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8 Britt Australian designer 8 Article # 18 August 2023 I started out lettering by accident. I was a very sporty child and genuinely believed I had not a creative bone in my body – to the point that I often got other classmates to help in art/sewing/woodwork classes because I despised what I produced. I was such a perfectionist. But I was guilty of often scribbling over my class books and diaries much to the teacher’s dismay, but if there was a sharpie around, I couldn’t help myself! In 2015 while going through a messy break up I decided to start scribbling quotes on paper, which lead to my first commissioned piece after I shared my work on social media. I was working in marketing at the time and was also responsible for a lot of the graphic design which became a big passion and the two just intertwined perfectly. This eventually led to designing logos, which lead to me now offering full blown brand identity packages. I am a sole trader working from home, which gives me the ultimate flexibility which is what I have been chasing for a long time. I never knew that scribbling with sharpies could lead me to where I am today – and I am glad I had plenty of ‘real jobs’ while I figured it out as I learnt so much from so many amazing people along the way. My mediums range and have done over the past 8 years – but when lettering I consistently use: Paint and ink markers Card or Canvas With graphic design, I rely heavily on: Illustrator Photoshop InDesign Canva I have a 2.5 year old son, Alba and an almost 1 year old daughter, Gia. After a hectic couple of years, I am really starting to find a little more rhythm and balance in work and parent life. Gia has just started two days childcare recently which has helped. Pre that, it was a lot harder to achieve much and meant I was often trying to squeeze things in at night or on the weekend when my husband was around. I genuinely didn’t mind as it was a high priority, I could keep her home as long as I could. When I was pregnant with Gia I would often wake around 2/3am and struggled to fall back to sleep so used to get up and do some work then. I’ve also done my fair share of late nights and weekends. What I do really doesn’t feel like work, so if I spent my entire weekend working, I was OK with that. However, it did eat into family time, so I would often feel guilty that the 4 of us weren’t getting chinks of time together. But then, you end up feel guilty about sending them to childcare to be able to work/create. There is no winning, I swear! Now I have 2-3 days childcare for both Alba and Gia, I have found the balance to be really good for our family. It’s much more clear cut – I work when they’re in care and when they’re home, I don’t. I had a minimum age in mind I wanted them to go to childcare which was my reasoning for holding off – and overall, I am glad I had them home with me for the period/s I did. Now I feel a lot less pressure to achieve anything while they’re home. But one challenge I still face when they are home is when I randomly come up with a new idea and I am not able to immediately execute/get the idea out. So many ideas have been lost because of this – but that’s ok, maybe they really weren’t worth executing in the first place. In regards to support – my husband is the most wonderful support, he is a very hands-on Dad and encourages me to have time away to be creative which means I am able to spend more time being creative if I choose. He is no doubt my biggest support physically and emotionally, and with him by my side I feel like I can honestly achieve anything. "I absolutely want to be more than a mother – not only for myself, my relationship with my husband but to also show my children, specifically my daughter – that you can be a loving mother that is present but also have your own interests and goals outside of raising your children. " Becoming a mother has absolutely influenced my work. I now find myself sharing quotes relating specifically to motherhood with its ups and downs. They resonate for me and often many followers who are in the same place. Sometimes I feel like it may be a detriment though, I do need to look at the bigger picture as a good chunk of my target audience is pre or post the baby days. And Mum guilt? Well, it exists whether you work full-time, part-time or not at all. Society gives us so many mixed messages. Gone are the days women stay home, and that was that. We are a generation that are choosing to live our lives how we please, instead of to please. But the comparison game is very real. We’re surrounded by all kinds of differences - there are mums choosing to work to fulfil their own needs and passions, and there are mums working because they don’t have a choice. Some mums are choosing to stay home, while others are wishing they could afford to the do the same. But it’s important to remember - just because someone is a stay-at-home mum, doesn’t mean that they are present in their role and their children are any better off. And just because someone works full-time, doesn’t mean she wants to be away from her children. I personally feel more mum guilt when I am working/creating as opposed to maybe catching up with friends – and I am not entirely sure why that is. What triggers my mum guilt specifically is usually people giving unsolicited advice. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The way our family is choosing to live our lives is about finding the right balance that works for us an entire family unit. This is why we shouldn’t judge anyone on what they choose to do. We’re all living our own lives, with our own goals and dreams, with kids that have very different needs – there is not a one size fits all approach. Less judgement, more support I say. I have a huge desire to be more than a mother – not only for myself and my relationship with my husband but to also show my children, specifically my daughter – that you can be a loving mother that is present but also have your own interests and goals outside of raising your children. But if I am honest, apart from my ‘work’, there isn’t a lot I do to try and encourage this. I know I need to get better and plan to in the coming months – starting with finally getting back to the gym (I joined today!) and also trying to arrange some kid-free catch ups with friends. It’s imperative I continue to be creative and have my own interests for numerous reasons. When you’re passionate about something, it can be very hard to just switch it off. I was raised to believe hard work and loyalty to your workplace comes first – even before your own needs. That didn’t resonate with me, and I found myself in some dark places because of it –stuck in jobs I hated or working for people I loathed. I wanted to find something I enjoyed doing, that got me excited to get out of bed and go towork for the day. Otherwise, life can become very mundane. It took me a long time to be able to follow my passion and I want my children to be able to see that work doesn’t just have to be something you do because you have to. We spend a huge portion of our lives working – I want to teach them to take the time to try many things and work out what they really love. "We’re all living our own lives, with our own goals and dreams, with kids that have different needs – there is not a one size fits all approach. Less judgement, more support I say." Another reason I have wanted to continue to work is to keep my finger on the pulse. I don’t want to fall behind in a world that’s ever evolving with technology and lose confidence to not return to the workforce because I feel out of my depth. It;s hard not to get caught up in the monetary value at times, but I for sure know what as long as I am creating – whether it be for money or joy – it’s extremely valuable to my wellbeing. But I admit I feel bad sometimes when I know I am creating for the ‘love’ and my husband has the kids, because I feel like if I am away from them then it should be to contribute financially – which even I know should not be the case! In terms of my own mother, I’ve been brought to know she was expected to be a stay-at-home mum, and it would’ve been hard for her to work even (if she wanted to) as my dad did travel a lot for work and could be away for a week or two at a time. But, it really would have benefited her to have her own financial freedom and to step away from being a mother. I often remind myself this in times of guilt. Unfortunately, society was a lot less forgiving 30 years ago. I’ll admit my childhood experience has led me to struggle in this department since becoming a mother – because I felt external expectation to also stay at home. Instead, I have chosen to follow my gut and navigate working with children home and in regular care. Admittedly, I struggled putting both into childcare for numerous reasons, but when I look at the bigger picture and the positives of me working/creating – there is no question it’s the right thing to do. I have a strong urge to feel like I am both contributing to our household financially, and also because my work also gives me so many ‘good feels’ - it makes me a better mother and gives my children a different outlook to what I had. Win, win if you ask me. Contact Britt www.wordshewrote.com.au or Instagram @wordshewrote I have a couple of branding spots open for the rest of the year and some regular client work available BACK

Madison Foley Australian trumpet player S1 Ep12 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Madison Foley is one of Melbourne’s most sought-after trumpet players. Madison began performing professionally from the age of 16 and Madison was a long-time touring member of alt-pop outfit Architecture in Helsinki and has worked with many of Australia’s greats such as Ash Grunwald, Jazzlab Orchestra and Big Scary . Upon returning to gig life after the birth of her son, Madison faced the pressures of not only performing as a new mum but the pressures of pumping breast milk during gigs. The immense challenges she faced were evident with Madison pumping in some thoroughly unsuitable locations and experiencing a lack of support from venues and organisers. She realised the best way to engage venues and fellow musicians was to create an infographic that highlighted the challenges. We also discuss the challenges of being pregnant and having a baby in the midst of the covid-19 pandemic, and the judgement faced by gigging mums - that dads don't have to contend with, and why she doesn't get caught up in "mum guilt" Connect with Madison on facebook and instagram Read Madison's The Mother Lode article and infographic here Find out more about Madison's bands Fools and JazzLab Orchestra Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Madison Foley. Madison is one of Melbourne's most sought after trumpet players. She started performing professionally at the age of 16 and has been a longtime touring member of alt pop outfit architecture in Helsinki. She's worked with many of Australia's greats such as Ashkelon world, jazz lab orchestra, and big scary. After returning to gig life after the birth of her son, Madison faced the pressures of not only performing as a new mum, but the pressure of pumping breast milk during gigs. The immense challenges she faced were evident with Madison pumping in some thoroughly unsuitable locations, and experiencing a lack of support from venues and organizers. She realized the best way to engage venues and fellow musicians was to create an infographic that highlighted the challenges. We chat not only about this infographic, but we also discussed the challenges of being pregnant and having a baby in the midst of the COVID 19 epidemic. The judgment faced by gigging mums that dads just don't have to contend with and why she doesn't get caught up in mum guilt. Welcome to the podcast Madison, it's lovely to have you today. Thanks for coming on. Thank you so much. I'm very happy to be very excited. So you played the trumpet. Tell us how you got into playing the trumpet. So my, my dad was a brass band still is a brass band leader in the community and Tom music at school. And so he came around to our primary school actually. And they had all the instruments out so they were starting a primary school band program. I was all of five years old at the time, I think maybe six. And I walk up to the guy, I'm precocious little six year old and I go hi, I want to know, which is the loudest instrument I want to play that one and so they had me a corner the rest is history. You know so going up through you know, started in primary school went through the local community bands and into high school played the whole way through. You know, I ended up doing it at university and you know, just never put it down again since I was five years old, basically from a couple of small breaks but yeah, that's pretty confident in my life. So what how many instruments do you play? Well look, well I played the trumpet Well, poorly a lot of them I can play very bad keyboard and very very bad bass. Nearly no mostly bad drums can play a little bit of trouble I can play most of the brass instruments I can play a bit of trombone a bit tube or a bit of French on although my trombone playing sisters would probably beg to differ. But you know, they've not none of them really get a lot of love. Now it's mostly just the trumpet. Because at some stage in your life, you kind of have to focus in on one thing which has never been my strong point. I've always been someone who does everything so well I can play the trumpet so I read that you started playing professionally when you were 16 So what sort of gigs we did you start off with what was sort of the stuff you were doing at that age. Um, so at 16 I was my mom would take me down to the pub to go and watch Friends of mine Johnny wonder Pat, who I still play with now all of what that 16 years later so that was they were some of my first gigs I go down to the pub and just sit in with them. I learned a few horn lines to some tunes. They just played covers on a Sunday afternoon and they you know, they thought it was great there was this you know little 16 year old super key and little Maddie going Hi, will you let me play with you. And then I also at school we formed a little jazz group and did you know gigs for like 50 bucks each or whatever, just whoever would hire us just playing some jazz standard. So which that group actually have gone on to all be quite prolific muses themselves. There's Cleo Rana, who now plays rock winds and tours around the world with Angus and Julia Stone as Nick Abbey who's over in mapa. Now and I think he teaches there and will Morrissey, who played He's with Vance Joy, and it's all just, you know, everyone from that little group just ended up going on to do amazing things. It's pretty cool to look back on that now. But you know, there those were mostly my 16 year old gigs either at the pub or at random corporate events that wanted to hire some kids really cheap, basically. Do you so what did that sort of been leading to? You mentioned other people that you've you were with did certain things What have you done then since since those 16 year old days. So since then, I, I studied at the VCA. So I did the improvisation course there, which is jazz. And, look, I'm basically, I'm a freelance music. So I will do literally anything that anyone calls me up to do so long as it sounds like a bit of fun, but there's a bit of money in it. So I've, you know, I've done small, small group jazz, I've done plenty of big bands. So currently play with the jazz live orchestra, and helped organize that one as well. Both Dan McKenzie big band, and a few others around the place. I was in the touring band for architecture in Helsinki for years and years, which was really, really fun, we got to play some amazing concerts to 1000s of people. And, you know, I've done plenty of corporate gigs, or a lot of corporate gigs. Plenty of them going around. My current my current project, which is probably the thing I'm most excited about, in all of my music career so far is a band called falls. And it's a 13 piece, Americana, pop, rock, everything. So extravaganza, it's just the most joyful band I've ever played in without any offense to any of the other major bands are playing. It's just, it's a, we call it the love cult, because everyone just loves each other and loves making music together. So that's been that's been getting really big and going really well. But of course, with COVID, a lot of our grand plans of keep falling away, we're supposed to be touring in about six weeks time, up to New South Wales and Queensland, to do Caloundra and, and a blues fest, and Nashville, but all of those things are not looking super likely. But hopefully, hopefully fools keeps getting out there and keeps getting some of those very cool gigs and planning tours overseas and everything. So it's exciting times for that. And that's nice, because that's something I get to be really creative with as well, all the other, you know, pop groups I've been in have been more, you know, this is the song, this is your home lines, play them now kind of thing. Whereas this one, I'm helping to write all the phone lines, we're writing songs off together. So it's a real kind of combined effort with 13 people, it's very, that'd be like controlled chaos, almost 13 People input. absolute chaos. It's hilarious, but it's just the most fun I have doing anything musically. It's so great. Oh, that's awesome. Because I guess you're doing a lot of corporate gigs, you'd sort of be doing the songs that people know you'd stick to your standards. And, you know, you'd be limited, I guess to what you could do. So this would just be like, you know, open the floodgates off you go have fun with that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, the jazz stuff is really creative as well. And, you know, if, if I was so inclined, you know, there's, there's plenty of creativity, I could follow in there, but I just don't have I don't have the focus to kind of sit down and write a whole set of tunes myself and you know, kind of get that all together. It just takes so much work. So it's something that I have done in the past, something I maybe would do in the future. But for now I'm kind of letting that one, you know, the the jazz side of things. I'm just doing the big bands and then letting the creativity come out in falls. Wow, that sounds awesome. So I've got to ask you, did you ever come to Mount Gambia for generations in jazz? Yes. As Gambia tragic I still am I've you know, I forced my school to let me take my big band there. That was like, now Gambia was a life that was I lived for me, you know, that early weekend, in May, every year, I went to Wellesley College, which was you know, a big kind of big band school, my dad actually took the band there. So it was all we ever talked about from like, you know, about October through to May everything was about generations in jazz and you know, going into there and getting like just getting exposed to all those amazing music shows on the stage was amazing. And then going back as an as an adult and as a teacher has been really lovely as well and kind of seeing it change and into something completely different now. It's been really nice to be part of that and share that with my students now and see them experience that joy. Pretty cool. It's growing so much. I remember mom taking me when we were kids, when they used to be Girl, I think her name was Kelly. And she played saxophone on on her head Sunday. And I remember seeing her play. We're only at this Robert Hillman Theatre, which I'm not sure if you're familiar with, but it's basically your normal size data. Yeah. And now it's grown to I don't know how many 1000s people, it's the biggest tent in the southern hemisphere. Like all this, it's gone bonkers. And it's so wonderful. We've missed a couple of years. I remember seeing Kelly early as well, I've played in a lot of women's section with her since she's one of the ways to play with the mice. So if you ever see her, tell her I remember seeing it when I was a little girl, I would have only been probably, I don't know, to 1213, maybe maybe a bit older. But yeah. It's such a generational thing. And my whole family are involved, you know, because my dad took the Wesley guy and now takes the St. Leonard's band, my sister was taking the law, the whole band, to just schools in Melbourne, my younger sister was taking the band from Caulfield, like it was you know, we had all of us there, my uncle was volunteering there. So when you you know, every year we get a family photo at generations in jazz, and just all have a laugh about the fact that the whole family is still there, we just can't get away from it. Just let me speak for union come together in my life, it's a real shame that hasn't been able to happen the past couple of years you been able to do any teaching during COVID, like you're you locked down in, in Melbourne, it's great. Because I've been basically I've been filling in for the girl that was filling in for me at the school, so I I've been able to, you know, do my teaching, go back look, after Sam come back, you know, do another class go back and kind of share those duties, which has been really nice. It's actually been quite handy for me in terms of the thing locked in. And, you know, I've got all my resources from last year. And I'm probably one of the few teachers who actually quite enjoys online teaching, I love the challenge of it, you know, having to find different ways to present it and different ways to engage students using the technology. And it's just incredible how much we can do from home, you know? Yeah, I've been doing a fair bit of teaching from there. And then all these other little bits and pieces of you know, everyone's getting into the lockdown recordings again. So I did one last week, I think, for all day for it, which is like a kid's band slash jazz band, which is pretty fun. Falls, we're doing another one this week. We were doing one every couple of weeks back last year, which was very fun. So you know, it's, it's kind of, it's nice to do things in a different way and just change it up a bit. So I like looking at the positives here. And you know, just different sets a different way of living, but I kind of like it. My partner and I were supposed to get married last year, and then we're going we're gonna go on a great European adventure. We put all this cash aside, we've been saving our butts off to, to do all of that. And none of it happened. So and then I was getting maternity leave. And he's, he's kind of back at work now. So we've been lucky throughout all of it that we haven't had to struggle with gigs being canceled and stuff. I mean, we've lost plenty of money. But yeah, it's we've been thought more fortunate than others. So you mentioned Sam then so tell me about your little person. Sorry, my little person he's about is just about 10 months old. He is the absolute life of my life is the best thing that's ever happened. You know, I was very happy and very fulfilled person before having a kid. But I always knew I wanted a baby. I always not always know so I was terrified of children until I was about 23. And then I actually looked after one of my trumpet idols Ingrid Jensen in New York. I actually helped babysit her baby a few times just through you know, mutual friends and I was there and I didn't have a job and ended up kind of nannying for a couple of weeks. And I was like, actually, I love children. This is amazing. And from then on, it was like, Alright, this is something I want to do in life. So then, yeah, being with my wonderful partner, Carlo. I mean, we knew each other back when I was probably 1718 Just hanging out in the music crowds because he's a saxophone and woodwind player. He does all the jazz gigs and stuff but more so now he does in musical theater. So he plays for all Big shows. So we just knew each other through mutual friends for years and years, and then actually, jokingly got engaged about 10 years ago, I called the bouquet and I said, I'll call I don't have anyone to marry. And he said, Don't worry about it, I'll marry you. And I know, okay, and then, you know, like another, like, five or so years down the track. We ended up, you know, finding each other and going, Oh, this is a pretty cool little thing. And, you know, as things went along, and you know, from the start, I was like, I want to have kids just so, you know, this is a thing, and we were both very, you know, by very happy with that path. And then yeah, we kind of decided to, you know, not stop trying, but you know, not prevent anything and just see what happens, just throw caution to the wind. And, you know, lo and behold it a year and a half later, little Sam came into the world. So we found out we were pregnant, just at the very start of COVID. So it was kind of pretty scary times. And, you know, it was a bit of a surprise, because like, yeah, we've been going along for however long and going okay, like, you know, it's not gonna happen yet. That's all right. And we've been planning our wedding. So at the start of last year, we actually went, you know, what, maybe this year isn't a good time, maybe we should like, wait a little bit longer. And you know, until the timings a bit better. And as soon as we said that, of course. They got me pregnant. And yeah, then had, you know, nine months later, we had little Sam and so he's, you know, he's crawling now he's walking. Now he talks a lot like his mum. And like his dad, really. But he looks like me. So he's, he's good. Because of the pregnancy found out on the first of March, which, you know, thinking back to the timeline, that was kind of when things were starting to creep out of China and into other countries. It hadn't quite come to Australia yet. There was only maybe a couple weeks shy of that. But it was on its way. I remember coming out of staff briefing in the morning. So I was working. At the time, I was working full time as a head of Performing Arts. And I was also studying part time, 20 hours a week and doing gigs as well. So I was pretty busy. And I just I just handed in an assignment on the day, we found out I'd handed in my second last assignment, so I was exhausted. And we came out of a briefing like the next day and, you know, our, our principal and said to us, Look, we have to start being really careful, this thing is going to come to us, it's going to get very serious. And I was walking with a colleague and she said, Oh man, my my sister in law's pregnant, how much would it suck to be pregnant right now, and I just started bawling my eyes out on my way to my house drove off is just cry. Because I just thought, this is such an unknown. We don't know what this thing is. We don't know what it means for pregnancy for you know, an unborn baby, for a young baby, we just don't know. And so it was a pretty challenging time, mentally and emotionally. You know, and then in the weeks to come, you know, I had a lot of gigs that I just, I was so scared of what would happen if I got COVID. And it turned into almost like an anxiety about you know, if I get COVID The baby's not going to be okay. So I had to cancel geeks, but I couldn't tell anyone I had to I was working from home for school well before anybody else was, but I couldn't tell anyone why I couldn't come in from meetings. I couldn't come in, you know, it was all very, like, keep me away from everyone. And my principal was really supportive of that. But I think my pregnancy was probably the worst kept secret in Melbourne. Everyone just just looked at me when I okay. Yeah, we figure why you can't come in, but nobody can say anything. Yeah, so it was tricky, because we had to like, you know, keep up pretenses of I've just got a pre existing condition, but everyone knew exactly what was going on. So yeah, you know, then moving along, it was it was tricky, kind of going through and not being able to have family around during the lock downs. I mean, my My poor mom, you know, didn't really get to see me pregnant very much. I just send her photos all the time. And that was that was really tough for her as well to because she lives all the way over the other side of town. There was no way we could even catch up for walks or anything like my sisters live close, Carlos family live close, but my parents live quite far away. And so just not getting to see them. I think I didn't see my dad through the whole or maybe once through the whole pregnancy. It was really tough and definitely took it out. I'll emotionally and in, played on those anxieties a lot. And then I've got a bit sick later on in the pregnancy I got had gestational diabetes, which was an it was a late diagnosis, and I had to be admitted to hospital. And it was all of these things, and it kind of all just snowballed. And, you know, it was, yeah, by the time he came, I was ready to not be pregnant anymore. But then at the same time, you kind of look back and you go, you get to those last few days, and you go, Oh, I kind of like him being in there. And like feeling the cakes, and I like, you know, not having a baby to look after 24 hours a day just yet, you know. But yeah, we ended up ended up getting induced because of the gestational diabetes. And they thought that he was already four kilos at 36 weeks old, or 36 weeks gestation. So they were like, We need to get this child out. Otherwise, he's going to destroy, he did anything. He destroyed me coming out, they had to use the forceps. And, you know, he was he was in all kinds of all kinds of stress and whatnot, but still managed to have a vaginal delivery, which was wonderful. And had the epidural already. So I was having an absolute ball in that room. I just like, I got in there. And I was like, put this thing in my back auto kit as early as possible. I just don't want to feel a thing. And I'll tell you what, we were sitting there. We had disco lights going. We had like people on FaceTime. We were playing games, we're watching TV, we're hanging out chatting a few naps, by the time you just like, ah, be cool, that's fine. It's great, I would highly recommend doing it. I want to ask you, I have never played a winning strip. I'm a singer. So I struggled a lot when I was pregnant, breathing and getting the air in the diaphragm. Really? Was that an issue for you like physically being able to play? Absolutely. I mean, I think in some ways, I'm kind of grateful for having been in lockdown for a lot of the pregnancy, especially the lighter part for that reason, because I didn't ever have to push myself to a point where I went, No, I can't do this anymore. Because all I was doing was, like I said, like ISO recording, it's kind of thing. And so I could do as many tapes of them as I needed, I could do them in a few shots. And I was like if you say that the law schools recording, I had call it pregnant Tammy and continue to be like I mean, it was hard enough, just going for a walk around the block, let alone getting enough air to play the trumpet. So I think if if I hadn't been in normal life trying to do that, I think there probably would have come a point where I just would have had to go no more. So it's kind of nice that I never had to make that decision and and push it to that point. I just got to maybe 30 about 34 weeks and I just mind you this column I can't do anymore. That's fine. I've gotten up I don't need to I was still playing for work up until that stage just playing along with my students and whatnot. But yeah, definitely the breathing thing is hard. Luckily, you know, as soon as the baby's gone, like that all goes you know, your organs move back into place, and it's like they're so similar singing and brass playing. It's all about the diaphragm and all about the, you know, the way that you use it air and the speed of the air and everything just would be really hard. But I've read about people playing trumpet up until 3839 weeks, you know, I think it can happen, but I think those people are very special. I first came across you on the motherlode website. And you've done this amazing article and infographic about the challenges of pumping while you're digging, and I just related to that instantly, and I was like, oh my god, I get this totally I understand. I've pumped in some wacky places and some weed times and I thought, This is wonderful. Someone's actually done something about it. So tell us how that came about. Well, I'm trying to do something about it. You know, it's it's such it's probably the biggest challenge I've faced as a parent. Which sounds like it sounds so trivial, but people don't understand how hard it is and how demoralizing it is to spend all of your break sitting in dingy toilet stall, trying to keep all your beautifully sterilized equipment still sterile when you know the pits all over the floor. And it's like, it's really tough. It kind of came about I have when so when I was pregnant through lockdown, I had to really seek out some opportunities to talk to people who are also pregnant. And it just so happened that there were seven other female users in Melbourne, who I knew who were also pregnant. And like so one kind of emailed me and then said, Hey, Maddie, I saw you're expecting a baby. So a week. And then another one that hey, Maddie, yeah, we're also pregnant. All right, like, and so it just kind of, they all started writing to me, and I went, Wait a second, maybe we could turn this into a group. So we started our, our, what do we call it music moms group. And it was a, like a Facebook Messenger group, pregnancy support group, we do zooms kind of every week or two, and just talk about what was going on how we were feeling shared, you know, experiences of pregnancy, all of our fears about, you know, post, you know, giving birth and what that would look like, how we were going, you know, everything and it was just the most beautiful group, and they still are the most beautiful group of humans who just kind of pump each other up and keep each other going. And so now it's turned into from a pregnancy group, everyone's now had their babies, and it's a, it's a, you know, parents group, and we catch up, you know, pretty locked down, we we catch up every so often we get our Barb's together, they have a play, we have a talk or a drink, or beer or whatever we can do. All the guys come along, as well. They're mostly musicians, as well. And so it's turned into this amazing kind of support group. So when I was, you know, early on, when doing lots of gigs, through that kind of, you know, summer, you know, February, March, April, May season when things were really busy. And I was going out, you know, two, maybe three nights a week, and, you know, pumping in all kinds of places. And it was just feeling so hard. I mean, I got to the point of wanting to either give up and just, you know, go with formula, or, you know, if I'm doing it felt overwhelming, you know, having to take all of the equipment, you know, you're in these, you know, you're in a nice dress for the gig and you have to get the whole dress off, you have to put everything on you have to strap the things in, you have to plug them in, you have to turn the thing on, then you have to sit there for 15 minutes, then you have to wash everything. And then you have to get all back into your little box and into the bag. And the whole process takes the entire break if not longer. And I just so I'd be writing to my news. Oman's groups just being like, guys, is anyone else finding this really hard? And it was it was a shared experience that we were all going? How, like, how can we make this any better? How can we then it's so hard to, you know, keep pumping and keep doing this in the way that we're doing it. Some of the mums are amazing. And they will just like pull out all their gear and pump in front of anyone and sit there in the front row during the set break or whatever, and do it for me. I couldn't I couldn't get across. I ran having like literally having my nipples out in front of people. I'm very happy breastfeeding in front of people because there's a baby's head there, you know, but pumping feels a lot more exposed. And so I tried to think about how we could possibly just inform people of what you know what, what it is why it's important how they can make it easier. I was inspired by a Linda chintzy, who's in our museum moms group. She's going back. She's the leading Moulin Rouge. And she was saying you know that the the company have made all these amazing accommodations. She's got a five month old, I think I'm really sorry, forgot that wrong. But she's got a little Holly rose. And they've made all of these accommodations to make sure that she can keep pumping and have Holly there to feed and have her partner there to bring her in and all of that. And I thought, you know if they can make those accommodations, maybe other people can do. So I was doing I did three gigs for four gigs for the mid summer festival in Melbourne. And I just put it out there and I just wrote to the people who are organizing the gig and said, Hey, I'm a breastfeeding mom. Here's some things that would be really good if I could have my own room to pump in or just a private room with a door that I could just say to people hey, I'm going into pump right now. You know if I could have a fridge to store the milk in if I could have access to a sink so these are just all the things that the the IDA or the you know, Fair Work actually say that you need to have in your workplace, but obviously it's harder when your work pace changes every week. And you know what? They came back and they said yes, and they they gave me those things and I went ah But this is possible. It's not always possible. But it is possible a lot of the time for people to actually organize these things. And they were beautiful about it. They had my name on the door and they have my partner's name. They'd put everything in there that I could possibly need. And I just, I thought, let's try and make this people know that they can ask for these things. And so I started to become more vocal about it. And then, using those new moms groups, I actually workshopped and found out what they were finding hard, what their suggestions are that we could put into it and came up with this infographic that basically just says, Here, here's a bunch of things you can do. Firstly, here's why it's important, we need to keep our milk supply up. And to do that, you have to pump every three to four hours, we need to be able to have a space to do it, it takes 25 minutes, at least, you know. And so here's a list of things that you can do as a bandleader, as a venue manager, to make sure that people who are pumping or breastfeeding can feel comfortable to do it at your venue or at your gig. And the the response when I put it out to Facebook was just amazing. Like I was overwhelmed, I thought a few people would sit and be like, oh, cool, that's great. I might borrow that and show it to some people like it got shared over to New Zealand, it got shared all around Melbourne and, and a bunch of different places. And I think people have really taken it on board. I know a lot of people that I work with have been like, you know, we're going into a set and the set time has been changed. They've been like, hey, Maddie, if you need to leave early to go and pump, you know, that's fine, but set time has changed. Just leave whenever you have to. So they're making those accommodations. I mean, I really do, but it's nice to just be considered in that way and know that we have the option to like, hey, if I really need to park right now I can just walk off and go kind of thing. So it's it's been quite a journey and then during the motherlode motherlode interview was amazing as well, Georgia fields is incredible. And you know, made it all sounds so lovely and succinct or my you know, ramblings but it's, it's been a real journey. And I kind of coming over the other side of it now, you know, being 10 months old. You know, he's he's getting to the stage where he only has like, a few feeds a day. And it's like, wow, I survived that I survived that having to pump and having to feed every three hours, when those days where I was out at a gig out of town, and I was, you know, out of the house for 12 hours. It's like, it's a lot. And I feel quite, I feel quite proud of myself and all the other moms that have done that and been through it and made it you know, made it work. Yeah, absolutely. No good on you. I was so impressed when I saw it. And it probably I can think of times when it would have come in really handy because I, I guess I never thought to ask it was never it never occurred to me that that I could ask it was just like, well, this is your thing. So you need to sort it out. I never sort of thought I never Yeah, it just never occurred to me. So well done you round of applause. On the interview with the motherlode, you said something like times when you've been pumping in a really yucky toilet stall and, you know, close to tears, and you wondered, was it worth it? Probably not at that moment, but later did you sort of you obviously thought that it was because you kept going it was really important to you to be able to maintain that milk supply for your baby. But also, you know, it was important for you to keep playing and to to keep that part of your life really active as well. Absolutely. I, I, I know that I'm a better mom, because I have my music as well. I really feel that deep down in my soul that they're having the music especially, you know, and like doing the corporate gigs and everything, it's a bit of fun, you get a bit of money, it's pretty good. But they're things like falls and those jazz gigs that really feed my soul. I come back home and I'm completely revitalized as a parent, you know, getting that time away from Sam, who is the most important and the most beautiful thing in my whole entire world. But getting the time away from him, actually makes me appreciate him so much more. I mean, I was he was six weeks old when I did my first recording session back. And they were I was out of the house for maybe eight hours. I mean, I hadn't been away from him for that long, obviously. And it was you know, I thought I would really struggle. But it was it was an amazing recording session, syncing south with falls and I came home and I just felt I felt like myself again. After six weeks of being completely attached to this small human and just being at his whim, whatever he needed. He needed. Get on that moment. And, you know, I got to go away, step away from it and come back. And I was so grateful for that time. And I'm also so grateful that my amazing partner Carlo, you know, does everything he's, he's not scared and looking after the baby out or you know, and he's been hands on from the very start. I mean, because there was no theater, you know, for the first eight months of Sam's life Carlo has been with us, aside from his teaching pretty much full time. So we've been able to really manage that between the two of us. But yeah, they're having the gigs to go to, I think keeps me sane. You know, before I went back to teaching, it was the thing that kind of made me feel like me again. And I think that's so important for, for creative parents to still have those things I, I was never going to put down my trumpet and not play as a parent. And also, I'm a really stubborn human being. And if someone tells me like, Oh, you're not going to want to play much once here, once you have your baby, you're going to want to just stay home. I was like, I heard shorts your show. Cool. Cool. Cool. All right, watch me go. And so now I'm gonna be a bit more determined than before, I think I've been practicing even more than I was, before I had a baby, because I'm just like, You know what, I want to go out there and show people that being a mum. I mean, being a parent in general, but especially being a mum does not stop you from being an amazing musician, and amazing artists and amazing teacher, whatever it is that you do. It's another thing in your life that is very, very important. And yes, your priorities change. But it doesn't stop you being amazing at what you do in that moment. And I've had people kind of, you know, second guests that I've had people be like, oh, so all your backup gigs. Oh, really? That's, that's soon? Oh, that's interesting. And you know what I just say to them, I'm like, why wouldn't I be? Actually, I think you'll find I'm paying better than I was beforehand, so that you've put so much effort into, like all the background, they just see you at the gig, they haven't seen you prepare everything at home, have the milk ready, you know, do everything you need to do to make sure you can do this gig, because the similar thing happened to me. I did my first gig that we did the when he was seven weeks old. And same thing someone said to me, oh, where's your baby? And I was just like, if you knew what I have, I've moved heaven and earth to make this day possible. So I was playing up at Coonawarra, which is about an hour away. And I was there for about five hours. So I was away from him for a while. thought you've got no idea. I That's my that is my pet peeve. And people ask it in a nice way. And they ask it with the most like sincerity and they go, oh, where's the baby? And that's one question that I just can't stand because it just kind of grates on me because it makes you feel like, oh, I should be looking after, should I be looking after the baby, we're like, you know, it's like the babies with his dad, he's fine. You've done so much to be able to, you know, go into a gig now isn't just like you know, or you've done your practice on the days before you just you know, get your tribe and walk out the door. Going to a gig now means scheduling time in for practice every day leading up to it to make sure that you're on top of it, which I reckon I'm more on top of my gigs now because I have to schedule things I have to make that time doing all the pumping, getting the bottles ready, getting the food ready, making sure the babysitters sorted, making sure everyone knows where everything is, you know, what's the bedtime routine? You know, have I fed the kid now? Should I feed him right before I go? It's such a different thing now. And, and for people to be questioning that and be like, oh, where's the baby? It's something that really great for me. Maybe I should make another infographic about not asking that question. I think I just I'm very passionate about you know, I am you know, Loki quite a feminist. And one of the things that really bugs me is, you know, when I think about would people ask a dad about that? Would they say do you know, is their dad guilt? Or, you know, Dad comes into a gig gig or goes to work and someone says, oh, where's your baby? That doesn't happen, you know? Or someone says, Oh, you're back getting already Wow, that's amazing, like, hold on you. That just doesn't happen. And so you know, the mom guilt thing. I think dad should be feeling it just as much and I'm lucky enough that my partner feels a lot of dad guilt. He comes home, you know, when he goes out to work and he calls me and he says, Can you send me a photo? I miss him? You know? And I think that the the feeling that it should be all on mums to be there and to be looking after everything. It's not fair. It's not equitable. Having said that, you know, we do of course, we miss our kids. Like, I miss Sam so much when I go out to a gig, I do miss him and I look at photos and I show everyone photos. You know, I miss him and I go, Oh, but no part of me ever feels like oh, I should be at home. It's not fair to him, because it wouldn't be fair to him if I was at home all the time, and I was a sad person because of it. And so that's why I just think you've got to look at the balance of things. Yeah, he's gonna miss me for a few hours, but I'm going to be a better mom because of it. And I really, truly believe that making, like doing the work that we do anything that makes you feel happy and passionate, you know, that makes you a better person and a better parent. And so you can't feel guilty for taking that time. And I really do I look at music completely differently. Now, you know, when I go out to do my gigs, it's not like, we're gonna go do a gig. Now it's like, this is my time, this is my time to do something that makes me feel really good, and nourishes my soul. And that's going to make me feel better about being at home. So, I don't know, if I answered the question at all, but my take on mom guilt, you know, don't feel it just don't cuz we're allowed to go out and do these things to our souls to, it's so important. I think moms often get put in until a man box. And people go, you should be looking after your kid, you know, you shouldn't be doing things for yourself. And that's that, that kind of thrown on my heart, like, you know, we completely surrender were expected to completely surrender everything about ourselves to be apparent. But it's just not feasible in the long run, if you want to be a happy and whole person. I am a trumpet player. And I'm passionate about that. I'm a music teacher. And I'm very passionate about that, too. And I'm a mom, and I'm very passionate about that. And I can still be all of those three things. And they don't have to, I mean, they're going to impact each other. Of course they are, but they don't have to cancel each other out. You can't only be one of those. I mean, you don't have to just be one of those things. And, you know, I think keeping my identity has, like I said earlier, it's kept me sane, it's it kept me feeling like parenting is the most amazing thing on earth. And it truly is. Because I've been able to keep that part of myself and share with Sam to like, he's coming out to a bunch of gigs. He's got his little headphones on. I think the first thing the first gig he came out to potentially was New Year's Eve, and myself and Carlo were playing together. So my mom and my stepdad came along and held sat there, and he watched us play. And he of course, would have had no idea was going on because he was only like eight weeks old. But playing for Sam felt amazing. It just felt like a completely different experience to be able to share my craft with him, you know. And so I want that I want him to grow up knowing that that's a part of me, and also having that be a part of him and want him to be proud of me to I want him to see me on stage and see his dad on stage and go, Hey, that's, that's my mom. That's my dad, how cool is that? I just really want him to think I'm cool. That's what? Well, my musicians as well. So you know, I always saw them on stage. And it was just, I was so proud. I thought they were the coolest people ever. I was like, Oh my gosh, look at that singing and dancing around. It's so cool. And, you know, I just think it's such an amazing thing for kids to grow up seeing their parents, you know, pursuing their like, the things that make them happy and doing it publicly as well as even better. Did it surprise you? You know, there's been so much change in terms of how breastfeeding has been accepted over the years. It's taken, you know, it's taken a while. But breastfeeding is commonly accepted pretty much everywhere now. Even if it might annoy someone. But Did it surprise you then that the pumping of the breast milk was just no one had any idea about it? It? It surprised me because I didn't know anything about it. Yeah. So I had Sam and I like I knew about breast pumps. And I knew that you you could pump milk so that you can feed them from a bottle. That's all I knew. I didn't know about maintaining supply I didn't know about you know the supply and demand part of breastfeeding. I just thought the milk was always there and you just get it out when you want it kind of thing. And so finding out that this would be part of you know, leaving the house and leaving Sam alone was that I'd have to be doing this pumping. It was actually quite upsetting. Because you know, when I started the pump, I was like wow, this is pretty intense. It takes a lot of effort to Get everything on. And then you know, when I first started pumping, nothing was coming out. And so I really had to work on relaxing and you know, looking at pictures of Sam to try and you know, get the letdown happening. And then getting out and talking to people and finding out then that they knew nothing about it too, I actually wasn't surprised that they knew nothing, because I knew nothing about it. I'd never seen somebody pump before. I'd never talked to people about pumping before. So me being the loudmouth. I am, I went out and started telling everyone all about it, I get to a gig and be like, right, guys, I need to pump it this time. I need to pump it this time. Here's why I need to do it. You want to see the equipment? Look, here's some of my milk. Isn't this amazing? Like, how cool was the human body? And you know, a lot of people just said, Wow, I had no idea. But it didn't surprise me because neither did I. It's not really talked about everyone knows about breastfeeding. But not everyone knows about the pumping side of it. You know, or Yeah, it's, it's kind of it almost feels like it's a bit taboo. It's in the background, it's things that people don't see. And, you know, I've got a great friend of mine who had to exclusively pump for six months. And she said, by the end, she'd just walk around wearing a pumpkin no matter who was around because you just have to when you when you're exclusively pumping every three hours, it just takes up so much of your time and so much of your life. So it'd be great for that to become a little bit more visible. And that was part of you know, me getting this out there was trying to help people make it feel more normal. Hmm. Yeah, that's great. When you did find out about the effort that was involved, did you ever have a moment where you just thought, Oh, it's just it's too much. I just did you ever have that moment where you thought now I can't do it. Like, it would have only been fleeting moments, I think, once I was pumping at and no human being to this venue in Melbourne, the night cat, it's known as one of like, the dingy highest venues, but also super fun. But you know, those are the nightcap toilets. So the way I used to go as a 17 year old when I was too drunk to like, you know, open a door and be like, you know, and I was pumping in there and sitting on the thing and just going, Oh, I can't touch anything. And I was like, this sucks. This sucks. Like, should I just do formula, but I really, I really just wanted to, and it was almost like a challenge within myself. I just wanted to see how long I could exclusively feed for and, you know, I just felt I feel so privileged that I was able to breastfeed, and not everyone can, you know, for medical reasons for you know, mental reasons, mental health reasons, there are so many people that just can't do it. And I you know, it came so easy to me, I was like, I'm not, I'm not going to take this for granted. It's amazing that I can give my kid the very best nutrition in the whole world. For him. There's nothing better than breast milk. I'm gonna make the most of this. And so I you know, I had my moments of wanting to give up, but they were fleeting. And you know, I kept going with it. And I'm still going with it now I still periods about, Gosh, about six times a day at 10 months old, which is a lot. But you know, we just do it. And it's, I've not ever been, you know, some people. You know, they say I love breastfeeding so much like it's a really beautiful bond between me and my baby. I'm not one of those people. I don't know why I didn't get that gene that was like, Oh, this is so beautiful and loving. I do it because it's easy and because it nourishes him and you know there are bits of it that I like it's just a lot easier mostly. You know, but we've we've kept going and I'm really glad that I did. Like you don't yeah. There's a Fire Island article on the motherlode of he's sitting on your lap, got the trumpet and it's absolutely beautiful. Well, my partner's in that photo as well. He was he was filling in with full so the two of us were at rehearsal. We were like What are we going to do we take the kid with us we put on his little headphones and he came into rehearsal. It was actually it was a pretty special moment for him to be you know, for my my whole family to be there with my full family. It was it was really lovely. And that's that photo is actually you know, the first one on social media of him is we haven't put any photos on but that just felt so special. We need it to share it. It is lovely to be able to continue that family tradition like your parents involved in their you and involving your son I think that's just beautiful, musics awesome. Always been such a such a positive thing in my world in every way possible that it just it feels like something that I want him to experience as well not necessarily to become a, you know, not to become a professional musician, but just to be able to have all of those amazing social skills that come from working in a team, you know, the the cognitive skills that come from learning music, and just the joy that comes from making music. I mean, if if you can, if you can do it, why wouldn't you? Why would you share that with your family around the piano when we were kids and dad would be playing, playing songs to us. And we just thought it was the most amazing thing ever. And I looked back at that, and I go, I'm so glad that we were introduced to music at such a young age and given the option and it was always an option, but we were given the option to pursue it in whatever way we wanted to. And we all ended up as brass players doing music degrees. Sorry, dad, he wanted doctors and lawyers. So he started the the trend of the brass in your family. Then my oldest sister started on the trombone. And then I did the trumpet. I'm the middle one. And then the younger one started on the corner as well. But I actually when I was in about year seven, I got the album's which is like the trumpet book. It's the book, you know. And I sat down and tried to play some of it with my poor little sister who was only in grade four at the time going, oh my god, I can't play there's nothing you just gotta you just play it you just do it like that. I wasn't a very good teacher then clearly. And the next day she put down a trumpet never picked it up again and picked up the trombone instead. I'm not playing the trumpet anymore, but it made me feel bad about it. Find matches a trombone player. Scottish philosopher have a lot of guilt about that. You talked about mom guilt. I've got sister guilt. Very good at the trombone now though, so it's okay. Maybe it was meant to be maybe that was her path in life you just had to guide her slightly she doesn't usually follow in my footsteps so you had to try other ones. Also want to ask you you said before about you, your muse Imams? Did you find because you were friends before you had children? Did you find them? Did you find that that there was little comparison with your muse? Oh mums group. Absolutely like that the museum moms group is super supportive. Everyone, you know, it's very real, we write about all of our challenges, you know, we write about all the really bad things, and we tell each other about the good things too. And everybody is like, there's no comparison, there's no, you know, oh, my, my child seems better than yours. Otherwise, I'd be losing pretty bad. I'm very, very high, you like it, you're right, like being already being friends. I mean, some of the a couple of the girls in the group, you know, I didn't know so well beforehand. And now we're also close, we, you know, text pretty much daily and just build each other up and just make each other feel like everything's okay. And everything's going to be okay. And I'm really lucky. Absolutely. My local parents group, there's a couple of girls in there who have become, you know, some of my closest friends, you know, and we, we really look after each other as well, you know, or living on the same street and, you know, supporting each other in that way too. So I think you can get lucky with the people you end up with, you can get unlucky, it just really depends. And I've had absolutely lucked out in finding, I even have a third mother's group. Another one. Everyone's just really amazing and supportive, and no one ever makes me feel like what my child is doing isn't okay. And I think that's such an important part of being, I think, especially among, you know, because we tend to be the ones kind of, you know, and this is generalizing, and it's not in every situation depends on your circumstances and the set of parents and whatnot. But we do tend to be the ones who kind of know where the milestones are meant to be. And we're the ones waking up generally every night if we're breastfeeding all through the night to feed the baby. So we tend to be the ones that end up getting sucked into those comparisons and those kind of competitions. And I think just being really mindful of making other people a never feel bad about what their child can or can't do. That be not, you know, not saying my child can do this to try and you know, show off but to be like, Hey, let's all rejoice in this together, my child can do this what new, you know, what is your child during this week that's really amazing and really special. Because I think it can turn into a bit of a competition. And that's, that makes me sad. But I'm so grateful that I ended up with all people around me who are just beautiful, and supportive and amazing, and I love them all so much. Life after baby really has made me kind of consider how much free time I had beforehand, even though I was working, like I was doing like 70 hour weeks, and still getting to the gym three or four times a week and still had free time outside of that. And now it's kind of like, probably the biggest surprise has been just how time consuming a child is, you know, I kind of thought you put them down for a nap. And then they'd sleep for a couple of hours and you get stuff done. And then you come back to them. And my child, beautiful Sam, he is the most incredible child on the world does not like sleep, I think he's allergic to sleep. So you know, his naps are sometimes only 15 minutes. You know, if we get really lucky, it's an hour, it really, really lucky. I think once or twice, he's done an hour and a half on his own. And I think, you know, the big thing as a musician has had to be prioritizing and scheduling. So sometimes now I have to practice the trumpet with a mute in at 11:30pm. Because that's the only time I get to do it. And I think, you know, everyone said to me beforehand, like you, you you weren't even know what you used to do with all your free time. And I was like, Dude, I'm pretty busy. Like, I know what it feels like to not have free time. Now after having a kid it's like, I know what it feels like to never have a moment to yourself. Because literally now any. And I say literally in the actual way it was meant to be used. If I have free time I'm off into the studio to practice. If he actually goes down for a nap, it's practice time. And so now I pretty much don't ever have any time to myself without the horn on my face. And that's been that's been a bit of a shock to me. I think, you know, I would I would have loved to know that beforehand that it really is that intense. And I'm sure it will get easier as we go along. And as he gets older, you know that then if we add another one to the mix, we go through the whole thing again, and then it's even more chaotic, I'm sure. But yeah, I think that's probably been one of the most surprising things as a as an artist and a mum, kind of just how much I need to use any little scrap of free time to make sure that I can still maintain my craft. Yeah, when I used to sit down and do half an hour of practice, I reckon probably 20 minutes of that was like looking on Facebook or, you know, rearranging my books or, you know, playing with a little thing on the trumpet. Now, if I sit down to practice for half an hour, I am practicing hard for half an hour, because I know that there's not going to be another half hour or if there is that I've got to use that half hour really well, you know. So it really does change the way you kind of focus and knuckle down things because there's just no, there's no room for faffing. You just can't. Alright, yeah, laughing is faffing is canceled the moment that child comes out of you. Sometimes my sisters come over to look after Sam just so I can go and practice if I'm having a particularly hard day they live close, which is lucky. But I'll just be like, Hey, guys, I haven't been able to get anything done today. And they will just come over, they'll sit with them. You know, for an hour or two, I'll get some washing done, I'll jump in the studio or have a shower or whatever it is and, and having that support has made it all possible. You know, you just need people you need, you know, you need a village to make it all work. I'm so lucky that I have an amazing village around me. You know, and I know it would be harder for people that don't and I know of people who don't have family here and it's bloody hard. And I just I don't know how they do it. You know, single parents, I am absolutely in awe of anybody who raises a child alone. I can't even fathom how hard that would be. You know, so I'm very privileged to be able to make it work. And I feel I feel very lucky for that. So there's some really exciting stuff coming up with falls. Hopefully we'll be doing a little mini east coast to the start of October may or may not happen. But then also we've got a gig in Maine in in mid October and another one in Brunswick, I think in November. So that will be very fun. Jazz lab orchestra is about to do recording for a new album, and they play at the jazz lab every month as well. COVID permitting. We've lost our first yard originally our last few unfortunately. But yeah, that's the main things coming up. They get on board. Madison, I've thoroughly enjoyed chatting with you. It has been so much fun. You've given me lots of laughs today. All the best with your full ski and well done again for opening people's eyes to the challenges of pumping and returning to gigs. So yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Alison. It's been an absolute pleasure to be on the show. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet

Sally Rippin Australia's highest selling female author + illustrator S2 Ep71 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Sally Rippin is a best-selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her 3 children. Sally is Australia’s highest-selling female author and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults and adults. Her widely popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than ten million copies in eighteen countries. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in South-East Asia. As a young adult she studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai and Hangzhou, which inspired her first novel Chenxi and the Foreigner. which she started writing when she was 19. Sally loves to write stories with heart and includes characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally has written and illustrated books for babies, children, young adults and now adults. Sally's books for children include the popular Billie B Brown and Hey Jack! series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released, called Wild Things, it is about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don’t. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school; a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time. She couldn’t have been more wrong. Her son’s dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers, and labelled as ‘difficult’ by an education system that couldn’t easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was – almost – too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September Sally released a picture book, co-written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hull, called Come Over To My House. Inside, readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as Deaf or disabled. The first of its kind, this picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and home. Resources for parents Find Sally website Podcast website / instagram Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. My guest this week is Sally rippin. Sally is a best selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her three children. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in Southeast Asia. As a young adult. She studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai. And this inspired her first novel Chen Zhi and the foreigner, which she started writing when she was just 19. Sally is Australia's highest selling female author, and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults, and now adults. Her wildly popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than 10 million copies in 18 countries. Sally loves to write stories with heart, and characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally's books for children include the popular Billy B Brown, and hijack series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released called wild things. It's about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school, a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time, but she couldn't have been more wrong. Her son's dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers and labeled as difficult by an education system that couldn't easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was almost too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September, Sally released a picture book co written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hall called come over to my house. Inside readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as deaf or disabled. The first of its kind. This picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and our home. The music you'll hear on today's podcast is from my ambient music, New Age trio called LM joy and that comprise comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. Thank you again for listening. And I hope you enjoyed today's chat with Sally. Welcome to the podcast. Sally. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome you and to meet you today. It's really exciting to be here. Thanks, Alison. You're a best selling author. That's pretty exciting. And you've been writing for 25 years you've written 100 books. That's quite prolific, isn't it? Like? I mean, my max four books a year give or take? Yeah, well, look, there have been some really busy periods. But also, I guess what I probably want to say and I think a lot of artists out there would relate to this is that I've been published for 25 years, but I've been writing since I was little Yeah, I was a kid that was always in a corner reading books drawing, making my own books. So yeah, so I think I think I'm sure you imagine that that's something that a lot of us would say and I suppose it's the same for you too, is that it still feels a little bit surreal for me, and I don't think of myself as a six successful author or a best selling author because really, all I'm doing is exactly what I did when I was a little kid and I get paid for it and I can do it all day every day. So it doesn't Feel like a job. It just kind of feels like this incredible dream come true. Yeah, that is awesome, isn't it to be able to just literally live out your dream every day? And yeah, cuz that's something I do talk to my guests about, like, how did it start? Where did it come from? Were you influenced as a child growing up? Did you have people around you that were really heavily into pork? Yeah, definitely. So we moved around a lot as kids, because of my dad's job we moved about every two years. And we mainly grew up in Southeast Asia a little bit of time in England as well. But the most important aspect of that is that we would spend a lot of time in hotel rooms on airplanes in airports. And this was long before the internet, or iPads or anything like that. So my mom would have to give us books to read. And when we had run out of books, because they're heavy to carry around, she would just give us pencils and paper, and we'd make our own books. And I really credit that along with a couple of fantastic English teachers and art teachers as being the support that gave me the confidence to think that it was something more than just something I would do at my craft table. But something that I could protect, potentially do that other people would want to look at as well. So I think I was really, really lucky that I had adults around me that believed in me supported in me, teachers that would read my stories out in class or at teachers that would really push me to go further. So yeah, I think that was a huge part of of me just having the confidence to go ahead. Having said that, my dad wasn't so supportive of me turning out to be an artist. For him. That was a little bit like saying, I was dropping out. Because I was good at school. And so and he he went to a very, not a very wealthy school in Adelaide, you're in South Australia, I just saw and he was the only kid in his year level to go on to university was quite a rough school he went to, and he went on to be a civil engineer. So he worked really hard to put his daughters to a private school. And when I told him I was going to be an artist, he was like, he just couldn't believe it. It was like you're going to waste that private school education unbecoming. Inadequate him that was like saying I was just dropping out. But he's so proud of me now, you know, and I think, partly, it was encouraging courage meant of my mum that supported me. But I also think there was part of the grist to the mill. That was important coming from my dad, too, because I think I wanted to prove something to him to myself that, no, it wasn't just this kind of alternative way of saying that I didn't want to go and get a job. It was actually odd is that people that work hard, you know, they're dedicated to what they do. And, you know, and potentially they can make a living from it. So in some ways, maybe if I'd only had support, and no one kind of with some nobody to push up against. Maybe I wouldn't have driven myself so hard. Yeah, it's interesting. Isn't it like that balance between the two? It's almost like the devil's advocate sort of spear you on saying, oh, you can't do this. And you're like, hang on a sec. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I'm so stubborn, too. So if you tell me, this makes me want to do more? That's funny. minute talking about your art teachers and your school teachers, I've been reading your book, wild things, thank you for sending me the copy too, because I have really resonated and I will talk a bit more about that in the future, but in the future of his podcasts in a moment. But yeah, when you say you teach it, it was like she was with a capital A, it was like a proper subject, not something just to sort of bridge between, you know, science or maths or, you know, the serious subjects and putting them in air quotes. And that's massive, isn't it to have that support of someone? We can take it seriously, like you said, you can make a career out of it. It does take hard work like anything, but you know, to have that option, you know, presented to you in in your sort of formative years when you're so influenced by things. Absolutely. And I was very influenced by her too. When I look back on it. I think she was probably only quite young at the time. Well, there are when you're a teenager, anyone who's old. I think it was her first teaching year. And she was very alternative. She was quite tall and thin, and she was always dressed all in black. She was you know, quite goth looking. And she was a bit smelly and unapproachable. And so any of the students that did kind of just turn up to art class and treat it like it was just such a slack off period. She really treated them with a lot of disdain, but because she could see I was really into it. She really took me under her wing and she would take me to exhibitions of contemporary artists on weekends. Use me to Hockney. She took me in a hot me exhibition. Some other weird Melbourne artists with weird kind of colourful stuff with dead my stuck on the fact that she was so excited and so inspired by that, and also that she saw something in me as well, you know, she could see that, that that mattered to me. And so even though I was in this very conservative mainstream girl school, I think she just liked the fact that there was that little ounce of rebel that was just the, the grain of all good artists. Just pushing up against things just Yeah. When you were talking about your teacher there reminded me of I had two teachers, their husband and wife, and they were just the most laid back hippie people you'd ever made. And some of the most interesting music I ever listened to. Was in Mr. Vans class used to put on like, America, I think they were called like that. The Horse With No brain or whatever that we'd saw. And my son actually is just on his Spotify playlist, it popped up and I'm just like, oh, the memories. Back from the song. It was just, it was bizarre. But yeah, I love the horses no name. That's what it is. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. Yeah. You knew what I meant, though. So that was good lace. Kind of uniform better, actually. Me All right. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think, because there's part of going through adolescence that you want to separate from your parents. And so if you're lucky enough that you do have other adults around you, that are doing interesting things. They can be extraordinary role models, and they can really set you on to quite alternative paths to the ones that your parents had laid out for you. And so they're really vital having good role models around you at that age. That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Your first book was a book that was actually written for young readers a bit of a mishmash in the way I built my career. Because I guess, because I hadn't grown up around artists, that wasn't something that I had considered was going to be the direction I'd go down. And so I read a lot, I drew a lot, I had great teachers, but I didn't actually know any grown up artists. And so I've just always written and drawn for myself, but really, I guess I'd always kind of thought that that was just something that was my own passion, my own drive, but I went to live in China for a few years. So my dad got a job there. And I went to study over there while he was living there, studying traditional Chinese painting. And at the same time, I was writing lots of letters home to friends to really try and explain what this extraordinary city of Shanghai was, like, at a time that had just come out of the Tiananmen Square riots, it was transitioning from very conservative, communist values to more progressive values. And I was in the art school. So all the arts students were part of all those, those demonstrations, and they were the ones that were really out there, you know, pleading for change, and wanting to open up the country much more to the west. And so I was writing all these letters home, and eventually, you know, there, I started to find to make them into short stories. So I'd always written stories, but I found that this was a way that I could take all the things that were happening, but also kind of almost elaborate on them and, and potentially put in some history and some characters. And so this is what just in a really weird way, eventually became my first young adult novel. And I was 19 when I started writing it, so I didn't really know what it was going to be either. But once again, I would say throughout my life, I've been blessed to come across incredible mentors. And so I, first of all, how did I get into that? That's right. I thought it was going to be a novel for adults. And I went to see I thought I'll penguin publishing I've heard of them. I know what I looked them up and where they were. And I managed I don't know how I managed to do it. This was a long time ago, to get an appointment with a publisher there who's a wonderful woman who's now become a close friend called Erica Wagner. And she had a look at what I was writing. She said, I think this is young adult Did you know I don't think this is adult and first, I was bit insulted at all what you're telling me, I'm a teenager, I was like I was 22 or something. But then she gave me three books. She gave me a book called Sleeping Dogs by Sonya Hart that she gave me looking for Alibrandi by Melina Marchetta. And she gave me peeling the onion by Wendy Orr. And I took those books, and I devoured them. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, this is young adult literature. I mean, I'm interested. And I realized how much it was pushing up against boundaries, and how much it really was exploring that really tumultuous time of adolescence. And it wasn't the teenage literature that I grown up reading, which was all about periods and boyfriends and pimples, that was really, really pushing the boundaries. So I was working on that. At the same time, I was still drawing and painting. And the first book I actually did manage to get published was a picture book. But in the background, I was working on that young adult novel. So even though that wasn't the first thing I had published, I was certainly that was the first thing I was writing. So everything kind of arrived in, in succession after that. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's an awesome story. And I'm sorry, I'm, I haven't read that book. I'm not actually, I'm not a massive reader. I just I don't know, I have, I find it difficult to sit for long periods of time and read. And I know, that's really bad to say, but I do make an effort when I, you know, really want to read something. That yeah, it's like, you've got the two aspects going together, like the children are becoming, you know, young adults, they're growing up, and then you've got that change of China at that time. So that's a really sort of awesome combination. Really, did you sort of realize that at the time, you're really onto something with that, I think I had a gut feeling that I was because my I had a couple of best friends at the time. One of them was a Chinese student, a man called Gen Z. And he was very politically minded. And he also took me into parts of China that I may not have been able to access on my own as a white Westerner. And then the other person who was a big influence on me, ended up becoming my boyfriend, and then eventually the father to my two older kids. And he was also very kind of rebellious and curious and seeking adventures. So I had those two really great role models to really push me outside of my comfort zone. But also, I was really able to see what it was like to be young Chinese person, particularly young adults growing up in China, as well as seeing the difference to how we were treated as expatriates, and the privileges and doors that were open to us. So I don't think I could have written that book, had I not had some really close Chinese friends and being part of the student body, had I only just mixed in the expatriate circles, I think it would have been very superficial. And so I was actually able to feel what the changes were happening in China from the perspective of other young people. And the danger that a lot of them were under even sometimes by just being friends with Westerners at the time was dangerous for them. So So those things I was aware of, and those things I tried to put into the novel, probably in a fairly naive way. But extraordinarily, several years later, I met another incredible mentor, the publisher text, Penny Houston, and she had read that book, and it had gone out of print. And she said, look, I think this was fantastic novel. And it's such a shame, it's gone out of print, why don't we give it another go. And so with her support, I did write another version of that book and went a little bit deeper. Now I was a bit older, a little bit more politically savvy, I was able to really understand what the situation had been like, with some perspective in the way that might have been. So I had the combination of both being submerged in it, but then being able to write it with a bit of perspective to later on. So yeah, I'm still really proud of that. You know, it's, it was you know, when I consider that I started writing it at 90. I look at that nothing. Yeah, well, you did that. Amazing. I did a residency in China, at a very prestigious International School. And the Australian librarian there just surreptitiously made sure that book was available on shelves for young students can change lives. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing in a country like that, where things are so heavily controlled, and, and, yeah, to be able to sneak something like that under the radar view. Awesome. Amazing. Do you keep up with what's going on in China now? Like having been, you know, immersed in it? Do you sort of keep an eye on how things are tracking over there? Do you still have friends over there? Yeah, less. So. For a couple of reasons. One, my dad lived there up until recently, so I was Background, visiting him quite a lot. And because all of the people he worked with were local Chinese, it was very easy to get an internal perspective of what was going on in the world. But since he's moved back to Australia, plus he is married to this fabulous Italian lady who speaks fluent Chinese. And so she was very much part of the cultural. The cultural hub of Shanghai. In fact, she had a newsletter that was called Maria's choice, and it would tell you which exhibitions you should go to which films you should go to. And she'd actually worked down now on film sets with Chinese film crews, as well. So for example, resolutie film The Last Emperor, she worked on that one. So both of those were people, my dad and my stepmother were a great source of information. I mean, obviously, it's not the same as being a Chinese person growing up in China, but everybody they worked with was Chinese. So it felt like it was pretty authentic. But they've moved back, Reg. More recently, I'm still in touch with Gen Z, but he lives in Australia now. And most of my Chinese friends, it's very hard to communicate with because I can speak Mandarin, but I can't read and write it. So unless we're phone calls, you know, having phone calls, which we don't really do more. It's really hard to keep track of where they all are, and where they're at what they're up to. But a couple of them I've kept in touch with. Yeah, that's interesting. It's like it's the country that's always fascinated me. And I had a friend that she was a school teacher here, and she went over for 12 months, doing like teaching in a what do you call them? An international school? Yeah. And she, she loved it. But it's the sort of place I think I'd get quite daunted by it. Like, I don't know, it feels a bit. Like, if you did the wrong thing, you'd feel like you're gonna get in big trouble or something, you know, like it feels. Maybe that's just for me, because I've never been, yeah, well, that that's the thing with the often those great experiences that you can have, like your friend did is that when you are employed there, and you're an expatriate, you do get to live and integrate within the country to an extent, but you're also very protected by your expatriate passport. And I don't think Chinese or I'm happy to be quoted, said, I'm wrong on this, but I don't think Chinese people will have anybody who was born outside the country ever recognized as a Chinese citizen, I think, potentially, maybe you're from Taiwan or Hong Kong, then that, obviously. But everybody else kind of has this very privileged surface existence. And we even knew that it students that, you know, when we're going out to nightclubs, or places like that, often, our Chinese friends wouldn't be allowed in these would be local nightclubs. And we were and so it's a kind of an fact, to my dad's credit. That's why he ended up moving us out of Asia, because we were I was doing High School in Hong Kong. And he didn't want us to live our whole lives, kind of having this sense of entitlement. I think just knowing that just because of the color of our skin that we've had become a bit untouchable. And then the rules didn't apply to us that they did for the local people that we, you know, we grow up often with mates. And he didn't want us to think that that was the world's normality. So he wanted us to have a much simpler lifestyle, you know, mind you, he still put us into a private school in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne. But he didn't want us to think that, that we had this assumption that everybody lived this way. And then suddenly, as expatriates, most people do live a very wealthy protected bubble like life. Yeah, you know, and, and often, the darker sides of China are even withheld from locals as well, you know, often it's really hard even for locals to unless they make really good local friends. You know, a lot of that is hidden from them. And so a lot of their people with disabilities aren't allowed on the streets or a lot of crime is shut down very quickly to have very tough measures on crime. So if anything, you're safer there than you are in Australia, because they don't you know, Chinese are very proud and they want the country to appear a certain way to outsiders eyes. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I sort of didn't think we only want to ask you lots of other things, but I'm not going to become very politically, the Chinese if you get quite political so we'll just say thank you for sharing your thoughts. Sorry, your book wild things, which is awesome, by the way. And again, thank you for sending it to me. It's called Wild Things, how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. And like I said earlier, I really resonated with this because my son, he's got some learning issues he hasn't been diagnosed with for ADHD, but the way they described him and it was interesting in your book, you've got to pick like a little thing about this describing the different types of ADHD. He's got the inattentive, distractibility type. So as I was reading this, so many times, I just went, Oh, my God, that's, that's how I felt, or that's what I should have done, or, you know, all this sort of stuff. So, rather than me keep blabbing on, can you share, in your own words, the inspiration behind your book? Yeah, thank you. It's lovely to hear how you've resonated with it. And that is partly why I wrote this book. So this is a scary thing for me to do. I've written for children for many, many years. Who am I to think I can write a book for grownups. But I, my son was struggling. And somehow, I let myself believe it would all kind of work itself out over time. So it was quite clear from regret about grade two, that he was struggling to acquire the reading skills that his two older brothers had easily been able to do. He did have a wonderful teacher in prep, who alerted me to the fact she thought he might have some reading issues. But I completely dismissed her I just thought, oh, you know, he's in prep, you know, they should just be playing with sand and water, what's the what's the issue here. And so I let it go for too long. And I kept thinking, Well, maybe he just won't be a reader. And so I'll write books that he wants to read. And so I wrote the Billy v. Brown series and tested them out on him. And then I wrote the hit page X series. And I figured, you know, they'll always be something that will engage him, I don't need to worry too much about reading, you know, my two older boys love reading, I love reading, maybe he just won't be a reader. What I hadn't taken to an account is how much reading affects everything. So if you can't read, there's very little in school that you can engage with, and you lose the capacity to express yourself to articulate your thoughts. And, of course, your self esteem becomes completely crushed. So within primary school, he managed to get by because he had lovely teachers who could see the good parts of him and make him feel okay about himself. But of course, once he got to high school, the wheels fell off. And it was really, really hard to get him the support he needed we'd up partly because somehow the school didn't want to believe that, that this was going to be an issue for him, that he'd got all the way to the end of year seven before I realized he wasn't even having working. So now we're in year eight, and his self esteem is worse. And so now, of course, his behavior is impacted. And so he's becoming a kid that has to get attention somehow. So He does it by by playing up or by doing dumb things to bond with peers. And so now he's becoming a kid, that's a problem in the class. So we're now getting up to year nine, and he has now completely disengaged from school, and also feeling like teachers and on his side. So by now I'm in an absolute panic, because I spend my life, you know, traveling around the world, talking to kids, and making them feel good about themselves and talking to parents about how we acquire reading, and how to get your reluctant reader reading. And I thought, I've obviously missed something here. You know, there's, there's a reason why my son has got this far. And he's going downhill fast. So I thought, I've got to research this. And so I just started asking people tell me how you teach your child to read, tell me what's going on for your child, I started tapping into support groups. And all of a sudden, I found this whole lot of information out there. And I couldn't understand how I hadn't been able to access it before. It's all out there. But it's really hard to find. And I was talking to lots of parents like yourself, who was who was saying, you know, my child struggling in school, or my child hasn't been able to pick up reading skills or, or whatever, and I. So once I tapped into these support groups, one of them suggested that I also had them assessed for ADHD, which is a very common thing among their children. And I really just took him to the doctor just to you know, write that one off, I thought, oh, no, he's not ADHD because somehow people have got in their mind that it's just those noisy ratty little kids that paid well wasn't like that. He was a daydreamer. Who was swayed he was, you know, wanting to please. And so sure enough, he was diagnosed with ADHD and so I just thought, how is this All coming to me now. And now he's 15, he's disengaged, he feels terrible about himself. And he's talking about dropping out of school. So then I went around to all my friends. And I said, Did you know this? So you've got to know this or, and I met more and more people like you that were saying, you know, wanting to share their stories, too. So I thought, I've got to put all this into one place. Not let everybody else I know, go through all the struggles that my son and I had to. And so I thought I'd go to my publisher, and I'll talk to her about this idea. I really didn't think that she'd take it on. And she said, Yep, we'll do it. But it took me two years to find the contract. Because I wasn't convinced I could do it. And the biggest part of it was just getting over that self doubt that I think a lot of us, do you know that? You know, who am I to think I can do this? You know, I'm not an expert in the field. So I did a huge amount of research, read some really dense books on neuroscience and a lot of books on how we acquire reading skills, or what happens in our brains. Talk to a whole lot of experts. The amazing thing about writing a nonfiction book is you can call up anyone, I'm writing a book, can I interview, you get my diarrhea. I spoke to the most amazing people, I spoke to this extraordinary woman over in the US who had actually changed, who had actually changed the schooling system that her child was a part of by just getting a whole lot of other parents on board. So when you tap into these support groups, they're extraordinarily powerful, and they're emotionally charged. So there were so many people wanting to support me in writing this book, that the days when I thought I can't do this, I've got to drop it. Let's just go back to writing for kids. I thought about those people. And I thought I can't let him down. All these people have already shared their stories, or these people have already given me their time and their expertise. I just have to keep pushing through. I did. And even when I handed the first draft to my publisher, I was sure she'd say are no actually look, you know, I'm not so sure about this. But she loved it. And the thing that she responded to the most strongly was the memoir elements of it. And she said, you know, all the scientific stuff is important. But the stuff that I really, that really sticks with me is all the personal stuff. So of course, that's where you feel the most vulnerable. And so I just kept expanding on those bits. And then in the very later drafts, running all of them passed my son to check that he was comfortable with all of them as well. And so interesting stuff came out of that as well. Because when I'd read something out that had happened five years ago, he was now older, unable to say actually, that wasn't my experience of it. So he was able to then share what had been like for him. So it became almost this beautiful combinate this beautiful moment where I was able to actually understand my son more by doing the research into this book. And this was all done during lockdown as well. So we spent a lot of time together. Had I not done the research for that book? I don't know where my son and I would be at now because we've become very disconnected. I had become really just full blown anxiety stressed out, not knowing what was going on what was normal, what wasn't. And now I've got this beautiful young man in my life who has this extraordinary unique brain. kooky? Yeah, is really beautiful, empathetic, and feeling good about himself, you know, after feeling so crushed by the system, I think, all that time working on the book and running lots of it past him. He feels good about himself. He knows that. Yeah, he's different. That's cool. Yeah. Does he does he kind of also think Can he see that by sharing like you sharing his, in your experience that it will help others? Is that something that he sort of takes in as well? Yeah, look, I think he's probably still a little bit young to really get the implications of that. He's only 19 and a half. So I have said to him again, and again, look, by us being vulnerable, and sharing our stories, potentially, we can, you know, empower people to be able to support their kids better. So they don't have to go through the same things as that. So he understands the intent, whether he really understands it in the way that I think, potentially only a really panicky struggling parent could really understand it. Who knows. You know, I think when you're a teenager, you're the center of your universe, you don't really know or under Oct nor should you know how your behavior is impacting the people around you. You know, I one of the things I recognized is how much I projected onto him, you know, how much I saw him as responsible for my anxieties rather than me responsible for my anxiety. And that was a huge sub. Most of the growth has come from me, letting go of who I thought my son was actually really working out who he is? Towards the end of the book, you've got a chapter called things I wish I'd done differently. But one of the points is, except your kid is different. So that's a pretty powerful thing. Like you said, you've got that shift, did you also find then accept yourself to in that you can only, like, he can't blame yourself, you can't beat yourself up. You can only do what you can do and accept that this is, it is what it is kind of thing without giving up, you know what I mean, but accepting that you can't go back and change things or that kind of thing. Was that something for you? as well? Yeah, I think that's a really nice way to put it. I, I know that I'm quite hard on myself about it. And particularly because it feels like and I might be wrong, that everybody else seems to know how to do this advocacy, parenting stuff. And in all these support groups, you know, they're really, it looks like they all know what they're doing. They're starting much younger than I did, people seem to be so much more aware and onto these things. And I felt like, somehow I just didn't, didn't get that memo. And so, I do feel like I could have done better. And I do feel like my son's trajectory would have been very different. Had I done differently. Having said that, I don't think I was very supported in the education system. You know, there were times when I felt like, the things that, you know, I was getting assessments done, and I would take them to the school, and they'd be filed away, and nothing would be done about it. Or I would say, you know, I'm, I have a concern here, and I kind of just be dismissed, you know, teachers and and, and it'll be fine. It'll sort itself out. And first of all, what I want to say is, that's absolutely not the fault of teachers is that one of the things that teachers who I've also interviewed for the book have told me is that, you know, they can't be expected to recognize and identify what kid needs, what you know, what issues they may have, whether it's they haven't had breakfast, or whether their parents are splitting up, they have a mental health condition or they neurodivergent you know, they're not counselors, and they're already under so much pressure. But I guess I had thought that that was something that the school will be able to handle and I recognize now that is, you know, as hard as it is, it really does fall back at least on the parent to be the advocate for the child and to educate themselves. So I definitely could have done a better job of that. But I also want to say that it's never too late and this is the thing I'm really proud of you know that there were times when my son was sneaking out at night and getting up to all kinds of stuff when and I was single parenting and making a lot of these decisions on my own. And there were a lot of times where I thought I can't do this I actually am not up for it I don't have the skills but there's no choice you no one else no one else is gonna do it for you. I just had to step up and I had to recognize that yeah, I stuffed up in the early days I hadn't done enough but today is the day we start work you know roll your sleeves up. Yeah, let's see. Skilled I read a lot I got a lot of support but I also did a couple of years of counseling costs as well and I learned to become a better listener so I learned to actually listen more talk less so I could get to know really what my son needed Yeah and he's so proud to put this young man in the world Yeah well that's that's so lovely yeah this with Alex he I feel the same in lots of different ways of your story that Alex he was always the kid that was like distracts others can't stay on task, you know, every single year level. Whenever we get his report or we talk to the teachers, it was the same thing and I kept saying to my husband, but what do we do? Like we've tried all these strategies about you know, different some teachers were really good at giving him more focus and they'd have put a special desk near them and, and sort of every now and then they you know, he'd be staring off into space and they bring him back and If others would just completely disown him, because they'd be like, well, that kid doesn't want to learn, I'm not gonna have anything to do with it, you know, and I can understand, you know, my backgrounds in early childhood education. I've been a kindy tech, not kindy teacher, but kindy worker and a childcare worker for nearly 10 years. So I get, I get what it's like to be in an educational setting, perhaps not exactly what schools like, but I, you know, I have a bit of an understanding, and I don't like same thing, I don't blame teachers, they've got enough on their plate as it is. And so I'm saying to my husband, we keep getting the same things, the same things like, what do we do about it? And everyone was like, oh, no, he'll grow out of it. Bla bla bla. And looking back. Now I know, there were signs they were all looking us in the face. But no one ever said, Have you ever thought about this? Have you ever thought about having intested ever yet, you know, and it was like you were just left to flounder because you don't know what you don't know. Being our first child, first child going into the world, you think people are going to tell you things, you know, people who know stuff should help us. But if they don't, then you have no idea what you're doing. And it wasn't till he got to high school. Same thing with your son, that literally the wheels fell off. And that's when we got the help we needed and we think started looking out for him. Because we actually have the tools and the people around us that could suggest things. So it's like, everyone just thought he just grow out of it. Like the little boy just playing around, he'll be fine. And he did to a degree, but also think he liked to hide it as well. I think he got really clever like your son, I think people that have have challenges get very, very, they're very intelligent people who are able to mask things and do things in other ways and teach themselves in other ways and learn other ways. Yeah, I think that's such a great way of explaining it. Because, you know, and this is why I think the more we talk about it, the better it is. And what we have in this generation that our parents didn't have, and certainly not before them, is social media. So now we have the capacity to hear marginalized voices tell their own story. So I don't know if you saw the Press Club talk that Mr. shiana gave me and that being a late diagnosed ADHD, I follow a lot of neurodivergent activists on social media, I tap into disability support groups. So we have that now we have the capacity to educate ourselves, and look at behavior as just being in information. Whereas before all these kids, like my dad also had a terrible time at school, he now suspects he's potentially neurodivergent himself, my younger sister as well, is really convinced she's dyslexic, they gave her glasses, you know, people didn't really know. So these people grow up feeling terrible about themselves, and some of them will go on and be resilient adults. Some of them don't, some of them end up in, you know, justice systems, because they can engage in school, they hang out with other people who have issues engaging with schools for a myriad of reasons. And they go down a really dark pathway, and often don't come out the other side of it, like our kids are lucky enough to do. And that's why if I have anything come out of having published this book, I hope that it starts conversations like already, you and I are starting to talk about the experiences that children have gone to through, I'm getting several messages a week from people I've never met, saying, This is my story, you know, or this is what's going on for my kid. And I think this is how we make change, we shine a light on all these things. So that then the burden is not placed on individuals, not just on the teacher or the parent. But everybody knows, ah, that kid, you know, maybe has this particular learning style. So let's find a support network for them in this way, or one of the most brilliant educators who was knighted for his ideas. So Ken Robinson has an extraordinary TED Talk where he talks about this young girl in the classroom. And this would have been back in the 70s, I imagine who couldn't sit still and everybody thought there was something wrong with her. And the psychologist left the room turns the music on and she got up and danced. And he said to the parents, there's nothing wrong with her. She's a dancer. And I think the next book I want to explore is also the idea of the artist as well, because the artist is most likely a person that hasn't connected with the mainstream that has found mainstream education, really difficult to engage them in certain ways. And so a whether it's unconventional people who are drawn to art, or whether we stay on conventional because we're able to express ourselves in a way that you can't do if you're a real estate agent. I'm interested to explore that further because I don't think that's a coincidence that that add us neurodivergent people, people who have strong feelings, you know, may struggle with their mental health. There's a lot of overlap with all of that there but unfortunately, schools are set up For one kind of learner, yeah. And that has to change. Oh, yeah. But this is a conversation, I could have 100 times over. It's just the frustration that you get, like just the simple thing. Like last night, my son, my little boy who's seven, he was looking through last year's school magazine. And he noticed some of the kids that were on a special page, and they were the ones that had won the academic awards for their year level. And he asked me what it meant, and I knew where it was going. And I said, these are the children that were judged in a certain way to be clever. And he said, Does that mean I'm not smart? And I knew where it was going. I could read it like a book. And I said, No, I said, it means that for the certain tests that they did, to work out who was clever in this certain way, these kids were the best at that. And I said, and there's other tests in the world. And it wasn't like a test it was more are other ways in the world, that you are determined to be, you know, clever in other ways. And he but he kept on with it. He said, Does that mean I won't win an award and I said, darling, you're reminding these already won some awards for being kind and you know, for, for perseverance and that kind of thing. And it just straightaway, just flashed in my head, like, this moment, I remember in kindergarten, when my my eldest son, who's, you know, Alex, who's got the issues, went to kindergarten for the first time. And this was before I was working in the Childcare and Education area. And I took him to kindy. And they all had to sit down. And they all had to sit with their legs exactly the same crossed in the front. And they all had to sit up and look at the front. And I just thought, it's like, I don't know what the rule is, I could, like I could see the light go out in him, if, you know, he couldn't even sit the way he wanted to, he couldn't express his himself in the way he wanted to just by being present. And I just, I walked away from them with tears in my eyes, because I thought you just squashing these little people right from the beginning. And now when I'm, like I'm working to kindy now, and there's some children that, you know, you can tell that they're feeling unsettled for the way they're being told to sit or whatever, and I'll, I'll bring him over. And I'll say, Just stretch your legs out a bit, you know, give them a bit of a shake, you know, and, you know, hiding sort of way, I hope none of my kindy cohorts are listening to this, you know, you should be able to sit however you want to see. So, you know, just breaks my heart. And that's the start of it, the very start of the conformity is expected for the next, you know, 1314 years of their lives. Yeah, just breaks my heart. And it's crashing, you know, your story breaks my heart too, because, you know, that's all of these brilliant minds, that are just kind of being pushed through this one system that was created 100 years ago to make factory workers, docile, factory factory workers. And so, you know, what I was stressed again, is there are extraordinary teachers working within the six, this repressive system. And if you're lucky enough, your kid will find a teacher that can just see something in you, you know, keep your self esteem intact. But you know, like, asking my book is this really the best we can do for our kids, you know, to spend 12, or 13 years of your most formative years of your life, in a system that makes you feel broken or wrong or a failure, you know, some kids will thrive, some kids will come through and feel great about themselves. But others will, you know, just be left completely broken. And so many adults, I interviewed about the book, there's a young, a beautiful man who I call Tony in the book that told me about his school experience. And it's so common, you know, just to feel completely, and some people never recover from that, just to feel completely crushed by that. So that's also where I feel like when we start to understand what my friend Eliza hull has taught me about the social model of disability, when we start to understand that it is actually a person's right, to be able to express themselves authentically, and to be able to set up their environments and they can thrive, then schools will be more accommodating towards kids that can't sit with their legs crossed, you know, and there are a lot of autistic activists, self advocating activists that are now really loudly and proudly saying, Do not shut us down, you know, we need to move we need to stim. This is how we emotionally regulate it, stop trying to make us not like us, we want to live full, authentic lives. And this is what we need to do all the kids coming through schools. And look, it's I don't know what that will look like. Because, of course, it's great to bombard ideas into the, you know, into the ether and not know how to put that into practice. Because, you know, like we were saying before, as a teacher working one teacher with 25 kids, each of them have their own specific needs. But a lot of the feedback teachers gave me is that even just lowering the student teacher ratio, just aides in the classroom, your more external things to be able to self regulate. So one credible school that I talked to has a massive what they call the shed. And it's a big workshop space and kids with difficulty in staying within the classroom neurodivergent kids or kids with learning difficulties have factored in spaces during the week where they can go and do stuff in the shed where volunteers come in, they did some cooking would work in a basket weaving whatever. And there's no stigma attached to spending time in the shed, because it's a cool place to be, you can go to the shed as well. So it's so tricky, because yes, sometimes it does require taking these kids out of the classroom and finding something they're good at. And all I remember myself, the kids that got taken out of the class, you know that there's something different about them. And there's stigma attached to that my son hated that, if that meant that he was stupid. So there's, there's got to be more creative ways of doing it. So that we can offer different ways of making our kids feel good about themselves. And that's where parents are really important to, to just to see like you're doing to see that it's a big picture. And all the successful adults I interviewed who neurodivergent said the one thing that got them through was finding something they were good at. And maybe that's art, maybe that sport for one guy was sailing, you know, Torian champion sailing, yeah, doesn't matter what it is, you've got to you got to have something that's yours that you didn't want. Alex is playing the bagpipes. He's like, Oh, my God, like the kid that like both my husband and I are musical and, you know, always had music in the house and sang and played. And for years, I'd be like, taught me to teach you this. Do you want me to teach that night night and I was I think it was, you know, out of, you know, rebellion against Moto and mom to teach me something, you know. And then all of a sudden, remember the that squid game that TV show that was big about a 12 months ago, the same song of that like the do do this kind of little tune on a recorder. So all of a sudden Alex decides he wants to play the recorder. And I'm like, Okay, that's great. So I didn't really take him seriously. So I ended up buying him recorder because the kids had a recorder when they were little. And I pulled it to pieces and hid the pieces around the house because I hate it. It's like there's a there's a keyboard here. There's a guitar there. Could you play something else anyway, so he loved it learnt heaps of songs on it. And I thought, I can't have this sound. It's issues with particular sounds, it really triggers me. So I bought him a tin whistle and Irish tin whistle so a nicer sound. It was in a different, like different key. So it challenged him but he loved it learn all these songs. And then one day he just says, I just want to play the bagpipes. And I've just gone up Jesus. Could you not pick something a bit louder? Like, anyway, so in 12 months this kid is, is he's joined the local band. They've been on blowies boat horn, but I will he's, he's they say he's got the most potential of any kid they've seen, you know, in a long time. He's picked it up so quick. And I'm like, I'm just so damn proud of him because he loves it. You know, he's always been a bit left of centre he like always like listening to Scottish music or something a bit different. And I've always embraced it. Because I'm a bit like that as well. So you know, and I just think good for you mate. Like he's found the thing he loves and he's the sort of kid that won't necessarily try hard unless he really likes something. So yeah, we live in the dream now. Because I see DC they have a bag. Yeah, the other day we're watching the I feel GranFondo and they had you know the the bagpipers coming out for your voice and it's like they go mate. And I've always I've also had someone online because we share a little video on on our Facebook, say, Oh, I'm getting married soon, I'm gonna need someone to play the bagpipes. Like, they go mate, you know, and people love it. Like, it's a sort of, if you hear it sort of off in the distance of bagpipe. It's, you know, you get the hair sort of, you know, you get it get goosebumps, whatever. It's amazing instrument. It's just not so amazing when it's literally just out the door. Well, I'm trying to do things in here. But anyway, long story short, He's found his thing and he's, he's thriving and good on you for being open to that as well. Because I think, you know, that that is really important thing that I think parents need to understand is it may not be the thing that you thought it would be, it might be something completely different. But yeah, if you can give them the space and the support to find that thing. And, you know, also be part of it. You know, I do that as well. I say this thing like oh, you know, I don't want to blow my own horn or, you know, I don't want to show off or anything but the kids that have had no successes, and then to be extraordinary at something it's of course we should celebrate that You know, so you know, I think good on it and yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. We spoke earlier about how people connect with you people you've never met, you get the feedback that others are going through it. In your book, you mentioned about an experience where you were booked to speak in front of a whole lot of was it buyers? Buyers? book sellers, new sellers. Yeah. And you had, you know, your, your script, I guess that what you were going to say? And then you started to get these little nudges in your mind that you really wanted to share your son's story. And you did, and it went amazing. And, you know, the feedback you got from people afterwards talking to you for you know, so many hours. Like, it's, it's incredibly wonderful that there are people like you that can share, because I know there's a lot of people that can't but I just want to say how awesome it is that you are doing this, like it's it's just really great. Thank you. And look, I think I, I you know, you and I, we do have a platform. And as scary as it is to be vulnerable. I think that's also such a gift. Every time I've heard someone who has a platform, for whatever reason when they speak openly about something vulnerable. So you know, when I was a teenager, I might have been someone I'm famous coming out, or more recently, it's mental health, or even more recently now with somebody like em Oceana, spotlighting on ADHD, how powerful that is, and how connecting, and then how it does make people feel like that, that they can, you know, look at that person up there that looks like they've got it together so successful. They also have all this stuff going on, too. So I my case. You know, occasionally people say to be about my book horror, it's very vulnerable. For a lot of yourself out there and a panic, a lie awake at night going over bits. And I think, what are people gonna think of that fit? But I think what's the point of creating art, if you don't make something that matters, you know, there's so much froth out there anyway. You know, this is something that I hope would speak to you as a practicing artist and about your podcast being about practicing art, particularly as a parent, you have so little time to waste. Why why do frost why not do something real? vulnerable? Deep, authentic connecting, that's what art can do. Yeah, that's awesome. That is such a great way of looking at it. And I certainly feel that way. It's like, if you're going to do it go big. Before you get into clubs, I've had no pushback. That's the amazing thing. I thought that by now. I mean, it's only been a few weeks, but I thought there would be someone that would take me to task. But all I've got is people thanking me. And so I think it was worth it. It was worth doing that very thing. Because it was see that you're you're trying your best even if I don't get everything right. I'm just I'm trying my best. Right now in my stage of life. Yeah, absolutely. Now that's awesome. It's really interesting, your book. Now you've named it wild things as a reference to that amazing children's book where the wild things are. And throughout your book, you've sort of waved in these characters from other books, and then analyze them for one of a better word, brought them into the 21st century and saying, How would these children be the word diagnosed dying, that's a good way to be perceived in if they were here. Now. What would we say they had a better website. That's really interesting. What How did you come up with that idea? Because it's fascinating. And it's, it's really, it's really interesting, actually. I'm glad you say that. I think it's partly because partly it came from my own anxieties when I first started out writing the book that people would see my name on the book as a children's author and think why is she writing a book for grownups? So I thought, how can I connect what I do and have done for 25 years, this world, I'm passionate about children's literature with what I want to bring to an adult audience. And I taught writing for children for a long time at RMIT in Melbourne. And I always ask my grown up students to bring in a book from their childhood, every time someone holds up a book that meant something to them as a child, the reaction that they have to that, or the memories that are locked into that book, and visceral, you know, we have such a deep connection to our childhoods. We forget that sometimes. And sometimes just bringing an object or a book, or something from your childhood can trigger all these incredible feelings and memories. So I thought, all these books that we grew up reading, you know, we celebrate these characters, and we love them, they become part of our lives, they become part of our culture. So many of them are Naughty. Naughty, because one of the keys to writing good literature is you need conflict. You know, a story doesn't, you know, there's no such thing as a story where just everything happened, nothing happens. You know, the story is created by conflict. It's created by adversity, it's created by all these things, and your main character, you've got to give them some agency. And usually that happens by bucking the system, challenging authority, making changes. And that can usually only happen if you're a little bit of a rebel. So most of our most beloved characters are pretty rebellious. So we celebrate these characters in books. But when our children show the same traits, we really struggle with that like, oh, Ron, you're supposed to sit down and do what you're told, don't stand up and say, the books we're giving them are all about people challenging authority. And so I just wanted adults to, to want to think about that, to think about what it is that we expect from our children that's maybe unnatural, or maybe not even particularly healthy, but also to tap into our own childhood selves, because everything we experienced as a child work we're experiencing for the first time. So we see the world with eyes open and full of awe. And that's what you have to do as a daily practice. As an artist, you have to see the world as it for the first time every day. And that's why people when they travel, they often become creative, because they want to take photographs or write blog posts or lead us home. Because everything is new and exciting. That's what childhood is like. So we can tap back into that childhood aspect of ourselves. It's not infantilizing, it's actually portal into this extraordinary wealth of creativity, and hopefully, connection and compassion for our own children. Like we're looking at what they're doing. And I'm thinking, actually, you know what, I remember doing that myself as a kid, maybe I shouldn't be so hard on them. Like that was a massive tantrum I had as a kid, bend me into the Catholic to get me in. And yet, you know, when my child has a tantrum, you know, that's, that's intense, that's full on. And I had to try to remember how I felt to be able to have compassion for him and kids. To do that with me, it's a good reminder, isn't it? Because sometimes I think we expect so much of our little people, like we just think because I'm an adult, I expect my child to be in this world and engage in the same level. And we forget, you know, their brains are literally wired different to ours, you know, the, the certain parts of their brains haven't, you know, finished developing to, I don't know, till you're 21 or something, you know, like, it's massive. But yet, we just expect, like, perfect reminder for me, is like, I want my children to sit at the table and make their tea for do you think they will? Well, no one ever while the other one's not too bad. But it's like fiddle with every single thing that's on the table, try and hop off the chair 20 times. And so in the end, I just gave up but it's like, I don't, I don't want to experience this. This aggravation or this conflict at tea time. So now, the two of us sit together and have our tea watching the telly usually, and the other to sit up there and have a chat. And it's like, it works for us. And I hear these people say, Oh, we always sit around the table and have dinner together. I'm thinking, geez, you mustn't glue your children to the chair, or your children are not like my children, you know, and just except that, because when I was a kid, jeez, if we didn't sit at the table, you know, you know, we sat at that table, then I just accept, like, like he said, before any point, just acceptance, you know, and things don't always have to be perfect. And the way that, you know, we think they have to be. Yeah. And I think also it's a really good point is that sometimes we just have to recognize how much is unacceptable and how much have we just conditioned to think is unacceptable. And so the fact that you've gone with your gut instinct, and chewed into your child rather than thinking, Oh, this is how I should do it, because I got caught up in a lot of shirts because I had lots of friends with what seemed like perfect kids and doing everything in a different way. So I had to stop thinking that maybe there was something wrong with my kiddos just see these different and stop comparing myself to other parents or comparing to how I was, or even just the social conditioning rehab on what how kids should be. Yeah, that's a big one. That's something I've had to work hard on, I think. And also social media hasn't really helped that because you get to see, well, it's not really people's lives, it's the idea of the part of people's lives, they want you to see that, you know, it's like, oh, you should be doing this. And you should be doing that. And as a mother, you know, that's just like a minefield, find amazing people to follow, you just got to find the right people. Like, you've got to follow disability advocates like the two Ps, those two mums that talk about parenting and kids with disabilities for such no gravitas and humor at the same time. And so you just got to find your tribe, comparing yourself to other people that aren't like you. And that was exactly for me, as soon as I tapped into other communities. These are my people this is, yeah, that's really good. Before I move off of wild things in until the other book I want to talk about, I want to try and link this in, in my podcasts, I like to talk to my moms about the concept of mom guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because often I'll get a mom who just tells me, they don't even know what it is. And I had to google it. And I think that's wonderful. You know, like, it's, you know, everyone experiences things different and guilty or not guilty is one of those things. And I noticed in your book a lot, and you did talk before how you can be really hard on yourself. Is has that been a challenge for you? To not hold on to things? And yeah, you know, usually so and look, I think, I think the very first drafts that I wrote on my book, I just used as a blur as a cathartic experience to get out all the angst and all the guilt. And then I tried to pull it back more and more because it can become self indulgent, you know, and I felt like, Okay, now I've got it all out. This feels like my diary here. But now what's useful for other people? Is it still beating myself up? Is it saying what a bad person I am, you know, potentially what we can do for each other as my mother's is let each other off the hook, you know, you know, being open and saying, Yeah, this is where I messed up. You know what, that's just because I'm human. And so I think part of writing this book was also letting myself off the hook coming through that guilt. That I think so many mothers hold, potentially father's too, I haven't spoken to them to the same extent about that. But I, but I think we need to do ourselves a favor and just let each other off the hook and stop showing each other up and, you know, openly laughing about the things we get wrong and supporting each other when it's hard. I think that's building the tribe and the community and recognizing that, you know, we're really just doing the best we can. Yeah, absolutely. Because I actually think that women and mothers are really bad at doing that to each other, like we do it to each other a lot. And then we don't want it done to us. So I think if we could just stop doing it, it would be wonderful. But you can do that even in a conversation. Like I remember, in conversations I because I feel like I'm trying to be aware, I think self awareness is the biggest step. And you know, I would find myself in a group of other mothers maybe criticizing somebody or something. But we can be the person that just says, You know what, I do that too, or actually, you know, maybe she's having a bad day or whatever. And, you know, we can arrest that even if it does feel like a bonding thing at the time. It's not a really healthy thing to bond over. We can find other things to bond over. Yes, that's true. That's well said yes. The other book that you've recently released is with Eliza Holt, and you've mentioned Eliza and I'm having the lion's share on the podcast in a few weeks too, so I'm really excited about that. It's called come over to my house and can you share with us rather than me tell people you share again, in your own words, what was behind this book and how you came to be involved in the book as well? So I met Eliza through another one of your interviewees, Rachel power, who was A wonderful friend. And she interviewed me for the first edition of her book. The I think I don't know what the most recent one is. But it used to be called the divided heart. I think it's now the art of motherhood or something like that. Anyway, exactly what you're doing just finding other artists, mothers, how are you possibly doing this thing and actually having an artistic practice at the same time? Incredible book, and I give it to everybody who's a practicing artist, mother. It's a brilliant book. It is. It's a wonderful book, if you haven't read it, read it. In fact, to be shouted at it every episode because she's queen. And so she and I were on a panel with another couple of artist mothers. and Eliza Hall was in the audience. So it was years and years ago, before she even became a mother, I think she was thinking of becoming a mother. And she contacted me out of the blue, and we just started corresponding. And we became friends. She's an extraordinary musician, I downloaded one of her albums, and I had it on rotation in my car all day, every day for years, I think. And so, by absolute coincidence, after a few years, we both ended up in this mate, same small country town. So I was still living in Melbourne, but I had a bush block, just outside of Castlemaine in central Victoria. And she had not long ago moved to Castlemaine herself. So we just kept reconnecting because I really liked her she really liked me. And she had brought actually contributed a piece for the book, edited by Calif in late growing up disabled in Australia. And she also edited a book on parenting parents with disabilities and the challenges and the triumphs that many of these parents are happy to share. And she said that she had been thinking about writing a book for children, but it's wasn't an area that she was very familiar with, when I come on board with her. And being such a big fan of hers, I said, Yeah, of course, you know, I'd love to. And she is the person I credit to helping me understand how disability doesn't have to be a dirty word. So disability, if somebody owns that word with pride, just like indigenous and African American people are earning the word black with pride, or potentially pride with pride, with pride, then then, it becomes something that takes away the stigma around that word. So a lot of active self advocating people within the disability community will use that word, as a way of saying, there's nothing wrong with me, this is who I am, this is my community. But unless you create an accessible world, I'm not going to be able to be my reach my full potential. And she proposed that potentially, my son was also disabled by his environment, because if he was able to learn in a particular way, but the school wasn't able to support the way that he learned that he was also disabled. So that just blew my mind. He claimed that social disability. So we workshop, the idea of doing a picture book together, we're what the aim of it is to normalize disability, we just happened to be invited into I think, I can't remember now seven children's homes, the child might have a disability or the parent might have a disability, some things are done a little bit differently. Some things we do the same. But really, it's about just taking away the stigma around that word, opening us up into the world of these extraordinarily creative people who live with disability, and inviting into their homes. So there was a book I grew up reading in the 70s, by Dr. Seuss, called come over to my house. And it was, I remember, I loved it as a child, I read it again and again. And we were invited into all these homes of people who lived in different countries around the world than, you know, Japan, or India or whatever. Everybody had a slightly different house ate slightly different food, but they all like to play the same kind of games. So we've aimed to do the same thing with this book, we're inviting into these times. There'll be some similarities, some differences. But you know, there's nothing scary about it. Talk about talk about the similarities and the differences and normalize and D stigmatize those words, that fear is the thing I think it's people don't know what to say they don't know. I think what you've written in the beginning of your book about how people with disabilities like to be referred to whether I've got a disability, I'm a person with a disability. Now, I think we're scared of offending people or saying the wrong thing. And it's like, if we talk to people, if we talk to each other, and we say, How do you like to be referred to you? What would you like me to call you and lots and lots of listening? And that's where we do have access to extraordinary stories and people via social media, people who weren't able to access platforms to be heard before. And so you can politely ask if you can follow an activist on social media you know, Callie villa is a very outspoken activist that speaks very, very confidently in the area of disability and so there's lots to Learn from the stuff. That's just undoing all the conditioning that we've had growing up and understanding how, you know what, what the world is like for people that don't live with the same kind of privilege we do. And the best way we can understand that is just lots lots of listening. And there's a lot of amazing people to follow online that you can learn heaps from. We can all educate ourselves, it's you know, and, you know, that's where there is a delicate balance. Because, you know, there will be people that will say, well, it's not for us to carry the weight of having to educate everybody, you know, we don't want every single person coming up to us and asking, you know, how to lose your leg or whatever. So we're hoping this picture book for children is that it starts communication starts conversation, sorry, around different forms of disabilities. And also, the kinds of questions we can ask because children are genuinely interested, curious and naive. And so we can have these conversations and we can say our Do you know, do you think that men will feel comfortable with you just staring at him all the time? You know, how would you feel if you were invited to a party and you couldn't get in because your wheelchair couldn't get over the step in the playground or, you know, actually creating empathy, compassion, and the more we can hear the stories from people themselves, rather than people like me talking on their behalf. More important that is, and that's why of course, it's fantastic. You've got Eliza on your program, because I'm looking forward to that God. And she's a wonderful person. Yeah. And I Yeah, music like, I don't know how I didn't know. She also was a singer and a songwriter. And like, wow, she's amazing. Yeah. So if you're listening alive, so looking forward to chatting with you? So I want to go back to you, as a mum, do you feel like you want your children to see you, as Sally that does all these things, and you're not just their mom, and I'm putting that in air quotes, because you're never just a mom. But you know that your children see that you've got all these other elements to then the caring role, the mothering role? Yeah, I think that's really important. And in the years where I did carry a lot more guilt than I allow myself to now, I used to worry a lot about working a lot, because I worked really, really, really hard. And so often I might be away on tour, or I might have to, after dinner, go back into the studio to work or, and would sometimes mean that I'd missed some school things or, you know, and then I would feel bad about that. But I think all my working mothers can relate to that. But I guess what I hoped is that what I'm role modeling is that if they have a female partner in the future, there won't be an assumption that it just falls on one person to do the domestic labor or the childcare, that I can model what it's like to be an independent person in the world. I've always been financially independent, I've always, you know, worked really hard to forge a career for myself. And so even though I have sons, not daughters, I think it's as important to role model that for them, as it would be if I had daughters, and they're really proud of me now, you know, my oldest son's 29 Oh, my, oh, actually, not all my sons, my two oldest sons. In the creative arts, so the oldest one is interested in writing and filmmaking. The middle one is a visual artist, along with a million other things. My youngest son's into math, so I'm not quite sure how to connect. i That's pretty creative, too. But, you know, what they've seen is that you can be loving, you can be nurturing, you can be dedicated to your children, and you can also have space for yourself. And that's actually what it is to be a whole healthy human in the world. You know, nobody should have to completely sacrifice themselves for anybody else. That's not healthy. You know, we can be full people in the world and also be amazing parents as well. And so I just feel like I had to role model that to my kids, and get over that angst that I would carry about not being there at every assembly. Being really terrible at baking cakes. I'm just and that's okay. Yeah, exactly. And I was always good on You mentioned briefly earlier how that your son Sam inspired you to write a couple of the series is that your that you've written? Can you tell us a little bit more about that. So before Sam, it became clear that Sam was struggling to read, I wrote the kind of books I like to read as a child, so sophisticated, you know, plots, dense texts, you know, elaborate vocabulary, all of those things, because I was a very good reader. And I found reading easy and accessible. So they're the kind of books I set out to write, partly from my own ego as well, because I wanted to show off what a good rider so those weren't ever going to be books that Sam was going to be able to access. So and I call him Sam, he's not really called Sam. But for the purposes of the book and all the publicity, he said, yep. And to give him some privacy. And so the only books that he was able to read, we're the school readers, and they serve a very important purpose. They are there to teach kids to read, but they often don't have storylines or character development. And they're often a bit boring. I thought, the challenge for me would be to create books that would use that kind of language and vocabulary and sentence structure, but actually have proper character development and plots and so forth. And I tested them all out on them. So I would watch him. And if I lost his attention, I would short nerd or I would speed up the story or whatever. So they're all road tested with past him. And then because those books reach so many kids, what that message very strongly sent to me was, there are a lot of kids out there, like Sam, who may not be dyslexic, but just may find reading really hard. So everything I've written from then on has been for those kinds of kids, because not many other people are doing, I think there's a lot of humor around for kids. There's a lot of kind of cartoon comic books for kids, and they are really, really important too. But to explore something that goes into an emotional terrain, or perhaps, perhaps stories of friendships, it's hard to find those in a lot of the really, really fast paced accessible books for kids. So I try to do that and everything I write, to make sure that it works on lots of levels. So the poly investor series, for example, can be read on the surface as a story about rich and the monster playground story. But the further you go into it, and the more you want to explore it with a child, the more you can see that it's actually a story about apartheid. You know, it's potentially a story about the Trump era story about racism, you know, depending on how deep you want to go with your child. But I trust that children want complex stories, they may not be able to access them with their reading skills, but they have extraordinary minds. I mean, I remember, the Think of that I was as a child, that's the one skill that I've been able to hone throughout writing for children is that I can transport myself back to a six year old really easily. And I remember how I thought how I felt. And it's not less than we do now. It's not as sophisticated. But if anything, I think I felt things even more keenly as a child than I do now. And so I don't want to write down to them, but I do want them to have something they can access for themselves. Hmm, yeah, that's really thoughtful. That's really cool. That's very clever to to be able to write like that. And also, because your first will not actually your first book, but the book when about being China, about that was written for like, you know, the young adults, and then you can write for little people, two sets, and you've written for adults as well, like, that's very versatile. It's, well, you can play instruments, and I can't do that. Oh, I tell you what, I hold musicians as the top talent, as far as I'm concerned, as far as out of scope, because it's like musicians can hold a world in their heads. It's not just words, but it's all these different sounds that come together to create one sound. And for me, that is just like the epitome of creativity. It's I'd never thought of it that way. It's probably what I get so distracted. Oh, that's funny. I've always found this fascinating. And I have had many conversations with teachers over the years about how, how do we actually learn to read write. And I didn't actually really know there were these two clear different sort of forces of opinion working against each other. About, I always wondered whether you actually, like, picked up each letter and sanded down each letter. And that was how you got it, or whether you just recognize almost like, Hey, you recognize logos or symbols that you just remembered. That's how that word looks. And it was fascinating. When you write in the book that even now when we read, as adults, like fluent readers, we're still doing that, almost like the phonics way. In a while we're reading and I thought, gee, that's interesting. So rather than again, maybe try and explain, could you share some intelligent thoughts. So, so one of the amazing things that came up in some of my early research, and this sounds like such a simple thing, but it is actually mind blowing, is that while we are our brains, while we are born with brains that have the capacity for oral language, that is, while we're inside the womb, we are actually learning the tone. And we're learning we're developing the skills to be able to speak just from listening to our mother's mother speaking. So we have a French speaking mother will be attuned to Frenchmen were born, bilingual parents, children, attune to two languages, and so on. So we were born with the brains that have the capacity to be able to use our language, because our language is 100,000 years old. Written language, however, is only five and a half 1000 years old. So we actually don't have a space in our brain when we're born, that is set up for reading. So we have to actually rewire a part of our brain to be able to be a skilled to read and fluent reader. So the way that this is done is that part of the brain that is used for visual processing combines with another part that's used with oral and this is a very, very simple way of just describing very dense neuroscience. But essentially, it's recycled. So that we create what this very famous French professor has called the letterbox His name is Stanislas de Haan, you can find his talks online, He's extraordinary. We can now look inside brains because of neuroscience and see what's happening as we acquire reading skills. And so that's how they've been able to actually scientifically prove what happens in the brain when we learn to read. So before we were able to do that, like you say, there was a couple of schools of thought about how it might be that we acquire reading and one of them was the whole word approach that we do. We see a word like an image and we store it, and that then is retained and retrieved when we need that word. But we now know that in fact, what we're doing painstakingly as a child, is breaking words down into a code sounding out all the little pieces of the word. So pH sounds like, you know that oh can sound a few different ways. And so we do that painstakingly as a child, but the more we practice that the more that wiring happens in our brain, so it becomes automatic. But if we're not taught those skills, which the broad umbrella comes under the umbrella of phonics, but it's also thought of as decoding where we actually break the word down together to create meaning, then we can potentially get by for a while, because for a while, there will be certain words that we can recognize up to a certain extent, or we can guess by using the cues in the book by looking at the pictures. But once we get to that grade three, that's when we when you actually see that kids who haven't acquired those reading skills, really plateau and flounder, and that's what happened with my son. So some kids will seem to pick it up naturally or by osmosis by not being taught to decode, but some kids won't. So the the people who argue for teaching phonics from early on, the argument is that while some kids will manage to learn to read, just by doing some guessing and managing to create some kind of reading skills on their own without being specifically taught, there'll be many that aren't. So this is a way that guarantees that all kids will be taught to read. Now if you're dyslexic, you may need extra support and extra practice outside of the classroom, same skills, but you can you may need up to four times the amount of practice than a non dyslexic, but even Dyslexics can be taught to read if they're taught with this very systematic phonics instruction. So somehow it's you know, I didn't have a stake on either side and you know, Think about it or read the brain science. And it really just comes out time and time again, for people who know this stuff. I'm just sharing what I've learned that that is the way that we can guarantee that kids won't fall through the cracks. And somehow there are still arguments about it. But for me, you know, this might be controversial. It feels like listening to flat Earth as argue now, yes, there was a time, we couldn't know if the earth was round. But now we know what happens in the brain as we learn to read. And the best practice of teaching it, we just don't need to get on board. That's it will go through school like my Sam did without learning how to read and everything will fall apart there. So we're in a transition phase, there's a lot of extraordinary mothers that are lobbying to have screening done really early on to be able to pick out kids that are struggling to read, they're out, unfortunately, becomes political. But there are, you know, there are lots of people now who are advocating to have one form of teaching Trump taught across the board to ensure that all kids are taught to read, having said that, the argument against phonics is that people will say, Oh, it's boring, it's dull. It's like what was done in the 1950s. And it'll turn kids off reading. Yeah, it can seem a little bit boring and dull, like learning, you know, the notes for piano, for example, in the very early days, that can seem pretty boring. But meanwhile, you're playing music to them. So they're thinking, oh, one day, I'll be able to do that. So of course, while kids are learning to decode by using this explicit systematic phonics instruction, you read them beautiful literature, so they know what they're going to be able to access once they develop those skills for themselves. And that's what parents can do at home. So the worst thing that any parent can be told now, I realize is that if you read your to your child enough, they will just pick up reading, because that is awful for a parent that's done everything right to here, and their child still doesn't read. So they need to be taught. And you can support that at home by reading to them from birth, but it's not your responsibility to teach them. Yeah, that's it. And then it takes out that that horrible sort of the guilt ridden pneus that a lot of us moms feel when it's like, what did we do wrong? I thought we did what everyone said to do, you know, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And it was interesting in the book to those example, those couple of examples around that phonics was a I can't think of the exact time period. But in America, at one point, they completely changed how they were teaching it my saying this right, and then all of a sudden, the decline, like was measurable of because they changed how they were teaching. Sorry, can you make sense of that? Yeah, lots of those texts coming out. Lots of those stats are coming out now about, you know, people are looking for all different reasons as to why we have a society that reads less of that kids are getting to the end of primary school and not being able to have basic literacy skills. There are lots of speculation around that. But all the research is showing that a lot of it is just because they haven't been explicitly taught. So I do give examples in the book of some schools that have changed the whole teaching program around and gone from the lowest rung of the NAPLAN results in reading to the top rep. And these are in disadvantaged areas and not ones that are getting tutoring outside school. So it's also a way that we can ensure that it's not just the kids that grow up in educated, privileged, financially secure households, like my son get the support they need. But all kids even in non English speaking background, in apartments, where maybe they're sharing one computer amongst, you know, five kids, or, you know, every child needs to be able to given the same stat in life. That's what our public education system is about. And so the only way to ensure that all kids can access literacy skills that they're going to need is by teaching them in this specific way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good job. And I'm doing it on behalf of other people, because obviously, I can't know if Sam would have been a fluent reader had he been taught differently. You know, it's not a sliding door situation. I can't go back and do it all again. But from every single expert I've spoken to and all the research has come out and all the books I've read. It points to that. Yep. There's a quote in there by Astrid Lindgren, who's an extraordinary Swedish writer, she was extraordinarily successful in her time. And she just has this beautiful quote that I put in the back of the book that give your children love, more love, and more love, and the rest will come. And I think, you know, it can be easy to project, our idea of success on our kids or who we think our kids should be. But I think in the end, if they can go through life, knowing that someone just loves them completely for who they are, that's about the best thing you can do for them. And I think that's the most important thing I tried to instill in my son is if he's a good and worthy person, no matter what he chooses to do with his life. Yeah, that's lovely. That's beautiful. And I'm going to add a quote to that. I can't remember who said it in the book, but it said, trust your kids, they will show themselves to you and be ready to love who you say. I thought that was a really good one. That was you that said, bravo to you. Well done. Well, thank you so much, Sally. It's been such a joy chatting to you. And thank you for sharing your story and your son's story. And yeah, being a part of of the chat today. It's been lovely. It's been really nice chatting with you. I feel like we could probably go on for hours. We probably have to break out the wine soon. All right, cyanide. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with a Nazi stick mum

Pariya Ziakas Australian visual artist and art educator S1 Ep06 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Pariyah Ziakas is a painter and high school teacher, perhaps best known in Mount Gambier for her stobie pole project. She is mother of 2 "gremlins' and in this episode we chat about how her children are an integral part of her art, how they support her practice and encourage her to see the world through different eyes. Pariyah shares how she encourages her children to chase their dreams, and how she has built a family unit where everyone contributes. **This episode contains discussion around premature birth** Connect with Artscapes Creatives to find upcoming events instagram / Website Pariyah instagram - Podcast - instagram / website Music in this episode used with permission from Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... elcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from artists and creative mothers sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mum and continue to make art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Perea. Z. ARPUs. Perea is a painter and high school teacher, perhaps best known in Mount Gambier for her Stobi poll project. She is a mother of two children, who she affectionately referred to as the gremlins. This episode contains discussion around premature birth. Welcome to the podcast prayer. It's wonderful to have you here today. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me. Yeah, it's a pleasure. I'm a little bit familiar with you as an artist, I follow you on Instagram and see what you're up to. But for those people that might not be familiar with you and your work, could you give us a rundown of this sort of art that you do. You're also a school teacher, so maybe just sharing a little bit about how you got into art? what you've been up to that kind of thing? Yeah, of course. So I guess not many people would actually probably know my art practice, they probably would know me more as that lady that painted the Stobi poles and the art teacher as well. So it's kind of when I was at university. Obviously, I was studying an undergraduate but that was when I kind of really found my passion. Had lots of exhibitions Miss met lots of like minded people as well. Unfortunately, with everything that happens life, you know, move back to mat Gambia after my mom had passed away. And all of those other aspirations kind of put on were put on the back burner, and I did my teaching degree. So it wasn't until recently, probably about 2019 that I've actually returned to my own artmaking. So it's been a very long process. So I've always had this interest and passion for the body and movement. Law lot of the artwork that I was producing at university was based around my husband and my relationship. So I used to do a lot of figurative work. So linking in the bodies, and then kind of went into abstraction, a lot of surrealist pieces. However, now I'm finding that more of a lot more of my artwork is becoming more about my environment around me and the influences of the Gremlins, obviously, still my husband, but just you know, that my external environment around me at the moment. So do you remember how you got into art when when you were younger? Was it something that was sort of in your face? I do. I remember, we lived in Lucerne Dale when I was younger. And I remember my teacher and Ted did this candle making. And they entered the into the little Delfield days and I won. I won, I won 50 cents an hour. It was amazing. But I just I mean, it wasn't just the money, but I just remember I remember thinking how much fun I had with the whole making experience. And then I guess from then I just I remember as a kid just doing lots and lots of sketches and just having copious folios just, you know, scribbling in all the time, and definitely in my teenage years, obviously, studying art and design as well. And I had a brilliant teacher when I was in Year 12, who I currently work with as well. So Leah Fox is amazing. So yeah, so that's always been a big part of my life. I guess. It's just, you know, finding that time to explore and experiment. Yeah, for sure. And you're not only being a school teacher you also run classes and events for the community as well like anyone can come along and do do classes with you. So recently a another local artist and myself So Ruth Stevenson and I work colleagues but we're also local artists and she and I have been providing second paint sessions in my Gambia. So we we kicked off with the fringe event this year, kind of feels like Yeah, so we kicked off our fringe event and we we are hashtag two girls painting so Artscape with one works is what we call ourselves and we've had such a positive some feedback from the community that we ran another session with one Suncoast pantry as well. And another question that Caroline hills and then another one at NARA, obviously, you know, we did have unplanned for this weekend. And unfortunately with the lockdown, we've had to postpone that for now. So but we are still most definitely looking at creating more and more experiences for their community to actually be a part of. So yeah, definitely jump on board, check us out on Instagram. And you'll see more and more of us coming out lately, the projects? Do you think that the concept of being able to drink wine while you paint is a really tantalizing sort of draw for people who might be nervous about painting, but then the inhibition sort of disappear a little bit with that with that one? I think I definitely think so. And I think the space that we that Ruth and I are providing is a fun, safe space. So you know, people feel as though they are not being judged. You know, there's there's no real criticism, they can basically express themselves. And a lot of these sessions have seen groups of people coming in and enjoying that time together. So you know, whether it's a birthday, or it's just a girls night out, we've had also we've had, it's not just for females as well. So we've had male participants as well who have really enjoyed themselves. But yeah, definitely, as you say, we've definitely found that, you know, that glass of wine helps sort of free those inhibitions. However, we also have a number of participants who don't partake in that alcohol sign and you know them I have a mocktail, or they're just completely experienced, so, which is really nice to see. So in the support, everything that we perceive has been amazing. Do you so obviously you're finding more women are coming to the classes? Yeah, I think so more, obviously, more women than men deciding to participate, I think just because it's a little bit more of a, you know, that whole idea of a girls night out, you know, the afternoon with the girls as well. So, however, the event we had at Canara, we had a handful of male participants there as well. And they were really surprised with the night and how they actually went and what they were able to actually create as well. And what we love is what I'm loving is that the intimate the individuality that's coming out out of all of these sessions as well. So, you know, we give guests samples and you know, this is potentially what you could create. However, at the end of the day, if you want to do a landscape, but we presented you with a still life, then go for it. It is all about that artistic interpretation. So yeah. Expressive. Yeah. Yeah. Fun. Yep. That's that's social aspect and that community sort of aspect more than it's not about creating something that has to be perfect and it's going to be critique. That's, that's wonderful. So you mentioned briefly your Gremlins, you affectionately refer to your children? Yeah. Tell us about them. The gremlins? Yes. So, my oldest daughter is her name is Ciara and she is eight. And then my son Trey is seven years old. And yes, I affectionately call them the gremlins. I just remember, you know what I was like, I remember when I was babies, and they used to feed. It was just this. It was like they could not stop that were like little animals. Just, I just remember saying to my husband once. Well, they like gremlins. They're just in anywhere and it just kind of stuck. And yeah. So but they're amazing. They probably one of my biggest supporters throughout this whole artistic venture. They just yeah, they love seeing what mums going to create. What's what's you know, what's the next project and our our lounge room slash kitchen slash dining area is now mums, makeshift studio space. It's everywhere. It definitely involved in it. It's right there they are. Yeah, yeah. They are very much a part of my making process more so than I realize I think especially with the concepts and the ideas that I have. A lot of work come from them. They're such they're such animated individuals, those two they could play for hours and hours on end, just imagination play. They, it's amazing to watch. And we still the conversations that we have. I remember doing a concept. And it was, you know, my daughter just asked me her mom, what does? What does the rainbow tastes like? You know, what about clouds? You know, what do you think they taste like? And then what would happen if we nibble this together? What if we took them camping would be so amazing. But yeah, it's it's that childhood imagination. That's pretty magic. It allows you to sort of think about things in a different way that you probably haven't thought of for a long time. Oh, absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Not take life so seriously, sometimes. And your children actually appear in your work as well. I've noticed on the Stobi polls, they you're a little Yes. If you're in there. They do they. As I said, they have such a big part of my art making, I guess that whole experience of you'll notice I've already I've got two concepts on the poles. One's on my daughter, she's in her dance gear. You might notice that baby panda is their toy. Yeah, her toy. Teddy is the fifth member of our family. And I swear, that is the luckiest Panda, toy panda ever, that PanDa has been to Europe, Asia, it's been around all parts of Australia. My husband has run back to blocks in Rome, because she left it at a b&b in Rome. So he's during the back, we've been home and he's driven all the way back to Millicent because she left baby panda at the playground. Oh, I know. So yes, they are very much a part of my artmaking I think I kind of feel like it would be a real disconnect if they weren't. For me, personally, as I said, it's, you know, you're with your children, a lot of the time and the conversations that we have, and I feel as though you know, from when I started from 2019. Until now, I'm really starting to see my skills and my art practice start to develop a little bit more, as well. And they are very much a part of that as well. Is it important to you that they are a part of it, like you want them to know what you're doing? And that art is so important in your life? You want to give them that sort of appreciation for having having a an outlet, I suppose. Different to you? Yeah, absolutely. I definitely do. I, you know, everything that I do, artists, not just artistic way, but the events that we've that I've been running with roof with a sip and paint. I don't keep anything like that from them. So they know exactly what I'm doing. And they helped me with my Instagram posts, because I'm not great. And it takes a really long time. And I'm still learning up. I've only joined Instagram in the past two years. And Facebook as well. So it's it's been an eye opener for me, but they are such an encouragement. And they also tell Mom, you're doing a really good job. But what do you think about using this picture instead of this picture? And then they'll come out with colors? And it's just it's yeah, it's a really nice, I want them to be able to see that if they are passionate about something, then they can go for it. And there's no, there's no limit. I don't want them to just settle for oh, well, you know, this is life. So but you know, something they can they need to go and work for and make it happen that makes them happy. Mom guilt or that sort of, I know that that's a word that the society sort of throws around. Yeah. How do you feel about that? Ah, I've always had that mum guilt, even before I became a mum or even before I started that are making. I'm a very sort of, you know, give 150% to everything that I do. And when I started teaching, that was very much how I was, you know, I wanted to really sort of feel comfortable in that space. And I remember returning back to work, I returned full time because my husband and I husband and I swap so he stayed at home with the gremlins. So he was at home for four years and then I was at work and you know, the teaching teachers and teaching life is very, it seems to be continuous. You know, you don't kind of just Nish walk out that door at four o'clock. You don't you know, your mind doesn't quite always switch off so it's when I'm not playing it's, you know, I'm marking or I'm planning I'm always doing something so yeah, there was always that little bit of guilt. They felt and I I always have that anyway, I think, I don't know whether you have that as well. But it's not just that mum guilt. It's like, it's the wife guilt. It's the friend guilt. It's the WHEN DO WE it's very hard to make time for everybody. I think now I think more. So it's important for me to realize that not to think of it as mum guilt anymore, but but realize that I think they need to have a better version of mum. And if Mum needs to be in that creative space, then they're going to get a better version of me, rather than me sort of trying not to be in that creative space, if that makes sense. No, it makes perfect sense. So it's something that you require for yourself to make you the person that you want to be to present to your children, I suppose. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And they can see, you know, they see the difference that makes in me, as well, as my husband is the same. It's, I've, I now understand, you know, I will be 40 next year. But now I understand how important it is just to have that time and to take that time. And it's, you know, we shouldn't feel guilty about it. Because when we don't take that time, it's like, you bottle all of that energy up. And then unfortunately, that becomes really toxic. And I don't want that to happen. So often, I can't be creative. And I'm not the the best version of myself for them. Absolutely. You mentioned about your husband, being at home with the kids while you went back to work, that level of support that you had, it's it's so important, isn't it having having that around you to be able to achieve what you want to do not just in your art, but you know, your your working life, which is so much to do with our kids too, to see that. There are other ways for families to function. Isn't this just traditional mom stays at home or dad goes off to it? Yeah, absolutely. They he Yeah, he is a an amazing role model for the gremlins. You know, it's, we'll try to see that, like you said, it's not just the females role to do the cooking and the cleaning, and do the washing and take care of the kids. It's, you know, we share that role. And we we are a family units like everyone contributes as well. And, you know, we'll raise the Gremlins that way as well. Mum and Dad Don't do anything for you. We you know, we don't call it chores, it's about helping the family unit and helping us function as a really positive family unit. So, you know, there are times when my and my son has said, you know, I didn't like clean my room cleaning my room, but I know I have to get it done. I'm like, Yeah, exactly. That's right. And if you don't get it done, I'm gets really angry. And then she uses that really loud mumble is that you don't like so just cleaning up. So yeah, but no, it's been such an amazing support and through everything I am. I'm like, Oh, my ideas are like, whoa, I've got so many things going on. And then I said, Hey, I've got this idea. And when I make this happen, I want to do this, I'm gonna do that. And then he'll just really calmly go, okay, so how are you going to make this happen? What are some of the things to think of so he's very much that town, he'll bring back down to earth and go, I think, Ah, damn, so right. Okay, hang on. What I can do this part of it. Maybe not just all of it right now. The and he got any remarks? And he says, Well, you know, remember you are you work full time. When are you going to do the rest of this? Okay, well, do you know what? There's some of the weekends, I can do things on the weekends, and I can do things work, and I can. But he never says no way, which is great. Yeah, so he's like, he's that little sort of balance the balance to your enthusiasm, but without shutting it down. It's it's molding and finding the ways that it can you actually happen. Yeah. He just, I think, because he knows if he shuts it down. I'm just like, oh, but what is? What if we did this instead? Like what do you think about this instead? So yeah, I said to him in lockdown when I said, I really want to paint the stove with poles. And he said, right. Hey, and do that might just email counsel and see what happens. So and I kind of scrolled on from there so he would prime the stove poles and pressure clean them and bring things bring me things when I forgotten things when I'm at the polls. I need I need this creek. Can you read this? Yeah, yeah, that's what I was like when I was at crowded streets. So I've left this color at home. Could you please just bring it really quickly? Just pop the Gremlins in the car won't take very long. Do you find yourself? Like when you're moving around town, whether you're driving or walking, you're just constantly looking at blank spaces like I could paint on there. It's like you read my mind all the time and the grandmas say it now too. They go, Mom, he would love that worldspace Mom, there's this fencing and it's just plain. Yeah. So this, they find the spaces all the time. And because I started in our hallway, as well, so painters, it's not quite finished yet, but we made it a bit of a family project. So they started I let them have a space down the bottom of each of the walls and then I would just go over the top and create but yet that I haven't finished. After that I went to the letterbox. After the letterbox I went to the store reposts. And then you went to the arcade as well. You've done? Yes, yeah. Yeah, so Ruth and I collab did a collaboration with that one. So we applied for the Creative Arts Fund last year to be able to work in that space. And I, I don't know if you remember, like, it's almost I vaguely remember what it was like, but just walking through that space, it was just so gloomy and just didn't have that inviting appearance about it. And the idea of a celebration of dance was actually roofs, main idea. And then we worked in together to actually create the actual mural space itself. It's like, over 20 meters long. So yeah, it's amazing now and I walked in there last week, or maybe the week after, to the Gremlins down there, to pick up dinner and just had been down there at night time. And I had to record it because it just it just looks so much fun. And they still love it. They still love sort of weaving through the polls and, you know, running along and you know, doing all the little poses of the silhouettes. So yeah, it's just opened it up. And so many people have just said that it's become such a more inviting and a real a lot safer space, they feel a lot safer in that space to walk down as well. That's a good point. Yeah. When you had your children, were you using art then as a sort of a tool to to spend time within yourself like as your own sort of outlet? No, nothing. I had, it sounds really odd, but I I was not doing any form of art making. So when I finished university, as I said, after my mum passed away, I spent one more year at uni wasn't a full year. So I finished my degree, and then we moved back to my Gambia because I had a younger sister. So I wanted to be with them. And then I didn't do anything. I just went and did my teaching degree. And then I needed to be here I'm at Gambia, and then I got a teaching position. And just from there, I just went, I went straight into teaching and I just sort of gave that 100% And then I had the Gremlins and I just remember when Chara she or she didn't sleep, so she liked the first I remember saying to my sister, when I got home, I rang my sister and I was not happy. I said how I said you're a bitch. You didn't tell me any of this. You didn't tell me that this was what it was going to be like she said to me, I keep I'd said anything. You wouldn't have any kids. I just that first night we bought her home, she slept for 15 minute intervals. And like when we were in the hospital, she was the only baby that you could hear crying. Myself and my husband quite a bit of time to actually get her settled in. I didn't know I was so naive. I just thought babies did the wrong thing. I thought all they did was eat and sleep. And they had to teach them how to breastfeed. Oh, yes. Sasha. Emotional you know motherhood Is it strange enough? Uh, but you know, it doesn't come with a manual and it's yeah, it just took me a really long time to get my mind around that but then we had Chara and try so close together. So I got pregnant with Trey when Ciara was six months old. And then he was born with the earliest so he was born at 26 weeks. So we had such a tumultuous time like we spent 10 weeks in Adelaide. Ah, just so many things were going on. But I did keep a journal though I kept a journal when I used to do lots of little sketches in there. So here's two books are filled, which I've actually learned to two other friends who've had kids prematurely. So they've really got a bit of support from that and be the help from that. So, but yeah, I didn't, and then nothing happened until, yeah, sort of end of 2018 2019 I started kind of, you know, they'll both backups, they were both at school. So I felt as though I had a bit more time for me. And then the other big thing is putting yourself out there, as well as not just a person, but just as an artist, you know, actually, I've always been really self conscious about doing that. So it took me a while to go, Well, you know what, I can do this, I, you know, if people want to judge and that's fine. And then, yeah, I set up the account, my sister helped me out. It was like back and forth over the phone for about a month. And she's, I know, you're not doing this right, you get up like this. And then, anyway, yeah, I'm 2019 I started creating work. And I'd entered a couple of competitions, all unsuccessful. I've entered a few art competitions, and none of them have been successful. But I'm really proud of myself, because I'm getting myself out there. And practicing, I'm making I'm, you know, being critical of myself and challenging myself, which is, I think, a really big move for me, you know, three years of actual actively making for me, but also for my family has been just exactly what my soul has needed. So you briefly mentioned the Gremlins are doing the we're helping out with the painting in the hallway? Are they like artistic, they're following your footsteps in that sort of way they love their painting and, and that they do? Yeah, they I think my son has a bit more patience, when it comes to sort of the more hands on sort of sculpture work, he loves that side of it. Whereas Chara has a lot more patience with with renderings, so blending colors together. So she's really finding that knack. However, I can't tell them, you know, just because I'm an art teacher, and myself doesn't mean that they're gonna listen to me because they know better. I'm just back off. And I know, I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm doing. I don't want to try and blend, you know, these two different tones of green together because I know what I'm doing. But ya know, they any sort of that that creative side, they both have piano lessons. And she does calisthenics? Yeah, they're very, very creative, but they will often make me these little notes with characters and you know, it's Have a nice day, Mom, you're the best mom in the world kind of type thing. So which is really, really sweet. So yeah, I am. That yeah, I definitely that artistic side. I can see from both of them. That's wonderful. 26 weeks is very early, isn't it? Yeah, it is very early. Yes. He was a big surprise. Yeah. Big surprise. I I remember that day, we were doing Christmas photos. So we're trying to get Chara to stay on. Just stay still, essentially. And she kept like so anyway, they wouldn't have gone out to mow the lawns. And I just when I woke up that morning, I didn't feel right. I felt really uncomfortable. And I felt a bit sore. But, you know, after you have the first one, you always kind of think, oh, that's normal, because body's already shifted in so many different ways. And you've got this other child that you're carrying. Sorry, I just didn't think anything of it until I actually went to pick her up and I dropped him I couldn't actually yeah, it was I was in that much pain. So he came in and but yeah, it was by the time we got to the hospital. I was already four and a half centimeters dilated. So yeah, they tried to stop all my contractions and everything but I didn't work so they I had him here. It just so happened that day that I had him every single specialist was actually in town. Yep, highly recommend having a baby during the day. That's really helpful. So he was born on Tuesday afternoon. And yeah, but they were amazing. Dr. Weather all delivered him. And they I saw him for about five seconds, and they put him into a sandwich bag, he fit into a little sandwich bag, put him into a little sandwich bag, and MedStar came and got him. And he flew to Adelaide with my husband. So then I had to stay that night because I had an emergency C section. So and then my sister in law kind of got Chara, and she and that's the longest that we've actually the first time the longest we've actually spent away from beer. So she stayed in that Gambia for seven days. And then they drove up to Adelaide after that. So yeah, wow. an ordeal? Absolutely. But it's lovely that you were able to use your journals that you wrote to share with others to help with them experience. Yep. Yeah, I just, I remember what it was like. And I first deal on if we can offer them any sort of support. I said, I'll do it. So yeah, I've always said the moment that's my sister's friends that are in Adelaide at the moment. So they've got the journals, and they've got the little Teddy's that he's had, as well. So yeah, it's not a it's not an easy, easy thing to go through. It's like, you know, up and down, and I couldn't imagine. And these couples, the two couples that are going through it, this is their first child. So you imagine, you know, not even have that not even having that experience first, and then having your very first child and not knowing whether they're going to survive is just heartbreaking. Having to make so many decisions for your child is Yeah, it's really, yeah, as I said, heartbreaking. Yeah. Yeah, but he is like, if you meet him, he is you won't even you won't even tell that he was Prime baby. He is like 200% My me like things happening all the time. For me. He's He's exactly like me. He is like, he cancelled his brain off. He's, he's like, City's active all the time. He has to be moving. To the point where even when he was a toddler, he would fall off his dinner chair quite often because he just can't sit still. Always. raring to go. He just wants to get in and get things done. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I always say that that's why he came early. Because he just yeah, that's it just couldn't why? Oh, yeah. Think I, I actually have a really strong network of friends like a very strong group of friends. So and they amazing women who are so creative, not specifically artistically, but the creative in their own way. You know, they run their own businesses. One is a works with hair and makeup. She's built her business from the ground up, another one, runs her own restaurant with her husband, once again, built their business from the ground up. Another one has just recently opened, started her own business from home. And my other girlfriends are just so strong, not necessary. Ly, about that. female empowerment, but it's just about the strength that they have. Individually and not realizing it. I think that's just, I think I really wanted to be able to talk about that and just say that, you know, they, I'm so proud of them. And they inspire me more than they know, I think. And they're all mothers and they all have their own beautiful creative side. But they as I said, they're so strong and they don't even realize it most of the time I think that is exactly what I did for so long. I think you know, not valuing my own process for a long time and not realizing that I actually really need this as well. And now that I'm doing it, I am so much better for it. And the family unit is so much better for it. I mean, not all the time because mom is always busy behad in a good way. You know they love going to bed and I've just started a piece and then they wake up in the morning and they see it and they just go wow Mom, did you do this awesome. Oh, okay, yeah, I'm Sam. Um, I've got, um, like magic magic wand, and it just happened. So they so proud of you. It's pretty sweet. Yes, beautiful you have anything else coming up that you wanted to share? Well, definitely had to take your girls painting Artscape. So Ruth and I are definitely still going to be working with and planning more events, obviously, just with the COVID locked down restrictions at the moment, it just means that it's just been pushed back a little bit, but we're still, it's all still happening. I'm still going to be making. So I've actually got a canvas that I actually started last week. So that's pretty exciting. So I'm definitely still, as I said, earlier, I'm still entering all these different art competitions, and I'm just gonna still sort of not be successful, but I'm still gonna do it. It's, you know, what's out there? What is important? So, yeah, it is a big step. Isn't it though saying, I'm willing to fail, basically, like you're willing to say, I want people to know who I am. And I don't mind, you're not the best at it. But I just want to share what I've got, I suppose, yeah, I'd like to see my artwork out there. I think I love that's the great thing about social media about Instagram is that you can make connections with somebody from across the world. And even with everything that is happening out there happening now this pandemic that we're seeing ourselves living through, you know, I'm making connections with artists from England, and I'm making connections with artists from all different parts of the world. But the fact is that at the moment, he made that artistic process, it's getting a lot of people through COVID. And the loneliness that some people might feel, you know, being on that online platform is, is that little bit of support, as well. And you know, if you can scroll some of those pages and see some artwork, some amazing processes coming through, and that might help somebody then I think that's beautiful. Absolutely. And it is it's so important right now that we do stay connected, even though we're not, we're not next to each other. But we're we're still communicating. And like you said, if someone can see something you've painted, and just take some comfort from that, I suppose. And again, they make that so important. Yeah. bring a smile to someone's day. I always say choose kind. Thank you so much prayer. It's been an absolute pleasure having you and sharing with us and all the best. Thank you so much for having me. I've loved talking to you. I thank you. Yeah, it's been great. Take care of yourself, and stay safe, and enjoy time with your family. Yeah, thanks so much prayer. It's been lovely. Thanks, Alison. Perea would like to thank Tracy Davies from gorilla art group in Adelaide, who helped her with her Stobi poll painting project, not a new concept, but a new initiative in the Gambia. And Perea was really proud to have brought

Lyss Morton US event florist, podcaster + entrepreneur S2 Ep72 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Lyss Morton is an event florist and entrepreneur from New Jersey USA and a mum of 2. 2 years ago Lyss and her husband began a floral design business, doing weddings and events, and floral preservation. Lyss credits her love for flowers to her grandmother. Lyss describes herself as multi passionate, and a serial entrepreneur. She produces 2 podcasts, The Making Mommy Moves podcast and The Power Couple podcast, has a digital production company called Mama Media and another florist related business. Lyss is also writing her first book and has plans for more. Today we chat about boundary setting, people pleasing, our old favourite mum guilt and cultural role modelling. **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and birth trauma** Connect with Lyss - website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. My guest this week is Liz Morton. Liz is an event florist and entrepreneur from New Jersey in the USA and a mom of two. Two years ago Listen, her husband began a floral design business doing weddings and events and floral preservation. Liz credits her love of flowers to her grandmother. She describes herself as multi passionate and a serial entrepreneur. This produces two podcasts, the making mommy moves podcast, and the power couple podcast with her husband. She has a digital production company called mama media, and another floral related business. Lisa is also writing her first book and has plans for more. Today we chat about boundary setting people pleasing our perennial favorite mom guilt, and cultural role modeling. This episode contains discussions around postnatal depression, and birth trauma. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a list of great international resources, which is listed on the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you'll hear today is used with permission from LM J, which is my new age and ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoy today's chat. Welcome to the podcast. Listen, that's really lovely to have you and to meet you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I appreciate you having me on your show. Oh, no worries at all. Now, we're about to you based. I'm in New Jersey, over across the big pond. Yeah. Yeah. Whereabouts is that in America? We're on the east coast. So right around your Pennsylvania. tri state area. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, I can visualize where that is. It's good. Yeah. And you're coming into what you call it fall over there. Do we call it autumn here? Yeah, it hit us in the face a couple of weeks ago. We have a garden that we grow in all the time. And we're like right on the cusp of everything dying. Yeah, that changes seasons. Always fun. Where where are the other side? We're coming into summer like we're in spring and everything starting to grow like crazy. And all the weeds are coming up because it's raining and feet of warmth. And yeah, I feel like I'm just forever picking waves out of a garden now. A good time of year though. Ah, do you see love say Oh, my roses have come out now. So it's it's good. Like, like this time of year? You do lots of different things, don't you but your use? Did you say am I right in saying you started out as a florist? Is that right? Yeah. Um, well, I'll give you a little bit of a backstory. I wasn't always a florist. I started as a medical biller in a chiropractic office for about 10 years of my life. And I was like, I hate this. So I started working with flowers. And I became an event florist and now we serve events all throughout New Jersey and the surrounding area, bringing weddings to life primarily for couples. And how long have you been doing that for about two years? Yes. So no, I'm, but we went. We grew really quickly in that time. Yeah. So do you do you source your flowers or do you grow a lot yourself? Or do both? Yeah, we started primarily growing our own flowers. And then it was time management wise. We couldn't with everything that we were doing for the events and planning and meeting send everything, we didn't have the time to commit to growing everything ourselves. So we like to say that we work some of our garden and grown blooms into their designs. But we actually are sourcing and then like in her bridal bouquet will incorporate some of our envelopes. Awesome. That'd be really fun. One of my favorites. My wedding was was picking out my flowers. I really enjoyed that part of it. And I reckon I spent, like, percentage wise, I spent a pretty high percent on my flowers because like, I just love them. I just wanted them to be like, really big. Yes. Oh, so what's, what are the flowers at the moment over there that a lot? Or do you buy them like from people that grow them all year round, like the stuff that's particularly in season at the moment. Right now we're finishing out the season locally, there are a couple of growers that have some greenhouses that were able to get stuff. But right now, like we're getting the end of the dahlia is for santha mums. And then like anything that is grown in the greenhouse is amazing. But we primarily sourced from other wholesalers that import flowers from, you know, the Ecuador and South America and other places like that some California stuff. So primarily, we're integrating the local flowers in with the overseas stuff. Yeah, cool. Oh, that's awesome. What made you go into flowers, we've been we've always been a gardener or just thought it would be fun to do for if I give a lot of the credit to my grandma, because she had the most amazing garden and she still does, it's, it takes up her entire backyard. And it's like on a nice beautiful creek. So it just looks like it's meant to be there. So I I blame her for my flower bug that I have. Um, but I really like I can't say that like, they were my go to thing. I loved getting flowers. And then when I wanted to create my own business, I was like, what brings me joy. And I love flowers. There was like, let's start that. And I just took every workshop and every course that I could find on the topic and dug in. Yeah. Well, that's great. Good news. And you say wait, I'm guessing that's your your husband and you work together? Yes. Yeah, we're we're good partnership. Okay, ego right together, you don't have to renew legally disagree with anything awesome. You also do podcasting, and lots of other different things. So can you share with us? What else do you do that keeps you busy? Yeah, I'm thinking to say that I'm multi passionate, I've got a lot of different things that I have going on. So I'm in the process of writing my first book, I've got a podcast, it's called the making mommy moves show. I've got our floral design business where we do events. And then we also preserve flowers for our couples and anywhere in the US or that they're able to ship them. We had one come from Mexico, where we encase their flowers and resin or press designs. We've got another business where it's very, very niche specific, we help other event floors, clean up their events. At the end of the wedding, we help them collect all the rental items and any other decor that they have. And then something more recently that I started was it's called mama media. It's a digital like production company where we do like podcast editing and YouTube Editing and stuff like that. Hmm. There's a lot of different things going on. And yeah, multi passionate, that's a great way of describing it. So you just really like, like, like doing things you like being busy and being creative. Like, that's, that's what drives you. Yes, very much. Yeah. Yeah. People think it's a little crazy. But you know, when you have a knack for something, and you just I'm, I say that I'm a quickstart personality. So it's like I get an idea. And I have to jump on it. My husband and I were actually just talking about that this morning, because it's actually a little overwhelming at times, trying to manage it all, especially being a mom and everything else that we have going on his family. So we're trying to be more intentional about the things that we take on and limit the project so that we're able to actually follow through on them too. Huh, yeah, cuz that overwhelm is a big thing, isn't it? And then you get all the different things thrown at you family wise and children wise things are always jumping up and surprising. It's out of the blue. Exactly. Tell me more about your book, what is the Book about? So I'm reading my book about different business processes as a wedding florist. I'm working with Jake Calper. Like he's doing a fun, like challenge. So every day for 90 days, we're working on a book together. And it's just an hour a day that I'm dedicating to the process. And it's been really enlightening, because he just wants you to just do it and get it done. So I'm following his framework in order to do it. Because you know, as moms and business owners, we have very little time, or at least it feels that way. So I'm just trying to break it down into smaller pieces. And it's nonfiction obviously. And I'm just trying to get the parts one done and out and make it mean something and also be helpful to other business owners and mompreneurs. And then I'm gonna move on to my next one. Yeah. So if you got, you've got your idea for you to explore, I've already got a couple of them. And it was like difficult for me to choose one. So this one is about business ownership. And then I have one that I want to like write about with my mom and like our relationship together. I've got a couple different ideas like it works. Well, that's great. So you say you, you can eat just an hour a day? Do you ever find that you just cannot get the hour in? Or is that something that you make sure you definitely do every day no matter what. I give myself some grace. So especially as a wedding florist, like we're just getting out of our peak wedding season, there were some weeks that we had four weddings in the weekend that we're trying to get out the door and servants. Obviously, they're our priority next to my kids. So it's like we're trying to make sure that they're taken care of that our contracts are fulfilled. And that's taken care of. So I am giving myself some grace if for some reason I am too busy dividend. What about your podcast? Tell us a little bit more about that. Yes, so it's called the making mommy move show. And it's primarily a come along with me, because we don't have it all figured out. But we want to be able to document the journey as we create our we have a lot of big goals that we're working towards. So one of them is financial freedom. Another is like fitness and health and just general wellness and happiness. So we want to be able to be an inspiration for other moms to live the life they want to live. Because I know too many of the ones that I grew up around, just sacrifice their life, to work the nine to five and for their kids. And it's like you can have it too. Like you can have your cake and eat it too in the sense that you can live the life that you want. So we created it as a come along with me. I share different stories and strategies and tips and just milestones in our life as we're learning different things through business ownership. But as a mom, I just want it to be really inspiring and helpful. And all the things. Yes. How long have you been doing that for now works? So not a long time. Yeah. And it's great. It all really heavy. I started off with a three time a week podcast schedule, and we're just now dropping down to once a week because it's a lot of demand. Yeah, as you know. Yes. Do you and you record like you visually record you a lot of things as well for Instagram I've seen. So that's another sort of element to it as well. Yeah, we set up the camera and the microphone, and I put it on YouTube, the different podcast platforms and then we use it for Instagram and Tiktok and things like that. I'm trying to make sure that it's more curated for the different platforms. I just today I recorded a whole bunch of videos for YouTube in particular so that it's because you know every platform is specific to their own. I want to say like audience and the way that that people interpret the information. So yeah, I'm trying to be more intentional about that too. Yeah, cuz that's it, isn't it? It's like the way people consume things on different platforms. You is very different. I actually thought it was quite funny. A comedian made a made a reel about people coming in for like a it was like an audition. And they were saying they were presenting the way they talk and they're like, right you go to YouTube and the next one coming up are your for Tik Tok. Like, it was quite funny the way it happened, but they are very different, aren't they? Yeah, like, I've been watching a lot of different content creators obviously. And like seeing the way that they put things out into the world. And it's like, third priority. So some people prioritize YouTube and some people prioritize their blogs or Tik Tok or Instagram. And I'm feeling like YouTube is actually like a good place for me. So it's like helping me to be more intentional about where I put my time and like my focus. So it's like, YouTube is growing the quickest. So it's like, oh, I need to put more of my effort there. As opposed to Instagram that's really slow. So it's like really interesting to think about that too, yeah. So you've mentioned your kids a couple of times being a mom, can you share a little bit about your children? Yeah, I've got two little girls. My oldest is two and a half. And my youngest is going to be one next week or the week after the seventh. So it's been fine with them. I had my second when I just started my business, we had a wedding do a contract. It was supposed to be two days after my due date. And I ended up like wheeling the heck out of that girl coming sooner to keep 13 days early. And tell because it's like you booked a wedding two days after your due date. And it's like, I had faith that God was gonna let me fulfill the event. He wouldn't let me book it if I couldn't do it. Oh, did say you had a 13 days early. So that means you were up and about doing this waiting? Oh, my gosh, how did that go? It worked perfectly. It was fairly small. So I had like backup plans in place, like just in case I was in the hospital or something. But it worked out? Well. I'm glad that it wasn't any bigger than it was because you know, postpartum is difficult. And fulfilling. And event after that was not not exactly fun. But it wasn't bad either. Working up to that point was difficult. I worked until 39 weeks like doing weddings and freelancing with other florists and there was one venue in particular that I was going into and big ol belly in front of me. And the chairs were like this close together. And I can't squeeze through them. It was respond. Did so it was always Daisy having fun. Doing it. Yeah. Trying to carry stuff and they don't want you to carry anything because you're nine months pregnant. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Ah, hey, good. But obviously, you've got your support. If your husband in the business site, you're able to sort of be be flexible with things like that. He's such a tremendous help but everything. Lately I've been trying to teach him designing so he's able to actually jump in if I need him helping processing all over flowers to get them prepped to design. helping deliver. Yeah, they help in every way. And like not just that but also like with the kids being able to watch them when I have to go out or having some other family or friends or babysitters helped. Hmm, yeah, that's definitely the supports a massive thing, isn't it? Having people around you? Yeah, makes it really tricky. If you don't have that doesn't that I've spoken to quite a few people on the show that are just like away from their family for whatever reason, and you sort of got to create create your family then I suppose for one of a better word to find the people. Yeah. So yeah, I'm really fortunate. I still live in the town that I was born in and my sister lives around the corner. My mum lives up the road and it's like, I've got him here. If I need him. It's really, really lucky. You need it, you really can't do it without the support system. That's for sure. In terms of then sort of the juggling that goes on, how do you sort of manage? Like your children are still quite young? How do you sort of? Is it a lot of help from others to make it happen? Or how do you sort of juggle everything? Question. So during the week, they're in daycare, I can't live without daycare, it's like, every day, like, Thank goodness for it. And then a lot of late nights. So we try to prioritize and maximize or our family time that we do have. So from five to eight, we have our family time we do dinner, we do baps some quality, like book times, stuff like that, and then we put them down for bed. And then it's usually like eight to 11 is crunch time for whatever we need to make happen. So whether that's designing for an event, or working on a computer, or meetings, stuff like that. Yeah, cuz that's thing you've actually got to meet with your clients, I suppose. Do you do a lot of that? It does that work in the day or you do meet people have an evening as well. Usually, it's in the evening, because most of the people work that we're working with. So they don't typically get out of work or have the time to that they're both home until seven, you know, somewhere in there. So I'll you do accommodate the late night meetings. I prefer when they happen during the day and the girls are at school. But yeah, I'll make it happen for them. Yeah. Oh, that's good. So I want to go back to when when you first had had your first daughter, did you sort of find did you have sort of an identity shift of how you saw yourself, and how that sort of changed when you became a mom, I had a really bad postpartum depression with my first. And I actually want to call it like a disassociation, because I was not attached to her. Going through my first, like, postpartum experience, I had a really traumatic delivery with her. And after I got really fit, like in the gym, like I prioritize that, and I really went through a time that I wasn't connected to her. So I have a different experience with her than I do with my second one. So it's like hard to say like in that sense, but throughout, I want to say like the first six months of our life together, I became more attached to her. And obviously, we have a really close relationship now. But as a mom, it was interesting, because I felt unattached, like, I still felt like myself. So I can't really say I felt like I had gone through this metamorphosis of like, shifts and personality change. But with my second and getting pregnant with my second, I really felt it. Hmm. So the way that you sort of, I guess, I had postnatal depression with both my kids. So I can definitely relate to what you're saying. And I guess that's the thing, it does make it hard to sort of talk about that identity. Because you feel so different anyway, like, because you're experiencing these mental health issues. And I guess, maybe going to your second daughter, how did you sort of when you had your second daughter, did you experience the same sort of postnatal depression or was everything different that time it was really different the second time, and I kind of associated more with starting my business like I felt the build. So it was a different kind of feeling like with my first I was still working as a full time mom and working full time. So I didn't feel like I had the same flexibility I didn't work my second I was able to snuggle up with her. And I was working on my computer and breastfeeding her at the same time. So I was still able to have like that skin to skin contact and everything up until she went to daycare when she was like five months old. Whereas with my first like immediately from the get go, she was in daycare with my mom with anybody that could watch her I was working full time. So I guess I didn't have the same kind of connecting experience with her. And also that affected our relationship and the way that my mental health was and everything else. Yeah, it's interesting, like, oh, yeah, no, thank you for sharing that because it's interesting. I've spoken to some mums who had postnatal depression first or second, or both, or like it's just there doesn't seem to be any consistency to it. Like when I had mine quite bad with my fist. So then the doctors were like, sort of put like, a red flag to me, but they had on all my files, you know, watch out for this one sort of thing, you know, which was good because when it did happen, you know, the ball moves really quickly and all the care that I needed came really quickly. But then yeah, I've spoken to some people who had it with their first didn't have on their second or didn't have with their first head it was like they doesn't seem to be any, you know, rhyme or reason like it. And I sort of had talked to my I talked myself into the fact like, there's seven years between my kids. And I thought, you know, I'm seven years older, I'm more mature, I've worked in childcare. Now I know, physically how to look after a child. And I kept thinking, I'm gonna be fine. This isn't gonna happen, you know, but then actually happened worse the second time and the first time. So it's like, so bizarre. It really is. And it's like, I went through so many mental changes, just evolving as a person and a business owner and everything that I associated with that, but maybe it could just be a different experience, just hormonal wise, like you're saying, like seven years older, and it's hard to say exactly why it happens the way that it does. Oh, my gosh, it is It is bizarre. Like it's just odd. And I wish it didn't happen to any of us. But it's just one of those weird things. And I feel like I've never quite been the same sense. I don't know. Now that I'm getting older, my hormones are changing more. I don't know. I mean, I still feel like me, but I just feel like I haven't quite gotten back to how it was before. I don't know. It's really weird, but never go back, either. Like, you've got so many new experiences now, like having been through childbirth twice, and the postpartum experience twice and everything in between. You'll never go back. Which I guess is a good thing. Yeah. It's a strange thing isn't that happens to us? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was named. One of the big topics I like to talk about with my moms is this concept of mom guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because I have spoken to moms who didn't even know what it was and had to google it. And I reckon that's awesome. That's how we should all be. But unfortunately, most of us, what's your sort of take on that whole topic? Oh, I feel guilty about everything that I do. I'm guilty. If I'm not being productive, I'm guilty. If I'm not spending enough time with them. I'm guilty. If I am not sleeping enough, I'm guilty. If I'm not eating right, I'm guilty of I'm prioritizing the wrong things. I'm just a big ball of guilt in every way, shape and form. So I'm curious to hear like what you have to say about it, and how you try to overcome it. Like with me, I just remind myself of what I'm working toward, and get myself grace as best as I can. Hmm. Yeah, I think that acceptance is a really big thing. And that's what I'm finding. It's interesting, the people that I've spoken to one in particular comes to mind that that did not even know what it was, which was brilliant. I think it was something to do with, she was basically in this little bubble, where she hadn't been around a lot of people with children, and wasn't sort of all over social media, looking at all things to do with children. And I think a lot of it comes what will in certainly in my experience of people I've spoken to, I'm not saying this is right for everybody, but the expectations that we feel from the outside world to behave a certain way or to do a certain thing or to not do a certain thing. And then that pressure that comes on us, is what sort of manifests neck yoke, because I don't know, there's just so many outside, outside forces with all this conflicting information, like I actually saw a really funny reel the other day about was like a new mom. And she was saying, I can't even think what they were. But it was things like don't hold your baby too much. But make sure you have a lot of skin to skin contact. But don't feed them too much. But make sure that they get enough food, like it was just this constant back and forth and the mums like what am I supposed to do? And I think you're right, that that sort of giving yourself grace and acceptance and in the moment feeling like I'm doing all that I can right now. And then try not to beat yourself up about later, which is so easier said than done, but it's just a horrible thing. And I wish it didn't exist. I wish no one had to go through it, too. I think you're right about the Instagram and like the social media aspect of it too. Because we have this new way to compare ourselves to like what other people look like they're doing as opposed to what we should be doing or comparing what they're what they have done. going on with their kids, because we don't know, we only see the highlight reel on Instagram. So it's like somebody else might look like they're in the gym all the time and spending time with their kids and having the best of everything. They probably have a nanny or somebody living in the house that's able to take care of the kids. Like you're not seeing it all. Yeah, that's so the best. You have to just give yourself grace, knowing what you're living through and your situation and the way that you're dealing with things when it's like you can do that season. We can just do that and not, and the judgment that I was talking to a mom the other day, about that mums and women were really, only if we're really good at what we're really bad at. I can't work out the way to say it, but we judge each other a lot. Like we're like the number one worst judges of each other. We need to know if we could just stop there. Yeah. But I think a lot of that also might come from guilt too, is that, you know, if you see someone doing something and you think, Oh, bloody hell, and then you think, wow, I should be doing that. You know, it's all that that internalized stuff. Again, you are you're judging them because you're not doing it or whatever it is. I'm really bad at that. I'll see something that looks like I should be doing it. And I get bad that they're doing and I'm not, or feeling like I should be further along in my journey. And it's like I just started so I can't get mad at it. Yeah, yeah. But I think you're right about this, this Instagram and the socials. It's like, people will only show you what they want you to say they're not going to show you all the bad stuff that's happened that day, or the how hard it was to get your kid to eat breakfast and then get them in the car to go wherever it like. Yes. But I feel like they're having. Yeah, yeah. It's, but yeah, I feel like people are getting better at sharing things. And I'm trying to change the people that I follow. So that the people that resonate with me more, not the people that I feel challenged by I suppose, if that makes sense. Yeah, surrounding yourself with positive, the positive stuff. I've been getting better at that, too. I've been restricting a lot of accounts that so I'm not like unfriending them or unfollowing them, but I'm not seeing their stuff purposefully. Cuz it either makes me mad or makes me feel guilty or something negative that I shouldn't be feeling. And it's just preventing me from working the way that I should be. Hmm, that's a really good point. And actually, that that point has come up, I reckon in the last two or three podcast chats that I've had that about just, you know, surrounding yourself with the people that make you feel good. Like, yeah, like, like, you know, in real life we do. So why not do it? You know, in a socialist, yeah, it's funny, because I find that even, I have to restrict, like, some friends and family because like, I'll see them and like, hold myself to like a new level of criticism, or guilts. Or, however I'm interpreting it, and then like, I can't be looking at this all the time, just because it makes me feel like I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing, or it's bad or something. Yeah, those things that trigger Yeah, it's like, you know, remove them. And that's true, even if it is family, you know, or friends, it's, we're still allowed to sort of set the boundaries and say, you know, I don't need to consume this, because it's going to affect me in a certain way. I think that's really powerful. Because I feel like in the past, we sort of have felt like, because their family, we've got to accept just everything that they do to us their behaviors. I feel like people are starting to sort of go, oh, actually, that's not okay. Even though, you know, you're my sister, or you're my mom or whatever. That That doesn't work. For me. That's a pretty powerful thing, isn't it? Very, very powerful. And to have the emotional intelligence to say, You know what, this is a little toxic or a little triggering for me. So I'm just going to remove myself from the situation and go from there. Yeah, that's really good. I think. Yeah. I don't know. Certainly the people I'm following. It's like, you know, that that emotional intelligence that and feeling like you have permission to do things? Like I don't know, you've always sort of feel like, is it okay for me to say to such and such that I don't want to do that, you know, that. That people pleasing sort of got to say yes to everything. I feel like yeah, people that I follow. I do follow a lot of psychologists to actually that's where this is going rather, you know, you are allowed to say that you don't have to please everybody. Thank you say that with like, yes to everything because I'm really bad people pleaser, at least I'm getting better at it. And for the holidays all the time, everybody would want us over their house. So We'd be trying to go to four or five different houses in the course of Christmas. And it's like that's not enjoyable like to just go from house to house. Yeah. So it's like, either had them on different days, or like, Come to us, because now we have kids, and then she's difficult to go from, you know, breakfast to late breakfast to brunch, to lunch to dinner, an early dinner, late dinners next. Bedtime is somewhere in the middle. Yeah, that's the thing. And you like the age of your girl. So probably still napping is like, how do you even, you know, fit that in? Yeah, but that's the thing too, I think. Yeah, for years are a family like, I'm lucky because everyone's in the town. And we all just gather at one point. But yeah, I've heard lots of stories of people of these, because we've got lots of little towns all around our big town, like little sort of out in the countryside. And people would be going from here to there to their to their similar to your story. Now, just think, God, that wouldn't be a very nice day, you know, it wouldn't be a very enjoyable day. And they'd say things like, you know, the kids get their presents, but then they can't play with them, because they've got to rush off to the next place. And you think it sort of takes all of that? What it's supposed to be about it takes all of that away. And you're right, why can't do it on another day, like, you know, make it a boxing? Or do you have Boxing Day over there to call it that? You know, yeah, we have like the day after Christmas is like a relaxing day, you're supposed to we, most times there's a cricket match on. It's like this tradition, the Boxing Day test match. So everyone like, relaxes in front of the telly and watches the cricket and has a drink because it's summer here. So it's all very, you know, laid back. So that's thing why not doing on the next day, like, you know, why does that have to be this pressure just for this one? Day? Yeah, that's like the thing, like, both my husband and I, like both of our parents were divorced. So it's like, we were having like, four just with them. And then it was the extended family and, you know, siblings wanting to get together in the morning to open gifts and then do dinner later. It's like, we're seeing you already, like agree don't need to do it twice. You know? Yeah. So if anyone's listening to this, if this is triggering for you, this might really to say actually, no, I want to do it this way. Or, you know, have a chat here from this time to that time, and you're welcome to stop by. Yeah, that's a great way of saying it. Yeah. And it's not, it's not like you're saying, we don't want to see you like it's not a bad. You know, it's like just to shuffle things to make it work. And I mean, other people probably feeling the same way too, you know? So by starting the conversation, you might be taking the pressure off someone else to go Oh, thank God, I've been wanting to say this, you know? Yes, 100%. That's really cool. I love it that conversation with. Growing up as a kid, did you, I mean, a lot of the moms I speak to were of the same sort of age roughly. I have had a couple of grandmas on. And that's been really interesting, too. But the way that the way that we were parented has changed a lot. I feel like I mean, culturally in Australia, certainly. And I'm sort of guessing similarly, in the US. What sort of role modeling did you have for being a mum, and the way that you've decided to parent your children? Interesting? Um, I? Oh, tough question. My mom worked all the time. So I can't really say that she was like, super involved. Like when she was really like, when we were young, I guess she was a stay at home mom for a while. But when my parents and I were in a rough relationship, so she worked pretty much around the clock. And we were with my grandparents most of the time. So essentially, my grandmother raised me. I guess, as far as like parenting styles, I have a lot of the same kind of styles that they do. Some things have evolved. Like, we don't force them to eat everything on their plate, like I was forced to, because I'm like, she's a toddler and she's not hungry. She'll eat when she's hungry. So she snaps and that's the way that she eats and the pediatrician have told us the same thing like to just let her you know, she's gonna go through phases. My mom was a big fast food mom, like I don't do that. Stuff like that. Yeah, I feel like we're sort of listening to our children a bit more like, like that example of, you know, the parents saying you have to eat this. And it's like, I remember as a kid, just shoveling the ends of my tea into my mouth and just feeling like seek just so full of food. It's like, we've sort of got to the point where we Going well, actually, I think children are capable of deciding when they're full, you know, obviously you want them to try and, you know, eat more than one bead of toast or whatever, you know, you want them to, to try encourage them. But, you know, I think this that sort of, for me, at least, I don't know if it did, or it didn't, but might have been something to do with the relationship that I now have with food, that I've got to eat everything, you know, we don't know what Yes, what little seeds are being planted in little people's brains when we're doing these behaviors, and we're putting our, our judgment now behaviors onto them. 100% I'm on a similar note, like, trying to, I've learned that my mom wasn't exactly like a well rounded eater, she ate a lot of SP foods, a lot of the same things. So I'm finding like, as a mom, myself, that my kids eat everything that I eat. So if I'm showing them that I'm eating broccoli, and like home cooked meals, they're gonna want to eat them, too. So if I'm not giving them those options, they're not going to eat them. And they're not encouraged to because if I'm drinking soda, my daughter wants to drink soda. If I'm eating a nice polite with turkey bacon, she's gonna want to eat that too. So it's just a matter of introducing them to the right things and setting a good example. Hmm. And that's, that's really good point. Because that's thing if they don't see things they're not, they're not even, you know, gonna, they're not gonna choose one day go, Oh, I'm just gonna eat some broccoli just for no reason. You know, it's, it's got to be a part of. Yeah, exactly. And you were talking earlier about, like, you know, eating well, and fitness. Is that something that you're you guys are conscious of. So that's really great that you're sort of encouraging that right from, you know, the beginning of their lives. Yeah, really trying. With the business and everything. It's honestly taken a bit of a back burn. But we've been recommitting ourselves. And it's really important to show them that this is a priority for us if it is for them to. Absolutely, yeah, that's so that's so important. And I think like, exercise just being a part of life, like you can just go for a walk anytime. And that's, you know, that it's not some big deal that can I just, it's just a normal part of life, that it just is what you do, you know, maybe not every day, depending how your day is going. But it's just there all the time. That makes sense. Yeah, that you don't have to make it a special. Like, you don't have to get up and go to the gym at 530 Every morning, like you could squeeze it in with a bike ride or make it fun, and a family activity or different ways to go. Do you feel like it's important to you, and I'm gonna say this in air quotes again, to be more than just a mum, because we're never just a mum, that Yeah, is that that's important to you to maintain who you are outside of your mothering role. Very important. Um, I never want to be just anybody. I want to be myself. And I, you know that I'm really ambitious. So I've got a lot of goals. So I can't imagine like just being a mom, I have to be me and fulfilling and successful. And I just have a lot of these deep rooted things that I need to fulfill myself. Where do you think that drive comes from? Is that was there anyone in your life that sort of role model that or is that just, that's just you. It's just me, it's many of you ask, like my mom or my grandma, they'll tell you that I have this number one syndrome that I have to be number one in everything. And it's funny because as a kid, it was true, I needed to be first in line, I needed to be the top of the attendance roster, I needed to be like, number one on the honor roll like all of those things. And I guess it still rings true, but in different ways like it's fueling to want to be and accomplish all of these things. So it's like I have a bucket list of stuff that I want to do before I die and set a good example for my kids and be this person. Hmm. Yeah. Can you share some of the other things that are on your bucket list? If that's appropriate? I haven't asked you this before. You Yeah, sure. Well, writing a book is obviously on the top of the list. I have places that I want to travel. I want to have some speaking opportunities, like I want to get on a TEDx stage or something fun like that, um, surround myself but some people that I consider like, I don't know if you have like bucket list people that you want to like have conversations with Yeah, couple things. Yeah, people that I keep annoying with emails to come on my podcast. And I never hear back from you, we'll keep trying. And like, that's the thing like this has got this experience, doing this sort of stuff has got me really good at just being rejected and not worrying about any more like to just go, no, oh, that's fine. Who's next on my list? You know, and not getting hung up about stuff. It's been a really good teaching experience for me to learn this stuff, you know? Well, it's like it boils down to, it's always going to be no, if you don't ask, yes, yes. Or no, like somebody might have an opening in the calendar, or they might actually be available that weekend. They, you know, whatever the situation is, like, the reason that they're saying no, probably has nothing to do with you. You know, it's probably that they have their kids baseball game that they actually are able to attend this weekend. So they want to go. And that's, I feel like that if you don't ask you don't know. And that, yeah, I've asked some awesome people that have come on, and I thought they would never come on, but it's like, Thank God ask because, you know, just, yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Like? And that's the thing, too, like, I think we just we never know what's going on in other people's lives, like in any in anything, you know, and I think we sometimes can be really quick to judge a person's reaction and put it back onto ourselves. Where it's probably not about us at all, like you said, it's, it's something that in their lives or whatever. Yeah, like, as we know, like all of our lives, we're bound to rob ourselves. Like, I like to think of like Jenna Kutcher, a lot. I always hear that she's just says no to everything. And it's like, it has nothing to do with anybody else. It's just that she has like three priorities. And those are the priorities. So if it's not one of those three things, it's going to be no. And I feel that way about like, when I'm even asked to, let's say, like, over a friend's house or something. If it's, if I'm not feeling up to if my kids are not feeling good, like whatever it is, it's like it's gonna be no, if it doesn't feel any of those things. Hmm, yeah. And there's nothing wrong with saying that like, again, this boundary setting, looking after ourselves, not just saying yes, because we feel we feel bad if we say no. Yeah, well, then you feel guilty or resentful, or saying yes, if you didn't say no. And that's the worst is like saying yes. And not meaning it or wishing that you said no, or being mad that somebody isn't giving you something? Because you said yes. Because you said yes. You know, exactly. Yeah. It's like watching there, isn't there? Yeah, I have a good example to go along with that. One of my girlfriends is getting married. And I told her that I would do her wedding flowers. And I wished that I didn't say, and I'm feeling resentful now. Because it's like, I would rather not commit the time and my own finances to do it. And it's like a really generous gift. And I was like, Is this really like, Why did I say yes, and I'm going back and forth with it. And it's like, I need to just commit myself and I am going to commit myself because I agreed to it. But that's like a really good example of something that you should think, before you say yes. And try not to be resentful of the fact that you did. Because that's the thing isn't like, things can seem really good at the time. And then when you think about it, and you go, oh, like I've done that with singing gigs. And I've said yes to things because I thought, oh, yeah, that'll be fun. And then I thought, ah, but I have to rehearse and I have to learn these songs. And I'm, like, I'm, in my mind. I'm thinking of the gig. I'm thinking, Oh, that'd be awesome. But then I step back and go, Ah, crap, all this stuff that needs to happen to do that. And I think, ah, like, it's not just the thing. Yeah, everything else to go with it. So it's like, my friend's wedding is like Thanksgiving weekend, it's, so it's gonna be a pain in the neck to get flowers. And for her, it's gonna be I have another wedding the next day. So it's like, I'm gonna be adding more work to my load. And it's like, all these other things that make it a lot more difficult than just doing the thing. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, I've gotten I think, I don't know if this is a bad thing to say. But the COVID Everything that happened with COVID actually gave me a time to think about like saying no more like I really enjoyed not rushing out because everything got canceled, all the gigs got canceled, which to start with was quite bad. And then I sort of went actually I'm enjoying not going out all the time now and I'm glad the pressures off because now I don't have to do this. And I know that obviously I'm not dismissing COVID at all like it's very bad a lot of people have have suffered because of it and economies and everything. But one good thing came out of it is it made me start saying no to things because I remembered how good it felt not doing things. Yes, I agree with that. And I agree wholeheartedly with that conversation. cuz, yes, COVID was awful for many people. But there were so many good things that also came out of it like my business, like, as a floral designer took off because of COVID. Because all of the other floors were booked. And there were so many delays so that I was able to actually do 50 Weddings last year and was my first year of business. So it's like, that shouldn't have been possible. But it was because of COVID. And, like you said, like enjoying the actual time, but you had to yourself because of it, we had that same kind of situation, like in 2020, that we were able to just enjoy ourselves and our little family. I actually enjoyed being not having visitors in the hospital when I gave birth, because I had two COVID babies. So it was like I enjoyed being able to actually just be the three of us and not worry about everyone in their brother coming in while I'm breastfeeding and stuff like that. Yeah, I think there was a good stuff. Yeah, that's a really good point, isn't it? Because I think that can that's another whole issue about people not having boundaries, when people have babies that it's like, you just assume, Oh, you've had a baby, great, we'll go see them. And, you know, a lot of people are now saying, we'll let you know, you know, even waiting till they get home and even you know, settling in waiting till breastfeeding is established or, you know, any challenges. I've got an even, like, over here, not so much now. But a few years ago, there was a big thing with whooping cough. So people were saying until you're vaccinated, we don't want you to come to see the baby. So yeah, and I think people just getting more respectful of other people's, you know, wishes, just because it's always been done a certain way doesn't mean that that's, you know, how we should keep doing things. Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. Having the boundaries, and not holding it to like, the expectation that that's how things have to go, you can make it, you can make those decisions and say that this is the new way of doing things. And then actually like it better having the babies like during COVID and saying no, or at least like in the postpartum experience. I can't imagine, like, this is something that I had establishes boundaries, like if you want to come over, you have to bring dinner. Love that, that people are like, can I come over visit? Like, you know, what are you bringing for dinner? Like, are you gonna come over and do some laundry for me? Because I don't want to entertain you. Yes, that is awesome. Like, literally, what are you bringing with you? What are you going to do while you're here, you're just going to sit on your ass and hold my baby while I sit there and think of all these things I've got to do. Or I could be asleep right now. You know. I love that. So we have a digital production company that we just started. And it came to be because of all of the stuff that I've been doing with the YouTube and the podcast and all the social media management and all of that stuff because I had to put together a team to do it. I'm sure you have one too, with editing and whatnot. So I was like, Oh, my goodness, it's a game changer. I've got time, right, you know, it's this is, yeah, I've got time. I can do it. I did not time. So I was like I cannot be sitting here on my computer doing all this. So I hired a team to help me do it. And I realized I'm like, this is a need that I can fill and I need to at least monetize what I'm doing. Because at this point, I was just shelling money out trying to get everything edited and monitor my podcasts and just everything. Social media service, like let me share my team with people to see well that's where that came to be. Yep. So primarily, we help people with podcast editing and production, YouTube Editing and the SEO that goes with it, like the keywords and the titles and the thumbnails and the backlinks and all those fun things that I didn't even know was a thing until I started doing it. Yeah. And social media management. Yeah, right. So where can people find find you online with that if people want a Fievel interested in that. So it's mama media, ma ma M Ed ia.org. And that's where you could find us for those services. was cool. I'll put a link to that in the show notes if anyone wants to check that out. Yeah, it's interesting, like when you say, like, I do it myself because I can and because I really, I had all the equipment here from my singing, so I didn't have to purchase anything and got my mixer, I've got my mic and everything, and I can do all my editing myself. And I actually really love doing it. Like, that's part one of the parts that I actually I really look forward to doing because I love fiddling around doing things, you know, that's just my thing. But there'd be a lot of people that don't love that and don't have the time and don't have the equipment to do it. So I think that's a really good service and good on you for for like, being able to like you've got that team you can share with other people. It's already there. And you can go right, I mean, you can do this for other people. Yeah. Yeah. And like I said, like, it came, like I was just showing money out the door. And I'm like, I can't keep doing this. Like I need to be able to bring something in here. Somehow. I was like, How can I monetize this. And I was like that, like, you've got a perfect little formula right here, like just put it out there. And I love the name T that's a really cool name. Thank you. Just like to share with everybody that listens, that you can do whatever you want in this life, and you don't have to be defined because you're a mom or by that title, you can seriously have your cake and eat it too. And what I mean by that is you can create the businesses that you want, you can create the financial freedom, that financial security that you want, you can do the hobbies that bring you joy, you can create anything that you want in this life. So don't let being a mom define you by that. I grew up with so many people that did and they are not happy, like at the end of the day. And it just is a shame because they're meant for more than that. Hmm, yeah, that's a really, really well said, Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? We just because we have a child doesn't mean that our whole rest of our life has to stop existing. Yeah, like, there's a trend going around right now. That's mom before she was mom. And it's like, all the photos of her having fun. And then like, as a mom, it's just she's holding the kids and putting them down for bed. And it's like, you can do all those fun things with them. Like, it doesn't have to be an end to your life. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It doesn't stop. And I think that's the thing like our, my parents generation, that there was very much, it was very much of us in them. Like, obviously, we're crazy family. But, you know, parents would do so much stuff without the kids. Whereas now I feel like we're involving our kids in so much more other parts of our lives that I wasn't involved in with my parents. So that's really good change, I think. Yeah, I think it's really positive and important and impactful for them to to be part of it. You know, if I were watching my mom, like, do the things that she wanted to do, I think you'd one like have like a newfound respect for them, because you're seeing them doing what they love and happy and joyful. And it's also like setting an example for you that you can do it too, huh? Absolutely. Yeah. It's great. That's a lovely note to end on. Thank you. It's been such a joy chatting with you. Thank you so much for giving me your time today. It's not time over there, isn't it? What time is it? There? They go. It's quarter past 10 In the morning, over here. So it's really a lovely start to my day. Thank you and all the best with everything. I'm sure you're gonna keep keep ticking things off that bucket list and keep achieving things because you Yeah, very motivated, very driven. And it's it's lovely to chat with you. Thank you, Alison. It's been so fun. I hope that everybody enjoyed our chat too. If anybody wants to come over and listen to more than we've got going on come to the Mickey money moves show. I'd love to have Allison on. And you can find me on Instagram at list dot Morton. Awesome. And yes, I'll put all the links so everyone can just click away and find you and that would be awesome. Thank you again. It's been great. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor and she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes Your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage dotnet forward slash podcast

5 Stella Anning Australian guitarist 5 Article # 28 July 2023 I am a guitarist. I perform in many different groups like the Jazzlab Orchestra, John Flanagan Band, Lisa Baird’s Bitches Brew and ISEULA, but I also have my own trio – the Stella Anning Trio or STAT. STAT is a guitar, bass and drums trio, so all instrumental (or at least my first EP was all instrumental…) compositions written by myself. As a child I was always drawn to creative things – I loved fashion and I drew my designs in a sketch book. I took acting classes and singing lessons as well as picking up the guitar. I remember writing pop songs in primary school, before I had any musical training. I always imagined myself being a performer in some way. In high school, I realised the school I was at had a minimal music program, so I asked to move to a musical school and my guitar teacher suggested Blackburn High. I embraced the music program – I was involved in all the ensembles, I joined a ska band (not my choice of genre but that’s what the boys wanted to do and I wanted to play in a band that wasn’t a school ensemble!), I practiced, I took every music subject possible. I loved how social it was but at the same time you were creating and working on your artistic practice. I went on to do my Bachelor of Music Performance in Jazz at Monash University. I have never once questioned if I should do something else – music would and will always be in my life. But I have questioned my place in the scene, most especially being a female musician. And I have also questioned how I could make money! My family taught me the importance of financial stability, which I struggled with when I was a young adult trying to navigate life as a musician. I ended up taking a job on a cruise ship as a guitarist for a stint, and on returning to Melbourne, with little employment, I found myself looking for ‘jobs’, which as a jazz guitarist, is a small pool of jobs, most of which don’t include performing. I stumbled across a gig I had not heard of and did an audition… I found myself in the Australian Army Band! Intermittently, I did over a decade in the Army Band. The job is basically like a full-time corporate band – we played top 40 covers at various events and occasionally we did marching band, which I would pick up the snare drum or cymbals for. After university, I had limited myself into a jazz box, but in that scene, I struggled to find a strong sense of community - after a few negative situations with men at uni, I was struggling to engage with the scene. Once I joined the Army Band, I met people from all across the country and like them or not, I had to work with them. I grew as a woman and as a musician. "In the first year of my son’s life, it was really difficult to leave him – I felt so much mum guilt. But I knew that engaging in the music industry and even just catching up with friends, would ultimately make me a better mother. " It wasn’t until 2020 that I finally decided I wanted to quit work and be a fulltime musician, as I was finding myself turning down great music opportunities because of work. But of course, that quickly haltered. By April 2020 we were working from home and I realised I was pregnant. We have one child; our son is 2 years old. We decided before having kids that we would either have one or none, and we are sticking to that. It just felt too overwhelming to have more than one. Being a musician, with the nightlife and the constant hustle, it didn’t seem that appealing to have kids at all! So, our little family is now complete! You have to find new ways to approach life once you have kids – time is no longer your own. You don’t just ‘go to work’, you have to manage your time to make sure you still allow time for your artistic practice. It is so easy to feel guilty when I ask my partner to look after our son while I go practice – it can feel selfish, but if I don’t do it, then I’m never progressing as an artist. Not only that, I’ll feel incomplete. It’s not just my work, it’s the thing that ignites my soul. After the birth of my son, I had a part-time job, which I really didn’t enjoy, but we had just had a pandemic so it was not the right time to throw away work. I have just quit that job and am currently working on music projects – grant writing, composing for different ensembles and recording. I’m not sure how long I will be able to continue like this, but it’s been really fulfilling. Seeing myself through the eyes of my son, I would not want him to see me working in a job that I don’t like, which made it that much easier to be authentic to myself. Now I feel a bigger urgency to do what I love and do it to the best of my ability. I have been lucky enough to have a music room in our house, however it’s become really difficult with a child – whenever he hears me practice, he wants to come in. I’m sure it’ll improve the older he gets, but in hindsight, it would have been great to have an artistic space that is not in the home, because it’s hard to switch off ‘mum’ when you are practicing and you can hear your kid in the next room! I found out I was pregnant in April 2020, the start of lockdowns in Melbourne. It was a strange time for everyone and everyone was trying to maintain connection with people online. Because of this, a musician friend of mine who as it turned out was also pregnant, started an online mothers’ group for any other musicians we knew that were also pregnant. This group still exists today, although very intermittent now, but it was a huge support through Covid and the unknowns of pregnancy, birth and postnatal. Once we had all become mothers, the conversations changed from preparing for child birth, to breast feeding issues, baby photos, stories and tips but also how to navigate gigs as a breastfeeding person, tips on what breast pump to use, I even at one stage got given some breast milk from one of the mothers in the group, as she knew I was struggling to make enough milk to store for when I’d have weekends away with gigs! The group was and is a huge support that has helped me navigate being a musician mother, which my local mothers group could not provide. My husband has been a huge support. I generally do 1-3 gigs per week and also might have an evening or weekend rehearsal. My husband has a fulltime job, so I look after our son a few weekdays, but I feel like he sees our son just as much because they have a lot of daddy-son time when I am away in the evenings. I perform in a few groups with other new parents and I can see that not everyone’s partners are as tolerant as mine is. I hate to use the word tolerance but also, it seems like there is some tolerance level required to date a musician! I believe your artform is always changing, but it has definitely changed since becoming a mother. I have had immense self-reflection since becoming a parent and have started song writing – writing lyrics and singing. I’ve always dabbled in song writing but as a guitarist, it hasn’t been my preference, choosing to compose instrumental tunes. I guess since becoming a mother and just being older and (hopefully!) wiser, I feel I have more to say and I’ve had a strong pull towards writing lyrics and singing my own tunes. I occasionally sing for corporate gigs and I do a lot of backing vocals for other artists, but this is a big step for me. I feel way more vulnerable now that I’m writing lyrics! Mum guilt is unavoidable. In the first year of my son’s life, it was really difficult to leave him – I felt so much mum guilt. But I knew that engaging in the music industry and even just catching up with friends, would ultimately make me a better mother. It really didn’t take me long to shake off mum guilt, I feel like it was quicker than others around me. I just felt like making myself happy doing the things I love, prioritising my own well-being, would make me be the best version of myself as a parent. "I believe your artform is always changing, but it has definitely changed since becoming a mother. I have had immense self-reflection since becoming a parent." As a young adult trying to navigate my place in the world, I questioned what kind of feminist I would be. Being quite naïve, I didn’t respect the work a mother does and I had no desire to be a mother, mostly because I felt it would take away from my freedom and personal goals. Once I was in my thirties, that started to change, but I still feel uncomfortable to label myself as a mother before anything else. I’m not quite sure why that is, because it definitely takes more of my energy, time, my physical body and my on-going self-discovery as I navigate how to approach every step of my child’s development and learning! I would say as a role model to my son, I want him to see that although he is the most important thing in my life in a lot of ways, being his mummy is one part of the human experience and people are much more complex than one title. Growing up, my family didn’t understand the life of a working musician and there was an expectation that if I was ‘successful’ as a musician, then I would have financial stability. Success as a musician does not always translate directly to monetary wealth. Their concerns influenced my decision to find more stable work at that time. Since then, I have tried to balance passion with also meeting my practical needs. I surround myself with lots of creatives that recognise the value of creative work and not solely measure it by financial metrics. Most of the time (not all of the time!) the more artistic and freer the music is, the less pay. For me, it’s about finding a balance of doing some improvised music that may be minimal pay, but also doing some corporate work or more mainstream gigs that might help balance it out. My mother very rarely worked full time. Most of our childhood she was the mother at home or she had a part-time job. Although I know my mum loved being a stay-at-home mother and looking after us, she also didn’t have much of a choice, especially when we were young. There weren’t many childcare options close to us. Mum also said that there was a lot of judgement from the other mothers around her, that you weren’t a good mum if you were to get a full-time job. We were privileged enough that my parents could live off one income, and so predominantly that was what they did. I am currently writing my next EP for my trio ‘STAT’ and also working on a collaborative album of duets with other musicians. The idea of this duet album is to give me the opportunity to reconnect with various people in the music scene – since having a baby, I have struggled to feel connected to the scene and I definitely don’t go see as many gigs as I would like, so this was a way for me to network and be creative at the same time! These projects are still in the initial stages and will most likely come out next year. For now, you can follow me on socials where I promote whatever gig is coming up at the time! Contact Stella Watch the music video I created whilst having a one year old! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lafiw-B4hgM&feature=youtu.be Buy the EP here https://stellaanningtrio.bandcamp.com/album/stat Follow me on socials https://www.facebook.com/StellaAnningTrio https://www.instagram.com/stellaanningguitar/ BACK

Edwina Masson Australian vocal loops artist S3 Ep88 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Edwina Masson is my guest this week, a musician and mum of one based on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia. Edwina was born in Brisbane and moved 5 states before she was 10 years old. She didn't have a lot of stability in her home location but her constant was the music that she listened to as a family, Paul Kelly, Led Zeppelin, The Who, Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. Edwina credits this time as the reason she gravitates towards music to cope with stress and emotions. She started composing music in year 5 on Garage Band, and began to develop a love for harmony. During high school she was music captain and sang, played clarinet and double bass. After high school she decided she was going to be a singer, much to the surprise of her family, and went on to study performing arts at university, and lectured also. Edwina describes her musical style as a vocal loops artist. She creates songs with many, many layers, using her voice as the instrument. and creating emotionally dense music which goes on a journey and often without lyrics. While Edwina was experiencing a traumatic pregnancy in 2020 and 2021 she began searching for music that would support her experiences, and couldn't find it. Edwina began to write music that she need to get though, initially only meant for her, but on realising that others could benefit from it in 2022 Edwina released the album Birth of A Mother. It's the music she wishes she had accessible to her at the time of being pregnant. Edwina has recently created the Live Loops Choir in the Noosa Hinterland, a non audition, any ability singing group to be able to create the music she loves in a live setting. If you are in the neighbourhood check it out, link below. This episode contains mentions of hyperemesis gravidarum, birth trauma, post natal depression, miscarriage and traumatic early childhood. Edwina - instagram / live loops choir / music Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Edwina throughout the episode When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. It is a pleasure to have you here from wherever you're listening around the world. My guest this week is Edwina Masson. a tweener is a musician and a mum of one based on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia. That duaner was born in Brisbane, and she moved around five states before she was 10 years old. It was these changes in location and schools that created the instability in her life. But the constant was the music that she listened to with our family. Musicians like Paul Kelly, Led Zeppelin, the WHO Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. Edwina credits this time as the reason she gravitates toward music to cope with stress and changes in emotions. She started composing music when she was in year five, using GarageBand and began to develop a love of harmony. During high school she was Music captain, and she sang play clarinet and double bass. After high school she decided she was going to be a singer, much to the surprise of her family. And she went on to study Performing Arts at uni and also became a lecturer at Duany described describes her current musical style as a vocal loops artist. She creates songs with many, many layers, sometimes up to 50, using her voice as the instrument and creating emotionally dense music, which goes on a journey and often without lyrics. While Edwina was experiencing a particularly traumatic pregnancy in 2020 and 2021, she began searching for music that would support her experiences, and she couldn't find it. So Edwina began to write music, the music that she needed to get through, initially only meant for herself, but on realizing that others could benefit from it too. In 2022, Edwina released the album, Birth of a mother, it's the music that she wishes she had accessible to her at the time of being pregnant. Dwayne has also recently created the live loops choir in the Noosa hinterland and non audition, any ability singing group to be able to perform the music she loves in a live setting. And if you're in the neighborhood, I encourage you to check it out. I've put the link in the show notes. Today's episode does get quite full on at times, just letting you know that it contains mentions of a traumatic pregnancy and birth and postnatal depression and also mentions of miscarriage. Throughout this episode, you'll hear snippets of a Dwayne his music, particularly from the album birth of a mother and I encourage you to check it out to again, the links in the show notes. It's just beautiful music and it just soothes your soul. No matter what stage you're in. Whether you are a new mother pregnant, or you've got kids that are 15 years old, it really speaks to all of us. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're gonna love this episode, and take care do doo doo doo doo doo doo doo Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Yeah, it's absolutely my pleasure. It's lovely to put a face to the sounds like I mean, I've seen you on Instagram, obviously, but to speak to you, after listening to, to your incredible music. It's really, really lovely to meet you. Oh, that's so that's so sweet. I get that. You know what, I actually get that more often than you think. Because other people listen to my music. And I don't actually, it's really interesting as a musician, like you put music out and you kind of think that, like, no one's listening to it. And then you just like, it's just for me. And then somebody's like, you're the person and I'm like, Yeah, my music sounds so deep. And then you meet me and you're like, you're a dork. Edwina. Yeah. I love it. That's awesome. Yes. So we're about to you at the moment. Where are you? What in the world are we has a really good question. We are currently on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland in Australia. And we've been here I think for about seven months now. Seven months we've been living here and it's just so beautiful. Yeah, beautiful. I am, we used to come up for a couple of years in a row, we came up to Caloundra for a family holidays. And I just loved it up there. I just loved it. We loved it so much. You went to exactly the same place two years in a row. We just loved it so much. It's like why do we need to go anywhere else? If it ain't broke? Don't fix it. We're in like the kind of like the Noosa hinterland. Oh, yeah. And it's just where it's so beautiful. It's like I spent years just like dreaming about living in like a rainforest. And we do now and it's just, oh, I look out my window every day. And I feel so lucky. So happy to be here yet. Do you have all those? I don't know what sort of birds they are. But I've never heard them because I'm from that Gambia right down south. And there's these birds like they made like a whipping with Yes. Yeah. Like the Lyrebirds. Like the Yeah. And they had like the rainforest bird. Yeah, yeah, that we do have them and you can go out on the balcony first thing in the morning, and you can hear them and it is just like, you are transported to deep rainforest when you hear those birds there. Yeah, we do have them and they are spectacular. Yeah. No, I love that I love. Yeah. And the other thing I remember there being up there was that it got it got light a lot earlier than what it does at home. And so like you'd be woken up with this beautiful bird song. And it was just like, oh my gosh, and then you'd see like, we're staying at the beach at the ocean. It was just like, why did we live where we live? What we need to do here? Yeah, it does. It's like both a blessing and a curse that the sunrise is so early, like the sunrises before five. At the moment, the sun is I can see the sun restarting, like it gets light at like 450. And like, I know that because my child wakes up at that time. So this is before the sun is even, like awakened. My child's like it's going to rise in the next 10 minutes, Mom, I'm ready for it. Like I'm just beating it up, they're ready to give it away when it comes. That's gorgeous. God, it's up to us to keep them I can see how close you are. So you're a singer, songwriter, performer? How did you first get into music? Wow, it's a great question. I grew up moving a lot. So I was born in Brisbane. And then we moved to states five times before I was 10. And yeah, and I didn't have a lot of stability and like the home that we were living in or the friends that I had. And so something that was always really constant in my life was the music that we listened to as a family. It was always like Paul Kelly and Led Zeppelin and the who and Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. And that was like such a core memory of stability and safety for me that I think that really had an impact on when I was getting older what I gravitated towards to cope with stress and to cope with emotion. And I think I was about I was about 10 And we had we just moved to Western Australia. And I remember going into year five and singing just like singing in class. And it was the first time that like a kid had told me that I had a good voice and I was like What do you mean, my family told me that I sound like a dying cat. Literally, they would say that and then I had all these kids being like, Oh, you can really sing. And then suddenly I was like oh that's the thing. Like in my mind. It was the thing that set me apart. So my Had I kind of developed a slightly unhealthy attachment to singing for a long time of like it was my entire self worth. Yeah. And I just kept singing. And then when I graduated high school, I was like to my parents, I'm going to be a singer. And like the shock and horror on their faces of oh, dear Lord, how is she gonna make this work? Because they barely knew that I was like a singer. I was always playing clarinet and double bass, but I never told them that I was a singer until the end of year 12, even though I was like Music captain sung in choirs as sung solo at school all the time. Like I just never told them. Oh, by the way, actually sing all the time. Yeah. So image in your head of this dying cat singer. They really had very little clue that I was as good as I was. Yeah. And I remember them. I remember singing at like the highest high school, entire school presentation that at the end of the year at this big old, like theater, and then hearing me really, for the first time seeing was like a 70 person choir behind me. And I remember afterwards and being like, Are you kidding? Like, what do you mean that you have been singing and being taught for like, what? Why didn't you want to tell us and it was like a whole thing of like me just not telling them that I was a singer, because I didn't want them to tell me that I sounded bad. Oh, yeah. So then I Yeah. And so then I went into performing arts university. And that was an experience and then I lectured and yeah, that was kind of how it all started for me. Yeah, right. Something that's really big for you is harmony, which is I love is I've spent so many years of my life two part singing, and I just adore it. When did you first sort of start to recognize harmony as an actual thing, and start to fall in love with it? Well, I started writing instrumental music before I ever started singing. So I was, I was in year five. And my family had just gotten like the first Apple Computer. And I remember GarageBand being on there, and it was free. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you mean I can put like, I can just make music. And I would spend hours on there just like bashing the typing keyboard as like a piano keyboard, just writing different parts and different. And that's when I started really, I had no idea what harmony was, I didn't know what intervals or anything like that was. But I remember, I listened to classical music growing up. And I had listened to such amazing artists that it was already like, clicking inside of my system, or this, this sounds good. And like this does not sound good. And so it was really very young that I started realizing that I loved harmonies, and then I sang in choir in school. And I always just had this obsession with like harmony was the tool that you could use to express emotion and not need words. And that to me when I was growing up was very important because I didn't necessarily want to talk about what I was feeling. Or there wasn't this wasn't necessarily a space for me to be able to talk about how I was feeling. And harmony was this tool that I was able to use to be like, I am feeling angry, or I'm feeling such pain or such joy and not have to actually with words, say those things. So it definitely was like my own form of therapy for many years. Yeah, that's it. I've never actually thought of it that way. But that is so true. It's like it evokes so much in you when you hear these particular, you know, chords and constructs of notes. That's really incredible. Thanks for Thanks for sharing that. So welcome. It was, honestly I remember being like, the melody, like in contemporary singers today. The thing I always talk to my students about is like, your Lyric should only be doing 50% of the work. Your melodies and harmonies that support the lyrics that you're using. should be doing. Like if you took away the lyrics does your melodies actually say anything? And that was the massive thing for me is like I spent so much time being like, How can I communicate how I feel, without ever having to say one word and harmony was such an amazing tool to use. So it was like a low key obsession of mine. Yeah, I'm pleased because you're very, you've got a very it's like an innate natural ability, which I love. I think that's awesome. Because I think sometimes you can't teach that stuff. I know you can. You can actually teach it but just to get it like I had no formal train Writing in harmony. My dad used to listen to a lot of country music. So Johnny Cash, John Java course all male, like male voices, and I have an alto voice, but that's not that low, you know? It's not John. Hello, thankfully. So yeah, I, I developed a way to sing along to the songs in the car, because I couldn't sing the tune in their, in their, in their what is their their vocal range, there's their register in that register, that's what I'm after. And I couldn't sing it up the octave because my voice was too low. So I started to sing harmony, harmony without knowing what it was just to be able to join in and sing the songs because I love the song so much. And that's just did that too. Oh, and it's like, I'd never been taught and I never knew the words for until years later when people started explaining to me or you're singing in thirds, or you're seeing in whatever is and I was like, Well, that's nice. Glad I know what that means. But I had that's cool. What I do, you know, yeah, and it's just it's worked really great because my sister and I have been together for years as a duo. And I just naturally take the harmonies because it's like, you know, it's just there in your body sort of thing and hear some people are much some people's ears are definitely more receptive and perceptive of harmony. And they find it a lot easier to hear for sure in like when I was lecturing, you could really tell the musicians whose ear was more sensitive to harmony. Yeah, it was yeah, it was something that it usually came down to the type of music that they'd listened to growing up. They were listening to music like country music, a lot of country music has a lot of harmony in it. Like particularly a lot of like, country groups. There's a whole bunch of there. It's so harmony dense in regards to like, there'll be three parts singing the melody like Yes, yep. So it is really interesting seeing how the music you grow up with hugely influences where your strength will lie if you are interested in being a musician. Yeah, that's really cool. That's really cool. The other thing I find I do find it frustrating though, because when you've got that ear and you're used to picking nights and hearing things, when you hear something that's not quite right, it really frustrates you are don't even honest to God. It's like it's a blessing and a curse being so trained in music. I honestly, I remember I went through a phase probably when I was at university, and I was studying it for literally like eight, nine hours a day, I was studying music. And it got to a point where I went definitely went through like a snobby snobby vase being like, What do you mean, you're singing flat? And it feels like, it's like, you know, the pee in the mattress? Yeah, like the old storytel. Yeah, yeah, it felt like that I would hear everything and hear something was flat, I would hear if it didn't match up, I would hear if the harmonies weren't falling. Like the same vibrato, like my ear was so trained that I for a while I actually couldn't enjoy a lot of music. Yeah, yeah. And I actually when I remember when I graduated, I actually had to take a step back and be like Edwina, why did you start singing in the first place? Because it wasn't about the academics. Yeah, it was, it was truly about how it made you feel. You just have the tools to express how you feel better now, but like, yeah, I definitely resonate with what you're saying. So I remember listening to other musicians and being like, they caught even saying, like no, I'm not. I don't think that at all now, but I definitely went through that phase. Oh, yeah. Because, like, I often think about the fact that like, if I wasn't as good as I was, I wouldn't be up there. Because I'm so judgmental on myself that, like, I used to have a habit of judging others with the same lens that I judged myself and because they would never level up to what the capabilities of myself I was like, Why do you think you should be up there? So definitely like to that. Yeah, it's it takes a takes a while to unpack it, for sure. So I understand that. Yes. And I personally had to let go of a lot of like jealousy, like, oh, how come they get to do it? I can do this. Why can I do it? And over the years, I've gotten very good at just going you know what, it's not nothing to do with you, Allison, this is this person. This is where they are in their life and their journey and you have no idea where they come from or what they're doing. And I've just gotten really good at like going that's good on them. I'm really pleased for them. That took a little bit. It's really hard as like a musician when for my personal experience when I was studying it was such a competitive environment that you couldn't help like that you weren't told that there was room enough for everybody. Yeah, space existed for everyone. So you would it was like inbuilt in you to become judgmental and to become competitive and to become this. This thing where you believe that you know if you didn't get that opportunity And then you like you were missing out on the break on the on the next opportunity. And I definitely went through that we will literally got ranked when I was at university. Yeah, we would end the top four singers would get all the opportunities. And I was lucky to always be in that top four. But I remember the, like, I remember the levels that I like, how much I work to be in that top four and how I had massive burnout at the end of studying because of it. Yeah. So it definitely like the music industry breeze you for competitiveness, and it actually takes active, unlike undoing to just allow someone to sing and not charge them. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I grew up doing a Stanford's. They used to put me in a sentence from a very young age. And I think it's the worst thing that ever happened to me, because I just think continued to go through life thinking I was being judged all the time all the time. Yep. Yep. Yep, I still work through that stuff. Yeah. And you have an expectation that whatever, whatever this person tells you must be right. Because they're the adjudicator, you know? And it took me took me years until someone said to me, Allison, are you going to let one person's opinion might like, change your opinion of yourself? You're gonna let that one person have that much control over you. And I just went? Yeah, no, that's what I've been doing since I was like, I don't know. Young Child. Yep. Like, and yeah, music is. So beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Every person will like a particular type of music and like a particular type of voice better. So it's really hard. I remember when I was lecturing, how hard it was to mark someone on the skill. Because it's like, I always knew that I had biases to the types of voices that I liked. So I had to really actively be like, Okay, if I take away my own bias, how do they technically like when we're looking at technique? How the technique because there are some vocal tones that I just love, and there are others that I am interested in. So it is a really, that's why studying music and it's so weird. It's so weird. Yeah, yeah, I have memories of like, but just before I set for the started, like the room is room, excuse me, the rumor mill would start up about who's the adjudicator? And what sort of voice Do they like? And then when we knew that they liked surprise all those hours ago, stuff, nice, you know, what we bother, you know, if you could get you down right from the start, you know, you'd go out there just thinking that they're not gonna like me, because they like sopranos, you know? Yeah. So that, that kills a little person's head. And, you know, it took me took me to I was certainly my young adulthood to actually say to myself, You know what, I don't need to do this anymore. Like, yeah, no one's making me do this anymore. Why am I doing this? I'm actually so thankful that I didn't do a lot of those things when I was that young singing was something that was so incredibly like, personal and like, sacred to me from a very young age. And I didn't have singing lessons until I got into performing arts university because of the fact that I was always like, I don't want someone else to take this, this thing that I have, but I was so young, and I recognize that I recognize. Yeah, and then when I started university, I was like, my song, my voice is the audible version of my soul, I will protect it with my life, because it meant so much to me. And I think that's the reason why I didn't want to have singing lessons in high school because I knew someone was going to come in. And like, I was just learning my voice. I was just like, in this point in time where I didn't want to compete for it. I didn't, I just knew, but then I went to university and it was like, wow, like whiplash? Oh, yeah. Suddenly coming into a highly competitive environment. Being so unlike I was on trained, but I was really passionate about it. So I was able to pick things up very quickly. And it went from being a therapy to being a sport. It was it was a real, a real change for me. And it took I wanted to quit so many times because I was like, I don't love this anymore. This isn't why I started singing. Yeah, and I remember just my lecturer who was spectacular, telling me you know, you have to think of these simply as tools that we're trying to teach you so that you can access your therapy even more specific specifically so I can sing with more nuance and I can have more vocal range to communicate how I'm feeling and I had to come back to that so many times because otherwise it just wasn't worth it. It just wasn't worth it. It was like could you you were you really protective of that because you thought people were going to try and change what you had. Well I would listen to people voices change like really change I was like, This is not you have any more or and I came later came to learn a lot about placement and how placement affects tone and, and I would hear singers mimic other singers. And I was like, well, that's no longer you. You're manipulating your placement to sound like someone else. And therefore it means that you're not actually authentically singing your voice and you're like your story. And that was something for really young age that I was like that's, that's I'm not I'm not willing to do that. Yeah, that's actually one of my pet peeves in in singers is people who manipulate their voice to sound a particular way. It just really makes me just, I just think, and then when they successful at that, and then I've got to finish back, you know, I think that's not even you. Yeah. Because, like we go through stages as a society as being told this is the voice like Christina Aguilera. Oh, my gosh, you had millions of young white children, young white females trying to sound black. Yeah, because of Christina Aguilera, Christina Aguilera had multiple vocal health issues because of her terrible technique in her lower part of her range. She can no longer belt as high as she could, because of how she treated her voice. Yeah. So it was definitely I remember being like, I want to be Christina Aguilera. Like when I was when I was really young. And then I was like, well, this hurts. Yes. Yes. Do this. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, definitely. I think about that often. And I just am thankful to the younger version of myself who was really protective of it. Because I probably wouldn't still be singing if I had been in a Stanford because I cannot compete when it comes to voice like I just I can't do it. I can't do it. I used to do piano. And I did one concert and I would never do it again. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it just, it just takes out like you said this. The soul things like it's just, I don't know. It's odd. I hate them. And I, I paint them with a passion. And I wish I mean, I guess it's taught me something. You get something out of it. But yeah, it wasn't that great. But anyway, enough of that. I know there are times when you feel like you can't do it on your own. I promise you, you're God. So tell me about your album that you released last year, which is amazing. Thank you. That was a birth of a mother. Yes. Yes. So I wrote those songs. When I was pregnant with my son in 2020s. Yeah, 2020 I, like started writing songs and 2021. And for me, they literally those songs were only ever meant for me. It was I had a really tough pregnancy. I had hyperemesis gravidarum I had every everything under the sun. When it comes to like side effects. I used to get pregnancy hives, my vocal cords was so swollen because of how much I was throwing up. Yeah, it was the like, it was so dark that period of time. And I remember being like, where is the music that is specifically for someone like myself, like, where's the music that is for someone who is terrified of becoming a mother, even though they want it so much or terrified of birth. I just needed like a, an audible birthing step. Like that's what it felt like to me, I just needed to write these songs to help me feel supported. And so that's what I did. And because I couldn't work because I couldn't. My vocal stamina was so affected by the sickness, I had a lot of time. To slowly record these songs, I listened back to the vocals, like the lead vocals on some of those songs. And I'm like, oh, man, you can hear the fatigue. Like I know my worth well enough, and I can hear the fatigue, I can hear just how hard I found that period of time in my life. And so they were just the biggest support for me. And that's why I decided after like after, I think I was pretty pregnant when I started releasing the songs, not on Spotify. And I remember other women being like, oh my gosh, thank you. Because like, I was never really into mantra music or like the, those types of things. I was like, I want it to feel contemporary enough that someone who is not spiritual at all, can listen to it and not be like what is this? Yeah. And so it was like bringing my very like specific type of writing into a space where I was like 50% of the population have mothers or mothering or parenting or birthing babies, and there was like, no music just for them. Oh my gosh, yeah. How, how? Oh, how and so I just, I just couldn't get over that. I was like, once again, there's so underrepresented as mothers in, like, I know, there were so many female mother artists, but where is the music that is actually for them. So that's why I created the music. And then last year, I was finally like, I just need these to exist in the world. I just need them to be somewhere easy, even though it doesn't make me money. Because Spotify or Spotify, but I was just like, it just has to exist somewhere. Because, like, I just got to a point where I was like, it's not just for me, it's bigger than me. It's just bigger than me. And so that's why they're on Spotify now. And I just love the album. I still go back and listen to it. I still go backwards to it. Yeah, yeah. So for for those who haven't heard it, how do you how can you describe? Because it is very unique. Yeah, the way that you put things together and you add delays? Can you just describe how you do it? Maybe a process of how you put it together? Yeah, so essentially, I'm a vocal looping artist. So I create songs 95%, just with my voice. So essentially, it is a song where every instrument that you might hear in a normal track is my voice in my music. Yeah, it's I don't know, I don't know, genre, in regards to my music, like it really is really hard to, but it definitely has influences of many different styles. And yeah, it was one of my all time favorite time to this day favorite artists and has been probably one of the biggest influences in the way that I write. But yeah, that's how I would kind of, I would say it's like a mix of ner with Gosh, I don't even know that's a really hard thing. I used to be really good at describing what I did when I wrote like, pop music. And how I'm just like, you have to hear it. Yeah, no, literally. But it is it's very vocally dense, harmonically dense music that takes you on quite the emotional journey. Hmm, absolutely. Now that's a great way of describing it. Did you make a sort of a considered decision to not include instruments in your work? Was it like, this is you're taking ownership of this yourself? Yeah, it was I, I, when I first started, like performing I had an 11 piece band, I had a big band, I had three horns, three backing vocalists, it was like the full shebang. And the first EP I ever released was, was that it was massive. And then I remember finding it so hard to ever do gigs or to ever, like it was just a really difficult thing. And I remember being like, these instruments aren't even accurately doing or playing what I exactly want in my head, because they're all bringing their own personality and their own filter to the souls. And I remember just starting to do vocal, I started vocal looping when I was 17. And I'm 29 now. So I started vocally exploring harmony and rhythm with my voice a long time ago. And I think I was 21 or 22 When I started writing, just vocal music. And it took me a really long time to accept that that's what felt most authentic for me as a musical expression. Because I was always like, this doesn't fit anywhere in music like this doesn't, it didn't fit anywhere. It was never going to end up on radio, in the radio stations that I dreamed of like I really grappled with that for a long time. Because I was like, this just isn't like anything else I've heard. And I didn't know where it would fit. So it took me a really long time to just be like, well, this is this is me like this is this is what goes on in my brain. And I just remember getting to a point where I was like this, I have to honor the fact that if I'm going to be a musician, I am going to be an authentic musician. And this is what is going to have to sound like and it might not be for everybody. But I can go back and listen to this music and know exactly how I was feeling and hear every single vocal harmony and know that It was placed there, because my brain was like it needs to be placed there. So intentional. Yeah, it is, it was really intentional. And it's like I love collaborating with others. However, I always loved being able to have a bit of a control freak, probably. I liked being able to control where everything sat and the I knew that I could sing certain things better than other singers. And when I was my song, I wanted to be able to exactly replicate my harmony, exactly replicate, like, my vibrato on certain things. So that it would wouldn't each pot Ness doesn't necessarily stand out. By itself. It kind of feels like a wall of sound. Yeah. And so I just practiced and did that and just wrote, and I look back at the first vocal looping songs that I ever recorded in my bedroom. And it's like three layers. And I remember being like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And now you now you look at my recorded files of my songs, and it's like, minimum 40 to 50 layers of stuff. Oh, wow. Because everything gets doubled, and we pull things to the left and pull things to the right. And there's parts that exact like work exactly, just as rhythmic stuff. And, and to me, I was just like, oh, this just feels so cool. To like, Okay, so my two biggest influences are Enya. And Bobby McFerrin. Yeah, right? Yep. I studied him when I was studying at university, and he had such a huge impact on me, because he's ranged was phenomenal. And his ability to move, I just had never heard anyone like that. And I went, so I dove so deep into his vocal past. And that's why I was like, Oh, my gosh, I have to try and replicate that on a looper because I couldn't sing as low as him. And that's kind of how it really like that love affair of like being able to just be voice because his was just voice you would hear him collaborate with other musicians. And he would be singing the baseline, while the double bass player was playing, like some type of melody. It was just like, holy moly, that just blew my mind. Like it was just had such a profound impact on me. So those two together is kind of how I ended up with what I do now. Bodies Yeah, a couple of things from that. I want to mention that when you talked about having to sort of have this, I'm gonna call it an existential crisis, but literally deciding between what was genuine and authentic for you to present as your music and what I think what music industry or being in the music environment tells us, our end goal is we have to be heard we have to be on radio, we have to get our break, we have to do this, you know, it's fighting against all that. Yeah, it's, it's pretty hardcore, I really had a hard time with it. I, when I go back on my own catalogue of music, you literally see the evolution of that crisis of me starting to write with that 11 piece band and then moving into one like almost electronic music. And that was the moment where I was like, you've gotten too far off, like you've gone too far away from I was singing lead vocals on like, EDM tracks, like, like club bangers. Yeah. And I was like, you have gone so far away from where you're meant to be. And because I had health issues, I remember thinking to myself, you only can sing a certain amount of hours a day, you only have the energy to do so much creation, if you're going to do it. It needs to be something that you will love. And it needs to be something that makes you feel like truly seen and truly heard. And that was something I was so passionate about is is what I'm putting out into the world. Is that Is that me? Is that me? And the more that I practice, and that's why I always say to people, you know, your first thing doesn't have to be this thing that gets you your followers that gets your big break, whatever that means to you. Like just start because I look back and I'm like, I'm so happy I recorded that music and released it because that you can literally see the evolution of myself as an artist and trying to work hard to get to a place where the music I'm releasing most accurately reflects my internal state. And I remember when I finally got there it just like that was the vocal loop. It was just like a clip. Yeah, and it was just like, Ah, this is it. Like this is me. This is all the everything I hear in my head. I can finally create something that like that everyone else can listen to. Because even when I was with the 11 piece band, I'd be hearing so much more in my mind that was never going to be able to be played by another instrument. And other singers would were having a trouble hearing the harmonies or I couldn't have 17 singers on stage with me. So I just couldn't do that it was just, I couldn't get paid any money doing that, like I just there was no, there was no money. So if it was just me on stage with my Looper one, I would actually make money. And two, I was able to have ultimate freedom and ultimate control. Yeah, and not have to worry about someone else keeping up with me. And it was just as like, oh, that's what it felt like, it felt like such a big sigh of relief. That's what it definitely felt like, yeah, I can relate to that on a slightly different level. But same sort of thing. I do have control issues. And my sisters listening should be nodding your head right now. Because I, as I'm gonna say, I hear things, and I know how I want it to sound. And I'm getting better. I mean, I think I've, since I've totally got over it, but I don't have to do at all. Like, it doesn't have to be me. But when I spent 20 years singing in a vocal group, and towards the end, it was just, it had gone from this massive choir to like we would I was involved in like the Committee stage of things. And we, we turned it into four or five, sort of niche groups. So I was in this, this group of there were six of us. And we're, we're doing part singing. And I guess every group is going to have a leader. And it wasn't me, which was fine, because I didn't want to lead but I wanted to have my ideas heard. And I wanted to be able to say, actually, can we do it like this? Or can we try it at this tempo or whatever. But the personality clashes made it really hard to do that. So I just went, I'm not doing this anymore. And I didn't do any anything except for I turned myself into a soloist and just got mine backings got all my own gear just made it possible that I didn't have to organize rehearsals with people, I could do everything I wanted. So I basically just went, nah, this this is too much for my head anymore. And around that time. You know, my, my first son was gonna say he was about seven. Were thinking about having another one. And I was like, No, this is just too much. And so I just brought it all the way back to me and then gradually added my sister back in, because we could communicate and and do things together. But it's I don't know, you just get to that moment where you just go, This isn't me anymore. Yeah. And I think it's like, you have to give yourself permission to be okay with that. Like, I remember accepting that my music will may not live in the spaces that we are told music should live in. I remember being like, you know what, it's okay, if it doesn't end up on this radio, because I'm not the type of person that listens to the radio like that. Anyway, like, I had to really get so clear on what if I was to be a musician my whole life? If I came at the end of it, what do I want to feel like I have done for myself? And am I proud of where my music has existed? And when am I creating music that actually helps people and makes people feel things? Or am I writing music for a record label? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I really came back to like, oh, I need this is I came back to that little like 10 year old girl who wrote music because it was therapy was is what I always came back to. I was like, I want to be able to look back on to her. And be like, I I kept, I kept going with that I using was first and foremost an emotional expression for me. And anyone who gets to enjoy it. It's like, you're welcome. Like, I write, I write for me, I sing for me, I perform for me. And it just happened to be the the moment I found the most authentic expression of myself at the moment where people were like that was that was a really interesting moments like when I I don't know it doesn't happen for everybody. But for me personally, it was like I just had this perfect combination of like, sound like the sound that I was producing people were looking for. Yeah, and I'm so thankful for that. But in the end, even if I didn't have that I can listen to my music and be proud that I did it for myself. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The way you're listening to the odd thing. You talked about being pregnant. How wild is your little boy here? He is to in May. So yeah, he's a wild. I was gonna say fun times. My gosh, my child has been In a wild since the moment he was conceived, like home I gosh, I could not prepare myself at all for that journey like it was. It has been the baptism of fire over and over again with my beautiful beautiful son. He's just so wild. Oh man. Yeah, he's Yeah, it's been big. It's been a big, big journey from being sick. My whole pregnancy. He went to 42 weeks. Yeah. Oh, yeah, he was coming out. No, he was very happy. And I was in severe pain, like a my body it was just like, well, we're gonna, we're gonna break now. We're done. And then birth going sideways. In regards to Yeah, it didn't go to plan. And then our postpartum with Fergus was honestly I didn't think between pote like pregnancy and birth, I thought they were going to be the two hardest experience, but it was our postpartum. It was like a first eight months with Fergus was the just the worst time in our lives easily. So definitely, I felt like I had what I suppose people call like ego deaths. I just felt like I died over and over and over becoming a mother. It was just so your identity was changing so much. And yeah, because I barely could sing when I was pregnant. And then after I gave birth, my plan was to go back to work back to being an artist at like three months postpartum. And then I had to have an emergency cesarean for our for birth, after a home tried home birth for 24 hours. And then we gave birth to Fergus and Fergus was a incredibly distressed child, he had so much stress in his body. So we spent the first almost year of his life just supporting him like he would scream and cry for about nine hours a day. It was we couldn't leave the house. He never was able to go into a carrier because he hated any type of pressure on his restriction on his body. We couldn't put him in a pram until he was six months old, seven months old. And still to this day, he doesn't doesn't like being a pram and then he started walking at eight months started crawling at four months. Yeah, he was we we had the hardest time no one could like look after him for the first nine months of his life because he would he just had he had a lot of trauma in his body. He came out holding his neck up screaming bloody murder. Well, he could take a turn his head from birth like he was never a floppy head, baby Cheevers Yeah, he used to he never he hated sit like I have forgotten so much. We've definitely blacked out a lot. But he hated sitting from the moment he was born. He was like 10 days old and he was his legs were straight and they wouldn't he just wouldn't sit. Yeah. He had just so much tension in his body. So we had to do a lot of work with him to help him basically unwind his nervous system and that involved a lot of like, trauma for us parents of listening, being with him as he expressed his emotions and we would sit with him. And he was like we knew he was fed in we we'd gone every Western medicine route to see if there was anything wrong. I say that in inverted commas wrong with him. Yeah. And then we found a way of parenting. Yeah, that was the game changer. We worked with like a birth trauma aware parenting specialist, and she changed our life. It was yeah, it was fantastic. But Ferg was a really, really intense child. And for the first year and he still to this day is massive feelings. So I didn't sing for a year for the first year of Fergus his life I didn't didn't touch my Looper at all. And it was the worst time of my life. Yeah, yeah. Is it's literally your that identity that part of you is just disappeared. Yeah, and I genuinely thought I was never going to sing again. Like I really thought that this was over because, like fit I couldn't sing with Fergus because Fergus just hate like he just couldn't. He wouldn't sit like he couldn't be still. He wasn't just the baby you can put in a bouncer like ever. I couldn't just put him in a carrier when he wouldn't sleep. He was such a light sleeper for the first year and a half of his life. So I couldn't sing like I could never leave the bedroom and sing. So he was honestly he was like 16 months the first time I pulled out my looper. Yeah, right, since before giving birth. But I had honestly thought, hey, and my voice was so wrecked because my body was so exhausted. That I had such limited vocal range, my muscles were just shot to pieces. And I just have such deep set I have so sad. Like, I remember being so sad about it. Like I was just like this has been my life for a decade. And then some I would I had so much anger because I would watch other musicians who were mothers be able to balance both. Like they were able to take their children to their shows their child was able to fall asleep on their body as they practiced, I would watch them record music with their kids in the room. And I had a baby that was so angry. Just such an angry and struggling child that I couldn't we couldn't do anything like our life didn't even look remotely like it had before giving birth and so we really, we really struggled and we were in lockdown. And we had no family man. And that's the thing the thing that you had always gone to to work through stuff with your music that wasn't accessible tea. Nope. So I pretty iced I had, I did suffer from like, postnatal depression. Because I had no I had nothing no, not only because the pregnancy was traumatic, the birth was traumatic and our postpartum was just the worst thing in the world. But also because I just had no outlet like I just had the tools that I would always use to express how I was feeling I didn't have that anymore. And it was just it was such a dark time. Oh my gosh, it was so dark. Which is the it was I would wear out over here being like we're one and done because the idea of going through that again is just yeah, we couldn't we couldn't even fathom it. It's just now that focus is almost two is the first time in years that we've been like oh, hello like to my husband. Hi. I haven't. I haven't seen you for a while. I haven't seen you for a while like he slept on the couch for a whole year. It was just Yeah, it was very hard. So I remember being him being focus being 16 months old and finally dusting like dusting off my looper and being like Oh, hello old friend. Yeah, Joy Joy choice to see these moments to catch up above God it's up to us to give them that's got me I nearly started bawling then. Oh, man. That's tough that hell yeah. How did you get through it? Literally. How did you get through it? It was it was the it was the toughest thing I have honestly ever been through. I don't even know cam has my husband has pretty well blacked out the first four or five months of focus his life. Yeah, really can't remember it. Because we were in straight survival mode. Like we couldn't leave the house like I we couldn't even walk up the street without various catatonic Lee screaming. And we used to sit on a bouncing ball for hours just to her to try and keep him like, that's when we were we didn't understand birth trauma or nervous system issues. And we just It was exhausting. And I, I don't even know how we made it through. We just were like, we just have to. It was like the mantra of survive the day, survive the day survive the day. And it felt like we and it's still to this day. It's a lot easier now. But it honestly felt like we never got a break of like Fergus was then he went from being a really distressed, massive feelings child to suddenly like, crawling so early, and then walking so early. Yeah. And so it was just like, we went from one thing to the next thing. And he was such an angry, frustrated kid because he wanted to do everything on top of like, Oh, I've got so much anger and like so much feelings and you need to and we could never pacify him. Like if we even if we tried. Even if we tried. He was like, No, you will hear me. Yeah, we used to just sit there with him. And we listened. And we listened to him. And it was like, I'm glad I took videos of it because I remember like, it was so intense. And you'd watch his little nervous system unwind. And I remember thinking to myself, I was like, Okay, we're probably only going to do this once because of this, like it's going to get better. And I and that's when I started reaching out on Instagram and I found other mothers who had gone through a very had very similar babies to Fergus Yeah. And because everybody around me all of the friends that I had that had been having babies had were experiencing nothing like we were like it was just and that was made it so hard. Because the we didn't even know a baby like Fergus was possible. Because we never seen anything like him in regards to his intensity and he his stress and his body and he never sat. He was always twitching. And oh my gosh. And so we really it was just, it was survived the day like I cried a lot at nighttime. Like I cried, I cried the first year of his life. That was the only way and we went into therapy. I started going and seeing a therapist because we were doing so much listening to Fergus his feelings that we just had to get that extra support. And we didn't have family support at all. So it was just kind of like we Yeah, it was dark. Oh my gosh, it was so dark. It's just started even though Oh, man. Yeah, it was it was definitely hard. And I remember the first time I met in person, another mother who had a baby like Fergus, and I just cried to just almost a relief like it was just me it was because I only met her in the last like two months because she lives over here. And she her experience, she gave birth to her child three days after Fergus and her child, her birth mirrored our birth and their her baby mirrored Fergus, and they might turned out that Kim and her husband had actually met each other through and aware parenting men's group online. And they so it was like, just meeting someone else who could relate to so many aspects of our parenting experience was just like, incredibly healing. And I didn't know that I needed that healing before until I met her in the flesh. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, there's someone who truly understands. Yeah, yeah. And that's thing like when you said before about, sorry, I've just realized that my camera's frozen up, but I am still here. In that position, look like or it's fun. Yeah, like the people around you that have having babies that are not experiencing what Vegas is experiencing. It'd be so easy for them to place judgment on your parenting as a reason why your baby's struggling and that it would that would be tremendously unhelpful and unkind. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I was pretty I was very lucky that the everyone around me knew that what we were going through was really different to theirs and that we were doing everything I like the everything we did to support Fergus, and then I came off with first we were like, it might it was a tongue tie. So we had his tongue tie snipped, and then we took him to osteo, cranial sacral therapy, physio, Cairo, naturopath, I came off basically all foods other than roast vegetables and chicken for four or five months, I have lunch and dinner. I used to give him a naturopathic tonic to try and help we thought it was might be a stomach. Everything, I changed the way that I was breastfeeding to try and help Oh my gosh, we went we did. We knew we knew that we were doing everything possible, like within, like, anything possible to try to help him. Yeah. Until we got to a point where we were like it, none of that it's his stress, like is so much you would look at his body. And you could tell that his nervous system was so wired. And I felt so much guilt in my body for that because I was like, he became like that when he was in my womb. That was definitely the the story that I told myself for a really long time. So I definitely think that I punished myself for that. And I took on a lot more of the listening to feelings and my husband because I was like, I did this. I have to undo it. Yeah, right. Was there a point where that became, you realized that that wasn't the truth? Um, I think over time, I just was like, even if it was me, what's done is done. Like I couldn't like I couldn't go back and change my pregnancy. Also, I was like, Yeah, I was incredibly stressed. We were, it was a pandemic. There was stuff that was happening within my family on the other side of the country that I could never, I couldn't go and be with them. We were told when we were pregnant, that Forbus was going to have Down syndrome. Like our pregnancy was really stressful. Yeah. And we'd also miscarried before Fergus, and so I was really stressed. Yeah, yeah. So even if, even if, like, there's certainly so many things that I probably could have done differently, but I just got to a point where I was like, I'm doing everything within my ability now to support his nervous system so that it can relax. I can't like I can't keep beating myself up for what the experience was for him because he's thriving now. Like I was. I was like Kim and I sacrificed a lot of ourselves and our relationship in that first year for Fergus to be How he is now. Yep. And I often think to myself, I can't even imagine the type of child that he would be now, if we hadn't supported him so much releasing the tension that he had in his body then. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What does your music look like now your music practice now that Fergus is a little older? Yeah. So he goes to date a family daycare two days a week. And so that's pretty much when I get to do anything outside of mothering. Because he is a full on child, I can't just set my Looper up. And when he's around this, he was just honestly, and it would be you'd set it up so that you could have fun with your child. Yeah. Yeah. So I Tuesdays and Wednesdays are the days that I can actually create music. And that's the days that I do all of my art and all of my work. And that's really it. Like, I sometimes do it in the evenings, after he goes to bed, because our My office is down the other end of the house, but I'm so tired. By the end of the day, he he wakes up between four and 430. Every single, every single morning, and he's ready to go. He's so turbo. Yeah, he's so turbo, that by the end of the day, you are us. You just you just absolutely exhausted. So I really, I just look forward to Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and I'm like, this morning, I was like, okay, I can actually like do all the things that it's hard. And the thing that I have struggled with the most is the fact that I used to spend my entire week. If I had any creative idea, I could write that in there, stick with it, and create and that was just, oh my gosh, it was so hard for me to have to, like lock in key ideas and be like later, later, later, later, because I was that person that was like, I'd have an idea in the morning and it would be recorded in the evening. Yeah, yeah. So that's been something the the amount of creativity that I am able to do is significantly less but because I think I went from so much to nothing. I two days a week feels like absolute heaven. I'm like, take it I'll take it oh my god one hour fantastic. Like cam can take focus out for like for an afternoon on the weekend. And I just get to stay home and do like anything to do with my art and I feel like a different woman. Yes. And so it's been like hard fought to get to this and I'm I think I'm like very grateful. I'm really quick at doing stuff now. Like even quicker than I was before. Because I go okay, you have four hours and you have to get all this done. Go like yes, like I don't I don't go with this work. I trust the idea. Trust the idea. And that's been the so it's definitely gotten me really like onto it. But right now it's two days a week that I have to do everything it's art is Chris's son so what sort of things are inspiring you at the moment with your, with your music? What are you sort of creating about, I guess, I am definitely processing my postpartum period through my music at the moment. I am writing songs that allow me to make sense of the experience that we had. Because we are kind of through that dark tunnel of that first really, almost two years of his life. I'm at a point where I'm like, Okay, I need to process what we what we went through, like I really need to, because my body still shakes when I talk about it. Like yeah, my body goes into like a trauma response when when we talk about that whole experience that we had, and I recognized that for me like therapy was great. But it didn't get everything that I needed out of my system. And so right now I'm the music that I'm recording for myself is definitely postpartum music that I'm hoping one day I can release because I know that there are other mothers that really need music that like validate is the experience that they're having? Absolutely. So that's the myself right now. That's the music I'm writing. But I'm also writing, actually, I'm running choir music. Because I have started a choir. Yes, I was gonna ask you about that. Yeah, well, I have been, I think most singers that love the voice fantasize about either singing in a choir or having their own choir. And I was like, I had been thinking about it for years. I was like, three years ago, it's so great to have a choir because I used to lecture. And one of the classes that I lectured in was creative arranging and voice and we do a lot of choir stuff in that. And I was always, like, I'd love to be able to transpose some of the music that I write into acquire setting, to be a hero at like, live and just to be able to have other people get the opportunity to experience singing my, my arrangements, and I was like, Okay, so we're not in lockdown anymore. I'm not in Margaret River anymore. I don't have a newborn baby anymore. Like, I think the time is now. And I was like, um, I'll probably just like, run it from my house, maybe like 10 people, that'd be great. And then I was like, I don't have space to 10 cars. And so then I had a friend that I've met who has a shop in this particular pavilion and your Monday. She was like, why don't you hold it in the pavilion? And I was like, Oh, my gosh, that mean that can hold more than 10 people? I don't know. And then I, and then I was like, Okay, maybe I'll just make the first choir session free so that people can come and have an idea about like, what is the type of music that I would create, and we were like, Let's hope for 20. And then I put the signup form, we had 70 people, oh, good for you. And I and my mind was blown, my mind was blown. I was like, oh, people want to sing. And I think the thing that I can recognize is that a lot of choirs around for an older demographic. And also, a lot of the music that they're singing isn't, if you haven't sung before, or if you haven't done in a while, it's can be quite daunting for a lot of people. And so my type of music that I write is, it's pretty repetitive, it's looping. So the parts once they have them, is a very easy for them. And I wanted it to be like focused on your part. And it might not be hard. But I want you to be able to understand how it fits within the context of the whole song, so that you can actually listen to all of the other parts going on. Yeah, and I suppose after being isolated for so long, I was just desperate to create something that allowed me to be with other people in a creative setting. Yeah. So that's kind of we had our first rehearsal on Sunday. And I think there was like 4045 people came, which was just wow, that was just amazing. And damn, they could sing. I was I went into it being like, I went into being like, I don't know, like, we'll see what level they're at. And they picked up parts so fast. I was like, Okay, I now know what type of choir I'm writing for. Yeah, and so it's just like, kind of like a dream, it's the first time that I'll be able to actually make money since becoming a mum. Because I have not really been able to work because of Fergus. And then we moved across the country. And so this is like really a really exciting and fulfilling way to actually make some kind of income for myself, as well, which is just like a added bonus, to be honest. Yes. Yeah. I gotta admit, when I when I saw that your Instagram reel that you created, you're working through that process of, do you think the terms right now and then you can tell us like, Oh, my God, I want to do that. Because it's like, no one does that everyone wants to sing, like, just crap songs, and, you know, versions of pop songs. It's like, getting back to what music is, you know, at its essence. Yeah, I had an experience years and years ago. Because through our, our vocal group, we'd get like, we go to places and learn things. And people come and visit and teach us things. And this guy just broke it all down one day said, he said, we're not going to sing anything, that we're not going to sing things with words, we're not going to, you're not gonna know this song. There's no structure to it. He didn't even give us sheet music. So straightaway, people are freaking out because this is not what we do. He gave us a chord and he just said, Pick a night in this court. And then he'd go over, like we had to hold it for a long time. So it was good way to practice our, you know, control vocal, and listen to the agility X to you. When are they going to breathe, you have to not breathe at the same time, all this sort of stuff that was held, it's good, it's good things there. But then it just go over to one part and it just say, just move your note. And so people are looking at each other like, oh, how do I move my note? What do I do? Where do I put it? I don't know what to do. And he's like, just trust yourself. Just just Just move your note. And so then people would just move their note. And then he'd come up to another group and just say, now you move on. And it was just the most freeing experience. And I still couldn't let as I'm telling you, I can see it in my head, it was so wonderful. I was like, we don't need all these bells and whistles and all this stuff that goes with it. You know, it's just getting back to the essence of it. And it was amazing. And I think the thing that I recognize is that people feel so intimidated by singing, for so intimidated by singing, because, you know, the music that you hear on the radio are either very auto tuned or from trained singers. And so there aren't many spaces that exist for them to have the opportunity to actually sing. And most people can hold a note, like, even those that believe they're tone deaf, it's just the muscle of super underdeveloped, so the more you use it, the better your ear and vocal muscle gets. Yeah. And I was just like, I want people to have the opportunity to sing something that's not a radio song, that where that you're expressing an emotion, because you're part of a whole, like really having that idea that you are a really important piece of this puzzle. And it might not be a hard part. But you actually have the opportunity to develop your ears and understand how your part is, like the context of it. Yeah, where you fit in and where we fit in. You know how important your party is like, yeah, I remember at one point being in was doing an SSA arrangement, and I was first our show, and we were literally a drone. We had a drone, honestly, one of the most important ones. Yeah, God. Yes. And I said that all the time. I say that all the time. I'm like, the Jerome note is literally one of the most important notes in almost every arrangement that I do, because of how all the other notes are affected by that one note. It's like the the level of tension that you can create from a moving parts and how that one note actually influences. Yeah, yeah, I, there was a group on Sunday that for one song, their note was a drone note and I was like, I want you to take this opportunity to feel what this drone note actually is here to make you feel like why is that drone note here? Like if without it? What are the other parts sound like? Yeah, yeah, it's and I, you almost as if you listen to my music, there's almost always a drone note in the songs. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's so important. It is so important. And then, years later, obviously, years and years and years later, my son now plays the bagpipes. And when you hear it, when you hear those drones fire up, they're like, Yeah, I get this, like, they're the heart and soul. Like they're the bits that you know, the hold everything together. And I always hated how people, they played, like these jokes on our toes like this, the joke like the sopranos says to the alto, the melody and they go, Oh, I don't get it. And they're like, Yeah, course you don't get it, like you never get the tune. But it's like, the tune is the most boring part of Yeah, it's always underneath that just drives it. Well, it's like that's the when I think about harmony, it's like, it's really easy for most singers to sing a third above. The third below is the like the harmony that creates like the most important texture, but it's also the hardest for someone's ear to actually be able to hear. So it's like something that I always work on. It's like the you've got your melody and you've got your Harmony above, but that harmony below is what gives like the rich texture of your sound. So low voices are just like, so important to me, because of the impact that they have on a harmony. Because it's like I when I think of harmonies, I think of like, a really important balance. And if you have too many harmonies that sit higher in a register, your your balance is like off put and suddenly, the top harmonies are starting to really ping out rather than it being like a really perfect balance. Yeah, and I mean, the only reason I am so obsessive over those because I've spent so much time listening to harmony, and so much time listening to how harmony impacts me emotionally. And when I go into a song, I'm always like, how do I want people to feel when they hear this and being able to pick notes that I know will elicit those emotions, but that just comes with like, a lot of a lot of time. Yeah, I think a real interest in in being able to express some like something audibly with no words. It's also like it's when, when it doesn't have words, people's minds don't have to think so much. Because what I often find is people who aren't necessarily singers, they get really stressed about having to remember words if you're not using a book. And what I found is with singers that aren't, you know, choir singers, like haven't had that type of training, their head will be so down in their book trying to remember their part that they're actually missing half What's the point of singing with other people? Yeah, that's it, it becomes this insular thing that you're just focusing on yourself. Yeah, yeah. And so that's just why I do it's like, quite simply, it's for them to be up at around each other. Yeah. My God My says, the memory of my legs. When you said before, about listening to each other, I feel like that is the most underrated part of part seeing people get so focused on themselves, like, and you said about heads in books. But I could, I could literally for years seeing other people's parts, because you spent so much time working out where you fit in, and perhaps why you fit in to this where you see as part of his whole group, it's so important, and I think it teaches you so much about, like life skills, you know, listening to each other. When When do you need to back off? When is it, you know, time for you to come forward? And you're blending and listening to those around you like that? When I said before about when you take your breath like, well, we're not good at listening as a society. Yeah, absolutely. It's when like, it's really easy to see that we're not very good at listening to others, because we're always thinking about the thing that we're going to say next. And so it's like, singing in a group l gives you the opportunity to, and it kind of forces you to have to listen to others. And it's like, it's why I make it's why I do things really specifically of not having like books to read from and making parts simple and repetitive. Because I want to give people the opportunity to work on their listening skills. Because then they just have that like ability to be like, Oh, I could switch parts I could. Like I can hear their part. If someone next to me is struggling to hear their part. I can help them find their part. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it definitely definitely oh my gosh, I remember singing in choirs, and your head would be down. And you'd just be following the words. And I just be following the music writing on the page. And I wouldn't be caring if I was singing too loud. Like that's the other thing is like, yeah, everyone wants to be the soloist. Yeah, that's like you go okay, but you're part of a hole. Which means if you can't hear the Alto or you can't hear the sopranos, then you're already singing too loud. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it teaches you so much doesn't Yeah, I think it's such a beautiful opportunity. Like, I love the spaces that choirs can, like the right type of wires can create. Put that caveat in there? That's so exciting. I'm so pleased you're doing that. I think it's a wonderful expansion of your, you know, sharing your, say your wave of music, but it's like, yeah, it can't you know what I mean? It kind of like no, I do. It's like my, the way that I write like I'm giving it. And the thing that I was told over and over on Sunday was it's like, people were really looking forward to having an opportunity to sing the type of music that I write. Yes. And I was like, oh, yeah, well, that's that that meant so much to me, because it's like, as we've said, I've spent so long worrying that the type of music that I wrote wasn't didn't fit anywhere. And then to have people be like, Oh, I've seen these parts at home, or I listened. Yes. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, absolutely. I sing. I sing these harmonies by myself in the shower. I'm like, You kidding me? Like, I yeah, it's just been such a beautiful validation of what I have chosen to be as an artist. Yes, absolutely. And I would love to be able to, like, I would want to create a choir in Sunshine Coast, but I want to take like a live loops workshop and be able to take what I do to a day long workshop somewhere in other places that because other people would love the opportunity to sing these types of arrangements. Yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, it is really it's a really exciting project. And I'm just like, feel so fulfilled, but it feels really like in alignment with what I do. Yeah. And I think that's what I've been trying to find is like, I don't want to teach people singing how to sing well, like I don't have no interest in teaching technique. I'm like, there are so many singing teachers out there. Like I want to create spaces where people get to experience harmony, because harmony has had such a profound impact on me. And my ability to cope with life. Yeah. Oh, that's why I'm so pleased for you. Honestly, it's just sounds crisp, I can be my heart swell. You know, it's just wonderful. I really I'm really, really pleased for you. And I'm very jealous that I'm not there. I'm I just have to come down the coast. Do you come down a long way? Right to the bottom of the mainland. Sorry, just on that if there's payment listening that are in your neck of the woods So what's the best way for them to get in touch if they're interested in in a bit more, we will be social media. So my instagram handle is the dot Edwina dot Masson, Ma, Double S O n. That's where pretty much everything that I do everything that I offer, all the links to all of my work is that's kind of where I play at the moment. So that would be that that would be the spot and just message me or email me any, like, beautiful girl up? I'm pretty, I'm pretty easy to contact. That's awesome. Yep. So we're just about to start term one. So it's going to run in terms, and at the end of each term, we're going to have like a little concert. And so that's kind of where my focus is at creatively focuses. Yeah, one thing at a time choir, establish the choir. Yeah. And on that, I think it is important for people to have a goal to be to perform, because I've been at times in a group where you don't have any, you're just singing, it's like, that's lovely. We love it. But to be able to then actually put yourself up there is like a whole new kettle of fish, you know, for people to get to witness the work that they've put in, you know, I mean, I'm just like, I really believe. Yeah, and because then it gives other people permission to do the same thing. It's like, this isn't a bunch of people that have grown up to having singing, training or singing in choirs, but then when you see them sing together as a group, and they can see how they've improved from the start of the term to the end of the term. Because it's important for me to be able to teach them technique and teach them how to braid properly and teach them how to warm their voice up. It's, they would be remiss of me to like, just get them singing and not care about their vocal health. Yeah. I even heard people saying at choir, they could hear the difference in their voice from the start of that two hours to the end of the two hours, because of the muscle, like because of them actually using that muscle. Yeah. And it's like, I want to give people the opportunity one to hear the work that these people have been putting in, but to then maybe even try it themselves. Absolutely. And see that it's actually it's not this way out scary thing that's only accessible to people who've been, you know, tracing. elite group of people. Yeah, that's how it definitely can feel. Yes, yeah. And so and then when you give people the opportunity to actually sing with other people, you realize that most people can sing everybody has a voice, like, Yeah, everybody has a voice. Yeah, there's people that tell me they can't see I'm like, you just don't know how to use your instrument. Literally. That's me, you know, every muscle a thing in your body that we all have, you know, it's just like some people are born with the ability to run faster than others before they've ever been trained. And then they choose because they have, they're better at that party, that muscle is more developed, then they might choose to become a runner. Some people's vocal cords, or their ears are born more developed with more of an aptitude for music. But it just because the starting point is different doesn't mean you don't have the ability to work to be as good or whatever, it's just a muscle a muscle that can be stressing it literally and you learn that that's really obvious when when you've been a singer for a while, and you get some training and you go Holy shit, I can do this as well. I didn't know that, you know? Yeah, it's like I don't sound like I sound like I did when I was 15 You know what I mean? Like I had a good voice when I was 15. But I sound nothing like I did then because I've had training so I've just worked on the muscle and the more you do it, the more flexibility the muscle has and the more agility it has. And yeah, so I definitely believe in like just give it a shot and I want to create spaces that give the people the the opportunity to safely do that. Yeah, no, I'm good on Yeah, that's it's so inspiring. I'm really pleased for you and I'm gonna follow the journey along on your Instagram I'm really really pleased for you that's wonderful too chatting with you it's been lovely. I feel energized and light and bubbly. Now I feel like I need to go record something for how Yeah, that's what I'm gonna be doing I would be like, like, peace out. I'll get my recording studio open. Yeah, thank you so much for having me these I always value having a space opera like opportunity to share my journey and to share my story with others because I I know that my experience and what I do can hopefully make other people feel less alone. And and so I I am very thankful to to you for having a space or Thank you. Thank you and I'm frozen still, but I'm sorry. No. I know I like you face has been frozen in some great position. It's hilarious, isn't it? Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review. Following or subscribing to the pod Fast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom ee the day Hi mean I know lives for was I must was five okay I will see you God

Scott Maxwell Father's Day Ep - SA musician + educator S2 Ep61 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts Welcome to the first of 2 special episodes released to coincide with Father's Day here in Australia. Scott Maxwell is a musician and educator from Mount Gambier South Australia and a dad of 4 boys, including a set of twins. Scott's dad was a guitarist in a band, as an 8 year old he was listening to Tears for Fears and Duran Duran, the Shadows, surf pop and his dad taught him lead guitar. In his early high school years Scott created a band with his mates and his interest in music kept developing throughout high school. He wanted to get in the education system because he could see that it was broken and did not cater for all learners and wanted to be a force for change. He made a career of teaching music and did so for years. Scott was the winner of an ARIA Award in 2018 - , The Telstra Music Teacher Award . Scott left his class room teaching position in 2020 to begin a new adventure in sound, working as a mentor in a not=for=profit organisation that teaches transformative learning through creativity, enabling teachers to deliver music to their students. In addition to his day job Scott's experimentation in sound has evolved to him running fortnightly sound baths in Mount Gambier called "Frequency Fridays" with all the incredible instruments he has collected. Connect with Scott instagram youtube Podcast - instagram / website Music you'll hear today is from Scott and is used with permission. If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the first of two special episodes released to coincide with Father's Day here in Australia. Scott Maxwell is a musician and educator from Mount Gambier, South Australia and the dad of four boys, including a set of twins, Scott's dad was a guitarist in a band. As an eight year old Scott was listening to Tears for Fears and Duran Duran and the shadows. His dad taught him some lead guitar, he loved surf pop music, and in early high school, Scott created a band with his mates. His interest in music just kept developing throughout high school. Scott wanted to get into the education system because he could see that it was broken and did not cater for all learners, and he wanted to be a force for change. He made a career of teaching and did so for many years, and Scott was the winner of an aria award in 2018, winning the Telstra music teacher award. Scott left his classroom teaching position in 2020 to begin a new adventure in sound. He works as a mentor in a not for profit organization that teaches transformative learning through creativity, enabling teachers to deliver music to their students. In addition to his day job, Scott's experimentation in sound has evolved to him running fortnightly sound baths in Mount Gambia, called frequency Friday is explored meditation, new instruments, including crystal bowls, and gongs. And this has triggered a new Sonic obsession for him. Today, we chat about the place that music and sound holds in our culture and society. A little bit about partner guilt and the way that Scott wanted to make a difference in the educational system. The music that you hear throughout this episode is from Scott on all the amazing instruments that he has collected in recent years. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you so much for coming in. Scott. It's a real pleasure to welcome me and good to get the other side's perspective on the special fallacy episode. Yeah, thanks for having me. Awesome. This is a very unique opportunity. Indeed, it's actually unique that you're in my studio, because I kept many people in my studio. I spend most of my most of my my time in studios. There's nothing like being in a creative space with the Lego guy. Like I was creative. I tried to keep some of it at least nice. But it just That's not me at all. I have to have stuff around me. Like, just sort of, if there was a creative office that was clean, I'd be worried. Yeah, you know, yeah, the fact that this isn't clean, it's just staffing, stuff everywhere. Yeah. And yet most studios are saying this stuff everywhere. So yeah, that's how, you know. I mean, if you could, you know, open a door to inside my brain. That's how my brain looks as well as the stuff everywhere. I think that's most creative people have an idea there. And then there's something else there. And and I need to get to do that. And yeah, yeah. I know. That's right. And then you get so hyper focused on something that you just like, oh, well, what was I thinking? Oh, I don't even know. And then, you know, yeah, it's like, everything else just doesn't exist. And you just, yeah, I've done that many times in here. I've been editing or doing something and then I've sort of lifted my head up and gone. Ah, what are we having fatigue? You know, you just get so fixated on something. Yeah, you do. You do? What are the children doing? Yeah, it's like, I've got 15 minutes before I need to do something. I just gotta go out to my studio just to look at something. And you know, and then you look at the time and you're like, Oh, my God, where did the time go? You know, I'm five minutes late now. Yeah. It was very important is very important. Yeah. Yeah. So tell our listeners, obviously I know what you do. But I'm seeking to tell me more about what you do button, your studio. What do you do in your studio? So my studio is like it's like a rehearsal space. For me a practice space, it's a administration place for my day job. It's it's just a it's an it's like the center of my existence. Really? Yeah, I love it. I love it. I love it so much. And it wasn't until I was a parent, did I feel that I needed one? Because I needed a space that that was separate from the world that I was, I was living, I guess, you know, so that I could just be there with be present with, you know, my brain and the creative force. And yeah, so otherwise, it would have just been, you know, up until that stage was just my bedroom. So, you know, because that was a space where there was no one else anyway. So. Yeah, so I think that's, that's probably, that's, that's my studio. Yeah, it's a, it's, it's a spot where it's a spot where I Yeah, where I escaped the world, and I'd be present with myself and, and whatever, whatever I feel, needs to needs to come out. So it's quite a it's quite an unstructured zone. Unless that unless things are unless there's a time when I've got a deadline coming up, then it can be quite a focus structured area, but a lot of the time, it's me researching, it's me experimenting. It's me, yeah. Finding coming down, you know, rabbit holes, and because I'm, like, I'm a, I love sound. So anything to do with sound is really excites me. And, you know, I think as a culture that we could have, we could have easily not built our culture around money and capitalism, but instead built it around sound. Ah, what a cotton said, I know. Like, honestly, this this thing of capitalism. I have been on this for the last probably half a dozen episodes with people all of a sudden it just came to the forefront. And we've been talking about how not just creating mothers but anyone who creates that doesn't receive a monetary renumeration from that, why are they less important to society as people who earn money from their creativity? Like it's just been this massive topic? And we might come into that after? Yeah, I mean, that is something that I've been worried about. Yeah, it's, well, it's, you know, like sound has been at the center of what we do. And there's a school of thought that believes that sound and music was how civilization civilizations formed. Because there was that need for a group mentality there was a need for ritual and there was a need for people to be joining in with whatever whatever it was, but sound was what brought them together. And you think about that pre language stuff as well as sound communication. So you know, anything about humans on the earth have been here for you know, for we don't even know how long but it's only in this last sort of snippet of humanity where, you know, we're pushing the cache and returning the world into a giant shopping mall. Yeah. Yep. I feel like we can talk more about the company. You said your day job do you? Are you still involved in teaching? Are we doing something? Yeah, I am. I'm, I work for an organization called Sovereign or non for profit organization come in Victoria. And I'm involved in a program called transformative learning through creativity. And my job is to mentor primary school teachers in To feel uncomfortable about teaching music in their day to day classrooms, so incorporating music into the into their work, and helping them plan for lessons and deliver and play games and all that sort of stuff with the that music focus. So that's what I get to do I work at five schools in the area. And I go out and work with these work with these amazing teachers, with their wonderful kids. And yes, it's a blast. It's, it's it. Yeah, it's a really, really cool. It's a great job. And it's one where I have a lot of, I have a lot of creative scope as well. No one really tells me what it is that I need to do. So everyone sort of trusts my my own intuition. Yeah, it's that goal to achieve. But it's up to you. How are you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And there are challenges that come with the job. But you know, the, that's the challenges that come with any job, but it's usually teach teachers that move, and that sort of thing. So the teachings are very transient sort of occupation for a lot of people, some people stay in the same spot for X amount of years. But a lot of people do move over a lot of contracts going around and that sort of stuff. So yeah, that's what I get to do during the day. And, yeah, yeah, it's a pretty cool gig. So is that like, so the teachers that are sort of teaching the students they don't, it's not sort of like a formal education in music, they don't have to have like training in musical theater. It's about just as the incorporating it in sort of, I mean, I used to work in childcare. So yeah, we put music in, I'm just comparing it to that, like, yeah, anytime someone was doing something, and a child paid attention to one particular thing, or whatever you did, I know, there'd be a song that went with that, you know, like, I had a friend that used to do this, every time you'd say something, she could break out into a song lyric, it's like, you just, you just go off, you're picking up something, or let's sing the song about picking up, you know, that sort of that sort of way. It's like making it part of just everyday life sort of thing. Maybe not to that extreme, but it's probably not to that extreme, but there's no reason why it couldn't be is to sell. You know, that's because that childcare settings, is that a little bit younger? There's just, I mean, I don't have I actually don't have all those songs in those skills, but we have songs for making circles. And, you know, we do do lots of songs in class, in class time, and that sort of thing, but not necessarily those. You know, like the alphabet song, you know, only because, probably, me, you know, I could get skilled up in that area myself. You know, we used to call it the Play School. So yeah, actually, if someone was building it, start saying, build him up build anything a child? Yeah, there's a song that goes with it. And what I found really interesting was that some educators were just so natural at it, like you could tell they just grew up like that, or were really comfortable with it. Other people would get that certain level of judgment about I can't sing properly, so I won't do it or, you know, that confidence, and they feel like they're being judged by other people, not by the children, because they love it. They know, it's right. What are you saying? No, that's a very interesting sort of reflection on people's, you know, yeah. Well, you know, I tend to think the way I look at it is that you know, and you're right, that the majority of people that I teach, so no, it's best, they don't have any formal music education. Because if you did, then you should be able to teach music, you know, but, so these are people that weren't pretty much not teaching music in in their classrooms, maybe doing a few songs or doing assembly pieces or lattes sort of thing, but not really understanding. You know, I mean, most teachers don't even they can read the music curriculum. They wouldn't have ever had a clue of what some of these things are, like, the the elements of music, you know, they might not know what tambor or texture or you know, even pitch, most of them know what rhythm rhythm are. But that's pretty. That's pretty important. But coming to what you're saying. I think that's a really interesting point. Because, you know, I think you think about the education system and you think, Well, you know, it wasn't the education system that created that well. So that was it that a lot of the time when we as adults think about the education system, you know, we sort of there's a lot of trauma involved in schooling. For for all of us, as adults, we can trace that back to when we were kids. And, you know, sometimes schools are better at telling us what we feel like we're not good at and what we are good at, say, I mean, that I think the education system as a whole has a lot to answer for that. Like, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty nuts. Yeah. And certainly in Scotts perfect world, we wouldn't be doing it the way we're doing it. So that was a nice to be that little. And that's why I got into education anyways, because I knew it was broken. And I'd like to be a crack in the system. And I feel like, you know, this job gives me the opportunity to be a little bit of a crack in the system, because, you know, the kids really look forward to me coming in, even if I'm not taking a lesson to teach might be taking them because they know, this fun stuffs gonna happen, you know, they know that they're gonna have a license to be creative. They know that there's no, no, they don't have to be frightened that they're gonna get something wrong. The only time that happens is if you're playing a game, and they might get out. But that's all it is. Yeah. And they're probably not even aware that they're learning so much through the process through what you're, you know, giving Yeah, I'm thinking that it's that they've been taught to know, well, that's what learning learning should be like. Yeah. And, you know, and being a musician, it's challenging. You know, it's challenging, you've got to, you know, and you know, this yourself, there's this, there's this part, this is Part in music, where you have to grind. And if you don't grind, you don't, you don't get any better. And it's that rote repetition, which, unfortunately, the, you know, there's a lot of schools of thought that don't even, you know, right is like a dirty word universities was when I went to uni, that's for sure. However, that's the way I learned. And prep, perfect practice makes. I was interesting. I'm a great speller. So yeah, I think, I also think that one of one of our problems with people being hard on themselves, it's a cultural thing. So you know, I lived up in the ipy lands, for for a couple of years. And culturally there, you sort of, you stand out if you if you don't sing, because songs or songs are part of their daily life. That's, you know, the stories are all told through song. Like, it has been fun, you know, 10s of 1000s of years. So it's ingrained in their culture. Whereas we have, you know, flip it over to, to us, our urban culture. And, and, you know, the game shows the X factors, the voice and all that sort of thing, then all of a sudden, you know, is everyone that sings being judged, you know, by, you know, by Guy Sebastian? Yeah. That's, I think that's part of where we've got to. Also. Yeah, also, I know, through experience that, you know, kids, like kids like to sing, but sometimes, they may annoy their parents. And it might be just natural for the parents to tell them, hey, you know, you sound like a dying dog or something like that, you know, and that might sound like a dying dog, too. But that can really pay detrimental to that, the psyche of that. So, a lot of the times, you know, I like to tell parents that if your kids, if your kid is learning music, and it sounds horrible, then that's probably good, because they're actually probably trying something that they've never done before. And the only way you can do it, you know, if their practice if they're a piano player, and they're practicing a piece and it sounds beautiful, then then not nothing's happening. They're rehearsing they're not practicing. Yeah, that's some of my best singers. You know, I've spoken to their parents and their parents will say that they make really silly noises a lot. And that's that's experimentation of, of the voice or whatever it is. You can do your voices. That's part of what my studio is still. I'm still experimenting, you know? 50 years old, and I haven't stopped since I was like, 11 years old. I haven't stopped at all. Maybe Maybe there will still be Hi yeah, that's a that's a good question. You know, when I look back, I think, you know, definitely had something to do with my father and seeing a picture of him in his early 20s playing guitar in a band, I still remember the photo. And you know, I listened to music, but there was no, there was no depth. I did like the I did like the hooky, sort of minor stuff, you know, I knew that I liked it, because it had an emotion, like an emotional draw for me, and I knew anything and then these, these these minor keys, and this was the, you know, going to the early 80s. Here, you know, as sort of about eight, you know, 19 ADLs, I would have been eight years old. So, heading towards probably 10. Nine and 10 had some, some pretty big songs out there. I can't even think I mean, I know I used to love. Everybody Wants to Rule the world, but it is, it is. I mean, I remember that when that came out. And that was that was one of those jarring things. My first album was Duran Duran. It was an EP The wild boys EP, I'm not sure if that was my first that was my first album. And my first cassette was seven in the record, Tiger. So Duran Duran, there you go. They had some big minor hooks. And I was right into that. But yeah, my dad taught me a couple of things on the guitar and taught me some shadows. So Apache, and the benches walked around, so bit of surf, sort of style instrumental stuff. So it was the lead guitar. And I just took it from there, I just just didn't stop at a couple of mates, we got together at that transition stage from year seven to year eight, was high school for us. And we played we had this little band going on, and yeah, and then just did not stop from there. So we played those songs and then just kept developing throughout high school. And, yeah, that's how, that's how it started. You know, I can't, I can't pinpoint a particular there been moments that have completely blown my mind. But, you know, it was big becoming invested in music. And by invested in music, I mean, that, you know, when we talk about the first album, or your first cassette, like that, no longer exists. Yeah. So and that was an investment because you needed money to start off with, and however, you got your money back in the day, whether it was pocket money, or, you know, pleading to your folks or whatever it was, you had to there was something you had to do. And then you had to physically, you know, I had to walk down to Kmart, which is a couple of days down the road, go go to the local record store, look through all the staff and say, this is the one that I'm going to buy, take home, and listen to. And that investment in music was was, you know, that's what you get. You're accountable to the music, then you sit there and you look at the artwork, and yeah, play the final say, yeah, that was that was how musics sort of I got involved in music. And yeah, just on that, do you think it diminishes the importance or the value we put on music because it's so accessible now? Yeah, yeah, I do. I definitely do. So there's, there's there's positives and negatives. And, you know, it's such an exciting time for independent artists to be able to release stuff and have it so accessible and available. The I mean, the music industry's it's cutthroat you know, it's intense. And you've got artists now being able to bypass the industry. Yeah, so that's, that's amazing. So for the artists, it's, it's probably pretty cool but on a cultural level, having having that access unprecedented access to music is? Well, it's going to it's going to affect the monetization of artists. Tell me, I know. Exactly. Ah, but yeah, yeah, you've got that. If it's, you know, it's just like saying, hey, if if our roads were made of of diamonds, how precious would they be on your fingers? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's, yeah, it's it's a it's an issue. It's an issue. Yeah, I can say like, I, as an independent musician, myself, like being able to release music is amazing. But then at the same time, you think, because there's so much there? It's just, you know, will it ever get listened to it? Or will anyone's ever get listened to unless you are within, you know, a big company that can provide stuff like there's just so much stuff out there? And I didn't realize. So, when I, when I did the ARIA stuff. Yes. Yeah. It was such an insight into industry that I'd never had before. And so you know, I remember I remember having a chat to this to this bloke outside outside the toilet at the areas. And he was asking me all about this staffing. I, this is at a this is sorry, at the areas I actually got presented the area at a what was the, what was it called? It was an industry meeting. So it was all the big it was all the CEOs of sonar, Warner, Music, Spotify, all that it was this, you know, huge thing Bob Geldof was there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, chatter was amazing. I said, thank you for all you've done for music. You know, he picked up the award he's going he's a very weighty you're, he's like, you get back to school, tell them all the award should be this heavy. Yeah. But anyway, I was chatting to this guy. And he was saying how, you know, he wished that he continued learning whatever instrument and now that sort of dawned on me that these people aren't musicians, you know, they're business people, and are speaking to another guy, we're sort of moving from one place to the other. And he was talking to me, and he said, Well, you know, congratulations, and all that we're hoping for our first aria for I forget which one it was, was like the big one, like, Song of the Year or something like that. And I'm like, ik you know, who, whose team you're part of, and this is a there was about nine business guys in suits. And so that was Amy sharks team. So who knows? And she actually ended up winning that, so they got it. But I don't even know what they do. What are these guys in suits, they are just like, well, this is that's how I know that this is. This is massive industry. Yeah. And there's something that happens there. I don't know. It's secret. Squirrel. Yeah. Doors, things going on. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that's, that's the type of thing that I'd be bad at this. See, that's the thing that I sort of think, on one hand, having, having all the music in the world possible on a platform and letting people decide what they want to listen to, is good, because it sort of cuts that control that the commercial radio stations have because the people make deals with the execs are you give us that much. And we'll play the song four times a day, you know, takes out that like, that's why I love community radio so much because the only stipulation they have is they've got to play. I think it's only 20 something percent Australian music apart from that they can do whatever they like, you know, there's not that nice deal sort of being made. So I've just taken the conversation. I love community radio. Yeah, I think that's it's literally what it is. It's, you know, everyday ordinary people sharing their love and their community and yeah, the people think it's awesome. Yeah, no, you're right. And, you know, and today we have access to community radio from Hundreds and 1000s of community writers Yes, we would be would be ensnared. Yeah. So such an interesting, interesting concept. But yeah, so music is freely available as as we want it. But yeah, the power the Pat, the the actual power of music gets lost within within its within its easy access. You know? So getting back to your area, can you share with us that story and how you got involved and what the award was, and that kind of stuff for people who might not be aware? Yeah, so the story goes, the, there was a couple of teachers at my school who wanted to put me up for a nomination. And so they asked the kids to write some type of thing for for me, and it was voluntary, you know, kids could do it if they thought that I deserved that, blah, blah, blah. So I ended up getting nominated for this for an aria Award, which, which was really, really amazing. Yeah, it was like, awesome. And then it was up to a community vote. So the community had to get behind it. And, you know, I thought, you know, how I was, like, how I had to develop the campaign, which really helped me in my you know, because you're obviously, you know, there's five teachers, everyone's, everyone's an amazing teacher, everyone deserves the ARIA, you know, it's a, it wasn't about that it was just, for me, it was a childhood dream. You know, ever since ever since I started playing in bands and knew about what the area was. I thought, wow, you know, I'd love to win that. And there's funny stories that actually go go there now. Because so, I'm rewind, and I'm a good musician, um, you know, possibly 23 years old playing in bands. And I see some people that I was sort of involved in scene nosing. Getting this aria award? Yeah. Because their band was the super Jesus. Oh, yeah. And I remember watching it that day, and thinking, Oh, wow, maybe have made some real decisions in my musical path. Because I was playing. I was playing surf punk at the time, but I come from, you know, thrash metal. Really high energy. Yeah. angry music. Yeah. Which was, which was, which was cool. And I loved and that's why I did it. And that was the moment where I thought, Oh, maybe I should look at something else. And that was a moment where I signed up to do the stat test for uni. Yeah. And that's how I got to university. And that's how I became a teacher. So, you know, fast forward 2020 years, 25 years, or whatever it was, and there it was in front of me, like a carrot on the stick. And I'm like, Oh, yes, this is a childhood dream. I'm gonna go for it. So what I did is I recorded, I've written this song on guitar, and it was a real flashy guitar thing. And because I thought, I thought to myself, I thought, how could I? How can I get people up? I am one of those people, you know, like, I don't like asking for money, like from people, you know, or your vote. Vote for me vote for me. Yeah. So I thought, how can I do this, which isn't, you know, so I thought, well, what can I give, you know, how can I give something? And so I had this guitar thing that was really, really intense. And so I was able to just chop it up into little snippets. And as I build a Facebook page called riff of the day, yeah. And every day, I post a little bit of a riff, and with a vote for me, don't forget to vote. Yeah. And that's, that's basically, it was pretty popular. There was and that's how, that's how it works. So, you know, and that's, you know, that's how, obviously, the people, the people of this community really got behind me, and that's how I won the Aria. So, you know, it was it was a vote of confidence from the community, which was very, very humbling. Yeah, extremely humbling. So and going to the IRS was just you know a dream come true. Now I've done it now walk that red car. I've done. You know, I can cross that off my bucket list. Do you want to drop some names? Who else do you talk to? There was George Shepherd from shepherd he was he was my buddy. But who was sitting next to somebody really fast? I don't either. We're not listening. We really offended Oh, they weren't getting an hour. But yeah, I don't I don't I just I didn't speak to that many people. Like I was a little bit I say humbled by by everything. Who else did I speak to? I don't know. Yeah. Cuz it was like, everyone wanted to speak to me. Like that key rule rule is like, this was an up and coming out of spec thing. It's like 15 years into care come up to me and shake my hand and rule. I think it's a rule came out. So he shook my hand. And it was like, you know, munching on some Cheetos as you do when you're 15. Right. And he's just won an hour here as well. And, you know, there was like, you know, Troy QSI. Daily, you know, chatting to him at the end of the night, but we weren't chatting. We're chatting about school drop offs. Funny, Murray wiggle. He's gold. So yeah. And all the like, it was easy to be involved in meeting all the wiggles who were all there. So but Mary's Marisa, you know, he's a great musician. Yeah. He, he looks after these lads called the DZ death rays. I think they are. Yeah. And same sort of thing. Right. Yeah. So it was it was a it was just an amazing experience. I was. I was in the I was in the elevator. Oh, I got to sign I got to sign these posters. And, you know, my name was on with all the other ARIA award winners. It was so weird signing, you know, they took me to this vector, which is little room up, stay stays in there. Like, you get a photo. And then, which is the official RFID. And then you sign this and they follow you around with, like beers and stuff like that. Other beer said another beer. Yeah, that's what the arrows are. Like, there's like, every, every five rows, there's an esky. Oh, wow. And it's got like water and beer and champagne, whatever it is in there. And they fill it up. Just like, Whoa, yeah, there you go. This is an insight inside that. I could only because I was gonna say, like, people, I think I remember seeing the footage of you getting like the mayor with your award. And so people were so appreciative because you're literally, you know, bringing the future of musicians to life, you know, you're giving them the passion. And, you know, there's the actual skills, but you know, that love of music, and that appreciation for it is, you know, what's going to, you know, bring on the next generation of performance. So, yeah, you know, I think that's, that's important. Like, and it's, it's, it's the, for me, it's the musical experience, you know, it's the experience that you have with music. So, you know, so anyone listening out there now, you know, if you want to feel that power of the experience of music, you know, think back to think back to when you were 16. And there's some songs you're listening to, like you can you can latch on to memories, that, you know, that have been a part of the soundtrack to your life. That's how important music is. You know, there's not too many people will say, Oh, well, I wasn't really listening to music when I was whatever you know, about that. 1617 is when we start to really sort of capturing but you know, music has been, you know, think about how you felt after the last concert. You've you went to a big concert. Last because how did you feel that? That feeling stays with you for days and days, and then forever? Yeah. As you'll always remember those because there's this shared experience and that's part of the power of music is that it gives us the the the the opportunity to have amazing shared experiences. It's this real energy exchange. So and I tell students well, I used to tell the older students this, but this happens when I teach music anyway, but you I'm on stage. And you know, the energy that you give to the audience comes straight back at you, you know, and it doesn't necessarily matter how many people are in that audience. But you know, you get that energy times, whatever times whatever is close to you, you know, I don't know what it's like to pay. And like a big stadium or anything like that I think the most people ever paid to was about 4000. That's pretty rad. But it wasn't, yeah, the energy exchange was a little bit disjointed, because it was a big stage was lifted up. And it's not quite like, you know, I remember playing and I remember playing at the Tivoli in the Thrash band, and there were literally people running off the bar and jumping into the crowd. And now, we're sort of, I had to play with my back turn to the audience, so I could just push them out a little bit. So give me Oh, I was so cool. Yeah. So and that's, you know, you're in the midst of that energy. Just Just amazing. That's the power of music, you know, you know, music gives us an opportunity to express that energy. And music is energy in itself with sound energy, you know, we just can't see it. But it's, oh, it's there. You're listening to the art of being a mom, my mom, I was. Interesting story, fast forward, just passed the area. And I'm starting to think, oh, what next? You know, I've achieved this massive goal, where am I going? I don't want to go backwards. I don't want to turn into Oh, that was that guy that that was that teacher who won that area. And now, you know, now he's just like a cobweb in the corner. So really made me start to think. And then there was all this all this friction in my workplace as well. And then and say, all that all that stuff. There was a lot of stuff going on. And, and it boils down to that I felt like, you know, the arts were being attacked for being too popular. You know, yeah, it was, it was lit, it was literally, literally, kids aren't handing up their English assignments on time, because they're too involved in your musicals. And it's just like, what, and that's when it that's, and so that started to weigh real heavily on my shoulders. And, and I just went down, down with stemmer, you know, into it into, like, you know, into a really sort of horrible mental position where I wasn't sure what, where I was going, what I was doing, how I was going to combat this. And through that, I ended up I ended up looking into altered states of consciousness and, and meditation, that sort of stuff. And then I came across all these meditation instruments, I didn't even know they existed. So I came across a crystal ball. So I work a lot with digital. In the past, I've worked a lot with digital sound. And there's a thing called a VST, which is literally a virtual instrument. And so I ended up I was looking at this virtual instrument, they had all these meditation instruments. And I'm like, Well, I've never heard of these things before. And then I found this crystal ball, and it's literally a frosted crystal ball, and bigger than your normal salad bowl, and shaped a little bit differently, but it has a tone, pure tone. And I thought, Okay, what's this and I, I listened to one and it just it's one. It's like a sine. It's like a natural sine wave. And I was listening to her and it just, it was still it did not move. It was it's oscillates with itself. Yeah. That that beautiful. And I was like, oh my goodness, what, what is it and I felt I felt amazing. It was like, I'd spent my entire musical career trying to be as fast as I possibly could then never, never stopped to savor what it could be like to be still with a musical note. And it just drew me in and from that moment, Ain't unlike us hooked Yeah, absolutely hooked and two crystal balls together creating whatever how many you want in a room is yeah, it's just outstanding, you know, for me, for me and everyone, everyone would react different because everyone you know musics unique experience and listening to sound as well as a unique experience. So, you know, the person next to you would experience that sound differently. Some people those crystal balls are really activating this seat in the middle of the head, you know? And some people find them you know, they might need to move or whatever. Yeah. So that's what that's what started this journey and then it was you know, gongs, gongs are the opposite gongs are like, like opening a doorway to, you know, a million cosmic frequencies at once. Yeah, it's just like, there's they're everywhere. And, you know, the idea about I found the idea of a sound bath. And I like, I just love the term. It is sound, isn't it? It's like you luxuriating in. I mean, I've always loved I've always loved baths, myself, and sitting back and contemplating life and so forth. But to think that you could do it in sound, I'm like going, is this I'm really excited about it. And I did an online course. And, you know, which was okay, but sort of showed me the ins and outs of of what it's all about, I guess, like the practicalities, the practicalities of it, and your uses for it, and so forth. And then yeah, I just went down that rabbit hole. And I've now managed to bring my guitar into that space. And now I'm starting to, you know, do the sound baths and it's so cool. It's so cool. Like it is. It's, it's like unbridled creativity, you know, you really just you, you have to have a plan. Like, you know, like, like my life. You know, the plan is just there. It's not like, it's not like, I'm gonna, something bad's gonna happen if I don't follow up. But the plan is there that that's the, that's the plan is planned. But be. Yeah, it's so, but yeah, once you once you're in that zone, it's, it's so cool. And you know, it's such an individual experience, it can take, you know, you can take one person on this fantastic imaginative journey through time and space. And for others, it can, you know, it can give them the space to release emotions or whatever they, they need to. So, there's certainly been a lot of that at at the sound bars as well. And like I say, to people, you know, I'm going to fill this room with sound frequency, you know, the sound frequency itself is pretty neutral. You know, it's, they're just their frequencies there sound frequencies, there's research on how they affect the body. But if you want to, you can release negative thoughts outwards, into those frequencies. Or, you can allow those frequency if you are really enjoying them, and then they're, you know, they're turning you on or whatever, you can just let that evening and, and, you know, really switch on, which is, you know, it's just, it's just amazing. And you know, we've, the thing is with, that's the way that I listen to music as well, you know, that's, you know, if there's something that I let in, I'll let it in, but if the sub A lot of the time, it's letting out. Yeah, particularly. Yeah, you know, when I particularly like, you know, young kid listening to thrash music, you know, pretty, pretty upset with the state of the world. And the inequalities of the world and getting out all that angst with, with heart hard, fast, heavy music was the same type of thing. Just now, now, everything's a little bit different. And yeah, it sounds pretty cool. But, you know, along the way, I've learned so much about sound. And, you know, sound is one of those. It's one of those things, it's like, yeah, it's like gravity. It's always there. You know, very rarely do you sit in silence. And if when you are in silence, I swear you can hear something anyway, this this just the sound that's always there. Yeah, listen, that's just my brain tinnitus. But you know what I mean? Like, it's just the sound was very rarely get solid solids yet like proper silence. Yeah. And yeah, sound is Saturday, we said the weird thing about sound this is. So sound needs the human ear to be to perceive it. It's like if a tree falls in the forest. Now, is it too soon to make a sound? You know? Yeah, like I said no, because I produced it produced sound waves. And but if there's nothing to receive the sound waves, then it doesn't make a sound. So it's gonna be relative isn't it is it is really interesting. I love that one. It's like, that's, yeah, it's pretty cool every thing that I've done it always everything always comes back to music, you know? And, yeah, yeah. It's a wonderful way to live your life isn't to have that sort of piano reflect on it like that? Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Yeah, it is. It is. And, you know, it's funny, because you always ask myself, what is it about music? You know, what do what do i What is it that I want to get out? But you know, and you know, the answer I always, always came up with even at since I was a kid is that I want people to feel the way I feel when I'm listening to music. I want as many people to feel that because such a good feeling. And, you know, and it just reminds me of that. That, you know, it's like, you're holding up, like, a mirror to the universe. So that it may know itself better. But so that's that, you know, that's, that's that style of thinking? That I think that for me, you know, music. That's That's what music is? It's pretty profound isn't it is. And you sort of think something was simplified at all, but something so simple? Like I said, it's with us all the time, every day. That it's so he has so much meaning. Yeah, well, music is simple. Like, you know, and this is the thing, this is what my my job is to try and tell teachers that think that they don't know anything about music, it's like, well, you know, you only think you don't know anything about music. Because a lot there's a lot of a lot of people have hijacked music and music education. And they want to make it smarter than what it needs to be they want to make it more academic than what it needs to be. Doesn't need to be academic at all. You know, you don't need academics in music, you know, but there are people that like to what's the word? Academic, non academic, academic, I want to do that to everything. And you can, it can break something, you make it so inaccessible. To make it accessible, and I know that I know that the education departments had trouble with that, you know, trying to make the try and make your subject because music can be more complicated than physics. Yeah, of course. How complicated Do you want to it? Yeah, you can make it as complicated as you are. And this never stops. It's like a fractal. It's, you know, and it's exciting the other way it can be as simple as a drumbeat going. Yeah. Yeah, it can be as complex as the most weirdest harmonies in combination with strange texture. B, you know, there's, it's endless. It is it is it's like Yeah, yeah, find the ocean. Yeah, we've only we've only explored what is it 5% of the ocean or something like that. It's the same. It's the same with music. So I didn't and now we're finding sound. You know, I was reading an article from Stanford University the other day where you know, they're using acoustic technology and sound technology to pack heart cells into places where they can't that's the only technology that they that they can use. Yeah, they're also using sound as a deterrent for malaria carrying mosquitoes they found that there's sound that I heard Yeah, we'll send frequencies and frequencies Yeah, well, they do they use for dogs for like making them stop barking frequency collars. We can't hear it. Yeah. As you get those big, I mean, you've got those big Sonic Weapons was actually about to say yeah, see that's breaky. It's sort of freaky, it's freaky. So but, you know, people, I think people need to understand that, you know, from my understanding of what those those things are, is they're just very fucking loud speakers. Yeah, right. And this so loud that they're they are extremely and they're very focused on like, point them. So, you know, that's how they're using them and so that, you know, they can point it at you and say, Hey, you get out of it, and it will be so annoying and loud that you move. Yeah, because there's nothing else you can do. I sort of the way I mentioned, I don't know, this sounds terrible. I'm sorry to be little war. But you know, when surprised would seem really high and the glass would shatter. That's how I was imagining that like, like, just send this this frequency through and, and things would just go just like, explode. Yeah. You know, there's nothing to say that doesn't, you know, they couldn't have that power is, you know, if you could do it if the sopranos could do it. Wow. But yeah, you know, there's, there's all types of research to say that, you know, if you think about, think about things having frequency, and if you think about harmonic resonance, so for those people who don't know how might resonance is, you can take a particular notes, say, let's say for example, my crystal balls are great. So I could record a crystal bowl, and I can then apply it and record it. And if I play that, recording back to that crystal ball, it'll start making its own sound because it is resonating with the frequencies in the room. It's, it's unreal, it's unreal. It's just, well, it's just like, if you have guitars, if you have guitars, in your in your and you play the sound of a string loud enough, the strings will start to resonate. So like if I had my singing bowl? Yeah, like dinged it. Another one, if it was the same, would start to go. Possibly, possibly. Yeah. It's probably because it's because of that. Because of the bowl, it probably needs a little bit more to get it right. Like if it was bigger, it would go but it's because it's small. And it's contained. Yeah. But it might, you should try it. But that's how money, let's get this harmonic resonance. Like that's a thing. Just got a cold shiver. We go. It's amazing. So if you think about that, and if you think about everything is frequency, so my god, so people, like things can literally communicate with each other in a way? Well, that's really interesting, because I was reading an article. I was reading an article the other day, who they're looking into research saying that actually, cells communicate with each other through sound waves. Because it's the fastest way to travel through. It's not like a sound that we can hear. Yeah, it's a vibration. Yeah. So but that vibration, create contains information. There's so much we don't know, there is so much we don't know. I mean, I, I know. And you know, me, I'm sure there's people out there that don't call bullshit. But like, we don't know, we just we don't like anything, you know? And, you know, so where do you think this is gonna take you like, you're on this, this amazing sort of journey of you could go anywhere. It's really, yeah, could I sort of feel I do feel a little bit lost at the moment. Like, I want to, like, I would love to turn this type of thing into my day job, this exploration of sound because there's probably nothing that really makes me feel like I'm serving my purpose, or being me then offering that sound stuff to people. But then to do that, there's that there's that part of having the other side which is the business sense and, and you know, and looking at that, that that is as in that is like the inner wellness industry space as well so that I'm not particularly good at like, you're good at the creating stuff, so I'm not not 100% Sure, you know, of Yeah, I don't know where it's gonna take me so I'm gonna let it take me wherever it's gonna take me because I know when I started with all this stuff that that felt like that felt like home. It's like, right here we go. You know? Like, I think I've been looking for something like that ever since I started playing. Playing music and you know it was looking for something you it, I've sort of feel like I've found it. Yeah, it's almost like you had to as a, as a beam as a person had to experience something that was really going to challenge you and push up against you, for you to, to make a switch, I suppose and go nuts. This isn't right. And to go into that, like, almost like you had to come to a head. Yeah, yeah. And I'm bringing my hands together, like, you know, something had been had to happen. Yep. For that shift to take place. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, at a deep, and then there was the highs. And then there was the lows. And then there was the piecing back together. With with, with a new, a new outlook, I guess. So that's, it's been it's been such an such an interesting journey. Up to this point. And yeah, like, I'm really interested to see, you know, how well this type of this type of thing is going to be received, like, in our community, at the moment is really positive. So you know, I can see I can see it a lot of space for growth. It's such an interesting thing, you know, coming from, you know, playing in punk bands and all that sort of stuff. You know, which I'd still do if, you know if if there were the right people. But having people rock out with some blankets and pillows and beanbags. You know, maybe something that cover the eyes, and lay down and listen to music, like really listen to music is phenomenal, just like that, that concept. I love it so much. I mean, it's great to go out to venue and go and see live music and feel that high energy stuff. But it's also great to go within and to feel, you know, it's high, low energy, high energy stuff as well. And then there's also some more calming sort of energies. That yeah, so it's so amazing. And so mind blowing. It's a it's a thing, but yeah, I'm not glad that you had to go through what you had to go through to get there. But I'm very glad that you got that. Yeah, I mean, yeah. You know, I'm a very much very much, you know, you're gonna philosophize about, you know, the good and evil in the world. And you're sort of saying, Well, okay, well, there, there's, there can only be evil, if there's good, and there can only be good if there's evil. Otherwise, there's no any of that stuff. So yeah, I think that's that, that is sort of that. Yeah. You touched on earlier about having your studio. You only needed it since you became a parent. Yeah. Tell us about your your four lovely boys. Yes, sir. Thank you. I mean, incredibly exciting place to be. Yeah. Yeah. So my four boys are very energetic. They are very, very inquisitive. And they are very physical. Yeah, as well. So they can all play music. But whether they'll go down the music path, is there no, no one's chosen that as their main thing yet. That's so how do you feel about that? Well, I don't know. Well, you know, the eldest of 15. So I didn't really start playing. And, like, seriously until I was 12. My 12 year old can play as good as I could when I was 12. But, you know, whether he chooses, you have to have that. I mean, I had my friends, my friends were playing so I played, you know, so whether he can manage us to surround himself with other people that are thinking the same, which is going to be pretty difficult in the current state of music. In in the mount it's just that seems to be we were at this really high about two or three years ago, and now and now. Something's dropped out. And, and musics really taken a backseat and there's a there's a few there's definitely a few people in it in the education scene here that sort of don't see the importance of music and have seen that just sort of slip out from under us, which is quite significant. But you know, I'm not gonna blame it on the schools. You know, it's just it's just We'd have a cultural thing happening. What the way I sort of equation if you've got a town of our size, how many 1000? What are we got? 35? Last time I'll do is 2525. Okay, I'm getting excited. And we don't, yes, that's yours. We don't have a music shop anymore. You know, that just to me shows that we're the level of importance that, you know, that we play we're placing on it, you can't even go in the shop and get your guitar really strong anymore. You know, it's, it's a tough one, that one, you know, knowing the ins and outs of that business. And business business is, you know, we're talking about capitalism earlier. I know that's, you know, you can't give, give money away or, you know, lose money and just keep being a charity. But I just thought how can we not have a music show? You know, just Yeah. Really, it was it was? Yeah, it was heartbreaking for me to I mean, I remember looking at the Facebook posts and thinking, you know, it was almost like, lost, lost somebody. Yeah. Yeah. Had that had that feel about it? And because, you know, to me, the importance of, you know, a place like that is is, is for community. Yeah, but I understand, I understand. I mean, I fully understand what happened and why, you know, they had to shut up and close, but who knows. But that's not so bad community. Like we'd always put out if we had a gig, we put our posters up in there. We had our, like, my albums with Assange there. I could bring the guys when I, whenever I had trouble with our PA, I'd be like, Michael, why can't I get it to turn on? You know, they were just they're not just think. You know? Yeah, it does makes me sad. I mean, at the end there are they're all like students of mine. Yeah. Right. And yeah. You know, I've also, you know, they're not the first students to, you know, work there. So it gave them a bit of a rite of passage. I know that likes because you said like to do work experience there. And that's, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a shame, but I feel I feel that, you know, there's 25,000 people here, but musics just not big enough to sustain that type of thing. You know, but it's all goes back to how much importance do we want to put on music? You know, so, you know, with, with my boys, I know, I know, it's not right, to force anything onto them, because it's nothing forced onto them by Daddy's going to be cool. Not once they like once they hit the teenage years. Yeah. So they played in a band when they were like, in year five. They did like a talent show and are really, really good. Did you watch it? Yeah, they're very good. To me when I watched I don't know if it was just like a proud parent thing. But they made it look so bloody effortless. I must say your your kids doing things? Like very natural. And like, No one. No one was there when I worked with them for, you know, maybe five weekends in a row of working on this Boulevard of Broken Dreams, whatever. Some yeah, there's Boulevard of Broken Dreams, I think it was and put the staff that like the the work and effort that went into making that look like that was huge. You know, it wasn't that that was this easy thing. It was it was difficult. There was a lot of that when we're talking before about, you know, grit, there was a lot of grit. And that was really tired, grumpy children at the end of those sessions. So, you know, I'm hoping that I didn't ruin the experience for music because they didn't get to perform and yeah, but they didn't win. Say they won. But yeah, I think they made it look so easy that it just like, Oh, these guys. They're good. But so yeah, that's it's interesting. But, you know, with anything with with kids, you've got to let them find find it themselves and find that passion rather than live out. Your passion, you know, that lands on last thing. I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be that parent that is living through their children. I don't want to be that person. So they can, they can do whatever they they like and do they listen to you like and value what you tell them? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I try until you know, Alex plays the bagpipes, right? Oh, yeah. And I think he chose that because neither Ben or I have any experience. Yeah. We kept doing this for years. I'd be like, Oh, do you want to play? You know, play the piano, and then be like, join play guitar? Nah, I don't want to do that. Now all of a sudden popped up the bagpipes. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's funny because um, You know, I've spent a fair bit of time with with the kids lately, due to COVID. And due to, we went to went to Melbourne, the other the other week, just me and the boys drive up in the morning and drove back in the evening. And it's funny, you know, when I'm with them, the conversations that we have can be quite intense, like, the other day, we were driving a football, and the conversation was about how everything came to be, you know, it was that deep. Yeah, it was, you know, okay, so science says there was a big bang, what was before the Big Bang? That's that type those types of questions. Yeah. You know, and that's the type of, I love having those conversations with the kids the whole big, expansive, mysterious, inquisitive style of conversations where we sort of just riff over things. You know, I was having having a chat to one of the elders the other day, and he was talking about and, you know, he gets through that stage where, I mean, schools always push your career path, and what do you want to be and all this sort of stuff. And he was sort of riffing riffing on that. And I said to him, do you want to do you don't want to? Because he's going to be say, said, like, you know, what? Would you rather? Would you rather me be a millionaire? Or would you rather, and be like an asshole? Or would you rather me be the guy that people come up and shake their hand says back now he's a good bloke? And I said, Well, I can't say is that clear? Cap? Yeah, you know, I can say that. You should think about, you know, what you want to do in the world by asking yourself? What type of contribution can you make to humanity? And if you can answer that question, then that's going to put you on the right path to where you want to go. Because that's sort of you know, that's what it's all about. You know, so you could, you can become a millionaire doing that, or you can become a millionaire, being self centered and thinking, it's all about me, and just wanting to climb the ladder and step on whoever I need to decline that letter, wherever I'm going, you know. But at the end of the day, you know, you got to be happy with who you are, and, and what you're doing in the world. So, yeah, they listen to that side. That's a lot. I love that sort of stuff. They may not listen to me when I say you dirty, go and have shower, please. Yeah, it's time for bed. Or we just said he's ready. You know, they might not listen as much, but they certainly listened to those big questions, but they don't. They go off and they ponder, yeah, that sort of thing. And so I'm really impressed that particularly they do that. So that's, that's really good. And, you know, even my youngest, we talk about all different types of things. He's, he's, he's into wondrous things. So you know, if there's a great sunset, I'll call him out or so we're gonna go and have a look at it. We've been what we've been looking at how, you know, I mean, I can't because, I mean, the weather's shitty, but it's rainbow season. Yeah, you know, and been looking at the angle of the eyes compared to wherever the rain might be to the sun. You can you can predict where these rainbows are gonna come and then you can see them before they even arrive. Yeah, and we've been, you know, get excited. Over there. Is that is that is that going to turn into a rainbow? Yeah, is if you can, that's that's pretty cool. So I love doing that type of thing. You know, there's really really sporty so they're, they're very focused on sport. And I think you know, my wife's very, very that was her type of upbringing as well country sport. Where I was city kid, so I was into music and then hanging out with my mates and being hoodlums. There's plenty of that going on in the country. Yeah, there is there is bad The twins have got a year before they get a license. So yeah. I'll have I'll have less to worry about if they're more like their mother. stories with you from Ben. Yeah, So is it important to you that your boys see you as more than I don't say just dad, because, you know, you're not just you do a lot of other things is important that your children say that do you feel? I think I think if we talk about, I think if we talk about contributing to society, if there's one thing that I would like them to do is to, you know, contribute to helping others. Your positive. So, that's something that's important that they see me being that, that positive change that you want from other people, you know, and doing all those those things that, you know, that you put in being like a helpful client, you know, all that sort of thing. That's important to me, they see that and they take that bet on all those positive aspects to life, I guess, not worried about, you know, often think about, you know, winning in our head is that, how does that how does that how does that impact the kids, you know, they streamed it live in their classroom and all that sort of stuff. You know, because I don't put much emphasis on on awards, you know, for them, and grades and that sort of thing, because it's not really about that. But there I am winning this big award. Yeah. How does that how does that how does that factor in NSO competitive? So I don't have the answer to that. But it is something that I have thought about, like, ah, yeah, wow. I wonder how that's going to impact them. But I guess also, if they see how you deal with that, too, like, they don't see you wandering around the streets going, Hey, look at my art, you know, what I mean? Like that you can achieve something and receive something and be rewarded for your work, but not make a, you know, a song and dance about us? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we have the odd conversation about how like, it's the best qualification ever. Looks good. I thought I can I can, I can literally argue to anyone about music now. What do you have in our particularly music education? Yeah, there's all these people that are way more trained than I am in music, education. They don't have an art. Here we are saying how modest I am. So always a joke. And it's always it's always it's always good fun. So, yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's important. You know, I want them to be I want them to be good people. And, yeah, I want to, yeah, I want them to make positive contributions, I think, you know, it's, it scares me that the world is so messed up. And that they, they are going into, they're going to grow up into a world that needs action. We've all we've all the, you know, all the crappy things that has been done to it. And, you know, it's still being done to it, you know, so, I'd love for them to be part of the solution of whatever that is. And I don't think shooting off to Mars is the solution. But yeah, but they're the types of things like humanity actually needs to look after each other and, you know, get back to relationships and don't get political. But, you know, we vote reverse voting in the Labour government and labor is for the people. I think there's this big change about, you know, looking after each other, you know, social housing and looking after elderly and childcare and like, just getting back to basics. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And, you know, there's a Yeah, yeah, there's a and there are a lot of there are just a lot of systems that, that aren't working, you know, in our society. And I think they need I think they, there's a lot of systems that need overhauls and they need to read they need rethinking? Yeah. So, you know, there's, there's so many, and, you know, if we, if we went into that mindset, you know, if of of looking after each other and humanity and relationships and not perpetuate the classes, which, you know, I believe that schools will perpetuate classes, you know, these people are going to go off and have these topics Little jobs in the majority of you probably the in the middle here, and then some of you fail and be down the bottom. And, you know, you'd be delegated to not having a job or having really low wage or whatever it is, you know, we can patch right that in the school, there's no need to do that, if we focused on relationships, and we were looking after each other, and that would be less likely to happen. Yeah, that's, that's pretty scary. That, you know, that that's literally meant probably begins before, but that's, you know, where people learn how to treat each other, and how, where they're going to be in the world. And that's a difficult thing to shake. If someone already thinks that they're wherever, you're not going to change from that. Yeah, I mean, any of us can think back to school. And, you know, like, once it's over, you've only got those, those bits and pieces that stick with you, you know, the rest of it sort of just falls away, you know, didn't matter. You know, it didn't matter. It didn't matter who was popular. It didn't matter what you learnt in geography, you know, but what mattered was how you felt. And that's what sticks with you. So oh, shoot at school. So did you have a good time? I feel good, right? Yeah, yeah. I failed. I did school at the end of year 11. First time, I went back and did the 12. But anyway, did shoot. I found music and they, they found easy. They should be telling people Yeah. Well, it's important to know, no, it's actually important. Because, like, if I had thought that, oh, my god, I gotta do music. I must be crap. If I had thought that, then I wouldn't have the life. You know, I just had the foresight to know that I was actually good at music, but I just didn't want to do what they wanted me to do. You know, I didn't. I wasn't interested in theory, because that's not what that's not what was, I was inquisitive about. I was inquisitive about the skill set. And I was inquisitive about how I could get better at playing my instrument. That's all I wanted to know. Yeah. And, you know, and I was a guitar player, so that that theory, stuff didn't have didn't bounce off me very well. And it was taught like shit, oh, my God. You know, theories theory is not very boring at all. But the teachers continue to teach it in such a boring fashion. It's actually really exciting theory is really musical theory is really, really exciting. But it's, it's, it's very, you know, you've got special teachers out there that can do it beautifully. But that's not how I was taught. So I just didn't listen and probably didn't go to class and that sort of thing. So that's how that's how it is, you know, so it was one of the, like I said, it's one of the reasons why I became a teacher to be because, like, I knew something had to be wrong with music, or I'm sorry, something had to be wrong. We let go because I was, I knew I was good at music. There was I wouldn't listen to my English class because I was too busy looking at the glossy pages of guitar magazine then again, same music and like, yeah, I just knew that that that wasn't me. That that was the system. Yeah, I was. Yeah, yeah. And I was just ready to give the whole world the middle finger then. And, and I didn't went up and got an apprenticeship and yeah, it just took me a little while to get back to I just need to spend my days you know, doing stuff and dreaming about songs. Yeah. So yeah, I drink Oh my God, when I get home, I'm gonna I'm gonna write this song. It's been in my head all day. But I wouldn't do it. But it was it was in my head. Yeah, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom. I also name and so when I talk to my moms on this show, we talk about this thing called mum guilt. So this idea that mums should exist for their children, and if they do something for themselves, they should feel guilty about that or they should feel bad if they don't think do things right and bring that in air quotes based on you know, society's expectations of what a mum should be when management. And I've been like asking deaths then. Do you have a Thoughts On a thing? Is there a thing of dead guilt? Do you experience those sort of emotions of You know, the pressure is on you as a dad, to whatever roles in your family, you've got to fulfill that. And if you don't, you know, how does it make you feel? Is that something that you've sort of never encountered? Um so I would say that I've never encountered dad guilt. But I've definitely encountered husband guilt. You know, it's a I know, I know, my wife is relentless in what she does around the house. You particularly washing is huge, because yeah, it was it was a big family. It's just It's endless cycle and you live in Mount Gambier, and there's no way to dry it and that sort of thing. So there's always washing hanging from the wherever, yeah, it's like a cave of washing all the time. So you know, there are times there are times where, you know, I think, oh, maybe I should pitch in there a little bit more, and that sort of thing. So that's it. But not as a parent, there's nothing, there's no, there's no, I don't feel, you know, I think I do as much as I can say, and then when I do as much as I can, as much as I think I can, that's probably a better way to explain it. So then I don't feel guilty when I'm out doing my own thing. Yeah. And also know that the important that like, see, it's a you know, you have to sacrifice your time, every now and then to do things for yourself, and you have to sacrifice time to do things for your kids. And, you know, time time is. Okay, and you're gonna get to this because you posted a really interesting post today about time or Yeah. Well, that's the time is three, but how do you spend it? Yeah. And then, and then, yeah, you talking about the quote that I posted? Yeah. Like it read that book. Yeah, the time is precious. Yes. Yeah. It's pretty cool. I love the quote from that book of the, the, the, the Emerald Tablets, and, and, you know, it's like, time does not move. But yet we move through time. It's like, whoa, that's pretty cool. You know, and, you know, we exist as events in time, our consciousness exists it as events in time. But yet, all time is at once. It's about Yeah, so it's, it's such a mind blowing time is mind blowing. And which is, this is the thing. So, you know, when we talk about music, and we talk about rhythm. So rhythm is just fractions of time divided. Okay. And then if we keep going, and we keep dividing and dividing and dividing, dividing, divided by the value, that we get pitch, and then pitch and how fast how fast, you do want to play with the sound waves, because you know, and it's like, and then you keep going, going, going, going, going, you'll get light. And so, you know, so that's, that's the thing, because quantum physics, this is a thing, like when we talk about light frequency, you know, we talk about sound frequency, we're talking about how fast things are vibrating. And, you know, so it's, that's pretty, pretty interesting. I love that sort of stuff is so cool spins. Yeah. I mean, and, you know, part of the reason why I've reposted that is is, you know, something that we really have to be mindful of, and I have to remind myself all the time, is the amount of distractions. You know, it's like, it's like, we almost live in a society that is just distractions, everything's a distraction. So you would have be, whether it be on TV or on your phone, definitely the Doom scrolling is a distraction, but it's not just the phones, it's, it's like, it's, it could be it's your job, it's whatever it is distracting you from me, you know, distract me from being present. And we're coming back to the relationship stuff before just being present with you know, and we're all guilty of, of being distracted while while a loved one wanted us. And, you know, we were so into it, we're into a rabbit hole. We're like, well, hang on, don't interrupt me because I'm so into this distraction. So, you know, I've been thinking about distractions a lot and being present and you know, and that fact that you can't, you know, you can't get you can't get that back. You can't get that time that being present with somebody. If you're fully there with somebody and you know who Oh, that person is, you know, you can, you know, that moment is going to be as precious as I said we're going to be. But if you're distracted, then you know, that moment. There's lost. Yeah. So and that's it and that you can't get that target time back. Yeah. Yeah, you can't get it back. It's gone. So, but you can be there with it when it's happening. And that's a that's a, that's such a, you know. That's they, that's what they should be teaching in schools. But instead, instead of my kid came home the other day, and he goes, Dad, that I learned something that at school, I'm like, Oh, what do you learn? He goes, if I have my left hand in my hoodie, I can actually be on my phone in the middle of the class and the teacher. Right? It was Yeah. And misaligned even sees and I'm like, Wow, you did learn something today. You know, it's like, yeah. So But isn't it great that I that now you're literally in the trenches? Now you're teaching the teacher? I'm gonna say teaching the teachers, you're sharing your experience with it? Yeah. Yeah. And allowing that to change it from the inside. Yeah, it's the ultimate sort of Gotcha. Isn't it? Like, haha, I'm right here now. Yeah, doing this, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it was, it's, it's, it's, you know, we talk about, you talk about imagination. And if you, I was reading, I heard quote, the other day of something he was about, you know, if you're imagining something, you're literally bringing it into existence. So it's like a movie for the premiere of a movie. So just like that ARIA thing came into existence, you know, me being a crack in the system, sort of manifested over time, because that was where, you know, your life had some intellect. So if you have positive thoughts about about where the future could be, you know, then most more than likely, you're gonna end up, you know, in that in that scenario, some one way or another. Yeah, it just seems to be like that. But if you're if you're always, you know, negative, and you have that negative, and I was like, Oh, my God, I'm not gonna have anything after this finishes and blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's the type of thing you sort of manifest and then all of a sudden, you don't have anything. Yeah, you make your reality happen. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy. It is in positive ending, it is. You know? And, yeah, so yeah, that's, that's the way it is, there's always there's always someone that's going to have an easier path. There's always someone that's going to have a tougher path. Yeah, I'm going back to when you had to have the twins? And how did your sort of concept of yourself your own identity change when you became a dad? When I think back to those hazy times, it is a bit of a haze. We don't know what it was like to have one kid. So you know, it was always too. And. And, you know, it was just asking about Gambia, so there was no, there was no real like family network that was able to be here. So it was very tiring. And it was very, I don't think the concept of myself changed at all. One thing that I wasn't ready for is like, when my wife was pregnant. I remember. I mean, at first, the first looking after looking after this, this unborn baby here, scared that something was going to happen, you're scared that, you know, eat the wrong food, or whatever it was. We actually got a phone call from the doctor 20 weeks into the pregnancy, and it was something's something's happening this, we've got some results that are that don't look very, very promising. That's like the chromosome test. And so we had this conversation about, you know, what, what would happen if if this was the case, you know, and so and it was, it was quite foreign. But we hadn't had a ultrasound yet. And so when we went to the doctor, put on the ultrasound, and he goes, Well, you went for an amniocentesis that needle thing. And the doctor goes, well, here's your baby's heartbeat. It goes on. See this thing? Here's your other baby's heartbeat and he was gone. Oh my God, we've just gone from thinking something's wrong with the baby to we're having another baby. So it was in May. It was that was a roller coaster. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, really exciting. hugely exciting. I mean, I was excited to have twins. But me as a person It didn't change. I felt, I felt great because, you know, because I felt like me. I didn't feel any pressure to be a different person. I was already a teacher, so I had that experience with older kids. You know, I wasn't much of a colicky sort of guy, you know, sort of like the girls had a baby or something like that. I'd be like, Yeah, I can keep the baby. I still am that guy. I'm still around, you know. But yeah, it was different when when are my own? So you know, I guess you just have so much love for the kids that. I mean, yeah. So it was probably wasn't a thing. My identity probably wasn't much of a thing to me at that time. And that it was just his head down. You know, it was go, it was because it was go all the time. And there was no time to do anything else. But do parenting. Yeah, really. In that time there was work. And then there was parenting. And there's probably a little bit of sport that went on as well. And so there was a lot of juggling between my wife and I and all that stuff. But yeah, I think I remained reasonably intact. I still saw myself as an immature young boy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It probably wasn't until I turned 50. Where I've gone might not be that little immature like 16 year old that you've always thought you'd been even in your 40s. Again, time it's a it's an interesting concept. Like, you just think I don't feel any different to how I've always felt my whole life. But I look different. People think you'd be different because you're getting older, but you just feel exactly the same. Yeah, it's such a weird thing. Yeah, it's yeah, it's still that same inside of your consciousness, you still that same person that you were, you know, you read my report, remember, read my report, when I was in primary school, still, they still that kid, probably distract the class less. You know, I still got the if I'm in a big crowd that when we have in front of someone who is trying to do something, you know, still feel the urge to distract people because I'm distracted. You know, I talked about distractions before, but my brain is distracted all the time. With whatever. Yes, yeah. Yeah. So when did you then we were able to point to things to sort of sit down with the boys and you're able to get back into your music. So what happened was it was being organic, really. I was just thinking, what? When was it that happened? So the what happened was, it was the first time where as for sort of, we'd bought a house, we bought a cheap house was getting a pretty good wage. And I remember buying a guitar. As a first it was a guitar that I wanted ever since I was a kid. And I had the money to buy it. And it was all systems go and bang, I bought it. That really sparked my, my interest. And then what I did was, as soon as, as soon as that comes back to you, you know, after you've had your head down for so long, and the kids were still, you know, that one, the red one then, and maybe a little bit younger. But you know, but the first six months is head down and get, you know, you're doing literally everything for kids. Yeah, everything except for breathing. Yeah. And I ended up enrolling in this online course at Berklee School of Music, which is orchestrating for film and TV. And that's where I did all my theory chops and all my orchestration skills and everything like that. And I found that, you know, in in looking back on that, that kitten that certainly kept me grounded through that period of parenting with music connected with music, and ended up landing me the job because then I had some sort of qualification behind me. That wasn't just education based. So, you know, that was sort of worked in really beautifully. And then we only had two years before we got the next one. So you know, and then it was head down again. And, you know, I don't remember, like the specifics of that time. I've kept a journal of that sort of stuff. And so, you know, you can look back at those times. I know looking at the videos that our house is trashed, like, you know, as soon as, you know what we had for under four under four, definitely for under five anyway, the house, you know, and my kids always doing shows and, you know, show means that you have to have a Stage and Stage means you have to have every blanket in the house draped over chairs, and you have to buy the tickets and all that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's a theatrical production. That's right. It's funny, it's funny, but it's and all the toys and you just get toys. And then they have a birthday and you get more toys. And they're like, you know, so. I know, when we had that first lockdown. Last, we decided that we tried to start to declutter, and so we had so much stuff that so much stuff. Oh, my God, particularly, particularly out toys and stuff like, that the kids really didn't really play with. There's a few toys they played with. But you know, there were there were definitely like cardboard box kids. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's something that's. Yeah, that said, you know, we talk about capitalism and consumerism. And at the end of the day, all they needed was a cardboard box. It's the old joke, isn't it? Like you give the kid for the Christmas present. And I play with the wrapping bag. Like, it's just like, the whole thing just frustrates me. I was on the airplane come back from LA the other day, and I was thinking, how did it all start? Like, how did it actually start? That that became important? And then what role is advertising played in, in that to get inside people's minds and make people think they need to have this and they have to have this? And you know, I love madmen. That's one of my favorite TV shows. Okay. Some, it's based in the 50s. In the 60s, in New York City, it's an ad agency. And like, you sort of think, when you watch it, I don't know how much of its true. But you think, well, that's why we all want such and such because somebody told us we, you know, I just, I, I wish I would understand more about it. Like, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's super powerful psychology, you know? Yeah. And it's all it's all to make make people money. You know, that's, that's what it is. It's about, you know, who wins, wins, wins the most whatever, you know, but, you know, it goes that I don't know how we got how we got there, you know, you know, it's a, it's a strange thing, you can have everything you want, without having that. But, you know, I heard a good story about that the other day, you guys can't put it into context of something about this guy's fishermen. And you know, he did official day, and get all this beautiful fish and take 100 His wife and make love to his wife and his beautiful, beautiful life. And one day, this other, this other person comes along and says, Well, why don't you? Why don't you fish like this. So you can then sell, you take some of the fish, and then you can sell some of the fish. And with that money you buy given so you buy a bigger boat, and then you can do more more fishing and get more efficient, and you can buy fleet of boats, and then you know, and the guy will go, okay, and then what would I do? Yeah, you know, then you can franchise it out. And you can, you know, have an international cooperation, you want to learn what I do? Yeah. But at the end of the day, you know, he already he goes, Why would I want to do that already? Has every you know, because yeah, then what would you do? Well, you can have everything you want, because I've already got everything I want. And that's that type of thing. Yeah. Where we don't think like that, as a society. You know, there's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of pressure to be thinking about, and schools do it. So let's do it right at the beginning, what are you going to be when you grow up? Yeah, you know, yeah, it's like, and the answer is, well, I'm going to be me, when I grow up. That's true. That's what I'm going to be I'm going to be me, you know, I'm not defined by what I do. You know, I'm not defined by I'm not defined by, you know, being working in a cafe or that doesn't define me, you know, not even being on stage defines me. I'm just me. You know, there's just trying to put my best self forward to the world and you know, that's, that's not what we teach. We teach, you know, you've got to get this job. If you don't do this, then your options are. Oh, you know, it's like, what complete bullshit. Actually, your options are. What Yeah, whatever you want to make them to be like and Your options can be anything you want to have to school. So that's why I keep telling Alex, like, he's at that point now, like choosing subjects for what you want to be when you grow up. And I just keep reminding him that I found the best job I'd had. Up until recently, only nine years ago. And about three months ago, I found the best job that I've ever had in my life. You know, like, you just cannot expect someone to know at that point in their life, anything about the job they're going to do? Because they haven't been in the world and experience things and seeing what they might like or might not like, yeah, how can you? How can it's all this towards this end goal? I can't, like have these experiences as they're going through, you know, each day be? What are we going to do today? That's going to be great, rather than let's look 30 years in the future and see what's gonna happen there. And you miss out on all this? What's in front of you? Yeah, yeah, that's right. And, you know, the subject selection in my eyes should be about whatever makes you happy. You know, what, what you think you can be, you have the most fun or that sort of stuff. You know, not because all your mates are doing it. But you know, kids want to do that they want to do something, because they might spend that not might not be the best thing for them to do. Not not not in every circumstance. And I my children would literally choose something because they might so doing it. But I'd rather than that I'd rather than go or what is my interests? Yeah. Where does that lie? Like, who cares about if it's going to lead to whatever, because you can do that later anyway? No, it's not. Nothing's finite. Oh, that's it isn't? Yeah. And that's what I did. You know, I 24 years old, or whatever I was did the stat test. So instead of slugging over a year of year 12, I did a two and a half hour test. And you want to know, yeah, I'm a teacher. Yeah. Got a degree? Yeah. Yeah. Now that's like, yeah, I say now, it's just he was saying, What do you want me to do when I grow up? And I'll say the same thing, like, whatever makes you happy, you know, been to financial planner. So he brings that other side of all, we have to have enough my live on? Yes. One that I know that. But you still have to enjoy yourself every day. You know, you have you actually have to have a reason to get out of bed and think What am I going to do today? That's, you know, contribute to the world? And I don't know. Yeah, well, that means I. Yeah, that's, uh, yeah, putting through and that's that thing about being an artist, you know, I'd love to be an artist, but I can't put the food on the table, the practicalities of you have mouths to feed. You know, I could do it. I could, you know, I'd be quite happy living out of like, a tiny house and off grid or whatever, just to start and just doing sound and stuff like that. But you know, when you have responsibilities, responsibilities, when they all move out? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I've kind of finished asking the main questions aren't cool. Do you have anything else you wanted to share? around this topic? That's sort of on your mind. Oh, we've been quite we've talked about life universe and everything. We have covered a lot. Yeah. I mean, it's probably important to it's probably important to note that you know, the partnership I have with with my wife is that she's, she's, she's not creative, you know, she's practical. And and that sort of makes for a you know, this stability in particularly in my sort of crazy stinking start type of thing so that's probably something that's that's worth that's worth mentioning that that sort of made it work may will gave me the the license to be creative as well. To know that that practical side of things getting looked after and you know, finances and all that little that type of thing so that's probably something that's that's helped a lot throughout the throughout the child rearing years as well and having you know, and also she's really good at this because the full boys there's so much stuff on and someone's got to be here and someone's got to be Oh, yeah, yeah. And and there's and there's excursion on this day, and then there's a carnival over here and then there's we have to go away for six hours or whatever it is all those types of things. You know, she manages all of that. I don't really want I'd just you know, it's literally Ah, you What's going what's happening? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's been an important thing that's allowed me that's, that's, you know, I'm grateful that that's allowed me to have that. That license to think think out in the clouds and out in the cosmos wherever my brain goes while I'm trying to think of new ways to explore sound and music. So, yeah. Good on it. It to me it takes a team doesn't it? Like it's you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, it would, you know, it's obviously much. I mean, it has its challenges as well. So you got to gotta acknowledge that it's, you know, that takes work. And it's not just something that sort of is something you just breeze through. Yeah. Conversation certainly change from talking about stuff to talking about children. Yeah. And yeah, that's it. And then you just go to sleep because it's stuffed Yeah. Plenty of times now where sleep before? Tick, they're older children. Yeah. And, you know, they're not too bad though. They're, they're pretty good at getting themselves to sleep. But they say teenagers have a completely different body clock. Yeah, they do. They designed. They're designed to, they're designed to and this is, again, you know, this SSID is strange. But yeah, teenagers are designed to get up later and go to go to sleep later and get up later. Yeah, that's what they're there's Cayden rhythms. That's what they're designed to do. Who knows what that's for? I don't know what that's for. I read any research. This is the thing, right? Like, this is the I was reading about this the other week. Because same thing, Alex is up, I go to bed, and he's up for like, 14, it was up to me. And it's like, what special pair I have these kids got that were stifling, because we're making them get up and go to school at eight in the morning. Yeah. What are they supposed to be doing with this? Well, you know, if you think about the way I like to think about these things, is that, you know, if humans have been around for like, who knows? Like, I'm gonna just pull out 100,000 years, you know, we've spent the last, you know, say 90 90,000 years in this evolving as humans like, that tribal sort of situation. And what were they what were the what were teenagers? Doing? Yeah. What is their role late at night, up until about 12 o'clock, when someone else might have taken over from whatever they were doing? Yeah, keeping the community doing something. Who knows? I'm just guessing, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And then we've just gone shook. Yeah, yeah. Everything we have. And we've, we've, we've, it's good. The cookie cutter, you know? And, you know, but it's funny, because, you know, we look, you look back to Pink Floyd the wall. And that's what that was all about, you know, and we're still I mean, we wrote a musical about Mark back, we wrote a musical about that, you know, and we wrote a musical about, you know, music had been ousted in society. And if you were caught playing music you'd be asked to do to wastelands. And, you know, and that all came from the psychological damage that this the leader of the community had as a child. Right. And that's pretty deep in US. Classic. It's classic. Yeah. It was, it was it was a classic show will well, quite intense about, about the system and the education system. And, you know, and the way that sometimes it gives, it also gives people interesting positions of power as well. And they might not always be the right person for that particular role that they're doing. And, you know, and everyone, everyone listening would have had that experience in schools, you know, whether, you know, whether it was a teacher, or somebody else but someone that was just abusing their, their power. And that's another interesting thing about because they're the school models in the world where the kids actually choose Is the employment that happens that that the school including the principal and everything that yeah, Sudbury schools? Yeah. And they don't have to study anything. They can spend their time playing video games if they choose where are the sky? And I don't know if there are any in Australia or not say, wow, there's interviews with schools and so some kids are works and doesn't work for all kids. But yeah, see, that's the thing isn't nothing's going to because there's not a one size fits. It's not a one size fits all. Yeah, well, you know, yeah, like, yeah, yeah. So So were you able to use your platform as like, writing these musicals to, to sort of I don't want to say we're putting ideas into children's head, but you were you were getting your ideas across of your thoughts of the schooling system and challenging and perhaps getting the kids to think about things a bit differently? Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. Probably didn't think of it like that. But yeah. You know, that. What are we going to tell the kids? No, we wanted. So what we wanted, what we really wanted, when we did our musicals was that we wanted to, because I was sick of seeing these musicals that were meant for adults, you know, they were and you just see kids playing out our roles. And it's like, Well, it'd be, it'd be much more appropriate if kids could play kids roles. And what we wanted to do was empower kids in the musical. So the heroes, we're always going to be the kids, the kids save the day. And then all three musicals that we write kids save the day, because it's empowering for the kids. And they are, you know, most of them are playing kids. There's some kids that play on this, because you can't get around that. So that was the main thing. But yes, we were talking about, we're talking about issues that that we liked to talk about, that we were passionate about, you know, and the first one was the education system. The second, the second one was the earth. Yeah. And it was built around this story about some, some indigenous people were talking about the effects of uranium mining in Central Australia. So it was built around that idea. And then the third one was a multi storey development going to be built on top of this beachfront. And the kids are worried about their Lou's gonna lose their fish and chip shop. So and of course, there was a local environmental problems as well. And it was all about plastic. And that's the stuff. So we had stuff that we were sort of really passionate about, we wanted the kids to know about. And we wanted, you know, we wanted them to know that this is this is this is the world you growing up in. And there's no reason why you can't be a hero in that world. And that's sort of where we giving them the eight ships of agency that they can have an impact, even though in in the world set up of the adults are in charge, and the adults do everything. But the kids actually, they have so much power that they can, you know, bring? Yeah, well, I mean, you know, literally the kids, the kids are the future. So, I mean, you know, and we're stuffing up their world. Yeah, I mean, seeing Whitney Houston, yeah. But she was right, she was in school rock, Jack Black says that the staff, you know, teach them well and let them lead the way. Frequency Fridays, every second Friday, I'm going to be offering some type of sound bath at the inner Sanctuary Collective and be super reasonably priced. And the idea is to build a community around sound, which is when price gets so reasonably. And there'll be different things. But at the end of the day, you know, the themes are just there for a framework, you can come for any type of experience. I like that. I might have a, I might have a stillness theme where everything is going to be a bit still or might have an electric theme or everything's going to be electric. You just see where it takes you. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. And, yeah, I'm pretty excited about that. That's, you know, I think that for it to happen, I need to I have some consistency. So you know, try and offer it. Yeah, every fortnight. Yeah. And yeah. And if people want to find out which fortnight so you're just hitting me up on Instagram is the best thing to do. So, yeah, I'll put the links in the show notes. Yeah. today. Thank you so much for coming on, Scott. It's been an absolute pleasure. I've really enjoyed this chat. We've gone to some deep, interesting places, and I've really enjoyed that. Thank you. Yes, absolutely. My pleasure. Have a lovely day. You know, just have a feeling. Yeah, let the conversation sort of late itself. So yeah, very grateful. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Charlotte Condie US artist, illustrator and designer S2 Ep29 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Charlotte Condie- an artist, illustrator + designer based in Atlanta, Georgia, USA, and the mum of 4 kids. Her experience in creative arts has spanned over two decades, 3 US states and multiple media including chalk, linoprint, quilting, collage and mosiacs. The bulk of her work is now digitally created, which has proved to be a great option for her as a mum of a young child, when she is frequently holding a baby and unable to fumble with inks, rollers, paints, brushes, and canvases. We chat about how her art practice has adapted to suit her current situation, how her yoga practice influences her artwork, using her art to to aid surviving through the pandemic. and reflecting the simple day to day events through her art. **This episode contains discussions about depression, anxiety, panic attacks and a brief mention of domestic abuse** Visit Charlotte's https://www.instagram.com/charlottecondieart/ and - https://charlottecondieart.com/ . View Charlotte's piece " Protection " - https://www.instagram.com/p/CYMdwTSF58g/ More information about the mudrahs - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudra Read more about Meg Conley - https://www.instagram.com/_megconley/ Shop art supplies Charlotte uses here Connect with the podcast - https://www.instagram.com/art_of_being_a_mum_podcast Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me today. My guest on this episode is Charlotte, Condi, artist, Illustrator and designer based in Atlanta, Georgia in the United States, and a mom of four children. Charlotte's experience in creative arts has spanned over two decades, over three US states and multiple media, including chalk line Oh print, quilting, collage and mosaics. The bulk of her work is now digitally created, which has proved to be a great option for her as a mum of a young child, when she's frequently holding a baby and unable to fumble with inks, rollers, paintbrushes, and canvases. Today, we chat about how her art practice has adapted to suit her current situation, how her yoga practice influences her artwork, using her art to aid surviving through this pandemic, and reflecting on the simple day to day events through her art. This episode contains discussion around depression, anxiety, panic attacks, and a brief mention of domestic abuse. Welcome along Charlotte, it's lovely to meet you. Thank you so much for being on the show. Yeah, sounds exciting. Yeah. Never done a podcast before. Oh, you guys. It's cool. I think you might only be my third guest from America to which is which is cool. So I'm starting to Yeah. and broaden the horizon. Time. Is it there for you? Is it breakfast time? Yep, it is. It's 7am. Okay, can you same breakfast so actually got? Yeah, I'm Mark my moments by just what I'm going to be eating. Oh, that's cool. So you're in my right. So you're in Atlanta. Is that right? Yeah. Lana metro area. Yeah. Right. So that's like, that's a that's a big, big cities. And it is. I mean, we've lived in bigger. I'm actually from Southern California. And so I grew up in Orange County, just outside of Los Angeles, which to me was large. And I guess this it's not as big as LA but it is. It's you know, you have downtown and then it sprawls for quite a while. So yeah. Yeah. Lots of people. Can you give us a little bit trade to what you do? You're the sort of style of art that you may right now I'm almost exclusively digital. And it's, it's, I guess you would kind of classify it as illustrative. And I really enjoy like, retro style, like I draw a lot of inspiration from like, old illustrations, comics, ad art, stuff that, you know, people would would sell things with. I don't know why I think just because I'm a kid from the 80s and so that stuff is so I don't know. Comforting. Yeah. Old, old stuff. Yeah, rotary phones and that sort of thing. Like, yeah, yeah, that's so familiar and comfortable for me. Yep. So that, that kind of informs my style. But subject wise, I tend, I tend to kind of sit somewhere in kind of spiritual, but also like, fun. It's rough, because the style, like, I love spiritual art, and I love like symbolism, especially, it's kind of an obsession. For me. The challenge is that, when you when you want to sit in that space, it's almost like there's a requisite for what your art should look like, right? And, like, mine, almost maybe I feel like could be considered crass. If I want to approach some of those topics, because it's almost gross. Like, looking next to other people. I'm like, well, they have these gorgeous images of, you know, God or, yeah, handlers or whatever. And that's not what I do. I could, but that's not and it's funny, because I have that stuff in my home. And I love putting that kind of thing in my home. But that's not what I that's not how I think it's weird. It's almost like, a bit of a juxtaposition sort of thing. Like, yeah, it's a bit of, I don't know, yeah. Yeah. Because that's like, approaching the divine, from a very human way. Like, we're still we're animals, we're, we are very gross in our, in our behavior and our approaches. And, and that's, that's not necessarily anything to be ashamed of. And I think I'm trying to still find the balance of how can I? How can I approach those divine aspects of myself, while also recognizing that I'm still a human being, and that I have human experiences, and I'm very much a product of my time and my society? Yeah, absolutely. So that was like that, that's really reflected in the way that the Euro looks. It's like, it's very real. And it's, it's not, I don't wanna say sugar coated, but it's like, this is what it's like, this is what life's like, right now in 2020. Yeah. So really cool. So how did you get into Chintu? Yeah, I've always been a really creative person. I've always been a creative kid. My dad graduated from university in studio arts, he was an artist. But that was never anything he made a living off of. But he was like that point person in early childhood that introduced me to creativity and music was a big part of my childhood. And you know, it still is a part of our lives. I have a daughter, who is all she plays almost anything she touches, she can turn it into a musical instrument, and she's gonna graduate high school with a it's like a musical diploma, sort of, and. But like, so the creativity has always been part of me. And I was the kid that was always drawing and you know, the friends come to me, can you drive this, can you drive this and, but it wasn't something I was able to pursue at university, my my mom who resented my dad for being an artist. And having trouble finding jobs was like, I don't want you to do that you're gonna do this. And it was, it's an irony because mom didn't want any of us to go into the arts. And while we didn't, we also didn't get a job in the thing we went to school for either. So like, you need to be realistic about what you're expecting for your children. Because, like, just because you get a bachelor's degree in something does not mean that that's what you're going to be doing for the rest of your life. So it's a good lesson, I think, because it's, I feel like, I've know what it's like over there. But there's so much pressure here for kids to know what they're going to do when when they get like up to year 12. Where you're both here. It's like you have to feel like no one realistic to do. Yeah, like, and that's a common thing like it maybe it's just because we're products of a Western civilization where they're like, What do you want to be when you grow up? And, like, can't expect a child to know what that is? Or to understand what that means. And yeah, we'll have dreams that's fine, have dreams. But I'm like, we're not all going to be astronauts and we're not I'm going to be to Vinci or the president. And, and that's fine like I want, I want them to aspire to things, but then to also expect them to understand even at 18. What they're going to be doing, like, my, so my oldest is 18. She's a senior, she's going to graduate in five months. And so she thinks she wants to do architecture. And I'm like, you know, great, go do your generals, if you still want to do that. Yeah, go ahead and do that. But I'm, I'm leaving the room open for you to change your mindset real time. Yeah, I certainly did. That's the truth, isn't it? And when you get out there in the world, and you actually see what there is, it's like, you know, yeah, you don't even know what you don't know, when you get out there. Right? You don't even know. And, like, I remember, when I graduated, I was like, I want to, I want to do anthropology, because I love cultures and history and all that. And then I got into that department. And I was like, this is the driest thing I've ever seen. Like, my teachers were so boring. Like, I can't do this. To be stuck in. Like, this is not my cup of tea. And I and I married my husband while we were in school, and he's an accountant. And he's like, You should take an accounting class and like, Yeah, okay. And I took basic accounting, I'm like, No, that's not my style. Do you know, when you know, you know? Or you just, you know, by trial and error, you're like, No, that's not me either. I love that. So you started to you mentioned about your daughter's. He's 18. Tell us about your family. So we have four kids. We have three teenagers and a 20 month old. Yeah. So, um, our oldest three, we adopted all of them as infants in our 20s. And and then I got pregnant when I was 38 and had a baby at 39. So yeah, I have an 18 year old, a 16 year old, my son will be 14 next month and then the baby. And so that's, that's a fun dynamic. Like, it's not that bad. It. The thing I love about having the baby again, is that she brings up and reminds me of all the times with the other kids, which was nice, you know, because like it was so long. It was 12 years since I had had a baby. And I had forgotten a lot of those things. And so she'll do things I'll be like, Oh, we remember when, you know, my son did this or the other girls did this and like it just I feel I feel bad that like every single moment with her I'm just grabbing on to because I feel like she's probably the last one and I like often go to bed crying because I'm like, Oh, I've just missed this and I'm so sad that it's gonna go away soon. And my husband's like, what's the problem? Like, she's gonna go to school and a year and a half. He's like, you're gonna be okay. At the end of the day but isn't that nice? They like you say you, you sort of it's like you're appreciating every all these moments. Yeah, present and you're really experiencing everything. Like that's really lovely. Yeah, I regret that I wasn't as present for the older kids as I am for her. I didn't appreciate it when I was in my 20s. And I was, you know, trying to juggle three children close together. They're all they were all two years apart each of them and so I remember taking my oldest to school. I would walk her to kindergarten. She'd be like I had a double stroller. So I'd have the two girls in there and my son was like on my chest. And I would walk you know, like a mile to the school and people would look at me and their cars like what is she doing? Like fumbling all these children. And it was crazy times, like the one story that like one morning so my son is huge. He's so he's Tongan in Samoa and big boy. And he was a big boy at birth, but he learned how to crawl out of his crib at six months. And so I couldn't contain him at that point. And then naptime was like, well, you're just gonna sleep forever, because they can't keep you anywhere. So one morning, I remember he had crawled out of his crib, down the stairs into his sister's room. And suddenly, I'm still in bed, and I hear this screaming, and I run down there. And he had pooped on one of my daughter's beds. My oldest daughter, and my oldest daughter had rented the living room. She's cowering in the corner, like screaming. And then my other daughter who is like a, like a compulsory vomiter, like, started barfing, because it grossed her out. So kids craving one kid barfing, and another one who just pooped on the sheet. And my husband looks at the situation and he's like, I need to go to work. I'm like oh, my goodness. Oh, that's brilliant. Well, that's parenting in a nutshell, isn't it? So I hesitate to ask, but during that time, will you need to do any? Yeah. Not at that exact moment. But you know. So the creativity has evolved and changed over time, and it certainly accommodates to the situation. When I was with them, when they were little, there was a lot of I did like collage stuff, mosaics. I did a lot of quilting, like aplicadas, stuff like that. But it was also things like gifts and stuff for me or the home. And when see my son was for it was right before we left California. So my husband is he wasn't in public accounting. So he worked for a large accounting firm, out of Orange County, Los Angeles area. And we were there for eight years. And it was, it was a good life. But we certainly couldn't afford to give the kids the life. We wanted to give them there. And it was his job was so demanding. It was often 18 hour days. Oh, it was it was not. Yeah, it wasn't. When we got married. It wasn't this was what we wanted. And so we're sitting there reevaluating that with children. And we're like, you don't want to do it this way. And he he recognized he's like, you know, the thing I do enjoy is teaching the new recruits every year when they when they would go out. They would bring in new employees and they would train. And he's like, that's the part I love the most was teaching the new people. And so we decided to go to graduate school, in the middle of that. And so we took three children with us to Madison, Wisconsin, and he pursued his PhD so he could then teach so now that's why we're here in Georgia is he teaches in the business school, he teaches accounting. And that has been Wow, that was a tremendous challenge to to go through. That was definitely worth it because now he can take my son to football practices and be there and he can come to concerts with the girls and he can and this is the most time he has spent with one of the children ever at this age this little age like he missed a good chunk of the older kids early years because he wasn't around And so that's been nice. But I'm sorry. And that wasn't even really the answer to your question. But before, right before we left, right before we left California, I had started doing competitive chalk, mural competitions. California is like the perfect environment for that, because it's almost warm all year long. And the weather's nice, like, it's very rare that you don't have a wet season, certainly. And so we lived in Mission Viejo at the time, and they had a chalk festival. And I was like, I should try this. And it was so fun that I went out of my way to like, find other ones. And so I would do several year. And I did two with my dad in Salt Lake City. That was usually over the Father's Day weekend, which was really fun. I knew he would enjoy that. And then and oftentimes we are, I would win some of them which was validating, like, especially if they were a cash prize. So but that was something that I was able to do. When we were living in Wisconsin, it was a little more of a challenge, because part of the year you certainly can't be outside. But I remember kind of the beginning of the end of it, though, was when I drove I think it was three or four hours to Iowa. For one, and I, I want it but it was gift cards to the town that it was in. Oh, like I don't even live. I'll never be back. And I was like, Okay, I need to weigh like my costs and expenses for this like, because it was not just time, but it was like just money and time away from my children. And so yeah. I think things definitely picked up in Wisconsin, I had a good friends. Still a good friend, I just haven't been able to communicate with her as much since we've moved. But she was a designer for American Girl and the doll company. And she she made a Christmas card one year doing line Oh print. And I was so like, struck with that. That method, I was like, that looks like something I could do. And it was and I got into that couple years before we left Wisconsin. And that's when I actually started selling things was with that. And it was something I could do. I kept all the supplies in my basement next to the washer and dryer and I would go down there after kids would go to sleep and work or I would do it. Like if they were at school and I was off work or whatever. Then I would take a few hours and do that. The way that you draw now, I noticed on your on your socials, you talk a lot about using your iPad, like doing digital drawing. Yes. So it's like your practices evolve to suit. What's going to happen? Yeah, so the iPad. My husband bought me an iPad for Christmas in 20 I think it was the Christmas of 2019. So it was a Christmas I was pregnant. And I'm actually to back up a little. When I first got pregnant. I was so tired. And I couldn't do anything. Like I had, I had bought all the supplies to actually start screen printing. Because I wanted to start doing that. And I had made screens and I had all these things already. And I suddenly got very tired. I can't I didn't produce anything those entire almost nine months. I didn't do anything and and I know that sounds crazy and I I would wake up I'd be like how do people go to work? be pregnant? Like how did they show up at work? Because I had to take a nap every single day and I was lucky that I have that option. Like I'm just gonna lay You're down here and just take a three hour nap because I couldn't do it. And luckily, I was selling stuff at a local blue peak at the time. And they were like, oh, yeah, take the time you need. And that was really nice. So I bought the iPad, though. That was a game changer. But it took almost a year to figure out what I was doing. Because I didn't. I knew there were programs, and I didn't know what they were, and I know who to who to talk to. And so finally, I sat down and I, I got, I use procreate. And then I got a Skillshare subscription to learn how to use these things. Because I was like, I can't, I used to be able to pick things up. I learned how to use Adobe Photoshop, and I was like, 16 years old. And without tutorials before there were tutorials. And now I don't know if it's because I'm old. But I'm like, I I can't just I was it took me nine months of sitting here. And I was like, I don't know how to use this. Like, I would try and even even the the company's own little walkthrough how tos. I was like, No, I need I need a YouTube video or something. So finally I yeah, I just got Skillshare. And that that's, that's where it took off. So like, and I need to post something about this. Because looking at just what I had started doing last year in January, to now it's huge. I'm just being able to understand the medium. That was a huge learning curve. On Yeah, I love watching your little videos, we actually show how you. Hey, yeah, that's so cool. Because like, I'm not far at all. So I love I love seeing people draw and paint and yeah, that makes me happy. Yeah, it's, it's rough, because it's easy for me to share the videos from the iPad. The rough part is setting up a tripod to actually videotape me doing it because then I'm like, I gotta do this during nap time, when she's not around to like knock over the tripod. And so it's just like another I need to actually plan to do. Oh, no. So at the moment when it comes to creating is it it is it's literally around naptimes bedtimes is that so Hey. So it used to be that first year of her life before she started moving. I had a baby in one hand and the iPad in the other hand, and I would draw, and I would hold her and it was very like, I was like I could do this forever was great. And then she started moving, and then things got a little more challenging. So now like sometimes she'll get distracted for an hour, like we'll sit and watch a show or whatever. And I'll just kind of grab my iPad and draw. But usually it's when she's napping or she's sleeping. That's when like, serious stuff gets done, especially if I want to record anything I'm doing. It just has to happen when she's She's asleep. Can't do it when she's awake. Very grabby. Oh, I work in childcare. So I completely can relate to the age. But I mean, the medium is great, because like, I realized after she was born, and I had my studio still, everything was still out. And I looked at it and I said you know, I don't think I can do this for a while, like I can't come back to printing for a while because it's just not conducive to the current situation that I'm in. So like I packed it all up. I also started oils. It started oils. And then I was like, Yeah, this isn't gonna happen for a couple years. So I just packed it all up and put it away. And it's fine though, because I can take the iPad anywhere and cleaning that up as a matter of a split second, I can just close it and She can't get hurt. I don't lose anything. It doesn't hurt the house. It doesn't hurt her. So, yeah, it's just it works perfectly. Can you see yourself going back to that more, you know, hands on physical stuff I do. And I want to I am putting a piece together actually, for an organization that is like a physical piece, it's going to be like a mosaic. And that's it's just rough going, because it's something I have to keep away. And I only can do it when no one is around me. So yeah, just limit my time. And it's also tough, because by the end of the day, I'm exhausted. And I'm like, I just can't do it. Yeah, that's the thing. There's only there's only so much that you've got to give isn't there? You can't have too far or you just, you just crack unfortunately. What I wanted to ask, I was looking at your amazing pace, protection. As soon as I saw that, I just thought all these things came to mind. Like, I thought this lady knows about the Madrid She must know about yoga. So this is cool. But just the way that it looks, it's so I'll have to put a link for people to have a look at this page. Because it's just incredible. Like you you're basically linking something that's 1000s and 1000s of years old, with something incredibly relevant. That's happening right now with with Derek Yeah, can you can you tell us a bit more about the piece? Oh, that makes me feel good. So yeah, like, so Yoga is a big part of my life. Even though like right now it's hard to even get to but, um, so I felt so one, I guess, this year, kind of like a personal goal was just to really start doing stuff that spoke to me that that could say something that I couldn't really say with words, and, but that also was putting parts of myself out there. And because for me, spiritually, I come from a lot of places, and yoga feeds and a lot of that. But I think these last two years, and it's been rough, because I had a baby at the beginning of the pandemic. And it's already challenging to be a parent of a small child. But then you're a parent of a small child, and you just don't know what's going on. Like, like, I understand the science, and I understand only as much as, you know, any epidemiologist is going to share with me and, and put it in terms that I understand. It's, it's scary and, and my my baby can't be vaccinated yet. And so, like trying to navigate what feels like a brand new world. That's very scary. I feel like I need to draw from the things that I've known for as long as I can remember that. I feel comforting. And I feel like give me peace inside. And pairing that with what I do understand logically will keep me safe as much as it can, you know, and it's like, every day I have this kind of have, you know, ever we all have these mental conversations with ourselves all day about, you know, how am I going to keep going? When I don't really know what tomorrow is going to be like, I don't really know. Am I going to be safe? Is my family going to be safe? Is my country going to be safe? Like yeah, it's it's an exhausting environment to live in. And I, the people I feel most sad for are my teenagers who are going to be remembering this for the rest of our lives. I don't think my baby will, I hope. I would hope that she'd be resilient enough to do This will be normal for her. This, this isn't she won't know any different, but my older kids do. And I've seen how this has been a real struggle for them. Like, I had to get everybody in therapy, the last year, I had to get everybody on medication this last year. And so for me, this concept of protection, it's, we have to arm ourselves with everything we know, in order to move forward into the unknown. You're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I was amazed at some of the other pieces I saw on your website, you sort of looking at day to day things like there's things about anxiety, self love, postpartum, the garden is just every day experience bass. Yeah. Yeah, and those are, those were all part of a series I did for a gallery in Utah. Yeah, I mean, because when you're a mom, when you're a parent, I feel like the world kind of shrinks for you, right? And you're focusing on just that, that one little person, or, you know, maybe a couple of little people. And you are so involved with all of their needs, because their needs are immediate, and they rely on you completely for everything, and, but it's been fun to be present in that this time. Like, you're not to really worry about all the other things maybe I want to do, because I know I'm gonna get to do them again. And I like, really recognizing how short these moments are with her right now. I appreciate all these little things. And so she just loves walking down the street. And so we'll go out to the street, and she loves to look up at the planes that fly by. And she, she tells me about the birdies that are in the trees. And she loves like, people, some people still have Christmas decorations up and she'll want to go look at the Christmas decorations. And like just appreciating all those little moments. And being able to be a little kid with her is very soothing and just simplifies. Like I just kind of keeps my brain calm. Because yeah, like, especially, it feels like right now it's so isolating, which we've tried to be so careful. I don't get a lot of social interaction. And so it's when when you're isolated, you tend to get more depressed. And there's a lot of self talk that ends up being, you know, not, I mean, maybe negative, but certainly not helpful or productive. And so, I mean, parenting is so isolating, but so is the was living in. And it's like, I don't know. I like to be honest about all those feelings. But also recognizing the they're not forever. They don't have to be forever. Yeah, it's, it's hard because when you're depressed, or when you're, you're living in this heightened sense of anxiety for months at a time. It feels like it's just gonna, it's never gonna end. It's never gonna end. But I do I know that that does. And so I mean, I've only do things at depression for over 20 years, and we have taken medication for it, and I still do. Well, the hardest parts about being pregnant was I couldn't, and I had to get off it as quickly as and safely as I could. But I was I was a mess when I was pregnant. And I mean, I loved being pregnant, which is so crazy. That like you're miserable, but you're also just so in love and like I would love to be pregnant again. But I also recognized that I was a mess. And like I just somedays just, I couldn't get out of bed. I was I was just so deeply depressed or was just so anxious. And that was before the pandemic. I don't know how I could be pregnant now. Women do it. The topic of mum guilt. Do you? Do you have any thoughts on that term? That topic? Yeah, I've been thinking about that. So like, I think that's a real thing. But only because we've made it. Right. Like, I feel like it's such a product of our society. Yeah. Like, especially in societies that don't serve women. And, and I can, I don't know, Australia's system very well. So I'm not going to speak at all to you. Mostly just to mine where we, the one thing I've noticed, okay, so the big eye opening thing for me about this pandemic was it truly revealed how much my country's economy relies on the free labor of women. And I say that because of the way it went down when schools couldn't meet. And people had to quit their jobs. And it was mostly women who quit their jobs. Because someone needed to be home with all these kids who had to go to school. And what hurts is no one's said anything about that in the government's like, no one's recognized that plenty of women are saying, Do you see how like, crippled the economy is because you are relying on half of us to leave our workplace and stay home to make things move forward, as best they can. I and so certainly, when you have a system like that, that doesn't value, the the work and the impetus of half of the population, of course, we're gonna get guilt, we're asked to raise human beings, and also contribute to society as if those two things are different. As if, as if parenthood isn't a contribution to society, it's not valued, because there's never been a monetary value placed on it. But it's obvious now. Because no one noticed that people are working at home to raise human beings for the society without any kind of financial compensation or recognition. And, and then we're punished when that job is done. And we want to go back into the workforce. were punished because we had been home the whole time, like, Well, we've certainly been doing things like, yeah, we've been economizing. We've been transporting, we have been, like, we've been doing accounts and receipts, like, can you cannot tell a parent, that they're not doing stuff for the economy, just because they're a parent. So like, of course, you're going to have guilt in that kind of situation. I just feel like now. And especially now, I'm like, I am not at all guilty for staying home right now. And I'm not at all guilty about taking time for myself when I need to. Like I I'm, I'm fortunate enough that we don't need two incomes right now. We did when we're in Wisconsin, and my husband was in graduate school. And I worked I was I worked at an elementary school and I worked on a farm. I did that for over three years. And that was rough. And I mean, it wasn't just that like we also needed government assistance for food like because we we were students and we have three children. I just feel like We need to pull ourselves out of our heads, even though our society may tell us or subconsciously tell us that we are not valuable as parents. That's not at all true. Because without us, this society would fall won't even exist. I feel like every parent needs to take comfort and pride in that. But also, it should move us to maybe request more, demand more. I feel like, what, what gets me so fired and angry right now is that, like, my government is trying so hard to pass things to help families and it's not happening and I'm, I'm so mad. I'm like, this has like, exacerbated and exposed all of the worst parts of our system that we've been relying on. And we're not doing anything about it. Like, it's obvious. It's clear, like the numbers are there, but they're not doing anything about it. And it's, I think, I think it's Meg Conley, she's a writer, if I should send you her stuff. She's amazing. And she has talked about this a lot. And it's, it just like puts fire in my mom bones. Like, it's just this is this is not the podcast for that I'm sorry. Not so good. Don't ties in. I mean, this is, this is what you know, your thoughts and your opinions, that's what influences your your work. So you know, yeah, what I mean, and it to be a parent, like, you're, I feel like you're in the trenches of economies. Like it's just that that influences every part of your life as a parent. So the other topic I love to hear about is identity. So that idea that I mean, we've sort of we've sort of talked touched on it briefly, in this last the last topic we spoke about, but when you become a mum, that's it. That's all you are. You're just a mum, you're not. Did you ever feel like we're at the moment feel like when we as a mother, what happens to Charlotte, who you were before, for sure, especially when I was a young mom, like I wanted to be a mom, like, obviously, we went out of our way to be parents, because we adopted, but that still happened. Like I still. You're, you're worrying about someone else all day. And you're meeting all their needs all day long. It, it feels almost like you're disappearing as a human being. And I, I felt that and I get that argument too. But I do have to swing back to now how quick that time is, like, in the moment, it feels like eternity, like, the days are long. But the years are so short. And the roughest part for me. While it was so hard when they were little, and I felt lost sometimes was when my son went to school, though. Because then I was like, What am I going to do with my life? Like? It's not like they don't need me now. But it's a different need, like the kind of self sufficient and they're going to school for a good chunk of the day. Like, what am I going to do? And that is when the art got pretty intense for me, because I needed to explore that for myself. And I certainly had other responsibilities, like I had to go to work and stuff to jobs I hated. Like, I loved the farm. I loved and that was that's a job I would always take. But working in an elementary school. I hated that job. And the kids were cute, but if you ever want insight to like another failed system of a large government, public education like I will I will die on the lines for any teacher who works in public education. And because those people are underpaid, and they are unprepared for all of the things that happen there, I was, I was verbally and physically abused by children for several hours a day. And it's like, no adult is prepared for this. Like, they don't prepare you even even as a parent, I was there and I'm like, How can you be this way? Like, I understand you're someone's baby, why are you so mean to me? I needed that job. So the art, though, has been cathartic, therapeutic, and an opportunity for me to come back in touch with myself. And especially that inner child work that I felt like really needed to be done. I had a pretty abusive home wife as a kid. And, like, kind of sorting that out for myself, and still doing it. The art is what gets me through that. Like that's. And I know, even people who aren't creative or don't, don't turn to creativity, to help themselves through that, that sense of sell. Like, there's always something right. And and I'm not saying that work is the answer. Because it isn't always. But I think maybe maintaining the perspective that our life moves in seasons and cycles. And it's, it's easy to say, especially as a female, where we we literally have a season and a cycle every month or whatever. But knowing that our life if we can, if we are lucky enough can be long. And there are things I'm doing now, I'd never imagined I was doing 20 years ago, and I'm sure there will be things I'm doing in 20 years that I've never even thought of like maybe I'll I'll maybe I'll go back to graduate school. I don't know, like, the their possibilities are endless. And I think we don't need to necessarily peg ourselves into one little box. Because we're always growing, we're always changing, just like our children. And that never stops if we're if we're lucky enough. We never have to stop growing. We never have to stop learning. And just because we're not the same person we were 20 years ago doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Maybe it's a good thing. Yeah. I like that. That's good. Yeah, and I like that you articulate that we're always growing and changing just like our children like you. And that and being that sort of ties into being really present, experiencing the experiencing the moment and then knowing that that will pass and then you'll have another moment. Yeah, it's a really good way of things. And I guess that helps to stop people like feeling really overwhelmed. Because you can be stuck in a moment and be like, Oh my gosh, this is just so it's never gonna end well, you know, but it's like, actually, it's okay. Because yeah, for sure. I mean, and that's what I love. The basics of yoga, breathing and your mind, you can't stop your mind from thinking you can't stop thoughts from coming, right. But if you just focus on your body, breathing for a minute, just just think about your lungs, filling with air and coming out again, just being in that moment with your body. Recognizing that this is what you're doing, and that's okay. And it's hard like I suffered terrible panic attacks. When we were preparing to move down here and after, like, I had thyroid disease for over 10 years, and then my thyroid started to make some thyroxin again, and I became hyper to the point where I was having panic attacks and, and then when you have panic attacks, you feel like you're dying, like you don't really understand what's going on with your body until you've had one. And then. So then when I was having them, I recognize, okay, something's definitely going on with my body, and I had to go to the doctor and get that taken care of. But in those moments, like when you are overstimulated, you're panicked, or you feel like you can't get out of that moment. It is hard to focus on just breathing. But that's like the only thing you need to do. And like, I'm not a doctor, and I'm not a yoga teacher or anything, I just, I just know that if you can just try and focus on that basic thing that keeps you alive in that moment. And then do it the next moment, and do it the next moment, like helping helping my children, you know, this last year, like overcome real mental health challenges. reminding them that you know what, it was a bad day today. It was a really bad day. Let's go to bed. And we'll wake up in the morning. And we'll just try again. You know, and that's all you can do. Yeah, absolutely. Yep. And that's really good to like tools and skills to be able to pass on to your children that you know how to manage. As I heard, it's similar experience with my eldest this year. He's four, Lizzie now 13. So last year, we started my school here that just complete overwhelm where you can't Yeah, you can't think you can't process stuff. You just get in this panic state that just come back to you breathing, we would call this the square breathing. So you live in for for four hours before and just just bring yourself back to the present moment what's actually happening? You know, it's such a powerful, like, it's so simple, that it's ridiculous, but it's just, you know, yeah, it's so powerful. And you forget that it's there. You forget that you've got this breath. It's keeping you alive. You don't even have to think about it, you know? Yeah. Because if you don't have to think about it, it's a really, it's a really good tool. When it comes to you, yeah. Probably not so much your littlest one. But for your older kids, do you feel it's important for you that they see your contribution that you're making? What you're putting out to the world? Yeah. I mean, I think one's definitely important that they see that I am taking time to do something that I like. Because I think that's like vital to maintaining, you know, yourself as an adult. You need to be able to have those times to do that. Even if it's just watching television. But being productive, not that your value is based on productivity, but doing something you enjoy and having people's to do that. I think that's valuable. And I think that helps them because then that gives them permission to do the things that they want to do like my son who loves football right now. And like, more than pretty much anything else. And and we have had to have talks about look, I still need you to work on school. I still need you to focus on that because that's kind of important. I love that you love football but I also need you to get a good education. Then Then my my daughter who loves Music and, and, and I think we all we all try and support each other in the things that we love. And I mean, if you're lucky enough, you'll get to spend your life even making money doing the thing you like. But even if you know, that's going to be something that's going to be part of your life forever, that's gonna be enriching and therapeutic and help you just help you feel you like you yourself. You know, I mean, it just feel comfortable in yourself in your skin. Doing what it is that you like, and and then for them, they're all on social media do which is fun, and come to me and be like, Mom, you swore on Instagram today, I'm like, Yeah I did this, I have people watching me, but then they, they'll see the stuff that I put out there, and they'll see they'll even watch, you know, me explain things about it. And it's not like we have those conversations about my work at all. But, um, I think it's valuable because when you see other people doing things they like, and then also getting an insight into the way they think about it or, or how they're thinking about it. Something maybe you'd never thought about. I mean, that's what I love about social media is that I get to meet people I would not have otherwise ever met in my life. And I get to learn about them and what's makes them tick. And, and I have like, these relationships with some of these people that are so like, dear to me. And like I think about them when I'm not on social media and like, I wonder if they're doing okay today or, and that. That's, that's super sustaining, especially right now when I don't get out to meet people, and I don't get to do that. But it also it just kind of opens my mind to people I've never met or people I have not experienced like, and getting to know them. Like I love that and learning things about them helped me change my behaviors like this last year. I've had like a hard time, for the last couple of years, celebrating American Thanksgiving. And really listening to indigenous people talk about what that holiday means to them has definitely helped me reflect on what I can do in my own life, to better support them and to to be the type of friends that I would like for myself. You know, like I want to be a friend to them and and i i Just what changes do I need to make for myself to be the person I'd like to be? Yeah, so some real sort of some navel gazing I suppose. Just so see ya for sure Yeah. I, I've had this goal for a while actually to start putting out some illustrations for children's books. And that's like, I really hope I can get that underway this year. Like, I think about it, and I think about it and then like another project comes up or whatever. And so it just never gets to my plate. So I, I want to do that. But the other thing I really interested in doing is illustrating some I don't know if you've ever heard of Howard then? He is I think so. Yeah. So he's a social scientist. He wrote The People's History of the United States and it's it's a lot more comprehensive history of our country that is often not taught in schools. I think it's actually a college level book, but I read it and I was like, I love this book so much and There is a children's primary school equivalent that they created. It's like the Howard's in education project. And they have like, and I had bought the children's version for my kids, but it's not like a children's version. It's more like high school level, I think. So I would love to maybe start doing some illustrations of those stories. Yeah, even just to share on social media, like, I love that. It's it's tragic that social media is now like a default education system. But at the end, it's tricky, right? Because there is that tremendous possibility of misinformation and disinformation. And like, there's stuff that definitely is absolutely bonkers. That's not real that's out there. But if we can somehow teach each other how to find reliable, adequate sources of information and share those, I can only think that's benefits everybody, right? Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, there's a lot of education to be had. I had decided, at the end of last year that, like, I really need to start moving towards people and bodies like, I can do them. I just don't because I'm so I don't know what tone to strike yet with them. And so it's like, well, I'm gonna start with hands. And I know mudras. And I know symbols. Well, and I'm going to start with that. So there will probably be more like, protection coming out. Yeah. Yeah. Look forward to that and be awesome. That's not the word. You know what I mean? It's gonna be one thing. I do know what you mean. It to at least two big words. You know, that's all right. I'm about I'm about to wind down mentally. Like it's about time for me to make dinner and yeah. After dinner, I'm like, Alright, I got about two hours before I can put the kid down. And then I'm just going to ease into my bed and like, listen to podcasts and draw like it really is really lovely. It is good. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. Edge to Alice Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Beth Stephen Australian singer + songwriter S2 Ep74 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts I am very excited to welcome to the podcast today Beth Stephen, a singer, songwriter and mother of 2 from Melbourne, Victoria, and one half of the Teeny Tiny Stevies. Beth grew up in a very musical family, her parents were working musicians and she has fond memories of seeing her parents all dressed up ready to go to a gig and listening to her parents band rehearse. In her teenage years Beth and her sister Byll decided to start their own indie-folk group, The Little Stevies and they performed on the folk festival circuit in Victoria playing their own songs. (The girls actually still release music as The Little Stevies) In 2015, inspired by the need to teach Byll’s three-year-old about the challenges of toilet training, the sisters started playing around writing children’s songs. What began as a side-hobby became so fun and effective that they decided on a complete change of direction and The Teeny Tiny Stevies were born. Before they knew it, their debut album ‘Useful Songs for Little People’ had become a word-of-mouth sensation around Australia. They’ve since released 4 albums through ABC Music, won both the ARIA Award and AIR Award for ‘Best Children’s Album’ in 2020, been commissioned to write music for Sesame Street’s online channel in the US, and signed a book deal with HarperCollins. Their first book, released in December 2021, was nominated for the 2022 ABIA Best Children’s Book Award. They’ve also licensed 18 animated music videos to ABC KIDS TV, which have been played over 21 million times on the ABC KIDS iView app. And at the time of recording this, the girls are up for another ARIA Award for their album How to Be Creative, the winners announced this week. Beth website Podcast - instagram / website Tiny Tiny Stevie's music appears in today's episode with permission via my APRA AMCOS Online Mini Licence Agreement When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for tuning in. It really is such a pleasure to have you. today. I'm very excited to welcome to the podcast bet Stephen. She's a singer songwriter, and mother of two from Melbourne, Victoria, and one half of the teeny tiny Stevie's Beth grew up in a very musical family. Her parents were working musicians and she has fond memories of seeing her parents all dressed up ready to go to gigs and listen to her parents bands rehearse. In her teenage years, Beth and her sister veal, decided to start their own indie folk group, the little Stevie's and they performed on the folk festival circuit in Victoria, playing their own songs. The girls actually still released music as the little steamies in 2015, inspired by the need to teach Bill's three year old about the challenges of toilet training, the sisters started playing around writing children's songs. What began as a side hobby became so much fun and effective that they decided on a complete change of direction and the teeny tiny Stevie's were born. Before they knew it, their debut album, useful songs for little people had become a word of mouth sensation around Australia. They've since released four albums through ABC music won both the ARIA Award and the air award for best children's album in 2020. They've been commissioned to write music for Sesame Street's online channel in the US and signed a book deal with HarperCollins. Their first book released in December 2021 was nominated for the 2022 Abia Best Children's Book Award. They've also licensed 18 animated music videos to ABC Kids TV, which have been played over 21 million times on the ABC Kids IP app. And at the time of this recording, the girls are up for another ARIA award for their album how to be creative in the 2022 areas. The winners will be announced this week. The teeny tiny Stevie's music appears today with permission by my APRA m cos online mini licensing agreement. Thank you so much for listening. I really hope you enjoyed today's chat. When it's time to end everything is I lay down my head say good night. Thanks so much for coming on today, Beth. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome me and to meet you as well. Alison, it's an absolute delight to be here. Thank you. You are a little bit of a famous person, you and your sister. Are we are we famous, you're famous. I don't know that. I did just do like a heap of shows at the Opera House. We did. And my goodness, have we been telling everybody because it's not every day that you get to perform at such such an amazing venue. And so look, we may never be able to do it again. But hopefully we do. So I think I'm starting to go through life with that sort of mind frame which which I'm quite enjoying it just going enjoy this as it may be the last time which has been actually really great to just really lean into enjoying things as much as you can. Yeah, that's thing isn't it? Because sometimes we can take things for granted in the moment. It's just happening. But yeah, if you can sort of stop and go actually, yes, I'm going to experience this fully and and there's nothing wrong with telling people to because you can be really proud of yourself you know to sing at the Opera House is a pretty big achievement. So yeah, I quite enjoyed the the secret of skates. You know, bringing the ring what was it the physio Are you because I've just done some shows of the opera house? Yes. And I should ask you that, you know, credit to my sister bill, my big sister bill. She is quite the comedic talent. And look, she she entertains me as much as she entertains. Everybody else who follows follows us on on the socials. You get the feeling she quite enjoys doing that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think it could be a throwback to a few drama. Training that she did. I remember going to hear VCA drama, final performance, and it was quite quite entertaining and amusing outside the UK. So using skills in different parts of life. So as good. So tell our listeners, what you are and who you don't what, sorry, what you do. You do. That is it. You ever said introduction to to yourself and what you are passionate about with your music? Well, as you said, I am a musician and songwriter. And I work with my sister, Bill Stevens Avila. And we are the teeny tiny Stevie's and we started this project maybe six or seven years ago, after we had been playing music together as the little Stevie's since we were teenagers. And we sort of got to the point where Bill was starting to have kids herself. And we just sort of got to the point where we had to start asking ourselves some, you know, difficult, challenging questions, a lot centered around how we're going to keep doing this, if we want to, you know, with the money that we're making at the time, which essentially wasn't really enough. And so the way that life was changing, we sort of had to ask ourselves, those questions of how we were going to do it, what should we do going forward, we still want to keep doing music. And that's when we decided that we wanted to do a bit of a pivot, you know, reinvent ourselves a bit. As you have to do all the time, going through life, when you sort of you find yourself getting stuck a bit, and you sort of have to think about things differently. And that's when we started seeing tiny Stevie's. And we thought, at the time, actually, we were thinking about potentially writing some comedy music, which I feel ridiculous even saying that sentence, because I'm not, not the naturally funny one. But I sort of thought, you know, maybe I could be the straight person, you know, again, side by side with Bill and I should be the funny man. And we did actually, you know, try and write some music like that. But then the other thing that we were exploring was trying to write some kid songs. And I sort of, say, Kids Songs in quotation marks, because I guess, the journey that the team science babies has been on, and what we have discovered about ourselves, and what we like to do, and our skill set is that it's not specifically for kids, it's for families. And we like to write about things that can be great conversation starters, within the household and within, you know, social settings and, and friendship circles. So yeah, and really, you know, over the last six or seven years, it's just gone from strength to strength, and it has definitely become the main thing now that we do, which is incredible. I never really thought that. I mean, I certainly hoped and dreamed that music would become the main thing that was has always been the dream. But, you know, for it to actually become that that's pretty special. So, you know, going back to trading each thing that we do, as you know, this could be the last time so we're definitely going to enjoy it. I think maybe those two things are connected a bit of just going off got to pinch ourselves. Sometimes we get to do all this amazing stuff. Yeah, it's fantastic. I love speaking to people who have have made their love into what they do every day. I think it's just wonderful. It's just, it's such a fulfilling life to have, like, I can't, like not speaking from experience with the music side of things, but the job that I have with children I absolutely adore. And I'm so lucky that I do it every day. And I sometimes think that I think God I get paid to do this, like, yeah, I would do it anyway. You know what I mean? Yeah, and that's the thing, isn't it? Fortunately, or unfortunately, you do it anyway. And we would do it anyway, at least, you know, if I think if you do have something that you're just driven by and so passionate about, you will you will fight for it and you will do it no matter what. in some capacity, you know, not always in the capacity that you would hope. Hope see, because obviously there are lots of things in life that can that impact that. But yeah, it's uh, yeah, fortunate later on unfortunately, forget on the day. Yeah, yeah in my mind in my head so your sister, how how many you guys twins? Or is there a bit of an age gap? Sorry, I'm not really sure. No, that's okay. Looking with Bill was listening she she'd love that comment that you just made? No, we're not twins. But you are probably the third person that's asked that question this week. Oh, I think is a huge four years older than I but she just doesn't seem to age. So somehow she managed to get that really fantastic, Jane. Yeah, that's actually I can, I can appreciate what you're saying. Because my sister and I, I'm two and a half years older, but for years, you know, and even now, sometimes people will get us confused because they're speaking voices and our singing voices are almost identical. And I used to trick people on the phone when we were younger. That who they're talking to, and my sister, the she used to work in our family, plant nursery, and people would see me down the street and ask me questions about their Protoss drums or their whatever's and I just, I don't like to embarrass people like I wouldn't, I wouldn't say I'm not Emma, I just sort of play along. Oh, gosh, oh, it was because I just I felt I wouldn't do it now. But I felt really bad for the person. And I'll pop into the nursery, and I'll help you in. And then you find yourself into doping. You're like, Oh, yeah. And I don't want to have to be like, Emma, there's a person gonna come in and think that they've already spoken to you. So get ready, you know? Yeah. I mean, did you girls ever do stuff like that? Like, cheeky things? Do you know what I actually don't think we did? I don't have any memories of it. Which, that sounds very boring. I know. Now you sound like fun. Very fun. So you girls have always sang together? Is this been a thing that's happened right from the present? As you know, for as long as you can remember? Absolutely. Yeah. So our parents were musicians, full time musicians for a good period of time in their working life. So certainly, as a little kids, you know, we as young kids, we saw Mom and Dad, you know, going off to work at night, they would pick up, you know, they'd get all dressed up in their stage view, and then pack their know their bags, and the babysitter would come around, and we, you know, go to bed just after they left. And yeah, that was just lots of strong memories of that. And then lots of big memories of the band coming over to rehearse in the garage. And we would either be, you know, in there listening with them observing everything, I don't know, rolling around on the floor, probably, or in the main house, you know, sort of listening through the baby monitor type scenario. So yeah, I've got really fond memories of all that. So you know, as a household music was always encouraged. Mum and Dad have always been extremely enthusiastic about us taking an interest in it. And I think you know, now that I've got kids in my own, I think probably when we reached those teenage years, when we started to show interest separate from Mum and Dad, and we started to explore things together a bit more. And we kind of discovered each other in our teenage years. Though, I can imagine that they were wrapped, you know, that we just had something to focus that energy into, because I guess, you know, sometimes teenagers can be a bit. You know, you can find yourself a bit lost and distracted. And so I think to have that, yeah, had to have that focus was probably a great thing. You know, maybe they probably weren't so stoked when it became obvious that we were really going to pursue it seriously. In terms of, you know, the money of them probably thinking to themselves, Oh, I don't I don't know if it's the most secure. Most secure Korea, but you know, as parents, it's yeah, it's a hard thing to balance all those feelings, I imagine. Yeah, that's the thing is a lot. I'm going through that with my son at the moment. He's thinking about what he wants to do. And I keep saying choose something that you love. Just pick something you really love. And my husband's a financial planner, and he's going Yeah, but make sure you know, you got enough money. I know it's, it's, yeah, I imagined their hard conversations to have. Yeah, yeah. So did you start learning instruments like formally or do you just pick things up from your parents? I had that sort Okay, both we do Yeah, we both did, you know, formal training on instruments through school, I think that was a bit of a expectation that mum and dad had. But then we also did it just ourselves, you know, at home, pick up picking up the guitars and stuff like that, and started to write songs. But really, you know, learning the guitar, and instruments like that was really just a vessel to be able to write songs and start writing songs. And I think at some stage, Mom said to me, she goes up to both of us, but she said, You know, one of the best things that you can do is to just learn an instrument that you can accompany yourself with. So you're not reliant on anybody else. To be able to write and perform your own songs, if that's what you want to do. And that was really great advice. And I'd probably give that year on to anyone else. Because it's great if you can just be self reliant, and then you can collaborate with others. But you know, if there aren't other people to collaborate with, and you can't rely on other people, you can still do the thing that you love. And you can still do it really well. And you don't have to be a superstar on your instrument. You just, it's just handy to be able to, you know, play a few chords. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? And then yeah, as a tool for songwriting, that you've actually got something you can not get you, your chords on, or, you know, he trains and things. Yeah. So can I ask with your parents, with a songwriters, as well, what sort of band did they have? They were, so they did their own original stuff. And they also did a bunch of covers. So I think for them, it was a mixture of the cover work, you know, really paid the bills. And then they also did their original stuff, and sort of kind of integrated the two a lot of the time, and also did separate things within music. So yeah, and when they were younger, before we were on the scene, as kids, they had their separate original groups when they you know, in their early 20s. And they did lots of touring, and you know, had their their own success doing that. And then when they got together as a couple started the new thing. And, and they continue doing that while Bill was a young kid, and then for a little bit when I came along, but I think certainly me as the second child, I sort of burst the dream a little bit, and they got some more reliable jobs, or better paid jobs. If everyone was gentle all the time, everyone would feel so good. I'm jumping into this early in the conversation, but have you found that you've sort of that role modeling of how to balance the two has been useful for you with your own children? Oh, definitely. But I would probably say, only because, you know, I've, I was a kid when my parents were doing this themselves. So there's not really I can't really have a great understanding or, or perspective on that, I guess, now, but what I do have, and what I've had been so lucky to have is Bill, who has who went through it all before me, you know, at least sort of six or seven years before me and because we spend so much time together, and we also have a business together, and we work together in so many different capacities. I've seen that very, very closely what she's gone through. And that's just been hugely beneficial for me. I mean, it's still it's not like having your own kids and going through that yourself. By any means. Yeah, you'll, you'll sort of never really understand that to that level until you're doing it yourself. Because you're always going to have a different experience for someone else. But yeah, to be able to see all those peaks and Trump's very closely was very helpful. I think it made me go in with very low expectations, to be honest. And I think that was quite handy. Yeah, that's true, isn't it? Because I think that's the thing, like, unless you see it, you can have all these wild ideas, like I'm gonna wear the baby while I'm, you know, recording or you know, all these sort of things, and then you just happen to have it happen to you and you go on, that's never gonna work like so at least you sort of had this rough idea of what was perhaps achievable and, and what wasn't. Definitely, and the stress, you know, the stress of, you know, if you're doing here with another person, and you know, there's a partnership or relationship involved, like, what a huge thing. What a huge stress to put on a relationship like that's, it's enormous and it's and it's and it's ongoingly stressful, it's also can be great and beautiful and all of those things, but it's a constant negotiation and compromise and, and just because you talk about one thing once doesn't mean that it's going to remain that way for In the next 20 years, and, you know, you've got to nurture and meet everyone's needs involved is really tricky. Obviously, we all know that. So yeah. 22nd We're in the summer holiday, people rush to get this stuff done. So they can stop and take a break Christmas movies on the TV, Sunday's up close to the tree. So back to you girls in as the little Stevie. So what sort of how old? were you when you first started sort of that project? And what sort of things were you doing with that? So we started when I was 15. And I think Bill had just finished high school. And we, we basically just started applying for folk festivals around Victoria. And we were really lucky to get a couple of opportunities, doing those. And because we'd already started writing some songs, we really just, yeah, we started on the folk festival circuit for those years after that, and we just kind of learnt on the job, you know, which can be can be difficult when you're learning everything in front of an audience. And at that age to like you, I mean, not 15 Is not that old to be getting out there. And, you know, perhaps in a more adult sort of world as well. Yeah, look, it's um, you know, there's, there's so many different aspects to them, is it? I mean, it's, it's just, it's such a steep learning curve, when you are, how can I put this, we've never sort of been a group, you know, or sort of done music where we've just done it at home, in the privacy of our own space for years, and years and years. Before we go and perform it, or share it in front of an audience or with people, it's always been our rally song. Okay, well, I guess we better go and, you know, do something with it, you know, or not, and perform it. And that's, and that's when some of the embarrassing moments can happen when you're literally, you know, you're learning in front of an audience and in front of people. But gosh, you do some quick learning. And, yeah, I think sometimes if you if you spend too much time, just creating at home and sort of not sharing it, and you know, and it's hard to share it because you got to means you got to be vulnerable. And you know, you're putting yourself up for criticism. Yeah, sometimes, then you can sort of risk just never putting anything out and never showing anyone anything, and never been happy with anything as well. And then all of a sudden, so much time can pass. Anyway, so does that mean then you feel really comfortable on stage? Because, you know, literally anything could happen, anything could go wrong. And you're okay with that? Oh, no, I wouldn't say I'm okay with that. Okay. No, I like I know, I still get nervous all the time. And we still get nervous all the time. If, yeah, if there was a there was a video sort of videoing us when we get off stage every time Oh, my goodness, it would be just so embarrassing. Witnessing the conversations that we have, like, it's you know, I'll say isn't it's all literally let's just jump into just like talking about all the things that we you know, all the things we did wrong and all the mistakes that we made and oh, oh, what do you think they thought when we said this or did that and It'd be terrible if if, if people actually knew that, you know, the critique that we put ourselves through after we got off stage. But look I just mentioned i i just love performing. I love it so much. And Bill does too. So yeah, we just gotta get out there and do it. Hmm. So what aspects of performing Do you love the most when you say you really love it? What what do you look forward to? For a gig? Well, I love singing like I love the action of seeing the physical action of singing and it's you probably feel the same way or just it just makes you feel so joyous you know? It's a it really there's I don't know it's like exercising it just makes you feel incredible as endorphins go Yeah, you know mentally and physically so I think just that alone, I love the feeling that I get whilst doing it and after but I also love I love this is going to probably sound like I'm sort of I love the sort of validation or or positive affirmation and look, I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy that. I think everyone enjoys you know, getting positive feedback and but you know, we've been so If you go and someone comes up after a show or emails us and says, I've connected, or this, these lyrics that you wrote, have made me feel like this, or this has been my life experience, you have just summed that up so beautifully. You know, and they said something deeply personal about themselves, because they heard something that you've written like that is beyond special. And, you know, that's just, yeah, that makes you keep going. Because you're just like, wow, I don't I'm not sure. I think anything gets much better than this. Yeah, that is pretty awesome, isn't it? It's sort of I liken it to, it will never happen to me on this scale. But you know, when you're at the concerts and the famous people, they hold out the mic, and everyone knows the words, it's like that, yeah. Oh, you get it, you get me like, yeah, resonating with something that I'm putting out there. And that that is hugely validating? It's sort of, I mean, I know, we don't necessarily do our art for that reason. But it's a lovely, sort of side thing of that, that, that you're connecting with people, you know, and if you can't, yeah, you can reach somebody who might get so much out of what you're sharing like that, that example you gave. And it's so special, it is an awesome feeling. It is awesome. And, and we all know what it's like to have another person write a song. And for us to feel like there's just something up for us, and how special that is to be on the other side of things. Yeah, and there's so many people that I wish that I could say that to, you know, if I saw them in a physical sense that I just love to say, how much of an impact they've had on me. Which Yeah, now when I'm saying that loud, I should just do that more often. Through the wonders of social media, we actually have access to people we for I don't know, I used to write fan mail and post it off into the nether and you know, oh, that's so good. You remember the old Smash Hits magazine? Back? Yes. It was like, you know, they'd have their their fan mail address. And I'm swear, no one ever got those letters. But now you can literally just message someone and say, You're awesome. Yeah, it's pretty great, isn't it? Yeah. I really love that. This is totally off topic. But the other day, you know, Constantino, that magician? He's like, the grand illusion. Oh, yes. Yeah, he came to me at Gambia. And that was a big deal. Because we're just, you know, a little country town in the middle of Adelaide. And afterwards, because, you know, when you're, when you're in the know, you know, where the stage door is, and, you know, roughly how long people take to come out. So, my little, my little seven year old, he's a massive fan. He's got his books, you know, he's into him. And I said, Come on, let's wait till he comes out. And he's like, Oh, really, I said yet. It'll only be like half an hour. And it was only us and one other group of people were there. And he came out. And I said to him, I said, Because and Taylor said, what you're doing, you know, he writes books for kids with reading difficulties or ADHD dyslexia. Yeah, he went through that as a kid. And I said to him, thank you so much for what you're doing for the kids. Yeah. And he was so chuffed that did be had his book. You know, I think that meant that meant so much to him. You know, everyone loves his show, you know, he knows that everyone thinks he's amazing, but I think that connection with a child who was really into his stuff, and I made sure I told him because I'm like, This is great, like, yeah. Oh, that's great. I'm sure he appreciated that. And I can I can get a bit fangirl sometimes. And you will. It's hard to find the words though, isn't it? It is literally I don't know one day I met Kate soprano because my sister and I were this is really random store I don't know why I'm coming out with this. But we were at this corporate gig corporate event in on the Gold Coast for for plant nursery. And she just happened to be the the entertainment and so she was she called for people to come up sage singer backing track they didn't have the mics turned on so we were like off for God's sakes then we can sing we can sing proper backing but you know they had the microphone. And when I when I walked off I all I could say was I love you so much. It was just so embarrassed. I just love you so much and she's probably thinking God Who are these drunk women up on stage but anyway, I'm digressing now. These I don't go in my pants when I saw this this time you saying six or seven years ago you guys decided to do you change the direction And I'm really intrigued to know how you were received initially. And I don't want to I'm not comparing you to the wiggles at all, because you're completely different. The depth and the thought that goes into what you write and what you share is phenomenal. And so I'm just wondering, like, how, how it went down, as he would just ask that question, I was thinking to myself, Oh, my gosh, I wish I can maybe I recall. Sounds like a long time ago now. But look, I feel I feel as though probably for us, during the whole time that we've been doing music stuff. Sometimes, and often we have you know, we've we've written something, or we've taken a sort of decided that we take these kind of an approach. Yeah, we're even thinking to ourselves, Well, I'm not sure how this is gonna be received. But it feels right, it feels like the right thing to do. And she feels like the right thing to do for us. I think when we started, we definitely knew what we didn't want to do. And we had a pretty clear vision of what we did want to do what we didn't want to do. And we want to keep performing music alive, in pretty much the same capacity of what we're doing with the little Stevie's, which is really just a live band. Wearing what we would normally wear on stage, playing our instruments. But yeah, we weren't interested in doing anything else other than that. And yeah, there was there was probably a lot of questions around though I don't know, if that's going to necessarily been engaging enough. Or so there was a bit of, there was definitely some trial and error for sure. I think one of the first gigs that we did, as a team timings was at a festival, it was a festival slot. And, you know, we kind of like even scripted a bit of dialogue in between the songs, and, and sort of tried to, like, you know, order the songs to tell a bit of a story. And after we came on stage, that time we were, it was very obvious. We're just like, oh, no, this is not, this is not what we want to do. But this didn't work. And it was, unfortunately, you have to live through some things like that, to really realize what you don't want to do, and what's not going to work. So there was a bit of that in the first instance. And also, when the first few songs that we wrote, you know, having really young kids to try them on, as well was extremely valuable. You know, Bill's eldest child at the time was three, and we started with a toilet training song. And the rainbow song, they were one of the two of the first songs that we wrote. And they'll really taken very well and received very well by him. So, so then that gives you confidence to keep going. So yeah, having that immediate feedback from kids was really valuable. And it just sort of developed from there to be honest. Green roughly being beans, celery and apples, spinach, peas and lettuce, I. I am on my way. I mean, you've written to my favorite ones that the I'm the boss of mind, body, that's one that really gets stuck in my head. I really like that one. And you've written songs by song about COVID about staying home? Like do you basically look at what's happening? And what's important to you, and maybe look at your kids and see what's happening with them. And that's where your inspiration comes from? Yeah, has in the past the first three albums that we did useful, helpful, thoughtful songs, or little people, they were pretty much mostly, the ideas are sort of crowd sourced. So I mean, the first, the first, like the first step, and we came up with those things ourselves. And then the second two, we put a call out and we said to parents and educators and carers what, what what would be helpful to have songs written about, and they gave us lots of ideas, and people were really, really engaged with that, which was awesome. And lots of the same things started getting mentioned. So the ones that were repeatedly mentioned, were like, well, obviously, there's a huge need, and desire for a song about this. So then we just give it our best go at writing about that particular theme and, and I should sort of emphasize the fact that it's, yeah, it's the the lyrical process is a long process. And all the lyrics are very sort of, you know, scrutinized by by ourselves and so there's Yeah, it's not a it's not a quick job, the lyrics because you know, We also know that your lyrics are incredibly powerful and, and kids, in particular, listen to things on repeat. And again and again and again and again. You know, I'm an adult that listens to things on repeat to I got, I bought everyone around me with just watching their same movies and the same TV show that I, you know, I think for some people that gives a lot of comfort to, you know, repeatedly listen and watch and hear things. So, yeah, we're just we're just very much very aware of that. So we want to make sure that we put a lot of thought into them. Hmm, that's a really good point. Speaking of things being on repeat, I've had Hamilton the Hamilton musical only my car for about three years now. The other day, we finally saw the actual stage show. So that was nice. So now we've moved on to something else. But yeah, you had your flight? Yes, I've had the fix now. And it's funny because now I've seen the stage show that Australian actors do the nuances and the intervene to nation a slightly different and so now when I listened to the state the the I called Broadway, I'm like, Oh, that's not how it went. Jason era didn't do it like that. You know, everything. Yeah, the older days out. But I do that, too. I get fixated on things. Or the Beatles. I'm back on the Beatles now. Listen to this same album, but it never gets old. You just know it doesn't. They will never get out. Ever. Thank goodness. One male body, male body? I am. So with you guys with your singing with your harmonies and stuff, have you always just naturally like, I guess I'm comparing it to my sister and I like our voices is she's slightly lower than me and I go slightly higher, but in that general with both our toes, but I can go slightly up a bit. And so I've always just taken the higher harmony. Do you guys have like a? What's the word, a system or a method that works for you? I mean, I think when we were kids bill would always take the harmony just because she was always much better than me. I've been able to pitch in arrange harmonies, she's got a real real knack for it. But yeah, giving myself a bit of credit to as I've become an adult and also grown and developed, I think. Yeah, I think I think we're both pretty good at doing that now and and we both just, you know, take it into singing lead singing harmony. And it's really fun. Keeps it really interesting, huh? Do you guys have like, again, I'm comparing to myself like a sort of an invisible, like connection of communication when you're on stage, like, someone might move their eyebrow a little bit or look a certain way. And the other person goes, Oh, crap, that bit, you know, like you have this this way of communicating with each other without anyone really knowing. Yeah, I think so. Although, although, I've often told that I think that I'm smiling to my bandmates interview on stage. And then they go on stage saying that you're just looking at us like this the whole time. Like I've done something wrong. No, I was just smiling at you like I'm really having fun. So, so there is communication there. I'm not sure if we're really receiving the correct communication, but the other ones trying to communicate all the time. But we think we're communicating. But look, in terms of singing the actual, you know, the actual singing that we Yeah, we're, because we've been doing it for so long together. I think we're pretty good at predicting what the other one is going to do. And to be able to match each other and shadow each other and that type of thing. Yeah, yeah, I couldn't relate to that. It's like, sometimes when we've been performing like, we both start singing the tune or something. And for Amelie say it'll like literally a millisecond. And then it'll be like, Oh, she is in the hammock, like, and it's like, watching would ever get that we've just stuffed up. Yeah, but yeah, exactly. So quickly. And so intuitively. It's so much fun. I just like we did a wedding just the other week. And we hadn't been together for so long because of COVID. And just, I really pulled back from gigs, but we did this wedding and we're just sitting there. Obviously, it's so fun. You know, we've forgotten so lovely. And it was so great. Yeah, it was so lovely. It was a great was great fun. They had the the photo booth right next to us though, so it was like laughing and I'm like him as always on my left. I've got to have her in my left ear. I don't know why it's just a really, it's a quick that I have so I've tried to shut out this site and listen to her on so I'm sure why that's so nice that you said those things out loud. And you acknowledge the fact that it was really fun. Because it is. And I feel like I'm really guilty of not doing that enough. And I'm trying to do that a bit more. Over just yeah, really acknowledge and verbalize when something's really fun when you're really enjoying doing something with another person, so they know so they know that you're really enjoying this time that you're spending together. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. But that doesn't make it easy. Nothing says everything. starts again. So back on to your your children. How many kids do you have? So we've got two kids. We've got a four year old and a nine month old. Oh, little tracker. Yeah. So yes. Again, back to you. Your stories on Instagram. How hard is it really traveling with the kids? Like, there was a funny, funny, one of like, pushing the pram and there's things hanging off every single like, on the frame? And, you know, that is that literally the realities of going on tour with the kids? Oh, yeah, absolutely. And look, we, I wouldn't say that we it's it for our collective kids to come away with us. Because as we can all hopefully agree, it's so hard to work and parent at the same time. And when you're trying to do both at the same time, inevitably, something something somewhere, you don't do it as good a job as you could, if you're not doing the two at the same time. So, so yeah, it's this year, my baby has come away with this a lot, because she's been so young, hopefully into the future. That won't necessarily be their regular thing. But again, you know, each each, every few months, you know, we sort of need to look at things again. And say and sort of went through all the different commitments that have come up. Because, you know, all the touring commitments that we've had this year has been a lot more intense than previous years. So and our circumstances have changed again, you know, family wise. So yeah, it's just a constant juggle and a constant. Yeah, just renegotiation? Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because the children are always growing? Stages? Yeah, the needs are changing and what they what they're capable of, or what you're capable of doing with their mare. And, you know, yeah, it's always been, like constant reassessment. Yeah. Yeah. What I want to ask you about are not just on that for a change tab. So where have you Where have you been this year? So far? What what's you've been your sort of, I don't want to say your schedule, your tour schedule. You've been we have some places you've Oh, my gosh, we've been everywhere. We have been. We've been to most states this year already. And we're going and we're just continuing to do more over the next six, six to 12 months. So we've been all around New South Wales and Northern Territory went there for the first time this year, which was amazing. All around Victoria, South Australia. We're going all around Queensland, over January this year. So yeah, just just everywhere, and look, the nature of our music, because it's for kids and families. It's mostly weekend and school holiday work, where we do most of our touring. And look, because you know, my partner and I do very different things. So he has a weekday job, pretty standard office hours, and then I'm doing weekends and school holidays. That does work quite well. And I don't know, I just don't know how people who are working in the same industry. They manage exam time. Yeah. I mean, there's challenges to everybody. But that because I'm not living that. That experience. To me, that just seems huge. If you're competing for the same time. Yeah. Yeah, literally the same time to try and work. Yes, yeah. There'll be so many conflicts in schedules. And it's like, yeah, someone would have to have to sort of let things go, I guess at different times. It would be very challenging. Yeah, exactly. I have tripped up to some space. But human beings names they shall always leave to them. You're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I was singing away from my dreams with your songwriting process? Like, do you just pick up ideas here, there and everywhere? And then come together with your sister and just bang it out? Or do you often like come to each other with, like, with a half done song, like, how do you sort of work in that way, it's a bit of everything, we often, because we're now living in different places, the, we don't often sit in a room together, and just create something from scratch, it'll be one of us coming up with an idea, you know, maybe a nearly finished one, or maybe just the beginnings of something, and then we just send it to the other person, the other person has their time with it, I send it back. And then when it's goes back and forth a few times, and then when it's, you know, pretty much in its fully formed song, or, you know, or book or whatever the thing is, then we'll get together and we'll just knock out the last little bit and just rehearse it up. So suppose in a state that we can perform it or you know, get the Voice Memo recording out and just do a acoustic recording on our phone. Imagine if we lost our phones. And imagine if we lost all the voice memos thinkable. It is unthinkable. And it's also think of all because it's like, how I don't it's like I barely know how to backup my computer, or what's on my phone onto my computer. So just Just don't be lost. Oh, what a disaster that would be. Oh, man, I was talking to a I had on my podcast the other day. It's not out yet. It will be seen. I recorded an episode. That's what I was meant to say, with as a songwriter. And we were joking about how you could be anywhere doing anything, and you'll get an idea. And until you've written that down or recorded that idea, you just cannot relax, like you're just in this state of, I'm going to forget it. I quickly have to do something with this. And you'd like she was joking. She's got all these little voice recordings if you're going in and new stuff. And then you listen to it later. And you've got to try and make sense of what your idea. Oh, I know. And to anyone else. Oh my gosh, it would be so embarrassing for someone else to just start listening to them all, online. All of mine start with this a standard tuning Capo one, five. This is what tuning Capo on blah. And it's just so it's just so boring to listen to. Do you ever wake up in the morning and have something in your head? No, no, that's never happened to me. A lot of people but no, not to me. I actually I love talking to musicians because I love it. I love it. Everybody has these, you know, all the different ways that they write or the different ways they get used. I just find it so fascinating. It's just fun. All right, well, I'll stop indulging myself. Yeah. That's great. I love I love hearing all of this, all of this stuff that you do yourself, too. It's so very interesting. It's so much fun. Love it, it is fun. And you know, on that, it's like when it stops being fun, then maybe that's, you know, that's usually the time that you got to change something, isn't it? Or maybe time to stop doing something and then start something else. Yeah, because, yeah, you definitely want there always to be an aspect of fun for that, and that's the thing, like when I said to my son, you know, you've got to you've got to do this every day. You don't want to literally wake up every morning and just go Oh god this again, you know, you want to be energized by what you do. And and if you're passionate about something, you know, if it's your your music or whatever you're doing that you're you're sharing that with people you know, I sort of feel like you've got this thing in you that you've managed to make into something and then sharing it with people is just the icing on the cake you know like she can wait to me she can't lie to me. I know some families back on to you being a mom. I like to talk to moms about the concept of their identity. So You know, you've always been a musician, singer songwriter doing your thing. When you became a mum? Did you? Did you really want to hold on to that part of your life? Did you feel like that was important? You weren't going to just go? Now my mom not going to do anything else? I'm just going to be mom. I mean, totally, I think, I think whether we care to admit it or not, we're all changed immensely when you have accused because your whole world changes. And that maybe I shouldn't assume that everyone's the same. But But yeah, for me, absolutely. I mean, your whole identity sort of changes. I mean, you know, in the first instance, all of a sudden, you go from being this independent person, who really, you know, if you've got a partner, and you know, you are thinking about him, to a degree and kind of do I mean, but you're still kind of two individuals. You know, doing life together, but there's still so much of that, that is separate and individual and independent from each other. But then when kids come on the scene, like, yeah, their needs, then it have to come first. And so, and that can be really hard to swallow. In terms of, you know, I really, there are still things that we all want to do. So fulfill us and to fulfill our own needs. And just sometimes, yeah, and often, you just can't do that. So yeah, definitely. And also just, you know, all the sort of the biggest sort of society, the society, sorry, societal things, you know, of becoming a mom and, and some things to do with gender as well, all of this stuff changes, you know, sometimes, and you can often work out how you feel about it, or actually work out what's going on at the time, but it doesn't feel right. And it can take some time to sort of explore those things and work out where you are, and how it's affecting you and what it is what it actually is to be able to verbalize what the thing is. I'm not sure if any of that made sense. Gosh, it is. Yes. And that's where I was leading you to because I look, I've spoken to a few members on this show. I've got to be careful how I ask questions, because I assume that everybody feels sometimes feels the same way that I did. And I've spoken to some mums who have just gone. No, I just went, I'm going to be mum, that's great. And I just went, that wasn't me. Yeah. You know, and so I've got to be careful how I don't want to ask leading questions. But I did lead you into that, because I had a feeling you'd say that. Yeah, well, I mean, I, yeah, gosh, the idea of? No, I definitely, I'd say definitely the person, a type of person who likes to have a good balance of both. I'm just happy, I'm just a happier person, if I'm also doing unstuff. Otherwise, I just get too cranky. Allison, too cranky. And I don't I don't like listening to myself. I can totally relate to that. I think I'm just a happy presence for everyone. If and it's funny, like, you know, both my partner and I, we acknowledge that and and say those things out loud. And it really has to be like, Okay, we have to we have to let each other do these things that we want to need to do to various degrees so that when we're when we're coming back and interacting with the rest of the family, you know, we're out of the we're close to the best versions of ourselves. Absolutely otherwise said that. Otherwise, there's too much resentment. Hey, that can just simmer up very quickly. Yeah, that's the word that I can definitely relate to is that resentment is just Yeah, and I'm not saying that in a negative like, God, I feel like I've got to justify everything I say now. But you know, I love my children. I love being a mom. But I also love doing things that I love to do that don't involve my children, you know? Oh, definitely. And that's, there shouldn't be any shame in saying. No, exactly. And here's the thing, right? We feel we feel guilty saying anything like that. Of course we love our kids. Yeah, of course. We love them. I love mine. Immensely. When I'm not with them. I miss them. And then when I'm too often, they can drive me absolutely nuts. Yep. I mean, and then yeah, and then I feel guilty about that. And then it's just crazy. And then and then you can't fully enjoy the time when you're away from them. Because you have all these feelings too. And then, you know, and then yeah, you're missing them a little bit. You're like, What is wrong with me? is wrong. It is just this perpetual thing isn't it's like we cannot escape it. Whether we're with them or without them. There's some element of guilt that We feel it's just, ah, it's horrible. I know it's huge. And yeah, you start to then see your own parents in a different light to realize that, oh, they probably felt all of these things, too. Yeah. Maybe I should have been more kind to them. You get new appreciation? Yeah, maybe I should be less judgmental of my parents. It is it is an interesting science lesson. But it's an interesting experience to be an old to be older and have your own children and look back on your parents with so much compassion. You think my God, you know, that what? You know, I don't know. I think we're so hard on ourselves. And everyone's just doing the best that they can with what they've got at the time. And yeah, you know, give me a break. Absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Yeah, cuz Yeah, mom guilt is something that I do like to chat to all my moms about. And I have had two people in this last week was the 78th episode that went out to mums. Wow, that have said they don't know what it is. They had to google it. And I was like, Yes, this should be all of us. We should not even have this word, you know? Yeah. And I feel like, you know, a lot of the people I talk to sort of share the view that, that it's this, the it's the external judgment, and the external societal norms or expectations placed upon us and making us feel this way, you know, if we just mothered the way we wanted to, and didn't feel this pressure, we wouldn't feel guilty because we'd be doing what we wanted with you. No, no. No, external helps. It helps to move your arms does help. You know, you know me. Ah, yeah. And social media. I think it's just been, it's got a lot a lot to answer for when it comes to this judgment of each other and things like that. It's yeah, totally. I mean, yeah. I mean, there's so many great things and so many bad things, that social media, it's to have it, it's a hard, hard balance to get a feel. With social media. Yeah. Because most of the mums I speak to are on there for you know, their art sharing their work, or, you know, they're for business. So yeah, you sort of feel like you've got to be on there. But then it's interesting to the last few people I've spoken to have been really had some, you know, the great advice, which should be obvious, but sometimes when other people say things, you notice it more than if you thought it yourself, but you know, only following people that make you feel good. You constantly see someone come up and they they trigger something in you don't keep looking at them. I know. It's such a simple thing. But yeah, so simple and so obvious. But why do we Why do we find ourselves doing it? I don't know. Yeah, it's a funny, funny world. Imagination tell me they're under my bed when worries come in and like wave rushing up to my, my superpower. It's essential that you have your support network in whatever way that you need that support. I'm sure that support comes in different forms for each individual and each family and each household. But, yeah, I mean, personally, I certainly feel very appreciative. And I was I was thinking in the car the other day and thinking how I would say this, and answer this question. If it came up with going, I don't think I feel lucky. I feel nervous using the word lucky because I feel like the insinuation is that I've had nothing to do with it. You know, if I say I feel lucky to have a partner that I do, I feel very appreciative. Because we certainly, I think we're doing okay, and again, ebbs and flows, I think we're going doing all right, you know, so far of trying to let each other you know, flourish kind of professionally and sort of try and really strive for those things that we want to do outside of having kids and parenting, which is so important. I think if I felt like I was just battling, you know, against someone or really trying to fight for time, all the time, and vice versa. That's not conducive to being creative at all. So yeah, that's really important. And I think everyone needs to be on the same team to make it work. So this year, for example, you know, we've had a baby at the beginning of the year. Everyone has needed to be on board for for it to be successful. You know, so and that's, you know, partner, SR manager, you know, all the people who are involved in the team, to be on board to make that work and to be happy to make that work. And, and for that to be successful. So, yeah, that's, that was the thought that I had driving for hours yesterday in the car. Yeah. And I think it to being able to ask for what you want and make your needs clear that this is not going to work for me, or this is what I need to make myself comfortable here like not being afraid to speak, speak up, I suppose. Definitely. And yes, to be really clear about those expectations that you have of each other, and, and to have those high standards of each other. I think, you know, to have those high standards, and to have those, you know, a level of expectation, and also to communicate the expectations that you have of each other as well, because, gosh, if we, if we assume too much, we're generally wrong, or incorrect in our assumptions that we make. So we may as well just talk about it and clear it all out from the get go. So everyone's on the same page. Yeah, that's a really good point. Because I feel like, as much as you know, you, you're obviously, you know, we're attracted to our partners for a particular reason. That's great. We love them. But those people are still different to us. And I feel like, I know what I do is, you know, for example, in a situation, I'd do something this way, and I can't assume that my partner would do that. I've got to go, actually, what would you do? I've got to ask him stuff. Because I've learned over the years, we're very different in certain areas. And there's and when you assume you make an asset of you and me, so yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Third, ask Allison. Yeah. Yeah, I can play. Yeah, exactly. I agree. I think it's, it's just yeah, it's just so beneficial to just be really clear about what you want. You might not get what you want. Where you stand and ask for something. They won't be surprised because they know that's where you're hitting with things. And there's nothing up for interpretation. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. No mixed messages. Yeah, I had Adam Paige who's a South Australian. He's from Adelaide. He's a musician. And he said, when they had kids, he had to set like, literally have the conversation. This is what I need. From my music. This is what I need from this man. I should say also, that was Father's Day episode. Yes. Yes. Sorry. randomly say there's been a man on my show. That's a bit. Oh, no, I mean, it sounds great. I will get through all 70 episodes. Wow. Very impressive. You said you're up to the 70th episode. My goodness. It's a huge achievement look, honestly, I'm gonna say it again. It's just good fun. I just love doing it. I love talking to moms I love you know, chatting about stuff and sharing stuff and and I love the beat afterwards where you edit and stuff. I love doing that. So it's you know, it's a win win. That's great. Okay, doing at least peppers, strawberries, beets, rhubarb, and berries. Green, green, green. broccoli, beans, celery and apples. Spinach. Peas and lettuce. What do you got coming up the rest of the year? You said you you're still you still touring? Are you? Are you ever coming to mount Gambia? Just Well, I'm, I've got you. Gosh, I don't know, we probably will at some stage. But I can't for the life of me. Recall all of the places that we're going because there's too many. Which is actually awesome. I actually love that. That's always been a dream, you know, to just be able to to so much. But look what's coming up. I mean, we're about to we are we've, we've got so we've always got so many things on the go, which is great. We've got more books coming out. We've been very fortunate to be able to start writing and publishing some books, which is sort of based and expanded on from our songs. Obviously more touring. We've got some new music coming out towards the end of the year in preparation for Christmas time. And, yeah, I'm trying to think Is there is there anything else there's just there's just always stuff. There's always projects, and that's what I love. And, and that's yeah, that's the thing that we're hooked on. We just you just got to keep making projects for yourself, don't you? Because if you don't do it, if you don't initiate them yourselves, no one else is gonna initiate them for you. So funny I was in. I was in the shower yesterday. I get so many I don't know about you. But when I'm in the shower, it's like a portal opens up and I think of everything ever in the world. It's this Yasha thing. I'm in the shower and I'm thinking oh my god He's, I don't want to do this. And once he did, and then I got out the shower and went, Oh, but first I have to go make some school lunches and back to reality. Yeah, I'm gonna do all those jobs that actually make the day sort of just run successfully and smoothly. Oh, it was it was it was like one of those moments where it was just like a slap on the face like, yeah, you'd have to actually look after your children. You shouldn't do right. All those things download just so you don't forget them. I do. I'm an intense note writer, like I have to write down so often. I'll just like record voice messages in my phone for later. Oh, great. Yeah. There's probably quite a lot I've never really listened to. But I think if you're writing all those things down, then you're one step closer to actually achieving them than someone who doesn't. It sort of just forget tangible doesn't it's like yeah, actually, it's on a list. So it means it's, you're gonna keep thinking about it and keep, you know, well, it's all part of just making yourself accountable in a way. Yeah, it's the first step really? Yeah. Yep. Not the boss and many things. I'm just little and still learning. But I am the boss one thing. I'm not the boss of anyone else. I gotta let them be themselves. But I am the boss of one. Look, thank you so much for coming on, Beth. It's just so lovely to meet you and to chat with you. Everything keep doing what you're doing, because I think what you guys bring to the space is really important. And it does open up conversations, which is obviously that's your aim, and you're doing it beautifully. So thank you and say hi to your sister for me tell her I love her on it. I will it never gets old. Her hearing that people actually find what she does funny. If she could just mention a couple more times, you know, playing at the Opera House, that'd be good. I'm not sure if everyone's got the memo yet. I know it's too funny, isn't it? And hopefully, hopefully we do get to neck Gambia at some time or somewhere you know, you know somewhere close will if you do you know I'll be stalking you at the stage door. Oh yeah, I love that. Absolutely love that and funny. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage dotnet forward slash podcast

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Louise Agnew Australian photographer S2 Ep41 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Louise Agnew is a photographer based in Millicent, SA mother of 3 children. Louise came to photography professionally 10 years ago after a career in psychology and social work, after the urge for a creative outlet took over. Louise loves capturing the relationship between mothers and their children, and is a champion of encouraging mums to get out from behind the cameras and into the photos! Her candid style and genuine relationships forged with her clients has made Louise a local favourite, cemented by the many community collaborations she takes on. Today we chat about how Louise was able to make a big shift in her mindset and identity around mothering, body image and the media and the high value she places on having a therapist you can talk to. You'll also hear some chatter with her 8 month old son George :) **This discussion contains mentions of mental health issues** Connect with Louise - website / instagram Connect with the Podcast - website / instagram We also mention : Mamma Matters Dr Sophie Brock Music used in this episode is done so with permission from Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who were artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast he's done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me today. My guest on the podcast is Louise Agnew. The Waze is a photographer based in Millicent South Australia and a mum of three children. Louise came to photography professionally 10 years ago, after a career in psychology and social work, after the urge for a creative outlet just took over. Louise loves capturing the relationship between mothers and their children, and is a champion of encouraging moms to get out from behind the cameras and into the photos. Her candid style and genuine relationships forged with her clients has made Louise a local favorite, cemented by the many community collaborations she takes on. Today we chat about how Louise was able to make a big shift in her mindset, and her identity around mothering body image and the media and the high value she places on having a therapist she can chat to. You'll also hear some chatter with her seven month old son George. This discussion contains mentions of mental health issues. Thanks so much for coming on today. Louise. It's such a pleasure to have you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, so you're well I shouldn't say you from Gambia. You're in Millicent, aren't you? Yes, I did. I grew up in that Gambia moved away, went to uni. And then didn't think I'd ever moved back but met a local tantan oh boy in Adelaide, and we moved back lived in them out for I don't even know how long, eight years, 10 years or something. And then we only just moved to Millicent about six months ago, maybe? Yeah. Six to 12 months ago. I've lost my marbles. Were very good. So you're a photographer? Can you tell us a little bit a bit about sort of how you got started and the sort of style of photography that you like to do? Yep. So I've been shooting for probably over 10 years now, professionally, but it probably started well. I mean, I've always sort of was the person with a camera in their hand. My whole life pretty much. I've always enjoyed it. But basically, yeah, so I went to uni, studied psychology, and then went on and did my masters in social work. So I was working in that field, and absolutely love the work I did, but then also needed that creative outlet as well, which is where I was doing my photography. And eventually, it sort of took over or didn't take over. But I had to share my time across two jobs, basically. And one of them had to give so yeah, I went with the photography. Yeah. So do you do all styles of photography like weddings and portraits and so I used to do weddings. And then if we're talking about being a mother, once I had children, it became quite difficult for me. I would have people wanting to book two years in advance, and I did you know, in that baby making phase of my life and I thought I want to cancel on people. And then I did take on a last minute request for a wedding. After I had my firstborn Rosie and I think I don't know how old she was somewhere between six and 12 months. But I was still breastfeeding and said I can do it but you'll have to be okay with because she wouldn't take a bottle. Mom had to drive her out to this wedding and it was 40 something degrees. She was sitting in the car waiting for a fee. The wedding was running late. And I went out and feta and I I thought Nope, this is like I loved the work. But it just wasn't. It's not the time of my life at the moment. So I'm still not doing weddings. So my main focus is families and businesses. And I really love to capture motherhood, actually, which. Yeah, I think that passion sort of began has begun since becoming a mum myself. Yeah. Do you think a bit of that I noticed, obviously, follow you on Instagram? There's this sort of, you seem to have a sort of push for the mums to make sure they're in the photos to that it's sort of Yes. Seem to be always the ones taking the photos, but they're not. Absolutely. And I think we always have these excuses for all the reasons that we shouldn't be in the photographs, you know, like, I need to lose more weight, or we will, that's the biggest one. But you know, there's always something behind the reason that you Oh, wait till this child is older, or we might have another child, so we should wait until that child's born. You know, it's it's that classic, self sacrificial thing that mothers do. Yeah. Thinking that they don't deserve to be in photographs. But I know when I look back at photographs of myself, you know, four years ago with Rosie and I was a very different look at that stage in my life. You know, I don't hate those photographs. I'm so glad to see. I mean, my favorite thing to capture is that connection that mums have with their children. And that's what I think I look back on and reflect on when I looked at the photos of myself. Not judging. Not judging myself. Yeah. Yeah. easy thing to do at the time, I think but it's more about having that history record of how things were when the kids were tiny or, or bigger. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And maybe it's so hard to to get past that initial. Oh, geez, look at me in that photo. Oh, you know, stuff. It's like, look, look past that and see, see it for what it is, it's a mother with their child and they have a great relationship different. It's a great memory to have. Yeah, it is and I think to these days, because nine times out of 10 The reason that we're in a photograph is because we've taken a selfie with our children not an actual stand over there and capture and so the way that we perceive ourselves with filters and then having such control over how you can make yourself look on an iPhone with your reverse camera on shooting a selfie. It can be confronting sometimes to see so if for how the whole world sees you know, yeah, when you lose that control, don't have the filter you know, overhead angles. Yeah, that's it looks looks good for me. Yeah, yeah. That's my classic one. Whenever people take photos make sure you're ever beaten highest. The way you like to show is quite candid. Then you like to capture people just in the moment. Do you do a lot of outdoor or studio? What's your sort of main preference? Mostly outdoor. I really love shooting in the golden hour. Either early in the morning or late at night late at night tends to be the guy and often people freak out and think Oh, my kids are gonna you know, they're not really good. But I think I love that wildness of children. I don't want them to sit there like little statues being you know. Yeah, I don't that studio style is probably not my thing so much. I mean, some there's a time and place for it. You know when I'm taking headshots or newborns are a bit different because you don't want the kids being wild around a newborn too much. So, but at the moment since moving to Milton, I don't actually have a studio anymore. So I'm definitely yeah, definitely not a studio at the moment. Yeah, I don't really have this new obsession with film and the nostalgia that I don't know. I recently borrowed a camera from another photographer and shot some film on there. And I don't know I just Yeah, I love that. That's probably my current feel. I think in my images, that nostalgic feel. Yeah, right. And does that then mean that you basically what you shoot is what you get like it's not. Can you study match? Yeah, I just sent my first roll off the other day. So it could be a disaster because you initial feedback. I've no idea reminds me of my wedding I had mine was shot on film. And it was like, it just feels like the olden days when, like, yeah. I was taking a photo of Rosie and she was like, Can I see it? And I was like, No, you can't, like not till we finish this role, send it off. Like there's a real, I think current generation don't know how to wait. And I'm guilty of that too. Not just not just kids. We want everything now. It's like, No, you have to wait for something magic in that, I think. Yeah, it's like, it's like when you go out as a teenager, and I'm not sure there's might be a bit of age difference between you and I but you take your little pin taxi out to shadows and then have to wait to see. Like, yeah, no, I will cameras out. Yeah. And then you think oh, what is going to come back on this field or this farm system and judge me? You've briefly mentioned your children a little bit. Can you tell us more about your children? How many others that you have for Rosie? Yes. So yeah, so Rosie is nearly five. She's just started Primary School. Patrick, or as we call him, Patti. He doesn't even really know that. His name's Patrick. He is two and a half. And George is seven months. Yeah. nearly eight months. Yep. So he's the new the new section. He's the newest and the final addition to kids, his two kids, but three kids is 20 or something. And it's very true. The scales for us. Oh, goodness. So you use your children a lot as your inspiration I guess in your work? Yeah, I do. Yeah. If I want to try something new, or you know, I'll often take one of the kids out and, you know, play around with white or? Yeah, a new style of editing or whatever it might be. Yeah. And they're bright. I was gonna say Do they enjoy that? Like with Rosie asking if she gets tired, obviously used to. Yeah, the feedback. And I do respect them. Like if they don't want to, then I won't. Yeah, and I always ask, but because my style was very candid, too. Sometimes they might just be out running under the sprinkler or you know, just not doing anything. And yeah, they love seeing them. Love seeing the photos that I've taken afterwards. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. So with with the three Now you mentioned not being able to your weddings, how does it sort of work? I mean, I guess you're still on maternity leave with George. But how's it worked with the other children going back to work, but trying to fit that in some? It's interesting. So I have gone back to work now officially. GEORGE We start childcare in about two months, which breaks my heart the other two didn't start to though 14 months. But I burnt myself to a crisp both times thinking that I could work around their naps and you know, which is what I'm doing at the moment basically, but I'm only taking out a very light workload. But yeah, Paddy goes to childcare and roses at school. So that's how I make it work. I shoot like I've mentioned before, during the golden hour so often that's when Tom time so he'll have the kids then so nine times out of 10 I try and shoot when Tom's home and edit when they're napping or in care. Yeah, yep. So you mentioned just then about it breaks your heart do you? Do you feel that sort of the psyche guild but that pool of Oh no, my child's going to talk here. So I can do what is that? Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I know you've you talk a bit about guilt in lots of your episodes. I do feel guilty. It's not a guilt. I feel guilty because I know I don't know. I don't know if To give that a feel for sending him to childcare, because I don't have a choice. So I know that it's something that I have to do. And I want to do like, I think sometimes saying that we feel guilty is our way of making ourselves feel like we're a better mother because oh, we can't possibly do something for ourselves and then have this like, you know, does that make us a bad mum for wanting to go back to work or for wanting time for ourselves? Well, no, it doesn't. That's okay. We're people in our in our own right. We should have time separate from our children. Yeah, so it's more that I feel guilty. Because the other two got more time before they went to childcare, I think. But I know, again, putting myself first that I will fall apart if I try and do it all again, this time. So yeah, so lots of work on since the other two on what it means to be a good mum. And I don't know if you've read much into the good enough mother. There's a sociologist that I follow on Instagram, Dr. Sophie Brock, do you follow her? No, haven't seen her. Yet, br o CK. Rodeo making? Yeah. And she, her whole thesis is based on motherhood and what it means to be the ideal mother. Yeah. And basically, she breaks down. But that's really a myth that we are all good mothers and having time to ourselves. And you know, we all we're not the perfect mother. That's what she calls it. That it's that that perfect mother thing is this thing that we are constantly striving to be but it just doesn't work like that. No one's perfect. And yeah. You have to listen to her because I'm not very good at explaining it. Oh, no, that's fine. Oh, definitely does talk about that guilt, Mother guilt, and that it's a cycle. In she says that we need to shift our guilt to ambivalence, basically. And saying, you know, it's okay, that I that I want to go and do something for myself or be, you know, we need to have that time away creatively and, you know, whatever it might be that you want to do to perform better as parents. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. That is honestly that's, that's awesome. I'm definitely gonna get on to that lady. Now. She has a podcast too, actually. Yeah cool. Because you've got your background in your psychology and social work as that. I don't want to say it's been easy because Nothing's ever easy. But is that been? You've been able to sort of understand it in a way that most other people probably couldn't? Because you do have that education and training? I guess, the motherhood guilt thing. Yeah. You're able to sort of quantify it a bit differently. I think so I am still obsessed with learning. Anything psychology based. And neuro sciences like was one of my favorite things to work with. When I was working as a therapist. I think sometimes it can be hinderance as well, because I do read too much sometimes. And yeah, but then when, when I'm in one of those wraps, then I'll also be able to come back to Okay. Yeah. This is Paul to constantly be this perfect mother, I think and sometimes we know too much. And then we think oh, I've yelled at the kids too much today or you know, I'm not doing things how I should be doing them. That should yeah, we constantly throw in there. I should be doing this. I shouldn't be doing that. I shouldn't be doing this. Yeah, so I think there's positives because I feel well educated but also sometimes it's there is a thing about knowing too much. Yeah, that sort of ties into the concept of identity about how you sort of see yourself as a person, I suppose. And you said before that, you know, we're people in our own right. Even though we're a mother, we're still our own person. Is that something really important to you? It is, but it's taken me a long time to get to that point. After I had Rosie, I was very self sacrificial, and literally put everything and everyone before myself. And was doing that, again, after I had Patty as well. And probably I can, when he was about six months old, I just started to, I saw someone that's close to me, taking time for herself. And I remember initially thinking, how can she do that? Like, how can she go to the gym for like, an hour, every, however many days, whatever it was a week, I remember really thinking that that I couldn't understand. I just, I didn't judge it. But I could not understand how you could do that. And then I started doing it myself. And I was like, Oh, my God, I can't believe I wasn't doing this. I am a better mother for it. I'm, it just changed me as a person that changed me as a mother. And, of course, you can spend an hour a day, if that's what you choose to go and move your body and, you know, help yourself like, Yeah, it's funny how you can stand on the other side of the room and think something's impossible until you start doing it yourself. And then think, Oh, this is actually how you should be living. Yeah, yeah, I know, I'll notice if I haven't, because I like to try and go for a walk every day. And maybe this is perceived as a little bit self sacrificial, but I try and go before everyone wakes up. But um, but still, I know that there's a chance that they might not and it's something that I do for myself. And it just makes me such. Yeah. In such a good mindset. And, yeah. It has taken me a while to get there. Yeah. Oh, good on you. Good on you for feeling that way. It's awesome. Yeah. But of course, there's still guilt for everything else. It's like a never ending thing, isn't it for? Yeah. But that's so true. Like we all whether you're a mother or father, or just in a relationship with our children, everybody needs to have something just for them. That separate, separate every thing else and everyone else, I think it's Sorry. It's so hard to do like you, you're hitting the nail on the head. They're like, it's, you're just, you can see other people do it. But you can't quite make sense of it, how it's going to maybe work for you or how you can let yourself do it, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. No, yeah, he's so important. It's definitely a common theme. Like, we want to be able to do it, because we know it's important. But then it's like, or, you know, that all those little things target you to challenge you, I guess. And I find, it's really great. I think as a mom, it's really great for the dad to have that time. Because I know that I mean, maybe not all moms do it. But we're very good at saying I'll, I'll do that that's okay. Or I will just, you know, and how do we let dads have a chance to, to parent if we're stepping in over the top all the time. So it does give them that space? I think which is nice. Yeah. One on One and yeah, absolutely. It's like yeah, like that relationship for them is really important. You know for but yeah, it's for the child and the TED so yeah, absolutely yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom, my mom, I. So you mentioned before you've got your husband as your support. Did you have any any other sort of role models? Maybe within your circle? photography industry of how to juggle it how to manage having the children and doing your work, or was it just something get through on your own. I have had actually been meeting up with a psychologist since having George, I've had a couple of sessions. And she's helped me so much with this, because that was the reason for my referral. I was feeling overwhelmed. And I basically said, I have to it's teach me over having three. My ability to juggle everything like I was like, I don't know how to have to do the shopping, the washing the groceries, you know? Yeah. And fit in work and fit in me and fit in the time with the kids and you know, and not park them in front of the TV. Yeah, very overwhelming. Yeah, so she, she's been really, really great. And just having someone there to say it's okay for you to do something for you. Sometimes you just need to hear it from someone outside your circle, I think. Yeah, that's so true. Yeah. But yeah, one of my best mates is also a social worker. And she's a very strong advocate for for mums. And yeah, she's great to talk to about all of this stuff. I probably lean on her too much sometimes. On Instagram, Mama matters is her. Handle. Yes. You follow him? Yes, I do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she's up in the Gold Coast. Yeah, so she gets the occasional phone call or Mike. Oh, what have I done? I'm terrible mother. Oh. Yeah, she talks me down. She's like, too hard on yourself. Come on. We need we do need that I don't we'd like someone just to sort of, to give us that confidence that it is okay. What we're feeling is normal, how we behave, it's normal. There's nothing wrong with what we're doing. You know, you just need that little bit of reassurance. And you really do. Yeah. puts this thing up about once a week that says, like, you know, asks people to reply on her stories, and says, I'm still a good mom. And, and then you have to fill out the box. So it might be like, still a good mom. And my kids ate McDonald's for tea every night this weekend. Or, you know, and it shifts that, that feeling of guilt to ambivalence, and yeah, it's really wonderful. Yeah, to see it there, too. Like that they will be everyone's in the same boat. It just really normalizes. Yeah, that there is no golden mother, Mary, you know, whatever. Yeah, but you know, yeah, not you. It's like, there's no, there's no, there's no one that's doing it. Absolutely. right all the time. And I made a mistake. And it's balancing everything in their life. Amazingly. I remember when someone in my home was the lady that ran our mother's group, when I had my first child, she says, You're not a real mom until your babies rolled off the bed. Excellent. Um, definitely a real it's just no one's able to come in, like, Oh, I did this. And I've done that. And she's like, that's fine. That's what happens you shoulda never gonna remember. And they're never going to be harmed by that. But yeah, we've got we're so worried about how to do things. And, and, and even when I had my first there wasn't a massive social media like Facebook was around, but it only sort of just started. So it wasn't being used constantly. And there certainly wasn't Instagram. And so I didn't have that sort of sense of judgment. But then when I had my second, it was like, Oh, my God, like, just coming at you from every angle. And you're just yeah, really hard to block that out. And I did unfollowing of countless weren't really helping and a lot of falling ones. And yeah, it's interesting. I think the thing about social media is there has been that bounce back hasn't they're like, when it first sort of started getting bigger. You know, it would be this is the perfect body or this is the perfect x y Zed. And now there's, you know, lots of people saying well actually, you know, yeah, like this true and be beautiful, or you can No, no, no, the Yeah, you can pair it like this and or this is normal or this is okay. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You've just mentioned something that just reminded me and I haven't asked you if it's okay to talk about this or not. So it's up to you if you want to, but you're involved in. I want to support a campaign or project. Oh, yeah, I'd be out I'm sort of, how would you word it? What's what's the best way to describe it? If you want to? Really? Yeah, yeah. body positivity? Yeah. Yeah. Share with us how you got involved and what you did for that? Um, so Oh, actually, she wasn't I made a friend through doing. So, re Weatherall who also has a pod, well, she did have a podcast, it's not running anymore, she has another baby, as well. So she contacted me and said, I want to do something about you know, making women, you know, normalizing bodies. And, yeah, we sort of started talking and came up with this idea that I would, you know, photograph all types of women, whoever wanted to be involved, basically, and just sort of wanting to share that every single body is beautiful. And there's no ideal that we should be looking, you know, to, I mean, I do think that we should all try and be healthy, and we weren't sort of trying to promote. Yeah, it was more about look after yourself, and be happy with what you've got, you've got basically, I don't know how to, like that sort of self acceptance that you don't have to wait to love yourself to, like the perfect size, or what you think the perfect size is, you know, and that you can still, you know, be working on improving your body and love it at the same time. You don't have to wait, you know, to reach. Yeah, that that was really amazing. There was so many local women involved. And they received an incredible response, didn't it? It was really deeply amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And the girls who were in it, actually, I shouldn't say girls, one of the people who was in it doesn't identify as female. But all of the people that were involved in the shoot were just felt so liberated afterwards, and said that they just felt comfortable because only wearing their knickers. They just felt so comfortable. And if they just felt like that really celebrated their bodies, no one was standing there judging other people. It was just such an amazing energy. Yeah. And I think then outsiders were saying, you know, it was so amazing to see these people that they knew. Yeah, you don't see what's under people's clothes. Yeah. And to say there's a woman I follow, called birds, the birds of papaya or something. But she has this beautiful black. I don't know if if we call it beautiful, but her tummy postpartum tummy looks exactly like mine. And to see that, because through her clothes, and through Michael as you can't say that. It just makes you feel normal. And yeah, it's so nice to see that instead of this. Yeah. ripped body that people have to spend their entire life, you know, working towards and that's okay, if they want to do that. But that's not what everyone looks like. Yeah. And that's the thing. Like, they're certainly I'd say in the minority of, like, certainly people that I know. So it's sort of nice to realize that it's okay to have stretch marks on your belly after you've had children. Yeah, yeah. person I photographed who you know, is what people would idolize as you know, this perfect in what you call this inverted commas, body, but she's got lots of stretch marks and stuff, too. So you know, it's that. Yeah, there is no perfect buddy. Is there? Everybody's beautiful. That was Yeah, yep. Yes. Like enough of the sheet. Yeah. So how did you find that personally taking the photos for them? Was that? Was that a really fun experience for you? Or was that challenging for you to try and pump them up and help them feel? Okay, or were they already feeling like that sort of Jay came in feeling nervous. And once I took the boys off, everyone, yeah, it was really easy. It was just fun. Yeah. Really, really fun. Yeah. Yeah. That would have been nice. music pumping and we had a glass of champagne. And yeah, it was good. Yeah. That's so wonderful. And you had a photo as well, didn't you? You did a photo. Yeah. So we re and I photographed ourselves. And that was confronting, but also so liberating. Like I felt good. I felt good being able to share my normal buddy. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that. There's a lady I follow on Instagram. I can't think of her name now. But she says she has this saying about how to get a Beachbody. Put your bathers on like, that's a lot of money. Like, we don't have to write like I was I was involved in the fitness industry for many years instructing and coaching and I got really caught up in the whole culture of it. And then and all of a sudden, I started to see it for what it was and had this massive change because like you say, It's okay to be healthy. But then it was to the extreme it was to the detriment of everything else in your life, basically. And whenever I hear people say, you know, oh, it's only six weeks till Christmas, so, yeah, it's gonna be we're gonna get our legs ready for summer. And I'm just like, you know, just so cross. Yeah. Yeah. And it was interesting for me, like upstairs was hardcore. Everyone was looking themselves in the mirror had the light is like Lauren Jane gear, it was all very full on. And then, after I had my second child, I was approached to go back and do Aqua aqua aerobics downstairs. And it was the best thing I ever did. Because I met Eric. And I go grab me grab me. Otherwise, you'll just make that noise over your audio. Yeah. Go for it. Elijah, we love it. Look at that smile. Yeah, I was just say when when I went downstairs and met real people with real bodies and real issues. It was wonderful for me, I made some amazing friends. And I looked at the fitness in a whole different way. It was like, fitness to be able to live your life not fitness to be prance around. And sorry, I'm being rude. But it was just it was such a game changer. I think everybody that that's hardcore fitness should go and do an AquaClass and just be around people who, if they don't do this AquaClass they won't be able to walk like they've got. So you know, yeah, just do you think that was a really big mind shift for me when I did start because I was not in a good way. In my head. And physically. My health wasn't great. I wasn't looking after myself at all. And I started to eat better move my body. And my goal was just literally just to go for half an hour walk whatever pace I wanted, didn't have to flog myself sweating it out or jumping around or doing burpees like it was just, you know, getting back to the basics of how I should be looking after myself from the inside out. And that was the best thing it wasn't I need to look like, you know, I think that's terrible. But yeah, yeah, it's not about you know, yeah. Didn't need to look like Heidi Klum. I just needed to start looking at looking after my insides. And you know, if you are looking after yourself, doesn't matter what size you are. It does be mounted for you, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. That's it very general. Like it comes from within like, it's like you can see people are a fired up from within. It's just agenda changes everything about your life. It's just so amazing. So the whole family takes better. Yeah, yeah, my kids are happier and happier. And yeah, you should, you should put time aside for yourself because everyone benefits from it. A lot of people believe and I added to that, once you're a mother, then you're complete. So there's this idea, this idea that becoming a mother will solve everything. But then once you become a mother, you don't feel like you're doing that job well enough all of the time. So therefore, you're not complete. And you have to keep this cycle of Yeah, that was just a thought that popped in. Yeah, that's a really good point. It's like you think I'm gonna get married and have kids and then life will be amazing. And I won't have any problems anymore. It's like just yet. So new problems. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I once had a friend who thought that quitting her job, she hated her job. So her solution was to quit her job and have kids and that would make her happy. Ya know? Yeah. Yeah. It's ideal that you're working towards this thing, and that's when you reach the top but it just keeps getting higher and higher. That point doesn't keep shifting the way you thought it was. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's incredible. You. I feel that when I've been pregnant or postpartum in the early stages of postpartum, it does affect me and my ability to be creative. I think you do get exhausted in pregnancy and in those initial postpartum phases. And I feel like I go back to doing the standard, which is still beautiful, and I still enjoy what I do, but my ideas don't flow. And there's like this block. That happens in my head. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if other artists, other artists feel that way as well. Absolutely. Yeah. Because it's like, all of your energy is, goes towards keeping a child alive, basically, like you sort of yeah, you go to some sort of, what's the word? I'm thinking of? Like a primal, a primal behavior. And really, it stops the creativity part of your brain because you don't need that to keep a child alive. Yeah, you just need day to day action. So it's yeah, it's very, very common. Yeah, you're there you go. Very, very. Yeah. And then I almost feel like this veil gets lifted. Yeah. And then, yeah, my ability to create and think of new ideas and try different things. And yeah, almost new ideas come and new inspiration comes because I've just been through that. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like that's where I'm at at the moment, which is exciting. Yeah. It was a funny little chat. Not until I put myself first, you know, six months after Paddy was born, the part of the time, I feel like that's when my identity shifted from, I am a mother to I'm a mother, and I'm, you know, a photographer, and I'm someone who enjoys Pilates. And, yeah, it took me a long time to separate myself from just being a mom. And it was a really good place to get to. And then I think that helps to, maybe that is what aligns with that veil lifting postpartum, because you are separating yourself as from just being a mother. But, you know, it does have its merits with my work too, because I feel like I miss what I used to do before photography, like, you know, being a therapist, and I'm Miss having a newborn. So you know, getting to photograph newborn say I get to I feel like I get to have those really deep postpartum chats with mom sometimes and talk about breastfeeding because, you know, I'm very, like, pro a pro breastfeeding, I'm a pro. Trade is best, but I've been lucky to have been able to feed. So you know, giving mums advice if they want help with that, but then also being able to be creative. Like I feel like I'm very lucky that my job has led me you know, well, what I like to do creatively has become my job and I've been able to merge all those things in together. Yeah, that's so cool. Like you actually, basically um, create relationships with your clients is slow. Yes. You're not going there clicking the button. It's actually yeah. You know. Yeah. And I really think that's such an important part, you know, in? Well, I feel like that has a massive part in the success of my work because people feel comfortable with you. And you're going to get well, for my style of photography going to get those shots that you're looking for. Yeah, people are just being themselves, they feel that they can be themselves be at ease connect with the people that they love. Yeah, it's good. Oh, that's good on. Yeah. A lot of work, and you're reaping the benefits of that. So well done. Yeah, that's good. Yes. No. Do you feel very lucky? Yeah. There are a lot of times where I think what am I doing? Yeah. Yeah. Hence the psychologist that I mentioned. Yeah. And, you know, that's something important to mention, too. I think like, I personally see my psychologist and keep on top of my mental health. And I think it's something that's really common and really important, and people don't need to be afraid to seek help. From outside. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a huge stigma. I think that if you, if you see a shrink, there must be something severely wrong with you. And well, it can just be a healthy part of, you know, keeping, you know, just like drinking enough water or whatever, you know. Yeah, absolutely. It's either as part of a healthy lifestyle, looking after yourself mentally. You know, you're going for your walk. You know, healthy eating. It's just part of the whole holistic. Looking after. Yeah. Yeah. I think that stigma, I don't know if he's getting. He's getting less but definitely, as the generations roll through. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. All right. Oh, let you go and have fun with that little man. Yes, he's getting busy using your intuitive, aren't you? Right? Is he on the move? Is he easy all over? He's up rocking on his knees, but not moving at all. I really want to, you know, hope that he will have achieved before he starts childcare, I'd like him to be crawling, no, darlin, God. And as time went on that to Trump is at the bottom. Want to ask you, if you've got anything coming up that you want to share? Like, I'm not sure if that's, you know, applicable? If you've got any projects, or you know, well, we do have one, I think happening in the later stages of the we haven't met about it yet. But it's gonna be more directed at mental health. Yeah. And I'm really excited, I think because of my background as well. I'm not sure what it's going to look like yet, or anything like that. But yeah, well, that's it, you have to watch this space. Oh, for sure. So you really do enjoy getting involved with other sort of like minded people in your community, there might not be photographers, but it's like, you'd like to collaborate and create. I do that with people. But it's very hard to find that balance, too. Because it does take up a lot of time. And it's not paid work. You know, that's just creative work. So balancing, you know, taking on enough work to pay the bills, and then doing enough creatively and then having enough time as mom that you know, all the things we just talked about. Yeah, it's not an all the time thing. Yeah. But it's you've got to have those those different outlets to I suppose to satisfy your creative you personally what you want to create as well. Like he wants to have a chat to you, don't ya? Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show. Noise I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum