parts of my life. They dominate most of my time, you know? But those I feel like a lot of women have to pretend like it's not the case like when they're writing and, and like maybe that's a choice maybe maybe, you know, maybe you know, either other songwriters or like this is my way of reclaiming, you know, an individual identity is to write was to not write about them. Not like them. But because my, my, my, the way that I write and what I write about is so immediate, and often very responsive to where I am in my you know, environment and circumstance then they show up they keep showing up those girls and maybe not like overtly like this is the song about my daughter because only country singers can get away with that but uh, Elise Adlam, Australian philosopher and feminist women and mothers are really put in this catch 22 situation you can't win either way, right? If you stay home, you want to be a stay at home mom, no, you're not doing anything meaningful, you're not producing. And then you're in your, you know, even some people will say, Are your bad feminists, which is completely not true, because feminism should be about women choosing what they do with their lives, as long as they're not harming anyone else. And then on the other hand, you have, if you want to go back to work, you're abandoning your child, your, your role as a woman is to look after your child. So yeah, women really can't win in this bed, Steven, Australian singer and songwriter, everyone needs to be on the same team to make it work. So this year, for example, you know, we've had a baby at the beginning of the year, everyone has needed to be on board for for it to be successful, you know, so, and that's, you know, partner, System Manager, you know, all the people who are involved in the team, to be on board to make that work and to be happy to make that work. And for that to be successful. Alex cynic is an Australian designer and engineer. One of the reasons why we don't you know, know that much is because we don't invest in the research to learn that much. If we researched the lactating breast, like we researched other body functions, the same amount of money, we would know a lot more, there would be much more coherent programs. And, you know, part of this is, you know, we have no problem saying All women should breastfeed, and it's best for baby bla bla bla bla, but then, you know, where are the programs and funding to support having someone there in the hospital who's not run off her feet looking after all the other babies that just got born? Where's the funding to provide you homecare, like we do have these people who are super skilled and really good at what they do, but we don't have funding for them? Are these problems that can feasibly be solved? You know, in science? Are these like problems that can feasibly be solved with just a bit of cash? Yeah. And it's just you haven't chosen to prepare cash in that area? It's a little cynical, but I think it's true. genogram, US clinical social worker, and photographer. Yeah, yeah. So I was kind of, you know, like I said, I had taken a little bit of a break, when my kids were babies, I was kind of trying to juggle, you know, like life as a mom working in a very clinical, you know, very kind of demanding field at the time, I was in private practice work. And, you know, so it was just kind of me servicing these clients that had a lot of needs. And you know, it was a pretty high risk population, I've always worked, treating the field of eating disorders, and you can have a lot of medical complications and a lot of extra things, you kind of have to kind of keep tabs on from a medical perspective. And so I was juggling a lot at that time when my babies were small, and, you know, was just kind of increasingly able to work less and less because of difficulty with finding the right childcare. And, you know, my husband works in a job where he travels a bit and you know, commutes into the city, and sometimes it's gone long hours. And so, you know, it became obvious to me that, I just kind of felt ready to take a little break, I felt ready to kind of be home a little more and not try to do that juggle. So I was, you know, fortunate enough to be able to take a couple years, and step away from that work. And in that time, I was loving being a mom. But I think I kind of had a combination of, you know, just all of the emotions that gets stirred up when you're a mom, and you're raising kids and wanting to capture it and seeing how fast it goes. And then I think I just kind of started to get really curious about, you know, it's like that I think the expression is like the date, the years are short, but the days are long, and I had some like long days at home with two very active young boys. And I just kind of got curious about what I was interested in. That could be a part of that day that could also be kind of meaningful. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll be back on the sixth of January, with a new season of The Art of Being a mum

Dana Stephensen Senior Dancer with the Australian Ballet S2 Ep39 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Dana Stephensen, Senior Artist with the Australian Ballet Company and a mother of 3 children, including twin girls, At the age of three Dana began her dance training with Davidia Lind in jazz, tap, ballet and singing in her hometown of Brisbane. She later trained with Mary Heath and Sandra Ashley before studying with the Queensland Dance School of Excellence in 2001, obtaining her Royal Academy of Dance Solo Seal. Dana joined The Australian Ballet School in 2002. In her graduating year she was seconded to The Australian Ballet to perform in various seasons before joining the company full-time in 2005. She has since enjoyed international tours to Los Angeles, New York, UK, Auckland, Shanghai, Tokyo, and Paris. At the end of 2008, Dana was awarded the Khitercs Hirai Scholarship, which enabled her to gain invaluable experience training with numerous ballet companies in Europe. Dana was promoted to coryphée (a leading dancer in a corps) in 2010 and went on to win the Telstra Ballet Dancer Award later that year. She was promoted to soloist in 2014 and to senior artist in 2018. In 2020 Dana took what she thought was to be her final dance with the company, at that stage 11 weeks pregnant with her twin girls with fiancé Lachy Gillespie AKA the Purple Wiggle . Today Dana shares her story of her experience with post natal depression and anxiety, and how she used her ballet as therapy to aid in her recovery. I also indulge my own curiosity of the ballet world so we talk a lot about ballet! **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and anxiety** Read more about Dana and follow her on instagram Dana would love you to visit : www.cope.com.au www.panda.com.au www.gigetfoundation.org.au Upcoming Australian ballet Shows Read and listen to the part of Swan Lake I was trying to describe Read the Sydney Morning Herald article Read about Wayne McGregor and Dyad 1929 Podcast - instagram / website Music used in this episode is in the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright, and is taken from the ballets Swan Lake, Peter and the Wolf, The Nutcracker and Giselle. Photo by Jeff Busby of Dana performing in the ballet The Sleeping Beauty. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me. I'm thrilled to welcome to the podcast today. Danna Stevenson, Donna is a senior artist with the Australian ballet and a mother of three children including twin girls. At the age of three, Diana began her dance training with de Vidya land in jazz tap ballet and singing in her hometown of Brisbane. She later trained with Mary Heath and Sandra Ashley, before studying with the Queensland dance school of excellence in 2001, obtaining her Royal Academy of Dance solo seal, Donna joined the Australian ballet school in 2002. In her graduating year, she was seconded to the Australian ballet to perform in various seasons before joining the company full time in 2005. Since that time, she's enjoyed international tours to Los Angeles, New York, the UK, Auckland, Shanghai, Tokyo and Paris. At the end of 2008 Danna was awarded the catex HiRISE Scholarship, which enabled her to gain invaluable experience training with numerous ballet companies in Europe. Donna was promoted to Cara fee, a leading dancer in a core and went on to win the Telstra ballet dancer award later that year. She was promoted to soloist in 2014, and two senior artists in 2018. In 2020, Donna took what she thought was to be her final dance with the company at that stage 11 weeks pregnant with her twin girls with her fiance, Locky Gillespie, also known as the purple wiggle. Today Diana shares her story and her experience with postnatal depression and anxiety and how she used her ballet as therapy to aid in her recovery. I also indulge my own curiosity of the ballet world. So we talk a lot about ballet and music. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression and anxiety. The music used in this episode is in the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright, and is taken from the ballets of Swan Lake, Peter in the wolf, the Nutcracker. And Giselle, I hope you enjoy. Welcome, Donna, thank you so much. It's lovely to have you today. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to have a chat. Yeah, for sure. So you're a senior artist, you've obviously been dancing ballet for quite a while. Can you tell us how you first got started? I started dancing when I was three. So my earliest memories really are of me being a dancer, obviously a little bit different to what I am now. But I think it is quite interesting that that's kind of where memory kind of starts to form for children, here and there. And so my earliest memories are of dancing. So I actually started because my sister was dancing at the time. She's two years older than me. And she had started a general jazz class at the local dance school with some school friends. Because she was really shy, really, really shy like hiding behind mom shy. So it was a way of kind of getting her into something social and something to bring her out a bit. Yes, it was parent watching week that week, and I went with mum. And I was sitting at the back and I just started, I just stood up and started joining in the class. And then they were doing cartwheels. And I just was all a part of it, basically. And the teacher came over to mom and said, Oh, I think this little one probably wants to have a go, you know, come around to the little little East class and other day. And I think it just started like that. And then quite quickly, I started the Stanford team. I was there five days a week, and then six days like, by that before I started school, probably a bit more. It was like, more is more. I just danced all the time. I was at school or I dance that was that was how it was. Yeah, right. So it was literally your sister got you into it, which is really cool. My sister got me into singing, like formal singing, like because she joined. And I wanted to do it too. So that's a really cool, so it's your sister older. Now she's younger. And I think that's why I wanted to do it. Because it was like, well, she gets to draw, I should be doing it. Because yeah, I mean, I think it's a little bit ironic because my sister started doing a jazz class. And I started with that. And then I started taking ballet and tap, and then all the different, all the different things. And my sister stuck with that one jazz class a week until maybe she was 10. She would, she would get so worked up before it and we didn't know this until she was older that she would get so sick to her stomach about going to dancing because it was such a big deal for her to have people looking at her. And meanwhile, her little sister was just you know, couldn't get enough of it. Interestingly, Brie my sister Bree, she would have done so well in ballet. Yeah, I was very much metrical one. And then I found ballet to be my path a lot later. Whereas my sister, she would have actually loved ballet. And she says that now I wish I'd just done ballet, not jazz, because that's all out there. And yeah, a bit chunky. Whereas ballet, she's she actually would have loved the discipline. And the, you know, the teacher sets the exercise. And you do that, and it's a bit quieter? Not not so much like, like jazz hands in the spotlight kind of thing. Yeah. So then how did you get into the ballet side of things? Was it just something you were offered? And, and then you sort of just thought, I love this so much. I'm just gonna go with it. Yeah, it's quite interesting, because I think as a child, I am sure this is the case. For most children. I just love dancing. I didn't really, obviously there were the dance styles. But I didn't differentiate between what each one was, I just loved the whole thing. And then once I started doing istead, fits and being on stage and the lights and the feeling of that, and taking on a different character, it was all one in the same. Obviously, there's different elements to each sort of style, but I just loved all of it. So it wasn't until I was a teenager, and every time that musicals would come to Brisbane, I'm from Brisbane. So you know, once he went fame would calm or Chicago or whatever it was, we'd go and but also every time the Australian ballet would come, you know, on the Saturday matinee mum would take me to that. And that was a big event of the year too. So it all just kind of was coinciding, and I had no preference whatsoever, until as a teenager, you do start to need to take a bit more of a structured path if you are going to follow ballet, but my school at the time did video in Dance Center where I went when I was three, she she had never had a ballet dancer. So that needed more ballet training as a teenager because no one had kind of got that fire in their belly exams at the time. So I actually had to find some teachers externally to help me. And then I was an interstate associate with the Australian Ballet School, which is in Melbourne, which is the school that does feed into the Australian ballet company. And so that meant I could come down for a week, every year to do like a winter school. And when they came to Brisbane, we do a master class, but it was still just happening bubbling along. But then the audition came to do for the first level five year which is about 15. At the Australian Ballet School, the senior school is level six, seven and eight. That's like your finishing training. But they're just started a level five and that was half ballet half school. And so I auditioned for that and was very hopeful about getting in and I didn't get in. And I was really really disappointed. And I couldn't have said it at the time. But I think that was a really big catalyst in thinking I obviously really want to do this. It's not happening right now. And I, I think I really, I want that to be happening. So the next year, I went to a school in Brisbane called the Queensland at school of excellence, which was, again, half Valley High School, but a version of that in Brisbane, and auditioned again for the Australian ballet school the next year. Yep. And got in the next year, and then did my three years and then got into the company. Yeah, so yeah, that moment, it's like, the level of disappointment you felt made you sort of realize i, this is how much I want this. This is it's almost like, it's not great that you didn't get in, but it's almost like you needed that to confirm it for you to make you go right, I'm gonna go for this really, this is what I want to do. So I think so it was an probably a strong indication to that I needed to probably blinkers on a little bit. And just focus a bit more on that. Having said that, I was I loved my high school, and I loved my school friends. And I, I think that's something you know, I've always had, I have always kind of needed to have a balanced sort of life. I was never like a Betty bonehead. And I'm still not. But at the same time, I think I needed to probably think, Okay, well, if this is what you want to do, there's a few steps that need to be taken. And so I took those steps and worked really hard and I was very lucky to get in that next time. So then what what sort of direction did you Korea take from then after that, getting in there. So they strain bicycles, three years and then. So your final year, you start to do a lot more performing. And very fortunately, at the time, the company who's in the same building, so it's really special at the school, because you can't just walk down the corridor, and like, put your little face at the windows, and you see the company dancing and rehearsing and all your idols and like it's, you know, coming from Brisbane, and coming down into this world. It was so scary, overwhelming, amazing, exciting, just all of those things. And then to, to think and dream about getting to the other end of the corridor and getting into those company rooms one day. But yeah, at the time, when I was in my last year at the school, that company had, we're doing lots of different seasons, but there was quite a few injuries. So they needed some extra dancers. And at that time, they often seconded dancers from the school to go join that company. So they had a couple of us learn a particular ballet symphony and see, and then the next night I was on, basically, Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was like a baptism of fire. But at the same time, I feel like looking back at that age, you're so ready. And that's what you're training for. And obviously, that's an amazing opportunity. And then that opportunity turned into a longer opportunity. I danced with the company for almost all their seasons that year. And so I was very lucky to have the, the staff and obviously the artistic director at the time, David McAllister, he could see me across a whole year almost, as opposed to going in one day for an audition somewhere, they have no idea who you are, where you've come from any story. And you have to somehow impress someone in in a glimpse or in a half an hour class, then, you know, to this day, I still find that hard when people come into cars valets, I'm like, I don't even know what you want to see like, and that's fine. By this point. You're just like, I need this is what I've got. And if you like it, great. And if you don't, all right, then that's kind of the nature of the industry. There's still something that I I find quite challenging. But like I said, at that at that time of, you know, trying to get my first job, I was very fortunate to have a long audition process. And not for a second though, did I think I would get a job the following year, but then at the end of the year, when they gave contracts out, they gave two female contracts and two male contracts and I was one of the females. That was lucky enough Did you get a job with the company then? Yeah, right. So then that meant you're part of that, that room that you've been sort of peeking in and looking out for those years, that would have been incredible. It really is. It's, you know, there's so much looking up to in ballet, you know, you watch videos in such a different world now, with the internet and YouTube, but back in the day, you'd have back in the day. But so, but no, I would watch the same videos at the Australian ballet company every Saturday over and over, and over, and I knew everything they did inside out. And then he walked down once a move to Melbourne. And then he walked down the corridor and that person, right there real quick. So, yeah, it's, I think it's a really lovely thing. And there's substitution traditions in ballet that really need to move forwards. But there's certain traditions that are really lovely, like when you're doing the company, and there's a lot of respect, obviously, for the principles. And if they don't have a passport, and you're absolutely a first year, you do not take a spot at the bar. And some of those things seem a bit archaic. But I also think in our, our industry and our career, those people have worked to where they've got to, and they who we look to and the epitome of that. And I actually loved that. Yeah, it's like that level of respect that you can show someone's in that, like, we were talking before about being called a ballerina. That's a title that you've earned. And, you know, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's, I guess all dancers feel differently about that. And that's a personal preference. But I don't feel that comfortable when people refer to me as a ballerina, because I'm not that, in my mind. I'm, for many reasons, I'm not that I'm a bit left field as a ballerina, but also, they're the people I look up to. They're the people who have earned that title as ballerinas of the company. And I've done a lot of amazing work, and I'm so proud of where I'm at, and the rain. COVID chi is something beyond my wildest dreams. But yeah, I even in like, you know, the smallest context when you know, even like, when a little girl calls me a ballerina like, Oh, I'm not quite I'm sorry. No, okay. Yeah, in my by myself, like, oh, that's, that's, that's those people. That's not me. Yeah, yeah, I can I just say that. It's, yeah, I think, like you said, there's probably a lot of things that can change. But I think there's nothing wrong with respecting people like you, like you the story that you've just outlined the amount of work that's gone in, you know, and there's people you know, that's what they do, they dedicate their entire life to their art. So I think there's, you know, there's a time and space for like, you know, some tradition, respect Yeah. Just while we're talking about that, I'll just mention quickly, my I went to school with two girls who went on to become dancers, dances with different ballets. I'm not sure if you know, Rachel Walsh, or if you've heard of Rachel, she was happy to fall. Yeah, we went through school together, up to I think she left you 10 might have been a last year in that Gambia. And then she went off to do her thing, which she's done, amazingly. And we've been chatting a bit. So we're organizing that she'll come on the show in the future, which is really cool. And another girl called, she's Lisa Robinson, and she went to Canada, I think, to do her dance, he or she ended up in Canada. She's there now. But it was just amazing that at that time, when you're when you're teenagers, you have no idea what these girls are doing what they're going through, you just go Oh, yeah, they're dead. They're dancing, you know, but they're, like you've described your whole world you switched on, that's your focus. And everything involved in that too. Like your, your way you eat, I suppose and the way you look after your body and the exercises you do and the training that you do. And here we are just you know, teenagers worrying about, you know, what the boys are up to or you know, it's just all different, different world. Like that's it. That's a really interesting point because I I think ballet dancers have to make certain decisions much earlier. You know, it would it's, it's comparable with elite athletes, but they have to make quite adult is an adult grown up decisions about what they'd like to do how they'd like to achieve it. But at quite a young age, I moved to Melbourne, I was 16. But I know there's other kids, I'd say, Yeah, you know, at 1415. And they might be in the boarding house or, you know, different, different home setups. And I can't comment on anyone else's experience, obviously. But you look back and you think, oh, that's, that's actually a massive deal. But at the time, and this is, this is the sort of people we are, who are who are drawn to what, to who are drawn to doing what this what we do, you have to be so driven, and dedicated, and focused, single minded focus and determined, resilient, they're all the skills that you're building up in your teenage years, which is not often I'd say, traditionally, the years you're building up those things. Oh, and, you know, staying open to things and so you, you did, probably there's a sense of isolation in that. I mean, I had great school friends around me who they were just like Danna does ballet. And that's really great. I know, other people have had different experiences by being so different. Obviously, a lot of men in the company, I've had lots of bullying experiences, I got a little bit about how small I was, and how, how focused I was, I guess, but I had really good people around me and I have a really amazing family who's not involved in ballet at all, really grounded. And it was all a bit of a new experience for me. And I felt a bit protected in that honestly. But yeah, it is it is. It feels like you're a bit ahead in many ways, at that age, because you have to be, but that's what prepares you for the career you're about to have. And to be able to handle the pressure that you have to at really quite a young age. Would you say, Don't put words in your mouth, but I've never been in the ballet world. Is it? Like I don't want to say cutthroat but is it a hugely intense? Like you talked about the having to audition? Like is there so much pressure to keep yourself at a certain level or and you're competing with other people all the time? Or if I got that really not on the mark? No, you're pretty spot on. What's probably a bit less expected is that it's it's a lot more nuanced than that in terms of it is cutthroat and it's competitive. And in a company, and I've been in a company for 18 years now, which I can't believe I still feel like I'm 16 It's a bit like that, I feel like you just keep you a little bit young somehow, in some way. But anyway, I do. It's a really interesting competitiveness. Because essentially, you're vying for the same roles all the time. And you're Korea is in is ideally solely in your hands and your work and the effort you're putting in and energy and your commitment, and your training, your resilience and your reliability. There's so many skills that are in your control. But there's also a really big one, which is someone else's opinion, and that at the end of the day, sometimes trumps everything. And I think a good thing to remember with that, though, is that across your career, you will be on both sides of that, you'll be on the side where someone comes in and just thinks you're the bee's knees. And they'll then there's the times that you're on the other side of that, which is someone who's not interested in you at all. And so everyone has their moments either side. And you know, you might have a couple of bad years where you feel like nothing's going your way. And trying to stay motivated in that time and internally driven and internally motivated, is very challenging. And I think that again, we move into this career quite young, I was performing at 17 with the National Ballet Company, which you know, there were younger people than that even so, especially young, but at that age, you're dealing with quite a lot of pressure and competitiveness. And you know, I've got children and you know, what would you want to tell your children You're perfect as you are, you know, just go out there and do a good job. Just work hard, and that's the most important thing. How do you tell someone or they just don't want Like, how you look? Yeah, like, that's just always, you know, obviously, in ballet, there's, you know, a lot of scope to talk about body types and body aesthetics. And the Australian ballet is really healthy in terms of that. There's, we all look really different. There's lots of different heights, and different body styles and different ways of moving, which ultimately, is the most important thing. But there is a lot of versatility in our company now. But sometimes it really is, they don't like how you look, or how you can't, which is the way you personally express yourself. So it's pretty heart wrenching sometimes because they're like how someone else does it more. And some, sometimes just thinking about almost as clearly as as brutal as it is, is the best way. Like, that's how they're doing it. I'm doing this over here. And as you get older, and more experienced, and I think weed life experience, obviously kind of boosting you. On all sides, you realize that this is all you have is what you are and what you bring. And if it's not your turn right now, it might be your turn next month. Yeah, I'm, that is such a incredible way of looking at things like that. It's so pragmatic. It's just an I personally, it took me a long time to get to that point with music, because it's, it's the same thing people like what you're doing or you don't, and it's you, you're putting yourself out there. And I got to a point. Like I used to do a Stanford to for singing. And one year I just thought, why am I doing this, I'm letting one person's opinion, decide how I feel about myself. And I just thought, I'm not doing this anymore. I don't, I don't want to feel like this. And I just stopped doing it. And then I can sort of like put myself up for different awards or put things online. And I feel like, if it's not my turn, it's someone else's turn. And that's they need that right now in their life. And it's become a really great way of me being able to just go, Oh, that's good, that's nice and not be worried about stuff anymore. Which took a long time, like, I'm nearly 44. So it's like, it's a thing that you have to go through, I think because no one can sit you down and say, right, this is how you should feel about failure. I think it's something you have to sort of work through yourself. But I love that I really love that the way I've described that. I think experience, you need experience on both sides of that coin. And you know, another thing in the company, you join the company, and we all have, we all have a certain level of talent that makes us ballet dancers. And then beyond that we all have our unique talents. And some of us, I'm a really good jumper, for example, because of how I'm built and I'm really athletic. But my whole life my whole career, I've wished I've looked like the other girls who are so beautiful and so elegant. And just total ballerinas and I have lots of energy, and it serves me really well sometimes. And other times I hold over a lot. I've just come to embrace and everyone's like Dan is on the floor again. Because I've gone through obviously different phases with what I've felt like on my own failures or weaknesses. Yeah. And of course, as a younger dancer, there is something so much about your work ethic. If I just work hard enough, I can change that. And there is merit to that, about working on our weaknesses, but ultimately, focusing on our strengths and amplifying them actually, is so much more. I don't know, it's you're so much more yourself, if that's what you're focusing on what you're putting your attention to. I spent, you know, my early years in the company were quite tricky. And I was having battles with, with what eventually became Hashimotos thyroiditis. So thyroid disease, which was undiagnosed for a long time. Yeah, and my body's a lot and being a professional ballet dancer and having a really low it's an autoimmune disease. But yeah, it's, it was really challenging. And so I was finding it very hard to have confidence in anything about myself and then when it came to my dancing, I was still in that mindset of if I could just make my legs look nicer if I you know, I've got really strong feet but they're not aesthetically beautiful like a lot of the other girls like I don't know, how about it, it's a really honor. Some other people probably say that to which I say hats off to you. But yeah, I just if I could just make that better. Yeah, my career will be better. But ultimately, it's it's not it's your career is going to be what it is. And they're, they're in a ballet camp, there is always room for a dancer like me. And that took time and maturity to realize there is someone has to be the person jumping, someone has to be the one moving fast. I'm a bit messy. And I'm always working on my footwork and trying to clean things up. But someone has to do that. And once I felt confident in that, that was something I could do that those other girls were like, how do you do that? I was like, I don't know, I just get in the air man, like, Oh, I'd love to be able to do that. I'd love to be able to stand still like you is a place that can be a place for everyone. And sometimes when it comes to casting things swing your way. And other times, they don't you realize your opportunities out there, you make the most of them. And then when you can see maybe there, what's tricky in the company, there might be a season you're not in very much, or there's not a lot of work for you. But you never know what's coming up next. And you know, often we do know what's coming up, but you never know what your next opportunity might be. So if you drop the ball, and think, Oh, this is my, this is my season where it's a bit average, or I'll just won't bother. Ya know what Julie, you might miss next because you're not ready. And that's these are the things that I have no doubt, I can say 100% have have created the opportunities that have actually made me and made my career not because, you know, I was built a certain way, being in the right place at the right time has has been very good to me. Yeah, and that you're right. It's like, it's you unless you're, unless you're ready for that opportunity when it comes? Well, actually, this person sort of slackened off a bit this year, because, you know, they didn't get so many roles. And we can see that. So we'll go to the next person, you know, so yeah, you've got to, you've always got to be motivated and still working and which would be intensely draining. Like it sounds like, you know, it's a full on life. Like you're just, I mean, obviously, lots of people do it. So it's sustainable. But from my point of view, someone who's not a dancer at all, and not highly motivated. It really it is and again, as a young student, you don't, it's what you want to do. It's your passion, it's your drive, you love it, you can't imagine not doing it. And you're willing to give up almost anything to do it. And it's so enjoyable. Like, I love dancing. I know last night I was on stage, and my old nanny actually was watching and she hadn't seen me dance after all these years. And she said, Oh, gosh, it just looks so much fun. And I said to her, I was like, I just have a stupid amount of fun when I'm on stage. And I know I've got my little kids at home, and I hope they're asleep and they ate them. And then I just had this. I know it's not a guilt, like guilty pleasure. I just, it's just so fun. Like, and I'm just lucky, I still enjoy what I do so much. But it is a lifestyle. It's it's not. It's not it's not a job for us. And I think, again, I can't speak for everyone else. But if it becomes a job, I don't think it's right anymore. Because it is so much more than that. And you have to put so much more into it. And in terms of just your hours, you know, we work really long hours, unusual hours. We rehearse in the days. We train every day, six days a week. We have Sundays off but we try and live every morning. We rehearse every day. We perform at night, but we don't just go in for the show at night. We train in the morning, rehearse show, two shows Wednesday two shows that day. 200 shows a year. It's yeah, it's the Australian ballet is one of if not the top amount of you know shows per year in terms of ballet companies. Yeah. Which takes a certain amount of resilience and managing your body and your mind over that time becomes a really important skill that you learn. It takes years to learn how to manage that. Yep, yeah. Can I help? Sorry, we were really doing a lot of talking about your ballet, which is dope, we will get to your family, it's okay. I'm just so honored to be able to speak to you. And I really want to squeeze everything out that I can because it's just really exciting. Like I said, my exposure to ballet, like with the girls that I grew up with, it was it was a world that I knew nothing about. I loved it. And I love watching ballet, it's just blows my mind how graceful and incredible it is. So I just want to ask you lots of things. I'm more than happy. You know, it's a lot of people find it quite a you know, it is this mysterious kind of world. And I'm, I'm always wanting to encourage people to ask questions. And it's, you know, there's obviously that version of ballet people often think about in their heads. And often it's a bit different to that. Or then there's the other one, which is like, Oh, is it like Black Swan? And it's like, well, there's little bits that are absolutely true. I'll be the first to tell you that it's not quite like that. But I think it's lovely that people are interested in in what we do. It's always a lovely thing. Awesome. Well, that's good. You can indulge me a bit longer than Absolutely. All right. So I'd like to ask you what your favorite roles have been that you've played and why. And I didn't even I didn't even give you a heads up. I was gonna ask you this. Sorry. No, that's, that's really I like being on the spot. Oh, that's really tricky. Because I'm, I mean, I've been so lucky. fortunate to have had such a wide range of roles and opportunities. Yeah, and across, you know, the starting Valley does a lot of strict classical ballet performances, you know, your swan lakes, you're not crackers does owls, kind of structurally classical ballet, Sleeping Beauty. And then we do a lot of contemporary modern work. And usually the year it's kind of somewhat, the balance is somewhat split. And I have had opportunities in kind of both sections of those repertoire groups. And it's kind of like when I was younger when people said, oh, did you like jazz or ballet? And I just liked it all. Yeah, it's the same thing. In what I do. Now, I just love it all. There's not one that's better than the other. And even as I get older, often people lean one way or the other. And I just, I just love it all, because I love dancing. And they all bring different challenges. I will say though, often certain roles at certain times in your career do seem to feel like they mean, even more. The one of my favorite, like all time, classical roles was Giselle. And I was very lucky I, I was able to dance the title role of Giselle, which I would never normally be casting because there's so many other girls who are so beautiful at it. And that's just the nature of it. Sometimes you don't get it, you know, you might get a go of all those girls weren't so good. But also, you know, stylistically, you know, some people might not cast me in that role, but it came out it came about because it was the regional tour of the Australian ballet goes out. And that year on I had my son Jasper a few months earlier. And I was talking with David McAllister, my director at the time about coming back and the the main company, we're actually going to London on tour then. And I was like, not up for that. Yeah. Actually, this is really great opportunity, if you would like the regional tour is taking out Giselle, and I think you'd make a really lovely Giselle, would you like to do it and this is like the Holy Grail of ballet. And I'm like, How can anyone say no like, like coming back after maternity leave? You know, talk about like not working your way up. It's like, it's the most incredible ballet role. It's the romantic ballet period. So it's not, you know, it's your long kind of soft tutus. Not your sticky outy. tutus. Yeah. And it's it's a beautiful ballet about this young peasant girl who falls in love. And then she realizes that he's actually a royal and he's engaged to someone else. And she has a weak heart anyway, and her she basically, cat, you know, goes into such a state and her heart gives way and she, she dies. And then the second act is the ethereal, otherworldly spirit world. And so she is one of the willies. They're called. And this beautiful quarter ballet scene, that's the big roof of the company, create this amazing atmosphere. They're like ghosts. And so Albrecht, who was the man she fell in love with comes to find her grave and her spirit. And she basically saves him because the Queen Miyata, Queen of the willies. So queen of all of these, you know, these girls who were jilted before their wedding days, they dance the man to death, anyone who dares enters the forest, you know, after dark, and Giselle with all her compassion and forgiveness dances until sunrise with our breaks this love of hers to save him. And, you know, it's a role that is so intricate, in terms of its dancing, but more than anything, just the story is so, so beautiful to tell, and you can really make your own mark on it. And to cut back after having a baby at that point, that role was so, so perfect and cathartic for me to dive into. Because there was just a whole new level of me that was able to have that absolute 100% all in love, compassion, forgiveness, I'll do anything for you know, that you have to have a child, that's just, you know, I don't even know how it comes out. But it's just a part of you. And I had this beautiful art form this beautiful music, this atmosphere and to just, you know, pour that all into so the timing of that roll, that roll in itself is is a gift to any ballet dancer or ballerina. Yeah, it's a real ballerina role. And, you know, I haven't had a lot of those ballerina moments, I could say, that might have been my one. But it was the timing of that, particularly that was so special in every single show. It's not about you know, if you got all your face positions, or if your turns were perfect. It's about, you know, your connection with your partner the atmosphere you create, and, and every show, I walked away just so happy and proud. And so touched and humbled by being able to do that at that time. You know, and I was like camping before the show. Yeah. And, you know, always bath in Jasper and then would rush to the theater and go into this other world. But that whole time did have this really special magic. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I will assume you. You've actually answered a question that I was going to ask you later about, because there's so much acting involved in your dancing. I think I think a lot of people realize that, that that's such a massive part of what you do. The way that you'd approach a role changed after you became a mom and you've just answered that without even asking it. It's just Yeah, I love I really think, again, that's a craft that you you have to learn across your years. You know, you come to as a young dancer and you're you're dancing and you know, you might do a bit of like, acting in terms of the ballets you're putting on it students, but that is a craft that you you learn and you know, I've been so fortunate that I've grown up in the company watching these incredible ballerinas and several of them were became mothers while they were still dancing, and I could see that transformation. I don't know how well they've had babies, but just the depth that the expression, the naturalness, the freedom, like there's so many things that come out of that, but you know, you sit there and you watch all those full rehearsals for the whole company in a room, running all these big ballets. And you you watch over the years how many We'll do those things. And when you get a chance to be able to wish I had at that point in time to put all of that in to a role. That was, yeah, such a magical time. Obviously, then there's valleys that don't have a story. And so, in terms of, you know, you're not acting per se, but you might, you know, there's obviously always envision in your mind that you're thinking of, or, you know, a vision the choreographer wants you to create, or an energy or a feeling or something in those kinds of contemporary works. And, you know, conversely, that's what I also enjoy about the contemporary repertoire that we, you know, we perform, is those kind of really physical, the expression is the physicality and the physical physicality almost has a persona, and you have a persona, when you're, you're dancing that even if there's not a story, yeah, that's your input, you embody those emotions or whatever the you're trying to get out. Yeah, yeah. And often, you know, obviously, ballet. For me anyway, the music is, it's the marriage of the ballet and the music, it's, that's when it comes to get it that alchemy, that's, that's what's, you know, goes across that, you know, the fault lines, that's what the audience takes on that their experience is that, you know, Alchemy that's happening in front of them, and that can be equally as powerful. In a contemporary work, I was very lucky I, when a choreographer call Wayne McGregor came out from the UK. He's a very, very renowned choreographer. And at the time, he just started as a resident choreographer at the Royal Ballet. So he was a contemporary choreographer, and then he started to move to the ballet space of it. And then not long after lots of ballet companies across the world, we're grabbing him to, like get a work by Wayne. Yeah, we were quite early in the piece, really, at that sort of time, we're able to, somehow now became, and he created a work called diet 1929 here, and that was a time he came into the room to obviously cast the ballet, we're in class, and I was quite young at the time, or maybe 24 or something, and, and I knew his work, I was like, so cool to be here. But you know, like, how do you how do you get in it? Yeah, you standing there doing fundraising? Like what can you see in my Tonberry, that's not very good, because I'm not very good at them still, that might show you that I or so want to be in your way. Anyway, really, you know, often ballets a cast from the hierarchy. So from the top of the company down, I was still in the quarterback at the time, which is, you know, the big ensemble down the bottom. But not everyone cast like that he came in, and he looked at the whole company as a whole. And it didn't matter where you were. Yeah, I think, anyway, very fortunately, got cast and his ballet, and then that ballet across my time. You know, that was such a, you know, working with him at that time was like groundbreaking for all of us. We've never worked with someone like this. He's so fast. He's so smart. He is. He does a lot of work with brain science and how he puts that into, you know, ballet and art a lot of people wouldn't even understand but for him, like, that's how he creates it. You watch his brain work. And you think, wow, I just like, you just see all the neurons firing. It was a really exciting time. It felt very, like we're in the moment cutting edge. And I, I was very fortunate to learn a spot in that. And so I was performing that and then across my career, every time we've done that ballot, then moved on to a different spot. Yeah, right. So for different spots in that valley, you know, we took it to New York. And you know, I did a different spot in that. And so I've kind of grown up in that valley. So that's one of my favorite contemporary pieces. Yeah, that's been my journey as well in terms of, I stepped up into, you know, different roles. And then my last show before I had my twin girls actually was in that valley in a white leotard, which is absolutely what you want to be in when you're pregnant with twins at 11 weeks. It's all it actually has been saying in about a month. So Valley mountains that you just, you cannot time it any better. But you are usually when you're, you know, early, you know, first trimester dancing, if you're pregnant, you have to be in a flesh leotard or while you're tired because it always happens like that. Nobody's like a free free dress or like something coming it's just always happens to fall in the most exposing of all so yeah, but same time that I knew that those were my last shows and I actually thought they were my last shows ever. And so to for it to be in that work. That particular work was really special to me, and I've done Lots of contemporary works. And they're all fantastic too. And they could so easily be my favorites. Yeah, but the timing again and what that whole valley and journey meant that yeah, that's a really special suspicion yeah I don't want to talk too much more about your ballet. I do want to, but I'm gonna make myself stop. But you've mentioned the music. And it's like, I absolutely that is. I don't want to say it's my favorite part of ballet because of course, the dancing is pretty awesome. But like you said, the way that it's all wrapped up together, and the costuming and everything and my favorite bit ever was in Swan Lake when because, you know, you've got that theme that dad did it, it did. I don't know what any of this is called. So just go with me here. When it turns when it changes at the end. And it's goes from being in a minor key tool, major key. And it's just it gives you goosebumps, it's like it just taught it tells you the story through the music, they don't even have to tell you what's happened to this character, this transformation. It's like you just hear in the music. And it's just that moment, every time I hear it, I just go Oh, survive. And to rely, you could just imagine how you How could you contain yourself when you're actually onstage doing that, like I always think like, it could just be like envelopes in it, you're just your whole body and your senses, it just be like charged, it'd be amazing. It's such a full body experience, I think and we are so used to that. And so it did that. And it's an incredible feeling, you know, some of the, the scores we dance to and, you know, some scores, you know, like the the big Tchaikovsky's or, you know, it's, you've heard them over and over. And I bet you've rehearsed. And I went and stopped going back. I can't stop, go back. You know, you've heard them cut up many times, you're often counting certain things. You know, the ballet we're dancing at the moment is Anna Karenina, and the score was made for this particular production. So it also marries so perfectly. Yeah. And, you know, it's a really tragic story, obviously. And there's some absolutely just heartbreaking musical moments that are just matched so beautifully with what's happening on stage. That, you know, we've seen it so many times. And it still it gives me goosebumps, and it still feels like ah, this is just like so. Yeah, it's just, I don't know, it's yeah, it's such a privilege, you know, to, to watch people in that moment or to be in that moment. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. It's beautiful. I love it all right, let's talk about your children. You've mentioned them briefly in passing. Tell us a little bit more about your family. I have three children, which still doesn't seem real when I say that to me. I'm not doing I do I do. Just make sure. I don't mean to discount the massiveness of that and I'm, I'm so fortunate to have been lucky enough to have three beautiful children. But I do still feel quite I don't know, I guess each day I'm just like treading water. So sometimes I don't stop to like acknowledge. Yeah, I've got three beautiful children. Jasper, my son is six. And he has grown up around the valley, which is a really unique, you know, he hasn't been here every every second but he's grown up around it. And He's toured with me and I went back to dancing after I had him dancing Giselle in that regional tour when he was nine months old. So he came out on the road with me and my mom and my mom has been like the biggest To support save, You're everything to me for my whole career. I mean, she was the one who took me to every dance class. And she is not a ballet mom at all. She doesn't know one step from the other. But she has just been there every moment. And so he's been very lucky to travel a little bit with me too, but he has a real appreciation for it. But yes, I have twin girls, Lulu, and Lottie, who are 18 months old now or a few days time. So they're little, very cheeky, very funny. little toddlers at the moment, were in that sweet stage before the that yes, I was. There's no twins in our family. And that came as a bit of a shock. Yeah. And, you know, I, this is something I think this is another part of the ballet world that, you know, I don't think he's really, I guess, thought about talked about, you know, obviously a woman's choice to have children when she has them. How that works with her career is a very, very personal choice. And I absolutely respect that people don't talk about it. But I think it's really interesting. And it's probably very similar for elite athletes. But again, I can just talk about the ballet experience. You know, artistically, you are, finally, after so many years of training, learning the craft, performing, you know, working, just optimizing, you get to your 30s, artistically, you're finally coming into your straps, you're not even there yet, probably you're just coming into your straps, you're coming into that zone, where it all starts to be cohesive and make sense. And you can feel that you can trust yourself, you can go for it. And that's also the years where you need to start about a family. And if you'd like to have one how that might work. And I think that is quite a battle for the dancers in that kind of part of their career, because how can you How could you possibly choose to stop? And then there's always thinking, Oh, what's it going to be like, on the other side, I'll lose a year I've got really good, you know, flow I've got, you know, you might be in a really good trajectory, you know, not just a ranking sort of thing. But just like with the roles, you're getting the impetus, the momentum, you're building your reputation, but just like how you feel in yourself, and then to then I'm just going to stop that now. And just take, firstly, nine months to have a baby. And I'm talking very pragmatically here. I know, this is obviously, you know, there's a whole lot more to it. But I'm just like to say it kind of nine months for that and then getting back into into it. How will that work? Who's my where's the support system? How would it work? It's I think it's a really daunting prospect. And you know, there's always like, Oh, but there's that ballet coming up next year. I've always wanted to do that. We can't dance till we're 60. It's not a career that lasts forever. So, yeah, I feel like you entered. I was lucky. I had Jasper when I was 30. And I was ready, then I was ready to stop. I was ready for it to not be about me. And I left it quite open in that sense. But yeah, I just think and you know, that's, you know, on the flip side, it's such a beautiful thing, that becoming a mum only makes your ballet career so much richer and so much more beautiful. And, you know, you can't know that beforehand. You see that in other people? But yeah, yeah. Also, then, you know, not that long after you might be thinking about retirement, I just think there's like this even like five year window, that's hyper pressure about what choices you're making, when you're making them. He's now a good time. If I'm, if I step away now, to do this, all those other girls are gonna get my impetus. And then when I come back when it's my place, it's, you know, but fortunately, I feel like when I chose to have my children, and when I, when I chose to have, you know, to say, Okay, I think I think I'm happy with what I've achieved here now, and I'd like to look at having another child in this case to that one. I was happy with what I'd achieved and it was too important. For me, it wasn't about what ballet was coming up. It was. It wasn't about that it was I would love the opportunity to have a child, another child and obviously we'd lucky to and so that trumps everything and very fortunately, we're lucky to have him At a beautiful girls. And we're a family of five. I love that so when you when you did have Jasper, did you think that was the end? And you were happy with that? Or were you still thinking I can come back? You know, I've got the support of my mom, I can, I can do this. And I could, I was very lucky that I'd seen women in the company go before me. And quite a lot of them honestly, because David McAllister, the director at the time, really pioneered the maternity leave and process of the Australian ballet, which is, again a front runner of worldwide standards, I could see that it was possible. I was encouraged by that. Again, they were the ballerinas as the company, I was a soloist at the time, so I wasn't on the same level as them. But also like an by level, I also mean, as a principal dancer, as principal artists, you are mostly not dancing every night and and show because you have your two or three Shows a week. This is not every week, but let's just change your Time Season. They're on all the time. But generally speaking, they have their specific shows, and you know, perhaps a bit more saying what they're doing and their timings. When you're Junior in the company, you don't you're in the biggest scene. So you're there rehearsing in the bigger scenes every day that need more time, you're not just rehearsing you and your partner, or can we do that at one today, because I've got to go or you're kind of at the mercy of the group. And then you're at the mercy of all the shows. So it's not about I'll be in the theater, like three nights a week, it's like, I'll be there six nights a week, like every week. So I had worked to a point where I'd got I was really happy with what I achieved. And again, at that point, I had a very clear mind that having a child was the most important thing. And if that was it, I was very open ended, you know if something if he was, you know, sick as a baby, or if I didn't feel like it felt right for me anymore. I would have stopped dancing. I just left it quite open. So a few months after he was born, I started doing some Pilates. And I thought now I've still got it in me and even though we don't have family in Melbourne, I was mum was able to talk with me. So I gave it a go. And then after when I knew I was pregnant with the girls I I then knew like at that first scan appointment, when I saw there was two, and I gasped he started crying. No. I'll never forget that moment. It was just it was such a indescribable, like, so many feelings. Not instantly, but I thought you know what, I think this is life telling me that this is probably time, it's time to enjoy the bit you've got left. And I was just hoping to get to that particular season that I was talking about previously to get to do that ballet died 1929. Yep. Because I thought that was a beautiful full circle. I was really sick and tired. Like really sick with the girls being pregnant with them. So I didn't know if I'd actually be able to make it to that point. But I just tried. Just gave myself each day at a time and I was able to get through those shows before COVID shut us down anyway. So I was able to do those shows. And then and thought they were my last. Yeah, yeah. I want to ask you, you've mentioned feeling sick with the girls. What's it like? Being like dancing when you are pregnant? Like do the does the company sort of make allowances? Do they? Do you have like special things that you're not allowed to do like that? How does it sort of work? Yeah, well, it is quite different for everyone. Obviously, you're not you know, you're not able to sit at your desk and hide away a bit and you know, discreetly go to the bathroom. If you're feeling a bit nauseous and I look it's a very vulnerable time for any woman and I it doesn't matter how many times you've been pregnant what the circumstances are. I think every woman feels very vulnerable until you feel like the pregnancy is safely on its way so I think you That's really tricky to balance with the fact that it's a very public public profession, you're in a leotard. People can look at you and you're not feeling great. You sense that other people can tell that they're still many, many weeks to go before you're in the clear, or you feel comfortable to tell your boss or other dancers. So it's actually a really yucky time. Irrespective if you're tired or sick. It's a very it feels really confronting and both pregnancies I felt really. Yeah, not. I don't enjoy that, you know, it's my first pregnancy with Jasper, I sprained my ankle ankle at seven weeks. And I think that was just a blessing, because I wasn't about maybe nine weeks, and I wasn't coping with just, like, feeling like it was so obvious, but you've got a long time to go, you've got to pretend you're still able to do everything, obviously, at any point you can, you can speak to staff, and they'll absolutely, you know, just keep like, keep that in mind. And, yeah, obviously, that that level of duty of care is absolutely there. But you know, as as a woman, you don't feel comfortable. Just you know, saying I'm eight weeks pregnant, you know, there's still four or five weeks to go before I really feel okay about this. But yes, it can affect the repertoire you're doing and obviously different partner and different lifts and things. Some some girls tell the partner they're dancing with, and some don't, because they don't want their partner to freak out. They're going to do something wrong, and you're guided by your health, your health care professionals, and I had a lovely obstetrician for the girls who said to me when Okay, let's talk about twins. And I just said, I surely can't do anything that I meant to be doing. And he said, No, no, you're and obviously, this is not medical advice. This is just what he said to me in my circumstance. He said, No, no, just you just do what you're doing. That's your life. Normally, just keep doing that. I want you to do that. He gave me some options for the sickness. But other than that, and he was just said, you keep doing that. And I told David at the time, when I was 10 weeks pregnant, I was so close to getting to the shows, but I just had to say no. And he was so excited. I love it. So excited. Yeah, certainly I'm sure in many years, not that long ago gone by it was not at all a comfortable conversation to have. Yeah, I that's something in itself. I always felt like this was exciting news to share. It wasn't like, oh, well, that's, that's going to be a shame. Or why did you choose now like you're just doing so well, there's none of that, in my experience. And so there shouldn't be but I'm sure in the years gone by it was seen as a, you're not as dedicated because you've chosen to do this. Yeah, absolutely. And there probably wouldn't be the option to come back, because people would judge you on that and go, Well, they've chosen that so that you don't come back? No, I think traditionally, absolutely. And David was very clear about making that cultural, you know, a huge, a huge change in that, that it was only supportive, and you don't want to be losing all your top women, just because they they realize they don't want to miss out on something that has a finite time. Our career has a finite time. And so does you know, the years where you are able to have your children and care for them and deal with, you know, their early years. That's what's so tricky. Our job is so demanding to what we often feel as ballet moms feel at odds with is that you know, those early child hood years are so intense also. And you don't want to miss lots of it. And you want to be forming that bond and that connection, but also your career there. They are your best years. And they're kind of endears. So it's like a really tricky. And you just find your way and they do complement each other. But yeah, it's a big, I think it is a big decision to kind of be confident enough. If you do want to continue to ask him to put a pause button and say this is really important that I have a family as well. And then I'm going to come back and I'm still going to be able to do what I can do. Yeah, absolutely. When you found out you're having tweens and you mentioned those emotions. Did you think how's my body going to? I mean, I suppose at that point you weren't thinking Coming back, necessarily. But did you think how's my body going to go? Then? After all the changes? It's going to go through having to at one time, will I will I be able to dance the same way? Or, you know, how will my body come back from that with its, you know, flexibility? All that that kind of stuff. Did you did that sort of? Was that something was you thinking? I guess, because I wasn't thinking about coming back. And, again, I'll just like the timing of it. Literally COVID had just hit Australia. A few days before that. Last season I did opened and we only were able to perform three shows a Friday into Saturday. And then everything was close. That was when everything shut down. Yeah. Sorry about it only recently performed in Melbourne this last week, since then, sorry. Which everyone thinks is actually some kind of miracle. Right? Do they days, you know, give this to them, care for them? And then come back. And, you know, oh, it's the opening of Anna Karenina that was meant to open two years ago. And yeah. But I guess yeah, my mindset wasn't on, on anything regards to ballet. Yeah, when I was, I wasn't absolutely dead set against coming back. But I just in my mind, I was leaning towards that. And I've never actually, you know, really thought too hard about that kind of physical change. In terms of my career, with, you know, with pregnancy, I did, you know, I was pretty concerned about having a twin pregnancy genuinely, it's, it is a high risk. And, you know, we had our own complications along the way. And so nothing's taken for granted. And I think that perspectives enough to be like, you know, if you, if you can't get your leg up pie anymore, it's really, it's really not important. So I was just amazed my body could handle the twin pregnancy generally. Because I'm not, there's not a lot of room. Amazingly, they make room but pretty, pretty uncomfortable at the end. And, but it's also like I, a lot of people think somehow being a valid answer must help you in birth or something. And perhaps it does, but I think more than anything, it's just that you've been so strong your whole life, that on the flip side, your recoveries probably a bit. A bit easier, even from a twin pregnancy, then yeah, maybe someone who hasn't been as active and just so aware of, you know, muscles and how things feel. And yeah, I mean, I think a lot of valid answers. So if they do go back, they try to go back really quickly to dancing and they miss it. Like, I think physically, they miss it, and they miss feeling like that. And they have, you know, a really clear vision and for whatever other reasons, which are their own, they want to dance so quickly again. I mean, I didn't have that. That's just not part of me, but also after the twins. I mean, I wasn't sleeping until they were like 10 months old, proper properly. So I don't know where in that I was meant to be. In that to be thinking about doing ballet. i If there was ever a 10 minutes, I would try to lie on the couch. You know, I wasn't like oh, just do some exercise. It wasn't really my headspace. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I want to bring up I've had my own experiences with postnatal depression. So I can relate to a lot of stories that my guests share. And you've been really vocal about your journey. And I want to commend you for that, because I think it's so important that we talk about it so that it becomes like a normalization of this is, this is something that happens to a lot of people. And it's not something to, you know, be scared of or hide away from, we're going to talk about it so everyone can sort of help each other and, and ways to get through it. If you're comfortable sharing we can you tell us a little bit about that experience. Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, it's, you know, I I agree. It's, it's a topic that I believe should be spoken about more. You know, I can also understand you don't want to put that on to new months in that, oh, you know, it can be this hard and it can be so bad and you know, when they're going through such a transformative experience, and some people are not affected in that way. So you don't want to be Putting that experience onto everyone. But by the same token, there are so many women who are really battling with something that is out of their control. And it's meant to be the happiest time of your life. And it isn't, you feel quite unhappy, really. And on top of that, you're so sleep deprived, and so unable, what feels like so unable to cope, and then the guilt of not feeling like it's the happiest time of your life. There's so many levels of that, and the layers just kind of keep building each day. And it is, it's this, it's this kind of base and I can see, you know, externally now that why you feel like you can't say anything, and I felt that like that at the time, and I have such amazing support. And, you know, Locky is, is my greatest support in every way. And, you know, I had to sometimes some days, I had to feel, find the bravery somewhere in myself to actually say how it was. Because it felt like such a big thing to put on to someone else who's already supporting you, you know, and if that's your mom, or if that's anyone, but just to be like, it's actually really bad. You know, these are actually the thoughts I'm having. And I don't mean to be dramatic, because it's actually is that bad, you know, and mine. My postnatal depression, and anxiety kind of set in quite quickly. And, you know, I know everyone has a different experience. And yeah, I guess I'll just share mine. But yeah, twins is quite a shock. And I was so euphoric, I had this amazing, beautiful birth with them. And yeah, I had natural deliveries. And they were, you know, we, they were almost full term, and they were healthy. And after a really long pregnancy, worrying, like the relief for that. And I couldn't believe my body could do that. And I was like, This is great. And, you know, they were feeding well. And I was managing to feed them, somehow duck tanned and feed them, which is just somehow managed to do that. And you know, so you know, that first bit that first week or so, like, wow, I made two babies. And it's, um, yeah, I was, I actually did feel that pride and that, you know, we were ecstatic. And then, you know, the actual care of twins, and obviously, multiple births, you actually are just statistically at a higher risk of postnatal depression, because it's just hard. Yeah. And I was very lucky, I had people around me who said it like that, you know, and I had a really great obstetrician in Brisbane, where we had the girls eventually, I remember the six week appointment we had, I had it at four weeks, because we had to go back to Sydney at that time. So like, he could go back to work. And we had it a bit early. So it was even earlier than you know. And I walked in, and he was like, how he going and I said, like, death warmed up, and we'd had a terrible night, 20 minutes sleep the whole night. I was feeding them. At that point, trying to establish as is to better at once is one everyone says put them on a schedule schedule, put them on a schedule. And for someone who's had a schedule my whole life, like I, I would take to that like a duck to water but these babies still didn't know that. willing to do it. And I'm still feel like there's a part of me that, you know, was was perhaps keeping twins for a reason because I can stick I'm determined, I will make them do the same things at once. But not at that stage. They you know, and they're so you know, their tummies are so little and all of the, you know, you're up padding and tap, you know, do they need more and all of that, but times two. And so after even just four weeks of that, and no sleep. And I was feeding them so that's exhausting, obviously. And it really came on like a, you know, like a freight truck, even by that point. And then we moved back to Sydney. And I met a really wonderful, very just by chance. My maternal child health nurse there was incredible and a really important person in my journey because straightaway, even though she'd never met me, and I told her our, our story, and you know, my I hadn't seen my son Jasper, who was in Melbourne with his dad. And he'd been there 10 weeks and because the borders were closed with COVID Oh, yeah. And it's like, right, so you're here. You had the girls in Brisbane, because you had to fly up, go up, drive up there do hotel quarantine because of the risk. There was a risky birth situation anyway. So we had family support, so you had to leave your son in mail. When you're here in Sydney, you've been around a bit, you've just had twins, feeding them. And she's just like, this is, this is a lot. And she's like, No, you're not around your friends like, and you know, my work friends are my family. You're not around you use your usual people. You're at a really high risk here. And, and I was like, really? Ah, no, I'll be right. And she's, and she was like, no, no, we're, we're going to look at this. And I'm going to tell you like in a really great pragmatic way with someone who's so sleep deprived, and emotionally drained, needs to sometimes hear it so bluntly. And she's like, it's, you know, twins, it's about twin management. And, you know, I was like, but I meant to be like, loving them and like caring, and like looking at their toenails. And I'm like, I don't even know what their toes look like. That feeling of like, how much your adoring them and like staring at them. And with twins, you feel like, in fact, I can see you're getting, you're trying to get to know two people at once. So you're getting double the input, like feedback, but you can't process so I felt like it took me so much longer to know which one liked what and which one needed and to feel equally as close and in connection with an in tune with both, because it was just like, kind of like not a production line. But it's just it's just all routine. Yeah, yeah, it was. And, and that was to our to get to a point that it was to our benefit, so that you weren't up all day and all night with one baby at a time. So it was all working towards that. But to make that happen is is like hard work like effort, like one's up, okay, get the other one out. Okay, feed, that one's going out, put the other one down. Like it's, it's not just go with the flow. And I thought being a second pregnancy second baby, I'd love to be that like go with the flow parent, which ultimately probably doesn't suit my personality. But to just be more relaxed and to know it all passes. And to know, you get through it. And but it was it was such a different experience. So how could I and I, I really needed so much support. And I'm just to this day, every day. So grateful I had access to support. I know it makes me so sad to know that there's women out there who just don't have that support, or someone saying you need, I'm going to funnel you into a system and you're going to go to that mother baby and or you're going to have this appointment, or we're going to squeeze you into a telehealth to talk to someone because right now, that's crucial. It's not just like, oh, you know, four weeks time we'll do. It's like, right now this needs to happen. And very, very fortunately, with twins, in those sorts of areas, you do sometimes get a little bit of a, you get a priority. It's like we know this, this is yes has to happen. Yeah, which I you know, I was really grateful for that so I had people checking on me, and I felt so incapable. And just, you know, yeah, just so out of my depth. And, you know, I was just like, I think back and it is an every time. It's like, it's like a dream, like, and not always a good one. But it's like and I with my son, he came up to see us and I'd you know hadn't seen him it's so long, which was just so hard in itself. And he was meeting his new sisters and he had so much energy and I had so little to give him and it's just you know, there was always a baby that needed something and you know, he's been so patient and had to adjust but it took me a long time, especially with how I was feeling and how low I was feeling. And so anxious. You know, even when I got to sleep, I couldn't sleep. I didn't know again until I'd spoken to my nurse and to the psychologists I eventually spoke to that I that that feeling of rage or like anger, but mostly that that rage that like volcanoes up inside you and you just need like a you know, the pressure valve just needs to release is is a real, real sign of anxiety you You just think I'm just a horrible person. And I'm just so mean to everyone. And I'm so angry, and it's not fair. And why am I so awful? And he's like, No, it's the pressure release of you're so anxious. And I think in my career, I'm so used to dealing with pressure. And even if you're anxious, you're able to deal with it. Either squash it, compartmentalize it, do something with it. I didn't have an outlet. I didn't have time. You know, anyone talks about moms having time for themselves. It's like, that was a joke. When was like, understandably, it's just not, it's also not a fact, when he had young twins, and leaving the house, and people would talk to me at the cafe, and I just, I wouldn't even know how to talk. Like, I just, I just looked down, please don't talk to me, please. Lovely, have more and just like so. And, and you feel and it's another point where you just let I just don't feel that. Like they're so beautiful, and I love them. But my experience is just like, I can't get through this. I'm I'm just floundering. And that mismatch between what what people expect or think, is another layer of like, RC like I should be. And if I could just like what I said earlier about, but if I could just work harder if I could just think differently. I'm sure I could turn this around. But really, I needed a lot of help and support. And in time sleep. Yeah. Yeah, I needed an iron infusion. I needed, you know, there was a whole plan that I was very lucky, multiple people, you know, and I had an incredibly supportive partner who sat there and looked me in the face. And you know, how old were you when I said awful things, you know, really was like, I don't like having to say this. But if I get this out, it has less power. And then we could kind of like, move through it. And so over time, and I noticed too, this is something that it feels like too much to be like, I need an hour to do my telehealth with my psychologist, you know, especially with a young family and Jasper was at school. And there was always a reason I could have just cancelled that I was lucky to get into a psychologist with the Gates Foundation in Sydney. And so that really worked, especially not having to go out of the house. If I had to go to an appointment, I probably wouldn't have prioritized it again. I was lucky in that COVID time that telehealth was a thing. And yet, when I dropped a few weeks, it wouldn't happen immediately. But it would start to come in again, I'd feel that that ends all day anxiety. And as soon as one of the girls would wake up before I wanted her to it was so frustrating. And why are you? Why are you not doing what I thought you're meant to be doing. And now I have to get the other one out and restart again. And it's school pick up tight and just it would my coping mechanisms would start to fall away again. And obviously, everything feels like it falls apart. So definitely talking to someone, you know, weekly became a priority. And if that meant I heard, you know, my mom with the girls, and they're both screaming as hard as that was, yeah. It, I had to at some in some way. Prioritize that hour. And then once the girls were able to be in a routine that was more consistent, they didn't sleep as well as my son ever did. And, you know, every time they went through a sleep regression, one of them would always hit it worse than the other. And, and you know, not that long ago, you know, one of my girls was up for like six hours a night for a couple of weeks. And you're just like, What do I do? How How is ones just sleeping? And but you what do you do with a baby for six hours says every Monday, every overwhelmed of all time. And of course you get through it. But I could get through that because I'm in such a better place. And I've had some sleep. And it seems so simplistic to say, Oh, you just need time and sleep. But really, fundamentally, they're two really important things that help you with young babies. Yeah, absolutely. Sleep is sleep is king. You just get anxious about it. And so I'm like set on how everyone's sleeping how the baby's sleep times to this case, which it was ultimately everything. How you're sleeping, how my son like anyone who'd make a noise that would potentially you know, a lot of symptoms of postnatal depression and anxiety I you think all you feel pretty, pretty sad and pretty low bit unmotivated. You're not enjoying it as much. A lot of the Symptoms like I couldn't handle light. I couldn't handle sound my son's footsteps running down the corridor. We're just like, Ah, it's just so loud in here one night, I was asking people to turn off the lights and the TV. And everyone was so lovely and, you know, receptive, but they looked at me like, oh my gosh, yeah, it's really not that bad. But the sensory overload for someone who was already at the end of it, like wit's end on every level, I think was just too much of a trigger. When I, I had my first son 14 years ago, and we, you know, you go to the prenatal classes, and this guy came in from Beyond Blue, I think, Oh, I can't remember where he was from, he might have just been from the hospital. So basically, he, he said to us, you're going to have times when you feel beat down, it's going to be hard. You're going to have, you're going to feel you're gonna get the baby blues. So good luck with that. And that was what, that's what they told us about, about postnatal depression. And it was like the intensity, oh my gosh, actually can be. And also, by this point, for anyone, when you're having a child, it's the responsibility you feel like, is overwhelming at times. Even though this is something you desperately wanted in that it doesn't change the fact that it's a huge responsibility that everything to do with this little person, or these two little people, it is about you and your decision. And every decision you make, you know, it's I think, trivialize it like that, compared to, obviously, you know, what it's like, it's couldn't, couldn't be, you know, more polar opposite to how intense it feels. It's absolutely not baby blues. And you know, that's what I say to anyone I know, who's having a baby or has had a baby, you know, like, I'm up in the night often anyway, so if you need to call anyone, please just know, you can always message me or call me or anything, because it's, it's not trivial. And there are some moments in time that you might actually just need someone. And as someone who, it doesn't matter what you've done in your life previously, as someone who by that point usually feels a bit capable are a bit like, you know, I can manage things to feel so incapable is, and so at a loss is such an unsettling, despondent feeling, let alone then feeling like that, and being responsible for someone else. Hmm. Yeah. I want to touch on when you said, when you spoke to your, the nurse that you said was really, really good. When she sort of told you all these things, these were massive things that were impacting, and, and you sort of said, I'll be right. Were you feeling like at that point? And you don't have to answer this if I'm trying too much. Did you feel like because I'm sort of trying to relate it to my experience? Did you feel like you had to pretend it wasn't happening? Or did you really genuinely feel like it was wasn't happening? I don't think I was aware how bad it was, even though I felt really bad. I knew it was I think it's like everyone has that pride. And I think I thought I could get through it. Or a bit like if I just do this in this a nice it'll, it'll go away or or it will get better. Yeah, I guess that was her point was just, you know, it's it doesn't have to be okay. You have so much going on, not to mention a pandemic. Yeah. Parents of the last two years, have not been able to access for their children for themselves for their families, the same levels of care, the lack of, you know, the lockdowns, the restrictions that the people popping over the all of those little things that at such a critical time, might be that one person you spoke to who you got to have a hug with, or might be, you know, all of that wasn't there. And I think I'm used to coping with quite a lot. I'll be the first to say I don't cope very well with change, or with anything going not to plan. Even though a whole lot of things in life in my life. You know, like, really there's been A lot of change and a whole lot of things that I've actually had to cope with. I think I cope externally very well. But internally, I, I battle how well I'm coping. And also I you know, you don't want to be a downer for everyone. I think that's another layer that no, we will women who are feeling, you know, like they are postnatally depressed, that you don't want to be a burden on other people. You want to live up to what you're meant to be living up to, you know, yeah, that is so true. You just not. And again, sometimes it has to be as plain as day is that. And also that first appointment, I think, you know, I had all these questions about the babies and you know, this feeding this and, you know, sleeping in their tummies, all this stuff, you had this list of things like all every new moms, dads, and she's like, I don't want to talk about babies. It was so amazing. So experience is I want to talk to you my mind anxious me, I just wish we could get to the things I want to talk about. So I'm getting to know both of us, myself lucky, our stories, how we got to this point, and you know, obviously with the traveling and the quarantine, and all of the know driving on the highway and all of this and Jasper and and she's like, you know, it's a pyramid structure. And she said, everyone thinks that the parents are, you know, come last, and there at the bottom, but it's actually the other way around. If you're at the top, and it filters down. If you guys aren't okay, no one's okay. And then when it came to me, if you're not, okay, no one else is okay. And that's not a burden to you, that's just where we need to put you in this picture. Because you're going to be putting yourself down here and everyone else comes first. And that the baby's needs come first. And as someone who does like perfection in that way, whenever they'd cry, I'd feel like a failure. When I couldn't settle them, I'd feel like a failure. And like lots of mums do because that's your feedback. And you equate that to how well you're doing at being a mum. And when you've got two of them at once doing that. Or when you've just got one settled and the other you think your status quo is constantly being disrupted. So therefore, you must be doing a terrible job. And someone else would be doing this better than you. But she, she kind of was the right person for me to be saying, you know, they're going to cry sometimes, and you're not going to like it. But if that means you got to eat something that is okay. Because if you don't put any of your needs first with twins, you will never ever look after yourself. And that's going to trickle down. And that's no good for anyone. So I had to relearn I have to actually in my very sad, anxious, not really, you know, really fuzzy how fuzzy you feel. Yeah, you are in that, that place like other than the tiredness, but there's a fuzz that, you know, you can't even make a sentence. Even still, I had to with practice with time, we support and someone checking in and going over this, again, really learn about putting some of my needs first, to then be able to help other people. That's it's a massive, a massive thing. To, for someone to ask you to do that. And then more massive to actually put into practice. That's, it's huge, isn't it? Because that's not how we're not, we're not wired to think that way. We've we've just got to give given given given give. So we kind of do feel, perhaps all mothers always do. But I do you sense in this time when I talk to my mom and you know, women of that age, that the pressure younger parents now put on themselves to be everything for their children. every second and every moment is a teachable moment. And, you know, if you did it this way, they won't have tantrums because they'll have all the food and you know, because you will have practiced these strategies and all of this and you sat with your child and looked him in the eye and all of that, you know, someone's having a meltdown in Kohl's and you've got to get back to work in like half an hour. It's really hard to be that parent. And we have that vision in ourselves. Like I want to be this parent and myself. I wanted to be that parent and then I had new born twins and I thought I knew some some things about having a baby turns out with twins it's a totally different story. And I just did absolute like sleep deprivation doesn't you know and that's what I just you know, I can't even believe I got through and any twin parents is because it's such a. Anyway triplets. quarters don't even single babies are really tricky to and it's, it's separating that like having that difficult baby or that tricky baby does not relate to how well your mothering like, it is not the same thing it's so hard to. And again, you need other people drumming that into you, reminding you and I, you know, I'm lucky that I have, I have those people around me. So I've found my way through and to, you know, not just to an end that big story. Sorry, very long story positive, but I do feel like and not that I wish this on any other mother, ever. But I do feel like the enjoyment I get from my girls. And the joy I have with them now that I had been through that experience of being so down. It really is amplified because I see it. And I remember when I first started feeling better over time, and then you have your bad days again. And then you know it's incremental. But when I actually enjoyed them, I just like cried with happiness. I just thought, oh my gosh, I'm enjoying them. Oh my gosh, like, and I think the appreciation for that was so huge. And I you know, I know there's challenging times ahead, children, but I do, I do have a greater sense of that appreciation for that, you know, enjoyment. And the present illness after feeling so not present. So spacey, so unable to be in the moment because you don't even know where you are. And sometimes you just wished you are asleep. Most of the time. Do not thank you for sharing that. So candidly, I appreciate it. And I'm sure there's a lot of people that listening that are going to kind of take a lot from it. So thank you. Sorry, that that's the only you know, that's what not that I mean, but I do feel like that is the one one blessing of going through that experience is that you were able to help so many other people by sharing yours. And that is the only reason I have you know, I've shared about that in my own in my own space. And you know, I'm very lucky that I've had that support and I just like I said before, I just so hope that other women have that too. And if that means one day when they're having a really bad day and they happen to read something you know, which has happened to me before to you read something on a particularly bad day and might just help you see that evening witching hour, just somewhat a bit differently for that one day. If I can help one person one day by them reading something, then I'm I'm really glad. Yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom, if my mom Alison Newman. After you start to feel, well, you're enjoying these moments and things are feeling feeling improved for you. When did you get that spark that you thought? I'm gonna go in depth again? Well, I wasn't actually feeling much better when I first started thinking about that. Yeah. Yeah, so dancing again, in, in a kind of condensed fashion, which I'm not good at, as you can see it again, was part of me feeling well, again, and I couldn't have known that at the time. Like I said, I really didn't think I would dance again. And the most exercise I would get would be when I was in the girls room, and they might have just like settled and I didn't want to open the door and the light come in. So I'd lie on the floor. And do you know, my pelvic floor exercises, that's that's the extent of where I was at. And that wasn't so I could get back on stage that was just to be a functional person again, and I have a really incredible Women's Health physio, which I also very much recommend to any any woman anywhere, no matter what you've done in your life. But you know, that was something that was just good for me. That was not, I'm just going to start with this because that'll be helpful when I'm dancing. There was no dancing thoughts. I would go over ballets when I was like rocking them to sleep in in their room, or like settling them like sometimes a random step would come out. But I was thinking about my retirement speech more than anything. And then COVID At the time I thought I probably won't even have anything and then I thought that's so sad like After 18 years like that, it just, you know, some people choose to have it that way. And I wouldn't have had a fanfare but I always thought when I retired, I'd have my family there. But yeah, I think about what I'd say. And they're the thoughts that would come and go in my, you know, spacey state that was my dance world. And so it was actually people around me mainly Locky. Because he's so supportive of me and my career. And it would be very easy to say, Oh, this is too hard. Donna, you know, Donna, you know, he tours, obviously, he's very busy with his job. And he loves his job. And, you know, he, you know, that's his dream job. And he is so good at it. It's, you know, we love watching him and but just, you know, the, the, we both have very demanding jobs in the eyes. Yeah, there was never a question of like, are from anyone that my mind was less significant in any way, or that it would be easier if I stopped dancing, because then that would work better for the family or just be easy, at some point, that probably will become part of the reason you know why we shift into a different way of how our family works. But just because I'd had two babies was not a reason for that to happen. So here's the first person who wanted to see me dance again, if that was something I wanted to do. So he he was very supportive over time in his beautiful way, not in your face just a little bit every day. Go in and have the conversation, you've got a contract still, your position is there. It's not trying to get a new job. It's your job. It's your position, have a chat, but not like what how could I talk? This is ridiculous. Don't even think about that. Go in and have a chat with David David Hallberg, our new director. So this was a new director for me, so I'm gonna who doesn't know me. And that was quite daunting in itself. So eventually, by about seven months, the company was in Melbourne at the time, they just had a Sydney season that somehow managed to squeeze in with COVID. And I arranged an appointment and decided to go in and you know, I could have not gone that day, I felt terrible, you know, I was going to miss a feed from the girls. And, you know, they'd never been left do that anyone else? Really? My mom was there lucky. I don't know if lucky was there that day. But yeah, it just all felt too hard. Of course, it's too hard. You know, there's so many other things. When you're in that, like baby space, that's too hard, leaving the house, one of them any variable for someone who is very much struggling with the day to day, a variable is too hard. Like go in and have a chat. So I put, like proper clothes on which I hadn't done and drove my car, which I also hadn't done in a while. And, you know, all of these things, and it felt like stepping out into the world again. And that was incredibly I remember, also being in this state I was, it was a sensory overload all of it, like the light, the sounds, just everything's coming into the carpark going in the left, I felt sick. Coming up, you know, it wasn't like, Oh, I'm home. And this is, you know, this is so lovely. I spent all my life here, it's, I was not in that stage. And also things had really moved on. That building felt different. I'm so glad I did, obviously. And David was very gracious in probably accepting me in that state. And, you know, I'm also a new person to him, and I just kind of flat out said, I've had a really, really rough time, and I didn't think I'd dance again. And he's like, you know, what would you like to talk about? And I said, I just I think I might want to try. You know, it wasn't a hugely confident telling yourself. I might want to try. It's like, what would that look like? I don't know. I've run out. I couldn't look him in the eye. And, you know, I just I was a shell of myself. And he just said, Well, how about you to start somewhere? I said, I don't know what, what I could come back to, you know, I was thinking like roles or seasons or and he's like, just don't even think about that. Just start somewhere, just babysit. And I was like, you know, you feel like you've got to offer something. I'll, I'll work I'll come back and I'll do that or I'll try for that series that just just don't yeah, don't think that far ahead. Just just in me Reality, if I'd actually thought about everything I have to do to get in this building every day, and to tour, I would not have gone in that day at all. So it was absolutely right on all fronts. So then I started coming in. And that was my therapy, I guess I'd come in and do Pilates kind of conditioning exercises that are quite specific what we do here. And, you know, I've done them for years. And I was very lucky that everyone knows me very well here. And in terms of, you know, the artistic health team, know me very well. I know how I function best and they weren't in my face. Some, you know, there's some mums amongst them. And they, they know, they knew instinctively what I needed. Sometimes that was just done. This is done a space, she's coming in today. And she's, you came in today, and I was like, and they're like you came in today. And then I start doing my little toe push up to the theater events. Yeah. And, you know, they could sense the days, I just needed space for myself. And that's essentially what it was. Because if I was home, I was always doing something I couldn't, we just coming back from Jessa, it was different, I could do a lot at home and he was asleep. The girls were still up and down all the time. There was always something to do food to cook a snack to get Jasper to, like, I had to go somewhere to have my that my time. And so that started like that incrementally. Then I joined our like daily training class. And that was, again, usually we work with Megan Connolly, who's our rehab coach, you normally go in with her and you know, do a couple of weeks, just one on one. And she's like, so you're gonna go into class today. And I said, Oh, but like, what are we going to do? And she's like, on in and I just go in there. I was like, no, that's just like, this is a studio with people, other people. And like a teacher and a penis. And I was like, I just, I can't, I can't like so many people in the eye, it really, you know, was a full body experience trying to get myself back into the world. And I did that by coming back into ballet, into something I knew. And that even like, all at that point. And even to vary up to when I did my first shows, I had to think if I don't get to do shows, if I don't get if I stop before I get to the like the goal or the cherry on top that I've this has been a successful worthy process, because this is what needed to happen for me. So it's more about the process rather than the end goal. It was about all those steps, and how that was like your therapy. It was actually it was and my maternal child health nurse had commented on that so much earlier. So how are we going to get you back to work? Like, that's just can't too hard. It's just we're gonna have to think about if you want, but we'll have to think about that. And I was not in that headspace. Whereas someone like her externally so much experience, I think could see pinpoint. This, this woman is going to need even for a short window of time to find a part of herself that has been so not thought about. And so I started in class for a little bit. Some days, I'd have to leave because I was overwhelmed by it wasn't even the ballet, the actual dance and everyone's like, Oh, it looks like you've never left and I'm standing there like a shell of myself and can't even express how different I felt. Physically. I was going through the motions. So and that's what I think is is tricky externally, after 18 month sort of dancing. Twins. i And I don't mean to say this, in a sense, it's precocious, but I was actually just going through the motions giving the actual dancing side of things such little thought because it was actually so much more a mental battle for me to stay in the room. People are there. They're going to look at you sometimes their eyes. Okay, you did it like, yeah, yeah, it was it just Yeah, it's like your body just almost had its own experience there. It knew the muscles knew what to do. It just did its own thing. And you could let it do that. In the meanwhile, the you know, inside your head. All this is happening. And yeah, and it's hard. People don't say that. Like literally, like you said, they said, it's like you never left. So they're only seeing this outside and they're not, you know, seeing the whole picture. So yeah, it's the realizations that come to me when I'm dancing. That's always been the case. But especially in that time and even still, the distance I have from being at home when I'm At the ballet, and when I'm dancing, things come to me and I solve problems in my head. And yeah, you know, I have these epiphany moments all the time about my kids and about mothering. When I'm at the bar. It comes to me then. Ah, so it is there's something about that. And maybe just because I've grown up doing it, and there's live music the first day, when someone started, we have, you know, a live pianist. So they start playing plays, and they improvise every day, all these exercises, and I just, like, my mouth was open, I was just like, oh my gosh, that's right. So I'm gonna just plays music for your day. Someone amazing, just plays music, music all day for you. was a really profound one. But I think I could unravel a lot of what had happened over the last 18 months, by being in that space. Yeah, wouldn't have to do at home for sure. Or even, you know, gone for a run or something it might have might have worked that there was something about, like you said, my body being a little bit on autopilot, that my mental chat could start to unravel a little bit. Okay, the space, it's, it's almost like, like a meditation in some ways that, like, I mean, I know, traditional meditation, you lay down, and then your body's at rest, so your mind can work. But sort of, in that way, like, your body's just doing its thing. You don't have to think about it. And then yeah, all this stuff, you're open to process, like it's a problem solve. And I feel very, I had such like a vehicle actually, that was way too daunting at the start, but actually became, you know, the art form that I've loved forever, actually, was the way into, you know, the new version of me that was all put together. Every kind of come before. Yeah, that's, that's incredible. It's like it truly is a part of your identity. And it just needed it was like that. Yeah, like I keep coming back to this word therapy was and that nurse was was experienced enough to see that, that that was going to be part of your healing was to get that part of your life back again. Yeah. And that's how long you know, who knows, and it's not about that. And I was lucky enough to be able to, after Melbourne, got out of the last longtown last year, we had a gala celebration season in December, it was a 10 day runner shows at the Art Center. And I was lucky enough to be ready at that point. I I'd only just come back full time. And so that was a personal choice, too. I extended my maternity leave beyond the 12 months, because I wasn't ready yet to leave the girls. I wasn't ready to have my schedule dictated to. I still needed to have because everything just took longer. And with twins, it just does. I think for everyone to find their feet for the tweens to settle into life like everything. Yeah, yeah, but certainly I wasn't ready to be after that long fighting to be there and enjoying them to then just evacuate and be at work you know, for 1012 hour days. So I took a really slow slow ride in and that meant I was working Training Training obviously you can't just turn off on day one. So from you know, from when they was eight months maybe not wasn't actually was like 10 months old. That's when I started some physical stuff and then I did all of that on my own time on my own schedule and then the week before shows opened as I'd planned but they everyone knew but I was like that's when I finish things that you've got a week and then a week of shows and I'm going on holiday Yeah, so again like compartmentalizing things like right from the start how lucky was saying just go into a chat and then you had you had David just saying well just try the sword you know it was it's breaking that down because the overwhelm if you think about everything is just too much it's just it's not it's not good yeah. The topic of mum guilt in and I guess everyone has different views. Use of what that is some people think it's a load of rubbish, which is great. Other people have like really relate to it, which is fine. Everyone's different. Have you ever had any experience with that? Or your thoughts about that are definitely have experience with mom guilt. That's something I feel all mums do face. And I will I'm certainly I certainly do. And a lot of the ballet mums here, that's a big one for us. Obviously, feeling guilty all the time serves no one. So I'm aware of that, too, that it's, it's a, it's a sensitive feeling that isn't really helping anyone. But what we do here at the ballet feels very self centered and self absorbed. It's such a giving up form, but our experience of how hard it is and the work we need to put in and the conditioning and the focus. And the I've got to get to the theater at this time. Because I've got to get my hair, I've got to do my makeup, I've got to think about my steps. And all of that changes after you become a man, you minimize everything and into the small amount of time as you can. But there's still the sense that I'm doing something for myself here. Like I'm, I'm focusing on myself, and I want that role. And I want to do that on stage and every one. I want to feel that. And you can't help but think I've got these little people who are like, Hey, Mom, I want you to but yeah, you know, so I very much relate to that. Whilst also understanding it's not really helpful. But there was something that I come back to, and what has often come from people reminding me and then I try to repeat it for myself is that your children, seeing you as a whole person is really important. And your children, especially with what we do seeing, seeing, you're so dedicated and so passionate, and loving something so much. What brought to you is really, really important to especially as a mother. And I think the uniqueness of what we do and touring half the year, the you know, the changeability, that pulling kids out of school or daycare and taking them to Sydney for two months, can feel like a bit of a liability and a bit of a, you know, kind of mixing their life up so much. And you know, with my son, I felt really guilty, he hasn't been able to do regular swimming lessons. And he hasn't been able to do soccer. And you know, I can't always be the one at the school gate. And even though when I was at home with the little girls with my twins, and he started school, when I stood at the school gate, I felt so out of place, I felt, I just felt so out of place. I just, I just I just yeah, it was actually a really uncomfortable feeling. And he didn't actually really care if I was if it was me there or not. Some days he does, and he is but he's also had such a colorful, interesting childhood already. I tried to flip that round, to say actually, he's had exposure to things that other kids haven't had. Yes, they've had playdates regular playdates, they go to soccer every Saturday, and the routine of that, and, you know, maybe the social constancy of that, you know, he hasn't had, but he's also had exposure to so many other things. So in context of my work and knowing it's not forever, knowing at some point, and probably, you know, by the time the girls are at school, I will be at the school gate every day, makes this time even more precious. And, you know, I do hope that, you know, they can see that their mom, you know, in did look after themselves, so that I could look after them. I do hope at some point in their lives, they can, they can see how valuable that was. And I might Santi now at the ballet, and he just had the best home ever so football with with the dancers, and that's something that other kids don't get to do. That's it. Yeah, absolutely. It's about although I think it's um, it relies again, on, you know, routinely reminding yourself of the value that your your art and your work is giving to you, and then how that's trickling down into your family. I definitely have more energy and more, more empathy, more support, more, more valuable time, if I've just had a bit of time for myself. At the moment that time is being spent doing something that I love, which is dancing. And at some point in the future, I have to find something else that that time is for so that that can still trickle down. Yeah, absolutely. You have you have that thing that feels that pick up and then you can you can give to others. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's good. You said about that. Because yeah, one of the things I like to mention is that it's, it is important for children to say, what their mums and dads are doing. I didn't matter what didn't actually mean to ask this, I was about to say something different. But as you mentioned before the girls like see their dad on the telly like, that's just like, did they? Did they make the connection? Do they like this? Yeah, yeah. I mean, probably assisted by the fact that like, hey, look, this study the girls, this is something I think all kids love music and dancing and our all of our kids do, but especially the girls are so absorbed in music and dance. And I mean, maybe some of those genetic I found with Queens, one of the only ways especially when they're early, you know, when they're lying on their little playing mat. That was one thing to keep them both entertained at once, which wasn't holding both of them at once was to lay them on the floor. And I'd put Wiggles, you know, playlists on and dance around like a little crazy person, you know, crazy person and try and sing not as well as their dad. And they would kick their little legs and you know, smile and giggle and that, you know, they obviously had exposure really, really early on to that. And still those particular wiggles that I've obviously drummed into them are their favorites. I you know, I love that they, I love so much, you know, we at 410 Every day we put you know, ABC Kids on and that's when we will design that's our little 10 minutes of you know, TV. They start dancing around and you know, Emma twirls around and they're, they're twirling around and they're trying to actually trying to do a sign language. It's amazing what young babies are picking up because there's me involved like, yeah, it's how they are learning because their music and dance involved. It's so innate. Yeah, I think it's really lovely. Obviously, Daddy's out there too. And that's pretty special. And yeah. We're taking them to the wiggles concert next week. And by we, I mean me. And I can't wait. Because even when they were five months old, I think, you know, I was on the sides with the girls. And my mom and Lulu especially was transfixed, and you know, five months old for 45 minutes. Oh, yeah, totally transfixed. And I think the power of music and dance is so, so beautiful. And I'm so glad they're growing up. So, so all amongst it. Yeah, it is beautiful, isn't it, it's like, like you're saying before, it might not be the, you know, going to soccer every week or the, you know, whatever it might be. But it's you're giving the children such an incredible life, just this exposure to things that other children might not get. And it's just, it's so awesome. It is. And it's challenging, obviously, and logistically, it's a jigsaw puzzle, turn it upside down and back to front and try put it back together again, every day is like that we have so many moving parts of our lives function. were two of us trying to tune out as well. It's just pretty, pretty full on and we're desperate school and trying to keep that consistent. And but it but it is it's it's it's good. I think I always try to remember to this is such a short amount of time. Yet ultimately, it's the best time for it to be like this. Yeah. Jess was starting us kit this year. And he'll he'll he'll do that, you know, he'll do that in years to come. He'll have enough soccer on Saturdays and he will get to your swimming lessons. But this is a unique time where I'm able to still do this. I can't do this again in 10 years time, being the level I'm at and want to be in 10 years time. So I might say you can but I'm, you know, I'm more than every day. I'm aware of that. You know, I do I have the best job in the world. And I get to go on stage and be different people and have world class orchestras playing music for me and do something I felt mostly quite natural doing my whole life. You know, it's it's hard to say no to that. And yes, hopefully my children can benefit from that too. Yeah, absolutely. I've got a wrench and the there was a beautiful article. Sydney Morning Herald where they took all these amazing photos of your family dressed up, and there's this one photo. I think it's Lulu. Like you've got this beautiful dress on and you're holding it and she's like, whatever like her facial expression. It's like, Oh, come on. I just every time I look at that, I just think she's in this world she gets, she knows what's going on. And she's like, Yeah, I'm in front of the camera again. With that particular photo, I know you're talking about it was one of her actually smiling. Yeah, they didn't using it. So when I saw that particular shot, when she's looking at, yeah, like, whatever. I thought it's a bit of a shame. But for whatever reason, maybe my leg looked better. Or, you know, the dress looks, you know, had a bit more flow or something. But I yeah, I did think that oh, interestingly enough, she's the one who loves her dress, and you put it on and she doesn't actually turned around. I just find those things. So interesting. Yeah. I don't know what Mommy does. Really. They don't. They haven't been able to come in most of my friends here at work. haven't even met the girls because of COVID. And, yeah, we're still very careful here, obviously. So those sorts of things aren't allowed. But yeah, they actually only know dancing through what they know themselves and through Wiggles. Um, but it's I love watching them just like, you know, dance along. Yeah, yeah. No, I just love I had to mention that. It's really funny. She's, she's really theatrical one. Currently in our Melbourne season of Anna Karenina, which was meant to be in the 2020 season, but has been postponed several years. So it's so lovely to have been able to get the this ballet on here. It actually made it to Adelaide last year and a little sneaky little week. It's a big, bold, intense drama. So beautiful, amazing costumes, scenery, a real modern day story of such a classic novel, obviously. So we're performing out here now. And we move that to Sydney, in April. Yeah, for three weeks. And we open also in Sydney in May a massive production called Kunstkammer, which is a whole huge evening of work. It's an amazing show from Netherlands dance theater and dt, which is the premier absolute, contemporary dance creative Maverick company from the last 60 something years. So this concept of Karma is a collection of incredible, four different choreographers who came together to create this incredible work, and there's so much in it. So it's a big undertaking for the company, but an absolute gift for us. No one else in the world has performed this ballet. So to have this in Australia is like having, you know, the rarest gem. So we're currently working on that at the moment, which is really exciting. You know, the some of the choreographers, I never thought I would ever be in the same room as them. Last year when we started workshopping and are just learning the early bits and I thought this is already enough like day one I've seen in the room with Paul Lightfoot. I never thought that would happen. This is unbelievable. So that's so exciting. We're doing that in Sydney in May. We bring that to Melbourne in June. So Melbourne gets to see that too. And then we open a ballet called Harlequinade here, which is a great commedia dell'arte, ballet, slapstick kind of comedy, but really clever, lots of dancing. Really funny, a real family sort of fun piece, which I'm really excited about. It's the sort of dancing that I get really excited by it's virtuoso, kind of pumping and turning and lots of fast movement but also lots of comedic timing and storytelling, which you know, I think is challenging but so, so rewarding. And then we have to finish off the first half the year we have our Adelaide season actually of counterpoint which is double bill, a double bill of Raymonda and which is a classical to to act. And then I got, I got artifacts, we really emphasize artifact suite, which is kind of like, again, a ballet that you know, the Eastern invite to have in their repertoire is a real coup. Yeah, that pushes dancers to like next level. So a whole lot of work. So, so you are performing something but then learning something else at the same time. Like you're doing different man that must does that screw with your head a bit, though, that you're like, which character am I today? That if you're doing the same dance, but several roles in the same dance that is quite tricky for the brain. Yeah, but I find the role is in the music. So whatever musics on it just getting to Yeah, we only did we did two versions of Swan Lake back to back. And that was a bit like, Oh, which one are we in? This one was modern was restoration, or, Oh, it's kind of similar, but not quite hit it in a music. But again, that's a skill that you kind of have to pick up along the way. And that's the challenge as well. But yeah, it's that's the sort of thing that I think people don't realize they do. Yeah, I never realized that till you just said that then, because I think musically, we're certainly my experience, you've got a show coming up. So you work on all this stuff for that show, then that show finishes, then you start for your next thing. But your world is just constantly constantly going, revolving door. And the different dance styles really challenge your body in different ways. And it's often when you start a new dance style, like as in a new piece of repertoire, it often you get quite sore or a bit, you know, using different muscles to do what you have been doing, and it feels a bit not quite the same as last night, and you're all caught up to my coin. How do I do that today? It is a constant challenge in that respect. But also it's the richness of the work we get to perform in the company here is that it's so diverse. And we actually are all very versatile dancers and very capable of that. So yeah, yeah, there was always lots to look forward to. And that's why you know, if you're not in a season this season heavily, you're there's something coming up always to think about. So we're very lucky. It's like a feast for us here. Everyone's very jealous overseas, how many shows we do? Talking about the kids like the dancing, I've worked in childcare, that's my day job. And I've certainly had a lot of wiggles over the years. But like it, they will that's what they want to hear the kids like, oh, we have this computer that we set up the music and and we have different music for sleep time. And anytime anyone walks over there we go squiggles or we will lose or they'll just they'll just start doing actions and they just love it. And same, like you said about the sign language. Like it's just becoming more mainstream a part of culture. Because of that, that, you know, the AMA, and it's like, it's just wonderful. It's, there's so there's so much like education value in what they're doing. It's not like, you know, they're not just a bunch of people to stenciling and having a party. It's like, they're actually educating and it's our like, my eldest son, he grew up with the originals. And then it was lovely to meet everyone in a different way. And some new faces when I had Digby, he's, he's six. So yeah, the year is and it's just a wonderful thing that it's still going and they've got the new faces now and it's just it's a wonderful part of our culture, I think. Yeah, yeah. It's, um, it's a it's a pretty special experience to be able to, you know, share that with children. And I do think, like I said, Before, they children just learn so innately through through music and dance without even knowing they are. And I think that probably goes across the ages and that goes into, you know, children who are well about, you know, three, four or five years old who love all those sorts of songs and things and so much scope for for learning with music and dance and how that can help all kids and all sorts of education kind of settings. With a ballet you know, we have storytime ballet which is, you know, the ballet for kids and Jasper seen those shows and a lot of kids come to those shows and you know, that is also what sparks a lot of children's in imaginations and a lot of what becomes the future generation of ballet dancers here and overseas, because they started at that first storytime, ballet performance, you know, that their mom or their grandma or someone took them to when they were three, four or five, six? Yes, spark something of that experience that took them somewhere. And then that takes them on their life to, you know, what they might like to become? And I'm sure that's how it happened with me like I just How can you not get take with that whole experience? And I think, you know, with ballet and music you that's pretty special to have that spark at such a young age and to play a part in that little person. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. That's it. That's a beautiful note to end on. I think. Thank you so much, Donna, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on. Thank you for giving me so much time and, and chatting. So candidly, I've really, really enjoyed it. I have to thank you for giving me the space to you know, just like I said, I hope I can always help. The only reason I'd ever share anything about what I'm doing in my life or at home is that I can help someone else. And it's really lovely that ballet dancers now have the choice to become mums. And that, you know, we're working through this space of working out how they kind of feed and inspire each other. So thank you for giving me the space. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum

Alisha Burns Australian podcaster + author S3 Ep82 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Alisha Burns, a podcaster and author based in Melbourne Australia, and a solo mum by choice (SMBC) to her daughter Lexi. Alisha was born in New Zealand and moved to Australia 8 years ago. After getting married, going through a stressful IVF journey, and then experiencing a pregnancy loss, Alisha's marriage broke down. She spent the next 6 years searching for 'Mr Right,' on all the dating apps, even moving countries. It was during a time of great loss for her family that Alisha made the realisation that what she was looking for wasn't actually a husband, it was to become a mother. Alisha then began the journey of having her own daughter Lexi using a donor. After appearing as a guest on another podcast for SMBCs, Alisha became inspired to not only share her own story, but of those who had also experienced this journey, and also to make available resources and information for those thinking of taking this path. Thus began the No Need for Prince Charming podcast and online communty. Alisha is also an author, with her book My Perfect Family available now . Her book aims to normalise the language around families, that all kinds of families are perfect, no matter how they are made up, and that all children are really just the same. **This episode contains mentions of IVF and pregnancy loss** Connect with Alisha - podcast instagram / podcast website / listen to podcast Her book instagram / book website Podcast - instagram / website Alisha would like to offer a special for podcast listeners - 15% off her book. Use the code ART15 at checkout before the end of February 2023 If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone dig people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Thank you so much for joining me today on another episode of The Art of Being a mum podcast. It is a pleasure to have you here, wherever you are all around the world. As I record, this is the final week of school holidays here in South Australia. We've had six weeks and I'm ready to go back to work and my kids are ready to go back to school and I think most of you, if not all of you in South Australia or Australia, probably feeling the same way. It's been a long six weeks. My guest this week on the podcast is Alicia burns. Alicia is a podcaster and author based in Melbourne, Australia, and she's a soccer mom by choice to her daughter Lexi. Alicia was born in New Zealand, but she moved to Australia eight years ago. After getting married, going through a stressful IVF journey and then experiencing a pregnancy loss. Alicia his marriage broke down. She spent the next six years searching for Mr. hight on all the dating apps, and even moving countries. It was during a time of great loss for her family that Alicia made the realization that what she was looking for wasn't actually a husband, it was to become a mother. Alicia then began the journey of having her own daughter, Lexi using a diner. After appearing as a guest on another podcast for solo mums. By choice, Alicia became inspired to not only share her own story, but of those who had also experienced this journey, and also to make available resources and information for those thinking of taking on this path. Thus began the no need for Prince Charming podcast and online community. Alicia is also an author, with her book, my perfect family available now. Her book aims to normalize the language around families, that all kinds of families are perfect, no matter how they are made up, and that all children are really just the same. This episode contains mentions of IVF and pregnancy loss. I hope you enjoy today's chat. Thank you so much for coming on, Alicia. It's an absolute pleasure to have you welcome. Thank you so much for having me today. Yeah, it's my pleasure. So we're about to you can detect your necks in you in Australia or New Zealand. I'm in Australia. I'm in Port Melbourne. I've been here coming up eight years. So they're still I think it's ease I can't say properly apparently. But a lot of the time people don't pick it. I haven't read anything for accents. I really love imitating and doing accent. So it's like, I'm really like listening to how people talk and how they shape their mouth when they talk. So yeah, don't take it personally. It's not a while I still pretend that most people can't tell. I'll go with that. Yeah, cool. Idea. So whereabouts were you born? Or where did you grow up? So I grew up in Wellington and I moved over here when I was 35. But yeah, I spent most of my life in Wellington City for a little stint in Palmerston North when I went to uni, and that was it. In other words, yeah, Wellington for most of my life. Yeah, you are a podcaster can you share with us what, what your podcast is about and how it all came about? So my podcast is interviewing Australian women who have decided to take motherhood into their own hands by having child using donor conception. So it's called no need for Prince Charming and basically Plan A didn't work out or maybe that wasn't even your plan or you just didn't want to partner and you've gone on to to have a child alone. It was inspired because that's the journey that I've been having to take. It's been a long road to get to that point but at 30 I decided to have a child on my own because Plan A wasn't working out, though this will hopefully help inspire and empower other women who are considering this journey, because it's something I wish I had when I was going through. Yeah, it's I mean, it's certainly a lot more common than I think people realize. It's, I mean, personally, I've known I mean, I, my, my town's only got a 30,000 people. And I know two people, like friends of mine, that that have taken that journey. And I'm sure there's so many more, but we just don't hear about it. So yeah, like having having the podcast. In the end, you're very active on your Instagram, sharing the stories and sharing experiences. And I think that's really important. I think going into it, I knew one person that I worked with who had done it, but I didn't really know her to have a proper open conversation about it. And I had a different perception in my mind about who does this sort of journey. So I was very big on joining the Instagram community and finding a lot of other like minded women. And then once I start the podcast, I'm just blown away by the variety of people, and the variety of ways and stories that they've had to go through it. But at the end of the day, they all tend to be very strong, very determined woman. So I'm building an amazing village of incredible woman surrounded with which is fantastic. The reasons that that mothers decide to do this, what sort of reasons are they very varied reasons paths are for for quite a few. It's just, they've tried the internet dated, they've been married, they've had relationship failures, whatever else. And they just get to the point where they just haven't found the right partner to have a child with. And for me, personally, I am divorced, I went through a pretty, pretty rough time and went through three years of infertility, a lot of IVF and ended up unfortunately, my son was stillborn. And after that my marriage didn't survive. And what was it? Six years later, I still hadn't met anyone. I even tried moving countries to see if I could find my elusive Prince Charming. I've done all the dating sites, I've done everything, but just nothing close to a relationship. So the day my dad died was actually the day I decided to do this. I thought what was most important to me was finding a partner. But actually what was most important was having a mother. And I'm glad that it happened when it did. Otherwise, it could have been too late. And yeah, and now I have my beautiful little Alexandra and having a partner is probably the last thing on my mind. At the moment. I don't know how he'd fit in, to be honest. But my life is so full, and I feel so content and just feel how I was always meant to be. So if anyone else is in the same situation where motherhood is the most important thing to them, rather than compromise or do something slightly dodgy, like doing a one night stand or something. There are other options nowadays, and it is a lot easier than it used to be. Yeah. on that. Are there particular sort of rules in different states in Australia, about accessing the treatment or the procedures to get pregnant by yourself? Yeah, so all states are different. Of course, there was one thing that really surprised me about Australia. And so I'm in Victoria, which is one of the most regulated in Australia, you basically can only use clinic referral recruited sperm. So every donor will be based in Victoria themselves, they asked darling to tweak the rules a little bit that they might be able to do overseas sperm, but it does mean that each individual clinic has to recruit its own donors. And it can be quite hard for them to do that. So you might have, especially after the pandemic, people are finding very hard to get access to sperm. So whereas I had a choice of, I think, 30, and 14 of which were Caucasian, and I wanted my daughter to look like me, so I wanted a Caucasian donor. So I could have like a fun party with my girlfriends and have champagne and, you know, made sperm cookies and sperm, bruschetta, toasts, and we, we went through all the profiles and, and worked out which one we want to cut out heads for magazines, and we gave them names, you know, made a really big deal about it to try and make it really fun. Women going through it today might have a choice of two, if they're lucky. So it's a little bit different. So any men if you're listening, and you would consider being a donor, please go and contact a clinic. And there's a definite need for it. Now, there are quite a few rules in regards to how many families can be created from a donor as well. So you would have probably potentially seen a lot of media, especially coming out of the states, where you know, there's donors that I've got hundreds and hundreds of children all around the world. In Victoria you can only give to 10 families so potentially there are nine other families that my daughter has half siblings created. and they can have unlimited children in their family, but it's only 10 families total. Yeah, there are other ways, I suppose that you could go down this path using a known donor, or there are some that aren't clinic recruited, that are doing through websites and that sort of thing. And just have to be very careful, if you are going to go down that route is just there are a lot of legal potential implications and other things that could come about. So the safest way is to go either with someone that you know, and get the proper legal documentation, or to do it through a clinic. So also in Victoria, there's a governing body, I guess you call it called Vatta. And they look after managing all of the donor donors and donor recipients. And then in the future, if my child wants to make contact with her donor, they'll help manage that for us, because you can't actually be an anonymous donor anymore. So you have to be what's called an ID release. So when the child turns 18, they can get access to contact you. I was actually going to ask about that, like, what's the ramifications down the track if if a child decides they'd like to meet their, their biological father? Yeah, right, it's really interesting with that are as well, they do counseling and things before you make the donor. So they help facilitate their contact in the first place. And then you do counseling for yourself, your child and the donor before those meetings happen as well. So everyone's going into it in the best frame of mind to get the most out of it. A lot of donors will say that they are open to contact before the child is 18 as well, if the child wishes that. So that's something you can push through again through Varta. And I think all states are different. But I think Victoria is the best for that sort of support, which is great for us because we live here. Yeah, absolutely. And is there also screening or testing to make sure there's no genetic abnormalities or illnesses or Yeah, so it's actually quite a process. If you're going through a clinic recruited donor, I think they have to have they do a lot of blood test, and they do a donation, and then they have to wait six months, and they do another donation and do more health checks, just to make sure nothing's changed in that time. And when you get the donor paperwork, when you're selecting which one you want, it's got the full family history in that as well. So if they had some sort of, they're a carrier for some sort of, say chromosomal issue, potentially, they wouldn't be allowed to be a donor, or it will be clearly displayed on the billing profile, so you knew what you're getting into. But you can see you know, that your grandmother, the grandmother had cancer, or their father died of a heart attack, all of that sort of thing. So you've got the full medical history, if you're going clinic recruited, that you can see exactly what you're getting yourself into, because some people might have in their family a high chance of cancer. So they might want to avoid a donor that's got that as well to try and minimize and passing things on. So you get a lot of information if you do the clinic, recruited path. Yeah. Just another question. I'm finding this really interesting. When when you get that the little book to look through to see who you're choosing from, do they give you information on what they're like, personally, like, their traits and stuff like that? Like how much information do you receive about the donor, the mind is going back, what, three, four years now. And things have changed a little bit. But I got you get a list of the profiles was very simple information, like the age height, not the age, just the height, hair color, eye color, nationality, I think. And then from that list, you would narrow it down to the ones you want to get full profiles for the full profiles, then give the demographic demographic information for the parents as well. So you can see so I could sit there and do like my fifth form biology and I've got brown eyes, my dad had blue, there's a chance that you know, and hit his mother had green so and it worked out because she got Hazel, so bad, but you can do that sort of thing better than it also they answer some questions. And then it's up to the donor, really how much information they put in there. Some are very short answers. Some are very long, but it can give you a bit of an indication about their personality, my donor, specifically when I read his profile as that I know, I feel like I know if I met you in real life, we'd get on really well. We had very similar values. He was all about family and animals. And just the way he'd written his answers. I could have written that myself. So yeah, and there's there's a wide variety there's, you know, highly educated there are some concrete workers there's there's everything. So there should be someone for for everyone, because everyone has different tastes and what they're looking for. But you do get quite a bit of information. And since I, what had my success well, for my daughter, though, they have changed things and they have a new sort of donor Bank, which they call Adam, I went through City Fertility and that's that's who they use. And when I rang up because you can ring and find out if there are any siblings, you can't get much information, you can just know that there's one or not. And they had more information from him, including toddler photos. So I now have title photos of my daughter's donor, which is really interesting because I always thought she was identical to my dad. Yeah. And then I saw the donor photo and it's like yeah, so some some clinics give you a lot of information. I think if you're in other states, but particularly in Western Australia, they use more American sperm banks and you get a lot of information. Some people even get recordings so they can hear the voice of the donor. So there is quite a bit that you get. But it's not quite like the movies where you've looking through the books. Oh, that's so interesting. Thank you for sharing that. So I want to go back a bit to obviously you went through the journey, and you were compelled to share it. Why did you choose podcasting? Like, are you do you have a background in like, writing? Or have you done anything like this before? Or? Not really? No, I was actually asked to be a guest on a podcast, a girl in America who runs a similar podcast called The single greatest choice. And I did the first half of my episode, the day before I got induced, know, the day I got induced, I think, Oh, yeah. And then six months later, I did the follow up to and so from that, then I sort of started listening to them. I hadn't really listened to podcasts a lot. Before that, I used to listen to kind of self help motivational ones, maybe on my walk to work, but nothing specifically to pregnancy, or solely mom by choice. And then it just got me thinking, and I think I had her in the beginning of the pandemic. So I first year maternity leave was basically the two of us at home, and couldn't leave the house more than an hour a day. Yeah. And I didn't realize how much I would love being a mum, and how much I became myself as a result. And it just made me really want to help other women make that choice as well. The amount of women that I met who are a bit older than me, will I wish that had been an option or that I'd gone down that path. I didn't want other people to be in that situation. So I thought this is a resource that I could help create. And what was most important was that there was an Australian voice for it, because there were many podcasts around the world, but not specifically with an Australian voice. And of course, every state is different, what you go through, and just want to provide a variety of stories, but also give people hope. I have some people who got pregnant they first IUI I have people who've had to go to South Africa to get egg donors as well. You know, there's a wide variety. So no matter where you are on your journey, or what you're contemplating, hopefully you can find a story relate to. And that's fantastic. I think that's wonderful. On to the more about your podcasting, how did you find setting it up and getting into a week? Are you the sort of person that I was talking to someone else the other day about when they started their podcast, and we're comparing our styles? Do you need to have everything like organized ready to go before you do it? Or are you the sort of person that just does it, and then sort of works things out? As it comes up as you're going? I think I watched quite a few YouTube videos that I found. I didn't even know how to do the RSS feed or how it even got on to Spotify. So I just did a bit of Googling and research and I'd work that much out and was like, okay, so I need to get a website where I can do this all and then I need to find some guests and how am I going to record it. So just Googling again, I found some great YouTube content and just watch that and my garage band. Sure. That's already on my computer can't be that hard. Need a microphone. Okay, buy a microphone. And then I just put the call out on Instagram and just said, you know, if I was to do this, would anyone volunteer and immediately I had I think 15 woman go yes. It was like, Okay, I've got the bass, I can do this. And it's just, I just backed myself and the first one probably took the longest to record because that was my story. Yeah, yeah. You're always so critical of yourself and what you sound like and everything else. And I think honestly, one of the biggest surprises is people keep commenting on how nice my voices never had that my whole life. Like I could listen to you for hours. You're so relaxing. I'm like, Am I okay? My dad always told me off for talking too fast. So maybe maybe I've grown up with a microphone in front of me. I don't know. But yeah, it's and then yeah, I just I just winged it. I don't get it. A lot of it. I have basically the same format for all and it seems to work. I have some feedback along the way which I've tried to incorporate so making it less about pregnancy and more about the conception and then life. So yeah, same kind of format everyone kind of know As what's coming if they've listened to an episode? Yep. And just whatever they're talking about, I guess which is probably the same for you. Yes. Very similar. Yeah, I find it's good. I like to have the the rough idea of the way I do each episode. Same thing people know what's coming, but then yeah, wherever it goes, it goes and I like that because I think people will talk about what they need to talk about. And same thing I don't eat it too much for takeout in my library and you stumble over my words, so do be careful you, daughter, how old is it? You call it Alexei? I've noticed on your Lexie on your Instagram and she calls herself Alexandra though so she will be she was Alex to start with but she was had no here for so long. Even though she was wearing a lot of pink. Everyone thought she was a boy. So my favorite Grey's Anatomy character. Or I loved I was actually watching that this morning. I've been rewatching it rewatching all the rewatching it for like the fifth time. Yeah. That's easy background noise when you're doing other things. You know what's coming? So yeah, that's thing you you miss a little bit. You've you've sort of know where they're going to be at when you come back to it. They're not going to do anything radically different. I'm actually I'm up to the what I don't even know what season it is now lose track. But Christine has just like quit. And so Derek's taking her fishing, and it's like this. It's just hilarious. So anyway, so far, I'm at the point where Christina and Burke are just about to get married. So ah, yeah, that that's that's that's a long time back. Yes. But now it's it's really I love that show. I never used to love it. I thought I'd watched it because everyone else was watching it. And I was like, oh, what's the so I'm gonna watch it. And then I sort of got off of it. But now it's up and you can watch everything on streaming and just sit there and watch it all day long. And Shonda Rhimes is another Solomon by choice. Oh, there you go. He's up via adoption. But yes, she has three kids by herself. Yeah. So there are a lot of inspiring, very successful woman who have gone down this path as well, which I think that's an interesting lessons just on it, Natalie. Yeah, baby guy. And I think that, can that be? I don't know, I was gonna say it can be inspiring, but it's at the same time. Could that make? I don't want to say normal people, because we're all normal in some, you know what I mean, but non celebrities who have access to buckets of money, you know, you might think, well, they're doing it because they've got a nanny or, you know, that sort of thing. Like, so I guess it could go either way. Couldn't? Yeah, I made a real a long time ago, which had a lot of different celebrities that most people weren't even aware of had done it by themselves. Yeah. And I think it's just if you see a powerful, successful woman, and she has been able to have do it as well, because of my Hollywood romances don't seem to last very long do they? But there are other options. And if they can do it, why can we? Yeah, no, I think that's that's fantastic. So How old's your daughter now? She will be three at the end of April. And times three year old? Oh, yes. I've been seeing your journey with a giving up the debris. That's fine. It has gone surprisingly well. Very glad. But now we're battling. I don't want to go to bed. And now she's climbing out of a cot. And yeah, I was at 1030 last night, and I thought was 10. And in my bed, which I'm not overly keen on. But it also means that I'm not getting any time for me, which I struggle with a bit mentally because that's, that's when I have my creative time and go after all my passion projects that I'm doing. So you know what it's like with a two and a half year old, if you're in the room, they need to be doing whatever you're doing. So you can't do anything for yourselves. Yeah, I had some really good routines previously. Yeah. Yeah. They like to throw spanners in the works, right. So I'm about to start recording the next season is like, how am I going to fit this in? If you're not going to sleep? I don't want to just stick you in front of an iPad or night. It's not the best habit. So hopefully, we can get that sorted in the next couple of weeks. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was gonna ask like, how what? When do you fit in doing the things that you'd like to do? So when, when she's in bed, you just go to go to work? So I get up at five in the morning now. Oh, wow. So I have to read two to two and a half hours to myself in the morning and most of that the last year has been spent on the podcast or my book. But this year, I need to start prioritizing my health so I'm going to try my gets on doing some exercise in that time as well before I move on to the passion project, so yeah. And then I used to be able to do it when she went to bed at seven. And that gave me a few hours at night as well. But yeah, that's not going to work if she goes to bed at 10, so I can get that fixed soon. So your book, I'm guessing that's about your journey and your experiences? No, no, tell me what it is. It's actually an illustrated children's book. And it's trying to bring awareness and normalities and language associated with donor conception. So it's showing that that all families are beautiful and perfect, no matter how they're made, and that all kids are just the same as everyone else. So there is 12 families in it. And I've got everything, same six families, divorced families, widower, and solid mom by choice and just normalizing the language. So you know, if the same sex family they had their child as a result of a surrogate or it's written better than that, but and then with me, it's with the help of a donor. So just normalizing that language that ideally, kids will get to the stage where they say, oh, Lexi doesn't have a dad, she has a donor and not think anything more of it, and possibly comments and just completely normalized. So yeah, I'm just waiting for my first print run to arrive. Really excited. Oh, congratulations. That's so exciting. So did you did you illustrate as well, you knew, you. Give me another surprise. That was probably the hardest part out of all of it. So when you asked him before how I went about doing the podcast, this was something I've had ideas about writing books for, oh, my God, I don't know how long I've started my memoir, probably about 50 times, and never done it. But then I had the idea of doing a children's book. And then this idea kind of came to me that there's nothing really in the market that normalizes that language. I think my target market is, shall we call air quotes, normal, traditional families. So then if they've got, you know, little Sammy comes to school, and he's got two dads, how do I explain that to my child? Here's a book that just shows you all that. And it makes it really normal and really fun. So a woman that I'd met through Instagram had published some donor conception books, which are more targeted to couples who've had us donate eggs, or sperm, or I've done it by themselves and and talks more for the child about how they were conceived. And I didn't want to do another book like that, because there are a few out there. But I had a really good conversation with her to understand exactly what she went through. And then I got over that whole paralysis of how, and they had a clear plan. Okay, this is what I need to do to get it. The words were probably the easy part was finding an illustrator, that was the hardest. Yeah. And I went through a few through on Fiverr, and everything else, and I ended up putting a call out on LinkedIn and Instagram to see if anyone knew anyone. And then I got recommended my my beautiful illustrator through that. She's got a friend that's actually solid mom by choice, it was following me. And so then I got in contact with her and Oh, my God, I loved the process, like both here and I miss it. Because like, every day, she'd be drawing different pictures. And we'd be having calls on it and going, Oh, what about doing this and these changes and tweaks and, and she learned a lot on the process as well. She's comes from a very traditional family construct her husband's a detective, she's got three kids, she lives in a small town, Victoria, you know, very different from the world that she was, she was illustrating. But she managed to take the pictures out of my head onto paper. And I just love the result. And the collaboration that we did to do it as well was just a really beautiful process. So fantastic. So what did you call the book? My perfect family? Yeah, right. I love that. So when will people be able to get their hands on it? So pre orders are open now. And I'm just waiting for the first print run to arrive. And so yeah, you can order it now. And by the time this podcast comes out, I'm sure it'll be in my hot little hands. And I'll be sending it out and spending my nights fighting a toddler to package up books, but you know, that's okay. Oh, fantastic. So you've got a website? What's your website called? It's my perfect family. book.com beautiful. All right, I'll put a hyperlink in the show notes for people to click away on. Oh, well download. It's fantastic. I work in early childhood education. So I've worked in childcare, long daycare setting for nine years and now working kindergartens. And I'm really amazed by I want to say the quality of children's books and then the knock quality of children's books. There are some really really poorly written books and I think how the heavens did this ever get printed, like how did this get past the checking of what's appropriate? You know, and then there are some lovely books but I've never seen a book that is doing what you're doing so well done. I'm really excited on the graphic Copy. Yeah, I think there's some beautiful books out there that show different families. But they don't talk about how they made. Yes, yes. Hopefully just solve that little gap as well. And I'd love to get it into daycares and schools. And yeah, like I say, I think their target audience is actually more traditional families so that they can help explain to their children, that families made all sorts of different ways. But every family is perfect, no matter how they're made. So yeah, absolutely. And I've spoken a bit lately to particular people about getting children involved in social issues, and from a young ages possible, because when they get to a certain point, they're really led by what adults, what sort of beliefs that they hold, so then they put them on their children, they change, you know, the innocence of that what that child held before that point. So I really think it's yeah, this will be really, really helpful for adults too, because it can be a little bit confronting and confusing to know how to refer to people and how they like to be referred to, I think it's the whole thing of my daughter doesn't have a father, she doesn't have a dad. It's not that there, he lives in a different house, or overstays, although I don't know who he is, is that she doesn't actually have one, she has a donor. So the more we can normalize that language, and that kids just say she doesn't have one share the donor. And there's, there's an acceptable alternative that they can put in there instead of dad, then hopefully, that will help build acceptance out of everyone. So like you said earlier, you can get that information into kids, the better. Yeah, and then be like, Oh, they've got donor, oh, well, this, this family's got two mums, or they had to use a donor as well. Okay. Donors are useful for lots of people. Yeah. And it just becomes that's just the normal way of speaking. It's not, Oh, don't say that. Or do you know, like this dad, and I think it when I was growing up, yeah, growing up in such inclusive times anyway, then it's not going to be like, what it would have been for us in the 90s. You know, if someone didn't have a dad, it would have been very strange. And now we'll just be like, I have one. And yeah, it's really great time to be embarking on this, because there's so many different families. And I feel that they are all really accepted no matter how much how they constructed. Yes, great. No, I love it. And I put on Yum, that's fantastic. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. Now, I want to talk about your identity before you became a mom. So you mentioned before, it was really a really positive thing that becoming a mum allowed you to be become who you are sort of thing. How was that experience for you? It really, really positive, positive thing really? Yeah. So I think when I look back on it, as long as I can remember, all I wanted to do and all that determines success was for me was to get married and have children. I don't know where that's come from. If that was just, you know, I grew up in the 90s. And watching Beverly Hills nine to one, I don't know. But as long as I can remember, the most important thing was to find that husband. So I found a husband, and got married, when he eight turns out he wasn't the best husband for me. And I probably just settled because I wanted to tick those boxes, and have the husband had the white picket fence, everything. I also wanted the career. And that was kind of what defined me. So once I lost the husband and the big house, and the only thing that was left was my career. So I started focusing really strongly on that, and doing everything possible, and usually not in the best ways to find the new man and the husband. Number two, I was convinced. So New Zealand, you have to be separated two years before you can get divorced, I was convinced I would be engaged by the time, you know that I was divorced. And I think so much of my self worth and everything else was determined by whether I had a partner or not. Which is, in hindsight, very sad. But I haven't got to the point, I moved to Australia, and I contemplated freezing my eggs, but I thought no, what's more important is that I find that other person to share my life with and if it's meant to be a workout. And that was I think just probably bearing down the trauma of having to go through infertility for so many years. And Lester Watson and the rest of that. When I made this decision that night when I when I got pregnant, I had quite a bit of anxiety throughout the pregnancy after obviously, pregnancy after loss. But once I could start feeling her move and that sort of thing. I relaxed a bit more into it and I just I just had this overwhelming feeling that it was going to work out. And I just had faith from that one that I was going to and then went to it was just me and her. So like I said it was full pandemic. I think my last seven weeks of work. I was at home and then my neighbor dropped me at the hospital. So I could have stayed in the hospital for five nights came home. And then it was basically just us for the first six months. And it was just a beautiful little bubble, I didn't have to worry about work, I didn't have to worry about proving myself to anyone, I couldn't have visitors. So my house ended up being the tightest it's ever been. But you know, it wasn't that pressure because people were here or just because I had nothing else to do. They were so relaxed, she was a great sleeper. And either and I don't know, I just I just felt so content in myself and my own little life. And I still feel that way. Now. I mean, it's a bit bit of a hustle at the moment, because I have a full time job, as well as all my side things. And her and I want her to experience as much as possible and do things that, you know, interests here. So we're doing swimming lessons, and dancing, and all of that stuff. So it's a pretty busy life. And the thing that's gone is my social life. Yeah. But I don't need that. Like I used to. I used to fixate on that being a definition of how popular or how like there was whatever else and it's like going out to a bar is the least interesting thing possible to me right now. I want to spend it with quality people and doing quality things. And ideally, that involves my daughter as well. So yeah, life has changed considerably. And then a element. Yeah. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. So sure, I keep looking at your cat sitting there. Teresa. What what breed is she is Burmese and she had her teeth done last week, so it's just a bit too late today. She hasn't been very quiet since normally. She just jumps up and down on my desk and cries the whole time. So yeah, at least quiet. But yeah, she's seen a lot of meetings, like Jilin like, oh, I used to have a bit of maize. And his name was Teddy. And he was because she's gorgeous. What's your name? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, he was he was a beautiful boy. But he, when he came, sort of matured, he started attacking my other cat that he had leaving with us and older cat. And we ended up having to find him a new home. But she had a lovely home as a single cat. He just wasn't the sort of cat that could live for you. That was she had a brother, who I lost last year, a year ago. And then I got the dog. And they were not happy about that. And the old cat that her brother used to beat up the dog when we lost Rodrigo. Now knocklyon Let me like cuddle up together and things and nothing they protecting each other from the toddler states. Oh, love it. topic that I really like to talk about with mums is the concept of mum guilt. And I'm wondering what you think about that, if you have any thoughts on that. It's interesting one, I don't feel like I have much mum guilt. But then I questioned whether I'm doing a good enough job quite a bit lately, as and I think maybe the mum, guilt will come more as she gets older. And I think if I do not have the downtime to be able to have time to myself and pursue my things, that really starts taking a toll on me. And unfortunately, that can come out on her as well. So you know, if she's not going to be detained 30 My Yeah, not my best morning, I have never felt guilty about going back to full time work. And my mum and dad both worked full time, what I am very conscious of is that I don't want her to see me working and prioritizing work over here. So going back to work, I've had very strong boundaries, and I've managed to stick to them. So previously, before her, I would be working sort of 60 to 80 hours a week, sometimes now, you don't get me out of nine to 530. That's it. And I think going back to work and working from home for most of it because of the pandemic did help make that transition a lot easier. And we have really strong routines that mean that we have some quality time in the morning and we have quality time when I pick her up at night as well. And we try to do the same sort of things. So don't think that daycare is actually the best thing for her as well like being with your little buddies and what she's learning in that social interaction. So I don't feel guilty about that. And I don't think I'd be a very good stay at home mom anyway. My dream would be that I don't have to work for someone else. And then my book and whatever else I pursue, can allow me to have sort of an income where I can be the more present especially when she goes to school and she has no shorter days. I would love to be able to drop her off and pick her up each day and take Get your whatever activity she's doing and be more involved in her life rather than leave that to someone else. But my mum actually moved over here when I had my daughter. Yeah, so she lives 10 minutes walk away. So if it's not me, it will be it will be grandma. So I'm very, very lucky for that. But yeah, ideal world, by the time she's at school, I'll be able to be even more involved. She definitely is the priority when I'm not at work. So you're trying to get that balance between working from home and work in the office makes a big difference, as well for trying to have that quality time at home to just focus and do work and do most of my meetings. They when I go to the office, it's just back to back meetings all day. But take all those things off so that my days at home, I can just focus and get work done. So again, and then trying to do so like do the washing during the day, that sort of thing. That's always waiting for a meeting. Yeah. So again, when it's my daughter and I, it's just quality time, it's not doing bullshit chores and that sort of stuff. I knew you wouldn't put on your truck, that monkey, I just had a feeling that that wouldn't be like feel like it. It's yeah, I think that's awesome. I love that I once had someone, give it to people on who didn't have it. And one of them had to google it, because they just didn't even know what it was. And I thought that is so awesome. That's what we all should be like? Well, I think most of it is sending them to daycare, isn't it, but I think that's the best thing for him. Honestly, I feel guilty about that. I never feel guilty for that. Because I've been like I've been in that industry. And it is wonderful that the children thrive, the social interaction, what they're learning, and just the stuff that they can do there that they could never do at home. You know, it's just when you pick them up, you get these lovely compliments, and it's like, well, I must be doing something. No. And then the thing the other thing is by working full time, it means that I can afford the lifestyle that I want to give so I'm not gonna feel guilty about that. Yeah, I would rather have that and then struggle and have to worry about you know, if I had enough food to feed or or pay the bills, I'd rather be able to, you know, go to Fiji. Yeah. Yes, that'd be excellent. Have you done much traveling? The two of you. We went to New Zealand at the end of last year. I'm gonna say that was a trip not a holiday. It was it was hard work. New Zealand is not a great place for toddlers. And I think we probably went too long. But it was really important for mum to go. And it helped her solidify that she had made the right decision. So that was good. And it was lovely for me to be able to introduce Lexi to my friends that you know, haven't seen in years. But know next time I want kids clubs so that I get a holiday to sound sounds perfect. And I'm actually going with another solo mom friend that I've met through Instagram. It's one of those people like she feels like your bestie but we've never actually met in real life, but her daughter's similar act. So I think we'll have a really great time together. Oh, lovely. That's exciting when you get when you're doing that in June, so I'm going for my birthday. Love anymore does it so and you'll be escaping the Melbourne weather in winter two, which we love with that's usually not too bad. By this ages. I've could have lifted longer to really escape but it no good on Yeah, you got to do these things. So do you find that? Um, no, I think people and even families with young kids, regardless of whether they're, there's one parent or two can be really reluctant to do things with young kids because they're put off you know, this is going to be hard or whatever. Like do you have any advice for for people listening that might feel like that? No, I'm already feeling like it's gonna be hard. I'm hoping this time though, she'll be a bit more open to just sitting with the iPad on the plane. But the first time it was like this is all new. I did have to make a big call on it though. Stupidly, if I went via Sydney it would save me $1,100 Oh, so I had to really wait out but that's a lot of money. Yeah, to a save it and take nine to 10 hours to get there and have to get through like Sydney Airport with a bag and potentially sleeping toddler because we were getting to Melbourne and live 11 o'clock at night or something or do I just pay the money? And it's like, no, I'm just gonna pay the money. It's just easier just to fly direct get here hopefully have lounge access if I can Wingull that. And then just like direct and be there not two flights, having run in between and all the rest of it because it's the time at the airport I found was probably the hardest. When we went to New Zealand was coming home she just knows time of day. So it's like if you can get an early flight I think that we're really helped us or when they're going to likely sleep. But yeah, there's just no easy way I think to travel with kids. So just suck it up and go, because it'll be amazing once you're there. Let's see theory. Don't let it stop you from doing it. Just do it. Yeah, and it depends on the kid to like, they're so different, like my two, I've got seven years difference between mighty. And one, you could do so many things within the other one you've just been, you'd just be a full believer and try certain things. Oops, you know, it's it's like, you just never know how things are gonna work out. And you just don't know how much they're gonna change. And that time as well. I mean, that's six months from now. Yeah, be like a little angel. That's the or she could be a complete terror that wants to run around the whole plane. I'm not sure. Let it put me off booking. So yeah, that's what you said a time. Yeah, no good on. Yeah, I think that's really good. Other things that I wanted to trips we want to take, but I just need to wait till she's older. Like I can't wait to take it to Disneyland. But there's no point doing that until probably about eight and actually appreciate it properly. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. So you talked before about the needing to do your passion projects like that as your outlet is that is that something that you really hold on to is as something that's really important to you and, and part of who you are? I think so I think previous to Lexie, it was my outlet was sewing in the did a lot of that. And when my first year maternity leave again, I still did a lot of sewing and I was making a lot of things for her. But now it's going to, I've got a why, since I've had her. It's I'm so passionate about creating these things. And actually having follow through as well. I think I've been someone who's always had a lot of ideas, but just not the courage to back myself to follow through with them. And I want her to see me as someone who does that, so that she can be encouraged that she has ideas, she can just go ahead and go after her dreams as well. And I think maybe it started with my dream was to become a mom and I had the follow through to have it on my own. So if I can do that, I can do anything. And I think getting really clear. So I did some some dream life work through an is Kiki K book or something and that I would love, I would love to not have to work for someone else. And so it's finding one of those things, and I guess getting over the imposter syndrome a lot of the time as well. To say, you know, I can be that person and I can do these things and that there is worth and what I'm doing and I think the podcast was the first start, the fact that I have people volunteering, I haven't really had to go out too hard or chase people down. And I've got enough to do the full season. And I've already got, you know, the first few months of next of this year, done, I just have to eat at them. Sure you put that off to like, I can do that. And that was successful. I just need to work out a way to monetize it. And it's like, now I've got an idea for a book. Why not? It's just understanding the how to do it. I'm getting the networks that will back what I do as well. And it's helping them help their kids. So yeah, yeah, good on. Yeah, I love that. It's very inspiring. It's awesome. Have you always felt like that throughout your life? Or is that something that's happened as you've gotten older, do you think? I think I've always had ideas, and I've always ideally would work for myself. But I've just never had the courage to do it. And I haven't I think I've been surrounded by the cheerleaders that I needed to do that. And now, I guess I've got the cheerleaders in the online community, but it's also I've become my own cheerleader with things. Yeah, but it's also who I've met, that can help and to actually ask for help. So you know, talking to Nat, who'd already published her book to understand how she did and I basically just completely copied exactly what she did. It's just with my illustrations and my words, but you know, the same size book so that I know that all fit into a certain size envelope, so that I can put it as a large envelope instead of having to pay package, you know, postage and all those sort of things. Yeah. Consider things when you can just learn from someone who's already done it. So yeah. And then doing a few kind of self development courses as well. Just to really get clear what my vision is. And what why I want the life that I do for Lexi and I and I think it's because I want it so much for her. Yeah, it just gives me that real drive to try and create it. I've got it really clearly in my head what it looks like and I can't wait to have that with her but it's gonna take some work so she needs to go to sleep that's a part in the plan because she all she has to do is go to sleep. Go to sleep and we're going to have an amazing yeah, yeah. I have funny. Oh, that's great. So obviously, in the future, you've, you've got the book coming out, which is so exciting. I'm really excited to get a copy of that, actually, and to take it to my work T. What can you share this coming up, I would love to actually write my memoir. Like I said, I've started about 50 times, I would think there'll be really, and I think the ending has changed so much, and what the focus would be has changed so much as well, that exists every, every year, it evolves a little bit more. And I think I'm probably getting to become one of the best versions of myself at the moment. So the journey of how I got to that, and maybe it's just part a, I don't know, but I'd love to do that. But again, that's going to take considerable amount of my child being asleep to write that. I've got other ideas about building a body more resources and community for other women embarking on this journey, and, and to help support them just to kind of have everything in one place, really. So if you're thinking about, you know, finding information needs, maybe some online courses and that sort of thing. But again, for that it's time and getting over impostor syndrome, I think is the biggest one for them. I've got the domain name and I've got the Instagram page. I just haven't done anything with it. It's got to coming soon. So yeah, right. It makes you do solo solo mum society. So Oh, I love it. I've got a cool name. Yeah, do something. Yeah, no good on. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. I really love chatting with you. And I've learned so much. And I'm sure a lot of my listeners have learned a lot to you. So thank you for sharing. So honestly, it's been great. Yeah, and all the best so I'm really excited for you. If you want to learn more, no need for Prince Charming is the podcast on my Instagram page. So I share probably way too much on that but good on. Yeah, that's awesome. Thanks again, if the music you heard featured on today's episode was from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Elise Addlem Australian philosopher + feminist S2 Ep75 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Today I am very pleased to welcome Elise Addlem to the podcast, a philosopher and feminist based in Europe, and a mum of 1. Elise is an Australian philosophy educator with a background in academic philosophy (MA) and Early Childhood Education. After teaching philosophy at an academic level and to the public, and working with kids, Elise became passionate about public philosophy. In particular, she is developing resources and courses on feminism, neoliberalism and general philosophy for parents. She believes that philosophical and intersectional feminism connects directly to our everyday, lived experience. Elise is passionate about sharing her ideas and encouraging others to challenge norms and think critically, and putting ideas into practise in realistic and achievable ways ... and bring to the public the academic ideas without the condescension and jargon. Connect with Elise Instagram / YouTube / Website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mothers work is influenced by their children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for tuning in. It's a pleasure to have you back if you're a regular listener. And if this is your first time, welcome. It is such a pleasure to have you here. Today I'm pleased to welcome Elise Adlam to the podcast. Elise is a philosopher, and a feminist based in Europe, and she's a mom of one. Elise is an Australian philosophy educator with a background in academic philosophy, and early childhood education. After teaching philosophy at an academic level, and to the public, and working with kids, Elise became passionate about public philosophy. In particular, she's developing resources and courses on feminism, neoliberalism, and general philosophy, parents, she believes that philosophical and intersectional feminism connects directly to our everyday lived experiences. Elise is passionate about sharing her ideas, and encouraging others to challenge the norms and to think critically. And to put those ideas into practice in realistic and achievable ways. And to bring to the public the academic ideas. Without the condescension and jargon. I discovered Elise by Instagram. And I really resonate with her thoughts, and her opinions and also the ways that she shares these. And I really hope you enjoy hearing from her today. And I encourage you to check her out on Instagram, her YouTube and her website. The music used on today's podcast is from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, M Anderson, and her husband, John, thanks so much for tuning in. I really hope you enjoy today's chat. Thanks so much for coming on. At least it's a real pleasure to meet you and to welcome you today. You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me on your Instagram. I'm sure you might be on other platforms. But I've come across you on Instagram. Yeah, what you're doing is awesome. And I just had to have you on the show. We're not going to spin it that you're an artist of any kind. Yeah, because you do creative to get your point across. But I just wanted to have you on because you're one of those people I really resonate with. I really love what you're sharing. And the way you share it too. It's very concise and straightforward. So without me blabbing on can you tell us what your sort of pedagogy and childcare? Your your? Yeah, like your one on one? Yeah. Yeah. So basically, my background is in childcare, I worked with kids for quite a long time. I studied it a little bit. And then I worked as a nanny for a long time. And that was at the same time as studying for a lot of years, I was studying philosophy. So I did my undergrad degree, that took me a long time, then I did my honours that we have in Australia. And then I did my masters overseas. And so yes, I was really interested in academia. But as I went on, I really came to become more interested in what I like to call public philosophy. So basically bringing philosophical ideas to the public. And I thought it was really important to do that in a way that's digestible in a way that people can understand. Because often it seems like philosophy is something that's really removed from society and people will purposely or not be talking about things in a way that's really hard for people to understand. I think that it doesn't need to be that way. And I really wanted to try and communicate things to people in a way that makes sense. Because why do we have all these big ideas, these ideas about society if we can't communicate them, as well as that? When I worked with kids, and then when I became a mother, I really got focused on this idea of how we can communicate these ideas to children and to parents because I think the children have these amazing minds where they're so so open minded. They don't have these constructs in their minds yet, like we come to Have which societally given to us, and which we are given through certain binary ideas through the schooling system, and just through the progression of, I guess how our, how our minds grow. So, yeah, that came to be really interesting to me. As well as that, obviously, the as well as that political philosophy and ethics is really important to me. And, obviously, so many problems with the capitalist system with patriarchy, and things like that affects parents, particularly mothers. And so all of that I kind of try and bring together in this way that I can, yeah, I can share with people on social media. What sort of got you first got, and it's interesting. I didn't realize you're in childcare before. That's my I was in childcare for nine years. Now, I'm in the kindy system. So I'm sort of switched into. Yeah, it's very interesting. But what got you interested in philosophy? Do you remember sort of what was the Yeah, I do. I do. So yeah, the childcare thing. I mean, to be honest, that was a way for me, because I always love kids. That was a way for me to work while studying because I mean, to be honest, I just didn't want to do retail or something like that. For years. I loved working with kids. And I thought, why not do that at the same time. And it's such meaningful work. It's really difficult work. But it's so meaningful, and impactful with the philosophy, so I grew up in a working class background, and I didn't even know philosophy existed until I went to uni. I was the first one to go to uni, my family. I'm the oldest of my siblings, my sister also ended up going. But yeah, I discovered it before that I was really interested in literature and writing. And they're really linked, I think, because it's both to do with ideas. So yeah, I took that first philosophy class in first year, and I kind of had my mind blown. I thought, well, you can talk about all these ideas and think about things. And then it took me a few years to sort of realize, yeah, this is something I'm really interested in and want to do. But it is quite a, it's quite a tough area to be in, in the, in the sense that I mean, you probably know, within neoliberalization of education, all levels of education, higher education, really, the number of positions in the humanities departments is very, very low. And like, the grind for academics is really, really hard. And so yeah, so actually, I'm completely obsessed with it. But I'm still wondering, Am I going to go on and do my PhD? I think I have this pardon me, you know, this academic part of me that really wants that, because that's like, you know, like to have that recognition from academia that I was trying so hard in. On the other hand, after I had my daughter, I really, you know, I thought, I don't want that life. I don't want the life where I'm just grinding away, barely seeing my daughter. And if we have more kids having to move everywhere, just for these jobs where you barely get paid anything. You don't have job security. So yeah. I think that I kind of had to work through my ideas of what it means to do philosophy. And and yeah, and I think this idea of public philosophy is kind of a white assault that I like that it's like, yeah, you're not completely consumed by that. Academia world where at night, it's almost like the outside world doesn't exist. You go to high school, you go to in you go to uni, and you stay in this system forever. You've come. Like, honestly, I had a few years out of it anyway. Because I, I went, I went straight from school to uni. And then I kind of had, I realized that because I initially thought I wanted to the journalism then I kind of dropped out ahead a few years and then I went back. And I kind of did it a slow way. Just because I had to work and things like this as well, you know, like, and then yeah, I, but what I've observed and experience with people, there's this there's a really insular quality to academia. I don't know about other departments, but particularly in philosophy, maybe because it's to do with ideas. It can become really abstract. And sometimes the things you hear are just not related to people's real lives, you know, like, there will be people should do this, or people should behave this way. It's just not recognizing the real nature of life, the real struggles people go through, you know, like, because there is a elitist quality to university, and there are still a lot of privileged people there. Mostly, of course, white men, especially philosophy has mostly white men. And I mean, I'm a white woman, you know, I'm not, I'm not a black or brown woman, I'm, I live in a smaller body. So I also don't experience I'm able bodied. So you know, even having said all of that, I feel like I experienced a lot of I don't know whether I would call, I wouldn't call it discrimination, but just little microaggressions and things like that, you know, you feel it, you feel that you're not the main type of person. So, yeah, so that's another one of the reasons why I think I maybe don't suit that, huh. Yeah. And like you said before, there can be this sort of particular way of speaking, like you said, whether it's deliberate or not, it's almost like a condescending way that like, you don't know this. So I'm going to say, I really, really dislike this. And I admit that I drank the Kool Aid as an undergrad. Because I think because when you're learning and you're thinking, wow, this is so exciting, I need to be, I need to be that person that I admire you who can talk in this way. So using all these neologisms, all the all these new words that have been made up? And, yes, sometimes, for sure, that can be helpful for the theory. But if you've made up a term, you can also then explain what that term means. And yeah, I just think, I guess that some, some people are, you know, really made for theorizing, and some people are made for teaching. And I feel like maybe teaching is my, my thing. You've got a very sort of down to earth approach with that, like, you can see that it's an important thing. And we've all got to, you know, challenge these, the norms, and this critical thinking is really important. But then you actually have to be able to put into practicing in your life in a realistic way. You can't just be barking theories and ideas at people. To be honest, yeah, I mean, some people do do that. And it frustrates me a lot. This is one gripe I have, of course, it's not everyone. There are some fantastic people there. And, you know, some just amazing people that are so down to earth, and that really are fantastic teachers and are able to communicate things in a really clear way. But there are also a lot of people that just aren't interested in doing that, to be honest. They're not interested in the real world in there. Yeah, exactly. Well, to be honest, the all the ones you know that the other ones they've never been in the real world things you hear from people, you know, these older men who their father was in academia, then they were in academia, and they literally maybe have never caught public transport. Or they've never, you know, they've never done a job, they've never had to, you know, serve someone at a takeaway plate, or MCAS or something, or they've never had to, you know, get yelled at by a boss in retail, or you know, just those everyday things that are part of life for most people. And so then to then theorize what a good life is, or what we need to fix in the world. Wanted to ask you about you mentioned Neo liberalism, and that's something that you do know about a lot on your Instagram. Can you explain to people who might not be familiar with what it's about? Of course, yeah. So I think it's important first to talk about what liberalism liberalism is, and then neoliberalism came after. So liberalism, generally came from the enlightenment. So this was a movement in France, in Germany in the UK, in the 17th century, that focused on the liberation of people from a kind of, I guess, cloud of closed thinking now. The idea was that we should be free to To govern our own lives. So, thinkers like Immanuel Kant, John Jacques Rousseau, who some people might have heard of, they had these ideas that people should be able to govern their own lives, they should be able to choose what they do insofar as it doesn't hurt, but as long as it doesn't hurt other people. And importantly, they should be free to think, in a free way, not restrained by outside ideas. Importantly, at this time, their context was a religious society. So it's important to mention that we're still religious men. And this is the interesting thing, perhaps because of the times, but they, they believe that these rules shouldn't govern all of society. So that was super important to be. So to have your thoughts led by reasoning, by thinking does this make sense? Instead of buy doctrine from the church. So this was an enormous moment, because really, at the time, you know, people still couldn't read. So a lot of people still couldn't read, only the elite could read. So that means that if you were told something by a religious leader, that is the truth, you didn't come to truth, by some sort of scientific process or some process of reasoning, it was just what you were told. So this was a huge, huge moment. Then we also have lived in come to have liberalism as a political system. So this is a system in which in which people should be free to do what, sorry, people should be free to do what they want. Or sorry, I'll say it again, people should be free to do what they want, insofar as it doesn't hurt other people. And people should have their rights protected to be free. Now, neoliberalism then, is a political system that began in the 1980s. So in America, you had Ronald Reagan in the UK had Margaret Thatcher, who people probably might have heard of these people's names, because they're pretty important. Australia, I don't remember who we had. So basically, they were really pushing for everything to be privatized. The idea of near liberalisation is that anything that is owned by the government, any sort of welfare state, so a welfare state is like, where the where the government will give people a pension, where they'll give people disability payment, they'll give people payment, if they are without a job, they will give and all these other things like they will fund the schooling system fund, hospitals, even some things we don't even think about, like the Postal Service, ambulances, everything that is public. The neoliberal process, made all of these things private. So that means that companies, some, some rich person bought it. And then that is now owned by a private person. That means that there's no longer this sort of idea that it's a public good, or it's something that everyone should be able to use just because they live in this society. Rather, it will be something that you have to pay for, and that will be based on whatever the company decides. So this process was a really ideological one. And it meant that so many things were privatized, to varying extents. So we've seen the we see in the UK, and particularly in America that so so many things have been privatized, that society comes to disintegrate. So in Australia as well, we had it. But America is really kind of the hallmark of this because in America, even things like the Postal Service has started to be privatized, we see that the schooling system has just been absolutely gutted. And you know, teachers even have to pay for their own resources and things like this sometimes. The other important thing that I do talk about a lot. I hope I'm not explaining in too much detail. No, this is great. Okay, so the other thing that's really central to this that I love talking about is the idea of the neoliberal individual. So going back to the enlightenment, the idea of individualism is really invented, at least in Western thought. So like I said before, enlightenment thinking and liberalism was based on this idea that we should be able to be free as individuals. So then we start to have this idea of an individual, I think that now we probably don't even think about it because, you know, we just think we're all people. We're all separated. But this is actually a really cultural thing and a really I really within our historical context, some societies today don't have this idea, you know, they're more collective societies they don't think always i. So this was brought to light through this enlightenment process. And this kind of shows how these ideas do affect real life, because first of all these thinkers came up with them, then they come to be proliferated, or, or they reach the world, through governments and through leaders through schooling. And eventually, it becomes common sense thinking that we are just all these individuals who are separated from one another. And the most important thing is that I get to choose what I do, and I am in competition with you. In neoliberalism, this becomes even harsher. So like, like I said, before, under neoliberalism, there's really this idea that the government should not infringe upon our rights. Because if the government is doing anything to it, if the government is telling us anything to do, then that is immediately an infringement upon our rights. And it's interesting, because in philosophy, we have these two ideas. They're called positive and negative freedom. So positive freedom is my ability to act. So I am free to do, I'm free to do something. Negative freedom is something that was completely forgotten in neoliberalism. But it's something that's also really important, it's when you are given some restrictions that allow you to be more free. So for example, they protect you. So for example, you can really think about it, I think, a really easy way is when you think about a toddler, right? With a toddler we're always trying to do, we were always having to protect them from doing certain things, or we're always having to sort of given the conditions in which they can flourish. Because if that if they are just if they're just allowed to do anything ever actually, they can't develop and they can't become self governing people. Because they can't become people that can look after themselves as human beings that you need these restrictions on yourself. So other ways. Other things that would be examples of negative freedoms are like a schooling system, you have to, you have to learn this in this, these in these things, mathematics, reading, and things like that. So that you will actually be able to be more free in the world, because you have then have this logical understanding of how things work. You can read and write, and so you can manage yourself in the world. Neoliberalism kind of completely did away with this idea. And I think that that's a real detriment. So everything is rather just seen as a intervening on an individual who, who really needs to be deciding 100% for themselves all the time, what they should do. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's also Yeah, it's also a huge mistake, because of course, we are still living in a society and we, everyone has roads, right? There's still a push for good. There's still a social thing, we still always have stuff that is part of society that actually taxes and the government has given us. So I think it's kind of misunderstanding the world. But yeah, this is so important to me, because I just think that this really impacts every everything we do, really every part of our lives. It seems to me, sorry, that's not a way to start a sentence that sounds like I'm gonna say something really profound, but I'm not. I've never really learned about this in like a steady kind of way like I'm aware of. But I sort of find it so interesting that it seemed to start out as a good idea that you question things and you learn things, but then at some point, it's just gone to the extreme kind of like, when did it become a good idea not to support people in our society that need help, like, yeah, it just and that's, I think worth, like Thatcher has got such a poor reputation in a lot of cultures. Yeah, in a lot of circles, because she just, it was like, I don't know if I enjoyed watching her portrayal on the crown on that series. Yeah, it was fantastic. Ryan, I really liked it. If anyone wants to learn about Aaron in an accessible way, that's a really good introduction. It's not all true, obviously. But I also I also really enjoyed that because I think they did portray really well. How Yeah, kind of the her really special nature because she was a very special person, I think an interesting political figure, not one that I agree with a lot. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely an interesting path for now. And it was interesting to see the conflict between, you know, two women I'm taking this in a different direction now. But in the term feminism, something that I'm really all over I love the other day, it seems like the other day because I happen so quickly. But when, when Liz truss became prime minister in the Yeah. And everyone was like, Oh, it's so it's a woman, we should all be so happy. And I felt like saying, but will we all happy with, you know, Thatcher? And she was yeah, you know, this this? I don't know. Absolutely universal. I mean, just because it's a woman. You know, it's really a simplification, I think. And yeah, I really agree with you. I'm exactly the same. I think just because it's a woman, it doesn't mean it's suddenly going to be fantastic. And I we still have, and this is the importance of I think when when feminists are being intersectional, which has, you know, this idea that we look at all these different ways that people are disempowered, different power structures. So yeah, she's a woman. But she's already within this power system. You know, so she and she already has these values. So, you know, she just because she's a woman, doesn't mean that she's immediately going to stand up for women stand up for black and brown women stand up for trans women, you know, urge poor women? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I thought, yeah, there was a lot of that. That was funny. That was a funny, funny few weeks in the UK, wasn't it? My gosh, I listen to BBC Radio, like at night. Overnight, I have an EN. And gee whiz, even they were just, you know, for country that everything's meant to be proper and seem to be right from the Yeah, I? Yeah. Gosh, I mean, I think my husband and I were talking about a lot. And we, I don't know, I kind of have an idea that it's like a bit of a falling empire. Like in the, in the past, you know, it was this world empire that really, obviously colonized everywhere, you know, an empire and in a terrible sense, usually empires a lack of that they do a lot of colonizing and all these terrible things. But yeah, it was an empire. And you know, they thought, the leader of progression and it's not that anymore, and it's interesting. Yeah, it's not in a very good situation. So nearly realism, bad putting it? We don't like it. We don't like it. Yeah. What, what's the opposite to that? Is there a term that Yeah, yeah, tell me all about that. Look, I never, I never like to just prescribe and say, Look, this is 100%, what we should do, we always say, to look at the individual conditions of a particular society. So every society is different. But in general, I argue that a social welfare system would be much better for a system of government where there are these basic protections for everyone. So all these things we talked about. So you know, childcare would be affordable, the minimum wage would be really high so that everyone can afford to live. Health care would be really accessible to everyone, there'll be a universal health care system. They wouldn't schooling wouldn't have public and private schooling, you would just have a schooling system that was accessible to everyone. There would be less of a gap between rich and poor. And at the level of decide ideology, or the idea of the individual, there would be less of a sense that we all need to be completely separate from one another, and more of a sense that we do live in a collective and that we are as human beings, in our very nature. We are collective beings and that we do flourish, we live better lives when we're more connected to one another. So there would also be these grassroots and bigger level structures that really facilitate us always connecting with people. I think that then people would also be flourishing, they'd be leading better lives, but they would also hopefully be less lonely and less isolated. Hmm, yeah. Yeah, this sort of it's such a weird Student thing, isn't it that we've all got to be in tune, we've lost this sense of, you know, it takes a village, you know, that still rings dry. So many countries, it literally does take a village because you've got everyone around you look at even in even my husband's culture, he's not Australian. I just see how people behave. And it's so different. You know, like in Australia, we kind of have this idea that we'll all help each other. And it's kind of true. But when I see it in these small collective cultures, it's just a totally different thing. Like you don't even I don't know you, you don't people don't even think about it. It's just part of life, you know, that you everyone's always helping one another. You never really feel alone. Sometimes it's the opposite, you know, you feel feel smothered by people. But I don't know, even things like, look, I think when it comes to being a mother, which is obviously something that both you and I are really interested in being a mother, you know, mothers are so isolated. In Australia, America, Canada, these so called Western countries, because we've been told we have to do it all alone, it doesn't make any sense. Even. You know, we have that these ideas that grandparents, you know, they shouldn't be around the family all the time. And I'm not I'm not saying that they have to have to be some slave to their grandchild or something. You know, everyone has their individual circumstances. But but you know, that other cultures do have a different idea of family where, where you're just always together and you're, you're coming popping in and out. It's not the scheduled thing where you know, you're like, Okay, well, Grandma will look after you on set at Saturday from two to four. And then I don't know, it's more just like, more of a floor. Yeah. So yeah, I think we've kind of gone wrong in that way. It's really, it's really sad thing. Yeah, I can, I mean, people are becoming more aware. And I think it's something we can change, you know, you know, if we, if we recognize a problem, I think we can start to change it. Absolutely. And that's what I love about this, like, you know, so many people on social media, and through podcasts, and all sorts of things that are saying how they feel about things, and questioning, you know, just because we've always done this a certain way. Why do we have to keep doing it this way, is really important. The really important thing is we haven't always done it this way. And this is something that is really, really what happens with ideology, you know, an idea becomes the main idea about something. And then the best the way it works, the best is that everyone thinks, well, we've always done this, you know, I've heard people say, like, with capitalism, a woman and older woman said to me, we've always done it this way. University has always been, you know, really expensive. And I said to her in your life, it was free. Like, in your own life, not not only so it's amazing in the cultural imagination, how we can forget. Yes, that is very true. That is a good point. Yeah. And it's almost like, whatever idea is at the forefront of the time, that that idea wants us to forget everything else. Sort of going down. Yeah. Yeah. No. with critical thinking, because you know, this idea of thinking about things and picking apart why something is the way it is, particularly Yeah, for kids because I think that you know, if they grow up always picking things apart. I hope that then there'll be a little bit less, like you said, brainwashed or a little bit less accepting of everything. Yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. Talk about this idea of introducing children to these to the, to the notion of critical thinking and to social what is you had something really good on your Instagram? Social justice? Oh, social justice concepts? Yeah. I said, You should introduce them from the very beginning, rather than sort of when they're old enough to what we think old enough to understand them. Yeah, I guess my big thing for me is that we can really break this down into ways that kids can understand whether because, yeah, I worked with kids a lot. I have my own kid. And I think it's really fun to think about for me as a challenge. Think about how we can break them down into things Kids will understand. So you really got to bring them to their level. So, yeah, if we're going to talk about social justice concepts with little kids say toddlers, we got to think, what are we really talking about with social justice? You know, we're talking about inequalities in the world and the way that some people are prejudiced against other people. Some people don't get as good a life as other people. We're really talking about what's fair, aren't we, that's the basis and you know, actually, we talk all the time to kids about what's fair, anyway, because we're really, we're teaching them this, they don't sort of come out and have an idea we anyway, we have to teach them. So why not then bring it up already, you know, in ways, you know, when I've talked to people, um, for example, on my Instagram, I've collaborated a bit with this wonderful woman Kinesia, and she does work on anti racism. And she says that, you, you, you need to actually name the things you like pretending, not saying black, not saying that kid is black, that's not going to help anyone, if they are black. And there are differences, we need to point them out and point out how they're beautiful. And point out how they're great and interesting. So you know, from the very beginning, when we're reading books with kids, make sure that they're diverse books and say, Look, you know, that mommy has white skin, that Daddy has black skin, that mommy has red hair, that day has brown hair, it's sort of you know, everyone's different. And that's what's special about us. And that's what's beautiful. And then you can point out instances, you know, in the playground of like, people being, I don't know, maybe, you know, that kid was being mean to that other kid, because they're smaller than them. That's not nice. Because just because they're bigger than them, that doesn't mean that they should be allowed to push the person around. And they you're talking about power structures? Yeah, but it's not. Yeah, I think I'm not being naive when I say that all these things are connected, I think that you're, you're setting them up to think about these things. And I just think that children are so so capable of thinking, you know, the questions they come up with are just the most amazing questions. So we should just really kind of feed into that. Yeah. And, and you're right, like kids, they don't come out. Like, we were the same, you know, we were little the world has formed us into who we are by, you know, the concepts in the world about racism, and, you know, all those sorts of negative judgment of other people. Yeah. And if we can sort of be aware of that, and I don't know, not to that to our kids like, exactly, putting it. Yeah, like, Yeah, I think we can never be, you know, part of human nature is to group ourselves. That is something which, you know, I think there's always going to be, it's always going to be a process of learning and unlearning, and it's never going to be a thing where I'm like, now I don't, now I'm not prejudiced against anyone. I like to kind of pull myself I mean, take it that I'm always racist, you know, I have internally not on purpose, but I'm always gonna have inside me, or I'm always I always have misogynistic ideas. So I always have ideas about men and women that are based on their gender that I've learned, because these are internal, we're always going to kind of have them to a certain extent. And as much as we try for our kids, they will have different prejudices, or the same ones that continue. So it's also teaching them to constantly question those as well. And to say, it's not that not to feel guilty not to say that I'm a bad person, because of this, that doesn't help anyone. But just to say, look, I'm not perfect, no one is perfect, but we're trying to build a better world. And let's kind of all be vulnerable in saying that none of us you know, none of us have pure thoughts or something like this, you know, but we're all we're trying. Yeah, we were all doing our best. Exactly. We're all doing our best, be realistic and just try our best. Yeah, I think that children are capable of, you know, of taking on the complexity of the world. And you know, like, yeah, you're not gonna say, you're not gonna make it kids obsess about it, or something. You're not gonna be like, but also we, you know, and this is something that it's hard for all of us. It's hard for me, children are people and they're, you know, they have all different emotions, like everyone, they can't be happy all the time. And, you know, so it's not a bad thing that they feel sad. And I think when when we grew up often, there was this idea that you just shouldn't point these things out. You shouldn't talk about it. Yeah, at least where I grew up, and yeah, and yeah, but If you didn't see it, right, like, as a kid, you're kind of confused because you're like, why someone talking about this stuff? And then you think it's a bad thing to even address or talk about, I kind of feel like we're living in a different context now, because we live in a much more global society. And, you know, we have access, and our kids have access to people from all over the world via the internet, and, and I kind of knew that they might grow up having a more global sense. And having said that, yeah, I think the only way things really change in the end is kind of at a smaller level. So that's it, isn't it? Yeah. But I was gonna rely on it today, we decided it was a good idea not to use plastic straws. And on the, you know, it's just one straw said, you know, 13 million people, you know, so it's like, every single person and do something. And yeah, you know, it does start with little actions. And I don't think exactly, the value of those. Exactly. I'm always kind of the arguing that the minute that it needs to be we need to as individuals push for structural change, we need to stop, you know, governments and big companies from doing the things that they are because often with this, with our society being so focused on individuals, they, the dialogue on purpose is pushed towards these individual changes. So yeah, for us are important, but as long as they speak, all companies is still mining. And still, you know, as long as governments are still in Australia, you know, the government is heavily heavily embedded with a big mining companies. As long as this is the case, then, if we recycle, that's only going to do so much that's going to be both. Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that. Yeah, for sure. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. I want to read out one of the quotes that you have on your Instagram, completely relate to and I love it so much, I want to frame it and put on my wall, a mother's identity and sense of self is tied to the and then in brackets, lack of social recognition she receives for her labor. Now that basically in a nutshell, is how I felt. After I had my child, my identity went down the drain, because all I was expected to do was look after a child and I kept thinking, I'm so capable. I've worked full time I've done all this stuff. But now all society wants me to do is sit on the floor and play with this baby. And it just felt so weird. And I was challenged very much. So yes, yeah, that's, that's, um, yeah, I think so many of us go through this. And you know, on the one hand it is there are two sides to it. On the one hand, you have that. For some, for some women, this is so monotonous. And this is just, you know, women are told that they need to absolutely love being a mother every single moment. And this is a this is a patriarchal idea, because it's based on the idea that women are just naturally made to be nurturers. This is your God given role. And some women simply don't feel that and that's totally okay. And, you know, one person isn't meant to completely bring up a child. On the other hand, I think that capitalism really puts this emphasis on our job, and our identity is totally tied to our job. And I talked about that a little bit in the in the Instagram post. So identity is so tied to our job that when we go on maternity leave, have this complete identity crisis. You know, it's an existential crisis, that just means crisis related to our understanding of the meaning of life existentialism, yeah, meaning of life. So yeah, whole idea is what does my life actually mean? I'm not doing anything, and that's because doing is always within capitalism producing. Yeah, and also, I'm not earning a wage for this. And so therefore, this is meaningless. When actually what you are doing is you're contributing to society by bringing human beings into it. You know, you this is a huge part of it. I mean, this is one of the biggest ways that you are contributing to society, like babies fundamentally cannot look after themselves. So Yeah, so I think that we're kind of women and mothers are really put in this catch 22 situation you can't win either way, right? If you stay home, you want to be a stay at home mom, no, you're not doing anything meaningful, you're not producing. And then you're in your, you know, even some people will say, Are your bad feminists, which is completely not true, because feminism should be about women choosing what they do with their lives. So as they're not harming anyone else. And then on the other hand, you have, if you want to go back to work, you're abandoning your child, your your role as a woman is to look after your child. So yeah, women really can't win in this literally cannot win. I'm just looking for this quote, I had a guest last the last year or this year, I can't remember now. Charlotte Conde who's an an artist from the US, and she had a quote that I love, and I'm finding it because I've got to say it right? I can't, I can't not say it right, because it's awesome. Where is it? Hello, Charlotte, if you're listening, alright, here we go. This is it says, as mothers were asked to raise human beings and also contribute to society, as if those two things were different. It's exactly what's so well, what's because society somehow under capitalism has become the economic world. Yeah, it, it has become just that and not all these other aspects of society. Yeah, and, you know, sometimes the word care economy is used to talk about how this is that, you know, is also a sort of economy where we're producing but I think even we don't even need to use those terms. It's just the fact that nurturing one another is one of the main human acts in the way that we, you know, part of being human and living a good life. Not to mention that we, there's no way around it like either way. Either way, look after our children at home or other people look after children in a childcare center. It is still this care, right? Yeah. Yeah, people need that. So yeah, we is really the fact that they consider different things as a real problem. Hmm. And again, I think that's, yeah, this one off, like I sometimes bash men too much. But this whole it's not individual men. It's the snobbery. It's been going for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's not a new thing. But here's an interesting post. I can't remember who wrote it. Just last night, I was reading that. The whole idea of being a natural mother. Nurture is a concept that was created by men by the patriarchy. Exactly, I'm sure. Because that's yeah, I felt that when I was first giving my baby his very first bath, and did not know what to do. I thought, how, like, I remember saying to the nurse, I was verbally like, how do I push with the facewash? Like all these? You don't know, just your instincts. I'm like yeah, you got this tiny, tiny little, little alien looking thing. That's the funny thing. Yes. Somehow, when actually moms and dads Oh, parents, just learning the same as one another, you know, like, what? Yeah, when, when my daughter was born, my husband and I were both equally terrified of giving her a bath. Because you know this. So like, how do I hold them? What do I do? And it's like, yes, you're all learning together? Yeah. absolutely absurd. This idea. And you're right, it, of course, does come from patriarchy. Because there's this thing called Gender essentialism. I'm sure you kind of know the idea, or at least maybe not the term. So I was gonna say not probably not in those words, but I know, you would know it for sure. Yeah. So gender essentialism is basically just saying that certain qualities are inherently female, and certain qualities are inherently male. So the female ones would be nurturing, soft, emotional, kind of soft, and all these things and then the male ones would be hard reasoning. unemotional because of anger isn't an emotion in this context. And kind of separated from other people. And these ideas, yeah, are really fundamental to the way that we think about people of different genders and then yeah, becoming a mother. You're just so pushed into this. Because I guess in the workforce, you know, you can kind of there are a lot of still a lot of limits on women, but you can kind of go into a field that you're interested in that but with mothering, you're really, really pushed into that. I am a nurturer. I have to be a nurturer. And it's done. You know, like like with any things some people take more than that. And some people don't. And that's totally okay. And also, we're all learning mums and dads we all learn when none of us are just just born to be parents. Yeah, that's so true. And like, even with my two kids, like, I've adjusted the way I've parented them, because they're different people. So I'm learning as I go. Yeah, because not every child is the same everywhere, like every person is different. So it's an interesting concept, isn't it? I love all this creep. I love this stuff like this. Just why? Why do we think like this? When we started, get addicted to it, and sometimes people are, my friends are annoyed at me, because you know, you kind of have a normal conversation. You're like, Oh, I love that. Other things that you've sort of delved into, on your page? Obviously, politics, but diet culture? is a good one. Can you share some of your interesting thoughts about that about? Oh, yeah. And I noticed earlier, when you described yourself, you said, I've got a smaller body. Yeah, I live in a smaller body. Yeah, sorry, are you live in a smaller body? I'm not an expert on this whatsoever. The with this, just like, you know that I would never say that I am the person that everyone should be listening to about racism. I'm not the person that people should be fundamentally listening to about diet culture. But I do think that it's a really important thing to talk about. But look, it's women that are people that are living in larger bodies, that really the ones we should be listening to, because they're the ones that experience, the experience, prejudice, and fat shaming and all these things. So I'm trying, I'm really in the process of learning as well, I think. Because, you know, this idea that to be thin is good. And to be bigger is bad. This is something that's so deeply ingrained, you know, that like, somehow these are moral things. And also, somehow these are things that we can totally control. And, and if you're not, then you just need to try harder with them. So, yeah, so yeah, I like all of us, I grew up, just hearing from everyone around me, people are constantly criticizing themselves about their body, you know, and especially women, not only women, but especially women is such a collective thing we do you know. And then, of course, after you have a baby, it's the thing we do, and we just waste so much time focusing on our bodies, how much were the things we want to change and what we paid about our bodies and things like this. But the reason why I think it's important to talk about it as a diet culture, like as an ideology we have in societies because what we learn from fat people are people that are living in larger bodies. So I purposely use the word fat because, you know, when we grew up, we're taught you shouldn't use the word fat. It's like an insult to someone. And there are some activists like Aubrey Gooden who I don't know whether, you know, the podcast maintenance phase, it's one of my favorite podcasts. Yeah, yeah. You know, she, she kind of says this, this is a descriptive term. I believe that different people kind of have different ideas like about this. But what I've learned is that, yeah, it's just a descriptive term. And as well as that to say things like I'm living in a smaller body, I'm or someone who's living in a larger body with saying that this is just the body we live in. We're not. We kind of haven't chosen this. And we know, it's just based on genetics. It's based on, you know, our stress levels. It's based on what our social context is, you know, how much money we have the availability of food, how much time we have to prepare food or exercise, what sort of weather conditions, we have just so many things we cannot control, we fundamentally cannot control it. And so I think it's so important to talk about how there's so much prejudice against people who are not thin, just fundamentally and this is quite a new thing that is being talked about now. And there's so much pushback against it because we have so much obsession with thinness and, you know, the things that people talk about that they you know, the prejudice that they face, even just simple things like to get medical care you would know, from listening to maintenance phase, you know, the stuff that Aubrey Gordon talks about and how people you know, as kids, they will be put on diets. And everyone says that, well, that's okay. Because they just, you know, we just want them to be healthy. And the psychological effects of that are just terrible. So I think it's so important to talk about. So while Yeah, you know, while I, as a person, of course, have gone through a process of, you know, learning to have more neutrality toward my body, and things like this, and I am really trying to teach my kid to have a positive relationship with food. So for nothing, this is good food. This is bad food. Often Intuitive Eating is a term that's caught that's used around this. I think, really, though, the fundamental thing is that we need to think about these power structures and how fat people are just completely completely, you know, they really suffer from inequality in so many ways, because of this prejudice. And someone pointed out to me correctly that, you know, on social media on Instagram, so many people talking about intuitive eating and talking about diet culture, are people living in smaller bodies, and often white women, you know, so. So we, you know, I, we can only say so much about this, it's not really our authority, I think we need to really have a lot more diverse people talking about this, and, you know, to really listen to them. Yeah, I think that's really true. Similarly, with, like, we're talking about before about how I sort of speak to my children about things, we found weight, like I I'm a fat person, I'm not ashamed to say that because there it's like saying, I'm, I'm tall, and I'm fat. You know, they're descriptive. Exactly. This. Yeah, this is the thing. I think, also, it's like about everyone's own relationship with themselves, like, whatever, I guess whatever you choose to identify with. Yeah, is important. Yeah. But like, I explained to my kids that, you know, I showed my, my youngest son's never seen me, in a thin body, I was, I have a different time in my life. My weights fluctuated. But I showed him a picture the other day of when I was my lightest, and he couldn't believe it was me. And I said, I'm exactly the same person that I am, as I was, then like, I'm actually a happier and more settled person now. It doesn't change, like, you know, whether I'm good at something or bad at something, maybe, you know, Netflix is different. But you know, I'm still, but it's not like a moral a moral thing. It doesn't say that. Because, like, Okay, I live in a smaller body, but I'm not good, athletic, you know? And I'm not my diet isn't the best, you know, that's the other thing that like, no one ever is sort of looking at me eating pancakes or something and being like, oh, you know, gee, you should pick a healthier option or something. I mean, of course, like, maybe my grandma did, because, you know, like, that's that generation. And that was like, you know, just so ingrained for them that they're always kind of policing and worrying, maybe you will get bigger, maybe we'll you know, like as it but you know, no one, you know, for fat people that it's a public thing that can go in, you can go in public without being harassed in this way. And this constant microaggressions. And yeah, so I just don't think it makes sense. Because, yeah, people don't know what anyone's diet is. And also, it's irrelevant. totally irrelevant to other people what someone eats. I mean, I just think tying the moral thing as if it makes you a good or bad person is absolutely absurd. Like, how is it got to do with anyone else? Or whether you're a good person? Because like I said, it also depends on so many factors like, like, ultra if you're, you know, if you're tired parent, if you don't have much money, or so many things, and even if you even if you do have the ability to eat healthier and choose Not, not the word health isn't very good to eat more whole foods or something. If you don't, it's your own choice. You know, like, just like people choose to do different jobs, people choose to have leisure time doing different things. And it's funny, though, like, we talked before about this, neoliberalism is all about the self, but we're so obsessed with everybody else. It's like, yeah, there's you so big, like, has it always been? Yeah. People always. I think, I think it has, yeah, I don't like this something about, you know, like, I don't agree with the idea that, you know, society is worse than ever, in that sense. Because, you know, also even when we talk about neoliberalism, look, there were periods where we had greater social welfare and things like that, but fundamentally looking back In history, it was much worse, you know, because we were like, kings and staffs. We were there was just slaves and slave owners, you know. So that was funneling until there are still slaves in the world. You know, there are a lot. So, yeah, we have to put it in context like that. And when it comes to beat judging each other. Yeah, I think that now we just, it's more public because we have these avenues. But look, when we, I mean, I don't really know what happened before writing was a thing. But you know, you look at these old publications from few 100 years ago, newspapers, that it's all gossip there, it just does seem to be this human thing. to gossip about each other, and to compare and to judge. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, we, we kind of do do that. Yeah. And, but the difference is with this constant, it's more constant now. Because we just can't, I mean, think about the amount of different opinions and messages we're reading a day, or we're listening to a day, it's just so much. So I think that's why it can feel so overwhelming. Now, I'm gonna lead this into something that I talked to all my guests about, is this concept of, of guilt, or particularly mom guilt. Yeah. And the more that we talk about it, the more I believe that the whole culprit of it is this, what society expects us to be as mothers, so that we think we've got to do so we put these on ourselves, and when we don't meet them, then we feel bad about it. So it's an external construct. It's a thing that's coming at us. And I feel like, because of social media, it's just heightened the whole thing, because we can see so much more, you know, before we heard that, such and such down the road was doing such and we go, oh, shouldn't do that. Blah, blah, blah. There's she might not have known that. But now, it's, you know, people can tell each other what they think of them all the time. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You're right. It's, it's just constant. And also, it's, it's really difficult, because I think as well, we seek out connection on social media. And I think, and I think that, you know, for isolated mothers, we do kind of want to see others that are in the position like us that are also mothers at home with their kids, especially when they're little you know, when you're on maternity leave, or when you're in that really difficult phase, then you really want to think like, and you and like you said before, you're thinking what is my life, all I'm doing is Baby Alive. So on the way Yeah, and that is kind of maybe part of the reason why we do also we're so vulnerable. And then, and then we look to these images of other people and social media. And I think that there is just there are parts that are really positive, and I kind of try and stay stick to them. There are parts that are really saying that, you know, we just need to be good enough parents, and you know, we're all doing our best. And then there are parts that you know, they'll have this really nicely curated feed where it just shows them doing this lovely activity with the kids and they're all wearing matching outfits, their hair is washed, and they're like, there's no mess. There's no crumbs on the ground. There's no like, and you know that it's not real. It's not real. It's not real. But on the other hand, like when you're in this vulnerable mental position, you kind of can think how can how can I live that way? And how come I don't? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like, for me personally, I don't know. I think in those early days of being a mom, like in the newborn phase, I never I never thought that you know that that was real. I never thought I want it to be like that. But at the same time I I definitely did. And I still do experience mom guilt just thinking because we have these were socially conditioned, like you said, to have certain ideas about what a mom should do. We have. I think that this is ideal of a mother that it's not even it's not a person. It's like this thought, you know, that we all have in our cultural thinking. And we compare everything according to that. And it's this idea that's been perpetuated by patriarchy so not by men, but by this idea that women are a certain way and that women are meant to do this. And women play a big part in perpetuating it as well. You know, women also perpetuate patriarchy we all we all do. But because this is they are ingrained thinking. And yeah, so I, I would think, you know, I think I would compare a bit more with like other mothers I saw around, you know, like, why does she look so well dressed and I'm wearing trackies and haven't washed my hair and have stressed pimples or whatever, you know, like, or why do I feel? Yeah, or I don't know, when my daughter started becoming an older baby. You know, my daughter is on super energetic side is she's amazing. She, I mean, she's just full of life and ready to go all the time. And it's completely amazing. Like, people always comment on it, but it's tiring. Yeah. Like, I mean, even. And so once she started, I don't know, I was so obsessed in love with her and still am. But as a baby, I sort of said to my husband, like, do you think? What would you think if I took longer maternity leave? So I am in a really lucky position that we've sort of could choose how long I would stay home with it. I don't get paid for any of that. And we're not like, in a insanely good financial position. Like we sort of said, Then during this time, we won't save. But of course, having said that, compared to most women in the world, that's a hugely privileged position. Like for me, for us to even say that. So yeah, and he was like, Yeah, of course. But you can, however long you want, you know, maybe till two or whatever. And then she got close to one. And I was like, starting to think, Oh, my God, I cannot handle these days of constant energy, like, because it would just be like, if we were at home, she'd be running around, and she would be kind of annoyed. And it makes sense, because she's, like, pent up, she needs to get this energy out. There's not enough to do in it. We live in an apartment. That's not enough. You know, in Australia, houses are super common. And a lot of the world people live in apartments, and it's fine. But um, yeah, and we would, I would take it apart twice a day, and it wasn't enough. And I felt really guilty because I was, like, I love my daughter. I should be loving this, when actually it doesn't make sense. But just because I love her doesn't mean I need to love every second of it. Yeah, yeah, we ended up sending out a daycare. And we're all she asked if she is thriving, you know, I, and I'm a much better parent for that. Sometimes I do still feel guilty. You know, my husband has to remind me. And it's interesting that he reminds me, he's, he's a very good feminist. You know, he, he understands why he wouldn't say that, because I think he always he doesn't like to say, you know, like, as a man, he doesn't want to say that. But I think he is aware of all these things and sort of tries to think critically about it. But anyway, he says to me why you feel guilty? You know, she loves it. She wants to be there. But then I don't know just decide. I guess it is just this cultural ideas of like, oh, but she should be with me, even though it doesn't make sense. If she was like, the other day she was home sick with me. And we're both are not in. Too much. You know, she wants to be there playing with other friends and doing the million activities they do at daycare. Yeah, I can't provide her with like, 10 activities a day. Yeah. Yeah, look, what you're saying is so, so true, and so relatable. It's that notion that, like you said, we love our children, but we don't have to love every second of this mothering roles that were you know, an expectation. We love every moment. We don't love every moment of anything, but yet, but then he was coming back. We're hauled over the coals if we say, if we publicly you know, say, Oh, gee, this was really hard today. Well, you want to become a parent. Yeah. Many people whinge about their job. Like they love their job. But jeez, I had a hard day. Oh, well, you shouldn't winter is reserved for us. Of a year, this is our natural role. That's what we're supposed to be doing it. Yeah, it's absolutely ridiculous. And I think that, yeah, like, like, we really need this outlet to just say this is hard, sometimes just like everything, and also fundamentally that, like, society doesn't really support mothers. And so because we don't have that village, because we don't have the it makes it that much harder. That's for sure. I don't know how many of us do it, to be honest, when you think about everything we've got going against us. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I don't know. I feel like I'm, you know, in such a privileged position, and I'm really tired all the time. And like, you know, people do that so much harder, you know, and I had to know, it's, I'm just in awe, really, but they shouldn't have to, they shouldn't have to, you know, yeah, that's so true. It's frustrating, isn't it? Now I want to ask you, there's a great reel that you made a few weeks ago. It's great. I'm really that bad. This is a big thing for me, because I actually want to, I want to talk about this again, because this is like this obsession, absolute obsession with AD generation. I feel like all parents at the moment, and yeah, look, if you look at it, if you look at it in a historical context, like I say, I'll just kind of repeat what I said in the real because I mean, it's true that every generation has this crisis about some new technology that's going to destroy young people in the time of the ancient Greek philosophers like Plato, so this is like, about 2000 years ago, they thought that writing was going to destroy everyone, because the oral tradition was how we, how they communicated. And you know, through memorizing, that was a huge thing. Because of course, if you didn't memorize, then how were you going to ever remember anything? And how would ideas ever be passed on so that I will now we write it down, now the kids aren't going to remember anything, how, you know, this is going to be a catastrophe. And then, of course, then the printing press, we have books proliferated, that was a crisis. And then of course, the ones we know, which are like, radio, radio was a disaster. Now, of course, it's funny, because people think the radio is like a good alternative to screen time. Not watching. People just gonna be listening all the time. And then they're sitting there listening, and they're not moving around. And then TV, of course, which still goes on, and then the internet, you know, so I just think that yes, there are these recommendations that we have. But when we obsess over them, we're just really not thinking in context. Because we're, we're not thinking about the fact that, like, the alternative, we think that the alternative to screentime is like this, this 100% quality time with a parent or with some other caregiver, where they're just flourishing, and they're, you know, they're just absolutely taking everything in and learning. And, you know, for like, in the past, the alternative was probably working for a lot of children in the world. Now. The alternative is working, bored, either working in paid labor or working at home helping with the helping maintain the home. Or if it's not that, you know, it won't necessarily be this quality one on one time, all the time. And even if we talk about, even if we don't talk about that, we just talked about our own context. Then it, I just don't think it's the worst thing in the whole world. They don't. Kids don't need 100% quality time, all the time. It's impossible. And you're also going to have parents who are kind of regulated and feeling okay, and, and I really think it's part of this mom guilt, it feeds into this mom guilt thing again, because realistically, how are you going to cook dinner? With, you know, a few kids around you, especially if they're young? Or how are you gonna, you know, get all chores done? Or how are you audits? Maybe you just need to relax. It doesn't even need me that, you know, maybe you just need a minute. Yeah. You know, without them doing this. And I think that often the people that do do no screen time ever, at least the ones that I've heard are in a really privileged position, you know. And so then for people who have juggling so many things just feel so bad that their kids watching TV. I just think it just, I don't know, it's just guilt for nothing. And also, I just think that when we look back historically, like, maybe we won't be like, Oh, my God, look, they were staring at screens all the time. Maybe because that's just part of our world. Yeah, like springs are part of our world. Yeah. And the truth is, I think if you don't give your child a little bit of access to that technology, they're gonna get left behind at school. That's the other thing. Yeah. Because Because actually, they need to learn these skills. And that's kind of the approach we're taking that we're going to try and as soon as we can I don't know what age they started at, like four or five or I haven't looked into it yet, but it tries to do like kids coding for. Yeah, yeah. because, I mean, that's kind of gonna be really important. And yeah, that's the future. That's the world now, and I don't know anything about coding. And so I'm kind of like, in the dark already, you know. And so I just don't think that, yeah, that track, we're trying to protect our kids from things. I think rather, we just need to think how we can nurture them to safely and, and in a nice way, use those things. This is a really long bow to draw. But it's like, in the times when you'd say to teenagers don't have sex, it's like, well, they're gonna have sex, so teach them how to use a condom. Right? So Right, exactly, you just say just don't use it. And then they're gonna go on the internet themselves. Or watch shows? Well, anyway, they watch shows on the internet, go on social media, whatever themselves, and they're gonna have no understanding if you don't teach them, like how to tell if something is factually based How to tell if something is safe, you know, or something that is comfortable for them, you know? Or how to ask you if it's something uncomfortable on the internet happens to them to tell you and yeah, exactly like this creepy purple, they're selling to me or something. Instead, they'll just hide it. And then they're getting more on. Yeah, yeah. So I'd say waiting until they're teenagers to talk about their safety on the internet, and to let them have access. I think it doesn't make sense. That's not to say that I'm gonna let my kid sit there and do anything on the internet. Yeah, of course not. But but you got to, you've got to give them I think, begin was small levels of freedom and make it bigger and bigger in ways that they can cope with. Yeah, and it's no different to like, if you sent your kid out a little, a little toddler out into a big kid's playground, or, you know, just gonna go get run over and go sit and drink your coffee and not watch you know, it's, it's a part of life and trying to do it in a safe way. So your child's protected and, and if that's important, that communication to like, to bid for them to come to you and say, Hey, this happened, what do I do? Or how do I navigate this? Or, you know, it's so important that they keep talking to you? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you, of course, would have so much more experience with this. For me, this is all theoretical, and just thinking about it. Because I know it's so hard for parents to work, navigate this whole online thing. But like you said, we just got to, we got to acknowledge this is the world this is the world they live in. They don't, you know, they don't remember a world before the internet. You know, we, you and I remember when it shows our age, but we remember, you know, I had the time before the internet. And so I really think of it as something that happened. They don't think like that. They're just like, yeah, that's the world like when I my toddler she has she's on a tablet. And I don't think that it's some huge disaster that she knows how to, like change the video or something. You know, she can press it as like, yeah, like, because that's just like she's learning all these other skills in the world. Yeah, just letting her do that. Yeah, of course. It's so much easier for her. Yeah. And yeah, it's a story I often reflect on my seven year old we were talking once about how we used to have our phones on the wall so you remember to pick up the phone it only went a certain distance like the cord was stuck to the curly cord Yeah, and he said how did you play your games while it was stuck on the wall? I'm like what? Because had it because he's imagining I've got my phone stuck on the game's amazing I love it. It's not normal world that didn't have this stuff in it and it got it blows my mind like how different because especially because we live in a time when technology progressed so rapidly and now it's kind of seems like it's a little bit plateauing again, like we haven't you know they're trying to do like VR and things like that now but but you know, within the last kind of 20 years it's just been massive with the smartphones and with how fast the internet is and things like this. But yeah, it's so funny. This is really good channel on YouTube, which is something like teenagers try out old technology or something. Yeah, yeah, I know what you're a funny how like they're trying to use a video player and they're trying to work out like how you would put it in. And the funniest thing is when you know that cord comes out, you know the tape or whatever. The real inside it comes out and every one of our generation discuss art because then you have to fix it with a pen. I love that. There's a post it's like what's the relationship and they show? Only certain faithful over certain days you'll know what you find mental part of our life and now like, yeah, they just have no idea what it is. And yeah, it's okay to because, you know, things change and we don't need to, like be romantic about it, but I think you know, because but yeah, it is funny. It is quite incredible, but I think that they're gonna be, you know, do amazing things with this technology is such capability. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And again, I think if your kids not aware of it or understands or knows what even what it is like that is the future they will they will get left behind that's not present. It's literally sorry. Yes, it is. It's the present. It's happening right now. And if you can't engage in that way, you are just not going to be involved in the conversation, which is Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Bla bla what what platforms are you on? I know you're on Instagram. Are you on? Yeah. Yes, I'm on Instagram. I've just started a YouTube as well, because I wanted to do longer videos. Because obviously, all of these concepts. I think it's really fun. And I really like it that I can communicate things to people in a really short way on Instagram, but I'm, yeah, I'm on YouTube. So I'm, I'm, yeah, so you can find me there. And I'm on Twitter as well, if you use Twitter, and I'm just, I'm just developing my website, I hope that it will be out soon. And my kind of hope with this whole project is and this is why I started this whole thing is I wanted to move toward or incorporate doing courses for parents and really for people in general, but focusing on parents like feminism for parents and different critical thinking for parents things like that, and provide different resources. So yeah, I'm really working a lot on that at the moment. Yeah, excellent. I love that. I'll put all the links in the shownotes for people if they want to find you. I've just found that I mean, I'm still learning. I'm still learning. It's good fun. My. Yeah, it's good, fun. Look, thank you so much for sharing your ideas with the world and for communicating in a very non condescending manner. It's really lovely. Honestly, I think if there's one thing like, we're all learning, and I just, I don't know, we're all learning and yeah, and the more we can all talk about things, the better, I think but it's been so nice. Thank you so much. Yeah, no, no worries at all. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for mums of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Jo Maloney Australian singer, songwriter and musician S3 Ep94 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My final guest for Season 3 is Jo Maloney, a singer, songwriter and musician from Melbourne Victoria, and a mum of 3 boys. As a child she saw any raised platform as a stage, and would love belting out a song or two for anyone who was around. On seeing Olivia Newton John in the movie Xanadu, it was the moment Jo knew she wanted to be a singer. Jo has enjoyed an extensive voice career that started when she competed in local talent quests from the age of 10 singing country music and anything on a backing track that she could get her teenage hands on before moving to Sydney. After 9 years of gigging the pub and corporate scene she relocated to London where eventually she found work in a number of cover bands on a full time basis. This also took her in the direction of band management for a number of years. It wasn’t until she moved to Melbourne in 2012 after 10 years in London with 3 kids in tow, that motherhood really took over and became all consuming. It was when she turned 40 that she decided that she wanted to try her luck at writing her own music. It’s only been in the last 4 years-just before Cover and now that her 3 children are older, that she really has decided to become accountable to herself and her dreams and put in 100% effort. Under the guise of Dragnfly Industri, her music weaves together creativity, thoughtful lyricism and eclectic pop- infused instrumentals, Jo released her debut single Ghost last year, it reflected Jo's life of once believing that dreams are risky and unattainable and only for the lucky few, to realising that they can come true. The track gained attention from industry and a core fanbase alike, winning the Real Songwriters of Melbourne Community Award, as well as earning a Top 5 spot in RSOM’s song of the year. 2023 will see Jo continue to embrace her development, set to release a self-produced debut EP in late 2023 as well as a slew of new singles. Jo exudes the philosophy that it's never too late to explore your passions, find your legacy and live your purpose every day. Jo - Instagram / Music Podcast - instagram / website Jo's music used with permission. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. It is such a pleasure to have you here from wherever you're listening all around the world. My guest this week is Joe Maloney. Joe is a singer, songwriter and musician from Melbourne, Victoria in Australia, and she's a mom of three boys. As a child, Joe saw any race platform as an opportunity to perform. It was his stage, and she would love belting out a song or two for anyone who was around. On seeing Olivia Newton John in the movie Xanadu. Joe knew it was the moment that she wanted to be a singer. Joe has enjoyed an extensive vocal career that started when she competed in local talent quests from the age of 10 singing country music and anything on a backing track that she could get her teenage hands on before moving to Sydney. After nine years successfully gigging the pub and corporate scene in a covers band, she relocated to London, where she eventually found work in a number of cover bands on a full time basis. This also took her in the direction of band management for a number of years. It wasn't until Joe moved to Melbourne in 2012, after 10 years in London, with three kids in tow, that motherhood really took over and became all consuming. It was when she turned 40 That she decided that she wanted to try a look at writing her own music after being inspired as a 14 year old. By a 16 year old Debbie Gibson song lost in your eyes. It's only been in the last four years just before COVID And now that her three children are older, that she really has decided to become accountable to herself and her dreams and put in 100% effort under the guise of dragonfly industry. Her music weaves together creativity, thoughtful lyricism and eclectic pop infused instrumentals, Joe released her debut single ghost last year. It reflected Joe's life of once believing that dreams are risky, and unattainable, and only for the lucky few to realizing that they can come true. The track gained attention from industry and core fanbase alike, winning the real songwriters of Melbourne community Award, as well as earning a top five spot in the real songwriters of Melbourne Song of the Year. 2023 We'll see Joe continue to embrace her development. She's set to release a self produced debut EP in late 2023, as well as a slew of new singles. Joe exudes the philosophy that it's never too late to explore your passions. Find your legacy, and live your purpose every day. Throughout this episode, you'll hear Joe's music. I hope you enjoy today's episode. It's the final episode in Season Three of the podcast I know you walking through wilderness feeling lost on the ground, darkened scaly is a fever in chest cause you always thank you so much for coming on. Joe. It's such a pleasure to meet you and put a face to the to the voice. Thanks for having me. It's wonderful to be here Allison. Yeah, it's lovely. And your whereabouts are you in Australia? So I'm based in Melbourne? Yep. I just outside of Melbourne. Yeah, in Larabee. So I guess it's western suburbs. So yeah. My nana used to live in hoppers crossing. Okay. Yeah, there we go. How long have you been in? Where before? I only eight years. I'm not originally from Melbourne. I'm actually, I've kind of been all over really. But I guess I spent most of my childhood up in New South Wales, just south of Port Macquarie. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, really, really lovely spot. My mum and dad is still up there. And it's yeah, it's it's beautiful to go home. I wouldn't say to home, I've lived there for a long time. But it's beautiful to go and see them and have a holiday as well, because it's right by the beach. And so I've only been I've been in Melbourne for 10 years, but I've been in wherever for eight. Yeah, yeah. But isn't Port Macquarie, like the place in Australia that has the most number of like really good weather days or something? Is that salutely No idea. Someone told me that once because we're I mean, Matt Gambia and the weather is just fair. I mean, you'd be familiar with that being in Melbourne. It's pretty Yeah. Yeah. And I remember watching one day about the weather. And they said, I'm sure they said Portland quarry had like, because I said, I just want it to be like 25 degrees with sunshine. Like, is that too much to ask? And they're like, Yeah, I know. I don't think it's quite like that up there. Certainly not. Now. I think they get very, very hot and humid up there. Now. I think it's definitely a lot more humid than what it used to be when I was living there. So it might it may have been like that once upon a time. Tell me about your music. You are a musician, a singer songwriter? How did you first get into music? When do you have this moment of like recalling when you sort of first discovered music? Ah, I remember always being a show off. Right from sort of being kind of like three, four years old. I loved being the center of attention. And I think a lot to do with the fact that not only was I the oldest child, but I was the oldest grandchild on both sides of the family. Yeah. The distinct memory I really have is, every time I saw like a raised platform, I was singing, whether it be my grandparents balcony, or the front veranda of their house. So I can remember being in a shopping center and like seeing sticks somewhere. And I'd be on the steps thinking my little heart out because it felt like a page. And I don't think it was like, watch me, this is what I can do. It was just something that I gravitated towards. When I saw the movie Xanadu. That was the moment that it it clicked for me that I thought, ah, that's what I want to do. I want to sing I want to I want to just be this person that just sings and is beautiful and and I was obsessed with that movie for such a long time growing Yeah, absolutely obsessed. My, my whole family would still tell me to this day, how long I would spend swinging on a swing, singing Xanadu hours. The first time I think I felt like I really wanted to be a songwriter was when I was about 14 I think back in the late 80s. And there was a 14 year old singer songwriter named no she was 16 Sorry, Debbie Gibson. Oh yeah. And I fell in love with her song lost in your eyes. And I thought, Ah, I would love to play the piano and sing like that. And so I tried to emulate that for a few few years. And then I think I just got too nervous with writing and just fear of judgment. And so I just decided I was just going to be a singer. And I actually put away the songwriting for a really really long time and only identified as a vocalist. So it's only really been actually in the last three or four years that I've started who want more and think actually, I think there's more in me than just being a singer. And that was when I actually started to really take some writing seriously? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can totally relate to what you're saying, like completely. You it's like, I don't know, like, it's almost like life's happening around you, like you have your kids and you're growing up, and there's all this other stuff happening. And it's like, you sort of have forget that you have these skills almost, excuse me, that you actually used to write when you're a kid, and then all of a sudden go, why am I doing that anymore? You know? Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, because it comes writing comes from somewhere else. And singing and performing is such an outer thing. It's what's on the outside writing is what is on the inside. And it's learning. For me, it was learning to tap into that, because I had spent such a long time living outside of myself. And so that's been a whole new experience for me, which has been really, really exciting just to find my dip. With it all. And I still don't feel like I've quite gotten there yet. I think. I mean, no one really ever gets to that destination, do they? Where they're like, right? Yes. I've got it all figured out. Yeah. But that in itself is pretty exciting, isn't it that you've, you're on this journey. And I'll make for one of the better word. If one uses that with you. And you're like, you're learning these things about yourself. And you're discovering more and more and you know, like, from what you're just saying there, you know, there's more there. And that's pretty exciting. Isn't that? Absolutely. Yeah, it is it is. It's like going on an adventure. Yeah. And I try and use the word Safari because it can get pretty wild in there. That's a cool analogy. Dude. Cuz, yeah, stop, stop, stop. Stop, stop. Stop with the music that you're writing. Now, what's your sort of, I guess your inspiration coming from? Um, I think a lot of it is. From music theater, I've realized. I listen to a lot of music theater and a lot of power vocalists as a teenager as well. And I think I, at this point in time in my life, I think I try and write like that. Even though I don't feel like I have that kind of voice. It's just I suppose it makes it easy for me to concoct a story in my head and visualize what I'm trying to write about. So, yeah, I like to sort of think of it now as being a bit more music theory or music theater oriented. Yeah, quite dramatic. I think I have a bit of a dramatic voice very dynamic. So I tend to like to have lots of dynamics in my songs with lots of little quiet bits, and then really sort of loud. Yes. And, yes, so at this point in time, that's, that's the influence for me. And it took a little while for me to realize that because I was just writing, I was just writing what I was hearing in my head and not really attaching any label to what or any genre. And now the more I think about it, that's where it comes from, I think, yeah, cool. So I think that's the awesome thing about writing your own songs, you can pick where you want the key to B, you can pick the range, and like you said, you can really like accentuate those like really exciting parts of your voice like using the dynamics that's something I've think's really cool even though it I think, clicked into right most of my songs in the same key are so many people do and I I sometimes do as well. I think it just kind of puts because as being vocalist, you know where your voice naturally said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is it's a lot. It's really easy to fall into that trap of oh, just writing in D major. I know it sounds good. Yeah, that's pretty. Good sled down with a young Do you have a day job or is music, everything that you do in your life? Music, I'm very, I'm very, very fortunate that aside from mothering music is the other thing in my life, my husband, and has been insanely supportive of me focusing on music. Because he knows that's what makes me happy. And I, he, he actually wouldn't want me to, to go and do another job. Because every time I come to him and say, Hey, I've been offered this and I and he'll be just like, is that really it? Are you gonna have time? Like volunteering for my kids basketball, like to be the manager of my kids basketball team. And, like, seriously, it's not going to take that long and not take that much time out of my week. So he does get very quite protective of my music. Fear, I suppose you could say so yeah, I'm really, really fortunate that music is is the be all and end all for me, which is great. No hobby at this point in time. But I have I have done some gigs and earn a little bit of money from it, which has been nice. So it's just building on that. Yeah, absolutely. That's the thing, isn't it? It's a it is a constant. Like you said, it's a safari, it's like it's an adventure. So tell me about your kids. How many kids have you got? I've got three boys. One wants to remain nameless. So I have Max who just turned 13. Last week this week. And I've got twin boys. So Zach, and twin one. And they are 11. So three boys. Yeah. And a set of twins in there. Like that's pretty cool. in there as well. Yeah. So for a little while. I had three and a two for about six weeks. Straight. Oh, man. Yeah. Thankfully, for that whole time. We were over in London at the moment that at that point in time, the kids were all born over there. Were in hospital for three weeks, my husband had the luxury of working for himself and was able to take time off to be with Max while I had to go into the hospital every day. And then my parents actually flew over for six weeks as well. So I think really for the and then my husband was able to take some more time off work. So for the first three months of the life, I had help around me, which was amazing. And then everyone's life just kind of went back on track. And I was at home with three little ones. I can ask a question. So you had you had the twins, after you already had one child? Is it better or worse? Because some people have said this. It's better like their grandpa had twins first because I didn't know what they're in for. Is it better or not worse? Because you know what I mean? But what was the perspective? Yeah. For me, obviously, I can only go by my experience. For me. I am glad that I had the twin second. Because I felt like Max was a really tricky baby. I felt like he never really settled properly for the first six months anyway. And you know what it's like when you're a first time mom, and the moment they're crying, you're thinking, what's wrong? What what do I need to do? Yeah, when I had the twins, I had no choice sometimes, but to leave one of them to cry. I be kinda you know what, you're fine. I'm sort of elbow deep in your brother's nappy at the moment. And I felt it was more about micromanaging the three of them. Yeah, right. More than anything else, but in terms of them as babies and me as a mother and then being second. I feel very fortunate that they were actually second because I felt a lot calmer and a lot more confident as a mum. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I yeah, I don't I honestly having I do remember one night and I tell this this story a lot to people where I think one of the twins had been crying maybe for two hours, they just wouldn't settle. And just as he settled, his brother decided to kick off. And so when you think oh, great, awesome, you're about to go to sleep. That's great. It's midnight. Okay. Yeah, I can go to bed and the other one kicks off and, and I remember being upstairs and, and they were still in like my baskets. Picking up the basket, trudging downstairs to my husband, who was feeding the other twin who'd settled and just been saying to him, I am so sick and tired of crying babies. I'm just sick of it. And there were definitely moments like that where I just thought it's just too much the feeding I at night time. I remember not doing as the books telling you to do where if you feed one child, one twin wake the other one up to feed. I remember just thinking, oh my god, I'm so tired. The moment you fall asleep, I'm gonna go back to bed but which was so stupid, because half an hour later, the other ones woken up anyways. So I've never ever noticed sleep deprivation like that i So even as unsettled as Max was as a baby. I certainly didn't have the sleep deprivation with him like I did with Zach. I couldn't talk. I couldn't. I couldn't string a sentence together. I was just that tired. And that was yeah, that was pretty tough. Even with help for the first few months. Yeah, gosh, it's full on. Yeah, yeah. That's it. And also managing, as I said, managing the three of them. I did a lot of reading about that. Before that came along. And you have absolutely no control on managing your children. When you're out and about we look like an absolute circus. Walking around. It was just me and this wall of children I had, I'd usually have Max and Zach in the stroller. And I'd had because he was really tiny when he was born I'd had strapped to me. So it'd be like baby on my chest. Two little ones in front of me and just walking. And it wasn't a like a front and back pram. It was a side by side. Yeah. Yeah, I was literally a circus everywhere I went. And so people would often stop me obviously, as they do they see twins, or I'd have both twins in the stroller and Max, I'd be holding my hand, people would gravitate to the twins. And it's initially and oh twins and Lincoln, Irene, which is fine. But inevitably they score. How old are they and books but always say that this is going to happen. And to always include your oldest child first in the conversation and say, Well, I have max here. He's too Zakka. Whoever meant sold, they were but again, people would then say to max, oh, you're a fake brother, Aren't you lucky, you've got twin brothers. And he's not stupid. He wasn't stupid back then. And he knew immediately that this conversation is still about them. And it's about me. So for that first kind of 12 to 18 months for Max was very difficult as well, because he just hated being stopped. He got to a point where I'd pick him up and he'd be grabbing my face. And he'd be saying, Go, go, go, go now go because he just hated it. Yeah, totally understandable, because I left out and what what can you do as a mother in that situation when other people's actions are beyond you? And that's it. You're trying your best, you know, you're saying, you know, you're including him, but people are just still when, you know, twin land and all lost in our heads. And yeah, that's one isn't it for a little filler like that? Yeah, yes. He has he recovered from that, or does he still feel? Yeah, right. Now, yeah, he not that he would understand just yet but I think there is a lot of trauma in him. He doesn't he he, he really sometimes is quite venomous to to one of the twins in particular. And he, I mean, look, he's a teenager now and he's going through teenage angsty sort of stuff. Very like me. I'm in terms of trying to be the black sheep of the family, which he is. And that's fine. But I do sense that a lot of his actions and a lot of what he says is some very deep trauma that, like I said, he doesn't even know exists yet. And also to, I think, I obviously was doing my very best to cope. But I was tired, I was tired. And so when I had Max in bed and wanting me to stay in cuddle him, all I could think of was, I need some time out. I, you're in bed now. And I need to walk away and just be me for a couple of hours before I go to bed. And I look back on that now and I feel terrible. But but the thing you got to look after yourself, don't you? Well, you can't look after anybody say absolutely, absolutely. My husband, very early on after having Max. Five weeks into it, I was sort of wasn't really sort of singing at the time, but I was actually managing the band that I was singing in and, and I remember being a band of I was the only female and it was blokes. And obviously, they're not really understanding what it is to be a new mum. And trying to juggle that and trying to juggle having my first child and I just remember just falling in a heat one afternoon and my husband actually saying to me, remember when you're in a plane and you have a child and those oxygen masks come down, you have to put that oxygen mask on yourself before you put it on your child. Otherwise, you're useless. It's like it's an oxygen mask. And even now, he'll still say to me, you have to put your mask on first. And it makes my day just to know the aura around and it makes my day just to see your face, then a bullet in my body ricochets and it makes my day just to see you. And it makes my day just to know that you're around and it makes my day in those those early days when you're in the thick of it. Was there any music was there an outlet for you. Um, I was very lucky in those early years when I was in London. Even though I had no family around, I had an amazing support base with other mothers that I had met at a at an antenatal class. And they they were like family, I had a couple of other friends as well who lived a bit further away. But all I needed to do was just call them day and night if I needed to. And they they would do whatever they could to get to me. So I felt incredibly supported in that way. And because I had a really lovely network of other bands that I was working for as well, I was able to I was really lucky, I was able to actually pick and choose the gigs that I wanted to do so I was wasn't doing music on a full time basis like I had been. But yeah, I was in a really really fortunate position of still gigging when I wanted to gig. And I didn't have to travel very far if I didn't want to. So it was amazing. It was when I came back to Australia was when things got tough, and I did nothing. I didn't know anyone down here the two friends that I had, he lived right over the other side. So it wasn't like I was seeing them all the time. And it was me and four walls and three little babies. And my husband was working in town so he and he was doing long hours and they jet sack took a little bit of time to walk so they weren't really essentially very mobile when it came to getting out and about. I was going to a playgroup, but the playgroup the mothers, there really weren't the people, they weren't my people. And it was just something to do. And I set up a studio in the spare room, but I didn't really do anything with it at all hardly. And I think, because I didn't have the tools to write I knew that that's kind of where I wanted to head but I still had such incredible creatives create writer's block. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so I didn't know how to access that either. So not only was I not really accessing it, physically, I didn't know how to access it mentally either. So it was really tricky and it wasn't really until I turned 40 And Max It started school. And I wasn't doing any singing at all. I wasn't gigging. And I thought, right. What do I want to do? What? It's come to a turning point for me now? What do I want to do? Do I want to just keep singing covers in cover bands? Or do I want to explore something a little bit further? And that was when I decided that I wanted to start exploring, creating for myself because I hadn't done it for such a long time that I wanted. Yeah. It felt scary. And as I said, it felt wild. But I it was just kind of this internal pool for me, I think, yeah, to do it. But again, I didn't know where to start. And I actually started, I found I realized I wanted to sing in a choir for the walk. harmonies, and I thought, ah, actually, singing in a choir may write a bit right about now would be incredible. And I think it was back in 2016, the stars aligned and I found on the ABC News website, this new choir that had started up called Melbourne indie voices. Oh, yeah. And yes, yeah. And they've only just started, I think they'd started the week before. And yeah. had was with being interviewed. And I thought, ah, that's what I want to do. I don't want to sing anything like that. I didn't want to go there. The whole idea of singing arrangements of songs by independent artists, I just thought, ah, that's it. That's what I want to do. Yeah. And, ah, it was so much fun. And I met some incredible people. And Sofia and Joshua partner were just so insanely or are so insanely talented. And it was just lovely to sing, again, sing with people. And so I did that for a few years. And that also did start to encourage me to start writing as well. And I was getting lots of inspiration just from seeing what fear had created with her arrangements for songs and, and yeah, that's it, that was a real inspiration to get moving with it and start just looking at how I can start, what are the tools that I can find to get me moving with it? And yeah, and then eventually, I thought, I don't, I moved on from singing in the choir, I thought I just want to invest in myself now. And COVID hips, and it was for me, it was probably the best thing ever creatively. I was able to actually, the boys were great with remote learning. And we had some hiccups with with Max the eldest for a while, but that just yeah, that just really gave me a chance to start really exploring and just through the power of social media, meeting people and yeah, so that's been that's been it really? Isn't it funny how things come to you at the right time? Like when you need stuff, and things just appear? I just love that. That's an awesome, yeah. Oh, it's something that I think I've I've really become really interested. I mean, I've been interested in it for a really, really long time. But now I'm really delving diving really deep into it is like manifestation and spirituality and meditation. And I find that I have a really, really amazing routine now of meditating in the morning and journaling and object writing and really learning about and harnessing the sun. I'm looking for just harnessing the energy to create and to open up that channel and be the antenna and take all conscious thought out of out of it all and just allow something else to take over. So yeah, so I really have this huge belief now that and as you you've probably read and adapted yourself where yeah, when you when you speak something out loud. And you have a feeling connected to that. That sentence or that voice. It does. It's an antenna. It comes to you. Yeah, it makes it real. Now Yeah, absolutely. I've had too many things in my life occur that I have wanted to happen for me to think this is not coincidence. Yeah, at all. I've called this into existence. Yeah. It's pretty powerful, isn't it? Like, I remember once I remember who it was, someone told me, because at this point, I was just doing gigs. I wasn't writing, but I was just doing gigs and doing whatever just sort of floating through not really, with any sort of purpose or whatever. And someone said to me, but what, like, what do you really want to do? What do you what do you what is your focus? And I sort of had to stop and think about it? Because actually didn't know. And I thought, well, actually, I'd really like to get back into my writing. And they said, Well, what do you want to sort of achieve with your writing? And I? And I said, Well, you know, I'd like to write a couple of songs, whatever. And they said, no, no, no. Think about what you want to happen. What do you want? Like, it was, it was almost like, visualize, see yourself, in this point, doing whatever. And I said, I'd really like to write some really good songs, and have someone that's going to produce them really well. So they sound really good. And it was just like, I don't know, I just something completely shifted in me. Yeah. And it's like, now I'm just about finished this album. And I'm so happy with it. Because it's just, I don't know, it just you Right? Like when you when you put it out there and you actually allow yourself to be open. And yeah, like taking away how it's going to happen. You know, necessarily planning things down to the nth degree, whatever, you just get clear with what you want. It's amazing. Like it is amazing. Yeah, blows my mind. It does. And this is something that I'm trying to teach my children as well. So the twins responding really well to it. Yeah, Max, not so much. Yeah. That teenage isn't? Yeah. And I think also, too, it is, as I said to you before, I think it is a little bit of that trauma that's in him because he at this point, and he was always a happy child, I look at photos and he had, he was always smiling and loving life. But I, he at the moment has sort of is walking in the dark path in terms of the world is a horrible place. And there's nothing good about it. And human beings are awful to each other. And what's the point and, and so he's not wanting. And it's just the stubbornness in him as well as he's not wanting to respond or taking anything that I say about, well, whatever you look for, it's what you're going to find if you're going to look for the bad stuff. That's what that's what's going to present to you if you if you look for the good, it works for the good stuff, too. But at the moment, he's he that's not the track that he wants. And I'm not worried at this point in time. Yeah, yeah, that's part of his outlier kind of persona that he likes to revel in. And he's always liked to be that type of person who wants to walk to the beat of his own drum, which is amazing. Like, it's something that I want him to continue on. And it's, I guess, I was like, That is a child to, like, you can't tell me what I need to learn and think and do and you've just got to make the mistakes yourself. And eventually, something will click and I know that will happen with him too. And it's just him knowing that they're here to be the place that he can learn. Hmm Yeah, but it's it's true, isn't it? Yet you call it into existence, you become accountable. I think that's what it is to like when you're I think as creatives just what you were saying it's, it's almost like you and you've probably had loads of other people say this to you as well. You have to give yourself permission, don't you? Which is so stupid. To want to have those things. Yeah, to want to be the songwriter to want to have that album released and to know that you're just as deserving of that as somebody else. And it's not folly. It's not stupid. It's something that you really want to do so why can't you do it? Yeah, yeah. When you say it like that it sounds so simple. gets in the way of that it's actually yeah. I'm conscious. Mr. Something else I've been really sort of studying as well as is brainwaves and and how they affect us in everyday life. And why is it that when we're about to fall asleep is when the songs come to us and and I think from what the minimum minimal amount of research that I've done, I think your brain way seems to have a lot to do with it. When you're in a better state is when you're the most relaxed. Yeah. Yeah. When you're relaxed is when the ideas and the creativity come to you. I find, like over the years, like, like you say, when you're about to fall asleep, but also, when you're in that meditative state where you're not thinking about anything in particular, I know how many times over the years, I did a lot of yoga. And I'd get up from Shavasana. And be like, Oh, I've got the best idea. It just literally. And I think, I don't know if it was Einstein that started it was the first person to talk about this theta state and your brain the way that your brain is, and you're just Oh, okay. I can't remember that just rang a bell. As soon as you said, I thought, oh, yeah, you're going to talk about the theta state. And for some reason, I've got Einstein in my head. But yeah, it's like, you literally change your brain. That's just I don't know, because that's the thing I've always, I always find so fascinating, is how you can literally just get stuff in your head, like, yeah, it just comes in and it and it doesn't just come in like one thing. It comes in, like an entire tune and all the words and you're like, where did this come from? Exactly. Right. Yeah. It doesn't it so when, when I'll, so for my single that I released last year, and and people say oh, so what was the process? Blah, blah, blah. And when you when I tell people, it sounds so simple. It's like, oh, yeah, it came to me in 10 minutes. And it's the living daylights out of me, because that's not that's not what happens. Usually, when you sit when you write a song or create it, it doesn't always happen to you in 10 minutes. But yeah, it's funny how you could just be doing like the simplest of tasks, like sweeping the floor, or vacuuming or whatever. And I find actually hanging out washing, I get lots of ideas on a hanging of washing. Yeah, yeah. It's like those simple repetitive moves that your body just does like that muscle memory. Yes. And then brains. It's like, a walking meditation basically, like, yeah. But your brain is in that other state. Because, you know, if you sort of switched off from that, you know, the consciousness. Yeah, I wrote a song about what it what it's like to write a song. Cool. music in my head. It's literally like, like, it just, it just comes to you. Like, I think there was something in there like, I could be walking or in the shower, or, you know, wherever and like, it just comes to me like, it's just, I find it amazing. It's the worst thing. It is, is it and it is just because we're relaxed. When we try too hard. It's like we're just blocking ourselves and you feel it internally as well, don't you? You feel like your stomach's just, and your heart space is just gonna drip. Yeah. And it's open to receiving anything. I was watching an interview very quickly. On a real yesterday actually about Jack White, what you were saying about as creatives we are or songwriters, we are antennas only. And Michael Jackson said something about the fact that when we're creating we have to let God in the room. Yeah, and I'm not religious, but I'm very spiritual. And I get that I get that. We have to just let the energy come to us all. Yeah, you can't force control. Yes, you can't. But as soon as you start to force stuff, it's like you're literally banging against that. Yeah. It's like, like you said, you close off. That vessel is is not a thing. Yeah. It's amazing. I love it. I do I, I am I over COVID. I remember giving myself a challenge to write a song in 24 hours, I was sort of all about the challenges at the time. And because it was it was making me accountable. And it was helping me manage my time. And I already had a bit of the chorus anyway, but I didn't know what to put around it. So I thought, right, I'm gonna write a song 24 hours. And the next day happened. And I was just like, oh my god, I'm gonna write a second verse. It was that dreaded second verse didn't know what to do. And I was putting so much pressure on myself. And eventually I just thought, right, I'm gonna go for a walk. Actually, no, I'm gonna go for a run. And I went for a run and I came back and bam, there was my second verse. All of it. I did certainly. Well, one time I was writing. Pardon me. I just went for a walk. And I don't usually take my phone with me like I leave at home because I like to not be distracted and I don't like to listen to music when I'm walking. I like to just appreciate the world and hear the birds and you know, whatever. Yeah, and I literally wrote the song. And I was like, Oh, damn, I don't have anything to write it down or Oh, no. So I was like, repeating repeating it repeating it repeating. The house was like Don't talk to me. Don't talk to me. Clearly good. All right, good. Oh, I can relate. I can that's a hard relate there. Yeah, it's, uh, I was talking to someone else on this podcast. Katie Callahan actually is a singer songwriter in in the United States. And we were sitting here. And like, sorry, like, in the middle of not the middle of the night, but that moment where you, you about to fall asleep, and you get stuff and you're like, I have to record that I have to get that down. And like she'd have a phone. And she'd like, be hiding in the bathroom something to remember. And then you listen back to it, and you let that understand myself. I've got so many little notes on my phone of just random. Random so or I'll whistle it or try and whistle blowing into the microphone. Oh, God. Oh, absolutely. Oh, gosh. Yeah, I do the same thing. I'm like, I write down to the lounge room and get settled the same thing. And then as you said, yeah, the next morning and like, Yeah, but that feeling when you finally get it down, and then you can relax is like the best feeling in the world. Like, I don't have to keep this in my head anymore. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I guess it's that that age old thing where like the tighter you grip onto something, the easier it is for it to slip out out every fingers. Want it to leave me? I get like that sometimes. I had one the other day where I literally had a song in a dream. I was singing the song in my dream. But do you think I could get it back? No. That's so frustrating, isn't it? Sure. It was a really really good song to cage that's around you. So locked inside there's a voiceless paradise to break them. And then he's the stories of like Paul McCartney dreaming yesterday. And that's how do you do that? I know that that's yeah, he's pretty special. I think he's awesome. I'm a big Beatles fan. But Paul's My face is Hey, see, I was listening to your I was listening to the episode with Georgia fields the other day. Yeah. And I heard the conversation between the two of you and and, and I thought to myself, John's always been my favorite. Yeah. Even though I know is that of there are things that may be called into question. Like now by Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that he was very I liked the fact that he was quite controversial. Yes, everything was very clear on the statement that he wanted to make. Yeah, yeah. He really pushed those boundaries. Sydney. Yeah. And just did not give a shit. Yeah. Why didn't anyone else thought at all? But but then looking at at just the talent of Paul and watching that that. Go back. Yeah. Yeah. That wasn't that amazing. Incredible. And, you know, you knew that obviously that they were kind of like the perceived powerhouse of the the writing side of things. But just to watch Paul, direct everybody. And it's almost like if he wasn't there. Yeah, they would just kind of be floating around and he was the focus. He was the one that was able to go right. Come on. Let's let's I tell you what, when I watched that, I watched it. And I just sat there thinking How the hell did these plugs ever get anything done? Because the amount of stuffing around I said to my husband, it's a miracle we've ever got any Beatles records because I know. Sometimes I thought, like you'd guys like I'm watching it like, you know, I've never seen footage like that, that extended footage, you know, just no learning, you know, not just cut out the nice bits or the productive bits, but just everything. It was like, holy moly. Like, I don't know, it just it really. I've just thought well, you got it friggin and then you've got Ringo sitting there on the drums virtually stoned out of his brain every day. Like, are we doing something now? Like I know exactly like him. I think but yeah, I think to like, when I was younger, before, you know, as you know, you sort of think as you grow up, you get more mature and you can understand people more, and you have more perspective, whatever. I was always really cross at Yokote. But the older I got, I just thought it was inevitable that they were going to part ways like I honestly was a miracle they did as much as they did together. Because yeah, I was so opposite. Like, the more that John basically enlightened himself. And the more that he was able to explore that there's no way he could have stayed with Paul. You know, it just made sense. And yeah, so I think any crutches anymore? Oh, absolutely. No, no, if you're listening, okay. Good. No, I 100% agree. And I think that just kind of, as you said, it comes with maturity and your own experiences as well. And understanding Oh, hang on a second. We, we aren't always the same person as we go through life. Yeah, and there are some people that we will remain in our lives, but potentially will remain in our lives in a different way or Yeah, so yeah, you do understand exactly what happened there. It was literally like, yeah, like a couple that grew apart. You know, like, yeah, that was it. But it did freak me out a bit. How she was just sitting right there when they were playing. No, I sort of felt that was, uh, yeah. I sort of and she was really sort of putting her two cents worth in from time to time who wasn't she was quite interesting. Yeah. I didn't like it. She hadn't been derangement. Yeah, I say, yeah. You had an inducement come in. Yeah. And she was the polar opposite. She's just sort of like this breath of fresh air that was just quite happy just to sort of sit there and have a chat and understand that it was Paul. Yeah. The space. Yeah, I think she's a creative, you know, with that photography side of things. So I think she got that. Boundaries, perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. Saying that Yoko is quite creative herself. I don't know. Maybe it was a cultural thing. I don't know. Now. I'm just, you know, making judgments about people that I have no idea. Anyway. Conntrack not what do you have to ask what's your favorite Beatles album? I think it's Abbey Road. Yeah, right. Yeah. It was probably the first exposure that I had to The Beatles. When I was young mum, mum, my mum had the album. And I used to love listening to octopuses garden. Yeah, love, love, love that as a kid. But as I got older, when I was a teenager, I really got into them as well. And I just I did like the fact that it was very two distinctive writing styles. Very much. John side and Paul side and, and my favorite part actually, in the whole album is Maxwell's silver hammer. I'm so glad you say that. That is my favorite. Because we actually used to think some of the Beatles songs to the boys. So we'd always sing, bang, bang Maxwell's silver hammer or Max's silver hammer. We would sing to Zack get sack. So it made me actually seem it made me listen to Maxwell's silver hammer quite intensely at a point in time. And there's this little moment. I think it's in the third second or the third verse. Paul singing it and you actually hear him laugh? Yes. Yeah. Have you heard that? Yes. You can just imagine. Yeah. What is the clowning around in the control room? Trying to make him laugh? Yeah. Oh, yes. I know. It's funny. Paul does that every now and then there's a few other songs. It sounds like he's laughing too. And I just think yeah, now that I've seen that whole you know, the whole thing, I think, oh my god, what were they doing? Like, seriously, someone's praying with their silver hammer been silly. But ya know, that happened just has some of my favorite Beatles songs. Yeah. Yeah, come together something. Oh, I just love something. And I know that was George Harrison. And the very end of the whole album with that medley Yeah, gold. I get goosebumps when I hear that like that. No, I'm getting goosebumps now. Just that that that Latin that last that last little line like the love you love you make is equal to you take it was like oh my god, it's so far cry. Yeah. And I love those last few. How many like the last few chords? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just genius. Same Oh, absolutely. And I wanted to I knew I wanted to write a song. Maybe that was something that could be like the very last song in a concert or the closer of an album like just that song that just made you want to go wow, yeah, yeah, that that's big finish that big finale. Yes. Captured in that moment. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Have you done that? Have you written a song like that that you feel like you've cut I felt like I felt like my single last year was a bit like that. That was what I wanted to try and achieve with that even though it was my debut single that just huge. What was that song? Was that ghost? Yeah, that's those guys. Yep. Yep. Awesome. Yeah, so I I was a co produce with another producer, I sort of I wrote it and just produce the demo and the producer that I hired basically just tightened it up and just put on some better drums and some actual organic bass and guitar and that was it really the rest of it was was all me so. So do you do it on you play the instruments? Or is it you do it on the computer? Or how do you? How do you create that? So I will start on the piano. I'm not I'm a bit of a hack. When it comes to playing the piano. I'm not that confident with it. So I do find having the access to my DAW to be really being able to talk feeling like to be able to enunciate and articulate exactly, well not exactly because I'm still learning how to use it. But it I find it a lot easier to to express what I want to actually write with, with my songs through the through the studio and have access to the layer after layer and track after track rather than just relying on a piano. Yeah. But when I'm when I'm gigging and when I'm doing open mic nights, it is just me and my piano. So I do have to I do write, I will actually compose a song, a piano part on the song that I know that I'll be able to play when I'm singing rather than just being sort of the chords. Yay, me singing over the top. But it's certainly something that I don't naturally feel comfortable and confident. It's taken a lot of work. And I'm still working with that. I mean, I actually bought a, a headset. Oh, yes. Because I just find it's so stressful when I'm playing the piano and singing in public. So not only see where my hands are on the keys, like to remember where the microphone is, and being totally conscious of where that is. And if it's sort of slot starting to slip down, or oh, I've got it in the wrong position, but I can't move it. So I'm kind of playing and thinking and then I'm making mistakes, and I just find it just too difficult. So I thought get a headset don't matter what looks like stress out of it. And yeah, yeah. Because it's quite a spatial thing to like, knowing how far away you are from a mic, like how many times I've buddy hit a mic with my teeth or because like, I've just lost track of where it is. And you know, and that's not even playing as well. That's not accompanying myself. That's just me. Right? Yeah. You turn back around and go oh, there it is. Yeah, exactly. Every morning when I wake up, I keep my eyes closed as on picture in my day, all the carbons of my body and to the touch the phone. So I want to ask you, the rules songwriters of Melbourne that you've been doing some stuff with. Tell me about that. I have, ah real songwriters of Melbourne has been a lifeline. I first got exposed to them through COVID on Instagram, as I think a lot of people did. They've been going now for nine years. They're about to celebrate their ninth birthday. But do then are who started it? And is the CEO, I guess you could say CEO. She, it's her it probably didn't take off until COVID, either, because we were all looking for something outside of ourselves that as creatives helped us to feel like we weren't alone. And I mean, I was in a very fortunate position where I hadn't lost any money I knew lots of I got to know lots of people who lost so much work. And it started out as for me as being a way that I could meet other creatives because I had no, I knew no one. Yeah. I had other mums around, but they weren't singer songwriters, or anything like that. So it was lovely to be able to start to network online. And I guess because of of the confidence that I have in myself now, just, I guess, through getting older, I found it very easy to make myself stand out, but not in a bad way and not to tread on other people's toes. But just being friendly and being supportive of other people and wanting to get to know other people and wanting to get to know other people's stories and realizing that, hey, I've got a story to tell too. And I think I could actually, I think a lot of people could who are younger than me could benefit from listening to my story. And they are amazing at being able to point you in the right direction, to releasing a song or finding in through finding information for you about the industry, the networking nights that they put on, they always have a speaker. And they've had people from publishing companies have had people from Apple or m cos they've had people from music, which Toria just all these amazing people speaking that you would not even know where to start looking. Or you wouldn't have that personal contact with them. Even if it's through an email or sending a bunch of emails or getting on DMS or whatever, then you just, and sometimes you don't even know these people exist or what they do in the music industry, because it's so complicated. There's so many different different people that do different things. And that's yeah, like, that's the thing I find a bit frustrating, like, there's no straight line of how you do stuff. Like know, whenever, like I discovered all this stuff by accident. Like just by, you know, like you register yourself with a pram cost and you can get paid when you perform. I didn't know that before, you know, and put it on the air at stuff on the radio. So the community radio he's like can get access to. And so now if I ever come across anyone who's releasing something who like I just tell them all this stuff. I'm like, I don't know if you know this or not, but do this and do this and get this number and do that. And you know, like there's just absolutely, there's no way you can go that just says this is how you do it. Yep. No, that's right. And that's something that I have found with the real songwriters. They are that that's the Yeah, that's their role. And they have released academies where people can just basically be given that timeline of what to do from the moment you start recording or even like finding a producer or finding somebody to collaborate, collaborate with and right down to promotion and release dates. And yeah, so we've been we're really fortunate here in Melbourne and even regional Victoria as well, that there is that access to all the information that you need, particularly as an emerging songwriter who is doing it on their own. Yeah, yeah, I've learned that everybody has a place at the table that it's all about collaboration, not competition, like it used to be and that's been really reassuring. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom I was in need. I am not going to say this in a nice way because I'm a similar age. too, but do you feel like at some point, people think you're irrelevant in music? Because of your age? No, because I don't let them. Yeah, good on you. I don't let them at all. I refuse to believe that I'm irrelevant. I refuse to sit back now and go, nope, I'm too old. And I think actually, that it works in my favor. Because I do feel very strongly about the fact that as a woman, and as a mother. We aren't irrelevant. We still have so much to say. And we probably have more to say, because we have lived more. Yeah. And I think it's our responsibility as older women to forge the path for younger women, something that I've learned a lot just in conversations that I've had with lots of other younger female songwriters. And I mean, we only only had a conversation just really recently, at a performance that I did fall real songwriters. And it was one of the other artists that we sat down, unfortunately, the conversation was interrupted, but she was asking me how old I was, How many children do I have? How old was I when I first started having children. And she said to me, she said, It's just inspirational to listen to somebody who isn't who who has had children later on in life. I mean, I was 35 when I had Macs, and she said that she had just broken up with her boyfriend, she was 29. And there was a part of her that sort of wanted to go back to him because she felt like she was going to miss out on that whole, having a child experience. And I've had lots of conversations with lots of girls who have gone like, I'm seeing my friends getting married and having babies and I'm feeling like I'm missing out. And it's just like following your heart. I'm here to tell you, it doesn't matter. There is no linear timeline as to how you do things. If you want to keep creating, everything will just fall into place. Yeah. Yeah. So I Yeah, and that's been a big thing for me. Now is to just be that advocate to go pay. I started doing this seriously. When I was 44. Yep. So it's never too late. Yeah. Yeah. No, good on. Yeah, that's great. I guess maybe? I think probably I haven't, I haven't been, I haven't been in this side of the music industry long enough to see things occur with attitudes of, I guess, the patriarchy. Having an attitude that you're done by the time you're 21. And if you haven't made it by the time you're 25, then you're no one and I haven't been exposed to that side of things. So I'm lucky that I can remain optimistic. Whereas I think there's lots of other female artists who have been in the music industry who have seen a lot more than I have. And potentially find it a lot more difficult to, to keep going. Yeah, it's interesting, I've just started working with. I mean, I knew that the music industry was literally to business, right? The commercial radio, the signing, record labels, whatever, then just for this album that I'm releasing, I've just started working with a proper rep that I've never done, I'll never forget before, because I want this, I mean, this is what I say every time I don't know if this will be the last album I get to make, you know, so I want to do it properly, I guess. And and so it's amazing. When you they sent me this this like a you know, like you have a family tree with all the bits going everywhere. It was like that of the music industry. And it's like, if you can stay away from all that other bullshit and be independent, you've got so much more chance of remaining true to yourself, not having to do with all the the white men that make all the decisions for you. Making really great connections with people in community radio, and, and getting your music to the people who will genuinely be connected to it and be being flipped not influenced by that I'm affected by it and feel something by it. And it's like why the hell would anyone ever want to sign their life away? You know, to these big businesses like it doesn't make sense. And I was even saying so Max's has been wanting to play guitar now for the last 18 months, and he he's insanely good. Yeah. I mean, I know everyone says that about their kids. Yeah. But as a musician, you sort of know whether they are or not. Exactly, yeah. And just seeing the passion that he has for it. And he's still, because he's still so new at it in his little mind. He, he's thinking, it's all about sort of like getting the record company and signing the contract. And that's what it is. And I can't remember what we were watching. But we had a conversation very quickly about the music industry and, and the business behind it. And, and he was talking about, like, bands selling out and singles and blah, blah, blah. And I said, Look, this is what happens when you're signed to a record label, you actually don't get the voice, you don't get a voice, you don't get a choice as to what song you release, you are told and you are a product. And you are dispensable and disposable. And as you said, it is an asset. It's a business. That's why it is called business. Nothing to do with the music is just there a product it the music is the thing that you're selling, like if you sold shoes or something, you know, I hated shows like Australian Idol and that it's like you're literally trying to find someone who's going to make money for you. You know, and over the years, like my sister and I both sing and peoples are you guys should go on Australian, I was like, I was so firmly against it. Because I just was so cynical of that world with good reason that, you know, they're gonna take you they're gonna turn you into something else that they want, that's going to make more money that's more marketable, or, you know, and I just go night that that's not for me. I don't want. And I also I don't think, I don't know, I just want to be who I am. And that sounds like it's a cop out like, I don't know, no, no, no, no, not at all. I don't want to I don't want to go wear some clothes that I don't that don't suit me or change my hair. Like I just want to be who I am. That's it. And I think you're happier that way, too. Yeah, thank you for being like that, Oh, I hate those shows with an absolute passion. And yeah, and anyone who knows me know, who's how I don't like to rent I used to when I was younger, but I don't like to rent anymore. But if you really let me go, I'd be like, All right, let me tell you. But I guess to the general population who don't have the kind of access that we have, I mean, we're in a really privileged fortunate position where we have first hand experience. What it is, I mean to someone, there's so much to think about, like standing in a recording studio is just so beyond the realms of fantasy for most people. Whereas for people like you and I, it's nothing to die young going into the studio when she's dead. Yeah, like literally like, Yeah, ah, yeah, it's funny. And but that's the thing once you know, it freaks you out. Because you know that, you know, when I realized how songs got onto commercial radio, I was like, that they're paid. Like, it's to do with the deals that they make with the record companies to play this song, like, and I was like, There's no way I'm ever going to hear my music on that. And it's like, well, that's great. So I'll forget about that. And I'll just, you know, focus on the things that, that I can do. And it's like, yeah, when not everyone wouldn't know you that, you know, like, no, absolutely not, particularly, I think when you're younger, as well. And you do just have that. That idea of, that's what it is, and you're famous, like I remember teaching singing for a little while back in the late 90s, early 2000s. And, and I remember a couple of students sort of Britney Spears was massive at the time and I show my age and and I remember a lot of them sort of saying I want to record contract and and saying, You know what? It's not about having the record contract, and then everything falling in your lap and just explaining to them as best I could before they just sort of saw it has been white noise, what it actually entails and it's someone literally giving you a loan that you miss how you have to pay back. Yes. And if you don't pay it back a bit through record sales and touring, then you aren't you're still owing money. No thanks. Yeah. So yeah, it's just it's, that's what people are exposed to when they're young. They're watching Australian Idol and things like that on TV indefinitely. millionaire thinking oh, this is what it is to this. This is the way to become famous. And this is the way to to be a millionaire. And yeah, it's easy. Easy. Yeah, exactly. And I think what sort of makes me really annoyed about those those sorts of programs too is when they they lock on to say an old person who says, This is my last chance. That's like, yeah, so for bloody television play. Yeah, that'd be the less than about those shows about that. Yeah. And, look, I could, no, I'll stop now. I won't stop again. I know, saying that's the thing. I know, actually. Just Just to quickly, yeah, one more point, I do remember going on to the application form of the voice just to see what it was about. Because I, I remember googling about what the actual contractual obligations are of the contestants. And, and I went on to the onto the application form, and there is actually a bit on the application form that asks, Who would you dedicate this performance? To? So they're fishing? Yeah, for the story? Yeah. Yeah, that story? Yeah. And I thought, there it is. That's what they want. They want that sob story. Yeah. So like bullshit Sarah? We're changing tack slightly, I want to talk to you about something I like to talk to people about the value of their art or their creativity. And you mentioned before that your music is a hobby. How do you because you don't necessarily earn, you know, a massive income from your music? Does that, in your mind diminish at all? The value of it? Overall? No, not at all. Yeah, I think because I'm still learning how to do it with the object in mind that this is how I do want to earn money. So I think I'm still sort of walking up that ladder, to get it to that point, and to know that it's okay to want to earn money from it. But that it is, it's, I think, also, too, when you have that in the back of your mind, sometimes that puts a bit of pressure on I know, it puts pressure on me. So I'm quite happy to know that my art still has value, because I'm still putting out putting it out into the world. And it's something that comes uniquely from me. And it's wonderful If people hear it and relate to it, even if it's just one person. So no, I don't think it does diminish it at all. And I part of the reason why I wanted to start creating and learning how to access that part of myself was to show my children that it doesn't matter how old you are, you are always learning and you can always learn a new skill. And we are never taught at school, the process of learning at all. We're just expected to sit down and absorb information where it's not linear. It's not like once you've cracked something, oh, I can do this now. And you keep doing it. No, it's always two steps forward one step back. There's always frustrations there's always that feeling of oh, I did this yesterday. Why can't I do it today? Yeah, that feeling so I think that in and of itself is art. Yeah, that learning process. So it's all valuable. Yeah. in any form. Any money from modern art? Yes, that's I knew you were gonna say that. I sort of I've got to work out a way of wording that question so it's not so walking you into it? Yeah, no, that's fine. Oh, yeah. No my arts crap because I don't make money from it. and also to I see, I've got a cousin, who is a singer as well. But she is a completely different style to me. And we really, sadly don't have a lot to do with each other, which is quite sad. But at the same time, she still is in the old music industry mindset of competition. And I think that's potentially why we don't ever really get on. Or she sees me as a threat. I don't know. But I kind of feel like she's feeling like that we're in competition. And I see how much stress and pressure she has placed on herself in the past with making albums. And I think the last album that she made one of the songs that she did actually got a nomination for Best song for the golden guitars up in Tamworth, I think back in 2013. But she had placed so much pressure on herself that if this album didn't do any good, she wasn't going to do it anymore. No. And I think that's really, really sad. Yeah. That she was just it for me. That's not art. No, that's that's running a business isn't like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think now she is actually a surgical nurse. And I think like any creative, you put it on the shelf, we put it to bed for a number of years and kind of go up and up. But I don't want to I'm not ready to do that yet. It kind of hurt me a little bit. But I think now she's at that point where she's, she's wanting to start to get back into it. I know, she is actually singing in cover bands up in Tamworth now. So she's getting back into that side of things. But I think she's actually really from what I hear. She's actually really keen to get back into writing again. But yeah, just I think it's really sad when we placed pressure on ourselves that yes, we have to make money and this has to do really, really well. And yeah, no, not that's not for me. I think that that whole thing, it just takes away that ability to like we were talking before about being in those states or being in those, you know, mindset to be creative. It just shuts all that down. Yeah, exactly. Just doesn't doesn't work. That's it. I mean, it's it's gonna be fun. Yeah, absolutely. God, I can't be stressful. No, I want it to be stressful. That's the thing like you've got enough stress in your life with you know, families and kids and jobs and whatever else in the thing that you do for fun. You want it to be fun. Yeah, exactly. Stop stop. Your stub stub stub that you mentioned you, your boys there how you sort of showing them, you know, different things. Do you feel like it's good for them to see you as not just mom and I always say that Jasmine, because you're not just mom. So we're never just man, but that you do things outside of your mothering role, I guess? Absolutely. Yeah. It took them a long time to understand. They would see me go to choir. Yeah. And every every Monday night and it would be sort of quickly shoveling going down my throat and off I went. And for a long time it would be like lag and leaving. Why are you going and they just didn't understand that and I distinctly remember one day doing something writing something and and Max coming out I don't even know how old he was he probably about seven or eight coming into me and just going mom, you shouldn't be making music. You should be making my lunch so no, I think it's very important for them to see that. I have other interests outside of being a mum and I know lots of mums will agree when when you say that it makes you a better mum. Because you're happy and it will there will come a time when they will understand me they understand now I fully but yeah, when they were when they were little they didn't obviously but I I know after releasing my single last year, that they are our are very proud of me, even though Max probably wouldn't admit it, but it was one of the twins, Zach was always he's always telling people at school that I seen and he's always showing what I do on a showing Spotify and showing all his friends and everything that I'm doing. And I helped out at a cross country thing for one of the twins classes a few weeks ago, and a little girl came up to me and she's just like, you're on the internet. So, yeah, I think they need to see that I am doing something that I really enjoy. And it makes it makes me happy. It's part of who I am. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it is very important that I'm, I'm particularly too because I don't work. So it's, it's even more important for them that they see that I am, Mum, but I am also me, as well. And I have an identity, because you know what it's like when you when when you first got children, you're known as Max's mom. And it's like, I don't have a name. I was gonna say that earlier, actually, when you're talking about the twins, when you get to talk with in the street, like I recall, you know, people see you and they'd straightaway just latch on to the baby. And it's like, I'm actually here, you know, I'm the one that thinks like, I'm the one that's keeping them alive. But you know, to worry about me. And they'll be with the three of them get to like Florida. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you are, you do just kind of become this soulless figure, don't you when you first become a mother. And that's really, I think it's really, really difficult to reconcile with. Because so suddenly, everyone else's life, I remember being pregnant with Max and sitting in the lounge room one night, just in tears, because I just thought, I'm the first one in my friendship group to have a baby. I hadn't met my mom's group at this point in time. And everyone else's life will go on as normal. Even to a certain extent, my husband, he still gets to go to work and come home. Whereas my whole life in the blink of an eye is going to change. And I think that that was a really, really difficult realization for me. And I remember actually feeling very angry and very upset about that. A little while, and just feeling this is not fair. Yeah. But you get over it, don't you? In your arms, you're like, Oh, fine now? Well, not really. I know you made it. So fat in the end, eventually, I think it through the help of, you know, continuing your creativity, just to remind yourself that you still have these skills and abilities and gifts. It's like they don't just disappear suddenly, when the baby pops out. Like no, no. Exactly, absolutely. I was even. I've been doing some some tuition with with a producer over in the UK, Aubrey Whitfield, and she is just about to have her first child in June. And she is an incredibly busy producer. And she cannot get over the attitude towards her with some people in terms of if she, for example, isn't able to get a song to an artist on time because she's been tired or she's had morning sickness. And it's amazing just how unforgiving. People are like it's yeah, we know we're not sick. But you do just have to cut pregnant women a little bit of slack. And even when I was really heavily pregnant with the twins, I got onto the tube and the train. And I had a little like baby on board badge and I was quite big at this point in time. And there was a man sitting in the special seat. And he was surrounded by bags and I looked at him and I say Excuse me, could I please sit down? And he looked at me and he was French, just from the accent. He was just like, but I have all these bags and I was like bye Baby bags get off. Oh my god. Yeah, that's it, isn't it like, like a hug to someone else the other day like, we're literally continuing the human race, you know, without us having children birthing children, the world would end. But no, you can't sit down because my bags are on the floor. You know? That's it. I know. And I know that there are some people, some women that potentially do come across as being entitled, because they are mothers, and they have birthed children, and they feel entitled for the world. For them to park the seas and the world to revolve around them. I do get that. But at the same time, yeah, it's just like, rolling a person in me. My choice, but I just don't get that like that she couldn't happen. Like you lose sight of the of those the amazingness of the whole thing? I don't know. It's really sad to think that we're just not supported. Yes. Yeah. We should be. Yeah. And I think it's again, it's a it's a Patrick patriarchy thing, I suppose where we're, this is what we are meant to do. So yeah, why do we feel like we should be needing like, preferential treatments? And I think that's where it stems from? Yeah, I think so it is a lot going on there. But I'll stop myself. Because if I start Oh. Bla. Jana, you just I want to ask you, if you've had sort of anything experience with mum guilt, over the years, when it comes to your music it's funny because I've been thinking about this a lot. Um, maybe from time to time in the early days? I did. Because they were little. And they were needing me. And I didn't have the help around me. Where I didn't have like a mom close by or a sister close by who I could just be like, Look, can you take the kids for the day just so I can do this? And I'm fine. So I think in the early days, I did, particularly when I first started like doing choir, for example, and leaving them and thinking that yeah, I feel guilty for leaving them. But thankfully, with the help of my husband as well, I was able to let that go quite quickly and understand that I need to do this. And I'm not going to be a good mom, if I'm going to put that guilt on myself. Because they the kids get over it. Don't they like that? They might be like, Oh, Mom, where are you going? What are you doing? But then to seven years later, it's just like, Oh, look at that. It's like jewelry from off to the next thing distractions did exactly, exactly. i My eldest for quite a long time. Actually, it wasn't just the music thing, it would be like if I put into bed and then I'd quickly pop off up to the shops because it was easier to do it on my own obviously, because I didn't have to haul three kids out of the car. So it would just be ducking up to Kmart or something like that to do something and I would come home. And Max had been in bed for an hour or more and he'd be waiting for me to get home. And then the moment I'd walked through the door, he come out of his bedroom and give me a hug and say to me why Where did you go What I didn't, why are you leaving that kind of thing. And that happens a lot when he was little. And I couldn't work out why but my husband and I like why are you doing this? Like why Mom's coming home? And I spoke to my grandmother about it. And she said to me she she made a really good point. And she said to me, maybe because he's always told that if he goes out on his own, that he has to be careful and something might happen to him. Maybe he feels that something like that is going to happen to you and I thought oh my My goodness may potentially be what it is. Yeah, right element of worry of this is a date not a dangerous place because you don't want it to be just a dangerous place. But yeah, yeah, it's just like, I'm not allowed on Maya out on my own. So I don't want you Yeah. Which I've just thought that's a really valid point. And the moment I started to reframe it in that way, I became a lot more empathetic to him. Yeah, rather than getting frustrated with it. Yeah. Hmm. At the moment, my seven year old is going through this Age of Reason where he discovers that he's a, I don't know, a sentient being, and he's controlling his thoughts and also realizes that people die. And that when his parents who died, oh, wow, conversations of evenings, like, Oh, of course, at bedtime, you know, when when there's nothing else to do but think. So yeah, he's had a shocking few nights, I've actually had to be back in there with him, helping him to fall asleep, which I haven't, you know, years and years and years and years. Yeah. So to my husband, we have to be really kind to him and not tell him off. And even though we're frustrated that we've, you know, can't get some time to a sales, but you know, it'll pass but yeah, that's it, isn't it? And it's very easy to look at it from an adult perspective. And think, why you're doing this for like, yeah, you're being really illogical. And you're being silly. Like, it's, that's Yeah, but when you look at it from their point of view, and then I think that happens when you start to just be kind to them and understanding and Yeah, Mike appealing rational to us. Yeah, yeah. But it's a very real problem. Yeah, that's it. He said to me the other day, he just wanted to sit with me. So I just want to spend as much time as I can with you before you know. And then I thought back to my, my eldest who is 15. And when he he went through it a lot younger. He was like, everything he did was early, he talked early, like everything was early. And I remember thinking, God, you weren't like this. At seven. He was like, a lot earlier. And he said a thing to me, he said, are when you die, I don't want them to put you in the ground. I'll go in the ground with you. So I don't miss you. And I've always remembered that and I think oh my god. That's how that's how he's rationalizing. Losing, you know, people. Yeah, God, it's big. Isn't it? Like, being a little person and having that massive thing? So? Oh, yeah. That just reminded me when you're talking about your little man, yeah, it's a real version of an existential crisis read literally, isn't it? Yeah. All of a sudden, there's this whole extra thing happening. And you're aware of so many other things that you didn't really get like, you knew it was there. But you didn't understand the magnitude of it, I suppose. And how it would affect you and your your emotions related to it. Yeah, it's pretty Yeah, exactly. Wow. Yeah. Tell you what betimes makes you think it does bring you back as an adult to think about important things like that, I think to think, I don't know, you take that stuff for granted, I guess. And then, when someone little person says that you think Oh, Jesus. Yeah. Because I guess it feels like such a long way away for them to be dying. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's when you sort of start to think, oh, hang on a second. You see your grandparents passed away. If you're lucky enough that you're an adult, you still have your grandparents. I mean, I'm lucky enough. I've still got one grandmother, she's 91. And I just think to myself, once she goes, then it's my parents, and they're in their 70s Now, and they are facing their mortality as well. And my dad had a cancer scare last year, and that's really changed him profoundly, as well. So just kind of thinking wow, like the last 20 years have gone really quickly. And if I'm lucky enough, I've still will have hopefully my parents in another 20 years but at the same time, what is their health going to be like? And it's sobering, isn't it? Yeah, that it just it's Yeah. And to be like my grandmother and think to yourself, I wonder how much longer I have left? Yeah, I do. We have haven't we've gone down this path. But I do that and I think I have these like every few few years. I guess you have this time. More, you just literally take stock and you like what you've just said they're like, Okay, so I'm 40 nearly 40 5am I halfway through or am I, you know, three quarters of the way through? Like, will I get to see my children to have children? You know, will I be grandmother? And you just think, oh my god, this is like life. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it makes you and I think when I turned 40, I thought to myself, I've tried not to sort of see the new decade as being this threatening thing. And I was fine leading up to my 40th birthday. But I remember when I did turn 40 All of a sudden, it just hit me. Oh, who am I? Who am I? I'm not this sort of bouncy little kind of like blond haired Jojo, that everyone has known me. I don't identify with her anymore, but I don't know who I am now. And it very, it was a real shock to the system to go. Whoa, I don't think I'm actually not having a midlife crisis. But I have actually hit the next chapter in my life. Like I am actually all grown up now. Yeah, yes. But yeah, with that sense of maturity, you you do stuff. Right. Well, I don't know how much longer I do actually have. Yeah, yeah, it's tremendously sort of start weightlifting. As I say when it's daring definitely. Right anything coming up that you'd like to share? I am. I haven't decided yet, which I'm going to actually release some singles or whether I'm actually going to release an EP. My goal for by the end of this year is to actually release some music, some more music, but I'll be doing it completely self released in terms of honing my own mixing and mastering skills, they're not getting any outside help. That's exciting. Yeah, I'm really excited about it. And just to, to have that catalog of songs on Spotify, a friend of mine did some research really recently. And I don't know what she was looking at. But it was basically saying that when people look at your Spotify profile, they actually want to see that there's more than one song, they want to see a catalog of songs, which I don't have. So that's what I want to do, I want to just have that catalog. And just, they don't have to be perfect. And I'm not going to promote them as heavily as what I did with my last single know that I have done it. And I've gotten more music out there that I've shared properly. And I will actually release another single where I will really promoted heavily like I did with my single last year, but and I will actually get some outside help with that. Because that particular song, I feel like I won't do it justice and I just doing it myself. It's not quite how I want it. And my skill set at this point in time can't elevate it to the level that I want it to be at. So yeah, I will do that, hopefully by the end of the year as well. But it's, as we all know, it's just finding the time to fit that kind of stuff in and in between like running the kids to basketball and volunteering at school and doing all that kind of stuff as well as running patients in the house. So yeah, so that's the goal. Stay tuned. Yes, that's exciting. That's it and I can appreciate that it's quite daunting to take that next step. and do stuff by yourself, then to trust that you have the skills to be able to do and believe in yourself, too. I think that what do they call it that? I always forget what it's called. Now this gone, but when you don't think you're good enough, you think that are important syndrome? Yeah, yeah. Get over that and say actually, no, I do know what I'm doing. And I am going to do it. I think that's awesome. Going on. Yeah. Well, I, I would like to start producing other people's songs as well, eventually, I'd love that. That's kind of the dream for me is to not only write and produce my own stuff, but to also help other people as well other artists and collaborate with other artists in that way. I'm and I feel like I'm a long way away from that at this particular point in time, but I think I've thought for a while now, I've always thought to myself, it's an expensive hobby, releasing music. And so if I can learn to do a lot of it myself, yeah, rather than spending $1,000 on someone else doing it for me, I'd rather spend that $1,000 and learn how to do it myself, as they say, teacher, give him give a person a fish, they'll eat for a day, teach a person to fish in the lake for the life for the lifetime. So that's how I see it. Yeah. And learning continuing to learn like that. So yeah, I think that's a very recurrent thing that I've heard just, you know, it's a theme that's coming through a lot today. It's great to keep, keep learning and yeah, not settling, I suppose. Yes, the hard part is not being distracted and thinking, Well, I'd like to learn how to do that too. And I was learning the drums. And I still want to keep learning. But I actually started to think you know what, I'm getting off way more than I can chew. I do need to start honing in on some things. The producing side of things under the belt first, and then we'll go back to learning the drums because that was fun. That was so much fun. with like, the, all of that sound engineering side of stuff, like does your brain work in that, that way? It's starting to, yeah, it's really starting to. It's starting to really listen to things now and think about like the frequency spectrum then. And I haven't really quite nailed down compression yet. I'm getting there. But these courses that I've been doing with this producer over in the UK, she's completely self taught. But just the way, she teaches everything, it just makes it sound so easy. And it is easy, the way she just kind of breaks things down. And articulate articulates it it just takes away any of the complicated stuff that you may find on YouTube, like it's taken me, it took me a really, really, really long time just through like YouTube tutorials to get a grip with a get a grip on lots of different things that I wanted to try and try and do in my studio. And I learned more in three months with Aubrey than and got more confident with it in three months. And what I did in three years is insane. Yeah. So now, I know that I can lift up the laptop. And I can listen to something now and be like, right, I want to have a little bit of delay at this point. And I know how to do it. Yeah, rather than Yeah. So it's learning another language and I find it fascinating. So now, the way I listened to music is totally different. Yes. So what I used to I used to just listen to it from a singers aspect. Words and Music words and Melody top line. Now, it's like, right, so how did they achieve the excitement in this space with the music? So what sounds did they use and how many layers and all this sort of stuff that I that I was I was being taught in high school, that at the time I didn't care about like, why is the cello there so but now it's like, oh, right, I can I can see the I can hear the intention behind why they're playing particular things. Like I'm probably a little bit too analytical. But I don't see that for myself as being a downside. If I I guess if my husband's sort of going I don't like this and I'm like yes, but you have to see why they don't. When you have that knowledge, it's almost too much. Yeah. Oh, I can I can relate to that. was just listening to the singer. And I was totally the same when I made my first album. When I was working with the producer I was working with he was like now what? What sort of sound Can you visualize for this? And I'm like, I was coming at it from my point of view. He's like, Oh, no, but what about the instruments? I'm like, I don't know. Isn't that what you do? Like it was, like saloon and understand. And now the second album, I'm like, telling them what I want. Because I can, it is another language like I can actually feel like I can communicate in that way. Now, it totally different, totally different and it's great. I love I love that, that awareness. But with this sound, sound engineering stuff, literally, I just go. I know how to make the things work that I know that I want to do. And then I don't fiddle with anything else, because I've got to touch things. I don't move things that don't fit. Oh, yeah, that's good. Leave it like that. Yeah. I know, it's funny. When I when I was working with with my producer, for my single, there was a certain part in the song that he must have sent it back to me maybe six times, and it still wasn't achieving the sound that I wanted it to achieve. And, and I kept sort of saying to him, like this naturally sort of pushed up further and this. And I mean, I know as producers, you do get so used to working with vocalists and artists who don't know how to get the desired effect that they want. Yeah. And it got to a point where I just thought, oh, you know what, it's just going to be so much easier if I just go back into the studio, and we actually just sit down. Yeah, and go through it. And I had this epiphany of thinking, Oh, my goodness, I'm trying to do more, more more. Why don't I actually figure out what can be taken out. So make this part stand out. And it was just a totally different perspective that I had never even it never even entered my mind that that's sometimes what you have to do. And so, we got it done in half an hour, I went into the studio, and I was like, right, I thought about it. What are the instruments that are there? What can we take away? And we worked out what it was and bam, the sound appeared. Oh, there you go. I love that. That's so yeah, but as as Bruce said, in the tutorials, she's she's, I'm doing actually funnily enough a vocal production thing now and like so getting up at like one in the morning because it's a live zoom session at four o'clock in the afternoon UK time. She had we did she did a whole module last weekend on how to work with singers who really don't know what they're doing. They, like don't even know how to sing to a metronome. And I I know Right, exactly. You just sort of think I could you know yeah, that's it. That boggles my mind. But she said she was actually saying that it happens more frequently than what you expect. Wow. So learning how to literally be prepared for anything. Whoa. I never thought about that before. Yeah, so there's there's been quite a few times where my I've gone to bed and then my alarms gone off at like 10 to two in the morning and then I'm up until 330. The couple of weeks ago actually I had a gig about an hour and a half away and we didn't finish until 1230 and I got home at two o'clock and the session was starting at two o'clock. Oh, like jumping in the shower because I was really really sweaty. Jumped in the shower and quickly logged on and got to bed at yeah at 330 Oh yeah. Have to ask your your Instagram is like Dragon Fly industry dragonfly industry. Yeah. Where did that name come from? Right. So I wanted to actually separate my identity of myself and the project because I felt if I had a little bit of detachment from that it wasn't it wasn't including my My whole identity in the project. Yeah, and, and I was fascinated with people who had artist names that weren't a name. And the one that kept coming to me was Japanese wallpaper. And and that's just one guy. I can't remember his name now. I thought it'd be really cool to have an artist name like that. I can hear it on the radio now, like, debut single by dragon flying industry. And I thought it had to be sort of something that potentially could be visual. And I wanted something that included like the idea of me taking off like growing wings and flying. Yeah. And I thought birds and butterflies, cliched overused. I wonder what else there is. And I meditated. When I just didn't remember this. I meditated one Saturday afternoon, it wasn't like I was meditating on it at all. But I was meditating. And I started having a discount, like just a conversation with my late grandfather, mid meditation, and was washing up maybe half an hour later. And then all of a sudden thought, Oh, my goodness dragonfly. I wonder if that has any symbolic meaning. And so I looked it up. That means things like maturity and adaptation, and let me have a look. It just it really, really just resonated to a point where I was just like, shot. Real? And yes, so then I thought, right. Dragonfly. Hmm. I'm building as well. And, and then I thought industry. I wonder what the Oxford Dictionary like I wonder what the actual definition of industry is. And it was something like manufacturing and building from raw supplies. And that just, Oh, that is perfect. And I had felt in the conventional way. And then I had someone say to me when they saw dragonfly industrial in a lineup for an open mic night, that he was really intrigued to find out what it was because when he looked at the words, it actually looked like it was something from the corporate world. No, I don't want that. I don't want no. Yes. So I thought I would change the spellings a little bit. But little did I realize that I was potentially shooting myself in the foot because I'm continually telling people out spell it will be okay. And every live it's all a dream. It's like exploring canvas on one screen. A Chat is the truth of broken lines. The bedtime story is that a threat has only drama. Thank you so much for coming on. Joe. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Yeah, thanks for sharing all your bits and bobs and, and indulging me where I've wandered off on the tangent. Oh, don't worry, I've done the same thing. That's been great. And yeah, I'll put all the gather up all your links and put them in the show notes. So people want to follow along with you. Safari. Here. Barry. Yeah, and all the best. I hope you Yeah, have a have a good time making new singles and or deciding it's an EP, whatever you just keep an eye out for. Yeah, thanks again. So much. It was great. It was so good fun. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Alicia Lis Verso Australian singer, songwriter and musician S1 Ep01 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Welcome to my new podcast. I am thrilled to have you here! My first guest is Alicia Lis is a Melbourne based singer, songwriter & guitarist, high school teacher, and a mum of 2 boys. We chat about how she manages the different 'compartments' in her life, how important support is from others and the importance of modelling hard work to her children. Alicia Soundcloud / Youtube / Instagram Podcast instagram / website Alicia's music used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. got a hold of me and my guest today is Alicia verso who goes by the stage name Alyssa Liz. She is a Melbourne based singer, songwriter, and guitarist. Welcome to the podcast, Alicia. Thank you so much, Alison. It's a pleasure to be here part of your podcast and your very first one too. Yeah, so exciting. This is this is great. Thank you for being here. So for those who may not be familiar with you Angel music, could you tell us a little bit about yourself? Well, what can I say I'm mature age. And I'm just like me and I'm 40 I'm actually few days shy of 41. And I'm just after a really long break getting back into the music industry. I started studying when I was you know, sort of straight out of high school, studied music and had you know, high hopes and ambitions to to write music record it which I did start doing and gigging and I started doing that, you know, started doing both gigging with a, you know corporate duo slash trio. And also also with my original music with a with another artists that I met at, at TAFE we would do you know, our own stuff together. And she played bass I play guitar. And yes, I took a took a long break. And so really, my my music is to start off with was very contemporary, kind of, you know, sort of you think back in the early sort of 2000s It was very much like indie type bands where, you know, a lot of the music and listening to were musicians that play their own instruments that wasn't there was sort of starting to merge using electronic looping but not as much waves I love Joel are crowded house, Pete Murray, just trying to think I loved you too, back then. Yeah, just a lot of a lot of those types of that genre. And then when I started studying, it was very much a fusion of jazz and blues with a little bit of contemporary element to it. But that overdoing like going to VCA or you know, studying classical, yeah, that is, you know, you know, how can you not, you know, two years of studying that got quite influenced with jazz and blues and so there was like, one of my songs that were quite heavily influenced the shape up with that genre. And, and so, yes, I've kind of got a little bit of that influence now. But a lot of the stuff that I've written was 15 years ago, and so now I'm, you know, looking now forward to start writing some new material. So that's kind of being a bit of a challenge to find the time. So you and I first met on Instagram a few months ago, through and online Stage Door singing competition, which you won. Congratulation mask. Fantastic. And then you also had some success recently with your song shape up which won the June competition on radio Easterns Talent Search. Congratulations on that too. You've won a bit of a roll at the moment. No, absolutely. And three's a charm. I'm wondering what number three is going to be? To buy a lotto ticket maybe. So tell us a little bit about your family, then you kids and that kind of thing? Yeah, well, I've got two boys. I was actually just talking to Harvey this morning. I had I had a vivid dream, and I never have them. And I was pregnant. In my dream. So I was like, no, no. Unless, unless, you know can be I can audits a girl. But still, I'm done and dusted. So two boys, Max is going to be 11 in a bit over a week. And I've got Jackson, there's a bit of an age gap between the two who's five, almost five and a half. And so both at school, which is great. And so I've got hubby as well, who's really super supportive of my, my aspirations on on, you know, taking a leap into back into the music industry. For myself. And yeah, we've been together for over 2020 years now, I think 2322 23 years, something like that. That's great. You see music a little not at all. So I'm a bit of a lone wolf in the family. None of my boys have been really super interested in music ALA. Yeah. You never know. So that that style of competition the stage or being all online, did you find that that really suited you with the kids being at home? Or are you finding a bit easy to get out? More these days? Look, I really, I enjoyed it being at home. And like, with like me saying my husband's very supportive. He, he really, if I need to, like even just for this afternoon, if I really need them out of my hair, you'll either you know, take them out like he has today or if you know, obviously when we're in COVID We couldn't you know, he just made sure he just keep him sort of occupied. Yeah, look either ways. Fine. Like I know, I did have a gig in May. And so that was, you know, that was fine too. He's happy to stay home and look after them. He's really good. But yeah. As long as I just said right, this is what I communicate with him and say this is what's happening. This is my cut off. This is what I need to do. This is sort of roughly how much time we just kind of you no work he just helped with working around that with me. That's so good. That's so important, yeah. So obviously, you've you've talked a little bit about your life before you had children. Your music was a really big part of your life. It was you've studied your work as a music teacher delve into a little bit more about was it always your dream to do music? Sort of how many how many hours we you'd be out of the house doing your gigs? Was it it? Was it like almost a full time sort of commitment to music? Or kids? Yeah, definitely. I mean, with the study, being immersed in it. I even my part time job was at JB Hi Fi so it was a big? Yeah, I would have to say even with my spare time on weekends, I would spend that year rehearsing either for the, for my, you know, the corporate duo, or even with my friend as well. So or, you know, or weekday, because when I had time during the week when I was at uni, so yeah, it was pretty much like night and day it was yeah, all about all about music beforehand. I didn't really take music sort of seriously up until very late high school. So until I was in VCE. And it was like yeah, this is what I want to do halfway through year 11. Though I did pick up my guitar and start learning from the age of 15. But then voice came later. Yeah. Yeah. But before that I wanted to become an actress. Yeah, right. Either and all that. And I got really crappy crappy marks. And I was just absolutely shattered. I'm certain that that I can't. I'm not made for this, obviously. So enter music now that was yeah, that became my passion. Yeah, yeah. So when you were pregnant with your first child, did you sort of find performing wise was a bit more challenging obviously, as your body was changing. I know I had a lot of issues with breathing, I struggled with struggle to work out how to breathe properly, my diaphragm while I had a baby sitting on sort of find that sort of stuff, or how do you go with it, I stopped Well, before I got pregnant, because once I started teaching full time, I just thought I'll do teaching. And that can kind of be sort of, you know, something that I do while I, I, you know, try and do my music on the side. But once I started full time, forget it. Like it just really took over my life. And so about a year and a half after teaching was when I felt pregnant. And I remember when my firstborn was six months old, I was taking in that. And the guy, this guy, Chris, that we used to do the duo with him, he called me and I was in the middle of having my nap while my son was having it. And I was just completely bombed out. And he's like, Oh, hey, guy wanted to see what I was up to. And I'm just like, Oh, I've just I've had it. I'm just like, Oh, I'm so tired. I just, you know, it was just like, there was just no thought in my mind at any time soon to get back into any sort of like singing or, you know, in music, you know? Just wasn't on the radar. Not on the radar. No, hit me like a ton of bricks having the first one. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a lot of support around you at that time? Do you have your family in in Melbourne with you or I had my mum is as well as my hobby. My mum is so super supportive, like even now. I see her every week. And even now that I'm full time work, and she's retired, she'll come, you know, one day a week and to kind of give me a hand around the house, let's say, yeah, really, really good. And yeah, she's also supportive of what I'm doing as well. So yeah, even with that support, I was just like, yeah, just exhausted. But yeah, no, it wasn't till a couple of years later that I Yeah, there was there was reasons why. I wasn't I wasn't 100% Well, I wasn't sure what was going on. Because I know I'd go to mothers groups, and, you know, the mums, you know, we all say we're tired and all that sort of stuff. But the mum still had like energy to go out for coffees and things and I just be like, Nah, I just don't have that energy. And I thought there's something a bit not right, you know, like, why am I just so exhausted at all I can be bothered to do is just take care of my kid and just not have that energy to do anything else. You know, muster the energy to go to, to mother's grief, and even that was like, a chore for me too. And so I remember going to the doctor's because I'd get quite sick quite often, and it would take a really long time to shake off at cold. He said, we'll do a bit of a test for you. Like, you know, like, I'll ask you some questions and I didn't know what he was wearing. He's getting at but he was asking me some questions and and he kind of gave me a little number out of a number. I don't know if it was at a 10 or whatever. And he said, oh look, you kind of like borderline you've got anxiety and a bit of postnatal depression, but it's not. It's not extreme, but it's you know, it's there. And sometimes that can have an impact, you know, on your well being and also your, your immune system and so, okay, so I got like, one of those those six packs, we get like the six free canceling sessions. Yeah, yep. Yeah. So I went to those and, and look, it was good. It was good to talk to someone and but I was still very tired. And then with more tests, and I don't know, there was something I read in a book. And it was cat it was about Candida and Candida albicans which is when you have Have an overgrowth of the bad bacteria in the stomach versus your good bacteria? Yeah, that can just throw everything out of whack your immune system and you're constantly tired, because I remember I would find it really difficult to, you know, to sleep as well. And it was kind of linked all the way back to also when I realized now when I had Max, my first that I was, I had an intravenous antibiotic when just before I had him and I think that that massive amount of antibiotics that was pumped into me, just completely ruined my gut bacteria. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. So I was just like in this, like, like, my head was in the clouds for like two years until I finally realized what it was because I saw so many doctors that when I went to a nap, I went to a naturopath, this time that specialized in it. Like, right, yep. did another test to confirm it. I think it was a saliva test. And that confirmed that I had really high levels of the Candida and he's like, right got me on a Candida diet, which was cutting out all sugar or dairy or weight. It was nuts. It was first month, I was even more exhausted. And I was like, what's going on? I should be feeling better. And I said know what it is. It's all the Candida that's dying off. And it's actually pouring out all the toxins in your body. It's releasing it, but your body's not obviously not getting rid of it fast enough. So yeah, this is one thing after the other. But my God probably took me about a good year. I've kind of feel like I was normal again. Yeah, right. Yeah. So there was just like, I was just in survival mode. Yes, literally living living day to day just was to do Yeah, it was a really crap. And it was like, I was back at work just two days a week because that's all I could do. And even the days I was at work, I was just in a in like, like a daydream. I don't know, I don't even know I just functioned it's and I think because of that. I've put a lot of pressure on my adrenal glands as well. So everything was just all over the place. So I think that's why I had such a big gap because my after getting over that I just My aim was if I was going to have another child, I'm going to be the healthiest that I can be so that when I do have another child, I'm not going to have to go through all that again. So after you had Jackson then how was your health then? Ah, heaps heaps better. Um, I had lost because I put on 20 kilos my first so I've lost all of that. I'd actually stayed off the wheat and the dairy and the sugar because I found when I went back on it again, I got the Candida but I knew the signs and then I was like, right, go back onto the Candida diet again. So now I don't leading up to the pregnancy and even now I don't have wheat. I don't very it's I cut back. Like I don't have sugar. It's very rare. And dairy I still have a bit of that on my health was so so good. energy levels were a lot better. Weight was a lot was better. I'd still do put weight on and just the way my body is when I'm pregnant. And I had a natural birth. I didn't have any I was like no, no, no, they wanted to pump antibiotics into me again or like not not having it. Especially after what I went through last time so yeah, it was heaps heaps better. Yeah, that's wonderful. Yeah. Stuck between your two boys after you did start to feel better after that sort of year afterwards. Did you? Did you look back into your music? I did, actually. But it took a complete sideward turn in that when Max was about three. So when I started feeling better, I was taking him to mini maestro's. I don't know if you've you've probably have many monasteries in South Australia In Australia wide. Yeah, I have heard of it. Yeah. So it's like a little preschool music program. and fill up for toddlers. And I was typing into that. And then I was taking him to another, another mothers group that was just run by us. And so all the activities were based on, you know, whatever we sort of come up with. And so I was like, Well, how about you know, like, you know, some some days, I'd bring in my guitar, and we can sing some songs. And then I started going, Well, why don't we make something Arty, something crafty. And then we can use that in the songs and get them moving. And then with that, I kind of come up with this concept called Creative tots, Australia, which is infusing new music, movement, and crafts, and started developing lessons, creating songs on GarageBand. So, you know, using my music background, as well as my educational background, as well. And, you know, made a logo, so had a professional logo made, I had a website made, I've still got the Facebook page up, which is one of the links in my Instagram, on my Instagram, LinkedIn, bio. And, yeah, I've bought instruments and asked and, like, everything that I needed, or my materials and, and stuff to promote myself. And I started going to, to like other play groups and saying, hey, you know, I've got this, this new this program, would you like me to come in and, you know, give it a trial. And, you know, give me some feedback on what you think, went to the local library and did the same thing. And I actually repainted carpet in my garage to make it into a space and I kind of went to audit all the foundational stuff. And I fell pregnant with Jackson. So yeah, I've got puppets on this one hand puppets as well. So like, yeah, I've got all everything's in the garage. Yeah. Everything's still there. But that's something another project that I'm gonna get to. It's sort of like it's waiting. They're just ready for you to pick it up when you're ready. Yeah, when I'm ready, not ready yet. There's a few things I want to do first, before I go back to it, that thing that I want, again, I did professional development as well. So there's another program by they're very well known in Melbourne. They do educational stuff for schools, books and music for pre pre schools and primary schools. I don't know if you'd call it a hood. Susie, and Phil Davis split up. Music is their program. So yeah, so I did a couple of professional development courses with them. So I put a lot into it in that sort of, yeah, three to two to three years. But before Yeah, I fell pregnant with Jackson. Like I was even about to do another course with them. When I was probably about booked in seven months, and got to seven months, it was in January, which is really warm up and I was like, Nah, I can't do it too much. So yeah, so yeah, definitely back in the music, but more in a different different way. Yeah. Fine doing that. That you you met your own need, you know, being involved in music. Did you sort of feel like you might have been helping the mums to like, did you see it as but you were also giving something back? To your community, I suppose. And helping mums? Yeah, yeah, I did. Actually, I actually. What else did I do? I was also ending the classes with meditation because I was in into the meditation at the time to incorporated that. And yeah, one of the mums in did mention that. She's like, I've never seen my child so relaxed, like that. Good way to kind of, you know, because you've raised them up was a good way to kind of settle them down and bring them down the end of the lesson. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And I guess you're giving some of these kids might not have had any sort of exposure to music and instruments and that kind of stuff before so yes, that's fantastic, too. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. We talked a bit about support early you've got your husband and your mom within your own sort of work circle at the moment or your your colleagues your music, sort of circle. Do you have any others around you that share this sort of motherhood slash music experience, or do you find It's not really that anyone, I feel very isolated actually. Yeah, that I'm in my faculty is very small. So I've only got one other colleague who teaches music and she has no children. Look, actually, my instrumental teachers are actually no, I've got two that that have got children. I don't know, of one of them, my vocal coach, she, she's got, she's got one son, a young son, I haven't actually, you know, sat down and spoken with her. So this might be a really good thing to kind of open up with them. They, you know, how they, how they cope with their creativity, and yeah, balancing that with with kids. But otherwise, you know, like, I've got the downhill performance coaching that I've been part of, since October, August, sorry, August of last year. And I'm actually the oldest, it's sort of me. And then 25 is the next eldest, and then it's like, 19, and all the way down to eight. So even the teachers, they none of them have got kids. So I feel very isolated, even within that, that sort of performance coaching family that I'm part of as well. Yeah, it's interesting isn't like, you can be a part of something and share something so strong, but then that with them lacking that experience of of being a parent, because it can create quite a separation, I guess, at different types. Have you found sort of any times where, and even through your work that people just don't get it? When you're a mom and you need, you might need to change something or do something because your kids need you? Like, people don't understand they sort of, because they don't, they don't have children? They don't get it. They're like, Oh, really? Like, have you found that happen at all? No, not really, actually. I think most people are pretty good. And if if they haven't got children, they've got you know, close family members that have got young children, and they're quite understanding of seeing how they travel, you know, and how hard it is for them. Look, it's completely different when you've got your own like, you can't compare but you know, I think most of being pretty good. Let's take six and I am not your SWANA. So we've raised the topic, this concept of mum guilt that that phrase that society is created for us. How do you feel about that? The mum guilt and Yeah, funny that because I was at a podcast, a live podcast on Thursday night. It was filmed. I don't know if you've heard of the Melbourne housewives? Sure. Have you heard of Jackie Gillies? Yeah, I actually I saw your your Instagram post and I was jealous. I was hurt because Julia Maurice was on there was interviewed a Jackie Gillies was interviewing Julia Morris and Julia Morris, who is, you know, in the show beers, and she's got two kids of her own. And Jackie was interviewing her and asking her about, you know, how do you find the balance? And she's like, hard work hard works work times work. So there's no bloody difference. And she's like, do you get guilty you know, being off working, especially with the gig she's got at the moment with I'm A Celebrity Get celebrity out of here because she she goes overseas for that down South Africa. And she said, You know what I used to she goes, I just think guilt is bullshit. And you shouldn't have to put that on yourself. And it's taken me until I'm 53 to kind of realize that so it was like for me, it was really good to hear someone else it's almost like it validates your own feelings when you hear somebody else say it. Yeah, so you know what? It goes I used to come home and go Oh, give me you know, lots of cuddles a year worth of colors that I missed. And she said I don't do that anymore. I just come in and slip into the way like as if I hadn't been away for such a long time, you know, not make such a big deal out of it. So it was really good to hear that because hoes, I do. I do feel guilty, especially, you know, when I'm out. I'm out on a Monday night. I've gotten another lesson on a Tuesday. Or, you know, if I'm doing some recording here for my, for my music, and that's like time thinking that's time precious time I could be with my kids. So I do feel guilty about that, you know? Does that come from yourself? Or do you feel judgment from society or others? Yeah, I definitely think it's from myself because I'm someone who's very have a lot of high expectations. So I kind of feel like, you know, I knit with the time that I've got, especially now I'm working full time. I need to be spending more time with my children now while they're young. Making sure I have that connection. But my husband always you know, he's really good. He'll go to work. They love you. You know, they really love you. Remember when you weren't feeling well, and they were all worried about you? You know, they really love you don't worry. So my husband tries to sort of, you know, say no, don't worry. Don't stress ratio. Are you here ratio? Me? Yeah. Do you did kids have that? Do they get into music? Like they know that you're doing music do that? Are they interested in like, do they come to gigs or anything like that? No. Look, I'd love to one day when I suppose I don't look I've asked Max and if he wanted to come to come to them and he's like, nice he's not really too interested. Like that's my eldest because he's you know, to kind of sit still and not you know, muck around and run around the room. Oh, my youngest would come in in a heartbeat. I think there's one thing that does make me guilty more so with my youngest is that he every time I'm out, he'll say I miss you mom. I miss you. I missed you all the time. It's nice a stabs I feel like I have to you know cuz I'm just like, oh, no, you poor little thing. Oh, dear. They're lovely. Identity, obviously when when you're not a mum, you can be anything you want. And then you become a mother and and do you have this? Is a this concept of being more than I don't want to say just a mum because that's not true that we are so much more than just a mum. But do you feel like it's important to you to maintain your own identity outside of being a mum, so maintain? You're a singer, you're a wife, your teacher or that kind of thing? Is that something that's important? Yeah, I'm actually really good at compartmentalizing different parts of my life. Like, you know, when I'm a mum, and a mom and sometimes even like that, I could be doing things with the boys and I'm guilty of you know, being on social media, which is really bad. And but yeah, I'm pretty good. Like when I'm at school, I'm teaching mode when I'm at home. You know, Mum, wife mode, and when I'm doing my music staff, it's yeah, it's I'm musician Alyssia. You know, the less the less so I'm pretty good at compartmentalizing? Is that why you chose to have a stage name to separate the two worlds for yourself? Yeah, yeah. Just to separate the mum, I'd know the me to yeah, having something separate, to identify as, yeah. Do you think? Do you kids sort of are they aware of what you're creating? Like they they see that, that you're making music that you know, and do you want them to, to know that to sort of show them that mums can still do things, I guess? Yeah, that's a good question. No, they definitely know for sure. And they know it's a big part of my life. Like even yesterday. I was part of the Dan Hamill performance photo shoot for their for their marketing. They do every sort of three to six months and We were out in the city and I got them to come with me, so that they could see where I'm coming everywhere I go every week. Yep. And my eldest is like, ah, kind of on the way out in the city every week, because he Yeah, I do. So it's, it's good for them to see that good for them to see. I think it's a really good lesson for them to save you, you know, that you've got to put the hard work in to you know, to get to set your rewards. That nothing comes easy. And you do what you have to do. To get, you know, what it is that you want. I think that's like really important. Like, you can be, you know, get the best grades. But really, I think when it comes down to it, it's got to do with hard work and dedication. So I hope that they they see that they see that and then one day, that kind of brushes off on them. Yeah. Yeah, but ya know, they definitely, they definitely do know what I'm doing and, you know, keep them in the loop. I don't know how much they really sort of care. But I know I've the funniest thing I'll tell you there was one of my showcases, when we're in lockdown last year, I obviously had to film it online. And I'm all done up with you know, red lipstick because I was and massive eyelashes and dressed up. And I walked out from the bathroom to my study. And past all the boys and Mexico's my eldest, Pam, you look ridiculous. And then my youngest goes for Mum, you look really beautiful mum looks like creatchi just funny the dynamics. See what I do to you know, to put on you know, dressing up or part of it to put on a you know, a show or performance. That's gorgeous. My little one he often say that and say Ma'am, you look beautiful, and just sort of put my dressing gown on and I feel like rubbish. But he's there to pump me up. He's a good little fella. Yeah. Is there anything else that you wanted to share any sort of any further sort of thoughts on any issues that we might not have? chatted about so far. I just I don't know, I suppose it's just the creating that balance. Because for me, it's always a massive, massive struggle, especially now that I'm working full time to find that balance. I'm really, really good at multitasking, but it's forever keeping. I feel like I'm always floating above water and be a bit lovely to know what others are doing. But just floating above water, to find that balance of time for myself for my music, for work, my work demands that I have demands as a mom. And I think the one thing I've learnt is that if you can have at least one or two people like I do that are really supportive and willing to help out like that's everything, you know, like I wouldn't really be able to do all this without the small support network that I've got, which is my mom and my husband. And any for anyone listening like it doesn't have to be a partner or a mountain, it could be an auntie or could be a really good friend or, you know, as long as you've got someone that you can be there to kind of take a bit of a load off or to help out so that you've got that time. Like even last year, in lockdown what kept me sane and sort of helped with time was we had a living or pair. We had someone who lived I mean, we had less space in the house. But I had an extra hand. So that helped as well. So it could be anything really Yeah, find find what works, what works for you get that balance to find that time to do everything is being pulled in all these different directions and you've got a sort of like you said before, I think that idea of sort of putting things into little compartments and trying to keep things separate. That's that's a really good idea. Yeah. So what do you have coming up in the future Alicea in the future because I have never formally released anything. That's a plan that I've got Within the next sort of six to 868 months so working with my current vocal coach she's got a plan put in place some goals over the next six months so one is well, you know writing up the setlist bio. Also going to record some new music, which I did mention earlier and use that pack that I that I got from the stage door comm to on that and get the video to go with, with the song that I can release and some, some a couple of professional photos that I can use for the release. And do a she wants me to do a launch show as well. So if not at the end of the year, maybe early next year. That's very exciting. Yeah. So you can find this year's original music on SoundCloud and YouTube and follow her on Instagram and all the links will be in the episode description. Thank you so much for being on today. Lisa, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much, Alison. It's been a pleasure. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic

Fleur Harris Australian illustrator +designer S2 Ep63 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts Fleur Harris is a painter, illustrator, product designer, collaborator and mother of her son living in Melbourne Australia. Her detailed illustration can be described as whimsical and wonderous, and Fleur aims to bring joy and happiness to others through her artwork. Fleur was always a drawer throughout school, winning awards and gaining the admiration of her peers. After studying Fine Arts, Illustration and Interior Design in Australia and Italy, Fleur has forged a career as a prolific artist and creative collaborator for over 20 years. After working in design houses for many years, Fleur began working for herself 6 years ago and now designs full time, although she doesn't see it as a job. Fleur has collaborated with brands such as TuTu de Monde and 12 collections with Adairs Kids since 2013. Fleur is a truly passionate creative soul. She values quality over quantity and attention to detail. Fleur believes strongly in animal welfare, social justice and kindness. These beliefs guide much of her design work, decision making and her drive to do her part to make the world a better place. Fleur also donates portions of her work, time and profits to charities that align with her values, most recently The Great Barrier Reef Foundation. through the Better Worlds Projects Through her imaginative designs, detailed illustrations and design sensibility, she has built an artistic world brimming with wonder, whimsy, inspirational creativity and happiness. Fleur's world is a place where imaginations run free and anything is possible Fleur is excited to launch her own label, " Fleur Harris " clothing range coming later this year and has many exciting projects coming up including collaborations with namely co, and Adairs Kids. Connect with Fleur website / instagram / linktree Podcast - instagram / website The Divided Heart - Motherhood and Creativity Rachel Power on the podcast Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is such a pleasure to welcome you. My guest today is FLIR Harris. Fleur is a painter, Illustrator, product designer, collaborator, and mother living in Melbourne, Australia. Her detailed illustration can be described as whimsical and wonderous and flow aims to bring joy and happiness to others through her artwork. Flow was always a draw throughout school, winning awards and gaining the admiration of her peers. After studying Fine Arts, illustration and interior design in Australia and Italy, Fleur has forged a career as a prolific artist and creative collaborator for over 20 years. After working in design houses for many years player began working for herself six years ago, and now designs full time. Although she doesn't see it as a job. Flo has collaborated with brands such as to to demand and it's released 12 collections with a dares kids since 2013. Flair is a truly passionate creative soul. She values quality over quantity and attention to detail. Flair believes strongly in animal welfare, social justice and kindness. These beliefs guide much of her design work, decision making and her drive to do her part to make the world a better place. Fleur also donates portions of her work time and profits to charities that align with her values. Most recently the Great Barrier Reef foundation through the better worlds projects. Through her imaginative designs detailed illustrations and design sensibility flow has built an artistic world brimming with wonder, whimsy, inspirational creativity, and happiness. Flers world is a place where imaginations run free, and anything is possible. Flair is excited to launch her own label clothing range coming later this year. And Fleur has many exciting projects coming up, including collaborations with namely code and today's kids. I really hope you enjoy today's podcast the music you'll hear is from my ambient music trio, LM J, which features myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband John. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Flo. It's an absolute pleasure to meet you. The pleasure is mine. Allison, thank you for having me. And thank you for hosting what I think is a really beautiful podcast. Oh, thank you. That's lovely if you decide so you're in Melbourne, is that right? That's right. Yes. Just out of the city. I live here with my husband and our little boy bales who's six years old. Six, that's a great age. I've got a six year old it's it is good fun. It's beautiful. I feel like we've hit our stride as a as a good little team. It's been lovely. So yeah, your weather today you'd be a bit overcast and rainy out there. Yeah, a bit overcast. we've still been out in the garden late this morning. That hasn't stopped us and a bit chilly. But I quite liked the Melbourne winters it's a nice still day and it's beautiful. Yeah. Might we live in Mount Gambier? So we're sort of halfway between Adelaide and Melbourne. So whatever whatever weather you guys get, we've sort of had it first and my pop used to live in our tiny house over there. And you know, the the beachside suburb and when he moved he moved over here and he said it was the weather was worse here it was colder he met Gambia and we used to think it would be worse in Melbourne like near the beach he'd be cold and windy and he said not met Gambia is hard for three really. I was surprised by that. But now China's our time is a good part of the world. We duck over there sometimes to go to the beach. Oh yeah. I love this. The Ice Cream Shop and fish and chip shop down there. Like neither force or Yeah, it's beautiful over there and Williams town. I love that part of the world. Yeah. Beautiful place yet. All right, so let's talk about your creativity and your beautiful artwork. Can you describe your art form, what you create and sort of what sort of mediums you use? Yeah, sure. Well, my personal work is quite diverse. So I do everything from oil painting to more craft style projects. I quite enjoy just, you know, sketching in my sketchbook when I used to have a sewing machine until it broke, I used to sew a lot, so little toys and clothes. And I've just always been a sort of a maker, I guess you would say, creative person that just likes to make things. But over the years, I've really honed in on my illustration, and a particular style of illustration, especially that's quite detailed and whimsical. And I've been fortunate that that has resonated with quite a wide audience. And it's meant that I've been able to focus on that full time. And I've been doing that for six years now. Working for myself out of my home studio, and I absolutely love it the best job in the entire world. And I had many years prior to that of working in house as an artist for different brands. I didn't textile design for different clothing companies used to work on swimwear and sleep wear and all sorts of products. And then I definitely did my time when I was at uni, you know, working in retail and that kind of thing. But my for the last 15 years, it's always been a creative role that I've worked in, and then work for myself here for the last six years. I've always freelanced as I've been working in other jobs too. I've just found that a really helpful creative outlet. While I've had a full time job, to be able to be working on other projects that are a bit different on the side, I always found really helpful. So, so yeah, that's great. So I have a studio set up at home. Here, which is where I am now I took over the I think this was actually the piano room when we when we moved into this house, I had a beautiful old blue piano in here. Oh. And it was sitting in front of this big stained stained glass, Windows or lead light Windows or other. And when I walked in here, and so there's be high ceilings and the windows and this piano, I just thought this is the space for me. And I that was when we're inspecting the house and I called my husband I said, I'm just just letting you know, I'm gonna put an offer in. And it was, it was pretty much because of this room. Nevermind the rest of the house. And it's actually turned out to be fantastic because we have beautiful neighbors and it's really changed our lives for the better. So I think that this space kind of definitely led us in the right direction to just to a better, more fulfilling life all around. And it's certainly been brilliant for my creative practice. So I've got everything in here. I've got drawers full of paints, and I've got drawers full of papers, and there's just it's a minefield of art materials. I love it. And my little boy my little boy loves it too. That's pretty cool. Yeah, I can see behind you've got a clothing rack with some beautiful, really beautiful colored dresses. And I can see like, what's that? Nice sort of, is it true? Yeah. Can you tell us? Yeah. Last year I did a collaboration with a beautiful brand from Sydney called to to demand and we collaborated to create a 40 piece. Children's luxury apparel and accessories collection. Oh wow. And what they do is really special. Their attention to detail is is pretty explicit and working with them. was a lot of fun and the garments that we created a very covetable, so I couldn't not pack them away. They have to be on display in here. It's like having things in a frame, isn't it? It's like it has to be out there and yeah. And everyone like everyone that comes in loves to poke around in my studio. And that's, that's definitely a section that gets a lot of attention. Oh, that's lovely. Yeah, I love the colors. It's like, sort of purples and pinks. And yeah, it's beautiful. And there's lots of beautiful beadwork. And yeah, yeah, yeah, it's pretty, pretty beautiful stuff that they make. So that was a that was a collaboration that I, you know, I really cherished and Yeah, lovely one to do. And they were actually, every now and then I'd go through a phase where I'd say, I'd say, Okay, I need to sit down, think about what do I want to do next. And I'd written up a bit of a list of my dream brands, and they were my dream brand to work with. So when that collaboration came to life, that was really special. Oh, that's awesome. It's almost like you manifested that, like he put it out there. And I'd say a combination of manifest and dog and hard work. Yes, you actually have to do something to make things happen. I'd love to hear you describe there that when you've you've got work that you're doing for a company or a client, that you've also got your own work that you do, it's like, you've got to have that balance of things that are meeting your own needs, as a creative, sort of whatever, whatever that may be. Is that something you've always sort of done been really mindful of, of keeping your own needs met in that way? I guess. Yeah, I, I would say that, it's something that never leaves me this desire to be creating something. And, you know, we might go on a family holiday, and I'll say, I'll leave my sketchbook at home, I'll just have a break from from it. And you know, I won't do any of that, I'll just have a rest. And then in a couple of hours of being wherever we're going, I'll be like, I'm just gonna go to the newsagent. And see if I can find that sketchbook. I learned I'm, you know, and then I get it out of my sister, and we can get on with our holiday, but it's something that it's, it's all it's always there for me this desire to make something and it's not so much for me about the end goal, necessarily, it's actually just the process that I really enjoy, I think, you know, it's just as satisfying for me to create marks on paper that might not sort of come to be anything that looks particularly nice. I enjoy that process itself as much as when I do create something that actually does turn out nicely, you know, and, and either way I see its value. Whether it's just, you know, exploring some mediums, and as you know, sometimes I'll start a painting and five minutes, and I'll just get this feeling like, Oh, this isn't working. And the process is just not feeling right. And so I just grab it out and walk away and, you know, leave it and I actually went through a phase would have been about 15 years ago, where I didn't paint for about two years, and just kind of didn't need to I didn't have the desire, I was doing other things. I was selling little toys and I was you know, my creativity was coming out elsewhere. And then when I finally one day, I just got this, like tsunami internally that was like, You need to go and paint and I sort of went on this Bender I remember having canvases all over the floor and it was almost the word furious might be a bit dramatic, but it was a flurry of, of paint brushes and paint, it was like it was like it had been sitting there dormant. And then one day just the lid came off. And I made a whole lot of art, this sort of series of artworks that were kind of unusual for me, but a lot of them are still hanging, my mom is always first to put her hand up for an artwork that's going that needs a home. So her house over love, and it's and she lives into state. And so when I got there, I forgot about that. Painting and you know, actually brings back a lot of memories of that time and kind of reminds me about, you know, the importance of just giving time to process and to making and not being fixated on the outcome. Because I know that if I was worried about the painting, because you know, and you make better sometimes that's all right. Yeah, I'm fine with that quite happy to make a bad artwork, it's just about getting the paint or the or the pencil or whatever it is done on paper, letting it come out of my head and out my arm. And then it's, it's out. Yeah, do you think being able to continue doing that gives you then when you sit down to design something for you know, ideas, or a collection of someone you're working with, that allows the ideas to flow freely, because you're not uninhibited by your creativity comes out. Yeah, and in a way I does, I've got a lot of a lot of it out of my system. And so when it does come down to sitting down and creating a really detailed out, you know, that can take months to make, it definitely makes me I think it gives an ease to, to other things that I'm working on. Because I have those other needs, if you like out of my system, you know, there have, I've looked after them. The great thing is, though, that I enjoy the process of making those really detailed artworks too. So it doesn't feel ever like, you know, I, I've got that fun part out the way now I have to do this to me. It's, it's no, I mean, it's it's definitely time consuming and requires, you know, a huge amount of focus. But I love that like to sit there I can sit for hours and hours and hours and draw. I remember there was a day in my studio, where I think I'd sit there for about seven hours. And after a while I thought oh my gosh, I haven't kind of like a woke up. I haven't been to the toilet, I thought it had been about seven hours. And I'd really just, you know, I can get lost in that process. And so to have you know, to be able to play with all the different mediums and and explore that in parallel with my illustration work. Cuz I think the best way for me to work as an artist, it keeps my skills keeps my skills up. I feel like I maintain my skills that way and it also keeps me How would I describe it? It keeps things fresh. I never get tired of of the work I'm doing. Yeah, because I have that variety. Yeah, absolutely. And when it is your full time job, even though I don't really see it as a job but when it is what I do full time. I think it is important to to keep that variety there so that it doesn't become too monotonous because I would I don't know what I'd do if the day came where I didn't enjoy doing this anymore. I can't see that come in because it's I think it's just part of who I am. But you know, cross that bridge when we come to it. I think I haven't got a I haven't got a plan B. I'll be I think it'd be a landscape gardener. I'd be quite heavily heavily, quite happy doing garden maintenance. Just being like a person that comes around and pulls weeds out of the garden would be very happy doing that. Your process that you use, you talked about your illustration, do you sort of do you draw it out on your paper first and then you create it on a, like an iPad or a computer program. Sometimes I will have a little sketch in a sketchbook or it's usually on a bit of like, a grab a bit of paper out of the printer. And I'll just sort of sketch out some stuff. And it's really rough at that point, usually, and then I just start working digitally straightaway, because for me, a lot of my artworks end up being used to create products. So whether it's wallpaper or fabrics for bedding, or apparel, they do need to be able to be worked with by whoever's producing that product. And so the the format that they need to be supplied in for those people is digital. So I just find that it's much more straightforward to just start the artwork digitally. But the concept itself will usually I usually feel it out very roughly on paper so rough, like nearly unrecognizable work, you look at it, and you think that person actually can't draw. It's just very, you know, to me, it makes sense in my head, what I'm scribbling down. Yeah, I can send I can show you if you like like a before and after. I'd love to actually, yeah, that'd be brilliant. Yeah, so yeah, so I'm really, I love your, your style of the things that you put in your artworks and do birds and, like, there's a cute little one of a little bunny with like little butterfly wings, which is suede. Sort of like you say that whimsical. Little. It's just, it's so what the word is, it's relaxing, I don't know if that's the right word, but it's very comforting. Like, it's sort of, that's beautiful. It doesn't, it doesn't challenge you and makes you feel really nice and warm. Oh, that's beautiful feedback. Allison, thank you, I love it. Because sometimes you just want something that just makes you feel good, don't you like, I know, sometimes, like I go to art galleries and look at things and get quiet, you know, things are quite profound and quite in your face, and you get like that challenging feeling. And sometimes it's just really nice to look at something that makes you feel good and makes you smile. Yeah, and it's incredibly powerful. Art is an incredibly powerful vehicle for sharing of opinions and, and can be a great vehicle for making change and, and bringing issues to the forefront of you know, people's minds. And I think that that is one of the most fantastic things about it. For me, what I choose to use my or like to use my artwork for is actually to bring joy and happiness. And that's my the way I see my contribution has been the most. That's what I want to be able to contribute with my art, certainly at this point in time. Maybe that will, you know, maybe later down the track, I might start to use it for for other purposes. But for now I'm really in this beautiful world of fairytales and whimsy and joy and happiness and the connections that I've made with people who relate or relate to that in the artwork. Very, you know, along the lines of what you just spoke about, I can't express what beautiful people it's brought into my life and beautiful conversations, you know, I hear from people with them, telling me what the app has meant to them. And especially during difficult times where it's brought them comfort and hope even. And to me that is just more than I could ever ask for to be able to contribute to people's lives in that way. And I think it's I feel it's a very special thing to be able to do. And so I love to be able to nurture that and particularly to be able to share that with a wide age range of people. So while a lot of my work is the products are geared towards children, I do hear from adults and you know, people in older generations who have been moved or or connected with the artwork in some positive way. And I really and that's globally to you know, hear from people all around the world. And that is Just such that gives me such pause for thought about, you know, okay, what I'm doing is actually really important to people and I feel a deep sense of, you know, I take that seriously. It's a joy. It's a joyful seriousness. It's not lost on you. Not at all. Not at all. And it's at front of mine, when I'm creating artworks is, you know, Will this bring wonder and whimsy and joy to people? And that's almost sort of like the as a called a litmus litmus test. Yeah. Yes. And so yeah, I feel really fortunate to be in this space where there's this beautiful community of people around me that have been drawn in by the artwork and yeah, we all we all share in this sort of very kind and calm, you know, narrative together. It's lovely, if you if you did look through, you know, comments on my social media page on Instagram, people do everyone to my artwork, I just so lovely, you know, they are so forth. kind words and, and I just think I'm very grateful for that. Now, good on you. I think that's lovely. Because I don't know, there's so much crap going on in the world. Like, you know, there's stuff happening overseas and all these big powerful men going out at each other with bombs and thinking, I don't know, it's just lovely to just be in your own little world and feel good about things. And I, I really love there's a, there's a picture that you put up only must have been yesterday of just the image of Two little birds and a butterfly and sitting amongst these lovely flowers and leaves. And I'm really, really drawn to birds. That's just something I don't know. And even when I'm out walking, when I see birds, I think particularly think of particular relatives and people that have passed away. And whenever I see birds, I just go, oh, there's something really comforting. I don't know about birds, I just made me feel really secure and safe. And that's beautiful after. To me they are like little magic folks that are flitting about in the trees. I mean, they can fly. And they sing. I mean, yeah, it's pretty cool. To be a bird, like, even if just for a day. Yeah, that post was was interesting. I had some people message me privately about that some really beautiful messages as well, I think. Because the comment that, you know, I put with it was about had, the purpose of posting the artwork was to offer a moment of calm in what feels like at the moment is particularly, you know, a very busy world with a lot going on. And there's a lot of noise and a lot of it's quite unpleasant. You know, I personally find watching the news, I just mean, quiet despair, sometimes. Some of the stuff that's going on, and I just ponder, you know, as humans, we'll have to see what are we doing? about so many things. And, you know, I, I think that we can all make a difference and that the power of collective effort is important to never underestimate. I think, when I do see that, you know, there's awful things happening in the world, it gives me even more motivation to try to paint the kind of world that I want to live in. And that's a world of kindness and peacefulness and an empathy for each other. And a world of imagination, where we, you know, we have fun and we, yeah, we basically and we be, you know, we, we get carried away with our imaginations and it's so serious, you know, it's like, yeah, it's with butterfly wings, and you can have little creatures going along in boats in the air and, you know, it can just be whatever it needs to be. Yeah. And if that's, you know, to me, that is, I think, Okay, well, those people over there are gonna do that terrible stuff. You know, it's the wars and awful things that are happening, I think, well, I I'm gonna keep flying the flag for kindness and goodness. And you know, well, I don't have the stages of these people doing awful things. I do. I do. I do recognize that. There is a place for for what I'm doing in it and an audience for it because I think people do are drawn to kindness and good things, especially when all that awful stuff was going on. I think it's really lovely to because of where you're where your art appears, you know, it's on things that you can bring into your home. So like you said, it's on the wallpaper, it's on the bedspreads. It's on clothing or cushions, like you can surround yourself with that. So it's not just, you know, an image in a frame, you can actually, you know, make yourself comfortable with with that around you. Okay, that's pretty profound. Absolutely. And for children, especially, I mean, for me to my, my bed is one of my favorite places of getting into bed. Learn it's such a safe space, you know? Well, it is hopefully for most children, and it certainly should be a safe space and a place of comfort and to be able to, you know, help surround them with with beautiful things that will, will be, you know, perhaps the backdrop to their treasured childhood memories is something I don't take for granted at all, I think about when I grew up the doona covers in my life really stuck stick with me. I had a, I had the kintone doing a cover with the big butterflies and, and that, you know, is clear as day in my mind, and then my mom one day went ahead and decked out our room like, head to toe in this Laura Ashley, you know, the curtains and the wolfberries and the picture Owl and the whole shebang? Oh, my gosh, I loved it. And, and that print, you know, it was the same print on everything, the curtains and the dooner and everything. And that, that visual of that, that bedroom is such a big part of my childhood memories. And so to, to think that my artwork may also, you know, form that, you know, become part of special memories for people who will one day be grownups doing wonderful things in the world is, is pretty incredible to sort of try and get my head around. It's massive, isn't it? Good for you, that's just too beautiful attitude to have a lover Good on you? Have you always been able to draw that well? Or did you have to do lots of practice? Or does it just come naturally to you? I'm always practicing. And there's definitely different techniques where I produce better work than with other techniques. And it changes you know, I used to be a really good painter with acrylic paints and now and I use acrylic paints that just feels like I'm almost starting again. I don't use them very much anymore. But it's funny actually, because I was looking for some stuff. And I ended up going through an old file and I found, you know, like awards from primary school. And, you know, there's an award to me that's like the Picasso or the you know, I think it's definitely been something that was always my theme. Like its primary school, you know, like, oh, Fleur, she's the one that can draw. You know? It's it's funny kids. My, my memory in primary school is keeps held drawing on a pedestal like being able to draw is like a really cool thing. Yeah, yeah. Are you such a good drawer? It was always. Yeah, it keeps me sane. I don't know where that sort of falls off a bit. But kids and kids were really into celebrating people who are good at drawing. I was always like, pretty chuffed about. So yeah, it's something I look, I've always enjoyed it. And so I think as a result, I've done it a lot. And so that has meant, you know, yeah, you've refined and honed over the years by by default. I've had this Yeah, yeah. But I'm always practicing. It's the kind of thing where if you if you drop it for a bit you can when you finally get back to it feel a bit rusty. And so it's not like I don't really see it as being like riding a bike where you kind of never lose that skill. I do think it's something that needs to be maintained. So yeah, unfortunately that by working in it all the time, I'm always practicing. Yep, Now that's really cool. That that's something I'm discovering, because I'm not an artist by any means. But I like painting and fiddling around. And it's like, I realized you actually have to practice at it. Like, you can't expect to be good at it like, oh, I mean, there are people like, obviously yourself, you've always been able to draw, but it's like, I want to be able to draw, and I can't say that annoys me. Well, it depends what what sort of level of expectation, I've got pretty high, I've got pretty high levels of expectation where maybe we can have an online zoom during class. Give me a few little Oh, man, that'd be amazing. Because my touring is just rubbish. It's like, I'm sure it's not Oh, no, really? Seriously? No, I think I think anyone can do it. It's not like, like, the gift you have. It's very, you know, you need to feel secure, you can't this kind of black and white. And, you know, straightaway which one it is. Whereas withdrawing, you know, it's, it's a little bit more subjective. And there is a bit more wiggle room for, you know, being expressive and that not having having to look really steep, and all sorts of styles. Great, you know, yeah. Whereas I certainly will never be on the stage with a microphone. And thank goodness, so hopefully, hopefully in the room. You won't be going to karaoke. I actually don't mind karaoke. But even still, I know my limits so turning to your, yourself, you mentioned before that he likes to come into the studio does he does he take on your creativity as well? In little bursts. So he's like me with my painting break for two years, he might have a few weeks where he's just not interested in drawing or anything like that. And then suddenly, it's on you know, he just wants to be with me in here and writing stories and drawing pictures and, and I just facilitate that when he says that he wants that it's never something that I've tried to say, you know, come and sit with me, I'm gonna give you an art lesson or anything like that. I've always made it available to him, you know, if you want to do this, let's do it together. But I certainly have never tried to impress upon him my passions, but I've always made available to him. You know, what I do? In the materials, I have to do it and my passion for it. He knows they're always here, if he wants to, you know, get stuck into it. And when he does it, it's really special. Yeah, I've got up here on on my wall, little drawing I did of him. Well, he's a rabbit in the drawing, but of him as going after his first day of school. And he then came in, he's like, Can you can you do one of those for me, and I'll color it in. So I've got his little version next to it. In his little coloring, and next to my one of him, you know, drawing of him was beautiful little sweet things around my studio that he's drawn. Yeah. And we've got his little gallery in the hallway where we make sure we really celebrate any effort he makes creatively, you know, whether it's it all goes up on the wall, so that, you know, he feels confident in expressing himself in that way. Hmm. And like you said before, about things don't have to be for the end result. You know, I think a lot of times, I've my backgrounds in early childhood education, and I've seen over the years people, you know, almost judge little people's work, because it doesn't look how an adult thinks it should look, you know, which is incredibly damaging for a child. You know, it's about what they've made. And, and that's the end of it. You know, it's sort of about how we judge it through our eyes. Yeah, well, it's very reflective of their developmental process, especially in those early years up to seven years old, where there are sort of known stages that the children go through where they're exploring, you know, their understanding of shape and interpreting symbols and things like that. So I've always just felt it's important to encourage children as long as they're making an effort whatnot, well, let me say that again. I'm always I feel it's important to encourage children and celebrate whatever effort they make. Yeah, that's easy. It's not about judging, judging, it's about, you've done this. And that's fantastic. You know, like, I've got all around my studio, I have pictures the boys have made over the years. And some of it might just be, you know, a swipe of paint on a little piece of paper, but it's the meaning for it behind me, like my sorry, the meaning behind it. For me, it's like, and I get so inspired by that, because they're unencumbered in their creativity they're making because they're making something they're not thinking about what other people are going to think about this. And that's where I get stuck in my head when I attempt to do any sort of painting. So I find that really inspires me having their little pieces around me. Yeah. That they create. Gently without inhibition, that is the goal of as a grown up artist to be able to create that. And so I would never want to do anything that got in the way of that, you know, they hate my son has that now, and most children start with that, and I want to make sure it, I'll do what I can to nurture that. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. To not take that away or not. Not damping out that little light. Yeah, yeah, it's so precious. And I mean, just watching my son draw, I mean, seeing his little hand around the pencils enough, just to, you know, melts my hand. Just so beautiful to watch. And to then, you know, see how pleased he is when we pop something up on the on the wall. It's just, how could I not? See, it is it special for them to realize that what they're doing has meaning and other people appreciate it. And they're important, you know, they're seen, and they're valued. I'm getting, getting goosebumps now saying all that. But you know, it's just, it's so important, you know, that they feel like that they have a voice and, and they value their value. They don't use those words. But, you know, that's how they feel. Absolutely. And I also think that they have admirable imaginations. So the things that they come up with, I could only ever dream of still being able to come up with. And so I just don't mean or of what of their imaginations. And so I also love to just sort of observe what comes rather than my son's mind as he's drawing. You know, there's a new drawing that he's got on the wall, he found a bit of cotton wall, in my studio, and he stuck it to the page and created this character, Mr. kloudio. And Mr. kloudio is a magician and everything in his world is made out of magic wands. So he's got, you know, a chair made out of magic wands, and then his hats made out of magic wands, and I just, I love is the kloudio book character. Yeah, I feel really privileged to be, you know, have someone in my life that you know, has this amazing brain on them and all children have that capacity? And I think I think we are wise to celebrate that. Absolutely. Yes. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom I was naming. So on that, do you find yourself? I guess this can be for either the work that you're doing for clients or your own work? Do you get inspired by that? Sort of, does that give you sort of the feeling to let yourself go to with your creativity? Yes, absolutely. And I will often reflect on my own childhood and what things excited me and caused me to have my imagination run away on itself, and then they're the sorts of things that I then like to include in my artwork. So that inspiration of imaginative thinking is is what I like to try and encourage through my work in hence why I love you know, creating characters like the bunny has the butterfly wings. To me, that is just odd. I would have loved as a kid to find something like that in my garden, like, you know, and I. And as a kid, I thought that that was really possible, you know, and so, and the thought of things, berries was absolutely possible. And that just filled my days with hope, you know, peering through bushes and hoping to see that little twinkle that would, would be a fairy and like, the excitement and anticipation that that gave me it was just so delightful. And so I think about those feelings when I create my artwork and and what type of themes will inspire that same sort of delight? Yeah. Did you find that after you had your son, that things sort of changed, like, was that more intense, or the things that inspired you change slightly, when you became a mum, I would say that the whole reason that I'm doing what I'm doing is because because of my son, so when, when I found out that I was pregnant, I was working for a company, and I was about seven weeks pregnant. And I thought I've ever I'm going to go out on my own, I feel like this is the time because I'm going to, if I go on Matt leave, I'd be trying to start working for myself while having a newborn baby. And I couldn't see how that was going to work. So I thought, I'm probably best to use this time, while I'm pregnant, to start. Start working on, you know, being an artist that works for myself. And so I quit my job, and I just started came home. And I had a few weeks of like, Oh, dear, what have I done? I just threw away my mat leave, and I have no job. And I'm pregnant, right? I really got got myself in a situation here. And I think actually, that the the potential disaster situation I had put my self in, actually inspired me to really give it a good go. And so I guess I laid a lot of groundwork in that time while I was pregnant, so that once my baby was born, I would have a business started that I could nurture on my own terms, as I was, you know, learning how to be a mum. Rather than worry about, you know, for me, I didn't want to have to worry about how am I going to get back to work, you know, part time and the logistics of all that sort of stuff. I thought, not knowing myself. And what was going to work for me, if I was to be the best mom, I could be I thought working for myself was going to be the best option. And so, because, you know, I had a couple of weeks where I was making jams and doing some domestic things. And then I thought, okay, got that out of the way. Now I need to, I'm going to sit down and I'm just going to make some art that is really true to me. I've spent all these years working for different companies making the art they want me to make. And I just created with that reckless abandon If you lie, and reflected deeply on my own childhood, and that inspired the woodlands artwork. And so that was the first sort of big artwork I created in that time after I'd quit my job and, and I was pregnant, and I didn't know what was going to become of that artwork. Yeah. That particular artwork opened a lot of doors for me and has become very popular and he's had a timelessness about it that has meant, you know, it's enduring and is still loved by people all around the world. You know, we released it as a bedding collection with the dares. Four years ago, we're in our fifth year of working together now and they still sell that same original bedding collection because people really love it. And that has just been such an incredible experience to to see what happens when you do really just create in a way that's really true to yourself, to then see, to get that sort of response really form really gave me a lot of confidence in I guess, you know, believing in myself and believing in my abilities and brought home for me the importance of being true to yourself and not just in a creative way. And so that has, has really, you know, that then opened up this world of artworks that I've gone on to create sense ideas and I've done 12 collections together now. And there's lots of really exciting stuff in the pipeline, I just joined up with a fantastic brand agency last November, and they've, they've got me very busy. Which is good. Just getting my head around this new world of, you know, being pulled in lots of directions. And while also you know, needing to have being a mom as a priority, it's it's kind of new territory, territory for me being sort of this busy and being a mom. I am really fortunate though, that I have the most incredible husband, who is so supportive of me and my work and his best dad and he really keeps this ship afloat. It will be remiss of me not to acknowledge him and and that's not without huge effort on his behalf. He works full time too. He's got a job that keeps him really busy as well. But I think we make it really good team and between us we you know, we manage manage life, just the three of us because we don't have our parents around giving us a hand. Unfortunately, my my dad passed away 15 years ago, and my mom was interstate and my husband's parents are down on the Mornington peninsular, often traveling so it really is just us. But we yeah, we might work and much, much of that is due to his title. He's just a legend. I can't speak more highly. I'm really, yeah, he's great. I owe a lot of, you know, being able to do what I do to, to him and also to my son because they, you know, when I do need space and time to get work done, they're really incredible about it. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. And it's important, isn't it that, you know, you're valued. For what you do as a person, you know, I find a lot of stuff we talk about on this show is, you know, you're often seen as the mum that just does stuff for your family. So it's, it's brilliant, that, you know, obviously, you're more than that. And this, they can see that and they're helping you nurture that side of you too, which is really awesome. I think I agree. And I think I think my husband knows though that if I if I couldn't make my art, I probably wouldn't be a very happy person and then probably not as good a month. So I think he understands me, he understands me and understands that you know, this is actually a side of me and my personality and my soul that actually needs to be looked after and given time. And you know, he has things in his life that he you know, does as well that keep him balanced like particularly with exercise and things like that that he's really into and because he does understand that about me that's even more meaningful to me actually that he does really get that I've had to explain it to him but you know and they really got it he gets the it's cool so there's a couple of topics that I like to delve into on each of my episodes. Mum guilt and about identity. So with mum guilt. I know everybody either experiences or doesn't experiences or has their opinions about it and their thoughts. What's your take on molecule So I have a confession to make on mum guilt. And that is that I have heard of the word but I'm not, it's not a word that's really in my vernacular, or my, you know, my friends don't use it. And so I'm wasn't really confident in its true meaning. So I had to google it before I came on here, because I thought I'd need to get worded up just on what it is where to look, to be honest, I, I've never really felt particularly guilty about anything that I have or haven't done as a mom, because the one thing I am sure of is, I always try my best to do my best. And I'm certainly not a perfect mom, but my intentions are always for the best outcome for my son. And I do think that parenting is a learning process, you know, I didn't I never read any books or blogs or anything on parenting, I just kind of intentionally stayed away from a lot of that, I just sort of wanted to feel it out for myself, unfortunately, I've got a beautiful sister who she'd had her first child, six months before me. And then my brother had also had his first child, three months before me. So we all had our first baby within six months. And I kind of would just, yeah, it was beautiful. Now there's this, you know, free little cousins, these little boys that are all, you know, who love each other very much and close in age. It's really gorgeous. And for me that they were who I would, you know, check in with if I had questions or things like that. So? Yeah, look, I can't say that mom guilt is something it's actually ever really been on my radar too much. I certainly, I would say I have to be mindful of how much time I spend working. And, you know, I try to make sure that when my son gets home, like my studios, the first room on the left when he come into our house, and I love that, you know, when he comes home from school, if, if I haven't picked him up, usually I do pick him up. But if I haven't, you know, he'll make a beeline for this room. And we'll have a big hug, and I'll stop what I'm doing. And we'll you know, and then if I need to keep working, I'll either say to my husband, I need to do a little bit of extra work for half an hour or whatever. But I try to not let it extend much beyond that. If I can kind of do pens down when he gets home so that we can hang out. But yeah, I don't I don't know if that's disappointing that I don't have a lot to sort of offer on the mum, the mum guilty. And if anything, I I think I feel a bit sad that there's a word like that. Question, because I do feel like a word like that could offer a slippery slope for some people. Because if I'm having mom guilt, about what and where do you draw the line of you know, how much of something whatever it is time to you. So Mum guilt about how much? I don't know, where do you draw the line? Do you end up becoming paranoid that? I think isn't it? Yeah, I realized that taking taking time for myself is important. And, you know, a couple of times, I've said to my husband, you know what, I'm gonna go and get a hotel room in the city. And I'm gonna go out for dinner by myself, and I'll be home tomorrow. Look, I've only done it a couple of times, but it's been at those points where I've thought, oh my gosh, I am I'm really maxed out here, like, stress wise, or, you know, and I've gone and done that. And I've thought I haven't felt guilty but I actually need is for the sake of, you know, my sanity and and also, I'll come back, you know, better. And I almost feel like not doing those sorts of things is actually would actually be remiss of me in being a good member of my family and a good mom. So same with with exercise, you know, my husband I both prioritize giving each other time to exercise each day because we know that for it's important to burn off all that cortisol and keep your stress levels down and I think we're much happier for it and it's just kind of about negotiating times and and you know, taking over the reins on the domestic duties that we get those things done, as I think we both realized that that, that time to look after ourselves is important for us to be the best parents that we can be. And best, you know, husband and wife to each other to you know, it's not just about our son. Yeah, exactly. It's the whole package. Yeah, like you said, we were talking, I don't know if I'd press record yet or not. But we're talking there, hey, you feel like you've got a really good unit. It's like, you all exist, the three of you together, and it's not you're not isolated as making you. This makes you a better mom, this makes you better part of a unit. And you all have those feelings, I suppose that things contribute to making you feel like you're better part of that unit. So yeah, I definitely enjoy. And I think that it's not just about the mum stuff. Totally, I feel like we've got, you know, we're a great little female family. And I think that's because my husband and I put a conscious effort into doing things that that make it that way. You know, we always talk about how we're spending time, each day or on the weekend, like we'll say to each other. What do you need to get done this weekend is usually our first question to each other. And that that could be anything from like, leftover work that needs being tended to, or my husband just might really want to get in the garden and plant some seeds or, you know, whatever it is, he might want times, but he is an amazing Baker. And he he is is on a bit of a fruit life Bender at the moment. So he'll and that requires quite a bit of time, you know, it's gonna Yeah, the Eastern is starter, and all the things that that needs time. And so we often check in with each other. What do you want to get done this weekend around that, you know, to make sure everything gets done, and then that includes as well, whatever's going on with our son or whatever we think, you know, he might be needing pets, there's a lot of a lot of kind of negotiating in terms of, you know, how we plan and spend our time and making sure everyone's kind of what they need out of life. Really. Yeah, you know, if my husband wants to go hang out with his friends at the footy, and he'll give me that heads up. And I know that that's, you know, important for him to do and go and have that time with his friends. And I much prefer he go does it at the football ground at the MCG rather than at home because he gets quite stressed. I don't really want to be found anyway. So it's really like my dad, my God. It's something I just don't get either. You know, I'm not, I'm not a sports person. You know, it's when the sports part of the news comes on. That's my cue to life. Which I don't care. I have this little sort of, I wouldn't call it quite a chip on my shoulder. But I'm like, Why isn't there an Art section on the news? You know? Why is it all this? Awful? And cricket? I mean, come on, like, there's others. Right stuff going on? Why is it just like, first part is bad news. And then the second part is, who's what guys are kicking a ball around? Like, is that really what we've got? Yeah, the two choices you get. But did that annoy you then this is something that really got me frustrated through the pandemic, when in particular, you guys over there you you did it a lot harder than we did here with your lockdown for, you know, I don't know how many days it was, but it was big, that the sport kept going, and they get to keep traveling around the country and doing whatever they liked. But all that stopped and I don't know, that really annoyed me. Do you know I? Strangely, it's almost a little bit like a like, for me, that newborn phase of being a mom is a bit like a blur to me. I almost feel a bit the same about the lock downs. Yeah. Like when I think back, I'm trying to reflect on what you're talking about. I'm like, I don't even remember was this spot on? You know, I don't know. I think because we're all just kind of getting our head around, like, oh my gosh, what is happening? You know, like, it's this, this real? And so it just is like, you were living it whereas we were watching you guys live it like we you know, maybe that's why because because you're in the trenches dealing with it, you know, that could be why that? I don't know it was maybe it was just a survival of, you know, trying to stay sane. Part of me maybe it's just locked in section of it. I will say though, that there was parts about that lock down that I'm grateful for like, you know, we had some pretty beautiful family times. You know, we had to be inventive about how we had fun and how we, you know, spent time together and it to still enjoy ourselves and we came up with things we otherwise wouldn't have done. And so I do try to look back on that period as something that you know, I try to see the good in it because to look back on it with any sort of not regret, that's not the word to look back on it and annoyed about it. Skills doesn't do anyone any favors. So I try and see the good in it. Plus, I did enjoy. I don't love crafts, and I went into the city last night to see the amazing clay, Dorian Gray, the Art Center and was really good. And he was absolutely pumping and packed. And in my head, I was just like, oh, I want to get out of here like I did. I did like that quiet, but the lockdown actually offered. But boy, I'm certainly glad that you know, we're getting back to a type of normal to Yeah, that's it isn't it? All right, well, the other the other lovely topic I talked about is identity. And, again, this is completely individual to everyone. So everyone's take on this is different, too, which is good. Whether you sort of had a shift in the way you saw yourself, either positively or negatively, or how the concept of your own identity might have changed when you did become a mum. That's a really interesting one to think about. Because I feel like it was a it was a it's been a slow burn. And I feel like it's an evolving shifting identity because a mum of a newborn is a different mum to a mum of a six year old, in my experience, there's different there's different different things you have to navigate. And so what becomes you know, your focus is ever changing. And I feel like with that, you know, you're you're ever changing to kind of keep up with it as well. But I do remember having this was literally like a sliding door moment when because I was induced for my labor because I had a lot of anxiety around giving birth. And I was booked in to go and had my baby. And I remember walking out the front door of our house. And as I was walking towards the door, opening it and thinking, this is the last time I'll leave this house, not as a mum and shutting the door behind me and sort of thinking like that, like it really felt like closing a chapter. That was there's something really sad about that it felt like saying sort of goodbye to a part of myself, and myself. That was all I knew up until till that point. And but being very open to what lie ahead, but also slightly terrified. And then next thing you know, there's this little baby bear that you're you're responsible for, and oh my gosh, I can't even articulate the identity shift. Like it's, and I think, look, I can speak about it from an artist point of view because being an artist, or being a creative person has always been such a big part of my identity. And for me, that has always taken up a lot of time in my life. And so to then have that time less available because you know, a newborn is one is all consuming and trying to come to terms with that part of me being just maybe on hold for a little bit. But even still, I was I sort of I couldn't I couldn't keep it on hold for very long. You know, I was having meetings with clients fairly soon after and they'd come over because then you're not long ago I had a baby and I'd be sitting on the couch breastfeeding, you know, little two month old bye Maybe while we're having meetings about, you know, different stuff and the clients I had at the time, were awesome about it, actually, they were really supportive of, you know, me wanting to get back to work. And I felt really empowered actually working in and feeding a baby at the same time. Yeah, yeah, I remember, I remember taking bales on a photo shoot, that I was styling and producing. And I had him strapped to me and I was carrying around props. And I remember just thinking like, this is actually fun. Like, I'm actually I can work and have this baby and take care of him and be still being creative. And so I sort of just ease back into it, like, you know, one bit at a time and but I was quite quick to do that. But I didn't take a long break without making any art or doing anything creative at all. And I just sort of had to do it in a way where I sort of explored what was and wasn't possible with him. Yep. You know, I've got a I don't know why must have come up as a must have come up with a phone memory. A photo of bales in his little bouncer next to me while I'm hot glue gunning a hydrangea spike hydrangea to a headband for you for a headpiece for a friend. And I just thought, you know, that's actually looked back on that photo quite fondly, you know that I was still able to keep being creative and it's wasn't without its challenges. There were certainly would have been times of frustration, but they don't stick out in my memory. Yeah. I don't look back on that time as as being particularly challenging, but I don't I'm not suggesting that it wasn't. Yeah, it just doesn't stick out that way. Yeah, yeah. Because I think I feel like with parenting I can do I don't know if what your thoughts on this are, but you do tend to just remember the the parts you know, this, say having a newborn that's so hard. And there'd be times I remember where I was like, oh my god, like, is this day really happening? Could it be any worse, but they're not the days that stick out? It's the loves what sort of stick with me from those those times? So, yeah, so my identity, I think has I'd say I work pretty hard to try and maintain my sense of self, my creative sense of self. And that's had to be a conscious effort because Because being a parent is you know, becomes such a big focus to keep that creativity alive and nurtured you know, did require some conscious effort and planning. But I've certainly found it to be possible did you sort of have any thoughts or expectations of how the two worlds would coexist the day to day parenting and the creative work? Well, I was recommended. One book actually called I think it was called you probably know it. Motherhood and creativity is that well, it's home Rachel power of the divided heart. I think so. It's got all the like Clare Bowditch different creative people in it is that's cool. I had Rachel on that episode last season, because we've been recommending me this book. I've never read it. And I've felt really embarrassed that I'd never read it because it's amazing. And I can understand why it resonated with so many people. So I messaged her on Instagram and said, Can I have you on my podcast? And she came on and it was amazing. And it's one of the one of the most like amazing moments like that. Yeah. But yes, I know. A wonderful book. I'm sure a lot of people listening know the book, too. Yeah, so I did read that. Now. To be honest, I can't remember whether I read it before after I had had my son. But I look, I know that book had a lot more to offer than this. But at the time, my biggest take out from it was it sounds like I'm gonna need a nanny because I kept reading all these success stories of these creative women getting on with the creative practice. But there would seem to be many of those stories, you know, like a nanny or someone kind of. And at that time, I thought, Oh, I don't know, the thought of, I've never, I've never grown up with having a nanny, or, you know, it would just sort of wasn't kind of on my radar. So, it what that did though was it gave me the confidence and maybe green light, if you like, if I'd had any hesitation to, to get help, you know, I would have people come and look after my son, you know, that I would pay to come and look after him so I could get on with my work. And I did, that book did make me realize that that was, you know, perhaps as part of the reality of what might need to be done at certain times, if you do want to get on with your work. And look, my memory of that book is a little a little fuzzy, because it was some time ago that I read it. So I hope I'm not misrepresenting it. When I'm speaking about it, but that was my my biggest take out was that, you know, getting help is you know, was caring for your child is okay. And, yeah. And, you know, perhaps essential in the world that we live in, and with how, you know, our society is generally the primary carer and, and so on, you'd have expected that you take to village kind of philosophies from previous generations. Yeah. And when you don't have like, that much of a village around you, like I mentioned, you know, our parents are, you know, geographically away from us. You eat sometimes just might have to rent a village. Yeah. But, you know, that sort of gave me that, I don't want to say permission, but the reassurance that, you know, you don't have to do it all yourself, and you can, you can ask for help. And whether that's, you know, in people's situations are different, whether it's, you know, like you said, you can you, you pay someone to come in, or you've got your neighbor or whatever, it's, I think we've lost that feeling that we can ask for help. I think we've become a lot more insular in this, you know, particularly our generation that you've got to do it all yourself, you've got to be the super mum that handles everything. And then if you don't get it, right, oh, no, you haven't been a good mum, you know, whereas my mum, you know, they, they asked the neighbor to babysit, or, you know, it's changed a lot. Yeah, and I think that's it What have you got coming up that you can share that you're working on or anything that's, that's coming out in the future? Well, lots actually, it's been a very busy, very busy year. And the tricky thing with my work is often you know, I'm working six to sometimes 12 months in advance of when things actually coming to life. So I have to keep a lot of stuff, you know, quiet for a long time. And when I'm so excited about it can be really hard. But I've got some great things coming to life. So I've just worked on a beautiful collaboration with namely co so they do beautiful, custom knitted blankets and some beautiful little apparel pieces. And so we've done flow Harris, namely ko collaboration that is coming out very soon. And the team behind namely, is just fantastic. And I've been really enjoying that, you know, collaborative process with them. I've been really fortunate in general, actually, that the partners that I work with are such nice people and very clever and very creative and wonderful collaborators so that it's often a very joyful experience. So that's a really exciting collaboration that is coming out soon. And what is really massive news to me is that I'm launching my own label. So Fleur Harris, will be stocked in David Jones. come October. I've worked with him. Thank you. I've worked with an amazing team. To bring this to life. It's been months and months and months of hard work. Hard but fun work if it's been the most fantastic process and we've designed it is the most beautiful looking and beautiful quality apparel for babies up to eight years old. It's really exciting. And so that's that's kind of a milestone moment for me in my career. Because typically, I've always, you know, released, designed and release products through collaborations, whereas this is completely under my own name. So it's a big stepping stone and a little bit scary, but also very exciting because the product is so beautiful. So well done. Oh, thank you, thank you, it still doesn't feel real. So I think it won't be until I go in to David Jones and see it on the shelf that I'll be like, Oh, my gosh, there's a flyer section in Davy Jones, I can't believe another really exciting news is that Adairs kids and I are celebrating being in our fifth year of our collaboration together. And so we are re releasing some of the most popular prints, there's some new colorways there's some new products being added to some of the like, the more iconic collections, like the woodlands collection, we've got some new pieces coming out in that we've done a whole new photo shoots. And it's really nice to kind of just take a moment to pause and stop and celebrate, you know, what we've achieved together. And because it's not often that collaborations lasts so long, and it's so endearing. So to have built that relationship with them and created this world of beautiful products, children together is so nice to stop and celebrate, you know? Yeah. And I think that's something we don't do, too. We don't, we don't, I think we feel like we shouldn't, we shouldn't have that ego, to be proud of ourselves or celebrate, but definitely have to celebrate moments like that. It's easy to sometimes not be able to find the moment, you know, because because often different projects or different things you've got going on in your life happen in stages, you know, and so it can be hard to work out well, when is our champagne moment. And so it feels nice that we've actually decided to sort of mark that, that milestone and, and be grateful for it and happy about it. So that's really nice to be able to do to take stock in, you know, reflect on that. And they always do things in a really beautiful way. So I've had a peek at the photoshoot that they've put together, where they're actually mashed up quite a few different collections and put them all on in this one sheet. So this is one bed that's kind of got a bit of everything in it, which actually, actually looks really good. So yeah, it's nice to see ya. Good on. Yeah, that's congratulations on your successes. And so well, I think that the attitude, and like what you bring to your work is such a beautiful way of working. And I've just, I hope, wishing you so much success in the future. And I'm sure that your work will endure, as you've said, like five years with one collaboration is pretty significant. And I'm so looking forward to seeing what you put, like what comes out, you know, thank you, Alison can work you can keep bringing to the world. It's so wonderful. Sorry, lovely. Thank you, Alison. That is really very kind of you. And I must express my admiration and appreciation for what you do too, because you've got a lot going on in your life and a lot of your own creative projects going on. And this podcast and I know how much work must go into putting this together for you. And I think there's a lot to be said for women who aren't being proactive in uplifting and giving a platform to other women. You know, we have international women's day where you know, everyone posts on their social media, how good it is to support women. But you're an example of someone actually actively doing that. And I'm really, I have a lot of respect for that and very grateful for the opportunity to join in with the fantastic work you're doing. Thank you for It's so lovely for you to say that you're a great example of a great woman. Thank you. Yeah, good on you at all. I just love it. Love it so much. It's been really nice speaking today. It has it's been so lovely. Thank you so much for coming on. I've just really loved chatting. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to connect either leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

2 Cherie Harte Canadian interdisciplinary artist 2 Article # 23 June 2023 I am an interdisciplinary artist born in Toronto Canada and I create oodles of abstracted hearts. My desire is to spread some love while sparking conversation about our modern definition of love. I explore love as an action rather than a passive emotion. Art is my vehicle for deep diving into childhood, intergenerational trauma, and exploring constructs outside societal norms. My modern day artistic influences are Yayoi Kusama, Wendy Red Star, Rose Wylie, Misaki Kawai, Hannah Hanski, London Kaye and Tracey Emin. And if I could teleport back in time I would love to visit the studios of Hilma afKlint, Frida Kahlo, Louise Bourgeois, Joan Mitchell and Maud Lewis along with the studios of Jean Michel Basquiat, Cy Twombly and Keith Haring. I now live in a century home on 10 acres in rural Ontario. My partner and I are slowly restoring the home and beginning our adventures in regenerative agriculture. Art, farm, food and community! I dream of processing my own wool for textile and fiber work. I have always been creative. As a child I would create spaces so I could tuck into my closet, close the door to the world, and just doodle and dream. We moved a lot when I was growing up and I was always redecorating my bedroom - including moving my furniture and making spaces for myself to get lost in imaginary play. I recall this series of baby faces I drew. I would spend hours imagining them and creating unique personalities for all of them. Like so many kids I was told by teachers and guidance counselors that I lacked any innate creative skill and that art was not a valid career choice. So I went to post secondary to study psychology, knowing it was not the right fit for me, all the while making and creating on the side. In my early 20’s I was hospitalized for several years with depression and I put a pause on completing my degree. A story I share in depth later in the interview. Fast forward to my 30’s. I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder that was impacting my physical wellbeing, my mental health, and pretty much every facet of my life. A stay at home Mom, married with two children, my marriage was on life support. A very good friend invited me to attend an art class at a local studio with her and the rest is history. I began painting, exploring and creating again. Creating was my portal back to health. The owner of the studio / gallery space where I was painting suggested a solo exhibit in 2017 and I have not looked back since. I am a multidisciplinary artist and I love playing with paint, clay, beading, collage, textile, fiber and found objects- depending on the demands of daily life -and what materials are available to me. I have 5 children - 3 are my biological kiddos and 2 are my stepchildren. The kids are age Nyles age 5 (bio Mom), Paige age 23 (bio Mom), Liv age 23, Noah age 25 (bio Mom) and Zya age 26. My partner and I met in our early 40’s, and though we both had two children from our first marriages, we knew we wanted more. We also knew we did not want to live with regret. So we immediately got to work and our family welcomed our son Nyles into the world in 2018. He has been the glue for our big kids and such a beautiful gift to our family. All five of the kids are creative in some capacity - whether it be drawing, painting, crocheting, needle point, sewing, cooking… "A stay at home Mom, married with two children, my marriage was on life support. I began painting, exploring and creating again. Creating was my portal back to health." My art life is always growing and shifting as my personal and familial life changes for me. Right now I am taking a few weeks to care for my partner who just had carpal tunnel surgery on both hands. And last week my youngest was home with the flu. So the sofa became my studio - in between caring for sick family. But generally I start my studio time by lighting a candle and some white sage or incense for clearing my space. I then light some palo santo and do some self reiki. I ask that the work that I am about to do be in the service of the higher good of myself and all others. I then turn on some solfeggio frequencies and I journal 3 pages - stream of consciousness. A beautiful gift passed down to me from Julia Cameron’s book “The Artists Way”. Sometimes it is more than 3 pages and sometimes I doodle along the way - ideas that I have for expressing universal love and healing. I then carry this journaling over to my canvas or textile work. Painting, crocheting and weaving my daily experiences into my work. Asking the universe for what I wish for the world - love, peace, caring, abundance, compassion and I ask for healing for the parts of me that are still unlearning and learning. I often use aromatherapy, reiki symbolism, oracle card reading, crystal and sound healing in my studio sessions. Infusing each artwork with additional energetic medicines. My day is spent researching, creating, sourcing supplies, and doing administrative work. I try to meet with other artists and build in time to explore museums, galleries and art exhibits. Energetics and spirituality are a big component of my work and I incorporate reiki, sound healing , aromatherapy, and tarot/orcale in my daily studio routines. This is full time work for me. Often I am working during the day plus evenings and weekends. I am essentially running a small business where I am creating the product by hand - without an assistant ( on my dream list). So the hours are intense and I do my best to build my routines around family time. I have a very supportive partner who helps with a lot of the household chores so I can focus on time with the kids and my work. He also helps out in the studio with projects he finds interesting. And I have the kids in the studio as much as possible. I find I learn so much from their open minded exploration and conversation. And our home is an extension of the studio - we spend a lot of time making together. KEEP SHOWING UP! When things get hard, when things seem like they are not going to plan, or not making sense in the moment - keep showing up! In my experience, this is often when the big breakthroughs are about to occur. You just have to find the passion and drive to keep showing up for yourself and your work. My one other big piece of advice is - BELIEVE IN YOURSELF! If you don’t believe in yourself, and your work, how can you expect others to believe in you??? Do some self reflection to find out why you don’t believe in yourself and clear those blocks. If you don’t believe in yourself, your work, your worth and your message - then why should others? My youngest was really sick for a long stretch with covid this winter and it meant no studio time for weeks - so I started crocheting again. A gift my Grandmother shared with me when I was a child… and from that pivoting to meet the needs of my family came my series of crocheted hearts. I find life is always throwing curve balls, especially as a Mum caring for the needs of others, and I am constantly adapting my studio practice to consider my needs and those of my family. I am very grateful to be a part of an artist parents group started by Sarah Cullen and Alison Thompson, called Mothra, here in Ontario. I have attended two very magical artist residencies with the group, along with my partner and our youngest son, on Toronto island. And the group now meets monthly over zoom to talk all things art, parenting and life related. Did I mention how magical this group is??? I also have very supportive kids and a partner whose family comes out to as many of my exhibits as they can. One of my stepdaughters joined me as my right hand at a recent exhibit in New York CIty and my Mother-in-law traveled with me to London UK for my exhibit there with the Other Art Fair. They not only support me but they support the arts, and artists, in general . It is fabulous! Both support networks have led to many deep conversations about life and art. And both have shifted the way I perceive myself, my work and the world around me. I wouldn't be where I am today without them. Parenting has taught me a lot about the importance of being in the moment, experimentation and play. And has allowed me to drop the accumulation of societal pressure and debris for perfection and judgment. There is a freedom in the way young children express themselves in the world. How they befriend everyone they meet in a minute, and are just curious about being alongside friends, and learning from them. No masks or pretense - no ego - all heart centered openness to present possibility and play. Do I believe Mum guilt exists - yes. Have I experienced it personally - Yes! Do I desire to perpetuate it — absolutely no. I believe Mum guilt is part of a larger societal problem of toxic patriarchal systems, designed to diminish a woman’s worth, rather than support and celebrate women. I find it crops up for me when I am parenting - and feel I should be working. Or when I am working and feel I should be parenting. Or when I am with friends and not with my kids and partner…. It is there, living like a mania right under the surface of my skin, always. It has me discounting every little thing I do or do not do… questioning… Am I working too much, Mothering too much, socializing too much…. Or not enough…. My way of working through it is being as fully present to each moment of my day as I can be. I have a daily journaling and meditation practice that helps a lot. I anchor myself with reminders of what my overall day, week and month has looked liked. Right down to the nitty gritty like reminding myself that I made a healthy lunch that took 30 minutes of time - but is a priority for my health and the health of my family. Without these grounding practices I find it is very easy to lose sight of my priorities, how much I have grown, and accomplished right up to the present moment . So I do my best to be fully present. If I am Mothering - I do it by choice. If I am painting - I am doing it by choice. If there is a chore that I am doing that does not excite me - I focus on the larger picture blessing. I am folding laundry because I make the conscious choice to bless my family with a clean and well organized home. Another chore I do not enjoy is washing my paint brushes - so I focus on the way I will feel when I walk into a clean, tidy studio. And the way I will feel when I am painting in that clean studio with well cared for brushes. It's all a mindset thing for me. Creating the beautiful life I desire, and deserve, to live. When my schedule calls for more rigorous work hours, away from family, I ask for help from my partner. And I trust that my family is in good stead and that I have banked precious moments with them and let them know how important they are to me. I cannot tell them enough in a day how much I love them and how I feel I won the lottery to be their Mom and partner. And because words can be cheap - I do my very best to live that caring through my daily actions and by taking more family time when my work schedule is less rigorous. I have essentially had three entirely different experiences with Motherhood. Once when my older children (now in their early 20”s) were born, once when I stepped into the role of stepmother and then again when my 5 year old was born. I don't identify with parenting as an identity shift at all. Parenting for me has always been more of an extension of me. A deepening of my relationship with myself, and of course, others. I see Mothering as such an immense gift. I find Motherhood very fulfilling, but of course, it is important to me to be more than a Mother! Just as it is important to me to be more than just a daughter, or wife, or sister, or friend, or artist. All of the parts are important and they all hold different importance at different stages of life. I do this by deeply listening to my own intuition and heart whispers and again being as fully present as possible. Learning to edit my life and prioritize what is most important to me. Saying yes to what excites me and no to what doesn’t elicit full belly butterflies. "I find life is always throwing curve balls, especially as a Mum caring for the needs of others, and I am constantly adapting my studio practice to consider my needs and those of my family." Art is definitely fulfilling to me and I believe I am a better person because of the work I do. But I am also a better person because I have experienced Motherhood and cultivated unconditional love for another human(S). And of course I want my children to see me living a healthy and fulfilled life beyond parenting because I want each of them to live healthy and fulfilled lives. I think the most important thing is choice. And doing the things we do consciously, with great love, from a deep desire to make the world a better place. I recently watched a movie about Grace Kelly - an American actor who married the Prince of Monaco. For those who don’t know Grace Kelly gave up her very successful acting career to step into a different stage of her life. Mothering, supporting her husband in his role as head of state, and also doing what she felt best for the country she was called to co-pilot with her husband. And although she gave up her career, I believe she found a different purpose, and she carried out her duties with great passion. And I personally think that is a beautiful story. I believe the answer lies in more men - husbands, fathers - doing the same. Stepping up to either be primary caregivers themselves and/or loudly celebrating and supporting the work of the women in their lives. I do not necessarily think that our societal shift to a more work-centric model of living has been healthy for anyone - with - or without children. Full time parenting, done with great love, is one of the most important jobs one can undertake. I realize not everyone feels fulfilled in that role and I can’t help but wonder how that would change if societal opinions and remuneration about womens worth and caregiving went through a healing metamorphosis . As Mothers I feel we can’t win - in the society we are currently role playing in. If we work outside of the home we are judged for not being good Mothers. If we choose to stay home we are judged for not working outside the home and furthering women's rights. I think the problem lies in societal judgment and a course correction might find us living in a happier, healthier collective. Having been both a full time stay at home Mom and a working Mom in this lifetime I feel the important thing is having choice and a support network to pursue our passions while caring for our families. Creating is absolutely vital to my wellbeing and growth. Making money from creating is fabulous, but it certainly does not determine my worth, or influence my desire to continue to dream and create. Money is simply energy. A totally manmade construct. Used by others to project unto me what they believe is the value of me and my work - as an artist Mother. Money is great but I definitely do not allow it to determine my worth as an artist or person. At some very sad point in history society collectively bought into the notion that women, their voices, and their work, was (and continues to be) less than that of men. The artworld has sadly played into this toxic viewpoint by filling galleries and museums with somewhere in the vicinity of 90% male voices - some of which are extremely misogynist - such as Picasso. The collective, and the institutions we support, will only ever be as healthy as our weakest link. And until we recognize that women’s voices, and work, are not only vital - but equal to the work of men - we will continue to have a very sick society. I was born in 1973 and my Mother, who is Métis, was 15 when she gave birth to me. My growing up life was very abusive and it was a pretty regular occurrence for police and childrens aid to be called to our home. It was also common day for me to hear how my parents did not want me- and if they could do it all over again - I would not be here. I haven’t shared that publicly until now but I think it is an important thing for me to voice, because if I experienced it there are likely other young women experiencing it now, and I want them to know they absolutely do matter. And our world does need them and needs to hear their voices. My mother was definitely expected to work outside of the home, plus carry out all of the domestic duties, and she had little to no family and community support. It seems to me that women fought for the right to work outside of the home, and men said okay you can have it, but you still have to take care of all domestic duties. And that is still the case today with most women carrying the bulk of the domestic load while also caring for children, aging parents and working outside of the home. When my parents divorced I recall my Mother working three jobs at one point to make ends meet. My experience with all of this as a child, and the impact on my own parenting, is extremely complex. I am what they term a latch-key kid - I had no parents home to raise me. And as the eldest female I became responsible for the bulk of the domestic duties at a very young age. I always knew that I wanted to be a parent. Looking back I think I craved the family connection I did not have, and I very likely unconsciously craved the soul journey children would bring, even if I was not aware of it at the time . And I always wanted to be present for my children, to celebrate their unique voices, and for each of them to know how deeply loved and appreciated they are. That they are the most beautiful gifts in my life. It has taken me 40 plus years to realize that I can only give this gift to my children - if I believe it of and for - myself first. This is not an easy integration in a society that continues to perpetuate the toxic myth of women being intrinsically less than. Understanding my intrinsic worth, and that my voice and work do truly matter, is ongoing work for me. It is my work of a lifetime. THIS NEXT PARAGRAPH CONTAINS MENTIONS OF SUIDICE AND MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES My journey with mental health struggles began as a young child. In my grade 7 year I essentially stopped going to school, and because I had no parent home, no one caught it.I flew under the radar - still getting well above passing grades without ever being present. I recall having thoughts of killing myself at this time. Thoughts that I carried with me until my early 20’s when I returned home from a night out with friends, took every pill I could find in my medicine cabinet, and went to sleep hoping not to wake up. I spent a few years as an inpatient in a psychiatric ward where I was diagnosed first as depressed and then as bipolar. Medications offered little promise and the side effects were often worse than the symptoms. I was then prescribed electric shock therapy and had several treatments until one day the anesthetist was late and nurses decided to begin strapping me to the bed before I was sedated - so their schedule would not be affected. It was such a profound and demeaning experience that I refused any further treatment. I then went on to try to kill myself one last time shortly after my final electroshock therapy. It was during this episode that I had a dream that all of my family were present (they never attended the hospital during my depression) and a doctor was speaking to them and telling them that I was going to die. And that was it. I made the decision that I wanted to live. I made the decision that I matter to me and that is enough. Contact Cherie My website : www.cherieharte.com IG : @cherieharte_studio I am currently working on a solo exhibit of my latest body of work “Gentle Loving Kindness for Everyone”. The details have not been released yet, but I am very excited, and will share on social media and to my newsletter subscribers once dates are confirmed. Until then my work will be traveling to the Affordable Art Fair in Seattle, New York and Singapore with Spence Gallery in Toronto. BACK

Hannah Olson US artist S3 Ep90 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Hannah Olson is an artist and mother of 3 girls, living in Utah, USA. Originally from Luton England, she has enjoyed being creative from a very young age. In High School she had 2 really wonderful art teachers that pushed her and introduced her to many mediums like watercolour, charcoal and pencils, and encouraged her to pursue it. A high school teacher's words have remained with her "It doesn't matter what you do, but always stay creative." In College she decided to take all of the art classes she possibly could and discovered oil painting and fell in love with it. She tends not to stick to the same mediums, or subject matters, mixing it up between charcoal and watercolours, painting portraits, landscapes and still life's. Hannah really enjoys the challenge of working with new materials and subjects. She is inspired by many artists like William Bouguereau, Sargent, Van Gogh, Carl Rungius and more recent artists such as Jenedy Paige, Cesar Santos, and Andrew Tischler. While being a mum to three little ones is not easy, she finds time to paint and draw in between nappy changes, piles of wash, and endless messes. Although her children are her main focus right now she can't wait for the chance to create more and inspire others through her work. Today we are joined by Hannah's 5 month old daughter Millie today in the podcast. Hannah - website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... 1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,800 Being a Mum podcast where I, Alison Newman, a singer, songwriter and Aussie mum of two, 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:13,800 enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,560 issues they've encountered while trying to be a mum and continue to create. 4 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:23,280 You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work's been 5 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:29,080 influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms and we also stray into territory such 6 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,480 as the patriarchy, feminism and capitalism. 7 00:00:33,480 --> 00:00:37,920 You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes along with a 8 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:43,200 link to the music played, how to get in touch and a link to join our supportive and lively 9 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,400 community on Instagram. 10 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,960 I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast but if at 11 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,840 any time you're concerned about your mental health I urge you to talk to those around 12 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,640 you, reach out to health professionals or seek out resources online. 13 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,160 I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing 14 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,800 page alisonnewman.net slash podcast. 15 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:13,160 The art of being a mum would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water 16 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:18,320 which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bowendig people in the Beren region. 17 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:23,840 I'm working on land that was never ceded. 18 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,640 Thank you so much for tuning in today, welcome to the podcast. 19 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:32,520 My guest this week is Hannah Olson, she's an artist and a mother of three girls living 20 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,680 in Utah in the United States. 21 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:41,000 Originally from Luton in England, Hannah has enjoyed being creative from a very young age. 22 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:45,720 In high school she had two really wonderful art teachers that pushed her and introduced 23 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:50,880 her to many mediums like watercolour, charcoal and coloured pencils and encouraged her to 24 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:52,340 pursue art. 25 00:01:52,340 --> 00:01:56,640 A high school teachers words have stayed with her ever since, it doesn't matter what you 26 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,720 do but always stay creative. 27 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,680 In college Hannah decided to take all of the art classes she possibly could and discovered 28 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,640 oil painting and fell in love with it. 29 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:12,840 Nowadays she tends not to stick to the same mediums or subject matters, mixing it up between 30 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:18,720 charcoal and watercolours, painting portraits, landscapes and still lifes. 31 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:24,080 Hannah really enjoys the challenge of working with new materials and subjects. 32 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:29,840 She's inspired by many artists like Van Gogh and more recent artists such as Genity Page 33 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:31,920 and Cesar Santos. 34 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:36,320 And while being a mum to three little girls is not easy, Hannah finds the time to paint 35 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:41,480 and draw in between nappy changes, piles of washing and endless messes. 36 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,880 Although her children are her main focus right now, she can't wait for the chance to create 37 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,240 more and inspire others through her work. 38 00:02:50,240 --> 00:03:00,440 Today on Hannah's chat you'll hear from her five month old daughter Millie who joins us. 39 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,280 Thank you Hannah for coming on, it's such a pleasure to meet you today. 40 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,120 It's a pleasure to meet you too, I'm excited to be here. 41 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:08,640 Oh that's awesome. 42 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:13,240 So where abouts are you at the moment and what time is it? 43 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:20,440 So I currently live in Utah in the United States and it is 5.30 at night. 44 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,240 So you would be in Monday still wouldn't you? 45 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,160 Yes, it is still Monday here. 46 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,680 That's the thing I find so fascinating about doing this is like the other day I was talking 47 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:36,320 to someone, yeah it was their night before, I don't usually get people that are ahead 48 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:42,360 of me just because where Australia is, we're sort of fairly close to the start of the day 49 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:43,360 I suppose. 50 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:49,440 Yeah but yeah I've had some fun ones, like yeah I don't know it's just I find it so fascinating 51 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:56,000 that we're all here but we're all existing in these different times. 52 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,000 And can we introduce your little visitor you've got sitting on your lap there if that's alright? 53 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:05,960 Yes so this is Millie my youngest and she just turned five months old and she can be 54 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:11,360 quite loud hopefully she'll not be too bad. 55 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,320 That's cool if she wants to get involved in the chat that's fine with me. 56 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:16,320 We love her. 57 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:17,320 Oh she's adorable. 58 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:23,120 Oh I love that blue headband you've got on her head, it really brings out her eyes like 59 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:24,120 it's just gorgeous. 60 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,520 I know my sister-in-law gave it to me, she gave me two of them and I'm like oh I need 61 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,520 one in every colour they're so fun. 62 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:57,640 I love it. 63 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,720 Tell me how you got into your painting, is it something you've been doing for a long 64 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:03,720 time? 65 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:09,640 So yes and no I've been creative since I feel like everyone has been creative at some point 66 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,520 growing up as a kid like you have your crayons and all that so it was something I always 67 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:20,960 enjoyed and then it wasn't until I hit high school I had two really wonderful art teachers 68 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:28,480 that pushed me and also introduced me to loads of different mediums mostly wash of colour 69 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:33,480 and charcoal and coloured pencils were the main ones I did but I feel like in school 70 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:40,080 they kind of show you a bunch of different kinds but they were the ones who really were 71 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:45,640 like I think you have a knack for it like you could be really good if you wanted to 72 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:50,840 and of course I had my mom who was very like thought everything I did was amazing which 73 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:51,840 was very helpful. 74 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:55,320 Yeah very supportive and encouraging. 75 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,880 And so I just remember my one teacher in high school kind of pulled me aside one day and 76 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:05,840 he's like it doesn't matter what you do but always stay creative and so I thought in my 77 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:15,600 head I was like okay it's with me and I've always wanted to do it since then and then 78 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,400 in college or I guess is it university over there? 79 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,520 Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah. 80 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:28,240 I decided to just take all of the art classes I possibly could so the way they have it over 81 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:34,280 here is you have for your first few years like classes that you're required to take 82 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:37,840 so you've got your maths and your english and all of that and then you get elective 83 00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:42,440 classes where you get to choose what you would like to do so I just filled them up with as 84 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:47,720 many art classes as I possibly could because that's what I enjoyed the most and just had 85 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:52,080 a blast and that's where I learned how to do oil painting. 86 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:58,600 I had one oil painting class and I fell in love with it so primarily I oil paint at the 87 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:04,800 moment but I do get a little bit bored every once in a while where I can't just stick to 88 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,440 one thing so it's like I'll do a couple oil paintings and then I'm like oh I really want 89 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:14,240 to do a watercolor so then I'll I'll do that and then oh I really want to do a charcoal 90 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:19,040 so I kind of jump all over the place and I feel like that's also kind of the same with 91 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,760 my my subject matter too. 92 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:31,160 I love portraits yeah I really like like emotions and people and faces and but at the same time 93 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:35,560 you know there's those there's good landscapes and still lifes that I'm like oh just you 94 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,360 walk by and see things you're like oh I just I need to paint that or I need to draw that 95 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:44,320 and so I kind of I hop all over the place which is why if you go on my Instagram it's 96 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:51,120 very mixed there's not like one nice aesthetic it's just all over the place. 97 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:56,320 Yeah I always like a good challenge so yeah there'll be times I'll be like scrolling through 98 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,720 Instagram or I'll be talking to someone and I'll see that someone do something I'm like 99 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:06,080 oh I want to try that I wonder if I can do that and so I think that's also something 100 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:10,000 else that just makes me not stick to one thing. 101 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,000 Yeah. 102 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:12,000 I just have to try it all. 103 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:38,680 I love that. 104 00:08:38,680 --> 00:08:41,720 You sound like you've got a UK accent going on. 105 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:50,600 Yeah I'm originally from England and when I get nervous it comes out usually I've been 106 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:56,080 in the States for quite a long time and even my husband is like I can't hear it anymore 107 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:01,080 it's gone away yeah when I get nervous I guess it's still there. 108 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,680 You revert back to your day to. 109 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:07,520 So yeah when you first when you said watercolour for the first time I went hang on a second 110 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:13,160 I can hear something in there so whereabouts were you from in England? 111 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:19,640 So I was born in Luton just kind of right near London and then my mom was Irish and 112 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:25,120 so we also lived in I lived in Ireland for a few years as well in my younger years and 113 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:30,520 she was a single mom during the beginning portion of my younger years and then she got 114 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:35,400 remarried and so we moved to Texas because that's where her my stepdad was living at 115 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:41,040 the time and then we moved to Utah he got a job change and so that's kind of how we 116 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,560 moved around and so I've just stayed here. 117 00:09:43,560 --> 00:09:48,280 So how long have you been in the US for? 118 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:56,600 Oh let's see I'll do some quick math I'm not great at math probably about I don't know 119 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:57,600 seven years maybe? 120 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:58,600 Yeah right. 121 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,600 I want to say it's been quite a while. 122 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:07,680 Yeah I love that you've still got your accent though I think that's pretty cool but my best 123 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:14,040 friend's Irish from Northern Ireland and she's been out here maybe 12 years 11 or 12 years 124 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:18,040 and she's still thick as like I still have times where I have to ask her to repeat myself 125 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,280 hello Helen if you're listening but and it sort of becomes a bit of a joke like what 126 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,280 did you say say that again? 127 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,200 That's great you know it's gonna be funny when my friends hear me over here they're 128 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,200 like what's wrong with you you sound nothing like you did before. 129 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,840 Yeah that's it isn't it it's all relative isn't it oh that's funny so um yeah back to 130 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:41,120 you sorry I got off track then but I do have a bit of a thing for accents so I sort of 131 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,840 that's another fun thing about chatting to people. 132 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:51,880 So um the style that you do is quite like representative of the object that you're painting 133 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,800 what do you call that style because I'm not very good at all that sort of technical form 134 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:56,800 jargon. 135 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:06,840 Honestly I don't really know I feel like slightly like it's contemporary realist thing like 136 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:12,960 I like I like realism but I also like to see a little bit of a painterly touch to it if 137 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:19,640 that makes sense so I don't yeah I don't I enjoy looking at other people's photo realism 138 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:24,600 but that's not for me I'm I don't know if I have the patience to learn all the technical 139 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:30,320 skills for that so I enjoy I don't know I think I would call it contemporary realism 140 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,560 but I don't even know if that's a thing so yeah no well that I mean that that'll give 141 00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:38,200 people an idea when they're listening but it's like just having a look at the sort of 142 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,360 the different styles like different things you've the subjects I guess there's a there's 143 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:48,160 a gorgeous picture of a cow which I love that I mean I love cows yeah and this building 144 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:54,560 that you posted a lot of posts about what what building is that the building so I don't 145 00:11:54,560 --> 00:12:02,520 know that is a temple for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints down here in Manzai 146 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:08,760 and so that is just part of my religion and it was actually the place that I got married 147 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:17,920 in and oh wow that's pretty spectacular yeah and my my husband's family they his I think 148 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:23,640 it's third great grandfather was the master mason for building the temple and so it has 149 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:52,760 a lot of family history connected to it and so yeah absolutely 150 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:58,080 is this your second child you've got this is my third your third oh my apologies third 151 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:08,360 I've got I've got three girls oh lovely that would keep you busy oh they do they do a whole 152 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:15,240 new world when you have little ones running around so what's the the age the ages of them 153 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:22,720 so my eldest is Shannon and she's five and then my middle is Oakley and she's three and 154 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:27,120 then Millie here is five months little Millie oh I love the name Oakley that's a really 155 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:36,160 that's a really cool name love that yeah we uh oh no oh bubba we uh had a funny story 156 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:41,080 with that with my husband we have a really hard time picking out names especially for 157 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:49,080 girls and of course we had all girls the one you know yeah those are the tough ones and 158 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:54,600 I I was just scrolling through I think I was on Pinterest actually just looking at different 159 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,720 names and I saw the name Oakley and I was like oh I kind of like that and I mean by 160 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:04,680 this point I was already like I don't know 30 some odd weeks pregnant like it's a long 161 00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:10,120 time yeah it was coming close so we needed to make a decision and uh I turned to my husband 162 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,560 I was like I like this name Oakley he's like I suggested that at the beginning and oh you 163 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:20,360 like had you didn't say anything about it I'm like oh well I like it now I guess oh how 164 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:29,440 funny oh dude hello look at that gorgeous smile hey hey darling oh goodness I worked 165 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,880 in childcare for nine years and I was in the baby's room for most of that so and now I 166 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:38,720 work in kindergarten so I miss out on the all the baby snuggles so it's nice to see 167 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,640 the baby snuggles are the best they're my favorite 168 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,840 So throughout the time when you had have had your girls have you have you've been able 169 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,960 to maintain your art practice? 170 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:23,160 I guess I should say it was different I guess I should say that it stopped it was just different 171 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:34,080 and came in waves yeah I feel like when I had my first after you know after a month 172 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:40,840 or so we kind of got in a little bit more of a rhythm and I was able to set aside like 173 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:47,760 okay I'm gonna wake up an hour earlier and focus on myself and have an hour of painting 174 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,920 and get that done and that was really helpful for me but I discovered the more kids you 175 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:59,960 have the less you can plan it is so difficult to plan when you have three little minds completely 176 00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:08,280 different to yours and I don't know I feel like but I do feel like I have learned from 177 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:15,320 having kids that not to waste time like I'm really good at not wasting my time when I 178 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:20,920 have like oh I've got an hour that I can spend I could tell you exactly what I was gonna 179 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,880 do with that hour right now whereas I feel like before I had kids I'd be like oh I've 180 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:34,600 got all day I don't have work today so I can just you know I'll watch a show or maybe sleep 181 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,000 in I'll do this and then by the time I got around to him like oh it's too late now like 182 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:44,600 I should be going to bed and so I feel like I'm a lot better now with time management 183 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:52,360 but I just have less time to work with so yeah yeah it kind of you know it just depends 184 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:57,640 it does help sometimes having like I'll bring the kids in with me into my my little space 185 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:03,560 and I'll set them up with their paints or their colors and that works out it works out 186 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:08,200 decent however you don't get to get like in the zone because I don't know if you've been 187 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:14,040 around little kids but they ask questions all day long and it's like I've answered that 188 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:19,720 question 50 times but I will answer it again for you yeah and now give me five minutes 189 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:24,280 so yeah that's it isn't it yeah but I feel like there's a difference between getting 190 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:30,440 just time to yourself and also spending time with your kids doing your your craft yeah it's 191 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:35,640 sort of like only half your your brain can work on what you want to do because they're there and 192 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:40,360 you're sort of conscious of what they're up to and like you said the questions and they seem to you 193 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:45,800 know their patience runs out so much quicker and you know it's like you just yeah like you said you 194 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:51,720 can't get in that in that flow of letting letting yourself go but but that's but that's a really 195 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:56,520 common thing that people say you know and I often say like when I didn't have kids I don't know what 196 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:04,440 the hell I did with my time like I must have wasted so much time seriously I know yeah I 197 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:11,640 I hear when my I have two younger sisters and I think back to when I was their age I'm like 198 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:21,560 like what did I do with myself like yeah yeah I don't know yeah yeah that's not a whole answer 199 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:26,360 but I I have no idea what I did because there's so many things I want to do now that I can't do and 200 00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:41,720 oh yeah you know what it's worth it 201 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:06,040 So something I like to talk to my mums about is sort of the identity of you know when you're just 202 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:11,080 you just yourself or you know with your partner and then you become a mum did you have sort of 203 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:18,680 any sort of I don't know tricky emotions to work through when you changed to become a mum or were 204 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:26,360 you did you sort of flow through really you know effortlessly I guess I mean I think it depends on 205 00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:35,320 the day because I feel like yes definitely there was an identity difference but I was lucky in that 206 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:41,960 growing up I always wanted to be a mum and so it was something I almost wanted to do more than my 207 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:48,920 art and I think that is helpful because I'm like I know that there's a time in a season with my 208 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:54,360 girls at this age and that at some point you know they're going to be in school and I'm going to 209 00:19:54,360 --> 00:20:02,360 have that time back again so I think I think in that way it wasn't too hard but I mean you do get 210 00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:07,880 those days when you just don't feel like yourself and you're like I just I wish this day could just 211 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:14,600 be me creating with no one else bothering me and I mean I feel like everyone's going to have a hard 212 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:21,720 day sometime but the majority of the days I feel like no I'm doing what I want to be doing and 213 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:27,320 yeah there will be will be time so yeah that's it it's a good way of looking at it like I um 214 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,800 I was actually at a function on Saturday night and there were some people there whose daughter's just 215 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:37,480 turned 20 and got a license and now they have no children to run around or take to places and 216 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:42,600 they're like what do we do with ourselves now and I'm like that will come you know that's because 217 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:47,800 my kids are seven and 15 so at some point in my life I won't have to do that and then I'll go oh 218 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:54,360 my gosh this is my time now so yeah it's like don't don't stress too much because you know it's coming 219 00:20:54,360 --> 00:21:09,800 yeah yeah absolutely 220 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,240 um 221 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,960 with you creating and with the girls um something else I love to talk to my mums about is this 222 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:33,240 concept of mum guilt and I've sort of put that in air quotes because I don't know it's a it's a 223 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:38,600 made-up name I guess to that describes a lot of really deep and complex feelings it's not just 224 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:46,600 as simple as you know hashtag mum guilt um yeah what are your thoughts on that so I 100% have mum 225 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:53,960 guilt or whatever we want to call it and I think that's probably my number one struggle as a mom 226 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:59,640 is just dealing with the emotions of feeling like oh I should be doing other things I should be with 227 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:07,240 my children um I feel like for me it it almost clicks like as soon as I'm feeling happy about 228 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:12,600 something it's like as soon as I'm enjoying what I'm doing I'm instantly like oh should I not be 229 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,960 enjoying myself right now there's a pile of wash that needs to be done or I haven't played any 230 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:23,000 games like children today or and it kind of it's just in the back of your head and it never goes 231 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:31,160 away um and I I do have I do struggle with trying to figure out when it's okay to be like no this is 232 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:38,760 me time I can focus on myself and do my craft right now and then also yes I have two weeks of 233 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:45,720 wash that's in the laundry room and I've got dishes piled up and the floors are a mess and 234 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:51,640 my kids are eating snacks off the floor I should probably stop and yeah you know like yeah yeah 235 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:58,040 it's I have yet to figure out like the best oh uh is it possible I don't know 236 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:03,880 oh that's the thing I feel like yeah I feel like getting it right and and that's also in 237 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,640 air quotes too because I don't I don't think there is a right or wrong it's just whatever 238 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,840 suits but it's really hard to get that balance constantly like I feel like sometimes you feel 239 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,480 like it's going really good and then other times like the scales tip in this the other direction 240 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:22,520 you go oh hang on a sec like that's literally me right now I've got so much washing to do 241 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,760 so much tidying to do and I'm like actually I don't want to do that now I want to do this 242 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:37,960 oh it was it was like me last night I was so I was so on top of it last night because I knew 243 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,920 that I had this podcast and I was so excited about it that I was like I'm gonna clean my living room 244 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:47,800 my kitchen while the kids are in bed and then tomorrow I can just focus and look at my notes 245 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:53,480 and it's gonna be so smooth and so great never think you have a plan when you have kids you just 246 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,600 can't because I woke up in the morning well I woke up about eight times last night well I think it 247 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:03,000 was really only six but it felt like a lot because my little Millie who's usually a really good 248 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:08,440 sleeper and sleeps through the night decided last night was the night to wake up and then 249 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:16,840 I woke up really tired but I'm like oh you know what it's fine because I I cleaned and I was like 250 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,880 the only thing I have to do today is clean the girls playroom because let's be honest it probably 251 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,680 been about two months since I had cleaned it and it was a little bit disastrous so if I'm gonna 252 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:31,960 bring stuff in here to record I need to have it clean but I was like that's grand and so I 253 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:39,240 told my eldest I was like Shannon the only thing I need to do today is clean the playroom downstairs 254 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:46,520 and have you girls keep upstairs tidy as well and so she's like okay and then she ran off and I 255 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:51,800 started getting ready I was feeling so proud of myself for just like being on top of it and like 256 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,440 oh it was eight in the morning and I was dressed and I was getting you know like I was on top of 257 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:03,960 it today yeah and then of course she comes running in and goes mom mom I have a surprise for you 258 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:12,040 I'm thinking okay I mean usually her surprises are like oh I tidied up the toys in the living 259 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,200 room or I helped my sister put on her shoe you know they're usually good surprises 260 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,520 so I'm not you know I'm like great thank you I'm gonna finish getting ready and then I would love 261 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:26,520 to see your surprise yeah and then she leaves and then I keep getting ready and then she comes back 262 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:33,560 again she's like are you ready yeah I'm ready to show you my surprise and I'm like well okay um not 263 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:40,360 yet just give me one minute she's like it's either gonna be a good surprise but it could be a bad 264 00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:47,080 surprise oh no I hope it's a good surprise because you I don't for the most part they're good 265 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:52,200 surprises she hardly ever gives me bad ones so I'm like okay just give me a minute but she was so 266 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:57,000 excited to tell me so I'm like for sure she's done something great because she's so excited 267 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:02,520 so excited finished getting ready and I call out and I'm like hey Shannon I'm ready for your surprise 268 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:07,880 and she's like I'm downstairs like oh did she start cleaning because I told her I really wanted 269 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:13,000 to clean and that would be like so sweet of her because you know she's so nice and I come down 270 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:19,080 the stairs and the door of the playroom is closed and I'm like let's never close wonder why she 271 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:28,280 closed it and I open the door and we have this it's like a shelving unit that's like steps that you 272 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:37,000 can store toys inside and I don't know if you've seen them yet and so as I open the door she is 273 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:44,360 standing proudly on the top part of this cabinet and all of the buckets have been taken out and 274 00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:53,800 dumped all over the floor oh she just looks at me with pure joy I've destroyed the place 275 00:26:54,360 --> 00:27:04,200 just so proud of herself and I'm like Shannon oh lord I wanted to clean and she's like are you so 276 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:13,320 proud of my surprise I'm not proud of your surprise oh it's not a good surprise but you know I feel 277 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,360 like that's just what it's like having kids yes you feel like you're on top of it and then they 278 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:24,920 have to do something to show you no mom you're not on top of it I'm in charge today and let me 279 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:31,080 show you how I feel about that so I mean I love that story oh Shannon they're fabulous 280 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:40,680 but man they can be tough sometimes oh goodness oh she was helping wasn't she yeah 281 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:46,920 yeah and she did tell me she did tell me she's like I'll help you clean it up it's okay and then I'm 282 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:52,440 like okay that would be nice and as I'm cleaning she's like just in a minute and then she'd like 283 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,000 pull more stuff out as I'm cleaning and I'm like Shannon we're trying to clean up and she's like 284 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:02,360 yes but I'm making a soup and then she would like keep making a soup and then eventually we got the 285 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:07,880 whole room clean and she's like see didn't I do such a good job cleaning that up mom and I was 286 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:14,840 like I did a good job cleaning that up thank you you did a great job making more mess and making 287 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:22,840 so it was okay oh my gosh I love that yeah you literally you never know what you're gonna get 288 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,640 you literally you never know what you're gonna get do you like I feel like that it's sort of like 289 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,440 the story like you know when you're about to go to work and your car doesn't start like I feel like 290 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,520 that's parenting all the time but with your children like there's always something just gonna 291 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:43,240 get thrown at you yeah 100% and it's always when you least expect it when you think you've got it 292 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:48,120 that's when it yes yeah it's like it lulls you into this false sense of security it's like 293 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:54,440 hmm no now we're gonna wreck it yeah oh god and then they keep coming they're just more and more 294 00:28:54,440 --> 00:29:06,840 you know yeah oh man it wears you out doesn't it 295 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:14,200 so 296 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,240 you're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom I was so 297 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,560 do you have family nearby where you are like to help out with the girls 298 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:34,920 I do yes so um my I have my mom and my stepdad and my two younger sisters and they live 299 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:42,120 about 30 40 minute drive from our house so they're really close and then my husband all of his family 300 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:50,360 live in Utah and so most of them are about an hour away but still close when we need them so yeah 301 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:58,200 oh that's great isn't it yeah yeah we've got good support there yeah that's comes in handy my mom's 302 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:05,560 the best what does your mom think now like because you said before she really encouraged your like 303 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,320 when you made things when you were little like is she like look at what you do now and is like 304 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:15,160 super proud of that you've been able to keep doing it oh yeah I mean I think so she's all she I mean 305 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:22,840 is she allowed to say that I'm doing terrible I don't know she never does not to you she's she I 306 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:28,520 mean anything I do she's like oh I think that's amazing and of course growing up I think I don't 307 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:34,120 know if it was my last years of high school or when I was in college I painted a few paintings 308 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:39,560 for fun and she bought them she was the first person to really buy some of my paintings and 309 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,800 I'm sure it was for way more than they were actually worth but it made me feel so good inside 310 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,920 that someone wanted to purchase my art instead of just look at it and I think that really that 311 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:55,240 really helped and so lots of times when I'm feeling down on myself I can uh I'll give her a ring and 312 00:30:55,240 --> 00:31:03,160 ask for her advice or for her her love and support because she's more than happy to give it um yeah 313 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:10,040 today my Shannon again uh I decided to ask her because I was like wouldn't it be nice for the 314 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:16,920 podcast to have like this really sweet story of like asking my kids like oh like how do you feel 315 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:22,360 about mom and her art and what kind of moment or am I you know because yeah yeah I just thought 316 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:28,520 oh it'd be so nice and so I asked Shannon and I was like what kind of mom do you think I am like 317 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:34,840 do you you know I was like am I doing a good job you know kind of yeah she looks at me she goes 318 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:41,880 you're just a really frustrated mom all the time that was not what I was going for Shannon oh 319 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:50,200 my gosh maybe she didn't understand it so I'm like what about like that I do art and that I'm kind of 320 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,840 creative and I I teach you things do you like do you like doing art with me do you like my art 321 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,400 what do you think of that and she's like well to be honest the last one you did I didn't really like 322 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:07,640 and I just didn't want to tell you because you seem to really like it thank you oh my gosh 323 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:15,640 she will forever be honest she's such a character isn't she yeah she's so funny she's so funny 324 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,760 I feel like we need to have like a section of this podcast dedicated to Shannon she's like earned her place 325 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:31,000 yeah oh I love her yeah but that's the thing like I love I love this this idea that you know 326 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:36,600 we are as mothers we have this mothering role but we still have all these things 327 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:41,720 that we do apart from that and that we did do before we had kids so it doesn't just stop you 328 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,360 know all of a sudden we have a baby and this part of our lives just disappears into thin air so 329 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:51,880 I think it's I don't know that holding on to that part of yourself and that identity 330 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:57,240 I think is so important and Shannon's obviously seen it to be able to give her critique 331 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:07,400 she gave me a piece of advice as well today where she was like it would be better if I could do it 332 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,520 with you but sometimes you don't let me and I don't like that so I think she just wants to be more 333 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:21,000 involved and yeah you know which is easy to say a little bit more difficult to do with you know 334 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:28,040 yeah you're doing these um very detailed and yes yeah oh goodness 335 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:51,480 now it sounds like a lot of fun in your house it is it's a bit of a madhouse but I wouldn't change it 336 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:13,000 so online I noticed that you you sell like your prints and that sort of stuff do you have um 337 00:34:13,720 --> 00:34:17,640 and like you mentioned about your mum your mum purchasing you some of your early stuff that you 338 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:24,040 made do you sort of have this idea about the value of your your art or the value of your 339 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:32,040 your creativity that it's dependent on what you get for it or that society can still value art 340 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:38,920 even if it doesn't have a monetary value attached to it um that's a good question I think 341 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:47,480 I don't know I feel like deep in me I'm a little bit of a people pleaser so I feel like when 342 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:54,760 when I do sell a work of art I get very excited especially because I don't sell very many I'm I 343 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:59,400 don't have a whole lot of time and when I do do commissions they usually take me anywhere from 344 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,720 like six to eight months to complete because I don't have a lot of time to work on them so 345 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:15,160 those I do like I don't know it does make me happy however I do feel like um almost more so when I 346 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:22,280 someone sees a work that I've done or when they purchase it and then they tell me how they feel 347 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:30,440 about it like it makes it 10 times better like I would much rather have someone look at my work 348 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:35,800 and say that really affected me or changed my life or really touched me then I would sell the 349 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,680 work to someone that I don't even know if they appreciate it if that makes sense so yeah so I do 350 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:50,040 I do feel like there's um I don't know there's a lot of worth in just the work without it being 351 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:59,960 sold however it does you know I do like when it gets sold yeah yeah yeah no I could like a lady 352 00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:05,720 I spoke to the other day um put it really well said like as artists we sort of exist to be able 353 00:36:05,720 --> 00:36:12,440 to share and and like whatever things that have influenced or things we're going through that we 354 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:18,840 put into our work it's so lovely if someone at the other end can relate to that in their own way um 355 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:36,120 and then if they tell you about it that's even better you know yeah 100% agree with that yeah 356 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,120 yeah 357 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:56,600 did you notice after you had your girls after you became a mum that what influenced your work changed 358 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:06,520 I mean yes yes it did there was an influence however I also feel like I have so many ideas 359 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,840 of things that would show that a lot more I feel like in the work that's on my instagram 360 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:19,000 there isn't a lot that's child related or any I don't know you know what I'm talking about 361 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:25,080 anything like that however I have like I do have a picture of my girls that I've started painting 362 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:32,920 that I just love and I love the idea of kids when they like discover new things like my 363 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:38,440 littlest Millie here the other day found her toes and we she was just sitting just sitting in the 364 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:43,400 bumbo just in like a little seat on my counter just playing with her toes and she was just so 365 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:49,240 full of wonder and I'm like that would be just the perfect little like little picture of just 366 00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:55,320 her toes and her her cuteness and there's I don't know just when like kids go outside and they see 367 00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:01,720 I don't know birds or something my my middle child Oakley the other day we were on a drive 368 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:07,080 and she was like birds I see birds there's two of them and she was just so thrilled at the idea of 369 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:14,280 seeing birds I'm like I would love to capture just that happiness and that wonder of that just that 370 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:21,400 that excitement so I feel like somewhere down the line there's going to be some works of mine that 371 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:29,720 encompass just childhood wonder because I really I really enjoy that and I think also with some of my 372 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,840 my religious pieces I have a few of those that I would like to work on and just to kind of share 373 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:40,440 that with my girls and have that feeling in our household and share that with the world too would 374 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:48,760 be would be really nice so yeah absolutely I feel like that because like I said I worked in in early 375 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,960 childhood for a long time and that moment when kids discover something it's just this just when 376 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,360 you were telling me about it then I was getting that that beautiful like warm feeling and almost 377 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:04,040 like goosebumps like it's just I think as adults we just we've seen it all we take it all for granted 378 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:09,960 and then when you're brought back to those minuscule tiny moments like toes you just it blows your mind 379 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:17,640 and just it's wonderful yeah I love it I think we need to have more moments like that where we just 380 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:27,800 stop and look at our toes and go oh my god the world's amazing yeah especially in this busy busy world 381 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,560 yeah and that's it isn't it and then you know we've got all these distractions and things that 382 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:37,480 are there to take our time up and you can we can sort of lose track of what's just you know the most 383 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,400 important stuff no it's right in front of us and sometimes we don't see it 384 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,200 sorry I'm getting all philosophical now 385 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,440 by the way I love the way you said grand before because my Irish friends say grand all the time 386 00:39:54,440 --> 00:40:00,360 oh that's grand they say oh I love it probably my mom and me 387 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,360 yeah no I love that 388 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,360 I love that 389 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:09,800 so have you got any pieces that you're working on anything you want to share about future works or 390 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:33,560 anything at all so I mean I have really a lot of work to do and I'm really excited about it and 391 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:40,520 I'm looking forward to it I'm looking forward to getting to do some of my own books or anything at all 392 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:50,200 so I mean I have my one painting that you can see on my Instagram of a pioneer lady and for 393 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:58,360 for me with that painting I really wanted to kind of symbolize the strength of women and just um 394 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:06,840 the Mormon pioneers. I won't go into detail about it, but basically they came across the 395 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:13,400 plains in hand carts during all types of weather and faced lots of hardships to arrive in Utah and 396 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:22,280 eventually, you know, make their city and live and, what's the word I'm looking for, 397 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:30,920 have their religion as they wanted to. But there's so many stories about just how strong those 398 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:36,600 women were and what they went through. And I mean, they had children and family members who passed 399 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:44,840 away and there was, I don't know, there's just a lot for me that I look up to in the pioneer women. 400 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:49,480 And I just wanted to, I don't know, I just wanted to kind of capture that in a painting. And I don't 401 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:56,680 think I'm there yet. I still feel like there's a few things that I need to add or do, but that is 402 00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:03,160 the main one that I'm working on is just, I want to paint a strong, powerful woman who's been through 403 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:10,840 a lot, but also knows she's doing it for a purpose. So that's my main one. And then, 404 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:18,200 I don't know, I had an idea the other day from a friend to do with my kids. She showed me 405 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:24,760 someone painting a little, one of their little kids stuffed animals and all of my girls have a 406 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:30,360 little stuffed animal that they just adore. In fact, they're kind of my eldest elder too, 407 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:34,600 they're kind of torn to pieces. They get chewed on and they were loved. I mean, honestly, 408 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:39,480 they're a little bit gross for anyone except for my girls, right? I'm like, how sweet would that be 409 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:46,680 just to have all three of them on a shelf just to represent my children? And we'll see, but 410 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,800 you know, got to get through this other one first. 411 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,880 That's the thing when you've got so many ideas, it's like literally, 412 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,840 yeah, you've got to actually have the time to do all these ideas. 413 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:03,320 Yeah, well, I have a page in my sketchbook of like, oh, this is something I want to paint, 414 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,960 this is something I want to paint or draw. And there's a whole long list of them. I will never 415 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:15,320 be out of ideas. I just need a bit more time. Yeah, not short of ideas. I love that. 416 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:44,280 Is it important to you that they see you as more than in your mothering role? And I don't say just 417 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:49,080 a mum, I've got to stop saying that because we're not just a mum. But yeah, more of them the mothering 418 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:59,880 role. Yes, I think anytime you can show your kids how you can be your own person, but also 419 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:11,400 be a mum at the same time. I have an aunt who growing up, she was also a young mother and then 420 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,800 also did art. And I came to stay with her for a little while and she showed me her portfolio. 421 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,680 And I was just amazed at her skill and her talent and how she was still able to, 422 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:27,400 you know, paint and draw and do the things she loved and also still have kids because I was like, 423 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:32,760 that's what I want to be doing. And so it was nice to have someone to look up to, to be like, 424 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:38,280 no, she can do it, I can do it too. And so I think it is good. Even if my children 425 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:45,080 don't end up into art or don't want to be creative in something, I think just showing them that 426 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:50,280 you don't have to be just one thing in your life. You can be a multitude of things, I think is 427 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:55,640 important. Yeah, that's very well said. I like that. Because I think it doesn't have to be a 428 00:44:55,640 --> 00:45:00,360 thing in particular, like you said, doesn't, they don't have to take it on, but it's, it's saying 429 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:07,080 that mums can do lots and lots of different things and things that don't necessarily revolve around 430 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:13,560 that mothering role. Yeah, for sure. As I was, I don't know what question it was, as I was going 431 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:19,480 through some stuff, I got thinking about myself, I think it was talking about like identity maybe, 432 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:25,960 and just that there's my one aunt always tells me, she's like, there's a time in a season that, 433 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:31,480 you know, right now you're raising your children and that's a beautiful, wonderful thing. And then 434 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,480 later you're going to have an amazing time doing your art or whatever it is you'd like to do. 435 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:42,920 And so I got thinking about how I sometimes feel, feel bad that, or like feel like I'm missing out 436 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,400 because I haven't gotten myself out there. Like you scroll through Instagram or social media and 437 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:53,240 you see like all of these moms doing it and more like accomplishing what you want to, but, or even 438 00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:59,240 people that aren't moms just, you know, being out there and doing things. And I think sometimes I 439 00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:05,400 get down on myself thinking like, Oh man, like, did I, did I mess up somewhere? Did I, you know, 440 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:12,120 did I have kids too early? But then I realized like, I'm not, I'm not ruining my chances by having, 441 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:17,720 by having kids. Cause there's still going to be, there's still going to be time. And I heard this 442 00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:26,600 analogy that it was, it was talking about how being creative is kind of like exercise. And it's like, 443 00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:35,000 it's preferable every day to exercise. I mean, if we could, it would be really great, wouldn't it? 444 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:42,200 But it's not like a must has to be done. You have to exercise. And if you went to the doctor and 445 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:48,440 you said, I am so sorry. It's been two years since I've exercised. I'm just going to quit because I 446 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:56,520 can't do it anymore. I've forgotten how to do it. I'm done. Like, I'm sorry. I've given up. I can't 447 00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:03,480 do it. No doctor is going to be like, you're right. You haven't done, you haven't exercised in two 448 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:08,600 years or five years or 10 years. You can't exercise anymore. It will not be good for you. I mean, 449 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:14,120 that would just be, that would be ridiculous. So it's the same way with, with your craft, whatever 450 00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:20,920 it is that you choose to do. Like it doesn't matter if you've had a 10 year break, if you said, 451 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:25,800 Hey, I have children and I want to raise them and I haven't done it in 10 years. You can always start 452 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:33,720 back again. You can always do a little thing. Even just five minutes here and there, it's only going 453 00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:39,960 to make you better. It's not going to be any worse for you than just leaving it behind. 454 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:47,320 Cause I feel like at one point when I had my first daughter, I didn't paint for a really long time 455 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:54,440 because I just couldn't find time for it. And I just, you know, it's difficult because you're 456 00:47:54,440 --> 00:48:00,440 getting used to a whole new life with a little baby. And I thought to myself, is this it? Should 457 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:08,680 I be, should I be done? Like, should I give it up? And that's just silly. I eventually learned like 458 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:16,360 I go crazy if I don't paint. Like I, I can't not be creative. And when I try, I just, it's like, 459 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,680 I'm about to explode. I get in this big bubble and then I'm like, I give up and just everything, 460 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:25,720 you know, it kind of all goes to pot. And then I just, I spend all day painting and 461 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:30,920 the house becomes a mess. And my husband wonders what happens. And I'm like, I'm sorry. It had been 462 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:39,960 too long. He's so nice. He understands that some days that's how it's going to be. But anyway, 463 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,800 but yeah, I just really liked that. It's like, it's just like exercise. Even if you've left it 464 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:49,960 for a long time, you could always go back to it. And so what there will be days when you'll get 465 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:54,120 you'll get, you won't do anything, but then there'll be other days where you'll get in the zone and 466 00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:59,160 get lots of work done and it'll be great. Yeah. No, I love that. That's really good. I've never 467 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:04,280 heard anyone put it quite like that. That's really good. Love that. And I think it's so true. And a 468 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:10,200 lot of moms say this, if, if they're not filled up, you know, the cups not filled up, the metaphor, 469 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:14,920 you know, you can't pour from an empty cup. If you haven't done the things that make you regulated 470 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:20,680 and fulfilled, then you're not going to go out into your family and project, you know, perhaps 471 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:25,800 the person that you want to be. So it is so important to do these things for ourselves. And 472 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:31,080 it just makes for an all rounder, you know, more harmonious household, I guess. 473 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:40,520 Until Shannon does something in the play. I've just got a vision in my head of your daughter. 474 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:47,240 I just love that. Oh, I do. Little Jim. Thank you so much for coming on Hannah. I loved your chat 475 00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:53,480 today. It's been gorgeous meeting little Miss Millie here. Hey, little darling. Thank you for 476 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:59,320 having me. I feel really special that you let me join. I was going through all your podcasts and 477 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:03,240 listening to all of these other wonderful women and their stories. And I'm like, I don't think I 478 00:50:03,240 --> 00:50:09,960 have anything to add on these people. Oh my gosh. No, you have so much to add. They have such good 479 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:17,640 information. Oh, no, no, it was never feel like that. You've got so much to add. And honestly, 480 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:25,240 that imposter syndrome too, you know, oh, yes. Yeah. Kick it to the curb. There you go. Bye bye. 481 00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:33,560 Imposter syndrome. Yeah. No, good on you. Thanks again. Thanks for your company today. If you've 482 00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:39,560 enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to 483 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:45,480 the podcast or even sharing it with a friend you think might be interested. If you or someone you 484 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:50,040 know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the 485 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:57,720 show notes. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alem Joe, which is my new age 486 00:50:57,720 --> 00:51:03,080 ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. 487 00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:09,160 If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. I'll catch you again 488 00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:13,400 next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Jenn Book Haselswerdt US educator, playwright + dramaturgist S4Ep101 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week on the podcast is Jenn Book Haselswerdt, a multi passionate creative and mum of 2 from Missouri USA. Jen is an Arts integration teacher, playwright and dramaturgist , but also enjoys doing all kinds of creating, from pottery to knitting and baking. Jenn was first drawn to the theatre through 'Annie' the musical. She was a professional through College, had a short time as a professional actor but then realised that she wanted to teach and write in the theatre. Jenn holds an Undergraduate Degree in Theatre, and a Masters Degree in Theatre, History and Criticism. She works with companies on new play development, reading scripts and doing research into the histories behind plays. She also works with a gallery to teach about the history of the art pieces. **Jenn's episode contains mentions of anxiety and depression** If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a Mum podcast where I, Alison Newman, a singer, songwriter and Aussie mum of two, 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:19,000 enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered while trying to be a mum and continue to create. 3 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:28,000 You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work's been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms 4 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:34,000 and we also strain to territories such as the patriarchy, feminism and capitalism. 5 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:42,000 You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch 6 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:47,000 and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. 7 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:55,000 I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast but if at any time you're concerned about your mental health 8 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:02,000 I urge you to talk to those around you, reach out to health professionals or seek out resources online. 9 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:10,000 I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, alisonnewman.net slash podcast. 10 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:18,000 The Art of Being a Mum would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on as being the Boanduk people. 11 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:30,000 I'm working on land that was never seeded. 12 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:37,000 Hello and welcome to another edition of the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me from wherever you are in the world. 13 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:43,000 It is a pleasure to have you. My guest this week on the podcast is Jen Book-Hasselswert. 14 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:48,000 Jen is a multi-passionate creative and a mum of two from Baltimore in the USA. 15 00:01:48,000 --> 00:02:00,000 Jen is an arts integration teacher, a playwright and a dramaturgist but also enjoys doing all kinds of creating from pottery to knitting and baking. 16 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,000 Jen was first drawn to the theatre through the musical Annie. 17 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:15,000 She was an actor through college and had a short time as a professional actor but then realised that she actually wanted to teach and write in the theatre instead. 18 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:22,000 Jen holds an undergraduate degree in the theatre and a masters degree in theatre, history and criticism. 19 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:30,000 She works with companies on new play development, reading scripts and doing research into the histories behind plays. 20 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:36,000 She also works with a gallery to teach about the history of various art pieces. 21 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:41,000 Please be aware today's episode contains brief mentions of anxiety and depression. 22 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:56,000 I hope you enjoy episode number 101. Thanks again for tuning in. 23 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:01,000 Thank you so much, Jen. It's such a pleasure to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you for coming on. 24 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,000 Thanks for having me. 25 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:09,000 Such a pleasure. And we were just chatting before we hit record that I'm in your future right now. 26 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:15,000 It's Saturday at 1pm in Australia and what time did you say it was over there? 27 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,000 It is Friday night at 10.30pm. 28 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:23,000 There you go. Well, we're still here. The future is still guffing. 29 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,000 It's so bizarre to think like that. 30 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:34,000 I always love on New Year's Eve when, because we're one of the first, apart from Auckland, Sydney is one of the main first ones to go. 31 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:40,000 And I love just sitting there through the day and just watching all the other countries go through their big fireworks. 32 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:48,000 And it feels so weird when you're sitting in bright sunshine on a really hot day and you're watching people in the snow in the dark. 33 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,000 It is so cool. I love it. 34 00:03:50,000 --> 00:04:05,000 Well, I have to tell you, my son is 12 years old and he is really excited that I'm talking to someone in Australia right now because a video game that he was really looking forward to came out today. 35 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:11,000 And all the YouTubers who he knows have gone to Australia so that they could get the video game first. 36 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,000 Oh, wow. 37 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,000 And record all of their YouTube. 38 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,000 Yeah, like reactions and what game is that? Do you know what it's called? 39 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,000 It is Tears of the Kingdom. 40 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,000 Yeah, right. 41 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,000 It is the new Zelda game. 42 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,000 Oh, yes, yes. I know the one. 43 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:35,000 Yeah, yes. That is a very popular. That's been going for a long time too, hasn't it, Zelda? 44 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:45,000 I mean, yeah, I'm I'm 43. And like I remember playing a Zelda game back on 8-bit Nintendo back in the early 90s. 45 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:53,000 Yeah, yeah. Good old Zelda. She's still going. Good on her. 46 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,000 So what part of America are you in, Jane? 47 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:05,000 I am in Missouri, which is in kind of like the middle of the country. 48 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:15,000 Kind of fraught right now. But I'm from Baltimore, which is in Maryland close to the East Coast. 49 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:16,000 Oh, yes. 50 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,000 Yeah, I was from the Atlantic Ocean. 51 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,000 You would be amazed the amount of people I've had on here from Maryland. 52 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:31,000 I can't say it right. I say Maryland. Yeah, I reckon I've had three, three episodes with people from like Baltimore or near Baltimore. 53 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:36,000 Yeah, there's something going on in that part of the world that's just coming to me. 54 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:42,000 We embrace kitsch in a way in Baltimore that like no no other place does. 55 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:46,000 And so I think we kind of breed arts loving people. 56 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,000 Yeah, I love that. It's so cool. 57 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:54,000 Yeah, and I'm starting to get better with my geography of America. 58 00:05:54,000 --> 00:06:00,000 So yeah, I appreciate when you say you're sort of in the middle. That's my mental thing. 59 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,000 Yep. Yep. 60 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:06,000 So my parents live in Maryland. My brother lives in Los Angeles, California. 61 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:16,000 And so I'm about 1500 miles from each. From each of them. Yeah. Yeah. That's a beautiful visual. That makes sense. Yes. 62 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:23,000 But I still forget which side is Seattle on the West Coast. It is. Yeah. 63 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,000 Sometimes I get confused because New York's on the East Coast, isn't it? 64 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,000 Yes. That's cool. 65 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:33,000 And Seattle's in Washington State and Washington, D.C. is on the East. 66 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,000 How did you manage that? 67 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:43,000 There are too many, you know, wanting to name things after the same exact people. 68 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:48,000 Why there, you know, I'm in Columbia, Missouri, and there's Colombias all over the place. 69 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,000 Everywhere. Yeah. Yep. Yep. 70 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:57,000 Oh, there you go. It's interesting. I love all these things I get to learn. It's all fun. 71 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:02,000 Actually, when I was a kid, I used to play this game. It was called Where in the World is Carmen San Diego. 72 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:09,000 And that was one of my favorite games. Yes. And I used to love like I liked that one more, the original more than the time travel one. 73 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:15,000 It was something I did like the time travel. But yeah, that just made me realize all these amazing places in the world. 74 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:21,000 And I think that was the start of me being fascinated with I had to get pen pals so I could talk to people. 75 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,000 And then my fascination with the weather, what it's like in other places like I don't know. 76 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:30,000 It's built from that that game. It's opening my eyes to it. Yeah. 77 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:36,000 It's the only way I know nation's capitals. Yes. Yeah. That's so true, isn't it? 78 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:44,000 Hey, on weather, what what's it like there at the moment? What's your right now? It is humid and muggy. 79 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:53,000 Yeah, it is. We had a really cold snap and very late cold snap with the garden. 80 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,000 Gardens kind of froze up and none of the plants knew what to do. Yeah. 81 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:05,000 But now it's 85 degrees and very, very humid. I'm just going to work that into my conversion. 82 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:11,000 Yeah, I'm still I'm still I don't have a match. Oh, yeah, that's nice. 83 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:16,000 Yeah, that's warm. Yeah. But muggies. Yeah. Yeah. Make it a bit uncomfortable. 84 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:22,000 No, not muggy. Yeah. There we go. All right. Enough of my random questions. 85 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:36,000 I have nothing to do with anything. I just indulge myself. I love it. Oh, dear. 86 00:08:52,000 --> 00:09:02,000 So you're obviously a mother, Jen. And I love on your your Instagram how you say you like like the coziness of creating things that are cozy. 87 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:08,000 And so you do all sorts of different things. So, yeah, share with us what you like to create. 88 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Sure. So I stole the phrase from this influencer named Deanna Joy, which is multi-passionate creative, 89 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:25,000 which I think sounds so much better than dilettante. So I my first love is Twitter. 90 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:33,000 But when we're talking about the the creating I do with my hands, I love baking. 91 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:39,000 I love pottery. I love quilting and other sewing. 92 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:46,000 And kind of all those things that make you feel warm and cozy. Yeah. Now, I'm sorry, I cut you off. 93 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:53,000 What did you say your first love was? Well, my first love was theater and still is. Oh, magnificent. 94 00:09:53,000 --> 00:10:02,000 Oh, we're going to get on very well. So, yeah. So straight theater or musical theater? 95 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:15,000 Mostly straight because my voice was never well, my voice is OK, but my dance skills were never at a place where I could. 96 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:20,000 Nine years of ballet didn't do anything for me. Yeah. 97 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:32,000 But yeah, so straight theater. I actually have my undergraduate degree in theater and master's degree in theater history and criticism. 98 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:44,000 And I work with companies on new play development and reading scripts and doing research into the histories behind plays and things like that, which is 99 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:54,000 really the most nerdy fun you can possibly have. But that just sounds so fascinating, like getting to delve into stuff in such a deep level. 100 00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:03,000 And you said criticism. So that means you can be like a proper critic and give like proper critiques on plays and things. 101 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:24,000 Yeah. Yeah. And my sort of my sort of outlook on things, which informs the way I teach to is, you know, saying I like or I don't like really doesn't help anyone in their creation of theater and their creation of whatever. 102 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:35,000 I also work with a gallery in town to do similar work with some of their gallery shows teaching about the history of the art pieces. 103 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:53,000 But to ask questions about the creation and ask questions that might lead to more questions that might lead to playing with what answers might be is just such a fun collaborative way to work that playwriting doesn't have to be 104 00:11:53,000 --> 00:12:01,000 a solo endeavor. And, you know, you can it's called a play for a reason. It should be fun. 105 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:37,000 This particular guy in Australia, his name's Peter Gers and he's very, I don't know, well known in South Australia, not probably the rest of Australia and certainly not internationally, but he's a theater critic. 106 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:56,000 And over the years, he's he's he's made it. He has a radio show and he used to be an actor. And he basically I remember him saying once about critiquing theater, that there was absolutely no point in belittling people or saying, you know, they did a terrible job. 107 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:12,000 You know, it's all about recognizing the amount of effort they've gone to, what their intention was behind the piece. Maybe the delivery wasn't, you know, quite what they had hoped or, you know, beyond the level of what he might have expected or whatever. 108 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:22,000 But there's no, there's absolutely no point in just bashing people, you know, when they're having a go. Is that something you could sort of relate to? 109 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:27,000 Absolutely. I think I was taking a professional development one time. 110 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:45,000 And there was an article that we read about the power of positivity in working with something like this with with art criticism, and I absolutely burst into tears in the middle of class, because I had always been called, I don't know if you do you know the movie 111 00:13:45,000 --> 00:14:04,000 Pollyanna? Oh yes. Kaylee Mills, like the 60s or 70s. So I'd always been called a Pollyanna because I am very positive about things. And it had never, you know, being a teenager in the 90s, when, you know, it was cool to be aloof and ironic. 112 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:20,000 Yeah, but being a positive person was really difficult and being positive about things, you know, people kind of looked at it as though you didn't have a critical bone. That to be critical meant to be nasty. 113 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:34,000 And, you know, darn it, I was 15 years old, I like the Spice Girls and I wanted to be able to like the Spice Girls. Yeah, yeah, you know, but I couldn't. 114 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:55,000 You know, reading this article about the power of positivity just struck such a chord with me that it should be about buoying up what's good about things and striving to make those things that aren't at that level, to that level, rather than bringing everything down. 115 00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:09,000 Yes, yeah, that's a really good way of saying it, isn't it? It's like you're, I don't know what the word is, it's this constructive criticism, I guess. It's things that can help people to make changes or, you know, look at things in a different way. 116 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:21,000 It's not just a straight comment that's, you know, with no possibility for any further, anything. It's like, a statement that's not helpful at all. 117 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:37,000 I think like when we're talking about, you know, being, you know, so criticism doesn't have to be critical, right? So like, when I'm working with a playwright on developing a new script or a new piece of theater, you know, who cares what I like? 118 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:51,000 What I like isn't necessarily going to be the same thing that an artistic director is going to like, or that the lady in row six is going to like, or the man in row seven, they're all going to like different things. 119 00:15:51,000 --> 00:16:09,000 So what's the purpose of saying I like this or I don't like that? But what we can do is say, hey, I noticed that in Act One, your character says such and such, but that never comes back in Act Two. It seemed really important in Act One. 120 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:17,000 Was it important in Act One? And being able to ask those questions to help structure that piece. 121 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:26,000 And play, you know, I keep coming back to the word play. Play around with those answers and hopefully ask more questions. 122 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:41,000 You know, it's kind of like a, I guess, like, I mean, this is a person who knows nothing making this statement, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels to me like it's like a book editor kind of like you're looking at with eyes outside of who wrote it. 123 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:54,000 And you can pick up stuff like, like you said, like, is there a theme that seemed important then didn't get continued or something come up all of a sudden or where did that come from? Like, there's no background to this, whatever. 124 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:59,000 That's kind of, I guess, a layman's way of describing it. 125 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:12,000 For sure. So like, so the it's called like Dramaturge, which is the same as it's the German word for playwright. 126 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:34,000 And so, but we, I mean, I do write plays, but when I'm Dramaturging, that's not being the playwright. And so I kind of, so someone who practices metallurgy shapes metal into something beautiful. So someone who practices dramaturgy helps shape drama into something beautiful. 127 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,000 There you go. 128 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,000 That's so cool. I love that. 129 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,000 I learned a new word today too. 130 00:17:43,000 --> 00:18:08,000 That's awesome. 131 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:16,000 Do you recall being a child and just like how you got into your love of theater? Where did that come from? 132 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:39,000 I, that's a great question. I remember going to, I remember whether it was watching the movie Annie or going to see a play, but I remember that it was Annie specifically and looking at the children on stage and going, I could do that. 133 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:46,000 And so I started going to theater camps when I was five. 134 00:18:46,000 --> 00:19:06,000 And, you know, just kind of being in plays and my theater camp that I grew up with was also at a swim club and did kind of sports stuff too because it's trying to be all things to all people. 135 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,000 And then John Waters movie was filmed there, speaking of Baltimore. 136 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,000 So that was super fun. 137 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:26,000 But, you know, they were very specific that we had all of us had to take music and dance and make the sets and the props for the play. 138 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,000 So kind of, kind of, you know, well rounded in that way. 139 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:48,000 And then I was in all the plays in middle school, which is sixth to eighth grade here. Yeah. And then in when I was going into ninth grade, a new school was opening up that was arts focused. 140 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:54,000 And so I went there. And so I've been a theater major since the time I was 13 years old. 141 00:19:54,000 --> 00:20:03,000 And John never told us that there was anything beyond you could be an actor or you could be a director. 142 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:13,000 I mean, I guess I knew in my head that you could make scenery and things like that. But really like when you were studying, you're either going to be an actor or a director. 143 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:29,000 And I was like, you know, with acting all the way through, you know, graduating from college. And then I was a professional actor for a hot minute. 144 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:49,000 And I had always wanted to do and what I've been saying since maybe second grade was I want to teach. I want to write. I want to do theater. And when I found dramaturgy and also teaching. 145 00:20:49,000 --> 00:21:09,000 I'm an arts integration teacher for my full time job. Those things. That's what it is. It's you know, dramaturgy is using teaching to fulfill the arts and arts and teaching arts integration is using the arts to fulfill education. 146 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:21,000 And so those things really. It's what I wanted to do since I was in second grade. Yeah. And it was like, it was just. 147 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,000 You just hadn't discovered that that was a thing yet. 148 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:45,000 And it was actually my roommate when I was 22. She was she told us that she was leaving to move to another state because she got literary management as dramaturgy internship at a theater out of state. 149 00:21:45,000 --> 00:22:01,000 And at the same time, one of my friends from high school got a gig on Broadway in the show Mamma Mia. Oh, wow. And I was jealous of my roommate, but wanted to congratulate my friend who was going to be an actress on Broadway. 150 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:09,000 Yeah. I thought, wait a minute. Yeah, perhaps I need to examine my life. Yeah. 151 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:25,000 There you go. Oh, how cool is that? Yeah. And that's the thing. Like I found in. I don't know this all these little worlds that you have no idea about. You know, like in talking to people just through this podcast, like discovering all these other things you can do. 152 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:42,000 If you know you want to be involved in art, you know, you don't. Sorry. There's not just, you know, the actual painter. There's all these other things you can be. And one of my favorite chats I've had on here was with an art historian, which I found so fascinating. 153 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:59,000 I was like, I feel like I've missed my calling because I love art. I don't make it very well, but I'm really fascinated in the history behind things and the symbolism and the imagery and how they, I don't know, express their ideas through different ways and all the different styles of art. 154 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:14,000 Yeah. So this is really cool that I'm learning something. I bet you there's no one listening that has ever heard the word dramaturgy before. So, hey, and if you have, send me a message on my Instagram and I'll give you a prize or something because this is cool. 155 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:40,000 Yeah. 156 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:59,000 I'm going completely off path now that I know this stuff. Whoa, that I love it. I love it. What are your like favorite plays or things that have influenced you the most like actors or themes or anything? Just share with me things that you love about theater. 157 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:15,000 Well, I always, I think about musicals. I always think about musicals first because they are musicals are what I don't know captures everything. I don't know. I love Sondheim. Stephen Sondheim's work. 158 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,000 Into the Woods is my favorite. 159 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,000 The first act of Sunday in the Park with George. 160 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,000 The second act is not my favorite. 161 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,000 The first act is great. 162 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:41,000 I think that there is something in the way that he works his lyrics and music together. 163 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:46,000 Being the person who who is able to do both. 164 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:57,000 And I think his command of rhythms are are amazing. I felt very 165 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:10,000 content is not the right word, vindicated I felt vindicated when I was listening to an interview with him and the interviewer asked, you know, how do you come up with your rhymes and he said I use a rhyming dictionary. 166 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,000 I was like oh me too. I felt I was so excited. 167 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,000 So he's, he's wonderful. 168 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,000 His work is wonderful. 169 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:27,000 Little Shop of Horrors is another favorite of mine, Howard Ashman and Alan Menken. 170 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,000 You know before they ever wrote the Little Mermaid. 171 00:25:32,000 --> 00:26:01,000 Their work adapting and when I write plays I do adaptations, mostly their work adapting just this weird little B horror movie into this amazing, kitschy work of musical theater is incredible and there's a moment in the movie where Rick Moranis, 172 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:21,000 he does a little riff, because he's you know very nerdy, the character, and he goes, I don't know, I don't know, and his voice just changes into this amazing passionate singer. 173 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:26,000 And being able to pull that out is is wild. 174 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:34,000 I am a big, I've always been a big fan of Wendy Wasserstein, who passed away. 175 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:49,000 Oh gosh, probably almost 20 years ago now but her work was one of the first, her, she and Carol Churchill I think were the first two sort of feminist playwrights that I had read. 176 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,000 And so their work was really influential on me. 177 00:26:53,000 --> 00:27:14,000 And there's some fantastic stuff going on in small theaters. Nowadays I really wish that Broadway would go back to championing new works and not reviving the old ones I will die on the hill that Oklahoma is a subversive piece of theater. 178 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,000 It really is. 179 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:21,000 But we don't need to revive it every two minutes. 180 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:35,000 It's interesting you say that I had a conversation with, back in season two, Dr. Erica Ball, who writes contemporary classical music in the US. 181 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:49,000 And we were having this conversation about that, why people keep putting on all these shows of Mozart and Tchaikovsky and when there's all these people that are alive today, and a lot of women too, 182 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:56,000 and people of color that are writing new music and why aren't we listening to that and why aren't they being put on. 183 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:12,000 And, yeah, it was this sort of this push and pull between the audience that wants to hear something familiar, because I think they will enjoy themselves more if they know what they, you know, they know it and they feel familiar with it, or the audience that wants to feel challenged 184 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:23,000 and wants to be pushed out of their comfort zone and it's a real quandary. And I guess it probably is a similar thing because at the end of the day, these things have got to make money. 185 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,000 Absolutely. 186 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:47,000 Yes, and there's this whole conversation about how like the older people have more of the money. And so if we want to make money, we have to do what the older people quotes. Yeah, what they want to see is what they're comfortable with but what we're forgetting is that younger 187 00:28:47,000 --> 00:29:06,000 people want to be part of these conversations they want to support the arts people who, you know, can't necessarily afford, you know, to, you know, wear a suit to an evening of $500 theater. 188 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:23,000 They, they also deserve the arts they also deserve to see themselves on stage, be exposed to these different worlds and so there's, you know, yes, the arts need to make money. 189 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:40,000 And we need to, you know, keep bringing in the people who are going to pay for the things, but also not forget that there's a new and diverse audience out there who also needs to see this work. 190 00:29:40,000 --> 00:30:07,000 And there's a theater company in town here that does incredibly avant garde fantastic works and I've worked with them with dramaturgy a few times, kicking myself that I wasn't able to work on their new play, which is up this weekend, but they do these 191 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:28,000 quite specific works, and, you know, both that theater and the community theaters in town and the other professional theaters in town, make things very accessible to a diversity of audiences which I think is a really wonderful thing about our local 192 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:44,000 community here that you know yes you can go and see ragtime and Susickle, and also an immersive Frankenstein, you know, really fantastic. 193 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:52,000 Yeah, it's interesting isn't it's like the bigger things get the more mainstream they have to get to have an audience. 194 00:30:52,000 --> 00:31:20,000 And it is kind of disappointing. 195 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:28,000 So, thanks to the purpose of our discussion today, which I'm not apologizing at all for going off track and I'll probably do it again. 196 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,000 Thank you for having a grown up arts conversation with me. 197 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,000 I love it. I do love it. 198 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,000 Yeah, so how many kids have you got Jen. 199 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:49,000 I have to. I have Mickey who is 12 and Eloise who's 15 months. Oh, gorgeous. I love that name Eloise that is such a sweet little name. 200 00:31:49,000 --> 00:32:01,000 Oh, that's beautiful. So, two kids at completely different stages of their, of their growing up, how, how you finding that the gap and I'm asking that because I've got seven years between my two. 201 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:08,000 And at times it can be very challenging, but how do you sort of navigate that the differences I suppose the challenges of that. 202 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:23,000 Yeah, we were very wishy washy for 10 years about whether or not we wanted to have another baby. And all of our friends were having pandemic baby so we thought let's have a pandemic baby and so we had a pandemic baby. 203 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:38,000 And, you know, we were really, you know, honestly nervous about how Mickey was going to handle, you know, not being an only child anymore after being an only child for 10 years. 204 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:44,000 And their relationship is so sweet. 205 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,000 She started giving real hugs, just a couple of weeks ago. 206 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:59,000 And she loves they they run at each other and he picks her up and she hugs him around the neck and it's, it's super sweet. 207 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:08,000 And I really like that you know there are things that you know that we do with Mickey that Eloise can't be involved with. 208 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:19,000 You know I took him to see wicked at a theater where two hours in either direction from the closest like big city. 209 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:27,000 So I took him to one of the big cities to see the tour of wicked, and she can't come. 210 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:38,000 Or, we're taking him on a behind the scenes tour of the zoo because he wants to, he wants to be a zookeeper. 211 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,000 And you have to be. 212 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:53,000 He is, we're specifically taking him behind the scenes of the reptile house. And you have to be over eight to come to go to the reptile house so there are these things that we only do with him. 213 00:33:53,000 --> 00:34:04,000 And I think that really helps, you know, strengthen that relationship, since, you know, a lot of attention has to be on her. 214 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:17,000 You know we can't do the same nighttime routine with Mickey anymore that we used to do because Eloise has an earlier bedtime and honestly, I fall asleep with her, a lot of the time. 215 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:24,000 And, but yeah, their, their relationship is really fantastic. I was just thinking the other day that when she graduates from high school. 216 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,000 I'm going to be 60, which is very old. 217 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:35,000 You know, it'll be fine. Yeah, I've done that actually maintain that. 218 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:48,000 Yeah, yeah, that's love. That's really nice. And when you talk about that thinking to the future. I remember one day I was sitting in the car waiting at school pickup, and I worked out how many more years I'll be sitting in the car at this spot for school. 219 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:55,000 I was like, Oh my god, like, it freaked me out for a second, but you don't think about that every day. 220 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:08,000 Yeah, you just, you just get on with your life but yeah I think the saddest moment for me though like I'd never had sort of any, like, sort of regrets or anything about the age gap because it just literally it happened how it had to happen, you know, it couldn't have happened any 221 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:22,000 other way. And, but then when I realized they'll never actually go to school together. I thought, Oh, that's a shame because I really liked, you know, having my sister at school and, you know, just, I think the ease of the drop offs and the pickups you know, one location. 222 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:31,000 But I was like, Oh, and that was really the only time I sort of had a bit of a moment but apart from that. Yeah, but how did you feel. Oh sorry you gone. 223 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:38,000 It's interesting to I work at, at a small private arts based school. 224 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:58,000 And there's a preschool and I work at the elementary I used to work at the preschool. And Mickey was already in elementary school when I started working at this school so we've kept him in public school and he's really thriving in public school. 225 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:08,000 And, Eloise is already registered at the preschool for when she turns to. So for all it's 2024. 226 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:29,000 And it's just a very different, you know, kind of, kind of thing I know from being an extracurricular teacher of Mickey's he's taken some of my theater camps and I used to teach an artful yoga class where you, the kiddos do yoga and then they do an art project that gets 227 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,000 into the creative space. 228 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:39,000 And it's just it does not always work out for me to be Mickey's teacher. 229 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:55,000 And, you know, it might be completely different with Eloise that you know she might be able to be my student and so just kind of thinking about the differences between having a child in public school and having a child in private school. 230 00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:00,000 I mean I don't I don't know how she'll be, but you know, 231 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:08,000 Yeah, no, it's, and I've noticed the differences in how children are educated in the gap. 232 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:24,000 Like, I don't know just the things that Alex used to bring home the eldest about how he was taught to read and particular things around maths and then Digby the little one, it's like they use completely different jargon about talking about things and sometimes I'll 233 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:34,000 find myself saying a thing that Alex used to do like with these called chunk it up when you had a really big, really big word, and you break it into two and it did be looking at what are you talking about. 234 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:51,000 I'm like, Oh, sorry, you don't say that you say something else now. And just get just these all these little differences. It's like, it's been quite interesting because I have my backgrounds in early childhood education so I found it really interesting to see how, you know, these new, I guess new 235 00:37:51,000 --> 00:38:04,000 research has been done and things like that over the years about how you deliver your content or whatever and all the all the new technology that's around now which wasn't around when Alex was a little tucker. 236 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:14,000 Yeah, Mickey, Mickey asked the other day. He was like, Why do you keep changing my rules about how much screen time I'm allowed to have, like how much time on the switch and how much time on the iPad. 237 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:26,000 Because we don't know what we're doing. No one has ever had to do this before. Yeah, we have no idea. 238 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:45,000 I love that. Oh, I love that so much. Yeah, I'll try to figure it out. Yeah, yeah, we're the guinea pig generation when it comes to this. Oh my gosh, it's funny. 239 00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:13,000 Talking about differences, I want to chat about when you when you had Mickey and your transition to becoming a mother, compared to when you had Eloise. 240 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:22,000 How, how did you go with your own identity, I guess and the adjustments in changing from Jen to somebody's mother. 241 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:33,000 Yeah, that's great. That's a great question. Um, when I had Mickey, it was you know it's 31. 242 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:39,000 And most of my friends hadn't yet had children. 243 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:47,000 Being in the Washington DC area at that time people have children, very late. 244 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:56,000 So, I think I knew one couple who had a baby. And so kind of being like you said the guinea pigs. 245 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:02,000 At the time, and kind of having to figure this all out. 246 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:14,000 My parents were relatively close by about 45 minutes away at that time and my mom was one of Mickey's primary caregivers. While I was at work she came three days a week. 247 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:22,000 And he had sitters the other two days, or with my husband, and being able to have my mom there. 248 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:38,000 Being supportive and being really my role model of being a parent because I didn't have well because she's awesome but also because I didn't have any real peers to look at as role models. 249 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:44,000 And just kind of trying to figure it all out at that time. 250 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:53,000 Between when we had Mickey in the Washington DC area, and having Eloise here. 251 00:40:53,000 --> 00:41:03,000 You know we lived, we've kind of slowly gone halfway across the country we made a stop in Michigan which is the little mitten shaped. 252 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:15,000 Up by Canada. And so we made a stop there for two years, and then moved here. And within that 10 years in between Eloise and Mickey. 253 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:20,000 You know now that I'm in my 40s my husband's in his 40s now. 254 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:31,000 Most of our friends are finished having babies. Yeah. And so, you know, we don't feel like we're starting from scratch we don't feel like we're starting. 255 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:43,000 Not knowing anything and in fact, our friends are very thankful that we're helping them clean out their basements and garages and giving us all the things. 256 00:41:43,000 --> 00:42:02,000 But it feels. Even with all the changes you know there there are apps for everything now and, you know, having online communities now that didn't exist back in 2011. 257 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:13,000 Feels less like we're reinventing ourselves and more like yeah this is just how this is. 258 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,000 Yeah, that makes sense. 259 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:22,000 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I could kind of relate to that and the way you've heard that that kind of makes sense. 260 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:30,000 Yeah, because it's new, but it's not new in a way, you know, it's, yeah, it's familiar at the same time. 261 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:40,000 Did you have children. Yeah. Yeah. So like, you know, Mickey was sleeping in his own room at two months and sleeping through the night at four months. 262 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:48,000 Eloise moved out of our room at six months, and still isn't sleeping through the night. Yeah. 263 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:58,000 And never got the crib transfer and so we're using a floor bed with her instead of a crib and things like that. There are definitely new things to learn but it's not a complete reinvent. 264 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:09,000 Yeah, see that's interesting isn't it like my two are completely different, same sort of thing like, I know what you said then just, yeah, sounds very similar. 265 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:25,000 And it's like, you're getting to know the child, like you sort of you know the ups you know the, the physical, the caring role the routine, but it's getting to know this little person and that's something I found really actually quite exciting about having another child. 266 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:39,000 I love to putting it off for so long was that it's like, oh, I get to meet a new person and find out what they're like and what they like and what they don't like and all this sort of stuff. It was actually something I hadn't really thought of when I'm, when I, you know, the 267 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,000 overwhelm of having your first child. 268 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:52,000 It's just like, and you stop to think, yeah, when and being older to, did you find that like have physically being older yourself being older like I had digs. 269 00:43:52,000 --> 00:44:00,000 I was 29 I reckon I had him a few months before I turned 30 and digs. What's that seven years after that. 270 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:12,000 I just felt like so much more content in myself as a person, you know, especially moving quite close to 40s when I think that's the time when you literally decide you don't give a shit about anything. 271 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:32,000 Absolutely and feeling so much like, like I don't have to prove anything to anybody that I was when I was pregnant with Mickey, I was, I was the education program manager of a regional children's theater, and I was teaching theater classes, five days a week, 272 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:47,000 and I would still, you know, eight months pregnant squat down on the floor and things like this is what I do for my job and I'm with Eloise, I was at like six months I was like I can't walk up the hill to the playground anymore. 273 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,000 Get me a chair. 274 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:53,000 What else is going to happen that sorry. 275 00:44:53,000 --> 00:45:02,000 Yeah, just like, I'm going to ask for what I need and people are going to understand and that's going to be okay. Yeah, yes, that's okay. 276 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,000 Now go and you go. 277 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:09,000 Yeah, I think like a big thing for me though is that I wish. 278 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:27,000 I think this is this is always the case with people who have second children, third children, fourth children, whatever, I'm not going there. 279 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:41,000 I'm not going to be the living part, but I wish that, you know, in between the time that I had Mickey and the time that I had Eloise, my understanding of early childhood education fine motor skills gross motor skills. 280 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,000 The arts. 281 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:47,000 How to provide experiences to children. 282 00:45:47,000 --> 00:46:02,000 And the physical location that we're in has changed so much that like now, you know we go on nature walks, and there wasn't that in. 283 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:19,000 That I knew of in Washington DC, or, you know, we, you know, have these, you know, tactile experiences and toys that, you know, are more open ended and things like that. 284 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:29,000 You know I know how to create things for Eloise that I know how to create for Mickey. And so I wish that he had been able to have those experiences as well. 285 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:50,000 Yeah, yeah, I can relate to that too. 286 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:58,000 You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was a human. 287 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:04,000 Do you, I guess, this mom guilt thing it's a big one that I like to talk about. 288 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,000 What's your thoughts about that whole thing. 289 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:15,000 Oh it absolutely exists, at least for me, I can't speak for anybody else but so I'm Jewish. 290 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:21,000 And we have lots of guilt everywhere all the time. 291 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:25,000 generational trauma. 292 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:39,000 But I think it comes from so many different places that you just internalize it without meaning to. 293 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:45,000 I have my husband is incredibly supportive. 294 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:58,000 He's a wonderful dad, a wonderful partner, and I still feel bad telling him that I want to take a pottery class, because it's going to take me away from the family. 295 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:16,000 It is absolutely nothing that he has done or expressed or would do or express in fact when I tell him, hey, I really want to take this pottery class he goes, good. You should in that tone of voice. 296 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:23,000 But I feel guilty about taking that time away. 297 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:29,000 I was just talking about the positive influences of having online communities. 298 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:47,000 But there's absolutely negatives with that as well. It's, you know, I found some wonderful supportive communities but, you know, I still feel the need to say like, oh we watch such and such. 299 00:48:47,000 --> 00:49:01,000 We're not a no screen time family. Like I feel like we're not no screen time or, oh, Eloise had, oh she had a peanut M&M the other day. 300 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:10,000 And I watched her like a hawk. I mean like, yeah, it's like this caveat. Yeah. Yeah. 301 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:23,000 And so there are wonderful things about that online community and then just things that make you stop for a second, not that anyone is necessarily actually judging you. 302 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:40,000 Yeah. The assumption that someone will. Yeah, that culture that we've sort of become familiar with I suppose that that's what we should expect to happen when we share things like that. Yeah. 303 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:53,000 I found I've deliberately stopped following people that make me feel challenged like that. I feel like, oh, if such and such read this or somebody saw this, I'd feel uncomfortable. So I've really done. 304 00:49:53,000 --> 00:50:07,000 I do it every now and then. Just go through the list and go, no, actually not feeling it. And try to try to have on my feed people that I don't know, are very similar to me in their values, I guess. 305 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:13,000 It's a good way to put it. Yeah. We just started with a new sitter. 306 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:25,000 And she has a reggio Emilia background. I have a reggio Emilia background. And, you know, that can go a couple of different ways. 307 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:42,000 You could be super crunchy, you know, all the super crunchy things. Or you could potentially be, I call myself crunchy but realistic. Yeah. I exist in this world and this is where I am. 308 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:56,000 So we were interviewing, I would say, oh, you know, we're not no screen time. And she goes, you watch Bluey? Oh yeah, we watch Bluey. Oh, love Bluey. Oh, love. 309 00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:15,000 Bluey is not as into it yet as I am. But oh, it's the best. These parents. Yes. I'll tell you, last night we were watching, we had Bluey on and everyone else left the room but me. And I just sat there and watched it. I watched it for about two hours by myself laughing my head off. 310 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:23,000 Can I ask though, do you guys get the humor, the Australian humor, like that, because Bandit can be quite colloquial. 311 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:36,000 I don't think we get all of it. But I think like what goes over our heads, just like we don't know. You don't know that you don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to be a chilly healer when I grow up. 312 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:40,000 You know. She's awesome. Good old chilly. 313 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:54,000 I love the stickers in her car and like it's just feels very real. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that her car is so messy. The messy car is what I can relate to. And there was a joke in one of the episodes where her sister comes to visit and the kids have never met the sister. 314 00:51:54,000 --> 00:52:10,000 And somebody, I think it was Bingo, had a onesie on that turned her into a cheater or something. Anyway, they were hiding in the car. That's where I'm going with this. And chilly said, that's okay. We won't die because there's food under the seats. 315 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:19,000 And I was like, yes, you can see it in my car. Like, I feel really validated right now. Not judged. 316 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:27,000 Absolutely. Oh, dear. Yeah. Sorry. I hijacked. You were talking about Bluey and then you were going to say something else and I just jumped in. Sorry. 317 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:39,000 And I have to tell you that this is the way that parents in America also respond when I say Bluey. Everyone always goes do do do do do do do do. And like everybody does it. 318 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:53,000 Yeah. Yeah. This woman. I say, yeah, she goes, you watch Miss Rachel. I'm like, yeah, we watch Bluey and Miss Rachel and Sesame Street. Yeah. Oh, yeah. 319 00:52:53,000 --> 00:53:12,000 And then there was something else. We're talking about food and how we both have the same. We have the same kind of outlook on food for our kids where we like, you know, we try to be nutritious, but also where everything in moderation. 320 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:27,000 People set the kids up for positive associations with food and positive relationships with their bodies. And so it just made me feel real good that like, here's this person with this background in early childhood education and the arts. 321 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:36,000 And we have the same kind of outlook on on things and that she's not going to make me feel like I should have cloth diapers. You know? 322 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:50,000 Yeah, that's it, isn't it? And when like when you go, she does all this different stuff. It's like, oh, I'll do this while she's not here. And when she gets back, it'll be like, you know, yeah. And I don't know, like, I've been looking after kids for a long time in my job. 323 00:53:50,000 --> 00:54:14,000 And I don't know, I feel like most people are, I don't know what the word is, they are the screen time parents, they are the snack parents. Most people like that. Like that's what we are. But then the voices in the not that section are really loud and then they make us feel bad about our choices or what we do with our kids. 324 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:26,000 So I don't know how you block out the noise, but yeah, it's a hard one. It is a tough one. Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that about that. I find it really interesting. 325 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:43,000 I shouldn't say I feel it. It's interesting talking to people about their guilt. I sound like I'm like some sort of creeper. But I just find it fascinating how, you know, people's, their cultural background, the location, their upbringing and everything that goes into creating a person. 326 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:51,000 How that affects how your parent and I just find it so fascinating. So yeah, thanks for indulging me there. 327 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:39,000 Do you find that for you to create, to continue to create and not just in, you know, your profession, but also the things you do at home, like you're talking about all the things you like to do. Do you feel like that's really important for you to maintain for you, for yourself? 328 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:53,000 Yeah, I think a big thing for me, I'm a person with anxiety and depression. And I think, and I know that that's something that comes up a lot in these conversations. Yeah, it's very common. Yeah. 329 00:55:53,000 --> 00:56:11,000 I, when I found pottery, you know, I'm a perfectionist. That's part of how my anxiety manifests in perfectionism and then procrastination. Because if things can't be perfect, then why do them? 330 00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:30,000 When I found pottery, you can't be perfect with it, especially when you're first starting out. And if you make something that's awful, and you fire it, then your mom will want it. And that's great. 331 00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:42,000 And your mom always, my mom, I don't know about other people, but my mom always makes me feel good about stuff. So she's got a couple of really terrible things that I've made. 332 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:49,000 My dad also, my dad is also very excellent. They share the bathroom, but I give them to my mom. 333 00:56:49,000 --> 00:57:03,000 And if something flops on the wheel, or it doesn't work out when you're hand building it, you squish it, and you let it dry out a little bit, so it's not completely full of water. 334 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:20,000 And then you do something else, and you try again. And just knowing that it's not going to be perfect, it can't be perfect. And that is okay. And then you can squish it. 335 00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:36,000 It was just so, like my very first class, it was so just affirming. And now I can make things that you can use, and I made this mug that I'm drinking out of. 336 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:40,000 It's gorgeous. Is that blue? Is it blue and brown? 337 00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:44,000 It's like a Tiffany blue. 338 00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:45,000 Yeah, it's gorgeous. 339 00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:56,000 And then brown and I, you know, and I thank you. And I keep learning things and you can hold it and put something in it that will nourish your body. 340 00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:03,000 And, you know, I keep learning new techniques and I learned how to facet. 341 00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:18,000 I found that I was like, oh my gosh, that's so cool. I want to make everything. And right now I'm taking a class about surface decoration and I'm learning how to scratch away colors and how to do lino prints and things like that and clay. 342 00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:28,000 And it's, it's just fun. And if it doesn't work out, the stakes are so low. 343 00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:29,000 Yeah. 344 00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:34,000 But if you make something beautiful or something useful. 345 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:51,000 Those stakes are super high and like you've you've done this thing that can help nourish your body or your, your home. I find that the things that I like to do. I was thinking about this today. 346 00:58:51,000 --> 00:59:05,000 The things that I like to do theater, pottery, quilting, baking, require other people's active participation. 347 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:22,000 And so it's this nurturing instinct. These are things that sometimes maybe I do them by myself, but the people, the other people involved aren't passive participants. 348 00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:36,000 And so I find that, you know, maybe I read somewhere someone said, you know, people think I like embroidery because it's soothing and meditative but really I just get to stab something over and over again. 349 00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:40,000 And I felt that very deeply in my soul. 350 00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,000 I've never thought of it that way. 351 00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:55,000 Me either until I read that and I was like, yes, that is exactly. Yes. And when I make my quilts, it's I completely hand piece and hand quilt. 352 00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:59,000 I can't be bothered to load a Bob and I don't know how to do it. It's fine. 353 00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:01,000 It's more trouble than it's worth. 354 01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:14,000 You know, I really feel that. Yeah, I am looking at my sewing machine right now. I don't use it right there. I'm not even sewing by hand. 355 01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:39,000 But I can take it with me to a waiting room and do that there. But then when I finished a quilt, you know, you can you can snuggle or you can say, where's Eloise, or you can, you know, take it to a picnic and sit. 356 01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:50,000 And so there are these. And then with baking you eat it. That's better than having to bake. My husband does baking most of the time. 357 01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:55,000 But I, making a cake, man, that's the best. 358 01:00:55,000 --> 01:01:11,000 Oh, yes. My, my little one. He loves making cakes because he gets to lick the beaters. And that is, oh yeah, that's it. He doesn't eat it afterwards. So we make these cakes and they're sitting there like, oh, better eat this cake as I can't let it go to waste. 359 01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,000 You know, damn. Yeah. 360 01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:26,000 But yeah, it's and then we may. Yeah. And if we make something else with the batter is not that consistency. He's not interested in helping me at all. Like, it's like he just has to lick the beaters. And it's like this ritual. 361 01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:39,000 I remember as a kid, like getting to lick the beaters when, when we'd, Mum had finished her cooking and, you know, I probably always wanted the one with the most on it. So, you know, I always make sure I give him the one that he wants. 362 01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:53,000 I think the one that whatever I get, you know, I don't know. It's just creating those, the traditions, I suppose that, you know, to teach him how to do it properly too. Cause you don't, you got to not waste any of it. So, you know. 363 01:01:53,000 --> 01:02:06,000 So Mickey knows when I'm baking, if he's not involved and I go, Hey, Mickey, I have a really important job. He knows that means he gets to lick the beaters. Like that's the, he knows what his important job is. 364 01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:23,000 I love that. Cause that's the thing when your kids get older, like things that they were quite happy to do when they're starting to be on a teenager, it's like, Oh, I'm actually not interested in that anymore. But that's a lovely way that he'll probably always continue to be involved. Cause who can say no to licking the beaters? 365 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,000 Right? Right? 366 01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:54,000 That's so lovely. That's really nice. I love that. 367 01:02:54,000 --> 01:03:21,000 So with that, I mean, this next question probably won't apply so much to Eloise at this stage of her life, but with Mickey, do you find it important that he sees you as someone who's not just there? And I say just, I shouldn't say just not there only to be in a mothering role for his benefit or for the household's benefit, but you're also your own person and you do things that don't involve anybody else sometimes. 368 01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:41,000 Absolutely. I think my mom is the most incredible role model in a lot of ways. But one of those is that she, you know, she was a stay at home mom. And then when I was 10 years old, she went to college. She hadn't gone to college. 369 01:03:41,000 --> 01:04:03,000 So this wasn't going back to school. This was her first go. And so seeing that she was going and getting a degree and doing that set that as a role model for me. I mean, also partly that like, I would be struggling with my homework at the same time that she was struggling with her homework. 370 01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:20,000 And so that was a really great. It wasn't great that she was struggling. It was a great thing, a great thing to see that she was, you know, making these efforts to do something that she really wanted to do. 371 01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:42,000 And so that was sort of my role model in that way that, you know, you can be a mom, which is really awesome and also be your own person. And I always kind of struggle a little bit when I'm writing like the Instagram tagline or an artist statement. 372 01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:56,000 What do I put first? And if I don't put mom first, what does that mean for my identity? But if I do put mom first, what does that mean for my identity? 373 01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:59,000 Yeah, it's a double edged sword, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. 374 01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:16,000 Yeah. Do I want to be in an outward facing way? 375 01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:35,000 Can I get a little bit political? Of course you can. Absolutely. I'd welcome that. Yes. 376 01:05:35,000 --> 01:06:01,000 So Missouri has been making some laws that are against what my family and I personally believe about the right for every human being to be a human being. And there was a trans rights rally in the state capitol, which is just about a half hour away from where we live. 377 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:15,000 And it happened to be a day that neither Mickey nor I had school. And I asked him, I was like, hey, but do you want to, neither of us have school. Do you want to go to the trans rights rally? And he was like, yes, absolutely. 378 01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:34,000 Oh, good on him. And Eloise came too, but didn't have a choice. So, you know, but it's, you know, important. I think, you know, he can be whoever he is, whoever he wants to be. 379 01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:50,000 But I think it's important that he knows, you know, that we are all political beings and that we make choices in this world to speak up for ourselves and to speak up for other people. 380 01:06:50,000 --> 01:07:08,000 So, you know, talk about like life is politics. You can't leave politics out of a conversation. I actually just commented that on a parenting message board where they were like, oh, shouldn't, you know, can't we just have one space where we can keep politics out of it? 381 01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:20,000 I don't understand why. I just, life is politics. My body is political. My parenting is political. My teaching is political. Like life is politics. 382 01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:28,000 Yeah, literally. It's all, it all overlaps. Like we can't be who we are. We couldn't be who we are if it wasn't for the political environment that we're in. 383 01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:39,000 So absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. My parents were protesters in the 60s. So I found my dad's conscientious objector card from the Vietnam War. 384 01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:41,000 Beautiful. Yes. 385 01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:45,000 Which is pretty rad. 386 01:07:45,000 --> 01:08:00,000 But, but yeah, I think that for, for kids to know that their parents are caregivers and also that it's important for them to take care of themselves. 387 01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:04,000 Never thought about it that way until it just came out of my mouth. That's what it is. 388 01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:15,000 It's amazing in a nutshell, literally, isn't it? Like that's it. Because if you don't look after yourself, you don't care for yourself, you can't look after anybody else. 389 01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:21,000 And going back to what you're saying about involving your son in the politics, I think it's really important to do that. 390 01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:33,000 And I was having this conversation with someone, I can't remember, a while ago maybe, about the way the generation's, certainly in Australia, I'm not, you know, obviously familiar with, with how it's been going over there. 391 01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:42,000 My parents and my grandparents would never tell me who they voted for. Like they wouldn't, we have the, we have the two parties here, the main parties, you've got the Liberal and Labour. 392 01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:54,000 And Liberal is meant to be Liberal, but it's not the right word to describe that party because they're not, they're not modern, they're not progressive, they're not for the people, they're sort of the opposite. 393 01:08:54,000 --> 01:09:05,000 They're the right wingers. And the left wing is the Labour Party, which is, you know, for the working man and for the arts and for all the good things that I believe in. 394 01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:20,000 Yes. And yeah, so yeah, I didn't find out who my family voted for for a very long time. And there's also this culture over here, and I guess it's the same everywhere, that you sort of, you don't necessarily vote for who your parents voted for, because they voted for that. 395 01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:26,000 But you're brought up in that particular way that it's more likely you're going to vote that way, I guess. 396 01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:34,000 It'd be pretty radical if you sort of went off the other way, I guess. So yeah, I sort of worked it out just by accident as I got older. 397 01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:42,000 And I remember asking my Nana once, like, because it was voting day and they went off and voted. And I said, who do you vote for? She goes, oh, no, you don't ask people that. You can't, you can't ask people that. 398 01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:52,000 And I'm really glad now that the politics is such an open conversation, because, you know, my son's almost 16. We voted 18 over here. 399 01:09:52,000 --> 01:10:00,000 And it's, I don't want him walking into a polling booth one day just going, oh, OK, so what's this all about? What do I do here? 400 01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:09,000 You know, like, I want him to grow up understanding the culture that we live in and how the politics obviously, as we said before, it's a fundamental part of our lives. 401 01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:18,000 And we often joke, you know, my husband has been a Liberal voter for a long time and I've been a Labor voter forever. 402 01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:32,000 And we chat to my son about the differences and why, you know, a political in a certain circumstance or over a particular issue, why I feel the way I do and why the way dad feels the way he does, you know. 403 01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:49,000 So I'm not telling him he has to vote for either or whatever. I simply want him to have an understanding of how these parties and what they believe in will affect him as a person and the decisions that he'll make in his life moving forward and in his children's life if he has them. 404 01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:57,000 So, yeah, I'm I'm all for it. I think it's wonderful to get kids involved as early as you can, as early as is appropriate or as you believe. 405 01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:05,000 And I think it's also for your child and your family, because like you said, it's it's all intertwined. You can't have one without the other. 406 01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:13,000 My husband is actually a professor of political science. That's what brought us to Missouri. Awesome. 407 01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:31,000 And his father is also a professor of political science. Yeah. And so like he knows who his father and whose parents had voted for because, you know, he was out on campaign trails and, you know, doing research and things like that. 408 01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:46,000 With Do you know the American sitcom from the 80s? Family Ties? Oh, yes, very much. Yes. Yes. Yes. So with Alex P Keaton, who was a Reagan Republican, while his parents were hippies. 409 01:11:46,000 --> 01:12:02,000 And so I think about that pretty frequently that like, you know, you can be anything you want to be, but like, don't don't do that. It's been over the last several very scary years. 410 01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:17,000 Yes. With, you know, people are changing from what, you know, they had traditionally been voting either for better or for worse. 411 01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:32,000 And people have started having these conversations more and more frequently as, you know, you become empowered to tell, you know, especially older relatives like, hey, it's not okay that you talk that way. 412 01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:37,000 Yes, we had a member of our family come out as transgender. 413 01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:52,000 And, you know, a couple, was it just last year? I think it was just last year. And, you know, having to, you know, teach their 90 something year old grandmother. 414 01:12:52,000 --> 01:13:12,000 You know, the other relatives who are of our parents generation, you know, what that means and that they are still the same person. They just, you know, have a name and a, you know, and other stuff that fits them better now. 415 01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:22,000 And, you know, we, plus this current generation that like, we, we told Mickey, we're like, hey, here's, here's what's going on with this member of our family. 416 01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:26,000 Do you have any questions? And he's like, no. 417 01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:30,000 And we like randomly ran into this family member. 418 01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:44,000 We knew that we were going to the same place on a family vacation, but we didn't know we look around into them on the beach. Yeah, and we hung out with them for a while and then they went their way and we went our way. 419 01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:49,000 And we looked at Mickey we're like so see same same exact person. 420 01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:54,000 He looks at me he goes, I know. 421 01:13:54,000 --> 01:14:04,000 Yeah, no, like, no, like nerves or anything. It's like, yes. No. Yeah. Yeah, it's wonderful. Isn't it. 422 01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:10,000 We are, you know, of minority religion. 423 01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:15,000 But we don't wear our minority on the outside. 424 01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:19,000 I am also of a minority gender, I am a woman. 425 01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:29,000 But, you know, for all intents and purposes, at least as far as we know now, Mickey is cisgender straight white male. 426 01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:41,000 And we have spoken pretty frequently about, you know that, you know, he's got a responsibility to speak up for people who don't have those appearances. 427 01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:43,000 Yeah, yeah. 428 01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:49,000 And, you know, I'm sorry that we've had to have those conversations. 429 01:14:49,000 --> 01:15:11,000 My husband, but I'm glad that we have had them. My husband is not Jewish. And when, you know conversations about, you know, there was a right wing awful protests where they were chanting the Jews will not replace us. 430 01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:18,000 And things like that. And he was like, well, you know, conversations about the Holocaust and things like that. 431 01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:22,000 He's like, well, isn't Mickey too young to hear about these things? 432 01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:25,000 And I'm like, I don't ever remember not knowing. Yeah. 433 01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:29,000 Like, I don't remember a time in my life when I didn't know what the Holocaust was. 434 01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:31,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 435 01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:44,000 It wasn't like this moment where you remember getting sat down and told it was like part of your culture, part of your, it was there. A very visible part of, of, yeah, knowing. Yeah. 436 01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:57,000 Yeah, yeah. It's an important part of being a human being. And, you know, when people talk about bringing it back to the arts, you know, when people talk about the arts, well can't they just not be political. 437 01:15:57,000 --> 01:16:04,000 Why do actors have to talk about politics? Why do the arts are political? The arts have always been political. 438 01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:15,000 When we read Richard the third, we have to remember that, you know, Shakespeare's patron was Queen Elizabeth the first. 439 01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:23,000 And her, now I'm going to get the lineage wrong. It was either her grandfather or her father. No, it wasn't her father. It was her grandfather. 440 01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:33,000 Her father was Henry the eighth. It was her grandfather, who is the hero who slays Richard at the end of the play. Richard the third is political propaganda. 441 01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:36,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 442 01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:42,000 Theatre is always political. Art is always political. Period. Yeah. 443 01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:54,000 We actually had this big thing happen in Australia recently, or not recently now, a few, few months ago. Was it last year? I can't remember now. Time's just a construct really. 444 01:16:54,000 --> 01:17:01,000 As we were saying before. But yeah, there was this lady. She's the richest person in Australia. 445 01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:09,000 I'm not going to honour her by saying her name because I don't believe in her beliefs and her thoughts and her things. So, 446 01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:14,000 she won't be listening, so it doesn't matter. But Australians will know who I'm talking about. 447 01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:17,000 She has a lot of minds that she inherited from her father. 448 01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:24,000 And anyway, she was sponsoring one of the netball teams. 449 01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:31,000 And one of the netball players is an Indigenous Australian First Nations person. 450 01:17:31,000 --> 01:17:40,000 And she made a comment that she wasn't really impressed by the comments that this rich person's father had said about Aboriginal people. 451 01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:46,000 He'd said it back in the 80s. And it wasn't appropriate then, but never obviously got called out then. 452 01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:58,000 But so this woman's sort of response to that was to take all the money away from them, took all of their funding away so they didn't have a sponsor. 453 01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:05,000 And most women in Australia that play professional sport, they have a day job because they can't get sponsorship. 454 01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:11,000 So they're not full-time professional athletes, unlike the men who get a lot of money. 455 01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:21,000 Anyway, this rich person made the comment that sport and politics should never mix. 456 01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:31,000 And it just reminded me when you said about the arts, it's like, particularly in a country like Australia where sport is like a religion, it is like a way of life for people. 457 01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:38,000 And politics overlaps everything, like we've said. It just reminded me of that. And I thought, I'll mention it. 458 01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:43,000 I don't know why it's taken me so long to get it out. But that was my point. 459 01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:55,000 Yes, absolutely. No, I totally and I have all of these thoughts spinning in my head about like, it's the same thing has happened in America. 460 01:18:55,000 --> 01:19:01,000 We play the national anthem before all of our sporting events, which, yeah, let's take politics out of it. 461 01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:06,000 Why do we play the national anthem before all of our sporting events? Yeah, whatever. Yeah. 462 01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:14,000 But then a few years ago, people started kneeling during the national anthem. 463 01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:27,000 They don't really stand for what the national anthem stands for and got kicked off of teams and their sponsors taken away and things like that. 464 01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:39,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. That really annoyed me. That did that whole the taking the knee, like, honestly, it's a wonderful thing to do. 465 01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:48,000 And then it just got turned into this, I don't know, white persons again, taking over and saying what everybody can do or can't do. 466 01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:55,000 It's like back to the colonial days. Sorry, that's not a very nice thing to say. But that's what it reminded me of. 467 01:19:55,000 --> 01:20:01,000 You are absolutely I 100% agree with you. Yes. Yeah, it's horrible. 468 01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:07,000 Well, thank you. No, thanks for talking about that stuff. I like a good chat about politics. 469 01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:20,000 And I do. Yeah, it's and it's I do like to hear about other countries, how they're going with stuff too, because I mean, I, I consume a lot of media, particularly independent media, but there's nothing like hearing it. 470 01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:33,000 Not from the horse's mouth. I'm sorry. You know what I mean? Getting a person's perspective, living it right now. Yeah. But Jesus, some stuff going on over there. 471 01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:42,000 I watch what's happening in America and Jesus, I feel sorry for you guys. I just think, oh, can you imagine do you think one day it will actually become two countries? 472 01:20:42,000 --> 01:21:00,000 Like, is it that bad that people just have to not be near each other? And that's a really simplistic thing to say. But yeah, it's wild because like where I live would absolutely be the part of the country that I don't agree with. 473 01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:18,000 Because that's, yeah, that's who I am. And it's so interesting because the two major cities, St. Louis and Kansas City, St. Louis, in particular, is so much more liberal, liberal, like actual liberal. 474 01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:31,000 Than the rest of Missouri. But just the way that political lines are drawn. That's the thing. Our political lines are drawn just horribly. Yeah, right. 475 01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:54,000 And you know, there's, you know, Missouri is one of nine states in the country that has a compulsory Holocaust education. Right. Which is wild to me. Like, it's amazing. Yeah. But that's 100% because of lobbyists in St. Louis. Yeah, okay. 476 01:21:54,000 --> 01:22:12,000 And, you know, where I live right now in Columbia is this like, so the left is blue and the right is red. So we're in this tiny little blue dot in the sea of red. Yeah, right. 477 01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:32,000 And apparently, you know, for a major part because the university is here. But yeah, it's wild. Like it is. Yeah. It's, and like I don't, you know, people say like, well, if you don't like it, go someplace else. 478 01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:45,000 So well, you know, but then I couldn't make change happen. Not that I one person I'm going to make change happen. I know what you mean though. It's like you're abandoning the opportunity to be involved in challenging what they're happening. What's happening here, I guess. 479 01:22:45,000 --> 01:23:00,000 Yeah. But at the same time, like I know families with transgender children who are leaving the state because they have. Oh, you'd fear, you'd fear for your safety. Like, from what I've seen over here. Yeah, if that's accurate. Yeah, it's pretty appalling. 480 01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:04,000 It's really, it's really appalling. Reproductive rates as well. It's. Oh, yes. 481 01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:21,000 Oh man. All the things. Yeah. Yeah, jeepers. And it's funny though. I would say, oh, this is a reasonable guess. Almost 100% of people I've talked to on this show. I don't know if it's an arts thing, but they're always left leaning voters. 482 01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:39,000 If it's a thing about compassion and, you know, listening to people emotion sharing, supporting each other. It's always the arts people. It's just an inherent thing. Yeah. Well, it's interesting reading or I was wearing. 483 01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:55,000 I have a shirt that says I'm with the band, but it's B-A-N-N-E-D. I love that. Band books. I wore it to work the other day and one of the fifth graders said to me, you know, is that about band books? And I said, yeah. 484 01:23:55,000 --> 01:24:05,000 And she said, why do people ban books? And I said, because they don't want to ask questions about things. They just want to get rid of things that they don't understand. 485 01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:33,000 And then she gave me a big high five. But I think that that brings it all back to the power of positivity and asking questions. And I think that artists are in a specifically a uniquely appropriate place to be able to ask those questions and try to understand things that aren't necessarily part of their world. 486 01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:59,000 We talk about in education, we talk about providing children with windows, mirrors and sliding glass doors in our libraries. So the books that we have on our shelves should give a mirror so that they see themselves windows so that they can see other people's experiences and sliding glass doors so they can walk through and experience themselves with empathy. 487 01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:10,000 And I think that that is something that left leaning people are more willing to do than right leaning people are. 488 01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:37,000 Yeah, yeah, that was very well said. I love that. 489 01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:52,000 I actually have we have a family from Australia in our school. Yeah, and students because we have an emerging curriculum. We get to just answer the questions that the kiddos are interested in exploring. Yeah, give them education. 490 01:25:52,000 --> 01:26:09,000 And we were talking about, try to remember what exactly we were talking about. Oh, we were talking about if cultures all over the world celebrate things in December in exactly the same ways. 491 01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:22,000 Yeah, and so they understand their celebrate, you know, we don't celebrate holidays at work, but obviously like most of the kiddos in our school celebrate Christmas. So we talked about Christmas a lot. Yeah. 492 01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:33,000 And so they're like, well, Christmas is snowmen and reindeer. And so we talked about how reindeer are from Lapland and where Lapland is. 493 01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:44,000 And then I asked Karen, who's the mom from Australia, I was like, Can you come in and talk to my class? 494 01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:55,000 How you celebrate Christmas in Australia? Yeah, absolutely. So she brought like Christmas crackers and stuff and it was super fun. They were all like, wait, there's no snow. 495 01:26:55,000 --> 01:27:05,000 And he's like, no, it's summer. It's super hot. We're sweltering. But we wish there was snow. Yeah, it's fascinating. 496 01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:34,000 Fantastic conversation. 497 01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:43,000 So one of your questions that you had on your website was me to find new ways to work so you could continue creating. Yes. Yes. 498 01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:52,000 I thought that was super interesting because I actually didn't start doing any of this until I had kids. Yeah, right. 499 01:27:52,000 --> 01:28:16,000 So I was a theater, so I was doing all the theater stuff, which has definitely changed since I had kids. Yeah. But I didn't discover the visual stuff until when I was teaching in the theater and realized, 500 01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:27,000 Oh, if I was going to teach theater to kindergartners and first graders, I was going to need to learn how to teach visual arts. Yeah, because I was going to have to have them sit down and draw things. 501 01:28:27,000 --> 01:28:38,000 And I was going to have to, you know, have them create things. And so it wasn't until I was in my late 20s that I started doing those things. 502 01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:53,000 And that was completely inspired by my students I was teaching. And just having discovered I didn't pick up a ukulele until I was pregnant with Mickey because I wanted to have an instrument that I could play for and with my child. 503 01:28:53,000 --> 01:29:17,000 Yeah. And so, you know, baking came about after I had Mickey really because I wanted that sensory thing to do with him. And all of these things have come about relatively recently quilting in December 2020 because I wanted something that I could do during the 504 01:29:17,000 --> 01:29:32,000 pandemic. Yeah, at my house. And so I knew myself as a theater creative, but I didn't know myself with these other things until I was already a mom. 505 01:29:32,000 --> 01:30:00,000 Oh, hey, that's really cool. Yeah. 506 01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:12,000 It's been so lovely chatting with you Jen. I've really really enjoyed it. It's been great. And yeah, again, thank you for indulging me in the political side of things because that is one of my favorite things to talk about. 507 01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:22,000 But it's been fascinating and learning all about the dramaturgy which I didn't even know was a thing. And I just yeah it's it thank you for sharing so much I really appreciate it. 508 01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:28,000 Absolutely. Thank you for having grown up conversations with me they can be few and far between. 509 01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:35,000 I'm happy to indulge anytime you need one just let me know. 510 01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:48,000 Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend you think might be interested. 511 01:30:48,000 --> 01:31:00,000 The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alemjo, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband John. 512 01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:05,000 If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. 513 01:31:05,000 --> 01:31:12,000 If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. 514 01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:18,000 I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. 515 01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:44,000 Yeah. 516 01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:13,000 Yeah. 517 01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:43,000 Yeah. 518 01:33:12,000 --> 01:33:13,000 Yeah. 519 01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:43,000 Yeah. 520 01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:13,000 Yeah. 521 01:34:42,000 --> 01:34:43,000 Yeah.